I was interested in this post from AVForums in the UK. I haven't spotted any posts on AVS re this side by side and wondered if anyone else had attended a similar event.

According to the poster this was a demo by an NYC dealer and not at CES . I just wondered how they got hold of a JVC without it prompting feedback on AVS ?????

I have requested the name of the dealer from the OP.

http://www.avforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=457600

Just back fron U.S. and was able to demo both units side by side and calibrated. The JVC was very good for the price and I dont think it would dissapoint in any real major way, the image was a bit soft though. Using the same sources (HD-DVD, Blu-ray, PC and Sat) for both. The D80 was, however, a very obvious step up in class in terms of sharpness and detail and overall realism and depth.Also the best scaling and deinterlacing(if needed) i have seen native to a PJ. Colours were perfection. There was an HT5000 as well and although it was better again it was not by much, not close to the jump between the JVC and the D80. There were 16 of us at the 2 hour demo and all saw the same differences.Hope this is of interest.

Couple of quick replys

1) NYC dealer demo, NOT at CES
2) No one noticed ant RBE at any point but that may just be lucky/unlucky.
3) @ 100IRE they quoted above white and Below black on HDMI and Comp

One thing that really stood out was the variable aspect ratios and scaling. Stretching an HD-DVD to fill a 16:9 and scaling horizontally to restore the geometry, the image still looked HD -DVD quality. There was to be a "Scope" lens display but there was an issue with the sled so we couldnt see it.

Dazzer

The demo must have focussed on med to high apl scenes because at lower APL scenes, I don't see how a native 4k:1 projector could compete with a 12k to 15k:1 projector like the RS1. I certainly do not doubt that the Sim was sharper though based upon native strengths of dlp.

The shadow detail on the D80 is certainly some of the best I have seen from a single chip, so I can believe it would beat the RS1 as it seems to beat most other projectors.

EDIT: I could see slight RBE on the D80 but only on Sin City, text etc.

It does seem strange that JVC would have had a demo PJ floating around in NY and the JVC folks who post here would not have said anything about it when they know that many of us are so eager to see it.

I dont know much about the SIM2s but I wouldnt disbelieve that the Sharp 20k or the Marantz VP11S1 could/would look better than the RS1 in well lit scenes. I doubt the difference in those scenes would be anywhere near as dramatic as the difference would be in the darker scenes, though, where, like Thunder, I would think that the 12-15,000 to 1 native CR should show a major difference.

Thunder... Re 4k v 12k...so what. I saw the best picture i have ever seen in my life last week and the CR was only 2800 and lamp life was 1000hr.

Thunder... Re 4k v 12k...so what. I saw the best picture i have ever seen in my life last week and the CR was only 2800 and lamp life was 1000hr.

Affects quality at lower APL scenes, there is no way around it. At mid to high APL scenes, it's not as much of a factor.

Maybe it wasn't an RS1 but he thought it was. I would be surprised if this guy had an RS1 especially on display for a head-on when there aren't any available elsewhere but CES thus far.

Maybe it wasn't an RS1 but he thought it was. I would be surprised if this guy had an RS1 especially on display for a head-on when there aren't any available elsewhere but CES thus far.

I bet it was something else as well. Hard to believe an RS1 would be doing shoot outs in NY at this point in time.

Where did you see it, coldmachine?

Maybe someone else who is interested in the NY area can check it out.

also worth noting were test patterns. A pure white image was not near totally consistent and with a black screen the corners were very washed out. As i said very good for the money but still very much a budget machine.

Black screen uniformity is excellent, as is white field. I've got it setup next to a pearl and a ruby at present. Convergence near perfect, needed a minor adjustment in the convergence menu (what a novelty to have that option!)

Should also add it is significantly blacker with a 0 IRE image, this is with the Sony in low lamp mode as well as the JVC, JVC has 3 hours, pearl about 200.

Running Kong in HD at the moment and it looks significantly sharper than the 2 sony's

Very strange that your observations are so different from everyone elses who has seen, or is demoing/RS1s/HD1s. Elliot has one he is demoing and he seems to think quite highly of it.

Either you saw something different (not an RS1 .. dont some of the other JVC pjs have a similar body style?) or its a crapshoot on quality. If it is the latter, why the hell would JVC turn loose a ****** demo unit? Just doesnt make sense.

Didnt see something different it was an RS1. Maybe it was a quality issue or maybe just seeing it with better machines made it look poorer than it was. As i said, exellent machine for the money. Just not the be all and end all that some people seem to think. So many seem willing to buy without trying it. Caveat Emptor

So many seem willing to buy without trying it

Too true.

A lot of the people who have commented favorably (which is the vast majority of those who have commented) have seen most of the other PJs you have mentioned. Tryg can be pretty anal and finicky about PQ and brightness. Cine4home, for enother, has reviews up on both the Mits PJ and preliminary reviews on the RS1/HD1 up on their site.

While their review of the Mits was mostly favorable, their findings on the JVC pj almost seem to leave them astounded.

The thing about buying it from Jason/Tryg/AVS is that you can buy with confidence because you can always return it if it has issues.

A lot of the people at CES, and other shows, have had the luxury of being able to see the RS1, while maybe not alongside, relative to other top quality PJs .. like the Sharp 20k and Marantz VP11s1, among others.

Like I said, just doesnt make sense .. but not everything always does. Sometimes you just have to make a leap of faith. 8)

Thunder... Re 4k v 12k...so what. I saw the best picture i have ever seen in my life last week and the CR was only 2800 and lamp life was 1000hr.

Strange !! a 4000:1 projector beats a true 11:000:1-15:000:1 contrast proki with blacklevel and contrast. I just can't believe this. It's like saying a Ford escort is faster than a Porsche Turbo....
Sure the D80 is a good projector, ( Sharper like the most 1 chip DLP ) but with 4000:1 it can't beat the JVC .. PERIOD !!!!!!
Maybe Cine4home had a D80 for there HD1 preview, and they mixed the Labels

Didnt see something different it was an RS1.
So to follow up on Catdaddy67's question, where in NYC did you see it? I will be in The City on Thursday and would love to check it out!

So to follow up on Catdaddy67's question, where in NYC did you see it? I will be in The City on Thursday and would love to check it out!


Maybe Tom Stites could clear up what dealer had a JVC pre production unit in NYC over the past week or so ?


Dazzer

someone has an agenda here
remember, this is only about $$ and since this is still a niche market which we, on AVSforum are quite representative, it can be easy to curb the pre-success of a machine... via different means

Didnt see something different it was an RS1. Maybe it was a quality issue or maybe just seeing it with better machines made it look poorer than it was. As i said, exellent machine for the money. Just not the be all and end all that some people seem to think. So many seem willing to buy without trying it. Caveat Emptor

Hi Coldmachine

Why so reluctant to provide details of the NYC dealer ?

AVI

I live in NY. I would love to see the projector. Where is it?

Strange !! a 4000:1 projector beats a true 11:000:1-15:000:1 contrast proki with blacklevel and contrast. I just can't believe this. It's like saying a Ford escort is faster than a Porsche Turbo....
Sure the D80 is a good projector, ( Sharper like the most 1 chip DLP ) but with 4000:1 it can't beat the JVC .. PERIOD !!!!!!
Maybe Cine4home had a D80 for there HD1 preview, and they mixed the Labels


LMAO!!! That is the funniest thing I've read today!

Yeah, there's NO WAY that this guy had an RS1 at the SAME time CES did..

I mean come on, even Jason couldn't get his hands on one & I BET he has more than 50 units on pre-order if not closer to 100 and this guy in New York that will maybe sell 5 units in total already has one?..yeah ok.

So to follow up on Catdaddy67's question, where in NYC did you see it? I will be in The City on Thursday and would love to check it out!


You'll probably be waiting for that answer until March.

Sure the D80 is a good projector, ( Sharper like the most 1 chip DLP ) but with 4000:1 it can't beat the JVC .. PERIODThis statement would be true if only
- on/off contrast were the ONLY measurement of performance
- if improvements in on/off contrast weren't meaningful only in some scenes and largely irrelevant in others
- if the diminishing returns of visible improvement weren't much smaller above 4000:1 than they were above 2000:1

The hysteria over this yet-to-be-released projector is becoming a little much to take.

LMAO!!! That is the funniest thing I've read today!

Yeah, there's NO WAY that this guy had an RS1 at the SAME time CES did..

I mean come on, even Jason couldn't get his hands on one & I BET he has more than 50 units on pre-order if not closer to 100 and this guy in New York that will maybe sell 5 units in total already has one?..yeah ok.

good point

I don't make a habit of calling anyone a liar without facts but I think we need more information here before we give this post any serious consideration. Getting the dealers name would be a good start.

Chris,

You'll probably be waiting for that answer until March.

A safe bet...very safe.

You might get an answer, but I doubt very seriously it will be verifiable.

Cheers,

Chris,



A safe bet...very safe.

You might get an answer, but I doubt very seriously it will be verifiable.

Cheers,

Good enough for me - thanks for chiming in Tom...

This statement would be true if only
- on/off contrast were the ONLY measurement of performance
- if improvements in on/off contrast weren't meaningful only in some scenes and largely irrelevant in others
- if the diminishing returns of visible improvement weren't much smaller above 4000:1 than they were above 2000:1



Tom, Where do you stand on the answers to these questions, especially the last one? It would be interesting to know. Thanks.

Thunder... Re 4k v 12k...so what. I saw the best picture i have ever seen in my life last week and the CR was only 2800 and lamp life was 1000hr.

Do you have a photo showing that the JVC is a RS1 and not a HD10K? They look fairly similar.

The RS1 clearly had more depth in dark scenes than a Sharp 20K at the Expo and this was with a pre-production sample which by all accounts has been improved upon by actual production units.

It seems all kinds of incredible contrast ratios are being thrown about. Once you get to a certain number isn't everything else relative. Can you really see a great difference between 6,500 contrast and 10,000. Aren't companies making up their own numbers without any official guidlines or industrial standards. That means 6,500 for one company may be better than a exaggerated 10,000. Thanks Greg

In two separate forums (this thread and the thread linked in the op's first post from the AVForum), this guy has posted these observations, and in both forums, when questions started being asked about where this demo allegedly took place, etc, he quit posting and has yet to provide a response to same.

Also, while he was still online earlier today, I sent him a PM requesting the same information, and it went unanswered.

At the risk of being Captain Obvious, I think it's safe to say his observations regarding the RS1 are suspect at best....

see !

Greg Y: so far professional reviewers we know (France and Germany) clocked the RS1 on/off from 13000:1 up to 18000:1 . they also measured the Pearl and came also to
conclusions similar to Sony specs (sort of)

It seems all kinds of incredible contrast ratios are being thrown about. Once you get to a certain number isn't everything else relative. Can you really see a great difference between 6,500 contrast and 10,000. Aren't companies making up their own numbers without any official guidlines or industrial standards. That means 6,500 for one company may be better than a exaggerated 10,000. Thanks Greg

The number that JVC uses is the number at d65. Cine4home IDed that the PJs max contrast and lumens are actually greater - 800+ lumens, 18,000 contrast ratio.

While you probably could not easily notice the difference between 6,500 to 10,000 to 1 CR in a bright and colorful scene, like people are saying in the lower APL scenes, or in the darker scenes you can.

Assuming that you could get two projectors to show an equal level of black. Equally as dark, for the blackest pixels, the whitest white .. like in a starfield scene from Star Wars .. will be 65% as bright on the 6500 CR pj as it would be on the 10000 CR pj.

Inversely, though I dont know if it follows the same proportions, for the same level of white/brightness for the whites pixels, the blacks on the 6500 CR PJ will look like more greyish relative to the 10,000 CR pj.

Again, while that might not be so much of a difference in colorful bright scenes, as the bright colors will seem to make the greying blacks appear darker anyways, but in scenes from movies like Underworld, or in dark/evening scenes, the difference of detail and shades of grey and black should be very noticeable.

Look at Tryg's screenshots of the RS1 and the pearl. The white corpse bride title against the black background. I know that the pearl and RS1 werent properly calibrated, and more than likely that same scene could look better than it showed on a pearl but you arent gonna get anywhere near that level of black, without sacrificing lots of detail. I know, I used to own a Ruby - which I loved and is an awesome PJ in its own right. 8)

I am not 100% certain of the accuracy of the numbers/percentages (as I am not Darin or lovingdvd or wm or as knowledgable as many others in here) but I believe that is a fair representation of why a pj with substantially higher native CR would look much better on low APL scenes.

If you havent been to Cine4home's web page, you should. Its the most informative web site that I have seen for understanding about PJs and display technology. www.cine4home.com

Check out "know how" for refreshers/education and then look at the preliminary reviews on the HD1/RS1. Very informative.