We have been waiting for four years for prices to come down, and feel now may be the time to buy. We can sit 9 feet or 18 feet away from our living room set, and about similar distances for a set for the master bedroom. Would a 50" be best or would we have to go up to a 60"? If we got 60" sets, would we ALWAYS have to sit 18 feet away?

I've been researching online, and it seem that the following plasmas may provide highest quality video (and audio ?). We'd also like a set that is easy to use, and has split screen... so my husband can watch two games at once (of course... :-)
.
So far it looks like Panasonic or Pioneer. These are some of the models that look good Panasonic TH-50PX60U or the same model in 58" or 60" and the Pioneer PDP-5070HD or maybe bite the bullet and go up to the Elite series, and even to the PRO-FHD1 a 60" (with the higher HD resolution).

I'm willing to spend some bucks to put together a pretty spiffy home entertainment center, because it'll probably be the last TV/DVD/?? we buy, because we keep things until they die! Would you believe we are still watching a 20 year old Sony 21"?

I'm hoping someone can help us make choices that will give us an up-to-date system that will last, including all the peripherals one might want to include. We're obivously newbies who've been living in the dark tube days for YEARS!

Unless you've been "lurking" here a long time I'd suggest getting to know this Forum a little better and wait until this summer when the latest series of PDPs, announced last week at CES 2007, become available. You can't go wrong with either Panasonic or Pioneer and the only thing better than a 50" display is a 60" PDP. Good luck.

Unless you've been "lurking" here a long time I'd suggest getting to know this Forum a little better and wait until this summer when the latest series of PDPs, announced last week at CES 2007, become available. You can't go wrong with either Panasonic or Pioneer and the only thing better than a 50" display is a 60" PDP. Good luck.

Nah, dont wait. Why wait? Even if you do you'll just be tempted to wait longer...its a never-ending "wait" cycle.

Enjoy HD now...life is too short.

Both Panny and Pioneer are great brands. I feel Panny is a better value and made it my choice for this very reason. Pioneer reminds me of Sony sometimes.... good stuff but not worth the over-charge versus other top brands.

you can find the pio 5070 for low prices now-so the panny is not the better value-or the better tv-pio wins

I'm the original poster re trying to decide between the Panasonic and Pioneer. I was just at Costco, and saw they have "on sale" a Panasonic TH-50PX6U for $2199 through tomorrow. The one I have seen on the net is the TH-50PX6OU. Does anyone know what the difference is??? The price looks pretty good. They also have a 58" Panasonic TH-58PX60UC for $3799.99. Why the BIG jump in price, and...The 58" I saw online also differed. It's number was TH-58PX6OU (no C on the end)? HELP!! If I decide to buy from CostCo, am I getting a lesser TV than what I've seen on line?

We can sit 9 feet or 18 feet away from our living room set, and about similar distances for a set for the master bedroom. Would a 50" be best or would we have to go up to a 60"? If we got 60" sets, would we ALWAYS have to sit 18 feet away?


At your distances, I would definitely go with a 60". I sit about 8.5' from my 50" and I'm planning on upgrading to 65" in the future.

Given that you guys are coming from a 21" TV, the 60" plasma may seem way too big initially, but after a while, you'll get used to it and it may actually seem small.

18 feet away is too far for either 50" or 60". But, if that's how your seating area is, I would definitely not even bother w/ the 50".

We have been waiting for four years for prices to come down, and feel now may be the time to buy. We can sit 9 feet or 18 feet away from our living room set, and about similar distances for a set for the master bedroom. Would a 50" be best or would we have to go up to a 60"? If we got 60" sets, would we ALWAYS have to sit 18 feet away?

I've been researching online, and it seem that the following plasmas may provide highest quality video (and audio ?). We'd also like a set that is easy to use, and has split screen... so my husband can watch two games at once (of course... :-)
.
So far it looks like Panasonic or Pioneer. These are some of the models that look good Panasonic TH-50PX60U or the same model in 58" or 60" and the Pioneer PDP-5070HD or maybe bite the bullet and go up to the Elite series, and even to the PRO-FHD1 a 60" (with the higher HD resolution).

I'm willing to spend some bucks to put together a pretty spiffy home entertainment center, because it'll probably be the last TV/DVD/?? we buy, because we keep things until they die! Would you believe we are still watching a 20 year old Sony 21"?

I'm hoping someone can help us make choices that will give us an up-to-date system that will last, including all the peripherals one might want to include. We're obivously newbies who've been living in the dark tube days for YEARS!
If you are really going to keep it till it dies, then I suggest the following:

(1) Get at least a 60" display.
(2) Get a 1080p display - later this year
(3) Get a display that accepts a 1080p signal via HDMI 1.3
(4) Get a display that provides for 1:1 pixel mapping via HDMI and VGA
(5) Even consider, if available, a display supporting deep-color

Why this approach?

This, and only this, will provide a long term foundation that will allow future upgrading of the PQ without changing the display as processor technology evolves. At some time in the future, over the life of the display, you can then simply and economically add, for instance, an AV receiver or PC connection that contains an advanced high quality video procressing chip. At that later date, you would drive the display as a pure monitor using the new improved processing instead of the display's then older procesing.

Disk players and other components are just starting to come to market with these chips and that trend will evolve over the next decade.

We are finally on the verge of this componentization of a video system that will allow keeping the basic display glass and upgrading the electronics separately over time as needed.

Just food for thought.

Cheers, :)

Gary

I'm the original poster re trying to decide between the Panasonic and Pioneer. I was just at Costco, and saw they have "on sale" a Panasonic TH-50PX6U for $2199 through tomorrow. The one I have seen on the net is the TH-50PX6OU. Does anyone know what the difference is???

The TH-50PX6U seems to be sold mostly at Club Warehouses where as the TH-50PX6OU is sold at regular electronic stores. The difference in the two models are... the TH-50PX6U has a dark charcoal color trim around the screen where as the TH-PX506OU is black. TH-50PX6U doesn't have a Photo Viewer, SD Card Slot, and isn't CableCARD Ready. Where as the TH-50PX6OU have those options.

If you are really going to keep it till it dies, then I suggest the following:

(1) Get at least a 60" display.
(2) Get a 1080p display - later this year
(3) Get a display that accepts a 1080p signal via HDMI 1.3
(4) Get a display that provides for 1:1 pixel mapping via HDMI and VGA
(5) Even consider, if available, a display supporting deep-color

Why this approach?

This, and only this, will provide a long term foundation that will allow future upgrading of the PQ without changing the display as processor technology evolves. At some time in the future, over the life of the display, you can then simply and economically add, for instance, an AV receiver or PC connection that contains an advanced high quality video procressing chip. At that later date, you would drive the display as a pure monitor using the new improved processing instead of the display's then older procesing.

Disk players and other components are just starting to come to market with these chips and that trend will evolve over the next decade.

We are finally on the verge of this componentization of a video system that will allow keeping the basic display glass and upgrading the electronics separately over time as needed.

Just food for thought.

Cheers,

Gary

This is a great advice that I'll propably follow myself but I thought that the TV i purchased a few years back was future upgradable because I could just change the video card when a new technology came along. well they don't make video cards for my TV anymore. So I would not count on any TV to be future proof or even upgradable.

not supposed to talk prices here, but u realize bestbuy has no interest till 2010 and they will deff beat the price. my dad just got a samsung and they beat the price here in san diego by a couple hundred to make the sale...and offered him 60 day price match

New to the rules here, didn't know about the price thing. sorry....

This is a great advice that I'll propably follow myself but I thought that the TV i purchased a few years back was future upgradable because I could just change the video card when a new technology came along. well they don't make video cards for my TV anymore. So I would not count on any TV to be future proof or even upgradable.
While nothing is forever future proof, my suggestion above does not rely on any particular vendor let alone the maker of the display providing any upgrades. It allows any external component containing a video processor that supports HDMI 1.3 or is then backward compatable with that interface or a VGA interface to upgrade the PQ on the display without replacing the display itself.

I do agree that components relying on internal upgrades, such as cards, often are not in fact upgradable because the maker moves on and never provides upgrade cards. I am sorry to hear that happened to you.

Do look into the SI Reon chips and their capabilities. Samsung, Toshiba, and Dennon have already in the market or have announced products with these chips. Many more makers will use these and similar chips in the next few years. The de-interlacing, scaling, and noise reduction algorithms these chips provide are truly amazing.

Cheers, :)

Gary

Pioneer vs Panasonic Plasmas Panasonic PDPs provide very good performance and Pioneer PDPs are a wee bit better... of course, they cost more too.

I would reverse that optivity!

This, and only this, will provide a long term foundation that will allow future upgrading of the PQ without changing the display as processor technology evolves.

Well, the screen size is open for change I guess ;)

This is a good approach - I especially like the idea of keeping the display as a monitor, then upgrading around it.

Which particular models do you have in mind that will fulfill these requirements? The new Pio's & Panny's?

They also have a 58" Panasonic TH-58PX60UC for $3799.99. Why the BIG jump in price?

Although at first glance the 58" set doesn't sound much bigger than 50" (it's only 8", right?), in terms of picture area it's more than 30% bigger. That makes a huge differnce in impact, especially if you're sitting 18 ft away. IMO, the 58" Panasonic is the best deal for plasmas bigger than 50".

I have the 58PX600U, and really love it. I sit anywhere from 8 ft to 20 ft away.

Sorry, I'm not familiar with the Costco version. But traditionally Costco's sets are virtually the same as the standard Pannys, just a few minor differences so that they can set their own prices.

Well, the screen size is open for change I guess ;)

This is a good approach - I especially like the idea of keeping the display as a monitor, then upgrading around it.

Which particular models do you have in mind that will fulfill these requirements? The new Pio's & Panny's?
Thanks for the positive comments regarding the approach.

Your point about size is well taken. I see screen size, resolution, viewing distance, and desired viewing angle as a problem to be worked out. I personally want a large viewing angle. Either I sit very close to a smaller screen or a bit further back with a larger screen. Either way, resolution will limit me to how close I can sit for any given screen size and, therefore, limit my viewing angle. The assumption, of course, is that I sit back far enough to eliminate SDE from intruding into the PQ.

While I am sure that resolution will continue to evolve, it seems that 1080p will be a platau for at least a while. Still I can envision 1080p material scaled effectively to 2x that resolution. I also think that 1080p will allow displays in the range of 60-80" to look quite good from a close enough distances to give a satisfyingly wide viewing angle; as I recall, the 70" Qualia looked quite good from 7-8' or so.

I am still trying to learn more about hardware and just where certain logical processing functions are physically carried out along the signal path depending on the signal type and format. I think it is only with this information that I will be able to intelligently configure a system for optimal flexibility and PQ.

I believe that the drive component is integral with the glass component. I guess that if you supply a digital RGB signal to the display and achieve 1:1 mapping, the display will perform the least processing; converting the RGB signal via DACs in the drive component into voltages to drive the sub-pixels. I need to confirm this guess through a better and lower-level understanding of the signal path.

I think the above bypasses color decoding in the display (the signal is already RGB) and so any deep color support would be in the external processor although the drive component would need to be able to deal with the finer gradations of signal accompanying deep color decoding.

Alternatively, a fully processed signal except conversion to RGB could be sent on to the display and color decoded there.

As you can see, there is a lot to consider even if you want to use the display as a "monitor" as the monitor may still do some signal processing.

As far as your question about specific brands, the use of a display as a monitor does raise some interesting questions. That is why I went through my incomplete rambling about signal path above. Let me give you an example. I like NEC primarily because they have the best processing. But as a monitor, certain processing becomes irrelevant as it will be bypassed. So basic glass characteristics along with at least the drive electronics become more important and the color decoder too if you want the display to also perform that function.

Yes I like Pioneer, and NEC, for their single glass pane with a bonded, film, filter layer. It can make a noticable difference in PQ. I also like their variety of picture adjustments, but again some of these adjustments become moot, are bypassed, when the display is used as an RGB monitor.

So I would just love a 60" or better 70" 1080p "new-technology" (such as the announced Pioneer) plasma with rather full HDMI 1.3 support preferably including deep-color support if I were to still use its color decoder.

One more thought. If you take this approach, you need to decide up front whether the display will start out, for some years, as a full display and only years later be upgraded to monitor status via the addition of some improved external processing or whether it will begin life in your system as a monitor, perhaps with an AV receiver having an advanced video processing chip such as the SI Reon/Realta. If the former, then all the display's native processing capabilities remain important for the early years of its use. For now, that would be NEC but who knows what advances other makers will achieve in the next year or two.

Finally, perhaps makers will just incorporate these advanced processing chips directly into the displays obviating the need altogether for external video processing. In this case, an opposite approach is preferable. SDI players, providing a signal as close to that carried on disk and processed the least is sent to the display which performs ALL the processing.

Just more food for thought. It does surprise me somewhat though with all the discussions on this forum about displays and PQ that more attention is not given to signal path considerations and thus coordination among components along that path.

Cheers, :)

Gary

I would reverse that optivity!

I would agree but my eyes are watching to see if Pioneer can pull ahead now. ;)

Like....waaaaaaay ahead!:D

I would reverse that optivity!You mean to say that Panasonic is more expensive than Pioneer? :confused:

Like....waaaaaaay ahead!:D

Do you think the Super plasma will be released and affordable and available by Sept 22? :D

Thanks, itigap, for the very informative post!

Concerning resolution, I think you're right - 1080p represents a level, beyond which increased resolution doesn't really make sense, unless you want to sit really, really close to a cinema-sized display... You can even argue that 1080p is wasted on certain combinations of screen size and viewing distance, where it will be impossible for you to discern the difference.

Your thoughts about signal pathway are very interesting and relevant. It's really just like audio - if you mess up the signal along the way, it doesn't matter if you have the best speakers in the world, the sound will still be crappy.

I don't know enough about the details to provide any serious feedback, but won't there always be some kind of processing in the display?

Also, the way I look at things is that if a display looks really good today, then it'll also look really good in some years, even if it has been replaced many times by newer technology displays that look 'even better' :)

Go with the bigger display. Also, if ambient light isn't going to be an issue, don't discount some of the nicer rear projection TV's. My old roommate recently got a 61" 1080p Samsung rear projection.

I was really impressed by how good it looked, even though I still prefer my Panasonic 42" plasma.

I had previously been watching a 21" CRT. Pretty much anything would have been an amazing upgrade :-)

Concerning resolution, I think you're right - 1080p represents a level, beyond which increased resolution doesn't really make sense, unless you want to sit really, really close to a cinema-sized display... You can even argue that 1080p is wasted on certain combinations of screen size and viewing distance, where it will be impossible for you to discern the difference."If you are a videophile with a properly setup viewing room, you should definitely be able to notice the resolution enhancement that 1080p brings. However, if you are an average consumer with a plasma on the far wall of your family room, you are not likely to be sitting close enough to notice any advantage."

1080p Does Matter - Here’s When (Screen Size vs. Viewing Distance vs. Resolution) (http://www.carltonbale.com/blog/2006/11/1080p-does-matter/)

Thanks, itigap, for the very informative post!

Concerning resolution, I think you're right - 1080p represents a level, beyond which increased resolution doesn't really make sense, unless you want to sit really, really close to a cinema-sized display... You can even argue that 1080p is wasted on certain combinations of screen size and viewing distance, where it will be impossible for you to discern the difference.

Your thoughts about signal pathway are very interesting and relevant. It's really just like audio - if you mess up the signal along the way, it doesn't matter if you have the best speakers in the world, the sound will still be crappy.

I don't know enough about the details to provide any serious feedback, but won't there always be some kind of processing in the display?

Also, the way I look at things is that if a display looks really good today, then it'll also look really good in some years, even if it has been replaced many times by newer technology displays that look 'even better' :)
Killer,

I agree with you completely.

Yes 1080p is wasted for me on a 50” display at more than about 8’. But at that distance, a 50” display does not give me as wide an angle of view as I want. So for me, ultimately, a 1080p display, probably 60-70” will give me that “immersive” theater experience when I want to sit up close.

I come from an audiophile background and so considering the signal path seems natural.

You are correct in that there is always some signal processing in the display component. The processing I am most concerned with for PQ, however, can be performed elsewhere. It includes de-interlacing, scaling, and various forms of noise reduction. These are the processing functions that require very advanced algorithms and a humongous amount of processing cycles. The SI Realta chip, for instance, is a tera-flop chip.

The difference in results of performing these functions in basic ways vs sophisticated ways is quite apparent which is why stand alone external processors of this quality ran 70k a few years ago and with the recent breakthrough of the integrated SI chips still run 4-6k.

This is why I am so excited to see the light version of these chips and their associated algorithms being included in less expensive components. The Toshiba HD player is already out and reviews on the forum of its video performance with even SD content are outstanding.

But even excellent processing in one component can be mitigated if not ruined by redundant if inadvertent processing in another. That’s why I want to be able to carefully design and execute a signal path where I have control of and can simplify the processing.

As HDMI matures, it offers the prospect of simplifying the connections and reducing the number of conversions between digital and analog to a minimum, preferably just one. For the moment, I plan to separate the video and audio paths connecting sources directly to the display. Eventually it would be nice to run them together via HDMI from all sources to a receiver. The receiver would contain video calibrations for each source and provide complete and advanced video processing while also decoding and synchronizing the HD audio.

We are not quite there yet but this possibility is coming sooner than I thought.

Cheers, :)

Gary

No optivity, that Panasonics are better and that Pioneers are good and also cost more!

Thanks for the positive comments regarding the approach.

Your point about size is well taken. I see screen size, resolution, viewing distance, and desired viewing angle as a problem to be worked out. I personally want a large viewing angle. Either I sit very close to a smaller screen or a bit further back with a larger screen. Either way, resolution will limit me to how close I can sit for any given screen size and, therefore, limit my viewing angle. The assumption, of course, is that I sit back far enough to eliminate SDE from intruding into the PQ.

While I am sure that resolution will continue to evolve, it seems that 1080p will be a platau for at least a while. Still I can envision 1080p material scaled effectively to 2x that resolution. I also think that 1080p will allow displays in the range of 60-80" to look quite good from a close enough distances to give a satisfyingly wide viewing angle; as I recall, the 70" Qualia looked quite good from 7-8' or so.

I am still trying to learn more about hardware and just where certain logical processing functions are physically carried out along the signal path depending on the signal type and format. I think it is only with this information that I will be able to intelligently configure a system for optimal flexibility and PQ.

I believe that the drive component is integral with the glass component. I guess that if you supply a digital RGB signal to the display and achieve 1:1 mapping, the display will perform the least processing; converting the RGB signal via DACs in the drive component into voltages to drive the sub-pixels. I need to confirm this guess through a better and lower-level understanding of the signal path.

I think the above bypasses color decoding in the display (the signal is already RGB) and so any deep color support would be in the external processor although the drive component would need to be able to deal with the finer gradations of signal accompanying deep color decoding.

Alternatively, a fully processed signal except conversion to RGB could be sent on to the display and color decoded there.

As you can see, there is a lot to consider even if you want to use the display as a "monitor" as the monitor may still do some signal processing.

As far as your question about specific brands, the use of a display as a monitor does raise some interesting questions. That is why I went through my incomplete rambling about signal path above. Let me give you an example. I like NEC primarily because they have the best processing. But as a monitor, certain processing becomes irrelevant as it will be bypassed. So basic glass characteristics along with at least the drive electronics become more important and the color decoder too if you want the display to also perform that function.

Yes I like Pioneer, and NEC, for their single glass pane with a bonded, film, filter layer. It can make a noticable difference in PQ. I also like their variety of picture adjustments, but again some of these adjustments become moot, are bypassed, when the display is used as an RGB monitor.

So I would just love a 60" or better 70" 1080p "new-technology" (such as the announced Pioneer) plasma with rather full HDMI 1.3 support preferably including deep-color support if I were to still use its color decoder.

One more thought. If you take this approach, you need to decide up front whether the display will start out, for some years, as a full display and only years later be upgraded to monitor status via the addition of some improved external processing or whether it will begin life in your system as a monitor, perhaps with an AV receiver having an advanced video processing chip such as the SI Reon/Realta. If the former, then all the display's native processing capabilities remain important for the early years of its use. For now, that would be NEC but who knows what advances other makers will achieve in the next year or two.

Finally, perhaps makers will just incorporate these advanced processing chips directly into the displays obviating the need altogether for external video processing. In this case, an opposite approach is preferable. SDI players, providing a signal as close to that carried on disk and processed the least is sent to the display which performs ALL the processing.

Just more food for thought. It does surprise me somewhat though with all the discussions on this forum about displays and PQ that more attention is not given to signal path considerations and thus coordination among components along that path.

Cheers, :)

Gary
Thank you so much Gary for all your ideas. I am astounded at the intelligence and rationale that goes way beyond what I could of thought of. Killer and others also gave thouthtful and useful suggestions and things to think about. I have printed out your discussions, and will take them to a local "expert" to see how I might implement this strategy to truly give us a system that will serve us well for YEARS....I hope :-). One thing I think I've learned is that bigger is definitely bigger, so will try to talk my husband to going to a 60" minimum. Using the screen as a monitor is what Pioneer does with their PRO FMD1 set, the 1080 resolution model. You have to buy all the other parts...speakers, receiver, dvd, blu-ray, etc. etc.

Now I see why this may make sense for those of us who want to stay with it for several years. We went to the new Pioneer retail store in South Coast Plaza in Costa Mesa, CA yesterday, and I must admit, I was not blown away as much as I thought I would be by the pictures on their 50"Elite (PRO1140MD) and the 60" (PRO1540MD). Their 1080 res only comes in a 50" (PRO FMD-1). Wish it came in a '60.

I guess we'll now have to see if we can find a place with a good variety of Panasonic sets. Does Panasonic make the higher resolution HD sets yet?

Again, thank you all for your marvelous help and advice.

Margie

No optivity, that Panasonics are better and that Pioneers are good and also cost more!Most likely... I'll be in the market for another PDP next year when the interactive (two-way capable) TVs are released. At that point I'll give Pioneer & Panasonic serious consideration because IMO... everything else is garbage and anything better I can't afford.

I have printed out your discussions, and will take them to a local "expert" to see how I might implement this strategy to truly give us a system that will serve us well for YEARS....I hope :-). One thing I think I've learned is that bigger is definitely bigger, so will try to talk my husband to going to a 60" minimum. Using the screen as a monitor is what Pioneer does with their PRO FMD1 set, the 1080 resolution model. You have to buy all the other parts...speakers, receiver, dvd, blu-ray, etc. etc.

Now I see why this may make sense for those of us who want to stay with it for several years. We went to the new Pioneer retail store in South Coast Plaza in Costa Mesa, CA yesterday, and I must admit, I was not blown away as much as I thought I would be by the pictures on their 50"Elite (PRO1140MD) and the 60" (PRO1540MD). Their 1080 res only comes in a 50" (PRO FMD-1). Wish it came in a '60.

I guess we'll now have to see if we can find a place with a good variety of Panasonic sets. Does Panasonic make the higher resolution HD sets yet?

Again, thank you all for your marvelous help and advice.

Margie

Margie,

For your setup, I would definitely sit at 9 feet and you are right that bigger is better, so if price is not an issue, then go with 60".

At 9 feet with a 60" screen you will benefit from 1080p resolution (see the chart optivity links to above). This is a feature that is coming out big time this year in new models from e.g. Panasonic and Pioneer. So if you have the patience to wait ½-1 year with your purchase, then both of these brands will offer 60" (and 50") models with 1080p resolution.

Concerning audio, don't expect high-quality audio from a display - you'll get the best results by leaving the audio to a good quality A/V receiver hooked up to a good speaker set. My personal preference for A/V equipment is Denon but there are other good brands (e.g. Marantz, Kenwood, Pioneer etc.). Don't save on the speakers - they are a key component of a good A/V system. There are many good brands of speakers out there (I personally like B&W) - bring some music you know very well to the store and listen to different models before you buy.

You might also want a disc player to watch movies - Toshiba's HD-DVD is a good option at the moment, but as the HD-DVD / BlueRay issue is still ongoing you might want to hold off until good-quality combined players (that will read both formats) are available.

Hope this helps :)