I have a SVS sub (don't know the model, it's 2 12 inch woofers in a larger than life enclosure, it cost 1000 with shipping if I remember right) that I have been using for the past 2 and a half years, and it's fantastic for movies. It also sounds very good for music if I have it calibrated to match the other speakers....

However, I enjoy a little more bass so I like to run the sub around 5db hot for music. The problems is that sometimes in order to get the feel from the bass that I want I also get bloated sounding bass. Maybe what I want doesn't exist, I want punch and feel and I want it to be quick as hell. I've never heard a sub that does it like I would want it, so like I said I may be asking for the impossible.

Lately I've seen a lot of posts about sealed subs. I am wondering if they will give me the magic bass I've been looking for. Do I have to shell out 3 grand for the JL Audio to get it?

Keep in mind that I could still use the SVS for movies and another sub for music. I usually listen to music at around 85 db and never go above 95 db (and that's rare) in my 18x23x8 room that's fully enclosed with carpet over concrete.

Is there a sub that sounds puchy, quick and not boomy even though it is hot for music? I want that "hit in the chest" feeling that I've never had with my current sub when it comes to music.

BTW, music performance is infinitely more important to me than movies.

Do I have to shell out 3 grand for the JL Audio to get it?
You may want to keep an eye on this thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=776520) and see what kind of conclusion he has. Granted, it's only one opinion, but it's not often we get to see direct comparisons between DIY kits and commercial subs, so it should be interesting.

I have a DIY sub based on two of the same kits he's ordering. I'd like to say I'm a purist, and listen to everything perfectly matched "as intended", but the truth is, I run my sub hot too. :o To my ears, it continues to sound clean and tight even when run hot. This is in very stark contrast to my previous Sunfire, which sounded like crap when run too high. Turning it up just exaggerated the faults that I felt that sub had. That's going to be an exaggerated example, because the I think the Sunfire is poor in this area anyway. If SE-Raider's impressions mirror my own, then that may be something for you to consider, considering your goals.

Read the side of the box.

http://img406.imageshack.us/img406/408/svssa9.jpg

"Hit in the chest" feeling?



http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/mbm-12.html

Read the side of the box.

http://img406.imageshack.us/img406/408/svssa9.jpg

"Hit in the chest" feeling?



http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/mbm-12.html


That might be the way to go, especially for only $400.

Two VTF-3 MK 2 in stereo configuration will do it – movies OR music!!!

That might be the way to go, especially for only $400.

I am very impressed with the low frequencies on my SVS PB12-NSD. I love it but I do feel that I am missing a little of that upper bass,"hit you in the chest" type of bass, so I am pretty much sold on the MBM. Can't wait to get one and try it out.

Two VTF-3 MK 2 in stereo configuration will do it – movies OR music!!!

Vinyl, they're not ready for that! Don't hurt 'em! :-)

I can't wait until I can make that move one day.

Is there a sub that sounds puchy, quick and not boomy

Boomy is usually more a function of your room than which sub you have. Most untreated rooms have excessive ringing at many different bass frequencies, and that's probably your real problem. I have an SVS dual-12 and it is extremely tight and clear with all music. But I also have a large number of bass traps.

--Ethan

I confess to 20 acoustic panels and agree with Ethan.

Rockemsockem buddy…as you have privy to the real deal ;) once you arrive you’ll be in the upper echelon - at that time you'll be giggling when reading these sub forums :D

Thanks for all the ideas guys. The HSU bass module looks interesting, I'll be doing some research on that.

The though of using bass traps is intimidating to me. I'm not sure where to put them, how much they cost, if they wife would finally draw the line and not allow it etc.

To be clear, when the sub is calibrated correctly it doesn't sound boomy at all. It's just that I want some more bass when I listen to music.

Sometimes I wish I could go back to what I had back in college. I was using Cerwin Vegas with 15 inch woofers, the bass boost was on, the bass and treble knobs were maxed, I was using a graphic eq with the smiley face configuration :eek: , and damn the bass rattled me from head to toe with any type of music.

That all changed in 2000 when I did some research online for a good pair of headphones, bought some Grado's and realized that my system sounded like arse. I now have Axiom's all around could never go back to the way it was before, but there are times that I miss that feeling that the bass is going through me, and rattling my chest cavity and not the windows.

I agree that adding bass traps to the room would be the best place to start. Then, an eq if necessary. If something is still missing, upgrading the sub or adding something like the MBM would be warranted.

But without bass traps and perhaps an eq, you aren't hearing the sub at its fullest potential, and any sub upgrade wouldn't necessarily fix what's wrong.

Bass traps go in the corner, and can be DIYed, or purchased from places like Real Traps or GIK Acoustics at varying price levels. The Tri-Traps at gikacoustics.com are especially non-intrusive, and you could even build similar bass traps yourself with the right research, tools and materials.


EDIT: Even a few bass traps in my corners (2x 244 panels from GIK per corner - 4 panels for about $250) greatly improved the sound of the bass. Less ringing and boominess, something I didn't even know was there till I heard it with the panels and noticed it was gone. Lets you hear the notes and texture in the bass, rather than all that being masked over by room ringing. $250 should let you treat your 2 front corners with pre-made panels and greatly improve the sound. I added a BFD ($110 incl shipping) after that, and the Velodyne SMS-1 is a more expensive but much quicker and more intuitive eq solution.

Carp, here's a couple reasonable cost vendors for acoustic panels:
http://www.atsacoustics.com/
http://www.gikacoustics.com/

I have GIK Acoustics treatments in my room. 3 dedicated bass traps and 9 panels. The improvement is not at all subtle.


Tim

I agree that adding bass traps to the room would be the best place to start. Then, an eq if necessary. If something is still missing, upgrading the sub or adding something like the MBM would be warranted.

But without bass traps and perhaps an eq, you aren't hearing the sub at its fullest potential, and any sub upgrade wouldn't necessarily fix what's wrong.

Bass traps go in the corner, and can be DIYed, or purchased from places like Real Traps or GIK Acoustics at varying price levels. The Tri-Traps at gikacoustics.com are especially non-intrusive, and you could even build similar bass traps yourself with the right research, tools and materials.


EDIT: Even a few bass traps in my corners (2x 244 panels from GIK per corner - 4 panels for about $250) greatly improved the sound of the bass. Less ringing and boominess, something I didn't even know was there till I heard it with the panels and noticed it was gone. Lets you hear the notes and texture in the bass, rather than all that being masked over by room ringing. $250 should let you treat your 2 front corners with pre-made panels and greatly improve the sound. I added a BFD ($110 incl shipping) after that, and the Velodyne SMS-1 is a more expensive but much quicker and more intuitive eq solution.


I second this point by point.

Too many people are looking for a "magic wand" of product and ignore the basics.
Obtaining great bass is a not a "plug and play" scenario unfortunatelly, and basic level calibration is only the tip of the iceberg, much more needed in most cases.

Very off topic here, but how can anyone spend $1000+ on a subwoofer and not know what model sub they got?

I thought that was kind of funny myself.

Very off topic here, but how can anyone spend $1000+ on a subwoofer and not know what model sub they got?

Some ideas

1. He makes $250,000 per year, so the $1000 was not an issue.
2. He has a life.
3. He turned in his pocket protector after graduation.
4. it was easier to type "don't know the model, it's 2 12 inch woofers in a larger than life enclosure, it cost 1000 with shipping if I remember right" than the actual model #.

:D

Two and a half years is a long time. I research things quite heavily before I buy them, but after that some details are fogotten. I'm not sure if I could tell you with complete certainty the model# of anything in my rack without getting up and looking. I know the brand of each item, but after a couple years the numbers tend to run together.

Oh, and I apologize for my first post in this thread - for some reason I thought I was in the DIY forum when I posted. See, I can't even keep up with which forum I'm in. :o

Carp,

As soon as i read this post it seemed obvious what you need to do to acheive your goal.
Buy a BFD or other form of parametric eq and make some house curves, one for music and one for movies. The movie curve can have the low bass set up the way you want, and the music curve can have a low end rollof to give more emphasis to the midbass..say 60-140hz. These frequencies are the ones mostly responsible for the "Kick in the chest" feeling you seem to want more of. The "muddy bass" you hear, is either due to bad room resonances-which can be addressed with bass traps, and exessive output in the lower bass frequencies (<40hz) These low bass freqencies are seldom needed in music and can be attenuated to give that punchy feeling you want.
The third and unprobable possibility is that your SVS is underdampend, this is probably not the case as most well designed enclosures are dampened properly.

-My opinion-
Buy a BFD and get yourself a music house curve.

here's a link to a great read on house curves over at Home Theater Shack:
oh rats i have two posts.. not enough for links.. :(
Unhappy

you can find it at HT shack in the BFD and REW subforum. It is stuck in place at the top.
Hope this help you!

I have the same "sub-with-the-name-I-don't-remember-because-it-was-changed-a-few-times-but-it-has-2-12-inches-woofers-and-cost-about-1000".

I had a similar feeling to what you describe. I really like to "feel" the music, but I had to put the sub too hot which was bloating the overall sound quality.

What really did it for me was the addition of tactile transducers as recomended above.

I have the Crowson Tech and I am very please with the end result. I can run my sub more neutral and still have a great kick in the chest feeling.

Some ideas

1. He makes $250,000 per year, so the $1000 was not an issue.
2. He has a life.
3. He turned in his pocket protector after graduation.
4. it was easier to type "don't know the model, it's 2 12 inch woofers in a larger than life enclosure, it cost 1000 with shipping if I remember right" than the actual model #.

:D

You are telling me now after researching subs 8 hours a day, that I have no life?!?!?! :p

Brutalbodyshots and Jeffrey GTS, after 2 and a half years I can't remember plus I've noticed that SVS changed the names awhile back. I'm like Darin, I do a lot of research before the purchase but once I have it the specifics fade a bit. I can't tell you the exact model of my Mits tv, Panny dvd player, Panny receiver (hell, I just bought that one) either.

In defense of my memory, I did name all the superbowl contestants (winners and losers) since I've been watching - Raiders over the Eagles (80, 81 superbowl) - on a bet.yesterday.

Back to the topic, I've tried the bass shakers before and they were fun but after awhile I grew tired of it and it seemed like a gimmick. I'm thinking of getting the bass module from HSU and hoping since it is right behind me, I won't need bass traps. However, after doing some reading today about panels and bass traps that doesn't look as expensive and scary as I thought, so we'll see.

Two and a half years is a long time. I research things quite heavily before I buy them, but after that some details are fogotten. I'm not sure if I could tell you with complete certainty the model# of anything in my rack without getting up and looking. I know the brand of each item, but after a couple years the numbers tend to run together.

Oh, and I apologize for my first post in this thread - for some reason I thought I was in the DIY forum when I posted. See, I can't even keep up with which forum I'm in. :o

Okay Darin,
After 2.5 years, I guess we can cut you some slack. The scary thing is, I still remember the model# of the very first sub I purchased 10 years ago. Is there something wrong with me? :rolleyes:

Okay Darin,
After 2.5 years, I guess we can cut you some slack. The scary thing is, I still remember the model# of the very first sub I purchased 10 years ago. Is there something wrong with me? :rolleyes:

Never ask a question unless you want to know the answer (coming from a guy who purchased a pair of Electrovoice 16-B speakers in 1976) ... :eek:

Boomy is usually more a function of your room than which sub you have. Most untreated rooms have excessive ringing at many different bass frequencies, and that's probably your real problem. I have an SVS dual-12 and it is extremely tight and clear with all music. But I also have a large number of bass traps.

--Ethan

I'm with Ethan and Hifiger on this one. Get a Behringer Feedback Destroyer and eq the sub. I think it'll take that bloated sound out.

Ok, so to sum up my options:

1. HSU bass module (can't remember the model number..lol)
2. Bass Shakers
3. Bass Traps
4. Feedback Destroyer/parametric EQ

I've only tried one of them, so it's good to know that my solution could still be out there.

Ok, so to sum up my options:

1. HSU bass module (can't remember the model number..lol)
2. Bass Shakers
3. Bass Traps
4. Feedback Destroyer/parametric EQ

I've only tried one of them, so it's good to know that my solution could still be out there.
I think the best option would be to combine 1, 3 and 4. :) Although option 4 by itself can already make a huge difference.

Wrong order, I believe...
Bass traps should be first... you will very likely find out that the other things are not necessary if you first get your room 'right'. I have a BFD I don't need now because I didn't get the order right. With an existing room structure, sometimes its not possible to get it completely 'right' and in that case I might recommend THEN purchasing a BFD. In any case, do a frequency analysis of your room (REW is a popular free program) before you go any further.

A Velodyne DD seris will help. Set for max servo, set EQ curve with built in equalizer turn up the volume. Enjoy. I love nice tight base. I dislike boomy base. The velodyne fits the bill.

Ever since I got rid of my 12" 3 way AAL's from the 80's, I've missed that "punch in the chest" type of bass. I thought for sure my 4' tall RTi towers with dual 7" drivers would provide the same punch if I provided enough power. Nope. You know, there's just no substitute for a efficient, light 12" woofer in a sizable cabinet. I think HSU is reinventing the wheel without telling anyone their bookshelves and towers are incompentant for chest thumping bass.

In any case, do a frequency analysis of your room (REW is a popular free program) before you go any further.

What is an REW?

EdL

Ethan and Hifiger pounded the nail in this thread.

Bass traps and acoustic treatments are a must in any serious audiophile's listening room.

After that, something like Room EQ Wizard (REQW) will show you where problems still remain with the in-room FR and will also suggest PEQ settings for the BFD. There is a learning curve for both devices, but the guidance available at HTShack is outstanding, and so are the regulars there.

If you implement these changes and shoot for:

1) a flat in-room FR
2) keeping the sub calibration level equal to that of the mains
3) give your ears time to adjust to 1 & 2

I think you'll discover that both music and movies both sound fine and far more accurate that what you are currently experiencing.

Having adequate headroom reserves to cleanly capture bass transients without compression is not the same as running the subwoofer system hot. I recommend and preach the former, and discourage the latter.

Over the years I've experimented with several different combinations of house curves and warmer/cooler sub levels relative to the mains. And I keep coming back to a flat in-room FR with the sub and the mains/center at the same level.

Can an EQ help fix nulls in the room? Or is sub placement/room treatments more likely to fix nulls? I have some pretty serious nulls in the middle of my home theater room where there is almost no bass that I need to try to correct.

If it is a true null, then EQ can't fix it, though getting creative with the nearby frequencies can help to obscure it some. Downside is though that by doing so you're muddying up those other frequencies, so it's not the best solution.

Bass trapping can be quite effective with filling in nulls, while also evening out frequency response in general. Since the bass traps help to absorb spikes/peaks at various frequencies, they mitigate the collisions of frequency peaks which cause nulls to begin with.

Just think of it as what happens when you throw a few rocks into a pool. The waves from the first rock roll outward toward the edges of the pool, then they reflect back and collide with new waves from the second rock. The collisions cause some waves to sum in strength and get taller, while other collisions cancel each other out and cause dips.

Bass traps work to absorb the waves from that first rock so that they don't collide as forcefully with the waves from the second rock, hence yielding less and smaller collisions, less/smaller peaks, less/smaller nulls.


Tim

Can an EQ help fix nulls in the room? Or is sub placement/room treatments more likely to fix nulls? I have some pretty serious nulls in the middle of my home theater room where there is almost no bass that I need to try to correct.


"serious nulls" are placement and room-dimension issues. Can you move the couch a foot forward or backward? Bass traps can also help some. Lesser nulls, or just dips due to room dimensions, cancellations, etc. can be helped by bass traps, and to some extent by eq (ie., maybe it seems like a bigger dip because room gain boosts the other frequencies more).

Try to fix the room acoustics first, with bass traps. Then if you still need it, use the eq. Bass traps aren't only about frequency response. They absorb standing bass waves and really clean up the bass by getting rid of boominess and ringing. You can eq without bass traps, but it won't sound as good. I'd rather have a $700 sub with bass traps and a BFD than a $1000 sub with no treatments and no eq.

What is an REW?

EdL
Try going here (http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/)... go into the BFD/REW forum and read the 'stickys'... they should provide you with all the information you'll need and then some.

However, I'll caution you to try REW first to get a base line on what your problem areas are first and then begin adding room treatments for all frequencies in appropriate locations (first reflection points, parallel walls, etc)... next add bass traps... continue to analyze at each step along the way and make sure you do a FR analysis from each of your listening positions. If done correctly you might possibly have an acoustically perfect room (okay within reason)... however the actual room dimensions themselves may make this degree of 'perfection' impossible but at least you will know you're as close to it as your physical set-up allows. Once you've reached this point, NOW is the time to consider a BFD or any other equalizer... in my case I got the BFD first and used it BEFORE I'd really finished with all my acoustical treatments along with speaker placements and a revised seating arrangement... and what I found out was, I DIDN'T NEED THE BFD, I was blessed with a set of 'co-operating' room dimensions.

The difference in what my home theater/listening room sounds like now is nothing short of amazing (to me anyway). It made me a believer... so I will say it again, deal with the room's acoustics FIRST... then all else.

Lately I've seen a lot of posts about sealed subs. I am wondering if they will give me the magic bass I've been looking for. Do I have to shell out 3 grand for the JL Audio to get it?

Keep in mind that I could still use the SVS for movies and another sub for music. I usually listen to music at around 85 db and never go above 95 db (and that's rare) in my 18x23x8 room that's fully enclosed with carpet over concrete.

Is there a sub that sounds puchy, quick and not boomy even though it is hot for music? I want that "hit in the chest" feeling that I've never had with my current sub when it comes to music.

BTW, music performance is infinitely more important to me than movies.



Seems like people did not read the original posting.

Is is even possible to get that "hit in the chest feeling" when you playback at 85 dB (or even 95 dB peak)? Seems to me you need to playback at a higher volume level!

J Palmer,

I'm hoping that's not the case. I have some pretty bad tinnitis (sp?) which is constant ringing in the ears. I don't hear it much during the day, but at night I have to have a fan going pretty loud and I have a tinnitus speaker which goes under my pillow playing a cd with recorded fan noise so that I don't hear the riiiiiing when my ear is pressed on the pillow.

I actually use my radio shack meter when I listen to music so that I can keep the volume in check. I try to keep it below 90 db at almost all times (85-90 sounds pretty loud to me!)

Those of you in your teens and 20's need to be careful with the volume (I obviously was not), or you could have a constant companion inside your head for the rest of your life.

That being said, if someone said I could get rid of the ringing if I would stop listening to music I coudn't do it.

That's definitely loud enough. You need to evaluate your system to find out what's wrong with it, before you try to fix it with things that may not fix it at all (sub upgrades).

This means you have to find out what your in-room response is like. If room acoustics are sucking out the bass anywhere in the 50-100Hz range, or the bass is just much higher down low or above that range, that's your problem right there. A new sub won't fix that. It can only be fixed with a combination of different sub/couch placement, bass traps, and eq.

I've tried all kinds of both couch and sub placements and my current configuration seems to be the best. Even when I had the sub right next to my couch as an end table I wasn't completely satisfied.

Keep in mind, for movies I couldn't ask for more. This sub kicks my butt every time with quick, pants rattling bass. But when it comes to music it just sounds a little... soft - very full and still very good, but still it just lacks that punch.

BTW, if I run my mains as large, they don't give me the punch I'm looking for either.

What's the frequency response like? That's the most important thing.

It's been awhile since I used my test cd, but if I remember right I have a peak around 30hz and a dip in the upper 40's. Other than that it wasn't too bad, I'm going to check it again today and I'll post my findings.

Ok, here is my frequency response. I'm not sure if the link will work.


http://www.audioc.com/library1/testcd/freqnewwith.xls

Cool, it worked. I don't know much about all this, but doesn't that look relatively good? Maybe what I'm looking for as far as music bass doesn't exist... or, maybe the big hump down low is why movies rock and music is lacking?

Hmm... the link doesn't work now. I have it saved on my computer on excel, is there a way to make a link to that? I had it all plotted out on a graph.

Anyway, here is what I recorded with the radio shack meter. All db levels are corrected:

20 hz = 87.2
22.5 = 88.4
25 = 94.4
27.5 = 96.7
30 = 95.4
35 = 82.5
40 = 68
45 = 84.7
50 = 85
55 = 83
60 = 83.9
65 = 79.8
70 = 74.7
75 = 76.6
80 = 78.5
90 = 78.4
100 = 78.3
110 = 77.25
120 = 78

carp,

Here's a rough visual representation of your frequency response ...

http://www.hometheatershack.com/photopost/data/503/carpFreq.JPG

Tim

Thanks for doing that, Tim.

So what do you guys think? Do the numbers explain what I'm experiencing?

Ummm, ... yes.


Tim

I would first install bass traps and experiment with subwoofer location and listening position to reduce the severity of that null.

With the PEQ, I would then knock that 22-35 Hz peak WAY down (about 15 dB).

The combination of both actions above will tend to minimize the relative severity of that null at 40 Hz, and will also privide a much more balanced sound, restoring some of the mid-bass impact or slam that is currently being overshadowed by the bottom heavy portion of the curve.