... Yet another member telling us something that is meaningless and ...
A bit understated. Not just meaningless.
24p in a theater is done as 48p because the lower frequency makes the flicker much more noticeable. Raising it to 120Hz will make it even less noticeable, maybe not at all.

The flicker is needed to avoid retina retention, the primary cause of blur. That's why a strobed LED BLU is good, not bad.

The only alterative to repeating frames is interpolated frames, an immature technology. It "smooths" motion and also reduces blur with a non strobed BLU.

Westa's link and the following are a better read than most of the posts, mine included. Here's 10 pages on various aspects of processing (some are videos):
http://www.hqv.com/technology.cfm

http://www.sftlive.de/?article_id=606363

Found another European link to our mystery baby. This is the 71 series according to the contrast ratio specs. Gotta say, it doesn't look half bad in this pic.

So the 81 will have strobe backlight for plasma like motion. SOLD>

Bummer, most not go to movies or watch any broadcast TV. As movies double the frame rate to 48 or 72 and broadcast TV is 60 (in the US anyway) Not sure how this is just a digital display "problem"


I agree, they should shoot movies/tv at higher framerates but that of course is too expensive. Its not going to happen anytime soon. Then again even if it did, displays would still repeat/hold/dither the frames because thats how they currently work (though you'd see much less artifacts at say 120fps). The problem exists on both ends really.



-

Has anyone heard about preorders for the 71/81 sammys and their street price? I saw on ABT electronics site that they are on pre order. The rep I spoke to there said the 52in version would cost $4999. Ouch I asked the rep that once they came out if they would price match other stores they said no that the price for that tv would be the same no matter what and that no one would drop the price because of the limited number that will be sold foe this model. I think that is crap to believe the 81 will be a limited model. What do you guys think about this?

:mad:


It's my understanding that they are limiting the distribution of the 81's to authorized Internet Dealers, read into that , the ones who are not going to discount. The 71 series will get a wider distribution to other dealers. So I'd say that you won't being seeing any major discounting and will be paying close to MSRP for the 81's in the near future.

It's my understanding that they are limiting the distribution of the 81's to authorized Internet Dealers, read into that , the ones who are not going to discount. The 71 series will get a wider distribution to other dealers. So I'd say that you won't being seeing any major discounting and will be paying close to MSRP for the 81's in the near future.

If they limit the distribution to internet dealers, I doubt brick & mortar places would be showing demo units, and without seeing a $8000 TV, who the hell would buy one?
If it's gonna be a year to see one in action, I'll go with something else.

Sequential color is not a step backward but a big step forward. The benefits of this technology are:
- Huge power savings even on top of savings due to local dimming where dark regions of the screen use less power (More light can pass through without color filters. Displays can be much brighter using much less power).
- Elimination of color filters from LCD design that reduces overall cost (The percentage of cost that is attributed to color filters is not trivial.)
- Resolution could be tripled as each subpixel becomes a pixel.

http://aving.net/usa/news/default.asp?mode=read&c_num=49958&C_Code=09&mn_name=news
http://image.aving.net/img/2007/06/14/20070614030122623.jpg
http://image.aving.net/img/2007/06/14/200706140301226531.jpg

wow so the response time goesd to 1 somehow?

I dont know if extra brightness is necesarily a good thing, the screen already burns alot more than a CRT does and at lower brightness level, something else seems wrong with that.

yeah give it a rest already, i'm still waiting to see if the gloss is reduced or not (since i was sure i heard that that while glossy they would have better attempts to reduce it further to at leastb e below plasma or somesuch), and honeslty the "confirmations" being given for anything here are no more reliable than the initial ones at the beggining of the thread, simply got to wait until it's out there.

If they limit the distribution to internet dealers, I doubt brick & mortar places would be showing demo units, and without seeing a $8000 TV, who the hell would buy one?
If it's gonna be a year to see one in action, I'll go with something else.

Sorry I wasn't clear. They'll be distributed to the big national chains such as CC and BB who also don't deep discount. The other dealer they list is Costco, so it will be interesting to see if they will sell them there and at what price. Samsung's aim is to only distribute 81's through their authorized dealerships be they big box stores or high volume internet dealers. In this way they can assure that discounts will be kept to a minimum

...snip...

The flicker is needed to avoid retina retention, the primary cause of blur. That's why a strobed LED BLU is good, not bad.

The only alterative to repeating frames is interpolated frames, an immature technology. It "smooths" motion and also reduces blur with a non strobed BLU.

...snip

Hi All,
Long time lurker. Truly great forum.

This is my first post so be gentle, but I might be able to contribute from my film and programming background. (weird mix I know)

Just some thoughts on interpolation. This technology is in wide use to produce most true 3D video games in existence. It is used for the animation of polygons. Complex math (think quaternions) is performed on 2 frames of data to determine an average difference between the two. A new frame is generated to illustrate this difference. This has only been recently implemented in real-time in order to produce "rag-doll" effects and other physics simulations. It works quite well, though in a video feed as opposed to the coordinates of a polygon, I imagine it would have to do this for every pixel on the screen since there are no polygons.

Off hand this seems like it would be cumbersome but it wouldn't have to do this for every frame, only the frame that would normally be corrected. I think...since the goal is to get the NTSC video of 29.97 fps into the refresh rate of the display.

My concern is that this processing will slow down the display and produce lag for gamers. Whereas watching a movie should in theory be quite smooth. No different than watching an animation in a modern game.

Also, don't frame drops exist in all DVDs and Videos shot in film in order to achieve 30 fps in the first place? Would there be a big difference between dropping a frame or duplicating it? I'm a little grey here...

just checked out 3 different best buys and a few futershops all told me roughly the same thing.the samsung 81 and 71, toshiba lx 177,SONY XBR4 will all be in this month mid month.Time to compare them all.

Hi All,
Long time lurker. Truly great forum.

This is my first post so be gentle, but I might be able to contribute from my film and programming background. (weird mix I know)

Just some thoughts on interpolation. This technology is in wide use to produce most true 3D video games in existence. It is used for the animation of polygons. Complex math (think quaternions) is performed on 2 frames of data to determine an average difference between the two. A new frame is generated to illustrate this difference. This has only been recently implemented in real-time in order to produce "rag-doll" effects and other physics simulations. It works quite well, though in a video feed as opposed to the coordinates of a polygon, I imagine it would have to do this for every pixel on the screen since there are no polygons.

Off hand this seems like it would be cumbersome but it wouldn't have to do this for every frame, only the frame that would normally be corrected. I think...since the goal is to get the NTSC video of 29.97 fps into the refresh rate of the display.

My concern is that this processing will slow down the display and produce lag for gamers. Whereas watching a movie should in theory be quite smooth. No different than watching an animation in a modern game.

Also, don't frame drops exist in all DVDs and Videos shot in film in order to achieve 30 fps in the first place? Would there be a big difference between dropping a frame or duplicating it? I'm a little grey here...

Well great first post you should post more often.

True interpolation would be great but when I last checked there are not even external VP's that could do it, well under 10K at any rate

Yes there are frame drops when going to 30 that is why players that can output true 1080p24 are important to have in the mix.
Also IF the TV can properly deinterlace 1080i60 Film, by detecting the 3:2 cadence and then perform inverse telecine to get the original 1080p24.

You bet. Under Leegin, Sammy clearly can exploit its headstart in deploying this technology by setting and enforcing a fixed price. I suspect that any similarly situated manufacturer would do the same thing. Bad for consumers, good for stockholders. Welcome to the new pro-businesss Supreme Court!

In the shortrun, set pricing could be an effective strategy. This policy will probably break down over the long term if other manufacturers begin to market their version of this technology. As I mentioned in a previous (now deleted) post, the only thing Sammy needs to avoid is stifling competition by imposing some form of tying requirement on distributors. On the other hand, it doesn't seem that Sammy is exactly price gouging either.

Personally, I can afford to wait.

Suppose dealers were to compete by offering financing discounts, ie. no interest for 18 months. This is an effective discount based on the time value of money. Will vendors go so far as to bar these arrangements? 18 months of 5k no interest money is worth about $750.

Another point is that if supply of these sets is going to be so tight, resale price maintenance really doesn't matter. Traditional supply and demand will keep prices high.

I didnt think these were gonna come out so soon

I wouldnt be surprised if they came out end of october :(

just checked out 3 different best buys and a few futershops all told me roughly the same thing.the samsung 81 and 71, toshiba lx 177,SONY XBR4 will all be in this month mid month.Time to compare them all.

Futureshop heh? Will they carry the 81 as well? Any word on pricing?

Thanks for digging this out, I'll go out to my local FS and ask them out (last I checked, 2-3 weeks ago, nobody knew about the new Samsungs).

Suppose dealers were to compete by offering financing discounts, ie. no interest for 18 months. This is an effective discount based on the time value of money. Will vendors go so far as to bar these arrangements? 18 months of 5k no interest money is worth about $750.


I believe financing is sold to a 3rd party for a small fee it wouldn't be $750. This way the retailer gets a sale that might not have happened and gets the money for the books right away.

The financing side hopes you miss payments or in some way to charge extra fees.

Are we going to get any sort of notice before these sets come out, or do they just show up in stores and online like a thief in the night?

like a thief in the night :eek: :eek:

The financing side hopes you miss payments or in some way to charge extra fees.

The financing side is simply banking on you failing to pay it off (in full) within the 12, 18, or 24 months. Unless I'm mistaken, the interest is almost always retroactive and very high (around 20%). In other words, if you have so much as $10 remaining at the end of the free period, they charge you the full 20% (annually, so ~40% on 24 month) on the entire $3000 or $6000 (whatever you financed). I imagine A LOT of people fail to, especially on items as expensive as these.

The financing side is simply banking on you failing to pay it off (in full) within the 12, 18, or 24 months. Unless I'm mistaken, the interest is almost always retroactive and very high (around 20%). In other words, if you have so much as $10 remaining at the end of the free period, they charge you the full 20% (annually, so ~40% on 24 month) on the entire $3000 or $6000 (whatever you financed). I imagine A LOT of people fail to, especially on items as expensive as these.

My brother had one company hold the last check out from deposit and thenthey claimed, that he didn't make the payment on time, resulting in the big interest charge. He fought it and eventually won.

- Resolution could be tripled as each subpixel becomes a pixel.


That sounds going bit too far as the subpixels are too small to be pixels. Instead, one could talk about bigger pixels NOT composed of subpixels, driven by sequential color form the LED BL. Adding to this elimination of color filters it would mean huge savings in production complexity, even more light output and better color rendering.

However, I have not seen any experimental results on such system so it is not clear if color filters can be eliminated in practice. Potential problem in a system without color filters is color spill to neighboring pixels and reduced black level.

Well great first post you should post more often.

True interpolation would be great but when I last checked there are not even external VP's that could do it, well under 10K at any rate

Yes there are frame drops when going to 30 that is why players that can output true 1080p24 are important to have in the mix.
Also IF the TV can properly deinterlace 1080i60 Film, by detecting the 3:2 cadence and then perform inverse telecine to get the original 1080p24.
Film and broadcast masters are shot in 1080p24 - not 1080i60.

Please read here:

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_14_1/feature-article-1080p-3-2007-part-3.html

best buy magnolia had 4 tvs listed in the RSS inventory system

40,46,52,57

sku for lnt4081 8457243
sku for lnt4681 8458509

Checked at the Portland, OR BB/Magnolia today, they have 8/26/07 in the computer.

Film and broadcast masters are shot in 1080p24 - not 1080i60.

Please read here:

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_14_1/feature-article-1080p-3-2007-part-3.html

OK, is that not what I said?? It may be shot in 1080p24 but it is transmitted at 60 (in the US any way) and like I said IF the TV can properly deinterlace 1080i60 Film, by detecting the 3:2 cadence and then perform inverse telecine to get the original 1080p24.

There is also 1080i video inverse telecine will not work with this as the master is not 1080p24 (think Baseball game, news and such) with this you need to some other form of deinterlacing and you end up with some thing in-between 540 and 1080.

Lets not derail a good thread there is another thread addressing this very thing.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=11210963#post11210963

Checked at the Portland, OR BB/Magnolia today, they have 8/26/07 in the computer.

BB in Orlando,FL had the same date for the 81 but the CR could not find the 71, by any chance did you ask about the 71 as well?

My brother had one company hold the last check out from deposit and thenthey claimed, that he didn't make the payment on time, resulting in the big interest charge. He fought it and eventually won.

Indeed, when I finished my 15 year mortgage, I got a bill from them for under about 150 bucks for "late payments." Which is funny because the monthly check went out automatically like clockwork from my bank to them. It would cost me FAR more to fight them over it than just pay up... so I paid up.

Apple Bank, frakking crooks!

I want to post links to pdf-specs of the european versions of the new samsung lcds, but i'm not allowed to post urls yet ...

2 ...

1 ...

OK, here you go:
F96 specs (european version of the 81F) (http://www.1staudiovisual.co.uk/catalog/pdfs/SamsungF96.pdf)
F86 specs (http://www.1staudiovisual.co.uk/catalog/pdfs/SamsungF86.pdf)

Model Code
Inch
Full HD
Color Gamut
Filter (Glare)
Back Light Unit Type
LED Scanning
Processing Type
Vertical Frequency
LE52F96BDX
52"
Yes
82%
Yes
LED+L/D
No
8bit
50Hz
Panel
LE70F96BDX
70"
Yes
82%
Yes
LED+L/D
No
8bit
50Hz


Wait.. color gamut on the EU editions are set at 82%? 50hz only? Am I missing something here? Only 8bit screen? No 10bit?

Wait.. color gamut on the EU editions are set at 82%? 50hz only? Am I missing something here? Only 8bit screen? No 10bit?
It seems so, but the specs might of course be wrong ...
Does the european model differ from the us version? I don't know ...

Model Code
Wait.. color gamut on the EU editions are set at 82%? 50hz only? Am I missing something here? Only 8bit screen? No 10bit?
I am not sure on the color gamut, but the first question would be which gamut exactly is at hand here. :confused:

Europe is 50Hz versus USA 60Hz. The latter seems an advantage, as the jump to 120Hz (as a whole multiple of 24Hz) has already been made on some tv's. But on the upside, SD PAL has better resolution with about 20% more lines than SD NTSC. :)

And I believe (not sure though) that almost all screens are 8 bit, it's the processing that varies (8, 10, 12 bit ...).

8-bit processing does not necessary mean 8-bit panel. But no smaller than 52"!! (nobody here in EU buys that big TVs)
All previous EU samsung hdtvs had also 60Hz mode. If they made tv with only 50hz that would mean xbox , ps3 .etc, devices would not work.
And f86 series has 48Hz mode for 24Hz content.(using motion frame interpolation)

Edit: Reason it says 50Hz is likely fact that it does not have 100/120Hz like f86 has.
But it also says no "LED scanning" which was said make CRT like responce time :mad:

No 100Hz - hmmmm. Should I be worried about that? Doesn't sound good.

What's the USB port for?

What's the USB port for?
To be used with USB thumbdrive (images, short movies, etc.) and future firmware update.

8-bit processing does not necessary mean 8-bit panel. But no smaller than 52"!! (nobody here in EU buys that big TVs)
All previous EU samsung hdtvs had also 60Hz mode. If they made tv with only 50hz that would mean xbox , ps3 .etc, devices would not work.
And f86 series has 48Hz mode for 24Hz content.(using motion frame interpolation)

Edit: Reason it says 50Hz is likely fact that it does not have 100/120Hz like f86 has.
But it also says no "LED scanning" which was said make CRT like responce time :mad:

I'm little disappointed reading the Europeean specs compared to the US versions, mostly because no smaller versions than 52" seems to be avaiable? Though, it seems like the F86 is a masterpiece - but never I'll go for CCFL...

Thogh, I'm doubtful regarding the truth about these Europeean documents:
1) F96 says subwoofers a'la 15"W x 2 output, but no subwoofers on F86.
Official Samsung Germany pressrelease on F86 in their newsletter of July clearly says subwoofers on F86, and also 8 ms respons time. On the other hand, new specs says 6 ms respons time and lack of subwoofers...
http://presse.samsung.de/gateway_press_mediennewsletter.asp

2) In F96 specs, the alternative "LED scanning" is marked : 'No'
Why is this alternative avaiable in the specs at all? Wich Samsung Europe models has or will have LED scanning?
One could hope that there are forthcoming models on F96 < 52" that has LED scanning, same as US models...

OK, the F86 brochure explains that the USB port is for listening to MP3s and looking at JPEGs. A litte DIVX support would have been cool - wouldn't need an HTPC then. Maybe they'll add that later on - would be awesome.

Reading the specs it seems like Samsung is giving us a confusing set of choices here in the EU. Want LED backlighting on a small screen? Out of luck. 100Hz and 10-bit processing on a big screen? Sorry. The F86 is brighter & faster than the F96, and has better color resolution. Based on these specs, I don't even know which is the better screen - guess we'll have to wait for the reviews. Do we have any word on pricing?

never I'll go for CCFL...Why not? And what's LED scanning?

wow - 85 pages of talk but this tv is still not out

I hear a ton of dates but now that we are in august - any better idea of when this tv will be out. I am tring to decide if I should wait or just get the 52 inch LN-T5265F which is the one I always planned on getting. Just moving into a new place and I don't know if I can wait or if I want to pay 1500 more for this tv (i can get the LN-T5265F for 3500 or less)

Update about f96. It seems to have led scanning(a dude called to customer service). So for now we can srcap that pdf.

Why not? And what's LED scanning?

It works like camera shutter to reduce motion blur. It is a better way to fight motion blur than 120Hz because it does not cause lag to video games.

wow - 85 pages of talk but this tv is still not out

I hear a ton of dates but now that we are in august - any better idea of when this tv will be out. I am tring to decide if I should wait or just get the 52 inch LN-T5265F which is the one I always planned on getting. Just moving into a new place and I don't know if I can wait or if I want to pay 1500 more for this tv (i can get the LN-T5265F for 3500 or less)


Check the posts, Best Buy has it in their computers for late this month.
You can actually go to a Best Buy & have them pre-order it for you so you get it on that exact date.

the 81 series is out already. Apparently a poster on another forum has a 32 inch. im waiting for a response from him giving his opinion

Isn't 40" the smallest?

the 81 series is out already. Apparently a poster on another forum has a 32 inch. im waiting for a response from him giving his opinion

This is probably not the 81 series we have been anticipating here (LED backlit LCD TV). Samsung has an 81 series in the Australia-Asia market that is similar the the 65 series here in the US. Samsung has no models in the US 81 series as small as 32".

8-bit processing does not necessary mean 8-bit panel. But no smaller than 52"!! (nobody here in EU buys that big TVs).

Indifference to big sizes was to due to the lack of HDTV in EU. Now HDTV is mushrooming in major markets and HD discs/players become available so there is incentive to buy big size TV's.

It remains to be seen if EU 96 = US 81 model. The specs are very confusing.

CC raised by 200$ the price of 65 series (52 inch) , Amazon around 600$ bump. Other vendors also have been increasing the prices. Is this a hint that 81 series release is imminent?

Indifference to big sizes was to due to the lack of HDTV in EU. Now HDTV is mushrooming in major markets and HD discs/players become available so there is incentive to buy big size TV's. I am more skeptical with regard to HD here in Europe. :)

PAL SD is quite a bit better then NTSC SD, which takes away some incentive to upgrade to HD. Also, Europeans markets are more into the 28"-42"range, and I believe that that is mainly due to the middle class living rooms here being smaller on average then in the US.
Both these combined makes for less demand for HD then in the US. Hence the lesser supply I think. Where I live there is a large DVD store with a paltry 2 foot of BR discs (no HD DVD for some reason). And they don't seem to sell very well...

Also, it is my impression that the buying power of the American middle class is greater than in Europe.

The clincher IMHO seems to me the cheapness of SD DVD, and the gargantuan amount of available titles on it. Especially many series and comedies that people remember from their youth. You just can't fathom what you can get on DVD these days. Enormous. So people already have collections in SD and are not likely to replace them, or buy a tv on which they look bad all of a sudden.
I really know nobody amongst my family and friends who wants HD. Flat, yes. On the wall, yes. Small (<=42), yes. Large and HD, nope.

So all in all, I believe that here in Europe HD will be a niche market.

I could be wrong off course, ymmv. :)

It remains to be seen if EU 96 = US 81 model. The specs are very confusing.One really wonders why manufacters do not use the same model numbering on a global basis, with only a small added indicator for the country for instance. Must be confusing to themselves sometimes too one would think.

Anyone in Canada find the SKU #s for the 81series at Futureshop or best Buy?

specifically the 40inch

I lost out on a few really good deals recently on the 5265 in anticipation of the 120hz 71 series. I personally haven't seen any 120hz tvs for comparison. Is it expected to make a signficant impact on watching sports and fast-moving video games (the 2 biggest uses for me)? A few people told me I should get a plasma because of my main use but I worried about IR/burn-in from games and logos on sports programming, as well as the inability to control the lighting in my room. I hope the reflectiveness on the 71 is at least a little better than the 5265, but we'll have to wait and see.

CC raised by 200$ the price of 65 series (52 inch) , Amazon around 600$ bump. Other vendors also have been increasing the prices. Is this a hint that 81 series release is imminent?

I don't understand why they would raise their prices.

Anyone in Canada find the SKU #s for the 81series at Futureshop or best Buy?

specifically the 40inch
i have guys on the inside at 3 major retailers and non have SKU NUMBERS YET but all have told me the same story 71s will be $500.00 than the 65series and the 81 will be $ 500.00 more than the 71s. and will start to show up at warehouses in 2 to 3 weeks 71s first then a week or 2 later the 81s.The exclusive thing they said is a bunch of$%@%$$ everyone will have them.

i have guys on the inside at 3 major retailers and non have SKU NUMBERS YET but all have told me the same story 71s will be $500.00 than the 65series and the 81 will be $ 500.00 more than the 71s. and will start to show up at warehouses in 2 to 3 weeks 71s first then a week or 2 later the 81s.The exclusive thing they said is a bunch of$%@%$$ everyone will have them.

what best buy has them already? and if so where? I am looking for the 81 in dc.

By now, I would imagine there have been many 81s produced and awaiting shipment. If so, then wouldn't it be in Samsung's best interest to send few models to professional reviewers? Should we expect some kind of review before September or the will the first reviews be posted in owners thread on AVS?

i have guys on the inside at 3 major retailers and non have SKU NUMBERS YET but all have told me the same story 71s will be $500.00 than the 65series and the 81 will be $ 500.00 more than the 71s. and will start to show up at warehouses in 2 to 3 weeks 71s first then a week or 2 later the 81s.The exclusive thing they said is a bunch of$%@%$$ everyone will have them.
thanks for the info
I know what the retail is gonna go for
3000 in the us means about 3200 here

but i need those skus so i can see arrival and cost price etc
so if you or anyone in canada finds the futureshop\bestbuy sku # post it, or gimi a shout via PM

Would anyone here have any idea what model number they'll be using in Australia for the 81 series?
Also, what sort of price should i be expecting? The exchange rate from (US)$3000 to (AU)$ makes it $3500.
The last generation of samsungs came out around march this year so i expect it'll be that time again next year.

I don't understand why they would raise their prices.
Prices go up and down all the time. But in a long run, it will be down so if you don't have to purchase one right now, just wait for it to go down and pull the trigger--bang.

Hopefully, both 61/65 will go way down when both 71 & 81 hit the market!

of course the 61/65 will go down as they will be inferior to the 71 series. The 81 series is a whole other ball game. I have a buddy at BB who will give me exact pricing and availability for both BB and Future Shop[. Even the employee pricing, which I hope will give me a sweet deal :D

of course the 61/65 will go down as they will be inferior to the 71 series. The 81 series is a whole other ball game. I have a buddy at BB who will give me exact pricing and availability for both BB and Future Shop[. Even the employee pricing, which I hope will give me a sweet deal :D

And you will share the availability with us. :)

And the employee pricing!! :)

... Maybe just the first.

i did say 2 to 3 weeks till they start to show up at the warehouses im in vancouver bc canada.I get installers pricing for a 52" eg I WOULD GET 5% above cost 5000.00 =4000.00 my coast a 46" 3500.00 =2500.00 for me gives you a rough idea of the mark up.

CC raised by 200$ the price of 65 series (52 inch) , Amazon around 600$ bump. Other vendors also have been increasing the prices. Is this a hint that 81 series release is imminent?

Well,and on the fence I will remain.
Been waiting and waiting for the right tech. for HD.
It's either too finicky(unreliable)or way too expensive.
Not too mention the programming is still too compressed for true HD(unless you have fios).

KD

CC raised by 200$ the price of 65 series (52 inch) , Amazon around 600$ bump. Other vendors also have been increasing the prices. Is this a hint that 81 series release is imminent?I'd say it's more an indication of the weakness of the US dollar (compared to the Korean Won).

Also, it is my impression that the buying power of the American middle class is greater than in Europe.You sure got that right. Americans are loath to admit it to themselves, but they have it darn good. They pay little or no payroll tax, very low income tax, very low sales tax, and live in the most competitive market in the world. To be honest, these days the EU is a pretty competitive market, too, but probably the only place in the EU with taxation on US levels is Estonia, although I'd bet even they have higher tax.

So all in all, I believe that here in Europe HD will be a niche market.Definitely in the short-term, but I think it will come. I remember when I moved from California to Sweden with my DVD player and huge DVD collection. I couldn't believe it that no-one I knew in Sweden had a DVD player, and that you couldn't rent DVDs. At that time everyone said that DVD would never take off in the EU, but look at it now. HD will take off everywhere in the end, because eventually the price differential will become so low that people won't be able to resist.

I found the following link this morning, claiming that the new Samsung 71 & 81 series would only be available later in 2007 (holidays). People on this forum have been speculating an August release date. Has anyone heard of an official release date? I've been holding off on a 5265 for the 71 series.

I don't have enough posts registered to post the link, but here's a bit of the article, from twice:

Samsung last week took the wraps off of its new high-performance TV models slated to ship in time for the holidays. Highlights included a lineup of LED-based LCD TVs, the company's first Wi-Fi enabled plasma sets and a new 3D system for DLP-based rear-projection HDTV viewing.

Does anyone know what Movie Plus exactly is and what the difference is with 100Hz technology? It seems they are complementary, but only the F96 has Motion Plus (and no 100Hz), while the F86 has 100Hz but no Movie Plus !

I am more skeptical with regard to HD here in Europe. :). PAL SD is quite a bit better then NTSC SD, which takes away some incentive to upgrade to HD. Also, Europeans markets are more into the 28"-42"range, and I believe that that is mainly due to the middle class living rooms here being smaller on average then in the US.
Both these combined makes for less demand for HD then in the US. Hence the lesser supply I think.


These are very uniformed opinions :D. First, you have to know that in the US HDTV is an old thing because it has been MANDATED on people (in a land of free-wheeling capitalism land :cool: ). In EUrope HDTV was not introduced because it was (rightly) seen that display technology is not mature.

What is happening right now is introduction of HDTV in Europe based on pure market forces by commercial broadcasters. The early intake rates are good in these circumstances. Prospects are very positive since displays are not a problem now.

Regarding the display sizes it is well known that people for bigger ones when prices are right. What you say about the European 28"-42" is just reflecting that prices for this range are right. There is no reason people woulnd move in the range of 40s and 50s if they get HD discs.


Where I live there is a large DVD store with a paltry 2 foot of BR discs (no HD DVD for some reason). And they don't seem to sell very well...


Oh well, it is a very good sign that there already are those discs. This is still very early adopter stage,
how many players are available and how much they cost?


The clincher IMHO seems to me the cheapness of SD DVD, and the gargantuan amount of available titles on it. Especially many series and comedies that people remember from their youth. You just can't fathom what you can get on DVD these days. Enormous. So people already have collections in SD and are not likely to replace them, or buy a tv on which they look bad all of a sudden.


One has to wait for 99 euro HD players and then you will see nobody buying standard DVD player anymore.


I really know nobody amongst my family and friends who wants HD. Flat, yes. On the wall, yes. Small (<=42), yes. Large and HD, nope.
So all in all, I believe that here in Europe HD will be a niche market.
I could be wrong off course, ymmv. :)


You live in a niche market and hence your impression :rolleyes:. Look into Sky in the UK. They have big expansion program for HD and customers respond positively.

for people that reserved the 81 series at bestbuy - what day did they say the tvs will arrive and how much did they say they'll cost?

You sure got that right. Americans are loath to admit it to themselves, but they have it darn good. They pay little or no payroll tax, very low income tax, very low sales tax, and live in the most competitive market in the world. To be honest, these days the EU is a pretty competitive market, too, but probably the only place in the EU with taxation on US levels is Estonia, although I'd bet even they have higher tax.


Your outcry is understandable for being in a place with highest taxation under the Sun if not the whole galaxy :D

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_tax_revenue_as_percentage_of_GDP

Taxation in developed states of EUrope is much higher than in the US and only those less developed match it

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_tax_revenue_as_percentage_of_GDP

The issue is however more complicated. There are arguments that for fair comparison one should add to the US tax rate costs of private healthcare and private education which are funded by taxation in Europe. That will bring overall expenditure more close to the European ones as there are no free lunches, either they have to be paid from taxes or own pockets.

Then there is immeasurable cost of not having universal health insurance and limited social welfare net. Some think this contributes to the US having 10 times more imprisoned people per capita than countries with high taxation.

There are also immeasurable costs of running energy inefficient economy in the US (much higher energy consumption per GDP unit product). This lowers energy costs in short term but effects on global warming and resources depletion are unknown.


HD will take off everywhere in the end, because eventually the price differential will become so low that people won't be able to resist.

Full agreement here. Also, people will move to bigger display sizes when they become affordable.

This is supposed to be a anticipation thread on the samsung 81 series, not a forum to discuss the demographic and social issues between the United States and the EU. Please get back on track. Your outcry is understandable for being in a place with highest taxation under the Sun if not the whole galaxy :D

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_tax_revenue_as_percentage_of_GDP

Taxation in developed states of EUrope is much higher than in the US and only those less developed match it

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_tax_revenue_as_percentage_of_GDP

The issue is however more complicated. There are arguments that for fair comparison one should add to the US tax rate costs of private healthcare and private education which are funded by taxation in Europe. That will bring overall expenditure more close to the European ones as there are no free lunches, either they have to be paid from taxes or own pockets.

Then there is immeasurable cost of not having universal health insurance and limited social welfare net. Some think this contributes to the US having 10 times more imprisoned people per capita than countries with high taxation.

There are also immeasurable costs of running energy inefficient economy in the US (much higher energy consumption per GDP unit product). This lowers energy costs in short term but effects on global warming and resources depletion are unknown.



Full agreement here. Also, people will move to bigger display sizes when they become affordable.

I found the following link this morning, claiming that the new Samsung 71 & 81 series would only be available later in 2007 (holidays). People on this forum have been speculating an August release date.
Samsung Debuts Holiday HDTVs
(http://www.twice.com/article/CA6460720.html)

I don't like the sound of this:
...the 81 series, which will receive a protected distribution policy targeting A/V specialty dealers, installers and sales-driven regional accounts.

Samsung Debuts Holiday HDTVs
(http://www.twice.com/article/CA6460720.html)

I don't like the sound of this:

In time for the holidays could very well mean end of August, September being when the US commercial machine starts decking the halls :)

The BestBuy/Magnolia near me has the 81 "available" on August 26th. The person helping me was asking if I wanted to special order it, but then her manager kept insisting she couldn't, since it needs to be in their warehouse for them to do that.

I've heard other people having different experiences, and the fact that this store has only been open a couple of weeks means it might not be the best indication of what you can expect, but the 52" 81 was (on thier computers) slated for 8/26/07.

The sets include a broadcast base station equipped with a built-in 802.11n wireless routerWow, that's pretty cool, assuming it works. Wish the 81 series had 802.11n. I guess you could probably rig this up via a PC, but it's mucho-cool to have everything built into the TV (no clutter).

Check the posts, Best Buy has it in their computers for late this month.
You can actually go to a Best Buy & have them pre-order it for you so you get it on that exact date.

I checked my local Best Buy and Circuit city - neither had it in their computers.

CC raised by 200$ the price of 65 series (52 inch) , Amazon around 600$ bump. Other vendors also have been increasing the prices. Is this a hint that 81 series release is imminent?
Usually, a drop in price means they need to get inventory sold just before the new model comes out. The opposite and less common, an unexpected delay would mean a lack of supply just before a new model comes out. That would result in a price increase. Another factor would be if the new model is more expensive than the current model. They would want to increase the price of the old model so the new model looks like a better value.

I checked my local Best Buy and Circuit city - neither had it in their computers.

Does your BB have a Magnolia in it? That may be why. If not, make sure you tell them the model number LN-T4681f or replace 46 with the screensize you want.
They give you a blank look if you ask about the 81 series from Samsung.

andreasy969 wrote:
OK, here you go:
F96 specs (european version of the 81F)
F86 specs

Thanks for the links. However the link to the F86 specs does not seem to be working.
Regardless, the F96 specs (assuming that they are correct) seem to confirm that Samsung has been able to better the contrast ratio yet again with the F96 models, going from 100000 :1 to 500000:1. Maybe they will announce in December new LCDs with a 1000000:1 contrast ratio. :D

I have been looking at several other units and I keep coming back to this one...

Anyone have any issues from spouses on the gloss of the cabinet?

Anyone have any issues from spouses on the gloss of the cabinet?

LMFAO. :D my spouse loves the gloss. When we make sweet love we can see each other in the reflections.

LMFAO. :D my spouse loves the gloss. When we make sweet love we can see each other in the reflections.
We don't really need to hear that in here. Wrong forum! :eek:

Need advice - I am deciding between holding off and waiting for the 71 , 81 series or puchasing the 52 inch 65 series tv. Bottom line - do you guys believe that these tvs will have a significant difference in picture quality than the 65 series or is it just more numbers that really won't make a huge deal and I should go out and get the 65?

I can buy the 65 for around 3200 - the 71 will cost 4k and the 81 is 5k. Do you recommend me waiting b/c the difference will be huge (I know you guys haven't see the tvs but let me know based on your experience - also anyone with comparison links would be helpful.

52 inch is what I am looking for...

*snip* I can buy the 65 for around 3200 - the 71 will cost 4k and the 81 is 5k. Do you recommend me waiting b/c the difference will be huge (I know you guys haven't see the tvs but let me know based on your experience - also anyone with comparison links would be helpful. *snip*

I saw the 5265 at Future Shop today, and watched an HD NASCAR race on both it and a Panny Plasma. I know changing setting might make a difference to the sharpness, color, etc, but I noticed motion blur on the Samsung, but not on the Panasonic, which had a far less vivid but much sharper image. This was my second look at the 5265 (at different retailers).

I was impressed by the 5265's black levels and vivid colors, but I could not tolerate the motion blur. For this reason, I'm waiting for the 71 series, in hopes that the 120 Hz refresh rate will elimnate blur.

That said, here's a question for any current Samsung 65 series owners. Nearly every HDTV at Futureshop was displaying the NASCAR race. Am I correct in thinking that one signal was split among all those televisions, and therefore the 5265 I saw simply wasn't able to display the images at full strength/clarity/sharpness? Have you noticed that big of a difference in image quality when the TV was at your home compared to the image you saw at the store?

See my post below with the link.

4

3

2

1

Just in case you did not see it before the manual is here. (http://ibbank.net/manual/z_manual_view.asp?manual_no=3830&nPage=1&mode=search&s_pro_no=&s_prod_no=10&s_type_no=&s_gubun_no=&start_date=&end_date=&search_val=4681&order_type=&order_val=&search_val2=&search_type=&s_manual_stat=&cok=)

LMFAO. :D my spouse loves the gloss. When we make sweet love we can see each other in the reflections.

lol

See my post below with the link.Great find, thanks a lot. :)
Apparently, there is the option of turning off both local dimming (LED SmartLighting) and LED scanning (LED Motion Plus) and there's also a feature demo available. This is exactly what I wanted. Very cool.

I dunno though, it makes me a little nervous that people would have reason to turn either off, i want to think that they are pretty much always good to have on. I mean it would seem like if it does what its supposed to do you'd be losing a crucial bump in performance by turning the motion feature off (and does anyone know if it will be better or worse than the 71's???) but if you turn the local dimming off then what do you have? CFFL level? worse?

It's like saying you would be glad that you'd have an off option for the Wide Color Gamut.

LMFAO. :D my spouse loves the gloss. When we make sweet love we can see each other in the reflections.


wow to see that size, you must have the 5765

Samsung Debuts Holiday HDTVs
(http://www.twice.com/article/CA6460720.html)

I don't like the sound of this:

That article makes it sound more like November/December release. However, the date on the article was 7/16 and referred to the week before so it could be wrong.

The 57"er is also listed at $7999 again. It's also been listed at $6999 on other sites. I wish they'd clarify what the price is. I'm about ready to drop this one off my list and go for the Pioneer for pricing reasons. If it's released in limited quantities and only in high end stores then at least in my area 10% off would be the very best. And I'm not paying much more than $5k on a 57"er when what I really want is a 70"er or larger TV:D.

hehe, I hope they fix their spelling..

From the 81 manual...


http://208.190.95.134/back-light.jpg



http://208.190.95.134/LED_Smart_Lighting.JPG



http://208.190.95.134/xvYCC.jpg


Also noticed Just Scan in both HDMI & Component, with 720p, 1080i, & 1080p on both.

.

Also noticed Just Scan in both HDMI & Component, with 720p, 1080i, & 1080p on both.

.


YES! Justscan wasn't available on Component on the 65 series.

The 57"er is also listed at $7999 again. It's also been listed at $6999 on other sites. I wish they'd clarify what the price is. I'm about ready to drop this one off my list and go for the Pioneer for pricing reasons. If it's released in limited quantities and only in high end stores then at least in my area 10% off would be the very best. And I'm not paying much more than $5k on a 57"er when what I really want is a 70"er or larger TV:D.

Never thought I would ever hear "going with the Pioneer for pricing reasons"...

Sadly the wife wants this unit more than I do even it would seem but I can't see spending 8K for the unit.... hopefully reality sets in and the price comes down a bit otherwise maybe I will convince myself the 71 is "good enough".

That article makes it sound more like November/December release. However, the date on the article was 7/16 and referred to the week before so it could be wrong.

The 57"er is also listed at $7999 again. It's also been listed at $6999 on other sites. I wish they'd clarify what the price is. I'm about ready to drop this one off my list and go for the Pioneer for pricing reasons. If it's released in limited quantities and only in high end stores then at least in my area 10% off would be the very best. And I'm not paying much more than $5k on a 57"er when what I really want is a 70"er or larger TV:D.
The new Samsung/Sony Plant was completed 2-3 months ahead of schedule thus what they thought would be Holiday becomes sooner and the Holidays is not that far off truly and I listed the production schedule for a Asian press release last month where they listed the production levels that started in early July with test distribution quota's first - the distribution time lag is about 30 days and of course it doesn't mean N. America gets the first batch - I suspect first distributiojn may take place in Korea.

Last year when the 57" debuted it had 30 day exclusivity with Mag Stores and then became available at others in the marketplace. I would expect the street to command close to whatever the Toshiba can pull in or the current 57" Samsung which cannot be bought on-line as they are prepping to transition to the new but unlikely you may see it under $6K IMO for awhile since they have so little competition in that size for LCD just as Sharp has next to none in the 65" and they've held MSRP on it dating back to October 2006 on the previous version and then they raised it on the current one.

Your budget sounds more prone to a XBR5 70" SXRD now that should street sweetly in that region but it may be awhile before we see 70" LCD's at Joe Consumer levels to the disdain of many. I know how you feel as 70" LCD is my dream but the pricing is in the lotto winners zone for now. :cool:

Just in case you did not see it before the manual is here. (http://ibbank.net/manual/z_manual_view.asp?manual_no=3830&nPage=1&mode=search&s_pro_no=&s_prod_no=10&s_type_no=&s_gubun_no=&start_date=&end_date=&search_val=4681&order_type=&order_val=&search_val2=&search_type=&s_manual_stat=&cok=)

That link does not work for me. all I get are some Chinese? characters.

JW

That link does not work for me. all I get are some Chinese? characters.

JW

If you click on any pdf link, the new window opens. On top of that window the message (in English) saying that the site requires "TABSFileup" to be installed from TABS Laboratories Corporation. Click on that bar to install this Active X control in order to view pdf documents. If you do not get the message, just google for TABSFileup and install it.

I hope it helps.

Any comments on it's reported 85% color gamut in the spec sheet?

Surely that is a misprint, led's are supposed to be over 100%.

Thanks for the links. However the link to the F86 specs does not seem to be working.
I checked the link and it works fine for me ... think you should just try it again.

Are all the different files different versions of the same file (ie they're proof reading it), with the last four digits being the day and month?

Just in case you did not see it before the manual is here. (http://ibbank.net/manual/z_manual_view.asp?manual_no=3830&nPage=1&mode=search&s_pro_no=&s_prod_no=10&s_type_no=&s_gubun_no=&start_date=&end_date=&search_val=4681&order_type=&order_val=&search_val2=&search_type=&s_manual_stat=&cok=)No big surprises there. I was disappointed to see no 14:9 aspect ratio support. My good old Samsung SD plasma has this, and I use it all the time to watch 4:3 content. It's a pretty good compromise between 4:3 and 16:9, whereby the side bars are smaller and a small portion of the top and bottom are cutoff. I thought that newer Samsung plasmas had replaced this mode with zoom in/out controls, that allow you to zoom in and out in 4:3 mode, but I don't see anything like that in the 81-series manual.

I see prices quoted by Samsung for these tvs but are these the ones that we'll find at BB or CC? Or will they add their usual increase? Right now I am still deciding on picking up the 5265 or waiting for the 5271. Right now the price is 4k (4300 quoted by some) for the 71 but will that be it or will CC sell it for 5k?

Lastly - I still haven't received an opinion over the true difference these tvs will have compared to the 65. I know no one has seen them yet but based on stats alone (assuming they hold up) will this really make a visible difference? It def will in my wallet, if I hold off and go for the 71 (prob 1k difference).

thanks!

65 to 71 will most likely give you the "standard" upgrade in picture that you usually see from year to year, except the 120hz may help alot with blur. So depending on how sensitive you are to blur then the 71 can be a huge improvement for you and many others.

The 81 series is a whole other story. On paper it should destroy the 71 and 65 series, but again no one has really had a chance to put it through it's paces. My advice would to wait. If the 81 series doesn't pan out for some reason :confused: then a direct comparison between the 65 and 71 will show if it is worth the extra money.

65 to 71 will most likely give you the "standard" upgrade in picture that you usually see from year to year, except the 120hz may help alot with blur. So depending on how sensitive you are to blur then the 71 can be a huge improvement for you and many others.

The 81 series is a whole other story. On paper it should destroy the 71 and 65 series, but again no one has really had a chance to put it through it's paces. My advice would to wait. If the 81 series doesn't pan out for some reason :confused: then a direct comparison between the 65 and 71 will show if it is worth the extra money.

thanks - but correct me if I'm wrong - the 65 series came out this year right? Esentially samsung is releasing a set that already is better than the 65 or are they going for the high end market and not phasing out the 65 (just offering a more expensive option with the 71 and 81)?

thanks - but correct me if I'm wrong - the 65 series came out this year right? Esentially samsung is releasing a set that already is better than the 65 or are they going for the high end market and not phasing out the 65 (just offering a more expensive option with the 71 and 81)?
61/65/66 series came out in April of this year.

I was disappointed to see no 14:9 aspect ratio support. My good old Samsung SD plasma has this, and I use it all the time to watch 4:3 content.

Not sure why you would need that feature on an LCD.

I must admit I'm rather confused by the existence of the 71 series. Its price and specs seem very similar to the XBR4, and if past experience is any indication, there's a pretty fair chance it'll be the lesser of the two quality wise. Clearly they intend it to be a direct competitor in the upper segment of the Big Box retailers, so for me, this kind of cast doubt on their confidence--and the quality of--the 81 . I'm not quite following why didn't just scrap the 71 entirely and devote all that time, money, and resources into mass producing and cost reducing the 81 series for widespread availability and total market segment domination. If this is a true revolution as we are being led to believe, it just seems backwards to under produce and limit a technology with the potential to corner the market, only to allow every competitor under the sun to release their own version of it the next year.

Never thought I would ever hear "going with the Pioneer for pricing reasons"...

Sadly the wife wants this unit more than I do even it would seem but I can't see spending 8K for the unit.... hopefully reality sets in and the price comes down a bit otherwise maybe I will convince myself the 71 is "good enough".

Yea, who would believe a Pioneer being called a more affordable TV:confused:.

But I've already seen a website (forum sponsored) with the upcoming 60" 1080p model for below $5k with shipping. So yeah, it's a value compared to the Sammy 81s when I'd have to believe it's cost me $2-$3k more :(.

The new Samsung/Sony Plant was completed 2-3 months ahead of schedule thus what they thought would be Holiday becomes sooner and the Holidays is not that far off truly and I listed the production schedule for a Asian press release last month where they listed the production levels that started in early July with test distribution quota's first - the distribution time lag is about 30 days and of course it doesn't mean N. America gets the first batch - I suspect first distributiojn may take place in Korea.

Last year when the 57" debuted it had 30 day exclusivity with Mag Stores and then became available at others in the marketplace. I would expect the street to command close to whatever the Toshiba can pull in or the current 57" Samsung which cannot be bought on-line as they are prepping to transition to the new but unlikely you may see it under $6K IMO for awhile since they have so little competition in that size for LCD just as Sharp has next to none in the 65" and they've held MSRP on it dating back to October 2006 on the previous version and then they raised it on the current one.

Your budget sounds more prone to a XBR5 70" SXRD now that should street sweetly in that region but it may be awhile before we see 70" LCD's at Joe Consumer levels to the disdain of many. I know how you feel as 70" LCD is my dream but the pricing is in the lotto winners zone for now. :cool:

I think you're right. I think it'll be a while before we see the 57" 81 series Sammy below $6k for sometime let a lone a 70"er. I would think that aroung this time next year that this new technology will be used by more manufacturers and that larger screen sizes will be available and at somewhat more affordable prices. At some point I'd bet panels will push microdisplays will go out the door just like CRTs got the boot. I really would like to compare the Pioneer and the Sammy as I'd have to guess the Sammy will be a much brighter TV and possibly better black levels but since I swap these things out yearly I need to keep the cost within reason :D.

Yea, who would believe a Pioneer being called a more affordable TV:confused:.

But I've already seen a website (forum sponsored) with the upcoming 60" 1080p model for below $5k with shipping. So yeah, it's a value compared to the Sammy 81s when I'd have to believe it's cost me $2-$3k more :(.

Can you tell me the name of that website with the Pioneer on it?

Are all the different files different versions of the same file (ie they're proof reading it), with the last four digits being the day and month?Apparently, yes. Later drafts have some minor additions to earlier versions. The file ending with 0711 is the last draft, I think.

BTW, what's with all the warnings in the manual about burn in? You can't display a single image for more than 2 hours? Why exactly?

Anyone know if Samsungs ANYNET is the same as any HDMI-CEC, or it this something only compatible with other Samsung devices ? Kinda kills the CEC doesn't it ?

Book says you can daisy chain up to 12 devices via HDMI, able to see the MENU of other devices via TV remote, and even power off all HDMI devices when TV turns off.

However, two mins seems a little extreme.

http://208.190.95.134/anynet.jpg

.

I see that the ABT specs on dimensions seem to be right on in regards to depth.

http://208.190.95.134/specs.jpg


.

Any comments on it's reported 85% color gamut in the spec sheet?

Surely that is a misprint, led's are supposed to be over 100%.

I couldn't find that anywhere in the manual. Maybe I overlooked it.

.

I wonder if the screen on the 81 Series will be shiny like some other Samsung LCD models or whether it will be anti reflective. This is a major issue for me. Does anyone know for sure? Thank you.

I'm getting increasingly worried about an absolute lack of any evidence (and yes, I've done a lot of reasearch on this) of 81 series using BrightSide-patented dynamic backlight technology. More and more it seems like "local dimming" is just what Samsung engineers came up with on their own. Perhaps this explains Samsung's decision to go with 64 clusters instead of individual LED modulation as IMLED model would "definitely" infringe on BrightSide patents. Let's hope this won't turn into another Canon-NanoProprietary kind of mess that might impede the progress of this technology.

I'm getting increasingly worried about an absolute lack of any evidence (and yes, I've done a lot of reasearch on this) of 81 series using BrightSide-patented dynamic backlight technology. More and more it seems like "local dimming" is just what Samsung engineers came up with on their own. Perhaps this explains Samsung's decision to go with 64 clusters instead of individual LED modulation as IMLED model would "definitely" infringe on BrightSide patents. Let's hope this is won't turn into another Canon-NanoProprietary kind of mess that will impede the progress of this technology.

I've also been following this thread for quite awhile, and am also concerned about this. It sounds like Samsung is afraid of patent infringement(with everybody being so sue happy these days).

I hope Samsung starts releasing more details about the 81 series. Being so close to the launch, it seems strange to be so tight lipped.

From Magnolia,Best Buy store in DFW i pre-ordered a 5281 today.The rep. let me in and look at the computer.I looked at whole inventory of 81.It has 26 th august as availability date in warehouse and store availability date as 31st august.He set me up with a delivery date on sept.1 st.

He is pretty sure that it will release as scheduled as their database has extensive info. of all 71 and 81 series sets with availability dates, pricing and quantities.Only a total number of 33 sets will be available for Magnolia stores.This includes Dallas, Houston and i think Austin also.

The 81 series sets are marked as UMPC(or something similar to that).He mentioned that Samsung marked the sets as such so that it should be absolutely sold at MSRP only.And by the count of number of units available it really looks like they will be in very short supply for atleast some time.

They are charging my credit card now only.He said that's the only way a part from the store display he can guarantee a set will be available as he will be booking the set on my name .If the set is delayed or i want to cancel before it ships, they will refund my full amount.

Now the only concern is if this set will be really as good as we wish it will be.I purchased a 4 year extended warranty for 300$. It showed in their system as 600$ but got 50% off on that one and a rewards card for about 110$ in 4-6 weeks.Shipping is free(includes white glove premium service).The 5781 is showing as 8000$ on their website.

From Magnolia,Best Buy store in DFW i pre-ordered a 5281 today.The rep. let me in and look at the computer.I looked at whole inventory of 81.It has 26 th august as availability date in warehouse and store availability date as 31st august.He set me up with a delivery date on sept.1 st.

He is pretty sure that it will release as scheduled as their database has extensive info. of all 71 and 81 series sets with availability dates, pricing and quantities.Only a total number of 33 sets will be available for Magnolia stores.This includes Dallas, Houston and i think Austin also.

The 81 series sets are marked as UMPC(or something similar to that).He mentioned that Samsung marked the sets as such so that it should be absolutely sold at MSRP only.And by the count of number of units available it really looks like they will be in very short supply for atleast some time.

They are charging my credit card now only.He said that's the only way a part from the store display he can guarantee a set will be available as he will be booking the set on my name .If the set is delayed or i want to cancel before it ships, they will refund my full amount.

Now the only concern is if this set will be really as good as we wish it will be.I purchased a 4 year extended warranty for 300$. It showed in their system as 600$ but got 50% off on that one and a rewards card for about 110$ in 4-6 weeks.Shipping is free(includes white glove premium service).The 5781 is showing as 8000$ on their website.

Do you know what the restocking/return policy is if you're not satisfied? I see a lot of places dont charge a fee if the product is in it's original packaging, but I've never "repackaged" a large display and that causes me some concern.

Return policy for 30 days is no charge.If the set is fine without any issues but we are not satisfied with general performance then i think we have to ship it back to the store.If it is damaged set they will replace it free of charge.And as long as it is in warranty it covers all parts and labour.Usually they will send a tech at home but if it cannot be repaired(mechanical problem) they will exchange it for the price of a new one.

hey guys i'm a bb employee and today we had a tech learning and a samsung rep was there confirming the 81 series as a magnolia release on or about the 21st of august this could mean they will receive it on that day and could soon be an active sku

Anyway i think with this large tv's it is always a gamble.I think we just buy and pray it works as we hope.If it is damaged or has issues no problem, free exchange but if it is working fine and we are not satisfied then the trouble starts.

Wife stopped talking with me since i bought this.She is totally :mad: that i ordered it without even looking at one.Now if it does not work in all the ways i praised about this thing with her, she will kill me.

hey guys i'm a bb employee and today we had a tech learning and a samsung rep was there confirming the 81 series as a magnolia release on or about the 21st of august this could mean they will receive it on that day and could soon be an active sku

Hey, since you're a BB employee, I see the return policy online says special orders are subject to a 25% restocking fee. If we pre-order a set, is that considered a special order? The special order statement contains no mention of any return allowances without a restocking fee.

hmm don't know about that special order restocking fee.Have to check with the rep. tomorrow from whom i ordered the set.Hopefully for my sake there won't be any restocking fee.

as we are being led to believe

haha anyone else catch that. :D

I hear that the 81 series might be held back to due to Sharp's recent filing against Samsung over "LCD patent infringement". Has anyone heard about this?

Hey, since you're a BB employee, I see the return policy online says special orders are subject to a 25% restocking fee. If we pre-order a set, is that considered a special order? The special order statement contains no mention of any return allowances without a restocking fee.

I used to work for BBY and other big box retailers and occasionally still do work in those stores. The special order restocking fee only applies to items that are "special order only". Meaning that they are not carried in store. Since the Sam 81 series will be carried in BBY Magnolia Home Theater stores, the special order restocking fee does not apply. If you bought it at a store that only carries the model as "special order only" and you decided to return it, and it is found there is nothing mechanically wrong with the set, then the restocking fee would apply.

Also I read that the 71 and 81 series Samsungs are going to have the same glossy screen as the 65 series. Disappointed to hear that, while the glossy screen makes the colors pop, it sure detracts from the image with the smallest amount of light in the room.

I hear that the 81 series might be held back to due to Sharp's recent filing against Samsung over "LCD patent infringement". Has anyone heard about this?


I heard the same thing

I hear that the 81 series might be held back to due to Sharp's recent filing against Samsung over "LCD patent infringement". Has anyone heard about this?I thought you were joking but apparently it's true about Sharp suing Samsung. I'm not sure, though, if or how 81 series is related to this story.
http://www.digitimes.com/displays/a20070807PR200.html

I'm getting increasingly worried about an absolute lack of any evidence (and yes, I've done a lot of reasearch on this) of 81 series using BrightSide-patented dynamic backlight technology. More and more it seems like "local dimming" is just what Samsung engineers came up with on their own. Perhaps this explains Samsung's decision to go with 64 clusters instead of individual LED modulation as IMLED model would "definitely" infringe on BrightSide patents. Let's hope this won't turn into another Canon-NanoProprietary kind of mess that might impede the progress of this technology.
BRIGHTSIDE tech developed at the university of BRITISH COLUMBIA CANADA.has already sold the rights to companys to use there tech.......most likely SAMSUNG ,LG,SONY and other have payed into it.

BRIGHTSIDE has already sold the rights to companys to use there tech.......most likely SAMSUNG ,LG,SONY and other have payed into it.It seemed that way at first but there's been no evidence to support this theory.

I thought you were joking but apparently it's true about Sharp suing Samsung. I'm not sure, though, if or how 81 series is related to this story.
http://www.digitimes.com/displays/a20070807PR200.html The patents they are suing over are not related specifically to anything new in the 71 or 81....it started in 2006.

By the descriptions it sounds like it covers every LCD they are currently producing. Suits like this happen all the time in the Semiconductor Industry. Worse case scenerio is Samsung will be paying a royality. But that won't be for years....and years of delays in the courts, with the lawyers, eating up billable hours all the way.

They won't stop shipping....but in their stock filings they will have to put in a note that they are being sued.

And then there will be the patent challenge to prove the patent is valid and that the Samsung are using the same technology. And then they will say there enhancements were obvious and should have never been granted

etc etc

And the lawyers billed more hours

This case will not stop anything for shipping for years at the least

Can you tell me the name of that website with the Pioneer on it?

Yes, can anyone point us to any information on that Pioneer going up against the 81? I'm pretty stuck in LCD tech, but like to check out the competition...

haha anyone else catch that. :D

What do you mean? He spelled it correctly. The past tense of "lead" is "led."

-David

I think it was pun intended he was pointing out.

I couldn't find that anywhere in the manual. Maybe I overlooked it.

.

Not in the latest manual that was posted but on the german specs page

http://www.1staudiovisual.co.uk/catalog/pdfs/SamsungF96.pdf

Also I read that the 71 and 81 series Samsungs are going to have the same glossy screen as the 65 series. Disappointed to hear that, while the glossy screen makes the colors pop, it sure detracts from the image with the smallest amount of light in the room.

That really is too bad. Does a screen with the non glossy surface really have a negative impact on the picture? Aside from certain performance problems that can develop, the Sony LCDs sure seem to have nice picture quality and their screens aren't glossy.

That really is too bad. Does a screen with the non glossy surface really have a negative impact on the picture? Aside from certain performance problems that can develop, the Sony LCDs sure seem to have nice picture quality and their screens aren't glossy.
Yes a non glossy screen is detrimental to PQ. If it diffuses the light hitting the screen what do you think it will do to light coming from the screen? I love glossy screen, I cant seem to figure out why people hate them. I just assume its old geezers with bad eye sight : )

I was just at the BBY at Eaton Centre in Toronto 15 minutes ago. I was staring at a 63" plasma Samsung (FPT6374) and wondering out loud why it wasn't on. Then this lady who happened to be there there took it upon herself to see why it wasn't working. She wasn't too happy that the Samsung wasn't on for me to see, which i thought was odd... but it turns out that she was the Samsung rep! I asked her about the 81 series and she said it would be available in Canada at the end of September / beginning of October. The 57" model would be MSRP $9000 Canadian. I was shocked at the price so I wasn't quite paying attention when she mentioned the MSRP of the smaller models. I recall fuzzily that she said around ~$3500 and $4700 but i forget for which sizes.

I think she was just spitting facts back at me that she memorized off of a fact sheet (perhaps incorrectly). She distinctly said a couple times that the 81 series was 94% of NTSC gammut and it was 25000:1 CR.

At $9000, the FPT6374 is starting to look more intriguing...

So last week I was in the Magnolia HT at the Portland Best Buy and they pulled up the LNT5281f on their computer with a release date and price.
I called last night to check on the restocking policy and the guy asked if I wanted to have him order it, but after a while it was determined they only had the 71 model on their computer...I'm assuming they had redone the data to reflect which stores would be getting what. He told me the 81 would probably only be at the Magnolia HiFi stores, not in the Magnolia Home Theater stores, or at least not his.

Can you tell me the name of that website with the Pioneer on it?
Yes, can anyone point us to any information on that Pioneer going up against the 81? I'm pretty stuck in LCD tech, but like to check out the competition...

Sure, see that "Plasma Concepts" banner near the top page (all those little ads)?
Click on it, and then do the following:

Click on Plasma TV's
Click on Pioneer
Scroll down to the Pioneer PDP-6010FD (ie: 60 inch 1080P TV) and click "Add to cart"
Look at the price.

There are other sites with similar prices too. It's well under $5000 even though the
MSRP is much higher (MSRP is $6500). It's already shipping and one guy in the
plasma forum already has some nice quick pics of it in action. This might give hope to
some 81-series folks that are a bit concerned with the MSRP.

I think it was pun intended he was pointing out.

Oh...right. See, this is what happens when I try to read stuff while I'm still getting the day's coffee inside of me. Heh.

-David

Yes its true--- Sharp is suing Samsung in US Federal court for the Eastern District of Texas.
They picked that court because it has a good history of deciding for the plaintiff in patent cases. Here we go----- maybe Sharp is saying that Samsung has to have banding on their panels if Samsung uses Sharp patents!

I was just at the BBY at Eaton Centre in Toronto 15 minutes ago. I was staring at a 63" plasma Samsung (FPT6374) and wondering out loud why it wasn't on. Then this lady who happened to be there there took it upon herself to see why it wasn't working. She wasn't too happy that the Samsung wasn't on for me to see, which i thought was odd... but it turns out that she was the Samsung rep! I asked her about the 81 series and she said it would be available in Canada at the end of September / beginning of October. The 57" model would be MSRP $9000 Canadian. I was shocked at the price so I wasn't quite paying attention when she mentioned the MSRP of the smaller models. I recall fuzzily that she said around ~$3500 and $4700 but i forget for which sizes.

I think she was just spitting facts back at me that she memorized off of a fact sheet (perhaps incorrectly). She distinctly said a couple times that the 81 series was 94% of NTSC gammut and it was 25000:1 CR.

At $9000, the FPT6374 is starting to look more intriguing...

Sounds like she mixed up the specs with the 71 series.

Yes a non glossy screen is detrimental to PQ. If it diffuses the light hitting the screen what do you think it will do to light coming from the screen? I love glossy screen, I cant seem to figure out why people hate them. I just assume its old geezers with bad eye sight : )Ha, Ha, Ha. What a load of unmitigated BUNK. Just check out the Sharp d92. Yea, it has crap banding, but besides that, the pic is at the very top of the LCD world. Nothing else has lower black levels. The Sharp matte finish is at the top of the heap, not detrimental I would say.

Many people have come to LCD because plasma does not work for them. One of the 2 primary reasons is plasma glare. Yea there are a few plasma converts that are coming to LCD and some that are coming off an old CRT, so they are not as hostile to glare. They also seem to be observationally challenged (:D) in that they claim magical properties such as glare disappears when the TV is on or they just do not notice it. So on the contrary, the keen observers easily recognize glare problems, be they young or old.

So if you want to watch your room or yourself when a patch of dark image hits a glossy screen, or if you want to watch in a dark cave, GLOSSY CRAP is for you. Can you figure it out now :D ???

http://img238.imageshack.us/img238/2752/lnt4665ffromleftcableth7.jpg

I come from Plasma, and will never buy matte screen. It just doesn't do it for me. To each his own - great that we have a competitive market, and there are plenty of both screen types.

I'm getting increasingly worried about an absolute lack of any evidence (and yes, I've done a lot of reasearch on this) of 81 series using BrightSide-patented dynamic backlight technology. More and more it seems like "local dimming" is just what Samsung engineers came up with on their own. Perhaps this explains Samsung's decision to go with 64 clusters instead of individual LED modulation as IMLED model would "definitely" infringe on BrightSide patents. Let's hope this won't turn into another Canon-NanoProprietary kind of mess that might impede the progress of this technology.

Turing on the LightSmart Demo is going to be the best way to tell what is happening on the 81s backlight. LightSmart is the control for turning on/off the local dimming feature.

The folks at Brightside claimed that any dimming of the backlight of a LCD panel would infringe on their patents. It would be up to Dolby Labs to pursue patent infringement if Samsung did not license the technology for the 81s.

Ha, Ha, Ha. What a load of unmitigated BUNK. Just check out the Sharp d92. Yea, it has crap banding, but besides that, the pic is at the very top of the LCD world. Nothing else has lower black levels. The Sharp matte finish is at the top of the heap, not detrimental I would say.

Many people have come to LCD because plasma does not work for them. One of the 2 primary reasons is plasma glare. Yea there are a few plasma converts that are coming to LCD and some that are coming off an old CRT, so they are not as hostile to glare.So on the contrary, the keen observers easily recognize glare problems, be they young or old.

So if you want to watch your room or yourself when a patch of dark image hits a glossy screen, or if you want to watch in a dark cave, GLOSSY CRAP is for you. Can you figure it out now :D ???


In some form or another ive been in the TV biz for years so the defects of a tv normally stand out very easily to me. Glossy screen is fine for some people if it fits their living conditions, but not mine. Even if i had a dark room I wouldnt get a glossy screen, makes everything look unnatural. Im all for a great picture and excellent color, but not when it gets to the point when everything on tv looks fake. Plus even in a dark room the glossy screen on the 65 series still has a sheen to it, undoubtedly the 81 will too.

I thought you were joking but apparently it's true about Sharp suing Samsung. I'm not sure, though, if or how 81 series is related to this story.
http://www.digitimes.com/displays/a20070807PR200.html

Looking at the patents listed in this article it sounds like all current Samsung LCDs (not just 71s & 81s) are subject to these patents. I would not expect any delays in shipment because of this lawsuit. Sharp is just making a play to force Samsung to pay licensing fees for these patents. It looks like it will in no way effect current shipment of the 71s and 81s.

Anybody in Canada find out the SKU numbers for the 81series yet?
@best buy \ futureshop

Ha, Ha, Ha. What a load of unmitigated BUNK. Just check out the Sharp d92. Yea, it has crap banding, but besides that, the pic is at the very top of the LCD world. Nothing else has lower black levels. The Sharp matte finish is at the top of the heap, not detrimental I would say.

Many people have come to LCD because plasma does not work for them. One of the 2 primary reasons is plasma glare. Yea there are a few plasma converts that are coming to LCD and some that are coming off an old CRT, so they are not as hostile to glare. They also seem to be observationally challenged (:D) in that they claim magical properties such as glare disappears when the TV is on or they just do not notice it. So on the contrary, the keen observers easily recognize glare problems, be they young or old.

So if you want to watch your room or yourself when a patch of dark image hits a glossy screen, or if you want to watch in a dark cave, GLOSSY CRAP is for you. Can you figure it out now :D ???

http://img238.imageshack.us/img238/2752/lnt4665ffromleftcableth7.jpg


Maybe I am just a bit slow, but I can't tell what the point of this picture is supposed to be; there is a big lamp in the middle of it blocking my view. How do you expect us to make a judgment on whether glossy screen is better than matte if you just go ahead and put a lamp between your camera and the TV??? Besides, no one ever has a lamp in the same room that they watch TV in, do they???

(in case you cannot tell, there is a hint of sarcasm in parts of my above post)

... please delete the paranthetical phrase, it is insulting :D :D ...

Marks back :D Hey buddy, you are freaking hilarious. Mark has known that the 81 series is glossy for many a page and has said that he would NEVER buy a glossy screen. Yet, here he is again complaining about the same thing again. Why do you continue to read and post in this thread? OBVIOUSLY the 81 is not for you so bugger off. How, many times does this stupid topic come up? Well, by my count it's about 4 times you've brought this up and now we have to dedicate another 3-4 pages of glossy talk before Mark leaves and comes back in about 10 pages or so time to bring back the same topic! If you don't believe me then read the thread from the start. Mark really has to get out more.

Also, because it's been brought up again. I much prefer the glossy screen. The 65 has very deep black and the colours POP much more then the dull looking 92u banded crapfest of a TV.

Gloss is not going away Mark. So, maybe it's time you do.

Mark is a hopeless individual who believes his constant spamming of glossy screens on this forum will somehow persuede samsung to never cross this sacred line again. Given the choice i would choose matte over gloss but it's obviously not my decision.

You keep fighting the good fight sir !!!


http://www.shirtrocker.com/catalog/20070963_tp_31_1.jpg

I used to work for BBY and other big box retailers and occasionally still do work in those stores. The special order restocking fee only applies to items that are "special order only". Meaning that they are not carried in store. Since the Sam 81 series will be carried in BBY Magnolia Home Theater stores, the special order restocking fee does not apply. If you bought it at a store that only carries the model as "special order only" and you decided to return it, and it is found there is nothing mechanically wrong with the set, then the restocking fee would apply.


Not true. I pre-ordered a Sharp LCD early from last year & didn't like it so I returned it & they applied the 25% restocking fee!
The set I returned was selling as an open box on the floor the next day.

That same Sharp LCD was still in their computer, but they started to only carry it in-store about a month after I returned my set.

So expect a massive huge restocking fee if you return the set.

Mark I hate to burst your bubble but your Sharp is actually Limburger....
SAMMY ALL THE WAY....

Marks back :D Hey buddy, you are freaking hilarious. Mark has known that the 81 series is glossy for many a page and has said that he would NEVER buy a glossy screen. Yet, here he is again complaining about the same thing again. Why do you continue to read and post in this thread? OBVIOUSLY the 81 is not for you so bugger off. How, many times does this stupid topic come up? Well, by my count it's about 4 times you've brought this up and now we have to dedicate another 3-4 pages of glossy talk before Mark leaves and comes back in about 10 pages or so time to bring back the same topic! If you don't believe me then read the thread from the start. Mark really has to get out more.

Also, because it's been brought up again. I much prefer the glossy screen. The 65 has very deep black and the colours POP much more then the dull looking 92u banded crapfest of a TV.

Gloss is not going away Mark. So, maybe it's time you do.

And he said I was a bit over the top when I said he constantly complained about gloss :rolleyes:. His trolling never ends.

Not true. I pre-ordered a Sharp LCD early from last year & didn't like it so I returned it & they applied the 25% restocking fee!
The set I returned was selling as an open box on the floor the next day.

That same Sharp LCD was still in their computer, but they started to only carry it in-store about a month after I returned my set.

So expect a massive huge restocking fee if you return the set.

Thats because you returned it before it was carried in store. If it wouldve been returned when they carried the model in store then there would not have been.

I have to apologize for bringing up the glossy vs. non-gloss issue. Apparently, it had already been discussed. I had skimmed the thread but it seems not carefully enough.

I'm just frustrated that non-gloss is my preference and I can't seem to find a truly high end set with non-gloss that's larger than 52". (I just don't consider the pictures I've seen from the various DLPs and LCOSs to be in the class of the LCDs or even plasmas. I'm really hooked on LCDs.)

Mark is not the only one that will not get this TV because it is glossy, but we still check out this thread and post on it because this should be a great advance for LCDs gloss or no gloss.

Others manufactures will come out with them too and if Samsung does not come out with a matt screen I will go with some one else. Hopefully others will learn by any mistakes that the 81 has and make theirs better.

I like Samsung I have 2 of there LCDs now and got my mom a Samsung PDP but really if I could live with reflections I would get a PDP.

Mark is not the only one that will not get this TV because it is glossy, but we still check out this thread and post on it because this should be a great advance for LCDs gloss or no gloss.

Others manufactures will come out with them too and if Samsung does not come out with a matt screen I will go with some one else. Hopefully others will learn by any mistakes that the 81 has and make theirs better.

I like Samsung I have 2 of there LCDs now and got my mom a Samsung PDP but really if I could live with reflections I would get a PDP.

I respect that people have different preferences on this issue, but I just wish there was an option for we non-gloss folks.

am i the only one who is afraid that europe will get screwed (again) by only getting the BIG sizes that no mortal man can put in his medium sized living room?

I respect that people have different preferences on this issue, but I just wish there was an option for we non-gloss folks.

And I agree. I want to replace my old Sony CRT with a matte LCD because my living room is total windows with no light control. My serious theater is in a separate light-controlled room with a 14' wide screen. I just wish people would realize that not everyone has exactly the same needs and that this refection issue is not trivial to all.

Just pre-ordered one of the 52 inch 81 series glossssssy sets...mmm...gloss!
Magnolia Beaverton, OR has 8/31 on their computers, have no restocking fee and were pretty cool to boot. They had 22 sets to arrive and said they'd had an unusual amount of calls on the 81's. They also had no idea why, or what the set boasted for features, so I guess their Samsung Rep hadn't been by yet.

(And just because I love abuse, I personally dont care if the light bouncing back from my room is sharp specular reflections or dull, diffuse reflections, I'm still getting the same amount of light reflected, what I care about is if I'm getting sharp transmitted light or dull, diffuse transmitted light from the TV. To each their own!)

Ha, Ha, Ha. What a load of unmitigated BUNK. Just check out the Sharp d92. Yea, it has crap banding, but besides that, the pic is at the very top of the LCD world. Nothing else has lower black levels. The Sharp matte finish is at the top of the heap, not detrimental I would say.

Many people have come to LCD because plasma does not work for them. One of the 2 primary reasons is plasma glare. Yea there are a few plasma converts that are coming to LCD and some that are coming off an old CRT, so they are not as hostile to glare. They also seem to be observationally challenged (:D) in that they claim magical properties such as glare disappears when the TV is on or they just do not notice it. So on the contrary, the keen observers easily recognize glare problems, be they young or old.

So if you want to watch your room or yourself when a patch of dark image hits a glossy screen, or if you want to watch in a dark cave, GLOSSY CRAP is for you. Can you figure it out now :D ???

http://img238.imageshack.us/img238/2752/lnt4665ffromleftcableth7.jpg
If that were a matte sceen the light would be still be on the screen, only instead of being localized so a change in position could easily put it out of view, it would be diffused over the whole screen. Now Im not saying people are wrong for prefering matte screens, just saying they do have a purpose and in a comparison of 2 exact same tvs, one being glossy and the other matte, the gloss screen will have better pq.

Thats because you returned it before it was carried in store. If it wouldve been returned when they carried the model in store then there would not have been.


That's the thing, the date Besy Buy's wherehouse's will get the Samsung is August 28, but it could be months before any of the local stores decide to bring them in.

So you can pre-order, wait on the last 30th day to return it & find out that they still aren't being carried at that Best Buy & get a 25% restocking fee on a $7,000 TV! :eek: :eek: :eek:

I was just watching some basketball (ESPN HD) on my 4065 and noticed the striping on the court (and some other details) would pixelate when the camera followed the action from one end of the court to the other. When the camera stopped, the stripping appeared smooth. Is this something the 71 and 81 is supposed to 'fix'?

Still pondering whether I should return my set ...

TIA

Just a quick question for the thread to make sure I'm not missing anything: is there any reason to expect that the 81 series will not perform as well as the 65 series for gaming? I've looked through the specs and nothing has jumped out at me, but I wanted to make sure. :)

Just a quick question for the thread to make sure I'm not missing anything: is there any reason to expect that the 81 series will not perform as well as the 65 series for gaming? I've looked through the specs and nothing has jumped out at me, but I wanted to make sure. :)

Since there's so much untested (by consumers) tech in the 81 it's not safe to assume anything. I'm sure AVS forum will have initial impressions by the first people to get it, I'll post my findings (assuming it ships and I get it before the masses) but I was waiting for GTA4 to get a game system so I couldn't test that.

If that were a matte sceen the light would be still be on the screen, only instead of being localized so a change in position could easily put it out of view, it would be diffused over the whole screen. Now Im not saying people are wrong for prefering matte screens, just saying they do have a purpose and in a comparison of 2 exact same tvs, one being glossy and the other matte, the gloss screen will have better pq.The scattering angle is diffuse for matte, making objects far less intrusive and not imaged by the eye such as the lamp above. Also, matte can actually absorb ambient. You are right, they both serve a purpose. If you watch in a dark room a lot, glossy is a good choice. Otherwise, its a problem as pictured above. The picture does not lie.

I was just watching some basketball (ESPN HD) on my 4065 and noticed the striping on the court (and some other details) would pixelate when the camera followed the action from one end of the court to the other. When the camera stopped, the stripping appeared smooth. Is this something the 71 and 81 is supposed to 'fix'?

Still pondering whether I should return my set ...

TIANot likely! What you seem to be describing is MPEG2 compression macro-blocking artifacts from the source. No TV can correct that. If it occurred all the time on different sources then it could be a TV problem. Do you ever see this on commercial DVDs?

How, many times does this stupid topic come up? Well, by my count it's about 4 times you've brought this up ... Mark really has to get out more.

Also, because it's been brought up again. I much prefer the glossy screen. The 65 has very deep black and the colours POP much more then the dull looking 92u banded crapfest of a TV.
Yea, when someone brings it up I respond. Just carrying the torch for the matte fans. I would have responded earlier but was out with the lady having some sake and sushi. Sorry, but even though I now own several Sammy 61's, the 4061 is now my computer monitor, the d92 is still at the very top of the heap and you know it :p :p .

Not likely! What you seem to be describing is MPEG2 compression macro-blocking artifacts from the source. No TV can correct that. If it occurred all the time on different sources then it could be a TV problem. Do you ever see this on commercial DVDs?

I haven't noticed this on DVD content. I'm new (a few weeks) to all things HD. The term macro-blocking in itself sounds like what I'm describing. Basically, lines or areas of the picture become, to use a computer graphics term, pixelated. Portions of the image appears as fuzzy blocks rather than clear and refined. I just assumed this wouldn't be an issue with HD content. Likewise, I thought Verizon's fiber service (Fios) was supposed to bypass compression issues due to it's high bandwidth capabiliites.

The reason that the 65 series looks so damn good is because of the glossy screen. IT is the exact same panel as the 61 but nobody wood argue that the 65 looks better then the 61. It's the gloss baby!. However, I am surprised that Samsung does not release 2 versions of the 71 and 81 series like they did with the 61 and it's glossy cousin the 65. I will admit that the sharp has the deepest blacks of any LCD EVER. But, the colours don't pop like they do with the 65, and they REALLY need to get their QC up and get rid of the BANDING to be a real player. I do wonder what tech Sharp is using on their Mega Contrast 1 000 000:1 LCD. For me personally, the gloss gives me a hard on. It gives LCD the POP that I have only seen on a good plasma. I guess Samsung is going after the hardcore market that either has a dedicated theater room(me) or to people that can afford 20 dollar black out blinds.

Well Samsung left me out because, well ... I cannot afford $20 blinds :p .

I think you meant to say "no one would argue that the 61 looks better than the 65" , but I do argue this in a well lit room, and so does Katzmeier over at CNET in his review of the 4661. Did you read that review? It seems well thought out to me.

I agree with you on the Sharp QC, seems to be crap lately and not just the banding. But I do feel the Sharp out "pops" the Sammy, but I guess that's somewhat subjective.

Most BB's here in miami won't let you pre order items .... There have been several situations with shipment delays or defects that makes a customer return a sale (with some installation attached) because of missing a promised date. SO if they let you pre order it .... Dale, go for it. But, the 81 coming for you might have been damaged in shipping.

As for restocking fees, i dont think its written in stone. My store wouldnt charge it, but some retail managers aare money hungry, and take advantage of it.

We didnt charge a restocking fee for a online order, that was a ijoy massage chair (which isnt available in a best buy for about 200 miles away), which was cleary open and used for a couple days.

As far as discounts at BB, unless your an employee (that might not even happen), your probably out of luck. For the past year or so, we have had a promotional offer called HD Advantage. For the last 3 months(maybe more), it has clearly stated (in fine print) that this offers cover all tvs 999 and above , except the 71, 81, and 94 series samsungs.

When HD TIVO came out at 799, cost was 799, so we got no discount. a couple weeks later, we could get it for 540.

You gotta love retail.


You could make a fortune hijacking a BB truck caring 10 + 81's....

torreeetttoooooo

Just a quick question for the thread to make sure I'm not missing anything: is there any reason to expect that the 81 series will not perform as well as the 65 series for gaming? I've looked through the specs and nothing has jumped out at me, but I wanted to make sure. :)

On paper the 81 series should perform much better for gaming. There should be reduced black crush and LED motion plus to reduce motion blur. The biggest unknown, does the new tech increase source to screen lag? If so by how much?

I do wonder what tech Sharp is using on their Mega Contrast 1 000 000:1 LCD.

Where did you get that number from?

If that were a matte sceen the light would be still be on the screen, only instead of being localized so a change in position could easily put it out of view, it would be diffused over the whole screen.

Really?


http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h98/tower101/2.jpg

This is an older LCD next to a new PDP. Now a glossy LCD would not be as washed out as the PDP but the LCD matt is not all that bothered by the sun or the flash of the camera. You can see the reflections in the frame of the LCD but not one the screen.

The scattering angle is diffuse for matte, making objects far less intrusive and not imaged by the eye such as the lamp above. Also, matte can actually absorb ambient. You are right, they both serve a purpose. If you watch in a dark room a lot, glossy is a good choice. Otherwise, its a problem as pictured above. The picture does not lie.

Jeez mark are you still at it with the anti glare crusade?? Fighting the good fight I suppose. lol

Really?


http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h98/tower101/2.jpg

This is an older LCD next to a new PDP. Now a glossy LCD would not be as washed out as the PDP but the LCD matt is not all that bothered by the sun or the flash of the camera. You can see the reflections in the frame of the LCD but not one the screen.

yeah but you are pointing the most noticeable thing in that picture, the flash, DIRECTLY at the glossy TV, be fair and turn it off, or point it in the middle ground at neither TV.

Yea, when someone brings it up I respond. Just carrying the torch for the matte fans. I would have responded earlier but was out with the lady having some sake and sushi. Sorry, but even though I now own several Sammy 61's, the 4061 is now my computer monitor, the d92 is still at the very top of the heap and you know it :p :p .

the 92 coulda and woulda kicked ass if it were banding free so its a moot point, and yes I once owned that tv, heartbreaking that it had such a dirty pic due to banding. The 4665 owns it.

yeah but you are pointing the most noticeable thing in that picture, the flash, DIRECTLY at the glossy TV, be fair and turn it off, or point it in the middle ground at neither TV.

Ya the flash has a lot to do with the windows LOL

I was pointing out that EVEN the flash did not bother it much. The camera was pointed right BETWEEN the 2 TVs that's way they are centered in the image :rolleyes:

If any thing, because of the angle it is pointed more at the LCD.

Since we're talking about glare, since the 65 is on a swivel and I'm assuming the 71 and 81 series will be too, if the light source is coming from one side instead of in front of the tv, can you signficantly reduce the glare by rotating the tv a little?
__________
| TV
*|
|_________


Suppose the * is a large window, and you turn the tv towards slightly toward the right? Anyone with the samsung have a pic of that?

Since we're talking about glare, since the 65 is on a swivel and I'm assuming the 71 and 81 series will be too, if the light source is coming from one side instead of in front of the tv, can you signficantly reduce the glare by rotating the tv a little?
__________
| TV
*|
|_________


Suppose the * is a large window, and you turn the tv towards slightly toward the right? Anyone with the samsung have a pic of that?

I window on the side "should" not be a big problem. Mostly it is only light directly facing the TV that will give you problems.

The PDP in my pic went to my mom and she has a large bay window to the left of the TV, for the most part no problem at all.

The reason that the 65 series looks so damn good is because of the glossy screen. IT is the exact same panel as the 61 but nobody wood argue that the 65 looks better then the 61. It's the gloss baby!. However, I am surprised that Samsung does not release 2 versions of the 71 and 81 series like they did with the 61 and it's glossy cousin the 65. I will admit that the sharp has the deepest blacks of any LCD EVER. But, the colours don't pop like they do with the 65, and they REALLY need to get their QC up and get rid of the BANDING to be a real player. I do wonder what tech Sharp is using on their Mega Contrast 1 000 000:1 LCD. For me personally, the gloss gives me a hard on. It gives LCD the POP that I have only seen on a good plasma. I guess Samsung is going after the hardcore market that either has a dedicated theater room(me) or to people that can afford 20 dollar black out blinds.

FYI Samsung didn't release a 52" 61 series.

Jeez mark are you still at it with the anti glare crusade?? Fighting the good fight I suppose. lolHey freak, well what else do we know about the way this thing looks (the 81)? All we know right now is that it is boxy and glossy and that Sammy posts fake matte screen pics of these things. Ha, this thing is so friggin ugly its funny :D.

Hey freak, well what else do we know about the way this thing looks (the 81)? All we know right now is that it is boxy and glossy and that Sammy posts fake matte screen pics of these things. Ha, this thing is so friggin ugly its funny :D.
GO AWAY! I think marks just jealous that the gloss doesn't work for him. He knows sammy is at the top of thier game right now other wise he wouldn't be here crying. It's not like there is only ONE tv in the world. We know you dislike gloss and you are sleeping with sharp. So go buy a matte screen lcd. WHY ARE YOU STILL HERE CRYING?

I think if you love the gloss, it'll love you back. I've never felt that from matte, and doubt I ever will. Mark - you need to feel the love.

18 days until BB warehouse delivery.

Sharps Mega Contrast LCD with a "stated" 1 000 000:1 contrast was shown at CES and was considered pretty amazing. This tech is not yet being used in any Sharp right now. Im just wondering if they are also using LED backlighting on that model.

Mark. Instead of wasting your time posting complaints about glossy screens. Why don't you start an online petition or email Samsung directly. This way maybe they will release a non-glossy version for you. Complaining here won't do you any good in getting what you want.

The reason that the 65 series looks so damn good is because of the glossy screen. IT is the exact same panel as the 61 but nobody wood argue that the 65 looks better then the 61. It's the gloss baby!. However, I am surprised that Samsung does not release 2 versions of the 71 and 81 series like they did with the 61 and it's glossy cousin the 65. I will admit that the sharp has the deepest blacks of any LCD EVER. But, the colours don't pop like they do with the 65, and they REALLY need to get their QC up and get rid of the BANDING to be a real player. I do wonder what tech Sharp is using on their Mega Contrast 1 000 000:1 LCD. For me personally, the gloss gives me a hard on. It gives LCD the POP that I have only seen on a good plasma. I guess Samsung is going after the hardcore market that either has a dedicated theater room(me) or to people that can afford 20 dollar black out blinds.

Sorry, but this is not correct. 61 series is 72% NTSC CG and 65 is 92% WCG series.
The glasses may or may not be the same, I do not know (TBC), but panels are definitely different. So the gloss is not the only difference.

Sorry, but this is not correct. 61 series is 72% NTSC CG and 65 is 92% WCG series.
The glasses may or may not be the same, I do not know (TBC), but panels are definitely different. So the gloss is not the only difference.

Can you prove this, because I swear that in the 61/65 thread people actually took the backs off of the TV to prove that they had the same panel.

Hey freak, well what else do we know about the way this thing looks (the 81)? All we know right now is that it is boxy and glossy and that Sammy posts fake matte screen pics of these things. Ha, this thing is so friggin ugly its funny :D.

Why is it funny?

Can you prove this, because I swear that in the 61/65 thread people actually took the backs off of the TV to prove that they had the same panel.

A "Panel" is a combination of glass, drivers, BL. etc. Just check the specs for 61/65 models and notice that 65 has 92% WCG panel and 61 does not.

61/65s share VP and signal processing electronics but have a different setting in the SM.

EDIT: This is my #100 post :)

It's funny because some chowderhead had to design this thing, and to get it so wrong really takes some effort. Sharp learned a while back you don't put speakers on the side. Some of their earlier sets were pretty bad looking as well.

Now the 61 series, that's a great looking design. New Mitsubishi looks good as well.

How to design a good looking flat panel box:

1. Speakers on bottom (set too wide otherwise)
2. Thin bezel
3. Rounded corners
4. Glossy piano black (personal pref)
5. Oval pedestal

Let's see, the 71, 81 series got 1 out of 5, the 61 series 5/5.

It's funny because some chowderhead had to design this thing, and to get it so wrong really takes some effort. Sharp learned a while back you don't put speakers on the side. Some of their earlier sets were pretty bad looking as well.

Now the 61 series, that's a great looking design. New Mitsubishi looks good as well.

How to design a good looking flat panel box:

1. Speakers on bottom (set too wide otherwise)
2. Thin bezel
3. Rounded corners
4. Glossy piano black (personal pref)
5. Oval pedestal

Let's see, the 71, 81 series got 1 out of 5, the 61 series 5/5.

Well, I'll forgive you stating your aesthetic preferences as fact, being a freelance illustrator and animator for 20 years, I run into all sorts of clients that think like that...they generally end up creating some really "interesting" projects.

But what I was getting at, is why do you get personal enjoyment from what you feel (know) is crappy product design?

It's funny because some chowderhead had to design this thing, and to get it so wrong really takes some effort. Sharp learned a while back you don't put speakers on the side. Some of their earlier sets were pretty bad looking as well.

Now the 61 series, that's a great looking design. New Mitsubishi looks good as well.

How to design a good looking flat panel box:

1. Speakers on bottom (set too wide otherwise)
2. Thin bezel
3. Rounded corners
4. Glossy piano black (personal pref)
5. Oval pedestal

Let's see, the 71, 81 series got 1 out of 5, the 61 series 5/5.
OK Mark, be honest if when you actually view one of these and they get your rocks off with what's displayed I'll bet you'll grab one - who could resist a Holy Grail Orgasmic PQ experience despite the asthetics. ;)

Come on, how many of us dated someone that may not been the greatest looker but under the sheets and everywhere else blew your mind like no other and she was a keeper despite her asthetics. Some may have married those women. Many will marry these panels despite what may be to some flawed asthetics.

Damn an SXRD Dumbo RPTV is anything but a good looking TV as far as asthetics and form factor but it's PQ in the sweet spot can kick some butt on that monstrous panel.:D

Marks back :D Hey buddy, you are freaking hilarious. Mark has known that the 81 series is glossy for many a page and has said that he would NEVER buy a glossy screen. Yet, here he is again complaining about the same thing again. Why do you continue to read and post in this thread? OBVIOUSLY the 81 is not for you so bugger off. How, many times does this stupid topic come up? Well, by my count it's about 4 times you've brought this up and now we have to dedicate another 3-4 pages of glossy talk before Mark leaves and comes back in about 10 pages or so time to bring back the same topic! If you don't believe me then read the thread from the start. Mark really has to get out more.

Also, because it's been brought up again. I much prefer the glossy screen. The 65 has very deep black and the colours POP much more then the dull looking 92u banded crapfest of a TV.

Gloss is not going away Mark. So, maybe it's time you do.


Just a point of clarification - he didn't bring up the topic. Someone else did. He responded. The real problem is, people that are new to the forum (in most cases) prefer to waste our time by asking redundant questions that have already been well covered, rather than spend some of their own time reading back in the thread a ways or, god forbid, doing a thread search!

I honestly don't know what some people are talking about. This is a great looking set.

Just a point of clarification - he didn't bring up the topic. Someone else did. He responded. The real problem is, people that are new to the forum (in most cases) prefer to waste our time by asking redundant questions that have already been well covered, rather than spend some of their own time reading back in the thread a ways or, god forbid, doing a thread search!

Well this thread is rather overwhelming and even refined searches will yield lots of inaccurate results. I kinda gets annoying to have questions repeated over and over again, but what is really worse is debating over the same issues without any new information. We know some people like the speakers on the sides and don't mind the glossy screen, and we know some folks have it the other way around. I don't think we need to argue on over every 2 weeks about this though.

And ya VTMS, I don't think the sets looks real bad...

The width is an issue for a lot of folks. If the specs are correct, I may have to look into buying new furniture because this is the first 46" I've considered that doesn't fit in.

I guess we are so close to release that all we can pretty much do now is wait for the first impressions. With the football season kicking in and the release of a few major video games, we may have deals on LCDs coming up that may make me rethink if I want to invest that much premium on this TV... We'll see...

Well this thread is rather overwhelming and even refined The width is an issue for a lot of folks. If the specs are correct, I may have to look into buying new furniture because this is the first 46" I've considered that doesn't fit in.

I'm in the same boat as you. I custom built my entertainment unit to fit the 4665 plus a little give "in case the 81 was a little wider". Yet it's bigger than the 'little bigger' I set aside.

I hope that the extra width is just floating glass or plastic that can be removed with a little modification.

.... but it turns out that she was the Samsung rep! I asked her about the 81 series and she said it would be available in Canada at the end of September / beginning of October. The 57" model would be MSRP $9000 Canadian. I was shocked at the price so I wasn't quite paying attention when she mentioned the MSRP of the smaller models. I recall fuzzily that she said around ~$3500 and $4700 but i forget for which sizes.

I think she was just spitting facts back at me that she memorized off of a fact sheet (perhaps incorrectly). She distinctly said a couple times that the 81 series was 94% of NTSC gammut and it was 25000:1 CR.


Just remembered what the rep also was telling me about the 120hz feature where the extra frame is generated based on the next two frames ahead and one previous .. apparently sharp and sony only examine one frame ahead and it results in a "less smooth picture" than the samsung... hmm...

Mark. Instead of wasting your time posting complaints about glossy screens. Why don't you start an online petition or email Samsung directly. This way maybe they will release a non-glossy version for you. Complaining here won't do you any good in getting what you want.

I thought he wanted attention?

It's funny because some chowderhead had to design this thing, and to get it so wrong really takes some effort. Sharp learned a while back you don't put speakers on the side. Some of their earlier sets were pretty bad looking as well.

Now the 61 series, that's a great looking design. New Mitsubishi looks good as well.

How to design a good looking flat panel box:

1. Speakers on bottom (set too wide otherwise)
2. Thin bezel
3. Rounded corners
4. Glossy piano black (personal pref)
5. Oval pedestal

Let's see, the 71, 81 series got 1 out of 5, the 61 series 5/5.

I'm curious do you spend your time in front of your LCD staring at the frame or the picture being displayed?

Hey freak, well what else do we know about the way this thing looks (the 81)? All we know right now is that it is boxy and glossy and that Sammy posts fake matte screen pics of these things. Ha, this thing is so friggin ugly its funny :D.

It's posts like these that make it obvious there's a troll in our midst.

It's obvious his time is spent waiting for the word gloss to come up so he can complain about the screen. He may say he's really helping people out but all he is doing is sounding like broken record constantly repeating the same jibberish over and over. You've made your point a million times and if you hate the gloss and the look of the set it's obvious you aren't going to purchase the set. And if that's the case then you have no business in this thread. We all have difference in our likes/dislikes but most people who are here are actually interested in the 81 series TV and to make ramblings like this is both incosiderate and childish.

I've been here several years and very few people have made it on my ignore list but it looks like it's time to add another.

The folks at Brightside claimed that any dimming of the backlight of a LCD panel would infringe on their patents.

The Sony XBR2/3 has a feature called "advanced CE" that modulates the backlight dpending on whether the scene is mostly dark or mostly bright. Does this mean Sony is violating Brightside's patent as well?

Yes its true--- Sharp is suing Samsung in US Federal court for the Eastern District of Texas.
They picked that court because it has a good history of deciding for the plaintiff in patent cases. Here we go----- maybe Sharp is saying that Samsung has to have banding on their panels if Samsung uses Sharp patents!


Real backwards state for sure.

Well, I'll forgive you stating your aesthetic preferences as fact, being a freelance illustrator and animator for 20 years, I run into all sorts of clients that think like that...they generally end up creating some really "interesting" projects.

But what I was getting at, is why do you get personal enjoyment from what you feel (know) is crappy product design?First, I get personal enjoyment out of having the 61 series panels and boxes, they are designed very well. The CNET review also explicitly notes the aesthetics of the 4661's design. Read the review.

Now on your comments about clients, of course I do use the words "good looking" which carry some subjectivity. However, there are universals as you should know, for example do you know anyone that considers Rosie O'Donnell better looking than Aishwarya Rai?

Now the Chinese have known for thousands of years that curves are more pleasing to the human mind than sharp edges, the Feng Shui. Then again, not all are thinking this way, so in the end you are right that there is much subjectivity here. Most of the items are related to the use of curves rather than points and the rest are scaling - I'm not a Frank Lloyd Wright (lots of horizontal lines) fan. Anyway, that's part of where I am coming from. If that is bizzare to you, so be it. Agreed, there is an element of subjectivity.

Just remembered what the rep also was telling me about the 120hz feature where the extra frame is generated based on the next two frames ahead and one previous .. apparently sharp and sony only examine one frame ahead and it results in a "less smooth picture" than the samsung... hmm...
Thats an interesting thought. Im going to need to check that out for sure. If you look two frames forward and one back wouldnt you get a worse picture? If you take frame A and frame B on 120Hz then you get the middle frame of AB which gives it a better pic than just A and B. But by going to frame C arent you progressing too far ahead in the frames to get a solid picture? Wouldnt frame ABC be blurry and have a ghost effect?

Sorry, but this is not correct. 61 series is 72% NTSC CG and 65 is 92% WCG series.
The glasses may or may not be the same, I do not know (TBC), but panels are definitely different. So the gloss is not the only difference.

Are you just making this up??

Samsung says that BOTH have 92% NTSC

http://www.samsung.com/us/consumer/detail/features.do?group=televisions&type=televisions&subtype=lcdtv&model_cd=LNT4661FX/XAA

Also the 65 and 61 use the same panel
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10214129&&#post10214129

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10207155&&#post10207155

Samsung also list the panel itself as 92%

http://www.samsung.com/global/business/lcdpanel/productInfo.do?upper_fmly_id=602&fmly_id=607&partnum=LTA460HT

This has been covered many many times try doing alittle research :rolleyes:

If you have some prof then fine but all the available evidence says you are wrong.

Are you just making this up??

Samsung says that BOTH have 92% NTSC

http://www.samsung.com/us/consumer/detail/detail.do?group=televisions&type=televisions&subtype=lcdtv&model_cd=LNT4661FX/XAA

Also the 65 and 61 use the same panel
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10214129&&#post10214129

Samsung also list the panel itself as 92%

http://www.samsung.com/global/business/lcdpanel/productInfo.do?upper_fmly_id=602&fmly_id=607&partnum=LTA460HT

This has been covered many many times try doing alittle research :rolleyes:

If you have some prof then fine but all the available evidence says you are wrong.
My understanding is that they are both 92%. Also you are right both the 61 and 65 series use the same panel.

Remember to at least double those numbers for 81 series. The thing is incredible :D


I have been reading your post in this thread and it seems like you know your stuff. I must admit you getting me excited about checking out the 81 series. I like the idea of display having black hole blacks, pure white snow whites, not cream colored whites ala the 8g and all other plasmas, and great shadow detail.

When will I see this TV on amazon for sale?.

OK Mark, be honest if when you actually view one of these and they get your rocks off with what's displayed I'll bet you'll grab one - who could resist a Holy Grail Orgasmic PQ experience despite the asthetics. ;)

Come on, how many of us dated someone that may not been the greatest looker but under the sheets and everywhere else blew your mind like no other and she was a keeper despite her asthetics. Some may have married those women. Many will marry these panels despite what may be to some flawed asthetics.

Damn an SXRD Dumbo RPTV is anything but a good looking TV as far as asthetics and form factor but it's PQ in the sweet spot can kick some butt on that monstrous panel.:DPretty hilarious post, Westa.

____________________________________________________________ __

General Comments:

I don't know why some around here are so sensitive about negative comments about a piece of electronics, sorry I need some sensitivity training, even have some resorting to personal attacks, name calling, and oh mommy I'm going to put this guy on my ignore list ...

Well anyway soon we'll have something real to talk about in this thread, and there may be more trashing of the set when it is seen, after all, what good is a thread if everyone says "yea this set rocks". We are, after all, vertebrates, aren't we?

I'm glad someone backed me up about the 61/65 panel thing. I thought I was going crazy because I was sure I had read that.

A little off-topic, but I have to mention it: What I hate most about Samsung is that they keep using different names for the european and US models. I somehow managed to memorize that 81/US==F96/EU and 71/US==F86/EU, but the recent comparisons with some 61 and 65 (US) leave me confused and I have to look that up again. I hate that.

The Sony XBR2/3 has a feature called "advanced CE" that modulates the backlight dpending on whether the scene is mostly dark or mostly bright. Does this mean Sony is violating Brightside's patent as well?

That is what Brightside claimed in an interview. I don't have a clue if it is true or not. Even if it is true then it is up to Dolby to prove it in court. Patents get infringed all the time. Most companies don't have the assets to pursue the matter in a court of law. Sometimes companies just have a portfolio of patents just to make themselves attractive to investors. I really don’t know what might be the case here. I could spend the time reviewing the patents filed by Brightside to find out, but I see little point in doing so.

Today's posts on "% of NTSC color gamut" led me to check out the link to Samsung supplied in one post. And I checked a few other discussions on the topic, but still have a question: Do our old color CRTs display 100% of that gamut? And are the 61/65 only "approaching" that with 92% ?

Tried ordering the 5781 from an in-BB Magnolia in the Boston area this evening. No go, but the rep said he'd talk with the district manager tomorrow.

I'm glad someone backed me up about the 61/65 panel thing. I thought I was going crazy because I was sure I had read that.
I'm not sure if there is a difference in color gamut or not, but the 65 Series has 10 bit processing and the 61 Series does not, and the 65 Series also has 15000:1 contrast ratio and the 61 Series has 10000:1. In any case, the 61 Series is not a 65 Series LCD with a matte screen; it is an econo model.

That is what Brightside claimed in an interview. I don't have a clue if it is true or not. Even if it is true then it is up to Dolby to prove it in court. Patents get infringed all the time. Most companies don't have the assets to pursue the matter in a court of law. Sometimes companies just have a portfolio of patents just to make themselves attractive to investors. I really don’t know what might be the case here. I could spend the time reviewing the patents filed by Brightside to find out, but I see little point in doing so.

Yeah, let's just hope that patent conflicts don't once again impede the progress of technology.

I'm not sure if there is a difference in color gamut or not, but the 65 Series has 10 bit processing and the 61 Series does not, and the 65 Series also has 15000:1 contrast ratio and the 61 Series has 10000:1. In any case, the 61 Series is not a 65 Series LCD with a matte screen; it is an econo model.

Really??

http://www.samsung.com/us/consumer/detail/features.do?group=televisions&type=televisions&subtype=lcdtv&model_cd=LNT4661FX/XAA

Samsung says the 61 has 16bit processing I guess that makes the 65 the econo model :rolleyes:

This really belongs in the LN-T thread where all this has been discussed endlessly.

To some it up though the only difference that anyone has come up with is the glass screen and that accounts for the "5000" contrast difference.

Really??

http://www.samsung.com/us/consumer/detail/features.do?group=televisions&type=televisions&subtype=lcdtv&model_cd=LNT4661FX/XAA

Samsung says the 61 has 16bit processing I guess that makes the 65 the econo model :rolleyes:

This really belongs in the LN-T thread where all this has been discussed endlessly.

To some it up though the only difference that anyone has come up with is the glass screen and that accounts for the "5000" contrast difference.
Yes, really. I'm not exactly sure what the small mention of 16-bit processing on the the 61 Series "Features" page means exactly, but Samsung doesn't list it as a differentiating "Feature", like they do with the 10 bit processing on the 65 Series "Features" page. You may have also noticed that the 61 Series LCD's list for about $200 less than the 65 Series LCD's, which makes them more "economical".

Yes, really. I'm not exactly sure what the smal mention of 16-bit processing on the the 61 Series "Features" page means exactly, but Samsung doesn't list it as a differentiating "Feature", like they do with the 10 bit processing on the 65 Series. You may have also noticed that the 61 Series LCD's also list for about $200 less than the 65 Series LCD's, which makes them more "economical".

Its called marketing
The FACT is the only real difference is one has glass one one does not but if it makes you sleep better then believe what you want.

I'm not sure if there is a difference in color gamut or not, but the 65 Series has 10 bit processing and the 61 Series does not, and the 65 Series also has 15000:1 contrast ratio and the 61 Series has 10000:1. In any case, the 61 Series is not a 65 Series LCD with a matte screen; it is an econo model.
The 61s and 65s both have an 8 BIT panel. The 'facts' you read depend on who writes the marketing copy. The 61 series is portrayed with slightly less features than the 65 series.

The set's spec sheet also mentions 10-bit processing, but when we asked Samsung about it, they said that the panel itself doesn't deliver 10-bit color--just that the processing is capable of it. Extra bit depth can result in less false contouring, among other benefits, but like xvYCC color it requires a 10-bit source and display.

from reviewer David Katzmaier at CNET

GO AWAY! I think marks just jealous that the gloss doesn't work for him. He knows sammy is at the top of thier game right now other wise he wouldn't be here crying. It's not like there is only ONE tv in the world. We know you dislike gloss and you are sleeping with sharp. So go buy a matte screen lcd. WHY ARE YOU STILL HERE CRYING?


Do yourself a favor and just ignore the clown. If more people did that, we wouldn't have to see so many responses to his inane ravings.

Its called marketing
The FACT is the only real difference is one has glass one one does not but if it makes you sleep better then believe what you want.
Dude, I would seriously doubt any manufaturer would create 2 entirely different models to distinguish the same LCD with and without a glossy screen or for Marketing purposes, but if that is what you want to believe, I'm not going to argue with you. If the only differentiator was the glass, I would think there would be an LN-T4665FM (Matte) and a LN-T4665FG (Gloss), or something to that effect, and the features/specs would be the same.

Personally I could care less about the 61 and 65 mid-tier models, because I will most likely be pulling the trigger on either the 71 or 81 premium-tier models. Yes, I know the 61's and 65's are currently listed as premiums now, but I doubt they will be listed in that category once the 71's and 81's are introduced.

Does your BB have a Magnolia in it? That may be why. If not, make sure you tell them the model number LN-T4681f or replace 46 with the screensize you want.
They give you a blank look if you ask about the 81 series from Samsung.

So I'm a bit confused. I just came back from a BestBuy on the other side of the country, and they hadn't heard of the 81 series, let along the LN-T4081F. I even got them to call a BestBuy in the town over with a Magnolia center and they hadn't heard of it either. For you people who were able to get Bestbuy to realize that this TV exists, what JuJu did you pull?

The sales people stared at me dumbly because the TV is not on the Samsung Website, on the public BB website, or the private BB website.

I just came back from Tweeters in the Harrisburg, PA area and they told me the 71's and 81's should be in there store at the end of August or the beginning of September. Sorry, but that was as detailed as he would get.

So I'm a bit confused. I just came back from a BestBuy on the other side of the country, and they hadn't heard of the 81 series, let along the LN-T4081F. I even got them to call a BestBuy in the town over with a Magnolia center and they hadn't heard of it either. For you people who were able to get Bestbuy to realize that this TV exists, what JuJu did you pull?

The sales people stared at me dumbly because the TV is not on the Samsung Website, on the public BB website, or the private BB website.
I believe they specifically asked them to check warehouse stock/SKU's, and not just in-store stock/SKU's. These models are not currently available in stores or being advertised on their Web sites, because they are not expected to be available in stores for about another month, and they will probably only be available through high-end retailers like Magnolia and Tweeter, and not through Best Buy, Circuit City, etc.

Dude, I would seriously doubt any manufaturer would create 2 entirely different models to distinguish the same LCD with and without a glossy screen or for Marketing purposes, but if that is what you want to believe, I'm not going to argue with you. If the only differentiator was the glass, I would think there would be an LN-T4665FM (Matte) and a LN-T4665FG (Gloss), or something to that effect, and the features/specs would be the same.



Dude
Believe what you want but the facts are

Both have the same CCFL back light
Both have the same LTA460HT pannel, (-L01 matt,L02 gloss)
Both have the same main board (same VP, inputs and such)
Both use the same firmware
Both have all the same features
Both even use the same owners manual

The ONLY spec that is different is CR and that is because of the glossy screen (it does not defuse the light as much)

Dude
Believe what you want but the facts are

Both have the same CCFL back light
Both have the same LTA460HT pannel, (-L01 matt,L02 gloss)
Both have the same main board (same VP, inputs and such)
Both use the same firmware
Both have all the same features
Both even use the same owners manual

The ONLY spec that is different is CR and that is because of the glossy screen (it does not defuse the light as much)
...and 10bit processing, which brings us back where we started. The End.

So I'm a bit confused. I just came back from a BestBuy on the other side of the country, and they hadn't heard of the 81 series, let along the LN-T4081F. I even got them to call a BestBuy in the town over with a Magnolia center and they hadn't heard of it either. For you people who were able to get Bestbuy to realize that this TV exists, what JuJu did you pull?

The sales people stared at me dumbly because the TV is not on the Samsung Website, on the public BB website, or the private BB website.


I posted the findings from the Best Buy Magnolia Home Theater a while back. They looked up the 81 on their computer and said it was scheduled to be in the warehouse on 8/26/07. I called back a few days later to ask about restocking fees and to see if they could pre-order it. At that time he looked it up and said he found nothing about the 81's, only the 71's. He said that the 81's would probably be at Magnolia AUDIO VIDEO stores, NOT Magnolia HOME THEATER stores!
If you go to Magnolia's site, you will see on the Locate A Store section the two logos shown separately.

http://www.magnoliahifi.com/stores/

I then went to our local, stand alone Magnolia Audio Video, and was allowed to pre-order the 81. It was scheduled on their computers to arrive on 8/31/07.

Sorry for the mix up, but Magnolia HT did have it on their computers briefly. This may not apply to all MHT's in the country, just in this region, but I don't know for sure.

I like the idea of display having black hole blacks, pure white snow whites, not cream colored whites ala the 8g and all other plasmas, and great shadow detail.
Let me put it this way. In theory this might have been your SED replacement if SED had been here. The grayscale (the most important aspect of PQ) on this thing should be good enough to the point where your eyes would be the limiting factor, as go81 said. Technically, this thing is just one step away from a true HDR-class display which is PQ nirvana (next year?).

At this year's SIGGRAPH conference Dolby/BrightSide presented a technique of "inverse tone mapping" called LDR2HDR that recovers HDR (not all of it, of course, but almost enough to fool the eyes) data from your typical LDR input (DVD, HD DVD, TV) in real time. This means that all the past LDR sources would look even better on HDR sets than on best LDR displays (and even Kuros people are raving about are only LDR). The point is HDR will be huge within 1-2 years and 81 Series bridges the gap between LDR and HDR eras.

And, BTW, where is go81?

I respect that people have different preferences on this issue, but I just wish there was an option for we non-gloss folks.


black electrical tape ? could work ... :)

black electrical tape ? could work ... :)

They do sell matte overlays for glossy LCD computer monitors...I would expect finding a 57 inch piece of it may be a challenge, and would probably lead to eflections/refractions, where the materials meet, but who knows :)

...and 10bit processing, which brings us back where we started. The End.

My last post on this as it is like talking to a wall.

They have the same Video Processor the difference is like I and OreoJoe have said MARKETING.

Really is it so hard to admit you are mistaken? :confused:

I posted the findings from the Best Buy Magnolia Home Theater a while back. They looked up the 81 on their computer and said it was scheduled to be in the warehouse on 8/26/07. I called back a few days later to ask about restocking fees and to see if they could pre-order it. At that time he looked it up and said he found nothing about the 81's, only the 71's. He said that the 81's would probably be at Magnolia AUDIO VIDEO stores, NOT Magnolia HOME THEATER stores!
If you go to Magnolia's site, you will see on the Locate A Store section the two logos shown separately.

http://www.magnoliahifi.com/stores/

I then went to our local, stand alone Magnolia Audio Video, and was allowed to pre-order the 81. It was scheduled on their computers to arrive on 8/31/07.

Sorry for the mix up, but Magnolia HT did have it on their computers briefly. This may not apply to all MHT's in the country, just in this region, but I don't know for sure.

This is problematic, as there doesn't appear to be a Magnolia A/V store anywhere in the state of New York, according to the link you provided. Are there any other options for picking one of these up in short order?

I posted the findings from the Best Buy Magnolia Home Theater a while back. They looked up the 81 on their computer and said it was scheduled to be in the warehouse on 8/26/07. I called back a few days later to ask about restocking fees and to see if they could pre-order it. At that time he looked it up and said he found nothing about the 81's, only the 71's. He said that the 81's would probably be at Magnolia AUDIO VIDEO stores, NOT Magnolia HOME THEATER stores!
If you go to Magnolia's site, you will see on the Locate A Store section the two logos shown separately.

http://www.magnoliahifi.com/stores/

I then went to our local, stand alone Magnolia Audio Video, and was allowed to pre-order the 81. It was scheduled on their computers to arrive on 8/31/07.

Sorry for the mix up, but Magnolia HT did have it on their computers briefly. This may not apply to all MHT's in the country, just in this region, but I don't know for sure.
Well, if they're not available at the "Home Theater" stores, it looks like I'll be giving my local Tweeter center my business.

Thats an interesting thought. Im going to need to check that out for sure. If you look two frames forward and one back wouldnt you get a worse picture? If you take frame A and frame B on 120Hz then you get the middle frame of AB which gives it a better pic than just A and B. But by going to frame C arent you progressing too far ahead in the frames to get a solid picture? Wouldnt frame ABC be blurry and have a ghost effect?

Apparently the extra frame ahead helps the tv better predict the rate of motion of the objects on the screen, so that it can create an "AB" frame that would result in smoother / less jerky motion.. i always thought that the extra frame was just either the A or B frame repeated, but if it were that simple wouldn't every tv would be 120hz?

Do yourself a favor and just ignore the clown. If more people did that, we wouldn't have to see so many responses to his inane ravings.
From time to time people bring up the gloss issue, and I respond, particularly when I see denial of its effect on viewing in a typical family room environment. It is an extremely important aspect of an LCD display. Yes, some are regulars here but others come in and begin new discussions and do not have the time to read such huge threads. They have not heard the arguments, and should be given a little slack. Go read the CNET 4661 review, then call him names, since I believe his review is very well done.

I would like to see how the set performs. For such high contrast ratios, it just may be that a glossy screen is the right way to go for this particular model. It seems that Samsung has more trouble getting high CR with a matte screen, based on details elucidated in previous parts of this discussion. Local dimming will probably be a dark room phenomenon and will not be noticed at all in a typical lit living room environment, or perhaps at the margins.

Still, it would be nice if the 81 could be a TV for all needs, with a semi-matte finish like the Sharp d92, usable in bright and dark environments. That is not to be, Samsung has decided to go the glossy notebook PC route. So that is the way it is, that is over. I am over it, but as new people come on board and the topic, a very important topic, arises, I feel some discussion is justified.

Still, what I consider to be worse than inane ravings is an attitude of intolerance to criticism. In science and academia in general, that attitude is untenable. This is the AV Science Forum, and I have to keep bringing this point up again and again, but there should be no excuse for people to try to limit discussion, as long as it is relevant. This topic is very relevant, it has a direct bearing on the performance of the set. Statements against repetition are not an excuse to squelch a voice, rather they are inconsiderate of newcomers who cannot invest the time to read 100 page threads.

I'm in the market for a 52". Was looking at Pioneer plasma but afraid of IR's and
possible burn ins. Sony LCD's have a clouding issue. Sharp has a banding issue.
I just started to look at Samsung in this board and don't see any concerns on banding or clouds with Samsung. Is Samsung free of these problems? Please let me know honestly as this is a lot of $$ to spend then make a mistake.
Thanks
Bob

I'm in the market for a 52". Was looking at Pioneer plasma but afraid of IR's and
possible burn ins. Sony LCD's have a clouding issue. Sharp has a banding issue.
I just started to look at Samsung in this board and don't see any concerns on banding or clouds with Samsung. Is Samsung free of these problems? Please let me know honestly as this is a lot of $$ to spend then make a mistake.
Thanks
Bob

The current Samsungs can have clouding though not as bad as the Sony's can have.

As far as the 71/81 no one knows but I would be very surprised if the 81 had any clouding because of the technology that it will use.

Also the Toshiba LX177 are out there, with an apparent "green push"

This is problematic, as there doesn't appear to be a Magnolia A/V store anywhere in the state of New York, according to the link you provided. Are there any other options for picking one of these up in short order?

I looked at a bunch of states, and it looks like the standalone Magnolia stores are more of a West Coast thing. Since there are apparently NO standalone shops in the east, I would assume they might have a different distribution plan based on the sales region, but I don't know for sure. If not, Magnolia wouldn't be selling a single 81 in half the country, and that seems really silly.
The other option would be another high end dealer like Tweeter, but I'm only familiar with Magnolia out here. There have been posts in this thread mentioning other dealers that should be carrying them.

I looked at a bunch of states, and it looks like the standalone Magnolia stores are more of a West Coast thing. Since there are apparently NO standalone shops in the east, I would assume they might have a different distribution plan based on the sales region, but I don't know for sure. If not, Magnolia wouldn't be selling a single 81 in half the country, and that seems really silly.
The other option would be another high end dealer like Tweeter, but I'm only familiar with Magnolia out here. There have been posts in this thread mentioning other dealers that should be carrying them.

ABT electronics has it listed on their website, but given that this is a completely new, untested set I don't think I'll risk ordering the set online unless I absolutely have to. I'll try getting BB to check their warehouse stock this weekend.