Samsung 81 Series anticipation thread

[slumpey326]

niksem, I just got the xbr4 but am thinking about the 81 series. I put a preorder in for the 81series via BB, but they said I couldnt get it till mid September. I wanted to do a comparison of the two, but may have to get rid of the xbr4 before than if I decide not to keep it. Hopefully the 81 series will come in sooner.

For you BB people (who work there that is), I pre-ordered the 4081f today and was told a 9/14/07 expected delivery. Overall I was 96 in line that is why my date is on the 14th. Do you think there is a chance I will get it sooner. Is this expected date always accurate. I assume these tvs go to a warehouse, which is where I am probably getting it from, but how many tvs does the warehouse get in a an order. Remember I believe these are only going to the BB Magnolia stores, not regular BBs. 95 people all ready pre-ordered ahead of me, that is for the 40in, can you believe that.

I thought nobody would know about the 81series except us people on this forum.

[bplewis24]

A modest proposal:

The set is now on the market, and the first owner reports that he does not have a problem with reflections on his set. Other owners will soon be adding more perspectives, and people can also soon check them out in the stores. What ever problems that reflections may cause, or not cause, is up to individual tastes and judgments.

Why not call a truce, and drop that subject.

Isn't it time to wind down The Glare Bitch Project!.;)

A modest rebuttal:

The first owner reported that he would give the set a higher grade had it been a matte finish.

The pics clearly show that there can be heavy glare on this set under certain conditions. And they also show that this set has incredible potential under other conditions. So let's not act as if this glare issue is insignificant and needs to be swept under the rug.

As long as people don't hijack the thread to harp on the glare (and eventually move on to another TV), I think it's perfectly legitimate to discuss the sets strengths and weaknesses as they are uncovered.

Brandon

p.s. I am a guy that has lurked in this thread and the XBR4/5 thread for a long time, and I am still as of yet undecided, but after seeing those pictures beginning to lean towards the XBR4. In other words, I'm not just a anti-gloss troll.

[DSET]

I know all that. I just want a comparison. Superior technology does not mean that the set will actually look that much superior. I can still return my sony, so that is not a problem for me. Just need to hear from someone who actually seen both sets.


I liked what I saw in 65 series that is why I am following through this thread.

BTW, that space foto can be a little bit misleading. The camera adjust the amperature based on the the brightest object which is quite bright thus the dark background will seem darker. Also, I think gloss is actually good for me since I prefer darker rooms anyways... and it make picture look better. So I am still waiting for someone to post XBR4 vs. 81 comparison. Sony glagship vs Samsung flagship.
True say

Sorry I misunderstood you’re post

I guess we going to have to wait until this thing is properly out.
As of now only farscapekevin has an 81 I don’t know if he’s compared to the XBR4?

I figured you were asking for the obvious because it’s a little early to get a side by side comparison of these sets.

Hopefully we'll se them soon. And yeah you have youre 30day policy if you have the credit you can buy one without returning the other, compare them side by side and keep the one you like best.

I know better technology doesn’t necessarily mean better picture. However with something like the 81series you can assume it will be better because it’s supposed to have 10 times the contrast of any of the other competing LCDs. If you heard the specs in a Skyline compared to a Civic obviously untill you drove it you would assume the skyline is better.

And yeah i know the photos can be misleading, as much as I love and trust user reviews and CNET reviews I have to see it in person to decide if I'm actually gonna buy it. Before I got my 65 all I heard was negativity on the glossy screen and I was ready to get a 61 then when I saw the 65 I loved it I actually like the glossy screen considering I can control the light sources in my room.

[Shaitan]

so, does this set do the 120 hz?

[davidjschenk]

so, does this set do the 120 hz?

Hi Shaitan,

No, it doesn't, but supposedly it does something equivalent to 120Hz based on its use of LEDs for the backlight.

Hope this helps,

David

[xb1032]

A modest rebuttal:

The first owner reported that he would give the set a higher grade had it been a matte finish.

The pics clearly show that there can be heavy glare on this set under certain conditions. And they also show that this set has incredible potential under other conditions. So let's not act as if this glare issue is insignificant and needs to be swept under the rug.

As long as people don't hijack the thread to harp on the glare (and eventually move on to another TV), I think it's perfectly legitimate to discuss the sets strengths and weaknesses as they are uncovered.

Brandon

p.s. I am a guy that has lurked in this thread and the XBR4/5 thread for a long time, and I am still as of yet undecided, but after seeing those pictures beginning to lean towards the XBR4. In other words, I'm not just a anti-gloss troll.

He did mention that the glare in those pics were much more obvious than in person. I saw the 71 series at CC today and I could see glare from above lights on the 71 and the plasmas. But really it was only obvious on black areas of the screen. The lights were high up though and you may have different impressions in your environment and natural lighting at certain times of the day can be really harsh. I think greenlands comments were because some members ran the glossy issue into the ground needlessly.

[valoidr]

I said that in Tweeter yesterday about the 4665F, was due to the bezel being reflective. It sure does look pitch black to me though.Is the bezel a similar type of material as the the previous LCD's[466x's]?

[nervx]

Play a game like gears and let us know if the motion plus does anything to remove the blur.

Also if possible find a place in game where there's a large contrast of bright and dark. Dont move your character and then take a picture without local dimming on and one with it on. I'd imagine it should be possible to see the difference the dimming tech makes by doing this....

[pelowell]

Hi Shaitan,

No, it doesn't, but supposedly it does something equivalent to 120Hz based on its use of LEDs for the backlight.

Hope this helps,

David


Scuse? Every ad I've looked at today advertising these for sale or pre-order says 120hz refresh rate. Check out Vann's and Crutchfield's and Abt's websites. Where do you come by your info? You got me worried now, I was all ready to get one of these bad boys....

[sharpjunkie]

A modest rebuttal:

The first owner reported that he would give the set a higher grade had it been a matte finish.

The pics clearly show that there can be heavy glare on this set under certain conditions. And they also show that this set has incredible potential under other conditions. So let's not act as if this glare issue is insignificant and needs to be swept under the rug.

As long as people don't hijack the thread to harp on the glare (and eventually move on to another TV), I think it's perfectly legitimate to discuss the sets strengths and weaknesses as they are uncovered.

Brandon

p.s. I am a guy that has lurked in this thread and the XBR4/5 thread for a long time, and I am still as of yet undecided, but after seeing those pictures beginning to lean towards the XBR4. In other words, I'm not just a anti-gloss troll.
See that's how it is done with PC. If the tv doesn't work, move on. I too am on a teater totter as to either pull the switch on the amazing crazy price cc has on the 46xbr4 or wait till the 81 comes out. I have no issue with glare at the moment. Saw the 40xbr4 at bb today and it was a great picture. Saw the lnt4671f at CC today and that was beautiful as well. The motionflow or motionplus is a ugly joke on high when watching a blu-ray. Wish I was able to test it out on ps3/360 games and/or HD sports. But yeah I agree with you brandon. Looks like the xbr4 or the 81 is the way to go at the moment. 2 beautiful tv's gloss for one, matte for another.... Oops let me edit that. I meant to say you have a choice. If you want matte get the xbr4, if you want gloss get the lnt71f. I saw both today and they are both very easily comparable. The 81, if delivers as promissed by techs and specs, should be in a league of its own, well for now....

[valoidr]

Here is one review on the Sony 46XBR. Perhaps it will provide some insights and questions that can be brought to bear on the Samsung 81 display.

http://hdguru.com/?p=131LCD in general?

[illdefined]

I was about to drive over to CC and pick up a 46 xbr4 for the new price of 28xx with tax with coupon AAA until I just saw the pics of the 81. Holy Shiza.

LNT4681f = 3999$
4 year service plan = 250$
3 idiots bashing the new 81 set that they have not seen in person and arguing about gloss =priceless

You know who the 3 idiots are, not hard to guess...

1. people who don't have basements or want black-out curtains in their living rooms
2. mark1080p
3. CNET

what do i win?

in case you didn't get it, calling these people "idiots" is well, idiotic. this is a discussion forum, so let people do that. discuss. and last i remember, people here respected CNET's reviews...

[CadJoe]

We still have the question of WHAT is the static ratio for the 71 or 81 ?

[gbmannc]

We still have the question of WHAT is the static ratio for the 81 ?

I don't think it CAN have a static ratio since local dimming is dynamic in nature.

[skyehill]

Here is one review on the Sony 46XBR. Perhaps it will provide some insights and questions that can be brought to bear on the Samsung 81 display.

http://hdguru.com/?p=131

So tired of this HDGuru clown claiming that LCD owners are only after brighter screens. No, genius, we also enjoy that the TVs are generally about half the weight of their Plasma counterparts, use much less power, and aren't space heaters like Plasmas. We also don't have to turn all of our settings down for 200 hours to break our TVs in, nor do we have to live in fear of someone hitting pause on our TVs for too long.

[Shaitan]

"No, it doesn't, but supposedly it does something equivalent to 120Hz based on its use of LEDs for the backlight.

Hope this helps,"

Well, I can take either 120 hz OR anything equivalent really. Anything that would help eliminate any motion blur/ghosting etc in fast movment vid content..... is fine by me. Thx man. I`d like to add that I don`t mind a Glossy screen. My Hitachi UltraVision has 1, and I got quite used it it. hehhhe Manufacturers should realize tho that not everyone likes Glossy.

[CadJoe]

I don't think it CAN have a static ratio since local dimming is dynamic in nature.

If that theory is true, then they wouldn't have given a dynamic of 100k:1 over a period of time.

Yes, the LED's can be on their way up or down on dimming, but you still can pick any FRAME or point in time, and compare CR to the darkest and brightest to come up with a STATIC ratio.


Guess it comes back to response time, which is still 8ms. Or in this case, response time of the LED's to go from brightest to darkest, or the time for the pixels to disipate the backlight being off.

Which is better, a 4ms response time at 60hz, or 8ms at 120hz like the 71 & 81 ?

[valoidr]

I don't think it CAN have a static ratio since local dimming is dynamic in nature.Wonder why it can not be expressed in a range. There needs to be a standard that all mfg should follow when stating contrast. Kinda like mpg standared on new car disclosers? Which ignores wind or no wind, uphill/downhill, ect. Point is there is a baseline for cars. Why not TV's? Where is the EPA?:D

[CadJoe]

Where is the EPA?:D

hehe really, these LED's are emmiting optical radiation of the cornia.

I agree, they ALL need to have the same test to compare apples to apples.

Kinda like the HDMI cables now have a grade called DPL, or Digital Performance Level, with the highest being a 5 for an awesome cable.

[davidjschenk]

Scuse? Every ad I've looked at today advertising these for sale or pre-order says 120hz refresh rate. Check out Vann's and Crutchfield's and Abt's websites. Where do you come by your info? You got me worried now, I was all ready to get one of these bad boys....

Hi Pelowell,

Oh, hey--don't freak out yet. First of all, I think I spoke much too decisively about the 120 Hz refresh rate, because the simple truth is I do not know whether the 81s actually have it or not. I was going on information I read earlier in this thread, especially from one member who spoke with a Samsung rep while at a store.

The *claim* that I have seen quite a bit lately is this: [paraphrasing] "The 81 series displays have 'LED Motion Plus,' which yields motion smoothing that is at least as good as a 120 Hz refresh rate on a CCFL backlit display." So source material filmed at 24 fps, for instance, will, if this claim is true, play on the 81s perfectly smoothly with no hiccups, jitters, or messy interpolations (perhaps at the price of lowered brightness, but given how bright the 81s are, I'm confident that loss can be calibrated out). Anyway, that's the buzz I've read on it. But this is all just buzz until we actually have a chance to see the things in action.

The actual mechanics of how this smoothing is accomplished are entirely beyond me, but it has been suggested that the effect is accomplished by LED blanking between frames (and this sounds plausible to me). At any rate, using LED Motion Plus, *all* of the actual benefits gained from a 120 Hz refresh are supposed to accrue to the 81s. In the next few days perhaps farscaperkevin and any others lucky enough to get an 81 can confirm the presence and effectiveness of this feature.

Hope this helps,

David

[naruto]

Kevin, can you hear any fan noise or buzzing/humming sounds from the tv when the audio is muted?

I returned a previous generation Samsung DLP tv because of loud fan noise and the high pitch color wheel whine that I would hear during quiet scenes. I swore to myself I'd never get a DLP tv again. The 81-series LCD so far looks to be the perfect tv for my use. I'm just hoping that it is quiet enough that it would make for a good bedroom tv.

[HTPC4ME]

Wonder why it can not be expressed in a range. There needs to be a standard that all mfg should follow when stating contrast. Kinda like mpg standared on new car disclosers? Which ignores wind or no wind, uphill/downhill, ect. Point is there is a baseline for cars. Why not TV's? Where is the EPA?:D

Well, we all know what the top end of the range would be: brightness of LED at full power over brightness of LED at minimum power. Since minimum power is off, the top end of the range would be theoretically infinite in a pitch black room.

The other end of the scale, however, would be the hightest white with LED at full power over the lowest black with LED at full power (i.e. no local dimming at all). This would give a measurement closer to the static CR of other LCDs on the market, like the XBR 4, since it would completely eliminate the contrast advantage this TV enjoys over other and would simply be like a normal LCD with an LED instead of a CCFL backlight.

So, the range of possible contrast ratios would be around 2000:1 - Infinity:1.

Unforutnately, you cannot get any useful values out of a range that extends to infinity. The average of infinity and 2000 is still infinity. The median of infinity and 2000 is still infinity. The only useable value from that range is the finite lower value, which is 2000:1. Using that as the display's contrast ratio, however, would be unfair, as it would make the display look no better than any other LCD by disabling its best feature.

I hope this clears up why you cannot really get a static contrast ratio from this display.

[visual insanity]

Sorry if this was already mentioned but I couldn't read this whole thread. I've been looking around the web and the conclusion I've reached is that these 81 models do not have the 120hz technology. This is a little disappointing considering how gorgeous the screenshots look in this thread.

As a matter of fact in checking out some websites they make it sound like you need to choose between 120hz (71 series) and LED technology (81 series) depending on your preferred technology.

Does anyone have a solid link to a website to disprove this?

[davidjschenk]

Wonder why it can not be expressed in a range. There needs to be a standard that all mfg should follow when stating contrast.

Ohhhh mannn, wouldn't that be nice??

I am so sick of the marketing hype and simple dishonesty that ALL these manufacturers are employing when touting their "incredible" and "arresting" contrast ratios.

When we buy these tv's, we do so with the intention of using them in the real world (you know--in our homes), so we ought to be given *real world* performance specs on them. Unfortunately I am convinced that unless a law is passed, the manufacturers will never ever give in here--there's just too much money at stake for them.

[gbmannc]

Sorry if this was already mentioned but I couldn't read this whole thread. I've been looking around the web and the conclusion I've reached is that these 81 models do not have the 120hz technology. This is a little disappointing considering how gorgeous the screenshots look in this thread.

As a matter of fact in checking out some websites they make it sound like you need to choose between 120hz (71 series) and LED technology (81 series) depending on your preferred technology.

Does anyone have a solid link to a website to disprove this?

The short answer is yes, it has 120hz or something as good as 120hz.

[drewde]

Kevin... any new info for us? We are all anxiously awaiting to hear the details!

[HTPC4ME]

Sorry if this was already mentioned but I couldn't read this whole thread. I've been looking around the web and the conclusion I've reached is that these 81 models do not have the 120hz technology. This is a little disappointing considering how gorgeous the screenshots look in this thread.

As a matter of fact in checking out some websites they make it sound like you need to choose between 120hz (71 series) and LED technology (81 series) depending on your preferred technology.


I think the LED technology fixes all of the problems addressed by 120hz. In other words, you won't notice the difference between 120hz and this LED backlight (other than the better color and contrast for the LED set).

Unfortunately I am convinced that unless a law is passed, the manufacturers will never ever give in here--there's just too much money at stake for them.

A law requiring TV manufacturers to adopt a universal standard of measuring contrast ratio? Wouldn't that be a bit too much government regulation?

[visual insanity]

The short answer is yes, it has 120hz or something as good as 120hz.

Thank you kind sir... and that's great news but may I ask what your source was for this nice short answer?

[davidjschenk]

A law requiring TV manufacturers to adopt a universal standard of measuring contrast ratio? Wouldn't that be a bit too much government regulation?

Not for me, no.

For reasons that would take us far away from the thread topic, I happen to *like* regulation. I think we should socialize medicine, I think we should socialize education at all levels, I think we should socialize the entire health care industry (including pharmaceuticals), and I think taxes ought to be raised to the ceiling for high-income Americans (at least as high as they were before Reagan, but probably even higher).

If you want to discuss my reasons for this, HTPC4ME, just private message me sometime and we can get into it. For the nonce, suffice it to say that I do not see where regulated, standardized criteria and testing methods for the specs on displays would do anything but good.

Yours,

David

P.S. Oh, yeah--I totally think the airline industry and, more than anything else on the planet, the LENDING INDUSTRY both should be heavily re-regulated. Ehh--see that? Now you got me started... I'll shut up.

[Karamba676]

So tired of this HDGuru clown claiming that LCD owners are only after brighter screens. No, genius, we also enjoy that the TVs are generally about half the weight of their Plasma counterparts, use much less power, and aren't space heaters like Plasmas.

Bingo. Somehow a lot of "experts" are forgetting that TV is not for just watching movies in a darkened home theater setting.

[drewde]

Not for me, no.

For reasons that would take us far away from the thread topic, I happen to *like* regulation. I think we should socialize medicine, I think we should socialize education at all levels, I think we should socialize the entire health care industry (including pharmaceuticals), and I think taxes ought to be raised to the ceiling for high-income Americans (at least as high as they were before Reagan, but probably even higher).

If you want to discuss my reasons for this, HTPC4ME, just private message me sometime and we can get into it. For the nonce, suffice it to say that I do not see where regulated, standardized criteria and testing methods for the specs on displays would do anything but good.

Yours,

David

Wow... very scary.

[visual insanity]

Bingo. Somehow a lot of "experts" are forgetting that TV is not for just watching movies in a darkened home theater setting.

Try telling that to plasma lovers....they just don't get it. :confused:

[gbmannc]

Thank you kind sir... and that's great news but may I ask what your source was for this nice short answer?

Sigh ok. Long answer. Led doesn't have the same inherent problems that traditional lcds have. This includes motion blur. So whether 81 series is 120 hz isn't really relevant. However there is an option in the menu,reading straight from the manual, that says "Removes drag from fast scenes with a lot of movement to provide a clearer picture." This is the same definition given in the 71 series manual for 120hz.

[visual insanity]

Sigh ok. Long answer. Led doesn't have the same inherent problems that traditional lcds have. This includes motion blur. So whether 81 series is 120 hz isn't really relevant. However there is an option in the menu,reading straight from the manual, that says "Removes drag from fast scenes with a lot of movement to provide a clearer picture." This is the same definition given in the 71 series manual for 120hz.I think the LED technology fixes all of the problems addressed by 120hz. In other words, you won't notice the difference between 120hz and this LED backlight (other than the better color and contrast for the LED set).

Fair enough....this TV looks like it could be the "one" or at least darn near close! I can't wait to see these sets in person...and to think that I was salivating over the XBR4/5 sets. It would be cool if someone could compare these sets side by side. I mean I still have the xbr sets on my radar but these 81 models look incredible! I really need to see these sets side by side before I decide.

[Welshdog]

If you want matte get the xbr4, if you want gloss get the lnt71f. I saw both today and they are both very easily comparable. The 81, if delivers as promissed by techs and specs, should be in a league of its own, well for now.... As much as I think the 81 sounds like a winner the glossy screen probably kills it for me, particularly after seeing the posted images. My living room has windows directly opposite the spot where any display will be installed. The windows have wooden venetian blinds on them and I live in Texas. This means very high ambient levels outside and thus nice contrasty horizontal bands from the blinds. While most of our viewing is done at night (after 7pm or so) we do watch TV and movies on the weekends during daylight hours. Plus even when viewing at night there are generally several lamps on in the room. I was in an Apple store today looking at the new iMacs and was somewhat bothered by the amount of glare I saw. If the 81 is anything like the iMac screen then I think I'm done here. I guess that means XBR4 for me. Just for background I currently watch an old Panasonic CRT which does have glare, but it is not flat glass. Seems like a perfectly flat glossy screen would exhibit a much greater amount of glare. Am I right?

[sharpjunkie]

As much as I think the 81 sounds like a winner the glossy screen probably kills it for me, particularly after seeing the posted images. My living room has windows directly opposite the spot where any display will be installed. The windows have wooden venetian blinds on them and I live in Texas. This means very high ambient levels outside and thus nice contrasty horizontal bands from the blinds. While most of our viewing is done at night (after 7pm or so) we do watch TV and movies on the weekends during daylight hours. Plus even when viewing at night there are generally several lamps on in the room. I was in an Apple store today looking at the new iMacs and was somewhat bothered by the amount of glare I saw. If the 81 is anything like the iMac screen then I think I'm done here. I guess that means XBR4 for me. Just for background I currently watch an old Panasonic CRT which does have glare, but it is not flat glass. Seems like a perfectly flat glossy screen would exhibit a much greater amount of glare. Am I right?

Texas? You shouldn't be worrying about gettting a tv, you should be worrying about getting to high water. I am about to get deployed to texas by FEMA.... RUNNNNNNN

[HTPC4ME]

Bingo. Somehow a lot of "experts" are forgetting that TV is not for just watching movies in a darkened home theater setting.

Hey, if the 81 series is as good as those pictures and farscaperkevin make it look/sound, I don't think plasma fans have any more arguments against LCD. Let's see:

Motion blur - fixed by 120hz and LED BL
Black level - fixed by local dimming
Color reproduction - fixed by LED BL
Glossy screen has better picture - "fixed" (if you call it a problem) by 81 series
Viewing angle - that was fixed a while ago

What does that leave?

Oh, and we still get all of the LCD advantages, too.

[sharpjunkie]

Anyone else think it is wierd that you can walk into best buy or cc and buy a LNTxx71/81f but you still can't find any info on either on best buy or the circuit city website? What is going on. Am I just blind or they are not there?

[Welshdog]

Texas? You shouldn't be worrying about gettting a tv, you should be worrying about getting to high water. I am about to get deployed to texas by FEMA.... RUNNNNNNN The hurricane? I think it's gonna be a miss. Mexico is gonna get pounded. Beside I'm in Austin, on a hill and outside the 500 year flood plain. My friend is a satellite truck operator for network tv news and he is on his way to Brownsville or maybe even Mexico.

My XBR4 will be high and dry, or maybe my 81 if I can get over F.O.G.

(Fear Of Glare):D

[SGMD1]

I don't think plasma fans have any more arguments against LCD.

QFT...good list

[farscaperkevin]

There is no detectable noise from the TV so far, I do have my computer and my ceiling fan on. I will try it in a completely noiseless environment tomorrow. My DVD player is an xbox360. I didn't notice any motion blur after watching Saving Private Ryan, but Ill keep a look out. I work at best buy, so no, I did not pay MSRP. but if you buy a complete home theater, speakers, receiver, install, service plan, etc. You can get it for what I paid or even less. I did not notice any glow or bloom or any thing while watching fifth element, Unlike the pictures would have you believe, but Ill make sure to look for it and tell you if I see it. It may be that only magnolias will have it in stock. a lot of normal best buys without mags are starting to carry high end TVs. The TVs will be in all combo mags/best buys. you can buy one at any best buy regardless of whether it has a mag. you may have to wait for it or go pick it up at a warehouse though. Ill calibrate it later, check for clouding, check the back light array, and check the motion plus and Local dimming later. I did not notice any clouding so far. Thats all of the questions I saw in the thread. If I missed some or you have new ones Ill try to keep up.

[darkninja67]

There is no detectable noise from the TV so far, I do have my computer and my ceiling fan on. I will try it in a completely noiseless environment tomorrow. My DVD player is an xbox360. I didn't notice any motion blur after watching Saving Private Ryan, but Ill keep a look out. I work at best buy, so no, I did not pay MSRP. but if you buy a complete home theater, speakers, receiver, install, service plan, etc. You can get it for what I paid or even less. I did not notice any glow or bloom or any thing while watching fifth element, Unlike the pictures would have you believe, but Ill make sure to look for it and tell you if I see it. It may be that only magnolias will have it in stock. a lot of normal best buys without mags are starting to carry high end TVs. The TVs will be in all combo mags/best buys. you can buy one at any best buy regardless of whether it has a mag. you may have to wait for it or go pick it up at a warehouse though. Ill calibrate it later, check for clouding, check the back light array, and check the motion plus and Local dimming later. I did not notice any clouding so far. Thats all of the questions I saw in the thread. If I missed some or you have new ones Ill try to keep up.

How does it look at night? Or did I miss those pics earlier?
Thanks for doing the legwork dude.

[sharpjunkie]

There is no detectable noise from the TV so far, I do have my computer and my ceiling fan on. I will try it in a completely noiseless environment tomorrow. My DVD player is an xbox360. I didn't notice any motion blur after watching Saving Private Ryan, but Ill keep a look out. I work at best buy, so no, I did not pay MSRP. but if you buy a complete home theater, speakers, receiver, install, service plan, etc. You can get it for what I paid or even less. I did not notice any glow or bloom or any thing while watching fifth element, Unlike the pictures would have you believe, but Ill make sure to look for it and tell you if I see it. It may be that only magnolias will have it in stock. a lot of normal best buys without mags are starting to carry high end TVs. The TVs will be in all combo mags/best buys. you can buy one at any best buy regardless of whether it has a mag. you may have to wait for it or go pick it up at a warehouse though. Ill calibrate it later, check for clouding, check the back light array, and check the motion plus and Local dimming later. I did not notice any clouding so far. Thats all of the questions I saw in the thread. If I missed some or you have new ones Ill try to keep up.

He's back. You know what people want from you right? PICTURES...lol.
FOG Fear of gloss, freakn classic... That word has to be used from now on when anyone mentions the 65/66/71/81

[sharpjunkie]

How does it look at night? Or did I miss those pics earlier?
Thanks for doing the legwork dude.

yeah there are like 16 pics or so all spread out between 6 or seven threads. There are quite a few in a dark room....http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=87489&d=1187552614

[visual insanity]

Hey Farscaperkevin,

How about some gaming shots like Gears!

[farscaperkevin]

Last pic for the night, then I have to go to sleep so I can get to work bright and early.

Good night.

[tonydeluce]

Last pic for the night, then I have to go to sleep so I can get to work bright and early.

Good night.

Is the text real crisp? ( I can't tell from your photo )...

[007craft]

yeah try gears, and/or if you dont own it, play a 60fps game like COD2. If you dont own COD2, you can download the demo for free off the marketplace. Same goes for burnout revenge. Test these games with motion plus on and off, and in the demo mode. The whole reason I didnt buy a 65 series back in april was because I wanted to wait for the 81, which was suppose to cure any sort of motion blur. I always saw the added contrast and better colours as just a bonus. please let us know how the motion holds up

[Karamba676]

I was in an Apple store today looking at the new iMacs and was somewhat bothered by the amount of glare I saw. If the 81 is anything like the iMac screen then I think I'm done here. I guess that means XBR4 for me.

[off-topic]
Get a Mac mini and hook it up to Dell 2407wfp-hc. A much better panel then on iMac..

[on-topic]
Yep, glossy screen will be a no-go for me...

[CadJoe]

Last pic for the night, then I have to go to sleep so I can get to work bright and early.

Too bad it wasn't with the pic of the forum with the BLACK background.

Does everyone know you can change the new layout? Check the very bottom left of the site. Drop down has three style settings.

[reio-ta]

How does the tv look in total darkness? With a complete fade to black scene does it glow like all other lcds or is it so dark you can't see your hand in front of your face like CRT?

[____]

How does the tv look in total darkness? With a complete fade to black scene does it glow like all other lcds or is it so dark you can't see your hand in front of your face like CRT?

CRT

[Pacius]

Kevin, do you have Pioneer 50" KURO PRO-1150HD or 50" KURO PDP-5080HD in the shop, if you do, can you compare Samsung to these two? Pioneer 50" KURO 1080p PDP-5010FD would be even better, but I doubt you have these.

[____]

Kevin, do you have Pioneer 50" KURO PRO-1150HD or 50" KURO PDP-5080HD in the shop, if you do, can you compare Samsung to these two?

81>>>Kuro. Kuro can't do full black screen.

[Norse]

Wow, those are some impressive blcks in those pictures....thing is, I use a 4665f as my computer monitor so the fact they look so good on my screen means my screen is looking that good too....have you guys ever thought of that when looking at a photo of something? Nothing in a photo can look better than what your current display can show. So your current display looks great if you say the photo does.

I also live on the 9th floor with huge windows along the west wall. Glossy hasnt been an issue. The tv is so bright, all I see is what i am watching at the time.

Any way, any shots of the tv itself instead of blackness with a movie in the middle? lol

[acetheog]

run tests on that bad boy! does it deinterlace properly? does the tv properly display 1080p24 sources? any noticable mura? banding? whats the tv sound like? i wanna upgrade the ht and so far word on the street isnt so hot on the xbr4s... spill the beans man! :D

[sharpjunkie]

run tests on that bad boy! does it deinterlace properly? does the tv properly display 1080p24 sources? any noticable mura? banding? whats the tv sound like? i wanna upgrade the ht and so far word on the street isnt so hot on the xbr4s... spill the beans man! :D

Really I heard nothing but hot and seen nothing but hot in person on the xbr4's

[dukmahsik]

hmm 81 series or xbr4?!?!??!

[sharpjunkie]

hmm 81 series or xbr4?!?!??!

Go check the xbr4s at your local BB or CC and let your eyes speak. Then wait till the 81's start to hit magnolia and judge for yourself.

[Zues]

Floating blacks is a plasma issue. Correct term is "poor black level retention" I've never seen a LCD float blacks only plasma. Yes this would be a major concern but I've never heard of it with LCD.


It's actually a panasonic problem, not plasma in general. But if you consider bright scenes on lcd's turning "blue", they certainly fluctuate more than plasmas. What should that be called, Floating blue blacks? :p It will be interesting to see how these samsungs hold up, under extreme conditions, like displaying bright scenes with no blue glow or flucuating blacks.

[johnnybrulez]

Wow at those 81 shots. The photos bring up some concerns I've had about the 81 series tech, but really those shots are wonderful. This TV looks to be what I thought it would be... an LCD-type TV to drool over. The Pioneer Kuros, if your pictures are any indication gots some competition. Thanks Kevin, I can't wait to see one of these TV sets in action. It's either this or a Kuro for my money. Nothing else will do. Would you mind photographing an all black screen in a completely dark room?

[rcxrc]

Regarding the link given last page for the dealer selling the 4681...they are the same ones advertising it again on ebay...search for "lnt4681f" (exactly) and you'll find it. FYI.

Considering I won't have to pay for shipping, adding for sales tax, and having a local BB support the warranty after the mfg warranty expires, I still think I did ok. Pretty close (a c-note or two, max, maybe).

RC

[shuttlex]

farscaperkevin,

thanks for uploading all those photos of your new t-v, although the one showing Bruce Willis should probably have been sent to Buckaroo's quadruple-chins website.

[Warder45]

I don't suppose there is any sort of filter / chemical that would cut down on the glare? Someone in the olevia thread mentioned removing the glass, I wonder if that is an option for 81's. While the pictures don't make it seem as bad, my laptop screen is glossy and it drives me nuts when I can see my reflection in dark scenes.

I wouldn't mind seeing some pictures with the shades closed, lights on, with a dark scene. The pictures before were very colorful, and I've noticed that only when the scene is is dark (like a space scene) can I see my head's reflection on my laptop.

[vtms]

http://i11.tinypic.com/4kth6j9.jpg

Out of all pictures farscaperkevin posted, this one seems most impressive and most telling about this TV's performance. In it, thousands of scattered points of light are surrounded by complete darkness. And yet, there's not even a hint of gray between stars. It's just pure black at every point where it should be black. The blackness of the screen blends perfectly into the bezel. What's even more amazing is that the black regions remain completely unaffected by the incredibly bright explosion right in the center of the screen. If anyone asks, "What's the static contrast on 81s?" someone should send him the picture above and tell him the static CR is huge. The highest to lowest luminance ratio in this frame must be off the charts. In fact, what looks like a white crush in the center is probably just a sign of the camera being overwhelmed by the level of brightness (a common occurrence when pictures are taken of high dynamic range displays). I bet farscaperkevin's eyes saw a perfectly detailed explosion in the center.

Remember that Sharp Mega-Contrast LCD prototype? Below is a picture of that display showing a very similar scene. Notice any similarities between this one and the one above? From where I'm sitting it looks like this kind of quality has just been made available to consumers which is great news for all of us. The "new level" of PQ has arrived.
http://www.blogsmithmedia.com/www.engadget.com/media/2007/01/sharp-mega-contrast-1.jpg

Glow11, you mentioned some tests in Photoshop. Could you please elaborate some more on what tests exactly you are performing and what each one means? Thanks.

[bgates22]

Good news. Sorry if this has been posted already, but the 4681 is now on Amazon. Just search for Samsung 46" and go to the third page. This gives me great hope that there won't be serious price protection on this set.

Edit: looks like it's being sold through a vendor named Vann's. Maybe the appearance on Amazon doesn't indicate potential significant price drops. Also, it indicates that there is only one in stock.

[slumpey326]

will cc carry the 81 series, can someone confirm this?

[glow11]

Glow11, you mentioned some tests in Photoshop. Could you please elaborate some more on what tests exactly you are performing and what each one means? Thanks.

I've discarded most of the tests I did. This one shows 2 methods to dig out artifacts.
The left hand side shows selections constrained to certain luminance amounts. The red zones are 4 or 5 different levels selected and colorized. If the local dimming zones were showing artifacts, the red bands would show boxy/stairstep type shapes, rather than the very tight curves radiating out from the center. Also the stars would exibit SOME bloom, but none is apparent here.

The right side shows an inverted image with the contrast bumped up. This reveals the detail in the very dark areas, and shows here that its very smooth, and full of detail. At the same time the tight edges within the detail of the explosion dont exibit the kind of "watercolor" effect I'd expect if the backlighting were being diffused to mask low resolution local dimming.

This TV seems to be what I've been waiting for :)

http://i17.tinypic.com/623f1hd.jpg

[taurus2007]

Good news. Sorry if this has been posted already, but the 4681 is now on Amazon. Just search for Samsung 46" and go to the third page. This gives me great hope that there won't be serious price protection on this set.

Shipped and sold by Vanns.

[bpmurr]

If Samsung only shipped this with a matte black screen instead of the reflective I'd buy one. The picture looks awesome but I'd like to watch it anytime of day without glare.

[vtms]

Great job, glow11. Don't hesitate to post more observations like this in the future. Thanks. Yeah, it looks we have a winner here.

[dark1x]

Any ideas when we might expect to see these in store? I'd love to take a nice look at them as it may very well be the future of LCD. Even if this model is lacking in certain areas (unknown), it's still a huge step in the right direction and will only improve over time.

Floating blacks is a plasma issue. Correct term is "poor black level retention" I've never seen a LCD float blacks only plasma. Yes this would be a major concern but I've never heard of it with LCD.
Floating blacks are not a general plasma problem. They are related to specific models (Panasonics are particularly bad for this), not the technology as a whole. The 8g Pioneer panels do not, for example, suffer from anything of the sort.

[vtms]

There have been many questions about motion performance of this set. 81s eliminate/reduce motion artifacts by applying LED quadrant scanning algorithm which, in principle, shouldn't be that much different than Philips' Aptura backlight scanning system using 8x1 locally-dimmed HCFL matrix. While Samsung remains tight-lipped about its own implementation, here's a nice little pdf (http://www.press.ce.philips.com/apps/c_dir/e3379701.nsf/0/2515E879E57E9131C125705B0032FB00/$File/ClearLCD_Aptura%20technical%20backgrounder.pdf) that explains Philips' Aptura system. The only difference between that system and Samsung's is that LED scanning should be far more effective due to 100 nanosecond response time of LEDs, higher resolution backlight matrix, higher strobing frequencies (no reason not to go well above 120Hz) and the (CRT-mimicking, I suppose) "circular" scanning pattern.

What's more, all shades of gray are generated NOT by varying the current flowing through an LED, but by applying the highest current level in short bursts (Pulse Width Modulation). What this basically means is that at least the "image persistence" factor contributing to motion artifacts should be eliminated.

(Few months ago Philips abandoned its own Aptura backlight scanning system as they had decided to switch entirely to LED scanning.)

[SoftMachine]

I checked my crt this week-end for reflections, matched against Farscapekevin's photos, and I believe I can get along with this panel just fine. Only Sony can outdo this thing IMO (as regards LCD products), and they better do it fast or Amazon.com will get a little larger bottom line for this quarter from me.

softy

P.S. Don't think that Sony/Samsung/other makers don't pay attention to the kind of buildup this type of forum generates... you would too if you're business model depended on it.

[oldcband]

Floating blacks are not a general plasma problem. They are related to specific models (Panasonics are particularly bad for this), not the technology as a whole. The 8g Pioneer panels do not, for example, suffer from anything of the sort.
You Pio plasma folks are quite sensitive. Agree that Pioneer is about the only one I've read about that doesn't suffer from it. But the other post trying to put this one on the 81 series just goes to show the fact that LCD is going to win the war. But time will tell don't you think?:)

[Jay-eM]

will cc carry the 81 series, can someone confirm this?

To be honest with you i have not found them in the system. I'm crossing my fingers we are. The fact that we stop getting 61 and 65 series does indicate that we might get the 81. It wouldn't be good for Sammy to only carry only one of the Sammy's 1080p sets compared to Sony four lines. Also they can't say price is the reason because MRSP is the same for a Sony 40" XBR4 & Sammy 4081.

If you send me a message i can keep you up too date if i find it in the system.

[slouque1]

OMG, I can't get over the depth of the blacks in the photos posted. I can't wait to see the 81 at my local BB or CC. They look incredible. I just wish they wouldn't cost so much. :(

[VoodooZ]

Very nice pixs!!

I was getting ready to buy the Toshiba 52LX177 but now like most people I might wait just a tiny little bit longer to see the reviews and prices...

I was wondering if this new technology would finally allow LCD TVs to be used for stereoscopic 3D now that it uses a more predictable strobing method...
I was disappointed earlier to read that it's practically impossible to use normal LCD to do Stereo even if they had the sync signal exposed... some DLP do it but not the same...

Just curious as it would be really immersive to sit in front of a 52" playing games in 3D!

take care,

[acetheog]

Really I heard nothing but hot and seen nothing but hot in person on the xbr4's

deinterlacing issues (although fixable through calibration apparently)
shaky 24fps support (3:2 candence)... i thought 120hz was the end all solution?!
and ive yet to see a sony lcd free of mura
price is too high vs its performance

i cant wait to see an 81 in person... i still dont think the price difference can justify what i see as minor upgrades to my 65... the posted pics are great but i feel my 65 produces an equally stunning picture. BUT i have a feeling the 81 is capable of much more after serious calibration :D. im almost haha sure ill be waiting for next years model ;).

[greenland]

On Amazon, the 4081 is listed as weighing 73lbs. That was surprising to me, since someone mentioned yesterday that less weight is one of the advantages of LCD over Plasma. (Not looking to start an LCD versus Plasma war, but just trying to find out if the weight is correct) For example, the Pioneer 4280 plasma is listed as weighing just under 66lbs. Could glass be the reason for the 4081 weighing 73lbs. Anyone know?. Thanks.:)

[IBNobody]

I checked my crt this week-end for reflections, matched against Farscapekevin's photos, and I believe I can get along with this panel just fine. Only Sony can outdo this thing IMO (as regards LCD products), and they better do it fast or Amazon.com will get a little larger bottom line for this quarter from me.

I'm with you. I'm so used to CRTs that the gloss won't bother me as much.

Here's my gloss solution: I told my wife that if I get this set, she can go out and buy all new curtains for the house.

[HTPC4ME]

I've discarded most of the tests I did. This one shows 2 methods to dig out artifacts.
The left hand side shows selections constrained to certain luminance amounts. The red zones are 4 or 5 different levels selected and colorized. If the local dimming zones were showing artifacts, the red bands would show boxy/stairstep type shapes, rather than the very tight curves radiating out from the center. Also the stars would exibit SOME bloom, but none is apparent here.

The right side shows an inverted image with the contrast bumped up. This reveals the detail in the very dark areas, and shows here that its very smooth, and full of detail. At the same time the tight edges within the detail of the explosion dont exibit the kind of "watercolor" effect I'd expect if the backlighting were being diffused to mask low resolution local dimming.

This TV seems to be what I've been waiting for :)



Hmm, okay, so there is no stairstep effect, no detail crushing in the blacks, no halo according to Kevin, no difference in blacks near whiltes and blacks far from whites, and no brighter blacks in areas that have a lot of bright stars.

So, with that information, I have just one question;

How is this TV doing that with only 117 BL zones?!

[bgates22]

On Amazon, the 4081 is listed as weighing 73lbs. That was surprising to me, since someone mentioned yesterday that less weight is one of the advantages of LCD over Plasma. (Not looking to start an LCD versus Plasma war, but just trying to find out if the weight is correct) For example, the Pioneer 4280 plasma is listed as weighing just under 66lbs. Could glass be the reason for the 4081 weighing 73lbs. Anyone know?. Thanks.:)

Amazon often has bad specs. Don't trust those specs. The Samsung pdf spec sheet for the 4081 (see attachment) lists the 4081 as 49.2 lbs without stand and 57.8 lbs with stand.

[____]

Hmm, okay, so there is no stairstep effect, no detail crushing in the blacks, no halo according to Kevin, no difference in blacks near whiltes and blacks far from whites, and no brighter blacks in areas that have a lot of bright stars.

So, with that information, I have just one question;

How is this TV doing that with only 117 BL zones?!

Actually 46" model has less. Things get more impressive when size increases. Even the smallest 81 beats everything else on the market though. :eek:

[fafarafa]

OK,just ordered ln-t5281f which is in stock thru Vann's price is good as well,,delivery by saturday,so 2u guys,stop talking about it,just get it....and set IS 120 Hz,if u don't have enough greens don't act like ur a potential buyer ...get real and make a move,i'll post some pics when I get it ps: Samsung rep was right on target when she said:shipping august 07,so long and peace

[D-Nice]

Even the smallest 81 beats everything else on the market though. :eek:Wake me up when there is actually a review after a real calibration (Avia and DVE are not considered calibration).

[greenland]

Amazon often has bad specs. Don't trust those specs. The Samsung pdf spec sheet for the 4081 (see attachment) lists the 4081 as 49.2 lbs without stand and 57.8 lbs with stand.

Thanks for the link. That makes more sense.:)

[HTPC4ME]

Actually 46" model has less. Things get more impressive when size increases. Even the smallest 81 beats everything else on the market though. :eek:

I'm thinking they have more zones than we thought. With less than 100 zones we should be seeing blocks of grey around the bright portions of that space pic. They either have more zones or got the liquid crystals to let virtually no light through when closed, in which case local dimming isn't even necessary.

Hey Kevin, can you turn off local dimming and tell us how much worse it looks?

[johnnybrulez]

I'm thinking they have more zones than we thought. With less than 100 zones we should be seeing blocks of grey around the bright portions of that space pic. They either have more zones or got the liquid crystals to let virtually no light through when closed, in which case local dimming isn't even necessary.

Hey Kevin, can you turn off local dimming and tell us how much worse it looks?

Well it is only a photograph. Once you see it live then you can be more absolute in opinion. I am glad there's nothing too nuts caught on photograph yet. That picture looks awesome. :) More dark scenes please!

[____]

Wake me up when there is actually a review after a real calibration (Avia and DVE are not considered calibration).

So 81 series would make 8G look even worse? OK.

[johnnybrulez]

Wake me up when there is actually a review after a real calibration (Avia and DVE are not considered calibration).

Hehe. :) Please D, leave it be. We don't need him over in the other boards. I think he's fine over here... sorta.

[D-Nice]

So 81 series would make 8G look even worse? OK.If it does, it does, but color me unimpressed right now.

[____]

If it does, it does, but color me unimpressed right now.

Must be lonely.

[D-Nice]

Hardly

[dark1x]

You Pio plasma folks are quite sensitive. Agree that Pioneer is about the only one I've read about that doesn't suffer from it. But the other post trying to put this one on the 81 series just goes to show the fact that LCD is going to win the war. But time will tell don't you think?:)
It's certainly not the only plasma that doesn't float blacks, you know. It really is a Panasonic problem more than anything. I'm not sure where the misconception that "floating blacks" were a general plasma problem came from, but it's not true.

I'm hoping that, by the time I need to upgrade again, FED and OLED panels will have finally arrived. Those are the real holy grails that will put LCD and plasma to shame. This seems to be a huge step in the right direction for LCDs, however. I can't wait to test it myself. I'm not expecting Samsung to master it, however, as all of their TVs suffer from various flaws of all sorts.

[fafarafa]

I wonder why there was no price talk:)

[johnnybrulez]

It's certainly not the only plasma that doesn't float blacks, you know. It really is a Panasonic problem more than anything. I'm not sure where the misconception that "floating blacks" were a general plasma problem came from, but it's not true.

I'm hoping that, by the time I need to upgrade again, FED and OLED panels will have finally arrived. Those are the real holy grails that will put LCD and plasma to shame. This seems to be a huge step in the right direction for LCDs, however. I can't wait to test it myself. I'm not expecting Samsung to master it, however, as all of their TVs suffer from various flaws of all sorts.

Not to mention all this prissy footing around about previous gen LCD efforts of black have been pathetic. I hope these new brands of flat panels finally show people what a great black level can do. There's really no more excuses anymore. LCD fans can laud daytime performance all they want... but when ya get this hi-end, home theater PQ has to be just as good. Samsung and Pioneer seem to be the only ones giving a damn at the moment.

Everyone else seems to be worried about price drops. Or making their TVs look spiffy with all that glass! (Sony... cough)

[D-Nice]

I'm hoping that, by the time I need to upgrade again, FED and OLED panels will have finally arrived. Those are the real holy grails that will put LCD and plasma to shame.Agreed

This seems to be a huge step in the right direction for LCDs,I concur
however. I can't wait to test it myself. I'm not expecting Samsung to master it, however, as all of their TVs suffer from various flaws of all sorts.Every product they make, from cell phones to TVs, has an issue with it....more so than other brands.

[fafarafa]

Here I go AGAIN, LN-T5281f IS available thru VANNS,check price. I ordered today ,delivery on saturday,stop talkin start buing then talk,set is 120Hz

[johnnybrulez]

Agreed

I concur
Every product they make, from cell phones to TVs, has an issue with it....more so than other brands.

The latest statement may be true D. But my LCD Samsung has held up pretty well. My friend has had problems with Samsung in the past though... and he no longer deals with them. From DVDs to Cellphones he's had caveats. He tried to convince me to go the other route and I didn't listen. Hehe. Like I said my LCD is fine.

My Samsung DLP though is another story... but it may be that just because rear projections are just horrible.

[bplewis24]

Out of all pictures farscaperkevin posted, this one seems most impressive and most telling about this TV's performance.

That pic is incredible.

Brandon

[D-Nice]

The latest statement may be true D. But my LCD Samsung has held up pretty well. My friend has had problems with Samsung in the past though... and he no longer deals with them. From DVDs to Cellphones he's had caveats. He tried to convince me to go the other route and I didn't listen. Hehe. Like I said my LCD is fine.

My Samsung DLP though is another story... but it may be that just because rear projections are just horrible.The only Samsung product I personally have not had an issue with is my BDP-1200. Works flawlessly with every BD disc I throw at it....except Deja Vu. However, others can't give that player the high praise I do. The funny thing I've noticed about their products is that the first batch of a production run seems have the least problems. It's downhill after that.

[vtms]

That pic is incredible.
BrandonFrom an SD DVD source.;)

[____]

Every product they make, from cell phones to TVs, has an issue with it....more so than other brands.

D-Nice. Everyone knows your agenda. Has there been a single 8G without some kind of problem? Why can't you just be happy that 81 has reached CRT performance?(first consumer flat panel ever) Beats me.

This is how Pioneer 8G kuro looks like:

http://i10.tinypic.com/53gs55f.png

Backgroud is supposed to be black.

[mark_1080p]

... there's not even a hint of gray between stars.I disagree, viewing on my 4061 monitor I can see a hint of it, but just barely. Gloss or not, I do agree that this is great performance as far as I can see. What monitor are you using to view it?

I can't see anything on the Sharp, but the Sharp dropped information, the dimmer points on the perimeter are gone. That would seem to indicate the Sharp is using local dimming and dimmed too much.

[taurus2007]

Here I go AGAIN, LN-T5281f IS available thru VANNS,check price. I ordered today ,delivery on saturday,stop talkin start buing then talk,set is 120Hz

Let me know if you need somebody to give you a hand to unpack it this Saturday! :p

[johnnybrulez]

I disagree, viewing on my 4061 monitor I can see a hint of it, but just barely. Gloss or not, I do agree that this is great performance as far as I can see. What monitor are you using to view it?

You have a good monitor. Of course... a Samsung. ;) I can't see anything on my monitor. It looks awesome for a photograph. For picky viewers anamolies will show up I'm sure, but I am hoping they are not obvious enough to deter me from potentially the first flat panel with absolute blacks as dark as nothing. We'll see. Let's just say that I'm excited there's something contrast with my new favorite displays.

Weeeee!!!

[bplewis24]

OMG, I can't get over the depth of the blacks in the photos posted. I can't wait to see the 81 at my local BB or CC. They look incredible. I just wish they wouldn't cost so much. :(

If this tv came out 2 years ago it would probably enter the market $1,000-2,000 higher. I think the XBR2's entered the market significantly higher last year than the XBR4's are this year. If the limited distribution of these things doesn't last too long (2+ months), then they could become affordable quickly.

Brandon

[D-Nice]

D-Nice. Everyone knows your agenda.What agenda?
Has there been a single 8G without some kind of problem?What does the Pioneer Kuros have to do with this thread? It's quite interesting you posted this comment Sampo ;)
Why can't you just be happy that 81 has reached CRT performance?Because I see no hard data that it has.

[bplewis24]

On Amazon, the 4081 is listed as weighing 73lbs. That was surprising to me, since someone mentioned yesterday that less weight is one of the advantages of LCD over Plasma. (Not looking to start an LCD versus Plasma war, but just trying to find out if the weight is correct) For example, the Pioneer 4280 plasma is listed as weighing just under 66lbs. Could glass be the reason for the 4081 weighing 73lbs. Anyone know?. Thanks.:)

The line between LCD technology and Plasma technology is being blurred with the Samsungs. Some of the distinct differences from the past (power consumption, glare, weight) are not so distinct anymore in Samsung's product lines. It now varies by model.

Brandon

[bplewis24]

From an SD DVD source.;)

It's not so much the detail but the black level I'm impressed with. I rarely watch TV under those conditions though (complete pitch black environment), especially during football season.

I wish I could see this TV in person rather than pictures though.

Brandon

[mark_1080p]

If the limited distribution of these things doesn't last too long (2+ months), then they could become affordable quickly.Assuming these things look as good as they do in the pics here in the dark, Samsung will not be able to keep a lid on these things, they will have to ramp up production if they want to grab this market. After all, when the guys at the big box stores start hyping the LED thing, point to the "LED" sticker on the front, which they will do, these things are going to fly off the shelves.

They really should be shown in the Magnolia section, though, please keep these things off the bright showroom floor.

[bpmurr]

I'd love to see some more pics of this set showing content with the lights on in a room!

[vtms]

I disagree, viewing on my 4061 monitor I can see a hint of it, but just barely. Gloss or not, I do agree that this is great performance as far as I can see. What monitor are you using to view it?
I was looking at it on my crappy LCD monitor and saw just pure black (if I shift to an extreme viewing angle I usually can detect higher black levels undetectable with direct viewing). Now I switched to the CRT monitor in the basement (pitch dark) and yes, there's a virtually undetectable hint of impure blackness. But when I looked at the top-left corner in the picture below, that area is just pure black.
http://i11.tinypic.com/5z6fhic.jpg
In the absence of stars, a black frame, though, would be black (as in 0cd/m^2 black) without a doubt.

[____]

Now I switched to the CRT monitor in the basement (pitch dark) and yes, there's a virtually undetectable hint of impure blackness.

Hard to analyze from photos. If you take a photo of crt starfield, it isn't perfect either. Good image for out of the box settings. These things need to be experienced and tweaked first hand.

[mark_1080p]

... I switched to the CRT monitor in the basement (pitch dark) and yes, there's a virtually undetectable hint of impure blackness. But when I looked at the top-left corner in the picture below, that area is just pure black. In the absence of stars, a black frame, though, would be black (as in 0cd/m^2 black) without a doubt.I agree, at the top left corner it fades to pure black, pretty nice! Based on what we have, it is very impressive.

[vtms]

Hard to analyze from photos. If you take a photo of crt starfield, it isn't perfect either. Good image for out of the box settings. These things need to be experienced and tweaked first hand.Sure. The most important thing to keep in mind here is that this hint of impurity next to a really bright center would be completely beyond human ability to detect it during a real viewing experience. Same thing applies to CRTs which is why they looked so good and were the PQ kings for so many years. Well, it looks like their reign has finally ended.

[mark_1080p]

Quick check of the RGB levels in photoshop using the color picker shows RGB of (3,3,5) between stars going to (2,2,2) at the upper left corner and (2,2,2) outside the image, thus barely detectable.

[vtms]

I agree, at the top left corner it fades to pure black, pretty nice! Based on what we have, it is very impressive.Once this local dimming technology graduates to IMLEDs, even the space between stars will be completely black.

[nervx]

I was looking at it on my crappy LCD monitor and saw just pure black (if I shift to an extreme viewing angle I usually can detect higher black levels undetectable with direct viewing). Now I switched to the CRT monitor in the basement (pitch dark) and yes, there's a virtually undetectable hint of impure blackness. But when I looked at the top-left corner in the picture below, that area is just pure black.
In the absence of stars, a black frame, though, would be black (as in 0cd/m^2 black) without a doubt.

On my CRT which is high end when viewing the black in the two star pics on my screen it isn't 100% black, I can tell where the bezel and screen meets. Could be light leaking through or the way the movie is encoded but overall it's by far the darkest black level i've seen on a flat panel screen.

Hopefully the led motion thing improves the blur in games as much as the led dimming has improved the blacks. If it does then i'll be ordering asap.

Samsung also has a line of pc monitors using the same tech coming. Possibly the extinction of crt in my house.

[____]

Sure. The most important thing to keep in mind here is that this hint of impurity next to a really bright center would be completely beyond human ability to detect it during a real viewing experience. Same thing applies to CRTs which is why they looked so good and were the PQ kings for so many years. Well, it looks like their reign has finally ended.

I fully agree. We don't need over engineered displays, just displays that look at least as good as crt during a real viewing experience. 81 is the flat panel that we have been waiting for.

[dark1x]

D-Nice. Everyone knows your agenda. Has there been a single 8G without some kind of problem? Why can't you just be happy that 81 has reached CRT performance?(first consumer flat panel ever) Beats me.

This is how Pioneer 8G kuro looks like:

http://i10.tinypic.com/53gs55f.png

Backgroud is supposed to be black.

That's a BS photo right there. You'll only ever see glow in a completely dark room. I can say, without a doubt, that the panel should appear completely dark in the environment you see there. I have no idea WHY that's not the case, but something is clearly off.

It's funny you mention CRT, however, as this new LCD does seem to suffer from the same ANSI contrast issues that CRTs do (light bleeds into darker areas). Look at that shot of the planet. You can see a halo effect near the top and bottom of the screen around the bright areas just like a CRT.

[____]

It's funny you mention CRT, however, as this new LCD does seem to suffer from the same ANSI contrast issues that CRTs do (light bleeds into darker areas). Look at that shot of the planet. You can see a halo effect near the top and bottom of the screen around the bright areas just like a CRT.

That "bleed" might be due camera. You can always use letterbox masking or turn the brightness/contrast down to get nice looking photos.

[mark_1080p]

Just to nitpick, here is the photo with a black monolith (1x4x9 :D) insert.

http://img239.imageshack.us/img239/9999/lnt4681obeliskit1.jpg

The grey could even be camera (as you say, ___) or ambient room reflection, just have to see this thing in person in the dark. Have to find a high end shop, perhaps a Grammaphone.

[____]

Just to nitpick, here is the photo with a black monolith (1x4x9 :D) insert.

Now it's a picture of starfield and a black hole box. Starfield brightness is >0cd/m^2.

[HTPC4ME]

It's funny you mention CRT, however, as this new LCD does seem to suffer from the same ANSI contrast issues that CRTs do (light bleeds into darker areas). Look at that shot of the planet. You can see a halo effect near the top and bottom of the screen around the bright areas just like a CRT.

Kevin claims that the halo is not visible in person.

On my CRT which is high end when viewing the black in the two star pics on my screen it isn't 100% black, I can tell where the bezel and screen meets.

I think limitations in the human eye will always result in us seeing the edge of the screen no matter how dark that black gets. For example, look at this picture:

http://www.coolopticalillusions.com/invisible_triangle.htm

Do you "see" the edges of the triangles? That's too bad, because the triangles aren't really there. The white inside the triangles is the same as the white outside the triangles.

I think the starfield may be causing the same effect in Kevin's pics. As mark_1080p stated, Photoshop reveals that there is a tiny difference between the black outside the screen and the black between the stars. Still, even if there was no difference, I think we would still see the edge of the screen.

[LaserEdge]

Very nice pixs!!

I was getting ready to buy the Toshiba 52LX177 but now like most people I might wait just a tiny little bit longer to see the reviews and prices...

I was wondering if this new technology would finally allow LCD TVs to be used for stereoscopic 3D now that it uses a more predictable strobing method...
I was disappointed earlier to read that it's practically impossible to use normal LCD to do Stereo even if they had the sync signal exposed... some DLP do it but not the same...

Just curious as it would be really immersive to sit in front of a 52" playing games in 3D!

take care,

LCD still can't do 3D from a shuttering method currently. The pixel response times are not quite fast enough yet. If the pixel response times get < 4ms g2g then 3D via a shuttering method will become possible.

[HTPC4ME]

Just to nitpick, here is the photo with a black monolith (1x4x9 :D) insert.

http://img239.imageshack.us/img239/9999/lnt4681obeliskit1.jpg

The grey could even be camera (as you say, ___) or ambient room reflection, just have to see this thing in person in the dark. Have to find a high end shop, perhaps a Grammaphone.

That's cheating. Since the black box intersects a bright area, we can easily see it.

Try the pic attached to this post. I put a black box somewhere in the middle of the starfield. Can you spot it?

[davidjschenk]

I'm thinking they have more zones than we thought. With less than 100 zones we should be seeing blocks of grey around the bright portions of that space pic.


Yeah, at this point I totally call B.S. on the claim that the smaller displays have fewer backlight zones.

I don't quite recall who first started promulgating that rumor or why, but if you just sit down and think about it carefully, it really does seem breathtakingly stupid. Why on Earth would Samsung do that??? It would be tantamount to guaranteeing that the smaller displays do not get sold--at least not in quantities sufficient to make up for all their investment costs (and surely those costs are high).

Unless and until I see actual *proof* that the smaller displays have fewer zones, I say it's a lie.

-David

P.S.: glow11, those tests you ran are *FANTASTIC*, man. That information is exactly the kind of thing the rest of us have been looking for. I mean, from what you showed, there just doesn't seem to be *ANY* plausible way for that 46" display to have a small-ish number of BL zones.

If you have any other tests you can perform and are not too busy, I'd love to see them. They are yielding the most reliable information we have right now.

[vtms]

LCD still can't do 3D from a shuttering method currently. The pixel response times are not quite fast enough yet. If the pixel response times get < 4ms g2g then 3D via a shuttering method will become possible.Micro-electro-mechanical shutter displays being developed right now could have .001ms pixel response times. Hopefully, they will replace inferior liquid crystal technology in few years.

[LaserEdge]

Last pic for the night, then I have to go to sleep so I can get to work bright and early.

Good night.

Looks like there is no overscan. Was this PC via HDMI port 1 or DSUB-16?

[taurus2007]

vtms, I think you should change the title of this thread now since 81F is out, removing the anticipation part.

[pakotlar]

There are some discrepancies with the pix with horizontal black bars. It seems when there is a round shape bright area that intersects with the black bar, the glow goes throughout the black bar. That would suck if it was anything other than reflection from the glass panel.

[sgolko]

Yeah, at this point I totally call B.S. on the claim that the smaller displays have fewer backlight zones.

I don't quite recall who first started promulgating that rumor or why, but if you just sit down and think about it carefully, it really does seem breathtakingly stupid. Why on Earth would Samsung do that??? It would be tantamount to guaranteeing that the smaller displays do not get sold--at least not in quantities sufficient to make up for all their investment costs (and surely those costs are high).

Unless and until I see actual *proof* that the smaller displays have fewer zones, I say it's a lie.

The way I see it, Samsung has 2 options. Lets treat the 70" as the baseline..
For smaller panels, there is unarguably fewer LED back light RGB's (not to be confused with clusters). This means Samsung has to find a way to get rid of some of them.
Option 1: reduce the number of RGB's per cluster, and leave the number of clusters the same. Positives of this: they will have an even better "backlight resolution" than the 70", they can theoretically use the same LED driver setup (i'm by no means an expert in this field) as the 70" as there is the same number of clusters. Negatives: may cost more in manufacturing as they have to now manufacture several different sizes of clusters.
Option 2: Leave the number of RGB's per cluster the same and reduce the number of clusters. Positives: same "backlight resolution" as the 70", only 1 size of cluster to make. Negatives: may have to reconfigure drivers.
I guess option 3: a combination of the 2.

If I were Samsung, I would be doing a cost analysis and would probably be finding that option 2 is the best, which is exactly what (I think) people are suggesting and you are saying is breathtakingly stupid.

[gbmannc]

There are some discrepancies with the pix with horizontal black bars. It seems when there is a round shape bright area that intersects with the black bar, the glow goes throughout the black bar. That would suck if it was anything other than reflection from the glass panel.

The owner said it wasn't noticeable in person. The brightness would cause the human eye to see a glow naturally, even if the display was perfect, from what i understand.

[____]

http://i12.tinypic.com/4z8r50i.png

Blackhole blacks. Check.
Pure whites. Check.
Accurate colors. Check.
Great grayscales. Check.
No washout. Check.
Superb motion detail. Check.
No burn. Check
1080P. Check.
Super Clear. Check.
Good viewing angles. Check.

What else could you realistically want from a 2007 display?

[niksem]

That's cheating. Since the black box intersects a bright area, we can easily see it.

Try the pic attached to this post. I put a black box somewhere in the middle of the starfield. Can you spot it?

Tghat picture is unfair to talk about. Because the camera's amperature is set for the brightest zone so all darks will appear darker than they actually are. From that picture, you can preclude the black on the top left is actually full black. With that particular picture, XBR2 will look identical as well. Someone need to take a picture of the plan black background in dark.

[vtms]

Yeah, at this point I totally call B.S. on the claim that the smaller displays have fewer backlight zones.
40" has just 64 clusters and bigger-sized models have more (based on all the initial reports). Local dimming algorithm is just that powerful. Also, don't forget to multiply backlight contrast by panel contrast for a total contrast. Even if, conservatively, these were 6-bit backlights and 8-bit panels, you would still have, roughly, the equivalent of a 14-bit display. Once you have 2-stage light modulation technology, low end grayscale improves tremendously.

[darkninja67]

Blackhole blacks. Check.
Pure whites. Check.
Accurate colors. Check.
Great grayscales. Check.
No washout. Check.
Superb motion detail. Check.
No burn. Check
1080P. Check.
Super Clear. Check.
Good viewing angles. Check.

What else could you realistically want from a 2007 display?

For it to be a bit cheaper but I am willing to wait. Need to see how the 71 series is as well.

[Scot Kight]

"What else could you realistically want from a 2007 display?"

A kitchen sink and a "stretchable" interface, so I can go from 40" to 70" by hitting a button on the remote. :)

(The one thing I do want is discrete button control of inputs and on/off. It is unforgivable to not include that in this day and age. )

[Warder45]

Blackhole blacks. Check.
Pure whites. Check.
Accurate colors. Check.
Great grayscales. Check.
No washout. Check.
Superb motion detail. Check.
No burn. Check
1080P. Check.
Super Clear. Check.
Good viewing angles. Check.

What else could you realistically want from a 2007 display?

Optional matte screen like the 61 series. You'd have everyone covered.

[vtms]

vtms, I think you should change the title of this thread now since 81F is out, removing the anticipation part.Tried that already. Forum software refuses to update the thread title. Regardless, there's still far more people who still "anticipate" than who own this thing.:)

[davidjschenk]

The way I see it, Samsung has 2 options. Lets treat the 70" as the baseline..
For smaller panels, there is unarguably fewer LED back light RGB's (not to be confused with clusters). This means Samsung has to find a way to get rid of some of them.
Option 1: reduce the number of RGB's per cluster, and leave the number of clusters the same. Positives of this: they will have an even better "backlight resolution" than the 70", they can theoretically use the same LED driver setup (i'm by no means an expert in this field) as the 70" as there is the same number of clusters. Negatives: may cost more in manufacturing as they have to now manufacture several different sizes of clusters.
Option 2: Leave the number of RGB's per cluster the same and reduce the number of clusters. Positives: same "backlight resolution" as the 70", only 1 size of cluster to make. Negatives: may have to reconfigure drivers.
I guess option 3: a combination of the 2.

If I were Samsung, I would be doing a cost analysis and would probably be finding that option 2 is the best, which is exactly what (I think) people are suggesting and you are saying is breathtakingly stupid.

Hi sgolko,

Yes, I *did* say it was breathtakingly stupid, and perhaps I would be wrong to stand by that claim (all empirical claims are necessarily open to falsification).

Lemme throw out a few caveats here, because you kind of wowed me with information that I do not fully follow:

(1) I have literally *zero* knowledge of electrical engineering and computer science. Ditto for mechanical engineering;
(2) I have very, very little background knowledge of these displays.

From (1) and (2) I think it is natural to infer that I am quite UNinformed about how the local dimming arrays actually do their fancy magic.

Okay, so with those caveats in place, I'll plow on here and people who actually know the science can school me (I'm always open to *that*--it's the best way to learn). My thinking was and is quite simple: if the number of backlight clusters were smaller on the smaller displays, then wouldn't artifacts start to become noticeable?? But on the images farscaperkevin posted, there are no noticeable artifacts. Modus tollens.

But if I understand you, your claim is that the "backlight resolution" (tentatively I assume this means the level of detail achievable in the backlight dimming) is *not* a direct function of the number of clusters used. Correct? If so, then my assumptions about what the images revealed were false and we have a significantly more complicated story to be told, here. Of what is the backlight resolution a function, then? I feel I am out of my depth.

Can you explain the mechanics of this to someone who simply is not an AV techy (err... "techie" err... oh, whatever)? Since I'm very seriously considering plopping down $3k for one of these, I'd be very grateful for any information you can give me about how this works.

Yours,

David

[vtms]

Can you explain the mechanics of this to someone who simply is not an AV techy? Since I'm very seriously considering plopping down $3k for one of these, I'd be very grateful for any information you can give me about how this works.Please read this (http://www.bit-tech.net/hardware/2005/10/04/brightside_hdr_edr/6) if you haven't already. Local dimming is based on the same set of principles.

[davidjschenk]

40" has just 64 clusters and bigger-sized models have more (based on all the initial reports). Local dimming algorithm is just that powerful. Also, don't forget to multiply backlight contrast by panel contrast for a total contrast. Even if, conservatively, these were 6-bit backlights and 8-bit panels, you would still have, roughly, the equivalent of a 14-bit display. Once you have 2-stage light modulation technology, low end grayscale improves tremendously.

Hi vtms,

Ohhhh...perhaps I have some crow to eat, here. So the way this is achieved is not simply by modulating the intensity of the individual clusters and then smoothing out the image a bit? The real magic is in the programming? Is that right?

Well, then I still have a simple-minded question in the face of all this: if I buy a 40" display, will my risk of noticeable artifacts be higher than is found on a 70" display, or not? I mean, what real world difference will there be in the displayed image between a 40" tv and a 70" one? If none, then one of my biggest remaining fears about these things evaporates and I become very happy. If there is some difference, though, then I need to think very long and hard about the relative wisdom of investing a large sum of cash in first-generation technology.

I'm still trying to figure this out... why wouldn't a higher number of clusters, all other things held equal, yield a higher degree of image fidelity and thereby reduce the number of perceivable artifacts??

I think I'm confused now...

Yours,

David

[LaserEdge]

Really appreciate the pics from farscaperkevin. Too bad he doesn't have a semi-professional/professional camera to take better pictures. The quality of the camera seems like it is inaccurately representing what the display can do.

Preordered the LNT4081F from Mag AV in WA around a month ago. Hopefully I can get the panel pretty soon so I can really test it out. My main focus is going to be evaluating the panels performance as PC/gaming monitor. Bioshock under DirectX 10 anyone?

I have a Cannon 30D (semi-professional SLR camera) to take some really good pictures for everyone here. Even have a 5:1 macro lens so I can take pictures of the LCD matrix for everyone.

Got many tests already planned. I will even do some side by side CRT testing with the panel to determine source to screen lag. Before anyone even asks... yes I will test with game mode on and off.

[vtms]

Got many tests already planned. I will even do some side by side CRT testing with the panel to determine screen to lag. Before anyone even asks... yes I will test with game mode on and off.Can't wait for your tests, LaserEdge.

[DavidBot002]

Just to nitpick, here is the photo with a black monolith (1x4x9 :D) insert.


The grey could even be camera (as you say, ___) or ambient room reflection, just have to see this thing in person in the dark. Have to find a high end shop, perhaps a Grammaphone.

Don't forget that HDTV will look darker.

[Warder45]

Preordered the LNT4081F from Mag AV in WA around a month ago. Hopefully I can get the panel pretty soon so I can really test it out. My main focus is going to be evaluating the panels performance as PC/gaming monitor. Bioshock under DirectX 10 anyone?



Can't wait. Thats exactly what my use is going to be as well. If you can try a guitar hero test. I hear it's good at picking out input lag.

[davidjschenk]

Please read this (http://www.bit-tech.net/hardware/2005/10/04/brightside_hdr_edr/6) if you haven't already. Local dimming is based on the same set of principles.

Hi vtms,

Thanks for that link--I had not read it and most of the information was new for me.

-David

[dark1x]

I think limitations in the human eye will always result in us seeing the edge of the screen no matter how dark that black gets. For example, look at this picture:
Not true. I hate to bring the 8g Pioneer into this again, but there are many times when the black bars fade completely into the bezel. I've noticed this time and again. Of course, when the on screen image is extremely dark, you'll notice that the panel isn't 100% dark...but with medium range content, the bars fade away completely. It's really a neat effect.

[Zankou]

There is some fat glare on those last two pics. That's the only thing I'd ask for better on. Otherwise this baby looks perfect. If I can settle myself that the glare is okay, I'm going to buy it.

[bpmurr]

http://i12.tinypic.com/4z8r50i.png

Blackhole blacks. Check.
Pure whites. Check.
Accurate colors. Check.
Great grayscales. Check.
No washout. Check.
Superb motion detail. Check.
No burn. Check
1080P. Check.
Super Clear. Check.
Good viewing angles. Check.

What else could you realistically want from a 2007 display?

No Super Clear

[LaserEdge]

Can't wait. Thats exactly what my use is going to be as well. If you can try a guitar hero test. I hear it's good at picking out input lag.

I have a 360, but I really wasn't planning on Guitar Hero. It's not really my kind of game. The testing I have planned will defintely show if there are any issues with such a game. I should end up with a very good understanding on how to configure the panel to reduce button to screen lag which is crucial for a game such as Guitar Hero.

[greenland]

http://i12.tinypic.com/4z8r50i.png

Blackhole blacks. Check.
Pure whites. Check.
Accurate colors. Check.
Great grayscales. Check.
No washout. Check.
Superb motion detail. Check.
No burn. Check
1080P. Check.
Super Clear. Check.
Good viewing angles. Check.

What else could you realistically want from a 2007 display?

How did you determine that it has "superb motion detail"?.

[sgolko]

Hi sgolko,

Yes, I *did* say it was breathtakingly stupid, and perhaps I would be wrong to stand by that claim (all empirical claims are necessarily open to falsification).

Lemme throw out a few caveats here, because you kind of wowed me with information that I do not fully follow:

(1) I have literally *zero* knowledge of electrical engineering and computer science. Ditto for mechanical engineering;
(2) I have very, very little background knowledge of these displays.

From (1) and (2) I think it is natural to infer that I am quite UNinformed about how the local dimming arrays actually do their fancy magic.

Okay, so with those caveats in place, I'll plow on here and people who actually know the science can school me (I'm always open to *that*--it's the best way to learn). My thinking was and is quite simple: if the number of backlight clusters were smaller on the smaller displays, then wouldn't artifacts start to become noticeable?? But on the images farscapekevin posted, there are no noticeable artifacts. Modus tollens.

But if I understand you, your claim is that the "backlight resolution" (tentatively I assume this means the level of detail achievable in the backlight dimming) is *not* a direct function of the number of clusters used. Correct? If so, then my assumptions about what the images revealed were false and we have a significantly more complicated story to be told, here. Of what is the backlight resolution a function, then? I feel I am out of my depth.

Can you explain the mechanics of this to someone who simply is not an AV techy? Since I'm very seriously considering plopping down $3k for one of these, I'd be very grateful for any information you can give me about how this works.

Yours,

David

I have been thinking about this since I posted, now I am questioning myself. I'm not sure that I chose the correct term when I said "backlight resolution". Let me start off with some observations:
- For the past 2 months, there has been nothing but talk of how this TV is going to have all kinds of halos, and the only way to get rid of this is by having each LED RGB as it's own cluster. Now that the very first one is out, they are saying that there is VERY minimal halo effect.
-LCD TV's are made in many different sizes. all 1080p ones have the exact same resolution, ie same number of pixels. They vary by the size of each pixel (I am assuming here, someone please correct me if I am wrong). In comparing this to the previous post I made, LCD's are using option 1.

So in thinking about my previous post, I suggested that Samsung is using the same size of clusters on each size, and therefore covering a higher % of the entire viewing area as the size gets smaller. As I think about this, this is bad, and infact you would be decreasing the "backlight resolution". However, lets assume that Samsung started it's work with the little TV (40"???). Here they found the optimal number of clusters (ie some sort of curve where the image enhancement vs cost to manufacture was at an optimal). Then they found that it costs less to produce a greater number of single-sized clusters than a lesser number of each of several sized clusters (ie 4W<1X+1Y+1Z). In doing so they are increasing the number of cluster in bigger panels, each of which covers a smaller % of the entire viewing area, increasing the "backlight resolution".

My point is this: There is a cup-half-full and a cup-half-empty way of looking at the number of clusters. If you think that the smallest TV has an adequate number of clusters (which reviews will tell in time) then the bigger units will be even better.

I am basically just thinking in type here, educated people, let me know what you think.

[Googlefan]

Are final specs for F96 (EU) available. I'm amazed by the many contradictory information out there. 8bit processing, then 10-bet ... 100Hz, no 100Hz ...

[MagikHat]

Why does everyone care if Circuit City sells the 81 or not.. Circuit City is overpriced and their staff is mostly stupid. When this tv comes out go to nextag.com and I promise it is cheaper than CircuitCity

[____]

How did you determine that it has "superb motion detail"?.

White papers have been right so far. :p

[chuckster36]

Since I have been unable to locate the manual online and Samsung can't be bothered to add these sets to their site, can someone who owns the set check the back of the manual? I am curious if these sets use less electricity than the 71 series. Thank you very much

[HTPC4ME]

Not true. I hate to bring the 8g Pioneer into this again, but there are many times when the black bars fade completely into the bezel. I've noticed this time and again. Of course, when the on screen image is extremely dark, you'll notice that the panel isn't 100% dark...but with medium range content, the bars fade away completely. It's really a neat effect.

Black bars yes; starfield no.

If there are objects (such as stars) in a rectangular area, and the objects suddenly stop (at the bezel), you will see a boundary between the area with the objects and the area without the objects; especially if there are objects near the corners of the area.

Of course, without the objects, a black bar wll fade into another black bar. With white objects scattered through the black screen and no white objects in the black bezel, however, we will see a faint line between the areas.

BTW, I said we would always see the edge of the screen in that particular space pic, not with any scene. For example, a space pic that has the stars gradually get dimmer, smaller, and/or more spread out towards the edge of the screen - anything that would approach pitch black as the end result - would make a pitch black screen fade perfectly into a pitch black bezel. We would see the bezel as an extension of the picture, since at that point the stars would become too dim, small, or few for us to see them. Of course, the TV is not responsible for the distribution of stars in the movie.

[gbmannc]

Since I have been unable to locate the manual online and Samsung can't be bothered to add these sets to their site, can someone who owns the set check the back of the manual? I am curious if these sets use less electricity than the 71 series. Thank you very much

leds use less power than conventional backlight, and since some will be dimmed I would assume that it uses less power, probably considerably less power.

[johnnybrulez]

White papers have been right so far. :p

Based on one early impression?

Anyway... I went to Best Buy and Circuit City, both are clueless to these TVs. Anyone around the So Cal area get any info on the 81s availability?

[vtms]

Hi vtms,
Thanks for that link--I had not read it and most of the information was new for me.
-DavidReally interesting thing about that article is that it clearly implies there exists some backlight resolution "ceiling" or simply maximum resolution beyond which improvements in dynamic range stop being noticeable by human eyes. What we know for sure is that this maximum backlight resolution is much smaller than the panel resolution (so no cluster-per-pixel solutions are necessary), but the question is how low can BLU resolution go before dynamic range starts to noticeably diminish. Is it 45x31, or perhaps 16x12 could accomplish the same result? I'd really love to see some studies done on this.

[HTPC4ME]

So in thinking about my previous post, I suggested that Samsung is using the same size of clusters on each size, and therefore covering a higher % of the entire viewing area as the size gets smaller. As I think about this, this is bad, and infact you would be decreasing the "backlight resolution". However, lets assume that Samsung started it's work with the little TV (40"???). Here they found the optimal number of clusters (ie some sort of curve where the image enhancement vs cost to manufacture was at an optimal). Then they found that it costs less to produce a greater number of single-sized clusters than a lesser number of each of several sized clusters (ie 4W<1X+1Y+1Z). In doing so they are increasing the number of cluster in bigger panels, each of which covers a smaller % of the entire viewing area, increasing the "backlight resolution".

The only thing that bothers me is how the 40" with 64 clusters appears to fit 4:3 and 2.35:1 content perfectly, while the other sizes have the black bars overlap zones (and one of Kevin's pics shows this, even if he doesn't notice it in person).

So, are the bigger sizes really better if they don't have the optimal number of zones for any content other than 16:9? I don't understand why Samsung would optimize the zone pattern on the 40" but not on the other sizes.

the question is how low can BLU resolution go before dynamic range starts to noticeably diminish. Is it 45x31, or perhaps 16x12 could accomplish the same result? I'd really love to see some studies done on this.

The maximum resolution would be the lowest resolution that produces a halo smaller than the halo generated by the human eye.

[darkninja67]

Since I have been unable to locate the manual online and Samsung can't be bothered to add these sets to their site, can someone who owns the set check the back of the manual? I am curious if these sets use less electricity than the 71 series. Thank you very much

This is a good question. I know some had the Samsung 4661F down to around 81 watts consumption when it was dialed in.

[habe]

Will any of the AVS Forum sponsers be selling the 81 series sets?

habe

[mike123abc]

One wonders if the smaller displays having fewer clusters would probably be harder to detect. The eye has trouble judging contrast of a dark and a light object side by side. A larger display may need to have more clusters since objects would appear farther apart at the same viewing distance. Standing 3 feet away from each of the displays, the 70" may need more clusters to look the same as the 40" since there would be more physical distance bet