Samsung 81 Series anticipation thread

[____]

81 can be had currently for -20% retail. Prices will drop 60% within a year. There are other LED LCDs coming early next year and the cost for LED BLU drops rapidly.

[vtms]

He could be a Samsung employee. The way he talks makes me think he does have some kind of background in engineering. He could just be an employee that takes pride in his work. Some of the information he posts does seem to be inside info.
Most of the info, as _____ states correctly, is accessible on the net if one is creative and determined enough to find it. Many things that have been posted by him had been known to me long before they were posted here and I've been able to verify repeatedly almost all info he had provided which I wasn't aware of before he posted it. Again, it's all on the net. For example, yesterday _____ claimed almost equal MPRT numbers for CRTs and LED LCDs and he got immediately attacked for them. Even I was a bit surprised at how good these numbers looked for LED-based LCDs so I did some research and, while many sources report different specific numbers, the common theme among them is that LED-based LCDs with backlight scanning do tend to score in the range between CRTs and PDPs and, in fact, closer to CRTs. Again, that info has been available since late 2005.

Besides, we can test these fantastic claims by simply asking our only owner (if he ever comes back) how his 81 handles motion. :)

[ltkjr]

I would like to understand the business model Samsung management implempented when they decided to produce the 81 series with the glossy glass panel. Curious to understand if the glass panel selection was established by engineering design, cost/performance trade-offs, marketing research (customer acceptance), or other reasons?

[drew138]

81 can be had currently for -20% retail. Prices will drop 60% within a year. There are other LED LCDs coming early next year and the cost for LED BLU drops rapidly.

Only ABT and Vanns have these available and they are not -20%. All other vendors list them as backordered and no MSRP discounts. Would love a PM if you have a source for 5281 at 4k. Creditcard in hand....

[____]

I would like to understand the business model Samsung management implempented when they decided to produce the 81 series with the glossy glass panel. Curious to understand if the glass panel selection was established by engineering design, cost/performance trade-offs, marketing research (customer acceptance), or other reasons?

I believe that glossy panel was chosen purely from an engineering standpoint. Matte panel takes that punch out from the picture.

[LaserEdge]

I would like to understand the business model Samsung management implempented when they decided to produce the 81 series with the glossy glass panel. Curious to understand if the glass panel selection was established by engineering design, cost/performance trade-offs, marketing research (customer acceptance), or other reasons?

Most likely the found out the business model of having both a glossy and non-glossy series was not cost effective. IE having both the 61 and 65 series hurt their profit margins. So they likely picked what they thought was the most profitable of the two.

[____]

Creditcard in hand....

PM sent.

[1080z]

After reading the last couple of pages here today I almost long for the old black and white RCA I grew up with in the 50s. It sure isn't due to the quality of it's picture, but the message and the quality of the programs from the Golden Age of TV.

Some of you speak of these new sets like you are in search of the Holy Grail. Although the ultimate (for a short time) display is probably around the corner in a few years it is still folly to put so much faith in a machine you have so little control.

I like a nice picture, but I'd be thrilled with a better message (content) like we had 50 years ago. No matter how good the picture quality becomes, quality programming is to me by far more important. That my friends is the big picture.

[alangmc]

PM sent.

A PM my way would be much appreciated

[davidjschenk]

[...] we can test these fantastic claims by simply asking our only owner (if he ever comes back) how his 81 handles motion. :)

Heheh. Poor Kevin--he has an entire thread full of people all but climbing through the phone and cable lines, bolo knives clenched between our teeth, to invade his living room and forcibly take over his killer new toy for our testing purposes.

I know a bit about how this goes, though, because I was one of the earliest adopters for the Westinghouse 37w1 when it came out and for something like two weeks there were five or six of us all constantly fielding questions and trying to satisfy the unquenchable thirst for more photos/screen shots. I'm sure Kevin will be back, but my guess is he's kinda busy with work right now, plus he wants to spend some time actually playing with his ueber-cool new toy. Obviously, I don't think any of us will begrudge him that at all.

Whenever you do find time to do the calibrations and take some more pictures and/or answer questions, we'll all be very glad to hear from you, Kevin. Have fun with that thing!

Yours,

David

[Alex the Great]

Do you mean subwoofers?

Are you sure that these two tiny about 3 - 3.5" in diameter grids are subwoofers?
Typically subwoofer is bigger and only one. Besides the location on the back of the set is not common for subwoofer but standard for cooling fan.

[____]

Are you sure that these two tiny about 3 - 3.5" in diameter grids are subwoofers?
Typically subwoofer is bigger and only one. Besides the location on the back of the set is not common for subwoofer but standard for cooling fan.

81 series has 2 subwoofers according to the specs.

[glow11]

Perhaps the 81 really did shoot Kevin's eyes out!

[N8M]

A PM my way would be much appreciated
I don't mean to overwhelm the OP with PM requests, but I would appreciate one as well. :)

[techtvman]

Only ABT and Vanns have these available and they are not -20%. All other vendors list them as backordered and no MSRP discounts. Would love a PM if you have a source for 5281 at 4k. Creditcard in hand....

PM sent.


i would also like a pm of a source with a lower than msrp of a 40 and or 46in

[davidjschenk]

After reading the last couple of pages here today I almost long for the old black and white RCA I grew up with in the 50s. It sure isn't due to the quality of it's picture, but the message and the quality of the programs from the Golden Age of TV.

Some of you speak of these new sets like you are in search of the Holy Grail. Although the ultimate (for a short time) display is probably around the corner in a few years it is still folly to put so much faith in a machine you have so little control.

I like a nice picture, but I'd be thrilled with a better message (content) like we had 50 years ago. No matter how good the picture quality becomes, quality programming is to me by far more important. That my friends is the big picture.

Oi! Buddy, you got that right!! That is the main reason why I don't actually have a tv and use these things purely as monitors for computer use, including very occasional gaming and more-than-occasional movie-watching. The movies of recent years have been quite wretched, too, though this year and last year saw some pretty good ones. Still, how many comedies of today can compare to My Man Godfrey? Few that I've seen.

-David

[CruelInventions]

Most of the info, as _____ states correctly, is accessible on the net if one is creative and determined enough to find it....

What you say is otherwise perfectly valid, but there was some counter evidence which seemed to confirm his employment. It was a time he slipped up and posted a picture of a behind-the-scenes Samsung training session which revealed an 81 Series being compared to another panel, and he talked about it in the first-person, how much better it was, etc. That post under his go81 moniker was subsequently purged by the mods, as part of a bulk deletion which tends to occur for each of his bannings.

In any case, I'm tired of talking about him.. he is what he is.. take the good with the (mostly) bad, I guess.

I may have missed it, but have the official wattage numbers been posted yet? How do the 81 Series compare to existing lcd wattage numbers in equivalent sizes? I would expect a reduction, of course, but I'm curious as to how much. I'm all about efficiency, man.

[Alex the Great]

How high temperatures? LEDs todays have af lifetime(down to 50% output) of about 100000hours at 25 degrees C and they do not produce much heat by them self, actually they are the most effektive light source today.

In my understanding the design of LED BL is perverting convective heat dissipation and this may led to unfortunate results. The bottom line – the problem does exist! So the life expectancy and spectral characteristics of LED BL can degrade fester then originally anticipated. Indirectly this has been confirmed by my local dealer who told me that service plan price for LED BL TV will be determined shortly and most likely will be higher then CCFL sets.

[CruelInventions]

After reading the last couple of pages here today I almost long for the old black and white RCA I grew up with in the 50s. It sure isn't due to the quality of it's picture, but the message and the quality of the programs from the Golden Age of TV.

..... I like a nice picture, but I'd be thrilled with a better message (content) like we had 50 years ago. No matter how good the picture quality becomes, quality programming is to me by far more important. That my friends is the big picture.

yours is a fairly common view, but there is also a large contingent who believe the content we have today is the best it's ever been. I include at least a few prominent tv critics among this latter group.

There was junk programming in the olden golden days of television, just as there is now. I've read at least a couple articles which have compared the network programming lineups from back in the 50's, 60's, 70's etc, and as it turns out, those days had their fair share of entirely forgettable programming too. Time can fade bad memories, however, and mercifully, we can only recall the classics. :D

[LaserEdge]

What you say is otherwise perfectly valid, but there was some counter evidence which seemed to confirm his employment. It was a time he slipped up and posted a picture of a behind-the-scenes Samsung training session which revealed an 81 Series being compared to another panel, and he talked about it in the first-person, how much better it was, etc. That post under his go81 moniker was subsequently purged by the mods, as part of a bulk deletion which tends to occur for each of his bannings.

In any case, I'm tired of talking about him.. he is what he is.. take the good with the (mostly) bad, I guess.

I may have missed it, but have the official wattage numbers been posted yet? How do the 81 Series compare to existing lcd wattage numbers in equivalent sizes? I would expect a reduction, of course, but I'm curious as to how much. I'm all about efficiency, man.

If you want I have a wattage meter I can plug the LNT4081F into whenever I get it. Magnolia AV has not made it certain as to when exactly I will get the panel. After I return from my business trip to CA this week going to see if there is anything at all I can do to get the panel this weekend.

[LaserEdge]

In my understanding the design of LED BL is perverting convective heat dissipation and this may led to unfortunate results. The bottom line – the problem does exist! So the life expectancy and spectral characteristics of LED BL can degrade fester then originally anticipated. Indirectly this has been confirmed by my local dealer who told me that service plan price for LED BL TV will be determined shortly and most likely will be higher then CCFL sets.

If they are operating hotter than 50C then it certainly is an issue.

[CruelInventions]

If you want I have a wattage meter I can plug the LNT4081F into whenever I get it.

cool, thanks! And no rush, just whenever you can get around to it. :)

[greenland]

After reading the last couple of pages here today I almost long for the old black and white RCA I grew up with in the 50s. It sure isn't due to the quality of it's picture, but the message and the quality of the programs from the Golden Age of TV.

Some of you speak of these new sets like you are in search of the Holy Grail. Although the ultimate (for a short time) display is probably around the corner in a few years it is still folly to put so much faith in a machine you have so little control.

I like a nice picture, but I'd be thrilled with a better message (content) like we had 50 years ago. No matter how good the picture quality becomes, quality programming is to me by far more important. That my friends is the big picture.

You must be kidding. 50 years ago TV programming was very limited, and mostly saccharine, maudlin dreck that made Touched By an Angel look almost Shakespearean by comparison.

Nostalgia is not what it used to be, and what's more, it never was!.

...

[CruelInventions]

wow, you're operating with a sharper scalpel than I, greenland. Cutting straight to the heart, with no suction nor anesthesia. :D

[D92Mike]

You must be kidding. 50 years ago TV programming was very limited, and mostly saccharine, maudlin dreck that made Touched By an Angel look almost Shakespearean by comparison.

Nostalgia is not what it used to be, and what's more, it never was!.

...
With at least one MAJOR exception: THE TWILIGHT ZONE:D

[glow11]

I like a nice picture, but I'd be thrilled with a better message (content) like we had 50 years ago. No matter how good the picture quality becomes, quality programming is to me by far more important. That my friends is the big picture.

Yes, I long for the the days when Fred Flinstone & Barney Rubble would gladly sell you a cigarette!

And dont tell me people weren't over-obsessing over the latest in TV technology:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-z5qrM2NR7g&mode=related&search=

[Rolfiboy]

In my understanding the design of LED BL is perverting convective heat dissipation and this may led to unfortunate results. The bottom line – the problem does exist! So the life expectancy and spectral characteristics of LED BL can degrade fester then originally anticipated. Indirectly this is confirmed by my local dealer who told me that service plan price for LED BL TV will be determined shortly and most likely will be higher then CCFL sets.

Maybe for the first generation LEDBLU, but this is the second generation and high power LEDs have reached better effeciency than CCFL since the first generation wich wasn't very effecient. On the elektronik board there isnt need for a high voltage driver to the CCFL, and therefor alot less heat generated.

Actually LEDs are more robust(they are used in very harsh environment like in the oil industry) than CCFL(which Estimated Time To Failure is 60000hours). Many is confusing the LEDs with the organic LEDs with are very sensitive to temperatures and has an ETTF of about 25000hours at 25C. Today the ETTF of normal LEDs is expected to be between 100000-1000000hours. So do not exspect your LED TV to burn out before your CCFL TV.

[Humzai]

I too would appreciate a pm about the retailer that has it discounted.

[greenland]

With at least one MAJOR exception: THE TWILIGHT ZONE:D

Major exceptions are what Nostalgia is all about. Someone finds a diamond in a midden, and fifty years later, they have filtered out all memory of the dung heap.:D

[greenland]

Reality Check:

I've got your Golden Age of TV, right here.

May 9, 1961. FCC Chairman Newton Minnow gave his vast wasteland speech.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wasteland_speech

[mark_1080p]

Current top spec Sharp panel has 2500:1 native contrast.Not true, 3000:1 is the spec if you check out the model specs at a site like abt. They announced 3000:1 when they introduced the panel, so unless Sharp downgraded it it is 3000:1 native.

Sharp link is here http://www.sharpusa.com/products/ModelDetailedSpecs/0,1161,1812-,00.html

3000:1 native.

[HTPC4ME]

i would also like a pm of a source with a lower than msrp of a 40 and or 46in

Same here.


Kevin, please come back and make another post to whack this thread back on topic. :p

[slouque1]

I just called my local BB and Mag and asked if they were going to carry the Samsung 71 or 81 series and they had no idea what I was talking about. I wish these LCDS would hit the shelves soon so I could start reading some reviews. I'm tired of reading the one review on cnet.

[shishghate]

PM sent.

Please send my way too...;)

[____]

Not true, 3000:1 is the spec if you check out the model specs at a site like abt. They announced 3000:1 when they introduced the panel, so unless Sharp downgraded it it is 3000:1 native.

Sharp link is here http://www.sharpusa.com/products/ModelDetailedSpecs/0,1161,1812-,00.html

3000:1 native.

That's just marketing. That "3000:1" actually measures 2500:1 static and is marketed in Europe&Japan as 2500:1 panel.

No more PMs from me, sorry.

[mark_1080p]

Nostalgia is not what it used to be, and what's more, it never was!Current low life sleeze and politically correct propaganda that dominates the air is not exactly inspirational, with all the great technology, where is the quality in content? Fortunately, one can find it but one needs to be choosy.

[greenland]

Sharp sues Samsung for LCD patent infringments. Case to be heard in Texas.(Shades of SED case). Sharp may turn out to be the actual 81 killer.

http://news.zdnet.com/2100-9595_22-6201147.html

[Flash01]

In my understanding the design of LED BL is perverting convective heat dissipation and this may led to unfortunate results. The bottom line – the problem does exist! So the life expectancy and spectral characteristics of LED BL can degrade fester then originally anticipated. Indirectly this has been confirmed by my local dealer who told me that service plan price for LED BL TV will be determined shortly and most likely will be higher then CCFL sets.

I can't back this by facts or anything (regarding a potential Samsung heating problem), but unless one is driving the LED improperly (such as ganging them in parallel directly or voltage fluctuations), I would think that even if the TV is running somewhat hot this TV would last quite long enough, considering the product cycles these days. CCFL, mostly due to power cycles and vibrations, typically have a lower life expectancy than LEDs.

Still, you have a point when you say that service plans might be more expensive for LED BLUs because a) it is new technology and technicians are not as accustomed to it and should require more efforts (time, different parts) than CCFL LCDs and b) it is a new manufacturing process and the QC process might not be as tight as a CCFL design. If I had a service company I would initially charge more to service a 81 than a 65 series.



Just my 2 cents.

[sanctified]

Please send my way too...;)

Can anyone PM me the information also?

Thanks.

[mark_1080p]

That's just marketing. That "3000:1" actually measures 2500:1 static and is marketed in Europe&Japan as 2500:1 panel.[/B]
Well, we could say the same about the 25K series 71 marketing or the 100K series 81 then. 3000:1 is the spec for the d92 series, like it or not, those are the facts, all specs are subject to scrutiny.

[____]

Sharp sues Samsung for LCD patent infringments. Case to be heard in Texas.(Shades of SED case). Sharp may turn out to be the actual 81 killer.

http://news.zdnet.com/2100-9595_22-6201147.html

This happens all the time in the electronic industry. This lawsuit won't stop Samsung from selling LCDs.

[randalthor]

Can anyone PM me the information also?

Thanks.

I would also like a PM from anyone who knows where I can find the 40in for less than msrp.:D

[niksem]

please, send a pm to me as well

[sanctified]

I just clicked through all of samsung's "authorized" online resellers linked directly from samsung's website and was unable to find the 81 series listed anywhere below MSRP. I call shenanigans.

[greenland]

This happens all the time in the electronic industry. This lawsuit won't stop Samsung from selling LCDs.

SamPO( Samsung Publicity Operations) whistling past the graveyard!.:D

[snowstorm81]

I would like to understand the business model Samsung management implempented when they decided to produce the 81 series with the glossy glass panel. Curious to understand if the glass panel selection was established by engineering design, cost/performance trade-offs, marketing research (customer acceptance), or other reasons?

I don't personally understand why you guys is complaining about the glossy finish of the panel or the bezels - would never in my mind buy a laptop or LCD without Super Clear or similiar. Please buy the 70" you anti Super Clear guys on forum don't want the glossy panel: http://www.samsung.com/uk/products/television/tftlcd/le52f96bdxxeu.asp

More important issues: How does the LED demo works
1) Is it a pre-programmed demo showing an still image (or video snippet) of SmartLighting feature? If so - bogus
2) Does it do the demo in real-time processing on any source, showing an split screen? If so - nice work Samsung.

More over - isn't it overkill with both LEDMotion Plus and MoviePlus (i.e FilmMode in US). Or is it the LedMotion Plus feature that realizes the LED Scanning algorithm?
What is the diffrence between AutoMotion Plus and MoviePlus, both seems to create additional frames by interpolation / averaging or something. The first one however seems to have more hardware resources to complete the algorithm in a more accurate and faster way. All M8 owners (65-series) seems to swith that option though it creates lag or something...

Member ____: Any info on why Samsung Europe and Samsung Korea destroys my BLACK christmas buy only providing screen sizes big as my window and skipping 37" - 46" for the F96 (EU) / F91 (ASIA) series?

[spincut]

I was concerned about the same, like when viewing the bottom picture. However, I saw this commercial earlier today, paying specific attention to whether or not it exhibits the same blue halo effects in person, without any possible computer monitor or camera distortions to muddy the visual waters. I can reassure you that the blue rings/halo effects are part of the commercial itself, so no worries, at least for this particular screen shot.

Yeah but the pictures you posted were not the supposed "show whats really going on" gamasized versions, and it wasnt just that commercial that had the glow, i said the picture/s with glow, meaning the other blue-ish ones as well, so it had be concerned that they may have been exhibiting a halo due to their glow being a in a black dimmed zone.

Yea I have the 60XBR1 (which rarely gets watched) and the Panny 58PX600U. I've not been an LCD guy but at a casually glancing at Sammy's new offerings I really like the 65 and 71 series LCDs and personally I'd get one of those over a Panny plasma in a heart beat. The Pioneer Kuros to me don't look as nice as something like the 71 in a bright showroom. However, this is for my home theater in the basement and i still haven't had a chance to see a Kuro in a semi-darkened room. Hopefully I can see the 81 and 6010 here shortly and see how these two fantastic TVs compare.

I was considering the panny 700u since it's the only 42" that can do 1080p and it might solve my glare in the dark issue, but of course i'm still considering thre samsung 81's led bl will solve that hopefully.

heck even the 60 XBR1 than i'm getting exhanged suffers a bit from the glare issue, i think due to it being light driven and part LCD, but the settings making it easier to adjust (picture instead of bl and the glare eases faster before it gets too dim), so i'm fine with the upgrade to the XBR5 i'll be getting, even though it's the same lighting system.

Did any of you noticed a couple of cooling fans on the back of 81F? Now we know why!

<<the brightness and color of an LED degrades as temperature increases. For example, red can lose 50 percent of its luminance with higher temperature>>.

http://www.lairdtech.com/pages/news/FlatPanelSolution.asp

as has been discussed, arent those the dual stereo subwoofers (which i think are a total waste and better not take up extra room since i dont need them and want my tv to be as sleek as possible), but if they arent, i hope whatever cooling it has doesnt make noise like the plasma tv's.



No more PMs from me, sorry.

yeah sheesh, why are so many people "asking" for pm's?? now you all ruined it!

well, i hope you only said that because it's too much hassle to field requests, because i was going to pm you ;)

[greenland]

A jury trial will take years. In the meantime, Sharp cannot get an injunction to prevent Sammy's from selling televisions or anything else without first demonstrating a substantial likelihood of success. Don't hold your breath.

Canon kept assuming the same thing, in their SED case in Texas, and they got a rude awakening. Is there any more banal and meaningless advise than" Don't hold your breath". Who the hell does, except when underwater. Perhaps Canon now should!.:D

[Alex the Great]

I can't back this by facts or anything (regarding a potential Samsung heating problem), but unless one is driving the LED improperly (such as ganging them in parallel directly or voltage fluctuations), I would think that even if the TV is running somewhat hot this TV would last quite long enough, considering the product cycles these days. CCFL, mostly due to power cycles and vibrations, typically have a lower life expectancy than LEDs.

Still, you have a point when you say that service plans might be more expensive for LED BLUs because a) it is new technology and technicians are not as accustomed to it and should require more efforts (time, different parts) than CCFL LCDs and b) it is a new manufacturing process and the QC process might not be as tight as a CCFL design. If I had a service company I would initially charge more to service a 81 than a 65 series.



Just my 2 cents.

Please do not blame me, I am just a messenger. I came across this article and brought it to your attention. I hope that you are right and we have nothing to wary about.
But please note that those LSD is sandwiched between so many layers of PCBs, films and foils, and on top of that partitioned to provide LD. Even small heat dissipation has virtually no room for escaping. The spectral quality of LED BL based on RGB “equilibrium” and if we (just for a second) assumed that temperature might differently affect each of these LED we could expect some color misbalance. OTOH CCFL is known to be “white” source and emission spectra of which less affected by temperature. Actually LCD monitor/TV even needs time to warm up for optimum performance.

Anyway the time will show.

[drew138]

The PM was for a yahoo store that was already linked to from this thread a few days ago (which translates into about 80 pages back :-)

It's not worth posting it again as the vendor has a totally cheesy site and no reseller rating; and has a 200 shipping fee that brings it within striking distance of the sale that vans had on the set recently.

I was surprised to see how many people there are ready to pull the trigger on this thing with almost no diligence via the volume of PMs requested.

Drew

[davidjschenk]

Reality Check:

I've got your Golden Age of TV, right here.

May 9, 1961. FCC Chairman Newton Minnow gave his vast wasteland speech.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wasteland_speech

Yeah, and he was right. Andy Griffith? Get Smart? Gilligan's Island??? These shows were, in my opinion, worse than refuse; they encouraged people to think less. The main difference I see between then and now is that back then people actually had to be encouraged to think less.

-David

[drew138]

Regarding the yahoo store referenced above; the web presence of the store stinks, but the address on the website links to a nice house:


http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?v=2&cp=nct30589h35x&style=o&lvl=2&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&scene=5193320&sp=Point.nct3kz89h3bq_9808%20Palma%20Vista%20Way%2C%20Boca%2 0Raton%2C%20FL%2033428-3500%2C%20United%20States___&encType=1

Couldn't resist since we're sooooo OT anyway.

[davidjschenk]

Couldn't resist since we're sooooo OT anyway.

Yeah. We're all waiting on the man (Kevin, I mean).

[bearfun]

retailers are typically covered by the manufactorer for 2-3 years so that extended waranty dont mean any extra cost to them its all gravy any repairs after that are just small potatos compared to there profit.

[drewde]

Waiting on the man...

Kevin throw us a bone!!!:eek:

[davidjschenk]

Hello everyone,

I've been looking at one of Kevin's pictures again. Is it just me, or is there much more blue glow (possibly a halo effect) coming of the planet on the right side of the screen than there is at bottom left? Could this be a genuine artifact, then?

-David

EDIT: The first photo is the original. The second is a little Irfan edit I did to show what I'm talking about. What do you guys think? Am I nuts/blind?

[tombaker]

Sharp sues Samsung for LCD patent infringments. Case to be heard in Texas.(Shades of SED case). Sharp may turn out to be the actual 81 killer.

http://news.zdnet.com/2100-9595_22-6201147.html

These case never stop the product from being sold NEVER. It could effect a patent exchange or cash but not the products.

Examples

Microsoft windows
AMD clones of INTC microcode
Blackberry being sued for their always on push technology and losing....cost about 800 Million...but they kept on shipping.
case after case after case.

Many of these patent can be worked arounded and the one that can not are often invalid because they were a logical progression of the tech.

If you invented the rabbit ear antenna with the major patent being the twin ears....it won't holdup.

The poor guy issuing the patents have a hard time understanding if something is really new or not. And then there is the old prior art thing....like a university professor publishing his paper without patenting his tests

[tombaker]

Hello everyone,

I've been looking at one of Kevin's pictures again:


Is it just me, or is there much more blue glow (possibly a halo effect) coming of the planet on the right side of the screen than there is at bottom left? Could this be a genuine artifact, then?
-David

around the planet its a genuine aspect of the art. Blue Planet....with its atmosphere

its the artists design

[davidjschenk]

around the planet its a genuine aspect of the art. Blue Planet....with its atmosphere

its the artists design

Hi Tom,

No no no, I get the atmospheric part. That's not what I'm referring to (at least, I don't think it is). After the atmo bit, the top part of the screen has a blue glow that I initially thought was more atmo, but then I took a harder look at it on a trusty old CRT in my office, and the lower left part of the screen does NOT have that same glow. Is that a halo artifact, or just sloppy (because inconsistent) artwork from the artist's rendering?

Yours,

David

[pakotlar]

Current low life sleeze and politically correct propaganda that dominates the air is not exactly inspirational, with all the great technology, where is the quality in content? Fortunately, one can find it but one needs to be choosy.

this has nothing to do with our discussion, but I would second the opinion that 50 years ago, programming sucked for the most part except with regards to all things the twilight zone. if you want, you can relive all your old memories with 50's era collections, no need to pollute the thread.

on topic. the 81 series looks rediculous, but could we please have some more pictures of it from the guy that owns one? this is going to be my first lcd purchase since S32A10, which we ended up returning. it is very expensive, so I want to see as many pics as possible to whet my appetite :D.

[pakotlar]

A jury trial will take years. In the meantime, Sharp cannot get an injunction to prevent Sammy's from selling televisions or anything else without first demonstrating a substantial likelihood of success. Don't hold your breath.

in other news, sharp directors frustrated that they can't buy one cuz they outta stock man!

[1080z]

If you didn't grow up in the 50s then I'm not sure you're qualified to judge the programming of the 50s and 60s. We were living in the Dark Ages and programmers didn't race to sex to gratify the audience. In the 50s I remember some very entertaining shows that had some standard of decency. We had several hours per week of outstanding live drama plus live variety shows where you could actually understand the lyrics of the songs. I love the rock and roll of the Hendixes, Cream, etc., but none of them could match the quality of performance by Nat King Cole seen live for years on national tv. Everybody has a right to their opinion, but I was there and I'd still choose to watch "Topper" or "Alfred Hitchock Presents" over just about any series on TV in recent years.

[pelowell]

Hi Tom,

No no no, I get the atmospheric part. That's not what I'm referring to (at least, I don't think it is). After the atmo bit, the top part of the screen has a blue glow that I initially thought was more atmo, but then I took a harder look at it on a trusty old CRT in my office, and the lower left part of the screen does NOT have that same glow. Is that a halo artifact, or just sloppy (because inconsistent) artwork from the artist's rendering?

Yours,

David

Hi David,

I think Tom is right, and you as well, it is the source material causing the blue glow. We are talking CGI here, and me thinks the artist got to this point, looked at it, and said good enough. After all, it took a bunch of AV nerds two days to spot it, he probably figured the general populace would never notice it in a moving scene.

jm2cents
Perry

[DPowers]

Just curious why you picked this thread to bring up 50's content. As you can see it tends to take the thread off topic and create a pretty negative attitude. I personally would rather discuss if this display is the real deal, where I might demo one, and see more picks. I was born in the seventies and regard pretty much everything in my childhood as ancient and out of touch. Guess what we think of programming from the fifties...pretty much the same as I would regard Nat King Cole...and his daughter.

[glow11]

If you didn't grow up in the 50s then I'm not sure you're qualified to judge the programming of the 50s and 60s. We were living in the Dark Ages and programmers didn't race to sex to gratify the audience. In the 50s I remember some very entertaining shows that had some standard of decency. We had several hours per week of outstanding live drama plus live variety shows where you could actually understand the lyrics of the songs. I love the rock and roll of the Hendixes, Cream, etc., but none of them could match the quality of performance by Nat King Cole seen live for years on national tv. Everybody has a right to their opinion, but I was there and I'd still choose to watch "Topper" or "Alfred Hitchock Presents" over just about any series on TV in recent years.

Assuming you could find the material, why not watch it on a brand spankin' new LED backlit, 1080p TV! :) Best way to get the grandkids to watch it and not roll their eyes :)

[davidjschenk]

Hi David,

I think Tom is right, and you as well, it is the source material causing the blue glow. We are talking CGI here, and me thinks the artist got to this point, looked at it, and said good enough. After all, it took a bunch of AV nerds two days to spot it, he probably figured the general populace would never notice it in a moving scene.

jm2cents
Perry

Hi Perry,

Man, I hope so, because apart from the threat of artifacts, everything just seems delicious. I need it to perform well when viewed close up, though, because it'll be a desktop computer monitor and my current plan is to go for the 40" model.

We'll see. We'll see...

Hey Kevin, when you do take more pictures, how about some close-ups so we can really scrutinize and try to see when and where the artifacts begin to emerge? Thanks.

Yours,

David

[mark_1080p]

this has nothing to do with our discussion, but I would second the opinion that 50 years ago, programming sucked for the most part except with regards to all things the twilight zone. if you want, you can relive all your old memories with 50's era collections, no need to pollute the thread.Sorry, but I did not make a comment about old programming so don't pollute the thread with false information.

[drew138]

Is it just me, or is there much more blue glow (possibly a halo effect) coming of the planet on the right side of the screen


I think these pictures were taken with some level of haste and for lack of additional information they have been over scrutinized and over analyzed. Although the pics are fairly impressive, I think they are carrying too much weight here. Personally, I hope that kevin doesn't come back as it will likely only add to the rush of chaos and confusion. Short of Kevin posting more pics of higher resolution in better controlled lighting conditions, we simply need more owners and more data points.

There is a guy scheduled to take delivery of a 52" on Friday. He's our next victim! Hope he has a dark viewing room, a good camera and some good source material.

Drew

PS: Kevin, thanks for all your posts / pics on the subject. They have been awesome and much appreciated. No disrespect intended above! Enjoy your set; we're all jealous

[pelowell]

Two things I think suck in life right now: Skeeters, and the fact that up here in the Vancouver, BC area, we are not gonna be able to lay eyes on one of these for a week or two best. Anybody that's privy to their exisitence (IE BB or Futureshop) seems to be indicating a 9/15 "in store" date. If anybody in the lower mainland hears anything different, please PM me!!! The BB guy I talked to yesterday says they are not in the system yet, and Futureshop had a seminar in Whistler on them a couple weeks back, and Samsung told them middle of September. Big Bummer.

[greenland]

You shouldn’t have gotten nasty because you clearly don’t understand what’s going on. The two cases are easily distinguishable. Nano-Proprietary licensed its technology to Canon in 1999. Nano-Proprietary argued that Canon breached the license by bringing in Toshiba as a partner. This was a breach of contract case that the court quickly decided on a summary judgment motion because there were no material facts in dispute for a jury to decide. In contrast, Sharp claims it had negotiated with Samsung for an LCD patent license, but that an agreement was never reached. Accordingly, Sharp has requested a jury to decide the disputed factual issue of whether Samsung stole its technology. This will take time.

Go back and read your post. You made your case, and then you just had to throw in your little condescending " don't hold your breath" closing remark. If you want to lecture people about their writing attitudes, then start by not throwing in such superfluous, talking down, closing comments. In order to to be treated with respect, practice giving it to others. You were the one that choose to comment on my post, and in such a condescending manner.
The case has been filed. That is where it stands, and you are not in a position to be so declarative about how it will proceed.

...

[pelowell]

Go back and read your post. You made your case, and then you just had to throw in your little condescending " don't hold your breath" closing remark. If you want to lecture people about their writing attitudes, then start by not throwing in such superfluous, talking down, closing comments. In order to to be treated with respect, practice giving it to others. You were the one that choose to comment on my post, and in such a condescending manner.
The case has been filed. That is where it stands, and you are not in a position to be so declarative about how it will proceed.

...

hmmm, "dont hold your breath", a pretty common cliche, not often used offensively, or regarded as such

then, "banal and meaningless", hehehe, sure, that's nice....

chill out guys, these are tv's

[Zankou]

Stop squabbling over irrelevancies and focus on the 81 series.

[greenland]

So, what ever happened to the first 81 owner, Kevin from Best Buy. He said that yesterday was his day off, and he was going to post follow up information and pictures.

...

[Haidef]

Hello everyone,

I've been looking at one of Kevin's pictures again. Is it just me, or is there much more blue glow (possibly a halo effect) coming of the planet on the right side of the screen than there is at bottom left? Could this be a genuine artifact, then?

-David

EDIT: The first photo is the original. The second is a little Irfan edit I did to show what I'm talking about. What do you guys think? Am I nuts/blind?

This is the same scene on a dell 2407:

http://img168.imageshack.us/img168/1020/5thelementdell2407yw6.jpg

samsung 81:

http://img168.imageshack.us/img168/9404/5th20elementkf4.jpg

[Flash01]

So, what ever happened to the first 81 owner, Kevin from Best Buy. He said that yesterday was his day off, and he was going to post follow up information and pictures.

...

Probably enjoying the set with his GF or his friends... I would do the same. He already did us a great service by giving us this *preview*. From what a few of the guys told us here, some stores shipped Monday so the delay for more owners shouldn't be all that long.

But I'm not kidding myself, more pictures or feedback won't do much until I actually can see one myself... :)

[HTPC4ME]

____, stop plugging Samsung...

everyone else, stop talking about lawsuits...

stop arguing about 50s programming...

stop bickering about gloss/no gloss...

stop complaining about ____...

stop asking for PMs...

and get back on topic!!!

[/rant]

[Fjorko]

____, stop plugging Samsung...

everyone else, stop talking about lawsuits...

stop arguing about 50s programming...

stop bickering about gloss/no gloss...

stop complaining about ____...

stop asking for PMs...

and get back on topic!!!

[/rant]

OK I'll start - does the 81 (F96 series here in EU ) support 1080p/24 ?

[ahwig60]

why does it look so good on that dell 2407, that that a lcd or plasma,

[rpgmaster1]

why does it look so good on that dell 2407, that that a lcd or plasma,

That Dell is a LCD monitor used for PCs. I was wondering about that bluish white glow on the Samsung 81. It looks too unnatural and not as realistic as the Dell monitor.

[philly-drew]

Hello,

I am a newbie to the whole Flat Panel TV realm. I won a Sylvania 26” TV at a charitable event last weekend and now I’m wanting one for my living room. I started doing some research, went to Sears and BB to look at TVs and thought that the Samsung LN-T4665F had the best colors that I saw. Once I started doing some research I realized that:

1) The technology in the flat screen industry changes even faster then in the computer industry.
2) Not all flat screens are created equally and that sometimes a cheaper model can look as good as a more expensive model.
3) You pay a premium for the latest technology.

My opinion on the glare: In previous TVs that I’ve owned (all CRTs) glare has always pissed me off, especially when I may have had a light or a window in the reflection and it was actually interfering with part of the picture. When I was looking at the LN-T4665F in the store, the glare was a little bothersome but it was unnoticeable when there was an image on the screen (unlike my older CTRs). But when black areas or dark areas were in the picture the reflections were noticeable. For me, I like to enjoy what I’m watching without seeing reflections. Regardless of how black the blacks are if I’m seeing my reflection in it then it defeats the purpose of a black black. Having said that, the LN-T4665F had by far the best colors that were on display at the store and the display was remarkably crisp. I even used a remote control on a LN-T4661F to see if I could tune it to look as good but I couldn’t. IMHO the LN-T4665F had better colors and more sharpness then the plasma TVs on display.

Then I found this thread and found out about the LN-T4681F. I started reading at the beginning of this thread, skipping ahead a after a while. I learned a WHOLE lot from all of you. For all of you on-topic posters who have added valuable content to this thread: THANK YOU. Now I have a decision to make. There is so much I like about this TV that it is unbelievable. I really don’t even need to have seen it to like it because if it is better then the LN-T4665F then it has to be awesome! The only thing that I would consider a negative would be the glare, however it would not stop me from purchasing it. It would only make me think that this is the best TV available and that someday we can get the same picture on a TV without the glare.

Some question for those who are more knowledgeable:
1) What is the cause of the glare on the TV? Is it a glass coating or a film on the screen or something?
2) Is the crispness and exceptional color quality due to the same thing that causes the glare?
3) Is there any flat (or matte I think) LCDs on the market that have nearly as good a picture?
4) What is the difference between Contrast ratio and “Dynamic” Contrast Ratio? Someone from Tweeter told me something similar to: “It’s like a dynamic IP address that can change except that in the cast of DCR it can change with the signal. In reality it probably has a “Static” Contrast ratio of like 8,000 to 1” That really didn’t help me too much.
5) Would it be OK to order this TV online or is it better to order it from a brick and mortar store?
6) Someone else told me to look out for something like a “bad pixel ratio” return policy from online merchants. Can anyone explain that a little better?
7) What is the difference between an 8 bit TV and a 10 bit TV.
There seems to be so much confusion about the actual specs on this TV. According to this link (http://www.vanns.com/shop/servlet/item/features/462556160) there is a 120 Hz refresh rate on this TV, but in reality it is using technology to achieve the same results, right?
I know I asked a ton of questions and had a long winded first post but this is really the best place to get the proper answers.

Thanks again!

Drew :)

[glow11]

That Dell is a LCD monitor used for PCs. I was wondering about that bluish white glow on the Samsung 81. It looks too unnatural and not as realistic as the Dell monitor.

The 81 is overwhelming the camera Kevin shot it with and is overexposed. Plus he said he hadn't calibrated it yet, and since he's awol, might have to wait to see one in person to know for sure.

[greenland]

OK I'll start - does the 81 (F96 series here in EU ) support 1080p/24 ?

Go to abteletronics. Add the .com part, because this site blocks out the link. Go to LCD TVs. Page down to Samsung 4081. Scroll down to where you will find a link to download a pdf file, 95 pages owner's manual of the 81 series. It should have the answers to your question and many others.

Also, if someone has the ability to put up the pdf of the owners manual on a hosting site, and post a link to it, that would be very helpful to potential owners. The owners manual is a great source to answer most questions.

[spincut]

This is the same scene on a dell 2407:

http://img168.imageshack.us/img168/1020/5thelementdell2407yw6.jpg

samsung 81:

http://img168.imageshack.us/img168/9404/5th20elementkf4.jpg

Ok since at first glance when i look at plasmas the oversaturated color of an LCD seems better until someone tells me the plasma has higher color accuracy, i really cannot tell which picture above is supposed to be a more accurate representation.....

i would hope though that the samsung is, because if it's not supposed to be that turqoisish color and glary like that, then i may not even want to go the LCd rout anymore (even though the comparison shot is another LCD).

[Josh7289]

Remember, Kevin said the pictures looked nothing like what he was seeing. None of that glow or anything.

Seriously, stop being crazy about these pictures.

[HTPC4ME]

i would hope though that the samsung is, because if it's not supposed to be that turqoisish color and glary like that, then i may not even want to go the LCd rout anymore (even though the comparison shot is another LCD).

Kevin's camera was overexposed by the high light output, causing the colors to look oversaturated. In realtiy, I bet there is much more color detail there than what we see in the picture; it would look like the picture on the top, only brighter.

[greenland]

Go to abt electronics website. LCD TV section.

Go to Samsung 4081, and scroll down to pdf dowload link for owner's manual. You will see that there are a ton of color, gamma etc options for the 81 models. Kevin said that he took those pictures, as it came out of the box, and he had not done any settings tweaks. Stop with all the Bill Frist Remote diagnostics of the pictures please. It is all pointless.

..

[slumpey326]

I say we just let kevin enjoy his new toy. I believe someone else is getting one this weekend so he/she will be the next person to review it and give us another opinion of this new technology

just my opinion, congrats kevin.

I pre-ordered one but they (best buy) said it would be around the 15th of september. I am hoping it is sooner than later.

[vtms]

Kevin posted some great pictures. Honestly, I saw nothing in them to doubt the performance of this set. At least not yet. In fact, I would be worried if I didn't see a glow surrounding the explosion, crushed blacks or oversaturated colors. That's exactly how pictures of an LED LD LCD should look like. It means the camera was unable to handle the dynamic range of this set. The eyes certainly will, though.

My point is that, while these pictures have obvious flaws, they are the "correct" flaws, especially considering the way in which these pictures were taken (zooming in would have helped probably).

While the pictures received a lot of attention, I don't think the same level of scrutiny was given to Kevin's descriptions of what he actually saw. Again, here's a link to a post listing all his impressions of his set so far.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=11374904&postcount=3913
Highlights: Halos visible only in the photos. Black levels lower than what was captured by the camera. Pictures didn't come close to doing justice to this TV. No visible artifacts so far. Didn't notice motion blur watching Saving Private Ryan (!!). Zero bleeding of light to black bars during 4:3 content.

Obviously, more owners need to report their impressions but at least what the first owner said has been pretty encouraging.

[spincut]

Kevin's camera was overexposed by the high light output, causing the colors to look oversaturated. In realtiy, I bet there is much more color detail there than what we see in the picture; it would look like the picture on the top, only brighter.

I can definetly see that being true, but keep in mind one rather valid complaint about LCD colors is that they tend to be a bit oversaturated, which is why the jarring comparison had me a little concerned, even if the other one was also an LCD (a very good one though with a very new high color gamut panel).

[DSET]

This is the same scene on a dell 2407:

http://img168.imageshack.us/img168/1020/5thelementdell2407yw6.jpg

samsung 81:

http://img168.imageshack.us/img168/9404/5th20elementkf4.jpg

did you take that pic with a camera or print screen screenshot?
that looks like a screenshot
you cant compare that to a pic of a tv with a digital camera

[yoscott]

Yeah, everyone has to feel for Kevin. I was looking back through the thread. He posted that he was the proud new owner of his 81 on 8/19!! It's only been 3 freaking days and we're all screaming for more!! The poor guy can't get a break.

Although I will say this much. One would think that if he was having issues or problems with his set that he would be jumping on here to try to get some answers OR to let everyone know about them. I forget who posted several posts back, but maybe a happy owner is a silent owner!

None the less, with these puppies pushing $4k MSRP, I still have to see one and play with one before I'm gonna buy one......

[glow11]

Probably the best way to capture the detail AND brightness of the 81 on a standard camera would be to shield half the screen with a tinted piece of plastic like in this video provided earlier by VTMS...you can see the unshielded shots at the end of this video look as garish and overexposed as the shots Kevin posted.


http://www.cs.ubc.ca/labs/imager/video/2007/Rempel_Ldr2Hdr/Ldr2Hdr-Final.mov

Also, during a bright section of this video, pause and look at how overexposed the scene looks on the brightside.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dUShQmIPKBU

[vtms]

Right, glow. Every picture ever taken of BrightSide HDR LCD looked like a complete disaster, yet in person, people struggled to pick their jaws up from the floor. While 81 Series certainly doesn't display high dynamic range, it certainly looks like it might be classified as having "medium" dynamic range while all the rest of the flat panels out there, perhaps with the exception of SED and maybe 8G 1080p Pioneers, are in the low dynamic range category.

[pakotlar]

Sorry, but I did not make a comment about old programming so don't pollute the thread with false information.

huh?!:rolleyes: get back on topic! seriously, no one cares, please stop polluting this thread. thanks!

[pelowell]

Probably the best way to capture the detail AND brightness of the 81 on a standard camera would be to shield half the screen with a tinted piece of plastic like in this video provided earlier by VTMS...you can see the unshielded shots at the end of this video look as garish and overexposed as the shots Kevin posted.


http://www.cs.ubc.ca/labs/imager/video/2007/Rempel_Ldr2Hdr/Ldr2Hdr-Final.mov

Also, during a bright section of this video, pause and look at how overexposed the scene looks on the brightside.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dUShQmIPKBU

I'm going to echo what many have already pointed out, pictures of these sets for online display, while quite pretty, are by their nature quite useless from a visual standpoint. Hearing what sort of statistics might be gleaned from properly measured imaging done under controlled settings has some merit, but really, what we're seeing on forum here is little more than a proud owner showing off his new toy. More power to him for that, cause when I get mine you can bet I'm gonna show it off!! But examining these images in such minutae is getting to be quite the bore. I want to hear more about the "oh wow, it does that, too!!!" features, and the neighbor coming in to check it out and not leaving for two movies and a ball game. That to me is much more valuable.

Slightly off topic, but to illustrate my point, I'm a Bose fan. And for the hard core audiophile, Bose is akin to rainbow jimmies on your ice cream cone. Lots of sugar, and not really good for you. But my point is, Bose has got it right. They build stuff that just SOUNDS good to the vast majority of folks. I think Samsung has brought that off in spades with these sets, regardless of what halo's or artifacts or bright areas in the dark someones digital point and shoot picks up.

So, anybody got an LN-T4681f for sale? I'll trade you a nice matte Sony...(kidding!!!)

[greenland]

Although I will say this much. One would think that if he was having issues or problems with his set that he would be jumping on here to try to get some answers OR to let everyone know about them. I forget who posted several posts back, but maybe a happy owner is a silent owner!
....

Since he knows that he is the first owner on here, why would he be trying to get answers from people who have never even seen one.
He bought it at the Best Buy that he works at. He works in the computer section, so if he had some technical questions he probably could get some answers at work, and if it was a serious problem, he would most likely just take it right back to his workplace.

..

[LaserEdge]

Probably the best way to capture the detail AND brightness of the 81 on a standard camera would be to shield half the screen with a tinted piece of plastic like in this video provided earlier by VTMS...you can see the unshielded shots at the end of this video look as garish and overexposed as the shots Kevin posted.

Using a filter for the camera to keep its sensor from being oversaturated is one way to solve the issue. Depending on the camera there are other things one can as well to take a picture that would be more representative of what the human eye sees from an 81.

[yahui168]

I purchased the ln-t5281f from ************** which shipped today. I should receive delivery in 3 to 5 days. I'll take pictures with a Canon PowerShot SD700 IS. I don't have HD DVD or Blu-ray, but I do have a DVD player (Sony DAV-FX80), Tivo HD and Xbox 360. I'll take pictures from each of the three sources.

[HTPC4ME]

I can definetly see that being true, but keep in mind one rather valid complaint about LCD colors is that they tend to be a bit oversaturated, which is why the jarring comparison had me a little concerned, even if the other one was also an LCD (a very good one though with a very new high color gamut panel).

LED color gamut is supposed to be 105% so I'm guessing the 81 will do even better at proper color reproduction than the 2405.

Don't forget that Kevin's set was still uncalibrated so the colors and greyscale were probably way off. I bet it was still at the "vivid" showroom settings, which would explain the oversaturated colors.

[SabinVI]

Went to Magnolia in BB tonight in Las Vegas. They list the in-stock date AND out-of-stock date on the 81 series as 08-26-07.

Kinda weird but I hope that it is a good thing.

[davidjschenk]

Probably the best way to capture the detail AND brightness of the 81 on a standard camera would be to shield half the screen with a tinted piece of plastic like in this video provided earlier by VTMS...you can see the unshielded shots at the end of this video look as garish and overexposed as the shots Kevin posted.


http://www.cs.ubc.ca/labs/imager/video/2007/Rempel_Ldr2Hdr/Ldr2Hdr-Final.mov

Also, during a bright section of this video, pause and look at how overexposed the scene looks on the brightside.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dUShQmIPKBU

Wow. I have never seen HDR before so I really had no idea what its deal was (I mean, I knew it had huge contrast and all). That video, especially with the overlay at the very end, was a kicker.

I'm not looking at the photos anymore. I just have to go see this thing (I know it's not an actual HDR, but it's following the same principle). With luck, we'll have another new owner as early as this Friday and then another one (me) this Sunday. Then we shall see what we shall see.

But now here's the rub: I am not an AV techie, so I don't know what to look for or how best to test the display when I see it on Sunday. Is there any advice from the more knowledgeable members as to what I should do? I figure I'll bring a few basic movies with me, like the Star Wars and LOTR trilogies. If there's black crush to be found, Moria should reveal it, and if there are halos to be seen, the many space scenes in Star Wars should bring them out. But how do I test for color fidelity? Should I haul my whole desktop PC over there to hook it up over DVI --> HDMI? That seems a bit much, doesn't it??? How about just a little laptop w/vga? Should that be enough? Any still photos that you think I should use? (Perhaps upload them or send to me via PM, I guess.) Any other movies some scenes from which you think would provide good tests?

I am totally open to suggestions, here.

-David

[CadJoe]

Went to Magnolia in BB tonight in Las Vegas. They list the in-stock date AND out-of-stock date on the 81 series as 08-26-07.

BB in Houston showed the same dates on both 71 & 81.

CadJoe

[____]

http://i17.tinypic.com/6azfxhy.png

3.0 gamma dell pic. You can see that how grey that starfield looks like. The samsung pic has clearly much much much more contrast. Star field is inky black and planet burns your eyes out. The camera couldn't capture the image what samsung 81 is producing.

[valoidr]

How does BB's reward program work.

Kevin said if you are a new member, you get a discount on first purchase.Its not much, but over time it can add up similiar to a, for lack of a better analogy - a Discover card.

Am looking for a 50" plus and the 5265 is not an option for me[motion]. The 58xp750u is an option due to the price. The Sammy 58" 81 series looks very interesting - but the price OMG:eek:If the Pio's would get right on the price - i'm in! I'm not a HDTV gamer but like PC games from time to time. Children/wifes need ease of use w/o f....ing ithe settings up. Glare is controllable mark 1080p on either[hi!] So whats a poor boy do to?

Long in the tooth.

[spincut]

LED color gamut is supposed to be 105% so I'm guessing the 81 will do even better at proper color reproduction than the 2405.

Don't forget that Kevin's set was still uncalibrated so the colors and greyscale were probably way off. I bet it was still at the "vivid" showroom settings, which would explain the oversaturated colors.

I beleive according to the poster it was a Dell 2407HC and not a 2405, rather large difference, since the 2047 hc is also a higher color gamut monitor and a pretty new one at that.

http://i17.tinypic.com/6azfxhy.png

3.0 gamma dell pic. You can see that how grey that starfield looks like. The samsung pic has clearly much much much more contrast. Star field is inky black and planet burns your eyes out. The camera couldn't capture the image what samsung 81 is producing.

I really dont understand what editing an image after the source shows, it just looks grainy and cruddy like the other ones they did with kevins pics.

One thing though, i dont want the planet to "burn my eyes out", as much i do like the "pop" the LCD's get from extra brightness and their crisp whites, it does literally BURN, if thats what's going to happen any time a non-dimmable light object is on the screen i may want to save myself from going blind.

[CadJoe]

Even if Samsung does post the 81 on their site, we would still have questions cause their site is awful... Here's what we know and don't know (in regards to NOT on spec sheet). Leaving off the obvious, and adding what WE would like to see on spec sheets.

KNOW
A) Justscan on Component & HDMI
B) No DVI input. DVI to HDMI cable needed.
C) Firmware updates via USB
D) MP3 player via USB
E) Inputs do NOT exist on menus until cable plugged in.
F) No Learning Remote - need book with codes.
G)

DUNNO
1) 1080p24 ?
2) True 120hz?
3) 10 bit?
4) Static Ratio ? (and don't say infinite, cause they gave Dynamic a ratio)
5) # of LED zones (X by Y) & qty in each zone for each size.
6) Same glass as 65 or less glossy?
7) Video Processing chipsets ?
8) Image Burn?
9) Power Consumption (Average wattage / hour)
10)

Lets keep this going...

[valoidr]

Even if Samsung does post the 81 on their site, we would still have questions cause their site is awful... Here's what we know and don't know (in regards to NOT on spec sheet). Leaving off the obvious, and adding what WE would like to see on spec sheets.

KNOW
A) Justscan on Component & HDMI
B) No DVI input. DVI to HDMI cable needed.
C) Firmware updates via USB
D) MP3 player via USB
E) Inputs do NOT exist on menus until cable plugged in.
F) No Learning Remote - need book with codes.
G)

DUNNO
1) 1080p24 ?
2) True 120hz?
3) 10 bit?
4) Static Ratio ? (and don't say infinite, cause they gave Dynamic a ratio)
5) # of LED zones (X by Y) & qty in each zone for each size.
6) Same glass as 65 or less glossy?
7) Video Processing chipsets ?
8) Image Burn?
9) Power Consumption (Average wattage / hour)
10)

Lets keep this going...Good post! Samsung as usually ....CYB. Sony's 2008 release will be the "ship that came in" which incorporates the 81 series plus the learnings from the 81 series!

[OreoJoe]

PWM of the LED backlight eliminates the blur that is from the LCD SAH effect. The short light pulse of the LED shortens the hold time. In this way it simulates an impulse display like CRT. The eye persistence remembers the bright intensity of the pulse. Pulse width is used to adjust brightness.

120Hz reduces SAH blur for CCFL BL displays. The LED BL display is not 120Hz because it does not need it.

[drewde]

I noticed on the ABT web site that the PDF specs on the 81 series claims 500k:1 contrast ratio... I thought the 81 series was 100K:1?

I also noticed that on the second page of that same PDF they claim it uses CCFL instead of LED backlight so I guess we should take it with a grain of salt. Is this an official Samsung spec sheet?

[spincut]

Even if Samsung does post the 81 on their site, we would still have questions cause their site is awful... Here's what we know and don't know (in regards to NOT on spec sheet). Leaving off the obvious, and adding what WE would like to see on spec sheets.

KNOW
A) Justscan on Component & HDMI
B) No DVI input. DVI to HDMI cable needed.
C) Firmware updates via USB
D) MP3 player via USB
E) Inputs do NOT exist on menus until cable plugged in.
F) No Learning Remote - need book with codes.
G)

DUNNO
1) 1080p24 ?
2) True 120hz?
3) 10 bit?
4) Static Ratio ? (and don't say infinite, cause they gave Dynamic a ratio)
5) # of LED zones (X by Y) & qty in each zone for each size.
6) Same glass as 65 or less glossy?
7) Video Processing chipsets ?
8) Image Burn?
9) Power Consumption (Average wattage / hour)
10)

Lets keep this going...

"Inputs do NOT exist on menus until cable plugged in."

what does this mean exactly?

also what is image burn? do you mean burn in?

i'd personally (although no one else cares much i guess) would like to know if this monitor has a more eye easy display in the dark, especially with lighter colors, or if the lit zoned images will be even worse.

otherwise yeah, i'd like to know all that ommited stuff too

PWM of the LED backlight eliminates the blur that is from the LCD SAH effect. The short light pulse of the LED shortens the hold time. In this way it simulates an impulse display like CRT. The eye persistence remembers the bright intensity of the pulse. Pulse width is used to adjust brightness.

120Hz reduces SAH blur for CCFL BL displays. The LED BL display is not 120Hz because it does not need it.

say again how this will be like CRT's as it relates to glare (and my previous comment on it). or was that more about motion?

[wiese]

This is the same scene on a dell 2407:

http://img168.imageshack.us/img168/1020/5thelementdell2407yw6.jpg

That JPEG has no EXIF data. Is that a screen grab? If not, what model digital camera was use to take the picture?

[hill_z]

BB in San Carlos, CA has 71 and will put it on display in a few days. 81s are scheduled to arrive on 9/16

[wiese]

"Inputs do NOT exist on menus until cable plugged in."

what does this mean exactly?

digital inputs like HDMI can tell if there is a cable plugged into them so it would be easy to show only the inputs that have cables attached to them in the settings menus.

this is harder with the analog inputs, if they could detect cables plugged in I would be impressed.

[LaserEdge]

I noticed on the ABT web site that the PDF specs on the 81 series claims 500k:1 contrast ratio... I thought the 81 series was 100K:1?

I also noticed that on the second page of that same PDF they claim it uses CCFL instead of LED backlight so I guess we should take it with a grain of salt. Is this an official Samsung spec sheet?

Talking dynamic contrast ratios with LCD LED with LD really doesn't make sense. Contrast ratio on the 81s is completely dynamic. Not dynamic in the time domain sense either which has been done with prior CCFL panels. Every single unique frame displayed on a LCD LED with LD will be done so with a different contrast ratio. It is almost completely pointless to bring contrast ratio into the discussion. Dynamic contrast ratio discussion with CCFL LCD was already murky. LED LCD with LD just turned contrast ratio comparison into in a huge stinky mess. It is not pretty folks.

[bearfun]

I am redoing my home theater as we speak new ONKYO 875 AMP with HQV realta processor
and 2 MIRAGE omnietheater speakers with LRC in each for 6.1 surround .A SONY PLAYSTATION 3,MOTOROLA HD PVR. AND OF COURS MY 52" LNT81 ON A PEERLES BLACK SWING ARM it rotates 180 . ALL HDMI CABELS FROM BLUE JEANS CALBELS HDMI1.3 WITH A MONSTER POWER BOX TO PLUG INTO ,LOGITECH 880 REMOT. just got my samsung duo format player to get.all mounted on omnimount floating glass shelving and of course every thing in black..just repainting my living room now.

[____]

Contrast talk with 81 is over. 81 has enough of it. Nobody talked about contrast when people were still buying CRTs. Fact: 81 can display black hole blacks and true whites. What is important, is that how well 81 or any other display can produce the shades in between those two extremes.

[wiese]

Talking dynamic contrast ratios with LCD LED with LD really doesn't make sense. Contrast ratio on the 81s is completely dynamic.

I disagree.

Static Contrast Ratio is the ratio between the brightest and darkest levels that can be shown on a display at the same time, i.e. using a still image or single frame of video.

Dynamic Contrast Ratio takes the brightest and darkest the display is capable of, which may use different settings and images optimized for the two cases. Otherwise known as marketing BS, since no one is changing the settings on their TV as they watch it.

[DSET]

That JPEG has no EXIF data. Is that a screen grab? If not, what model digital camera was use to take the picture?

yeah i said that in the last page or two
this is a print screen
this is not fair to compare

[wiese]

yeah i said that in the last page or two
this is a print screen
this is not fair to compare

sorry, I missed your post there in the midst of all the OT posts :(

[vtms]

But now here's the rub: I am not an AV techie, so I don't know what to look for or how best to test the display when I see it on Sunday. Is there any advice from the more knowledgeable members as to what I should do? I figure I'll bring a few basic movies with me, like the Star Wars and LOTR trilogies. If there's black crush to be found, Moria should reveal it, and if there are halos to be seen, the many space scenes in Star Wars should bring them out. But how do I test for color fidelity? Should I haul my whole desktop PC over there to hook it up over DVI --> HDMI? That seems a bit much, doesn't it??? How about just a little laptop w/vga? Should that be enough? Any still photos that you think I should use? (Perhaps upload them or send to me via PM, I guess.) Any other movies some scenes from which you think would provide good tests?

I am totally open to suggestions, here.

-David
Well, the main test I'm going to rely on is this. If the picture I'm seeing doesn't inspire reaction such as, "OMFG, I've never experienced this type of picture quality before", perhaps this TV isn't worth its price and I should buy/wait for something else.:)

[vtms]

Talking dynamic contrast ratios with LCD LED with LD really doesn't make sense. Contrast ratio on the 81s is completely dynamic. Not dynamic in the time domain sense either which has been done with prior CCFL panels. Every single unique frame displayed on a LCD LED with LD will be done so with a different contrast ratio. It is almost completely pointless to bring contrast ratio into the discussion. Dynamic contrast ratio discussion with CCFL LCD was already murky. LED LCD with LD just turned contrast ratio comparison into in a huge stinky mess. It is not pretty folks.
You are so right. The only type of contrast ratio number that might make sense, though, with these type of displays is the ANSI CR with something like 16x16 pattern. The static ratio is scene-dependent so it's a total mess, as you said.

What is important, is that how well 81 or any other display can produce the shades in between those two extremes.Absolutely right. Here's my thoughts on this. Imagine you had a pie and the ability to always cut whatever portion of that pie you were given into N slices. If you were given a full pie and cut it into N pieces (current tech) the pieces would be quite thin. But what if you started with a thin slice and still had the ability to cut it into N slices (new tech). How much thinner would these N slices be than the N slices cut from the full pie? Much, much thinner. :)

[mark_1080p]

I disagree.

Static Contrast Ratio is the ratio between the brightest and darkest levels that can be shown on a display at the same time, i.e. using a still image or single frame of video.

Dynamic Contrast Ratio takes the brightest and darkest the display is capable of, which may use different settings and images optimized for the two cases. Otherwise known as marketing BS, since no one is changing the settings on their TV as they watch it.I agree with your disagreement in the static case, and this TV does have a static that we would like to know more about.

Now dynamic is particularly significant for this TV, the setting (backlight intensity) does change automatically as you watch it, both in time and space. It is significant in that you need a very high dynamic CR to have good shadow detail with very dark material. This thing should be able to do it.

So I do not think dynamic CR is necessarily marketing bull, as long as your display has a dynamic dimming setting, like a pj autoiris.

[wiese]

Now dynamic is particularly significant for this TV, the setting (backlight intensity) does change automatically as you watch it

The LD backlight changes according to the picture, but as long as you are comparing the brightest white and blackest black on the screen at the same time that is static contrast, aka real contrast. That is the beauty of LED LD.

The 81s have settings called "brightness" and "contrast", computing the ratio of the brightest white with the settings cranked up to the blackest black with the settings cranked down would be dynamic contrast.

[spincut]

digital inputs like HDMI can tell if there is a cable plugged into them so it would be easy to show only the inputs that have cables attached to them in the settings menus.

this is harder with the analog inputs, if they could detect cables plugged in I would be impressed.

So wait, is this a good thing or a bad thing? I havent really ever wished my inputs would sense cables plugged into them, so i'm not sure if it helps, does it hurt?

[tombaker]

This is the same scene on a dell 2407:

someone took quite a bit of time messing with the setting to create that overly processed picture on the 81. Its like Vivid plus plus plus plus.

Maybe they can just set it to Cinema setting

[vtms]

I think I know how the pictures of this set should be presented from now on. They simply need to be tone-mapped just like this:
http://www.dolby.com/images/promo/hdr/rentalsign_hdr_simulation2.jpg

An owner would have to pause a scene and take 3 pictures at different exposures...
http://www.dolby.com/images/promo/hdr/bracketed2.jpg
...then blend them together in software to get something similar to the picture above that our monitors could actually handle. I believe the result would be a 100-times better representation of what this set might be capable of than what we've seen so far. It would be a great simulation of what an owner might actually see on the screen.

Unfortunately I don't own and know nothing about Photoshop but suspect there might be a feature in that program that could make this happen. If somebody could do this, that would be simply awesome.

[emailists]

Anyone know when Costco will be getting the 81 series?

I figure if I buy it from them I can return it in 6 months with a fake claim since it's basically obsolete already.


..
.
.


geez, can't I inject a little levity into this serious thread?


But really I want to know how it handles standard def?

To me me that is the huge problem with all these sets right now.

"how it's made" is only broadcast in SD and that's all I watch anyway.

[MagikHat]

what is the official release date for the 81?

[OreoJoe]

say again how this will be like CRT's as it relates to glare (and my previous comment on it). or was that more about motion?
The sample-and-hold effect occurs when an image that holds on a display blurs on the retina as the eye tracks the motion from one frame to the next.
This paper explores how the temporal characteristics of image capture
devices and image display devices interact with eye tracking.http://www.poynton.com/PDFs/Motion_portrayal.pdf

The LED backlight pulse shortens the hold time and reduces the blur on the retina. 120Hz is not needed to reduce motion blur for a pulsed LED BL.

[italiano]

Anyone know when Costco will be getting the 81 series?

I figure if I buy it from them I can return it in 6 months with a fake claim since it's basically obsolete already.


..
.
.


geez, can't I inject a little levity into this serious thread?


But really I want to know how it handles standard def?

To me me that is the huge problem with all these sets right now.

"how it's made" is only broadcast in SD and that's all I watch anyway.

Costco changed its policy on returns. It's 90 days now. And I doubt Costco will ever carry these.

[Scot Kight]

Any we thought costco wouldn't ever carry Martin Logan either. You never know where those sneaky bastards get their stuff from. :)

It does seem unlikely though.

[glewin73]

If anyone lives in the Washington D.C. area, the Pentagon Center BB has the 52" 71 and XBR4 sitting right next to each other for comparison. Unfortunately the in-store feed is so awful it makes both of them look like bad DLPs. I will say that even in the bright store environment the gloss on the 71 wasn't as noticible as I thought it would be. I only saw my reflection in the really dark areas of the screen when I actually looked for it. It probably differs from person to person but I could see myself living with it.

I don't expect this BB to get the 81 anytime soon and I'm not making a purchase of any TV until I see it but if I decide to pass on that the XBR4 is going to enter the equation. Even with the terrible feeds going to the TVs I noticed that while the colors looked deeper on the Samsung they also looked flatter while the XBR4 image jumps out at you. I guess it's that 3D effect I saw mentioned earlier. If what I saw was accurate then there's going to be a tough competition between the two.

[Voila1]

I think it is very telling that SONY gets its panels from Samsung and therefore has not invested too much in LCD panel factories. Sony seems to be in the lead with OLED technology and has made the decision as to where Flat panel TVs are going. Unfortunately, OLED panels in large sizes are a few years away.
I know a lot of you out there are in a similar situation as I am. I have a 19 year old large screen CRT that is slowly dying. February 2009 is only a short time away. I would like to update to HDTV with a large panel that does not have any irritating issues that would poke you in the eye every time you look at it.
LEDs for backlights are apparently in short supply. Remember only recently Philips went hard over from producing FBL to LED BL. Dell is currently experiencing delays in shipping laptops with LED BLs. I suspect the 81 series will be in short supply for a while and the price will not come down any too soon.
Therefore, I think the prudent strategy is give up on getting a flat panel for Christmas and wait to next year to see if LED BL technology pans out and the price drops. This way when you want to switch over to OLED in a few years it won't hurt too much.
What do you folks think?

[CadJoe]

So wait, is this a good thing or a bad thing? I havent really ever wished my inputs would sense cables plugged into them, so i'm not sure if it helps, does it hurt?

This is not a NEW feature for Samsung, if you want to call it a feature.

I know the 61 will do this as well.

I personally don't like it, because what if its a weak signal.

Kinda like when you get a channel on a CRT that is weak, then the TV turns the whole screen solid BLUE because its not a good enough signal.

[Haidef]

did you take that pic with a camera or print screen screenshot?
that looks like a screenshot
you cant compare that to a pic of a tv with a digital camera

Yes it's a screenshot. But i wouldn't compare the contrast ratio of the dell (btw it's a 2405, sorry) with the samsung 81! That would be a joke.

I have posted the same scene on another lcd, because "davidjschenk" was wondering about the blue glow on the 81 pic. (post 4063)

But here is a real photo, taken with an old olympus c450:

http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/8323/5thelement2zk0.jpg

[CadJoe]

Guess I should add a third list, WANTS, which would be selling points for me.

KNOW
A) Justscan on Component & HDMI
B) No DVI input. DVI to HDMI cable needed.
C) Firmware updates via USB
D) MP3 player via USB
E) Inputs do NOT exist on menus until cable plugged in.
F) No Learning Remote - need book with codes.
G) Full Power over which source PIP uses.
H)

DUNNO
1) 1080p24 ?
2) True 120hz?
3) 10 bit?
4) Static Ratio ? (and don't say infinite, cause they gave Dynamic a ratio)
5) # of LED zones (X by Y) & qty in each zone for each size.
6) Same glass as 65 or less glossy?
7) Video Processing chipsets ?
8) Image Burn?
9) Power Consumption (Average wattage / hour)
10)


WANT
a) - 80 LED Series without glass (like 61) <--- Most Wanted
b) - PIP pops up on signal (aka, when camera detects motion, PIP pops up)
c) - Built in Caller ID pop-up (Name & #)
d) - Bluetooth Remote
e) - Full Color ZOOMED Pics of inputs on spec sheet
f) -

Lets keep this going...

on WANTS a) I wonder why they kept gloss. Think about it. On the 61 series, the added the gloss to increase the CR and reduce the filtering of light the matte created. But with LED series they don't need to increase CR anymore.

I personally would be happy with 80k:1 on a 80 series non glare LED. Any why didn't they put a 5 on the 71 & 81? A 75 and 85 model makes more sense, cause then we could have an 81 with matte.

[niksem]

FYI: Vanns got TWO T4681F in stock. You have to pay the full retail on that though. I am cancelling one order through amazon so there should be THREE.

[enator]

Yes it's a screenshot. But i wouldn't compare the contrast ratio of the dell (btw it's a 2405, sorry) with the samsung 81! That would be a joke.

I have posted the same scene on another lcd, because "davidjschenk" was wondering about the blue glow on the 81 pic. (post 4063)

But here is a real photo, taken with an old olympus c450:

http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/8323/5thelement2zk0.jpg

Sammy LED and Kuro killer :D :D :D

[____]

Sammy LED and Kuro killer :D :D :D

:eek: Pioneer, Samsung or Dell? :D

[enator]

:eek: Have you decided yet? Pioneer 81 or Samsung Kuro?

Dell is much better than Sammy and Kuro as you see :D

[____]

Dell is much better than Sammy and Kuro as you see :D

Yes yes. Dell looks the flattest=most realistic image. :D:D:D

[enator]

Yes yes. Dell looks the flattest=most realistic image. :D:D:D

And best black I have ever seen :D (Just for people who are judging form a picture) :p

[seagrass]

Dell is much better than Sammy and Kuro as you see :D

Just to help put these pictures in perspective, when the 65 series first came out, I was absolutely floored by the contrast and color when I saw them displayed. IMHO it blew the XBR2 that I owned out of the water. Sowhen I saw it displayed right next to the XBR2 I thought I would take a pic to share with everyone on AVS. Turns out the pics looked nothing like the beautiful screen I was seeing in person. No matter how I tried I couldn't do the set justice. The 46XBR2 looked way better in the pics and no where near as good in person. Not sure why but these screens are just not that easy to photograph.

[____]

Low contrast is easy for camera. 81 should be the hardest display to photograph.

[DSET]

sorry, I missed your post there in the midst of all the OT posts :(

no no man youre taking it wrong i meant like i agree with you i posted that a couple pages back
and for that matter i dont know why everyone is comparing that screen with a picture taken from a camera

now the above picture is proper

[greenland]

If you are looking for an 81 series, in any of the three sizes: Abt Electronics has them in stock and will ship around the country. They are an excellent company. You can read about the 81 series on their website, and also download a pdf of the owner's manuals. Abt Electronics. (make it all one word, and just add .com to the name. This site blocks the actual link.)
If you are interested, you should call and ask for a quote. Sometimes they can quote a better price on products than what they list on their website.

If nothing else, it is a great location for you to obtain a pdf download of the Owner's Manual.

...

[Admiral Ackbar]

Hello,


Some question for those who are more knowledgeable:
1) What is the cause of the glare on the TV? Is it a glass coating or a film on the screen or something?
2) Is the crispness and exceptional color quality due to the same thing that causes the glare?
3) Is there any flat (or matte I think) LCDs on the market that have nearly as good a picture?
4) What is the difference between Contrast ratio and “Dynamic” Contrast Ratio? Someone from Tweeter told me something similar to: “It’s like a dynamic IP address that can change except that in the cast of DCR it can change with the signal. In reality it probably has a “Static” Contrast ratio of like 8,000 to 1” That really didn’t help me too much.
5) Would it be OK to order this TV online or is it better to order it from a brick and mortar store?
6) Someone else told me to look out for something like a “bad pixel ratio” return policy from online merchants. Can anyone explain that a little better?
7) What is the difference between an 8 bit TV and a 10 bit TV.
There seems to be so much confusion about the actual specs on this TV. According to this link (http://www.vanns.com/shop/servlet/item/features/462556160) there is a 120 Hz refresh rate on this TV, but in reality it is using technology to achieve the same results, right?
I know I asked a ton of questions and had a long winded first post but this is really the best place to get the proper answers.

Thanks again!

Drew :)

1. I believe it uses a glass screen instead of a diffusion layer.

2. Somewhat, but TVs with diffusers can look great also, but the gloss seems to add some pop

3. Competitors: Sony XBR4, Sharp D92u, Toshiba 177LX (let me know if I missed any)

4. The guy from tweeter was an idiot. Static Contrast is the contrast ratio the TV can display in one frame. Dynamic is usually (differs via manufacturer) the CR from two frames, ie frame one is all black, frame two is all white.

5. That depends on the store's return policy

6. I would guess what that means some online stores will only take it back (with a full refund because its defective vs. a restocking fee because you didn't like it) if it has some number (maybe 3 or 4 or 5 or higher) of bad pixels

7. I leave that for someone else, while I understand the difference in my head, I haven't had enough coffee to write it down.

[mark_1080p]

The LD backlight changes according to the picture, but as long as you are comparing the brightest white and blackest black on the screen at the same time that is static contrast, aka real contrast. That is the beauty of LED LD.

The 81s have settings called "brightness" and "contrast", computing the ratio of the brightest white with the settings cranked up to the blackest black with the settings cranked down would be dynamic contrast.
Agreed on the first paragraph.

On the second, your statement implies that the difference between static and dynamic is a matter of changing brightness and contrast settings. This is not the case. Maximum static contrast would use a high contrast, low brightness setting. On a non-local dimming set, the increase to dynamic is found by modulating the backlight intensity, as these sets permit huge variations in that intensity via the backlight and E savings settings.

Now for this specific design, we can actually modulate the backlight within the same frame locally, essentially merging the traditional dynamic into the static measurement. Scattering and backlight diffusion will tend to limit the static though, by increasing black level over a totally black screen, and dynamic still should be higher than static (some people here claim infinite but remember the TV gives off thermal and other infrared radiation which could cause minute emission in the far red region of the spectrum).

[LaserEdge]

I disagree.

Static Contrast Ratio is the ratio between the brightest and darkest levels that can be shown on a display at the same time, i.e. using a still image or single frame of video.

Dynamic Contrast Ratio takes the brightest and darkest the display is capable of, which may use different settings and images optimized for the two cases. Otherwise known as marketing BS, since no one is changing the settings on their TV as they watch it.

There is no static contrast ratio when LD (local dimming) is enabled. Every single image will cause the panel to display with a different contrast ratio. If you turn LD off then you start to deal with the static contrast the LCD glass is capable. Dynamic Contrast Ratio as you understand it does not work when LD (local dimming) is enabled. There is a very small set of images where it does apply. Almost all images are going to have the panel operate in a smaller range within what you consider as Dynamic Contrast Ratio.

[LaserEdge]

You are so right. The only type of contrast ratio number that might make sense, though, with these type of displays is the ANSI CR with something like 16x16 pattern. The static ratio is scene-dependent so it's a total mess, as you said.

Absolutely right. Here's my thoughts on this. Imagine you had a pie and the ability to always cut whatever portion of that pie you were given into N slices. If you were given a full pie and cut it into N pieces (current tech) the pieces would be quite thin. But what if you started with a thin slice and still had the ability to cut it into N slices (new tech). How much thinner would these N slices be than the N slices cut from the full pie? Much, much thinner. :)

Totally agree. We are getting to a point where we have to analyze shadow detail in depth to really see if the panels are performing well.

[mark_1080p]

There is no static contrast ratio when LD (local dimming) is enabled. Every single image will cause the panel to display with a different contrast ratio. If you turn LD off then you start to deal with the static contrast the LCD glass is capable. Dynamic Contrast Ratio as you understand it does not work when LD (local dimming) is enabled. There is a very small set of images where it does apply. Almost all images are going to have the panel operate in a smaller range within what you consider as Dynamic Contrast Ratio.Sure there is. Static is measured using a single image or pattern that does not change during the measurement. There are scenes in video that approximate this as well. Even when changing, one could define an appropriate average given the eye's image retention. But there is a static CR definable and measurable with this set. And even with local dimming enabled, dynamic contrast ratio will be higher than static.

[bryanbmur]

I am not sure if anyone has posted this but these are the BestBuy sku# for the 71 and 81 (46")

LN-T4681F - sku# 8458509
LN-T4671F - sku# 8454825

:)

[vtms]

Therefore, I think the prudent strategy is give up on getting a flat panel for Christmas and wait to next year to see if LED BL technology pans out and the price drops. This way when you want to switch over to OLED in a few years it won't hurt too much.
What do you folks think?
This is not a bad strategy, actually. Big improvements in LED BLU technology which will translate to huge improvements in picture quality do not require new technical breakthroughs. It's more a matter of driving down costs of the main components. Next year, there should be much more competition in LED LD LCD arena, which will make this technology both better and more affordable. It's quite possible that next year's most expensive models will start incorporating LED BLUs with 400-1000 dimming zones. (This big improvement wouldn't even involve increasing the number of LEDs in the backlight, but simply replacing the circuits driving these LEDs. It'll be fascinating to observe how the industry reacts to Samsung's newest tech. Next CES should be very interesting. I expect other manufacturers to jump on the LED LD bandwagon quickly.) Once that happens, the difference in picture quality between these new LED LD LCDs and prototype OLEDs will be only marginal. In fact, I would expect an "LLL" with ~1000 dimming zones to look better than OLED. Meanwhile, it seems like OLED technology still requires technical breakthroughs before >40" panels could be mass produced. Most importantly, manufacturing cost of OLEDs is very high compared to the cost of producing LCDs. By the time OLED fixes its technical/manufacturing problems, LED LD LCDs should offer superior picture quality at much lower cost and therefore will probably dominate the consumer market. If that happens, there will be simply no incentive for manufacturers to switch to OLED technology which is why, IMO, OLED will meet the same fate as SED for the exact same reasons.

Recent announcement from Sharp seems to point to a similar conclusion which should be even more apparent after reading this article:
http://techon.nikkeibp.co.jp/english/NEWS_EN/20070823/138161/
Nikkei Electronics: Do you think LCD will prevail over OLED in the market? Or will competition continue?

Katayama: As far as I see this prototype, it excels any other type of display in performances.

[DPowers]

digital inputs like HDMI can tell if there is a cable plugged into them so it would be easy to show only the inputs that have cables attached to them in the settings menus.

this is harder with the analog inputs, if they could detect cables plugged in I would be impressed.


Receivers do it all the time. Analog cables do carry voltage and when the circuit is completed by a component the "active" indication can be made.

[markrubin]

I preordered the LNT 4681 from my local dealer and he is hoping to receive it in 2 weeks

[romebaby]

I am not sure if anyone has posted this but these are the BestBuy sku# for the 71 and 81 (46")

LN-T4681F - sku# 8458509
LN-T4671F - sku# 8454825

:)

Not coming up yet on the site.

[rpgmaster1]

I would really like to see more pics of the 81 in action. We already seen pics of the Sony XBR4 and they're incredibly good. Let's hope that the 81 is a must-have as well.

[HTPC4ME]

I think I know how the pictures of this set should be presented from now on. They simply need to be tone-mapped just like this:
http://www.dolby.com/images/promo/hdr/rentalsign_hdr_simulation2.jpg

An owner would have to pause a scene and take 3 pictures at different exposures...
http://www.dolby.com/images/promo/hdr/bracketed2.jpg
...then blend them together in software to get something similar to the picture above that our monitors could actually handle. I believe the result would be a 100-times better representation of what this set might be capable of than what we've seen so far. It would be a great simulation of what an owner might actually see on the screen.

Unfortunately I don't own and know nothing about Photoshop but suspect there might be a feature in that program that could make this happen. If somebody could do this, that would be simply awesome.

Photoshop CS3 does have a feature like this, but one needs CS3, a prosumer camera with good exposure controls, and a computer with a good amount of processing power.

[pelowell]

I am still extremely puzzled by the fact that Samsung STILL hasn't put these on their site yet. Wudup widat?</