Curious, any idea of the density of LED's on the panel? Surely it's not per-pixel right?
No, there are millions of pixels but probably only a few thousand LEDs. Still, I anticipate an improvement over whole-screen backlights.

Curious, any idea of the density of LED's on the panel? Surely it's not per-pixel right?
Everything I read suggestions region, which kinda makes me wonder a bit. Thanks.
I'm trying to imagine two million LED's and what it would cost let alone fit into a panel. Don't know that such a thing would be possible or affordable. I believe it's the pureness of the white light and it's deployment not how many. :D

I imagine it may be close cousin to the Sony 70" though Samsung may call it something different.

"TRILUMINOS™ LED Backlight
The TRILUMINOS LED backlight is used to create a pure white light by emitting pure red, green and blue light allowing for the creation of a wider spectrum of color (102% of the NTSC color gamut) and produces colors like you see them in the real world."

I'm trying to imagine two million LED's and what it would cost let alone fit into a panel. Don't know that such a thing would be possible or affordable. I believe it's the pureness of the white light and it's deployment not how many. :D[/INDENT]

Before fantasizing let's check the reality. Reality is that the 40" LED BL Sammy panel sold in Europe has 2160 LEDs. These LEDs are arranged in groups of four (2 green+1 red+1 blue) giving 540 groups.

There are outdoor panels composed of discrete LEDs but they are huge. Thinking about 2 milion LED TV is just reinventing the OLED display :D . There is however one critical difference: OLEDs are made of organic materials which makes the technology suitable for making milions of densly packed LEDs (in a process similar to printing).

So if someone could find a way to print inorganic LED we could just have a bare LED panel with <1 msec response time, 1M hour life, 1M:1 CR, etc?

Why not ILED ???

Not sure if there is anything new here:

http://www.i4u.com/article8304.html

^^ Those aren't the LED ones. For some reason, Samsung's 81-series abroad is totally
different. The Korean 81-series seems comparable to the NA 65-series.

So if someone could find a way to print inorganic LED we could just have a bare LED panel with <1 msec response time, 1M hour life, 1M:1 CR, etc? Why not ILED ???

Cost and technology reasons as usual. Even if somebody would create technology to put milions of LEDs on glass panels there would be still a huge problem with light uniformity. LEDs have quite big light output variation and it also depends on temperature and aging. So not only milions of LEDs would have to be put on glass, each would have to be monitored and adjusted individually.

As said before, there are LED displays for huge outdoor applications. They are made of discrete LEDs and cost gazilions.

The only viable LED technology for displays is OLED.

^^ Those aren't the LED ones. For some reason, Samsung's 81-series abroad is totally
different. The Korean 81-series seems comparable to the NA 65-series.

There is also M86 series announced for UK/EU:

http://www.samsung.com/uk/products/television/tftlcd/le40m86bdxxeu.asp?page=Specifications

While in the specs there is no mention of LED BL, the M86 series sets have HDMI 1.3 and 127% normal TV color gamut. This indicates LED BL is actually used. Also, these sets do not have frame
rate upconversion.

Are there any pictures of the sets out yet?

I went and watched the 65 series. Wow, it was nice to see an LCD again without visible defects. It is nice to have a backup monitor if the 81 series is too expensive. I am going to have trouble holding out much longer for the 81... It would be nice if they could at least get something up on the web site soon.

No kidding Mike! I just wish they had something on he 81 or 71-series. It's a pain
to deal with vapourware with no details, no pics, nothing, and have a nice set as
the 65-series sitting in front of you. I kinda expect the 81 to be too expensive for
me (at least, the 52 inch model). Then again, I was looking at the Pioneer FHD1
Plasma (which I have to tell myself each day is not worth $7K+, especially if I fear
image retention).

Hope some stuff on the 81/71's come out in the next couple weeks.

(sigh, seems Firefox keeps failing when I'm editing posts here)

On the New Samsung LCD panel thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=813416&page=23&pp=30) someone posted a link to the German Samsung website describing what would be the closest to the 81s, but with 100Hz (their equivalent to our 120Hz). The price on the 40" was Euro 4299 and apparently that is not even a 1080p set :eek:

Here's the link to the translated link also provided in the thread:
http://translate.google.com/translate?sourceid=navclient&hl=en&u=http%3a%2f%2fav%2esamsung%2ede%2farticle%2easp%3fartid%3d4 9BF0CDB%2d0AB3%2d4FD0%2d85E8%2d911743E9EA78

led backlight will be for next spring for me...

On the New Samsung LCD panel thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=813416&page=23&pp=30) someone posted a link to the German Samsung website describing what would be the closest to the 81s, but with 100Hz (their equivalent to our 120Hz). The price on the 40" was Euro 4299 and apparently that is not even a 1080p set :eek:

Here's the link to the translated link also provided in the thread:
http://translate.google.com/translate?sourceid=navclient&hl=en&u=http%3a%2f%2fav%2esamsung%2ede%2farticle%2easp%3fartid%3d4 9BF0CDB%2d0AB3%2d4FD0%2d85E8%2d911743E9EA78

that's the old LED-BL set that came here out around september last year and yes, it is only 1366x768 and the MSRP of samsung in europe are never a serious indicator of street prices. these sets sell for like € 2500 now which is almost 50% off MSRP.

this sets have nothing to do with the announced 81series

on a side note i have to say that they perform amazing when fed with bluray or HD-DVD. amazing colours and very bright.

that's the old LED-BL set that came here out around september last year and yes, it is only 1366x768 and the MSRP of samsung in europe are never a serious indicator of street prices. these sets sell for like € 2500 now which is almost 50% off MSRP.

this sets have nothing to do with the announced 81series

on a side note i have to say that they perform amazing when fed with bluray or HD-DVD. amazing colours and very bright.

I must have missed the LED BL from last year - what are the model numbers? I'm surprized that I didn't catch any buzz over such sets if they were already in production and in peoples homes.

I must have missed the LED BL from last year - what are the model numbers? I'm surprized that I didn't catch any buzz over such sets if they were already in production and in peoples homes.

they are called the "M91"-series
http://av.samsung.de/article.asp?artid=49BF0CDB-0AB3-4FD0-85E8-911743E9EA78

like said, they can be purchased in almost every electronics-store here and IMO look very nice but they don't offer local dimming

they are called the "M91"-series
http://av.samsung.de/article.asp?artid=49BF0CDB-0AB3-4FD0-85E8-911743E9EA78

like said, they can be purchased in almost every electronics-store here and IMO look very nice but they don't offer local dimming
Now I know why I missed them - I assumed you ment they were out here in the US. Just realized that you're actually in Austria! I don't think we've had any LED BL panels in the US consumer electronics market yet, maybe some commercial? I'm sure you're right that the prices will be lower, but probably not low enough for a lot of people.

KO

I went and watched the 65 series. Wow, it was nice to see an LCD again without visible defects. It is nice to have a backup monitor if the 81 series is too expensive. I am going to have trouble holding out much longer for the 81... It would be nice if they could at least get something up on the web site soon.


Are the 81's worth waiting for over the 61-6's? I was planning on getting a 4066f soon, but Im wondering now if I should hold out?

as much as I love CR and colours, My biggest concern is how smooth my xbox 360 runs and the hockey games I ocassionaly watch are. If the 120hz sets smooth things out, then thats what I must buy. I got so much money buring a giant hole n my pocket right now, and the only thing keeping me from running to the store this minute and buying the 65 or 66f series is knowing that my xbox wont run 100% smooth unless I have 120hz (or so im lead to believe)

Now I know why I missed them - I assumed you ment they were out here in the US. Just realized that you're actually in Austria! I don't think we've had any LED BL panels in the US consumer electronics market yet, maybe some commercial? I'm sure you're right that the prices will be lower, but probably not low enough for a lot of people.

KO

haha, sorry forgot to mention this :D

you're right, AFAIK they're exclusively available in the european market for now. but for sure the 81series will be a global product and has potential to become the best thing out there. if they will perform on colours like the M91 does plus deliver amazing contrastlevels through local dimming i'm having a hard time to imagine any other display(-technology) that will be able to compete with samsung.

For those that are interested the english manual for the european LE-40M91B

http://downloadcenter.samsung.com/content/UM/200610/20061013173148500_BN68-01090E-L03-0825.pdf

Page 5 indicates

Supported modes for DVI or HDMI max out at 1080i therefore this is not a 1080P with a warning at the bottom of the table

- Do not attempt to connect the HDMI/DVI connector to a PC or Laptop Graphics Card.
(This will result in a blank screen being displayed)

Has nothing to do with the US versions to come but a bit wierd.

Does anyone know if the 81 or 71 series will have a dvi pc in or will it still be analog.

Regards

Does anyone know if the 81 series will support 1080p @ 24fps?

So if someone could find a way to print inorganic LED we could just have a bare LED panel with <1 msec response time, 1M hour life, 1M:1 CR, etc?

Why not ILED ???

Actually, people have worked on this for years. The monitor on the Sanyo Xacti HD1 camera/camcorder is OLED. Note that they later introduced the HD1a model which shifted to LCD. From what I have read the OLED disply was gorgeous so I doubt picture quality is why they changed. From what I can gather it was maufacturability and reliability. Now scale those problems up to a large panel. Ouch! Maybe one day the problems will be solved. Sanyo had a joint agreement with another Japanese company on OLED development but the other company backed out. It just isn't ready yet. All of the ocntrast ratio talk is interesting because, in a dark room, an OLED display has theoretically infinite contrast ratio since you shut of the light source.

007 Craft,

I agree 100%...been asking this question on all the NEW Samsung threads to see how the NEW 61 and 65's deal with motion. I cant stand the issues current LCD's have with Games and real hockey/basketball games. Anyone seen the NEW SHARP with 120hz beside the Samsung 61 or 65 series? DOes the 120hz really clean up the Blur???

007 Craft,

I agree 100%...been asking this question on all the NEW Samsung threads to see how the NEW 61 and 65's deal with motion. I cant stand the issues current LCD's have with Games and real hockey/basketball games. Anyone seen the NEW SHARP with 120hz beside the Samsung 61 or 65 series? DOes the 120hz really clean up the Blur???

Well my friend said they got a new panasonic in at work and it was 120hz (first 120hz set the store got). He said he wont let me buy a tv without the 120hz because it was so good. It looks like the 71 series will be the one for me then. I hope july gets here soon enough.

007 Craft,

I agree 100%...been asking this question on all the NEW Samsung threads to see how the NEW 61 and 65's deal with motion. I cant stand the issues current LCD's have with Games and real hockey/basketball games. Anyone seen the NEW SHARP with 120hz beside the Samsung 61 or 65 series? DOes the 120hz really clean up the Blur???

In the owners thread numerous Sharp owners who returned their 120HZ set noticed that the Samsungs are better, or at least equal, the Sharp's in motion. Keep in mind the Sharp 92u series has 120HZ.

Well my friend said they got a new panasonic in at work and it was 120hz (first 120hz set the store got). He said he wont let me buy a tv without the 120hz because it was so good. It looks like the 71 series will be the one for me then. I hope july gets here soon enough.

See my post.

Actually, people have worked on this for years. The monitor on the Sanyo Xacti HD1 camera/camcorder is OLED. Note that they later introduced the HD1a model which shifted to LCD.Yea, but my question was, why not ILED, inorganic LED, i.e., make a panel with miniature versions of current LED (NOT ORGANIC).

Yea, but my question was, why not ILED, inorganic LED, i.e., make a panel with miniature versions of current LED (NOT ORGANIC).
Can't say for sure, but regular "superbright" LED's are a different breed of LED.

Most of the green and "white light" types are made on saphire wafers because of the need to incorporate specific chemicals that emit at those wavelengths. Also your typical LED process while cheap for red, amber and the like is a on silicon process that was derived from transistor manufacturing techniques and it does not lend itself easily to a large substrate.

The reson why organic LED production holds such promise is for the reason of being able to use the printing methods which are cheaper.

Yep, irkuck had similar comments, the cost bugaboo, thanks.

Well, just for the record, one thing is "clear" ...

81 series will be glossy :(.

Yep, irkuck had similar comments, the cost bugaboo, thanks.

Well, just for the record, one thing is "clear" ...

81 series will be glossy :(.

how do you know? What about the 71 series?

how do you know? What about the 71 series?

Check the first page. It's Samsung's Super Clear tech.

More and more I'm leaning away from the 81's here at launch. As a gamer not having 120hz included is rough. But not as rough as being as reflective as a plasma. It's great for people with controlled environments but in that case I'd be considering other tech options along with LCD.

Does anyone know if the 81 series will support 1080p @ 24fps?

The 81 series should be equivalent to the 86 series announced and soon coming to shops in EUrope. It should thus support 24fps as the 86 surely supports it as can be read from translation of the original page in German:

http://www.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fav.samsung.de%2Farticle.asp%3Fartid %3DAD5C6146-C79C-435B-8EE4-A7F473F40969%26show%3Dfeats&langpair=de%7Cen&hl=en&ie=UTF8

The 81 series should be equivalent to the 86 series announced and soon coming to shops in EUrope. It should thus support 24fps as the 86 surely supports it as can be read from translation of the original page in German:

http://www.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fav.samsung.de%2Farticle.asp%3Fartid %3DAD5C6146-C79C-435B-8EE4-A7F473F40969%26show%3Dfeats&langpair=de%7Cen&hl=en&ie=UTF8


I am not so sure that these are equivalent to the 81 series I see no mention of LED/local dimming backlight in the description of the 86 series.

I am not so sure that these are equivalent to the 81 series I see no mention of LED/local dimming backlight in the description of the 86 series.

Right. But they mention extended color gamut (127% normal), 15 000:1 CR HDMI 1.3. Until now this would be LED BL characteristics, maybe they
got it with standard BL :confused:

The 81 series should be equivalent to the 86 series announced and soon coming to shops in EUrope. It should thus support 24fps as the 86 surely supports it as can be read from translation of the original page in German:

http://www.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fav.samsung.de%2Farticle.asp%3Fartid %3DAD5C6146-C79C-435B-8EE4-A7F473F40969%26show%3Dfeats&langpair=de%7Cen&hl=en&ie=UTF8

I'm thinking this is equivalent to the 71 series

I'm thinking this is equivalent to the 71 series
I find this interesting as I preordered the Samsung 1200 BD Player with HQV and it's been reported to do 1080P/24 in the initial reviews by new owners on this forum and matching that to this panel with 1080P/24 and 120Hz would be a picture perfect match it seems although I have to admit it's becoming confusing as hell keeping track of all these codes on a global basis guess.

I saw the 40" 66 series at BB and was quite impressed in a brief viewing. I personally like the glossy screen on this LCD and in comparison all other displays around looked dull next to it including plasmas(BTW I have a controlled environment). In the store lighting blacks were superb. I'm very interested in seeing the new 57" 81 series. I've rarely looked at LCDs specifically because of inadequate black levels but now I'm looking forward to see what the new models bring.

In the store lighting blacks were superb.The glossy Sammy's show store reflections where the blacks are in the image. How you could make such an observation is beyond my capability. Please explain further.

I'm thinking this is equivalent to the 71 series

Yes, i believe the 71 series. Looks like the 71 series will be competing with this.....
http://www.tacp.toshiba.com/televisions/product.asp?model=46lx177

Does anyone know if the 81 series will support 1080p @ 24fps?


It will if its a 120Hz set.....

Sharps are 120 hz without 24 fps support.

I like the idea of 120Hz, but I'm not sure the 71 series will come out in my price range. The 4661/4665 are expensive enough, IMO.

Wish we'd hear some sort of pricing info soon. Not sure how much longer I can hold out after looking at the 61/65 sets.

From Samsung USA:

Series 71 and 81 out by end of April.
Series 71 and 81 and all future large panels GLOSSY.

I feel sick ... :(

From Samsung USA:

Series 71 and 81 out by end of April.
Series 71 and 81 and all future large panels GLOSSY.

I feel sick ... :(

I doubt late april. Its just like last year with the XX95 and XX96's that were due out in June/july and kept being pushed back...

From Samsung USA:

Series 71 and 81 out by end of April.
Series 71 and 81 and all future large panels GLOSSY.

I feel sick ... :(


I am curious, why sick?

From Samsung USA:

Series 71 and 81 out by end of April.
Series 71 and 81 and all future large panels GLOSSY.

I feel sick ... :(

Don't feel sick. True black will arrive soon enough. Did they also release pricing for 81 series?

I am curious, why sick?

Because he hates gloss even though he hasn't tried a glossy lcd in normal viewing situations.

Because he hates gloss even though he hasn't tried a glossy lcd in normal viewing situations.

Actually these new super clear panels should handle daylight better than non glossy versions.

Actually these new super clear panels should handle daylight better than non glossy versions.

That doesn't make any sense at all. The glossy panel reflects light. I hated my plasma reflections; made me not want to watch TV during the day.

Because he hates gloss even though he hasn't tried a glossy lcd in normal viewing situations.I like gloss in paint, pottery, automobiles, brass hardware, glass. Not on a television screen.

I have enough reports to have a very clear idea how the set performs under reduced ambient lighting from experienced owners based on reports and pics. I value reports from others at AVS, its what makes AVS so valuable, I do not have to try everything out myself to understand how something will perform.

That doesn't make any sense at all. The glossy panel reflects light. I hated my plasma reflections; made me not want to watch TV during the day.

http://blog.ultimateavmag.com/ces2007/Samsung%20Super%20Clear.jpg

In daylight super clear will provide better contrast. A bit worse reflections should be downside.

http://blog.ultimateavmag.com/ces2007/Samsung%20Super%20Clear.jpg

In daylight super clear will provide better contrast. A bit worse reflections should be downside.
Is that a monitor you have on the picture with a glossy screen? If so we can see the type of reflections on the lower left which mark doesn't want on his TV set :)

From Samsung USA:

Series 71 and 81 out by end of April.
Series 71 and 81 and all future large panels GLOSSY.

I feel sick ... :(

No offense, dude, but damn do you ever get tired of repeating the same thing over and over? We get it already.

Right. But they mention extended color gamut (127% normal), 15 000:1 CR HDMI 1.3. Until now this would be LED BL characteristics, maybe they
got it with standard BL :confused:


Isn't the 127% they use in reference to the PAL colour gamut and not the NTSC? The NTSC colour gamut is larger than PAL.

No offense, dude, but damn do you ever get tired of repeating the same thing over and over? We get it already.That news I just learned as of today ! If you don't like my reaction to that news, too bad.

That news I just learned as of today ! If you don't like my reaction to that news, too bad.

Will just have to wait and see how the market votes. If glossy sells better you can bet they will all change over. It seems to be very popular in laptops now. You will have to vote with your dollars and buy brands supporting matte finishes.

From Samsung USA:

Series 71 and 81 out by end of April.
Series 71 and 81 and all future large panels GLOSSY.

I feel sick ... :(

Hey thanks for that post Mark!

26 more days....wooohoooo......then my LED BLU dreams will come true....
I'm sooooooooooo desperate for info....you are like GOD send...i don't know why I never thought of calling Samsung for ETA's????

my laptop is 3 years old and has a glossy screen. It was sorta wierd at the time when no other laptop had glossy. Personally I love the colours on it but it is completely unusable outside or on the bus because of the sun.

then again, Im not planing to move my big tv out of my house lol. As long as I close the curtains during the day for tv watching, I think glossy will be just fine.

From Samsung USA:

Series 71 and 81 out by end of April.
Series 71 and 81 and all future large panels GLOSSY.

I feel sick ... :(

woah woah hold your horses there, where does it say that? i thought the official word was July (and most were saying august).

btw i saw the 66f's in the store yesterday (and i imagine the frame and screen gloss will look the same as the 81's) and it didnt look half bad. What i mean to imply is, if you ever were able to enjoy and deal with the glass on a CRT this should be fine (and might i add the reflection deph seemed less than a plasma).

I called Samsung today, CSR and supervisor said this.

Glossy on a small laptop is one thing, on a large panel quite another.
These things are gigantic flat mirrors, can't wait to see the 5771.

This is a major development in LCD evolution, out of the blue here it is.
Hard to believe many people at AVS don't even want to talk about it.

People are even saying that its not a feature, rather a preference, so shut up about it.
It IS a feature, a characteristic of a TV, just like black crush, gamma, gamut, etc.
Seems to be a certain hostility toward dissenters that dislike it.

I thought AVS was a place that one could have a good friendly debate in any thread.

woah woah hold your horses there, where does it say that? i thought the official word was July (and most were saying august).

btw i saw the 66f's in the store yesterday (and i imagine the frame and screen gloss will look the same as the 81's) and it didnt look half bad. What i mean to imply is, if you ever were able to enjoy and deal with the glass on a CRT this should be fine (and might i add the reflection deph seemed less than a plasma).

Probably got misinformation about the date. They'd be morons to release them so close to the release of the 61s and 65s.

I called Samsung today, CSR and supervisor said this.

Glossy on a small laptop is one thing, on a large panel quite another.
These things are gigantic flat mirrors, can't wait to see the 5771.

This is a major development in LCD evolution, out of the blue here it is.
Hard to believe many people at AVS don't even want to talk about it.

People are even saying that its not a feature, rather a preference, so shut up about it.
It IS a feature, a characteristic of a TV, just like black crush, gamma, gamut, etc.
Seems to be a certain hostility toward dissenters that dislike it.

I thought AVS was a place that one could have a good friendly debate in any thread.

a sony csr once told me that they had come out with a method to fix the cloudiness on my tv and that a repair man would be sent to apply it soon.....the rapair person said i was full of crap when i said sony told me that and refused to come out.

and on top of that all the press is saying july or august, so i was really hoping there was somewhere where "samsung USA" had actually said that in writing.

and they are not "big flat mirrors", do you even own one? i was at the store myself and was NOT comparing them to a laptopt monitor, of all things. I was hesitant too as tghey are of course not mat like other LCD's, but they are definetly less of a deph of reflection as a plasma screen.

and they are not "big flat mirrors", do you even own one? i was at the store myself and was NOT comparing them to a laptop monitor, of all things. I was hesitant too as they are of course not matte like other LCD's, but they are definetely less of a depth of reflection as a plasma screen.
You might check Therese's post in the Sammy thread. She is a very reliable person, has a plasma, and stated that they are on par with plasma. Some others have said this as well. That is my observation also.

Asking the question "do you even own one?" implies that I would be better qualified to judge or perhaps that I should shut up because I do not own one. Relative reflectivity is one characteristic that may be effectively judged in the storeroom setting, where side by side comparisons may be made.

If I was fed misinformation, blame Sammy. She specifically said ALL 2007 models will be out by end of April, including those mentioned.

yes i know that, and thusly i have the same basis for comparison "unless you own one", otherwise i had the oppurtunity to compare what the 81's will eventually look like myself, and i'm saying that they appear not as bad as the plasma screens.

some people that have that much of an issue with it may not see the relative level of difference and may feel that a screen like that is simply a screen like that period, but i definetly feel it does not have as deep a reflection as many plasma's, and i saw this with my own eyes side by side as you said.

-and fyi you were then fed info from "sammy csr", not "sammy usa", of which i would note there is a big difference, as i'm sure alot of us here have been given rather untrustworthy info from a csr person, so it's always good to note that as a seperate from a company press release.

Probably got misinformation about the date. They'd be morons to release them so close to the release of the 61s and 65s.

Unless the 71/81s are in a different price market....aka....more expensive...

These aggressive product introductions will allow Sammy to dominate the market faster making Sharp/LG/Toshiba products look farther and farther behind.

If the date that mark's Sammy rep said is true that is....

Ughhh, sorry i just wet my pants thinking about the 81 series again.....

End of April? Seems too good to be true, I'm afraid. I won't believe it until I see it confirmed in Samsung's press release.

Just a note on the "glare" feature of the 65...and supposedly the 71 and 81. I am in the market for a larger set so am watching these current sets. I have owned many LCD's - and own a couple now as well as a couple of PLasma's. The pioneer 1140 I have does a pretty good job with dealing with reflections and glare. Clearly they are still there and my personal opinion is that the current 65 model I saw was somewhat close to the 1140 in that particular respect. (Although not as bad as my Panny 6UY plasma which is a mirror:) in certain conditions)

In no way - do I mean this comment to detract from what I also thought was some of the best PQ to be found in the LCD market today. I was quite impressed with the black levels, shadow detail and color reproduction of the new sammy's - the 65 in particular.

While not having this unit side by side with my Pioneer and obviously not seeing it in "dark room fully light controlled conditions" - I used some test material from my MAC to look at shadow detail and blacks as well as HD DVD (in store using an A1 and blu ray).

I have also owned a couple of sharps (62's) and the Sammy was about the best LCD I have seen to date. In several area's I personally felt it surpassed what my 1140 is capable of - notably HD DVD scenes (Batman etc) and was also very good on SD (Star wars etc). I would actually have given the edge to the SD material to the Pioneer and the HD material to the Sammy. In the non optimized conditions I was able to pretty quickly dial in black levels that both held shadow detail while at the same time held their own in dark scenes/night sky etc.

While I found a few little things that bothered me witht he Sammy - they were few and indeed little. If the new 71/81 series can put out the same PQ (in the larger sizes) these sets will be tough to beat.

Clearly there is a difference in glare and reflectivity between the 61 and 65 series. I preferred the more matte finish of the 61 series, while I prefered the PQ of the 65 series. Maybe the 65 series isn't as refelctive as most plasma's - but it does approach that of the 1140. IMHO - Some folks will prefer the slightly better PQ and "shine" and some will prefer the more matte finish. In either case you will not be a loser as these are VERY nice sets. Hopefully Sammy will put out some of the larger models with the same choices - what a great thing to have that choice!!!!

Therese

i thought the one i saw was a 66f model, so i'm not sure how that fits into it (and i thought it was the only 6x line, like with the 71 and 81's i figured would also be), and wasn't aware that there were other levels to it.

but yeah from what i saw i would definetly beleive that it is close to what would be thought of as the best/better reflective plasma end.

End of April? Seems too good to be true, I'm afraid. I won't believe it until I see it confirmed in Samsung's press release.

Something is telling me that "end of april" is when they'll release details. For such
supposedly wicked TV's, you'd figure they'd be showing it off plenty before releasing
it to the public. Perhaps I'm wrong... and that would be great. :)

We can expect a 46" 81 series to be in the $4500-$5000 range, right? I just bought a 4066f, which I love, but would feel like an ass if the 81's were in my price range.

Y
ou might check Therese's post in the Sammy thread. She is a very reliable person, has a plasma, and stated that they are on par with plasma. Some others have said this as well. That is my observation also.

Asking the question "do you even own one?" implies that I would be better qualified to judge or perhaps that I should shut up because I do not own one. Relative reflectivity is one characteristic that may be effectively judged in the storeroom setting, where side by side comparisons may be made.

If I was fed misinformation, blame Sammy. She specifically said ALL 2007 models will be out by end of April, including those mentioned.
HEY GUYS TAKE IT EASY ON THE MESSENGERS.I am in vancouver bc CANADA.I was told the same thing april for all new lcd tvs from SAMSUNG.This was passed on to me by a samsung rep.

We can expect a 46" 81 series to be in the $4500-$5000 range, right? I just bought a 4066f, which I love, but would feel like an ass if the 81's were in my price range.


I think it's a little too early to feel like an ass. Even if ithe 81's do come out very soon and even though the 61 and 65 series sets seem terrfific, the 81's have a lot of new technology in them. Who knows if they'll be as relatively problem free as the 61's and 65's or if they'll have their own set of problems once we get to see them?

Something is telling me that "end of april" is when they'll release details. For such
supposedly wicked TV's, you'd figure they'd be showing it off plenty before releasing
it to the public. Perhaps I'm wrong... and that would be great. :)

I agree. How can Samsung release these panels in a couple of weeks without having an MSRP? Releasing the full specs and MSRP at the end of April for a July/August release makes more sense.
And speaking of MSRP, i don't see how the 71 series can be that much more than the 65's. The only major diffrence i can see is 120hz, and it seems this feature is not all it's cracked up to be.

Sharp was shipping their 92 series before they appeared on their web site. All that they had out was a line brochure with no MSRPs in it and vague details.

I would love to see that the 81 does 120hz with 24p input 50-100k:1 contrast. The interesting thing is going to be how do they measure the contrast ratio? One would assume they take the brightest possible pixel and compare to the dimmest possible without it being turned off.

Samsung has been in the shadow of Sony and Sharp. Sharp fumbled the ball with the bands produced in their new factory, but it is letting them give intense price competition. Sony likes to be high priced and claim the high end. Samsung appears to be ready to take on Sharp with a working set with the 61/65/66 series at the low end and Sony with the 71 series, and try to top everyone with the 81 series.

I love the battle and want to see the 81 ASAP, even if just posted on the web by the end of the month!

in Canada by the end of this month I'll buy that instead....unless the glare bothers me so much. DARN' it

I can control my light but already live in too much darkness...

am I a troll if I post in this thread? or does spending thousands of dollars only give you privileges such as "freedom to ask questions in an owners thread" only AFTER the money is spent...

if contrast is the #1 thing your eyes are attracted to according to those articles---then 50 or 100k:1 (native?) vs 10k:1 dynamic really tells me it might easily be worth the additional 2x cost even...buyer's remorse...buyer beware. every year leaves last year in the dust, and some are less lucky than others.

if it takes glossyness to achieve 100.000:1 in an LCD then so be it. be da*ned the reflections and operate in basement dungeon blackness. sounds lonely and necromantic doesn't it

Sharp was shipping their 92 series before they appeared on their web site. All that they had out was a line brochure with no MSRPs in it and vague details.

I would love to see that the 81 does 120hz with 24p input 50-100k:1 contrast. The interesting thing is going to be how do they measure the contrast ratio? One would assume they take the brightest possible pixel and compare to the dimmest possible without it being turned off.

Samsung has been in the shadow of Sony and Sharp. Sharp fumbled the ball with the bands produced in their new factory, but it is letting them give intense price competition. Sony likes to be high priced and claim the high end. Samsung appears to be ready to take on Sharp with a working set with the 61/65/66 series at the low end and Sony with the 71 series, and try to top everyone with the 81 series.

I love the battle and want to see the 81 ASAP, even if just posted on the web by the end of the month!

The Toshiba LX177 will do 120HZ and 1080p24. Perhaps the 71 series will do this to justify a premium over the 65 series.

I have read so many people complaining about the glossy screen on the 65 series and then I went and saw it for myself at Magnolia, and BB. I must say I was surprised by the fact that I was really impressed with this TV. I can understand the argument for not wanting the glare, but this is the first LCD where I felt like I was watching a really big flat CRT or what SED might look like. It has that CRT like glow to it. It was the first LCD that seemed to really give plasma a real run for it's money. There is absolutely no question that this added saturation and clarity comes with more glare than a matt screen, but in my world I think the pros out weigh the cons on this one.

Of course it is just one readers opinion.

to anyone saying end of April, how informed did the Samsung rep look like?

Just a PR lackey that doesn't know the difference between a plasma & LCD, or someone that did know what they were talking about?

She said it as if she had said it many times before and it was common knowledge.
She talked to a supervisor.

But they are CSR's ...

to anyone saying end of April, how informed did the Samsung rep look like?

Just a PR lackey that doesn't know the difference between a plasma & LCD, or someone that did know what they were talking about?
what kind of question is that?the same samsung guy told me the 65 and 61,66 would be launched in canada on apr 1st and they were in the store on Apr 2nd.Canada samsung couldn't even give me this info,so i am still sticking to his version till i am proven wrong.

I was wondering what is the logic in releasing the lower end of your 2007 line before the high end. Is this so impatient people buy your cheaper brand? or maybe you are hoping no one will buy your product until they see your full line (like us)? From a sales point of view you would think the best is to get the entire line out as quick as possible, at least release more specs on the high end series including MSRP so we can decide. Here's hoping for a early May release because money burns a hole in my pocket :D.

Regards

I was wondering what is the logic in releasing the lower end of your 2007 line before the high end.

I wonder if they are sorting their panels. It could be that they are testing the panels to see which ones can do 120HZ, and those that fail go into the 61/65/66 line. It is just pure speculation, but chip makers do it all the time, one wonders how uniform the LCD plants really are.

End of April? Seems too good to be true, I'm afraid. I won't believe it until I see it confirmed in Samsung's press release.

Wonder if the rep Mark talked to didn't have a clue and thought he was asking about the 61/65/66s and was like "Yeah, we are releasing new TVs, this month".

The only thing that makes sense about them releasing the 71/81's so close to the 61/65/66s is if the price bracket is substantially higher, other than that I'd be suprised if we saw them in stores before November.

I wonder if they are sorting their panels. It could be that they are testing the panels to see which ones can do 120HZ, and those that fail go into the 61/65/66 line. It is just pure speculation, but chip makers do it all the time, one wonders how uniform the LCD plants really are.

120hz has nothing to do with panels. Most of the people go to store and pick display that looks best on their price range. Manufacturers need massive sales from "low end" displays to pay new manufacturing plants and lines. 81 is a niche product, but important for future and brand. Low end models usually don't have many new features, so manufacturer can launch them first. With competetiton from other manufacturers, holding back ready models will only increase the amount of lost sales.

I called Samsung today, CSR and supervisor said this.

Glossy on a small laptop is one thing, on a large panel quite another.
These things are gigantic flat mirrors, can't wait to see the 5771.

Hard to believe many people at AVS don't even want to talk about it.

People are even saying that its not a feature, rather a preference, so shut up about it.

It IS a feature, a characteristic of a TV, just like black crush, gamma, gamut, etc.
Seems to be a certain hostility toward dissenters that dislike it.

I thought AVS was a place that one could have a good friendly debate in any thread.

For the last time. I'm sorry if you find this even remotely offensive, but I'm just being honest.

1. You are confusing "feature" with "problem," "issue" or "limitation of LCD technology."

A feature is something they intended to include on the TV. The glossy screen is such a thing. Black crush is a problem, and unintended consequence or a limitation of LCD technology. Do you think Sharp technicians sat around thinking, "Wow, we should add a feature to our new LCD line, BANDS!"? No.

2. The glossy screen on my 4665 is the only reason I bought an LCD. In my opinion, it adds the depth and contrast to the picture, bringing some of the benefits of plasma to LCDs. This is the first LCD that I have not had for two days and returned.

3. They make a 4661. They released this model, which has EXTREMELY similar specs, for people like you who do not want glossy screens because they have lots of light sources in their viewing area. Yet, you refuse to acknowledge this fact, and complain about the 4665. Your comments are over in the 4065 4665 5265 owner thread.

4. So the 71 and 81 is not going to come in matte? I'm sorry. There are going to be plenty of nice LCDs coming out from Sony, and maybe Samsung will release a non-glossy counterpart to the 71 and 81 series like they did for the 65 series. It makes sense, they did it this time.

The bottom line is that, at this point, there is nothing to debate. If you don't like glossy screens, get the 4661. Anything regarding the 71 and 81 series is pure speculation and there is no reason to assume that they will not release a matte version as they did with the 65 series.

Samsung does not owe you anything. There are plenty of people out there that like the glossy screen. There are plenty of companies that only make matte LCDs. In fact, they all do, except that Samsung has release ONE GLOSSY MODEL. It's the whining that people are getting sick of--they aren't trying to stifle honest debate. In addition, you are confusing the concept of feature and unintended problems or technological limitations. That may be annoying some people, as it's difficult to debate an opponent who doesn't understand the issues.

From a marketing standpoint what Samsung has done is very wise in expanding the market segment and enabled capturing potential plasma preference folks as they've also done in plasma with the filterbright II on the plasmas. I'm confident they will fill both segments eventually and Sony which is in the same factory they share may certainly stay with their matte or go BI also.

There is a difference with this glossy screen and though I'm not certain I could live with it in my own viewing room with bright sun I found it very unique at the store that when I did direct viewing it had the ability to mask most of it and then when the screen went blank it was like a mirror or at off angles. I must admit it had one of the best panels in the store easily and great blacks and no flaws with out of the box settings. There is only one way I'd live with the "Intermittent" reflections is if delivered the Wow factor and details of HD that matches and SXRD - though I favor LCD I have never seen that fully met yet on an LCD or plasma.

Mark means well but he's been burned with issues on his 52" Samsung and perhaps burning out waiting for his holy grail panel and I think we are sensing that frustration as he usually is a very positive contributor here. My frustration is waiting for the 65" Sharp without banding or the 70" Samsung as I want bigger than my 57" Sharp. Must say the new Samsung looks terrific but with my Sunny Room it would take several visits to decide. Hopefully Samsung has covered both sides of the aisle like a good politician and the leader in CE TV's. My bet is they would not go all gloss unless they gave that up to Sony and everyone else - that's unlikely as they more than anyone else likes as many segments as possible.

Patience is Bitter but it's Fruit is Sweet Mark - hopefully we'll know soon! ;)

For the last time. I'm sorry if you find this even remotely offensive, but I'm just being honest.

1. You are confusing "feature" with "problem," "issue" or "limitation of LCD technology."

A feature is something they intended to include on the TV. The glossy screen is such a thing. Black crush is a problem, and unintended consequence or a limitation of LCD technology. Do you think Sharp technicians sat around thinking, "Wow, we should add a feature to our new LCD line, BANDS!"? No.

2. The glossy screen on my 4665 is the only reason I bought an LCD. In my opinion, it adds the depth and contrast to the picture, bringing some of the benefits of plasma to LCDs. This is the first LCD that I have not had for two days and returned.

3. They make a 4661. They released this model, which has EXTREMELY similar specs, for people like you who do not want glossy screens because they have lots of light sources in their viewing area. Yet, you refuse to acknowledge this fact, and complain about the 4665. Your comments are over in the 4065 4665 5265 owner thread.

4. So the 71 and 81 is not going to come in matte? I'm sorry. There are going to be plenty of nice LCDs coming out from Sony, and maybe Samsung will release a non-glossy counterpart to the 71 and 81 series like they did for the 65 series. It makes sense, they did it this time.

The bottom line is that, at this point, there is nothing to debate. If you don't like glossy screens, get the 4661. Anything regarding the 71 and 81 series is pure speculation and there is no reason to assume that they will not release a matte version as they did with the 65 series.

Samsung does not owe you anything. There are plenty of people out there that like the glossy screen. There are plenty of companies that only make matte LCDs. In fact, they all do, except that Samsung has release ONE GLOSSY MODEL. It's the whining that people are getting sick of--they aren't trying to stifle honest debate. In addition, you are confusing the concept of feature and unintended problems or technological limitations. That may be annoying some people, as it's difficult to debate an opponent who doesn't understand the issues.

I think we should congratulate mark1080p for his thoughts on glossy screens because if it were not for his post we would not have found out that the 4661f and the 4665f share the same panel!

Also he did provide us with end of april as the arrival date for the 71/81 series, whether this is true or not is beside the point....he is a true contributor to the AVS forums, a date is a date.....afterall this is a anticipation/speculation thread on the 71/81 series....

From a marketing standpoint what Samsung has done is very wise in expanding the market segment and enabled capturing potential plasma preference folks as they've also done in plasma with the filterbright II on the plasmas.

I agree that it was smart to offer the glossy and the matte in the 46" size, but I question the smarts behind choosing glossy over matte in the 52" size. I want a quality LCD larger than 46" and my room is severely bright. I've got lots of good quality 50" and up plasma options, most at prices below a comparable size LCD price, but I can't find an LCD that I'm happy with at that size. The Samsung seems to have the edge right now in non-banded/clouded superior PQ for large LCD's, and I think they gave away some of that advantage by moving closer to the competitive plasma market segment instead of offering the large LCD with the matte surface where they'd be relatively "king of the hill." The anti-reflection of a matte surface is seen by many as an important advantage of LCD over plasma. If the 61 matte was offered in 52", I'd probably own one now.

I think we should congratulate mark1080p for his thoughts on glossy screens because if it were not for his post we would not have found out that the 4661f and the 4665f share the same panel!


Actually that congrats would go out to taphil and I for taking shots of our 4665f and 4661f sets respectively in the owners thread with the backs off.

Actually that congrats would go out to taphil and I for taking shots of our 4665f and 4661f sets respectively in the owners thread with the backs off.

I've said it once and i'll say it again,

YOU GUYS RULE bpmurr and taphil,
for stripping your sammy babes of their bathing suits
and letting us see all of that metallic, PCB, LCD sex under there,
My heros!

but we gotta give mark abit of credit for bitching about the gloss/matte thing too....
I'm such a whore for this LCD porn.....
I think i will go wet my pants again by staring at your naked 4661f.....drool ... :p

I think i will go wet my pants again by staring at your naked 4661f.....drool ... :p

Just a little too much info there, dogmandoo. :eek:

Wow. I see you've got a lot of experience with regard to adding things to the discussion.

...

Anyways.

If the the 4661 and the 4665 are the same panels, where does the extra 5,000 contrast ration come from? Is it just the screen? Is there a more sophisticated video processor? Has anyone looked at this issue?

1. You are confusing "feature" with "problem," "issue" or "limitation of LCD technology." A feature is something they intended to include on the TV. The glossy screen is such a thing. Black crush is a problem, and unintended consequence or a limitation of LCD technology. Do you think Sharp technicians sat around thinking, "Wow, we should add a feature to our new LCD line, BANDS!"? No.

No confusion here. Sometimes features are also problems. Samsungs have in the past crushed blacks because they were designed a certain way, the gamma clips at low IRE to give the set the appearance of more contrast. My 800:1 Sharps do not crush blacks despite the lower CR. So that was a design decision which resulted in a problem.

3. They make a 4661. They released this model, which has EXTREMELY similar specs, for people like you who do not want glossy screens because they have lots of light sources in their viewing area. Yet, you refuse to acknowledge this fact, and complain about the 4665. Your comments are over in the 4065 4665 5265 owner thread.

They announced a 5261 at CES. They did not bring it to market. I need a 52, they did not deliver. I have been waiting for a defect-free 52 for 2 years, now this omission, hence the frustration. There is no choice at 52", there is nothing out there. I like the 4661, I have stated I liked it in posts. I may have to get that, but it is too small.

4. So the 71 and 81 is not going to come in matte? I'm sorry. There are going to be plenty of nice LCDs coming out from Sony, and maybe Samsung will release a non-glossy counterpart to the 71 and 81 series like they did for the 65 series. It makes sense, they did it this time.

According to Samsung, all future large LCD will be glossy. There are no models scheduled for this year that are matte at 52", none. Sharp is hopeless, Sony is probably not an option for me (I have not faith in their quality), maybe Mitsubishi will come through.

The bottom line is that, at this point, there is nothing to debate. If you don't like glossy screens, get the 4661. Anything regarding the 71 and 81 series is pure speculation and there is no reason to assume that they will not release a matte version as they did with the 65 series.

The debate is on the emergence of reflective LCD screens, a very significant step in the evolution of flat panels. There is everything to debate.

Samsung does not owe you anything. There are plenty of people out there that like the glossy screen. There are plenty of companies that only make matte LCDs. In fact, they all do, except that Samsung has release ONE GLOSSY MODEL. It's the whining that people are getting sick of--they aren't trying to stifle honest debate. In addition, you are confusing the concept of feature and unintended problems or technological limitations. That may be annoying some people, as it's difficult to debate an opponent who doesn't understand the issues.
See above for comments in bold.

Yes, when I first heard of the glossy debacle, I was whining and complaining. But lately I have been discussing differences in the sets and just for even bringing up the subject people get indignant. That is not whining or complaining. If some find it difficult to debate, that becomes annoying, so that justifies some of the responses I have read? If that is the reason, would not it be better to attempt to educate or inform rather than insult?

... burning out waiting for his holy grail panel ... Burned out :) :) :).

I agree that it was smart to offer the glossy and the matte in the 46" size, but I question the smarts behind choosing glossy over matte in the 52" size. I want a quality LCD larger than 46" and my room is severely bright. I've got lots of good quality 50" and up plasma options, most at prices below a comparable size LCD price, but I can't find an LCD that I'm happy with at that size. The Samsung seems to have the edge right now in non-banded/clouded superior PQ for large LCD's, and I think they gave away some of that advantage by moving closer to the competitive plasma market segment instead of offering the large LCD with the matte surface where they'd be relatively "king of the hill." The anti-reflection of a matte surface is seen by many as an important advantage of LCD over plasma. If the 61 matte was offered in 52", I'd probably own one now.Absolutely right, and it (5261) was announced at CES. BTW, viewing the 4661 again today next to the Sharps, the matte effect on the 4661 is amazing. Compared to the 4661, even the Sharp d62 matte LCD looks glossy, amazing matte, great for well-lit room if 46" is the right size. Absorbs light like a sponge.

I have read so many people complaining about the glossy screen on the 65 series and then I went and saw it for myself at Magnolia, and BB. I must say I was surprised by the fact that I was really impressed with this TV. I can understand the argument for not wanting the glare, but this is the first LCD where I felt like I was watching a really big flat CRT or what SED might look like. It has that CRT like glow to it. It was the first LCD that seemed to really give plasma a real run for it's money. There is absolutely no question that this added saturation and clarity comes with more glare than a matt screen, but in my world I think the pros out weigh the cons on this one.

Of course it is just one readers opinion.

I agree with your statement 100%. I was one of the first to report the "super glare panel" to you all, and since, I have visited local BrandsMart many times to view the 65 series. At first, the fact an LCD screen displays glare is a little shocking, but as you begin to focus on the picture rather than the glare, it is quiet obvious the Super Clear Panel is a remarkable innovation.

Glare aside, the improvement to picture clarity and saturation mentioned earlier can't be ignored and should be commended. If there currently existed a way to economically increase contrast, saturation, clarity and reduce glare, most plasma and LCD manufacturers would implement such technologies.

We did not dismiss Sony or Proton TV's due to glare when we purchased CRTs years ago. There brilliant colors and picture quality garner accolades even today. Let's give Samsung and the SCP a try on our own turf before we pass judgement- one thing is to see it in a showroom, the other your home. As I said earlier, we need more owner testimonials to make informed decisions.

One thing is certain; everyone that sees the 65 series agrees the image quality is remarkable. That alone may be worth a little glare!

Called Samsung again just now.

1. No 71, 81 series until July.

2. 71 series will have new reflective coating.
Reflection will be LESS than 65 series, not matte though.

They are working on reducing reflection but keeping glossy coating !!

I agree that it was smart to offer the glossy and the matte in the 46" size, but I question the smarts behind choosing glossy over matte in the 52" size. I want a quality LCD larger than 46" and my room is severely bright. I've got lots of good quality 50" and up plasma options, most at prices below a comparable size LCD price, but I can't find an LCD that I'm happy with at that size. The Samsung seems to have the edge right now in non-banded/clouded superior PQ for large LCD's, and I think they gave away some of that advantage by moving closer to the competitive plasma market segment instead of offering the large LCD with the matte surface where they'd be relatively "king of the hill." The anti-reflection of a matte surface is seen by many as an important advantage of LCD over plasma. If the 61 matte was offered in 52", I'd probably own one now.

Whether we like it or not, THIS YEAR, the break between volume purchases for LCD TVs and premium sizes is at 50", according to market data I saw recently (perhaps on here, I don't remember). 40-49" was volume, 50"+ was lower volume, premium SKUs.

So what does this mean? If you look at Samsung's numbering and positioning, the 61 series may be similar tech base to the 65 series, but they charge less for it and the glossy screen on the 65 is meant to provide a visual enhancement when used in the right situations. So, matte is mainstream, higher volume, lower cost option, while glossy is used in premium models. Hence, no 52" (or larger) matte versions because, from a marketing standpoint, it's considered in the premium category by it's size.

Of course, this is all speculation on my part, but just offering a possible explanation for what we are seeing from Samsung, even if we don't like the fact that there is no 5261F SKU anymore.

Called Samsung again just now.

1. No 71, 81 series until July.

2. 71 series will have new reflective coating.
Reflection will be LESS than 65 series, not matte though.

They are working on reducing reflection but keeping glossy coating !!

Bummer - was hoping that 81 series in April rumour was going to live a little longer. I can wait till July to purchase, but would sure like to get some more details on price point and such on these TVs to determine whether they are worth me waiting.

As one who went from several Microdisplays to a plasma I have never really considered an LCD due to inadequate black levels. I read up on CES info but didn't look at all at LCD info. I now have a Panny plasma and I much prefer the 3D look of a plasma over a microdisplay or an LCD.

However, I saw a 40" 66 series Samsung at BB the other day and was quite impressed. Black levels in the light looked very good. Though it wasn't next to the Panny I'd have to say black levels in light were MUCH better. The picture was quite bright (typical of LCD). And quite honestly all the other LCDs around looked flat next to it including the Samsung plasma.

These new LCDs have me intrigued and I will definitely be anticipating the release of the 81 series the most. I have controlled lighting so reflections are not an issue but I would have to think that due to the brightness of these LCDs alone that they would be able to overcome reflections more than any plasma out there right now.

So, matte is mainstream, higher volume, lower cost option, while glossy is used in premium models. Hence, no 52" (or larger) matte versions because, from a marketing standpoint, it's considered in the premium category by it's size.Sammy CSR did indicate entire line (71, 81) will be glossy but I did not specifically ask on the sizing. We shall see.

Called Samsung again just now.

1. No 71, 81 series until July.

2. 71 series will have new reflective coating.
Reflection will be LESS than 65 series, not matte though.

They are working on reducing reflection but keeping glossy coating !!

well they did indeed change their story now, but even considering inconsistencies i'd be wondering more about this further reduced glare treatment and if there's anything to that.

and also why the 71's but not the 81's as well.

I read that Samsung will be introducing a 61" LED later this year. I wonder if it is part of the 81 Series or will this be a new series????

I read that Samsung will be introducing a 61" LED later this year. I wonder if it is part of the 81 Series or will this be a new series????
No, The only 61" LED from Samsung is the new DLP RPTV.

They will be releasing a 70" though but the final specs are unclear since it was announced last August but has not debuted yet. Instead Sony's 70" from the same shared plant has taken center stage at $33k MSRP and where is the owners thread on that one?. ;)

I suspect it may debut with the 81's but probably only through top level retailors as did their 57" last year with it's size, weight and price tag which is unknown for now. I'm seriously interested in this 70" myself. :)

No, The only 61" LED from Samsung is the new DLP RPTV.

They will be releasing a 70" though but the final specs are unclear since it was announced last August but has not debuted yet. Instead Sony's 70" from the same shared plant has taken center stage at $33k MSRP and where is the owners thread on that one?. ;)

I suspect it may debut with the 81's but probably only through top level retailors as did their 57" last year with it's size, weight and price tag which is unknown for now. I'm seriously interested in this 70" myself. :)
Thank you Westa for your response.

well they did indeed change their story now, but even considering inconsistencies i'd be wondering more about this further reduced glare treatment and if there's anything to that.

and also why the 71's but not the 81's as well.Yea, antireflection treatment for all glossies, according to this CSR, who did seem knowledgable, more so than the previous that stated April release for all (she did speak to her super though, so I thought that would have helped). The CSR who said July had a sheet full of release dates and he said it had been updated within a day or 2 of when I called.

Yea, antireflection treatment for all glossies, according to this CSR, who did seem knowledgable, more so than the previous that stated April release for all (she did speak to her super though, so I thought that would have helped). The CSR who said July had a sheet full of release dates and he said it had been updated within a day or 2 of when I called.

yes i know you just said that, i'm wondering though what else about the antireflective stuff, especially if they havent used it already in their current sets to the degree they plan to (and like i said, this guy having a different release date may not necesarily mean what he says is any mored reliable than the last about that or lesser reflections on the newer TV's).

Yea, reminds me of the gunky roller banding theory, but wait, all the gunk was cleaned off and the Sharp banding has been fixed ... :D. Gunk ... more like Bunk.

Sorry if this was asked already but since about 90% of my channels are non HD how is the picture quality on these Samsung sets for NON HD content.

Sorry if this was asked already but since about 90% of my channels are non HD how is the picture quality on these Samsung sets for NON HD content.
No none would be able to tell you since these sets are not out yet - this is the anticipation thread. There is an owners manual for the new 61/65/66 series here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=820218

They will be releasing a 70" though but the final specs are unclear since it was announced last August but has not debuted yet. Instead Sony's 70" from the same shared plant has taken center stage at $33k MSRP and where is the owners thread on that one?. ;)

I'm seriously interested in this 70" myself. :)

There is no owner thread since the official release time is in May:p.

There could be YAAT (Yet Another Anticipation Thread) on the 70" Sony LCD but how many people are anticipating it with 33 grands ready to splurge? You are the one, where are the others?:D

There is no owner thread since the official release time is in May:p.

There could be YAAT (Yet Another Anticipation Thread) on the 70" Sony LCD but how many people are anticipating it with 33 grands ready to splurge? You are the one, where are the others?:D
That 70" Sony has been carrying that Pre-order status for two months and all they've done is change the date further into the future each month.

No way you'll see me fork over that kind of money - my limit is about $8K on a TV having gotten my 57" for $6.5K six months ago.

Is the samsung 70" supposed to be in the 81 series? I find it strange that it's supposed to be "released" in 1H 2007 which gives it about 2.5 months at this point and we have yet to see anyting about it anywhere except the same show picture. Not even a product model #. I'm really beginning to wonder if they will actually release it or perhaps push it back another year.

(I am really hoping they release it on time/schedule as I am really looking at picking it up if it's under $15k).

I just by chance came across indirectly a PR announcement that the new Samsung Sony Partnered 8thgen LCD Plant will be finished a month early than planned. The problem or challenge is in identifying which panels are the 8th gen models? :)

Here's the link:

http://www.twice.com/article/CA6432287.html

I just by chance came across indirectly a PR announcement that the new Samsung Sony Partnered 8thgen LCD Plant will be finished a month early than planned. The problem or challenge is in identifying which panels are the 8th gen models? :)

Here's the link:

http://www.twice.com/article/CA6432287.html


I just hope that they can produce quality panels in the new plant and come up with a new problem like Sharp did with the banding issues from their 8th generation plant.

It would seem christmas time for delivery of an 81 series by samsung at best :(


- rex

It would seem christmas time for delivery of an 81 series by samsung at best :(


- rex

The Samsung 81 series should be coming out this July. I highly doubt they'll wait until Christmas to release it! The compeition (Sony, Pioneer) will release their new tvs this summer, so Samsung must as well! :confused:

The article at twice.com above speaks of august start date for the 8th gen plant with a holiday receive date. Are the 81's being mfc'd in the 7 gen plant ?? I thought the 81's were starting in the 8th gen.. it wouldn't be the first time i was wrong :)


- Rex

Somebody has reported that the 81 series (and perhaps the 71 also) won't be out until October, just in time for the holiday season.

Ugh... so many inconsistent dates in this thread!

I went to Best Buy today to look at the 65 series w/the new glossy reflective screen. I just don't see the point. If you go to a movie theatre, the screen has a matte finish. Presumably you want the home experience to resemble the movie experience. The matte finish does not reflect light. It makes no sense to me why Samsung is intoducing this "innovation".

Obviously to make more money. It is now very hard to disinguish and compare Plasma and LCD sets. Maybe that was the idea - to confuse the consumer and make it easier for sales people to sell sets w/the highest margins.

Are any of the 65 series available in matte screen? The 71/81 series. If not I might be tempted to get the Sharp.

Are any of the 65 series available in matte screen? The 71/81 series. If not I might be tempted to get the Sharp.

The 61 is matte, go read the sharp threads before buying, people complain about banding a lot more than refections.

The 61 is matte, go read the sharp threads before buying, people complain about banding a lot more than refections.

Right - I used to spend a lot of time on that thread. The banding on those sets is awful. One has to hope Samsung will release an 81 series panel in matte. The 4661 appears to have specs that are not as good as the 4665, ie. 10k vs 15k contrast ratio so its not a real choice. The 4661 is simply a 4696 w/out clouding issues from what I can see.

Actually I think the consensus over there is that the 4661 is the same as the 4665 but without reflections. It's the glossy screen that accounts for the spec difference. The actual LCD panel seems to be the same.

It would seem christmas time for delivery of an 81 series by samsung at best :(


- rex

people keep popping and making up their own delays, why chrismas now at best? what has happened since the July announcement posted here that has indicated any delay yet? i mean so far it seems slated for july/august and while people say they "heard somewhere" about something no one is really posting where they heard it from.

Actually I think the consensus over there is that the 4661 is the same as the 4665 but without reflections. It's the glossy screen that accounts for the spec difference. The actual LCD panel seems to be the same.

I took the back off of my 4661 and it's the same panel as the 4665. Just a slight model number difference to reflect the matte finish instead of glossy. Remember this Dymanic Contrast ratio is some number that somebody pulls out of the air.

By chance, are you using Comcast Pace box?
Cannot control it with my Sammy remote.

That 70" Sony has been carrying that Pre-order status for two months and all they've done is change the date further into the future each month.

No way you'll see me fork over that kind of money - my limit is about $8K on a TV having gotten my 57" for $6.5K six months ago.

Hi westa6969,

Our limits are about the same - if it is really breakthrough technology I may go
a couple grand more...

I think I have now narrowed down my selection between a large Samsung 81 series or the 60 inch Pioneer "super plasma"...

I went to Best Buy today to look at the 65 series w/the new glossy reflective screen. I just don't see the point. If you go to a movie theatre, the screen has a matte finish. Presumably you want the home experience to resemble the movie experience. The matte finish does not reflect light. It makes no sense to me why Samsung is intoducing this "innovation".


Because some people don't like the look of the matte finish on a typical LCD screen when you shine a light on it with its diffusing effect. Personally, it pulls me out of the viewing experience and reminds me that i am looking at a piece of plastic. Many of us are accustomed to looking at CRTs or Plasmas with their glossy window-pane like look. It all comes down to what you are accustomed to. the glossy finish on the 65 series has a second benefit in that it better preserves the apparent blacks in the presence of ambient light. Yesterday I saw a 4665 and 4661 side-by-side at a Best Buy with typical bright store lighting. They looked identical for 90% of the material in their demo loop, but the blacks did look deeper on dark shots and blackout scenes with the 4665 due to the glossy coating. The bottom line is that Samsung has introduced this innovation because some consumers want it. If you don't, then vote with your wallet.

The 4661 is basically the same TV, other than the speaker placement and glossy screen. The quoted contrast ratio difference is due to performance in ambient light; you probably won't see any difference at all in a dark room.

people keep popping and making up their own delays, why chrismas now at best? what has happened since the July announcement posted here that has indicated any delay yet? i mean so far it seems slated for july/august and while people say they "heard somewhere" about something no one is really posting where they heard it from.


Spin,

I was referencing the above post "...post above at twice.com...". It specifically states august start for mfc. I then asked if the '81 series are being made in that plant or the 7th gen???


And where in this thread was any **real and confirmed by samsung** realease date mentioned. We are all speculating on the given info.

I hope its sooner rather than later too :)

-rex

I just by chance came across indirectly a PR announcement that the new Samsung Sony Partnered 8thgen LCD Plant will be finished a month early than planned. The problem or challenge is in identifying which panels are the 8th gen models? :)

Here's the link:

http://www.twice.com/article/CA6432287.html

Usually the new plants produce panels with completely different specs and driving electronics, so they're new models. I don't think there would be any difficulty identifying 8th gen panels - they're all new models.

The quoted contrast ratio difference is due to performance in ambient light; you probably won't see any difference at all in a dark room.
The quoted contrast ratios must be dark room, they are far too high for ambient lit situations. The difference has to be the panel/coating itself.

From PC Magazine:

"PC Magazine reviewers noted an odd quirk with the SuperBlu; the player supports only the 24-Hz and 30-Hz frequencies of the 1080p format, not the most common 60-Hz signaling.This means that the player is incompatible with TVs from Sony, Sharp, Samsung, Panasonic -- and even LG, whose upcoming 2007 TV lineup will support the 24- and 30-Hz frequencies, but whose current lineup does not".

From PC Magazine:

"PC Magazine reviewers noted an odd quirk with the SuperBlu; the player supports only the 24-Hz and 30-Hz frequencies of the 1080p format, not the most common 60-Hz signaling.This means that the player is incompatible with TVs from Sony, Sharp, Samsung, Panasonic -- and even LG, whose upcoming 2007 TV lineup will support the 24- and 30-Hz frequencies, but whose current lineup does not".


What does this mean for the 65 series?

Do we have any idea what the price might be? HDTVs in general are coming down in price and getting to be better featured displays.

I hope the alleged July launch date is still on as well.

Gonna add to the rumor mill here guys. My friends just came back from work at futureshop (sells tvs) and noticed a tech spec sheet left by samsung which mentioned samsungs LED TV. Now my friend is not as obsesed with the tvs like I am so he didnt get a model number or the full details down. He did call me tho to let me know that it was deffenitly the LED LCD tv from samsung (so it must be the 81 series). He also said that he was told its coming within 2-4 weeks.

Im going to be phoning him tomorrow at work and asking him to read me the model number and specs in detail. So the 81 series in april/may is still alive.

Scan the spec sheet and post it here! :D

Gonna add to the rumor mill here guys. My friends just came back from work at futureshop (sells tvs) and noticed a tech spec sheet left by samsung which mentioned samsungs LED TV. Now my friend is not as obsesed with the tvs like I am so he didnt get a model number or the full details down. He did call me tho to let me know that it was deffenitly the LED LCD tv from samsung (so it must be the 81 series). He also said that he was told its coming within 2-4 weeks.

Im going to be phoning him tomorrow at work and asking him to read me the model number and specs in detail. So the 81 series in april/may is still alive.

well you should really tell him to take a closer look at that, since i dont think 2-4 weeks sounds possible at all. Heck, i was pretty sure the july/august spec was the one official thing we had heard, and with still not much info on all the models and whatnot i find it doubtful it's coming earlier than that.

I think I have now narrowed down my selection between a large Samsung 81 series or the 60 inch Pioneer "super plasma"...

I'm in the same boat as you Tony. I'll have to see for myself if the Sammy or the Pio have the best picture quality. I have to say that the new Sony's are also in my thoughts...but I don't know how they will compare to the sammy or pio in terms of black levels. Can someone tell me if the Sonys can compete with them? thanks! :)

The quoted contrast ratios must be dark room, they are far too high for ambient lit situations. The difference has to be the panel/coating itself.

I understand the science of how contrast is measured Mark, and I am not insinuating that they are actually producing a 15000:1 ansi in the presence of ambient light, rather I am saying that I believe the 61 and 65 panels are identical other than the reflective coating and that the 15000:1 is a completely BS number from the marketing department to indicate that it is a better TV than the 61 for product differentiation purposes.

well you should really tell him to take a closer look at that, since i dont think 2-4 weeks sounds possible at all. Heck, i was pretty sure the july/august spec was the one official thing we had heard, and with still not much info on all the models and whatnot i find it doubtful it's coming earlier than that.

Samsung must be shooting for the 1,2 punch!

Gonna add to the rumor mill here guys. My friends just came back from work at futureshop (sells tvs) and noticed a tech spec sheet left by samsung which mentioned samsungs LED TV. Now my friend is not as obsesed with the tvs like I am so he didnt get a model number or the full details down. He did call me tho to let me know that it was deffenitly the LED LCD tv from samsung (so it must be the 81 series). He also said that he was told its coming within 2-4 weeks.

Im going to be phoning him tomorrow at work and asking him to read me the model number and specs in detail. So the 81 series in april/may is still alive.


Were you able to get any more details on this? On the edge of my seat here hoping for some new info on the 81 series.

Were you able to get any more details on this? On the edge of my seat here hoping for some new info on the 81 series.

Wow, this is incredible because we (Canadians) usually get the good stuff after the States! But if FutureShop(Owned by BB) has it on there spec sheet and we add in some delays to the timeline, it might just be here by May/June!

I'm waiting for the 81, and if the black crush is there (hope not), I'll just buy a 24 inch widescreen monitor and...wait longer

reason I say this is that I checked out the 61 and 65 last week and it looked major black crushed. honestly, the sharps looked much better with the same material...heck, an lg plasma for under a grand looked much better.

Too many panels, too many defects, causing too many problems...and not much love to around.

I've been reading this entire thread, and what the hell is Black Crush???

I was hoping to get the 65 series!!!

Were you able to get any more details on this? On the edge of my seat here hoping for some new info on the 81 series.

I think what is really happening is the announcement is coming the first week in May during the "Expo" in NYC. The 81 series is still on line for August.

sti jag:

the hdtvtest.co.uk review in the other thread explains the reasons well. so even if the absolute black levels on the 61s/65s are the best out there, that's no real prize it seems to be:

"Looked promising, but a closer inspection revealed a deeper problem. Check out the following graph describing the displayed gamma at each percentage stimulus:

gamma-log

What this means is that the Samsung LE40M86BD has skewed gamma tracking: as the input signal level decreases, the image becomes darker than it should be (if you don't understand gamma, all you need to know is that the higher the gamma, the darker the picture); and at the other end as the signal level increases, the image becomes brighter than it should be.

As you can imagine this will have a negative impact on the picture, causing loss of both shadow detail (also known unofficially as "black crush" that – strictly speaking – should be reserved for description of inability to pass below-black data) and highlights (aka "near-white detail"). Ideally the gamma tracking should be as flat as possible throughout the whole stimulus range so that each input signal level generate the proportionate gamma-adjusted brightness intensity. For comparison, here are some examples of recent LCD TVs that do this well (and consequently preserve shadow detail):"

-----

in other words...to see any detail in dark scenes / areas of an image you need to pump up the gamma level to compensate, making the default black level irrelevent as it's unusable. if I were to buy the set, I'd have to run it very bright gamma, ruining the contrast in the process...kind of a waste of money, considering I could buy a cheap CR panel to achieve the same result. CR and absolute black levels paired with skewed gamma scale at the lower end of the spectrum that ruins black details is a catch-22 no-win situation:

i.e it *appears* to be a fundamental flaw of the set (that site is the most pro review site I've read, very scientific and thourough)

although if someone can properly pump up the curves manually using their computer inputs as processing stage, then I might still be interested. but...why would I buy such a set just to make myself frustrated like mark_1080p? I'm anal about these things too, considering I've already waited ten years to get an hdtv, I can wait another month or two.

But...go check out the sets yourself. also, the glare wouldn't even be the tiniest bit of an issue next to the black crush issue. I live/play in the darkness/blackness listening to techno and programming all the time, and though I hate glare with a passion, I think black crush is waaaaaay worse. I mean, at future shop I was thinking to myself...am I supposed to want to buy this? sorry, the answer is no.

The 4661 is basically the same TV, other than the speaker placement and glossy screen. The quoted contrast ratio difference is due to performance in ambient light; you probably won't see any difference at all in a dark room.

I understand the science of how contrast is measured Mark, and I am not insinuating that they are actually producing a 15000:1 ansi in the presence of ambient light, rather I am saying that I believe the 61 and 65 panels are identical other than the reflective coating and that the 15000:1 is a completely BS number from the marketing department to indicate that it is a better TV than the 61 for product differentiation purposes.
You said the difference was due to ambient light. If that be true, than it must follow that you imply the CR includes ambient. Also, it is possible that the 15,000:1 is not BS, that you actually do get a different result in a dark room, but that the difference is due to scattering of light from inside the panel, not ambient.

Pleas explain further if I misinterpret your statements, my apologies if I have done so.

sti jag:

the hdtvtest.co.uk review in the other thread explains the reasons well. so even if the absolute black levels on the 61s/65s are the best out there, that's no real prize it seems to be:

"Looked promising, but a closer inspection revealed a deeper problem. Check out the following graph describing the displayed gamma at each percentage stimulus:

gamma-log

What this means is that the Samsung LE40M86BD has skewed gamma tracking: as the input signal level decreases, the image becomes darker than it should be (if you don't understand gamma, all you need to know is that the higher the gamma, the darker the picture); and at the other end as the signal level increases, the image becomes brighter than it should be.

As you can imagine this will have a negative impact on the picture, causing loss of both shadow detail (also known unofficially as "black crush" that – strictly speaking – should be reserved for description of inability to pass below-black data) and highlights (aka "near-white detail"). Ideally the gamma tracking should be as flat as possible throughout the whole stimulus range so that each input signal level generate the proportionate gamma-adjusted brightness intensity. For comparison, here are some examples of recent LCD TVs that do this well (and consequently preserve shadow detail):"

-----

in other words...to see any detail in dark scenes / areas of an image you need to pump up the gamma level to compensate, making the default black level irrelevent as it's unusable. if I were to buy the set, I'd have to run it very bright gamma, ruining the contrast in the process...kind of a waste of money, considering I could buy a cheap CR panel to achieve the same result. CR and absolute black levels paired with skewed gamma scale at the lower end of the spectrum that ruins black details is a catch-22 no-win situation:

i.e it *appears* to be a fundamental flaw of the set (that site is the most pro review site I've read, very scientific and thourough)

although if someone can properly pump up the curves manually using their computer inputs as processing stage, then I might still be interested. but...why would I buy such a set just to make myself frustrated like mark_1080p? I'm anal about these things too, considering I've already waited ten years to get an hdtv, I can wait another month or two.

But...go check out the sets yourself. also, the glare wouldn't even be the tiniest bit of an issue next to the black crush issue. I live/play in the darkness/blackness listening to techno and programming all the time, and though I hate glare with a passion, I think black crush is waaaaaay worse. I mean, at future shop I was thinking to myself...am I supposed to want to buy this? sorry, the answer is no.

Thank you. I have been harping on this issue ever since i saw these in person about the black crush and how Samsung screwed up the calibration process not being in sync. Mark and i have been getting hammered by people complaining that we keep mentioning the same thing over and over. Especially me because i'm a non owner so i must be a Sharp plant or belong to al Quada.

Were you able to get any more details on this? On the edge of my seat here hoping for some new info on the 81 series.

sorry guys, I had a school project to do and it completely slipped my mind. Ill see If I can remember tomorrow, and hopefully hes working.

sorry guys, I had a school project to do and it completely slipped my mind. Ill see If I can remember tomorrow, and hopefully hes working.

please pretty please!
we are all counting on you....

Thanks

I think what is really happening is the announcement is coming the first week in May during the "Expo" in NYC. The 81 series is still on line for August.
The new Samsung/Sony plant was completed very early due to better weather than anticipated and so they may make it to market sooner if in fact the 81 is being produced at the new shared plant they've just finished. Considering the 57" Samsung reaches it's first anniversary at the end of June it's update should be at about the same time also.

One can hope to see if the LED can deliver on wider color gamut and blacks without crush - an SXRD level of shadow details in an LCD Flat panel would be my goal. ;)

Should be an exciting next 6 months between the 81 series, Sony's newest offerings and the Pio Super Plasma and if it can deliver it's blacks without crush as we already know Pio has the best of class processing but can it deliver on shadow details and is their definition of new anti-glare fact or fiction. Sometimes CES is a bitch - all the anticipation and waiting that runs 6-12 months.

Despite the new criticisms of the Samsungs I feel they are a step forward when I've viewed them they's been at the top three panels in the store but never to a point where I would pull my wallet out and buy it since it's hard to WoW you with a 46" when your already viewing a 57"- the panel is very good and an advancement in many respects but with still more to go which I suspect the 71/81 will address otherwise why bother? Samsung simply creates another tier and profit margin many will pay for those added features to take LCD to the next level (we can hope). Interesting how silent Sony has been on their next gen XBR's and I hardly think they are sitting still and will let itself be leapfrogged by it's competition and rely on Branding alone, but of course one will pay a price to go there but they best not be cloudy! ;)

Hey Lipcrkr? I believe you were at the LA HT CE Show in June 2006. What happened? Did it not do well or is it simply rotating to NY? All the hype and I see nothing for this year and that NY show has historically had it's focus in Audio with low turnout in TV Manufacturers unless new announcements are planned. Why no repeat of the LA Show from last year where Sony used as a platform?

reason I say this is that I checked out the 61 and 65 last week and it looked major black crushed. honestly, the sharps looked much better with the same material...heck, an lg plasma for under a grand looked much better.

The 61/65 series has an amazing range of adjustibility. Blacks definitely get crushed with the (as usual, ******) Samsung defaults but a bit of tweaking and the sets can have a great, snappy well-balanced image.

please pretty please!
we are all counting on you....

Thanks

hmm, turns out hes not working until thursday. But whats a little more wait anyway? If the tvs do indeed come in july, we are in for a long wait,.

Thank you. I have been harping on this issue ever since i saw these in person about the black crush and how Samsung screwed up the calibration process not being in sync. Mark and i have been getting hammered by people complaining that we keep mentioning the same thing over and over. Especially me because i'm a non owner so i must be a Sharp plant or belong to al Quada. am in the same camp also

a.k.a. Mudslinger :D

Is there any other TV's with HDMI 1.3 except 65 series which I own.

I keep losing signal with my PS3 over HDMI.

Do the 71 and 81 have a big difference or is there any news about them yet?

I heard the PS3 has alot of problems with HDCP on many Tvs. Best solution is to sell your ps3 while you can and buy a stand alone blu-ray player. If your into the ps3 for gaming, its time to see what that 360 everyone is talking about really does :)

You said the difference was due to ambient light.

Pleas explain further if I misinterpret your statements, my apologies if I have done so.

You are right, I was inconsistent in my terminology. I don't want to belabor the point as this thread is about the 81s anyway.

I heard the PS3 has alot of problems with HDCP on many Tvs. Best solution is to sell your ps3 while you can and buy a stand alone blu-ray player. If your into the ps3 for gaming, its time to see what that 360 everyone is talking about really does :)

The 360 has no franchises when it comes to games, they only have Halo which is respected and Gears of war.

There wont be no winner until five years pass. PS3 is suppose to last 10yrs while 360 5yrs.

Well back to HDTV world I keep hearing the 71, 81 will come out:
April/may-I don't believe
July
August

I just want an HDTV with HDMI 1.3.

The new Samsung/Sony plant was completed very early due to better weather than anticipated and so they may make it to market sooner if in fact the 81 is being produced at the new shared plant they've just finished. Considering the 57" Samsung reaches it's first anniversary at the end of June it's update should be at about the same time also.

One can hope to see if the LED can deliver on wider color gamut and blacks without crush - an SXRD level of shadow details in an LCD Flat panel would be my goal. ;)

Should be an exciting next 6 months between the 81 series, Sony's newest offerings and the Pio Super Plasma and if it can deliver it's blacks without crush as we already know Pio has the best of class processing but can it deliver on shadow details and is their definition of new anti-glare fact or fiction. Sometimes CES is a bitch - all the anticipation and waiting that runs 6-12 months.

Despite the new criticisms of the Samsungs I feel they are a step forward when I've viewed them they's been at the top three panels in the store but never to a point where I would pull my wallet out and buy it since it's hard to WoW you with a 46" when your already viewing a 57"- the panel is very good and an advancement in many respects but with still more to go which I suspect the 71/81 will address otherwise why bother? Samsung simply creates another tier and profit margin many will pay for those added features to take LCD to the next level (we can hope). Interesting how silent Sony has been on their next gen XBR's and I hardly think they are sitting still and will let itself be leapfrogged by it's competition and rely on Branding alone, but of course one will pay a price to go there but they best not be cloudy! ;)

Hey Lipcrkr? I believe you were at the LA HT CE Show in June 2006. What happened? Did it not do well or is it simply rotating to NY? All the hype and I see nothing for this year and that NY show has historically had it's focus in Audio with low turnout in TV Manufacturers unless new announcements are planned. Why no repeat of the LA Show from last year where Sony used as a platform?

Yeah, i'd be going to the show if it was here in LA. What i heard was the show did great but contractually it had to go back to NYC. But last years show only had Sony and HP as far as video, i think Sony is off the radar this year because their new models are similar to last years. Last year they introduced the A2000, XBR2 SXRD, and the new LCD panels. I'm waiting to hear more about the Toshiba LX177 and the Sammy 71 series. If only the Sammy 5265 didn't crush blacks i'd be all set, but you're right, the shadow detail on the SXRD is tops. I just can't stand SSE though on RPTV's.

I must be the odd man out... I have my PS3 hooked up HDMI to a Marantz SR9600 receiver (for uncompressed L-PCM audio), which is in turn hooked up HDMI->DVI/HDCP on my 4+ year-old Sony KF-60XBR800, and the PS3 has been utterly reliable. No HDCP negotiation issues or black screen flashes or anything like that...

Looking to replace the Sony with a 57" LCD, which I would hope would have a more reliable HDCP implementation than a first generation model! :-)

hmm, turns out hes not working until thursday. But whats a little more wait anyway? If the tvs do indeed come in july, we are in for a long wait,.
REad this!

http://www.about-electronics.eu/200...lcd-production/

For those that are too lazy, here is an excerpt

S-LCD, the joint venture of Samsung and Sony, plan to begin production of their eighth-generation (8G) TFT LCD plant 2-3 months earlier than planned, according to the Korean-language Digital Times.

Reuters also recently reported that Sharp will push up the schedule for its second-phase expansion plan for its 8G plant, but the exact time frame is still unavailable.

In July, Samsung and Sony said they plan to invest approximately US$1.9 billion (with each company providing half) to establish an 8G LCD plant, with production to start in October 2007 with a monthly capacity of 50,000 glass substrates. Production is now expected to begin far sooner.

Sharp’s 8G plant started volume production earlier in August this year and the company said at that time it planned to launch a second-stage expansion in March 2007, with monthly capacity to double to 30,000 substrates.

The plants of both S-LCD and Sharp will focus mainly on 40 and 50-inch TV panels.

The later generation a factory is, the bigger glass it can handle. And the bigger glass it can handle, the more individual screens it can cut, reducing unit costs.

In the second quarter of 2006, Sharp and Sony ranked second and fourth in the global LCD TV market, according to research firm Display Search.


So mabey they will come out in may since they were originally supposed to come out in fall.....beginning production 3 months early would make that may or june!

Woo hoo...crossing fingers for the revolution....

I must be the odd man out... I have my PS3 hooked up HDMI to a Marantz SR9600 receiver (for uncompressed L-PCM audio), which is in turn hooked up HDMI->DVI/HDCP on my 4+ year-old Sony KF-60XBR800, and the PS3 has been utterly reliable. No HDCP negotiation issues or black screen flashes or anything like that...

Looking to replace the Sony with a 57" LCD, which I would hope would have a more reliable HDCP implementation than a first generation model! :-)
You need to compare apples to apples. Neither your TV or your AVR has HDMI 1.3 in the chain. Break the sequence in the chain and you are at the previous HDMI level as it's a legacy product that is backwards compatible. Though your PS3 may be 1.3 capable it is not sending 1.3 features to the TV or thru the AVR as it cannot - the features cannot step beyond the capabilities of the receiving products which are certainly not 1.3. It's got nothing to do with the TV it's the flaky sensitivity of the HDMI. I receive perfect transmissions in both HDMI and Component on my 57" and only issues I've ever had are a more advanced product that had not been matured yet like the HD DVD and it's HDMI implementation until they made firmware upgrades available which then corrected those issues but it was not the TV that was at fault it was the HD DVD product that had not yet been matured or refined. The glory of being an early adopter glorious when it works but a PITA when the product hasn't matured but it's not the fault of the TV that's displaying it often - they get the blame as the display device but it's usually the product that is reaching to a next level that hasn't matured and early adopters are the guinea pigs. ;)

@dogmandoo

Can you re-post the link? The forum seems to have automatically abbreviated it so it doesn't work correctly (it redirects you to the main page instead).

... but it's usually the product that is reaching to a next level that hasn't matured and early adopters are the guinea pigs. ;)
Bingo. But, they do provide a valuable service. Hats off to the little piggies.

@dogmandoo

Can you re-post the link? The forum seems to have automatically abbreviated it so it doesn't work correctly (it redirects you to the main page instead).


Let's see if this works:
http://www.about-electronics.eu/2006/09/21/samsung-sony-and-sharp-speed-up-lcd-production/

Thanks! Now it works!

Hey, I am thinking about buying a Toshiba 34HFX84 tv (yeah, i know it is not a Samsung, but i am in college), my question is does anyone know if Refurbished Electronics.com is a good site to purchase a product from,?? anyone know of anyone having experience from them??

Any pictures (other than the ones on the first post) of the new Samsung 81 Series? I would really like to see some pictures of the black levels on the LCDs. Thanks :)

Since these sets have not even been officially announced by Samsung yet info on them is scarce and the only pictures are from what they previewed at CES.

Were you able to get any more details on this? On the edge of my seat here hoping for some new info on the 81 series.

Sorry, My friends a dumbass. I followed up on it today and he just missed the DL part of the LCD tv he read before. So baiscally it was just a spec sheet for upcoming DLP. Nothing to get excited about. Sorry for getting anyones hopes up.

R81 LCD tvs have been selling in Hong Kong for the past week.
I Just purchased the 37 inch today.
Although I do not have anything to benchmark against, please feel free to ask me any questions if i can help~

D'oh!!!

R81 LCD tvs have been selling in Hong Kong for the past week.
I Just purchased the 37 inch today.
Although I do not have anything to benchmark against, please feel free to ask me any questions if i can help~

Pictures of your set and spec would be greatly appreciated. ;)

Great, now i'm going to be checking this thread obsessively all day.

Details, specs, pics, please!!:)

[edit] the high specs mentioned on the 1st page of the thread may be limited to the high resolution versions. I only purchased the 37 inch version

in case i make a total fool of myself in the scenario it really is not a R81...

I can't post website links, but check Samsung's Hong Kong site. It mentions about the new R series and has a picture there.

Currently, there are 6 models 32, 37, 40 inch (1360 x 768)
40, 46, 52 inch (1920 x 1080)

It comes with 3 HDMI, contrast is 8000:1.

Am I talking on the right channel here? If so, I'll take photos

Any pictures (other than the ones on the first post) of the new Samsung 81 Series? I would really like to see some pictures of the black levels on the LCDs. Thanks :)

Unfortunately judigng from the M86 series in Europe it seems that black levels problem are being exchanged by shadow detail/gamma problem. It seems also that blacks might be improved at the cost of screen glare. Read this:

http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/Samsung-LE40M86BD/Picture-Quality.php

Unfortunately judigng from the M86 series in Europe it seems that black levels problem are being exchanged by shadow detail/gamma problem. It seems also that blacks might be improved at the cost of screen glare. Read this:

http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/Samsung-LE40M86BD/Picture-Quality.php

Don't judge the black level performace on this Samsung tv. This one doesnt use local dimming LEDs. The contrast ratio is 15,000:1 dynamic, which is nothing compared to the 100,000:1 dynamic contrast ratio on the 81 series. LED technology should prevent any shadow detail/gamma problems from occuring, but of course its not guaranteed...we will have to see for ourselves. I'm really hoping that the new LED technology can compete with the new Pioneer "super" plasmas that are coming out soon. I prefer LCDs over plasmas, but I hope that with the new LED BLU, the Samsungs will be the best LCDs and the best flat panels. Time will tell.

Unfortunately judigng from the M86 series in Europe it seems that black levels problem are being exchanged by shadow detail/gamma problem. It seems also that blacks might be improved at the cost of screen glare.

What M86 series has to do with 81 series? M86 uses normal backlight. 81 series uses intelligent led backlight and doesn't have to crush blacks to get good black level. Equivalent for 81 series in Europe would be M9* series.

I'm really hoping that the new LED technology can compete with the new Pioneer "super" plasmas that are coming out soon. I prefer LCDs over plasmas, but I hope that with the new LED BLU, the Samsungs will be the best LCDs and the best flat panels. Time will tell.

Calibrated led lcds deliver the best, most accurate colors. Local dimming will make 81 series on/off contrast, ansi contrast and black level king. No plasma can compete with this soon to be available plasma killer.

Calibrated led lcds deliver the best, most accurate colors. Local dimming will make 81 series on/off contrast, ansi contrast and black level king. No plasma can compete with this soon to be available plasma killer.

This post sounds comforting. I really hope your statement is true. Thanks xvYCC! :D

In regard to performance, the 81 series may or may not kill the super plasma; and, if it does, at what price point? I am certainly curious about this.

Given the many noted LCD issues such as banding, cloud, flashlight, some motion blur (still there despite improvement), crushed black, and viewing angle, I'm starting to consider plasma panels again. Let's what the latest offerings from Panasonic and Pioneer can do. Of course, I do realize plasma panels have their share of short-comings such as burn-in (again, some improvement but still there).

The next issue, and a big one at that, is the price-to-value/performance/QC ratio. While I have no problem spending $4k on a panel, I certainly wouldn't want to throw that at something that has too many initial quality/performance issues. :eek:

I'll keep my fingers crossed. :cool:

In regard to performance, the 81 series may or may not kill the super plasma; and, if it does, at what price point? I am certainly curious about this.

Given the many noted LCD issues such as banding, cloud, flashlight, some motion blur (still there despite improvement), crushed black, and viewing angle, I'm starting to consider plasma panels again. Let's what the latest offerings from Panasonic and Pioneer can do. Of course, I do realize plasma panels have their share of short-comings such as burn-in (again, some improvement but still there).

The next issue, and a big one at that, is the price-to-value/performance/QC ratio. While I have no problem spending $4k on a panel, I certainly wouldn't want to throw that at something that has too many initial quality/performance issues. :eek:

I'll keep my fingers crossed. :cool:

Price? It's still a samsung, expect conventional backlight xbr prices. All those issues except viewing angle can be fixed with led backlighting. Panasonic doesn't have anything really new for the next 8 months.

Price? It's still a samsung, expect conventional backlight xbr prices. All those issues except viewing angle can be fixed with led backlighting. Panasonic doesn't have anything really new for the next 8 months.

From your mouth (or keyboard) to Samsung's HQ. I hope. :D

Another "feature" I would like to see with the 81 series from Samsung is a calibrated picture right out of the box. With the ability to dynamically dim parts of the screen, they should be able to have a perfect gray scale right out of the box.

One has to wonder if someone put out a perfectly calibrated picture out of the box if people would think the set was dull and lifeless on store shelves compared to all the other sets.

R81 LCD tvs have been selling in Hong Kong for the past week.
I Just purchased the 37 inch today.
Although I do not have anything to benchmark against, please feel free to ask me any questions if i can help~

the specs list this as a CCFL back light???

I don't think this Asian R81 series is the same as the forthcoming LN-Txx81F LED backlit series

Price? It's still a samsung, expect conventional backlight xbr prices. All those issues except viewing angle can be fixed with led backlighting. Panasonic doesn't have anything really new for the next 8 months.

They don't?
http://www.plasmacity.com/PLASMA_DISPLAYS/PANASONIC/50PZ700U.htm

They don't?


No. That display was available from Pioneer a year ago.

They don't?
http://www.plasmacity.com/PLASMA_DISPLAYS/PANASONIC/50PZ700U.htm

In fact, the new PZ700's are extremely similar to their 65 inch 1080P model from 2006,
just in 42, 50, and 58 inch sizes. I believe they mainly upped the processing and made
the cabinets look nicer.

Check it out: (Last year's model on left... the compare option screwed up and put
the picture of last year's model on the right, but the specs on the left)

Click here (http://www2.panasonic.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/vModelComparisonResults?storeId=15001&catalogId=13401&catGroupId=24973&cacheProgram=11002&cachePartner=7000000000000005702&surfCategory=Plasma%20TVs&items=98487|112102|112101|)

Calibrated led lcds deliver the best, most accurate colors. Local dimming will make 81 series on/off contrast, ansi contrast and black level king. No plasma can compete with this soon to be available plasma killer.

I would love your prophecy come true but only real life will show.

Big Q is if LD (Local Dimming) does not introduce its own range of artefacts noticeable to critical observers.

It also looks that recent panels with boosted CR and BLevel sacrifice SD (Shadow Detail).

BTW, an early model of Samsung with LED BL available in Europe does not excel in color accuracy either.

One can speculate that the problem with color accuracy/purity in LCD might be due to the color leakage, In plasma each color cell emits its own color independently. In LCD cell filters filter colors from multicolor backlight source which leads to leakage of all backlight colors through the filters. LED backlight has better defined colors than CCFL and thus it should be better but the color leakage remains. Potential reduction of color leakage could be a STROBING LED BL. In such system LEDs of red green and blue colors would by strobed sequentially for say 2 ms, so they would never be on at the same time. During one strobing cycle, e.g. red, LCD cells of other colors (green and blue in this case) would be turned off, thus maximally attenuating the leakage.

Potential reduction of color leakage could be a STROBING LED BL.

Ok, well is Samsung going to implement strobing LED BLU in order to prevent color leakage? If your statement is right about this, then I would hope they do implement it because it would be a shame if they don't.

It also looks that recent panels with boosted CR and BLevel sacrifice SD (Shadow Detail).BTW, an early model of Samsung with LED BL available in Europe does not excel in color accuracy either. In plasma each color cell emits its own color independently. In LCD cell filters filter colors from multicolor backlight source which leads to leakage of all backlight colors through the filters. LED backlight has better defined colors than CCFL and thus it should be better but the color leakage remains. Potential reduction of color leakage could be a STROBING LED BL. In such system LEDs of red green and blue colors would by strobed sequentially for say 2 ms, so they would never be on at the same time. During one strobing cycle, e.g. red, LCD cells of other colors (green and blue in this case) would be turned off, thus maximally attenuating the leakage.

What recent panels have to do with samsung 81 series? Calibrated led lcds have very accurate colors(>99% perfect). Manufacturer has to choose correct leds, though. Plasma colors are a joke and will always be only an approximation of correct color.

They don't?
http://www.plasmacity.com/PLASMA_DISPLAYS/PANASONIC/50PZ700U.htm Know anything about the 50PZ77U and the difference - Migrated from the Sammy xx61,65 site?

Know anything about the 50PZ77U and the difference - Migrated from the Sammy xx61,65 site?

Th PZ series is 1080p, the 77u series is 720p. There is no PZ77u, it's PZ700u.
I'm still looking at 52" LCD's but my favorite has always been plasma. Best PQ of all the technologies. Since i'm using it as an HTPC i was just afraid of burn in.

I'm still looking at 52" LCD's but my favorite has always been plasma. Best PQ of all the technologies.

Well your opinion might change (mine already has) when the Samsung 81 series comes out. I'm confident it will have the best PQ out of all the technologies...even the new "super" plasmas from Pioneer won't beat it. ;)

Well your opinion might change (mine already has) when the Samsung 81 series comes out. I'm confident it will have the best PQ out of all the technologies...even the new "super" plasmas from Pioneer won't beat it. ;)

LCD's are like my former G/F, very sensitive. If you breath on it too heavily it will have a nervous breakdown. Plasmas are a different breed, you set it and forget it.
By the way, have you seen an 81 series in person? That seems like a bold statement.

Hilarious how you guys are claiming the 81 series Samsungs are going to kill the new Pioneer plasmas when I seriously doubt you've seen either TVs. Both sets sound promising and I'm very interested in seeing both but any comments now from people who haven't seen either of these TVs in action are merely hearsay.

LCD's are like my former G/F, very sensitive. If you breath on it too heavily it will have a nervous breakdown. Plasmas are a different breed, you set it and forget it.

Then why are people doing plasma break in first when they buy a plasma display? After that you have to watch for image burn and retention. Forgetting constant image on a plasma display will kill it. LCD can handle constant images, different aspect rations, network logos, games etc and will never show image burn or retention.

Then why are people doing plasma break in first when they buy a plasma display? After that you have to watch for image burn and retention. Forgetting constant image on a plasma display will kill it. LCD can handle constant images, different aspect rations, network logos, games etc and will never show image burn or retention.

^^ Good point xvYCC. Even though IR on plasmas has been improved, it still can happen rather easily if one is not careful.

Anyway, I'm not saying that the Samsung 81 series will be better than the Pioneer "super" plasmas. I'm saying that I hope that they are better because I prefer LCDs in general. The whites are rather dirty on plasmas and the picture is just not as vivid as the LCDs. Not to mention that I'm a gamer and IR will cause problems.

The new LED BLU technology as well as other technology that will be implemented on the new Samsungs should essentially fix all the current problems on LCDs (gray blacks, motion blur, less than stellar colors) and that combination would make the ideal flat panel HDTV in my opinion. The only thing I don't know yet is if the Samsungs will support 24fps for reducing judder in movies. I'm sure the new Pioneers will look great as well, but the way I see it the Samsungs will have better colors (and whites) and possibly similar or even better black levels and shadow detail than the Pios. Also keep in mind the Samsungs will have less power consumption and less glare.

Overall, both new technologies will be great, but I'm leaning more towards the Samsung 81 series. I'll just have to wait and see the new hdtvs for myself and make the final decision of which one to purchase. Ok, enough talk I'm off to bed! :p ;)

Then why are people doing plasma break in first when they buy a plasma display? After that you have to watch for image burn and retention. Forgetting constant image on a plasma display will kill it. LCD can handle constant images, different aspect rations, network logos, games etc and will never show image burn or retention.

There are many people in the plasma forum who have never done a break in and everything is fine. Speaking specifically of Panasonic, in which i have never seen IR, the reality is burn in is a non issue. I used to be paranoid but to me Panasonic has phospors that seem to age evenly right from the start. When i say set it and forget it once you calibrate your settings on a specific source those settings will stick, on many LCD's, especially the Samsung 65 series, you have to continuously calibrate to get rid of the pillars and light leaks and do so without washing out the picture. If you don't believe me go to the Sammy 61/65 series thread and read the hundreds of posts of people trying to dial in a decent picture. As far as LCD and IR, if you truly believe LCD's cannot get IR i dare you to leave a task bar, game menu, or DVD menu on the screen for a couple of hours. Do this at you own risk, that's my disclaimer. The fact is plasma doesn't need a response time for moving images, they don't need no stinkin' backlight, they can be seen in all it's glory off to the side, and plasmas have something LCD's are still trying to achieve....deep black with shadow detail.
As far as PQ, nothing, i mean nothing, comes close to a calibrated Panny, Pioneer, or NEC plasma in a home theater enviroment.

There are many people in the plasma forum who have never done a break in and everything is fine. Speaking specifically of Panasonic, in which i have never seen IR, the reality is burn in is a non issue. I used to be paranoid but to me Panasonic has phospors that seem to age evenly right from the start. When i say set it and forget it once you calibrate your settings on a specific source those settings will stick, on many LCD's, especially the Samsung 65 series, you have to continuously calibrate to get rid of the pillars and light leaks and do so without washing out the picture. If you don't believe me go to the Sammy 61/65 series thread and read the hundreds of posts of people trying to dial in a decent picture. As far as LCD and IR, if you truly believe LCD's cannot get IR i dare you to leave a task bar, game menu, or DVD menu on the screen for a couple of hours. Do this at you own risk, that's my disclaimer. The fact is plasma doesn't need a response time for moving images, they don't need no stinkin' backlight, they can be seen in all it's glory off to the side, and plasmas have something LCD's are still trying to achieve....deep black with shadow detail.
As far as PQ, nothing, i mean nothing, comes close to a calibrated Panny, Pioneer, or NEC plasma in a home theater enviroment.

I smell a plasma fanboy :rolleyes: Again what samsung 61/65 has to do with 81 series? Do you know what display calibration is? I can leave constant image on any of my lcd displays for weeks and there won't be IR. This is something that plasma can't do. Plasma has slow response time compared to crt display and panasonic plasma will show false contouring because of this issue(doesn't have time to pulse correct colors). Sony LCD has better shadow detail and black level than a Pioneer plasma. Read the test here:Sony VS Pioneer test (http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/Sony-LCD-vs-Pioneer-Plasma/Picture-Quality.php) If a traditional LCD display has better picture than current Pioneer plasma, properly implemented led lcd will totally crush plasma displays. Dream display of 2007 would be Sony LED XBR.

I smell a plasma fanboy :rolleyes: Again what samsung 61/65 has to do with 81 series? Do you know what display calibration is? I can leave constant image on any of my lcd displays for weeks and there won't be IR. This is something that plasma can't do. Plasma has slow response time compared to crt display and panasonic plasma will show false contouring because of this issue(doesn't have time to pulse correct colors). Sony LCD has better shadow detail and black level than a Pioneer plasma. Read the test here:Sony VS Pioneer test (http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/Sony-LCD-vs-Pioneer-Plasma/Picture-Quality.php) If a traditional LCD display has better picture than current Pioneer plasma, properly implemented led lcd will totally crush plasma displays. Dream display of 2007 would be Sony LED XBR.

AGREED!
For those of us that've been here a few years see one another as we follow the next best thing, but my take is I'm the Anti-Plasma Fanboy having been an owner of one of those Panny Mirrors. :mad:

Lip loves to follow what MAY be the next best thing but some of these statements against LCD are just assinine unless one owns a POS Polaroid or RCA from several years back. To speculate on the 81 series when we have nothing to evaluate makes many false presumptions or guesses with no foundation but to label and paint this new technology with such problems that have no history but in Plasma is ridiculous. Lets at least wait until we have something to judge before making false judgements.

I own four LCD TV's and have NEVER observed a hint of TIR/IR or Burn-in and I now have nearly 300 LCD Monitors on my network and never seen it either and they've been running for 4 yrs! Not saying it's impossible as nothing is but for God's sake to use that as an anti-LCD argument today chokes at ones credibility when it comes to the debate!

Please, out of the tens of thousands of posts in this LCD section please show us the proof of all this IR and burn-in - it is friggin rare. I view my 57" all weekend rarely turning it off and all night long I fall asleep viewing it during the week never turning it off until I leave for work and never a hint on it or the other 3 LCD's that have been rotated in my home and played Xbox/360 all day and never a hint - simply ZILCH!!!

Now as to the wonderful Panny PDP don't make me puke! Comparatively after owning an LCD the whites are like looking at someone just urinated on them yellowish or gray that lost a tide commercial - owned it and couldn't stand it after owning an SXRD and LCD and reflections night and day and daytime WASHOUT! Just try viewing a dark movie or xbox game with the sun and it's nearly impossible.

Sorry but the sun overwhelms a plasma and blinds can't cover everything for those of us that live in larger homes with tall windows. Yes, there are some issues but I see you as blowing them way out of proportion as most those owners are happy according to the poll and I do not see them running out to pick up a Plasma to satisfy their needs otherwise the LCD forum would not outnumber the PDP threads 2:1 regularly! As the Pio is freely available why are you slumming? I guess because you love to interject on whats next as you've done with every panel and nothing wrong with that but to slam all of LCD in favor of PDP is fine but your in denial as to why people are here shopping LCD's.

Lipcracker - To falsely represent LCD with TIR and Burn-in is flat out flamebait bullshit! :cool:

Well, I've just about made up my mind on the new Pio 8G panel whenever it comes
out, but I am still interested in the 81-series. I really wish there were more details
coming soon. Anyone know of an announcement date or anything? I don't believe
any hint of pricing has been considered has it? I think, however, the possible available
sizes were discussed. Anyone want to refresh me on this?

The new Samsung/Sony plant was completed very early due to better weather than anticipated and so they may make it to market sooner if in fact the 81 is being produced at the new shared plant they've just finished. Considering the 57" Samsung reaches it's first anniversary at the end of June it's update should be at about the same time also.

One can hope to see if the LED can deliver on wider color gamut and blacks without crush - an SXRD level of shadow details in an LCD Flat panel would be my goal. ;)

Should be an exciting next 6 months between the 81 series, Sony's newest offerings and the Pio Super Plasma and if it can deliver it's blacks without crush as we already know Pio has the best of class processing but can it deliver on shadow details and is their definition of new anti-glare fact or fiction. Sometimes CES is a bitch - all the anticipation and waiting that runs 6-12 months.

Despite the new criticisms of the Samsungs I feel they are a step forward when I've viewed them they's been at the top three panels in the store but never to a point where I would pull my wallet out and buy it since it's hard to WoW you with a 46" when your already viewing a 57"- the panel is very good and an advancement in many respects but with still more to go which I suspect the 71/81 will address otherwise why bother? Samsung simply creates another tier and profit margin many will pay for those added features to take LCD to the next level (we can hope). Interesting how silent Sony has been on their next gen XBR's and I hardly think they are sitting still and will let itself be leapfrogged by it's competition and rely on Branding alone, but of course one will pay a price to go there but they best not be cloudy! ;)

Hey Lipcrkr? I believe you were at the LA HT CE Show in June 2006. What happened? Did it not do well or is it simply rotating to NY? All the hype and I see nothing for this year and that NY show has historically had it's focus in Audio with low turnout in TV Manufacturers unless new announcements are planned. Why no repeat of the LA Show from last year where Sony used as a platform?
Ever been involved with plant start-ups/expansions? If so you are aware of the inheirtant challenges/issues with a 'start-up'.

Well your opinion might change (mine already has) when the Samsung 81 series comes out. I'm confident it will have the best PQ out of all the technologies...even the new "super" plasmas from Pioneer won't beat it. ;)

Do you have any real basis for your statements or this is just rambling?

There has been no public proof yet that LED BL color rendering is beating plasma. There is some scarce initial info that it is not so. Same with LD (Local Dimming), I would like to see if its claimed super CR does not have side effects like ghosts and aureolas.

Sony LCD has better shadow detail and black level than a Pioneer plasma. Read the test here:Sony VS Pioneer test (http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/Sony-LCD-vs-Pioneer-Plasma/Picture-Quality.php)

Right, but the same test emphasizes that color fidelity and accuracy of Sony is not on the level of Pioneer. It seems it is difficult to improve all
LCD parameters across the range.

First Samsung LCD with LED BL has been tested and it was not flooring people:

http://www.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.areadvd.de%2Fhardware%2F2006%2F Samsung_LE-40M91B_01.shtml&langpair=de%7Cen&hl=en&ie=UTF8

Hopefully 81 series will be better but claiming that before testing is premature.

My prediction is that it will be less crappy than my Samsung 4661 :D :D.
It will not "be a Sharp" :(, and it WILL crush blacks.

Right, but the same test emphasizes that color fidelity and accuracy of Sony is not on the level of Pioneer. It seems it is difficult to improve all
LCD parameters across the range.

First Samsung LCD with LED BL has been tested and it was not flooring people:

http://www.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.areadvd.de%2Fhardware%2F2006%2F Samsung_LE-40M91B_01.shtml&langpair=de%7Cen&hl=en&ie=UTF8

Hopefully 81 series will be better but claiming that before testing is premature.

That german review gave plus points for Very neutral color representation. :rolleyes: I don't have measurements for that samsung led model, but NEC SpectraView 2180WG-LED has 98% perfect colors with all being at least correct.

I think you guys are not making enough considerations. I think what we need to
talk more about is how well these images look when moving, as well as off-center
viewing. Colours and black levels are important, don't get me wrong, but I wonder
just how well it'll be when in motion, and off to the side. I'm curious to know just
how good/fast local dimming truly is. Does it also mean we can forego some of the
filtering technology that makes LCD's nice and black from the front, at the expense
of off-angle viewing? Does the local dimming feature add a bottleneck to response
time for fast moving images? Will the LED *FINALLY* look as good at night as it does
look at day? That is, does that slightly transparent look of backlighting during the
night finally diminish? This is one of the things I've always had an issue with LCD's
where the plasmas/Tube don't seem to suffer: source vs. backlighting has advantages
and disadvatages.

I mean, look at this image:
http://www.gizmodo.com/assets/resources/2007/01/Samsung%20contrat.JPG

Notice how the LED version doesn't show as much black detail, especially on the
woman's right side (viewer's left). The textures are not as noticeable as it's drowned
out in red. Does the shadow detail take a beating as well? (look at her neck on
the right vs. the left to see what I mean). Heck, her face is kinda washed out.


I guess the million dollar question is: Outside of higher CR (yay!) and better blacks,
what does LED (local dimming) give me over the current LCD? Does better blacks
in this case automatically mean better colour detail? Does it deal with any of the
considerations I mention above? Any issues with life expectancy? Any chance of a
"dead LED" (synonymous to dead-pixel)? Will the off-center viewing be as good?
Any added response-time related issues? Does it look transparent at decent illumination
levels during the night? This seems like pretty new stuff, and I don't know just
how proven the technology is yet.

I guess the million dollar question is: Outside of higher CR (yay!) and possibly better
blacks, what does LED (local dimming) give me over the current LCD? Does it deal
with any of the considerations I mention above? Any issues with life expectancy?
Any chance of a a "dead LED" (synonymous to dead-pixel)? Will the off-center viewing
be as good? Any added response-time related issues? This seems like pretty new
stuff, and I don't know just how proven the technology is yet.

Better colors, much improved lifetime(100000++ hours when leds will be dead), lower power consumption, much improved backlight uniformity, 120hz(motion detail), off-center viewing will still be affected(you loose panel contrast, but not backlight contrast). Sony has had qualia 005 led lcd for years, so led lcd is not new technology. It's just becoming cheap enough for consumer displays. Plus: never compare shadow detail from a picture :rolleyes:

Plus: never compare shadow detail from a picture

Normally I'd agree, but the same variables that would affect shadow details are at
play in that picture. The important thing to note is *relative* to each other, there
is a difference, which the camera is not influencing. Look again at the picture above
and pay attention to the wrinkles in her blouse, as well as her face/neck. One woman
looks more real than the other. Perhaps the brightness or colour saturation is kinda
messed on the LED panel.

Normally I'd agree, but the same variables that would affect shadow details are at
play in that picture. The important thing to note is *relative* to each other, there
is a difference, which the camera is not influencing. Look again at the picture above.
One woman looks more real than the other.

That picture shows clearly that the led display has way too wide dynamic range(contrast) for the camera picture was with, so all details will be naturally crushed.

That picture shows clearly that the led display has way too wide dynamic range(contrast) for the camera picture was with, so all details will be naturally crushed.

I'll take your word for it that I gotta see this in real life to appreciate it. Still, I take
lots and lots of pictures and never had issues with my camera missing detail.

Don't get me wrong, by the way, I am just as excited as the next guy over the LED
BL displays, I am just wondering, are we jumping the gun a bit here?

I'll take your word for it that I gotta see this in real life to appreciate it. Still, I take
lots and lots of pictures and never had issues with my camera missing detail.

Don't get me wrong, by the way, I am just as excited as the next guy over the LED
BL displays, I am just wondering, are we jumping the gun a bit here?

Compact digital cameras have dynamic range of ~200:1, DSLR have range of ~1000:1, all fine for current plasmas and lcd displays. When taking picture of local dimmed lcd, think about taking a picture of some clouds with sun ruining your shot.

That german review gave plus points for Very neutral color representation. :rolleyes: I don't have measurements for that samsung led model, but NEC SpectraView 2180WG-LED has 98% perfect colors with all being at least correct.

We are talking here about top-of-the-cream displays, so the Samsung LCD is no bad at all. Point is that it is no perfect either, from the review:

"colours with smaller brightness are somewhat weakly represented".

sounds like a new rather strange type of artefact.

There is shaping a body of facts concerning artefacts in LCD which calls for a careful approach to promises of new technologies and hype by manufacturers.

LED LD BL will have to be critically evaluated. LD will have pass test for artefacts to be qualified as useful technology. Otherwise it will end up like the "dynamic contrast" setting: switch it off immediately :D.

Colours on my CCFL LCD are fine. I just got an LG 24 incher and LED backlight is not worth it enough to spend 1.5-2x the price on say, the new samsung 24 coming out soon. But the improved contrast would definitely pay for itself. Especially with HDR gaming, and dark space movies. Watched AVP in 1080p and it was mind-blowingly disgustingly awesome, even on a 24 incher 1080p is just sickeningly good and worth it. So I'm glad I can wait for later in the year now to get an 81 series or one of the new LGs with a million-to-one. Big contrast is the next big thing. Smooth 120hz motion would also help convince me to spend several thousand, but not unless all the other variables are perfect.

Perfect set? We can demand no less in our quest for the perfect TV. Let's hope the crushing blacks isn't a function of some flawed processing stage where dark detail stimulus in the signal isn't being appropriately translated into minutiae in dark shadow details. One of the reasons I bought this LG P-MVA is the reviewer from hardocp who commented this technology doesn't crush blacks, and sure enough, they look fantastic. Even though this is only a 1000:1, I wouldn't buy a 1,000,000:1 display if I couldn't see details in the black areas.

Samsung get your act together or the korean LG monster will destroy you!

We are talking here about top-of-the-cream displays, so the Samsung LCD is no bad at all. Point is that it is no perfect either, from the review:

"colours with smaller brightness are somewhat weakly represented".

sounds like a new rather strange type of artefact.

There is shaping a body of facts concerning artefacts in LCD which calls for a careful approach to promises of new technologies and hype by manufacturers.

LED LD BL will have to be critically evaluated. LD will have pass test for artefacts to be qualified as useful technology. Otherwise it will end up like the "dynamic contrast" setting: switch it off immediately :D.

Yes, you can get all kind of strange artifacts with googles computer translations. All good for plasma fanboys, though. :D

Ok, well is Samsung going to implement strobing LED BLU in order to prevent color leakage? If your statement is right about this, then I would hope they do implement it because it would be a shame if they don't.

This was only my speculation about potential for the improvement of LCD color purity. However, to implement this idea one would need displays with very short switching times. If current standard displays is becoming 120Hz, strobing would require 360 Hz since each color would be switched on sequentially. In addition strobing would require high peak impulses delivered to LEDs to get sufficient average output light. All these problems can be solved but products will not be coming this year.

Most importantly, the whole idea of strobing should be checked with experts and they could say it is crazy:D.

I'm eventually going to need to overclock my eyes to be able to see all those frames

1. Better colors
2. much improved lifetime(100000++ hours when leds will be dead)
3. lower power consumption
4. much improved backlight uniformity
5. 120hz(motion detail)1. OK
2. 60,000 for CCFL is not bad, far longer than we really need. Non-issue.
3. I don't know, my 4661 uses 80 watts, that's pretty low.
4. Not at all, this is a function of the liquid crystals and coating, not necessarily BLU.
5. 120 hz does not seem to do much given current displays.

On your dynamic range comments, it is not necessarily good to have large dynamic range for normal viewing. For dark room viewing, yes. But for some ambient lighting, some dynamic compression actually would allow you to see black detail at the expense of CR. Same applies to audio in a noisy environment, say a car.

Just being the usual Devil's Advocate here :D.
Who knows, Samsung may actually make something decent this time.

That picture shows clearly that the led display has way too wide dynamic range(contrast) for the camera picture was with, so all details will be naturally crushed.

Lol, seriously guy.. i don't get it...

I'm looking at those, made for web compressed 200x200 pixel jpeg photos, on my 400:1 CR LCD , with 8 bit colors.

There is simply NO WAY I could EVER, EVER, EVER judge the quality from those photos, or state it's the cameras fault?? lol

PLEASE .. maybe the TV is the best ever, or maybe it's not, but PLEASE pause the pissing contest until someone acually sees the display in person.

Thanks :D

....[Applause].....

Lol, seriously guy.. i don't get it...

I'm looking at those, made for web compressed 200x200 pixel jpeg photos, on my 400:1 CR LCD , with 8 bit colors.

There is simply NO WAY I could EVER, EVER, EVER judge the quality from those photos, or state it's the cameras fault?? lol

PLEASE .. maybe the TV is the best ever, or maybe it's not, but PLEASE pause the pissing contest until someone acually sees the display in person.

Thanks :D

Even a beginner level photographer would be able to say that what's happening on that picture.

Here's an overexposed picture:

http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/graphics/workflow_dr_ex1b.jpg

Underexposed:

http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/graphics/workflow_dr_ex1a.jpg

And combined picture:

http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/graphics/workflow_dr_ex2b.jpg

To get a good picture of HDR display, photographer needs to take two pictures for good results.

Even a beginner level photographer would be able to say that what's happening on that picture.

Here's an overexposed picture:

http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/graphics/workflow_dr_ex1b.jpg

Underexposed:

http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/graphics/workflow_dr_ex1a.jpg

And combined picture:

http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/graphics/workflow_dr_ex2b.jpg

To get a good picture of HDR display, photographer needs to take two pictures for good results.
I think that review summed up a lot of things that seemed questionable. I never thought backlight dimming would be a good idea, its too much like Sammys Dynamic Contrast, seems like it would lose too much detail in blacks. I think the main advantage of LED is the increase in brightness which is really not needed in most LCD setups as they are fairly bright as it is. Whoever said this was the "super plasma killer" should probably get their head checked... I bet it will still be the best LCD on the market when it is released... until something else comes out of course : ).

I think that review summed up a lot of things that seemed questionable. I never thought backlight dimming would be a good idea, its too much like Sammys Dynamic Contrast, seems like it would lose too much detail in blacks. I think the main advantage of LED is the increase in brightness which is really not needed in most LCD setups as they are fairly bright as it is. Whoever said this was the "super plasma killer" should probably get their head checked... I bet it will still be the best LCD on the market when it is released... until something else comes out of course : ).

Backlight dimming is a good idea if it's done locally. That european samsung can't do local dimming. To get idea of how samsung 81 series works, you should really read this (http://www.bit-tech.net/hardware/2005/10/04/brightside_hdr_edr/6.html) page.

Backlight dimming is a good idea if it's done locally. That european samsung can't do local dimming. To get idea of how samsung 81 series works, you should really read this (http://www.bit-tech.net/hardware/2005/10/04/brightside_hdr_edr/6.html) page.
So much confusion could have been avoided if people took time to read this article before posting to this thread.

1. OK
2. 60,000 for CCFL is not bad, far longer than we really need. Non-issue.
3. I don't know, my 4661 uses 80 watts, that's pretty low.
4. Not at all, this is a function of the liquid crystals and coating, not necessarily BLU.
5. 120 hz does not seem to do much given current displays.

On your dynamic range comments, it is not necessarily good to have large dynamic range for normal viewing. For dark room viewing, yes. But for some ambient lighting, some dynamic compression actually would allow you to see black detail at the expense of CR. Same applies to audio in a noisy environment, say a car.

Just being the usual Devil's Advocate here :D.
Who knows, Samsung may actually make something decent this time.
I take it Mark you are not thrilled with you 4661 -other than black crush, off axis.....are there other issues?

^^ Good point xvYCC. Even though IR on plasmas has been improved, it still can happen rather easily if one is not careful.

Anyway, I'm not saying that the Samsung 81 series will be better than the Pioneer "super" plasmas. I'm saying that I hope that they are better because I prefer LCDs in general. The whites are rather dirty on plasmas and the picture is just not as vivid as the LCDs. Not to mention that I'm a gamer and IR will cause problems...

If you watch a plasma in a controlled lighting environment the white aren't dirty. However if you do sit one beside a nice LCD they do not look white. The new Pioneers are supposed to be using a different type of panel and are supposed and not only are blacks supposed to look good they are supposed to be brighter and handle reflections better. I too prefer the brightness and the whiter whites of an LCD but there are things I like better about plasmas. Neither LCD nor plasma are perfect and both have short comings so it all comes down to personal preference. I just hope the new 81 series doesn't lack in shadow detail as most LCDs already lag behind in that area (then again hopefully the new Pioneer's don't either).

However, I could be wrong but I have a feeling that the Samsung will be easier on the wallet than Pioneer. I just wish Samsung would have chosen a 60"er for the high end rather than a 57"er. I've upgraded my TV over the last years from a 62"er to a 60"er to a 58"er and if I go Samsung it'll be a 57"er. Something is wrong with this picture :confused: (pardon the pun).

I mean, look at this image:
http://www.gizmodo.com/assets/resources/2007/01/Samsung%20contrat.JPG

Notice how the LED version doesn't show as much black detail, especially on the
woman's right side (viewer's left). The textures are not as noticeable as it's drowned
out in red. Does the shadow detail take a beating as well? (look at her neck on
the right vs. the left to see what I mean). Heck, her face is kinda washed out...

Don't trust pictures. You can go back to the days when DLP first came out and if you judged by pictures you'd think the first DLPs on the market had as good of blacks as you see in that picture.

Even if the picture did display an accurate picture then you'd have to question are things like contrast, brightess, gamma level, and color set the same on both sets? Bright popping contrast pictures draw peoples attention and most peopled don't critically view things like this as we at AVS do.

The new Pioneers are supposed to be using a different type of panel and are supposed and not only are blacks supposed to look good they are supposed to be brighter and handle reflections better.

http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20070111/dg79_09.jpg

Yes, supposed to. :D

Yes, supposed to. :D

From what I recall, those are 7G panels, not the 8G ones. Dunno why, but they are
still releasing updated 7G panels as well. I believe it's to offer a cheaper alternative
for the budget-minded folks. The 60 incher is actually quite the potentially coveted
item if priced right. The current 60 inch is nearing the $5K Canadian at some places,
($4200+ US). Competition, especially from Panasonic and Samsung looks to be making
things a whole lot better for those who are interested in Plasma this year.

From what I recall, those are 7G panels, not the 8G ones. Dunno why, but they are
still releasing updated 7G panels as well. I believe it's to offer a cheaper alternative
for the budget-minded folks. The 60 incher is actually quite the potentially coveted
item if priced right. The current 60 inch is nearing the $5K Canadian at some places,
($4200+ US). Competition, especially from Panasonic and Samsung looks to be making
things a whole lot better for those who are interested in Plasma this year.

That picture is from ces 2007 pioneer 8G tech demo. On the left is 7G 6070, on the right is 8G pioneer. Nothing to do with 7.5G displays.

can't wait to see this 81 series.... until now i was planning on the 4665F for august when i have money to spend. by august, i guess i'll just splurge the extra cash if the 81 series is really that much better.

Backlight dimming is a good idea if it's done locally. That european samsung can't do local dimming. To get idea of how samsung 81 series works, you should really read this (http://www.bit-tech.net/hardware/2005/10/04/brightside_hdr_edr/6.html) page.

This info is well-known and does NOT dispel doubts about the LD.

LD has potential problem with artefacts, ESPECIALLY with moving objects. They can show up as ghosts, aureolas and shadows following brightly lit objects moving on black background. The effect will definitely be slight and visible only in darkened room conditions. Standard Johnny Consumer will be amazed by PQ, BL and CR of the display but critical observers like those on this forum endlessely pursuing cloudings & bandings will notice it immediately. There is thus signifcant potential for new future AVS threads discussing LDG - Local Dimming Ghosts and methods of preventing it including switching off the LD :D:D:D.

This info is well-known and does NOT dispel doubts about the LD.

LD has potential problem with artefacts, ESPECIALLY with moving objects. They can show up as ghosts, aureolas and shadows following brightly lit objects moving on black background. The effect will definitely be slight and visible only in darkened room conditions. Standard Johnny Consumer will be amazed by PQ, BL and CR of the display but critical observers like those on this forum endlessely pursuing cloudings & bandings will notice it immediately. There is thus signifcant potential for new future AVS threads discussing LDG - Local Dimming Ghosts and methods of preventing it including switching off the LD :D:D:D.

Keep dreaming, plasma fanboy :rolleyes: Only ghosts people will be seeing are r.i.p. plasmas after local dimmed lcd displays have killed plasma industry.

I take it Mark you are not thrilled with you 4661 -other than black crush, off axis.....are there other issues?Two other issues:
1. Unforgiving of SD, but I knew going in Samsung was this way.
2. IR interference, but ends 15-30 minutes after turnon.

I'm just barely thrilled enough to keep it, not a ringing endorsement but at 2.3K I can live with this crap for awhile (It's not too bad but it ain't a Sharp).

can't wait to see this 81 series.... until now i was planning on the 4665F for august when i have money to spend. by august, i guess i'll just splurge the extra cash if the 81 series is really that much better.

It's worth the extra money. Think about seeing HD for the first time kind of difference.

Any ETA?

Keep dreaming, plasma fanboy :rolleyes: Only ghosts people will be seeing are r.i.p. plasmas after local dimmed lcd displays have killed plasma industry.

My references to reality do not mean I am plasma fan:eek: I suppose your ramblings about LD are baseless. LD has to prove itself in critical tests.

It is absolutely evident that there is real potential for new types artefacts with the LD technology. Surely these artefacts will not be noticeable by average consumers but they are not taking part in the discussions here. Critical observers will test the LCD LD in dark rooms with adapted eyes. They know very well the interdependence of CR, BL and SD (Shadow Detail). Will LD be perfect solution for this? Only tests will show.

However, I could be wrong but I have a feeling that the Samsung will be easier on the wallet than Pioneer.

I can definatley bet on that. Pioneer is known for having high prices on top of the line tvs, and Samsung is known for the opposite. They always had reasonable prices. If the Samsung 81 series is as good as I'm reading (xvYCC is saying that it will be like the feeling of seeing HD for the first time again :eek: ) and seeing and if the price is reasonable (most likely it will be), then I'm buying this tv in a heartbeat when it comes out! :D

In other words this will most likely be THE ONE to get if one is looking for the best flat panel hdtv :cool:

I can definatley bet on that. Pioneer is known for having high prices on top of the line tvs, and Samsung is known for the opposite. They always had reasonable prices. If the Samsung 81 series is as good as I'm reading (xvYCC is saying that it will be like the feeling of seeing HD for the first time again :eek: ) and seeing and if the price is reasonable (most likely it will be), then I'm buying this tv in a heartbeat when it comes out! :D

In other words this will most likely be THE ONE to get if one is looking for the best flat panel hdtv :cool:
People are getting their hopes WAY too high. The type of "first time seeing HD" change will not occur. If this technology was capable of it, there would be much more hype than a single thread in this forum. I expect a decent increase over the current LCD offerings (mainly because almost anything besides a non banding D92U and perfect 65F pretty much are all the same). I do not expect improvements beyond a good Fujitsu plasma, or anything from the Elite line. I obviously could be wrong, but it would be better to be surprised than to be disappointed as I am sure a lot of people are going to be with this type of wishful thinking.

People are getting their hopes WAY too high. The type of "first time seeing HD" change will not occur. If this technology was capable of it, there would be much more hype than a single thread in this forum. I expect a decent increase over the current LCD offerings (mainly because almost anything besides a non banding D92U and perfect 65F pretty much are all the same). I do not expect improvements beyond a good Fujitsu plasma, or anything from the Elite line. I obviously could be wrong, but it would be better to be surprised than to be disappointed as I am sure a lot of people are going to be with this type of wishful thinking.

LOL

Obviously most people have never even seen the 81 series in action. They have seen only a couple of screenshots, specs, blah, blah, blah but most (including you) don't know how much of a HUGE difference LED BL makes. Some people who have seen it (necrolop for ex.) have been extremely impressed. I have been reading constantly about the new technology and from what I read, and I am super hyped. Yes, there is only one thread about this tv, but I can assure you the hype will grow trumendously when they come out in stores and people see it for themselves.

The "first time seeing HD" was xvYCC's quote and he may very well be right. Only time will tell. All I can say is that the changes from the previous generation tvs will be dramatic. When the black levels are true black, and the whites are true white, it makes every other color reproduced almost exactly as in real life and will make it pop out of the screen, making a almost three-dimentional picture. LED technology makes true blacks and whites.

Oh and another thing, I'm not wishfully thinking. This tv is the real deal. I'll be the guy saying "I told you so" to everyone who didn't think these tvs will be amazing.

People are getting their hopes WAY too high. The type of "first time seeing HD" change will not occur. If this technology was capable of it, there would be much more hype than a single thread in this forum. I expect a decent increase over the current LCD offerings (mainly because almost anything besides a non banding D92U and perfect 65F pretty much are all the same). I do not expect improvements beyond a good Fujitsu plasma, or anything from the Elite line. I obviously could be wrong, but it would be better to be surprised than to be disappointed as I am sure a lot of people are going to be with this type of wishful thinking.

This technology is capable of blackhole blacks(pioneer is hyping their blackish 8G like it would be second coming of christ), incredible ansi contrast(could burn your eyes out :cool: ) and accurate colors. If this woud be samsungs only product line, it would be hyped like there was no tomorrow.

LD has potential problem with artefacts, ESPECIALLY with moving objects. They can show up as ghosts, aureolas and shadows following brightly lit objects moving on black background. The effect will definitely be slight and visible only in darkened room conditions.
The key word here is "potential". Anything is "potentially" possible. Earth could potentially be struck by meteor today or I can potentially have a winning lottery ticket in my pocket. 81s can potentially offer the best PQ ever. On the other hand, LD can potentially introduce its own artifacts. Let's wait for people to lay their eyes on the actual display before pointing out potential problems that may not even exist. 3-4 months from now, we'll know everything.

People are getting their hopes WAY too high. The type of "first time seeing HD" change will not occur. If this technology was capable of it, there would be much more hype than a single thread in this forum.

From who, Samsung? Why would they cannibalize sales of their current sets by hyping something no one can currently buy?

From who, Samsung? Why would they cannibalize sales of their current sets by hyping something no one can currently buy?

Especially true since this product was not slated until a few months. If they release it sooner all the praise to them. I for one am willing to delay my purchase of a LCD (Either 4661/65 or the reported-but-not-yet-confirmed-band-free 82U) until I get reviews from the 81 series.

I hope you guys are correct in your logic that Samsung always had aggressive pricing and this series does not come with an *elite* price tag. I'd be willing to pay premium but my budget is not infinite :)

People are getting their hopes WAY too high...
The problem is not "hopes", it's expressing speculation as if it's fact. Read enough posts and it becomes obvious who is credible and who is not.

Hope what you want, but y'all should expect this new technology to be immature.

The 71 & 81 series should come out in a couple of months/Summer time frame according to a Samsung rep that was at the Grand Opening of the Fry's store in Roseville CA. this last weekend.

Also he mentioned that the 81 series LED array would be divided into 64 sections for separate control on dimming. Hmmmm, I wonder if you will be able to see darker/lighter blocks on the screen. I can see a whole new set of problems for this new technology. But that isn't anything new for any new technology.

And he mentioned the prices would be more than he could afford and the 81 series would be made in limited quantities because it will be a high end, low volume product to begin with. The average consumer won't be buying it.

He mentioned Samsung does monitor the AVS Forum's. He wasn't aware of any HDMI handshaking issues with the 61,65,66 series, but he doesn't hear from the engineers. He didn't know anything about the lighter side bars on the same units. (Or more likely, just didn't admit to it. They aren't going to admit to problems to the public, thus giving other manufactures ammo. Other manufactures do the same).

The glossy screen on the 65/66 series is to bring the plasma people over to the LCD's as well as for better performance and thru the window viewing experience. No reflections when on, but admitted you might see them in dark content. Most viewing is done at night and in a controlled environment they think. And kids don't care when watching during the day.

AVS forum members account for less than 1% of their business. :(

Customers and Customer Support is their number one priority (yada yada yada).

And the new Fry's store had the entire TV section in a dark area with a low ceiling over it and at the back of the store, which was nice. But they had the input going through a hundred TV's on the Antennae Inputs and they looked so BAD. It was 1080i.

They were pushing Sony's. And had the BluRay connected to the Sony 52" on the end cap. They had all the 52" LCD's on one row, 46's on another, etc.