Samsung 81 Series anticipation thread

[irkuck]

Ok, the 81 series does not need 120hz refresh rate! The LED backlight technology will completely get rid of motion blur. Do some research dude.

The first bolded sentence is complete conjecture, based on a video where a Samsung guy mentioned something he called LED scanning, but didn't explain what it was or how it helps.


This is not complete conjecture. LED BL can help with elimination of motion blur by switching off the LEDs for brief time. LCD motion blur is effect caused not only by the LCD switching time but also by the retention of picture on the retina. Darkening of picture for short time eliminates the retention.

[studdad]

jmhumr, thanks again. Yeah, i figured that would be the case. Well I am still torn between waiting for the new Samsungs this Summer, and trying one of the "fixed" 5265's. It is really a matter of the wait and price. I know I would probably enjoy the new ones more, or at least always tell myself that, but the wait is a killer, and who knows what the price premium will be.

[snowstorm81]

Info about 2007 SID that takes place this week, see Samsung web
Their 40" LCD (called M91 in Europe, released in september 2006) with led-backlight has won a price for 2007 years best innovation (read 2006)
Samsung US
http://www.samsung.com/PressCenter/PressRelease/PressRelease.asp?seq=20070519_0000347719
Samsung Korea:
http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.samsung.co.kr%2Fnews%2Fbiz_view .jsp%3Fcontentid%3D115999&langpair=ko%7Cen&hl=en&ie=UTF8

SID motivation: http://www.sid.org/pressroom/070511.html

more pictures
http://www.akihabaranews.com/en/news-13885-Samsung+Shows+at+SID+2007:++70%E2%80%9D+120+Hz+Full-HD+LCD,+Flexible+Color+E-paper+Display+and+40%E2%80%9D+LED-backlit+%E2%80%9CDisplay+of+Year%E2%80%9D.html

But they must be showing their new LED backlight series on the exibhition, or? Any info someone?

Perhaps I'll buy this one instead and skip 81 - but I want super clear panel with LED backlight...

[SED <--- Rules]

^ Hopefully they will show off the 81 series for once at SID in Cali.... :)

Actually that 40 inch Samsung in the link you have there has a contrast ratio of 10,000:1. That can't be the 81 series. It looks like the same LED tv they showed off last year... Hmmm

[AceBates]

^ sounds more like a typo to me. 5 times that of traditional CCFL backlit LCDs...and the LN-T4665F boasts > 10k:1. I wonder if someone forgot a zero or has some bad data.

[snowstorm81]

Actually that 40 inch Samsung in the link you have there has a contrast ratio of 10,000:1. That can't be the 81 series. It looks like the same LED tv they showed off last year... Hmmm

But they must be showing their new LED backlight series on the exibhition, or? Any info someone?

Perhaps I'll buy this one instead and skip 81 - but I want super clear panel with LED backlight...


I already stated clearly above that the 40" LCD Samsung shows at SID this week is the "old" M91 released in Europe in october last year... It has 100Hz (PAL) / 120Hz (NTSC) and dynamic contrast of 10 000:1. Not local dimming?

Newer M86 (Europe) or 65-series (US) has 15 000:1, thanks to its super clear panel. Moreover : 81-series contrast "exceptional 50,000:1 by selectively reducing light for pixels that display darker colors in a given scene"
and local dimming. On other places it says that
"LG raises the bar by ditching the fluorescent backlights from most LCDs and using a matrix of light-emitting diodes. In addition to way deeper color, the LEDs gives Samsung that ability to selectively darken or brighten the backlight in different parts of the screen. This yields a contrast ratio of 100,000 to 1, they say."
Is this a typo - who says a contrast of 100 000, Samsung or LG?

[Mr T]

This is not complete conjecture. LED BL can help with elimination of motion blur by switching off the LEDs for brief time. LCD motion blur is effect caused not only by the LCD switching time but also by the retention of picture on the retina. Darkening of picture for short time eliminates the retention.

That's a very reasonable explanation of why LD LED BL would help on LCD motion blur. Thank you.

[Cynn]

Do we have any idea of price or street date yet?

[Karamba676]

the 81 series does not need 120hz refresh rate! The LED backlight technology will completely get rid of motion blur. Do some research dude.


How about you do some research yourself. 120Hz is to eliminate 3-2 pulldown.

[bigjohns1997SS]

How about you do some research yourself. 120Hz is to eliminate 3-2 pulldown.

And motion blur.

[SED <--- Rules]

How about you do some research yourself. 120Hz is to eliminate 3-2 pulldown.

Wow whats with some people here taking things so seriously? Like I'm threatining them or something. Get real. To the quoted poster: I wasn't talking to you!

Yes, 120Hz eliminates 3-2 pulldown and motion blur. LED backlighting also eliminates motion blur. The Samsung 81s use LED backlighting. Period. I was previously talking about MOTION BLUR not 3-2 pulldown. The 81s don't need 120Hz for MOTION BLUR. Wow...

[Aeonin]

Wow whats with some people here taking things so seriously? Like I'm threatening them or something. Get real. To the quoted poster: I wasn't talking to you!

Yes, 120Hz eliminates 3-2 pull down and motion blur. LED back lighting also eliminates motion blur. The Samsung 81s use LED back lighting. Period. I was previously talking about MOTION BLUR not 3-2 pull down. The 81s don't need 120Hz for MOTION BLUR. Wow...

I may be confused about this, but aren't the advances of LED BLU and 120Hz for Motion Blur completely different (and solve different issues)?

LED BLU specifically helps motion blur reduction with "black frame insertion". This method deals with clearing the retina of any image retention. Thereby you perceive the original frames with less motion blur.

While the 120Hz McFi Interpolation method doubles the amount of frames, by interpolating two original frames into a new frame. You're getting brand new frames here, instead of tricking the retina into improved perception.

So I think, the combination of both technologies that Samsung is privy to would definitely be the best of both worlds: New interpolated smooth frames combined with improved image retention techniques. That way it could be possible to have an even better reduction of motion blur (I'd rather not use the word "eliminate")

However, I wonder if this would be possible (or included) on the 81s.

[Magic(tm)]

Well it needs IMHO. Just because the backlight is quick enough the pixels shift speed is still a problem. Yes it helps and yes it may get better because of the benefits mention here. Like SED said ... why is all the anger around here. I just want to see the 81 series first and see if the the LED backlight alone will end motion blur cause I doubt it. The European version could also shut down all 21xx LEDs and yes that was quicker than the pixelshift speed so was unnoticed but it didn't helped a peace with the motion blur.

I saw that display on my own in Germany ... okay I know now I get all anger .. but its nothing more than my opinion, my 2 cent.

[studdad]

Wow whats with some people here taking things so seriously? Like I'm threatining them or something. Get real. To the quoted poster: I wasn't talking to you!

Yes, 120Hz eliminates 3-2 pulldown and motion blur. LED backlighting also eliminates motion blur. The Samsung 81s use LED backlighting. Period. I was previously talking about MOTION BLUR not 3-2 pulldown. The 81s don't need 120Hz for MOTION BLUR. Wow...

LOL, i think people are getting antsy....we need more INFO!!!!!!

[WaldorfSalad]

Yes, 120Hz eliminates 3-2 pulldown and motion blur. LED backlighting also eliminates motion blur. The Samsung 81s use LED backlighting. Period. I was previously talking about MOTION BLUR not 3-2 pulldown. The 81s don't need 120Hz for MOTION BLUR. Wow...People tend to blame the LCD panel response time & refresh rate for motion blur when in many cases the so-called "motion blur" is actually caused by too much compression in the source. This is easy to see if you have a HD DVR (like the DirecTV HD-Tivo) that lets you pause and slo-mo the picture being sent to the TV. If you look closely you can see the picture deteriorate as fine detail is lost in and around moving objects as tiny macroblocking amd mosquito noise takes over. I doubt 120Hz or LED backlighting is going to eliminate motion blur that is caused by the poor quality of the source.

[SED <--- Rules]

LED BLU specifically helps motion blur reduction with "black frame insertion". This method deals with clearing the retina of any image retention. Thereby you perceive the original frames with less motion blur.

While the 120Hz McFi Interpolation method doubles the amount of frames, by interpolating two original frames into a new frame. You're getting brand new frames here, instead of tricking the retina into improved perception.


You are exactly right here. Unfortunatley, at this time (no new announcements) the Samsung 81 series will obviously have LED BLU, but it will not have 120Hz refresh rates. There has been no mention that the 81s will have 120Hz, but that may change...you never know.

People tend to blame the LCD panel response time & refresh rate for motion blur when in many cases the so-called "motion blur" is actually caused by too much compression in the source. This is easy to see if you have a HD DVR (like the DirecTV HD-Tivo) that lets you pause and slo-mo the picture being sent to the RV. If you look closely you can see the picture deteriorate as fine detail is lost in and around moving objects as tiny macroblocking amd mosquito noise takes over. I doubt 120Hz or LED backlighting is going to eliminate motion blur that is caused by the poor quality of the source.

This may very well be the case, but I think 120Hz or LEDs will somewhat fix the motion blur problem. Your right though, a good source is key to having a good picture.

LOL, i think people are getting antsy....we need more INFO!!!!!!

Definatley! :eek: I can't believe people can get so angry! More info Sammy! :D

Do we have any idea of price or street date yet?

No. :(

[irkuck]

People tend to blame the LCD panel response time & refresh rate for motion blur when in many cases the so-called "motion blur" is actually caused by too much compression in the source. This is easy to see if you have a HD DVR (like the DirecTV HD-Tivo) that lets you pause and slo-mo the picture being sent to the TV. If you look closely you can see the picture deteriorate as fine detail is lost in and around moving objects as tiny macroblocking amd mosquito noise takes over. I doubt 120Hz or LED backlighting is going to eliminate motion blur that is caused by the poor quality of the source.

This type of CMB (Compression Motion Blur) is much less visible in plasma. It might be then that LCD is enhancing it. 120Hz or LED BL may eliminate this enhancement bringing visibility of the
CMB to plasma levels.

[WaldorfSalad]

This type of CMB (Compression Motion Blur) is much less visible in plasma. It might be then that LCD is enhancing it. 120Hz or LED BL may eliminate this enhancement bringing visibility of the CMB to plasma levels.Could be due to plasma display having 768p resolution vs 1080p on the LCDs?

[haiku_aubade]

here's hoping that the 81's will have 120Hz.. would be sweet but I don't know if it's necessary or not. I would expect the best from Sony though

[Ted Todorov]

Is it confirmed if this TV will have all-in-one features???

I ask this cause the last time (after CES 07), there was a press release stating:

Movie-centered= 81 series
-1080p@50-60hz/fps + 24hz/fps for movies
-LED backlight with local dimming

BUT NO 120hz refresh rate
Is the 50-60hz/fps confirmed for American models, or will 50Hz be Europe only? So far as I can tell the 4065F's and similar were 60Hz only. This is hugely important to me because I have a ton of PAL DVDs.

120Hz sounds great, but the problem is AFAIK, not a single one of the 120Hz LCDs will accept a 120Hz input! They just play games with 60Hz input. What would make the real difference, for anyone with an HTPC is to be able to set the video input to 120Hz and let the PC do the upscaling. Any good video card should be able to do 1080P DVI @ 120Hz.

[sanman_76]

This type of CMB (Compression Motion Blur) is much less visible in plasma. It might be then that LCD is enhancing it. 120Hz or LED BL may eliminate this enhancement bringing visibility of the
CMB to plasma levels.


Perhaps because the plasma pixel is the size of a pea. My friend has a Pioneer plasma last years 43" (if this makes sense). He paid an arm and leg for it, and it too had motion blur or shall I say blur associated to video compression. Westy said it best, but I 'll rephrase it. Garbage in = Garbage out. Bad feed = Bad picture. Same goes for upscaling. One will never achieve true 1080p with a 480i/p source. You cant get something from nothing... If that were the case I'd be selling my feces and be rich doing so. Hey I might be on to something here. :)


Also people do need to chill. None of us really know much about the 81 series. Why don't we all stop looking like asses before they release the specs and find out we are all wrong. I too look forward to new technology, but speculation only holds a certain amount of value. If you guys are correct you can always say "I told you so".

[Admiral Ackbar]

Holy crap, Philips just announced the price of their LED backlit LCD.

http://www.electronichouse.com/article/philips_celebrates_ambilight_anniversary_with_1080p_leds_and _larger_screen/C157

$3599 for a 52" LED backlit LCD. 47" for $2799.

Lets pray to the TV dieties that Samsung is somehwere near that.


Edit: Actually, looking at Philips website, I'm not sure if the TV is LED backlit, the story could be misreported. The only thing it says at Philips website is that the Ambilight System (which we all turn off) is LED based.

[darkninja67]

Holy crap, Philips just announced the price of their LED backlit LCD.

http://www.electronichouse.com/article/philips_celebrates_ambilight_anniversary_with_1080p_leds_and _larger_screen/C157

$3599 for a 52" LED backlit LCD. 47" for $2799.

Lets pray to the TV dieties that Samsung is somehwere near that.


Edit: Actually, looking at Philips website, I'm not sure if the TV is LED backlit, the story could be misreported. The only thing it says at Philips website is that the Ambilight System (which we all turn off) is LED based.
quoted from that link "an energy-efficient LED backlight "

[Admiral Ackbar]

quoted from that link "an energy-efficient LED backlight "

I realize that (hence why I said the story might be misreported), but on Philips website the only time LED is mentioned in the specs, its reffering to the Ambilight.

[Schwarzenegger]

I realize that (hence why I said the story might be misreported), but on Philips website the only time LED is mentioned in the specs, its reffering to the Ambilight.

the "LED" is referring to the ambilight

[darkninja67]

I realize that (hence why I said the story might be misreported), but on Philips website the only time LED is mentioned in the specs, its reffering to the Ambilight.
I see that now.
You would think Philips would know the difference between bias lighting and an actual backlight.

[SED <--- Rules]

Patience my fellow potty mouthed AVS member. Soon. Although, my patience is wearing a little thin also. Just a little. Samsung likes to wait until the very last moment for an announcement.....lol ;)

[xb1032]

Patience! The Great Pumpkin will soon rise out of the pumpkin patch!

Sorry couldn't resist :p. Someday we'll get some info.

[Karamba676]

I see that now.
You would think Philips would know the difference between bias lighting and an actual backlight.


Philips does. Whoever reported that does not.

[lipcrkr]

52" 81 series = $6.4K

[naknak]

52" 81 series = $6.4K


Is that a fact?

[smaybee]

52" 81 series = $6.4K

Care to let us know where this information comes from? Or is it just a guess?
Would be nice to have some indication of the reliability of a statement like this.

[avs2avs]

Perhaps because the plasma pixel is the size of a pea. My friend has a Pioneer plasma last years 43" (if this makes sense). He paid an arm and leg for it, and it too had motion blur or shall I say blur associated to video compression. Westy said it best, but I 'll rephrase it. Garbage in = Garbage out. Bad feed = Bad picture. Same goes for upscaling. One will never achieve true 1080p with a 480i/p source. You cant get something from nothing... If that were the case I'd be selling my feces and be rich doing so. Hey I might be on to something here. :)


Also people do need to chill. None of us really know much about the 81 series. Why don't we all stop looking like asses before they release the specs and find out we are all wrong. I too look forward to new technology, but speculation only holds a certain amount of value. If you guys are correct you can always say "I told you so".
This post is a prime example why opinions are like a**holes, every one has one :rolleyes:

If you bother to compare an LCD (Samsung, Sharp, whatever) with a current Pioneer plasma side by side, fed by the same source, you will see plenty of motion blur on the LCD and only very rarely (if at all) on the plasma.

I have no idea how the 81 series will handle motion blur, I hope it does away with it, or at least reduces it to the level of plasmas.

I'm uncommitted at this point, and I am awaiting both the 81 series Sammy and the 8G Pioneer plasma http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=782695
May the best panel win!:)

[lipcrkr]

Care to let us know where this information comes from? Or is it just a guess?
Would be nice to have some indication of the reliability of a statement like this.

You do research by comparing what the top of the line new 52" LCD's have been announced at, then factor in the new technology. The new Mitsubishi diamond series 52" LCD, with the conventional CCFL backlight, has an MSRP of $5699. So right off the bat, the 52" LED Sammy will have an MSRP of over $5699. Now, my original estimate as far as premium for LED was higher due to the fact that this is new technology, however, seeing that Samsung has priced their new LED DLP on par with bulb based sets i have lowered the MSRP to around an $800 premium. If you have anything better let us know.

[valoidr]

[QUOTE=WaldorfSalad]People tend to blame the LCD panel response time & refresh rate for motion blur when in many cases the so-called "motion blur" is actually caused by too much compression in the source. This is easy to see if you have a HD DVR (like the DirecTV HD-Tivo) that lets you pause and slo-mo the picture being sent to the TV.

So do how do you explain the reduction or lack of motion blur on plasma displays?

[lipcrkr]

You are comparing apples and oranges. 81 series will be the top of the line samsung, not mitsubishi. 52" 81 series should street under $4k.

LMAO. Apparently comprehension is not your strong suit.

[Shayne2]

This post is a prime example why opinions are like a**holes, every one has one :rolleyes:

If you bother to compare an LCD (Samsung, Sharp, whatever) with a current Pioneer plasma side by side, fed by the same source, you will see plenty of motion blur on the LCD and only very rarely (if at all) on the plasma.

I have no idea how the 81 series will handle motion blur, I hope it does away with it, or at least reduces it to the level of plasmas.

I'm uncommitted at this point, and I am awaiting both the 81 series Sammy and the 8G Pioneer plasma http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=782695
May the best panel win!:)
You are right and it appears you have yours also. As for mine i need a rock hard stable still image and can put up with a little blur while watching the idiot box. What i cannot handle is burn in and therefore the winner is announced.

Regards

[Shayne2]

LMAO. Apparently comprehension is not your strong suit.
Yeah but 6 1/2 k initial msrp = 4 1/2 k a few months down the road which is right in the ball park if results match the stats.

Regards

[sanman_76]

This post is a prime example why opinions are like a**holes, every one has one

You have one too? I was worried there for a moment... :)

I do agree many higher end plasmas do not exhibit as much motion blur, but I think many are confusing motion blur with macroblocking. PBSHD is a great example. If you have ever watched "The Desert Speaks" you will notice unacceptable compression in the signal resulting in horrible picture quality with any movement. If I switch to Discovery HD things look spectacular! Plasma technology was a stop gap for HDTV. Now the technology is moving to LCD. There are cheaper to produce, have less issues with IR, and are catching up / surpassing CRT and Plasma picture quality. Why is every TV manufacturer moving away from plasma if the technology is so good?

Also does anybody remember when plasma first came out? They had a 50% failure rate and cost a fortune. The first few shipments from Japan / China all arrived with broken glass. In fact the glass inside a plasma was so fragile, that if you tipped the panel a certain degree off axis the glass just could not hold its own weight and cracked. I know this because I used to work with the largest A/V installer in the Northeast, and they were fed up with installing plasma displays. They were also plagued with IR issues. Over the years they improved considerably, but the technology was very problematic. SED, LCOS, and other new technologies are promising but it may be years before they get it right. If Canon did not screw up their partnership with their nanotube partners Nano-Proprietary and did not form a joint television venture with Toshiba, we may have seen a 2007-2008 SED TV.

http://www.cnet.com.au/tvs/0,239035250,339273826,00.htm

Now I think LCD is here to stay for a very long time and has an edge over the other technologies... Go Samsung go!!!

[wtr_wkr]

You are comparing apples and oranges. 81 series will be the top of the line samsung, not mitsubishi. 52" 81 series should street under $4k.
Sammy said 81 will be limited production. The "limited" is likely to be due to high production costs, not limited line capacity. Go read article(s) in the LCD Technology thread to see the difference in 11th vs 12th generation LCD BLUs. Current R&D is to get the cost down.

How much do you want to bet that it'll street under $4k?

[method404]

does anyone know if the 71 or 81 series screens will come in gloss or matte finish?

[DaViet]

52" 81 series = $6.4K
Sold!!! I'll take two.

[DaViet]

I'll buy you a free 52" 81 series if it won't street under $4k after release. Mid range 52" samsungs will hover around $2k by summer. BLU in 81 series will probably add only $200-300 extra to BOM.
Can I get in on this offer as well?

[lipcrkr]

Can I get in on this offer as well?

It's a nice offer but if you read closely he says "after release" meaning maybe 5 months down the road. I was talking about MSRP, obviously he isn't.

[valoidr]

You have one too? I was worried there for a moment... :)

I do agree many higher end plasmas do not exhibit as much motion blur, but I think many are confusing motion blur with macroblocking. PBSHD is a great example. If you have ever watched "The Desert Speaks" you will notice unacceptable compression in the signal resulting in horrible picture quality with any movement. If I switch to Discovery HD things look spectacular! Plasma technology was a stop gap for HDTV. Now the technology is moving to LCD. There are cheaper to produce, have less issues with IR, and are catching up / surpassing CRT and Plasma picture quality. Why is every TV manufacturer moving away from plasma if the technology is so good?

Also does anybody remember when plasma first came out? They had a 50% failure rate and cost a fortune. The first few shipments from Japan / China all arrived with broken glass. In fact the glass inside a plasma was so fragile, that if you tipped the panel a certain degree off axis the glass just could not hold its own weight and cracked. I know this because I used to work with the largest A/V installer in the Northeast, and they were fed up with installing plasma displays. They were also plagued with IR issues. Over the years they improved considerably, but the technology was very problematic. SED, LCOS, and other new technologies are promising but it may be years before they get it right. If Canon did not screw up their partnership with their nanotube partners Nano-Proprietary and did not form a joint television venture with Toshiba, we may have seen a 2007-2008 SED TV.

http://www.cnet.com.au/tvs/0,239035250,339273826,00.htm

Now I think LCD is here to stay for a very long time and has an edge over the other technologies... Go Samsung go!!!keep an open mind my friend. LCD, plasma, ect is ever evolving. BI/IR is a thing of the past with plasma as will banding, flashlighting, clouding, with LCD's. By the way have you given it much though what exactly the acorynym LCD signifies? Technology is so dynamic it would serve us all to keep an open mind and heart to which this 'toy' may entertains us.

[lipcrkr]

I mean street price a month or two after release. 52" could street closer to $3k than $4k. Anyone can jump on this offer :p

I'm sorry, but i really think you are confused by the models. You're saying the 52" 81 series LED will street around $3K after a month or two? Could you please post a pic of the crack pipe you're smokin'?

[westa6969]

I mean street price a month or two after release. 52" could street closer to $3k than $4k. Anyone can jump on this offer :p
Me thinks we've gone from Speculation to Fantasy Island of wishful thinking.

Supply and Demand rule and this panel will have limited channels of distribution and provided it delivers on it's potential speculation it's pricing will follow a similar pattern of the the 57" which has little competition. Samsung used Mag stores and higher end channels for months in it's intial release and pricing moved very little for it's first six months and it was not new tech it was new SIZE tech.

Competition in a particular panel drives pricing unless one assumes Samsung is moronic and doesn't understand it's own marketing and distribution channels which would be very foolish. Yes, they will be price much more reasonable than a similar Sony may with LED but very unlikely it will fall within the range of the run of the mill competition at the 52" size unless it's results in PQ are problematic. They have next to zero competition in LED BL units and would you lower the price if you didn't have to? Hell no! Anyone following these debuts for 3 years or more know the pricing patterns and if this delivers it has little competition to drive it's pricing to levels you suggest unless it arrives defective - unlikely since it's earlier Euro version has been named display of the Year.

Not meant as an attack but I must agree with Lipcrkr beaches that we have no such pricing history to match your prediction especially when competition is lacking - just go view the pricing history of the Samsung DLP's where often just the fact an identical DLP has cosmetic differences to look better and Samsung would charge $300-$800 for a cosmetic look and here we're talking way beyond cosmetics provided the tech is innovative as speculated. We're the winners but I wouldn't expect a 52" to come close to $3K until perhaps at least 6 months and only in they are produced in quantity.

To give an example of how this has worked - the original Sony Bravia LCD's were in short supply for months initially and BB had some exclusive distribution and the supply was so limited BB sold the Bravia's for a few months ABOVE MSRP - Yes they can actually sell above MSRP and BB did when they had a limited distribution. The good news is Samsung pricing spreads have never reached those of Sony.:D

[Jon V]

Quote:
This post is a prime example why opinions are like a**holes, every one has one
[/QUOTE]

I was just thinking how 'anticipation' threads are like a**holes - both pass a lot of crap.

I just hope an 81 materializes sometime soon. It sounds like a good solution for my family room, i think, but it's hard to tell from all these guesses.

[kirth]

I mean street price a month or two after release. 52" could street closer to $3k than $4k. Anyone can jump on this offer :p


White glove service would be nice, but front-door delivery will be acceptable. Thanks for the TV.

[007craft]

OMG. Im tired of all that damn money sitting in my bank account. I could be enjoying a whole bunch of crap I would waste my money on but im holding out for this damn tv. Its june any day now, which would mark 1 month untill release, and we still know nothing new yet. Im very frustraited. I just want my new TV.

[wtr_wkr]

I'll buy you a free 52" 81 series if it won't street under $4k after release...
You da man!!!! This is a win win. Either <$4k or free!!!

PS, Almost all of us hope you are right.

[Arcona]

Any know the Sharp and Philips model names? They got a thread here?

I got some links, but cant post them until I made 5 posts :P

Both Sharp and LG-Philips claim 1.000.000:1

Google "Mega-Contrast" brings up sharp

[studdad]

Any know the Sharp and Philips model names? They got a thread here?

I got some links, but cant post them until I made 5 posts :P

Both Sharp and LG-Philips claim 1.000.000:1

Google "Mega-Contrast" brings up sharp

1MIL:1, FOR WHAT??? AND HOW LONG UNTIL ANTICIPATED SHIP?

[bigjohns1997SS]

Not around $3K. More like $3499. Worst case $3999. At the end of 2007 LED BLU will cost only 20% more than CCFL equivalent, so prices will come down really fast.


Put down the crack and walk away. :p

[Arcona]

1MIL:1, FOR WHAT??? AND HOW LONG UNTIL ANTICIPATED SHIP?

1 mil contrast,
LG.Philips are shipping july. Sharp june I think

links
Sharp 37" 1,000,000:1 (http://www.avforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=460004)
LG.Philips demos 47-inch 1,000,000:1 (http://www.engadgethd.com/2007/02/05/lg-philips-demos-47-inch-led-backlit-lcd-with-1-000-000/)

[mike123abc]

If there are indeed 3-4 companies working on local dimming LED technology for release this year, that would explain the complete silence from Samsung. No need to demonstrate and talk about the exact technology being used until release time. Giving away exactly what features one is going to have with pricing would give your competitors time to make modifications to their sets.

One company says they are going to use X by Y number of LEDs in the backlight, the next company quickly adds a few more... One says they have 256 levels of backlight dimming, the next company goes to 512. They want the competition to be so far along that changing the specs would be too cost prohibitive at the last minute.

[mike123abc]

In thinking about features that could differentiate LED BLU LCDs:

1. The number of distinct lighting points X x Y

2. The number of levels of brightness

3. The color purity of the backlight LEDs

4. Perhaps multiple LEDs/point. You could have red/green/blue LEDs each independently adjustable. Perhaps even more with 5 LEDs like 5 wavelet CCFL claim with individually dimmable colors. This would be fantastic, you could generate a bright red without having color leaking in from blue/green. You could more closely match the exact tint of red with multiple red shade LEDs. Of course eventually you would converge towards an LED display with an LCD cover given enough LED density.

[DaViet]

Not around $3K. More like $3499. Worst case $3999. At the end of 2007 LED BLU will cost only 20% more than CCFL equivalent, so prices will come down really fast.
I'll be waiting for my 52" set.

[kano1977]

I am good friends with a store manger at circuity city and he told me the 81 series the 46 inche will go for 3600 at the circuit city stores

[smaybee]

I am good friends with a store manger at circuity city and he told me the 81 series the 46 inche will go for 3600 at the circuit city stores

Can you get him to tell you when he will have them in stock? :)

[studdad]

I am good friends with a store manger at circuity city and he told me the 81 series the 46 inche will go for 3600 at the circuit city stores

and what the 52" will sell for?

[DaViet]

My local CC didn't even carry the 5265's. So CC is out for me.

[studdad]

My local CC didn't even carry the 5265's. So CC is out for me.

Yeah, i have the same problem.....but they can order it in for you, lol. Axmode gave me some good advice on bargaining with them, and when I decide to purchase, I will do it, but I am not sure how much they will be willing to bargain on a set they don't normally carry (especially if they think it may be returned). We will just have to see. I live in Spokane, not a metropolis, but still an average size Western city, so I don't know why they wouldn't carry the larger sets.

[vinnie97]

so under 4 grand for the 46 incher online if the above Circuit City retail price is to be believed...I'm tempted to cancel my Amazon order for the LNT4665F (not due to ship until June 4 anyway)....

[foxdie]

I am good friends with a store manger at circuity city and he told me the 81 series the 46 inche will go for 3600 at the circuit city stores


That store manager is blowing smoke... Samsung reps dont even have hard details about the prices or release dates yet.

[Shayne2]

SAMSUNG Shows at SID 2007: 70" 120 Hz Full-HD LCD, Flexible Color E-paper Display and 40" LED-backlit "Display of Year"

http://www.samsung.com/PressCenter/PressRelease/PressRelease.asp?seq=20070519_0000347719#

[darkjedi]

Samsung is selling a new M81 LCD panel here in Brazil:

http://www.fastshop.com.br/product.aspx?src=home&product_id=SGLN40M81BXXAZ&dept_id=531
1080p Full HD (Pronto para TV Digital).
Super Clear Panel.
DNIe™ - Melhor qualidade de Imagem.
Contraste Dinâmico: 15.000:1.
Brilho 550 cd / m2.
Resolução do painel 1920 (H) x 1080 (V).
Tempo de reposta: 8ms.
Wide Color Enhancer.
Movie Plus.
Ângulo de Visão de 178º.
Suporte de Mesa giratório.
10W + 10W RMS de Potência de Áudio.
SRS Tru Surround XT.
Trinorma (Pal-M, Pal-N, NTSC).
Durabilidade 60.000 horas.
Conexões

3 Entradas HDMI (2 traseiras, 1 lateral).
1 Entrada RGB para PC.
2 Entradas Vídeo Componente.
2 Entrada A/V (Lateral e Traseira).
1 Entrada S-Vídeo (Lateral).
1 Saída de áudio analógico.
1 Saída para fones de ouvido.
1 Saída de Áudio Digital Óptica.
1 RS232C (apenas para serviço).

No LED Backlight.

[darkjedi]

Interesting. Now, what that has to do with LN-T*81F series?I initially thought it was the same TV. They have the same piano bezel, same "Super Clear" glossy Panel, same "81". My mistake.

[bplewis24]

OMG. Im tired of all that damn money sitting in my bank account.

Thought I'd never hear somebody say those words. This anticipation thread is driving you all MAD!

I can't say that I blame ya though. I have a target date to buy a new 46-50" flat panel by September 07. I move into my newly built house then. I want the 81 series to have been out for a few months by then so that the street price drops a few hundred.

Brandon

[Flash01]

That store manager is blowing smoke... Samsung reps dont even have hard details about the prices or release dates yet.

Well this may or may not be true IMHO. Everything is not black and white. Most Samsung reps might not know the hard details but it's quite possible, a few weeks from *expected* launch, that a few do. Sales reps are not as concerned with end customers, press releases than they are pleasing distribution partners. It is not impossible that a distributor rep might ask for some pricing details to plan out their inventory. Information often trickle down to the public this way. You' be surprised how home realtors, secretaries or maintenance guys folks are usually the first to find out about trades and contracts in sports for example.

That being said, I'm not really adding much to this thread :)
I think 3600$ for the 46 inch 81 series might be plausible, depending on how Samsung wants to position this product. I can get the 4665 for 2500 in Canadian loonies. That's what, 2300 US? That would be 56% premium for LED backlight. Possible. (Here's to hoping)

On the other hand, this is new technology. Samsung does not have competitors yet. I'm guessing they will put it out at an entry price that is much higher than that. When LG / whoever comes up with equivalent products, they can slash down the price, they end up being first to market and fund their R&D. I've seen a few people state that the BOM from a LED panel could be similar to a CCFL panel. I could even guess that quite soon (< 2 years) the BOM from LED BLU panel could be lower than CCFL but there is more to pricing than BOM. Total cost of production needs to factor in R&D and machinery. (Here's to reality check)

IF the price was 3.6k for the 46 incher, would you have any issue picking it up right away? I think most of us here are early adopters and the LED BLU tech is not a new concept, but there's a lot of things that could go wrong with such a new product.

Cheers!

[Arcona]

just found a new pic og LG's panel
http://www.lcdpreview.com/2007/02/lg_1080p_47_led_backlit_lcd.html

[snowstorm81]

the closest to official information about 81-series you could get for the moment is this guy who works for Samsung US
linked to the forum where he talks abou the new lcd (user Dome215):
http://www.phantasytour.com/phish/boards_thread.cgi?threadID=1315304&page=3

seems like we have to wait until late september, could be a struggle...

cites:
"wait until Samsung's LED engine LCDs come out. 100,000:1 contrast+incredible response time+114% of the NTSC color gammet = plasmas dunzo.
hitting stores late Q3 early Q4."

"as for pricing and whatnot, they (Samsung) hasn't passed down that much information. we expect the the 40" models to retail for about 4k, give or take.

we're using a concept called local dimming where the back of the set is composed of an array for RGB LED lights, not florescent or CCFL bulbs that all previous LCDs use. The array is broken up into about 64 different individually controlled segments, allowing the set to have them on, off, or dimmed. basically you have have your brightest whites next to your darkest blacks. i saw the pre production model a few months ago. its ****ing incredible."

"yup. although last time i checked it was 100,000:1. when prices come down, these sets will be the death of plasmas. I saw it side by side with our new 1080p plasmas coming out in august. the plasmas looked INCREDIBLE, but the LED LCD beat it hands down in everything...black levels, response time, motion...its amazing."

[Magic(tm)]

Sounds to me like a fanboy wish nothing more. I just read what else he wrote in that thread and HOW. To me no doubt that guy is just speculating and offering he dream view.

Its just funny would every time something new comes out it already fixed ALL the problems leaving nothing to wish for until real reviews come out. The Sharp D92 looks perfect on Paper but even if it is a great LCD and the Black are a hugh step forward its not even near to a perfect LCD or HDTV as reviews like Cnet showed. Plasma however will propably really get down in production but as long as their production cost for the big companies like Panasonic are okay they will survive. Just my 2 cents.

[area51nz]

just picked up the 40" R81 yesterday, fantastic television, I will watch for a week then post back my comments. cost $3500 New Zealand Dollars.

[quyen51]

Philips has the 42 and 47 LED sets out in June.

http://www.engadgethd.com/2007/05/24/philips-42-47-and-52-inch-ambilight-lcds-go-1080p-120hz-l/

[Daniel Tonks]

As has been pointed out elsewhere, those Philips sets aren't LED backlit screens. They have LED-based Ambilight backlighting (the lights that shine on the wall).

[xb1032]

As has been pointed out elsewhere, those Philips sets aren't LED backlit screens. They have LED-based Ambilight backlighting (the lights that shine on the wall).

Yea and it's also $3600 for a 47" model from Phillips with likely a weak contrast ratio of 10k or at most 15k:1 dynamic. So why people think the 52" 81 series with a 50k or 100k:1 CR is going to have an MSRP of $4k is just wishful thinking. And like Westa said, if these models are in limited production there will be a premium to pay at least at first.

[SED <--- Rules]

This is just my opinion on the pricing of the 52" 81s:

$6k-$5.5k MSRP, but $5k-$4.5k street price. Somewhere around there.. :)

I'm still waiting for these tvs....

[rbarg]

the closest to official information about 81-series you could get for the moment is this guy who works for Samsung US
linked to the forum where he talks abou the new lcd (user Dome215):
http://www.phantasytour.com/phish/boards_thread.cgi?threadID=1315304&page=3

seems like we have to wait until late september, could be a struggle...

cites:
"wait until Samsung's LED engine LCDs come out. 100,000:1 contrast+incredible response time+114% of the NTSC color gammet = plasmas dunzo.
hitting stores late Q3 early Q4."

"as for pricing and whatnot, they (Samsung) hasn't passed down that much information. we expect the the 40" models to retail for about 4k, give or take.

we're using a concept called local dimming where the back of the set is composed of an array for RGB LED lights, not florescent or CCFL bulbs that all previous LCDs use. The array is broken up into about 64 different individually controlled segments, allowing the set to have them on, off, or dimmed. basically you have have your brightest whites next to your darkest blacks. i saw the pre production model a few months ago. its ****ing incredible."

"yup. although last time i checked it was 100,000:1. when prices come down, these sets will be the death of plasmas. I saw it side by side with our new 1080p plasmas coming out in august. the plasmas looked INCREDIBLE, but the LED LCD beat it hands down in everything...black levels, response time, motion...its amazing."

This could be anybody - maybe someone who just wants to sound important. Co

[snowstorm81]

LED Expo takes place this week in Korea - the holy land of electronics!
http://www.ledexpo.com/eng/main.asp

This must be the place for Samsung to reveal som info about their new sets

Noticed this nice presentation from Samsung about LED BLU in LCD's
http://www.ledexpo.com/LEDBLU_samsung-HunJooHahm.PDF

[Arcona]

I have a feeling that the local dimmed LED panels will be delayed till Q4, and they will release some panels with normal LED backlights :\
Like Philips...
http://www.engadgethd.com/2007/05/24/philips-42-47-and-52-inch-ambilight-lcds-go-1080p-120hz-l/
Those are not local dimmed I bet.

[Riverside_Guy]

Based on my 92 series LCD, I'm NOT convinced we need "local dimming" for the purpose of REDUCING the backlight to shadow areas. I happen to think that an ability to slightly INCREASE the backlight to shadow areas is better for us.

The problem is much like software for still imaging used to be. It was very complex to essentially mask highlights so one could open up the shadows a tad without blowing things out (in could be done, but took a lot of work to accomplish). That got fixed a few years ago with the Shadow/Highlight control in Photoshop.One COULD open up shadows without affecting mid and high tones.

OTOH, we're also getting into the territory of artistic choice. After seeing the "black crush" on my LCD, I was a lot more sensitized to it. The last three films I saw in theaters had me muttering to myself "wow, all the blacks are totally crushed."

The point is that my preference is enough control in MY hands that I can set it any way I like. At this point, that does NOT exist.

[Flash01]

LED Expo takes place this week in Korea - the holy land of electronics!

This must be the place for Samsung to reveal som info about their new sets

Noticed this nice presentation from Samsung about LED BLU in LCD's


Thanks for the links. I've found the presentation very informative. I've been following this tech for a while but I've learned a few things. And a few things I guess I should have figured myself such as that LED BLU will actually eliminate the need for color filters.

LED BLU tech seems to be the way to go, and I think the timeframe will be much shorter than a lot of us anticipate because once a company comes out with this technology, others will have to follow suit or lose their market share. I'm not sure however that the 81 series will be such a hit. It may as well though I've been burned with brand new technology before so I prefer to be skeptical at first.

[mark_1080p]

I happen to think that an ability to slightly INCREASE the backlight to shadow areas is better for us.

... in Photoshop.One COULD open up shadows without affecting mid and high tones.

OTOH, we're also getting into the territory of artistic choice. After seeing the "black crush" on my LCD, I was a lot more sensitized to it. The last three films I saw in theaters had me muttering to myself "wow, all the blacks are totally crushed."

The point is that my preference is enough control in MY hands that I can set it any way I like. At this point, that does NOT exist.
I see your point. I would respond that local dimming is beneficial when the LCD cannot block enough light when the video demands black. Then a variable light source can make up for the deficiency.

The problem with shadow detail is in maintaining the contrast ratio at low grey levels, where the black floor of the display can eat into that ratio. But lower the black floor by dimming and you increase the contrast ratio by opening up the crystals more than you ordinarily would since the backlight is dimmed. In other words, by local dimming the backlight you are able to use the full dynamic range of the liquid crystal "shutter" and would be able to have lots of shadow detail. That is how I imagine it working, we shall see how it actually performs.

Proper implementation would require IMO lots of processing power, analyze areas on the screen to see if they meet criteria for dimming, then adjusting the backlight down and opening up the crystals to display the highlights.

On black crush, are you mixing display crush with sensor crush? Film, CCD will crush blacks that only the human eye can resolve. That is not the black crush we normally think of when viewing LCD's. The LCD itself introduces black crush if its gamma is adjusted at low IRE to make up for poor black levels. But film and video black crush that shows up on any display, including CRT. The sensors simply cannot match the human eye's dynamic range, which is after all why we use "fill flash" in photography.

Your solution of bringing up levels above the black point of the display, essentially decreasing the dynamic range of the signal to fit into the range of the display, would enhance shadow detail but would decrease contrast ratio. That is not a good trade-off, CR is very important.

[wtfer]

I have a feeling that the local dimmed LED panels will be delayed till Q4, and they will release some panels with normal LED backlights :\
Like Philips...
http://www.engadgethd.com/2007/05/24/philips-42-47-and-52-inch-ambilight-lcds-go-1080p-120hz-l/
Those are not local dimmed I bet.

That actually doesn't look too bad.
The TV design is one of the ugliest I ever seen, but the price for a 120Hz "LED" LCD isn't bad. I wonder what the contrast is.

EDIT:
nevermind just read few pages back it's not backlit LED.
Besides Philips always makes lousy TV's!

[spincut]

I had a loss of black detail on my Sony (well, i had black corrector on, even low, can cause that), alot of the time on suits and stuf, so i raised gama (and brightness a little) to compensate, that seemed to fix it not cause it....unless....what's "IRE"??

[kano1977]

they dont get a price out soon i am taking my money and going to vegas

[studdad]

they dont get a price out soon i am taking my money and going to vegas

looks like you'll be going to vegas, lol

[lipcrkr]

the closest to official information about 81-series you could get for the moment is this guy who works for Samsung US
linked to the forum where he talks abou the new lcd (user Dome215):
http://www.phantasytour.com/phish/boards_thread.cgi?threadID=1315304&page=3

seems like we have to wait until late september, could be a struggle...

cites:
"wait until Samsung's LED engine LCDs come out. 100,000:1 contrast+incredible response time+114% of the NTSC color gammet = plasmas dunzo.
hitting stores late Q3 early Q4."

"as for pricing and whatnot, they (Samsung) hasn't passed down that much information. we expect the the 40" models to retail for about 4k, give or take.

we're using a concept called local dimming where the back of the set is composed of an array for RGB LED lights, not florescent or CCFL bulbs that all previous LCDs use. The array is broken up into about 64 different individually controlled segments, allowing the set to have them on, off, or dimmed. basically you have have your brightest whites next to your darkest blacks. i saw the pre production model a few months ago. its ****ing incredible."

"yup. although last time i checked it was 100,000:1. when prices come down, these sets will be the death of plasmas. I saw it side by side with our new 1080p plasmas coming out in august. the plasmas looked INCREDIBLE, but the LED LCD beat it hands down in everything...black levels, response time, motion...its amazing."

Dome is nothing but an LCD fanboy. I love where he says "we're using", as if he's with Samsung. The 81 series may or may not be better than the crap they are putting out now but a one billion CR means squat if it crushes blacks resulting in loss of shadow detail. I noticed "fanboy" doesn't mention "shadow detail" or "greyscale".

[studdad]

so for those of us who may not be able to afford the 81, does anyone have any input on the 71? I would like to get the 81, but who knows, it may be just too much. I have about 3K to spend, maybe a little more, and i would like a 52". I know the 81 would start out much higher than this, but after a few months it may come down to that level? Where does everyone think the 71 would start? I really like the 65 series, but with the HDMI issues and the 71 "supposedly" being better with motion blur (yes, I know it will have a faster response time and 120hz, but who knows what that will really mean with motion blur in sports), I would at least like to get the 71, and maybe the 81 if it comes down to my price level, and has no major problems.

[lipcrkr]

so for those of us who may not be able to afford the 81, does anyone have any input on the 71? I would like to get the 81, but who knows, it may be just too much. I have about 3K to spend, maybe a little more, and i would like a 52". I know the 81 would start out much higher than this, but after a few months it may come down to that level? Where does everyone think the 71 would start? I really like the 65 series, but with the HDMI issues and the 71 "supposedly" being better with motion blur (yes, I know it will have a faster response time and 120hz, but who knows what that will really mean with motion blur in sports), I would at least like to get the 71, and maybe the 81 if it comes down to my price level, and has no major problems.

The new Toshiba 52LX177 has an MSRP of $4K and the new overpriced Mitsubishi 52" diamond series over $5K so i would expect the 71 series to MSRP in the mid $4K range. I'm sure Mr. Mckracken will come in here and say the 52" 71 series will MSRP at $1799 and in 2 months it will drop to $899.

[mark_1080p]

crkr, you're crk'n me up ... :D

Mits thinks using the word diamond can hold their prices at that level?
It ain't gonna work ...
Agree on black crush but my 4661 has dialed most of it out now, but yea there is residual.

[lipcrkr]

crkr, you're crk'n me up ... :D

Mits thinks using the word diamond can hold their prices at that level?
It ain't gonna work ...
Agree on black crush but my 4661 has dialed most of it out now, but yea there is residual.


Thanx, i'll be appearing at the L.A.Comedy Store for a 2 night engagement next week.
Actually, in the store at least, i feel the 61 series is the better display over the 65 series. I've gotten the 4661 to look as good as the Sharp as far as blacks and good shadow detail. The 65 series, IMO, is a disaster. The problem in my case is a want something over 50". On my to do list is the Toshiba LX177, as well as the 71/81 series. My other to do was the Panny 1080p plasma but IMO it's just too dull, didn't pop. I'm seriously considering the new Sony XBR5 SXRD, it looks gorgeous. I love the SXRD's blacks and shadow detail, fast response time, and the new one does the 1.3, 120hz, and all the other obligitory features.
Personally, i think Mitsubishi is stark raving mad, like Mr. Mckracken.

[vinnie97]

The 65 series, IMO, is a disaster.
Ugh, you're making me question my Amazon purchase, which should ship in just a few days. :eek:

[lipcrkr]

Ugh, you're making me question my Amazon purchase, which should ship in just a few days. :eek:

What i mean by disaster is the 65 series is next to impossible to calibrate in store. You might want to check out the calibration thread for home use. The 65 series will test your patience to get it just right with the settings to dial out the pillars and get a decent CR without crushing blacks.

[lipcrkr]

Ugh, you're making me question my Amazon purchase, which should ship in just a few days. :eek:

What i mean by disaster is the 65 series is next to impossible to calibrate in store. You might want to check out the calibration thread for home use. The 65 series will test your patience to get it just right with the settings to dial out the pillars and get a decent CR without crushing blacks.

[vinnie97]

Yea, couple that with a fairly bright room (perpendicular windows!) and I guess I'll be having adventures in TV calibration, eh? :p I figured it was a black crush versus versus contrast ratio plus reflectivity challenge that would make one question their sanity.

I've got the local asylum's # on hand when I reach that point.

[bplewis24]

Dome is nothing but an LCD fanboy. I love where he says "we're using", as if he's with Samsung.

The original poster says that Dome claims to work for Samsung U.S., so that may be why. No idea if he's credible or not, just pointing that out.

I'm seriously considering the new Sony XBR5 SXRD, it looks gorgeous. I love the SXRD's blacks and shadow detail, fast response time, and the new one does the 1.3, 120hz, and all the other obligitory features.
Personally, i think Mitsubishi is stark raving mad, like Mr. Mckracken.

Can you point me in the direction of where you've seen these sets reviewed or talked about?

Brandon

[wtr_wkr]

... stark raving mad, like Mr. Mckracken.
Hey, back off on the muck racker. He's going to give me an 81 for free.

The next gen of Syntax with 120Hz & LED should be of interest. They've been using the best chips. If they combine that with a top end panel, it could be a winner.

[studdad]

lmao, you guys are Mc Crackin me up

[valoidr]

so for those of us who may not be able to afford the 81, does anyone have any input on the 71? I would like to get the 81, but who knows, it may be just too much. I have about 3K to spend, maybe a little more, and i would like a 52". I know the 81 would start out much higher than this, but after a few months it may come down to that level? Where does everyone think the 71 would start? I really like the 65 series, but with the HDMI issues and the 71 "supposedly" being better with motion blur (yes, I know it will have a faster response time and 120hz, but who knows what that will really mean with motion blur in sports), I would at least like to get the 71, and maybe the 81 if it comes down to my price level, and has no major problems.just buy the new PIO 8g 50" due this month<$3k.

[studdad]

The new Toshiba 52LX177 has an MSRP of $4K and the new overpriced Mitsubishi 52" diamond series over $5K so i would expect the 71 series to MSRP in the mid $4K range. I'm sure Mr. Mckracken will come in here and say the 52" 71 series will MSRP at $1799 and in 2 months it will drop to $899.

I'll take 3 of those at $899, lol. Anyway, if it retails at about $4,600 then it should street down to about $3,000 in a few months. The 5265 came out at $4,799 I think, and can be had for $3,000 now from a reputable on-line dealer. So.....hurry up and ship it already so I can wait out my few months.

[studdad]

Yea, couple that with a fairly bright room (perpendicular windows!) and I guess I'll be having adventures in TV calibration, eh? :p I figured it was a black crush versus versus contrast ratio plus reflectivity challenge that would make one question their sanity.

I've got the local asylum's # on hand when I reach that point.

From pics I have seen, the bright room wont kill ya too much, it is the windows that sit directly across from the tv that are the biggy.

[studdad]

just buy the new PIO 8g 50" due this month<$3k.

Pioneer makes one nice plasma, but my mind is set on lcd. I am away at work during the day, but the family, wife, etc., are home, and they would kill me if the tv was washed out, or if we got burn in.

[SharpOne]

The original poster says that Dome claims to work for Samsung U.S., so that may be why. No idea if he's credible or not, just pointing that out.



Can you point me in the direction of where you've seen these sets reviewed or talked about?

Brandon

LipCrkr,

Can you answer Brandon's question. I'm interested in hearing about these sets as well.

Also, I completely agree with the comments on the new Mitsubishis coming out. The price seems outta control....like Sony pricing. As a matter of fact if the Sony guys see Mitsubishi asking that much the XBR4's will require $5K, plus an organ donation...and not the one from your church either.

But either way it would be good if the new Mitsus, Toshibas, Sonys and Samsungs would come out already. I'm getting tired of waiting. Then worst case if they are all as shi*** and problem ridden as some of the current models seem to be, at least the old models will cost less.

If that 52XBR3 keeps dropping in price, I might find myself relaxing in front of one soon.

[studdad]

LipCrkr,

Can you answer Brandon's question. I'm interested in hearing about these sets as well.

Also, I completely agree with the comments on the new Mitsubishis coming out. The price seems outta control....like Sony pricing. As a matter of fact if the Sony guys see Mitsubishi asking that much the XBR4's will require $5K, plus an organ donation...and not the one from your church either.

But either way it would be good if the new Mitsus, Toshibas, Sonys and Samsungs would come out already. I'm getting tired of waiting. Then worst case if they are all as shi*** and problem ridden as some of the current models seem to be, at least the old models will cost less.

If that 52XBR3 keeps dropping in price, I might find myself relaxing in front of one soon.

yeah, but the xbr3 has the clouding/mura problems. If it was problem free, I would probably buy it as well,,,,,,well, unless the samsung was problem free, lol.

[valoidr]

Pioneer makes one nice plasma, but my mind is set on lcd. I am away at work during the day, but the family, wife, etc., are home, and they would kill me if the tv was washed out, or if we got burn in. you may want to catch up on what[tech.] is available out there now - IR/BI is old school unless like anything else including LCD "abuse it - lose it"

[studdad]

you may want to catch up on what[tech.] is available out there now - IR/BI is old school unless like anything else including LCD "abuse it - lose it"

I have checked up on the available technology, and from the complaints I have read, that available technology does not completely erase or prevent the burnin. Although I try to watch as much as possible in HD/16:9, the majority of my viewing is still in SD. If Directv came through with their 150 channels of HD pledge, I would probably look at plasma as a viable option, but with so much still in SD, I don't want to risk blackbar burnin, and I hate zoom/stretch modes. So, if I am still looking around the beginning of the year, and D* has made good on their promise, then I may just take a gander.

[spincut]

whats funny is that by the time HD is that complete, plasmas probably will be overtaken by LCD in whatever advanced form its becoming (OLED or whatever).

In the mean time though i still need a suitable replacement for my 40" XBR2, and while everyone is speculating on the price point of the 50+ samsungs, i'm still wanting to know how much a 40" 71 or 81 would end up costing me, since i really was looking to do this in the couple months since my oppurtunity to replace my XBR may have a window.

[lipcrkr]

LipCrkr,

Can you answer Brandon's question. I'm interested in hearing about these sets as well.

Also, I completely agree with the comments on the new Mitsubishis coming out. The price seems outta control....like Sony pricing. As a matter of fact if the Sony guys see Mitsubishi asking that much the XBR4's will require $5K, plus an organ donation...and not the one from your church either.

But either way it would be good if the new Mitsus, Toshibas, Sonys and Samsungs would come out already. I'm getting tired of waiting. Then worst case if they are all as shi*** and problem ridden as some of the current models seem to be, at least the old models will cost less.

If that 52XBR3 keeps dropping in price, I might find myself relaxing in front of one soon.

Which sets are you asking me about?

[bplewis24]

Which sets are you asking me about?

The 2007 XBR lineup. I believe you've specifically mentioned the SXRD XBR 3's, but I'm also interested in the LCD XBR 4's.

I searched the "2007 Bravia Speculation" thread ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=801114 ) and got some info over there, but if there is anywhere else we can see what you've seen I'd appreciate the link.

Brandon

[Flash01]

LED Expo takes place this week in Korea - the holy land of electronics!
http://www.ledexpo.com/eng/main.asp

This must be the place for Samsung to reveal som info about their new sets

Noticed this nice presentation from Samsung about LED BLU in LCD's
http://www.ledexpo.com/LEDBLU_samsung-HunJooHahm.PDF

As a followup to this, I just received my new publication of IEEE's transactions on power electronics (Vol 22, No3. May 2007). It has a good paper on Sequential Color LED driving, reducing the need for Color filters. I really have to boink myself for not seeing this coming but removing the color filter allows for much better color output and efficiency (as reflected by most LED BLU panel specs). The article is rather technical and speaks mostly of electronic switchers (that's what I work in) but its still an interesting read.

The proposed technique seems to hint that a combination of burst and variable voltage has to be used to drive the LEDs to provide proper color reproduction. They also discuss LED bypass because most LED drivers I'm aware of drive at 20+ (usually Volts) and failure of one LED results in losing the entire row unless you use bypass switches.

Very interesting, although it kinda makes me nervous when I'm thinking I might be buying this panel when it comes out :)

[007craft]

I think this thread has strayed off topic. Too much debat/info about other brand LCds, plasmas, and new technology. I want to hear some disscusion on the topic at hand, the samsung 81 series (and 71 series). What happened with the korean lcd expo, did they make an appearance?

[Flash01]

I think this thread has strayed off topic. Too much debat/info about other brand LCds, plasmas, and new technology. I want to hear some disscusion on the topic at hand, the samsung 81 series (and 71 series). What happened with the korean lcd expo, did they make an appearance?

I think most of us would gladly do that if Samsung was to provide any hard facts on the set, that is beside what was released at CES. I'm gradually shifting toward those who say that this set may be way out of price range since, as we near the expected release, not much has been published on these sets by Samsung. Maybe they want to keep things secret until a grand release and surprise us all but I'm thinking this is not a mainstream product and have not assigned a lot of press/marketing people to it.

That being said, I think most of us have talked over and over again about what these sets may or may not do, compare them to other TVs because quite frankly, we don't have much from Samsung (I'm not blaming them...) Thus we anticipate by speculating.

[kano1977]

anyday now

[taurus2007]

anyday now

Tick, tick, tick.....

[kano1977]

i check this thread 30 times a day hoping i will find trhe priced posted its driving me insane lol

[mchamblissII]

i check this thread 30 times a day hoping i will find trhe priced posted its driving me insane lol


Yep same here :( I wanted to get the 65 but I wanted to wait for the 71/81. Man my money is burning a hole inside my pants.

[chivas-1]

I as well have been waiting........was going to get the 52" 65 but am holding out for 71/81........at this rate, it seems like I won't get my LCD until next year.......c'mon Sammy......get the freakin thing out there....

[lipcrkr]

The 2007 XBR lineup. I believe you've specifically mentioned the SXRD XBR 3's, but I'm also interested in the LCD XBR 4's.

I searched the "2007 Bravia Speculation" thread ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=801114 ) and got some info over there, but if there is anywhere else we can see what you've seen I'd appreciate the link.

Brandon

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=82520

[lipcrkr]

I as well have been waiting........was going to get the 52" 65 but am holding out for 71/81........at this rate, it seems like I won't get my LCD until next year.......c'mon Sammy......get the freakin thing out there....

While everyone is waiting, here is an excellent read from HD Guru. One of my peeves about the 65 series is shadow detail and IMO the lack thereof. Some people are still a little confused about black level, greyscale, shadow detail etc. and how it can be subtle but substantial at the same time.
http://hdguru.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/05/tips-on-buying-a-new-flat-panel-tv.pdf

[oldcband]

I'm seriously considering the new Sony XBR5 SXRD, it looks gorgeous.

To go with the other 2,650 you've seriously considered? When you finally decide you know its going to be a disaster. Its in the stars. ;)

[Sheldon111]

I think most of us would gladly do that if Samsung was to provide any hard facts on the set, that is beside what was released at CES. I'm gradually shifting toward those who say that this set may be way out of price range since, as we near the expected release, not much has been published on these sets by Samsung. Maybe they want to keep things secret until a grand release and surprise us all but I'm thinking this is not a mainstream product and have not assigned a lot of press/marketing people to it.

That being said, I think most of us have talked over and over again about what these sets may or may not do, compare them to other TVs because quite frankly, we don't have much from Samsung (I'm not blaming them...) Thus we anticipate by speculating.


I spoke with a rep at Samsung Canada, he said that Samsung has two release dates a year in Canada, April and August. He said likely the sets will come out in the first two weeks in August, and they don't have details to release since they are in the final stages of production and that most likely we'll hear more in July.

[mark_1080p]

While everyone is waiting, here is an excellent read from HD Guru. One of my peeves about the 65 series is shadow detail and IMO the lack thereof. Some people are still a little confused about black level, greyscale, shadow detail etc. and how it can be subtle but substantial at the same time.
http://hdguru.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/05/tips-on-buying-a-new-flat-panel-tv.pdf
That is a very nice file, but what really makes it is the link within to the government NIST site at

http://www.fpd.nist.gov

I downloaded the 1920x1080 test pattern folder (74 MB) which has all kinds of patterns, which can be loaded onto a USB stick and displayed on the 61 and 65 series Sammy. This is a must have for any 1920x1080 display. Thanks for the info.

[Flash01]

I spoke with a rep at Samsung Canada, he said that Samsung has two release dates a year in Canada, April and August. He said likely the sets will come out in the first two weeks in August, and they don't have details to release since they are in the final stages of production and that most likely we'll hear more in July.

That sounds plausible. I know that their mobile phone release seem to fit to that, at least regarding their latest flagship releases (D900 last august, U600 this april). They did turn out the 61/65 panels earlier than April now did they?! (Dang has it been only two months since the 65/61 release?)

If Costco Canada had the 4665 I'd prolly buy it and wait the 90 return period to see what happens with this set... I guess I'm still hoping I'll be able to afford the 4681 and that it won't come with major shortcomings.

[studdad]

Saw the new sammy 71 and 81 today, amazing. Got em at BB for $2,400 and $2,900 respectively in the 52" screen.........damn.......I'm still high from that pain medication they gave me before my colonoscopy today......nevermind

[lipcrkr]

Saw the new sammy 71 and 81 today, amazing. Got em at BB for $2,400 and $2,900 respectively in the 52" screen.........damn.......I'm still high from that pain medication they gave me before my colonoscopy today......nevermind


Was the colonoscopy done using LED or CCFL backlight? Was there any banding or clouds? How was the shadow detail?

[k-y]

Saw the new sammy 71 and 81 today, amazing. Got em at BB for $2,400 and $2,900 respectively in the 52" screen.........damn.......I'm still high from that pain medication they gave me before my colonoscopy today......nevermind

Which BB did you check?

I'll check my BB in Kirkland/Bellevue later today/weekend.

[westa6969]

Saw the new sammy 71 and 81 today, amazing. Got em at BB for $2,400 and $2,900 respectively in the 52" screen.........damn.......I'm still high from that pain medication they gave me before my colonoscopy today......nevermind
Are you certain you weren't on Demorral when viewing and posting those dreamy prices? ;)

[taurus2007]

I think the doc gave him the wrong medication. All he sees now is nothing but clouds...

[studdad]

Was the colonoscopy done using LED or CCFL backlight? Was there any banding or clouds? How was the shadow detail?

ROFLMAO, sorry guys, they gave me some good IV drugs. Was totally out during the whole thing, and have been loopy all day. Don't remember much except my wife driving me home. My first time, and must have been a good DR. cause my rear end doesnt hurt. But enough about that. I felt like giving everyone a good laugh,,,,but a little concerned about that one guy that is gonna check his CC and BB this weekend, lol.

[studdad]

I as well have been waiting........was going to get the 52" 65 but am holding out for 71/81........at this rate, it seems like I won't get my LCD until next year.......c'mon Sammy......get the freakin thing out there....

Same here. Hoping the 71 will live up to the hype. My biggest concern is the motion blur. I watch a lot of sports and if the 71 is better than the 65 at motion blur, I will buy it just in time for Football Season (well, the way it is going, it may be Football Season 08). If the motion blur is not helped, then I will save some money and buy a discounted 5265 (unless of course, the 81 wont break the bank and has superior motion handling).

[k-y]

ROFLMAO, sorry guys, they gave me some good IV drugs. Was totally out during the whole thing, and have been loopy all day. Don't remember much except my wife driving me home. My first time, and must have been a good DR. cause my rear end doesnt hurt. But enough about that. I felt like giving everyone a good laugh,,,,but a little concerned about that one guy that is gonna check his CC and BB this weekend, lol.Great. LOL and joke's on me. Thanks for nothing. Please don't waste any more of our time.

[lipcrkr]

Great. LOL and joke's on me. Thanks for nothing. Please don't waste any more of our time.

Well, call Samsung and tell them to hurry up. This is what happens when anticipators in an anticipation thread are all anticipated out.

[mike123abc]

Well at least it looks like Samsung may be working out their HDMI 1.3 issues while we wait on the new lines. The 61/65/66 buyers are reporting new boards/firmware is fixing up pink/green flashes on HDMI. Some advantages on waiting. One just has to worry how many early problems these sets will have.

[AceBates]

One just has to worry how many early problems these sets will have.

And that unfortunately seems to be the common case these days. Invariably there will always be some bugs that need to be worked out, and in such a cut throat and fast moving market such as video there will be compatibility issues (i.e. the common PS3 HDMI issues that seem to plague non-Sony TVs) that will crop up. I'm just hoping that companies start focusing more on things being right the first time rather than accepting flaws and waiting til the next TV version or issuing multiple firmware updates.

Software started going through Beta testing starting YEARS ago. I'd be willing to wait an extra three months for a TV if I knew it had been shipped to "beta testers" and critiqued and abused for 3 months. At least we'd have a priori knowledge of issues to look for prior to the intial release (but they'd lose the hyped up marketing sales... ) My bet is that the 81 will have at least one Firmware revision before issues get worked out. The dimming algorithm/hardware is bound to have flaws.

Given the 71 is so similar to the 61/65 series, most people will probably have a great shot at getting a great set the first time around.

[lipcrkr]

And that unfortunately seems to be the common case these days. Invariably there will always be some bugs that need to be worked out, and in such a cut throat and fast moving market such as video there will be compatibility issues (i.e. the common PS3 HDMI issues that seem to plague non-Sony TVs) that will crop up. I'm just hoping that companies start focusing more on things being right the first time rather than accepting flaws and waiting til the next TV version or issuing multiple firmware updates.

Software started going through Beta testing starting YEARS ago. I'd be willing to wait an extra three months for a TV if I knew it had been shipped to "beta testers" and critiqued and abused for 3 months. At least we'd have a priori knowledge of issues to look for prior to the intial release (but they'd lose the hyped up marketing sales... ) My bet is that the 81 will have at least one Firmware revision before issues get worked out. The dimming algorithm/hardware is bound to have flaws.

Given the 71 is so similar to the 61/65 series, most people will probably have a great shot at getting a great set the first time around.

Me thinks Samsung dumped the 71 series.

[riverstorm]

If you really want to know the specs for the 81 series, just check out Samsung's Singapore site. You will find information on all of their new LCD models there. dubdubdub_dot_samsung_dot_com/sg

There are also small review of the new models on the Asia CNET site too.
asia_dot_cnet_dot_com

I discovered these sites a while back. I thought I would share with you what I found.

The prices on the asia cnet is way too high for the north american market. I'm thinking they will drop dramatically when they do come out in north america.

Since this is my first post. the board is not allowing me to posts URLS. Instead I typed an underscore and dot in the address. Just change them.

[snowstorm81]

If you really want to know the specs for the 81 series, just check out Samsung's Singapore site. You will find information on all of their new LCD models there. dubdubdub_dot_samsung_dot_com/sg

There are also small review of the new models on the Asia CNET site too.
asia_dot_cnet_dot_com

I discovered these sites a while back. I thought I would share with you what I found.

The prices on the asia cnet is way too high for the north american market. I'm thinking they will drop dramatically when they do come out in north america.

Since this is my first post. the board is not allowing me to posts URLS. Instead I typed an underscore and dot in the address. Just change them.

Sorry riverstorm - you ran into the same trap as me. These sets are eqvivalent to the 65/66 series in US and the 86/87 series in Europe. They are called 81 series in Asia and Australia.

The price seems way out though, you could get the 86 series (i.e. 65 series) for 2300$ in Europe. If it would have been the new led backlight LCD, the price given $4300 would have been pretty nice release price for a 46" or a 52"

[Arcona]

I'm gonna go for 40" 81 series for everyday television, and Sony VW50 projector for movies :p Even a 60" is tiny compared to projectors, hehe. 1900x1080 needs huge picture, 40" is too small for that.

[wtr_wkr]

...colonoscopy...
Just got back from BB. You're right, there were several sales guys willing to ... Nice to know BB is good for something.

[studdad]

Great. LOL and joke's on me. Thanks for nothing. Please don't waste any more of our time.

Lol, nothin personal, I just assumed everyone knew it was a joke, after all, we haven't even gotten price yet, much less accurate ship dates.

[riverstorm]

Sorry riverstorm - you ran into the same trap as me. These sets are eqvivalent to the 65/66 series in US and the 86/87 series in Europe. They are called 81 series in Asia and Australia.

The price seems way out though, you could get the 86 series (i.e. 65 series) for 2300$ in Europe. If it would have been the new led backlight LCD, the price given $4300 would have been pretty nice release price for a 46" or a 52"


Oh crap. Is this true?? Where did you get this info? I'm really disappointed. I thought we are close to getting it.

[studdad]

Just got back from BB. You're right, there were several sales guys willing to ... Nice to know BB is good for something.

roflmao

[studdad]

Me thinks Samsung dumped the 71 series.

Ok, is the joke on me now????? lol, they better not. Do you have any info to back that up, or just a gut feeling?

[SED <--- Rules]

To change gears a little bit here (meaning the recent posts), can someone tell me if the 81 series will support 24 fps? I know there is a good chance the 71 series will because of the 120Hz refresh rates, but what about the 81s? Obviously the 81's superior contrast ratio will be great for movies, but if it doesn't support 24 fps, then I will be very disappointed. 1080p/24 is the best way to go for movies!

[CadJoe]

Heard from a CompUSA rep that the 17" LCD monitor in the LED model was $1700. I see them selling ZERO, and the price dropping to a third of that quick.

[studdad]

Heard from a CompUSA rep that the 17" LCD monitor in the LED model was $1700. I see them selling ZERO, and the price dropping to a third of that quick.

hmmmmmm, if that is correct, I think it will be out of my range to start, but possibly in my range after Samsung gets a rude awakening (for the larger sets that is).

[lipcrkr]

Ok, is the joke on me now????? lol, they better not. Do you have any info to back that up, or just a gut feeling?

That's the problem, i don't have any info. Many of the sites that had CES 2007 info specifying a 71 series sandwiched between the 61/65 series and the 81 series are now leaving out the 71. From the very beginning i have questioned the purpose of a 71 series with 120hz as the major difference. One well known site mentions the 71 series, however, it's riddled with innacuracies like saying there is a 52" 61 series. There's plenty of info on the 81 series today, but nothing on the 71 series except the AVS and hi def forums, and the Jan. pres release. Wasn't the 71 series slated for July?

[studdad]

That's the problem, i don't have any info. Many of the sites that had CES 2007 info specifying a 71 series sandwiched between the 61/65 series and the 81 series are now leaving out the 71. From the very beginning i have questioned the purpose of a 71 series with 120hz as the major difference. One well known site mentions the 71 series, however, it's riddled with innacuracies like saying there is a 52" 61 series. There's plenty of info on the 81 series today, but nothing on the 71 series except the AVS and hi def forums, and the Jan. pres release. Wasn't the 71 series slated for July?

Yes, I think July. My only reason for considering the 71 over the 65 is motion blur. My only reason for considering it over the 81 is price. If they dump the 71, then I could go either way, just depends on the 81 price, how fast that higher price drops, and if it is relatively free of problems or not.

[taurus2007]

Yes, I think July. My only reason for considering the 71 over the 65 is motion blur. My only reason for considering it over the 81 is price. If they dump the 71, then I could go either way, just depends on the 81 price, how fast that higher price drops, and if it is relatively free of problems or not.

I get a feeling you will be on the fence again for a while longer because

1. You will be waiting for others to purchase the 81 (if 71 is a no go from Sammy) panel first and reporting back if there are problems with it.

2. You would wait for a while because according to others, Sammy only produces limited number of 81 panels so the price is probably not going to drop that much or that fast.

3. Price is out of reach for a few due to LED technology.

4. Other excuses...

[studdad]

I get a feeling you will be on the fence again for a while longer because

1. You will be waiting for others to purchase the 81 (if 71 is a no go from Sammy) panel first and reporting back if there are problems with it.

2. You would wait for a while because according to others, Sammy only produces limited number of 81 panels so the price is probably not going to drop that much or that fast.

3. Price is out of reach for a few due to LED technology.

4. Other excuses...

You may be correct. If the 71 is dropped, I would assume they would make more 81's. Just an assumption. If that happens, then the price should drop about 1/3 after a couple months, if it follows the pattern of other Samsung sets. So, if the 71 does come out then I will stick to my original plan. If not, then I will wait and see what the pricing on the 81 is going to be, and if there will be larger production, and or problems with the set. If the 81 comes out way overpriced, and the 71 is not produced, then I will probably go with the 65. And yes, I could make continued excuses, but I am pretty much set on having a new set by the beginning of Football Season (or a couple weeks in at the most if things are delayed).

[snowstorm81]

A teaser
http://aving.net/usa/news/default.asp?mode=read&c_num=35006&C_Code=09&mn_name=news

A Brightside technology clip from 2005, I suppose though the CCFL blacks has improved a lot since then...
http://video1.bit-tech.net/lotr.zip

For all who wonders whats going on inside the hull
http://www.iitk.ac.in/asid06/proceedings/papers/TC2_3-C.pdf
so the local dimming software was ready winter 2006, seems promising

In these thread it seems like the new LED set will lack of a full HD native panel
http://www.dailytech.com/Samsung+LCD+Boasts+1000001+Contrast+With+Local+Dimming+LED+B acklights/article6008.htm
Also Sony skipped full HD native panels in their new sets (called D3000 in Europe), but they features 100 Hz though (called motion flow...)

I'm only intrested in native 1920x1080 panel because I want to use the 40" LED BLU series as a primary PC-monitor. What happens when a 1360x768 panel shows a 1920x1080 resolution? For those who have a LCD-TFT monitor, what is their native panel resolutions?

[vtms]

For all who wonders whats going on inside the hull
http://www.iitk.ac.in/asid06/proceedings/papers/TC2_3-C.pdf
so the local dimming software was ready winter 2006, seems promising

Good paper. I highly recommend the last page, especially the comparison with respect to static contrast ratios between local and global dimming (uniform backlight, current LCDs). It ain't even close.

Finally, I've found out why Samsung called it "local dimming" instead of "IMLED" which is what Brightside called it. It turns out there's a difference between the two. In IMLED LCDs all LEDs are individually modulated (hence, IMLED) whereas locally-dimmed BLUs are divided into blocks of LEDs with each block (as opposed to each individual LED) getting the same brightness value. I think the paper mentions that implementing local dimming costs less than individual modulation and this is why we'll get locally-dimmed sets first.

Still, even this first generation LED modulation LCDs should be far superior to current LCDs. But I think I'll wait few years for true IMLED Sequential Color LCDs (2nd/3rd gen?).

[lipcrkr]

Good paper. I highly recommend the last page, especially the comparison with respect to static contrast ratios between local and global dimming (uniform backlight, current LCDs). It ain't even close.

Finally, I've found out why Samsung called it "local dimming" instead of "IMLED" which is what Brightside called it. It turns out there's a difference between the two. In IMLED LCDs all LEDs are individually modulated (hence, IMLED) whereas locally-dimmed BLUs are divided into blocks of LEDs with each block (as opposed to each individual LED) getting the same brightness value. I think the paper mentions that implementing local dimming costs less than individual modulation and this is why we'll get locally-dimmed sets first.

Still, even this first generation LED modulation LCDs should be far superior to current LCDs. But I think I'll wait few years for true IMLED Sequential Color LCDs (2nd/3rd gen?).

Nothing in there saying how the LED's will improve shadow detail. You can have the darkest black but how are the gradations within that black? I'd like to know what video processor they're using in conjunction with the LED light engine.

[wtfer]

Yes, I think July. My only reason for considering the 71 over the 65 is motion blur. My only reason for considering it over the 81 is price. If they dump the 71, then I could go either way, just depends on the 81 price, how fast that higher price drops, and if it is relatively free of problems or not.

I'm with you 100% on that.
I'm really hoping Samsung at least acknowledge the 71 series is still coming out.

[SED <--- Rules]

Still, even this first generation LED modulation LCDs should be far superior to current LCDs. But I think I'll wait few years for true IMLED Sequential Color LCDs (2nd/3rd gen?).

These upcoming LED LCDs will be good enough for me. I don't have an HDTV and the 81s are definatley on the top of my list. IMLED is something we could look forward to in the future. And to lipcrkr, I'm sure shadow detail will be great as well.

[AceBates]

Finally, I've found out why Samsung called it "local dimming" instead of "IMLED" which is what Brightside called it. It turns out there's a difference between the two. In IMLED LCDs all LEDs are individually modulated (hence, IMLED) whereas locally-dimmed BLUs are divided into blocks of LEDs with each block (as opposed to each individual LED) getting the same brightness value. I think the paper mentions that implementing local dimming costs less than individual modulation and this is why we'll get locally-dimmed sets first.

Still, even this first generation LED modulation LCDs should be far superior to current LCDs. But I think I'll wait few years for true IMLED Sequential Color LCDs (2nd/3rd gen?).

So it appears the Fry sales guy (or whoever it was) could have been partially correct and my assumption of 64 processing blocks may be the actual solution. There may be 64-256 separate dimmed regions of the TV, possibly each with their own gradients

[kano1977]

wtf is samsung problem who releases a price of a tv less then a month from launch its ****ing bullshit

[791]

To me it means that this set is going to be out of reach to most people, and will have limited availability. I've decided to pick up one of there other models and quit this game.

[z_toth]

Ive been lurking for sometime now and Ive been watching tensions escalate. I just hope some of you don't hurt yourselves over a TV .... this impatient waiting is much like Christmas years ago ... remember how many sleeps there were left? Well use those same "patience" skills you learned years gone by and apply it to this TV to relax.

Yes, I think people are going to be disappointed when the price is finally announced ... it has been mentioned many times "limited quantity", "premium edition", "Out of reach of the average Joe" .... people keep ignoring the obvious warnings that it will be expensive. Well Pioneer has a line of plasmas that also fits this description "premium, expensive, etc" and the 1080p versions are coming out in September retailing for $5000 (PDP-5010FD 50 inch) and $6000 (Elite PRO-110FD 50 inch). I wouldnt be surprised if the price for the 81 series at least hit the $5000 border. I think right now many of you are in denial ...

instead of getting all irritated Ive accepted that it will be high and have cut down some of my usual wasteful spending habits (i.e. eating at restaurants, going to bar, buying movies/video games, treating the girlfriend ;) etc) and have raised already $3500. By the end of July I should have 5 grand saved and if it comes under 4k well than Ill be just as happy as anyone else on here and will put it the extra towards an amp but there is no use get upset over this right now.... SO instead of complaining start saving by putting off getting that new underwear to replace the ones with holes in the crotch, cut back on the beer from 20/week to 2/week and quit visiting the coffee shop everyday and before you know it you'll be there! :D

Zsolt

[studdad]

To me it means that this set is going to be out of reach to most people, and will have limited availability. I've decided to pick up one of there other models and quit this game.

To me it says they are going to be late to launch.

[Flash01]

To me it says they are going to be late to launch.

It is hard to say otherwise. Perhaps we are looking too much into it as the previous poster pointed out... But probably this new technology encountered production or development roadblocks and they are fixing it.

Anyhow, I can't wait to play Duke Nukem Forever on this set! (If you know what I mean...)

[Transcend]

I'm with you 100% on that.
I'm really hoping Samsung at least acknowledge the 71 series is still coming out.

Same here; but if they don't, these 120hz sets might provide a decent alternative:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=847289

...unique thin frame, ultra-compact designs.

[hellracer]

dont dream too much about this led tech. it will be very expensive cause there wont be any other brand with same product.

[irkuck]

In IMLED LCDs all LEDs are individually modulated (hence, IMLED) whereas locally-dimmed BLUs are divided into blocks of LEDs with each block (as opposed to each individual LED) getting the same brightness value. I think the paper mentions that implementing local dimming costs less than individual modulation and this is why we'll get locally-dimmed sets first.


There is no difference in fact, or the only difference is cost.
The guys in the paper used 8x8 blocks but blocks of LED can have any size, even 1x1. The actual implementation should be a compromise between the cost and block size. No doubt this can be optimized.

What is most important in the paper is the statement that after their BL control algorithms were tested, "no obvious" artefacts were found even with critical test sequences.

The crux of the matter is now what the "no obvious" really means. It surely means that the average Joe Twelvepack will not notice more than thundering PQ. But what the artefact-smelling crowd on this forum will be able to hunt remains to be seen.

[Robiwan]

New here..
Is it worth waiting for the 81 series??
Or the 65 good enough? Have the 4692 720p now.. like the contrast ratio of the 5265 but cmon 100000:1! wow (or is it 50,000:1) on the 81 series..

any updates on pricing on those?

[791]

There's been almost nothing on them released at all. I'm also not convinced of the reliability of having hundreds of lights turning on/off, and dimming constantly - to which there will certainly be a price premium for early adopters.

[Arcona]

dont dream too much about this led tech. it will be very expensive cause there wont be any other brand with same product.

Sharp (http://www.avforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=460004) and Philips (http://www.engadgethd.com/2007/02/05/lg-philips-demos-47-inch-led-backlit-lcd-with-1-000-000/) are making some LCDs with local dimmed LEDs too

[z_toth]

I have been reading this thread for sometime now and wonder where the possibility of the 71 series cancellation came from? This rumor seemed to have come out of no where ... is there any documentation supporting this?

Since Samsung announced this product I am not led to believe otherwise than its eventual release ... besides if they didnt they would be one of the only companies to not jump on the 120 Hz band wagon than and wouldnt have something to compete with others that have already had this "buzz word" feature for months now. Makes sense that they would want to keep this product as the mass market update to the 61/65 series and release the 81 series premium product for the early adopter niche.

Im still unclear as to how the LED blocks would work if black and white pixels were within the same LED Block if there 2 million + pixels being regulated by 256 blocks or so than in many scenes black and white or some other combination of light and dark colors pixles would fall within that same dimming block and than what? would it dim to make the black look darker and ruin the brightness of the white pixel or the reverse ..... no doubt no level of explaination could make me, an AV newbie, grasp this but I certainly would like to understand if someone could explain it in the simplest terms and than laugh later at my 'simple minded' nature :cool:

Zsolt

[taurus2007]

I have been reading this thread for sometime now and wonder where the possibility of the 71 series cancellation came from? This rumor seemed to have come out of no where ... is there any documentation supporting this?

Zsolt

It's just a big fat rumor about 71 so nobody can give you a valid answer one way or the other until the official announcement from Samsung.

That's what happens when people have way too much free time on their hand... ;)