The link (http://english.etnews.co.kr/news/detail.html?id=200706260007) in post #1215 says $1000 52" panels by the end of next year (2008, presumably).

I wonder if this is the price of the component, or the actual TV?

Regards,
Sejin Oh
Sejin,
I believe its a 1k for the TV. Vizio 52" coming in August will be under 2K. And thanks for the link, it shows Samsung has there foot on the gas.

This is why I believe by the end of the year the 52" 81 seires will be much more affordable than the 11K floating around. My guess is 4k by the end of the year.

But its a guess and first have to see them first. First things first but its very promising. And just seems to me this TV is worth the wait.

Sejin,
I believe its a 1k for the TV. Vizio 52" coming in August will be under 2K. And thanks for the link, it shows Samsung has there foot on the gas.

This is why I believe by the end of the year the 52" 81 seires will be much more affordable than the 11K floating around. My guess is 4k by the end of the year.

But its a guess and first have to see them first. First things first but its very promising. And just seems to me this TV is worth the wait.

oldcband,

Sejin is correct. Samsung is predicting that the price of the panel, not the tv, will be $1000 at the end of 2008, not 2007.

http://www.engadgethd.com/2007/06/26/samsung-launches-new-8g-plant-cheap-52-inch-lcds-on-the-way/

Also, if you search this thread for "gloss" you will find that the 81 series is going to be a glossy screen like the 65 series and not matte like the 61 series and my 4095D.

oldcband,

Sejin is correct. Samsung is predicting that the price of the panel, not the tv, will be $1000 at the end of 2008, not 2007.

http://www.engadgethd.com/2007/06/26/samsung-launches-new-8g-plant-cheap-52-inch-lcds-on-the-way/

Also, if you search this thread for "gloss" you will find that the 81 series is going to be a glossy screen like the 65 series and not matte like the 61 series and my 4095D.

i thought i had heard though that the 71 and 81 would have glossy screens but with some sort of anti-gloss treatment, to make it much more balanced than the previous ones (and hopefully other plasmas as well).

btw, in the article it says that this new 8th generation (i still thought were at 9th generation now) plant will produce fabulously cheapt 50" LCD's....so then wehre are the other sizes, like 40" produced?? does this mean they wont get cheaper??

Wrong choice. I made the same mistake but at least I was allowed to return the plasma. My Sony 34" HD XBR CRT is light years ahead the 4280 in black level department. LED LCD seems to be the only hope for crt like black levels. I hope that my CRT doesn't die before Samsung 81 release :(

34" is awfully small. The Pioneer 8Gs and the up and coming 81s are the only ones that will truly shine with black levels and in general there is a tradeoff when leaving an HD tube. However, if these Sammys truely have a 500k:1 CR and are as bright as a typical LCD I'm sure they'll be a sight to see. But with that I have to assume that a hefty price tag is going to come with these. I surely thought the Pioneer 8Gs were going to be more expensive than they are so I could be wrong about the prices on the Sammys too if they ever come out :p .

yeah so basically aside from the 5080 cominout early, it's a countdown for the kuro sets right? unless they started naming them kuro during the previous generation, or released lower performing kuros?

Kuro sets are out now. I believe the countdown represents the FULL line coming out... if that.

if the Kuro sets are the "80" series (that werent there when i looked on their website a few weeks previous), they really dont use the Kuro branding anywhere.

if the Kuro sets are the "80" series (that werent there when i looked on their website a few weeks previous), they really dont use the Kuro branding anywhere.

I am pretty sure the big "Kuro" sticker on the 5080 I saw constitutes them as a Kuro model.

But yea.. don't worry. The 5080 is a Kuro model. That is a fact. Now let's just get back to Samsung 81. We need some news!

oldcband,

Sejin is correct. Samsung is predicting that the price of the panel, not the tv, will be $1000 at the end of 2008, not 2007.

Also, if you search this thread for "gloss" you will find that the 81 series is going to be a glossy screen like the 65 series and not matte like the 61 series and my 4095D.
You're correct its "the end of next year". And its the panel itself. But how much more for the electronics? I've read in the Vizio thread the August date for Costco's 52" maybe 1700.00. 2 years ago a 37" was 6k retail for my TV and now 1700.00 for a 52" and predictions stating that prices will continue this trend?

The one's in this thread trying to make it sound like these 81's are going to be pricey (which maybe at first) but should come down quickly. It just stands to reason. The Trend will continue.

IMO its always a good time to buy, but this ones worth the wait. But its all hype for now but what isn't.

And the ones that want to down play this TV might have a little buyers remorse? But they should enjoy what the have. I've always tried to get 5 years out of a TV but thats starting to get harder with tech moving so fast.

I have owned a 4661 for 3 weeks and had HDMI handshake problems. I live in NJ and Samsung sent repair techs directly from Samsung USA headquarters in NJ.

The techs appeared very knowledgable so as they were swapping out my board I asked about the 81's. They told me there were numerous 81's at their office being field tested.

They said that while they were not directly involved with the testing - they had heard that there were "issues with the picture" on the 81 and that Samsung was not yet satisfied with the TV.

He told me to expect a delayed release.

Note: Don't hold me to this info. I'm only reporting what 2 techs dispached from Samsung USA headquarters told me. Don't bother asking me any questions on this - You now know what I know.

I have owned a 4661 for 3 weeks and had HDMI handshake problems. I live in NJ and Samsung sent repair techs directly from Samsung USA headquarters in NJ.

The techs appeared very knowledgable so as they were swapping out my board I asked about the 81's. They told me there were numerous 81's at their office being field tested.

They said that while they were not directly involved with the testing - they had heard that there were "issues with the picture" on the 81 and that Samsung was not yet satisfied with the TV.

He told me to expect a delayed release.

Note: Don't hold me to this info. I'm only reporting what 2 techs dispached from Samsung USA headquarters told me. Don't bother asking me any questions on this - You now know what I know.

FUD.

Sorry that I didn't read the 42 pages of most likely interesting stuff (I'm new, coming from Pioneer 8G thread) but do I understand correctly that there is still no date, nor a price for the 81?

What are the latest specs that are knwon and confirmed?

Many thanks!

Sorry that I didn't read the 42 pages of most likely interesting stuff (I'm new, coming from Pioneer 8G thread) but do I understand correctly that there is still no date, nor a price for the 81?

What are the latest specs that are knwon and confirmed?

Many thanks!

Still no concrete date, price, or any specs for the 71/81 panels.

I am almost positive that the countdown is for when All the NON-1080P sets will be available (Elite and NON elite)

The Normal Non 1080p pioneers are already out and the Elites should be out in July - Which explains the countdown...

The 1080ps will not be out until SEPTEMBER OR OCTOBER...

So the countdown is for the 720p elites

So it looks like the 81 will be VERY highly priced.

Is there going to be a 71 series LCD?

FUD.


FUD - Not quite. I think the PQ on the current XX61 and XX65 series is excellent. Thats why I have one.

WE were crying because Samsung released their current series with HDMI issues and we would cry louder if they issued the more expensive 81's with bugs.

They probably don't want to release their flagship TV with a major problem and have people jump ship like Sharp. When the 81 is released it will probably be the best LCD on the market.

So it looks like the 81 will be VERY highly priced.

Is there going to be a 71 series LCD?

there was supposed to be, but no news yet

This anticipation thread started more than six months ago. This must be some kind of record for something that's still not available.

This anticipation thread started more than six months ago. This must be some kind of record for something that's still not available.Try SED if you are looking for a record!!! :eek: :eek: :eek:

Try SED if you are looking for a record!!! :eek: :eek: :eek:
http://www.cartooncottage.com/images/ripani0822.gif

Sad but true. But hopefully SED will one day heed those immortal words....

"RISE FROM YOUR GRAVE!!!"

:D

Sad but true. But hopefully SED will one day heed those immortal words....

RISE FROM YOUR GRAVE!!!

you mean "wise fwom your gwave".......at least that's how it sounded to me back in the genesis days.

LOL! So true! But I was thinking of the arcade version. ;) :D

This looks like an incredible TV. I've been looking for a 60", but a 57" this beautiful might be worth the sacrifice in size. I doubt, however, it will be anywhere near my budget but its a step in the right direction for LCD.

btw, in the article it says that this new 8th generation (i still thought were at 9th generation now) plant will produce fabulously cheapt 50" LCD's....so then wehre are the other sizes, like 40" produced?? does this mean they wont get cheaper??

I've seen this 8th/9th generation misconception 3 or 4 times now in the last several pages of this thread. I'm not an expert on what mother glass constitutes an 8th generation facility vs a 9th generation facility, but I don't believe there are ANY 9th generation plants in volume production today. If I remember correctly, Sharp was the first with an 8th generation facility, in which they started producing their first TVs that hit the market last Fall (the 46"/52" members of the 62u series).

Unfortunately, their lead on 8th generation technology came with a hitch - non-uniformities that appear to be inherent in their manufacturing process, as many posters in the owners threads for the 62/82/92u series TVs have complained about banding issues. I remember specifically a number of people wondering whether the Samsung/Sony JV and LG/Philips JV would experience similar problems when they brought their 8TH generation facilities on line this year.

The point being not to rag on Sharp here, but to simply point out that I think that they led the market on LCD manufacturing generation technology, and Samsung is only bringing up their 8th generation facility now, not 9th generation.

Still no concrete date, price, or any specs for the 71/81 panels.


this is pathetic

if the ETA is august to most likely october
we still should have at least specs by now

I've seen this 8th/9th generation misconception 3 or 4 times now in the last several pages of this thread. I'm not an expert on what mother glass constitutes an 8th generation facility vs a 9th generation facility, but I don't believe there are ANY 9th generation plants in volume production today. If I remember correctly, Sharp was the first with an 8th generation facility, in which they started producing their first TVs that hit the market last Fall (the 46"/52" members of the 62u series).

Unfortunately, their lead on 8th generation technology came with a hitch - non-uniformities that appear to be inherent in their manufacturing process, as many posters in the owners threads for the 62/82/92u series TVs have complained about banding issues. I remember specifically a number of people wondering whether the Samsung/Sony JV and LG/Philips JV would experience similar problems when they brought their 8TH generation facilities on line this year.

The point being not to rag on Sharp here, but to simply point out that I think that they led the market on LCD manufacturing generation technology, and Samsung is only bringing up their 8th generation facility now, not 9th generation.

To my non-professional knowledge, you're absolutely right. Furthermore, the only major difference in-between generations is the size of the glass sheet that is being used (sheets are fairly sizable, even for lower generations). This has as an advantage that you loose less glass when cutting the huge sheet at the required size (more optimal combinations are possible in-between 42, 46, 52 inches if you use a larger sheet). So the biggest advantage of nex-gen plants is cost ... you're next generation LCD TV could be made with a panel coming from a Gen 6 plant, but the price is most likely to be higher in comparison with a gen 8 plant.

....So the biggest advantage of nex-gen plants is cost ... you're next generation LCD TV could be made with a panel coming from a Gen 6 plant, but the price is most likely to be higher in comparison with a gen 8 plant.

This is bit extreme viewpoint. Each generation brings many improvements to the technology, not only increasing the glass size. Of course this requires lots of effort and sometimes errors are made but with each gen PQ goes up. Sharp new 65 incher of D93 series is reportedly fantastic panel and one can expect Samsung 8 Gen panels will raise the PQ level significantly.

This is bit extreme viewpoint. Each generation brings many improvements to the technology, not only increasing the glass size. Of course this requires lots of effort and sometimes errors are made but with each gen PQ goes up. Sharp new 65 incher of D93 series is reportedly fantastic panel and one can expect Samsung 8 Gen panels will raise the PQ level significantly.

yeah but that might be a whole seperate thing. Like how they said the 8th gen plant would be primarily for manufacturing 52 and 46 inch tv's.....so what about the 40 inch XBR4? presumably it gets made at a non 8th gen plant? thusly while it may not get as high a price cut (although i still be it will likely start off chepaer regardless though) it will also be a next gen panel with the same PQ improvement.

This is bit extreme viewpoint. Each generation brings many improvements to the technology, not only increasing the glass size. Of course this requires lots of effort and sometimes errors are made but with each gen PQ goes up. Sharp new 65 incher of D93 series is reportedly fantastic panel and one can expect Samsung 8 Gen panels will raise the PQ level significantly.

To my knowledge, the plants you're talking about make only the panel, which is a component of the tv. Afterwards, the panel gets assembled with lots of other stuff like video processors. It's mainly those video processors and other stuff that determine picture quality. Look at Philips, they use panels coming from their JV with LG ("LG-Philips") but the end-product is different from LCD tvs coming from JV due to electronics that go into the tv.

yeah but that might be a whole seperate thing. Like how they said the 8th gen plant would be primarily for manufacturing 52 and 46 inch tv's.....so what about the 40 inch XBR4? presumably it gets made at a non 8th gen plant? thusly while it may not get as high a price cut (although i still be it will likely start off chepaer regardless though) it will also be a next gen panel with the same PQ improvement.

The fact that they will be making more 52 and 46 inch models is probably just a business decision. Everyone wants a bigger screen at a lower cost. 40 inch models will be made with leftovers (lol just kidding). They just decide how many panels they can squeeze in without losing too much material, and what Samsung is saying is they want the 46 and 52 models to be their preferred sizes and drive cost down. They even say that they could change this ratio if market changes. (If you scroll back to the link I posted a while back)

And I do think Irkuck has it nailed on. A plant being 6, 7, 8 whatever gen doesn't mean its just a glass-size improvements.

What a great thread! I'm finally ready to buy my first HDTV, and I'm also looking to buy the XBOX360 Elite to go with it. I've done some research on HDTVs and I've decided I want a Samsung LCD for sure. My stepfather has an older Samsung LCD (2 yrs) and the picture is fantastic. I will be replacing my Mitsubishi 36" CRT. I have to tell you, that CRT has been a GREAT TV for me over the years. I paid $1200 for it back in the mid 90's, and the picture quality is still great. That was a lot of money for me to spend on a TV back then, but it was clearly worth it. I'm willing to pay up to around $5000 for my next TV, but I'm hoping to pay closer to $4000. Even though I'm ready to buy a TV now, I heard all the hype about the Samsung 81 series LCD, and decided I could wait a few months. Besides, its Summer right now and I can definitely wait until late Fall, early Winter, to buy a TV. The Winter is prime time for watching TV and playing video games anyway. I'm a little disappointed to read a couple things on this thread:

1) The 81 series may be delayed
2) The 52" model could run 10k or more in price

I was hoping the 81 series would come out now, and then the prices would drop enough to where I could afford the 52" model for under 5k. I guess the odds don't look too good for that scenario right now?

Once the 81 series does come out, I'm hoping some of you early adopters will give me the scoop on picture quality and help with picture settings.

What a great thread! I'm finally ready to buy my first HDTV, and I'm also looking to buy the XBOX360 Elite to go with it. I've done some research on HDTVs and I've decided I want a Samsung LCD for sure. My stepfather has an older Samsung LCD (2 yrs) and the picture is fantastic. I will be replacing my Mitsubishi 36" CRT. I have to tell you, that CRT has been a GREAT TV for me over the years. I paid $1200 for it back in the mid 90's, and the picture quality is still great. That was a lot of money for me to spend on a TV back then, but it was clearly worth it. I'm willing to pay up to around $5000 for my next TV, but I'm hoping to pay closer to $4000. Even though I'm ready to buy a TV now, I heard all the hype about the Samsung 81 series LCD, and decided I could wait a few months. Besides, its Summer right now and I can definitely wait until late Fall, early Winter, to buy a TV. The Winter is prime time for watching TV and playing video games anyway. I'm a little disappointed to read a couple things on this thread:

1) The 81 series may be delayed
2) The 52" model could run 10k or more in price

I was hoping the 81 series would come out now, and then the prices would drop enough to where I could afford the 52" model for under 5k. I guess the odds don't look too good for that scenario right now?

Once the 81 series does come out, I'm hoping some of you early adopters will give me the scoop on picture quality and help with picture settings.

yes, you will see plenty of info from early adopters, just look at the 61/65 thread. To be honest, I don't think anyone truely has an estimated price or delivery date. It may be on track, or it may be 5 months behind, who knows, as Samsung has not released any info. If this continues until August (no info) then I for one will be looking at all the other alternatives that will be coming out soon. No, not alternatives as far as LED, not at least as I can tell, but plenty of good stuff coming out soon.

yes, you will see plenty of info from early adopters, just look at the 61/65 thread. To be honest, I don't think anyone truely has an estimated price or delivery date. It may be on track, or it may be 5 months behind, who knows, as Samsung has not released any info. If this continues until August (no info) then I for one will be looking at all the other alternatives that will be coming out soon. No, not alternatives as far as LED, not at least as I can tell, but plenty of good stuff coming out soon.

Well technically, reports from CES said July release. While it would've been nice to have more information so far, we can't say for sure they will be delayed. As far as price go, well this is pure speculation. Heck it could be cheaper than CCFL LCDs for all we know! I wouldn't bet 2 bucks on it, but none here has that information anyway. If you want our guess, then ya, it seems like it will be delayed, but only because we don;t have any specs. The plant at which we speculate (isn't that fun) the 81 series will be produced, is not only on schedule, but ahead of time.

Finally I've been itching a lot for the 65 series lately. They're having canada day deals in most of the stores (kinda like what the US can expect for 4th July). The 4665f is off 500$ at my local store and I'd hate to pass this opportunity but I can't get my head around to not wait and see what this series (81) will bring to the table...

Enjoy your stay in this thread... I may be a while...

Well technically, reports from CES said July release. While it would've been nice to have more information so far, we can't say for sure they will be delayed. As far as price go, well this is pure speculation. Heck it could be cheaper than CCFL LCDs for all we know! I wouldn't bet 2 bucks on it, but none here has that information anyway. If you want our guess, then ya, it seems like it will be delayed, but only because we don;t have any specs. The plant at which we speculate (isn't that fun) the 81 series will be produced, is not only on schedule, but ahead of time.

Finally I've been itching a lot for the 65 series lately. They're having canada day deals in most of the stores (kinda like what the US can expect for 4th July). The 4665f is off 500$ at my local store and I'd hate to pass this opportunity but I can't get my head around to not wait and see what this series (81) will bring to the table...

Enjoy your stay in this thread... I may be a while...

Well, there is always xmas! :D

To my knowledge, the plants you're talking about make only the panel, which is a component of the tv. Afterwards, the panel gets assembled with lots of other stuff like video processors. It's mainly those video processors and other stuff that determine picture quality. Look at Philips, they use panels coming from their JV with LG ("LG-Philips") but the end-product is different from LCD tvs coming from JV due to electronics that go into the tv.

It is so easy to say "only" the panel. In truth the panel is absolutely crtical component. Samsung too has JV with Sony and both use different electronics.

Finally I've been itching a lot for the 65 series lately. They're having canada day deals in most of the stores (kinda like what the US can expect for 4th July). The 4665f is off 500$ at my local store and I'd hate to pass this opportunity but I can't get my head around to not wait and see what this series (81) will bring to the table...

Enjoy your stay in this thread... I may be a while...


Could be the reason they aren't leaking any info on the new sets, after all they released the 65 series not 3 months ago & are heavily advertising it on TV.

To railroad that with info on a new & improved 71 & 81 series coming out in a month, especially during the big 4th of July sales might be bad for them?

It is so easy to say "only" the panel. In truth the panel is absolutely crtical component. Samsung too has JV with Sony and both use different electronics.

You confirm it ... they have the same panel and different electronics. So why are samsung LCD tvs so much better Sony (imho), due to the electronics, not due to the panel (as the panel is the same) !!

:)

Could be the reason they aren't leaking any info on the new sets, after all they released the 65 series not 3 months ago & are heavily advertising it on TV.

To railroad that with info on a new & improved 71 & 81 series coming out in a month, especially during the big 4th of July sales might be bad for them?

hey good point. lets see what happens come july 5th.

On a side note, The new 120hz toshiba sets schedualed for june have just shipped (june 29th) So if they can pull that, samsung might be pulling a shipment date on july 29th? Either way, come August 1st, im buying a samsung 81/71 or the new 46" toshiba cinema 177 series. If those 81/71s are not out by then (or at least specs and prices and solid date confirmed), then samsung has lost itself a customer.

Could be the reason they aren't leaking any info on the new sets, after all they released the 65 series not 3 months ago & are heavily advertising it on TV.

To railroad that with info on a new & improved 71 & 81 series coming out in a month, especially during the big 4th of July sales might be bad for them?

Oh absolutely. That's why I'm thinking we may be overreacting when some folks state for sure this set will be late or for sure it will cost over 10 grand. I mean while it would've been nice, Samsung isn't in the business of press releases, as long as they come out with these new sets and they don't miss out on too many aspects, they'll have a stronger grip of the market (even if its just that they'll have a step ahead of the competitions for their *next* LED BLU panels). But as far as hard facts, we just don't know. It is quite encouraging to see the 70 inch panel *ready* for sale, it probably uses a lot of the same technology. It is encouraging to see their new plant operational...

Specs and press release prevents people from buying from the competition. Then you consider branding (you want the best product, even if people cannot afford it (ie. The 108+ inch panels shown at CES) so that buyers associate you with the best products. On the other hand, you may not want to make a big splash and give the nay-sayers the chance to steal your thunder. Some, like video card companies, do hard launches to prevent negative press and to keep things as secret before they can put their products out.

As much as a comforting thought as this is, I'm still quite itching for a 4665f ;)

You confirm it ... they have the same panel and different electronics. So why are samsung LCD tvs so much better Sony (imho), due to the electronics, not due to the panel (as the panel is the same) !!
:)

It is debatable if Samsung is across the raneg outright better than Sony. This is more complicated as both companies are using panels made by others, taiwanese manufacturers. High-end sets have genuine JV panels and
Sony is regarded top gun in this range too.

It is debatable if Samsung is across the raneg outright better than Sony. This is more complicated as both companies are using panels made by others, taiwanese manufacturers. High-end sets have genuine JV panels and
Sony is regarded top gun in this range too.

indeed, dont forget that panel wise they were (i'm not sure about the 6x's) using the same PVA 8MS panel from the same factory no less (so it's the same quality PVA), so panel tech is actualy the same (i wonder if they upgraded it, not for the 6x's but perhaps for the 71's and the Sony XBR4's??).

The only difference really is the extra trimmings and video processor stuff that they use, and i think actually it's a pretty clear win in Sony's favor, their XBR processing has commonly been considered to be the best (some of it of course is marketing fluff, but even a knowledgable av guy would probably say that it is best).

Caution the file is 30+ MB

http://www.samsung.com/support/productsupport/download/FileView.aspx?cttfileid=1410156&type=TV&typecode=200100&subtype=LCD+TV&subtypecode=200101&cmssubtypecode=&model=LN46M81BD&filetype=UM&language=

Caution the file is 30+ MB

http://www.samsung.com/support/productsupport/download/FileView.aspx?cttfileid=1410156&type=TV&typecode=200100&subtype=LCD+TV&subtypecode=200101&cmssubtypecode=&model=LN46M81BD&filetype=UM&language=

Nope.

Caution the file is 30+ MB

http://www.samsung.com/support/productsupport/download/FileView.aspx?cttfileid=1410156&type=TV&typecode=200100&subtype=LCD+TV&subtypecode=200101&cmssubtypecode=&model=LN46M81BD&filetype=UM&language=
Appears to be the code used for panels in Mexico - doing a search I found them on the Mexico Consumer Website. :)

Appears to be the code used for panels in Mexico - doing a search I found them on the Mexico Consumer Website. :)

Westa, i don't understand spanish but it says 15000:1 CR, so it isn't LED:
http://www.grupomansion.net/index.cfm?doc=producto_detalle

It's the Bordeaux model.

This is an interesting article on the start-up of Samsung's 8G plant. Let's hope they don't produce banded panels! It explains the relative scarcity of 52" Samsung panels. That's about to change soon.

http://english.etnews.co.kr/news/detail.html?id=20070626007
Click on the Samsung article on the right

this is pathetic

if the ETA is august to most likely october
we still should have at least specs by now

Yup, they are making a big mistake. I know I am looking at the Toshiba LX177's which are just starting to ship. With no info., I am starting to doubt several things about what they have claimed, and I am not going to wait around for "pie in the sky".

Yup, they are making a big mistake. I know I am looking at the Toshiba LX177's which are just starting to ship. With no info., I am starting to doubt several things about what they have claimed, and I am not going to wait around for "pie in the sky".


Yup, true 120hz, HDMI 1.3 & deep color & shipping this month!
If Samsung doesn't cough up any info this month than I'm going with the new Toshiba.

Yup, true 120hz, HDMI 1.3 & deep color & shipping this month!
If Samsung doesn't cough up any info this month than I'm going with the new Toshiba.

Don't forget it does 1080p/24.

This is an interesting article on the start-up of Samsung's 8G plant. Let's hope they don't produce banded panels! It explains the relative scarcity of 52" Samsung panels. That's about to change soon.

http://english.etnews.co.kr/news/detail.html?id=20070626007
Click on the Samsung article on the right
Link appears to require membership and breaks so here's a copy and paste: (It'll seem disjointed in spots since it's been interpreted to English perhaps via software)

Samsung electronics will operate the 8th generation LCD line from next month

Tuesday, June 26, 2007 By Jang, Ji-young

Samsung Electronics will start operating the 8th generation production facility from July earlier than its schedule. Thanks to early operation of the 8th generation production line optimized to mass produce 52inch LCD TV panel, 50inch LCD TV is expected to be popularize earlier.

Samsung also plans to invest in building the 2nd production lines after the first mass production of the 8th generation LCD TV panels. So, facility investment in local LCD industry which was slowed down for a while is likely to increase.

On June 25th, according to the industry insiders, Samsung Electronics started to test mass production of 52 inch TV panel this month by putting 2,000 glass panels to the 8th generation LCD production line. Moreover, the company will put 10,000 glass panels, required amount for mass production, from July.

A representative of an equipment supplier said　“Samsung Electronics decided to input 6,000 glass panels in the 8th generation LCD production line in early July and to put similar amount in the mid-month. Under such internal goal, Samsung strongly requires equipment suppliers to hasten facility optimization.”

The 8th generation glass panel of Samsung Electronics(2500×2200㎜) can produce 6 pieces of 52 inch TV panels, two times faster than the 7the generation production line. Therefore, when 10,000 glass panels are put in July, it is possible to produce 30,000-50,000 pieces of 52 inch TV panel depending upon demand. Samsung Electronics will increase the glass panel input to the 1st line of 8th generation panel production facility to 50,000 and operate the 2nd line in the later half. So, the price of panels is likely to sharply fall.

Reflecting this, President Lee, Sang-wan of Samsung Electronics said “We can lower the price of 52inch LCD panel to 1,000 dollars by the end of next year.” (It appears an 81 series could go for such a price 18 months from now - that seems unbelievable but terrific at the same time.)

Equipment industry projects that facility investment in the 2nd line will start as early as the yearend, thanks to the operation of the 8th generation production line. It is also predicted that the facility investment can start even earlier if panel sales show great performance in the 3rd quarter, a high-demand season. (third quarter is July - Sept)

Regarding this, an official of Samsung Electronics said “we are speeding up in mass production of the 8th generation products but official mass production amount should be calculated based on the number of completed products rather than the amount of glass panel input. Even if large amount of glass panels are input in July, official mass production schedule can be adjusted upon demand.” 　

In the mean time, Samsung Electronics started operation of the 8th generation production line in August, 2month earlier than original schedule.

(It seems as if the software interpretation may have screwed up this contradictory statement since aforementioned panels started in July-first 10K anyways early adopter specials ;) - unless they hold these for domestic Asia we should see these within 30 days - but the 52"+ market is more of a N. America panel vs. Asia and Europe where the target panel sizes are smaller from past reports I've read.)

Anyways - it appears they should be in production as we discuss here now, and the question is where will the distribution be targeted?

I was at Best Buy last night. One of the workers in the tv area said the 81 series would be out mid August but only Magnolia stores would be carrying it. He said they would be somewhere in 5k-10k range.

NeedHDTV, Im sure he did.

Westa6969,

I, too, read that article on engadgethd. Here (http://english.etnews.co.kr/news/detail.html?id=200706260007) is a link to the original article off of their site that did not require a subscription.

Anyways, definitely very interesting and good news... especially since lcd output will substantially increase, hopefully driving down prices. However, $1000 for a 52" LCD. Gimme a break. Now that sounds a bit far-fetched, IMO. :eek:

obfinance

Westa6969,

I, too, read that article on engadgethd. Here (http://english.etnews.co.kr/news/detail.html?id=200706260007) is a link to the original article off of their site that did not require a subscription.

Anyways, definitely very interesting and good news... especially since lcd output will substantially increase, hopefully driving down prices. However, $1000 for a 52" LCD. Gimme a break. Now that sounds a bit far-fetched, IMO. :eek:

obfinance

I'd settle for a 46" 81 series < 4K tomorrow. :)

I know, I know...

Oh and please Conan, stop being sarcastic with people. NeedHDTV was posting what he heard. May or may not be true but there are ways to reply to someone without insinuating they are lying. The TITLE of this thread contains the word anticipation, meaning that these sets are not yet out, we kinda know that by now and are accepting that they may or not be out soon.

oh yeah, his first post on AVS and he's talking about release dates and pricing? Give me a break. It's someone else on this thread making fun. For all you know it could be me :eek:

I have been reading this thread for quite awhile now and I finally heard some news worth sharing. I do have some doubts about what the employee was telling me but it is what he said regardless.

Westa6969,
However, $1000 for a 52" LCD. Gimme a break. Now that sounds a bit far-fetched, IMO. :eek:

obfinance

That was $1000 for the panel, not counting the rest of the TV... Backlights, case, electronics, retail markup, etc. But, it probably means next year 52" should crack the $2000 barrier in the cheap brands.

hahaha...first site I've seen post a price, however, every size in the 71 and 81 series up to the 5281 is the same price:

Retail: $11,110 Sale Price: $9,999

However, the page has been modified since, and they were removed.

You can still view it on google cache though.

http://216.239.51.104/search?q=cache:wtj9lUaSWrAJ:www.dtvcenter.com/product/brand.cfm%3Fbrandname%3Dsamsung+LN-T4081F&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=6&gl=us


Here's the Active page:

http://www.dtvcenter.com/product/brand.cfm?brandname=samsung


Lets speculate...

I know pre-order prices don't mean squat but if a seller would feel confident with a 9999$ for a 57" 81 series, how would that translate for the 52" and the 46". I'm still hoping for a sub 4k 46" model.

Lets say Samsung has ironed out all their issues. They got a TV out on the market that can blast away the competition in a showroom, yet they don't have a 200% cost attached to it. Would it be smarter for them to push out the products as an elite lineup and sell minimal sets, or would it make sense to delay until you can drive the market for 6-8 months without any response from Sony/Sharp/JVC (Which have all announced their summer lineups)? I'm daydreaming, but I'm still hoping that the 81 series will not be a very limited product. Not saying it will happen, but I can hope can I?

Just a quick question. Has anyone actually seen a codename 81 series TV? I don't mean anyone here personally, but has there ever been a demonstration of the 81 series? It seems that all the websites are just spouting announcements back from CES. Even SED (GOD rests its soul) had a prototype to wow people. This tech sounds like the second coming, and there is no news at all? You would think Samsung would have some kind of huge press event scheduled with some giant countdown ticker to announce the best TV ever made. Pioneer hyped their 8gs for months before they came out.

There are either 1 of 2 things happening here:
1. Samsung ran into production issues and these TVs are nowhere near ready for primetime and probobly will not see the light of day untill the middle of next year.

2. Samsung is so impressed with what they have made, and the cost will be lower than anticipated.

If I don't hear anything official about the 81 series in a month or so, I might just look at the 61 and 65 series. How big of a difference in quality do you guys see between these two? Of course I realize you would only be speculating about what the 81 series "might" produce as far as quality goes. I LOVE the picture my stepfather's Samsung LCD produces, and that thing is a couple years old. (wish I knew the model number)

Actually, I should probably just take my lazy a$$ over to another thread to see what people think of the 61 and 65 series. :)

If I don't hear anything official about the 81 series in a month or so, I might just look at the 61 and 65 series. How big of a difference in quality do you guys see between these two? Of course I realize you would only be speculating about what the 81 series "might" produce as far as quality goes. I LOVE the picture my stepfather's Samsung LCD produces, and that thing is a couple years old. (wish I knew the model number)

Actually, I should probably just take my lazy a$$ over to another thread to see what people think of the 61 and 65 series. :)

they are highly thought of (61/65), just suffering from some HDMI issue right now.

My biggest concern is motion blur. That is why I was waiting for the 71 series at the least. However, Toshiba just came out with its 120hz line (just started shipping) and other companies will be coming out with there 120hz lines in the near future as well. If Samsung doesn't make some progress soon, they will be left in the dust, and I say that with some regret, as Samsung is my brand of choice.

they are highly thought of (61/65), just suffering from some HDMI issue right now.

My biggest concern is motion blur. That is why I was waiting for the 71 series at the least. However, Toshiba just came out with its 120hz line (just started shipping) and other companies will be coming out with there 120hz lines in the near future as well. If Samsung doesn't make some progress soon, they will be left in the dust, and I say that with some regret, as Samsung is my brand of choice.

Here's a thought: If I don't hear anything about the 81 series soon, I could just go with a 61 or 65 series now (maybe a panel under 50"). Then, if and when the better 81 series comes out, I could wait for that panel to drop in price (especially the 50+" models). Maybe wait until late 2008. Then I could just put the older TV up in my bedroom, and put the newer, better, and bigger TV in the living room. I guess my point is, I have no HDTVs right now. I'm still stuck with CRTs. I don't know how much longer I can go without jumping to HD. It's killing me!

The big question is, can I live with the "few" problems the 61 or 65 series have? My guess is, I would still be blown away by the jump to HD, so I may not notice them as much. I think I need to check the tvs out on display somewhere (Best Buy probably?)

despite my low posting numbers, the only two threads i really pay close attention to are this one and the 61/65 thread, and from what i understand the hdmi dropout problem with the 61/65s has been resolved. samsung is sending technicians to swap out motherboards and upgrade firmware, which is apparently fixing the problem for people. but as long as you get a model that was manufactured in june (or later) you shouldn't experience the hdmi dropout problem. you just need to make sure you get a model with 1028 firmware and a 1008 motherboard. to check for when your tv may have been manufactured, look at the serial number -- the 8th character will be a "P", the number that follows it will denote the month in which it was made. that number must be at least 6.

i have to stop myself almost daily from going out and buying one of the 65s, but maybe i should just go ahead and do it already. that would pretty much all but guarantee the release of the 81s the very next day....(i'm not good at waiting)

i have to stop myself almost daily from going out and buying one of the 65s, but maybe i should just go ahead and do it already. that would pretty much all but guarantee the release of the 81s the very next day....(i'm not good at waiting)

LOL... I was thinking that exact same thing! We would both be doing the members in this thread a huge favor by getting th 65. My luck is just that bad. Heh.

they are highly thought of (61/65), just suffering from some HDMI issue right now.

My biggest concern is motion blur. That is why I was waiting for the 71 series at the least. However, Toshiba just came out with its 120hz line (just started shipping) and other companies will be coming out with there 120hz lines in the near future as well. If Samsung doesn't make some progress soon, they will be left in the dust, and I say that with some regret, as Samsung is my brand of choice.

any reviews up for that toshiba set yet? i'd like to see how 120khz implementation faires (or at least however thye apply it if they do it differently).

any reviews up for that toshiba set yet? i'd like to see how 120khz implementation faires (or at least however thye apply it if they do it differently).

Are you talking about the LX177 model? If it is, then there is a thread for it here, http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=782774.

any reviews up for that toshiba set yet? i'd like to see how 120khz implementation faires (or at least however thye apply it if they do it differently).

Still waiting on reviews. I just saw the thread was posted. I am checking it daily to see if the "buzz" is worth it.

despite my low posting numbers, the only two threads i really pay close attention to are this one and the 61/65 thread, and from what i understand the hdmi dropout problem with the 61/65s has been resolved. samsung is sending technicians to swap out motherboards and upgrade firmware, which is apparently fixing the problem for people. but as long as you get a model that was manufactured in june (or later) you shouldn't experience the hdmi dropout problem. you just need to make sure you get a model with 1028 firmware and a 1008 motherboard. to check for when your tv may have been manufactured, look at the serial number -- the 8th character will be a "P", the number that follows it will denote the month in which it was made. that number must be at least 6.

i have to stop myself almost daily from going out and buying one of the 65s, but maybe i should just go ahead and do it already. that would pretty much all but guarantee the release of the 81s the very next day....(i'm not good at waiting)

Well, MOST peoples problems have been resolved. there are still a few people with 1028/1008 who are experiencing problems.

Here's a thought: If I don't hear anything about the 81 series soon, I could just go with a 61 or 65 series now (maybe a panel under 50"). Then, if and when the better 81 series comes out, I could wait for that panel to drop in price (especially the 50+" models). Maybe wait until late 2008. Then I could just put the older TV up in my bedroom, and put the newer, better, and bigger TV in the living room. I guess my point is, I have no HDTVs right now. I'm still stuck with CRTs. I don't know how much longer I can go without jumping to HD. It's killing me!

The big question is, can I live with the "few" problems the 61 or 65 series have? My guess is, I would still be blown away by the jump to HD, so I may not notice them as much. I think I need to check the tvs out on display somewhere (Best Buy probably?)

Yes, you would be blown away,,,,and, the picture will look better in your house than at BB. Yes, if you can afford to buy a set now, and then another next year, then that would be a good option for you.

Hi all! I'm looking into buying my first HDTV set. I am being heavily persuaded to go with an 8th Gen. Pio Elite. Looking into getting the PRO 950 42" set. I've seen the Pio 5080 at BB and I thought it look excellent as far as PQ goes. Also, the black levels appear to be as good as advertised and raved about from what I saw. I've also been hearing a lot about the Samsung 81 series, with the outrageous contrast ratio of in between 50,000:1 and 100,000:1. This has put me at a standstill on buying a TV right now. I'm trying to figure out would it be worth waiting on the new Samsung series to come out and see for myself or take the plunge and get the Pio Elite. Folks have been waiting on information, specs. about the new 81 series and nothing substantial has come out yet! I wanna know is the new 81 series gonna be that much better than the new Pio Elites that are about to come out now. Since no one has anymore info. on the new Samsung series, i'm not quite sure what to make of it or what to do exactly. I want a new television set badly, but not sure what route to go, Plasma or LED LCD. Guess i'll wait it out longer if I can hold out that long. Any input or information would be greatly appreciated, thanks!

Yes, you would be blown away,,,,and, the picture will look better in your house than at BB. Yes, if you can afford to buy a set now, and then another next year, then that would be a good option for you.

I figured they would be around $3k or so. This may make my decision easier. If this tv is as good as everyone says, I could be happy with it for 1 - 2 years, and wait and see how the 81 series turns out. Although, this thing might be a little big (46") for my bedroom once I decide to upgrade again.

The only other issue would be, how to make sure I get the latest firmware (1028) and MB (1008), to fix the HDMI problems. How would I go about doing that? Call Amazon? Would they know what the hell I'm talking about?

I figured they would be around $3k or so. This may make my decision easier. If this tv is as good as everyone says, I could be happy with it for 1 - 2 years, and wait and see how the 81 series turns out. Although, this thing might be a little big (46") for my bedroom once I decide to upgrade again.

The only other issue would be, how to make sure I get the latest firmware (1028) and MB (1008), to fix the HDMI problems. How would I go about doing that? Call Amazon? Would they know what the hell I'm talking about?

Well, I don't want to anger anyone in here, so after this post, if you have any more question, just pm me. You want to make sure you are buying from amazon, not one of the other retailers on the amazon site, as amazon has a much better return policy. There is no way to know which board you will get, although most of the people purchasing the 4665 are getting 1024/1008 or better. If you buy the 4461, there are still some older boards hanging around out there, so you may get an earlier version. If you do get an ealier version, nothing to do but call Samsung and have them send out a tech to update it if you have HDMI problems.

. Guess i'll wait it out longer if I can hold out that long. Any input or information would be greatly appreciated, thanks!

Seems like everyone is waiting as patiently as possible. I too could buy a 5265F right now and would be beyond pleased no doubt, however it is that "What if?" factor. The 81 series is supoosedly a leap frog ahead of current gen hdtvs so your 65 series will look very aged in 12 months time compared to next years models .... no doubt the 81 series will become dated as well however it will fare better than if you bought RIGHT NOW. If you do purchase a 61/65 series I highly encourage you to NOT keep checking this thread once the 81 series is released as you may be very disappointed. Hey, theoritically its only a month away and you may be saving yourself much disappointment if you wait. Hey if you wait for the release and see it is way too expensive and cant wait for a price drop than I could happily go for a 65 series or mythical 71 series without a regret but if I jumped into buying something now without knowing I may regret it later.

My 2 cents ...

Zsolt

Seems like everyone is waiting as patiently as possible. I too could buy a 5265F right now and would be beyond pleased no doubt, however it is that "What if?" factor. The 81 series is supoosedly a leap frog ahead of current gen hdtvs so your 65 series will look very aged in 12 months time compared to next years models .... no doubt the 81 series will become dated as well however it will fare better than if you bought RIGHT NOW. If you do purchase a 61/65 series I highly encourage you to NOT keep checking this thread once the 81 series is released as you may be very disappointed. Hey, theoritically its only a month away and you may be saving yourself much disappointment if you wait. Hey if you wait for the release and see it is way too expensive and cant wait for a price drop than I could happily go for a 65 series or mythical 71 series without a regret but if I jumped into buying something now without knowing I may regret it later.

My 2 cents ...

Zsolt

I agree, which is why I am still hanging in for a while.

Well, MOST peoples problems have been resolved. there are still a few people with 1028/1008 who are experiencing problems.

i'm not trying to sound like a dick or anything but like i said, i'm a noob and i've been trying to absorb as much info from this thread and the 61/65 thread as i can. i looked at the spread sheet that they are compiling over at the 61/65 forum and unless i am mistaken (and i may be) no one with the 1008/1028 config is experiencing hdmi dropout...but i'm only basing that on what i've read on that forum...

nevertheless, i am still waiting for the 81 series to be released in the hopes that it completely changes the way we look at lcd televisions. right now i have a 32" sony vega crt (not hd) and i am just itching to upgrade. as such, every day that goes by without a press release just makes it harder and harder to not purchase the 65 series. in the end though, i feel that i'd ultimately regret that decision. if, however, the 81 series does end up with a 10,000 dollar price tag, then i'm going to feel really stupid for not having just purchased a 65 series yesterday....decisions, decisions....

@ wayniac. You know, the longer you wait for these 81 series lcds and if you find out they are too much money, yous till win. This is because everyday the price goes down on the 61/65f series. Hell here in canada, the 40" and 46" 61/65 series Tvs have dropped $700 in price since they came out here in may. 2 months and so much of a drop. Im almost tempted not to pick up an 71/81 until October 1st (assuming it comes out in july) in hopes of saving a ton of money.

Oh and on a side note, if the 71/81 fall flat for whatever reason, you should look into the new toshiba cinema series lx177 tvs. They are just shipping now and are comparable with the 71 series (hence better then the samsung 61/65)

Speaking about LCD and PDP color comparison I had in mind perceived color quality. There is agreement that top-end plasmas have unrivalled colors. These colors are characterized by terms like warm, natural, plastic vs. LCD colors which are said to be colder, monitor-like, two dimensional. These are subjective characterizations so they do not correspond to measurable properties.

One can speculate that the reason why LCD was constantly judged lower in such color characterizations is due to precision color of components generation. In plasma each basic color is generated by its own source subpixel whose color emission characteristics is independently and precisely selected. In the present LCDs basic colors are extracted from white backlight by color filters. The white light is a mixture and color filters are not ideal, the resulting basic colors can not be as precisely controlled. LED BL might significant step forward in this respect: basic colors are generated separately and filtering of them can be more precise.

Irkuck, i know this is months later but I was just starting to read this thread from the beginning and saw your post and wanted to say thanks for your explanation. Very helpful.

I was all excited seeing a Samsung advertorial on my fantasy baseball website this morning purporting to be "the new yadda yadda yadda" and to my chagrin it revealed the 53 series? LNT-4053H?

Can someone enlighten me? I've done a search without any results.

And here I thought it was the 71 or 81 series. :(

Some posts removed

Please stay on topic

Thanks all

I was all excited seeing a Samsung advertorial on my fantasy baseball website this morning purporting to be "the new yadda yadda yadda" and to my chagrin it revealed the 53 series? LNT-4053H?

Can someone enlighten me? I've done a search without any results.

And here I thought it was the 71 or 81 series. :(

http://www.samsung.com/Products/TV/LCDTV/LNT4053HXXAA.asp

Is that the one?

http://www.samsung.com/Products/TV/LCDTV/LNT4053HXXAA.asp

Is that the one?

That's it. I guess it's not as "new" as one was led to believe.

Thanks for the link.

Oh and on a side note, if the 71/81 fall flat for whatever reason, you should look into the new toshiba cinema series lx177 tvs. They are just shipping now and are comparable with the 71 series (hence better then the samsung 61/65)

yea i was looking at the specs on that recently since it's got 120hz instead of 60 and apparently the tv is just generally pretty bad ass (technical term). i'm still holding out for the 81 (at least for a little while longer) since i'm pretty sure that the toshiba doesn't have led technology.

oh, and does anyone know the identity of the tv on the left in the very first picture of this thread. i mean, is the 81 in a side-by-side comparison with a vizio or is that a decent tv that it's being compared with...not to take away anything from vizios...

how do these sammy 81 series compare to the pioneer 8G plasmas and toshiba regza lcds in terms of image quality (black levels, color representation)

how do these sammy 81 series compare to the pioneer 8G plasmas and toshiba regza lcds in terms of image quality (black levels, color representation)

They don't exist in the wild... so... nobody knows.

hmm wonder when we can *hunt for em lol

They'll certainly be out before christmas, even if they have to push some bugs through on the early models. I can't imagine Samsung would risk loseing out on the holiday season. That being rather obvious a fall date sounds likely from everything I've read through this forum.

I've given up on my first LCD having a LED backlight but I'm still looking forward to seeing these models in action.

They'll certainly be out before christmas, even if they have to push some bugs through on the early models. I can't imagine Samsung would risk loseing out on the holiday season. That being rather obvious a fall date sounds likely from everything I've read through this forum.

I've given up on my first LCD having a LED backlight but I'm still looking forward to seeing these models in action.

One thing I have noticed is the 61/65 have had some sudden price drops after being fairly static for a long while,,,,maybe it is inventory clearance time for the new Samsung sets?

cant wait to see the price on the 42in

I just wish there was a 60"-65" model in the 81-series. I would think there is demand for larger sizes, but maybe the cost of production is too high and thus MSRP too high for the avg. consumer.

Here are the spec sheet for the BIG 70" local dimming LED LCD television LN70F91BD released in South Korea last month
At least you can look at the pictures...
http://search.sec.co.kr/redirectLog.jsp?userID=&site=sec.co.kr&fromMenu=sec.product&targetUrl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sec.co.kr%2FPCS.svl%3FCMD%3DIndex _tv%26COMM_006%3DPavvProductView%26GOODS_NO%3D146102%26dispN o%3D001007%26curDepth%3D2%26COMM_001%3D0000100030

Though, I prefer a smaller (and cheaper) version

Can you provide translation?

Whats interesting is that is also uses scanning. While this could help blur it could indude flicker, I donno if I like the idea, also means dogs might not be able to watch the picture, if this matters to you haha, but i dont like the idea of annoiying my poor puppy with flicker. What I want to know is if it is 120hz, I hope :/

From a press release:

Seoul, Korea , J une 14 , 2007 – Samsung Electronics Co., Ltd. has introduced the largest (70 inch) commercially available full high-definition LCD TV in Korea. The new TV boasts Samsung's very best image enhancement technologies and employs a light-emitting diode (LED) backlight instead of the conventional cold cathode fluorescent lamp (CCFL) version. Moreover, Samsung's unique local dimming technology enables the LED backlight to be turned off in dark image areas, delivering a dynamic contrast ratio of 500,000:1. At the same time, power consumption is lowered by as much as fifty percent.

Meanwhile, Samsung's LED scanning eliminates the flicker and ghosting problems associated with large-screen LCD TVs.

“I am pleased to introduce the 70” Full-HD LCD TV with innovative Local Dimming Technology,” said JongWoo Park, President of the Digital Media Business, Samsung Electronics. “Samsung will continue to strengthen its LCD TV leadership, enhancing Full-HD and large screen LCD TV line-up.”

A high-gloss, “piano black” bezel and titanium chrome trim accentuate the elegance and sophistication of Samsung's new 70” full-HD LCD TV. The dual hidden speakers and rear woofer deliver the rich sound quality to match the larger-than-life on-screen images.

Samsung plans to put the product on sale worldwide in the second half of this year.

http://www.samsung.com/PressCenter/PressRelease/PressRelease.asp?seq=20070614_0000354151

Another quote from HDtvlounge

The Samsung LN70F91BD as the monster is known is the World’s largest commercially available LCD on the market. The LN70F91BD boasts some very nice features also, such as the best form of HD, 1080p along with 120Hz refresh rate and of course Samsung’s own dimming LED backlight technology for a reported sky high 500,000:1 dynamic contrast ratio. The 70-inch LN70F91BD also features ACAP with 3x HDMI 1.3 and USB 2.0 (for photos, and maybe also mp3/video).


THIS TV HAS EVERYTHING YOU NEED !! high contrast, 1080p, 120HZ

From a press release:

THIS TV HAS EVERYTHING YOU NEED !! high contrast, 1080p, 120HZ
Yes, and at an MSRP of $63,000 :eek: Lose a zero and it's a Buy - Buy - Buy! ;)

Yes, and at an MSRP of $63,000 :eek: Lose a zero and it's a Buy - Buy - Buy! ;)


Yes, but don't you you think that a more reasonable screen size (46 or something like that) could come in at a more reasonable price ... prices for lcd tvs go up exponentially with screen size.

I haven't got a clue if they will make other sizes available.

Notice how the model number given would make it part of the "91" series?


And this folks is how rumors get started.

I'm certainly interested in seeing what Samsung's next line will bring. The LED BL tech sounds awesome in theory, but I think I'll be waiting for a few months post-rollout to see how the sets are technically holding up before I consider making an investment myself (and I expect it'll be a substantial investment).

Notice how the model number given would make it part of the "91" series?


And this folks is how rumors get started.


This was released from Samsung Korea though, which has different model numbers than what we're getting in North america. The 81 series was shown for the NA crowd at CES this year. I still think the codename 81 is still correct, but I don't think the 70inch is part of the same lineup (actually, I think it's a 50Hz (100Hz) model).

EDIT - Changed to a better link
http://www.sec.co.kr/PCS.svl?CMD=PavvProductList&dispNo=001007&COMM_001=0000100030

Here's a product page for the Korean models. They already have their 81 series but doesn't include LED dimming. They already have a 92 series (hehe), which I'd probably buy if it was available in North America since it has faster response times than the 65/61/66 series. (Although I have growing interest in the Regza 177 series)

It is however encouraging that they *released* this model. While it may not be of the same build quality and manufacturing process, a lot of the same technology is used, I'm guessing that includes local dimming algorithms. It would be awfully nice to have a review of this model when it becomes available but at that price point, unless Bill Gates or Oil Sheikhs read this thread we may have to wait... :)

Thats what I mean by a useful link. We just need an official press release on the smaller size TV's and Im set. Also, Im happy that they are using the scanning as Philips tried something similar with their LCD TVs and from all reports it worked at getting rid of all blur. You don't need 120hz if you use the scanning technique, because the scanning will eliminate all blur. This set could accept 24p input to eliminate judder from movies.

Thats what I mean by a useful link. We just need an official press release on the smaller size TV's and Im set. Also, Im happy that they are using the scanning as Philips tried something similar with their LCD TVs and from all reports it worked at getting rid of all blur. You don't need 120hz if you use the scanning technique, because the scanning will eliminate all blur. This set could accept 24p input to eliminate judder from movies.

Indeed, beyond Local dimming, there are a lot of things that *could* make LED BLU head and shoulders above CCFL.

You don't need 120hz if you use the scanning technique, because the scanning will eliminate all blur. This set could accept 24p input to eliminate judder from movies.

yes you do, if its still 60hz you still have 3:2 pullup cadence, regardless of scanning.

Yes, and at an MSRP of $63,000 :eek: Lose a zero and it's a Buy - Buy - Buy! ;)

Of course we could start another speculation thread as to when 70" LCD will fall under $7k. It is hard to believe 5" from Sharp's 65" to 70" costs about $55k (also considering 63" plasmas are under $3k). I think it would be a little upsetting if you forked over $63k this year to see it be $10k next year. The $63k is obviously just a charge what we want because we can price. If they are predicting a 52" inch panel size being $1k at the end of next year (samsung on their new factory), then you could just take the whole 8gen sheet and make 1 TV panel for $6k.

I really want 60-70" LCD panel prices to move down to the 5k range soon. It is the size that would work well in my living room....

necrolop. Could you please explain what you mean by 3:2 pullup cadence? I know 120hz was supposed to be great for LCD in that alot of people believed that it would eliminate judder from 24p content as 24 divides evenly into 120 but it didn't work anyway as it would just take a 60hz signal and double it. If a TV takes a 24p native signal like the new Pio 8g, then why would the TV still need 120hz? Thats why no plasma, not even the new 8g runs at 120hz because there is no need for it. The main benefit for 120hz was on the LCD side as it reduces blur. With the scanning there should be no blur at all.

necrolop. Could you please explain what you mean by 3:2 pullup cadence? I know 120hz was supposed to be great for LCD in that alot of people believed that it would eliminate judder from 24p content as 24 divides evenly into 120 but it didn't work anyway as it would just take a 60hz signal and double it. If a TV takes a 24p native signal like the new Pio 8g, then why would the TV still need 120hz? Thats why no plasma, not even the new 8g runs at 120hz because there is no need for it. The main benefit for 120hz was on the LCD side as it reduces blur. With the scanning there should be no blur at all.
From what I understand the Pioneer plasmas can display images at 60Hz or 72Hz - the refresh rate changes to 72Hz if the input is 24p, so that each frame can be displayed 3 times.

I suppose the idea with 120Hz displays is that, among other things, judder can be eliminated without having to switch refresh rates (thereby messing up calibration settings?) regardless of whether the input signal is 24p, 60i or 60p - even if this does not happen with today's displays it may be implemented correctly in future LCDs

Regards,
Sejin.

There are two different issues, motion blur and 3:2 judder. You can eliminate either one and leave the other, have both, or remove both depending on what is done. 120HZ tries to address both problems by show 24p items 5x and having a fast enough refresh that 60i/p does not have blur.

Scanning can help with the blur, but I do not see how it eliminates judder. Only way I can see removing it is to show each frames the same number of times, 24/48/72/96/120 HZ can all do that. Converting to 60 then to 120 and trying to interpolate frames does not sound like a clean solution.

Of course it is just endless speculation until the sets are spec'ed and released...

In theory with blanking between frames you could show 24p as 24p, blank the backlight change all the crystals at once to the new frame, then turn the backlight back on. It essentially would be about the same as a movie theater if they can switch the frames fast enough.

Blurring and jerky motion have several causes:
(1)24p is too slow to make motion "smooth." Without interpolation, it will not look better than what your see at a theater.
(2) 3:2 pull down creates an extra type of judder, hind of like a stutter or limp. 120 or 72Hz addresses this problem.
(3) Retina retention creates blurring. Film flashing and CRT scanning solves this, the primary cause of blurring. BFI, strobing LED BLUs and 120Hz with interpolation address this problem.
(4) 1080i interlaced image capture results in blurring. Motion adaptive de-interlacing addresses this problem. Get an external VP for this. Cheap TV chips do not do it.

(1)24p is too slow to make motion "smooth." Without interpolation, it will not look better than what your see at a theater.


Not many people complain about theater presentations of 24p. Yes it is noticable sometimes (fast movement combined with a panning shot can highlight it). Having the TV make up stuff to try to smooth it out is not really something I want my TV doing. It is really a cover for other issues with the TV's technology. If Samsung is able to blank out the backlight and have fast enough crystals to have the LCD able to completely settle before the backlight turns back on, I think the problem will be solved.

Does black frame insertion (BFI) require the backlight to be turned off for that frame or does it just involve blanking or suppressing the frame content?

just curious, does 24p mean 24fps in "progressive" mode? i didnt quite understand that (amongst other things) in this judder, 3:2, and dividing into 60 73 120 or whatever hz.

just curious, does 24p mean 24fps in "progressive" mode? i didnt quite understand that (amongst other things) in this judder, 3:2, and dividing into 60 73 120 or whatever hz.

TV's display at 60hz (or 60 fps if you like). Movies are filmed and encoded at 24Hz so that needs to be converted to 60Hz and they do this with what is called 3:2 pull down. The way they do it is to insert frames or repeat a frame here and there to convert 24 to 60Hz/fps. For example take a 24fps movie and look at the first 6 frames (one fourth cycle}. What happens is on the first frame it gets repeated 3 times followed by the second frame which gets repeated 2 times and now the third frame repeated three times. Starting with frame one you get 3+2+3+2+3+2 (total of 6 frames or one fourth of 24 frames) = 15 frames times 4 =60 frames (remember we are looking at only 1/4 of 24 frames). This off cadence summing is what causes judder and mostly shows up in a movie when the camera does a slow pan resulting in an image that tends to be jerky (not a smooth pan).
I hope this was not too confusing lol. :)

TV's display at 60hz (or 60 fps if you like). Movies are filmed and encoded at 24Hz so that needs to be converted to 60Hz and they do this with what is called 3:2 pull down. The way they do it is to insert frames or repeat a frame here and there to convert 24 to 60Hz/fps. For example take a 24fps movie and look at the first 6 frames (one fourth cycle}. What happens is on the first frame it gets repeated 3 times followed by the second frame which gets repeated 2 times and now the third frame repeated three times. Starting with frame one you get 3+2+3+2+3+2 (total of 6 frames or one fourth of 24 frames) = 15 frames times 4 =60 frames (remember we are looking at only 1/4 of 24 frames). This off cadence summing is what causes judder and mostly shows up in a movie when the camera does a slow pan resulting in an image that tends to be jerky (not a smooth pan).
I hope this was not too confusing lol. :)


Robert, that was a great explanation.

Are there any new television technologies (plasma or lcd) that will treat this disease better or compensate for it better?

Robert, that was a great explanation.

Are there any new television technologies (plasma or lcd) that will treat this disease better or compensate for it better?

The Pioneer plasma HDTV's will accept a 24Hz input and output at 72Hz (they perform a 3:3 pull down). This eliminates judder and is the correct way to display 24Hz movies imo. I know the upcoming Toshiba and Samsung 120Hz LCD's will accept a 24Hz input however I'm still trying to find out if they will do a 5:5 pull down and directly display at 120Hz or if they simply perform a 3:2 pull down to 60Hz and then just double that to 120Hz thus introducing judder. Also I believe there are some front projectors that will output 72Hz like the Pioneer plasma's.

Of course we could start another speculation thread as to when 70" LCD will fall under $7k. It is hard to believe 5" from Sharp's 65" to 70" costs about $55k (also considering 63" plasmas are under $3k). I think it would be a little upsetting if you forked over $63k this year to see it be $10k next year. The $63k is obviously just a charge what we want because we can price. If they are predicting a 52" inch panel size being $1k at the end of next year (samsung on their new factory), then you could just take the whole 8gen sheet and make 1 TV panel for $6k.

The $63K price is just an offer for moguls of this world ready for splurging excesses of money to be on top. On the other hand there is excellent 65" LCD from Sharp for $10k and there are several 65 inchers coming from Taiwanese manufacturers. No one without a problem of how to spent mountains of money will be ready to pay additional 50 grands for 5" more glass area. Samsung may count on selling, say, 100 of the 70" to the moguls and then will have to adjust the price to normal market levels. This should be within the next year.

The most interesting question is if the Samsung 70" LCD is indeed an absolutely perfect display. If it is that will be fine proof that perfect Lcd can be now produced. But with slightest PQ imprefection its price will be a joke.

The $63K price is just an offer for moguls of this world ready for splurging excesses of money to be on top. On the other hand there is excellent 65" LCD from Sharp for $10k and there are several 65 inchers coming from Taiwanese manufacturers. No one without a problem of how to spent mountains of money will be ready to pay additional 50 grands for 5" more glass area. Samsung may count on selling, say, 100 of the 70" to the moguls and then will have to adjust the price to normal market levels. This should be within the next year.

The most interesting question is if the Samsung 70" LCD is indeed an absolutely perfect display. If it is that will be fine proof that perfect Lcd can be now produced. But with slightest PQ imprefection its price will be a joke.
I know this is way off topic, but if you are one of the 100, then I suggest you buy the 70" sony lcd at $33k (http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/CategoryDisplay?catalogId=10551&storeId=10151&langId=-1&categoryId=28844) , in which case you could afford two!

I know this is way off topic, but if you are one of the 100, then I suggest you buy the 70" sony lcd at $33k (http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/CategoryDisplay?catalogId=10551&storeId=10151&langId=-1&categoryId=28844) , in which case you could afford two!

The sony does not have locally dimming LED backlight which adds 30k to the price :p

Hmm 52" for 3k get LED local dimming = $33k using that logic... :eek:

TV's display at 60hz (or 60 fps if you like). Movies are filmed and encoded at 24Hz so that needs to be converted to 60Hz and they do this with what is called 3:2 pull down. The way they do it is to insert frames or repeat a frame here and there to convert 24 to 60Hz/fps. For example take a 24fps movie and look at the first 6 frames (one fourth cycle}. What happens is on the first frame it gets repeated 3 times followed by the second frame which gets repeated 2 times and now the third frame repeated three times. Starting with frame one you get 3+2+3+2+3+2 (total of 6 frames or one fourth of 24 frames) = 15 frames times 4 =60 frames (remember we are looking at only 1/4 of 24 frames). This off cadence summing is what causes judder and mostly shows up in a movie when the camera does a slow pan resulting in an image that tends to be jerky (not a smooth pan).
I hope this was not too confusing lol. :)

Ok you had me at first, but then once you started talking about cadence summing causing judder you kind of lost me again. But so you're saying then it's running at 120khz then really, it just requires a new method of pulldown for something still running at 24khz, rather than it helping any? it would seem like that me as far as i still understand this whole conversion issue (or how a tv even really knows that the video playing is a certain amount of frames).

besides, didnt CRT tubes also run at 60hz? i thought they did, yet it doesnt sound like they needed 3:2 pulldown?

A little off topic, but I just wanted to note this. Today I couldn't get to the USA Samsung site by using samsung.com. I'm from Canada and it kept redirecting me to the Canadian version. When I finally got to the USA site it looked completely different than yesterday. It looks like they're doing an overhaul.

I know it's a long shot, but hopefully they throw up info on the 81 series while they're at it.

A little off topic, but I just wanted to note this. Today I couldn't get to the USA Samsung site by using samsung.com. I'm from Canada and it kept redirecting me to the Canadian version. When I finally got to the USA site it looked completely different than yesterday. It looks like they're doing an overhaul.

I know it's a long shot, but hopefully they throw up info on the 81 series while they're at it.

The Samsung USA site is working now but your right it has been redesigned. Still no 71/81 series up yet. :confused:

A very interesting comparison on CNET of hte Samsung 46" LCDs 65 vs. 61, matte vs glossy.

http://sfgate-cnet.com.com/flat-panel-and-plasma/samsung-ln-t4661f/4505-6482_7-32385769.html?tag=txt

I sure hope the 81 series give us a choice, but am not optimistic.

Richard

The Samsung USA site is working now but your right it has been redesigned. Still no 71/81 series up yet. :confused:

The new site is rather neat though.

Hopefully this is leading to the introduction of a killer product :)

For Non-US residents, you have to click on your country to bypass the automatic redirect on the top of the page.

...besides, didnt CRT tubes also run at 60hz? i thought they did, yet it doesnt sound like they needed 3:2 pulldown?
Bingo. WHich is why the slow 24p bothers me more than inverse telecine. The judder at a theater bothers me about the same as judder on my CRT. (Your CRT is getting a 60i signal made from 24p which is interlaced 3:2.)

Re 3:2. Film is 24p, projected at 48p. 24p means each image is displayed for 41.7milliseconds. (24x41.7msec=1 second.) A standard 60Hz TV will display the first image(frame) twice (16.7ms+16.7ms=33.4ms), which is a little less than 41.7msec, and frame #2 3 times (3x16.7=50ms), which is a little more than 41.7ms. (This more/less is like limping, and it's called judder.) So the first two frames take the same amount of time for film or TV (2x41.7ms=83.4ms=33.4ms+50ms.) Note that for a 120Hz TV, which displays each frame 1/120sec= 8.3, 5x8.3ms=41.7, the same as 24p displayed at 24p, so no 3:2 judder.

Good explianations of 24 fps, judder and 60 + 120 Hz guys!

Here is another well worth reading paper on LED BLU for you too study while waiting on the new sets
http://www.opticsvalley.com/resources/kbasePDF/wp_sid_009_high_brightness.pdf

By the way, what heppend with these sets?
http://compoundsemiconductor.net/articles/news/8/8/16

Wow there is no doubt more action happening in some of our grand parents' bedrooms than in this thread ... Samsung really needs to start feeding us some Samsung hype as Im getting hungry for it ...

Ive seen some of you in the Toshiba Regza thread as well .... seems like the 52 inch rig is going to run $4500 CAD (0.95 cent exchange rate), not sure what its selling for state side ... anyhow the point is that there is a new non-LED backlit 52 inch LCD TV going for over 4 grand which will directly compete with the 71 series so there is little doubt in my mind that the 81 series will go WELL above 4 grand, still thinking the 5-6 grand range. I think that guy who was offering free 52 inch 81 series tvs to those who bet it would be over 4 grand should start writing some cheques ..... Not much luck that the 81 series will be selling for anywhere near that unless we fast forward 18-24 months.

Zsolt

so do we think that the 42in 81 series will go for more than 3 grand

they're doing 42? i thought most, if not all, LCD makers do 40" (that's one of the reason i didnt go to plasma, as 40" was just the right size, i didnt really want to go smaller, but it was already pushing it size wise so i didnt want to go any bigger, not even 2 inches).

they're doing 42? i thought most, if not all, LCD makers do 40" (that's one of the reason i didnt go to plasma, as 40" was just the right size, i didnt really want to go smaller, but it was already pushing it size wise so i didnt want to go any bigger, not even 2 inches).
I think someone has confused Samsung plasma with LCD. I don't recall seeing 81 series in a 42" - every article references 40" as the starting point and no 42" and so I think some have confused the Plasma being discussed in the joint articles. Just checked and there are no 42" LCD's in Samsung line only plasma. :)

well maybe it is 40 i thought 42 was a standard size

A very interesting comparison on CNET of hte Samsung 46" LCDs 65 vs. 61, matte vs glossy.

http://sfgate-cnet.com.com/flat-panel-and-plasma/samsung-ln-t4661f/4505-6482_7-32385769.html?tag=txt

I sure hope the 81 series give us a choice, but am not optimistic.

RichardDavid Katzmaier is really an excellent reviewer IMO. His statements are right on with my experience, from the styling excellence of the 4661 to its deep blacks but poor off axis performance. He has really hit the mark lately IMO.

Last time I called CSR the word was all panels will be glossy but they are working on reducing glare. I just wish Samsung would reconsider making the 5261, I'd get it tomorrow and give the 4661 to family member.

well maybe it is 40 i thought 42 was a standard size

42" is a standard size for plasma. There are no 40" plasmas.
40" AND 42" are common size among lcds. Not sure if one size is considered more "standard" than the other among lcds, but there are many examples of both in the lcd category.

We need some breaking news on the availability and pricing of these sets! :)

yes, yes we do, seems like im waiting the summer out anyways for the release and reviews of these new displays as well as the new AVRs.

this is going to be one expensive upgrade just to get into hd dvd and blu ray :)

ok! breaking news samsung 71 and 81 series has been cancelled!! Go get a 65 series and be happy! lol jk.

Sounds like the 71/81 series are now in the same boat as SED TV. Hope not!

I talked to Samsung today...
Looks like Sept they will be comming out,there were adament about NOT losing Xmas sales

I love the 4665F but this 81 series looks to blow its doors off...
Decisions,decisions....

I talked to Samsung today...
Looks like Sept they will be comming out,there were adament about NOT losing Xmas sales

I love the 4665F but this 81 series looks to blow its doors off...
Decisions,decisions....

Any idea if the price range for the various models will be similar/close to the current xx65F sets?

Any idea if the price range for the various models will be similar/close to the current xx65F sets?

Don't count on it. The 71's will be more expensive and the 81's will probably be a lot more expensive than the 71's.

I talked to Samsung today...
Looks like Sept they will be comming out,there were adament about NOT losing Xmas sales

I love the 4665F but this 81 series looks to blow its doors off...
Decisions,decisions....

Well, looks like they are going to miss the beginning of Football Season grrrrrrrrrrr.
If they would just give some damn prices I could make some decisions.

They had no pricing,In the end I just bought the 4665F
I think I will be very happy with it

Well, looks like they are going to miss the beginning of Football Season grrrrrrrrrrr.
If they would just give some damn prices I could make some decisions.

Just in time for the big gaming season though. I'll bet the releases of several outstanding titles in sept/oct would make these dates hard to miss for a LCD maker. The release of Halo 3 has been *hyped* up to be the largest entertainment release ever.

Samsung is in a favorable position right now on the market. Their displays are good and their prices attractive. They probably don't feel the same amount of pressure other manufacturers have in releasing upcoming sets information. That being set, I'm sure they understand all too well to sit on their current generation of products.

I think of technology in cycles. My HD display "cycle" started about a year plus ago. That puts my considering a new set starting in late 08.Which would be roughly when a possible second generation LED backlight sets may start popping up. So while I want to know what's with 71 and 81's, if actual information happens by September, that's fine. Besides, Samsung has seemingly stopped putting in cable card slots and I do NOT like that (might 71s or 81s have them???).

Not sure if this is old news around this thread, but it's news to me. This article on Gizmodo says that the 46" 81 series will have a MSRP of $3,500. Gizmodo article (http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/field-notes/hands-on-with-samsungs-newest-tv-tech-wi+fi-plasma-led+backlight-lcd-and-120hz-blur-reduction-277438.php)

That's a lot less than I expected for this technology, if this really is the local-dimming panel.

Not sure if this is old news around this thread, but it's news to me. This article on Gizmodo says that the 46" 81 series will have a MSRP of $3,500. Gizmodo article (http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/field-notes/hands-on-with-samsungs-newest-tv-tech-wi+fi-plasma-led+backlight-lcd-and-120hz-blur-reduction-277438.php)

That's a lot less than I expected for this technology, if this really is the local-dimming panel.
If that is the MSRP price for 46" of the 81 series (4681F), then it would be less than 3K in stores.

I was expecting something well north of $3,500 MSRP for the 46", based on what I'd read in this thread.

wow if thats true i wonder what the price of the 40in will be

If that is the MSRP price for 46" of the 81 series (4681F), then it would be less than 3K in stores.

I'd like to see some verification before I get my hopes up. If it is indeed true, then there's no way I'm passing this up. Either way, it looks like it's coming soon.

WOW, I hope gizmodo isn't blowing smoke up our asses. Thats freaking great. MSRP $3500 means it will be well under $3k.

http://www.twice.com/article/CA6459449.html

The first page has been updated with MSRPs.

Like the 71 series, the 81 series models include 1080p resolution and 120Hz frame using Samsung’s Auto Motion PlusLED technology. The Auto Motion Plus system is implemented “a little bit differently,” than in the 71 series models, employing the LED quadrant scanning system, said Ali Atash, Samsung LCD product manager.

So it looks like 81 series will have 120Hz technology after all.

WOW, I hope gizmodo isn't blowing smoke up our asses. Thats freaking great. MSRP $3500 means it will be well under $3k.

They're blowing something because they're off by $500.

Pardon me if I missed it, but did they make any mention other than "holidays" for when the 71/81 series comes out? They say October for the wi-fi plasma model, but I didn't see anything about the LCDs.

Just a couple things I noticed:

the Gizmodo article linked above seems to imply that the model they saw had 60-70 "clusters" of LED's that could be dimmed/brightened. I'm a little worried about that -- Brightside used 1400 LED's total, and I thought each could be controlled individually. If Samsung's 81 series has cut the screen into 70 brightness regions instead of Brightide's 1400, that sounds like quite a difference to me.


Also, off topic...but according to the twice.com article linked above, the new Samsung sets have:

a below-screen-mounted “blue sunset” design using a blue-light element below the screen. The light can be dimmed or shut off it preferred.

Man...I sure am glad they let you turn off the light. I'm so tired of the little power-LED's blazing away on all my TV's and computer monitors. In a dark room, during a dark scene, those little LED's are brighter than the screen. Glad Samsung lets you turn theirs off.

engadget has a listing on it as well

So psyched about the 81!!!!

Pardon me if I missed it, but did they make any mention other than "holidays" for when the 71/81 series comes out? They say October for the wi-fi plasma model, but I didn't see anything about the LCDs.

Engadget is stating August for both models. Which probably means late September, early October Samsung time.

Time for me to leave avsforum or wind up selling a 30-day old tv :D

100000:1 contrast ratio! Yes! Finally. Here's the engadget link (they've also got pics):
http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/11/samsung-announces-71-81-series-1080p-lcd-hdtvs/

Wow, looking at the rest of the engadget website it looks like Samsung is doing a lot of press releases for new products today.

One of the articles talked about a limited distribution for the 81s. I wonder if Magnolia counts as a high-end AV retailer (I want that return policy just in case)?

did anyone notice that both 71 and 81 series are 8ms responce time.^

did anyone notice that both 71 and 81 series are 8ms responce time.^

yes

This is bad... I just spent $2k on a TV a few months ago, and now this. If the 81 series is all it's cracked up to be, I may end up with one early next year. My credit card companies will be thrilled.

yes


Is this good or bad?This thread has gotten very anti-climactic since the numbers are now upon us.Ill be buying the 40" 81s most likely at these prices.

So from this pic is the reflection from the lights look like it has a glossy screen?

This is bad... I just spent $2k on a TV a few months ago, and now this. If the 81 series is all it's cracked up to be, I may end up with one early next year. My credit card companies will be thrilled.

Yes, lol, it is a crazy industry. I hope they ship next month (as stated) so the prices can start dropping before football is too far into the season.

"Stepping up is the 81 series, which will receive a protected distribution policy targeting A/V specialty dealers, installers and sales-driven regional accounts."

WTF is this? Any idea?

So from this pic is the reflection from the lights look like it has a glossy screen?

yes, looks like the glossy screen to me

"Stepping up is the 81 series, which will receive a protected distribution policy targeting A/V specialty dealers, installers and sales-driven regional accounts."

WTF is this? Any idea?

They want to maintain their price point for as long as possible, which is why I will be going with the 71......or, maybe they just cannot produce that many to start, but the effect on price is the same.

Is this good or bad?This thread has gotten very anti-climactic since the numbers are now upon us.Ill be buying the 40" 81s most likely at these prices.

8ms is pretty much industry standard now, unless you get a really cheap set. there are some faster sets, but with 120hz it shouldnt matter.

Yes, lol, it is a crazy industry. I hope they ship next month (as stated) so the prices can start dropping before football is too far into the season.

So, you are skipping Toshiba FullHD LX177 since looks like there is still that green push with the new model and jumping back on 71 again, stud? :D

Is this good or bad?This thread has gotten very anti-climactic since the numbers are now upon us.Ill be buying the 40" 81s most likely at these prices.
As far as I'm concerned, it's a non-factor. All LCD's these days have approximately an 8ms response time; I was more concerned about cost, and whether it would have 120Hz frame and 10-bit processing, which it supposedly does. On paper this panel looks like it's going to be superb... now we just need to wait and see if looks as good up close and personal as it does on paper.

Just a couple things I noticed:

the Gizmodo article linked above seems to imply that the model they saw had 60-70 "clusters" of LED's that could be dimmed/brightened. I'm a little worried about that -- Brightside used 1400 LED's total, and I thought each could be controlled individually. If Samsung's 81 series has cut the screen into 70 brightness regions instead of Brightide's 1400, that sounds like quite a difference to me.



Well for one thing it is confirmed they are using BrightSide tech in the 81's as they would be violating the patents which Dolby now owns. In terms of the low rez LED matrix I am positive it is driven by a cost/performance trade off. We don't have access to the engineering data to know what kind of subjective improvement in performance occurs as the resolution of the LED matrix increases. It makes logic sense that a high resolution matrix is better at handling fast motion. Also the overall color accuracy and depth should be better as well. I am sure we will find out in the future as Sharp and the rest of the competition steps into the drama of HDR displays.

yes, looks like the glossy screen to me
My understanding from reading previous articles is that it's going to be semi-gloss... not totally flat like the 61's, but not as glossy as the 65's.

So from this pic is the reflection from the lights look like it has a glossy screen?I've seen the same reflection in pictures of non-reflective screens on RPTV sets. A flash that is perpendicular to the screen will overcome most anti-reflective screens. I'd say, "Wait and see." ;)

"Stepping up is the 81 series, which will receive a protected distribution policy targeting A/V specialty dealers, installers and sales-driven regional accounts."

WTF is this? Any idea?Samsung has always had a two level marketing plan for their DLP sets. Many times there was no significant difference between the models except price.

I expect to see the 71 series in BB, CC, Fry's type big box operations. The 81 series should be in stores at the level of Magnolia Audio-Video or Tweeter. The BB stores with a Magnolia Home Theater department will probably also have the 81 models,

Right now I'm confused about how to sell the 57" 81 to my wife for $3,000 more than the 52" set.

So, you are skipping Toshiba FullHD LX177 since looks like there is still that green push with the new model and jumping back on 71 again, stud? :D

lol, I am still looking at both, and the 65 for that matter. If this set is shipped next month and has quick price drops (for the 71) and no major problems, then it is at the top of my list. If it ships later, then all bets are off. Of course, I haven't seen either yet (tosh or 71) so of course that is going to be the ultimate factor in my decision. But yes, the 71 would be my choice over the 81, as it addresses all my concerns, has 25k:1 CR, and will drop in price much quicker than the limited release 81.

One of the articles talked about a limited distribution for the 81s. I wonder if Magnolia counts as a high-end AV retailer (I want that return policy just in case)?
They counted last year when the 57" Samsung had exclusive distribution for a few months at Mag stores nationwide and then it was released to others - Samsung won't have much competition in this new area so controllilng distributin maximizes profits - it'll take competition or something like Sharps banding to bring down it's price for awhile, damn it would be nice to have a panel without some type of bullshit problem.

Can't wait to see what these spec's can deliver and where is Conan and will he remain in denial until Samsung does the press release? ;)

Samsung has always had a two level marketing plan for their DLP sets. Many times there was no significant difference between the models except price.

I expect to see the 71 series in BB, CC, Fry's type big box operations. The 81 series should be in stores at the level of Magnolia Audio-Video or Tweeter. The BB stores with a Magnolia Home Theater department will probably also have the 81 models,

Right now I'm confused about how to sell the 57" 81 to my wife for $3,000 more than the 52" set.
2K more... chump change.

Just a couple things I noticed:
the Gizmodo article linked above seems to imply that the model they saw had 60-70 "clusters" of LED's that could be dimmed/brightened. I'm a little worried about that -- Brightside used 1400 LED's total, and I thought each could be controlled individually. If Samsung's 81 series has cut the screen into 70 brightness regions instead of Brightide's 1400, that sounds like quite a difference to me.
You're right. 81 series is not a true IMLED yet.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10697199&&#post10697199
(click on the link to a paper I refer to as it seems to explain everything)

You're right. 81 series is not a true IMLED yet.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10697199&&#post10697199
(click on the link to a paper I refer to as it seems to explain everything)
Did they ever quote it as such and what are your credentials? If you don't like the spec's then move on will ya! Take it for what it's been described as for the past 7 months and the Euro release last August not how you define it. :cool:

Did they ever quote it as such and what are your credentials? If you don't like the spec's then move on will ya! Take it for what it's been described as for the past 7 months and the Euro release last August not how you define it. :cool:
Who said I didn't like the specs? After all I started this thread, didn't I? :confused:

It's a Samsung paper. Are you suggesting "local dimming" technology described in the paper differs from "local dimming" technology in 81 series?

sweet deal, lets hope they become available soon, im tired of waiting for this and the onkyo denon 875/3808, decisions decisions, but yet it doesn't hurt to wait till the start of the fall tv season since its all SD reruns during the summer

does any one have width dimensions on the 40in 81 series

Ok, now starts the predictions for actual ship dates, lol

hahahahahahaha. I still don't see an official press release from Samsung. This is just a late April fools joke turd munchers :D

I hope to GOD this is all true. If it is then I will be owning one of these SOBs (pending reviews of course) by years end.

Did who ever quote what and who said I didn't like the specs? After all I started this thread, didn't I? :confused:
(BTW, it's a Samsung paper)

It is BrightSide technology either way. The patent is pretty explicit. Any LCD panel with dynamic dimming locally or otherwise would be subject to their patents. It might not be IMLED, but it is still going to be the first consumer level HDR display.

Ok, now starts the predictions for actual ship dates, lol

The day after I finally buy my first HD set because I got tired of waiting.

It is BrightSide technology either way. The patent is pretty explicit. Any LCD panel with dynamic dimming locally or otherwise would be subject to their patents. It might not be IMLED, but it is still going to be the first consumer level HDR display.
I'm not sure locally dimmed sets deserve HDR label (IMLED sets definitely will) but I agree that these tvs represent a big step forward in PQ. Can't wait to see them at the store.

I just wish there wasn't a huge jump in price from 52" to 57". Unfortunately, size and price is definetely not linear with TVs. Settling for a 57" for great PQ is one thing (from my desired 60" or so), but dropping to 52" to fit my budget.....decisions, decisions. Who knew most of the drama with HD...isn't on TV.

I really dont like this glossy screen garbage, I want one sooo bad but why the gloss!!!.... We are dealing with a glossy Panel here, not just the bezel right? Id like to find the person in behind that descision and shoot them.

I'm not sure locally dimmed sets deserve HDR label (IMLED sets definitely will) but I agree that these tvs represent a big step forward in PQ. Can't wait to see them at the store.

That is true. It really depends on the maximum candelas of the LEDs being used. One of the things about the BrightSide tech is they used very high candela LEDs that had to be liquid cooled. Tis certain Samsung is not using such LEDs in the 81s. If we knew the measured peak luminescence of the 81s we would have a better idea. Hard to say as the stated CR is just garbage data anyway. Minimum and peak luminescence is always a better and a more reliable measurement. The peak luminescence of the 81 should still be much higher than what we have been accustomed to thus far. Given that it would definitely in the direction towards HDR.

It does meet one requirement of an HDR display in that one area can be near true black while another can be near 100% peak luminescence at any time. It is definitely not as good as IMLED since on average IMLED will be able to achieve a higher luminescence with any given source.

Using high candela LEDs will likely be the key focus in making improvements to this technology over the next few generations.

I really dont like this glossy screen garbage, I want one sooo bad but why the gloss!!!.... We are dealing with a glossy Panel here, not just the bezel right? Id like to find the person in behind that descision and shoot them.Another option would be hanging, I'll gladly supply the rope.

The 61 series are beautifully designed, decent contrast, but no 52" - we have only gloss in 52", and I'd bet Samsung will discontinue the 61 series, so I'll be picking up another real quick for a family member.

Glossy screen garbage - you are so right. Idiots !!!

That is true. It really depends maximum candelas of the LEDs being used. One of the things about the BrightSide tech is they used very high candela LEDs that had to be liquid cooled. Tis certain Samsung is not using such LEDs in the 81s.
Yes, it turns out even though lumens/watt spec for new LEDs gets better and better, I guess it's still too expensive to bring Brightside-type BLU to mass market.
If we knew the measured peak luminescence of the 81s we would have a better idea. Hard to say as the stated CR is just garbage data anyway.
Probably. The paper I referred to earlier suggests static CR of up to 20K:1 depending on a scene pattern. It still should be plenty for almost anyone while IMLED displays should have no problem achieving infinite CR.

It does meet one requirement of an HDR display in that one area can be near true black while another can be near 100% peak luminescence at any time. It is definitely not as good as IMLED since on average IMLED will be able to achieve a higher luminescence with any given source.
With local dimming it seems (after reading the paper) like there's always going to be some light bleeding from one individually modulated block to other blocks so we'll have to wait for true blacks until these blocks get smaller but perhaps it might be possible to achieve those true blacks even before the blocks shrink to IMLED levels, that is, where 1 block corresponds to one LED.

Using high candela LEDs will likely be the key focus in making improvements to this technology over the next few generations.
Yes. Next generations should also improve on block sizes and the number of LEDs. We should also expect sequential color to be included in these sets at some point. I wonder how these improvements will translate to improvements in PQ.

Anyone know the dimensions of the 40-71 or 40-81 series LCD's?

I hate every person on this forum that speculated that the 81s would be in the 5kk plus \price range

becuz of u I have a 4065 which I paid nearly 2800 with 4year warantee (canada)

now what the hell am I gonna do\if the 81 murders my tv for a 500 dollars more

Looks like the 81/possibly 71 are 65 series clones in style.
Fat bezel, dumbo ear speakers ... idiots.

Yeah, I really am quite shocked at how wide the panels are. It does look just like the 65 series which is already 41" wide and now with the speakers it looks like 43". It looks like the pioneer elites of 2005-2006.

I thought the whole idea was starting to be to shrink down the bezels as much as possible in order for people to purchase bigger sizes and the company to make more of a profit. For example the new Mitsubishi 40" 1080P lcd which is only 37" in width and I know the new JVC's are doing the same.

Hopefully next yrs. high-end models will feature speakers on the bottom and be alot less wide, cause it may be when I buy one.

Anyone else disappointed by the 81 specs?

Anyone else disappointed by the 81 specs?
ahahahahahahahahahaa


Pathetic

i cant believe somone can complain about a 20k CR and 100k Dyn CR


whats there to be dissapointed with?
specs are fine

speakers are ugly and screen is still shiny unfortunately

Ugly?

Pathetic. LMAO

ugly as in too wide
but that wont\ shouldnt stop people from buying this set

but honestly how the hell can u complain about the specs what else do you want?
if the LED dimming backlight Technology doesnt perform this set could flop
but as far as specs go its got them

I guarantee the PQ of this set will be about 5-10% less than the OLED sets coming up
And after they come out, TVs will all be even more similar in PQ than they already are getting to be

im concerened I may end up with a 71 series. I dont want to spend the extra $1000 it will cost for the 81 (canada)

Definitely going to wait for the 81 Series or atleast have the 71 Series as an alternate choice. Woo-hoo! :D

Did I forget to add a matching Samsung BD-P2400 to go with the 81 Series in Oct? Sweet!

I guarantee the PQ of this set will be about 5-10% less than the OLED sets coming up And after they come out, TVs will all be even more similar in PQ than they already are getting to be

You shouldn't be too hasty too discount the BrightSide technology so fast. On paper it is actually capable of color depth and accuracy that surpasses even OLED. Sure the 81s are going to be trumped in PQ (assuming it is better than the 71s), but the cost of this tech is going to be very competitive. The question is how well it will perform. If performance is similar then cost will decide at the end of the day. It always does for the average consumer.

In terms of engineering it is much easier to build on a current technology than it is to build something entirely new. Given that alone OLED has more barriers to entering the 40"+ consumer display market.

I agree

Im just saying when the time comes and OLED are affordable to manufacture and are available to the mainstream.
After\when all this happens, we are going to see less and less increases in quality, because these sets are nearly that good already

QUESTIONS That need to be answered by Samsung

Are the LEDs white, or are they RGB clusters?
If so, how many Clusters are there?
Since the LEDs are controlled in blocks, rather than individually, how many LEDs in a Block?
Are the response times of the LEDs the same/faster than the LCD pixels themselves?
How can we be assured that the algorythims can deceiver the image and use the appropriat BL level?
How can we be assured that there will not be a grey halo surrounding a white star against a black sky?
Will there be a halo around 2.4:1 content that has letterboxing?
Will the constantly changing Dynamic Contrast Ratio cause the viewers Pupils to be in constant adjustment.


I have seen the Locally Dimmed 40inch 768p LCD that Samsung showed at CES. It was very impressive, BUT it was shown in a lit enviroment, I am confident that these sets work fine in such an enviroment, as the contrast differences between leaking areas and the unlit areas reflecting the ambient light is too small to be percieved. But in a dimm room, it could be completely different.

100000:1 contrast ratio! Yes! Finally. Here's the engadget link (they've also got pics):
http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/11/samsung-announces-71-81-series-1080p-lcd-hdtvs/

Wow, looking at the rest of the engadget website it looks like Samsung is doing a lot of press releases for new products today.

I'm surprised to see the 8ms response; aren't most of the newer LCDs coming out at 4ms? I thought that was the whole point of 120Hz.

My HDTV decision will be between:
• 46" Samsung 81 series
• 47" Philips 120Hz Ambilight 2
• 46" Samsung 71 series

I think I'll have to see all of these TVs in action before I decide.

Are the LEDs white, or are they RGB clusters?
Definitely RGB LEDs.

If so, how many Clusters are there?
Gizmodo reports "60 or 70".

The rest I'm not 100% sure about.

I really dont like this glossy screen garbage, I want one sooo bad but why the gloss!!!.... We are dealing with a glossy Panel here, not just the bezel right? Id like to find the person in behind that descision and shoot them.

I couldn't agree more

ahahahahahahahahahaa


Pathetic

i cant believe somone can complain about a 20k CR and 100k Dyn CR


whats there to be dissapointed with?
specs are fine

speakers are ugly and screen is still shiny unfortunately


Where do you see 20K CR, I only see 100k din CR?

Suddenly, this thread gets active (real busy) again... :D

Suddenly, this thread gets active (real busy) again... :D

That's good! :D

Unless I read the article wrong, why do only the new plasma's get wifi and not the 71/81 lcd series?

I'm surprised to see the 8ms response; aren't most of the newer LCDs coming out at 4ms? I thought that was the whole point of 120Hz.

My HDTV decision will be between:
• 46" Samsung 81 series
• 47" Philips 120Hz Ambilight 2
• 46" Samsung 71 series

I think I'll have to see all of these TVs in action before I decide.

I'll respond with a quote from lcd-bob on this subject from the Vizio 52" thread. Could put you at ease regarding the response time.

Blurring is now measured by a new Spec called MPRT, Motion Picture Response Time. Doubling refresh rate on the new Vizio from 60 to 120 hz makes a huge improvement in fast action blurring. This will help the ghosting on a moving ticker, etc. [lcd-bob]
http://www.jvc.com/press/index.jsp?item=588&pageID=1
HIGH-SPEED [120hz] LCD TV TECHNOLOGY
An indication of TV's ability to deliver sharp images is panel’s Motion Picture Response Time ( MPRT). Though liquid crystal response time has long been used as a measure of LCD TV performance, JVC considers MPRT, a new measurement gaining wider use, to be a better performance indicator. MPRT measures the rate of image blurring and is based on how the human eye perceives speed. A faster MPRT means less blurring.

JVC research shows that for any given liquid crystal response time, the MPRT will be significantly better at 120Hz than at 60Hz. In addition, the improvement is more apparent at lower response times.
A 120Hz-driven LCD panel with an eight millisecond [8ms] liquid crystal response time will achieve an MPRT figure that’s superior to a 60Hz-driven panel with a [0 ms] zero millisecond liquid crystal response time. As a result, the 120Hz panel will have less blurring of moving images.

wow if thats true i wonder what the price of the 40in will be

That's the one I want but it HAS top be less than 39" wide. Heaven help me if it's not and I've waited this long to pull the trigger on a new TV.

Keep my fingers crossed. :D

That's the one I want but it HAS top be less than 39" wide. Heaven help me if it's not and I've waited this long to pull the trigger on a new TV.

Keep my fingers crossed. :D

Unless they have 2 different models like the 65/66, it looks like they both will be around 41 inches. I saw where both the 71/81 have side speakers. I also need a tv at 39 inches.

Anyone know the dimensions of the 40-71 or 40-81 series LCD's?

I second the motion on this request.

Unless they have 2 different models like the 65/66, it looks like they both will be around 41 inches. I saw where both the 71/81 have side speakers. I also need a tv at 39 inches.

Excuse my language, but "damn it!"

I guess I'll mosey on over to the Pioneer plasma board to see what they have to offer. :(

Excuse my language, but "damn it!"

I guess I'll mosey on over to the Pioneer plasma board to see what they have to offer. :(

Here's the article piece:
In LCD TV, the company presented two new big-screen model lines in the 71 and 81 series. Sets in both series feature cosmetic designs that are similar to Samsung's popular “Bordeaux Plus” gloss black look, but feature slimmer bezels, and ultra-thin side-firing speakers. In addition to the side-firing speakers, the series includes a subwoofer mounted on the back of the panel to enhance bass sound response.

I'm hoping they have 2 different models like the 65's. Not sure what ultra-thin means but maybe that might reduce it to 40 inches wide for the side speakers. I'd be real interested in seeing the specs and specific models.

To say the glossy screen is junk is stupid,U have the 61 and the 65 and this gives u the option as to what type of screen you'll need depending on your room,lighting..IMO the 65 which I bought BLOWS the 61 out of the water in a room with less light,its CR is better and its blacks and whites are better..

I really wanted a 46inch 81 series but I paid under 22XX for my 4665F,to spend another 1600 for the 81 technology for me wouldnt be wise even if it is a better unit...

Can we assume the video processing in these guys will be the same chip used in the 65 series?

why do only the new plasma's get wifi and not the 71/81 lcd series? Good question - I was disappointed by that, too. According to Gizmondo, the 71/81 series has Bluetooth. Obviously that's a far cry from 802.11n. About all you could use Bluetooth for would be remote control or wireless headphones. 802.11n can stream HD.

so roughly how long does it take for a price drop? a 40" 81 series would be sweet, but with an estimabed $3000 price point how long do you think it would take for it to reach the high $1000's, low $2000's range?

so roughly how long does it take for a price drop? a 40" 81 series would be sweet, but with an estimabed $3000 price point how long do you think it would take for it to reach the high $1000's, low $2000's range?

Probably right around the holiday season!

Nothing I've read says the 81 will have a 120Mhz refresh rate. Two things I am disturbed by, no cable card slot and glossy screen.

Probably right around the holiday season!
sweet! I was hoping to get a 4061F but with the specs on the 71, and 81 series I just might hold off and save up a bit more to save up for one of those. :cool:

Nothing I've read says the 81 will have a 120Mhz refresh rate. Two things I am disturbed by, no cable card slot and glossy screen.

read the following link

http://www.twice.com/article/CA6459449.html

Something I don't see anyone discussing, and was a big surprise to me, is according to that twice article the 71 series is CCFL backlit. Is this accurate or a mistake? I thought the 71 and 81 were both supposed to be LED backlit with local dimming, not just the 81 series. Keep that in mind when making your decisions on what TV to buy.


The 71 series, which will receive open distribution, features 1080p resolution, a 120Hz “Auto Motion Plus” frame rate system based on interpolation techniques to smooth out fast motion images, CCFL backlighting, and three HDMI v1.3 inputs with x.v.YCC expanded color gamut capability.

From the link dogmandoo posted:

"Other features include Samsung’s Super Clear Panel technology"

Arrgh! This is the glossy screen, just like the 5265! Is this a deal killer for anyone else but me? Even with dim room lighting, you'll see reflections in dark scenes, especially if you wear light colored clothing. For some people this may be OK, it's just like existing Plasma/CRT reflections, but I think one big advantage of non-glossy LCD's is the diffusion of reflections.

It looks like my only hope is the Sony XBR4/5, also a Samsung panel, and hopefully not glossy like the Samsung branded ones.

-Joe

Something I don't see anyone discussing, and was a big surprise to me, is according to that twice article the 71 series is CCFL backlit. Is this accurate or a mistake? I thought the 71 and 81 were both supposed to be LED backlit with local dimming, not just the 81 series. Keep that in mind when making your decisions on what TV to buy.


It was always know that the 71 would be CCFL. The improvement over the 61/65 series was the 120Hz frame interpolation.

Only the 81 series has LED backlighting with local dimming.

I REALLY hope they have reduced the glare on the superclear panel. Otherwise I will have to look for another set. :confused:

That little card Costco puts up with the price and some specs will include CR.

To get high contrast, they need to do clear glass.

To get high contrast, they need to do clear glass.

Why?

Where do you see 20K CR, I only see 100k din CR?
I was just assuming
its usually 3to1 or 5to1 around that range

I was just assuming
its usually 3to1 or 5to1 around that range

I Don't believe Dynamic Contrast applies very well to local dimming sets.

We all know that true (edit: Perceivable) contrast is somewhere in between static CR and dynamic CR which is measured in the time domain. Now, since this TV can locally DIM in a single frame, I don't think you will gain much by using Dynamic contrast on a LED BLU.

From a marketing standpoint, if you don't gain much (Lets say Dynamic CR for a LD set would be 120k:1) you may as well leave the dynamic part out, because a portion of your customers (as you demonstrated) are aware that Dynamic contrast ratios are not quite representative of the real *noticeable* effects.

I Don't believe Dynamic Contrast applies very well to local dimming sets.

We all know that true (edit: Perceivable) contrast is somewhere in between static CR and dynamic CR which is measured in the time domain. Now, since this TV can locally DIM in a single frame, I don't think you will gain much by using Dynamic contrast on a LED BLU.

From a marketing standpoint, if you don't gain much (Lets say Dynamic CR for a LD set would be 120k:1) you may as well leave the dynamic part out, because a portion of your customers (as you demonstrated) are aware that Dynamic contrast ratios are not quite representative of the real *noticeable* effects.


As dynamic is no good, you must think (I assume) that the typical 5:1 ratio to get to statitic is not usable for local dimming sets. What is then a good conversion factor ?

so roughly how long does it take for a price drop? a 40" 81 series would be sweet, but with an estimabed $3000 price point how long do you think it would take for it to reach the high $1000's, low $2000's range?

The thing to keep in mind with the 81s is Samsung is doing a limited distribution with them. One can conclude from this that prices are not going to fall all that much on the 81s. Once the 81s are in open distribution that will be a sign prices will come down soon.

The real question you should be asking is why are the 81s going to have a limited distribution. If you have the answer to this question you would have a much better idea as to when prices will come down for the 81s. One possibility is they are not prepared to manufacture the 81 panels in the quantities open distrubution would require. Another possibility is the panels are known to be buggy and they intend to reduce support costs via a limited distribution while they continue to work on a firmware fix. IE engineering knows they can fix the bugs in firmware.

Apparently C-net has given us an 'idea' of a release date on these. I can't wait to see one!

http://crave.cnet.com/8301-1_105-9743599-1.html

The 81s that is. Man it's good to have engadget and all this stuff being announced woohoo.

As dynamic is no good, you must think (I assume) that the typical 5:1 ratio to get to statitic is not usable for local dimming sets. What is then a good conversion factor ?

It is all about perception. Dynamic is not a *good* as static CR because it means that the LCD cannot achieve the stated contrast in a single frame but can do so by changing the intensity of the backlight source over a certain period of time (Hence the time domain thing). Now, this all happens very fast so over a quick period of time, the dynamic CR could be very convincing to your eye or could not be real better than the static contrast (if you were looking a a very static image).

Local Dimming is a completely different beast where it does not need time domain effects to boost the contrast. It can do that by locally dimming a region. One could argue that some form of pixel *remanence* (I know I'm not using the proper term here) could still dispel over time and slightly boost the Dynamic contrast of a LD set.

I'm not sure there is a conversion factor and frankly I think that when compared to CCFL Static CR, the stated numbers by samsung will be accurate (Meaning, yes IMHO, this TV should be able to reach up to 20 times the contrast ratio of other LCDs in a single frame). I am however, like most folks here, concerned about potential artifacts and effects of the difference in resolution between the LD and LCD parts of this set. You should be able to reach superb CR but that wont apply to pixel close to one another. I don't however think that the perceivable CR will be quite as high as advertized as your eye will still pick up regions of dimly lit blacks next to bright lit regions).

Nothing I've read says the 81 will have a 120Mhz refresh rate. Two things I am disturbed by, no cable card slot and glossy screen.



:eek: Its offical 120Mhz refresh rate and LED backlighting I will hold off buying a tv now that these 81 series tvs will be coming in an August 2007. Glad I did'nt make a rush decision on my next tv. For more info check out the info cnet just posted on their web site about samsungs new LCD's. :eek: 100,000:1 contrast that is crazy.

As dynamic is no good, you must think (I assume) that the typical 5:1 ratio to get to statitic is not usable for local dimming sets. What is then a good conversion factor ?

For local dimming display it is pretty much impossible to state an effective CR.
All dynamic sources will have an actual visible CR that is much lower than the possible maximum. The worst case scenario (all LED clusters are at their peak value) would have an effective CR of whatever LCD glass panel itself has. The visible CR is constantly moving in between the minimum and the maximum as the source changes. Simply put the CR on the 81s is a moving target that is based on the very source material that you input into the panel itself. If the source is high contrast the panel will likely be operating close to its maximum CR.

So you really need to state a minimum CR and a maximum CR as just 1 CR figure for a local dimming display is completely useless.

Hehe I might have to take out a small loan from my 401k to buy a 46" :P

QUESTIONS That need to be answered by Samsung
[list]
Are the LEDs white, or are they RGB clusters?


Read a Samsung press release regarding lcd panels for TV and monitor, where they prospected white LEDs BLU, whereas this fresh article states the advantages with RBG LEDs for BLU
http://powerelectronics.com/power_management/news/maxim-national-semiconductor-max8647-led-drivers-0627/

This article by Samsung SEM also says RGB is prefeable
http://www.electronicproducts.com/ShowPage.asp?FileName=tuapsamsung.jun2007.html
cite:
"A significant performance advantage with an RGB LED backlight is in the color gamut of the display, as CCFLs do not provide light of sufficiently spread spectrum to render accurate colors. Because such LED light sources have color values at the extremes of the chromaticity chart, a display based on RGB LEDs can exceed the NTSC color gamut by as much as 15%. For example, a Samsung rear-projection monitor with an RBG LED-based PLE won “Best of Show” at the 2006 Consumer Electronics Show, beating out both plasma and CCFL-driven LCDs, and their 40-in. LCD TV with LED BLU unit won the European Imaging and Sound Association (EISA) Award last year."

This article on the new Sammy lineup says 60-70 separate controllable clusters
http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/field-notes/hands-on-with-samsungs-newest-tv-tech-wi+fi-plasma-led+backlight-lcd-and-120hz-blur-reduction-277438.php

Nothing I've read says the 81 will have a 120Mhz refresh rate.

You are right. It has 120 Hz refresh rate. [not 120000000(120M) Hz or 120*10^-3(120m) Hz]

This is AVScience forum after all, so let's keep it accurate. :)

Hehe I might have to take out a small loan from my 401k to buy a 46" :P

Or get a second job to pay off the credit card. :D

Again the 81 is looking like the king of LCD;s but it wont be discounted right away
3999 for the 81
22XX for the 4665F

I bought the 4665F,I'd love to have a 46in 81 series but the $1700 I'm not spending on the 81 will add a cam,headers,springs,retainers,pushrods,tuning and a 3200 stall to my 06 GTO :)

60-70 clusters. I hate to say it, but thats pathetic. The BriteSide Displays has 1400 controllable LEDs. i think this set is going to be good, but I dont think it will be as good as it could be, this is a shame. For example, if you are watching a starwars space battle, there is going to be just as much leakage as there would be on a non dimmed set, because of the need to illuminate the stars. with fewer lights the effects could be much more dramatic. I think Samsung has let us down here.

This article by Samsung SEM also says RGB is prefeable

Besides, keep in mind that the next big thing for LED-based displays is Sequential Color which will require use of RGB LEDs. RGBs are here to stay.

60-70 clusters. I hate to say it, but thats pathetic. The BriteSide Displays has 1400 controllable LEDs. i think this set is going to be good, but I dont think it will be as good as it could be, this is a shame.
Yes, Brightside display was as advanced as it could have been. Not only was it a true IMLED (1 light source <-> 1 "cluster/block") but it also covered the whole human luminance vision range. It was perfect except the fact it cost around $40K.

81 series is a Brightside-lite version of this technology (this is why Samsung uses "local dimming" term instead of "IMLED" because 81s modulate individual clusters, not individual LEDs) because, a) true IMLED technology is still too expensive, and b) Samsung wants to introduce these advancements in increments so it can offer improved sets next season. If they released a fully optimized set this year you probably wouldn't want or need to buy anything else for a really long time. :-)

Still, 81s should be head and shoulders above any LCD on the market right now.

Can we assume the video processing in these guys will be the same chip used in the 65 series?

I do not think so. This is 120 Hz models, double VP power is needed at least IMO

perhaps you guys should stop complaining about CR numbers, and cluster let downs before you ever even laid eyes on the set. This set will most liekly be the best looking tv on the market and all I hear is complaints about how it can be better. Well screw you. Go live in a cave for 10 years and when you come out, maybe then the technology will be available to satisfy you.

In the mean time, I think i will remain interested in the 71/81 series of LCDs.

I'm sure the press release will be posted any day now
and they will show what the True contrast ratio is

Yes, Brightside display was as advanced as it could have been. Not only was it a true IMLED (1 light source <-> 1 "cluster/block") but it also covered the whole human luminance vision range. It was perfect except the fact it cost around $40K.

81 series is a Brightside-lite version of this technology (this is why Samsung uses "local dimming" term instead of "IMLED" because 81s modulate individual clusters, not individual LEDs) because, a) true IMLED technology is still too expensive, and b) Samsung wants to introduce these advancements in increments so it can offer improved sets next season. If they released a fully optimized set this year you probably wouldn't want or need to buy anything else for a really long time. :-)

Still, 81s should be head and shoulders above any LCD on the market right now.

It was 40K because of the R&D, and the fact that it was not production model. Im sure samsung could impliment more than 60 clusters at not much more cost per unit. I would go with you and say its merely so they can stretch the technology over a few years. It will be shoulders above, but not as much as it could be, nor as much as I hoped it would be. This fact along with the Glaro-tron™ panel is making me want to go with a XBR4 and wait out Local Dimming untill Sony licences it and does a better job of it.

perhaps you guys should stop complaining about CR numbers, and cluster let downs before you ever even laid eyes on the set. This set will most liekly be the best looking tv on the market and all I hear is complaints about how it can be better. Well screw you. Go live in a cave for 10 years and when you come out, maybe then the technology will be available to satisfy you.

In the mean time, I think i will remain interested in the 71/81 series of LCDs.

Harsh :(

perhaps you guys should stop complaining about CR numbers, and cluster let downs before you ever even laid eyes on the set. This set will most liekly be the best looking tv on the market and all I hear is complaints about how it can be better. Well screw you. Go live in a cave for 10 years and when you come out, maybe then the technology will be available to satisfy you.

In the mean time, I think i will remain interested in the 71/81 series of LCDs.


I have laid eyes on it.. Though they hid any possible flaws by having out on a brightly lit show floor.
I am not concerned about Contrast Ratios, it will with no doubt be higher than any other LCD. But the artifacts that could be added are hard to explain away, especially when Samsung has decided to half ass it.