My understanding from reading previous articles is that it's going to be semi-gloss... not totally flat like the 61's, but not as glossy as the 65's.

i would definetly like to see a gloss comparison between the 65 and the new 81's (and 71's), and the between plasmas and stuff (which no one even did for the 65's as far as i can see) to see the differences.

interesting, I could live with a Semi Gloss, I just went and gazed at the 65 for a while, glaass wasnt as bad as I thought but i could still see it being quite intrusive, half way is totally fine. You can tell since it doesnt diffuse light that it does provide a deeper black while in a dimmly lit enviroment, although I think the difference in a dark room would be less, although the releftions would still be present.

perhaps you guys should stop complaining about CR numbers, and cluster let downs before you ever even laid eyes on the set. This set will most liekly be the best looking tv on the market and all I hear is complaints about how it can be better. Well screw you. Go live in a cave for 10 years and when you come out, maybe then the technology will be available to satisfy you.

In the mean time, I think i will remain interested in the 71/81 series of LCDs.
I knew some1 would say it eventually
:D
thus the reason I was laughing at gte747e earlier

The limited number of clusters is probably more of a processing limitation. There is probably a huge computation problem to get this to work correctly without introducing all sorts of artifacts like glowing edges on bright objects, or the opposite dark edges. The entire area of the bright object probably has to be considered with the nearby darker areas to come up with a compromise that makes the bright as bright as possible while making the dark as dark as possible without having noticably dark/bright edges.

A compromise would be to have the backlight up behind a bright object, but the LCD closed more to even out with edges with the LCD being open more and backlight down so the closed areas next to the bright object do not glow.

This is a technology that can really be improved over time. Once they get "white" working they can do each color. Can have red up bright and green/blue dim in an area. Can have multiple shades of RGB to brighten/darken behind areas to give more accurate color rendering. The possibilities are endless here, this TV will probably look as bad as a 10 year old plasma in a few years by comparison to sets produced then.

100,000:1 CR for the 81s would no doubt be the maximum CR the panel is capable. Just guessing they would have had to have 1 half of the panel 100% white and the other half 100% black to get that. The source material that we would show on these panels is going to be nothing like that.

We should be able to figure the minimum CR for the 81s from the 71s as they no doubt use the same LCD panel. Anyone have a idea what the native contrast ratio is of the 71s?

I am still looking forward to the 81s very much. As it should still be a big step forward in PQ. Shadow detail alone should make a huge leap forward on the 81s.

I have laid eyes on it.. Though they hid any possible flaws by having out on a brightly lit show floor.
I am not concerned about Contrast Ratios, it will with no doubt be higher than any other LCD. But the artifacts that could be added are hard to explain away, especially when Samsung has decided to half ass it.
Half ass it? Please link us to a FULL ASS version you can buy instead of these pipedream Tradeshow B.S. that no one can buy and most could not afford. Bitching about improvements when they have ZERO competition in the marketplace and you call it half ass? Seems to be a half brain statement! :cool:

Please do list our other choices? Brightside dreamware? SED Vaporware? Where is this sheeite to be bought and enjoyed?

the problem that i'm seeing with this is the potential for inconsistent blacks across a single screen. if you have a mixture of light and dark, depending on how it falls across one of those clusters you could have a very gray looking black sitting next to a very black looking black.

The limited number of clusters is probably more of a processing limitation. There is probably a huge computation problem to get this to work correctly without introducing all sorts of artifacts like glowing edges on bright objects, or the opposite dark edges. The entire area of the bright object probably has to be considered with the nearby darker areas to come up with a compromise that makes the bright as bright as possible while making the dark as dark as possible without having noticably dark/bright edges.

A compromise would be to have the backlight up behind a bright object, but the LCD closed more to even out with edges with the LCD being open more and backlight down so the closed areas next to the bright object do not glow.

This is a technology that can really be improved over time. Once they get "white" working they can do each color. Can have red up bright and green/blue dim in an area. Can have multiple shades of RGB to brighten/darken behind areas to give more accurate color rendering. The possibilities are endless here, this TV will probably look as bad as a 10 year old plasma in a few years by comparison to sets produced then.

soooo, does that mean it wont look better than anything else out there? or will it still?

also, i read this in one of the articles, and i'm not sure i understand it (since most of the 120khz processing stuff has been discussed as it relates to the sony sets, and i dont know if this is the same thing, better, worse, or what).

"Like the 71 series, the 81 series models include 1080p resolution and a 120Hz frame rate using Samsung’s Auto Motion PlusLED technology. The Auto Motion Plus system is implemented “a little bit differently” than in the 71 series models, employing the LED quadrant scanning system, said Ali Atash, Samsung LCD senior marketing manager."

Half ass it? Please link us to a FULL ASS version you can buy instead of these pipedream Tradeshow B.S. that no one can buy and most could not afford. Bitching about improvements when they have ZERO competition in the marketplace and you call it half ass? Seems to be a half brain statement! :cool:

Please do list our other choices? Brightside dreamware? SED Vaporware? Where is this sheeite to be bought and enjoyed?


haha, you are right. But I do think they could have done better. I dont beleive the processing power limitation theory. Im sure motion interpolation while scaling a 720p image to 1080p at the same time requires more power the light modulation, or atleast similar.

I am still going to buy one, but i dont have the confidence to get it sight unseen, godspeed to those who are so brave.

Im sorta thinking best Display using todays Tech would be a 480p black and white plasma with a 1080P LCd panel mounted onto it sitting on top of it

the problem that i'm seeing with this is the potential for inconsistent blacks across a single screen. if you have a mixture of light and dark, depending on how it falls across one of those clusters you could have a very gray looking black sitting next to a very black looking black.

We will have to see. Displaying something like a star filled night sky or fire works at night would be a good test. Anything where there is high contrast in the source with black being the predominate color will do.

100,000:1 CR for the 81s would no doubt be the maximum CR the panel is capable. Just guessing they would have had to have 1 half of the panel 100% white and the other half 100% black to get that. The source material that we would show on these panels is going to be nothing like that.

We should be able to figure the minimum CR for the 81s from the 71s as they no doubt use the same LCD panel. Anyone have a idea what the native contrast ratio is of the 71s?

I am still looking forward to the 81s very much. As it should still be a big step forward in PQ. Shadow detail alone should make a huge leap forward on the 81s.

Dynamic on the 71 is 25K:1, so I would assume the native is 5k:1

Dynamic on the 71 is 25K:1, so I would assume the native is 5k:1


The best TV on the market right now can offer a 3,500:1 static contrast? So I'd say the upgrade is pretty damn good.

The best TV on the market right now can offer a 3,500:1 static contrast? So I'd say the upgrade is pretty damn good.
are you talking about the 65F?

it has 3k1

Am I missing it somewhere in this thread or has no one caught the Samsung announcement?

Hmm...I haven't posted 5 times yet, so it won't let me post the link at engadgethd...let's see...

engadgethd[dot]com/2007/07/11/samsung-announces-71-81-series-1080p-lcd-hdtvs/

Well if the native contrast of the 71 is around 4,000:1 the 81 should make for a very nice display indeed. Will have to wait and see if it has processing artifacts and bugs.

Am I missing it somewhere in this thread or has no one caught the Samsung announcement?

Hmm...I haven't posted 5 times yet, so it won't let me post the link at engadgethd...let's see...

engadgethd[dot]com/2007/07/11/samsung-announces-71-81-series-1080p-lcd-hdtvs/


Here ya go, I'll make that easier for everyone. :)

http://www.engadgethd.com/2007/07/11/samsung-announces-71-81-series-1080p-lcd-hdtvs/

Am I missing it somewhere in this thread or has no one caught the Samsung announcement?

Seriously, did you even skim the last 2 pages of this thread?

Apparently C-net has given us an 'idea' of a release date on these. I can't wait to see one!

http://crave.cnet.com/8301-1_105-9743599-1.html

The 81s that is. Man it's good to have engadget and all this stuff being announced woohoo.

Yup, we were right. It is the same shiny screen as the 65's (on both the 71 and 81). Identical, according to the article. With my situation, it wont make too much of a difference, but for others, it will.

Seriously, did you even skim the last 2 pages of this thread?

LMAO

Seriously, did you even skim the last 2 pages of this thread?

Yikes, thought I had gone far back enough, but obviously not. Would have been pretty shocked if I had broken something among this crew!

Yup, we were right. It is the same shiny screen as the 65's (on both the 71 and 81). Identical, according to the article. With my situation, it wont make too much of a difference, but for others, it will.

yeah but another confirmation article stated they were an in between, nothing has really been proven yet it seems, as even cnet hasnt even reviewed them yet as they had stated.

Still no official product page for these units from Samsung, thus no word whether or not they have a 1:1 pixel mapping mode. One would expect it on a set at this price point, but I want to see it on an official spec sheet before I believe it.

So now that we know what Samsung is up to, let's see what LG/Phillips is going to respond with. Their "local area luminance control" set was scheduled for Q2. Maybe they were waiting for Samsung to blink first with their pricing strategy.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9687005&&#post9687005
Meanwhile, Dolby is probably busy licensing Brightside technology to the rest of the players.

So now that we know what Samsung is up to, let's see what LG/Phillips is going to respond with.
That's the first time that I've seen that picture and specs on the LG. What's up with the 10,000K temperature? Why aren't they shooting for 6500K? Odd.

I'm interested to see if both the 71 and 81 series come out of the box working great or if it will be a huge card swapping snafu like the 65 series. Who wants to buy a tv that needs to be repaired right away?

I'm interested to see if both the 71 and 81 series come out of the box working great or if it will be a huge card swapping snafu like the 65 series. Who wants to buy a tv that needs to be repaired right away?


haha! Good point. I am almost expecting there to be some initial bumps with the release of the 81 series. But... We'll just have to keep our fingers crossed, I guess.

Apparently C-net has given us an 'idea' of a release date on these. I can't wait to see one!

http://crave.cnet.com/8301-1_105-9743599-1.html

The 81s that is. Man it's good to have engadget and all this stuff being announced woohoo.
http://i.i.com.com/cnwk.1d/i/bto/20070712/LN-T71F_series_270x202.jpg

Holy Crap!!!
Pitiful design, butt friggin' ugly boxy pedestal, boxy fat bezel, dumbo ears.
This is a design disaster!!!!

100,000:1, who cares, wouldn't have that butt ugly crap anywhere near the home.

Dissapointment that the 81 series is lacking HDMI 1.3 and 120hz. I had heard that before, but that sucks.

I really wanted 120hz, hdmi 1.3, and LED backlight. Ah well. Looks like I'll be going with the 71. How bad can it be? :D

Dissapointment that the 81 series is lacking HDMI 1.3 and 120hz. I had heard that before, but that sucks.

I really wanted 120hz, hdmi 1.3, and LED backlight. Ah well. Looks like I'll be going with the 71. How bad can it be? :D


I dont think we know for sure that the 81 doesnt have hdmi 1.3
they didnt include it in the description
but it still might include it

the 65F didnt include it in the description at first but after it was posted on the sammy website it did

I highly doubt this set will even gain much out of the 120hz feature.

Hopefully we get some 71 vs 81 reviews in early august :)

Though the first few reports aren't completely specific it would be very odd for the 81 series to not have HDMI 1.3 as it is a step up from the 71 series, and its LEDs should allow for a color gamut which is greater than 100 percent of the NTSC colorspace into the xvYCC range. Also, it does have 120hz:

http://www.twice.com/article/CA6459449.html

Dissapointment that the 81 series is lacking HDMI 1.3 and 120hz. \

Where do you see that 81 doesn't have 120hz ??

crave page shows this 81 same specs as 71....

" Aside from the LED backlight, the LN-T81F series is pretty much identical to the 71F series in terms of specs and includes the same shiny screen "


CadJoe

Still no official product page for these units from Samsung, thus no word whether or not they have a 1:1 pixel mapping mode. One would expect it on a set at this price point, but I want to see it on an official spec sheet before I believe it.

The 65's have it, so I am sure this does too (the 71). It is called Just Scan.

Where do you see that 81 doesn't have 120hz ??

crave page shows this 81 same specs as 71....

" Aside from the LED backlight, the LN-T81F series is pretty much identical to the 71F series in terms of specs and includes the same shiny screen "


CadJoe

Well,,,,,much bigger contrast ratio of course.

http://www.twice.com/article/CA6459449.html


never read that article yet

Nice Find! :cool:

I'm interested to see if both the 71 and 81 series come out of the box working great or if it will be a huge card swapping snafu like the 65 series. Who wants to buy a tv that needs to be repaired right away?

Well, the HDMI 1.3 problems with the 65 series have pretty much been resolved, so I don't see that problem with the 71. If the 71 is pretty much the same set with higher CR and 120hz, then it should be pretty solid,,,,,unless they have problems with something related to the 120hz. The 81 is a whole other animal. I would not be surprised to see several problems that need to be ironed out with the new technology, but that is probably part of the reason for the limited release.

http://i.i.com.com/cnwk.1d/i/bto/20070712/LN-T71F_series_270x202.jpg

Holy Crap!!!
Pitiful design, butt friggin' ugly boxy pedestal, boxy fat bezel, dumbo ears.
This is a design disaster!!!!

100,000:1, who cares, wouldn't have that butt ugly crap anywhere near the home.


Man i left this forum for a couple ,months
fast forward to now
you have 1k posts more
and are twice as negative as you were before

I can understand you not wanting this set becuz of the reflective screen
not everyone can control the light situation in their rooms

but how can you not buy a set because its got an average deisgn
its pretty basic design not as good as it could be
but
its not like the frame is pink with happy faces on it
even if it did who the hell cares as long as it produces an amazing image

I cant understand people who spend 5k on a tv becuz its got a better design than the 4k model with not as good quality
for freak sakes its a frame

im glad the prices are within the 4k-5k range. now i wont have to rob a bank.

As for release, if within a month of 2, great !!! I am happy with my pioneer 5071, my house renovations wont be completed till winter, so no I wont be jumping on first batch of 81s.

im feeling the sammy 81 cuz its...straight, not curved. I cant wait to see this baby on my wall this winter, cuz by then the bugs will be ironed out or hell version 2 hehe.

I cant wait to see these sets in person.

Well,,,,,much bigger contrast ratio of course.
The 81 does have 120hz.

" Like the 71 series, the 81 series models include 1080p resolution and a 120Hz frame rate using Samsung’s Auto Motion PlusLED technology "

http://www.twice.com/article/CA6459449.html

Don't know about version 1.3 on the HDMI though.

From the link dogmandoo posted:

"Other features include Samsung’s Super Clear Panel technology"

Arrgh! This is the glossy screen, just like the 5265! Is this a deal killer for anyone else but me? Even with dim room lighting, you'll see reflections in dark scenes, especially if you wear light colored clothing. For some people this may be OK, it's just like existing Plasma/CRT reflections, but I think one big advantage of non-glossy LCD's is the diffusion of reflections.

It looks like my only hope is the Sony XBR4/5, also a Samsung panel, and hopefully not glossy like the Samsung branded ones.

-Joe


Crap, I just came into some money and am finally looking into getting a good set. The 81 series seemed to be perfect, but with that glossy front, there is no way I can use that. I have 25' of glass on the left side of the room and an LCD TV seemed to be the answer as everything else reflects.

Now what? Are the new Sony's non glossy? What about the new LG models that I read about that also have similar technology?

- Roger

PS. I am also considering getting the Yamaha YSP-1100 (http://www.yamaha.com/yec/YSP1/idx_ysp1100.htm) does anyone have any experience with one of those? Can anyone point me to the proper thread?

Man i left this forum for a couple ,months
fast forward to now
you have 1k posts more
and are twice as negative as you were before

I can understand you not wanting this set becuz of the reflective screen
not everyone can control the light situation in their rooms

but how can you not buy a set because its got an average deisgn
its pretty basic design not as good as it could be
but
its not like the frame is pink with happy faces on it
even if it did who the hell cares as long as it produces an amazing image

I cant understand people who spend 5k on a tv becuz its got a better design than the 4k model with not as good quality
for freak sakes its a frame

Totally agree. Very stupid for a person to not buy a TV that boasts these kinds of spec.s because of a simple design. I'm not paying $4,000+ to have a nice sleek piece of plastic; I'm buying this for Picture Quality. For all I care, the frame could be in the shape of an ass, as long as it gives me the picture that this one promises.

If you aren't interested in this TV, then don't bother coming here posting your useless comments.

It was 40K because of the R&D, and the fact that it was not production model. Im sure samsung could impliment more than 60 clusters at not much more cost per unit.
Have you checked the price of a single RGB LED? Some cost several dollars each. So we can assume that Samsung gets them cheaper, but how much? Let's say they get them for fiddy cents each times 1400 = $700! That is just the raw cost of the LED. What about assembly, controller chips, R&D, licensing etc. There is no way a screen with 1400 or even 400 LEDs in it could be affordable. 60 to 70 seems about right for the price premium we are seeing here.

For local dimming display it is pretty much impossible to state an effective CR.
All dynamic sources will have an actual visible CR that is much lower than the possible maximum. The worst case scenario (all LED clusters are at their peak value) would have an effective CR of whatever LCD glass panel itself has. The visible CR is constantly moving in between the minimum and the maximum as the source changes. Simply put the CR on the 81s is a moving target that is based on the very source material that you input into the panel itself. If the source is high contrast the panel will likely be operating close to its maximum CR.

So you really need to state a minimum CR and a maximum CR as just 1 CR figure for a local dimming display is completely useless.


That reasoning seems to apply for all sets (also non- local dimming sets), not? If the source doesn't have pictures that go beyond the CR of the tv set then you can't measure CR ....

Still no official product page for these units from Samsung, thus no word whether or not they have a 1:1 pixel mapping mode. One would expect it on a set at this price point, but I want to see it on an official spec sheet before I believe it.


I would also like to know whether the 81 has 1/1 pixel mapping. Another question I have is about 1/1 mapping and 120HZ, can you have 1/1 mapping when 120HZ is activated? I guess when you activate 120HZ, you probably do some processing too but then you loose the 1/1 mapping capability ...

I would also like to know whether the 81 has 1/1 pixel mapping. Another question I have is about 1/1 mapping and 120HZ, can you have 1/1 mapping when 120HZ is activated? I guess when you activate 120HZ, you probably do some processing too but then you loose the 1/1 mapping capability ...

If you mean by 1:1 as show all and only pixels found on source material , as 120Hz creates half of frames by processing it's clearly not 1:1. But if source is 24Hz and panel makes it 120Hz by 5:5 , 1:1 can be enabled.

If you mean by 1:1 as show all and only pixels found on source material , as 120Hz creates half of frames by processing it's clearly not 1:1. But if source is 24Hz and panel makes it 120Hz by 5:5 , 1:1 can be enabled.


Is that a theoretical answer or the way Samsung has it implemented?

Crap, I just came into some money and am finally looking into getting a good set. The 81 series seemed to be perfect, but with that glossy front, there is no way I can use that. I have 25' of glass on the left side of the room and an LCD TV seemed to be the answer as everything else reflects.

Now what? Are the new Sony's non glossy? What about the new LG models that I read about that also have similar technology?

- Roger

PS. I am also considering getting the Yamaha YSP-1100 (http://www.yamaha.com/yec/YSP1/idx_ysp1100.htm) does anyone have any experience with one of those? Can anyone point me to the proper thread?

It looks to be a matte or semi-gloss finish not unlike the Sony XBRs 4 & 5.

I thought the 81's were going to have LED pulse of some type to get rid of all motion blur. Now they are saying it just does the 120hz for that?

Can anyone explain if the 81 with LED will remove motion blur beyond what a standard LCD running at 120hz can?

Is that a theoretical answer or the way Samsung has it implemented?

Theoretical. We don't know wheter it does 5:5 for 24Hz material. But as for screen area i don't think over/underscan will be any different with 120Hz.(it just doesn't make any sense)

Is that a theoretical answer or the way Samsung has it implemented?

im def interested in this too, cuz i plan on pluging my PC to it at 1920x1080 @ 60hz, so how will this work.any confirmation that this set can handle 1:1 mapping :p

I thought the 81's were going to have LED pulse of some type to get rid of all motion blur. Now they are saying it just does the 120hz for that?

Can anyone explain if the 81 with LED will remove motion blur beyond what a standard LCD running at 120hz can?

thats what i want to know too...

Am I the only one who's fapin over the 81 series. OMG im fired up!!! :eek:

Have you checked the price of a single RGB LED? Some cost several dollars each. So we can assume that Samsung gets them cheaper, but how much? Let's say they get them for fiddy cents each times 1400 = $700! That is just the raw cost of the LED. What about assembly, controller chips, R&D, licensing etc. There is no way a screen with 1400 or even 400 LEDs in it could be affordable. 60 to 70 seems about right for the price premium we are seeing here.

The unit doesn't have 60 to 70 LEDs, it has 60-70 CLUSTERS. That means each cluser will be about 10cm square (or bigger) and contain multiple RGB LEDs. And I'm sure they get the LEDs much cheaper than $0.50 each. $0.05 would make more sense, but that is just pure speculation.

Am I the only one who's fapin over the 81 series. OMG im fired up!!! :eek:

Heck we kept this thread alive when all we had to chew on was folks doubting this set was even going to exist! Not many folks predicted this set to be within buying range (hehe glad to say I was one of the lucky ones predicting it would be).

There's a bunch of us excited. Guess we easily fall into doubt because we don't want to set ourselves for disappointment. Kinda like how a movie is better if it exceeds your expectations you had walking in the theater...

Caution must be exercised but this was a samsung event, people (know Engadget folks were there) saw the TV running demos. Sure there will be downfalls but predicting we'll see reflections from the moon or football sized dimming regions popping out of the screen may be overreacting.

In the meantime, I still enjoy this technical discussion about what this TV may or may not do, just so you guys don't think I'm bashing y'all for speculating in this thread (which is what it is for!).

http://i.i.com.com/cnwk.1d/i/bto/20070712/LN-T71F_series_270x202.jpg

Holy Crap!!!
Pitiful design, butt friggin' ugly boxy pedestal, boxy fat bezel, dumbo ears.
This is a design disaster!!!!

100,000:1, who cares, wouldn't have that butt ugly crap anywhere near the home.

It could be pink with silver stars on it - I will still buy it if it lives up to the hype from an image quality standpoint.

For all I care, the frame could be in the shape of an ass, as long as it gives me the picture that this one promises.
Well, I don't know if I would go that far! :D

I cant understand people who spend 5k on a tv becuz its got a better design than the 4k model with not as good quality
for freak sakes its a frame

Maybe this wider frame is required by the LD electronics? I can only relate to the LED drivers I use but when you factor in the coils required they can chew some real estate. :) Plus they can get quite hot depending on the voltage applied/numbers of LED Driven.

I dunno... Heck I don't think it looks that bad. Its not a great design but its alright.

Heck we kept this thread alive when all we had to chew on was folks doubting this set was even going to exist!

I wonder where that dude is (we are not going to name names around here) since he went on for a while about how we wereso lame for believing there was such a thing called 71/81 panels... :rolleyes:

I wonder where that dude is (we are not going to name names around here) since he went on for a while about how we wereso lame for believing there was such a thing called 71/81 panels... :rolleyes:

Ill name a name: that was Conan ... :) Im getting the feeling that Anticipation threads are a breeding ground for negativity as people like Conan were accusing everyone of perpetuating wild rumours of the 81 series "vapourware", now that we have the information we are bashing the cosmetics, the fact that "Samsung could do better", etc etc ... no offence to anyone here but I look forward to the set being released, hearing some positive reviews and than buying this set and getting away from all this negativity.

In the meantime here are some solutions for those with problems with the 81 series:

Too Wide:
- Use a saw and cut off the extra width, make sure to get an extended warranty and say a wood pecker flew in and did that.
- Go look at a Sony XBR2/3 and see how wide wide is
- OR you can get another HDTV

Styling is Ugly or too Boxy
- Again take out your chisel and sand paper and make some nice curves around it, or in the unfortunate circumstance it doesnt come in the shape of an ASS you can form it into the shape of an ASS
- Take out all the circuitry and install it into the frame of your choice; into a old gutted silver Panasonic Frame and see what happens.
- Get your kids to paint the frame and doodle over the frame to 'pretty' it up
- OR you can get another HDTV

Samsung could have improved the PQ / Number of LED
- Break into Samsung's R&D labs and steal next years model
- Call up Samsung and tell them to make a custom HDTV for you, money is not a limitation
-Make your own perfect HDTV in the basement of your home from parts fr your refrigerator, lawn mower, old computer CRT and a package of gum
- OR you can get another HDTV

Thats enough for now. Im sure you guys get the point that if your not happy with the set than there are many other manufacturs ready to take your money. I for one would be happy for you to have another TV as the 81 series will be in limited supply and I want my 46 or 52 inch set, my 5 grand is already saevd up and ready to be spent so just waiting for its release.

This is a time to celebrate not be a bunch a spoiled brats.

Zsolt

From the link dogmandoo posted:

"Other features include Samsung’s Super Clear Panel technology"

Arrgh! This is the glossy screen, just like the 5265! Is this a deal killer for anyone else but me? Even with dim room lighting, you'll see reflections in dark scenes, especially if you wear light colored clothing. For some people this may be OK, it's just like existing Plasma/CRT reflections, but I think one big advantage of non-glossy LCD's is the diffusion of reflections.

It looks like my only hope is the Sony XBR4/5, also a Samsung panel, and hopefully not glossy like the Samsung branded ones.

-Joe

Glossy screen would also be a deal killer for me.

Have you checked the price of a single RGB LED? Some cost several dollars each. So we can assume that Samsung gets them cheaper, but how much? Let's say they get them for fiddy cents each times 1400 = $700! That is just the raw cost of the LED. What about assembly, controller chips, R&D, licensing etc. There is no way a screen with 1400 or even 400 LEDs in it could be affordable. 60 to 70 seems about right for the price premium we are seeing here.

Most CCFL backlit LCDs have close to/over 50% of their cost in the backlighting system.

Totally agree. Very stupid for a person to not buy a TV that boasts these kinds of spec.s because of a simple design. I'm not paying $4,000+ to have a nice sleek piece of plastic; I'm buying this for Picture Quality. For all I care, the frame could be in the shape of an ass, as long as it gives me the picture that this one promises.

If you aren't interested in this TV, then don't bother coming here posting your useless comments.

Although I agree it should be about the picture, You guys dont know the average consumer. As some1 who sold big screen HDTVs for over a year (just last year), I know first hand that 90% of customers, care more about the physical appearance of a tv then the quality. To many people, they see these tvs and there are no scale of 1/10 for quality. There is only looks good and looks bad. Once they narrow it down to several looks good sets within their budget, they almost ALWAYS go for the tv that looks better for them. I try to explain to the customers that its the picture that matters most, but these people are stupid. They go for the TV that looks the best on the outside.

Why do you think the 71/81 series are still super glossy like the 65 series? You think samsung cares about the few thousand or so people posting on the net saying "not buying cause its glossy". Cause the majority of customers who purchase their sets, are those who know nothing about sites like this. They walk into a store and rely on a salesman to explain to them whats what. These customer will see the 65 gloss series over the 61 and love it.

I too wish that the television companies catered more towards us AVS type people, but ultimately it does not. In fact, the 81 series is talored heavily towards us, and look, its limited release. Samsung know that these sets will be nowhere near as popular as the 61/65/71 series. The average consumer doesnt know the difference between LED and CCFL and they are not going to pay a difference between the two.

........................still don't see any official announcement from Samsung? nor have they announced a date. Next month is a little over a couple of weeks.

BTW. I love the glossy screen. The screen is not glossy just to be glossy. It's a special film that they have been using on Laptop and some PC monitors (currently typing on a glossy LCD) for years. It dramatically improves black levels, and colours. Gives the image more pop like a good plasma can and more depth to the image.

All you crying about glossy screens are being little babies. If your so into Home Theater that you are willing to buy the best and latest, then why can't you get some freaking black out drapes or some decent curtains? I LOVE glossy! It gives an LCD an MUCH better picture. Id rather have a reflective screen then a dull matte screen anyday. So anyone you can't stand the gloss should leave this thread ASAP and never come back. Samsung realizes that they will lose some sales by doing this, but they also know that they will be gaining much more sales when people see how much better the glossy screens look.

Although I agree it should be about the picture, You guys dont know the average consumer. As some1 who sold big screen HDTVs for over a year (just last year), I know first hand that 90% of customers, care more about the physical appearance of a tv then the quality. To many people, they see these tvs and there are no scale of 1/10 for quality. There is only looks good and looks bad. Once they narrow it down to several looks good sets within their budget, they almost ALWAYS go for the tv that looks better for them. I try to explain to the customers that its the picture that matters most, but these people are stupid. They go for the TV that looks the best on the outside.

Why do you think the 71/81 series are still super glossy like the 65 series? You think samsung cares about the few thousand or so people posting on the net saying "not buying cause its glossy". Cause the majority of customers who purchase their sets, are those who know nothing about sites like this. They walk into a store and rely on a salesman to explain to them whats what. These customer will see the 65 gloss series over the 61 and love it.

I too wish that the television companies catered more towards us AVS type people, but ultimately it does not. In fact, the 81 series is talored heavily towards us, and look, its limited release. Samsung know that these sets will be nowhere near as popular as the 61/65/71 series. The average consumer doesnt know the difference between LED and CCFL and they are not going to pay a difference between the two.

I'm confused are you talking about the frame on the 81 series, because from the photos I've seen it doesn't look glossy but a matte black color shade.

I'm confused are you talking about the frame on the 81 series, because from the photos I've seen it doesn't look glossy but a matte black color shade.
Which pictures are those? The computer generated ones on Engadget (http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/11/samsung-announces-71-81-series-1080p-lcd-hdtvs/) ? Or the ones on Gizmodo (http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/field-notes/hands-on-with-samsungs-newest-tv-tech-wi+fi-plasma-led+backlight-lcd-and-120hz-blur-reduction-277438.php) where you can see a shiny part being reflected in the top left?

Which pictures are those? The computer generated ones on Engadget (http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/11/samsung-announces-71-81-series-1080p-lcd-hdtvs/) ? Or the ones on Gizmodo (http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/field-notes/hands-on-with-samsungs-newest-tv-tech-wi+fi-plasma-led+backlight-lcd-and-120hz-blur-reduction-277438.php) where you can see a shiny part being reflected in the top left?


The shiny glare in Gizmodo photo could be the side speaker, the frame in that photo doesn't appear glossy to me.

I'm confused are you talking about the frame on the 81 series, because from the photos I've seen it doesn't look glossy but a matte black color shade.

I believe people are speaking about the super clear panel glass, such that it becomes reflective in some instances ... the 61 series has a matte finish on the panel and prevent reflection but depresses the contratst ratio somewhat.

I personally like the glossy glass as I have a darker room.

Zsolt

BTW. I love the glossy screen. The screen is not glossy just to be glossy. It's a special film that they have been using on Laptop and some PC monitors (currently typing on a glossy LCD) for years.

Yeah, and it SUCKS on the laptop screens too. Acer is putting it on all their laptops now, and I won't ever buy another acer because of it.

Try using a laptop outside or in your vehicle with the GLOSSY screen. Its impossible to even see the screen. Not to mention all the glare from flourescent lights in the office.

CadJoe

I believe people are speaking about the super clear panel glass, such that it becomes reflective in some instances ... the 61 series has a matte finish on the panel and prevent reflection but depresses the contratst ratio somewhat.

I personally like the glossy glass as I have a darker room.

Zsolt

After comparing the 61 and the 65, I much prefer the glossy screen as well. I personally have a Dell Laptop with TrueLife display and I must say that it makes the display more vibrant, contrast, and life-like images over its matte counterpart. I saw the same result between the 61 and 65. To each his/her own, I guess.

I try to explain to the customers that its the picture that matters most, but these people are stupid. They go for the TV that looks the best on the outside.

So people are stupid because they value different features in a TV than the features you deem important?

i still want to know the difference between the Samsung 120khz and the Sony 120khz and its motionflow feature.

Nitpick: Its 120Hz not 120khz. :)
Don't really know the differences. Sony claims black frame insertion in their MotionFlow. Not sure about Samsung.

So from this pic is the reflection from the lights look like it has a glossy screen?

Coopertwist, where did you get that shot of the TV with camera flare glaring off the screen? I couldn't find it on any of the linked sites.

Nitpick: Its 120Hz not 120khz. :)
Don't really know the differences. Sony claims black frame insertion in their MotionFlow. Not sure about Samsung.

Blackframe insertion sounds like a surefire way to get flicker, not sure why this is a good idea. Also I want to know if they both can do 5:5 pullup, and especially from a 1080i telecine source.

Guy's, I am planning on putting one of these in an RV, and it has to stand up to a fair amount of bumps, since the RV is a 4x4. Does anyone think that this particular technology would be more, or less likely to suffer from vibrations than conventional LCD?

Glossy screen would also be a deal killer for me.


BAH
Go to any big box store & take a look at the Samsung 65 series on display, the reflection is NO WHERE NEAR THAT OF A PLASMA!

The only time you really see any reflections is when the screen is all black & even then you only see a blacked out outline & not a mirror like reflections.

Seriously, the new glossy screens are NOT bad. Even the plasma with the best anti-coating screen is 100 times more reflective than the glossy 65 series screen.

As much as I am excited about this set, I have to agree that the frame, in my opinion, is way too wide. I'm disappointed as I have been holding off buying a set because I couldn't stand the wide bezel on my old 46XBR2. The 65 series is too wide with it's side speakers. I was hoping Samsung would stay in the styling vein of say the 4066F. Not a deal breaker, just a letdown.

I read the article at engadget,

YES! Kudos to everyone looking to jump on the 81 band wagon, I'm glad it's finally been announced for release and priced well. I'm a whimp and couldn't take the leap to such a new tech, bt its sounds super promising, I hope it works as well as it sounds. But the 71 series was also announced and that's been the only thing keeping me from jumping in...if it pans out well I'm sold. Otherwise I'll be satisfied with the 65 which will likely be lowered. Wouldn't be a bad thing. I think the design is a little confusing too, but hell it's not bad and it's the best TV to hit the market this year. Glad the wait is over!

and thought

that since Samsung "announced" the 71/81,

I could read the press release on their site.

Couldn't find it, but I did find

THIS (http://www.samsung.com/us/aboutsamsung/news/newsRead.do?newstype=productnews&newsctgry=&newssubctgry=&news_seq=3706&page=1&rdoPeriod=ALL&from_dt=&to_dt=&search_category=10102&search_keyword=) 500,000:1 contrast on a 70 inch screen! Might have to take out a Home-Equity loan for this baby.

(sorry, couldn't link until post #6...)

I agree. i want to see how it performs but i wish it looked more like the 65.

BAH
Go to any big box store & take a look at the Samsung 65 series on display, the reflection is NO WHERE NEAR THAT OF A PLASMA!

The only time you really see any reflections is when the screen is all black & even then you only see a blacked out outline & not a mirror like reflections.

Seriously, the new glossy screens are NOT bad. Even the plasma with the best anti-coating screen is 100 times more reflective than the glossy 65 series screen.

You know, i beleived that at first, but on the cnet review it said it was even WORSE than plasma i think, and thats a bold statement to make all things considered.

I think it was said actually that the upcoming ones would improve screen reflectivity to be somewehre between matte and the current ones out, so there's always hope they'll get it right this time.

I think it was said actually that the upcoming ones would improve screen reflectivity to be somewehre between matte and the current ones out, so there's always hope they'll get it right this time.

They didn't get it wrong, it was "glossy" because it lacked an anti-glare coating which enabled the higher contrast ratio, which is the difference between the 61 and 65. Whether they can find a work around that maintains that quality without having the screen suffer the effects of glare remains to be seen.

BAH
Go to any big box store & take a look at the Samsung 65 series on display, the reflection is NO WHERE NEAR THAT OF A PLASMA!This is contrary to pictures posted in the original 65 series thread, if you followed it, is contrary to my personal experience viewing in stores, these sets are very reflective, not as much as some plasmas, more than some.

What's all this whining on this board about people posting negative comments? You guys want a bunch of girlyman yes-men to say nothing but good things about these sets just because of the hype? What is with all the defensiveness about a piece of electronics? You'd think people were hurling personal insults. I for one have learned most about discussions concerning the deficiencies of TV sets, since it is the discerning viewer that looks for them in all the detailed analysis that goes into viewing a TV screen.

There is alot to be negative about given current LCD offerings and given the potential for outstanding offerings with current improved panels. We have clouding, banding, no CableCARD, uninspired design (the 61 series is an exception, read the CNET review), gloss. Most people are not cave dwellers, matte finish please. Samsung just can't do it and match Sharp's numbers, so they resort to this glossy gimmick to please the "this is a sexy TV" crowd.

Yes picture quality is number 1, but I actually consider the picture of the 61 series superior to the 65 series. Ordinarily, one can live with styling deficiencies, but if those pictures are any indication, this a a major deficiency.

I have the 4665 with a 10x8 foot window facing east 90 degrees and five feet from the TV and the glare is a non-issue for me. Thirty-something years of staring at a glass CRT, it's normal that televisions have glossy screens.

I guess everyone needs to wait until these sets are released or test reviews are posted to answer some of these questions.

Well.....We can all agree that the glossy screen has the better picture right? Ive never heard anyone say that he/she thought the 61 looked better then the 65. For us hardcore enthusiasts with light control, the news of a glossy screen is very positive indeed. I wouldn't be surprised at all to find out the sony xbr4 & 5 will also have a glossy screen as early reports suggest a contrast ratio of between 15 to 20 thousand. The only way to get a contrast that high is with a dynamic backlight and glossy screen. Ive been hoping for glossy LCD TVs for years now and Im happy that Samsung took the plunge. When I switched my LCD monitor 2 years ago for a glossy one, I couldn't believe how much better it looked then the matte. Always wondered why no TV did the same and now Samsung has answered the call of the gloss.

BTW, people should be used to gloss by now. What the hell were people watching for the last 100 years!! GLOSSY CRT. Never heard anyone complain back in the day about reflections. Get used to it, reflections are back people.

VIVA LA GLOSS!!!

........................still don't see any official announcement from Samsung? nor have they announced a date. Next month is a little over a couple of weeks.

BTW. I love the glossy screen. The screen is not glossy just to be glossy. It's a special film that they have been using on Laptop and some PC monitors (currently typing on a glossy LCD) for years. It dramatically improves black levels, and colours. Gives the image more pop like a good plasma can and more depth to the image.

All you crying about glossy screens are being little babies. If your so into Home Theater that you are willing to buy the best and latest, then why can't you get some freaking black out drapes or some decent curtains? I LOVE glossy! It gives an LCD an MUCH better picture. Id rather have a reflective screen then a dull matte screen anyday. So anyone you can't stand the gloss should leave this thread ASAP and never come back. Samsung realizes that they will lose some sales by doing this, but they also know that they will be gaining much more sales when people see how much better the glossy screens look.

I agree, when I first read about the 65 series, I too was caught up in the hysterics over the glossy screen. Then I turned on my brain, looked at my 36 inch panasonic flatscreen CRT hdtv, and realized that it's screen is reflective too, as is any CRT. Then I looked at my laptop, and realized that it's screen is reflective too. And, to keep things in perspective, just about everyone agrees that CRT's produce the best picture quality. So I though to myself, if I've been watching a reflective CRT all these years, why should a reflective LCD bother me? I believe most of the whining about glossiness in this forum is caused more by the over-anxious, anal retentive nature of the average home theater nut than it is by any real issues with the set. It seems to be par for the course in just about every home theater site I've been to. I understand since I'm a bit obsessive myself, but at least I'm realizing that quite a bit of it is in my head. That's my 2 cents.

I, for one, am quite happy with the possibilities of the glossy screen in order to gain on the greater depth it affords the overall picture. And yes, we have lived with glossy crt's in the past.

But, to the defense of those complaining about the glossy screens, I think that the issue is relevant as screen sizes have also increased. Prior to plasmas, lcd's and the such, the average consumer lived with a 32" or 36" crt on the larger end just fine. But now we're seeing screens in the 42, 50, 60 inch ranges and that tends to provide more surface area with a potential to reflect light. Just my 2 pesos.

If a glossy screen adds 5000 to CR then I for one would be willing to suffer with a lesser CR of ONLY 90,000 -95,000 :1 on an 81 series if it meant fewer reflections!

Bill

phigment

on engadget...but they took the article down.....i cant find it...it was something like samsungs christmas in july party.

I just stopped by futureshop today and saw a 5265f for the first time. I have been waiting for the 71/81 so i never bothered to check it out. I wanted to see how bad this reflection was. Wow. Its not bad at all. It was placed right next to a sharp lcd and pioneer plasma. The sharp had less to no glare ont he screen, but the blacks on the sharp were crap compared to the 65f. The plasma had even blacker blacks then the samsung lcd, but not as big a difference as the samsung and the sharp (the sharp was terrible). The glare on the plasma was horrible. But the samsung was not bad at all. Especially for a room like mine, it wouldent be a problem.

These 71/81 series tvs are serious bussiness. If you have direct light hitting your tv, shame on you. What kind of crappy home theater is that? If your not going to do it properly, and use a dark space with little to no light, then go buy a 61f tv and leave the 71/81 to the professional HDTV viewers. I would be more concerend about buying curtains and making my home theater room decor look better and create a better atmosphere. So many times I visit friends houses who all have great tvs, but looks like crap in their living room or in some corner in some bright room. bah. Tvs like this deserve dedication.

Well.....We can all agree that the glossy screen has the better picture right? Ive never heard anyone say that he/she thought the 61 looked better then the 65.

Absolutely wrong. In moderate or bright light the 61 is far superior IMO. Read the CNET review of the 4661, 61 has superior pic unless light controlled environment.

For us hardcore enthusiasts with light control, the news of a glossy screen is very positive indeed. I wouldn't be surprised at all to find out the sony xbr4 & 5 will also have a glossy screen as early reports suggest a contrast ratio of between 15 to 20 thousand. The only way to get a contrast that high is with a dynamic backlight and glossy screen.

Wrong again. Not the only way. Sharp does it without any gimmicks.
Yeah, you said it yourself, hardcore, your adjective, i.e. dark room.
Again, some of us do not like cave dwelling.

Ive been hoping for glossy LCD TVs for years now and Im happy that Samsung took the plunge. When I switched my LCD monitor 2 years ago for a glossy one, I couldn't believe how much better it looked then the matte. Always wondered why no TV did the same and now Samsung has answered the call of the gloss.

It's a plunge all right. Good for cave dwellers, yes. Good for those in denial that reflections even exist. Good for those that miss their old CRT crap tv. Not good for those who like some light and do not want to view themselves or their room on the screen.

BTW, people should be used to gloss by now. What the hell were people watching for the last 100 years!! GLOSSY CRT. Never heard anyone complain back in the day about reflections. Get used to it, reflections are back people.

Gloss is not back on any other brand, and may just be a passing Samsung gimmick. Anybody comparing CRT with these large screens is ignoring the differences. Old TV's were much smaller and sometimes curved. These panels are large and flat. Big difference in form factor. Big difference in reflection effect on viewing. Also, many LCD buyers have had LCD for a few years now and are used to matte, not CRT, and are not interested in plasma because of burn-in on 4:3 and gloss. Many people DO NOT WANT a plasma TV without the burn in problem (i.e. a glossy LCD).

but the blacks on the sharp were crap compared to the 65f. ... The glare on the plasma was horrible. But the samsung was not bad at all.
The Sharp you saw was not properly set up. Blacks on the d92 are outstanding and no black crush.

If you have direct light hitting your tv, shame on you. What kind of crappy home theater is that? If your not going to do it properly, and use a dark space with little to no light, then go buy a 61f tv and leave the 71/81 to the professional HDTV viewers.
Ridiculous. The 65 series is a joke for home theater. For home theater, go to the projector section and 100" screens. This is not a home theater section by any stretch.

I would be more concerend about buying curtains and making my home theater room decor look better and create a better atmosphere. So many times I visit friends houses who all have great tvs, but looks like crap in their living room or in some corner in some bright room. bah. Tvs like this deserve dedication.
Sorry but the typical person is not going to modify their home to accomodate a TV, turn a room into a black hole. Sure if you have a home theater, get a projector and turn down the lights. Now perhaps with a 65" Sharp you could begin to call it a home theater, but who ever heard of a 52" home theater screen?

If a glossy screen adds 5000 to CR then I for one would be willing to suffer with a lesser CR of ONLY 90,000 -95,000 :1 on an 81 series if it meant fewer reflections!

Bill

good point. ;)

The Sharp you saw was not properly set up. Blacks on the d92 are outstanding and no black crush.

Ridiculous. The 65 series is a joke for home theater. For home theater, go to the projector section and 100" screens. This is not a home theater section by any stretch.

Sorry but the typical person is not going to modify their home to accomodate a TV, turn a room into a black hole. Sure if you have a home theater, get a projector and turn down the lights. Now perhaps with a 65" Sharp you could begin to call it a home theater, but who ever heard of a 52" home theater screen?

In my opinion, matte screens make the image flat. If you are not interested in the 81 series because of the matte screens then you are entitled to your opinion, however, how many times are you going to visit this thread and complain about the glossy screens? Posting the same frustration over and over isn't going to make Samsung redesign the 81 series. If you like the Sharp then just purchase it and forget about the Samsung 81 series.

Posting a criticism and defending that point of view by responding to opposing points of view is a valid exercise so again why the complaint? I have a right to defend a point of view over and over again, just as you have that right.

Ridiculous. The 65 series is a joke for home theater. For home theater, go to the projector section and 100" screens. This is not a home theater section by any stretch.

I know many many home theater set-ups using a 52" LCD. To say you need projection and 100" screens is inaccurate.

The Sharp you saw was not properly set up. Blacks on the d92 are outstanding and no black crush.

Neither were the Samsung TVs nor the plasmas.


Ridiculous. The 65 series is a joke for home theater. For home theater, go to the projector section and 100" screens. This is not a home theater section by any stretch.

Sorry but the typical person is not going to modify their home to accomodate a TV, turn a room into a black hole. Sure if you have a home theater, get a projector and turn down the lights. Now perhaps with a 65" Sharp you could begin to call it a home theater, but who ever heard of a 52" home theater screen?

There are many different definitions for a home theater. For me, there are many different ways one can set up a home theater. For most common folks, a DVD player, surround system and a TV (not an HDTV) is enough for a basic home theater system.

The typical person is not going to buy a projector and have 100" screens. When I had my Sony HDTV CRT for two years, there were some reflections in the beginning. After making a few re-arrangements around the family room, I was able to minimize it. Lights coming from the window? Get some blinds or darker shades. Or you can try to use your brain and re-arrange the room. Good way to get some exercise. :)

When I had my Sony HDTV CRT for two years, there were some reflections in the beginning. After making a few re-arrangements around the family room, I was able to minimize it. Lights coming from the window? Get some blinds or darker shades. Or you can try to use your brain and re-arrange the room. Good way to get some exercise. :)

OK - Magnify the puny CRT 400% in size and add a wall full of windows with southern exposure with a friggin view the home owner has paid to see and ceilings that are very tall as are the windows - we don't all live in trailer parks or apts or outdated homes with 8' ceilings and 3' tall windows. Even with blinds light seeps through and reflects in a reflective screen unless you put up a $5K wall unit that encloses the panel from reflections and sun washout. Blinds are for the former mentioned owners of such residences not those with larger homes/condo's with views to the real 3D world beyond the TV. Blinds only go so far for those with minimalist type homes and apts. :)

I second the motion on this request.

I am a little worried that the width of the 40 inch model will take it off my short list. (No room in the AV center). I hope we can get hard info soon. Love this place. G

I speculate that 57-inch model might contain more LEDs than 40-inch one so, consequently, the former should have more clusters than the latter perhaps resulting in slightly better CR on the 57''. This might explain "60 or 70" clusters comment on Gizmodo.

These 71/81 series tvs are serious bussiness. If you have direct light hitting your tv, shame on you. What kind of crappy home theater is that? If your not going to do it properly, and use a dark space with little to no light, then go buy a 61f tv and leave the 71/81 to the professional HDTV viewers.

What ??? Sorry we don't all live in a cave like you do, and don't take our home theater as serious as you. :rolleyes:

I like to read while watching TV I know the horror how dare I, I also have big windows with southern exposure OH THE HUMANATY. I have an active live style, I am not a troll that lives in a cave like some of you obviously are.

Yes CRTs have reflections and I have always hated them, why would anyone want to go back to that??? We are supposed to be moving FORWARD you know progress. Every time I hear someone say they don't build them like they used to I say THANK GOD.

Well, you don't have to get the latest Samsung panels if you have problems with reflections. You can always try other brands like Sony, Sharp, Toshiba, Mitsubishi, etc. It's not like Samsung is the only company that makes HDTV LCD.

taurus

I will upgrade to the TV that works best for me that my or my not be the 81 have to wait to see one.

Just upsets me when some troll claims that its only "professional HDTV viewers". Here is a hint troll very very few "professional HDTV viewer" use LCD and that fact that you don't know that speaks volumes of your knowledge.

I think Samsung is getting close to putting them on their Web site... they are down to listing the 5265 as the only LCD they have that is over 50". Two day ago they had 3 models listed; yesterday they had 2 models listed.

I am a little worried that the width of the 40 inch model will take it off my short list. (No room in the AV center). I hope we can get hard info soon. Love this place. G

Yeah, I was looking for width specs. Does anyone know where they are?? I thought I saw them earlier, but went through the posts and links again, and can't seen to find them.

I have not dissected all the postings on this thread of late, but on 7/11, Samsung made a major announcement re: the 71/81 series including pricing, all detailed on Engadget, Gizmodo, Twice.com - specifically this excellent article:

http://www.twice.com/article/CA6459449.html

Assuming this is old news here, what does "protected distribution" actually mean for the average or savvy consumer who buys at a large discount ie. from Amazon etc. Is the 5K MSRP figure for the 52" going to be the actual street price (and for how long)? The US Supreme Court recently ruled that "resale price maintenance" agreements are not per se violative of the anti-trust laws, an open invitation to companies like Samsung to effectively set price floors for boutique items like the 81. Their lawyers surely know this. Are the days of "Why we can't show this price" numbered?

Does anyone have an opinion of what the following means for pricing and availability?

"Stepping up is the 81 series, which will receive a protected distribution policy targeting A/V specialty dealers, installers and sales-driven regional accounts."

Personally, I would like a choice between matte and glossy for the 81 series. I doubt if Samsung is going to do this. IMO this is a primarily an MBA driven decision, ie. what's going to sell more units. Laptops have largely gone this way, but the issues w/them are different.

I have a 24" matte near high definition PC screen which is matte. I would never consider working on a glossy computer screen like the old CRTS I had 10 years ago.

On the other hand, I still have a 32" Sony XBR tube in my living room that I have had for at least 10 years. My room has a lot of lighting and I have gotten used to just closing the curtains. If I had a large sunny room with a lot of people over, a glossy screen would not be my first choice. This is one reason I dont' like plasma screens. This, apparently for many, is a non-trivial issue.

I am sure there are sound technical and business rationales for Samsung to "go its own way" on LCDs w/these glossy screens. For me, I go back to the comparison w/the experience of going to a movie theatre. The screen there, whatever it is made of, appears as if it has a matte finish. People would be appallled if they went to a movie theatre and were met w/ a glossy anti-reflective screen to view the film thru.

If the superior PQ of the 81 series outweighs the annoyance of having reflections, I will go for it.

What are Sony's plans for having an 81-like (LED backlit) series beyond its 70" model? Why would Sony allow Samsung to get a jump on them?

What are Sony's plans for having an 81-like (LED backlit) series beyond its 70" model? Why would Sony allow Samsung to get a jump on them?

Must I remind you that it was Sony that sought out Samsung's technological expertise and manufacturing abilities to help in the production of their lcd screens?

OK - Magnify the puny CRT 400% in size and add a wall full of windows with southern exposure with a friggin view the home owner has paid to see and ceilings that are very tall as are the windows - we don't all live in trailer parks or apts or outdated homes with 8' ceilings and 3' tall windows. Even with blinds light seeps through and reflects in a reflective screen unless you put up a $5K wall unit that encloses the panel from reflections and sun washout. Blinds are for the former mentioned owners of such residences not those with larger homes/condo's with views to the real 3D world beyond the TV. Blinds only go so far for those with minimalist type homes and apts. :)

I can't imagine a 136" (I currently have 34XBR960) TV but since you put it that way; I don't see where creativity should be put to a halt. If windows are a problem because of a reflective screen, then take the following steps:

1. Find a solution to minimize light to enhance your viewing pleasure. Blinds are the only option as you can use drapes, shades, shutters, etc. If that doesn't work, then you can try to rearrange the room.
2. If no. 1 doesn't solve the problem, then click "LCD Flat Panel Display" at the top of the page and look for other options. Hasta luego!

Does anyone have an opinion of what the following means for pricing and availability?

"Stepping up is the 81 series, which will receive a protected distribution policy targeting A/V specialty dealers, installers and sales-driven regional accounts."[/QUOTE]

I would take the "protected distribution policy" statement to mean that Big Box stores, like Walmart and Target, will not carry the 81 series "high end" line in the same way that very high end AV equipment is distributed only by the AV specialty stores. Whether mainstream retail stores for the masses (such as Sears, BB, CC, and even Amazon) will be excluded from selling the 81 series remains to be seen.

I would think the 81 series will be carried in Magnolia stores if anything. They usually carry the higher end stuff anyway.

These 71/81 series tvs are serious bussiness. If you have direct light hitting your tv, shame on you. What kind of crappy home theater is that? If your not going to do it properly, and use a dark space with little to no light, then go buy a 61f tv and leave the 71/81 to the professional HDTV viewers. I would be more concerend about buying curtains and making my home theater room decor look better and create a better atmosphere. So many times I visit friends houses who all have great tvs, but looks like crap in their living room or in some corner in some bright room. bah. Tvs like this deserve dedication.
Can you crawl back into your hole now? I'm sure you need to get back in training for the Pro TV Watchers Circuit.

As much as I'd like to believe that 'local dimming' technology is finally here and almost in the stores, this Samsung version is such a bastardized and cheapened version that I'll pass. Sixty to seventy clusters? Please...what kind of resolution is that? I don't see any way it can work without causing more problems than it solves.

The glossy screen is a cheap marketing gimmick that only seals the deal. No sale, Samsung.

Blackframe insertion sounds like a surefire way to get flicker, ...
LED BLUs are bright enough to do a duty cycle of something like 75% on/ 25% off at 120Hz. You should not see flicker from 2ms of blank at 120hz.

Now back to caveboy vs glitboy.

so roughly how long does it take for a price drop? a 40" 81 series would be sweet, but with an estimabed $3000 price point how long do you think it would take for it to reach the high $1000's, low $2000's range?

Lets take the 65/66 series as an rough example for estimating of this
Please make similiar comparsions for US models like I do below:
I live in Europe (Sweden), so our prices is of course higher. Here the msrp for this 65-series 40" Sammy model was $3000 when released in March, and is now down to $2200 (in Germany it goes for around $2000).

Whats intresting is that Sony's new flagship in Europe for the moment - D3000, had when released in June, an msrp of $3000 (40"), but sells for $2500 in stores. Compare this to Sony's last years model V2500, it costs know $2000 and initial price was a bit over $3000 about a year ago. Sammy tends to drop somewhat more than Sony, but maybe that's a new era with the 71/81 series

Hey Mark 1080p. I got a Sony Pearl projecting onto a 110" screen and sit 14 feet away. 7.1 setup with lossless audio and some nice PSB speakers. Have both BD and HD hooked up. The 81 is for my second home theatre setup. :D Is that hardcore enough for you bra.

Yeah, I was looking for width specs. Does anyone know where they are?? I thought I saw them earlier, but went through the posts and links again, and can't seen to find them.

Hey Studdad,

I am back from my self-imposed posting rehab, but I will still remain less active, to kick this habit :D

I see that Mark_1080P is the voice of dissent on these glossy screens (anticipated 71/81 series and the current 65). One thing that I agree with Mark is on the subject of people referring to these TVs, as a "home theater" TV. I concur with Mark and would not go that far to call them HT. These are all very nice TVs, but to me, HT is 60" in a true HT setting. Otherwise, it just a nice family room TV.

As you know, I had the 65 before I sent it back (1016/1004 with HDMI issues) and settled on the matte 61. I am very glad that I no longer need to attenuate almost every light in the family room to enjoy the darn TV, although the 65 was not any worse than my old Sony Trinitron CRT. The 61 does look a bit washed out when viewed at 45+ degree angle and the 65 was better than the 61 in that respect. I do not regret going with the matte finish, since I have realized that Samsung is now going the way of these glossy screens (for the foreseeable future, to amp up their DCR figures). If glare is a major factor, those 61 series are very nice TVs for their features and can be had at around 1.5K to 2K from Amazon.

I am not too hard on the design and the ergonomics of those 71/81 and I do find them very acceptable and tolerable. Samsung does quite a nice job and packaging their TVs, without making them weighing a whole ton. However, my gripe with the 71/81 series (at least from what I see on the photos), is the fact that they seem to be wider (overall width) because of the bezel. As much as I liked the Sony XBR, it was the XBR's floating glass bezel that killed it for me. Some of us are restricted with respect to the space which we have and making a 46" TV to be almost 50" wide, render it useless.

In any case, I am going to kick back and relax till all the issues and the bantering is done with the 81 series, before I contemplate on jumping in (perhaps in a year when their price falls down to earth). Right now, I am quite content with my two 61s.

P.S. For those who are considering the 61 from Amazon, do not wait too long. I really think (pure speculation on my part) that their 61/65 inventory level is hitting the bottom and once the 71/81 come to the market, you will not be able to get a 61/65 from Amazon (from affiliated merchants perhaps, but they are not the same).

JM2C.

Hey Studdad,

I am back from my self-imposed posting rehab, but I will still remain less active, to kick this habit :D

I see that Mark_1080P is the voice of dissent on these glossy screens (anticipated 71/81 series and the current 65). One thing that I agree with Mark is on the subject of people referring to these TVs, as a "home theater" TV. I concur with Mark and would not go that far to call them HT. These are all very nice TVs, but to me, HT is 60" in a true HT setting. Otherwise, it just a nice family room TV.

As you know, I had the 65 before I sent it back (1016/1004 with HDMI issues) and settled on the matte 61. I am very glad that I no longer need to attenuate almost every light in the family room to enjoy the darn TV, although the 65 was not any worse than my old Sony Trinitron CRT. The 61 does look a bit washed out when viewed at 45+ degree angle and the 65 was better than the 61 in that respect. I do not regret going with the matte finish, since I have realized that Samsung is now going the way of these glossy screens (for the foreseeable future, to amp up their DCR figures). If glare is a major factor, those 61 series are very nice TVs for their features and can be had at around 1.5K to 2K from Amazon.

I am not too hard on the design and the ergonomics of those 71/81 and I do find them very acceptable and tolerable. Samsung does quite a nice job and packaging their TVs, without making them weighing a whole ton. However, my gripe with the 71/81 series (at least from what I see on the photos), is the fact that they seem to be wider (overall width) because of the bezel. As much as I liked the Sony XBR, it was the XBR's floating glass bezel that killed it for me. Some of us are restricted with respect to the space which we have and making a 46" TV to be almost 50" wide, render it useless.

In any case, I am going to kick back and relax till all the issues and the bantering is done with the 81 series, before I contemplate on jumping in (perhaps in a year when their price falls down to earth). Right now, I am quite content with my two 61s.

P.S. For those who are considering the 61 from Amazon, do not wait too long. I really think (pure speculation on my part) that their 61/65 inventory level is hitting the bottom and once the 71/81 come to the market, you will not be able to get a 61/65 from Amazon (from affiliated merchants perhaps, but they are not the same).

JM2C.

WB AX, lol. But keep up with your company,,,,gotta work to be able to afford all the cool new stuff. My decision will be made here pretty quickly, but still floating between the 65, 71, and Tosh lx177. I hope to have a decision by the end of August (Football Season and all). Personal reviews are just starting on the Tosh, and the 71 hasn't shipped yet, so still in the same position I was.

P.S. For those who are considering the 61 from Amazon, do not wait too long. I really think (pure speculation on my part) that their 61/65 inventory level is hitting the bottom and once the 71/81 come to the market, you will not be able to get a 61/65 from Amazon (from affiliated merchants perhaps, but they are not the same).
JM2C.

I think you convinced me to get with the 61 (not wait for 71) since I have a very bright living room full of 6 foot high windows with a southern exposure. This CNET review mentions a denterlacing of video based 1080i content problem firmware update will be included with new 61's that arrive in stores in mid to late July. However, if I wait Amazon may run out? Do you think I should wait a few weeks in hopes of getting a completely updated set or buy it now to make sure I get one? I am currently using a 36 " Hitachi tube TV with no HD although I have a Comcast HD cable box. Hey, this was my first post :D


From the CNET review:

"For what it's worth, Samsung sent us a firmware update that worked with both sets to fix the deinterlacing of video-based, but not film-based, 1080i content and to show every line of a 1080-resolution test pattern. (This update is not reflected in our Geek Box results.) Update 06-20-07: We originally reported here that the firmware update would be available as a download from Samsung's web site. Now we hear from the company that the update may instead only be available to owners who call the Service Center and ask to have it sent. We'll update this section again when we're told more. New TVs equipped with the updated firmware will arrive on store shelves, according to Samsung, by mid- to late July 2007."

Posting a criticism and defending that point of view by responding to opposing points of view is a valid exercise so again why the complaint? I have a right to defend a point of view over and over again, just as you have that right.

I do understand how glossy screens do not work in all environments and I have experienced problems in the past in my family room even with a non-gloss screen.

However, this is a thread to discuss the Samsung 81 series panel which will have a glossy screen like it or not.

If you want to debate or complain about a glossy screen then why not create a thread for this rather than continuously fill this thread with complaints about Samsung's choice to use a glossy screen. Even label it I hate the Samsung 81's glossy screens!!! :p

For those of us who prefer the glossy screen it gets tiring hearing the same complaints over and over from an individual. This is really nothing but a never ending debate that isn't adding any value to this thread.

I have not dissected all the postings on this thread of late, but on 7/11, Samsung made a major announcement re: the 71/81 series including pricing, all detailed on Engadget, Gizmodo, Twice.com - specifically this excellent article:

http://www.twice.com/article/CA6459449.html

Assuming this is old news here, what does "protected distribution" actually mean for the average or savvy consumer who buys at a large discount ie. from Amazon etc. Is the 5K MSRP figure for the 52" going to be the actual street price (and for how long)? The US Supreme Court recently ruled that "resale price maintenance" agreements are not per se violative of the anti-trust laws, an open invitation to companies like Samsung to effectively set price floors for boutique items like the 81. Their lawyers surely know this. Are the days of "Why we can't show this price" numbered?

Does anyone have an opinion of what the following means for pricing and availability?

"Stepping up is the 81 series, which will receive a protected distribution policy targeting A/V specialty dealers, installers and sales-driven regional accounts."

I am wondering about this as well. If I were to make an educated guess that would mean there is limited supply on these panels and they will be distributed in high end stores. The bad thing is that stores like Magnolia and others won't deal much on prices (as far as I know anyway). Typically I've found that 25-30% off MSRP has been realistic on Samsung TVs which would put it within range for me to compare the 57" model to the Pioneer 6010. I like the brightness of LCDs over plasmas and after seeing the 65 series I bet the new Sammy's are really nice.

WB AX, lol. But keep up with your company,,,,gotta work to be able to afford all the cool new stuff. My decision will be made here pretty quickly, but still floating between the 65, 71, and Tosh lx177. I hope to have a decision by the end of August (Football Season and all). Personal reviews are just starting on the Tosh, and the 71 hasn't shipped yet, so still in the same position I was.

LOL. You've got to earn it first to be able to spend it later (well theoretically, unless you let your credit cards do the job for you and hope that the Chinese keep financing our consumer debt-well, I am now getting off the soap box ;) ).

Lemme make it simple for you: 65 + 71 +77 = 213.

213/3 = 71 :eek: :p :D

I think you convinced me to get with the 61 (not wait for 71) since I have a very bright living room full of 6 foot high windows with a southern exposure. This CNET review mentions a denterlacing of video based 1080i content problem firmware update will be included with new 61's that arrive in stores in mid to late July. However, if I wait Amazon may run out? Do you think I should wait a few weeks in hopes of getting a completely updated set or buy it now to make sure I get one? I am currently using a 36 " Hitachi tube TV with no HD although I have a Comcast HD cable box. Hey, this was my first post :D


From the CNET review:

"For what it's worth, Samsung sent us a firmware update that worked with both sets to fix the deinterlacing of video-based, but not film-based, 1080i content and to show every line of a 1080-resolution test pattern. (This update is not reflected in our Geek Box results.) Update 06-20-07: We originally reported here that the firmware update would be available as a download from Samsung's web site. Now we hear from the company that the update may instead only be available to owners who call the Service Center and ask to have it sent. We'll update this section again when we're told more. New TVs equipped with the updated firmware will arrive on store shelves, according to Samsung, by mid- to late July 2007."

Yes, I read that article too before I had made up my mind to switch from the 4665 to 4661 (plus I saved over $600 in the process: bough the 4665 at CC and paid sales tax-bought the 4661 from Amazon and got a few price adjustments since-I used the net savings to buy a Sammy BD player plus 8 BD movies at a Fry's special deal of 2 for $25 ;) ).

That 1080i deinterlacing technical jargon is all techie geek talk to me. I don't understand it in a tangible way. So I am not so concerned. Just for sh*ts and giggles, I had called Samsung tier 2 to ask them about a FW update and still no downloadable updates are available to the public for such bugs (none HDMI issues). I will remain patient and hope for a merry X-Mas from Samsung :rolleyes:

On the purchase from Amazon and the depletion of their inventory, you are asking me a "timing" question which i am terribly bad at :o . To me it seems that Amazon is going to be done with these models very soon. My hunch is based on the fact that you now will get the price right away, by going to their price page, without having to click onto the link to get the lower price. From my experience, this is when the manufacturer does not care about bucking the price at the discount sellers. If Amazon runs out, you will have to deal with their affiliated sellers, who will not offer you Amazon's very liberal return policies. I still think that Amazon has enough stocks through late August on these 61/65 series.

JM2Cs.

LOL. You've got to earn it first to be able to spend it later (well theoretically, unless you let your credit cards do the job for you and hope that the Chinese keep financing our consumer debt-well, I am now getting off the soap box ;) ).

Lemme make it simple for you: 65 + 71 +77 = 213.

213/3 = 71 :eek: :p :D

Lmao

I think that Amazon will def. have 61/65 series available for the next couple of months. The LNT4665F is the #1 best-selling TV on Amazon right now... actually the top 3 TVs are from the 61/65 series. I wonder if we have a price drop coming on these TVs anytime soon.

Anyone have "official" information about the 81's release date?
I went to the local Video Only shop and he had a release date in his book for the 71 series, but nothing on the 81...he had never heard of it, and when I explained what it was he got all snooty and said that LED backlit panels wont be out for at least a year cause they can't get them bright enough (or something along those lines)

So what is the 71 release date?

Both 71/81 series should be out next month but 81 panel would be limited prodution. So, I don't think every store will carry the 81 panel.

So what is the 71 release date?

I didn't see the day, but it was in a list of things that were being released, and they all began with 8's....so August is when that store is expecting them.

Hey Mark 1080p. I got a Sony Pearl projecting onto a 110" screen and sit 14 feet away. 7.1 setup with lossless audio and some nice PSB speakers. Have both BD and HD hooked up. The 81 is for my second home theatre setup. :D Is that hardcore enough for you bra.Now you're talking theater, in the first case that is. :D :D

Anyone have "official" information about the 81's release date?
I went to the local Video Only shop and he had a release date in his book for the 71 series, but nothing on the 81...he had never heard of it, and when I explained what it was he got all snooty and said that LED backlit panels wont be out for at least a year cause they can't get them bright enough (or something along those lines)

He may be snooty, but in his case he's probably right as far as when he'll receive the product. Video Only won't be carrying the 81 series this year. It will only be available to high end shops, and custom installers. So that rules out Frys, Best Buy, Circuit City, Video Only, other general retailers.

I do understand how glossy screens do not work in all environments and I have experienced problems in the past in my family room even with a non-gloss screen.

However, this is a thread to discuss the Samsung 81 series panel which will have a glossy screen like it or not.

If you want to debate or complain about a glossy screen then why not create a thread for this rather than continuously fill this thread with complaints about Samsung's choice to use a glossy screen. Even label it I hate the Samsung 81's glossy screens!!! :p

For those of us who prefer the glossy screen it gets tiring hearing the same complaints over and over from an individual. This is really nothing but a never ending debate that isn't adding any value to this thread.

Yes, glossy screens are no good in my family room environment either. It would just be nice if Samsung gave us the choice of screen type with the new ld led technologhy. I'm sure it will happen eventually but how hard would it have been for them to do it concurrently with the 81 series and please both groups, like the 61 and 65 series?

If those MSRP prices are correct, the 81-series could turn out to be a good alternative to the Pioneer 1080p Kuros.....I am really looking forward to a head to head-to-head shootout between the Pioneer PDP 5010FD and the Sammy LN-T5281F...both of which have $5000 MSRPs!!!!

Previous Samsung LED 100Hz(euro) LCD was not great .(just ok reviews ; not great)
But of course 81-series(or what ever it will called in europe) can change all this. Just little reminder for you guys. We have seen hype and reality with sharp, sony etc. for delivering perfect LCD.

Heres a link with some pictures from gizmodo. I don't think its been posted yet.

http://www.gizmodo.com.au/2007/07/hands_on_with_samsungs_newest.html

Previous Samsung LED 100Hz(euro) LCD was not great ...
1st gen of most new technology is usually marginal. Based to technical specs for some 2nd gen solution, 2nd gen should be much better. But, that will only apply to the manufactures that put in a beefy processor.

Same with this 1st gen LED BLU TVs. Actually, it ~12th gen LED BLU. The prior 11 revs did not make the grade - a weak color, uniformity, power efficiency, cost,...

Lets take the 65/66 series as an rough example for estimating of this
Please make similiar comparsions for US models like I do below:
I live in Europe (Sweden), so our prices is of course higher. Here the msrp for this 65-series 40" Sammy model was $3000 when released in March, and is now down to $2200 (in Germany it goes for around $2000).

Whats intresting is that Sony's new flagship in Europe for the moment - D3000, had when released in June, an msrp of $3000 (40"), but sells for $2500 in stores. Compare this to Sony's last years model V2500, it costs know $2000 and initial price was a bit over $3000 about a year ago. Sammy tends to drop somewhat more than Sony, but maybe that's a new era with the 71/81 series

What is US' 81-series called in Europe? Is it known? Any educated guesses?

However, this is a thread to discuss the Samsung 81 series panel which will have a glossy screen like it or not.

... continuously fill this thread with complaints about Samsung's choice to use a glossy screen.Well it was only very recently confirmed that the screen on the butt-ugly fat boxy bezel 71 and 81 series will be glossy so a flurry of comments is not unreasonable. Do you not believe that the phrase "continuously fill this thread" is a bit over the top? :D :D

Let's get real: This plastic box is not going to win any design awards anytime soon :p .

Now on the number of clusters of RGB LED's, we really should give this thing a chance. It may perform very well, we shall see. The increased CR of the 71 is a good sign as well, and perhaps the degree of gloss will be diminished relative to the 65 series.

Let's face it: The 65 series is a line of 1080 plasma TV's without burn-in. Yea, they are brighter.

Guess what: The reason why many people are in this section is they do not want plasma TV. Any wonder why the gloss is an issue for many?

What is US' 81-series called in Europe? Is it known? Any educated guesses?

M96 or M97 or something else.

Let's get real: This plastic box is not going to win any design awards anytime soon :p .

Go away Mr. Interior Decorator. This plastic box is going to win awards for PQ.

http://www.blogsmithmedia.com/www.engadget.com/media/2007/07/img_1473.jpg

Got excited when I heard about the 120hz & thought I may have found my dream set. If it has a glossy screen, I will be forced to bow out since that is my #1 concern before I part with my hard earned $. I can't imagine anyone with atleast 1 window in their room would be interested. I put up with a RPT Tosh for too long that was pretty bad. It is SO annoying & distracting I ended up selling it to a buddy for cheap (sucker). The 37" Vizio I have now has no reflection & I LOVE it (except the stupid shiny black border, I actually bought some black 2" felt border tape off EBAY & covered it). If there is another 120hz out there with a matt screen, please let me know. I may have to wait until next year when Vizio catches up.

Go away Mr. Interior Decorator. This plastic box is going to win awards for PQ.
Yea, with the lights out. Then you can't see the ugly design anyway, so I guess that's good for cave dwellers.

Got excited when I heard about the 120hz & thought I may have found my dream set. If it has a glossy screen, I will be forced to bow out since that is my #1 concern before I part with my hard earned $. I can't imagine anyone with atleast 1 window in their room would be interested. I put up with a RPT Tosh for too long that was pretty bad. It is SO annoying & distracting I ended up selling it to a buddy for cheap (sucker). The 37" Vizio I have now has no reflection & I LOVE it (except the stupid shiny black border, I actually bought some black 2" felt border tape off EBAY & covered it). If there is another 120hz out there with a matt screen, please let me know. I may have to wait until next year when Vizio catches up.

Take a look at the new Toshiba LX177 line, just started shipping this last week or so.

i think the sonys are matte screen as well

Yea, with the lights out. Then you can't see the ugly design anyway, so I guess that's good for cave dwellers.

Then why are you even posting on this thread if you don't watch display with lights out/dimmed environment? You don't need this super contrast, you aren't worthy of 81 series. 81 series doesn't want you. 81 series is made for PQ freaks. PQ heaven is finally here.

Then why are you even posting on this thread if you don't watch display with lights out/dimmed environment? You don't need this super contrast, you aren't worthy of 81 series. 81 series doesn't want you. 81 series is made for PQ freaks. PQ heaven is finally here.


And you've seen the 81 series where?

Has anyone checked to see if the 71 or 81 is available to preorder at Best Buy/Magnolia?

Has anyone checked to see if the 71 or 81 is available to preorder at Best Buy/Magnolia?

Nope, but you could go on their website and see.

Can anybody comment why Sammy Gen#6 comes in 3 incarnations 61, 65, 66, and Gen #7 and #8 have only one version x1? IMO we suppose to expect that each family will be broken down onto number of subversion - xx71, xx75, xx76, xx81, xx85, xx86.
Any ideas?

I stand by my original comments. If your looking into the 71/81 series tv, then you should indeed be looking into a nice home theater setup. If your not building a home theater, and you just want a tv for your family room, go buy a 61 series.

Live in a cave? none of you have ever been to a movie theater have you? It suppose to be dark. Rather then complain about a glosyy finish to improve blacks, I mentioned the fact that many people here are buying these for their fair lit living rooms. If I was selling you a tv today and that was your situation, I would not recommend buying a 71/81. Everyone here seems like they want the lattest and greatest technology for their family tv. Im confused by this.

I myself have turned my room into a home theater of sorts and I will be happy to show pictures of it once I get my new 81 tv in place (my current 27" crt does not do the arrangement of the room justice). Theres a window in the room, but lighting can easily be controlled because theres freaking blinds on the window. My room looks better then any of my friends set-ups, and Im doing it all on the smallest budget ever imaginable. When I watch movies, I always get that feeling like im at a theater, which is how I believe movie watching should be. When the family is watching a dvd downstairs, I come down and Its not enjoyable at all. Big open room, light coming from everywhere. Even at night there is no atmosphere. This room is fine for a family/living room, but for watching movies (not tv) I cant be bothered. My parents however dont care about a dedicated HT setup like most of use here on the forum do.

I stand by my original comments. If your looking into the 71/81 series tv, then you should indeed be looking into a nice home theater setup. If your not building a home theater, and you just want a tv for your family room, go buy a 61 series.

Live in a cave? none of you have ever been to a movie theater have you? It suppose to be dark. Rather then complain about a glosyy finish to improve blacks, I mentioned the fact that many people here are buying these for their fair lit living rooms. If I was selling you a tv today and that was your situation, I would not recommend buying a 71/81. Everyone here seems like they want the lattest and greatest technology for their family tv. Im confused by this.

I myself have turned my room into a home theater of sorts and I will be happy to show pictures of it once I get my new 81 tv in place (my current 27" crt does not do the arrangement of the room justice). Theres a window in the room, but lighting can easily be controlled because theres freaking blinds on the window. My room looks better then any of my friends set-ups, and Im doing it all on the smallest budget ever imaginable. When I watch movies, I always get that feeling like im at a theater, which is how I believe movie watching should be. When the family is watching a dvd downstairs, I come down and Its not enjoyable at all. Big open room, light coming from everywhere. Even at night there is no atmosphere. This room is fine for a family/living room, but for watching movies (not tv) I cant be bothered. My parents however dont care about a dedicated HT setup like most of use here on the forum do.

To each their own, but I do have to say, the glare issue is not that big of a deal unless you have a window directly behind the viewing area. I have large windows on either side of our living room, and they are adjacent to the tv, and glossy screens have never really been that bad. Take a look at the 61/65 thread, plenty of people were worried about it, but then chose the 65 anyway, and nearly every one of them as has commented on it not being the big deal that everyone made it out to be.

So, again, I don't want to get into an arguement here, but I think for many people, a small amount of glare is really a non-issue, and there is really no reason to have total light control (just not behind the viewing area) in order to enjoy this TV.

To each their own, but I do have to say, the glare issue is not that big of a deal unless you have a window directly behind the viewing area. I have large windows on either side of our living room, and they are adjacent to the tv, and glossy screens have never really been that bad. Take a look at the 61/65 thread, plenty of people were worried about it, but then chose the 65 anyway, and nearly every one of them as has commented on it not being the big deal that everyone made it out to be.

So, again, I don't want to get into an arguement here, but I think for many people, a small amount of glare is really a non-issue, and there is really no reason to have total light control (just not behind the viewing area) in order to enjoy this TV.

That's a relief; the only windows in my viewing room will be behind the TV, and direct sunlight can't really get through the trees and blinds. I think I should be alright with the 81 series. :D

Can anybody comment why Sammy Gen#6 comes in 3 incarnations 61, 65, 66, and Gen #7 and #8 have only one version x1? IMO we suppose to expect that each family will be broken down onto number of subversion - xx71, xx75, xx76, xx81, xx85, xx86.
Any ideas?

The 66 was a Best Buy Model. I would imagine only having the xx71 would leave room for future improvements to be marketed under the xx75/xx85 numbers.

That's a relief; the only windows in my viewing room will be behind the TV, and direct sunlight can't really get through the trees and blinds. I think I should be alright with the 81 series. :D

If your only window is behind the tv, you will have no issue at all. However, if you have a low lamp or light directly behind your viewing area, in most cases you will want to turn it off or you will see it in the screen. The bottom line, yes, there will be some reflection even with ambiant light, but once the tv is turned on, it is not that noticeable unless you are trying to look for it. It will be the most noticable in very dark scenes, but in lighter scenes, you would be hard pressed to find it. So here are the rules:

1). If your viewing area is right in front of the tv, i.e. direct view, you should not have any windows behind you, or turned on lights for that matter (although lights are not as bad during the day).

2). If you sit off-angle, then you have to look at the opposite angle to determine if light will be a factor. For example, lets assume you normally sit 5 feet to the right of the direct viewing area (which is not optimum for an LCD anyway). The screen, like any reflective surface, will reflect back light from 5 feet to the left of the viewing area. So if you have a window on the left, it may effect your view depending on where it is positioned.

3). If you want to black out a window for viewing, it is always best to use either heavy curtains or black out blinds. Regular blinds still let in a lot of light, and you will see the blinds in the reflection.

4). You may be perfectly fine with your normal viewing area, but if you move around a lot, i.e. watch from a work area, or from the dining room table, or kitchen while making dinner, you will have to figure in those viewing angles as well, if it matters to you.

Keep these things in mind, and you should have no problems. Yes, it is more limiting than a matte finish, but for most people it is not a big deal. If it is a big deal, then check out other options, such as the Toshiba LX177 line, or the upcoming Sony and Mitsubishi lines (if they have matte screens, I am not sure on the Sony or Mitsubishi).

One last thing...if you currently have a tube tv, these screens are no more reflective than a tube. Yes there will be more viewing area, but the amount of reflection on the tube will give you a good idea of the amount of reflection on this tv.

Yes, glossy screens are no good in my family room environment either. It would just be nice if Samsung gave us the choice of screen type with the new ld led technologhy. I'm sure it will happen eventually but how hard would it have been for them to do it concurrently with the 81 series and please both groups, like the 61 and 65 series?

Sounds like the 81s will be in limited production for now so maybe that's why Samsung didn't offer the option. Maybe in the next model. A choice would definitely be a good thing!

Well it was only very recently confirmed that the screen on the butt-ugly fat boxy bezel 71 and 81 series will be glossy so a flurry of comments is not unreasonable. Do you not believe that the phrase "continuously fill this thread" is a bit over the top? :D :D

Let's get real: This plastic box is not going to win any design awards anytime soon :p .

Now on the number of clusters of RGB LED's, we really should give this thing a chance. It may perform very well, we shall see. The increased CR of the 71 is a good sign as well, and perhaps the degree of gloss will be diminished relative to the 65 series.

Let's face it: The 65 series is a line of 1080 plasma TV's without burn-in. Yea, they are brighter.

Guess what: The reason why many people are in this section is they do not want plasma TV. Any wonder why the gloss is an issue for many?

Over the top? Maybe. Regardless, you've more than made your point how you hate the glossy screen on many occasions. Can we please give it a rest? :)

I do agree that some are here because they are afraid of burn in and don't like glare on plasmas. But there are also some some her like me that really like the picture quality of plasma and think the glass screen improves the image quality but prefer the brightness and sharpness of an LCD. Not to mention that these displays may top the Pioneer plasmas in black level.

The 66 was a Best Buy Model. I would imagine only having the xx71 would leave room for future improvements to be marketed under the xx75/xx85 numbers.

Samy xx61 is known to be CCFL 72% non-glossy version of WCG-CCFL 92% glossy xx65s. From this point of view xx71 is an upscaled equivalent of xx65. IMO this is very confusing and misleading.

Live in a cave? none of you have ever been to a movie theater have you? It suppose to be dark. Rather then complain about a glosyy finish to improve blacks, I mentioned the fact that many people here are buying these for their fair lit living rooms. If I was selling you a tv today and that was your situation, I would not recommend buying a 71/81. Everyone here seems like they want the lattest and greatest technology for their family tv. Im confused by this.Be confused no longer. One can clearly see the difference between a 1300:1 and 2000:1 native contrast LCD in a modestly lit room. I have had the Sammy 5296 and now the 4661. The 61 easily bests the previous model, and it does not take total darkness to see it, not even close. These matte screens soak up ambient very well, so that the latest and greatest does produce noticably better blacks even with some lighting.

When I watch movies, I always get that feeling like im at a theater, which is how I believe movie watching should be. When the family is watching a dvd downstairs, I come down and Its not enjoyable at all. Big open room, light coming from everywhere. Even at night there is no atmosphere. This room is fine for a family/living room, but for watching movies (not tv) I cant be bothered.To each his own, but some prefer a more open environment, I for one have a projector/screen but to be honest the thrill wore thin. TV screen in a normal environment surrounded by nice furnishings, others in the room can read or surf, just seems more relaxing. Eyes not darting around, flashes of light less bothersome since ambient light prevents the eye from having to strain under rapid intensity variations. Its just a more natural way and more relaxing way to view a movie, discovery, news, or anything else. To each his own. No crap reflections, though, please. Who wants to watch themselves watching TV?

... some here like me ... really like the picture quality of plasma ... Ah, now the cat is out of the bag ...

Well if people would just understand that studdad's post is very reasonable, there would be no debate, but some are just in denial.

I guess my point is why would you even use a glossy screen when high-end matte finishes are available? I can't imagine that the thin piece of glass would make that much difference in the overall PQ or maybe I am missing something here.. I mean.. I think the PQ on my Vizio is outstanding AND no reflection at all. I'm sure there is better, but it proves it can be done. Come on Sammy, make a set for those of us that don't live in a cave! I don't want to see my white cabinets every time someone opens the fridge door! It bugs me! HA!
Anyways- I would love to see both a matte & glossy version of the 81 side-by-side so I could see for myself. I do not have the luxury of a viewing area that could ever be completely dark. Summer time in the Pacific N.W. can get up to16 hours of sunlight a day, so that compounds the problem of my western exposure. For those of you who never noticed the reflections in their current LCD's, my apologies if I ruined it for you...

I guess my point is why would you even use a glossy screen when high-end matte finishes are available? I can't imagine that the thin piece of glass would make that much difference in the overall PQ or maybe I am missing something here.. I mean.. I think the PQ on my Vizio is outstanding AND no reflection at all. I'm sure there is better, but it proves it can be done. Come on Sammy, make a set for those of us that don't live in a cave! I don't want to see my white cabinets every time someone opens the fridge door! It bugs me! HA!
Anyways- I would love to see both a matte & glossy version of the 81 side-by-side so I could see for myself. I do not have the luxury of a viewing area that could ever be completely dark. Summer time in the Pacific N.W. can get up to16 hours of sunlight a day, so that compounds the problem of my western exposure. For those of you who never noticed the reflections in their current LCD's, my apologies if I ruined it for you...

The problem is Samsung decided to use the matte screen only for the 61 series. So anyone interested in the 52" would have to get the 65 series. This is a non issue if Samsung decided to have an option for both at 52". My problem is not the glossy screen, i can control the amount of light coming in, but, what they should have done is offset the bezel with another surface like plasma does. Most plasmas don't have a glossy bezel.

I guess my point is why would you even use a glossy screen when high-end matte finishes are available? I can't imagine that the thin piece of glass would make that much difference in the overall PQ or maybe I am missing something here.. I mean.. I think the PQ on my Vizio is outstanding AND no reflection at all. I'm sure there is better, but it proves it can be done. Come on Sammy, make a set for those of us that don't live in a cave! I don't want to see my white cabinets every time someone opens the fridge door! It bugs me! HA!
...
Your point is wrong!
PQ has nothing to do with gloss. Gloss effects black level only.
Talking about PQ: your Vizio is 10 bit/10 bit, 92% WCG set or not?
This is way more important!

Nope, but you could go on their website and see.

BB does not list TVs on their website until they are released, however at the actual store they usually have the item available for preorder once it has been announced. I will check at the store tomorrow and report any information.

Hi,

Seems there is an '81' series Samsung LCD selling in HK, but the product specs state that it is using the 'CCFL' backlight. Is this the same '81' series that is going to be sold in the US, or is it an Asian model that still doesn't include the LED backlight?

http://www.samsung.com/he/products/tvplasmadisplay/lcd_tv/la46n81b.asp?page=Specifications

Actually, from the Samsung website, there appears to be 4 tiers of '81' series models in Hong Kong, with the '81N' being the top of the line.

Hi,

Seems there is an '81' series Samsung LCD selling in HK, but the product specs state that it is using the 'CCFL' backlight. Is this the same '81' series that is going to be sold in the US, or is it an Asian model that still doesn't include the LED backlight?

http://www.samsung.com/he/products/tvplasmadisplay/lcd_tv/la46n81b.asp?page=Specifications

Actually, from the Samsung website, there appears to be 4 tiers of '81' series models in Hong Kong, with the '81N' being the top of the line.
The 81 in the US is not the same as 81s in other parts of the world.

The 81 in the US is not the same as 81s in other parts of the world.

thanks.

Any idea why this model costs twice 1/3 more than the regular 1920x1080 model? I figured it was for the LED backlight, since it touts the a higher contrast ratio.

Can anyone comment on how GLARE on the 65F compares to GLARE on a plasma?

Can anyone comment on how GLARE on the 65F compares to GLARE on a plasma?

I found it to be about the same, but I don't have any facts/figures to back that up.

http://www.e-gear.com/story/story.bsp?sid=69544&var=story
Samsung Electronics is earmarking the fourth quarter of 2007 for the debut of the flagship of its new 81 Series of limited-distribution LCD TVs – the 70-inch 1080p Model LN-T7081F.

According to Jonas Tanenbaum, vice president of marketing for flat panel TV in the company’s Visual Display Product Group, the set, whose price is yet to be determined, is the world’s largest LCD HDTV using LED backlighting technology, and is already being sold in the Korean domestic market.

Tanenbaum says the set -- along with three models that will ship in August and that comprise the balance of the 81 Series line in 40-, 46-, 52- and 57-inch screen sizes ranging from $2,999 to $6,999 in estimated selling price -- carries a dynamic contrast ratio spec of 100,000:1 by virtue of the LED backlighting, which replaces CCFL (cold cathode fluorescent lamp) technology, bettering the black-level performance of traditional LCD TVs and producing black levels approaching those of plasma technology.

A performance feature of the LED aspect of the sets, called Local Dimming, automatically adjusts the image in 64 segmented zones across the screen depending on the brightness level of the content in each zone, he explains. Further, the sets’ Super Patterned Vertical Alignment (SSPVA) panel provides 178-degree viewing angles from horizontal, vertical and diagonal axes.

http://www.e-gear.com/story/story.bsp?sid=69544&var=story

So what they're saying is buy a 57" LED set for $7K and you will get blacks that approach a $2200 Panny plasma. :D

The 71 series is still 8 bit:

Specifications
81 Series LCD

Display 40-inch / 46-inch / 52-inch / 57-inch
Resolution 1080p
Features · Wide Color Gamut LED backlight unit
Local Dimming technology
10 bit processing
Wide color enhancer
Auto Motion PlusLED
Built-in digital tuner (ATSC/Clear QAM)·
Fast 8ms response time
Picture-in-Picture
Super clear panel
Contrast Ratio 100,000:1
Audio · Premium Audio with dedicated low-range speakers· 10 Wx2 Watts per channel· SRS TruSurround XT™· “Hidden” side speakers
A/V Connection · 3 HDMI — High Definition Multimedia· Interface version 1.3 (2 rear/1 side)· 2 Component video inputs· 2 S-video inputs (1 side/1 rear)· Side and Rear A/V inputs· PC input· USB 2.0· Swivel stand· HDMI - CEC
Estimated Selling Price 40-inch: $2,99946-inch: $3,99952-inch: $4,99957-inch: $6,999
Availability August 2007

71 Series LCD

Display 40-inch / 46-inch / 52-inch
Resolution 1080p
Features · Auto Motion Plus120Hz
Built-in digital tuner (ATSC/Clear QAM)
Fast 8ms response time
Wide color enhancer
178º(H)/178º(V) viewing angle
Super clear panel
Swivel stand
Contrast Ratio 25,000:1
Audio · Premium Audio with dedicated low-range speakers· 10 Wx2 Watts per channel· SRS TruSurround XT™· “Hidden” side speakers
A/V Connection · 3 HDMI — High Definition Multimedia· Interface version 1.3 (2 rear/1 side)· 2 Component video inputs· 2 S-video inputs (1 side/1 rear)· Side and Rear A/V inputs· PC input· USB 2.0· HDMI - CEC
Estimated Selling Price 40-inch: $2,69946-inch: $3,39952-inch: $4,399

The 71 series is still 8 bit:


Where does it say that? Both models feature 2000:1 measured 8G 10bit lcd panels.

So what they're saying is buy a 57" LED set for $7K and you will get blacks that approach a $2200 Panny plasma.

Maybe he has confused 81 series with 65 series. I have seen a pre-production 81 series side by side with Samsung plasma in a Samsung training event. 81 series completely smoked that plasma.

Where does it say that? Both models feature 2000:1 measured 8G 10bit lcd panels.



Maybe he has confused 81 series with 65 series. I have seen a pre-production 81 series side by side with Samsung plasma in a Samsung training event. 81 series completely smoked that plasma.

Show me anything that states the 71 series is 10 bit....i'll wait.

"Meanwhile the 81 series has an even wider array of mouthwatering gadgets. (comparing to the 71 series), These include an LED backlight, giving a contrast ratio of 100,000:1, and offering 10 bit processing."

You also said the 81 series smoked the Sammy plasma...well, i said Panny plasma, have you compared an 81 series next to a Panny plasma?

Show me anything that states the 71 series is 10 bit....i'll wait.
You also said the 81 series smoked the Sammy plasma...well, i said Panny plasma, have you compared an 81 series next to a Panny plasma?

You'll find out soon enough. Both 81 and 71 series feature the same lcd panel. Difference comes from led backlighting. Not only you get much greater contrast, colors are also dead accurate. I haven't compared Panny plasma next to 81 series. However those plasmas are pretty close in terms of performance. New Samsung plasmas have improved substantially over previous models...

if the 71 series has a 25:000:1 dynamic ratio, then it is higher than the Sony XBR4, i wonder, if they are using the same PVA panel from the factory, then i would ahve presumed that everything would be the same in response time and contrast, so i wonder what they did to boost that.

if the 71 series has a 25:000:1 dynamic ratio, then it is higher than the Sony XBR4, i wonder, if they are using the same PVA panel from the factory, then i would ahve presumed that everything would be the same in response time and contrast, so i wonder what they did to boost that.

Sony and Samsung panels come from the same 8G factory, not from the same manufacturing lines. Both XBR4 and 71 series have 2000-2500:1 static contrast. Neither will beat 8G, which has 6000:1 static contrast(768p models). On that typical static contrast test 46" pre-production 81 series scored contrast of 40000:1. So official numbers are a bit screwed, but actual performance is still better than anything else before(even rp-crt).

Sony and Samsung panels come from the same 8G factory, not from the same manufacturing lines.


You seem to imply by this that Sony and Samsung panels are not identical as they are rolling from different lines=>differing in technology in some ways. This is hard to believe.


Both XBR4 and 71 series have 2000-2500:1 static contrast. Neither will beat 8G, which has 6000:1 static contrast(768p models). On that typical static contrast test 46" pre-production 81 series scored contrast of 40000:1. So official numbers are a bit screwed, but actual performance is still better than anything else before(even rp-crt).

The 40 000:1 ratio is beyond imagination :D. If that would 'only' be in the range of 10 000:1 in production models I am ready to forget about local dimming.

By the way, they say that local dimming is implemented by controlling 64 segemented zones in the display. This sounds rather small number so I wonder how it will look in practice. Perhaps practically local dimming will be set to OFF position and one will have to enjoy the 1:10 000 static CR :D.

You seem to imply by this that Sony and Samsung panels are not identical as they are rolling from different lines=>differing in technology in some ways. This is hard to believe. :D.
Same plant Yes, and it was about two years ago they jointly signed a patent sharing agreement on over 5,000 patents excluding DNie for Samsung and I believe Sony excluded DRC - considering they both have somewhat of a partnership all that sharing should lead to some refinements that can be very similar regardless of what they each call certain features. I'll reserve judgement on the 81 until it's debut and it gets beyond the normal 1-2 week honeymoon on this forum where there isn't much that survives beyond that on this forum - the Qualia 006 is one of the rare birds that did but rarely seen any other panel survive the incessant nitpicking of this forum.

Cannot believe the level of attacks recently here on the 81 from members that demonstrate no expertise in the technology themselves to make that judgement. Gives us a break and the panel it's time in the spotlight but for now it exists nowhere to pass judement on - BTW this is not directed at you IRKUCK just the trend of trashing without a single panel to pass such judgement by others and ZERO other competition - competition is what breeds advances and at least Samsung is the Pioneer in this territory stepping up to the plate - the Qualia and it's family of SXRD's have evolved and improved over time the past two years and had their own problems that have been tweaked. I vote we wait and see what this thing can do - I'm confident Samsung has ZERO interest in losing money as they just reported a 9% net profit in flat panels and the largest component supplier in the Apple IPHONE is Samsung - they aim to dominate and make money not do it on the cheap. :)

You seem to imply by this that Sony and Samsung panels are not identical as they are rolling from different lines=>differing in technology in some ways. This is hard to believe.

Sony and Samsung panels aren't identical. I don't know if this info is available on the net, but the info is public.


The 40 000:1 ratio is beyond imagination :D. If that would 'only' be in the range of 10 000:1 in production models I am ready to forget about local dimming.

By the way, they say that local dimming is implemented by controlling 64 segemented zones in the display. This sounds rather small number so I wonder how it will look in practice. Perhaps practically local dimming will be set to OFF position and one will have to enjoy the 1:10 000 static CR :D.

40000:1 number is with local dimming. If you turn the local dimming off, 81 series becomes a wide color & color accurate 71 series(2000:1 contrast). I don't know why anyone would want to do that. Even 64 zones are enough to trick your eyes ;)

I have seen a pre-production 81 series side by side with Samsung plasma in a Samsung training event. 81 series completely smoked that plasma.
go81, when did you see them and could you please share your impressions of what you saw?

go81, when did you see them and could you please share your impressions of what you saw?

About a month ago, but now I'm allowed to speak about the set because of recent public showing. I saw only a few movie trailers playing from a bluray disc. Colors were well saturated and natural, screen was uniform because this set doesn't use normal backlighting and motion was plasma-like. The wow factor did come from the fact that this set could display torch mode whites next to inky blacks. There could have been some picture artifacts, but at least with the shown material I couldn't see any.

In short this set is plasma and lcd combined without any cons. A set that a person just could watch and be happy with for the next 5-10 years. There will be small improvements in the following years(more dimming zones, sequential color), but 81 series is pretty much a maxed out lcd.

What is US' 81-series called in Europe? Is it known? Any educated guesses?

More or less confirmed that the US 71-series or 81-series goes under the name F86 is Europe, more exact LE-xxF86BD.

MSRP is expected to 2600 Euro for a 40"

See IFA 2007 website preview (translated from German here) Click on preview pictures and step forward until Sammy LCD reaches you...
http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.freenet.de%2Ffreenet%2Fcomputer _und_technik%2Faudio_video_foto%2Fifa_2007%2Fifa_preview%2Fi ndex.html&langpair=de%7Cen&hl=en&ie=UTF8

Colors were well saturated and natural, screen was uniform because this set doesn't use normal backlighting and motion was plasma-like. The wow factor did come from the fact that this set could display torch mode whites next to inky blacks. There could have been some picture artifacts, but at least with the shown material I couldn't see any.
Sounds great. Would you say contrast is better, same or worse than CRT? How about motion compared to CRT? I'm just trying to calibrate your experience with a reference point. Other than color, which I'm confident will be more than adequate, these are the aspects of PQ I'm interested about the most. Thanks.

Sounds great. Would you say contrast is better, same or worse than CRT? How about motion compared to CRT? I'm just trying to calibrate your experience with a reference point. Other than color, which I'm confident will be more than adequate, these are the aspects of PQ I'm interested about the most. Thanks.

It can hold the black level better than a direct view crt and can go a lot brighter, so I would say that contrast is better. With the shown material motion looked equal to plasma. Video games show motion handling differences much better.

The 71 series is still 8 bit:

71 Series LCD

Display 40-inch / 46-inch / 52-inch
Resolution 1080p
Features · Auto Motion Plus120Hz
Built-in digital tuner (ATSC/Clear QAM)
Fast 8ms response time
Wide color enhancer
178º(H)/178º(V) viewing angle
Super clear panel
Swivel stand
Contrast Ratio 25,000:1
Audio · Premium Audio with dedicated low-range speakers· 10 Wx2 Watts per channel· SRS TruSurround XT™· “Hidden” side speakers
A/V Connection · 3 HDMI — High Definition Multimedia· Interface version 1.3 (2 rear/1 side)· 2 Component video inputs· 2 S-video inputs (1 side/1 rear)· Side and Rear A/V inputs· PC input· USB 2.0· HDMI - CEC
Estimated Selling Price 40-inch: $2,69946-inch: $3,39952-inch: $4,399

Any physical specs? I need something to fit in an old ent center at a max of 38.5"

I was hoping the 40" 81 series would but unfortunately, it won't. Now to see if the 71 series is an option.

Thanks

Thanks for all the info

Anyone have any good info on what the street prices for the 71/81 will be?

Show me anything that states the 71 series is 10 bit....i'll wait.
?

10 bit processing has been implemented in all 2007 xx61 and xx65 models. Sony new W3000s and XBR4&5s have 10 bit processing and 10 bit panel. AFAIK this is not yet 8 gen panels.

so yea, what will the price of the 71/81 be on amazon, and when will they be listed for pre-order or ready to ship. i wannnnnnnt

I would assume the price for 4671 would be something like 600 lower than the MSRP on amazon. And of course, the lower the better since everybody wants one!

These drawings illustrate the 'resolution' of Samsung's local dimming. The first is 60 clusters on a 16:9 screen. The second is with anamorphic widescreen imposed (gray). There's not much 'resolution' IMO. Certainly this is a far cry from Briteside's technology.

http://i12.tinypic.com/4voxvko.jpg

http://i16.tinypic.com/4u0ibeb.jpg

Just as flourescent tubes gave rise to banding problems, we may have to coin a new word, 'polka-dotting', to describe artifacts created by insufficient LED backlight resolution.

Still, it may work well, you cannot tell until you see it or a good pic.
I doubt if Samsung would spend all this money if it was a complete DUD.
Limited distribution will mean discriminating buyers, too.

would be nice to had 144 clusters (16x9=144)

The 71 series is still 8 bit:
81 Series LCD
10 bit processing
Contrast Ratio 100,000:1

71 Series LCD

Contrast Ratio 25,000:1
I assume you deduce this from the lack of mention of higher bit processing in the specs. However, last years 5296 and the 61,65 series have it, at least the panels display 10 bit as I understand, although not in a wider color space. These panels have absolutely no color contouring whatsoever IMO.

What really stands out though, to be positive about this clunky set :D , is the dynamic contrast, which given the usual scaling implies 5000:1 native. That is a real breakthrough number, and if Sammy has done it, congrats to them for pushing the engineering forward. Now how about giving us a choice of matte or glossy, and please give us some style, e.g. the beautifully designed 61 pair (not really a series is it).

These drawings illustrate the 'resolution' of Samsung's local dimming. The first is 60 clusters on a 16:9 screen. The second is with anamorphic widescreen imposed (gray). There's not much 'resolution' IMO. Certainly this is a far cry from Briteside's technology.

http://i12.tinypic.com/4voxvko.jpg

http://i16.tinypic.com/4u0ibeb.jpg

Just as flourescent tubes gave rise to banding problems, we may have to coin a new word, 'polka-dotting', to describe artifacts created by insufficient LED backlight resolution.

I think it's undeniable that the number of elements used will be the defining difference in future sets, improving contrast and reducing whatever anomalies come with bigger areas, but I also think that even with this number the response will be significantly better than what we currently see with CCFLs.

I assume you deduce this from the lack of mention of higher bit processing in the specs. However, last years 5296 and the 61,65 series have it, at least the panels display 10 bit as I understand, although not in a wider color space. These panels have absolutely no color contouring whatsoever IMO.


None of the models you’ve mentioned have 10 bit panel, only 10 bit processing and 8 bit panel.
8 bit panel can not display 10 bit picture.

I seriously doubt that the clusters are single light points. Probably much more likely each spot is called a "cluster" because it represents multiple light sources in an area of the screen. The artifacts will probably be more on the borders of adjacent light cluster areas.

... screen was uniform because this set doesn't use normal backlighting ... There will be small improvements in the following years(more dimming zones, sequential color), but 81 series is pretty much a maxed out lcd.I would doubt that LED backlighting would make the screen more uniform than CCFL in a defect-free panel, the diffusers work pretty well. What it can do with local dimming is diminish clouding, flashlighting which is generally noticed in dark areas of the screen, i.e. DEFECT nonuniformities, since you are really using the backlight itself to darken an area and not relying on defective "shutters" in the LCD matrix.

In fact now that I think about it, stuck pixels would also be "dimmed" if they fall in a dark area, so it helps reduce the visibility of these as well. Cool stuff.

Right, this is a first step, with more densely packed custers to follow. The 144 number sounds like a logical next step. It's going to be great witnessing this evolution in displays, and again kudos for Samsung for pushing this forward, as westa mentions. Yea, I don't like the style :p :p .

I seriously doubt that the clusters are single light points. Probably much more likely each spot is called a "cluster" because it represents multiple light sources in an area of the screen. The artifacts will probably be more on the borders of adjacent light cluster areas.

You are right. 81 series has thousands of rgb led elements which are grouped to clusters because of led driving costs. There will be no polka-dotting...

http://www.blogsmithmedia.com/www.engadget.com/media/2007/07/img_1477.jpg

None of the models you’ve mentioned have 10 bit panel, only 10 bit processing and 8 bit panel.
8 bit panel can not display 10 bit picture.Are you implying that its just an oversampling algorithm and has no bearing on the lack of false contouring I have seen in recent Sammy panels?

You are right. 81 series has thousands of rgb led elements which are grouped to clusters because of led driving costs. There will be no polka-dotting... So your point is that the grouping is electrical and not spatial, rgb LED's are uniformly distributed?

Are you implying that its just an oversampling algorithm and has no bearing on the lack of false contouring I have seen in recent Sammy panels?

Correct, but this is going to change next week as Sony will start selling new W/XBRs 10bit/10bit models. Its called Deep Color. As Sammy and Sony are sharing LCD production we may expect to see 10 bit panels from Sammy any time now.

So your point is that the grouping is electrical and not spatial, rgb LED's are uniformly distributed?

I think this is the case because indeed it would cause severe uniformity issues if not.

Led drivers usually drive quite a bunch of LEDs per port. Usually 8+ (most use 30-48Volts and don't use resistors but rather limit current via the switching algorithm to increase efficiency, but you want the total forward voltage drop from a LED Leg to be close enough so that you can have a balanced switching pattern) and common drivers are 1-16 Ports, with integrated dimming switchers.

I would be surprised that they didn't use many LEDs rather than expensive, exotic powerful LEDs (The term cluster also kinda says that also). if you use many of them, I don't know why you wouldn't space them out evenly.

dont know if this has been posted ? but if you look about half way into the video you will see the new led tvs running next to the old versions

video of the new led lcds working next to the old versions look black to me and better then the old plus i can not see any problems with the light what do you think

http://www.cinenow.com/uk/play-video-726.html

These drawings illustrate the 'resolution' of Samsung's local dimming. The first is 60 clusters on a 16:9 screen. The second is with anamorphic widescreen imposed (gray). There's not much 'resolution' IMO. Certainly this is a far cry from Briteside's technology.

http://i12.tinypic.com/4voxvko.jpg

http://i16.tinypic.com/4u0ibeb.jpg

Just as flourescent tubes gave rise to banding problems, we may have to coin a new word, 'polka-dotting', to describe artifacts created by insufficient LED backlight resolution.

Its really not like this more like square matrices of LED driver units (4x4 for example). If you knew how many units are in a cluster the you could construct an illustration from that. Each cluster of units dims together so it would be helpful to draw squares around each cluster.

Thanks guys, on the even spacing I would assume that rgb ARE spatially clustered into 1 backlight pixel but that rgb clusters are not superclustered (e.g. galaxies :D ) spatially.

Yea, I guess we have to specify 10/10 etc. now.

dont know if this has been posted ? but if you look about half way into the video you will see the new led tvs running next to the old versions

video of the new led lcds working next to the old versions look black to me and better then the old plus i can not see any problems with the light what do you think

http://www.cinenow.com/uk/play-video-726.htmlTha is an interesting video clip. I can see a lot of matte finish LCD's there. In fact, the local dimming TV seems to be matte, and it is in the form of the 61 series, looks great. I wonder if since this CES Samsung has changed their direction more toward gloss, they did announce the 5261 then but canceled it. I wonder if they actually made a few 5261's for the show and if one could get one?

dont know if this has been posted ? but if you look about half way into the video you will see the new led tvs running next to the old versions

video of the new led lcds working next to the old versions look black to me and better then the old plus i can not see any problems with the light what do you think

http://www.cinenow.com/uk/play-video-726.html

"Seeing is believing". As you can see, LED LCD is the first flat panel that can do full black screen. Thank god that 81 series has super clear panel. Matte panel makes even a led lcd look more dull&flat.

dont know if this has been posted ? but if you look about half way into the video you will see the new led tvs running next to the old versions

video of the new led lcds working next to the old versions look black to me and better then the old plus i can not see any problems with the light what do you think

http://www.cinenow.com/uk/play-video-726.html

Only thing of worthy note from the video is the LED BLU display tended to washout the CCD of the camera versus the unit next to it. The color of the wine in the glass for example got washed out on the LED BLU. You can see the color of the wine again when the image fades. It is an indication that the colors are coming through with much more light intensity than the unit being compared.

In terms of the blacks not going to go there. There are too many variables to draw any useful conclusion.

Does anyone know the width of this 70" TV (or the one sold in Korea since that one is out already)?

I fear many of us are just wasting our time in this thread at this point, because I get the feeling this entire line is going to be available in incredibly low quantities for several months (once it finally DOES release). Anyone have any experience with Samsung product launches in the past? I recall being on 1 and 2 month waits for my old XBR910 and WE610 at the local CC and BB back when they first came out, and the popularity of this thread coupled with the fact it is already being described as limited availability would suggest it's going to be an absolute bear to get a hold of (doubly so at local retailers). I'm certainly not going to wait 5 or 6 months to walk into a store and buy one of these, I'll just wait for the '08 models (most likely from Sharp or Sony).

Sony and Samsung panels aren't identical. I don't know if this info is available on the net, but the info is public.


Sorry for pressing this but: I know the electronics is different.

Do you mean the glass is also different???


40000:1 number is with local dimming. If you turn the local dimming off, 81 series becomes a wide color & color accurate 71 series(2000:1 contrast). I don't know why anyone would want to do that. Even 64 zones are enough to trick your eyes ;)

But you said that typical CR is much higher than the 2000:1 so even with the dimming off, enough headroom for black levels is there.

Regarding the 64 dimming zones this is my last worry if there are no artefacts visible under critical viewing conditions.

Related problem is: what is the level of USER control over dimming? On/off, dimming gradation, block dimming control?

I fear many of us are just wasting our time in this thread at this point, because I get the feeling this entire line is going to be available in incredibly low quantities for several months (once it finally DOES release). Anyone have any experience with Samsung product launches in the past? I recall being on 1 and 2 month waits for my old XBR910 and WE610 at the local CC and BB back when they first came out, and the popularity of this thread coupled with the fact it is already being described as limited availability would suggest it's going to be an absolute bear to get a hold of (doubly so at local retailers). I'm certainly not going to wait 5 or 6 months to walk into a store and buy one of these, I'll just wait for the '08 models (most likely from Sharp or Sony).


yes i hope this is not the case, as i am selling my old crt 32in HD set when these become available for purchase, i would like to be able to pick one up. I am going for the 40in 81series, (thats as big as my space will allow anyways).

im hoping that by labor day we should be able to get em

Its really not like this more like square matrices of LED driver units (4x4 for example). If you knew how many units are in a cluster the you could construct an illustration from that. Each cluster of units dims together so it would be helpful to draw squares around each cluster.
You and go81 are correct since you are among very few people on this thread who understand this technology. But nice try, jksgvb. :) Your picture should have shown ~65 sectors/squares with each sector containing ~8x8 RGB LEDs (based on Samsung's own paper describing the technology). That's more or less how 81 Series BLU looks like.

dont know if this has been posted ? but if you look about half way into the video you will see the new led tvs running next to the old versions

video of the new led lcds working next to the old versions look black to me and better then the old plus i can not see any problems with the light what do you think

http://www.cinenow.com/uk/play-video-726.html
Thanks for finding and posting this. What's interesting is that 120Hz and LED scanning are shown on separate sets as two alternative methods for fixing motion blur. Yet, it's been reported that 81 Series will have both these technologies included in all sets. I guess that's a good thing. ;)

Earlier in the thread there are mentions to about 2160 LEDs, so combined with the 64 "areas" (also a number mentioned earlier in the thread), then that gives you about 32 LEDs per area. Given the surface area of a 46", and 2160 LEDs, that gives each LED about a 1/2 square inch to light up, about 900 pixels per LED. Each area of 32 LEDs would be about 14 square inches, or about 4x4 inches in size.

Now the question is how those areas are driven? Is the whole area set to a particular fixed level, so there could be some degree of edge noticable between two differently lit areas? or does an area interpolate each LED's level between the 4 corners, which would eliminate "edge" issues against adjacent areas? It's probably the former, as that would be easier to implement, but I'm hoping they do something like the latter.

And what do they do with it? Current LCDs with a regular backlight can show 95%+ of the light levels correctly, it's only the bottom 4-5 levels out of 256 that fail to get darker than the particular panel's "black" (gray). So these cool new technologies for gaining really huge contrast ratios should only have any effect on getting the proper levels of black for those bottom few light levels, while leaving the top 95% of levels alone. But it sounds like perhaps they're not doing that, they're scaling everything down a bit and making it too dark, according to reports of black crush going on with these newer panels with much better contrast ratios. I'm hoping there's enough settings available to be able to properly calibrate the light levels so black crush doesn't happen, but we still get the nice new blacks :)

someone check my math PLEASE (cause i probably made a mistake on the back of this napkin), but if the zones are evenly distributed we are looking at a cluster being a 2.5" x 4.4" area, or 133 pixels x 237 pixels. To me, that seems like a fairly large area. Anyone else? Maybe they are smaller zones in the middle and larger around the edges, or some other sort of shape (i assumed they followed the 16:9 ratio).

EDIT: This is based on 64 clusters

You and go81 are correct since you are among very few people on this thread who understand this technology. But nice try, jksgvb. :) Your picture should have shown ~65 sectors/squares with each sector containing ~8x8 RGB LEDs (based on Samsung's own paper describing the technology). That's more or less how 81 Series BLU looks like.

I remember reading the paper, but the paper doesn't necessarily describe what Samsung has for sale. :) My drawings were based on the various news reports that say 60 to 70 clusters. I'm thinking that one red, one green, and one blue LED = one cluster. I could be wrong about that. Regardless, the drawings show the local dimming resolution which is too crude, IMO, to be much worth. My perception of how local dimming should look matches the photo you posted on the first page of this thread:

http://i13.tinypic.com/52qadc6.jpg

Clearly, this backlight resolution is much much higher than 60 to 70 clusters.

You and go81 are correct since you are among very few people on this thread who understand this technology. But nice try, jksgvb. :) Your picture should have shown ~65 sectors/squares with each sector containing ~8x8 RGB LEDs (based on Samsung's own paper describing the technology). That's more or less how 81 Series BLU looks like.
And your background and credentials include what? If your going to present yourself as an authority and pass judgement you could have something other than a VOID member profile.

Could you provide us some qualifications to even interpret the White Papers, up to this point it only tells us you know how to read. Because one can read a White Paper don't mean Jack - give us something that lets us know you know what your talking about - we know you can read but do you truly understand? I suppose you know better than the source?;)

Could you provide us some qualifications to even interpret the White Papers, up to this point it only tells us you know how to read. Because one can read a White Paper don't mean Jack - give us something that lets us know you know what your talking about - we know you can read but do you truly understand?
Knowing how to read and finding relevant info is not enough? Wow! Do I really need extra qualifications to absorb this info "better"? Are there some subliminal messages included in these documents that only "experts" like you are capable of understanding? This is not exactly rocket science, you know. Are you upset that other people might be more familiar with some technology than you? Who are you exactly and why are you questioning my ability to understand known info? I suggest you find one thing I was wrong about or one thing I "made up" in this thread or stop complaining all the time. Start adding something of substance to this thread or stop interrupting.

It seems to me the 81 line will be sold to the average consumer based on the higher picture quality and to a lesser extent price when compared to Sony XBRs. All the talk on sectors and clusters while interesting is going to have little impact to the people viewing these sets in the stores.

There is an article published in page 22 of Popular Science Magazine, August 2007 about digital TVs, in their term, "that finally produce the deep blacks that tube sets were famous for" and Samsung 81 series is among the three TVs mentioned. Following is the related part:

"SAMSUNG LED-BACKLIT LCD TVs:
This technology produces inky blacks by dividing the screen into 64 sections lit by independently controlled light-emitting diodes. In our tests of a prototype model, the set shutdown LEDs behind blacks features, like Batman's cape, but pumped them up behind highlights, creating greater contrast. The technology will debut in late August..."

The magazine also shows a photo taken from Underworld: Evolution movie displayed on a regular LCD and Samsung 81. Photo shot taken from Samsung 81 looks very good (great blacks and brightness) compared to the regular LCD one...

Other two digital TVs mentioned were Piooner's Kuro Plasma Panels and Epson Home Cinema 1080 LCD projectors...

Ah, now the cat is out of the bag ...

Well if people would just understand that studdad's post is very reasonable, there would be no debate, but some are just in denial.

Whether I prefer gloss or plasma has nothing to do with my point. The Samsung 81 series LCD(which is the title of this thread) is glossy and we just have to accept it no matter what I or you prefer. Maybe they'll come out with a matte model as well next year, but until then there is no choice. I'd like to complain that there isn't a larger screen than a 57" and the fact that the 81's aren't going to be distributed to big box type stores but what's the point of complaining about if it doesn't change anything?

I remember reading the paper, but the paper doesn't necessarily describe what Samsung has for sale. :)
It was presented at ASID in Oct 06. It was a general description of Samsung's local dimming algorithm and it's consistent with what was announced recently (I'm referring here to blocks/clusters connection) Here's an excerpt:
We implemented the proposed algorithm on a FPGA chip and developed a 32inch LED LCD-TV whose backlight is controlled by the FPGA chip. 2160 RGB LED elements are mounted under a Samsung TFT-LCD with a 1366×768 resolution and grouped into M×N blocks on the backlight. The proposed algorithm is compatible to various block number. In our test, 8×8 blocks are designed. Some thresholds and parameters used in tests are listed in Table 1.

Test patterns including static images, moving sequences and cable TV signals were tested on this TV set. Figure 6 illustrates six of the test patterns. In each test pattern, two test points are measured to evaluate the contrast, one point in bright region and another one in dark region, shown as the gray dots in Figure 6. Figure 7 shows the contrasts of the six test patterns in Figure 6, where the broken curve is result of no local dimming and the real line is the local dimming result. The numbers 1~6 of the x-axis in Figure 7 correspond to the six test patterns of Figure 6 in turn. Test results show that the contrast can be greatly improved by the proposed local dimming algorithm compared with unchangeable backlight. The contrast of figure 6(a) is even about 20000:1 because on the deep darkness in black region. We also tested many rigorous videos which have fast motion and violent spatial and temporal brightness change. No obvious visual artifacts were observed in the proposed system.

Conclusion:
This paper discussed the backlight dimming technique on LCD-TV, analyzed the potential problems in local dimming system, and proposed a skillful local dimming algorithm which can achieve high static contrast more than 10000:1 and avoid annoying visual artifacts even when displaying rigorous video sequence. An additional effect of the local dimming system is the reduction of power consumption. Local dimming method can also be implemented on CCFL backlight. But LED lights are much more powerful in local dimming system than traditional CCFL backlight, because the luminous intensity of LED can be
changed in very short time and can be controlled linearly from full black to peak brightness by changing PWM period. Moreover, LED elements can be grouped into blocks very easily.
Obviously, the number of LEDs and block sizes might be different for 81 Series and I strongly suspect these numbers will also vary for different sizes, but the main idea that's constant here is that the screen is divided into blocks (clusters) with each block containing MxN RGB LED matrix so your drawing should have been divided into ~65 sectors (not dots) with each containing MxN matrix of dots (I recall someone saying 4x4). It would be really cool if you could make that drawing. :)

My drawings were based on the various news reports that say 60 to 70 clusters. I'm thinking that one red, one green, and one blue LED = one cluster. I could be wrong about that.
As I said above, I think it's more like 4x4 (or 5x4,6x4,7x5 or 8x5, who knows) RGB LEDs in one cluster.

Regardless, the drawings show the local dimming resolution which is too crude, IMO, to be much worth.
I agree.

My perception of how local dimming should look matches the photo you posted on the first page of this thread:
http://i13.tinypic.com/52qadc6.jpg
Clearly, this backlight resolution is much much higher than 60 to 70 clusters.
I'm not sure if BLU in 81s will look a whole lot different than the photo but we've not seen yet a "naked" BLU on 81s so it's impossible to compare the two. The photo I posted was, if I recall correctly, from that Planar LCD that happened to look exactly like the Brightside set except with logo switched to "Planar". I strongly suspect this was indeed a Brightside set and its BLU looked the way it looked probably because all LEDs were individually modulated. 81 series sets modulate blocks/clusters of LEDs.

Its really not like this more like square matrices of LED driver units (4x4 for example). If you knew how many units are in a cluster the you could construct an illustration from that. Each cluster of units dims together so it would be helpful to draw squares around each cluster.

This is true, BUT remember, even if the lights are arrange in a square, the light will emminate out in a round shape, and will then also be spread by the layer between the screen and the lights.

I think there could be some funky looking letterboxing. What I beleive it will do it, at the inside edge of the black bar, th pixels will be in closed position, and at the outside edge, theylle be in a grey position, to make them appear even in shade. But this means more light than has to be is being allowed out. This could all be avoided by a larger array.

here is a comparison shot of a Briteside Backlight, and a simulated Samsung one, displaying the same image.

here is a comparison shot of a Briteside Backlight, and a simulated Samsung one, displaying the same image.
That's exactly what I'm imagining how 81 series backlight might look like next to Brightside one.

When Brightside was independantly owned, weren't they selling displays in the multi-tens of thousands of dollars range? Like....50,000?

When Brightside was independantly owned, weren't they selling displays in the multi-tens of thousands of dollars range? Like....50,000?Yes.

In case anyone missed this here's still the best article on BrightSide technology on the net (make sure to also read the comments as even more is explained):
http://www.bit-tech.net/hardware/2005/10/04/brightside_hdr_edr/1

In my job as a 3d animator, I use HDR images all the time. Not that you can actually view the higher dynamic range on current monitors, but they are used as skymaps, essentially spherical backdrops. What HDR buys you is the ability to have a skymap of an outdoor scene with close to real world lighting built in. This background then generates the lighting in your scene. Where a typical 24 bit image simply doesn't contain the information to generate the full range of an outdoor scene (from shadows, to ambient lighting, to direct sunlight) an HDR image does.
So when rendered, the scene looks extremely realistic.
However, these HDR images are created by compositing multiple versions of the of the same scene shot at differing exposures, to "encode" this huge dynamic range. The sun is thousands of times brighter than the light bouncing off of a building, and a standard image simply wont portray this.
The deal is, these HDR files are MASSIVE.
So I guess my question is, what is achieved by having a display that could literally cause you to squint in pain , if there is no media that is anywhere near capable of storing that amount of information.
(And would we really want outdoor scenes to cause us to need sunglasses?)

Maybe this drawing will give us a better idea of what 8x8 backlight resolution would look like on a 16:9 screen:

http://i15.tinypic.com/6c3cr35.jpg


BTW, thanks for your posts vtms. I'm always interested in your thoughts on LED backlighting and OLED technology.

I can't help but wonder about contrast ratio specs with local dimming technology or the latest generation of flourescent backlighting that also vary backlight intensity. With a CRT, or plasma, or fixed-intensity-backlight LCD, or OLED contrast ratio is fairly straight forward because the display can produce the given CR spec at any time in any area of the screen. However, this isn't the case with variable-intensity backlight technology as it's currently implemented . Is it fair to compare CR ratio with something like this Samsung or one of the CCFL backlit displays that vary intensity frame-by-frame when they can't actually deliver that CR with a typical video input? It seems to me that we're not comparing apples to apples at all.

...or am I still not getting how local dimming works? :)

Maybe this drawing will give us a better idea of what 8x8 backlight resolution would look like on a 16:9 screen:
http://i15.tinypic.com/6c3cr35.jpg
Thanks jksgvb, I think that's a very good representation of 64 individually modulated clusters. It's a nice illustration of an idea behind Samsung's implementation while necrolop's simulated backlight gives a good idea of how your drawing might translate to real life (with all the light from each cluster blended in). Great job, guys. :)

BTW, thanks for your posts vtms. I'm always interested in your thoughts on LED backlighting and OLED technology.
I'm glad to hear that. :) I'm really excited about this technology. Once this dynamic backlight technology matures (in 2nd, 3rd, 4th generation?) until it can display HDR stuff, I'm not sure if OLED will have enough of a competitive edge to survive in this HDTV market. Time will tell.

there is a diffusion layer inbetween the backlight at the screen. so the area between light and dark are not sharp, check my image below, thats a 6x10 array, the image above it is a brightside display, a real image not simulated.

http://a158.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/91/l_512ffffca47d7b83656fee45d2677f05.jpg

AFAIK the panel what Brightside was using had below 1000:1 native contrast. Samsung 81 series panel has 2000:1 native contrast, so it will compensate the lower resolution backlight nicely. As panel contrast doubles, actual contrast doubles also.

However, these HDR images are created by compositing multiple versions of the of the same scene shot at differing exposures, to "encode" this huge dynamic range.

Below is a nice illustration/simulation of what your talking about:
http://www.dolby.com/promo/hdr/experience.html
http://www.dolby.com/images/promo/hdr/bracketed2.jpg
http://www.dolby.com/images/promo/hdr/rentalsign_hdr_simulation2.jpg

I keep waiting for cameras (still and video) that would be able to capture HDR images instantly. I guess that's still in the future. Perhaps folks at RED (http://www.red.com/) might respond to this challenge.
The deal is, these HDR files are MASSIVE.
How massive are they?

So I guess my question is, what is achieved by having a display that could literally cause you to squint in pain , if there is no media that is anywhere near capable of storing that amount of information.
(And would we really want outdoor scenes to cause us to need sunglasses?)
Assuming they are still huge after compression, perhaps they could be stored on HVDs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holographic_Versatile_Disc) .

Well as far as Video HDR, the answer is to have simulate HDR, I beleive briteside used this, though Im sure Samsung wont, since this thing is hardly HDR.

AFAIK the panel what Brightside was using had below 1000:1 native contrast. Samsung 81 series panel has 2000:1 native contrast, so it will compensate the lower resolution backlight nicely. As panel contrast doubles, actual contrast doubles also.
Can you elaborate on what you mean by panel contrast? I'm sure you're not referring here to static contrast.

Can you elaborate on what you mean by panel contrast? I'm sure you're not referring here to static contrast.


He means the LCD panel itself, without a backlight. The samsung will allow more light to pass when in open position, and allow less to leak through when in Off possition, than the panel used by Brightside.

Though I really dont think itl make that much difference, as even the nicest Sonys and current Samsungs, which have the best Static Contrast ratios, have horrid black levels, so that alone wont save it.

I beleive gradients on this set will be great, dark into light will work very well. But area where you have a pure black and a bright color next to another, maye look funky.

The affect of the lower resolution back light will be a floating pure black level. The darkest form of black in the video signal, will be darker or lighter based on the other elements on the frame. This allows for a very high theoretical Dynamic Contrast Ratio, but I think dynamic contrast ratio is basically unimportant, and is used for marketing.

Can you elaborate on what you mean by panel contrast? I'm sure you're not referring here to static contrast.

Contrast as how much light can the actual panel block(pixel based). 81 series panel can block over two times more light while showing a black screen when compared to brightside panel. Backlight "contrast" * panel contrast gives you actual contrast on screen. Let's say that led lcd uses 8 bit signal to control led brightness. This gives you 256 different brightness levels and well beyond 500000:1 theoretical contrast on screen. This is where the 70" F91 contrast rating comes from.

The following measurements have been done with 32" 1000:1 panel. A 32" 2000:1 81 series would score ~40000:1 in test (a) , ~30000:1 in test (b) and so on. Bigger panel equals also more contrast. AFAIK there will be nothing on the consumer market in year 2007 that can beat 81 series in contrast.

http://img247.imageshack.us/img247/8568/untitled123ba5.jpg

Now that I think about it, dynamic contrast is a misnomer.
It should be called dynamic range.
It is not really contrast at all. You cannot see it simultaneously and contiguously.

Now the dynamic dimming works within a frame, so it really does increase static contrast.

I'm goofing around with Photoshop Elements to see how different backlight resolutions might look before diffusing for this Agatha Peak picture:

Agatha Peak:

http://i7.tinypic.com/6cijkpi.jpg

112x63 backlight resolution:

http://i12.tinypic.com/538iq0x.jpg

48x27 backlight resolution:

http://i13.tinypic.com/4xnn50y.jpg

25x14 backlight resolution:

http://i16.tinypic.com/6cfazd5.jpg

...and 12x7 resolution:

http://i15.tinypic.com/5z6g93s.jpg

I'm beginning to see how even the low 12x7 resolution would have value if it's properly diffused...

...but 48x27 (1300 individually modulated LEDs) would be ultimately cool. :cool:

Contrast as how much light can the actual panel block(pixel based). 81 series panel can block over two times more light while showing a black screen when compared to brightside panel.
I see what you and necrolop mean. So to what degree do you think Samsung's advantage in panel contrast (2000:1 vs. 1000:1) balances BrightSide's advantage in backlight resolution (45x31 vs. ~8x8)?

I guess what I'm getting at is the bottom line which is how close do you think 81 series PQ does come to BrightSide's PQ (from, say, 700cd/m² down if that makes sense)?

Backlight "contrast" * panel contrast gives you actual contrast on screen. Let's say that led lcd uses 8 bit signal to control led brightness. This gives you 256 different brightness levels and well beyond 500000:1 theoretical contrast on screen. This is where the 70" F91 contrast rating comes from.
Yes. As I had implied before, I think static contrast ratio for these sets is proportional to their size as less light should bleed to a corner ~70'' away than to a corner ~40'' away which is why the 70-incher has such an amazing contrast ratio. Would you say that is the case? (In general, static CR would also be inversely proportional to the cluster size.)

http://img247.imageshack.us/img247/8568/untitled123ba5.jpg
That graph comparing static contrast ratios pretty much says it all. :D

That graph pretty much says it all. :D

Remember to at least double those numbers for 81 series. The thing is incredible :D