Samsung 81 Series anticipation thread

[taurus2007]

August is coming soon. I can't wait to see one of these things.

I've got a feeling that both panels, 71 & 81, won't be out until late August! :(

[johnnybrulez]

I've got a feeling that both panels, 71 & 81, won't be out until late August! :(

Well be more optimistic! :) I just hope Magnolia sets these TVs in the DARK where they should be once they get them.

[D-Nice]

Why? Whats the problem? He (go81) is providing a lot of good information and there was no trouble until you showed up. Looks like you have an axe to grind but please...not here.
P.S. If go81 is an industry insider he should really declare it in accordance with AVS forum rules. That way we know we are getting information from a reliable source rather than from someone who just read it on the net. ;)if want the history of sampo, search the usernames he's gone by in my previous post.

He was very well mannered in this thread with his current username. However, he went back to his "M O" early this morning in the plasma forum.

I you really like his info, I'd advise you guys to keep a leash on him.

[D-Nice]

Nice to see all this heathy discussion and damn who let in all these Pio Patriots? Thought I was over in the Kuro threads and someone must have baited you guys.:) The same people who let you in. :D

I would consider myself a plasma patriot instead of just Pioneer. But if you want to label a brand name to me....Pioneer/Panasonic.

Enjoy your thread :)

[HD-Gaming]

how would you compare the 40' Samsung 81 series to the 40' Sony XBR4?



both are coming out next week and I am looking to see which one to get

[johnnybrulez]

how would you compare the 40' Samsung 81 series to the 40' Sony XBR4?



both are coming out next week and I am looking to see which one to get

They are?! I thought both were late August. And if contrast in itself (which is way important for gaming and night time viewing) is as great as Samsung claims... then the Sammy will probably be the more impactful picture.

Once again barring some let-down or weird artifacts that'll distract.

[Alex the Great]

I've got a feeling that both panels, 71 & 81, won't be out until late August! :(

can you be more specific, say within a week accuracy :)

[westa6969]

The same people who let you in.

I would consider myself a plasma patriot oinstead of just Pioneer. But if you want to label a brand name to me....Pioneer/Panasonic.

Enjoy your thread :)
Sorry D-Nice I wasn't name calling I was just trying to input some friendly humor - I had no negative intent whatsoever as I have respect for how you try and help many in the Plasma threads.

I was joking and this person seems to have pushed your buttons and your overreacting to what I intended and others as casual conversation and was trying to be friendly and nothing more and hoping to move to a more friendly tone. I have not seen alot of trash talk against the Kuro at all over here most respect what we know of it so far from what I've observed daily.

Welcome and I regret you misinterpreted the comments - I thought I'd added a wink didn't I? Well you have much knowledge in these areas and hope we have room for more than just Kuro shooting for the top. "Better than" is determined by the perspective of the buyer and their individual needs and preferences - no herd mentality on this forum trumps the buyers decision and EYES - why can't an LCD be a top dog also? It's rather nice to have competitive discussions again and we are not all Sampo's or his other AKA's and my profile on theis forum is pretty open and complete - please don't judge the rest of us by his taunts. .:D

[glow11]

Stopped by the Magnolia in the Portland, Oregon Best Buy and inquired about the 71 & 81's coming out. I got a blank look...he then checked his computer and said he saw nothing on the horizon.
Is this how new TV's are released from everyone these days, just Samsung, or do you suppose it has something to do with supply/ship date complications?

[johnnybrulez]

Stopped by the Magnolia in the Portland, Oregon Best Buy and inquired about the 71 & 81's coming out. I got a blank look...he then checked his computer and said he saw nothing on the horizon.
Is this how new TV's are released from everyone these days, just Samsung, or do you suppose it has something to do with supply/ship date complications?

They did the same thing to me a week before the Kuros began to arrive in their stores. So I wouldn't worry about it too much.

[D-Nice]

Sorry D-Nice I wasn't name calling I was just trying to input some friendly humor - I had no negative intent whatsoever as I have respect for how you try and help many in the Plasma threads.

I was joking and this person seems to have pushed your buttons and your overreacting to what I intended and others as casual conversation and was trying to be friendly and nothing more and hoping to move to a more friendly tone. I have not seen alot of trash talk against the Kuro at all over here most respect what we know of it so far from what I've observed daily.

Welcome and I regret you misinterpreted the comments - I thought I'd added a wink didn't I? Well you have much knowledge in these areas and hope we have room for more than just Kuro shooting for the top. "Better than" is determined by the perspective of the buyer and their individual needs and preferences - no herd mentality on this forum trumps the buyers decision and EYES - why can't an LCD a a top dog also? :DNo need to apologize. I think we both misinterpreted each other.

[LaserEdge]

how would you compare the 40' Samsung 81 series to the 40' Sony XBR4?



both are coming out next week and I am looking to see which one to get

Don't know where you got info that the Sammy LN-T4081 is out next week, but that is not the info we have gotten so far. We got at least a month and half until we are going to see the LN-T4081 in high end A/V stores.

Based on your forum ID I would say your a gamer. Both support 1:1 pixel mapping. Beyond pixel mapping motion blur and shadow detail are probably your primary concerns. Shadow detail on the Sammy should be much better. We will not know about motion blur until we get to see them both. I would be making a complete guess about motion blur. Motion blur is a concern for me too.

The 81's still might have a 720p overscanning issue that is in the 65s. This is likely important if you game on consoles.

[LaserEdge]

Stopped by the Magnolia in the Portland, Oregon Best Buy and inquired about the 71 & 81's coming out. I got a blank look...he then checked his computer and said he saw nothing on the horizon.
Is this how new TV's are released from everyone these days, just Samsung, or do you suppose it has something to do with supply/ship date complications?

I have been dealing with the Southcenter Magnolia in WA (about 3 hours drive from Portland). You need to talk to the Sales Manager so he can contact the distributor they use for Samsung in the NW USA region. He will then get the information from the distributor and put it into the stores computer. At that point you can place a preorder. It was not in the Southcenter computer when I first called as well, but it is in there now. :)

[pakotlar]

Eh, I just checked out the new 8g Kuros at Magnolia, and while the picture is the nicest I've ever seen, I unfortunately see some rainbow effect, and yellow phosphour lag. I'm probably one in a million that sees these problems, but eh, it may be a deal breaker for me. Since I was ready to plunk down about 4.5g's on the 1080p model, I think I'm going to wait to see if the 81 series is good enough to at lest compete. If it can severly cut down response time & sample&hold, it should have pretty damn good motion tracking. If the damn local dimming doesn't have too many artifacts as a result of low-res led array, I'll be all over it. This TV has to last me 5-7 years.

We've been waiting to get an HDTV and have tried nearly every tech. First the 2004 or so model of the Wega 32" (12ms), the XBR960 which was awesome but had too many convergence issues, couldn't afford an ISF calibration at the time... Checked out DLP (awful rainbow effect for me), LCOS (still a possibility if I don't get bothered by SSE).

Lol, the only HDTV that works for me so far is the GDM-FW900 which is the nicest CRT display I've ever seen. Fantastic, just wish they made a 50" 100 pound model!

Really holding my breath on these new Samsungs. I like plasma tech better, but until the solve that phosphour lag issue on the Kuros I can't go for it. Though I've heard that that issue wildly varies from set to set, at least with other makes and models. Cross your fingers for me!

[HD-Gaming]

Don't know where you got info that the Sammy LN-T4081 is out next week, but that is not the info we have gotten so far. We got at least a month and half until we are going to see the LN-T4081 in high end A/V stores.

Based on your forum ID I would say your a gamer. Both support 1:1 pixel mapping. Beyond pixel mapping motion blur and shadow detail are probably your primary concerns. Shadow detail on the Sammy should be much better. We will not know about motion blur until we get to see them both. I would be making a complete guess about motion blur. Motion blur is a concern for me too.

The 81's still might have a 720p overscanning issue that is in the 65s. This is likely important if you game on consoles.


sorry, meant to say next month


so the XBR4 would the better choice for gaming?

[mike123abc]

IMO this can work for B/W picture but for color picture you have individually control RGB LEDs. The way I see it is as you going to over impose 2 different color gamuts with different color resolution. You may end up with severe color distortion on a final picture. May need a mainframe for computing. IMHO

What do you mean? This is what local dimming does... Increases the contrast range of the panel dynamically... It has been mentioned that Samsung is using a custom FPGA for this. There is also no mention of individual color LED dimming, but by overall brightness. But, it still has to calculate based on the needs of each color, i.e. if there was a bright red area, it would have to have the backlight up in that area to cover the red even though blue and green might be dim. It would open up the red gates and close the blue/green ones.

[vtms]

81 Series will have LED Scanning which, in theory, should eliminate motion blur and ghosting or at least reduce it to levels where these motion problems become negligible. Let's hope this will be confirmed by people who get to see these sets in action. The idea behind LED Scanning is to approximate the pattern by which CRTs produce an image. Instead of the electron beam scanning the screen, LEDs are being rapidly switched off and on again in sequence to emulate a similar pattern. This should result in natural motion without artifacts. We'll see.

[LaserEdge]

sorry, meant to say next month


so the XBR4 would the better choice for gaming?

Can't say for sure. We will have to just wait and find out. There is just too much speculation without doing a proper in home analysis. On paper I would say the 81 and that is why I am preordering from a B&M. If it turns out to be crap I can still return it.

[pakotlar]

81 Series will have LED Scanning which, in theory, should eliminate motion blur and ghosting or at least reduce it to levels where these motion problems become negligible. Let's hope this will be confirmed by people who get to see these sets in action. The idea behind LED Scanning is to approximate the pattern by which CRTs produce an image. Instead of the electron beam scanning the screen, LEDs are being rapidly switched off and on again in sequence to emulate a similar pattern. This should result in natural motion without artifacts. We'll see.

Wow it does? NICE. I thought it used standar 120hz motion interpolation. That tech imo is pretty useless because it really doesn't do a whole lot for hold time, and BFI increases input lag a lot. Neways, thats good new for me, I hope that + 120hz refresh will solve motion issues, and the LED local dimming will do great things for contrast ratios as long as the LED array isn't awfully low res.

[pakotlar]

No review or calibrator has reported the the 8G Kuros crush blacks. We shall see about your 81 series sampo. And please don't disappear when these screens get into reviewers and calibrators hands.

I'm going to shove your posts and claims right up your <censored> ;)

D-nice, I understand what ur saying about P____ 's blacks (they're awesome, and I certainly saw no black crush at all when I checked them out), but no LCD has used a strobing backlight except one Phillips LCD model which made headlines but only did it for some odd reason on SD content. The qualia displays absolutely did not strobe their backlight, do your own research.

Wait a second, is it 64*64 or 64 total. 64 total LED's is awful. Even still, D-Nice I don't really know why you are so against admitting this is cool. As far as I'm aware the Brightside Concepts used ~1.4k LED's, but that thing cost like 50 thousand dollars. For consumer tech target at the 3k-5k range, having any sort of local dimming LED tech not to mention the FIRST strobing backlight that works on HD sources, I think thats pretty cool. And I'm sure samsung is working hard to make sure that their LED array is large enough to display a good image. I certainly would expect that it will look much nicer than current displays. I mean HMM, I wonder what I would take: 16 thick flurocent lamps that are always on, or 64 LED's that can, at the very least dim an area roughly akin to the image being displayed? Not a hard decision.

[johnnybrulez]

D-nice, I understand what ur saying about P____ 's blacks (they're awesome, and I certainly saw no black crush at all when I checked them out), but no LCD has used a strobing backlight except one Phillips LCD model which made headlines but only did it for some odd reason on SD content. The qualia displays absolutely did not strobe their backlight, do your own research.

Wait a second, is it 64*64 or 64 total. 64 total LED's is awful. Even still, D-Nice I don't really know why you are so against admitting this is cool. As far as I'm aware the Brightside Concepts used ~1.4k LED's, but that thing cost like 50 thousand dollars. For consumer tech target at the 3k-5k range, having any sort of local dimming LED tech not to mention the FIRST strobing backlight that works on HD sources, I think thats pretty cool. And I'm sure samsung is working hard to make sure that their LED array is large enough to display a good image. I certainly would expect that it will look much nicer than current displays. I mean HMM, I wonder what I would take: 16 thick flurocent lamps that are always on, or 64 LED's that can, at the very least dim an area roughly akin to the image being displayed? Not a hard decision.

I don't think D-nice is against the tech. He's just being the devil's advocate to those who believe these sets are going to be perfect. Of course this going to be better than most of those gray black LCDs... :) I'd gladly take a few quirks to have really deep blacks.

But it's just also important to know of these issues if they arrise because there's a plasma that does black tremendously well vs. the competition as well already out.

[pawn45]

Like a few other posters here, I tried dropping buy my local BB/Magnolia to see if the 71/81 were in their systems yet. Unfortunately not :(

[spincut]

Notice "Auto Motion Plus LED" for 81 Series and "Auto Motion Plus 120Hz" for 71 Series.

so whats the difference then? i asked this earlier but none of my questions get answered anymore, i guess i'm just too slow to keep up with this thread now.

[pakotlar]

Ok, so it's 2160 led's split over 64 dimming zones. Thats actually really good if we're talking about the 52 inch version. With interpolation that could give some really great blacks. Samsung usually has very high QC on their LCD's so I expect these to be pretty good with backlight & local dimming artifacts. Should be interesting to say the least :D

[spincut]

Nice try. Qualia only improved color gamut. 64+ dimming areas can give both shadow detail and black hole blacks. 81 series certainly wont be crushing blacks like recent and upcoming displays from P******.

really? 64 clusters didnt sound like enough based on earlier discussions, it sounded like with so few it would dim areas that would also not need dimming vausing wierd problems. I thought people were saying it needed like 2000 sectors or something to get proper seperation, or can one clusters have dimmed nad non dimmed areas within it?

[vtms]

Quote:
Originally Posted by vtms
Notice "Auto Motion Plus LED" for 81 Series and "Auto Motion Plus 120Hz" for 71 Series.

so whats the difference then? i asked this earlier but none of my questions get answered anymore, i guess i'm just too slow to keep up with this thread now.

Hmm, I thought that was immediately obvious, namely, that 81 Series won't have 120Hz after all, and that this set will be reducing motion blur and ghosting with LED Scanning instead.

[SharpOne]

Like a few other posters here, I tried dropping buy my local BB/Magnolia to see if the 71/81 were in their systems yet. Unfortunately not :(

For those familiar with ABT Electronics, they have the 71's and 81's available for preorder now, no expected delivery date though. Good luck all!

[spincut]

Ok, so it's 2160 led's split over 64 dimming zones. Thats actually really good if we're talking about the 52 inch version. With interpolation that could give some really great blacks. Samsung usually has very high QC on their LCD's so I expect these to be pretty good with backlight & local dimming artifacts. Should be interesting to say the least :D

so wouldnt the other screens have the same amount? or would the 40 inch have less? would that make it not look as good then, or does it scale if it doesnt have the same LED's/Sectors?

sorry, meant to say next month


so the XBR4 would the better choice for gaming?

well if the XBR4 is better it will be because the 81 somehow messed up, but if it does what it's supposed to do i imagine the 81 would be better.....otherwise it's the 71 or the XBR4, and then it would be pretty close they use the same panel and factory, so i imagine the XBR4 may edge out the 71 due to likely superior Sony processing.

[spincut]

Quote:

Hmm, I thought that was immediately obvious, namely, that 81 Series won't have 120Hz after all, and that this set will be reducing motion blur and ghosting with LED Scanning instead.

so what hz is it running at then? and is this superior to 120khz (which at least from looking at sony seems less "native" and useful then originally thought).

[WaldorfSalad]

...and BFI increases input lag a lot....How so?

[vtms]

so what hz is it running at then? and is this superior to 120khz (which at least from looking at sony seems less "native" and useful then originally thought).
I'm not aware of Sony or any other display with LED Scanning. Now, what is the refresh rate? That's a good question. Go81, do you want to take a stab at it?

[Haight]

The current (Aug 2007) of Popular Science mentions the new Samsung 81 series on page 22. The only spec mentioned is that the the LED's are divided into 64 sections, which we already know. And it says the models will be available in LATE AUGUST with screen sizes from 40" to 57" and priced from $3500-7500

There's also a little paragragh on the Pioneer Kuro ($2700-$7500) and one on the Epson Home Cinema 1080 projectors ($3000). All competing in the new BLACK race.

[glow11]

81 Series will have LED Scanning which, in theory, should eliminate motion blur and ghosting or at least reduce it to levels where these motion problems become negligible. Let's hope this will be confirmed by people who get to see these sets in action. The idea behind LED Scanning is to approximate the pattern by which CRTs produce an image. Instead of the electron beam scanning the screen, LEDs are being rapidly switched off and on again in sequence to emulate a similar pattern. This should result in natural motion without artifacts. We'll see.

Man, I had labored under a misconception due to Engadget's write up for quite a while and thought it was 120hz as well (since they said "the 81 ups the ante" by adding this and that, but never mentioned that it wasn't 120hz in that paragraph).

So would the LED scheme do anything for 24p discs or not so much?

[spincut]

ok so yeah what frquency does it operate at (the discussion related to which, with pulldown, 24p and other terms all coming together to make no realy sense to me anyway) and will "LED scanning" trump 120khz gimmicks that these new displays will employ i wonder?

[DSET]

sorry, meant to say next month


so the XBR4 would the better choice for gaming?


I have a 4065

it has that is that issue with vga (only 16:9)
and it has that issue with component 720p (only 16:9)
component 1080p just scan can be enabled (not 100% sure as I use hdmi for 360 and ps3, but Im pretty sure)

hdmi 360\ps3 do "just scan" mode just fine
just scan is 1:1 no cropping and the response time on this tv shows No motion blur noticeable to me I have an XBR2 downstairs shows a little more cuz its it has a slower refresh rate but still hardly noticeable

Pc-to hdmi works 1:1 "Just Scan" just fine
even if you wanna do 16:10 1680 x 1050 it fits pretty well on the screen sizes up to about a 37inch's worth of picture only at 16:10 not 16:9
does 16:9 1080p perfectly aswell

[vtms]

Man, I had labored under a misconception due to Engadget's write up for quite a while and thought it was 120hz as well (since they said "the 81 ups the ante" by adding this and that, but never mentioned that
And just when it looked like 81 Series didn't have 120Hz, it might have both LED Scanning and 120Hz. Here's a quote from Twice magazine:
Like the 71 series, the 81 series models include 1080p resolution and a 120Hz frame rate using Samsung’s Auto Motion PlusLED technology. The Auto Motion Plus system is implemented “a little bit differently” than in the 71 series models, employing the LED quadrant scanning system, said Ali Atash, Samsung LCD senior marketing manager.

So it's 120Hz on top of "LED quadrant scanning"? Whatever this combination is, I hope it does a good job of eliminating motion blur.

[borf]

81 Series..might have both LED Scanning and 120Hz.




Wish it were so but i think its like this:

Auto Motion Plus=
Auto Motion Plus120 (120 hz frame interpolation - 71 series)
Auto Motion PlusLED (Backlight scanning only - 81 series)

http://www.hdguru.com/

[borf]

120hz + LED scanning (240hz) should compliment each other well.


problems with scanning -
flicker (eliminated at 120hz)
loss of brightness (cut by 1/2 at 120hz)

problems with 120hz -
needs quick response times (response time requirement less with "BFI" scanning)
can only reduce sample n hold blur by 1/2 (potentially eliminated with "BFI" scanning)

So 120hz for the judder mostly, scanning for the blur left over and then maybe = CRT.

[Rob L.]

Originally Posted by snowstorm81
We are indeed having 100 Hz as well as 2 subwoofers on our 81-series here in Europe, i.e called F96 series. It says 100 Hz LED Motion Plus

Look att IFA preview (German)
F96: http://www.prad.de/new/tv/specials/...2007-teil2.html
F86: http://www.prad.de/new/tv/specials/...2007-teil3.html


As always thanks to everyone for the great info. :)
I'm just wondering however does anyone know why the LE-52F96BD (part of the F96 series, which is the European version of the 81 series in the US) has a contrast ratio of 500:000:1 which is significantly different than the 100000:1 for the 81 series. Is this set based on an improved version of Samsungs LED LCD technology? I did the babel fish thing on the link to the F96 but as usual its translation leaves a lot to be understood.

[FullHD]

IFA F96 preview - (my) rough translation

The 'marketed' dynamic contrast ratio of 500.000:1 calls for a new era in LCD technology. This value is achieved by using a new backlight based on LEDs and Local Dimming. This technology is introduced in the Samsung F9 series.

The big advantage of LEDs to existing BLUs such as standard CCFL and WCG-CCFL is the possibility to control the luminance of individual pixelgroups. This way light areas of the image can be controlled by higher powered light whereas darker areas will have reduced power - to achieve extremely better dark, one of the weaknesses of LCD so far.

LED also enables better color space. Together with 10-bit video processing this will get even better color accuracy to ensure more natural images. LEDs improve luminance and reduce power requirements.

The Full HD panel with S-PVA technology made by Samsung themselves consists of a "Super Clear Panel", which means it is a glossy panel, similar to what was already present in the M8 series. Samsung's S-PVA panels offer a response time of 8ms.

The new F9 series is equipped with "100 Hz LED Motion Plus". Unfortunately we were given no details of this technology. Our own research lead us to believe that this is some kind of DNM (Digital Natural Motion) which in essence optimizes moving images by means of backlight scanning. This prevents the sample & hold effect if no static lighting is used. Also a combination of these methods is possible.

1:1 pixel mapping, native display without overscan should also be possible on the F9 series using "Just Scan". The LE-52F96BD is equipped with 3 HDMI ports based on version 1.3 and has Anynet+ which enables the control of all HDMI CEC compatible devices with just one remote control.

The F9 series should be available in Germany by the end of September. Samsung didn't say which versions will be available. We are sure so far that the new F9 series will be available here in sizes 52" and 70".

So far Samsung hasn't published any MSRP for Germany. In the USA the F9 series is known as the "81" and has been presented with MSRP $3000 for 40", $4000 for 46", $5000 for 52" and $7000 for 57". These sizes will most likely find their way to Germany. The 70" will have limited availability and is mainly targeted at professional applications. It's MSRP is estimated at several 10,000s of euros.

Unfortunately the LE-52F96BD at the IFA preview was broken so we couldn't see this very interesting LCD-TV in action. This means that the excitement and riddles surrounding its high contrast ratios will continue to exist at least until the public IFA presentation in Berlin.

[Alex the Great]

What do you mean? This is what local dimming does... Increases the contrast range of the panel dynamically... It has been mentioned that Samsung is using a custom FPGA for this. There is also no mention of individual color LED dimming, but by overall brightness. But, it still has to calculate based on the needs of each color, i.e. if there was a bright red area, it would have to have the backlight up in that area to cover the red even though blue and green might be dim. It would open up the red gates and close the blue/green ones.

Thank you for your inpute. I think your comment is correct but I've answered to a different Q. Please refer to the original post for details.

[Alex the Great]

I have a 4065

it has that is that issue with vga (only 16:9)
and it has that issue with component 720p (only 16:9)
component 1080p just scan can be enabled (not 100% sure as I use hdmi for 360 and ps3, but Im pretty sure)

l

Most likely you have old SW and FW versions. Contact Sammy for update or return you TV for exchange.

[pakotlar]

so wouldnt the other screens have the same amount? or would the 40 inch have less? would that make it not look as good then, or does it scale if it doesnt have the same LED's/Sectors?



well if the XBR4 is better it will be because the 81 somehow messed up, but if it does what it's supposed to do i imagine the 81 would be better.....otherwise it's the 71 or the XBR4, and then it would be pretty close they use the same panel and factory, so i imagine the XBR4 may edge out the 71 due to likely superior Sony processing.


Well that depends on Samsung. The surface area of a 52" display is ~60% than a 40" one (though I'm not sure what sizes this display is available in), so the LED density would go up quite a bit if they used the same # of LED's. Also it would be unnecissary, as long as the areal density of the 52" version is good enough. They will most likely use the same 64 zones (why mess with the circuitry for the ld) with a proportional # of LED's. So in some cases, I would expect the 40" to look even better, as # of zones/surface area would be improved. Of course they could scale the # of zones as well.

On second thought, this also depends on whether or not the # of LED's per zone is enough in a version that has scaled the # of LED's proportionally to the surface area of the 52". Who knows.

[pakotlar]

120hz + LED scanning (240hz) should compliment each other well.


problems with scanning -
flicker (eliminated at 120hz)
loss of brightness (cut by 1/2 at 120hz)

problems with 120hz -
needs quick response times (response time requirement less with "BFI" scanning)
can only reduce sample n hold blur by 1/2 (potentially eliminated with "BFI" scanning)

So 120hz for the judder mostly, scanning for the blur left over and then maybe = CRT.


Not sure why the backlight would have to scan any faster than 120hz. That fits quite nicely to 24, 48 etc. Also, the backlight doesn't have to scan at a rate that is proportional to the refresh rate. On 60hz LCD's that had BFI (BenQ for instance) the reason the image was flickering was because BFI was inserting black frames into the image at 60hz, thereby it was as if the image was a 60hz scanning backligh (if that analogy makes sense).

[rbarg]

Well that depends on Samsung. The surface area of a 52" display is ~60% than a 40" one (though I'm not sure what sizes this display is available in), so the LED density would go up quite a bit if they used the same # of LED's. Also it would be unnecissary, as long as the areal density of the 52" version is good enough. They will most likely use the same 64 zones (why mess with the circuitry for the ld) with a proportional # of LED's. So in some cases, I would expect the 40" to look even better, as # of zones/surface area would be improved. Of course they could scale the # of zones as well.

On second thought, this also depends on whether or not the # of LED's per zone is enough in a version that has scaled the # of LED's proportionally to the surface area of the 52". Who knows.

What is percentage increase in surface viewing area between:

40" and 46"
46" and 52"
52" and 57"

Is there an easy formula for calculating this?

[pakotlar]

What is percentage increase in surface viewing area between:

40" and 46"
46" and 52"
52" and 57"

Is there an easy formula for calculating this?

well the " rating is really the hypotenuse (sp?), so u can calculate it using a^2 +b^2 = c^2

also remember that it is a 16:9 display, so a:b is 16:9.

there are some freely available screen size calculators available too (which is what I used). they quickly spit out the sides.

[Flash01]

What is percentage increase in surface viewing area between:

40" and 46"
46" and 52"
52" and 57"

Is there an easy formula for calculating this?

In queue with Pakotlar's comments,

If you input the 16:9 ratio into the formula, (16x)^2 + (9x)^2 = d^2. Thus 337x^2 = d^2 and x = sqrt(d^2/337) and the area is 16x * 9x, thus 144x^2. So, the Area A = 144(sqrt(d^2)/337)^2 -> A = 144/337 * d^2 -> A = 0.42729d^2.

A 46 inch model has 40 by 22.5 (the 16:9 ratio computes, as does the diagonal) and an area of 900 sq in. (x = 2.50)

A 40 inch model has 34.88 by 19.62 (the 16:9 ratio computes, as does the diagonal) and an area of 685 sq in. (x = 2.18)

if you want ratios, it is even simpler as A1/A2 = d1^2/d2^2. So by jumping from 40 to 46 inches -> 46^2/40^2 = 1.32. That verifies as 685 x 1.32 (32% increase) = 900 (well roughly)

Edit : If you want dimensions, just calculate x and use 16x and 9x as the values.

[Raitzi]

What is percentage increase in surface viewing area between:

40" and 46"
46" and 52"
52" and 57"



32.2%,27,8% and 20.2 % respectively.

[LaserEdge]

And just when it looked like 81 Series didn't have 120Hz, it might have both LED Scanning and 120Hz. Here's a quote from Twice magazine:

So it's 120Hz on top of "LED quadrant scanning"? Whatever this combination is, I hope it does a good job of eliminating motion blur.

From an engineering perspective if I was going to design a video processor that supports 120Hz video processing for the 71s I would try to "reuse" as much of that as possible in the 81s. It saves cost and speeds up time to market. Logically speaking the 81s should have 120Hz video processing as well.

[westa6969]

What is percentage increase in surface viewing area between:

40" and 46"
46" and 52"
52" and 57"

Is there an easy formula for calculating this?
Here's a link to a calculator to measure size and format comparisons.

http://www.cavecreations.com/tv2.cgi

[wtr_wkr]

120hz + LED scanning (240hz)...
New math?!!! 120Hz update (every 8.3msec) with LED BLU off during LCD transition does not equal 240Hz. If BLU is off for 2ms of each 8.3ms cycle, that would be ~75%on and 25% off duty cycle.

From an engineering perspective if I was going to design a video processor that supports 120Hz video processing for the 71s I would try to "reuse" as much of that as possible in the 81s. It saves cost and speeds up time to market. Logically speaking the 81s should have 120Hz video processing as well.
120Hz with motion interpolation is one way to reduce blur but may include artifacts. With BFI, brightness (& contrast) is reduced. Strobed LED BLU will reduce blur. 120Hz with LED BLU and NO interpolation would reduce blur AND could do 5:5 (no 3:2 judder.) 120Hz with LED BLU AND motion interpolation would reduce blur, 5:5 AND smooth motion (reduce the judder (jerky motion) that you see at a movie theater.

The comparison may be:
71 with reduced blur by smoothing motion with some artifacts vs
81 with reduced motion by strobing BLU and no smoothing and no smoothing artifacts.

[high def mon]

In other 2007 Samsung led rptv's, they are using 120Hz to this advantage: http://news.com.com/1606-2-6197253.html?tag=nefd.also

[pakotlar]

New math?!!! 120Hz update (every 8.3msec) with LED BLU off during LCD transition does not equal 240Hz. If BLU is off for 2ms of each 8.3ms cycle, that would be ~75%on and 25% off duty cycle.


120Hz with motion interpolation is one way to reduce blur but may include artifacts. With BFI, brightness (& contrast) is reduced. Strobed LED BLU will reduce blur. 120Hz with LED BLU and NO interpolation would reduce blur AND could do 5:5 (no 3:2 judder.) 120Hz with LED BLU AND motion interpolation would reduce blur, 5:5 AND smooth motion (reduce the judder (jerky motion) that you see at a movie theater.

The comparison may be:
71 with reduced blur by smoothing motion with some artifacts vs
81 with reduced motion by strobing BLU and no smoothing and no smoothing artifacts.

Strobing backlights (or black frame insertion) will always reduce brightness. The faster it oscillates, the less light will be shone on any individual spot at any one time. What you wrote is a bit confusing. Strobing BLU will reduce hold time & reduce brightness. Contrast is not necessarily reduced because output = input^gamma. Smoothing? Motion interpolation is afaik another method for "blur" reduction, by adding frames, it reduces the retinal persistance time for any one
frame. Maybe as a by product, judder is reduced, but I'm pretty sure that is a result of 24->120hz mapping. Anyways, anytime you are trying to do something with source material by adding information, you will have artifacts. The reason 120hz helps with 24hz material is because 24hz maps to 120 without any loss of frames like 3:2 pulldown has.

As an aside, maybe motion interpolation + strobing would help more with motion, but I don't think it would be very noticeable. In the ideal case, a strobing backlight will make the limiting factor the response time of the LC, not the sample & hold effect. Think of strobing BLU and motion-interpolation as different approaches to the same problem. The former being a more complete solution with fewer downsides.

A q: I haven't been following LCD tv's for a while and it seems to me that we've been stuck at 8ms response times for something like 2 years. Is Samsung's rating conservative? I like the fact that Sharp has a "4ms" response time. Has anyone run motion tests (the little car thing, available online) on 4665 vs 4692u?

Also, is the LCD panel in 81 series new or is the same one used in 4665? I would guess new, since the 71 series has a much higher quoted contrast ratio, but what are the benefits of this new gen panel? Is it just contrast ratio? Or is motion improved as well? 120hz is only an indication of the circuitry used, not of the actual panel, am I correct?

I'm really looking to go LCD this next gen because I can't watch plasmas without noticing too many artifacts. I don't want to go RPTV. Does anyone have any more articles on the 81 series for some technical reading?

[pakotlar]

Blackframe insertion sounds like a surefire way to get flicker, not sure why this is a good idea. Also I want to know if they both can do 5:5 pullup, and especially from a 1080i telecine source.

No more flicker than a scanning backlight would create. Same principle, different approach. Of course it depends on how fast the backlight scans, and the refresh rate the LCD uses.

[pakotlar]

Dynamic on the 71 is 25K:1, so I would assume the native is 5k:1


ANSI contrast ratios are always so much less it kills me. I wish Manufacturers would all just use ANSI as it is more representitive of normal viewing conditions.

[pakotlar]

This info is well-known and does NOT dispel doubts about the LD.

LD has potential problem with artefacts, ESPECIALLY with moving objects. They can show up as ghosts, aureolas and shadows following brightly lit objects moving on black background. The effect will definitely be slight and visible only in darkened room conditions. Standard Johnny Consumer will be amazed by PQ, BL and CR of the display but critical observers like those on this forum endlessely pursuing cloudings & bandings will notice it immediately. There is thus signifcant potential for new future AVS threads discussing LDG - Local Dimming Ghosts and methods of preventing it including switching off the LD :D:D:D.


Gosh I hope this isn't the case.

[vtms]

Is it too early to speculate on SD performance?

[Shaitan]

I am interested in this set ONLY if its visuals quality matches (or exceeds) Sharps, without Sharps issues.

[glow11]

Gosh I hope this isn't the case.

Yeah, if LD has artifacts that make it better in the OFF position, I guess you have a pricier 71 series but at 100hz rather than 120hz.

[cmf]

Does anyone have any more articles on the 81 series for some technical reading?

Bump.

Immediate gratification or wait on the better technology....always the debate. Now that Samsung has fixed its HDMI handshake issues on the LNTxx65's, waiting for the 81-series to come out to see if it truly is worth double the price is just killing me.

[borf]

New math?!!! 120Hz update (every 8.3msec) with LED BLU off during LCD transition does not equal 240Hz.



You and pakotlar are most righteously right. The panel would be 120hz (with BLU switching). I was thinking of BFI!


BFI....time to retire that acronym.

[westa6969]

Strobing backlights (or black frame insertion) will always reduce brightness. The faster it oscillates, the less light will be shone on any individual spot at any one time. What you wrote is a bit confusing. Strobing BLU will reduce hold time & reduce brightness. Contrast is not necessarily reduced because output = input^gamma. Smoothing? Motion interpolation is afaik another method for "blur" reduction, by adding frames, it reduces the retinal persistance time for any one
frame. Maybe as a by product, judder is reduced, but I'm pretty sure that is a result of 24->120hz mapping. Anyways, anytime you are trying to do something with source material by adding information, you will have artifacts. The reason 120hz helps with 24hz material is because 24hz maps to 120 without any loss of frames like 3:2 pulldown has.

As an aside, maybe motion interpolation + strobing would help more with motion, but I don't think it would be very noticeable. In the ideal case, a strobing backlight will make the limiting factor the response time of the LC, not the sample & hold effect. Think of strobing BLU and motion-interpolation as different approaches to the same problem. The former being a more complete solution with fewer downsides.

A q: I haven't been following LCD tv's for a while and it seems to me that we've been stuck at 8ms response times for something like 2 years. Is Samsung's rating conservative? I like the fact that Sharp has a "4ms" response time. Has anyone run motion tests (the little car thing, available online) on 4665 vs 4692u?

Also, is the LCD panel in 81 series new or is the same one used in 4665? I would guess new, since the 71 series has a much higher quoted contrast ratio, but what are the benefits of this new gen panel? Is it just contrast ratio? Or is motion improved as well? 120hz is only an indication of the circuitry used, not of the actual panel, am I correct?

I'm really looking to go LCD this next gen because I can't watch plasmas without noticing too many artifacts. I don't want to go RPTV. Does anyone have any more articles on the 81 series for some technical reading?
I often wonder if any of some of you folks have hypersensitive retina's or if you've ever actually owned a quality LCD in your home versus crap viewing in the store with split feeds and poor source that simply does not replicate in one's home?

There is so much overkill on the motion issue that it's ridiculous. Normal vision requires less than 16ms to prevent motion and yes motion exists I won't deny that and a refinement is always welcome but damn it is so friggin rare on my Sharp that it's simply a VERY minor event for christs sake. In fact, with BD 1200, HD DVD, and Xbox360 I've never seen any = ZERO on both my 45" and 57" Sharp - while I've seen it often in the store in my home it's so rare as not to be an issue and I simply enjoy my HT 99.99% of the time and have no obsession with the perhaps one hundredth of one percent it may occur. Even with sports it's rare and so insignificant as not to be an issue. The most obvious is if your watching a concert and they strobe lights or set off pyrotechnics and I would suspect every panel has an issue with those events.

The way many of the members here have an obsession with it you'd think it was an always present event and that is BS! There are those with hypersensitive retina's that see phospher trails on PDP's and while I am not a Plasma fan I've never seen this event even when I owned one. My point is if your new to this forum and you witness these obsessive postings I wouldn't blame you for not wanting to buy one but in fact the events are so rare as to be an insignificant event and the Happy owners without all the BS problems reported on this forum are actually enjoying our panels and don't sheeite our pants on the rare occasions motion may present itself.

There are trade-offs with every single panel technology and if you don't agree please direct us where this Holy Grail is that your using as the Bar from which to measure and please don't tell me CRT or I'll vomit - very few CRT's had reference blacks - most are crap and have no wow factor whatsoever. What I find ridiculous is the onslaught of half empty observations and doubters over motion/blurr in the face of a manufacture trying to refine and prevent it and trashing even those attempts - so in the midst of trying to tweak the panels a step further they still get criticized. Damn can't we wait until we have a real 3D product i hand and in a home environ to judge reality versus white paper fake propositions where it appears many are debating personal supposition and subjective interpretation rather than objective reality.

Now, I'd go along with this if we had Dr. Raymond Soniera coming in here and doing an evaluation but what we have here are members with no profile backgrounds listed and to my knowledge do not even work in the field digesting and regurgitating old white papers and presenting it as fact - in College that wouldn't be an acceptable paper yet members are digesting it here as fact without any supporting credentials by those individuals. We'll know soon enough and those that may not like it are welcome to put their credentials forward to support their hypothesis. :) We'll know within the next month or so as a fact!

[borf]

no comment but you should start another post with that.

[jayhawk31]

I know this is a little off the subject of motion blur but I am trying to decided whether to get the Saumsung 81 series or one of the 1080P Pioneer plasmas coming out in September. Since the 81 series is supposed to have the shiny screen, it doesn't have the advantage is being less reflective. I am assuming that the new Pioneers have better blacks, better color accuracy, better off axis viewing, handle motion better, and will accept 1080 24 fps. I am assuming that the 81 series will be brighter, have better pixel fill, and use less power. Any other things I should consider?

[Andrew67]

I am assuming that the new Pioneers have better... Any other things I should consider?

The reviews. Assuming doesn't really answer any questions.

[gamelover360]

Yes, I too have read conflicting things. Does anyone have evidence that the 81 series will accept 24 fps and support HDMI 1.3? Those are two biggies for me. I have a PS3 and would really like both those features in a TV.

[glow11]

The reviews. Assuming doesn't really answer any questions.

Is there a good site that has up to date reviews on recently released TV's? I do searches on hardware that's been released in the last couple months and find nothing but reviews attached to sales sites, and on 95% of them all you find is "Be the first to write a review!"

[D-Nice]

Yes, I too have read conflicting things. Does anyone have evidence that the 81 series will accept 24 fps and support HDMI 1.3? Those are two biggies for me. I have a PS3 and would really like both those features in a TV.It accepts 24fps and has 3 HDMI 1.3 ports (2 rear, 1 side).

[seagrass]

Anybody else out there seen this ... All new 71 and 81 models listed at A.B.T. Also if you compare the images they have at ABT with Engadgets old link the Bezel actually looks slimmer on the sides of the 71 series. Which would be awesome if it's accurate. The panel size difference in the specs seem to support this as well. It list the 81's as being wider than the 71's. Albeit by not much.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=85610&stc=1


http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=85611&stc=1

[Alex the Great]

Yes, I too have read conflicting things. Does anyone have evidence that the 81 series will accept 24 fps and support HDMI 1.3? Those are two biggies for me. I have a PS3 and would really like both those features in a TV.

All latest (2007) 61Fs and 65Fs have 1.3 HDMI. I see no reason next gen models wont have it. Did you ask about specific version of HDMI in 81, will be 1.3a of 1.3b?
Sorry, I have no update for this as well as for 24p 5:5 pulldown support. Only time will show.

[mark_1080p]

Well, to follow up on seagrass' comment, checked out the image of the 5271 at ABT and it looks boxy, ugly, fat bezel with dumbo ears. How anyone would be excited about such a squarish unimaginative design simply boggles whatever brain circuitry I possess. Even the pedestal gets into it. Looks like some old sedan from the 70's, definitely negative Feng Shui :D :D.

Yea, yea, I know, its the performance that matters :p.

[wtr_wkr]

...........There is so much overkill on the motion issue that it's ridiculous.......
I do not sit close to the screen at a movie theater mostly due to the jerky motion. For those that are concerned about motion and it's affect on PQ, here's an early report from a Tosh 177 owner's observation of their motion interpolation.

Quote from ssammy:
"...Something really cool - in Citizen Kane there is a scene with a bunch of guys on a train reading newspapers. The headline reads "Traction Trust Exposed." With Clearframe set to "off" the newspapers are very difficult if not impossible to read without getting a headache - it kind of stumbles by in double images. With Clearframe "on" the headline is very clear and effortless to read. I had thought the demo for Clearframe was probably hyped and enhanced but it is not. I kept rewinding the scene and changing the setting from on to off and it was remarkable..."

" ...I should have been more clear in my post. The camera was panning by several people reading their newspapers..."

[seagrass]

Well, to follow up on seagrass' comment, checked out the image of the 5271 at ABT and it looks boxy, ugly, fat bezel with dumbo ears. How anyone would be excited about such a squarish unimaginative design simply boggles whatever brain circuitry I possess. Even the pedestal gets into it. Looks like some old sedan from the 70's, definitely negative Feng Shui :D :D.

Yea, yea, I know, its the performance that matters :p.


I'm actually in agreement with you on the looks as it is shown on engadget but, my slight excitement comes from the somewhat slimmer side bezels as shown on ABT of the 71 only. The 81 still does look ugly IMO. I've edited my post to directly show the difference in the photos. Performance is not the ONLY thing that matters to some of us.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=85613&stc=1

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=85614&stc=1

[mark_1080p]

Performance is not the ONLY thing that matters to some of us.Yep, I am one of those as well, performance matters most, but there are other factors such as appearance, cost, reputation of brand, etc. Prepare for flames, some get quite defensive about these sets :D.

[jksgvb]

...Does anyone have any more articles on the 81 series for some technical reading?

Here's a good white paper by Samsung on the technology:

http://www.iitk.ac.in/asid06/proceedings/papers/TC2_3-C.pdf

and a little more general info here:

http://www.bit-tech.net/hardware/2005/10/04/brightside_hdr_edr/7

[pakotlar]

Here's a good white paper by Samsung on the technology:

http://www.iitk.ac.in/asid06/proceedings/papers/TC2_3-C.pdf

and a little more general info here:

http://www.bit-tech.net/hardware/2005/10/04/brightside_hdr_edr/7

thanks

Sounds like there won't be any discernable motion artifacts, based on the first paper. I think D-nice should read this, he seems to like kakaing on things he doesn't know about.

[pakotlar]

I often wonder if any of some of you folks have hypersensitive retina's or if you've ever actually owned a quality LCD in your home versus crap viewing in the store with split feeds and poor source that simply does not replicate in one's home?

There is so much overkill on the motion issue that it's ridiculous. Normal vision requires less than 16ms to prevent motion and yes motion exists I won't deny that and a refinement is always welcome but damn it is so friggin rare on my Sharp that it's simply a VERY minor event for christs sake. In fact, with BD 1200, HD DVD, and Xbox360 I've never seen any = ZERO on both my 45" and 57" Sharp - while I've seen it often in the store in my home it's so rare as not to be an issue and I simply enjoy my HT 99.99% of the time and have no obsession with the perhaps one hundredth of one percent it may occur. Even with sports it's rare and so insignificant as not to be an issue. The most obvious is if your watching a concert and they strobe lights or set off pyrotechnics and I would suspect every panel has an issue with those events.

The way many of the members here have an obsession with it you'd think it was an always present event and that is BS! There are those with hypersensitive retina's that see phospher trails on PDP's and while I am not a Plasma fan I've never seen this event even when I owned one.




I don't know what is "hyper-sensitive"; in that case I would call your retinas hypo-sensitive. Phosphor lag is something that is very noticeable to me on some plasmas (seems to vary with make, model, and age), just as rainbows are extremely noticeable for me on DLP's. I can even notice rainbows on some plasmas by moving my eyes back and forth quickly, though then it usually only splits into 2 colors, not 3. Anyways, as far as blur on LCD's goes, are you kidding me when you talk about the 16ms?

Most people, including me, will see motion blur aka sample & hold time artifacts on CRT's with a white cursor on a black screen, and there, total sample & hold + response is ~1.5ms. Few of course would argue that CRT displays are not enough for "perfect" motion, as they certainly are perfectly acceptabele for most any other situation. LCD's are a different story. 16 ms response time is nowhere NEAR enough to have accurate reproduction of moving objects without unwanted blur, EVEN IF that included Sample & Hold. I think your argument is similar to the "The Human Eye Cannot See More Than 60 Frames Per Second" debate, which of course is nonsense. On top of the fact that 16ms will be awful at reproducing fast motion, there will be an additional penatly due to the always on nature of most LCD backlights. My great hope is that with the 81 series that motion reproduction will be almost at the level of a plasma display (which also is not great in some cases). If you ever have trouble seeing blur, put an LCD next to any CRT direct-view (that was made in the last 20 years).

As far as I'm aware, even the best LCD right now cannot resolve more than 300 lines moving at moderate speeds(and even then with some blurring), compared to ~700 lines in FAST motion with no blur on plasmas. It may not be a big issue to you, but please do not generalize to the general population. Retinal persistence varies from person to person, so what be accpetable to you, may not be for someone else.

Also, I'm not sure what you are trying to "debunk" as far as CRT contrast ratios go. Oh, so only the BEST CRT's have "reference" blacks? What a surprise. You mean only the best gets the rating of "best"? I think more telling is the fact that ONLY CRT's are used for reference displays. Sure you can find awful contrast ratios on bad/old crt displays (esp. monitors), but I would laugh if you tried to pit the worst crt vs the worst LCD. There were LCD's made 10 years ago that didn't know what the color grey looked like, nm black. Meanwhile, every CRT monitor that I've owned, dating back to 97 has had great black reproduction.

Sorry if my english is not to clear, it is not my first language. I may not be using some terms in perfectly technical manner, but the point is there.

[someguyinhb]

I often wonder if any of some of you folks have hypersensitive retina's or if you've ever actually owned a quality LCD in your home versus crap viewing in the store with split feeds and poor source that simply does not replicate in one's home?

There is so much overkill on the motion issue that it's ridiculous. Normal vision requires less than 16ms to prevent motion and yes motion exists I won't deny that and a refinement is always welcome but damn it is so friggin rare on my Sharp that it's simply a VERY minor event for christs sake. In fact, with BD 1200, HD DVD, and Xbox360 I've never seen any = ZERO on both my 45" and 57" Sharp - while I've seen it often in the store in my home it's so rare as not to be an issue and I simply enjoy my HT 99.99% of the time and have no obsession with the perhaps one hundredth of one percent it may occur. Even with sports it's rare and so insignificant as not to be an issue. The most obvious is if your watching a concert and they strobe lights or set off pyrotechnics and I would suspect every panel has an issue with those events.

The way many of the members here have an obsession with it you'd think it was an always present event and that is BS!

I hate to break it to you, but its not 'BS'. I see motion blur on LCDs even with routine motion...it doesn't have to be sports. It's not anything that I look for either, it jumps out at me.

Those who are not sensitive to motion blur like myself have a lot to be excited with the 81 series anticipated arrival. In fact, it has some of the black level lovers indecisive about which way they should go for their next set. If it doesn't crush blacks and that is a big if, I'm guessing there will be some folks who convert to this LCD.

[someguyinhb]

I know this is a little off the subject of motion blur but I am trying to decided whether to get the Saumsung 81 series or one of the 1080P Pioneer plasmas coming out in September. Since the 81 series is supposed to have the shiny screen, it doesn't have the advantage is being less reflective. I am assuming that the new Pioneers have better blacks, better color accuracy, better off axis viewing, handle motion better, and will accept 1080 24 fps. I am assuming that the 81 series will be brighter, have better pixel fill, and use less power. Any other things I should consider?

Better color accuracy, handling motion better, and accepting 1080p/24 are all givens. We won't know which set has the deeper blacks until we get some side by side reviews. My guess is that the Samsung 81 series will crush blacks more, but then again I don't know for sure.

[go81]

Better color accuracy, handling motion better, and accepting 1080p/24 are all givens. We won't know which set has the deeper blacks until we get some side by side reviews. My guess is that the Samsung 81 series will crush blacks more, but then again I don't know for sure.

81 series has better blacks, more accurate colors(leds), better motion, better shadow detail and more contrast than 8G. Don't waste your money on 8G, it crushes too much shadow detail to fake "good" blacks.

[someguyinhb]

81 series has better blacks, more accurate colors(leds), better motion, better shadow detail and more contrast than 8G. Don't waste your money on 8G, it crushes too much shadow detail to fake "good" blacks.

I'm sorry, but there is no way the 81 series will handle motion better. The 71 series won't even be equal in terms of handling motion. And I highly doubt it will have better color accuracy...that is a Pioneer speciality. As for the rest, I don't have the answers...neither do you or anyone else. Hopefully we get the rest of these questions answered in August.

[go81]

I'm sorry, but there is no way the 81 series will handle motion better. And I highly doubt it will have better color accuracy...that is a Pioneer speciality. As for the rest, I don't have the answers...neither do you or anyone else. Hopefully we get the rest of these questions answered in August.

Check white papers on leds and led strobing and come back. I wouldn't suggest saying anything about that answers part.

[someguyinhb]

Are you a PioBoy? Check white papers on leds and led strobing and come back. I wouldn't suggest saying anything about that answers part.

I've never owned a Pioneer, but one of my friends has one...and I have seen the new 8Gs at Magnolia. So unfortunately I don't think I qualify as a Pioboy yet. :p

The only things I will be checking is the displays when they become available and the side by side reviews.

[wiese]

Movies are 24 fps. You can't create information that isn't in the original source.

Would anyone here consider using a "feature" that purports to create surround sound from a stereo signal? That kind of stuff deserves to be derided as marketing BS.

The film in a movie projector is not moving smoothly. Each frame is held still while it is being projected, then a shutter blocks the light source as the frame is rapidly advanced.

But, since people perceive flicker at 24 Hz, movie projectors actually block the light source TWO times for each frame, upping the rate to 48 Hz, even though the image does not change every time that still eliminates the flickering. At this point many geeks will chime in with how they can see the flicker at 48 Hz, so I ask you to consider your own experience at the movie theater. And yes I am aware that a tiny percentage of movie projectors block the light 3 times, i.e. 72 Hz.

It is not practical to flash movie projector bulbs at 48 Hz, instead the light is always on and it is blocked with a rotating shutter with blades similar to a fan. The shutter spins one complete revolution for each frame of the movie, so the blades block the light twice per frame. Here is a picture of one from a parts distributor:

http://www.fproj.com/fp_supplies/fp_supplies_images/5322-515-400050.jpg
http://www.fproj.com/fp_supplies/kinotonparts.html

LEDs can be flashed on and off at high frequency, so there's no need for a mechanical shutter. Just turn off the backlight for an equivalent period of time.

People perceive an average brightness for each frame according to the duty cycle of the light source. The more times you block the light per frame, the dimmer the movie will be. This is why the vast majority of movie theaters use 48 Hz shutters, not 72 Hz.

The same logic applies to a modern LCD screen. If the source material is 24 Hz, showing it at 48 Hz will give the same experience as a movie theater. If the backlight is sufficiently bright, using 72 Hz would reduce perceived flicker without having the picture get too dim.

The important thing is to use an even multiple of 24, i.e. 48 or 72, NOT 60 Hz.

[Andrew67]

Check white papers on leds and led strobing and come back. I wouldn't suggest saying anything about that answers part.

White papers don't mean d*ck. We won't know how this set stacks up against the 8G plasmas from Pioneer, but to say that they'll be anything but comparable is ludicrous. They're not going to be head and shoulders above the Pio's.

[go81]

They're not going to be head and shoulders above the Pio's.

Based on what?

[Andrew67]

Based on what?

Based on LCD's are still chasing current generation plasmas. Based on the 8G Pioneer is better than the previous generation plasmas. Based on the 81 series LCD will be better than current gen LCD, which is an indicator that it will be on par with the 8G Pioneers.

What are you basing your assumptions that the 81 series LCD will be better than the 8G Pioneer? White papers? Seriously, you're basing LCD performance on a white paper? Do you not think that Pioneer has white papers that state the reverse? You need to do better than that.

I don't understand why you choose to rejoin this forum month after month when you've been banned time and time again. At what point does it dawn on you that you're not wanted here?

[go81]

Based on LCD's are still chasing current generation plasmas. Based on the 8G Pioneer is better than the previous generation plasmas. Based on the 81 series LCD will be better than current gen LCD, which is an indicator that it will be on par with the 8G Pioneers.

What are you basing your assumptions that the 81 series LCD will be better than the 8G Pioneer? White papers? Seriously, you're basing LCD performance on a white paper? Do you not think that Pioneer has white papers that state the reverse? You need to do better than that.

Sharp D92 certainly isn't chasing. 8G certainly crushes blacks better than previous generation plasmas. I'm basing my arguments on measurements.

There's no technical limitation for lcd to be superior to plasma. The only limitation is in your head!

[conan48]

I like go81. Even if he works for Samsung, I don't care. The reason people are excited is because the 81 series is not just an evolution of LCD, it is a revolution. This technology has the potential to make plasma obsolete, and I own 2 plasmas, and have never liked the picture produced by an LCD until I saw both the Sharp 92u (too bad for the banding) and the Samsung 65 series. Both these sets have better black levels then my Panny 60u plasmas and I sharper picture. Now, i know the 8g trumps the LCD I listed but the 81 series, at least on paper should kill the 8g. Way better contrast, much higher colour gamut(then pervious LCDS) not motion blur with LED strobing, no backlight issues (clouds, bands, etc) brighter then the 8g, higher ANSI contrast then the 8g, etc. I'm waiting for the 81 series and hope to directly compare it with the 8g as both these sets should be the best for their technologies.

[tonydeluce]

Based on LCD's are still chasing current generation plasmas. Based on the 8G Pioneer is better than the previous generation plasmas. Based on the 81 series LCD will be better than current gen LCD, which is an indicator that it will be on par with the 8G Pioneers.

What are you basing your assumptions that the 81 series LCD will be better than the 8G Pioneer? White papers? Seriously, you're basing LCD performance on a white paper? Do you not think that Pioneer has white papers that state the reverse? You need to do better than that.

I don't understand why you choose to rejoin this forum month after month when you've been banned time and time again. At what point does it dawn on you that you're not wanted here?

I bet the KUROs have significantly better ANSI CR and that the Samsung 81 series will have signficantly higher Dynamic CR...

But in any case, does anyone know when the 57 inch. 81 series will be out?

[someguyinhb]

I like go81. Even if he works for Samsung, I don't care. The reason people are excited is because the 81 series is not just an evolution of LCD, it is a revolution. This technology has the potential to make plasma obsolete, and I own 2 plasmas, and have never liked the picture produced by an LCD until I saw both the Sharp 92u (too bad for the banding) and the Samsung 65 series. Both these sets have better black levels then my Panny 60u plasmas and I sharper picture. Now, i know the 8g trumps the LCD I listed but the 81 series, at least on paper should kill the 8g. Way better contrast, much higher colour gamut(then pervious LCDS) not motion blur with LED strobing, no backlight issues (clouds, bands, etc) brighter then the 8g, higher ANSI contrast then the 8g, etc. I'm waiting for the 81 series and hope to directly compare it with the 8g as both these sets should be the best for their technologies.

Does the 81 series have the potential to look better in a lot of viewers eyes? Absolutely. As for it having the potential to make plasmas obsolete, no chance. LCDs will never make plasmas obsolete and vice versa. Perhaps a different technology will eliminate both LCDs & plasmas in the future, but rest assured neither will take the other out. It's like saying Apple will take PCs out or vice versa. Neither is going to happen.

[tonydeluce]

8G certainly crushes blacks better than previous generation plasmas. I'm basing my arguments on measurements.



Where are your measurements that the 8G crushes blacks better than previous
generation plasmas?

Assuming you are not simply "winging it", was the display calibrated properly?

[tonydeluce]

I like go81. Even if he works for Samsung, I don't care. The reason people are excited is because the 81 series is not just an evolution of LCD, it is a revolution. This technology has the potential to make plasma obsolete, and I own 2 plasmas, and have never liked the picture produced by an LCD until I saw both the Sharp 92u (too bad for the banding) and the Samsung 65 series. Both these sets have better black levels then my Panny 60u plasmas and I sharper picture. Now, i know the 8g trumps the LCD I listed but the 81 series, at least on paper should kill the 8g. Way better contrast, much higher colour gamut(then pervious LCDS) not motion blur with LED strobing, no backlight issues (clouds, bands, etc) brighter then the 8g, higher ANSI contrast then the 8g, etc. I'm waiting for the 81 series and hope to directly compare it with the 8g as both these sets should be the best for their technologies.

Why do you think the 81 series will have higher ANSI CR than the KUROs?

I have been all set to pull the trigger on the Pio Elite 60 inch. 1080p KURO but I should probably take a look at the 57 inch. Samsung 81 series ( I guess the only issue that concerns me with the 81 series is that the dyanamic modulation, i.e. how will that affect the PQ and will you be able to notice it changing )...

The other major concern is if the 81 series be able to take a 1080p24fps input and display each frame exactly five times with absolutely no processing whatsoever? Now that I have seen the new Pio's in action with various pans, etc. and seeing how the motion is rock solid with no judder I don't think I could settle for anything else..

[jksgvb]

...And I highly doubt it will have better color accuracy...that is a Pioneer speciality...

NEC has a great technical paper illustrating why LED backlighting produces better color accuracy and a wider gamut than phosphor-based displays or flourescent backlighting. It has to do with the spectral purity. Phosphors don't have the spectral purity of LEDs.

http://www.necdisplay.com/cms/documents/TechnologyPapers/LCD2180WG-LEDTechPaper_121605.pdf

[someguyinhb]

NEC has a great technical paper illustrating why LED backlighting produces better color accuracy and a wider gamut than phosphor-based displays or flourescent backlighting.

http://www.necdisplay.com/cms/documents/TechnologyPapers/LCD2180WG-LEDTechPaper_121605.pdf

That is something that I will have to see to believe. Lets not get carried away of how things look on paper. We'll let the displays do the talking once they are released. I don't doubt that the 81 series will get great reviews. It will probably be the most respected LCD to date.

[jksgvb]

Isochroma also posted some interesting comparisons and some great specral plots of phosphors here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8598150&highlight=phosphor+spectrum#post8598150

In most of the critical reviews of CRT and plasma sets I've read, the over-abundant greens are criticized. It's a feature of phosphor technology, and it's not hard to see why when you look at the spectral plot of green phosphors.

[pakotlar]

I bet the KUROs have significantly better ANSI CR and that the Samsung 81 series will have signficantly higher Dynamic CR...

But in any case, does anyone know when the 57 inch. 81 series will be out?


Well if Samsung's own whitepaper is to be believed, the 81 will be very competitive in terms of black levels. ANSI tests I believe a checkerboard pattern, which isn't nec. very representative of contrast you see in actual viewing because it is a static image, and it would be relatively easy for Samsung to turn off led's in squares that are black as long as there are enough dimming zones, and in that case the Samsung may produce a higher # than the Kuros. In terms of contrast of white objects on dark background in motion it is anyones guess. Kuros is very good though, so even if the Samsung trumps it, I don't think anyone should be basing their purchasing decision on that fact alone.

It is refreshing to hear that the D92 series has image quality that at least is comparable to new Plasmas. Of course it is buggered with bands and clouds, but that gives one reasonable hope that the 81 series will be able to match iq of the kuros.

edit: Forgot to add in the first paragraph that ANSI won't be so repr. for LD LED BLU's, but is still pretty good for PDP's & CCFL BLU's.

[tonydeluce]

Well if Samsung's own whitepaper is to be believed, the 81 will be very competitive in terms of black levels. ANSI tests I believe a checkerboard pattern, which isn't nec. very representative of contrast you see in actual viewing because it is a static image, and it would be relatively easy for Samsung to turn off led's in squares that are black as long as there are enough dimming zones, and in that case the Samsung may produce a higher # than the Kuros. In terms of contrast of white objects on dark background in motion it is anyones guess. Kuros is very good though, so even if the Samsung trumps it, I don't think anyone should be basing their purchasing decision on that fact alone.

It is refreshing to hear that the D92 series has image quality that at least is comparable to new Plasmas. Of course it is buggered with bands and clouds, but that gives one reasonable hope that the 81 series will be able to match iq of the kuros.

Thanks for the response.. fyi, ANSI CR is much more indicative of what you see during normal viewing since both black and white squares are on the screen at the same time. On/off CR is less so as it is determined by the highest white and lowest black the set is capable of without the same scene being displayed. Dyanamic CR is even less meaningful since it does decrease the total amount of light output to increase the effective CR...

And since not every pixel is modulated, what happens if the boundare of the LED segmment does not correspond with the boundary of the checker board pattern?

[glow11]

Does the 81 series have the potential to look better in a lot of viewers eyes? Absolutely. As for it having the potential to make plasmas obsolete, no chance. LCDs will never make plasmas obsolete and vice versa. Perhaps a different technology will eliminate both LCDs & plasmas in the future, but rest assured neither will take the other out. It's like saying Apple will take PCs out or vice versa. Neither is going to happen.

Thats right! Apple has 6.1% of the PC's market now! :p

[xb1032]

I bet the KUROs have significantly better ANSI CR and that the Samsung 81 series will have signficantly higher Dynamic CR...

But in any case, does anyone know when the 57 inch. 81 series will be out?

57" is supposed to retail at $6999 in limited quantities at select retailers. If only the 70"er would be coming out at $6999! The link stated they are due out in August (I would assume the end but who knows).

[xb1032]

81 series has better blacks, more accurate colors(leds), better motion, better shadow detail and more contrast than 8G. Don't waste your money on 8G, it crushes too much shadow detail to fake "good" blacks.

That's a pretty bold statement. Have you actually seen them side by side? The 1080P 8G models aren't even out yet.

One thing I've learned from reading on this board is that there are a lot of posters here who get stuck on one television (or are actually marketers) and rave on and on how wonderful a TV is before anyone actually sees it side by side in person. I remember last year a poster just praised the Mitsubishi DLP and how much better it was than plasma and all other microdisplays and had a following. However, once the set came out it wasn't half of what he made it out to be. I'll believe it when I see it.

If you haven't actually seen them side by side in person, the best you have is an opinion or an educated guess.

The Samsung 81's may crush the Pioneer, then again it may not. We're only months away so we'll all know soon enough by seeing with our own eyes. To most including myself, these sets will be the only battle worth watching.

[vtms]

I see motion blur on LCDs even with routine motion...it doesn't have to be sports. It's not anything that I look for either, it jumps out at me.

I agree. To claim current LCDs lack motion blur or that we who see it should learn to live with it is rather silly.

[vtms]

That's a pretty bold statement. Have you actually seen them side by side?
I think he said he had seen them but I don't think it was in a side-by-side situation.

[pakotlar]

Thanks for the response.. fyi, ANSI CR is much more indicative of what you see during normal viewing since both black and white squares are on the screen at the same time. On/off CR is less so as it is determined by the highest white and lowest black the set is capable of without the same scene being displayed. Dyanamic CR is even less meaningful since it does decrease the total amount of light output to increase the effective CR...

And since not every pixel is modulated, what happens if the boundare of the LED segmment does not correspond with the boundary of the checker board pattern?

Tony, thats part of the problem with having 64 dimming zones. Read the whitepaper, it talks about a solution to this. I'm not well read on the subject, but I would imagine it would have to light adjecent zone's as well, and do its best with smoothing the gradation to make it less noticeable.

As far as ANSI vs everything else, I agree, and thats what I wrote several posts back. To elucidate the issue with ANSI for you, imagine that the ANSI pattern is such that it allows the LED BLU to light only clusters in the white zones. In that case, the ANSI contrast can reach a very high figure, even though it will not represent what you see during normal high contrast scenes. As far as dynamic CR, well LD BLU's are dynamic by nature... Static CR measures, like ANSI will be better than the nonsense "Dynamic" figures quoted, but I don't think that ANSI should be the only test looked at with these BLU's.

[D-Nice]

That's a pretty bold statement. Have you actually seen them side by side? The 1080P 8G models aren't even out yet.

One thing I've learned from reading on this board is that there are a lot of posters here who get stuck on one television (or are actually marketers) and rave on and on how wonderful a TV is before anyone actually sees it side by side in person. I remember last year a poster just praised the Mitsubishi DLP and how much better it was than plasma and all other microdisplays and had a following. However, once the set came out it wasn't half of what he made it out to be. I'll believe it when I see it.

If you haven't actually seen them side by side in person, the best you have is an opinion or an educated guess.

The Samsung 81's may crush the Pioneer, then again it may not. We're only months away so we'll all know soon enough by seeing with our own eyes. To most including myself, these sets will be the only battle worth watching.go81 works for Samsung (incase you didn't know). He has been attempting to attack the Kuro line for months under 10 different usernames (previous usernames have been banned...current one will be soon). He's currently "stuck on stupid" with his "black crush theory" as it has already been debunked by AVS member umr (nationally renowned ISF calibrator).

[tonydeluce]

Tony, thats part of the problem with having 64 dimming zones. Read the whitepaper, it talks about a solution to this. I'm not well read on the subject, but I would imagine it would have to light adjecent zone's as well, and do its best with smoothing the gradation to make it less noticeable.

As far as ANSI vs everything else, I agree, and thats what I wrote several posts back. To elucidate the issue with ANSI for you, imagine that the ANSI pattern is such that it allows the LED BLU to light only clusters in the white zones. In that case, the ANSI contrast can reach a very high figure, even though it will not represent what you see during normal high contrast scenes. As far as dynamic CR, well LD BLU's are dynamic by nature... Static CR measures, like ANSI will be better than the nonsense "Dynamic" figures quoted, but I don't think that ANSI should be the only test looked at with these BLU's. Apparently, on ANSI this display does ~10k for reference.

10K ANSI CR? WOW - I am definitely going to have to check it out.. If they can execute on the LED modulation without too many noticable artifacts this should be a winner...

Is there any way to turn off the light modulation if you don't like it ( it appears the 71 series doesn't have it but it doesn't come in a 57 inch either )...

Do you know how it handles 1080p24fps? Does it display each frame 5X without any processing?

[pakotlar]

10K ANSI CR? WOW - I am definitely going to have to check it out.. If they can execute on the LED modulation without too many noticable artifacts this should be a winner...

Is there any way to turn off the light modulation if you don't like it?

Do you know how it handles 1080p24fps? Does it display each frame 5X without any processing?


eheh, i edited that part out right before you posted. i rechecked the paper, and it looks like it scores between 20k and 5k depending on the pattern displayed, but no checkerboard shown. I'd wager it would be closer to 3-4k myself, but who knows. That would put it in line with the Kuros, which would be phenomenal to say the least.

1080p 24 is 5x yes (120hz). Dunno about turning off light modulation.

Yes, if they can execute this will be a winner for LCD camp. I'm going to wait and see :D

edit: the paper in question : http://www.iitk.ac.in/asid06/proceedings/papers/TC2_3-C.pdf

[petrovy]

that those side speaker baffles ("ears" per Mark) look to be chintzy see thru plastic :eek: , unlike the chintzy phony solid "chrome" baffles on the 65 series. Check out the pictures from a few pages back (ifa-preview), where the set are shown against multi-colored backgrounds.


Well, to follow up on seagrass' comment, checked out the image of the 5271 at ABT and it looks boxy, ugly, fat bezel with dumbo ears. How anyone would be excited about such a squarish unimaginative design simply boggles whatever brain circuitry I possess. Even the pedestal gets into it. Looks like some old sedan from the 70's, definitely negative Feng Shui :D :D.

Yea, yea, I know, its the performance that matters :p.

[lipcrkr]

81 series shows 24p@48hz.

The following video shows dimming pretty well. Time 1:35.

http://www.ddaily.co.kr/news/news_view.php?uid=25473

It's the 70" LED LCD with matte panel.

Well, that sucked.

[glow11]

81 series shows 24p@48hz.

The following video shows dimming pretty well. Time 1:35.

http://www.ddaily.co.kr/news/news_view.php?uid=25473

It's the 70" LED LCD with matte panel.

Page just hangs...anyone got a mirror?

Never mind, I guess it was FireFox

[lipcrkr]

Page just hangs...anyone got a mirror?

Never mind, I guess it was FireFox

I saw it on IE, you didn't miss much.

[Scanner Brightly]

I've searched this thread, but I can't quite tell if either the 81 or the 71 support xvYCC, or what Sony calls "x.v.Color". It's apparently part of the HDMI 1.3 spec, but I don't know if HDMI 1.3 guarantees xvYCC.

After spending so much on one of these TVs, I want to be sure that in some theoretical future, when a 10 bit color PlayStation 3 game comes out, I'd like to still have that "whoa" feeling. :)

Other than that, seeing the prices for the 46" on ABT really put Sammy back into the "August Question". Just as I was about to lust after an XBR4...

[vtms]

It seems like different companies have been working on the same technology and each one names it differently. Samsung calls it "Local Dimming". LG calls it "Local Area Luminance Control". And now CMO decides to name it...."Hyper Chameleon". :p

http://aving.net/usa/news/default.asp?mode=read&c_num=49963&C_Code=09&mn_name=news
http://image.aving.net/img/2007/06/14/20070614040456903.jpg

http://www.cmo.com.tw/cmo/english/about/shownews1.jsp?flag=20070614101307

[bplewis24]

To most including myself, these sets will be the only battle worth watching.

Where is Don King when you need him? :)

Brandon

[go81]

It seems like different companies have been working on the same technology and each one names it differently. Samsung calls it "Local Dimming". LG calls it "Local Area Luminance Control". And now CMO decides to name it...."Hyper Chameleon". :p


This is pretty mature tech from engineering perspective. Samsung calls it in EU "led smart lighting". Basic principles are the same. LED/driving has always been more or less cost issue. Look for local dimming sets from every major manufacturer in year 2008. This is good for consumers and I can finally retire my hd crt.

[borf]

A 64 blocked LED grid structure cannot give both adequate shadow detail and "black hole" blacks, can it?

I don't like it. All they are doing is sacrificing local contrast for total contrast.
The C/R is better between blocks (farther apart the better) but worse within blocks.
(hmm, guess which spec samsung will use).

First critical problem of local dimming is how to decide the luminous intensity of each LED block according to the image contents. Some tradeoff is required to balance the majority and maximal gray levels in each image block

But now they can say "we have 50,000:1 plasma beater!" and it will be echoed all over and panels will sell but it won't be true technically. Just another deceptive LCD spec in a long list?. LD defies legitimate C/R measurements. Reading samsung's white paper i was hoping to find some magic there but all the fancy algorithms can't change the fact that this is a half-ass solution for poor LCD black levels. Local washout, non uniform brightness and other things people mentioned here are going to be there to some degree despite that "No obvious visual artifacts were observed in the proposed system" - hmm didn't see the tests for that. I guess the worst thing is that content won't be displayed as it was meant to. Had they done one LED per pixel i would be all for it.


-

[go81]

Thanks borf, you just described CRT. Do you know that plasma can't never display a jet black screen?

[seagrass]

that those side speaker baffles ("ears" per Mark) look to be chintzy see thru plastic :eek: , unlike the chintzy phony solid "chrome" baffles on the 65 series. Check out the pictures from a few pages back (ifa-preview), where the set are shown against multi-colored backgrounds.


"Chintzy see thru plastic " ... missed those. Hopefully removable as well. Those pics do back up the whole bezel width intrigue as they as well, showing 2 different width bezels on the sets , although on that one the 81 looks like it has the slimmer of the two. I am honestly still just as excited as ever.


http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=85675&stc=1

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=85676&stc=1

[borf]

Thanks borf, you just described CRT. Do you know that plasma can't never display a jet black screen?

What do you mean CRT. That's ok i don't own a plasma. Wasn't dissing LCD for plasma or samsung either because every one will be doing LD.

[go81]

What do you mean CRT. That's ok i don't own a plasma. Wasn't dissing LCD for plasma.

CRT has those local dimming "problems" also. Do your homework next time before you come here to shout.

[borf]

CRT has those local dimming "problems" also.

So what's that got to do with anything i said about LD on LCD.

[go81]

So what's that got to do with anything i said about LD on LCD.

CRT is still the benchmark. I see no one dissing studio quality CRT. I bet studio quality CRT isn't good enough for you?

Had they done one LED per pixel i would be all for it.

Nice try. Start reading from page 1. You won't get better consumer tech in this decade.

[borf]

studio quality CRT isn't good enough for you?



Sure it is. Hope LD can match it. Dont think so going by the white paper but time will tell.
I know if one LED per pixel were possible they would have done it.

[go81]

Sure it is. Hope LD can match it. Dont think so going by the white paper but time will tell.

It's all about correct implementation. Too few dimming zones and bad algorithm won't get manufacturers far. A set with good algorithm and adequate amount of dimming zones will produce stunning results. I don't believe that 81 series will match Sony BVM studio monitors, but maybe 2008 Bravia XBRs are equal.

[vtms]

Sure it is. Hope LD can match it. Dont think so going by the white paper but time will tell. I know if one LED per pixel were possible they would have done it.This has been discussed many times in this thread (I know, everybody reads the last page) but I'll say it again. LED per pixel implementation is not required at all. You're basically waiting for OLED here not realizing the same or even better PQ can be achieved with much, much lower modulated backlight resolution. BrightSide, for example, produced true HDR display with backlight resolution of only 45x31! Anything higher than that is overkill. It's absolutely incredible that is possible but it is.

[vtms]

Basic principles are the same. LED/driving has always been more or less cost issue.
Haitz's law should pretty much take care of that. And soon. :D

Look for local dimming sets from every major manufacturer in year 2008. This is good for consumers and I can finally retire my hd crt.
Exactly. This time next year almost all major LCD producers will have announced at least one line of LCDs including hyper chameleon. :D Just watch. :p

[D-Nice]

This has been discussed many times in this thread (I know, everybody reads the last page) but I'll say it again. LED per pixel implementation is not required at all. You're basically waiting for OLED here not realizing the same or even better PQ can be achieved with much, much lower modulated backlight resolution. BrightSide, for example, produced true HDR display with backlight resolution of only 45x31! Anything higher than that is overkill. It's absolutely incredible that is possible but it is.You're right, you do not need per pixel dimming. However, you do need more than 64 dimming zones. Regardless of what that white paper from Samsung says, it's going to have problems.

Sony and others will be doing it right in 2008. For those who purchase the 81 series, good luck. When you run into artifacts, dimming issues, etc....don't say you were not warned.

[go81]

This message is hidden because D-Nice is on your ignore list.

D-Nice, how much static contrast sony studio crt monitor has with 4x4 checkerboard pattern(equal to 16 dimming zones)? You are only making it worse for yourself, you have no respect in this thread.

[D-Nice]

D-Nice, how much static contrast sony studio crt monitor has with 4x4 checkerboard pattern(equal to 16 dimming zones)? You are only making it worse for yourself, you have no respect in this thread.I thought I was on your ignore list...something changed?

[vtms]

You're right, you do not need per pixel dimming. However, you do need more than 64 dimming zones. Regardless of what that white paper from Samsung says, it's going to have problems.
We'll see. I'm really curious how these 64 clusters perform. I'm guessing there's a good reason why Samsung chose this number (or was that the highest they could afford?) and hope PQ isn't too compromised as a result of this number being seemingly low.

Sony and others will be doing it right in 2008.
I don't know how you know this, but let's hope so. Samsung's 81 Series is just a first example of commercially available and affordable LD technology. The rest of the big players will follow soon and I'm sure they will try hard to do it better and probably cheaper.

[go81]

This message is hidden because D-Nice is on your ignore list.
How about giving a proper answer to my question? Plasma is dead as "high end" display, get over it.

http://i19.tinypic.com/4p29puv.jpg

[D-Nice]

We'll see. I'm really curious how these 64 clusters perform. I'm guessing there's a good reason why Samsung chose this number (or was that the highest they could afford?) and hope PQ isn't too compromised as a result of this number being seemingly low. They chose 64 as that the max their custom processor could handle for their price point. They made that decision last year prior to the availability of better and more capable processors.

[go81]

They chose 64 as that the max their custom processor could handle for their price point. They made that decision last year prior to the availability of better and more capable processors.

Wrong. You really don't have a clue.. http://www.avforums.com/forums/images/smilies/rotfl.gif

[D-Nice]

How about giving a proper answer to my question? Plasma is dead as "high end" display, get over it.

http://www.cyberunblock.com/cgiproxy/nph-proxy.pl/000000A/http/i19.tinypic.com/4p29puv.jpgWhat you fail to realize is I have no stock in Pioneer nor do I work for them. I want the best display solution and it doesn't matter who it is from. If Panasonic created a Kuro type plasma this year I would be all over it. If Samsung created a LD LCD with more that 64 dimming zones, I would be all over it. If SED was actually reality, I would be all over it. Currently the best display for my purposes is the Kuro line.

Why you continue to bash another product and tell others to get a 81 series over all others is beyond me. You don't have the balls or the capacity to force feed me your 81 series BS. I cannot say the same for others, so I guess you need to focus on them.

[D-Nice]

Wrong. You really don't have a clue.. http://www.avforums.com/forums/images/smilies/rotfl.gifYou want to post those internal technical papers about the 81 series and prove me wrong? I do have access to the same info ;)

[go81]

You want to post those internal technical papers about the 81 series and prove me wrong? I do have access to the same info

The processor in 81 series can handle more dimming zones just fine. If you would study things, you would know that it's led driver cost issue. I won't answer to your comments or questions ever again. A complete waste of time.

[enator]

The processor in 81 series can handle more dimming zones just fine. If you would study things, you would know that it's led driver cost issue. I won't answer to your comments or questions ever again. A complete waste of time.

Why no answer? I really like this war going on there :D :D :D

[go81]

Why no answer? I really like this war going on there :D :D :D

It's simply not worth arguing about anything with someone spreading FUD.

[D-Nice]

The processor in 81 series can handle more dimming zones just fine. If you would study things, you would know that it's led driver cost issue. I won't answer to your comments or questions ever again. A complete waste of time.Really!?!?! Would you like to discuss Samsung internal docs in PM? I understand that you would be violating Samsung employee rules by discussing them on a public forum (especially your NDA).

If you do not want to do it by PM, we can discuss it, per phone, email, or IM. Your choice.

[Alex the Great]

81 series has better blacks, more accurate colors(leds), better motion, better shadow detail and more contrast than 8G. Don't waste your money on 8G, it crushes too much shadow detail to fake "good" blacks.

You keep arguing to Color Accuracy. And it has no sense for me. Because IMO color accuracy is just a result of calibration. Any monitor with any BL can be calibrated to produce more natural colors and LED does not superior from this point of view. I even think that due to wider CG of LED BL the calibration might be more difficult.

[glow11]

Good Lord! GO TO THE STORE, BUY WHAT LOOKS BEST TO YOU! Argument WON!

[conan48]

go81, give DNice your phone number and record the conversation. It would make a very interesting conversation. :p

I like DNnice am looking for the best picture, no matter the techonlogy. Thats why Im not getting the Pio 8g, because this 81 series has a serious chance at beating the Pio 8g. Now Dnice, what if the 81 series does indeed blow your mind and its better then you expected. You've been talking down the 81 series on this thread for a while now. Always posting of the possible problems of the tv, but never the huge benefits. Because of you dislike of go81 will you not buy the 81 series? Everytime you walk buy one at the store you will see go81 snickering at you. I think you need a break from each other.

go81. If you work for Samsung just tell us man. It's always good to have an insider here to give us the info before anyone else. Mike from Sharp used to post on the official Sharp threads all the time (untill he got in trouble) Just don't use your real name and no one will know who you are.

If go81 comes out of the closet ;) then I think you mister Dnice should also come out and admit that you work for Pio. It's only fair.

[go81]

You keep arguing to Color Accuracy. And it has no sense for me. Because IMO color accuracy is just a result of calibration. Any monitor with any BL can be calibrated to produce more natural colors and LED does not superior from this point of view. I even think that due to wider CG of LED BL the calibration might be more difficult.

Wrong. Read this:

http://www.necdisplay.com/cms/documents/TechnologyPapers/LCD2180WG-LEDTechPaper_121605.pdf

http://i17.tinypic.com/4mje9gm.jpg

Do you really think that just by calibrating you can get CCFL backlight to emit pure white?

RGB LED backlight emits pure white. Pure white is needed for perfect colors in a consumer display.

[D-Nice]

go81, give DNice your phone number and record the conversation. It would make a very interesting conversation. :p

I like DNnice am looking for the best picture, no matter the techonlogy. Thats why Im not getting the Pio 8g, because this 81 series has a serious chance at beating the Pio 8g. Now Dnice, what if the 81 series does indeed blow your mind and its better then you expected. You've been talking down the 81 series on this thread for a while now. Always posting of the possible problems of the tv, but never the huge benefits. Because of you dislike of go81 will you not buy the 81 series? Everytime you walk buy one at the store you will see go81 snickering at you. I think you need a break from each other.

go81. If you work for Samsung just tell us man. It's always good to have an insider here to give us the info before anyone else. Mike from Sharp used to post on the official Sharp threads all the time (untill he got in trouble) Just don't use your real name and no one will know who you are.

If go81 comes out of the closet ;) then I think you mister Dnice should also come out and admit that you work for Pio. It's only fair.I've already stated I do not work for Pioneer. I do not mind having a phone conversation with go81. And you best believe my conversation will be recorded on my end ;)

I have issues with 64 dimming zones. I do not have any LCD problems with Samsung as a company. LD LCDs are a major milestone. You just need more dimming zones to do it right.

I surely will go see the 81 series when it comes out. However I have zero expectations that it will impress me. If it turns out that I was wrong, I will gladly come back to the thread and admit it. I don't see that happening though.

[valoidr]

go81, give DNice your phone number and record the conversation. It would make a very interesting conversation. :p

I like DNnice am looking for the best picture, no matter the techonlogy. Thats why Im not getting the Pio 8g, because this 81 series has a serious chance at beating the Pio 8g. Now Dnice, what if the 81 series does indeed blow your mind a