Samsung 81 Series anticipation thread

[vtms]

Samsung's new 81 series promises to offer dramatic improvements over existing LCD technology. Please post your impressions (if you've managed to see one of these sets in person) and news here. Thanks.

Pictures & Reviews: (last update: 8/25/2007)
Posted by davidjschenk:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=11416302&postcount=4429
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=11416385&postcount=4430
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=11418199&postcount=4462
Posted by farscaperkevin:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=11346751&postcount=3315
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=11347084&postcount=3328
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=11347151&postcount=3335
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=11347295&postcount=3349
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=11347784&postcount=3399
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=11347821&postcount=3406
Posted by zolanyc:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=11410079&postcount=4303
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=11410745&postcount=4320
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=11411614&postcount=4340
Posted by Brackhar:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=11411284&postcount=4332


http://www.gizmodo.com/assets/resources/2007/01/Samsung%20contrat.JPG

Sizes & MSRPs:
40-inches ($2,999)
46-inches ($3,999)
52-inches ($4,999)
57-inches ($7,999)
70-inches (TBA)
1080p
LED BLU
Contrast - 100 000:1
Local Dimming
LED Scanning
8ms
HDMI 1.3 (3 ports)
Color Gamut - 105% NTSC
Availability - August 2007 (70-inch model scheduled for release in Q4 2007)


http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/11/samsung-announces-71-81-series-1080p-lcd-hdtvs/
http://www.blogsmithmedia.com/www.engadget.com/media/2007/07/samsung-81-71-series-04.jpg
The 81 series ups the ante with an LED backlight, bumping the contrast ratio to a measly 100,000:1, and also comes with 10-bit processing, 8ms response time, an ATSC / clear QAM tuner, CEC HDMI, USB, and also lands in August in 40, 46, 52, and 57-inch sizes( for $3000, $4000, $5000, and $7000, respectively).

[Jason Bourne]

The 81s look really interesting.

Will be accepting Sharp's refund offer for my 52D62U and was planning to plow it into a 52D92U in Feb but now I wonder if I should wait for the Samsung 81.

5 months seems like an eternity in LCD land.

On Aug 15, 2006, the D62Us weren't even out (and banding was not the most common word). I thought I got a great deal at $3400 in mid Oct; now 3 months later, they can be had mid $2Ks....

[necrolop]

I saw this set in person. Was absolutely impressed. What pissed me off is the Sony people didnt know if the new XBRs were local dimmed or not. So as of now, its the 81 for me.

[vtms]

I saw this set in person. Was absolutely impressed.
Everyone who's seen it seems to have a similar opinion. Finally, a display we can be excited about.

What pissed me off is the Sony people didnt know if the new XBRs were local dimmed or not.
LOL

[gate1975mlm]

WoW this sure looks like a tv to wait for. :)

[Zankou]

This baby finally looks like The One that we've all been waiting for.

[OreoJoe]

From TWICE (This Week in Consumer Electronics) magazine

The high-end 81D LCD TV series, which ships in July at prices to be announced later, employs LED backlighting in four screen sizes. Models will include the 57W-inch LN-T5781D, the 52W-inch LN-T5281D, the 46W-inch LN-T4681D, and the 40W-inch LN-T4081D. Each is said to produce contrast levels of 50,000:1 and produce 105 percent wide color gamut. All will also offer 1920-by-1080p screen resolution, new Super Clear Super Patterned Vertical Alignment (SPVA) panels, WiseLink with Bluetooth wireless connection technology and three HDMI inputs.

The OCAP interactive cable-card system, previously reported as a new feature in the series, has been withdrawn, a company spokesman said.

[boostfrenzy]

so like $5000 to start then? lol

[irkuck]

I wonder if LEDBL with Dimming is potentially not creating new types of artefacts. I would like to test those sets with "end of a movie" type material, scrolling white letters on black background. Most of the display would be then dimmed completely but letters would need to be fully lit. In effect it might be that there will be visible non-perfect blacks around letters.

Another observation is that Sony and Samsung use the same panels. But only Sony is showing 70" display with dimmed LEDBL and an 82" prototype. Samsung is targeting such displays only for professional market. It looks like they split the market to avoid competition on higher shelves. This allows Sony to charge 33 k$ for the 70 incher.

[007craft]

Sizes - 40,46,52,57 inches
1080p
120Hz
LED BLU
Contrast - 100 000:1
Local Dimming
HDMI 1.3 (3 ports)
Color Gamut - 105% NTSC
MSRPs - unknown
Availability - July 2007

One comparison showed how the LED backlit set, even working at 60 hz, was able to show motion as clear as a conventional set running at 120 hz.

Im confused, are these sets 120hz or not? No article seems to mention if they are while the last one quoted says its 60hz and yet you claim them to be 120. So which is it?

[vtms]

Im confused, are these sets 120hz or not? No article seems to mention if they are while the last one quoted says its 60hz and yet you claim them to be 120. So which is it?
http://www.engadget.com/2007/01/07/live-coverage-from-samsungs-ces-press-conference/
Samsung is aping Toshiba's 120Hz response time tech to reduce blurring on LCD (or did Toshiba copy Samsung? Too close to call). Samsung is also adding LED Backlight Scanning.

[007craft]

well if it truly is 120hz and has all those other features, then im in heaven. I cant wait to get this dream tv of mine. I will pay whatever the cost.

BTW, how come some sites say 50000:1 contrast ratio and other sites say 100000:1? I want to get either the 40 or 46" screen and would like to know which is the contrast ratio.

[necrolop]

The one on display at CES was 60hz, the 81 series that will be released, will be 120hz. I am very worried about lighting artifacts, depending on the resolution of the LED array. The example of white text on a black background is a good one. The effect could be a white halo glowing around each word.

[smaybee]

Well at least in the picture at the top of this thread the black areas next to the very bright/white area don't seem to exhibit any halos. I sounds like you observed this set in person at CES, did you think you saw any of these effects? I hope not, I have high hopes that this might finally be the HD LCD Set I will settle on.

[vtms]

The one on display at CES was 60hz, the 81 series that will be released, will be 120hz.
Okay, so that explains the 60Hz/120Hz confusion. Thanks.

I am very worried about lighting artifacts, depending on the resolution of the LED array. The example of white text on a black background is a good one. The effect could be a white halo glowing around each word.
There's little doubt in my mind that Samsung licensed "local dimming" technology from Brightside which owns all the patents for backlight modulation. If I'm right, then this article (http://www.bit-tech.net/hardware/2005/10/03/brightside_hdr_edr/1) should serve as a nice explanation of how this technology works and what we might expect. I don't think Samsung will be using 1400 LEDs in their backlights, but still, even a fraction of that number should produce stunning results. We'll have to wait and see. So far, things are looking good.

[KZ]

Having recently purchased a 720p DLP front projector, I wasn't even planning to buy a flatscreen TV, but this is making me reconsider. I don't own a TV today so the justification for one will be that much easier.

[Tango Charlie]

Anyone know if it will support 1:1 pixel mapping? <crosses fingers>

[Eriol_TCE]

Anyone know if it will support 1:1 pixel mapping? <crosses fingers>
#1 question for me as well after the fiasco with the last TVs. The only reason I'm NOT getting one is the overscan.

[007craft]

how bad is overscan that everyone talks about on the samsung sets? I set the sony tv at the store to be full pixel and then viewed it placed right next to the samsung 1080p tv. I could see a tiny bit of overscan on the samsung, losing like a half inch of the picture, but It really didnt bother me that much. I dont know whay people complain about it? I would rather lose that really tiny ammount of tv then deal with banding and cloud issues on other sets. Samsung all the way. Although of course I do hope they allow 1:1 pixel mapping.

[bigsid05]

I think the complaint is that there is no 1:1 pixel mapping option on the older models, making it a less than ideal HTPC monitor.

[necrolop]

Given the type of people who would buy this, 1:1 pm would be a huge oversight. What im wondering is if this will be the replacement of he 95/96 series, or will this be considered a new level, thus have higher MSRP.

I did see this TV, and was very impressed. BUT, The display was on the open floor, not a dark room, and was next to a conventional LCD, but model unknown, and what level was the backlight of the one next to it set? I also didnt look close enough and wasnt thinking about looking for a halo affect.

[007craft]

Im pretty sure this would be a higher msrp. I believe the 65F series (same tv basically except without the backlight and bluetooth) will be the replacment model for the 95/96 series. I cant see this costing more then $400 extra ontop of the 65f series tho, and Im willing to spend a little more for a better quality television. Then again, this is all new tech, and they could verywell charge an extra $1000 for the 81 series. (lets hope not)

[lipcrkr]

The one on display at CES was 60hz, the 81 series that will be released, will be 120hz. I am very worried about lighting artifacts, depending on the resolution of the LED array. The example of white text on a black background is a good one. The effect could be a white halo glowing around each word.

I'm worried about the dimming technique. This could resemble the previous generation Panasonic plasmas in which floating blacks became the result. The display would automatically adjust the CR making normal viewing very distracting and annoying. Dimming sounds like a compromise to achieve those CR numbers.

[wallstreet123456]

I am waiting to see this set in person. Hope it is as good as people have said.

[OreoJoe]

We may see in the USA the technology from the European product.

Information from Samsung about MCFI
http://product.samsung.com/semi/ssi_summit_2006/downloads/7_berkeley_ssi_summit_press_2006_11_15.pdf

Samsung announced the release of a 40" LCD TV with high powered LED Backlight technology, which received Europe's prestigious "Innovation Award" from the EISA (European Image and Sound Association) for its superb features including LED light source, 146% wide colour gamut and industry leading contrast ratio (10,000:1).
http://www.samsung.com/PressCenter/PressRelease/PressRelease.asp?seq=20060901_0000284318

1st LCD at 100 Hz: the end of afterglow: Testing the Samsung LE4073BD
http://www.behardware.com/articles/641-1/1rst-lcd-at-100-hz-the-death-of-afterglow.html

[irkuck]

We may see in the USA the technology from the European product.
Samsung announced the release of a 40" LCD TV with high powered LED Backlight technology, which received Europe's prestigious "Innovation Award" from the EISA (European Image and Sound Association) for its superb features including LED light source, 146% wide colour gamut and industry leading contrast ratio (10,000:1).


This is 1366x768 set with 2160 LEDs in BL.
The set was reviewed in detail (and in German) here:

http://www.areadvd.de/hardware/2006/Samsung_LE-40M91B_01.shtml

There are many interesting observations regarding LEDBL in this review. The set has dimming which is contributing to spectacular contrast in daylight. But in darkness situation is different, what they note is that black levels are not very good and display is not getting completely black even when displaying black picture.

This sounds like dimming on this set is not the same as in the CES set since the CR is rated at 'only' 1:10 000.

[necrolop]

dimming vs local dimming.

[OreoJoe]

This is 1366x768 set with 2160 LEDs in BL.
The set was reviewed in detail (and in German) here:

http://www.areadvd.de/hardware/2006/Samsung_LE-40M91B_01.shtml

There are many interesting observations regarding LEDBL in this review. The set has dimming which is contributing to spectacular contrast in daylight. But in darkness situation is different, what they note is that black levels are not very good and display is not getting completely black even when displaying black picture.

This sounds like dimming on this set is not the same as in the CES set since the CR is rated at 'only' 1:10 000.
Interesting find. This model would not receive an Innovation Award with its unacceptable performance.

[UUronl]

This likely is -not- the same LED backlighting used in the EU market panel. That was simply a LED backlight.

This new local dimming sounds very much like the Brightside technology, and if you read the article referenced in this and another thread you might notice that 2006-2007 is the timeframe that the LED technology should "catch up". Previously, the amount of flux required from the LEDs required gobs of power and generated a ton of heat. The original Brightside 37" unit had to be liquid cooled as a result and cost $50,000. Haitz's law, is referenced in the article and is kind of like Moore's law for LEDs. The flux will double, and the power required will be cut in half over a period of time. We've reached the time when this should have happened relative to the original Brightside display, so the timing of this set is about right. The article also spoke about how Brightside was aggressively pursuing licensing agreements will all major manufacturers. I'm hoping that Samsung "bit" and that this is the Brightside technology - or some offshoot of that IP.

It is interesting to note that these new LEDs must be much brighter (newer) since Samsung wasn't able to match the brightness levels at 1080p in the first-gen of LED LCD. It was only a 768p device. This newly announced device is 1080p and as we all know, denser matrices mean lower light output given the same backlight intensity.

[vtms]

This likely is -not- the same LED backlighting used in the EU market panel. That was simply a LED backlight.
Yes. Samsung first put its plain LED backlit 40-inch set on European market and now they plan to release 4 new models in US that not only extend the color gamut thanks to LED light, but also drastically increase the contrast thanks to local dimming.

This new local dimming sounds very much like the Brightside technology, and if you read the article referenced in this and another thread you might notice that 2006-2007 is the timeframe that the LED technology should "catch up".
Exactly. If one reads the referenced article, it should be apparent that many things about Brightside set are consistent with what we already know about Samsung's 81 series. This is why I strongly suspect Samsung licensed the technology from Brightside. Also, one of the "Asian manufacturers" could be LG which appears to have licensed the same technology as well. (Brightside wanted to license their technology to as many manufacturers as possible). I was quite surprised to learn LG.Phillips plans to release its own locally dimmed set at 1Million:1 contrast ratio (http://www.engadgethd.com/2007/01/19/lg-philips-readying-led-based-lcd-hdtvs/) in Q2 of this year. That set alone probably deserves its own thread. Sharp has been showing its own 1Million:1 prototype for two years implying this technology was years away from reaching the market. It looks like Samsung and LG have figured out a way to bring this innovation to market early (perhaps because they use different technology than Sharp). Here's a pic of that LG.Phillips' set:http://www.blogsmithmedia.com/www.engadgethd.com/media/2007/01/1-19-07-lgphilipsledlcd.jpg

Haitz's law, is referenced in the article and is kind of like Moore's law for LEDs.
When that article was written (Oct 2005) LED's had efficacies around 30lm/W. A year later the efficacies have grown to around 100lm/W and the pace of this growth seems to accelerate still. What this means, of course, is that power consumption will not be a problem for locally dimmed sets. The manufacturers will be able to increase resolution of LED backlight without worrying about power, cooling or fans. They will also be able to increase the brightness of these sets well beyond 500cd/m2. And all of it before color-filterless technology shows up in LCDs which will further diminish power consumption levels of LCDs. And speaking of LED backlight, here's how locally dimmed backlight looks like:
http://blog.hometheatermag.com/cedia2006/planar%20led%20lcd.jpg
http://blog.hometheatermag.com/cedia2006/091506planarlcd/
Planar showed off a prototype LCD panel that is the coolest thing I’ve seen so far at the show. It’s a normal LCD panel with 800 individual LED backlights that are on an active matrix back plane. What that means is that each LED is individually addressable depending on the video signal. Want a section of the screen to be dark? Dim the backlight in that area. The result is a fantastic legitimate contrast ratio, and actual blacks (cause the light is off). The picture above is just what the backlight is doing with the LCD “off.” It’s at least a year away from a real product, but it looks amazing.
And here's how a locally dimmed set (in this case from Planar which, incidentally, looks just like Brightside set with Planar logo on it) looks in action vs. a conventional lcd monitor:
http://forum.hometheatermag.com/photopost/data/504/Planar_LED_LCD_Prototype_LEFT_2.jpg
http://forum.hometheatermag.com/photopost/data/504/Planar_LED_LCD_Prototype_LEFT_3.jpg
(Obviously when viewed on regular monitor, black and white levels of any high-contrast set will appear crushed.)

[necrolop]

Good post.

That planar looks like a rebadged Brightside. What Id like to know is, that picture of the stars on the screen, what the backlight looks like on it, as it would seem to me that there would be no way to illuminate those stars without killing the black levels of the space between them.

[vtms]

What Id like to know is, that picture of the stars on the screen, what the backlight looks like on it, as it would seem to me that there would be no way to illuminate those stars without killing the black levels of the space between them.
The star is obviously much smaller than an individual LED so it would seem impossible to turn on that LED and still end up with a small point of light surrounded by black area. In this case the algorithm turns that LED behind the star on anyway but the trick is that, simultaneously, it commands liquid crystals corresponding to pixels around the star to block the light so that only few pixels allow light to pass through at the screen location where the star appears while all pixels around the star block the light. The result is you see a bright star surrounded by black space. Obviously, the crystals around the star won't block the light completely so there will always be a hint of "halo" around the star, but, in reality, that halo would be there anyway even if the pixels perfectly blocked the light around the star (that is if resolution of backlight was equal to pixel resolution) because our eyes perceive a halo around a bright spot surrounded by black area anyway. The result is that the picture appears completely natural. It's actually quite brilliant algorithm.

This should explain why resolution of backlight doesn't have to go up to pixel resolution to achieve the same realistic PQ. In OLEDs each pixel illuminates itself, but in locally dimmed sets the same effect could be achieved with the kind of algorithm described above.

[necrolop]

But that is a simulated Halo, not a true one as would be caused by HDR.

I love the concept of this, but I just have a huge number of worries on the actual execution of it. Ideally you would have a OLED backlight of 1920x1080. Let my eyes be the one to add halos, not the backlight. There is something the set could do to counter the halo affect, but at the cost of over all blacklevel. Making the LCD black around the star doesnt help, cause there will be leakage around the star, and further away the LCD will still be black, but no leakage as the LED is off. You cant make some pixels black, then somehow make the ones around the star blacker than black. BUT, you could call on all "black" pixels to actually be grey, then have the "blacks" over illuminated areas be actual black, balancing them. But ofcourse this defeats the whole idea haha.

The resolution is a big question too. Some seem to think that it could be as few as 300 LEDs in the array, where as the Brightside model uses 1400. I would like to see the same or more for the Samsung. I would imagine well have to wait a few months for more information to come out. :(

Do you know where to find some information on the LG/Phillips model?

[vtms]

The idea is that the light leakage from a single fully illuminated pixel on a LED LCD would look indistinguishable from bloom caused by a fully illuminated OLED pixel. In other words, the natural bloom on locally dimmed LED LCD would "mask" (superimpose onto) the light leakage so that the image would look "correct." Obviously, we will have to see these sets in person to test the theory but right now I'm not as worried about this as much as you are. I'm much more concerned about availability and MSRPs at this point.

There's no doubt it would be more beneficial for manufacturers to increase the resolutions of LED BLUs because that would further decrease power consumption levels but what I'm wondering about is the minimum required BLU resolution beyond which no perceivable gain in PQ could be achieved. Are 300 LEDs enough? Seems a bit low.

[GTVic]

but the trick is that, simultaneously, it commands liquid crystals corresponding to pixels around the star to block the lightI'm not sure what you are saying here. If you have a white pixel next to a black pixel the lcd crystal for the white pixel is transparent while the crystal for the black pixel is opaque. This is the way LCD has always worked. I must be misunderstanding what you are trying to say?

I think the only trick is the fact that the eye would see the blooming anyway so there is no point in increasing the number of LEDs.

This should explain why resolution of backlight doesn't have to go up to pixel resolution to achieve the same realistic PQFor absolute perfection it would have to go beyond the pixel resolution. 3x beyond, one LED for each red/green/blue sub-pixel. Luckily there is no requirement given our eyesight limitations (as you said).

[vtms]

Do you know where to find some information on the LG/Phillips model?
I know they showed it at last year's SID so it's definitely real. It also uses the same local dimming technology. Robert Heron mentioned it in an episode of DL.TV (among other cool technologies like Laser TV and Brightside) last June which you can watch here (it's 18 minutes in) (http://zdpub.vo.llnwd.net/o2/dltv/episode68/dl.tv.068.mov)

If these displays show up in Q2 2007 that would be unbelievable, regardless of their MSRPs. Honestly, I was expecting these locally dimmed sets to appear late in 2008 at the earliest.

[vtms]

I think the only trick is the fact that the eye would see the blooming anyway so there is no point in increasing the number of LEDs.
Yes, that's trick I was trying to point out. Obviously, liquid crystals in conventional LCDs and LED LCDs work the same. :)

For absolute perfection it would have to go beyond the pixel resolution. 3x beyond, one LED for each red/green/blue sub-pixel. Luckily there is no requirement given our eyesight limitations (as you said).
Right.

[necrolop]

Yea I was suprised to see the Samsung at CES, though when I walked in I was hoping Id see it, actually thought Id see it at the Sony booth not the Samsung.

Theoretically the natural bloom may mask the artificial bloom, but I still am wary, hopefully youre right.

[GTVic]

I have decided to hold off on buying a Sony until summer at least - my current concerns are:

1. Cloudiness issue

From what I have read the problem is more prevalent in panels manufactured most recently and Sony hopes to fix it with a firmware patch which may only "solve" the problem by reducing the brightness. This is a guess but most people believe it is a physical problem (nothing software can properly fix).

Will the 81 series feature the same panel using dimmable LEDs to mask the problem. You may say that if you can't see the clouds then why complain. But the fact remains that some panels have significant clouds and some do not. This points to a problem with consistency in the manufacture and tells me I can't be guaranteed the highest quality picture. It may be just the luck of the draw as to the quality of panel that comes in the box.

2. Proper Adjustments

Most LCDs seem to require a great deal of "expert" adjustment to get the best possible picture. Will Sony be addressing this issue with the 81 series.

3. New LED technology

Will the new sets consume more power and generate more heat because of the large number of LEDs? LED technology is improving all the time so perhaps it would be a good idea to wait for the 2nd generation of this technology. Will they be using enough LEDs that the artificial blooming will be masked by the natural blooming due to our eyesight. They may choose to reduce costs rather than provide the optimum number of LEDs.

[MaXPL]

oh wow. i guess theres little reason to wait for SED if this technology is soon to be available to consumers.

was planning an HDTV purchase this coming spring, but i guess i'll wait til fall for prices on this set to drop.

[Zankou]

I have decided to hold off on buying a Sony until summer at least - my current concerns are:

1. Cloudiness issue

From what I have read the problem is more prevalent in panels manufactured most recently and Sony hopes to fix it with a firmware patch which may only "solve" the problem by reducing the brightness. This is a guess but most people believe it is a physical problem (nothing software can properly fix).

Will the 81 series feature the same panel using dimmable LEDs to mask the problem. You may say that if you can't see the clouds then why complain. But the fact remains that some panels have significant clouds and some do not. This points to a problem with consistency in the manufacture and tells me I can't be guaranteed the highest quality picture. It may be just the luck of the draw as to the quality of panel that comes in the box.

2. Proper Adjustments

Most LCDs seem to require a great deal of "expert" adjustment to get the best possible picture. Will Sony be addressing this issue with the 81 series.

3. New LED technology

Will the new sets consume more power and generate more heat because of the large number of LEDs? LED technology is improving all the time so perhaps it would be a good idea to wait for the 2nd generation of this technology. Will they be using enough LEDs that the artificial blooming will be masked by the natural blooming due to our eyesight. They may choose to reduce costs rather than provide the optimum number of LEDs.

I would be astounded if Sony did anything to address problems with the 81 series.

[007craft]

I have decided to hold off on buying a Sony until summer at least - my current concerns are:

1. Cloudiness issue

From what I have read the problem is more prevalent in panels manufactured most recently and Sony hopes to fix it with a firmware patch which may only "solve" the problem by reducing the brightness. This is a guess but most people believe it is a physical problem (nothing software can properly fix).

Will the 81 series feature the same panel using dimmable LEDs to mask the problem. You may say that if you can't see the clouds then why complain. But the fact remains that some panels have significant clouds and some do not. This points to a problem with consistency in the manufacture and tells me I can't be guaranteed the highest quality picture. It may be just the luck of the draw as to the quality of panel that comes in the box.

2. Proper Adjustments

Most LCDs seem to require a great deal of "expert" adjustment to get the best possible picture. Will Sony be addressing this issue with the 81 series.

3. New LED technology

Will the new sets consume more power and generate more heat because of the large number of LEDs? LED technology is improving all the time so perhaps it would be a good idea to wait for the 2nd generation of this technology. Will they be using enough LEDs that the artificial blooming will be masked by the natural blooming due to our eyesight. They may choose to reduce costs rather than provide the optimum number of LEDs.

LOL this post made my day. At first I thought he just mistyped samsung for sony, then I read about how he hears about the cloudy issue with sony and hopes they fix the 81 series LOL. FYI, Sony and Samsung are different companies :p

[irkuck]

Ideally you would have a OLED backlight of 1920x1080.


OLED BL of display rez does not make sense, why use the LCD then? :D


Let my eyes be the one to add halos, not the backlight. There is something the set could do to counter the halo affect, but at the cost of over all blacklevel. Making the LCD black around the star doesnt help, cause there will be leakage around the star, and further away the LCD will still be black, but no leakage as the LED is off. You cant make some pixels black, then somehow make the ones around the star blacker than black. BUT, you could call on all "black" pixels to actually be grey, then have the "blacks" over illuminated areas be actual black, balancing them. But ofcourse this defeats the whole idea haha.


There is inherent masking of CR by human eye so the halo effect might be very effectively masked. The problem here is how much the halo might be visible for very critical observers, those guys who can tell the difference between 1: 10 000 and 1:20 000 CR difference in dark room. :D


The resolution is a big question too. Some seem to think that it could be as few as 300 LEDs in the array, where as the Brightside model uses 1400. I would like to see the same or more for the Samsung. I would imagine well have to wait a few months for more information to come out. :(


Resolution is NOT the question as you think. Small number of LEDs is used only in small displays in side backlighting. In big displays, backlighting has to be over the display area and the number of LEDs is staggering. Samsung has one LED BL model on sale in Europe. it is 40" with 1366x768 rez and has 2160 LEDs. This LCD has been extensively reviewed in German here

http://www.areadvd.de/hardware/2006/Samsung_LE-40M91B_01.shtml

They noticed certain problems with backlighting: uniformity, color reproduction at lower light levels, black level, and rare artefacts from LED dimming. These problems were overall small but the argument for using LED was not convincing enough when comparing to similar model without LED.

While the LED BL demonstrated at CES seems to be much improved, it will require detailed critical evaluation when new sets come for sale.

[klawrence]

LOL this post made my day. At first I thought he just mistyped samsung for sony, then I read about how he hears about the cloudy issue with sony and hopes they fix the 81 series LOL. FYI, Sony and Samsung are different companies :p

I think you misunderstood him -- perhaps he meant does the Samsung 81 series use the same "Panel" as the cloudy Sony's but just use the local dimming to hide the problem?

[necrolop]

OLED BL of display rez does not make sense, why use the LCD then? :D




It makes perfect sense. An OLED TV needs 3 subpixels per pixel, Thus must he 3 times the resolution of a simple 1920x1080 OLED backlight. Also, it could use White LEDs. The current problems with OLEDs is inconsistent and short lifespans. A single colored white OLED wouldnt have those issues. Having a Light filter over an OLED would make good sense. Though I agree we probably wont see a TV like that.

[GTVic]

LOL this post made my day. At first I thought he just mistyped samsung for sony, then I read about how he hears about the cloudy issue with sony and hopes they fix the 81 series LOL. FYI, Sony and Samsung are different companies :p
Samsung makes the 1080 panels for Sony. The cloud problem affects both brands. Think first, type later...

[GTVic]

It makes perfect sense. An OLED TV needs 3 subpixels per pixel, Thus must he 3 times the resolution of a simple 1920x1080 OLED backlight. Also, it could use White LEDs. The current problems with OLEDs is inconsistent and short lifespans. A single colored white OLED wouldnt have those issues. Having a Light filter over an OLED would make good sense. Though I agree we probably wont see a TV like that.

Some confusion here. I'm not sure with who so I'll just give my understanding of OLED technology as it relates to this thread. If you know this then please ignore.

Many people are anticipating an OLED TV as an alternative to LCD. Much thinner, no backlight, low power, perfect black. Still a ways away if it ever comes out. Using white OLEDs as a backlight for an LCD TV is a whole different subject.

For those who are unfamiliar: LCDs work by blocking/filtering a backlight. Sometimes the backlight is uneven and sometimes it shines through when it shouldn't.

As far as I know this 81 series will feature 1000s of LED backlights which can be dimmed or turned off individually where needed. I suppose it is possible that white OLED (organic LEDs) could be used for this purpose but I don't think the technology is there yet. These LEDs are just "standard" white LEDs.

I think the Sony 70" that was just announced uses three LEDs (red,green,blue) in place of one white LED. This is another variation on the LED backlight technology.

From my info Samsung and Sony sets are using the same panel (made by Samsung) but the backlighting technology and electronics will differ between the two.

[necrolop]

Indeed, but a white OLED is more stable of a device than tricolor one. The problem with these LED backlit displays is that it wont be 1000s of LEDs, it could be as low as 300, which would be worrisome.

[GTVic]

Indeed, but a white OLED is more stable of a device than tricolor one. The problem with these LED backlit displays is that it wont be 1000s of LEDs, it could be as low as 300, which would be worrisome.
There are some advantages that three LEDs (red,green and blue) would provide. The white LEDs produce a broad spectrum of light which includes a lot of useless frequencies that could degrade the image. The LCD panel only wants to pass through pure red, pure blue and pure green light. So by only providing those frequencies you remove unneccessary backlight.

Think of a LCD projector onto a white screen. You can never get true black unless the room is pitch black. The ambient light will always reflect off the white screen. This is off topic but apparently Sony is developing a black screen which only reflects pure red, pure green and pure blue light. So the RGB projector light will be reflected but the ambient light is mostly absorbed. Haven't heard any new developments on that front for a couple of years though.

[irkuck]

It makes perfect sense. An OLED TV needs 3 subpixels per pixel, Thus must he 3 times the resolution of a simple 1920x1080 OLED backlight. Also, it could use White LEDs. The current problems with OLEDs is inconsistent and short lifespans. A single colored white OLED wouldnt have those issues. Having a Light filter over an OLED would make good sense.

One problem of color rendering by current LCD
is that backlight is white and color is selected by
a filter. Filters are not ideal and colors selected are not pure White OLED would have the same problem.

Solution pursued to solve this problem is to use
tricolor LEDs and indeed color from such LCDs
are reportedly getting very close to plasma.

[007craft]

Samsung makes the 1080 panels for Sony. The cloud problem affects both brands. Think first, type later...

Exactly. So how could sony possibly fix any problems on the samsung 81 series panels when they are made by samsung? Go re-read your original post.

And this thread needs a bump. Any news on a price? I would want to know a set release date and price for march when the 65f series comes out. Cause if these things are coming in september or later or they cost double of the 65 series, then ill just forget about it and pick-up a nice 65f tv.

[GTVic]

So how could sony possibly fix any problems on the samsung 81 series panels when they are made by samsung? Go re-read your original post.By working with Samsung to resolve the issue, by changing assembly/shipping procedures, by upgrading to newer technology (presumably produced by Samsung in a newer plant), using an improved backlight system, etc.

Like I said, think first and then maybe there is no need to make fun of other posts...

[westa6969]

One problem of color rendering by current LCD
is that backlight is white and color is selected by
a filter. Filters are not ideal and colors selected are not pure White OLED would have the same problem.

Solution pursued to solve this problem is to use
tricolor LEDs and indeed color from such LCDs
are reportedly getting very close to plasma.
I challenge you on this statement - the Samsung LED LCD Color Gamut exceeds ANY PLASMA presently on the market in fact 146% Color Gamut on the 40" European LE40M91 Model. :cool:

http://neasia.nikkeibp.com/mag_content/images/20050228141345/Picture%202.jpg

Article from 2005 which has now been surpassed - they are using RGB LED to combine with White Light I believe.
http://neasia.nikkeibp.com/neasia/000503

[irkuck]

I challenge you on this statement - the Samsung LED LCD Color Gamut exceeds ANY PLASMA presently on the market in fact 146% Color Gamut on the 40" European LE40M91 Model. :cool:


Your challenge is due to my imprecision, not the facts. I did not have WIDTH of the gamut in mind but PERCEIVED color quality.

Fact is that LED Color Gamut is very wide and exceeds plasma. Displays with Deep Color supporting HDMI 1.3 are it seems based on LED BL.
BTW, there are newest CCFL LCDs from Sharp using 5 wavelengths which may be able to match LEDs.

Speaking about LCD and PDP color comparison I had in mind perceived color quality. There is agreement that top-end plasmas have unrivalled colors. These colors are characterized by terms like warm, natural, plastic vs. LCD colors which are said to be colder, monitor-like, two dimensional. These are subjective characterizations so they do not correspond to measurable properties.

One can speculate that the reason why LCD was constantly judged lower in such color characterizations is due to precision color of components generation. In plasma each basic color is generated by its own source subpixel whose color emission characteristics is independently and precisely selected. In the present LCDs basic colors are extracted from white backlight by color filters. The white light is a mixture and color filters are not ideal, the resulting basic colors can not be as precisely controlled. LED BL might significant step forward in this respect: basic colors are generated separately and filtering of them can be more precise.

[vtms]

http://aving.net/usa/news/default.asp?mode=read&c_num=35006&C_Code=09&mn_name=news
http://image.aving.net/img/2007/02/01/20070201110742763.jpg
http://image.aving.net/img/2007/02/01/200702011107427801.jpg

[007craft]

By working with Samsung to resolve the issue, by changing assembly/shipping procedures, by upgrading to newer technology (presumably produced by Samsung in a newer plant), using an improved backlight system, etc.

Like I said, think first and then maybe there is no need to make fun of other posts...

omg your still on about sony working to make samsung products better. I cant believe you seriously thought that (and came up with a defenese on why it could happen)

On the recent post, I read about those monitors online. Looks nice. I really love samsung tech

[necrolop]

We now know how many LEDs are in the array for the non dimming model, 2160. That a good number, hopefully the Local dimming model uses the same number.

[smaybee]

The power usage is nice too 120 watts or less for a 40" seems pretty good. By comparison a Sharp LC-37D40U consumes 186 watts.

[bluescreen]

Hopefully it's just the pictures, but the panel with local dimming seems too dark with crushed blacks.

[necrolop]

Hopefully it's just the pictures, but the panel with local dimming seems too dark with crushed blacks.


It because is a High Dynamic Range Display. A, the camera cannot properly capture the contrast ratio, B, a jpeg cannot properly store the contrast ratio. C, your Computer monitor cannot properly display this contrast ratio.

So what happens is all the whites that are brighter than normal whites, get crushed, all the shades of dark grey get crushed. This effect is not present when looking at the display in person.

[wallstreet123456]

I hope Costco will sell these when they become available.

[kyeo138]

I hope Costco will sell these when they become available.
x2! As an owner of a banding D62u purchased at Costco I'm hoping to compare this set w/the new Sharp D92U's

[bearfun]

SONY AND SAMSUNG HAVE A JOINT VENTURE IN LCD,THEY ARE MADE AT THE SAMSUNG PLANT FOR BOTH COMPANYS AND USE THE SAME LCD SCREEN,only some internal components are different for each other

[ptran]

omg your still on about sony working to make samsung products better. I cant believe you seriously thought that (and came up with a defenese on why it could happen)

Your IAP (ignorance*arrogance product) is through the roof! Ever heard of S-LCD, the Sony, Samsung joint venture that makes LCD panels for both companies?

Phat

[ptran]

We now know how many LEDs are in the array for the non dimming model, 2160. That a good number, hopefully the Local dimming model uses the same number.

From the brightness, size, power consumption and current efficiency of LEDs, we can start estimating the number of LEDs. Anybody want to break out their calculator? :)

[westa6969]

Your IAP (ignorance*arrogance product) is through the roof! Ever heard of S-LCD, the Sony, Samsung joint venture that makes LCD panels for both companies?

Phat
Absolutely correct - many that have never studied the partnership and it's history make false assumptions on this "Joint" partnership assuming that Sony is somehow helping Samsung. They both benefit mutually but it was Sony that sought the relationship with Samsung so as to make money again as Sony was losing huge amounts of money and Samsung was at the the opposite extreme making huge profits and ready manufacturing capacity that Sony lacked on a World Market. As Americans we often see with ltd vision and Sony is not the Dominant player in the world market and they are not number one in Asia as they usually can dominate in the US - I believe Sharp will sell over 7 million LCD TV's this year and goals of over 10 million within the next two years. Sony gave up that market during it's infancy and are catching up and trying to find more capacity as they are now succeeding very well in LCD despite the trash talk that proliferates on this forum.

I like both Sony and Samsung but too many folks make assumptions that Samsung is the weak partner when in fact Samsung profit margins dwarfs Sony "PROFITS" in fact they were reported huge losses = No obvious profit.

Samsung is one of the quickest innovators in CE products and having to compete in LCD with Samsung forces them to rotate product lines faster as Sony's history has been sloooow and few new releases compared to Samsung and others - they are now forced into the leapfrog CE process to continue profits as they originally sat on the sidelines watching Sharp commit everything to LCD and become one of the dominant players in LCD world market. Nothing like competition and we are the beneficiaries.

They've both benefitted and yes they share in over 5,000 patents which excludes DNie for Samsung and I think it's the DRC that Sony excludes. Samsung has improved dramatically with their plasma and lcd's since the "S" series and I'd expect the "T" to leapfrog yet again and I wouldn't expect anything less (other than price ;) with Sony). There are rumors and a lawsuit pending from Pioneer Plasma that suspects there could be some piracy of their PDP technology by Samsung - don't know if there's truth but their PDP's did dramatically improve from the "R" to the "S" - at least they are setting the bar high and in the right place if they hijacked a little PDP enhancement tech - I know I'd choose Pioneer and Fujitsu if I were to hijack. ;)

My interest is the Samsung 70" LCD (and the 65" D93 Sharp) which it appears they are letting Sony steal the show with theirs temporarily and very little press on it since last summer but I know I sure the hell cannot even consider the Sony without having won a Lotto. I do notice the 57" Samsung LCD is gradually dropping to near half it's MSRP of $10K July 2006 and I suspect it'll become half what it was just as they've done with it's 63" PDP has become a half it's original MSRP IMO and research. :)

[irkuck]

My interest is the Samsung 70" LCD (and the 65" D93 Sharp) which it appears they are letting Sony steal the show with theirs temporarily and very little press on it since last summer

Samsung, it seems, positions the 70 incher for professional apps, Sony is moving with it into consumer market. Sony justifies exorbitant price
by packing every imaginable technology into it, especially LED BL and HDMI 1.3.

Sharp 65" incher will be so much cheaper than Sony that there is no PQ difference which would justify buying Sony.

On the other hand, if Samsung will bring to the market 70 incher in the same price range as Sharp and without the technology overhead of Sony, that would be interesting battle.

On paper, Sharp panel has much better CR (3000:1 vs. 1300:1) and it has backlight lamps with 5 wavelengths. That may favor it against Samsung at might be the reason why Samsung-Sony do not want to go into direct competition with Sharp in this range. At least now, story will be different when their 8 Gen manu lines will start moving later this year

[necrolop]

We should be talking about the local dimmed LED sets. The Sony-Samsung alliance really isnt realivent to this except when asking what panel theylle be using, which obviously will be an S-PVA. XBR Clouding really isnt realivent either.


On paper, Sharp panel has much better CR (3000:1 vs. 1300:1) and it has backlight lamps with 5 wavelengths.

Comparing ratios given by companies in specs really isnt relivent since they udge numbers. Also dynamic vs non dynamic ratios.

[vtms]

http://www.engadgethd.com/2007/02/05/lg-philips-demos-47-inch-led-backlit-lcd-with-1-000-000/
http://aving.net/usa/news/default.asp?mode=read&c_num=35258&C_Code=09&SP_Num=0
http://image.aving.net/img/2007/02/01/20070201144824077.jpg
http://image.aving.net/img/2007/02/01/200702011448241071.jpg

[tyanni]

Its funny - people were obsessed with the Sharp D92U line to the point that they were pulling there hair out in anticipation. Now that they seem to be somewhat less than stellar, one would think people would move on to the next real exciting possibility - the 81 Series. I, for one, have told the wife I will not be purchasing a LCD until June/July because I want to see the 81 Series, 65 Series, and also the Toshiba\JVC options.

Tim

[vtms]

Its funny - people were obsessed with the Sharp D92U line to the point that they were pulling there hair out in anticipation. Now that they seem to be somewhat less than stellar, one would think people would move on to the next real exciting possibility - the 81 Series. I, for one, have told the wife I will not be purchasing a LCD until June/July because I want to see the 81 Series, 65 Series, and also the Toshiba\JVC options.
I don't get it either but I refuse to care. Even assuming all these companies post fake contrast ratios, 81s (and LG's Mega-Contrast set) should be at least a class above D92s (even if they didn't suffer from banding), possibly as good as SED, especially considering the fact that the most important factor determining PQ is not resolution but contrast. Local dimming is by far the most important advancement in display technology this year but I guess not many people realize this yet.

[MonkeyGoD]

If this does use some of the Brightside patents, we could be in for an expensive set.

When I went to E3 in 2004, they had the Brightside 37 LCD set(not sure if it was 720p or 1080i/p at the time). Talking to the representative, they told me that the set cost $50,000 dollars and by next year it will be $25,000 (2005) and would likely be halve per year. which means the same tv would cost about 12,500 in 2006 and this year it would be ~5,750. They also told me that they would be licensing this technology to many other big brands and that the prices would vary depending on what the big names charged, so it is hard to predict the prices right now.

THe Brightside used over 1,000 LED bulbs that is able to turn completely off and on, and also 50%. The ability to turn the LED lighting completely off is what gives it its super high contrast ratio. But it also used as much power as 2 fullsize fridges which is very impractical (over 1000 watts/ 14amps).

It looks like most of these LEDs sets nowadays are able to do it in 200watts and less. Not sure if that is because of the refinement in technology or if theyre using less number of LEDs.

[Daniel Tonks]

Has anyone actually seen any concrete information for when these are actually going to be released? Besides for the exhibit at CES, they don't really seem to exist even on paper...

I'm hoping to get a 57" set this summer... and so far I'm eying this, the Toshiba LX177 and the LG LY3D.

[tyanni]

See posts below - I was completely off on the total number of LEDs...

[sampo-666]

Power consumption for :

40" samsung with LBLU 120W (2160 leds)
40" samsung with LBLU & dynamic dimming less than 120W

maximum consumption is same, so dynamic dimming should use the same number of leds.

[vtms]

Power consumption for :
40" samsung with LBLU 120W (2160 leds)
40" samsung with LBLU & dynamic dimming less than 120W

2160 LEDs would be 760 LEDs more than even the 37-inch Brightside display. Do we really know it's 2160? Can anyone provide the source that would verify this number?

[smaybee]

Follow the link in post #55 of this thread. It's clearly mentioned in the display feature list in the photo.
This number may be a little misleading if they are using 3 leds (one each of red/green/blue) to generate each discrete backlight point. i.e. it would be equivalent to 2160/3 white leds.

[JohnsonBrewer]

Greetings,

Having spent the last 6 months on the D92 anticipation thread, I've started looking at alternatives since the very early reports of D92's contain banding, like their D62 brethren. Major disappointment. Pictures of the 81 series look very good, specs sound far-out, so I'll be checking in this thread on a regular basis.

JB

PS--Can someone quickly give a comparison to the 81's vs Toshiba X177?

[DTR00GT]

Its funny - people were obsessed with the Sharp D92U line to the point that they were pulling there hair out in anticipation. Now that they seem to be somewhat less than stellar, one would think people would move on to the next real exciting possibility - the 81 Series. I, for one, have told the wife I will not be purchasing a LCD until June/July because I want to see the 81 Series, 65 Series, and also the Toshiba\JVC options.

Tim

Not quite sure why you say that, as I for one an here exactly for that reason....the 92U's in a word sux! :mad:

Perhaps they are taking it hard (and hard to let go) as those TV's are available now, and IF they were OK, lots of people could be watching a decent set right now. Its a shame the 81's are not due till summer :(

[TV Casualty]

Its funny - people were obsessed with the Sharp D92U line to the point that they were pulling there hair out in anticipation. Now that they seem to be somewhat less than stellar, one would think people would move on to the next real exciting possibility - the 81 Series. I, for one, have told the wife I will not be purchasing a LCD until June/July because I want to see the 81 Series, 65 Series, and also the Toshiba\JVC options.

Tim
Same. The Sharp 92s look like they may be another flawed product like the 62s were, and between the 62, Sony XBR2, and Samsung 95D I bought in my last round of "in-home trials," the Samsung was definitely the favorite, hampered only by overscan and lack of PQ control on some of the inputs. If they can get 1:1 in there and then just throw in some "expected" overall improvements, this may be the one.

[tyanni]

Not quite sure why you say that, as I for one an here exactly for that reason....the 92U's in a word sux! :mad:


I just meant that the Sharp thread has been a really long thread for sometime, well before the D92s were even released. People just seem slow to eagerly await and discuss the 81 series - perhaps its because they are so far out right now. I was surprised that this thread sat at 2 pages for as long as it did, but now we seem to have the discussion going :)

JohnsonBrewer - see 2007 CES Toshiba Info from CNET (http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-12760_7-9672518-5.html) for early specs from CES 2007...

[vtms]

Follow the link in post #55 of this thread. It's clearly mentioned in the display feature list in the photo.
This number may be a little misleading if they are using 3 leds (one each of red/green/blue) to generate each discrete backlight point. i.e. it would be equivalent to 2160/3 white leds.
Funny. You pointed me to my own post. :) Yes, I missed that number but it refers to 40-incher without local dimming. I wonder if they put the same number of LEDs in the one with local dimming.

[smaybee]

I assumed so since they listed the power consumption for the set with dimming as <120 Watts depending on contents. Since the non-dimmed set was 120 Watts, I make the inference that the dimmed set has the same number of leds but will use less power when the contents allow dimming of some of the leds.

[vtms]

I assumed so since they listed the power consumption for the set with dimming as <120 Watts depending on contents. Since the non-dimmed set was 120 Watts, I make the inference that the dimmed set has the same number of leds but will use less power when the contents allow dimming of some of the leds.It's certainly a good guess. On the other hand, I'm not sure how they could achieve =<120W power consumption with 2160 LEDs. I guess we'll have to wait for more official info.

[mike123abc]

Samsung was showing off LED backlit monitors with 100,000:1 CR http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=6008

Only up to 40" and 1366x768 but did have local dimming of LEDs.

[smaybee]

This paper gives some insight possibly, I found a pointer to it over in the
LCD TVs: Technology Advancements Thread

http://www2.dupont.com/Displays/en_US/assets/downloads/pdf/techbulletins/SIDLEDPaper.pdf

At any rate one of its statements is:

"LED devices for backlighting can be roughly divided into two
categories: standard flux and high flux. Standard flux LEDs are
available in a variety of standard leaded and surface mount
configurations with power dissipations on the order of 60 -100mW.
These devices can be used in a large quantity to generate outputs
in excess of several hundred lumens. "

2160 leds x 60mW = ~129 Watts, which is certainly in the ballpark. If there has been any improvement in LED efficiency since the paper came out in Jan 2006 then 120 Watts certainly seems reasonable/possible for a 2160 LED backlight TV.

[vtms]

2160 leds x 60mW = ~129 Watts, which is certainly in the ballpark. If there has been any improvement in LED efficiency since the paper came out in Jan 2006 then 120 Watts certainly seems reasonable/possible for a 2160 LED backlight TV.Yes, things are making more sense now. I must say the more I learn about this set the more I like it. 2160 is even more LEDs than Brightside display. I thought that Samsung's 1st generation local dimming set would be something like "Brightside-lite" with only few hundred LEDs but apparently these things will come fully loaded and ready for action right from the start (minus the 4000cd/m2 brightness but who needs that much anyway). Depending on the software, they could probably do infinite contrast on this display. It would really be cool if, in the future, you could download new software and have an increased native contrast after the update - no need to upgrade to a better set.

Anyway, my calculations tell me that the resolution of the LED matrix for the 40-inch panel should be 60x36 or 72x30 or 54x40. Take your pick.

Update: After reading this paper (http://www.cree.com/products/pdf/Backlighting_Revolution_White_Paper.pdf) I'm convinced Samsung is using RGB LEDs which means the 40-incher has 720 white points of light instead of 2160. Still, not bad, but 2nd generation backlights will probably be much better. If they're using RGB LEDs already, it is reasonable to expect the emergence of color filterless LCDs next year which should further improve the specs of this kind of display. It almost makes me want to wait a year or more for these sets to arrive.

[007craft]

I just hope they announce a price by march. When the 65f series comes out in a couple months, I know im gonna be so tempted to buy. If they announce the 81 to be $1000+ more then the 65f, then ill just skip the 81 and the wait. But if the price is competitively different (around $500), then I will hold out for the 81.

[smaybee]

Well, if we go by what they did last year, they announced their new TV's in late May i.e. the 96 series. It seems reasonable to assume they may do something similar this year. Of course, perhaps one of the other manufacturers set to offer LED backlit LCD TV's may announce earlier and force their hand. At any rate these forthcoming LED backlit TV's look like they will potentially have several advantages including lower power consumption, Higher contrast ratios and deeper blacks. Naturally, they will also have some new set of problems for us to all complain about;-)

[MonkeyGoD]

Sharp was showing off LED backlit monitors with 100,000:1 CR http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=6008

Only up to 40" and 1366x768 but did have local dimming of LEDs.

The article says Samsung were showing off monitors. You got my hopes up for a Sharp LED monitor :mad:

[mike123abc]

The article says Samsung were showing off monitors. You got my hopes up for a Sharp LED monitor :mad:

Ack, I guess I have been reading the sharp threads too much, they tend to have a ton of posts... going to fix that typo.

[eneyman]

woah, these 81 series look to be a huge step up in quality over the current generation. I think I will definitely wait for these and the 65F series to be released instead of getting something now with issues. Does anyone know if Sony will be releasing anything new this spring to go along with the new samsungs?

[mark_1080p]

2160 leds x 60mW = ~129 Watts, which is certainly in the ballpark. If there has been any improvement in LED efficiency since the paper came out in Jan 2006 then 120 Watts certainly seems reasonable/possible for a 2160 LED backlight TV.This is an amazing change in efficiency, I was thinking that LED backlighting would be a power hog like the early Qualia model IIRC but low power consumption and local dimming really sounds exciting. Great times ahead!!

One does wonder though if it will leave artifacts. For example, in a Star Wars scene black space has bright points of starlight sprinkled throughout. Local dimming would either have to leave it alone or dim the stars along with the background.

[mike123abc]

One does wonder though if it will leave artifacts. For example, in a Star Wars scene black space has bright points of starlight sprinkled throughout. Local dimming would either have to leave it alone or dim the stars along with the background.

Well it should not be any worse than a non dynamic back light. Where I think it would help the most (where I find it distracting) is letter boxing. I hate it when light is leaking out of the letterbox stripes. In a dark room I want the letterbox masking not to be visible. I think ones eyes will cover most the other problem by not being able to see dark grey instead of black when it right next to a bright object it should still appear black.

[obbound348]

So I here that the 81 series is coming out in July. That is a long wait but i think it will be worth it, assuming the price isnt to crazy. Does anyone have any new news on the prices yet? Do we know about the lag/response times on the 81 series?

I have been getting ready to buy my new LCD for about a month and now i have to wait until July!!! Stupid fantastic new technology!!!

[gate1975mlm]

So I here that the 81 series is coming out in July. That is a long wait but i think it will be worth it, assuming the price isnt to crazy. Does anyone have any new news on the prices yet? Do we know about the lag/response times on the 81 series?

I have been getting ready to buy my new LCD for about a month and now i have to wait until July!!! Stupid fantastic new technology!!!


lag/response should not be a problem anymore on these new LED sets.

I hope these LED sets in 46" will be under $4,000

[tyanni]

lag/response should not be a problem anymore on these new LED sets.

I hope these LED sets in 46" will be under $4,000

And I hope they will be under $3000 :)

[DTR00GT]

.......I have been getting ready to buy my new LCD for about a month and now i have to wait until July!!! Stupid fantastic new technology!!!


If only I was in your shoes.......I've been trying to get a decent 52" since June 2006

July 2007 is like a ten year sentence for me......LOL

[wtr_wkr]

Don't they (Sammy/Sony) usually use their own, in house VPs? Could they do a half ass 120Hz VP instead of using Micronas' truD HD (FRC 94xyH)? For example, JVC is doing their own 120Hz.

Now for the obvious - not all VPs are created equal.

[mike123abc]

Like all LCDs there will be a lot to find out when the set is released. What type of processing do they use, do they have obvious defects like banding/clouding/light leaking? Is there 1:1 pixel mapping available? The list goes on and on.

Reading these forums one has the general fear that no set will ever be perfect... Someone will find something wrong with it.

[Jeff Flowerday]

Will this new technology = no clouding? What are the theories on this?

[DSET]

Does anyone have an educated guess when can we expect another press release?

if July is release date? how many months before that can we expect to get the MSRPs?

how many months before release did they announce the MSRP for the 96 series last year?

[obbound348]

I read that the 65 series will be out in March and the 81 series will be out in July,
Now if that is true, then why havent we gotten the MSRP for the 65 series yet?

I am thinking (sadly) that the 81's will be well ove 10,000. I think the 65 will be alot less because it is an upgrade to the previous series, but the 81 is the "newest" technology and i think it will be out of the reach of the average joe like me.

[tyanni]

I read that the 65 series will be out in March and the 81 series will be out in July,
Now if that is true, then why havent we gotten the MSRP for the 65 series yet?

I am thinking (sadly) that the 81's will be well ove 10,000. I think the 65 will be alot less because it is an upgrade to the previous series, but the 81 is the "newest" technology and i think it will be out of the reach of the average joe like me.

Except, I am not sure that many people will pay 10,000 for an LCD. I know there are people here who get expensive screens, but not that expensive. I don't think they will sell enough to make it worthwhile if they cost that much.

[necrolop]

I disagree. Its apparent that the 81 series is a higher line than any currently out, but its also apparent that it is still a consumer line. I would put the 46" under 5k MSRP, for larger sizes I cant say since they are not in the commodity class yet.

Last year, they announced the 96 series, but what happened is he 95 series came out in its place, and was only announced I beleive in April or May the they are also released a few weeks early in June. When the ones come out in March I would expect to see some more news on the 81s. I wouldnt expect prices until May.

These companies do not like to give too much information out on new lines much before they come out. As it can make people decide to wait it out rather than purchasing a new TV now.

On a side note, these sets should be called 'Local Dimming sets" Not "LED sets", the fact that they use LEDs does not accurately describe why they are better than other previous technologies, as other LED backlit displays without local dimming will see none of the advantages that this display will have.

Does anyone have information on advantages of Triluminous LED, and the possibility of Locally Dimmed Triluminous LED arrays?

[DSET]

[QUOTE=necrolop]
These companies do not like to give too much information out on new lines much before they come out. As it can make people decide to wait it out rather than purchasing a new TV now.
QUOTE]


Thats exactly it for me
I either want to go all out on a groundbreaking 40" Tv or spend as little as possible on a 37 1080p probably the GP1U in march april
if the price for a 40inch LED is more than 4k USD thats a little much for me
if the MSRP is 3500 USD or lower the chances are the price in Stores like Best Buy will be around 3k
if the 42D92u drops dramatically in price because of banding I could care less I'll buy that
with regards to LG's and Toshibas upcoming TVs, are there any speculation threads for them?

[Webb]

[QUOTE=necrolop]
These companies do not like to give too much information out on new lines much before they come out. As it can make people decide to wait it out rather than purchasing a new TV now.
QUOTE]


Thats exactly it for me
I either want to go all out on a groundbreaking 40" Tv or spend as little as possible on a 37 1080p probably the GP1U in march april
if the price for a 40inch LED is more than 4k USD thats a little much for me
if the MSRP is 3500 USD or lower the chances are the price in Stores like Best Buy will be around 3k
if the 42D92u drops dramatically in price because of banding I could care less I'll buy that
with regards to LG's and Toshibas upcoming TVs, are there any speculation threads for them?

In terms of specs the toshiba looks great on paper with the confirmed X.Y color, hdmi 1.3 etc. However I think its still based on CCFL so it will not have the mega locally dimmed based contrast these Sammy's may have.


However I think a 10,12,14 bit panel like the toshiba will only benefit if the source itself uses that correct? so it may not be practical.

[elg2001]

If the 81 is less than $10k I would be shocked. No one else offers LED backlighting in LCD TVs. Sony has already published their price for their 70" model using the 81's technology, and that's over $30,000! If you think this will be anywhere CLOSE to current LCD prices, you're crazy. 2008 should be a totally different story because everyone will be in on LED then.

[007craft]

thats what im waiting to hear, price. Cause if the price is more then 20% of the 65 series, i will not buy and just pick up a 65, but if prie is less then that, i will hold out to the 81. The last thing I want to do is hold out all the way until july only to find out its way to expensive, and then go buy my 65f series which I could of bought months ago. I hope a price is revealed soon.

[vtms]

The only other locally dimmed set on the horizon that will compete with Samsung 81s is LG.Phillips' 47-inch one and it was announced to show up in Q2 so we should know its price soon. My guess is the price of 46-inch 81s will be similar to that of LG.Phillips' set. We'll see.

[necrolop]

If the 81 is less than $10k I would be shocked. No one else offers LED backlighting in LCD TVs. Sony has already published their price for their 70" model using the 81's technology, and that's over $30,000! If you think this will be anywhere CLOSE to current LCD prices, you're crazy. 2008 should be a totally different story because everyone will be in on LED then.


Sonys do not use this Technology, they are LED sets NOT Local Dimmed Sets. You also cant use pricing on 70" as a ruler, as they are not commodites. And Sony is indeed using conventional LED backlighting on its Regular consumer lines 40" and up starting in summer.

People also cannot say that the 81 series will be expensive cause the Briteside LED Local Dimmed LCD is $20k, that doesnt count since it is not a consumer product, it is a show peice. The 81 series is a Consumer product. My geuss is the MSRP of the 40" would be 4k or less.


And please stop comparing these to Conventional LED backlit displays, The LEDs are not the advancement here, the dimming is.

[wtr_wkr]

... advancement here, the dimming...
Bingo

[wallstreet123456]

what is the difference between the 65 and 81 series?

[obbound348]

The 65 series is the upgraded version of the last LCD (forget the model sorry). The 65 have I believe a 12000:1 ratio and 3 HDMI ports. But it is the same technology as its predecessor.

The 81 series is the new LED Backlight local dimming sets. Not an upgrade. Supposed to have ratio of 50000:1 and should get rid of the lag response that you find on some LCD's.

The 65's are supposed to come out in March and the 81's in July. These are not definite; they are only what I have read.

There are other differences but these are the basics. Anyone who disagrees with my numbers, because I may be wrong, please correct. Also add whatever differences you think of

[wallstreet123456]

A problem I have with my LCD is that during dark/night scenes it is had to watch since all the blacks look the same. Does the 65 fix this since the contrast is 12,000:1?

[necrolop]

maybe, but the big improvement will be he 81, it has HDR High Dynamic Range, which will allow light blooming and very deep black, thus increasing the range of greys, so detail should pop.

[vtms]

There's is still some confusion about where 81s are located on the display technology spectrum so let me provide a simple illustration. When SED displays were scheduled to be released few years ago, this is how manufacturers of other technologies responded to this threat:

Plasma - Pioneer's "super-plasma."
LCD - local dimming LED LCDs.

[wtfer]

A problem I have with my LCD is that during dark/night scenes it is had to watch since all the blacks look the same. Does the 65 fix this since the contrast is 12,000:1?

well it improves it, but not fixes it.

IMHO Samsung latest LCD line had pretty good, but not great black levels. With the contrast doubled with the LNTxx65 line, the black levels should look much deeper.

[johni]

What will the expected life of LED's be? CCFL's advertise 60k hours.

[smaybee]

What will the expected life of LED's be? CCFL's advertise 60k hours.

LED backlites have been touted as having a 100,000 hour life.

[Gris]

And better still, only use about 1/2 the power!

[obbound348]

Has anyone heard anything on the expected release dates for the 65 and 81 series that is different then we have already heard (meaning march and july respectivly)? What about any prices?

[spincut]

well considering the older midranged samsungs were 63 or something the 65 numbering makes sense (and actually seems to be very differentiated from the better ones, unlike the current lines).

but why 81? isnt the current top samsung in north america the 96d? why did they go down in numbers? this may confuse people at stores. Anyway, i may sell my XBR2 and get this in, wha,t the 1st of july (wanted to get this in the spring so i will already be impatient so 1st of july is hopefully when it will come out right?!!?!)

[obbound348]

The 81 is a completly new technology for smasung so maybe thats why the numbers are different. The 65 are only an upgraded version. The last thing i heard about the 81 series was july. no price or actual confirmation on that though, just readings.

[mark_1080p]

Spincut - the numbers go down but the letters go forward (S to T series) :D:D
I guess you just run out of numbers.
Also "96" sounds better than "26" so maybe they like to start on the high side.

It's all marketing and bookkeeping.

[obbound348]

This si the newest news on the 65 series.

"Samsung LNT5265F is the latest LCD HDTV from Samsung. It is a 52-inch LCD HDTV with a full wide High Definition 1920×1080p high resolution, SRS Trusurround XT sound effect and there are 3 HDMI ports, a HDMI CEC, HDMI 1.3 and an USB 2.0 port. It will be launched worldwide in April this year."

[DSET]

This si the newest news on the 65 series.

"Samsung LNT5265F is the latest LCD HDTV from Samsung. It is a 52-inch LCD HDTV with a full wide High Definition 1920×1080p high resolution, SRS Trusurround XT sound effect and there are 3 HDMI ports, a HDMI CEC, HDMI 1.3 and an USB 2.0 port. It will be launched worldwide in April this year."

BOOO00oo'urns!!

One month delay on the 65 series = a probability of a 2months delay on the 81 series

If any Samsung rep is reading or anyone knows one, I will pay money just to know the price range of the 81 series in 40inch if any insider info was pm'd to me Id pay to hear it and not leak it

I’ve waited tooo long for a TV I need to know if this set is going to be affordable and is worth 3-4months after school is done
Which means I spend another summer without an HDTV and essentially another year because school will be starting and I'll have no time to enjoy it

[spincut]

that's no good, since i had originally hoped that something cool and new tv wise was coming out this spring (in samsungs case the 81's) so July is bad enough, i really hope that's still when they are coming!

[DaViet]

I can't wait for the those 81's to hit stores. I'm already drooling. I won't know what do with this Sharp d92 I just got. Ohhhh the long wait seems like forever.

[Raitzi]

I can't wait for the those 81's to hit stores. I'm already drooling. I won't know what do with this Sharp d92 I just got. Ohhhh the long wait seems like forever.

Same here. I will buy sammy or toshiba in june/july. Hopefully one of my alternatives is available by then,usually new pal models come later than ntsc. I am lucky that i did not buy the new(or old) sharp.

Toshiba Cinema Series(R) 2007 (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=782774&highlight=2007)

[DSET]

I say we all buy and return a tv within 30 days everymonth from a big chain store like Best Buy
untill the samsungs come out

[wtr_wkr]

I say we all buy and return a tv within 30 days everymonth from a big chain store like Best Buy
untill the samsungs come out
Good idea, that should drive them all out of business. Then all TVs will be cheaper because we can get them from CP, which takes no returns unless DOA. Or, other internet retailers that take them back but you pay the shipping.

Now where's my Costco discount book. I think I'll have goose for dinner.

[DSET]

Good idea,
. I think I'll have goose for dinner.


I agree thoose are good Ideas

[DaViet]

I say we all buy and return a tv within 30 days everymonth from a big chain store like Best Buy
untill the samsungs come out
That would be a back killer.

[spincut]

so the 81's arent delayed yet though? word still is early july for the 40" ones? wish there was a price as well.....

[wtr_wkr]

so the 81's arent delayed yet...early july....
I'm sure "july" was a joke when engineering first heard that. A bad joke since the boys are now being whipped.

Anyway, I have a $1 that says it's late.

And, we need some guinea pigs to sigh up for a TV from a new facility with new technology.

[spincut]

huh?

[elg2001]

will the 65 be built at the new 8th generation facility or only the 81?

[spincut]

will the 65 be built at the new 8th generation facility or only the 81?

there's a new facility? well that's good news, so that means they'll no longer be sharing the same facility as the sony tv's (and thus not the same possible problems).

[bluescreen]

That is an S-LCD (Sony/Samsung) facility.

http://www.samsung.com/PressCenter/PressRelease/PressRelease.asp?seq=20061102_0000298049

[spincut]

oh, so the same joint facility making the cloudy panels is also going to make the next gen samsung 81's? wasnt that moved to mexico?

[westa6969]

oh, so the same joint facility making the cloudy panels is also going to make the next gen samsung 81's? wasnt that moved to mexico?
The glass is not manufactured in Mexico - the sets are assembled in Mexico from the components parts built elsewhere in the world not Mexico. Mexico, especially the Baja Tech region has become a cost effective assembly and distribution point to North America - I believe over nine manufacturers are assembling flat panels in that region but I'm not aware of any glass building being done there - most is being done in different parts of Asia.

Mother Glass and other electronic parts is produced in the joint plant but assembly for N. America market takes place in Mexico or in the case of Europe may be Poland or Czech Republic. Sony and Samsung do not share all electronics especially the DNie for Samsung and the DRC Chips are excluded from the partnership - they do mutually share in up to 5,000 patents but they independently determine the build of each panels electronics and of course pricing which is obvious in the case of Sony.

In the case of some higher end products the complete process may be done in Japan or Korea. Example would be Sharp 57/65" are totally built and assembled and shipped from those regions - hence the higher costs. I would guess that $33K Sony is fully custom product done in Asia by previous Qualia skilled workers and I suspect Samsungs 70" version will be also unless economics of it's lower pricing make it also a Mexico assembled product.

[wldchld22]

just talked to my samsung rep, Best buy magnolias will likely get the led lcd's. Right now it's looking like 4th quarter!!!

also expect to pay a premium. he was pretty dejected telling me to expect about 1-1.5k premium on the technology. he did say it was amazing picture, the best they've ever seen/had at CES.

considering how well their led dlp went i can wait. i hate this. the d92 not having hdmi 1.3 killed my hopes of having a spring tv.

i think the answer will be what sony does in their new bravia's. i think at this point i've waited and hopefully they bring back twinview into flat panels.

i agree with most though, man it stinks buying a brand new technology out of a brand new plant. look at sharps woes with a proven tech in a brand new plant.

i've also always had a problem with samsung and how it handles motion.

[lipcrkr]

just talked to my samsung rep, Best buy magnolias will likely get the led lcd's. Right now it's looking like 4th quarter!!!

also expect to pay a premium. he was pretty dejected telling me to expect about 1-1.5k premium on the technology. he did say it was amazing picture, the best they've ever seen/had at CES.

considering how well their led dlp went i can wait. i hate this. the d92 not having hdmi 1.3 killed my hopes of having a spring tv.

i think the answer will be what sony does in their new bravia's. i think at this point i've waited and hopefully they bring back twinview into flat panels.

i agree with most though, man it stinks buying a brand new technology out of a brand new plant. look at sharps woes with a proven tech in a brand new plant.

i've also always had a problem with samsung and how it handles motion.

The Toshiba LX177 will have 3 HDMI 1.3, deep color, 120HZ, 12 bit processing, etc etc and due around June.
http://crave.cnet.com/8301-1_105-9672518-1.html

[foxdie]

I also talked to a Samsung rep, who was actually in charge of LCD's at CES. When I asked about the 81's release in July, they said don't expect it till Oct. Kind of reminds me of the 95/96 last season, and how Samsung changed its release date on its website and delayed it several times. They went on to say that the 81 will be VERY expensive. I wouldn't expect just a $1000 premium. Those who are hoping for a $500 premium, keep dreaming.

[westa6969]

The 57" Samsung debuted well ahead of it's smaller siblings at the end of June 2006 with the first owner getting one at Mag store in Rancho Mirage(Palm Springs area) who raved about it and then became widely distributed within 30 days. You still cannot find one in my area to actually view which is why I went with my Sharp 57", Id already owned two good Sharps so I went with the D90 but it's been a nightmare since the D62 and K2 plant debuted for many of those new owners.

I wouldn't be surprised if the 57" gets it debut sooner this year also but I'm not aware whether it will be an LED model or not or if they'll have two versions. The 70" Samsung would be my target but still no word on it - Sony is hogging the show with it's 70" panel for now. It's very odd that Samsung was the first to announce a 70" LCD last summer and yet they've been mum on it sort of sitting on the sidelines while Sony perhaps gets the R&D paid for with it's $33K model.

70" would be the sweet spot for me and the 57" Samsung feedback has never had these negative postings by owners and the only reason I didn't buy one is I couldn't commit $7K without auditioning it locally first. Some of the best feedback I've seen without becoming tainted were the 57" Samsung LCD. Perhaps Sony/Samsung agreed to an exclusive period on the 70"? :D

[Augestflex]

Well consider me in the wait as well.

Though I am hoping they are under 5k for the 40"

[foxdie]

Well consider me in the wait as well.

Though I am hoping they are under 5k for the 40"

I no longer think its gonna be less than 5k.

[DaViet]

I no longer think its gonna be less than 5k.
As long as it doesn't come with bands or clouds, I don't care about the price.

[Raitzi]

As long as it doesn't come with bands or clouds, I don't care about the price.

You got some high standards mate :)

[Free]

I started a thread HERE (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=809534) that asks what the best technology is for rejecting ambient light.

I am wondering if the experts here would comment on how this new technology would do, in a room with lots of sunlight coming in through the windows.

I would think that one important specification in mitigating the "wash out" factor of high ambient light would be the CD/m2. These sets are only 500CD/m2 which is about the same as plasma, so I am wondering if they would do any better in the room I have in mind??

[DaViet]

You got some high standards mate :)
If lesser brands could do it, why can't Samsung do it.I think that the basic standard here for us AVSers.

[Schwarzenegger]

meh, i was hoping for a reasonable price :(

[wldchld22]

The 57" Samsung debuted well ahead of it's smaller siblings at the end of June 2006 with the first owner getting one at Mag store in Rancho Mirage(Palm Springs area) who raved about it and then became widely distributed within 30 days. You still cannot find one in my area to actually view which is why I went with my Sharp 57", Id already owned two good Sharps so I went with the D90 but it's been a nightmare since the D62 and K2 plant debuted for many of those new owners.

70" would be the sweet spot for me and the 57" Samsung feedback has never had these negative postings by owners and the only reason I didn't buy one is I couldn't commit $7K without auditioning it locally first. Some of the best feedback I've seen without becoming tainted were the 57" Samsung LCD. Perhaps Sony/Samsung agreed to an exclusive period on the 70"? :D

the 70" sony is an lcos though which is through their venture with JVC.

remember that the 57" at magnolia did come out at 10k and before the other 1080p's. it's also from a different but very similiar family than the 95/96 models. i believe the model ends in a 97. along with the 47"

i went to look at the 57" back in the day and whatever it didnt' have in banding, cloudiness, it more than made for in motion pixelation, artifacts. samsungs always are promising and leave me frustrated to all heck!

81F will be quite pricey. i doubt the 40" will be more than 5k though.

i'm just surprised at the dates. there newer non led's samsungs slated for march, but 81f are so far off!

[elg2001]

if you think the LED backlit sammy's will NOT be EXPENSIVE AS HELL, you have another thing coming. This will be the rolls royce of TVs when it comes out. Expect a Rolls Royce price.

[mike123abc]

I would not be surprised to see a 50-100% premium in price over Samsung's panels in the next lower tier. I suspect the number would be closer to 50% since the price of LEDs has been dropping pretty fast over the last year. Still that could make a 46" 6k MSRP.

[smaybee]

Well, there will be other factors in play. Including competition from other manufacturers with LED backlight sets. And the fact that they will need to compete with the premium sets from the other major vendors. It may well be that they will remain price competitive with them. You will have to excuse me if I continue to hope that prices will be in the same range as top line Sony's for example.
Of course we will all find out at some point when Samsung actually announces these sets.

[carnivora]

I think this sounds like great tech. But I certainly want to see it in person. The thing that I'm concerned about, is not things like white letters on a black background with halos n such, but things like lines, creases or wrinkles in scenes where the object is lighter with dark detail. I'm afraid that it won't be any better than other LCD tech in these circumstances. Another example would be bright fish with dark spots or dry cracked lakebeds etc. If the dark spot is big enough it would benefit but if the detail is small there would be no advantage. Shadow detail could be phenomenal though.

[mark_1080p]

Thought I would post this here as well.

Local dimming should have the effect of

reducing problems such as clouding and flashlight Mura.

That is an exciting prospect, that this could serve to reduce (not eliminate) the imperfections of a panel. This bodes well for Sony/Samsung panels, will not help Sharp banding.

Is this old news, this is a potential breakthrough ...
Now this is what we really need, fix the crap coming out of the LCD factories.

[westa6969]

the 70" sony is an lcos though which is through their venture with JVC.

remember that the 57" at magnolia did come out at 10k and before the other 1080p's. it's also from a different but very similiar family than the 95/96 models. i believe the model ends in a 97. along with the 47"

i went to look at the 57" back in the day and whatever it didnt' have in banding, cloudiness, it more than made for in motion pixelation, artifacts. samsungs always are promising and leave me frustrated to all heck!

81F will be quite pricey. i doubt the 40" will be more than 5k though.

i'm just surprised at the dates. there newer non led's samsungs slated for march, but 81f are so far off!
The 70" Sony I'm referencing is not an LCOS - Get your facts and do your homework before contradicting someone, as I owned the SXRD also I sure the hell know the difference. The question is whether the Samsung 70" will carry similar specs or even be LED backlit.

From SonyStyle:

"The 70” KDL-70XBR3 is the largest screen size in the BRAVIA™ LCD line and pushes the limits of display technology with Full HD 1920x1080 resolution and amazing features such as 10-bit panel and picture processing, MotionFlow high-frame rate technology, Triluminos™ LED backlight, and x.v.Color. Available in an elegant piano black floating glass design, this remarkable television also includes 3 HDMI inputs, 2 component inputs and a PC input. BRAVIA Engine Pro with DRC-MFv2.5, Advanced Contrast Enhancer (ACE) and 178-degree viewing angles help to deliver a dynamic contrast ratio of 7000:1."

See it here: (NO LCOS has looks like this $33K MSRP beauty)

http://www.sonystyle.com/intershoproot/eCS/Store/en/imagesProducts/650x650/KDL46XBR3.jpg

[elg2001]

Overpriced. Typical Sony. If samsung released theirs at 20k that would be a good thing. Less time to drive the prices down to levels where a common consumer can buy one.

[TheaterChad]

Well, not to bring up mura, my samsung 19" computer monitor thats only 10 months old has some serious mura, I will take a few pics of it, looks just like what some have shown here before, now I can see the light.......... :eek:

[wldchld22]

The 70" Sony I'm referencing is not an LCOS - Get your facts and do your homework before contradicting someone, as I owned the SXRD also I sure the hell know the difference. The question is whether the Samsung 70" will carry similar specs or even be LED backlit.

[/IMG]

i own the 60" sxrd. easy easy big fella. i thought you meant the 70" lcos i didn't know you were referencing the 33k xbr3.

sony and samsung don't always release sister models (that share the same panel.) i have yet to see a sony 57" or 47".

sony just released some info on new lcds and microdisplays. no mention of led backlights or anything. of course the models mentioned are supposed to be out in the spring and are only successors to the 2500 line. i didn't see anything that would seem like a new xbr. they did mention an xbr4 which is a 720p 32" monitor. quite confusing to me.

as of now the samsung rep told me expect your led lineup to be the general run of sizes 40, 46, 52 to begin with. no plans for a 70" as of now. still q4 to ship.

now ur post says the 70" xbr3 has led backlights, but does it feature local dimming or whatever samsung/sony calls it?

[elg2001]

no local dimming

honestly, i think local dimming will have visual artifacts for the first few generations of its use. I feel safer with CCFL backlight at this point in time. LED is not a proven technology at all. At least not in a broad, mass-market sense.

[wldchld22]

no local dimming

honestly, i think local dimming will have visual artifacts for the first few generations of its use. I feel safer with CCFL backlight at this point in time. LED is not a proven technology at all. At least not in a broad, mass-market sense.

why do i get the feeling local dimming will end up like DLP. from gray blacks we will go to TOO black where there is no definition in a dark scene.

[carnivora]

why do i get the feeling local dimming will end up like DLP. from gray blacks we will go to TOO black where there is no definition in a dark scene.

Too black? If you are talking about Shadow detail I think that's where this tech holds the most promise.

[DaViet]

Is it here yet??????

[lipcrkr]

The 70" Sony I'm referencing is not an LCOS - Get your facts and do your homework before contradicting someone, as I owned the SXRD also I sure the hell know the difference. The question is whether the Samsung 70" will carry similar specs or even be LED backlit.

From SonyStyle:

"The 70” KDL-70XBR3 is the largest screen size in the BRAVIA™ LCD line and pushes the limits of display technology with Full HD 1920x1080 resolution and amazing features such as 10-bit panel and picture processing, MotionFlow high-frame rate technology, Triluminos™ LED backlight, and x.v.Color. Available in an elegant piano black floating glass design, this remarkable television also includes 3 HDMI inputs, 2 component inputs and a PC input. BRAVIA Engine Pro with DRC-MFv2.5, Advanced Contrast Enhancer (ACE) and 178-degree viewing angles help to deliver a dynamic contrast ratio of 7000:1."

See it here: (NO LCOS has looks like this $33K MSRP beauty)

http://www.sonystyle.com/intershoproot/eCS/Store/en/imagesProducts/650x650/KDL46XBR3.jpg

Westa, looks like the 70" still has clouding.

[Raitzi]

Westa, looks like the 70" still has clouding.
:D
Bad banding on lcd! (http://www.lightav.com/home/hannspree/27-5FZEBRA.jpg)

[obbound348]

The 65 series is on the samsing website!!!! here is what it says
about the 52"

LN-T5265F
52" 1080p HDTV w/Integrated ATSC Tuner

For those who are ready for the clearest, brightest LCD picture on the market today, Samsung presents the LN-T5265F. Full 1080p resolution is just the beginning: the color-saturated 52" picture boasts a 15000:1 dynamic contrast ratio, displaying rich blacks and capturing subtle nuances. A fast 8ms response time ensures smooth, lifelike motion. SRS TruSurround XT™ sound from hidden side speakers is enhanced by the premium audio sound of 2.2 channel dome speakers. Enjoy connectivity with all your other digital devices, with 3 HDMI ports and a full complement of inputs. And the handy HMDI-CEC feature lets you control all your CEC-enabled peripherals using just one remote.

Features Specifications

LN_T5265F

Panel Type: LCD

TV System: American NTSC Std Color

Channel Coverage: VHF VHF 2-13,
UHF 14-69
CATV 1-125 (up to 181 preselected channels)

Audio Power: 10W X 2

Power Requirements: AC 100~120 AC, 60Hz

Connections: HDMI (High Definition Multimedia Interface) 3
R/F in 1
Component (Y/Pb/Pr) in 2
S-Video input 2(1 side/1 rear)
A/V input 2(1 side/1 rear)
PC input 1
USB2.0 1
HDMI-CEC 1
Premium Audio 2.2 channel dome speakers 1
Headphone jack 1

Net Dimensions: Monitor with stand 43.5"(W) x 30.2"(H) x 12.8"(H)
Monitor without stand 52.2"(W) x 33.6"(H) x 12.6"(D)
Monitor with stand weight 74.7 Lbs.

Shipping Dimensions: 56.3"(W) x 37.2"(H) x 16.3"(H)

[Neijii]

Any price info?

[-EquinoX-]

how about the 32 inch series, any info on that?

[Scot Matheson]

The 65 series is on the samsing website!!!! here is what it says
about the 52"

LN-T5265F
52" 1080p HDTV w/Integrated ATSC Tuner

For those who are ready for the clearest, brightest LCD picture on the market today, Samsung presents the LN-T5265F. Full 1080p resolution is just the beginning: the color-saturated 52" picture boasts a 15000:1 dynamic contrast ratio, displaying rich blacks and capturing subtle nuances. A fast 8ms response time ensures smooth, lifelike motion. SRS TruSurround XT™ sound from hidden side speakers is enhanced by the premium audio sound of 2.2 channel dome speakers. Enjoy connectivity with all your other digital devices, with 3 HDMI ports and a full complement of inputs. And the handy HMDI-CEC feature lets you control all your CEC-enabled peripherals using just one remote.

Features Specifications

LN_T5265F

Panel Type: LCD

TV System: American NTSC Std Color

Channel Coverage: VHF VHF 2-13,
UHF 14-69
CATV 1-125 (up to 181 preselected channels)

Audio Power: 10W X 2

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