http://www.curtpalme.com/CES2007_page1.shtm

Enjoy! Flame suit on!

http://www.curtpalme.com/CES2007_page1.shtm

Enjoy! Flame suit on!

Suhweeeeeeet!

Good one Curt thanks. You too missed the elusive Onkyo Receiver that was loaded with goodies in the THX Neural booth, and HDMI booth, I have never seen a more advanced dsp processing suite in any receiver, neural surround claims to outperform DPL2 in recreating 5.1 discrete surround from any source, it had the audissey too. It has like 5 HDMI 1.3 ins and 2 outs, the unit does not have a model number.

If any one has a picture of this elusive piece, i'll give them $5.

Good one Curt thanks. You too missed the elusive Onkyo Receiver that was loaded with goodies in the THX Neural booth, and HDMI booth, I have never seen a more advanced dsp processing suite in any receiver, neural surround claims to outperform DPL2 in recreating 5.1 discrete surround from any source, it had the audissey too. It has like 5 HDMI 1.3 ins and 2 outs, the unit does not have a model number.

If any one has a picture of this elusive piece, i'll give them $5.

I think you are referring to the TX-NR900.

No this is the latest thing with not even a part number yet. It's in between the 804 and the giant card based unit in size. It has a new neural surround dsp engine that recreates discrete sounds from any source noit just xm neural. it has rs-232 audissey eq, 5 hdmi 1.3 ins 2 out. It is an awesomely featured receiver.

Well done, Curt, worth the wait. I enjoyed the radio show too :)

Thanks Curt.

Fantastic Coverage Curt!
I feel like I was there.

Excellent coverage Curt.

I too had the privilege of sitting through the "Tesla Theory" speaker cable demo. There were two others in the room who expressed wonder at the "expanded soundstage and better highs, etc., etc.". When they asked me, I said that if there were any difference, it was so subtle that a better controlled A-B test needed to be done. I made no pretense to be a great audiophile, even though my home audio equipment is among some of the best.

They appeared disgusted with my remarks, at which time my wife and I left while they were spouting more Tesla theory. I almost thought it was a joke and the other two were a part of the game.

Thanks for your good info.

Sid

Thanks Sid, what was the name of that company? PM me if you don't want it to be public.





I do...;)

Sid PM me as well or go public. These people need to be exposed for the frauds they are. It is just sick what these guys get away with. I for one am not shy about taking them on.

Thanks a lot Curt. :cool:

Sid PM me as well or go public. These people need to be exposed for the frauds they are. It is just sick what these guys get away with. I for one am not shy about taking them on.
I'm willing to go public on these people.
They are commonly known as Synergistic Research and their cables have been receiving high acclaim from reviewers and listeners alike for years. Their cables are up there with Audioquest, Nordost, Tara, Granite, and several others at the top of the cable game. Besides specific geometry and silver alloys they use an active shield that carries a 28 VDC field surrounding all their top cables. While I don't know about 0 capacitance I do know that the cables reduce RFI & EMI and create a much higher current field than Audioquest DBS can with their batteries.
I've heard this demo many times at several shows and IMHO they expand the soundstage in both depth and width and sweeten the sound when the active shield is turned on.
I think most members on this 20K forum would agree that cables do make a difference so why is this theory debunked. It would seem that a shield against outside interference of this strength is likely to do something positive, and the new Tesla Line is cheaper than their previous X2 Line. We seldom see reductions in cable costs as new improvements are developed. My ears tell me Synergistic is to be applauded for this advancement which is accompanied by a price reduction. Let the cable naysayers populate the lesser Forums. I think we know good cable makes a difference.

Well I did hear it in person and heard NO difference. I'm still a skeptic.

Their demo was flawed in so many ways it wasn't funny.

I'm not going to get into the whole cable argument. That's a topic for (yet another) thread.

I do agree with Curt's statement that the Synergistic demo was highly flawed. When I was by, they were running a delicate passage with no shielding, then stopped right before a bombastic passage and turned the shielding on and commented how much better the soundstaging was.

You don't run a demo that way... I walked out. I was there to hear the new Thiel's which sounded fantastic driven by the Bryston gear BTW.

Cheers,

I think we know good cable makes a difference.

watch the 'we' part. it's far from unanimous.

WE know that cable makes a difference. WE also know that tthere is lots of snake oil sales that convince people to buy things that do nothing. WE also know that the laws of physics are LAWS, they are not the general guidelines of physics. And if you claim to violate those laws, then there is a problem.

FYI: Bryston's response to my query as to why they'd share a booth with snake oil salesmen:

The show room was Theil's and they choose the cable company. I still consider exotic cables to be more marketing than science but we had no say in the other partners chosen.

FYI: Bryston's response to my query as to why they'd share a booth with snake oil salesmen:

The show room was Theil's and they choose the cable company. I still consider exotic cables to be more marketing than science but we had no say in the other partners chosen.

You are at CES. CES is a venue for the companies to convince you that their product IS the best and they will use any method to do so. Lying or strecthing the truth has always been a reliable form of marketing. I wouldn't expect too much facts from CES, just the ones I can make on my own.

I'm also sick of hearing marketing bs from firms hawking stupid cable, but that's the world we live in. People pay thousands to have Feng Shui specialists come into their homes to rearrange the furniture. It's actually kind of frightening to think of how much of our economy is produced by total bs.

great report! Thanks for all the pics!

People pay thousands to have Feng Shui specialists come into their homes to rearrange the furniture.

Ya know, you might be onto something. 5.1 with LCR and rear speakers? Bah!

Subwoofers? In the wrong location completely.

Perhaps someone familar with Feng Shui can recommend the proper layout for an A/V system so that it brings more melodious sounds to the room?

All 5 speakers in a straight line maybe? Two subwoofers to balance the room. The projector pointing at a 45 degree angle to the screeen?

Valhalla, I'd like a report by the morning!

If Feng shui is important to your raison d'etre, then buy a plasma with a silver frame, never a plasma with a black frame. The plasma isthe fire, you use meatl to reflect the fire around your space, never ever put water (black) on fire.

If Feng shui is important to your raison d'etre, then buy a plasma with a silver frame, never a plasma with a black frame. The plasma is the fire, you use metal to reflect the fire around your space, never ever put water (black) on fire.

This was from the Fengshui expert that visited Grove Plasma in 2002.

Now we are getting somewhere.
It is possible that Feng Shuii people know more about this than the demo salespeople(marketeers!)
I seem to remember Clark built an A/B/X comparator box that exposes all this nonsense.

I favor the day it all goes wireless with active speakers (digital amps) and you no longer need all the cables. No doubt when that happens with a quality system no one will be able to tell the diference in a blind test.

The cable guys need to get the "Money " while they can. Time is running out.

_______________
Chuck

I favor the day it all goes wireless with active speakers (digital amps) and you no longer need all the cables.
_______________
Chuck

We're pretty much there now. See the pix of the 1080i video via AC wiring on my CES report.

Regardless though, there's always some quality loss via wireless. If nothing else, interference from the zillions of transmitters out there as it is now anyways. Heck, even my Bluetooth refused to work on the CES show floor due to interference. I had to go outside after about 10 dropped calls...

Besides, we can't put all the qualified installers that can fish wires through finished homes, can we? There's a real art in that. Gawd knows I know, 'cause I can't do it...

:)

This discussion reminds me of a high-end cable demonstration I saw at CES a few years ago where they had 3 separate shielded conductors, which they said conducted low, medium and high frequency ranges separately. An engineer in the audience asked them if they considered 60 Hz to be in the low frequency range and they said yes. He then asked them if they were absolutely certain that the low frequency music would not be transmitted through either the medium or high frequency parts of the cable and they said yes. He then said, "OK, I'll just connect this high frequency part of your cable to the 60Hz wall plug and you put the other end on your tongue." As you would expect, they did not take his offer.

An interesting test of high end cables can be read here: http://www.avahifi.com/root/audio_basics/1990-02_wire_challenge.htm

After all this snake oil talk I really want to know what you guys use in your $20,000 + systems. Do you use Home Depot, Radio Shack, let me know. You are starting to sound like the infamous Julian Hersch from the old Stereo Review, if it can't be measured it's not true and all components that measure the same sound the same.

I've had many cables in my system for testing, power, analog interconnect, digital interconnect etc. I have done exstensive A/B and long term evaulation with many people participating and the panels blind opinion came up with with couple favorites. They however did agree there was a difference from one cable to another. I do think for example there is a sound difference between silver and copper all things being equal.

I do understand if you don't have the money to spend on cables it is human nature to say, it makes no difference. But in this forum I'm very suprised to hear all the snake oil talk. It seems it is based on principal not on evaulation.

Please check my system in my profile and you should hopefully see I have a rig that can tell a difference in cables and I'm glad myself and my panel can hear the difference because it makes everything sound better. BTW I've heard the Synergistic Research test at three different CES shows and I don't think it's fixed and I do think they have very good product that does make a difference with the active shielding application.

Cables tested: Nordost,Audioquest,JPS,Siltech,Kharma,Kimber,Cardas,ESP,Supr a,Harmonic Technology, PS Audio , Hovland,Shunyata, FIM, Cable Research Labs,Synergistic Research,Aural Symphonics,Custom Power Cord Company. Not including what I have heard at shows.

Good listening and enjoy the music

Don't derail this thread into another 'does it work' thread.

My point was that for the first time in my life I sat and WANTED to hear a difference at my first supposed A/B demo of high end cable. The demo was ridiculously flawed to me, they weren't comparing apples to apples, and I went as far as writing to Bryston asking why they'd associate with a company like that.

My ears are WIIIIIIIDE open, I just want someone to prove to me that there's a difference. Once I hear a difference, I'll jump on the 'high end cables sound better' bandwagon immediately.

I do think for example there is a sound difference between silver and copper all things being equal.




I wholeheartedly agree. Don't shoot the messenger.

Well of course. Silver sounds more greyish, copper sounds more reddish.

No mike one sounded better than the other, cleaner, open, more dynamic, the copper sounded more muddied.

Uh-huh. And you know it was because of the different metal used, and not the different topology, resistance, capacitance, shielding, etc. No thanks.

Remember, Topanga said "all things being equal." Silver does have higher conductivity, which means for the same gauge you get lower resistance. Well, so what? Just use a slightly lower gauge of copper. Now all things are "equal" again.

Remember, Topanga said "all things being equal." Silver does have higher conductivity, which means for the same gauge you get lower resistance. Well, so what? Just use a slightly lower gauge of copper. Now all things are "equal" again.
Michael,

Exactly! If you need the lower resistance / higher conductivity; just use more copper.

Although I can think of one example of when that wasn't possible; the building of the
Calutrons at Oak Ridge as part of the Manhattan Project in World War II. Courtesy of
Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory:

http://www.lbl.gov/Science-Articles/Research-Review/Magazine/1981/81fepi2.html


Want of copper for the large coils to produce the magnetic fields prompted a solution possible
only in wartime: Groves drafted 14,700 tons of pure silver from a government vault for the
purpose.


Can you imagine 14,700 tons [ 14.7 kilotons ] of pure silver being withdrawn from the depository
at Fort Knox to be fashioned into wire? Kind of boggles the mind.

Well of course. Silver sounds more greyish, copper sounds more reddish.
Well, you see, that just shows that you are one of those wanna be guys. Everyone with a half decent pair of ears knows silver makes the sound brighter and copper makes it warmer.

I'll go for gold plated cables. They make everything sound richer.

I'll go for gold plated cables. They make everything sound richer.
Gold plated does not work well. You have the partial richness of gold (it is only plated), but electrons travel slower because they are richer (thus heavier) and the sound becomes slightly incoherent because of the faster lighter electrons in the silver (or copper) cable. IOWs, you'll get better depth, but with some weird echo like reverberation (I don't expect you can hear it since you can't hear cable capacitance!). Although all gold would be really rich, it mates very poorly with tubes; however, it is the only thing that will make a bryston sound ok (otherwise it is to sterile).

That would then explain the buildup I see on gold cables after a while. The electronc rush through the copper/silver, but then start piling up on the gold as the gold slows it down.

Heavy use of the cable speeds up the buildup.

Thanks for clarifying.

That would then explain the buildup I see on gold cables after a while. The electronc rush through the copper/silver, but then start piling up on the gold as the gold slows it down.

Heavy use of the cable speeds up the buildup.

Thanks for clarifying.
Not a problem, happy to help. But thinking about your video system, I'm thinking all gold is the best for you. Not only will it allow you to sync better with your CRT's (them not being digital means they are slower as well), better it will also darken the sound better in the dark segments of the film (since the sound is richer). You should give a try sometime, I'm pretty sure you will hear an improvement there.

Nice job! Great to see that my old Kenwood reciever was at CES!!! wow:D

WOW... I just have to say Wow I can't really believe that in this forum 20,000 + some of you can't tell the deference between copper an silver ... they should move this thread to home theater in a box... and to say that cables make no deference would you drive a 2007 Ferrari with 13 inch tires???

Shame on you....

Gold plated does not work well. You have the partial richness of gold (it is only plated), but electrons travel slower because they are richer (thus heavier) and the sound becomes slightly incoherent because of the faster lighter electrons in the silver (or copper) cable. IOWs, you'll get better depth, but with some weird echo like reverberation (I don't expect you can hear it since you can't hear cable capacitance!). Although all gold would be really rich, it mates very poorly with tubes; however, it is the only thing that will make a bryston sound ok (otherwise it is to sterile).

god i hope this a joke trying to Channel ValhallaPC

WOW... I just have to say Wow I can't really believe that in this forum 20,000 + some of you can't tell the deference between copper an silver ... they should move this thread to home theater in a box... and to say that cables make no deference would you drive a 2007 Ferrari with 13 inch tires???

Shame on you....

I'm not sure if this is legit either...

god i hope this a joke trying to Channel ValhallaPC

Ironically, my first thought after reading that post was "I know someone who will be able "to hear" cable capacitance!" :rolleyes:

I'll go for gold plated cables. They make everything sound richer.

You can always melt them down for a nice set of uppers and lowers.

http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/509/golds172.jpg

You can always melt them down for a nice set of uppers and lowers.

http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/509/golds172.jpg

Looks like he has a mouth full of solder (although it is apparently very good work, no dry joints that I can see!) When I had braces I couldn't wait to get all the metal work out of my mouth :)

Now if only the braces had been gold and not stainless steel....

Originally Posted by lexicon_mike
I can't really believe that in this forum 20,000 + some of you can't tell the deference between copper an silverYou can't either.

ferarri with 13" wheels vs whatever kickass tires it comes with can be objectively and subjectively proven as a really bad idea.

Cable debate has NEVER been proven. you may like your system with the cables and you may feel it adds, but if it cannot be proven (and it NEVER has) then it is only your feeling about your system. And for the record, nobody is debating that. (ok, some are, but it is always a dumb debate on both sides.)

You cannot make up new laws of physics to suit marketing materials!

Way to stick the knife in Michael.

Actually, what's funny is that most of the people who think like lexicon_mike does about cables would also be laughing at the brand of processor he apparently uses :)

Aren't the wheels on Ferrari's F1 car either 13 or 14" diameter? (depending on track/tyre conditions)


just curious.

Aren't the wheels on Ferrari's F1 car either 13 or 14" diameter? (depending on track/tyre conditions)


just curious.

Yes, they are 13", and usually made from magnesium. Hmmmm...magnesium cables?

Aren't the wheels on Ferrari's F1 car either 13 or 14" diameter? (depending on track/tyre conditions)


just curious.

I was wondering about this also. The only specific I could find (though I did not look very hard) under the F1 rules and regulations was that the entire wheel fitted with dry weather tyres must not exceed 660mm in diameter (that is 25.984251968503937 inches of the top of my head ;) )

I will post a link to the rules & regs page in the Ultra High Performance Race Car Forum. :)

Well, you can also use the max. brake size of 278mm as a guide for the inside diameter of the wheel.

I just thought it was funny that the highest performing Ferrari of 2007 will indeed use 13" wheels and tires.

Dan

ok so the comparison with the car was not the right one ...... My mistake

Here is a good explanation who somebody in this same forum replied (jim HTPC)

Anyone who has an electronic degree will tell you that all cables have the characteristics of a filter.

Different cables affect the way the electrons flow from cable to another cable. Whether it's filtering noise, and/or a difference in: resistance, conductivity, capacitance, and inductance.

When you are taught electronics. They use multi-meters and oscilloscope's. These instruments will show you the basic principles of electronic signals. What they don't show you is how the electrons travel along a conductor. And what happens when these conductors are influenced by outside factors (IE: Environmental noise). Also how the windings are physically placed makes a difference for inductance and capacitance.

I believe most would agree that shielding a cable is a good thing in a noisy environment. By accepting that statement you would be wrong; since an unshielded cable behaves differently from a shielded cable correct? Therefor 2 cables can be different and in this case would be audible if there was noise being picked up. Wires act as antennae's. In the medical field I ran into a situation where a local AM station caused terrible noise in the Doppler section of our ultrasound unit. I know because we utilized a spectrum analyzer and could hear the AM radio station at the same frequency where the noise showed up in the Doppler scale. How is that possible? Improper shielding. Once we isolated the small wire and changed it. Presto. No more interference.

Ohh.. and Michael Grant

Yes I can tell the difference between silver and copper cables

I'am sorry that you can't

Wow, lexicon_mike, you went on a nice rambling post about why cables can sound different, only none of it has anything whatsoever to do about the use of different metals for the conductor.

I'll say it again: if you build two cables with the same bulk resistance/capacitance/inductance, the same shielding, the same general topology, etc.---but one with silver and one with copper---they'll sound the same. Exactly so. To me and to you.

In fact, I am willing to bet $1K that you can't prove me wrong---because you can't even construct an experiment that properly does so. You'll whip out two cables and one of two things will happen:
--- (this is the one I think is likely) you won't hear any difference in a properly blinded test.
--- if you did, (and this would surprise me, but no matter), I'll promptly measure their bulk electrical characteristics and reveal clear differences that have nothing whatsoever to do with silver versus copper.
To save time we can do the second test first.

Look, full disclosure here. As people who have been here awhile know, I'm a pretty hardcore objectivist that believes that cables sound the same well before they measure the same. I try (though I might not always succeed) to avoid overstating the case and saying that all cables sound the same. Heck, cotton twine vs. Nordost Valhalla, no contest :)

But my biggest beef is not so much with the belief that cables sound different, but with the absolute rubbish, the fraudulent junk science, the total BS that people put forth to explain those differences. Someone somewhere down the line sold you some false story about the universal merit of silver and you bought it, hook line and sinker. Probably some crap about the underlying crystal structure and its effect on the brownian motion of electrons. Or maybe you have vastly overestimated the consequences of silver's higher bulk conductance.

What I do know is that at some point you heard some silver cables, they sounded better to you, and you incorrectly concluded that it was because of the silver.

Actually, what's funny is that most of the people who think like lexicon_mike does about cables would also be laughing at the brand of processor he apparently uses :)

Ouch!

Although I'd like to have my money back for all those cables I bought.

Ohh.. and Michael Grant

Yes I can tell the difference between silver and copper cables

I'am sorry that you can't

Just a little advice lexicon_mike. It's Dr. Michael Grant. A phd in electrical engineering from Stanford University. Maybe better to save face now. Check out the pages and pages and pages of previous threads on cables.

Well Jeff, thanks for that, but I don't tend to trot out my credentials in arguments like these---in part because I didn't spend my time in school posted in front of an oscilloscope measuring cables :) My work is in a different area. But I guess it does help explain why I take such an analytical view of this (for better or worse), and why the junk pseudoscience rankles me so much.

Although Dr. Morbius (PhD from MIT in Physics) would say the same things.

Silver has lower capacitance yes. Can you hear it... Very likely no. Otherwise somebody somewhere would prove that you can hear the difference in a test which NOBODY NOWHERE NO TIME EVER has done with any testing protocol attached.

While you are at it though Mr. Lexicon... why not start talking about how skin affect affects the sound.

Silver has lower capacitance yes.Well again, at the risk of nitpciking, it might have lower capacitance for exactly the same geometry/dimensions; and it would have lower resistance, too. But all you have to do to get back to the same results with copper is to tweak the dimensions appropriately.

The word from people who do stand in front of oscilloscopes and meters a lot---and yes, they listen, too.

http://www.audioholics.com/techtips/audioprinciples/interconnects/cableconstruction.php
http://www.audioholics.com/news/editorials/FiveAudioMyths2.php (see Myth #3)
http://www.audioholics.com/techtips/audioprinciples/interconnects/filename1235.php

Disclaimer: the Blue Jeans Cable company wrote the first article above, so they obviously have a vested interest. But Audioholics has endorsed the position nonetheless by copying the article to their own site and thanking BJC for writing it.

i was only meaing that construction materials do have different electrical properties and silver is known for lower capacitance in general. but there is a hell of a lot more involved than just using silver.

And as always, most of this NOBODY ON THIS PLANET CAN HEAR. If they could, it would have been proven at some point in the last 20-30 years.

Otherwise somebody somewhere would prove that you can hear the difference in a test which NOBODY NOWHERE NO TIME EVER has done with any testing protocol attached.
Well, the answer is rather simple. All the objectivists want to corrupt comparison tests by introducing protocols that are alien to the natural listening experience; i.e. they want the tests to be DB. Now how many of you listen to music DB? Exactly, only a calculator, data compressing, sterile objectivists would even consider this. I bet you that virtually anyone could tell the difference in clearly visible sighted test; i.e. test conditions that clearly simulate one's listening environment. The introduction of any variables that change the natural listening process can only be seen as a corrupting protocol.

Well, the answer is rather simple. All the objectivists want to corrupt comparison tests by introducing protocols that are alien to the natural listening experience; i.e. they want the tests to be DB. Now how many of you listen to music DB? Exactly, only a calculator, data compressing, sterile objectivists would even consider this. I bet you that virtually anyone could tell the difference in clearly visible sighted test; i.e. test conditions that clearly simulate one's listening environment. The introduction of any variables that change the natural listening process can only be seen as a corrupting protocol.


Ummm its pretty simple to do blind test in your own room. And I would bet as well that in a sighted test people would hear something different. Thats because the sight sense tricks the hearing, we do have tests to confirm that.

And I dont need a DBT I can measure cables with SMAART or SIM and see if they are different.

Ummm its pretty simple to do blind test in your own room.
You are missing the point. I don't listen to music blind. So by making me listen to it blind you have changed the circumstances under which I listen which introduced new variables. I bet you I would pass a sighted test with a 100% success rate, because the differences are so obvious then (and the variables are not being altered).

You are missing the point. I don't listen to music blind. So by making me listen to it blind you have changed the circumstances under which I listen which introduced new variables. I bet you I would pass a sighted test with a 100% success rate, because the differences are so obvious then (and the variables are not being altered).


You dont really understand how a DBT is done then do you? All we do is hide the cable switch from you.You can keep your eyes wide open.

Uh, guys... consider the possibility that he's playin' wit' ya.

In my thread? Banish the thought!




;)

Uh, guys... consider the possibility that he's playin' wit' ya.
Michael is just trying to misdirect you. You know we actually tried the sighted test at his place, and even though he didn't have cables that met the $20K threshold, I was easily able to tell the difference in sighted tests 100% of the time.

PS Hiding the cables is changing the natural environment of my listening room. I can clearly see them when I listen... and CABLE SWITCH? Are you INSANE? There is no way you are putting one of those in my system. It will defintely distort the signal. Again, try and understand this, you must keep all variable exactly as I have them when I listen to music (also I said music, not some stupid test signal).

PS Hiding the cables is changing the natural environment of my listening room. I can clearly see them when I listen...
So what? You can only hear which cable is better when you look at them too?

Well, in fact, Raul insists that the price tags remain on them too, dangling in Minnie Pearl fashion, since that's how he has them set up in his room now.

PS Hiding the cables is changing the natural environment of my listening room. I can clearly see them when I listen....

I am blind in my left eye, perhaps I could be of assistance? :)

Despite my bashing of all things cable (OK, I admit you need at least one if you want sound out of your system!), those that have never closed their eyes to concentrate on the sound or have 'felt' the music and closed their eyes are really missing out on life.



IMHO.

Michael is just trying to misdirect you. You know we actually tried the sighted test at his place, and even though he didn't have cables that met the $20K threshold, I was easily able to tell the difference in sighted tests 100% of the time.

PS Hiding the cables is changing the natural environment of my listening room. I can clearly see them when I listen... and CABLE SWITCH? Are you INSANE? There is no way you are putting one of those in my system. It will defintely distort the signal. Again, try and understand this, you must keep all variable exactly as I have them when I listen to music (also I said music, not some stupid test signal).

Troll.

Well, in fact, Raul insists that the price tags remain on them too, dangling in Minnie Pearl fashion, since that's how he has them set up in his room now.
Well, ever since I had a little difficulty telling which one was better (although you could hear the difference), I did have to start putting "markers" on them, and I now I find it is easier to identify the better cable. Actually, nothing mysterious there, when you know which is the better cable you are also able to listen to it better; it is a symbiotic relationship despite what the tin eared will have you believe.

Curt,
You are right about listening with your eyes closed or the lights off, it does make the experience more magical. But when you are comparing cables it is better to make the comparison with all your senses in action, otherwise one of the senses (invariably hearing, if one goes by the results from poorly done DBT) might be fulled by the magic of the moment.

Geez, speco2003, relax!

Raul, (and yes, this is heading towards another cable debate), let me address your comment about the speaker cable switch that you complain about. Let's say for argument's sake that you build a REALLY good one. Solid heavy duty contacts, gold plated, whatever floats your boat. Do you really think it will affect the sound greatly?

Most everyone agrees that the various cables affect sound subtly as compared to say changing room treatments or components within systems. Wouldn't a well built A/B switch then minimally affect the sound of the cable?

How can the human brain retain the memory of subtle changes of speaker cables given the time it takes to swap the cables out? Thus my critique of the flawed demo of the Synergistic cable where not only they paused the music, they didn't even repeat the same passage of music.

HOw about accounting for the differences that the internal speaker cables and PC board wiring within the amplifier and crossover in the speaker? Certainly those should/must also use your esoteric cable of choice. Heck, why not bypass the input terminals of the speaker or the amp's output terminals, and wire the speaker cable right to the PC board itself? My eliminating two sets of connection points, the sound should clean up some, n'est ce pas?

I think PC has set the bar too high for people to be over the top. I would have thought that my explanations about slow electrons might have helped, or the obviously slanted experimental protocols being proposed would betray my meaning. Mike tried to hint it, my comments about Mike and you (Curt) seemed way over the top to me, but I guess Nirvana has set threshold that is hard to overcome. Next time I'll try and be more obvious, but at the moment it escapes me how :D

i think that this arena is so absurd that where other should have seen irony they assumed it was not.

I thought you get fairly obvious to the end.

Raul, I was quite surprised how long you had people going! :) But to be fair chhelo had me fooled on the rotary sub thread ("why is this thing so expensive?") so I can't really judge anyone too harshly.

Dang!

;)

I think PC has set the bar too high for people to be over the top. I would have thought that my explanations about slow electrons might have helped, or the obviously slanted experimental protocols being proposed would betray my meaning. Mike tried to hint it, my comments about Mike and you (Curt) seemed way over the top to me, but I guess Nirvana has set threshold that is hard to overcome. Next time I'll try and be more obvious, but at the moment it escapes me how :D


well I guess I wouldnt have been along for the ride so long if it were not for the posters like Vahaillia who troll here. So the jig is up on me.

Yes, Valhalla does tend to jam our reality distortion detectors, doesn't he! I have finally had to just ignore him and any thread he substantially contributes to.

Yes, Valhalla does tend to jam our reality distortion detectors, doesn't he! I have finally had to just ignore him and any thread he substantially contributes to.

I think ValhallaPC is conspicuous by his absence from the latter part of this thread. After all, it is his area of speciality. He may have pushed the envelope too far with his temperature experiments or is just working on new material! I feel that until ValhallaPC offers his unique acumen to the discussion, we are all deluding ourselves as to just how high the bar can indeed be! :rolleyes:

Again... everybody call me crazy but I can hear the difference between my cables (Synergistic Research Vs stock Vs Nordost) can't explain how... but I can. I've read so much about this topic and I know i have science telling me there is NO difference but my ears tell me different . Just yesterday I did a blind test with my wife and I scored 100 % .. At least in Audio (have not tried a blind test in HT)system the difference was Incredible at least for me and my wife...

Yes, Valhalla does tend to jam our reality distortion detectors, doesn't he! I have finally had to just ignore him and any thread he substantially contributes to.

??....I had always thought that ValhallaPC was on the AVS Forum payroll, in the capacity of Forum Buffoon, or "court jester"....

If he were really such a lunatic, I doubt the facility in which he was confined would allow him internet access.

Again... everybody call me crazy but I can hear the difference between my cables (Synergistic Research Vs stock Vs Nordost) can't explain how... but I can. I've read so much about this topic and I know i have science telling me there is NO difference but my ears tell me different . Just yesterday I did a blind test with my wife and I scored 100 % .. At least in Audio (have not tried a blind test in HT)system the difference was Incredible at least for me and my wife...

Explain how you did the test. How many times you switched etc.. Because if you can do it 100% then you can win the prize money that is out there.

Yes, Valhalla does tend to jam our reality distortion detectors, doesn't he! I have finally had to just ignore him and any thread he substantially contributes to.

heh... I don't want to miss any VPC posts... the guy is so far out there, he's comically entertaining. He's just another very odd personality like Kramer or Borat.

Again... everybody call me crazy but I can hear the difference between my cables (Synergistic Research Vs stock Vs Nordost) can't explain how... but I can. Lexicon_mike, look. For the sake of argument I am more than willing to grant your claim that you could hear the difference between these two cables. Heaven knows I wasn't there, and I'm not going to sit here and accuse you of flubbing the tests.

The problem is that this does nothing to support your claim that you can hear the difference between silver and copper. The differences between their construction are numerous. Heck, the Synergistic folks do all sorts of wacko things with "active shielding", for example. So there is simply no way you can conclude that the cause of those sonic differences is due to the metal chosen.

EDIT: Tell those Synergistic fellows to quit ripping off Apple and get a real web site design :)

Michael, Have you tried any of these cables ???

what does that question have to do with his statement?

Michael, Have you tried any of these cables ???


Can u please answer my question?

lexicon_mike: I've not auditioned those cables in my own system, no. I have auditioned Nordost Valhallas in someone else's system, though. The system sounded great, but of course that was due to the surrounding equipment (e.g., Wilson X2's, Emm Labs source, etc.).

But Dizzman is right. Like I said, I'm granting for the sake of this debate that you had no trouble differentiating between these three cables. So my answer to your question is irrelevant.

It's now your turn to tell me why your auditions prove that you can hear the difference between silver and copper.

Let's say someone tested two systems with different CD players, preamps, amplifiers, cables, and speakers. Then, when one sounded better than the other, they say, "well that proves it: cable A is better than cable B." Wouldn't you agree that their test doesn't support that conclusion? And yet that is in fact just a more extreme example of the faulty logic you're demonstrating.