We've all seen the announcement from Directv at CES:

http://phx.corporate-ir.net/phoenix.zhtml?c=127160&p=irol-newsArticle&ID=948332&highlight=

Curious what people are thinking is REALLY going to happen. At first blush it seems ground breaking and I was counting down the days to sign back up with Directv but then reading all the differnt press accounts I'm honestly started wondering if it’s not that big a deal at all really. I'm curious what people HONESTLY think. Hopefully we can have a conversation rather than folks shouting each other down. I put it all in one thread with the numbers as best I could see we could all see what is going on. (feel free to point out any errors and I’ll fix as soon as possible)

The press release specifically says:

DIRECTV, the nation's leading satellite television service provider, is hailing 2007 as the "Year of HD" with the planned launch and carriage of 100 national high-definition (HD) channels.


First question is will they Launch 100 NEW channels or Carry 100 channels in Total? The title of the press release says:

DIRECTV to Offer 100 National HD Channels in 2007

So I'm starting to think they are planning to have 100 in total.


TNT
Espn
Espn2
Universal HD
Discovery HD
HDNET
HDNEt movies
HBO and
SHO
NBA TV (listed in winter 2006 programming synopis as on D*?)
+8 National DNS feeds of the Big 4. (seems crummy to include those and not sure if they count them but in the past it’s been argues that those 8 were what “doubled” the HD programming at one point in the past.

So that means currently they have 9 or 17 HD channels depending on how you look at it.

The press release also mentions RSN’s and currently they carry ~26 of them in SD nationally and something like 19 of them as HD LIL via Ka. So It seems a safe bet that between 19 and 26 of the HD RSN’s will be included in the National HD channels carried by year end. (allows them MLB, NBA, NHL packages in HD- correct?)

So that gets us to something between 28 and 43 National HD channels

The press release also says:
-- A&E
-- National Geographic
-- Bravo
-- NFL Network
-- Cartoon Network
-- SciFi Channel
-- CNN
-- Speed
-- Food Network
-- TBS
-- FX
-- The History Channel
-- HGTV
-- The Weather Channel
-- MTV
-- USA Network

So that’s another 16

Then another article says the Chiller channel too.

So that gets us to 45 to 60 national HD channels

The first press release also talks about filling out the premium movie channel

To satisfy the insatiable appetite for a greater number of movies in HD, DIRECTV will offer an expanded line-up of HD programming available from all premium movie channels

So we can assume Cinemax HD east, Starx HD east, and the Movie Channel East. Plus west coast feeds of those and HBO and SHO HD.

So that’s 8 new movie channels.

Gets us to 53 to 68 National HD channels.

(One article posted here says they have agreements with 60 Networks and the Press release says they have agreements in principle with 70- so that’s right around the ballpark give or take)

From the winter 2006 HDTV synopsis thread here that leaves:
E!
Golf /Versus
INHD (fat chance – cable hates directv- LOL)
MHD (EDIT:apparently the same as MTV)
Outdoor 2 HD
Wealth
And the 15 voom channels.

So depending on how many of those they land they are anyplace between 52 and 88 national HD channels.

I speculated in a couple threads that they also could offer the content providers to delauy their east cost feeds and creat west coast feeds for basdically anything. It looks like the Movie people have their own east and west and the RSN’s would have no need. So that leaves something like up to 55 national ‘cable’ type channels that exist or are announced that they could create a west coast feed for.

So based upon what’s announced today it wouldn’t be outside the realm of possibility that they could have something like 140 National HD channels in short order.


Obviously depends on peoples perceptions of the different scenarios (DO Big 4 DNS count? Do RSN’s Count?) how they take the news. At a mimium we’re looking at 17 NEW channels (as listed in the initial press release plus the chiller). And if you are a glass half full sort of guy you might think 140 national channels is a reality some time soon.

I’m glad I took the time for myself to line it all out. To my eye it looks very promising even if they use some shenanigans to pump their numbers.

Time wil tell…

edit: as others point out this doesn't include PPV. IN my head I just assume they will fill the remaining 150 slots with PPV since there is no reason not to.

Simple. They will add virtually every one including East and West Coast Versions of the Movie Channels.

Another thing that you might be missing is that I expect them to expand their HD PPV offerings greatly - as they have no reason not to. Remember BEV has 4 HD PPVs on all the time and D* has more depth in their contracts with HD PPV than E* or TWC for example. They could literally throw up 20 HD PPV channels if they wanted.

Simple. They will add virtually every one including East and West Coast Versions of the Movie Channels.

Another thing that you might be missing is that I expect them to expand their HD PPV offerings greatly - as they have no reason not to. Remember BEV has 4 HD PPVs on all the time and D* has more depth in their contracts with HD PPV than E* or TWC for example.

Agreed. D* will be aggressive so that they can say that they have more HD than any other provider (will be hard to beat FIOS though)

I did not see HD VOD on your list either. I would expect that also.

How about Playboy HD too?

MHD (if that’s not the MTV quoted by D*)MHD is MTV-HD.

Also, the new Big 10 HD channel has been reported to already have a contract with D*. I also remember reading that Vs/Golf channel HD already has an agreement with D*. Another possibility is Sleuth-HD.

Everything HD available.

Everything HD available.

And that is THE important thing. I'm not hung up on matching a certain number. I just want one provider that can give me every possible national HD channel and every possible local and regional HD channel. Whether adds up to 60, 70, 80 or 100 is a non-issue IMO.

I did not see HD VOD on your list either. I would expect that also.


DBS is playing games with VOD - the best they can do is preload stuff on a Hard Drive. It's really not what we have come to expect with VOD - so they may try to spin it, but you really cannot do VOD properly with DBS technology the way it is today.

Content should be their focus for the next few years as they can blow out E* in that area.

Everything HD available.


define "availible"

for example- I doubt INHD is availible for a price eitehr DBS provider is willing to pay considering the method cable uses to set the rate- eg TOTAL digital subs.

so you think the voom channels are a certainty?

Simple. They will add virtually every one including East and West Coast Versions of the Movie Channels.

Another thing that you might be missing is that I expect them to expand their HD PPV offerings greatly - as they have no reason not to. Remember BEV has 4 HD PPVs on all the time and D* has more depth in their contracts with HD PPV than E* or TWC for example. They could literally throw up 20 HD PPV channels if they wanted.


define "virtually"

SPICE HD and Playboy HD

virually and availible-

You guys work for marketing firms?

(just joking dsont get your panties in a snit)

And that is THE important thing. I'm not hung up on matching a certain number. I just want one provider that can give me every possible national HD channel and every possible local and regional HD channel. Whether adds up to 60, 70, 80 or 100 is a non-issue IMO.


national I think they will do pretty much everything they can get their hands on- just like now with SD there will be a small percentage that they dont come to terms with.

But the funny thing is local, which I for one thought was the simple side of things with the spaceways and all, seems to be a bigger deal than first blush.

SPICE HD and Playboy HD


those exist in the wild? I didn't see them in the synopsis thread. But I seem to recall they do exist?

those exist in the wild? I didn't see them in the synopsis thread. But I seem to recall they do exist?

SpiceHD most certainly does.
http://www.lyngsat.com/hd/echo9ia13.html

Playboy did have a HD Channel on Voom iirc, but I am not sure if it continued after the demise of Voom or not. If Xylon says it does, I will guess it probably does.

DBS is playing games with VOD - the best they can do is preload stuff on a Hard Drive. It's really not what we have come to expect with VOD - so they may try to spin it, but you really cannot do VOD properly with DBS technology the way it is today.

Content should be their focus for the next few years as they can blow out E* in that area.

THey've said they plan to load the most popular titles on the DVR drive's reserved space and then offer a much bigger catalog over other people's broadband. But I think that was mostly about SD and not really HD....

SpiceHD most certainly does.
http://www.lyngsat.com/hd/echo9ia13.html

Playboy did have a HD Channel on Voom iirc, but I am not sure if it continued after the demise of Voom or not. If Xylon says it does, I will guess it probably does.

I wonder- is the synopsis thread supposed to be rated G?

They will add a big fat increase to our bills thats what they will add. Just think about it. This is a company that believes its PQ is outstanding and is going to add all HD channels in existence?

reading the comment about not mattering how many as long as they are ALL there made me thing to count.

Looks like if you take out the rsn's and the broadcast channels you get like 57 total national channels on the air or announced. 4 of which are duplicate east/west movie feeds and 15 are vooms.

They will add a big fat increase to our bills thats what they will add. Just think about it. This is a company that believes its PQ is outstanding and is going to add all HD channels in existence?


I wonder since many of the new ones are basically HD versions of the SD channels (except the VOOM block) if the price per sub is that big a deal and they can just suck most of it up....

I'm sure there will be something of an increase but hopefully it will be just 5 or 10 bucks

MHD is MTV-HD.

No it is not.

MHD is an ALL HD MUSIC channel featuring HD music from MTV,VH-1 and CMT

define "availible"

for example- I doubt INHD is availible for a price eitehr DBS provider is willing to pay considering the method cable uses to set the rate- eg TOTAL digital subs.

so you think the voom channels are a certainty?
Let me make it simple. All HD channels they can legally carry in the US.

Your doubting INHD is a mistake. They will have it.
Voom? They will probably buy it.

They will add a big fat increase to our bills thats what they will add. Yeah, that too. But, many will think it's worth it. To each their own.

I wonder- is the synopsis thread supposed to be rated G?
No.

Let me make it simple. All HD channels they can legally carry in the US.

Your doubting INHD is a mistake. They will have it.
Voom? They will probably buy it.


inhd would be cool- but didn't DISH file a complaint with the FCC that they had pricing that was purposely made to be too much for DBS? You think they (D* and INHD) can come to an agreement or that the FCC will force something?

No.


hmmm- the synopsis says spice was discontinued. Is the lygsat info wrong?

Let me make it simple. All HD channels they can legally carry in the US.
....

do you think it will amount to basically the ~57 current or announced "cable" channels plus RSN's plus whatever they do with broadcast?

Or you think there will be a whole bunch more "cable channels" announced before the year end?

Or you think there will be a whole bunch more "cable channels" announced before the year end?
There will be more HD channels to come.

As stated above, in the end the exact number is irrelevant. The bottom line is this: They will have more HD capacity than HD channels. They will have most all, if not all, everything HD they can legally carry.

hmmm- the synopsis says spice was discontinued. Is the lygsat info wrong?
I know Spice HD is no longer carried on DirecTV, which was the only carrier. Not sure if it's still up, or not.

Let me make it simple. All HD channels they can legally carry in the US.

Your doubting INHD is a mistake. They will have it.
Voom? They will probably buy it.

I'll believe it when i see it... ;)

I'll believe it when i see it... ;)Get your eyes tuned up.

what are they doing with the RSNs and HD Locals right now? Are those HD-Lite?

Get your eyes tuned up.

Believe me Ken...if and when we see all those channels on D* INCLUDING Voom?

I certianly will...my eyes will be tuned up more than anyone, but no sooner...

my eyes will be tuned up to something else until that happens...

Don't get me wrong here...I'm not married to D* or E* with a huge equipment purchase, nor am I bound by ego to any one provider...so I am rather enjoying the fact that I can afford to be a skeptic (or a realist) here...and still have nothing to lose and everything to gain in spite of it... ;)

I expect D* to offer the channels they released in their last press release by the end of 2007

I think they have some struggles and it is maybe pushed back a little but eventually they get it out

I think people will be surprised at the amount of channels that want to go HD by the end of 2007/beginning of 2008 that are not on anyones lists

Everything HD available.

Does that include MSG and FSNY HD?

SPICE HD and Playboy HD


not with john "family values" malone running the show...

Everything HD available.

Does that mean CW, PBS, and MNTV HD locals as well?

Does that mean CW, PBS, and MNTV HD locals as well?

That means that channels like cartoonnetwork-HD, TWC-HD, CNN-HD and several other channels that don't even exist yet are a definite...so given that those channels you mention actually do exist...I'd say the chances are probaby really good! :D

Does anyone think that the HD RSN's may be carried nationally, so that HD games for exclusive sports packages would have access to every available HD game.

Yes, that will happen -- though perhaps not this MLB season, depending on when the satellites come online.

not with john "family values" malone running the show...


If the deal is already done then there is zip he can do about it.

Get your eyes tuned up.

You two are making my eyes hurt really bad... :D

not with john "family values" malone running the show...

Yes, that's why Starz produced the Masters of Horrors series that airs on Showtime - for family values, ROFLMAO.

I hope that some of the other movie channels (like Encore, IFC, etc) will add HD versions as well. And you know that there's going to be a QVC-HD by the end of the year. :D

what are they doing with the RSNs and HD Locals right now? Are those HD-Lite?

No MPEG4 stations are HD-Lite.

There will be more HD channels to come.

As stated above, in the end the exact number is irrelevant. The bottom line is this: They will have more HD capacity than HD channels. They will have most all, if not all, everything HD they can legally carry.


I think most of us agree that Directv will have the most.

But I am curious if that will be 60, 80, 100, or 120. So to me it IS relevant. I think theis is BIGGER then just what DirecTV carries. It has repercussions on the whole state of affair s for the whole HD TV industry. For example- some speculate that FIOS will attempt to match D*'s offering. E* will surely try to scramble to respond. And IF D* and Fios have HUGE HD offerings, then local Cable franchises in areas with FIOS will have some hardchoices to make (I smell switched video for cable in a lot of FIOS areas- LOL)

So I'm curious how far Directv's oddles of bandwidth push the whole bar.

At a mimimum it looks like almost 60 "cable channels" plus locals plus RSN's will be HD. That's a pretty decent slate. It's a shame VOOM try it when they did. I have to wonder if they could have stalled the FCC a couple more years and tried to creat an all HD provider at the end of this year what would have come of them. About the only thing missing from what my family watches is somethign from the Disney Suite for my young kids. IF that existed I could go all HD I think and not miss anything really.

Does that include MSG and FSNY HD?


Anyone know the status of that cable loophole about ground transmission of channels they own? I seem to recall that some law got passed that limited it to the current situation that comcast enjoys in philly and one other spot? Anyone remember/know the specifics? Will cable be forced to share their HD RSN's?

Does anyone think that the HD RSN's may be carried nationally, so that HD games for exclusive sports packages would have access to every available HD game.


I'm farily certain that they are planning that and that they need those 20ish channels to get anyplace near 100. I know the first post is long and a mess- but if you follow it- unless Directv plays games and makes east and west feeds of everythign they cant get anywhere near 100 without the RSN's.

If they get permission to sell the HD feeds in the packages is another issue. But if I recall didn't they include the HD games last year if they happened to be in MPEG2 in Ku?

D*'s capacity will definitely raise the bar. Not so much that they have pushed networks to develop HD channels (although they are encouraging as many as possible) - most of these networks have only sat on HD development because there was no potential for carriage. If Comcast had come out with capacity for 50 additional HD channels 2 years ago, they would have likely been filled up already.

Mark Cuban, and a handful of others, were smart enough to grab up the limited bandwidth when it was still available - most others were shut out and just now have the opportunity to get their share. I suspect this "oodles of capacity" won't last very long.

D*'s capacity will definitely raise the bar. Not so much that they have pushed networks to develop HD channels (although they are encouraging as many as possible) - most of these networks have only sat on HD development because there was no potential for carriage. If Comcast had come out with capacity for 50 additional HD channels 2 years ago, they would have likely been filled up already.
.

agreed- but the question is now that D* pushes the bar (or more likely destorys the bar and builds a new a mile higher- LOL)- what does everyone else do?

I hate to start a D* vs E* pissing match- so everyone please relax- but what is E*'s sat status? I know right before they went belly up that VOOM placed an order for a fleet of Directv10/11 type Ka sats and they had like 4 slots to use them. To E* pick any of that up?






Mark Cuban, and a handful of others, were smart enough to grab up the limited bandwidth when it was still available - most others were shut out and just now have the opportunity to get their share. I suspect this "oodles of capacity" won't last very long.

agreed . It would love to be a fly on the wall in the D* strategic planning meetings. Do they decide to get picky with the last 50 HD channels they add? DO they add them all as anyone offers? Do they have a plan to toss up the "ground spare" Directv 12 anytime soon at 101 if need be?


Do we even know if a spaceway and a directv-10/11 even maxes out the transponder space at 99/103- maybe they can fit a Directv 12 and 13 at 99 and 103 too and not even touch 101 for years to come.... IT takes like 3 birds at KU 101 to fill the transponders- right? And KA is a bigger slice of the pie then Ku- correct?

I would love to be a fly on the wall in the D* strategic planning meetings. Do they decide to get picky with the last 50 HD channels they add? DO they add them all as anyone offers?

Probably waiting to see if the religious and shopping channels will pay a premium for HD carriage before allocating too many. :D

Probably waiting to see if the religious and shopping channels will pay a premium for HD carriage before allocating too many. :D


made me laugh!

made me laugh!

Me too...imagine the impact on sales HD is going to have on selling those sparkling high-quality diamonds for only 19.95 !

IMO they will have the most hd but not as many channels as many of you think. At least not right away. They will take their time after the initial bunch is added. D* has never moved fast on adding anything. Should be exciting though.

IMO they will have the most hd but not as many channels as many of you think. At least not right away. They will take their time after the initial bunch is added. D* has never moved fast on adding anything. Should be exciting though.



OOOOOOOOO! Do not say such things! The D*-vangelists will spit at you! And call you names! :D

lol...just kidding....

Seriously tough, I said the same exact thing in the other thread for panicking E* subs. Q3 will just be the beginning of the 100 channels process, not the end of it...theres plenty of time to pass here...

Your right...it will be exciting...and interesting...

OOOOOOOOO! Do not say such things! The D*-vangelists will spit at you! And call you names! :D

lol...just kidding....

Seriously tough, I said the same exact thing in the other thread for panicking E* subs. Q3 will just be the beginning of the 100 channels process, not the end of it...theres plenty of time to pass here...

Your right...it will be exciting...and interesting...


Good points- they say "most" in Q3. so that means they need to get to 51.

they have like 16-17 up right now. They can quickly move the ~20 RSN's they have now off spaceway spots and onto Directv10/11 conus beams- they have the encoders and the backhaul and the uplinks for all that so it's simple. So they just need to add like 14 or 15 new national HD channels right away to meet their stated goal. Still impressive but they dont necessarily need to toss up all 30 or 40 new HD channels on day 1 to meet their stated plan.

I wonder too- if they will take the current MPEG2 HD's and put them up in better quality in MPEG4/Ka that would be nice and yet another rincentive to get people to switch to mpeg4? (as if 15- 40 new channels isn't enough in itslef :) )

how about Sunday Ticket- 2007

Anyone want to speculate if they start trying to get those people moved to MPEG4 anytime soon?

Probably not in 2007, But you can bet on 2008.

No MPEG4 stations are HD-Lite.

Curious, how do you know? Last I knew, there was no way to check them on D*? If there is, thats great news.

Curious, how do you know? Last I knew, there was no way to check them on D*? If there is, thats great news.
I think HDTVFanAtic has data that confirms it although I could be mistaken. I don't believe there's a way for the common end-user to make that determination though, I believe his data was obtained through commercial means.

Curious, how do you know? Last I knew, there was no way to check them on D*? If there is, thats great news.

I believe there is no way to know as you point out. But people who have MPEG$ report that in general the channels look just as good as OTA broadcast.

Someone around here has posted about doing test patterns on the D* MPEG4 LIL's and that the 1080i based stations have some issues (IIRCC) so that could be the flip side.

Also, there's an interview with a dierectv technology guy form D* floating around where he dances around the question of MPEG4 LIL quality and the whole "HD-lite" thing. But what is interesting is he sort of implies that they are working at putting in MPEG4 encoders right at the stations to grab the high bitrate feed BEFORE it gets compressed for OTA MPEG2 and if that is posible that Directv might actual have better PQ then OTA. There's a post or 2 floating around about a cable company in upstate NY that does a similar thing with the Local PBS so it's not unheard of for a provider to get the high bit rate signal at the source to do better then OTA.

take that all as you will...

I think HDTVFanAtic has data that confirms it although I could be mistaken. I don't believe there's a way for the common end-user to make that determination though, I believe his data was obtained through commercial means.

hopefully he pops in to clarify but i thought he said there was some issue with 1080i stations? But 720 were fine?

I believe there is no way to know as you point out. But people who have MPEG$ report that in general the channels look just as good as OTA broadcast.

Someone around here has posted about doing test patterns on the D* MPEG4 LIL's and that the 1080i based stations have some issues (IIRCC) so that could be the flip side.

Also, there's an interview with a dierectv technology guy form D* floating around where he dances around the question of MPEG4 LIL quality and the whole "HD-lite" thing. But what is interesting is he sort of implies that they are working at putting in MPEG4 encoders right at the stations to grab the high bitrate feed BEFORE it gets compressed for OTA MPEG2 and if that is posible that Directv might actual have better PQ then OTA. There's a post or 2 floating around about a cable company in upstate NY that does a similar thing with the Local PBS so it's not unheard of for a provider to get the high bit rate signal at the source to do better then OTA.

take that all as you will...

If they can get their encoders right at the station that would certainly be ideal! They wouldnt have to worry about subchannel's stealing bandwidth at that point right? And even possibly offer HD versions of sub channels that are down rezzed (like CW, MNTV) in many areas?

I think DirecTV will have the HD channels they announced at CES, most of them anyways, and probably towards the end of the year. Remember that stuff announced at CES is, in a lot cases, very forward looking. I can remember things that were talked about at CES 2 years that still haven't happened.

Will they have every HD channel available? I wouldn't take that to the bank, but I would bet they will have more total unique(non-local) HD channels than any other carrier comes year's end.

I think DirecTV will have the HD channels they announced at CES, most of them anyways, and probably towards the end of the year. Remember that stuff announced at CES is, in a lot cases, very forward looking. I can remember things that were talked about at CES 2 years that still haven't happened.

Will they have every HD channel available? I wouldn't take that to the bank, but I would bet they will have more total unique(non-local) HD channels than any other carrier comes year's end.

Makes you wonder if/when cable is going to bite the bullet and drop analog channels and convert everything to digital. They are wasting huge amounts of bandwidth (76 frequencies on my Charter system here) to analog. Thats a lot of HD they could add if those were QAM256. I dont see where cable really has an option.

As for Dish, their only hope seems to be getting more birds up, but I dont know if they are going to do that or not (DBS Expansion Band?). I know I will never see Fios or U-verse here...

Makes you wonder if/when cable is going to bite the bullet and drop analog channels and convert everything to digital. They are wasting huge amounts of bandwidth (76 frequencies on my Charter system here) to analog. Thats a lot of HD they could add if those were QAM256. I dont see where cable really has an option.

As for Dish, their only hope seems to be getting more birds up, but I dont know if they are going to do that or not (DBS Expansion Band?). I know I will never see Fios or U-verse here...
No chance that cable will sit idly sit by and let satco overtake them. In my market, SF, Comcast has already announced they are upgrading their 550MHz systems to 1GHz this year, and in today's HOTP thread there's an article about a new infrastructure push to upgrade cable.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9494394#post9494394
Hot Off The Press! The Latest Television News and Info - AVS Forum

Makes you wonder if/when cable is going to bite the bullet and drop analog channels and convert everything to digital. They are wasting huge amounts of bandwidth (76 frequencies on my Charter system here) to analog. Thats a lot of HD they could add if those were QAM256. I dont see where cable really has an option.

...


that will take time for sure. I think I've seen that 45% of the big players subs have digital cable. So that means 55% are still only analog. Beyong that digital cable doesn't mean all the tv's in the house are digital. For a player like comcast that MIGHT mean as many as 40 or 50 million s STB's. Even to go head end by head end would be a huge chore. My local provider is smaller and only has 80,000 subs. I believe they use a single head end to do that (might be 2). So it could be hundreds of thousands of stb's to be deployed in these little market to clear analog (assuming 3 boxes per household which i think it around average)

Even assuming you put up the capital to do that, there's an awfull lot of risk of pissing of many subs by forcing STB's on every tv.

Not a good row to hoe for cable at all....

More likley is they dump 10-12 analog stations and convert them to digital and add in 20 HD channels. Problem becomes dumping that many analog stations might be hard to do if their carriage agreements require carriage on the analog tier....

on my local provider the first 28 channels are all locals (who get a say where they go) or educational/local access (probably mandated by franchise agreements to be analog) and then 3 shopping channels (god forbid you move them off the analog tier-LOL).

Then there are another 50 channels of analog "cable channel" stuff. There's the RSN's, the ESPN block, the news stuff and a lot of stuff that is conglomerate related (viacom MTV, disneys abcfamily and disney channel, turner stuff, etc) So i'm not sure if my provider can easily dump any of that to the digital tier to make way for more HD? Maybe they can make deals for example that they will take National Geographic HD if they can move the SD version to digital? Just dont know....

Some people speculate that switched video is the way to go, but others say there is no point becasue it's basically only good as an interim method and becomes wastefull when everyone has/wants HD in a few years...

But I think Directv moving the bar soo far will force something to give in the log jam- just cant figure out what....

But I think Directv moving the bar soo far will force something to give in the log jam- just cant figure out what....
Lets hope it lights a fire under the nether regions of all other providers! :D

hopefully he pops in to clarify but i thought he said there was some issue with 1080i stations? But 720 were fine?


Everyday when someone makes the claim that the D* MPEG4 stations look as good as OTA, I usually find another post from within the last 24 hours stating just the opposite - the latest was when a new D* viewer in Dallas stated how much worse the D* version of 24 looked compared to OTA.

As stated, even with a low bitrate such as 24, D*'s MPEG4 still cannot make it look as good as OTA. As others speculated, with lower bitrate which are becoming the norm with multicasting, the MPEG4 conversion is even worse.

No chance that cable will sit idly sit by and let satco overtake them. In my market, SF, Comcast has already announced they are upgrading their 550MHz systems to 1GHz this year, and in today's HOTP thread there's an article about a new infrastructure push to upgrade cable.
...


dont mean to wander off topic- but can anyone point to a reference of what 550, 750, 870, 1k mhz means in the real world? As in how many channels really could be carried over those?

I believe each rf channel is 6hmz slot. And that one analog SD takes a whole channel. If they convert to digital sd I think they fit 6 channels in a slot. And if they use a channel for HD they can fit 2. But I also know some of that has to be set aside for internet/voip/ppv etc. So what amount of the bandwidth is really left for the use of video?

I'd like to figure out what my local cable provider is capabale of doing to respond to D*.

I beleive I've read that FIOS uses 870mhz purely for video and then other bandwidth for voice and data. PPV/VOD is alos IPTV outside the 870. If i recall they use 30 channels at the bottom for locals? So assuming worst case 30 locals in analog- at worst fios has 115 6mhz slots left for digital so they could carry 690 SD or 230 HD or a combination of both. Recent Press releases in NJ say they have 200 digital channels - 20 HD of which are HD. So 30 RF channels for analog, 30 Rf channels to carry 180 SD digital. That leaves 85 rf channels for HD or the ability to carry 170 HD channels. Seems like Verizon will be just fine to match anything DIrectv wants to do in the near term.

But on the cable side- once you start subtracting piles of channels away from a similar 870 mhz cable plant for extended analog basic, Phone, broadband, PPV/VOD, you see how quickly cable can get into trouble.

Everyday when someone makes the claim that the D* MPEG4 stations look as good as OTA, I usually find another post from within the last 24 hours stating just the opposite - the latest was when a new D* viewer in Dallas stated how much worse the D* version of 24 looked compared to OTA.

As stated, even with a low bitrate such as 24, D*'s MPEG4 still cannot make it look as good as OTA. As others speculated, with lower bitrate which are becoming the norm with multicasting, the MPEG4 conversion is even worse.


can you either paraphrase or aim me to the link of the resuts you got with the test patterns?

Thanks

that will take time for sure. I think I've seen that 45% of the big players subs have digital cable. So that means 55% are still only analog. Beyong that digital cable doesn't mean all the tv's in the house are digital. For a player like comcast that MIGHT mean as many as 40 or 50 million s STB's. Even to go head end by head end would be a huge chore. My local provider is smaller and only has 80,000 subs. I believe they use a single head end to do that (might be 2). So it could be hundreds of thousands of stb's to be deployed in these little market to clear analog (assuming 3 boxes per household which i think it around average)

Even assuming you put up the capital to do that, there's an awfull lot of risk of pissing of many subs by forcing STB's on every tv.



As I stated in several other threads

1) Every single person I know has atleast 1 CableReady TV located somewhere without a Cable STB in their house (whether in kitchen, bathroom, kids room etc).

2) When you add a digital STB there is a $5+ charge that they do not pay now.

3) Subs do not like the delay in the changing channel with digital stbs

4) You loose all PIP capability when the Analogs go away

5) There are still many more subs bringing in much more money with analog channels than there are those who are upset about lack of HD Channels - especially as half the HD Viewers do not have HD Channels and only watch stretched 480 on their sets




More likley is they dump 10-12 analog stations and convert them to digital and add in 20 HD channels. Problem becomes dumping that many analog stations might be hard to do if their carriage agreements require carriage on the analog tier....



Another reason



on my local provider the first 28 channels are all locals (who get a say where they go) or educational/local access (probably mandated by franchise agreements to be analog) and then 3 shopping channels (god forbid you move them off the analog tier-LOL).



Those channels actually help keep the cost of your cable bill DOWN.



But I think Directv moving the bar soo far will force something to give in the log jam- just cant figure out what....

In reality DBS has offered more channels than cable for years - so I don't think the cable companies are concerned that they match every one.

dont mean to wander off topic- but can anyone point to a reference of what 550, 750, 870, 1k mhz means in the real world? As in how many channels really could be carried over those?

I believe each rf channel is 6hmz slot. And that one analog SD takes a whole channel. If they convert to digital sd I think they fit 6 channels in a slot. And if they use a channel for HD they can fit 2. But I also know some of that has to be set aside for internet/voip/ppv etc. So what amount of the bandwidth is really left for the use of video?

I'd like to figure out what my local cable provider is capabale of doing to respond to D*.

I beleive I've read that FIOS uses 870mhz purely for video and then other bandwidth for voice and data. PPV/VOD is alos IPTV outside the 870. If i recall they use 30 channels at the bottom for locals? So assuming worst case 30 locals in analog- at worst fios has 115 6mhz slots left for digital so they could carry 690 SD or 230 HD or a combination of both. Recent Press releases in NJ say they have 200 digital channels - 20 HD of which are HD. So 30 RF channels for analog, 30 Rf channels to carry 180 SD digital. That leaves 85 rf channels for HD or the ability to carry 170 HD channels. Seems like Verizon will be just fine to match anything DIrectv wants to do in the near term.

But on the cable side- once you start subtracting piles of channels away from a similar 870 mhz cable plant for extended analog basic, Phone, broadband, PPV/VOD, you see how quickly cable can get into trouble.

In rough numbers:

HD channel should take 1/2 of a QAM256 slot.
A QAM256 slot is 6MHz, so you can get 2 or more HD channels per 6MHz of RF space and/or 12-20 standard digital channels.
An analog channel takes 6MHz as well.

On a 1GHz system, you can have room for 70 analog channels - 420MHz - and still have 560MHz left over for possibly 150 or more HD channels - 560/6 = 93x2 = 186 3MHz QAM256 slots. Some of that spectrum will be used for internet and phone, maybe 1 6MHz QAM256 slot at the most I would think, possibly a few more, 5-6 for VOD, etc.

So, with a 1GHz system, cable will be very competitive with the satcos in the amount of HD channels they can deliver, and we haven't even talked about switched digital et al, and remember, the above numbers assume that the 70 basic analog channels will still be provided, move some of those over to digital and there's even more bandwidth for digital products.

Cable has some work to do, but I really don't think they're going to get "blown out of the water" by DirecTV's massive HD channel push.

Plus, cable can offer telco and internet, don't underestimate the value of that one bill/one cable scenario.

Thinking of making the switch from Charter to DirecTV because of all the HD channels they say they are adding (the 12 or so I get isn't enough). On the phone yesterday with D* they told me "Spring 2007" for the first wave of HD channels, which they said would be about 60.

Granted, this was a sales person trying to pitch D* to me, but that's what they said as of yesterday.

As I stated in several other threads

1) Every single person I know has atleast 1 CableReady TV located somewhere without a Cable STB in their house (whether in kitchen, bathroom, kids room etc).

2) When you add a digital STB there is a $5+ charge that they do not pay now.

3) Subs do not like the delay in the changing channel with digital stbs

4) You loose all PIP capability when the Analogs go away

5) There are still many more subs bringing in much more money with analog channels than there are those who are upset about lack of HD Channels - especially as half the HD Viewers do not have HD Channels and only watch stretched 480 on their sets

Which all leads to them eliminating one of their inherent advantages over DBS. The fact that virtually all houses are "cable-ready" out of the gate with access to programming in all rooms without any extra perceived cost.

I don't see that happening anytime soon.

Any current info on the transition plan and timing of D* moving from the 5 lnb supersized dish to a scaled down version after restacking the satellite deck up there? My concern going to mpeg4 is primarlily my reluctance to go with this huge dish but I can't see waiting long in viewing the 25-60 new HD channels.

Does anyone know what and when DirecTV will adding more HD programing?
I've sent them a note about over compression. I've noticed on non HD channels they are way over compressing the signal. I am looking forward to seeing more HD channels.

After the two new satellites go up (probably this summer) -- so 3Q is about all DirecTV is saying.

That doesn't mean they won't add one or two more before then, but that would probably be the most optimistic possibility.

Thinking of making the switch from Charter to DirecTV because of all the HD channels they say they are adding (the 12 or so I get isn't enough). On the phone yesterday with D* they told me "Spring 2007" for the first wave of HD channels, which they said would be about 60.

Granted, this was a sales person trying to pitch D* to me, but that's what they said as of yesterday.


that's a complete and utter made up lie.

Neither sat is likelty to go up before June and even if they get them tested and running quickly it's likley about a month after that till they can use them. So earliest is July. And that would probably be a tad on the optimistic side.

Any current info on the transition plan and timing of D* moving from the 5 lnb supersized dish to a scaled down version after restacking the satellite deck up there? My concern going to mpeg4 is primarlily my reluctance to go with this huge dish but I can't see waiting long in viewing the 25-60 new HD channels.

Much of the size of the dish has to do with Ka needing a bigger reflector than Ku, so dumping 110/119 ku isn't likely to do much. 110 and 119 are also used for certain markets SD locals- directv is not likley to move all locals to Ka for quite some time (if ever). For locals that have HD feeds wont likely be a problem since theose will probably be Ka eventually, but not every station has plans to go HD and those that choose not to will likley only be on Ku for a while.

With all this space how many different versions of CDUSA can they add?

... Some of that spectrum will be used for internet and phone, maybe 1 6MHz QAM256 slot at the most I would think, possibly a few more, 5-6 for VOD, etc.
....


so phone and interent only need one slot- that's not much at all....

But I am curious if that will be 60, 80, 100, or 120. So to me it IS relevant.
Ok, that is a valid point. I should have been more specific. What I was trying to say, is that no one really knows how many new HD channels will be available. There are simply too many variables to factor in.

For example, look at what was announced last week, with zero public advance notice. Now think about the number of existing SD channels. A lot of possibilities.

It will be interesting to see what shakes out, but I think the D* announcement has opened the flood gates in the transition from SD to HD...I think within 1-2 years, the majority of "major" SD channels will have a HD counterpart...Does D* get to the point where it drops the SD counterparts? Is it possible to downrez and letter box the HD feed to folks with only SD sets?

It was all about someone being able to carry them...as so far D* is the only one in the short term w/ capacity (Fios as well, I guess).

Again, I am crossing my fingers it all goes smooth (launches, etc)...but D* knows they can rule the HD world (probably for a couple years minimum) as I jsut cant imagaine how Comcast, Time Warner can provide all these channels with their current technology...and they simply cant launch a couple sats to fix the problem...they gotta lay wire...and that takes time...

so phone and interent only need one slot- that's not much at all....
I don't know the exact details, but to the best of my knowledge, that's pretty close. With some outboard QAM tuner devices like the SiliconDust HDHomerun you can see that the internet slot can sometimes use up to a full QAM256 slot and this is probably related to some Comcast subs getting 20mbps or better internet connections. Phone doesn't take much space at all, maybe the balance of that same QAM slot. As far as bandwidth utilization goes, a pretty profitable deal. :)

Ok, that is a valid point. I should have been more specific. What I was trying to say, is that no one really knows how many new HD channels will be available. There are simply too many variables to factor in.

For example, look at what was announced last week, with zero public advance notice. Now think about the number of existing SD channels. A lot of possibilities.
Just today there was an article talking about Malone/Liberty possibly acquiring Rainbow Media from Cablevision, there's a potential 20-25 HD channels(Voom, RSNs, etc.) right there.

Just today there was an article about Malone/Liberty acquiring Rainbow Media from Cablevision, there's a potential 20-25 HD channels(Voom, RSNs, etc.) right there.

Do you have a link for that article by any chance?

Do you have a link for that article by any chance?
fredfa's HOTP thread.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9506037#post9506037
Hot Off The Press! The Latest Television News and Info - AVS Forum

I also re-posted it in one of the DirecTV threads here but I don't recall which one it was.

I will edit the my above post to "talk about acquiring" as it was originally posted it's a bit misleading.

It will be interesting to see what shakes out, but I think the D* announcement has opened the flood gates in the transition from SD to HD...I think within 1-2 years, the majority of "major" SD channels will have a HD counterpart...Does D* get to the point where it drops the SD counterparts? Is it possible to downrez and letter box the HD feed to folks with only SD sets?

Sure, I watch the HD channels on my old bedroom tv with the H20, in glorious 480i.

It works fine. The ironic thing is if they did this, the people with the old 4:3 SD sets would either have black bars on top/bottom or they have to vertically stretch to get rid of the black bars. Finally, those of us with 16:9 screens wouldn't have to deal with that.

I believe there is no way to know as you point out. But people who have MPEG$ report that in general the channels look just as good as OTA broadcast.

Someone around here has posted about doing test patterns on the D* MPEG4 LIL's and that the 1080i based stations have some issues (IIRCC) so that could be the flip side.

Also, there's an interview with a dierectv technology guy form D* floating around where he dances around the question of MPEG4 LIL quality and the whole "HD-lite" thing. But what is interesting is he sort of implies that they are working at putting in MPEG4 encoders right at the stations to grab the high bitrate feed BEFORE it gets compressed for OTA MPEG2 and if that is posible that Directv might actual have better PQ then OTA. There's a post or 2 floating around about a cable company in upstate NY that does a similar thing with the Local PBS so it's not unheard of for a provider to get the high bit rate signal at the source to do better then OTA.

take that all as you will...


Yes, I think in that interview, he just kinda, maybe hinted at better than OTA, which I took to be 1080P but I can not imagine how that would be possible.

This is all a game of hopscotch. D* makes vague announcements. Cable will try to match. They'll all try to keep us hanging on a string just long enough to keep us from switching from one technology to the other. I expect grand announcements approximately every 6 months, just in time to keep you from switching. Kinda like what the cellular companies did with their 3G "broadband" data rollout. Throw in ATT Uverse as a wild card and it will be interesting times the next couple years.

(yeah, I know ATT bashers will complain only bandwidth for 1 HD channel per home, but what if ATT brokers deals with all the HD channels currently available... On their initial launch they already have more HD's than my current cableco....)

(yeah, I know ATT bashers will complain only bandwidth for 1 HD channel per home, but what if ATT brokers deals with all the HD channels currently available... On their initial launch they already have more HD's than my current cableco....)

what if?...what if don't mean jack if I can't watch tv at my own convenience, so yes, the one stream of bandwidth is a HUGE issue.