I can't believe how far we are behind Europe. In the UK, for example, all five of the terestrial channels broadcast ALL content at 16:9 (at a minimum - they even broadcast some content at what looks to be 2.35:1!).

Why am I still having to look a pukey grey sidebars or stretch the edges of my picture to give a full screen image? :(

Sorry if this has come up before. I did a search and didn't find anyone ranting about this. :o

When will it all be 16:9?????
Never because of OAR. ;)

I can't believe how far we are behind Europe. In the UK, for example, all five of the terestrial channels broadcast ALL content at 16:9 (at a minimum - they even broadcast some content at what looks to be 2.35:1!).

Why am I still having to look a pukey grey sidebars or stretch the edges of my picture to give a full screen image? :(

Sorry if this has come up before. I did a search and didn't find anyone ranting about this. :o

The UK is almost universally 16:9 because we didn't go HD as early as the US, and instead went from PAL composite analogue 4:3 to Digital Component 16:9 production and distribution in the late 90s, with most mainstream broadcasters (i.e. BBC, ITV, C4, Five and Sky) going pretty nearly universally 16:9 for original content by 2002-2004ish. (The exception being ITV News who are still 4:3 in production terms) Ironically - the first 16:9 outlet in the UK was BBC News 24 - which launched with 16:9 production in Nov 1997 - and was available domestically in 16:9 24/7 in Nov 1998 when the BBC digital platforms launched (prior to this News 24 was on analogue cable and BBC One analogue terrestrial overnight)

However whilst we are 16:9 SD for almost everything domestically (and PAL composite is almost universally a distant memory) - we are far from being close to HD universally, with only high-end drama, and some entertainment and documentary (and this is really only the BBC) being in HD.

Given that all European HD displays are 16:9 - and pretty much all SD displays over 21" diagonals have also been 16:9 for the last 5 years or so - I think that universal 16:9 production and broadcast is a good thing - but I'd obviously prefer that the SD 16:9 stuff was HD!

Color took well over a decade to become mainstream in the US, and that didn't require parallel systems, aspect ratio change and a shutoff. By the time shutoff occurs, I think 16:9 will be the norm in the US. Networks do not want to support both SD and HD distribution and are working for a single system. CRTs will likely all but disappear, and other technologies are steadily dropping in price. OTH, there is such a huge amount of legacy 4:3 programming that it will be with us indefinitely. OAR is a good thing.

Not to mention we have a whole lot more channels in the US. I don't see RFD-TV going 16x9 any time soon, much less HD.

ATSC supports 16:9 480i.

The UK is almost universally 16:9 because we didn't go HD as early as the US, and instead went from PAL composite analogue 4:3 to Digital Component 16:9 production and distribution in the late 90s, with most mainstream broadcasters (i.e. BBC, ITV, C4, Five and Sky) going pretty nearly universally 16:9 for original content by 2002-2004ish. (The exception being ITV News who are still 4:3 in production terms) Ironically - the first 16:9 outlet in the UK was BBC News 24 - which launched with 16:9 production in Nov 1997 - and was available domestically in 16:9 24/7 in Nov 1998 when the BBC digital platforms launched (prior to this News 24 was on analogue cable and BBC One analogue terrestrial overnight)

However whilst we are 16:9 SD for almost everything domestically (and PAL composite is almost universally a distant memory) - we are far from being close to HD universally, with only high-end drama, and some entertainment and documentary (and this is really only the BBC) being in HD.

Given that all European HD displays are 16:9 - and pretty much all SD displays over 21" diagonals have also been 16:9 for the last 5 years or so - I think that universal 16:9 production and broadcast is a good thing - but I'd obviously prefer that the SD 16:9 stuff was HD!

I was unaware of this but it does perhaps solve a mystery I encountered the other night. I tuned into the premiere of Ricky Gervais' "Extras" season 2 on HBO HD and it was being broadcast letterboxed. I thought it was strange that a 16:9 show be broadcast that way on HBOs HD outlet. Is "Extras", which is clearly shot 16:9 not an HD show? How was it broadcast in the UK?

I was unaware of this but it does perhaps solve a mystery I encountered the other night. I tuned into the premiere of Ricky Gervais' "Extras" season 2 on HBO HD and it was being broadcast letterboxed. I thought it was strange that a 16:9 show be broadcast that way on HBOs HD outlet. Is "Extras", which is clearly shot 16:9 not an HD show? How was it broadcast in the UK?

Extras is shot 16:9 SD 576/50i and flickered to 576/25p in post-production to give it a "film look" (in a similar manner to the original BBC "The Office" series. The sit com elements in series 2 are left 50i, as many sit coms in the UK are shot and delivered in 50i rather than 25p, so it looks more authentic keeping this 50i. Can't remember if the "film" bits are shot on film or not.

I had initially expected it to have been shot in 1080/25p HD - as it was an HBO co-pro - but it isn't. (There was an article by the DoP in one of the industry magazines about it recently)

It was broadcast 16:9 full-height anamorphic in the UK - not letterbox.

Not to mention we have a whole lot more channels in the US. I don't see RFD-TV going 16x9 any time soon, much less HD.

Yep - though we have a pretty large number in the UK these days - and on satellite and cable the bulk of them are still 4:3 - though often carrying 14':9 letterboxed material.

All of the main networks (those run by BBC, ITV, C4 and Five) are 16:9 pretty universally for original commissions. Sky is 16:9 on many of their channels - including Sky News and Sky One - and we get to see a lot of Sky's US imports in 16:9 as a result. There are also quite a few 16:9 home shopping networks, and a few 16:9 music channels.

However most of the other non-HD pay TV services are still 4:3 (with letterboxing when required) - the MTV networks, the Flextech UKTV channels, Discovery, Nat Geo, Hallmark etc., are all still 4:3.

That's why I was sure to point out that is was the terestrial channels I was speaking of.

One of the last things that may have originated in 4:3, and I think even that changed since Xmas because I haven't noticed it of late, were the weather segments during GMTV. There was always a noticeable jump in the picture when they switched from one to the other.

Now with the feed I get and the fact that my TV is nearly always set to stretch the picture out to 16:9, I can't really differentiate wether or not that was actually the case, but it was always the impression I got based on how the picture changed.

Why am I still having to look a pukey grey sidebars or stretch the edges of my picture to give a full screen image? :(



Yea my reluctance to watch 4:3 material stretch just made my HD RPTV start to show burn-in after about 3 years of use of 4:3 SD programming (I also watched a lot of HD and Widescreen DVD).

If everything was in Widescreen I would have enjoyed my TV a lot longer. Now I started to strecth my SD programming :eek: .

I hope that will slow down the damge.

ATSC supports 16:9 480i.

Tell that to the CE manufacturers........... :mad: .

I "think" I might have seen one 16:9 SDTV set (about $399) at BB yesterday. Anyone know of any others?

I was thinking of display on a HD set. I've not seen 16:9 SD implemented on an ATSC broadcast, so I have no idea what level of compatibility there is with consumer receivers.

Fox affiliates were broadcasting 16:9 SD before they went HD and I don't remember any ATSC receivers having a problem with it.

16:9 480i or p is apart of the ATSC standard and TVs have no problem with it.

Fox affiliates were broadcasting 16:9 SD before they went HD and I don't remember any ATSC receivers having a problem with it.

Last season they did a lot of their baseball games this way. The playoffs were the only time the baseball games were all HD.

Cops also appears to be SD 16:9

Last season they did a lot of their baseball games this way. The playoffs were the only time the baseball games were all HD.

Cops also appears to be SD 16:9That was a production standard. The material was upconverted to 720P for network and broadcast transmission.

I knew Fox was using 16:9 480P, but I didn't know there was WS 480i. As 16:9 screens become more common, we may see digital SD channels use this aspect ratio.

Those 16:9 SD shows are upconverted to 720p and are not shown in 480i or p on the digital channel. Before FOX did HD, they did 16:9 480p and there were no problems since 480p is set up for 16:9 while 480i has the option of either 4:3 or 16:9.

Last season they did a lot of their baseball games this way. The playoffs were the only time the baseball games were all HD.

Cops also appears to be SD 16:9
But these shows are being upconverted and broadcast in 720p. The receivers are displaying 720p unlike before Fox went HD when they had been receiving 480p.

But these shows are being upconverted and broadcast in 720p. The receivers are displaying 720p unlike before Fox went HD when they had been receiving 480p.

Either way, it isn't HD. One thing I hate about my TV is that it upconverts everything to 720p, so 4:3 programs broadcast in 480i/p get stretched and there is nothing I can do about it.

it drives me nuts when I know that a show was shot in 16:9, HD or not, but it is broadcast in 4:3 with the sides cut off and there is no channel even available to watch the 16:9 picture on my widescreen TV. Monk is an example of this (I wait to rent DVDs), so are other USA network shows and a lot of syndicated shows...

I hope broadcasters use the ATSC aspect ratio flags correctly when they're digital-only.

it drives me nuts when I know that a show was shot in 16:9, HD or not, but it is broadcast in 4:3 with the sides cut off and there is no channel even available to watch the 16:9 picture on my widescreen TV. Monk is an example of this (I wait to rent DVDs), so are other USA network shows and a lot of syndicated shows...

I hope broadcasters use the ATSC aspect ratio flags correctly when they're digital-only.

I see a lot of local commercials shot that way, I guess somehow they think that having the 16:9 ratio in a 4:3 frame makes them look more expensive, more advanced? With the increase of widescreen TV's, watching windowbox shows is annoying and makes them look cheap.

Either way, it isn't HD.
The question was whether or not recievers can properly display an ATSC SD broadcast in 16:9, not whether or not upconverted SD is HD. The receiver does not know the HD it's displaying has come from an upconverted source.

Extras is shot 16:9 SD 576/50i and flickered to 576/25p in post-production to give it a "film look" (in a similar manner to the original BBC "The Office" series. The sit com elements in series 2 are left 50i, as many sit coms in the UK are shot and delivered in 50i rather than 25p, so it looks more authentic keeping this 50i. Can't remember if the "film" bits are shot on film or not.

I had initially expected it to have been shot in 1080/25p HD - as it was an HBO co-pro - but it isn't. (There was an article by the DoP in one of the industry magazines about it recently)

It was broadcast 16:9 full-height anamorphic in the UK - not letterbox.

Thanks. Guess that means I'll be watching it early, on demand. No reason waiting around for an HD broadcast when there isn't going to be one.

That was a production standard. The material was upconverted to 720P for network and broadcast transmission.

I knew Fox was using 16:9 480P, but I didn't know there was WS 480i. As 16:9 screens become more common, we may see digital SD channels use this aspect ratio.
Before HD, FOX used 601 digital, component 480i for network transmission, which was deinterlaced at local stations in most cases to 480p for local broadcast. In some cases local FOX stations upconverted to 720p.

Now, post Splicer, all network programs are sent to local stations in 720p, native or upconverted.

The Fox network source may have been 601, but that is uncompressed 270 Mb/s. I doubt that bitrate was sent to the stations. Even now the network feed with the bitrate increase is just under 74 Mb/s. It was likely MPEG 2 as all networks are presently using.

The Fox network source may have been 601, but that is uncompressed 270 Mb/s. I doubt that bitrate was sent to the stations. Even now the network feed with the bitrate increase is just under 74 Mb/s. It was likely MPEG 2 as all networks are presently using.

The 74 Mbps transponder contains all of the HD and SD feeds for all time zones.

The 480p feed was indeed an mpeg stream and was decoded in the receiver and output as 270 Mbs, 601.

The answer to the question, "Do consumer TVs support 480i widescreen?" is, yes. The fact that you can watch widescreen DVDs on those sets would tell you that.

Can the sets automatically switch from 4:3 to 16:9 on a ATSC WS 480i stream?

Can the sets automatically switch from 4:3 to 16:9 on a ATSC WS 480i stream?

depends on the internal tuner. My Sony HD DVR does this fine, but my Westinghouse TV's tuner likes to stretch all programing sent in 480i/p to fill the screen. A lot of ATSC stations are broadcasting 480i/p and my TV (waste of money) stretches it.

I'm having trouble finding any newer STBs that will display 480i 16:9 properly on a 4:3 set.

They all seem to lose the letterbox, and go to full vertical height picture with sidebars.....making everyone look like a seven-foot tall anorexic.

If you stop and think about it, that is what is suppose to happen since if you are going 16:9 480i, it more than likely isn't a 16:9 HD set and you would need a little "zoom'" or some way to center cut.

I'm having trouble finding any newer STBs that will display 480i 16:9 properly on a 4:3 set.

They all seem to lose the letterbox, and go to full vertical height picture with sidebars.....making everyone look like a seven-foot tall anorexic.

I have an LG LST-3510A that allows you to set "letterbox, cropped, squeezed, set by program" so that you can view OTA and QAM sources properly (or improperly). It will actually let you view a 4:3 480i program letterbox if you so desire.

If you stop and think about it, that is what is suppose to happen since if you are going 16:9 480i, it more than likely isn't a 16:9 HD set and you would need a little "zoom'" or some way to center cut.
Why not letterbox it? That's what my cable box sends out of the s-video port when tuned to HD channels.

I wouldn't be too worried about it for The US market since you are now moving towards high definition which is a better option in the long term.

Here (Australia), just like I was saying in the Australian Open thread, we have everything in 16:9 with the exception of older shows that were originally 4:3 and things such as NBC Today, Good Morning America and The CBS Early News (they are on around 4am-6am). Strange since Letterman is now high definition each night so it can happen. I guess there aren't enough viewers to justify the costs as it is.

We get all news, sports, movies, documentaries, and every other program in at least 576i widescreen or 1080i high definition and have for many years now. It is great as you can get a cheaper TV and STB for around AU$700 and see everything in widescreen digital.

For those who are unsure, all stations have a SD and HD feed running together with the same content (upconverted on HD or native depending on program) so it sucks the bandwidth. The two stations that use 1080i (one is 1440x1080i, the other 1920x1080i) run at only 13-14.8Mbps and that isn't the best but better than nothing.

When we finally switch off Analogue (hopefully 2012 now), this will hopefully change but running SD, HD, a Guide and others doesn't leave much room for quality. The only other station runs 1x720p, 2x576i, 1xGuide and 2xdigital radio - rather impressive for what they have.

Back to the topic at hand, with the UK also going HD recently, it shouldn't be too long before 16:9 is the World standard.