I know this is really off topic but I am so stoked about it I couldn't help myself. I made a deal with a local Dodge dealership today to have first option on this when it comes out next year. The dealership I am working with is expecting to only be able to order one. :D :D

http://www.dodgeboy.net/news/challenger/index.htm

Yep you couldn't be more off topic could you? :)

It looks more like a customized real classic show car than a redone new vehicle. Like a Chip Foose design as in the Foose 69 : http://www.chipfoose.com/gallery.aspx?LinkID=tn7

It's cool, don't get me wrong, but it's a Dodge.
When I think of Dodge I think of Al Bundy. :)

Gas will be $5.00 a gallon or more soon you know.

Go Bundy!

Troy

Dude, for your sake, I hope they improved it over the original - I had one. Can you say Dodge Dart? Bigger engine, cooler body....uh - that was it. ;) But it looks cool, if it works for ya..I traded mine for a goat. But I wouldn't want a reissue goat either.

Prometheusbound,
I think that looks absolutely fantastic! Congratulations to you BTW.

I have always thought that the styling of cars peaked in the 60's and early 70's. Back then you could see the difference between a Dodge, Ford or Chevy and the cars actually looked nice.

um, you mean like this?? :D :D

Prometheusbound,
I think that looks absolutely fantastic! Congratulations to you BTW.

I have always thought that the styling of cars peaked in the 60's and early 70's. Back then you could see the difference between a Dodge, Ford or Chevy and the cars actually looked nice.


Thanks Bob!

From what I understand Chevy is going to have a retro Camaro in 2009.

I have seen the new Camaro, it looks like a Dodge front end and the rest Mustang. They are supposed to come out with the retro VW Bus too.

Deron.

Everything works on that car but the rear end. It nees a short wing like the option on the original or a trunk lip spoiler.

Funny how Chrysler did a bit of back peddling after the cold reception people gave the Charger for looking like an intrepid breaded with a Dakota and a crew cab at that. When I saw the four door Charger at the 2005 autoshow all I could say was Man...it has 4 doors. Jeeze.. this has 4 doors. The guy at the show said "It has a HEMI!" I said yeah but it has 4 doors! What's the point?

Then out comes the Challenger and all is right again.

Congratulations on the first buy option. I bet you can't wait.

---------------------------------------------------------
MoPar or no car baby!

You do know Peak Oil is coming? Sometime between now and 2020ish the S will really HTF.

Every gallon you guzzle now is stolen from your children...when they'll really, really need it.

So, can you get an electric version?

Hehe,

I used to love old Mopars. Now, it's pj's. But,.. I can still enjoy other peoples neato cars and that does look nice.

Personally,.. It's all Honda for me these days and I'll never buy an american car again if I'm lucky. Japan is taking over my life with the cars and the pj and the ps3 and SACD player and....

Yep you couldn't be more off topic could you? :)

Troy


Not true!

It's got projector headlights ;) Perhaps this thread belongs in the >$20k Digitals forum! (Altho, the inboard headlights DO look like they may be liquid coupled :D )

You do know Peak Oil is coming? Sometime between now and 2020ish the S will really HTF.

Every gallon you guzzle now is stolen from your children...when they'll really, really need it.

So, can you get an electric version?

I'm pretty sure the windows are electric. :D

Everything works on that car but the rear end. It nees a short wing like the option on the original or a trunk lip spoiler.

Funny how Chrysler did a bit of back peddling after the cold reception people gave the Charger for looking like an intrepid breaded with a Dakota and a crew cab at that. When I saw the four door Charger at the 2005 autoshow all I could say was Man...it has 4 doors. Jeeze.. this has 4 doors. The guy at the show said "It has a HEMI!" I said yeah but it has 4 doors! What's the point?

Then out comes the Challenger and all is right again.

Congratulations on the first buy option. I bet you can't wait.

---------------------------------------------------------
MoPar or no car baby!

I totally agree. When I saw the new Charger I thought "You've got to be kidding me. What a joke." The 4 - door only policy really cost them sales, I think. They must have known that most of the Mopar Muscle car fans were going to hate it.

Hehe,

I used to love old Mopars. Now, it's pj's. But,.. I can still enjoy other peoples neato cars and that does look nice.

Personally,.. It's all Honda for me these days and I'll never buy an american car again if I'm lucky. Japan is taking over my life with the cars and the pj and the ps3 and SACD player and....

I have always had a thing for musclecar Mopars. I also have always had a thing for technology. These retro cars being built by the big three give guys like me a chance to own something that has the external styling of the 60 era combined with the technology of the 21st century. What I'm talking about mostly concerning technology is saftey. These cars are built better than there predecessors. Airbags, safety belts, crush points, modern vehicles are just better. My 67 dart vert has a lap belt but thats it. No shoulder harness, no crush points, and the seat back does not lock in the up position. On the passenger side the dash is metal. While I love this car it actually scares me to drive it. It's just not safe.

All that being said, my daily driver is a Prius! :D

Hehe,

I used to love old Mopars. Now, it's pj's. But,.. I can still enjoy other peoples neato cars and that does look nice.

Personally,.. It's all Honda for me these days and I'll never buy an american car again if I'm lucky. Japan is taking over my life with the cars and the pj and the ps3 and SACD player and....

for me its Toyota - better hybrids, and local Honda dealer is the worst. (Had 3 Hondas, til management changed.) Won't trade the Miata tho - really don't miss the Challenger, GTO, or Firebird that much - would have to add any two together to get the same mileage numbers, not to mention fun.

I do run American Iron for my preamp and power amp, not to mention speakers. :D (Hafler, Maggies, and Mesa)

Prometheus - when you go on a road trip, swing by - wouldn't mind seeing a new muscle car. Really wasn't impressed by either the Charger or the new Holden GTO - would like to see one done right.

I have a nicely restored Lime Green 72 Challenger in the garage, drove it once or twice in 06. I saw the new charger Hemi Daytona at a Costco, thoguht it was a beautiful car, don't know why people are so bothered by that little half-door in the back?
What did bug me me was the build sheet, chassis built in Canada (a good thing quality wise), 5-speed tranny from Germany (ditto), but the Hemi engine was made in MEXICO , WTF? :eek: So much for the classic Amercian Muscle car huh? The new challeneger is beautiful but with 7 Billion people in the world all fighting for what oil is left I just don't see a place for it.

If ya'll really believe all that politicians gum flapping about oil, then go corn gas or bio diesel. Then the farmers of the Midwest could power the nation. If you don't want to do that then I don't really want to here another word about oil or hybrids. The politicians are full of crap and I'll bet my kids future that there is more than enough oil to power all the billions of people well into the next ice age. I don't understand how 700 pounds of lead acid batteries are environmentally friendly not to mention that manufacturing that goes into that sort of mess.

I have a 1986 Dodge omni that never ever for any reason gets less than 35 mpg. And thanks to its lightly modified 2.5 L engine and turbo will consistently run mid 12's at 110 mph or better. With some calibration work it has got way better than 40 mpg. Oh and don't forget it is all very 80's tech with SOHC engine designed in the late 70's.

Those VW desiels can crank out some pretty impressive MPG and power numbers but the tree huggers always seem to miss these. Those little things have been getting better than 50 mpg on veggie oil since the 80s

Its snowing in California..... and I'll bet if AL Gore would shut his fat mouth and all its hot air this global warming wouldn't be such a problem. Since none of the brilliant (j/k) minds can figure out what caused the last 6 ice ages to freeze and then thaw. Or why the hottest years on current record happened in the 1930's


GET THE CHALLENGER AND I'LL SEE YA AT THE TRACK.

ronholm,

I still have the tool for changing the hydrolic valve lifters on my old Omni (worked on a few FrontWD chargers and a shadow I had too.) I don't suppose I still need it, then again.. I bet you already have one.

My (84?) Omni was $450 at a surplus sale and lasted quite a long time.

My Duster was a 74' slant six and was $200 and my favorite car of all time and the best car ever but I total-ed head on with a tree on a poorly lit street early one morning and nearly killed myself in the process. What a bummer. (My wife thinks I'll still restore a 74 duster some day when I'm older because it's the car we dated in as teens but then... she hasn't seen the prices lately. :) )

I can certainly relate to the love of Mopar but love of VPH suits me much better now.

-Brian

p.s. I still get a little kick out of the fact that my 2 Hondas are HEMI's. :)

(That is to say, they use hemispherical induction for top performance.)

One thing the bigger heavy cars had going for them was mass, run into something and it will not come to a dead stop as fast a lighter car. Then of course it's more likely to hold it's shape, not turning into a unrecognizable (after a crash) knees to your chest econmy car.

Just heard that the cost of corn tortilla's has gone through the roof, this has really impacted a large population in the south that relies on corn and beans as a staple for their diet. When you only have $4.00 a day to spend on survival and the greedy Gringo's are turning corn into something to burn in their cars, it's just not right! At least when you burn oil you are not taking food out of people's mouths.

Deron.

I can't wait for this car to come out. Not sure if I want Purple Plum or Orange. wow.

Just heard that the cost of corn tortilla's has gone through the roof, this has really impacted a large population in the south that relies on corn and beans as a staple for their diet. When you only have $4.00 a day to spend on survival and the greedy Gringo's are turning corn into something to burn in their cars, it's just not right! At least when you burn oil you are not taking food out of people's mouths.

:eek: :D

If ya'll really believe all that politicians gum flapping about oil, then go corn gas or bio diesel. Then the farmers of the Midwest could power the nation. If you don't want to do that then I don't really want to here another word about oil or hybrids.
Peroleum is used to crate everything you need just to get corn. Nitrogen Fertilizer is 100% petroleum product, so is the tires, fluids and fuel in the tractors and harvesters. When you consider the amount of petroleum based energy needed to manufacture the farming equipment, grow the corn, harvest it, grind it and ferment it, then distill back down into Ethanol you have used more energy than the Ethanol can provide back.
I love Corn for food but to think you can grow it to power the world is complete ignorance. Maybe it's time people get more edumacated about Energy in general?

Peroleum is used to crate everything you need just to get corn. Nitrogen Fertilizer is 100% petroleum product, so is the tires, fluids and fuel in the tractors and harvesters. When you consider the amount of petroleum based energy needed to manufacture the farming equipment, grow the corn, harvest it, grind it and ferment it, then distill back down into Ethanol you have used more energy than the Ethanol can provide back.
I love Corn for food but to think you can grow it to power the world is complete ignorance. Maybe it's time people get more edumacated about Energy in general?

Very funny but misleading. Each bushel of corn can produce 2.8 gallons of ethanol. A farmer yields 225 to 250 bushels per acre, that he used to sell for $2 a bushel. If they can make money by using corn for food they sure as hell can make money producing enough corn for 700 gallons of ethanol per acre. Average Iowa farms probably are about 1500 acres. That's 1 million gallons of ethanol. I'll bet they only use 2000 gallons of fuel and 1 set of tires (every five years!) and a small amount of fertilizer compared to the ethanol produced.

The diesel engine in the tractor would run on corn gas as well as the mills and blah blah blah

I don't really know enough about this to be an expert. Bio Willie is for sale in Texas. Is is a diesel / cotton seed oil blend. They Harvest the cotton and use in in normal fashion. then take the lint (waste) and extract the seed. Then extract oil from the seed. At last check the blend was priced just below the cost of reg diesel. I heard though that the company was having some cash flow issue while trying to open a new refinery in The New Orleans area. Conceptually it really sounded great all local production of the fuel. But hey a lot of things Willie Nelson was involved with sounded great my wouldn't move my but down the highway.

GREEDY GRINGOS WHAT THE HECK

if it wasn't for us greedy gringos Those poor minded hard working folks wouldn't have a country to break into and rob our hospitals and welfare. OR the ones we see roofing wouldn't have any tax free money to send back home. But Hey what the heck do I know....... I run a All LEGAL construction Co forced to compete with folks that regularly break laws already on our books. Jeez I hope you were kidding


But see the kind of issues we are developing in our country. I mean all this just because a guy was proud of his option on a really cool car.

we've got plenty of cheap energy out here, but I doubt that you want a steampowered car :D

awesome car BTW.

I love Corn for food but to think you can grow it to power the world is complete ignorance. Maybe it's time people get more edumacated about Energy in general?


:mad: See politics at work to people working towards the same solution can't work through the problem solving stage together. Maybe I was a little hard on the battery powered Go-Kart and its highly toxic batteries. But come ON I understand completely that it may not power the world, but if it replaced 1/4 of the Petrol usage it would be a Big step right??????????

I me come on bring back family farming where kids learned how to work and people focus on things that are more important than Paris HOR ton and their stupid ipod. I mean you can't work in and around nature without learning a little something about life. Those benefits plus an alternative to oil.... Seems like a no brainer to me. Might even get a bunch of these farmers trying to make it, off the welfare side of the tax bracket.

Very funny but misleading. Each bushel of corn can produce 2.8 gallons of ethanol. A farmer yields 225 to 250 bushels per acre, that he used to sell for $2 a bushel. If they can make money by using corn for food they sure as hell can make money producing enough corn for 700 gallons of ethanol per acre. Average Iowa farms probably are about 1500 acres. That's 1 million gallons of ethanol. I'll bet they only use 2000 gallons of fuel and 1 set of tires (every five years!) and a small amount of fertilizer compared to the ethanol produced.
You miscalculating the amount of energy required to distill something. The energy conversion rate's have proven to be a lose/lose situation in regards to Ethanol. IF it was so great they would be doing a lot more of it. Unfortunately it's simply a feel-good measure which is what politicians are best at.

:mad: See politics at work to people working towards the same solution can't work through the problem solving stage together. Maybe I was a little hard on the battery powered Go-Kart and its highly toxic batteries. But come ON I understand completely that it may not power the world, but if it replaced 1/4 of the Petrol usage it would be a Big step right??????????
new batteries are not not toxic lead/acid anymore, they're fairly innocuous Lithium. I'm all in favor of reducing our petrol dependency by 1/4 or 1/2, but there's too many gas guzzling monster trucks and Dodge Challengers on the road. :)

I me come on bring back family farming where kids learned how to work and people focus on things that are more important than Paris HOR ton and their stupid ipod. I mean you can't work in and around nature without learning a little something about life. Those benefits plus an alternative to oil.... Seems like a no brainer to me. Might even get a bunch of these farmers trying to make it, off the welfare side of the tax bracket. I love the family farm, too bad it died in Washington DC along with a lot of other things this country used to stand for. When you have Democracy for sale to the highest bidder and the highest bidder is Exxon-Mobile then there's not much room left for the family farm :(

I love the family farm, too bad it died in Washington DC along with a lot of other things this country used to stand for. When you have Democracy for sale to the highest bidder and the highest bidder is Exxon-Mobile then there's not much room left for the family farm :(


I knew we agreed more than we disagreed.

The Constitution we used in its full word for word as it was written state doesn't allow for 90 % of the BS we see in the white house on the Ted Turners Commie networks every night. The FED's should assemble and run a Military to protect our Borders, Language and Culture. Print some Money and thats its. This Screwy social Screw the working guy Security BS is unconstitutional and should be stopped. Welfare, gun control, SBA, Medicare its all a sham. We Have all Been to the DMV and dealt with the IRS. Do we really want these Politicians in charge of our retirement and health care. Yeah that would bring all best doctors from around the world flocking to become apart of that mess.

It is your own responsibility to take care of yourself. Once everyone realizes that and stops calling so jacka#$ lawyer every time they smoke a cig. jeez or spill some coffee... this will be a much better place. Then these self sufficient people instead of looking for handouts every time they turn around will be free to help lots of people. Basically stop taking money from hard working RICH folks, and handing it to BUMS on the street. Robin Hood was fun to watch but he didn't teach the poor folks anything. So without him they couldn't survive. Poor is a state of mind and the USA government should stop funding it. Teach a man to fish and he will eat for a lifetime

I think you and I probably disagree on the philosophy but the goal is the same right????? Get the Government out of my life. With a level playing field in todays economy small business would kick the snot out of big corps. Then this corn gas, or hybrids, or hydrogen tech, was going to work we would be free to figure it out. Cause if we didn't tax the richest among us at 50% they would be free to invest wisely in these potentially very profitable ideas.

Dragan is right, if you are not careful, the Return of Energy Returned over Energy Invested is less than one for Bio fuels. I think you end up needing to fertilize using fossils fuel after a few seasons, even if you plant a year with Legumes.

Hrotti, my boss is converting an old Nissan 240z to Steampower. For real - he's a steam nutter.



While some of you might not agree/see the need to change NOW, at least I have you thinking about these things.


Our kids - or at least grandkids, WILL be living in a world without oil, and 2 or 3 times the current population (at least for a little while...).

we've got plenty of cheap energy out here, but I doubt that you want a steampowered car :D

I would love to have a steampowered car but not the Challenger. I'm kind of into Stirling and heat engines. The small do nothing but rotate variety.


There are good points here on both sides of the fence. I personally have no idea what the REAL volume of crude is that is left in the world but I would not be suprised to find out that it is HUGE. Not the quantities that are declared. The real volumes. At any rate I also believe that viable alternative sources of energy or ways of stretching the oil to go much further have been invented many times over and then squashed, I have absolutely no doubt of this. When oil truly starts to get scarce something else will be "invented". Environmentally I am with you. I will not be one of those guys, like so many that I work with, that drive a Ford F350, or mega SUV to work. Environmental concerns were actually one of the main reasons I bought a Prius. At one tenth the pollution of the average vehicle they are pretty clean. The Mopar will be reserved for warm sunny days, going to the track, and the occasional road trip. :) I've just got to wait for a year. :(

Our kids - or at least grandkids, WILL be living in a world without oil, and 2 or 3 times the current population (at least for a little while...).

:eek: But too right.

And absolutely correct on ethanol being energy negative - tanstaafl. I too live in a farming state. Every logical study has figures showing that it takes more energy to make corn-based ethanol than one gets out of it. Only way one can make it a net gain is to use wind or other alternative power sources for the actual alcohol distillation process. And then you are still using more energy - you are simply using a renewable source in the process.

I drive a hybrid and a munchkin car (Miata.) Tell myself that saves enough energy to run a crt, all the associated gear, and 6000 watts of surround sound. :D

:eek: But too right.

And absolutely correct on ethanol being energy negative - tanstaafl. I too live in a farming state. Every logical study has figures showing that it takes more energy to make corn-based ethanol than one gets out of it. Only way one can make it a net gain is to use wind or other alternative power sources for the actual alcohol distillation process. And then you are still using more energy - you are simply using a renewable source in the process.

I drive a hybrid and a munchkin car (Miata.) Tell myself that saves enough energy to run a crt, all the associated gear, and 6000 watts of surround sound. :D

I had a Miata back in '95. It was blown and squeezed. 300hp. But more importantly tell us about your 6000 watt surround sound system! WOW!

[QUOTE=Prometheusbound]. I personally have no idea what the REAL volume of crude is that is left in the world but I would not be suprised to find out that it is HUGE. QUOTE]


There is between 1 trillion and 2 trillion barrels left. It depends who you believe. Everyone lies. It is in everyone's interest to overstate reserves - and you can never get it all out of a well, usually less than half.

OPEC countries use "creative accounting" because their quota is set by their reserve. So they all lie. Russia...who knows. Western oil companies have to protect share values...

We have used 1 trillion already - the easy trillion, the light sweet crude that comes out under pressure.

It took us from 1850 to 1970 to use 500 billion barrels. And from 1970 till now to use another 500 billion. And the demand is increasing at 2% per year....think about it as China and India gear up to be big consumers.

Now we are into our 2nd trillion, at 83 million barrels a day. That's 33 to 66 years....but it's not how much is left that is the possible problem - they'll always be some left. It's the cost of extraction that may bite. Despite recent high prices they were unable to ramp production above 83-85 Million barrels a day.

Oil is a blessing and a curse. Propulation explosion riding on the back of the oil "powered" Green farming Revolution of Industrial Agriculture...what happens to the 12 or 18 billion of us when the oil get's hard to extract...


And ONE TRILLION barrels of oil have ended up in the atmosphere, or pee'd down the drain (from fertilizer).


I think I have those numbers right, but I haven't checked them carefully.

There is talk that oil is being created as we speak. The theroy is that it is beaing made deep in the Earth and comes up to where we can get at it. If I remember correctly it was made from microbes or bacteria and cooked into oil.

One of the reasons this theroy is being explored is some oil fields that were left dry have started producing again. They felt the oil was coming from a much greater depth then could be explained with the Dinosaur theroy and replentishing the dry oil fields.


And yes I was not serious about the tortilla's problems in the south, just trying to point out that no matter what you do, someone is always going to complain or be effected.

Deron.

Just wanted to say, I called our electric company about purchasing wind power.
My household is now 100% wind powered, and the total cost is surprisingly less than you think. (Less than the cost for 1 tank of gas)
Wind may not be the answer, but it is a viable alternative - and I'm doing my part to support it.

I have a warm fuzzy now.

There have been no major oil field finds in the last 30 years. This is a proven fact. There is plenty of oil in wells that is not economically feasible to crack into gasoline. There is light sweet crude and heavy oil. It is the latter that makes the ashpahlt, shingles, and other products from this heavy crude. A new oil well will output a tremendous amount of oil without pressurizing the well with sea water or other means. As the output drops one needs to pressurize the well or drill an ajacent one in the area. This is where wells need to be carefully monitored. Abiotic oil is but a pipe dream as this would entail major finds of new oil within the earth. If this is so where is it??

The Middle East is where we still have abundant reserves. It's still cheap to produce; it's still extremely unexplored. So if the rest the world is long in the tooth thank Allah for Mecca. But are we so sure this is the truth? It turns out that the Middle East oil and gas so far is not all over the Middle East. The Middle East covers an enormous land mass, but all of the oil and gas as we know it today is compressed into an interesting golden triangle. And all the great finds happened years ago. In the past three decades exploration success has been modest in the Middle East abyss. Is this because no one looked very hard or because there's not much else to find? Here is the interesting golden triangle of the Middle East; If you start at Kirkuk in the north and you draw a line down through the great oil fields of Iran, going down south and come over six or seven hundred miles picking up the great fields of the UAE and come back up 800 miles to Kirkuk virtually every field of any size between 1909 and the late sixties is probably in that basin.

It turns out that Saudi Arabia has what they thought was a fabulous discovery outside that in 1989. By 2003 one field and five satellites needed gas injected to create flows to get about 200,000 barrels a day. So it's also interesting to take the United States and superimpose this same golden triangle on part of the United States on the part of the United States I grew up in. It basically covers most of Arizona and part of Utah, so it's not a very big area. So if all roads lead to Rome then one area, Saudi Arabia, is clearly home port. Saudi Arabia became the most important oil exporter once the U.S. peaked. Though also not trusted, Saudi Arabia has constantly tried to become the world's most trusted supplier of oil and they generally have done that. Saudi Arabia has assumed a virtually limitless amount of cheap oil. But let me tell you about some of Saudi Arabia's oil and gas challenges. In Saudi Arabia there have been no major exploration successes since the late sixties. Almost all of Saudi's production comes from a handful of very old fields. Almost every field has high and rising water pressure. Ghawar, the world's largest field injects seven million barrels a day of seawater to prop up reservoir pressure. And outside North Core hundred barrel days have been very hard to find. Some key fields have never worked out. Others have now watered out. And it takes utter logic to plan for Saudi Arabia's future.

M King Hubberts mathematical formula from the 60's has been as accurate as ever regarding peak oil. Once the petrodollar collapses, so to does the free ride we all enjoy in America. From freedom to fascism. :(

MAK

MAK

There is one reason that jumps out at me why not to find new oil fields. The less oil out on the market by different suppliers the more money you can make on a barrel of oil. Why go out and explore for oil, why not just restrict supply? OPEC tries to do this all the time to float the price of oil, who's to say that the industry as a whole does not do this to some extent? Thankfully there is some competition out there, otherwise we would be screwed.

That brings up another thing I think is happening, I believe the energy producers in this country want us to be as energy efficient as possible for more reasons then "saving the planet". One of them is they have to build less power plants. If they can get a city of people to save 25%-50% on their energy usage, they can then sell that excess generating capacity to other people moving in. What this also allows them to do is increase prices without their overhead going up. The reason for this is, people are willing to pay a certain amount of money for a given product, then they either go without or find a alternative. Guess what, if you were willing and paying $300.00 a month to heat the house, then you made the house more energy efficent so now you are paying $200.00, the place selling you the energy knows that you are willing to pay $300.00 so they are going to do their best to try to get that out of you.

Deron.

You do know Peak Oil is coming? Sorry, I have to comment on this. Everyone from the Wall Street Journal to people like Richard Branson as well as worlds top economists has called peak oil a complete scam. It's creating artificial scarcity. De beers has been doing it with diamonds for 100 years give or take.

Earlier this year Saudi Arabia reported increased crude reserves by around 200 billion barrels. Saudi Oil Is Secure and Plentiful,
Say Officials:

“These huge reserves enable the Kingdom to remain a major oil producer for between 70 and 100 years, even if it raises its production capacity to 15 million barrels per day, which may well happen during the next 15 years,” :eek:

Oops, someone forgot to tell the Saudis there is an oil shortage. :D

(I can't post the link to the story because I do not yet have 5 posts)



Every gallon you guzzle now is stolen from your children...when they'll really, really need it.

So, can you get an electric version? Nonsense I say! :D Since Neither you nor I know the answer for certain then we must rely on our own intuition to determan what group we are going to believe. I choose not to believe what the oil brokers tell me. :) After all, In 45 years have you ever heard Opec report anything but that we are short on oil?l... me either. :D

The sky is falling, the sky is falling!

:rolleyes:

SC

Now to the burning question:


What's this thing turn in the 1/4 mile with 5 gallons of 110 octane and a 200lb driver?

There's a post missing here.

I got this in the notification e-mail (from Poolboyclay)

"I believe you're wrong. Nope it don't come electric.
Clay

PS. What do you drive Mark?"


I drive a Subaru Liberty (Legacy to you). 4 cylinder normally aspirated. It gets reasonable fuel economy but not fantastic like a hybrid. Funny thing is a year ago I nearly traded it for a Urban Assault vehicle Pickup truck (Ute to us) - which under our RIDICULOUS tax laws is cheaper for me to run than a 4 cylinder (tax free lease as a commercial vehicle - it's a rort). I didn't have any idea about the *possibility* of Peak Oil a year ago, but it just felt wrong, so I kept the Suby.

So no, not a Prius, but not a 2 tonne tank either. Since I did some research on how much may be left (even the US Geological Survey amount) I've started riding my bike to work - which I should have been doing for years for exercise anyway- get off my lazy arse...but I would like an electric bike, cause when the winds howling in your face, 9-10 miles feels like 50...I'll see how long I keep it up. My brother gives me a month.

Hmm...Richard Branson..owns an airline doesn't he? Depends on cheap oil to keep his stock prices up. And Economists? Those would be the guys who believe exponential growth in a finite world is infinitely sustainable. Those would be the guys who've got us all gambling our houses on 30 years of continual growth...hope they are right, I like my house too.

ecrabb.....maybe you are right, hopefully you are right. I'm reading some books from the 70's predicting much the same thing, and they were obviously wrong (Middle east turned on the tap). Maybe it's just another boy crying wolf.


Pjackso, nothing gives me a warm fuzzy like watching those big turbines turn, they are stunning. Someones signed up! So I'll stop nagging you for a while.

Hmm...Richard Branson..owns an airline doesn't he? Depends on cheap oil to keep his stock prices up. I'm not certain but I doubt there is a correlation between cheap oil and Airline stock prices.
And Economists? Those would be the guys who believe exponential growth in a finite world is infinitely sustainable. Modern economics or mainstream economics teaches just the opposite. There are many different fields of study such as institutional economics, heterodox economics, green economics, marxist economics, etc.

I just posed a question, In 45 years has Opec ever reported anything other than there is an oil shortage?

The largest oil reserve in the world - more than 2 TRILLION barrels sits untapped in Colorado USA. Saudi Arabia reports huge oil finds , enough to sustain the earth for 100 years.

This is all published information.

Any-who, I'm not at all worried about oil or the lack there of for my children's and their child's generation. I'm much more concerned about Bush and Blair and what effect their insane foreign policy will have on my children. :)

Keep on riding that bike. I've been riding everyday for 15 years!

Deronmoped,


Matthew Simmons has been a key advisor to the Bush Administration, Vice President Cheney's 2001 Energy Task Force and the Council on Foreign Relations. An energy investment banker, Simmons is the CEO of Simmons and Co. International, handling an investment portfolio of approximately $56 billion. He has served previously on the faculty of Harvard Business School. Among Peak Oil researchers he is known for two seemingly contradictory things: being a staunch supporter of George W. Bush and his policies and probably the only outspoken insider to talk openly about Peak Oil.

I would sugges to you that you take some time to research this topic instead of making strawman statements. Our Electrical grid has not been updated in some time and is taxed to the limit. It is the reason we have many blackouts on peak demand in this country. If the net energy usage has gone up, why hasn't the grid been progressively been updated as well??? With todays technology and satellite imagery, there has not been any new oil field finds in large enough capacity to provide a return profit.


http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/061203_simmons.html
http://www.simmonsco-intl.com/research.aspx?Type=msspeeches

... there has not been any new oil field finds in large enough capacity to provide a return profit.. Not according to the US government.


Here are the official estimates from the U.S. Energy Department in regards to oil reserves discovered in Colorado;

* 8-times as much oil as Saudi Arabia
* 18-times as much oil as Iraq
* 21-times as much oil as Kuwait
* 22-times as much oil as Iran
* 500-times as much oil as Yemen

James Bartis, lead researcher with the study says, “We’ve got more oil in this very compact area than the entire Middle East.”

“That’s more than all the proven oil reserves of crude oil in the world today,” reports The Denver Post.

When asked about America’s least-publicized oil supply, Utah Senator Orrin Hatch said:

“The amounts of oil are staggering. Who would have guessed that in just Colorado and Utah, there is more recoverable oil than in the Middle East?”

According to the RAND Corporation (a public-policy think tank for the government), this small region can produce:

Three million barrels of oil per day... That translates into more than $20 BILLION a year.

The U.S. Energy Dept. estimates an eventual output of 10 million barrels of oil per day.

The most abundant areas hold up to 2 million barrels of oil per acre — it’s the most concentrated energy source on earth, according to the Energy Department.

Which is it save the oil for the children or stop using it so we can save the planet from all the pollution?

The sooner we run out of oil the sooner we switch to atomic energy, then electricity will be so cheap that we can run a car from San Diego to New York for a $1.00:) No air pollution, no wars over oil, no messy oil killing the seals, no more greasy hands from working on your car!

Deron.

I live in colorado and have never heard anything about bajillions of barrels of oil here? The olny thing I know of in abundance here is caol, and I would rather not shovel that into my car before driving to work. :)

I live in colorado and have never heard anything about bajillions of barrels of oil here? Until last week I never heard of Clay Aiken either but apparenty he's a huge a super star :)

I live in colorado and have never heard anything about bajillions of barrels of oil here? The olny thing I know of in abundance here is caol, and I would rather not shovel that into my car before driving to work. :)
I think they may be referring to shale oil - oil that is trapped in shale rock. I was born in the early 1950's and at the time my parents lived in Rifle, CO where my Dad worked on a shale-oil project. The existence of this resource has been known for at least that long. The problem has always been the cost of extracting it and refining it afterward. Every time the cost of oil goes above $20 per barrel, this resource gets revisited. Obviously there is some $ per barrel of oil number that is the break even point for this technology - I don't know what it is - and the suppliers would have to be comfortable that the price would stay at that level for some fairly long period of time before they would invest in the mining and refining facilities that would be required.

But on the other hand, the Saudis undoubtedly know what that break-even number is as well and their production costs are lower.

Hmmmmm . . . . . .

Troy-man,

Your position is fatally flawed with no verifiable links or facts. If this is the case of an abundance in Colorado, why was there a law passed to drill in Alaska? Is it cheaper to drill in Alaska, vs Colorado? How about transportation costs, refinery cost, and added expenses? Why has there been no incentive to repair the oil rigs on the coast from hurricane Katrina?? Why no new refineries if there is so much oil in Colorado??

Open strip mining for shale oil is a net loss operation and leaves ugly scars visible to the eye. This is verified in Canada where there is shale mining on the surface. The pollution created from this is terrible. It appears that most people are ignorant of the facts and put little effort into the needed research.

Good Luck to all. :o

Troy-man,

Your position is fatally flawed with no verifiable links or facts. Wow, Fatally flawed? :D I'm glad you are so certain of that. I was clear as to why I did not link to the story. My new member status prevents it. However, Linking to a story or 5 stories or 100 verifying what I posted would not do much good anyhow. When people have made up their minds, linking to 100 stories will not change it. That is one thing I have learned. Google is a very easy way to research this information. You don't need links from me.


If this is the case of an abundance in Colorado, why was there a law passed to drill in Alaska? Is it cheaper to drill in Alaska, vs Colorado? How about transportation costs, refinery cost, and added expenses? Why has there been no incentive to repair the oil rigs on the coast from hurricane Katrina?? Why no new refineries if there is so much oil in Colorado??
What makes you think I would have the answers to those questions? Most of your questions have to do with basic economics which all businesses/governments confront, not just oil production.


Open strip mining for shale oil is a net loss operation Is it really?

*China's been using oil shale since 1929.
* Estonia Whole economy depends on oil shale.
( Over 90% of Estonia's electricity is fueled by shale oil.)
*In 1991, Brazil built the world's largest oil shale facility. They've already produced more than 1.5 MILLION tons of oil.
*Jordan, Morocco, and Australia are currently building oil shale facilities.



It appears that most people are ignorant of the facts and put little effort into the needed research. Oh, I agree with you 100% ;) You have certainly proved that much. You'll get no argument from me.. :D

Oil Shale has less Energy Density than a baked Potato.

Once sixth the energy of Coal, and one-tenth that of oil.
No-ones bothered because it's losing proposition - the energy return is negative.

But Troy man is right - the shale is there in Colorado. But it's NOT OIL.

http://www.energybulletin.net/11779.html

No-ones bothered because it's losing proposition - the energy return is negative. :confused: Ah Mark... You did read my post directly above yours. The one about China using oil shale since 1929 and 90% of Estonia's electricity being fueled by shale oil and Brazil producing more than 1.5 MILLION tons of oil from oil shale? and Jordan, Morocco, and Australia all building oil shale facilities? France was selling oil shale in 1840.

But Troy man is right - the shale is there in Colorado. But it's NOT OIL. Well it contains oil or it can yield oil. It's the next cheapest way to extract oil and it's only a matter of time before the process is improved and streamlined and If you and I were smart, We'd look for some oil shale stock right now. ;)

Worst part of shale oil (or maybe just one of the worst) is the phenomonel (sp) amount of water required to produce oil from the shale. One of the cosmic jokes that shale oil is located in semi-arid Colorado, where they are already having water wars. Or at least skirmishes.

Prometheus - surround sound. Very prosaic, very loud. No Wilson puppys. Just one of my old road pa systems, crammed into a 675 sq foot room. Bridged QSC power. Bridged Adcom for front center (wanted something just a tad sweeter.) JBL SRs for L+R, F+R. EV for center, F+R. 18" EV Subs. Was all nice gear, din't wanna sell it at a loss like I usually do, so just set it up. Rane 31 band eqs, Rane xovers, probably most mundane part is Yammy pre/pro.

Worst part? - you can see the power meter on house service kick into overdrive when I hit the Furman and turn on the power. But hey - something like 10% our local electricity is from wind farms, the rest from coal, with a touch of nuke. I don't feel that guilty.

Just got rid of my sport car I had for 18 month cause gas issue was eating me away.
Not the price but Mark is right on the money saying it is the future. We are abusing and destroying our reserve of oil for good. It is mind boggling that car manufacturers are still coming with more CC and more horses every year and turbo is getting a status as well like we need more power every year. There is not even one day that I don't try to reduce my energy consumption.
It is time for a change and give it more respect it deserves before it is too late.

J There is not even one day that I don't try to reduce my energy consumption.



Ok, I'll only turn on my rears when the source material warrants it. ;)

There is not even one day that I don't try to reduce my energy consumption. It is time for a change and give it more respect it deserves before it is too late.
totally uneccesary. Thanks to troy man, shale oil, and the mighty economic superpower rising in Estonia all the worlds energy problems have been solved. :rolleyes:

Wow Jon! What a setup. I can't even imagine what that must sound like!

Who would have thought that a thread declaring extreme excitement over buying a car would turn into a debate about the end of the world as we know it! :rolleyes: :D I'm glad it wasn't a Hummer! :D :D

I wonder what direction this would have gone if the car was a:

BMW M3
Porsche 911
Ford F250 truck (so I can pull my RV, of course) No I don't own a RV :p
C06 Vette
Dodge Durango

They all get gas mileage around the Challanger.

I wonder how much energy was expended in order to have this debate? All of the servers, the buildings that house them, the heat that keeps them warm, the people that maintain them, and of course the energy used by us to participate! :D :D

God, I really love AVS!!! Were else can you find such an intelligent, diverse group of people. You guys are awesome!!

totally uneccesary. Thanks to troy man, shale oil, and the mighty economic superpower rising in Estonia all the worlds energy problems have been solved. :rolleyes:
There is and never was an energy problem. I would bet a a new Dodge Charger that before this thread, you didn't know what oil shale or Opec was and I bet you still don't know where Estonia is. I mean I don't want to call you stupid but..... By the way it's oil shale not shale oil. The Seven Sisters love people like you. ;) :D

Today I saw a real enviromentilist, he was sleeping in the doorway of a downtown building:)

I would like to see all the enviromentilist, do as good as he is doing in the way of saving natrual resourses, me I'm going to enjoy these God given gifts:)

Deron.

me I'm going to enjoy these God given gifts:)

Deron.

Well enjoy it while it lasts. We all are going to see seriously hi prices soon.
In about five years or so buying even a six cylinder engine become a serious financial commitment unless gas becomes 100% subsidized. And that means more out of pocket in tax.

Remember whan that nut up in New Hampshire invented the Segway Personal Transport? I don't know about elsewhere, but up here there were little leaks about a revolutionary new transportation technology... Speculation ran around everything from a practical liquid-sourced fuel cell all the way up to fusion (no joke.) These rumors grew with the re-telling until talking heads were speculating that Detroit and Opec should start investing in other business models.
It was all quite ridiculous, then the actual product was unveiled and was proved to be more ridiculous still.

Its' tragic that the pace of progress is measured in evolutionary terms, rather than revolutionary.
Hybrid is the current evolution away from internal combustion engines, hybrid diesel electric cars will be the next.
Diesel-electric hybrids fueled by bio-deisel will be a hot set-up, as:
a) they will be efficient enough to make bio- a reality (making enough bio to fuel a nation like the USA would consume more than even our agricultural resources) and
2) bio is an active part of the carbon cycle, making what emissions that do exist essentially zero-impact from an environmental standpoint.

I jump-started my participation by going petro-diesel in 2003 and getting 50 miles per gallon ever since. I can pray, along with others, that a revolutionary technology will come along and save the planet (fuel cell, hydrogen, etc) but I'm not banking on it in my lifetime.

There is and never was an energy problem. I would bet a a new Dodge Charger that before this thread, you didn't know what oil shale or Opec was and I bet you still don't know where Estonia is. I mean I don't want to call you stupid but..... By the way it's oil shale not shale oil. The Seven Sisters love people like you. ;) :D
Look junior,I was not quite driving age when Opec caused the first gas crunch in the 70's. Just because you started college last year doesn't make you smart, just a smart-ass.
Oil shale is the raw deposit, shale oil is the extracted product.
http://emd.aapg.org/technical_areas/oil_shale.cfm

I work with chemical engineers who have looked at extracting shale oil over the last 20 years. some of the dimaond tipped corring bits are still in my shop. If you knew half of what you think you do you would have enough sense to realize that heating oil shale to 450 degree's Celsius is very expensive process and not economically feasible. It would also come at a tremendous cost to the environment.
You have 5 posts here and think you know everything but your smug little attitude isn't going to win you any friends. try posting some facts instead of some half-ass insinuations.

Low sulfur diesel becomes available soon and then a huge of rush of diesel burning vehicles that can take advantage it. Late this year is when you are going to see the availability of LSD fuel and cars.
Hybrid has its own compromises. Weight is the major issue. Price increase ia another and since it is new tech it is bound to become obsolete quickly. But I like the tax incentive.

Low sulfur diesel becomes available soon and then a huge of rush of diesel burning vehicles that can take advantage it. Late this year is when you are going to see the availability of LSD fuel and cars.
LSD is something to look forward to but removing the sulfur is going to be expensive. With diesel already at $3. gallon I can see LSD pushing it up closer to $4.00. This would be fine if a diesel Hybrid manges to get numbers in the 100mpg range. I would consider taking on a new car payment for that kind of return.

You are not going to see a 100 mpg with LSD. While diesel engines are superior in fuel efficiency 100 mpg is out of reach for now. But if it is not going to be cost effective they will vanish from the market soon which I doubt. It will be a viable alternative to gas and Benz already has shown that with such engines there will not be a compromise in acceleration to a comparable engine that burns gas. They are completely smoke free as well and California compliancy is already certified.

Talking LSD, I was suprised to see a sticker on the gas pump I filled up at last time had it on it. I guessing that here in San Diego Ca. we are ahead of the game. Then of course the diesels they are producing nowadays put out alot less particles then the older diesels. I remember my Mom's 76' Peugot, man that thing would belch black smoke when you stepped on it.

I do not see what everyones worried about,

1) Cars nowadays are 1,000% cleaner then older cars, every year they get cleaner and the older ones that belch tons of pollution are ending up in the junk yards by the millions. We used to get some pretty nasty days in the way of pollution here in San Diego, but the air here has been super clean for years now. Pretty soon motorcycles and small engines (lawn mowers and such) are going to be super clean, they already started that process.

2) We were supposed to run out of oil along time ago, but there is plenty still around and as soon as lithium batteries get cheap enough electric cars will replace petrol burning ones. Lithium technology is already happening in the cordless tool department. I know I have them, twice the power, half the weight.

3) Americans should get off there fat butts anyways and walk or bike sometimes. The only way that will happen is if they can not afford to put gas in their tank. Just think, instead of driving those 3 blocks to Starbucks, they walk there and end up a little healthier, a little gas money saved and they might even meet their neighbors.

4) We will not destroy the planet. We make little messes every now and then, nothing compared to what the planet has been doing to it's self (Volcanos that destroy whole islands, ocean floors that are now mountian ranges, tidal waves that wipe out coast lines...). We can not even hold a candle to what the planet has done to itself in billions of years and yet people believe that over a few decades we can put the planet on a path to irreversible melt down.

Deron.

Oh, and by the way, we are freezing here in San Diego. Where is all this GW that was promised?

Deron.

Oh, and by the way, we are freezing here in San Diego. Where is all this GW that was promised?

Deron.

Until about three days ago, it was up here in Massachusetts! My sister in Phoenix and I have been comparing temperatures and there have been several days where its' been warmer here. :eek:

You have 5 posts here and think you know everything but your smug little attitude isn't going to win you any friends. try posting some facts instead of some half-ass insinuations.

Yea, yada yada yada... Read this article for starters and then come back and tell us how everything in the article is a lie and made up and not true and then tell us how you've never heard of the author (Jamie Court) so the story means nothing to you and then click on his bio and when you realize he is a very well known and respected journalist, well, then come back here and call me names and just ignore what the article says and pretend you never read it.

This is what people like you do when you are confronted with facts. You ignore them and attack the messenger rather than concede the point and admit you actually learned something.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jamie-court/memos-show-oil-companies-_b_6980.html

You guys think the oil situation is a crisis? How about the fact that you totally hijacked my thread! Now thats a real crisis! :D :D

Troy-man,

Shut your pie-hole, you know very little of the circumstances regarding peak oil and the impact on mankind. And what credentials does Jamie Court have in the Oil industry?? Evidently none. So tell us chump, where are all these billions of barrels of oil?? Why haven't they been tapped as of yet. IS it light oil, or heavy oil?? Well Chump, whats the answer??? Why no increase in the refineries being built??

Your an idiot and everyone here knows it, now go away unless you have something knowledgable to add to the CRT forum. :D

Troy-man,

Shut your pie-hole, you know very little of the circumstances regarding peak oil and the impact on mankind. Ah ok and let me guess, you do :D And what credentials does Jamie Court have in the Oil industry?? OK, I'll go real slow for ya. He doesn't need any specific "credentials" in the oil industry. He is a reporter, He is reporting on facts released in a public court hearing. Did ya get that? Not really?. ;)

Evidently none. So tell us chump, where are all these billions of barrels of oil?? Why haven't they been tapped as of yet. IS it light oil, or heavy oil?? Well Chump, whats the answer??? The answer is right above us.. No not with God but in my previous posts. :eek: Why no increase in the refineries being built?? OK , are you being serious? Are you telling me you read the article and then actually have to ask this question? Sorry, I can't help ya here.

Your an idiot and everyone here knows it, now go away unless you have something knowledgable to add to the CRT forum. :D It's "You're" as in you are, not "your" and the other word is knowledgeable not knowledgable. ...and you call me an idiot? :D sure thing draganm. ;)

Troy-man,

Shut your pie-hole, you know very little of the circumstances regarding peak oil and the impact on mankind. And what credentials does Jamie Court have in the Oil industry?? Evidently none. So tell us chump, where are all these billions of barrels of oil?? Why haven't they been tapped as of yet. IS it light oil, or heavy oil?? Well Chump, whats the answer??? Why no increase in the refineries being built??

Your an idiot and everyone here knows it, now go away unless you have something knowledgable to add to the CRT forum. :D

I think I'll nickname you "eracerxnet" because continuation of the lack of etiquette that you demonstrated in your last post will surely get this thread locked. Both you and Troy are new here, that’s cool, I'm always glad to see new members. Just try to keep it civil OK? If you guys want to continue the debate why don't you start your own thread?

Thanks
Charles

I think I'll nickname you "eracerxnet" because continuation of the lack of etiquette that you demonstrated in your last post will surely get this thread locked. Both you and Troy are new here, that’s cool, I'm always glad to see new members. Just try to keep it civil OK? If you guys want to continue the debate why don't you start your own thread?

Thanks
Charles Prometheusbound,

Racerxnet is not new here. I would bet anything that he is the member named dragnam. He is the only one who seems to get burning mad. He insulted me earlier and then my response got him so pissed off that he used another account to let his true colors out.
I would bet that if a mod ran the IPs of both dragnam and racerxnet that they would be coming form the same place. I've kept it civil all along. I have no problems seperating my emotions from the issue. :)

4) We will not destroy the planet. We make little messes every now and then, nothing compared to what the planet has been doing to it's self (Volcanos that destroy whole islands, ocean floors that are now mountian ranges, tidal waves that wipe out coast lines...). We can not even hold a candle to what the planet has done to itself in billions of years and yet people believe that over a few decades we can put the planet on a path to irreversible melt down.

Deron.Deron, I agree we can not destroy the planet itself but mankind still does have a good chance of destroying ourselves. You might think the atmosphere in California is cleaner than the 70's. But that doesn't change the fact that virtually all species of life on earth (excepting humans) are now going extinct never to come back again. Life is dying on this planet right now.

IMO it is nature's way of telling us something is going wrong big time.

My comment about the progress of technology applies to all technologies, including that necessary to liberate a given fuel and make it usable.
The adoption of shale-oil-shale is greatly hindered by the energy required to liberate it... Readily tap-able liquid reserves are going to be exploited first unless a revolutionary technology is invented to make shale less stingy. Barring some magic catalyst being discovered (perhaps ununseptium ;) ) it'll never happen in a free-market economy.
The same problem exists for all fuels, regardless of source. If the cost of acquiring a given fuel exceeds the market value of the fuel there will be no incentive for commercial exploitation. Besides lacking an adequate distribution infrastructure, the power needed to liberate hydrogen from water greatly exceeds its' potential output.

As for environmental impact, the same problem(s) exist for all energy sources regardless of the perception of cleanliness... You are just transferring the problems to somebody elses' back yard. Pure electric cars would require so much generation capacity that fossil or nuclear generation would have to be increased orders of magnitude. Electricity is difficult to store in sufficient quantity and transmission line loss to heat would be unacceptable. Its' for all these reasons that technology is evolutionary. Hydrogen can't be readily cracked, and fuel cells (regardless of energy source) do not provide nearly enough power density to motivate a car...

Basically you pick your poison and hope your descendants survive to see the inflection point on this graph.

Prometheusbound,

Racerxnet is not new here. I would bet anything that he is the member named dragnam. He is the only one who seems to get burning mad. He insulted me earlier and then my response got him so pissed off that he used another account to let his true colors out.
I would bet that if a mod ran the IPs of both dragnam and racerxnet that they would be coming form the same place. I've kept it civil all along. I have no problems seperating my emotions from the issue. :)


Troy-man, I did not mean to slight you in any way, the offending post was pointed at you, not caused by you. Welcome to the forum! :)

My comment about the progress of technology applies to all technologies, including that necessary to liberate a given fuel and make it usable.
The adoption of shale-oil-shale is greatly hindered by the energy required to liberate it... Readily tap-able liquid reserves are going to be exploited first unless a revolutionary technology is invented to make shale less stingy. Barring some magic catalyst being discovered (perhaps ununseptium ;) ) it'll never happen in a free-market economy.
The same problem exists for all fuels, regardless of source. If the cost of acquiring a given fuel exceeds the market value of the fuel there will be no incentive for commercial exploitation. Besides lacking an adequate distribution infrastructure, the power needed to liberate hydrogen from water greatly exceeds its' potential output.

As for environmental impact, the same problem(s) exist for all energy sources regardless of the perception of cleanliness... You are just transferring the problems to somebody elses' back yard. Pure electric cars would require so much generation capacity that fossil or nuclear generation would have to be increased orders of magnitude. Electricity is difficult to store in sufficient quantity and transmission line loss to heat would be unacceptable. Its' for all these reasons that technology is evolutionary. Hydrogen can't be readily cracked, and fuel cells (regardless of energy source) do not provide nearly enough power density to motivate a car...

Basically you pick your poison and hope your descendants survive to see the inflection point on this graph.

Thanks for quipping my interest. I learned a little something about halides! :) "Pick your poison" is a great phrase in regards to these!

Racerxnet is not new here. I would bet anything that he is the member named dragnam. He is the only one who seems to get burning mad. He insulted me earlier and then my response got him so pissed off that he used another account to let his true colors out. I would bet that if a mod ran the IPs of both dragnam and racerxnet that they would be coming form the same place. I've kept it civil all along. I have no problems seperating my emotions from the issue. :)
Junior do you really think I need a sperate account to dump on you? the only reason I responded to your ridiculous posts is because you mentioned colorado, where I live. You made assumptions about what I do or do not know that were so far off base I just had to point out the ignorance in your argument. You and racer are similar, engaging in vicous attacks which will likely get this thread closed sooner rather than later.
My comment about the progress of technology applies to all technologies, including that necessary to liberate a given fuel and make it usable.
The adoption of shale-oil-shale is greatly hindered by the energy required to liberate it... Readily tap-able liquid reserves are going to be exploited first unless a revolutionary technology is invented to make shale less stingy. Barring some magic catalyst being discovered (perhaps ununseptium ;) ) it'll never happen in a free-market economy..

Yes oil shale has potentially ginormous energy reserves and it's not exrtractable with current technologies. The tremendous heat required to process it makes it unfeasible to use fossil fuels or PV (which is only 12% efficient). If you guys want to look into a real source of energy look at concentrated solar energy as a direct heat source. The cheesy 2005 action movie "Sahara" has on scene filming of an operating solar Array in Spain that produces tremendous amounts of heat-energy, on the order of 70% efficiency.

The same problem exists for all fuels, regardless of source. If the cost of acquiring a given fuel exceeds the market value of the fuel there will be no incentive for commercial exploitation. Besides lacking an adequate distribution infrastructure, the power needed to liberate hydrogen from water greatly exceeds its' potential output.
hydrogen from Water takes relatively little energy, the trick is keeping it from re-combining into water. You need to strip the Oxygen out and so far that's only been practical be creating metal Oxide powers in the process. Once again, a very expensive venture and not economically feasible at this time.

3) Americans should get off there fat butts anyways and walk or bike sometimes.

What a stereotype, but not unexpected from a California liberal who obviously loathes this country.

As someone who runs 65mpw @ 5:57/mile (and has 8 marathons under his belt) I'm probably more fit than the last five generation of your whole family combined - send me a PM, we'll setup a 26.2 MI race, and put the results right here, in this thread, in blog format, for everyone to see.

Are you ready to put up to this "American with a fat butt"? PM button is in the upper-right hand corner of this page.

If we could tap all the energy in this thread we could power the world:)

I still do not see what the problem is, gasoline is a bargain, it has not kept pace with inflation. The price of gasoline has been dropping for over 80 years, the same thing can be said about natural gas. Why is the price dropping? Because we are finding more of it faster then we can use it. Free up the restraints on drilling for oil here and it would be even cheaper. Cheap gasoline is why some 18 year old can afford to drive around a monster gas guzzler jacked up to the Moon. Back when I was 18 we always carpooled and we still had to scrape together enough money to get to the beach and back.

Deron.

Axatax

So are you taking offense from the remark about fat Americans not exercising?

And are you trying to tell me there are not fat Americans out there that do not exercise?

And is the statement that fat Americans should exercise a bad thing?

And sense I made this remark I should be able to beat you in a marathon?

Anyways I have done several marathons in less then three hours:)

Deron.

So are you taking offense from the remark about fat Americans not exercising?

No, but I'm mystified about why you care about what ANYONE ELSE is doing - whether getting fat or not. It doesn't affect you in the least bit if some stranger decides to become obese or thin.

Anyways I have done several marathons in less then three hours

Deron.

Name your place and time. I'll meet you half-way.

Jeff

Junior do you really think I need a separate account to dump on you? the only reason I responded to your ridiculous posts is because you mentioned Colorado, where I live. I posted facts about oil shale and what countries have been using it and what counties have heavily invested in it.. I also pointed out what the US Government said about oil in Colorado and other states. At no time did I even offer my personal opinion. This stuff comes from the US government. So go and tell the Energy department how ridiculous they are.


You made assumptions about what I do or do not know that were so far off base I just had to point out the ignorance in your argument.
I made assumptions about your likely reaction to the article I linked you too and you did exactly what I said you would do. You totally 100% ignored the article and pretended I never provided a link because the article proves everything I said in regards to Opec manipulating oil prices.You dismiss what I say and what the US government says and I'm sure you will dismiss what internal memos from the oil companies say.

and racer are similar, engaging in vicious attacks


Rrrrrrright! I'm the one viciously attacking people. Poor dragnam.

LSD is something to look forward to but removing the sulfur is going to be expensive. With diesel already at $3. gallon I can see LSD pushing it up closer to $4.00. This would be fine if a diesel Hybrid manges to get numbers in the 100mpg range. I would consider taking on a new car payment for that kind of return.

VW alone will have 8 new diesel models available by 2010. One smaller econo vehicle will get 70 MPG. I think it will start at 13K. All of there present models will have a TDI option too. LSD is so late to the game that we would have these cars now except for the slowness in adopting LS and ULS diesel.

Mix the ultra low sulphur fuel with biodiesel and that's even a better move. (Removing sulphur removes some of the lubricity of the fuel, adding a percentage of bio adds the lubricity back, and then some.)

Almost forgot - make sure you order the thetare option on your next car.

http://www.blogsmithmedia.com/www.engadget.com/media/2007/01/suzuki-flix.jpg

Fine, I'm going to start deleting these OT threads on site from now on.

You guys have a real knack for turning a simple thread about a car into a debate about oil and the environment. This is not the first time this has happened...

Ever wonder why Alan has posted a sticky about OT threads in this forum?
Wonder no longer.

BTW, don't shoot the messenger. If you guys would play by the rules OT threads would be supported here without an issue, but I end up getting reports about this thread concerning personal attacks instead.