Hitachi 51/57/65F59A CRT RPTV Tweaks Thread [Text View] - Page 12

BFJ 96

12-02-08, 09:40 PM

kishan

12-02-08, 09:57 PM

LastButNotLeast

12-02-08, 10:02 PM

Ok I will do that but how can i get my picture quality sharper cause like when i get up close to the tv i see i can't explain it but some fuzziness and when i get farther away they go away but it is still there and i have a little more red can you tell me how i might be able to get that red out and get the picture more natural please.

Click on "first" below and work your way slowly through this thread. If you're still using Magic Focus then you have a lot to learn. But if you want your set to look great and you want to do it yourself, it's all here. Most of it, anyway.
Otherwise, send Mr. Bob an email and have him spend a day at your place.

kishan

12-02-08, 10:13 PM

Ok well I put the setting the BFJ 96 told me and my picture is like really dark and i can see the picture but not really good at all.

kishan

12-03-08, 12:04 AM

Mr Bob

12-03-08, 10:36 AM

Ok hey everyone i have done 7 service menu things like the stage and the colorg and etc... my picture quality has imporved alot better but know i went to magic focus and i went to 117pt manual focus and my thing is in the middle and it is white and when i click on select on my remote is turns colors and when i press channel up arrow it moves so can some one tell me what i have to do here so i can get good magic focus.

You can't get good magic focus from the automated version, only from the manual version. If you reduce your grid light level with registers in sm, you can use that MF grid to supertighten your convergence without even going into DCAM conv.

The red push your set was designed with needs realignment, which is in your sm. This will allow the green and blue to be just as vivid as your red now is, and will allow your red to get reduced in strength back to where it should be, not overdoing it all the time like it does now, OOB.

Details are available on no less than 4 Hitachi threads, right in this section. Do a search on them and keep reading, if you want to do it all yourself. The guys here have been incredibly prolific in getting the word out on how to improve the images on Hitachis, and my hat's off to them -

;)

If you don't want to miss anything, having me do it all, stem to stern, would probably be best.

Mr Bob

lordcloud

12-03-08, 01:12 PM

Hi everyone I own the Hitachi 51F59A and i have no problems on my tv but like I was wondering like when I watch TV I get a little bit of more red and i was wondering how can i get picture quality like the others here who own this TV . P.S I have done a magic focus. Below is what my TV setting is right now please someone help me out. I will post a picture on how the picture quality looks like.

Picture Mode – Day
Contrast – 75%
Brightness- 70%
Color- 70%
Tint- In The Middle
Sharpness- 50%
Color Temperature- High
Black Enhancement- Off
Edge Enhancement- Off
Auto Color- On
Noise Reduction- Off
Auto Movie Mode- Off

I would receommend, turning the contrast down to less than thirty, I have mine at 18 right now. The Brightness at 50 or less, Color Temp Standard or Warm, and Auto Color off and then read this entire tread from page 1. The amount of info in this thread is beyond helpful and a requirement if you want to get your set looking at or close to it's potential. Focus, convergence, color decoding, grayscale and a few other things are what you will want to get a good understanding of to get your pic looking good, and trust me, this set can look effing spectacular!

Or, you can pay a pro, like Bob, to come out and do it all for you.

Mustang68

12-03-08, 08:21 PM

I would agree with everyhting said here so far. Your experiencing a common problem for a new user with 117 p convergence. The little cursor will start out white. push the select button and it will turn red. Then move the up/down keys until the red is completly covered by the white. In other words a straight line with white. Hit select again and the cursor will turn blue. If blue is not covered up and merged do the same thing again.

If you want to go from center out without having to remember which one you just did then just hit the channel up down key while the cursor is red or blue and it will move it to the next point working itself in a circle. Keep at it and you will have convergenc eand might get rid of the fuzzy edges you are seeing.

If your set is not completly new it WILL need some cleaning of the top lense and mirror. I have seen dust on them after 2 months. That will be the biggest single thing you can do to get rid of that fuzziness. Ask Mr. Bob about a phone consult. Safer and less nerve wracking if you dont think you can do it yourself without a coach to help out.

jasper delarge

12-03-08, 10:52 PM

Mr Bob

12-04-08, 03:44 AM

hey, guys. it's been a couple years since i last frequented this site [specifically for this thread]. i have the 57" and recently we've hooked a ps3 up through the hdmi and i was curious if anyone has noticed their hdmi input to shift occasionally by a couple inches either to the right or to the left [it seems random]? it seems like some sort of auto-format function but i am not aware of any in the menu. anyways, for no reason i can pinpoint i've only noticed this on the hdmi input. it just shifts the projected image sideways, thus cropping one end off by a few inches and exposing the same amount of black on the other side, then reverting back to normal after a few seconds.

has anyone noticed this on their set? is this symptomatic of the set or [hopefully] is it related to the hdmi cable itself?

thanks for any advice

This has been a common problem with Hitachis, and Hitachi has taken the bit in their teeth and wrestled it to the ground.

Go to this link:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=842581

b

jwebb1970

12-04-08, 01:45 PM

hey, guys. it's been a couple years since i last frequented this site [specifically for this thread]. i have the 57" and recently we've hooked a ps3 up through the hdmi and i was curious if anyone has noticed their hdmi input to shift occasionally by a couple inches either to the right or to the left [it seems random]? it seems like some sort of auto-format function but i am not aware of any in the menu. anyways, for no reason i can pinpoint i've only noticed this on the hdmi input. it just shifts the projected image sideways, thus cropping one end off by a few inches and exposing the same amount of black on the other side, then reverting back to normal after a few seconds.

has anyone noticed this on their set? is this symptomatic of the set or [hopefully] is it related to the hdmi cable itself?

thanks for any advice

Bob sent you to the right place!

The HDMI shifts have been a discussion point here for quite some time. WHile it took Hitachi a whileto address it, they have fixed it.

As one of the early beta test guinea pigs for the shift fix, I can tell you that it definitely works & my 51 has been HDMI shift-free since the repair/mod was performed several months back.

Do recommend reading thru the Shift Issue thread, just in case the local tech Hitachi sends your way is not super familiar with such things. The more info you have @ your disposal when dealing w/ your tech will only help you.

Mustang68

12-04-08, 04:51 PM

Bob sent you to the right place!

The HDMI shifts have been a discussion point here for quite some time. WHile it took Hitachi a whileto address it, they have fixed it.

As one of the early beta test guinea pigs for the shift fix, I can tell you that it definitely works & my 51 has been HDMI shift-free since the repair/mod was performed several months back.

Do recommend reading thru the Shift Issue thread, just in case the local tech Hitachi sends your way is not super familiar with such things. The more info you have @ your disposal when dealing w/ your tech will only help you.

Do the fix. My set has not shifted again and its the only way to fix it. Be aware though. Check my post 2731 &2743 for problems though. If they are coming out to do the whole EPROMM board make sure they are committed to a whole Convergence redo. They will tell you your settings will be OK but they wont. Write down all them. Some will change but that is for the fix and they are locked into place so you wont be able to mess with them anyway. Good luck.

jasper delarge

12-05-08, 04:27 AM

thanks for the advice, all. i'll contact hitachi. good to know they have resolved it

Mustang68

12-05-08, 01:55 PM

Mustang68

12-06-08, 01:05 PM

BTW....You guys realize that if the recent crash had not wiped out 7 pages of posting we would be celebrating 100 pages and still going strong.

tbearden2

12-06-08, 04:18 PM

lordcloud

12-06-08, 04:19 PM

Let me just say once again how much I love CRT and how much I wish it was still a maturing technology. My girlfriend's parents have two Sony sets, one RP and one flatscreen. I've calibrated both to the best of my abilites, but still....how in the hell has this technology been pushed on us and people are willingly accepting it? Is perceived sharpness really that important, to the point that you would be willing to sacrifice most other things?

To all those who would tell me that black level isn't that important, I say to you.......get Lasic, glasses, contacts, sit closer, or something! I know it's all about what's important to you, but there is no way I could live with the blacks we currently have available on digital sets. I set up my friend's Mitsubishi DLP last night and it was as bad as the Sonys as far as black levels. I just don't get it. The blacks affect the picture quality in so many other ways, to not have it is just ridiculous in my opinion. Digitals just don't do it for me at all.

Maybe I'm just old or something.

Mr Bob

12-06-08, 04:40 PM

Hi Guys,

My 51" 51f59a has developed a bunch of horizontal vibrating lines on the bottom half of the screen. Doesn't seem to matter what resolution or input is used. Any idea what the problem could be?

Looks like a problem in your vertical sweep, prolly a defective cap. If I were on the case I would shoot all the caps in the area individually with super-freeze, see which one reacts and replace it. The vertical IC is always mounted on a relatiely small heat sink, and its circuitry is all around it. It eventually leads to the vertical wires that go to your sweep yokes, along with your horizonal wires. 2 wires each, 4 total.

b

Mr Bob

12-06-08, 04:42 PM

Let me just say once again how much I love CRT and how much I wish it was still a maturing technology. My firlfriend's parents have two Sony sets, one RP and one flatscreen. I've calibrated both to the best of my abilites, but still....how in the hell has this technology been pushed on us and people are willingly accepting it? Is perceived sharpness really that important, to the point that you would be willing to sacrifice most other things?

To all those who would tell me that black level isn't that important, I say to you.......get Lasic, glasses, contacts, sit closer, or something! I know it's all about what's important to you, but there is no way I could live with the blaks we currently have available on digital sets. I set up my friend's Mitsubishi DLP last night and it was as bad as the Sonys as far as black levels. I just don't get it. The blacks affect the picture quality in so many other ways, to not have it is just ridiculous in my opinion. Digitals just don't do it for me at all.

Maybe I'm just old or something.

Couldn'ta said it bettah mahseff! Don't own a digital at all. All CRT in this man's home theater -

:cool:

Mr Bob

tbearden2

12-06-08, 08:59 PM

Thanks Bob. I see the 2 connectors with 2 wires each running up. I have sprayed every cap in that area, but don't see any improvement. There are also a lot under the fins of the heat sink that would be very hard to get to. Any other ideas? I have the service manual, but I am apparently not good at reading location diagrams:), and it doesn't even mention the vertical IC (any secret name I should be looking for?)

Mr Bob

12-06-08, 09:01 PM

htwaits

12-07-08, 03:13 PM

Chad Billheimer came out earlier this month and calibrated my TV and surround sound system. www.HDTVbychadb.com
Thanks for your calibration report. I've added to the RPTV (Post#1) list that's linked at the bottom of my post.

Tanspot2001

12-17-08, 12:53 AM

I've had 57F59 for a couple of years now and had done the convergence and focus. I have not kept up with this thread for a while and don't know if many people have hooked this tv up with their HTPC. Recently I built a new system with a Phenom9600 cup and Asus 780G motherboard and are somewhat disappointed by the picture quality (1080i or 720p) from my pc hook up (HDMI or DVI connection). The PQ from my HD cable box is very good (by my standard:-), but the quality from playing the mkv HDTV contents from the pc is not that great at all. DVD playing from the pc is not that impressive either. I have searched this and HTPC forum and cannot find much discussion about this type of setup and issues. Just wonder if anybody here could share his wisdom.

lordcloud

12-17-08, 11:41 PM

Mustang68

12-17-08, 11:48 PM

I recently purchased a 51 incher from a pawn shop for my ex wife (there's a touch of burn in on the sides!!!!)and I just finished the grayscale and color decoding and that was spot on. But the pic was out of focus, smeared, flat, and lifeless.

Optics cleaning to the rescue!!

A few minutes with paper towels, spray away, the mirror and lenses and BAM!!!! Crisp, clean, dimensional, rich picture. God I love CRT.

You know that kills me. I want another one bad but because of its size I dont have anywhere to put it. I may buy one and put it in storage. I know that there wont be many left in a couple of years for sale. My set is still rocking and no HDMI shifts. Man that was still an ordeal though. If anyone is scheduled for that get with me before or read my post so they dont have to go through that.

lordcloud

12-18-08, 12:15 AM

You know that kills me. I want another one bad but because of its size I dont have anywhere to put it. I may buy one and put it in storage. I know that there wont be many left in a couple of years for sale. My set is still rocking and no HDMI shifts. Man that was still an ordeal though. If anyone is scheduled for that get with me before or read my post so they dont have to go through that.

I know how you feel !I'm dying for a 65 inch set, but I couldn't get it around the tight corner of my stairwell or else I'd be getting one sooner rather than later.

Mr Bob

12-18-08, 11:44 AM

I recently purchased a 51 incher from a pawn shop for my ex wife (there's a touch of burn in on the sides!!!!)and I just finished the grayscale and color decoding and that was spot on. But the pic was out of focus, smeared, flat, and lifeless.

Optics cleaning to the rescue!!

A few minutes with paper towels, spray away, the mirror and lenses and BAM!!!! Crisp, clean, dimensional, rich picture. God I love CRT.

Awesome technology, that window cleaning stuff, huh!

:D

Also check that it might not need the deeper optics cleaning.

Check that your side screenburn is not just on one predominant color. If so the whites will be different shades on the sides from the middle, not just one section darker than the other.

b

lordcloud

12-18-08, 12:06 PM

Check that your side screenburn is not just on one predominant color. If so the whites will be different shades on the sides from the middle, not just one section darker than the other.

So is there a solution to get rid of it that you're aware of?

Mr Bob

12-18-08, 12:52 PM

So is there a solution to get rid of it that you're aware of?

If so then only 1 gun is affected, meaning that regunning it would be simplified.

If you do find 1 gun affected - it's usually the green - then creating an image that ages JUST the sides would bring that aging back down to match the middle 4x3 section, a pattern that leaves the 4x3 section black. It can be done in powerpoint. You might have to juggle your hor positioning and width for the duration of your burn-in process, and be wary of lines of demarcation, which are also screenburn...

You can also disable the other 2 guns so that just the green is active when you put up a b/w version.

I have patterns around here somewhere, they were sent to me via email by a co-conspirator out there, but that was years ago and I wouldn't know where to look now.

You might want to put out that you're looking for them, out there, see if the same wonderful soul responds...

b

CubsWin1

12-19-08, 07:54 PM

Mustang68

12-19-08, 10:11 PM

I have had this TV for about 3 1/2 years and I am very happy with it, but I think it's probably time to have someone clean and calibrate it, as well as adjusting the overscan. Can anyone recommend how to find someone who can properly do those things? I'm in the far south Chicago suburbs if that helps at all.

Mr. Bob, who can be found on this thread and others, is one of the best. I think you just missed him in the Chicago area though. A lot can be done on your own that can get it pretty close to top notch. I agree that a GOOD calibrator makes life easy. I'm sure someone will know who can help.

lordcloud

12-20-08, 12:37 AM

Ultimate resolving power is not achievable without proper grayscale.

lordcloud

12-20-08, 12:40 AM

I have had this TV for about 3 1/2 years and I am very happy with it, but I think it's probably time to have someone clean and calibrate it, as well as adjusting the overscan. Can anyone recommend how to find someone who can properly do those things? I'm in the far south Chicago suburbs if that helps at all.

You can honestly get your set 90 something percent of the way there using this thread. My set is insane. There's a lot of reading and a lot of doing though. A good calibrator like Mr Bob, Craig Rounds, or a number of any of the reputable guys on here will get you all the way there if you don't want to do things yourself.

Mr Bob

12-20-08, 02:41 PM

You can honestly get your set 90 something percent of the way there using this thread. My set is insane. There's a lot of reading and a lot of doing though. A good calibrator like Mr Bob, Craig Rounds, or a number of any of the reputable guys on here will get you all the way there if you don't want to do things yourself.

Would you say the learning curve a non-professional has to man is intense and seemingly unending, to say the least?

:p

Lots of my owners have families or careers, they just don't have the time! That's why they hire us.

Also so that they can be confident that no stone will remain unturned, and show up 5 years later along with the horror of knowing how much better the set woulda looked all that time if only they had done that one thing - seemingly little, but not really, not at all - that had gotten overlooked -

;)

b

Mr Bob

12-20-08, 02:46 PM

I have had this TV for about 3 1/2 years and I am very happy with it, but I think it's probably time to have someone clean and calibrate it, as well as adjusting the overscan. Can anyone recommend how to find someone who can properly do those things? I'm in the far south Chicago suburbs if that helps at all.

Yes, I came to Chicago last year, but have had inquiries from people in that area since, also. I still have some more work to do an a Mit owned by a United pilot there who came in on the tail end of the tour and we only had time for the repair he needed and some calibration work.

Put a tour together and I will come!

;)

b

CubsWin1

12-20-08, 04:14 PM

Yes, I came to Chicago last year, but have had inquiries from people in that area since, also. I still have some more work to do an a Mit owned by a United pilot there who came in on the tail end of the tour and we only had time for the repair he needed and some calibration work.

Put a tour together and I will come!

;)

b
Well, if you do make your way to the Chicago area or have any other contacts in the area that you can recommend, I would be very interested. Sure I could probably spend my own time to decipher this thread and "hope" I do everything right without making my TV worse than it was before, but I would prefer to pay a professional knowing that I'm getting the best possible finished product.

Mustang68

12-20-08, 04:30 PM

Well, if you do make your way to the Chicago area or have any other contacts in the area that you can recommend, I would be very interested. Sure I could probably spend my own time to decipher this thread and "hope" I do everything right without making my TV worse than it was before, but I would prefer to pay a professional knowing that I'm getting the best possible finished product.

We are a bunch or DIYer nuts around here but I certainly know how you feel. I have made plenty of mistakes and had that sinking feeling. Luckily the friends I have made on this thread pulled me through. That includes Mr. Bob. I will tell you that in my area , Austin TX the Hit service contractor knew very little about my set.

Ask a lot of questions if you choose someone to do it. How many Hit sets they have done ect...

I can say that your not going to get anyone more qualified than Mr. Bob so if you can that is a good route. If I remember right the last guy in the Chicago area tried a find someone who knew what they were doing and ran out of luck. I believe he was the one that eventually hired Mr. Bob. Just ask those questions and check back here. I'm sure we can help with who gave you a line of bull and who knew what they were talking about.

Mr Bob

12-20-08, 04:44 PM

lordcloud

12-20-08, 06:15 PM

Would you say the learning curve a non-professional has to man is intense and seemingly unending, to say the least?

:p

b

Completely agree with you on this one. It's been a long road, albeit an incredibly fun and gratifying one for me. And the pic I have is so much better than I EVER thought it could be. Now having said that....I plan on getting a CRT FP when I own my domain, and I'm not so sure I want to DIY that one. I will definitely have a pro tackle that mountain.

Mustang68

12-20-08, 07:43 PM

Completely agree with you on this one. It's been a long road, albeit an incredibly fun and gratifying one for me. And the pic I have is so much better than I EVER thought it could be. Now having said that....I plan on getting a CRT FP when I own my domain, and I'm not so sure I want to DIY that one. I will definitely have a pro tackle that mountain.

I'm going to buy one of those myself. Only I plan on buying one for setting up outside for neighborhood movie night. I still want another Hit RP for inside though.

joeboxer

12-21-08, 12:23 PM

Mr Bob

12-21-08, 01:18 PM

Now having said that....I plan on getting a CRT FP when I own my domain, and I'm not so sure I want to DIY that one. I will definitely have a pro tackle that mountain.

I'm going to buy one of those myself. Only I plan on buying one for setting up outside for neighborhood movie night. I still want another Hit RP for inside though.

Remember, I cut my teeth on overhead ceiling projection, and would love to dial in both of your front pjs, once it's time. I don't just do CRT RPTVs, I do CRT ceiling pjs as well. Please consider me -

;)

b

LastButNotLeast

12-21-08, 01:42 PM

I have all the same problems as everyone else has had with their F59A. I tried the instructions posted way earlier in this thread. I held down the Menu key on the set and all I get is the Video, Audio adjustments keys. What am I doing wrong.

Welcome, Joe. First, not "everyone else" has had "problems." Most of mine, I must admit, have been self-inflicted.
There are lots of instructions here and elsewhere
(http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=687477
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=842581)
for doing all kinds of things. Some of them can be risky. First step is to download a free service manual (that's your homework for tonight :)).
Write down all the default settings before you do anything.
Just in case you missed that:
Write down all the default settings before you do anything.
Apparently, you are trying to get into the service menu. While you are holding in the Menu button on the TV, press menu, 8, then select on the remote.
Welcome to the exciting world of tweaking.
We won't spoon-feed you, but we are here to help when we can.
Michael

Mustang68

12-21-08, 05:09 PM

Welcome, Joe. First, not "everyone else" has had "problems." Most of mine, I must admit, have been self-inflicted.
There are lots of instructions here and elsewhere
(http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=687477
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=842581)
for doing all kinds of things. Some of them can be risky. First step is to download a free service manual (that's your homework for tonight :)).
Write down all the default settings before you do anything.
Just in case you missed that:
Write down all the default settings before you do anything.
Apparently, you are trying to get into the service menu. While you are holding in the Menu button on the TV, press menu, 8, then select on the remote.
Welcome to the exciting world of tweaking.
We won't spoon-feed you, but we are here to help when we can.
Michael

Remember to let off the remotes menu key before pushing 8 and then Select. Its not all three at once.

LastButNotLeast

12-21-08, 06:37 PM

Remember to let off the remotes menu key before pushing 8 and then Select. Its not all three at once.

Hey, if he can do THAT while holding in the menu button on the TV, he deserves a standing ovation.:D

lordcloud

12-22-08, 09:38 AM

Am I the only one who has to run his red tube a few clicks lower than is "accurate"? AVIA says it should be at 5, I have it at 3 or 2, otherwise reds are "bloomey" to me.

LastButNotLeast

12-22-08, 10:13 AM

Am I the only one who has to run his red tube a few clicks lower than is "accurate"? AVIA says it should be at 5, I have it at 3 or 2, otherwise reds are "bloomey" to me.

FWIW:
As you know, I have used the Eye One and HCFR software to "calibrate" my set. I can show you a lovely, flat line, low delta E's, yadda yadda yadda.
Then I watched a few movies, raised the brightness a few clicks, turned black enhancement to medium, and probably touched another setting or two. Just for fun, I ran the gamma again and - what do you know - it's off a bit. But I LOVE the picture.
Guess what? The Eye One and computer have been put away and I'm watching movies.
Enjoy your set. I promise not to bring the Eye One when I come over.
Michael

jwebb1970

12-22-08, 10:56 AM

FWIW:
As you know, I have used the Eye One and HCFR software to "calibrate" my set. I can show you a lovely, flat line, low delta E's, yadda yadda yadda.
Then I watched a few movies, raised the brightness a few clicks, turned black enhancement to medium, and probably touched another setting or two. Just for fun, I ran the gamma again and - what do you know - it's off a bit. But I LOVE the picture.
Guess what? The Eye One and computer have been put away and I'm watching movies.
Enjoy your set. I promise not to bring the Eye One when I come over.
Michael

Good for you, Michael!

Save for the very occasional conv touchups ('cause I have become picky), I have a very pleasing pic on my 51. Nice to have it dialed in. I know it could get tweaked to the nth degree if I could afford a visit from Bob, but I don't feel I'm "missing anything" & just enjoy the pretty pictures now.

Maybe it was just the quality of the broadcast yesterday, but my wife's sister & her husband were over watching the Raiders/Texans game on CBS (Go Raiders! - nice to see a win for a change).

My sister in law commented on how great the image looked - and she's not one to usually notice. They have a nice Olevia LCD & she found my "dinosaur" to look better. Perhaps just because, although the image is sharp, it lacks that "artificial" sharpness inherent in most flat panels.

My Panny BD player is under the tree as we speak (and I know that at least The Dark Knight, the new X-FIles movie & LOST: Season 4 Blurays are also scattered there). The Monoprice component switch is installed, freeing up the HDMI in (which waits w/ cable & optical for audio at the ready) & Harmony remote preset to run the new goodies - the 25th can't come soon enough!

superleo

12-22-08, 01:30 PM

FWIW:
As you know, I have used the Eye One and HCFR software to "calibrate" my set. I can show you a lovely, flat line, low delta E's, yadda yadda yadda.
Then I watched a few movies, raised the brightness a few clicks, turned black enhancement to medium, and probably touched another setting or two. Just for fun, I ran the gamma again and - what do you know - it's off a bit. But I LOVE the picture.
Guess what? The Eye One and computer have been put away and I'm watching movies.
Enjoy your set. I promise not to bring the Eye One when I come over.
Michael

My very own non professional opinion; After having the set what I thought looking very good just by tweaks and then calibrating the set ... even though that the non calibrated picture looked very pleasing and good once you compare it to a calibrated one you can actually see where the set lacks, I believe that foundation for any set is grayscale, once this is right or close to right it is easier to obtain the right colors, blacks, whites and ofcourse with these the right combination for a better responding shadows and details.

What I done too is similar to Michael. First calibrate the set to the best of mine and the sets abilities, then with a familiar picture(s), I've used several from familiar people to obtained the right flesh tones, to familiar scenery to obtained the right tones of blue, green, brown etc... for these I've used a combination of user settings and service menu settings.

What I've gotten after altering the settings and re-taking measurements is that you get a non linear gamma and visible bumps on the grayscale specially at 60IRE,70IRE and 80IRE, not much but clearly not linear.

I would imagine that the experts would say to leave it linear and get use to the picture, but going back to the familiar pictures, it looks closer to that material with the changes applied.

If you like what you have and other people notice it ... it must look really good!!!

Happy Holidays everyone!!!

lordcloud

12-22-08, 05:52 PM

Mustang68

12-22-08, 09:09 PM

I have basically done the same thing; calibrated the set with accurate grayscale and color decoding, but found that I've had to make changes to get a better picture. My grayscale is exactly as it is scalibrated, which is isn't perfect, but pretty close, and like I said before, my red is bloomy when set as perfect as I can so I backed that down a little. Otherwise, the set looks GREAT!!!! Insanely sharp, rich, and dimensional.

When you say back down a little do you mean in the User Menu or Service? I have my set linear on Red (DVE HD) and blue, with a little off on Green. I can never get green perfect and not screw up the other two.

I have no red blooming at all. I watched "Good Night & Good Luck" the other night and if my grayscale is off I couldn't spot it. I'm sure an Eye One could but its thats close. My pic is awesome. My only prob is a little black crush. I run my set on the DVE test with the little gray bars barely, barely visible on the sides just before absolute black. Can anyone tell me what they run for their blacks. Different settings ect. I would rather be darker than washed out though.

PS Lordcloud....what are you running ColorG? I know thats kinda a stupid question as we have all gone over 01 vs 01 over and over. I have 00.

LastButNotLeast

12-22-08, 10:36 PM

My only prob is a little black crush. I run my set on the DVE test with the little gray bars barely, barely visible on the sides just before absolute black. Can anyone tell me what they run for their blacks. Different settings ect. I would rather be darker than washed out though.

I am willing to sacrifice pitch black for detail. If someone is wearing a black coat, I want to be able to see the pocket on it. After calibrating, I added a couple of clicks to "brightness" and set "black enhancement" to medium. Try that on a couple of dark pictures and see what you think (Van Helsing was one of my "test" discs).
I was able to virtually eliminate my biggest problem, which was that my blacks were blue. Very happy now.

lordcloud

12-22-08, 10:43 PM

When you say back down a little do you mean in the User Menu or Service? I have my set linear on Red (DVE HD) and blue, with a little off on Green. I can never get green perfect and not screw up the other two.

I have no red blooming at all. I watched "Good Night & Good Luck" the other night and if my grayscale is off I couldn't spot it. I'm sure an Eye One could but its thats close. My pic is awesome. My only prob is a little black crush. I run my set on the DVE test with the little gray bars barely, barely visible on the sides just before absolute black. Can anyone tell me what they run for their blacks. Different settings ect. I would rather be darker than washed out though.

PS Lordcloud....what are you running ColorG? I know thats kinda a stupid question as we have all gone over 01 vs 01 over and over. I have 00.

My red is backed off in the SM. My RBGA is at 3 as opposed to 5. As far as grayscale, I would highly recommend getting an eye1 and calibrating it. You'll be amazed at the difference. Once your grayscale is correct, black crush is less of a problem. My ColorG is at 3. I may try it with 0 and see if I can get my color decoding more to my liking that way, we shall see.

superleo

12-23-08, 09:38 AM

I am willing to sacrifice pitch black for detail. If someone is wearing a black coat, I want to be able to see the pocket on it. After calibrating, I added a couple of clicks to "brightness" and set "black enhancement" to medium. Try that on a couple of dark pictures and see what you think (Van Helsing was one of my "test" discs).
I was able to virtually eliminate my biggest problem, which was that my blacks were blue. Very happy now.

At Michael's recommendation I've been playing with black enhancement too, I have mine at low, although my sub-brite, statg1 and statg2 are at non defaults.

When BE is set on, the blacks go really dark but with out losing detail, nice change I think.

lordcloud

12-23-08, 10:58 AM

At Michael's recommendation I've been playing with black enhancement too, I have mine at low, although my sub-brite, statg1 and statg2 are at non defaults.

When BE is set on, the blacks go really dark but with out losing detail, nice change I think.

I'll try it, but I have such a hard time with any extra processing done at the TV level. Usually it helps in one area and completely fubars another.

adamjt

12-23-08, 12:34 PM

jwebb1970

12-23-08, 12:52 PM

I recently bought a Tivo HD to replace my Comcast HD box. I have it set to output native resultion to my 51" Hitachi. On 480 content, there are the standard grey bars on either side of the 4:3 image, so I went in setup and changed them to black bars. But, every time I shut the TV off and turn it back on, then go back to 480 content, the side panels/ bars are grey again and I have to change the setting. The black side panel/bar setting doesn't seem to stick.
Any suggestions?

The TV defaults to gray pillarbox bars. It won't stick w/ black ones generated by the F59. This is done for a reason. The risk of CRT phosphor damage ("burn in") is much higher w/ the black side panels. Esp if you run the TV w/ factory user video settings (Contrast cranked to 100, for example). Hitachi makes the set default to gray bars to lessen - but not entirely prevent - burn in of the sidebars. It's mentioned in the owners manual.

In my case, I use a D* HD DVR. It is set to output 1080i at all times. On SD material, the DVR itself outputs sidebars in either gray, dark gray or black. I set them to gray. Then again, 75% or so of all video displayed on my set is widescreen (HD broadcast, HD DVD/Blu/DVD, Wii), so my set sees pillarbox bars-black and/or gray-somewhat infrequently (and the TV has never been run in Torch Mode since Day 1). At best, black sidebars happen on mine for no more than 30 minutes at a time - and not every day. If such an image is going to be on my set for longer, I'll stretch it to fill the screen, either from the TV or the DVR's end.

Mr Bob

12-23-08, 01:09 PM

Any time you are choosing to have black bars up there, you should turn down your contrast substantially for the duration, for all the reasons very excellently stated above. Personally I call it screenburn, leaving the term burn-in for breaking in a set upon first pulling it OOB, but the effect is the same: uneven phosphor aging. MUCH worse on black bars than on gray bars, but if your STB produces black LINES between the content and the gray bars, you're back in the soup for THAT part of the screen, creating lines of demarcation. 50% gray bars that have no black borders will accurately mimic average video content, keeping the phosphors aging evenly across the screen.

Mit actually rotated their images, years ago, just for this purpose.

Screenburn is permanent, and irreversible. It can be remeded by aging the unaged sections to match the aged sections, IF you can get to them - pretty hard when it's the "dish" logo in white - all 3 colors - in the upper left hand corner - but with sidebars you can at least age the sidebars to match the center section if you can do Powerpoint and create the right patterns for yourself.

But ideally it's best to just not go there at all, to use gray bars only when they are without black borders, or stretch your pic to fill your screen.

The manufacturers say don't do it any more than 15% of your viewing, as far as t/b - for 2.35:1 movies played on 16x9 HD screens - and s/s black bars go.

b

jwebb1970

12-23-08, 01:17 PM

On DirecTv, when gray sidebars are generated by the DVR itself, some programming still has small black "strips," if you will, in varying sizes & others fill all the way out.

With the ones that fill out, I leave it as is. With those that still have bits of black - and will be displayed for more than 30 minutes or so - I'll stretch 'em.

In my own experience, the ones w/ some black still remaining tend to be some of the kids programming (Sprout, Nick Jr) that I DL for the kids via DirectOnDemand. Those programs are never more than 20-30 minutes long. If it's a kiddie On Demand marathon, however, I stretch.

But w/ so much of what is watched via satellite in HD, it's not something I need to do often - but I do when appropriate. And even w/ short run times, as soon as an program w/ ANY black or gray sidebars is over & done with, I immediately tune to something screen filling & leave it there for a while.

If we have a sitter over for those rare kid-less nights out & the TV will certainly be on for the duration, I'll set the DVR to strech all non 16x9 content before we walk out the door (babysitter-proofing those CRTS is always recommended!)

Recent example was a TNT showing of Wizard of Oz in HD. Run in the correct aspect ratio (1.33:1-ish with black sidebars), but the commercial breaks, for the most part, were 16x9 HD and/or TNT stretched. And with so many breaks, I figured the phosphors got plenty of "even wear" during the time it was displayed.

And I do check from time to time for any evidence of screen burn (anal retentive paranoia - something I was infected with when I first came to AVS! ;)). The mostly bright white Wii main Channel Menu is a good thing to use to check those screen sides. So far so good - but never running in Torch Mode since the F59 was unboxed surely helps.

LastButNotLeast

12-23-08, 01:22 PM

My red is backed off in the SM. My RBGA is at 3 as opposed to 5. As far as grayscale, I would highly recommend getting an eye1 and calibrating it. You'll be amazed at the difference. Once your grayscale is correct, black crush is less of a problem. My ColorG is at 3. I may try it with 0 and see if I can get my color decoding more to my liking that way, we shall see.

Don't forget (if you care :)) to recheck your grayscale after changes like that. They are ALL interactive - which can be MADDENING at times.

Mr Bob

12-23-08, 01:25 PM

On DirecTv, when gray sidebars are generated by the DVR itself, some programming still has small black "strips," if you will, if varying sizes & others fill all the way out.

When the ones that fill out, I leave it as is. With those that still have bits of black - and will be displayed for mre than 30 minutes or so - I'll stretch 'em.

In my own experience, the ones w/ some black still remaining tend to be some of the kids programming (Sprout, Nick Jr) that I DL for the kids via DirectOnDemand. Those programs are never more than 20-30 minutes long. If it's a kiddie On Demand marathon, I stretch.

But w/ so much of what is watch via satellite in HD, it's not something I need to do often - but I do when appropriate.

My Mit will stretch anything, including HD, sideways in both directions at the touch of its remote's Format button. On HD it will only do that. On SD, it has all sorts of great aspect ratio choices. But I only use 480i for my VCR.

My Dish remote has a Format key also, with all sorts of choices on 1080i, which is how everything appears when set that way, on my VIP 622.

The real threat to my set is the Dish emblems and logos, which are ALWAYS there during Guide and Menu items, full up at all white Torch Mode. I always turn my Contrast to zero and cut my Br in half during those minutes I am in those areas - looking up possible viewings, setting my DVR timer, scanning my DVR'd recordings, etc.

b

jwebb1970

12-23-08, 01:34 PM

My Mit will stretch anything, including HD, sideways in both directions at the touch of its remote's Format button. On HD it will only do that. On SD, it has all sorts of great aspect ratio choices. But I only use 480i for my VCR.

My Dish remote has a Format key also, with all sorts of choices on 1080i, which is how everything appears when set that way, on my VIP 622.

The real threat to my set is the Dish emblems and logos, which are ALWAYS there during Guide and Menu items, full up at all white Torch Mode. I always turn my Contrast to zero and cut my Br in half during those minutes I am in those areas - looking up possible viewings, setting my DVR timer, scanning my DVR'd recordings, etc.

b

Yeah, btwn the D* box & my Hit, I can stretch ANYTHING if need be.

lordcloud

12-23-08, 02:26 PM

Don't forget (if you care :)) to recheck your grayscale after changes like that. They are ALL interactive - which can be MADDENING at times.

Trust me, I check and re-check everything, but color decoding shouldn't change your grayscale. Changing grayscale should affect color decoding, but not vice versa as I understand.

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, I'm at work and not completely in the right state of mind.

LastButNotLeast

12-23-08, 02:45 PM

Trust me, I check and re-check everything, but color decoding shouldn't change your grayscale. Changing grayscale should affect color decoding, but not vice versa as I understand.

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, I'm at work and not completely in the right state of mind.

Here are my graphs from a million years ago:

COLORG = 01

http://img397.imageshack.us/img397/9897/colorg01hd9.jpg

COLORG = 03

http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/2392/colorg03xj8.jpg

Shouldn't? Maybe. Does? Maybe.
:)

See why I put it away?
:D

Michael

Mr Bob

12-23-08, 02:59 PM

I usually only change the R-yr etc registers in Hits, and my changing those has never changed the grayscale. In fact those 4 regs don't change each other either, like they do on the Mits's.

Now the ColorG I don't know, it may be a combo of grayscale and color decoding, as might some other regs in there be also -

b

Mustang68

12-23-08, 08:18 PM

LastButNotLeast

12-24-08, 12:22 AM

I found the only way to get the linear color I wanted was ColorG at 00, which is off. I was able to get the decoder right and had no red push at all.

I am going to try the BE tweak and see what happens. I must admit though that I have a very strong aversion to using any of the SM enhancement settings. I have worked hard to avoid unnecessary circuitry like Lordcloud said. I always find that my Decoder or grayscale suffers when I mess with a gamma type setting. Maybe its my imagination.

Everything you do is "messing with a gamma type setting." Even (especially?) changing brightness and contrast. Changing the drives and cuts is essential to getting a good grayscale. Other settings like COLORG and YOUTG have other effects, probably well understood by the engineers that designed them, but dangerous in the hands of someone just "eyeballing" it.

That's why I got an Eye One. Cheap enough, and taught me a million valuable lessons. So I made the changes and then saw the effect on the gamma curve (and luminance curve, and delta E, and....). Whether you do that in the service menu or the user menu is academic - I assure you, the set doesn't know the difference.

In an ideal world, there would only be one perfect output device that would exactly replicate the source input. Ain't gonna happen. So we need to tweak. Not to get it "better," but to get it "right." It's not "unnecessary circuitry," but quite necessary. You just have to manipulate it carefully. And, as Bob has pointed out, these settings change as the set ages, so recalibration is critical.

Now, if you want to talk about the ambiance settings ("dance hall," "concert hall," etc.) on the new receivers, THERE'S unnecessary circuitry!

ssj2

12-24-08, 10:58 AM

I noticed the same concerns as others after having calibrated my set's greyscale and color decoder with the HCFR software and Eyeone colorimeter. Here's what I learned:

The CBCR adjustments (GY-PH-CBCR, G/BGA-CBCR-STD, RY-PH-CBCR, R/BGA-CBCR-STD) work on the HDMI signal and all component signals except 1080i. For component 1080i select the same adjustments, just use the YPBR settings.

This cleared things up nicely for me. The greyscale and color decoder both measure and look good (except for a bit of green push on the decoder with HDMI). For those who are interested, there's a seperate set of adjustemnts for a standard (non-component or HDMI) 480i signal as well. The color decoder can be very accurately dialed in.

Hope this helps.

lordcloud

12-24-08, 11:51 AM

I found the only way to get the linear color I wanted was ColorG at 00, which is off. I was able to get the decoder right and had no red push at all.

I am going to try the BE tweak and see what happens. I must admit though that I have a very strong aversion to using any of the SM enhancement settings. I have worked hard to avoid unnecessary circuitry like Lordcloud said. I always find that my Decoder or grayscale suffers when I mess with a gamma type setting. Maybe its my imagination.

I will try to do my color decoding with GolorG set to off and see what happens. As you've said, I'm very leary of circuitry I don;t have to use, being in insanely picky audiophile. I can't even consider a speaker if it has an elaborate crossover that's not time and phase correct or a preamp with a balance control or treble or bass controls, but anyway. IN my eyes, any circuitry that is dynamic that's buitl into the set, is inferior and I won;t use it if I don't need it. If it is necessary to acheiving an accurate and/or pleasing picture, than I will. but otherwise, not a chance. My set looks great, and I lean more towards I'll crush blacks in favor of shadow details as opposed to raising the black level and having a less dimensional picture with no absolute black. But to be honest, with my grayscale done properly, I don't have an issue with my black level at all, even if my gamma isn't perfect. I'm not crushing blacks hard and my picture looks great. But I'll do some tweaking over the weekend with all of the suggestions, just to see.

Mr Bob

12-24-08, 12:39 PM

My set looks great, and I lean more towards I'll crush blacks in favor of shadow details as opposed to raising the black level and having a less dimensional picture with no absolute black. But to be honest, with my grayscale done properly, I don't have an issue with my black level at all, even if my gamma isn't perfect. I'm not crushing blacks hard and my picture looks great. But I'll do some tweaking over the weekend with all of the suggestions, just to see.

I feel exactly the same way. I don't miss not having ALL the dark details when the main parts of the pix are accurate, as long as the blacks are absolute black with no color shadings, and crystal clear and transparent. If being able to see the dark details also requires seeing haziness because of goosing up the Br, I let go of the details in favor of the clarity, transparency and crystalinity of the blacks. This can be seen in most of my screenshots, esp. those recent ones of the Victoria's Secret Fashion Show on CBS last year.

GammaX would prolly work well for you. See the links on the bottom of the cover page of my website, for details. A gamma bump only works in RGB space, but there are adapters you can get to make it all work, check out the HD Fury II series, and the Box 1020 series. There are examples of exactly what you're talking about at the link, in terms of screenshots of Before and After/with and without the gamma bump.

I have seen the gamma bump in action on Cliff's G90 double-stack in Indiana, and with that kind of fidelity it's essential. He uses a Moome card for his, specially selected for his equipment chain. HE says it needs to be done on ALL CRT tech!

I know this adds a lot of circuitry to your signal chain and that's the one thing you don't like. However, they do it right. If it were screwing with the signal, it would show in those awesome ceiling pj screenshots over on the Screenshot War thread. It doesn't. They have done their homework and this stuff is ready for prime time, on the really big screens where detail is king.

I have had Kal speak up for me because I've been running that link on my website for months, and HK Mods has sent me samples of the HD Fury II stuff, along with a GammaX and a RGB to component converter. I haven't had the time to HU it all and try it out, perhaps there'll be time for that when I open it all up as my Xmas present(s) to myself!

b

Mustang68

12-24-08, 06:49 PM

Everything you do is "messing with a gamma type setting." Even (especially?) changing brightness and contrast. Changing the drives and cuts is essential to getting a good grayscale. Other settings like COLORG and YOUTG have other effects, probably well understood by the engineers that designed them, but dangerous in the hands of someone just "eyeballing" it.

That's why I got an Eye One. Cheap enough, and taught me a million valuable lessons. So I made the changes and then saw the effect on the gamma curve (and luminance curve, and delta E, and....). Whether you do that in the service menu or the user menu is academic - I assure you, the set doesn't know the difference.

In an ideal world, there would only be one perfect output device that would exactly replicate the source input. Ain't gonna happen. So we need to tweak. Not to get it "better," but to get it "right." It's not "unnecessary circuitry," but quite necessary. You just have to manipulate it carefully. And, as Bob has pointed out, these settings change as the set ages, so recalibration is critical.

Now, if you want to talk about the ambiance settings ("dance hall," "concert hall," etc.) on the new receivers, THERE'S unnecessary circuitry!

I still plan on getting and EyeOne but mainly because I am jealous of your sets PQ and want to get mine dialed in a little more. I will probably end up tweaking it back a little like you did to get the PQ I like as opposed to the one the machine says is perfect.

lordcloud

12-24-08, 07:31 PM

I still plan on getting and EyeOne but mainly because I am jealous of your sets PQ and want to get mine dialed in a little more. I will probably end up tweaking it back a little like you did to get the PQ I like as opposed to the one the machine says is perfect.

The largest reason to get an Eye1, in my opinion, is to get your grayscale as close to perfect as you can get it, and that's far more then reason enough if you ask me.

Mustang68

12-24-08, 09:28 PM

The largest reason to get an Eye1, in my opinion, is to get your grayscale as close to perfect as you can get it, and that's far more then reason enough if you ask me.

Agreed

LastButNotLeast

12-24-08, 11:42 PM

Agreed

Maybe I can put together a rental tour.
:D

BTW, Happy Holidays, everyone.

BFJ 96

12-25-08, 12:22 PM

Happy Holidays to all my fellow HITACHI CRT Owners.....

VivatHD

12-25-08, 04:05 PM

Mustang68

12-26-08, 12:29 AM

So my friend recently got a Samsung LN52A650 LCD 52" 1080p set. Pretty certain its a directview not projection. Checked it out last week. I know it sounds like I'm just being loyal to my 51F59, but after watching his set for a bit with different content playing, I think I like my F59 better. Sounds ludicrous I know. Don't get me wrong, the detail level has a slight edge as expected, due to it being directview not proj, the edges of text seemed crisper, slightly not dramatically. But the biggest thing was it didn't have the dimensional appearance to the picture that my F59 does. By that I mean it while as clear and maybe slightly crisper, it seemed to lack some fidelity or depth which couldn't put my finger on exactly, it was like some transparency was lacking. I told him him he should consider calibrating it, but he said he played with the contrast and brightness quite a bit and had it where he liked it. May be that it is capable of better black level, a more transparent and blacker picture but its how he has it set is why it looked the way it did.

Anyhow, it made me appreciate my F59.

I have the same feelings about some of my buddies flatscreen LCD and plasmas. I can't argue about the sharpness of those 1080p sets. The images almost have that 3D quality because the edges are so sharp. What they lack and mine has is color depth, rich blacks, a cinematic look and feel. I always get the feeling those sets look like photographs compared to RP CRT looking like a fine painting. They have had to admit they love my set even though they cant alway put their finger on why. Honestly I sometime cant find the exact words to describe the reason our sets are better....but they are.

lordcloud

12-26-08, 02:45 AM

I have the same feelings about some of my buddies flatscreen LCD and plasmas. I can't argue about the sharpness of those 1080p sets. The images almost have that 3D quality because the edges are so sharp. What they lack and mine has is color depth, rich blacks, a cinematic look and feel. I always get the feeling those sets look like photographs compared to RP CRT looking like a fine painting. They have had to admit they love my set even though they cant alway put their finger on why. Honestly I sometime cant find the exact words to describe the reason our sets are better....but they are.

My friend..........when you get your set all dialed in to the nth degree, that 3D, photograpic quality........you'll have that too. I promise.

state08

12-26-08, 08:28 PM

My friend..........when you get your set all dialed in to the nth degree, that 3D, photograpic quality........you'll have that too. I promise.

I just want to say that as an owner of 65F59A,

Yes you can get the same quality as LCD/plasma's, but it's just so much work and for the most part, more money.

Mr Bob

12-26-08, 08:43 PM

I just want to say that as an owner of 65F59A,

Yes you can get the same quality as LCD/plasma's, but it's just so much work and for the most part, more money.

More money for what - the Hitachi CRT or the LCD/plasmas?

You CAN'T be saying it costs "more money" for the 65" Hit's than for 65" LCDs/plasmas...

:eek:

b

LastButNotLeast

12-26-08, 09:33 PM

I just want to say that as an owner of 65F59A,

Yes you can get the same quality as LCD/plasma's, but it's just so much work and for the most part, more money.

Welcome aboard.
Glad you're happy with your 65 (which I would have gotten if I had known then what I know now). If you've seen this thread, you know that there are many things you can do to get and keep your set functioning at its best, which is at least as good in many respects as what you'd buy new for many times the cost.
Even if you fly in some hotsy-totsy technician from, say, California ;), your set would be in better than new shape for <$1000. And it would stay that way for years. Which is, indeed, what several of us have done.
Then there's the do-it-yourselfer, who actually enjoys (usually) taking things apart and seeing what makes them tick (does anything actually "tick" anymore?). You've seen the posts and the screenshots. I, personally, have NO interest in any of the new tech, and have had a blast working on my set. It's not for everyone, but it's an option to pursue if you wish.
And if you want WORK, get a projector!

lordcloud

12-27-08, 12:05 AM

I just want to say that as an owner of 65F59A,

Yes you can get the same quality as LCD/plasma's, but it's just so much work and for the most part, more money.

Can't get behind this statement, sorry dude.

I have yet to see an LCD or plasma set that was better than mine, the Kuro is cleaner, and in many respects better, but no LCD is as good as my set that I've seen. I don't agree with the more money part either. My set was less than a grand, and I haven't put much other money into it.

lordcloud

12-27-08, 01:55 PM

Mr Bob

12-27-08, 02:29 PM

Does anyone know if it's possible to lower the light level? Digital sets have a backlighting feature that I am envious of. I would really love to lower the amount of light my set is pushing out. Not contrast, the amount of light it throws. Anyone know?

On CRT, Contrast actually IS the overall light level. Only way I know of to lower it is by lowering the contrast, either in User or sm. The sm will have a master light level reg, but it does the same thing as User contrast.

When I was using my all-automatic Toshiba digital cam for my screenshots, had to lower the contrast on my set accordingly, or it would always overexpose my shots.

b

LastButNotLeast

12-27-08, 03:36 PM

Mustang68

12-27-08, 03:56 PM

BTW my set has that 3D look..its just a more silky look than the razor sharp edges that the 1080p plasma/lcd produce. Now that isn't saying those are more 3d just different. I also went crazy trying to get the little grainy look out of my set until I went to the movies. Hadn't been in a while. I noticed it there too. (James Bond) What I kept trying to in the past was duplicate the slick finish of the other techs sets. What I now know is that my set is showing it like it was meant to be seen.

With that said I still think I have a little noise in the pic.

Mustang68

12-27-08, 11:41 PM

lordcloud

12-28-08, 12:08 AM

I watched Stardust on HD DVD this week. Man I am picking up titles for $6-9 at Frys Electronics. They still have hundreds left. I am always surprised how much the quality of the DVD experience varies from one movie to the next. I have some titles that will blow your socks off while others not. I have learned its not my set. Its the movies themselves. Anyone know why?

Some movies were captured to a higher, or different standard than others. The same is true for how they were encoded as well. Some are scrubbed of grain and fine detail to get that shiny video HD look most people like but I hate, and some movies were are just put on the disc as faithfully as possible to the source material, and the source material itself will vary in quality and style.

Movies looking different on your set is a very good thing. The set should do as much as possible to get out of the way of the material and show you what's on the disc, for better or for worse.

VivatHD

12-28-08, 12:10 AM

Mustang, i think its just the way a particular movie is shot, or maybe the film. I think the graininess you describe is the grain of the film the movie was shot with, which means your TV is showing uber detail-- a good thing. I can see the film grain on myset when a movie is playing on one of the HD cable channels, some movies more than others.

And now to the topic in my subj line: What's a decent Uninterruptable Power Supply or Home Theater UPS I can get to run my 51F59 and my DVR off of?

The electric service in my area is cr@p. It was high winds today and again (happens farily often) we were getting power drops outs today. Electricity would kick off for like 1 second and kick back on. And the Uber S_ck would also happen a few times-- low voltage, really bad-- the lights would go dim I mean real dim then bam the power drops out for a second or two and boom its back on. We were watching the Tv when these dropouts happened, so it was on when it got the doses of low voltage. Its plugged to a Monster Home Theater surge protector, but its not a UPS.

After all this I noticed the 51F59 was looking a bit soft and the color was off slightly-- slight amber cast to everything. Checke convergance and sure enough, I see the French flag in the verticle lines and I see a lot of red fringing excessively in the horizontals, too. Dammit! I have no doubt the d@mn power dropouts today from our lovely public utility service's lousy infrastructure in our suburban area was responsible for the borking of my convergence, since the Tv was looking great before the dropouts and low voltage crashes that preceded several of the dropouts. We're talking a 60 watt bulb going down to what looked like 25 watts output, thats how bad the voltage dropped before going off completely a couple times.

So I reconverged the TV tonight-- have it tight again, for now. Locked it in via DCAM and User 117pt.

But long story short, I want to buy an interruptable power supply to plug the F59 and the Motorola DVR into, nothing uber just one that will give me a few minutes to properly power down my stuff when the Electricity Games happen again some day soon (likely), or one that will automatically power off the TV and DVR.

Thx for listening, bro's.

P.S. Power company knew what was up when I reported it today, they ask "Do you have an outtage or is it just dipping out?" So apparently most of my neighbors also called in w/ same problem. Power Co response was they would patrol the lines in our area to see if they could find where the problem was. Underground utilities in our sub but fed by above ground poles off the main highway.

Mr Bob

12-28-08, 12:03 PM

Movies looking different on your set is a very good thing. The set should do as much as possible to get out of the way of the material and show you what's on the disc, for better or for worse.

The way you know your color decoding is nearing fantastic is when you can recognize a distinct fleshtone on each different person's face, in a room with lots of people in it.

That covers the fleshtones anyway. I know it doesn't cover the rest of the colors. In a red pushed scenario you could be successful at the fleshtones and have every face exhibiting a different fleshtone, yet the greens and blues would still be coming up wilted, rather than vivid like they should be.

When the color decoding is absolutely nailed, the fleshtones on each person's face will be distinct - and possibly different and possibly the same, depending, usually different - and the blues and greens will also be completely accurate - not wilted and not overdone either.

The picture will be absolutely lifelike. After all, that's the goal - suspension of disbelief.

:cool:

b

LastButNotLeast

12-28-08, 03:17 PM

And now to the topic in my subj line: What's a decent Uninterruptable Power Supply or Home Theater UPS I can get to run my 51F59 and my DVR off of?

Check periodically with Dealnews:

http://dealnews.com/categories/Computer/Computer-Accessories/Power-Protection/Battery-Backup-UPSs/337.html

One thing mine has that I HATE is an alarm that you can't turn off. So when the power goes out, the damn thing beeps to let me know the power's out. No sh*t, Sherlock. That info's kind of hard to get from the specs, though.
I have UPS's on everything electronic. The filtering is cheap protection to insure the longevity of my equipment.
The HT UPS has six outlets, all filled. The subwoofer is plugged directly into the receiver, since I ran out of outlets when I got my BD player.
Not the sexiest piece of equipment you'll ever buy, but extremely worthwhile.

Mr Bob

12-28-08, 03:52 PM

Check periodically with Dealnews:

http://dealnews.com/categories/Computer/Computer-Accessories/Power-Protection/Battery-Backup-UPSs/337.html

One thing mine has that I HATE is an alarm that you can't turn off. So when the power goes out, the damn thing beeps to let me know the power's out. No sh*t, Sherlock. That info's kind of hard to get from the specs, though.
I have UPS's on everything electronic. The filtering is cheap protection to insure the longevity of my equipment.
The HT UPS has six outlets, all filled. The subwoofer is plugged directly into the receiver, since I ran out of outlets when I got my BD player.
Not the sexiest piece of equipment you'll ever buy, but extremely worthwhile.

I have all my devices on a master Monster block where I can turn everything off with 1 switch, which I do whenever I go out of town, and try to remember to do in between times.

The DVR is on a UPS, and even that one lost a recording awhile back, when the power was off for an extended period. I always use a UPS on my computer, of course. The size of the battery in there determines how long your sys will stay up in the event of, it's never failed yet for my PC, but then the power has not been off for that long on the PC, either. The better UPSs have a program you can insert into your USB port that will put your PC into Hibernate rather than powering it off and losing all your apps, should the power failure be a long and extended one.

My static conv goes off a bit when I essentially unplug my 73", but not terribly so. I give it 45 minutes warmup and sometimes that's enough to do it. If not I just recenter the crosshairs and I'm back in clover. If the User crosshairs need it more than once, or if going to Factory Reset on conv in User reveals bad crosshairs after the warm-up time, I just go into sm and do it there. My dynamic conv never needs attention due to power failures or diso'ing the set from the wall power.

If the Hit's provided a master crosshair setting it would be better for all concerned. Doing every point just because the entire image has shifted just a bit is nonsensical.

But CAN be done in DCAM, very readily on the newer sets, if you know what keys on the remote do the job. Just be sure it's all warmed up first, or be ready to redo it after the requisite 45 minutes of warmup.

b

lordcloud

12-28-08, 04:49 PM

LastButNotLeast

12-28-08, 07:51 PM

If the Hit's provided a master crosshair setting it would be better for all concerned. Doing every point just because the entire image has shifted just a bit is nonsensical.

They do.

2.12.4 Raster position adjustment (minor)
Adjustment preparation
(1) Position adjustment - This will move an entire
color. Use this adjustment to match colors at the
center of the screen. (Active video center from
external signal and physical screen center
should now match from phase adjustment).
(2) Use the buttons below to switch color to adjust.
“INFO” - Green
“0” - Red
“INPUTS” - Blue

etc.

Mustang68

12-28-08, 07:51 PM

Re did the color decoding on my ex's set using ColorG at 00. I think I like it better. We'll see when I do my set.

I went thru a long trial and error on red push like most did. I went back and forth with the different ColorG settings. I would set it and adjust out the decoder to match the setting. 01 never worked. Red was to strong. 03 came close but with it off I was finally able to get it right on. Only my green on HDMI is a little off. I can't remember who but somebody around here, not you, swears by 03. I just didn't like using it when I could turn it off and get better or same results.

Mustang68

12-28-08, 09:13 PM

They do.

2.12.4 Raster position adjustment (minor)
Adjustment preparation
(1) Position adjustment - This will move an entire
color. Use this adjustment to match colors at the
center of the screen. (Active video center from
external signal and physical screen center
should now match from phase adjustment).
(2) Use the buttons below to switch color to adjust.
“INFO” - Green
“0” - Red
“INPUTS” - Blue

etc.

I need to try this again as I have just developed an S curve with red on the upper left portion of my grid. I barely survived DCAM last time. This time I have Lee's original instructions, Michaels tips, the DCAM Guide and the Manual to go by. What I basically need to do is be able to adjust blue/red vertically. Cure that red curve. If there is a way to just move one point vertically at a time that would be the best choice for me.

LastButNotLeast

12-28-08, 11:44 PM

The way you know your color decoding is nearing fantastic is when you can recognize a distinct fleshtone on each different person's face, in a room with lots of people in it.

That covers the fleshtones anyway. I know it doesn't cover the rest of the colors. In a red pushed scenario you could be successful at the fleshtones and have every face exhibiting a different fleshtone, yet the greens and blues would still be coming up wilted, rather than vivid like they should be.

When the color decoding is absolutely nailed, the fleshtones on each person's face will be distinct - and possibly different and possibly the same, depending, usually different - and the blues and greens will also be completely accurate - not wilted and not overdone either.

The picture will be absolutely lifelike. After all, that's the goal - suspension of disbelief.

:cool:

b

This is my favorite TV (and screenshot) torture test.
From 2001:

http://img296.imageshack.us/img296/7628/2001xx9.jpg

This is recent (tonight, in fact). Those lucky souls following along will notice that it's actually dramatically better than my previous attempts at this scene (see http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14396611#post14396611).

Now to deal with the suspension of disbelief with the REST of the movie!

superleo

12-28-08, 11:50 PM

This is my favorite TV (and screenshot) torture test.
From 2001:

This is recent (tonight, in fact). Those lucky souls following along will notice that it's actually dramatically better than my previous attempts at this scene (see http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14396611#post14396611).

Now to deal with the suspension of disbelief with the REST of the movie!

I can attest to that, it is extremely difficult to make the camera behave ...

Nice job Michael.

LastButNotLeast

12-28-08, 11:51 PM

If there is a way to just move one point vertically at a time that would be the best choice for me.

Sorry, but I don't understand what you mean: that's how you adjust convergence, one point at a time. All 117 of them. Is there something obvious that you or I are/am missing?

Mr Bob

12-29-08, 03:59 AM

LastButNotLeast

12-29-08, 08:25 AM

Yes, in DCAM. They SHOULD have it available in User also. Not all the models do.

b

So Joe Sixpack, who has trouble with color/tint and contrast/brightness, can totally muck up his picture?
Joe can settle for "Magic Focus."

Mr Bob

12-29-08, 09:34 AM

So Joe Sixpack, who has trouble with color/tint and contrast/brightness, can totally muck up his picture?
Joe can settle for "Magic Focus."

Don't agree.

Sony did that, in certain model years they only allowed their Flash Focus - or is it Touch Focus, no I think that's Tosh's - it's not really "Focus" at all, whether flash, touch or magic, it's convergence not focus - to be available to Joe, and it would continue to drift off over the months. No matter how many times you did it, over and over, the red/green horizontal error would continue to show up every time, just as much as the last time. The vertical lines would have painfully obvious red/green offness, and it would only get worse over the months. The only way to get it back on track was to go into the sm and do it there. Now THAT'S asking for trouble!

I think ALL CRT tech should have the crosshairs available to the common man, in User, at all times. I have seen the crosshair drift happen every few days on some sets, and on some sets it's off to a major degree when turned on, for the whole first 45 minutes of the warm up period, before settling in to where it should be.

Being limited to Magic Focus - or Touch or Flash Focus - is not something I would wish even on Joe Sixpack!

:p

b

jwebb1970

12-29-08, 01:38 PM

Now a tweak or trick here, but being the thread most frequented by my F59 bretheren, this is the best place to post IMO.

If you have yet to make the jump to BluRay, may I recommend the Panny BD35 to you?

Got it for XMAS along w/ 8 movies. A killer player! Blu stuff is of course beautiful. And being a 2.0 player, all the online goodies are available (some interesting, most....meh!!). Immediately did the FW update when I hooked it all up. Runs smoothly & boots up/plays a bit faster than the Tosh HDA2 I also have.

To me the biggest improvement is on SD DVD material. I actually believe my eyes that tell me that the BD35 does a nicer job w/ SD DVD than the much lauded HDA2. Esp noticable on video based DVDs. Watched Pink Floyd : Pulse & a few old X Files episodes the other day. BD25 handles video material more nicely than the A2. The 35 also plays back all 4:3 formatted video in the proper aspect with it's own gray sidebars (not generated by the F59 - TV still sees a 1080i signal via HDMI). 4:3 image fills to the gray bars - no "mini black bars". 4:3 letterbox stuff can be zoomed by the 35 to fill the screen. Zoomed DVD movies look very good, althouh artifacts are still visible.

The 35 is now the primary DVD player in the living room. The HDA2 now occupies a component in & is strictly for HD DVD playback. Good thing I have several "red" discs that are rewatchable movies for me!

All in all a great player. Highly recommened! And if you need a coax digital out and/or the option of 5.1/7.1 analog audio outs, the 35's big brother - the BD55 - is also available (for a $100 upgrade).

But these Panny players are an EXCELEENT match for you F59s. And ZERO HDMI issues post shift fix/repair.

Just odd to have 2 movie players in the rack these days (HDDVD & Blu)

superleo

12-29-08, 03:10 PM

Just odd to have 2 movie players in the rack these days (HDDVD & Blu)

Believe it or not, I still have a VCR on the mix, and it gets used once in a while and with the excellent F59 upconvertion it even looks tolerable. ;)

LastButNotLeast

12-29-08, 09:13 PM

Just odd to have 2 movie players in the rack these days (HDDVD & Blu)

That makes you (us, actually) purple.
The A2 was never a fabulous upconverter. That's the XA2. I have Onkyo's version, the 805.
So I got a cheapo Blu player (the Memorex 2510, because of the 5.1 analog outputs), and still use the 805 for upconverting.
The Panny is, indeed, a nice unit. Unfortunately, I would have needed the 55, which is, as you say, substantially more.
And, yes, I too have a VCR, part of a VCR-DVR unit. And the back of my wall unit is a MESS!
Enjoy your new toy(s).

jwebb1970

12-30-08, 01:40 AM

Believe it or not, I still have a VCR on the mix, and it gets used once in a while and with the excellent F59 upconvertion it even looks tolerable. ;)

Where the VCR used to be is now taken up by an old N64, in my case. :)

VHS Finally ditched about 6 mos. ago.

lordcloud

12-30-08, 09:21 PM

That makes you (us, actually) purple.
The A2 was never a fabulous upconverter. That's the XA2. I have Onkyo's version, the 805.
So I got a cheapo Blu player (the Memorex 2510, because of the 5.1 analog outputs), and still use the 805 for upconverting.
The Panny is, indeed, a nice unit. Unfortunately, I would have needed the 55, which is, as you say, substantially more.
And, yes, I too have a VCR, part of a VCR-DVR unit. And the back of my wall unit is a MESS!
Enjoy your new toy(s).

I have the A3 and it's a horrible upconverter, it rings like a doorbell.

Mustang68

12-30-08, 09:39 PM

I'm still buying up HD DVD's and enjoying them on my A20. IMO its a great player for the Hit.

P.S. I let my set run for about 1 hour today and the red curve on 117p convergence was gone. There was still a little red vertical problems in that area. After doing convergence I tightened it up pretty good. I dont why I'm getting this drift. Its not terrible but seems persistent.

Bonzo

12-31-08, 12:27 AM

Mr Bob

12-31-08, 02:32 AM

lordcloud

12-31-08, 03:15 AM

lordcloud

12-31-08, 11:31 AM

With ColorG at off, I have BEAUTIFUL color! No red push, I don;t have to back down on red saturation or change the tint from where it should be. ColorG at 00 is the $h!z.

Mustang68

12-31-08, 01:05 PM

You're letting it warm up for at least 45 minutes before making any judgments on how it's working, right?

b

Yes, I took your advise a couple of post back and am doing that now. I guess I need to do DCAM but I just hate the room for error in that mode. Would there be a noticiable difference if I went and tweaked the vertical? I dont see it in pics but on white letters I can see a hint of red on the edges of the words. Logo's and such.

Mustang68

12-31-08, 01:10 PM

With ColorG at off, I have BEAUTIFUL color! No red push, I don;t have to back down on red saturation or change the tint from where it should be. ColorG at 00 is the $h!z.

I went through a long period of red push problems and finally went to ColorG at 00. 03 is close but still will not give you the true red tint that the pic meant. My best example was a cooking show where the chef was wearing a red sweater. Up until 00 the sweater always looked burgundy or slightly off red. Once I went 00 it was a true looking red.

lordcloud

12-31-08, 01:13 PM

I went through a long period of red push problems and finally went to ColorG at 00. 03 is close but still will not give you the true red tint that the pic meant. My best example was a cooking show where the chef was wearing a red sweater. Up until 00 the sweater always looked burgundy or slightly off red. Once I went 00 it was a true looking red.

With ColorG at 03, reds were too strong for me. As I said earlier, I had to turn red down to 2 or 3 where Avia says it should be at 5. I also had to move the tint of red over to 00 as opposed to 03 or 02 where Avia said it should be. Now, I don't have to change it at all, and reds look more natural, as do other colors as well. I like it better.

lordcloud

12-31-08, 01:18 PM

jwebb1970

12-31-08, 02:11 PM

I have the BD55 & cant figure out how to do the firmware update. Do you burn it to a cd? A dvd?

Neither - I connected it via ethernet to my DSL service. Have a Powerline setup giving me a "hardwired" Internet line to the living room (off of office router). Using a ethernet switch in the AV rack to split the Powerline connection btwn D* HD DVR & BD35.

If you go the "burn" route - only a CD-R is needed & from what I have read must be burned as a "data" disc not an ISO file.

jwebb1970

12-31-08, 02:13 PM

And if you guys haven't gotten a blu ray palyer, you really need to do so. Watching movies in HD on these sets is just glorious. I have had the Sammy 1200 for a while now and I love it. The thing that sets it apart from all other Blu Ray players is it's superlative scaling and video processing for SD DVDs. I would recommend one if it played all Blu Rays with no problem. But I plan on getting an Oppo as soon as they become available. Or maybe getting a Pioneer Blu Ray player and getting a Lumagen for the SD work load.

The Panny BD35 & 55 also do a wonderful job w/ SD DVD stuff. Best SD DVD upconversion I have had to date. My new BD35 is the primary disc player now, with the HDA2 only being used for HD DVDs.

The BD35, btw, was CNET's highest rated BD player this year - stands toe-to-toe w/ the PS3 in terms of Blu Ray playback & additional goodies. Has seen a lot of action since XMAS day & has been trouble free. Plays everything I have thrown in it flawlessly.

SinrSavdByGrace

01-01-09, 11:44 AM

Tried ColorG at 00 today. Oh yeah, no way I'm going back to 03. 00 is far better, I should have known. God I love this set. Now if there's still a 65 incher around when I move into a place without a stairway with a tight corner!

:):Dmy 65" has the option to take it apart in the middle of it . i think that you could get it around stairs no problem ,makes it very light aswell:D

Mustang68

01-01-09, 11:59 AM

:):Dmy 65" has the option to take it apart in the middle of it . i think that you could get it around stairs no problem ,makes it very light aswell:D

So does the 51. A neat option that Hit included. Didn't look hard either.

lordcloud

01-01-09, 02:02 PM

:):Dmy 65" has the option to take it apart in the middle of it . i think that you could get it around stairs no problem ,makes it very light aswell:D

I knew it did, but for some reason I had completely forgotten about it. Hmmmm..............

Mr Bob

01-01-09, 04:39 PM

Yes, I took your advise a couple of post back and am doing that now. I guess I need to do DCAM but I just hate the room for error in that mode. Would there be a noticiable difference if I went and tweaked the vertical? I dont see it in pics but on white letters I can see a hint of red on the edges of the words. Logo's and such.

What room for error? You're not using your MF there, you can elect to not use it after a DCAM cal.

You need to do it once or twice rather than just once, but it does stay after that. DK how DCAM differers from User menu...

b

Mr Bob

01-01-09, 04:45 PM

The BD35, btw, was CNET's highest rated BD player this year - stands toe-to-toe w/ the PS3 in terms of Blu Ray playback & additional goodies.

Have you found that the PS3 via component does not deliver blacker than black/btb? The BD images from PS3 in the last 2 cals I have done have been utterly starved for their shadow detail. I find it hard to believe PS3 is so highly rated when that's the case.

:confused:

b

jwebb1970

01-01-09, 11:21 PM

VivatHD

01-01-09, 11:29 PM

My formula for drift resistance (convergence):

1. I do a tight user 117pt, save.
2. I go into DCAM to verify it there, touchup if need be, save to ROM a few times
3. I initialize Magic Focus (not really needed as I never use it but just seems the right thing to do)
4. I exit DCAM (PLAY then EXIT on remote) but I don't power the set off with the MENU ZERO ONE sequence on the remote-- I do the sequence to put the remote back into TV mode, but I take it in another room to do it so it doesn't signal the television to power off.
5. I then go into user 117pt and make no changes, just save by selecting DONE.

When I do the above, the picture is drop dead tight. I just did this tonight and watched the Orange Bowl game. Sports in HD broadcast (especially night football with all the xenon lighting or whatever they use for the night games) will jump out and GRAB you when you have a tight convergence dialed in.

The challenge with this set is if the super tight picture right after dialing the convergence in, will stay that way as weeks start passing. Mine always seems to soften ever so slightly after maybe a month. Hugely annoying.

P.S. I wonder if initializing the Magic Focus (#3 above) might be why I'm getting the slight drift? Next time I may skip MF initialization and see if that fosters a longer period between touch-up's. Also, I get to DCAM via the soft method: TV+ASPECT+9 on the remote, then release and hit STOP on the VCR portion @ bottom of remote. I don't take the cover off the TV and hit the blue button-- too much trouble when the key sequence method on the remote takes me to the same DCAM.

Mr Bob

01-01-09, 11:57 PM

Whenever I do a cal, I give MF its due ONCE, by initializing it once, and only after first pass. After that I leave it alone, on all subsequent passes. Since it always mulches up whatever precision I have instilled in the pic whenever it's used, both on DCAM and in User, I don't depend on it for ANYTHING, and only give it respect once. (even THAT is not the respect it REALLY deserves, which is near zero...)

I just think it's good to keep it at least close to optimal, even tho I am not willing to do all the passes it takes to really dial it in, along with the rest of the passes I'm already needing to be doing just for dialing in the pic itself, WITHOUT the MF being involved. Hit's only grab MOST of the corrections, they never grab them all on the first take, like other brands do. So multiple passes will always be needed, and I don't take the time to do multiple MF init passes.

I have never been around these cal'd sets weeks and months later, to see what happens. But I don't get calls from my owners about it later either, so I must be doing something right...

:p

b

Mustang68

01-02-09, 11:51 PM

VivatHD

01-03-09, 12:19 AM

superleo

01-03-09, 08:35 AM

I couldn't get into DCAM this time using the remote. I held down the TV key and pushed the menu, info key then released the TV key. Am I missing something? I know this was the way I thought I got into it last time. I never could find that little blue button I've read about before.

On mine is very unpredictable, it might go into DCAM the very first time and other times it might take several tries. I even change batteries when it is being difficult too make sure the remote is working.

lordcloud

01-03-09, 09:09 AM

Hold down [TV] key, then press [ASPECT] + [9], then press [STOP] (key w/ square symbol on the VCR/DVD keypad part of remote near bottom). Should get some large green characters on the screen and the DCAM grid should come up. On mine I have to do the [TV]+[MENU]+[INFO] sequence followed by [TV]+[0]+[1] a time or two before the cursor will respond to inputs on the grid.

[PLAY] + [EXIT] to exit DCAM mode. (Play = on the VCR/DVD keypad portion of remote @ bottom). Once out of DCAM, [TV]+[0]+[1] to put remote back into regular tv mode. If the remote is where the tv can receive the remote's signal, the [TV]+[0]+[1] sequence will power off the tv as it puts the remote back into tv mode. This is why I go in another room to do [TV]+[0]+[1]... to get out of range and line of sight so that [TV]+[0]+[1] doesn't power off the tv.

A warning to all who go into DCAM using the remote! I can't even tell you how I did it, but there is a way to totally hose your grayscale and other settings if you press the wrong button when doing this. I have frequently in the past hit a wrong button not knowing it was in DCAM mode and it switched inputs and the brightness and/or contrast was at 100% all of a sudden. The worst time was when it completely reset my grayscale settings. Wish I could say exsactly whjat did it, but I don't know. Maybe someone else does?

Having said that, as long as you're careful, using the remote is the easiest way to go into DCAM and thank God for it! I usually hold TV, hit Aspect and then 9 and then the stop button and I'm good. After that I have to hold TV, then hit menu, then info, and then do the TV, 0, 1 thing. I tried doing the 117 point convergence, and then going into DCAm, and I swear it helps. My pic last night was extremely tight after doing so.

I want a 65 incher so bad!!!!

Mustang68

01-03-09, 11:27 AM

A warning to all who go into DCAM using the remote! I can't even tell you how I did it, but there is a way to totally hose your grayscale and other settings if you press the wrong button when doing this. I have frequently in the past hit a wrong button not knowing it was in DCAM mode and it switched inputs and the brightness and/or contrast was at 100% all of a sudden. The worst time was when it completely reset my grayscale settings. Wish I could say exsactly whjat did it, but I don't know. Maybe someone else does?

Having said that, as long as you're careful, using the remote is the easiest way to go into DCAM and thank God for it! I usually hold TV, hit Aspect and then 9 and then the stop button and I'm good. After that I have to hold TV, then hit menu, then info, and then do the TV, 0, 1 thing. I tried doing the 117 point convergence, and then going into DCAm, and I swear it helps. My pic last night was extremely tight after doing so.

I want a 65 incher so bad!!!!

The first time I went in I hosed the contrast setting like you described. I dont know what I did wrong either. After that I did a quick point adjustment and got out. BTW I almost hosed that also. THis time I have decided to start over and not assume I know anything. Thanks guys. My horizontal and most of my vertical is spot on. I have about 20% vertical though that is showing the french flag. I want to converge those so my pic is as tight as I can get it.

lordcloud

01-03-09, 01:45 PM

Mustang!!!!!!! DUDE!!!!!! I have to thank you again for bringing up the colorG at 00! Holy $h!t it looks nice now! I now have a much wider gamut of colors than I had before, which is especially noticeable on fleshtones. It is very reminiscent of watching a movie at the theater on a............cringe..........PROFESSIONAL CINEMA(huge Barco or Christie) digital projector. Now before I'm lynched, let me explain. DCI has a much wider color space than SD and even HD and it's easy to see that on a good digital projector in a good theater, which I'm lucky to have a lot of here in Utah of all places. So in a typical digital cinema, I see a much larger range of colors, epecially in faces, than I do in most people's systems. It's great!

VivatHD

01-03-09, 01:59 PM

Mustang68

01-03-09, 02:40 PM

lordcloud do you mean DLP digital projectors? When we went to see Valkryie last week after all the previews there was a promo screen that played that showcased that they were using a DLP projector, I can't remember the brand name. I do know that the picture fidelity was excellent-- deep inky blacks yet good shadow detail, with super crisp color spectrum as well as good tightness and clarity.

No prob Lordcloud. I went through about 3 months of messing with red push before I finally went 00 and was able to get the Decoder spot right.

ON this post though I'm surprised that anything not CRT could get inky blacks and great shadow detail. I guess were talking about a different animal when its the Cinema level as opposed to the home version DLP. My in laws have a very nice 52 inch Sony DLP that still can't reach the level of my set.

lordcloud

01-03-09, 04:08 PM

lordcloud do you mean DLP digital projectors? When we went to see Valkryie last week after all the previews there was a promo screen that played that showcased that they were using a DLP projector, I can't remember the brand name. I do know that the picture fidelity was excellent-- deep inky blacks yet good shadow detail, with super crisp color spectrum as well as good tightness and clarity.

DCI color space would encompass DLP as well as SXRD or any other type of digital projector, it's just the color decoding.

I saw Valkryie on Saturday(good movie byt the way) as well and it looked very very nice. The thing about movie theaters is that they never have done absolute black liek CRT does. Becasue the screen is so big, we don't notice it and the blacks look better.

lordcloud

01-03-09, 04:11 PM

No prob Lordcloud. I went through about 3 months of messing with red push before I finally went 00 and was able to get the Decoder spot right.

ON this post though I'm surprised that anything not CRT could get inky blacks and great shadow detail. I guess were talking about a different animal when its the Cinema level as opposed to the home version DLP. My in laws have a very nice 52 inch Sony DLP that still can't reach the level of my set.

In doing a little research, I came upona post where someone was talking about calibrating their plasma and that when they calibrated it, red and green were too far out. They were pondering whether it was useful or even purposefully done for the DCI spec. Likely? I don't know. But it makes me question whether 03 would work better with media with a wider or different color gamut.

My ex brother in law has a 60 inch DLP, not even close in black level. it's almost funny. How do they push these things on the public and they accept them with no problem? Never mind, I already know.

lordcloud

01-03-09, 04:13 PM

Re reading my post, I should have said PROFESSIONAL CINEMA digital projector. I'm ammending it now.

wjmfour

01-04-09, 04:30 PM

Tried JWEBB's EPROM2 HDMI fix and it has worked for a while. I am now having issues when I change channels from a HD channel to a regular cable channel. Confirmed EPROM2 settings had not changed. Non - HD channels are greenish/purpleish and HD looks good. Anyone seen this issue or any suggestions? I am using a Comcast box and a DVI to HDMI cable between box and set. Any help would be appreciated.

bonj87

01-06-09, 11:02 PM

My new block comes in Thursday....

|Tch0rT|

01-07-09, 08:34 AM

Have you found that the PS3 via component does not deliver blacker than black/btb? The BD images from PS3 in the last 2 cals I have done have been utterly starved for their shadow detail. I find it hard to believe PS3 is so highly rated when that's the case.

:confused:

b

The PS3 apparently has some strange video settings. Take a look at this link:
http://gear.ign.com/articles/938/938051p3.html

Display Settings

You can find "Display Settings" just below "Printer Settings" toward the bottom of the main "Settings" queue. This area of settings determines the overall video output settings for your PlayStation 3. Most of the settings in this subsection are largely subjective. Output resolutions will vary with each television, and user-preference determines the screensaver. The two main settings we need to view and tweak are "RGB Full Range (HDMI)" and "Y Pb/Cb Pr/Cr Super-White (HDMI)."

RGB Full Range (HDMI)

This setting pertains to how wide the RGB color output of your PlayStation 3 is. There are two options within this setting "Limited" or "Full." "Limited" delivers a more subdued, albeit more naturalistic, color range, while "Full" produces both brighter and richer tones on both ends of the spectrum. As a result of the "Full" spectrum, many intermediate shades get lost in the mix. On the other hand, some users may find that "Full" is better for their particular TV, however, we found that in most cases "Limited" produced the best results.

Recommended Setting: "Limited"

Y Pb/Cb Pr/Cr Super-White (HDMI)

The "Super-White" feature on the PS3 is designed to present deeper black levels and brighter whites during video playback with supported TVs. This feature only works with displays that accept Y Pb/Cb Pr/Cr signals via HDMI. If you are unsure about whether or not your display accepts Y Pb/Cb Pr/Cr via HDMI, don't fret! You can leave this feature set to "On" in any case. If your TV supports it, then you get the full benefit. If not, it has no negative impact on your picture.

Recommended Setting: "On"

That maybe the problem regarding that.

Ryan

Angelo M

01-07-09, 12:32 PM

I've been a proud Hitachi rptv owner since Jan 2003. Its a 51uwx20b. Every once in a while I like to tweak/ play around with the settings in the isf menu.

I didn't want to start a new thread since this is an older model.

I had a question about the subbright setting. Is it just like the brightness in the user menu? Lets say i center the brightness in the user menu to 50. Then go into the service menu, put up an avia pluge pattern for the brightness bars, and adjust the subbrightness setting til I just see the moving bar on the right. Sound right? Or is subbright for something else?

By the way, Ive been looking for a 65inch hitachi rvpt on craigslist. When I do see them infrequently most are asking around $1000.00 which I think is pretty steep. (may be just me) I'm thinking more like $300-400 is fair, considering no burn in, nice shape, etc. What do you all think.

LastButNotLeast

01-07-09, 02:12 PM

By the way, Ive been looking for a 65inch hitachi rvpt on craigslist. When I do see them infrequently most are asking around $1000.00 which I think is pretty steep. (may be just me) I'm thinking more like $300-400 is fair, considering no burn in, nice shape, etc. What do you all think.

Don't know what kind of luck you'll have (since you just missed a big blowout), but THE place to look is here:
www.uecweb.com
Authorized Hitachi refurbs.
Check often. Good luck.

lordcloud

01-07-09, 05:44 PM

There's a 65 incher in my area for $750. I may have to get it!

Angelo M

01-07-09, 07:42 PM

Hey! I purchased my Hitachi on the UEC web in Dec 2002. Back then it was 2400 new in stores and I bought it for around 1250 + 200 to ship. It was a very good deal back then.

I do check the uec web occasionally but haven't seen any crt rptv for about a good month there.

What I'm looking for is a 65swx20b, or 65xwx20b. They had the 5 element wide-neck crt lens.

I have seen the 65f59 on uec for around 759 which is pretty smokin' but they must be all out of crt hdtv's.

I have seen 65in Hitachis on ebay, there was one in Florida a few weeks ago for 350.00 buy it now in great shape, but pick up only. I figured 3500 miles round trip was too far though

Mustang68

01-07-09, 07:57 PM

lordcloud

01-09-09, 02:28 PM

Ok, so I removed the screen last night to see if shimming was a possibility, and from the looks at it so far, I don't see how it can be done easily. There doesn't seem to be anything that supoports all three guns at once.

I also made a lens hood simliar in design to Owen's since it seemed a lot easier than the normal ones I've seen and it made as much sense. So I basically have two pieces of cardboard that I covered in black fabric that I'm using. So far, I would recommend this to any and everyone. I was asking earlier about reducing the light level I see on screen and this is the answer. Before, the indirect light was hitting the screen and contaminating the picture, creating a brighter pic than I wanted. Now, the pic is a lot more "solid" and substantial. Highly recommended.

superleo

01-09-09, 03:54 PM

lordcloud

01-09-09, 04:46 PM

If you look in the service manual page 5, it shows the diagram of how the guns are supported (shield plate C). This plate is the one that needs to be loosened up and raise.

Keep us posted.

I'll have to take a look. Keep you posted I will.

Mustang68

01-09-09, 07:39 PM

I'll have to take a look. Keep you posted I will.

What would shimming accomplish? What would need redone if you did shim? I imagine that you would make a tighter more focused pic but would have to redo geometry:confused: How about focus. I can tell you I am not up to geometry if it takes screen jigs and the like.

Beerstalker

01-09-09, 09:37 PM

sewerdog

01-09-09, 09:58 PM

Mr Bob

01-09-09, 10:20 PM

The PS3 apparently has some strange video settings. Take a look at this link:
http://gear.ign.com/articles/938/938051p3.html

That maybe the problem regarding that.

Ryan

I'll have to check that out next chance I get.

If you can, try BD DVE on the pluge pattern, and see if you can get the last stripes out at the edges to come in.

b

Mr Bob

01-09-09, 10:27 PM

What would shimming accomplish? What would need redone if you did shim? I imagine that you would make a tighter more focused pic but would have to redo geometry:confused: How about focus. I can tell you I am not up to geometry if it takes screen jigs and the like.

If you have factory sized o'scan, this is the best way to reduce it. If you've already reduced it, to shim instead you would prolly have to put it back where it was originally, as long as it has not been there too long in the new position. I think a year would be the cutoff for me.

Once you do the shimming, yes you have to refocus, regeo and reconv. But it's worth it. I did my 73" twice, and it only took and hour or 2 each time, for the focusing, and geo/conv.

What it accomplishes is allowing you to sit far closer to your set, allowing for a much bigger pic to be able to watch and get lost in. My gain was 20% - I now have a 20% bigger pic to watch JUST because of the shimming mod.

Before, with regular o'scan via sm only, I was sitting 10' back. With the shimming I can sit 8' back instead, delivering my eyes a 20% larger pic!

b

lordcloud

01-10-09, 09:55 AM

I'm with you Mustang. I would love to do the shimming, but if it requires geometry work other than the 119 point convergence grid I don't think I can do it.

I am still thinking about lining with Duvetyne and making a lense hood though. Anyone know of a good online place to buy Duvetyne. I haven't found it locally yet. Also, if anyone has dimensions/designs for a lense hood for the 57F59A and 65F710A I would love to see them.

The DCAM is not too different from doing the 119 point convergence, as long as you read the steps, its a pice of cake.

The lens hood I made was a model of simplicity. I used two pieces of cardboard covered in black material. They were the length of the interior of the cabinet where they rested. I simply made sure they were tall enough to cover the CRTs as much as possible without interfering with the pic. Its my second attempt and I think it's successful, but I'm still investigating. There's a pic of Owen's old Hitachi with it done and mine looks essentially the same, I'll try and find it for you. I can tell you that so far it's really worth it, it adds a level of dimensionality to the picture that I love.

lordcloud

01-10-09, 10:54 AM

Here'a a pic of Owens Hitachi. Mine is basically the same, except for the materials used.

http://img71.imageshack.us/img71/5571/75169965ys2.jpg

Mustang68

01-10-09, 11:20 AM

problems with the HDMI cables I have an Hitachi 51 in I was having problems the tv was turning off and on then the picture would go away and in its place were thousands of colored squares I have AT&T Uverse when the man came out he looked at the box and told the problem was with my DVR box he said it was not compatiable with an HDMI cable he said they have had the problem for over a year he hooked the box up with some hi def component cables and i have not had a problem since. has this happened to anyone else?

It sounds like to me that your set has never received the HDMI fix that we have discussed. Not the hardware signal block work but the actual firmware update. It can be done via SM on your own. I believe JWEBB posted it ages ago. I will look. If you have done that then maybe it could be what the tech said but I wouldn't put much stock in what the AT&T cable guy said.

Mustang68

01-10-09, 11:25 AM

I did the lens hood and used a large sharpie for the blackout. I have opened it up and sharpied twice and its pretty blacked out. I think the Duventyne is better but not by that much. Depends on how much you go in there and work on sharpie-ing the inside. The sharpie work added deeper blacks for me and the hood reduced stray light that was filtering into my blacks. If you sharpie make sure you pay attention to the sides of the lens assembly. There are two gaps that allow the guns light to flow out. You will need to make sure they are covered with something to reduce that. Again the Duventyne will cover that if you do it right.

On the other note I have 4% and 5% OVERSCAN. I sit 9 feet away from the set. Unless the shimming can really make a big difference in the focus of the pic and add sharpness I cant see doing the mod. I have heard all the stories on Screen Jigs and it seems like quite a bit of work. Maybe I will change my mind if I hear some good compelling stories in support of it.

superleo

01-10-09, 12:36 PM

Mustang68

01-10-09, 01:14 PM

I'm a believer!!! and I'll do the mod, my problem is set downtime. As soon as the set has a day or so it's DONE!. I even have the wooden shims ready, and I'll use Owens dimensions for the shims 70mm.

Hopefully a day to do it will be enough time.

Let us know how it goes. I'm not ruling it out. It just has to be a significant change. A lot of mods, value changes are so minor I sometimes think they are hopeful wishing or user preference. I dont want to go through heck if the advantages are almost undetectable.

fiddlesticks

01-10-09, 04:44 PM

Mustang68

01-11-09, 01:38 PM

Lining the inside and making a lens hood are a must. I cut down my internal reflections considerably using the lens hood directions here, though I need to make it a bit taller I think as I'm still getting some slight halo effects. The space scenes in 2001 are a good guide.

I'm also interested in hearing others' experience with overscan-reduction; I'd love to bring mine in some but am too scared or uninformed to try and get geometry back in line.

Also, what's the best method for getting grayscale spot-on? I don't really want to buy any other equipment...are Avia or DVE suitable for this? I still have a slight pinkish tone to mine and need a guide before I start messing with values again.

I tried the different patterns on DVE and never quite got it there. They are good for distinguishing between the Drive and Cut settings. I used them to get those two settings close. I then used a pure B&W picture, the beginning of U2 Rattle and Hum is always a good suggestion and dialed it in by going up 2 values say on green and going down 2 values on blue. I think red kinda adjusted on its own more as blue and green seemed to interact together. I used a phone consult with Mr. Bob to dial it in. I imagine if I put an Eye One on it there would be a little adjustment left but B&W pics look really true. A good flick is Good Night and Good Luck for B&W material. Mine showed no tint of red or blue. I always have my suspicions on Green because it never dials in in the Decoder. With that said I really dont see it on B&W though.

THis is all thru HDMI. IF you use component just unhook two of the three cables (dont remember which) and you can get a B&W pic that way.

LastButNotLeast

01-11-09, 05:27 PM

Also, what's the best method for getting grayscale spot-on? I don't really want to buy any other equipment...are Avia or DVE suitable for this? I still have a slight pinkish tone to mine and need a guide before I start messing with values again.

Best method? Pay someone to come in and calibrate it for you. :D
Next best, buy an Eye One (or the more expensive Pro model) and pay someone to teach you how to use it. :)
3. Buy an Eye One and CalMan, which walks you through it pretty well.
4. Buy an Eye One and download ColorHCFR and pay someone to help you out (probably still less than CalMan).
5. Buy an Eye One and download ColorHCFR and figure it out yourself (that was my way, incidentally).
6. Call Mr. Bob for a phone consultation and he'll give you an idea of what you should be trying to do and looking for.
Obviously, the answer to your second question (Avia/DVE) is no. You cannot get "spot-on" grayscale by eye unless you have years of experience (a la Jedi Master Bob).
But you have nothing to lose by "messing with values again." ;)

Mustang68

01-11-09, 08:49 PM

Well Michael is right. Grayscale is tricky. I know I'm off a little but haven't bought the Eyeone yet to confirm it. Still messing with those values will get you close. When I first did it I adjusted way to far to one side. Bob taught me to make minor adjustments at a time. You also have to walk away for a little while to get your eyes reset. Those values interact with so much that once you do the adjustments its back to the Decoder. The Decoder cant adjust gray scale but the gray scale will affect it. I'm sure you know all this though. I would just go in and make small adjustments to Cut and Drive until that B&W picture has no hint of color tint.

fiddlesticks

01-11-09, 09:29 PM

Thanks for the input guys, you gave me a better base to go with. Spending money on a Mr. Bob or other calibration device is not an option right now, so I'll just keep tinkering. ;)

lordcloud

01-12-09, 01:41 AM

Thanks for the input guys, you gave me a better base to go with. Spending money on a Mr. Bob or other calibration device is not an option right now, so I'll just keep tinkering. ;)

You won't get your grayscale close without instrumentation. As much as I messed around with my grayscale, I promise you'll end up with a pic that's skewed to blue. I've found that the grayscale is the basis for all other adjustments and is the one thing that needs to be correct or as close to correct for any of the other adjustments to make the impact they're capable of making. As I've said before, you can't resolve as much without your grayscale being right. There was a lot more information onscreen once I got my grayscale correct. If you can, I'm telling you, get an Eye One and do it right.

Mr Bob

01-12-09, 04:55 PM

Let us know how it goes. I'm not ruling it out. It just has to be a significant change. A lot of mods, value changes are so minor I sometimes think they are hopeful wishing or user preference. I dont want to go through heck if the advantages are almost undetectable.

If you sit far enough back it won't matter. The shimming mod is for those diehards like me who want to sit as close as humanly possible to their display.

Cliff has me trumped by sitting his width on his G90 double-stack, but I sit 8' back from my 73", and before the mod my best distance possible was 10' back. It increased my pic size by 20%! No going back now - or wanting to! It's a permanent part of my set's design, now. I'll NEVER put it back the way it was. This is how it shoulda been designed in the first place.

b

Mr Bob

01-12-09, 04:59 PM

IF you use component just unhook two of the three cables (dont remember which) and you can get a B&W pic that way.

Disco Pb and Pr. Y only, is empircal b/w.

b

Mr Bob

01-12-09, 05:04 PM

You cannot get "spot-on" grayscale by eye unless you have years of experience (a la Jedi Master Bob).

May I quote you on that?

:D

b

LastButNotLeast

01-12-09, 06:26 PM

May I quote you on that?

:D

b

I would be pleased to be quoted by you in any context. Please feel free.
And, again, since I don't see it often enough on the boards, thanks for all your help and encouragement, from me and everyone else here.
Michael

estigmatico

01-12-09, 06:45 PM

Mr Bob

01-12-09, 06:52 PM

Hi i have a 57f59a hitachi TV. i bought 1 year ago, i only use to see movies and play ps2 2 or 3 hours at week. My problem is that the tv see a litle green, the black and white movies see a litle green a try to graduate with a color correction but no results, Could you help me....

Color correction is color differentiation, and as such cannot impove b/w, which is no color, and is what the grayscale is.

You gotta get that grayscale realigned properly.

b

estigmatico

01-12-09, 07:01 PM

how can i correct the grayscale? im now on this.....thanks a lot

LastButNotLeast

01-12-09, 08:58 PM

how can i correct the grayscale? im now on this.....thanks a lot

The answer to that question would require - well - a whole thread. Daunting as it may appear, start at post 1 and read it through. It won't make sense at first, but it will get clearer as you become more familiar with the material.
Whether you decide to tackle the problem yourself is up to you. The info is here, but there's a learning curve that you may consider more trouble than it's worth.
But your set can look fabulous.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=15434105#post15434105

estigmatico

01-12-09, 09:06 PM

my 57f59a looks a little green, why?

Mustang68

01-12-09, 10:55 PM

my 57f59a looks a little green, why?

LastbutLeast just answered it. Your grayscale is off. You have to adjust that first. Its the GY, GBA ect...values found in the service menu. Probably should invest in DVE or AVIA calibration disk first. Anyway read the post advised above. There is a tremendous learning curve if your a novice. Those values are tricky and depend on what input (HDMI, Component) your are using as well.

P.S> Look at me guys. Remember when I couldn't get into the SM. Now I can give a little advice now and then. Not claiming Michael, Lee, or Mr. Bob status but still.

estigmatico

01-12-09, 11:43 PM

how can i enter in service mode?

thanks a lot

Mr Bob

01-13-09, 02:21 AM

LastbutLeast just answered it. Your grayscale is off. You have to adjust that first. Its the GY, GBA ect...values found in the service menu.

No Mustang, that's the color decoding. The grayscale is the cuts and drives.

my 57f59a looks a little green, why?

how can i enter in service mode?

This is not for the novice. There is a horrendous learning curve. If you want it done right, get an ISF grade calibrator on it.

Or do a phone coaching session with me and I'll do the same for you that I did for Mustang. It would include getting into the sm if necessary, and possibly doing it manually if possible, which would be the simplest way out.

The simple answer is that if the greens are in your darks, the G cutoff has to come down a bit, either in sm or at the focus block, all of which contain possibilities that can be hazardous to the health of your picture if not used knowingly and wisely.

If it's in the whites, the red and blue drives have to come up. This is rare.

If it's on all modes and scanrates in the darks, the G screen trimpot on the focus block could be used to dial it back down a bit, to where it's supposed to be.

That said, all of those solutions LOOK easy, and are for a pro. For a novice, it could be a sure ticket to image hell, so choose from your options wisely at this point.

b

Paul33993

01-13-09, 08:44 AM

lordcloud

01-13-09, 09:34 AM

Found a 65 incher that the owners have had for two years. No burn in but the contrast has been run at max the entire time. I'm picking it up on Wednesday.

LastButNotLeast

01-13-09, 10:01 AM

I must be blind. Where is this info on Owen's shimming? People are talking about pictures and following directions, but I'm not seeing what exactly you guys are referencing.

And Mr. Bob, I reduced the overscan the same month I bought my set. I've had reduced overscan for a little over 2 years. But my contrast ratio has only been at 20. Do you still think it's too long to go back to default settings?

The shimming mod reduces overscan. If you've already reduced the overscan, then you're already there and you'd have to undo what you've done and redo it after the shimming to get to the same place.
I thought the shimming would get overscan to zero, but I was informed that the technical limit of most CRT's is probably about 3%, which is where I am now. If you're close to that, you should probably just stay there.

LastButNotLeast

01-13-09, 10:05 AM

P.S> Look at me guys. Remember when I couldn't get into the SM. Now I can give a little advice now and then. Not claiming Michael, Lee, or Mr. Bob status but still.

I'm flattered, but let's leave Lee and Bob in their own category - they're the real "authorities." But thanks for the compliment.
"See one, do one, teach one."
Keep chiming in. It's great to be able to help others (even if you get the slight correction every once in a while :)).

LastButNotLeast

01-13-09, 10:07 AM

Found a 65 incher that the owners have had for two years. No burn in but the contrast has been run at max the entire time. I'm picking it up on Wednesday.

Pick it up carefully - that sucker's HEAVY. :D
Great find. Enjoy it and keep us posted.
Pictures would be nice, too, you know. ;)

Paul33993

01-13-09, 03:18 PM

The shimming mod reduces overscan. If you've already reduced the overscan, then you're already there and you'd have to undo what you've done and redo it after the shimming to get to the same place.
I thought the shimming would get overscan to zero, but I was informed that the technical limit of most CRT's is probably about 3%, which is where I am now. If you're close to that, you should probably just stay there.

Oh. Thanks for the info. That's around where I'm at. So I guess I'll just leave well enough alone.

Mustang68

01-13-09, 11:03 PM

how can i enter in service mode?

thanks a lot

It sounds like your at the beginning of a very long road. That said it is a lot of fun but each one us has had that "OH NO:eek::eek: moment more than once. DIY CRT RP is not for the faint at heart. If I was you I would contact MR. Bob and inquire into the nominal fee for a phone consult. Its the quickest way to get grayscale close. Then you can DIY the Decoder colors if you want and other values. Grayscale is hard to eyeball but Bob did very well in instructing me on it after I messed mine up.

I really think once you get that grayscale down you can easily start reading the post and do some stuff on your own. Anyway thats just my two cents worth.

Mr Bob

01-14-09, 01:17 PM

I must be blind. Where is this info on Owen's shimming? People are talking about pictures and following directions, but I'm not seeing what exactly you guys are referencing.

No idea where data on doing this shimming mod is. I did it completely from scratch, by the "seat of my pants" method. Which is how I have come up with most of the calibration skills I have honed in the past 20 years, esp. those involving the precision in convergence I come up with on triple-guns, as there are NO tutorials on stuff like that, that I know of. I trained with Ampro back in the day, and Runco, and directly from Jim Doolittle in one of his post-ISF classes, where they do know their stuff and could help me in lots of very general ways about ceiling pjs, but the different conv sys's in the CRT RPTV realm involved stuff you absolutely could not learn from any service manual and they have NEVER held classes on them...

And Mr. Bob, I reduced the overscan the same month I bought my set. I've had reduced overscan for a little over 2 years. But my contrast ratio has only been at 20. Do you still think it's too long to go back to default settings?

CR is huge on CRTs, 50,000:1 minimum, I think you are talking about your contrast LEVEL, rather than your contrast ratio.

If set at 20 all this time, I think you could get away with it.

To find out you'd have to do it, run an all white screen up there, and see if the edges are brighter than the middle.

If not, you're home free! If so, you gotta take it back to where it was before if you don't want to see those bright edges every time a fade to white happens.

Alternatively, you could remove your screen and look into each of the lenses with an all white screen up there, and see if you see any edge of pic screenburn that would indicate that you should not do it. There will already be a 16x9 footprint on your 4x3 screens - they never made a 16x9 CRT for this purpose, triple-gun - so that will be there. See if there's a noticeable difference out at the edges in response to the sm only o'scan redux you did previously. It would be a "rim" of brighter content, a "border" that is brighter than the middle section.

If not, chances are you're still OK and can do it. But you'll only know for sure you can AFTERwards, if your o'scan has already been reduced in the past, via sm only.

If you're already at 3%, doing the shimming mod is not going to essentially change that, tho you might be able to achieve 2% if your guns are aimed correctly for that, and the video material delivered from your source goes out that far to the edges. And yes, as Michael says, you will have to restore your pic out to where it was before, to get back that increased CRT face area, which gets reduced by the sm only method.

It WILL give you higher precision in your pic - higher res also - from the increased pixel density you have now, combined with the increased CRT face area that becomes exposed. This will allow you to sit closer to your set, delivering a bigger picture to be watching, at the same 3% o'scan as you're at now.

On mine it increased my pic size by 20%, from sitting 10' back to sitting 8' back from the same screen as before. I'm a glutton, I want the biggest pic I can possibly get. You may not be there, in which case stay put with what you have.

I'll never be able to sit my width with this set, like Cliff does with his twin G90 doublestack, but viewing your content at 8' back from a 73" set, eyes to screen, is still an AMAZING experience...

:cool:

b

Paul33993

01-14-09, 02:47 PM

Mr Bob

01-14-09, 02:52 PM

Found a 65 incher that the owners have had for two years. No burn in but the contrast has been run at max the entire time. I'm picking it up on Wednesday.

Then it comes down to hours/day of on time. Has it been used 16 hours a day as the household baby-sitter? I'd pass, unless you eventually want to get it regunned.

If it's been normally used, at just a few hours a day, then I'd go for it. Worst case scenario is that it has advanced age because of the Torch Mode, but can still look great for a few more years.

If it has no screenburn, then at least SOMEBODY there knew what they were doing!

b

lordcloud

01-14-09, 04:22 PM

Then it comes down to hours/day of on time. Has it been used 16 hours a day as the household baby-sitter? I'd pass, unless you eventually want to get it regunned.

If it's been normally used, at just a few hours a day, then I'd go for it. Worst case scenario is that it has advanced age because of the Torch Mode, but can still look great for a few more years.

If it has no screenburn, then at least SOMEBODY there knew what they were doing!

b

I've been wondering about the contrast at 100%, but there is no screenburn at all. I put up a white field and saw nothing.

fiddlesticks

01-14-09, 04:42 PM

Thanks for the info, Mr. Bob. I guess there still are advantages to doing it.

But I'm not going to be a pioneer on this. I'll monitor this thread and if somebody posts pictures and directions of everything they've done, I'll have a choice to make.:)

Same here...are there some more detailed descriptions of this? Does it simply entail unbolting the entire gun chasis and putting some extra washers or spacers on and bolting it back down? I'm up for that if so. I assume you need to realign the picture to the screen afterwards by measuring it, is this also possible in the service menu?

My overscan IIRC was about 4% on the top and bottom and 6% on the sides, so I'm really itching to reduce that at some point.

Mr Bob

01-14-09, 04:47 PM

Same here...are there some more detailed descriptions of this? Does it simply entail unbolting the entire gun chasis and putting some extra washers or spacers on and bolting it back down? I'm up for that if so. I assume you need to realign the picture to the screen afterwards by measuring it, is this also possible in the service menu?

My overscan IIRC was about 4% on the top and bottom and 6% on the sides, so I'm really itching to reduce that at some point.

I have put copious info on the threads here about the CRT array shimming mod, feel free to search them out, you may find enough to get you thru. If you want personal assistance on the phone to guaranty your success on this, I am available for that.

b

Mr Bob

01-14-09, 04:47 PM

I've been wondering about the contrast at 100%, but there is no screenburn at all. I put up a white field and saw nothing.

Awesome! Chances are you're in clover, then!

b

Mr Bob

01-14-09, 04:52 PM

Mustang68

01-14-09, 11:33 PM

Those who want to really find out what CRT is capable of, be sure to peruse the Screenshot War thread. Not all the shots are of CRT, some are digital fixed pixel overhead pj, but they ID them as such in either case.

With the well set up CRT triple-guns you can't tell the difference! They are every bit as crisp and sure as the fixed pixel image structures, on the same size screens.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=15555607#post15555607

b

I guess I dont understand the shimming benefits. I have about 4% all around. I already sit about 8 feet away with a great pic. Will this make a tighter looking pic anyway? Guess I cant get a mental pic of what it will do.

Mr Bob

01-15-09, 01:03 AM

I guess I dont understand the shimming benefits. I have about 4% all around. I already sit about 8 feet away with a great pic. Will this make a tighter looking pic anyway? Guess I cant get a mental pic of what it will do.

See post 2940 at the tail end of the previous page, here. All I can tellya.

Come on over and have a looksee, if you'd like. But it's pretty hard to get you a before vs. after experience of this one without doing it yourself -

b

lordcloud

01-15-09, 07:18 PM

Mustang68

01-15-09, 07:22 PM

fiddlesticks

01-15-09, 08:59 PM

I have put copious info on the threads here about the CRT array shimming mod, feel free to search them out, you may find enough to get you thru. If you want personal assistance on the phone to guaranty your success on this, I am available for that.

b

I'll keep searching then I guess. Thanks for the help

LastButNotLeast

01-15-09, 11:03 PM

Don't know anything about the seller, but has good ratings. Offering an i1 for < $100.

http://www.google.com/products/catalog?q=%22eye+one%22&oe=UTF-8&cid=15822205178244117921#ps-sellers

TheCleaner

01-16-09, 12:36 AM

baron4406

01-16-09, 04:09 AM

Hi just registered here looking for some help. About a month ago I noticed my Hitachi 51F510 started looking green, not real green just when the screen shows a dark scene with alot of shadows, the shadows are green. Tried all sorts of adjustments to no avail. For the most part the TV still looks great, if you are watching a football game or some show that doesn't show alot of shadows the HD looks great. I hate to throw it out but getting it fixed might not be worth it. BTW I'm a mechanic by trade and have an associates in Electronics so I could probably repair it myself if I knew what was wrong with it. Thanks!

Paul33993

01-16-09, 09:37 AM

OK, maybe I just need to pay Mr. Bob for phone support because even being a technical guy I am so lost. I've looked through this thread like crazy but don't even understand the basics (like overscan, % talk, sm, shim, sharpie use, making some kind of screen cover, etc.)...so I'll just post basic user questions and see if I can get answers or at least a $$/hr rate for support...lol.

- I have the 51"
- I have it hooked up via HDMI to a Cox HD digital cable box

Questions:

1. I get the HDMI problems and know the fix...but it happens rarely so I don't want to screw around in the service menu without needing to....do I really need to do this fix?

2. Scrolling tickers at the bottom of say CNN look like crap (poor scrolling, fuzzy text)...both on the regular channel and the HD channel...why? can it be fixed?

3. The screen tends to look "grainy" overall...not very sharp. Watching a DVD is better, but not by much. Best I can say is there are "artifacts" around text and around distinct facial features...it's not horrible but it is apparent. Any way to fix this?

4. on 4:3 expanded mode it cuts off the bottom of the screen...I figure this is "by design" but the biggest frustration is with the "on screen Cox guide". If I pull up the channel guide on a regular channel the text is huge and grainy and the bottom is cut off slightly...if I open it while watching an HD channel the text is much crisper but still a little fuzzy.

Am I complaining about things I can't change? Is this the result of being stuck between the old analog technology and the new digital stuff? Would I still have all of these problems on a new LCD?

I have looked over other people's video settings here (contrast/brightness/etc.) and that definitely helped make the non-HD channels livable but still the problems above persist.

Help? :)

This thread was pretty much started to be a summary of all things learned in previous threads (or at least an attempt.) And discussion and some additional discoveries have added the additional 50 pages.

But when I purchased over 2 years ago, there were a number of threads that I read through. And it seemed like it was a couple hundred pages worth. So, you're basically walking in on the conversation to some degree.

I know I actually took notes (that I still have) as I read through everything. I can't even imagine what another 2 years worth of posts is like.

Angelo M

01-16-09, 11:07 AM

Mr Bob

01-16-09, 11:52 AM

check this out:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1037039

look at post #24

Many sets have slanted arrays, like my Mit does. For that I used rubber doorstop wedges, placed at just the right amount of penetration and completely adjustable.

To secure everything I had to take the screws/bolts the unit came with out to my local hardware store and get the same thread and width but in an elongated version. I had to add at least 2" to the original length on my replacement bolts, 5" total length would prolly be just fine in all apps.

HD DVE's Overscan pattern is excellent for centering your image and making sure it's straight, once you've done the op. Be sure it's centered properly BEFORE you do that app, too!

I was able to wind up with just under 3% overscan all around, on that pattern. This is markedly better than the 4-4.5% we're limited to using the sm only method.

b

Mr Bob

01-16-09, 11:59 AM

Ok, so I loaded the 65 into the U-Haul last night, everything's ok. Got to a stop light that was on an incline and the tv broke free and smashed into the door! WHen we moved from the light and came to a stop........and yes, the tv slammed into the front of the truck. My hear sank, my stomach plummeted and yes, I felt like crying. So I get home, separate the top and bottom, take it up to my apt and it seems to work just fine. I'm hoping everything is ok.

I once had a repair job to do on a Pioneer Elite back before HD, and found that all 4 of the wheels were gone. All that was there were the ragged holes they had made in the floor of the unit when the unit had obviously been dropped!

Worked fine, tho. The repair I had been called out for was for something totally unrelated.

Thank God for solid state, eh? At least on MOST of the set...

b

Mr Bob

01-16-09, 12:15 PM

OK, maybe I just need to pay Mr. Bob for phone support because even being a technical guy I am so lost. I've looked through this thread like crazy but don't even understand the basics (like overscan, % talk, sm, shim, sharpie use, making some kind of screen cover, etc.)...so I'll just post basic user questions and see if I can get answers or at least a $$/hr rate for support...lol.

- I have the 51"
- I have it hooked up via HDMI to a Cox HD digital cable box

Questions:

1. I get the HDMI problems and know the fix...but it happens rarely so I don't want to screw around in the service menu without needing to....do I really need to do this fix?

2. Scrolling tickers at the bottom of say CNN look like crap (poor scrolling, fuzzy text)...both on the regular channel and the HD channel...why? can it be fixed?

3. The screen tends to look "grainy" overall...not very sharp. Watching a DVD is better, but not by much. Best I can say is there are "artifacts" around text and around distinct facial features...it's not horrible but it is apparent. Any way to fix this?

4. on 4:3 expanded mode it cuts off the bottom of the screen...I figure this is "by design" but the biggest frustration is with the "on screen Cox guide". If I pull up the channel guide on a regular channel the text is huge and grainy and the bottom is cut off slightly...if I open it while watching an HD channel the text is much crisper but still a little fuzzy.

Am I complaining about things I can't change? Is this the result of being stuck between the old analog technology and the new digital stuff? Would I still have all of these problems on a new LCD?

I have looked over other people's video settings here (contrast/brightness/etc.) and that definitely helped make the non-HD channels livable but still the problems above persist.

Help? :)

Upon arriving at an owner's home, I usually find that the focus is out on 2 of the 3 guns at the lenses, the grayscale is very blue-white, the overscan is very prevalent, when years old the grayscale often has greenishness in the blacks, and the convergence has drifted off substantially, and that's usually in addition to how far off it gets after the first 100 hours - which I usually call the "drift period".

Yes, all these things can be remedied via calibration, allowing you to keep one of the finest HD modalities ever made - the CRT triple-gun system.

Only the finest and most expensive fixed pixels of today can match the performance of a fully cleaned and calibrated CRT triple-gun. And to get them in the SIZES of readily available triple-guns increases those fixed pixel costs even more.

You're definitely money ahead to get yours tricked out rather than buying new. It's only at cruising age at this point in its lifespan. You're sitting on a goldmine, there -

b

Paul33993

01-16-09, 01:10 PM

check this out:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1037039

look at post #24

Thanks... I think.:D They looks deceptively simple. Simple enough I might not be able to resist.

Mr Bob

01-16-09, 01:14 PM

Thanks... I think.:D They looks deceptively simple. Simple enough I might not be able to resist.

Just be sure you're adept at and able to redo your optical focusing, geometry and convergence, because all of this will go imprecise and sloppy as soon as you change the throw distance, which is exactly what the shimming process does.

b

TheCleaner

01-16-09, 02:05 PM

Upon arriving at an owner's home, I usually find that the focus is out on 2 of the 3 guns at the lenses, the grayscale is very blue-white, the overscan is very prevalent, when years old the grayscale often has greenishness in the blacks, and the convergence has drifted off substantially, and that's usually in addition to how far off it gets after the first 100 hours - which I usually call the "drift period".

Yes, all these things can be remedied via calibration, allowing you to keep one of the finest HD modalities ever made - the CRT triple-gun system.

Only the finest and most expensive fixed pixels of today can match the performance of a fully cleaned and calibrated CRT triple-gun. And to get them in the SIZES of readily available triple-guns increases those fixed pixel costs even more.

You're definitely money ahead to get yours tricked out rather than buying new. It's only at cruising age at this point in its lifespan. You're sitting on a goldmine, there -

b

OK, so I read your whole website...great info....but how much will it cost me to have you do phone or email support?

It appears that you are very well versed in this set...do you have a "do this first" kit that I could buy and do myself that would have service menu tweaks, etc?

I don't really feel comfortable opening the TV physically...

scifigeek

01-16-09, 02:34 PM

hello, 51f59a owner here, i did the shim mod for my three guns last night. i'm not sure how the 'c' plate access is for the larger sets, but on mine, i just used a clamp to loosen the 3 side screws away from the guns (not room for my tools to loosen from the heads), then removed the speakers, and was able to remove the three side screws then by hand (pre loosened). then cut a 2'' thick wood block into 4 pieces and slid them under the 'c' plate corners. that was pleanty of height for my tv, just a little too much actually. the image almost fills the entire screen, maybe 1/8" space gap, so i'm leaving it 'as is'. i fixed the corner geometry for the most part (still will do some work on it tonight), and get a little color bleed on the edges. if this becomes too bothersome, a little black tape will fix it. but wow, it does make a big difference on my image. before, it was quite blurry on the sides of my screen, now fairly consistant with a clear image throughout.

jwebb1970

01-16-09, 04:05 PM

Mustang68

01-16-09, 11:36 PM

OK, maybe I just need to pay Mr. Bob for phone support because even being a technical guy I am so lost. I've looked through this thread like crazy but don't even understand the basics (like overscan, % talk, sm, shim, sharpie use, making some kind of screen cover, etc.)...so I'll just post basic user questions and see if I can get answers or at least a $$/hr rate for support...lol.

- I have the 51"
- I have it hooked up via HDMI to a Cox HD digital cable box

Questions:

1. I get the HDMI problems and know the fix...but it happens rarely so I don't want to screw around in the service menu without needing to....do I really need to do this fix?

2. Scrolling tickers at the bottom of say CNN look like crap (poor scrolling, fuzzy text)...both on the regular channel and the HD channel...why? can it be fixed?

3. The screen tends to look "grainy" overall...not very sharp. Watching a DVD is better, but not by much. Best I can say is there are "artifacts" around text and around distinct facial features...it's not horrible but it is apparent. Any way to fix this?

4. on 4:3 expanded mode it cuts off the bottom of the screen...I figure this is "by design" but the biggest frustration is with the "on screen Cox guide". If I pull up the channel guide on a regular channel the text is huge and grainy and the bottom is cut off slightly...if I open it while watching an HD channel the text is much crisper but still a little fuzzy.

Am I complaining about things I can't change? Is this the result of being stuck between the old analog technology and the new digital stuff? Would I still have all of these problems on a new LCD?

I have looked over other people's video settings here (contrast/brightness/etc.) and that definitely helped make the non-HD channels livable but still the problems above persist.

Help? :)

1. yes you do need the fix. at some point almost everyone who had the issue would experience the set turning on and off on its own and freakin out with the screen going black or purple, green..whatever. I'm talking about the fix not the shift. Thats different.They both happen but the shifting is a hardware issue as well as software. Mine was shifting like crazy and turning off. I did the fix and the shifting died down but didn't stop. The other stuff went away.Plus its just too easy to do.

2.??

3. Most start that way. YOu willl need to read over the thread and try different settings. YTDL, SRTGA, Sharp HDTV all have impacts on that over grainy noise look.

This set has the ability to easily out do most flat panel sets. It does take a little work. Mostly because they are not set up well OOB.

TheCleaner

01-17-09, 12:10 AM

OK, I've gone (again) through this thread...found Lee's DIY rtf doc, and found a few other service menu settings that I followed from others here. The ONLY thing different on mine is I move the sharpness up trying to alleviate my issue.

After that, HD channels look very good but still slightly "grainy"...probably just stuck with that though...SD channels look grainier but better than before.

The obviousness though can really be seen when pulling up the Cox on-screen guide on an SD channel versus HD channel. My in-laws DirectTV on-screen menu is crystal clear...mine looks like crap on SD, and semi-crap on HD. Maybe it is because 4:3 channels I watch in 4:3 expanded...but man it just is frustrating.

See the pics below for what I'm talking about...I'm hoping someone here has an idea on how to resolve this...(besides getting DirectTV lol)...

HD version:
http://i44.tinypic.com/50pson.jpg

Non-HD version (note the grainy effects between the fingers and the shirt:
http://i41.tinypic.com/sxp2cg.jpg

HD version with text:
http://i43.tinypic.com/vg0x0l.jpg

Non-HD version with text (note the difference in the text "crispness":
http://i42.tinypic.com/206bic0.jpg

Am I just out of luck until every channel becomes HD? Ticker text (say on CNBC looks meh in HD and almost unbearable in SD). I did notice in a few other threads that Cox could be the culprit in the end, and DVD's do look great but I watch normal TV most of the time. Will the digital transition day help at all?

LastButNotLeast

01-17-09, 09:58 AM

I did notice in a few other threads that Cox could be the culprit in the end, and DVD's do look great but I watch normal TV most of the time. Will the digital transition day help at all?[/B]

If DVD's look great, then it's not the set.
High Def (Red or Blu) should look fabulous, as should your HD cable.
Does the set say it's getting a 1080i signal?
Have you tried OTA (a regular [rabbit ears] antenna)? Depending on where you live, you'll get a few digital channels that should look good (again, check the info for input resolution).
Might be the cable. Does the box have component outs?
Turning sharpness up will make the graininess worse.
Keep playing with it and keep us posted.
Of course, popping off the screen and cleaning the mirror and lenses will help everything, but the goal now is to get your TV channels to look as good as your DVD's, which should not be hard.

Mustang68

01-17-09, 10:59 AM

If DVD's look great, then it's not the set.
High Def (Red or Blu) should look fabulous, as should your HD cable.
Does the set say it's getting a 1080i signal?
Have you tried OTA (a regular [rabbit ears] antenna)? Depending on where you live, you'll get a few digital channels that should look good (again, check the info for input resolution).
Might be the cable. Does the box have component outs?
Turning sharpness up will make the graininess worse.
Keep playing with it and keep us posted.
Of course, popping off the screen and cleaning the mirror and lenses will help everything, but the goal now is to get your TV channels to look as good as your DVD's, which should not be hard.

Your set right now reminds me of mine at the beginning, before tweaking on it. I can tell you for a fact that it looks like you have dialed in way to much sharpness. This was a hard one for me as well. I wanted that super sharp edged look that I thought HD should bring. Well this set will do it but it takes time to adjust things.

First my in-laws have COX and it does not look as good to me as SAT or TIME Warner does. That may just be this area.

Relying on external feeds to determine your sets pic will drive you crazy. Put in a blu-ray or HD DVD and try and adjust from that. External channels have all kinds of compression rates and these will dramatically effect how the feed looks. If you dont have DVE or AVIA get them. It will help a lot, especially for the beginner.

Here are some SM settings I use. May not work for yours but they can be a test guide. Remember to write down all settings before starting.

Sharp SDTV-1E
Sharp HDTV-!C
CDE-00
SRTGA-05
STATG1-06
STATG2-00
YOUTG-00
YDTL-08

I'm not going into color decoding or grayscale because that seems to far down the road for you yet. Mine works for me because I have tweaked it to where I like it. I still have changes to make and equipment to buy. You will find YTDL to have a strong effect on your sharpness. Before beginning though turn down your User menu sharpness to at least 50. I would turn it down to 30 before beginning. Turn off Edge Enhancement and BLk enh...all those extras. Start in the standard mode. MED/High can be later projects.

Will be hard at first but tinker with what works. You can turn on and off EE if you want once you get it close to a pic you like to see what works. Personally pretty much everyone leaves it off as unnecessary once the set gets dialed in. If you dont have Blu or HD DVD use a good SD DVD. See if its the COX signal.

BTW..getting professional help from Mr. Bob is also a good, less learning curve option.

Mr Bob

01-17-09, 03:52 PM

Mr Bob

01-17-09, 03:55 PM

Upon initial inspection, it looked like the shim mod on an F59 would be a major PITA.

Now, it seems others are doing it w/ relative ease. Maybe time to rethink the job....

I do have the original screen jig, so getting it back to "factory" is easy enough. My set is around 4% all around now, so by Bob's estimation, I could pick up another 1% less o'scan. Might just be worth the trouble.

Bob - I realize shimming also leads to geo/conv stuff to be fixed. What I wonder is, when the set is at it's factory oscan & you reduce it via shimming the CRT array, do you eliminate the "errors" that can pop up when reducing via SM or via the H/V size pots (which is how I did it)? Errors meaning the edge curling or fraying one can see when the H/V size has been reduced beyond the physical limits of the CRTs? Or is the image just that much "smaller" & one only needs to correct the geo where needed?

All o'scan redux involves pic correction when finished. Curling and angling of the edges and separations of the colors will still happen, tho not nearly as much. Corrections DO have to be made, yes, but not as much as with sm only redux.

You'll get more than just a diff of 1% o'scan. You'll get more of your CRT faces exposed to the view screen. That right there is worth its weight in gold. PLUS higher pixel density -

b

estigmatico

01-17-09, 04:27 PM

hi good afternoon, haw can i enter in to service mode for a 57f59a hitachi tv, i try (hold menu on tv, press on remote control menu+8+select) but i can´t....some one can help me....

thanks a lot....

Mr Bob

01-17-09, 04:35 PM

OK, so I read your whole website...great info....but how much will it cost me to have you do phone or email support?

Thanks for asking. I think you'd best contact me directly for such info. Rest assured it's very affordable, just ask Mustang68.

I don't want to run afoul of the powers that be on this site, for discussing $ related to my services. I think you guys can repeat here what you get from me directly, can't see any harm in that, but quoting prices myself kinda gets me into gray areas I don't want to take any chances with. Contact me directly for details, not by pm please.

It appears that you are very well versed in this set...do you have a "do this first" kit that I could buy and do myself that would have service menu tweaks, etc?

I don't really feel comfortable opening the TV physically...

No, I don't have a ready made kit for you. But you are free to record any phone conversation we have for future reference, as long as you have obtained my permission first and I am suitably informed.

b

Mustang68

01-17-09, 05:10 PM

OK now you guys got me thinking about doing the shimming. Here is a dumb question. You shim it up. The pictures obviously gets bigger/closer on the screen thereby reducing the edges and eliminating some picture. You then do overscan reduction to bring the whole pic back in and hopefully achieve 3%. This allows a denser pic and creates a sharper image??

Do you need a jig to get it back or will DVE overscan test grids get you there? Someone said they had to take out the speakers?? I have never heard that before. So far I haven't heard the laymans terms for what it does. Is the pic sharper? More focused and readily apparent?

Mr Bob

01-17-09, 05:13 PM

OK now you guys got me thinking about doing the shimming. Here is a dumb question. You shim it up. The pictures obviously gets bigger/closer on the screen thereby reducing the edges and eliminating some picture. You then do overscan reduction to bring the whole pic back in and hopefully achieve 3%. This allows a denser pic and creates a sharper image??

Opposite. The shimmed pic is smaller on the screen, achieving the desired o'scan redux.

Do you need a jig to get it back or will DVE overscan test grids get you there? Someone said they had to take out the speakers?? I have never heard that before. So far I haven't heard the laymans terms for what it does. Is the pic sharper? More focused and readily apparent?

Best way is with HD DVE, on either HD disc platform.

Your pic gets denser. This increases your resolution, increasing the "definition" in your high definition.

b

Mustang68

01-17-09, 05:26 PM

Opposite. The shimmed pic is smaller on the screen, achieving the desired o'scan redux.

Best way is with HD DVE, on either HD disc platform.

Your pic gets denser. This increases your resolution, increasing the "definition" in your high definition.

b

Thanks! I get it now. Sometimes I cant wrap my mental picture around something. So to get the pic back centered all you do is the horizontal/vertical SM adjustments, or is there more to it??? Man the light is on after your last explanation. How can it not make a better pic. With this mod I bet the sets can take on any FP. Mr. Bob I will email you. I have 20 minutes left on last consult and would like to add a little more so I can do this mod. Would like to do it tomorrow if possible. I think I get it but a little safety cushion is nice to have.

Mr Bob

01-17-09, 05:41 PM

Thanks! I get it now. Sometimes I cant wrap my mental picture around something. So to get the pic back centered all you do is the horizontal/vertical SM adjustments, or is there more to it??? Man the light is on after your last explanation. How can it not make a better pic. With this mod I bet the sets can take on any FP. Mr. Bob I will email you. I have 20 minutes left on last consult and would like to add a little more so I can do this mod. Would like to do it tomorrow if possible. I think I get it but a little safety cushion is nice to have.

You're on, pardner! Yup, just the sm adj's. No moving of the CRTs themselves, at all, aside from the shimming upwards.

Tomorrow looks fine for the phone appt. Call sometime after 10am, and we'll set it up. Still have my cell #? It's Sunday, I might not be home -

;)

b

PS - these sets can take on FP even without the shimming mod!

:p

Mr Bob

01-17-09, 08:30 PM

Awesome, guys! Well done, let's keep it right on rolling!

:D

Mustang68

01-17-09, 09:30 PM

Popping the champagne!!!! The BIG 100th. This threads still got a lot left too.

LastButNotLeast

01-17-09, 09:54 PM

Popping the champagne!!!! The BIG 100th. This threads still got a lot left too.

Especially after you post the pictures you take of your shimming.
:)
Have fun.

Mustang68

01-17-09, 10:29 PM

You're on, pardner! Yup, just the sm adj's. No moving of the CRTs themselves, at all, aside from the shimming upwards.

Tomorrow looks fine for the phone appt. Call sometime after 10am, and we'll set it up. Still have my cell #? It's Sunday, I might not be home -

;)

b

PS - these sets can take on FP even without the shimming mod!

:p

Check your GMail when you get a chance and the 42.50 was sent.

Paul33993

01-18-09, 07:36 AM

2" is too much for a 51" set. I only use 2.25" - 3 layers of 1x2/corner - and I have a 73" set.

"almost fills the screen" is not an option. IMHO, anyway. Black tape would not be, either.

Glad your pic is improved, tho.

b

Wouldn't he just work with the over/under scan dials to fill the picture after this? That link of Owen's shimming job is a 51-inch Hitachi and he states he's using 70mm (2.75 inches).

Angelo M

01-18-09, 08:26 AM

Mustang68

01-18-09, 09:30 AM

baron4406

01-18-09, 10:40 AM

can anyone help me here? Seems like my problem was ignored.

BFJ 96

01-18-09, 10:57 AM

Mustang68

01-18-09, 01:21 PM

Hey baron, I quoted your problem again to see if maybe you can get that help your looking for

Grayscale?? Sounds like your grayscale is off with to much green. Thats a tricky adjustment by eye if this is the case. Giving you my settings would not help at all. I guess we need to start with how well you know the Service Menu?

Has anyone else any other ideas??

Mr Bob

01-18-09, 03:34 PM

Grayscale?? Sounds like your grayscale is off with to much green. Thats a tricky adjustment by eye if this is the case. Giving you my settings would not help at all. I guess we need to start with how well you know the Service Menu?

Has anyone else any other ideas??

Yeah, it's the grayscale, the part that affects the darks, which would either be the Screen tripots or the Cutoffs in sm. Trimpots if it's universal on all scanrates, cutoffs if one or the other scanrate is OK but the other is off.

Didn't you have the same thing, Mustang, before you and I worked it out on the phone?

b

LastButNotLeast

01-18-09, 04:49 PM

Ok, I understand what how the shimming will reduce your overscan. I understand that there probably is an ideal thickness for the shim to raise the crt assembly.

Now with the hitachi, it must overscan enough to hit the magic focus sensors around the screen, right? Because if not would't you will loose your magic focus?

And since you raise your crt to reduce your overscan you have to forget about using a grid overlay or service manual specs for grid measurements for convergence, because if you do this you will be back to a 5% overscan, right?

I'm just trying to sort this all out before I really get the green light in my head to do a shim mod.

Losing Magic Focus is no loss. Anyone who's "tweaked" shouldn't use it anyway. It's actually been suggested to remove or cover the sensors because they offer a reflective surface within the cavity of the set.

Grids are convenient, but I found string and tape much easier (sort of like laying a tile floor). I thought the lines on the grid were too wide to make the "precise" adjustments I was trying to make. I actually used PhotoShop to make a new grid, but never bothered printing it.

Go for it, Mustang.

Mustang68

01-18-09, 05:09 PM

Yeah, it's the grayscale, the part that affects the darks, which would either be the Screen tripots or the Cutoffs in sm. Trimpots if it's universal on all scanrates, cutoffs if one or the other scanrate is OK but the other is off.

Didn't you have the same thing, Mustang, before you and I worked it out on the phone?

b

Yes I did. A self inflicted wound in my case though. I know my grayscale could be closer?? but what we did over the phone holds up very well under a B&W pic. If theres a problem I have yet to find it.

Mr Bob

01-18-09, 05:17 PM

Ok, I understand what how the shimming will reduce your overscan. I understand that there probably is an ideal thickness for the shim to raise the crt assembly.

Correct. If you want to extrapolate from my 73", I ultimately have used 2.25" and am in heaven, at just under 3% o'scan. Extrapolate from there or DIY and let us know the ideal thickness for your set and its size.

Whether you can do it tho...

Depends on whether your o'scan has already been reduced by sm only method, and then run for years that way. In which case no you can't do it. If it's never been reduced, then yes you can.

Now with the hitachi, it must overscan enough to hit the magic focus sensors around the screen, right? Because if not would't you will loose your magic focus?

If you really want to use MF, yes that's a concern. I would dispense with MF tho, if it were my unit.

And since you raise your crt to reduce your overscan you have to forget about using a grid overlay or service manual specs for grid measurements for convergence, because if you do this you will be back to a 5% overscan, right?

I'm just trying to sort this all out before I really get the green light in my head to do a shim mod.

Right.

Mustang68

01-18-09, 05:25 PM

OK..heres an update. Went inside to see what the shimming would take. In the 51F case there are 2 screws in the front nearest the screen. 2 on each side where it mounts to the frame plus 2 more to get that board out and up. That should have been it based on Post#24 pic. Instead mine has 3 more on the sides underneath the assembly. You have to take the speakers out to reach them. Even then I couldn't get to the top ones because of clearance. I figure with time I could get them but they were not hand tight only.

I called Mr. Bob for my consult. After speaking we decided to do the Cantilever Technique first before I tried shimming. I would have to focus everything anyway after the shim job and this would see where I was at to begin with. Plus I needed to learn it. Well the good news is I have perfect focus in the center out on all three colors. The bad news is I have a very bad red defocus on the left side that Mr. Bob called s-pluge. ( I cant even pronounce it. I think its a deadly disease) I even saw this on b/G but not as bad.

At this point I need to decide if I need to fix the s-pluge problem or if it doesn't effect my pic enough to care. I really need to know what others think on that one. The defocus starts about 3 grid lines out from the left edge and gets worse going toward the edge. I really haven't seen it in pics. Just on convergence grids. will shimming increase this effect or not?

I already have my shims cut. I guess with Circuit City announcing its liquidating its inventory and closing all stores I can pick up a cheap 2nd set for the bedroom. That way I will have time to learn how to do all the stuff after the shim.

The shim job itself looks pretty easy. Now with some knowledge on focus I think with Mr.Bob's help I can overcome the focus/convergence/geo work afterwards.

So as soon as I figure out what to do on the red focus issue I will proceed. Any help is appreciated.

Want to thank Mr. Bob very much for his patience with a novice. Guys got a lot of knowledge rolling around up there.

lordcloud

01-18-09, 06:30 PM

Pics fellas! I need pic of the shim mod. I just got my 65 incher and I want to do it, but I want some pics!

Paul33993

01-18-09, 06:37 PM

Mustang68

01-18-09, 07:14 PM

Lordcloud go to

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1037039

then post #24. Its there to see. The only thing is that his assembly does not have the 3 screws that are on both sides. I'm thinking of opening mine back up after the family goes asleep and going ahead with the mod. Then get with Mr Bob for the other stuff. Right now the red focus issue bothers me but it will be there regardless if I do this mod or not. If I do that I will take pics of each area and step.

P.S> I was thinking of a flat panel 720P for the bedroom. Wife doesnt know the diff from good Hi-Def or not and it would be a 2nd TV.

Those screws cant be reached easily from the top either. the very top one is very,very hard to reach and I have not figured how I am going to get it yet.

lordcloud

01-18-09, 08:36 PM

Mustang68

01-18-09, 08:53 PM

I saw that one, but our set is built differently than his as far as I can tell. Owen's set looked like there was just the screws on the side to take off and then he could raise the plate.

Exactly. I think a small hand wrench is the way to go if I can slip it over the head of the screw. I'm just hoping that the set will really show a significant improvement from this. I'm really apprehensive on the work after the shim, which is technically easy. I'm assuming the adjustments for focus are a simple try and retry process. I have no idea what to expect from convergence. as long as its just horizontal i'm OK..vertical in DCAM..not OK.

Geo I assume is adjusting the Hor/Vert in the SM. At this point I'm guessing though.

LastButNotLeast

01-18-09, 10:36 PM

IThe bad news is I have a very bad red defocus on the left side that Mr. Bob called s-pluge. ( I cant even pronounce it. I think its a deadly disease) I even saw this on b/G but not as bad.

You haven't been paying attention!
http://www.keohi.com/keohihdtv/experttips/mrbob/scheimpfluge.html
I've never tried to pronounce it; it's hard enough to spell.
You need to loosen the four screws holding the red lens in place and put washers judiciously under the legs (one, two, or perhaps even three) to get your red even. I never did get the hang of which corner affected which side, so trial and lots of error is the technique. Careful, though; if you drop a washer, you need to pull off the whole lens assembly. It makes more sense after you've done it.
I tried lock washers, hoping to get some spring action for adjustability. Didn't work. My guess is you'll need two thin washers on the right side.
Of course, as always, the Secretary will disavow all knowledge of your activities....

scifigeek

01-19-09, 01:12 AM

the f59 owner that 'joked' of black tape for my shim mod not filling the screen. i ended up finishing my shimming fun. turns out that just four 1'' blocks were needed. 70mm is about 3'', so that goes to show how much the sets can vary, and sometimes a mr. bob is needed if your not willing to put some serious hours in, if something goes wrong. i love the smaller image on the screen, for an example, i have the home beta on my ps3. when home loads, and puts the v1.05 in the upper left screen, i see space before the 'v'. prior, i would be lucky to see the the '1'. now to get a nice clean image i was willing to put in the many hours of tweaking, and worked with the lens wing nuts and the lower focus board. i have read all of the posts on here over the past year, and had hardly any time on this set (sat downstairs unloved). i have somewhere around 2% overscan on the set and am happy on that aspect. now understand that i needed to also fix everything up in dcam, and was willing to spend the hours to get it just right.

now i also want to say that my set will not save these adjustments if i power off! it used to, but now i cant even get the magic focus to work when back on my regular screen. by that, i mean that i hit 'select' when 'start' is highlighted, and it just goes back the my main input screen. and when i screw around with the remote too much i get stuck in a green ajustment screen with whitenoise in the back, that's very loud. hope fully i will figure out what the h*ll is going on...

**also looking back on the other posts**
just wanted to mention that i brought up the three side screws up in my earlier post, because those were the ones that i knew ppl would see and just give up on doing the shim mod. the other screws were very easy to remove, and i actually kept other parts attached. but, back to the three side screws, just get a tool that you can clamp onto the screw and just get them loose. it took a little time maybe 20 min total each side. but, that was just me being careful, and was able to finish the job by doing the last part by removing the screws by hand.