Well I think the last arguments against shimming have died based on Michaels set. Great work and documentation.

Congrats Michael!!! That oversacan looks KA!!!!

Now you got me pumped up to do my shimming next week!!! Superb job all the way around.:eek:

When your set it ready for prime time, which I'm sure it'll probably be by tomorrow, you can post some Colleen's shots in the Reference Material thread ... I'll be looking forward to it.:rolleyes:

After pulling up the same screen on my set we have exactly the same amount of pic all the way around. I think this may be the sets limit. Even the issue with the top/bottom is the same.

After pulling up the same screen on my set we have exactly the same amount of pic all the way around. I think this may be the sets limit. Even the issue with the top/bottom is the same.

Mustang and Michael... what was your final distance, or shall we say shim/sticks thickness?

Whew...what a dif that calibration made Bob. I can only imagine the shock of the sets owner!!!

Yeah, he was grinnin' pretty hard afterwards -


:D

b

Yeah, he was grinnin' pretty hard afterwards -


:D

b

Me, too, you're just not here to see it.
Thanks, again.

Mustang and Michael... what was your final distance, or shall we say shim/sticks thickness?

Four paint sticks on each side. With the array on top, I figure the whole thing moved about 1.5 inches (the thickness of the sticks plus the thickness of the cabinet).

Next? Black fabric (since, obviously, painting again won't help), geometry, grayscale, and, finally, screenshots.
As always, my friends, stay tuned.

AND A HUGE "THANKS" TO MR. BOB.
:D
Michael


Thenkew...

:p


You forgot to mention the focussing. All 3 lenses via Cantilever because of the shimming, electrostatic in addition on blue because of the replacement op.

And grayscale on blue, too. You had it looking so good on your grayscale already, you prolly won't need to touch anything else. Just blue trimpot and cutoffs, for blue only. Should restore your former grayscale just fine -

;)

b

Mustang and Michael... what was your final distance, or shall we say shim/sticks thickness?

Mine was 1.25 inches

After pulling up the same screen on my set we have exactly the same amount of pic all the way around. I think this may be the sets limit. Even the issue with the top/bottom is the same.

That may be the set's visible limit, but all sets are going to have some sort of visible limit. How you're GETTING it there is the real question. The shimming op allows for MORE CRT face than factory - the correct amount, actually - being exposed to the viewscreen, no matter how much is showing in the image involved ON that CRT face.

The correction of expanding your image's present amount of picture showing on the CRT face OUT PAST the OOB factory settings is part of it - INCREASING the o'scan at the CRT face itself, then compensating for that by taking it back in with the shimming, arriving back at ideal o'scan - and this of course cannot be done unless your set is fresh and new with no aging footprint. In the end your set may have the picture shown here, yet have far more spaciousness to it after the shimming op.

The sm-only o'scan redux limits it to LESS than factory, showing up at the viewscreen.

MORE IS BETTER. At least in this case...

Quite frankly I was amazed when I checked out Owen's mod to find that they were in many cases indeed WASTING valuable CRT phosphor face! I had just assumed they had done their homework, but no. WASTED. I was very chagrined by this, and have now found it's a widespread phenom, applies to many brands.

How much more design energy - or talent - would it have taken to do the proper amount of homework and at least set up the throw distance CORRECTLY??? Like we do on the ceiling pjs?

Obviously too much...

:p


b

Me, too, you're just not here to see it.
Thanks, again.

You got it -

:cool:

b

Anybody have the link to the post that best describes how to do the string technique for geo.

Also anyone have one for the Schemt*&^%^ whatever its called. That red blur I have on the left side is starting to bother me. Really its not there on content that you can really see. You can on test patterns and pure white screens with letters or something across it.

Never mind I found the She)(*&&^^% thing article. I need to read it a couple more times to get the gist of it. I may still need to call Mr.Bob for a consult when I decide to do it.

See what it looks like on a completely b/w picture.

b

Hey Mr. Bob what is a b/w picture?

If Mr. Bob doesn't mind I will answer for him. B/W is Black and White pic. Put in a B/W movie or just unplug your component cables (dont know which ones, Im a HDMI guy) until you get the right one. Theres a combo that will render B/W only. I use Good Night and Good Luck with Clooney in it to get a good B/W pic up on the screen.

Ok i will unplug one of my component cable in till i get a black and white picture and below is picture of the 3 guns if you might be able to tell what the problem might be that way.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y298/hitesh/03022009048.jpg

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y298/hitesh/03022009049.jpg

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y298/hitesh/03022009050.jpg

If Mr. Bob doesn't mind I will answer for him. B/W is Black and White pic. Put in a B/W movie or just unplug your component cables (dont know which ones, Im a HDMI guy) until you get the right one. Theres a combo that will render B/W only. I use Good Night and Good Luck with Clooney in it to get a good B/W pic up on the screen.


For b/w via component, disco the Pb and Pr, leaving the Y conn'd. Y is empirical b/w, the purest b/w there is.


b

Ok i will unplug one of my component cable in till i get a black and white picture and below is picture of the 3 guns if you might be able to tell what the problem might be that way.



Sorry, a pic of an image on your screen would help us more than pix of your socket boards.


b

Anybody have the link to the post that best describes how to do the string technique for geo.

Just a few pages back. Rectangles (except on the edges) are all the same size. Measurements are in the service manual (or ask here if you need them, just specify size of set) for stock, reduce by 2% or 3% if you're so inclined.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=15902513#post15902513

Dirty/clean Optics and grayscale




http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/9716/22209stevemock710baltim.jpg (http://img19.imageshack.us/my.php?image=22209stevemock710baltimuz7.jpg)
http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/7551/22209stevemock710baltimuz7.jpg



http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/7364/22209stevemock710baltimi.jpg[/URL]
http://img175.imageshack.us/img175/9716/22209stevemock710baltim.jpg[/URL]



http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/6295/22209stevemock710baltims.jpg[/URL]
http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/9716/22209stevemock710baltim.jpg[/URL]



http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/8144/22209stevemock710baltimc.jpg[/URL]
http://img175.imageshack.us/img175/7374/22209stevemock710baltimv.jpg[/URL]



http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/5737/22209stevemock710baltimwv0.jpg[/URL]

This last shot was in the daytime with a skylight way up there and only able to be partially blocked, so the blacks won't be quite as inky as in the previous shots, with the daylight allowing you to see the nice wood cabinetry on this one, which Steve created from scratch BTW. VERY nice woodwork by the owner.

Cam's exposure setting lower than in shot above, at cam, display's settings remained the same. Would have reduced the exposure on the Before shot above to get a match with this one on the exposure, but it was too late by then

http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/2879/22209stevemock710baltimat4.jpg[/URL]


b

4 layers of half-inch thick wood, for exactly 2" thickness

http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/8501/22209stevemock710baltimsm3.jpg (http://img23.imageshack.us/my.php?image=22209stevemock710baltimsm3.jpg)
http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/22209stevemock710baltimsm3.jpg/1/w800.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img23/22209stevemock710baltimsm3.jpg/1/)

http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/7650/22209stevemock710baltimwv4.jpg (http://img23.imageshack.us/my.php?image=22209stevemock710baltimwv4.jpg)
http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/22209stevemock710baltimwv4.jpg/1/w800.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img23/22209stevemock710baltimwv4.jpg/1/)


You can see 2 blocks on this shot, because the entire array tray is raised so much

http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/4782/22209stevemock710baltimpg4.jpg (http://img23.imageshack.us/my.php?image=22209stevemock710baltimpg4.jpg)
http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/22209stevemock710baltimpg4.jpg/1/w800.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img23/22209stevemock710baltimpg4.jpg/1/)

Steve's rather unique way of doing the bolts. As Kirk said in Wrath of Khan, about his solution to the unwinnable Kobiashi Maru (?) test at the Academy, "It had the unique virtue of never having been tried..." Observe the MULTIPLE washers at the head of the bolt, since we could not get the bolt to penetrate the set's metal tray beyond just a little bite, even with the hole already there for a smaller bolt thickness that we simply could not lay our hands on in an elongated length. Worked like a charm...


http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/7264/22209stevemock710baltimls9.jpg (http://img23.imageshack.us/my.php?image=22209stevemock710baltimls9.jpg)
http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/22209stevemock710baltimls9.jpg/1/w800.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img23/22209stevemock710baltimls9.jpg/1/)

http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/7605/22209stevemock710baltimuy1.jpg (http://img23.imageshack.us/my.php?image=22209stevemock710baltimuy1.jpg)
http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/22209stevemock710baltimuy1.jpg/1/w800.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img23/22209stevemock710baltimuy1.jpg/1/)

The results


Before

http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/8612/22209stevemock710baltimeu7.jpg (http://img23.imageshack.us/my.php?image=22209stevemock710baltimeu7.jpg)
http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/22209stevemock710baltimeu7.jpg/1/w800.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img23/22209stevemock710baltimeu7.jpg/1/)

After

Had to push the image up a bit from center because of a pesky red and blue dot that were visible in the blacks at fully centered vertically.

Top could have been a bit straighter and more parallel to the frame, but the shimming op had taken so long by then I was kind of in a rush and missed it. That wood wall that had to be removed was incredibly hard to get out when thru the front was the only way. He really didn't want to have to take the set out to get to the back of it, and with his considerations on what was back there to have to deal with, I didn't blame him...

Redoing the o'scan this way takes a lot of pressure off the coarse and fine geo/conv circuit, which can happen when reducing it via sm only

http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/1112/22209stevemock710baltimps0.jpg (http://img23.imageshack.us/my.php?image=22209stevemock710baltimps0.jpg)
http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/22209stevemock710baltimps0.jpg/1/w800.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img23/22209stevemock710baltimps0.jpg/1/)

That's not what my 57" looks like (which is why it was easy for me to put the shims under the flanges on the side - this one doesn't HAVE flanges on the side!); what set is this?
Nice end result, though.

That's not what my 57" looks like (which is why it was easy for me to put the shims under the flanges on the side - this one doesn't HAVE flanges on the side!); what set is this?
Nice end result, though.

Well actually it does, but it also has stops that make using paint sticks impossible.

It's a Pioneer Elite 710, from '99-2000. Not old at all, huh? Many happy years ahead of this puppy...

:D

BTW, congrats on your 1000th post, of a little while ago!

:cool:

b

BTW, congrats on your 1000th post, of a little while ago!

:cool:

b

Thanks. Here are more, as the mods progress.

Again, the lenses shimmed (this is a pic using a tripod to replace the previous blurry one):

http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/1116/p1020534.jpg

Here's a mod for ultimate, rich, deep blacks:

http://img133.imageshack.us/img133/7714/p1020535.jpg

Just kidding. The red circles mark where the lenses are. After cutting out the circles:

http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/4994/p1020536.jpg

Tuck everything in, screen on, done.
About $6 worth of felt. Lots easier than paint or Sharpie. Just check the lower corners before you get everything screwed back together to make sure the fabric is out of the way (go ahead, guess how I learned that one!).

Michael

Ok everyone here are the pictures, one of the picture is in color but the other 2 are in black and white and i can see the green in the black and white picture.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y298/hitesh/03032009068.jpg

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y298/hitesh/03032009066.jpg

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y298/hitesh/03032009064.jpg

Micheal,
Good work buddy, you will have that Hitachi singing, time for some lens strips to clean up color uniformity across the screen and a good lens hood system to prevent refracted light from the lens shining onto the back of the screen and lowering ANSI contrast.
A good lens hood-shield makes it impossible to see the lenses directly with your eyes at any point on the screen plain, all light getting to the screen must come via the mirror, non directly from the lenses. Look at the pictures I posted of my old Hitachi and you will get the idea. Even when looking down from the top edge of the screen plain I was not able to see the lens directly, only via the mirror.

Don’t stop now, you are on a role. :D

Ok everyone here are the pictures, one of the picture is in color but the other 2 are in black and white and i can see the green in the black and white picture.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y298/hitesh/03032009068.jpg

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y298/hitesh/03032009066.jpg

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y298/hitesh/03032009064.jpg

Its definetly on the left side as you face it. I dont want to guess here. I'll wait to see if anyone else with more experience throws in first.

OK everyone I decided to try and fix the shempluge (I have no idea how to spell it). going off what I have read here and mostly Mr. Bob's quick advice on a phone consult I went in to fix the red blooming on the left side of the screen. It took up 1/3 of the screen. It didn't flood the whites. It showed up on the edges of images. It was really bad on the 117p convergence pattern. You couldn't converge the lines. Red bloomed over them. It got worse toward the outer edges.

So I opened it up. I took two 3/8 washers. I loosened the 4 screws that hold the lense down. I left the screws in and slowly pushed the washers up to them. I lifted the screws up and let the washer hole slip in and then quickly pushed the screws down. This reduced the odds of it slipping past and ending up in my coolant cups or worse. I then tightened the screws down, put on the screen and discovered it was worse. Trial and error. Wrong side.

So I took them out. I ended up using a flexible insulated wire to put behind the washer to keep it from falling inside. I then put them on the inside and it was much better. The left was cured. My right side now bloomed a little. I ended up redoing manual focus on the red lense and hit on a very close compromise of almost perfect focus across the whole screen.

I cleaned my mirror and lenses. Put up DCAM and reconverged red. So much better now. Anyway if you have this problem you need to be very careful with those washers. If you haven't done manual focus before I would phone consult with Mr. Bob. He taught me how to do it and it takes out a lot of guessing.

OK everyone I decided to try and fix the shempluge (I have no idea how to spell it). going off what I have read here and mostly Mr. Bob's quick advice on a phone consult I went in to fix the red blooming on the left side of the screen. It took up 1/3 of the screen. It didn't flood the whites. It showed up on the edges of images. It was really bad on the 117p convergence pattern. You couldn't converge the lines. Red bloomed over them. It got worse toward the outer edges.

So I opened it up. I took two 3/8 washers. I loosened the 4 screws that hold the lense down. I left the screws in and slowly pushed the washers up to them. I lifted the screws up and let the washer hole slip in and then quickly pushed the screws down. This reduced the odds of it slipping past and ending up in my coolant cups or worse. I then tightened the screws down, put on the screen and discovered it was worse. Trial and error. Wrong side.

So I took them out. I ended up using a flexible insulated wire to put behind the washer to keep it from falling inside. I then put them on the inside and it was much better. The left was cured. My right side now bloomed a little. I ended up redoing manual focus on the red lense and hit on a very close compromise of almost perfect focus across the whole screen.

I cleaned my mirror and lenses. Put up DCAM and reconverged red. So much better now. Anyway if you have this problem you need to be very careful with those washers. If you haven't done manual focus before I would phone consult with Mr. Bob. He taught me how to do it and it takes out a lot of guessing.

A quicker way of doing scheimpflug is to defocus the optical on the lens in question till the lines are about an inch thick. This shows up the error better than the regular thin lines.

Great work!

BTW, if your set has it, all sets of that ID model have it too. Hope they tune in -


b

Anyone know anything about the Hitachi 57f510 series? Someone semi local has one really really cheap but as the ad says:

When I plug this thing in the red power light will come on BUT the screen doesn't light up. Odds are this is a simple fix but I've never repaired a TV before and I just don't have a truck to take it into a repair center (they charge too much for housecalls)

Is that an easy fix? I know this is a long shot but if it's not an easy or cheap fix would it be possible to put the guts of my 51F59A in the 57F510?

Ryan

A quicker way of doing scheimpflug is to defocus the optical on the lens in question till the lines are about an inch thick. This shows up the error better than the regular thin lines.

Great work!

BTW, if your set has it, all sets of that ID model have it too. Hope they tune in -


b

I tuned in last year - "washer mod" tightened up the red screenwide.


Shimming due next - at some point.

Anyone know anything about the Hitachi 57f510 series? Someone semi local has one really really cheap but as the ad says:



Is that an easy fix? I know this is a long shot but if it's not an easy or cheap fix would it be possible to put the guts of my 51F59A in the 57F510?

Ryan

IIRC, these are the series just before the F59s - so, Hitachi's 2nd to last CRT RPTV line .

Essentially the same guts & chassis - I believe you gain a "true" HD OTA digital tuner & QAM tuner with this series, which the F59s lack.

Factory instilled OOB overscan. BD graphics lettering - or anything else up there at top of screen that you might want to see - cut off at the knees. Same on bottom, cutting off much of her chin

http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/9716/22209stevemock710baltim.jpg[/URL]

After

Overscan redux in action. Not only fully restored lettering, but of several inches of the gray above it as well. Same applies at bottom of screen, restoring the contour of her chin. And all around.

Apply this to sports scores and other graphics your CRT RPTV display is currenty missing and your eyes are starving for, if you've never had it done.

ALL CRT RPTV tech came with overscan as standard equipment, but the original pic can always be restored by someone in the know, again revealing those formerly lost areas of video real estate and at the same time heightening the available to be viewed visible pixel count. And thus heightened, more intense image resolution, both horizontally and vertically

http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/9716/22209stevemock710baltim.jpg[/URL]

Before

http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/9716/22209stevemock710baltim.jpg[/URL]

After

Just imagine...

Unfortunately, I didn't get an After on this one! The only After on o'scan redux other than Lilu's closeup is the grid, shown before. Maybe next time...

:o


b

http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/9716/22209stevemock710baltim.jpg[/URL]


b

Great example of what a set should look like...

Those are on the now-shimmed Pioneer you did recently, Bob?

If so, that set had more factory o'scan that either Hitachi I have owned ever did (based on the o'scan screen shots from yesterday). But, you worked your magic & surely have a grinning owner as a result.

Great example of what a set should look like...


Thanks, I am a great fan of suspension of disbelief. Reality programming in its purest form -

;)

b

Those are on the now-shimmed Pioneer you did recently, Bob?

If so, that set had more factory o'scan that either Hitachi I have owned ever did (based on the o'scan screen shots from yesterday). But, you worked your magic & surely have a grinning owner as a result.

Yeah, his cheeks were getting pretty sore, there, afterwards...

:D

I have found different amounts of overscan on the different brands, some where the h and v are non-equal, meaning there are non-symmetrical ovals rather than symmetrical circles, where there should be perfect circles.

Perfect circles where there are SUPPOSED TO BE perfect circles are one of our best bets at attaining effortless suspension of disbelief.


b

Anyone know anything about the Hitachi 57f510 series? Someone semi local has one really really cheap but as the ad says:

Is that an easy fix? I know this is a long shot but if it's not an easy or cheap fix would it be possible to put the guts of my 51F59A in the 57F510?

Ryan

I have the 65F710A that I bought back in December from UEC Web that has had the same problem. I had a repairman out about a month ago and he said it was one of the heat sinks wasn't properly attached, so the board overheats and shuts down to protect itself. He said the heat sink is only held on by a couple of rivets and it doesn't work very well. He soldered the heat sink down and the problem went away for about a month.

However last week it came back. The TV would turn on for a while but then randomly shut the screen off (when it got too warm). I would turn the TV off for a few minutes and then it would come back on and stay on for a while until it happened again. Usually after it shut itself down about 3 or 4 times it would then work fine for the rest of the night.

Last Friday night it was especially annoying and it shut off 6 or 7 times before it stayed on. So I decided to just leave it on all weekend. I never had a problem the rest of the weekend, and finally shut it off Sunday night. It has worked fine all this week but I still have an appointment for the repairman to come back on Tuesday to look at it again.

I was thinking that maybe putting some of the heat sink compound that you use on computer proccessor heat sinks on the heat sink on this board might help. Mr. Bob, what is your input?

I have the 65F710A that I bought back in December from UEC Web that has had the same problem. I had a repairman out about a month ago and he said it was one of the heat sinks wasn't properly attached, so the board overheats and shuts down to protect itself. He said the heat sink is only held on by a couple of rivets and it doesn't work very well. He soldered the heat sink down and the problem went away for about a month.

However last week it came back. The TV would turn on for a while but then randomly shut the screen off (when it got too warm). I would turn the TV off for a few minutes and then it would come back on and stay on for a while until it happened again. Usually after it shut itself down about 3 or 4 times it would then work fine for the rest of the night.

Last Friday night it was especially annoying and it shut off 6 or 7 times before it stayed on. So I decided to just leave it on all weekend. I never had a problem the rest of the weekend, and finally shut it off Sunday night. It has worked fine all this week but I still have an appointment for the repairman to come back on Tuesday to look at it again.

I was thinking that maybe putting some of the heat sink compound that you use on computer proccessor heat sinks on the heat sink on this board might help. Mr. Bob, what is your input?

Soldering the heat sinks to the board will do you no earthly good. The sinks themselves are what dissipate the heat, not the board. They could be free floating in there and still do their job right, if they are what I am thinking of. Some designs couple the sinks to the bulkhead for additional heat transfer, but that's not usually a job that involves soldering them in.

HS compound is what is applied to the backs of the ICs themselves to transfer the heat from them directly to the sinks, which are cooled by convection. If you want to make that better, install a cooling fan aimed at the sink itself.

But this kind of thing is indicative of cold solder joints somewhere, as they are also a heat-related thing. I would go for that first, as the ICs were prolly HS compounded in there just fine last time they were mounted and installed, if the installing tech knew what he was doing.


b

http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/5089/p1020523.jpg

This picture gives me hope that I can just swap the guts of my 51F59A into the body of the 57F510. Of course I'd have to paint the screen frame black... (I saw that on another thread somewhere on the board a long time ago). The guy only wants $75 for the broke 57F510. This is quite tempting... much easier to swallow than $400 for just the screen and I get a bigger TV to boot.

Ryan

This picture gives me hope that I can just swap the guts of my 51F59A into the body of the 57F510.
Ryan

Now THAT'S what I call a tweak.
Good luck, and keep us posted.

http://img110.imageshack.us/img110/8983/colleen.jpg

A few tweaks to the camera and I think I'll be ready for another round.
If you'll excuse me, Colleen and I have work to do.

So does anyone no what i can do to make that green go away please someone help me out please and thank you very very much.

So does anyone no what i can do to make that green go away please someone help me out please and thank you very very much.

I dont know what that is exactly but start with an AVIA or DVE disk and see what the color decoder is doing with green. It almost looks like it is only on one side of the screen. That could be the camera you used or just the way the shot came out.

You may be trying to draw a correlation between two separate issues. Grayscale may be the issue and the pink problem may have nothing to do with it. We can get grayscale to a state that you can live with but without a pro's eye or an EYEONE or such device it will be hard to get it spot on.

Thanks for this thread. Someone referred me here from the Something Awful Forums HDTV thread.

I have a 57F59 and have had it since October '07. Its a great TV and I've had no problems with it other than the occasional image shift that happens with my Dish Network HD DVR plugged into the HDMI port, which I'm still not sure what causes this.

I've only just recently heard about the whole calibration thing. I've seen the discs that promise to do it and have seen mixed reviews about all of them so its hard to tell which of them is the best. I also don't have a whole lot of money to hire a professional. However I'm very interested in this to make my picture the best it can be. What does everyone here recommend for the most part? My TV is used the most at night with one lamp burning on the other side of the room from the TV. Otherwise is watched in the daytime with natural daylight coming through the blinds. The tv is used to watch regular TV through Dish Network, movies through my upconverting Sony Bravia HDX500 DVD player and surround sound system, and to play Xbox 360, and Nintendo Wii which I have connected through component cables. Thanks to anyone that can help. I really want to have a stunning picture with this television as I cannot afford to upgrade and am perfectly happy with this one.

Thanks for this thread. Someone referred me here from the Something Awful Forums HDTV thread.

I have a 57F59 and have had it since October '07. Its a great TV and I've had no problems with it other than the occasional image shift that happens with my Dish Network HD DVR plugged into the HDMI port, which I'm still not sure what causes this.

I've only just recently heard about the whole calibration thing. I've seen the discs that promise to do it and have seen mixed reviews about all of them so its hard to tell which of them is the best. I also don't have a whole lot of money to hire a professional. However I'm very interested in this to make my picture the best it can be. What does everyone here recommend for the most part? My TV is used the most at night with one lamp burning on the other side of the room from the TV. Otherwise is watched in the daytime with natural daylight coming through the blinds. The tv is used to watch regular TV through Dish Network, movies through my upconverting Sony Bravia HDX500 DVD player and surround sound system, and to play Xbox 360, and Nintendo Wii which I have connected through component cables. Thanks to anyone that can help. I really want to have a stunning picture with this television as I cannot afford to upgrade and am perfectly happy with this one.

Railroad5,

Welcome to this forum!

Start out with a calibration disk like Avia or Digital Video Essentials and go through the tutorials a couple times. Either one is fine for this purpose. It takes time but it's time well spent. If you're in a pinch get a THX DVD and there should be some calibration patterns and minimal instructions there also. You'll need a blue filter and that only comes with DVE or Avia. Use color temp =MEDIUM.

The image shift is well documented in another thread and maybe in this one as well. Search AVS. There's a service menu (partial) fix, but your image will still shift afterward, but other issues like color "freakout" may be eliminated. Hitachi has a serviceman fix for the image shift.

The image shift is well documented in another thread and maybe in this one as well. Search AVS. There's a service menu (partial) fix, but your image will still shift afterward, but other issues like color "freakout" may be eliminated. Hitachi has a serviceman fix for the image shift.

It starts here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=842581
Skim through the beginning, since the solution is a repair by Hitachi, free of charge. Call the regular service number and get on the list.
Then go to the beginning of THIS thread and get to work!
Welcome, and enjoy.

Railroad5,

Welcome to this forum!

Start out with a calibration disk like Avia or Digital Video Essentials and go through the tutorials a couple times. Either one is fine for this purpose. It takes time but it's time well spent. If you're in a pinch get a THX DVD and there should be some calibration patterns and minimal instructions there also. You'll need a blue filter and that only comes with DVE or Avia. Use color temp =MEDIUM.

The image shift is well documented in another thread and maybe in this one as well. Search AVS. There's a service menu (partial) fix, but your image will still shift afterward, but other issues like color "freakout" may be eliminated. Hitachi has a serviceman fix for the image shift.

In the Hitachis you don't need a filter, you can actually isolate the color you working on through the SM (service menu). You could use a filter but isolating the color RGBOUT 03 (blue) is the way to go; yo can also go through green (RGBOUT 02) and red (RGBOUT 01). WARNING!!! if you change anything in the SM make sure you write down your initial settings.

Also, most people recommend using STANDARD since this temperature is the closes to D6500K, and adjust from there.

Here are the original instructions from LastButNotLeast (Michael) regarding the color isolation:

"Bring up the color bars of your choice (I've used AVIA and DVE with the same results).
In the user menu, set Color to 50, Tint to 0 and Temperature to Standard.
In the service menu, change COLORG to 00 (if you've changed it to 01).
Change RGBOUT (first item in TA1360 menu) to 03.
Scroll down to COLOR-STD and TINT-STD and
BLUE 03
color-std
tint-std


alternate between them until the blue boxes are all the same color. Don't forget to press SELECT to save your final settings.
Back up to RGBOUT, change to 02 (green).
Alternate between GY-PH-CBCR and G/BGA-CBCR-STD to get as many of the green boxes as close to the same color as possible. SELECT.
GREEN 02
gy-ph-cbcr
g/bga-cbcr-std


Back to RGBOUT, change to 01 (red).
Alternate between RY-PH-CBCR and R/BGA-CBCR-STD to get as many of the red boxes as close to the same color as possible. SELECT.
RED 01
ry-ph-cbcr
r/bga-cbcr-std

Up to RGBOUT, change to 00 (unless you're particularly fond of red, green, or blue). SELECT.
Find COLORG and change it back to 01. SELECT.
Exit the service menu, pop in the disc of your choice, and let me know what you think.
Michael"

Lastly get a copy of the service menu, it explains how to do get into SM as well as the procedure to do DCAM covergence a must if you want your set to have a superb image.

LastButNotLeast: I love the paint sticks method for shimming! I don't have a saw or anything and have been waiting to do this trying to figure out how to get the pieces of wood I'd need (not much of a handyman you can see). You have a 57"? So would you say maybe 3-sticks for a 51"?

Also you said you put the lens array "on top" of the cabinet, what do you mean by that?

Thanks for this thread. Someone referred me here from the Something Awful Forums HDTV thread.

I have a 57F59 and have had it since October '07. Its a great TV and I've had no problems with it other than the occasional image shift that happens with my Dish Network HD DVR plugged into the HDMI port, which I'm still not sure what causes this.

I've only just recently heard about the whole calibration thing. I've seen the discs that promise to do it and have seen mixed reviews about all of them so its hard to tell which of them is the best. I also don't have a whole lot of money to hire a professional. However I'm very interested in this to make my picture the best it can be. What does everyone here recommend for the most part? My TV is used the most at night with one lamp burning on the other side of the room from the TV. Otherwise is watched in the daytime with natural daylight coming through the blinds. The tv is used to watch regular TV through Dish Network, movies through my upconverting Sony Bravia HDX500 DVD player and surround sound system, and to play Xbox 360, and Nintendo Wii which I have connected through component cables. Thanks to anyone that can help. I really want to have a stunning picture with this television as I cannot afford to upgrade and am perfectly happy with this one.

Welcome!

I recommend all of the above, plus reading through this thread from the beginning, there is a lot of valuable information to be had. There is a lot to learn, but once you do, calibrating this set is a breeze. I've calibrated three in total, my initial set, one I bought for my ex, and my current 65 incher. You can definitely do it and I promise you, you have nowhere to upgrade to. CRT still produces the best, most three dimensional pic around if calibrated and tweaked correctly.

Welcome!

I recommend all of the above, plus reading through this thread from the beginning, there is a lot of valuable information to be had. ... you have nowhere to upgrade to. CRT still produces the best, most three dimensional pic around if calibrated and tweaked correctly.

+1

CRTs are still the standard of comparison . (period)

That's awesome, I was just thinking about that. I've never seen a digital tv that can reproduce film-like images the way these sets do after calibration. For a natural, film quality picture with excellent color reproduction, black levels, and depth, I wouldn't trade my set in for new digital tv if they gave it to me. When I was a kid, I never imagined I would be able to watch something like Blade Runner on this big of a tv first of all, let alone in the pristine quality that it delivers in HD, even surpassing the theater experience.

Then you'll love a thread I started more than 2 years ago which is still going strong. Observe its number of pages when you get there. We celebrated our 150h page a few weeks ago. I couldn't agree more with you, even after more than 2 years down the line.

"Don't Dump Your CRT RPTV!"

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=695922&page=168

There has been discussion here about whether to keep ColorGo at 00 or put it at 01. I believe it was decided that keeping it at 00 was the best way. In any case, you don't want to be changing it to 01 if you have already achieved perfection at 00. Testing it with the RGBOut regs is the best way to doublecheck that. If it doesn't change anything when putting it at 01, then nothing lost. But if it does, keep as final product the position of the regs where you get the best color testing on the color bars in each single isolated color. I believe the best way to do that is to keep it at 00 at all times.

Mem that set of settings one by one by hitting Select on each one you want to stay changed, on the position you have changed it at.

Last time I did the color decoding op it was on an older Mit where I could use the I2C interface to realign the color decoding, and then we played Wall-E for doublecheck. Even I was impressed! The colorations were absolutely eye-popping! The depth and palpability delivered by the fully calibrated set gave incredible 3 Dimensional texture even to animation, and the color decoding completed the package.

:p

You can see screenshots of my set's colorations in action here in this thread. One of the most recent sets was the Victoria's Secret Fashion Show shots, with Seal and Heidi Klum, among others.

;)

b

LastButNotLeast: I love the paint sticks method for shimming! I don't have a saw or anything and have been waiting to do this trying to figure out how to get the pieces of wood I'd need (not much of a handyman you can see). You have a 57"? So would you say maybe 3-sticks for a 51"?

Also you said you put the lens array "on top" of the cabinet, what do you mean by that?

Depends (3 or 4) on where you're starting and where you want to end up. Nothing wrong with trying more and taking some out if you find yourself running out of picture.
When you slide the array out, you discover that it's attached below the cabinet. So, in order to raise the array, you need to slide it back in on top of the panel it was previously below. That starts you with 1/2 inch of shim.
I did it myself but, if you have an extra pair of hands available, it's easier.
There are some strange bolts holding the array in, so check carefully before you get involved. Thing's built like a tank, which is rather impressive, actually.

ON the ColorG note. I really put in a lot of time on that tweak. I did everything possible switching those settings back and forth. ColorG at 00 allowed me to dial in my decoder closest to what I believe is the intended color from the source. We all started messing with ColorG to get the red push out. It ended up that once you get the decoder right and use some of these tweaks in this thread going to 01 is not necessary. Switching to 03 has been used as it is much closer to 00 but I personally dont see the reason why. Leave it ar 00 and adjust from there.

So does anyone no what i can do to make that green go away please someone help me out please and thank you very very much.

Kishan,

You need to give more feedback on your problem. What have you done to your set before this, such as tweaks. Those pics are great but we need a little more about what you have done to it. I will help if I can but it could always be a problem that can only be solved by a professional. At this point we dont know yet.:)

Ok everyone here are the pictures, one of the picture is in color but the other 2 are in black and white and i can see the green in the black and white picture.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y298/hitesh/03032009068.jpg

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y298/hitesh/03032009066.jpg




You have green unevenly across your screen, which exacerbates the problem.

If that green is actually yellow, perhaps you have impediments in your blue on one side of your blue gun, inside. Wouldn't be the first time we've heard of cooties in the blue coolant in this thread, and others.


b

You have green unevenly across your screen, which exacerbates the problem.

If that green is actually yellow, perhaps you have impediments in your blue on one side of your blue gun, inside. Wouldn't be the first time we've heard of cooties in the blue coolant in this thread, and others.


b

Cooties usually show up as "blobs." This is too dramatic for that.
Looks almost like something inside is blocking the lens.
Have you taken the screen off, kishan?

You have green unevenly across your screen, which exacerbates the problem.

If that green is actually yellow, perhaps you have impediments in your blue on one side of your blue gun, inside. Wouldn't be the first time we've heard of cooties in the blue coolant in this thread, and others.


b

I'm wondering if thats not the camera blocking out the right side and its really green as well. Wouldn't it be very odd to have green over powering the left side (as you face the screen) since thats where the red gun is?:confused:

Hey I have not done any tweaks at all except like last year or so when I did the service menu stuff like colorg and stuff and I have not taken the screen of at all.

Hey I have not done any tweaks at all except like last year or so when I did the service menu stuff like colorg and stuff and I have not taken the screen of at all.

OK. IS that what were really seeing? Is it green only on one side?

Cooties usually show up as "blobs." This is too dramatic for that.
Looks almost like something inside is blocking the lens.
Have you taken the screen off, kishan?

The cooties YOU have seen only show up as blobs. From the many cases I have seen over the years, it can very well be like the red bleck crawling across the landscape of the Earth in War of the Worlds. A fungus, growing across the screen face, inside the coolant cover, starting at one side and heading for the other. That's what this looks like to me.


b

I'm wondering if thats not the camera blocking out the right side and its really green as well. Wouldn't it be very odd to have green over powering the left side (as you face the screen) since thats where the red gun is?:confused:

I have never seen a cam do that. I have seen them insert a green hor band, or have an upper or lower half be green, but that's it.


b

I have never seen a cam do that. I have seen them insert a green hor band, or have an upper or lower half be green, but that's it.


b

Well then its "Off with the Screen" then Kisham. This thread is loaded with how to do that. JUst research the word screen and lens cleaning. Be very careful though with the lenses as Mr. Bob preaches because its an easy cleaning job but one that carelessness can easily turn into a nightmare.

Hey guys don't worry about my problem cause i got i fixed it yesterday night. What i did was open the panel and then i blew in the 3 white wires and then i plugged them back in the right place and when i turned on the tv hoping it would work and it really worked and no green and i was happy cause now i do not have to call someone to fix a small problem like this. Thank you all very much for all the help you all provided. Now i have a question, i am thinking about ordering the avia dvd and i was wondering how hard is it to do the colors and other stuff it will show us to do?

Hey guys don't worry about my problem cause i got i fixed it yesterday night. What i did was open the panel and then i blew in the 3 white wires and then i plugged them back in the right place and when i turned on the tv hoping it would work and it really worked and no green and i was happy cause now i do not have to call someone to fix a small problem like this. Thank you all very much for all the help you all provided. Now i have a question, i am thinking about ordering the avia dvd and i was wondering how hard is it to do the colors and other stuff it will show us to do?

Man you have a real weird TV cause I have no idea what is going on with it. I'm happy its fixed (I think). I would suggest Digital Video Essentials or AVIA. To me both work fine. DVE is what I have and I like it. ITs all pretty explanatory. I would recommend you read this whole thread as well. I don think there is a better source of info on how to make your set perfect.

Again this thread is really helpful. I was wondering if DVE is the easiest, but most reliable to use. I'm not real good at fooling with settings and being able to tell if somethings as clear or sharp as it should be so I think I would need something pretty easy. Also I see that there is a regular DVD version as well as a blu-ray version. I have an upconverting DVD player but not a blu-ray player. Is there much of a difference? I mean can the DVD used with the upconverting player give me close to the results the other one can?

Also will I have to go into the service menu when calibrating with the discs?

superleo, are you saying that I can use the color isolation method instead of the filter, and that it is the best method? Just wanted to clarify.

Again this thread is really helpful. I was wondering if DVE is the easiest, but most reliable to use. I'm not real good at fooling with settings and being able to tell if somethings as clear or sharp as it should be so I think I would need something pretty easy. Also I see that there is a regular DVD version as well as a blu-ray version. I have an upconverting DVD player but not a blu-ray player. Is there much of a difference? I mean can the DVD used with the upconverting player give me close to the results the other one can?

Also will I have to go into the service menu when calibrating with the discs?

superleo, are you saying that I can use the color isolation method instead of the filter, and that it is the best method? Just wanted to clarify.


To be fair and realistic; you do not have to go inot SM at all when using AVIA or DVE, ALL the setting chanages recomended by these DVDs are through the User Menu. They have to do with CONTRAST, BRIGHTNESS, SHARPNESS, COLOR and TINT which are your basic User Menu Items. By going through these settings and adjusting your set should benefit from it, however if you want your set to be calibrated TO ITS FULLEST POTENTIAL there is no other way than to go into the SM and change the settings from there, wich are essentially the same settings but with alot more specific control over each setting.

On the Hitachis you have the benefit/advantage of taking out two primary colors and just leavig one up, this is isolating one color. Filters mimic this process, by taking away the other two colors through light filtering. Using a filter works, but you are at the filters quality mercy ... some filters are better than others. Another method is to cover two guns to leave one color at a time, but for this you would need to have access to the inisde.

One very important thing even before you do anything else in order to prolong the life of your TV is to bring the CONTRAST down to around 35-40.

Also keep in mind that ALL these settings interact with one another, so by changing something you are altering something else, so you have to go back and forth until you reach what you are looking for.

And BTW I also need someone elses eyes to tell me if it looks better or worse. :confused:

Again this thread is really helpful. I was wondering if DVE is the easiest, but most reliable to use. I'm not real good at fooling with settings and being able to tell if somethings as clear or sharp as it should be so I think I would need something pretty easy. Also I see that there is a regular DVD version as well as a blu-ray version. I have an upconverting DVD player but not a blu-ray player. Is there much of a difference? I mean can the DVD used with the upconverting player give me close to the results the other one can?

Also will I have to go into the service menu when calibrating with the discs?

superleo, are you saying that I can use the color isolation method instead of the filter, and that it is the best method? Just wanted to clarify.

I personally like AVIA more than DVE. My only gripe is that AVIA is only on DVD and not Blu Ray, and as such, you cannot calibrate to rec 709. Otherwise, AVIA is easier to use in my opinion. I also recommend AVIA 2 over AVIA as the grayscale patterns are correct and the color decoding patterns are FAR more accurate.

I personally like AVIA more than DVE. My only gripe is that AVIA is only on DVD and bot Blu Ray and as such, you cannot calibrate to rec 709. Otherwise, AVIA is easier to use in my opinion. I also recommend AVIA 2 over AVIA as the grayscale patterns are correct and the color decoding patterns are FAR more accurate.


AVIA is WAY easier to navigate overall, but DVE is still useful.

I have DVE on HD DVD (old SD version on flip side). The HD edition - and I assume the Bluray is identical - is much easier to move around in.

I have DVE on HD DVD (old SD version on flip side). The HD edition - and I assume the Bluray is identical - is much easier to move around in.

The Blu version can't be identical - there's no flip side!;)
A pdf manual used to be available. More interesting than useful, but I don't see it on the site anymore.
Avia has a better intro, DVE has a great demo section.
For starters, find a disc with the THX calibration stuff for free. You can't do the color without the glasses, but you can get brightness, contrast, and sound checked.
More free calibration stuff here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=948496
If you can get into the service menu just to change RBGOUT so you can do your color, you'll be far ahead. Instructions for that are around here everywhere.
Have fun!

This picture gives me hope that I can just swap the guts of my 51F59A into the body of the 57F510. Of course I'd have to paint the screen frame black... (I saw that on another thread somewhere on the board a long time ago). The guy only wants $75 for the broke 57F510. This is quite tempting... much easier to swallow than $400 for just the screen and I get a bigger TV to boot.

Ryan

I decided not to try to add my 51F59A guts to the 57F510 or just get the 57F510 to cut the screen down to 51". The F510 series seems to have a glossy screen and I don't like that. Also I'm sure I'd have to adjust the manual focus on the guns and possibly angle them differently to get the image right on the 57" screen. Seems like more trouble than it's worth. I think I'll just wait for a 51F59A to show up somewhere locally or just save up for the screen... I still kinda want a 65F59A though hahahah

Ryan

I think I'll just wait for a 51F59A to show up somewhere locally or just save up for the screen... I still kinda want a 65F59A though hahahah

Ryan

Me, too, but UEC hasn't had anything in months, which is why I went for the repair on mine. Good luck.

Anybody know where I can purchase a Kodak Gray Scale? You know the old ones used for photography but I have seen them used for calibrating a set. I found some on the net for about $23.00. There about 8 inches. I figure it will get me closer to a better grayscale without the cost and learning curve of a meter.

Does anyone think that if I printed one off on a ink printer that it would accurately represent the gray scale?

Anybody know where I can purchase a Kodak Gray Scale? You know the old ones used for photography but I have seen them used for calibrating a set. I found some on the net for about $23.00. There about 8 inches. I figure it will get me closer to a better grayscale without the cost and learning curve of a meter.

Does anyone think that if I printed one off on a ink printer that it would accurately represent the gray scale?

I know most people prefer the Eye-1 for calibration since is fairly inexpensive compare to other colorimeters and the most reliable one of the entry level ones.

I went with the Spyder 2, and I'm please with the results ... and the price. If you look around you can get a Spyder 2 for just over $50.00.

I started the shimming on my set yesterday, and also did deep optics cleaning and mirror.
All major work still to be done. Tried pulling a Mr. Bob eyeballing covergance for the geometry, and guess what!!! Yep I'm not Mr. Bob... my circles are... well not circles.

The set is watchable, and credited to the cleaning or the shimming, it looks very good even at this stage.

I'll post as time permits and I get some progress.

Anybody know where I can purchase a Kodak Gray Scale? You know the old ones used for photography but I have seen them used for calibrating a set. I found some on the net for about $23.00. There about 8 inches. I figure it will get me closer to a better grayscale without the cost and learning curve of a meter.

Does anyone think that if I printed one off on a ink printer that it would accurately represent the gray scale?

A grey scale card is only as good as the light source illuminating it, so unless you have a known 6500k light its basically worthless.
You can get compact fluro lights with a 6500k rating, don’t know how accurate the rating is though, probably close enough to be useful.


Printing your own card is out of the question.

Anybody know where I can purchase a Kodak Gray Scale? You know the old ones used for photography but I have seen them used for calibrating a set. I found some on the net for about $23.00. There about 8 inches. I figure it will get me closer to a better grayscale without the cost and learning curve of a meter.

Does anyone think that if I printed one off on a ink printer that it would accurately represent the gray scale?

I have kodak grayscale cards, bought them new about 4 years ago to do my hitachi grayscale. Have a 6500k bulb. I used my wife and son to help me decide if a 20 ire window looked like the card, when adjusting the cuts, and used the white when adjusting the drives. I thought we were close, and left it that way for years, and I thought the picture looked good.

Well I bought a spyder 2 this Jan, and used HCFR and the AVS 709 cal available in the DVD here on AVS calibration forum. It turns out my eyeballing wasn't even close, my color temp was so high in the blue it was beyond the max that HCFR charts. HCFR isnt too hard to master, and once you get it, it doesn't take long to get your grayscale into shape. There is a good grayscale for dummies by curt palme to help you out. It took a few hours to put it together in my head what HCFR was telling me, as I was measuring it but now I can do it pretty quick. It has been the single most biggest bang for the buck tweak that I have everdone for my HDTV's.

My point is eyeballing grayscale didn't work for me. You might get lucky and be close, but how will you really know. I paid $68.00 for my spyder 2 from newegg and did my hitachi 51uwx20b, my mitsu 65813 and my hitachi pj-tx100 projector, + 3 computer monitors home and at work, works out to about $11.00 for each device. So for another $45.00 you can do it right, without any guess work, if you want to do it yourself. Also you can set your contrast to a specific value instead of using test pattern on a dvd and also calculate the correct brightness value based on your contrast.

Hope this helps and aleast gives you another perspective of someone who has went the route you a going.

I have kodak grayscale cards, bought them new about 4 years ago to do my hitachi grayscale. Have a 6500k bulb. I used my wife and son to help me decide if a 20 ire window looked like the card, when adjusting the cuts, and used the white when adjusting the drives. I thought we were close, and left it that way for years, and I thought the picture looked good.

Well I bought a spyder 2 this Jan, and used HCFR and the AVS 709 cal available in the DVD here on AVS calibration forum. It turns out my eyeballing wasn't even close, my color temp was so high in the blue it was beyond the max that HCFR charts. HCFR isnt too hard to master, and once you get it, it doesn't take long to get your grayscale into shape. There is a good grayscale for dummies by curt palme to help you out. It took a few hours to put it together in my head what HCFR was telling me, as I was measuring it but now I can do it pretty quick. It has been the single most biggest bang for the buck tweak that I have everdone for my HDTV's.

My point is eyeballing grayscale didn't work for me. You might get lucky and be close, but how will you really know. I paid $68.00 for my spyder 2 from newegg and did my hitachi 51uwx20b, my mitsu 65813 and my hitachi pj-tx100 projector, + 3 computer monitors home and at work, works out to about $11.00 for each device. So for another $45.00 you can do it right, without any guess work, if you want to do it yourself. Also you can set your contrast to a specific value instead of using test pattern on a dvd and also calculate the correct brightness value based on your contrast.

Hope this helps and aleast gives you another perspective of someone who has went the route you a going.

Extremely helpful. My set rocks but I know my gray scale is close but not there and that drives me nuts. I guess I will start looking for the meter instead. I saw the gray scale card used on a website once and figured if it gets you close it would do until I bought a meter. I never even thought I would need a 65K bulb. Man theres always something new to learn with these sets. Which makes it fun.

I decided not to try to add my 51F59A guts to the 57F510 or just get the 57F510 to cut the screen down to 51". The F510 series seems to have a glossy screen and I don't like that. Also I'm sure I'd have to adjust the manual focus on the guns and possibly angle them differently to get the image right on the 57" screen. Seems like more trouble than it's worth. I think I'll just wait for a 51F59A to show up somewhere locally or just save up for the screen... I still kinda want a 65F59A though hahahah

Ryan

Me, too, but UEC hasn't had anything in months, which is why I went for the repair on mine. Good luck.

My 65" Panny with 1080i/720p HD each native and separate/independent from each other is available. It's fully cleaned and calibrated and ready for bear. Looks slightly even better than Hitachi, even fully calibrated Hitachi. It's awesome, would not part with it if I didn't have my 73" Mit.

Bax Global will transport these sets.


b

My 65" Panny with 1080i/720p HD each native and separate/independent from each other is available. It's fully cleaned and calibrated and ready for bear. Looks slightly even better than Hitachi, even fully calibrated Hitachi. It's awesome, would not part with it if I didn't have my 73" Mit.

Bax Global will transport these sets.


b

:cool:do you want to sell your 73"...............think abought it:D

:cool:do you want to sell your 73"...............think abought it:D

Sure! As long as I can get a mint condition one to replace it that I can start all over again on! I'd have the new one all tweaked up and in the same condition as this one, in no time!

:p


b

I'm just gonna go back to my close enough Grayscale settings for now. There is really no way to get accurate grayscale without a meter. I'm sure there are those who can eye ball it but I'm not one.

**Went back to the old settings and reduced g-cut by 3 clicks. Better but still need that Spyder2.

Sure! As long as I can get a mint condition one to replace it that I can start all over again on! I'd have the new one all tweaked up and in the same condition as this one, in no time!

:p


b.so.:confused:i guess thats when h**l freezes then ......:(:)i guess that your always looking for these tvs then........

Will a Spyder2express (S2E100) work on our type of displays. Its going for about $57.00 new on most sites.

.so.:confused:i guess thats when h**l freezes then ......:(:)i guess that your always looking for these tvs then........

Actually on both sets I own and have super-tweaked, fellow people out there like you were the ones who clued me in on them. The first was an owner who was ready to send me his set, but found it offered as a year end closeout from www.onecall.com, and sent me that info, which I hopped on immediately, with complete and sincere thanks to him.

The second one - the 73" Mit - someone told me about one that was on sale at the online version of Tweeter, where it was being billed as a 73" LCD. But I knew the model number designations, and confirmed with Mit that it was a CRT. And bought it forthwith.

So I am dead serious - find me one to replace mine that still has NO aging footprint on the CRT faces, with low hours and has been videophile treated - no screenburn and no Torch Mode - and I'll seriously consider it.


b

Will a Spyder2express (S2E100) work on our type of displays. Its going for about $57.00 new on most sites.

Yes the spyder sensors are the same. Its the included software that is bundled with it that is different.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16800998044

Heres the one I have, I think the one you a looking at is the same package but cheaper!

Yes the spyder sensors are the same. Its the included software that is bundled with it that is different.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16800998044

Heres the one I have, I think the one you a looking at is the same package but cheaper!

Thats the one. Thanks! Now to convince my wife the absolute need for this life saving device. ;)

Mustang you might want to do some reading before buying spyder colorimeter. I had Eye One LT/Display 2 and replaced it with DTP-94. You can still buy it new here (http://www.integrated-color.com/cedpro/dtp94.html). You may want to check this thread out before making the final choice http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=958099&highlight=shootout Search for DTP-94, they compared it afterwards.

Thats the one. Thanks! Now to convince my wife the absolute need for this life saving device. ;)

You need this (free) software:

http://www.homecinema-fr.com/ColorHCFR/index_en.php

and this (free) guide:

http://www.curtpalme.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10457

Oh, and a spare hour or two.
Hundred.
:D

Not finished with the calibration process but here is a preview of the shimming,

Before.

http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm148/CastilloLeo/Shimming/DSCF0039.jpg

Overscan prior to shimming.

http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm148/CastilloLeo/Shimming/DSCF0024.jpg

Shimming.

http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm148/CastilloLeo/Shimming/DSCF0048.jpg

This is the way it came out right after setting the array.

http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm148/CastilloLeo/Shimming/DSCF0051.jpg

Quick covergence so the TV could at least be used.

http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm148/CastilloLeo/Shimming/DSCF0056.jpg

First pass at geometry. Yeap... Circles any one?

http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm148/CastilloLeo/Shimming/DSCF0058.jpg

And image prior to any Calibration

http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm148/CastilloLeo/Shimming/DSCF0059.jpg

More to come ...

Counting my set that is the third pics posted on the shimming recently. all three have the same clearance issue on the top/bottom. I mean your set looks just like mine also with the top having less before it blacks out and the bottom going to 0% almost.

After doing the shimming on my set, 57F59, I believe that the overscan on this set is probably limited to around 3% before you start having problems. It might be possible to take it down to 2.5 or below, if someone can figure out the BLANKING settings mentioned before.

Here is the full write-up on shimming my set... http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1129800

After doing the shimming on my set, 57F59, I believe that the overscan on this set is probably limited to around 3% before you start having problems. It might be possible to take it down to 2.5 or below, if someone can figure out the BLANKING settings mentioned before.

Here is the full write-up on shimming my set... http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1129800

Thats some great documentation of the Mod. Good work.

hey by chance does any have the default setting for the whit BAL HIGH and the white BAL MED


Thank you

After doing the shimming on my set, 57F59, I believe that the overscan on this set is probably limited to around 3% before you start having problems. It might be possible to take it down to 2.5 or below, if someone can figure out the BLANKING settings mentioned before.

Here is the full write-up on shimming my set... http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1129800

So for a couple of you (leo, Mustang), are you getting image "blanked out" on some sides after shimming?

I don't have the F59 SM in front of me ATM, but I do know that the parameters to adjust the blanking are listed in the service menu with "BLANK" in the name, as well as (IIRC) either a left/right, top/bottom or H/V notation as well. I believe they are in the TA1360 menu, but they are cetainly SOMEWHERE in the serivce menu. I know - I have messed about with them during a previous, non-shimming o'scan reduction.

The entire "usuable" 16x9 image is blanked out at the farthest edges. If you just expand the left/right blanking, for example, the image will extend out to the point that signal is projected past the screen & reflects back onto the screen, causing edge distortions.

If shimming exposes the blanked areas, a litte nudge outward on those BLANK parameters should do the trick.

hey by chance does any have the default setting for the whit BAL HIGH and the white BAL MED


Thank you

Won't do you much good. Each set is different, depending on how the Screen trimpots have been set up. Unless you are only interested in their relative differences between each other.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe High is the master and commander, and I see no reason to set anything other that that, and use it exclusively. Hit sets that at D10,500K and expects the others to fall into place. They don't. But it becomes the basis for everything else, and affects everything else, while the others do not affect it. It's the baseline. I just set it at D6500K where it should be, maybe clone other settings to it upon request, but High is your bottom line.


b

So for a couple of you (leo, Mustang), are you getting image "blanked out" on some sides after shimming?

I don't have the F59 SM in front of me ATM, but I do know that the parameters to adjust the blanking are listed in the service menu with "BLANK" in the name, as well as (IIRC) either a left/right, top/bottom or H/V notation as well. I believe they are in the TA1360 menu, but they are cetainly SOMEWHERE in the serivce menu. I know - I have messed about with them during a previous, non-shimming o'scan reduction.

The entire "usuable" 16x9 image is blanked out at the farthest edges. If you just expand the left/right blanking, for example, the image will extend out to the point that signal is projected past the screen & reflects back onto the screen, causing edge distortions.

If shimming exposes the blanked areas, a litte nudge outward on those BLANK parameters should do the trick.

jwebb1970,

Right. I also found the blanking controls in that menu on our 51F59A but the top and bottom blanking did nothing. No shutter action at all. The left and right controls are mislabeled and reversed but they do work as expected once you know they're reversed. Maybe others will have more luck...

As you know I have been messing with grayscale settings lately. Last night I noticed a visible green tint in areas of the pic. Not there the day before. I checked convergence and my lines were green. In other words red and blue were slightly unaligned. I had to go through and adjust almost every line, vertical and horizontal. Nothing terrible but strange. Is this a symptom of messing with the grayscale settings so much? Hopefully its not the beginning of a problem.

So for a couple of you (leo, Mustang), are you getting image "blanked out" on some sides after shimming?

I don't have the F59 SM in front of me ATM, but I do know that the parameters to adjust the blanking are listed in the service menu with "BLANK" in the name, as well as (IIRC) either a left/right, top/bottom or H/V notation as well. I believe they are in the TA1360 menu, but they are cetainly SOMEWHERE in the serivce menu. I know - I have messed about with them during a previous, non-shimming o'scan reduction.

The entire "usuable" 16x9 image is blanked out at the farthest edges. If you just expand the left/right blanking, for example, the image will extend out to the point that signal is projected past the screen & reflects back onto the screen, causing edge distortions.

If shimming exposes the blanked areas, a litte nudge outward on those BLANK parameters should do the trick.

Thanks for the explanation... After doing the shimming and right after, no adjustments done, I got the bottom at 0%, top 4%, left at below 2.5% and right just at 2.5%. Now when trying to adjust either to center or make it even, when you move left, the image stays at 2.5% because there is a blank edge to it, however in DCAM my lines are still adjustable with no major distortions. This would tell me that it might be able to go at 2.5% or just below it with minor problems.

Here is the example:

http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm148/CastilloLeo/Shimming/DSCF0055.jpg

I'll look through the service manual see if I can figure out something.

As you know I have been messing with grayscale settings lately. Last night I noticed a visible green tint in areas of the pic. Not there the day before. I checked convergence and my lines were green. In other words red and blue were slightly unaligned. I had to go through and adjust almost every line, vertical and horizontal. Nothing terrible but strange. Is this a symptom of messing with the grayscale settings so much? Hopefully its not the beginning of a problem.

Tweaking grayscale should not affect the image structure at all. The blue defocusing could affect the structure, and redoing the centering mags can affect the astigmatism alignment.

But grayscale, altering cuts and drives? Why would that affect your convergence?


b

Thanks for the explanation... After doing the shimming and right after, no adjustments done, I got the bottom at 0%, top 4%, left at below 2.5% and right just at 2.5%. Now when trying to adjust either to center or make it even, when you move left, the image stays at 2.5% because there is a blank edge to it, however in DCAM my lines are still adjustable with no major distortions. This would tell me that it might be able to go at 2.5% or just below it with minor problems.

Here is the example:

...

I'll look through the service manual see if I can figure out something.

You're talking ideal conditions. Other limiting factors exist, like the centering of your sources - my s/s positioning needs to be shifted left a bit to cover up a false edge on the left side on sat while it's perfectly centered on my BDP.


b

Thanks for the explanation... After doing the shimming and right after, no adjustments done, I got the bottom at 0%, top 4%, left at below 2.5% and right just at 2.5%. Now when trying to adjust either to center or make it even, when you move left, the image stays at 2.5% because there is a blank edge to it, however in DCAM my lines are still adjustable with no major distortions. This would tell me that it might be able to go at 2.5% or just below it with minor problems.

Here is the example:

http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm148/CastilloLeo/Shimming/DSCF0055.jpg

I'll look through the service manual see if I can figure out something.

If I were in this situation, I would attempt (after convergence, etc is done) to center the image vertically via SM H/V position paramaters to split the difference top/bottom. As to horizontally, backing out some blanking on the left side (which according to SummitHDTV's post would require adjusting the blanking paramter that states "right") to regain the bit of video that is currently missing. Then, center horizontally.

Judging by what I am seeing, doing so should sit you btwn 2.5 - 3% all around. If how it sits for you now does not cause any geo. distortions or anything - I think you may have hit your o'scan limit. But2.5 or 3% -that is certainly more than acceptible (at least to me).

I'll let Bob chime in, just in case I'm talking out my butt!:D

If I were in this situation, I would attempt (after convergence, etc is done) to center the image vertically via SM H/V position paramaters to split the difference top/bottom. As to horizontally, backing out some blanking on the left side (which according to SummitHDTV's post would require adjusting the blanking paramter that states "right") to regain the bit of video that is currently missing. Then, center horizontally.

Judging by what I am seeing, doing so should sit you btwn 2.5 - 3% all around. If how it sits for you now does not cause any geo. distortions or anything - I think you may have hit your o'scan limit. But2.5 or 3% -that is certainly more than acceptible (at least to me).

I'll let Bob chime in, just in case I'm talking out my butt!:D

Having your pic exactly equilateral all around is not needed, really. All that's really needed is to show what needs to be shown. If your border above your sat grid edge is 3/8" vs. half an inch, no biggie. Just so everything that's up there that is supposed to be showing, shows.

Ideal will not help when sources are already not ideal and exactly symmetrical with each other on screen positioning anyway. You gotta play all your sources and see where the borders are on each, and placement your pic to maximize all those sets of info.

Getting down to anything below 3% is overkill. There's nothing out there to capture that isn't shown. And when you get that low you show a lot more of the feathering of the conv of the hor lines, out at the edges. Any lower and it becomes in issue as to what to do about it out there.

So 2.5% is OK if you want to put in the extra work. If not, 3% is completely acceptable, IMHO.


b

True, Bob - 3% should be plenty. W/O shimming, I can get just a hair under 4%, but a tad of the feathering mentioned. It's not readily noticable, but I know it's there.

If shimming gets me 3% w/o any issues - well worth it, I imagine. A 1% gain in viewable image is fine, but I think the overal gains in PQ due to simply cramming more pixels/lines onto the screen is the bigger payoff.

Plus, opening up the set to do the shim mod means I have it open to do some other tweaks (blacking out optical cavity via paint, Sharpie or black cloth for example) & perform a likely needed optics cleaning.

Having your pic exactly equilateral all around is not needed, really. All that's really needed is to show what needs to be shown. If your border above your sat grid edge is 3/8" vs. half an inch, no biggie. Just so everything that's up there that is supposed to be showing, shows.

Ideal will not help when sources are already not ideal and exactly symmetrical with each other on screen positioning anyway. You gotta play all your sources and see where the borders are on each, and placement your pic to maximize all those sets of info.

Getting down to anything below 3% is overkill. There's nothing out there to capture that isn't shown. And when you get that low you show a lot more of the feathering of the conv of the hor lines, out at the edges. Any lower and it becomes in issue as to what to do about it out there.

So 2.5% is OK if you want to put in the extra work. If not, 3% is completely acceptable, IMHO.


b

I'll play with the image positioning this weekend (hopefully). And based on what your saying absolute centering is not that important, then, if all works out the way I'm thinking, I should end up with 2.5% at the bottom,3% at the top and just about 3% at the sides.

Is sitting at 3% all the way around right now, and I'm happy, but since I sill need to mess with it, I'll give it a last try. I'll see if the BLANKING issue helps too.

True, Bob - 3% should be plenty. W/O shimming, I can get just a hair under 4%, but a tad of the feathering mentioned. It's not readily noticable, but I know it's there.

If shimming gets me 3% w/o any issues - well worth it, I imagine. A 1% gain in viewable image is fine, but I think the overal gains in PQ due to simply cramming more pixels/lines onto the screen is the bigger payoff.

Plus, opening up the set to do the shim mod means I have it open to do some other tweaks (blacking out optical cavity via paint, Sharpie or black cloth for example) & perform a likely needed optics cleaning.

At 3% I have NO issues with at the edges, at 2.5% is workable and if you try going below that is tolerable but you'll know is there.

I'll agree with you, I think besides getting the overscan reduced you get a more detailed sharper image.

Well worth the effort.

At 3% I have NO issues with at the edges, at 2.5% is workable and if you try going below that is tolerable but you'll know is there.

I'll agree with you, I think besides getting the overscan reduced you get a more detailed sharper image.

Well worth the effort.

Cool to know. 3% with no edge problems would be excellent, IMO, and as low as I think I need to go.

Now, to find the time to do all this stuff.....hoping soon.

Greetings,

I did the second round of 51F59A shimming last night and tonight. In the process I lifted the CRT assembly a total of 1-7/8"" from the factory at-rest position. In performing the shimming procedure the first time I'd lifted the assembly 1.25" and stopped there only because there are three sets of CRT wires that are tight and didn't want to pull them any further. In looking at the back of the set however, I noticed a couple days ago that the wires are in harnesses and if removed from the those harnesses you can get more slack wire to lift the CRT assembly further. So I loosened the wires and shimmed up to a total 1-7/8". I wanted to go a little further but there is an obstruction in the light box - there's a couple long skinny cones that protrude forward from the back of the plastic light box shell. That interference starts 1-7/8" above the factory at rest position of the CRT assembly. So 1-7/8" is all one can get with this model.

This set always caused grief for me because I could not get convergence to lay nice on the far left edge of the screen. Green wasn't too bad, with Red and Blue jockeying for which one is worse. Shimming up to 1.25" helped the left edge convergence somewhat and raising beyond that helped more, so now I can see noticeable improvement in left edge convergence performance. After the set cools down I'll turn it on to check the convergence again, but I expect it should be nicely improved and more consistent.

I have a convergence template for this model and set the geometry to the template after both shimming procedures. Also in the signal loop I have a Lumagen HDP processor which assists with overscan correction. This is a pretty good combination because using both I can get about 1% overscan on all sides combined with using more of the CRT face per Mr. Bob's shimming procedure. All-in-all it's a winning combination. Even not using the Lumagen would still result in a better image due to the increased CRT face used. I do recommend using a template or string method to set geometry after a shimming operation is done.

Overall image detail is increased. It just seems more watchable for lack of a better word. It's a pain to do shimming, but there is a reward for the effort! Based on my experience if convergence is troublesome on the left edge of the screen shimming may provide some relief.

Regards

Afterreading Summit's post - a question for fellow shimming modders (what a strange term).

Post - shimming....what have been your results w/ geometry after the CRTS are raised?

SInce my F59 was reduced to just under 4% w/o shims, I plan to of course return the set to factory levels first (I still have a 51F59A screen jig,which I plan to use for the first step). Once back to OOB levels, then I will raise the CRTS

Once raised, what kind of geo errors are you seeing/fixing? It is DCAM grid-wide or mainly just some straightening out of the edges?

If any of you did this on a 51", and used the "string method" to correct geo after theshims were added...please let me know the dimensions you used post-shims.

Afterreading Summit's post - a question for fellow shimming modders (what a strange term).

Post - shimming....what have been your results w/ geometry after the CRTS are raised?

SInce my F59 was reduced to just under 4% w/o shims, I plan to of course return the set to factory levels first (I still have a 51F59A screen jig,which I plan to use for the first step). Once back to OOB levels, then I will raise the CRTS

Once raised, what kind of geo errors are you seeing/fixing? It is DCAM grid-wide or mainly just some straightening out of the edges?

If any of you did this on a 51", and used the "string method" to correct geo after theshims were added...please let me know the dimensions you used post-shims.

Following Michael's lead (LastButNotLeast) I used the standard template and reduced it by 1.8% vertically and horizontally; which probably needs to be 1.8% vertically and 1.5% horizontally to get a perfect circle.

I don't think you need to go to the standard pattern first, if you going to shim it, just do it and adjust via the string technique. Another pitfall of mine; make sure you measure right, if not you'll be taping and retaping string for quite a while. After you are close and covergence looks good you can go to adjust geo to a perfect circle.

Here is an illustration of the string in place... if you go back a few pages Michael has a pic where you can see the string clearly.

http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm148/CastilloLeo/Shimming/shimming050.jpg

Tweaking grayscale should not affect the image structure at all. The blue defocusing could affect the structure, and redoing the centering mags can affect the astigmatism alignment.

But grayscale, altering cuts and drives? Why would that affect your convergence?


b

I figured as much.

Afterreading Summit's post - a question for fellow shimming modders (what a strange term).

Post - shimming....what have been your results w/ geometry after the CRTS are raised?

SInce my F59 was reduced to just under 4% w/o shims, I plan to of course return the set to factory levels first (I still have a 51F59A screen jig,which I plan to use for the first step). Once back to OOB levels, then I will raise the CRTS

Once raised, what kind of geo errors are you seeing/fixing? It is DCAM grid-wide or mainly just some straightening out of the edges?

If any of you did this on a 51", and used the "string method" to correct geo after theshims were added...please let me know the dimensions you used post-shims.

I had the speed bump effects. Mostly midway out from center. Upon measuring it was obvious. I have fixed it the best I can without the striings. No time yet. I do have slight feathering on a few edges but not all.

I have yet to try this on mine, but I want the circles used in the CBS and ABC logos to be perfect, then compare that with the DVE circle. Would be kinda bad if we all got Joe Kane's test pattern perfect on our sets and found that it didn't match real world circles...

Real world material is what we want to be right, ultimately, that's the only purpose for test patterns in the first place...


:p


b

Greetings,

Thanks to Owen and Mr. Bob for promoting this procedure. After shimming up the CRT assembly of our 51F59A 1-7/8"" above the factory at-rest position the convergence on the left hand edge of our Hit is much better aligned. Also there's a noticeable increase in picture detail and 3D effect!

Here are some screen shots:
Hitachi DCAM
http://i655.photobucket.com/albums/uu272/summit_hdtv/_DSC2512.jpg

Overscan (with Lumagen assist) The smudge was on the camera lens!
http://i655.photobucket.com/albums/uu272/summit_hdtv/_DSC2509.jpg

Circles!
http://i655.photobucket.com/albums/uu272/summit_hdtv/_DSC2503.jpg

Hatch
http://i655.photobucket.com/albums/uu272/summit_hdtv/_DSC2507.jpg

Dots
http://i655.photobucket.com/albums/uu272/summit_hdtv/_DSC2506.jpg

Diagonal hatch (I like this pattern because it accentuates convergence errors)
http://i655.photobucket.com/albums/uu272/summit_hdtv/_DSC2504.jpg

And now some The Fifth Element screen shots!
Space
http://i655.photobucket.com/albums/uu272/summit_hdtv/_DSC2502.jpg

http://i655.photobucket.com/albums/uu272/summit_hdtv/_DSC2498.jpg

http://i655.photobucket.com/albums/uu272/summit_hdtv/_DSC2500.jpg

http://i655.photobucket.com/albums/uu272/summit_hdtv/_DSC2496.jpg

Monk
http://i655.photobucket.com/albums/uu272/summit_hdtv/_DSC2494.jpg

I'll open up the front of the set and snap some pics of the completed shimmed CRT assembly.

Regards

I guess I need to go up from 1.25 to 2" then. You dont seem to have that top/bottom issue the rest of us had on geo.

Actually, my original o'scan reduction involved shriking the DCAM grid size via the H/V sizing pots (H/V voltage). That got me to the 4%-ish I have now. Job led to the obvious goe issues & still has that feathering -slight as it is.

Just thinking that by reseting conv/o'scan/geo back to factory/screen jig levels gives me both the proper operating voltage hitting the conv ICs as well as a geo-perfect starting point (which will be @ around 5.5% o'scan).

After that is when I would then do the shimming, which according to Summit's results on the same model as me, 2" of shim is good.

Now Summit, you are also using your Lumagen to further reduce the oscan levels?

Greetings,

Thanks to Owen and Mr. Bob for promoting this procedure. After shimming up the CRT assembly of our 51F59A 2" above the factory at-rest position the convergence on the left hand edge of our Hit is much better aligned. Also there's a noticeable increase in picture detail and 3D effect!

Here are some screen shots:

Circles!
http://i655.photobucket.com/albums/uu272/summit_hdtv/_DSC2503.jpg

Hatch
http://i655.photobucket.com/albums/uu272/summit_hdtv/_DSC2507.jpg

I'll open up the front of the set and snap some pics of the completed shimmed CRT assembly.

Regards

Did you re do mechanical/electro focus after covergence?

Nice work!!!

I guess I need to go up from 1.25 to 2" then. You dont seem to have that top/bottom issue the rest of us had on geo.

Hi Mustang68,

After reading your comment I connected my signal generator as a direct input to the Hitachi. Again with the geometry to template I was able to center the image with the Hitachi SM controls and not run into the top blanking issue.

When running the overscan down before (shimming) however I did run into the top blanking interference. I'm not sure at what point of overscan the blanking comes into effect. Regardless the extra 3/4" shim will help.

Regards

Superleo,

Yes I redid mechanical focus and geometry post shim. Per Mr. Bob electronic focus was not necessary.

Regards

Actually, my original o'scan reduction involved shriking the DCAM grid size via the H/V sizing pots (H/V voltage). That got me to the 4%-ish I have now. Job led to the obvious goe issues & still has that feathering -slight as it is.

Just thinking that by reseting conv/o'scan/geo back to factory/screen jig levels gives me both the proper operating voltage hitting the conv ICs as well as a geo-perfect starting point (which will be @ around 5.5% o'scan).

After that is when I would then do the shimming, which according to Summit's results on the same model as me, 2" of shim is good.

Now Summit, you are also using your Lumagen to further reduce the oscan levels?

Hi jwebb1970,

Yes the Lumagen drives down the overscan. I set the geometry to template to lay down the geometry then use the Lumagen to drive down the overscan. It really is a great combination.
I'm kind of a nut for overscan...

Regards

Since I lack a Lumagen, my hope is that via 2" shims only, I can get at least 3% or slightly less o'scan w/o geo/edge issues.

Just a couple a weeks ago I was looking into getting a Lumagen, and I thought that after the shimming I didn't need one ... final bid was $750.00. man that is a good price!!!

I guess I'll keep and eve on one. See if another opportunity like this comes up again.

Hi jwebb1970,

Yes the Lumagen drives down the overscan. I set the geometry to template to lay down the geometry then use the Lumagen to drive down the overscan. It really is a great combination.
I'm kind of a nut for overscan...

Regards

I'd love to have the non overscanned image and perfect grayscale that a Lumagen affords. It would cost more than I paid for my set, but I'd still do it.

The Lumagen is great as a short cut. It allows for taking in of the image oversize we call overscan, allowing what was formerly not shown to show, without going into the sm to do it. And all the resultant foofraw of having to totally redo the geo/conv paradigm. It's a great labor saving device if you really don't want to do much work.

However, if the goal is to have the most amount of CRT phosphor face area in play, thus optimizing to the nth degree your set's pixel density and thus both horizontal and vertical resolution the best way possible - mechanically - it is totally unneeded.

Expanding the image to effectively fill the screen, allowing SOME tiny bit of overscan to exist (which is essential in ALL CRT tech) is all that's needed, then taking in whatever's left with the shimming process. Expanding the image, not shrinking it.

And you don't need a Lumagen for that. You need the shimming process, plus your set's sm h and w - and centering - controls.

Again, it's a great instrument and good for things very few other instruments are capable of. I respect the Lumagen very highly.

But for this discussion we're talking strictly the image STRUCTURE - not its colorations nor its grayscale - and for that STRUCTURE discussion it's just a shortcut and nothing more.

If you want the real thing as far as overscan goes, it is completely unneeded, and won't do you any good aside from being an alternate way of sizing your master image - to bigger or smaller - in a way that doesn't necessitate lengthy g/c corrections.

When used in conjunction with the shimming process there will be lengthy geo/conv corrections needed anyway, so when all is said and done it really won't help you STRUCTURALLY.


b

The Lumagen is great as a short cut. It allows for taking in of the image oversize we call overscan, allowing what was formerly not shown to show, without going into the sm to do it. And all the resultant foofraw of having to totally redo the geo/conv paradigm. It's a great labor saving device if you really don't want to do much work.

However, if the goal is to have the most amount of CRT phosphor face area in play, thus optimizing to the nth degree your set's pixel density and thus both horizontal and vertical resolution the best way possible - mechanically - it is totally unneeded.

Expanding the image to effectively fill the screen, allowing SOME tiny bit of overscan to exist (which is essential in ALL CRT tech) is all that's needed, then taking in whatever's left with the shimming process. Expanding the image, not shrinking it.

And you don't need a Lumagen for that. You need the shimming process, plus your set's sm h and w - and centering - controls.

But for this discussion we're talking strictly the image STRUCTURE - not its colorations nor its grayscale - and for that STRUCTURE discussion it's just a shortcut and nothing more.

If you want the real thing as far as overscan goes, it is completely unneeded, and won't do you any good aside from being an alternate way of sizing your master image - to bigger or smaller - in a way that doesn't necessitate lengthy g/c corrections.

When used in conjunction with the shimming process there will be lengthy geo/conv corrections needed anyway, so it really won't help you.


b

I have to disagree ever so slightly.

The only way to get an image with 0% overscan, well not the only way, but one way, is with a Luamgen. It can't be obtained within the controls of the set itself. I was careful to say oversanned image and not just overscan. The Lumagen will take the entire image and putput the entire image on your viewable area, shiming or SM controls alone can't do that and still have a watcahable picture. It's the processes we've been talking about, plus something like a Lumagen that can get us to 0% overscan. I would imagine having the entire image on as much viewable phosphor area with no deleterious effects is a goal we would all want to attain.

I have to disagree ever so slightly.

The only way to get an image with 0% overscan, well not the only way, but one way, is with a Luamgen. It can't be obtained within the controls of the set itself. I was careful to say oversanned image and not just overscan. The Lumagen will take the entire image and putput the entire image on your viewable area, shiming or SM controls alone can't do that and still have a watcahable picture. It's the processes we've been talking about, plus something like a Lumagen that can get us to 0% overscan. I would imagine having the entire image on as much viewable phosphor area with no deleterious effects is a goal we would all want to attain.

How is a Lum going to get us past the blanking? If a pic edge is just not there, it can't be recovered by a Lum.

:confused:

b

How is a Lum going to get us past the blanking? If a pic edge is just not there, it can't be recovered by a Lum.

:confused:

b

You're correct, but it's goal isn't to get past the blanking, the set should be able to do that. All the Lumagen will do is put all of the image on the available, viewable phosphor. The lumagen is def not a cure to all of our CRT ills(not that we have tons), but it can definitely help fill in some of the gaps in CRT and RP CRT tech.

All the Lumagen will do is put all of the image on the available, viewable phosphor.

I can do that with my h and w settings.

The blanking has nothing to do with the edges of the set. It has to with what is allowed to be seen. H and w and centering move those edges to where I need them to be for highest phosphor availability.

How is the Lum going to get me better off than my simply setting my h and w - and shimming - to where everything is available to the screen that can be shown?

I could get 0% on the bottom but not the top, due to the top's blanking. They have to be at least roughly equilateral, so I can't go too much past the lowest number, even where the higher number is available.

I can get the sides down to 2% before the blanking kicks in there, but that would show my feathering way too much. So I have to rare it back to 3%. This is with the shimming set up to be effectively using all the really available phosphor area on each gun. Pix of that soon -

The bottom is the only place 0% actually shows.

How will the Lum help me do any better?


b

I can do that with my h and w settings.

The blanking has nothing to do with the edges of the set. It has to with what is allowed to be seen. H and w and centering move those edges to where I need them to be for highest phosphor availability.

How is the Lum going to get me better off than my simply setting my h and w - and shimming - to where everything is available to the screen that can be shown?

I could get 0% on the bottom but not the top, due to the top's blanking. They have to be at least roughly equilateral, so I can't go too much past the lowest number, even where the higher number is available.

I can get the sides down to 2% before the blanking kicks in there, but that would show my feathering way too much. So I have to rare it back to 3%. This is with the shimming set up to be effectively using all the really available phosphor area on each gun. Pix of that soon -

The bottom is the only place 0% actually shows.

How will the Lum help me do any better?


b

If you can get 0% overscan on all sides with no feathering or any other geometry issues, the Lumagen won't help you as far as overscan goes, but I haven't heard anyone that has said they can do that with no picture degradation at all. The Lumagen can put all of the picture on from all of your sources on whatever viewable phosphor you have. I know of no way to do that with no loss, entirely in the set. But I can always be wrong.

If you can get 0% overscan on all sides with no feathering or any other geometry issues, the Lumagen won't help you as far as overscan goes, but I haven't heard anyone that has said they can do that with no picture degradation at all. The Lumagen can put all of the picture on from all of your sources on whatever viewable phosphor you have. I know of no way to do that with no loss, entirely in the set. But I can always be wrong.


So reducing the pic size in the Lum till there's space around all the edges, then expanding it out again in the set with h and w regs so it fills the screen properly again, allows for no feathering at the sides? I gotta see that...

Whenever h and w are used to size an image, I think we're going to be stuck with feathering, just due to the characteristics of CRT. But try it and let us know...

Again, if you are not doing the shimming and want convenience, the Lum would be an asset. If you're doing the shimming op, it's not essential and for its price...well you really need to want one for other purposes to make that investment worthwhile, IMHO.


If your set has some years on it and as such has the aging footprint cut into its phosphors already, this entire discussion is off the table. In that case you can't expand your image to fill the CRT faces anyway, without horrendous darkening/lightening transitions at the edges being visible whenever you have a high light-level pic on your screen, esp. a fade to white.

The only way you can do shimming at that point is by mechanically aiming the red and blue guns inward rather than trying to move the images across your screen, for for the essential recentering of the red and blue that the shimming mod requires. And not even think about expanding the image at all, to get better use of the CRT faces. Can't do that without the aging footprint showing.

Of course you might get lucky and find you don't need to expand the image, that it already fills the CRT faces just fine. It's still a good mod even in that case, does a marvelous job of giving you a more depthy, more crystal clear image, as many here have already found.

Just takes mechanical aiming of the red and blue guns rather than raster aiming, and keeping the image where it currently is on each CRT face.

The Lum can't help on that score.

It does, however, provide a delightful lessening of the workload on the sm portion of your shimming op, whether it's sm-only or shimming with sm mop-up. I'll definitely grant you that!

:p


b

Greetings,

As promised I snapped some pics showing the installation. I also took the opportunity to peer into the CRTs after the convergence was relaxed (pushed outward) after the last shimming operation. The result was very interesting. Too bad I didn't have before pics of the CRT face... But after raising the CRT assembly up 1-7/8" all the CRT face is used. I see no room for increased shimming as far as the CRT is concerned give how it looks now. On the 51F59A 1-7/8"" of shimming is the max allowed to utilize all the CRT face given my overscan pot settings, which were altered from OOB settings. I reduced both the H and V overscan pots earlier, but raised them back after the first round of shimming. I don't know how they are relative to OOB condition now, but I believe they are close to the factory position.

Note my earlier posts read 2" of shim, which is better said to be 1-7/8"! These posts have been edited for accuracy. Given the cone as an interference component, it's a curious coincidence that rising the CRT assembly up to the bottom of the cone yields the most CRT face usage in my situation! It's funny how things work out sometimes...

Maximizing the CRT face(area) used is the goal of shimming. Using all the CRT face yields the maximum amount of detail delivered to the final image. In film photography the larger the size of the negative, the lower the degree of enlargement, hence a more detailed print. The CRT face analogy is the negative in film photography. The more CRT face used, the lower the amount of enlargement, hence a better image on the lenticular screen.

It was plain to see after seeing Owen's and Mr. Bob's work and comments that RPCRT Mfrs did not optimize this particular characteristic of their design. It's strange to me because they can arrange for the CRT assembly to be raised as part of the design stage of the RPTV and this costs them (next to) nothing. They still must put the CRT assembly somewhere, so why not raise it another inch or so? Maybe they are concerned about tolerances or maybe they're concerned about cost and weight of the extra wood used to raise the CRT assembly - I don't know. Maybe it's a combination of both. Regardless it seems like such an easy design feature to just do! There's no extra labor or time involved like for instance to get spot on grayscale etc.

Any way here are some post shimming pics of the RGB CRT face. As you look at the pics, imagine the pattern (in this case a 30 IRE gray field) should ideally extend all the way to the right and left hand edge of the CRT face. As the CRT is more squarish there will be lots of unused CRT face at the top and bottom. This is especially apparent in the Green CRT pics. The CRT runs out of room only at the right and left hand sides. Look for the hard edge and compare to where the RBG image ends. In some cases you'll see a generous radius around the CRT. That generous radius is the corner of the CRT face itself. You can use that as a reference for the hard edge that stops the CRT face. This generous radius is shown well in the second Green (Green CRT RH edge) picture.

The bright Red, Green and Blue radius is the lens that covers each CRT. Please disregard this bright band. It's the action below the lens that's the focus of this discussion.

My camera has a macro mode, but I could not quite get a great focus, plus I'm sure there's camera movement. In relative terms Red was the most optimized, then Green and then Blue for what it's worth. In fact, all three guns were maxed out or nearly maxed out as a result of shimming.

You'll need to use your imagination as these pics look a little otherworldly, but here goes:
Green CRT left hand (LH) edge
http://i655.photobucket.com/albums/uu272/summit_hdtv/GreenCRTLHedge.jpg

Green CRT right hand (RH) edge
http://i655.photobucket.com/albums/uu272/summit_hdtv/GreenCRTrighthandedge.jpg

Red CRT LH edge (Note the LH edge is shown as the bottom edge of this pic!)
http://i655.photobucket.com/albums/uu272/summit_hdtv/RedCRDRHEdge.jpg

Red CRT RH edge (Note the RH edge is shown as the top edge of this pic!)
http://i655.photobucket.com/albums/uu272/summit_hdtv/RedCRDLHEdge.jpg

Blue CRT LH edge
http://i655.photobucket.com/albums/uu272/summit_hdtv/BlueCRTLHedge.jpg

Blue CRT RH edge (RH edge shown angled from upper left to lower right of pic)
http://i655.photobucket.com/albums/uu272/summit_hdtv/BlueCRTRHedge.jpg

Here are some pics of the mechanical shims:

Cone (interference) protruding from the back of the CRT light box forward. Right hand side...

http://i655.photobucket.com/albums/uu272/summit_hdtv/_DSC2551.jpg

Front edge of CRT assembly
http://i655.photobucket.com/albums/uu272/summit_hdtv/_DSC2549.jpg

Front edge of CRT assembly(another view)
http://i655.photobucket.com/albums/uu272/summit_hdtv/_DSC2553.jpg

Right, front corner of CRT assembly close up
http://i655.photobucket.com/albums/uu272/summit_hdtv/_DSC2558.jpg

Left, front corner of CRT assembly close up
http://i655.photobucket.com/albums/uu272/summit_hdtv/_DSC2554.jpg

Red CRT plus interference cone on left edge of CRT assembly
http://i655.photobucket.com/albums/uu272/summit_hdtv/_DSC2552.jpg


Regards!

You beat me! :D I have had these shots in the can for weeks, looking for a good time to do it. I have had these shots in the can for weeks, looking for a good time to do it. Keep in mind this can only be done on virgin-level phosphors, with NO aging footprint. Or on freshly regunned sets.

Will start with these -


Green sides - not bad, perfectly centered

http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/3268/32209randbrecenteringop.jpg[/URL]

http://img50.imageshack.us/img50/7299/32209randbrecenteringopd.jpg[/URL]

But not fully utilizing CRT face

http://img50.imageshack.us/img50/3268/32209randbrecenteringop.jpg[/URL]

http://img50.imageshack.us/img50/2646/32209randbrecenteringoph.jpg[/URL]

http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/3268/32209randbrecenteringop.jpg[/URL]

http://img50.imageshack.us/img50/7553/32209randbrecenteringophvs.jpg[/URL]

Red and blue - not so good. Very badly centered -

centermost section - almost at the edge

http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/4951/32209randbrecenteringopg.jpg[/URL]

You can see the edge of the CRT face itself in the background as it goes upward from the edge of the image on it

http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/7255/32209randbrecenteringopf.jpg[/URL]

outermost section - way far away from the edge

http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/3268/32209randbrecenteringop.jpg[/URL]



blue at centermost edge, almost touching it

http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/3867/32209randbrecenteringopa.jpg[/URL]

outermost edge with WAY more space

http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/2646/32209randbrecenteringoph.jpg[/URL]

Unlike the green gun, R and B VERY badly centered.

This was what I found several weeks ago. I knew I could not let this stand...


:eek:


b

Here are some pics of the mechanical shims:

Cone (interference) protruding from the back of the CRT light box forward. Right hand side...


Great job! And thanks for the fabulous documentation.
So here's a new question:
Anyone know what those "cones" are for?
Think they can be cut off?

Red and blue - not so good. Very badly centered -

You can see the edge of the CRT face itself in the background as it goes upward from the edge of the image on it

outermost section - way far away from the edge


blue at centermost edge, almost touching it


outermost edge with WAY more space

Unlike the green gun, R and B VERY badly centered.

This was what I found several weeks ago. I knew I could not let this stand...


:eek:


b

Hi Bob,

Wow! Yes your green doesn't look too bad. Certainly the best behaved of the bunch. It figures because it's the center gun. How Mits aligned (or misaligned) Red and Blue is beyond me. It's just a design thing and doing it right costs them nothing in production. Unless they used the hardware from another Mits chassis to save a couple pennies... The amazing thing is it looks like they took all the optical/mechanical potential of this design and dumbed it down big time. Ugh.

Regards

My sentiments exactly. I know they used this same array on the 65" version, which explains some of why these outer guns were so badly aimed, but 4 well placed shims on the aiming of just ONE of the sets of the guns between the 2 versions would have taken what - 10 extra minutes of production time??? Probably more like 5...

Overscan starting point, with badly centered r and b -

http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/3268/32209randbrecenteringop.jpg[/URL]

Hwid 37 in sm, vertical taken in a bit to make the circle a true circle via yardstick

http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/3268/32209randbrecenteringop.jpg[/URL]

hwid 41, to fill CRT face to max allowable on CRT faces

http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/5020/32209randbrecenteringopm.jpg[/URL]

vhgt 36 starting value

http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/4490/32209randbrecenteringopq.jpg[/URL]

40 ending value, expanding pic vertically on CRT face. Pic now fits the entire usable area on each CRT face.

http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/3268/32209randbrecenteringop.jpg[/URL]

Great job! And thanks for the fabulous documentation.
So here's a new question:
Anyone know what those "cones" are for?
Think they can be cut off?

If someone is familiar with plastics injection molding design, maybe they can comment on the cones. Maybe they're there as necessary for the injection molding operations. In my opinion the cones can be sacrificed, but hesitated to say so earlier (and now). I do not want to make this recommendation while not knowing the reason the cones exist. I just can't see why they make any difference in the final image...

Regards

O'scan redux restored after adding another 3/4" of shimming, to 3" total shim, red corrected on centering, blue not yet

http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/2802/32209randbrecenteringopu.jpg[/URL]

grid version

http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/7088/32209randbrecenteringopl.jpg[/URL]

red and blue both centered, but uncorrected. Shimming has recaptured the o'scan redux from before, after the expansion of the images on my CRT faces ADDED overscan to gather more CRT face area

http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/3268/32209randbrecenteringop.jpg[/URL]

but notice how much work now has to be redone! curves at the edges, keysoning errors, nothing straight anymore...

http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/4386/32209randbrecenteringopj.jpg[/URL]

this is what 480 looks like totally uncorrected after the add'l shimming

http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/1593/32209randbrecenteringopp.jpg[/URL]

and this is what program material looked like uncorrected after the shimming, esp noticeable at the side edges...

http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/7251/32209randbrecenteringopb.jpg[/URL]

I then set about to re-aim the red and blue guns, then correct everything.

No pix yet of that, will get back to you soon -

Glad you like my pretty pictures...

:D


b

So reducing the pic size in the Lum till there's space around all the edges, then expanding it out again in the set with h and w regs so it fills the screen properly again, allows for no feathering at the sides? I gotta see that...

Whenever h and w are used to size an image, I think we're going to be stuck with feathering, just due to the characteristics of CRT. But try it and let us know...

Again, if you are not doing the shimming and want convenience, the Lum would be an asset. If you're doing the shimming op, it's not essential and for its price...well you really need to want one for other purposes to make that investment worthwhile, IMHO.


If your set has some years on it and as such has the aging footprint cut into its phosphors already, this entire discussion is off the table. In that case you can't expand your image to fill the CRT faces anyway, without horrendous darkening/lightening transitions at the edges being visible whenever you have a high light-level pic on your screen, esp. a fade to white.

The only way you can do shimming at that point is by mechanically aiming the red and blue guns inward rather than trying to move the images across your screen, for for the essential recentering of the red and blue that the shimming mod requires. And not even think about expanding the image at all, to get better use of the CRT faces. Can't do that without the aging footprint showing.

Of course you might get lucky and find you don't need to expand the image, that it already fills the CRT faces just fine. It's still a good mod even in that case, does a marvelous job of giving you a more depthy, more crystal clear image, as many here have already found.

Just takes mechanical aiming of the red and blue guns rather than raster aiming, and keeping the image where it currently is on each CRT face.

The Lum can't help on that score.

It does, however, provide a delightful lessening of the workload on the sm portion of your shimming op, whether it's sm-only or shimming with sm mop-up. I'll definitely grant you that!

:p


b

I'm not arguing the value of shimming at all. What I'm saying is that shimming can't get you where you ultimately want to be. If part of the reason we're shimming is to see more of the program material, then the Lumagen is the answer we're looking for. No matter what you do within your set, you'll never get 0% overscan. Never. The Lumagen can get you that. It has nothing to do with feathering or re-aiming the guns. It's sole advantage as it relates to overscan is being able to see the entire image on screen, something you cannot do in the set alone. If you want to see the entire image, after you do the shimming, the Lumagen is your friend. I don't have one, but I'd love to.

I'm not arguing the value of shimming at all. What I'm saying is that shimming can't get you where you ultimately want to be. If part of the reason we're shimming is to see more of the program material, then the Lumagen is the answer we're looking for. No matter what you do within your set, you'll never get 0% overscan. Never. The Lumagen can get you that. It has nothing to do with feathering or re-aiming the guns. It's sole advantage as it relates to overscan is being able to see the entire image on screen, something you cannot do in the set alone. If you want to see the entire image, after you do the shimming, the Lumagen is your friend. I don't have one, but I'd love to.

Hm.

I've been assuming that the blanking is going on inside the source, not at the display. If so the fixed pixels sets would not get out to zero either. If they are, on the same source units as I am using, then of course it's being done in the display.

I have seen the AVIA grids go all the way out to zero with plenty to spare on laptops. But in my LR sys I have no way of knowing if my display is where the blanking is, or if the source is it.

If it's in the display and not the source, then you're right. ;) The Lum and other even more expensive scalers would be the only way around it.

Can you give me some test to find out? I use a Panny BDP for my DVE o'scan grid.


b

Images recentered and expanded out to fill the available phosphor face. My goal is not to achieve as low as 2%, that's really not necessary, so making the images almost hit the edges won't affect what I DO want to see, which is in from that a bit -


http://img149.imageshack.us/img149/3268/32209randbrecenteringop.jpg[/URL]

http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/3268/32209randbrecenteringop.jpg[/URL]

http://img149.imageshack.us/img149/7299/32209randbrecenteringopd.jpg[/URL]

http://img149.imageshack.us/img149/4490/32209randbrecenteringopq.jpg[/URL]

http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/9031/32209randbrecenteringopn.jpg[/URL]

http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/7088/32209randbrecenteringopl.jpg[/URL]

http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/7255/32209randbrecenteringopf.jpg[/URL]

Green turret/lens. Notice that the screw ends from down below are the same on both sides. Actually on all 4 sides. Its aiming was excellent and as such was not altered. Wish the other 2 guns had been that good!

You can see how many times my optical focus has been altered, due to the multiple shimmings. I mark where I start each and every time I do the Cantilever Technique to my set -

http://img149.imageshack.us/img149/9344/32209randbrecenteringopt.jpg[/URL]

Between the turrets, whose screws didn't move much

Between Blue and green guns

http://img149.imageshack.us/img149/4386/32209randbrecenteringopj.jpg[/URL]

Red and green guns
http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/3268/32209randbrecenteringop.jpg[/URL]
Red outside screw ends, showing how much I had to loosen up those screws to make the outside of the CRT come down enough to tilt it properly. They started out with the same amount of exposure as the green screw ends

http://img149.imageshack.us/img149/1673/32209randbrecenteringopqyl.jpg[/URL]

Blue - almost nothing left! Quite a bit of tilt, to re-aim the red and blue properly. Put glue on them to make the screws stay, like the LockTite we used to use for immobilzing tape heads after azimuth alignment -

http://img237.imageshack.us/img237/3268/32209randbrecenteringop.jpg[/URL]


4th thickness of shim added, to make 3" total for my 73". Had to use 4" bolts!

Nobody ever said it had to look pretty...

:D




http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/1593/32209randbrecenteringopp.jpg[/URL]

http://img237.imageshack.us/img237/1750/32209randbrecenteringopv.jpg[/URL]

I'm not arguing the value of shimming at all. What I'm saying is that shimming can't get you where you ultimately want to be. If part of the reason we're shimming is to see more of the program material, then the Lumagen is the answer we're looking for. No matter what you do within your set, you'll never get 0% overscan. Never. The Lumagen can get you that. It has nothing to do with feathering or re-aiming the guns. It's sole advantage as it relates to overscan is being able to see the entire image on screen, something you cannot do in the set alone. If you want to see the entire image, after you do the shimming, the Lumagen is your friend. I don't have one, but I'd love to.

I agree with you in that I saw no way to get the overscan down to even 2% or so on our set via DCAM or altering the h and v overscan controls. The DCAM does not tolerate being pushed. Geometry errors like bent lines at the edges and finicky convergence result.

Adding shims helps, but I did not concentrate on that path alone. Rather I used the Lumagen to drive down the overscan once the shims were in place and the basic geometry was reined in.

Regards

I agree with you in that I saw no way to get the overscan down to even 2% or so on our set via DCAM or altering the h and v overscan controls. The DCAM does not tolerate being pushed. Geometry errors like bent lines at the edges and finicky convergence result.

Adding shims helps, but I did not concentrate on that path alone. Rather I used the Lumagen to drive down the overscan once the shims were in place and the basic geometry was reined in.

Regards

My point exactly.

If you want to get as much of the program material on screen as you can, something like the Lumagen is the way to do that. The set itself just won't allow it. Shimming is what you do to get it as close as possible and also to get as much resolution used as you can, then bring in the Lumagen to finish the job with the overscan, much like you would the grayscale with the Lumagen.

Wow,

Bob and Summit, you too Lordcloud. This is some of the most technical, interesting stuff I've seen here in a while. Great documentation Summit and Bob. Way beyond my skill level right now. Really for me 2% on the sides and 3 on top/bottom is fine with me since I was 5 before. I'm really interested more in pixel density and thereby resolution. That is why I did the shim. I would like to get Geo better and think the string method is in the near future for me. Of course as you guys know with me I could be knee deep in my set tomorrow doing everything described in these incredible post.

Psycho tweak,mod and shimmers forever!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ok how does this sound to everyone:

Contrast: 48%
Brightness: 70%
Color: 70%
Tint: A bit into the red
Sharpness: 68%
Color Temp: High
Black Enhancement: Middle
Edge Enhancement: High

It seems a little dark because of the contrast but I guess its because I'm not used to it, but I know it shouldn't be anymore than that, right? The factory settings had it all the way to 100% I left the Color Temperature, Black Enhancement, and Edge Enhancement the way it was originally because I don't really know what they mean. It does seem to be a better picture in some other ways. Especially when I'm playing Xbox.

Also is there a big advantage to having it professionally calibrated? I've seen it on the Best Buy website for like $300. Anyone have experience with them?

Ok how does this sound to everyone:

Contrast: 48%
Brightness: 70%
Color: 70%
Tint: A bit into the red
Sharpness: 68%

It seems a little dark because of the contrast but I guess its because I'm not used to it, but I know it shouldn't be anymore than that, right? The factory settings had it all the way to 100% It does seem to be a better picture in some other ways. Especially when I'm playing Xbox.

Also is there a big advantage to having it professionally calibrated? I've seen it on the Best Buy website for like $300. Anyone have experience with them?


Br seems high, but has to be set for optimum viewing of shadow details. If that's 70% then you're there.

If you set your room lighting to match that of movie theaters, your set should project more than enough light and then some. I am not a fan of a dim picture, and neither are my clients. With movie-grade room lighting, we don't have to be.

Calibration: if yours is a CRT RPTV, we are getting harder and harder to find. If you can find a highly qualified one near you you're lucky. They usually have to be flown in these days. You won't find them at your local ISF trained facility, like BB or Magnolia. CRT is a completely different animal from fixed pixel, and it takes special knowledge to get them right on the all-important image STRUCTURE.

There's no substitute for one who not only knows ISF, but knows triple-gun CRT as well. Dazzling pictures tell the story every day, just surf this thread a bit, and others like it...


;)

b

Ok how does this sound to everyone:

Contrast: 48%
Brightness: 70%
Color: 70%
Tint: A bit into the red
Sharpness: 68%
Color Temp: High
Black Enhancement: Middle
Edge Enhancement: High

Also is there a big advantage to having it professionally calibrated? I've seen it on the Best Buy website for like $300. Anyone have experience with them?

Railroad5,

Welcome! Color temp = MED is a better choice, though STD is just as good. Turn off Black Enhancement and turn off Edge Enhancement.

See if you can get a copy of Avia Guide to Home Theater or Digital Video Essentials and go through the guided tutorial. That will give you some insight into the other adjustments.

Professional calibration benefits most if not all displays. As Bob says CRT has other calibration needs than for instance plasma or LCD. Find someone familiar with CRT calibration.

Regards

Ok how does this sound to everyone:

Contrast: 48%
Brightness: 70%
Color: 70%
Tint: A bit into the red
Sharpness: 68%
Color Temp: High
Black Enhancement: Middle
Edge Enhancement: High

It seems a little dark because of the contrast but I guess its because I'm not used to it, but I know it shouldn't be anymore than that, right? The factory settings had it all the way to 100% I left the Color Temperature, Black Enhancement, and Edge Enhancement the way it was originally because I don't really know what they mean. It does seem to be a better picture in some other ways. Especially when I'm playing Xbox.

Also is there a big advantage to having it professionally calibrated? I've seen it on the Best Buy website for like $300. Anyone have experience with them?

Welcome.

I would def say get your hands on either AVIA or DVE, as your sharpness, brightness, and contrast are high in comparison to the three seets I've done. To give you an idea, of course all my settings except contrast are at 50%, my contrast is at 10% and is at 12 in the SM.

Fom there, try to read as much as you can on this thread, especially the earlier pages as they contain the meat and potatoes of getting your set as close as we can to optimum performance, without having someone like Mr. Bob do it for you.

You'll want to get your hands on some instrumentation to set grayscale or have a professional at the very least, do it for you. I say this becasue I have found that correct grayscale is the backbone of a good calibration. It also happens to be one of the things that's necessary but impossible to accurately do without instrumentation. After the grayscale is done, this thread has all of the info you'll need to get your set looking better than you imagined.

Railroad5,

Lordcloud is right on, read his three paragraphs very carefully because everything you could need is there to get started.

If you have a dvd burner on your computer and a Blu-ray or Hd-dvd player I also recommend this. I like this calibration dvd the best of all, and its FREE!!

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=948496

Ok how does this sound to everyone:

Contrast: 48%
Brightness: 70%
Color: 70%
Tint: A bit into the red
Sharpness: 68%
Color Temp: High
Black Enhancement: Middle
Edge Enhancement: High

It seems a little dark because of the contrast but I guess its because I'm not used to it, but I know it shouldn't be anymore than that, right? The factory settings had it all the way to 100% I left the Color Temperature, Black Enhancement, and Edge Enhancement the way it was originally because I don't really know what they mean. It does seem to be a better picture in some other ways. Especially when I'm playing Xbox.

Also is there a big advantage to having it professionally calibrated? I've seen it on the Best Buy website for like $300. Anyone have experience with them?

Here's my settings using AVIA and most of the service menu adjustments from this thread:

contrast: 30
brightness: 58
color: 53
sharpness: 45
color temp: STANDARD
all enhancements: OFF

Personally I don't have the money all at once for a professional calibration, so I've spent time here and learned things myself. It's more fun and the money can be used elsewhere in your system, imo. If you've never done adjustments beyond the "setup out of the box" on a tv before, get a copy of AVIA or DVE and start leaning, and read this thread from the beginning :D (edit: or just read lordcloud's post, like I should have)

You'll want to get your hands on some instrumentation to set grayscale or have a professional at the very least, do it for you. I say this becasue I have found that correct grayscale is the backbone of a good calibration. It also happens to be one of the things that's necessary but impossible to accurately do without instrumentation. After the grayscale is done, this thread has all of the info you'll need to get your set looking better than you imagined.

I know Mustang had asked about this before; but is the ColorVision Spyder 2 Express suitable for properly adjusting grayscale on these sets? It's really the only one in my price range, but I don't want to be wasting my money if it's junk.

Well, I did my sets with the spyder2, and I am very satisfied, for the price it beats the **** out of eyeballing. If its all you want to spend go for it. If its not to your liking keep all your packaging and put it on ebay, and be out maybe 10-15 dollars. Seems that the spyder2 biggest prob is measuring 20ire and lower but you can compensate for it by increasing the measure time with HCFR. However I think its a fact that the Hitachi's 20ire and lower are pretty much hard to adjust anyway without messing up the 30+ ire windows. So in my mind it was a fair trade off between price, and maybe hit or miss sensor deficiencies.

You can buy once cheaply and most likely be ok, or you can spend alittle more and get the eye-one. I'm keeping my spyder 2 couldn't be happier.

Well, I did my sets with the spyder2, and I am very satisfied, for the price it beats the **** out of eyeballing. If its all you want to spend go for it. If its not to your liking keep all your packaging and put it on ebay, and be out maybe 10-15 dollars. Seems that the spyder2 biggest prob is measuring 20ire and lower but you can compensate for it by increasing the measure time with HCFR. However I think its a fact that the Hitachi's 20ire and lower are pretty much hard to adjust anyway without messing up the 30+ ire windows. So in my mind it was a fair trade off between price, and maybe hit or miss sensor deficiencies.

You can buy once cheaply and most likely be ok, or you can spend alittle more and get the eye-one. I'm keeping my spyder 2 couldn't be happier.

Thanks for that update. I have been dealing with close but not good enough grayscale for a while. As you have probably read I am considering the Spyder2 and sometime next month I'm going to purchase it. I'm assuming it comes with the software already or is there supplemental software to be purchased?

Thanks for that update. I have been dealing with close but not good enough grayscale for a while. As you have probably read I am considering the Spyder2 and sometime next month I'm going to purchase it. I'm assuming it comes with the software already or is there supplemental software to be purchased?

It comes with software to do your computer monitors. For TV you can use colorHCFR (free software) or buy Calman.

I cant check it right now but in the spyder2 software there is a ****.dll that you have to copy from the spyder 2 program and paste inside the HCFR program to get the sensor to fire up with hcfr. Curt Palmes Grayscale for dummies tell you how. Its really simple to do this.

I don't want to get into a this sensor is better than that sensor but if you read the display calibration threads you can find folks who tested the various sensors and read and their conclusions.

Also I have seen posts with folks who have had problems with their eye-one too, not working or performing All I'm saying is read the posts and pick your poison.

Heck, in terms of accuracy, what about the dvd player that you are using for to play your calibration disk. How close is it to outputting standard?
If I use my Toshiba HD dvd player with AVS-709HD, the grayscale was one way. If I use my Samsung bd1500 with AVS-709 Bluray it comes out another way, as far as service menu setting in the HDTV.
If I use my Toshiba HD-dvd player and do my grayscale with component it, isnt the same with using DVI.
So they are all extremely close but not exactly the same.

Pick your poison again.

Seriously, whatever sensor you get, you will be Light Years Ahead of using your eyeballs. Unless you are Mr Bob or some of the other ISF'ers who frequent the AVS forum. They could prob do your grayscale with both eyes closed and both hands tied, and nail it.

I forgot to add and I may not be 100% right, but if you are going to shim your CRT's (havent done mine) and you have to do your convergence and manual focus and maybe electro focus over, because of this, I would wait to do the grayscale last. Do your grayscale after you get all the physical stuff first, because your grayscale is dependent upon everything else before it in the physical setup. After you set your color, check your grayscale again and then color again. It took a few run thru's until everything was honed in.

Please correct me if I am wrong here......

I forgot to add and I may not be 100% right, but if you are going to shim your CRT's (havent done mine) and you have to do your convergence and manual focus and maybe electro focus over, because of this, I would wait to do the grayscale last. Do your grayscale after you get all the physical stuff first, because your grayscale is dependent upon everything else before it in the physical setup. After you set your color, check your grayscale again and then color again. It took a few run thru's until everything was honed in.

Please correct me if I am wrong here......

You're right... Always finish with grayscale!

Regards

Thanks for your thoughts Angelo. I'll probably go with the Spyder2 then due to cost and frankly it doesn't need to be absolutely-spot-on-perfect, just need to correct the slight pinkish-tint I have in my grayscale now and can't seem to fix with my own eye.

Being that there is not a big price difference between a new spyder2 from a reputable comp like newegg, or a used one on ebay, I spent the little extra to get new unopened. Who knows what someone put a used one thru or how old it is on ebay. Just my thoughts.

Didn't notice till everything was uploaded that my camera tilt was off!

Sorry, ain't gonna go back and shoot 'em all over again. These are just some of the total I just shot. Took a long time.

Just know that it was the camera being tilted, not the display!

:D

These were all shot at 1.2MP on my Kodak Z712 IS, on tripod and 2 second timer'd, of course -


b

Sprint commercial

http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/3268/32209randbrecenteringop.jpg[/URL]

http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/7088/32209randbrecenteringopl.jpg[/URL]

24

http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/5836/32209randbrecenteringopy.jpg[/URL]

http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/1967/32209randbrecenteringopw.jpg[/URL]

http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/1750/32209randbrecenteringopv.jpg[/URL]

http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/8724/32209randbrecenteringoppvc.jpg[/URL]


Casino Royale commercial

http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/3268/32209randbrecenteringop.jpg[/URL]


Evening news

http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/5020/32209randbrecenteringopm.jpg[/URL]


Test patterns. Remember the tilt is at the camera, not the display -

Took vertical sizing in a bit to accommodate the offness of the DVE pattern, which is slightly oval, vertically, when sized properly at the edges. I set my roundness using a shot of the moon, on a broadcast show, I believe on PBS. I am sure it will now match the perfect circles on the ABC and CBS logos as well.


http://img264.imageshack.us/img264/3268/32209randbrecenteringop.jpg[/URL]

Final Mits sm settings for height and width

http://img264.imageshack.us/img264/3746/32209randbrecenteringopr.jpg[/URL]

http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/3268/32209randbrecenteringop.jpg[/URL]

Joe Kane grid at low contrast

http://img264.imageshack.us/img264/5836/32209randbrecenteringopy.jpg[/URL]

That looks real good for all the way around and circles. I'm definetly still off on geo.

That looks real good for all the way around and circles. I'm definetly still off on geo.

Lemme at her and you won't be...

;)


b

http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/6397/recenteringoponmit73fin.jpg[/URL]

http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/6333/recenteringoponmit73finr.jpg[/URL]

http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/6397/recenteringoponmit73fin.jpg[/URL]

Think they can make that logo any bigger?!
WTF?!
Obviously, I don't watch a lot of TV, but that really is ridiculous. Now I understand why you complained when it was 100% brightness.
Great shots, BTW.
At least the logos are beautifully focused and converged. ;)

I was gonna write a caption for the first one: "Adama. And he's pi$$ed!"


:D


b

I liked that series after I decided it had nothing to do with the original one. It was different and great Sci-FI. That logo was a killer before but the WTH they actually listened to folks and cranked it down.

I liked that series after I decided it had nothing to do with the original one. It was different and great Sci-FI. That logo was a killer before but the WTH they actually listened to folks and cranked it down.

They listened to me. I was the one who called up NBC and raised holy hell, several days after the first episode they showed on the SciFi HD channel, after its being on UniHD all the time before that.

I was not getting much co-operation and so I asked the guy I was talking with what kind of display HE had. He said plasma. I said, "then you're next".

Silence.

After that I had his attention! By the next episode on SciFi HD they had turned it down to the halfway point, which is all that needs to happen to safeguard our sets from screenburn.

Dish has not been so co-operative. They don't seem to care AT ALL that their guides and menus are at 100% Torch Mode, and are burning our phosphors every time we use them. If we surf around their menus for awhile trying to figure out what to watch, it just gets deeper and deeper cut into our CRT faces.

I have seen its screenburn, primarily on the "dish" logo up in the left corner. It's permanent and it's not pretty. Esp. since all 3 colors are affected, meaning all 3 guns get trashed.

I would really appreciate it if somebody else called them up and gave THEM holy hell. I have already tried, till I was blue in the face. Perhaps having a number of people call them will do some good -


b

They listened to me. I was the one who called up NBC and raised holy hell, several days after the first episode they showed on the SciFi HD channel, after its being on UniHD all the time before that.

I was not getting much co-operation and so I asked the guy I was talking with what kind of display HE had. He said plasma. I said, "then you're next".

Silence.

After that I had his attention! By the next episode on SciFi HD they had turned it down to the halfway point, which is all that needs to happen to safeguard our sets from screenburn.

Dish has not been so co-operative. They don't seem to care AT ALL that their guides and menus are at 100% Torch Mode, and are burning our phosphors every time we use them. If we surf around their menus for awhile trying to figure out what to watch, it just gets deeper and deeper cut into our CRT faces.

I have seen its screenburn, primarily on the "dish" logo up in the left corner. It's permanent and it's not pretty. Esp. since all 3 colors are affected, meaning all 3 guns get trashed.

I would really appreciate it if somebody else called them up and gave THEM holy hell. I have already tried, till I was blue in the face. Perhaps having a number of people call them will do some good -


b

I already did twice. No luck!:mad:

I watched "Night of the Museum" with the family last night. I had seen it on my TV before I had did the shim and other adjustments/mods. Didn't feel the upconvert was doing anything. Well last night was a different story. Great deep colors and 3/D look with sharper edges (not fake LCD 1080P edges). Definetly could see the resolution had improved. Also the benefits of the washer mod for the red blur to the left side helped. Still need to get the grayscale perfect and do better on geo pattern.

This was a great example of a before and after though.

I watched "Night of the Museum" with the family last night. I had seen it on my TV before I had did the shim and other adjustments/mods. Didn't feel the upconvert was doing anything. Well last night was a different story. Great deep colors and 3/D look with sharper edges (not fake LCD 1080P edges). Definetly could see the resolution had improved. Also the benefits of the washer mod for the red blur to the left side helped. Still need to get the grayscale perfect and do better on geo pattern.

This was a great example of a before and after though.

Awesome, Sidney!


;)


b

According to some on this forum the “shimming” mod is not worth doing.:rolleyes:

According to some on this forum the “shimming” mod is not worth doing.:rolleyes:

Because they haven't done it.

It is well worth the effort, thank you mate :)

Hey im having a slight blur problem ...when im playing my ps3 it seems like the text is shadowed on the side its not completely crisp like it used to be...is this image shift? how can i fix this

Hey im having a slight blur problem ...when im playing my ps3 it seems like the text is shadowed on the side its not completely crisp like it used to be...is this image shift? how can i fix this

Have you done convergence on it recently? Not magic focus but 117p. Also have you done lense cleaning? Both could have an effect.

Or out of focus. Or out of astigmatism. Or out of scheimpflug. All these things factor in. Not one of them can be left to chance for the crystal clear images we all crave here...

:cool:


b

According to some on this forum the “shimming” mod is not worth doing.:rolleyes:

To some people even calibration is not worth doing.

:rolleyes:

Fortunately we usually don't have to put up with them on this forum!

:p

The shimming mod made an INCREDIBLE difference in my pic! Yeah, I echo that, Leo. Thanks mate!

;)

b

Have you done convergence on it recently? Not magic focus but 117p. Also have you done lense cleaning? Both could have an effect.


eh? convergence? 117p? shimming?

Links? help!

To some people even calibration is not worth doing.

:rolleyes:

b

Exhibit A!

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1137864

hi, I have learked for years.. and got good info..now I can't find what I need, I have done a few searches..
my cable co. had put a lot of hd channels on dig. channels, like, 6.1 is hd for chl 6, on my 2 other tv's when I do a scan, they come up.. on this, no matter if I do air, or cable, when I click scan, it shows a select box for analog, and dig. but it only looks for, and finds analog..
I called HT support... no help... guy kept saying it is automatic, and if it didn't find any, they are not there... well.. like I said, my other tv's find um... and I want this so I can record one chl and watch another HD with splitter..
thanks in advance!

eh? convergence? 117p? shimming?

Links? help!

Well I would read this whole thread and get all the info you will ever need. You could also search the thread. Just put in 117p convergence.

Have you tried to hit the magic focus button to see if it helps? Kinda a first stop just to see.

hi, I have learked for years.. and got good info..now I can't find what I need, I have done a few searches..
my cable co. had put a lot of hd channels on dig. channels, like, 6.1 is hd for chl 6, on my 2 other tv's when I do a scan, they come up.. on this, no matter if I do air, or cable, when I click scan, it shows a select box for analog, and dig. but it only looks for, and finds analog..
I called HT support... no help... guy kept saying it is automatic, and if it didn't find any, they are not there... well.. like I said, my other tv's find um... and I want this so I can record one chl and watch another HD with splitter..
thanks in advance!

Some Hit models were built with a 480i NTSC tuner that would then be upconverted to 1080i, but did NOT arrive at the endpoint of its tuner in true native ATSC 1080i! It kept the whole signal in 480i till it got upconverted by the Virtual HD circuit.

This was a cost-cutting measure by Hit in the later years before CRT RPTVs bit the dust on being produced anymore.

Yours may be one of them, in which case you won't get true native ATSC 1080i HD from your set's built-in tuner. You'll get 1080i output, but upconverted from NTSC 480i.


b

ok, ya lost me..... it seems your writing output... I can't even get it to look for the chls. when I hit auto scan on chl manager, it starts to look... there are like 2 "choice" circles, analog is selected... it never goes to digital, and I can't seem to find a way to click on it to select digital..

Well you're at the right spot, someone here on this thread should be able to tell you what to do. I don't own a Hit myself, so gotta beg off on this one.

There are at least 4 Hit threads in this section, you might want to search the others out also and see what other Hit owners have to say about this.


b

thanks for the try......anyone else got an idea???

hi, I have learked for years.. and got good info..now I can't find what I need, I have done a few searches..
my cable co. had put a lot of hd channels on dig. channels, like, 6.1 is hd for chl 6, on my 2 other tv's when I do a scan, they come up.. on this, no matter if I do air, or cable, when I click scan, it shows a select box for analog, and dig. but it only looks for, and finds analog..
I called HT support... no help... guy kept saying it is automatic, and if it didn't find any, they are not there... well.. like I said, my other tv's find um... and I want this so I can record one chl and watch another HD with splitter..
thanks in advance!

If you have an antenna hooked up, you should def be getting HD channels if it's powerful enough to pull them in. As far as your cable co., I was always under the impression that they offer thouse through a special HD box that you would use with the component or HDMI input and the box would pull the channels in. At least that's how mine worked, I was with Comcast. When you do a search it's only looking on the coax input and it will automatically switch to a digital station when it senses one.

I noticed when I set up a new tv in the bedroom(and then on a dvr I have) that if just coax cable, out of the wall is connected, they will scan, and find, DIGATIAL channels, not necessarily HD on them... but a better signal, and picture on them... so... I need some how to make the tv tuner look for them... I have tried telling it that the input is air, and cable, still see the circle choice for dig, but can't get there..

Have you tried Hitachi central? Often they have people ready at the phones who can find answers like that for you. They are drones, of course, but nevertheless the answer might be in some knowledge bank on their screens...

I am assuming you have ALREADY looked in your owner's manual...


:p


b

yep, first just tried a few things, as it should not be a project:) then read the manual, then looked here, then call HT support.. my first post has more on that... no help is bottom line...from them...

jack1950,

What you hdtv's model #?

Ive got the 65f59a......

I noticed when I set up a new tv in the bedroom(and then on a dvr I have) that if just coax cable, out of the wall is connected, they will scan, and find, DIGATIAL channels, not necessarily HD on them... but a better signal, and picture on them... so... I need some how to make the tv tuner look for them... I have tried telling it that the input is air, and cable, still see the circle choice for dig, but can't get there..

"...the circle choice for dig"?
On my 57F59, channel manager -> source: air/cable1/cable2 -> auto channel scan: start/reset
It scans and tells ME whether the signal is analog or digital (that's why you can't "select" those circles).
Input "air" requires an antenna hooked up in the back (which works very well, depending on your location). That's the one I use; since there's only one cable input, I don't know about cable1/cable2. Are you getting a picture at all?
Michael

If your cable co signal is encrypted wouldn't you need their box, or a cable card for your tv, if it has a slot for it?

I get all channels ok, including HD when I use the cable box, on my input 3(that input don't mater)... and yes... when I hook plain out of the wall direct coax cable to the only place that will take it... and that shows up on screen as air or cable how ever I scan it, I am trying to get to the unencrypted digital channels... I have 2 other tv's, and my own dvr, not from cable co, that lets me scan, and get these channels.. they come up as like, 6.1 is the dig channel for regular 6.0
I want to do this so when I record one thing, I can jump to the cable input, and receive the better signal to watch something else..
and, yes, I go to menu/channel manager/ source: air/cable1/cable2 -> auto channel scan: start/reset
and have tried every combination to try to get the digital to scan... and it won't... but it will has, on other devices...
and that is what I want to do...

and have tried every combination to try to get the digital to scan... and it won't... but it will has, on other devices...
and that is what I want to do...

Have other devices scanned when connected to THIS cable?

Does the 65F59A ATSC tuner only accept OTA digital signals via antenna broadcast and not digital cable? I can see it getting only analog signals in the set with its NTSC tuner from cable.

With my set I can only get digital channels via OTA. Can't do it with cable in my area. ( Unless I get there box and pay for the same channels I get OTA).

We're trying to help!

thanks... i know you are, it seems like I may not explain it well... and, yes, on this cable, my DVR has scanned, and found, digital, unencrypted channels...
and, I have tried telling the set to scan the "air" w/ the cable connected to the antenna input, and, on the scan, it still "finds" all the analog channels so, it is scanning when it has cable, and told air... just won't scan for dig...

I did a quick search on your sets specs, check out the bold type:


Hitachi 65F59 65-Inch CRT Projection HDTV

Product Specs | Compare Prices
Date Published: 4/28/08


Advanced technologies like plasma, LCD and DLP dominate the big-screen HDTV market, but traditional CRT projection sets like Hitachi's 65F59 still offer strong performance at much more sensible prices. While they may not have the flashy style or garner the same hype as their high-tech brethren, CRT projection sets offer affordable performance that, in the proper light conditions, equals and even surpasses that offered by the significantly more expensive models.

There are some drawbacks, of course, the most obvious of which is the large cabinet size. The 65-inch 65F59 is more than 25 inches deep and weighs in at a whopping 259 pounds, but the cabinet thankfully comes in two pieces and has built-in handholds to make moving and positioning easier. Another negative to this particular model is the lack of a QAM tuner or CableCARD slot, so the 65F59 is not digital cable-ready.
The 65F59 has an integrated ATSC tuner, so it can process incoming 480i, 480p, 720p and 1,080i signals. Hitachi's high-brightness lens system and digital signal processing produce a sharp picture that stands up to most light conditions, and the CRT design delivers rich blacks. A 3-D Y/C digital comb filter reduces cross-color interference, and there are six preset picture formats for standard content and three for HD content. Automatic digital convergence can be engaged with the touch of a button.

The full-range speakers produce a total of 24 watts of stereo sound, which is somewhat underpowered but average for a TV of this size, and audio options include volume leveling and simulated surround sound. The 65F59 has day and night settings for each input source, and a timer will automatically switch between settings depending on the time of day. This HDTV has a full complement of PIP functions, but you must connect a second tuner to enable full PIP functionality. Other useful features include sleep and on/off timers and a full-screen picture freeze function.

The input/output selection is somewhat limited for such a large HDTV, as it includes only one RF input, two wideband component video inputs and one HDMI input, as well as five composite video inputs (one on the front panel), three S-video inputs (one front), a center-channel speaker input, a fixed/variable audio output and an optical digital audio connection.

Despite its lack of some important features, the Hitachi 65F59 is an advanced CRT projection HDTV that produces a good picture for a reasonable price.


Pros: Rich blacks and accurate colors, one-touch digital convergence, good value
Cons: Not digital cable-ready, large and heavy cabinet, only one RF input, second tuner needed to enable PIP functions



Warranty
1 year pa

thanks, I guess per this it can't do it:(... this is what I read in the manual, among other things
Channel coverage
VHF-Band .....................................................2 – 13
UHF-Band...................................................14 – 69
CATV Band .................................................1 – 135
• Video ..............................................1.0Vp-p, 75 Ohm
• S-Video
Luminance (Y) .............................1.0Vp-p, 75 Ohm
Chrominance (C) .....................0.286Vp-p, 75 Ohm
• Component Video
Luminance (Y) .............................1.0Vp-p, 75 Ohm
Chrominance (P B/PR ) ..................0.7Vp-p, 75 Ohm
• Audio input Impedance...............................47k Ohm
• Average input level ...................................470mVrms
• HDMI.....................................................HDM I 19 PIN
• Television System
NTSC Standard
ATSC Starndard (8VSB)
and where the ATSC was there, thought it would... BUT it don't say "tuner"... so, thanks for the help... sorry I was so persistent, and did not find the specs you did...
but, gotta say, I do love my tv, and, it is better from the info I have gotten here, settings and stuff!!

Cons: Not digital cable-ready,

My 57F59a has no problem with OTA digital stations. Absolutely no idea why you're having such a hard time. Sorry. :confused:

thanks, I guess per this it can't do it:(... this is what I read in the manual, among other things
Channel coverage
VHF-Band .....................................................2 – 13
UHF-Band...................................................14 – 69
CATV Band .................................................1 – 135
• Video ..............................................1.0Vp-p, 75 Ohm
• S-Video
Luminance (Y) .............................1.0Vp-p, 75 Ohm
Chrominance (C) .....................0.286Vp-p, 75 Ohm
• Component Video
Luminance (Y) .............................1.0Vp-p, 75 Ohm
Chrominance (P B/PR ) ..................0.7Vp-p, 75 Ohm
• Audio input Impedance...............................47k Ohm
• Average input level ...................................470mVrms
• HDMI.....................................................HDM I 19 PIN
• Television System
NTSC Standard
ATSC Starndard (8VSB)
and where the ATSC was there, thought it would... BUT it don't say "tuner"... so, thanks for the help... sorry I was so persistent, and did not find the specs you did...
but, gotta say, I do love my tv, and, it is better from the info I have gotten here, settings and stuff!!

You can get HD channels s long s you have an antenna strong enough to pull them in. If you hook your cable straight from the wall to your set, you shouldn't get any HD channels. At least not in the pseudo HD you will with an antenna. I believe the solution to your problem is that you need to go out and get high quality antenna, hook it up, and do the search again and I'm willing to bet if the antenna is good enough, you'll pull those digital stations in.

He's trying to get his cable-service digital hd channels by running the cable straight to the Hitachi, so he can use his cable stb-dvr to record another channel.

My 57F59a has no problem with OTA digital stations. Absolutely no idea why you're having such a hard time. Sorry. :confused:

Can your 57F59a pick up digital hd channels thru a cable tv service, not by OTA?

Can your 57F59a pick up digital hd channels thru a cable tv service, not by OTA?

My 51" will not get the digital HD channels straight from the wall. I can only pull in the channels using the antenna. I'm pretty sure this is because of no QUAM Tuner and I knew that going in. I dont think he can do what he's trying to do with this set. I have a HD DVR from Dish and can record 2 channels at once. Why not go that route? I may be missing the point here.

Can your 57F59a pick up digital hd channels thru a cable tv service, not by OTA?

1. I have DirecTV, which "probably" works the same, but I wouldn't want to say yes or no because my setup is different.
2. I'm not eager/willing to pull everything apart to try it, so I can't say for sure.
That said, the whole point to a cable box is for the cable company to control the signal. Having a "pass through" to the tv would defeat the purpose (from their point of view).
Of the many sites for finding what's available, I like this one:
http://www.fcc.gov/mb/engineering/maps/
Of course, he KNOWS the signal is there. I just think the answer is an antenna for one source and the cable box for the other.
Hmm, how about an antenna on the DVR???

He's trying to get his cable-service digital hd channels by running the cable straight to the Hitachi, so he can use his cable stb-dvr to record another channel.

What he's trying to do won't work. The set's internal "HD" tuner works with an antenna feed not a cable feed. Local cable HD channels are usually encrypted. He'll need an antenna to pull in the local HD stations the way he's describing. It's how I do it.

If this is ONLY a problem with your cable lineup and this particular TV, have you called the cable company about it?

QAM capability has to be a part of the Hitachi's ATSC tuner, if you want your internal HD tuner to receive it, rather than letting their cable box do it. They figure everybody who wants their signal to be fine on using their cable box, across the board. They will probably get stumped when you tell them you want to receive their QAM signal by way of your set's ordinary (OTA, possibly OTA-only) ATSC tuner.


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1. I have DirecTV, which "probably" works the same, but I wouldn't want to say yes or no because my setup is different.
2. I'm not eager/willing to pull everything apart to try it, so I can't say for sure.
That said, the whole point to a cable box is for the cable company to control the signal. Having a "pass through" to the tv would defeat the purpose (from their point of view).
Of the many sites for finding what's available, I like this one:
http://www.fcc.gov/mb/engineering/maps/
Of course, he KNOWS the signal is there. I just think the answer is an antenna for one source and the cable box for the other.
Hmm, how about an antenna on the DVR???

I'm not exactly clear if you mean being able to record from an over the air (OTA) signal into your Directv DVR.

The old HR20 had an integrated OTA tuner. After this model Directv came up with an external USB box, AM21.

http://www.abt.com/product/36830/DIRECTV-AM21.html?utm_source=scfroogle

If you don't get some of the HD channels from their regular feed, like I do, then this might be an option.

thanks guys, Im just gonna give up on this... I still think it should work, but you guys that get DIGATIAL channels OTA... when you do a channel scan... do it automatically do analog and DIG?? or do you have to tell it to look for DIG... and if so, how do you get it over to that "choice" circle??

You need to have an antennae that picks up both VHF and UHF stations - I got an RCA one at Best Buy for $20. Then do the scan, it picks up both digital and analog, then I go in to channel manager and de-select all the analog channels.

The OTA digital channels aren't true HD, but they still look great and with the little-tv-watching that I do, keeps me from buying cable or satellite.

You need to have an antennae that picks up both VHF and UHF stations - I got an RCA one at Best Buy for $20. Then do the scan, it picks up both digital and analog, then I go in to channel manager and de-select all the analog channels.

The OTA digital channels aren't true HD, but they still look great and with the little-tv-watching that I do, keeps me from buying cable or satellite.

You mean not necessarily true HD. I pick up true HD digital channels all the time on my Radio Shack roof antenna.

Digital doesn't necessarily mean HD, but ALL HD channels that come in have to be digital to exist.

I BELIEVE OTA HD is always UHF too... they sometimes CALL them VHF channels with special names and designations, but I believe that's in name only, and that you don't need a VHF antenna at all anymore, due to the digital conversion -


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You mean not necessarily true HD. I pick up true HD digital channels all the time on my Radio Shack roof antenna.

Digital doesn't necessarily mean HD, but ALL HD channels that come in have to be digital to exist.

I BELIEVE OTA HD is always UHF too... they sometimes CALL them VHF channels with special names and designations, but I believe that's in name only, and that you don't need a VHF antenna at all anymore, due to the digital conversion -


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I thought it was determined that the OTA tuner on these sets was digital, but was not a true HD tuner...it's being upscaled by the set. That's why I can still choose whether to use the "Virtual HD" options when watching OTA broadcasts, unlike with a proper HD input where the Virtual HD is not accessible. We're talking the Hitachi **f59series here.

I thought it was determined that the OTA tuner on these sets was digital, but was not a true HD tuner...it's being upscaled by the set. That's why I can still choose whether to use the "Virtual HD" options when watching OTA broadcasts, unlike with a proper HD input where the Virtual HD is not accessible. We're talking the Hitachi **f59series here.

That is 100% correct in relation ot the F59s - a digital OTA tuner, but not an HD tuner. OTA HD gets dumped to 480i internally, then upscaled to 540p/1080i depending on your VHD setting. HD signals, however, do appear in their normal 16x9 configuration, though.

A weird, slightly annoying & surely cost-cutting feature of the series. But, the only way an F59 will display a true. 1080i max HD picture is if it's fed via HDMI or component. Local HD broadcasts OTA will not be "true" HD. But the same broadcast carried over cable/sat/fios - or an HDDVD or Bluray,for that matter - will be displayed at it's 1080i resolution via the set's HD inputs.

However, when we first learned of this a couple years back, there was some serious disbelief amongn F59 owners here who were using OTA. They were convinced they were seeing OTA HD. They were not - but it speaks volumes to the quality of the VHD processing.

THis info also tied into Hitachi telling users that, in lieu of an upconverting DVD player, one might see the best results running a DVD via component @ 480i & letting the F59 VHD do the "upconversion". It can look very good this way & in some cases/with some players, can actually look better than a player-upconverted signal or even a 480p DVD signal.

Why would hitachi have a tuner in a set that recieve's a 1080i OTA signal and downcoverts it to 480i and then upconverts it to 1080i again? That is jive on their part. What a rip-off on these fine displays. When these particular sets came out, a good OTA STB could be had for chump change.

Why would hitachi have a tuner in a set that recieve's a 1080i OTA signal and downcoverts it to 480i and then upconverts it to 1080i again? That is jive on their part. What a rip-off on these fine displays. When these particular sets came out, a good OTA STB could be had for chump change.

Money I'm sure. It would have been nice to have a true HD tuner, but "HD" OTA still looks incredible on these sets. I purchased an HD STB, too bad it broke on me. Now I'm looking for another one. But to be honest, the difference between the two inputs was not that big, barely noticeable actually.

It's upscaling HD, not SD. It's going to look good as long as the upscaling isn't too bad, and it isn't. Not state of the aart, but not bad at all.

Money I'm sure. It would have been nice to have a true HD tuner, but "HD" OTA still looks incredible on these sets. I purchased an HD STB, too bad it broke on me. Now I'm looking for another one. But to be honest, the difference between the two inputs was not that big, barely noticeable actually.

It's upscaling HD, not SD. It's going to look good as long as the upscaling isn't too bad, and it isn't. Not state of the aart, but not bad at all.

So true HD can be downconverted into a 480i format and then upconverted back to 1080i via upscaling, and not lose horribly?

How can they do that when the downconversion costs dearly in the res/pixel density dept?


b

So true HD can be downconverted into a 480i format and then upconverted back to 1080i via upscaling, and not lose horribly?

How can they do that when the downconversion costs dearly in the res/pixel density dept?


b

Just like the newer DVD recorders, most have an ATSC and QAM tuners. Even though they are receiving a HiDef signal they do not record it 720 they record it 480.

Just like the newer DVD recorders, most have an ATSC and QAM tuners. Even though they are receiving a HiDef signal they do not record it 720 they record it 480.

Yeah, but they are not then displaying it at 1080i. It stays 480i on the disc they are recording, and plays back that way, unless being upconverted to a higher scanrate FROM the now downrez'd 480i recording.


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All I know is the OTA pic from this set rocks. I don't use it anymore since Dish has all my locals in HD now. When I did it matched most HD input.

That Virtual HD circuit must be really fantastic. Even a Faroudja upconverting regular 480i pales in comparison to the real thing, as far as HD vs. SD DVD goes, on ceiling pjs -


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That Virtual HD circuit must be really fantastic. Even a Faroudja upconverting regular 480i pales in comparison to the real thing, as far as HD vs. SD DVD goes, on ceiling pjs -


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I think it was Lee Bailey (who recently defected to the world of DLP.....but we forgive him ;)) who had posted pics of OTA "HD" on his 57" to help atest to what people were seeing. The TV info will even display the resolution coming in from the antenna (10811 or 720p). But the tuner - which I imagine is similar to the digital TV boxes old school TV watchers are gonna need come this summer (and were supposed to have in Feb)- was surely just a cost cutting thing.

The F59s from 2006 were the last CRT RPTVs Hitachi produced & were the company's least expensive CRT RPTV models to date, even before retailers started liquidating them. At least the cost cutting did not seem to happen with the optics & other more important features.

The price sure made 'em popular. I recall about a year & a half ago, Best Buy became a temporary Hitachi dealer, selling off F59 series sets for a song.

I still have a hard time believing that this particular tuner takes a 1080i outputs it as 480i. Is there some concrete evidence to link it to here, I dont mean someone said this or that, but actual evidence.

My respect for Hitachi in the RPTV line is giving me a tough time accepting this. I bet an HD tuner that they either made or outsourced during this period couldn't have costed them more than a few bucks each.

Mr Bob Quoted "That Virtual HD circuit must be really fantastic. Even a Faroudja upconverting regular 480i pales in comparison to the real thing, as far as HD vs. SD DVD goes, on ceiling pjs ".

You sound mighty sarcastic with this quote, Mr Bob....... and I have to agree with the sarcasm.......

Mr Bob Quoted "That Virtual HD circuit must be really fantastic. Even a Faroudja upconverting regular 480i pales in comparison to the real thing, as far as HD vs. SD DVD goes, on ceiling pjs ".

You sound mighty sarcastic with this quote, Mr Bob....... and I have to agree with the sarcasm.......

Just the facts, Angelo, just the facts...


:D


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I still have a hard time believing that this particular tuner takes a 1080i outputs it as 480i. Is there some concrete evidence to link it to here, I dont mean someone said this or that, but actual evidence.

My respect for Hitachi in the RPTV line is giving me a tough time accepting this. I bet an HD tuner that they either made or outsourced during this period couldn't have costed them more than a few bucks each.

Mr Bob Quoted "That Virtual HD circuit must be really fantastic. Even a Faroudja upconverting regular 480i pales in comparison to the real thing, as far as HD vs. SD DVD goes, on ceiling pjs ".

You sound mighty sarcastic with this quote, Mr Bob....... and I have to agree with the sarcasm.......


The closest you'll get is on the F59 spec sheet, that does not state the tuner is "HD".

My concrete info on the matter comes from Hitachi Engineering (not Customer Support, but an actual enginneer @ Hitachi's southern CA offices). He confirmed my question regarding the tuner - it was an offhand question I had asked during one of my conversations with this particular engineer (his name was Oscar) while sorting out the F59s HDMI woes. The F59s do in fact downgrade OTA HD signals (720p/1080i) to interlaced SD, then rescales them to either 540p or 1080i, per user's VHD setting. It was during the same conversation that Oscar mentioned upscaling DVD. He recommened that if you did not have an upscaling player yet, to not bother. Sending SD DVD @ 480i via component & allowing VHD to upscale for you will generally led to comparable - better, in some cases - upconverted DVD images. Keep in mind that this comment was made back when the set's HDMI input (about the only way one can do upscaled video these days) were causing us all fits & picture "freakouts". POst-HDMI fix, I find my Panny Bluray player makes SD DVDs look about the best they have looked on this set & I run that player via HDMI.

A good rule of thumb? If you are tuned to an OTA HD signal, yet the F59 allows you to access the Virtual HD menu settings? You are NOT seeing HD video coming straight from the source, but in fact the "rescaled" version via the non-HD tuner. "Real" HD video be it via disc, cable/sat or ext HD tuner - will gray out the VHD menu selection, leaving it inaccessible for the entire time you are tuned to said signal.

Just because a "real" tuner would have only cost Hitachi a few bucks more, the cost that trickles down to the consumer would be more than that. And apparently, Hitachi wanted to make sure they hit a certain ceiling on the F59 price point.

In my own case, it matters not one bit. I get my network HD via DirecTv. That HD signal is hitting my set & being displayed w/o any HD-to SD- to pseudo-HD silliness. Plus, the massive old trees that surround my house mess with OTA digital signals anyway. But for whatever reason, sat signals come thru perfectly.

If you want true high def on your F59, it has to come from something outboard - BD/HDDVD, HD cable/sat box or ext HD OTA tuner -that is connected via component or HDMI.

As to Bob's comment regarding Farjouda & upscaling....of course he is correct. I wonder, though, in the case of HD OTA signals & their eventual down & re-upscaling....since the orignal source was a 720p/1080i source to begin with & not a SD signal missing all the detail that an HD version would have packed into it, perhaps due the fact that the source is HD over the air already, the subsequent rescaling business results in images that to the eye seem truly HD.

Well.. I here and respect all the learned input here but I'm telling you that the OTA pic is pretty awesome. I did one time test a "House" episode between HD from the Sat and OTA. The OTA looked as good or better. Dont know if that was because the Sat was compressing the signal to much or not. Anyway it passed the viewing test.

Well.. I here and respect all the learned input here but I'm telling you that the OTA pic is pretty awesome. I did one time test a "House" episode between HD from the Sat and OTA. The OTA looked as good or better. Dont know if that was because the Sat was compressing the signal to much or not. Anyway it passed the viewing test.

Prob true with regards to the Sat being compressed. Seems like everywhere in the chain the signal has a chance of being mucked with, intentionally or not. The goal for anyone in the Hd media delivery business should be an un-adulterated signal from the filming of it to what hits your screen. I can't see why a service or manufacturer has to get "cute" with things. Oh of course, I know why, because the bean counters have numbers to hit, and most folks, (other than us enthusiasts here on these types of forums), couldn't care less about it. "Hey I got a new Hdtv, aint it great", while watching 480i cable or a dvd with an s video cable. The service providers and manufacturerers do it because they know it cuts costs and adds to the bottom line. Money first, customer second.

And another good example is ignorance from folks who work on the service content end. I have an aquaintence who works for the "Can you hear me now" company He tries to sell service bundled with Dish along with calling plans. He says how do you get your channels, I said I get HDTV with an antenna and outboard tuner running to my set. He said thats too bad you wont be able to use your antenna in a few months. I said OH REALLY, please tell me why. He says stations are going to broadcast only digitally.

I had to say you moron, What the heck do you think hdtv is? As far as stations going digital I have been getting a HD digital signal since 2002, and you think this is something new? But alot of folks would believe that crap, heck he believes it too.........

jwebb1970,

Thanks for that detailed info. Sounds like the hitachi engineer let it slip in one of those "oops" moments. I agree the hitachi's can display a 480i component signal from an sd-dvd player, with virtual HD, that looks better than using the progressive setting from the player, but I guess it depends on the player.

Its just a balancing act with manufacturers to hit a price point and dropping freatures to hit that price, but it is sad to have hitachi end their crt line that way, but I got to give them credit, they made them long after everyone else got out of CRT RPTV.

Another good example of them cutting costs with the line was dropping most of the black paint from the interior of the set.

Another good example of them cutting costs with the line was dropping most of the black paint from the interior of the set.

No kidding... bare wood!!! can't get cheaper than that.

Well.. I here and respect all the learned input here but I'm telling you that the OTA pic is pretty awesome. I did one time test a "House" episode between HD from the Sat and OTA. The OTA looked as good or better. Dont know if that was because the Sat was compressing the signal to much or not. Anyway it passed the viewing test.

The upconverted HD we get from OTA is as good or better than most HD you'll see from cable and esp sat. It's well known that sat has some of, if not the worst HD as far as pq goes. It is heavily compressed and barely qualifies as HD. Pure OTA HD is what you want to get from a pq standpoint. I love the pic I get from my antenna, I look forward to running it through a good STB and through the component input though, just to see if there is a difference. I have an older box and I have to say I saw no difference at all that way, but maybe a newer, better box will yield a different outcome. We shall see.

lordcloud....I'd actually put cable ahead of sat in terms of potentially crappy HD, even SD, PQ. Of course, YMMV - depends on the quality of an particular area's cable infrastructure. And from what I have heard, areas with FIOS-type service often see about the best quality, often rivaling OTA.

OTA HD can also look crappy, depending on a particular station's bandwith usage & whether or not they are cramming mutiple subchannels into the mix. The Fresno, CA NBC affiliate is one local example - occasionally the worst of the local HD bunch regardless of how it's delivered to you.

I will say that DirecTv's HD picture has improved considerably since they launched new birds & freed up/created more bandwith. Basically all HD signals are now MPEG4 from them. A few repeating channels that were not MPEG4 (HDNet, UniHD, HBO West HD, for example) were dumped & replaced elsewhere in the channel guide w/ the MPEG4 versions. I think only TBSHD remains a a duplicate channel (old one in the '70s, MPEG4 repeat signal in the 200-300 area). And while it matters not to us CRT RPTV-ers, both D* & Dish are offering HD PPV in 1080p. Have ssen D* 1080p PPV on a friend's big DLP set - looks rather comparable to Bluray.

IF OTA "pseudo HD" on an F59 works for you - stick with it!! It's free & obviously can & generally does look awesome.

My inability to consitently pull in all local OTA very well, plus the fact that EVERYTHING we watch outside of live sports events is recorded (live television sucks!!). D* is rather reliable for me plus the HD DVR was free up front. Also gives me On Demand programming like cable, without the massive cable bill.

If I could do OTA with a HD Tivo or equivalent, I would. But sat service feeds this particular TV junkie's HD entertainment monkey much better.

My Dish sat sig is awesome on HD. Some channels better than others. 24 is excellent, so is Grey's Anatomy, both 720p but upconverted by my VIP 622 to - somehow! - AWESOME 1080i! Their edge definition is second to none, just as good as BluRay, esp. on the edges of faces. Don't know how they do it, because original OTA 720p has lots of objectionable ee. My Panny picks up both individually without any upconversions between the 2, so the difference between 1080i and 720p is readily available for me to see.

I am on the flats, so my rotor-equipped antenna picks up everything that's OTA, tho the wind seems to muck with it on a regular basis and as a result I use the sat's downfed versions most of the time. OTA using the 622 in that regard is some of the best signal I get, here in the Bay Area. Gotta say that HDNET, UNI and a few of the other sat-only's are every bit as good, tho, in the latest and greatest MPEG4 format.

Have not had a chance to try FIOS yet.


b

My Dish sat sig is awesome on HD. Some channels better than others. 24 is excellent, so is Grey's Anatomy, both 720p but upconverted by my VIP 622 to - somehow! - AWESOME 1080i! Their edge definition is second to none, just as good as BluRay. Don't know how they do it, because original OTA 720p has lots of objectionable ee.

I am on the flats, so my rotor-equipped antenna picks up everything, tho the wind seems to muck with it on a regular basis and as a result I use the sat's downfed versions most of the time. OTA using the 622 in that regard is some of the best signal I get, here in the Bay Area. Gotta say that HDNET, UNI and a few of the other sat-only's are every bit as good, tho, in the latest and greatest MPEG4 format.


b

Was gonna say...isn't Dish HD also pretty much all MPEG4 now?

I can say that the local ABC affiliate's HD signal via D* (which is broadcast 720P), when viewing LOST, looks VERY comparable to the same series on Bluray. The LOST BDs do have a bit more detail & "pop" to em (and better audio), but the broadcast/DVR-ed versions are still excellent.

Was gonna say...isn't Dish HD also pretty much all MPEG4 now?

I can say that the local ABC affiliate's HD signal via D* (which is broadcast 720P), when viewing LOST, looks VERY comparable to the same series on Bluray. The LOST BDs do have a bit more detail & "pop" to em (and better audio), but the broadcast/DVR-ed versions are still excellent.

How do they do that??? If I set my 622 to OP 720p the ee and ringing are all there, mulching up the pic. If I set it to OP 1080i they are not, the pic is crystal clear at the edges. Yet it all comes from the same 720p from ABC and FOX, both of which are EXTREMELY excellent when the 622 is set to OP 1080i. ABC and FOX are some of the best pix the 622 puts out, across the board.

As you saw when I sent up shots of 24 recently.

???

:confused:

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lordcloud....I'd actually put cable ahead of sat in terms of potentially crappy HD, even SD, PQ. Of course, YMMV - depends on the quality of an particular area's cable infrastructure. And from what I have heard, areas with FIOS-type service often see about the best quality, often rivaling OTA.

OTA HD can also look crappy, depending on a particular station's bandwith usage & whether or not they are cramming mutiple subchannels into the mix. The Fresno, CA NBC affiliate is one local example - occasionally the worst of the local HD bunch regardless of how it's delivered to you.

I will say that DirecTv's HD picture has improved considerably since they launched new birds & freed up/created more bandwith. Basically all HD signals are now MPEG4 from them. A few repeating channels that were not MPEG4 (HDNet, UniHD, HBO West HD, for example) were dumped & replaced elsewhere in the channel guide w/ the MPEG4 versions. I think only TBSHD remains a a duplicate channel (old one in the '70s, MPEG4 repeat signal in the 200-300 area). And while it matters not to us CRT RPTV-ers, both D* & Dish are offering HD PPV in 1080p. Have ssen D* 1080p PPV on a friend's big DLP set - looks rather comparable to Bluray.

IF OTA "pseudo HD" on an F59 works for you - stick with it!! It's free & obviously can & generally does look awesome.

My inability to consitently pull in all local OTA very well, plus the fact that EVERYTHING we watch outside of live sports events is recorded (live television sucks!!). D* is rather reliable for me plus the HD DVR was free up front. Also gives me On Demand programming like cable, without the massive cable bill.

If I could do OTA with a HD Tivo or equivalent, I would. But sat service feeds this particular TV junkie's HD entertainment monkey much better.

In my area, cable definitely looks better than sat, it's far less compressed with fewwer channels. I do OTA becasue I watch very little tv, most of my viewing is on Blu or DVD. I was paying for cable and never actually watching it, all of the stuff I watched was local prime time stuff, and then, only on Mondays and Thursdays.

My ota really looks spectacular, and I have to say that sometimes is more 3D looking than Blu can muster. I want to put an antenna up on the roof, but I'm an apt dweller and that's just too much work for my old beat up bones.

In my area, cable definitely looks better than sat, it's far less compressed with fewwer channels. I do OTA becasue I watch very little tv, most of my viewing is on Blu or DVD. I was paying for cable and never actually watching it, all of the stuff I watched was local prime time stuff, and then, only on Mondays and Thursdays.

My ota really looks spectacular, and I have to say that sometimes is more 3D looking than Blu can muster. I want to put an antenna up on the roof, but I'm an apt dweller and that's just too much work for my old beat up bones

After seeing a friend's FIOS HD, I'm jealous - not as much PQ, although it's at least as good as D* if not better - but they gave him a FOUR TUNER HD DVR!!!. Sexy interface, lots of VOD - and plenty in HD. Unfortunatley, I live in a much older, established area of town. Our power, phone & cable lines still come off poles in the alley behind us. Those new developments have all the fancy underground fiber optic goodies.....but I am told ours will get it someday.

Fresno market Comcast is pretty good in PQ terms. Had it prior to D*. D* HD & local cable pretty equal, but D* excelled in SD PQ at the time. Plus, D* cost less for more channels & a far more reliable DVR.

Far too many things we watch on multiple channels & VOD to eschew sat service, but it'd be awesome if I did not have to pay for the various channels in our package that we don't watch.

How do they do that??? If I set my 622 to OP 720p the ee and ringing are all there, mulching up the pic. If I set it to OP 1080i they are not, the pic is crystal clear at the edges. Yet it all comes from the same 720p from ABC and FOX, both of which are EXTREMELY excellent when the 622 is set to OP 1080i. ABC and FOX are some of the best pix the 622 puts out, across the board.

As you saw when I sent up shots of 24 recently.

The D*/E* HD DVRs you mean? You got me. And I also set my D* HR-20 to output 1080i for all HD. But same case for me - FOX & ABC tends to be the best of the local network HD - and both are "only" 720p. I imagine the very slight improvement I see in LOST on Bluray is due to that being mastered in 1080p for the disc (and seen @ 1080i on my TV). Both NBC & CBS can get pretty pixelated during fast action scenes or when rapid flashes occur (sports being the worst). If everyone would have just stood still during the Olympics, Super Bowl or any AFC NFL game, the HD broadcast would be stellar. Or keep the lights dim ALL THE TIME on CSI? ;)

And these are the 1080i broadcasters!!

Boy....all we all done tweaking our sets & being reduced to this? :D

Oh...who am I kidding...

After seeing a friend's FIOS HD, I'm jealous - not as much PQ, although it's at least as good as D* if not better - but they gave him a FOUR TUNER HD DVR!!!. Sexy interface, lots of VOD - and plenty in HD. Unfortunatley, I live in a much older, established area of town. Our power, phone & cable lines still come off poles in the alley behind us. Those new developments have all the fancy underground fiber optic goodies.....but I am told ours will get it someday.

Fresno market Comcast is pretty good in PQ terms. Had it prior to D*. D* HD & local cable pretty equal, but D* excelled in SD PQ at the time. Plus, D* cost less for more channels & a far more reliable DVR.

Far too many things we watch on multiple channels & VOD to eschew sat service, but it'd be awesome if I did not have to pay for the various channels in our package that we don't watch.



The D*/E* HD DVRs you mean? You got me. And I also set my D* HR-20 to output 1080i for all HD. But same case for me - FOX & ABC tends to be the best of the local network HD - and both are "only" 720p. I imagine the very slight improvement I see in LOST on Bluray is due to that being mastered in 1080p for the disc (and seen @ 1080i on my TV). Both NBC & CBS can get pretty pixelated during fast action scenes or when rapid flashes occur (sports being the worst). If everyone would have just stood still during the Olympics, Super Bowl or any AFC NFL game, the HD broadcast would be stellar. Or keep the lights dim ALL THE TIME on CSI? ;)

And these are the 1080i broadcasters!!

Boy....all we all done tweaking our sets & being reduced to this? :D

Oh...who am I kidding...

Nah...we are just taking a break from crawling around inside. Wait to I get my Spyder and it starts all over again. It will sound something like this....HELP!!!!!!!!!!!! I screwed up my grayscale!:D:eek:

I have spoken with Bob and would like to get him out for a tour in the Chicago area, whether other people are interested or if it ends up being just me. I have tried contacting a few other potentially interested parties, but haven't got any responses. If anyone is serious about wanting in, send me a PM and we can discuss further.

I have spoken with Bob and would like to get him out for a tour in the Chicago area, whether other people are interested or if it ends up being just me. I have tried contacting a few other potentially interested parties, but haven't got any responses. If anyone is serious about wanting in, send me a PM and we can discuss further.

This would get much wider attention in the "Don't dump your CRTRPTV" thread...

Yeah, I just pm'd him about it, plus about the "Problems with Pioneer 510..." thread. If he doesn't get his pm from me soon and act on it, I will post it there for him.

I'd rather it come straight from him over there, tho, if I had my druthers...

But thanks for pointing that out!


;)


b

I just posted it over there -

;)

b

Did I read somewhere that Lee Bailey went DLP. Say it isn't so. Did he dump CRT altogether? I have yet seen a decently priced DLP even come close to CRT. Maybe someone has but I haven't.

Did I read somewhere that Lee Bailey went DLP. Say it isn't so. Did he dump CRT altogether? I have yet seen a decently priced DLP even come close to CRT. Maybe someone has but I haven't.

Yep... He got a Samsung 61" LED DLP

Here is one of the main threads for this tv

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1029686

Did I read somewhere that Lee Bailey went DLP. Say it isn't so. Did he dump CRT altogether? I have yet seen a decently priced DLP even come close to CRT. Maybe someone has but I haven't.

Saw a 73" DLP for very close to what I paid for my 57" Hit last week. Amazing deal did make me think twice.

Still not switching till my crt dies out.

RPCRT technology still here and will be here for many years to come. I feel that now even more than ever we are taking this technology even further with new tweaks and mods that really show its full potential.

As more people experiment with their sets and become comfortable changing and adding things to make their set look better this technology shows why is the standard to follow.

If you are not the type to experiment and tweak things, or if you are just looking for a good enough looking picture ... then RPCRT might not be for you.

Is anyone still making RPCRT sets? I thought they stopped in 2007/2008.

For me, unfortunately, I believe you are correct.

Isn't most DLP RPTV? Have they stopped making those too?

Isn't most DLP RPTV? Have they stopped making those too?

You are correct. I was just saying do to an early post if they still made CRT-RP not DLP-RP.

Hi,

I was hoping somebody might be able to help with an issue I have. Way back at the beginning of this thread are instructions on how to do a DCAM convergence. I printed those out and was able do in no problem just like in the instructions. My problem is that I can't reinitialize magic focus. The instructions for doing it I think are for a different remote control than mine because when I try to follow the intructions reinitialize it doesn't work. My remote is the 4362S. Does anyone know how to do it for this remote?

Here are in the instructions from early in this thread that DON'T work with my remote:

Press PIP mode or Aspect and then PIP Ch to initilize magic focus. When the green dots appear, initialize operation in finished.

Thanks in advance for any help you can give me.

Mark E