After you have followed my advice above about looking for a blanket of dust inside there, look back at post #3719, one page back in this thread, and follow it for a few more posts.


b

Will do. Thanks!

Mr Bob,

I have my TV in my basement and as such, I have my contrast running below half, however I have my brightness above half. Is this ok?

Brightness is the shadow detail in your dark areas, and principally affects only the blacks and darks. If your shadow detail is filling in correctly and yet still allowing blacks to clamp to complete black in the process, and without creating haze in your dark materials, you have it set right.

Midpoint is not always the correct setting for Brightness. Ideally yes, via calibration, but practically - not always. I run my Br at various levels depending on content, ranging from 40 to sometimes 48 (out of a possible 63). Usually 41-45, on my set.

On my set altering the sm Br settings to achieve the ideal of 31/midpoint in user - for a 63 max sys - didn't work. It altered the black floor to always being visible. So instead I had to go with the original factory setting in the sm Br, and be ready to change my User Br instead, for where it needs to be for correct shadow detail, at any particular time.


b

Wow great stuff on here lately. Sounds like to me that guy who bought the set for $150 may have a gem on his hands. What he described didn't sound to bad and may just be good old calibration. Thats if I didn't miss something. I still love this set and even with the advancements of FP's mine still rocks right along with them if not better.

Sidney, are you coming in on the Mr Bob cal tour coming up for your area? It was in the offing recently but had to be put off because of one of the guys having to postpone. But it should be coming around again soon.

Let me know -


b

Sidney, are you coming in on the Mr Bob cal tour coming up for your area? It was in the offing recently but had to be put off because of one of the guys having to postpone. But it should be coming around again soon.

Let me know -


b

I would love too. Just need to see when and how much money I have in my pocket at that time. The more time I have in advance warning the better I can prepare. I'm interested to see what you think of it as is before your expert calibration skills get to it.

I would love too. Just need to see when and how much money I have in my pocket at that time. The more time I have in advance warning the better I can prepare. I'm interested to see what you think of it as is before your expert calibration skills get to it.

I'm in San Antonio, I'm in if/when Bob comes this way. The more people we can get in the area the better for everyone.

Brightness is the shadow detail in your dark areas, and principally affects only the blacks and darks. If your shadow detail is filling in correctly and yet still allowing blacks to clamp to complete black in the process, and without creating haze in your dark materials, you have it set right.

Midpoint is not always the correct setting for Brightness. Ideally yes, via calibration, but practically - not always. I run my Br at various levels depending on content, ranging from 40 to sometimes 48 (out of a possible 63). Usually 41-45, on my set.

On my set altering the sm Br settings to achieve the ideal of 31/midpoint in user - for a 63 max sys - didn't work. It altered the black floor to always being visible. So instead I had to go with the original factory setting in the sm Br, and be ready to change my User Br instead, for where it needs to be for correct shadow detail, at any particular time.


b

Thanks

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=17424692#post17424692

I almost jizzed in my pants at the thought of having one of these at home. gamma correction and the ability to take care of my over saturated green, all in in HDMI in and HDMU out package.

I almost jizzed in my pants at the thought of having one of these at home. gamma correction and the ability to take care of my over saturated green, all in in HDMI in and HDMU out package.

After using your "borrowed" i1, is your grayscale green, too?
Have you tried the cut-off adjustment (manual pages 32 - 33)? If you go to SERVICE and see a thin red line, a thin blue line, and a big fat green line, then your trimpot needs to be adjusted.
Hate to see you still having a problem. Got any pictures?
Michael

i have the f5159 just using the remote control menu what are the best settings for the tv to get the best picture

i have the f5159 just using the remote control menu what are the best settings for the tv to get the best picture

That would depend on your specific set and your specific watching conditions.

However, a must do is to lower your CONTRAST to below 40. Then you could use AVIA or DVE disks to aid you on setting your set to your watching environment.

One other option is to use the THX calibration included with some of the pixar movies.

If you still would want to try some of other users settings, you can scan through this thread.

One other option is to use the THX calibration included with some of the pixar movies.


Actually, it's on 335 of them:
http://www.thx.com/home/dvd/search.html
(click "entire list").

i have the f5159 just using the remote control menu what are the best settings for the tv to get the best picture

I cant resist:D

There are just way to many settings that need to be adjusted in the SM. This set can do wonders but its potential is in this thread. I could adjust till I was tired from OOB but it can't come close to tweaking the set to the level its at now. Just food for thought if you really want to see material the best you can on this set.

Please help, I have noticed that over the past few weeks that my picture has turned grainy and over saturated. Can notice a great loss of picture quality and during light to dark scenes can notice a lot of digital artifacts. I have E* and have noticed the grainyness on all inputs but mostly on hdmi. Any suggestions would greatly be appreciated.

My hit has a wierd picture tilng problem during background camera pans and movement. I read earlier in this thread (from Bob) that that is not normal operation from CRT's. Now this is very subtle and happens on DVDs (xbox 360)
my Directv HD signal (1080i) and xbox 360 games (1080i) these are all runing composite through my onkyo hd receiver. When panning or a moving picture is displayed the tiling is subtle but very annoying. is seems like a refresh issue. It happens even directly connected bypassing the receiver.

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated!!

Thanks

the entire picture doesnt tile down, it seems to loose sync during refresh

I just added some pix to my Don't Dump your CRT RPTV! thread - not your specific brand, but definitely shows what CRT is capable of. Is a Mit, so keep that in mind and enjoy, even if you'd just like to see what YOUR set can look like with the appropriate care and attention -

;)

b

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=17508339#post17508339

shaunpc repair, i am having similiar problems but with grainy picture as well. Have you noticed a reduction in the WOW in your HD picture?

shaunpc repair, i am having similiar problems but with grainy picture as well. Have you noticed a reduction in the WOW in your HD picture?

If the WOW of your picture is not there anymore, it is the perfect indicator that the set is in desperate need of a mirror and optics cleaning. if you go to the "don't dump your CRT RPTV thread" http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=695922 there is everything you wanted to know about this and other things to keep our sets in top shape. You can also find that same information scattered in this thread.

Guaranteed to bring the WOW of your picture back!!! and if you do some of the other recommended tweaks, the picture will be better than before.

BD Monsters vs Aliens.

http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm148/CastilloLeo/Copy2of101_3505.jpg

http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm148/CastilloLeo/Copy2of101_3506.jpg

http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm148/CastilloLeo/Copy2of101_3507.jpg

Well I am going to start at least by cleaning the optics and blackening out the interior. I dont think that will fix all of my issues, but its a start.

What else has everybody else done for the BEST picture quality. at least from the DIY perspective.

Well I am going to start at least by cleaning the optics and blackening out the interior. I dont think that will fix all of my issues, but its a start.

What else has everybody else done for the BEST picture quality. at least from the DIY perspective.

We started a thread.
It's all here. Take your time, in reading and in doing, and you'll be fine.
Many of us have had phone consults with Bob at one stage or another; inexpensive access to a wealth of information and experience.
Have fun.

After using your "borrowed" i1, is your grayscale green, too?
Have you tried the cut-off adjustment (manual pages 32 - 33)? If you go to SERVICE and see a thin red line, a thin blue line, and a big fat green line, then your trimpot needs to be adjusted.
Hate to see you still having a problem. Got any pictures?
Michael

My grayscale is great, it's my color decoding that's the issue, and the only real issue is that green is over saturaed. I use AVIA to calibrate and green obviously needs to be reduced still, but it is at it's lowest setting. With CRT, sometimes one or two guns are over saturated. It can be cured with an outboard CMS, and that's what this device will do for me. My only issues are my green and my gamma and this box seems to be set to take care of both of those.

I have a few pics, but they're on an SD card, and my laptop has no slot for it. I'll find a way to get them on here though.

...green obviously needs to be reduced still, but it is at it's lowest setting.

Trimpot time, I think.
But that's me, and I'm reckless.
;)

When I find I don't have enough room to move in this scenario and one of the colors is still too strong, I play with raising or lowering the master color level and try again. That means the red and blue would have the new capacity to wind up being set stronger - or less attenuated - allowing the green to be set weaker, or MORE attenuated. And without any external processing.

If your red and blue decoding regs still have room to move but your green is maxed or min'd out, then change the overall scenario till your red and blue are set more to what they still have room to move in, and in the process you'll be allowing your green more room to move, where it's currently max'd out. Move the color decoding registers around inside themselves, based on new overall color and tint settings, which will allow them more room to move.

I have never seen it be caused by the green phosphors being out of sync with the red and blue phospors. All are official SMPTE-C colors, on CRT tech.

It's sometimes a trial and a tribulation, but always worth the effort!


b

Trimpot time, I think.
But that's me, and I'm reckless.
;)

I thought the trimpots were for grayscale adjustments. The issue I'm having is with the green gun being over saturated.

I thought the trimpots were for grayscale adjustments. The issue I'm having is with the green gun being over saturated.

Even though these can get set/calibrated in two different steps they are still inter-related, specially on our sets. If you redo the trimpots, you would have a new floor to start, that would be specially with green that we usually don't move on grayscale, and then adjust to that.

Have you measure your color through the Eye-one? I would venture to say that your green is way off medium delta as well as the other two primaries. If you are willing to take the time I would get the colors as close as you can through isolation, then do grayscale, then do color through the colorimeter. If your primaries are way too far off and you are dissatisfied with the picture quality then you should think on starting by redoing the trimpots, after all you have the necessary tools to make the adjustments after that.

I disagree, Leo. Once the trimpots have been set properly, they have applied to b/w material and should not affect the colorations when color is indeed showing on the screen. Remember, color decoding is a completely different animal from grayscale. Interrelated to some degree yes, but the grayscale is completely different from what Lordcloud is talking about, and you won't get any more green from your color decoding by altering otherwise completely efficacious trimpot settings.

I have added something to my post above, explaining how to get more out of your decoding registers when one seems to be maxed out and yet is still not doing the job.

Check it out, just a couple of posts above. If you've already read it, read it again because I just changed it around substantially.

;)

b

I disagree, Leo. Once the trimpots have been set properly, they have applied to b/w material and should not affect the colorations when color is indeed showing on the screen. Remember, color decoding is a completely different animal from grayscale. Interrelated to some degree yes, but the grayscale is completely different from what Lordcloud is talking about, and you won't get any more green from your color decoding by altering otherwise completely efficacious trimpot settings.

I have added something to my post above, explaining how to get more out of your decoding registers when one seems to be maxed out and yet is still not doing the job.

Check it out, just a couple of posts above. If you've already read it, read it again because I just changed it around substantially.

;)

b

Leaning something new ...

I disagree, Leo. Once the trimpots have been set properly, they have applied to b/w material and should not affect the colorations when color is indeed showing on the screen. Remember, color decoding is a completely different animal from grayscale. Interrelated to some degree yes, but the grayscale is completely different from what Lordcloud is talking about, and you won't get any more green from your color decoding by altering otherwise completely efficacious trimpot settings.

I have added something to my post above, explaining how to get more out of your decoding registers when one seems to be maxed out and yet is still not doing the job.

Check it out, just a couple of posts above. If you've already read it, read it again because I just changed it around substantially.

;)

b

This is what I've been trying to say, but no one believes me :) My grayscale is good, it's the green gun itself that seems to be over saturated.

This is what I've been trying to say, but no one believes me :) My grayscale is good, it's the green gun itself that seems to be over saturated.

I still think that by moving the post you can surely alter the color. It might not be the correct way of getting it right, but sure enough the color changes with the pots.

If I understand Bob correctly, the intensity of any of the main colors will not change by messing with the trimpots, but, and this is just an example and I know it doesn't get adjusted this way, but if you put up a static color image, picture what ever, and slightly move the pots ... the color changes. NOT the right way I know, but just saying.

This is what I've been trying to say, but no one believes me :) My grayscale is good, it's the green gun itself that seems to be over saturated.

It's not the gun, it's in the circuitry and the settings.

And yes, I believe you!

:p

b

I still think that by moving the post you can surely alter the color. It might not be the correct way of getting it right, but sure enough the color changes with the pots.

If I understand Bob correctly, the intensity of any of the main colors will not change by messing with the trimpots, but, and this is just an example and I know it doesn't get adjusted this way, but if you put up a static color image, picture what ever, and slightly move the pots ... the color changes. NOT the right way I know, but just saying.

Yes, but it's also altering your grayscale to do so! Once your grayscale is set properly with those trimpots - on clean pure gray material, all 3 colors showing at all times when you're working with the grayscale - you gotta leave them alone from then on. The trimpots are for the SETUP of your sys, not for the fine tweaking of it later. They are the foundation, not for being altered later for trimming purposes, and definitely not for coloration alteration when colors are actually being discriminated out from each other.

Whenever I have to redo the screen trimpots on Elites that have grown dim over the years - goose 'em up and rebalance them - I know I will have to completely redo the entire grayscale later. So I recenter the sm values to zero on the cutoffs, goose and rebalance the trimpots, and then once the trimpots are set such that the gray is pretty darn close at those zero'd out sm settings, I start completely over on my grayscale op in the sm.

I NEVER touch those trimpots again, no matter what! I only alter the sm values after that.


b

This is what I've been trying to say, but no one believes me :) My grayscale is good, it's the green gun itself that seems to be over saturated.

I believe you because my green is slightly over saturated. I mean so slight only I would know. But when you do the decoding it is the only color that will not get to perfect. I do not think I will mess with it because it is very slight and the pic is that good. I dont see green in my pic but every so often and even then I think it may be my imagination.

57F59 calibrated with SpyderII. As we all know the SpyderII has a problem with reading the lower portion of the darks, 0, 10 and 20. Just borrowed Michael's Eye-One, that I never got (but that is a story in itself). And will be doing some comparisons and redoing whatever needs to be redone... we'll see about how the color decoding does this time around.

grayscale:

http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm148/CastilloLeo/grayscalegraph.jpg

color:

http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm148/CastilloLeo/colorgraph.jpg

The Minolta CIE chart is for the color balance of grayscale, not for color decoding, or colorations of any kind.

Grayscale always involves all 3 colors at the same time, as it is a balance.

Colors, OTOH, can be all over the map. Green is the absolute lack of red and blue. Red is the absolute lack of green and blue, etc. And the infinite number of variations thereof, in the entire color spectrum.

Color decoding alignment is the comparison of the amount of each color vs. white, in the appropriate color bars patterns. It is done strictly with color isolation, one color at a time.

Completely different from grayscale, where all 3 colors always maintain the correct balance to result in D6500K, once set properly.


b

I thought the trimpots were for grayscale adjustments. The issue I'm having is with the green gun being over saturated.

Greetings,

The 51F59A green primary lies outside the Rec 709 space. It lies north and east of Rec 709 Green. That's why green doesn't look quite right. Red is worse, and it appears much stronger when viewed with the right program material. See the below diagram.
http://i655.photobucket.com/albums/uu272/summit_hdtv/Hit51F59Aprimarysecondary.jpg

Regards

Greetings,

The 51F59A green primary lies outside the Rec 709 space. It lies north and east of Rec 709 Green. That's why green doesn't look quite right. Red is worse, and it appears much stronger when viewed with the right program material. See the below diagram.
http://i655.photobucket.com/albums/uu272/summit_hdtv/Hit51F59Aprimarysecondary.jpg

Regards

When calibrating, green definitely needs to be turned down further, but it is at it's lowest setting. I know Craig Rounds likes to compensate with this by using an external CMS, as long as it's over and not under saturated.

Mr. Bob, I'm not sure if it's a setting and electronic thing and not the gun itself. I wish there was a way to be 100% sure, but I'm still thinking the gun just isn't capable of being made 100% accurate, but of course I can be wrong. I know green is harder to see when it's pushed, than red is.

When calibrating, green definitely needs to be turned down further, but it is at it's lowest setting. I know Craig Rounds likes to compensate with this by using an external CMS, as long as it's over and not under saturated.

Mr. Bob, I'm not sure if it's a setting and electronic thing and not the gun itself. I wish there was a way to be 100% sure, but I'm still thinking the gun just isn't capable of being made 100% accurate, but of course I can be wrong. I know green is harder to see when it's pushed, than red is.

Hello,

I'm not sure what you mean by saying turn green down further. The cuts/drives will have no influence on the color of green. The color decoder controls do, but they only go so far. The green gun, or rather the phosphors are not capable of an accurate green, or the red gun for that matter.


Regards

57F59 calibrated with SpyderII. As we all know the SpyderII has a problem with reading the lower portion of the darks, 0, 10 and 20. Just borrowed Michael's Eye-One, that I never got (but that is a story in itself). And will be doing some comparisons and redoing whatever needs to be redone... we'll see about how the color decoding does this time around.


You should (will!) be able to get those delta E's WAY down:

http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/4298/rgblevels.jpg

You should (will!) be able to get those delta E's WAY down:

Very much looking forward to it!!! :D

Almost ready to jump in. My plan is to clean and black out everything then manually focus with the wingnuts then electronic focus (lowering the brightness of the dcam grid first) then dcam convergence.

I would really like to look at the SM to see how the deeper optic cleaning will need to be done. Can anybody point me to the service manual...one that doesnt cost to download?

Also with the manual focusing do I turn the gun and it rotates up? Or do I need to to raise or lower it?

Thanks

Hello,

I'm not sure what you mean by saying turn green down further. The cuts/drives will have no influence on the color of green. The color decoder controls do, but they only go so far. The green gun, or rather the phosphors are not capable of an accurate green, or the red gun for that matter.


Regards

I never mentioned the cuts and drives, I've been talking strictly color decoding, not grayscale.

I've been trying to say this entire time that the green gun isn't capable of being accurate. With FP CRT, many calibrators use an outboard CMS, usually within something like a Lumagen, to get green as close to accuracy as possible. AS far as I can tell, the CMS that I linked to should be able to do this as well. We'll see.

Is there any chance of getting Hitachi to fix an out of warrenty HDMI port? It flashes green and shifts off to the left or right and you have to power the TV off to resume normal operations.

Thanks.

I would really like to look at the SM to see how the deeper optic cleaning will need to be done. Can anybody point me to the service manual...one that doesnt cost to download?


Email sent.
Michael

Is there any chance of getting Hitachi to fix an out of warrenty HDMI port? It flashes green and shifts off to the left or right and you have to power the TV off to resume normal operations.

Thanks.

They have been, but I don't know how long they will continue to. Whole thread on the topic here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=842581&page=19
Call the 800 number and ask.
Or switch to component cables. :)

Is there any chance of getting Hitachi to fix an out of warrenty HDMI port? It flashes green and shifts off to the left or right and you have to power the TV off to resume normal operations.

Thanks.

Here is the partial fix for the HDMI freak out issues.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9668868#post9668868

It does not completely get rid off the bug, but it does away with the set turning to bright colors and turning off by itself, you do still have an occasional shift and it varies on frequency from set to set.

If you are really bother by this, like Michael mentioned above, switch to component connections, you do not loose any HD resolution by doing so.

Thanks for the link. Reading about all the bad experences with the replacement process makes me have 2nd thoughts. I still get a green flash and the shift is that as good as it gets with firmware only fix?

Thanks for the link. Reading about all the bad experences with the replacement process makes me have 2nd thoughts. I still get a green flash and the shift is that as good as it gets with firmware only fix?

Are you sure it took? I would go back and recheck every entry to make sure they changed. You need to make sure you press "select" after every entry.

It happened to me; I thought I've changed it but I had to go back and re do it.

Would not hurt to make sure is changed.

Almost ready to jump in. My plan is to clean and black out everything then manually focus with the wingnuts then electronic focus (lowering the brightness of the dcam grid first) then dcam convergence.

I would really like to look at the SM to see how the deeper optic cleaning will need to be done. Can anybody point me to the service manual...one that doesnt cost to download?

Also with the manual focusing do I turn the gun and it rotates up? Or do I need to to raise or lower it?

Thanks

I'm assuming you know how to do the Mr. Bob's cantilever technique. Without it you may find focusing those guns a little hard to do. As a matter of fact I dont even know how you would do that without using that technique. If you dont and want to make life easier you may want to get a hold of Mr. Bob and save yourself some trouble.

All done with cleaning, manual focus, electrostatic focus and the SM tweaks. It feels like watching a new TV. In fact the issue I was having with tiling has all but been eliminated. I think the issue I was having was created by the edge and black enhancement I had on.

Excellent! And how old is your set??? These CRT sets just keep going, and going, and going...

Now really trick it out with the shimming op for o'scan redux and increased hor and vert resolution.

;)

b

Its a little over 3 years old. My wife even noticed the difference. I also blacked out the interior. The dcam convergence was giving me grief for a while. I was getting s curves until. the 3x3 then 5x7 then 9x13 thing wasnt working for me. I restarted using the tight grid then switched to fine grid giving me control over every box. lol I also started it using all the colors. I figured out of course to use red over green then blue over green (I used green as my reference color)

I am thinking of buying the new Star-Trek DVD. Should I upgrade from my old pioneer DVD player to Blu-Ray? Will my 51F59 support the 1080p from the Blu-Ray player?

I did a search on Blu-Ray in this forum but did not find too much.

Do I need to spend a lot for one? Or will a cheapy do.:confused:

Thanks all!

Its a little over 3 years old.

That's just a young pup! Owners of 9-10 year old CRT Elites are even as we speak crowing about how great their sets still look, as you've seen from my screenshots - and those of others, esp. Joe Barnhart's - of their sets after full optimization via cleaning and calibration.

;)

b

I am thinking of buying the new Star-Trek DVD. Should I upgrade from my old pioneer DVD player to Blu-Ray? Will my 51F59 support the 1080p from the Blu-Ray player?

I did a search on Blu-Ray in this forum but did not find too much.

Do I need to spend a lot for one? Or will a cheapy do.:confused:

Thanks all!

That's because this isn't the thread to discuss BD, but we've been using high def (now, by default, the only HD :() so you're question isn't unreasonable.
Depending on how old your "old Pioneer" is (ie, does it upconvert?), you should definitely get a BD player. The more expensive ones are better (no kidding :rolleyes:). I have a "cheapy," but I use my 805HD to upconvert SD's.
Set the player for 1080i, since that's what your set uses. The difference is dramatic. If you can't see a difference, then you're overdue for a good cleaning, detailed throughout this thread.
Black Friday specials will abound, so keep your eyes peeled.

I am thinking of buying the new Star-Trek DVD. Should I upgrade from my old pioneer DVD player to Blu-Ray? Will my 51F59 support the 1080p from the Blu-Ray player?

I did a search on Blu-Ray in this forum but did not find too much.

Do I need to spend a lot for one? Or will a cheapy do.:confused:

Thanks all!

Just like with any AV gear, there are people that swear they can see and hear the difference ... and yes there might be some, between entry level and hi-end gear.

I have a 2 cheapie ones and a PS3 (now considered entry level too), and they all look amazing. You need to use the right connections, either component or HDMI, and if you want your SD DVD to be upconverted you have to use HDMI.

Our sets max resolution is 1080i, and the difference between 1080i and "p" at these sizes is minimal if not non-existent.

Even if you buy one at Walmart is worth it.

I am thinking of buying the new Star-Trek DVD. Should I upgrade from my old pioneer DVD player to Blu-Ray? Will my 51F59 support the 1080p from the Blu-Ray player?

I did a search on Blu-Ray in this forum but did not find too much.

Do I need to spend a lot for one? Or will a cheapy do.:confused:

Thanks all!

Yes - TREK on BD is AWESOME - very cool bonus stuff, too - all in HD.

This is the holiday season to jump into BD if you have not already. "Best" player for the $$ may be the PS3, but several stand alone models go for under $299 (some getting to the $199 and less level) & come close to & even equal the PS3 in basic BD performance.

I got a Panny BD35 last XMAS. At the time, it was 2nd only to the PS3 based on CNET performance reviews. Now discontinued, it has since been replaced by roughly the same model w/ a different number.

Go w/ a 2.0 model - supports Internet connections (best for FW updates) & all that cool - or soon to be cool - BD Live stuff. 2.0 players are beginning to hover around & even below $200. Expect major discounts as XMAS comes closer.

I posted this in the Hitachi gun cleaning thread as well, but thought I might get a better response here.

I've read through several threads on optics cleaning. I have a 51" Hitachi that is a couple of years old now and could benefit from a cleaning, but I've have never done it before and am a bit intimidated by the process.

It seems fairly easy to open it up and clean the lenses, but where exactly is the mirror located and how do you get to it? Do you simply unscrew the lenses to get to the deeper optics? Are there any dangers involved in unscrewing the lenses?

After using my 57F59A as a computer monitor for about a year, I can now see a horizontal line going across the screen where the top of the taskbar appears. It's most noticeable on white backgrounds. I had the taskbar on auto-hide but it doesn't always auto-hide. I've been using Windows XP x64 which has a black taskbar and I've had the TV on 0% contrast with 66% brightness. I use the TV mostly as a computer monitor and for video games. Very little regular television and no movies. The TV is about 3 years old now. I thought 0% contrast would keep me from getting any burn-in. What happened? Is this burn-in? And how can I remove it? I've used it as a computer monitor for well over a thousand hours in the last year, so I can't display some bright image where the taskbar goes for an equivalent amount of time.

I posted this in the Hitachi gun cleaning thread as well, but thought I might get a better response here.

I've read through several threads on optics cleaning. I have a 51" Hitachi that is a couple of years old now and could benefit from a cleaning, but I've have never done it before and am a bit intimidated by the process.

It seems fairly easy to open it up and clean the lenses, but where exactly is the mirror located and how do you get to it? Do you simply unscrew the lenses to get to the deeper optics? Are there any dangers involved in unscrewing the lenses?

Okay, I really tried to resist, but I can't:
the mirror is the big, shiny thing in the back.
:D
This topic is covered in great detail in this thread. You should read through it to get lots of other great information, too.
The screen unscrews from the back at the sides and across the top, and from the front along the bottom. The first time you remove it, it really needs to snap off, which can be disconcerting. You are left facing the mirror (at which point you will realize just how silly your question was).
SprayWay is the material of choice, lots and lots of paper towels (Viva, supposedly, has less lint than the others).
There are tremendous dangers in unscrewing the lenses. Don't bother. Just clean the tops, Sprayway and lots of paper towels. Don't scrub the lenses - they're plastic, easy to scratch, and irreplaceable.
You may feel better speaking with Mr. Bob, whose posts and phone number are throughout. He has years/decades/eons (okay, maybe not) of experience and his insights are well worth a phone consult. I had him on the other end of the line when I changed the blue gun in my set. Though he's at the other end of the country from me, it was tremendously comforting to know he was there.
Be careful, take your time, and have fun.
Michael

To add to what LBNL said, it is very easy to clean the lenses with the back panel removed. From there I was able to get a pretty good look at the mirror and I could not see any dust on it. You might want to try that before going to the trouble of removing the screen.

With the back panel off just stick your head down by the circuit board and look up.

To add to what LBNL said, it is very easy to clean the lenses with the back panel removed. From there I was able to get a pretty good look at the mirror and I could not see any dust on it. You might want to try that before going to the trouble of removing the screen.

With the back panel off just stick your head down by the circuit board and look up.

Be prepared to make several passes on that mirror though and be careful not to raise up and hit it with your head. Hair seems to be oily...or so I hear:D

Hey a buddy of mine bought a new LED FP and swears the blacks are as true and deep as CRT. I dont believe it. Anyone else seen one of these sets in action?

Be prepared to make several passes on that mirror though and be careful not to raise up and hit it with your head. Hair seems to be oily...or so I hear:D

Hey a buddy of mine bought a new LED FP and swears the blacks are as true and deep as CRT. I dont believe it. Anyone else seen one of these sets in action?

There is a very simple and easy test for those that say that their blacks are as black as the ones from a CRT.

With the room as dark as you can play a movie that is 2.40:1 or letterboxed material, can you see the letterbox bars? Are they black or they seem to have some light to them? I'll bet he can distinguish the letterbox bars... I'm sure you can't... hehehehe :D

After using my 57F59A as a computer monitor for about a year, I can now see a horizontal line going across the screen where the top of the taskbar appears. It's most noticeable on white backgrounds. I had the taskbar on auto-hide but it doesn't always auto-hide. I've been using Windows XP x64 which has a black taskbar and I've had the TV on 0% contrast with 66% brightness. I use the TV mostly as a computer monitor and for video games. Very little regular television and no movies. The TV is about 3 years old now. I thought 0% contrast would keep me from getting any burn-in. What happened? Is this burn-in? And how can I remove it? I've used it as a computer monitor for well over a thousand hours in the last year, so I can't display some bright image where the taskbar goes for an equivalent amount of time.

Sounds like screenburn to me. Just lowering your contrast on fixed material won't always do enough to avoid screenburn, as the effects eventually go cumulative.

Our sets were not meant for the fixed images of computer use. They were meant for always-changing content.

The definition of screenburn is uneven phosphor aging. If you can't add age to the less-aged areas, you will have to regun whatever guns now have that burn on them. Or get a used set, for a fraction of what it would cost to regun your present one.


b

How much would it cost to regun my set? Would using a gray task bar instead of the black one eventually reverse the burn in?

Are CRTs still the best type of HDTV for 480p? And for gaming (input lag wise)?

How much would it cost to regun my set? Would using a gray task bar instead of the black one eventually reverse the burn in?


Prolly $1000 or more. Much cheaper to find one on the used market that has not been damaged...

:(

CRTs still the best type of HDTV for 480p? And for gaming (input lag wise)?

Yes, and it all depends on how good the upconversion is from 480i to p, if you're using i as your content. Each brand has its own upconversion between 480i and p, and some are better than others. DK about yours. I'll let others here answer that and the last one, as I am not a gamer -


b

Okay, I really tried to resist, but I can't:
the mirror is the big, shiny thing in the back.
:D
This topic is covered in great detail in this thread. You should read through it to get lots of other great information, too.
The screen unscrews from the back at the sides and across the top, and from the front along the bottom. The first time you remove it, it really needs to snap off, which can be disconcerting. You are left facing the mirror (at which point you will realize just how silly your question was).
SprayWay is the material of choice, lots and lots of paper towels (Viva, supposedly, has less lint than the others).
There are tremendous dangers in unscrewing the lenses. Don't bother. Just clean the tops, Sprayway and lots of paper towels. Don't scrub the lenses - they're plastic, easy to scratch, and irreplaceable.
You may feel better speaking with Mr. Bob, whose posts and phone number are throughout. He has years/decades/eons (okay, maybe not) of experience and his insights are well worth a phone consult. I had him on the other end of the line when I changed the blue gun in my set. Though he's at the other end of the country from me, it was tremendously comforting to know he was there.
Be careful, take your time, and have fun.
Michael

To add to what LBNL said, it is very easy to clean the lenses with the back panel removed. From there I was able to get a pretty good look at the mirror and I could not see any dust on it. You might want to try that before going to the trouble of removing the screen.

With the back panel off just stick your head down by the circuit board and look up.

Be prepared to make several passes on that mirror though and be careful not to raise up and hit it with your head. Hair seems to be oily...or so I hear:D

Hey a buddy of mine bought a new LED FP and swears the blacks are as true and deep as CRT. I dont believe it. Anyone else seen one of these sets in action?

Many thanks. I will try cleaning it this weekend. Either I'll end up with a set that looks as good as new or I'll end up destroying it and have a good excuse to buy a new 50" plasma.

I ache when I hear words like that. Have you any idea how valuable what you have is??? CRT should be placed in the Smithsonian, the pix it delivers are so good. With the attitude you currently have, you might subconsciously just "let something slip" just to have your excuse to buy new.

TREAT THESE MACHINES THE WAY THEY DESERVE TO BE TREATED!!! With the utmost of care! And patience. And dedication. And no distractions!

BTW, the mirror is dirty, trust me. There are tests for that.


b

I ache when I hear words like that. Have you any idea how valuable what you have is??? CRT should be placed in the Smithsonian, the pix it delivers are so good. With the attitude you currently have, you might subconsciously just "let something slip" just to have your excuse to buy new.

TREAT THESE MACHINES THE WAY THEY DESERVE TO BE TREATED!!! With the utmost of care! And patience. And dedication. And no distractions!

BTW, the mirror is dirty, trust me. There are tests for that.

b


I was only kidding with that remark. I'm perfectly happy with the set. I already have a 40" LCD in the living room for casual viewing, but I prefer the picture on the Hitachi, especially for movies. Gives it a much more "cinematic" feel.

Sounds like screenburn to me. Just lowering your contrast on fixed material won't always do enough to avoid screenburn, as the effects eventually go cumulative.

Our sets were not meant for the fixed images of computer use. They were meant for always-changing content.

The definition of screenburn is uneven phosphor aging. If you can't add age to the less-aged areas, you will have to regun whatever guns now have that burn on them. Or get a used set, for a fraction of what it would cost to regun your present one.


b

Why is it that none of the games I was playing left burn in, but the taskbar did? I spent a pretty significant amount of time playing games as well and they usually have various static objects.

What would be the best way to age the less-aged areas? The burn-in isn't too severe. It's very difficult to see it on anything but a light colored background. Are there even different levels of burn in or they all equal?

I was only kidding with that remark. I'm perfectly happy with the set. I already have a 40" LCD in the living room for casual viewing, but I prefer the picture on the Hitachi, especially for movies. Gives it a much more "cinematic" feel.

I figured you were kidding. Sounds like you know exactly what you have. Your right about that cinematic feel and look. Its hard to describe to a lot of people these days. They are so used to the glossy look of tv's these days they dont remember the look of a great movie on the big screen. Sometimes its almost as if I can walk into my set and join the movie.

Well, I cleaned the lenses and the mirror this weekend and it was actually easier and less intimidating than I thought it would be.

However, I seem to have done something to throw the focus off a bit. Not convergence - I redid the 117 point convergence and it seems fine - but the actual focus. The right half of the screen is noticeably blurrier than the left.

I've tried searching this thread, and though there are many references to focus, I couldn't find anything specific on how to actually go about it.

Where are the focus controls located?

There are 3 colors involved. It is very hard to imagine what you coulda done to cause the focus to be out on all 3 colors on just one side of the screen. Can you send up a pic of what you're talking about?

Seems the mirror still being dirty on one side only, might fit the bill. Did you hit it at least 4 times, maybe even 6? You can't just do it once and expect it to be good at that point. The kind of contamination these optical surfaces get sucked onto them and glopped onto them is beyond anything you've ever experienced before, trust me on that.

You doublecheck the mirror by having strong light content on your set, viewscreen off, and standing above the mirror. Make sure your eyes are out of the light path - you're not being blinded by the light - and look down into the optical cavity at the mirror from above. Are there swirls or streaks there still?

You'll only get your mirror 95% clean at best, which is fine - head and shoulders better than dirty with a year's worth of dirt and grime and soot on it, forming a haze when you shine a strong flashlight at it from a steep angle - but you gotta keep hitting it, over and over and over again, till it's at that target 95% clean.

Remember you're not cleaning glass. You're cleaning the aluminization that's coating the glass. Front surface mirrors are what all the best HD readys use, almost without exception. Using glass front mirrors would create double imaging, which would just not do, with HD.

And be absolutely stone cold careful with ALL the optics. They are intensely fragile, highly scratchable, and any damage they sustain will be permanent.


b

I left my set on for over an hour on a snowy channel at 100% contrast in an attempt to remove the burn-in. No difference so far, but will doing this longer make any difference to the burn-in at the bottom of the screen?

I left my set on for over an hour on a snowy channel at 100% contrast in an attempt to remove the burn-in. No difference so far, but will doing this longer make any difference to the burn-in at the bottom of the screen?


No. Burn-in is uneven wear - that is, some parts of the set were used more than other parts. It's like wearing a groove in a rug. There's no way to reverse burn-in. Theoretically, it might be possible by displaying an exact negative of the image that was burnt in for an extended period of time, but in practice, I don't think it would work.

Your best bet would be to peruse Craigslist or other classifieds and find a good second-hand set as a replacement.

However, I seem to have done something to throw the focus off a bit. Not convergence - I redid the 117 point convergence and it seems fine - but the actual focus. The right half of the screen is noticeably blurrier than the left.



Is the screen back on properly?

No. Burn-in is uneven wear - that is, some parts of the set were used more than other parts. It's like wearing a groove in a rug. There's no way to reverse burn-in. Theoretically, it might be possible by displaying an exact negative of the image that was burnt in for an extended period of time, but in practice, I don't think it would work.

Your best bet would be to peruse Craigslist or other classifieds and find a good second-hand set as a replacement.

Since I was always using low or 0% contrast, shouldn't a negative image at 100% contrast remove the burn-in considerably faster? And how would you recommend making a negative image of it?

There are 3 colors involved. It is very hard to imagine what you coulda done to cause the focus to be out on all 3 colors on just one side of the screen. Can you send up a pic of what you're talking about?

Seems the mirror still being dirty on one side only, might fit the bill. Did you hit it at least 4 times, maybe even 6? You can't just do it once and expect it to be good at that point. The kind of contamination these optical surfaces get sucked onto them and glopped onto them is beyond anything you've ever experienced before, trust me on that.

You doublecheck the mirror by having strong light content on your set, viewscreen off, and standing above the mirror. Make sure your eyes are out of the light path - you're not being blinded by the light - and look down into the optical cavity at the mirror from above. Are there swirls or streaks there still?

You'll only get your mirror 95% clean at best, which is fine - head and shoulders better than dirty with a year's worth of dirt and grime and soot on it, forming a haze when you shine a strong flashlight at it from a steep angle - but you gotta keep hitting it, over and over and over again, till it's at that target 95% clean.

Remember you're not cleaning glass. You're cleaning the aluminization that's coating the glass. Front surface mirrors are what all the best HD readys use, almost without exception. Using glass front mirrors would create double imaging, which would just not do, with HD.

And be absolutely stone cold careful with ALL the optics. They are intensely fragile, highly scratchable, and any damage they sustain will be permanent.


b

Is the screen back on properly?

I'll re-check everything again tonight. The mirror seemed fine - actually, everything was a lot cleaner than I thought it would be after two years. I took the lenses off to clean both sides. I'm pretty sure they all fit back into place properly, but I'll check that, too.

I couldn't get the screen to snap back in the way it was originally, but once all of the screws were in place, everything seemed to be even.

Since I was always using low or 0% contrast, shouldn't a negative image at 100% contrast remove the burn-in considerably faster? And how would you recommend making a negative image of it?

If it was on a computer, you could try taking a screen grab of the burnt-in image, bring it into Photoshop and "invert" the image under one of the picture adjustment tabs. Then crank up the white level and keep it up for several days or weeks.

I still don't think it would work, though. At the very least, you'd probably end up with at least a faint outline remaining at the edges of the burnt-in area.

I'll re-check everything again tonight. The mirror seemed fine - actually, everything was a lot cleaner than I thought it would be after two years. I took the lenses off to clean both sides. I'm pretty sure they all fit back into place properly, but I'll check that, too.

I couldn't get the screen to snap back in the way it was originally, but once all of the screws were in place, everything seemed to be even.

Did you do one lens at a time? if you didn't, did you make sure you put the lenses back in their respective place with out mixing them? If they got mixed this may be the cause.

A mechanical focus might be needed.

If it was on a computer, you could try taking a screen grab of the burnt-in image, bring it into Photoshop and "invert" the image under one of the picture adjustment tabs. Then crank up the white level and keep it up for several days or weeks.

I still don't think it would work, though. At the very least, you'd probably end up with at least a faint outline remaining at the edges of the burnt-in area.

On a fairly simple geometric pattern like a long thin rectangle, I think it would work. Be careful tho, and feather the edges a bit while you do it, or lines of demarcation would appear, which would be almost as objectionable. To feather the reverse image, you'll have to use the sm to move the reversed image now and then, so it won't be able to score in a high-energy line between dark and light. WRITE DOWN ALL BEGINNING SIZING AND POSITIONING VALUES BEFORE CHANGING ANY. You'll have to have a valid cookie crumbs trail when you're finished, to bring your set back to where you started.

Remember that you have to age everything to where it's all the same age across the screen. You can't take any of the present aging back.

So if you wind up aging the line of demarcation too much, the entire screen's light level on each color would have to be aged as well, bringing the entire screen down to being darker and more aged.

You'll have one shot, if you want to keep your CRT faces reasonably aged, which is already going to be more than their aging SHOULD be right now. So don't take any chances. Know EXACTLY what you're doing before you do it.

Whatever you do to reverse the current aging discrepancy will also be irreversible. What you have now is irreversible too, but adding age in the right areas can pull you out.

Adding too much age can ruin everything.


b

I couldn't get the screen to snap back in the way it was originally, but once all of the screws were in place, everything seemed to be even.

If you didn't get the screen to snap back in the way it was originally, that's your problem. The screws only tighten everything down.


b

However, I seem to have done something to throw the focus off a bit. Not convergence - I redid the 117 point convergence and it seems fine - but the actual focus. The right half of the screen is noticeably blurrier than the left.


Hello,

It's possible the cleaning jarred something out of whack, but I think it's doubtful. Is it possible the condition was there all along, but cleaning the lenses helped you see it better? (no pun intended...) The F5159A suffers from Scheimplug (sp?) errors in Red and Green. This error is caused by the lens face not tilted square with the mirror. The result is uneven focus on one side of the image versus the other. You can see this especially looking at the right hand edge and left hand edge with a crosshatch pattern displayed. The beam width is uneven on each edge of the screen. It also helps to isolate each color, one at a time. Very thin washers mounted in the Lens assembly is the cure.

Regards

On a fairly simple geometric pattern like a long thin rectangle, I think it would work. Be careful tho, and feather the edges a bit while you do it, or lines of demarcation would appear, which would be almost as objectionable. To feather the reverse image, you'll have to use the sm to move the reversed image now and then, so it won't be able to score in a high-energy line between dark and light. WRITE DOWN ALL BEGINNING SIZING AND POSITIONING VALUES BEFORE CHANGING ANY. You'll have to have a valid cookie crumbs trail when you're finished, to bring your set back to where you started.

Remember that you have to age everything to where it's all the same age across the screen. You can't take any of the present aging back.

So if you wind up aging the line of demarcation too much, the entire screen's light level on each color would have to be aged as well, bringing the entire screen down to being darker and more aged.

You'll have one shot, if you want to keep your CRT faces reasonably aged, which is already going to be more than their aging SHOULD be right now. So don't take any chances. Know EXACTLY what you're doing before you do it.

Whatever you do to reverse the current aging discrepancy will also be irreversible. What you have now is irreversible too, but adding age in the right areas can pull you out.

Adding too much age can ruin everything.


b

I don't know how to use the service menu to move the image around or even in what ways I should move it. Also, I don't have Photoshop. Is there another way to create an image that includes the shape of the taskbar?

It's possible some icons on the taskbar are burned in, like the start button, quick launch icons, and time, but I can't say for sure as it isn't clear whether it's on there or not. Maybe I'm having a hard time seeing it because they're in the very blurry corners of the screen. And I don't see how only the rectangular shape of the taskbar could've got burned in without the objects that were always a part of it.

Not sure if the problem was the screen or the mirror, but I opened up the set and re-did everything last night and now it looks AMAZING! I don't think it even looked this good when it was brand new. And I didn't even have time to properly dial in the convergence - just ran the Magic Focus.

A big thanks to all for your great help and advice.

I don't know how to use the service menu to move the image around or even in what ways I should move it. Also, I don't have Photoshop. Is there another way to create an image that includes the shape of the taskbar?

It's possible some icons on the taskbar are burned in, like the start button, quick launch icons, and time, but I can't say for sure as it isn't clear whether it's on there or not. Maybe I'm having a hard time seeing it because they're in the very blurry corners of the screen. And I don't see how only the rectangular shape of the taskbar could've got burned in without the objects that were always a part of it.

Put up an all white or gray screen, to see your screenburn. It is available on various test discs.

Were the graphics in that rectangle against a white background? If so that's why you got burned in that area. White - esp. full 100%/100IRE white - grinds away at your phosphors every second it's up there.

That's why the Dish Network logos, graphics and background whites on their Menus and Guides are so dangerous to CRTs and plasmas. The ones that are 100% full contrast white, Torch Mode those areas every second they are up there.


b

Not sure if the problem was the screen or the mirror, but I opened up the set and re-did everything last night and now it looks AMAZING! I don't think it even looked this good when it was brand new. And I didn't even have time to properly dial in the convergence - just ran the Magic Focus.

A big thanks to all for your great help and advice.

Awesome! How far away do you sit from it?

Now get it fully calibrated and be able to sit closer than ever before and still have everything staying crisp and clear. And BIGGER!


B

Here is an example of the taskbar that got burned-in:

http://i45.tinypic.com/fun82f.jpg

I put up a white desktop background and still can't say for sure if the start menu or time or any other icons are burned in. If they are they are much more faint than the bar itself. But it seems like the word "start" should be burned in since it's been there the whole time.

Is the taskbar lighter than the rest of your pic, or darker than the rest?

From your examples I would think lighter, as the top section of the inner 2 of your images is darker, but on the master one it's the bottom section. As such, your taskbar section at the bottom is what would need additional aging. Is that right? The bottom?

Can't explain the Start thing. Just count your lucky stars!


b

Yes, it is the long taskbar along the bottom of the screen that is burned in as a rectangle. This is only a screenshot taken from my computer so it won't show the actual darkness levels appearing from my set. So how would I go about creating something to age the bottom taskbar area without Photoshop?

Goodness Plasma's are getting cheap. I looked at the LCD/Plasma/LED's at Best Buy. Not sold on LED's yet. Pics are not better than mine and colors never will be. I will be getting my buddies dual HD DVD/ BLu Ray Samsung player before Christmas so even better times are comin.

I have a Hitachi 65f710 in perfect working condition that I am selling. If interested please PM me.

Goodness Plasma's are getting cheap. I looked at the LCD/Plasma/LED's at Best Buy. Not sold on LED's yet. Pics are not better than mine and colors never will be. I will be getting my buddies dual HD DVD/ BLu Ray Samsung player before Christmas so even better times are comin.

Better deal is the Mitsu RPDLP. Lots of interest. Using bing cashback, from Dell, 65" $800 + tax; 73" $1120 + tax. Very tempted myself, but can't get the wife interested in it. Still trying, though. ;)

I have a Hitachi 65f710 in perfect working condition that I am selling. If interested please PM me.

Unless you're eager to schlep it all over the country, you might want to tell us where it is. A ballpark figure might be nice, too.
And don't forget to post it in the AVS Classifieds.

Better deal is the Mitsu RPDLP. Lots of interest. Using bing cashback, from Dell, 65" $800 + tax; 73" $1120 + tax. Very tempted myself, but can't get the wife interested in it. Still trying, though. ;)

I haven't even seen any DLP's around here anymore. Used to be a lot but not a one now. My In-Laws sucked up a nice 55 inch Sony right before they disappeared at Sears. It was like $800.00. I have never seen it with HD content because they only use SD stuff. I would love to see how well it compared to my set in a head to head.

I haven't even seen any DLP's around here anymore. Used to be a lot but not a one now. My In-Laws sucked up a nice 55 inch Sony right before they disappeared at Sears. It was like $800.00. I have never seen it with HD content because they only use SD stuff. I would love to see how well it compared to my set in a head to head.

I saw them at Best Buy (the 73" and 82"); you've got four of them in Austin. Might pay to call around, just for fun. ;)

I haven't even seen any DLP's around here anymore. Used to be a lot but not a one now. My In-Laws sucked up a nice 55 inch Sony right before they disappeared at Sears. It was like $800.00. I have never seen it with HD content because they only use SD stuff. I would love to see how well it compared to my set in a head to head.

Last time I saw a DLP set anywhere recently was @ Costco - blowing out the remaining 50-odd incher for a song.

Just a remainder, before people start getting ideas, and jumping ship on RPCRT.
Some people can see rainbows on DLPs, so before you get one make sure you are not one of the few.

What about the input lag found in DLPs? And I don't think 480p sources are going to look very good after being upscaled to 1080p on a DLP. That isn't a problem with CRTs. Also, RPDLPs will still have overscan issues.

In addition to rainbows, there`s also the silk-screen effect (SSE) to take into account.

I bought a JVC LCOS set and thought the picture was excellent, but the SSE drove me crazy - it looked like the whole screen was shimmering. Exchanged it for a rear-projection Hitachi CRT.

In addition to rainbows, there`s also the silk-screen effect (SSE) to take into account.

I bought a JVC LCOS set and thought the picture was excellent, but the SSE drove me crazy - it looked like the whole screen was shimmering. Exchanged it for a rear-projection Hitachi CRT.

Now that was a good move. I was never a DLP fan. All you save are a few inches in cabinet depth. Why not get the CRT. I suppose you can argue the 1080p factor but we kinda already shown the fallacy in that argument. GO CRT~~~:D

Now that was a good move. I was never a DLP fan. All you save are a few inches in cabinet depth. Why not get the CRT. I suppose you can argue the 1080p factor but we kinda already shown the fallacy in that argument. GO CRT~~~:D

Plus a bulb to replace every few years.

Whats the best image or test card to use to do a manual focus on my 51f? Do I need to get all three lenses as tight as possible or will there be focus problems to the outer edges of the screen vs the middle?

My grayscale is great, it's my color decoding that's the issue, and the only real issue is that green is over saturaed. I use AVIA to calibrate and green obviously needs to be reduced still, but it is at it's lowest setting. With CRT, sometimes one or two guns are over saturated.

Something else to try, unless you've gone outboard. Kal's guide talks about primaries and secondaries. Obviously, we can't do much about the primaries, but we CAN adjust them as a group to some degree.
Using COLOR in the user menu (and your borrowed i2), Kal recommends getting the delta E's of the primaries as close to each other as possible. Even if it means that they're all high, it's better to have all three between 10 and 20 than to have two under 5 and one over 20.
Do the same thing with the TINT control and the secondaries.
I ended up reducing my color from 50 to 45. Tint didn't change.
My yellows are definitely much better than they've been before.

Unless you're eager to schlep it all over the country, you might want to tell us where it is. A ballpark figure might be nice, too.
And don't forget to post it in the AVS Classifieds.


Guess that would help. Tv is in Beaumont Tx... $600.00 obo for a mint condition 65F710.

Something else to try, unless you've gone outboard. Kal's guide talks about primaries and secondaries. Obviously, we can't do much about the primaries, but we CAN adjust them as a group to some degree.
Using COLOR in the user menu (and your borrowed i2), Kal recommends getting the delta E's of the primaries as close to each other as possible. Even if it means that they're all high, it's better to have all three between 10 and 20 than to have two under 5 and one over 20.
Do the same thing with the TINT control and the secondaries.
I ended up reducing my color from 50 to 45. Tint didn't change.
My yellows are definitely much better than they've been before.

What about what's listed here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=11676755#post11676755)?

I haven't yet tried it myself, but it would appear that we do have some independent control of the primaries.

What about what's listed here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=11676755#post11676755)?

I haven't yet tried it myself, but it would appear that we do have some independent control of the primaries.

That's color decoding, a whole different animal. As is grayscale, a whole different animal.
The only way to change the primaries is with filters, which are popular on projectors (actually, you can also color the coolant, but I think that's closer to voodoo than science, but I may be wrong).

And you should try it. Instructions appear earlier in this thread (involves changing RGBOUT and a test pattern).

Whats the best image or test card to use to do a manual focus on my 51f? Do I need to get all three lenses as tight as possible or will there be focus problems to the outer edges of the screen vs the middle?

480, not 1080. It's harder to see scanlines in 1080 than it is in 480. No matter what material I am using for my focusing, it's the actual scanlines themselves that offer the best capture of the density and separation between pixels and/or individual film grains.

AVIA's Letterbox Enhanced Circlehatch Grid uses 2 scanlines per hor. grid line, which allows you to go for the shadow in between the 2 hor. lines. It's what I use in all CRT calibrations I do, along with the individual brief hor. dashes that comprise the vertical lines. This allows the HD to be shown in all its glory and fully resolved, down to the grain of the film used.

You may have to play with the center to edge focusing. The fidelity of the lenses used determines this. The best lenses are crisp both in the center and also all the way out the edges. The more inferior ones used on the smaller RPTVs need to be averaged between the center and outside edges, with the crispest focus being set 1/3-1/4 of the way out from center in all directions.

ALL colors have to be fully maximized on their focus, manually. You can skate a bit on the blue in the electrostatic, but not in the manual/optical. That has to be crystal clear on all 3 colors.

b

480, not 1080. It's harder to see scanlines in 1080 than it is in 480. No matter what material I am using for my focusing, it's the actual scanlines themselves that offer the best capture of the density and separation between pixels and/or individual film grains.

AVIA's Letterbox Enhanced Circlehatch Grid uses 2 scanlines per hor. grid line, which allows you to go for the shadow in between the 2 hor. lines. It's what I use in all CRT calibrations I do, along with the individual brief hor. dashes that comprise the vertical lines. This allows the HD to be shown in all its glory and fully resolved, down to the grain of the film used.

You may have to play with the center to edge focusing. The fidelity of the lenses used determines this. The best lenses are crisp both in the center and also all the way out the edges. The more inferior ones used on the smaller RPTVs need to be averaged between the center and outside edges, with the crispest focus being set 1/3-1/4 of the way out from center in all directions.

ALL colors have to be fully maximized on their focus, manually. You can skate a bit on the blue in the electrostatic, but not in the manual/optical. That has to be crystal clear on all 3 colors.

b

Thanks MR B!! Got some Spray Away and going to clean the mirror and lenses and further if needed, thought I would do the focus while I was at it.

Now I need to get my O Scan down a little, showing 5 on top and bottom and about 7 or so on the sides.

Joe

480, not 1080. It's harder to see scanlines in 1080 than it is in 480. ...

... It's what I use in all CRT calibrations I do, along with the individual brief hor. dashes that comprise the vertical lines. This allows the HD to be shown in all its glory and fully resolved, down to the grain of the film used...

b

:eek::eek::eek::eek:

Revelation!!! I'm sure you've mentioned this before but its the first time that I've realized that focus should be done with 480 and not 1080. I've always done mine with HD patterns and material, oh well, and I just did a full calibration / comparison between Eye-one and Spyder2, and between using AVSHD-709 disk and DVE-HD disk (thanks to Michael :o). I'll post those findings and results soon.

If I refocus I'll run a quick reading and fast recal before returning the borrowed equipment.

And thanks Bob for the clarification.

I saw them at Best Buy (the 73" and 82"); you've got four of them in Austin. Might pay to call around, just for fun. ;)

Here in San Antonio a high-end V/A outfit, Bjorn's, has the 82" and its promoting it as the best tv, considering the size, ever. Didn't spend too much time with it but it sure looks good ... and BIG.

That's color decoding, a whole different animal. As is grayscale, a whole different animal.
The only way to change the primaries is with filters, which are popular on projectors (actually, you can also color the coolant, but I think that's closer to voodoo than science, but I may be wrong).

And you should try it. Instructions appear earlier in this thread (involves changing RGBOUT and a test pattern).

Color Decoding is actually what I'm referring to. Green is over saturated and Red is just off, and not by a little. Things still look good, but the set as is, has an issue with red accuracy. Some CRT projectors do and that's why they color the coolant and other things. I wouldn't go that far if it's possible on my set, I belive a much better and more elegant solution is an outboard processor. As a matter of fact, Craig Rounds and other well regarded CRT calibrators, seem to sing the praises of using a VP with CRT, as you can get gamma correction as well as better control over the colors, and that's exactly what I'm looking for.

...As a matter of fact, Craig Rounds and other well regarded CRT calibrators, seem to sing the praises of using a VP with CRT, as you can get gamma correction as well as better control over the colors, and that's exactly what I'm looking for.

Please let us know when you get it and how it goes.
Maybe you can get a finder's fee. ;)

:eek::eek::eek::eek:

Revelation!!! I'm sure you've mentioned this before but its the first time that I've realized that focus should be done with 480 and not 1080. I've always done mine with HD patterns and material, oh well, and I just did a full calibration / comparison between Eye-one and Spyder2, and between using AVSHD-709 disk and DVE-HD disk (thanks to Michael :o). I'll post those findings and results soon.

If I refocus I'll run a quick reading and fast recal before returning the borrowed equipment.

And thanks Bob for the clarification.

If you are using the Cantilever Technique you can double/triple check your optical focusing without changing it. If using HD proved reliable and allowed you to get the best focusing possible, even tho harder to do, then you can prove that your sys needs no additional optical focusing work without changing anything.

Keep us in the loop -

;)

b

Please let us know when you get it and how it goes.
Maybe you can get a finder's fee. ;)

As soon as I get it, you guys will be the first to know. After my wife and kids and friends in the real world. So maybe not technically first.............but not last, and that counts form something.

I have created this inverted image with paint:

http://i46.tinypic.com/51df2g.jpg

Will this be able to remove the burn-in of my taskbar?

Possibly. If you have reversed the light/dark sections it probably will. Will take awhile to do because it's not a real stark image to work with, but having complete black in the rest of the pic, like you do, should help.

Running it hot would probably be best, less chance of lines of demarcation because of the blurriness that running it super bright would cause.

But you gotta watch it, sit on it while it's up there and not let it get overdone or you'll have to start over in the opposing direction.

b

By running it hot do you mean 100% contrast and 0% brightness? How long should this take ?

Yes 100% contrast, but 50% br as always.

DK, never done it before. Your guess is as good as mine. Just don't take any chances. As you get close to your goal, become a LOT more careful each time...

:eek:

b

PS - remember, the colors have to be opposite too. If the red and green have been aged ahead of the blue, the blue has to take center stage. If the red, then the blue and green, etc.

Thanks MR B!! Got some Spray Away and going to clean the mirror and lenses and further if needed, thought I would do the focus while I was at it.

Now I need to get my O Scan down a little, showing 5 on top and bottom and about 7 or so on the sides.

Joe

Wow thats a lot of OScan on the sides. You may want to consider the Shimming Mod and just do it right from the get go. IMHO its the best and in the end easiest way to get the OScan down while increasing pixel density or resolution or what ever. Bigger, better pic:p

I am having problems with my OTA tuner. For some reason the picture is washed out and too white. This problem doesn't occur via HDMI, only happening OTA. However I have noticed an inconsistent PQ via hdmi. I have had my signal board replaced, could a bad board cause these issues?

Wow thats a lot of OScan on the sides. You may want to consider the Shimming Mod and just do it right from the get go. IMHO its the best and in the end easiest way to get the OScan down while increasing pixel density or resolution or what ever. Bigger, better pic:p

I have been reading non stop on this subject for a while and I was thinking of trying it. Does it really make that huge of a difference with the shimming mod vs the old o'scan method? I would of course check my crt's for aging and then increase o'scan to fill the crt's before shimming.

Was thinking about 1.5 to 1.75" on my 51F59A?

Yes it does, and as Mustang says, ultimately winds up being easier than the sm-only method. I have done it on my 73" Mit and several other sets lately as well, in my travels. It's definitely worth doing, as long as you follow it up with a thorough calibration, to bring out the best in your set. Just doing the shimming op to get rid of o'scan is not nearly enough. Your intention has to be to go the distance.

I should be in your area sometime soon, doing a calibration in Portland. Contact me directly if you want to know more. No pms please -


b

Yes it does, and as Mustang says, ultimately winds up being easier than the sm-only method. I have done it on my 73" Mit and several other sets lately as well, in my travels. It's definitely worth doing, as long as you follow it up with a thorough calibration, to bring out the best in your set. Just doing the shimming op to get rid of o'scan is not nearly enough. Your intention has to be to go the distance.

I should be in your area sometime soon, doing a calibration in Portland. Contact me directly if you want to know more. No pms please -


b

OK My wife never saw any of the differences on some of my tweaks and mods. Well except the ones that messed with color like ColorG. After I finished the Shim she actually walked in the room and was surprised how much improvement it had. Like Bob said though. You have to commit to working on your focus until you get it right. Theres going to be some geometry that needs worked on, ect....Your set has plenty of shim room. I would go 1.75 or even more. Dont finalize it. See what you think at that height and if you think you can get more add a shim and redo focus,convergence ect...Its easier once you have done it once already.

OK My wife never saw any of the differences on some of my tweaks and mods. Well except the ones that messed with color like ColorG. After I finished the Shim she actually walked in the room and was surprised how much improvement it had. Like Bob said though. You have to commit to working on your focus until you get it right. Theres going to be some geometry that needs worked on, ect....Your set has plenty of shim room. I would go 1.75 or even more. Dont finalize it. See what you think at that height and if you think you can get more add a shim and redo focus,convergence ect...Its easier once you have done it once already.

Thanks for all the info, i have done both lens and elect focus on the set and have also worked in the dcam and sm so i'm comfortable with that.

The only questions I have left is once it's shimmed should I re-align red and blue in dcam or is it better to do it at the crt's? also I have the factory overscan grid measurments, do I just use them and subtract those numbers with whatever % lower overscan I want and use the string and a yardstick to fix geo?

I'm going to work on it this weekend, so once I have those two questions answered I'm good to go.

I will take some before and after pics.

Joe

If you can shift your red and blue images without your set's aging footprint showing at the side edges, go ahead with that. If the footprint shows up at the side edges, then you gotta redirect the angles of your r and b guns for the required recentering, keeping the image where it was before on each of those screens and shifting the positioning of the whole gun mechanically instead.

If you have a faint enough - or no - aging footprint, you might consider filling you phosphor faces as much as possible during this op by actually expanding your overscan to fill the faces more, assuming they designed them with lots of unused phosphor area going to waste at the sides. I did and am very pleased with the result.

I do geo by eye, so I'll let others answer your other question.


b

... also I have the factory overscan grid measurments, do I just use them and subtract those numbers with whatever % lower overscan I want and use the string and a yardstick to fix geo?

I'm going to work on it this weekend, so once I have those two questions answered I'm good to go.

I will take some before and after pics.

Joe

That is the preferred method, unless you have the means of doing your grid with the new measurements and printing them on the mylar paper.

I used two small sticks, one with the horizontal dimension and one with the vertical dimension. Center the pattern first and use the sticks to measure the squares to put up the strings. Once you have that then align green first and follow with red and blue.

http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm148/CastilloLeo/Shimming/shimming050.jpg

http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm148/CastilloLeo/Shimming/DSCF0066.jpg

Just thought I'd post a pic of my sweet TV.

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a100/lordcloud/SDC11480-1.jpg

Just thought I'd post a pic of my sweet TV.


I had a line across the screen like that once. Had to replace the blue gun.
Oh, your set's not on!
;)

How about some screenshots?!
(with the set ON!)

I had a line across the screen like that once. Had to replace the blue gun.
Oh, your set's not on!
;)

How about some screenshots?!
(with the set ON!)

I've been trying to take some screenshots, but they all come out looking nothing like it actually looks. I'm going to keep trying though.

Yeah they can really be difficult.

Use a tripod for sure, no flash, and manual focusing, as the auto gets confused because of the depth of the light path. Use a 2 or 10 second timer to totally eliminate the potential of camera shake. Keep your cam as far away as possible - at least 9' - and use zoom to make up the difference, so your fleshtones will be more even center to edge.

Auto exposure usually pegs the light levels at way too high, resulting in overexposure, so I use manual there too.


b

I've been trying to take some screenshots, but they all come out looking nothing like it actually looks. I'm going to keep trying though.

Royal PITA. Been there, done that. Results, actually, belong here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1010146&page=30
Hope to see you there.
Michael

Are you sure it took? I would go back and recheck every entry to make sure they changed. You need to make sure you press "select" after every entry.

It happened to me; I thought I've changed it but I had to go back and re do it.

Would not hurt to make sure is changed.

After some more hdmi hiccups I went back and checked the setting and yes there was one of the setting that had not changed. Followed the procedure again and got right, it too early to tell if this will be the end all fix. I do have another question after calibrations I have always preferred the component video to hdmi connection? Is there a sound reason for this or should I go back to the drawing board with calibrations. Currently the Xbox 360 is the hdmi device I am using but could move the others.

I do have another question after calibrations I have always preferred the component video to hdmi connection? Is there a sound reason for this or should I go back to the drawing board with calibrations. Currently the Xbox 360 is the hdmi device I am using but could move the others.

You are aware that for calibrating HDMI you use the CBCR registers; component is set with PBPR.
So, yes, it's back to the drawing board.

After some more hdmi hiccups I went back and checked the setting and yes there was one of the setting that had not changed. Followed the procedure again and got right, it too early to tell if this will be the end all fix. I do have another question after calibrations I have always preferred the component video to hdmi connection? Is there a sound reason for this or should I go back to the drawing board with calibrations. Currently the Xbox 360 is the hdmi device I am using but could move the others.

What is it about your pic that makes component better?

Same for my Mit - HDMI on its IP sucks - but I thought the Hit's did a better job than Mit with HDMI...

:confused:

Personally I would not want to dick with the stellar OP of component on any CRT RPTV. I would always use the pure component rather than the at least 1 stage removed stomping on, that either HDMI or DVI instills in the pic because that's what happens in any type of conversion.

The only caveat would be if the BDP involved had rared back on the tech they were putting into component and only had that advanced new gen OP on HDMI. If they were allowing component to be a primitive version, then that would not apply.

Then I'd get the HD Fury II and use the HDMI OP of the BDP. Which of course I have already done, but in my case only for upconverting SD DVDs...

Otherwise I use strictly component -


b

What is it about your pic that makes component better?

Same for my Mit - HDMI on its IP sucks - but I thought the Hit's did a better job than Mit with HDMI...

:confused:

Personally I would not want to dick with the stellar OP of component on any CRT RPTV. I would always use the pure component rather than the at least 1 stage removed stomping on, that either HDMI or DVI instills in the pic because that's what happens in any type of conversion.

The only caveat would be if the BDP involved had rared back on the tech they were putting into component and only had that advanced new gen OP on HDMI. If they were allowing component to be a primitive version, then that would not apply.

Then I'd get the HD Fury II and use the HDMI OP of the BDP. Which of course I have already done, but in my case only for upconverting SD DVDs...

Otherwise I use strictly component -


b

On my Hit I tried both component and HDMI. The difference is very small if any.I went with HDMI for cable simplification.

Yeah I did a Hit recently and I think that's what both the owner and I found - that Hit's HDMI is very very good. Leave's the Mit version in the dust -

b

Need to know if adjusting screen pots are specific to each input. A tech did some work to my set and adjusted my pots for HDMI, however I just noticed that my component and all other inputs are washed out. My HDMI looks perfect, however both OTA tuner and component looked very washed out. Would I need to have tech adjust the pots for these inputs now that the pq is washed out. I have tried adjusting user menu settings with no great improvements.

What is it about your pic that makes component better?

Same for my Mit - HDMI on its IP sucks - but I thought the Hit's did a better job than Mit with HDMI...

:confused:

Personally I would not want to dick with the stellar OP of component on any CRT RPTV. I would always use the pure component rather than the at least 1 stage removed stomping on, that either HDMI or DVI instills in the pic because that's what happens in any type of conversion.

The only caveat would be if the BDP involved had rared back on the tech they were putting into component and only had that advanced new gen OP on HDMI. If they were allowing component to be a primitive version, then that would not apply.

Then I'd get the HD Fury II and use the HDMI OP of the BDP. Which of course I have already done, but in my case only for upconverting SD DVDs...

Otherwise I use strictly component -


b


More grain, color blending seems to be off some (blue sky and such) and what I think are small artifacts? If the HDMI still acts up from time to time this is a non issue as I probably wont use it so I may be jumping the gun. It is not huge but from 8 feet away? But don't get me wrong this is an awsome TV no plans to replace until it dies.

Need to know if adjusting screen pots are specific to each input. A tech did some work to my set and adjusted my pots for HDMI, however I just noticed that my component and all other inputs are washed out. My HDMI looks perfect, however both OTA tuner and component looked very washed out. Would I need to have tech adjust the pots for these inputs now that the pq is washed out. I have tried adjusting user menu settings with no great improvements.

The screen pots on most brands should always be adjusted on the most common denominator available, which is usually SD. With Hitachi, the "Service" option in sm shows a white line, which should be made to look white/gray the old fashioned way with the trimpots, the way we used to do it in the old days before service menus - long before HD.

With cutoffs nulled out at their numerical midpoints the gray should look reasonably correct for most inputs and formats on SD when the trimpots have been set properly.

For HD on component or HDMI, the cutoffs and drives and brightness levels for those particular inputs and formats may then need trimming to get it right on them.

When the trimpots are set properly, the pic should not be washed out on most inputs and formats, at least in SD. Ideally the luminance characteristics should be excellent at that point, in terms of shadow detail showing properly in the darks, blacks clamping to black properly, and no haziness or "washed out" look to any of the images.

HD is the secondary scanrate, and should then be altered as needed, for the same results.


b

Merry Christmas fellas!!!

Ho ho ho! I second that emotion!

:)


b

Hello guys, great thread!

I have one question. (i have the 52")

I am having bad static around objects when watching TV..
When watching tv, like football today, there is a static like border around all of the players.... but only wathing TV.. but only on this TV, i have a smaller flatscreen (32") in another room and dont get this static around objects. Some channels seem to be much worse than others. I have dish network, FYI.

Is there something i maybe messed up in the service mode that caused this? I dont remember when it happened, it has been this way for a long time and i have just dealt with it, but i figured i would ask you guys.

Thanks in advance... joe

Hello guys, great thread!

I have one question. (i have the 52")

I am having bad static around objects when watching TV..
When watching tv, like football today, there is a static like border around all of the players.... but only wathing TV.. but only on this TV, i have a smaller flatscreen (32") in another room and dont get this static around objects. Some channels seem to be much worse than others. I have dish network, FYI.

Is there something i maybe messed up in the service mode that caused this? I dont remember when it happened, it has been this way for a long time and i have just dealt with it, but i figured i would ask you guys.

Thanks in advance... joe

Just a guess but are you running it with Sharp turned way up and Edge Enhancement on High. Could cause that look sometimes. IF you do turn off edge enhancement and then start tweaking from this thread. You will find that you dont need or want it and sharp will not need to be very high either. Just guessing though.

Hello guys, great thread!

I have one question. (i have the 52")

I am having bad static around objects when watching TV..
When watching tv, like football today, there is a static like border around all of the players.... but only wathing TV.. but only on this TV, i have a smaller flatscreen (32") in another room and dont get this static around objects. Some channels seem to be much worse than others. I have dish network, FYI.

Is there something i maybe messed up in the service mode that caused this? I dont remember when it happened, it has been this way for a long time and i have just dealt with it, but i figured i would ask you guys.

Thanks in advance... joe

Another thing to keep in mind is that each "input" has it own independent settings, so if you changed the settings for "input 1" for your DVD and did not change "input 2" settings for your Dish, the settings on input 2 still at torch mode.

What you might be seeing might also be what I call "turbulence". It's "busy-ness" at edges, I have seen it even in nice brands like Sony. Don't know if it's in the source or the input path, but those things should be played with. They are usually exacerbated, like Leo said, by ee and high degrees of sharpness.

And much more apparent in SD than HD.


b

Another thing to keep in mind is that each "input" has it own independent settings, so if you changed the settings for "input 1" for your DVD and did not change "input 2" settings for your Dish, the settings on input 2 still at torch mode.

Even changes made in service mode are independent for each input?

I have been adjusting it some and it seems like the sharpness does effect it. I now have the sharp turned way down to eliminate most of the "glow" or "fuzz," but the picture is not clear enough anymore... I am tinkering in the service mode, tweaking things that seem to affect the sharpness.

I am running my service from the dish network box to the TV through component cables, but at this time i dont have HD programming...

I hope i dont end up making it worse than when i started because I commited one of the BIG SINS... not writing down the original settings. I will tweak it a little more tonight and let you guys know which settings I am changing, maybe you can point me in the right direction.

Even changes made in service mode are independent for each input?

I have been adjusting it some and it seems like the sharpness does effect it. I now have the sharp turned way down to eliminate most of the "glow" or "fuzz," but the picture is not clear enough anymore... I am tinkering in the service mode, tweaking things that seem to affect the sharpness.

I am running my service from the dish network box to the TV through component cables, but at this time i dont have HD programming...

I hope i dont end up making it worse than when i started because I commited one of the BIG SINS... not writing down the original settings. I will tweak it a little more tonight and let you guys know which settings I am changing, maybe you can point me in the right direction.

:eek::eek: That is indeed a big sin!

Eek! I know! BUT, it needed professional calibration anyways. I am convinced mine came from factory worse than most do.. I found a local guy who is ISF certified and has all the expensive equipment... so i have him scheduled to come out next week. I am excited to get this baby tuned in!!:D

Just because he has all the expensive equipment does not make him an excellent triple-gun CRT display calibrator. The equipment for grayscale alone can put him in the category where he can say he has expensive equipment. CRTs require skills not taught anywhere anymore, including at ISF, where they never have been taught.

An ISF trained calibrator may be excellent at the colorations and luminance aspects, but CRTs require huge amounts of the image structure alignments.

And only years of experience can get one to the top levels of that.

Be sure and ask him if he does astigmatism and scheimpflug alignments when necessary, and whether he knows anything about overscan reduction.

Chances are you'll need to fly someone in if you wish to have your CRT set really tricked out to the max of its true potential. Don't settle for someone local who is only versed in what ISF trains in, because as well as they do their job, there's only so much they can cover in their trainings. I have done 2 of their trainings so far, and believe me they have their hands full without even mentioning the image structure aspects of CRT tech. Which they don't.

Get someone who not only knows the ISF part, but a whole lot more.


b

Eek! I know! BUT, it needed professional calibration anyways. I am convinced mine came from factory worse than most do.. I found a local guy who is ISF certified and has all the expensive equipment... so i have him scheduled to come out next week. I am excited to get this baby tuned in!!:D

If you set still looks like the image has halos around objects after doing the basics adjustments, turning off all electronic edge enhancements, reducing contrast, setting brightnes, reucing sharpness and alingning colors, then most likely your optics and mirror need cleaning. ALL RPCRT need periodic cleaning wich makes a dramatic difference in the PQ.

Having your set calibrated will be a great improvement but you wont get rid off the halos with out a cleaning. I would make sure that before the calibration you/him clean the obtics and mirror.

If you set still looks like the image has halos around objects after doing the basics adjustments, turning off all electronic edge enhancements, reducing contrast, setting brightnes, reucing sharpness and alingning colors, then most likely your optics and mirror need cleaning. ALL RPCRT need periodic cleaning wich makes a dramatic difference in the PQ.

Having your set calibrated will be a great improvement but you wont get rid off the halos with out a cleaning. I would make sure that before the calibration you/him clean the obtics and mirror.

As I said before it sounds like EE is involved. I thought that EE was a needed thing to make mine look like the high dollar FP's out there. As my ignorance of the technology wore off and my knowledge base increased that changed. Proper service menu tweaks and convergence work will take that need away. It really just adds noise to the pic that is not needed. IMHO.

I didn't think of cleaning but it is possible to be dusty OOB. It is so easy to open the set up and look for yourself I would do it. Search this thread for mirror cleaning or optics cleaning and you will find plenty of help.It really does sound like some sharpness adjustment issues and possible dirty optics.

I commend you on the initiative of calling in someone. I too agree with Bob about locals not knowing all there is to know. I knew more about the inside of my set than the local tech Hitachi contracted with to do the factory paid for fix for the HDMI issues. I had to direct him several times because he wasn't even replacing what was required. I hate to say it but he left me with more work than he should have. He was paid to do convergence but after he left it was a mess. I ended up getting it in line and fixing the colors as well. So ask questions. Its your money.

Finally getting a chance to tinker over break here...I adjusted my shimming mod down a little as I was too close to the edges before. Things are much closer to centered now and no red line across the right edge. :p

Anyway, I'm going to do the string method today to bring geo and convergence back better - I looked in the service manual to see the measurements on the DCAM grid (51f59A). Since I've brought in overscan some, maybe 2-3%, how do compensate the measurements for that? Just make a guess? The factory numbers were 82mm vertical and 90.8mm horizontal - should I just estimate by taking off maybe 2% from that? Using the AVDHD pattern I'm at about 3-3.5% overscan all around now.

I just use the BD version of HD DVE. The overscan grid is fantastic for not only measuring the actual o'scan in percentages, but also for getting things coherent as well. The circle hatch grid has circles in the corners, I believe, which helps with the coherence aspects. I know the AVIA grid does, but that's for SD...

I have never seen the need for measuring the little boxes and rectangles and using strings, but I guess there must be one...

:confused:


b

Well I don't have DVE, but if the geometry is off already and you can see that on the DCAM grid, how is displaying another image over that going to be any different? It's still going to show the same convergence errors :confused: I need to measure the grid boxes to bring the convergence lines back into uniformity...seems much easier than trying to "eye it".

Circles can be easier to eyeball than parallel lines, which can be easier to eyeball than boxes or vice versa. All of it comes into play when I eyeball it, which happens on various different levels and from various different directions.

If you do the measuring, just gotta make sure you have done your math correctly before you start. Or doublecheck it after you've done one row in each direction - side to side and up and down...


b

...

If you do the measuring, just gotta make sure you have done your math correctly before you start. Or doublecheck it after you've done one row in each direction - side to side and up and down...


b

Very wise words.

Measure twice cut once!!! Wonder how I know this :confused:

Whew...I got the strings up and started adjusting doing green first. Quite a task. I measured the grid lines in the center as those should be closest to accurate, then used those numbers to figure out the percentage I brought in the overscan, which was about 2.5% it seems. Then it was just using that to subract off the original measurements and create my new virtual "jig screen" to put up the strings. Cutting a drinking straw into the pieces I needed worked well for measuring each grid line.

I'll report back when I have everything done, but it really shows already how bowed my picture was after the shimming. Sorry I don't have a digital camera anymore to add visuals of my project.

Well after doing the string method I again have a "flat" picture without speedbumps, which is nice. But it ended up expanding the picture back out and I essentially lost some of my overscan reduction from the shimming.

Now I'm just debating whether I should raise the array up some more, as it was only raised about 1 1/4" maybe. Is the convergence going to be nearly out of whack as it was the first time if I raise it another 1/2" or so? That initial convergence re-do was a major pain in the you-know-what; took me most of a day to do the string method and pull everything together.

Well after doing the string method I again have a "flat" picture without speedbumps, which is nice. But it ended up expanding the picture back out and I essentially lost some of my overscan reduction from the shimming.

Now I'm just debating whether I should raise the array up some more, as it was only raised about 1 1/4" maybe. Is the convergence going to be nearly out of whack as it was the first time if I raise it another 1/2" or so? That initial convergence re-do was a major pain in the you-know-what; took me most of a day to do the string method and pull everything together.

You can try to re do your DCAM by reducing it with out the aid of the strings. I did this a couple times before finalizing it by re using just the re measured straws. When I did this I started from the edges by moving it just a tad on the horizontal sides first, where you run out of adjustment faster.

If you are getting from 2.5% to 4% overscan that is what you are shooting for. On my case my vertical and horizontal percentages are different. If I made them the same the image look good using regular material but when using the geometry pattern my circles weren't true circles, so I adjusted to make them round.

Here is my final geo and DCAM.

http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm148/CastilloLeo/Shimming/shimming002.jpg

and the final overscan.

http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm148/CastilloLeo/Shimming/shimming010.jpg

I as well, found that the DVE pattern is not absolutely correct, it needs differences between the h and v %'s to line up correctly and deliver a true circle.

I recommend that if you have already stretched out your image so that you've lost some of the overscan you had before, don't change the settings. Leave it where it is. I recommend that instead you DO add more shimming to reduce the overscan back again, as long as you can get away with it. That means that you do not want to be showing your aging footprint, which can make the outer edges lighter than the middle, if it's prominent.

If not - if your images are falling on the CRT faces basically exactly where they were before you ever started - then you won't have to worry about the edges showing the aging footprint, as your image will not have changed position on your CRT faces. If those side edges are showing because of the required repositioning of the red and blue images, chances are you can re-aim those outer guns and get it right again rather than changing their positions via the sm positionings.

If you keep your sizing on the guns where it is and add the shimming instead, you will gain resolution by allowing your images to fill your CRT faces as much as possible, which you're more close to now than you were before.

Yes adding more shimming will throw your geo/convergence off again a bit, and it and your optical focusing will each have to redone, but not nearly as badly as your original shimming of 1.25". Half an inch will only mess it up a little bit in comparison, more than worth the extra effort because of the increase in res you get from keeping it all where it presently is and doing additional shimming instead.

Changing the point positions, should you do it that way instead, carries a substantial amount of messing up of your now good picture anyway, and that would have to be corrected too. It would also have to be done very carefully, to maintain the linearities you have finally dialed in. Adding shimming involves no linearities to have to re-work, aside from anything that would now show, that didn't show before, at the edges. The rest of the picture can be left alone, and your now completely coherent pic can stay coherent, all across the screen, if you add the additional shimming.

So keep it where it is, add the additional shimming, and correct as needed. Your display will be ahead of the game from then on.


b

This is what was printed over at my Don't Dump Your CRT RPTV! thread about the shimming op awhile ago by Leo, where I did do all the expansion possible, combined with all the shimming I could get away with, as mentioned above.

I was able to get a perfect circle by using an HD image of a full moon, and this resulted in the measurements you see here - just a little under 3% at sides, just a little under 2.5% at top/bottom. ID measurements all around resulted in a somewhat too tall moon.

Pardon the angle of the pix being off - the camera was a bit off on the tripod, the display was just fine. Didn't have time to reshoot it correctly.

Thanks again Leo -

;)

Very impressive Bob! Knowing first hand what it takes to get the set at under 3% overscan with perfect circles... VERY IMPRESSIVE!!!

http://img264.imageshack.us/img264/3268/32209randbrecenteringop.jpg[/URL]

http://img264.imageshack.us/img264/5836/32209randbrecenteringopy.jpg[/URL]

Well I ended up raising the CRT array up another 3/4" to bring the overscan back in again. I'm down to about 3% all around now and my detail came back. The geometry is screwed up again but not as bad as before I did the strings, but frankly I'm not going through all that again as I'd likely just lose the detail and it was a major headache. Plus I'm pretty much out of room to raise it up anymore.

Not really sure how you're supposed to get a perfectly flat picture after doing the shimming and maintain the detail gain, but despite the geo errors it's the best the tv has ever looked now. It'll be even better after I make a fine-convergence tightening. Also the colors are more even and blacks better as the lens striping and hood seem perfectly fit now, plus I pulled out the magic-focus wiring array from around the screen to try and cut down on reflections as much as possible.

Thanks for your advice, fellas.

What does that mean, the detail came back? The focusing? The optical/mechanical has to be redone after any shimming effort, no matter how small. How did adding that final amount of shim cause your detail to come back?

The geo/conv can also cause you to lose detail. Now that you have it properly shimmed, enjoy it, but be ready to redo all of the above once you've gotten used to how good it CAN look.

Once you're spoiled you can't go back. Once you've gotten used to it the way it presently is, you will want it to be totally coherent then, which means correcting all of it one more time.

Each time the throw distance gets changed by shimming, the mech focusing gets thrown off, the geo gets cranked, and the resulting conv errors all have to be corrected as well.

But worth it! Incredibly worth it -

:)

b

Here's my fully shimmed 73" Mit CRT. I didn't run these pix here at the time because this is a Hitachi thread, but I think you will see detail that is incredible. I do, and it's even better live than on screenshots.

Be sure to hit F11 if you want to really see it all.

Component fed ALMOST straight to display from Dish VIP 622 DVR, but going thru a mechanical generic 4 to 1 AV switch. Not even component grade rated, but you will see the undeniable purity.

Generic mechanical button-operated V 27644 triple-RCA switcher, 4 in 1 out, made for AV switching, labeled with the red/white/yellow colors, NOT green/blue/red. DK if it's component grade, don't even remember where I got it or what its brand really is because it doesn't say. But the RS switcher had the same performance. 100% efficacy. You can see that the sw box is definitely not impeding or messing up the picture in any way at all.

No HDMI or HD Fury is involved in these pix, they are completely component to component.

Forgive the non-linearity of the fleshtones, center to edge. That is a camera-only phenom, because of having to have the camera only 10' away from the screen. Would look better from 15'-20' back using more zoom (but the far wall is in the way) in which case the fleshtones would be fully linear.

Luckily you only have that phenom with the camera shots, not with your eyes. My eyes are never distracted any non-linearities of this nature, by sitting only 9' away from my 73" screen, which I do all the time.


;)

b


http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/1435/maybellinecommercial111o.jpg
http://img121.imageshack.us/img121/3006/maybellinecommercial111.jpg
http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/3006/maybellinecommercial111.jpg
http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/7787/maybellinecommercial111k.jpg
http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/3006/maybellinecommercial111.jpg
http://img121.imageshack.us/img121/5686/maybellinecommercial111h.jpg
http://img42.imageshack.us/img42/3006/maybellinecommercial111.jpg
http://img524.imageshack.us/img524/3006/maybellinecommercial111.jpg
http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/3006/maybellinecommercial111.jpg

Here's some more. DVR pix, not BD. This is Dish Network in action, their MPeg4 compression, recorded/paused. It is a commercial from Grey's Anatomy on ABC, which originates in 720p. I have heard they use a $60K Snell and Wilcox processor to transcode it into the 1080i you see here. Whatever way they do it, they are definitely doing it right -


b

http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/3006/maybellinecommercial111.jpg
http://img94.imageshack.us/img94/3006/maybellinecommercial111.jpg
http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/3006/maybellinecommercial111.jpg
http://img689.imageshack.us/img689/3006/maybellinecommercial111.jpg
http://img211.imageshack.us/img211/3006/maybellinecommercial111.jpg

Anybody have any questions about what CRT is capable of, in terms of the blacks?

It's the best there is. You just can't do any better on the blacks being inky and transparent than CRT. Someday we'll have million to one OLED, but at CES last year the largest production size for sale was 11", for $2500 from Sony. They had a fully proprietary prototype 27" size also on display and yes it was glorious, but it was nowhere near the production stage yet.

They won't have 73" - or even 65" or even 42" - ready to go for years, if the last few years is any indication.

For a whole lot less you can have these sizzlingly inky, fully transparent blacks just by keeping your CRT RPTV alive and kicking, and getting it tricked out.

b

http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/3006/maybellinecommercial111.jpg
http://img697.imageshack.us/img697/3006/maybellinecommercial111.jpg
http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/462/maybellinecommercial111g.jpg

I am trying to tweak some settings in the service menu as pointed out in the guide at the beginning of this thread. I can bring up the first screen of the menu, but when I push menu to go into the service mode of the menu, all I get is a black screen. I can exit out of the menu fine. Am I doing something wrong?:confused:

I found this thread because of the hdmi issue. I can get to that part of the menu, but I wanted to try some of the other tweaks that are in this thread.

Oh and I have a 51F59a and am currently using the cable input. I will be getting bell HD soon though.:cool:

The "Service" election gives you a fine horizontal line, used strictly to set up the Screen controls on your focus block, like in the old days. You should not need to adjust that at all. If it's black then the Brightness may need to be turned up, but at least if it's black in your dark areas you can trust that those Screen controls are not out of whack in their setup.

If you're naturally frisky and a cowboy and can't stop yourself from dabbling with already good setups, beware - once you've played with the Screen trimpots your grayscale will have been altered, do so ONLY at your peril. Grayscale requires a minimum of investment into reference equipment which can be very expensive or just mildly expensive, and has a HUGE learning curve.

Embark only if you have scads of time on your hands and a healthy appetite for frustration.

:)


b

I can bring up the first screen of the menu, but when I push menu to go into the service mode of the menu, all I get is a black screen.

What are you seeing on this "first screen"?
Bob is talking about service MODE, which you most certainly do not want.

You are aware that for calibrating HDMI you use the CBCR registers; component is set with PBPR.
So, yes, it's back to the drawing board.

Which values change the color settings for the OTA tuner? is it tied to component values?

What are you seeing on this "first screen"?
Bob is talking about service MODE, which you most certainly do not want.

Right, I was thinking he was saying he pushed the Select button to get this black screen he's mentioning, on the Service election.

Now that I see he was pushing the Menu button and getting a black screen, I too am curious...


b

Thanks Mr Bob. I guess I need to read better before messing around in this service menu. I guess I did push select and not menu, as I tried it again tonight. Luckily the Moron (Me) did not push anything except exit to get out of the black screen, while I was in service mode.

I was going to change the colorg setting to try the red push fix I read about. However I think I will wait to change anything until I get an HD signal.

I have had this TV for 2-3 years, and my contrast has been at the default setting of 100% all this time. My greens have seemed a little off, but seem fine on the volume bar & the magic focus screen. I'm hoping that my color will seem better with the better signal, and that I haven't damaged my guns, by having the contrast so high. If only I had done some reading when I first got the set.

If you haven't screenburned your guns, the worst you did if you watch under normal timeframes, is to prematurely age your phosphors a bit. How much depends on how much per day you watch your set.

Lucky that you found this info while it's only 2-3 years old! Some don't tune in on how to watch a great display like a videophile would till it's way older, like 6-7 years! At 100% contrast under normal viewing timeframes for that long, the guns would have lost a substantial amount of their brightness and thus grown substantially darker.

b

That makes sense. I do seem to have my brightness set higher then any of the other settings I have seen posted here. 75-80. My HD receiver should be here this week. hopefully my greens don't look so washed out with the HD signal. Thanks for all the info you have posted.

Yer welcome. Anything I can do to keep alive one of the greatest and finest video formats ever designed (triple gun CRT). Which at present has NOT been superseded by anything out there available to us consumers yet, BTW. Readily and affordably available or not.

I say this having attended CES in Vegas for years now, where all the new stuff comes out long before any consumer sees it, and where I will be arriving at again, tomorrow, for this year's event.

Vegas here I come!

:)

Hitachi owners, hang onto your sets! They are classics!


When I said brightness in the context of aging, I actually meant overall light level, not Brightness - which by definition, counterintuitive as it sounds and skewed as it is, means the shadow detail in dark areas.

If you have to have your Br running at 75-80, then it's miscalibrated in its centerpointing. When fully clean, calibrated and fine tuned in its sm settings and Screen trimpot settings, your Br will deliver delicious shadow detail at its centerpoint/50 for most of your selected video content. It will only need fine trimming for occasional extreme content.

Your overall light level on the other hand, may have gone down a bit because of the Torch Mode contrast setting you've been running. But not noticeably, under normal viewing conditions.

Which is what I was trying to say.

;)

b

Hitachi owners, hang onto your sets! They are classics!



b

My Hitachi is classic!!!!!!

I haven't done service menu stuff in so long I almost forgot how to get into it. Took me over 30 minutes to remember in my head the sequence. Guess I'm spoiled with the pic. All I do now is tighten up convergence once in a while. Now if I could just find a way to put it on a diet and make it as thin as a LED my wife will stop plotting its demise. LOL

Now if I could just find a way to put it on a diet and make it as thin as a LED my wife will stop plotting its demise. LOL

Would like to do the same for myself (though I don't think my wife plots my demise). :)
The "thickness" of the set never bothered us; it's in a wall unit, so it looks fine. And mounting a thin set on the wall would put it 2 feet further away.

Would like to do the same for myself (though I don't think my wife plots my demise). :)
The "thickness" of the set never bothered us; it's in a wall unit, so it looks fine. And mounting a thin set on the wall would put it 2 feet further away.

Mine's in a corner, so the thickness is a non issue, since it's the width that determines how far back it goes.

I looked into my CRTs last night, and yeah, I have some screenburn on the edges from the previous owner havin it atr 100% contrast. Bastards..

So no shimming to get more phospher for me, but Bob, you recommend doing it to bring the crts closer to the mirror still?

Don't feel too bad. Even at 50% contrast some footprint will eventually set in, after years of faithful service. Best you can expect is to not have the kind of screenburn that's evident in normal viewing whenever the scene fades to white.

Whatever shimming you do cannot be to expand your pic and get more CRT screen face exposed to the viewscreen, no, not at your set's age now. But reducing your overscan can still be done via the shimming op instead of sm only, if it still needs o'scan redux. Or to replace the sm only method, if no aging footprint has set in from that previous sm only oscan redux op.

Worst case scenario as long as you still can do the shimming op, you'll need to mechanically alter the angles of your outer 2 guns, to recenter your pix onto the fixed green image once shimming is done and the outer 2 images no longer line up with the green at the crosshairs. With the aging footprint visible, don't try to do the oscan redux compensations via the centering mags or sm hor positioning regs for the outer 2 guns, the red and blue. Do it mechanically only, or you'll show those virgin side edges.

So you'll have to loosen up a little all 4 screws that solidify each of your outer 2 guns to your bulkhead, then loosen up the inner 2 sets of 2 screws even more, till your images line up again. Shimming the array forward separates the outer 2 images about half an inch each from the green, which is what you need to compensate for in your recentering of them. See my pix of what I did on mine. You will need to crosseye them a bit, to get them to recenter on the fixed green correctly again once shimmed.

Stay away from the springs that cushion your CRT, don't do anything to them at all. Leave them alone, and all screws/nuts/bolts affecting them. You don't want to be cracking any of your CRTs...

I did all that and since I didn't have a handy way of fixing those screws in place, I just glued them real good at their top threads, where they went thru the bulkhead and were exposed at the top. That's enough to keep them in place permanently, as with this recentering op they become precision set screws, for re-aiming your outer 2 guns.

This will keep virgin phosphors from being exposed at the side edges. Then proceed to completely redoing your optical focusing via the Cantilever Technique and then also redoing your geometry and convergence.

If you started with the typical 6% oscan, shimming it the proper amount will then get you to anywhere between 3-4%, which is ideal for CRT. And will tighten up your res in the process.


b

Can someone help me out, I have just noticed a somewhat thin yellow line running horizontal across my screen. It won't go away and is very annoying. I have read that it could be a tube problem?

Can someone help me out, I have just noticed a somewhat thin yellow line running horizontal across my screen. It won't go away and is very annoying. I have read that it could be a tube problem?

Display a full blue screen. Is the line black?
If it is, there is now a permanent burn in your blue gun.
I know how I did mine; can't imagine how you did yours.
Only solution is to replace the blue gun. Most would consider that more trouble than it's worth.
Sorry.
:(

Display a full blue screen. Is the line black?
If it is, there is now a permanent burn in your blue gun.
I know how I did mine; can't imagine how you did yours.
Only solution is to replace the blue gun. Most would consider that more trouble than it's worth.
Sorry.
:(

how does something like this happen?

What is it about your pic that makes component better?

Same for my Mit - HDMI on its IP sucks - but I thought the Hit's did a better job than Mit with HDMI...

:confused:

Personally I would not want to dick with the stellar OP of component on any CRT RPTV. I would always use the pure component rather than the at least 1 stage removed stomping on, that either HDMI or DVI instills in the pic because that's what happens in any type of conversion.

The only caveat would be if the BDP involved had rared back on the tech they were putting into component and only had that advanced new gen OP on HDMI. If they were allowing component to be a primitive version, then that would not apply.

Then I'd get the HD Fury II and use the HDMI OP of the BDP. Which of course I have already done, but in my case only for upconverting SD DVDs...

Otherwise I use strictly component -


b

I have come to the conclusion component to the back of the 65F59A delivers the best PQ for My situation. The presentation is smoother and more life like.

how does something like this happen?

In my case, I was in the Service menu displaying the thin blue line to adjust my trimpots. Got bumped by an overenthusiastic old dog (since deceased [unrelated to this incident, which showed great restraint on my part]), and the signal was briefly extremely bright. Permanently burned phosphors. Ended up replacing the blue gun.
Can't imagine how it would happen under "normal" circumstances. Game machine?

how does something like this happen?

Lack of vertical sweep on just one gun. Pretty hard to do, except in Michael's case, where it's pretty easy to see how it happened.

How yours happened I don't know. But lack of vertical sweep in your beam as it draws your pic is the only way - it makes that hor line 480-1080 times more powerful than it should ever be, even for a second.

Why it affected only the blue is beyond me. Be thankful of that tho! Lack of v sweep on all 3 guns woulda required complete regunning, not just the blue.

Luckily these CRT sets - being the deal of the century right now - are going for pennies on the dollar out there in used land. Find one that will replace yours and donate yours to some charity where they don't use it for videophile viewing, but only for something totally non-demanding, like baby or child sitting, or just message or security information only.


b

Luckily these CRT sets - being the deal of the century right now - are going for pannies on the dollar out there in used land. Find one that will replace yours and donate yours to some charity where they don't use it for videophile viewing, but only for something totally non-demanding, like baby or child sitting, or just message or security information only.


b

Or videogaming.

Or videogaming.


i use my 65 hit.90ish %for gameing ...i game about 4-6 hrs a day online :eek:and i have just a tiny tiny hint of burnin on it and yes i do know what im looking 4 ..this is my 3rd big crt tv that i trash with gaming .....the newer tvs have way too much video lag in them to change.:mad:.but they are getting better.:D

To anyone in the Los Angeles / San Fernando / Santa Clarita valleys I will be giving my 51in rear projection away due to the fact that i haved moved into an apartment and it is just to big.The reason i am not selling it is every so often the picture will go off [not the whole set just the picture ]then i have to turn the set off then back on and everything is fine. It happens about once a week. I would not feel right about selling it since it is not working quite right but for free if the reason it does what it does can be fixed cheaply then it then it might be a good deal the overall appearance of the set is in very good condition. anyone interested may contact me at mikepierson3@yahoo.com

i use my 65 hit.90ish %for gameing ...i game about 4-6 hrs a day online :eek:and i have just a tiny tiny hint of burnin on it and yes i do know what im looking 4 ..this is my 3rd big crt tv that i trash with gaming .....the newer tvs have way too much video lag in them to change.:mad:.but they are getting better.:D

I have my Xbox hooked up to my 65" set, but my older systems are hooked up to an lcd seet in the bedroom. I don't have any burn in thankfully, but videogaming isn't in any way demanding, so I'd get a big screen digital just for videogaming if I could afford it. But sitting close to my 32" lcd isn't as bad as one would think.

If anyone near or in Dallas/Arlington, Houston, Austin or San Antonio area is interested on having their sets calibrated Mr. Bob will be in Texas the later part of January. If you are interested PM me or Email Mr. Bob.

Looking forward to it.

Just getting ready to give a 57F59 a face lift. Mr. (Master) Bob will be performing his magic.
Stay tuned to check the results.

Just getting ready to five a 57F59 a face lift. Mr. (Master) Bob will be performing his magic.
Stay tuned to check the results.

If you can please include before and after pics :)

Thanks

If you can please include before and after pics :)

Thanks

Def. As a matter of fact, I'd like to see a photo journal of his visit. I'm a geek like that.

If you can please include before and after pics :)

Thanks

Though there will probably be multiple posts, they seem to be starting here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=695922&page=213

http://img709.imageshack.us/img709/8271/superleoshitachi1241000.jpg

http://img109.imageshack.us/img109/9661/superleoshitachi1241001b.jpg

http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/341/shitachi12410019.jpg

Not a bad picture, by any stretch! He's been busy! It's fun to have such a great picture to start with!

More later -


b

Forgive me if this is the wrong thread for the following question.

I would like to move my 51F520 upstairs from the basement. Can the screen be separated from the bottom cabinet to make moving it easier? In the manual it shows how to do it for the 57" - but not the 51.

Thank you.

BARAKA reference material.

http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm148/CastilloLeo/calibration/calibratedBJ004.jpg

http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm148/CastilloLeo/calibration/calibratedBJ006.jpg

http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm148/CastilloLeo/calibration/calibragedBJ009.jpg

http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm148/CastilloLeo/calibration/calibratedBJ008.jpg

http://img689.imageshack.us/img689/2287/superleoshitachi12410afw.jpg

http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/5881/superleoshitachi12410af.jpg

http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/4701/shitachi12410aftersiii0.jpg

Forgive me if this is the wrong thread for the following question.

I would like to move my 51F520 upstairs from the basement. Can the screen be separated from the bottom cabinet to make moving it easier? In the manual it shows how to do it for the 57" - but not the 51.

Thank you.

Not an answer, but a suggestion: call a moving company for a quote on doing it for you. I had a very large, heavy treadmill that went from the second floor to the basement for $125. Money extremely well spent. The pros know what they're doing and make it look easy - it isn't!

Forgive me if this is the wrong thread for the following question.

I would like to move my 51F520 upstairs from the basement. Can the screen be separated from the bottom cabinet to make moving it easier? In the manual it shows how to do it for the 57" - but not the 51.

Thank you.

Yes and its in the manual. Pretty simple too. Theres not that much that holds the top on. Try and get the manual though as I have no idea if theres something different with the 57 model.

LastButNotLeast, thanks for the suggestion, but unless it can be taken apart it will not physically fit through the passageway/stairs in order to get to a higher level.

Mustang68, I *DO* have the manual. It is one manual for both the 51 and 57 inch. In this manual, it shows how to disassemble the 57 only. (Maybe the manual for Canada is different than the USA one? I'll search the net for the pdf). I was concerned about using the 57" instructions on the 51F520 - just in case there's an important difference between the two models. Don't want to break my RPTV!

I just need to know if it can be done, i.e. has someone here actually done it.

Update: Spoke to someone at Hitachi tech support. According to them, it can only be taken apart for servicing - not for moving purposes. Guess I'm stuck. Thanks for the replies.

Bull pucky. They are just trying to keep you out of your unit, for obvious reasons. Doesn't matter what the purpose is, if you can take your set apart for one purpose you can take it apart for another.


b

Update: Spoke to someone at Hitachi tech support. According to them, it can only be taken apart for servicing - not for moving purposes. Guess I'm stuck. Thanks for the replies.

I have the 51" model and no it doesn't come apart like the manual states. This only applies to the 57" and up models.

That could explain a lot. Looks like the 51" only comes apart in certain ways for servicing, and not in half for transport, like the bigger ones do.


b

Yes, the 51" can come apart, but the 57/65's are set up for the owner to easily separate the 2 halves.

I moved my 51" hitachi from 1st to second floor. I took it apart by:

1. Removed the screen with frame. Unscrewed the front control panel from the case and tucked it in side.

2. Took off the back panel and then removed all screws holding the CRT / electronics cage/box and uplugged the speaker wires from the speakers. Then the whole assembly slid out in one piece, along with the front control panel, very slick like.

3. So basically I had 4 pieces to carry. 1 the screen and frame, 2 the CRT cage/box. 3. The whole 1 piece Tv, and the back panel. Did it with a helper. Made everything much lighter, and put it back together. Overall from start to finish took maybe 45 minutes. Everything went back together easy and didnt have to touch up convergence at all.

Awesome! Yeah, they make that light box capable of being removed in case a tech needs to cart it down to his shop for repair. They got tired of lugging in the entire set long ago. I used to do that, I drove the van for the shop and lugged in countless big screens for repair, long before the advent of HD. Then lugged them back again...

Once they saw that HD was here to stay and not going away, they put on their thinking caps and came up with the removable light box.

LIghtens things up like you would not believe, huh!

;)

b

This was my set, pre tweaked, and even this shot is faaaaaaar softer than what I was seeing when I took it. I'm going to try and get this same shot, as well as a few others as soon as possible.

The Fifth Element
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a100/lordcloud/6th.jpg

This was my set, pre tweaked, and even this shot is faaaaaaar softer than what I was seeing when I took it...

What do you mean by pre tweaked?

What have you done to it?

I just finished doing mine, with help from Mr. Bob. Oh what a feeling.

I took some meter measurements that I'll post at a later time.

Bob was great! and the result is very nice. Very please and satisfied customer. :):D

What do you mean by pre tweaked?

What have you done to it?

I just finished doing mine, with help from Mr. Bob. Oh what a feeling.

I took some meter measurements that I'll post at a later time.

Bob was great! and the result is very nice. Very please and satisfied customer. :):D

This was before I did my grayscale correctly, which means before my color decoding was done correctly. Before blacking out the insides with cloth and before some of the SM tweaks like ColorG being turned off. It's a pretty old shot.

So what did Bob do differently, or improve, on your set?

This is something I would like to do one of these days soon. I believe it basically involves coating the optics. Less lens flare and better contrast.

http://www.dgibbons.members.sonic.net/essay7.html

This was before I did my grayscale correctly, which means before my color decoding was done correctly. Before blacking out the insides with cloth and before some of the SM tweaks like ColorG being turned off. It's a pretty old shot.

So what did Bob do differently, or improve, on your set?

First thing Leo and I did, because it was nighttime when I arrived, was to check the grayscale. We really didn't want to do anything till Monday morning because I arrived in San Antonio on Saturday night, but I knew at a glance that the viewing room would not sustain an accurate grayscale op in the daytime. I could not contain myself, I said we absolutely had to at least get that op out of the way right then and there.

So I took out my ISF Optical comparator, fired it up and observed the VE Pluge grayscale pattern on it. The differences I woulda made in his grayscale alignment were so insignificant that we chaulked them up to the fact that each of the analyzers you use gives you a slightly different reading from the others anyway. We left his grayscale op alone, it was perfect. He did a great job on it!

I also used a pillow to push in on the screen with the AVIA SD grid pattern up, and showed him how off his focusing was. But that correction would be for another day.

Sunday he took his wife and me to the IMAX to watch Avatar, which I had only seen in digital 3D so far. It was immense to say the least, and really pushes the state of the art to new levels...

Monday we tore into that focusing, which we found to be off on all 3 colors. He had apologized for that already, since he had not applied the Cantilever Technique but had instead simply reached in there and twisted each lens till it looked right. With the Cantilever Technique I showed him how much still needed to be done, and we went there straightaway.

With the optical focusing now nailed, I checked the elec focusing and it was totally OK, so we left that as it was also.

He had already done the shimming op, so there was no overscan to worry about. However, the first thing he pointed out was a speedbump in the lower right corner, where words would travel across the screen on certain news programs. So I redid his geometry, which was actually pretty far off all over the screen even tho he had used cut straws to try to keep the hor and vert lines of the boxes all the same size.

After that was all corrected on all 3 colors, I commenced to tighten up the convergence. The set was thoroughly warmed up by then, so no problems there.

The last thing needed was the color decoding. He didn't know that the blue color bars pattern he was using - same one used on the blue in AVIA - could not be used for red and green, and as such had not been able to dial them in and couldn't figure out why. I pointed out that the red and green needed their own color bars patterns unless you use patterns that will do all 3. Since my Accupel does contain a pattern that works for all 3, we used that instead. It finally all fell into place, and with color iso, each color blends in about as good as it gets.

He now has perfect color linearity, sizzling geometry, supertight high precision convergence, fully dialed in focus, and in general a picture to die for.

And as stated, is happy!

:cool:

It was fun. He and his family were incredible hosts, and I value my days there as more a vacation than work!

;)

b

This is something I would like to do one of these days soon. I believe it basically involves coating the optics. Less lens flare and better contrast.

http://www.dgibbons.members.sonic.net/essay7.html

If you're going to go to all that work, may as well coat each lens on both sides also, like they do in the high precision mircoscopes and telescopes. The internal reflections caused by the lenses reflecting back at each other are also really distracting, and cause lens flare. But coating them - "Coated Optics" is what many of the finer binocs have printed on them - is too expensive an op for the manufacturers to even think about doing on production models.


b

...

And as stated, is happy!

:cool:

It was fun. He and his family were incredible hosts, and I value my days there as more a vacation than work!

;)

b

It was fun for me too Bob! my pleasure.

I tighten things up a little last night; made circles perfect (or close to perfect), and made color midpoint in user and realigned (correctly this time) the colors. I took measurements of before and after, and that was my main reason to tighten things up. According to the readings grayscale was just a tad off from acceptable deltas, so I touched it up. And as we all know by now... if you change grayscale color changes so I checked color too. This time the readings shows that all colors, including secondaries are more into place than before.

When I talked to my wife this morning, and I mentioned that I've been playing with the TV, she commented that if I had messed it up, she would called Bob personally to let him know that I've had ruined his work. :eek:
But happy to inform NOT so. I'll post the results and screen shots shortly.

Again... it was fun and a pleasure working with Bob, if anyone needs help doing any of these I would recommend him. Thanks Bob.

I just hope the correct patterns were used if you changed the color and tint midpoints, Leo. Blue pattern only. If only the blue was changed and the red and green color decoding regs were left alone, where I set them during that decoding op, I am sure we are back in great shape, and that all is well.

You have a VERY good wife, BTW, you are a very lucky man...

:p


b

For those of you curious to know what Mr. Bob did to my set on his recent trip to Texas.

The recap is towards the middle of the page.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...1129800&page=6

It was a great experience and lots of fun having Bob over. I would recommend Bob to anyone looking to calibrate their tv. Thanks Bob.

I am getting some green in my dark regions currently I am backing out some of my tweaks. It is worst on the hdmi so I am going to kill the hdmi fix also as a test. Any other suggestions. The set is approaching 3 years old. It is not impossable that I hit the wrong setting but I was very carfull and kept notes.

I am getting some green in my dark regions currently I am backing out some of my tweaks. It is worst on the hdmi so I am going to kill the hdmi fix also as a test. Any other suggestions. The set is approaching 3 years old. It is not impossable that I hit the wrong setting but I was very carfull and kept notes.

if you are getting green on your blacks or whites, is not from your tweaks, or not from all of them anyways. Your grayscale is off and it has too much green in the dark areas (from 0 IRE to 40 IRE). Did you change any of the dirives or cuts?

R-DRV
G-DRV
R-CUT
G-CUT
B-CUT

if you did that is what you need to bring back. The HDMI fix has no effect to anything else other than doing away with the freek-outs of the set going all green or purple or turning itself off.

I have a copy of the 57F59 service Manuel but I have the 65F59. So I went throught the defaults and was not able to locate the defaults for:

R-DRV
G-DRV
R-CUT
G-CUT
B-CUT

I did notice my Sub Bright=77 was different and the White Bal High Catagory was different
G DRV HIGH =30
R DRV HIGH =13
R CUT HIGH =84
G CUT HIGH =7F
B CUT HIGH =96

I tryed the defaults and it added red shift. So ther must be a reason for the difference. Everything else was spot on! Any sugestions?

ATAD IO,

Are you viewing your set with your user menu, not the service menu, in High?
Did you try your Std or Med Setting in the user menu? I see you are looking at the High menu grayscale adjustments, so I guess you are using the High setting in the user menu too, which will give you overall grayscale a higher (bluer) coler temp/ grayscale. Std in the user menu should get you closer to 6500 color temp, so it may balance out you low level grayscale so you dont see greens but grays.

If you have to adjust the service menu items try keep you green drv and green cuts to factory default of 7F and 3F. use the red or blue to balance out you green, I believe you should use green cuts and drives as a reference point first.

Its next to impossible to eyeball this, a color meter and HCFR would really make this a pretty easy fix. I eyeballed mine for years, took care of the red in grayscale, then then green in grayscale, thought I was good. Got a sensor and used HCFR, I wasnt close eyeballing it. My HDTV was on earth but my grayscale was on Pluto, yep thats how close I was even though I had no reds or greens in my lower grayscale.

I agree. You need a valid D6500K reference gray at the very least, to have accuracy in your grayscale. JUST eyeballing it without a valid reference is impossible, as Joe Kane stated in one of his earliest works, the laserdisc version of A Video Standard.

Our eyes get "loaded" in certain directions, by the light around us. The cones, I believe; I think the rods are the luminance and the cones the chrominance, tho I could be backwards on that.

The reference when compared to the grayscale pattern shows us those discrepancies, and keeps our visual perception "cleaned" by being able to disregard that "loading" and shift the colorations in the display around, sometimes back and forth - from cuts to drives and back per color, sometimes over and over, like is done with an analyzer - till a correct matchup to the reference gray is obtained.

The only difference between analyzers and observed color comparation of a display's grayscale pattern to the reference gray of an optical comparator is the numerical aspects given on color analyzers, and the analyzer displays and graphics used to demo what color needs to be increased or decreased, to achieve the target reference gray.

The actual changes in the registers of the display, on this quest for D6500K, are the same in both cases.


b

I agree again with you too, Bob

ATAD IO,

You have a super nice set. I imagine that it works 100% Even if you eyeball your grayscale, you will be off. If you are going to get that lucky and be close by eyeballing it, run out and buy a lottery ticket too.

Not trying to scare you off, but you may get your blacks looking black but you will be off. Take it from someone who bought his Hitachi in Jan 2003 and played and played with it with calibration dvds and my eyeballs. 6 years later I bought my Spyder II. After one long afternoon I took care of what 6 years of constant fiddling never did. Everyone here has been there too.

I am sold, No need to try to eyeball it. I will check for some tools.

I am sold, No need to try to eyeball it. I will check for some tools.

Start here:
http://www.curtpalme.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10457

I agree again with you too, Bob

ATAD IO,

You have a super nice set. I imagine that it works 100% Even if you eyeball your grayscale, you will be off. If you are going to get that lucky and be close by eyeballing it, run out and buy a lottery ticket too.

Not trying to scare you off, but you may get your blacks looking black but you will be off. Take it from someone who bought his Hitachi in Jan 2003 and played and played with it with calibration dvds and my eyeballs. 6 years later I bought my Spyder II. After one long afternoon I took care of what 6 years of constant fiddling never did. Everyone here has been there too.


What are your thought on the Eye 1 2 vs Spyder3?

I just added some stuff to my last post, above. Fleshed it out a little.

b

What are your thought on the Eye 1 2 vs Spyder3?

For those wondering the differences between the SpyderII and the Eye-One.

LastButNotLeast did a very nice comparison of the two sensors here towards the end of the page. He has the data on a PDF document.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=786966&page=105

Then I have some numbers of my own findings.

hi all.

I have had my set (59") since summer 2008 and I have enjoyed it to some extent. I have done the service menu tweaks and have been using the usual suggested PQ settings. I even purchased Avia to put those settings to the test and have found very little to change from the patterns and tests.

However, all this time I have been kind of displeased with the tv set sharpness. Sharpness was at 30 on my set and even if I pusshed it close to the limit according to Avia (like 50-60) before having atifacts, I didn't find much improvment. It was particularly bad in a corner of the tv where the red couldn't focus effectively. Making the hud of some games barelly readable.

I never tried the edge enhancment until last week. O M G. I don't know exactly that there are any downsides to using Edge Enhancment on this tv set. People seemed to just disqualifie it and I never even tried to use it based on this thread. I can't believe the difference in PQ to my eyes. Its like looking at some blurred photos compared to some 12mbit perfect shot from a tripod. I have tried to see any sides effect to pushing that feature to the max (high) and haven't been able to find any.

So my question is, how is this setting collectively percieved as bad ? Is it because people that go to the extent of manually adjusting the tv from the inside don't have to use this in order to get sharp images ? Does it really have a downside effect ?

Everything I throw at the tv benefits immensively from the edge enhancment. Be it a blu-ray, a ps3/360 game, a lowly SD feed from the super nintendo. Its does such a difference I just have problem understanding why it could be bad.

My mind is blown. I have the impression I lost 2 years of complete enjoyment of this fine TV.

I should add before anyone mentions it that I have done electronical focus on the red/blue with the XX point pattern available in the TV menu. In the afformentioned corner where focus was a real issue, the red was very loose. However, using Edge Enhancment has erradicated any form of bluriness for game huds located in that corner.

I never tried the edge enhancment until last week. O M G. I don't know exactly that there are any downsides to using Edge Enhancment on this tv set. People seemed to just disqualifie it and I never even tried to use it based on this thread. I can't believe the difference in PQ to my eyes. Its like looking at some blurred photos compared to some 12mbit perfect shot from a tripod. I have tried to see any sides effect to pushing that feature to the max (high) and haven't been able to find any.

Well I'm not sure what tweaks you have done or not but I do disagree with your findings as they apply to my set. I too originally felt my set could not be sharp without EE. It took a lot of time and tweaking to get it to the point where it looks just as sharp without EE than with. EE to me just adds an artificial noise around the edges. IF you go to the sharpness test pattern in DVE Essentials you can see it clearly. Its been so long since I even turned on EE I can't remember it. I will try it again but I already know the outcome.

Sharpness is comprised of 2 potential alterations of your images - one is video dulling, for things like noise on weak OTA TV stations, the other is false edging, or edge enhancement, which makes your images easier to see from a distance but kinda does a number on the accuracy of your images when you like to sit up close and personal with your display, like I do. The Screenshot War thread had a couple of examples recently of with and without ee using a scene of the Joker's mask, from the latest Batman flick. Viewing it will show you why too much ee is NOT good.

Video dulling is usually on the left hand side of the bargraph, or decreasing from midpoint, while ee is usually on the right hand side, increasing from midpoint.
If your display ONLY has video dulling, like my Advent pj of many years ago, the "Detail" control needed to remain wide open - full up - on nice sharp video material like a C band sat. There was no ee back then. This was actually right there in the owner's manual.

The midpoint position on Sharpness is often the only place on the dial where neither of these alterations is involved with your set. That's where I keep mine on my 73", which is what Craig Rounds recommends, esp. when you're doing his ee modification on suitably equipped Mits's.

The midpoint position assures the least amount of invasiveness of the ee circuitry to your signal on most Sharpness bargraphs, and definitely on the Mits's.

Simply making blanket statements like "turn all ee off", or "never crank it up", is misleading and counterproductive. ee must be tested for, to see if you actually want to be using it in your setup or not, and how much if so. Runco trained us on their pjs to have just enough ee to make lettering appear correct. They didn't have any problem with using SOME ee, just didn't want us going overboard.


b

Thanks Mr. Bob,

I was actually able to see some side effect on a very poor feed. It was a cartoon that I had compressed very hard to fit on a 400meg file (about 90min). When I pushed EE to the max, I could very easily see some black line double in thickness. There was also a bit of noise appearing along those edges. Relaxing EE a notch did remove the noises and still gave an acceptably clean picture.

Thanks for your comment, I guess I now feel more at ease with leaving some EE on my screen.

Last question, when watching strong feed (HD material), I haven't noticed any noise or deformation of any lines. However I've always tested this setting under still images. Does EE have a negative effect on motion pictures that I wouldn't normally see on a frozen picture ?

Thanks for the much appreciated infos.

On my year 2000 65" Panny, the Sharpness is completely out of circuit on HD. It is only effective on SD. Where it is set at makes no difference on HD.

On my Mit, User sh still has an effect in HD.

In sm, you have a choice between 0-3, 4 setting choices total. Factory is always 2, and I always set it to 1 instead. I don't put it at zero at all, it softens things up too much.

Some brands are different from others.

There should be no difference between frozen and moving images.


b

Well low and behold, I've put back STRGA to 10 and now I get the best picture with EE set to low.
To achieve the same result with STRGA to 00, I needed to push it to high. However, I think the picture is even better with a combination of STRGA to 10 (default value for my set) and EE to low.

I'm now very happy with my set. Text is easy to read even in the unfocused lower left corner where the red beam is problematic.

When I have had the set for 10 year, I think I'll have the guts to tinker with the innards. Or maybe manual convergence. *Gulp*

Well low and behold, I've put back STRGA to 10 and now I get the best picture with EE set to low.
To achieve the same result with STRGA to 00, I needed to push it to high. However, I think the picture is even better with a combination of STRGA to 10 (default value for my set) and EE to low.

I'm now very happy with my set. Text is easy to read even in the unfocused lower left corner where the red beam is problematic.

When I have had the set for 10 year, I think I'll have the guts to tinker with the innards. Or maybe manual convergence. *Gulp*

If you haven't clean the mirror and optics for that long, that is the first thing you need to do.

You'll have a like new picture all over again.

If you haven't clean the mirror and optics for that long, that is the first thing you need to do.

You'll have a like new picture all over again.

Yea that was what I was saying about the EE and sharpness debate.. Once you tweak your set right (and that can be different each set) then you really dont need EE or at best on Low. I have mine on low now just because you brought it up and I wanted to try it again. Its good on HD programming but for me there is almost no diff on a good HD movie or Blu-Ray. Either way LOW is about as far as I want to go because I see the noise even slightly and it bothers me. Thanks for opening that debate back up because its nice to try things again and tweak all over, and over and over...:p

I woke up today and turned on my 50" and it started beeping at me and all the lights on the front flashed...bulb, temp and power. No sound or picture, do I need a new bulb or could it be the color wheel.

I woke up today and turned on my 50" and it started beeping at me and all the lights on the front flashed...bulb, temp and power. No sound or picture, do I need a new bulb or could it be the color wheel.

Well this is a CRT forum and not DLP but I think I can answer it. My in laws Sony did the same thing and it was the bulb. So I suggest you check a DLP forum first and then proceed.

I am collecting my supplies for some updating.
1. Spray away.
2. Black cloth.
3. Spyder 3 + HCFR
4. Lent free wiping cloth.

I was going to skip the overscan mod but I dvr'd the hdnet bars and looked at them and here is my factory over scan.
Left 12%
Top 6%
Bottom 8%
Right 14%

This seems atrocious any tips from someone that recently DYI'ed the shimming technique? What to use for shims? Didn't realize the oscan was so bad until I payed attention. Seems like I have some resolution to gain. Single owner set about 3yrs old contrast always below 35%. I will do the works while inside.

Thanks.

I am collecting my supplies for some updating.
1. Spray away.
2. Black cloth.
3. Spyder 3 + HCFR
4. Lent free wiping cloth.

I was going to skip the overscan mod but I dvr'd the hdnet bars and looked at them and here is my factory over scan.
Left 12%
Top 6%
Bottom 8%
Right 14%

This seems atrocious any tips from someone that recently DYI'ed the shimming technique? What to use for shims? Didn't realize the oscan was so bad until I payed attention. Seems like I have some resolution to gain. Single owner set about 3yrs old contrast always below 35%. I will do the works while inside.

Thanks.

I wonder if thats right because that is indeed a lot of O Scan. Most people just used 1 by 1 wood blocks. That way you can do some trial and error. Each block being 3/4 of an inch in thickness you can try different levels to see where yours is going to work best at. I would start at 1 1/2, though you will have more room to go. I'm right below 2" on mine.

Keep in mind that the HDnet pattern is flawed on its overscan markings. Study the numbers, you'll see some are missing.

The only way to really know for sure is to get the HD version of DVE and check its overscan pattern. That way your measurements will match all of ours.

The best shims I have found to use are the simple toy building blocks set from Toys R Us. They appear to be exactly 1" cubed, and therefore allow for exactness. Glue them together in the little stack each will form before installing the 4 pillars, they are a lot easier to handle that way. Use Elmer's or any good wood glue and ideally clamp them for drying, which only takes 20-30 minutes while you make other preps, like removing the screws that hold the array onto its carrier in there, and finding longer screws/bolts to replace the originals. Or just use a rubber band to keep together however many you're using per pillar, for the drying.

Remember that the up to down positioning of your images on your viewscreen is handled NOT by raising or lowering the array, which affects the size of your pic only and is what the shimming op is all about, but by moving the array forward and back from the viewscreen, on the horizontal plane.

That makes the pic go up and down, on your viewscreen. Side to side is pretty self-explanatory.

Before you start -

Be sure your DVE Overscan pattern is accurately centered on your viewscreen BEFORE you launch into moving things around in there and beginning the actual op. Then when you're done shimming, you can recenter it again effortlessly.


b

ATAD IO,

Your overscan doesnt sound right. Are you in 1080i, 16:9 zoom format? You'll also need to burn a copy of this for hcfr from this link:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=948496

You burn with a std dvd but the tests are blu-ray. I know its magic!

All the tests on the dvd are in order for hcfr. makes it a snap, also a nice overscan test too.

Dont worry about doing hcfr until you shim, focus and converge, save hcfr and the service menu changes for last or you'll have to do it again. Get you set physically set up first. It will save you from doing your isf calibration all over again.

Whenever you do the shimming op, remember you'll need to refocus optically. It's subtle and really doesn't show up markedly, at a glance it looks like nothing will have changed. But you'll definitely be out of ideal focus if you don't, once you've changed your throw distance. To have crystal clear razor sharp images, it's imperative to refocus each and every lens after the shimming op, as each will have shifted by exactly the same amount. And then redo your geo/conv paradigm

Leo found this out the hard way! It was many moons before I got over to San Antonio and got his focusing dialed in perfectly, after he had done his own shimming op. He had a reasonably good pic all that time of course, but nothing like he has now.

Of course for optical focusing I recommend the Cantilever Technique.

;)


b

A quick check with the chfr test pattern shows L+R 5.5% T+B 5%. So not as bad as I was measuring. How many lines of additional display resolution can we add by compressing the pixel density? If I am not mistaken that is what the purpose is for this tweak? Besides reclaiming some image lost. What is the most optimistic goal L+R 3% T+B 2%?

Pixel density that shows up in your images can be increased by reducing the o'scan by sm method only. The shim op is for using more of the CRT face, which allows for more spaciousness in your images. More depth. It's really not measurable, but your eyes can see it. It gets you the increased pixel density as well, but has the perk of the spaciousness of the images being increased. This added spaciousness allows you to actually be able to sit closer to your display, giving you a net bigger picture to see, and sink into and get immersed in.

The %'s quoted are what my display renders. I don't see any need for any more - any less, actually - than that. Any less and you get convergence feathering at the sides that becomes objectionable and distracting. At the levels here, at least that level of feathering stays innocuous and unnoticed during regular viewing.

b

ATAD IO,

Keep us posted on your progress. I'd like to see before and after HCFR zip files! Good Tweaking to you!