The HDNet test pattern is great for geometry and linearity and possibly even image placement, but don't trust it for overscan. If you take it all the way in to where you can see its edges, the numbers have stopped at the edge of the image, several steps before they have hitting zero.

The circle is great for making sure your HD image shaping is correct, tho. Very few - only the most expensive - HD pattern gen'rs contain circles, because their programs are so hard to write, in terms of CG pattern generation.


Mr Bob

I've already done my overscan to the limit (before I get buffer overflow errors), just curious about the tests in general. Sounds like it'll be interesting.


The crosshatch on that was brighter than Avia's 50 IRE, but surely more usefull than the internal DCAM crosshatch.

The Avia DVD is in my Netflix que. So I'll definitely be using it:)

The Avia DVD is in my Netflix que. So I'll definitely be using it:)


Nice, thin lines at mid light level are best for convergence, and most accurately replicate the average light levels of real world viewing.


Mr Bob

(Its me, formerly Confusednoob... )

That's how I enter DCAM, the "soft" method via remote control. And I also have to key in TV-0-1 at least once before TV-Menu-Info to get the remote going in DCAM.

I also noticed that DCAM convergence and user 117pt convergence are not identical. So I did my last alignment (been awhile) in user 117pt and then just wrote the data in DCAM with no modifications, even though eyeballing the DCAM grid it showed slightly off in a few areas even though it was spot-on in user 117pt a minute earlier. But, the real world program material and content looks good so who cares.

One thing I fiind curious, is Hitachi in the service manual says to set contrast to 100, select color temp HIGH, and everything else at 50 before doing any manual convergence work. I never do that. I leave contrast at my usual 35 - 40 brightness at my usual 53 - 58, and leave color temp on medium or standard. Eyeballing the grid is hard enough on my eyes at 35 - 40 contrast... 100 and I'd be seeing the grid everywhere I went the next day.





Unless someone beats me to it, I'll take a picture of mine and post it.

However, I NEVER use the blue button anymore. You can actually access DCAM mode from the remote. The following steps are from the DIY guide:



a. Press and Hold TV key on remote then press ASPECT, then 9. (puts remote in LINE ADJUST mode)
b. Press STOP key (bottom of remote, has black square on it) to enter DYNAMIC ADJUST mode.
c. Change Remote to DCU mode: TV + MENU + INFO


Sometimes, I have found that I need to do the "return remote to 'normal'" procedure (hold TV and press 0 than 1, then release TV) before this works.

...remainder snipped to keep reply size smaller...

I have 3 questions for you guys, 1) I know i saw this talk about some where but what should i use to clean the screen with. 2) Can i use a dvd to calib. the white bal high med and std? Also im a little confused about how to fix the overscan, this is done in DCAM Mode, or is it the H and V position?

One thing I fiind curious, is Hitachi in the service manual says to set contrast to 100, select color temp HIGH, and everything else at 50 before doing any manual convergence work. I never do that. I leave contrast at my usual 35 - 40 brightness at my usual 53 - 58, and leave color temp on medium or standard. Eyeballing the grid is hard enough on my eyes at 35 - 40 contrast... 100 and I'd be seeing the grid everywhere I went the next day.


Hitachi also lists D10,500K as its only target color temp, for HIGH, in its service manual.

Go figure...

:rolleyes:

Mr Bob

I have 3 questions for you guys, 1) I know i saw this talk about some where but what should i use to clean the screen with. 2) Can i use a dvd to calib. the white bal high med and std? Also im a little confused about how to fix the overscan, this is done in DCAM Mode, or is it the H and V position?


You have good questions, and I am going to stay reserved on answering them, because the afficianados here are great. I'll let them handle that.

I will say not to EVER touch your screen with ANYTHING - including hands and fingers - if you can possibly avoid it. A DRY terrycloth towel rubbed lightly in the direction of the vertical ribs is all you should ever need, unless you get into trouble. It does not attract dirt or dust on its own, on the side that faces you.

Cleaning the optics has nothing to do with cleaning the screen.

STD is all you'll ever need, forget about all the others if you are intending to attain D6500K. And yes you can use a DVD for the DVD scanrate, but not the HD scanrate. If you are running component, you can disco Pb and Pr and run strictly Y, for empirical b/w, which you can set HD grayscale with.

For other questions about grayscale and optics cleaning, there are substantial learning curves. If you can't find the info anywhere else, I am available for phone consultation.


Mr Bob

Confused about DCAM

I was wondering if someone might be willing to provide a 1 paragraph high level overview of DCAM (to supplement the step by step in the DIY guide)

What is it?

What does it do?

Is it hard?

Is it worth it?

I see references to a screen jig overlay. Is having that a necessary part of doing a DCAM convergence or is that just to fix geometry problems?

Thanks

It does not attract dirt or dust on its own, on the side that faces you.




Mr Bob


I bet that doesn't apply to smoke? Although I have gently wiped it down with a soft damp cloth and haven't seen any residue, I've had the set for a month.

Confused about DCAM

I was wondering if someone might be willing to provide a 1 paragraph high level overview of DCAM (to supplement the step by step in the DIY guide)

What is it?

What does it do?

Is it hard?

Is it worth it?

I see references to a screen jig overlay. Is having that a necessary part of doing a DCAM convergence or is that just to fix geometry problems?

Thanks

As someone who has only done it once, it's not hard in one sense. You bring up the screen, you press the joystick direction keys to move the lines around. It can be difficult to know exactly where to position the lines and it takes practice to get it right. I'm still working on it. I find the best thing to do at first is to move the dotted red or blue lines about 4-5 clicks. Then you can clearly see the position of the line as it will be clearly seperated from the white line. Then you move them back to try and "hide" the red or blue. Once you get an idea of what you are doing you don't have to move them as far away to see where they are.

It's not hard to get the lines so that there is no obvious red or blue showing. To get them really tight takes more practice.

Assuming you are able to do a decent job, it is definitly worth it. I would suggest starting just in the center of the screen. You can go back later for the corners and the very edges. The main thing it takes is patience, it can take a while to do, and I find that after about 15 minutes things start to get a little blurry.

I have not used any overlays, I don't think you need them for convergence. But I have learned not to use the TVs pattern, tonight I will redo mine using DVE (I finally found my missing disc).

Confused about DCAM

I was wondering if someone might be willing to provide a 1 paragraph high level overview of DCAM (to supplement the step by step in the DIY guide)

What is it?

What does it do?

Is it hard?

Is it worth it?

I see references to a screen jig overlay. Is having that a necessary part of doing a DCAM convergence or is that just to fix geometry problems?

Thanks

I've learned more about DCAM in the last week or so (thanks both to my personal experiences and the invaluable advice and tips from Mr Bob) than I ever had in the 6-odd years I've been a Hitachi CRT RPTV owner. Hope this helps you.


What is it?

DCAM is the service level convergence/geometry adjustment mode.

What does it do?

Allows service tech (or in our case, the user ;) ) to adjust picture convergence and geometry and commit adjusted settings to the TV's ROM memory.

Is it hard?

Define "hard" ;) . Actually, if you have done the 117pt manual MF adjustment, you've done similar work already. However, thru DCAM, you can be more "accurate" in convergence adjs. With DCAM you can rely less on the set's own crosshatch pattern (really only good for geometry settings) and utilize outside generated program material (calibration DVD patterns, actual video images) to get convergence nice and tight across the screen. According to Mr Bob, the ability to display program material while in DCAM mode is a fairly new thing for Hitachi. Older models made you stick with the internal grid only. You had to exit DCAM to see if your adjustments were good. On the F59s, you can access whatever video is being pumped into the currently selected input source (decide which one you will use PRIOR to entering DCAM) by pressing MENU on the F59 remote while in DCAM until video appears on screen. First, it will appear with the DCAM crosshatch over it, then more pressing of MENU will display the the small "crosshairs" to move and target specific areas for convergence work.

Unless you know that you have "geometry" errors ("Waves" or "speedbumps" in panning images---scrolling end credits from movies are a good test for horzontal geo errors, for example), DO NOT ADJUST GREEN!!!! Consider green as your convergence "skeleton" if you will. However, if overscan is adjusted, some green adjustments will be needed to fix the geometry errors (esp. on the edges) that such adjustments initially cause.

Using the screen jig will help for geometry, however you will be tied to the Hitachi "factory spec" overscan levels. If you wish to reign in overscan (factory spec is 5-5.5% left/right--about 4% top/bottom) a screen jig will be useless for geometry. Lowering overscan will "shrink" your internal DCAM grid and screen jigs will be useless. I used a jig to get geo. back after my first failed overscan reduction attempt. Second--and successful--overscan reduction was done by adjusting geometry to both AVIA crosshatch grids and various video images (end credits, panning still images, etc). Again, this is where having input source video on screen during DCAM is virtually a neccessity. My set's overscan current lies btwn4-4.5% left/right and slightly less than 4% top/bottom.

If you were to look at my set's 117pt internal crosshatch, you'd think my PQ must be crap. Several alignment errors on red and blue-esp left vertical blue line---totally "off". Yet, see actual TV or DVD material with the same apparently "out of whack" convergence? Tight and solid across the board! Always use actual video or lower brightness crosshatch grid material (again, Avia's 50 IRE crosshatch is a good one to use) over the set's own grid.

Another tip from Bob. In his experience, he's found that Hitachis tend to not "remember" DCAM settings written to ROM on the first pass. Why, I don't know or if it's even a case on the F59s. I have followed his advice, however, and I do a DCAM pass, write it, exit, check it against video material then reneter DCAM again and repeat. Usually after 4-5 "ROM WRITE" passes, your settings should stick. After that, any future minor adjustments should only require a single pass. (Right, Bob?)

My convergence hasn't drifted yet, altough I'm sure it will a little bit over time--just a fact of life. When it comes time to make minor adjustmetns again, I will always use the DCAM mode of using actual outside video to make my fixes-----I'll never use the internal grid again!

Is it worth it?

If you want the most out of your F59 PQ potential.......ABSOLUTELY!

If you are happy with your PQ now, leave it alone. If you aren't, or just think it could get better, do it. And if you have any questions about this stuff, you know that you can find some answers here on this thread!


Hope this was at least a tad helpful. Of course, the nuts and bolts of doing DCAM are listed elsewhere on this thread.

Mike,

What's the advantage of this over the user menu 117 pt convergence? Is it more precise? More stable?

Thanks.

Mark

I bet that doesn't apply to smoke? Although I have gently wiped it down with a soft damp cloth and haven't seen any residue, I've had the set for a month.


Never seen a plastic lenticular gather smoke, no.

I have seen just water leave watermarks on the screen that were impossible for me to get out. My new 73" Mit still has some small finger marks on the sides of its screen, where the guys from the local entity Tweeter sent out, touched my screen by being at its sides while bringing it in over my 2 step threshold.

I am afraid to touch them at this point, they are too small and innocuous to require my attention, with what could happen permanently to my screen as a result. My Panny still has an oil mark up in the right corner, and a watermark in the center of the screen where I tried very carefully to eradicate a very innocent-looking mark.

Fortunately neither are visible in the pic when the set is on, but do show up when the set is off.


Mr Bob

Water leaves permanent marks on the screen? Oh boy! My 14 month old loves to put his hands on it (whack it actually). It's only a matter of time before I find little peanut butter handprints on it. I guess I'd better look at getting a kid fence real quick.

Water leaves permanent marks on the screen? Oh boy! My 14 month old loves to put his hands on it (whack it actually). It's only a matter of time before I find little peanut butter handprints on it. I guess I'd better look at getting a kid fence real quick.


Water is innocent compared to hand and finger grease. Peanut butter oils??? Forget it!


Mr Bob

Mike,

What's the advantage of this over the user menu 117 pt convergence? Is it more precise? More stable?

Thanks.

Mark

Yes. Details are above from Mr Bob. Or maybe it's in the other thread

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=687477&page=116&pp=30

jwebb would you happen to know which DVE pattern to use, or is there only one.

I hate naviagating that disc, and even if I find several grids I don't think one will be labelled 50IRE.

Mike,

What's the advantage of this over the user menu 117 pt convergence? Is it more precise? More stable?

Thanks.

Mark

I would stick with the user 117 point unless you are just dying to try DCAM, or as mentioned unless you have Avia Guide to Home Theater DVD for the 50 IRE pattern which is mentioned as a better choice for convergence work. Once you write to ROM in DCAM, the RESET (reset to factory convergence spec) option that's available (RESET, DONE, CANCEL) when you exit from user 117 point manual convergence no longer works. Nada. Zilch. Zippo.

Ok. First post, although I've been reading the Hitachi threads with vigor and I'm looking at it or one of the panny/pio plasmas.

I'd prefer to get the Hitachi for a few reasons, but I have a worry. The room in which I'd put the hitachi is fairly space limited. The front of my surround system has 2 large floor speakers, which are unshielded. As it is I can have probably less than a foot on each side clearance between what would be the 51" Hitachi and the speakers.

Will a foot or less be enough to keep the Hitachi safe? I can't really open up much more space than that. The speakers would be closest to the "guts" of the tv being on the floor and 1ft or so away from the tv itself.

I have 3 ft tall unshielded speakers by my set, about a 1 1/2 feet from the set. But the guts of the TV don't extend all the way out to the edge of the speaker grill, it's sort of a false front. So if you're speakers are a foot from that edge, they're probably 2 feet from the electronics. The only interference I ever saw was when I briefly sat my center speaker on the floor in front of the TV. You might need to set your speakers off the floor a little, mine already were so I don't know if there would be an effect otherwise.

But I'm just wondering how much better a DCAM convergence is (say, with the 50 IRE Avia crosshatch) vs a careful 117 point user menu convergence. I mean better in the sense of how the picture actually looks. Can you see a difference? Is it more stable? I notice user menu convergence isn't very stable (at least not yet, for me).

Unless someone beats me to it, I'll take a picture of mine and post it.

However, I NEVER use the blue button anymore. You can actually access DCAM mode from the remote. The following steps are from the DIY guide:



a. Press and Hold TV key on remote then press ASPECT, then 9. (puts remote in LINE ADJUST mode)
b. Press STOP key (bottom of remote, has black square on it) to enter DYNAMIC ADJUST mode.
c. Change Remote to DCU mode: TV + MENU + INFO


Sometimes, I have found that I need to do the "return remote to 'normal'" procedure (hold TV and press 0 than 1, then release TV) before this works.

But it sure beats opening up the front of the TV every time you want/need to run a DCAM pass. Although that "blue button" is behind the removable spkr grill. Pull the grill off and remove the six screws that hold the front access panel on (the rectangular piece of particle board). The blue service button is right of center on the circuit boards facing up from the base of the set's insides. Very small, light blue colored button facing forward among the sea of circuits.

As I said, if you don't find it (or someone beats me to it), I'll post a pic of mine.

Or just try the remote mode of DCAM access and not worry about that button.

And mind what I've learned......DCAM alignment perfection on the internal crosshatch grid doesn't always mean perfect convergence for actual program material. When in DCAM, press MENU on the remote. This cycles you thru various DCAM display modes ("white" crosshatch, "Isolated color" crosshatch, crosshatch over input source material and 2 versions of moveable crosshairs over input source material). The crosshatch over program material and the 2 crosshair modes are best for geting convergence tight across the screen when using both actual video (DVD, cable, sat, HD and SD stuff) and static outboard signals like the crosshatch patterns found on AVIA, DVE.....even THX Optimizers (although those are a tad bright, I think).

If you were to look at my set's internal DCAM crosshatch, you'd think that the picture must look awful. Totally misaligned blue on the far left vertical line and minor red/blue errors everywhere else. But look at either regular TV and DVD material (esp. the AVIA 50 IRE crosshatch) and convergence is rock solid.

I found that this is actually even more true if your set's overscan rate has been reduced---although I could be wrong. Certainly seems to be the case with mine.

Thanks jwebb, I actually have used this method to get the TV set into DCAM mode. I get a red grid with yellow to cyan blinking bits. I have NOT however been able to get the remote to respond as indicated in the service manual, even after following the procedure to put the remote in DCU mode. Im glad you found a trick... I will try your "put the remote into normal mode before putting it into DCU mode" technique. I was thinking Hit purposefully changed things to screw me up.. :)

On a side note, and for those curious/following this, mechanical focus adjustment is a snap. I've tightened up the red, and wow what a difference. Just to be thorough I'm going to do the same to green and blue (and maybe do red again). Then of course I'll make the electronic focus adjustments. Of course this means more careful adjustment of convergence but its worth the extra time and effort.

I've noticed when the center is focused, the corners arent and conversely when the corners are focused the center isnt. I've decided that although "perfect" focus in the center is ideal for centered objects, overall picture quality is a balance between a perfect center and perfect corners. To get the most focus in terms of area on the screen, I'm going to make the circle halfway between the corners and the center as focused as possible... then adjust slowly towards more focus in the center ... "to taste".

I love this forum.

peace
Colin

As to the remote, I've never been able to get it to work in DCAM. I just use my Harmony 550, after putting TV into DCAM with the TV remote. And I don't even have to press the DCAM sequence, the joystick just works. If you have a universal, try that if the other method doesn't work.

I hope after my DCAM adjustment tonight I won't have to do focus, but if I do what pattern are you using to adjust it?

By the way, is there any danger at all of a nasty shock while doing focus adjustment?

As to the remote, I've never been able to get it to work in DCAM. I just use my Harmony 550, after putting TV into DCAM with the TV remote. And I don't even have to press the DCAM sequence, the joystick just works. If you have a universal, try that if the other method doesn't work.

I hope after my DCAM adjustment tonight I won't have to do focus, but if I do what pattern are you using to adjust it?

By the way, is there any danger at all of a nasty shock while doing focus adjustment?


I use a finegrid pattern in Displaymate on my PC in 1920x1080i. Displaymate lets you change the color of the grid, which lets you look at each gun separately (for the most part) when adjusting. There also is a dots pattern... which perhaps is what I should have used for focus...

Not sure about shock hazards. I didnt see anything conspicuously dangerous in the are where mechanical focus is adjusted but I wouldnt go touching and reaching everywhere.

when you do a mechanical focus you are sticking your hand in well above the electronics, which are situated below the guns.

when you do a mechanical focus you are sticking your hand in well above the electronics, which are situated below the guns.


"easiest" way to access the mech focus lens barrel "wingnuts" is to remove the screen.... but that kinda cancels out the option of using on screen info for focus, doesn't it? ;)

I've done mine by removing the REAR panel of the TV (the "pegboard" panel). This way you can reach around to the screen-facing side of each lens barrel to access the wingnuts. Not near any major curcuitry that way, so less (won't say NO, don't want any lawsuits :p ) risk of touching anything loaded with voltage. Lens barrels are separated from the internal circuits.

jwebb would you happen to know which DVE pattern to use, or is there only one.

I hate naviagating that disc, and even if I find several grids I don't think one will be labelled 50IRE.


Although I have both DVE and AVIA, I've only really used the AVIA patterns. DVE is really a pain to navigate. And if I recall, it doesn't have crosshatches of varying IRE levels.

AVIA does, however, have them. If locating/buying AVIA is not an option for you, Netflix does have it available for rental. Although you will lack the color filters that come with it when you buy it new.

Colin,

I have the same problem with red focus.

If you remove the front grill you will see on either side of the button panel (the buttons the duplicate the remote functions) is a screw. If you remove these two screws the button panel comes off, buttons and all. It's connected to the inside by wires which are long enough to pull the panel away and look inside. I let the panel hang gently by the wires, it weighs very little, but I suppose it would be better to rig something to rest it on. Note that I am not talking about the rectangle of particle board down below that you remove to get access to the electronic focus control - you can leave that on - but the little panel right under the screen.

Anyway you can look inside the set with the panel removed and you will see the crt gun's cylindrical barrels tilted slightly away from you toward the mirror on the back of the set. If the set is on you can see color leaking out showing which is which, the red gun is on the left. Directly facing you on the side of each gun's lens barrel is a wing nut. If you loosen it you can turn the focus ring at the top of each lens being careful not to touch the lens with your fingers and smudge it. You don't have to move it very much to alter focus. You probably won't turn the ring more than a few milimeters

See Mr. Bob's comments on focusing above.

I plan to do a careful focus of all 3 guns once I get the Avia disk with the recommended cross hatch pattern. Apparently the ones generated by the set are not ideal for this.

I found this to be the easiest way to get to the mechanical focus area. Once I had the big front cover off, I had to unscrew and remove the two small front facing silver panels on either side of the button panel to get at its screws.

But I'm just wondering how much better a DCAM convergence is (say, with the 50 IRE Avia crosshatch) vs a careful 117 point user menu convergence. I mean better in the sense of how the picture actually looks. Can you see a difference? Is it more stable? I notice user menu convergence isn't very stable (at least not yet, for me).

117pt user is fine for minor touchups for most users. I'm not sure, though, if the manual MF adjustments get written to memory the same way as DCAM ones do. DCAM allows you to write ALL changes/corrections to ROM. Absolutely required if you do an overscan reduction. Both to write new parameters to ROM (and not overly stress the conv. ICs) and to correct the inevitable--but totally fixable--geometry errors that occur when doing overscan adjustments.

As I've posted here already, I'm done using ANY MF functions. After my overscan reduction/geometry fixes, the internal crosshatch grid is pretty much useless for me now. Looking at it, there are many parts that appear "out of alignment". However, conv. is super tight when viewing normal video and externally generated crosshatches. Has to do, I logically assume, with the fact that the light from each of the three guns is getting projected and "bent" in slightly different ways to make up the total picture. Those differences seem to become greater as overscan is lowered from factory specs.

Perhaps Mr Bob can confirm/correct my assumption!

Any future conv/geo touchups I do will be done in DCAM, with external video material being displayed.

I did still initialized MF after my last DCAM adjustments, however, and will do so for all future touchups. Just in case MF ever got activated (by someone other than me, of course :D )

Now I'm getting confused. Once you've written the DCAM adjustments to ROM, doesn't MF return the convergence to those settings, even though the grid, if you go into 117 pt, looks incorrect?

That would make the grid useless for any future adjustments, but at least you could MF from time to time.

I'll try DVE tonight. The grids may not be as good as Avia, but probably better than the internal. If it's just as bright, I guess I'll just exit and look for Avia.

there's no reason to remove the peg board on the back to access the crt gun barrels focus rings

I did that at first before I saw a post earlier on this site describing how to get access from the front button panel. Obvious advantage of accessing from the front is you can look at the screen and focus at the same time.

Now I'm getting confused. Once you've written the DCAM adjustments to ROM, doesn't MF return the convergence to those settings, even though the grid, if you go into 117 pt, looks incorrect?

That would make the grid useless for any future adjustments, but at least you could MF from time to time.

"Auto" MF automatically aligns convergence @ 9 points on the screen (same 9 pts in the MF 9pt manual adjustment mode crosshairs). There are 9 sensors in those location in the screen. It is not nearly as accurate as a 117 pt/DCAM adjustment.

I reinitialize MF when doing DCAM simply due to the possibility of auto MF getting accidentally activated from the front panel button (say by a small child). Although this would likely throw off my 117 pt DCAM adjustments, at least it would not be WAY off when I went back to fix it.

Sorry if this is getting confusing. For many, normal MF (either auto or manual) may be fine. Depends on what your eye perceives. The way I have done DCAM adjustments (relying on OUTSIDE video info as opposed to internal DCAM crosshatch) is a method that most, if not all, pro calibrators use. And I credit Mr Bob (again) for sharing this with me.

And it's also not like I go into DCAM mode all the time. I only did this after my recent warranty repair (blue CRT replacement) and my 2nd attempt--and successful--attempt at reducing my set's overscan from factory levels. That was about a week ago. Now I just turn on my F59 and enjoy the killer picture! At this point, I only expect some blue drift as my new blue gun settles in during it's "100 burn in period". Otherwise, shouldn't have any convergence issues for quite some time. It will drift over time and need some attention, I know, but not much.

there's no reason to remove the peg board on the back to access the crt gun barrels focus rings

I did that at first before I saw a post earlier on this site describing how to get access from the front button panel. Obvious advantage of accessing from the front is you can look at the screen and focus at the same time.

Never tried it that way myself. Seems it'd be a tighter fit for the hand to go thru the front via button panel removal. I just went thru the back and made small, incrimental adjustments then looked at the screen. May give the "front" way a shot at some point, just to see if it works out for me.

Just curious...which model do you have? Don't know, but guessing the size of the access behind the button panel may be smaller on the 51 (which I have).

"Auto" MF automatically aligns convergence @ 9 points on the screen (same 9 pts in the MF 9pt manual adjustment mode crosshairs). There are 9 sensors in those location in the screen. It is not nearly as accurate as a 117 pt/DCAM adjustment.

I reinitialize MF when doing DCAM simply due to the possibility of auto MF getting accidentally activated from the front panel button (say by a small child). Although this would likely throw off my 117 pt DCAM adjustments, at least it would not be WAY off when I went back to fix it.

Sorry if this is getting confusing. For many, normal MF (either auto or manual) may be fine. Depends on what your eye perceives. The way I have done DCAM adjustments (relying on OUTSIDE video info as opposed to internal DCAM crosshatch) is a method that most, if not all, pro calibrators use. And I credit Mr Bob (again) for sharing this with me.

And it's also not like I go into DCAM mode all the time. I only did this after my recent warranty repair (blue CRT replacement) and my 2nd attempt--and successful--attempt at reducing my set's overscan from factory levels. That was about a week ago. Now I just turn on my F59 and enjoy the killer picture! At this point, I only expect some blue drift as my new blue gun settles in during it's "100 burn in period". Otherwise, shouldn't have any convergence issues for quite some time. It will drift over time and need some attention, I know, but not much.


My picture looks great. But if I can get it a little better in DCAM (I already have but with the internal pattern) then I will. But you saying that once I do that, pressing MF will alter those settings? It seems contradictory, if a small child pressing the MF button returns the set to pre-DCAM, wouldn't initialzing MF after DCAM do the same thing?

I hope after my DCAM adjustment tonight I won't have to do focus, but if I do what pattern are you using to adjust it?

By the way, is there any danger at all of a nasty shock while doing focus adjustment?

Dude, I would really do the focusing if you're gonna do the DCAM. Doing DCAM correctly is a tedious pain in the butt. If you're gonna do it, I'd seriously recommend doing the focusing 1st. Get some bang for your buck.

EDIT: P.S. I don't wanna be left out on the DVE hate. The person who created that menu system should be permanently banned from EVER created another menu system for the rest of their life.

At the very least, go in there with a big black Sharpie, if you don't want to do the duve. That alone produces marvelous results in terms of reducing internal reflections. I believe there's lots of bare metal in there, but have not been inside of a Hit lately, so can't say for sure. If so, black Sharpie administration is a must, ASAP.

Bob,

Saw this on the Hit F710 thread. I have obviously heard of (and believe that Lee Bailey, at least, has done) the duvetyne mod on the F59 series.

Can't say I'm experiencing much, if any, internal reflections. Or at least just not noticing them much. Only very occasionally, if ever, when watching in total darkness-but don't do that too much anyway. However, doesn't a duvetyne--or big black Sharpie--mod also affect your contrast/brightness settings? I'd be willing to do either for overall PQ improvement if it was worth the effort. The F59s do have bare metal making up the "pan" around the lens barrels, although it's more of a gray "matte finish" surface. The rest (on the 51's anyway) is some particle board and black plastic.

JWebb,

I've got the 51 and unless you've got huge mits you should be able to get your hands in there. Try it next time, it's much easier than making incremental changes and going around front to see the effect. I tried that too.

I've done it (duvetyne) JWebb: And I did it all from the back. It was super easy. Same thing with the lens hood (Cheap and INCREDIBLY easy.) It didn't think it affected my contrast/brightness settings much. Contrast is 23 and brightness 61. But that was very similiar before I did the mods. I did these things a couple week into ownership, so I can't really say how much difference it made... since I never got used to the picture without these mods.

Here's my post about the Duvetyne lining:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9476486&&#post9476486

And my post about my Lens Hood:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9374569&&#post9374569

In my final lens hood, I used black craft board from Target/Walmart (Under 3.00 dollars) and glued duvetyne cloth to it.

I really need to take new pictures and post them in this thread, but I've been reluctant to move the television to get in the back. But since I'm gonna do the mechanical focus and redo DCAM, I'll just crawl back there and take some pictures in the next week or so.

My picture looks great. But if I can get it a little better in DCAM (I already have but with the internal pattern) then I will. But you saying that once I do that, pressing MF will alter those settings? It seems contradictory, if a small child pressing the MF button returns the set to pre-DCAM, wouldn't initialzing MF after DCAM do the same thing?

Initializing MF after DCAM esentially resets the MF sensors to utilize the current DCAM ROM parameters as the reference while it goes thru it's 9-point "auto" alignment. It doesn't wipe out your DCAM settings or return it to "pre-DCAM" settings, but only realigns those 9 pts. If some of those 9 Points were technically "off" before (but gave perfect convergence for normal video material), Auto MF would throw that convergence off--leading to having to redo it.

The location and range of those 9 sensors is a concern after overscan reduction if you plan to keep MF active. Reducing overscan too much ("shrinking" the size of the internal crosshatch so that the points on that no longer are close to the sensors) cause sensor errors that don't allow you to reinitialize MF at all.

Auto MF won't totally wipe out your picture if accidentally activated. But the process of automatically realigning those 9 points (via electronic sensors, not actual "sight") may leave other areas of the screen visually out of alignment when normal video material is viewed.

I hope after my DCAM adjustment tonight I won't have to do focus, but if I do what pattern are you using to adjust it?




If you change the setting on your optical focus at the wingnuts, it will change the size of that color's pic.

Which will trash an otherwise very fine convergence, if it's a large enough change.

So do your optical focusing BEFORE you do your DCAM.


Mr Bob

Bob,

Saw this on the Hit F710 thread. I have obviously heard of (and believe that Lee Bailey, at least, has done) the duvetyne mod on the F59 series.

Can't say I'm experiencing much, if any, internal reflections. Or at least just not noticing them much. Only very occasionally, if ever, when watching in total darkness-but don't do that too much anyway. However, doesn't a duvetyne--or big black Sharpie--mod also affect your contrast/brightness settings? I'd be willing to do either for overall PQ improvement if it was worth the effort. The F59s do have bare metal making up the "pan" around the lens barrels, although it's more of a gray "matte finish" surface. The rest (on the 51's anyway) is some particle board and black plastic.



Yes, you may have to alter contr/br, but it's a VERY worthwhile alteration, seeing that you are now dialing in a more black picture - like the diff between black and blacker than black - than before.

If you want to see the reflections in action, with the set dead and the screen removed look straight into the mirror - see if you see anything. If you see ANYTHING other than the 3 guns, you're seeing too much in there, and that will be distractingly in your blacks if you don't cover it up.

Internal reflections appear at the OPPOSITE corner of your screen from their original bright spot, if you want to watch for them during regular program material.

The best way to test them is with VE's pluge pattern, where a crest will appear at the opposing corner area opposite the 100IRE white block, in the 4 blocks on the right side of the pluge pattern.


This pattern MAY be in DVE also, but like others, I think the guy who organized the menu surfing options in DVE should be shot. I use it only for its filters, which are the best if you can't do what's really called for, which is true color isolation.


Mr Bob

I need some good settings for the 51 inch of this. I just got it today and gotta wait for a new hd box the comcast update messed up the box alot. SD looks amazing though can't wait for HD!!!!!!!! Well give me some good settings I guess I need day and night settings.

Initializing MF after DCAM esentially resets the MF sensors to utilize the current DCAM ROM parameters as the reference while it goes thru it's 9-point "auto" alignment. It doesn't wipe out your DCAM settings or return it to "pre-DCAM" settings, but only realigns those 9 pts. If some of those 9 Points were technically "off" before (but gave perfect convergence for normal video material), Auto MF would throw that convergence off--leading to having to redo it.

The location and range of those 9 sensors is a concern after overscan reduction if you plan to keep MF active. Reducing overscan too much ("shrinking" the size of the internal crosshatch so that the points on that no longer are close to the sensors) cause sensor errors that don't allow you to reinitialize MF at all.

Auto MF won't totally wipe out your picture if accidentally activated. But the process of automatically realigning those 9 points (via electronic sensors, not actual "sight") may leave other areas of the screen visually out of alignment when normal video material is viewed.


Right.

This is why I don't do MF after my final pass. I do it a couple of times while initializing the rest of the corrections, just to get it close, but it will always trash any high degree of precision you have successfully instilled into your convergence, no matter which pass you're on.

After my final pass at convergence, using sent-in grid material, I DON'T hit MF ever again, and advise my owners not to, either.


Mr Bob

To illustrate the problem I'm having with my 51F59 I took the following photo:

http://home.comcast.net/~cavanaugh518/51F59.jpg

I'd VERY much appreciate it if someone 'in the know' could look at that picture and give their opinion on it. That is a pure white picture (255) with a resolution of 1920x1080 being displayed through an Xbox 360 over component inputs. I assure you that the Xbox is not the problem, as this discoloration exists on all inputs.

To illustrate the problem I'm having with my 51F59 I took the following photo:

http://home.comcast.net/~cavanaugh518/51F59.jpg

I'd VERY much appreciate it if someone 'in the know' could look at that picture and give their opinion on it. That is a pure white picture (255) with a resolution of 1920x1080 being displayed through an Xbox 360 over component inputs. I assure you that the Xbox is not the problem, as this discoloration exists on all inputs.


It can't be that you are losing fluid in the blue gun or this would be happening at the bottom of your screen, not the top.

It looks like your vertical sweep on blue is failing to reach the top of the screen. On some brands, like Mit, one vertical section affects all 3 circuit equally. On others, like Sony, there's one vert chip per color. Don't know about Hit.

I'd remove the screen and with the set on and that pattern happening, look directly into the blue gun (yellow is the absence of blue) and see what on earth's going on in there. Look at all 3 while you're there, of course, but I suspect the problem will be in the blue color's image.


Mr Bob

Thanks Mr. Bob that help alot, yea i just want to fix the std def over scan hd is pretty good, again thx!

Sorry Mr. Bob - I should have mentioned that the streak across the very top is the refresh of the screen being captured on camera.

It's the red color on the left and the blue spot/tint on the right that I'm concerned about.

According to the local Hit. tech, that shouldn't be happening.

I think that's called grayscale shift, the reddish hue predominantly on the left side of the screen and the bluish hue on the right, although yours does appear to have excessive blue hue on the righthand top portion. Some grayscale shift along these lines is normal on most CRT RP TV's or so I understand.

Would it be a good idea to take a bright colored Sharpie marker and put a reference mark on each lens barrel focusing ring BEFORE ever loosening the wingnuts the first time? That way you could always go back to your "old" factory focus, yes?

In addition to the yellow horizontal anomaly at the top, which is most definitely a problem, I see you have the same grayscale shift I have, and probably everyone else who has not done any lens striping... faint reddish hue to the left half of the screen, faint bluish hue to the right :o

I gave lens-striping a try and it didn't seem to alleviate the problem at all. The problem (at least to my eyes) doesn't appear 'faint' by any means. Of course I'm a huge hockey fan so I see it all the time during the games.

Would it be a good idea to take a bright colored Sharpie marker and put a reference mark on each lens barrel focusing ring BEFORE ever loosening the wingnuts the first time? That way you could always go back to your "old" factory focus, yes?


Oh yeah. I ALWAYS do.

Make the mark as thin as possible, and be sure the movable and non-movable parts of it line up correctly from the position your eyes will be at, when reading it, BEFORE loosening up the wingnut.


Mr Bob

I gave lens-striping a try and it didn't seem to alleviate the problem at all. The problem (at least to my eyes) doesn't appear 'faint' by any means. Of course I'm a huge hockey fan so I see it all the time during the games.

No wonder this has not been a big, gaping hole in the technology with most of the owners here. Hockey is not real-world viewing, any more than ice skating at the Olympics.

Yes, uneven white field uniformity would be VERY noticeable in a hockey game.


Mr Bob

No wonder this has not been a big, gaping hole in the technology with most of the owners here. Hockey is not real-world viewing, any more than ice skating at the Olympics.

Yes, uneven white field uniformity would be VERY noticeable in a hockey game.


Mr Bob

So is this a problem that I'm perpetually going to have with this set? Hitachi and the local service center seem to think that what I've described is 'not acceptable' and want to make it better. Is this a lens-striping problem or does it appear to be something greater?

I'm not sure I follow your hockey comment. Are you making fun of the popularity of it? hehe

Stop talking about this luxury you enjoy of being able to have an actual authorized Hitachi Service Center available to work on warranty claims. I have to rely on Sears In-Home Repair because, like a dunce, I bought mine @ Sears. :o

Sorry for the null post. Just busting your chops... :p

If you change the setting on your optical focus at the wingnuts, it will change the size of that color's pic.

Which will trash an otherwise very fine convergence, if it's a large enough change.

So do your optical focusing BEFORE you do your DCAM.


Mr Bob


I was not going to do focus but now I have the panel off and see how easy it is to turn the pots. I made some minor adjustments with text to get it as tight as possible, what else can I use? THen I will have to do convergence again I imagine.

Could someone point to the best walkthrough/ description of a Optical focus, and what is best to have on the screen to get this right?

I was not going to do focus but now I have the panel off and see how easy it is to turn the pots. I made some minor adjustments with text to get it as tight as possible, what else can I use? THen I will have to do convergence again I imagine.


I specifically said OPTICAL focus will change the sizing of that color's image, the focusing you loosen up the wingnuts for. Changing the trimpots on the focus block will not, tho changing the blue focus trimpot position will affect the white balance of your grayscale.

BTW, I agree that it is very easy to turn the pots. So easy you might want to do it without looking.

Turn the wrong pot on that focus block and you'll trash an otherwise good grayscale, and REALLY need an ISF tech in there.


Mr Bob

...I guess at this point I have no choice but to see if the replacement 51F59 has the same uniformity problem.

If it were a simple lens-striping fix (which hasn't been answered) then I wouldn't feel so depressed right now about the HDTV nightmare I've experienced. As it stands, I'm unsure what my final recourse might be if the new TV tomorrow exhibits the same, intolerable uniformity problems.

This is not the "CRTs are the best" kind of performance I expected.

So is this a problem that I'm perpetually going to have with this set? Hitachi and the local service center seem to think that what I've described is 'not acceptable' and want to make it better. Is this a lens-striping problem or does it appear to be something greater?

I'm not sure I follow your hockey comment. Are you making fun of the popularity of it? hehe

...I guess at this point I have no choice but to see if the replacement 51F59 has the same uniformity problem.

If it were a simple lens-striping fix (which hasn't been answered) then I wouldn't feel so depressed right now about the HDTV nightmare I've experienced. As it stands, I'm unsure what my final recourse might be if the new TV tomorrow exhibits the same, intolerable uniformity problems.

This is not the "CRTs are the best" kind of performance I expected.

I'm not a huge hockey fan, but in moments of boredom I've occasionally watched some hockey on HDNET and only because it looks so INCREDIBLE.

I've done lens striping. I used to have a significant red tint on one side, blue on the other. But if was uniform top to bottom. You said you did lens striping and it didn't help (You did the outside of the lens, right?) You should be able to get the ice uniformly white. Almost sounds like there is something defective with your set.

Ok so i just picked up my Hitachi 51F59 this weekend and currently have analog cable (waiting on Verizon HDTV) running direct to the tuner, which is the "cable" input....also i have my xbox 360 hooked up to "input 3" via a RGB cable.

My question is this: when i want to switch between inputs, is there an easier way than hitting the "input" button until i scroll down to input 3 and then have to hit "select" button and then repeat the whole process again to get back to the "cable" input?

There's got to be an easier way, but i havent had any success.

Ok so i just picked up my Hitachi 51F59 this weekend and currently have analog cable (waiting on Verizon HDTV) running direct to the tuner, which is the "cable" input....also i have my xbox 360 hooked up to "input 3" via a RGB cable.

My question is this: when i want to switch between inputs, is there an easier way than hitting the "input" button until i scroll down to input 3 and then have to hit "select" button and then repeat the whole process again to get back to the "cable" input?

There's got to be an easier way, but i havent had any success.

I'll second any suggestions on this. I can't stand this. And I can't use my cable remote to switch inputs because you have to either hit enter or right arrow for your input switch to take hold (hitting input just puts you in menu limbo and my cable remote doesn't support the additional buttons).

And it's like that for everything. You either have to hit enter or an right arrow or you sit on menu screens forever. Is there some way to change this timing to a shorter period (say from 2 minutes down to 3 seconds?)

I'll second any suggestions on this. I can't stand this. And I can't use my cable remote to switch inputs because you have to either hit enter or right arrow for your input switch to take hold (hitting input just puts you in menu limbo and my cable remote doesn't support the additional buttons).

And it's like that for everything. You either have to hit enter or an right arrow or you sit on menu screens forever. Is there some way to change this timing to a shorter period (say from 2 minutes down to 3 seconds?)

I just keep clicking input button till I reach the desired input, then click select, then click exit. Takes about 5 seconds.

I just keep clicking input button till I reach the desired input, then click select, then click exit. Takes about 5 seconds.

And if select doesn't map to your cable remote, you have no choice but to use the TV remote (Which is retarded). This is the 1st remote in my entire life where hitting input doesn't freaking change the input. Where you have to verify your choice at the end by hitting select. The engineer who decided that should have his degree terminated. It's beyond comprehension stupid. And, yeah, I have a select button on my cable remote, but it's locked to the cable control. Doesn't matter which mode I'm in, I hit select, and it's enters cable mode. Any anger this post may have is not directed at you, but the Hitachi engineer.

EDIT: And it's not just select you have to hit. You have to hit the exit button if you don't want that stupid input menu system displaying for 2 minutes. That's what I would love to change the timings on.

I specifically said OPTICAL focus will change the sizing of that color's image, the focusing you loosen up the wingnuts for. Changing the trimpots on the focus block will not, tho changing the blue focus trimpot position will affect the white balance of your grayscale.

BTW, I agree that it is very easy to turn the pots. So easy you might want to do it without looking.

Turn the wrong pot on that focus block and you'll trash an otherwise good grayscale, and REALLY need an ISF tech in there.


Mr Bob


I was using the wrong term, it was not "pots" but the lenses. I remembered I had a filter from DVE, so I put red, blue and green against some white text, defocused each one, and then refocused to make the text as clear as possible.

Then I went back into DCAM. As expected convergence was bad. I didn't have the patience last night to get it perfect, especially away from the center, instead I just corrected the lines that were way off, and some were WAY off. This morning I turned on the TV and was just about knocked out of my chair by this incredibly beautiful woman who was in my living room.

Tonight I will redo convergence completely and hopefully be done. The only problem I see now, other that some softness in areas where convergence needs to be fixed, is a bit of, noise or static or whatever, on some shots. For example the woman I mentioned, when they went to a close up of something in her hand, there was a tiny bit of...movement in the bright purple color of her jacket. Barely noticeable but there. This is more pronouned on SD channels, and ticker text, while perfect in HD, is just a bit blurred in SD. Would bad convergence affect SD more than HD?

And if select doesn't map to your cable remote, you have no choice but to use the TV remote (Which is retarded). This is the 1st remote in my entire life where hitting input doesn't freaking change the input. Where you have to verify your choice at the end by hitting select. The engineer who decided that should have his degree terminated. It's beyond comprehension stupid. And, yeah, I have a select button on my cable remote, but it's locked to the cable control. Doesn't matter which mode I'm in, I hit select, and it's enters cable mode. Any anger this post may have is not directed at you, but the Hitachi engineer.

EDIT: And it's not just select you have to hit. You have to hit the exit button if you don't want that stupid input menu system displaying for 2 minutes. That's what I would love to change the timings on.


Do you have a universal remote? On my Harmony I have Input 3, 4, etc. Just press it and you're done. So you should be able to get that somehow, is it called a discreet code, anyone? I agree it's a bad design on the TV remote but not uncommon, my previous Samsung had the same thing.

While we're talking about bad menus and beyond comprehension stupid, I had forgotten just how bad the DVE was. It took me 15 minutes to find the damn test patterns again. I was ready to throw the damn thing out the window.

Hi Guys:

Thanks for all your help and info.

OK so I finally got my green, blue and red optical and electronic focus completed. Next I put the set in DCAM mode and did the normal mode DCU mode trick to get the remote in DCU mode. Voila, Im looking at the blue and red adjustment grids and pressing menu to use a background hi-res grid to do convergence. I get it just how I want it (left green alone) and then:

I press ASPECT to write it to ROM and... nothing. No confirmation screen ... no change in the blinking on the grid or any other indication anything happened... nada. So then I try to initialize the MF by pressing the STOP key.. again.. no response. Convergence on the screen still looks amazing... but I dont know if all the work I did will stay. So then I press the guide button to perform a "Calculate" (not sure why I would need this) again nothing. So finally I do an ASPECT, and a STOP again.. and again nothing.

Then I try to exit DCU mode... TV-hold press-0 press-1 ... and nothing happens. I cant get out of DCAM mode... arg. So I manually shut off the set at the front.

What am I doing wrong? I have the 2006 model. Anyone have any ideas??

thanks
Colin

EDIT: I am doing this while "receiving" a 1080i signal over HDMI. Does this qualify for "receiving any NTSC signal" as specified in the manual??

Hi Guys:

Thanks for all your help and info.

OK so I finally got my green, blue and red optical and electronic focus completed. Next I put the set in DCAM mode and did the normal mode DCU mode trick to get the remote in DCU mode. Voila, Im looking at the blue and red adjustment grids and pressing menu to use a background hi-res grid to do convergence. I get it just how I want it (left green alone) and then:

I press ASPECT to write it to ROM and... nothing. No confirmation screen ... no change in the blinking on the grid or any other indication anything happened... nada. So then I try to initialize the MF by pressing the STOP key.. again.. no response. Convergence on the screen still looks amazing... but I dont know if all the work I did will stay. So then I press the guide button to perform a "Calculate" (not sure why I would need this) again nothing. So finally I do an ASPECT, and a STOP again.. and again nothing.

Then I try to exit DCU mode... TV-hold press-0 press-1 ... and nothing happens. I cant get out of DCAM mode... arg. So I manually shut off the set at the front.

What am I doing wrong? I have the 2006 model. Anyone have any ideas??

thanks
Colin

I don't have the instructions in front of me, but you're supposed to press PIP Mode and Channel at some point, did you do that?

Would bad convergence affect SD more than HD?


If your set is of the more advanced model years where the 480 is automatically transformed to 540 upon entering the set, the 1080i convergence is the best way to get the tightest pic, as they take their conv from each other - they use the same memory bank - but 1080i gives you the finest, tightest, most high-res picture.

Doing it the other way around will make your 480/540 look grand, but will make the 1080i look rather sloppy in comparison.

Same is true with any brand that does this, like the later model Tosh's, as well.


Mr Bob

I don't have the instructions in front of me, but you're supposed to press PIP Mode and Channel at some point, did you do that?

Hit has an annoying habit of changing their buttons around from one model year to another, so you have to doublecheck the buttons to use on any particular model year, for memorization of your convergence settings.


Mr Bob

1st time I did DCAM the same "problem" was occuring. Turns out I didn't have the remote in DCAM mode:

On the REMOTE Control:

Hold down the TV key
Press and release the MENU key
Press and release the INFO key
Release the TV key

You can do a ton of things without having the remote in DCAM mode. Writing isn't one of them.

I'll second any suggestions on this. I can't stand this. And I can't use my cable remote to switch inputs because you have to either hit enter or right arrow for your input switch to take hold (hitting input just puts you in menu limbo and my cable remote doesn't support the additional buttons).

And it's like that for everything. You either have to hit enter or an right arrow or you sit on menu screens forever. Is there some way to change this timing to a shorter period (say from 2 minutes down to 3 seconds?)
I did see something in the manual about setting the inputs to "autodetect" and signal running into the inputs (in this case, input 3 is RGB for my xbox 360) and once you power on the device the TV will auto-switch to the input that signal is coming in on.. even that would be an improvement, but i cant seem to figure out how to do that.
Any other suggentions/help would be much appreciated!

If your set is of the more advanced model years where the 480 is automatically transformed to 540 upon entering the set, the 1080i convergence is the best way to get the tightest pic, as they take their conv from each other - they use the same memory bank - but 1080i gives you the finest, tightest, most high-res picture.

Doing it the other way around will make your 480/540 look grand, but will make the 1080i look rather sloppy in comparison.

Same is true with any brand that does this, like the later model Tosh's, as well.


Mr Bob


My set is a month old so I guess it's advanced. I've got to see if I can find and record the HDNet patterns, will check guide for this Sunday, until then I'll just use DVE.

2) Half of my screen seems to be affected by a reddish tint, almost split right down the vertical middle of the screen.

Welcome to the club! Same issue here.

-Funk

mabrym: I don't have a universal remote where I can program discreet codes. I'm just using the universal DVR cable remote from the cable company. Would prefer not to spend money for something I already have (and have to really program the remote to do all the specific buttons it'd be missing.)

I did see something in the manual about setting the inputs to "autodetect" and signal running into the inputs (in this case, input 3 is RGB for my xbox 360) and once you power on the device the TV will auto-switch to the input that signal is coming in on.. even that would be an improvement, but i cant seem to figure out how to do that.
Any other suggentions/help would be much appreciated!

I would be very happy if I could figure that out too. Anyone?

Hi Guys:

Thanks for all your help and info.

OK so I finally got my green, blue and red optical and electronic focus completed. Next I put the set in DCAM mode and did the normal mode DCU mode trick to get the remote in DCU mode. Voila, Im looking at the blue and red adjustment grids and pressing menu to use a background hi-res grid to do convergence. I get it just how I want it (left green alone) and then:

I press ASPECT to write it to ROM and... nothing. No confirmation screen ... no change in the blinking on the grid or any other indication anything happened... nada. So then I try to initialize the MF by pressing the STOP key.. again.. no response. Convergence on the screen still looks amazing... but I dont know if all the work I did will stay. So then I press the guide button to perform a "Calculate" (not sure why I would need this) again nothing. So finally I do an ASPECT, and a STOP again.. and again nothing.

Then I try to exit DCU mode... TV-hold press-0 press-1 ... and nothing happens. I cant get out of DCAM mode... arg. So I manually shut off the set at the front.

What am I doing wrong? I have the 2006 model. Anyone have any ideas??

thanks
Colin

EDIT: I am doing this while "receiving" a 1080i signal over HDMI. Does this qualify for "receiving any NTSC signal" as specified in the manual??

The remote commands for DCAM can be screwy at times. Here's what's worked for me.

First, I always access DCAM via remote---hold TV, press ASPECT, press 9, release TV for Line Adj Mode. Then press STOP to access DCAM mode.

If this doesn't work right away, try putting the remote to "normal/exit DCAM mode"--hold TV, press 0, press 1, release TV.

DO THE EXIT DCAM PROCEDURE WITH THE REMOTE POINTED AWAY FROM THE SET OR THE FRONT OF THE REMOTE "EYE" COVERED BY YOUR FINGER! Not that anything bad will happen, but it can annoyingly turn off the TV if not in DCAM already. Then proceed with the above Line Adj Mode steps.

Or just hit the "blue button" inside the TV ;)

Once you enter DCAM, first see if the cursor will move. If so, proceed. If not, try putting remote in "normal/exit DCAM mode", then try to move the cursor. If no response, try doing the steps for putting remote in "DCU mode" (hold TV, press MENU, press INFO, release TV). You will find one or the other will give you the ability to do DCAM adjustments. Sounds crazy, I know, but it worked for me.

When it's time to write to ROM and pressing ASPECT does nothing, I find that doing the "remote to DCU Mode" mentioned above allows me to do the ASPECT for writing to ROM/ASPECT then STOP to reinitialize MF functions.

Basically, if DCAM remote commands don't seem to work, try alternating btwn the 2 remote modes (DCU/normal). May even have to alternate remote modes after DCAM adj and prior to ROM write.

After I write to ROM/intialize MF, I hit ASPECT again after the "green dots" appear. This brings up the grid again. You can re-check your convergence (either with the internal grid, or preferably with the incoming input source by pressing MENU until you get the ext. video displayed). If satisfied, make sure you get back to the regualr DCAM grid, then turn off the TV from the front panel button. I leave it off for about 20-30 seconds then turn it back on. You have now exited DCAM with all settings intact in ROM.

As Mr Bob has stated in the past, his experiences have shown that Hitachi's may take a few separate passes of DCAM adjustment for all the settings to stick. This means doing a full DCAM adj, writing, exiting and then re-entering DCAM to fix/touch up any perceived errors. Can't say this is the case with the F59 ROM, but I did 5 separate DCAM pases over about a 2 day period. My convergence has been rock-solid since.

And a 1080i HD signal is one of the external video sources I've used (via component) while tweaking convergence, as well as DVD signals (also 1080i via HDMI). Those are just fine, I imagine. And my SD convergence looks as good as HD and DVD.

Good luck and happy DCAM-ing!

So, is the fact that my 51F59A shows an "all-white" screen without red or blue tint on one side or the other make me an exception? Or lucky?

From what I've gathered, the lens striping mod is the cure for this on ANY CRT RPTV.

I have spent plenty of time looking at all-white screens, or images with lots of white in them like HD hockey or snow footage (during the time my "smudge--documented in the 57F59A thread--was being diagnosed and fixed). Never had this problem myself.

Just curious, when you use this pattern for convergence you would stretch it to 16:9, right? Does stretching 4:3 to 16:9 have any negative side effects or somehow keep it from being as effective as it should be? For that matter, do you guys view all the AVIA patterns at 16:9 or does it depend on the pattern?

The remote commands for DCAM can be screwy at times. Here's what's worked for me.



DO THE EXIT DCAM PROCEDURE WITH THE REMOTE POINTED AWAY FROM THE SET OR THE FRONT OF THE REMOTE "EYE" COVERED BY YOUR FINGER! Not that anything bad will happen, but it can annoyingly turn off the TV if not in DCAM already. Then proceed with the above Line Adj Mode steps.



I think something bad can happen. I'm not sure, but I think it was the remote that caused my set to go wacky last weekend, I don't know what else it could have been unless it was using the remote after shutting off with it still in DCAM. No reason not to be cautious there.

I can never get the TV to power off with the remote sequence, but the power button works.

Just curious, when you use this pattern for convergence you would stretch it to 16:9, right? Does stretching 4:3 to 16:9 have any negative side effects or somehow keep it from being as effective as it should be? For that matter, do you guys view all the AVIA patterns at 16:9 or does it depend on the pattern?


When I use the 50 IRE (or any "widescreen") pattern, I change the displayed aspect on my DVD player. I actually do this when using ANY AVIA function. I use the Sony NS75H player. In its setup menu, you can change how 4:3 material (which everything in AVIA seems to display in normally) is output. The Sony can be changed btwn Normal (4:3 with black pillarbox bars on 16x9 displays) or Full (basically a 16x9 stretch). Since the AVIA widescreen patterns appear "squeezed" when shown in 4:3, I just set my player to Full mode for 4:3 and leave my F59s aspect alone.

I imagine most all current DVD players have some sort of function available in setup menus for how 4:3 video gets displayed on 16x9 TVs.

If your set is of the more advanced model years where the 480 is automatically transformed to 540 upon entering the set, the 1080i convergence is the best way to get the tightest pic, <snipped to keep post size minimal>

Mr Bob


This sounds like the "Virtual HD" option in the user SETUP menu. It allows you to select if you want the tv to display 480 content at a "virtual HD" of 540p or 1080i, niether of which makes the 480 content look like real HD but maybe (maybe...) does dress it up a little bit. Since most of my viewing is SD analog cable and 480p DVD I keep the "Virtual HD" set at 1080i because the Virtual HD process itself (which can't be turned off for 480 content) seems to cause a split second duration horizontal banding effect noticeable in brighter colored areas of the scene when the scene features a major change in camera work, like if the scene switches to a different camera angle. The banding is less noticeable with virtual HD set to 1080i. My wife says she doesn't even see it but my eye catches it, its probably on the order of 1/10ths of a second or less. Not a problem.

When my cable provider offers more HD content, I'll make the jump to digital/HD (and the requisite set-top box... sure wish the F59's had a QAM tuner built-in)

The remote commands for DCAM can be screwy at times. Here's what's worked for me.

First, I always access DCAM via remote---hold TV, press ASPECT, press 9, release TV for Line Adj Mode. Then press STOP to access DCAM mode.

If this doesn't work right away, try putting the remote to "normal/exit DCAM mode"--hold TV, press 0, press 1, release TV.

DO THE EXIT DCAM PROCEDURE WITH THE REMOTE POINTED AWAY FROM THE SET OR THE FRONT OF THE REMOTE "EYE" COVERED BY YOUR FINGER! Not that anything bad will happen, but it can annoyingly turn off the TV if not in DCAM already. Then proceed with the above Line Adj Mode steps.

Or just hit the "blue button" inside the TV ;)

Once you enter DCAM, first see if the cursor will move. If so, proceed. If not, try putting remote in "normal/exit DCAM mode", then try to move the cursor. If no response, try doing the steps for putting remote in "DCU mode" (hold TV, press MENU, press INFO, release TV). You will find one or the other will give you the ability to do DCAM adjustments. Sounds crazy, I know, but it worked for me.

When it's time to write to ROM and pressing ASPECT does nothing, I find that doing the "remote to DCU Mode" mentioned above allows me to do the ASPECT for writing to ROM/ASPECT then STOP to reinitialize MF functions.

Basically, if DCAM remote commands don't seem to work, try alternating btwn the 2 remote modes (DCU/normal). May even have to alternate remote modes after DCAM adj and prior to ROM write.

After I write to ROM/intialize MF, I hit ASPECT again after the "green dots" appear. This brings up the grid again. You can re-check your convergence (either with the internal grid, or preferably with the incoming input source by pressing MENU until you get the ext. video displayed). If satisfied, make sure you get back to the regualr DCAM grid, then turn off the TV from the front panel button. I leave it off for about 20-30 seconds then turn it back on. You have now exited DCAM with all settings intact in ROM.

As Mr Bob has stated in the past, his experiences have shown that Hitachi's may take a few separate passes of DCAM adjustment for all the settings to stick. This means doing a full DCAM adj, writing, exiting and then re-entering DCAM to fix/touch up any perceived errors. Can't say this is the case with the F59 ROM, but I did 5 separate DCAM pases over about a 2 day period. My convergence has been rock-solid since.

And a 1080i HD signal is one of the external video sources I've used (via component) while tweaking convergence, as well as DVD signals (also 1080i via HDMI). Those are just fine, I imagine. And my SD convergence looks as good as HD and DVD.

Good luck and happy DCAM-ing!

thanks jwebb, I think the problem might be that I am using a manual for a CLU-4361S remote and I have a CLU-4362S remote... Im going to try to find the right manual...

My post seemed to be ignored so I will post again. Can anyone give me some settings for video. Like one good for 360 and another one good for hd cable. Thanks.

My post seemed to be ignored so I will post again. Can anyone give me some settings for video. Like one good for 360 and another one good for hd cable. Thanks.

Check the first page of this thread for Lee Bailey's link to the F59 DIY Guide. Good thing to print out and have, BTW.

In it are some ranges of popular User settings as well as some of the more popular Service Menu tweaks.

One person's settings may not be best for you. Each TV is different--even 2 of the same make/model. Input sources and viewing environment are also factors. Don't have a 360 myself, but for my HD cable (via component) my settings are (from memory, anyway ;)--I could be off on these a bit):

Contrast--35 Day; 28 Night
Brightness 58 Day, 56 Night
Color--45%
Tint--dead center
Sharpness--40%
Color Temp--Standard
Edge/Black enhance--both off
Auto Movie Mode--On (only active for SD cable, running @ 480i )
Virtual HD--1080i (again, only affects SD cable signals)

Sorry if you felt ignored. Happens by mistake from time to time. What works best for you is really what your own eyes tell you.

My post seemed to be ignored so I will post again. Can anyone give me some settings for video. Like one good for 360 and another one good for hd cable. Thanks.

tbone... I agree with jwebb for most of the settings, but if you do the SRTGA 00 tweak (turns off super real transient gain... crazy edge sharpening stuff) and have your Edge Enhancement set to OFF, you can safely crank your sharpness to 56-61 with little edge oversharpening artifacting.

So, is the fact that my 51F59A shows an "all-white" screen without red or blue tint on one side or the other make me an exception? Or lucky?

From what I've gathered, the lens striping mod is the cure for this on ANY CRT RPTV.

I have spent plenty of time looking at all-white screens, or images with lots of white in them like HD hockey or snow footage (during the time my "smudge--documented in the 57F59A thread--was being diagnosed and fixed). Never had this problem myself.

Striping may solve the issue, but why is it an issue in the first place? Why does it leave the factory like this? Do they hope nobody will notice?

The fact that some people don't have this issue suggests to me that some are OK from the factory and some aren't. Maybe it is a Monday/Friday issue.

Anyway, I called Hitachi and said this is unacceptable they agreed. I have an appointment with a different tech on the 12th.

-Funk

Striping may solve the issue, but why is it an issue in the first place? Why does it leave the factory like this? Do they hope nobody will notice?

The fact that some people don't have this issue suggests to me that some are OK from the factory and some aren't. Maybe it is a Monday/Friday issue.

Anyway, I called Hitachi and said this is unacceptable they agreed. I have an appointment with a different tech on the 12th.

-Funk


Physical variances likely play a factor, although this type of thing has been an issue for some with ALL CRT based RPTVs. Some just don't experience it, don't really notice it or aren't bothered by it. And it can and often is better or worse-even potentially non-existent-on different sets. Even 2 of the same make/model of set. Same issue with internal reflections (often taken care of with lens hood or duvetyne lining on the inside of the TV). Some sets have int. reflections like crazy, some don't.

If it's particularly bad and you either don't want to do lens striping or that mod won't alleviate it (and the manufacturer or retailer will swap it for you), then go for it.

If it's particularly bad and you either don't want to do lens striping or that mod won't alleviate it (and the manufacturer or retailer will swap it for you), then go for it.

This is my 2nd unit with the same problem. :(

I don't have a problem with the tech doing the striping. Is this within their scope of service?

-Funk

I don't really want to fool with the service menu until I get Hitachi out here about overscan.

SRTGA 00 just makes the picture really blurry. It seems to do the same thing the NOISE REDUCTION option in the user menu does, which is.... make the picture blurry. On my set, the factory default setting of SRTGA 10 is optimal. In user Video menu I have edge enhancement OFF and Noise Reduction also OFF, Sharpness set @ 50 (factory default again...) and this is optimal, at least for SD Cable (480i) content. But then we have an exceptionaly strong RF signal on our cable line, too. The single most effective service menu tweak I have benefitted from is COLORG = 01. It takes red out of overdrive, i.e a red car no longer looks like its glowing red after setting COLORG=01. Curiously (on my 51F59), COLORG=02, and COLORG=03 start phasing the glow back into reds, which makes COLORG=01 the setting that removes the most red push or red glow from red objects in the scene.

To illustrate the problem I'm having with my 51F59 I took the following photo:

http://home.comcast.net/~cavanaugh518/51F59.jpg

I'd VERY much appreciate it if someone 'in the know' could look at that picture and give their opinion on it. That is a pure white picture (255) with a resolution of 1920x1080 being displayed through an Xbox 360 over component inputs. I assure you that the Xbox is not the problem, as this discoloration exists on all inputs.

I also have the same problem. I have a PC connected to my 51f59 and when I set the desktop background to all white, my upper right corner has a blue tint to it and the other side red.

I also watch hockey, but haven't had the time to watch any on this set. If it bothers you then most likely I will notice it on mine.

I am also seeing a lot of noise when watching HD either from my PC or hd cable box. In fact, this was one of the first things I noticed when I first fired up my set.

I am still within 30 days of my purchase and unless I can solve these problems the set is going back.

I tried your guys settings. When I changed it I lost all the vivid color. It kinda takes away all of the natural look to it. Is it better to have a bright vivid picture or no. Bit the Simpsons look puke green. why is this?

I tried ur settings again and it looks a lot better with hd brodcasts it hides a lot of the noise that is apparent in it. It looks pretty good though. I just wish I could have the vivid colors also.

I know it has been said over and over again on here but I just want to thank you for the HDMI "freakout" fix. I was nearly ready to throw my remote at the TV. Since the changes have been made not one "freak" has occurred (two days and counting). btw the colorg=01 tweak is a MUST DO.

Striping may solve the issue, but why is it an issue in the first place? Why does it leave the factory like this? Do they hope nobody will notice?

The fact that some people don't have this issue suggests to me that some are OK from the factory and some aren't. Maybe it is a Monday/Friday issue.

Anyway, I called Hitachi and said this is unacceptable they agreed. I have an appointment with a different tech on the 12th.

-Funk


Mit used to have a red/blue shift as you went from right to left in front of the set, on their ancient lenticulars. They improved them as the years passed, and these days there's basically none of that shift anymore.

Could be that the lenticulars Hit is using are simply old tech, possibly cheaper screens than Mit and Pioneer use.

Have you gone out into the marketplace to view another Hit of exactly the same model on sales floor, carrying an all white pattern of some sort with you? It would be interesting to see if ALL of that model do this.


Mr Bob

Have you gone out into the marketplace to view another Hit of exactly the same model on sales floor, carrying an all white pattern of some sort with you? It would be interesting to see if ALL of that model do this.
Mr Bob

I know my 51F59A DOES NOT have this issue on an all-white pattern. Lord knows I've spent enough time looking at all-white patterns/predominately white images prior to and after my blue CRT replacement (for the dreaded "coolant cootie smudge"). White is WHITE across the entire screen for me.

Perhaps there are manuafacturing variations in the lenticulars or their factory installation?

tbone... I agree with jwebb for most of the settings, but if you do the SRTGA 00 tweak (turns off super real transient gain... crazy edge sharpening stuff) and have your Edge Enhancement set to OFF, you can safely crank your sharpness to 56-61 with little edge oversharpening artifacting.

I noticed that either leaving SRTGA at 10 or cranking Sharpness way up doesn't produce too much EE, but it does cause tons of "sparklies" or moire-like patterns whenever there is a lot of detail in a shot. Almost looks like compression artifacts. It's nice to have the crisp edges, but frankly I'd rather have a softer picture than see the "sparklies" everywhere.

I know my 51F59A DOES NOT have this issue on an all-white pattern. Lord knows I've spent enough time looking at all-white patterns/predominately white images prior to and after my blue CRT replacement (for the dreaded "coolant cootie smudge"). <snipped>

What's a coolant cootie smudge? :confused:

What's a coolant cootie smudge? :confused:

See the 57F59A thread for the full discussion of that! I wasn't the only one with a similar issue.

Basically, my set had a small defect/flaw/foreign debris present in the coolant level (below the coolant cup lens) in the blue CRT. Caused a visible yellow-ish "smudge" on-screen, as this defect was in the lightpath of the blue CRT. Noticabe mostly when all-white or very light colored images were on-screen-although I saw it basically all the time, just because I knew it was there!

So, in terms of the color issues mentioned here lately, I can say that all-white patterns/images don't have the same tint issues others are having.

Had my local (and surprisingly compentent ;) ) authorized Hitachi tech come out not long ago to offically diagnose the blue CRT problem. I already knew before that what the problem was by examining the blue CRT myself with some tips from Mr Bob.

Hitachi had him replace the blue CRT under warranty and now all is good. :)

for what it's worth, I have the same problem with color balance across the screen which you can see on scenes with snow, for example. But I don't watch hockey and isn't noticable on regular stuff so I figured I would do the striping later on.

Don't return this set until you've put 100 hrs on it, checked optical and electronic focus and done a carefully 117 pt convergence, lessened red push in the service menu and tried the lens striping (if that's an issue for you).

I was unhappy the first week I had this set but it looks great now. I'm hoping a DCAM convergence will tighten up the picture even more.

for what it's worth, I have the same problem with color balance across the screen which you can see on scenes with snow, for example. But I don't watch hockey and isn't noticable on regular stuff so I figured I would do the striping later on.

Don't return this set until you've put 100 hrs on it, checked optical and electronic focus and done a carefully 117 pt convergence, lessened red push in the service menu and tried the lens striping (if that's an issue for you).

I was unhappy the first week I had this set but it looks great now. I'm hoping a DCAM convergence will tighten up the picture even more.


100 hours takes awhile to put on any set. Could be that they would not be able to return it by then.

As a calibrator with lots of real world experience, I don't think any of the things you mentioned are going to help this issue get resolved, even tho of course those things WOULD improve the picture immeasurably.

I think the Hit lenticular in question is simply cheaper than other brands' and not up to snuff. Best case scenario, a more expensive lenticular from Mit or Pio is put on there in place of the one there and it improves it. But we all know Hit is not going to do that!

I can get good deals on replacement Mit HD lenticulars, if anybody wants to try that. They are the most affordable lents out there, and yet are some of the finest made - world class quality for HD viewing and no noticeable red/blue shifting as the seating angle changes side to side.


Mr Bob

Mr. Bob,

What price would we be talking about for a 51 HD lenticular"? How noticeable is SSE on those? I find SSE on the Hit occasionally noticeable but acceptable, especially compared to the JVC LCOS set I had for a couple weeks which was just intolerable.

Also, Mr. Bob Is there any practical way a home user could do a grey scale calibration perhaps in consultation with you over the phone? I live in SE Iowa and the nearest ISF guy is 2 and a half hours away. I don't know what he charges but since 5 hours of his time would just be travel, it probably doesn't make a lot of sense to even consider it.

Thanks

As a calibrator with lots of real world experience, I don't think any of the things you mentioned are going to help this issue get resolved, even tho of course those things WOULD improve the picture immeasurably. Mr Bob

Mr. Bob,

If I hear you clearly, those of us with the red/blue tint problem are basically SOL with regard to Hitachi fixing this issue?

-Funk

Mr. Bob,

If I hear you clearly, those of us with the red/blue tint problem are basically SOL with regard to Hitachi fixing this issue?

-Funk

No. It's like I'm on everybody's ignore list. Somebody posted an ISF "cheat sheet", so to speak, where ISF's made observations about all the different models on the market and the basic fixes that needed to be addressed on those models. Lens striping was fairly common. It wasn't just one or two models. And as I've stated, I've completely eliminated the left/right blue/red tint issue with the simple lens striping that I've detailed a dozen times. Don't go spending a couple hundred dollars on a new screen before you do the lens striping (and if you follow my technique, you don't even have to wrap tape around your lenses.) You simply lie the striping on top of the lens.

EDIT: I guess you were referring to Hitachi. You probably need to return it or spend 10 minutes and do the striping. Guess between the above poster asking how much the new screen cost and your post, I jumped into thinking people believed it was impossible to fix.

No. It's like I'm on everybody's ignore list. Somebody posted an ISF "cheat sheet", so to speak, where ISF's made observations about all the different models on the market and the basic fixes that needed to be addressed on those models. Lens striping was fairly common. It wasn't just one or two models. And as I've stated, I've completely eliminated the left/right blue/red tint issue with the simple lens striping that I've detailed a dozen times. Don't go spending a couple hundred dollars on a new screen before you do the lens striping (and if you follow my technique, you don't even have to wrap tape around your lenses.) You simply lie the striping on top of the lens.

EDIT: I guess you were referring to Hitachi. You probably need to return it or spend 10 minutes and do the striping. Guess between the above poster asking how much the new screen cost and your post, I jumped into thinking people believed it was impossible to fix.


Paul - I have attempted a lens-striping mod with my 'replacement' 51F59 and thus far have made improvements in the red/blue color shift. However in the middle of the screen is still a blue and red hotspot that I CANNOT get rid of as of yet.

I have largely eliminated any excess red and blue from the edges of the screen on their respective sides, but getting rid of it from the middle is hardly an easy task. If I go any further in from the sides, I end up eliminating the red or blue color entirely from the edges by blocking too much of each CRTs output.

I understand what you are saying Paul, but why should I as a consumer have to crack open my brand new TV, and possibly void the warranty, to fix something that is a defect?

If Hitachi says to me, "Go ahead, open the unit, do the striping and it won't void your warranty" then I am OK with that but I don't think it will go that way.

-Funk

can someone tell me where I can get the instructions to do the lens-striping mod?

We should keep in mind that all HD sets are a compromise. If I had called JVC and demanded they "fix" the sse problem on their dlp rptvs I'm sure they would have said they didn't know what I was talking about. So I returned the set which Home Theater mag had rated number two out of six rptvs. The same goes with dlp rainbows, glare on plasma screens, poor blacks on lcd screens etc.

You just decide what trade offs you can live with. I couldn't live with dlp rainbows (many can) and the silk screen effect on the Samsung, Sony, Toshiba and JVC digital rear projection sets I looked at (obviously many can). I could live with the glare on a plasma screen but not the price tag. I can live with the slight sse (much less to my eyes than on digital rptvs) on my hitachi and the color tint issue on the screen (which I do see) especially if I can reduce it significantly with lens striping.

I just say give this set a chance and if you can't live with its trade offs, look for another.

We should keep in mind that all HD sets are a compromise. If I had called JVC and demanded they "fix" the sse problem on their dlp rptvs I'm sure they would have said they didn't know what I was talking about. So I returned the set which Home Theater mag had rated number two out of six rptvs. The same goes with dlp rainbows, glare on plasma screens, poor blacks on lcd screens etc.

You just decide what trade offs you can live with. I couldn't live with dlp rainbows (many can) and the silk screen effect on the Samsung, Sony, Toshiba and JVC digital rear projection sets I looked at (obviously many can). I could live with the glare on a plasma screen but not the price tag. I can live with the slight sse (much less to my eyes than on digital rptvs) on my hitachi and the color tint issue on the screen (which I do see) especially if I can reduce it significantly with lens striping.

I just say give this set a chance and if you can't live with its trade offs, look for another.

I just noticed this tint issue on my set last night..............thanks guys!!! :rolleyes: JK, I had noticed it before a little bit before my blue CRT gun was replaced under warranty......................now its a little more apparent. I actually noticed it, not on a white screen.......but playing the first level of Super Mario Brothers.......the pale blue background had a reddish tint from almost the middle to the left! I plan to give it until 100 hours on the new blue gun and then if still persistent I will lens stripe it. I absolutely love this set.......especially given what I paid for it! MDelling is right........all technologies have there shortcomings.....................no set will be perfect in my experience, there will always be some small flaw that maybe only you will see. However, remember the price with these Hitachi's! Maybe the little flaw won't bother you as much when you realize that you could have spent thousands more with a different or more obvious flaw! :p I just cringe at the horror stories I have read here regarding expensive lamp replacements on some other RPTVS! Not to mention green blobs, stuck pixels (which I have experienced first hand several times!) RBE, etc., etc., etc.!

Go back to Post #3. I added the link to the Keohi HDTV site for the lens striping information.

so if i understand it correctly, lens striping involves putting electrical tape over the edges of the crt guns?

do i need to buy a color analyzer? can anyone recommend a good one?

I understand that all hd technologies are a compromise. That is why if I return this set I will just stick with a 27" crt that I was using before this. (If I can control myself.)

THANKS jwebb!!

I finally got everything to work! It turns out, on MY REMOTE there are three modes. Normal TV mode, Adjustment mode, and for lack of a better term "finishing/confimation/exit" mode.

Once the TV set is in dynamic adjustment mode (TV(hold) Aspect (press-release) nine (press-release) TV (release), Stop (press release)

To get MY REMOTE from Normal mode into Adjustment mode:

TV (hold) 0 (press-release) 1 (press-release) TV (release)

All DCAM adjustment keys NOW work, but none of the calculating, saving, initializing, or exiting keys work. Once adjustments have been made, in order to perform a calculation, write to ROM, initialize MF, or exit I need to put MY remote into:

Finish/Confirmation/Exit mode-> TV(hold) menu (press release) info (press release) TV(release)

In this mode Aspect DOES write to ROM, guide DOES the calculation, and yes PLAY (press release) Exit (Press Release) gets the TV set out of Dynamic adjustment mode as it should.

THEN: for good measure, to get my remote from Finish/Confirmation/Exit mode into normal mode:

TV(hold) 0 (press-release) 1 (press-release) TV (release) (<--look familiar??)

TV shuts off, when turned on, remote and set is in normal viewing mode.

Dont know if it's just my remote or my set, but THIS works for my CLU-4362S and 2006 Hit model.

BTW This is not the same as what the service manual says. Go figure..

THANKS jwebb!!

I finally got everything to work! It turns out, on MY REMOTE there are three modes. Normal TV mode, Adjustment mode, and for lack of a better term "finishing/confimation/exit" mode.

Once the TV set is in dynamic adjustment mode (TV(hold) Aspect (press-release) nine (press-release) TV (release), Stop (press release)

To get MY REMOTE from Normal mode into Adjustment mode:

TV (hold) 0 (press-release) 1 (press-release) TV (release)

All DCAM adjustment keys NOW work, but none of the calculating, saving, initializing, or exiting keys work. Once adjustments have been made, in order to perform a calculation, write to ROM, initialize MF, or exit I need to put MY remote into:

Finish/Confirmation/Exit mode-> TV(hold) menu (press release) info (press release) TV(release)

In this mode Aspect DOES write to ROM, guide DOES the calculation, and yes PLAY (press release) Exit (Press Release) gets the TV set out of Dynamic adjustment mode as it should.

THEN: for good measure, to get my remote from Finish/Confirmation/Exit mode into normal mode:

TV(hold) 0 (press-release) 1 (press-release) TV (release) (<--look familiar??)

TV shuts off, when turned on, remote and set is in normal viewing mode.

Dont know if it's just my remote or my set, but THIS works for my CLU-4362S and 2006 Hit model.

BTW This is not the same as what the service manual says. Go figure..


Very elaborate, but obviously very important as well. I am printing this out for my on location archives. Thanks!

I knew the manu's were intent on making it difficult for DIYers to go in and screw around on their sets internals, but this is ridiculous!

:rolleyes:

Mr Bob

Mr. Bob,

What price would we be talking about for a 51 HD lenticular"? How noticeable is SSE on those? I find SSE on the Hit occasionally noticeable but acceptable, especially compared to the JVC LCOS set I had for a couple weeks which was just intolerable.

Also, Mr. Bob Is there any practical way a home user could do a grey scale calibration perhaps in consultation with you over the phone? I live in SE Iowa and the nearest ISF guy is 2 and a half hours away. I don't know what he charges but since 5 hours of his time would just be travel, it probably doesn't make a lot of sense to even consider it.

Thanks


You're typically looking at between $250-300 + S&H for a replacement lenticular, would have to do some checking for sure. Mit doesn't make a 51", so would need to get you a 55" screen that you would have to cut down to 51" size, and of course it would not be returnable after that. It is only returnable/refundable in mint/received condition, so that they can then resell it to others as new. No shipping fees would be refundable.

I am willing to do some more investigation on this issue for you if you are serious about something that at this point is purely speculative on my part.

I would suggest that you go out into the marketplace, anywhere you can find this unit and/or other CRT RPTV units, inlcuding other models of Hit, and try to do some viewing tests that would make sure it will work before we go to all that trouble.


As far as grayscale goes, yes I think a phone consultation could yeild improvements to your grayscale, but of course without at least a valid D6500K reference, you cannot AB compare what you have to what you want.

But I could coach you on building your own makeshift optical comparator, and there are other things we could talk about which might be valuable to you.


Mr Bob

do i need to buy a color analyzer? can anyone recommend a good one?



Use of a CA is not necessary for lenstriping issues. You can let your eyes do the talking, for that. It's strictly white comparisons that are needed, the most you'll need to do for testing is get a test disc with all white patterns, and trust your eyes.

After all, if your eyes can't see anything on your set that is objectionable in your white field unifomity, it's all moot anyway.


Mr Bob

Paul - I have attempted a lens-striping mod with my 'replacement' 51F59 and thus far have made improvements in the red/blue color shift. However in the middle of the screen is still a blue and red hotspot that I CANNOT get rid of as of yet.

I have largely eliminated any excess red and blue from the edges of the screen on their respective sides, but getting rid of it from the middle is hardly an easy task. If I go any further in from the sides, I end up eliminating the red or blue color entirely from the edges by blocking too much of each CRTs output.


My recommendation of trying an alternate lenticular is strictly coming from side to side viewing differences I have seen in the veiwed white field, on old gen lents vs. new gen lents.

If the phenom in question is viewable from straight on in the front viewing position and the red/blue shift does not get exacerbated by walking your eyes to viewing from the right side, then from the left side and vice versa, by at least 30 degrees off axis on each side, then changing out your lenticular to a better one prolly won't help.

I have seen all manner of lenstriping out there, including reverse image jackolantern faces on a certain series of Mits's, which is why I don't support JUST laying tape over the outsides of your lenses.

That IS the most prevalent form I have seen out there, tho, an definitely worth a try.


Mr Bob

Reposted from another thread:

I turned on my 51f59 today only to be greeted by several horizontal lines on the bottom half of the screen. These lines we not there the last time I had it on (late last night). I turned the tv off and on and that did nothing. I switched to another input to make sure that it wasn't bad dish reception and the lines were still there.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Bob
Are these lines superimposed on an otherwise good pic, or taking the place of some of the scanning that's supposed to be there?


Mr Bob

They appear to be superimposed, kind of creating a wavy effect.

A little bit more information...

There are horizontal, white lines right thru the middle of the screen. There are faint flickering lines from the middle all the way to the bottom. The bottom inch or two of the screen is several rolling black lines. I ran the HDMI fix just to be sure that was not the problem.

Any one have good display settings for the Xbxo 360 on the 51inch.

My Avia DVD came today. I was messing with the Color Decoder test pattern and after making sure saturation was set as close to ideal as I could eyeball it (no color analyzer here) I checked red first with the red filter and second by using the RGBOUT service menu setting to turn off the green and the blue guns. Both methods seemed to agree that with COLORG = 00 I had about 15% red push, with COLORG = 01 I was getting a 10% red pull, i.e. it was -10% on the scale. COLORG = 02 seemed to bring it to 0% or close.

So I'm running COLORG = 02 now. This is in line with the observation the other day that with the default state of COLORG = 00 being the reference, then COLORG = 01 removes the most red, then COLORG = 02 puts a little red back in, and COLORG = 03 puts slightly more red back in but still doesn't yield the intensity of red present in the default COLORG = 00 state.

Curiously (or not, I don't know...) when I checked green with the green filter, it seemed to indicate that I have a green pull going on of around 20% (- 20% on the scale...2nd one up from bottom). That made me re-check blue for saturation and it still showed that saturation was optimal (color in user menu @ 41).

P.S. This is on a Hitachi 51F59A

Hmmm almost every post ive ever seen (as far as ive seen this is the one thing most people agree on) that COLORG should be on 01 or 00, anyone else have anything to say about this?

Hi folks. I've been a lurker around here for quite awhile, so first I'd like to thank everyone for the enormous amount of information on this site!

I have a 57F710 that is just out of warranty (by 3 weeks), and suddenly have a weird problem with the digital tuner. There is one digital channel that has ceased to function (channel 15 is the frequency assignment). When the set tunes to that station, it eventually locks up and prevents any channel changes. Afterwards, the set will turn itself off and on, and it's difficult to get it working again. Does anyone know what might be causing this and what the solution might be? All of the other inputs, including the HDMI, appear to be working OK.

I tossed the dice and didn't buy a warranty for this, but I'm nevertheless extremely upset about the situation. I've had no issues with the set over the last year, but it's frustrating that immediately after the warranty expired that it's starting to have what I consider major issues. :mad:

Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Well, I've got it back to COLORG = 01 because after watching real world content it just looks better at 01. I don't know if Avia under shoots on red push or its just that my eyes are poorly calibrated for distinguishing the red vs red color match through the red filter on the Avia Color Decoder test pattern, because to my eyes COLORG =02 looks like it makes the red tones matchup better on the 0% patch on the test pattern. But real world content looks better @ 01. Go firgure. Guess that's why they sell color analyzers. :o

YOUTG range is 00 - 01 (on or off).

I'm curious if anyone's F59 had YOUTG set at 01 as shipped from the factory.

Mine was defaulted @ 00 (off), but turning it on (01) adds some fidelity to the picture, but may need to tame white highlights by reducing STATG2 from default 03 to lower value.

Turning it on (setting it to 01) seems to overcome some of the default tendency of my particular set (51F59A) to display a dark picture where bringing out shadow detail was a difficult dance with the contrast (white level) and brightness (black level) user controls. Using Avia to set white level and black level still had a lot of detail gone in the shadow areas (I think this is called black crush?), but after turning YOUTG on I can set contrast to 28 for night viewing, brightness at 48 and the picture looks very vibrant with good transparency and decent shadow detail. FWIW the avia moving bars black level test put my optimum black level at 48 - 51 on the user brightness adjustment.

Sorry for the long edit, but this tweak might be worth trying if you have trouble getting shadow detail and picture fidelity balanced. YOUTG is under TA1360 in the service menu, just below STATG1 and STATG2.

Well, I've got it back to COLORG = 01 because after watching real world content it just looks better at 01. I don't know if Avia under shoots on red push or its just that my eyes are poorly calibrated for distinguishing the red vs red color match through the red filter on the Avia Color Decoder test pattern, because to my eyes COLORG =02 looks like it makes the red tones matchup better on the 0% patch on the test pattern. But real world content looks better @ 01. Go firgure. Guess that's why they sell color analyzers. :o


Sorry Charlie, you don't use color analyzers for color decoding. ONLY for grayscale.

Tests for red push - or as I call it, "blue/green diminish when fleshtones are prioritized" - and/or other color decoding anomalies are strictly on your eyes, and the proper test patterns. That's the only way to do color decoding, your color analyzer is completely useless for color decoding.

AVIA's color patterns are excellent, BTW, but only work for DVD. HD patterns need to be used to realign HD color decoding.


Green is always a wild card with filters. Luckily enough the level of green in your video material is nowhere near as critical as the level of red, since red determines your fleshtones.


Mr Bob

Looks like I ditched my old ConfusedNoob username too quickly :D


Sorry Charlie, you don't use color analyzers for color decoding. ONLY for grayscale.

Mr Bob

If you remove the front grill you will see on either side of the button panel (the buttons the duplicate the remote functions) is a screw. If you remove these two screws the button panel comes off, buttons and all. It's connected to the inside by wires which are long enough to pull the panel away and look inside. I let the panel hang gently by the wires, it weighs very little, but I suppose it would be better to rig something to rest it on. Note that I am not talking about the rectangle of particle board down below that you remove to get access to the electronic focus control - you can leave that on - but the little panel right under the screen.

Anyway you can look inside the set with the panel removed and you will see the crt gun's cylindrical barrels tilted slightly away from you toward the mirror on the back of the set. If the set is on you can see color leaking out showing which is which, the red gun is on the left. Directly facing you on the side of each gun's lens barrel is a wing nut. If you loosen it you can turn the focus ring at the top of each lens being careful not to touch the lens with your fingers and smudge it. You don't have to move it very much to alter focus. You probably won't turn the ring more than a few milimeters

See Mr. Bob's comments on focusing above.

I plan to do a careful focus of all 3 guns once I get the Avia disk with the recommended cross hatch pattern. Apparently the ones generated by the set are not ideal for this.

I want to try this on my set but I have a question first. I am not used to going into TV's and I wonder if there is any danger in trying to focus the 51f59 by this method. So, is there any possiblity I will run into circuitry and be shocked by trying to do mechanical focus through the front panel?

I want to try this on my set but I have a question first. I am not used to going into TV's and I wonder if there is any danger in trying to focus the 51f59 by this method. So, is there any possiblity I will run into circuitry and be shocked by trying to do mechanical focus through the front panel?


Not if you stay VERY clear on WHICH front panel he's talking about.

NOT the lowermost panel - that gets you in to where there IS voltage to worry about.

Not the screen itself, tho my method, the Cantilever Technique, involves moving the screen and working it.

If you follow his directions TO THE LETTER, you will be OK. You'll stay in the optical cavity, and NOT enter the electrical cavity down below.

There's nothing to worry about in the optical cavity itself, where the mirror and lens tops are, in the top half of the unit. Just keep that lower panel on, down below, don't remove it.


Mr Bob

Bahh! Ok I'm new to this. I decided to try to tweak mine and after a few hours of searching online i came across here. Anyways I was trying to get to the service menu and then I got to some menu and accidenly hit something and my whole screen went white and I couldn't see anything.. so after hitting random buttons on the remote control I decided just to turn it off but that wouldn't work either so I just popped it off at the surge protector. Then I tried messin with again and go a bunch of other random things to occur like other color screens and was in weird menus I couldn't get out of. I don't know what i did but now the aspect button and the day/night button on my remote control don't work at all and my white color looks yellowish. Anyways I can just reset it back to factory?

I want to try this on my set but I have a question first. I am not used to going into TV's and I wonder if there is any danger in trying to focus the 51f59 by this method. So, is there any possiblity I will run into circuitry and be shocked by trying to do mechanical focus through the front panel?

I could be wrong but I don't think you can access the 51f59 from the front. I believe this can only be done with the 2 larger models. I have the 57" and used this method of adjusting the lenses. You have to just carefully let the center panel dangle.

Bahh! Ok I'm new to this. I decided to try to tweak mine and after a few hours of searching online i came across here. Anyways I was trying to get to the service menu and then I got to some menu and accidenly hit something and my whole screen went white and I couldn't see anything.. so after hitting random buttons on the remote control I decided just to turn it off but that wouldn't work either so I just popped it off at the surge protector. Then I tried messin with again and go a bunch of other random things to occur like other color screens and was in weird menus I couldn't get out of. I don't know what i did but now the aspect button and the day/night button on my remote control don't work at all and my white color looks yellowish. Anyways I can just reset it back to factory?

Try hitting the exit button on your remote. Do not reset back to factory. You will screw up your TV.

Try hitting the exit button on your remote. Do not reset back to factory. You will screw up your TV.

Depends. FACT RESET in the service menu only resets all user menu options back to factory presets (contrast 100, brightness 50, color 50, sharpness 50, etc etc).. It is MEMORY INITIALIZE in the service menu that will nuke a lot of internal color balance settings and should be avoided.

The settings you guys gave me for component were great, but now I have ordered a hdmi cable from MonoPrice(thank God they finally got them back in.). I was wondering if anyone had good settings for using a hdmi cable. Also what is the hdmi problem seem to keep talking about on here.

I could be wrong but I don't think you can access the 51f59 from the front. I believe this can only be done with the 2 larger models. I have the 57" and used this method of adjusting the lenses. You have to just carefully let the center panel dangle.

Has anyone tried to do the mechanical focus from the front panel on the 51" model?

Bahh! Ok I'm new to this. I decided to try to tweak mine and after a few hours of searching online i came across here. Anyways I was trying to get to the service menu and then I got to some menu and accidenly hit something and my whole screen went white and I couldn't see anything.. so after hitting random buttons on the remote control I decided just to turn it off but that wouldn't work either so I just popped it off at the surge protector. Then I tried messin with again and go a bunch of other random things to occur like other color screens and was in weird menus I couldn't get out of. I don't know what i did but now the aspect button and the day/night button on my remote control don't work at all and my white color looks yellowish. Anyways I can just reset it back to factory?


The days of simply hitting buttons till you get it right went out with the advent of the service menu. Those days are OVER! Gone for good!

Once you're in there, you can screw your set up incredibly badly with just a few miscommands.

Good luck!


Mr Bob

YOUTG range is 00 - 01 (on or off).

I'm curious if anyone's F59 had YOUTG set at 01 as shipped from the factory.

Mine was defaulted @ 00 (off), but turning it on (01) adds some fidelity to the picture, but may need to tame white highlights by reducing STATG2 from default 03 to lower value.

Turning it on (setting it to 01) seems to overcome some of the default tendency of my particular set (51F59A) to display a dark picture where bringing out shadow detail was a difficult dance with the contrast (white level) and brightness (black level) user controls. Using Avia to set white level and black level still had a lot of detail gone in the shadow areas (I think this is called black crush?), but after turning YOUTG on I can set contrast to 28 for night viewing, brightness at 48 and the picture looks very vibrant with good transparency and decent shadow detail. FWIW the avia moving bars black level test put my optimum black level at 48 - 51 on the user brightness adjustment.

Sorry for the long edit, but this tweak might be worth trying if you have trouble getting shadow detail and picture fidelity balanced. YOUTG is under TA1360 in the service menu, just below STATG1 and STATG2.


does anyone now if this is a GOOD tweak for the tv

I can't seem to get into the service menus can anyone help me.

Does anyone know the default settings of srtga, statg1, and statg2 are in the service menu.

Adjusting mechanical focus from the front of the 51f59 is easy, much easier than doing it from the back. As noted by Mr. Bob, you don't remove the particle board panel in the base of the TV that gives access to the electronics (although, if you want to tighten up the electronic focus, you DO remove that panel, but that's another tweak) Mechanical or optical focus, as I mentioned before, involves removing the button panel (with the on/off switch on it, the menu button etc). The opening is narrow but wide enough to get your hand in easily. It's pretty obvious when you do it that your in the right place because you can see the light shining out of the lenses and if you look inside you can see the mirror on the back the set that the lenses are shining on.

You can use the grid on the 117 pt convergence screen for focusing but as Mr. Bob recommends, the Avia disk has a 50 ire cross hatch that is finer and better suited for this kind of adjustment.

The service manual contains some rather complicated instructions for getting the focus just right based on the color of the inside focus and outside focus chromatic aberation bands visible on either side of the white lines on the cross hatch. But I just turned the ring until the cross hatch looked nice and sharp and left it at that. With the green and red guns that is easy to do. Focusing blue is harder since it scatters more when it hits the screen but you don't really have to focus blue (it comes from the factory deliberate a bit out of focus) anyway since your eye relies mainly on red and green for the sense of sharpness in a picture.

On my set it was worth doing. The green didn't need to be messed with so I left it alone, but the red was a bit off. I've got the focus nice and tight now and my picture looks pretty sharp. All that I have left to do is a DCAM (service menu) convergence.

Follow an optical focus with a check of the electronic focus. That is a more delicate procedure since you have to open the panel that gives access to the electronics and be sure you turn the right knobs as turning the wrong ones can screw things up. How to do it is described at the beginning of this thread.

Thanks! I am going to be out of town until Tuesday but as soon as I get back I am going to try it. It isn't too bad right now but I have noticed that LCD TVs look ALOT sharper. Perhaps that is just because of the technology but I am not completely convinced. I think my good ole' Hit has some hidden sharpness. I am definitely excited to see mechanical focus will make a difference.

I have a question about reducing overscan and sharpness. I really don't mind the overscan on my TV all that much but I wonder if reducing it would greatly increase the sharpness of the picture. So, does reducing overscan greatly affect sharpness?

YOUTG range is 00 - 01 (on or off).

I'm curious if anyone's F59 had YOUTG set at 01 as shipped from the factory.

Mine was defaulted @ 00 (off), but turning it on (01) adds some fidelity to the picture, but may need to tame white highlights by reducing STATG2 from default 03 to lower value.



Nope, mine was at 00 and looks much better that way. I have done the other "standard" forum tweaks, including changing STATG1 from 00 to 06 and STATG2 from 03 to 00. As they say, though, what looks good to your eyes is what is important.

Michael

I can't seem to get into the service menus can anyone help me.

I have not had the chance to try the new way of setting your remote to sm, but I can tell you that the old way was simply infuriating! Sometimes I'd get lucky and get in, most times I would not. Even the techs at tech support could not get me a way in that was trustworthy, and stated that they were aware that getting in was a really tricky thing to pull off.

But I found the secret.

When you turn off the set and hit Input/Menu and hold as you turn it on again, WAIT NO MORE THAN 3 SECONDS.

I always make it a point to never turn on a set less than 5 seconds after it's been turned off, because kids do this sometimes and damage the set by doing so. They just can't get enough of that instant gratification!

Waiting 5 seconds in this instance will cause your sm ingress to stay out of your grasp.

Waiting only 3 seconds will get you in, EVERY TIME. Just count it off, and on the third second after turn off, have the menu button already pushed in, and turn the set on again. You'll be in.


Again, I have only used this method for sets expecting this method. Can't say why you aren't getting in.


Mr Bob

The service manual contains some rather complicated instructions for getting the focus just right based on the color of the inside focus and outside focus chromatic aberation bands visible on either side of the white lines on the cross hatch. But I just turned the ring until the cross hatch looked nice and sharp and left it at that. With the green and red guns that is easy to do. Focusing blue is harder since it scatters more when it hits the screen but you don't really have to focus blue (it comes from the factory deliberate a bit out of focus) anyway since your eye relies mainly on red and green for the sense of sharpness in a picture.

I don't know why they included those aberration comments in the s man. It's hogwash, IMHO, designed to keep the "mystique" going, on optical focus.

I just focus on the hor scanlines in the AVIA grid, and the dashes that make up the vertical lines.

Blue can be tightly focused, but if changed, will alter the blue in your whites. So if you are in agreement with your grayscale as it is on your b/w material, don't change the blue focus. As mentioned, blue is more of a fill color, while the other 2 are the actual structure colors.


On my set it was worth doing. The green didn't need to be messed with so I left it alone, but the red was a bit off. I've got the focus nice and tight now and my picture looks pretty sharp.


Every set will be different. Yours may or may not need refocusing at all. Don't ever think yours needs work on the focus just because someone else's did.


Mr Bob

I have a question about reducing overscan and sharpness. I really don't mind the overscan on my TV all that much but I wonder if reducing it would greatly increase the sharpness of the picture. So, does reducing overscan greatly affect sharpness?


It adds dimensionality, but only after a very high precision convergence, along with supertight focusing. On a Hit, getting the conv really supertight usually involves several passes and memorizations, esp. after the o scan reduct, and not using the MF after the last pass. It also is best on the newer units, where you can use sent-in patterns like AVIA's 50Ire grids. The older units force you to use the internal grids, which suck for conv.

When ALL of these things have been dialed in precisely, THEN your res will have gone up.

Leave out any one of these steps, and the only advantage to overscan reduction is recovering lost areas of picture.

Dialing in ALL of it gets you a pic so sharp you can sit there and study the grain of the film used to shoot movies, on your set.

That is my criterion for all calibrations I do.


Mr Bob

Well, I just had my first experience with the green screen on my 51F59. Watching an HD channel on HDMI and suddenly the screen went solid bright green. Switching to the component inputs did not help (I have both HDMI and component connected to the HD box, HDMI direct and component through my receiver).

Changing the channel to an SD source kicked it back into a picture and then changing back to HD was fine.

So now the big question. Do I attempt the HDMI fix on my own or call Hitachi to have someone come out and do it? I just got the TV this past Tuesday and would prefer to have a service record on file for this issue if it is going to continue. If the fix will absolutely clear it up then I'll attempt it myself.

Well, I just had my first experience with the green screen on my 51F59. Watching an HD channel on HDMI and suddenly the screen went solid bright green. Switching to the component inputs did not help (I have both HDMI and component connected to the HD box, HDMI direct and component through my receiver).

Changing the channel to an SD source kicked it back into a picture and then changing back to HD was fine.

So now the big question. Do I attempt the HDMI fix on my own or call Hitachi to have someone come out and do it? I just got the TV this past Tuesday and would prefer to have a service record on file for this issue if it is going to continue. If the fix will absolutely clear it up then I'll attempt it myself.


If you have never been in there before, let Hit do it, you're still WAY inside the warranty period.


Unless one is already adept at getting into a Hit - or ANY CRT RPTV - and out again without consequence, if you're in warranty, stay outa there. You don't need to be in there, taking chances with your expensive display, while you can still have Hit do it for you, at no charge to you.

There are ALWAYS unpleasant things that can happen in there, things that can blindside you. I have been doing cals for over 20 years, and could tellya some tales...

:eek:

Mr Bob

Thank you, I will initiate it through Hitachi then. :-)

Does anyone know the default settings of srtga, statg1, and statg2 are in the service menu.

SRTGA = 10 (Super Real Transient Gain, effect is similar to sharpness adjustment)

STATG1 = 00 (Static Y Gamma Black Gain, range is 00 - 07)

STATG2 = 03 (Static Y Gamma Bright Gain, range is 00 - 03)

And a few others in TA1360 that are handy to know the defaults of:

SUB-BRT = 74 (sub-brightness, default seems to vary by a few clicks on different F59 series tv's)

SUBCNT = 12 (sub-contrast)

SHARP-NTSC = 22 (Analog_CH/NTSC)
SHARP-SDTV = 1C (Digital_CH/YPBPR/HDMI_480i/480p)
SHARP-HDTV = 1C (HDMI_1080i/720p)

CDE = 00 (Color Detail Enhancer, 00 - 03. higher value has no visible effect)

BLACK-AUTO = 00 (Black Level Auto Correction Switch, 00 = off, 01 = on)

YOUTG = 00 (Y Gamma Switch, 00 = off, 01 = on)

GSTR = 00 (Green Stretch)

BSTRG = 00 (Blue Stretch Gain)

It adds dimensionality, but only after a very high precision convergence, along with supertight focusing. On a Hit, getting the conv really supertight usually involves several passes and memorizations, esp. after the o scan reduct, and not using the MF after the last pass. It also is best on the newer units, where you can use sent-in patterns like AVIA's 50Ire grids. The older units force you to use the internal grids, which suck for conv.

When ALL of these things have been dialed in precisely, THEN your res will have gone up.

Leave out any one of these steps, and the only advantage to overscan reduction is recovering lost areas of picture.

Dialing in ALL of it gets you a pic so sharp you can sit there and study the grain of the film used to shoot movies, on your set.

That is my criterion for all calibrations I do.


Mr Bob

Very true.

It did take several passes of DCAM (over the course of a couple of days, actually) to get my post-overscan reduction convergence tight (esp. at the extreme edges).

While I was fine with factory overscan settings (esp. after reinstating them after a failed 1st attempt @ overscan reduction), I'm glad I did it right--thanks to some invaluable info from Mr Bob, BTW. Picture has never been better.

Of course, if a DIY overscan reduction sounds a bit daunting---well, that's what guys like Bob are in business for ;) . Even though I've done several calibration tweaks to my set--and it looks great--I'm still planning on a visit from Bob in the near future to get it "all the way" perfect.

Those who have had full-blown cals done on their sets all believe it was $$ well spent.

Now that overscan correction has been brought up. Is it hard for the DIYer? I want to do everything I can to get my set as sharp as possible. Where can I find posted a description of the process?

Also, when you guys say that it takes several passes to get DCAM right. Do you mean you do the convergence, write it to ROM, than go back in and touch it up and again, write it to ROM again and keep doing that several times?

And thanks VivatHD for the default settings.

Mark

Now that overscan correction has been brought up. Is it hard for the DIYer? I want to do everything I can to get my set as sharp as possible. Where can I find posted a description of the process?

Also, when you guys say that it takes several passes to get DCAM right. Do you mean you do the convergence, write it to ROM, than go back in and touch it up and again, write it to ROM again and keep doing that several times?

And thanks VivatHD for the default settings.

Mark

The act of simply reducing overscan is not difficult. The process of re-doing both convergence and potential (and virtually likely) geometry corrections can be both time-consuming and headache inducing! :D

"Several passes of DCAM" means that settings written to ROM may have to be done so a few times (Mr Bob's Hitachi experience has shown it can take about 5 times) before they fully commit to memory. Don't know why, but apparently has to do with how Hit ROM chips store info (I'm guessing).

Basically, write the conv. settings to ROM, exit DCAM, then go back in and check/make corrections, then repeat. Usually, by the fourth/fifth time this gets done, the settings should "stick" without drifting.

I'm gonna wait for Mr Bob to chime in on this before I go any further! :D

However, I will tell you that the adjustment pots for the F59 H/V size adjustment (overscan) are located inside the front service panel that accesses the lower cavity of the set (behind the spkr grill--to the left of the "blue" button that will activate DCAM). They are 2 white plastic pots, attached to the circuit board and facing forward, with "Philips-head" tops. The left handles left/right size (vertical), the right one for top/bottom (horizontal).

If your DIY skills are enough to attempt it, great. But if not, this is likely best handled by a ISF calibrator. Wait for more info to make the determination.

Any easy way out of any overscan-reduction mishaps (for me on the first attempt anyway) was using the screen jig and the service menu instructions for getting overscan/geometry back to factory specs---covered in the early pages of this very thread. Poster cavery supplied us with links to his screen jigs for all 3 sizes of F59 (in .pdf format) that can be dumped to CD and ran off onto mylar or vellum on an AutoCAD at most any print shop. Of course, the screen jig only works for factory spec overscan and--since finally getting my overscan reduced and conv/geo properly tweaked--the screen jig is now useless for me. Still find that the method of using outsdie video sources for both conv/geometry is best.

I'm gonna wait for Mr Bob to chime in on this before I go any further! :D



Yer doin' great! Haven't seen anything that I feel needs correcting so far -

Just be aware of the calibration mantra: ALWAYS RECORD EVERYTHING BEFORE DOING ANYTHING. The only exception to this that I know of is the point sys, where recording the loc of every point would be extremely cumbersome.

Even so, I did that on all the points of a Pioneer a year or 2 ago, before I tried zeroing out its points. Didn't work - wasn't going to help, which eventually became very apparent, halfway thru. Boy, was I glad I had made a record of all those point values!

But marking the beginning positions of those screwdriver pots would be in keeping with the advice above, so you can always go back.

That bread crumbs trail can be EXTREMELY valuable!

:cool:

Mr Bob

Thanks for the info Jwebb!

Think I'll skip the overscan reduction (headaches, I'm not looking for) and just go for DCAM (I already have the focus pretty tight).

Yer doin' great! Haven't seen anything that I feel needs correcting so far -

:cool:

Mr Bob

Thank you, sir! Means a lot and gives me some assurance that I won't get too many hateful "you f****d up my TV" PMs in the near future!!!! :D I've learned more about the subjects discussed here from various conversations with you in here and via email/PM in the last few months than anywhere else!


Yeah...so, mdelling's overscan questions.....

First, you should see where your set's overscan lies right now. Best way for that is via AVIA's overscan pattern (imagine that DVE has one, too---just never used it). Commonly, the F59s come OOB with overscan around 5-5.5% left/right and 3.5-4% top/bottom. Having the AVIA pattern displayed while making the physical adjustments is probably the best way to start. My set was at around 4% top/bottom already and I only reigned it in VERY slightly. Left/right was actually a little greater than the factory spec 5.5%. It now lies @ just under 5%--could maybe go more but I'm happy with the PQ now, so I'll leave that for a future calibration. (keep you posted, Bob!)

The main reason I reigned in overscan originally was due to the fact that a couple of the network ID logo "corner bugs" (ABCHD, Universal HD and MHD) were partially cut off on the right. Horizontal centering from the service menu could bring them into full view, but of course the left side image would get cut off. the added benefit from this adjustment, beyond all the cut-off images now being seen, has been a slightly "tighter" picture. All that stuff Bob mentioned about studying actual film grain and seeing more fine detail? He's absolutely right. HD and upscaled DVD looks flippin' sweet!

Once you reign in the overscan, you'll find that your convergence and some geometry (esp the edges) has kinda gone to hell. It was this result that led me to basically eschew ever using the F59 internal DCAM grid (or a screen jig) on it's own for fixing such things ever again. For me, the first thing was to get basic convergence close. When in DCAM, press the F59 remote MENU button repeatedly. This scrolls thru the different onscreen DCAM modes: internal grid, int. grid as isolated color (red is default-has yellow grid), external video w/ grid overlayed, ext video with movable crosshair (select color for adj by pressing SELECT on remote), and same as previous, but without the white cross in the middle of the movable crosshair. The movable crosshairs resemble the 9pt MF manual adj. crosshairs in the user menu.

One note---if you plan to use an ext. video source, make sure your set is tuned to it before entering DCAM. You can't switch inputs (say from DVD to cable, for example) while in DCAM. If you are going to use something like AVIA (highly recommended), make sure it's on screen first--likely anyway, if you used it's overscan pattern initially. You'll still be able to perform all DVD player functions while the set is in DCAM for accessing various AVIA references or switching DVDs.

Once you get initial convergence close, you can then start to address geometry. The 50 IRE AVIA crosshatch is a good reference. Display it and see if all the lines look straight. To straighten out geo errors, you'll have to adjust green in DCAM first, then line blue/red up accordingly. By having ext video on screen while doing this (I used the internal crosshatch over ext video mode for this), you can actually see geo. errors straighten out before your eyes as you make adjustments. I also used some 2.35:1 ratio DVD movies (ones that still display some black bars in 16x9 mode--Star Wars flicks are examples) to check to see if the lines btwn the movie image and the black letterbox bars were straight.

Yet another geo. reference is rolling credits at the end of a movie. If geo. is off anywhere on screen, this will show it. You'll see visual "speedbumps" or "squishing" on the edges in what should be smoothly uniform scrolling text (bottom text crawls on CNN or ESPN also work for spotting some vertical geo. errors.). Again, I used the int. grid over video mode to fix any of these. Also, any video that utilizes panning images (many documentaries do this--I use the Empire of Dreams doc from the Star Wars Trilogy DVD set to check geo. in this manner).

Geometry can be a painstaking thing to fix at times, but it's essential to overall PQ, IMHO. Once it's done, you can then move on to overall convergence tightening. For this, I used the internal crosshairs over ext. video mode-esp. the 2nd version of this that eliminates the white cross in the middle of the crosshair. You see 4 bars of the selected color (at this point it should only be red/blue that are dealt with) either surrounding a white crosshair or not--if you select the mode that eliminates it. You move the crosshair around the screen just as you do when moving the adjustment cursor on the DCAM grid. I used this feature to do convergence fixes/touchups on both the AVIA 50 IRE crosshatch and with actual video from DVDs and/or HD cable. A combo of text (I used DVD menus and even some of my cable guide displays) and moving images (DVDs or DVR'ed HD programming for me) seem to work best to get everything dialed in. The crosshairs over video mode was great to really tighten up edges as well as various other points around the screen.

It really comes down to getting used to doing adjustments this way to get the hang of it...all the typing in the world that I do here will never equal actual hands-on experience. I suggest trying the various DCAM modes first, prior to doing the overscan work. This will get you used to using ext video sources while doing DCAM work. Of course, all DCAM instructions mentioned elsewhere on this thread apply here, too (remote commands, writing to ROM, MF re-initialization, etc).

Couple more things. How far in you go with overscan will likely effect how much conv/geo fixing you'll need to do. It is possible to go in too far (how far is too far is a question I won't try and answer). You can go too far in to nullify Auto MF, though. Auto MF relies on sensors inside the screen that use the internal DCAM grid to make the auto adjustments. If the size of the int. grid changes too much (overscan reduced beyond the limits of the sensors), MF can not be re-initialized. Is this a bad thing? Not neccessarily, since you are likely to never utilize MF after a precision convergence adjustment anyway! Just needs to be re-initialized after writing DCAM info to ROM if you want it to reman active. Mr Bob doesn't do this on his last conv pass and instructs users to ignore MF altogether. If you go too far for MF, worst is a case of a an error msg on screen after attempting to reinitialize MF. Won't negate the normal DCAM info, though. Just will render any MF usage impossible.

Another point to consider is that after all this work, you may find that when viewing your set's internal DCAM grid that things look out of alignment, yet actual video images are tightly aligned and focused. As Bob has stated on this thread before, int. DCAM grids are fairly useless in terms of actual convergence uniformity. I found this the case especially after doing my own successful overscan reduction. Freaked me out a little at first (always thought the DCAM grid was the convergence Holy Grail) but now I know better. Any and all future convergence touchups I do will be in DCAM with actual video displayed. The only way to know that your convergence is solid for "real-life" video.

Hope this helps you a bit, mdelling----sorry for my lack of brevity!

And hope Mr Bob reads this, too. Always appreciate any corrections you deem neccessary!

hey i have my tv hooked up to my cable box through hdmi i have the hddvr by cablevision and when i set the audio out in the cablebox settings to Dolby digital i get no sound out if the tv but i do get sound out of my surround system.

"Several passes of DCAM" means that settings written to ROM may have to be done so a few times (Mr Bob's Hitachi experience has shown it can take about 5 times) before they fully commit to memory. Don't know why, but apparently has to do with how Hit ROM chips store info (I'm guessing).

I'm not doubting what you and Mr Bob say, but the memory on the DCU board in the F59 series is a standard 4k×8 bit Electrically Erasable BR24L32-W series PROM. According to the specs below, it has the expected memory life cycle. Don't know why it would exhibit incomplete data uptake (not saving all data on first pass).


BR24L32-W / BR24L32F-W / BR24L32FJ-W / BR24L32FV-W
The BR24L32-W series are 2-wire (I2C BUS type) serial EEPROMs which are electrically programmable.

Applications: General Purpose

Features:

1) 4k registers × 8 bits serial architecture.
2) Single power supply (1.8V to 5.5V).
3) Two wire serial interface.
4) Automatic erase.
5) 32byte Page Write Mode.
6) Low power consumption.
....Write (5V) : 1.5mA (Typ.)
....Read (5V) : 0.2mA (Typ.)
....Standby (5V) : 0.1μA (Typ.)
7) DATA security
...Write protect feature (WP pin).
...Inhibit to WRITE at low VCC.
8) Small package - - - DIP8 / SOP8 / SSOP-B8 pin
9) High reliability EEPROM with Double-Cell structure.
10) High reliability fine pattern CMOS technology.
11) Endurance : 1,000,000 erase / write cycles
12) Data retention : 40 years
13) Filtered inputs in SCL,SDA for noise suppression.
14) Initial data FFh in all address.

jwebb1970 -

Re overscan - Great synopsis!

I would add that your o scan %'s need to be ID to each other in the vertical vs. horizontal distances. You can't have 3.5% on one and 5.5% on the other and still expect a circle to be a circle. It'll be an oval. Measure the h vs. the v radius or diameter of that circle if you have to.

On HD, circles are hard to come by, tho if you have DirecTV, their early morning test pattern has one.

Since present day Hit's upconvert the 480 to 540 automatically, conv on 480 will cover conv on 1080i. But just doing 480 conv in 540 is not the best way. Tightening up the 1080i is the best way, but how do you do the geom on 1080i?

Simplest way is to get good oscan of 4-4.5% on AVIA on green, let that cover 1080i, then superconv the green onto red onto and red onto blue on HD, not DVD.

I always draw in the edges to see where they are on o scan for HD, and set them appropriately, but the AVIA pattern will get you real close, without having to do all that extra work.


Mr Bob

hey i have my tv hooked up to my cable box through hdmi i have the hddvr by cablevision and when i set the audio out in the cablebox settings to Dolby digital i get no sound out if the tv but i do get sound out of my surround system.

Weird. My cablebox is via component, so no help there. But my DVD is via HDMI and it gets audio from that as well as audio sent via optical to my receiver.

May be an issue with the box and how it outputs digital audio from more than one output at a time. How is your cable box connected to your surround system?

I'm not doubting what you and Mr Bob say, but the memory on the DCU board in the F59 series is a standard 4k×8 bit Electrically Erasable BR24L32-W series PROM. According to the specs below, it has the expected memory life cycle. Don't know why it would exhibit incomplete data uptake (not saving all data on first pass).




Don't know either. But I always trust what I experience firsthand, over written clinical data about same.

I trust you have verified my findings on your set? Others have -


Mr Bob

my surround system is hooked though optical here is the link to the cable vision website were they say it cablevision (http://cablevision.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/cablevision.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=2137&p_created=1170365290&p_sid=dzHDIPvi&p_lva=1509&p_sp=cF9zcmNoPTEmcF9zb3J0X2J5PSZwX2dyaWRzb3J0PSZwX3Jvd19jbnQ 9MSZwX3Byb2RzPTAmcF9jYXRzPSZwX3B2PSZwX2N2PSZwX3BhZ2U9MSZwX3N lYXJjaF90ZXh0PWhkdHYgc2V0dXA*&p_li=&p_topview=1)

Hey guys can I get some good settings for this tv through hdmi the component settings are great, but I should be getting a hdmi cable in a day or two and would like some good settings.

jwebb1970 -

Re overscan - Great synopsis!

Thanks for the vote of confidence! Almost considered deleting all of that prior to submitting it. Didn't want to be the source of more frustration than help!

My "trial and error" education in such things pales in comparison to the Jedi Master skills you wield in this arena.

I would add that your o scan %'s need to be ID to each other in the vertical vs. horizontal distances. You can't have 3.5% on one and 5.5% on the other and still expect a circle to be a circle. It'll be an oval. Measure the h vs. the v radius or diameter of that circle if you have to.

On HD, circles are hard to come by, tho if you have DirecTV, their early morning test pattern has one.

As far as o-scan varying btwn horiz/vert., any circle patterns I've used seem to be OK--no ovals on the THX Optimizer circle patterns, for example. Figured diff. percentages btwn h/v o-scan was a potential norm, since the Hit F59 factory specs are different (3.5-4% top/bottom and 5-5.5% l/r). Then again, those factory specs did need some tweaking for improved PQ, so what do I know! :rolleyes:

The "INHD Tune-Up" (Comcast version of the D* HD test patterns) has a convergence crosshatch that also has circles, BTW. Had that on my DVR for a while now. Circles appear round. Haven't measured diameter of circles, but now I think I may want too, just to be sure! ;) May even try bringing in the l/r to the same level as top/bottom (which is slightly less according to AVIA).....oh, more tweaking!! :eek: With things being as they are now, though, I'm guessing it won't be as much work.

Since present day Hits upconvert the 480 to 540 automatically, conv on 480 will cover conv on 1080i. But just doing 480 conv in 540 is not the best way. Tightening up the 1080i is the best way, but how do you do the geom on 1080i?

Was that a direct question or just a hypothetical to address the next bit of info?

I have used the INHD 1080i crosshatch/circles (although the lines on that are far brighter than the 50 IRE AVIA pattern).

Does playing AVIA on an upconverting DVD player via HDMI (sending out a 1080i signal) make a difference? I know it's not "true" HD, but it is esentially a 1080i signal. When using the widescreen-enhanced AVIA patterns, I set the player to output 4:3 images to "full" (stretched) to fill the screen anamorphically. Got my results this way, but if you have better suggestions, I'm all ears.

Simplest way is to get good oscan of 4-4.5% on AVIA on green, let that cover 1080i, then superconv the green onto red onto and red onto blue on HD, not DVD.

I always draw in the edges to see where they are on o scan for HD, and set them appropriately, but the AVIA pattern will get you real close, without having to do all that extra work.


Mr Bob

Yeah, my superconvergence tweaks have ALWAYS been on actual 1080i HD sources (usually DVR'ed network HD programming). Most DVD stuff (other than AVIA) has been more for checking geometry issues than anything else.

Don't know either. But I always trust what I experience firsthand, over written clinical data about same.

I trust you have verified my findings on your set? Others have -


Mr Bob

Took a few passes for me to get 'em to stick. Haven't drifted since.

Hey guys can I get some good settings for this tv through hdmi the component settings are great, but I should be getting a hdmi cable in a day or two and would like some good settings.

When I switched from component to HDMI for DVD, my overall user settings didn't change much. Maybe a little higher Color setting (if I recall), but that was about it.

Now, my old player was on input 4 via component. So when going HDMI with my new DVD unit, I of course went to input 1 (where the HDMI input is located) and was shocked at how bright and washed at it looked. Realized quickly that the video settings for that yet-to-be-used input were still at the factory levels.

I'd set your input 1 picture settings to the same as those on whatever input is having it's component (or whatever) input switched to HDMI then go from there.

Thanks for the vote of confidence! Almost considered deleting all of that prior to submitting it. Didn't want to be the source of more frustration than help!

My "trial and error" education in such things pales in comparison to the Jedi Master skills you wield in this arena.


May I quote you on that?

:D





As far as o-scan varying btwn horiz/vert., any circle patterns I've used seem to be OK--no ovals on the THX Optimizer circle patterns, for example. Figured diff. percentages btwn h/v o-scan was a potential norm, since the Hit F59 factory specs are different (3.5-4% top/bottom and 5-5.5% l/r). Then again, those factory specs did need some tweaking for improved PQ, so what do I know! :rolleyes:

If you're ever in doubt, you can always do the math. What are your h and w, and do they conform solidly to a 16x9 ratio?





The "INHD Tune-Up" (Comcast version of the D* HD test patterns) has a convergence crosshatch that also has circles, BTW. Had that on my DVR for a while now. Circles appear round. Haven't measured diameter of circles, but now I think I may want too, just to be sure! ;) May even try bringing in the l/r to the same level as top/bottom (which is slightly less according to AVIA).....oh, more tweaking!! :eek: With things being as they are now, though, I'm guessing it won't be as much work.



I haven't measured, but I am pretty sure the widescreen enhanced AVIA grids are perfectly 16x9, with a perfect circle also. Much better than the VE geometry, whose grids would never get a perfect 16x9 ratio to also be a perfect circle.




Was that a direct question or just a hypothetical to address the next bit of info?

Hypothetical with benefits...

No, it's really hard to have great overall patterns for HD in some cases. Unless you have a DVR which has captured circles, or a very expensive pattern gen'r, circles are not available, you have to do your linearities some other way. My Accupel does not have circles, and creator Greg Rogers explains that circles take way too much computation for any but the most expensive and most highly unaffordable gen'rs.


I have used the INHD 1080i crosshatch/circles (although the lines on that are far brighter than the 50 IRE AVIA pattern).

If you are just using it for geometry and linearity, the lines can be as thick as they want to be.


Does playing AVIA on an upconverting DVD player via HDMI (sending out a 1080i signal) make a difference? I know it's not "true" HD, but it is esentially a 1080i signal. When using the widescreen-enhanced AVIA patterns, I set the player to output 4:3 images to "full" (stretched) to fill the screen anamorphically. Got my results this way, but if you have better suggestions, I'm all ears.

Can't trust the geometry to be perfectly centered on both, and of course the color decoding can be completely different. But it can be useful in some cases, like sizing and linearity.



Yeah, my superconvergence tweaks have ALWAYS been on actual 1080i HD sources (usually DVR'ed network HD programming). Most DVD stuff (other than AVIA) has been more for checking geometry issues than anything else.


Cool.


Mr Bob

hey i have my tv hooked up to my cable box through hdmi i have the hddvr by cablevision and when i set the audio out in the cablebox settings to Dolby digital i get no sound out if the tv but i do get sound out of my surround system.

My cable box has a special setting for hdmi audio look for that, should be under audio scroll threw all the options.

How much would it you guys say it would cost to do an overscan fix and a dcam(I just dont trust my self with these)? Also could a ISF guy do a optical focus?

it does but u figure out that you need a decoder to use Dolby digital u have the scientific Atlantic hddvr

Sometimes reading and learning can be a downfall.

Now that I've read about it I see that my 51F59 shows a red tint on the left and a blue tint on the right when full screen white backgrounds are displayed. :eek:

How do I correct this? It's going to drive me nuts now. :(

First off this is an open question/request for opinions on Focus. In particular the "standard" optical focus and electronic focus (not sure how all the other fancy optics work, and I dont plan to play with em).

I have noticed a few things.

A. Optical focus for any of the CRTs can be adjusted so that it is at its tightest in the center. This can lead to what I can only describe as "Haloing" near the edges/corners. Lines/features there have a bright center with a large halo.

B. Optical focus can reduce "haloing" at the corners, but when the corners are as tight as possible the center focus is "fat" (not as tight as it could be).

C. Somewhere in the middle is a focus where haloing is reduced, focus is the same over most of the screen (very uniform), but it is not as tight as possible. This is how I have my set now. I miss the perfect tightness in the center but I dont miss the extreme blurriness of the edges/corners.

D. There MAY be a setting where the bright centers of lines etc are quite tight everywhere and the haloing is large but dim...

Does anyone have any opinion regarding what is the optimal setting/balance for optical focus??

E. In terms of the electronic focus, it seems to tighten/blur evenly (proportionally speaking) throughout the screen. I assume this can be used to adjust final widths (fatness) of the colors which couldnt be optically focused as tight as the other colors so that tightness of focus / haloing etc. is the same for all 3 CRTs. In other words, electronic focus, really is only about defocusing.

Does anyone have any opinion regarding what is the use of this electronic focus/defocus?? Should it be used to get rid of ALL colored halos?

What the best balance between center/edges&corners? How important is uniformity? Is it better to have a fat sharply defined circle or a tight bright dot with a halo around it??

Really curious about all your thoughts! Bob? jwebb??

peace
Colin

Very good questions about focus Colin, I was going pose similar questions.

How much would it you guys say it would cost to do an overscan fix and a dcam(I just dont trust my self with these)? Also could a ISF guy do a optical focus?

I charge travel plus $485 for cal of your primary scanrate, $285 for your secondary scanrate, which covers myriads of concerns, dcam among them. I charge $150-200 extra/scanrate for overscan reduction, depending on how much reducing your overscan cranks your picture around and hoses it, requiring revamping of your entire geometry/convergence paradigm, and how difficult they make it to redo. On Hit's and Mit's I usually charge $150/scanrate extra, Pioneer $200/scanrate extra.

Don't expect most ISF trained personel to know anything about calibrating your image structure, which is critical to all CRT RPTVs, and this includes their not knowing anything about anything you asked about, including optical focusing. They don't teach that at ISF.

I on the other hand, wrote the Cantilever Technique, which assures you of the tightest optical focusing possible, with the least amount of invasiveness possible, to your already possibly perfect focus.


Mr Bob

First off this is an open question/request for opinions on Focus. In particular the "standard" optical focus and electronic focus (not sure how all the other fancy optics work, and I dont plan to play with em).

I have noticed a few things...


This is a function of the elegance of your lenses.

The finest lenses available - very expensive - will get you perfect focusing past all the edges, and all the way out past the corners. Lesser lenses will get you fine in the center and abysmal at the edges.

Hit's fall somewhere in between. Where you set the measure of the tightest focusing point is up to you.

Sony recommends you set their focusing to be finest at halfway out from center to edge, allowing absolute center to be somewhat out, and the edges also, with the intervening area to be the tightest. I think that's a great setting.


Just keep in mind that your eyes follow the action mostly in the center, and rarely if at all at the edges. As such, I would want the inner 2/3 of the pic to be finest focus, and would allow the slop to be at the edges, where our eyes rarely go anyway.


E. In terms of the electronic focus, it seems to tighten/blur evenly (proportionally speaking) throughout the screen. I assume this can be used to adjust final widths (fatness) of the colors which couldnt be optically focused as tight as the other colors so that tightness of focus / haloing etc. is the same for all 3 CRTs. In other words, electronic focus, really is only about defocusing.

Does anyone have any opinion regarding what is the use of this electronic focus/defocus?? Should it be used to get rid of ALL colored halos?

The electrostatic focusing uses a grid within the CRT itself for focusing of the single beam that draws your picture, and so affects all points on the screen equally. It cannot affect the optical focusing, they are 2 completely different and independent systems, and have nothing to do with each other - no interactions - even tho they both focus your picture.

Attention has to be paid to each, yes, but separately, aside from that fact that if they are both out at the same time, it's hard to get one in without the other being in also. As such, sometimes you have to bounce back and forth between them until they are both set properly.



Mr Bob

Ahhh.....focus. :)

The only real focus issue I ever had with my F59 was with the red. Had some blooming-mostly on the edges of the screen. Focus was kinda out OOB, but I managed to tighten it up. While the edges are not as tight as they are closer to center (but more so than before adjustment), I only really notice this when viewing internal/external crosshatch grids. Really never an issue with actual video images. Don't really get any red bloom anywhere when viewing HD or DVD images anymore--much better than it was before.

Blue on mine seems fairly soft screen-wide (common, I know). Yet I like the way my whites look now, so it's fine where it is.

Green has always seemed the tightest of the 3. Bob, is this due to it's being in the center of the CRT array (as in less "bending" of the light to get it lined up on the mirror)?

May give the Sony recommended adjustments you mention a shot--at least with red. Then again, "normal" video looks fine now---so maybe I'll wait :rolleyes: .

Really, how often do we watch crosshatch grids for fun? :D

Another point I wanted to mention to Bob. Re-tweaked o-scan last night. Solid 4% all around now per AVIA. Since it was a fairly minor operation, the geo./conv. touchups were not nearly as time consuming. Actually got it all dialed up in about an hour and change. Time well spent--stuff looks great!

One question I meant to ask you regards Magic Focus. You have said in the past that you don't bother with MF initialization after your last pass of DCAM, right? Is this (in the case of Hits, anyway) becasue not re-initializing it negates it's use (if activated by accident)?

As a rule, I do the MF re-initialization after every DCAM pass. Mainly out of habit and following the service manual instructions. However, I don't ever activate MF (don't even use the manual user adj modes anymore) and actually haven't used the auto MF on this set since the first day it came off the CC truck. On my last Hit (43UWX10B), not initializing MF post-DCAM made it inactive (defaulted to a 9pt manual crosshair pattern when activated). Guessing it's the same situation on the F59. Is this why you don't do it yourself? Just curious.

Mr. Bob,

What's the best way to achieve good optical focus? Just eyeballing what looks tight - the obvious way? I only ask because Hits service manual has this complicated guideline based on the color and width of inside focus and outside focus chromatic aberration bands on either side of the grid lines.

I mean what's that all about? Can't you just turn the ring, fiddling with it till the grid looks sharp, (at, say, half way out toward the edge as you mentioned above) just like you would focus binos or a microscope?

Ahhh.....focus. :)

[QUOTE]
Green has always seemed the tightest of the 3. Bob, is this due to it's being in the center of the CRT array (as in less "bending" of the light to get it lined up on the mirror)?

NOTHING in there is parallel to anything else, not even the green. ALL have lenses that are not parallel to either the CRT faces nor the mirror, nor the screen itself. ALL the lenses have to be aimed very carefully, and their scheimpflug characteristics taken into account, to get the focus of each to be as even as possible all across the screen.

No, red and green are brighter colors than blue, and much easier to see. That's why they are the structure colors, while blue is more a fill color.


Another point I wanted to mention to Bob. Re-tweaked o-scan last night. Solid 4% all around now per AVIA. Since it was a fairly minor operation, the geo./conv. touchups were not nearly as time consuming. Actually got it all dialed up in about an hour and change. Time well spent--stuff looks great!

One question I meant to ask you regards Magic Focus. You have said in the past that you don't bother with MF initialization after your last pass of DCAM, right? Is this (in the case of Hits, anyway) becasue not re-initializing it negates it's use (if activated by accident)?

As a rule, I do the MF re-initialization after every DCAM pass. Mainly out of habit and following the service manual instructions. However, I don't ever activate MF (don't even use the manual user adj modes anymore) and actually haven't used the auto MF on this set since the first day it came off the CC truck. On my last Hit (43UWX10B), not initializing MF post-DCAM made it inactive (defaulted to a 9pt manual crosshair pattern when activated). Guessing it's the same situation on the F59. Is this why you don't do it yourself? Just curious.


Knew nothing of this de-activation.

I don't do it because it messes with the precision I have instilled in the picture just as much as, if nor more than, regular memorization passes do.

In all of these cases, what you ended up with after a superfine conv dial-in, is NOT what you wind up with after memorization OR initialization. It always gets changed - less with each pass, but always at LEAST just a bit, on Hitachis, whereas it doesn't on other brands.

On Tosh's I do the same thing, but the Tosh is far less offensive and thorough about messing with my final point settings.

I am simply cutting my losses of the precision I try to instill in every set I do.



Mr Bob

NOTHING in there is parallel to anything else, not even the green. ALL have lenses that are not parallel to either the CRT faces nor the mirror, nor the screen itself. ALL the lenses have to be aimed very carefully, and their scheimpflug characteristics taken into account, to get the focus of each to be as even as possible all across the screen.

No, red and green are brighter colors than blue, and much easier to see. That's why they are the structure colors, while blue is more a fill color.

Cool. Good to know. Kinda assumed that green being the center of a CRT array might have effects on it's placement on-screen, but your explanation gave me a personal "duh" moment ;) .


Knew nothing of this de-activation.

I don't do it because it messes with the precision I have instilled in the picture just as much as, if nor more than, regular memorization passes do.

In all of these cases, what you ended up with after a superfine conv dial-in, is not what you wind up with after memorization OR initialization.

I am simply cutting my losses of the precision I try to instill in every set I do.
Mr Bob

Yes, not re-initializng MF after a DCAM pass on Hits causes, as stated in the DIY guide, "the loss of Magic Focus". Haven't done it on the F59, but did have it happen on the 43UWX10B. Caused that set to go to a 9pt red/blue adjustable crosshairs display when pressing the MF button (guessing the locations of the 9 MF sensors--looks like the similar 9pt manual mode on the F59).

Did not realize that MF initialization had an effect on actual new convergence settings--just thought it was dealing with the MF sensors in relation to the new written settings. Thanks for the heads up.

Since MF is totally useless for precision convergence, guess I won't bother re-initializing it after DCAM work anymore. Could care less if it functions, since I never utilize it anyway.

Does the fact that a ROM write futzes with the superfine conv part have to do with the Hit tendancy to have to write settings several times to stick, or is this something that others (or all) CRT RPTVs have in common?

Cool. Good to know. Kinda assumed that green being the center of a CRT array might have effects on it's placement on-screen, but your explanation gave me a personal "duh" moment ;) .



Yes, not re-initializng MF after a DCAM pass on Hits causes, as stated in the DIY guide, "the loss of Magic Focus". Haven't done it on the F59, but did have it happen on the 43UWX10B. Caused that set to go to a 9pt red/blue adjustable crosshairs display when pressing the MF button (guessing the locations of the 9 MF sensors--looks like the similar 9pt manual mode on the F59).

Did not realize that MF initialization had an effect on actual new convergence settings--just thought it was dealing with the MF sensors in relation to the new written settings. Thanks for the heads up.

Since MF is totally useless for precision convergence, guess I won't bother re-initializing it after DCAM work anymore. Could care less if it functions, since I never utilize it anyway.

Unfortunately the Hit's don't have a master crosshair for user use. So the MF might still need to be employed by those not in on how to do a dcam.

But I echo your thoughts on this, and do the same in my cals.



Does the fact that a ROM write futzes with the superfine conv part have to do with the Hit tendancy to have to write settings several times to stick, or is this something that others (or all) CRT RPTVs have in common?

No other brand offends like the Hit, on this issue. I find a similar phenom on the Tosh's version of Hit's MF, but far far less than on the Hit.

Don't know of any other brand than those 2 that act like this in response to a mem command.


Mr Bob

No other brand offends like the Hit, on this issue. I find a similar phenom on the Tosh's version of Hit's MF, but far far less than on the Hit.

Don't know of any other brand than those 2 that act like this in response to a mem command.


Mr Bob

Guess when it comes to getting the "best" out of your TV, convergence-wise, they want you to work for it! ;)

Guess when it comes to getting the "best" out of your TV, convergence-wise, they want you to work for it! ;)

Any chance that when NOT re-init'ing the MF causes the 9 pt to show up instead, that the center crosshair turns into a global movement of the red and blue across the screen, rather than their pitiful 1 point movement in the 117 pt scenario?

If so, that would be one good reason to do whatever works, to rid outselves of MF. Having the center crosshair affect the whole screen, like it does on other brands, is something that is very helpful!


Mr Bob

Any chance that when NOT re-init'ing the MF causes the 9 pt to show up instead, that the center crosshair turns into a global movement of the red and blue across the screen, rather than their pitiful 1 point movement in the 117 pt scenario?

If so, that would be one good reason to do whatever works, to rid outselves of MF. Having the center crosshair affect the whole screen, like it does on other brands, is something that is very helpful!


Mr Bob

Since I haven't skipped MF re-initialization on the F59 yet, I do not know. The 9pts that showed up on the UWX10B were each adjustable--did not effect the whole screen from center adj. (if memory serves--back then, loss of MF freaked me out :eek: and I quickly went and figured out how to restore it).

May run aother DCAM pass tonight to see what happens when skipping the final MF step. Let you know ASAP what happens.

At least I'm not afraid to skip that now ;) .

I got the 9 point focus when I did too much overscan reduction. If memory serves me, it didn't affect the entire screen.

Gonna do a major overhaul on my television tomorrow. I'll post some pictures of my mods then.

Guess I won't be initializing MF either (Also guess I can tighten the overscan a little more).

One question for JWebb/Mr. Bob: So saving the DCAM 5 times in a row without exiting, this is reducing quality everytime? I was afraid to save to the DCAM and exit. Re-enter DCAM and save, exit. Re-enter DCAM and save and exit. Was afraid if I spent all that time, only saved once, and it didn't save... I'd have wasted all that effort and have to start over again.

I got the 9 point focus when I did too much overscan reduction. If memory serves me, it didn't affect the entire screen.

Gonna do a major overhaul on my television tomorrow. I'll post some pictures of my mods then.

Guess I won't be initializing MF either (Also guess I can tighten the overscan a little more).

One question for JWebb/Mr. Bob: So saving the DCAM 5 times in a row without exiting, this is reducing quality everytime? I was afraid to save to the DCAM and exit. Re-enter DCAM and save, exit. Re-enter DCAM and save and exit. Was afraid if I spent all that time, only saved once, and it didn't save... I'd have wasted all that effort and have to start over again.

I may be wrong, but I assume the "5 times" rule means write, exit, re-enter DCAM, repeat. That's what I have done. I'll wait for Bob to clarify. Although re-writing w/o exiting would be faster!

You got the 9pt MF display after too much o-scar reduction? How far in did you go? Was this due to the o-scan reduction passing the limits of the MF sensors or did you not re-initialize MF? Should have got an error code on screen if you passed the MF sensors when initializing MF.

Got mine @ 4% all around right now. Afraid less might end up showing those groovy white dots at the top of some 4:3 broadcast material.

Looking forward to your pics. Happy tweaking!

I've noticed that my HSYNC is rapidly switching from 47-48 and back. Is it supposed to? I can't adjust it up or down. I've never tried to adjust that setting.

I got the error because I went outside of the sensors when writing the Magic Focus. And because I was curious afterwards, I hit the Magic Focus to see exactly what the repercussions of that error would be.

MR BOB: I just took off the front panel (section that allows mechanical focus access) because I wanted to look at my mirror when the guns were firing. And I've spotted a HUGE thumbprint on the bottom of my mirror. Tried gently rubbing it out with a micro-fiber cloth, but it's still there. I don't know what this greaser was doing, but it's really cemented to the mirror. What's the best liquid to clean this off with? Thanks.

I've noticed that my HSYNC is rapidly switching from 47-48 and back. Is it supposed to? I can't adjust it up or down. I've never tried to adjust that setting.

That's normal don't sweat-it

Anyone use Caig DeoxIt or Stabilant 22 on the A/V hook ups (rear panel) on their F59 series to improve signal quality? Caig has on their website about how A/V enthusiasts love their product but I've yet to hear from anyone who's used it. Stabilant guarantees it won't cross-conduct but it is pretty expensive, though.

Has anyone adjusted focus on the F51? I cannot find that focus pack. I focused the lenses so thought I would carefully try it. Do I have to go in from the back?

Anyone use Caig DeoxIt or Stabilant 22 on the A/V hook ups (rear panel) on their F59 series to improve signal quality? Caig has on their website about how A/V enthusiasts love their product but I've yet to hear from anyone who's used it. Stabilant guarantees it won't cross-conduct but it is pretty expensive, though.

I use Caig Pro Gold cleaner on my connections about every 6 months or so. It's a good idea to reseat your connections every so often. I usually see an improvement after cleaning the connections.

Has anyone adjusted focus on the F51? I cannot find that focus pack. I focused the lenses so thought I would carefully try it. Do I have to go in from the back?

For the electronic focus pack you have to remove the large particle board cover that is on front of the tv, six screws to take out.

DO NOT TOUCH the knobs labeled "screen".

The focus pack will be mounted upside down so be careful.

1.) Did the mechanical focus. Used the Avia 50 IRE patterns. Covered the the lenses with small plates (example - green had blue and red covered). Green was significantly off (Thank you OP who posted how to do this from the front!!!!!). Red was slightly off. And blue was spot on.

2.) While viewing the mirror from the front, noticed I was getting too much scatter light hitting my lens hood. Took it out and watched television without it last night. Text on my HTPC was sharper. So this was impacting the clarity.

BUT it's a must have. Watching the Black Donally's last night was painful. During the dark scenes, was getting some incredibly noticeable halos/reflections happening. After watching for the last 2 months with my lens hood in place, PQ was significantly downgraded without the hood. Also, when I was doing focusing, I went into the back and looked at the lens. I could clearly see the grid reflecting from the screen back onto the lens. At least on my set, a lens hood is a requirement. The fine balance is gonna come in rejigging a lens hood that completely blocks the massive amount of reflection, but doesn't impede light scatter to the mirror. Gonna have to find a different mounting position to keep the angle, but get it further out.

3.) Sometimes think there's a green bias to things, so I made some lens strips for advanced striping on my greens. Did a detailed picture by picture step that I'll post tomorrow (assuming I figure out a new lens hood today).

To do a "Calculation" in DCAM mode, one presses the "GUIDE" button. Supposedly this calculates extra points (255??) between the 117 which have been adjusted.

I have always performed this before writing to ROM. When making adjustments to the 117pt grid, these inbetween/extra points are adjusted on screen... or at least I assume so because I see no discernable change when I press Calculation (GUIDE). It is recomended to perform this "interpolation" before doing a ROM write.

I'm wondering, is the calculation button required to make these extra points "stick" when writing to ROM? Does its use help? Just what IS going on when you DO or DONT perform a calculation?

I'm wondering also, is the Calculation the solution to the DCAM not sticking problem?

just throwing this out there

PS. I re-did my optical and electronic focus, and DCAMed it. I put a little more emphasis on the center. I lost some resolving power at the edges but the center 2/3rds look really sweet. I'm not sure if Im perfectly happy though... its a problem I have.

That's normal don't sweat-it


Darn, I was hoping that was the cause of the last problem, which is a bit of grainyness on some shots, usually a solid color background. I'm not talking about color uniformity, like a hockey field, that looks fine. It's just a bit of noise or static. My convergence is as good as I can get it and focus is good. SRTGA is down to 0, is there anything else I can try?

I did the basic thing of checking connections and cleaning them.

1.) Did the mechanical focus. Used the Avia 50 IRE patterns. Covered the the lenses with small plates (example - green had blue and red covered). Green was significantly off (Thank you OP who posted how to do this from the front!!!!!). Red was slightly off. And blue was spot on.

Next time, change RGBOUT (first item in TA1360 menu) from default of 00 to 01 for red, 02 for green, and 03 for blue. Makes commercials more interesting, too. :)
Michael

One question for JWebb/Mr. Bob: So saving the DCAM 5 times in a row without exiting, this is reducing quality everytime? I was afraid to save to the DCAM and exit. Re-enter DCAM and save, exit. Re-enter DCAM and save and exit. Was afraid if I spent all that time, only saved once, and it didn't save... I'd have wasted all that effort and have to start over again.

When I say 5 times, I mean 5 complete passes of corrections. You don't just do it by rote - "5 times in a row without exiting". You do 5 full sets of corrections before saving each one. By just doing it 5 ltimes in a row, you appear to be leaving out the all important step of DOING CORRECTIONS on each pass, before SAVING THOSE CORRECTIONS.

This is NOT reducing quality every time. It is saving more and more of your corrections, resulting in a tighter picture each time, IMPROVING quality each time.

You gotta do continuing corrections for the amount of net all over picture tightening you get, to improve each time.


Mr Bob

1.) Did the mechanical focus. Used the Avia 50 IRE patterns. Covered the the lenses with small plates (example - green had blue and red covered). Green was significantly off (Thank you OP who posted how to do this from the front!!!!!). Red was slightly off. And blue was spot on.

2.) While viewing the mirror from the front, noticed I was getting too much scatter light hitting my lens hood. Took it out and watched television without it last night. Text on my HTPC was sharper. So this was impacting the clarity.

BUT it's a must have. Watching the Black Donally's last night was painful. During the dark scenes, was getting some incredibly noticeable halos/reflections happening. After watching for the last 2 months with my lens hood in place, PQ was significantly downgraded without the hood. Also, when I was doing focusing, I went into the back and looked at the lens. I could clearly see the grid reflecting from the screen back onto the lens. At least on my set, a lens hood is a requirement. The fine balance is gonna come in rejigging a lens hood that completely blocks the massive amount of reflection, but doesn't impede light scatter to the mirror. Gonna have to find a different mounting position to keep the angle, but get it further out.

3.) Sometimes think there's a green bias to things, so I made some lens strips for advanced striping on my greens. Did a detailed picture by picture step that I'll post tomorrow (assuming I figure out a new lens hood today).

Not sure what you meant by scatter. Does this mean your hood was too tight, resulting in part of the light beams heading out from your CRTs hitting it, rather than hitting where they were supposed to be hitting, on the mirror?

Part of the beams getting choked off, rather than hitting their mark?

Mr Bob

To do a "Calculation" in DCAM mode, one presses the "GUIDE" button. Supposedly this calculates extra points (255??) between the 117 which have been adjusted.

I have always performed this before writing to ROM. When making adjustments to the 117pt grid, these inbetween/extra points are adjusted on screen... or at least I assume so because I see no discernable change when I press Calculation (GUIDE). It is recomended to perform this "interpolation" before doing a ROM write.

I'm wondering, is the calculation button required to make these extra points "stick" when writing to ROM? Does its use help? Just what IS going on when you DO or DONT perform a calculation?

I'm wondering also, is the Calculation the solution to the DCAM not sticking problem?

just throwing this out there

PS. I re-did my optical and electronic focus, and DCAMed it. I put a little more emphasis on the center. I lost some resolving power at the edges but the center 2/3rds look really sweet. I'm not sure if Im perfectly happy though... its a problem I have.

Now you have me wondering about the "calculation" procedure...

The Hitachi DCAM Guide (Lee Bailey posted it on the 1st page of this thread) states that calculation should be done while in 7x5 adj mode to straighten out any curved gridlines (although I thought the line straightening was just a byproduct of the 7x5 mode anyway).

Hoping Bob has an answer with some experience behind it.

Not sure what you meant by scatter. Does this mean your hood was too tight, resulting in part of the light beams heading out from your CRTs hitting it, rather than hitting where they were supposed to be hitting, on the mirror?

Part of the beams getting choked off, rather than hitting their mark?

Mr Bob

The 1st part. I had what I thought was ancillary light hitting the hood. This was light that was going in a direction opposite of the mirror (and which I deemed harmless), but was hitting the lens hood (which was then pretty visibly being redirected to the mirror... which I could see when looking from the front.

And I don't know if it was directly affecting everything, but the text in the bottom left hand screen seemed to be a bit sharper (the one spot on my set that I needed more geometry touching up). So whether it was affecting everything, or just a section that was a sore spot with me is up for question.

The 1st part. I had what I thought was ancillary light hitting the hood. This was light that was going in a direction opposite of the mirror (and which I deemed harmless), but was hitting the lens hood (which was then pretty visibly being redirected to the mirror... which I could see when looking from the front.

And I don't know if it was directly affecting everything, but the text in the bottom left hand screen seemed to be a bit sharper (the one spot on my set that I needed more geometry touching up). So whether it was affecting everything, or just a section that was a sore spot with me is up for question.


Sounds like both the first and second parts, and that your lettering was not getting all the light beams it is supposed to have. This could result in not all colors there being are at their highest light level possible, allowing for convergence to become a non-issue.

Or at least back-burner'd.


Mr Bob

I got the error because I went outside of the sensors when writing the Magic Focus. And because I was curious afterwards, I hit the Magic Focus to see exactly what the repercussions of that error would be.

MR BOB: I just took off the front panel (section that allows mechanical focus access) because I wanted to look at my mirror when the guns were firing. And I've spotted a HUGE thumbprint on the bottom of my mirror. Tried gently rubbing it out with a micro-fiber cloth, but it's still there. I don't know what this greaser was doing, but it's really cemented to the mirror. What's the best liquid to clean this off with? Thanks.

You'll prolly need a wet method. Sprayway is best, but Glass Plus is also excellent and ammonia-free, for first surface HD glass mirrors.

If you had this on a mylar mirror, chances are you'd have to let it go, and just live with it.


Mr Bob

You'll prolly need a wet method. Sprayway is best, but Glass Plus is also excellent and ammonia-free, for first surface HD glass mirrors.

If you had this on a mylar mirror, chances are you'd have to let it go, and just live with it.


Mr Bob

I never edited, but after poking my head around in there further, I don't think it's a real issue. It's on the bottom of the mirror and it's below the actual image being projected to the screen. It's seems like the bottom 6 inches (fuzzy memory) or so of the mirror isn't really projecting anything onto the actual screen... which is I'm sure why I didn't notice it. Cause it almost looks like some white caked on fingerprint.

Now you have me wondering about the "calculation" procedure...

The Hitachi DCAM Guide (Lee Bailey posted it on the 1st page of this thread) states that calculation should be done while in 7x5 adj mode to straighten out any curved gridlines (although I thought the line straightening was just a byproduct of the 7x5 mode anyway).

Hoping Bob has an answer with some experience behind it.

I've done the interpolation in both 7x5 and 13x9 and it doesn't seem to accomplish anything visible. I mean, the screen doesn't even blank momentarily like the service manual says it should. When I press GUIDE after making adjustments to the grid nothing visibly happens to indicate the process of interpolation has successfully executed. I have some mild s-curves too, and hitting GUIDE does nothing to correct them in 7x5 or 13x9 even though the remote is in DCAM mode and other DCAM functions via the remote work as expected.

I never edited, but after poking my head around in there further, I don't think it's a real issue. It's on the bottom of the mirror and it's below the actual image being projected to the screen. It's seems like the bottom 6 inches (fuzzy memory) or so of the mirror isn't really projecting anything onto the actual screen... which is I'm sure why I didn't notice it. Cause it almost looks like some white caked on fingerprint.


Then DWAI.


Mr Bob

I've done the interpolation in both 7x5 and 13x9 and it doesn't seem to accomplish anything visible. I mean, the screen doesn't even blank momentarily like the service manual says it should. When I press GUIDE after making adjustments to the grid nothing visibly happens to indicate the process of interpolation has successfully executed. I have some mild s-curves too, and hitting GUIDE does nothing to correct them in 7x5 or 13x9 even though the remote is in DCAM mode and other DCAM functions via the remote work as expected.


Yours might have another method.

Try putting your remote into VCR mode, hit cc, then back to TV mode for the rest of the work. I did this on one last night and it did indeed go black and interpolate.


Mr Bob

Yours might have another method.

Try putting your remote into VCR mode, hit cc, then back to TV mode for the rest of the work. I did this on one last night and it did indeed go black and interpolate.


Mr Bob

Consider the recent posts here regarding getting the F59 in the right "mode" to perform various DCAM functions. Seems the specific serv. manual instructions for resetting the remote to the "normal" and "DCAM" modes are not always just as they are printed. I know that, in my case, after entering DCAM, I need to do the button sequence of "hold TV, press 0, press 1, release TV (supposed to put remote in "normal" mode) to allow for line adjustment. Once done, I need to put the remote in "DCAM" mode (hold TV, press "MENU", press "INFO", release TV) to then perform the write to ROM function.

Bob, does the interpolation/calculation step need to be done when doing DCAM work? Never have done it and have seen little mentioned about it-other than the s.m. mentioning doing it after writing green info after a complete conv/geo redo (from a previously uncorrected state).

Next time, change RGBOUT (first item in TA1360 menu) from default of 00 to 01 for red, 02 for green, and 03 for blue. Makes commercials more interesting, too. :)
Michael

What does this do, turn off each gun in succession?

What does this do, turn off each gun in succession?
No, it turns ON each gun in succession.

Yours might have another method.

Try putting your remote into VCR mode, hit cc, then back to TV mode for the rest of the work. I did this on one last night and it did indeed go black and interpolate.


Mr Bob

Time to resurrect my former ConfusedNoob username: What is cc? Is it the guide button or maybe the mute button (mute = closed captions) :confused:

Consider the recent posts here regarding getting the F59 in the right "mode" to perform various DCAM functions. Seems the specific serv. manual instructions for resetting the remote to the "normal" and "DCAM" modes are not always just as they are printed. I know that, in my case, after entering DCAM, I need to do the button sequence of "hold TV, press 0, press 1, release TV (supposed to put remote in "normal" mode) to allow for line adjustment. Once done, I need to put the remote in "DCAM" mode (hold TV, press "MENU", press "INFO", release TV) to then perform the write to ROM function.

Bob, does the interpolation/calculation step need to be done when doing DCAM work? Never have done it and have seen little mentioned about it-other than the s.m. mentioning doing it after writing green info after a complete conv/geo redo (from a previously uncorrected state).

I have not tried the complicated method mentioned here in several places, but I could not get the unit to go into sm by my old method last night. And didn't need to.

All it needed was dcam, because I had just replaced the 2 ICs, and had a very obstinate green pincushion error, which was not co-operating. It was at its max, when trying to reform it to linear, since Hit does not supply any pinc or key or size regs, like other brands do.

When I did the interp, the screen went black and came back with new errors that were not there before - I really don't know what it does. But these errors were easy to eradicate, as long as you observed what they were doing to adjoining points - like if you went too far on one point, the 2 adjoining points would leap out of position. You'd put your original point back where it was and they would go back where they had been.

It was the Hitachi demon seed in action... In some corners I would go back and forth, and when I had gone too far, it would snap out, but then snap back in if I went a little farther. Or the extreme edges would pull the adjoining s/s ones in to them, but not enough.

I wound up reducing the overscan on the hor just because the green didn't have any room left to move, in the center, only at t/b, where correcting there made the whole line straight again, but an inch in from the edges. On both sides. On all edge side lines.

I found that the red and blue have vastly more room to move horizontally than the green, so I just brought them in to the green, rather than trying and trying and trying to remedy the green's very symmetrical pinc error and leave the red and blue alone, which woulda been a lot easier because the red and blue were already where they were supposed to be!


ARRRGGHH!

But it finally all came together and I gave them their set back after a single pass. SD was all they were watching, even tho it was an HDready, and they were sitting 10-12' back from their 50" 4x3. When people haven't honored what incredible potential their set has, I am NOT inclined to use all my hard-earned and very time-consuming tricks, tightening it up. They were used to it at SD, the conv was as tight as they had ever seen before anyway, and they were also bitching about every extra penny they were spending. So I left it alone.

I DID say, "You have no idea what you're missing, not having your set working with HD, here!"


Mr Bob

PS - after I had finished the IC replacement and noticed the very noticeable pincushion errors in the hor green, as in curved vertical lines, I shoulda done the MF, because they had done the MF with it in broken condition. Might have saved me an hour or 2. Just thought of that...

:(

No, it turns ON each gun in succession.

Ah yes, just tried that, much easier than putting tupper ware bowls on each lens in turn!

Sounds like a real "dream job" working on that set, Bob.

Good times....good times :D .

Tried the interpolation in DCAM last night, just to see what happens. On my F59, not much. Once I got a response (pressing GUIDE), the only thing that happened was that the DCAM position cursor would just move back to center position. No screen going black and no line freakouts (thankfully). Maybe this has to do with lines from all 3 guns being basically where they need to be--or at least lined up "properly". Who knows. but I'm not gonna sweat it.

Afterwards, re-checked convergence against last night's HD broadcast of LOST (checking against those palm tree fronds and other edge details seems to work best for my eyes). All looked great, so no adjs needed.

Time to resurrect my former ConfusedNoob username: What is cc? Is it the guide button or maybe the mute button (mute = closed captions) :confused:


"CC" is indeed Closed Captions. However the CLU-4361S remote that comes w/ the F59s does not have a "CC" button (some other Hit remotes do, I beleive--seem to recall the monster that came with my old 43UWX10B did). Hitachi has so many stinkin' variations of remotes, it's enough to confuse anyone--so no need to reinstate your old screen name!

For the calculation/interpolation prodecure, the F59 sm says to press "GUIDE" to perform it.

Only result I got from this was the cursor returning to center if it wasn't already there.

Thne again, I may have been doing soething wrong. But since my conv./geo has remained solid, I'm not gonna lose any sleep over this right now (unless Bob informs me that my conv. ICs are gonna explode by not doing the interpolation properly :eek: :D ).

Only result I got from this was the cursor returning to center if it wasn't already there.


If I remember right, that's all mine would do. If the cursor was centered already nothing would appear to happen but if the cursor was off center it would return to center after GUIDE was pressed. Maybe we need to be pressing VCR first then GUIDE? I don't like pulling up DCAM mode any more than when really necessary so probably won't try this for awhile.

Service appt was supposed to be today for Sears to come out and replace the DCU board to fix my drifting geometry problem. No go. Seems the DCU board was back ordered and only this a.m. did I recieve a call from Sears service ctr saying that the part was "in process at the manufacturer" as of today and expected to ship within 24 - 72 hrs. It was ordered two weeks ago.

This thread is an incredible source of info, much thanks to all the contributors! My question is simple...I've read several times now that the F59 series is essentially the same as the F710 series? I have the 65F710 and REALLY want to try some of the suggested basic SM tweaks - getting into the SM is easy enough, as well as navigating to the TA1360, once there however, the values are hidden...the cursor is present on the left and it can be scrolled down several tics, but the values to the right of them are not visible to adjust! WTF? Is there some trick to see them? They're THERE, just can't view 'em. Nearly every other option that can be edited, like say sub bright, etc, is plainly viewable, but not the ones under TA1360 (and I believe 2 others that follow it).

Thanks for any help...I simply want to try the COLORG 01 and SRTGA 00 tweaks.

-derek

This thread is an incredible source of info, much thanks to all the contributors! My question is simple...I've read several times now that the F59 series is essentially the same as the F710 series? I have the 65F710 and REALLY want to try some of the suggested basic SM tweaks - getting into the SM is easy enough, as well as navigating to the TA1360, once there however, the values are hidden...the cursor is present on the left and it can be scrolled down several tics, but the values to the right of them are not visible to adjust! WTF? Is there some trick to see them? They're THERE, just can't view 'em. Nearly every other option that can be edited, like say sub bright, etc, is plainly viewable, but not the ones under TA1360 (and I believe 2 others that follow it).

Thanks for any help...I simply want to try the COLORG 01 and SRTGA 00 tweaks.

-derek

Do you have the F710 service manual?

If not, the link Lee Bailey posted on the 1st page of this thread would be a good source. Likely it's available for download for a nominal fee.

That'd be my first suggestion.

btw....the pic of your "simple HD setup"? Phoebe Cates from FAST TIMES @ RIDGEMONT HIGH.......EXCELLENT!!!!! :D

Too bad posting rules won't allow a shot from a few moments after the one you have displayed!

Tried the interpolation in DCAM last night, just to see what happens. On my F59, not much. Once I got a response (pressing GUIDE), the only thing that happened was that the DCAM position cursor would just move back to center position. No screen going black and no line freakouts (thankfully). Maybe this has to do with lines from all 3 guns being basically where they need to be--or at least lined up "properly". Who knows. but I'm not gonna sweat it.



I'm guessing yours didn't need any interpolation because of your already intense attention to detail with it.

;)

Mr Bob

btw....the pic of your "simple HD setup"? Phoebe Cates from FAST TIMES @ RIDGEMONT HIGH.......EXCELLENT!!!!! :D

Too bad posting rules won't allow a shot from a few moments after the one you have displayed!


I remember that scene - ALL of it, including the diving board and what can't be shown here! Burned inexorably into the mind of this then very young and impressionable boy, here... Where is she now??? That body was stunning and needs to be shared!

Anyone who enjoys seeing the fantasies of fellow young and impressionable boys might want to check out the shower scene in Porky's, and the end sections of 40 days and 40 nights, when the build-up was starting to go critical!

Looked/felt pretty realistic to me, former Catholic that I am...


Mr Bob

Do you have the F710 service manual?

If not, the link Lee Bailey posted on the 1st page of this thread would be a good source. Likely it's available for download for a nominal fee.

That'd be my first suggestion.

btw....the pic of your "simple HD setup"? Phoebe Cates from FAST TIMES @ RIDGEMONT HIGH.......EXCELLENT!!!!! :D

Too bad posting rules won't allow a shot from a few moments after the one you have displayed!
OK, thanks - I only have the owners manual that came with the TV, will look into the fee on the SM and think about it because I'm kinda skeptical if the procedure to view those hidden values would even be mentioned in the SM, I mean it's odd that most are there now, meaning the method to even get into the SMenu is not in revealed in the OM, so you'd think they'd be all be tweakable once in there. Lee Bailey's info is great alright, it's just that one thing is holding me back, I also CANNOT get into my SM the mentioned way, for my set, its the menu, menu, 8, select method (on the remote), then everything is simingly the same.

Thanks, yep, that was the scene, she was something, and props to her for not going the *body double* route for the remainder of that scene, like too many of 'em do today, lol! :eek: :D


I remember that scene - ALL of it, including the diving board and what can't be shown here! Burned inexorably into the mind of this then very young and impressionable boy, here...
I think we all have that one burned! I remember reading an article somewhere about Blockbuster video having to replace that vhs tape often because it was mysteriously "wearing out" on that one scene, lmao! =)

I'm guessing yours didn't need any interpolation because of your already intense attention to detail with it.

;)

Mr Bob

An attention to detail that can cause minor headaches! :D

Figured interpolation was for correcting potential between-point errors. Yes? If no real errors exist, the interpolation won't effect anything, I'm guessing (hence no "screen goes black for 1 second", as the sm mentions)

Looked/felt pretty realistic to me, former Catholic that I am...

You too, eh....

I myself gave up Catholcism for Lent back in '84. ;)

And as far as I know, Bob, Ms Cates is still married to actor Kevin Kline. Last time I saw a photo of her, she was still gorgeous.

But we're really drifitng off-topic now, aren't we.

OK, thanks - I only have the owners manual that came with the TV, will look into the fee on the SM and think about it because I'm kinda skeptical if the procedure to view those hidden values would even be mentioned in the SM, I mean it's odd that most are there now, meaning the method to even get into the SMenu is not in revealed in the OM, so you'd think they'd be all be tweakable once in there. Lee Bailey's info is great alright, it's just that one thing is holding me back, I also CANNOT get into my SM the mentioned way, for my set, its the menu, menu, 8, select method (on the remote), then everything is simingly the same.

Since I've never dealt w/ a F710, I'd bet the SM for it will tell you how to "see" the values you wish to try altering. Wouldn't be a mention in the normal OM, since manufacturers don't want the avg user to be messing with service menu level stuff in the first place-much less even being able to access it.

Thanks, yep, that was the scene, she was something, and props to her for not going the *body double* route for the remainder of that scene, like too many of 'em do today, lol! :eek: :D

I think we all have that one burned! I remember reading an article somewhere about Blockbuster video having to replace that vhs tape often because it was mysteriously "wearing out" on that one scene, lmao! =)

Thank heaven for DVD, then!

Since I've never dealt w/ a F710, I'd bet the SM for it will tell you how to "see" the values you wish to try altering. Wouldn't be a mention in the normal OM, since manufacturers don't want the avg user to be messing with service menu level stuff in the first place-much less even being able to access it.

$16 - I guess I'll roll the dice and purchase/download it, hope that stuff is revealed though, I don't see myself fooling with too many things in there though!

thanks again for all the input. =)

An attention to detail that can cause minor headaches! :D

Figured interpolation was for correcting potential between-point errors. Yes? If no real errors exist, the interpolation won't effect anything, I'm guessing (hence no "screen goes black for 1 second", as the sm mentions)



Sounds right to me, seeing as how I have no idea what it does, it doesn't say...



You too, eh....

I myself gave up Catholcism for Lent back in '84. ;)

And as far as I know, Bob, Ms Cates is still married to actor Kevin Kline. Last time I saw a photo of her, she was still gorgeous.

But we're really drifitng off-topic now, aren't we.


Yeah, so??? All work and no play...

With Kevin Kline, eh? Who woulda thought? Might check out IMDB, the Internet Movie Data Base...

Wasn't she also in Blue Lagoon II? I seem to remember a cave, with the protagonist showering in a sunbeam or something...

:)

Mr Bob

An attention to detail that can cause minor headaches! :D

Figured interpolation was for correcting potential between-point errors. Yes? If no real errors exist, the interpolation won't effect anything, I'm guessing (hence no "screen goes black for 1 second", as the sm mentions)



You too, eh....

I myself gave up Catholcism for Lent back in '84. ;)

And as far as I know, Bob, Ms Cates is still married to actor Kevin Kline. Last time I saw a photo of her, she was still gorgeous.

But we're really drifitng off-topic now, aren't we.

One of my good friends is a teacher in the school her son attends. Who says teaching doesn't pay well?

This thread is an incredible source of info, much thanks to all the contributors! My question is simple...I've read several times now that the F59 series is essentially the same as the F710 series? I have the 65F710 and REALLY want to try some of the suggested basic SM tweaks - getting into the SM is easy enough, as well as navigating to the TA1360, once there however, the values are hidden...the cursor is present on the left and it can be scrolled down several tics, but the values to the right of them are not visible to adjust! WTF? Is there some trick to see them? They're THERE, just can't view 'em. Nearly every other option that can be edited, like say sub bright, etc, is plainly viewable, but not the ones under TA1360 (and I believe 2 others that follow it).

Thanks for any help...I simply want to try the COLORG 01 and SRTGA 00 tweaks.

-derek

When you go into the Service Menu look for ISF Mode. You should be able to tweak any value from there. BTW how are you accessing the Service Menu?

Thanks, I'll look and try that when I get home....hope you're right, I'm REALLY happy with my picture, just curious about the crushing white tweak in particular...

The ONLY way that has worked for me is by turning the set on, then with the remote, hit: menu, menu, 8, select....sorta fighting/video game move style, lol. It pops right up, none of the other posted methods work on this series (at least from everything I read on darn near all of these threads - many guys with the F710 series unable to get in with the f59 way).

Thanks, I'll look and try that when I get home....hope you're right, I'm REALLY happy with my picture, just curious about the crushing white tweak in particular...

The ONLY way that has worked for me is by turning the set on, then with the remote, hit: menu, menu, 8, select....sorta fighting/video game move style, lol. It pops right up, none of the other posted methods work on this series (at least from everything I read on darn near all of these threads - many guys with the F710 series unable to get in with the f59 way).

Try powering on the TV(manually pushing the Power Button) & pushing in the MENU button(also manually from the TV) @ the same time. This is how I get into my Service Menu. I own a F510

No luck on that BFJ, thanks all the same though - I remember trying a bazillion different combinations of holding the menu button on the TV while powering on, etc, etc, before I found the menu, menu, 8 select thing - at least that gets me to the following, but as you can see, no ISF mode and again, on the TA1360 page, hidden values:

PRT ADJUST MODE

SERVICE
SUB BRIGHT
WHITE BAL HIGH
WHITE BAL MED
WHITE BAL STD
WHITE BAL B/W
H POSITION 41
V POSITION 461
FACT RESET

(After scrolling to the bottom, a second page comes up, looks like this)

PRT ADJUST MODE

TV GUIDE
IR BLAST
VBI SLICER M
VBI SLICER S
V CHIP
CLOCK TEST 12:00:00
MAINTENANCE
MEMORY INIT
OSD SELECT B

(and then a final page that looks like this)

PRT ADJUST MODE

SEINE
TA1360
TC90103
AD9880
CXA2211
Sil9021 (HDMI)

Sounds like the service manual is gonna be a good thing for you in this case.

Have you tried this......when in the TA1360 menu, when highlighting a particular parmeter, if you press SELECT on the remote does the hidden value appear?

Just a thought.

Yep, actually just tried that before I made that last post, no dice though. I'll hold off on the service manual buy for a few days, just in case somebody surfaces whos been there....even googling for any of the f710 series draws a blank on this, argh! thanks.

No luck on that BFJ, thanks all the same though - I remember trying a bazillion different combinations of holding the menu button on the TV while powering on, etc, etc, before I found the menu, menu, 8 select thing - at least that gets me to the following, but as you can see, no ISF mode and again, on the TA1360 page, hidden values:

PRT ADJUST MODE

SERVICE
SUB BRIGHT
WHITE BAL HIGH
WHITE BAL MED
WHITE BAL STD
WHITE BAL B/W
H POSITION 41
V POSITION 461
FACT RESET

(After scrolling to the bottom, a second page comes up, looks like this)

PRT ADJUST MODE

TV GUIDE
IR BLAST
VBI SLICER M
VBI SLICER S
V CHIP
CLOCK TEST 12:00:00
MAINTENANCE
MEMORY INIT
OSD SELECT B

(and then a final page that looks like this)

PRT ADJUST MODE

SEINE
TA1360
TC90103
AD9880
CXA2211
Sil9021 (HDMI)

I like your "simple" hd setup. Similiar to mine. Low visibility of components leads to high WAF. And I like it better that way too.

http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u299/mabesnyc/PICT0048.jpg

The photo is before any service menu adjustments, with a crappy camera (that chair is actually beige).

Thanks mabrym, that looks excellent as well...anyone that squeezes in guitars with HT shots is alright in my book! :)

Only reason I call mine "simple" is because there are so many folks here with REALLY pricey setups! I like to think a simple, practical setup can be just as effective though, ya know!

About the lighting for evening viewing, I do have a 6500k light behind mine for that true theater experience, I just couldn't get a good shot of the setup with the other lights off and only the backlight on, but I'm sure you guys all know how nice that can look. =)

Thanks mabrym, that looks excellent as well! Only reason I call mine simple is because there are so many folks here with REALLY pricey setups! I like to think a simple, practical setup can be just as effective, ya know! about the lighting for evening viewing, I have a 6500lk light behind mine for that true theater experience, I just couldn't get a good shot of the setup with the other lights off and only the backlight, but I'm sure you guys all know how nice that can look. =)

Try pushing TV Button & Menu Button (from the front panel) @ the same time. I made a mistake by saying Input.

Try pushing TV Button & Menu Button (from the front panel) @ the same time. I made a mistake by saying Input.
Yeah, tried that one many times as well, no luck! Its no biggie, sooner or later...

Yeah, tried that one many times as well, no luck!

That's weird... BTW Schils, when you get to TA1360 are you hitting the arrow button on the right hand side of the remote. If your remote is like mine you should have 4 arrow buttons & the SELECT button in the middle of them.

When you get to TA1360 push the arrow on the right to the right. EX: >

Nothing happens when I push to the right....here's what it looks like (just fired up the TV - fuzzy text)...when I get to the TA1360 line, I hit select (pushing to the right also advances), then it takes me to that sub menu, where you can see in the below picture, the cursor is present - it can then be scrolled down approx 8 slots, but hitting select or pushing right has no effect and I'd be crazy to start doing that blindly anyway! :eek:

TA1360
http://www.sounds-of-schils.com/music/TA1360.jpg

TA1360 sub page
http://www.sounds-of-schils.com/music/Hidden.jpg

EDIT: BTW, I could be wrong here, it could be as simple as what it seems...it does say NO. Data (or is that short for #), but why then the 8 slots beneath?! :confused:

Yeah, tried that one many times as well, no luck! Its no biggie, sooner or later...


Turn set off, wait NO MORE THAN 3 SECONDS, and turn it back on again while holding Menu in. All on front panel.

If this is the correct series that should do it.


Mr Bob

Turn set off, wait NO MORE THAN 3 SECONDS, and turn it back on again while holding Menu in. All on front panel.

If this is the correct series that should do it.


Mr Bob

Mr. Bob as always to the rescue. Schils this actually is the proper way to get into the SM. If holding MENU in , then turning the TV on manually doesn't work. Hols INPUT down, then manually turn the TV on. Remember Schils this is done from the front panel of the TV..

*Cues Mission Impossible Music*

Thanks a ton guys, (just tried bunch of time, no luck)....niether way has worked yet, holding Menu in (on the TV, not the remote) while pressing the TV's power button (again, on the TV), as well as the same thing with the Input button - nothing. It is indeed a 65F710a set, says it on the back! I'll keep trying....

EDIT: I guess I will need to buy the service manual...I think I am in the actual SM when I'm hitting the menu+menu+8+select sequence....after hitting select while on TA1360, which brings up that sub menu pictured above, I got brave this time and scrolled down to the first line and instead of hitting select, I hit '1' on the remote and it popped right up as pictured here:

http://www.sounds-of-schils.com/music/Hidden1.jpg

I hit exit and tried this again on different slots and with different numbers, hitting exit instead of select everytime...without knowing where to go next, I'm stuck...

:::theme from Rocky starts up:::

Does anyone know if Hitachi is going to eventually put out a fix for the image shift issue? I understand it's the HDMI, but so was the problem that was fixed. I get the shift every five minutes or so and it's downright annoying me to the point where I'm about to go back to component. Also, when changing channels from one HD to another, the screen sometimes will go gray or green.

Thanks

Focus re-update...


OK I re-did everything again yesterday. This time I used the fine-resolution matrix in Displaymate. Output the matrix in green to focus the green, then red for the red and then Blue. I tried to optimise focus about half the way out, and then tweaked it for the most focus accross most of the screen. I was able to resolve alternating horizontal lines on most of the screen for green and red. I used the standard resolution matrix (2/3rds res) for blue.

After two passes in DCAM mode using the fine geometric linearity screen of Displaymate, using yellow for RG convergence and cyan for BG convergence I finally got my set to look sharp and converged everywhere.

I gotta say, Displaymate is a very useful little proggy, maybe a little outdated and expensive but it sure helped me.

Now that I'm finally happy, you mightn't see much of me around here anymore!!

peace-out

Does anyone know if Hitachi is going to eventually put out a fix for the image shift issue? I understand it's the HDMI, but so was the problem that was fixed. I get the shift every five minutes or so and it's downright annoying me to the point where I'm about to go back to component. Also, when changing channels from one HD to another, the screen sometimes will go gray or green.

Thanks


I posed the shift isue question via PM to HDMI_Org, the moderator (I believe) of the dedicated HDMI board here @ AVS. Described the situation (and mentioned that some have it more than others). Here's part of his response:

Interesting- I would guess this must be unique to your F59's because you have a CRT display drive, which requires a little bit of conversion from HDMI's digital video timings into an analog signal.

Told me he'd ask around to others in the know, HDMI-wise, about the shift problem.

Obviously you're using a sat/cable box via HDMI. Which one? I seem to recall prior to the first Hitachi HDMI fix that some had experienced more trouble from DishNetwork boxes than anything else. Shifting every 5 seconds is a real problem and could have as much to do with what's connected to your F59 as the F59 itself.

As I've mentioned here before, I also get image shift via HDMI w/ a Sony NS75H DVD player, but it's very rare. If it happens at all while watching a DVD, it only happens once and corrects itself in about 1-2 seconds. Never had it happen twice on a DVD and never at the same place at the same time. Have watched more discs where it never happens than when it does. I had this issue before the original fix (the Sony worked "freakout-free" prior to the software fix on my set, as well).

If you have not done so already, contact Hitachi. If you have, bug 'em again! If enough people barrrage them with emails and calls to their service dept., the shift issue could be taken care of (if it's possible). May even mention to them about the timing issue btwn the dig/analog conversion. In fact, I may fire off an email today. The "squeaky wheel" technique worked before.

This "problem" hasn't really bothered me. Then again, my F59 had problem-free HDMI performance OOB. Still did not stop me from harrassing HItachi to do something about it. We F59'ers gotta stick together. :)

I did find the focus pack and made some adjustments, twice. The first time it was off, white scrolling text had a noticeable blur. Went in again the next day and the bit of blurriness on scrolling white text is now gone and the picture is sharper. But I think I may need to adjust again, I went into DCAM and noticed that the blue lines were noticeably fatter than they had been before, I think they are a bit more...blue as well. More vivid, although it's hard to remember exactly what it looked like before. Then I noticed that on the right side of the screen the blue is well hidden behind the white, but on the left, while it's centered behind the white, it peeks out on the edges a bit more. It's as if the focus pak adjustment raised the level of blue.

I don't notice this on screen much, focus seems balanced and text is sharp as is the picture, it But I wonder if a bit more adjustment is needed. I don't have the AVIA disk with color patterns, is there anything on DVE I can use? If so, should I adjust pocus pak first and then the lenses.

THis picture, taken with a crappy camera, is not fully accurate, the actual image is a lot sharper. Flesh tones on the right side seem natural, but on the left it looks a little off.

http://s171.photobucket.com/albums/u299/mabesnyc/?action=view&current=PICT0078.jpg

Just a HDMI shift update.....

Just fired off this email to Hitachi service:

I picked the first TV type from the list since mine isn't listed :)

I have a 51F59A CRT RPTV. Have had it since Oct '06 and love it. Did recently have the blue CRT replaced under warranty due to a manufacturing defect (all is well now, BTW).

My question concerns issues with the use of HDMI gear. I know that back in January, Hitachi released a service bulletin that gave service centers the service menu codes to enter to address the picture issues many were having when connecting HDMI gear to F59 series TVS. That "fix" has been implemented on mine and everything is fine. However, myself and many users that I have spoke with online still experience what is best referred to as "image shift"--a brief horizontal shift in the entire picture (usually to the left) that corrects itself within a couple of seconds. For me, this happens very infrequently when using a Sony DVP-NS75H DVD player via HDMI. (maybe once every 5-6 discs played).I have spoke to others--and recommended they contact you as well--who experience this (usually with cable/satellite boxes via HDMI) much more often. One F59 owner I have spoke with has this shift happen every few seconds and is obviously frustrated.

I spoke with the moderator of the HDMI discussion board @ the AVS Forum recently about this problem. He seemed to think that it may be a timing issue occuring during the conversion of the digital HDMI video signal over to the analog that a CRT display requires. If this (or something else) is the case, I know there are many F59 series owners that would appreciate the Hitachi engineering dept. looking into this problem. Hitachi took care of the previous HDMI issues the F59s were having. Let's hope you can do the same for this.

Thank you, and I look forward to a response.

Let you all know what I hear back ASAP.

I've been busy/distracted, so I'm just gonna post about the lens striping only for the moment.

1.) http://www.flickr.com/photos/86289222@N00/415725037/

2.) http://www.flickr.com/photos/86289222@N00/415725038/

3.) http://www.flickr.com/photos/86289222@N00/415725041/

4.) http://www.flickr.com/photos/86289222@N00/415725042/

5.) http://www.flickr.com/photos/86289222@N00/415725044/

Descriptions are below each photo.

It's cheap, easy, and no warranty voiding mess.

EDIT:

Now that I'm finally happy, you mightn't see much of me around here anymore!!

peace-out

Yep. Between the mechanical focus, additional overscan, and the really sharp DCAM that I've done the last couple days... I'm hoping I'm just about done with this set. Watching Lost yesterday, I was completely stunned at the sharpness I was getting. Assuming Murphy's Law doesn't bite me, I think I'm there.

Then I noticed that on the right side of the screen the blue is well hidden behind the white, but on the left, while it's centered behind the white, it peeks out on the edges a bit more.

That may be normal, the differnece in blue blooming left side of screen vs. right side because that's how mine does. I have a quite a bit of blue blooming out from behind the white vertical convergence grid lines to the left of center, gets worse the farther left you go, but to the right it is not that way. Plus, its only visible in the verticle grid lines not horizontal. A long time ago I did an electronic focus but the blue was this way before the focus, that is why I think it may be somewhat normal and a break-in factor. I say break-in because it didn't bloom the blue on the left vertical grid lines so much when the set was new, but it does seem that it took on the blooming after a few months of use.

P.S. is your tv displaying HD content in that photo or SD?

That may be normal, the differnece in blue blooming left side of screen vs. right side because that's how mine does. I have a quite a bit of blue blooming out from behind the white vertical convergence grid lines to the left of center, gets worse the farther left you go, but to the right it is not that way. Plus, its only visible in the verticle grid lines not horizontal. A long time ago I did an electronic focus but the blue was this way before the focus, that is why I think it may be somewhat normal and a break-in factor. I say break-in because it didn't bloom the blue on the left vertical grid lines so much when the set was new, but it does seem that it took on the blooming after a few months of use.

P.S. is your tv displaying HD content in that photo or SD?


It's HD but looking at the picture again it's only an approximation of the actual picture on the TV. It's a $150 camera/camcorder. I'll try to get a better pic tonight, maybe I can rig a tripod of some kind.

I think you're right the blooming blue is not a problem, if it were would I not see some ringing around the letters on the left? Or bad focus on that side?

Anyway I'm not going to try any more focusing until I get a proper pattern. Letters are now distinctly clearer than they were before and even from a couple of inches from the screen I can't see any color fringes on the edges of the letters.

I'll try DCAM again, let me make sure I'm doing it right. I'm using the INHD convergence pattern, and I press menu on the remote until I see, I think this is the right term, a crosshatch (or is the crosshatch the pattern?). It's a cross with 4 bars on each side. That lines up with the INHD pattern and I adjust convergence there.

I've read that it can take 5 passes to get DCAm to stick. Is this true every time you switch to a different pattern? Initially I was using the one that comes up when you first go into DCAM, the one with the flashing dotted lines over the set's grid.

A fix for blooming/haloing??

http://www.plexhometheater.com/articles/lensflareonrearprojectiontvs.html

Anyone have any experience with this??

Painting lens assemblies??

Scary. :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

It's HD but looking at the picture again it's only an approximation of the actual picture on the TV. It's a $150 camera/camcorder*. I'll try to get a better pic tonight, maybe I can rig a tripod of some kind.

I think you're right the blooming blue is not a problem, if it were would I not see some ringing around the letters on the left? Or bad focus on that side?

Anyway I'm not going to try any more focusing until I get a proper pattern. Letters are now distinctly clearer than they were before and even from a couple of inches from the screen I can't see any color fringes on the edges of the letters.

I'll try DCAM again, let me make sure I'm doing it right. I'm using the INHD convergence pattern, and I press menu on the remote until I see, I think this is the right term, a crosshatch (or is the crosshatch the pattern?). It's a cross with 4 bars on each side. That lines up with the INHD pattern and I adjust convergence there.

I've read that it can take 5 passes to get DCAm to stick. Is this true every time you switch to a different pattern? Initially I was using the one that comes up when you first go into DCAM, the one with the flashing dotted lines over the set's grid.

A little blue blooming on a DCAM or other crosshatch grid shouldn't be a problem on actual video images. Blue acts more as a "filler" color (red/green are the structual colors), so a little fuzz on the blue is fine from a normal viewing distance.

The DCAM mode you mention is what I used most often during the last round of DCAM adj. I always called it the "crosshair"--"crossHATCH" would refer to the grid pattern. The crosshair (4 bars of selected color surrounding a white cross) and it's next version (press MENU again)--the color bars w/o the white cross--are really helpful when doing conv. tweaks with external video sources.

I have found that Mr Bob's assertion about the Hit "write to ROM" issue seems to hold up in my experience. Not that a single ROM write destroys all the adjustments you just made, but that after wrting settings and going back and looking at your conv reference (whatever it may be) there are some minor errors that have popped up that need re-doing. Usually after a few passes, everything seems to stick.

This refers to a general "write to ROM", not the use of different internal DCAM modes (grids, crosshairs) to do conv adjustment, however (I think).

A little blue blooming on a DCAM or other crosshatch grid shouldn't be a problem on actual video images. Blue acts more as a "filler" color (red/green are the structual colors), so a little fuzz on the blue is fine from a normal viewing distance.

The DCAM mode you mention is what I used most often during the last round of DCAM adj. I always called it the "crosshair"--"crossHATCH" would refer to the grid pattern. The crosshair (4 bars of selected color surrounding a white cross) and it's next version (press MENU again)--the color bars w/o the white cross--are really helpful when doing conv. tweaks with external video sources.

I have found that Mr Bob's assertion about the Hit "write to ROM" issue seems to hold up in my experience. Not that a single ROM write destroys all the adjustments you just made, but that after wrting settings and going back and looking at your conv reference (whatever it may be) there are some minor errors that have popped up that need re-doing. Usually after a few passes, everything seems to stick.

This refers to a general "write to ROM", not the use of different internal DCAM modes (grids, crosshairs) to do conv adjustment, however (I think).

I would think, or should I say I would guess, that if you are using a different pattern then you're adjustments are different and it would take several passes for the new adjustments to stick.

Moot point, knowing me I'm probably going to do DCAM once a day for a few more days anyway. I haven't tried using the cross without the bars - I mean the bars without the cross - but will do so, less stuff on screen so I can maybe focus on the lines better. Ya know, get it 1/100th of an inch tighter.

I keep telling myself that soon I'm going to just enjoy the set.

I would think, or should I say I would guess, that if you are using a different pattern then you're adjustments are different and it would take several passes for the new adjustments to stick.

Moot point, knowing me I'm probably going to do DCAM once a day for a few more days anyway. I haven't tried using the cross without the bars - I mean the bars without the cross - but will do so, less stuff on screen so I can maybe focus on the lines better. Ya know, get it 1/100th of an inch tighter.

I keep telling myself that soon I'm going to just enjoy the set.


:D :D :D

I hear ya!

Actually, I haven't done any real DCAM stuff since I last did the overscan adjustments. Couple of minor touchups, but nothing in the last week or so. And prior to that, only a few times before since I got the set late last year-most major job was when I got the blue CRT replaced and the set had been transpoted to/from the repair shop.

Did find recently (thanks to Bob) that for me, the internal DCAM grid being lined up perfectly did not necessarily equal perfect conv on "real" video images. Most DCAM lines on my set ARE tight, but there are a few spots that are slightly "off'" on the DCAM grid (the leftmost vertical blue line is actually pretty "off"). These same areas, however, appear properly converged when viewing either the AVIA crossatch patterns or "real" HD video. This is here the "crosshair" modes are best--for lining things up against stuff you will actually be watching.

Try doing this with "regular" HD video, the INHD stuff you have (I have that, too) and--recent addition to the reference list--2.35:1 ratio movies (either on DVD or on HD channels, if available to you). The "black bars" on those help to deliniate little red/blue "errors" easily along the edges of them. I notice slight conv errors along those (and black 4:3 pillarbox bars) almost immediately.

Thank god I haven't had to worry about overscan. It's always been about 4.5 and I'm NOT going to try and get it better, it's fine for me. Haven't tried to crosshair with an actual picture up there, wouldn't know exactly how to adjust it. I might think I'm improving the picture, then it cuts to another shot and everyone has green hair!

Can someone help me get me set into DCAM mode. I can't for the life of me find the blue button inside the set. I looked at the instructions at the beginning of the thread and it's not clear which series of commands put the remote in DCAM mode and which puts the set in DCAM mode. Anyway I did try a couple of different command series that I saw there and nothing seemed to work. How do I get started?

Thanks