There is. Both the Moome and the Box series, usable with the HDFury for transoding HDMI to component, for units with component only. Available at the Curt Palme site.

I just learned that I am mentioned there by James A, for whom I just did his Mit 55905 last week, around year 2000 HDready model. He swears by it, says his set now "outperforms some of the newest stuff out there"... Check the Curt Palme site -

www.curtpalme.com

and this in particular -

http://www.curtpalme.com/Box1020.shtm


Mr Bob

I just have a problem with adding two extra boxes into the signal path, especially when only one of those boxes was designed for the task I want to accomplish. I am a HUGE follower of the KISS philisophy. I am an audiophle who belioeves in non oversampling dacs, passive preamps, vinyl, time and phase correct speakers, and purist two mic direct to disc recordings. So I have an issue with extra stuff.

The mirror is most likely a front surface/first surface mirror, and as such the aluminizing should not be exposed to ammonia. As such Windex with Ammonia D is OK for the lenses, but out for the mirror.

Unless this is one of the few Hits that use a glass mirror rather than the industry standard HDready front surface mirror.


Mr Bob

The 51F59s use a glass mirror. Windex would be OK for that one, but I still used Sprayway on mine. In the F59 series, I believe only the 65" uses a first surface mirror, but don't hold me to that.

I believe the chart from the F59 service manual that lists such data is somewhere on this very thread.

I just have a problem with adding two extra boxes into the signal path, especially when only one of those boxes was designed for the task I want to accomplish. I am a HUGE follower of the KISS philisophy. I am an audiophle who belioeves in non oversampling dacs, passive preamps, vinyl, time and phase correct speakers, and purist two mic direct to disc recordings. So I have an issue with extra stuff.

The Moome is what Cliff uses in his all-1080p signal chain, for his G90 doublestack, the one he sits his width from re. viewing distance, the one supplying some of the most incredible shots over at the Screenshot War thread. If it's good enough for the kind of screenshots you see from his setup over there, it certainly doesn't degrade the signal enough to be anywhere near visible on the screen.

I've seen it in person, and NOTHING in that signal chain is being degraded! Your shots there are stellar as well, you won't be disappointed.


;)

Mr Bob

The Moome is what Cliff uses in his all-1080p signal chain, for his G90 doublestack, the one he sits his width from re. viewing distance, the one supplying some of the most incredible shots over at the Screenshot War thread. If it's good enough for the kind of screenshots you see from his setup over there, it certainly doesn't degrade the signal enough to be anywhere near visible on the screen.

I've seen it in person, and NOTHING in that signal chain is being degraded! Your shots there are stellar as well, you won't be disappointed.


;)

Mr Bob

When I get a FP, I'm defnintely getting a Moome or comparable box. But I'll pretty much have to and so it's an easier pill to swallow. Right now, I already have what the Moome box does, minus the gamma boost. There's a new company(or at least new to me) that does gamma boosts at a reasonable price that I saw at Curt's site. I PM'd the owner and asked him about such a device and he said he was looking into it. Not immediate future looking into it, but still lookin into it. For us RPCRT guys, I think there's enough of us to justify such a product. I love my CRT blacks, but if I could get some recovered shadow detail without having to raise my black level at all, it would be great. That black level really helps with dimensionality and I've 3D out the wazoo. But I would love to get that IRE info back

Your shots there are stellar as well, you won't be disappointed.


;)

Mr Bob

And thanks a million, I need to get a better camera and take some more shots and post them.

I took some shots of Csino Royal and Aeon Flux from HD DVR (directv) last night, but they are not even close to what I'm seeing. I guess I'll post them anyway shortly.

I am using a tripod, timer and the camera is in manual at f4.8 and aperutre +.3, I think. The distance is around 12 feet (behind the main seating area, my seating area) and zoomed in just a bit to frame the tv.

I'll post those and I'll make other experiments.

Now I'm gone from video tweaking to camera tweaking... and the family asking "what in the world are you doing" funny

Now I'm gone from video tweaking to camera tweaking... and the family asking "what in the world are you doing" funny

If your camera has different "white balance" settings, try them all. You'd think there'd be one for "CRT," but there isn't.:)
I used to use PhotoShop's Auto-Color filter, but, for some reason, since I adjusted my white balance on the set, I don't need it as much on the pictures.
And no, it won't be as good as what you're seeing. Even the projector guys can't get photos that accurate, though they have it easier than we do.
Good luck.

And thanks a million, I need to get a better camera and take some more shots and post them.

So those exquisite shots you have over at the Screenshot War thread are from your RP, not a FP???


Mr Bob

You know what I would kill for about now? A damn low level gamma boost! Why is there no hdmi to hdmi gamma boosting products out there?

I know you don't like extra processing "stuff," but you may want to see if you like changing BLACK-AUTO and BLACK-DETECTION from 00 to 01 and BLACK-AREA from 01 to 00. I didn't, but it was a useful experiment, anyway.

You have, of course, tried changing STATG1 (Static Gamma Black Gain)? Mine's back to 00 (as are APRTR and SRTGA).

Or just break down and spend the big bucks.:)

So those exquisite shots you have over at the Screenshot War thread are from your RP, not a FP???


Mr Bob

Yep, from my Hitachi set, and that was when my set was looking relatively crappy compared to how it looks now. Oh how I yearn to get some good pics of my set now! When can we get some more shots from your set Bob? I'd love to see some Fifth Element or some Lord of the Rings or some of the standard stuff we all may have to compare.

I know you don't like extra processing "stuff," but you may want to see if you like changing BLACK-AUTO and BLACK-DETECTION from 00 to 01 and BLACK-AREA from 01 to 00. I didn't, but it was a useful experiment, anyway.

You have, of course, tried changing STATG1 (Static Gamma Black Gain)? Mine's back to 00 (as are APRTR and SRTGA).

Or just break down and spend the big bucks.:)

I had Black Auto and Black Detection moved from 00 before, and then I turned them all of and calibrated from there and I liked the picture better. And those settings don't do exactly what I need done. I just want the right above black lit up a little more, without touching everything else.

My STATG1 is at 2 and my SRTGA and APRTR are at 00 as well. Much cleaner picture I think

Got a PS3 a couple of weeks ago for BR. Here's a screen of the theme I'm using

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b329/bigfnjoe96/IMG_4378.jpg

i finally checked your picture versus mine, all that i can see different is the reflection on the windsheild of your set is more pronounced with a little more blue than mine and my overscan is a bit more than yours. the o'scan on mine cuts the image off at just to the outside of the rear tire.

Yep, from my Hitachi set, and that was when my set was looking relatively crappy compared to how it looks now. Oh how I yearn to get some good pics of my set now! When can we get some more shots from your set Bob? I'd love to see some Fifth Element or some Lord of the Rings or some of the standard stuff we all may have to compare.

As time allows, my friend. As you well know, taking screenshots takes time! This will be the 3rd Saturday in a row that I have worked here at home, plus the 2 Saturdays - and Sundays! - I worked thru, on the MN/Chicago tour. I have not had 2 days in a row off in over a month!

But you know as well as I do, when a particular shot looks SO good on my set that I will just have to capture it, I will be powerless to resist...

:D


Mr Bob

A colleague of mine is giving me a raft of **** over at the SPot, saying that screenshots are BS and that I should be able to take them lickety split, with little or no planning, experimentation, nor time. As if taking screenshots were a very simple thing, and that the time and care I have taken in getting ones I consider good enough to be worthy of posting, mean nothing.

He also says that CRT RPTV is not a worthwhile medium anymore, and that I am in severe denial about several things, among them trying to save it and make it last as long as I - as we all - can. I have mentioned these threads where screenshots are highly respected over here, and others where CRT RPTV tech is also highly respected. He says the only CRT medium worth having is front projection, which at least is some form of agreement between us anyway, I guess, tho I disagree that it is the only CRT medium worth caring about.

When I mentioned the huge numbers of views of such threads over here, he says that I am quoting numbers of views that make them impossible to read.

I would like some help in answering him. Here's the thread -


http://www.***************.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/141139/


Mr Bob
__________________

Mr. Bob,
That link takes me to the search window. What is the title of the thread?

I have had a 57F59A for about a year now and just stumbled across this thread last week. I have not done any tweaks to my TV, but am interested in trying some of these out. I have read through this thread and the F59 thread and have found alot of information. I am curious where to start. I would like to know how to do the 117pt convergence test and anything else. I haven't had any problems with my HDMI from my HD-A2 so I am wondering if I should try the HDMI tweak. Any advice would be grestly appreciated.

Thanks,
Matt

I have had a 57F59A for about a year now and just stumbled across this thread last week. I have not done any tweaks to my TV, but am interested in trying some of these out. I have read through this thread and the F59 thread and have found alot of information. I am curious where to start. I would like to know how to do the 117pt convergence test and anything else. I haven't had any problems with my HDMI from my HD-A2 so I am wondering if I should try the HDMI tweak. Any advice would be grestly appreciated.

Thanks,
Matt

MAtt,

I suggest checking the 1st several posts in this thread. The downloadable F59 "DIY Guide" found there is a great start. Gives the basics for 117 pt DCAM adjustments as well as service menu access & popular "tweaks" that can be
done there.

From there, I would also suggest tracking down the F59 Service Manual. I believe Lee Bailey posted a link to a free, downlaodable .pdf somewhere in the last couple of pages of recent posts here. If not--and no one else locates it for you--I'll post it here later on.

Look at this post for the service manual:5XF59 Service Manual (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13645508#post13645508)

Mr. Bob,
That link takes me to the search window. What is the title of the thread?

Just changed it to the beginning of the thread instead. Try it again, it gets most heated on the second page -


Mr Bob

Just changed it to the beginning of the thread instead. Try it again, it gets most heated on the second page -


Mr Bob


Went & checked out that Spot thread.


Wow, Bob.......did someone pee in Chuck's Cheerios that morning?

I have seen some of the info on CRT RPTV that Chuck had posted there in the past. His responses to you on this topic felt out of character----but then perhaps that IS his character.

To each their own, I suppose. But to attack you like he has..........is Chuck really just one of those 13 yr old PS3 geeks, spouting web hate whenever possible?

Went & checked out that Spot thread.


Wow, Bob.......did someone pee in Chuck's Cheerios that morning?

I have seen some of the info on CRT RPTV that Chuck had posted there in the past. His responses to you on this topic felt out of character----but then perhaps that IS his character.

To each their own, I suppose. But to attack you like he has..........is Chuck really just one of those 13 yr old PS3 geeks, spouting web hate whenever possible?

He's inviting you guys to come over and answer him, about CRT RPTV and why it's still worth caring/doing anything about.

You gonna?


Mr Bob

He's inviting you guys to come over and answer him, about CRT RPTV and why it's still worth caring/doing anything about.

You gonna?


Mr Bob

Not right this second, but I imagine so.

At best, though, my response would likely be "So, Chuck.....am I an idiot for saving money via CRT RPTV for my big screen HDTV & foolish for spending the time I have making it look as awesome as it does now?". I leave the "technical" bits in your able hands - not to mention those here on this thread who have really taken the ball & run with it.

Think I still have a Spot login that's active.

The guy is entitled to his opinion. But when said opinion turns into such a condescending tone towards those that don't share it, that's when opinion begins to morph into that other thing opinions get compared to.

And he should get called on that.

He's inviting you guys to come over and answer him, about CRT RPTV and why it's still worth caring/doing anything about.

You gonna?


Mr Bob

Hey Mr. Bob... After going over there and reading what this guy has to say I realy don't feel like answering directly to him, I think it would be useless.

I think one of the points to make is that RPCRT can be compared to the best of TV technology that exists right now, and the fact is, even more to you guys in the industry, that can read black and white levels, and compare colors to perfect shades etc, etc, etc with tools that would prove this as for a fact not just as us consumers with a subjective opinion. The FACT is that RPCRT as well as CRT fp are still the defacto technology to be compared to. that is why all the such called experts talk about blacks as in CRTs; until the comparison changes to something like blacks like in supercooleddionizedsideinjectedlaser tvs then we can say that RPCRT should be thrown away.

Also, for your money there is not a better technology so far, and like you mentioned before, if you have the space, like I and many other do, then that is what it is, best bang for you buck.

One more thing, some one has to tell this guy go and try taking some screenshoot. I wonder if he knows that photography is consider an art? And yes Mr. Bob, to capture what you see, even that the video comes from the same source,,,,,,, HELLO!!!!! the light, is different in EVERY frame; you want proof, use what the professionals use, a light meter' so yes if you want to capture what you see, you will need to make adjustments. One step further, you could do post processing of the photos to, and yes you can make it look even better than what you had, isn't that what all the magazines do? however, we are trying to capture what we see.

Finally Mr. Bob, I think we are with you... and there is nothing wrong voicing your concerns on the changing industry specially if that represents your well being.

I think the majority of the members here well respect your opinion and point of view.

He's inviting you guys to come over and answer him, about CRT RPTV and why it's still worth caring/doing anything about.

You gonna?


Mr Bob

Hey Mr. Bob... After going over there and reading what this guy has to say I realy don't feel like answering directly to him, I think it would be useless.

I think one of the points to make is that RPCRT can be compared to the best of TV technology that exists right now, and the fact is, even more to you guys in the industry, that can read black and white levels, and compare colors to perfect shades etc, etc, etc with tools that would prove this as for a fact not just as us consumers with a subjective opinion. The FACT is that RPCRT as well as CRT fp are still the defacto technology to be compared to. that is why all the such called experts talk about blacks as in CRTs; until the comparison changes to something like blacks like in supercooleddionizedsideinjectedlaser tvs then we can say that RPCRT should be thrown away.

Also, for your money there is not a better technology so far, and like you mentioned before, if you have the space, like I and many other do, then that is what it is, best bang for you buck.

One more thing, some one has to tell this guy go and try taking some screenshoot. I wonder if he knows that photography is consider an art? And yes Mr. Bob, to capture what you see, even that the video comes from the same source,,,,,,, HELLO!!!!! the light, is different in EVERY frame; you want proof, use what the professionals use, a light meter' so yes if you want to capture what you see, you will need to make adjustments. One step further, you could do post processing of the photos to, and yes you can make it look even better than what you had, isn't that what all the magazines do? however, we are trying to capture what we see.

Finally Mr. Bob, I think we are with you... and there is nothing wrong voicing your concerns on the changing industry specially if that represents your well being.

I think the majority of the members here well respect your opinion and point of view.

Hey Mr. Bob... After going over there and reading what this guy has to say I realy don't feel like answering directly to him, I think it would be useless.

I think one of the points to make is that RPCRT can be compared to the best of TV technology that exists right now, and the fact is-and even more to you guys in the industry, that can read black and white levels, and compare colors to perfect shades etc, etc, etc with tools that would prove this as for a fact not just as us consumers with a subjective opinion. The FACT is that RPCRT as well as CRT fp are still the de facto technology to be compared to. That is why all the so called experts talk about blacks as in CRTs; until the comparison changes to something like blacks like in supercooleddionizedsideinjectedlaser tvs then we can say that RPCRT should be thrown away.

Also, for your money there is not a better technology so far, and like you mentioned before, if you have the space, like I and many others do, then that is what it is, best bang for you buck.

One more thing, some one has to tell this guy go and try taking some screenshots. I wonder if he knows that photography is consider an art? And yes Mr. Bob, to capture what you see, even that the video comes from the same source,,,,,,, HELLO!!!!! the light, is different in EVERY frame; you want proof, use what the professionals use, a light meter' so yes if you want to capture what you see, you will need to make adjustments. One step further, you could do post processing of the photos to, and yes you can make it look even better than what you had, isn't that what all the magazines do? however, we are trying to capture what we see.

Finally Mr. Bob, I think we are with you... and there is nothing wrong voicing your concerns on the changing industry specially if that represents your well being.

I think the majority of the members here well respect your opinion and point of view.


YEAH....what he said!:D

Great post, leo. I think THAT should be cut & pasted over to the Spot thread in question as a group response from the AVS CRT gang. Seriously.

Of course, as soon as you get ahold of a supercooleddionizedsideinjectedlaser tv, you'd better damn well get us some screenshots!;)

Went over to that thread and read it. Man that guy Chuck came unglued. He started out fine but became real personal fast. Can't agree with most of what he said but I really didnt like his delivery either. Anyway I posted a very short and courteous reply. Hopefully the hang over has worn off and he's in a better mood.

I had Black Auto and Black Detection moved from 00 before, and then I turned them all of and calibrated from there and I liked the picture better. And those settings don't do exactly what I need done. I just want the right above black lit up a little more, without touching everything else.

My STATG1 is at 2 and my SRTGA and APRTR are at 00 as well. Much cleaner picture I think

My Blk Auto, Blk Det are 00. My Blk area is 00. MY APRTR is 01 (all 3). SRTGA 00. STATG1 is 06. Does any of my settings sound to far off??

He's inviting you guys to come over and answer him, about CRT RPTV and why it's still worth caring/doing anything about.

You gonna?


Mr Bob

You bet. Did. Done.
Michael

My Blk Auto, Blk Det are 00. My Blk area is 00. MY APRTR is 01 (all 3). SRTGA 00. STATG1 is 06. Does any of my settings sound to far off??

Try APRTR at 00. If you have a "sharpness" screen from AVIA or DVE, you'll probably see a difference. Mine's back to 00 (all 3).
I have STATG1 at 00, but the difference is very minor (and hard to judge, since there's a dramatic difference between 00 and 01 and no way to directly compare 00 and 06). A gray scale test pattern can show the difference. Your choice.

Michael

My Blk Auto, Blk Det are 00. My Blk area is 00. MY APRTR is 01 (all 3). SRTGA 00. STATG1 is 06. Does any of my settings sound to far off??

I agree with Michael, turn the APRTR to 00. My STATG1 is at 7, that works for me, but my SUB-BRT and my BRT-SET are different than their original setting, and they all seem to adjust simliar things and have an affect on one another.

All, I was an avid reader of this thread a year or so ago when I got my 57f59, and thanks to you guys, ive been very happy. Right now I have a 360 with GTA4 thats giving me overscan issues so bad that I cant play that game cuz i cant see the whole screen. Is there anyone in\near the chicagoland area that would be willing to come out to Joliet, IL to help me eliminate as much overscan as possible? (someone experienced please.. i dont want to screw up my TV.. )..

yeah im having minor issues with that game as well on ps3. i can't read the cell phone becuase i need to stripe my lenses, the corner is too dark to make anything out on the screen.

i cant see the HUD\Money\wanted stars, or the entire phone at the bottom.

I wish Game Developers would take OVER SCAN into consideration when developing games. I will take a look @ how the HUD looks on my set as I didn't really see any Over Scan because I was too busy playing....:D

I wish Game Developers would take OVER SCAN into consideration when developing games. I will take a look @ how the HUD looks on my set as I didn't really see any Over Scan because I was too busy playing....:D

It's not just games anymore though. I'm seeing more broadcast channels that don't seem to account for over scan. CNNHD and ABCHD are the biggest offenders so far.

Fish

I agree with Michael, turn the APRTR to 00. My STATG1 is at 7, that works for me, but my SUB-BRT and my BRT-SET are different than their original setting, and they all seem to adjust simliar things and have an affect on one another.

Yea same problem I have. I adjusted the same values and didn't realize at that time that there are so many settings that affect each other.

STATG2 ?? What do you guys have set. I have mine on 3. BTW I tried the APRTR change. Dramatic difference. If any of you remember me posting about not being able to get much change from the up front sharpness setting when viewing the test pattern...I think you just solved it.

It's not just games anymore though. I'm seeing more broadcast channels that don't seem to account for over scan. CNNHD and ABCHD are the biggest offenders so far.

Fish

Totally agree with ya fish. Broadcast channels have been guilty of this for years

Totally agree with ya fish. Broadcast channels have been guilty of this for years


On mine (which sits @ 4% overscan all around), I get a bit of the ABCHD logo cut off (the tail end of the "D" on the right side). Other nets appear fine. The FOX HD logo sits off to the right a bit sometimes (the big, solid blue one), but I've seen it do similar--not as extreme--on fixed pixel sets, too.

Never had an issue w/ CNNHD. Closest is during election night coverage. The delagate totals on either side of the screen butt right up against the screen, and there is some non-essential video beyond. Get some on the Discovery Channel HD channels, but that seems to have more to do w/ the network "zooming" upscaled 4:3 (only really is noticable during commercials when there is text on the bottom of the screen).

As to games, I get no overscan problems with the Wii. I do know some video is hiding, but to date none has been essential to gameplay. One Super Smash Bros Brawl, for instance, if a character is knocked off screen past the point of overscan (at least my set's point), an icon apears with your character pictured & an arrow points to where they are.

A bit is cut off on some Virtual Console games, but this is likely similar to the Discovery Channel issue - the older NES/SNES/etc titles were 4:3 & Nintendo slightly zooms then to better fill the screen if your Wii is set to 16x9.

Never had an issue w/ CNNHD. Closest is during election night coverage. The delagate totals on either side of the screen butt right up against the screen, and there is some non-essential video beyond. .

That’s what I'm talking about (and the only time CNN is worth a damn, BTW). I haven't had a block of time available to do over scan and DCAM work so I'm missing a good portion of the delegate totals. I'm surprised it's an issue on fixed-pixel unit though.


Fish

I just want the right above black lit up a little more, without touching everything else.


Next time you have a bunch of time to kill, you may want to change YOUTG from 00 to 01. Then play with STATG1, and user Brightness and Contrast. You may have better luck with the low blacks.

STATG2 ?? What do you guys have set. I have mine on 3.

From my notes (which are getting harder to decipher as time goes on), default is 03 (where mine is), Lee recommended 02, Ballz uses 00. Range is from 00 to 03, as opposed to STATG1 which goes from 00 to 07. Again, a grayscale pattern will show you what's affected (the whites).

Looks like I'm good in reference to the HUD. I'm also good in reference to the top where they show how much money you have

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b329/bigfnjoe96/IMG_4979.jpg

Next time you have a bunch of time to kill, you may want to change YOUTG from 00 to 01. Then play with STATG1, and user Brightness and Contrast. You may have better luck with the low blacks.

The only problem with that is that it will affect too great a range. I like my blacks where they are, I just need a few IREs above black to be brighter, without changing anything else. With the more course controls in the set, I doubt that's possible. I'm playing around with it now to see where I can go.

i am just over 5% overscan. im a total novice and i mean NOVICE at this.. and ill frag my tv if i try it. im going to alabama for two days. after that, im begging.. if anyone can help me reduce my overscan.. PLEASE help.. remember. i am an idiot :).. i admit that upfront and in public. haahahahaa.. seriously.. ive never done that.. totally not experience in how to do it.. no tools.. no knowledge.. help?
-Joliet, IL

From my notes (which are getting harder to decipher as time goes on), default is 03 (where mine is), Lee recommended 02, Ballz uses 00. Range is from 00 to 03, as opposed to STATG1 which goes from 00 to 07. Again, a grayscale pattern will show you what's affected (the whites).

When will that evil word "Grayscale" go away:eek: I'll give it a try. I can't see a big dif in STATG1 at 00 and 06/07 so I'm leaving it on 00.

What do you guys have sub brightness set on. I have mine at about 70. I think the default was 6D or something close.

When will that evil word "Grayscale" go away:eek: I'll give it a try. I can't see a big dif in STATG1 at 00 and 06/07 so I'm leaving it on 00.

What do you guys have sub brightness set on. I have mine at about 70. I think the default was 6D or something close.

You need to look at something with a nice amount of light in it to set STATG2 in my experience. A perfect scene for me was the beginning of The Fifth Element where the priest is holding the vial of poison in the hall by himself. The vial will be overbearingly bright at one setting, and then correct at another. Mine is at 02, and STATG1 is at 07 although I'm sure the coorect setting was 03. But yours may be different depending on taste and possibly other settings. I believe my Sub bright is at 6F and my brightness is at 60. It may be too dark for some, but for me, the level of dimension it brings out can't be beat. I'm a freak for inky blacks, although I am missing out on some shadow detail, and that's why I want a gamma bump.

When will that evil word "Grayscale" go away:eek: I'll give it a try. I can't see a big dif in STATG1 at 00 and 06/07 so I'm leaving it on 00.

What do you guys have sub brightness set on. I have mine at about 70. I think the default was 6D or something close.

The default setting for Sub-Bright is 7F & is where I have mine with my Manual Brightness @ 50 for gaming & movies & 46 for cable TV Viewing. I also have STATG1 @ 06 & STATG2 @ 02.

i am just over 5% overscan. im a total novice and i mean NOVICE at this.. and ill frag my tv if i try it. im going to alabama for two days. after that, im begging.. if anyone can help me reduce my overscan.. PLEASE help.. remember. i am an idiot :).. i admit that upfront and in public. haahahahaa.. seriously.. ive never done that.. totally not experience in how to do it.. no tools.. no knowledge.. help?
-Joliet, IL

Seriously? You should probably leave your overscan alone.
If you were following along in this thread and you were comfortable in the service menu and had refocused the set or done some other (relatively) minor work, it might be worth the effort. BUT reducing overscan is a big deal, not for the faint-hearted. And you can really foul things up.
If you MUST have your overscan reduced, pay someone who knows what they're doing to do it for you.
Seriously!
Have a nice trip.
Michael

You need to look at something with a nice amount of light in it to set STATG2 in my experience. A perfect scene for me was the beginning of The Fifth Element where the priest is holding the vial of poison in the hall by himself. The vial will be overbearingly bright at one setting, and then correct at another. Mine is at 02, and STATG1 is at 07 although I'm sure the coorect setting was 03. But yours may be different depending on taste and possibly other settings. I believe my Sub bright is at 6F and my brightness is at 60. It may be too dark for some, but for me, the level of dimension it brings out can't be beat. I'm a freak for inky blacks, although I am missing out on some shadow detail, and that's why I want a gamma bump.

I know what you mean. I love the dark luxurious blacks but miss the detail. If I crank brightness up to much I get the washed out look I hate. I have not found that happy middle ground yet. STATG1 at anything lower than 5 is so dark while 06+ or 00 just seems to light. I'm thinking there is a mixture of settings that will get it there but dont feel like going thru all that trouble to hit on it. I probably will though.

Seriously? You should probably leave your overscan alone.
If you were following along in this thread and you were comfortable in the service menu and had refocused the set or done some other (relatively) minor work, it might be worth the effort. BUT reducing overscan is a big deal, not for the faint-hearted. And you can really foul things up.
If you MUST have your overscan reduced, pay someone who knows what they're doing to do it for you.
Seriously!
Have a nice trip.
Michael

thanks.. yeah i have to have it reduced.. its cutting off the ends and sides of the games i play on the xbox

Looks like I'm good in reference to the HUD. I'm also good in reference to the top where they show how much money you have

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b329/bigfnjoe96/IMG_4979.jpg

is that on the 360 or ps3 and are you running at 1080i or 720p scaled to 1080i? on the ps3 running at 1080i it looks really bad on my screen, so i went back and checked off 720p on the ps3 resolution menu and it looks much clearer. i seriously need to do some lens striping, my cell phone screen is so dark i can barely read it. i dont want to mess with the screen brightness and get it bright enough to read the cellphone screen but wash everything else out in the process and then have to worry about IR.

I wish Game Developers would take OVER SCAN into consideration when developing games. I will take a look @ how the HUD looks on my set as I didn't really see any Over Scan because I was too busy playing....:D

the demo for mlb 08 the show on ps3 has an adjustment mode for overscan it is AWESOME. too bad other devs werent as forward thinking as those guys who ever they are.

is that on the 360 or ps3 and are you running at 1080i or 720p scaled to 1080i? on the ps3 running at 1080i it looks really bad on my screen, so i went back and checked off 720p on the ps3 resolution menu and it looks much clearer. i seriously need to do some lens striping, my cell phone screen is so dark i can barely read it. i dont want to mess with the screen brightness and get it bright enough to read the cellphone screen but wash everything else out in the process and then have to worry about IR.


This screen shot is from the 360 version via HDMI @ 1080I. You do know that the game has it's own Brightness & Contrast Adjust in the menu? Maybe this is an option for you instead of doing anything to the display.

Also that screen shot is on the game Default Video Settings

It's not just games anymore though. I'm seeing more broadcast channels that don't seem to account for over scan. CNNHD and ABCHD are the biggest offenders so far.

Fish

hey fish im in grand rapids too! what hitachi reps have you had good luck with and what screen do you have?

This screen shot is from the 360 version via HDMI @ 1080I. You do know that the game has it's own Brightness & Contrast Adjust in the menu? Maybe this is an option for you instead of doing anything to the display.

Also that screen shot is on the game Default Video Settings

yeah i know, almost everything i have read and everyone i have tlaked to has had to pump up the brightness. i have it pretty much maxed out but its with my lens striping im almost sure of it, i wish i could get a picture but i dont have a camera handy, only access i have to one is at work. ill have to try and sneak it out of there.

my dad has the game on ps3 downstairs. ill have to hook up my 360 via component and see if i notice a diference. i do know that the ps3 runs at a lower resolution than the 360, something like only 630p native, but 1080i looks terrible on the ps3. i was hoping for the opposite as the only thime the tv stays in 1080i mode is when watching a bluray or directv.

"thanks.. yeah i have to have it reduced.. its cutting off the ends and sides of the games i play on the xbox"




I'll be glad to help you via phone coaching or live if you want to fly me in, but the guys here can point you in the right directions for no charge I am sure. It's not an easy task, and will take some investment on your part one way or another, either by getting the service manual and manning the intense learning curve yourself and taking your chances, or by someone helping out over the phone or in person.

There are at least 3 other Hit threads in this section, on at least one there should be massive instructions on anything you want to do with your set, including overscan reduction.


Mr Bob

Something new to try in the future. The idea is simple, and gotten from another user over in this post:RPCRT Reference Material - Color Decoding (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1010146)
The idea is to move the guns closer to the mirror to maximize the surface of the CRTs when they are set to their normal overscan. This should help in keeping from stressing the convergence ic's, as well being able to rein in all the overscan(or as close as possible)

From looking at the manual, there are just 4 screws for each gun. I also noticed that for the 65 inch model, there are shims installed under the blue and red guns. (To Mr. Bob: the same assembly is used for all the F59 models, same 7" guns, though the lens are a different part number.) So, we will not have to remove all those other screws from what I can see.

The key will be to keep the angle of the guns pointed at the same spot on the mirror to minimize trapozoidal errors, then correcting the focus and any other geometry errors that come up. When I have time, I will start by experimenting with the green gun. The bad part is that I will first have to take my screen back to the stock overscan before I start.:(

Anyone who cares to jump into this mod, please do.

Mr. Bob has performed this mod on his Mitsubishi already, with great results.

Hopefully, I can start on this before the end of May, if my free time allows.

Something new to try in the future. The idea is simple, and gotten from another user over in this post:RPCRT Reference Material - Color Decoding (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1010146)
The idea is to move the guns closer to the mirror to maximize the surface of the CRTs when they are set to their normal overscan. This should help in keeping from stressing the convergence ic's, as well being able to rein in all the overscan(or as close as possible)

From looking at the manual, there are just 4 screws for each gun. I also noticed that for the 65 inch model, there are shims installed under the blue and red guns. (To Mr. Bob: the same assembly is used for all the F59 models, same 7" guns, though the lens are a different part number.) So, we will not have to remove all those other screws from what I can see.

The key will be to keep the angle of the guns pointed at the same spot on the mirror to minimize trapozoidal errors, then correcting the focus and any other geometry errors that come up. When I have time, I will start by experimenting with the green gun. The bad part is that I will first have to take my screen back to the stock overscan before I start.:(

Anyone who cares to jump into this mod, please do.

Mr. Bob has performed this mod on his Mitsubishi already, with great results.

Hopefully, I can start on this before the end of May, if my free time allows.

How long ago did you do your sm overscan? If years ago, the footprint on your CRT faces will already be embedded. If you take your overscan back to where it was before in order to do this mod, and it was years ago, the surrounding edges will be brighter than the middle areas.

It's a great mod and improved my images, but does have certain limitations...

Also, I didn't shim each gun, I shimmed the entire array. If you shim each gun, be sure NOT to disturb the springs, AT ALL. They are there to cushion the glass of the CRTs against shattering.

Data on what I know about it is over at the thread mentioned -


Mr Bob

How long ago did you do your sm overscan? If years ago, the footprint on your CRT faces will already be embedded. If you take your overscan back to where it was before in order to do this mod, and it was years ago, the surrounding edges will be brighter than the middle areas.

It's a great mod and improved my images, but does have certain limitations...

Also, I didn't shim each gun, I shimmed the entire array. If you shim each gun, be sure NOT to disturb the springs, AT ALL. They are there to cushion the glass of the CRTs against shattering.

Data on what I know about it is over at the thread mentioned -


Mr Bob

I've had the set for 2 years. Reduced overscan about 1 1/2 years ago. I've always kept my contrast low. I think the mod is worth trying. As far as moving just the guns, I will defer to your knowledge. I need to get inside and verify things anyways. It may indeed end up simpler to adjust the whole array.

If Lee can make it happen on his 57F59, I have hope that I could do the same for the 51.

Would have to revert back to factory o'scan first......guess it's good I still have the conv grid overlay.

Curious, Bob, as to how much video "real estate" was gained when you did your Mits. Where does it lie now in terms of overscan?

If Lee can make it happen on his 57F59, I have hope that I could do the same for the 51.

Would have to revert back to factory o'scan first......guess it's good I still have the conv grid overlay.

Curious, Bob, as to how much video "real estate" was gained when you did your Mits. Where does it lie now in terms of overscan?

The HD now runs at about 4% of the HD DVD DVE overscan pattern, all around. That pattern is a very good one to use for this purpose, BTW, both HD discs have it. I believe they all have around 6% OOB. Doesn't look like it would do that much good, but it does.

My CRTs were filled up pretty good, OOB, I pretty much left it alone sizewise once it was down to 4% because of the shimming. Remember, they may not be perfectly centered on each CRT, and unless you want to go reaiming your CRTs in there - a big job - you gotta co-operate with where each image is on your screens, and hope that shoving one one way won't cause you to have to shove the other one too far the other way.

All things considered I was happy to let my overscan stay just where it was. But now that I know that I might be able to get another half inch of shimming in there, along with the inch and a half that I already did, I might try experimenting again, to see if an even better pic might be obtainable...


Mr Bob

The HD now runs at about 4% of the HD DVD DVE overscan pattern, all around. That pattern is a very good one to use for this purpose, BTW, both HD discs have it. I believe they all have around 6% OOB. Doesn't look like it would do that much good, but it does.

My CRTs were filled up pretty good, OOB, I pretty much left it alone sizewise once it was down to 4% because of the shimming. Remember, they may not be perfectly centered on each CRT, and unless you want to go reaiming your CRTs in there - a big job - you gotta co-operate with where each image is on your screens, and hope that shoving one one way won't cause you to have to shove the other one too far the other way.

All things considered I was happy to let my overscan stay just where it was. But now that I know that I might be able to get another half inch of shimming in there, along with the inch and a half that I already did, I might try experimenting again, to see if an even better pic might be obtainable...


Mr Bob

I'm currently sitting at just above 4% now, having done the reduction "the old fashioned" way ;) w/o any real negative effects that I can see.

Did the original reduction via the H/V size pots using the Hit service manual instructions for setting H/V size. Redid all geometry w/o the overlay---which is of course useless once you redo o'scan to lower than OOB levels.

Anything below 4% led to the dreaded "curling" or fraying of the grid edges. Had read elsewhere some time back that o'scan reduction beyond this was essentially impossible as 7" CRTs just can't go down that far - won't resolve 1080i "fully".

What little is still cut off is of no real consequence to me. Anything I need to see - incl. text on things such as CNN HD or CBS HD NFL coverage all fits--but may be butted right up against the screen edges.

Only real cutoff I see currently is w/ the ABC HD bug. About 1/3 of the "D" in said logo bug is beyond the right edge.

Other than that, everything fits fine. Even video games on Wii have no ill effects of not having 0% o'scan.

Since I followed the HItachi directions for size/voltage adjustment & dialed in conv/geo at the new size---and DID NOT simply move the grid in DCAM to adjust for size or move grid out to overlay size while at the "smaller" voltage/size-----I am assuming that I'm not driving the conv ICs too much?

Speaking of Wii, I use it's Internet browser once in a while---even made a few AVS posts on it. Will say that text is very sharp & readable. And even @ only 480p, some Wii titles look freaking great, esp SUPER MARIO GALAXY. One of the prettiest games I have seen on any system.

I opened up the back of my TV today. What I've found so far are in these 2 pics. There are only a total of 7 screws on each end that have to be removed. The first 4 hold down the wood pieces on each side, and go through the top mounting plate of the CRT tray. That plastic protrusion in red will probably have to be cut off.

109407


The next 3 screws on that side will be harder to get to, but not impossible. They are here:

109408

You'll have to check all the cable bundles, and release them from their holders before raising the tray. Once the screws are released on both sides, the tray will need to be lifted up, and the boards reinstalled. This will already have raised the CRTs about 1/2 inch. I can see already that raising them too high will make it a real pain to get in there for lens cleaning.

You definitely don’t want to reposition each gun individually; repositioning the entire CRT amounting frame is by FAR the best option.
The design of my 57” Hitachi is very different to the US model, only 4 vertically mounted bolts needed to be removed to release the mounting frame on my set.
After inserting spacers under each side of the CRT mounting frame I left it free so it could be slid around to re centre the image, you don’t want to be doing that with electronic adjustment or you will put the image off centre on the CRT’s.
There is no need to bolt/screw down the CRT frame unless the set needs to be transported.

You really need to lift the CRTs at least a couple of inches to get a significant reduction in overscan. If half an inch is all you are contemplating I would say don’t bother.


By far the best way to work on the set is to remove the screen. While it is off it would be a good idea to black out the inferior of the cabinet and the inside of the screen bezel with suitable cloth or flat black paint. The bezel area around the screen edge is important because the over scanned image projects directly onto it and if it is not black will reflect back into the cabinet and reduce ANSI contrast significantly. Anything in the cabinet that could reflect light (other then the mirror) should be blacked out for the same reason.

If you are after the best possible ANSI contrast it would be a good idea to fabricate a lens shield or shields. The idea of this shield is to block light that refracts or scatters of the lens surfaces from shinning directly onto the back of the screen or the interior of the cabinet.
An effective shield will make it impossible to see the CRT lenses directly (not via the mirror). To test this remove the screen and with your eyes on the same plain as the screen surface look down at the lenses, you should not be able to see them at all, just the shield. The only way you should be able to see the CRT lenes is via the mirror, even when looking down from the top edge of the screen plain. You also need the check that the shield does not obstruct the light path to the screen via the mirror.
With your eyes on the screen plain, look at the CRT’s via the mirror from every corner and edge of the screen (especially the lower edge) and make sure the active area of the lenses are not obscured by your shield or shields.

On my set the screen could be pushed back into place and needed no screws to hold it. I could therefore lift the screen off instantly any time I needed to. A few screws could be used for added security if needed but you should not need to put them all back in unless transporting the set.

There are normally sensors on the screen edges for the auto convergence system. You should never use the auto convergence button if you are serious about good convergence so these sensors and their wiring harness can be disconnected and removed. This makes it super quick and simple to remove the screen for cleaning or whatever.

why dont you go into the service menu and change the position of the screen from there it might help a little

You definitely don’t want to reposition each gun individually; repositioning the entire CRT mounting frame is by FAR the best option.
The design of my 57” Hitachi is very different to the US model, only 4 vertically mounted bolts needed to be removed to release the mounting frame on my set.
After inserting spacers under each side of the CRT mounting frame I left it free so it could be slid around to re centre the image, you don’t want to be doing that with electronic adjustment or you will put the image off centre on the CRT’s.
There is no need to bolt/screw down the CRT frame unless the set needs to be transported.

You really need to lift the CRTs at least a couple of inches to get a significant reduction in overscan. If half an inch is all you are contemplating I would say don’t bother.


By far the best way to work on the set is to remove the screen. While it is off it would be a good idea to black out the interior of the cabinet and the inside of the screen bezel with suitable cloth or flat black paint. The bezel area around the screen edge is important because the over scanned image projects directly onto it and if it is not black will reflect back into the cabinet and reduce ANSI contrast significantly. Anything in the cabinet that could reflect light (other then the mirror) should be blacked out for the same reason.

If you are after the best possible ANSI contrast it would be a good idea to fabricate a lens shield or shields. The idea of this shield is to block light that refracts or scatters of the lens surfaces from shinning directly onto the back of the screen or the interior of the cabinet.
An effective shield will make it impossible to see the CRT lenses directly (not via the mirror). To test this remove the screen and with your eyes on the same plain as the screen surface look down at the lenses, you should not be able to see them at all, just the shield. The only way you should be able to see the CRT lenes is via the mirror, even when looking down from the top edge of the screen plain. You also need the check that the shield does not obstruct the light path to the screen via the mirror.
With your eyes on the screen plain, look at the CRT’s via the mirror from every corner and edge of the screen (especially the lower edge) and make sure the active area of the lenses are not obscured by your shield or shields.

On my set the screen could be pushed back into place and needed no screws to hold it. I could therefore lift the screen off instantly any time I needed to. A few screws could be used for added security if needed but you should not need to put them all back in unless transporting the set.

There are normally sensors on the screen edges for the auto convergence system. You should never use the auto convergence button if you are serious about good convergence so these sensors and their wiring harness can be disconnected and removed. This makes it super quick and simple to remove the screen for cleaning or whatever.

Thanks Owen. I was only contemplating shimming the guns as a last resort. I do have a shield installed, as well as Duvetyne covering the bottom of the unit. I just removed all of that for taking the pictures. Fortunately, on the 57 and 65 inch F59 models, the entire screen cavity can be removed as one unit, usually to facilitate moving it.

why dont you go into the service menu and change the position of the screen from there it might help a little

Jeremy,

The purpose of this mod is to get the overscan under control as much as possible mechanically first, then use the service menu and other adjustments to fix the geometry errors. When trying to rein in overscan to under 4% on these sets electronically, they tend to start having geometry and convergence problems on the outer edges.

Next time you have a bunch of time to kill, you may want to change YOUTG from 00 to 01. Then play with STATG1, and user Brightness and Contrast. You may have better luck with the low blacks.

Actually, didn't take much time at all.
Here are my before and after settings. Had to change the color decoder settings for blue; red and green were still perfect (don't ask me why).
End result is colors more saturated, vibrant. I like it.
Let me know what you think.

YOUTG 00 01
STATG1 00 04
COLOR-STD 1F 36
TINT-STD 1F 1E
CONTRAST 25 20 (user menu)

Michael

To clarify: The values you get for COLOR-STD and TINT-STD are from calibrating with color bars, described above. DON'T just use these numbers (36 and 1E). STATG1 and contrast, on the other hand, are to taste.

why dont you go into the service menu and change the position of the screen from there it might help a little


Changing the position of the image on the screen via sm, changes its position on the CRT face. This has its values, but it also has its drawbacks.

This should not be done on the green, but will need to be done on the red and blue, since the position where they presently are will change, side to side, with the shimming mod. It WON'T change with the green, as the green is not hitting the screen from a side off angle, like the red and blue are.

But the centering of the green gun on the CRT - still your template - should NOT change horizontally, unless it is really off to start with. And not even then if it's correctly centered on the viewscreen, and you don't want to man a whole new learning curve on re-aiming the green gun.

Since there is lots of unused space at the t/b of a 4x3 CRT face pj'd to a 16x9 screen, it should DEFINITELY not be changed vertically.

The 16x9 phosphor aging footprint already emblazoned on your CRT faces will depend on how old your set is when you do this op, but if it's centered OK on the green gun already, there's really no need to change that, mechanically or via sm, on the CRT face itself. Yes on red and blue, no on green.

Doing so just brings in other variables - like the set's age - that don't need to factor in, on this op.

As Lee says, centering the new, shimmed pic should be done mecanically AMAP. I used rubber doorstops as wedges to elevate my array to JUST the right amount vertically, to center it perfectly before the elongated screws I bought to replace the old shorter ones, were tightened down. Naturally this required lots of taking the screen off and putting it back on again...

Once you are happy with the mod, you might also want to put some glue on the sides of the blocks and whatever they touch in there, to keep them in place after that, in case you ever have any need to lift that array up again for any reason. That way they won't fall out when you do. On mine this can be done from down below -

There will be a vertical angling that the array will try to do on you, if you only use 1 set of blocks per side. You gotta use 2 sets per side, to keep that angling under control and OUT of the equation, perfectly parallel to how it started. They become a perfectly parallel sled, that the array will glide forward and back on, for the vertical centering.


Mr Bob

Actually, didn't take much time at all.
Here are my before and after settings. Had to change the color decoder settings for blue; red and green were still perfect (don't ask me why).
End result is colors more saturated, vibrant. I like it.
Let me know what you think.

YOUTG 00 01
STATG1 00 04
COLOR-STD 1F 36
TINT-STD 1F 1E
CONTRAST 25 20 (user menu)

Michael

To clarify: The values you get for COLOR-STD and TINT-STD are from calibrating with color bars, described above. DON'T just use these numbers (36 and 1E). STATG1 and contrast, on the other hand, are to taste.

Does the 59 series not have a SUB-CONT Value? I ask because User Contrast @ 2o seems very low

Does the 59 series not have a SUB-CONT Value? I ask because User Contrast @ 2o seems very low

Yeah it does. My contrast is at 25 I believe.

Yeah it does. My contrast is at 25 I believe.

That can't be right. SUB-CONTRAST can only go as high as 1F

That can't be right. SUB-CONTRAST can only go as high as 1F

My contrast is at 25, I can't remember what my sub contrast is at. :D

My contrast is at 25, I can't remember what my sub contrast is at. :D

Scared me there for a minute... :eek:

I know we have different models, but ISF calibration has my Contrast @ 40. I have my sub-contrast @ 10 because I have YOUTG @ 1

Scared me there for a minute... :eek:

I know we have different models, but ISF calibration has my Contrast @ 40. I have my sub-contrast @ 10 because I have YOUTG @ 1

My sub contrast is at 14 and my contrast is at 30 actually My YOUTG is at 0.

Scared me there for a minute... :eek:

I know we have different models, but ISF calibration has my Contrast @ 40. I have my sub-contrast @ 10 because I have YOUTG @ 1

You have YOUTG at 01 and you've waited THIS LONG to tell me!!!:mad:
Anyone else?

Didn't see the sense to changing SUBCNT just to change the mid-point of my user contrast setting. Or am I missing something? (Wouldn't be the first time.:))

Michael

Hey guys...is there any difference in changing YOUTG from 00 to 01 and changing the brightness and contrast in the standard menu? Is there any benefit to doing one over the other?

Thanks in advance...

I had alittle time today to play with my settings. I Changed YOUTG to 01 and the contrast, brightness is increased considerably. Reduced contrast to 26 and brightness to 55. Did not had time to mess with the color decoding, but I will probably this weekend (maybe next weekend "Mother's day").

I believe that even with the user settings at a lower rate the marging for adjustments seems larger.

I'll try to take some screenshots and post them in the regular place.

Hey guys...is there any difference in changing YOUTG from 00 to 01 and changing the brightness and contrast in the standard menu? Is there any benefit to doing one over the other?

Thanks in advance...

YOUTG changes the gamma, though, unfortunately, it doesn't tell us what the gammas are (only choices are 00 and 01). It changes the middle of the curve more than brightness (blacks) and contrast (whites), which affect the ends of the curve.
I may break down soon and get a spectrometer. This stuff is getting really interesting. In the meantime, I don't think I've broken anything, I still have an extended warranty, and I'm having a blast.
So try it and see what you think.

Michael

YOUTG changes the gamma, though, unfortunately, it doesn't tell us what the gammas are (only choices are 00 and 01). It changes the middle of the curve more than brightness (blacks) and contrast (whites), which affect the ends of the curve.
I may break down soon and get a spectrometer. This stuff is getting really interesting. In the meantime, I don't think I've broken anything, I still have an extended warranty, and I'm having a blast.
So try it and see what you think.

Michael


Thanks for the explanation...I'm going to keep it on 01 for a bit - it seems that the contrast and brightness with that setting are more "moderate". With it set to 00 I was pushing close to 70 brightness during the day.

Thanks for the explanation...I'm going to keep it on 01 for a bit - it seems that the contrast and brightness with that setting are more "moderate". With it set to 00 I was pushing close to 70 brightness during the day.

You also need to look at your other settings that affect the black level. Such as STATG1 and the other settings above it in the SM. My brightness is currently at 60 I believe. But as I've stateed before I have less shadow detail and opt for absolute blacks and more dimensionalty. I find it far less objectionable to my eyes than more shadow detail a more washed out picture. As soon as someone comes out with an HDMI based gamma box, I'll have it all I tell ya, I'll have it all!!!

You also need to look at your other settings that affect the black level. Such as STATG1 and the other settings above it in the SM. My brightness is currently at 60 I believe. But as I've stateed before I have less shadow detail and opt for absolute blacks and more dimensionalty. I find it far less objectionable to my eyes than more shadow detail a more washed out picture. As soon as someone comes out with an HDMI based gamma box, I'll have it all I tell ya, I'll have it all!!!

Moome, dude. Moome! That's what Cliff uses, on his G90 doublestack, and it's incredible! Saw it in action myself. There's nothing better, or Cliff woulda been using THAT!

Go to the curt palme site!

www.curtpalme.com


Mr Bob

Moome, dude. Moome! That's what Cliff uses, on his G90 doublestack, and it's incredible! Saw it in action myself. There's nothing better, or Cliff woulda been using THAT!

Go to the curt palme site!

www.curtpalme.com


Mr Bob

I would love to, but I can't stand having to run the signal through so many cable changes as well as going to component before it hits my sweet Hitachi. Curt has no choice if wants to be able to run 1080p digitally out of the player, he has to use a Moome or other such box, and it has to be converted to RGB at the projector. I'd have to go from my Blu Ray player(HDMI) to the Moome(HDMI) and then from the Moome(RGB) to another (RGB to component)transcoder. I would much rather have a box that is entirely in the digital domain. I've asked, and I have heard it's coming from X-VUE, just not soon.

You guys got me to finally look at my Youtg setting. I run it on 01. Has anyone found that they had to re-adjust a slew of setting if they went back to 00. Right now at 00 the fleshtones or anything brighter than a dark background look dull at 00. The adjustment effect on blacks is there but not as exxagerrated as the whites.

Run contrast at 28 under Youtg 01, and sub contrast at 14. Anyone else close to that or am I a little jacked up on sub contr with Yougt @ 01?

My contrast right now is about 40% how low do you think i can have it to play a video game like grand theft auto 4 with out affecting the picture quality or affecting the tv.

We'll after testing (STATG10: 06 STATG20- 02 & YOUTG-0: 01) I've decided to go back to the Service Menu Settings that Kevin Miller calibrated my set to:

STATG10: 06
STATG20: 00
YOUTG-0: 00

For this picture User Settings are as such: (KM Calibrated User Settings)

Contrast: 40
Brightness: 46
Color: 65
Tint: 3 clicks left(RED) from the middle
Sharpness: 55

All Enhancements: OFF

(As posted in the Reference Thread)

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b329/bigfnjoe96/37a3abc5.jpg

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b329/bigfnjoe96/5388bb74.jpg

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b329/bigfnjoe96/46a7260b.jpg

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b329/bigfnjoe96/4a6b2403.jpg

We'll after testing (STATG10: 06 STATG20- 02 & YOUTG-0: 01) I've decided to go back to the Service Menu Settings that Kevin Miller calibrated my set to:

STATG10: 06
STATG20: 00
YOUTG-0: 00

For this picture User Settings are as such: (KM Calibrated User Settings)

Contrast: 40
Brightness: 46
Color: 65
Tint: 3 clicks left(RED) from the middle
Sharpness: 55

All Enhancements: OFF


I wouldn't expect you to need or want to change anything after a set has been professionally calibrated. That is, after all, the whole point to the professional calibration!
I am surprised, though, that the user menu items weren't changed to default to 50/middle. But what you have looks great, so be it.

what does YOUTG-0 do

Came across a FREE calibration disc that looks quite complete (and works! I've used it). Download and instructions are here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=948496

So if you've wanted to do the color decoder tweak and haven't been able to because you don't have DVE or AVIA, get this and you're set.
Also has a bunch of other stuff, so get it even if you don't want to tweak anything (but if you don't, why are you here?).

Note: it does require an HD or Blu player.

what does YOUTG-0 do

Changes the gamma.
Aren't you glad you asked?!
I have a colorimeter on its way (yay!), so that's one of the questions I'm hoping to answer more specifically in a week or two.
If you change it, you will want to experiment with your settings for STATG01 also (I don't think I changed STATG02), and, of course, the user menu settings for contrast and brightness.
A nice grayscale pattern helps see what it's doing. The demo disc, above, for example.

POST #500! Wow.
Thanks for your help and your tolerance, everyone (well, almost everyone :)).

My contrast right now is about 40% how low do you think i can have it to play a video game like grand theft auto 4 with out affecting the picture quality or affecting the tv. what is a same level to put my contrast on to prevent burn ins

also here are my setting do u think there are any changers i can make

DAY:
CONT - 41
BRIGHT - 60
COL - 61
TINT - 4 clicks to left
SHARP - 50
COL TEMP -MED

APRTR-3 (APRTR-NTSC): 00
APRTR-G (APRTR-SDTV): 00
APRTR-I (APRTR-HDTV): 00
COLORG: 01
SRTGA: 00
STATG1: 06
STATG2: 00

WHITE BAL HIGH:
G DRV HIGH - 2B
R DRV HIGH - 15
R CUT HIGH - 8A
G CUT HIGH - 7E
B CUT HIGH - 99

WHITE BAL MED:
G DRV MED - 4B
R DRV MED - 56
R CUT MED - 70
G CUT MED - 92
B CUT MED - 7F

WHIT BAL STD:
G DRV STD - 50
R DRV STD - 55
R CUT STD - 7F
G CUT STD - 7F
B CUT STD - 7F

this is were i found it http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=944903&highlight=hitachi+red

also here are my setting do u think there are any changers i can make

Sure, you can change anything you want.:)

Burn-in is only an issue with images that don't move (station logos or 4:3 sidebars, for example). Depending on the game(s), that may or may not become a problem.

The whole point to calibrating a set is to make THAT set as accurate as possible. Copying numbers from one set to another may get you closer or it may not. Running through AVIA or DVE is a big step in the right direction. The tips here give you an idea of what to look for in your final picture; the numbers you need to use to get there depend on your particular set.

I don't suggest changing anything under White Balance High. That actually seems to be set at the factory for each set at D10500K. You're using Medium, which is fine, and your white balance for medium has been changed from the default, so you have done some adjusting, hopefully to get closer to D6500K.

The really important stuff is inside: cleaning the mirror and the lenses, discussed ad nauseam elsewhere. Without that, you can change registers until you're blue in the face and the image will never be terrific.

Of course, that won't matter much if you're just playing GTA.:)

Enjoy.

Michael

so you dont know if it got me in the ball park because what i see on my tv is very nice picture to me but i am an amachure i post some pics in the future to show after i get a good camera. when i am watching the baseball games it look beautiful the whites are not to bright i see some of my family tv and they have there contrast set to 100% and the white are to strong.

so you dont know if it got me in the ball park because what i see on my tv is very nice picture to me but i am an amachure i post some pics in the future to show after i get a good camera. when i am watching the baseball games it look beautiful the whites are not to bright i see some of my family tv and they have there contrast set to 100% and the white are to strong.

Just for fun, I tried your settings. As expected, they looked terrible on my set. So what you have works for you, so stop worrying about it.
And get your folks to reduce their contrast. They're killing their set.

My contrast right now is about 40% how low do you think i can have it to play a video game like grand theft auto 4 with out affecting the picture quality or affecting the tv. what is a same level to put my contrast on to prevent burn ins

also here are my setting do u think there are any changers i can make

DAY:
CONT - 41
BRIGHT - 60
COL - 61
TINT - 4 clicks to left
SHARP - 50
COL TEMP -MED

APRTR-3 (APRTR-NTSC): 00
APRTR-G (APRTR-SDTV): 00
APRTR-I (APRTR-HDTV): 00
COLORG: 01
SRTGA: 00
STATG1: 06
STATG2: 00

WHITE BAL HIGH:
G DRV HIGH - 2B
R DRV HIGH - 15
R CUT HIGH - 8A
G CUT HIGH - 7E
B CUT HIGH - 99

WHITE BAL MED:
G DRV MED - 4B
R DRV MED - 56
R CUT MED - 70
G CUT MED - 92
B CUT MED - 7F

WHIT BAL STD:
G DRV STD - 50
R DRV STD - 55
R CUT STD - 7F
G CUT STD - 7F
B CUT STD - 7F

this is were i found it http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=944903&highlight=hitachi+red

:eek: I see you have Colorg at 01. Man was that a hot topic about a couple of months ago. Pretty much everyone who tweaked themselves to death on color decoding has moved it to 00 and adjusted the decoder from there. Make sure your grayscale is good first though. I will look for the threads as I initiated a lot of the ones with my blunders:D

LastButNotLeast what are your setting

This is a letter I just emailed to an executive at NBC, after talking with him about this and having him request that I send it in, so he can run it up the flagpole and try and get something done, from his corner.

It came pouring out of me after trying to watch Friday night's Battlestar Galactica at my set's normal light level, and being prevented from doing so because of safety issues for my set, around SciFi HD's totally bright station logo. Let's hope a good response is forthcoming, and that it spreads industry wide...


Mr Bob



Ron –

To recap our phone conversation of earlier this morning, the SciFi logo on your SciFi channel is as we speak damaging countless phosphor based big screens out there in the world. Same goes for USA and many other logos, your channel is not alone. MSNBC, however, is one of the most well known logos that damage big screens. I travel all over the country in my big screen calibration work, and I have seen some REALLY bad screenburn out there.

Phosphor based big screens, which include ALL CRT based triple gun projection sets and ALL plasmas – and all CRT directviews, tho to a lesser degree – have a defined age and half-life. That much is a given, that’s simply nature of the beast with phosphors. They are sensitive to the aging of their phosphors. Have you ever seen a security monitor that has been set on a certain doorway for years? That doorway’s image gets so screenburned that you can see it even when the set is OFF. Go to any gaming arcade and you will see horrific examples of screenburn on the CRT sets where fixed graphics sit on the screen between playings, imprinting themseves hour after hour after hour...

“Screenburn” is defined as “uneven phospor aging”. ANY FIXED IMAGE left on a phosphor based set will eventually screenburn a set, unless it is exactly at half intensity. (In other words, average intensity between the darkest and brightest areas of the screen.) Logos are fixed images. They never move, they ALWAYS hit exactly the same area of the CRT screens, every minute of every day and night that they are up there. Eventually they take their toll, in uneven phosphor aging.

In viewing my HD recording of the latest episode of Battlestar Galactica this morning, from Friday night, it was apparent that I can no longer sit on the sidelines on this issue. I had to turn DOWN my contrast – overall light level – from its already relatively low setting on my 73” triple gun CRT based Mitsubishi big screen, to be able to watch the episode without damaging my 3 internal CRT faces, which are being projected onto my viewscreen. Your SciFI logo is at virtually 100% intensity, which was verified by comparing it to the white bow of the boat shown in one of the final scenes, where the president and her friend were in a dream sequence and the logo was at some points up against the white of the boat. The Scifi logo was completely invisible up against the white of the boat. This is an easily available test on your end.

BSG is of course shot very darkly, so my viewing pleasure was solidly compromised by having to turn down the overall light level of my set to be able to watch the show safely. Doctor Who had the same light intensity on their logos, and while you and I talked, it was plainly apparent that USA has damaging intensity on its logos as well, even brighter than the SciFi logo. Universal HD was much better, with a very non-intense logo. Haven’t looked at MSNBC lately, but if it’s the same as when I last saw it I would NEVER tune into that channel, for the news or for any other purpose. It would be death to my bigscreen. I have been hearing about that one for literally years. You are losing market share from videophiles and anyone else who values their big screen, all of whom feel the same as I do.


This is a problem that has been plaguing big screens since their inception, because the light levels on phosphor-based big screens has to be run very strongly, being that the CRT faces being projected onto the much bigger viewscreen are only a fraction of the size of the viewscreen itself. So it has to be run a lot harder than the screen of a directview, like a simple 19” monitor. Since HD on big screen has become so popular, it has become a giant issue across the entire industry, that needs to be addressed. You can find references to it all over the internet, yet nobody in power to do anything about it has seemed to notice so far.

STATIC IMAGES CAUSE SCREENBURN. This can be the black sidebars on 4x3 commercials projected on 16x9 HD screens. It can be PIP boxes that have no content in them – black is just as damaging as white, in the case of uneven phosphor aging. It can be the black top/bottom bars on a 2.35:1 movie being shown on a 1.78:1 (16x9, do the math) HD screen.

GREEN can cause screenburn even in a medium light internsity situation, because to have green, you need to have the ABSENCE of all color – black –
in the same areas of red and blue, where you want the green to appear. That means that under average intensity while a green logo will not cause too much of the green phosphors to be bombarded during the natural aging process of watching a big screen, too little – none! – of the red and blue phosphors in those same areas are being bombarded, at THEIR CRT faces. I have seen many older Mitsubishi big screens ruined by the fact that their owners left the MUTE graphic up there – always in green – and/or the ANT A or B graphic up there as well. These screenburns from green graphics show up as magenta, when against white. They are most visible in a fade to white, but are always there, and CANNOT be eradicated once they have been imprinted. The CRTs involved are ruined, and replacement of them is so expensive that the unit is already totalled once damaged. Compromises can be attained, like aging the rest of the screen to match, but this causes pre-aging of the entire set, and is definitely not the best option/remedy.


Screenburn has been specifically targetted and EXCLUDED from warranty coverage by the big screen manufacturers. The manufacturers who have had to pay big money for coverage on these isues in the past, are totally up on what kind of damage it does. This EXCLUSION is in every warranty for CRT and plasma based products. If your set is screenburned in any way, YOU’RE NOT COVERED under warranty.


The best remedy is transparent, absolutely medium-intensity letters or graphics, on ANY station logo. Another good practice is to make them appear in different places as the program plays out, like sometimes in one corner, sometimes in another, sometimes not quite all the way to the edge....

DISH satellite has a graphic while the receiver is off or on a music-only channel that floats gently around the screen, so that even at maximum intensity it will not be stationary, and thus not damaging. Of course this is not feasible during a program, but you get the picture.


Not having logos on at all times would be another way to help the consumer – not only in terms of guarding against screenburn, but lessening the distraction value of graphics that are up there while the content is playing. Having a logo be primarily absent, and only show up now and then, would be very welcome by the consumer.

During Knight Rider recently, a graphic in white text promoting “My father is better than your father” seemed to be up there during the entire show. It was very distracting.


On behalf of my fellow big screen watchers, please do something about this VERY important problem.


Yours Very Truly,

Robert P Jones


Professional big screen calibrator and service repair technician

Aka Mr Bob on the Internet

www.imageperfection.com

510-278-4247

LastButNotLeast what are your setting

For the last time, my settings are IRRELEVANT to you and anyone else. Really. So stop worrying about MY settings. Or anyone else's. PLEASE.

Hey guys, I'm looking for the Hitachi Service DIY Guilde.rtf file.. The links on the first page don't work.

Any help?

Thanks.

Also, does anyone have any useful links that would point me the right direction of performing maintenance things on this tv like cleaning the mirror or lens?

Would you think this is something an average DIYer could do or should I get a repairman to come do it for me?

Hey guys, I'm looking for the Hitachi Service DIY Guilde.rtf file.. The links on the first page don't work.

Any help?

Thanks.

Here you go. As a pdf, since can't upload rtf. Go figure.

so i got bored and i see what you mean by the faces were to dark i used those numbers as a base and experimented and i got my skin tone alot better by eye

Also, does anyone have any useful links that would point me the right direction of performing maintenance things on this tv like cleaning the mirror or lens?

Would you think this is something an average DIYer could do or should I get a repairman to come do it for me?

I'm sure the info is around. Be sure not to scratch the plastic lenses - that's permanent - or strip the aluminum off your front surface mirror, if it's that type, rather than glass front.

I would NOT trust a repairman to do that sort of thing. Haven't you heard the horror stories of how badly most repairmen screw up that kind of thing?

If you want great info on that sort of thing, I am available if you can't find what you're looking for.


Mr Bob

This is a letter I just emailed to an executive at NBC, after talking with him about this and having him request that I send it in, so he can run it up the flagpole and try and get something done, from his corner.

It came pouring out of me after trying to watch Friday night's Battlestar Galactica at my set's normal light level, and being prevented from doing so because of safety issues for my set, around SciFi HD's totally bright station logo. Let's hope a good response is forthcoming, and that it spreads industry wide...

Please feel free to copy and paste this letter anywhere you feel it will do the most good. Hearty support around it may get us somewhere.


Mr Bob



Ron –

To recap our phone conversation of earlier this morning, the SciFi logo on your SciFi channel is as we speak damaging countless phosphor based big screens out there in the world. Same goes for USA and many other logos, your channel is not alone. MSNBC, however, is one of the most well known logos that damage big screens. I travel all over the country in my big screen calibration work, and I have seen some REALLY bad screenburn out there.

Phosphor based big screens, which include ALL CRT based triple gun projection sets and ALL plasmas – and all CRT directviews, tho to a lesser degree – have a defined age and half-life on their phosphors. That much is a given, that’s simply nature of the beast with phosphors. Phosphors being bombarded with the scanning electron beam get excited and produce their light - that's how it works - and eventually they darken over time. Phosphors NOT being bombarded with electrons DON'T. They stay fresh and bright. Have you ever seen a security monitor whose camera has been set on the same doorway and left there for years? That doorway’s image gets so screenburned that you can see it even when the set is OFF. Go to any gaming arcade and you will see horrific examples of screenburn on the CRT sets where fixed graphics sit on the screen between playings, imprinting themseves hour after hour after hour...

“Screenburn” is defined as “uneven phospor aging”. ANY FIXED IMAGE left on a phosphor based set will eventually screenburn a set, unless it is exactly at half intensity. (In other words, average intensity between the darkest and brightest areas of the screen.) Logos are fixed images. They never move, they ALWAYS hit exactly the same area of the CRT screens, every minute of every day and night that they are up there. Eventually they take their toll, in uneven phosphor aging.

In viewing my HD recording of the latest episode of Battlestar Galactica this morning, from Friday night, it was apparent that I can no longer sit on the sidelines on this issue. I had to turn DOWN my contrast – overall light level – from its already relatively low setting on my 73” triple gun CRT based Mitsubishi big screen, to be able to watch the episode without damaging my 3 internal CRT faces, which are being projected onto my viewscreen. Your SciFI logo is at virtually 100% intensity, which was verified by comparing it to the white bow of the boat shown in one of the final scenes, where the president and her friend were in a dream sequence and the logo was at some points up against the white of the boat. The Scifi logo was completely invisible up against the white of the boat. This is an easily available test on your end.

BSG is of course shot very darkly, so my viewing pleasure was solidly compromised by having to turn down the overall light level of my set to be able to watch the show safely. Doctor Who had the same light intensity on their logos, and while you and I talked, it was plainly apparent that USA has damaging intensity on its logos as well, even brighter than the SciFi logo. Universal HD was much better, with a very non-intense logo. Haven’t looked at MSNBC lately, but if it’s the same as when I last saw it I would NEVER tune into that channel, for the news or for any other purpose. It would be death to my bigscreen. I have been hearing about that one for literally years. You are losing market share from videophiles and anyone else who values their big screen, all of whom feel the same as I do.


This is a problem that has been plaguing big screens since their inception, because the light levels on phosphor-based big screens have to be run very strongly, being that the CRT faces being projected onto the much bigger viewscreen are only a fraction of the size of the viewscreen itself. So it has to be run a lot harder than the screen of a directview, like a simple 19” monitor. Since HD on big screen has become so popular, it has become a giant issue across the entire industry, that needs to be addressed. You can find references to it all over the internet, yet nobody in power to do anything about it has seemed to notice so far.

FIXED IMAGES CAUSE SCREENBURN. This can be the black sidebars on 4x3 commercials projected on 16x9 HD screens. It can be PIP boxes that have no content in them – black is just as damaging as white, in the case of uneven phosphor aging. It can be the black top/bottom bars on a 2.35:1 movie being shown on a 1.78:1 (16x9, do the math) HD screen.

GREEN can cause screenburn even in a medium light internsity situation, because to have green, you need to have the ABSENCE of all color – black –
in the same areas of red and blue, where you want the green to appear. That means that under average intensity while a green logo will not cause too much of the green phosphors to be bombarded during the natural aging process of watching a big screen, too little – none! – of the red and blue phosphors in those same areas are being bombarded, at THEIR CRT faces. I have seen many older Mitsubishi big screens ruined by the fact that their owners left the MUTE graphic up there – always in green – and/or the ANT A or B graphic up there as well. These screenburns from green graphics show up as magenta, when against white. They are most visible in a fade to white, but are always there, and CANNOT be eradicated once they have been imprinted. The CRTs involved are ruined, and replacement of them is so expensive that the unit is already totalled once damaged. Compromises can be attained, like aging the rest of the screen to match, but this causes pre-aging of the entire set, and is definitely not the best option/remedy.


Screenburn has been specifically targetted and EXCLUDED from warranty coverage by the big screen manufacturers. The manufacturers who have had to pay big money for coverage on these isues in the past, are totally up on what kind of damage it does. This EXCLUSION is in every warranty for CRT and plasma based products. If your set is screenburned in any way, YOU’RE NOT COVERED under warranty.


The best remedy is transparent, absolutely medium-intensity letters or graphics, on ANY station logo. Another good practice is to make them appear in different places as the program plays out, like sometimes in one corner, sometimes in another, sometimes not quite all the way to the edge....

DISH satellite has a graphic while the receiver is off or on a music-only channel that floats gently around the screen, so that even at maximum intensity it will not be stationary, and thus not damaging. Of course this is not feasible during a program, but you get the picture.


Not having logos on at all times would be another way to help the consumer – not only in terms of guarding against screenburn, but lessening the distraction value of graphics that are up there while the content is playing. Having a logo be primarily absent, and only show up now and then, would be very welcome by the consumer.

During Knight Rider recently, a graphic in white text promoting “My father is better than your father” seemed to be up there during the entire show. It was very distracting.


On behalf of my fellow big screen watchers, please do something about this VERY important problem.


Yours Very Truly,

Robert P Jones


Professional big screen calibrator and service repair technician

Aka Mr Bob on the Internet

www.imageperfection.com

510-278-4247

Wow Mr. Bob...can't believe they even care enough to listen. He must be a secret CRT RP videophile.

Wow Mr. Bob...can't believe they even care enough to listen. He must be a secret CRT RP videophile.

He said he'd do what he can and would have people contact me. Nothing yet...

Came across a FREE calibration disc that looks quite complete (and works! I've used it). Download and instructions are here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=948496

So if you've wanted to do the color decoder tweak and haven't been able to because you don't have DVE or AVIA, get this and you're set.
Also has a bunch of other stuff, so get it even if you don't want to tweak anything (but if you don't, why are you here?).

Note: it does require an HD or Blu player.

Last night after the late NBA game tried out this pattern disk. Everyone was asleep and since I was still up took 20 min to give it a quick shot.

It works great with the PS3. after running the contrast and brightness patterns, I had to go on brightness to 61 :eek: the contranst did not change much, I think if anything went down to 22 (I think). Did not do anything with the color patterns, but it has the flashing one similar to what I had use before.

After 20 min or so watch some HBOHD and It looked really nice, I though it was maybe a little to bright but I guess I need to leave it like this.

As time permits I'll post some screen shots.

Thanks for the info Michael it works great.

Does anyone know if StatG1 and StatG2 have to be on? Do they perform a function that is necessary to the set operating properly or the picture being accurate. Since they can be turned off, I'm wondering if it's possible to calibrate with them off. This goes back to me wondering about turning all processing within the set off that isn't needed, and hopefully getting less noise and a more accurate picture in the process.

Does anyone know if StatG1 and StatG2 have to be on? Do they perform a function that is necessary to the set operating properly or the picture being accurate. Since they can be turned off, I'm wondering if it's possible to calibrate with them off. This goes back to me wondering about turning all processing within the set off that isn't needed, and hopefully getting less noise and a more accurate picture in the process.

I keep Statg1 at 00 anyway. STATG2 was at 03 but for no real reason. It didn't do much unless I had STATG1 turned on. Kinda worked in tandem I guess. So both are off and I see no real effect. Maybe because I haven't had 1 on in a long time. I will put in a HD DVD and see if there is less noise and check my Decoder ect... I will say that the HD fair on Dish looked basically the same except a little soft. I really think that was me though. I had a long day and was pretty tired.

I basically see your point on less processing the better but I would think at some point processing is neccesary. I wonder if you can't swing it to far the other way?:confused:

I basically see your point on less processing the better but I would think at some point processing is neccesary. I wonder if you can't swing it to far the other way?:confused:

You could buy a laser and just read the disc directly.;)

I am having the greatest time with my colorimeter. Bought an open box i1 for $110. So now I can tell you that STATG1 raises and lowers the entire gamma curve. STATG2 seems to flatten it out, but the difference is subtle and I haven't stared at the numbers long enough to be sure.
I HIGHLY recommend picking up one of these wonderful toys. You'll be able to see what COLORG really does, you can play with your grayscale a thousand different ways, and you will get NO sleep.:)

This is a before (dotted lines) and after (solid lines) of red, green, blue and average gamma readings after one weekend.

http://img176.imageshack.us/img176/7176/gammarf8.png

I have now DEFINITELY spent more time calibrating the set than watching it!:)

Michael

I keep Statg1 at 00 anyway. STATG2 was at 03 but for no real reason. It didn't do much unless I had STATG1 turned on. Kinda worked in tandem I guess. So both are off and I see no real effect. Maybe because I haven't had 1 on in a long time. I will put in a HD DVD and see if there is less noise and check my Decoder ect... I will say that the HD fair on Dish looked basically the same except a little soft. I really think that was me though. I had a long day and was pretty tired.

I basically see your point on less processing the better but I would think at some point processing is neccesary. I wonder if you can't swing it to far the other way?:confused:

My StatG1 is at 7 and my StatG2 is at 2 currently. When I turned them both off the picture was too washed out for me.

I know we need some processing but I would like to turn off all procesing we don't need, that's why I posed the question. If it's necessary, I'm all for it, but if not, I don't want it. I'm all about the less you do to a signal the better.

I HIGHLY recommend picking up one of these wonderful toys. You'll be able to see what COLORG really does, you can play with your grayscale a thousand different ways, and you will get NO sleep.:)
Michael

The funny thing is, I have had one I borrowed from a buddy for about two months and haven't used it. I think I may break it out this week and get even more obsessive. :)

Last night after the late NBA game tried out this pattern disk. Everyone was asleep and since I was still up took 20 min to give it a quick shot.

It works great with the PS3. after running the contrast and brightness patterns, I had to go on brightness to 61 :eek: the contranst did not change much, I think if anything went down to 22 (I think). Did not do anything with the color patterns, but it has the flashing one similar to what I had use before.

After 20 min or so watch some HBOHD and It looked really nice, I though it was maybe a little to bright but I guess I need to leave it like this.

As time permits I'll post some screen shots.

Thanks for the info Michael it works great.



In my cals I only use test discs to get it close, on Brightness. After that I use either test scenes from Starship Troopers for DVD, or a smattering of test channels on HD, or scenes from HD discs.

Dark scenes are what is needed to set your Br. Dark scenes that are all dark, AND dark scenes that have bright white highlights. Your setting has to work for both.

Br should be increased till you see full shadow detail in dark areas, increased till you get haze and the blacks are no longer clamping to black correctly - they are gray - then reduced back again till the blacks clamp to black properly again and haze in dark areas disappears. Too much and you have haze in what should be black areas. Too little and you struggle to see shadow detail, and it's very fatiguing. Ideal and you see shadow detail with no problems and your blacks are clamping to black correctly, and there is no haziness anywhere.

On VE it was the pluge pattern plus the pattern after it, with the 3 stripes and the all white right side. ISF's Jim Doolittle says of VE, when the third stripe on the left side of the second pattern - the one after the classic pluge pattern - is just barely visible, that's the right setting. It is often very different from how the disc describes how to set the Br via the classic pluge pattern - the one before it - and both patterns are still subject to lots of variability in human interpretation.

The capacity of the display to show detail in dark areas while being bombarded with strong competing white levels in the pic also, varies with the quality of the display. And of course with how clean the internal optics are. Professional grade CRT ceiling mount front pjs do a lot better job than consumer grade CRT RPTVs, and some RPTV designs do a lot better job than others.

That's why I ultimately surf HD channels to set the internal sm Br, using scenes with both of these sets of characteristics, and I welcome input from its owner along the way, pointing out what to look for with each scene. I listen very closely to where he tells me looks best to him. Definitions of how it "should be" can vary widely, subject to human interpretation.

When the MOST HD channels/scenes work, then both the owner and myself know it's set the best it can be, internally, which of course is only recalibrating the midpoint of the Br in User anyway. Once I get the midpoint right, that's still not the whole story.

It will still take some goal-tending in User to get it right on all channels, from then on.

I run my 73" Mit's br anywhere between 40-45, and find that different channels require different settings. NTSC may have been all over the map on its channels in the past around color/tint and luminance levels, but ATSC is not perfect either.

Every time I tune in on the Tonight Show with Jay Leno, I take my Br down a few clicks for the duration of the show, because the background of his desk and chair behind him during his stand up monologue should NOT be readily visible. They should be way in the background, very dim lighting wise, yet the stage lighting NBC uses on his show makes it foreground at regular Br settings. This compromises the depth perception potentials of seeing him standing very forward on the stage during his monologue, and impacts the rest of the show as well.


Mr Bob

You could buy a laser and just read the disc directly.;)

I am having the greatest time with my colorimeter. Bought an open box i1 for $110. So now I can tell you that STATG1 raises and lowers the entire gamma curve. STATG2 seems to flatten it out, but the difference is subtle and I haven't stared at the numbers long enough to be sure.
I HIGHLY recommend picking up one of these wonderful toys. You'll be able to see what COLORG really does, you can play with your grayscale a thousand different ways, and you will get NO sleep.:)

This is a before (dotted lines) and after (solid lines) of red, green, blue and average gamma readings after one weekend.

http://img176.imageshack.us/img176/7176/gammarf8.png

I have now DEFINITELY spent more time calibrating the set than watching it!:)

Michael

I dont know what all the lines on that graph mean but I'm interested. Is there some kind of info that goes with it. Otherwise its a really cool toy that I will find a million ways to use and screw up my settings? Heck I want it if it can dial in my grayscale to a T and figure out what setting is best to use and not use.

Let me know what you find on the Statg settings as I am way different on my settings than others.

I dont know what all the lines on that graph mean but I'm interested. Is there some kind of info that goes with it. Otherwise its a really cool toy that I will find a million ways to use and screw up my settings? Heck I want it if it can dial in my grayscale to a T and figure out what setting is best to use and not use.

http://www.curtpalme.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10457

In my cals I only use test discs to get it close, on Brightness. After that I use either test scenes from Starship Troopers for DVD, or a smattering of test channels on HD, or scenes from HD discs.

Dark scenes are what is needed to set your Br. Dark scenes that are all dark, AND dark scenes that have bright white highlights. Your setting has to work for both.

Br should be increased till you see full shadow detail in dark areas, increased till you get haze and the blacks are no longer clamping to black correctly - they are gray - then reduced back again till the blacks clamp to black properly again and haze in dark areas disappears. Too much and you have haze in what should be black areas. Too little and you struggle to see shadow detail, and it's very fatiguing. Ideal and you see shadow detail with no problems and your blacks are clamping to black correctly, and there is no haziness anywhere.


Mr Bob

After reading the way to calibrate Brightness and Contrast that you suggest, went back and used different material and media for dark scenes, now the outcome is contrast @ 35 and brightness @ 55.

I believe, and this is just with my very unreliable eyes, that there is no blooming of whites and enough detail on darks. I haven't done color decoding again, I'm planning on using the pattern disk that Michael recommended for this. I have used both AVIA and DVE for color decoding in the past via 1080i upconvert via HDMI and SD through Svideo. Based on the last run my decoding was close but not spot on, although as discussed before this was before I changed APRTR back to 00. I'll tried rerunning color decoding through HDMI true blu ray HD and see if anything changes.

Hey everyone. Been a while since I checked in here. My 51F59 is almost two years old and still working great. No issues except the occasional HDMI freakout. Very happy with this TV.


Got a question. What is everyone using to clean their screen? I have always just used water and a microfiber cloth, but after two years I think it needs a little something more. I can see some streaks / smudges that the water itself isnt taking off.

Does anyone have any success with a cleaning solution? What solutions have you used on your screen that have proven to be safe? The $29 bottle of Monster Screen Cleaner is all I see in stores.

I have searched, but noone every says exactly what they use? Any help greatly appreciated.

Hey everyone. Been a while since I checked in here. My 51F59 is almost two years old and still working great. No issues except the occasional HDMI freakout. Very happy with this TV.


Got a question. What is everyone using to clean their screen? I have always just used water and a microfiber cloth, but after two years I think it needs a little something more. I can see some streaks / smudges that the water itself isnt taking off.

Does anyone have any success with a cleaning solution? What solutions have you used on your screen that have proven to be safe? The $29 bottle of Monster Screen Cleaner is all I see in stores.

I have searched, but noone every says exactly what they use? Any help greatly appreciated.

Chitown, I use Glass Cleaner with no ammonia & paper towels. It works very well. Then every other day I pass a micro-fiber cloth across the screen.

Thanks BFJ. Are you the same BFJ from the sports gameing sites?

Hi all, I've had my Hitachi for about 18 months now and it's been great (especially after I tweaked my settings a bit thanks to this thread:)). Recently, though, I've noticed a lot more jaggies than usual when I'm playing video games and watching HD content. Any idea what could be causing this and is there any way to fix it?

Thanks BFJ. Are you the same BFJ from the sports gameing sites?

bigfnjoe96 would be me.... :D

bigfnjoe96 would be me.... :D


Awesome. Even the virtual world is getting small these days. lol

Hey everyone. Been a while since I checked in here. My 51F59 is almost two years old and still working great. No issues except the occasional HDMI freakout. Very happy with this TV.


Got a question. What is everyone using to clean their screen? I have always just used water and a microfiber cloth, but after two years I think it needs a little something more. I can see some streaks / smudges that the water itself isnt taking off.

Does anyone have any success with a cleaning solution? What solutions have you used on your screen that have proven to be safe? The $29 bottle of Monster Screen Cleaner is all I see in stores.

I have searched, but noone every says exactly what they use? Any help greatly appreciated.


My Mit is 1.5 years old and the guys who moved it in let some fingerprints happen at the edges. I didn't want to touch it, so I lived with it for all this time. Screen flawless everywhere else.

In that time it became flat at those prints, whereas it used to be rather glossy. Figured some dust had clung to the oil in those prints.

So the other day I took a towel and lightly buffed those prints, and presto! They disappeared. So maybe powder and light towel buffing might assist in removing skin grease?


Mr Bob

My Mit is 1.5 years old and the guys who moved it in let some fingerprints happen at the edges. I didn't want to touch it, so I lived with it for all this time. Screen flawless everywhere else.

In that time it became flat at those prints, whereas it used to be rather glossy. Figured some dust had clung to the oil in those prints.

So the other day I took a towel and lightly buffed those prints, and presto! They disappeared. So maybe powder and light towel buffing might assist in removing skin grease?


Mr Bob

I also have fingerprints, but they're more the size of a two year old's. :) When you say towel, do you mean a towel or a paper towel.

I also have fingerprints, but they're more the size of a two year old's. :) When you say towel, do you mean a towel or a paper towel.


In this case a fluffy clean dry bathtowel.

What is everyone doing with Youtg. Mine was at 01 but I'm trying Lordclouds method of turning things off. So I set it at 00 and did my decoder again. Whites are not as bright but less washout. ?????

This is a letter I just emailed to an executive at NBC, after talking with him about this and having him request that I send it in, so he can run it up the flagpole and try and get something done, from his corner.

It came pouring out of me after trying to watch Friday night's Battlestar Galactica at my set's normal light level, and being prevented from doing so because of safety issues for my set, around SciFi HD's totally bright station logo. Let's hope a good response is forthcoming, and that it spreads industry wide...

Please feel free to copy and paste this letter anywhere you feel it will do the most good. Hearty support around it may get us somewhere.


Mr Bob



Ron –

To recap our phone conversation of earlier this morning, the SciFi logo on your SciFi channel is as we speak damaging countless phosphor based big screens out there in the world...


I want to thank both Ron and Felix at NBC for listening to me on this issue and requesting this letter.

If any of you watched BSG this weekend, you saw that NBC had INDEED lowered the light level of their SciFi logo to halfway! It was/is no longer a threat to my CRT based 73" Mit, and I was able to keep my overall contrast at normal light level! Checked out USA and MSNBC - no such luck.

But SciFi, at least when playing BSG, is now exactly where it needs to be to save all the CRTs out in the world - half-intensity!


Thanks again, Ron and Felix.

Again, if anybody wants to reprint this letter somewhere they think will do some good, please feel free to. Just credit me for writing it, if you would -


Mr Bob

What is everyone doing with Youtg. Mine was at 01 but I'm trying Lordclouds method of turning things off. So I set it at 00 and did my decoder again. Whites are not as bright but less washout. ?????

Mine was set & is still set @ 00 when Kevin Miller Calibrated my set with Sub-Bright @ 7F(DEFAULT) & Sub-Contrast @ 15 (DEFAULT)

With DGAIN10 @ 06 & DGAIN20 @ 00

What is everyone doing with Youtg. Mine was at 01 but I'm trying Lordclouds method of turning things off. So I set it at 00 and did my decoder again. Whites are not as bright but less washout. ?????

Of course mine is still set to 00, although I don't have an issue with bright whites at all. You can also adjust StatG2 to change how bright the whites are. Of course it only matters if you have StatG1 in the loop.

Of course mine is still set to 00, although I don't have an issue with bright whites at all. You can also adjust StatG2 to change how bright the whites are. Of course it only matters if you have StatG1 in the loop.

Well I'm playing around with some old settings. SRTGA is now at 06 for now. I still have STATG1@00 and STATG2@00. To be honest STATg1 at 06-07 looks almost the same as 00 to me.

I had to Decode my colors again after I changed YOUTG to 00. The bottom line is I liked YOUTG @01 better so I changed it back and Decoded the colors again. The white walls in a home scene on one of those DIY channels looked dull compared to 01. Even skin tones didn't look quite as good.

With that said I am going to make some more adjustment and try it back to 00 again.

i think there should be a support group out there for people that adjust there tv to much. I would be the first person to join "hi my name is Jeremy"

Well I'm playing around with some old settings. SRTGA is now at 06 for now. I still have STATG1@00 and STATG2@00. To be honest STATg1 at 06-07 looks almost the same as 00 to me.

I had to Decode my colors again after I changed YOUTG to 00. The bottom line is I liked YOUTG @01 better so I changed it back and Decoded the colors again. The white walls in a home scene on one of those DIY channels looked dull compared to 01. Even skin tones didn't look quite as good.

With that said I am going to make some more adjustment and try it back to 00 again.

StatG1 at 00 and 07 looked very much alike to me as well. Until I looked a little closer. I put on a scene with black and color in it and noticed that with StatG1 at 00, the picture was washed out. Not by a huge amount, but noticeable. I turned it back to 07 and there came by crisp blacks again.

I haven't tried to calibrate with YOUTG on as the only thing it does is change the gamma curve I believe, but not how I want it. I want a gamma bump right above black. Skin tones look perfect for me and I would defintely not say anything was dull looking. But our sets are different of course as is our eyes and how we percieve what we see.

I don't dare change anything that affects the "detail control". Right now, it's about as perfect as I can get it, which is basically perfect. My pic is smooth but detailed and not lacking in sharpness at all. I'm still working on those screenshots.

i think there should be a support group out there for people that adjust there tv to much. I would be the first person to join "hi my name is Jeremy"

And I'm a tweakaholic..

OK I put YOUTG@00. I then adjusted the decoder. I then went back and settled on STATG1@06 and STATG2@01. If I'm not wrong the lower you go on STATG2 the brighter the whites. The reason I settled on STATG1@06 is because I could not get my decoder to resolve some very minor adjustments in blue at 07. I had sub bright@72. I moved that to 79. Guess thats it. Looks good but I want to look at it for a while longer before I make my final decision on YOUTG.

I see I must break away from my therapy for sleep depravation and bleeding eyeballs (no, Jeremy, there is NO SUCH THING as too much tweaking) to jump back in.

I highly recommend picking up an Eye-One (<$150) and getting the answers to these questions yourself, but here's some info that, I hope, will help more than confuse.

You're looking at a graph of gamma; red, green and blue are, well, red, green and blue. Yellow is the "running" average of R, G and B; light blue is the "overall" average, and white is the ideal target.

First graph is STATG1=00. This will be my "default."

http://img382.imageshack.us/img382/6157/statg100vy7.jpg

Changing STATG1 to 01 does this:

http://img378.imageshack.us/img378/1528/statg101es0.jpg

Yup, pretty dramatic.

STATG1 to 04:

http://img370.imageshack.us/img370/4004/statg104if9.jpg

As you might expect, STATG1 = 05:

http://img375.imageshack.us/img375/5558/statg105be5.jpg

And so on, down (literally) to 07.

With STATG1 = 04 (above), changing STATG2 to 01 gives this:

http://img378.imageshack.us/img378/7340/statg201lw3.jpg

STATG2 = 02:

http://img382.imageshack.us/img382/8250/statg202tl6.jpg

STATG2 = 03:

http://img378.imageshack.us/img378/8475/statg203es9.jpg

Taking that and changing YOUTG to 01 yields:

http://img60.imageshack.us/img60/3652/statg201youtg01pa1.jpg

Yikes, indeed. Going back to the "default" and changing COLORG to 01:

http://img397.imageshack.us/img397/9897/colorg01hd9.jpg

And COLORG to 03 (trust me, 02 is in between :)):

http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/2392/colorg03xj8.jpg

And since I just found out about DGAIN10 and DGAIN20 a few minutes ago, I have no idea what they do, but I plan to find out.

But first, I may get some sleep. Or find out what the wife was mumbling about divorce or homicide or something.

Michael

Wow Michael, very impressive when one can see it graphically and not just subjectively guessing.

I would very much like to have one of these toys, however better judgement tells me that I will be using it very little... Once she kicks me out of the house she keeps ALL the toys...

I'll get rid of her for a couple of day (they like SPAS) so I can have unlimited play time, that would be the ultimate plan if I get one of this.

Keep it coming mike, that gives the rest of us an insight of how the different settings behave.

Mike, thanks for those graphs. Now, I'd stay away from anything that is Dynamic, since it is a floating target.

If I understand this correct then whatever lines up more closely with white is what we want. Is that wrong? Without an understanding of what all the numbers mean I cant tell whats best. I know that we all pretty much decided Colorg01 was not what we want. On this graph it look like it is close to the ideal range. I bet I'm just not getting this??????

If I understand this correct then whatever lines up more closely with white is what we want. Is that wrong? Without an understanding of what all the numbers mean I cant tell whats best. I know that we all pretty much decided Colorg01 was not what we want. On this graph it look like it is close to the ideal range. I bet I'm just not getting this??????

There's a lot to "get," that's what makes it complicated (and fun).
COLORG actually moves the secondary colors (cyan, magenta, yellow), I just haven't had time to post those graphs (or change these to something that downloads faster; sorry.:o). I am currently using COLORG at 03 because it gets me the best yellows I've ever had.
Yes, my results are pretty close to what you want (before and after graphs to follow, too; looks like I have my work cut out for me.;)).
Even without a colorimeter, it pays to read Kal's Greyscale Calibration for Dummies (http://www.curtpalme.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10457). If nothing else, these (and hopefully other's [hello out there, anyone?]) graphs will make more sense and you'll have a better idea of what you're changing.
But this really has been a project and, since you need a dark room, and the sun doesn't set until fairly late, I really have lost a lot of sleep. So I'll probably have to catch up first, then the graphs get done.
Stay tuned.
Michael

There's a lot to "get," that's what makes it complicated (and fun).
COLORG actually moves the secondary colors (cyan, magenta, yellow), I just haven't had time to post those graphs (or change these to something that downloads faster; sorry.:o). I am currently using COLORG at 03 because it gets me the best yellows I've ever had.
Yes, my results are pretty close to what you want (before and after graphs to follow, too; looks like I have my work cut out for me.;)).
Even without a colorimeter, it pays to read Kal's Greyscale Calibration for Dummies (http://www.curtpalme.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10457). If nothing else, these (and hopefully other's [hello out there, anyone?]) graphs will make more sense and you'll have a better idea of what you're changing.
But this really has been a project and, since you need a dark room, and the sun doesn't set until fairly late, I really have lost a lot of sleep. So I'll probably have to catch up first, then the graphs get done.
Stay tuned.
Michael

Well this changes a lot. I cant see me changing Colorg from 00 but there it is on the graphs. I guess I'm wondering if the data your getting is translating to better PQ. I simply cant go back to red push..I cant...I wont:mad:

Just kidding! I will certainly get one in a couple of months. Cant right now. Pls keep us posted.

Mike, thanks for those graphs. Now, I'd stay away from anything that is Dynamic, since it is a floating target.

It's ALL dynamic! It's amazing, but changing ANYTHING affects everything else. Which is why you have to go back and forth a million times with every adjustment.
Very cool to watch, actually.

Well this changes a lot. I cant see me changing Colorg from 00 but there it is on the graphs. I guess I'm wondering if the data your getting is translating to better PQ. I simply cant go back to red push..I cant...I wont:mad:

Just kidding! I will certainly get one in a couple of months. Cant right now. Pls keep us posted.

It's not red push. You're ELIMINATING red push (okay, reducing it, at least). Which is what the graphs show.

And just as I thought I might be done, Kal adds a primary/secondary color chapter. Fortunately, all I needed to do was change color from 50% to 51% and tint from 0 to -1.
For now, anyway.:D

So I'll just skip right to the punch line (since I'm getting punchy, anyway).

Here's where I am right now:

http://img367.imageshack.us/img367/4075/gammanl3.jpg

http://img367.imageshack.us/img367/4931/ciear3.jpg

And yes, the picture looks pretty darn good, too.:)

Goodnight all, and have a great holiday weekend.

Michael

What is this calibration for Micheal? medium or standard, I read that everything is tied to High.

I've changed mine on medium at one time but I went back to standard, medium was bluish somehow, even if color decoding was right.

BTW the graphs look great, I can just imagine how your tv looks, great job and thank you for sharing your findings.

Micheal -

Guy Kuo wrote an amazing essay over at the SPot on this topic, and I'll try to do it just a tiny mite of justice here -


Color decoding is not grayscale. Grayscale is for the b/w info only, when there is no color in the pattern being used, and color decoding only exists when there are colors on the screen - ie, no b/w gets worked on in color decoding realignment. Can't realign color decoding with a b/w picture, at all. Can't realign grayscale with any pattern with color present all over the screen, be they primary or secondary/corollary colors. Grayscale can only be done in b/w or on b/w portions of the screen.

These alignments are 2 separate and distinct animals - even tho they CAN be interactive with each other, which sweetens the pot even further. Has to be tested for, and of course you are up to your eyeballs - half-mast tho they must be by now - already - in testing for stuff!

:eek:

As I understand it, your gear there is a color analyzer. Which does strictly grayscale. I have never seen a color analyzer do anything with color decoding.

As such we can only chart the DIFFERENCES the color decoding settings MAKE, in how stable/linear the grayscale STAYs, in response to changes in color decoding. We can't do color decoding alignments with color analyzers, only grayscale alignments.

Would you be kind enough to delineate exactly which of the registers you are mentioning are for grayscale, and which are for color decoding? As I understand it, the ColorG is strictly for color decoding. So is any version of the classic basic decoding registers for red and green: R-YR, R-YB, G-YR and G-YB. And, of course, master color and tint - usually aligned on B - which are the overall master decoding registers and which affect each of the R, G and B colors identically, allowing the discreet color registers of R and G to be manipulated separately from the master (B) color and tint, and becomeing simply add-ons to master color and tint (aligned on B only, but affecting all 3 colors equally).

Others seem to affect grayscale greatly.

It would be good to have them each in their own lists, separately, as to what they affect.

AFTER you get some sleep, of course...

;)


Mr Bob

Still working on getting good photos of my set that are representative of what I see. I got this one, but......it's taken with a 7MP Kodak, but the memory card was put in my Treo, and to send it, it had to be converted to 648 by 480. So this isn't it in it's full res, I need to put my memory card in my girlfriend's laptop for that, which I'll do later. But I wanted to post this one at least. It still doesn't look as good as my set of course. More to come. Hopefully.

X-Men 2 Upscaled to 1080i via Samsung BD P1200

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a100/lordcloud/x3.jpg

Michael,

Well I mispoke. Colorg@01+ is for reducing red push. Your graph does show that. We found though that true linear color could only be had with Colorg off...didn't we? Sorta of Lordclouds turn everything off idea. It was only after I turned it off that I could get really dynamic reds and the right flesh tones. Of course that took a lot of work with the Decoder and other tweaks.
Well you have definetly opened up another can of worms for us to investigate. Good! I cant wait to see what all this data ends up telling us.

I began reading the curt palme article but haven't finished it.

Michael,

Well I mispoke. Colorg@01+ is for reducing red push. Your graph does show that. We found though that true linear color could only be had with Colorg off...didn't we? Sorta of Lordclouds turn everything off idea. It was only after I turned it off that I could get really dynamic reds and the right flesh tones. Of course that took a lot of work with the Decoder and other tweaks.
Well you have definetly opened up another can of worms for us to investigate. Good! I cant wait to see what all this data ends up telling us.

I began reading the curt palme article but haven't finished it.

I turned my ColorG to 3 as an experiment, it doesn't make a huge difference, but it does make a difference...........and I want to say for the better. But further investigation is required.

Here's one of Assasins Creed, still not a good indicator of what it looks like. Damn it's hard to get good photos off these things. I need to get a better camera.

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a100/lordcloud/AssasinsCreed.jpg

As I understand it, your gear there is a color analyzer. Which does strictly grayscale. I have never seen a color analyzer do anything with color decoding.
Mr Bob

That puts it in the oxymoron category with "jumbo shrimp," no?

Probably 99% of what I have done so far has been strictly grayscale (or, since I'm following Kal's guide, greyscale, which I've always preferred, anyway). Until the very recent addition of the primary/secondary chapter, which suggests that nothing much can be done about primaries anyway, the CEI graph was used to focus on the deltaE of the sampled points:

http://img518.imageshack.us/img518/1458/ciene7.jpg

The only service menu change I checked for color was COLORG, for obvious reasons. The difference is slight (not your imagination, lordcloud), but 01 and 02 are "off" magenta much more than 00 and 03. The difference between 00 and 03 is very slight indeed, perhaps not even statistically significant, so pick one and go with it.

The settings that one uses when adjusting the grayscale are the white balance standard settings. I found it easier to scroll up from RGBOUT to the DRV's and CUT's; another tremendous advantage is that the changes are "live." The color registers are, as you would expect, not part of this equation. It amazed me every time to see how changing one register can dramatically alter everything else.

When I did start the color chapter, I was extremely pleased that the procedure for setting color and tint, using a completely different technique than the color bars, resulted in extremely close settings (one click difference on each). So I think we've all headed in the right direction as far as color settings go.

However, as you've pointed out before, there is no good way to set grayscale by eye. And even accepting the limitations of my relatively cheap instrument, I think I'm worlds closer to where it "should" be.

Which reminds me about the before and after I'm supposed to be working on. Hang in there, I'll get to it.

Michael

For these "befores," I took the settings I had been using after several rounds of calibration and changed them all back to the factory out of the box settings. The results of that are actually not too bad, though you can still see a dramatic difference in many areas.

The settings we've discussed most are COLORG 03, SRTGA 00, STATG1 00, STATG2 03, YOUTG 00. And, of course, I have monkeyed with the screen pots on the focus block, which is ill-advised unless, like me, you accidentally changed it during a regular focus session (oops!).

Using an Eye-One colorimeter and ColorHCFR software on a G3 iBook running XP under Virtual PC. Same key as before: red, green and blue are R, B, and G; yellow is the average of R, B, and G; white is the target line.

luminance, before:

http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/9591/oobluminancenb9.jpg

luminance, after:

http://img412.imageshack.us/img412/9607/nowluminancead0.jpg

gamma, before:

http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/9409/oobgammamq0.jpg

gamma, after:

http://img359.imageshack.us/img359/285/nowgammagn0.jpg

RGB, before:

http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/2483/oobrgbyr9.jpg

RGB, after (lower graph is deltaE, which was off the charts on the before [under 10 is good, under 3 is great]):

http://img359.imageshack.us/img359/9550/nowrgbrn7.jpg

color temp, before (sorry, Kal, I know you hate this one, but it does show a dramatic change, too):

http://img412.imageshack.us/img412/5738/oobtempcs1.jpg

color temp, after:

http://img359.imageshack.us/img359/6093/nowtempyw7.jpg

CIE before:

http://img412.imageshack.us/img412/2509/oobciedg5.jpg

CIE after:

http://img359.imageshack.us/img359/3116/nowcierq7.jpg

Take $150 from your rebate check and get one of these colorimeters. Unless, of course, you have a real life, a family, or a need for sleep.

Michael

man that is amazing! I could bombard you with questions but I know you have been putting in some time on this. I need to get one, and a tripod ect...Until I do I will leave you with a couple of questions!

1. Youtg is represnted in which graph?
2. Statg1 & 2. What does the magic crystal ball say about them?
3. SRTGA shouldn't be effected, should it? It has nothing to do with grayscale.

Oh man do I need to get one of these to fix my grayscale once and for all!!!

The craziest thing is that I actually know what some of those lines mean and why they are where they are. Toto...Toto...where are we???

1. Youtg is represnted in which graph?
2. Statg1 & 2. What does the magic crystal ball say about them?
3. SRTGA shouldn't be effected, should it? It has nothing to do with grayscale.


Post 2135 answers questions about YOUTG, etc.

I posted my settings just for reference, since, if I hadn't, a million people would have asked for them. Right, totally irrelevant, which I'll keep saying. Which is why I didn't even bother with my white balance settings, which are the only ones that really matter for this.

Got an open box i1 from MacMall for <$110. You can download the software (ColorHCFR) and play with it for free. It's GNU open source. Very cool, indeed.

Please get one. I'd lend mine out but then I'd be sitting around my family room with nothing to do.

Yea I see the Youtg graph now. Good thing I went thru the trouble of changing it back to 00 and adjusting from there. I will get one next month. That is after I have made a little xtra money so my wife wont argue.

I haven't been here in a while... I stop back in and you guys are now posting color analysis charts! Now that is what I call zeroing in your tv!

Anyhow, I thought I'd report on my CRT lens cleaning experience. End of April my 51F59 went out of 1 yr factory warranty so time was nearing to check the crt lenses for dust build-up. Finally got around to it yesterday after going to Ace Hardware and buying a can of Sprayway foaming glass cleaner and some Kleenex brand extra soft paper towels for the job. Have to admit it was unnerving taking the screen off, but it went okay. The lenses look clean until I took a flashlight and shined on them from an angle, then a thin layer of dust was apparent. I had to hit them each with the Sprayway about three times-- spray, wait ten seconds (per Mr. Bob's recommendation), wipe gently yet thoroughly. Repeat two more times on each because for some reason I kept getting what appeared to be some minor smudges. The final wipe I used a 12" x 12" lint free lens cloth obtained from my Optometrist's office, the kind intended to be used on AR coated plastic eyeglass lenses and designed not to scratch the fragile AR coating. That helped remove some lint left on the lenses from the paper towels. I then covered each lens barrel with aluminum foil to prevent dust settling on them while I spent time working on cleaning the mirror. Upon examining the mirror, I immediatley noticed some smudges near one of the MF sensors-- a gift from the factory I suppose. Other than that the mirror looked clean even under angled flashlight beam. Went ahead and used Sprayway and the paper towels on the mirror, then finished blew it off with shots from one of those canned air dusters used on computer equipment etc., then final wipe down with the optometric lens cloth. I examined the inside of the screen itself and it appeared perfectly clean so I left it alone.

I can notice some improvement in picture fidelity, mainly an apparent slight improvement in transparency-- sort of like that Claritan Clear anti-histamine commercial but not as dramatic of a difference-- just enough to notice though.

I think I'll do this yearly.

One thing I noticed, and am wondering if is normal. When I was shining the flashlight on the crt lenses after all cleaning, there appeared to be some slight smudges or some form of slight haze that had to be on the backside of the lens on one of the lenses. Sort of like a fingerprint that someone tried to wipe off but didn't get it all the way. Is it possible to clean the backside of the crt lens? I was afraid to remove the lens barrel and just left it alone.

I haven't been here in a while... I stop back in and you guys are now posting color analysis charts! Now that is what I call zeroing in your tv!

Anyhow, I thought I'd report on my CRT lens cleaning experience. End of April my 51F59 went out of 1 yr factory warranty so time was nearing to check the crt lenses for dust build-up. Finally got around to it yesterday after going to Ace Hardware and buying a can of Sprayway foaming glass cleaner and some Kleenex brand extra soft paper towels for the job. Have to admit it was unnerving taking the screen off, but it went okay. The lenses look clean until I took a flashlight and shined on them from an angle, then a thin layer of dust was apparent. I had to hit them each with the Sprayway about three times-- spray, wait ten seconds (per Mr. Bob's recommendation), wipe gently yet thoroughly. Repeat two more times on each because for some reason I kept getting what appeared to be some minor smudges. The final wipe I used a 12" x 12" lint free lens cloth obtained from my Optometrist's office, the kind intended to be used on AR coated plastic eyeglass lenses and designed not to scratch the fragile AR coating. That helped remove some lint left on the lenses from the paper towels. I then covered each lens barrel with aluminum foil to prevent dust settling on them while I spent time working on cleaning the mirror. Upon examining the mirror, I immediatley noticed some smudges near one of the MF sensors-- a gift from the factory I suppose. Other than that the mirror looked clean even under angled flashlight beam. Went ahead and used Sprayway and the paper towels on the mirror, then finished blew it off with shots from one of those canned air dusters used on computer equipment etc., then final wipe down with the optometric lens cloth. I examined the inside of the screen itself and it appeared perfectly clean so I left it alone.

I can notice some improvement in picture fidelity, mainly an apparent slight improvement in transparency-- sort of like that Claritan Clear anti-histamine commercial but not as dramatic of a difference-- just enough to notice though.

I think I'll do this yearly.

One thing I noticed, and am wondering if is normal. When I was shining the flashlight on the crt lenses after all cleaning, there appeared to be some slight smudges or some form of slight haze that had to be on the backside of the lens on one of the lenses. Sort of like a fingerprint that someone tried to wipe off but didn't get it all the way. Is it possible to clean the backside of the crt lens? I was afraid to remove the lens barrel and just left it alone.

That "thin layer of dust" contained many years of dust and soot and gritty particulates, that are being constantly attracted onto your lens tops with each minute the set is on and powered up. The 30KV used by the system turns your optics into powerful dust magnets, literally pulling the dust out of the air and onto the lens tops, at all times it's powered up.

As such, that "thin" layer of dust was actually very thick, as these things go. And loaded with gritty particulates. That's why special measures - like NEVER RUB BACK AND FORTH - are required when dealing with the lens tops, to keep them safe from instantaneous, permanent and irrevocable damage, when cleaning them. A "thin" layer is what you have for the first 6 months to a year. After that, it's begun to getting glopped on there, and nothing but a good WET method is safe for removing them.

All Hit lenses are removable, but do it one at a time and complete it and reinstall it before you go to the next, as each has its own individual focus setting, for its own CRT.

The lens rears typically need cleaning along with the CRT coolant covers for each color, which is 6 additional surfaces that get cleaned when you do the "deeper optics".

Each lens stack contains around 4 lenses all told. I don't clean each one of them because it would entail breaking each lens stack/tube open, and they don't need it anyway. They don't attract a MATTING of dust, like the lens tops - and sometimes bottoms - do. Individual dust particles are insignificant, because everything is out of focus at that part of the light path anyway, so if you see little individual bits of dust in there in the deeper lenses, don't worry about it. A smudge is different, it may be worthwhile to go in if that's what you're after.

4 screws hold each lens in place. They are the CLOSEST ones to the lens. DON'T remove any other screws in there, you'll release coolant which will fall onto your boards underneath, and start eating away at them.


There are more ways to test whether you need to actually remove the lenses or not. But if they are dirty down inside at the coolant covers, the difference you will be making in your viewing pleasure will be limited to halfway, until you do get them clean. The entire light path needs to be crystal clear, like it was when it was new.


Mr Bob


PS -

Here's a 7 year old Pioneer, same day, before and after optics cleaning. Forgive the pix for being reversed, they were scanned by my roomie for me and he got one mirror imaged of the other, by mistake.

But even so, the message is clear. The need for optics cleaning when there's 30KV around is absolutely inescapable.

Before -

http://img174.imageshack.us/img174/7316/opticsbeforeaq0.jpg[/URL]

After -

http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/1382/opticsafterzt4.jpg[/URL]

These are pics using my HTPC (built mostly of spare parts) via HDMI at 1080I on my Hitachi 57F710A. More here (http://www.flickr.com/photos/14659644@N08/sets/72157605286960473/). Still loving this set.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2249/2527986091_631a108aee_b.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3006/2528516788_c85bccacd2_b.jpg
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2307/2528512194_348b30dfe6_b.jpg

One thing I noticed, and am wondering if is normal. When I was shining the flashlight on the crt lenses after all cleaning, there appeared to be some slight smudges or some form of slight haze that had to be on the backside of the lens on one of the lenses. Sort of like a fingerprint that someone tried to wipe off but didn't get it all the way. Is it possible to clean the backside of the crt lens? I was afraid to remove the lens barrel and just left it alone.

As Mr.Bob was noting, you really should open it back up and take off each lens barrel, one at time. Clean the bottom of the lens, and clean out the coolant cups. I've found the remains of little critters sitting in the bottom of the cups before. Not to mention the amount of dust. There are no seals between the barrels and coolant cups to prevent dust and insects from entering. Just be sure to ONLY remove the 4 screws that hold in each lens assembly, NOT the ones for the coolant tank.

So I'll just skip right to the punch line (since I'm getting punchy, anyway).

Here's where I am right now:


And yes, the picture looks pretty darn good, too.:)

Goodnight all, and have a great holiday weekend.

Michael

So, what ARE your current settings on COLORG, STATG1, STATG2, YOUTG now?

As Mr.Bob was noting, you really should open it back up and take off each lens barrel, one at time. Clean the bottom of the lens, and clean out the coolant cups. I've found the remains of little critters sitting in the bottom of the cups before. Not to mention the amount of dust. There are no seals between the barrels and coolant cups to prevent dust and insects from entering. Just be sure to ONLY remove the 4 screws that hold in each lens assembly, NOT the ones for the coolant tank.


Right. Feel free to inundate that coolant cup with liquid, it won't be hurt by any regular cleaning agent like Sprayway or Glass Plus or Windex, nor will it penetrate to anything deeper, like it would on a lens stack, so spray away. It won't go anywhere but into your VERY absorbent cleaning towel - I like paper towels because they seem to be the most absorbent - and NEVER go back and forth with that towel, just one effective swipe per portion, on all lens surfaces. With the coolant cups I usually do the whole thing with one careful swipe, each.

Lee's got it down -

;)


Mr Bob

These are pics using my HTPC (built mostly of spare parts) via HDMI at 1080I on my Hitachi 57F710A. More here (http://www.flickr.com/photos/14659644@N08/sets/72157605286960473/). Still loving this set.



As I said in the other Hit thread where these also show up, AWESOME!

:cool:


Mr Bob

So, what ARE your current settings on COLORG, STATG1, STATG2, YOUTG now?

That would be these:
"The settings we've discussed most are COLORG 03, SRTGA 00, STATG1 00, STATG2 03, YOUTG 00."

Still can't take screenshots worth a damn, so I've given up. But if you're ever in the neighborhood, would love to have you stop by!:)

Didn't you use CalMan? Results similar to these?

Michael

That would be these:
"The settings we've discussed most are COLORG 03, SRTGA 00, STATG1 00, STATG2 03, YOUTG 00."

Still can't take screenshots worth a damn, so I've given up. But if you're ever in the neighborhood, would love to have you stop by!:)

Didn't you use CalMan? Results similar to these?

Michael

Do you notice on screen that StatG2 at 03 makes any difference when StatG1 is at 0?

Do you notice on screen that StatG2 at 03 makes any difference when StatG1 is at 0?

This is an archive of the four jpg's of STATG2 from 00 to 03 with STATG1 at 00.

I was hoping BRT-LOW would help you but, no matter what I did with it, nothing seemed to change. Too bad.

It's been fun, but it's been a LOOOOONG week or two.

Tweak on.

Michael

What is this calibration for Micheal? medium or standard, I read that everything is tied to High.


Sorry, missed this somehow. Yes, everything is tied to high, which Hitachi recommends setting to D10500K. Unfortunately, ColorHCFR doesn't have a setting for D10500K, so I just left everything for high at the oob settings (actually, I RETURNED everything to the oob settings since, of course, I just HAD to change them to see what would happen).
Medium and Standard are independent of each other, so it doesn't matter which you use. Probably good for before and after, if you want to run through the settings twice (and try to remember which is which).

I still see almost no difference in Statg2 from 00-03 when Statg1 is at 00. Change it to 01-07 ect.. and then Statg2 does have an effect.

I still see almost no difference in Statg2 from 00-03 when Statg1 is at 00. Change it to 01-07 ect.. and then Statg2 does have an effect.

This is correct Mustang. If STATG-01 is @ o STATG-02 is disabled.

Quick Screen of the movie Redline... HD-DVR via COMPONENT @ 1080i

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b329/bigfnjoe96/IMG_6916.jpg

I still see almost no difference in Statg2 from 00-03 when Statg1 is at 00. Change it to 01-07 ect.. and then Statg2 does have an effect.

Definitely have to agree.

So, I have been doing some tweaking with the free calibration disc linked a few pages back and I switched COLORG to 0 and did some work with the decoder via my PS3 and hdmi. I simply cannot get blue to co-operate for the life of me. Red and green match up great, but blue not so much, is this a case of the HDMI? Oh, all I did to counteract the slight red push by turning the color down in the user menu to about 35. No problems any more, but the dark corners of my right side make the cellphone on GTA IV illegible.. time to do some striping

Oh, all I did to counteract the slight red push by turning the color down in the user menu to about 35.


Which takes your blue and green down with it, wilting their vividness and deflating their punch.

That's what is so insidious about red push. You can always get the fleshtones correct - you can't fudge the fleshtones - but red push takes the other primary colors down, with its being so high relative to them.


Mr Bob

Which takes your blue and green down with it, wilting their vividness and deflating their punch.

That's what is so insidious about red push. You can always get the fleshtones correct - you can't fudge the fleshtones - but red push takes the other primary colors down, with its being so high relative to them.


Mr Bob

Exactly, which is why I know now not to try and get color right based on fleshtones. it will look nice, but look very drab compared to how it should. I tried at first to go solley off of fleshtones, it wasn't until I actually used AVIA for my color decoding that I got the grteat color I have now. Fleshtones takes some getting used to once the colors are right since they are not always natural looking depending on the disc.

Exactly, which is why I know now not to try and get color right based on fleshtones. it will look nice, but look very drab compared to how it should. I tried at first to go solley off of fleshtones, it wasn't until I actually used AVIA for my color decoding that I got the great color I have now. Fleshtones takes some getting used to once the colors are right since they are not always natural looking depending on the disc.


AVIA is great for DVD, but for HD you need other sources. I use my Accupel pattern generator. Haven't used HD disc DVE for this purpose, but everything else on it seems to be dead on, so I suspect using the HD DVD or BluRay version of DVE would yeild the same results.

And what you say about "drab" is certainly correct, when talking about the rest of the scene - the other colors in the scene apart from the fleshtones once you have the fleshtones correct via User color intensity and tint. Which CAN produce correct fleshtones on pretty much any display that isn't totally compromised, when set correctly by the viewer. With red push the rest of the scene stays drab even tho the fleshtones are correct.

But when you have the grayscale AND the whole colorations enchilada correct, the fleshtones take on a magic of their own.

The final test is to have several different people in a scene, and be able to recognize the unique and individual fleshtone of each one, each different from all the others, while peacock feathers and other greens and blues and golds stay vivid. The entire scene stays vivid. Worlds away from drab!

When your color decoding is correct and fully aligned on all levels, it ALL stays vivid! And without compromising a single fleshtone.


Mr Bob

Would have to agree with above opinions. It is my opinion that after you take colorg to 00 and decode from there it will work out. I would definetly decode with user menu settings at mid point or neutral (however you call it). If not you really have no base line. I know I went thru the same thing. It takes a lot of tweaking to get those colors set. If you have any settings on that jack with them it will also cause problems. an example is Youtg @01, Statg1 on any setting above 00. All these will alter the decoding and cause you to redo the decoder settings. Seems especially true with blue.
My experience taught me with colorg at 00 and tweaking from there I achieved the actual fleshtones, vivid colors I was seeking. Before it was what I thought fleshtones should be instead of what they actually were. Some are trying colorg @03. I dont know about that yet.

This is correct Mustang. If STATG-01 is @ o STATG-02 is disabled.

Quick Screen of the movie Redline... HD-DVR via COMPONENT @ 1080i

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b329/bigfnjoe96/IMG_6916.jpg

I knew that had to be the case. I am currently messing with these and have Statg1@06 and Statg2 @02. Statg1@00 did seem a little washed out. Still looking for guidance in that arena.

Great screenshot:cool:

VivatHD....why:D I've cleaned the top lense twice already and now you and Lee have me thinking about the bottom lense.:(

This is correct Mustang. If STATG-01 is @ o STATG-02 is disabled.

Interesting then that the defaults (from the sm) are STATG1 00 and STATG2 03. Hitachi must think it does something.
The former is for "black gain," the latter "bright gain." Why would one be a "switch" for the other?!

Interesting then that the defaults (from the sm) are STATG1 00 and STATG2 03. Hitachi must think it does something.
The former is for "black gain," the latter "bright gain." Why would one be a "switch" for the other?!

Just because that's how it set OTB, really doesn't mean much. You can check for yourself, anytime you set STATG1 to 00, no matter where you set STAG2 the picture will not change (get dimmer or brighter)

Hey Mustang set STATG1 to 06 & STAG2 to 00. This is the most ideal setting for those 2 values

Just because that's how it set OTB, really doesn't mean much. You can check for yourself, anytime you set STATG1 to 00, no matter where you set STAG2 the picture will not change (get dimmer or brighter)

Hey Mustang set STATG1 to 06 & STAG2 to 00. This is the most ideal setting for those 2 values

Actually, I did check it for myself, and posted the graphs that show a difference in the gamma curve. Note that I didn't suggest that you could SEE a difference, just that there was one.
So set them for whatever looks best to you on your set. That is, after all, the whole point!

I will try statg2@00.

There is a difference on the graphs it just doesn't translate into anything I can see. Let me tell you that I have sat there and switched them back and forth like a madman too. Like you said though..its what looks good to you.

I like Lordclouds idea of shutting things off..it just doesnt work with Statg1@00. There is a washout look to it.

Has anyone opened up the lenses and found that the bottom ones were clean after 1 year or so? I have cleaned my top ones twice. When i shine the light down there at an angle everything looks clean deeper. Am I just fooling myself?

I will try statg2@00.

There is a difference on the graphs it just doesn't translate into anything I can see. Let me tell you that I have sat there and switched them back and forth like a madman too. Like you said though..its what looks good to you.

I like Lordclouds idea of shutting things off..it just doesnt work with Statg1@00. There is a washout look to it.

StatG1 at 00 equals not good. I have had mine at 07 for the longest time. I just recalibrated with it at 06 as has been suggested. My StatG2 is staying at 02. I'm evaluating it right now.

Actually, I did check it for myself, and posted the graphs that show a difference in the gamma curve. Note that I didn't suggest that you could SEE a difference, just that there was one.
So set them for whatever looks best to you on your set. That is, after all, the whole point!

Gotcha & totally agree it's about what you feel looks best by your eye, but we must not forget that most values interact with each other, so when we change 1, it can effect the other. Also if people are scared to push their GAMMA too high for the sake of BURN-IN, I would say don't worry. Remember your TV's have HIGH-CONTRAST Guns. :D

BTW, thanks for all the work you've been doing with your new toy...

Has anyone opened up the lenses and found that the bottom ones were clean after 1 year or so? I have cleaned my top ones twice. When i shine the light down there at an angle everything looks clean deeper. Am I just fooling myself?


Checking of the bottom ones is done by backlighting the lowest lenses with an ultra-bright set of scenes on the CRTs below, not with a flashlight.

If when you backlight the lower lenses you see a matting of dust in there, being backlighted against something black in the background, you know you have to go in. If not, maybe not.

The best test is to remove your green lens and do the test above. If your coolant cover is dirty you'll see it. If it's on the edge and you still have ?'s as to whether it's indeed dirty or not, lick your thumb and put a quarter/thumb mark on the far edge, closest to the top of the cover, sliding your thumb off at the top. With strong light content on your CRT screens beneath, that mark will be up against something very black behind it.

Is the part you just cleaned via your saliva black, where the rest of it is gray? Then it needs cleaning. If there's no difference, then let it go and get your lens back on before any more dirt gets in. While you're in there you might want to whisk away anything inside that cavity with a photo or very clean cosmetics brush. This might include insects, drywall particulates - I once cleaned a 10 year old RCA where there was an inch-wide nest of dead cockroaches in each coolant cover. They couldn't figure out why the middle of their big screen picture was so dark...

Do so also to the back of the lens while you're at it.


The deeper optics rarely need cleaning after just a year's use, even tho the tops of the lenses do. It usually takes at least a couple of years before the build-up inside that coolant cover section is bad enough to impact your picture.


Mr Bob

Also if people are scared to push their GAMMA too high for the sake of BURN-IN, I would say don't worry. Remember your TV's have HIGH-CONTRAST Guns. :D



Gamma is strictly at the low end of your light levels, and should have absolutely NO impact on potential screenburn, which is usually done at high light levels. Or at least with high light level graphics on medium light level content. Or NO light levels on same content...


Mr Bob

Will removing the lens barrels and then re-installing them cause problems with convergence? And does anything have a tendency to fall out when you handle the removed barrels, or are the lens mounted securely inside them?

Thanks for the help on this.

As Mr.Bob was noting, you really should open it back up and take off each lens barrel, one at time. Clean the bottom of the lens, and clean out the coolant cups. I've found the remains of little critters sitting in the bottom of the cups before. Not to mention the amount of dust. There are no seals between the barrels and coolant cups to prevent dust and insects from entering. Just be sure to ONLY remove the 4 screws that hold in each lens assembly, NOT the ones for the coolant tank.

Will removing the lens barrels and then re-installing them cause problems with convergence? And does anything have a tendency to fall out when you handle the removed barrels, or are the lens mounted securely inside them?

Thanks for the help on this.

No, it will not cause problems with convergence. Just be sure to remove one barrel at a time, and reinstall it before you move on to the next one. Nothing falls out of the lens barrels.

From my before and after viewing with StatG1 at 07 like I had before and 06 after I had calibrated it. I think 07 was better. I get deeper overall black woth 06, but too much black crush. 07 was better on my set from what I saw. But I will do more tonight just to be sure.

OK, I will have some time to mess with my TV after the June 6th. Most of the family will be gone for 10 days, I'm still staying with the youngest one, but night time will be the perfect time to do this anyways.

I'll get all the tools ready for calibration and moding next week, I'll try to document the process and will post as it goes.

Main objective will be optic cleaning and getting the inside black.

OK, I will have some time to mess with my TV after the June 6th. Most of the family will be gone for 10 days, I'm still staying with the youngest one, but night time will be the perfect time to do this anyways.

I'll get all the tools ready for calibration and moding next week, I'll try to document the process and will post as it goes.

Main objective will be optic cleaning and getting the inside black.

How long has it been since you have cleaned any optics, if ever? I'm real interested in what your bottom lenses will look like. I haven't opened mine up again and cant for the next couple of weeks. I want to try the test Mr. Bob detailed but cant get in right now. I guess I just want to see if everyone has experienced a lot of dust in the inner optics after 1-2 years.

From my before and after viewing with StatG1 at 07 like I had before and 06 after I had calibrated it. I think 07 was better. I get deeper overall black woth 06, but too much black crush. 07 was better on my set from what I saw. But I will do more tonight just to be sure.

I'm like you..still messing with those settings.

I'm like you..still messing with those settings.

I think it's one of the reasons I love CRT so much, I'll probably never stop messing around.

I currently have my StatG1 at 00 and my StatG2 at 03 and calibrated my black levels again. Doesn't seem washed out at all now. Looks good actually. Not sure if it looks better or worse then 07 and 02, but I'm still evaluating.

I really need to get my ex wife's laptop down here. I have had the Eye One for months now, but the software's on her lappytop! AAAGGGHHHHH!!!!!

K, StatG1 at 00 and StatG2 at 03 equals way too dim a picture.

How long has it been since you have cleaned any optics, if ever? I'm real interested in what your bottom lenses will look like. I haven't opened mine up again and cant for the next couple of weeks. I want to try the test Mr. Bob detailed but cant get in right now. I guess I just want to see if everyone has experienced a lot of dust in the inner optics after 1-2 years.

Never, my tv is just over a year old, and I'm sure it will be pretty messy in there. It seats inside a built in, if for what ever reason I take it out the inside of the cabinet is super dusty, I actually had taken it out acouple of times just to clean the inside of the built in where the tv is placed.

I've been wanting to do both the cleaning and the darkening for the longest time, but the right time has not come up due to use.

I'll take plenty of pictures to document the process.

Will removing the lens barrels and then re-installing them cause problems with convergence? And does anything have a tendency to fall out when you handle the removed barrels, or are the lens mounted securely inside them?

Thanks for the help on this.


When you put them back on, they will have shifted slightly, meaning you'll have to redo your crosshairs. But that should be about it, I don't think it will impact your dynamic/point convergence at all.

But then I always redo the convergence after the deeper optics cleaning, in my cals. Don't think so tho, because when I would do this on my 65" Panny, I never needed to redo my point sys afterwards.

But I definitely needed to redo my crosshairs, for the full pictures to be superimposed upon each other correctly again, from the center out.


Mr Bob

I really need to get my ex wife's laptop down here. I have had the Eye One for months now, but the software's on her lappytop! AAAGGGHHHHH!!!!!

ColorHCFR is a free download.

http://www.homecinema-fr.com/colorimetre/release/Setup_v2_0_0.exe

Now get to work!

When you put them back on, they will have shifted slightly, meaning you'll have to redo your crosshairs. But that should be about it, I don't think it will impact your dynamic/point convergence at all.

But then I always redo the convergence after the deeper optics cleaning, in my cals. Don't think so tho, because when I would do this on my 65" Panny, I never needed to redo my point sys afterwards.

But I definitely needed to redo my crosshairs, for the full pictures to be superimposed upon each other correctly again, from the center out.


Mr Bob

Hitachi refers to this as raster position. With the remote in DCU mode, press play. You can move the entire red and blue grid back over green at once. See page 49 of the service manual. Sorry, but I don't, offhand, remember how to change colors, but it's probably the same as everything else.

ColorHCFR is a free download.

http://www.homecinema-fr.com/colorimetre/release/Setup_v2_0_0.exe

Now get to work!

You are the man! Thanks you very much. I know what I'll be doing tonight.

Lee, Bob, and Lastbutnotleast, thanks for this info.

Sorry, but I don't, offhand, remember how to change colors, but it's probably the same as everything else.

How to change colors seems to change from year to year, in their service manuals, along with other commands that are a moving target as well. I don't know why they do that. Just to keep their OWN service techs confused and needing to keep in touch with them about such things???

Mit has NEVER done that - you can trust that whatever applied in the first year of HD still applies now except for the ingress codes themselves, the only thing they did change, year after year for many years, just to keep outsiders outside. Which worked about as well as trying to NOT find something on the internet...

They have now changed even that. They have now been using the same ingress codes for the past few years, and plan to continue to do so from now on.

Hitachi? They still like to play come and guess it -


Mr Bob

Does anyone know exactly what

BLK auto
Det
Area

Dggain
Dgarea

do exactly. I imagine they have somthing to do with Gamma. I have adjusted these a long time ago off of others recommendations. I have played with them but was curious about their exact effects.

I have been PM'ing with lastbutnotleast for the past few weeks or so, and we have been discussing lens striping. I thought that my dark corners on the right side of my screen could be fixed by lens striping, Micheal says that with striping they will only become darker. Does anyone know a way of making my corners as bright as the rest of the screen?

I have been PM'ing with lastbutnotleast for the past few weeks or so, and we have been discussing lens striping. I thought that my dark corners on the right side of my screen could be fixed by lens striping, Micheal says that with striping they will only become darker. Does anyone know a way of making my corners as bright as the rest of the screen?

My corners are dark also, but only show up as such when photographed, unless you really look for them.

I have seen all manners of lenstriping under the lenses due to my affinity for crystal clear optical path and thus deeper optics cleaning as a matter of course.

Mit used a method once that actually looked like a jackolantern, mirror imaged red to blue and completely different in the green.

You might try that idea...

But if it's not noticeable when you are watching program material, I would not worry about it.


Mr Bob

If you are dying for another CRT RPTV or know someone wanting to go HD for little $$ & big screens, UECWEB (www.uecweb.com) has all 3 F59 models in stock right now.

Since these are discontinued items, I assume mention of price is OK? If not, just click the links:

51F59:
http://www.uecweb.com/index.php?p=product&id=290&parent=1

57F59:
http://www.uecweb.com/index.php?p=product&id=293&parent=1

65F59:
http://www.uecweb.com/index.php?p=product&id=289&parent=1


Sick prices right now + free shipping!!

If you are dying for another CRT RPTV or know someone wanting to go HD for little $$ & big screens, UECWEB (www.uecweb.com) has all 3 F59 models in stock right now.

Since these are discontinued items, I assume mention of price is OK? If not, just click the links:

51F59:
http://www.uecweb.com/index.php?p=product&id=290&parent=1

57F59:
http://www.uecweb.com/index.php?p=product&id=293&parent=1

65F59:
http://www.uecweb.com/index.php?p=product&id=289&parent=1


Sick prices right now + free shipping!!

I just ordered one. You are right...sick prices... I'm glad I have a place to go to get some tweaks!

BTW, I just couldn't get myself to buy a...digital...TV. I've got a Barco 800 CRT projector too. This will be my TV and the Barco I'll use only for movies...on the BIG screen...

Seems everyone is happy with theirs...hope I am too. I didn't read this WHOLE thread...anything I need to know before it arrives? ANY box damage should I refuse or is it pretty durable? Do I need to get it working before I let the driver go? Any mandatory tweaks I need to do right away?

Thanks guys...

...anything I need to know before it arrives? ANY box damage should I refuse or is it pretty durable? Do I need to get it working before I let the driver go? Any mandatory tweaks I need to do right away?

Thanks guys...

Congrats, with a minimal amount of tweaking these sets are awesome. Turn down the contrast the moment the guns light up for the first time. I'm sure I'll get smacked for this, but IMHO the green CRTs are prone to burn in on these units.

Fish

Congrats, with a minimal amount of tweaking these sets are awesome. Turn down the contrast the moment the guns light up for the first time. I'm sure I'll get smacked for this, but IMHO the green CRTs are prone to burn in on these units.

Fish

I wouldn't say minimal, but maybe it's because I've been tweaking it for over a year now. And I would add that out of box, you will not be impressed in the slightest. Not at all. Not even close. Dissapointed even. But give it some time........

I wouldn't say minimal, but maybe it's because I've been tweaking it for over a year now. And I would add that out of box, you will not be impressed in the slightest. Not at all. Not even close. Dissapointed even. But give it some time........

You need an intervention:D. IIRC, Just some basic SM tweaks took me about three hours. That's minimal in my book. OOTB is pretty bad though. When I first got the set my wife threatened, several times, to make me take it back because the picture was so lousy.

Fish

I wouldn't say minimal, but maybe it's because I've been tweaking it for over a year now. And I would add that out of box, you will not be impressed in the slightest. Not at all. Not even close. Dissapointed even. But give it some time........

Actually, you should give it about 100 hours running time before you do anything besides reduce the contrast. You can do whatever you want before then, but it won't "stick." There is a break-in period.
The basic tweaks have been listed and summarized several times. Just WRITE DOWN YOUR ORIGINAL SETTINGS. Really.
Search back and find out how to get a copy of the service manual. Then you're good to go.
And go. And go.
Welcome to the club.

My corners are dark also, but only show up as such when photographed, unless you really look for them.

I have seen all manners of lenstriping under the lenses due to my affinity for crystal clear optical path and thus deeper optics cleaning as a matter of course.

Mit used a method once that actually looked like a jackolantern, mirror imaged red to blue and completely different in the green.

You might try that idea...

But if it's not noticeable when you are watching program material, I would not worry about it.


Mr Bob

Yeah, on regular programming you don't notice it but it is horrendously apparent on gaming, GTA 4 and Burnout are the worst offenders. Which is sad because those are the two games me and my dad play the most on it. The cellphone on GTA 4 is illegible becuase of the dark lower right corner.

I just ordered one. You are right...sick prices... I'm glad I have a place to go to get some tweaks!

BTW, I just couldn't get myself to buy a...digital...TV. I've got a Barco 800 CRT projector too. This will be my TV and the Barco I'll use only for movies...on the BIG screen...

Seems everyone is happy with theirs...hope I am too. I didn't read this WHOLE thread...anything I need to know before it arrives? ANY box damage should I refuse or is it pretty durable? Do I need to get it working before I let the driver go? Any mandatory tweaks I need to do right away?

Thanks guys...

I agree with Michael. Let it break in. Then I will definetly agree with Lordcloud. It will be more than a few tweaks. You really are lucky because this set can be adjusted to an incredible level of HD PQ. You also have this thread which is the best around.:cool:

You need an intervention:D. IIRC, Just some basic SM tweaks took me about three hours. That's minimal in my book. OOTB is pretty bad though. When I first got the set my wife threatened, several times, to make me take it back because the picture was so lousy.

Fish

Well you have to take into account that a lot of the tweaks we have known about for a while, we weren't doing when I first got my get home. If I were to get my settoday and then read through this thread, I'd be done n a few hours too. Actually, maybe not, taking the screen off, cleaning the lenses and mirrors, blackening the insides, that was all hours in and of itself.

Plus, you have to wait until at least a hundred hours pass before you can really tighten up the convergence. Yeah, way more than a few hours for me. And I'm still not done, I need to get DVE HD to get my HD colors correct.

With CRT, a few hours of tweaking amounts to not as good of a picture as you could possibly have. To me at least.

With CRT, a few hours of tweaking amounts to not as good of a picture as you could possibly have. To me at least.

But still WAY better than what you can get from (almost) anything else.

But still WAY better than what you can get from (almost) anything else.

What I meant by that was that tweaking with CRT is not a few hours affair. We are not pros, and even a good pro calibration consists of more than just a few hours. Now, you can definitely get a very good picture in a few hours when you more or less have a road map or a lot of experience. But with CRT, there are enough tweaks and adjustments to last far more than a few hours, for the perfectionist at least. And that would be me. :)

And yeah, it is still the best display type out there, only a Kuro would be considered an alternative in my opinon.

IMHO the green CRTs are prone to burn in on these units.

Fish

Same has been true for my year 2000 65" Panny, the green has aged the fastest over the 7 years I've owned it.

I think your statement would be more accurate to say that the green CRTs age faster than the other 2, regardless of whether screenburn is present or not. On mine the green has worn the most, of the 3.

I think that's true of all well calibrated CRT sets, regardless of brand. I think it's generic to CRT tech. On the grayscale, if you leave the blue way up in the ozone like it usually is OOB, then the blue would probably be the first to show age.

When well calibrated, I think the green will always age fastest, over time.


Mr Bob

What I meant by that was that tweaking with CRT is not a few hours affair. We are not pros, and even a good pro calibration consists of more than just a few hours. Now, you can definitely get a very good picture in a few hours when you more or less have a road map or a lot of experience. But with CRT, there are enough tweaks and adjustments to last far more than a few hours, for the perfectionist at least. And that would be me. :)

And yeah, it is still the best display type out there, only a Kuro would be considered an alternative in my opinon.

I would agree that it's the best display type out there - CRT. And yes the Kuro has been making waves out there. I have examined a couple so far and for the most part their grayscale is so accurate OOB if you use the right user parameters, that further ISF work has not been needed. On several occasions on these new flat panels, I have charged just the checkout fee and the travel, and been on my way. As long as you can afford this tech, tho. It's pricing is still WAY up there, worlds away from the pricing on getting a Hit refurb at UEC...

But Hit is not necessarily the "best" brand, tho it IS in the very top rung. I calibrate all brands, and all can look as good as you guys are getting your sets looking, here. And yes it's an all day job, even for an experienced CRT grade calibrator, to get a CRT RPTV looking like it should - like it has every right to, like it's been DESIGNED to be able to look.

CRT as a medium has never been anything to sneeze at or avoid, it has always been capable of sizzling/breathtaking pictures/images, and your Hit threads here are the most sophisticated and comprehensive around. No other brand I know of has at least 4 HUGE threads on the AVS or anywhere else, being as in-depth as yours are here.

Over at the SPot, the Mit's had threads like this in huge quantities and depths for the first few years of HD. But that has tapered off real bad, they seem to only be interested in the new tech now. I have tried over there to promote keeping CRT RPTV tech up and running, but have found very little support.

So since Hit is the only game in town as far as getting anything "new" - refurbed anyway - this thread, IMHO, is incredibly invaluable! Along with the other Hit threads here on the AVS.


;)

Mr Bob

Congrats, with a minimal amount of tweaking these sets are awesome. Turn down the contrast the moment the guns light up for the first time. I'm sure I'll get smacked for this, but IMHO the green CRTs are prone to burn in on these units.

Fish


IF you plan on using the HDMI input, head to the early pages of this thread for my post that gives the how to's for the original F59 HDMI fix.

Hitachi has yet to (and claims to still be working on---they called ME 3 wks ago to say so) hammer out all the HDMI bugs, but the fix listed on pg 2 of this thread (I believe) takes care of the major ones.

You may still find what has been documented as "image shift" (there is a thread here dedicated to this very topic) post-HDMI fix application. Some HDMI gear seems to be more susceptible than others. In my case, it's been pretty mild - happens very infrequently. The entire picture may shift horizontally for a few moments. Some see it happen a lot--leading them to go back to component, some--like me--do not.

I have run 2 DVD players into my 51F59's HDMI in. A Sony upscaler & a Toshiba HDA2 (my current DVD player...and it plays those "obsolete" discs, too!). Shifts happen VERY rarely & generally only once during playback of a specific disc. On the A2, it also only seems to happen w/ SD DVDs. NEver had a shift w/ an HD DVD.

Don;t know why, but I assume it is some sort of HDMI "handshake" issue.

With the "fix" & some user & service menu tweaks applied, you should end up with a very nice TV.

And yeah, it is still the best display type out there, only a Kuro would be considered an alternative in my opinon.

And of course $5,000.00 more :D

And of course $5,000.00 more :D

True, but if you've seen a calibrated one in person, and you have the money, you'd gladly pay for it. It really is a great looking set. When I upgrade, Kuro here I come. Unles there's something better at that time, cause it will be a while before I can let go of CRT.

& a Toshiba HDA2 (my current DVD player...and it plays those "obsolete" discs, too!).

Huh? What "obsolete discs"? If you mean HD DVDs, I get it, but wouldn't call them obsolete. My library of them since I got my HD-A2 has grown and grown, due to their fantastic price slashes...

It will be months if not years, at the present rate at which I have the time to watch ANY form of HD disc, before I will have gone thru them...

At the price of their players at this point, having been disco'd and selling for peanuts out there, it's almost worth it to buy one now and get as much of a library as you can of HD DVD titles, before they disappear. Then of course you'll have a limited library, and supplies of movies won't be there for the future, but for the total (very low) $ outlay required to have such a potentially large library of today's movies to select from for years to come, it was a no-brainer for me...


Mr Bob

Huh? What "obsolete discs"? If you mean HD DVDs, I get it, but wouldn't call them obsolete. My library of them since I got my HD-A2 has grown and grown, due to their fantastic price slashes...

It will be months if not years, at the present rate at which I have the time to watch ANY form of HD disc, before I will have gone thru them...

At the price of their players at this point, having been disco'd and selling for peanuts out there, it's almost worth it to buy one now and get as much of a library as you can of HD DVD titles, before they disappear. Then of course you'll have a limited library, and supplies of movies won't be there for the future, but for the total (very low) $ outlay required to have such a potentially large library of today's movies to select from for years to come, it was a no-brainer for me...


Mr Bob

My ex wife is the proud owner of my A3 and my library of HD DVD movies. There aren't a ton of movies on HD DVD that I will miss, and the ones I do will eventually come out on blu ray. Fortunately my Sammy upconverts with astonishing quality, so I'm still enjoying SD DVD. And to be honest, in some instances, SD DVD in some ways is better than Blu Ray. Heresy I know, but........some SD DVDs just look more filmlike than many HD movies. Sad but true. Too many Blu Rays are DNR'd to death and cleaned up to look like HD video as opposed to film. That's my opinion at least.

True, but if you've seen a calibrated one in person, and you have the money, you'd gladly pay for it. It really is a great looking set. When I upgrade, Kuro here I come. Unles there's something better at that time, cause it will be a while before I can let go of CRT.

If you head over to them teamxboxforums there is a thread entitled HD 360 pics (http://forum.teamxbox.com/showthread.php?t=567656), and MrTapout and ThaTonik and mTommy79 have Kuros and their screenshots are absolutely amazing. I'll post a few here.
http://img186.imageshack.us/img186/2074/pio5010fd2299fp2.jpg
http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/2889/img8790yo5.jpg
http://img187.imageshack.us/img187/2726/pio5010fd945uw5.jpg
http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/8642/img7119ph4.jpg

Ok..who can argue with those pics but 5K. I have seen some startling pics on this thread of well calibrated CRT RP and were talking way under 1K.

The ability to tweak and mod these sets just can't be beat. I dont know about you guys but the fact that I can work on this set myself and smoke my buddies flat panels makes it special to me.

IMHO this is by far the best, well informed HD set thread out there.

I see guys like myself come onto this thread and in no time have support and guidance. In turn I can give a little back. By the way did anyone ever read my post 2198 and have an answer.

Does anyone know exactly what

BLK auto
Det
Area

Dggain
Dgarea

do exactly. I imagine they have somthing to do with Gamma. I have adjusted these a long time ago off of others recommendations. I have played with them but was curious about their exact effects.

Sorry, put away the i1 for a while. Decided I might actually see how the set looks with something besides gray windows.
Pretty dang good, I must say.
Actually, was hoping to get a friend interested in buying my 57 so I could get one of the 65's and start all over. Doesn't look like that's going to happen though.

Huh? What "obsolete discs"? If you mean HD DVDs, I get it, but wouldn't call them obsolete. My library of them since I got my HD-A2 has grown and grown, due to their fantastic price slashes...

It will be months if not years, at the present rate at which I have the time to watch ANY form of HD disc, before I will have gone thru them...

At the price of their players at this point, having been disco'd and selling for peanuts out there, it's almost worth it to buy one now and get as much of a library as you can of HD DVD titles, before they disappear. Then of course you'll have a limited library, and supplies of movies won't be there for the future, but for the total (very low) $ outlay required to have such a potentially large library of today's movies to select from for years to come, it was a no-brainer for me...


Mr Bob

"Obsolete" had some intended humor attached.

True, a die hard BLuRay fan from the days of the format war would not argue over HD DVDs "obsolescense" (they said that BEFORE Warner's final death blow), but no----I still have my 30-odd "red" discs & have picked up a title or 2 since Toshiba threw in the towel because of cheap prices.

I actually went HD DVD back in Nov 07, when the HDA2'a got blown out for $99 prior to Black Friday. Was in the market for a new DVD player, had my eyes on a couple of nicer upconverters (incl an Oppo). Then, I find for a c-note, I get the Tosh + 7 free HD discs (5 mail in, 2 via BestBuy). A no-brainer. HAd no intention of entering the format war, but the price got me in.

Since then, BestBuy gave me $50 out of sympathy for not choosing the right HD format. So, it made my $100 player $50....or, in truth it meant I got Mario Kart Wii for free. ANd as an insurance policy for being able to watch my HD DVDs for a long time coming, I grabbed a factory refurb HDA2 a few months back via Amazon. Shipped, it was around $50.

Don't regret my choice for a second, but do know that it's gonna be a long time (likely) before I go Blu.

I am a huge HD DVD fan. There are so many titles we will enjoy the format for some time to come. I will wait until the dual players drop in price and grab one of them. That said I'm sure it cant beat my A20 for upscaling reg DVD's. With the ability of my Hit to display film like PQ and the quality of HD DVD...I will be a happy camper without Blu-Ray. Eventually I will have to get some of those titles but not right now.

I changed Dggain and it brightened the blacks without a substantial wash out of the pic. Can anyone tell me what they have done with Dggain and Dgarea? I dont want to be turning on something at the cost of PQ, such as introducing more circuitry.

I changed Dggain and it brightened the blacks without a substantial wash out of the pic. Can anyone tell me what they have done with Dggain and Dgarea? I dont want to be turning on something at the cost of PQ, such as introducing more circuitry.


I'd tell you what they really do if I knew. Right now, you know more than we do about them. Being Dynamic, they are tracking some signal and performing automatic adjustments.

I'd tell you what they really do if I knew. Right now, you know more than we do about them. Being Dynamic, they are tracking some signal and performing automatic adjustments.

It does seem to brighten the picture a bit, but not in the way that is useful to me, as it does seem to brighten absolute black. I aslo doubt that the dynamic circuitry in the set is of high enough quality to be relied upon. You would want to go to a high quality VPfor that.

It does seem to brighten the picture a bit, but not in the way that is useful to me, as it does seem to brighten absolute black. I aslo doubt that the dynamic circuitry in the set is of high enough quality to be relied upon. You would want to go to a high quality VPfor that.

Its hard to say as some settings interact with others while some dont. I am going to check what it does to decoding when on. It seems to function somewhat like Statg1 but not quite the same. That setting changes my decoder so I will be interested if this one does too. My set is a little dark because I like the deep blacks. Trying to change that without the washout look accompanying it.

Its hard to say as some settings interact with others while some dont. I am going to check what it does to decoding when on. It seems to function somewhat like Statg1 but not quite the same. That setting changes my decoder so I will be interested if this one does too. My set is a little dark because I like the deep blacks. Trying to change that without the washout look accompanying it.

My set is also a tad dark as I object to picture washout much more than a too dark picture. Reading around, I've found the only real cure is with a gamma bump, which will brighten black a few levels right above black but will not touch below that. Anything else I've tried affects too wide a gamut as far as blacks go for me.

My set is also a tad dark as I object to picture washout much more than a too dark picture. Reading around, I've found the only real cure is with a gamma bump, which will brighten black a few levels right above black but will not touch below that. Anything else I've tried affects too wide a gamut as far as blacks go for me.

Have both of you cleaned your optics lately? A crystal clear light path is an absolute must for what you're trying to accomplish, and you gotta make sure your deeper optics don't need it also.


Mr Bob

Have both of you cleaned your optics lately? A crystal clear light path is an absolute must for what you're trying to accomplish, and you gotta make sure your deeper optics don't need it also.


Mr Bob

Yes and No. I cleaned my top lense but not the inner ones. I guess that is my next step. Appears simple as long as you remove the right screws. I tried to see if the inner optics were dirty but I just can't tell. I am going to open them up and see.

BTW..thanks for your work on those network logos. Most have been turned down considerably. I guess your reputation precedes you.

Yes and No. I cleaned my top lense but not the inner ones. I guess that is my next step. Appears simple as long as you remove the right screws. I tried to see if the inner optics were dirty but I just can't tell. I am going to open them up and see.

BTW..thanks for your work on those network logos. Most have been turned down considerably. I guess your reputation precedes you.

That's great to hear. I have not had a chance to watch much network TV lately. I know they turned down SciFi HD's, but USA's - also owned by NBC - was still at full tilt boogie last time I checked. I know that the guy at NBC who helped me also gave me the number of their legal dept, and who to talk to there. She never returned my calls, but it got done as I requested anyway, so I can't complain.

I have talked with Dish Network, whose ultra bright logos and guide grids are causing damage all over the world as well. I no longer even go into the guide anymore - or anywhere else in there that has that stylized white "dish" logo in the upper left corner - without first turning down my contrast quite substantially. They say I will not be contacted back about it, and that it could take a month before seeing any changes. IF my feedback has been listened to AT ALL by Dish Network...

IF YOU ARE A DISH SUBSCRIBER, PLEASE CALL THEM AND GIVE THEM AN EARFUL ON HOW THEIR FULL STRENGTH ALL WHITE GRAPHICS ARE DAMAGING YOUR CRT RPTV! Graphics - any fixed images - need to be at HALF intensity to not cause the uneven phosphor aging known as screenburn.

Viewers leave those grids and graphics up there for extended periods, while they surf the channel availabilities. Those strong white graphics are just gouging away at all 3 of your CRT faces in those areas, all the time those graphics are up there. And it's just going to get worse, the more channels they develop and add to their already huge library, in that guide. Meaning we'll tend to be leaving those graphics up there even longer in the future, usually not paying attention to what they are doing to our screens.

WE NEED YOUR SUPPORT ON THIS ISSUE. It's nice that I have made a dent, but it will take the populace at large waking up and smelling the coffee, to really get things done on this issue.

When you call, the minions who first answer the phone will not know what on earth you're talking about, and will be quite ineffective - I know, I've tried. They are drones, and when they can't find any references on their computer screens about screenburn, will not know what to do. Ask them if they own a plasma or a CRT triple gun RPTV. Many own plasmas these days, that's how I got the attention of the guy at NBC who helped me - I asked, he said yes he owns a plasma, and I pointed out that his will be next to get damaged. That caused a moment's pause, and he was much more attentive after that.

I then asked for the technical assist dept. and was told to call CS and ask for a manager. When I got one, he actually did listen to me. That's the only way you'll make any progress with them. Call in as a subscriber, ID yourself, then ask for a manager or supervisor.


On how to know whether you need the deeper optics cleaning -

Once you have your green lens off, have a strong, bright picture up there.

Lick your thumb and press it to the topmost part of the opposing side of the coolant cover from you, about half an inch down, and thus clean just that little bit of it with your thumb.

Then shine a strong flashlight onto the rear of the lens, from the side, in a darkened room. Touch it just slightly, somewhere on the surface.

If the part you cleaned is markedly blacker than the surrounding surface, you have your answer -


Mr Bob

I have the 51" and have recently encountered a problem I've never noticed before. On rolling credits, there's a slight warp to the right, as the credits scroll up. It's pretty much in the centre of the screen - almost like they're going over a little bump. It's subtle, but obvious once you've noticed it. And it happens on all sources, regardless of input or connections. Thankfully, it's not noticable on normal program material.

I brought up a geometry test pattern, and the sets geometry seems just fine. It's not blooming, either, as I had the set ISF calibrated and always keep the contrast level at 30%.

Anyone else encountered this problem? Any ideas as to what this might be?

I have the 51" and have recently encountered a problem I've never noticed before. On rolling credits, there's a slight warp to the right, as the credits scroll up. It's pretty much in the centre of the screen - almost like they're going over a little bump. It's subtle, but obvious once you've noticed it. And it happens on all sources, regardless of input or connections. Thankfully, it's not noticable on normal program material.

I brought up a geometry test pattern, and the sets geometry seems just fine. It's not blooming, either, as I had the set ISF calibrated and always keep the contrast level at 30%.

Anyone else encountered this problem? Any ideas as to what this might be?

Speedbumps are geometry errors. Plain and simple. It might not LOOK like it's off, but it is. You will have to play with your geometry till it passes the speedbump test, which it is currently failing.

The later Hits had just one geometry memory, with both 1080i and 540p - which all 480 gets upconverted to as a matter of course on the later models - sharing it.

The best way to do the geometry/conv on those units is to do it on the 1080i version, which lines up the 540p version automatically.

If you plan on doing overscan reduction, you'll need to redo all the geometry anyway, so then is a good time to correct this, if that's in your plans -

Vertically scrolling credits and side scrolling pans, like in travelogs, are the best tests for geometry coherence, once the static patterns look good. They point out errors that it's a lot harder to see when the picture is frozen, whether with a pattern or with a picture.

The internal grid is usable for this test by comparing the top and bottom to the middle. All the boxes you'll look at in this comparison need to be equal to each other in sizing, and coherent in their placement on the screen. I know there are different size boxes up there, plus extraneous lines to confuse you, and you may have to work at it a bit to find the ones you'll need for this purpose. But it can be done with the internal grid.


Mr Bob

hey guys i know it's a little off topic, but after hanging out here for the past few months i feel pretty comfortable on this thread. ive been blogging for my local newspaper and would really appreciate some traffic and some input, if you could check out my site it'd be great. i have around 7 or 8 blogs posted. i'm tim seppala. btw.

my first print article runs tomorrow i'll be sure to post a link to the online version of the story (which i think is going to be better than the printed one, it has media that cant really get printed and more games)

http://blog.mlive.com/geek_guide/

Well, here it is. I took the ball Lee Bailey threw out there and ran with it. Figure this will give current/new/future F59 owners an easier place to find specific posts regarding Hitachi F59 tweaks/adjustments/etc. Enjoy!

Could someone give me a working link to that "Hitachi Service DIY Guilde.rtf" I'd sure like to try it...my TV arrives Tomorrow. The link I tried is dead.

Thanks!

Could someone give me a working link to that "Hitachi Service DIY Guilde.rtf" I'd sure like to try it...my TV arrives Tomorrow. The link I tried is dead.

Thanks!

Here you go. For some reason, this forum won't allow rtf uploads, so I appended txt to an rtf file. Just delete the .txt and you should be fine.
If you're not, there's a pdf file for good measure.
Welcome aboard.
Michael

LastButNotLeast,

You're the man! Thanks a bunch, looks like a great guide to have! Kudos to the author/s.

Thanks again...

The 57F59 arrived yesterday. OOTB it didn't look very good.

Contrast at 100% (?!?) really killed the picture. I've got my contrast down to 10 at night with brightness at around 46 and the picture looks good. This sucker is BRIGHT compared to my Barco CRT projector.

My service menu doesn't match what's in the "DIY Guide". Hitting "menu" over and over never gets me APRTR or COLORG. I get two pages of other stuff but not that. What's the deal? I'll look into the DCAM today. I assume there is where I do geometry? It would be nice to have some good instructions for that. Anyone have a "jig" they'd like to lend me?

I've got some pretty serious geometry issues. WAY overscan with half of some tickers halfway cut off, some serious speed bumps, and a trapezoidal overall shape.

The 57F59 arrived yesterday. OOTB it didn't look very good.

Contrast at 100% (?!?) really killed the picture. I've got my contrast down to 10 at night with brightness at around 46 and the picture looks good. This sucker is BRIGHT compared to my Barco CRT projector.

My service menu doesn't match what's in the "DIY Guide". Hitting "menu" over and over never gets me APRTR or COLORG. I get two pages of other stuff but not that. What's the deal? I'll look into the DCAM today. I assume there is where I do geometry? It would be nice to have some good instructions for that. Anyone have a "jig" they'd like to lend me?

I've got some pretty serious geometry issues. WAY overscan with half of some tickers halfway cut off, some serious speed bumps, and a trapezoidal overall shape.

You use the menu button only from the main service menu. Once you are in the TA1360 menu, you have to cursor up/down within it.

The 57F59 arrived yesterday. OOTB it didn't look very good.

Contrast at 100% (?!?) really killed the picture. I've got my contrast down to 10 at night with brightness at around 46 and the picture looks good. This sucker is BRIGHT compared to my Barco CRT projector.

My service menu doesn't match what's in the "DIY Guide". Hitting "menu" over and over never gets me
APRTR or COLORG. I get two pages of other stuff but not that. What's the deal? I'll look into the DCAM today. I assume there is where I do geometry? It would be nice to have some good instructions for that. Anyone have a "jig" they'd like to lend me?

I've got some pretty serious geometry issues. WAY overscan with half of some tickers halfway cut off, some serious speed bumps, and a trapezoidal overall shape.

If it's that bad, I'd speak to the seller. There's oob and there's bad; this sounds worse than "normal."

Jig patterns are available for download, then take it to Kinko's for printing on vellum (or something more transparent if they have it) for < $20. But that's serious big deal stuff (which lots of us have done anyway, BTW), which is why I suggest getting back to the seller.

If the set's new, you'll need about 100 hours of "break-in" before you can be reasonably sure you're not going to be redoing your settings over and over.

Also remember that, after making changes in the TA1360 menu (AFTER WRITING DOWN YOUR ORIGINAL SETTINGS), you need to hit "select" for the change to stick.

You may not be getting to the service menu. Hold in the "menu" button on the TV, and press "menu - 8 - select" on the remote.

The 57F59 arrived yesterday. OOTB it didn't look very good.

Contrast at 100% (?!?) really killed the picture. I've got my contrast down to 10 at night with brightness at around 46 and the picture looks good. This sucker is BRIGHT compared to my Barco CRT projector.

My service menu doesn't match what's in the "DIY Guide". Hitting "menu" over and over never gets me APRTR or COLORG. I get two pages of other stuff but not that. What's the deal? I'll look into the DCAM today. I assume there is where I do geometry? It would be nice to have some good instructions for that. Anyone have a "jig" they'd like to lend me?

I've got some pretty serious geometry issues. WAY overscan with half of some tickers halfway cut off, some serious speed bumps, and a trapezoidal overall shape.

I would run the magic focus first. Let the set run for 30 min before doing so.
See if this helps. However is you have serious problems... key on "serious" you better call the seller.

Already did... I figured...why not, it's bad enough to justify a warranty visit. Let someone else with more experience (hopefully) give it a tuneup. I watch carefully, get the gist of things and I'm more prepared for a DIY adjustment down the road after the 100 hr settling time.

I removed the lens barrels today for cleaning the backside of each. I looked down into the CRT's and I saw dark smudges or some sort of spot on each, here are some photos:

http://temp.corvetteforum.net\c4\ripsaw\img_0210.jpg


http://temp.corvetteforum.net\c4\ripsaw\img_0212.jpg


http://temp.corvetteforum.net\c4\ripsaw\img_0213.jpg


What are these and is it safe to remove the metal ring to get to them and clean up?

I think I'm going to just wisk out this open cup area with a soft makeup brush (clean one) and call it a day. I believe I am looking at the Coolant Cups and it seems that you are NOT to remove them.

I think I'm going to just wisk out this open cup area with a soft makeup brush (clean one) and call it a day. I believe I am looking at the Coolant Cups and it seems that you are NOT to remove them.

They correspond to gravity, the topmost area of each lens. I have seen this before, and it's always inside the coolant. Seems to be some sort of lighter-than-coolant stuff in there that has gravitated to the top of each coolant chamber.

I would not worry about it - everything at that point of the light path is out of focus anyway.

If you don't see any manifestation of this in your pic, let it go.

Clean the coolant covers and lens rears thoroughly if they need it while you're in there, of course. With a WET method, not a dry one.


Mr Bob

I think I'm going to just wisk out this open cup area with a soft makeup brush (clean one) and call it a day. I believe I am looking at the Coolant Cups and it seems that you are NOT to remove them.

You should probably just throw the whole thing away and get a REAL TV, like one of those fancy plasma thingies.
:D

I've got some pretty serious geometry issues. WAY overscan with half of some tickers halfway cut off, some serious speed bumps, and a trapezoidal overall shape.

Had another thought, but it's along the lines of "Are you sure the device is plugged into the wall?"

Make sure your aspect setting is 16:9 and not one of the zoom modes.

No insult intended, just a shot in the dark.

P.S.
If the service tech has any clue, we'll all be very surprised. Good luck.

I think I'm going to just wisk out this open cup area with a soft makeup brush (clean one) and call it a day. I believe I am looking at the Coolant Cups and it seems that you are NOT to remove them.

Glad ur doing this first. I plan on doing mine around the weekend of the 21st. Pls detail your experience on the forum or PM me so I can be ready for any:eek: shocks. Thanks!

Thx all. Mr. Bob, yes I used Sprayway on the coolant cups, cleaned them same way as lens-- fluffy paper towels, Sprayway, followed by lint free Optometric lens cloth (obtained from my Optometrist)-- after Sprayway is removed I breathe on it good to fog it up and gentle wipe with the lint-free optometric cloth.

Prior to removal I used a black Sharpie to put reference marks around each of the four screw areas on each lens barrel to help put them back as close to same exact position as they were from factory. There are guide pins on the underside of each barrel that fit into holes to make it dummy-proof for the most part but there is still about 1/32" of free rotation play before securing the screws, because the guide pins are a wee bit skinnier than the guide holes.

After getting it all back together I still had to do the Raster Alignment procedure, though, as red had moved to the left on me about one click (took only one click to re-align red via Raster Adjust). Green and Blue seemed to have stayed put as far as I could tell. No screen jig used to check true screen center for the cross hairs so it is possible that red had stayed put and blue and green moved one click right together, but unlikely.

Curiously, though, Red Push seems to have increased slightly. Prior to this I was running with COLORG = 00 and looked pretty good, but I ended up setting COLORG = 01 to compensate. I do not know if this could be the reason, but when I used Sprayway on the Red Coolant Cup the top rim of the cup that is that blackish blue hue turned a bit bluer after all wipe down was done, as if the Sprayway had done something to effect the hue. However, this did not happen with the other two Coolant Cups' top rims. This rim I refer to is maybe 3/8" wide.

Also, I had to do quite a bit of convergence work, even after the raster re-align convergence was off quite a bit.

Since I was in DCAM mode for the raster alignment, I went ahead and did convergence by DCAM and wrote to ROM, re-initialized MF, etc.

I do know that Insight Cable is working on making their local network around here all digital this week, during late night/early morning hrs and I believe 1am - 5am Tuesday morning (this morning...) was slated for the work. What I am getting at is that since the TV hadn't been on today except after this procedure, there is a chance that some of the color saturation change *may* be due to Insight monkeying around with their digital conversion or whatever it is they're actually doing.

The 57F59 arrived yesterday. OOTB it didn't look very good.

Contrast at 100% (?!?) really killed the picture. I've got my contrast down to 10 at night with brightness at around 46 and the picture looks good. This sucker is BRIGHT compared to my Barco CRT projector.

My service menu doesn't match what's in the "DIY Guide". Hitting "menu" over and over never gets me APRTR or COLORG. I get two pages of other stuff but not that. What's the deal? I'll look into the DCAM today. I assume there is where I do geometry? It would be nice to have some good instructions for that. Anyone have a "jig" they'd like to lend me?

I've got some pretty serious geometry issues. WAY overscan with half of some tickers halfway cut off, some serious speed bumps, and a trapezoidal overall shape.


If you want a screen jig, check WAY back to the 1st couple of pages to this thread. A poster named Cavery (who seems to have vanished from AVS since) posted .pdfs of all 3 F59 size screen jigs.

These .pdfs can be dumped to CD or other storage medium & loaded onto an AutoCAD machine to be printed up full size. Check with your local Kinko's or other print shop that has AutoCAD available. The jig can be printed either on clear mylar (not usually cheap & occasionally hard to find) or translucent vellum paper (works fine, actually, but not totally transparent. Less $$ than mylar, too).

The F59 service manual (links to a free .pdf of this can be found on this thread as well) gives the "how to" for use. That being said, the jig will get you the factory dimensions, which when "perfect" result in about 5-5 1/2% oscan L/R & btwn 3.5-4% top/bottom. Any overscan reduction you may perform negates the use of the jig (your set's DCAM grid would be smaller post reduction).

I printed one on vellum last year, mainly to get back to "factory" after a couple of failed oscan reduction attempts. Got my geo back to normal w/ jig & the SM suggested geometry/ H-V size adjustment procedure.

Since then, I redid oscan reduction "right" (my 51 now sits @ approx 4% all around -about as low as this or any 7" gun CRT RPTV will get w/o ext processing) and no longer need the jig. Took a lot of work, but geo errors are gone & little if any video of any consequence is ever cut off. At worst, some network logo bugs butt up against the screen edges (like the ABC HD one, the "D" just clears the right screen edge) where there would normally be a little room beyond them on a fixed pixel set.

The 51" jig on vellum paper from Kinkos ran me less than $20.

When you locate Cavery's post w/ the jigs, you will also find nearby a few posts from Cavery & myself (surely some valuable input from Mr Bob as well, if memory serves) detailing the proper use of the jig & the size adjustments - translated into "readable" English from the service manual.

Some centering of the widescreen image (also done in the service menu) will likely need doing as well. I say use your eyes & some sort of 16x9 and/or HD image to center things, as opposed to default service menu values that the service manual may list.