I think (especially with the 2006 series that have MP3 , USB inputting etc) that they should be fully defined and called a freking computer. Correct me if wrong.

Maybe when the underlying OS is PC related, but till then, no.

Maybe when the underlying OS is PC related, but till then, no.


IMHO I don't think its relevant whether the underlying OS is PC or even Mac. The fact that is does have an OS, a crude user interface, and other hardware elements such as memory, a hard disc drive with a file system, and an optical drive makes it technically a "computer". However, I agree that you can't really designate it as a computer in the same sense as the PC, Mac, or Linux box that may reside at your desktop or even a thin client that provides a user interface to run programs that reside on a network for that matter, because it is rather a one trick pony and has limited ability to do tasks other than video recording and disc burning (this is true whether the DVD recorder's OS were proprietary or if it were like a locked down version of Windows). When you can use it to generate word processing documents, spreadsheets, databases, do web browsing, send e-mail, send instat messages, make voip phone calls, play World of Warcraft, and automate my bill paying, then I might be inclined to call it a computer.

If I can't write a program for it then AFAIC it's not a computer... :)

even my old 1989 car had a "computer." However, I have a Sony HD DVR that runs on Linux, but right now, nothing you can really do to modify it :(

Even this 1961 calculator (http://www.vintagecalculators.com/html/sumlock_anita.html) could be considered a computer. After all it did/does compute data that is input and give a result.

It is a computer, but not a "personal computer" in the sense we all understand and use that term.

Even this 1961 calculator (http://www.vintagecalculators.com/html/sumlock_anita.html) could be considered a computer. After all it did/does compute data that is input and give a result."Computer", in the usual technical sense of the word, is something that can be given a set of instructions (ie, a "program") to follow. By this definition a DVD recorder is closer to being a computer than a calculator, since you can "program" a DVD recorder to record certain shows. So I'd disagree with you for the 1961 calculator, but not for later programmable calculators.

And by that definition, perhaps a DVD recorder is closer to being a computer than I'd like to admit... ;)

I would not call a DVD recorder a computer any more than I would call my car a computer. A DVDR is a device, nothing more. It is, however, a device that contains a small single-purpose computer to provide it's function and interface to the human world. According to the manual, my car contains 27 small computers that make it run. In that respect it is far more powerful than a DVDR, from a computational standpoint, but nevertheless the car is still a device.

I think (especially with the 2006 series that have MP3 , USB inputting etc) that they should be fully defined and called a freking computer. Correct me if wrong.

BTW, HG. Just wondering why does it "freking" (sorry, couldn't resist my friend) matter whether or not they are defined as computers, anyway? What difference would it make? Not trying to be argumentative, just trying to figure out why it matters [to you]?

I know you from previous posts you are somewhat computer/PC phobic, so if they did define DVD recorders as computers then would you not use them?

VF- I am not PC phobic - I embrace computers as you would your Mother. I live them and breathe them. However I have stated that it is much easier to duplicate any burned disc on a Pioneer HDD model(531/640) than a computer- THIS IS A FACT. My question was merely from a technical standpoint. It matters, because in this technological milieu that we live, lines are blurred, and connectivity is the issue. DVDR's are progressing and will change with this new framework. BTW- Are you the VF that was on ABC Nightline that recorded and castigated AOL for it's refusal to cancel his account? They had a Vincent Ferarri on that segment 6 months ago that lives in Washington D.C. It has got to be you- the chances of another Vincent Ferarri in DC that was this electronic savvy are way off the chart. Nevertheless, if so or not, that Nightline spot was primo. The Vincent Ferrari that they had on Nightline was somewhat overweight and about 38-47. And definitely Italian- As I am Irish and working on a 35 inch waist, but 34 for now and 5' 11".

VF- I am not PC phobic - I embrace computers as you would your Mother. I live them and breathe them. However I have stated that it is much easier to duplicate any burned disc on a Pioneer HDD model(531/640) than a computer- THIS IS A FACT. Sorry HG, but no -- not a fact, just your opinion. I would never use a DVDR to duplicate a disk unless my PC was broke and I had no other choice. IMHO, what could be easier than loading a source disk in one drive, blank media in the second drive, starting a simple disk-copy utility and walking away. And my copy utility verifies the burn -- I would be willing to bet no DVDR does that.

VF- I am not PC phobic - I embrace computers as you would your Mother. I live them and breathe them. However I have stated that it is much easier to duplicate any burned disc on a Pioneer HDD model(531/640) than a computer- THIS IS A FACT. My question was merely from a technical standpoint. It matters, because in this technological milieu that we live, lines are blurred, and connectivity is the issue. DVDR's are progressing and will change with this new framework. BTW- Are you the VF that was on ABC Nightline that recorded and castigated AOL for it's refusal to cancel his account? They had a Vincent Ferarri on that segment 6 months ago that lives in Washington D.C. It has got to be you- the chances of another Vincent Ferarri in DC that was this electronic savvy are way off the chart. Nevertheless, if so or not, that Nightline spot was primo. The Vincent Ferrari that they had on Nightline was somewhat overweight and about 38-47. And definitely Italian- As I am Irish and working on a 35 inch waist, but 34 for now and 5' 11".

I have to agree with Kelson that PC-based disc duplication easily outstrips using a DVD recorder. Even when you consider Pioneer's rather handy disc duplication feature you are still limited by having to re-dub that copy from the HDD versus a straight DVD-to-DVD on-the-fly dupe that can be accomplished in less time, plus the added advantage that you can back up your commercial disc collection using a PC while this is not possible with a DVD recorder unless you apply hacks or insert filters (which also results in an imperfect analog dub). Based on your reluctance to use a PC for this straight forward task I still sense that you are uncomfortable with using a PC versus a DVD recorder for a task (disc duplication) for which a PC is clearly more suited to perform.

From the perspective of semantics, as you can see from this thread, arguments can be made for and against whether a DVD recorder can be considered a computer - but I still fail to see why it matters. Connectivity is a whole different matter. Multimedia Connectivity to the viewing interface (TV, Flat Panel, projector, computer, laptop, PDA or whatever) is something that has yet to be perfected from both a technological and cost effectiveness stanpoint (media servers and thin client multimedia playback devices are too quirky, limited compatibility and coverage, low quality, and arcane for the average person). However, once this technolgy "arrives" I suspect it will spell the end of optical media rendering it irrelevant because the main advantages of optical media - portability, on demand viewing - will be inherent in the "connected" paradigm and the main disadvantages of optical media - namely fragility, limited compatibility, limited quality (for non HD discs), and physical storage will be mitigated by that same "connected" system.

Re: the AOL guy: That wasn't me...but it easily could have been. Let's just say, I unsubscribed and leave it at that.

i agree with kelson, if you burn from your pc, its one click of a button and you walk away....30 minutes later, you are done..:)

In the interest of stirring lively debate I'll take HG's position on the relative ease of copying discs. The Pioneer is easy - it guides you through each step of the process and you never have to worry about it crashing. With a PC, first of all have you to figure out which piece of software you need to use, you have to learn which arcane menu structure and settings are required, you have to fret which of the myriad of burning and file structure options will work, and then once you start you hope that whatever else is going on on the PC doesn't cause a burn error.

I've got over 30 years of experience with computers, and I agree that once you've figured out the right path through the maze, burning on a PC is fairly easy. And PCs offer a lot more flexibility too. But they can be pretty daunting for someone who doesn't have a computer background. The Pioneer, though it has it's limitations, is much, much more approachable.

I use a PC instead of my 633 to duplicate discs for the primary reason that if I wear out the DVD drive in my PC I can replace it for <$50. Doubtful I could do that on the 633.

In the interest of stirring lively debate I'll take HG's position on the relative ease of copying discs. The Pioneer is easy - it guides you through each step of the process and you never have to worry about it crashing. With a PC, first of all have you to figure out which piece of software you need to use, you have to learn which arcane menu structure and settings are required, you have to fret which of the myriad of burning and file structure options will work, and then once you start you hope that whatever else is going on on the PC doesn't cause a burn error.

Sean -

OK - I'll take the debate bait. You seem to be describing the more complex DVD recording/editing/authoring applications vs. the relatively simpler single button press disc-to-disc copy PC applications that are set up so that "even a caveman (or HG ;) ) could do it." The latter PC application being a closer representation of what is done by the Pioneer disc copy feature versus full blown DVD authoring.

You seem to be describing the more complex DVD recording/editing/authoring applications vs. the relatively simpler single button press disc-to-disc copy PC applications that are set up so that "even a caveman (or HG ;) ) could do it."To be honest with you I haven't seen or tried any such "one button" programs. I've got what came with my Plextor burner, which is "Roxio DVD Creator". I only burn data DVDs on my computer, and not many of them. Of the 12 different Roxio applications that got installed on my machine by the Plextor software disc, I eventually figured out that the one I needed to do what I want was "Creator Classic", so I've stuck to using that one.

The first time I put in an unfinalized DVD-RW from my Pioneer, the Roxio "Drag to DVD" software went in and screwed around with it, so I had to go into the Registry to prevent it from starting up.

Roxio has a "Disc Copy" application, but it's got tons of options (copy from DVD to hard drive, ISO vs. file format, choice of burn speeds, etc. etc. etc.), so it certainly doesn't qualify as a "one button solution".

So while there probably are easy solutions out there, it isn't an "out of the box" experience like the Pioneer is. You'd still have to hunt down the software, do a little research on it to make sure it's not Spyware or whatever, install it, test it to see if it works, etc. Once you get past all that, then yeah - it's "nice and easy". :rolleyes:

Maybe the software that comes with current burners isn't so convoluted - if so then it's a good step forward.

The Decrypter and Shrink applications described throughout this thread are fairly well tested and simple to use. They don't have all the bells and whistles, functionality, and complexity of the Nero's and Roxio's but they don't pretend to be those apps either. They are simple one-trick-Ponies that perform the disc rip/copy task well but not much else. Keeping it simple for the user and at minimal cost vs. say $300 to $400 for a Pioneer recorder with disc copy functionality and without the copy protection issues to deal with for those just trying to make backup copies of their personal collections.

The Decrypter and Shrink applications described throughout this thread are fairly well tested and simple to use.I downloaded and tried DVD decrypter, and I quite like it. It is fairly simple, but I still wouldn't describe it as a "one button solution". The "settings" dialogue box has well over a dozen buttons and entry fields, and that's just on the first of 12 tabs! The novice user has to figure out which menu options to use (File, IFO or ISO mode?) and which order to use them in (select the mode first, then select a directory, then press the "Copy" button). Again, once you've figured it out it's pretty straightforward, but there's still that initial hurdle to overcome.

I'll still side with HG and say that the Pioneer is simpler. I think the only way that Pioneer could improve on it is to change the name from "Disc Backup" to "Copy one DVD to another".

Agreed that if you veer away from the default settings you get into arcane territory even with these "simpler" apps. For duplicating home brew discs or discs w/o copy protection, the Pioneer "hardware" disc copy method is pretty straightforward - however the PC-based apps allow you to backup "protected" discs which I believe the Pioneer will not so they have a leg up in that respect.

...however the PC-based apps allow you to backup "protected" discs which I believe the Pioneer will not so they have a leg up in that respect.Very true, and when you get into somewhat more esoteric combinations (Dual-layer or DVD-RAM as possible examples) then the PC is definitely more flexible.

For testing purposes, I just duplicated a 4.09 GB movie( that I had previously recorded off Dish TV) on the Pio 640, using a 8X TY DVD-R blank- It took 25 minutes- a 16x would have probably knocked another 3- 4 minutes off that for the burn to blank. It took about 4 button pushes on the remote. I'd say most people with computers and their software cannot beat this for ease of use,speed and reliability. In fact I would like to see if a PC can beat this under a same size file using an 8X blank. Someone mentioned the tempermental nature of computers with burning software and this is a fact. BTW, I still love computers VF. :)

In fact I would like to see if a PC can beat this under a same size file using an 8X blank.A computer with two DVD drives and the right software could easily beat that time by doing a direct copy in one pass...

Interesting thread. The answer we are looking for is "Embedded System".

The wikipedia article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embedded_system_overview) gives a pretty good overview of the concept, and of course that is exactly what an HDD recorder is.

The definition given there is: "a special-purpose system in which the computer [my emphasis] is completely encapsulated by the device it controls".

This is in contrast to "a general-purpose computer, such as a personal computer".

Many other examples are listed as well.

Theron

Indeed. General-Purpose versus Embedded is exactly the distinction in question here.

DVD Recorders don't blue-screen as often as Computers ;-)

DVD Recorders don't blue-screen as often as Computers ;-)Mine does. Every time I tune it to a nonexistent channel the whole screen goes blue. Totally blue! It bluescreens all the time!!!! ;)

A computer with two DVD drives and the right software could easily beat that time by doing a direct copy in one pass...

Then test it.

http://bobkart.gt3times.com/jpeg/burn-test-thumb.JPG (http://bobkart.gt3times.com/jpeg/burn-test.JPG)

9:54 using Roxio Media Creator (one I haven't used in a while).

Four mouse clicks: one to Launch, one to choose Disc Copy, one to Burn, one to Exit.

This was a completely full single-layer disc , 4.37GiB.

Destination drive was an NEC ND-2500A, maximum burn speed: 8x.

There was of course another bit of time (less than one minute) to insert and remove the two discs.

EDIT: Whoops, sorry, FIVE mouse clicks all told, it took two clicks to exit the application altogether.

http://bobkart.gt3times.com/jpeg/burn-test-thumb.JPG (http://bobkart.gt3times.com/jpeg/burn-test.JPG)

9:54 using Roxio Media Creator (one I haven't used in a while).

Four mouse clicks: one to Launch, one to choose Disc Copy, one to Burn, one to Exit.

This was a completely full single-layer disc , 4.37GiB.

Yeah, but does it do windows? ;)

For the record, my Pio 640 takes 10 minutes for a full 16x -R disc, plus just over a minute to finalize. It says 2 minutes on the screen, but I've timed it, with a single thumbnail menu, and it took about 1:10. Of course, that is just one way, HDD --> DVD. Disc backups take about the same time, each way.

Yeah same with my 633, it typically reports 8-9 minutes for the High-Speed Dub, then another 2 for the Finalize.

My PC test above was a complete disc-to-disc copy as HoustonGuy suggested.

Mine does. Every time I tune it to a nonexistent channel the whole screen goes blue. Totally blue! It bluescreens all the time!!!! ;)

Ooooops! I forgot that blue screen :-)

Come to think of it, when the Panasonic (Es20) crashes on finalization, it is also a blue/cyan screen :-)

For the record, my Pio 640 takes 10 minutes for a full 16x -R disc, plus just over a minute to finalize. ... Of course, that is just one way, HDD --> DVD. Disc backups take about the same time, each way.I'm pretty sure that Bob's test was a complete one-pass copy of one DVD to another using two drives in his computer. Right Bob?

Edit - whoops, Bob's reply was on a new page and I didn't see it. Thanks Bob, I thought so.