Summary of ATSC recorders

[bfdtv]

Toshiba will pass HD signal through?No, it will not.

[sivartk]

No, it will not.

What can you show me to definitely prove that this is the case? Not saying I don't believe you, just I haven't seen anything to make me believe it may not be the case. I pre-ordered one for my grandparents (SD only TV), so I will be able to check when it arrives.

[indyjack]

I recorded a 1 hour program last night and it took only 9 minutes to record.
Yes it was high speed playback and no sound. I played the DVD-RAM on my
other Pany recorder and same playback.
Called Panasonic and was told that I had a dirty lazer or I had used a high speed
disk. Good answer. The unit works fine when I don't use scheduled programming.
I am waiting for a callback.

[Kelson]

I recorded a 1 hour program last night and it took only 9 minutes to record.
Yes it was high speed playback and no sound. I played the DVD-RAM on my
other Pany recorder and same playback.
Called Panasonic and was told that I had a dirty lazer or I had used a high speed
disk. Good answer. The unit works fine when I don't use scheduled programming.
I am waiting for a callback.Do I understand you correctly? You recorded a 1hr show and at the end of the recording the properties dialog showed that it only occupied 9 minutes on the disk? Is that the case?

Could you also comment on the heat generation of the unit. Not just the top of the unit but also the bottom.

[biker19]

Does anyone know if the current Phillips HDD model's HDD can be replaced? Assuming that it's replaceable/ upgradeable and the price comes down below $300 this unit would be good enough for my needs. The specs only mention ATSC but like the 3505 I assume it also has a QAM tuner.

[indyjack]

Yes the entire show took 9 minutes to play. I could not find a way to slow it down
on either machine - also no sound. I can't find any settings that could cause this.
As far as a heat issue, there is a setting for quick start which uses 14 watts. Not
using it (as I am) uses 1 watt. without a hard drive, I wouldn't think that heat
is an issue.
No call back yet.

[Kelson]

bobbyslav reported in another thread that her LG recorder (no HDD) was like a hotplate on the top and a broiler on the underneath, so I was just curious. My preference lies towards Panasonic and I would like to get a non-HDD unit with digital tuner for several reasons. But after everything I am reading, I will sit out the first gen ATSC tuner models -- and possibly the second.

[indyjack]

I also waited for the Panasonic model since I really love my E95H model which is great
as long as you stay away from the TV guide for recording.
I bought the EZ17 to use as a vcr replacement and tuner. Several problems like
uneven bars, no zoom and this strange recording speed make me think that I jumped
the gun early. Unless Pany tech support calls by morning, I am returning it.

[RichBenn]

I also waited for the Panasonic model since I really love my E95H model which is great
as long as you stay away from the TV guide for recording.
I bought the EZ17 to use as a vcr replacement and tuner. Several problems like
uneven bars, no zoom and this strange recording speed make me think that I jumped
the gun early. Unless Pany tech support calls by morning, I am returning it.

Sounds like you may just have a bad one. Initial production run problems. Let's hope not all of them do this!

[Kelson]

Sounds like you may just have a bad one. Initial production run problems. Let's hope not all of them do this!Perhaps by the time they ramp up production enough to supply Circuit City and Best Buy they will have the initial production bugs worked out. I would hope they don't give themselves a black eye.

[bobbyslav]

bobbyslav reported in another thread that her LG recorder ...


that HIS ....

[Acteng]

Can anyone comment as to whether or not these new ATSC DVDR's have a built in programming guide? I didn't see any mention of one in the Panny EZ17/27 manuals.

I'm OTA only. My STB (SIR-T451) has a built in one that uses the PSIP data on the ATSC channels. It's slow to update and only has a few hours worth of data on it, but still I find it useful to see what's on. Most of the time the local stations update the program data.

Apparently the TV Guide On Screen system is more robust, but as I understand it this data is transmitted over the air on an analog channel... which these new units can't tune as they lack NTSC tuners. Any plans to transition the TVGOS system to use one of the digital OTA channels?

[bobbyslav]

Can anyone comment as to whether or not these new ATSC DVDR's have a built in programming guide? I didn't see any mention of one in the Panny EZ17/27 manuals.

I'm OTA only. My STB (SIR-T451) has a built in one that uses the PSIP data on the ATSC channels. It's slow to update and only has a few hours worth of data on it, but still I find it useful to see what's on. Most of the time the local stations update the program data.

Apparently the TV Guide On Screen system is more robust, but as I understand it this data is transmitted over the air on an analog channel... which these new units can't tune as they lack NTSC tuners. Any plans to transition the TVGOS system to use one of the digital OTA channels?

Well so far all new models have NTSC tuners, but none of them TVguide. The LG I tried didn't have a program guide. It only displayed the name of the current program and only on digital channels, not on analog.

[indyjack]

The EZ17 doesn't have a tv guide. You can get a little info, such as current program and next
by pressing the status button while viewing a digital channel.
FYI - My unit was made 01/07 so it might be a first run.

[biker19]

I asked LiteOn this question a few months ago when I thought some companies might know their future plans: what your digital tuner plan for DVDrs. At that time they had no clue. I asked again yesterday.

Here's the basic text of the e-mail exchange:

Me : Do you plan to introduce a digital tuner (ATSC/QAM) equipped DVDr?

LiteOn marketing dept: We do not plan to introduce a digital tuner (ATSC/QAM) equipped DVDr. Please check back on our website for future updates.

Me: You mean you'll stop making/selling tuner equipped DVDrs for the US market as all of them require such a tuner?


Marketing Dept: Yes!

I'll still buy a DVD burner for my PC from them but maybe it's time to retire my 3 year old 5005. :(

[Kelson]

that HIS ....Sorry, my bad.

[wildwillie6]

Panny's DMR-EZ37K is making its way into the distribution chain -- that's the one with ATSC-NTSC DVD and VHS. It's now reported in stock at jr.com.

[buzzy_]

DMR-EZ37K at j & r (http://www.jr.com/JRProductPage.process?Product=4157174)

[DanielCard]

Looks like Philips updated their 3505. Now there is a type 1 and a type 2. I don't know what the difference is. http://www.p4c.philips.com/files/d/dvdr3505_37/dvdr3505_37_dfu_aen.zip
Here is what the readme file in the zip says:
For Prod No/Serial No – LN1AXXXXXXXXXX, please use DVDR3505_UM_ENG_TYPE1.pdf

For Prod No/Serial No – LN2AXXXXXXXXXX, please use DVDR3505_UM_ENG_TYPE2.pdf

[biker19]

The 3505 (manuf date of 1/07) just showed up at my Walmart - none on display and the price checking station drew a blank when I held up the box to it.

[bobbyslav]

Come on guys! Are we gonna get any more detailed reviews on the Panasonic?

I returned the LG and am ready to try something new. Just saw both Panasonics (black and silver ez17 that is) at one call for 198 which includes 3 day shipping. I've been going to Walmart pretty much daily hoping to find the Philips, but no luck here.

I am really happy though to finally see an attractively designed Panasonic. The previous models were so hideous, I could never get over it and try one, no matter how good the reviews were.

[RichBenn]

Come on guys! Are we gonna get any more detailed reviews on the Panasonic?

I returned the LG and am ready to try something new. Just saw both Panasonics (black and silver ez17 that is) at one call for 198 which includes 3 day shipping. I've been going to Walmart pretty much daily hoping to find the Philips, but no luck here.

I am really happy though to finally see an attractively designed Panasonic. The previous models were so hideous, I could never get over it and try one, no matter how good the reviews were.

My sentiments exactly! (Including the need to hear about it!)

[Davinleeds]

At one call, owners manual pdf blocked. Is it just me?

http://www.*******.com/ProductDetails.aspx?id=86869

Won't let me link, third try.

Panasonic DMR-EZ17S

[Chuck44]

At one call, owners manual pdf blocked. Is it just me?

http://www.*******.com/ProductDetails.aspx?id=86869

Won't let me link, third try.

Panasonic DMR-EZ17S
Try this link. (http://service.us.panasonic.com/OPERMANPDF/DMREZ17.PDF)

[vferrari]

Come on guys! Are we gonna get any more detailed reviews on the Panasonic?

I returned the LG and am ready to try something new. Just saw both Panasonics (black and silver ez17 that is) at one call for 198 which includes 3 day shipping. I've been going to Walmart pretty much daily hoping to find the Philips, but no luck here.

I am really happy though to finally see an attractively designed Panasonic. The previous models were so hideous, I could never get over it and try one, no matter how good the reviews were.

I think what you are experiencing here with respect to lack of reviews is the fact that many people who frequent this forum typically don't purchase DVD recorders without HDD because of the multitude of advantages provided by the HDD being on board. Therefore, there is a noted lack of excitement for the new ATSC tuner recorders lacking HDD's, especially if they're existing analog tuner HDD units are still filling the bill. I personally have no desire to purchase a non-HDD ATSC unit at this time. Don't need it because I use analog cable and have a standalone ATSC/QAM tuner for OTA recordings. Also lack of HD pass through is disappointing so you can't even really use these as standalone HD tuner for HD displays lacking a tuner (i.e., they bring nothing to the table more compelling than purchasing a standalone ATSC tuner and feeding that into my analog tuner DVD/HDD recorder>which is what I am already doing now). I'll probably not purchase another DVD recorder unless Panny or another name brand comes out with a HDD based unit with an ATSC tuner.

[Kelson]

I would tend to agree with you about people here wanting HDD recorders but note that there is a contingent here who are enamored with anything costing <$100. I personally would be happy at this stage if Panasonic would just re-issue their EH55 and EH75 models as updated versions with added ATSC tuners. The fact that they have not and have no plans to during 2007 does not bode well. Did they just procrastinate, not believing the deadline would be enforced, and got caught with their pants down. Or is it lack of market for the product. When the #1 recorder maker drops the ball like this, you have to wonder.

[DrBri99]

I purchased the LG DVD recorder. I've only had it a few days and I am not going to keep it. (more specific comments are in the "LG787T" thread)

This is my first DVD recorder, and in some ways it is less flexible that using VHS.

I'm leaning towards computer based recording. To me having a HDD recorder means maxing the storage at some point unless you have a way to archive (even if archive is not HD).

From reading discusson on the Autumn Wave On Air GT, everyone seems pretty happy with it.

[sivartk]

the only thing I fear about PC's is the noise and the horror stories I have heard from others that have built their own. Constantly having to reboot, losing programs because Windows update was doing an update and reboot, etc.

[DrBri99]

I know this is the wrong thread for HTPC discussion, but Windows XP pro is very stable, I've heard MCE isn't. The OnAir GT works with XP-Pro. I'm looking into a laptop with a 500GB hard drive. Laptops are much quieter, save deskspace, and I can take HD-TV with me whereever I go.

Since I live in the sticks I can't get high speed internet, so I don't have to worry about my computer trying to update, it doen't do anything unless I tell it to.

I've had horrible PC's that crash, but they have gotten better.

I currently archive video to Video CD format with a 1.0 GHz processor and only 128 K memory. Video processing takes a while, but works just fine.

[bobbyslav]

I really don't buy the whole idea that companies were not prepared for the ATSC switch. If I've learned anything about American corporate thinking, the sole foundation for any decission is money. They simply don't want us to have anything for free, if they can find a way to charge us monthly for it. Why let us watch true HD for free, when we can pay extra $5 a month to the satellite provider? Or even better 100 a month to the cable company. It is the same reason we don't get the newest coolest cell phones - the big corporations want us locked securly into monthly payments so they make sure that we'll have to constantly spend more and more.

If we are ever so stuburn to refuse the "convenience" of the all-in-one package of internet, tv, phone, mobile, and everything else that is "conviniently" bundled for us by the usually only cable operator wherever we might be, then the friendly people at the big electronics companies want to make sure that we'll have to buy as many shiny boxes as they can possibly think of. Why make one box that can store, edit, receive, output, and surf that will only make a profit of about $500, when you can sell 10 that will each make this much.

And of course we have to think about the little bros too - all those shiny little boxes have to be connected, so our good friends at Monster can sell their $100 cables for "the best quality possible". And the folks at Avia can come up with a new calibration disc for each format available, because you have 10 boxes remember? Each one needs to calibrated individually.

Then we of course have to play nice with the studios. It is definitely getting too scary. Why would anyone buy a boxed set again, if you can record it for free in DVD quality with 5.1 sound, without the comercials, and have it as soon as the show is over rather than wait till the end of the season and then some.


OK... enough blubber for one day.

[Sean Nelson]

the only thing I fear about PC's is the noise and the horror stories...If you're looking for something that will record shows reliably (and who isn't?) then this is a huge problem. The beauty of a stand-alone unit is that it's very stable - whereas a PC, even if you don't install any software yourself, is constantly being auto-updated with security patches, "Genuine Window Validation" tools, "Malicious Software Removal" tools, etc. Not to mention all the viruses themselves...

A friend of mine had a Media Centre PC that started showing a dialogue box on shutdown complaining that "MCI Command Handling" would not shut down. Because of this it wouldn't shut down properly after recording a show and therefore it wouldn't record any subsequent shows.

Apple's not totally immune either, I have others friends who've told me about the problems with their Macs.

There's an old adage - "if it ain't broke...". The firmware in a stand-alone unit will never change on it's own. It may have bugs (I know, I'm a Pioneer TVGOS user!), but as long as they're the bugs I know and understand then I can deal with them.

I use my computer heavily and I can't imagine life without it, but I'll stick with the stand-alone units for my A/V equipment, thanks very much.

[westgate]

i have the es15 which i really like a lot but it wont properly record anamorphic/ w/screen dvd-rs like my toshiba dr2s do or like commercial dvds are. if the ez17 or 27, etc. will do this (assuming there are no other quality problems) then i want one! anyone determined this yet?

[Kelson]

I really don't buy the whole idea that companies were not prepared for the ATSC switch. I don't either but, the alternative is that there simply isn't a big enough market for them to be interested in, in a big way. I don't like that alternative because the consequences are a vanishing technology.

[bobbyslav]

i have the es15 which i really like a lot but it wont properly record anamorphic/ w/screen dvd-rs like my toshiba dr2s do or like commercial dvds are. if the ez17 or 27, etc. will do this (assuming there are no other quality problems) then i want one! anyone determined this yet?

I read the manual carefully yesterday and according to it, the EZ17 will properly record 16:9, but I don't have it so can't be sure.

[Budget_HT]

I read the manual carefully yesterday and according to it, the EZ17 will properly record 16:9, but I don't have it so can't be sure.
On all media? Or, only on DVD-RAM?

[fku]

on a different front: does any of the machines so far pass DD5.1 from cable or ota?

I think the answer is no but want to be sure.

[westgate]

the correct term i should have used is anamorphic widescreen/letterboxed. the record menu should offer the option as my toshiba dr2s do. the es 15 only does this w/dvd ram discs i believe. i want it to do it w/ dvd-rs.

[bobbyslav]

Hmmmm.... maybe I didn't read it that carefully. It's on page 10 if anyone wants to look and confirm (a link to the manual is in another post a little further up in this thread posted by Chuck44).

It says widescreen material from digital channels is recorded in 16:9 and displayed in a letterbox on a 4:3 monitor, with RAM discs.

Every other disc format it says the widescreen material is recorded in a 4:3 format, but doesn't specify if it crops it, or distorts it.


....


About the DD5.1 - from all the available info and manuals so far, none of the models outputs 5.1 sound.

[westgate]

i just perused the man. for the ez17. its identical to the man. for es15. it will only record 16:9 on ram discs. oh well...

[rgazzara]

I don't either but, the alternative is that there simply isn't a big enough market for them to be interested in, in a big way. I don't like that alternative because the consequences are a vanishing technology.

I agree. There are new HDD DVD recorders in the UK with digital tuners (Panasonic, Pioneer, etc.) that are now showing up 2 years before the UK switches over to digital broadcasting.

[sivartk]

Every other disc format it says the widescreen material is recorded in a 4:3 format, but doesn't specify if it crops it, or distorts it.

Exactly it doesn't record the flag....so on a widescreen TV an original 16:9 show would be window boxed (black bars on all 4 sides)

[Budget_HT]

Exactly it doesn't record the flag....so on a widescreen TV an original 16:9 show would be window boxed (black bars on all 4 sides)
Have you tested this?

On my Pioneer DVD recorder, if I record an anamorphic program without a widescreen flag, it plays back fine on my 16:9 HDTV but it plays back full screen, tall and skinny, on a 4:3 screen.

Are you saying that the recording of a widescreen source on an integrated digital tuner/DVD recorder will behave differently?

I am not challenging here, I am curious to understand just how a widescreen HDTV program records and plays back with a new DVD recorder with a built-in digital tuner.

[sivartk]

I don't have that machine so I haven't tested it out. But the manual clearly states that it records 4:3 format, so I'm assuming that neither the TV nor the player (without the flag) would convert it (zoom) to fill the 16:9 screen. This is how many of my non-anamorphic widescreen DVD's playback on all my DVD players. (And I thought I was being smart in the late '90's purchasing the widescreen version...now I have to re-buy some great movies (Top Gun, Titanic, etc) again because they were not encoded with the flag when produced).

4:3 recordings should play back fine on a 16:9 TV, it will just be the widescreen recordings that will be window boxed.

[Budget_HT]

Actually, all DVD recorders record in "4x3 format," meaning they fill the 4x3 screen with whatever video signal was provided at the input of the recorder.

If the output of the digital tuner (internal to the DVD recorder) delivers a letterboxed picture, with the top and bottom black bars as part of the video within the 4x3 frame, then I agree with your description, Travis.

But if the output of the tuner fills the screen, resulting in anamorphic video from a widescreen source, then the recorded result will display full width on a widescreen TV, with or without any widescreen flag. The widescreen flag only affects how a DVD PLAYER, set up for a 4x3 TV, delivers video to the TV (letterboxed or pan-and-scan full screen).

Like you, I have some older DVD movies that "preserve the original widescreen presentation." These are not anamorphic and the top and bottom black bars are part or the recorded video. Fortunately I learned quickly about the difference between these and the true "enhanced for widescreen TV" anamorphic recordings. Those older DVDs look terrible on my HDTV because they have very poor vertical resolution, which is very apparent when you zoom the movie to fill the wide screen.

[RichBenn]

Actually, all DVD recorders record in "4x3 format," meaning they fill the 4x3 screen with whatever video signal was provided at the input of the recorder.

If the output of the digital tuner (internal to the DVD recorder) delivers a letterboxed picture, with the top and bottom black bars as part of the video within the 4x3 frame, then I agree with your description, Travis.

But if the output of the tuner fills the screen, resulting in anamorphic video from a widescreen source, then the recorded result will display full width on a widescreen TV, with or without any widescreen flag. The widescreen flag only affects how a DVD PLAYER, set up for a 4x3 TV, delivers video to the TV (letterboxed or pan-and-scan full screen).

Like you, I have some older DVD movies that "preserve the original widescreen presentation." These are not anamorphic and the top and bottom black bars are part or the recorded video. Fortunately I learned quickly about the difference between these and the true "enhanced for widescreen TV" anamorphic recordings. Those older DVDs look terrible on my HDTV because they have very poor vertical resolution, which is very apparent when you zoom the movie to fill the wide screen.

So for recording widescreen content from a digital tuner, how do we tell if any of the new recorders do anamorphic? This would seem to be a major feature!

[Budget_HT]

I don't know any of the details of the implementation of the new DVDRs with digital tuners.

There were some posts on AVSForum a year or more ago mentioning a new chip (or family?) intended to support this very application: HD/SD tuner feeding a 480i DVD recorder. IIRC, all was happening within the digital domain. What I don't recall seeing mentioned was the handling of widescreen source programs nor the handling of Dolby Digital 5.1 audio.

It would seem the opportunity is there to support both from a technical perspective, but there may be "political" opposition from content owners fearing exceptionally clean 480i video copies complete with DD 5.1 audio from HDTV broadcasts.

Also unclear to me is whether the current digital tuner DVDR offerings incorporate this technology or not, or whether they have incorporated a direct-replacement analog/digital tuner subassembly that plugs in where the analog-only (NTSC) tuner was in the past. The latter seems easier, faster and perhaps cheaper to bring to market since it does not require a major redesign of the overall DVDR. Perhaps these plug-in replacement A/D tuners are identical to those being deployed in inexpensive digital/analog SD TVs.

The new-chip integration opportunity might likely force a near-complete redesign to take advantage of its capabilities. If true (I am speculating here) then perhaps we might see this simpler, cheaper-in-the-long-run design in DVDR models for next year.

To answer the question asked, if I had a new digital-tuner DVDR, I would perform the following test to determine just how widescreen HD programs are handled in the recording process.

I would select an (HDTV widescreen) program to record from the internal digital tuner. I would then play back the resulting recording in multiple scenarios as follows.

First, I would try playback on a 16x9 screen with the DVD PLAYER (any player) set for a 16x9 TV. If the result is a full width widescreen presentation in proper proportions, then I believe we have achieved an anamorphic recording (desired result). On the other hand, if we see black bars on the top and bottom of the picture and it appears stretched horizontally ("short and fat") then the recording was made with the letterboxing/black bars included on the video (undesired result).

Second, I would playback the same recording on a 4x3 screen TV with the DVD PLAYER set for 4x3 screen and letterboxing of widescreen-flagged recordings. If we see letterboxing (and we started with an anamorphic recording as determined in the step above), then we have verified that the widescreen flag was preserved or set during recording and the DVD PLAYER recognized it to add the letterboxing (desired result). If the playback video is tall and skinny and full screen, then we lack the widescreen flag on the recording (undesired result). Note that we could also see a letterboxed view on a 4x3 TV if the recording was not anamorphic and instead included the black bars in the video. On the 4x3 TV, this would look the same as the desired result of the anamorphic recording being letterboxed within the DVD PLAYER. While this may be fine for 4x3 TV viewing, the same recording is not optimum for viewing on a 16x9 TV in full widescreen mode.

Third, I would playback the same recording on a 4x3 screen with the DVD PLAYER set for pan and scan. If we get a full screen picture in proper proportions, it means the sides of the original widescreen anamorphic picture have been cropped to fill the screen (desired result).

I hope this adequately addresses the question.

[jseahawk]

I purchased the LG DVD recorder. I've only had it a few days and I am not going to keep it. (more specific comments are in the "LG787T" thread)

This is my first DVD recorder, and in some ways it is less flexible that using VHS.

I'm leaning towards computer based recording. To me having a HDD recorder means maxing the storage at some point unless you have a way to archive (even if archive is not HD).

From reading discusson on the Autumn Wave On Air GT, everyone seems pretty happy with it.


A couple of weeks ago, I simply wanted record widscreen flagged OTA ATSC broadcasts and output to HDMI. You know - a modern VCR.

While waiting for the right product, I have come to realize that I would rather build a HTPC. It will record 720p and 1080i rather than just 480, and have vastly improved capabilities and upgradability for not much more money. I have built several PCs, so why would I want one of these overpriced limited boxes that will be a doorstop when it inevitably breaks down? I thought HTPCs would be too much of a hassle, but after looking into them it's a no-brainer and there's no turning back.

Still, the lack of available ATSC recorders from electronics manufacturers has had me wondering what is up. Philips has the only one coming out with a hard drive this year? No affordable non-subscription HDTV recorders available at all from anyone? What is up??? A halfway decently designed and marketed digital recorder box should fly off the shelves. Maybe the electronics manufacturers think they can't compete with computers in the digital recorder market long run and have mostly given up on investing in it, or maybe there aren't enough people like me who want to watch and record OTA HDTV. :confused:

[vferrari]

A couple of weeks ago, I simply wanted record widscreen flagged OTA ATSC broadcasts and output to HDMI. You know - a modern VCR.

While waiting for the right product, I have come to realize that I would rather build a HTPC. It will record 720p and 1080i rather than just 480, and have vastly improved capabilities and upgradability for not much more money. I have built several PCs, so why would I want one of these overpriced limited boxes that will be a doorstop when it inevitably breaks down? I thought HTPCs would be too much of a hassle, but after looking into them it's a no-brainer and there's no turning back.

Still, the lack of available ATSC recorders from electronics manufacturers has had me wondering what is up. Philips has the only one coming out with a hard drive this year? No affordable non-subscription HDTV recorders available at all from anyone? What is up??? A halfway decently designed and marketed digital recorder box should fly off the shelves. Maybe the electronics manufacturers think they can't compete with computers in the digital recorder market long run and have mostly given up on investing in it, or maybe there aren't enough people like me who want to watch and record OTA HDTV.

If you want to record HD without a subscription to a cable/satellite/Tivo DVR, then you have basically two choices: record to D-VHS tape or use an HTPC. However, until the Blu-Ray/HD DVD media wars settle down and home brew HD optical disc recording becomes more affordable, then your only choice to ARCHIVE to portable media is SD DVD at 480i (that HTPC HDD is going to fill up mighty fast with HD content so I hope you have a massive raid array planned or are using a decent compression codec). Most people here want to archive to DVD so the ATSC recorders fill the bill, but apparently don't serve as a decent HDMI source/outboard HD tuner to a monitor since they down convert and then upscale through the HDMI port. In that case you are best off with an outboard tuner feeding an HTPC or a built in tuner card. Though based on my experience with both the outboard standalone ATSC/QAM tuners tend to use the latest generation chipsets and have better features (e.g., built-in QAM tuner), sensitivity, interference rejection, and output quality vs. their PCI card or USB counterparts.

Good luck.

[vferrari]

I don't know any of the details of the implementation of the new DVDRs with digital tuners.

There were some posts on AVSForum a year or more ago mentioning a new chip (or family?) intended to support this very application: HD/SD tuner feeding a 480i DVD recorder. IIRC, all was happening within the digital domain. What I don't recall seeing mentioned was the handling of widescreen source programs nor the handling of Dolby Digital 5.1 audio....[snip]

...I hope this adequately addresses the question.

Dave,

Great post and a logical approach to verifying just how anamorphic widescreen recording is supported in any given recorder with a digital tuner.

[sivartk]

If you want to record HD without a subscription to a cable/satellite/Tivo DVR, then you have basically two choices: record to D-VHS tape or use an HTPC.

Well, there is one more choice...at least I consider it a choice because I can go to the store (Fry's) and still buy one that is new. The Sony DHG-HDD250 or DHG-HDD500. These have ATSC / QAM / NTSC tuners with a cable card slot and can record about 30 / 60 hours of HD respectively. I have two of them and they are great. Granted these are only a HD DVR, but no subscriptions and the widescreen flag is preserved over the s-video output, so burning to a DVD on a separate recorder is very possible.

[vferrari]

Well, there is one more choice...at least I consider it a choice because I can go to the store (Fry's) and still buy one that is new. The Sony DHG-HDD250 or DHG-HDD500. These have ATSC / QAM / NTSC tuners with a cable card slot and can record about 30 / 60 hours of HD respectively. I have two of them and they are great. Granted these are only a HD DVR, but no subscriptions and the widescreen flag is preserved over the s-video output, so burning to a DVD on a separate recorder is very possible.


You're right - forgot about those as they are practically impossible to get now.

Do you know if they are available online anywhere? Haven't been able to find one.

[Budget_HT]

Dave,

Great post and a logical approach to verifying just how anamorphic widescreen recording is supported in any given recorder with a digital tuner.
Thank you!

Perhaps if I can generate a few hundred more useful posts I might begin to catch up with your legacy of accurate and easy-to-understand posts in the DVD recorder arena.

I have learned lots from you and other folks posting here on the AVS Forum. That has served as good foundational knowledge for selecting DVDR products that match my needs and wants. Then the real knowledge comes from using them and testing various capabilities and interactions.

So, thank you for being one of a few sources that helped steer me in the right direction.

[E55 KEV]

You're right - forgot about those as they are practically impossible to get now.

Do you know if they are available online anywhere? Haven't been able to find one.

Many show up on Ebay. I have one used as a store demo if interested. PM me.

[jseahawk]

If you want to record HD without a subscription to a cable/satellite/Tivo DVR, then you have basically two choices: record to D-VHS tape or use an HTPC. However, until the Blu-Ray/HD DVD media wars settle down and home brew HD optical disc recording becomes more affordable, then your only choice to ARCHIVE to portable media is SD DVD at 480i (that HTPC HDD is going to fill up mighty fast with HD content so I hope you have a massive raid array planned or are using a decent compression codec). Most people here want to archive to DVD so the ATSC recorders fill the bill, but apparently don't serve as a decent HDMI source/outboard HD tuner to a monitor since they down convert and then upscale through the HDMI port. In that case you are best off with an outboard tuner feeding an HTPC or a built in tuner card. Though based on my experience with both the outboard standalone ATSC/QAM tuners tend to use the latest generation chipsets and have better features (e.g., built-in QAM tuner), sensitivity, interference rejection, and output quality vs. their PCI card or USB counterparts.

Good luck.
Thanks for the tuner advice. I am planning to get a VBox DTA-150 or 151 for the tuner. Is that one not as good as the external tuners for OTA? Do you recommend any specific models?

I'm aware of the choices (or lack of). HD wasn't even a requirement for me. 480i widescreen digital would have been good enough for recordings, but since I'm going to take the HTPC pluge the HD option will be nice for DVRing some programs. I have a 250GB 7200RPM drive I'm not using - so that will go into to the HTPC, and I can always add another. I don't care about archiving programs to HD-DVD or Blue Ray in HD resolutions, but that's another advantage of HTPCs...it can be added later.

[Thomas Desmond]

However, until the Blu-Ray/HD DVD media wars settle down and home brew HD optical disc recording becomes more affordable, then your only choice to ARCHIVE to portable media is SD DVD at 480i (that HTPC HDD is going to fill up mighty fast with HD content so I hope you have a massive raid array planned or are using a decent compression codec).

There is another alternative: DIVX HD (or the very similar XVID codec).

I've been archiving recorded HD content at 720P using DIVX at just under 5 mbps. A single layer DVD will hold just over 2 hours of HD content at these settings and looks very good when displayed over my 42" television.

For those who aren't satisfied with 2 hours per DVD, I've watched episodes of "Torchwood" recorded from the BBC-HD and encoded by others at 540P (540 x 960) and 2 mbps using XVID. While the result is not true HD, it is clearly "better than DVD" quality and looks quite good on my television. At these settings, a single layer DVD holds 5 hours of near-HD content.

As for playback options: DIVX or XVID encoded HD disks will play without problems on an HTPC or fast computer. They can also be played using the small number of HD-capable DIVX certified DVD players available in North America. Like many others, I am using the Avel IO Linkplayer, which sells for around $250.

As HD DVD formats (whether Blu Ray or HD-DVD) become more prevalent, I would expect that we'll see more players that support are certified for DIVX HD, which means that these recordings are "future proof" -- it should be possible to play them back on hardware that will be coming out for quite a few years.

This is not an ATSC recording and playback solution that will appeal to everyone -- like anything that involves a digital tuner card and archiving, it involves a certain amount of work. But for those who don't mind a bit of "do-it-yourself" work, it's a great solution. I've had my current set-up in place for a year and have been pleased by the performance I've gotten from it.

[fku]

are there HD-based DVRs like the Sony that a) can tune to atsc/qam and ntsc, and b) has non-subscription based guide?

thanks.

[vferrari]

There is another alternative: DIVX HD (or the very similar XVID codec).

That's basically what I was referring to when I mentioned "decent compression codec".

[gumby1]

A little update. Best Buy in south Texas and Walmart still dont have the Philips 3505. Walmart is doing a reset tomorrow in the DVD department and they might get them for that, according to the department guy.

Brian

[sivartk]

are there HD-based DVRs like the Sony that a) can tune to atsc/qam and ntsc, and b) has non-subscription based guide?

thanks.\

No, not that are current. They are all discontinued (LG LST-3410A) or discontinued and on clearance (Sony DHG-HDD250/500)

Otherwise you have to pay the Cable company, satellite company or TiVo gods for the privilege to record HD programming.

The only other alternative would be the D-VHS which was mentioned earlier.

[bobbyslav]

Yay! Finally found the Philips 3505 at my Walmart - 180 after tax. Just brought it home, and haven't played with it much. Right now recording Desperate Housewives. So far mixed feelings.

The good: The auto clock worked before I can finish hooking it up. Digital tuner seems great - better than the LG. Picture quality seems also better than the LG with the digital tuner (that's all I've had time to check so far). The remote control works good, and is much better than previous tries. It's been working for about an hour so far and has not heated at all. The coax and S-video out are active with the progressive scan on. Two sets of S-video in - one front one rear. Small and pretty light. Fairly attractive. Digital and analog channels are separated in different menus for scrolling.

Philips doesn't make a big deal out of it, but it appears that this model does have a QAM tuner. I am very proud of Philips for not trying to bull s... the consumer and is upfront about the SDTV tuner.

The not so good for now:

Feels a bit cheaply made. The connectors on the back don't seem to be stable, and when I pushed the plugs in place, the connectors gave in and sank a little in the panel.

I am still going to check this out, but the manual states that this record will not record signals in 16:9, it records everything in 4:3.

A bit sloat to load. Not the most intuitive menus. Disc management is counterintuitive - instead of using the disc menu to format a disc, you have to use the set up menu. I popped in a disc and it said it cannot record to that disc, after I played with it for a while, I went to the set up menu and erased the disc even though there was nothing on it, and then it worked.

The clock still can't be displayed with the disc in.

That's it for now. More to come as I play with it more.

[gumby1]

What part of the country are you in, if you dont mind me asking? Everything sounds good so far. Does it happen to have a USB connector on it anywhere?

Brian

[sivartk]

all I saw at my Wal-Mart today was the Panny EZ37 for $297, but with the Toshiba on pre-order for less, I passed.

[bobbyslav]

OK, a little more info. I am in Columbia, SC. They only had one, it was dumped on top of the 3390s and I tried to fool them into giving it to me for the 139, but they didn't go for it.

Definitely does not record anamorphic signals. It neither crops, nor stretches 16:9 programs, but records the black bars as a part of the program, so those scan lines are lost on a wide screen TV. Audio output is only PCM, no 5.1. No USB input either.

The digital info from HD channels is more thorough than what I had with the LG, the Philips gives a whole page of info, with a summary of the program. There is no program guide though.

Picture quality with commercial DVDs is excellent and the internal de-interlacing looks very clean. Moving around in menus and skipping chapter is painfully slow though. The remote is not very responsive and needs to be directly pointed at the recorder. As I already said disc management is retarded, but the editing options seem pretty good to me - I am not one to ever edit recordings though - there are options for splitting and merging titles, creating chapters, renaming, selecting thumbnails, hiding and deleting.

I still don't understand why can't the clock be shown at least in the tuner mode. I tried the region hacks from previous generations Philips recorders and players, but none of them worked :(

The menu structure is very much like Funai and all of its clones, I bet this 3505 is Funai with a purchased Philips name.

In letterbox ratio, 4:3 programs show in a small box in the middle of a standard TV screen, with my unit, on my TV the little box is not square, it is narrower in the top part.

There is a disc resume, but only for one disc and only if the disc is not ejected, it will resume from the last point if powered off though.

There are some weird options for HDMI that I had not seen before, and since I don't have an HDMI capable monitor, I have no idea what they do. One is HDMI select - RGB or YPbPr, and another is.... can't remember, something about normal or enhanced.

[ooofest]

Well, there is one more choice...at least I consider it a choice because I can go to the store (Fry's) and still buy one that is new. The Sony DHG-HDD250 or DHG-HDD500. These have ATSC / QAM / NTSC tuners with a cable card slot and can record about 30 / 60 hours of HD respectively. I have two of them and they are great. Granted these are only a HD DVR, but no subscriptions and the widescreen flag is preserved over the s-video output, so burning to a DVD on a separate recorder is very possible.

So, does that result in 480i widescreen on a DVD?

- ooofest

[Kelson]

It would seem a given that most if not all of the primetime digital content broadcast by the major networks will be in 16:9 format. So one would expect a DVDR designed to incorporate a digital ATSC tuner, would also be designed to properly handle 16:9 broadcasts knowing there is a broad mix of widescreen and conventional 4:3 TVs out in the field. Looks like these early models are having trouble with the proper handling of 16:9 content, which just adds another bit of support to my, and others, contention that these 1st gen models are little more than last years design with a drop-in ATSC tuner.

Many thanks to those who have dared to take the plunge and beta test these units. You have convinced me beyond a shadow of a doubt to pass entirely on gen-1 and sit on the sidelines until we see if things improve with gen-2.

[sivartk]

So, does that result in 480i widescreen on a DVD?

- ooofest

Yes, but since my DMR-E80H only records the flag on DVD-RAM, to get to a DVD-R, it takes some computer manipulation...I like editing on the commercials on the computer anyway, frame accurate, unlike my E80H.

[ftaok]

Well, there is one more choice...at least I consider it a choice because I can go to the store (Fry's) and still buy one that is new. The Sony DHG-HDD250 or DHG-HDD500. These have ATSC / QAM / NTSC tuners with a cable card slot and can record about 30 / 60 hours of HD respectively. I have two of them and they are great. Granted these are only a HD DVR, but no subscriptions and the widescreen flag is preserved over the s-video output, so burning to a DVD on a separate recorder is very possible.
sivartk,

I've been following your posts on this thread (and on the Sony DHG thread). It seems that you have a Panny 80H DVD-R. I'm interested in a budget DVD-R that handles anamorphic recording on standard media (i.e. DVD+/-R) through my Sony's s-video outputs.

Other than the Panny, do you know of a good quality DVD-R that can record using the anamorphic flag?

I routinely run out of space on my DHG-250 and would love to be able to offload stuff onto blank DVDs.

Thanks.

ft

[fku]

"No, not that are current. They are all discontinued (LG LST-3410A) or discontinued and on clearance (Sony DHG-HDD250/500)"

any idea where to get the LG or Sony, other than the bay?

[sivartk]

sivartk,

I've been following your posts on this thread (and on the Sony DHG thread). It seems that you have a Panny 80H DVD-R. I'm interested in a budget DVD-R that handles anamorphic recording on standard media (i.e. DVD+/-R) through my Sony's s-video outputs.

Other than the Panny, do you know of a good quality DVD-R that can record using the anamorphic flag?

I routinely run out of space on my DHG-250 and would love to be able to offload stuff onto blank DVDs.

Thanks.

ft
The Panny only maintains the flag on the HDD and DVD-RAM...since I do all my editing on my computer, I simply take the RAM to the PC and edit out the commercials (maintaining the flag).

Look at this thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=736599) where I go into detail my process.

[sivartk]

any idea where to get the LG or Sony, other than the bay?

The Fry's in Austin, TX had a couple about a week ago (I think 2 of each) on clearance, other than that, I don't know.

[Acteng]

The Samsung manual has just been posted on their website.

http://org.downloadcenter.samsung.com/downloadfile/ContentsFile.aspx?CDSite=SS&CttFileID=1392125&CDCttType=UM&ModelType=N&ModelName=DVD-AR650&VPath=UM/200704/20070402090631859_01378A-AR650-XAA-ENG-BM.pdf

They're calling it DVD-AR650.

It doesn't explicitly say that HD is down-converted and then upconverted.
The HDMI output supports 480/720p/1080i.
Timer recording and recording from the EPG is supported.
I can't tell if it supports simultaneous read/write on DVD-RAM (aka time-slip/chasing playback)

[RichBenn]

The Samsung manual has just been posted on their website.

http://org.downloadcenter.samsung.com/downloadfile/ContentsFile.aspx?CDSite=SS&CttFileID=1392125&CDCttType=UM&ModelType=N&ModelName=DVD-AR650&VPath=UM/200704/20070402090631859_01378A-AR650-XAA-ENG-BM.pdf

They're calling it DVD-AR650.

It doesn't explicitly say that HD is down-converted and then upconverted.
The HDMI output supports 480/720p/1080i.
Timer recording and recording from the EPG is supported.
I can't tell if it supports simultaneous read/write on DVD-RAM (aka time-slip/chasing playback)

Thanks for posting that. I'd like to know if simultaneous read/writes are supported too! Did their previous model have that?

[roger1818]

bobbyslav, One thing that concerns me about the Philips recorder that maybe you can comment on is switching between the analog and digital tuners. According to the manual there is a TV/DTV button that you need to press and it will spend 10 seconds scanning the channels. This seems to me like a major pain for those of us who can't receive all channels digitally. To me the switching between analog and digital tuners should be automatic and shouldn't require a re-scan. Is there something that I am missing?

[bobbyslav]

bobbyslav, One thing that concerns me about the Philips recorder that maybe you can comment on is switching between the analog and digital tuners. According to the manual there is a TV/DTV button that you need to press and it will spend 10 seconds scanning the channels. This seems to me like a major pain for those of us who can't receive all channels digitally. To me the switching between analog and digital tuners should be automatic and shouldn't require a re-scan. Is there something that I am missing?


It's not as bad as you're thinking, but it's not great either. I actually like the DTV/TV buttons, because it makes direct access to channels easier. Let me try to explain...

The first recorder I tried - LG DR787T - didn't have that button, and all available channels, both HD and NTSC, were together and to get from one kind to the other you have to scroll through them all. That meant that if you wanted to directly access a channel, it was harder if that channel number exists at both types - HD and NTSC.

What the Philips does, is keep the HD channels in one folder, and the NTSC in a separate folder, with the DTV/TV button you select which type of channels you'd like to watch. It certainly does NOT rescan all channels every time, when you press the button it changes to the last channel you watched the last time you were using the opposite tuner.


Now the bad part is.... actually there are a few. First of all the tuner is pretty weak. I can't tune FOX at all, no matter what I do with the antenna, I can't pick up some of the sub channels either, and I can't pick up CW. The last one I couldn't pick up with the LG either, but I had no problems with FOX while it was working.

The NTSC tuner is weak as well, the reception I get with my TV's tuner is much better.

Changing DTV channels is very slow. Every time you change the channel it says "scanning" and it could take up to like 10 seconds, depending on the signal strength. Also when you scroll through the channels, both the DTV or the NTSC, the external inputs are treated like channels, and to skip from the highest channel back to the lowest, you first have to go through IN1, IN2, DV, and then it circles back to the lowest available channel. Very annoying.

The other stupid thing is that when you power on, if there is a disc in the machine, it won't let you do anything until the disc initializes and starts playing. Then you have to stop, and you better do it quick, before the FBI warnings, because once those start it won't let you stop them until the main menu appears. It could take an awful long time before you can even get to the tuner.

[roger1818]

Thanks bobbyslav. You are right and it isn't as bad as it sounds, but it still doesn't sound good. If I wanted to have the channels split up into two lists, I would want to be able to select them myself and not have them set for me based on whether they are analog or digital. I see this as being something that would confuse my wife so I will have to avoid the Phillips. To bad because they are the only company making one with a HDD this year. I guess I will have to wait for next year.

[Chuck44]

Thanks bobbyslav. You are right and it isn't as bad as it sounds, but it still doesn't sound good. If I wanted to have the channels split up into two lists, I would want to be able to select them myself and not have them set for me based on whether they are analog or digital. I see this as being something that would confuse my wife so I will have to avoid the Phillips. To bad because they are the only company making one with a HDD this year. I guess I will have to wait for next year.
Can't the channels in memory be added to or deleted?
With my atsc/ntsc TV I deleted all the analog channels
(except for two that don't yet have a digital signal) and
only kept the digital ones. Really simplifies things. :)

[roger1818]

Can't the channels in memory be added to or deleted?
With my atsc/ntsc TV I deleted all the analog channels
(except for two that don't yet have a digital signal) and
only kept the digital ones. Really simplifies things. :)

The problem is you can't have any analog channels in the digial list and you can't have any digital channels in the analog list. When in analog mode, the only way to get a digital channel is to switch to digital mode and vice versa. It sounds like Phillips decided to add a digital tuner to the existing analog tunner instead of replacing it with a dual analog/digital tuner.

[jtbell]

I can't pick up CW.

That's because they have a really puny transmitter over in Sumter that probably can't even reach most of Columbia, let alone all the way up here. They've supposedly got a higher-power transmitter under construction in the same area where most of the other Columbia transmitters are located (just past Fort Jackson), but I haven't seen any progress reports.

[bobbyslav]

That's because they have a really puny transmitter over in Sumter that probably can't even reach most of Columbia, let alone all the way up here. They've supposedly got a higher-power transmitter under construction in the same area where most of the other Columbia transmitters are located (just past Fort Jackson), but I haven't seen any progress reports.

Ah!! Cool. I had no idea. It's odd that in analog, the CW is the only channel I can get clearly.

[roger1818]

I would select an (HDTV widescreen) program to record from the internal digital tuner. I would then play back the resulting recording in multiple scenarios as follows.

I would be tempted to do a similar set of tests with a program broadcast in 4:3 (both from an analog channel and from a digital WS or HD channel). Optimally when playing it back on a 4:3 TV with the DVD PLAYER set for 4x3 screen and letterboxing of widescreen-flagged recordings. If it windowboxes (both letterboxes and pillerboxes) the program, the anamorphic bit was set inapropriately and horizontal detail has been lost. This shouldn't happen on an analog channel, but on a WS or HD digital channel, the recorder may not know that the program is actually in 4:3 and the pillerboxes should be removed.

[sivartk]

I wish they all had the TV/DTV switch. One of my HDTV's (my parents are using it) has this. What is nice is that if I want to watch a DTV channel (say 24), I just hit the DTV button and "24" and it assumes 24-1. Now with my Vizio TV, I have to enter 24-1 every time. (they are in the same list). Just entering 24 will get me the snowy analog channel. If you don't hit the dash (-) quick enough it assumes analog and switches.

[bobbyslav]

I checked Target today again, hoping they'll have the Panasonic EZ17, but not yet. I saw it's available on line now... too bad they haven't been sending those 10% off emails lately. The shelves with the DVD recorders were almost completely empty, just the display models were still there, and a bunch of Memorexes on clearance. I am hoping soon they'll flood with new models.

Honestly I could put up with the few quirks of the Philips if it would tune all the digital channels around. The playback picture is really top notch, and it's been quite stable over all so far. Maybe I should try a different antenna, I don't know...

[bobbyslav]

An interesting little info on the tuner chip in the LG DR787T:

LG INNOTEK MODULE

The LG Innotek module is a multi-functional Digital Tuner Module that includes the Microtune MT2131 tuner, an analog/digital demodulator and an MPEG decoder. It receives the NTSC, ATSC (8VSB) and QAM broadcasting signals. The Module also deploys an RF modulator which gives the consumer 3/4 channel RF output. It is implemented with the LG Electronics D2A chip (LGDT1111A); the video output is CVBS and the audio output is SPDIF/I2S. The module is small (only 115x40x14mm), enabling a reduced box size for the LG Super Multi DVD Recorders. The module supports standard definition video and high-definition video is expected to be available soon.

LG SUPER MULTI DVD RECORDERS

LG Electronics new DVD recorders are designed to provide consumers with the ultimate recording and playback flexibility. They include the Digital Tuner Super Multi DVD Recorder & VCR (model number RC797T), which offers a convenient combination of DVD recorder and VCR. It gives consumers the power to record a wide variety of sources onto any of the major blank DVD disc formats available in the market. The LG Digital Tuner Super Multi DVD Recorder (model number DR787T), offers an identical feature set without the integrated Video Cassette Recorder (VCR).

3-IN-1 TUNER FROM MICROTUNE

At the heart of the TV capability in the LG Innotek module is the MicroTuner MT2131 tuner, Microtune's flagship analog/digital/tuner. The 3-in-1 tuner is engineered to deliver excellent performance across all U.S. TV standards: ATSC, NTSC and Digital Cable Ready (DCR). The MT2131 tuner enables consumers to capture and record their analog and digital TV programs across either cable or terrestrial broadcasts. Manufacturers such as LG can deploy Microtune's single, flexible tuner to cost-effectively smooth the digital transition across all kinds of TV electronics.

[jtbell]

That's because they [CW] have a really puny transmitter over in Sumter that probably can't even reach most of Columbia,

Oops, I should have waited until I got home to post that. That's the MyNetworkTV station (WKTC 63). The CW station (WZRB 47) doesn't have any digital signal at all, and doesn't even have a second channel allotted to it for digital. Apparently they came on line after the original distribution of digital channels. They're supposed to do a "flash cut" in February 2009, that is, shut down their analog transmitter on channel 47 and fire up a digital one in its place.

[indyjack]

I returned my EZ17 and here are my observations:
The picture was a little below 480p quality.
I would have liked to have a zoom function especially since the unit recorded
the bottom and top bars with different sizes.
The unit recorded bars even using DVD-Ram. The show didn't have the bars.
I had a missed program and a program recorded at an unviewable speed.
These were timed recordings and did not have problem with regular recordings.
As one of the first to buy this unit, I don't know if the problems are just my unit
or not.
I always liked panasonic and have the E95H model plus a plasma and was really
surprised by the non-response from their help line. I was told that my problems
were due to a dirty head. I asked for their tech support and was told that I would
hear from them in 24 hours. Still no call back.
I am going to avoid these first units until I hear that they get their act together.

[Kelson]

I checked Target today again, hoping they'll have the Panasonic EZ17, but not yet. I saw it's available on line now... too bad they haven't been sending those 10% off emails lately. The shelves with the DVD recorders were almost completely empty, just the display models were still there, and a bunch of Memorexes on clearance. I am hoping soon they'll flood with new models.

Honestly I could put up with the few quirks of the Philips if it would tune all the digital channels around. The playback picture is really top notch, and it's been quite stable over all so far. Maybe I should try a different antenna, I don't know...Have you thought of putting an amplifier on the antenna? I am strictly OTA with an antenna in the attic. I have a 40dB Radio Shack amplifier in-line that does wonders with my weak signals.

[bobbyslav]

Have you thought of putting an amplifier on the antenna? I am strictly OTA with an antenna in the attic. I have a 40dB Radio Shack amplifier in-line that does wonders with my weak signals.

LOL... Honestly, I use the term "antenna" very loosely, because it's something I totally made up. I use two metal brackets, connected with plain speaker wires, which then go into a signal amplifier (some Philips I had bought at Walmart long time ago, can't remember the strength). So yeah, basically it's not the best solution, but in my diffence I did try a real antenna first, and there was absolutely no difference. I thought I'd save myself the $30 for the antenna since I already had the amplifier.

The reason I am complaining is that even though I know I am not exactly using what's probably best, the LG recorder tuned FOX and all the sub channels just fine. Of course once its internal parts started melting the machine starting messing up everything and eventually couldn't keep signal for more than a few seconds.

But there is just no way I am spending $100 on antenna, another 100 on a rotor, then trying to find a freakin ladder, climbing on my roof, breaking my neck, paying health bills, and what not to watch FOX!!

When I add the cost of an antenna to the cost of the recorder it just really doesn't make sense financially anymore. For that kind of money I could get 2 years of satellite.

[DrBri99]

After having the LG for a week now and recording some shows, I've come to the conclusion that VCR's are still pretty good.

I mostly record sports when I can't watch, play it back that night, and record over the next day.

Since most sports programs are longer that 2 hours, you must record using very low quality. When played back it is just awful, really not any better than a VCR.

[DrBri99]

LOL... Honestly, I use the term "antenna" very loosely, because it's something I totally made up. I use two metal brackets, connected with plain speaker wires, which then go into a signal amplifier (some Philips I had bought at Walmart long time ago, can't remember the strength). So yeah, basically it's not the best solution, but in my diffence I did try a real antenna first, and there was absolutely no difference. I thought I'd save myself the $30 for the antenna since I already had the amplifier.


I live 20 miles from a 5 megawatt analog station which overloads my tuner with an amplifier, I'm still able to get distant stations (75 miles) with a quality antenna and no amplifier.

I got lucky and purchased a channel master 4228 antenna used, and I already had an antenna mount on the roof. I'm also lucky since all digitals in my area are UHF.

[Chuck44]

...But there is just no way I am spending $100 on antenna, another 100 on a rotor, then trying to find a freakin ladder, climbing on my roof, breaking my neck, paying health bills, and what not to watch FOX!!...
All you need for DTV is a UHF antenna, which should be a lot less than $100. :)

[TimSH]

All you need for DTV is a UHF antenna, which should be a lot less than $100. :)

Bah! ... sorry, just blew coffee out my nose.

I wish that were true everywhere. Our local NBC affiliate is VHF. Even worse, the digital channel they were assigned is.... wait for it.... 2!

This blows!

I live in a high rise and am going to try to rig up an antenna on my balcony. 7 stories up. Hopefully, it will be enough for me to pull it in.

[bobbyslav]

Well I don't know what kind of antenna I need, nor what I tried, but as I said I did try an antenna, and it made absolutely no difference. If anything my simple two bracket solution made things better, because I hooked them up to independant wires and can put them far enough apart to pick up signals from different directions.

I have no idea where the transmitting towers are. How do I find out? I am guessing they can't be too far away. I live pretty much down town and SC is as flat as Mischa Barton, so shouldn't be too hard to pick up signals. No high rises around me either.

[roger1818]

An interesting little info on the tuner chip in the LG DR787T:

Thanks bobbyslav! Very interesting!

LG INNOTEK MODULE

... the video output is CVBS ...

I wasn't sure what CVBS was so I did a Google on it and found the following from Wikipedia:

Composite video is often designated by the CVBS acronym, meaning either "Color, Video, Blank and Sync", "Composite Video Baseband Signal", "Composite Video Burst Signal", or "Composite Video with Burst and Sync".

This confirms something that I was starting to become suspicious of. That some, if not all, of these DVD recorders are taking the digital broadcast and converting it to an analog signal. The analog signal is then converted back to a digital signal to be recorded. Originally I was expecting it to be a fully digital recording process (with digital down conversion) but that doesn't seem to be the case. Not good!

[highheater]

It would seem a given that most if not all of the primetime digital content broadcast by the major networks will be in 16:9 format. So one would expect a DVDR designed to incorporate a digital ATSC tuner, would also be designed to properly handle 16:9 broadcasts knowing there is a broad mix of widescreen and conventional 4:3 TVs out in the field. Looks like these early models are having trouble with the proper handling of 16:9 content, which just adds another bit of support to my, and others, contention that these 1st gen models are little more than last years design with a drop-in ATSC tuner.

Many thanks to those who have dared to take the plunge and beta test these units. You have convinced me beyond a shadow of a doubt to pass entirely on gen-1 and sit on the sidelines until we see if things improve with gen-2.

Is it too much to ask that the second generation models:

1) Pass HD signal out
2) Include a DVR
3) Pass anamorphic signal

Any chance someone from the manufacturers might actually read this?

[roger1818]

I have no idea where the transmitting towers are. How do I find out? I am guessing they can't be too far away. I live pretty much down town and SC is as flat as Mischa Barton, so shouldn't be too hard to pick up signals. No high rises around me either.

The easiest way is with AntennaWeb (http://www.antennaweb.org). Just enter you Zip code and answer some simple questions and you should get a list of stations and the type of antenna you should use to receive them. It has some limitations, but it is easy to use.

[bobbyslav]

The easiest way is with AntennaWeb (http://www.antennaweb.org). Just enter you Zip code and answer some simple questions and you should get a list of stations and the type of antenna you should use to receive them. It has some limitations, but it is easy to use.


Yeah, I've tried antenna web. I don't understand a word of what they're saying. All I got is that I need some humongous monstrosity with a rotor to be mounted on my roof. I didn't like that site at all.

[roger1818]

Is it too much to ask that the second generation models:

1) Pass HD signal out
2) Include a DVR
3) Pass anamorphic signal
I would like to add:

4) fully digital recording without converting to analog and back to digital.

Any chance someone from the manufacturers might actually read this?

Probably not. ;)

[fku]

"Is it too much to ask that the second generation models:"

it is interesting that actually some models do that, the Sony DHG for example. Not sure why they died.

I don't really need to record shows on DVDs - it is nice feature to have. All I need is:

a) pass through of HD signals (ATSC/QAM+NTSC), both video and audio;
b) schedule-based recording of shows onto hard drive;
c) a DVD - player / recorder would be nice but not a must.

essentially a TiVo S3 minus monthly subscription fee.

[Kelson]

This confirms something that I was starting to become suspicious of. That some, if not all, of these DVD recorders are taking the digital broadcast and converting it to an analog signal. The analog signal is then converted back to a digital signal to be recorded. Originally I was expecting it to be a fully digital recording process (with digital down conversion) but that doesn't seem to be the case. Not good!Not necessarily, but highly probable. This is exactly what one would expect if you take last years model and drop in an ATSC/NTSC combo tuner in it's place. Last years design expected to receive analog from the tuner to feed into the DAC and MPEG encoder. A drop-in digital tuner would have to deliver the same. Wait for gen-2 or possibly -3.

Then again, it may be longer. As long as the unit needs to have an NTSC tuner (during crossover to 2/09) it has to have a DAC and handle analog signals. It might be cheaper to continue with the current design of having an analog signal come out of the tuner for conventional processing. If the major players become the chinese/korean and walmart/target become the main retailers for these, then don't expect a whole lot more. This, of course, would completely preclude any glimmer of HD pass-through.

[roger1818]

Yeah, I've tried antenna web. I don't understand a word of what they're saying. All I got is that I need some humongous monstrosity with a rotor to be mounted on my roof. I didn't like that site at all.

This is getting way off topic, but AntennaWeb is very conservative with antenna requirements and reception results. I would use it to find the the direction and distance of the transmission towers. Another alternative is 2150.com (http://www.2150.com/broadcast/default.asp) but you need to know your co-ordinates and the Magnetic Declination (http://www.geolab.nrcan.gc.ca/geomag/apps/mdcal_e.php) for your location.

[bobbyslav]

Maybe I'll try to decypher antenna web again. I just didn't get the whole color guide, antenna type and so on. It seems way too complicated to get over the air channels.

I am not one to start conspiracy theories, but doesn't it seem that the industry is trying to make it as hard as possible for us to get anything for free?

[wildwillie6]

The Samsung manual has just been posted on their website.

http://org.downloadcenter.samsung.com/downloadfile/ContentsFile.aspx?CDSite=SS&CttFileID=1392125&CDCttType=UM&ModelType=N&ModelName=DVD-AR650&VPath=UM/200704/20070402090631859_01378A-AR650-XAA-ENG-BM.pdf

They're calling it DVD-AR650.


Would you guess that this one passes an HDTV signal, based on this clip from the owner's manual?

[Chuck44]

Would you guess that this one passes an HDTV signal, based on this clip from the owner's manual?
That's what it looks like...

[Acteng]

Would you guess that this one passes an HDTV signal, based on this clip from the owner's manual?

They're probably talking about the up-convert circuit resolution. There's no information as to whether they down-convert and then up-convert when watching live HD. I'd guess they probably are not passing true HD through. Output over component is limited to 480p.

This is a strange unit. No mention of a chase-play feature even with DVD-RAM. It appears to output 5.1 sound when watching live HD and pre-recorded DVDs...? The timer/EPG looks to be more robust than other ATSC DVDRs released so far. And check out the pages of options for setting up the look of the subtitles... an odd mix of features.

[bobbyslav]

I see no indication of true HD output. The program guide looks great though. The Philips 3505 has the custom menu for the backgrounds etc too.

As I've said before, I am sure if a recorder did output true HD the maker would make sure we know it. Since there is no mention one way or the other, I'd bet money it will be downconverted HD.

[saywhat]

Then again, it may be longer. As long as the unit needs to have an NTSC tuner (during crossover to 2/09) it has to have a DAC and handle analog signals.

Doesn't the recorder continue to have, after the analog shut off date, DAC and mpeg encoder since there are other analog inputs (s-video or composite) to record from. So we are basically stuck with digital - analog - digital atsc recordings for the foreseeable future. :(

[Davinleeds]

Samsung DVD-AR650 at Walmart this morning, still boxed. No display unit - all in their shipping box.

[tomanystraydogs]

Question: If using something like the Toshiba D-R550, which upconverts, will it upconvert rf-in sd basic cable when just using it as a tuner or does the upconversion process only happen when it records?

tia

[krholmberg]

I got tired of waiting for a DVD-R that passes HD material when not recording. I finally ordered a Samsung 260 unit. A lot of good things have been written about it. If I end up getting a DVD-R unit, I'll need the extra tuner to watch one show while recording another on my FP anyways, so this just buys me more time. I'll probably just wait for a HDD/DVD-R that passes HD signals, records HD to the HDD and only downconverts when recording to DVD. That'll probably take another year or so to come out, but by then maybe there'll be good recordable HD-DVD or Blu-Ray players.

[Chuck44]

Question: If using something like the Toshiba D-R550, which upconverts, will it upconvert rf-in sd basic cable when just using it as a tuner or does the upconversion process only happen when it records?

tia
I thought upconversion only happened during play...

[bobbyslav]

Samsung DVD-AR650 at Walmart this morning, still boxed. No display unit - all in their shipping box.

Price by any chance?

[tomanystraydogs]

I thought upconversion only happened during play...

Good point, should have added that to the mix.

Perhaps upconversion only happens when playing standard dvd's?

[sivartk]

I thought upconversion only happened during play...

So using a chase play feature, you would get a resolution change when you "caught up" ??

[Rammitinski]

I'm just curious - has anyone made recordings through the built-in tuner with one of these new models from a good HD source, and played it back, upconverted, on a display with a good scaler? If so, just how good can it actually look?

If it looks at least as good as a decent DVD, I wouldn't think that would be a bad thing.

[bobbyslav]

I'm just curious - has anyone made recordings through the built-in tuner with one of these new models from a good HD source, and played it back, upconverted, on a display with a good scaler? If so, just how good can it actually look?

If it looks at least as good as a decent DVD, I wouldn't think that would be a bad thing.


I don't know what you mean by good HD source, but I've tried two of them - Philips and LG. My recorder is hooked to an InFocus 4805 with Faroudja DCD-i, which is one of the best scalers there are, but again the projector is only 480p.

What I've recorded is Desperate Housewives on both Philips and LG, and Prison break, only on the LG, because the Philips won't tune FOX for some reason.

The picture from LG was definitely very poor no matter what you do with it. It was very soft, grainy, and dark, and didn't even remotely resemble DVD quality. It did, however properly flag anamorphic widescreen recordings, thus preserving full resolution.

The picture from the Philips is from entirely different league altogether, it's very crisp and detailed. But with wide screen material it doesn't record properly and treats the black bars as part of the picture, thus wasting some of the scan lines normally used for actual material.

Overall recordings with the Philips, and live TV look quite well, but definitely not DVD quality.

Neither of course records the 5.1 audio either, so no way to get close in that aspect.

[Erik Garci]

I would like to add:

4) fully digital recording without converting to analog and back to digital.
One more:

5) recording of original digital audio, including 5.1, without recompressing it or encrypting it

[Rammitinski]

I don't know what you mean by good HD source....I just meant something higher rez and reasonably free of artifacts - preferably OTA.

Not like your average, D* HD-Lite mpeg2 stuff :rolleyes: .

Thanks.

[bobbyslav]

I just meant something higher rez and reasonably free of artifacts - preferably OTA.

Not like your average, D* HD-Lite mpeg2 stuff :rolleyes: .

Thanks.


Well all I tried was OTA, prime time dramas. Hope that helps. Definitely not DVD quality.

[Davinleeds]

Price by any chance?
$219 I think that was SRP on Samsung's Jan news release.

[Chuck44]

Well all I tried was OTA, prime time dramas. Hope that helps. Definitely not DVD quality.
I read in another thread that different networks broadcast HD
at different resolution...

[sivartk]

I read in another thread that different networks broadcast HD
at different resolution...


Very true...I can pick up 2 ABC Affiliates (towns about 90 miles away) and one has zero sub channels, while the other has 2 SD sub channels. The one with zero sub-channels will send out DD 5.1 when available, the one with 2 sub-channels always just sends out DD 2.0.

I've also seen lower quality for one of the distance OTA stations from me as the CBS and CW are on the same channels (-1 and -2). When they are both showing HD feeds, you can see a big difference between them and my closer locals which are on separate channels.

[kingpcgeek]

I read in another thread that different networks broadcast HD
at different resolution...
Both of the formats are much higher then DVD quality which is at most 480p. The networks either broadcast in 720p or 1080i. Fox & ABC use 720p. CBS & NBC use 1080i

[sivartk]

Both of the formats are much higher then DVD quality which is at most 480p. The networks either broadcast in 720p or 1080i. Fox & ABC use 720p. CBS & NBC use 1080i

That's what the networks send out, but what bitrate does the local station transmit, is the big question.

[bobbyslav]

So just so that I don't miss out on anything, I decided to try hooking up the cable line for my internet to the Philips as well. I have cable internet, but don't pay for cable, so the signal is filtered out. I tried the same thing with the LG and it couldn't do anything so I wasn't expecting much.

But what do you know! The Philips tuned perfectly all available clear QAM channels as well as 5 or 6 analog from the basic cable. I haven't counted them yet, but it's a lot of channels because it gets all the music channels plus all local HD channels!

I am starting to love Philips again.

[Chuck44]

...I am starting to love Philips again.
Since I plan on buying a DVDR3575H/37
just as soon as they're avaliable, that's nice to hear. :)

[Sean Nelson]

...If it looks at least as good as a decent DVD, I wouldn't think that would be a bad thing.Don't get your hopes up. The quality of the source signal isn't the only issue, another (and perhaps more significant) issue is the on-the-fly MPEG2 encoders used in consumer recorders. An on-the-fly encoder, even a really good one, is never going to do as good a job as the multi-pass optimizing encoders used to create a DVD master, so you're never going to see the same level of quality from a home recorder, no matter how good the source is.

You might be able to get DVD quality from a multi-pass encoder running on a PC, though, assuming you've recorded the original in an uncompressed format that the encoder can chew on.

[Kelson]

Don't get your hopes up. The quality of the source signal isn't the only issue, another (and perhaps more significant) issue is the on-the-fly MPEG2 encoders used in consumer recorders. An on-the-fly encoder, even a really good one, is never going to do as good a job as the multi-pass optimizing encoders used to create a DVD master, so you're never going to see the same level of quality from a home recorder, no matter how good the source is.

You might be able to get DVD quality from a multi-pass encoder running on a PC, though, assuming you've recorded the original in an uncompressed format that the encoder can chew on.I might argue that a bit. What a good multi-pass PC encoder gives you most is wide dynamic range so you can produce high video quality recordings at an economical average bitrate. The bitrates can go from 100 Kbps to 9Mbps so scenes with high action can get way more bitrate than the average 5Mbps you would get with an SP recording made with a single-pass hardware encoder.

But how much bitrate is enough? From papers I have read, the concensus seems to be that 9-10Mbps is the tops -- encoding with higher bitrates than 9-10Mbps does not yield perceptable improvement in video quality. Hence recording on a DVDR at XP quality (~9Mbps with low dynamic range) is about as good as it gets and should very faithfully reproduce a 480i down-rez from an HD source. That, of course, assumes the DVD recorder you are using is not a piece of crap from one of our favorite asian sources.

[gumby1]

But what do you know! The Philips tuned perfectly all available clear QAM channels as well as 5 or 6 analog from the basic cable. I haven't counted them yet, but it's a lot of channels because it gets all the music channels plus all local HD channels!

I am starting to love Philips again.

This is what I was curious about. I boght a 32" HP TV for my bedroom and I have basic cable. I hooked up the coax and told it to scan. It took about 15 minutes or so, it seemed, and I wondered why. Much to my amazement it picked up all of the local cable channels, as I suspected, but it also picked up about 20 or so digital channels including all of the local channels in HD. Amazing picture. That was my first ATSC/QAM tuner. Awesome. I was definitely hoping to have the same results with the Philips 3505 or 3575. If not it would not be worth buying for my application. I do not currently have a nice TV in my living room, but that is where the Philips is going. Thanks, bobbyslav.
Went to Walmart again tonight and they still do not have the new stock. I did find the shelf plan laying on the shelf and it did mention the 3505 as well as the 3575, so there is still hope.

PS Bobbyslav, if you need help with the antenaweb, PM me and I think I can help.

Brian

[bobbyslav]

PS Bobbyslav, if you need help with the antenaweb, PM me and I think I can help.

Brian

Thanks Brian, I appreciate it, but now I found out I could just split the cable from my modem and feed it to the 3505. This eliminated the need for an antenna all together. Now I have about 15 channels - not counting the stupid music ones. I get all local channels, except for FOX! I wonder if their transmitter is down or something since I was unable to tune it OTA and now from the cable either. Getting a bunch of other channels, among them Discovery HD and MTV!

One thing I don't understand is why am I not getting any program info from the digital channels from the cable line? I loved the detailed info from OTA and kind of miss it now. Because of the program guide I am still thinking about trying the Samsung. OK, it's not just that, I also like its design better than just about any of the new models.

[gumby1]

I dont get any program info from the cable line either. Makes it kind of a hassle. I am used to satellite with lots of programming info. I have satellite in the living room right now and basic cable throughout the rest of the house. I do not get Discovery HD. That would be one of my favorites I'm sure. I will also miss ESPN HD. Oh well, cant complain too much about the free channels :) I also get the pay per view channels and get to watch whatever my neighbors are watching I guess. Interesting. Are you saying that the Samsung has a built in EPG? That would be a big help. Which model if so?

Brian

[bobbyslav]

A new model that was discussed further up in the thread. I am thinking DVD-AR650. Somebody had posted a link to the manual and it says it has a program guide. Another person said he'd seen it already at Walmart. I might go by there again tomorrow to check it out.

[DanielCard]

According to wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_program_guide#Intellectual_property_rights
Any device that includes an EPG must pay a $9 per device royalty fee. :(

[gumby1]

OK, thanks, I have been hounding my local wally worlds and BB's for a week or so now. Will check again tomorrow.

Brian

[ttinLV]

I just meant something higher rez and reasonably free of artifacts - preferably OTA.

Not like your average, D* HD-Lite mpeg2 stuff :rolleyes: .

Thanks.

I would think some of the really boring PBS-HD "field of flowers" type programs are the undisputed best PQ OTA that is available. I know that those programs always have me in awe even at 3 feet away from a 50" 720p plasma.

[Rammitinski]

I would think some of the really boring PBS-HD "field of flowers" type programs are the undisputed best PQ OTA that is available. I know that those programs always have me in awe even at 3 feet away from a 50" 720p plasma.Yeah, I actually have a few of those types of shows on my HD Sony DVR. I can dub from it into my SD Sony DVR/DVD recorder through component, and then out to the TV through the same, but I just wondered if you might get even better results with everything built-in to one unit, then sent to the display through HDMI.

About that guide in the Samsung - assuming it does have it, I wonder if you can set recordings through it? I'd imagine that would be expecting waaay too much.

[Sean Nelson]

I might argue that a bit. What a good multi-pass PC encoder gives you most is wide dynamic range so you can produce high video quality recordings at an economical average bitrate.It's not just about bitrates, it's also about intelligently allocating the bits to the parts of the image that need them. Multi-pass encoders have the advantage of being able to "look ahead" in the video stream to see what's coming and allocate the bits where they're needed. And, since they don't need to operate in real time, they have the ability to use more sophisticated algorithms than are possible when you have to pump the bits out as fast as they're coming in.

From papers I have read, the concensus seems to be that 9-10Mbps is the tops -- encoding with higher bitrates than 9-10Mbps does not yield perceptable improvement in video quality.There will always be some extreme cases, particularly involving complex images with a lot of motion, where a higher bitrate will yield a better result. The significance of 10Mpbs for DVDs is that it's the maximum rate specified by the DVD standard. All DVD players must be able to process audio/video stream which supplies data up to that rate, but beyond that there's no guarantee that the player will be able to keep up. Therefore, you should never see a DVD with a rate that exceeds 10Mbps.

I think it was Bobkart who used encoder and authoring software on his computer to experiment with creating DVDs that exceeded the maximum rate. I seem to recall that he managed to get up to about 15Mbps before his player copped out on him.

[Kelson]

It's not just about bitrates, it's also about intelligently allocating the bits to the parts of the image that need them. Multi-pass encoders have the advantage of being able to "look ahead" in the video stream to see what's coming and allocate the bits where they're needed. And, since they don't need to operate in real time, they have the ability to use more sophisticated algorithms than are possible when you have to pump the bits out as fast as they're coming in. Isn't that what I just said? Wide dynamic range means effectively allocating the bitrate where it is needed.What a good multi-pass PC encoder gives you most is wide dynamic range so you can produce high video quality recordings at an economical average bitrate. The bitrates can go from 100 Kbps to 9Mbps so scenes with high action can get way more bitrate than the average 5Mbps you would get with an SP recording made with a single-pass hardware encoder.

There will always be some extreme cases, particularly involving complex images with a lot of motion, where a higher bitrate will yield a better result. The significance of 10Mpbs for DVDs is that it's the maximum rate specified by the DVD standard.Yes, and I remember bobkarts posts. A commercial DVD encodes at an average bitrate of ~6-7Mbps, but when you analyze the realtime bitrate it varies from ~100Kbps to ~9Mbps -- very wide dynamic range. The point I was making is that from the papers I read, a bitrate of 9-10Mbps (the top end for DVDs) is the point of diminishing returns. They claim that even for scenes with high motion, an encoding bitrate that exceeds 10Mbps does not produce perceptable improvement in video quality. As pertains to the original question by Rammitinski, a DVDR recording at HQ mode is ~9Mbps average bitrate with narrow dynamic range -- essentially constant bitrate at the point of diminishing returns. As long as the MPEG encoder chip is one of high quality, this bitrate will faithfully reproduce the quality of the source -- even though it is encoded realtime. But for these cheap asian units you may get the double whammy -- the tuner is proabably crap so the PQ isn't that hot to start with and if the encoder chip is sub-par that just compounds the problem.

[bobbyslav]

About that guide in the Samsung - assuming it does have it, I wonder if you can set recordings through it? I'd imagine that would be expecting waaay too much.

Actually, if I remember the manual correctly, yes, you can.

[MorrisonHiker]

A new model that was discussed further up in the thread. I am thinking DVD-AR650. Somebody had posted a link to the manual and it says it has a program guide. Another person said he'd seen it already at Walmart. I might go by there again tomorrow to check it out.

If you check the manual on the DVD-AR650, it says the program guide only works for OTA stations, not ones received via cable.

[rgazzara]

The EPG on the Samsung AR650 can only be used for OTA digital channels. It will not work with digital cable.

[bobbyslav]

The EPG on the Samsung AR650 can only be used for OTA digital channels. It will not work with digital cable.

Oh crap!

[Kelson]

I got tired of waiting for a DVD-R that passes HD material when not recording. I finally ordered a Samsung 260 unit. A lot of good things have been written about it. If I end up getting a DVD-R unit, I'll need the extra tuner to watch one show while recording another on my FP anyways, so this just buys me more time. I'll probably just wait for a HDD/DVD-R that passes HD signals, records HD to the HDD and only downconverts when recording to DVD. That'll probably take another year or so to come out, but by then maybe there'll be good recordable HD-DVD or Blu-Ray players.I presume you mean the H260F digital tuner. Please post your experience with this tuner. I read a user review which claimed that the OSD was only visible when the tuner was hooked up via component or HDMI and not when hooked up via S-video or composite. I can't believe that would be the case as it would render this otherwise fine tuner useless for many TVs as well as DVDRs. I'll be interested in your first-hand experience.

[rgazzara]

Kelson, the reviewer was correct. The OSD is only visible through component or HDMI connections. Here's the section from the manual:

NOTE
The On-Screen Menu is displayed only when the COMPONENT jacks or HDMI jack on the rear of your Set-Top Box are properly connected.

[DrBri99]

I presume you mean the H260F digital tuner. Please post your experience with this tuner. I read a user review which claimed that the OSD was only visible when the tuner was hooked up via component or HDMI and not when hooked up via S-video or composite. I can't believe that would be the case as it would render this otherwise fine tuner useless for many TVs as well as DVDRs. I'll be interested in your first-hand experience.

Yes, that is exactly the case. You can't even view the menu to run the initial channel scan, unless you use a work-around.

some of my other observations of the DTBH260F are here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9680208&&#post9680208

It is a great tuner, especially if you have HDMI or component.

[Kelson]

RG & DrBri99 -- thanks to both of you for the response.

DrBri -- great post you linked to. Since I'm an OTA-only user I've started to pay more attention to digital tuners so I'll be regularly visiting that section of the AVS forum you linked to. Since there appear to be very few tuners available presently, it's a good time to start in that section while there is little to catch up on.

[gumby1]

Well, finally got my 3505. Walmart did not have the 3575, but since they are supposedly the same except for the HD, I figured that I would check it out. Initial impressions are favorable. I do like that you can seperate the digital from the analog stations, but I dont like the fact that you cant delete all of the digital channels that you want to. It does, however, pick up my local HD channels while hooked up to basic cable, just like my HP TV. I can not find a way, for instance, to delete 79.3 but keep 79.1. The only way I can do it is by wiping out channel 79 which effectively wipes out all of the subchannels as well. I do not have an HDMI cable yet, so I will have to check out the upconverting later. I am using components and DVD looked fine for now.

Brian

[bobbyslav]

So, not to change the subject or anything, but I have a new problem.

So the Philips 3505 is doing a lot for me so far. I am still planning on trying the Samsung too, but for now the Philips is a God send. Here's the problem. Through my un subscribed for cable connection, which is officially only supposed to carry the internet signal, the Philips manages to tune in all local HD channels, plus a handful of other ones, like Discovery HD, TNT, MTV, and a few others. It's not great, but it's better than nothing. Problem is that I am not getting FOX, and I can't do without my judge shows, not to mention Prison Break when it comes back in the fall.

Initially the Philips wouldn't tune in FOX HD anyway, but today I came up with another ingenious idea to connect with plain old-fashioned speaker wire the large barb wire fence of my neighbors, through a signal amplifier, and into the Philips, and BINGO! I got FOX HD.

But now I lose my cable channels. The TV doesn't have an HD tuner so what I am trying to figure out is how to have the Philips tune both antenna and cable without having to rescan every time, given that it takes like 30 minutes to scan the digital cable.

There is no way to select the type of antenna with the Philips' menu without rescanning automatically. It's pretty dumb.

[Chuck44]

You need to spring for a good antenna. :D

[bobbyslav]

You need to spring for a good antenna. :D

Well it's not about the antenna now, since I am getting all the channels I possibly could OTA. The thing is I want to get the cable ones too without having to rescan every time I change the connection.

I'd probably have to spring out for a second HD tuner,

[gumby1]

I noticed that when I set mine up, it asked to scan the channels. It gave me the option of analog, digital, or both. Since I am paying for basic cable I told it both. It picked up all my basic analog as well as the "bonus" digital channels. I still dont get discovery HD however.
Could you possibly run both inputs into a splitter or combiner and then into your Philips?

Brian

[bobbyslav]

I noticed that when I set mine up, it asked to scan the channels. It gave me the option of analog, digital, or both. Since I am paying for basic cable I told it both. It picked up all my basic analog as well as the "bonus" digital channels. I still dont get discovery HD however.
Could you possibly run both inputs into a splitter or combiner and then into your Philips?

Brian

I could, but the problem with the Philips is that you can't simply change the antenna type, without scanning, there is no such menu, so every time you want to change cable, or OTA you'll have to wait for a complete scan. Or at least I can't find a way around it.

[sivartk]

I think the problem is that it only has one tuner (either in cable mode or OTA mode, not both). Pretty common and I doubt you'll find anything different without going to a dual tuner DVR. Rescanning will be necessary or just use OTA only. I guess you could call the cable company and ask why they don't carry FOX HD in the clear....but since you don't pay for the subscription to cable service, that may not be too wise :)

As far as not being able to delete a sub-channel without deleting the whole channel, that stinks....wouldn't buy one for that reason alone. I have an LST-3510A (by LG) which is a HDTV tuner / DVD Player which behaves the same way...the reason it is allocated to the bedroom where little TV viewing happens.

[roger1818]

The problem with using a signal combiner is that cable and OTA use the same frequencies so the two will conflict with each other. If you scan for both, can you add channels manually and if so, how do you tell it that it is a cable or OTA channel since they use different channel numbers for the same frequencies?

[bobbyslav]

I think the problem is that it only has one tuner (either in cable mode or OTA mode, not both). Pretty common and I doubt you'll find anything different without going to a dual tuner DVR. Rescanning will be necessary or just use OTA only.


Not entirely true, because every other recorder, and TV I've used, has a menu selection for the type of signal input before you start scanning, and then you scan from an entirely different sub menu.

[bobbyslav]

The problem with using a signal combiner is that cable and OTA use the same frequencies so the two will conflict with each other. If you scan for both, can you add channels manually and if so, how do you tell it that it is a cable or OTA channel since they use different channel numbers for the same frequencies?

That's exactly what the Philips is lacking - an option to change from cable/ota input.

[sivartk]

That's exactly what the Philips is lacking - an option to change from cable/ota input.

Maybe I misunderstood, so it self detects the signal type? I thought that the OP wanted to be able to tune both OTA and digital cable channels without rescanning...I haven't seen that done in a single tuner before.

[MorrisonHiker]

Initially the Philips wouldn't tune in FOX HD anyway, but today I came up with another ingenious idea to connect with plain old-fashioned speaker wire the large barb wire fence of my neighbors, through a signal amplifier, and into the Philips, and BINGO! I got FOX HD.



Are you looking everywhere for FOX? When I first ran the QAM tuner on my LCD TV, I found FOX in three locations. One was analog, one was digital and one was HD. Since then, the cable company has added another 'mapping' for the FOX HD channel and I can get to it by typing that channel as well.

Do you have a channel map that you are using to find FOX HD or are you just going through the channels one by one and looking for FOX?

[bobbyslav]

Maybe I misunderstood, so it self detects the signal type? I thought that the OP wanted to be able to tune both OTA and digital cable channels without rescanning...I haven't seen that done in a single tuner before.


It doesn't exactly self detect the signal type, what it does is combine the type selection and scan start in one function. In other words the moment you select the signal type it starts scanning, and than you have to wait. The analog scan is fairly quick, but the digital is looong.

[bobbyslav]

Are you looking everywhere for FOX? When I first ran the QAM tuner on my LCD TV, I found FOX in three locations. One was analog, one was digital and one was HD. Since then, the cable company has added another 'mapping' for the FOX HD channel and I can get to it by typing that channel as well.

Do you have a channel map that you are using to find FOX HD or are you just going through the channels one by one and looking for FOX?

You have very little control over the digital tuner of the Philips. I let it scan all available channels, and then scroll through them one by one, but haven't tried to directly input the channel if it was not found automat