fyi: The panny ez37 is now in stock at Walmart.com:
http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=5715957

Has anyone checked to see if any of these OTA tuners tune above ch. 52?

I think S- yes but same input. Either S or AV. Only has one rear, second front, with usb and firewire. If this one dumps, going for Phillips w/o tuner, better to use 260 or get another 260.


Don't quite get what you are saying above. I saw no s-video input front or back(S-video OUTPUT yes, but no S-video INPUT) on the 797 at Best Buy . Am I wrong?

The DVDr shelves at the local Walmart are starting to look like they should have about 2 months ago - about 1/2 the units have digital tuners. They even stuck a bunch of the new 37 Pannys at the end of the aisle. The analog tuner units are starting to be discounted - mostly by $10.

No such change in the sub 25" TV aisle - same old analog tuner units there.

The DVDr shelves at the local Walmart are starting to look like they should have about 2 months ago - about 1/2 the units have digital tuners. They even stuck a bunch of the new 37 Pannys at the end of the aisle. The analog tuner units are starting to be discounted - mostly by $10.
No such change in the sub 25" TV aisle - same old analog tuner units there.

Just stopped in Walmart this morning. They have a spot on the shelf for the Samsung, they have the Philips (non-HDD model) and the magnavox on the shelf. Has anyone seen anything on the HDD Philips model yet?

I share much of the frustration we've all been experiencing with these units and it's led me to start thinking about building my own HDTV DVR/DVDR from scratch. Kind of like a HTPC but without the high power processor or OS. I've started a thread here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=832832

Has anyone checked to see if any of these OTA tuners tune above ch. 52?

Yes they do. The requirement to not have channels above 51 doesn't kick in until Feb 2009. Right now, one of my local stations digital broadcast is on channel 56 (I'm assuming they'll move it back in Feb 2009 to their current channel).

The DVDr shelves at the local Walmart are starting to look like they should have about 2 months ago - about 1/2 the units have digital tuners. They even stuck a bunch of the new 37 Pannys at the end of the aisle. The analog tuner units are starting to be discounted - mostly by $10.

No such change in the sub 25" TV aisle - same old analog tuner units there.

Almost exactly the same in the Walmarts in Maryland. Other than that it seems like the combo units (TV's with built in VCR's or DVD players) seem to be more likely to have ATSC tuners though.

$185 at Wal-Mart, last night (4 APR 07) here in STL.

Bought for VCR to DVD dubbing, works well at that. The NTSC tuner works OK. The ATSC tuner is SDTV only. Sensitivity seems OK for local work, so far.

The lack of recording modes for OTA above 480 does not overly disturb me, so this is a pretty decent low cost solution to combine an SDTV tuner, VCR, DVD recorder/dubber into one unit. This Magnavox replaced an Samsung ATSC tuner (SIR-T451) and VCR/DVD combo. Using the same antenna, the Magnavox locked KETC (PBS) and KNLC (religious), where the Samsung was unable to maintain lock. Propogation was pretty flat that night as well. All other locals were recieved on ATSC. Note: my zip is 63119, and most of the majors are within five miles.

An interesting feature is that ATSC channels can be manually entered, with sub-channels, and retained. Auto scanning is of course supported.

The only bitch for me is that the remote is a small affair, with smaller keys and labeling. Getting older is a bitch. Menuing is OK. Manual is OK. (with one errata page added in)

There is no RF output on Ch 3/4 (the unit does pass through RF, single F in for both tuners, single F out); all outputs must be on composite, S-Video, or component. An s-Video in is provided, as is a composite in (RCA). Progressive playback mode for DVD's is supported with a menu switch (default is "off"), and outputs through component.

Hope that helps.

Note: this was moved from an individual thread elsewhere.

Don't quite get what you are saying above. I saw no s-video input front or back(S-video OUTPUT yes, but no S-video INPUT) on the 797 at Best Buy . Am I wrong?

No. S vid, av, and componet out. av, fire, and usb 1.1 input. Initially impressed with tuner. More after I've played with it some. No pass through on antenna. It's just for channel 3,4. That's a negative for me.

Re. Magnavox ZV450MWB
I picked one up about a week ago in Cleveland. Pretty happy with it so far. The manual states it doesn't record 16:9, but that's not entirely accurate. If you have it set for a 16:9 display, it records the entire widescreen frame, but not the anamorphic flag. If played back on a 16:9 set, it works fine. If recorded 16:9 and played back on a 4:3 set, it compresses the entire 16:9 frame to 4:3. Not a problem for me. ATSC tuner locks in all my locals except one fine, but that one is on digital 2. Haven't found anything yet that will pick it up in my apartment. No big loss. I get that channel via NTSC (though snowy). They may not be at full power yet. We'll see what happens over the next year. For now, there's really nothing that excites me on NBC that I can't stream directly from their web site anyway.

I've seen some comments in other threads that some think the build quality is substandard. Don't notice that at all on mine. Volume pass through (analog & recorded) seems low, but that's why the gods created good surround sound systems. No, it doesn't record 5.1, but again, that's not a showstopper. My surround system, though good, is very old and only does ProLogic anyway. I agree the buttons are small on the remote. Not the best layout either, but in this price range, I'm not going to complain.

It's replacing a recently deceased ReplayTV DVR. hard to get used to doing things this way again after the convenience of a "real" DVR, but since dropping my cable subscription, there's not really that much I watch anymore anyway. Besides, the ability to time shift the complete 16:9 program offsets any sense of inconveniece I feel.

the main problems I found with the Magnavox (packed back up and waiting for the next trip to the store).

1) Slow channels changes and inability to skip a channel without tuning it
2) Inability to delete a sub-channel without deleting all of the channels (I.e. can't delete 33.2 without deleting all the other 33.x channels)

I do all my editing on my PC (faster to remove commercials), so I could always add the anamorphic flag back in during my editing process. It was nice that it recorded the image exactly how you saw it on the screen. No wondering, just a nice image.

Sony RDR-GXD455 now posted on JR, no picture yet, but says ATSC/QAM tuners. One more distant hope.

What do you guys make of this? http://cgi.*********/NEW-LG-Digital-HDTV-Tuner-HDMI-Region-Free-DVD-Recorder_W0QQitemZ230115182098QQcmdZViewItem
cgi . ebay . com
NEW-LG-Digital-HDTV-Tuner-HDMI-Region-Free-DVD-Recorder_W0QQitemZ230115182098QQcmdZViewItem

What do you guys make of this? http://cgi.*********/NEW-LG-Digital-HDTV-Tuner-HDMI-Region-Free-DVD-Recorder_W0QQitemZ230115182098QQcmdZViewItem
cgi . ebay . com
NEW-LG-Digital-HDTV-Tuner-HDMI-Region-Free-DVD-Recorder_W0QQitemZ230115182098QQcmdZViewItem


Looks to me like someone found a region hack for the LG DR787T and doesn't want to share it with us, but instead is trying to make a few quick bucks before it comes out on videohelp.

Sounds like they are being deceitful by saying it is an HDTV tuner.

Sony RDR-GXD455 now posted on JR, no picture yet, but says ATSC/QAM tuners. One more distant hope.

Also the RDR-VXD655, seems similar to the GXD455 with the addition of a VHS recorder.

Re. Magnavox ZV450MWB
I picked one up about a week ago in Cleveland. Pretty happy with it so far. The manual states it doesn't record 16:9, but that's not entirely accurate. If you have it set for a 16:9 display, it records the entire widescreen frame, but not the anamorphic flag. If played back on a 16:9 set, it works fine. If recorded 16:9 and played back on a 4:3 set, it compresses the entire 16:9 frame to 4:3. Not a problem for me. ATSC tuner locks in all my locals except one fine, but that one is on digital 2. Haven't found anything yet that will pick it up in my apartment. No big loss. I get that channel via NTSC (though snowy). They may not be at full power yet. We'll see what happens over the next year. For now, there's really nothing that excites me on NBC that I can't stream directly from their web site anyway.

I've seen some comments in other threads that some think the build quality is substandard. Don't notice that at all on mine. Volume pass through (analog & recorded) seems low, but that's why the gods created good surround sound systems. No, it doesn't record 5.1, but again, that's not a showstopper. My surround system, though good, is very old and only does ProLogic anyway. I agree the buttons are small on the remote. Not the best layout either, but in this price range, I'm not going to complain.

It's replacing a recently deceased ReplayTV DVR. hard to get used to doing things this way again after the convenience of a "real" DVR, but since dropping my cable subscription, there's not really that much I watch anymore anyway. Besides, the ability to time shift the complete 16:9 program offsets any sense of inconveniece I feel.


Thanks for the comparison. 4:3 is OK for me, as most of the content I want to record is SD. Plus, I'm cheap.... :)

Sounds like they are being deceitful by saying it is an HDTV tuner.

Or just ignorant. Some people don't know the difference between DTV and HDTV.

I do all my editing on my PC (faster to remove commercials), so I could always add the anamorphic flag back in during my editing process.

If you do all your editing on your PC, why not use an ATSC tuner card to record directly on the PC and then burn it onto a DVD?

Looks like the local Walmart got the FCC memo requiring digital tuners - they've cleared the DVDr section of all analog-only tuner units. It's a bit bare but they have about 5-6 models on the shelf. Apparently it doesn't apply to their TV section. :(

Looks like the local Walmart got the FCC memo requiring digital tuners - they've cleared the DVDr section of all analog-only tuner units. It's a bit bare but they have about 5-6 models on the shelf. Apparently it doesn't apply to their TV section. :(
I think it applies to manufacturers, not retailers. I think retailers can continue to sell analog tuner units until they run out.

I think it applies to manufacturers, not retailers. I think retailers can continue to sell analog tuner units until they run out.
It applies to Walmart if all those analog units are coming on a truck from an out of state warehouse. It's a moot point now - I wonder how they get rid of all those analog units? :confused:

Yeh, this is pretty interesting! May mean Wallymat had some kinda internal cutoff date, and are shipping everything to a liquidator. They don't normally want to keep out of date stuff around too long; shelf space will be reserved for the new stuff.

Or maybe they'll sell them in other countries (LOL)!

I think it really have to do with what area the Walmart is at. I have been to two different Walmarts in the city of Mesa in the past week. One in what would be considered a lower income neighborhood. There they don't have any ATSC DVDRs on display, and only the Philips on the shelf. Lots of older DVDRs on display, and hardly any discounting. They also have no shelf markers/price stickers for upcoming models like the Samsung. The second in a nicer part of town the had a Philips and Panasonic ATSC DVDR on display, and markers/price stickers for more coming.

The old Emerson/Sylvania HDD DVDr is list $298 at both, but at the lower income Walmart it was $229, at the other $200.

FYI Both of the Walmarts have opened in the last 3 months

. The second in a nicer part of town the had a Philips and Panasonic ATSC DVDR on display, and markers/price stickers for more coming.


Philips, Panny, and Magnavox w/ digital tuners at my local super Wallymart -- but that was a last week. No sign of Samsung. About 50-50 new and old tuners.

I take this to mean the pipeline is getting filled -- (as old stock emptied) -- but will vary in timing by location. The fact that one store is completely emptied of old models make me want to go back and look.

Cost Co here had only NTSC or no tuner models last time I checked -- you'd think they'd move stock fast.

If you do all your editing on your PC, why not use an ATSC tuner card to record directly on the PC and then burn it onto a DVD?

I tried this about 3 years ago with a cable tuner card, but couldn't get the same quality of video (2 hours per disc) that I could with the stand alone recorder. Now that I'm OTA only, that would require an antenna connection in the study or a new HTPC in the living room.....I may try it again one day, but not right now.

But if I'm going the PC route, I might as well capture HDTV and burn to HD DVD / Blu-Ray :D

I tried this about 3 years ago with a cable tuner card, but couldn't get the same quality of video (2 hours per disc) that I could with the stand alone recorder. Now that I'm OTA only, that would require an antenna connection in the study or a new HTPC in the living room.....I may try it again one day, but not right now.

In an analog world you are dependent on the quality of the MPEG encoder. Older MPEG encoders for the PC weren't very good, especially if they were trying to do it in real time in software. Faster PCs and hardware encoders have improve the situation.

In a digital world you don't need to worry about an MPEG encoder as you can just store the MPEG stream that is being broadcast, though to store it on a traditional DVD you will need to down-convert HD broadcasts to SD, but this can be done as a post process that you do after you have removed the commercials. Obviously this down-conversion isn't needed if you burn to an HD DVD or Blu-ray disk.

But if I'm going the PC route, I might as well capture HDTV and burn to HD DVD / Blu-Ray :D

Certainly, if you have an HD DVD / Blu-Ray burner. If not, you could archive the HD version on your hard drive (assuming you have enough disk space) for the day when you do get one.

don't have a HD Burner (any flavor) right now, but I do have 1.25TB of space ...don't get me thinking about doing this, please :D

don't have a HD Burner (any flavor) right now, but I do have 1.25TB of space ...don't get me thinking about doing this, please :D

I'm trying to avoid it also, but the more I find out about the DVD recorder offerings...

Well, two more -- Philips HD model or Panasonic DMR-EZ27K. Hope one works good or a PC tuner card and a quieter fan gets ordered....

Picked up the LG RC797T and reception quality of tuner is much better than the Samsung. Recovers nicely and will hold the signal way past total pixilation. Can add unscanned channels and has signal level in menu. Pic quality with componet out (480) is 80/75% of an HD feed. IMO. Haven't connected hdmi yet. Seems to hold screen ratios true, 16/9,4/3. Plays/accepts all disks, ram and does pip record, slipstream. Display button will show current program. Slightly annoying is no EPG. Timer function has no daily, weekly, etc. VCR function is the last thing I will test. Next post will be hdmi quality. With my STB H260F, Samsung impressed me, but the DMR-EZ17K is no match with this LG in the tuner dept.

Picked up the LG RC797T and reception quality of tuner is much better than the Samsung. Recovers nicely and will hold the signal way past total pixilation. Can add unscanned channels and has signal level in menu. Pic quality with componet out (480) is 80/75% of an HD feed. IMO. Haven't connected hdmi yet. Seems to hold screen ratios true, 16/9,4/3. Plays/accepts all disks, ram and does pip record, slipstream. Display button will show current program. Slightly annoying is no EPG. Timer function has no daily, weekly, etc. VCR function is the last thing I will test. Next post will be hdmi quality. With my STB H260F, Samsung impressed me, but the DMR-EZ17K is no match with this LG in the tuner dept.

Dave, I believe the LG might have a daily weekly etc recording modes. When you go to schedule the recording, under the date scroll down and it will give you all those options.

Timer function has no daily, weekly, etc.
The Pio 640 has daily/weekly setting procedure in a way that, at first, people thought it didn't have those settings either.

Maybe your LG is similar (except maybe the nav./selection method)...instead of arrowing/moving up to next day, arrow/move down to get into the daily/weekly settings...(cross fingers...a bummer if not!).

Dave, I believe the LG might have a daily weekly etc recording modes. When you go to schedule the recording, under the date scroll down and it will give you all those options.
I'll look again and it would be "better".

Yup, under date you can do "every Sat" or Mon-Fri. Very sneaky of LG.

Picked up the LG RC797T and reception quality of tuner is much better than the Samsung. Recovers nicely and will hold the signal way past total pixilation. Can add unscanned channels and has signal level in menu. Pic quality with componet out (480) is 80/75% of an HD feed. IMO. Haven't connected hdmi yet. Seems to hold screen ratios true, 16/9,4/3. Plays/accepts all disks, ram and does pip record, slipstream. Display button will show current program. Slightly annoying is no EPG. Timer function has no daily, weekly, etc. VCR function is the last thing I will test. Next post will be hdmi quality. With my STB H260F, Samsung impressed me, but the DMR-EZ17K is no match with this LG in the tuner dept.

Thanks for the review...think I will try this one out for my grandparents to use as a OTA DTV STB (enough acronyms for you?) :p

Thanks for the review...think I will try this one out for my grandparents to use as a OTA DTV STB (enough acronyms for you?) :psivartk, from reading your posts, it would seem to me that you would want to wait for this upcoming phillips unit with 160GB HDD for your grandparents. I say this because you have indicated many times that the intended use is as a replacement tuner for their analog TV tuner. So, since they will always be watching live TV through the DVDR's tuner, don't you think they would like the 6hr Tivo-like record buffer of the phillips. It would give them the ability to pause or rewind live TV.

just a thought for you.

it would seem to me that you would want to wait for this upcoming phillips unit with 160GB HDD for your grandparents.

The thought crossed my mind, but 2 things stuck out, okay 3.

1) The tuner is probably the same as the Magnavox (slow, can't delete sub-channels individually)

2) One more thing I would have to train them on :) The user interface is probably more complicated, deleting programs would probably never happen. They also have a habit of not even using the timer recording, but rather hitting "record" on their VCR as they walk out the door. (I know they could figure it out, after all they send emails and surf the net all the time)

3) I would have to leave their 12 year old hand me down VCR in the mix (which doesn't have the best picture quality with a good tape). (Yes, I know I shouldn't hand down crap to my grandparents :D)

I think that the hard drive would be a little too much for them. They also don't have any desire to time slip (easier with the hard drive than a DVD-RAM)

Seems like the Toshiba's are disappearing from the pre-order lists. Perhaps they have too many bugs and are awaiting firmware updates. Just guessing.

Seems like the Toshiba's are disappearing from the pre-order lists. Perhaps they have too many bugs and are awaiting firmware updates. Just guessing.


Really? From what lists? I just saw them show up on circuitcity as "coming soon".

I tried to read through this thread but wound up confused. I have a new pioneer 4270 hooked up to a new DirectTV receiver and a cable from my local cable company to receive the local channels. The cable delivers analog signals only. My wife wants a recorder to record her soaps off cable. She not interested in recording Direct Tv signals. What would one recommend for a good recorder for these analog signals that is easy to program and dependable? How is the best way to hook it up? I tried BEST BUYS and no one there seems to have a good answer.
Any help would be sincerely appreciated. :p

I tried to read through this thread but wound up confused. I have a new pioneer 4270 hooked up to a new DirectTV receiver and a cable from my local cable company to receive the local channels. The cable delivers analog signals only. My wife wants a recorder to record her soaps off cable. She not interested in recording Direct Tv signals. What would one recommend for a good recorder for these analog signals that is easy to program and dependable? How is the best way to hook it up? I tried BEST BUYS and no one there seems to have a good answer.
Any help would be sincerely appreciated. :p


Let's try this one by one. So you're paying extra for cable just to get local channels? Am I getting this right? If you insist on this pointless money wasting, any DVD recorder with a tuner will do. You might want to consider a hard drive model for the convenience of not needing discs all the time.

If you or your wife would like to get a better picture and save a few bucks a month, tell the cable company where they can put their bill they send you, and get a newer recorder with an ATSC tuner, stick some cheap antenna in it and see if that's enough. For ease of recording probably the Samsung DVD-AR650 is easiest, because it has a built in program guide.

I tried BEST BUYS and no one there seems to have a good answer.
Any help would be sincerely appreciated. :p

Listen to Bobbyslav, he speaks with truth...as for no one at Worst Buy having a good answer, I'm surprised they had an answer at all :rolleyes:

Really? From what lists? I just saw them show up on circuitcity as "coming soon".The 550 disappeared from Amazon list.
http://www.amazon.com/s******nb_ss_gw/102-3219723-1869761?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=ATSC+DVD+recorder&Go.x=0&Go.y=0&Go=Go
The 650 did too but is back there this morning.

The cable delivers analog signals only.

Are you sure? In most markets you get a bunch of clear QAM chs also, including chs that will likely have the soaps on them. Get any of the current crop of digital tuner models (like the 3505 Phillips at Walmart) and they'll all work, both on the current analog chs (which you'll eventually lose) and the clear QAM digitals.

In my area the local cable company has 93 unencrypted digital (QAM) channels in their basic tier ($13.25 a month, includes 25 analog channels). A good many of them are music channels (Music Choice and other audio services) but all the local broadcast channels (including 8 in HD) and a few others are there. The biggest problem with my cable company is that they move the unencrypted channels around a LOT. When I complained to them about that they told me that I should rent one of their STBs. When they move them the box re-maps them to their "cable standard" number.

For ease of recording probably the Samsung DVD-AR650 is easiest, because it has a built in program guide.Yes, but what inquiring minds REALLY want to know is:

Can you schedule recordings directly through the guide (a la TVGOS or TiVo, et al), or do you still have to set the timers manually?

Yes, but what inquiring minds REALLY want to know is:

Can you schedule recordings directly through the guide (a la TVGOS or TiVo, et al), or do you still have to set the timers manually?

According to the manual, you should be able to, and there is an option in the guide for a direct recording scheduling through one of the color buttons on the remote.

That said, I never tried, and I feel like someone on the thread of that recorder said it didn't work for him. Read through that thread if you like and see, I can't remember exactly.

But technically, yes, there is a function in the program guide that allows you to select a program to be timer recorded.

Thanks.

By the way, I just noticed that the new Panny's are now listed on Circuit City's website.

(Someone in another thread mentioned that the Panny DVD/VHS recorders wouldn't have any tuners at all - apparently they're wrong.)

Thanks.

By the way, I just noticed that the new Panny's are now listed on Circuit City's website.

(Someone in another thread mentioned that the Panny DVD/VHS recorders wouldn't have any tuners at all - apparently they're wrong.)
I thought they'd have both (some with and some without). :confused:

Thanks.

By the way, I just noticed that the new Panny's are now listed on Circuit City's website.

(Someone in another thread mentioned that the Panny DVD/VHS recorders wouldn't have any tuners at all - apparently they're wrong.)


They have been listed for a while now, but still for shipping only. I wish they'd be available at the store so I can go play with them first.

I can't believe that there are still hardly any reports on them.

They have been listed for a while now, but still for shipping only. I wish they'd be available at the store so I can go play with them first.

I can't believe that there are still hardly any reports on them.

I was in a CC yesterday and not a single DVDR with a digital tuner. This store was brand new and just opened at the beginning of March. No clearance on current recorders either :(

I was in a CC yesterday and not a single DVDR with a digital tuner.

They do seem a little slow getting to the stores.

Hopefully, the verdors will "get it right" on the the new recorders and it won't take several software updates before they work like they should.

Went to Walmart, Target, CC, and Costco. Walmart had Philips and Magnavox.
Target none, Costco none. CC had the LG 797 in stock. I wanted to buy the Samsung HDTV receiver at CC but they told me they had a 15% restocking fee on returned products. Yikes!!! I won't go back to that store.

I purchased and returned a Samsung DHTB260F at CC a few months ago here in VA, they returned it without a problem (or fee).

I purchased and returned a Samsung DHTB260F at CC a few months ago here in VA, they returned it without a problem (or fee).Thanks for the info. Why did you return it?

Maybe it still works like the 451 I had and took back. Great picture, lousy remote response time, lousy customer support. You had to aim the remote right at it, it didn't respond half the time, and when it did the channel change and other functions just was slow.
I think it had other problems too but the remote was what I mostly remember.
I got a LG 4200a before they all went away for a good deal and am much happier camper now.

I have a question....

Does anyone know why none of the ATSC recorders would display program info from cable signals? Does it depend on the cable company, or what?

Thanks for the info. Why did you return it?
I only have TV with composite and S-Video inputs, so there were no menus. Everything else was just fine, great picture, great reception for OTA.

One thing I loved, which I'm missing on the DVD-AR650 is the length of time programs are listed on the EPG, with the DTBH260 on one channel the programs were listed a week ahead, with the DVD-AR650, it is less than 12 hours.

I only had it a short time when I found out DVD-Recorders would have ATSC tuners, so I decided to wait.

I have a question....

Does anyone know why none of the ATSC recorders would display program info from cable signals? Does it depend on the cable company, or what?
My guess is the program information displayed with OTA is PSIP program guide data sent by the stations with the digital stream and received and decoded by the digital tuner.

Apparently the cable companies do not pass that PSIP program guide data through their transport path to us. In fact, until a few weeks ago, around here Comcast did not even pass through (or regenerate) the PSIP channel mapping data that tells the receiver what logical channel (equivalent to the analog channel + ".1" or ".n") to use.

I suppose the cable companies have not interpreted the federal mandate for unencrypted OTA digital channels to include the PSIP data, or perhaps their equipment is not configured to do so.

Dave is correct. I have talked to several people at the cable company (even got to talk to a tech at the "head end") and I was told by several people at the cable company that they don't pass the PSIP data "because we don't have to" and "if you want the channel information you have to use one of our STBs". It appears that a LOT of cable companies are NOT passing PSIP data. Does anyone have one that does?

Does anyone have one that does?
Comcast here in Silicon Valley passes PSIP for some local channels, but not all local channels. On my Toshiba LCD QAM tuner, if PSIP is being passed, the channel assignment changes to what's in the PSIP. For example, the local CBS station tunes on 5-1 instead of the actual cable channel (like 116-1 for the local NBC station).

Ron

In March, Comcast started carrying the PSIP program guide data for the QAM channels in Denver.

It appears that a LOT of cable companies are NOT passing PSIP data. Does anyone have one that does?

I think the norm will be to pass the data for the locals/broadcast networks - all of the chs that are supposed to be in clear QAM. Cox here does that.

Cox in Phoenix does not pass the data

Cox in Phoenix does not pass the data
So what ch is you local NBC station on?

My cable company has moved all the PBS stations to their OTA digital numbers, for example 48.1, but they do not pass any of the PSIP guide information. The same (non-cable company) STB shows all the program information for all the OTA channels when feed a signal from an antenna (the STB is a ATSC/QAM receiver).

So what ch is you local NBC station on?
Current QAM lineup for Cox - Phoenix

76-1 Fox 10
76-2 CW 61
80-1 ABC 15
80-2 CBS 5
81-1 PBS HD
81-2 NBC 12
81-3 PBS 8

LG RC797T

Better than the Samsung DMRAR650 I returned. Tuner better, DVD recorder/player better, has VHS, HDMI out is better, but it just won't synk with my projector. Off/on/on/off. Etc. Even the manual references there may be these problems. "HDMI may not be HDCP compatible" If anything was suppose to be "compatible" it should be an hdmi cable. But I'm not going to buy a $100 monster cable to test this. There is flicker which may be hz issue. Miss EPG and timer function is there but could be more flexible. It just leaves the feeling for $300 this should be better. May bring it back to BB and ask them to plug it into a display model with the HDMI. Because I use this with projector and HTCP/ATSC Tuner. A Toshiba upconvert DVD Player, and HD DVD player without HDMI issues. Finally the HDMI upconvert is no better than the Toshiba, AND less I forget the aspect ratio on HD channels compared with Samsung DTB H260F is VERY close, BUT on SD the side bars are almost an inch wider on each side. Even with an input from the Samsung, it will record the wider bars. The Samsung has more narrow sidebars. My old Liteon recorded as displayed on the Samsung. And as we all know all screen space is valuable.

Current QAM lineup for Cox - Phoenix

76-1 Fox 10
76-2 CW 61
80-1 ABC 15
80-2 CBS 5
81-1 PBS HD
81-2 NBC 12
81-3 PBS 8

That is a bit unusual in that I think in most places the QAM chs are usually higher than that (start around 105 here) - cause the analogs take all the lower chs. The norm would be to have the NBC ch show up at 12.1 (I assume the same as OTA).

LG RC797T

but it just won't synk with my projector. Off/on/on/off. Etc. Even the manual references there may be these problems. "HDMI may not be HDCP compatible" If anything was suppose to be "compatible" it should be an hdmi cable. But I'm not going to buy a $100 monster cable to test this. There is flicker which may be hz issue.
It is not the cable. Due to its low price and perhaps rush to market they may not have implemented HDMI quite right.

That is a bit unusual in that I think in most places the QAM chs are usually higher than that (start around 105 here) - cause the analogs take all the lower chs. The norm would be to have the NBC ch show up at 12.1 (I assume the same as OTA).
Comcast in our area has the HD and SD digital channels in the 70-90 range.

I have no idea what channels would be used in other places.

"HDMI may not be HDCP compatible" If anything was suppose to be "compatible" it should be an hdmi cable. But I'm not going to buy a $100 monster cable to test this.
There is no such thing as a non HDCP compatible cable, only the component can be non HDCP compliant. Also there is no difference between a no-name $10 HDMI cable and a Monster $100+ HDMI cable. HDMI is a digital signal, so the component either gets the signal or it doesn't. There is an electrical engineer on this board that has a great post proving this point.

(Someone in another thread mentioned that the Panny DVD/VHS recorders wouldn't have any tuners at all - apparently they're wrong.)

This is actually backwards. All Panny DVD recorders will have tuners (at least this year). It is Sony that apparently won't include tuners in any models this year.

I expect the Sony ATSC dvd recorder with in a month:
http://www.jr.com/JRProductPage.process?Product=4167256&JRSource=nsa&nsa=1
http://www.engadgethd.com/2007/03/19/sonys-dvd-recorders-get-atsc-treatment/

There is no such thing as a non HDCP compatible cable, only the component can be non HDCP compliant. Also there is no difference between a no-name $10 HDMI cable and a Monster $100+ HDMI cable. HDMI is a digital signal, so the component either gets the signal or it doesn't. There is an electrical engineer on this board that has a great post proving this point.

The quotation marks in my post indicate that's what the manual states.

[QUOTE=Davinleeds]LG RC797T

Off/on/on/off. Etc. Even the manual references there may be these problems. "HDMI may not be HDCP compatible"

I had this problem at first with the LG 787, it said the same thing. By changing the monitor input select however I got it to work. I think the display device needs to send the "ok" signal to the source. P.S., My $30 department store HDMI cable works fine, but watch out for a too big cable-end shell. Clearence on my monitor is too tight.

I'll give it another try before return.

I expect the Sony ATSC dvd recorder with in a month:

I stand corrected. :)

I got a call from panasonic support on my answering machine today. I called them about
my EZ17 that had various problems on March 27th. Today is April 18th. Either their support
is really poor or they are swamped. Of course, the tech mumbled the return number so I
can't call him back. I had returned the EZ17 weeks ago anyway.
I am glad to hear that Sony is coming out with a new recorder with an ATSC tuner.
Model RDR-GXD455.

Also there is no difference between a no-name $10 HDMI cable and a Monster $100+ HDMI cable. HDMI is a digital signal, so the component either gets the signal or it doesn't.

While this is true, generally, I would add a provisio -- "for short lengths" like up to 9 feet. The $10 cable uses maybe 28 gauge. I would go bigger, like 26, 24, even to 22 gauge when moving from 12 feet to say 150 feet. The issue with digital is once the voltage drops below the receiver threshold(which can happen with long runs and thin wire = high resistance), the signal can drop out. With analog, you just get a crummier image. Of course, you can still get a nice thick quality cable for alot less than $100!

fyi: first time RCA recorder in stock at walmart.com
http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=5693289

It simply does not give me a warm and fuzzy feeling about the state of DVD recorders when we are looking to walmart and target for the release of new equipment.

This is truely, truely sad.

It simply does not give me a warm and fuzzy feeling about the state of DVD recorders when we are looking to walmart and target for the release of new equipment.

This is truely, truely sad.
LOL! :eek:

fyi: first time RCA recorder in stock at walmart.com
http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=5693289
It seems that in recent times the web site is way behind the reality of what is already available in the stores.

It seems that in recent times the web site is way behind the reality of what is already available in the stores.

At least they do update their web site. Best Buy adds products to their site in bulk months before they are available. I dread the "coming soon" message.

I just had another random thought...

Has anyone tried hooking up satellite signal directly into a new digital ready recorder, without using the satellite box? I wonder if it will tune anything. I am wondering because this new TV I got says to plug in antenna, cable, or satellite line into the RF port. Is satellite signal different from digital cable?

I just had another random thought...

Has anyone tried hooking up satellite signal directly into a new digital ready recorder, without using the satellite box? I wonder if it will tune anything. I am wondering because this new TV I got says to plug in antenna, cable, or satellite line into the RF port. Is satellite signal different from digital cable?

The RF out on a satellite box is just NTSC, AFAIK. It puts everything on channel 3, and you then tune with your satellite box. Normally, with any decent TV, one would use S-Video, component, or HDMI, depending upon the output capabilites of the satellite box, as the RF out has poor quality relative to the others.

The RF input that goes into the Satellite box requires special circuitry to power the dish LMBs and/or digital switches in the line, and the signals are not NTSC or QAM or ATSC. So that cannot be run into your TV.

The exception to this was RCA used to have a D* TV, which had, I thought, a sat receiver built in with the necessary signals, but I never used one of those and I doubt they are still available. Also, I thought E* had a TV you could buy from them only at one point - if my memory is correct. At any rate, no digital ready recorder has the capability to hook the raw satellite signal to it, so...

The RF out on a satellite box is just NTSC, AFAIK. It puts everything on channel 3, and you then tune with your satellite box. Normally, with any decent TV, one would use S-Video, component, or HDMI, depending upon the output capabilites of the satellite box, as the RF out has poor quality relative to the others.

The RF input that goes into the Satellite box requires special circuitry to power the dish LMBs and/or digital switches in the line, and the signals are not NTSC or QAM or ATSC. So that cannot be run into your TV.

The exception to this was RCA used to have a D* TV, which had, I thought, a sat receiver built in with the necessary signals, but I never used one of those and I doubt they are still available. Also, I thought E* had a TV you could buy from them only at one point - if my memory is correct. At any rate, no digital ready recorder has the capability to hook the raw satellite signal to it, so...


Cool, just thought I'd ask, never had Satellite at home...

It would be cool if someone would put a satellite tuner into a DVD recorder to either eliminate a box, or just give you a second tuner.

I just had another random thought...

Has anyone tried hooking up satellite signal directly into a new digital ready recorder, without using the satellite box? I wonder if it will tune anything. I am wondering because this new TV I got says to plug in antenna, cable, or satellite line into the RF port. Is satellite signal different from digital cable?
SAT signal between dish and receiver is entirely different from NTSC, ATSC or QAM (cable).
And the SAT transponders channels going to the SAT receiver are packed into the
frequency band ABOVE VHF/UHF TV.

It would be cool if someone would put a satellite tuner into a DVD recorder to either eliminate a box, or just give you a second tuner.I did see an ad for at least one TV model with a built-in D* tuner recently in a HT mag. I know they were talking about building them into TV's a few years back (D*'s tuners only), and it looks like they're just now getting around to it, as the model I saw was a brand new release.

fyi: first time RCA recorder in stock at walmart.com
http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=5693289 I was at their Tempe, AZ store and they had plenty in stock. Would be nice if someone posted a review.

More misleading advertising:
Walmart says the Pany has an HD tuner: http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=5693290
This page says the upcoming Sony has an HD tuner: http://www.americantv.com/itemDetail.do?itemCd=041045508&linkBack=L2l0ZW1MaXN0LmRvP2NhdENkPTUwMzk%3D

I did see an ad for at least one TV model with a built-in D* tuner recently in a HT mag. I know they were talking about building them into TV's a few years back (D*'s tuners only), and it looks like they're just now getting around to it, as the model I saw was a brand new release.
LG is building DVRs into their plasma TVs.

Here's a 50" with NTSC/ATSC/QAM tuners and 160GB DVR. (http://www.bestwebbuys.com/electronics/LG_50PY2DR_-_Plasma_panel_with_TV_tuner/DVR_combo-4740883.html?isrc=e-search)

Very pricey, but here's one source that appears to be selling it at about 1/2 price ($2449)? (http://www.pcvideoonline.com/productdetail.asp?catid=48&productid=5447) (If interested, be sure this is the "PY2" version with ATSC/QAM, not the NTSC-only version "PC1," which is within that price range other places.)

Can be internet controlled, record when off, etc. (see this user review). (http://reviews.cnet.com/LG_50PY2DR_50_plasma_TV/4864-6482_7-31392975.html?ctype=msgid&messageSiteID=7&messageID=1895529&cval=1895529&tag=uolst)

LG is building DVRs into their plasma TVs.Yeah, the plasma models out right now are at least in their 2nd generation. They've also got an LCD model or two with it, which I believe are only the 1st generation. They all use TVGOS.

Wow, check this out - hope the link will come up.

http://www.circuitcity.com/ssm/Panasonic-3-1-Channel-Home-Theater-System-SCPT-X7/sem/rpsm/oid/179766/catOid/-13325/rpem/ccd/productDetail.do

Wow, check this out - hope the link will come up.

http://www.circuitcity.com/ssm/Panasonic-3-1-Channel-Home-Theater-System-SCPT-X7/sem/rpsm/oid/179766/catOid/-13325/rpem/ccd/productDetail.do


3.1?? Useless.

in the specs it say 2.1 surround channel? Didn't know you needed a sub for a surround speaker...dang it, I need a new receiver and another sub to set up my system correctly :p

If it doesn't pass / record HD, what's the point....$800 is kind of steep for something that can't do surround sound...even though the specs say it can, but they don't provide the speakers, just strange...something is amiss.

It appears that the hard drive is only for music per Crutchfield


http://http://www.crutchfield.com/S-kPkq4aXcSkV/cgi-bin/ProdView.asp?g=37700&I=133SCPTX7

Oh well, I thought it will bring some hope to all the Panasonic lamenters on here.

It appears that the hard drive is only for music per Crutchfield


http://http://www.crutchfield.com/S-kPkq4aXcSkV/cgi-bin/ProdView.asp?g=37700&I=133SCPTX7

Wow! That is really overpriced. You can get you a nice set of speakers (5.1) and a nice receiver and a DVD player for under $1200....or buy this low end stuff for $800...hmmm...

FYI, The Panasonic EZ27K with HDMI (up to 1080p) is showing available on the WM website today.
I was looking there because of problems I'm having with the Phillips 3505 "forgetting" time, programming, channels, etc which has happened 2 times to me in the last 9 days. (see the 3505 thread if interested). I'll probably take my 3505 back and hope they have a EZ27 in the store.

this thread has been inactive for a while. Time to wake it up.

Just saw a review of the Panasonic EZ47K on Cnet. Here's the link:

http://reviews.cnet.com/Panasonic_DMR_EZ47VK/4505-6463_7-32331259.html

Just saw a review of the Panasonic EZ47K on Cnet.
Another one to add to the list that cannot be used as a HD Tuner. Looks like we have the Samsung (no confirmation either way from what I have read) and Sony or Toshiba models left before we wait until next year.

Looks like the Toshiba D-R550 is finally available at Amazon (actually Beach Audio and GizmosForLife).

Bob

Looks like the Toshiba D-R550 is finally available at Amazon (actually Beach Audio and GizmosForLife).

Confusing description here: Toshiba D-R550 (http://www.tacp.toshiba.com/dvr/product.asp?model=d-r550)
It says up top "DVD Tuner with Built-In Tuner" Below it says "*External tuner source required to record television programming."

It is bad when a top level manufacturer can't even get the facts straight on their web site.

Confusing description here: Toshiba D-R550 (http://www.tacp.toshiba.com/dvr/product.asp?model=d-r550)
It says up top "DVD Tuner with Built-In Tuner" Below it says "*External tuner source required to record television programming."

It is bad when a top level manufacturer can't even get the facts straight on their web site.

I guess I took that to mean that if there was 1 * above that would be the case. Perhaps another model with no tuner would have a star someone in the description.

At least this was my philosophy until I noticed no "***" below. So maybe *** means ** and *.

Either way, you're right; it's kinda confusing. If this were an automobile discussion, I'd criticize the native language of the company. But that probably wouldn't be fair in eithre case, since foreign companies have US facilities and employees . . . but I digress

If they want us to plunk down $200 + they should proofread the web pages and manuals!

Does any one know if the vcr in panasonic ez47k or LG dr797t can record digital channels like 18.2, 9.3,7.1. I have been getting mixed answers to this question.

with the LG 797 if you can tune it, you can record it on VHS. I briefly tested (manual record only) recording to VHS in SP mode, but the quality was so bad, I didn't do any further testing.

If you have set up the recorder for 16:9 TV, it will record a compressed widescreen image in a 4:3 frame, so you can only play it back properly on a widescreen TV using the TV's "wide" or "stretch" mode.

At least this was my philosophy until I noticed no "***" below. So maybe *** means ** and *.

I think they intended to remove the note about "External tuner source required..." and change *** to *.

Are we sure the Toshiba D-R400 has no tuner? I looked at the back, and it has a RF input.

with the LG 797 if you can tune it, you can record it on VHS. I briefly tested (manual record only) recording to VHS in SP mode, but the quality was so bad, I didn't do any further testing.

If you have set up the recorder for 16:9 TV, it will record a compressed widescreen image in a 4:3 frame, so you can only play it back properly on a widescreen TV using the TV's "wide" or "stretch" mode.


I know the quality will be terrible compared to a DVD recording, but how is it compared to a regular VHS recording. I fell like the Panasonic model's VHS would be better, but from what I have been able to find so far it will not record the digital ATSC channels

can't comment compared to an analog recording as I haven't done one of those in about 10 years and I only had it hooked up to an antenna...not the best analog signal. It was worse in SP mode than a bought VHS movie. (IMO)

Here's one more for the list:

http://www.memcorpinc.com/html/product_detail.php?PID=602

A Memorex with an ATSC tuner has been spotted at Target for $129.

I was waiting for the Toshiba D-VR650 to come out, but it sounds like the ATSC tuner in it only displays in standard definition, not HD. I want a VCR/DVD recorder that has an ATSC tuner that displays OTA signals in HD. I don't care that they can't record HD. Are there any combo units out there that display the HD digital signals from OTA? From what I can tell by the few I looked at, the combo units that have a built in ATSC tuner only display in standard definition.

The link below it says:

"receives all HDTV/SDTV broadcast formats — records and displays in standard definition only"

http://www.crutchfield.com/S-Reoy5Ic4odW/cgi-bin/prodview.asp?i=052DVR650

So far, it looks like you'll have to wait for the next generation. Most here would want what you want, but the manufacturers aren't doing it yet.

I was waiting for the Toshiba D-VR650 to come out, but it sounds like the ATSC tuner in it only displays in standard definition, not HD. I want a VCR/DVD recorder that has an ATSC tuner that displays OTA signals in HD. I don't care that they can't record HD. Are there any combo units out there that display the HD digital signals from OTA? From what I can tell by the few I looked at, the combo units that have a built in ATSC tuner only display in standard definition.

The link below it says:

"receives all HDTV/SDTV broadcast formats — records and displays in standard definition only"

http://www.crutchfield.com/S-Reoy5Ic4odW/cgi-bin/prodview.asp?i=052DVR650


Time for a sticky??? Would be cool to have a list of HDTV tuner that pass HD and record SD, then a blank post :)

Time for a sticky??? Would be cool to have a list of HDTV tuner that pass HD and record SD, then a blank post :)

I would love to have a Sticky list like that to scroll through because that's what I want to get, but from what poster kjbawc said, it doesn't sound like any exist yet for us to create a list :(

I would love to have a Sticky list like that to scroll through because that's what I want to get, but from what poster kjbawc said, it doesn't sound like any exist yet for us to create a list :(

I'm just basing that on the info I have read in this thread, and others, on this forum. Everybody would like a DVDR that would send a HD picture from its ATSC ( and QAM) tuner to the display, but none so far do, aparently. When, and if, the situation changes, I'm sure it will be posted, probably with its own thread.

Time for a sticky???

It's already part of a sticky. :) Item 7 of

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=834668

I had been hoping for an ATSC equipped DVDR that would pass
as an OTA receiver as our older Sammy DLP does not have an integrated tuner.

Just like everyone else here I want to;
1. Save space
2. Reduce # of remotes
3. Too many cables and not enough inputs
4. Keep cable spits to a min
5. Include QAM if possible
6. Keep the current TV a little longer instead of
replacing with a newer atsc/qam model.

Currently using a MOXI DVR with very limited HD capacity and an older LiteOn DVDR.
Have been promised a software UPDATE to add external HDD to the MOXI
but it has not passed CHR**TERS testing.
MOXI is supposed to market a consumer BOX w/ cable card this fall but I am
not sure IF this unit would have a DVDR and/or an integrated ATSC tuner.

IMO, I think that the limited ability of ATSC tuners in the new DVDR units means
they(the Manufacturers) are in a transition period between THE mandated ATSC early in 2007
and the the Cable Cable Card enabled DVR(after July? 2007) AND
they do NOT want to compete with other CURRENT product lines and
warehouse inventory.

Thanks to all here as I would not have guessed that the 'new' and improved
DVDR units do NOT pass the signal without reading here first.

BC

If you get right down to it, there's really no reason for a standard definition
recorder to pass through HD signals. You'll probably need a High Def recorder
for that. :)

If you get right down to it, there's really no reason for a standard definition
recorder to pass through HD signals. You'll probably need a High Def recorder
for that. :)

I disagree. I think the manufacturers are missing a bet. Lots of people are going to need ATSC tuners with OTA analog shut-down, and buying a DVDR with a ATSC tuner that passes through a HD signal would be a good way to go. Add in the QAM tuner, and the product also appeals to those whose cable systems are dropping analog, in whole, or part. If and when the manufacturers finaly decide to market HD DVD recording systems to us, of course they will pass the HD signals, but that might not happen for several years yet.

kjbawc, Maybe you hit the nail on the head with people are going to need ATSC Tuners but they don't want us using DVD Recorders as tuners because they also want to sell us a tuner :( especially if the Gov. is going to give out rebates for them it would be pretty hard for them to pass that up.

China must be :) & saying thank you very much USA for all that new found money in that mandate. :mad:

kjbawc, Maybe you hit the nail on the head with people are going to need ATSC Tuners but they don't want us using DVD Recorders as tuners because they also want to sell us a tuner :( especially if the Gov. is going to give out rebates for them it would be pretty hard for them to pass that up.

China must be :) & saying thank you very much USA for all that new found money in that mandate. :mad:

Possibly the manufacturers would rather sell us both tuners, and DVDRs, but I think the gov rebates could be used on DVDRs with ATSC HD pass-through tuners, if the consumer wanted. I don't think the gov will be asking for receipts for what you buy. But, from the manufacturers' point of view, I think I would rather sell a DVDR with a HD ATSC tuner, since it is a bigger piece of equipment bringing more profit than just the tuner by itself. I think the analog shut-down would prompt many people to buy such a DVDR, more than would buy a DVDR otherwise. But, probably they see it differently. :(

China must be :) & saying thank you very much USA for all that new found money in that mandate. :mad:

They just gotta love the Republican administration too for pushing NAFTA, lol...

Possibly the manufacturers would rather sell us both tuners, and DVDRs, but I think the gov rebates could be used on DVDRs with ATSC HD pass-through tuners, if the consumer wanted. I don't think the gov will be asking for receipts for what you buy. But, from the manufacturers' point of view, I think I would rather sell a DVDR with a HD ATSC tuner, since it is a bigger piece of equipment bringing more profit than just the tuner by itself. I think the analog shut-down would prompt many people to buy such a DVDR, more than would buy a DVDR otherwise. But, probably they see it differently. :(The gov't tuner rebate cannot be used for a DVDR. A link to the gov't document was posted somewhere in here. There are guidelines as to what the tuner must have and what it may have and what it may not have in order to be an approved model for which one could use the rebate coupon. Some sort of report-back will be in stores to ensure compliance with the rules. In short the tuner can have only composite or S-video output, no component, no HDMI. It can only output 480, no hi-def. It can have a remote. These are designed to be used with the millions of non-digital analog sets. If you were one of those who bought into the HD-Ready transient market, you are somewhat hosed. There are only a couple digital HD tuners on the market and they will get fewer, not greater. They currently cost ~$200, if you need one you better get it now because the price will probably not drop -- there is no continuing market for them because all new HD TV's have built in digital tuners and have had them for over a year.

I agree with chuck44, you will probably never see an SD DVDR passing native HD through the monitor. Why should they, that is not their function. The tuners they are using are probably very similar or the same as the tuners they will put in the gov't approved converter boxes; they receive all 18 digital modes and output only a 480 signal. I suspect an HD tuner is probably a bit more expensive in terms of both the cost of the part and the IP license. This would add cost and raise the price at a time when they are taking out features to minimize cost.

I know a lot of people are wanting a $200 DVD recorder that doubles as an HD tuner for their HD-Ready TV -- sorry, I just don't see that happening any time soon.

TommyO, I'm not sticking up for the Republican's but wasn't it Bush 1 that started NAFTA & Clinton that got it passed? Just goes to show that you can't trust any of them :eek:

The gov't tuner rebate cannot be used for a DVDR. A link to the gov't document was posted somewhere in here. There are guidelines as to what the tuner must have and what it may have and what it may not have in order to be an approved model for which one could use the rebate coupon. Some sort of report-back will be in stores to ensure compliance with the rules. In short the tuner can have only composite or S-video output, no component, no HDMI. It can only output 480, no hi-def. It can have a remote.

Since the gov is doing it, I should have figuredthey would do something stupid like that. I thought all you had to do was prove you qualified, and you would get a voucher. Thanks for setting me straight.



I agree with chuck44, you will probably never see an SD DVDR passing native HD through the monitor. Why should they, that is not their function.

Why should they? I did explain that in my previous post, and your clarifiaction that gov approved tuners won't output HD makes my reasons all the more compelling.

I disagree. I think the manufacturers are missing a bet. Lots of people are going to need ATSC tuners with OTA analog shut-down, and buying a DVDR with a ATSC tuner that passes through a HD signal would be a good way to go. Add in the QAM tuner, and the product also appeals to those whose cable systems are dropping analog, in whole, or part. If and when the manufacturers finaly decide to market HD DVD recording systems to us, of course they will pass the HD signals, but that might not happen for several years yet.
I believe most of us want DVD recorders with hard drives,
but look what they're (not) doing about that, at least here in the US. :(

Since the gov is doing it, I should have figuredthey would do something stupid like that. I thought all you had to do was prove you qualified, and you would get a voucher. Thanks for setting me straight.It is true that most people will qualify and you can get 2 vouchers per household. The purpose of the voucher is to assist people to replace the analog tuner that will become non-functional with a digital equivalent. The government is not interested (nor should they be) in subsidizing peoples upgrade to HD reception.

It remains to be seen how much these converters will cost, the vouchers are only good for $40.

Yes Bill1313... Now that I think of it, I believe you're correct on that... Darn middle ages here; I need Ginkoba therapy, lol.....
Take care everyone; nice thread here with lots of helpful info.. I maybe shouldn't have budded in with my previous comment above; won't happen again.....

TommyO, I'm not sticking up for the Republican's but wasn't it Bush 1 that started NAFTA & Clinton that got it passed? Just goes to show that you can't trust any of them :eek:

Folks, NAFTA is the North American free trade agreement: concerns trading with Canada and Mexico. If you don't like trade with China, go search for "China most favored nation" so you'll know what to argue against.

If you want to see really bad results for electronics consumers, vote in a bunch of protectionists and see what you get.

But I mean that in a friendly way. :)

Folks, NAFTA is the North American free trade agreement: concerns trading with Canada and Mexico. If you don't like trade with China, go search for "China most favored nation" so you'll know what to argue against.

If you want to see really bad results for electronics consumers, vote in a bunch of protectionists and see what you get.

But I mean that in a friendly way. :)
We already have a different flavor of protectionism courtesy of the recording industry lobby. America is becoming a consumer electronics backwater because of their influence in Congress. We're finally getting DVD recorders with digital tuners, but we don't get all the good stuff that can be purchased in Europe or especially Japan, such as DVR recorders with big hard drives. And who knows when or even if we will get HDDVD or BluRay burners. I'm dreaming of a BluRay burner with a 500GB hard drive and a DTVLink Firewire connection (MPEG2) for streaming to and from my Mitsubishi TV.

"I know a lot of people are wanting a $200 DVD recorder that doubles as an HD tuner for their HD-Ready TV -- sorry, I just don't see that happening any time soon. "

This is about the same response I was getting 2 years ago when I asked repeatedly on several forums about a ATSC DVD recorder to replace my Steam Powered VHS recorder.

I got replies of it can't be done and are you an idiot for even thinking so? To you just don't get it do you. How can you expect to fit an HD signal on a DVD? It would only hold about ten minutes worth and so on and so on and so on.

I don't remember one person suggesting that it could be down converted and upconverted to fit on a DVD. Which would have been a fine by me as at least I would be able to record the multicast channels even if they were digital quality vs HD quality.

And let us all not forget the Goverment is going to be making money off of these broadcast frequencies they are freeing up. Meanwhile they have frozen any licenses towards getting any additional transmit ATSC stations across the US. At least as of last year, I have not checked this year.

-DonB2

It is true that most people will qualify and you can get 2 vouchers per household. The purpose of the voucher is to assist people to replace the analog tuner that will become non-functional with a digital equivalent. The government is not interested (nor should they be) in subsidizing peoples upgrade to HD reception.

It remains to be seen how much these converters will cost, the vouchers are only good for $40.
As I mentioned in other threads there doesn't seem to be anything place to keep someone from buying an "approved" STB with the voucher and turning around and trade that in for a DVDr. Basically, you can spend the $40 anyway you want.

This is about the same response I was getting 2 years ago when I asked repeatedly on several forums about a ATSC DVD recorder to replace my Steam Powered VHS recorder.


Obviously you were getting misinformation. The 3/1/07 tuner mandate was fixed in late 05 and was known way before then. Informed folks knew that DVDrs (or any other TV equipment) with ATSC tuners were coming for many years - the only thing in debate was the timing.

We already have a different flavor of protectionism courtesy of the recording industry lobby. America is becoming a consumer electronics backwater because of their influence in Congress. We're finally getting DVD recorders with digital tuners, but we don't get all the good stuff that can be purchased in Europe or especially Japan, such as DVR recorders with big hard drives. And who knows when or even if we will get HDDVD or BluRay burners. I'm dreaming of a BluRay burner with a 500GB hard drive and a DTVLink Firewire connection (MPEG2) for streaming to and from my Mitsubishi TV.
I can't speak to the lobbyists and such, but I do want to comment about the US getting scraps while Japan and Europe get the good stuff.

The reason that Japan and Europe get the good stuff is that they are willing to pay for it. That BluRay/500GB/FW device that you speak of would be great and the Japanese are willing to pay for it. They pay mucho $$$ for their gear.

American, on the other hand, are not willing to pay for electronics. We've become consumers who are only willing to pay for items when they have subsidies attached. Of course, that entails some sort of monthly fee, either for service or equipment leasing. Personally, I would rather buy my equipment and be able to take it from provider to provider, but the way the systems are set up (perhaps intentionally), that's not possible.

Funnily enough, computers have not become a subsidized device like cellphones and DVRs. That doesn't mean that "they" aren't still trying.

ft

"Obviously you were getting misinformation. The 3/1/07 tuner mandate was fixed in late 05 and was known way before then. Informed folks knew that DVDrs (or any other TV equipment) with ATSC tuners were coming for many years - the only thing in debate was the timing. "

Where were you when I was postng about this a couple years ago? It would have been nice having someone say it was plausible.

BTW- Do you know if the Licenses for broad cast towers is still on hold?

-Donb2

I don't know anything about towers. The requirement for ATSC was real easy to find - everything was available from the FCC site - including the 11/05 decision to fix the 3/1/07 date. Anyone could have guessed over 10 years ago when this whole digital transition was being put in place that eventually all TV equipment will have a digital tuner - so a DVDr with a digital tuner would have been obvious.

As I mentioned in other threads there doesn't seem to be anything place to keep someone from buying an "approved" STB with the voucher and turning around and trade that in for a DVDr.I have a feeling that ebay will be-a-teaming with them ;).

I have a feeling that ebay will be-a-teaming with them ;).
I don't think that people will even bother with the STB - they'll just trade the coupon itself on ebay. :eek:

"over 10 years ago when this whole digital transition was being put in place that eventually all TV equipment will have a digital tuner - so a DVDr with a digital tuner would have been obvious. "

Wow! Did not even know DVD recorders existed 10 years ago.

I don't think they had even decided on a ATSC standard back then.

-DonB2

I think that that ATSC standard was formed in 1998 (less than 10 years ago). Not sure when the first DVD recorder (stand alone) was available. The first I remember in the states was 2002, so I'm sure it was after 1996/97 on the worldwide front.

Edit: seems it was formed in 1982 and the DTV standard was adopted by the FCC in late 1996.
http://www.atsc.org/aboutatsc.html

A lot of people are talking about the government’s role in all of this, but I’d be more curious to look at it from a manufacturer’s point of view. If a company built a DVD recorder that recorded in SD but also had an ATSC tuner that passed through HD, would there be a big enough market for such a device that it would make money for a company to produce such a product? Or aren’t there enough people like me interested in one for a company to make a profit selling such a recorder? I don’t know how much more it would add to the cost of the DVD recorder either to have an HD ATSC tuner that would be able to pass through HD content which would be a factor in how well it would sell too.

I’d be more curious to look at it from a manufacturer’s point of view. If a company built a DVD recorder that recorded in SD but also had an ATSC tuner that passed through HD, would there be a big enough market for such a device that it would make money for a company to produce such a product?

That is the important question. I would think that such a DVDR would be very attractive to anyone with a HD set without a HD tuner, using OTA, after analog shutdown. But, that is a pretty small subset. They would also be good for people who have PIP, but are OTA. The other factor is when and if we get a DVDR in some HD format, which would obviate the need. Still, if they are producing them for other countries, it doesn't seem like it would be too much trouble to make a US version.

That is the important question. I would think that such a DVDR would be very attractive to anyone with a HD set without a HD tuner, using OTA, after analog shutdown. But, that is a pretty small subset. They would also be good for people who have PIP, but are OTA. The other factor is when and if we get a DVDR in some HD format, which would obviate the need. Still, if they are producing them for other countries, it doesn't seem like it would be too much trouble to make a US version.


AS I said earlier, having one component REDUCES the ground clutter and cabling for the TV but
as was said also, since MOST of the newer HDTV ()will or do)have builtin ATSC & QAM
then my need leaves me in too small a consumer subset to build for.

unless

The ATSC tuners used to manufacture get cheaper or
the industry wants my $200+ for a new DVD recorder! :D

Could the customer be right?

BC

What about the much larger subset of folks who get their HD via cable? It seems to me that a QAM tuner equipped DVDr would be pretty useful to an even larger population than the required ATSC tuner equipped unit. The largest audience watches network programming via cable and most cable cos send those chs in clear QAM. Of course all of this comes back to one thing - that same cable customer wants the lowest initial outlay to watch his HD - no matter how you explain it, $10/mo to the cable co seems cheaper than a $200 DVDr.

I agree with Biker.

I have standard Mediacon cable but they send through the local HD channels. I really would like to buy a DVR/DVD Recorder, but it's next to impossible to find a DVD Recorder with HDD, ATSC, and QAM. To me, buying a unit without QAM is really just buying an expensive VCR.

I already give my cable company hundreds of dollars per year. I do not want to give them another $10/month for a DVR. But it almost looks like that's my only real option. Even then, I still need a DVD Recorder if I want to put things on DVD. But at least there are options for a guy to pay money and get a quality product.

People say it all the time on here, but it's sad that my equipment will come from Wallyworld. It won't be a big brand name either, because they don't make the products we want for the US.

I just found this on Amazon
Sony RDR-GXD455 Single Deck DVD Recorder with Built In HD Tuner. The description claims "...record favorite terrestrial HD programming" and "Its included ATSC/NTSC/QAM tuner makes it easier to record and burn high-definition TV."

But then I saw this announcement in PC World (can't post the link yet)
Sony DVD Recorders Add Digital Tuner
"...Unfortunately, you can't record in high-definition to standard-definition DVDs. The unit will only record in standard definition, down-converting the image from the high-def feed the ATSC tuner will receive." Doesn't mention anything about pass-through. I suppose that description and the price could be a tip-off.

BTW, also found Sony versions in UK and Australia with PAL/NTSC/ATSC, 160 HDD, DivX. £260, $650 (Australian). These have apparently been out for a while. Aargh!

I am still wondering how the business model of owning and operating a OTA ATSC TV station works.

I realise revenue comes from Advertising but it just seems like there could be QAM available local stations that could exist on Local Cable or SAT only, but still be local station advertisers without the expense of a broadcast tower.

Is there some rule that if you are a Local ABC, CBS, NBC, or Fox affiliate that you have to have a broadcast tower?

-DonB2

I am still wondering how the business model of owning and operating a OTA ATSC TV station works.

I realise revenue comes from Advertising but it just seems like there could be QAM available local stations that could exist on Local Cable or SAT only, but still be local station advertisers without the expense of a broadcast tower.

Is there some rule that if you are a Local ABC, CBS, NBC, or Fox affiliate that you have to have a broadcast tower?

It is kind of complicated, but in the end it comes down to the number of viewers a station has. The more people who watch a show on a station, the more the station can charge advertisers. Since not everyone has cable (some have satellite which may not have all the local stations and some only use OTA), not everyone will be able to watch the channel if they don't broadcast OTA, resulting in a smaller potential market. Also, I don't know if it the same in the USA, but here in Canada local broadcast stations are required to be given preferential (lower) channel numbers on cable, thus improving the chance of people watching their channel by channel surfers and people with older TVs that don't receive the higher channels. We also have something called simulsubbing, but I am pretty sure you don't have that down there.

As for ATSC OTA, FCC regulations are forcing stations to start broadcasting digitally now or risk losing their broadcast license after the 2009 analog shutdown. Could a station stop broadcasting OTA and become a cable only channel? Yes, but there will most definitely be consequences for that decision.

Are there any plans to make the voucher-compliant tuners <b>work seemlessly</b> with analog recording devices? For example, will grandma be able to have the digital tuner installed and then use her VCR the same way? Or will you have to change channels from the tuner?

In other words, will (or can) the tuners convert all the channels at once, or can they only do one at a time?

Apart from the grandmas, this is also of interest to everyone with analog recorders (DVD, VCR)

Are there any plans to make the voucher-compliant tuners <b>work seemlessly</b> with analog recording devices? For example, will grandma be able to have the digital tuner installed and then use her VCR the same way? Or will you have to change channels from the tuner?

In other words, will (or can) the tuners convert all the channels at once, or can they only do one at a time?

Apart from the grandmas, this is also of interest to everyone with analog recorders (DVD, VCR)
As someone who records with a DVD/HDD recorder using a STB digital tuner
to record OTA digital programming, I can tell you that you can only watch
or record whichever channel the tuner is receiving.
I understand people with satellite have to do it the same way...

single tuner, single channel...grandma will need a VCR with an IR blaster.

They don't "convert" anything but the output....they tune one digital channel at a time and then output it (convert) at 480i for legacy devices.

I was just in my local BB and was looking at the LG RC797T. Right on the box and on the equipment it specifically says HDTV Tuner. I then looked at the DR787T and it made no such claim. Considering Phillips and others are calling their tuners SDTV Tuners I think that we quite possibly have the first DVDR that has a digital tuner that actually passes the HD signal to your TV. Too bad it has a VCR that you have to pay an extra $90 for.

Are there any plans to make the voucher-compliant tuners <b>work seemlessly</b> with analog recording devices? For example, will grandma be able to have the digital tuner installed and then use her VCR the same way? Or will you have to change channels from the tuner?

In other words, will (or can) the tuners convert all the channels at once, or can they only do one at a time?

Apart from the grandmas, this is also of interest to everyone with analog recorders (DVD, VCR)Don't expect these converter boxes to be anything more than a very basic STB, i.e. an external tuner. Maybe if we are lucky, the ir-blaster will work with it. At any rate, if you want full functionality of both TV and recorder operating independently, you will have to buy one of these for each device - one for the TV, one for the DVDR, one for the legacy VCR. No matter how you slice it 2/09 is going to be expensive for a lot of people. I have 4 analog TV's, 2 VCR's and a DVDR. I'm not about to go buying 7 of those boxes.

I was just in my local BB and was looking at the LG RC797T. Right on the box and on the equipment it specifically says HDTV Tuner.

Had one of these (grandparents have it now) about 3 weeks ago. I am 100% certain that it can tune an HDTV channel (I.e. digital channel showing an HD program) and I'm also 100% sure that it outputs an SD signal...check the RC787T thread, I discussed the 797 and gave a brief review.

The only real reason we are getting stuck with a digital only tv system soon is greed anyways. The government can hardy wait to auction off the old VHF tv spectrum, big money in it for them. Then they'll probably try to make it illegal to receive and listen to whatever ends up there like they did for cell phones and cordless...

The only real reason we are getting stuck with a digital only tv system soon is greed anyways. The government can hardy wait to auction off the old VHF tv spectrum, big money in it for them.The FCC plans for at least a portion of it to go to mobile internet service. I forgot the name but something similar to wifi. If it works we will be able to make phone calls from our mobile internet devices for much cheaper than cell phones. :-)

The government can hardy wait to auction off the old VHF tv spectrum, big money in it for them. Then they'll probably try to make it illegal to receive and listen to whatever ends up there like they did for cell phones and cordless...

Actually, they are auctioning off the upper portion of the UHF channels (52-69), not the VHF.

http://www.dtv.gov/inthenews.html

single tuner, single channel...grandma will need a VCR with an IR blaster.

They don't "convert" anything but the output....they tune one digital channel at a time and then output it (convert) at 480i for legacy devices.
OK, I give up. What, exactly is a IR Blaster?

OK, I give up. What, exactly is a IR Blaster?
IR blaster = Infrared Blaster

This sends an infrared signal from one device to another.

Some of the DVD-Recorders come with them. It plugs into the back of the DVD-Recorder, and then you place the "beaming" part in front of the IR reciever on your VCR, Satellite box, Cable box, etc.

You can set up the DVD-Recorder to turn another device to a certain channel - to be recorded by your DVD-recorder.

OK, thanks. :)

Maybe if we are lucky, the ir-blaster will work with it.
One problem is that some recorders do not support two-part channel numbers. For example, if a local DTV station uses channel 2.1, how do you program the VCR to blast a "2", a dot, and a "1" to the STB?

There might be a way around this problem. For example, the STB could allow the user to manually associate each two-part number with a new one-part number. You could associate 2.1 with 21 (or with any number you want). That way, whenever the VCR blasts "2" and "1" to the STB, the STB would actually tune to 2.1.

Philips dvdr3545 DVD/VCR recorder manual now available:
http://www.p4c.philips.com/na4/d/dvdr3545v_37/dvdr3545v_37_dfu_aen.pdf

One problem is that some recorders do not support two-part channel numbers. For example, if a local DTV station uses channel 2.1, how do you program the VCR to blast a "2", a dot, and a "1" to the STB?

There might be a way around this problem. For example, the STB could allow the user to manually associate each two-part number with a new one-part number. You could associate 2.1 with 21 (or with any number you want). That way, whenever the VCR blasts "2" and "1" to the STB, the STB would actually tune to 2.1.
Erik,

Maybe I mis-read Kelson's post, but wouldn't the VCR only be recording the output of the ATSC STB? I would think the STB would be programmed to turn itself on and tune into a channel at the programmed time. It would then send a signal (via IR) to turn on the VCR and begin recording on the appropriate input (presumably the composite line-in).

Since the VCR wouldn't have an ATSC tuner, you could just leave it in the Line1 input. Or Channel 3/4 if you connect the STB to the VCR via coax.

ft

Maybe I mis-read Kelson's post, but wouldn't the VCR only be recording the output of the ATSC STB? I would think the STB would be programmed to turn itself on and tune into a channel at the programmed time. It would then send a signal (via IR) to turn on the VCR and begin recording on the appropriate input (presumably the composite line-in).



I believe that this is how most cable boxes work. The new digital tuner flavored VCR combos (LG is specific) works just the opposite. So it can tune the subchannel without problem. Then again it will only work with specific cable satellite boxes.

So theoretically you could go both ways :)

I record from my Samsung to my VCR with video out and audio.

I go to the SAMSUNG EPG and select a station to time record and than go to my RCA Steam Powered VCR and set it up for the same time but tell it Video1 in instead of a channel and away it records.

Works ok for me as long as it is not some quality show I am time recording. But it sure would never work for my Mom.

-DonB2

Erik,

Maybe I mis-read Kelson's post, but wouldn't the VCR only be recording the output of the ATSC STB? I would think the STB would be programmed to turn itself on and tune into a channel at the programmed time. It would then send a signal (via IR) to turn on the VCR and begin recording on the appropriate input (presumably the composite line-in).

Since the VCR wouldn't have an ATSC tuner, you could just leave it in the Line1 input. Or Channel 3/4 if you connect the STB to the VCR via coax.

ft
I was referring to the case in which the VCR blasts IR commands to the STB.

Alternatively, the STB could blast IR commands to the VCR, as you mentioned.

Yet another way would be to avoid the IR blaster altogether, and just schedule them independently. That is, you would schedule the STB to tune itself to a certain channel at a certain time (if the STB offers such a feature), and you would also schedule the VCR to record at that same time.

If you want to do that you will have to buy your device (DVDR or VCR) a real STB for a lot of money. The specs for the official converter boxes do not have programability as either a required or allowed feature. It's just a simple tuner to change the channels.

This whole thing is going to get expensive to retain existing functionality.

single tuner, single channel...grandma will need a VCR with an IR blaster.

They don't "convert" anything but the output....they tune one digital channel at a time and then output it (convert) at 480i for legacy devices.


I don't know how tuners work, so what I am asking could be technically impossible, but I'll ask anyways:

Is it technically feasible to make a "device" that takes the digital signals as input (assuming they are not encrypted or otherwise blocked) and sprews them in a way that analog TVs/VCRs/DVRs/DVD-Recs/etc can use as if they were analog signals coming off the wall of old-school cable or over the analog-air? :-)

I don't know how tuners work, so what I am asking could be technically impossible, but I'll ask anyways:

Is it technically feasible to make a "device" that takes the digital signals as input (assuming they are not encrypted or otherwise blocked) and sprews them in a way that analog TVs/VCRs/DVRs/DVD-Recs/etc can use as if they were analog signals coming off the wall of old-school cable or over the analog-air? :-)

Sure it is possible, since that is what the digital cable boxes you get from the cable companies do.

Lot of people have digital cable boxes but only have them hooked up the "old fashioned way" though analog outputs on the boxes to the TVs, recorders, vcr's.

And if you read the posts of the new ATSC/QAM turner recorders, they too have composite or other analog outputs to hook them to analog inputs of TV's.

Is it technically feasible to make a "device" that takes the digital signals as input (assuming they are not encrypted or otherwise blocked) and sprews them in a way that analog TVs/VCRs/DVRs/DVD-Recs/etc can use as if they were analog signals coming off the wall of old-school cable or over the analog-air? :-)

That is exactly what the convert boxes that the government will be handing out coupons will do.

That is what all of the current DVD recorders do. Take a digital signal and output in an analog format. If you TV doesn't have any analog inputs other than the RF connector, the LG DVD recorders may be your choice as they have a built in modulator and not just an RF pass through.

Now if you looking for something that can take the signal, convert it and then pass it through to your TV so you can tune different channels using the NTSC tuner, then that doesn't exist and since each channel is a different frequency it doesn't sound possible.

If you want to do that you will have to buy your device (DVDR or VCR) a real STB for a lot of money. The specs for the official converter boxes do not have programability as either a required or allowed feature. It's just a simple tuner to change the channels.

This whole thing is going to get expensive to retain existing functionality.
I wonder if the STB could change channels without requiring that the "dot" be entered. For example, if a local DTV station uses channel 2.1, you would normally press "2" "dot" "1" on the remote control. Maybe you could also just press "2" "1" (without the "dot") and the STB would change to 2.1. That way, recorders that don't support the "dot" could send IR commands to change channels on the STB.

I wonder if the STB could change channels without requiring that the "dot" be entered. For example, if a local DTV station uses channel 2.1, you would normally press "2" "dot" "1" on the remote control. Maybe you could also just press "2" "1" (without the "dot") and the STB would change to 2.1. That way, recorders that don't support the "dot" could send IR commands to change channels on the STB.
That wouldn't work where I live, as there is a Channel 21 with sub channels. :)

Now if you looking for something that can take the signal, convert it and then pass it through to your TV so you can tune different channels using the NTSC tuner, then that doesn't exist and since each channel is a different frequency it doesn't sound possible.

Yes that's what I was trying to say but I didn't explain it very clearly! So it is not technically possible? Or if it was, would it be too expensive?

There could be a market for this as people could continue to use their existing analog tuners the same way as before :) - assuming it would be technically feasible and not prohibited by the laws/rules that passed as part of the digital conversion.

Yes that's what I was trying to say but I didn't explain it very clearly! So it is not technically possible? Or if it was, would it be too expensive?

There could be a market for this as people could continue to use their existing analog tuners the same way as before :) - assuming it would be technically feasible and not prohibited by the laws/rules that passed as part of the digital conversion.
One of those things that would be nice, but will never be seen
in the market place.

One of those things that would be nice, but will never be seen
in the market place.

Why? Can it not be done technically? If yes, 3rd parties will probably built them even if the major manufacturers dont include them....

A number of people will want to buy them so they can continue to use their devices as before, whether it's the low-tech grandma or the geek with a VHS rack from the 60s :-)

Philips dvdr3545 DVD/VCR recorder manual now available:
http://www.p4c.philips.com/na4/d/dvdr3545v_37/dvdr3545v_37_dfu_aen.pdf

Can anyone tell if this one passes through HDTV through it's tuner? The manual says it down converts when recording, but I can't tell for sure if it passes through high definition to the display from the tuner. Below were a few things I read, but I couldn't find anything definitive either way from the manual.

page 32

"About digital TV broadcasting:
With its high definition broadcast, digital broadcasting far
surpasses analog broadcasting in both its picture and
sound quality."

Page 38.

"All high definition pictures will be down converted to
the standard definition pictures when they are
recorded on this unit."

Page 114

"HDMI output
HDMI jack x 1
Video: 480p, 720p, 1080i, 1080p"

Why? Can it not be done technically? If yes, 3rd parties will probably built them even if the major manufacturers dont include them....

A number of people will want to buy them so they can continue to use their devices as before, whether it's the low-tech grandma or the geek with a VHS rack from the 60s :-)

Technically possible, I would think so.

Feasible, at a price you and I would pay, I would think not.
It would certainly be a limited market product.

Grandma could probably buy several new TV's and DVDr's with digital tuners
for what it would cost.

Can anyone tell if this one passes through HDTV through it's tuner? The manual says it down converts when recording, but I can't tell for sure if it passes through high definition to the display from the tuner.No, it doesn't.

And it is unlikely that a non-PC based DVD recorder will ever be released that will do so.

And it is unlikely that a non-PC based DVD recorder will ever be released that will do so.
Really? I'm working on one right now.

Ron

Really? I'm working on one right now.

Ron

You have a DVD Recorder that passes through the HDTV signal so that live programming can be viewed in HD? Or do you work for a company that is developing a product like that for 2008 and beyond...please don't tease us ;)

You have a DVD Recorder that passes through the HDTV signal so that live programming can be viewed in HD? Or do you work for a company that is developing a product like that for 2008 and beyond...please don't tease us ;)
The latter. Here's my bio.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8155354&&#post8155354

Ron

Why? Can it not be done technically? If yes, 3rd parties will probably built them even if the major manufacturers dont include them....

A number of people will want to buy them so they can continue to use their devices as before, whether it's the low-tech grandma or the geek with a VHS rack from the 60s :-)
Conversion of each digital channel to analog RF would require an ATSC tuner, an MPEG2 decoder and an RF generator. The RF signals would then have to be combined. A device could be built with any number of such conversion modules, but each one would be about as complex as an ATSC set-top box and would probably cost about as much using today's technology. Cable companies can pay thousands of dollars for such equipment, but don't hold your breath waiting for a consumer version. It would probably never be cheaper than just buying an HDTV.

The latter. Here's my bio.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8155354&&#post8155354

Ron
Ron,

Thanks for speaking up. I had a feeling that if a true HD-pass-through unit was coming, you would likely be involved or at least aware.

For any readers unfamiliar with Ron "dr1394," his expertise and personal experience and involvement with OEM capailities and product development in this arena enable him to accurately tell us what to expect in the near future. IMHO, he would not state anything here unless he is sure we will be seeing it sometime soon.

Soon is a relative term. We won't see "Ron's" product till sometime next year.

Conversion of each digital channel to analog RF would require an ATSC tuner, an MPEG2 decoder and an RF generator. The RF signals would then have to be combined. A device could be built with any number of such conversion modules, but each one would be about as complex as an ATSC set-top box and would probably cost about as much using today's technology. Cable companies can pay thousands of dollars for such equipment, but don't hold your breath waiting for a consumer version. It would probably never be cheaper than just buying an HDTV.

Thanks for the explanation and the price estimates! So we are unlikely to see anything like that.

That means a cable box for each existing analog device that we want to use a tuner on and the additional headache of programming both or using an IR blaster if it supports it :-(

The good news is that in one of the other threads they said that the cable companies may have to keep the analog versions of the OTA channels on the wire after 2009 so the people with basic cable wont have to get a STB (how many are they as a percentage of cable subscribers?).

Soon is a relative term. We won't see "Ron's" product till sometime next year.
I suspect you're right.

I suspect you're right.Still won't believe it until I actually see it ;).

That wouldn't work where I live, as there is a Channel 21 with sub channels. :)
It still might work, as long as the minor channel numbers have just a single digit, which is often the case. For example, 21 would become 2.1, and 211 would become 21.1 (not 2.11). The STB would automatically insert the dot before the final digit.

Will any of the new DVD Recorders with digital tuners record in 16x9 wide screen at 720x480 without letterboxing? I tried the new Polaroid and it will NOT do it.

Thanks,
Gary

The Panasonics will record in 16/9 widescreen (to RAM disks only). Even the older
Panasonics will do this. I have a DMR-ES10 that will. I stand to be corrected
but I think any of the newer recorders that will record to a RAM disk will do
16/9. It's not HD though.

Will any of the new DVD Recorders with digital tuners record in 16x9 wide screen at 720x480 without letterboxing? I tried the new Polaroid and it will NOT do it.

Thanks,
Gary

There are two factors to this
1) Whether the dvd recorder can do it
2) Whether you have a source that produces such a signal in an output that your dvd recorder can record from (eg a cable STB box may offer 16x9 output via component, but the dvd recorder does not have component input))

There are two factors to this
1) Whether the dvd recorder can do it
2) Whether you have a source that produces such a signal in an output that your dvd recorder can record from (eg a cable STB box may offer 16x9 output via component, but the dvd recorder does not have component input))
I think the real question is whether a new DVD recorder with an internal digital tuner can record 16x9 widescreen anamorphic (a.k.a., enhanced for widescreen) DVDs all within the unit. In other words, start with an HDTV program and end up with an widescreen-flagged anamorphic DVD recording.

I can do this with separate boxes today, meeting the criteria you describe above. But, like others, I would like a one-box solution for the same results.

I thought the LG could record 16:9 anamorphic, though it can only record 480, not 720 or 1080. I know some others (Magnavox) can record the 16:9 signal, but they don't set the anamorphic flag.

The Phillips 3505 will also record (480) the 16:9 signal but doesn't seem to set the anamorphic flag (just like the Magnavox mentioned above).

The latter. Here's my bio.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8155354&&#post8155354

Ron


Can you share with us some insight into why these 1st gen ATSC dvd recorders do not pass true HD through when not recording?

I am under the assumption that the built-in ATSC tuner is similar to those in HDTVs, so that passing an unmodified HD signal to HDMI out would have been relatively simple to include. Was there a technological reason that this feature would have to be delayed to a 2nd gen product?

Thanks for any insight

Can you share with us some insight into why these 1st gen ATSC dvd recorders do not pass true HD through when not recording?

I am under the assumption that the built-in ATSC tuner is similar to those in HDTVs, so that passing an unmodified HD signal to HDMI out would have been relatively simple to include. Was there a technological reason that this feature would have to be delayed to a 2nd gen product?

Thanks for any insight
For the LSI Domino 3 used in the Panasonic DMR-EZ17,27,37,47 recorders, it's has to do with the number of video output ports. The chip can be configured to have two SD outputs (one analog and one digital) or one HD digital output.

The problem with using one digital HD output, is that you still have to send SD to the S-Video and composite outputs. This would require an external HD to SD scaler chip and video D/A chip.

Since Panasonic has developed an HDMI chip with built-in SD to HD scaling, it's a much easier and less expensive design to use the two SD outputs. One goes to the analog S-Video and composite outputs and the other goes to the HDMI chip.

There's also a processing load and SDRAM bandwidth problem. When recording HD ATSC source, the Domino 3 has to do all of the following:

1) Transport Stream input
2) Transport Stream Demux
3) HD MPEG-2 decode
4) 5.1 AC-3 decode
5) HD to SD rescale
6) SD MPEG-2 encode
7) 2.0 AC-3 encode
8) Program Stream Mux
9) Video output
10) Audio output
11) Optical disk I/O

On Domino 5 (that will be used in next year's models), all of these issues have been taken care of. There will be an internal HD video D/A, internal HDMI, and more SDRAM bandwidth from using a faster DDR2 SDRAM controller.

Folks that are not using the LSI solution are in even worse shape. Most of them are using a two chip design with a Panasonic MV3 chip (used in last year's ES-15,25,35,45 models) along with a companion chip from Renesas that does Transport Stream input, demux and HD decoding.

Ron

Thanks Ron! That is very interesting.

Most illuminating! The high level of integration required to reach price points that will sell product these days seems to knock out alot of design options for manufacturers. Unless, of course, you can get the feature designed into the chip quickly and for not much more.

On Domino 5 (that will be used in next year's models), all of these issues have been taken care of. There will be an internal HD video D/A, internal HDMI, and more SDRAM bandwidth from using a faster DDR2 SDRAM controller.So from your statement, can we assume that Panasonic has committed to using the Domino-5 for it's next generation of recorders?

For the LSI Domino 3 used in the Panasonic DMR-EZ17,27,37,47 recorders, it's has to do with the number of video output ports. The chip can be configured to have two SD outputs (one analog and one digital) or one HD digital output.

The problem with using one digital HD output, is that you still have to send SD to the S-Video and composite outputs. This would require an external HD to SD scaler chip and video D/A chip.

Since Panasonic has developed an HDMI chip with built-in SD to HD scaling, it's a much easier and less expensive design to use the two SD outputs. One goes to the analog S-Video and composite outputs and the other goes to the HDMI chip.

There's also a processing load and SDRAM bandwidth problem. When recording HD ATSC source, the Domino 3 has to do all of the following:

1) Transport Stream input
2) Transport Stream Demux
3) HD MPEG-2 decode
4) 5.1 AC-3 decode
5) HD to SD rescale
6) SD MPEG-2 encode
7) 2.0 AC-3 encode
8) Program Stream Mux
9) Video output
10) Audio output
11) Optical disk I/O

On Domino 5 (that will be used in next year's models), all of these issues have been taken care of. There will be an internal HD video D/A, internal HDMI, and more SDRAM bandwidth from using a faster DDR2 SDRAM controller.

Folks that are not using the LSI solution are in even worse shape. Most of them are using a two chip design with a Panasonic MV3 chip (used in last year's ES-15,25,35,45 models) along with a companion chip from Renesas that does Transport Stream input, demux and HD decoding.

Ron

Very educational and informative! Thanks :-)

Speaking of chips in general, is anyone working on dual-tuner designs (even if only SD)?

I think the real question is whether a new DVD recorder with an internal digital tuner can record 16x9 widescreen anamorphic (a.k.a., enhanced for widescreen) DVDs all within the unit. In other words, start with an HDTV program and end up with an widescreen-flagged anamorphic DVD recording.

I can do this with separate boxes today, meeting the criteria you describe above. But, like others, I would like a one-box solution for the same results.
Dave;
Thanks! You got exactly what I was trying to say. I already use a 2 box solution (Sony DHG-HDD250 to Sony RDR-GX330). I was hoping for the one box solution but it looks like it is not going to be happening this year.

Gary

So from your statement, can we assume that Panasonic has committed to using the Domino-5 for it's next generation of recorders?
I meant next year's models in general. When we develop a new chip at LSI, it's targeted at all of the DVD recordable manufacturers. We also develop all of the generic reusable software ahead of time (usually before any actual customer engagement).

Since all of the larger manufacturers also have silicon capability, you'll see manufacturers that have used LSI in the past (Samsung, LG, Philips, Panasonic) switch back and forth between their own silicon and LSI silicon (on the R-120, Samsung switched from LSI to their own internal chip in the middle of production).

For this year's models, Panasonic was very sensitive to price. They felt that the entry level model (the DMR-EZ17) absolutely had to be $199 MSRP. I'll guess the LSI solution was probably less expensive than their own MV3 (plus companion chip) solution, so they went with LSI.

In the meantime, Panasonic semiconductor is developing their new DVD recordable silicon. That's the nutty world of DVD recordable silicon, where your customers are also your competitors.

Ron

fyi: I noticed the pany EZ47 at costco yesterday for $300.

fyi: I noticed the pany EZ47 at costco yesterday for $300.

Slightly different model number listed on costco.com - Model DMR-EX475VK. Specs also state HDMI Ver 1.3.

---SNIP---
I am under the assumption that the built-in ATSC tuner is similar to those in HDTVs, so that passing an unmodified HD signal to HDMI out would have been relatively simple to include. Was there a technological reason that this feature would have to be delayed to a 2nd gen product?

Thanks for any insightIn the US, it's illegal to record HD programs (in HD) over HDMI or Component conections (thanks to Hollywood paranoia and video pirates). Regarding the Component signal, that's an assumption on my part, since no one makes a commercial component connected recorder.

I am not up on the latest legal stuff, but apparently there is a HD flag which Cable & Satellite providers can use (optional, & not enforced, at present) to block HD programs from being displayed in 720p or 1080i over component connections (at least I can view HD programs with my new DirecTV STB using component connection - thank goodness, since my STB's HDMI connection still has signal drop-outs).

If dr1394, or anyone else, has more accurate information, please correct me, if I'm wrong.

In the US, it's illegal to record HD programs (in HD) over HDMI or Component conections (thanks to Hollywood paranoia and video pirates). Regarding the Component signal, that's an assumption on my part, since no one makes a commercial component connected recorder.



No it is not illegal. In fact there is very little law in this area. I have posted a long analysis on the issue on other AVS boards. As of this date, the legal staus of archiving broadcast material HD or not is unclear.

I record 1080i material all the time from my cable box. My cable company is fully aware of this and has no legal problem with this activity. HBOHD--STARZHD...everything.

Recording over component or HDMI is not possible. Component is analog, and HDMI is uncompressed video that wakes WAY too much room.

The only way to record is Firewire (IEEE 1394) which I use to record special HD events to D-VHS while I eagerly await a Blu-Ray recorder.

It's not any more illegal to record over component than it is to record over S-video or composite. The issue is that only 1 or 2 recorders have ever come out with component inputs to make it possible.

HDMI is a digital connection that was designed expressly to prevent direct recording of digital signals. By specification, HDMI incorporates HDCP (copy protection). In order to record from HDMI you would need a recorder that has an HDMI input and some sort of "video filter" to go between the recorder and source to remove the copy protection. This latter device could run afoul of the DMCA.

ok so the LG and the Magnavox will record in 16:9 ... but on what format ram or reg - or + ..and what model(s)?

ok so the LG and the Magnavox will record in 16:9 ... but on what format ram or reg - or + ..and what model(s)?

I've used both the LG and Magnavox DVD/VCR combos with ATSC tuners (don't remember the models, but each only has one).

In VR mode they would both record 16:9, but no anamorphic flag...meaning that if you played it back on a 4:3 TV the image would be horizontally compressed (tall skinny people). I didn't try -r mode...disc type (-R, -RW or -RAM) didn't seem to matter.

Will any of the new DVD Recorders with digital tuners record in 16x9 wide screen at 720x480 without letterboxing? I tried the new Polaroid and it will NOT do it.

Thanks,
Gary

The Panasonic and Magnavox units I tested do, but they had to be set to 16:9 TV Display output. Did you have the Polaroid set to 4:3 TV output?

ok so the LG and the Magnavox will record in 16:9 ... but on what format ram or reg - or + ..and what model(s)?
From personal experience, they will both record both 4:3 and 16:9 to the full 720 x 480 frame, using regular -RW. Neither, however, properly sets the flag. This has never bothered me as I always use RW and any keepers go to the PC for re-authoring.

I also discovered a very handy trick with the Mag; I wish I had thought to try it with the LG. If you have a 16:9 channel showing 4:3 (pillarbox), set the Mag to 4:3 pan & scan and it will record only the image, hence not wasting resolution recording bars. This also means the recording will now either fill a 4:3 TV or behave properly in the zoom / stretch modes of a 16:9 TV.

Mike

The Magnavox (um... model number... um? not sure, I'm not at home at the moment) will record 16:9 on everything I've tried. + -, even VHS (doesn't do RAM). Of course, it doesn't set the flag, but I don't care since I no longer have a 4:3 TV.

Got a Toshiba D-VR650 on May-31. This was a replacement for a prior Toshiba DVD recorder that had died. Toshiba was good and agreed to replace it despite it being three months out of warranty. It took them six months to send the new one, with calls each of the prior three months apologizing that it would be delayed again.

In that time, I upgraded to a HD/DVR and a Toshiba 65HM167 HDTV. You do not want to combine this unit with an HD setup. The picture on all but the upconverted DVD playback is bad. It does send 1080i to the TV (based on the TV info button) from the digital cable tuner, but the picture, over HDMI, does not look HD, at least compared to the STB or TV Tuner. The picture is 16:9 but is fuzzy and SD like.

Then I put in a DVD-RAM disc, this one does not take the cartridge type RAM, so I took the disc out of the cartridge and into the device. I recorded some TV, then played it back fine. I played a purchased DVD, which looked good @1080i, then put the DVD-RAM back in. Now the thing freezes up at start up and is unusable. I called Toshiba and they told me to send it back. Another $30 in shipping for something I no longer want.

I will sell the replacement for the replacement. I can not recommend this device.

I was in a Wal-Mart tonight and saw some of the DVD recorders with ATSC tuners. I am getting interested in getting one and it looks like this is a good place to start. I am not sure if I want to get one with hard drive recording or not, but looking at the Wiki it looks like there is a fairly small number of models to select from right now. I am familiar with recording on my DISH 622 that has multiple tuners, so I might like to get one that would give me the ability to record on one tuner while I am watching a different program on a second tuner at the same time. Does something like that exist yet? Also, it is going to take some time for me to review all of the posts here and help me narrow my search. Are there any other URLs that I should be looking at that reviews these and possibly compares one to another?

I was in a Wal-Mart tonight and saw some of the DVD recorders with ATSC tuners. I am getting interested in getting one and it looks like this is a good place to start. I am not sure if I want to get one with hard drive recording or not, but looking at the Wiki it looks like there is a fairly small number of models to select from right now. I am familiar with recording on my DISH 622 that has multiple tuners, so I might like to get one that would give me the ability to record on one tuner while I am watching a different program on a second tuner at the same time. Does something like that exist yet? Also, it is going to take some time for me to review all of the posts here and help me narrow my search. Are there any other URLs that I should be looking at that reviews these and possibly compares one to another?
There are only two recorders for 2007 that have both ATSC tuners
and hard drives.
The Polaroid DRA-01601A and the Philips DVDR3575H/37.
There are threads devoted to both machines in this forum,
but the Philips seems to be the better of the two.

And neither the Poloroid nor the Phillips have dual tuners. It is unlikely that they will ever put dual tuners in consumer DVDR's. These things are intended as digital replacements for VCRs. They are not meant to substitute for an STB or built-in ATSC tuner. No unit introduced so far will pass-through native HD from the tuner. Everything is down-converted to 480 -- some units are equipped with HDMI ouptut and will upconvert the down-converted signal.

And neither the Poloroid nor the Phillips have dual tuners. It is unlikely that they will ever put dual tuners in consumer DVDR's. These things are intended as digital replacements for VCRs. They are not meant to substitute for an STB or built-in ATSC tuner. No unit introduced so far will pass-through native HD from the tuner. Everything is down-converted to 480 -- some units are equipped with HDMI ouptut and will upconvert the down-converted signal.
Absolutely true. :)

And neither the Poloroid nor the Phillips have dual tuners. It is unlikely that they will ever put dual tuners in consumer DVDR's. These things are intended as digital replacements for VCRs. They are not meant to substitute for an STB or built-in ATSC tuner. No unit introduced so far will pass-through native HD from the tuner. Everything is down-converted to 480 -- some units are equipped with HDMI ouptut and will upconvert the down-converted signal.

I think there are a couple of expensive Japan-only 2007 models with dual tuners, but I don't know if they will make it out of Japan.

Also the DVR Panasonic is making for Comcast is a 250gb dual-tuner system. How hard would it be to add a dvd burner to it and sell it as EH-250? :-)

I think there are a couple of expensive Japan-only 2007 models with dual tuners, but I don't know if they will make it out of Japan.

Also the DVR Panasonic is making for Comcast is a 250gb dual-tuner system. How hard would it be to add a dvd burner to it and sell it as EH-250? :-)

Yeah, check out one of the awesome Sharp Aquos dual tuner DVRs (http://www.engadget.com/2007/02/14/sharps-5-aquos-hd-recorders-with-up-to-1tb-and-counting/) with 1 TB HDD available in Japan.

Consumers in the US are getting the short end of the stick. :(

Yeah, check out one of the awesome Sharp Aquos dual tuner DVRs (http://www.engadget.com/2007/02/14/sharps-5-aquos-hd-recorders-with-up-to-1tb-and-counting/) with 1 TB HDD available in Japan.

Consumers in the US are getting the short end of the stick. :(
We have too many lawyers in the U.S.

We have too many lawyers in the U.S.

Any indication that these lawyers are helping? :mad:

We have too many lawyers in the U.S.

I once heard that Japan has 10 times more engineers than lawyers and the US has 10 times more lawyers than engineers.

Any indication that these lawyers are helping?

Nope, and they never will. Most lawyers are only interested in lining their own pocketbooks.

What does it matter. Americans will never spend that kind of money for that kind of premium electronics. Not in any numbers that would make the marketing here worth it.

What does it matter. Americans will never spend that kind of money for that kind of premium electronics. Not in any numbers that would make the marketing here worth it.


Exactly. People here wish for them, but I bet that matybe one out of ten would buy one of those DVR's. It has nothing to do with lawyers or MPAA. It has to do with business. Company will not introduce a product unless they know, that it will sell at reasonable pace.

Also Japan is a very closed market. There are no Chinese companies and Korean Samsung or LG sell only PC LCD monitors. No TV's or any other electronics.

US market is open to pretty much anybody. It can be good and bad. It is good because it lowers prices, but bad because there are less decent products introduced to market. It is even more open than Europe, as US charges very little duty compared to EU. That is why prices in EU are much higher and there is half the brands there that we have here.

Exactly. People here wish for them, but I bet that matybe one out of ten would buy one of those DVR's. It has nothing to do with lawyers or MPAA. It has to do with business. Company will not introduce a product unless they know, that it will sell at reasonable pace.

Also Japan is a very closed market. There are no Chinese companies and Korean Samsung or LG sell only PC LCD monitors. No TV's or any other electronics.

US market is open to pretty much anybody. It can be good and bad. It is good because it lowers prices, but bad because there are less decent products introduced to market. It is even more open than Europe, as US charges very little duty compared to EU. That is why prices in EU are much higher and there is half the brands there that we have here.

You have a point about the US Market. The Japan market for cell phones is much different than the US Market. Japan tends to go through new cell phones every 9 months and the US takes 3 years or more. I think the reason for this is there is not a driving reason to upgrade. If there is a reason to purchase a new technology, it will sell here. Consider the large screen TV's that came on the US Market with a high price tag. Those that wanted that technology early paid for it, but not everyone bought early.

I claim the legal rights debate continues to impact technology and availability with confusion. Not something that we can deal with in this forum, but I would think it a mistake to say it is not a factor. IMHO

For the LSI Domino 3 used in the Panasonic DMR-EZ17,27,37,47 recorders, it's has to do with the number of video output ports. The chip can be configured to have two SD outputs (one analog and one digital) or one HD digital output.

The problem with using one digital HD output, is that you still have to send SD to the S-Video and composite outputs. This would require an external HD to SD scaler chip and video D/A chip.

Ron, Thanks for your insight. Just out of curiosity, can HD be scaled to SD without having to decompress and then re-compress the video stream?

Also, does the LSI Domino 3 interpret the AFD bits (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_Format_Descriptor) so that (if they are set properly) the digital SD output will be in either 4:3 or 16:9 appropriately without any black bars (either letter or pillar boxes) even if the broadcast has them? If so, can the recorder easily determine the aspect ratio so that the DAR flag can be set properly?

Do any recorders allow recording in 480p (without first downconverting to 480i), like a commercial DVD?

This would allow me to use our existing players at their maximum resolution.

Since we're Luddites and have but a 42" ED plasma, the extra resolution of the 720p or 1080i are really unnecessary.

Thanks,

Bill

Ron, Thanks for your insight. Just out of curiosity, can HD be scaled to SD without having to decompress and then re-compress the video stream?

Also, does the LSI Domino 3 interpret the AFD bits (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_Format_Descriptor) so that (if they are set properly) the digital SD output will be in either 4:3 or 16:9 appropriately without any black bars (either letter or pillar boxes) even if the broadcast has them? If so, can the recorder easily determine the aspect ratio so that the DAR flag can be set properly?
I believe Domino 3 is AFD compliant. However, I've never seen an ATSC bitstream in the wild with AFD data.

Scaling does not require a decompress/re-compress cycle.

Ron

Do any recorders allow recording in 480p (without first downconverting to 480i), like a commercial DVD?

This would allow me to use our existing players at their maximum resolution.

Since we're Luddites and have but a 42" ED plasma, the extra resolution of the 720p or 1080i are really unnecessary.

Thanks,

Bill
Commercial DVD's are 480i.

Ron

Do any recorders allow recording in 480p (without first downconverting to 480i), like a commercial DVD?

This would allow me to use our existing players at their maximum resolution.

Since we're Luddites and have but a 42" ED plasma, the extra resolution of the 720p or 1080i are really unnecessary.

Thanks,

Bill
They all record in 480p. As long as you have a TV that can handle progressive scan input (that's what the p in 480p stands for), you can take advantage of that output. The LG will upconvert to 1080i out of HDMI and puts out 480p through the component outputs.

They all record in 480p. As long as you have a TV that can handle progressive scan input (that's what the p in 480p stands for), you can take advantage of that output. The LG will upconvert to 1080i out of HDMI and puts out 480p through the component outputs.
They all record in 480i.

Most can output in 480p but all require 480i input for recording.

They all record in 480i.

Most can output in 480p but all require 480i input for recording.

I stand corrected. "DVD recorders do not actually record in progressive scan; progressive scan is a process that can be applied during the playback function" . All DVD's are recorded in 480i in order to be compatible.

Are there any HTIB yet in this category?

Are there any HTIB yet in this category?No, but there's a Panasonic HTIB that has an 80 GB hard drive for audio recordings only.

(Not that that has anything to do with this thread or subforum :).)

Do any of the current DVD recorders with ATSC & QAM tuners have seperate antenna (RF) inputs 1 for cable and 1 for OTA?

Thanks,
Gary

the only thing close was the JVC DVHS Recorder that recorded native 1080i or 720p OTA. of course its on tape but its all we got until one day someone bring a bluray or HD DVD recorder with component or HDMI INPUTS

I've been waiting to buy a DVDR (with hard drive) with a QAM tuner for a while. Now it seems my best bet is Philips DVDR3575H/37. I've also read other threads and am aware of issues it has.

Does anyone know if Panasonic or any other manufactures have near term plan to produce such a unit? Thanks!

I've been waiting to buy a DVDR (with hard drive) with a QAM tuner for a while. Now it seems my best bet is Philips DVDR3575H/37. I've also read other threads and am aware of issues it has.

Does anyone know if Panasonic or any other manufactures have near term plan to produce such a unit? Thanks!
AFAIK there are only two recorders on the market
with both an ATSC tuner and a hard drive.
The Philips DVDR3575H/37 and a Polaroid model,
with the Philips getting much better reviews here.

I've been waiting to buy a DVDR (with hard drive) with a QAM tuner for a while. Now it seems my best bet is Philips DVDR3575H/37. I've also read other threads and am aware of issues it has.

Does anyone know if Panasonic or any other manufactures have near term plan to produce such a unit? Thanks!For the US market, Panasonic has said "no" for 2007 and "we'll see" for 2008; Pioneer is out of the business; Toshiba is anyones guess.

I think for the Japanese, and maybe others just not the U.S., Panasonic will release a DVD recorder using one of their SD High Capacity (SDHC) cards as the storage medium, or at least as an alternate. Their current Pro High Speed Class 6 cards can write at 20 Mbps.

A recent article stated:

"Panasonic plans to introduce an 8GB and 16GB SDHC card in the later half of 2007, stated a company press release. By 2008, Panasonic plans to release a 32GB SD card, according to Panasonic Product Category Specialist Michael Amico in the Optical Division."

The U.S. controllers of our viewing choices and hardware features, the MPAA, will never allow a little stick to carry one of their movies from place to place! :mad:

I'm not pleased with SONY recently. I bought an RDR-VXD655 DVD recorder/VCR combo and it was DEFECTIVE right out of the box (not open box or refurb). ANY DVD, whether burned by me or a purchased movie, showed "digital artifacts" in the picture--black dots, yellow or green pixel-looking marks. When viewing an all-black screen on a DVD, it was like watching the opening of The Matrix with all the green pixels all over the screen. Seems like Sonys are now "Made in China" (were previously made in Japan or Malasia) and along with cutting costs on production, they're now using substandard electronic components in their products. BOO to Sony! You lost my "brand loyalty"!!

Besides the Panasonic DMR-EZ series. Are there any DVD Recorders that can do time shifting?

The Philips DVDR3575H/37 for one.

You can also do timeshifting with a DVD-RAM in the LG 787T and 797T.
It's awkward to do compared to a Tivo that I don't recommend it.
If this is an important feature for you - get a DVD Recorder with a Hard drive.

Have there been any DVD/VCR recorder combos yet that has an ATSC tuner that passes through HD instead of just SD? I know none record in HD, but I'd like to get one that passes through HD for viewing. There was some talk about maybe in the future when I was looking around half a year ago. I haven't kept up since, but I haven't found any when looking recently.

No, none yet, Probably the same models out there that were out last time you looked.

Have there been any DVD/VCR recorder combos yet that has an ATSC tuner that passes through HD instead of just SD? I know none record in HD, but I'd like to get one that passes through HD for viewing. There was some talk about maybe in the future when I was looking around half a year ago. I haven't kept up since, but I haven't found any when looking recently. It says the following about the RDR-VXD655 on Sony's Web site:

"Sony Set Top Box Pass Through: Allows for viewing of programming from Cable Set Top Box or Satellite Receiver even when the recorder is powered off through the line input. You can see TV programs of the connected Cable Set Top Box or Satellite Receiver, regardless if the recorder is powered on or not."

If the RDR-VXD655 is turned off then I don't see how it can down-rez/up-rez the signal. It takes juice to perform that task, right?

Crutchfield's website says receives all HDTV/SDTV broadcast formats — records and displays TV broadcasts in standard definition only