An updated list is being kept at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DVD_recorder#Comparison_of_2007_ATSC_DVD_recorders

All have a DVD recorder so far. All downscale the native HD signal.
Therefore you will get better picture quality from a dedicated ATSC tuner such as the Samsung DTB-H260F (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=728392)
<table border=1><tr><th>MFG
</th><th>Model ID</th><th>Features</th><th>Price</th><th>Available</th><th>Manual</th><th>More info
</th></tr><tr><td rowspan=2>LG
</td><td>DR787T (http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=8251517&type=product&productCategoryId=pcmcat13900050019&id=1169512521931)</td><td></td><td>230</td><td rowspan=2>Now </td><td></td><td rowspan=2>Forum thread
(http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=818511) Review (http://www1.epinions.com/content_334627114628)</td>
</tr><tr><td>DR797T (http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=8251535&type=product&productCategoryId=pcmcat13900050019&id=1169512521998)
</td><td>VCR</td><td>300</td><td> </td></tr><tr><TD rowspan=4>Panasonic
</td><TD colspan=6>All have QAM
</td></tr><tr><td>DMR-EZ7K
(http://www.acephotodigital.com/sc/review-product-information.asp?id=964698305&rf=froogle&dfdate=02_27_2007)</td><td>Up convert to 1080p</td><td>250</td><td>April</td><td> </td><td>Alternate
(http://www.digitalfotoclub.com/from-froogle.asp?id=964698305)</td></tr><tr><td>DMR-EZ17K
(http://www.amazon.com/Panasonic-DMR-EZ17K-Recorder-Tuner-Black/dp/B000NWZP5U/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/102-3219723-1869761?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1174453318&sr=8-1)</td><td></td><td>200</td><td>Now</td><td>yes
(http://service.us.panasonic.com/OPERMANPDF/DMREZ17.PDF)</td><td> </td></tr><tr><td>DMR-EZ37K
(http://www.amazon.com/Panasonic-DMR-EZ37VK-Up-Converting-1080p-DVD-Recorder/dp/B000NTMGVO/ref=pd_bbs_sr_3/102-3219723-1869761?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1174712063&sr=8-3)</td><td>Up convert to 1080p</td><td>315</td><td>April
</td><td> </td><td> </td></tr><tr><TD rowspan=2>Philips
</td><TD>DVDR3505
(http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=822119)</td><td>Up converts to 720p and 1080i</td><td>200</td><td>Now</td><td>yes
(http://www.p4c.philips.com/files/d/dvdr3505_37/dvdr3505_37_dfu_aen.pdf)</td><td>Alt 1
(http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=8258146&type=product&productCategoryId=pcmcat13900050019&id=1169857637389)2
(http://www.jr.com/JRProductPage.process?Product=4157181)</td></tr><tr><td>DVDR3575H_37
(http://www.compumusic.com/p228063.htm)</td><td>160GB Hard Disc</td><td>330</td><td>May
</td><td></td><td></td></tr></table>

RCA DRC8335 VHS 250 (http://www.engadgethd.com/2007/01/09/atsc-ntsc-dvd-recorder-from-rca/) - April

Samsung AVR650 250 (http://www.samsung.com/common/microsite/exhibition/ices2007/presskit/ices2007_ce10.html) - April
Samsung AVR950 - VHS - 300 (http://www.ecost.com/ecost/shop/detail.asp?dpno=5073749) - April

Sylvania zc350sl8 - 170 (http://www.buy.com/prod/sylvania-zc350sl8-dvd-recorder-with-tuner/q/loc/111/204223240.html) - April

Toshiba D-R550 - QAM - 230 (http://www.buy.com/prod/toshiba-dvd-recorder-with-built-in-tuner/q/loc/111/204113508.html?dcaid=17379) - March - Alt 1 (http://www.amazon.com/Toshiba-D-R550-Up-Converting-Recorder-Digital/dp/B000MY38PI) Alt 2 (http://www.vanns.com/shop/servlet/item/features/484319925) 3 (http://www.etailelectronics.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=09980&Category_Code=HVDVDRecorders&Store_Code=etail)
Toshiba D-VR650 - QAM - VHS - 275 (http://www.buy.com/retail/product.asp?sku=204113510&loc=111&sp=1) - March

I put a March date on the units that were available for preorder in February.

Cross posted at HDTV reception hardware forum: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=803388

All have a DVD recorder so far.

RCA DRC8335 VHS $250 - April (http://www.engadgethd.com/2007/01/09/atsc-ntsc-dvd-recorder-from-rca/)
Panasonic $230-$380 - May (http://crave.cnet.com/8301-1_105-9675202-1.html)
LG RC797T VHS (http://http://www.hdtvexpert.com/pages_b/LGline2007.html)
Samsung DVD-AVR960 $320 - June (http://crave.cnet.com/8301-1_105-9675202-1.html)

I wish they had a HDD and component inputs :(

From the "little" picture of the Panny it looks pretty much like last years model only in black. Wonder if all the ATSC Tuner units will be in black instead of silver?

Glad to see that BLACK is making a comeback though :)

As has been mentioned by other posters, the Panasonics look like the current models with a hefty kick in price for the added ATSC tuners. If that is the price premium an ATSC tuner adds, even at this late stage of the turnover, then it is no wonder why manufacturers delay until after the dates of the FCC mandates before they put the products on the shelf.

I see nothing in any of the press releases for the Panasonics that would indicate they will record 5.1 from those tuners. They are already down-rezing HD to 480, so I would not be surprised to see them down-converting 5.1 to 2.0 as well. In other words, exactly the same recording capabilites we have now. Think about it -- this would truely make DVD recorders the "VCRs" of the digital age.

I assume these would be standard definition tuners?meaning they record downrezzed 480i HD,but if you used them as a tuner for a HD monitor,would the maximum resolution be 480?

When I think about means of recording OTA-HD I think of firewire, D-VHS, PCs and standalone HD-DVR OTA tuners. Do simple standalone tuners that downrez to 480i exist?

When I think about means of recording OTA-HD I think of firewire, D-VHS, PCs and standalone HD-DVR OTA tuners. Do simple standalone tuners that downrez to 480i exist?

Yes. All standalone ATSC tuners do this (480i is what comes out of the S-Video and composite ports on these tuners).

I assume these would be standard definition tuners?meaning they record downrezzed 480i HD,but if you used them as a tuner for a HD monitor,would the maximum resolution be 480?
One of the descriptions said they would display in full resolution either 720p or 1080i. Only down scale when recording.

One of the descriptions said they would display in full resolution either 720p or 1080i. Only down scale when recording.

This make sense. The ATSC tuner and DVD recorder are just packaged as a "unit". The ATSC tuner tunes in the OTA signal and in the case of HD..720p or 1080i would be seen on your display no different than the way your TV's ATSC tuner works. But when that signal is sent to the recorder part of the "unit" its downrezd to 480i.

that's good news,anything other than full resolution is cheating the consumer.

As has been mentioned by other posters, the Panasonics look like the current models with a hefty kick in price for the added ATSC tuners. If that is the price premium an ATSC tuner adds, even at this late stage of the turnover, then it is no wonder why manufacturers delay until after the dates of the FCC mandates before they put the products on the shelf.

I see nothing in any of the press releases for the Panasonics that would indicate they will record 5.1 from those tuners. They are already down-rezing HD to 480, so I would not be surprised to see them down-converting 5.1 to 2.0 as well. In other words, exactly the same recording capabilites we have now. Think about it -- this would truely make DVD recorders the "VCRs" of the digital age.

Especially with no HDD's!

Especially with no HDD's!What I meant by my comment was that for decades people have accepted recording with VCRs that recorded analog TV at half the horizontal/vertical broadcast resolution. Now we will have hi-def TV and a fleet of new DVDRs that will record the 1920x1080 hi-def signal at 720x480 which is actually quite a bit less than half the vertical/horizontal resolution. People will probably be very satisfied with that. That makes DVDR's the new VCR for the digital age.

In other words, exactly the same recording capabilites we have now. Think about it -- this would truely make DVD recorders the "VCRs" of the digital age.

Not true, my current DVD recorder can not tune nor record any digital channel. So, these do have capabilities that my current DVD recorder does not. Don't forget there are still plenty of people that can't afford (or refuse to) pay for TV and use OTA only. The capability to record a digital signal is a big upgrade over recording an analog OTA signal.

What I meant by my comment was that for decades people have accepted recording with VCRs that recorded analog TV at half the horizontal/vertical broadcast resolution. Now we will have hi-def TV and a fleet of new DVDRs that will record the 1920x1080 hi-def signal at 720x480 which is actually quite a bit less than half the vertical/horizontal resolution. People will probably be very satisfied with that. That makes DVDR's the new VCR for the digital age.

I got it. And you make perfect sense. I just added the HDD comment as evidence of my fustration over the lack of them in the 2007 models.

Great idea to start a summary list! Here's a couple more:

Toshiba: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=783471&highlight=CES+2007

* D-R550: ATSC, QAM, NTSC $229.99, April 2007)
* D-VR650, super-multi-format, VCR combo unit, ATSC, QAM, NTSC, ($279.99, April 2007)

Question: Do any of these DVD Recorders output HD-quality broadcast signals via component out? I'm looking for an HD ATSC/QAM tuner and find the combined ATSC tuner/DVD Recorder to be an interesting product, even if the recording abilities are only 480i.

I'm thinking this way: If I can get an all-in-one solution that allows me to watch HD live broadcasts and very good SD recordings from broadcasts on recordable media via time shift, I can dump my cable HD feed and use this box solely. I might lose a program guide built-in, but I have never found my cable co.'s guide to be all that useful (was spoiled by Tivo during my DirecTV years).

SCD

Question: Do any of these DVD Recorders output HD-quality broadcast signals via component out? I'm looking for an HD ATSC/QAM tuner and find the combined ATSC tuner/DVD Recorder to be an interesting product, even if the recording abilities are only 480i.

I'm thinking this way: If I can get an all-in-one solution that allows me to watch HD live broadcasts and very good SD recordings from broadcasts on recordable media via time shift, I can dump my cable HD feed and use this box solely. I might lose a program guide built-in, but I have never found my cable co.'s guide to be all that useful (was spoiled by Tivo during my DirecTV years).


I don't think anyone here has used one and specs are very hard to come by. So the answer to your first question is maybe.

As far as the second question, assuming the unit you buy as a QAM tuner, you will only be able to receive the unencrypted digital (which includes HD) stations. The means no HBO, ESPN, etc. It varies from area to area, but most of the time the only unencrypted digital signals are the local channels.

the difficulty may be the integration of such a device with a DVR, like Tivo or replaytv. I am not sure how you could get Tivo to control those devices - I tried with a Samsung atsc tuner and couldn't get the combo to work.

One of the descriptions said they would display in full resolution either 720p or 1080i. Only down scale when recording.
But will it record a 480i ANAMORPHIC signal, or are we stuck with letterboxing all HD content?

All the ATSC tuners that I've used allow you to choose a display format when viewing an HD signal via a 480i or 480p output: anamorphic ("squeezed"), side-cropped ("pan&scan"), or letterboxed. I hope the new recorders allow recording those same formats. But we can't really tell until we can get our hands on the recorders or their user manuals.

But we can't really tell until we can get our hands on the recorders or their user manuals.

Good idea - Samsung only posted the manual for the 157 so far on their site. Unfortunately that is a tunerless unit so you can't tell much from that. It does have an IR blaster which I didn't think many units had. I'm not sure much else can be gleaned from that manual.

When I think about means of recording OTA-HD I think of firewire, D-VHS, PCs and standalone HD-DVR OTA tuners. Do simple standalone tuners that downrez to 480i exist?

I avoided being an early adopter of HDTV because of the lack of an included hi-def tuner in all of the early sets. With that hurdle overcome (thanks to a government mandate), I'll say OTA HD is the best bargain in TV.

Unfortunately, the HDTV manufacturers have made it incredibably difficult to archive any OTA broadcasts. The means to do so are either incredibly cumbersome (PC), supported by one manufacturer (S-VHS), or have been simply deleted from entire product lines of new HDTVs (firewire, video-out ports) or completely cost-ineffective (Tivo).

I had a hard time justifying spending $5000 for an HDTV with the ability to archive OTA broadcasts (at any resolution) explicity removed.

The included hi-def tuner in the DVD recorders only restores a functionality that should have been in my $ 5000 HDTV.

Good idea - Samsung only posted the manual for the 157 so far on their site. Unfortunately that is a tunerless unit so you can't tell much from that. It does have an IR blaster which I didn't think many units had. I'm not sure much else can be gleaned from that manual.

I thought DVD-R157 had ATSC tuner built-in. Well i shouldn't have trusted pre-release specs from jr.com...
If this is true then some one should remove DVD-R157 from ATSC recorder list.

I thought DVD-R157 had ATSC tuner built-in. Well i shouldn't have trusted pre-release specs from jr.com...
If this is true then some one should remove DVD-R157 from ATSC recorder list.
They could have released that at any time since it has no tuner - it is a bit of an oddity - I'm not sure I've seen a tunerless DVDr yet. I wonder if it's just some older design from which they lifted the NTSC tuner (and firmware to record from tuner).

I'm not sure I've seen a tunerless DVDr yet.This one was mentioned around here a while back, another of those oddities:

http://shopmiracle.stores.yahoo.net/sonyvrdvc10.html

This one was mentioned around here a while back, another of those oddities:

http://shopmiracle.stores.yahoo.net/sonyvrdvc10.html
That's pretty expensive for what it does.

Seems like what Samsung did with this 157 could be done by the other makers also - just strip out the tuner and offer the "new" model at the same price as last years' model - what an idea :rolleyes:

Now I'm really curious to see if that's what happened. The law of unintended consequences - many folks assume makers will just add a digital tuner to go along with the analog one - instead the makers strip out tuners altogether.

That's pretty expensive for what it does.

Seems like what Samsung did with this 157 could be done by the other makers also - just strip out the tuner and offer the "new" model at the same price as last years' model - what an idea :rolleyes:

Now I'm really curious to see if that's what happened. The law of unintended consequences - many folks assume makers will just add a digital tuner to go along with the analog one - instead the makers strip out tuners altogether.

An ATSC tuner will only effect about 10-15% of the television viewing market. There is no QAM mandate.

I think originally there was high hope for the potential of side band multicasting. This would increase the number of OTA channels to a point where people might actually go back to an antenna for OTA reception because of the increase in programming. Unfortunately multicasting is proving to be less than attractive for broadcasters. Instead they have decided to forego multicasting and go right to broadband.

By this I mean there was a time when the powers that be thought that reruns of "Lost" for example would be available as a multicast OTA. Instead networks are now offering these reruns via broadband for a fee. The only real multicast operation right now is the NBC Weather channel. Big deal. And PBS does some. But that's it. And other plans have been abandoned - again for broadband initiatives.

Plus cable companies are only required to carry a broadcasters primary channel. Not the multicasted channels. Which means no audience for the advertisers. Until the broadcasters can deliver an audience there will be essentially no multicasting.

This has taken much of the attractiveness out of the benefits of an ATSC tuner.

I think originally there was high hope for the potential of side band multicasting. This would increase the number of OTA channels to a point where people might actually go back to an antenna for OTA reception because of the increase in programming. Unfortunately multicasting is proving to be less than attractive for broadcasters. Instead they have decided to forego multicasting and go right to broadband.

By this I mean there was a time when the powers that be thought that reruns of "Lost" for example would be available as a multicast OTA. Instead networks are now offering these reruns via broadband for a fee. The only real multicast operation right now is the NBC Weather channel. Big deal. And PBS does some. But that's it. And other plans have been abandoned - again for broadband initiatives.

You can thank the same people that required the ATSC tuner for killing mutlicasting by requiring children's TV programming on all stations, including the multicast stations (http://www.fcc.gov/parents/childrenstv.html)

In my area that meant that no more 24/7 weather channels. For someone that uses OTA only, this proved very useful in severe weather. It is a lot easier to flip on the TV in the middle of the night rather than booting up the computer, navigating to a webpage and finding the radar on that site.

An ATSC tuner will only effect about 10-15% of the television viewing market. There is no QAM mandate. I think people in this forum consistently underestimate this. Many people with cable do not use cable exclusively, i.e. a TV up in the bedroom may still have rabit ears. I believe I saw a citation once that upwards of 40% of the public receives at least some of their TV via OTA.

I think people in this forum consistently underestimate this. Many people with cable do not use cable exclusively, i.e. a TV up in the bedroom may still have rabit ears. I believe I saw a citation once that upwards of 40% of the public receives at least some of their TV via OTA.

Anybody with cable most assuredly is using analog cable with those extra televisions. One advantage of cable is that you are no longer charged by the outlet for analog. If the cable itself does not run to the television people figure out ways to get it there. Run it along the baseboard. Through the wall etc. If you have cable into the home rabbit ears no longer cut it. Except for maybe the portable television sitting on the kitchen counter. Which is probably not considered a target market for the DVD recorder manufacturers. Most numbers published by the NAB and the cable industry peg it the 10-15% range.

I even recently purchased a wireless a/v sender/receiver with an ir blaster that includes remote control access. It was $49.99 and it allows me full control over a digital cable DVR box. I have it hooked up in one of the bedrooms and it allows full access to the DVR. Analog cable wasn't enough. :)

http://www.x10.com/promotions/wireless_video_sender_vk82a.html

It works great for casual viewing. It even included the universal remote.

When cable cos start digging into consumers' pockets more with their requirement for an STB to watch the encrypted QAM chs above the locals (when analogs get shut off on cable) the use of OTA may make a come back.

Lots of anecdotal evidence suggests that most folks watch mostly their locals. When the average consumer realizes this (and the cable cos are going to be the ones making them realize) and they see the great PQ available digitally via OTA, many of them might opt for the free service. ;)

Lots of anecdotal evidence suggests that most folks watch mostly their locals. When the average consumer realizes this (and the cable cos are going to be the ones making them realize) and they see the great PQ available digitally via OTA, many of them might opt for the free service. ;)

Before I moved, I did a 2 month survey and 90% of the time I was only watching the local channels on my cable service. (10% was ESPN and non-cartoons on Saturday morning). When I moved, I never turned on the cable service, just bought an HDTV with built in ATSC tuner and put up an antenna. It has been nearly 8 months and no regrets.

The latest numbers from CES 2007 were market penetration numbers for cable and satellite, but they didn't provide any details on how many have both, or how many use OTA exclusive or in conjuction with. Since OTA is free and if the antenna is already out there, if nothing else, it serves as a backup in case the cable or satellite service is out.

Maybe the new trend would be people with laptops and digital tuner cards sitting on their roof watching OTA HD and drinking fat-free foam-free caramel macchiato lattes :-)

Maybe the new trend would be people with laptops and digital tuner cards sitting on their roof watching OTA HD and drinking fat-free foam-free caramel macchiato lattes :-)

If you are close enough to the towers, you could actually sit on your couch and wouldn't have to haul it up to the roof :p

At least in my house you can get all the locals with a properly positioned indoor antenna (20 miles from the towers)

Anybody with cable most assuredly is using analog cable with those extra televisions. One advantage of cable is that you are no longer charged by the outlet for analog. If the cable itself does not run to the television people figure out ways to get it there. Run it along the baseboard. Through the wall etc. If you have cable into the home rabbit ears no longer cut it. Except for maybe the portable television sitting on the kitchen counter. Which is probably not considered a target market for the DVD recorder manufacturers. Most numbers published by the NAB and the cable industry peg it the 10-15% range.

I even recently purchased a wireless a/v sender/receiver with an ir blaster that includes remote control access. It was $49.99 and it allows me full control over a digital cable DVR box. I have it hooked up in one of the bedrooms and it allows full access to the DVR. Analog cable wasn't enough. :)

http://www.x10.com/promotions/wireless_video_sender_vk82a.html

It works great for casual viewing. It even included the universal remote.It just seems to me that if it were only 10-15% of the population, the FCC and congress would not have gone through such hoops and delays with regards to shutting off analog. They could have done it years ago.

I'll be very interested in your opinions and satisfaction level with regards to that A/V transceiver. I've been thinking about one of those for myself. How big is it.

Here's an article that cites a 2005 report that estimated about 13.7% of U.S. TV households relied exclusively on OTA. (http://www.ce.org/Press/CEA_Pubs/1989.asp)

All I know is that I have cable and use OTA on the same set about 50/50, OTA gives a much better picture quality than cable, so when the station I want to watch is OTA that is the way I go.

I wait for the ATSC/NTSC/QAM recorder(s) with great anticipation

It just seems to me that if it were only 10-15% of the population, the FCC and congress would not have gone through such hoops and delays with regards to shutting off analog. They could have done it years ago.

I'll be very interested in your opinions and satisfaction level with regards to that A/V transceiver. I've been thinking about one of those for myself. How big is it.

The one pictured in the link is bigger than the one I wound up with. The one I got is pictured towards the bottom right of the link and is smaller. The larger one pictured looks like it also has an RF connection. Mine does not. I paid $49.99 for the smaller one and I think they had a special of free shipping when I ordered it.

It works better than I expected. But this is probably a function of range. I've got the transmitter on the first floor and the receiver on the floor right above it so the distance is not very great. The receiver is hooked up to a 25" traditional SD television. The transmitter is hooked up to a cable STB - DVR. It came with a remote which works in conjunction with the device meaning I can control the cable box by pointing the remote at the receiver - there is an RF path back to the transmitter for the remote. I can use the universal remote provided or the remote that came with the cable STB from the cable campany. All functions of the DVR are available. I can pause, FF, record, playback recorded material etc. Everything I can do downstairs I can do upstairs. The IR blaster technology is effective but I did not like the IR cable that came with it. I replaced it with one that came with a DVD recorder and it works great.

I think it would be great for extending the functions of a DVD recorder to another television in another room. Chase play for example. And you can turn everything on the first floor off from the second floor.

I really like it. But if I was trying to push it like 50ft or something there might be a range problem I haven't tested it for distance.

Maybe the new trend would be people with laptops and digital tuner cards sitting on their roof watching OTA HD and drinking fat-free foam-free caramel macchiato lattes :-)
Tall mild for me, pleeez...

Here's an article that cites a 2005 report that estimated about 13.7% of U.S. TV households relied exclusively on OTA. (http://www.ce.org/Press/CEA_Pubs/1989.asp)

Note: the article you mention is from Consumer Electronics Association (CEA) and its main members include Comcast Cable and Direct TV sattelite providers to name a few. They may be intentionally underestimating the actual number of OTA viewers. It may be in their best interest to underestimate the OTA viewers and try to leverage government regulators to do whatever they want.

If more people realized that they can get free OTA reception with outstanding HD quality (better than cable), I think more people would be ditching their cable/sattelite providers. I for one just bought one of the newest HDTV tuners on the market (Samsung DTB-H260F ATSC tuner) and have ditched Comcast cable. I get all the local channels in my area without any dropouts or fiddling with an antenna. If I were the cable company I would be worried.

Can one get History, Sci-Fi, Discovery, and all the other various cable channels with over-the-air antennas?

Until they do I don't think cable/sat companies have anything to worry about. Yes it is just fine for the casual viewer that only watches the big 3 networks and PBS but most of the cable/sat. viewers want the other channels too. That is why cable/sat. viewers subscribe and PAY for it, and have been for decades, although most of them could have been getting free analog locals channels with antenna. So, unless the cable/sat. companies decide to out-price themselves from the majority of the population I don't think most subscribers will drop them. Now, other factors may come into play in the future that may cause people to shift to OTA only, but that would be for another discussion thread.

Can one get History, Sci-Fi, Discovery, and all the other various cable channels with over-the-air antennas?

Yes, actually you can. While it is not free it actually cost $20 a month, (http://www.usdtv.com/about/) it might be worth it for those that don't watch but a few cable channels.

Are these HD? well I don't think so. Is it available everywhere? No. Can you get premium channels via an antenna? Yes.

Yes, actually you can. While it is not free it actually cost $20 a month, (http://www.usdtv.com/about/) it might be worth it for those that don't watch but a few cable channels.

Are these HD? well I don't think so. Is it available everywhere? No. Can you get premium channels via an antenna? Yes.

But you have just morphed into the pay TV model. Regardless of the delivery mechanism. Cable, satellite, broadband, OTA, strings and cups - who cares it is still pay TV.

Something like this destroys the free TV model. What I think this outfit is doing is buying the multicast bandwidth from the broadcasters and then selling content over this bandwidth. Bandwidth that was hopefully going to be used for free TV. Your free multicast bandwidth just went out the window. And you are back to a pay TV STB environment because encryption is required. No ATSC tuner required.

Free TV advocates should root for this company to fail.

edit - here's some of the fine print which was included in this press release. There's also STB rental fees, installation fees, and a 1 year commitment. This model needs to fail. It has once already:

http://www.usdtv.com/about/release-11-9-2006.html

Free TV advocates should root for this company to fail.

I am rooting for them to fail. If stations sell their bandwidth, that means they will probably throttle back the bit rate for prime time HDTV programming, which means a worse picture.

I am rooting for them to fail. If stations sell their bandwidth, that means they will probably throttle back the bit rate for prime time HDTV programming, which means a worse picture.

yeah. I just edited my last post to include a press release which explains what they are using for broadcast. It is the multicasting bandwidth.

Yes it is just fine for the casual viewer that only watches the big 3 networks and PBS but most of the cable/sat. viewers want the other channels too. That is why cable/sat. viewers subscribe and PAY for it, and have been for decades, although most of them could have been getting free analog locals channels with antenna. So, unless the cable/sat. companies decide to out-price themselves from the majority of the population I don't think most subscribers will drop them. Now, other factors may come into play in the future that may cause people to shift to OTA only, but that would be for another discussion thread.
The digital switch (along with high prices) might be the thing that pushes a number of people to dump cable.

Here in Raleigh using a SAMSUNG DTB-H260F to record to my "VCR" I am almost finding it a pleasure.

I have found additional multicast channels on PBS, PAX/ION.

For awhile The Tube was on a subchannel.

The major networks have used multicast for sports events, Rebroadcast of NASA, rebroadcast of the station down near New Orleans during the Hurricane awhile back .

ABC was using a subchannel to rebroadcast View From the Bay a sort of talk show.

Recently I have recorded some Woodwright Shop shows on a multichannel of PBS that are broadcast late evenings.

PAX/ION has been using their Multichannels for various older sitcom type shows as well as devoting one subchannel to 24/7 childrens shows.

Granted these are not HD quality but still they are alternatives and I look forward to using a ATSC DVD recorder to capture some of this stuff.

-DonB2

multicast? What's that...the only channel left in my area that does it is PBS and it's only 5 hours a day. All the other networks killed them on Jan 1, 2007 when the new children's programming rules applied to multi-cast stations.

An ATSC tuner will only effect about 10-15% of the television viewing market. There is no QAM mandate.

I think originally there was high hope for the potential of side band multicasting. This would increase the number of OTA channels to a point where people might actually go back to an antenna for OTA reception because of the increase in programming. Unfortunately multicasting is proving to be less than attractive for broadcasters. Instead they have decided to forego multicasting and go right to broadband.

By this I mean there was a time when the powers that be thought that reruns of "Lost" for example would be available as a multicast OTA. Instead networks are now offering these reruns via broadband for a fee. The only real multicast operation right now is the NBC Weather channel. Big deal. And PBS does some. But that's it. And other plans have been abandoned - again for broadband initiatives.

Plus cable companies are only required to carry a broadcasters primary channel. Not the multicasted channels. Which means no audience for the advertisers. Until the broadcasters can deliver an audience there will be essentially no multicasting.

This has taken much of the attractiveness out of the benefits of an ATSC tuner.


Can you say where you came up with this %. I have Satellite, but by far the bulk of my recording is done OTA. and most of my primetime viewing is done using HD OTA, which give the best pic quality around. And most of my recording, though not all, is done from OTA signal, transferred to DVD then watched via a dedicated upconverting DVD player.

I think folks here grossly underestimate the number of folks that still rely either in whole or part on OTA broadcasts. Though I have to admit, I tried to find a source of market info and wasnt able to track it down.

Rick

"multicast? What's that...the only channel left in my area that does it is PBS and it's only 5 hours a day. All the other networks killed them on Jan 1, 2007 when the new children's programming rules applied to multi-cast stations. "

Most all the stations that I can receive here around Raleigh have multicast channels.

I read the following post:

"You can thank the same people that required the ATSC tuner for killing mutlicasting by requiring children's TV programming on all stations, including the multicast stations "

And I did not see where it applied specifically to multicast channels.

Maybe they have different laws about this in Texas.

I am familiar with the Binghamton NY channels and they do not have many multicast subchannels either. I assumed in Binghamton is was a cost issue.

-DonB2

Multicast proportional to the market size?

Every ch except FOX/MyNetwork has multicast chs around here - and , yes, they pipe in children's programming like they're supposed to. :rolleyes:

"Multicast proportional to the market size?"

What are you saying? That it is or it isn't?

-DonB2

I don't know but it seems like it is.

All I know is it would be great if we could have our cake and eat it to.

I wish that the multicast channels did not rob bandwidth from the main HD 16x9 channel - assuming that the station is even broadcasting a 16x9 channel. But of course ther are trade offs. There are a lot of viewers out there that care nothing about digital sub channels and want every bit of the bandwidth devoted to HD.

The PAX/ION station near me appears to have chosen to only transmit about 5 digital channels and no HD channel.

Our local PBS has chosen to only broadcast an HD channel during prime time 8pm to 11pm.

The rest of the time there are just digital channels but more of them.

They did make an improvement though. Now when you channel surf thru the digital channels outside of the 8pm to 11pm slot, the HD channel shows a still image stating that HD will return between 8pm and 11pm.

This is nice because people new to ATSC are not as confused by the sub channel line up. And my Pioneer ATSC receiver no longer hangs when it gets to the HD subchannel that is off air.

-DonB2

All I know is it would be great if we could have our cake and eat it to.

I wish that the multicast channels did not rob bandwidth from the main HD 16x9 channel - assuming that the station is even broadcasting a 16x9 channel. But of course ther are trade offs. There are a lot of viewers out there that care nothing about digital sub channels and want every bit of the bandwidth devoted to HD.


This all depends on what you're watching it on and your eyes.

To my eyes, the local PBS HD ch (w/ 3 sub chs) looks just as good as FOX's HD ch w/ no sub chs (on a 30" HD Sony CRT). For someone with very critical eyes watching some 50" plasma it might be different.

"This all depends on what you're watching it on and your eyes."


I have been pretty happy with most of the digital shows that I have watched stretched.

The one that has amazed me recently is the Old Star Treks in digital stretched. Well at least on my tv being broadcast from CW or MNt - I forget which.

The colors jump out at me and the picture is very clear. It could be that the Star Trek masters were recorded on high res film vs analog magnetic tape - but I don't know for sure.

But of course the same Star Trek shows could look lousy on PAX/ION where the bandwidth is broken up.

There are a lot of variables involved.

DonB2

"multicast? What's that...the only channel left in my area that does it is PBS and it's only 5 hours a day. All the other networks killed them on Jan 1, 2007 when the new children's programming rules applied to multi-cast stations. "

I read the following post:

"You can thank the same people that required the ATSC tuner for killing mutlicasting by requiring children's TV programming on all stations, including the multicast stations "

Source: http://www.fcc.gov/cgb/consumerfacts/childtv.html
Since adopting its initial children’s programming rules, the FCC has established children’s educational and informational programming obligations for digital multicast broadcasters and placed restrictions on the increasing commercialization of children’s programming on both analog and digital broadcast and cable television systems. For digital broadcasters, effective January 1, 2007, at least three hours per week of core programming must be provided on the main programming stream. For digital broadcasters that multicast, the minimum amount of core programming will increase in proportion to the amount of free video programming offered by the broadcaster on multicast channels.

They can place all the children's programming on one of the channels as long as they follow the other guidelines mandated about time of day, amount of reruns, etc.

What is funny is that I can pick up a station in the city to the north of me (90 miles) via OTA. On their 24/7 weather channel they turn off the weather and on the children's programming on Saturday morning for 3 hours.

That could explain why the local PAX/ION station has what appears to be 24/7 of children shows on one multicast subchannel. I think it is called Cubo or something like that.

I and the better half were kinda wondering what child would be up at midnite watching educational/cartoons and it didn't make since to think the parents were recording the shows as it appeared that the cartoons were looped anyway.


It seems to me to be an overburden on the part of the goverment. What I am saying is it appears each broadcast station would have to conform to this. That makes for overkill in children educational broadcasting as far as I am concerned.

Unless of course a child can watch multiple stations simultaneously.

Five networks simultaneously broadcasting childrens education shows. Unless of course they go the "three hours per week of core programming must be provided on the main programming stream".

Also there seems to be a fine line as to a show being children educational or just a "cartoon".

Hey but what do I know???

-DonB2

Also there seems to be a fine line as to a show being children educational or just a "cartoon".

From my other readings, the qualifying programs are the ones that end up marked with an E/I logo on the screen.

"From my other readings, the qualifying programs are the ones that end up marked with an E/I logo on the screen. "

I'll look for that logo on my local PAX/ION station.

Appears to me that this is a lucrative market to be in - that of supplying childrens educational shows - seeing as it is gov mandated.

Of course I am sure it is very competitive already.

-DonB2

Around here all stations put on E/I programming for 3 hrs on Sat morning on every ch (including the weather ch .2 sub ch)

I guess I am going to have to flip on ATSC TV Saturday morning and see what they do here in Raleigh.

So how come Radio stations are not held to the same standards?

-DonB2

All I know is that I have cable and use OTA on the same set about 50/50, OTA gives a much better picture quality than cable, so when the station I want to watch is OTA that is the way I go.

I wait for the ATSC/NTSC/QAM recorder(s) with great anticipation

BINGO !!!!

The consensus at any of the forums discussing HDTV is that the best signal for your $ 5000 TV is OTA locals and not satellite (host of articles decribing how this has been dumbed down by D*) or cable.

Why waste your investment in an expensive HDTV to get an HDTV signal that has been dumbed down.

What really is a waste is all the bandwidth that D* intends to use to beam 200+ local HD channels to people because they are too lazy to hit the input button on their TV and get an even better OTA signal for their locals.

Without that commitment to provide something people can get for free now (ABC, NBC, CBS), D* could accommodate HDTV signals for all of the other channels they provide.

They are basically using multiple satellites and mucho bandwidth to bring 3-4 signals replicated 70 times instead of providing a means for every channel to be broadcast in HD.

There is no incentive for other channels to upgrade thier service to an HD signal until providers can accomodate it. Expanded inclusion of ATSC tuners would at least provide temporary abiltiy to archive OTA broadcasts (in DVD quality) until HD recorders come on line with included ATSC tunres.

Then maybe we can get rid of all those Tivo units we pay for every month.

Let's not forget there are plenty of people outside of metro areas that cannot get OTA reception. I live in northern DE close to the Pa line. Philly is our metro area and I get good OTA reception where I am. A couple miles south of me and there are enough hills etc. so that people either have cable/sat/fios or nothing.

On top of that, the stations out of Philly are broadcasting digital at minimal power and will probably continue to do so as long as they have to broadcast analog. The last time I borrowed a friends ATSC tuner and hooked it up to my antenna I was able to get ABC and PAX in digital. We probably won't get full digital OTA out in the suburbs until they shut off analog and divert the power.

Kelson,

I am pretty lucky to have as many OTA digital stations to choose from as I do here in Raleigh.

On the other hand there were not many choices in Binghamton NY where my brother lives and uses the SAMSUNG SIR T451 I gave him.

We tried getting some Syracuse stations but were not too successful and this was with a antenna with rotor on top of a two story house at 1700ft.

I think we got Fox and PBS, and 2 of the other 3 big ones. but the the third main station only comes out of Elmira and we could not receive it.

No PAX, No WB, No MNT, No UNI.

Of course things change but I doubt there will be many more stations available in Binghamton in the forseeable future.

BTW- what is the status on the goverment selling more Broadcast licenses? The last I knew they were all on hold.

DonB2

Hi Love this thread topic.

I am very lucky that even though I am about 40 miles from the broadcast towers in central Florida in Bithlo/Christmas (east of Orlando) I can get all of the available digital channels with an interior antenna (silver sensor) on top of my entertainment center in the family room. Now it took some adjusting (2-3 inches to the left or right would get NO signals at all), but am pleased with good reception for OTA for about 30 channels!

Since we pretty much watch local channels for 75% of our television watching, I am curious about the ATSC recorders ability to record in HD. From what I read above it appears that the DVD recorders wont be able to record in High Definition is that correct? If that is the case, what do they do? Record in like SDTV format and then perform some sort of upconvert? What is the quality of upconverted DVD recorded ATSC broadcast? Is it better than SDTV recorded broadcast?

Thanks for any input...

Preston

Kelson,

I am pretty lucky to have as many OTA digital stations to choose from as I do here in Raleigh.

On the other hand there were not many choices in Binghamton NY where my brother lives and uses the SAMSUNG SIR T451 I gave him.

We tried getting some Syracuse stations but were not too successful and this was with a antenna with rotor on top of a two story house at 1700ft.

I think we got Fox and PBS, and 2 of the other 3 big ones. but the the third main station only comes out of Elmira and we could not receive it.

No PAX, No WB, No MNT, No UNI.


The mtn is probably focusing on regional availability since the mtn had trouble securing deals with the cable providers in the areas of the mountain west conference, so that's probably why they chose this alternative. This happens when cable providers also become content providers :-(

From what I read above it appears that the DVD recorders wont be able to record in High Definition is that correct? If that is the case, what do they do? Record in like SDTV format and then perform some sort of upconvert? What is the quality of upconverted DVD recorded ATSC broadcast? Is it better than SDTV recorded broadcast?The best you could hope for from a DVD recorder is that it would downconvert an HD signal to DVD quality (which is better than analogue NTSC quality) for recording on DVD, then upconvert it for playback. The results could potentially look as good as an upconverted commercial DVD. But that's the best possible scenario, reality probably wouldn't be as kind.

If the DVD recorder has a hard drive, then ideally it would be able to record the HD digital signal directly to the hard drive and be able to play it back directly as well, resulting in full HD resolution. It would only downconvert if recording to a DVD. But again, I don't think you're likely to see this on the first generation or two of ATSC-equipped recorders.

If you want to record full HD quality to optical discs you'll have to wait for an HD-DVD or Bluray recorder, which will be considerably more expensive both for the hardware and for the media.

If you want to record full HD quality to optical discs you'll have to wait for an HD-DVD or Bluray recorder, which will be considerably more expensive both for the hardware and for the media. or you can use computer based recording.

or you can use computer based recording.

Which also means it will be considerably more expensive.

or you can use computer based recording.
Considering the cost of a HTPC setup a Tivo S3 is also a possibility.

But realistically, for the short term the best option is to just get a cable co solution for HD recordings.

Well, the product discription says record ATSC at 480p, flame me again, but I can hope.

Well, the product discription says record ATSC at 480p, flame me again, but I can hope.

Let's assume it does.

What will this mean for folks with SD televisions? And those with DVD recorders that are hooked up to an SD television. What about playback on other DVD players?

Think about it. Hope? My guess is that the recording will be at 480i. But it is only a guess.

I would say that disk could only be played on that particular player. Better upconversion, and SD moved to the AV/S-Vid like the set top boxes. Win/lose.

I would say that disk could only be played on that particular player. Better upconversion, and SD moved to the AV/S-Vid like the set top boxes. Win/lose.

Great points.

I just wish there was some evidence to support them. So far the conjecture is that the 480p notation was a typo. I buy the typo argument based on the realities of the current state of imbedded hardware - SD.

Hopefully I'm wrong. But using the square peg round hole analogy this makes the most sense.

I know off the cuff it's 480i. Yes ,either misinformation or misinterpretation-but my eyes aren't that bad - yet. Thanks. But I know there should/must be a way...

I know off the cuff it's 480i. Yes ,either misinformation or misinterpretation-but my eyes aren't that bad - yet. Thanks. But I know there should/must be a way...

It will happen eventually. Years though. Not weeks.

Multicast proportional to the market size?

Every ch except FOX/MyNetwork has multicast chs around here - and , yes, they pipe in children's programming like they're supposed to. :rolleyes:

Of course. Free TV is supported by advertisers. If there are fewer viewers there is less incentive to advertise - which will effect broadcast content.

Originally Posted by biker19
Multicast proportional to the market size?

Every ch except FOX/MyNetwork has multicast chs around here - and , yes, they pipe in children's programming like they're supposed to.

Of course. Free TV is supported by advertisers. If there are fewer viewers there is less incentive to advertise - which will effect broadcast content.

In general yes, but you can't say that it applies to every market.

My market area about 1.5 million people...number of stations multicasting = 1
Market area to my north (can pick up these channels sometimes, too) about 250,000 people....number of stations multicasting = 4 (2 of them having 2 sub-channels)

Here's something I'm wondering... will the first generation of atsc dvd recorders be capable of timeshifting? I'm guessing no, since they aren't able to record in HD to the dvd disc. I'm guessing any timeshifting feature you can have with a dvd rw would be disabled when watching hd...of course it could timeshift a downconverted version which would be obvious when you rewound it....then when you went back to live time you'd get your hd back....weird. Eh I bet the first generation won't even have the feature at all......

Here's something I'm wondering... will the first generation of atsc dvd recorders be capable of timeshifting? I'm guessing no, since they aren't able to record in HD to the dvd disc. I'm guessing any timeshifting feature you can have with a dvd rw would be disabled when watching hd...of course it could timeshift a downconverted version which would be obvious when you rewound it....then when you went back to live time you'd get your hd back....weird. Eh I bet the first generation won't even have the feature at all......
I think chase play would be a better description - and I think that's possible with some current DVD RAM (I don't know about RW) units. I assume that will still be the case with ATSC tuner units. The output has to be 480i when in this mode, but you do bring up a good point in that when using just the tuner in live mode the output could be HD.

Some Pioneer models support chase play on -RW disks (even on units without hard drives). My older 210S unit does.

I think chase play would be a better description - and I think that's possible with some current DVD RAM (I don't know about RW) units. I assume that will still be the case with ATSC tuner units. The output has to be 480i when in this mode, but you do bring up a good point in that when using just the tuner in live mode the output could be HD.

How's that going to look on a SD television?

How's that going to look on a SD television?

HD downconverted signal on an SD TV rivals (if not better than) digital cable. I have an older HDTV Tuner / DVD player hooked up in my bedroom to a $75 20" TV and the picture looks great. Not HD, but using an antenna beats the heck out of an analog cable picture.

In general yes, but you can't say that it applies to every market.

My market area about 1.5 million people...number of stations multicasting = 1
Market area to my north (can pick up these channels sometimes, too) about 250,000 people....number of stations multicasting = 4 (2 of them having 2 sub-channels)

I think this probaby depends on the local affiliates and what priorities they have within. But other than PBS, I don't think anyone else is repeating their primetime non-news shows via multicasting, which could act as a limited-feature DVR-free DVR! They are probably worried they will eat away from their ratings numbers since either Nielsen doesn't count or advertisers don't look at them the same way as they do first airings. I've seen ABC show summary recaps of some of its shows, but never a repeat of a just aired episode

Here in Raleigh using a SAMSUNG DTB-H260F to record to my "VCR" I am almost finding it a pleasure.


-DonB2

Don... Are you actually using a VCR? :D Yesterday I picked up an RCA DVD recorder with hard drive. I record from my Samsung H260 STB via s-video. The quality of the recording is very good, and price was under two hundred. I was planning to build a HTPC to record in HD, but after trying this DVD recorder, I see no reason to try and record in HD. With the hard drive, you can always record in the one hour / best quality mode because you don't have to worry about running out of disc space. For the same reason, you can start the recordings 5 or 10 minutes early and end them 10 minutes after the show should end to make sure nothing is missed.

kbgl ,

Yuppph! I am using a stone age steam powerd RCA VCR!!!!

I use it for recording shows that are on the multicast subchannels that are not available with NTSC.

I received a COBY DVD recorder for my Birthday and had so many failed time recording that I gave it the boot.

Granted COBY is not a big name. I just hope that name brands do a better job of rcording than the $100.00 and under do.

It got to the point where I could not find a Blank DVD that the Coby would accept in time record mode without giving me a No DVD in drive error.

I have read of these issues with $200.00 Samsung DVD-R145 DVD Recorder also.

Also same issue with another $100.00 unit.

I am more or less waiting to purchase a ATSC tuner DVD recorder.

-DonB2

kbgl ,

Yuppph! I am using a stone age steam powerd RCA VCR!!!!

I use it for recording shows that are on the multicast subchannels that are not available with NTSC.

I received a COBY DVD recorder for my Birthday and had so many failed time recording that I gave it the boot.

Granted COBY is not a big name. I just hope that name brands do a better job of rcording than the $100.00 and under do.

It got to the point where I could not find a Blank DVD that the Coby would accept in time record mode without giving me a No DVD in drive error.

I have read of these issues with $200.00 Samsung DVD-R145 DVD Recorder also.

Also same issue with another $100.00 unit.

I am more or less waiting to purchase a ATSC tuner DVD recorder.

-DonB2

I was too, but I really wanted to have a hard drive unit so that I wouldn't have to go look for a blank disc, or hunt through 20 discs to find a show to watch. Everything is on the hard drive now. When it appeared the new ATSC recorders would not include a hard drive, I decided to try this new dvd recorder with hard drive. Yesterday, a friend of mine mistook a recording of an SD show for HD. An SD 4:3 show stretched to 16:9, and it still looked great.

kbgl,

What model of RCA is this? I read another post somewhere and the poster said they got their RCA at least I think it was RCA at Walmart. But I don't think it had hard Drive. Sure is a pain. I want to get lazy and just say "HD" for hard drive but that will be confused with High Definition.

Anyway does your RCA have component in/out? Of course I realise this would require some kind of up/down convert.

Also does your RCA do instant record and does it support all DVD media?

-DonB2

kbgl,

What model of RCA is this? I read another post somewhere and the poster said they got their RCA at least I think it was RCA at Walmart. But I don't think it had hard Drive. Sure is a pain. I want to get lazy and just say "HD" for hard drive but that will be confused with High Definition.

Anyway does your RCA have component in/out? Of course I realise this would require some kind of up/down convert.

Also does your RCA do instant record and does it support all DVD media?

-DonB2
All the details you'd want to know are in this thread: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=767130

Biker19,

Thanks.

Don

. . . and ill-informed speculation it would be, since no one has one of these boxes in hand. But what's your guess about which of the announced ATSC DVD recorders would have the best tuner sensitivity for picking up distant stations?

I would guess they all will have at least a 5th gen tuner (maybe some lower tier makers might use some leftover 4th gen ones) so OTA tuning should be good on all of them. Samsung seems to use some good stuff so it might even use a 6th gen tuner.

There's a new model listed now on the Philips web site. It is still vague, but sounds disapointing - the specifications say that it will include and SDTV tuner for digital TV broadcasts, whatever that means, sounds to me like tuning the digital channels and outputting them in standard definition. Here's the link:

http://www.consumer.philips.com/consumer/catalog/tree/en/us/consumer/HOME_ENTERTAINMENT_GR_US_CONSUMER/DVD_HOME_THEATER_CA_US_CONSUMER/ce/_productId_DVDR3505_37_US_CONSUMER/DVD_Player_Recorder+DVDR3505_37?proxybuster=PK5M3UWHHZWFPJ0R MRCSHQVHKFSESI5P

There's a new model listed now on the Philips web site. It is still vague, but sounds disapointing - the specifications say that it will include and SDTV tuner for digital TV broadcasts, whatever that means, sounds to me like tuning the digital channels and outputting them in standard definition. Here's the link:

http://www.consumer.philips.com/consumer/catalog/tree/en/us/consumer/HOME_ENTERTAINMENT_GR_US_CONSUMER/DVD_HOME_THEATER_CA_US_CONSUMER/ce/_productId_DVDR3505_37_US_CONSUMER/DVD_Player_Recorder+DVDR3505_37?proxybuster=PK5M3UWHHZWFPJ0R MRCSHQVHKFSESI5P

It says it has a digital coax out (I wonder if they mean audio?). The specs really stink on this....hard to read and understand (especially the inputs/outputs)

It says it has a digital coax out (I wonder if they mean audio?). The specs really stink on this....hard to read and understand (especially the inputs/outputs)

Yes that would be audio.

I believe this is how they all will be. ATSC/NTSC tuners with the addition of QAM on some models/brands. Digital signal coming into the tuner down converted to SD. And then those with HDMI will upconvert the down converted SD signal. Those without HDMI will handle things they way they do today - 480i/480p via analog outputs.

The ATSC tuner should pass through like the NTSC ones do today.

That would be pretty disappointing if it couldn't be used as an HD tuner.

That would be pretty disappointing if it couldn't be used as an HD tuner.

I hope I am wrong.

I hope I am wrong.

I hope you are wrong, too....if not I will go buy up all the Sony HD DVR's at Fry's and resell them for a nice profit :D

I hope you are wrong, too....if not I will go buy up all the Sony HD DVR's at Fry's and resell them for a nice profit :D

The fly in the ointment with DVD recorders is the requirement to down convert to SD because of the recording to disc. It has to be SD. I don't believe, based on what I have read, that there will be an HD path and an SD path. Not for 200 or 300 bucks. It looks like it will be an SD path.

Eliminate the requirement to burn to a 4.7GB disc and you get your Sony. Well actually you get the DVR's that are so popular in North America. TIVO? Cableco?

Read what the manufacturers are saying. It's all there.

There's a new model listed now on the Philips web site. It is still vague, but sounds disapointing - the specifications say that it will include and SDTV tuner for digital TV broadcasts, whatever that means, sounds to me like tuning the digital channels and outputting them in standard definition. Here's the link:

http://www.consumer.philips.com/consumer/catalog/tree/en/us/consumer/HOME_ENTERTAINMENT_GR_US_CONSUMER/DVD_HOME_THEATER_CA_US_CONSUMER/ce/_productId_DVDR3505_37_US_CONSUMER/DVD_Player_Recorder+DVDR3505_37?proxybuster=PK5M3UWHHZWFPJ0R MRCSHQVHKFSESI5P

Well, the Dolby Digital Recording logo answers the question many here have had regarding whether or not the new recorders will be able to record the original 5.1 audio along with the downconverted video. :)

Well, the Dolby Digital Recording logo answers the question many here have had regarding whether or not the new recorders will be able to record the original 5.1 audio along with the downconverted video. :)


How does it answer it? Every current model has the DD logo, but with a little footnote that reads: 2.0. I can't really see that small on the Philips picture.

Well, the Dolby Digital Recording logo answers the question many here have had regarding whether or not the new recorders will be able to record the original 5.1 audio along with the downconverted video. :)
There are no 5.1 connections on the unit, and the specs state only analog L/R and digital coaxial. Must be DD 2.0, the usual one for our recorders.

I'm not talking about inputing DD sound from an external source. I'm talking about recording it from the internal digital tuner.

Well actually you get the DVR's that are so popular in North America. TIVO? Cableco?

Exactly, the whole problem is people willing to give the cable companies and TiVo money unnecessarily. Since I don't have cable service and I refuse to pay $800 + $17 a month to record 2 shows a week, I'm stuck with using a discontinued product. I am glad I got two of them (for $300 total).

It just amazes me that the cable companies charge $10/month to rent an HD DVR, don't people realize if we demanded a product that could record HD to a hard drive and then downconvert to burn to DVD that we could save some money? Mass production would have these under $400 easy...pays for itself in about 3 years and you get more features and the ability to archive.

I guess for now, we can only wait until the HD Camcorders become more popular and people want a way to archive lossless without the use of a PC. Maybe that will spur the making of an HD DVDR

Those of us that have digital cable would like to be able to record any channel we get to disk, including encrypted digital. Without that capability, we get crap analog and a handful of unencrypted digitals.

Will there be a DVD recorder WITH QAM and CABLECARD ????? Don't want TIVO.

Those of us that have digital cable would like to be able to record any channel we get to disk, including encrypted digital. Without that capability, we get crap analog and a handful of unencrypted digitals.

Will there be a DVD recorder WITH QAM and CABLECARD ????? Don't want TIVO.
See this post for a couple of units with QAM. (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9747373&&#post9747373)

The fly in the ointment with DVD recorders is the requirement to down convert to SD because of the recording to disc. It has to be SD. I don't believe, based on what I have read, that there will be an HD path and an SD path. Not for 200 or 300 bucks. It looks like it will be an SD path.


But the HD path is already there, it's already on the chip - all they have to do is make it available at the back of the unit.

Maybe that's why the HDD units are being delayed - those will have two paths including HD to the HDD.

wabjxo - thanks, but QAM is not enough. QAM does not automatically mean CableCARD.
Most digitals are encrypted, so the dvd recorder must have cablecard.

Any dvd recorders coming WITH CABLECARD ??
If not, then this is a step backwards.
At least the old VCR's could deal with analog cable.

But the HD path is already there, it's already on the chip - all they have to do is make it available at the back of the unit.

Maybe that's why the HDD units are being delayed - those will have two paths including HD to the HDD.

Maybe. But for the ones already announced I think the ATSC/NTSC tuner will downconvert anything HD to SD at the tuner level. Everything going into the mainboard will be SD. Just a guess. Philips is already using the term SDTV Digital Tuner with its new 2007 model.

wabjxo - thanks, but QAM is not enough. QAM does not automatically mean CableCARD.
Most digitals are encrypted, so the dvd recorder must have cablecard.

Any dvd recorders coming WITH CABLECARD ??
If not, then this is a step backwards.
At least the old VCR's could deal with analog cable.
DVDrs can handle analog as well. It's the cable cos that are encrypting the signal. After (7/1) the cable cos are forced to relinquish the STB monopoly they've had some units with CC may become available but I highly doubt it.

After (7/1) the cable cos are forced to relinquish the STB monopoly they've had some units with CC may become available but I highly doubt it.Can you expand on this please. I'm not aware of what happens on 7/1. What and by who? Thanks

Well I was hoping to be able to record to DVD from 480i digital channels, analog will be gone from cable soon. Why this would not be a priority with manufacturers I have no clue. That severely limits the usefulness of DVD recorders IMO. And you cannot do it without unencrypting the channel.

Well I was hoping to be able to record to DVD from 480i digital channels, analog will be gone from cable soon. Why this would not be a priority with manufacturers I have no clue. That severely limits the usefulness of DVD recorders IMO. And you cannot do it without unencrypting the channel.

My theory...and only a theory...is that when analog cable is completely gone, the cable companies will have a "standard digital" package that is unencrypted (similar to the standard analog packages today). Today, very few digital channels are unencrypted. So a digital cable ready TV (QAM) will be the standard. I make sure that all the devices I buy today have a QAM tuner even though I don't currently have cable. So, before I upgrade my DVD recorder, I will make sure the new unit has a QAM tuner.

With all the thieves out there, I would bet the cable companies would encrypt every single channel forever save the locals. Cable is in fact getting awfully expensive around here, about 80/month for a basic digital lineup without premiums. I'm really beginning to wonder if it is worth it.

So, unless we get a recorder with CableCARD, we'll be forced to rent some POC from the cable companies.

With all the thieves out there, I would bet the cable companies would encrypt every single channel forever save the locals. Cable is in fact getting awfully expensive around here, about 80/month for a basic digital lineup without premiums. I'm really beginning to wonder if it is worth it.

So, unless we get a recorder with CableCARD, we'll be forced to rent some POC from the cable companies.

I'm confused. Are you concerned about the cost of the STB rental or the cost of the content? ESPN will never be free. Even with a cable card.

If you purchase your own STB you'll have to acquire the cable card from the cable company - in addition to purchasing content. Content will probably cost you $70 per month instead of the $80 per month you spend now (which includes content and your STB rental).

So you'll be spending $70 per month instead of $80 per month but you'll have the added cost of purchasing your own STB - at probably $300 - $400. And the maintenance is on you.

Content is never going to be free. Unless it is the OTA broadcast channels. Which are underwritten by the advertisers.

Cable is in fact getting awfully expensive around here, about 80/month for a basic digital lineup without premiums. I'm really beginning to wonder if it is worth it.Maybe you should check into DBS. Depending on what your requirements are, it could be a better deal for you.

I just threw the cost issue in as an aside.

The basic issue again is the lack of ability to record onto DVD a digital channel other than locals. We are not talking about HD, just SD. I have CableCARD on the TV's, I do not currently rent a Cable STB, nor do I wish to ever do so. I do not want hard drive recording on the cable company STB. I do not want Tivo. I want DVD recording. Seems like a pretty basic feature, yet where is it?

In the days of tape recording, we could record analog cable directly. Now that we have DVD recording, why should we not expect to be able to record digital cable directly?

Is DBS doing 1920x1080 these days, or are they still doing that HD lite crap?

The basic issue again is the lack of ability to record onto DVD a digital channel other than locals. We are not talking about HD, just SD. I have CableCARD on the TV's, I do not currently rent a Cable STB, nor do I wish to ever do so. I do not want hard drive recording on the cable company STB. I do not want Tivo. I want DVD recording. Seems like a pretty basic feature, yet where is it?

In the days of tape recording, we could record analog cable directly. Now that we have DVD recording, why should we not expect to be able to record digital cable directly?The advent of digital transmission is a financial boon for the cable co's. With this new technology they get to correct all the mistakes to their analog business model to maximize their profits. They are not likely to give this up. By encrypting all but the local channels (which I'm sure they would if they were allowed to) they force you to rent an STB for every device you want to hook up to their service. So in addition to charging you a premium for "upgrading" to digital service they now can charge you a monthly fee on a per device basis. As long as their cap cost for the stb's is low enough to be recovered in a reasonable amount of time, they are unlikely to relinquish this new revenue stream.

I recently read a technical FAQ on FIOS TV design that provided some surprising cable tidbits. If I can find it again I'll post the link, but in summary:
Cable systems in metro areas operate on 750-850 MHz bandwidth.
That bandwidth is shared amongst all their services, TV, VOIP, VOD, Internet service.
An analog broadcast channel takes up 6 MHz of bandwidth.
Using digital transmission, a cable co can fit 6-8 SD or 2-3 HD channels in full quality in that 6 MHz.

Anyone who thinks the cable co's are not going to get out of analog transmission as soon as possible is deluding themselves. They will do it in a way and timeframe that they believe maximizes their profits.

This maybe slight off topic...

I have been in a couple of local Wally Mega-Lo marts this week. The shelves of recorders both tape and DVD are practically empty. Even the overhead shelves where they place the overstock are completely empty.

Wil the ATSC units really show up 3/1?

Can you expand on this please. I'm not aware of what happens on 7/1. What and by who? Thanks
The cable cos are supposed to relinquish the monopoly on STBs. Form what I've read they got another reprieve to 7/1/07. So after 7/1 anyone is supposed to be able to buy their own STB (with the right technical specs) and the cable co must authorize it.

This maybe slight off topic...

I have been in a couple of local Wally Mega-Lo marts this week. The shelves of recorders both tape and DVD are practically empty. Even the overhead shelves where they place the overstock are completely empty.

Wil the ATSC units really show up 3/1?
I've being scouting my Walmart almost daily for a couple of months to see if there's a change coming for 3/1. The only obvious thing I saw was a space on the shelves between ATSC equipped TVs and the analog ones (25" and above and 24" and below). No changes in the DVD/VCR aisles other than a general up/down of stock levels. Around the holidays this store did line up a bunch of analog tuner TVs in the aisles - as if to get rid of them. I have no idea what they have in the back rooms. A huge pile of SV2000 DVDrs seemed to have disappeared but the original stack of 10 RCA 5030 DVDrs w/ HDD is only down to 8. I'm sure as a chain they (and other stores) have some sort of policy on how to handle the transition but the details of each store might be quite different.

One way to tell if something is coming would be to somehow get into their computer system to see if any are in the pipeline.

My theory...and only a theory...is that when analog cable is completely gone, the cable companies will have a "standard digital" package that is unencrypted (similar to the standard analog packages today). Today, very few digital channels are unencrypted. So a digital cable ready TV (QAM) will be the standard. I make sure that all the devices I buy today have a QAM tuner even though I don't currently have cable. So, before I upgrade my DVD recorder, I will make sure the new unit has a QAM tuner.
It's a good idea to have all TV equipment with a QAM tuner but I'm pretty sure the cable cos will use the FIOS model in terms of clear QAM ch availability - locals only. So, yes, there will be a "standard" or "basic" package available - but it won't include anything above the locals.

At least that will be the plan - in reality a few other chs will probably be in the clear - such as the neighbor's VOD/PPV. ;)

It's a good idea to have all TV equipment with a QAM tuner but I'm pretty sure the cable cos will use the FIOS model in terms of clear QAM ch availability - locals only. So, yes, there will be a "standard" or "basic" package available - but it won't include anything above the locals.

At least that will be the plan - in reality a few other chs will probably be in the clear - such as the neighbor's VOD/PPV. ;)

If that really is what happens, the cable company (and satellite) won't see my money again. I hate having an extra box sitting by the TV. So, right now, and I guess in the foreseeable future, I will not have cable service. I guess if the TV makers decide to "build in" a cable box to new TV's, that might get my attention when I upgrade in 10-15 years (just bought a new HD Plasma last week)

The cable cos are supposed to relinquish the monopoly on STBs. Form what I've read they got another reprieve to 7/1/07. So after 7/1 anyone is supposed to be able to buy their own STB (with the right technical specs) and the cable co must authorize it.

Close. What is happening in July is that all new equipment (STB's) a cableco introduces into the system must be controlled at the encryption level by a cable card. This process can no longer happen in a closed environment like it is done with current cableco STB's. But this is only for new equipment. Existing STB's can continue to operate and be redeployed.

I don't quite get the purpose of the ruling in today's environment. Back when it was passed there were hopes that companies would emerge and a market would be created for consumer purchased STB's. But when facing the choice of of renting a box for $10 per month or purchasing a $400 box the consumer has chosen the rental model. No companies have emerged and this July date has become a non event for consumers - except for making it more costly for cablecos to deploy boxes. The cost of a cable card featured box is more.

Also both Scientific Atlanta and Motorola - the two major suppliers of cable STB's have barely begun gearing up for the production of the new STB's. Which could become a problem come July. Pace has announced a box that consumers can purchase but it is essentially a clone of what is out there now. So why buy if you can rent. Scientific Atlanta and Motorola have announced no plans to sell direct to consumers. And it is anticipated they will not.

Cable cards have been around for a while. The ruling just limits the cablecos in how they purchase and deploy their new STB's. My television accepts a cable card and would allow me to bypass the STB if I choose. I still would have to pay for content and would have no DVR functionality.

So what has the ruling created as a result of no consumer products being manufactured? Basically a mess. Cablecos have to make cable cards available for STB's they own. Which adds cost. And this extra cost has to be calculated when considering the cost of converting analog customers to digital - which is currently 60% of a typical cable company's embedded base. Thus lengthening the timeline required.

Cable cards have been available for devices that are designed to use them - a television for example. The July date doesn't mean that cable cards will magically appear. Again - they have been around for a while.

All this to avoid a $10 per month box rental fee? When the preferred method of acquisition by the consumer is the rental model. Gov't at work I guess. Maybe it was a nice idea at the time.

As I understand it, right now the FCC and cable companies are in a tussle over "opening up" the access-control mechanism for premium channels. The FCC wants to enable consumers to buy third-party devices that can access those channels (that is, something other than the cable companies' own STBs and DVRs), and their current deadline for this is July 1 this year. The cable companies want to overturn this, or at least push this back so they can develop a secure architecture for downloading access controls into such devices. It sounds to me like this is what CableCard was supposed to do, but it's not working out.

Maybe this is the reason why equipment manufacturers are holding off on introducing new devices with ATSC/QAM tuners except as absolutely necessary for the moment. They're waiting to see how the cable access-control issue shakes out.

[added...] Aha, nextoo beat me to it while I was typing this. A big problem with current CableCards is that you can't use interactive services like the cableco's program guide, or on-demand content. There was supposed to be a CableCard 2.0 that solves this problem, but I haven't heard anything about it lately.

I agree that most cable customers would probably still prefer to rent a STB or DVR from their cableco. However, it seems to me that at least some people would be willing to pay up front for third-party DVRs with improved capabilities like bigger hard disks or built-in DVD or HD-DVD or Blu-ray burners, provided that they can still access all the channels and services that they want to subscribe to.

It would at least make the niche for third-party DVRs and DVD/HDDs bigger than just the OTA-only people like me, and the cable customers who are interested in just the unencrypted local channels.

jtbell - yes I agree. And the July date means that a fully functioning cable card has to be available if the cablecos want to deploy new fully interactive boxes. But this has been known for a while. And although it may seem like news to us in this forum environment it is not news to the companies that would have been gearing up to produce consumer retail devices. They have known for a while.

The announcements last fall about how there were no plans to produce a HD DVD recorder for the North American market was ominous in my mind. It was like the manufacturers conceded that the rental model was the preferred model. And that they saw no market for their products. At least at the mass market level.

I'm sure there will be niche products that will emerge. But be prepared to bring your wallet.

jtbell - yes I agree. And the July date means that a fully functioning cable card has to be available if the cablecos want to deploy new fully interactive boxes. But this has been known for a while. And although it may seem like news to us in this forum environment it is not news to the companies that would have been gearing up to produce consumer retail devices. They have known for a while.

Actually this statement may not be correct. Not sure. I pretty much learn as I go along. The cable card will provide the authentication right? Will the interactive features be a function of the box? Again not sure.

All this talk about built-in digital tuners is very interesting, but if you cannot receive an OTA digital signal and your cable company's signal is scrambled (even broadcast HD), built-in ATSC/Qam tuner is useless.

I have a Panasonic 37px60u and can't get ANY digital signal, it needs a STB.

I have a Pioneer 5070 with a CableCARD, no STB. The Pio outputs composite video for TVGOS VCR/DVDR recording which is why I just ordered a Pioneer 640 DVDR yesterday to replace a S-VHS VCR.

After reading through this thread, I have no regrets ordering the Pio 640 because an ATSC tuner is useless to me (even if it worked, downresing to 480i makes it SD anyway instead of HD), plus I will have the advantage of having an HDD.

If a DVDR/DVR could tune in all of my cable channels and record in Hi-Def then THAT would be something I'd buy, but that doesn't seem likely in the near future.

Rick

jtbell - yes I agree. And the July date means that a fully functioning cable card has to be available if the cablecos want to deploy new fully interactive boxes. But this has been known for a while. And although it may seem like news to us in this forum environment it is not news to the companies that would have been gearing up to produce consumer retail devices. They have known for a while. Nextoo, let me see if I have this right. The cable card will plug into the device to handle the decryption of the signal. The encryption used (keys or whatever) is not universal but implemented by each cable co to their own specs. So, even if you buy an STB from a third party, you have to get the cable card from your cable co, just as you would have to do for a cable-card-ready TV -- right?

What exactly is a cable card. Is it a circuit board that plugs in or is it a programable key-card that goes into a reader on the device (like what DirecTV uses). Does the cable co's just give these away, or do they charge a monthly fee for them. Are you just trading one type of rental for another while adding your own up-front cost?

Nextoo, let me see if I have this right. The cable card will plug into the device to handle the decryption of the signal. The encryption used (keys or whatever) is not universal but implemented by each cable co to their own specs. So, even if you buy an STB from a third party, you have to get the cable card from your cable co, just as you would have to do for a cable-card-ready TV -- right?

What exactly is a cable card. Is it a circuit board that plugs in or is it a programable key-card that goes into a reader on the device (like what DirecTV uses). Does the cable co's just give these away, or do they charge a monthly fee for them. Are you just trading one type of rental for another while adding your own up-front cost?

The cable card is similar to a pcmcia card that slides into a slot on the device. My television has a cable card slot. Yes the cable company supplies the cable card and they are rented just like an STB is rented. And of course there are the normal charges for content.

In my opinion you are trading one recurring charge for another. It is just a different form factor. But the advantage may be that the consumer purchased device offers more features than the cable company provided STB. Nice but not cheap. I don't plan on being first in line.

Wikipedia - CableCards

http://www.audioholics.com/techtips/specsformats/CableCARDprimer.php

I'm confused about something. If it is covered here let me know because I think I missed it the first time around.

From what I gather you need a digital tuner to get OTA broadcasts. You would need a QAM tuner to get digital broadcasts right?

But what about standard basic cable signals that a normal NTSC tuner can pick up? If I plug in a basic cable line into the back of a DVD recorder/VCR it scans from 1 to say 125 and finds all basic cable shows. Now if I get a recorder with no QAM or NTSC but only a digital turner and plug in that same basic cable line. Will it still scan and get the basic cable signal or will I just get blue screen as basic cable is analog signal and the new recorder is only digital tuner or will I be able to get my basic NTSC cable stations just like before? Also, what happens when everything goes digital? Will I loose basic cable stations and then the digital tuner works or do I need QAM? Is digital tuner ONLY good for over the air stations?

I'm sure that's been covered but I might have missed it. If this is covered in this topic maybe someone can tell me what page number it is?

But what about standard basic cable signals that a normal NTSC tuner can pick up? If I plug in a basic cable line into the back of a DVD recorder/VCR it scans from 1 to say 125 and finds all basic cable shows. Now if I get a recorder with no QAM or NTSC but only a digital turner and plug in that same basic cable line. Will it still scan and get the basic cable signal or will I just get blue screen as basic cable is analog signal and the new recorder is only digital tuner or will I be able to get my basic NTSC cable stations just like before? Also, what happens when everything goes digital? Will I loose basic cable stations and then the digital tuner works or do I need QAM? Is digital tuner ONLY good for over the air stations?

For todays standard OTA and analog cable the NTSC tuner in your recorder will suffice, however for the cable digital channels that needs a QAM tuner.

For OTA - In the future when all OTA stations go digital only, you will need a tuner that can decode ATSC signals.

For cable - Until cable makes a change in it's modulation type the present NTSC and QAM tuners will continue to work, when and if cable goes all digital the Qam tuner will work.

Just remember the OTA transition has nothing to do with cable!!

I'm confused about something. If it is covered here let me know because I think I missed it the first time around.

From what I gather you need a digital tuner to get OTA broadcasts. You would need a QAM tuner to get digital broadcasts right?

But what about standard basic cable signals that a normal NTSC tuner can pick up? If I plug in a basic cable line into the back of a DVD recorder/VCR it scans from 1 to say 125 and finds all basic cable shows. Now if I get a recorder with no QAM or NTSC but only a digital turner and plug in that same basic cable line. Will it still scan and get the basic cable signal or will I just get blue screen as basic cable is analog signal and the new recorder is only digital tuner or will I be able to get my basic NTSC cable stations just like before? Also, what happens when everything goes digital? Will I loose basic cable stations and then the digital tuner works or do I need QAM? Is digital tuner ONLY good for over the air stations?

I'm sure that's been covered but I might have missed it. If this is covered in this topic maybe someone can tell me what page number it is?



All currently announced DVD recorders, as well as TVs with built in ATSC tuners have a regular NTSC tuner as well, so tunning in basic cable channels shouldn't be a problem. How long the cable companies are going to continue providing basic cable I believe is unclear.

ATSC tuners are only good for over the air channels. QAM tuners suppoedly should tune digital cable, but only non-scrambled channels. It looks like we've yet to see any DVD recorders with a cable card slot to be able to receive full digital cable (after you pay for it focourse).

I guess companies just wants us to have 100s of boxes stacked in our entertainment centers. I don't even mind the box so much as I do the insane mess of cables and wires that every additional box creates.

To me what's worse is that they get so greedy that you have to buy new boxes pretty much every year, and no new standard (by my count since the component video), ever gets fully implemented. DVI, HDMI, now we're on who knows which version of HDMI, but it seems like even if you buy the latest and greatest, always labeled "future proof", you never even get to use it.

I don't have the extra cash just lying around to throw on new boxes, and for now I am sticking with good ole component, until the whole HDMI BS gets resolved.

So, when you see a recorder's write up on the net and it says has ATSC tuner but doesn't say anything else like NTSC or QAM it really has both ATSC and NTSC but no QAM? I'm not sure where but I think I saw a recorder on a web page not to long ago and it said it had ATSC tuner but didn't mention anything else. I thought it only had that but your saying that it has both even if NTSC is not mentioned?

Thanks all! I think I'm starting to get it -- sort of.

Personally, for me I don't use OTA so I don't have to worry about ATSC. So, from what I gather because I use cable (both standard without a box and with a box/digital) then I have to worry about getting a recorder that has at least NTSC for the standard basic cable recording as well as QAM for the digital stations above basic NTSC cable. ATSC is included with the other two not because I want it but because it comes with it.

Now in the future if basic cable without a cable box goes digital then I would need a recorder that has a QAM tuner to get even the basic cable stations. ATSC still wouldn't be needed because that is only for OTA which I don't use. Am I getting this right so far?

So, when I look for a new recorder and it says ATSC I need to find one that also says QAM. Plus, I have to make sure that it also includes an NTSC tuner for basic cable right now. Although, I just now found out that even if recorders say ATSC that it also includes NTSC but I would call or write to make sure if it doesn't say so.

Some day, but not right now basic cable still will use NTSC signal even though new things are coming out with ATSC tuners and if it goes digital it will be QAM.

So, for example, if a new Panasonic comes out and says ATSC and QAM tuner it really has three tuners in it -- ATSC, QAM and NTSC right?

If a website says ATSC tuner I assume that it is two tuners ATSC and NTSC.

Am I getting this right?

Thanks all! I think I'm starting to get it -- sort of.
I'm with you, Justin, but what this thread needs is a good monkey-wrench!

My understanding of ATSC is that it includes NTSC...must be able to receive and transmit it to the display device.

Here's an ATSC org. article that confuses me (http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ISSUES/what_is_ATSC.html)...the 3rd para. and the chart it introduces suggests that an NTSC signal is one of the 18 ATSC must be able to receive and display.

So...this could mean a single ATSC tuner will receive and display an NTSC signal, as it is supposed to do by spec., so the descriptions include "NTSC" and ATSC to not muddy the mktg waters with tech jargon, and there is only one RF connector...or do some mfgrs really include separate tuners for some $$ or tech. reasons, which should mean separate RF connectors or at least sep. internal paths, which seems terribly complicated if ATSC does include the NTSC signal display capability anyway????

That table lists the 18 ATSC broadcast modes and the last line lists current NTSC for comparison. ATSC and NTSC are separate standards. The new tuner chips have both ATSC and NTSC tuners to be compatible with the next 2 years of mixed analog/digital broadcasting. So in that sense one could be tempted to lump them altogether and say the ATSC tuners will tune NTSC. But there are 4 distinct tuner stages, NTSC & ATSC for analog & digital OTA and CATV & QAM for analog and digital cable.

A tuner described as being ATSC/NTSC/QAM compatable includes only one RF input. A tuner like this is nothing new. They have been available for years.

I think the problem is that too many people see only the short term. The HD cable box my parents just received is from at least 2002 and maybe earlier.....so I assume that there are some customers that have been using them for 5 years.

12 months x 5 years x $10/month = $600 (assume they don't raise the rental rate for you). (No DVR functions)

I bought an HD DVR with a cable card slot for $250...so purchasing seems to make sense. Even if you bought the same HD DVR today new ($550) you would still break even in less than 5 years (maybe quicker if rental fees are raised).and have the added HD DVR functionality.

Similar to the argument of leasing or buying a car. I would never lease a car because I drive them until they die and I like not having a monthly payment. Same thing that I do with most of my electronics (computers??? well that's another story). I still have a B&W 12" TV from 1986 (the old ones with dials) that I want to see if I can view ATSC signals through sometime :) -- with a converter box and RF modulator

As was indicated earlier, you still have to rent the cable card, don't you? Also the cable co DVR's are dual tuner units so you can watch as you record or record two channels at once. I was considering satellite a while back and looked up the prices of the dual-tuner hi-def DVR's and they were quite expensive, in the $800 range.

I would be the first to agree that one should sit down, assemble the relative costs & benefits and run the numbers. That's the only way to make an informed decision.

In an apples-to-apples comparison renting an STB probably makes the most sense (due to the low subsidized lease rates and relatively low savings - $10 out of a $70 cable bill) but as soon as you start making changes to the equation - like, change the programming to "basic" only - then ownership starts making more sense.

The bottom line is that in these times of great change it makes no sense to invest in anything that is likely to be superseded by something better within a short time. So if you're an OTA or basic cable subscriber it makes sense to look at buying something with ATSC/QAM tuner. If you're comfortable with paying $50-70 to the cable co keep paying those rental fees till things settle out. :2cents:

Also, with a 4-5 yr payback period, if the unit breaks once, the repair costs will wipe out any hope of long-term savings. Not to mention the lengthy period you will be without a device that is in the repair shop vs. a replacement by the cable co.

All have a DVD recorder so far.

Panasonic DMR-EZ17K - QAM - 215 (http://www.jr.com/JRProductPage.process?Product=4156935) - March
Panasonic DMR-EZ37K - QAM - VHS - 315 (http://www.jr.com/JRProductPage.process?Product=4156935) - March
Panasonic 230-380 (http://crave.cnet.com/8301-1_105-9675202-1.html) - May

Philips DVDR3505 - 200 (http://www.jr.com/JRProductPage.process?Product=4157181) - March - User Manual (http://www.p4c.philips.com/files/d/dvdr3505_37/dvdr3505_37_dfu_aen.pdf)
Philips DVDR3575H_37 - 160GB Hard Disc - 330 (http://www.compumusic.com/p228063.htm) - April

RCA DRC8335 VHS 250 (http://www.engadgethd.com/2007/01/09/atsc-ntsc-dvd-recorder-from-rca/) - April

Samsung AVR650 250 (http://www.samsung.com/common/microsite/exhibition/ices2007/presskit/ices2007_ce10.html) - April
Samsung AVR950 - VHS - 300 (http://www.ecost.com/ecost/shop/detail.asp?dpno=5073749) - April

Toshiba D-R550 - QAM - 230 (http://www.buy.com/prod/toshiba-dvd-recorder-with-built-in-tuner/q/loc/111/204113508.html?dcaid=17379) - March - Alt 1 (http://www.amazon.com/Toshiba-D-R550-Up-Converting-Recorder-Digital/dp/B000MY38PI) Alt 2 (http://www.vanns.com/shop/servlet/item/features/484319925)
Toshiba D-VR650 - QAM - VHS - 275 (http://www.buy.com/retail/product.asp?sku=204113510&loc=111&sp=1) - March

I put a March date on the units that are available for preorder.

Cross posted at HDTV reception hardware forum: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=803388
Found a Philips hard disk flavor for pre order.

Others will probably show up soon enough.

While the specs don't show a QAM tuner, the 3505 manual mentions being able to tune to "digital CATV" signals. Lots of other interesting info in the manual, like "minor channel".

Found a Philips hard disk flavor for pre order.

Whew. :p So we're at least not going to be shut out completely in that niche.

I can't find any information in the 3505 manual about how HD content is converted to SD for recording. There aren't any options for letterboxing or cropping the content. I suspect that it records all HD signals in anamorphic widescreen format, which would mean that upconverted SD programs have the pillar-bars recorded as part of the image, wasting some of the horizontal resolution. Or worse, it letterboxes everything. :eek:

anamorphic widescreen for SD makes sense, you could remove the pillar box (to view SD normally (not window boxed) on a 4:3 set, but it would require PC intervention.

If it letterboxes everything, which I don't think it will. I will not buy any.

i have a relative in florida and he said walmart has already started carrying them and they are for sale as of now.

DVD Player/Recorder
philips DVDR3505/37

thats the one that was spotted and he says its $149.99 not anywhere near $200 like j.r.com says.

i spoke to philips support and he said most if not all best buys and walmart should be carrying them.

so atsc recorders are here now..

philips DVDR3505/37

thats the one that was spotted and he says its $149.99 not anywhere near $200 like j.r.com says.

.
That would be only $10 above the current 3390 that Walmart carries. The question is: do any of these put out HD from the tuner?

That would be only $10 above the current 3390 that Walmart carries. The question is: do any of these put out HD from the tuner?What would be the easiest way to determine that? I'm thinking of picking one up this weekend and returning it if I'm not satisfied.

What would be the easiest way to determine that? I'm thinking of picking one up this weekend and returning it if I'm not satisfied.


According the the information on the website, it only has an ATSC SD tuner with NTSC included, so no true HD 720/1080 output.

anamorphic widescreen for SD makes sense, you could remove the pillar box (to view SD normally (not window boxed) on a 4:3 set, but it would require PC intervention.

If the recorder sets the DVD's aspect ratio flag to 16:9 when it records a HD signal, you should be able to get upconverted SD to display properly on a 4:3 TV by setting the DVD player to 4:3 pan&scan mode (which would chop off the pillarbars).

It would be rather stupid for the recorder set the flag to 4:3 when it knows it has a widescreen signal to begin with. Of course, stupidity is always a possibility. :rolleyes: We'll just have to wait and see how this unit turns out (and others like it).

According the the information on the website, it only has an ATSC SD tuner with NTSC included, so no true HD 720/1080 output.
There's no such thing, an ATSC SD tuner - an ATSC tuner can tune all ATSC formats including the HD ones - the issue is what does it output when used in tuner mode?

It likely tho that it only outputs 480i. The TV will tell you right away what kind of signal it sees but even that won't tell you everything since this is an upscaling DVDr. It would be interesting to see what an HD>downconverted>upconverted signal looks like.

It would also be good for someone to try the Philips unit to confirm that "digital CATV" means QAM tuner.

There's no such thing, an ATSC SD tuner - an ATSC tuner can tune all ATSC formats including the HD ones - the issue is what does it output when used in tuner mode?

It likely tho that it only outputs 480i. The TV will tell you right away what kind of signal it sees but even that won't tell you everything since this is an upscaling DVDr. It would be interesting to see what an HD>downconverted>upconverted signal looks like.

My opinion, and that is all it is, is that the new 2007 versions of DVD recorders with digital tuners will down convert to 480i at the tuner level. They are SD DVD recorders. I hope I am wrong.

If the recorder sets the DVD's aspect ratio flag to 16:9 when it records a HD signal, you should be able to get upconverted SD to display properly on a 4:3 TV by setting the DVD player to 4:3 pan&scan mode (which would chop off the pillarbars).



What is strange is the all my DVD players/recorders ignore this flag when set to P&S with a 4:3 display. The only time I've seen it work is with a DVD RAM on the Panny players. I've tried it before with a Panny & Sony DVD player. Plays back fine on my widescreen TV (16:9 flag is set) but drop it into the DVD player (set to P&S) and you get a nice window box. So, it sees the flag (stretching to widescreen), but doesn't do the P&S. Just my experience...so I don't record 4:3 shows anymore :D

My opinion, and that is all it is, is that the new 2007 versions of DVD recorders with digital tuners will down convert to 480i at the tuner level. They are SD DVD recorders. I hope I am wrong.

Why would this happen (at least in the better ones)? The tuner chip sets have it all there. No extra connector is required, as HDMI and component are already there. I am certain they will all down-convert at the recorder level, but I would assume you get a real 1080i/720p at the connector when using just the tuner.

Why would this happen (at least in the better ones)? The tuner chip sets have it all there. No extra connector is required, as HDMI and component are already there. I am certain they will all down-covert at the recorder level, but I would assume you get a real 1080i/720p at the connector when using just the tuner.

My opinion is only a guess. If you look at the promo material it quotes "up conversion" via HDMI. Not a native pass through from tuner to HDMI. Again only a guess and I hope I am wrong.

Why would this happen (at least in the better ones)? The tuner chip sets have it all there. No extra connector is required, as HDMI and component are already there. I am certain they will all down-convert at the recorder level, but I would assume you get a real 1080i/720p at the connector when using just the tuner.I would not think that at all. The outputs from a DVDR are really monitoring ports. If they are not showing you direct output from a playing disk, they will be showing you output from the tuner exactly as it will look when recorded. I think the hope that an ATSC DVDR could be used as a pass-through HD tuner is going to result in disappointment.

My opinion is only a guess. If you look at the promo material it quotes "up conversion" via HDMI. Not a native pass through from tuner to HDMI. Again only a guess and I hope I am wrong.

I looked at the Phillips manual and website; I might believe it for that one. As others have commented here, it's a Wallymart marketed one. But it would seem unlikely for some of the other manufacturers that market to a high-resolution crowd. I believe there will be alot of unhappy campers if the ATSC tuner included in the recorders don't really do HighDef, even though they have HDMI connectors.

Of course it'll be a few years until the prices/fallout of HD-DVD and/or Blu-Ray are reasonable and settled enough to give us HDTV recording of high definition signals, which is what we really want.

Oh, and look at page 1 of this thread for other opinions on the ATSC tuners. Personally, as an electronics engineer, I think these devices will work as tuners. It's not the same as a VCR.

What is strange is the all my DVD players/recorders ignore this flag when set to P&S with a 4:3 display.

My Philips DVP-642 player does do both letterbox and P&S mode correctly with one of my DVD-R's that I re-burned on my computer with the 16:9 flag set. However, my Panasonic DMR-E85H recorder doesn't play back the disc correctly when set to P&S mode (it squeezes the image horizontally), but does play it back correctly when set to letterbox mode! :confused:

Not that it matters much to me because I record upconverted SD by setting my HD receiver to 480i output and "side crop" mode which gets rid of the pillarbars before the E85 receives the signal.

I think the hope that an ATSC DVDR could be used as a pass-through HD tuner is going to result in disappointment.

I guess I will be disappointed and so will the companies...because they won't get any of my money that is waiting for them :(

I was planning on buying one to use in the home theater as a HDTV tuner (on my 100" screen) and have the ability to record if I wanted. If they don't send out an HD signal, no use in buying one. I can keep with the old s-video connections from my HD DVR to my 4 year old DVD recorder and get the same results.

I guess I will be disappointed and so will the companies...because they won't get any of my money that is waiting for them :(

I was planning on buying one to use in the home theater as a HDTV tuner (on my 100" screen) and have the ability to record if I wanted. If they don't send out an HD signal, no use in buying one. I can keep with the old s-video connections from my HD DVR to my 4 year old DVD recorder and get the same results.Lets not get overly pessimistic. The HDD machine says it will output 1080p. Still not proof that it isn't downscaling then upscaling, but I doubt all companies are going to be stupid.

My Philips DVP-642 player does do both letterbox and P&S mode correctly with one of my DVD-R's that I re-burned on my computer with the 16:9 flag set. However, my Panasonic DMR-E85H recorder doesn't play back the disc correctly when set to P&S mode (it squeezes the image horizontally), but does play it back correctly when set to letterbox mode! :confused:
there are four possible settings for the 16:9 flag on a DVD video titleset:
16:9 "Pan-Scan" - always crops the sides on a DVD player set to 4:3
16:9 "Letterboxed" - always letterboxes on a DVD player set to 4:3
16:9 "Pan-Scan & Letterboxed" - does what your DVD player is set to do
16:9 - should display 16:9 full frame, but I guess each player handles it differently

which one is your recorded DVD set to? I'm guessing it's the fourth one. you can find out by putting the recorded DVD in your PC and using a program like IfoEdit to look it up.

16:9 "Pan-Scan & Letterboxed" - does what your DVD player is set to do

That's the setting I used for the DVD in question. I checked it just now, to make sure. For a while, I used "16:9 Letterboxed" when I re-flagged widescreen DVDs, but I switched to the other setting some time ago.

And I did set the flag that way on all the video and menu files on that disc.

Here is another machine that says 1080p:
http://www.acephotodigital.com/sc/review-product-information.asp?id=964698305&rf=froogle&dfdate=02_27_2007

...i spoke to philips support and he said most if not all best buys and walmart should be carrying them.

so atsc recorders are here now..
Personally, I'll wait for a hard drive model.

The advent of digital transmission is a financial boon for the cable co's. With this new technology they get to correct all the mistakes to their analog business model to maximize their profits. They are not likely to give this up. By encrypting all but the local channels (which I'm sure they would if they were allowed to) they force you to rent an STB for every device you want to hook up to their service. So in addition to charging you a premium for "upgrading" to digital service they now can charge you a monthly fee on a per device basis. As long as their cap cost for the stb's is low enough to be recovered in a reasonable amount of time, they are unlikely to relinquish this new revenue stream.

I recently read a technical FAQ on FIOS TV design that provided some surprising cable tidbits. If I can find it again I'll post the link, but in summary:
Cable systems in metro areas operate on 750-850 MHz bandwidth.
That bandwidth is shared amongst all their services, TV, VOIP, VOD, Internet service.
An analog broadcast channel takes up 6 MHz of bandwidth.
Using digital transmission, a cable co can fit 6-8 SD or 2-3 HD channels in full quality in that 6 MHz.

Anyone who thinks the cable co's are not going to get out of analog transmission as soon as possible is deluding themselves. They will do it in a way and timeframe that they believe maximizes their profits.

On top of that, if DirecTV actually delivers on their promise of 100 HD channels this year, it will put a lot of pressure on the cable companies to increase the number of HD channels they offer, and one way to bump that number up is to consume the analog channels. DirecTV ads are already touting their 100 TBD HD channels.

Perhaps the cable cos will convert "standard cable" channels to digital and use the bandwidth for HD/digital and leave only the "limited cable" channels as analog? I am not advocating that, I'm just looking at what they could/would do to get enough bandwidth to increase their HD output.

Also the DVR rental prices have gone up for Comcast ($12/mo from $10/mo)

On top of that, if DirecTV actually delivers on their promise of 100 HD channels this year, it will put a lot of pressure on the cable companies to increase the number of HD channels they offer, and one way to bump that number up is to consume the analog channels. DirecTV ads are already touting their 100 TBD HD channels.

Perhaps the cable cos will convert "standard cable" channels to digital and use the bandwidth for HD/digital and leave only the "limited cable" channels as analog? I am not advocating that, I'm just looking at what they could/would do to get enough bandwidth to increase their HD output.
That's almost a given - it's just a matter of the timetable.

All of this 100 HD chs is marketing BS - there are no where near that many chs with HD programming. FIOS carries the majority of HD chs and they're up to, what, maybe 25? And most of the chs deemed HD only have HD material showing part time.:rolleyes:

That's almost a given - it's just a matter of the timetable.

All of this 100 HD chs is marketing BS - there are no where near that many chs with HD programming. FIOS carries the majority of HD chs and they're up to, what, maybe 25? And most of the chs deemed HD only have HD material showing part time.:rolleyes:

Technically yes, and there is the lawsuit that DirecTV HD is not true HD, but for marketing purposes they are hammering the 100 channel message into everyone's living room and the cable companies have nothing to counter it.

As far as getting to 100 channels, the 100-channel deal was in conjuction with the content providers adding HD versions of their channels. I think a number of NBCUni channels were mentioned (eg SciFi). I forgot the details of their press release. I doubt they are actually going to reach 100 since it woudl require both DirecTV to get it done and the various content providers to also get it done independentantly.

Technically yes, and there is the lawsuit that DirecTV HD is not true HD, but for marketing purposes they are hammering the 100 channel message into everyone's living room and the cable companies have nothing to counter it.

Why not? The cable cos could start misleading just as well as D*. :rolleyes:

I can see it now: Come to Comcast where we will have 100+ HD ch

Then at the bottom of the ad you see:

100 HD ch availability will happen in 20 years and none of those will be available in clear QAM so you can't use your new DVDr without an STB.

there are four possible settings for the 16:9 flag on a DVD video titleset:
16:9 "Pan-Scan" - always crops the sides on a DVD player set to 4:3
16:9 "Letterboxed" - always letterboxes on a DVD player set to 4:3
16:9 "Pan-Scan & Letterboxed" - does what your DVD player is set to do
16:9 - should display 16:9 full frame, but I guess each player handles it differently

which one is your recorded DVD set to? I'm guessing it's the fourth one. you can find out by putting the recorded DVD in your PC and using a program like IfoEdit to look it up.
Do you have a reference (web site or otherwise) source for these options as described? I have seen similar, but maybe different versions of the flags (actually referred to as a pair of data bits in the VBI) and I am trying my best to understand how this all works.

The labels that came with my Video Filter (from Logic Design) specify a pair of settings for DIP switches: 1) 16:9 or 4:3, and 2) Normal or Letterboxed.

I am not challenging your information. I am hoping to somehow correlate the Video Filter version with yours to improve my understanding of how the flags are set and then how the DVD players respond to them.

I have tested and confirmed DVD player behaviors (to my satisfaction at least) as they relate to user-set options in the player (screen aspect ratio and pan and scan vs. letterbox of 16:9 programs).

This gets a little confusing when viewing a 4:3 program on a DVD (set for 16:9 TV) because the result on the 16:9 TV is a horizontally-stretched version of the 4:3 program. I have not found a method of achieving OAR viewing of a 4:3 DVD program on a 16:9 TV, short of changing the settings on the TV. This can work for me, but it confuses others in my family.

Why not? The cable cos could start misleading just as well as D*. :rolleyes:

I can see it now: Come to Comcast where we will have 100+ HD ch

Then at the bottom of the ad you see:

100 HD ch availability will happen in 20 years and none of those will be available in clear QAM so you can't use your new DVDr without an STB.

LOL. That's what they'll probably do! But I haven't seen anything from them yet.

Or perhaps they can upconvert the digital channels and count them as HD. Or pehraps they'll pile up all the PBS digitals and weather channels from all neighboring states to bump their counts :-)

Personally, I'll wait for a hard drive model.
When do we expect hard drive models to become available?

When do we expect hard drive models to become available?
DanielCard seems to believe April (see first post in this thread). :)

Technically yes, and there is the lawsuit that DirecTV HD is not true HD, but for marketing purposes they are hammering the 100 channel message into everyone's living room and the cable companies have nothing to counter it.I have often heard DirecTV's content described as HD-lite because they overcompress the signal using MPEG-4 to make up for their limited bandwidth.

FIOS appears to be the king of bandwidth. They run a fiber up to the house and use separate wavelengths for their services. According to a Verizon FAQ they dedicate a single wavelength to TV so they can use all 850MHz to broadcast ~400 HD channels at full quality. They use a separate wavelength(s) for phone, Internet access and VOD.

DanielCard seems to believe April (see first post in this thread). :)Yes, it is available for pre order from a company I'm not familiar with. If it was available for pre order from a larger retailer then I would guess March. New machines are popping up available to pre order on the web everyday, so I don't think it will be later than april.

Stop telling me what I can't have. Or it's time to move.

Yes, it is available for pre order from a company I'm not familiar with. If it was available for pre order from a larger retailer then I would guess March. New machines are popping up available to pre order on the web everyday, so I don't think it will be later than april.
I hope you're right. :)

Do you have a reference (web site or otherwise) source for these options as described? I have seen similar, but maybe different versions of the flags (actually referred to as a pair of data bits in the VBI) and I am trying my best to understand how this all works.

The labels that came with my Video Filter (from Logic Design) specify a pair of settings for DIP switches: 1) 16:9 or 4:3, and 2) Normal or Letterboxed.

I am not challenging your information. I am hoping to somehow correlate the Video Filter version with yours to improve my understanding of how the flags are set and then how the DVD players respond to them.

I have tested and confirmed DVD player behaviors (to my satisfaction at least) as they relate to user-set options in the player (screen aspect ratio and pan and scan vs. letterbox of 16:9 programs).

This gets a little confusing when viewing a 4:3 program on a DVD (set for 16:9 TV) because the result on the 16:9 TV is a horizontally-stretched version of the 4:3 program. I have not found a method of achieving OAR viewing of a 4:3 DVD program on a 16:9 TV, short of changing the settings on the TV. This can work for me, but it confuses others in my family.
when the aspect is set to 4:3 on the DVD disc, then the player outputs the full-screen image, no cropping or letterboxing, no matter what setting it has. in that case, folks with a widescreen TV have to go into the TV settings and change their TV to display 4:3 because DVD players don't pillarbox. hopefully Blu-Ray/HD-DVD players will pillarbox.

Check the following link for an idea of how DVD source aspect ratio, player aspect setting, and display aspect all fit together in different combinations:
http://stream.uen.org/medsol/dvd/pages/dvdvid_features_aspectrati.html (scroll down to the tables)

Did a quick search of this thread, but did not find mention of the 2 new Toshiba DVD recorders that will be offered without tuners.

From the Toshiba web site: (click here) (http://www.tacp.toshiba.com/news/newsarticle.asp?newsid=133)

Toshiba's entry level D-R400 single deck DVD recorder offers HDMI with upconversion to 720p, 1080i and 1080p. It also offers one touch recording and a DV input. The step-up model, the D-R550, adds ATSC, QAM and NTSC tuners.

The top of the line Toshiba D-VR650 Super Multi Drive DVD recorder + VCR combination unit offers ATSC, QAM and NTSC tuners and HDMI with upconversion to 720p and 1080i. In addition to recording and playback of DVD-R/-RW/+R/+RW, this model also offers recording and playback of DVD-RAM. The D-VR650 features Toshiba's high quality DVD recorder capabilities and a 4 Head Hi-Fi VCR capable of high speed bi-directional dubbing. For added flexibility and convenience to consumers, Toshiba will also offer the D-VR600 which includes the same features as the D-VR650 without the tuners.

So it appears that Toshiba will be selling 2 DVD recorders without tuners. The D-R400, and the D-VR600 that adds VHS.

Amazon.com has these listed for preorder.

i have a relative in florida and he said walmart has already started carrying them and they are for sale as of now.

DVD Player/Recorder
philips DVDR3505/37

thats the one that was spotted and he says its $149.99 not anywhere near $200 like j.r.com says.

i spoke to philips support and he said most if not all best buys and walmart should be carrying them.

so atsc recorders are here now..No one else has seen them, so I have doubts.

No one else has seen them, so I have doubts.
Unlike the new hard drive version (DVDR3575H/37) which no one knows
when it will be released, the DVDR3505/37 is listed on the Philips website
here. (http://www.consumer.philips.com/consumer/catalog/tree/en/us/consumer/home_entertainment_gr_us_consumer/dvd_home_theater_ca_us_consumer/ce/_productId_DVDR3505_37_US_CONSUMER/DVD_Player_Recorder+DVDR3505_37?proxybuster=OTR4BU0QL2DIDJ0R MRCSHQNHKFSESI5P)
I don't see a price though...

ouch seems expensive.

Unlike the new hard drive version (DVDR3575H/37) which no one knows
when it will be released, the DVDR3505/37 is listed on the Philips website
here. (http://www.consumer.philips.com/consumer/catalog/tree/en/us/consumer/home_entertainment_gr_us_consumer/dvd_home_theater_ca_us_consumer/ce/_productId_DVDR3505_37_US_CONSUMER/DVD_Player_Recorder+DVDR3505_37?proxybuster=OTR4BU0QL2DIDJ0R MRCSHQNHKFSESI5P)
I don't see a price though...
Someone in Fl said it was selling for $149 at Walmart - sounds like an upgrade to the 3390 that Walmart already carries.

Someone in Fl said it was selling for $149 at Walmart - sounds like an upgrade to the 3390 that Walmart already carries.
So far, the DVDR3575H/37 with 160 GB hard drive is only listed
at one site, (http://www.compumusic.com/p228063.htm)
and will be a little over $300 USD.

So far, the DVDR3575H/37 with 160 GB hard drive is only listed
at one site, (http://www.compumusic.com/p228063.htm)
and will be a little over $300 USD.
I was talking about the 3505.

I was talking about the 3505.
I know. :D

While many sites list the Samsung DVD-R157 with an ATSC tuner according to the manual listed on the Samsung web site, it does not have a tuner.

No one else has seen them, so I have doubts.

Me too! I think it might be late March-April before we get any user report. Me, I'm waiting for the Pannys, which are slated for April-May, according to the press reports.

It's real screwy for those of us with "HDTV ready" sets. Next to no separate tuners now available, no ATSC recorders either. Except for the high power consumption and possible noise, I'd probably convert my desktop computer to a home theatre PC and record everything in high def.

Unlike the new hard drive version (DVDR3575H/37) which no one knows
when it will be released, the DVDR3505/37 is listed on the Philips website
...


I just read the manual for this and it states that it will only record in 4:3 format, even if the source material is 16:9. This makes no sense as if I am recording HD I would want to at least retain the 16:9 format and not have to use the 4:3 for playback on a widescreen tv (or have to use stretch which makes the picture worse)

I was hoping to get one of the new ATSC models and have the output go to one of my existing hard drive units for now, for the sole reason of being able to record the widescreen format - even knowing that it won't be true high definition quality.

I just read the manual for this and it states that it will only record in 4:3 format, even if the source material is 16:9. This makes no sense as if I am recording HD I would want to at least retain the 16:9 format and not have to use the 4:3 for playback on a widescreen tv (or have to use stretch which makes the picture worse)

I was hoping to get one of the new ATSC models and have the output go to one of my existing hard drive units for now, for the sole reason of being able to record the widescreen format - even knowing that it won't be true high definition quality.

So, does it letterbox it to adjust aspect ratio? My TV has a mode that expands letterbox in such a way that doesn't look too bad, but not as good as a widescreen DVD. I imagine widescreen DVD quality is what you were hoping for. Me too!

I just read the manual for this and it states that it will only record in 4:3 format, even if the source material is 16:9. This makes no sense as if I am recording HD I would want to at least retain the 16:9 format and not have to use the 4:3 for playback on a widescreen tv (or have to use stretch which makes the picture worse)



I would hope that this would at least do a letterbox and not an indiscrimante crop. Some shows (ER, Conan, etc) are showing letterbox on the SD feed, so cropping that would lose important data...in the future even more will play outside the 4:3 safe area.

If this can't record 16:9, cross it off my list of candidates.

I'm interested in the Toshiba D R550 and the Panasonic DMR-EZ17K.

Basically I'm interested in an NTSC/ATSC/QAM tuner that records. A 250 gig or greater DDR would be preferred but a DVD recorder that does 16:9 anamorphic recordings properly would be OK if the price is right. Of course DD 5.1 would also be nice.

The two listed above meet the basic criterion, but do any of you know of any DVRs with NTSC/ATSC/QAM tuners at reasonable prices coming to market anytime in the near future?

I'm interested in the Toshiba D R550 and the Panasonic DMR-EZ17K.

Basically I'm interested in an NTSC/ATSC/QAM tuner that records. A 250 gig or greater DDR would be preferred but a DVD recorder that does 16:9 anamorphic recordings properly would be OK if the price is right. Of course DD 5.1 would also be nice.

The two listed above meet the basic criterion, but do any of you know of any DVRs with NTSC/ATSC/QAM tuners at reasonable prices coming to market anytime in the near future?
I don't know about Toshiba, but I've been told by a Panasonic employee
than their 2007 models will not have hard drives.
The only DVR/DVD Recorder (http://www.compumusic.com/p228063.htm) I've seen so far has an unknown release date. :(

The two listed above meet the basic criterion, but do any of you know of any DVRs with NTSC/ATSC/QAM tuners at reasonable prices coming to market anytime in the near future?

Tivo S3? Though that probably doesn't fit your reasonable prices criterion, though I got one because of the (now expired) lifetime transfer option.

The S3 is nice to too pricey. The Philips would be nice but QAM is a must. :( :( :(

Circuit City put all of their recorders on sale today. Hopefully that is a sign the new batch of ATSC recorders are coming soon.

I just got back from Best Buy and did not see any cut prices on the DVD recorders.

I had a de ja vue feeling in that years ago when shopping for a DVD recorder I could never tell from the outside of the box if a Tuner was included.

Now I am back to similar issue. Is tuner included and is it ATSC or NTSC or Both?

-DonB2

I would hope that this would at least do a letterbox and not an indiscrimante crop. Some shows (ER, Conan, etc) are showing letterbox on the SD feed, so cropping that would lose important data...in the future even more will play outside the 4:3 safe area.

If this can't record 16:9, cross it off my list of candidates.


In our market area, some of the stations are broadcasting two (or more) substations. The regular digital HiDef station as primary, then a substation with digtial broadcast thats letterboxed and not HD.


I record ER from analog right now and it shows up as letterboxed (with great pic on my upconverting DVD player) So I would expect the digital broadcast to look as good or better.

It will be good to see how these recorders handle the HD broadcast though.

Rick

In our market area, some of the stations are broadcasting two (or more) substations. The regular digital HiDef station as primary, then a substation with digtial broadcast thats letterboxed and not HD.


I record ER from analog right now and it shows up as letterboxed (with great pic on my upconverting DVD player) So I would expect the digital broadcast to look as good or better.

It will be good to see how these recorders handle the HD broadcast though.

Rick
I record DTV with my LiteOn HD-A760GX through a (Digital Stream) STB
and the quality is definately better than when I record analog.

Toshiba has put their new DVD records up on their website (D-R550 (http://www.tacp.toshiba.com/dvr/product.asp?model=d-r550) and D-VR650 (http://www.tacp.toshiba.com/dvr/product.asp?model=d-vr650) ). The specs are a little hard to interpret, but that's pretty standard.

Bob

Toshiba has put their new DVD records up on their website (D-R550 (http://www.tacp.toshiba.com/dvr/product.asp?model=d-r550) and D-VR650 (http://www.tacp.toshiba.com/dvr/product.asp?model=d-vr650) ). The specs are a little hard to interpret, but that's pretty standard.

Bob
I don't see anything about an ATSC tuner with either one...

I don't see anything about an ATSC tuner with either one...

Look at the Detail Specs for the D-VR650.

Look at the Detail Specs for the D-VR650.At the bottom of the detailed specs page is a note that an external tuner is required to record television programming - implying that this model has no tuner at all.

That's the confusing part. The last line in the Video section says:
Built-In ATSC/NTSC/QAM Digital Tuning

At the bottom of the detailed specs page is a note that an external tuner is required to record television programming - implying that this model has no tuner at all.
Yes, that's what caught my eye, and why my last post. :)
Now if Toshiba would just come out with something
similar to the as yet unreleased Philips DVDR2575H/37 (http://www.compumusic.com/p228063.htm)
I'd be tempted to spend a little more for the better brand. :D

I have the same issue with JR music in the Samsung DVDR157 indicates a tuner but the manual shows none and I have emailed them twice with WTF, and of course - no reply.

I have the same issue with JR music in the Samsung DVDR157 indicates a tuner but the manual shows none and I have emailed them twice with WTF, and of course - no reply.
If look at the manual for the 157, it has a digram of the rear panel - it has no RF connector - definitely no tuner.

At the bottom of the detailed specs page is a note that an external tuner is required to record television programming - implying that this model has no tuner at all.
If you check out the 550, you'll see the same footnote. However, the name of the 550 is DVD-Recorder with built-in Tuner.

I'd say that Toshiba's website is messy, to say the least. In fact, on the DVD-Recorder with the 250GB hard drive, there's a footnote saying that Tivo fee is required for full functionality, but the unit has TVGOS.

Go figure

"If look at the manual for the 157, it has a digram of the rear panel - it has no RF connector - definitely no tuner."

Probably the surest way to tell!!!!!

-DonB2

If look at the manual for the 157, it has a digram of the rear panel - it has no RF connector - definitely no tuner.As long as you have the manual . . . can the unit be time-programmed or is it strictly manual record from the line inputs.

Yes, it has timer recording.

By the way, Samsung's new DVD recorder/VCR combo for 2007, the DVD-VR357 is also tunerless, and also has timer recording.

DVD recorders with ATSC tuners are DVD-AVR950 and AVR650. Someone posted this previously. Now I'll cancel my preorder for the DVDR157
http://www.samsung.com/common/microsite/exhibition/ices2007/presskit/ices2007_ce10.html

Yes, it has timer recording.

By the way, Samsung's new DVD recorder/VCR combo for 2007, the DVD-VR357 is also tunerless, and also has timer recording.Amazing. The price premium to include an ATSC tuner is just too much for the cloners to stomach.

DVD recorders with ATSC tuners are DVD-AVR950 and AVR650. Someone posted this previously. Now I'll cancel my preorder for the DVDR157
http://www.samsung.com/common/microsite/exhibition/ices2007/presskit/ices2007_ce10.html

Amazing how they manage to deceit without actually lying. From reading that press release you'd never be able to tell that the 155/157 are tunerless. They keep on ranting about what you can do, but completely omit the part of what they won't do.

So has anyone detected any difference between the 155 and 157? Why in the world are there two models with the same features!?

Just FYI, Sony has three new recorders on their website.
All three are tunerless.

Nice going Sony! :mad:

What a bunch of morons. I hope they get a ton of them sent back! :p

Amazing how they manage to deceit without actually lying. From reading that press release you'd never be able to tell that the 155/157 are tunerless. They keep on ranting about what you can do, but completely omit the part of what they won't do.

So has anyone detected any difference between the 155 and 157? Why in the world are there two models with the same features!?

The 157 has cable box control, and the 155 does not.

I had a few things to say about who is in charge of these companies and why they may not give a darn that their new DVD recorder product line will be "shooting blanks -aka no turners" but I will keep it to myself. :mad:

-DonB2

Just FYI, Sony has three new recorders on their website.
All three are tunerless.Anyone want to bet they are nothing more than rebadges of some of the cheap tunerless clones already under discussion.

Anyone want to bet they are nothing more than rebadges of some of the cheap tunerless clones already under discussion.

I agree.

My feeling is that the new wave of 2007 models from top tier manufacturers are nothing more than rebadges. Except for maybe Panasonic.

The new 2007 Toshiba combos are nothing like the Toshibas of old for example. My guess is they are not Toshiba. Toshiba started this in 2006 with two lower end models.

JVC did it last year with its combo unit which is made by LG and also sells rebadged as a low end Best Buy house brand model.

Does any of these companies really manufactor anything anymore? They are constantly merging, splitting, selling, buying... It seems to me like it doesn't matter what you buy anymore, it's always made by Funai, which bought the rights to use somebody else name to make it more expensive.

The big names just seem to come up with the new technologies but never really make any quality products themselves.

What are the chances that most of these tunerless models are actually last years models with the RF connector and tuner section removed? The biggest expense would have been to rewrite the firmware to remove any tuner related menu items.

The new tuner models actually took some money to design. :rolleyes:

Does any of these companies really manufactor anything anymore? They are constantly merging, splitting, selling, buying... It seems to me like it doesn't matter what you buy anymore, it's always made by Funai, which bought the rights to use somebody else name to make it more expensive.

The big names just seem to come up with the new technologies but never really make any quality products themselves.

I think you are looking at this from too much of a US-centric position. Look at the DVD recorders that the BIG 4 make for sale in Japan, and you'll see some great products with many innovations.

The problem in the US is that we are not willing to spend the cash that the Japanese are to acquire these recorders, and so we are left with the Chinese clone knock offs and their counterparts from the major DVD recorder manufacturers. We want cheap...and we get it!!

Just FYI, Sony has three new recorders on their website.
All three are tunerless.


One more manufacturer off my list...looks like narrowing down a brand isn't going to be too hard after all.

I think the 3/1 date caught many makers unprepared (1.5 years ago they thought they'd get another reprieve from the FCC but didn't) and they decided to go the cheap route and offer these tunerless DVDrs - for all you know the guts of them are just last year's model with the tuner removed (along with the rear RF connector) and firmware updated. That could have been done quick and cheap. If the market is there I'm sure Sony and others that are offering these tunerless models will come out with proper ASTC tuner equipped models (including HDD ones) later.

We want cheap...and we get it!!Yeah, but it'd be nice if they at least offered a higher line for people like us who actually give a care about the quality :rolleyes: :).

The problem in the US is that we are not willing to spend the cash that the Japanese are to acquire these recorders, and so we are left with the Chinese clone knock offs and their counterparts from the major DVD recorder manufacturers. We want cheap...and we get it!!Amen. Just look at all the posts we get these days wanting info and recommendations for sub-$100 units that do everything. Remember the Cyberhome thread. A lot of people seem very willing to put up with crap quality and performance if it is cheap enough.

Amen. Just look at all the posts we get these days wanting info and recommendations for sub-$100 units that do everything. Remember the Cyberhome thread. A lot of people seem very willing to put up with crap quality and performance if it is cheap enough.


That's an entirely different subject though -->> when you spend under 100 and something is called CyberHome you expect to be crap and cheap. But when you're spending three times as much for a name like Sony or Toshiba why do you still get a product made by the same third party company that made the $100 CyberHome?

Amen. Just look at all the posts we get these days wanting info and recommendations for sub-$100 units that do everything. Remember the Cyberhome thread. A lot of people seem very willing to put up with crap quality and performance if it is cheap enough.
Not me. :D

The problem in the US is that we are not willing to spend the cash that the Japanese are to acquire these recorders, and so we are left with the Chinese clone knock offs and their counterparts from the major DVD recorder manufacturers. We want cheap...and we get it!!

I bet cable operators in Japan don't rent DVRs for the equivalent of a few dollars per month. For that matter, how widespread is cable TV in Japan, anyway?

I think you are looking at this from too much of a US-centric position. Look at the DVD recorders that the BIG 4 make for sale in Japan, and you'll see some great products with many innovations.


I just did look, and feel sick. Take a peek at the Japanese Toshiba (http://www3.toshiba.co.jp/hdd-dvd/products/index.html), and especially the Panasonic (http://panasonic.jp/dvd/lineup/) sites.

Wooo HOOOO!! Just coming back from Best Buy! It's official - I have a new ATSC/QAM tuner LG recorder. The model is LG DR787T. Haven't even opened it yet, but couldn't wait to share! It looks awesome on the outside, hopefully will work good too.

please state your location.

i havent seen any of them in person myself but a relative of mine said they were out now in florida..

i live in raleigh NC.

please state your location.

i havent seen any of them in person myself but a relative of mine said they were out now in florida..

i live in raleigh NC.

Not too far from you - Columbia, SC. We have two stores here, I was at the other one they didn't have any. Today I stopped by the second and there were only two on the shelves at $229.

there were only two on the shelves at $229.Does the manual say anything about 1080p or is 1080i the best it will do?

They didn't have any here in Phoenix. A sales clerk said they are going to redo the area with ATSC tuner models in a couple of weeks. They are currently getting rid of all of the ntsc tuner recorders. All of them were on sale.

Wooo HOOOO!! Just coming back from Best Buy! It's official - I have a new ATSC/QAM tuner LG recorder. The model is LG DR787T. Haven't even opened it yet, but couldn't wait to share! It looks awesome on the outside, hopefully will work good too.

Here's what I (we?) want to know.

When just using the tuner, does the machine output the HD stream or does it downconvert and then upconvert the signal?

Here's what I (we?) want to know.

When just using the tuner, does the machine output the HD stream or does it downconvert and then upconvert the signal?How would someone who purchases one know this?

How would someone who purchases one know this?

I could tell by looking at the picture (swapping back between a HD source (TV tuner) and the recorder's tuner. Easiest way is to look closely at faces and see how defined the lines (wrinkles) are in the face. The SD image (even upconverted) will look softer (less wrinkes) than a true HD image.

Maybe the manual says....like the Philips one with the hard drive states that it outputs video in SD.

So I've been playing with it all day long. It's a great toy, but again confirms my believe that LG is a half ****** company that makes the same crap that it did when it was called GoldStar.

First to answer the one question I can for sure: 1080i is the maximum resolution output, only over the HDMI. Unfortunately I don't have an HDMI input on my projector so it is impossible for me to say if the HDTV signal is downcoverted then upconverted, my guess is that it is.

I am not sure if it is the program material or the recorder, but I haven't found a single broadcast yet in Dolby Digital, which makes me believe that the recorder does not decode the DD signal, hense I am inclined to believe that it does not really output the real HDTV picture either.

I am entirely impressed by the quality of the picture anyway though. Sinve I moved to my new house, and can't exactly afford $70 a month for cable I've been living with the terrible waves and shakes of OTA analog TV for about a month now. Needless to say getting prestine quality TV almost made me tear up. I am still mad at the SOB that came to install my cable internet, at my previous apartment the cable guy left the line untapped, so I was getting free basic cable, but not anymore.

I had tried hooking up the cable from the internet connection to the TV, but I can only get 4 boring channels - Fitness TV, Oxygen, We, and something else that looks like some religious program. So I was very curious to see if the QAM tuner would pull out anything more.

My heart literally skipped a beat when it showed over 100 channels found. The QAM tuner took almost 30 minutes to scan. Sadly though none of those channels are really viewable - they show up for about a seond, then they disappear, then again, and like that, but not one came up. So I decided to see how it would work with a paying customer's cable at my BF's house.

It was very impressive but also a little aggravating. It found 114 channels (QAM). From those all the local HDTV once were available, all the music channels that Time Warner offers, as well as about 10 premium movie channels! I didn't wait to see which one, cause his grandma was getting inpatient to watch her show.

The aggravating thing is that when it scans the QAM frequencies it finds tonnes of channels, but then when you try to watch them, only a handful of them are really available, I am not exactly sure why is it storing all of them when it clearly says after words either: "no signal" or "scrambled". The point is that after you spend 30 min scanning, you have to spend another hour manually deleting all the ones that are not really available.

The other thing I don't like is that it is hard to easily switch between scrolling through digital, and analog channels. You have to pretty much scroll through one set to get to the other. I am still not entirely clear on the direct channel access with the number buttons.

At home with my antenna I picked up 12 HD channels, I am not sure how many are possible, TitanTV shows about 30. If anyone knows a different way to figure out the available ones please let me know.

OK now a little details about the recorder.

It looks really sleek - all black (finally!), and not the glossy black that attracts fingerprints and smudges. Also the front panel buttons (except power and channels) are touch pane without physical buttons. That's really cool looking, but less convenient, because they turn off automatically every 10 seconds and to activate the buttons you have to touch the panel once, and then second time to press an actual button. In line with my shallow nature though, I am totally happy to deal with a little inconvenience for cool looks.

The thing, I am guessing will make a lot of people mad, is that there is no S-video input. There is a RF blaster to control other boxes though.

There is a built in RF modulator, and luckily all outputs are active in 480p, but in anything above, only the HDMI is active, so simultaneous connection to two monitors will have to be done up to 480p. The component output's maximum resolution is also 480p. Switching the resolution is done through one of the touch panel buttons.

The picture quality is pretty good, but a little uneven between different sources and channels. I find myself constantly adjusting the brightness both on the projector and on my TV.

The other thing that bothers me is that the unit gets really hot. I noticed that on the older LG recorder and on the Insignia model made by LG so that's still the same. Also while a disc is spinning the whole unit is vibrating really hard the whole time.

I really liked that in tuner mode the front display shows the clock instead of the channel number, but during disc playback there is no way to show the clock neither on the front nor on the on-screen display. The good thing is that the on-screen display at least shows both the elapsed and the remaining time of the title.

I haven't tried recording anything yet. The recorder supposedly supports all formats, including RAM and double layer. It came with a blank DVD-RW disc. The remote looks exactly the same like the previous models, but in black.


Hmmmmm, that's all I can think of right now.

When you scan your over the air channels, can you go back and delete a single subchannel? For example, if you have 24-1 and 24-2, can you delete 24-2 and still leave 24-1. My older LST-3510A (by LG) won't let you delete a sub-channel without deleting them all.

Wonder if they are still using the same 3 year old tuner.

When you scan your over the air channels, can you go back and delete a single subchannel? For example, if you have 24-1 and 24-2, can you delete 24-2 and still leave 24-1. My older LST-3510A (by LG) won't let you delete a sub-channel without deleting them all.

Wonder if they are still using the same 3 year old tuner.

Yes, you can. Each channel shows individually in an editing list, and from there you can delete, make it favorite, add it manually if it was not added automatically, or skip (not sure how's that different from delete).

great first look write-up bobbyslav... now if you can let us know about recorder quality it would be even better.
how about inputs - DV? s-video? component? or just cheap composite?

thanks

great first look write-up bobbyslav... now if you can let us know about recorder quality it would be even better.
how about inputs - DV? s-video? component? or just cheap composite?

thanks

As I said - No S video, there is a DV, and two composite - 1 front, 1 back. There is also a USB input on the front. I can't remember for sure but I think 6 hours is the longest mode, no flex time, 5 or 10 min auto chapter + manual chapter creation. Tomorrow I'll record Desperate Housewives to check it out.

So I've been playing with it all day long. It's a great toy, but again confirms my believe that LG is a half ****** company that makes the same crap that it did when it was called GoldStar...
Is that true - LG is the old Gold Star? I made the terrible mistake
of buying a Gold Star VCR many years ago. It literally quit
one day after the warranty was up...

Thanks bobby...
That was a nice review of the LG. Some of us were wondering about the maximum output of the resolution on these new recorders for general viewing. I was hoping for 540p or higher, but I guess 480p on the LG is not bad.

I guess they are saving the higher resolution outputs for future HD DVD recorders to make more money. You can't blame them. I wonder if the picture will look any better with HDMI, let us know.

I think this is playing out the way most people thought it would - standard definition digital tuners. Remember these are standard definition DVD recorders. Everything coming into the tuner should be down rez'd to SD at the tuner level. For those models with HDMI this SD signal will then be upscaled.

The PQ for those folks that are now recording analog over the air signals should be excellent with the new ATSC tuners. This will be a great benefit.