HD-DVD

+ Much cheaper disc production. Dual Layered discs (30gb) the standard
+ VC-1 codec has a very smooth, less grainy image that is visually appealing
+ The name! HUGE plus!! No one is going to ask "What's a HD DVD?"
+ HDi Interactivity. Really great stuff. PIP commentary is sweet!
+ Red cases - does not distract from movie artwork
+ HD DVD on top spine. Lines up very well with other HD DVDs.
+ 100% Backwards compatibility with DVD and excellent upscaling
+ Consistent timed releases of hardware and software

- 30gb and Bandwidth. Bandwidth is probably more of a handicap than 30gb.
- Lack of Lossless audio. Only a handful of True HD tracks. Huge Minus! Most if not all titles should be lossless!
- You guessed it, studio support. The biggest minus of all.
- Most players are 1080i.
- No resume. Must bookmark.

Ace in the hole - Currently: 360 Addon. Potentially: Low Cost Chinese players for the masses.

Blu-ray

+ 1080p output on all players
+ Uncompressed/Lossless audio on virtually all exclusive titles!
+ Cutting edge optical tech. 50GB dual layered discs with superior bandwidth to HD DVD. Biggest selling point!
+ Huge Studio support. Exclusive titles outnumber HD DVD. Biggest asset to Blu-ray
+ Blu-ray logo sells itself. Looks great and marketable.

- Expensive Standalone prices
- Dual Layered discs slowly becoming the standard, but not yet.
- Lack of extras on most discs
- The name. "What is a Blu-ray?" *Note that the logo is more marketable*
- Unfinished! Biggest gripe about the format. Lack of Java finalization prevents advanced Interactivity
- Constant delayed hardware and software

Ace in the hole - Currently: Sony PS3. Potentially: Massive userbase through PS3 until standalones become more affordable.

Maybe you need to add an area for "neutral" differences? e.g. Rom-Mark, BD+, combo discs, region coding, etc.?

Then at least we could argue if any of these are neutral, +, or -.

+ Red cases - does not distract from movie artwork

I disagree. Both formats colored cases can be good or bad. Take Corpse Bride for instance, it's coverart is mostly blue and looks terrific in a BD case. OTOH, look at Phantom Of The Opera which looks very good in an HD DVD case but very bad in a BD case. Thus I think using the color of the case as a plus is a mistake. It's really hit or miss from what I've seen.

+Much cheaper disc production. Dual Layered discs (30gb) the standard

How much cheaper? 20%? 80%? Why do we care, are the movies cheaper?

+ VC-1 codec has a very smooth, less grainy image that is visually appealing

They both support VC-1

+ 100% Backwards compatibility with DVD and excellent upscaling

This is a feature of HD-DVD? So BD player cannot play DVDs or upscale?

+ Consistent timed releases of hardware and software

No idea what this means. Clear it up.

I think its a good attempt to summarize the + and - of each format. I also believe that it is a great job of being unbiased. :) My only objection is that 1080i/p is listed as a + or - for formats. 1080i/60 looks the same as 1080p/60 if the encode is 1080p, the only advantages are between 24p and non-24p. HD DVD and BD will tie in terms of players capable in 2 weeks. Sammy's 1080p is 1080p in name only, plus a HD DVD player into a TV that can deinterlace 1080i and voila its the same damn thing.

One positive is the fact that replicators can simply make minimal changes and their DVD replication facilities become HD DVD replication facilities.

Also, another positive is that HD DVD replication facilities don't mind carrying porn. :)

To poster above,

cheaper production costs are a + whether they result in cheaper discs at the register or not. Right now Sony is subsidizing BD, but that won't last forever.

True both have VC-1 listed as capable and have discs that are VC-1 in both formats but HD DVDs are 90%+ VC-1 whereas the majority (WB the exception) are hesistant to use VC-1. Disney just started but clearly BD is pro-MPEG-2 ATM.

backwards compatibility is key and is a feature of HD DVD as it is the DVD forum's choice. Combos, whether flippers or not (single sided combos exist), are a huge asset to a format.

Upscaling on HD DVD players are generally considered better than those available on BD players. I know my HD-A1 upscales far better than the Sammy (Had them in home months ago).

Consistently timed releases means they don't delay as much as BD studios (both hardware and software). HD DVD titles have been delayed, but the frequency is FAR less than BD.

+Much cheaper disc production. Dual Layered discs (30gb) the standard

How much cheaper? 20%? 80%? Why do we care, are the movies cheaper?



HD DVD on average is cheaper to buy than Blu-ray. That's from my experience. And I'll bet it's the same with most. Sure, you can find good deals on both but HD DVD movies are cheaper as a whole.

+ VC-1 codec has a very smooth, less grainy image that is visually appealing

They both support VC-1


Yes, but VC-1 is far more consistent on HD DVD and thus gives HD DVD a more consistent "look".

+ 100% Backwards compatibility with DVD and excellent upscaling

This is a feature of HD-DVD? So BD player cannot play DVDs or upscale?

BD players don't play everything. I have a few DVDs that don't work on my PS3 or Samsung. This is a fact: Upscaling on HD DVD standalones are more consistent in quality. My Samsung's upscaling looks worse than my PS3 at 480p.

+ Consistent timed releases of hardware and software

No idea what this means. Clear it up.

HD DVD hasn't deviated from hardware and software release dates as much as Blu-ray. Simple as that. There's nothing worse than preordering something and being stuck. Sony Standalone for example.

BTW, even though my list actually comes off as more PRO- HD DVD than Blu-ray, look at my posts, I'm usually in the Blu-ray forum. I'm trying to be as unbiased as possible here.

Upscaling on HD DVD players are generally considered better than those available on BD players. I know my HD-A1 upscales far better than the Sammy (Had them in home months ago).

Does that have anything to do with the Blu-ray format? You are listing gen one hardware problems as a minus for BD? Blu-ray players will never upscale as well and will always have compatability iussues? Don't both players have the same laser for playing DVDs? I've never heard of movies that won't play in a BD player.

Remember all the BD FUD a few months ago? At least we are debating small difference now that we have real movies and players.

BD50 will never happen, they can't make them.
BD disc cost so much to make the movies will be $50 and games will be $70.
The PS3 will be a lousy player, no one buys a console to play movies.

+ on HD-DVD, No region coding. A movie title that is a studio exclusive for Blu-ray may still be available from an overseas studio and can still be played on an HD-DVD player.

For example, the Spanish Underworld:Evolution which is actually a Sony Pictures title in North America.

+ on HD-DVD, No region coding. A movie title that is a studio exclusive for Blu-ray may still be available from an overseas studio and can still be played on an HD-DVD player.

For example, the Spanish Underworld:Evolution which is actually a Sony Pictures title in North America.

I didn't put that in because all Blu-ray discs are region free if you buy a Samsung Blu-ray player w/o installing latest firmware. Also, most Blu-ray discs are not region coded.

Personally, I disagree on the point about the BD logo. I just don't find it appealing, and I prefer the HD DVD logo (even if it is just HD tacked on to the DVD logo).

It's just a logo though, and it doesn't matter. :)

+ Much cheaper disc production. Dual Layered discs (30gb) the standard

do you have the cost for both formats?



+ The name! HUGE plus!! No one is going to ask "What's a HD DVD?"

no, it is “I bought this DVD (says so on the case and it won’t play”


+ 100% Backwards compatibility with DVD and excellent upscaling
?

+ Consistent timed releases of hardware and software

you are the only one I know that is happy with HD DVDs none release of much SW

- Unfinished! Biggest gripe about the format. Lack of Java finalization prevents advanced Interactivity

not true. BD-J is done and it was before BD came out. It is just that not all feratures need to be supported by all players, but that is true with both formats

- Constant delayed hardware and software
not any worst then HD DVD

HD DVD on average is cheaper to buy than Blu-ray. That's from my experience. And I'll bet it's the same with most. Sure, you can find good deals on both but HD DVD movies are cheaper as a whole.

no MRSP is mostly the same. It is more studio dependent then anything else Disney Fox (even in DVD) tends to be a bit more expensive. And did you add the 5$ more if it is a hybrid? (could add that as a + in HD DVD -- if you think they are)

BD players don't play everything. I have a few DVDs that don't work on my PS3 or Samsung.

what movies? I have not had an issue yet with any DVD not playing

I didn't put that in because all Blu-ray discs are region free if you buy a Samsung Blu-ray player w/o installing latest firmware. Also, most Blu-ray discs are not region coded.


also HD DVD has RC on the table, so if it will or won't have RC is yet an unknown.

Right now they seem about the same to me. There really is no difference visibly and sonically between the two. I think the biggest advantage bluray has is the studio support. I felt compelled to buy a bluray player just because of the number of movies they would have that I couldn't get for my hd dvd. Most people won't care about all the stats and specs, they will just want to know what movies can the thing play. For example, when I got my PS 3 I asked my wife if she saw any difference between the two and she said no. She was just happy we could get disney movies in HD. The sofware will make the difference.

you are the only one I know that is happy with HD DVDs none release of much SW

I don't get this. According to DVD Empire there are 192 releases for HD and 211 for BD. That's hardly a huge difference. To say there is no software for HD is just wrong. They have about the same, he was just pointing out that BD has a history of not delivering on promised release dates.

Back to the original topic. I think you summed it up pretty well. Both have strengths and weaknesses. We'll see if they are enough for one to end up a clear winner or if both formats will survive.....or neither for that matter.

Doesn't HD DVD have a larger potential library than Blu-ray?

I disagree. Both formats colored cases can be good or bad. Take Corpse Bride for instance, it's coverart is mostly blue and looks terrific in a BD case. OTOH, look at Phantom Of The Opera which looks very good in an HD DVD case but very bad in a BD case. Thus I think using the color of the case as a plus is a mistake. It's really hit or miss from what I've seen.

I agree. Truthfully, this is hardly an issue but I kind of like the darker red or maroon whatever....to me it just blends in more. Also, Maroon=Texas A&M :)

I don't get this. According to DVD Empire there are 192 releases for HD and 211 for BD. That's hardly a huge difference. To say there is no software for HD is just wrong.

past is the past, what is on the slate for the future?

If one compares Universal's catalog to Sony, Disney and Lionsgate on iMDB, I believe Universal has twice as many titles. So in theory, HD DVD has more exclusives (more studios too, from what I hear).

You didn't mention lack of diversity amoung hardware in HD DVD.

You didn't mention lack of diversity amoung hardware in HD DVD.

I believe there are about a dozen different HD DVD players out there from RCA, LG, Toshiba, Samsung, HP, MS. Also you can add Onkyo, Meridian and a likely bunch of Chinese to the mix.

If one compares Universal's catalog to Sony, Disney and Lionsgate on iMDB, I believe Universal has twice as many titles. So in theory, HD DVD has more exclusives (more studios too, from what I hear).

2ch ran the numbers, you are wrong. You also forgot Fox and MGM

no MRSP is mostly the same. It is more studio dependent then anything else Disney Fox (even in DVD) tends to be a bit more expensive. And did you add the 5$ more if it is a hybrid? (could add that as a + in HD DVD -- if you think they are)

Format neutral studios charge the same for each format. Format exclusive studios generally (but not always) charge more for their discs. If we look at the $39.99 Universal titles vs the $39.99 Fox titles, we get combos + extras (usually) vs bare bones discs (usually). You might be paying the same price but you get more for your money with HD DVD.

The guy I work with has a 360 and I must have explained to him 10 times that you cannot play HD DVDs in the 360. He thinks that because he can get HD from his games that he should be able to get HD movies too.
Format neutral studios charge the same for each format. Format exclusive studios generally (but not always) charge more for their discs. If we look at the $39.99 Universal titles vs the $39.99 Fox titles, we get combos + extras (usually) vs bare bones discs (usually). You might be paying the same price but you get more for your money with HD DVD.
You get better audio on the Fox release. Lossless vs. lossy.

The guy I work with has a 360 and I must have explained to him 10 times that you cannot play HD DVDs in the 360. He thinks that because he can get HD from his games that he should be able to get HD movies too.

Can't he download MSFT's HD movies w/o the 360 add-on and thus get HD movies??

Format neutral studios charge the same for each format. Format exclusive studios generally (but not always) charge more for their discs. If we look at the $39.99 Universal titles vs the $39.99 Fox titles, we get combos + extras (usually) vs bare bones discs (usually). You might be paying the same price but you get more for your money with HD DVD.

why does every HD DVD supporter care more about SD then HD?

I disagree. Both formats colored cases can be good or bad. Take Corpse Bride for instance, it's coverart is mostly blue and looks terrific in a BD case. OTOH, look at Phantom Of The Opera which looks very good in an HD DVD case but very bad in a BD case. Thus I think using the color of the case as a plus is a mistake. It's really hit or miss from what I've seen.
NYG, I can't see how cases would be a plus or minus. Maybe it's me but how many people care if the case and artwork stink? I thought we bought movies to watch the movies. I for one will never not buy a movie based on the case color and artwork.

Edit: forgot to add that this is for mainstream movies. XXX movies are a different story (gotta see who's in the movie :D )

NYG, I can't see how cases would be a plus or minus. Maybe it's me but how many people care if the case and artwork stink? I thought we bought movies to watch the movies. I for one will never not buy a movie based on the case color and artwork.

Edit: forgot to add that this is for mainstream movies. XXX movies are a different story (gotta see who's in the movie :D )

I care. I love the same size/color/height uniformness. My SDs look like New York City Skyline with all the different sizes and shapes. When Youve got 3 bookshelves with 800 dvds in your living room you want them to look nice.

why does every HD DVD supporter care more about SD then HD?
Most HD DVD supporters care about value.

not true. BD-J is done and it was before BD came out. It is just that not all feratures need to be supported by all players, but that is true with both formats


hd-dvd does require every player to be able to do the secondary video decoder, network capability and persistent storage. So there is a difference in whats required from the players. While that doesnt directly translate to bdj/hdi the secondary video decoded being mandatory especially is a big advantage for hd-dvd right now because there are movies that are actually using their interactivity layer. And as far as I have read nobody has done the same thing for bd-j yet (in terms of replicating IME into bluray movies)

What really sealed the deal for me with the dual tuner thing was king kong.... after watching that with u-control enabled everything else pales in comparison.


They both support VC-1


There is a difference between supporting advanced codecs and actually using them (is there even a hd-dvd release at all thats not vc1... i cant think of one off hand but i could be wrong)... That is one thing I am glad about with the war is had bluray come out and won from the get go we would still be dealing with mpeg2 and crappy transfers from sony IMO. They wouldnt have had any pressure to make it look better. Thats about the only thing good about the war though.



As for the initial list i more or less agree with it (and it is fair to both sides)

(is there even a hd-dvd release at all thats not vc1... i cant think of one off hand but i could be wrong)...

Chronos is MPEG-2 (1080i/60 or maybe 1080p/24, I'm more confused as I never got a direct answer). Big thread about that issue. I got it coming in the mail...

I care. I love the same size/color/height uniformness. My SDs look like New York City Skyline with all the different sizes and shapes. When Youve got 3 bookshelves with 800 dvds in your living room you want them to look nice.
So you're saying you will not buy the spiderman movies if you don't like the box? I don't see the relevance of this as people buy the movie for the movie, not the box. People already know what movie they want to see regardless of how the box looks. As for size, aren't they all the same size format wise? SD is bigger but for blu ray and HD DVD they are the same size. And since I have both I don't have to squint to see which movie goes into which player because of box color.

I care. I love the same size/color/height uniformness. My SDs look like New York City Skyline with all the different sizes and shapes. When Youve got 3 bookshelves with 800 dvds in your living room you want them to look nice.
How bizzarre. I have that many discs, and its a non-issue for me. The few exceptions, are the cases that are too big to fit on my shelves (I have 2). If it bothers you that much, why don't you just buy some extra disc boxes, and put everything in the same type of box? It shouldn't be a reason NOT to buy a movie.
J

Can't he download MSFT's HD movies w/o the 360 add-on and thus get HD movies??
He knows the quality of the high def discs is better, but funnily enough I did suggest this to him today as a temporary alternative.

Most HD DVD supporters care about value.

no value means comparing all the stuff. In Value BD wins without raising a finger.

And as far as I have read nobody has done the same thing for bd-j yet (in terms of replicating IME into bluray movies)

maybe you should stop reading posts by people with an agenda to misinform and looking for yourself. Many BD movies do have IME.

PiP commentary (even though better with two bit streams) has been done in DVD for years using just one. And some BDs have made it that way. Other movies have more of an in movie extra feel. For example you can pick at any time (more fun at the beginning) to include some cut scenes or commentaries. As the movie is playing it just branches out at the right time. So you tailor make before the movie starts if you want the featurette or not.

league o extraordinary gentlemen even includes a game

I know for most vocal HD DVD supporters the only thing that counts is that HD DVD can do Pip with two streams, but once you open your eyes you see that with extras BD has done more experimenting with it.

(is there even a hd-dvd release at all thats not vc1

yes, a few but not many.

Before getting into the point-by-point details, I'd suggest one MAJOR change if you're trying to be at all serious about this: many of the advantages/disadvantages listed are purely temporary in nature, there are format characteristics that can and will change and there are others that are not likely to change.

HD-DVD

+ Much cheaper disc production. Dual Layered discs (30gb) the standard
Disc production costs are a tiny fraction of the retail price of the product and have negligable impact on the end user. Even in small replication batches the difference is ~30 cents for a single-layered specimen of each. Large batches will cut the difference even further.

"Dual layered" isn't a benefit by itself. Switching layers takes time and offers no inherent benefit other than the potential for more storage. How much content do the discs actually contain is the real question? It's not surprising that dual-layered HD DVDs are more common when anything beyond 15GB of content REQUIRES another layer on HD DVD, but only >25GB mandates another layer on Blu-ray.
+ VC-1 codec has a very smooth, less grainy image that is visually appealing
The CODEC isn't mandated by either format. It's up to the studio to make the decision, and we haven't seen a single example of a title available on both formats where different CODECs were chosen and this resulted in an obvious difference in PQ.
+ The name! HUGE plus!! No one is going to ask "What's a HD DVD?"
No, but we have seen examples of people thinking that upscaling players, which output HD signals, are enough to play HD DVDs. Still, the name has potential marketing upside but zero benefit to the end user.
+ HDi Interactivity. Really great stuff. PIP commentary is sweet!
Not that I'm a big fan of interactive content - it's all too often a way to avoid providing meaningful content, but I can see this being attractive to some. It's one of those differentiators that will disappear in time, though. Warner has commited to delivering the same experience using BDJ, for example.
+ Red cases - does not distract from movie artwork
As others have stated this is purely a matter of preference. The only neutral choices would be white, black, or shades of gray. Red and blue both complement some artwork and clash with others.
+ HD DVD on top spine. Lines up very well with other HD DVDs.
Am I missing something? The Blu-ray logo lines up well with other Blu-ray titles, too. In fact, they line up pretty well with one another given their identical placement and size.
+ 100% Backwards compatibility with DVD and excellent upscaling
Not a benefit of the format, but rather of a particular player. Most Blu-ray players share this characteristic, and the only one that doesn't (PS3) may well be updated to do so in the future.
+ Consistent timed releases of hardware and software
This is clearly not an inherent benefit of the format, and is entirely debatable. Wasn't Toshiba contractually obligated to start shipping in 2005 - which they missed by months? Both parties are pretty guilty on this front, and the delays will be ancient history by the time most people consider either format.
- Lack of Lossless audio. Only a handful of True HD tracks. Huge Minus! Most if not all titles should be lossless!
Again, not a format issue unless it's due to lack of space or bandwidth. I'd expect more titles to have lossless audio over time as more consumers have the hardware to support it.
Blu-ray

- Dual Layered discs slowly becoming the standard, but not yet.
See above. If the content doesn't fill the disc, there's no point in going dual-layered.
- Lack of extras on most discs
Nothing to do with the format, everything to do with the market. We'll see this change over time if and when consumers start being picky about their purchases due to lack of extras.

As someone's boss, I always love a litany of excuses....

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9610330#post9610330

Joone "Blu-ray costs so much more than HD-DVD."

He seems to know..

IGN: So was the experience of replicating HD-DVD much easier?

Joone: Much easier. HD-DVD is producer friendly. You can use mostly the same manufacturing and maintain the same pricing. It's easier for everyone to get into it. For comparison, a Blu-ray disc comes in at about $2.50 replicated from a $5,000 glass-master. HD-DVDs cost about $1.10 and a $2,500 glass-master. For me to duplicate 1,000 pieces, one will cost $10,000 and the other will cost $5,000. For such a new format HD-DVD is much easier to get into.

So, who was saying that wasn't an unbiased + for HD DVD????

He seems to know.. where did you get that? considering his big complaint is that he can't get a replicator to give him a quote for BD. He also blamed Sony for replicators not wanting to do buisness with him and said Sony does not allow porn when other studios have found replicators that will