They can't come down while they are still in use. The most likely means they will stand for about another year.

That is true, but the discussion was how long it would take when they do come down, not when.

I feel another round of betting coming on... when will they start taking them down, spring/summer of 2009, or spring/summer of 2010...? :)

Hmmm, I guess someone is deciding what is off-topic in this thread. Several posts yesterday regarding the Ostrow article were deleted. Maybe they were considered suspected terrorist communication and the NSA got them. LOL!

I think AVS had a problem yesterday and lost a bunch of posts. I posted about my projector in a different forum and today the post is missing.

I think AVS had a problem yesterday and lost a bunch of posts. I posted about my projector in a different forum and today the post is missing.

Yep, major server failure. Anything done after the 5am backup yesterday was lost.

That is true, but the discussion was how long it would take when they do come down, not when.

I feel another round of betting coming on... when will they start taking them down, spring/summer of 2009, or spring/summer of 2010...? :)

Oh! Just guessing. Three months to dismantle all the old towers starting late March 2009.

--- CHAS

Wouldn't want to be working on any towers today. Seems to be a little breezy by the foothills.

http://www.9news.com/news/top-article.aspx?storyid=85919

Haven't you been paying attention?

They're very much active, and around half of the recent KUSA story on the new tower was devoted to giving sCARE's point of view.

You're the one not paying attention... ;)

You're replying to something I said over a year ago, 1/24/07.

Hi all, been lurking here for a while. Read thru most all the whole thread -- my poor eyes! Must say I enjoyed it all and learned a lot.

I too am anxiously awaiting the great tower on lookout. I can see it from my office window at work in Golden every day during the week (it goes slower when you watch it all the time I think). But I actually live up north east of Ft. Lupton. Can't get the digital signals frm RP but all the others seem to come it quite well. I get 11-1, KDEV which as someone pointed out runs some old shows from the 60-70s. I think I am getting it frm the back side of my antenna from Ft. Collins--correct me if I am wrong. Anyway it has been a good signal when I check but noticed lately that it had no sound. Has been silent for several days. Not sure what's up. Anybody else notice that?

This brings up a question I thought someone out there might know. I was trying to get CC - closed captioned or "closed captioning" to display on my newer TV and it seems that this channel does not provide them. Is there a legal requirement for stations to provide this? My folks in WY. tell me that their local affiliate with Fox (KFNB) does not provide closed captioning yet all the other stations do. They have a hard time understanding the audio without it and have not gotten any answers as to why the station would not provide them.

Is it any different with a digital signal vs analog? Does the digital signal provide it the same way? I just figured that with all the governmental handicap laws and requirements on businesses that surely CC was one requirement for broadcasters.

thanks for reading ..

I can't address the CC issue directly as I don't think I've ever used CC.

Regarding KDEV, this station has not sent out any PSIP info since, as far as I can tell, they went on the air. As a result, they have no info regarding station ID, remapping info - they're supposed to show up as channel 33-1, or program info. If the station can't do some basic PSIP, I would suspect that CC is way beyond their capabilities. Everytime I want to watch this channel - usually for the Wild, Wild, West - I have to watch it in my basement since the TV down there is the only one that will tune the channel since the PSIP info is lacking.

I can get the channel on an LP analog locally, channel 39, which I suspect you can't receive in Ft. Lupton, but since I've converted all of my TV's to digital only, this doesn't do me much good.

A couple of weeks ago, I emailed their attorney of record per their FCC filed documents and asked them to address the PSIP issue. PSIP is required to be sent by digital stations. A couple of days later, I noticed the sound went out on the station and for the past few days I can't even get their signal. Hopefully, this is a good sign that they are working on the PSIP issue.

Hope that helps.

Here is a link to closed captioning info from the FCC with information on how to file a complaint about any problems.
http://www.fcc.gov/cgb/consumerfacts/closedcaption.html

Thanks Rory for the quick reply. I will review the FCC site on closed captioning and see what is the best action to take. Thanks, milehighmike, It will be interesting to see if you get a response to your letter.

A couple of days later, I noticed the sound [on KDEV-DT] went out on the station and for the past few days I can't even get their signal.

Sound is back on KDEV-DT as of this morning (12 Feb 2008).

Hopefully, this is a good sign that they are working on the PSIP issue.

No PSIP data yet, although the station is broadcasting its identifier now. It used to be just "UNKNOWN11#0."

Also, the level of macroblocking on motion seems to be a bit higher now. I'm getting 73% signal on my MythTV rig here in Fort Collins.


Jim McCauley

I've tried to read through the last pages of this thread but I can't seem to find my answer. I just moved into Saddle Rock Ridge, right of of Versailles (it's just north west of the Smoky Hills/470 intersection). I seem to get all the main stations fine, but I can't get KCNC. I've looked at antennaweb and it should come in fine with some of the others.

I live in a two story house and we're near the top of a local ridge (I can see downtown). The TV (LG 32" LCD TV - over a year old, although I think it has the fifth gen tuner) is on the first floor, with just a cheap rabbit ear and loop antenna with separate UHF and VHF amplifier gain knobs. I currently get KWGN, KRMA, KMGH, KUSA, KDVR, and a couple of other minor stations. I get absolutely no signal on what should be KCNC. Is the problem mine or is there something I don't know about?

I get absolutely no signal on what should be KCNC. Is the problem mine or is there something I don't know about?

There's something about KCNC-DT that just makes it harder to receive.

I can use "rabbit ears" to pick up KMGH-DT and KUSA-DT here in Louisville as long as they're pointed in the general direction of RP.

But KCNC-DT won't lock in unless the antenna is aimed precisely - a few degrees either way won't affect my reception of other RP stations but make the difference between a lock and no signal for KCNC-DT.

Try moving your antenna a few degrees back and forth and see if it doesn't pop in for you.

There's something about KCNC-DT that just makes it harder to receive.

I think that's correct. I have a small Samsung hooked to the ubiquitous Silver Sensor in my wife's bathroom (I know, I know) pointed to RP. 2, 7, 9, the 12s and 31 lock in fine. 4-1 is MIA.

Oh well, just a few months until I can rotate that antenna 180 degrees!

Is anyone in east Denver able to get KRMADT OTA with an indoor antenna?

KRMA has had this message on their site (since about January?)
"KRMA-DT (Denver-area digital channel) is currently at low power. We are working on this problem and hope to have it back to full power as soon as possible. This will only affect over-the-air digital channel viewers."
That may explain your problems. Usually I can get it with my indoor DB-2 antenna (in Louisville, if I aim it correctly), but ever since KRMA has had this message up on their site, it's been totally out.

KRMA has had this message on their site (since about January?)
"KRMA-DT (Denver-area digital channel) is currently at low power. We are working on this problem and hope to have it back to full power as soon as possible. This will only affect over-the-air digital channel viewers."
That may explain your problems. Usually I can get it with my indoor DB-2 antenna (in Louisville, if I aim it correctly), but ever since KRMA has had this message up on their site, it's been totally out.

FYI: I first noticed the message on 12/11/2007, although I think the problem dates back to a few days before Thanksgiving.

Thought everyone would be interested in the FCC Form 387 filing by KCNC, of which the quote below is an excerpt:
As the Commission is aware, for many years zoning litigation blocked construction of a
multi-user tower on Lookout Mountain in Jefferson County, Colorado, on which the
digital facilities of KCNC-TV, and three other Denver television stations (collectively,
“Lake Cedar Group’), will be located.
Despite the enactment of federal legislation authorizing construction of the tower despite
“any applicable State or local land use or condemnation laws or regulations,” an order of
the Jefferson County District Court enjoining the applicable local authority from issuing
necessary permits for construction of the tower, and Lake Cedar Group from building it,
remained in effect until the zoning litigation was finally dismissed on April 16, 2007.
Construction of the tower commenced shortly thereafter, and remains in progress.
KCNC-TV currently expects to meet its deadline of May 18, 2008 for operation of its full
authorized facilities.
The anticipated timeline for completion of KCNC’s facilities is as follows:
March 1, 2008 - Erection of the tower structure to support the new main and auxiliary
DTV antennas for stations KCNC-TV, KMGH-TV, KTVD and KUSA-TV will be
completed.
March 3, 2008 - KCNC-TV will apply for an STA to operate at approximate 350 kW
ERP utilizing the new KCNC-TV main DTV antenna on Lookout Mountain. It is
anticipated that this operation would commence on April 15, 2008.
March 15, 2008 - The new main and auxiliary DTV antennas for stations KCNC-TV,
KMGH-TV, KTVD and KUSA-TV will be delivered to the Lookout Mountain tower site.
March 30, 2008 - The new main and auxiliary DTV antennas for stations KCNC-TV,
KMGH-TV, KTVD and KUSA-TV will be installed on the tower.
March 18, 2008 - The auxiliary DTV transmitter for KCNC-TV and the outdoor
equipment for the KCNC-TV main DTV transmitter will be delivered, and installation of
this equipment will commence.
April 15, 2008 - The indoor components of the KCNC-TV main DTV transmitter will be
delivered and installation of this equipment will commence.
April 15, 2008 - KCNC-TV will commence STA authorized DTV operations at 350 kW
ERP utilizing the new KCNC-TV main DTV antenna on Lookout Mountain (373 meters
HAAT). This will be an interim operation to increase the coverage area of KCNC-DT
from its current low-power STA authorized facilities of 11 kW at 177 meters HAAT, and
to test the newly installed DTV antenna, transmission line and multi-station combiner
system.
May 15, 2008 - KCNC-TV will commence DTV operations with its full, authorized DTV
facilities.

I think the above answers some questions regarding when the tower will be done and how everything else is progressing. When's the BBQ?

As a side note, the previous couple of posts refer to continuing problems with KRMA's signal. I've noticed over the past few days that my signal strength has gone up to what it was when KRMA was on RP. Could they have switched back to RP and kept it their little secret?

If April 15, 2008 is the date for first broadcast DTV transmissions from Lookout, it would appear ktmglen 4/18/08 is the winner of the pool. Maybe the other stations will beat them to the date.

If April 15, 2008 is the date for first broadcast DTV transmissions from Lookout, it would appear ktmglen 4/18/08 is the winner of the pool. Maybe the other stations will beat them to the date.

I thought the pool was for the first full power transmission (i.e., KCNC plans 5/15/08)? While it is possible that one of the stations will throw the switch for a low power test on 4/15/08 or earlier, based on what we've seen before and recently, getting to the planned broadcast capability, stability, and consistency may take considerably longer. I think the planned 5/15/08 date is more consistent with the intended meaning of the pool dates.

5/15 means milehighmike
a little delay and it could be yours truly
regardless, when's the BBQ?

5/15 means milehighmike
a little delay and it could be yours truly
regardless, when's the BBQ?

I would think it would make the most sense to wait for full power transmission before we plan the BBQ. That way we save the cost of the propane and can use the radiation from the towers to cook the burgers and dogs. We can even invite Deb to watch things cook.
:D

I'll be the first to admit that I'm no expert on digital television. Despite a fair amount of reading, I still can't figure out the structure and composition of PSIP data and how EIT (program information) is embedded within it.

I wrote to the nice fellows at KBDI, telling them that I get reasonably good signal and performance from all three channels on their multiplex, but I get no EIT data at all. They say that they are transmitting it and that it is showing up on their off-air monitors.

Are you folks receiving EIT data?

I wonder if my setup (a Linux PC running MythTV) is somehow misconfigured. I get EIT data from some stations, but not all.


Jim McCauley

I'll be the first to admit that I'm no expert on digital television. Despite a fair amount of reading, I still can't figure out the structure and composition of PSIP data and how EIT (program information) is embedded within it.

I wrote to the nice fellows at KBDI, telling them that I get reasonably good signal and performance from all three channels on their multiplex, but I get no EIT data at all. They say that they are transmitting it and that it is showing up on their off-air monitors.

Are you folks receiving EIT data?

I wonder if my setup (a Linux PC running MythTV) is somehow misconfigured. I get EIT data from some stations, but not all.

Jim McCauley

Can't get KBDI at my location here in Boulder, the mountains are in the way. Anyone else?

I just went thru all of the channels I receive and checked for PSIP info:

Full info - channel ID, remapped channel, program name, time remaining, program description - KWGN, KUSA (9-1 only)

Same as above but W/O program description - KCNC, KRMA, KMGH, KUSA (9-2 only), KBDI (all 3 sub-channels), KTFD, KTVD, KFCT, KDVR

Only channel ID and remapped channel - KDEN

No PSIP info at all - KRMT

I also get KWHD but I have to turn my antenna to receive it and I didn't do it to gather this info but I recollect they only put out channel ID and remapping info. I also used to get a strong signal from KDEV but I haven't been able to receive this channel for a couple of weeks.

Hope that helps.

As a side note, the previous couple of posts refer to continuing problems with KRMA's signal. I've noticed over the past few days that my signal strength has gone up to what it was when KRMA was on RP. Could they have switched back to RP and kept it their little secret?

No. :D

Seriously, I got KRMA-DT perfectly with my antenna pointed at RP but have always had a signal strength of 0 from their Morrison transmitter.

6-1 is still 0 for me.

I'll be the first to admit that I'm no expert on digital television. Despite a fair amount of reading, I still can't figure out the structure and composition of PSIP data and how EIT (program information) is embedded within it.

I wrote to the nice fellows at KBDI, telling them that I get reasonably good signal and performance from all three channels on their multiplex, but I get no EIT data at all. They say that they are transmitting it and that it is showing up on their off-air monitors.

Are you folks receiving EIT data?

I wonder if my setup (a Linux PC running MythTV) is somehow misconfigured. I get EIT data from some stations, but not all.


Jim McCauley

I just checked all 3 KBDI-DT transmissions on two different tuners and HDTVs. Both provided everything but detailed information about the on-going program. Program titles, times, etc., were provided, but when I click on detailed information, I get the statement that no detailed program information is available.

Is the detailed program information what you are concerned about or are you not even getting the program name and time?

I just visited the KRMA website http://www.krma.org and they have taken town the notice that KRMA-DT is running at low power.
I did not notice anything on the main page that documents any actions they may have taken which they believe to have improved the situation.
My reception has been intermittent since about Thanksgiving, so that fact that I can see it right now does not prove anything.

I don't think this has been posted here yet, but TV Fool has recently updated their coverage maps and OTA charts to show both current and after transition projections: http://www.tvfool.com/index.php?option=com_frontpage&Itemid=75

Is the detailed program information what you are concerned about or are you not even getting the program name and time?

No detailed program info, nor any program name. All I get is "Unknown."

I _do_ get all three channel IDs:
KBDI-DT
KBDI-DC
KBDI-WV

Must be something weird with my MythTV config...

Jim McCauley

I finally scanned KRMA-DT successfully. I also got the V-me channel on their multiplex. Only 50% signal and _very_ blocky video, but it's a start.

Channel IDs received, but no program name or info.

I too noticed that RMPBS took down its website notice about broadcasting at reduced power. I hope that they are still not yet at Full Authorized...


Jim McCauley

No detailed program info, nor any program name. All I get is "Unknown."

I _do_ get all three channel IDs:
KBDI-DT
KBDI-DC
KBDI-WV

Must be something weird with my MythTV config...

Jim McCauley
I don't have anything to specifically look at PSIP data but I did decide to use the Guide function on my VISIO VX32L to see what information I get on the digital channels I receive in Louisville.

For the following stations I get the Program Name and Program Details for Some of the Programs. I presume that means that they have the PSIP set up properly to process the details, but the information is not available for some of the programs.
2-1 KWGN-DT
4-1 KWGN-DT
6-1 KRMA-DT
7-1 KRMA-HD
9-1 KUSA-DT
12-1 KBDI-DT
12-2 KBDI-DC
14-1 KTFD-DT
31-1 KDVR-DT
53-1 KWHD-DT

For the following stations, I get the Program Name but No Program Details.
12-3 KBDI-WV
20-1 KTVD-DT

For the following stations the Program Name field is always the same such as "DTV Program" and there are no Program Details.
6-2 V-me
50-1 KCEC-DT

I did not bother with the 40-?? KRMT silliness.

While I was at it, I looked at the time reported by the stations. I suspect that none of them are locked to WWV or a similar time standard, but most of them are accurate to a wind-up Big Ben standard. They seem to be within 3 minutes of WWV.

6-1 KRMA-DT and 6-2 V-me were about 15 minutes slow. That means that my TV displays the previous Program Name for the first 15 minutes of the next program.
7-1 KMGH-HD was about 6 minutes fast. In this case the Program Name display gets switched 6 minutes early.
50-1 KCEC-DT was about 2 hours fast.

In what I would call a pleasant experience with one of the stations, a few months ago I did notice that the time on 2-1 KWGN-DT was way off. I called the station and the operator actually connected me to someone in broadcast engineering. That person said he would check on it. A few minutes later the time was within a minute or so.

I find that program details are hit or miss. Usually the prime time, major network shows will have program details, while other programming during the day is a sometimes affair.

Back when I received KRMA-DT and on those exceptional days when my temporaray omni-antenna on my bedroom HDTV picks up a KRMA-DT signal, the on-going program is almost always listed as DTV Program. I believe the only station more clueless than KRMA-DT regarding DTV operations is KRMT-DT.

I find that program details are hit or miss. Usually the prime time, major network shows will have program details, while other programming during the day is a sometimes affair.

Back when I received KRMA-DT and on those exceptional days when my temporaray omni-antenna on my bedroom HDTV picks up a KRMA-DT signal, the on-going program is almost always listed as DTV Program. I believe the only station more clueless than KRMA-DT regarding DTV operations is KRMT-DT.

In general, I agree with you on your hit or miss statement. That is why I said that there were Program Details for "Some of the programs" for most of the stations.
The situation for 6-1 may have improved somewhat since you were last able to check. I just used the Guide function on my VIZIO VX32L to look at 6-1 KRMA-DT. It showed 15 programs between 2PM today and 1:30AM tomorrow. All had a Program Detail entry. Most were some little entry, such as the name of the city the food reviewer was visiting, but at least the field was populated. However, the time problem means that the Program Info displayed by my TV is wrong for the first 15 minutes of a show.
Again, there is nothing for 6-2 V-me.

I was just looking at the Form 387 Application for KBDI-DT. The transition plan is quoted below.
Exhibit 4
Description: KBDI DTV TRANSITION PLAN

OUR PLAN IS TO CONVERT OUR CURRENT ANALOG CHANNEL 12 HARRIS PLATINUM TRANSMITTER TO A DIGITAL CHANNEL 13 TRANSMITTER.

WE HAVE RECEIVED A VALID QUOTE FROM HARRIS FOR THIS CONVERSION AND HAVE AN APPROVED DDF GRANT TO HELP PAY FOR THE CONVERSION AND A CHANNEL 13 ANTENNA.

FOLLOWING OUR DISCUSSIONS WITH HARRIS REGARDING A TRANSITION TIMETABLE WE HAVE DEVELOPED TWO SCENARIOS FOR THE CONVERSION.

THE FIRST IS DEPENDENT ON OUR ABILITY TO SECURE FCC APPROVAL FOR A LICENSE EXTENSION ON OUR CURRENT CHANNEL 38 DTV TRANSMITTER. IN THIS SCENARIO WE WOULD CONVERT THE HARRIS TO DTV CHANNEL 13 WITHIN 6 MONTHS AFTER FEBRUARY 17, 2009, CONTINUING TO TRANSMIT ON CHANNEL 38 IN THE INTERIM, WHILE AT THE SAME TIME CEASING BROADCAST OF CHANNEL 12 ANALOG. TESTING WOULD BE COMPLETED DURING THE SIX MONTH EXTENSION.

IN THE SECOND SCENARIO, WE WOULD BEGIN THE HARRIS CONVERSION IN THE FALL OF 2008. THIS WOULD REQUIRE THAT WE TAKE ONE OF OUR CABINETS OFF-LINE AND OPERATE OUR ANALOG TRANSMITTER AT REDUCED POWER UNTIL FEBRUARY 17, 2009 AT WHICH TIME WE WOULD COMPLETE THE CONVERSION AND CEASE BROADCASTS ON BOTH ANALOG CHANNEL 12 AND DTV 38. TESTING WOULD BE COMPLETED FEBRUARY 17, 2009.

It will be interesting to see what the plans are for 9-1 KUSA-DT and 7-1 KMGH-HD since their transition frequencies are UHF and their final frequencies are VHF. I suspect that will stay with their RP transmitters until February 2009, since I do not see how they could justify new UHF transmitters for Lookout Mountain that would be used for less than a year.

I would think that 20-1 KTVD-DT would be in a position to follow a plan very similar to 4-1 KCNC-DT.

It will also be interesting to see what the 6-1 KRMA-DT plan is.

The FCC 387 form indicates that the due date is 2/19/2008. Hopefully, all the local stations will do electronic submissions.

KBDI's Form 387 is, in my opinion, not going to fly with the FCC. The burden of taking an appropriate action is on the TV station. KBDI's intent, apparently, is that they want the FCC to make the decision regarding the appropriate action to take. It appears they haven't made up their mind yet, which they are required to do by 2-17-08. I'm not going to get into a long post as to why, but I think KBDI must follow their second choice per the Third Periodic Review of DTV.

I posted this just after the Third Periodic Review was issued back around the first of the year, but I'll repeat some of it now.

KCNC will, as their Form 387 states, be transmitting with their post-transition facilities (2-17-09 permanent facilities) by 5-18-08, as required, albeit at reduced power. KTVD is in the same situation as KCNC (permanent digital channel same as STA channel) and must do the same although they could be at full power but probably won't be.

Stations that have not fully built out their post-transition facilities and are changing channels from their STA's (KMGH going from 17 to 7; KUSA going from 16 to 9) are not required to perform any more work in completing their STA's to full power. KMGH already has an exemption which allows it to wait until 2-17-09 to turn on full power digital. KUSA will get the same treatment. Look for both of these stations to remain at low power from RP until 2-17-09 when they flash cut to channels 7 and 9. They will probably cease analog operations just before 2-17-09 so they can convert their analog transmitters to digital. They can do this up to 30 days before 2-17-09.

KWGN is (my opinion from reading the Third Periodic Review) required to be full power on 5-18-08. They have been claiming, apparently, that RF radiation has prevented them from going full power due to their analog operation. Their Form 387 will be interesting. They may opt to reduce analog power and increase their digital power to a full 1000 kW on 5-18-08. They are supposed to be at digital full power on 5-18-08.

Another interesting situation is KRMA. They fall under the rule that they need to replicate analog coverage via their digital signal by 5-18-08 unless they want to give up interference protection. They are fully licensed at 115 kW so they have apparently opted to give up interference protection. But for them, that's probably not a big deal since there aren't any nearby PBS stations and they can opt to apply for increased power and coverage on 2-18-09. I look for them to stay at 115 kW and to shut off analog on 2-17-09.

Stations that are fully licensed and really need to do nothing other than turn analog off by 2-17-09 are KTFD, KFCT, KDEN, KDVR, KRMT, and KWHD. KDVR can opt to increase their power to 1000 kW. I believe all of the Springs stations are in the same situation.

For those of you who receive Cheyenne stations, KDEV (digital 11, analog 33 out of Cheyenne) has requested to turn off their analog signal immediately. KLWY, analog 27, never got a digital STA up and running. They will flash cut digital on channel 27 on 2-17-09. KGWN , analog 5, digital 30, is fully licensed and merely needs to shut off its analog by 2-17-09.

There are several analog LP stations, such as channels 23, 27, 57, etc. that have CP's for digital facilities. There are also several in the Ft. Collins area. I don't believe these stations will go on the air in digital until after 2-17-09. There is no analog shutdown date for LP's. Some, like channel 27 (owned by McGraw-Hill ala channel 7) will operate
their digital channel on a currently occupied digital channel. Channel 27 has a CP for channel 17 which, ironically, KMGH now occupies and will until 2-17-09.

Finally, I have no idea what is going to happen to KPXC, analog 59. If I had to guess, I think they will go dark on 2-17-09 and finally get their digital up sometime thereafter. They will probably lose interference protection but out here in the wide open West, that probably isn't a concern since there aren't any other ION stations for hundreds of miles.

Finally, Forms 387 are due from all full power stations on 2-17-08. Form 387 is an electronic form only, no paper. The Form 387 filings are usually posted on the FCC web site by 10:00 PM to 11:00 PM each day, so we should be able to see what each station's "plans" are by Monday night.

I didn't want to add this to my previous post since the subject matter is different.

I watched Colorado Getaways on KCNC at 6:30 PM on Saturday night. It was in HD. Does anyone know why KCNC can do this show in HD but can't do, for example, re-runs of CSI-Miami (on at 10:30 PM) in HD?

Good Qustion! And why can't they do their local news in Hi-Def?

Just notice that KDEV - 11-1 not only has sound back now but also program name and info (for the first time). Problem is the name and info were not correct. At least it looks like they are working on it. Maybe milehighmike's email to their attorney may have done some good. I did notice a few glitches in picture and sound every so often.

I'm presuming that KDEV's attorney did act on my email. In it, I also pointed out an error on their Form 387 which stated that as soon as they receive permission to shut off their analog signal, they will also shut off their digital signal. Their Form 387 was amended a couple of days later.

I did receive a signal from KDEV this AM but it disappeared again. Their second sub-channel was missing, though. They were broadcasting some music videos at the time. They still don't remap to 33-1 and I didn't see any info other than their call sign.

But, you're probably right. They appear to be working on the situation. At least I hope so.

Good Qustion! And why can't they do their local news in Hi-Def?

It's rather expensive to convert all the studio equipment and switchers to HD for, I suspect they'd say, no real benefit.

Colorado Getaways is easy - all you'd need to produce it in HD are a couple HDCAM cameras and a copy of Final Cut Pro on a Mac, and you're ready to go.

Total investment to take something like that HD would probably be under $25K, where you're talking at least ten times that for a studio HD camera for the news.

Meanwhile, is CSI: Miami even fed from the syndicator in HD? I don't know of any station showing any network rerun in syndication in HD.

I don't have anything to specifically look at PSIP data but I did decide to use the Guide function on my VISIO VX32L to see what information I get on the digital channels I receive in Louisville.

Still impressive, as I get zero signal from KRMA-DT or KBDI-DT in Louisville unless I point an antenna directly at Morrison (and then only KRMA-DT), losing reception from RP in the process.

Never have seen a peep of KBDI-DT from Squaw.

OT: HD-DVD is dead.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/BUSINESS/02/18/toshiba.hddvd.ap/index.html

HD DVD is dead, Blu-Ray is alive and well. Looks like I can go get one of those players now, as most of the country was waiting to see what happened.

HD DVD is dead, Blu-Ray is alive and well. Looks like I can go get one of those players now, as most of the country was waiting to see what happened.

OffT
Like you said, HD DVD is the one that is dead. I am like you, I didn't have a dog in that hunt, I was waiting to see who won, although the fact that Blue Ray has more capacity seems like a victory for the consumer in the long run. I have spent waay too much money over the years buying new technology with great promise that turned out to be a bust and then get left with an expensive paperweight. I finally got it right this time. :)
_____

OnT
As for local news in HD, I guess I would have thought that KCNC and KMGH would have at the very least targeted HD for about the same time the full power signals come on line. They have been behind KUSA on the HD front for several years now but I assume were able to justify it by claiming that very few people were getting local HD anyway. That excuse goes away in a few more months, even if they were ignoring the number of people with cable and satellite locals. Frankly, I am REALLY surprised the stations have waited this long.

Don't be surprised if they NEVER do local news in HD. Here in Raleigh-Durham NC (birthplace of HDTV NEWS), we still have only 1 company (Capital Broadcasting), who owns CBS and FOX, doing local news in HD.

KBDI's Form 387 is, in my opinion, not going to fly with the FCC. The burden of taking an appropriate action is on the TV station. KBDI's intent, apparently, is that they want the FCC to make the decision regarding the appropriate action to take. It appears they haven't made up their mind yet, which they are required to do by 2-17-08. I'm not going to get into a long post as to why, but I think KBDI must follow their second choice per the Third Periodic Review of DTV.
...
Stations that have not fully built out their post-transition facilities and are changing channels from their STA's (KMGH going from 17 to 7; KUSA going from 16 to 9) are not required to perform any more work in completing their STA's to full power. KMGH already has an exemption which allows it to wait until 2-17-09 to turn on full power digital. KUSA will get the same treatment. Look for both of these stations to remain at low power from RP until 2-17-09 when they flash cut to channels 7 and 9. They will probably cease analog operations just before 2-17-09 so they can convert their analog transmitters to digital. They can do this up to 30 days before 2-17-09.
...
Thanks for your informative post.

On the KBDI post, I may be wrong, but I sense that KBDI would prefer option 1 since it could be perceived as lower risk. They would be using their existing digital equipment for up to 6 months after the transition date, which should be fairly safe. They would not put their analog broadcast capability at risk by taking some of the equipment off-line before they have to shut down. Option 1 would seem to allow the conversion of the analog equipment to digital to occur under less stress. It seems reasonable to me. The question is whether it will seem reasonable to the FCC, since it would have to let them use their UHF frequency for an extra 6 months and retain the right to VHF channel 13. I wonder if KBDI is attemting to ask for permission rather than a recommendation, although they may be doing it in the wrong way.

I do have a question about your KMGH and KUSA comments. I read it more than once, and I am not sure whether you mean to imply that they will not purchase new transmission equipment for the Lookout Mountain site. I have been retired for over 10 years, but when I had to engineer facilities for a new product, I would always try to justify purchasing new equipment to meet the initial demand, rather than substantially modifying facilities that we needed to meet our current production on a time line where the world could fall apart. (In the case of these TV station, I would have nightmares about the movers dropping a transmitter bay when moving it from the current analog building to the new shared facility.) Once the product conversion had taken place, it would be easier to convert the older equipment to provide increased capacity and back-up. I never worked professionally in the RF area (I was mostly trying to keep it out of the equipment I designed and/or specified), but I would think the broadcast engineers would lean toward a similar approach. I would think that it would make sense to purchase a brand new antenna and transmitter for Lookout, and have it ready to turn on in February of 2009. I would presume they could do some brief tests at off hours (like 2AM), by powering down the analog transmitter and powering up the new digital transmitter. When the transition period ended, the analog transmission equipment could then be moved to the new building and converted for back-up use, if that was cost effective. Do you see that as possible or likely?

Meanwhile, is CSI: Miami even fed from the syndicator in HD? I don't know of any station showing any network rerun in syndication in HD.


CSI: Miami is syndicated on A&E HD in HD. I know Law & Order is syndicated in HD on TNT HD also.

Looks like we will get digital transmission from RP in late spring.

hdtvcolorado.com

CSI: Miami is syndicated on A&E HD in HD. I know Law & Order is syndicated in HD on TNT HD also.

Technically, programs airing off-net on A&E, or TNT, or any "cable" channel, are not considered as being syndicated.

Syndicated programming is when local stations purchase said show to air locally OTA. If I have my history right, syndication goes back to the days long before satellite delivery when films of shows were "syndicated" between stations. Then 2" quad tape was used. When station A finished airing it, it was then sent to station B, etc. These days, satellite delivery is used to feed the programming. With so few stations actually being able to capture and play out HD programming, very little programming is available (see below).

In today's market, you can find shows M-F on "cable" channels and on weekends on local stations.

The only syndicated shows in HD, that I know of, are Two and a Half Men (I believe that is the show) and the two game shows, Jeopardy! and Wheel of Fortune.

With Pathfire now coming up-to-speed in HD delivery, more stations should start to be able to do HD syndicated programming.

Old TV Watcher, means LM (Lookout Mt.) not RP (Republic Plaza) I am sure...

kenavs,

Thanks for your comments. I'll attempt to clarify my post based upon the points you raised.

Briefly, the reason I think KBDI should/must/will be told to do option 2 by the FCC is that they are admitting that they can be full power and shut down analog on 2-17-09 under this option. While I believe some stations will be allowed to do what option 1 calls for, they have to show they have no other choice, won't interfere with other stations by staying on their STA frequency, etc. The FCC wants these stations, with very limited exceptions, to be full power on 2-17-09. KBDI probably mentions option 1 because this what they really prefer to do rather than doing option 2 during the winter weather. It's kind of like KDBI is playing a game with the FCC. I think they know they must do option 2, but it doesn't hurt to try to do an end around with option 1

I did not refer to KMGH's and KUSA's transmitter status, i.e., will they buy new ones or convert the analog to digital, because it really isn't a determining factor to the FCC in meeting the 2-17-09 date. I presume that both stations are going back to the VHF analog frequencies for better coverage, a lower electric bill, and the ability to convert the transmitters from analog to digital at less cost than buying new transmitters. What the FCC is saying in its latest order is that if a station is not full power digital now (on an STA) and the station is changing channels for permanent facilities on 2-17-09, the stations are not required to continue to build out their STA facilities to full power since their life is now, as of yesterday, less than a year. In other words, stations that had legal problems, procrastinated to the fullest extent, etc. are, in effect, being rewarded (although it makes sense to do so at this date) for not building out their digital facilities.

Don't be surprised if they NEVER do local news in HD. Here in Raleigh-Durham NC (birthplace of HDTV NEWS), we still have only 1 company (Capital Broadcasting), who owns CBS and FOX, doing local news in HD.
Fortunately, our CBS affiliate is owned by CBS, so they will convert. And it'll be this year (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=12500173#post12500173), as we've been repeatedly assured by local management.

With KUSA and KCNC doing local news in HD, KMGH would be foolish to be the only 10pm newscast in SD. That said, McGraw Hill owns several other stations, none of which do local news in HD, so who knows.

(I'm pretty sure I posted this right before the big forum crash a week or two ago).

Sorry about that. I meant Lookout mountain. You'll have to excuse me because I'm 72 years old!!!

kenavs,

Thanks for your comments. I'll attempt to clarify my post based upon the points you raised.

Briefly, the reason I think KBDI should/must/will be told to do option 2 by the FCC is that they are admitting that they can be full power and shut down analog on 2-17-09 under this option. While I believe some stations will be allowed to do what option 1 calls for, they have to show they have no other choice, won't interfere with other stations by staying on their STA frequency, etc. The FCC wants these stations, with very limited exceptions, to be full power on 2-17-09. KBDI probably mentions option 1 because this what they really prefer to do rather than doing option 2 during the winter weather. It's kind of like KDBI is playing a game with the FCC. I think they know they must do option 2, but it doesn't hurt to try to do an end around with option 1

I did not refer to KMGH's and KUSA's transmitter status, i.e., will they buy new ones or convert the analog to digital, because it really isn't a determining factor to the FCC in meeting the 2-17-09 date. I presume that both stations are going back to the VHF analog frequencies for better coverage, a lower electric bill, and the ability to convert the transmitters from analog to digital at less cost than buying new transmitters. What the FCC is saying in its latest order is that if a station is not full power digital now (on an STA) and the station is changing channels for permanent facilities on 2-17-09, the stations are not required to continue to build out their STA facilities to full power since their life is now, as of yesterday, less than a year. In other words, stations that had legal problems, procrastinated to the fullest extent, etc. are, in effect, being rewarded (although it makes sense to do so at this date) for not building out their digital facilities.

Thanks for the clarifications. As I meant to convey, I was supsicious that I might be reading something into the phrase "They will probably cease analog operations just before 2-17-09 so they can convert their analog transmitters to digital." that you were not saying.

I just received the following email from info@hdtvcolorado.com
We are just one year away from the federally mandated conversion from Analog TV to Digital TV.

On February 18, 2009 all analog television will be replaced by digital TV. Each household can obtain two $40 coupons from the federal government to offset the cost of set-top digital converters. This will let you to use your analog-only TV for over-the-air digital signals.

The Lake Cedar Group’s consolidated Digital TV tower on Lookout Mountain will begin broadcasting digital signals for Channels 4, 7, 9 and 20 in late spring. For more information about the coupon program and to see the progress of the new digital tower go to www.hdtvcolorado.com.

Brought to you by the Lake Cedar Group

Am I wrong to think that this letter implies that 7-1 KMGH and 9-1 KUSA will establish temporary UHF transmitters on Lookout Mountain. I suppose they could use the out that the new transmitters for 4-1 KCNC and 20-1 KTVD qualify as "begin broadcasting".

I wondered if KMGH and KUSA were going to move their STA transmitters from RP to Lookout but I didn't mention it in my previous posts as it was somewhat off the topic I covered. It will probably save them some $ to vacate the RP facilities and move the STA transmitters in the spring. Gannett will, with the move of KTVD off of its STA to its permanent facility on Lookout by 5-18-08, probably not want facilities in two locations, so it makes sense for them to move KUSA's STA to Lookout. Personally, I hope they do move. It will make the need for my rotor almost non-existent and the signal strength will probably improve with the increased elevation.

Here's the relevant excerpt from KTVD's Form 387 filing:
The Commission is well-aware of the difficulties and lengthy delays associated with
construction of the Lookout Mountain tower. After years of litigation, construction is
nearing completion and KTVD anticipates that it will be ready to operate its digital
facilities from the new tower beginning on or about April 13, 2008. Coordination with
the other Lake Cedar Group stations has been on-going throughout the construction.
Testing of KTVD’s digital facilities will be carried out pursuant to Section 73.1610 of the
Rules. Since there will be no cessation or reduction in analog or digital service as a result
of the testing, no FCC notification or viewer announcements will be needed. Once the
new facility has been completed, KTVD will terminate its STA operations at Republic
Plaza and, upon notification to the FCC, will commence full-power digital program tests
on Lookout Mountain pursuant to its permit. KTVD will file a Form 302-DTV
application for license to cover within 10 days of commencement of program tests,
pursuant to Section 73.1620(a)(1) of the Rules.
KTVD will continue providing full power analog service at its present analog site until
February 17, 2009.
Looks like the BBQ might be moved up a bit.

Here's the relevant excerpt from KUSA's Form 387 filing:
The Commission is well-aware of the difficulties and lengthy delays associated with
construction of the Lookout Mountain tower. After years of litigation, construction of the
new tower is expected to be completed by the end of April 2008. Coordination with the
other Lake Cedar Group stations has been on-going throughout the construction. On or
about April 13, 2008, KUSA intends to terminate its STA operations at Republic Plaza
and commence operations on its pre-transition digital channel 16 at Lookout Mountain.
KUSA plans to continue operating at Lookout Mountain, at reduced power, through
February 17, 2009. To that end, KUSA will file imminently an application on Form 301
to modify its channel 16 CP (BMPCDT- 20000501ADN) seeking a reduction in the
authorized power (1000 kilowatts). KUSA will license those facilities upon completion
of the move, pursuant to paragraph 46 of the Order.
KUSA will continue to provide full power analog service from its licensed analog
facilities until February 17, 2009.
Looks like they're leaving RP. KUSA makes no statement regarding either converting their analog channel 9 transmitter to digital or purchasing a new digital transmitter. Included in KUSA's filing is a request to expand its Grade B service contour to more closely match its analog service area. From the final DTV channel assignments listing, KUSA did get screwed a little bit on coverage area. Ironically, KTVD has the best coverage area in terms of population served.

From its Form 387 filing, KMGH is purchasing a new digital transmitter for channel 7 and will have it installed by June 2008. KMGH states that it will continue operating its STA on channel 17 until 2-17-09 and is silent on moving it from RP to Lookout. So, they apparently will flashcut to their new transmitter on 2-17-09. There goes my reduced rotor usage!

From its Form 387 filing, KMGH is purchasing a new digital transmitter for channel 7 and will have it installed by June 2008. KMGH states that it will continue operating its STA on channel 17 until 2-17-09 and is silent on moving it from RP to Lookout. So, they apparently will flashcut to their new transmitter on 2-17-09. There goes my reduced rotor usage!

Thanks milehighmike! That information is good to know.

But, it sounds like we are going to have to do some complaining to KMGH to move their channel 17 equipment to LM, or at the very least, to increase their power once the other channels are off of RP. It probably won't help a whole lot since either action would probably require more paperwork to the FCC, and KMGH just doesn't seem to care much about its digital OTA customers to do this.

KWGN, KDVR, and KPXC have not filed their Forms 387 yet (or they haven't been posted on the FCC web site yet). KGWN (Cheyenne) has not posted either and KLWY (Cheyenne) plans to flash cut on or before 2-17-09. KGWN, which is fully licensed as digital, has a side mounted transmitter lower than its analog transmitter on its tower and will probably shut off its analog slightly before 2-17-09 to move the digital transmitter to the top of its tower.

The only other filing of note is for KCEC, the Spanish language station on digital 51. It has requested an extension of its STA in order to complete construction of its full power facility, which it states is on Lookout. Since KCEC is not changing channels from its STA for full power operation, and since other stations such as KCNC and KTVD are meeting the full power operation requirement date of 5-18-08, KCEC seems to be in a tenuous situation, since it appears it can't make the 5-18-08 date via its request to extend its STA. I can't be Swammi on this one, but I don't think they qualify for an STA extension. They may find themselves subject to some penalties, such as FCC monitoring of construction, etc.

Here's the relevant excerpt from KUSA's Form 387 filing:

Looks like they're leaving RP. KUSA makes no statement regarding either converting their analog channel 9 transmitter to digital or purchasing a new digital transmitter. Included in KUSA's filing is a request to expand its Grade B service contour to more closely match its analog service area. From the final DTV channel assignments listing, KUSA did get screwed a little bit on coverage area. Ironically, KTVD has the best coverage area in terms of population served.

If I read their 387 correctly, KUSA states that "KUSA will continue to provide full power analog service from its licensed analog facilities until February 17, 2009.", and KUSA seems to acknowledge that "KUSA must complete construction of its final digital facilities by February 17, 2009". Unless something is buried in the rest of the proposal, that I have missed, that would allow them to avoid the requirement to have the final digital facilities operational by February 17, 2009, the combination of those 2 statements would seem to imply that they will be purchasing and installing new digital transmission equipment.

KUSA has a digital STA up and running, has not completed the construction of its full power digital facility, and is changing channels from pre-transition 16 to post-transition 9. That scenario is covered very precisely by the Third Periodic review. (It also is applicable re: KMGH.)

KUSA has the option, as do all full power TV stations, to maintain full power analog coverage up to 2-17-09. They have opted to do that.

Based upon my opening scenario, KUSA must have completed and made operational its post-transistion facilities transmitting on channel 9 by 2-17-09. They have stated that they will do that also.

There is nothing else to "read" into this. Buying a new or converting the old analog transmitter does not enter into play here. If they opt to convert their old transmitter, they will probably have to do some work on it during the wee hours of the night, including testing, that will result in their analog signal being shut off, temporarily, during this process.

Finally, they cannot avoid the requirement to be digital, and only digital, on 2-17-09. If a station cannot be up and running in digital mode (some exclusions apply for extreme cases such as bankruptcy), the station must go dark. What's the point of having a hard date for transition otherwise?

KUSA has a digital STA up and running, has not completed the construction of its full power digital facility, and is changing channels from pre-transition 16 to post-transition 9. That scenario is covered very precisely by the Third Periodic review. (It also is applicable re: KMGH.)

KUSA has the option, as do all full power TV stations, to maintain full power analog coverage up to 2-17-09. They have opted to do that.

Based upon my opening scenario, KUSA must have completed and made operational its post-transistion facilities transmitting on channel 9 by 2-17-09. They have stated that they will do that also.

There is nothing else to "read" into this. Buying a new or converting the old analog transmitter does not enter into play here. If they opt to convert their old transmitter, they will probably have to do some work on it during the wee hours of the night, including testing, that will result in their analog signal being shut off, temporarily, during this process.

Finally, they cannot avoid the requirement to be digital, and only digital, on 2-17-09. If a station cannot be up and running in digital mode (some exclusions apply for extreme cases such as bankruptcy), the station must go dark. What's the point of having a hard date for transition otherwise?

It's no big deal, but I just do not understand how they could possibly have the analog and digital transmitters capable of operation on the same day without having additional equipment. The transmitters are in different buildings and the antennas are on different towers.

Posted by kenavs:
It's no big deal, but I just do not understand how they could possibly have the analog and digital transmitters capable of operation on the same day without having additional equipment. The transmitters are in different buildings and the antennas are on different towers.
I agree with you. But there are many stations around the country doing the same thing. I think what is really going to happen, if KUSA is not installing a new transmitter, is that they will shut down analog a little early. The FCC's Third Review provides for this up to 30 days before cutoff with no permission needed from the FCC. Don't forget they also requested a change/increase in service contour, which I presume involves antenna patterns and more ERP. These types of requests for changes, as I understand it, won't be considered by the FCC until August. Whether or not KUSA receives or doesn't receive its request may determine what type of transmitter they plan to purchase, which may be why their Form 387 is silent in that aspect.

Just think, in a year from now, we'll probably be discussing multipath, local programming, and different types of indoor antennas. That'll be a welcome change from transmitters, towers, and coat hangers.:D

HD DVD is dead, Blu-Ray is alive and well. Looks like I can go get one of those players now, as most of the country was waiting to see what happened.Oooops, typo. I meant HD-DVD is dead.

Typo? More like a Freudian slip...I think we all know who Ernie secretly wanted to win. :p

The last two Tuesdays, KKTV-DT (CBS in Colorado Springs) has treated us to SD for the primetime lineup, running a crawl before each show stating, "Tonight's prime time shows are not available in HD due to CBS election coverage". KKTV's chief engineer tells me they get the same CBS network feed that Denver gets. Are you guys getting Tuesday evening programming from KCNC-DT in SD, or should I be wearing my boots when corresponding with KKTV's CE?

Typo? More like a Freudian slip...I think we all know who Ernie secretly wanted to win. :pActually, you are exactly correct. I'm bummed they went down in flames.

I use HD-DVD's all the time. In pro video, I can edit in HD and burn my HD program to standard DVD media using Apple's Compressor/DVD Studio Pro software. Then it plays in high-def on my HD-DVD player in my Home Theater. I'm not giving up my HD-DVD player just yet. It's great to demo for clients!

I agree, Blu-Ray is the better overall format for storage size, but the blank media still costs a bloody fortune. Burning to SD DVD's is awsome!

The FCC 387 Form for KRMA-DT has been posted on the FCC website. For those of us hoping for an improved transmitter, it does not look good. They checked the box that says that KRMA is now operating its fully authorized final, DTV (post-transition) facility. Below is exhibit 4 which details their position.
Exhibit 4
Description: NOTICE OF INTENT TO OPERATE AS CONSTRUCTED

ROCKY MOUNTAIN PUBLIC BROADASTING NETWORK, INC. (RMPBN) HAS COMPLETED CONSTRUCTION OF, AND IS NOW OPERATING, KRMA-DT'S FINAL, POST-TRANSITION DTV FACILITY, PURSUANT TO ITS PENDING LICENSE APPLICATION (BLEDT-20070806AED) AND GRANTED PERMIT (BMPEDT-20061205AAG). RMPBN INTENDS TO CONTINUE TO OPERATE KRMA-DT'S EXISTING FACILITY AND NOT THE FACILITY SET FORTH IN THE DTV TABLE OF ALLOTMENTS 'APPENDIX B'.

KRMA-DT'S EXISTING, CONSTRUCTED FACILITY DIFFERS FROM APPENDIX B AS FOLLOWS:

ERP: 115 KW
HAAT: 331 M
ANTENNA ID: 76810
LATITUDE: 39-40-17
LONGITUDE: 105-13-06

ON OCTOBER, 26, 2007, RMPBN FILED A PETITION FOR RECONSIDERATION, IN MB DOCKET NO. 87-268, PROPOSING CHANGES TO THE DTV TABLE OF ALLOTMENTS TO MATCH ITS CONSTRUCTED FACILITY, AS NOTED ABOVE.

The Form 387 for KDVR states that it plans to keep its analog up and running until 2-17-09 and that it needs to add equipment, which it plans to do, to increase its ERP to full power. It doesn't state when it will go full power, which would be 1 mW.

For KFCT, they are staying analog until analog shutdown and have asked to reduce power to cover only Ft. Collins and not duplicate coverage of KDVR. Looks like they want to go down to 50 kW.

KRMT is fully licensed - digital. They plan to keep their analog up thru cutoff.

The only metro Denver station left, KWGN, shows no filing of Form 387 as I write this post.

KGWN in Cheyenne is fully licensed digital with their digital transmitter 27 meters lower on their tower than their analog transmitter, which they will keep going until cutoff. Their Form 387 makes no mention of any modifications so it looks like they will not be moving their digital transmitter to the top of their tower.

Actually, you are exactly correct. I'm bummed they went down in flames.

I use HD-DVD's all the time. In pro video, I can edit in HD and burn my HD program to standard DVD media using Apple's Compressor/DVD Studio Pro software. Then it plays in high-def on my HD-DVD player in my Home Theater. I'm not giving up my HD-DVD player just yet. It's great to demo for clients!

I agree, Blu-Ray is the better overall format for storage size, but the blank media still costs a bloody fortune. Burning to SD DVD's is awsome!

Not to side track the thread, but you still can with Blu-ray ... Both players (HD-DVD & Blu-ray) support a HD standard on DVD media.

Here is a link and how to in a sister forum:
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=371324

You can read between the lines based on your source (not TiVo)
There should be an equivalent method for Mac as well.

Back to original thread.

# Matt

The FCC 387 Form for KRMA-DT has been posted on the FCC website. For those of us hoping for an improved transmitter, it does not look good. They checked the box that says that KRMA is now operating its fully authorized final, DTV (post-transition) facility. Below is exhibit 4 which details their position.


That's bad news for me in Lafayette. I just tried again, and I don't get a sniff of KRMA. I guess I'll be PBS free from now until KDBI increases their power (I get a sniff of them, but can't lock on).

KWGN's Form 387 finally posted this PM. They need to construct new facilities, including purchasing a new transmitter which won't be delivered until March 2009, and buy other things such as a transmission line, generators, etc. They will stay at 450 kW until the new stuff is up and running. The projected date for full power operation is August 2009. Analog will stay on thru 2-17-09.

Looks like KWGN will be the last to go full power in the metro area.

The FCC 387 Form for KRMA-DT has been posted on the FCC website. For those of us hoping for an improved transmitter, it does not look good. They checked the box that says that KRMA is now operating its fully authorized final, DTV (post-transition) facility. Below is exhibit 4 which details their position.

This really stinks. Is there a way to complain, and point out the many, many homes that can receive KRMA analog, but not KRMA-DT? Aren't they supposed to maintain the same coverage area?

-Sarah

KWGN's Form 387 finally posted this PM. They need to construct new facilities, including purchasing a new transmitter which won't be delivered until March 2009, and buy other things such as a transmission line, generators, etc. They will stay at 450 kW until the new stuff is up and running. The projected date for full power operation is August 2009. Analog will stay on thru 2-17-09.

Looks like KWGN will be the last to go full power in the metro area.

I thought the FCC rules required full power digital on 2/17/09? KWGN isn't even going to have the equipment for full power by then. Shouldn't they be in line for an FCC penalty for this inadequate digital implementation performance?

I thought the FCC rules required full power digital on 2/17/09? KWGN isn't even going to have the equipment for full power by then. Shouldn't they be in line for an FCC penalty for this inadequate digital implementation performance?
Good grief. As it is I can get their signal with an indoor antenna pointed almost any direction. And they've had that good a signal for years now, going back to when KMGH was using a coat-hanger.

I think we can cut them some slack.

Good grief. As it is I can get their signal with an indoor antenna pointed almost any direction. And they've had that good a signal for years now, going back to when KMGH was using a coat-hanger.

I think we can cut them some slack.

Well I can get KWGN's analog signal, ghost free, with an indoor antenna, but their digital signal is something else again, and I'm only about 10-miles from their LOM tower. For a digital signal as strong as I get from KUSA on an indoor omni-directional antenna mounted about 25 feet above ground level, I need a 19 db pre-amp and good weather on LOM.

From my attic mounted XG91 with a 26 db pre-amp pointed at RP, I get a good signal (not as strong as KUSA) from KWGN. With a small Yagi antenna pointed at their LOM tower, a get a good, not great, signal with at least 19 dp of pre-amp. I get as strong or stronger signals from KDVR-DT with each of the described antenna configurations. Again, these are greatly influenced by weather conditions.

So no, I'm not going to cut them a lot of slack with their digital conversion.

Well I can get KWGN's analog signal, ghost free, with an indoor antenna, but their digital signal is something else again, and I'm only about 10-miles from their LOM tower. For a digital signal as strong as I get from KUSA on an indoor omni-directional antenna mounted about 25 feet above ground level, I need a 19 db pre-amp and good weather on LOM.

From my attic mounted XG91 with a 26 db pre-amp pointed at RP, I get a good signal (not as strong as KUSA) from KWGN. With a small Yagi antenna pointed at their LOM tower, a get a good, not great, signal with at least 19 dp of pre-amp. I get as strong or stronger signals from KDVR-DT with each of the described antenna configurations. Again, these are greatly influenced by weather conditions.

So no, I'm not going to cut them a lot of slack with their digital conversion.

This has got to be location-specific, then. When I first ventured into HDTV, I could get KWGN and channel 31, and nothing else. Thought I needed a better antenna... well, it turned out I wasn't actually connected to the antenna--there must have been a cable break in the walls somewhere (the antenna was from previous owners, as was the coax running through the walls at that time). So in Longmont, I was receiving them OTA with the part of the coax cable that wasn't broken--basically a highly shielded, non-directional "antenna". For me, their signal is quite strong, generally stronger than KUSA.

-Sarah

I hope KWGN's digital transition plan is rejected by the FCC. IMO, it violates the provisions of the Third Periodic Review. We'll see what happens.

This has got to be location-specific, then. When I first ventured into HDTV, I could get KWGN and channel 31, and nothing else. Thought I needed a better antenna... well, it turned out I wasn't actually connected to the antenna--there must have been a cable break in the walls somewhere (the antenna was from previous owners, as was the coax running through the walls at that time). So in Longmont, I was receiving them OTA with the part of the coax cable that wasn't broken--basically a highly shielded, non-directional "antenna". For me, their signal is quite strong, generally stronger than KUSA.

-Sarah

I'm thinking that is the relative position, alignment, and perhaps type of broadcast antenna they are using for digital versus their analog broadcast. I can get their analog broadcast strong and pretty clear with what amounts to a coat hanger.

I'm thinking that is the relative position, alignment, and perhaps type of broadcast antenna they are using for digital versus their analog broadcast. I can get their analog broadcast strong and pretty clear with what amounts to a coat hanger.
It is probably largely the height. They struggled with (s)CARE obstruction of putting their antenna on their tall tower, so it is mounted on the short tower currently. The court case was resolved last year and they can go to the tall tower; I don't know why they couldn't move the DTV antenna sometime before analog shut-off, even if the new full-power transmitter didn't get installed until later.

This really stinks. Is there a way to complain, and point out the many, many homes that can receive KRMA analog, but not KRMA-DT? Aren't they supposed to maintain the same coverage area?

-Sarah

The FCC has an online complaint page HERE. (http://www.fcc.gov/cgb/complaints.html)
A letter to your congressional representatives might also be in order.

Well I can get KWGN's analog signal, ghost free, with an indoor antenna, but their digital signal is something else again, and I'm only about 10-miles from their LOM tower. For a digital signal as strong as I get from KUSA on an indoor omni-directional antenna mounted about 25 feet above ground level, I need a 19 db pre-amp and good weather on LOM.

From my attic mounted XG91 with a 26 db pre-amp pointed at RP, I get a good signal (not as strong as KUSA) from KWGN. With a small Yagi antenna pointed at their LOM tower, a get a good, not great, signal with at least 19 dp of pre-amp. I get as strong or stronger signals from KDVR-DT with each of the described antenna configurations. Again, these are greatly influenced by weather conditions.

So no, I'm not going to cut them a lot of slack with their digital conversion.

I have been thinking about your post since I first read it, since your experience with 2-1 KMGH-DT is so different from mine. I wonder if there is anything about your location that makes it difficult to receive UHF from Lookout Mountain. Since KMGH-DT broadcasts on UHF 34, I don't think that your ability to receive a Low-VHF station like Analog 2 provides a lot of information. I would think that your reception of Analog 31 would be more informative. If I am reading you correctly, you are also not very excited by the strength of signal you get on 31-1 KDVR-DT, which broadcasts on UHF 32 and which (if I understand their FCC entries correctly) is also supposed to be at more than 10 times the power of the RP transmitters.
I seem to recall lots of complaints about the KRMA, KBDI, and the station on RP, but I do not recall a lot of mentions of signal strength issues with KWGN-DT and KDVR-DT. KWGN-DT and KMGH-DT have been my 2 strongest signals since I first got a TV with an ATSC tuner in the fall of 2005.

Posted by jamjar:
The FCC has an online complaint page HERE.
The FCC will not accept complaints about technical issues via this link. You must send snail mail to:

Federal Communications Commission
Enforcement Bureau
Spectrum Enforcement Division
445 12th Street, SW
Washington, DC 20554

or you can fax the complaint to (202)-418-2810

How do I know this? Personal experience.;)

This really stinks. Is there a way to complain, and point out the many, many homes that can receive KRMA analog, but not KRMA-DT? Aren't they supposed to maintain the same coverage area?

-Sarah

In general yes. Their digital power level and antenna characteristics should be engineered to maintain signal power level contours that duplicate a certain level of analog signal reception in a specified coverage area.

Does this mean point for point compatibility .. probably not. They cannot be held responsible for propagation abnormalities at your receiving site even if you do reside in their licensed coverage area. Unless you can cite a specific technical non-conformance with their approved license you will not get anywhere with the FCC.

--- CHAS

I have been thinking about your post since I first read it, since your experience with 2-1 KMGH-DT is so different from mine. I wonder if there is anything about your location that makes it difficult to receive UHF from Lookout Mountain. Since KMGH-DT broadcasts on UHF 34, I don't think that your ability to receive a Low-VHF station like Analog 2 provides a lot of information. I would think that your reception of Analog 31 would be more informative. If I am reading you correctly, you are also not very excited by the strength of signal you get on 31-1 KDVR-DT, which broadcasts on UHF 32 and which (if I understand their FCC entries correctly) is also supposed to be at more than 10 times the power of the RP transmitters.
I seem to recall lots of complaints about the KRMA, KBDI, and the station on RP, but I do not recall a lot of mentions of signal strength issues with KWGN-DT and KDVR-DT. KWGN-DT and KMGH-DT have been my 2 strongest signals since I first got a TV with an ATSC tuner in the fall of 2005.

I can receive all of the VHF analog broadcasts with a set-top antenna an no amplification; however, analog channels 7 and 9 are badly ghosted. I can receive analog channel 31 without amplification, but it is weaker than the VHF broadcasts and also badly ghosted. A little pre-amplification on analog 31 is an improvement, but pre-amplification is essential for a strong digital signal on either channels 32 or 34.

I had Gakon run a check a few years ago of the profile from LOM to my house and it looked like a clear shot. However, my personal observation is that I'm in a low point along Ralston Creek, have a hill on Ward Road between me and LOM, and I have high-tension lines about a half mile away running across my azimuth to LOM. I believe the overall reception of channels 32 and 34 digital signals is reduced by multi-path problems with those signals. I've noticed that my 2 better ATSC tuners do better with 32 and 34 than does my Dish 811 receiver.

When I first stuck up an amplified (10 dB) set-top antenna in my family room in December 2003, the only DTV station I could receive was KUSA-DT. I'm not sure why I get their signal so well since I have a small ridge-line about a mile from my house that runs across my azimuth to RP. But, KUSA has always been my strongest DTV channel. The current KMGH and KTVD signals are now equal to KUSA.

I thought the FCC rules required full power digital on 2/17/09? KWGN isn't even going to have the equipment for full power by then. Shouldn't they be in line for an FCC penalty for this inadequate digital implementation performance?

Not sure how the FCC will handle this but if I were in charge, I would revoke their broadcasting license. They will probably receive temporary relief on the full power requirement after petitioning the Colorado congressional delegation.

It's a good thing for them that I'm not in charge.

--- CHAS

I agree with HIPAR's comments except that I'm sure the FCC isn't going to revoke KWGN's license.

Below is a copy of the relevant exhibit from KWGN's Form 387 regarding its plan to transition to digital and the analog shutoff. I've added by sarcasm comments in red italic.

KWGN Inc. (“KWGN”), licensee of KWGN-DT, Denver, Colorado (the”Station”), elected to have the Station remain on its pre-transition DTV channel 34 for its post-transition operations. To avoid a substantial disruption in its analog service, which we know isn't as important as any disruption to full power conversion to digital but it sounds good, KWGN is unable read "we elect not to" to complete construction of the Station’s maximized, 1 MW post-transition, DTV channel 34 allotment because the build-out would require the removal and replacement of the Station’s top-mounted, analog channel 2 antenna from its main tower. We know there are many other stations around the country with the same set of circumstances who are effectively working around this problem, but we don't care to make the effort. Until very recently, KWGN was also prevented from building-out the Station’s maximized, DTV facility due a longstanding zoning dispute with Jefferson County, the County in which Lookout Mountain is located. Of course, you are well aware that there are several other stations in the Denver DMA that incurred similar legal problems. These stations are able to meet full power digital buildout requirements, including construction of a new tower which, thankfully, we do not have to do, but we think we can still get more mileage out of this "reasoning". Lookout Mountain is an antenna farm used by a number of stations that serve the Denver market.

Instead, KWGN built an interim, 450 kW ERP digital STA facility on channel 34 from the Station’s auxiliary tower. See FCC File No. BDSTA-20020625AKS. The Station commenced DTV operations pursuant to this STA in November 2003 and has continued this operation since pursuant to numerous STA extensions. See, e.g., FCC File No. BEDSTA-20060518ADN; FCC File No. BEDSTA-20071204ADT. Importantly, the Station’s interim DTV STA operation serves approximately 92.5 percent of KWGN’s analog service population. We know our delay will deny 7.5% of our analog service population from receiving our digital signal until 8-17-09, but that's only 15 months from when we are technically required to have full digital service functionality, 5-18-08. We want to rely on keeping analog service through 2-17-09 as justification for this otherwise unjustified action.

To allow the build-out of the Station’s post-transition 1 MW facility to proceed in an orderly way, i.e. the way we want it to proceed, not according to the rules set forth in the DTV Third Periodic Review, KWGN currently expects to file the necessary requests to extend the Station’s current May 18, 2008 post-transition build-out deadline up through and including August 17, 2009. We know you have no basis to grant these requests to delay our construction of our full power digital facilities based upon the reasons stated above, but heck, it doesn't hurt to ask.
ADDITIONAL STEPS
The following is a non-exhaustive list of projects that KWGN must complete before it can sign-on the Station’s post-transition, 1 MW channel 34 facility with targeted completion dates:

December 2007
Deliver down payment to Dielectric for final DTV antenna; We should have done this sometime in 2006 to ensure delivery and installation by 5-18-08, but cash flow is cash flow.

June 2008
Order and install generator and automatic transfer switch for DTV facility in main transmitter building; Again, we should have done this in 2007.

March 2009
Payment for, and delivery of, top-mounted 1 MW DTV antenna; Once again, not very timely but it really helps our cash flow.

April – July 2009 (timing dependent on weather conditions)
Remove existing NTSC antenna on main tower and replace with new DTV antenna We know the latest we should be doing this is about 30 days prior to 2-17-09 and shutting off our analog early, but we really want to keep our analog up and running to the bitter end.
Replace existing three inch transmission line with six inch line We could have easily done this during the summer of 2007, but did we mention cash flow?
Modify/tune current DTV transmitter and RF system to accommodate 1 MW service We know every station has to perform this work but, hey, it certainly adds to our list of to-do's.

I don't know how many of you agree with my assessment of KWGN's transition plan, but I think they're flouting the rules and making other stations look like fools for complying if they get away with it.

I don't know how many of you agree with my assessment of KWGN's transition plan, but I think they're flouting the rules and making other stations look like fools for complying if they get away with it.
I trust that you are correct about the legal issues, but I am far more troubled by what KRMA-DT is doing.
At least KWGN-DT has a working transmitter which they claim reaches 92% of their analog service area, and that claim does not seem unbelievable. They also plan to offer a full power signal before the end of 2009. Also, on a selfish note, I get KWGN-DT just fine.
KRMA-DT has moved the center of their service area over 3 miles south. The comments from Louisville, Lafayette and Longmont indicate that there are many areas that have adequate service from KRMA analog but cannot receive KRMA-DT. Based on the comments in the forum, I sense that significant parts of the metro area will loose KRMA. It would seem that the Federal legislation would allow KRMA to establish a transmitter on Lookout Mountain that could service an area similar to the analog one but the KRMA-DT form 387 makes it clear that they are satisfied with the coverage that they can get from their current antenna which is about 1/4 the power of KWGN-DT and is only 12 meters off the ground. They don't seem to have any intention of making any improvements for a very long time, if ever.
My point would be that KWGN-DT may be in violation of the letter of the transition rules, but KRMA seems to be in gross violation of the intent of the transition.
On a similar rant, the KPXC proposal looks pretty silly too, but I would not consider it to be much of a loss.

I have to wonder what KWGN could do if they lost their broadcasting license. Let's try this:

a) Change their moniker to Front Range TV
b) Dispose of their tower, transmitter and ancillary broadcast infrastructure/personnel
c) Pay DBS and local cable to distribute programming to the 85% to 90% that watch that way now
d) Lower the cost of advertising to retain sponsors (assuming it costs less not to broadcast)

Who needs a channel number anymore?
Who needs a monthly bill for using a megawatt of power?
Who needs to maintain a huge antenna tower?
Who needs all of those governmental restrictions on programming?
Who needs the rest of the FCC bureaucracy?

Business would be so much simpler.

--- CHAS

... The comments from Louisville, Lafayette and Longmont indicate that there are many areas that have adequate service from KRMA analog but cannot receive KRMA-DT. Based on the comments in the forum, I sense that significant parts of the metro area will loose KRMA...

KRMA-DT operates on a UHF channel while KRMA analog operates on a Low band VHF Channel. There are great differences in the propagation characteristics between these channel radio frequencies. Most notabily, UHF is more subject to shadowing from terrain obstacles.

KRMA provides the following coverage maps comparing analog from Lookout and digital from Morrison:

http://www.rmpbs.net/content/index.cfm/fuseaction/showContent/contentID/77/navID/75

Much of the western analog coverage appears to be provided through translators.

KRMA also contends they are in conformance with FCC transition guidelines:

http://mediacolorado.com/content/view/54/9/

These guidelines evidently don't require 100% parity in analog vs digital coverage with KRMA-DT achieving 95%.

You will need to stop sending them money when they have a fund drive.

--- CHAS

Again, I agree with HIPAR regarding KRMA. But I also think it's unfortunate that KRMA has acted in the manner they have in transitioning to digital TV. I have expressed this in previous posts.

As I see it, KRMA is in full compliance with FCC requirements. They applied for a license for their current transmitter's location and power and received it. In that process, they apparently voluntarily gave up OTA coverage in certain geographical areas, which appear to be areas such as Louisville and Boulder. There is no requirement that a station's digital signal replicate in every manner their analog signal. On the other side of the equation, stations are free to request increases (or decreases, as KFCT has done) in their digital coverage area over their analog coverage area, although they cannot do that until August 2008. I recollect from posts a couple of months back that KRMA's plans are to increase their digital coverage in the future, but not within the next couple of years. They made some bad decisions and as a result are on the ice bridge instead of a tower. The management team responsible for these bad decisions should be fired since the result will be a negative impact on subscriber contributions and overall level of viewership.

Bottom line is the KRMA is a licensed facility and the FCC approved their actions. No level of complaining to the FCC will change that.

And, yes, HIPAR, KPXC is a joke. I have posted that I predict they will go dark at analog cutoff. I still stand by that prediction. And yes, it won't be much of a loss. I don't think I've ever watched anything on that station.

HIPAR, your comments about KWGN losing its license are not so far fetched. There was a thread on Avs a couple of months ago about how the Canadian government plans to cease OTA broadcasting, except in major cities such as Toronto, Montreal, Vancouver, etc. when their digital transition is complete and they shut off analog, due to costs. Apparently, Canada, which has vast regions of sparsely populated areas, views converting analog LP's, repeaters, etc. as too costly. Those areas will not have OTA TV at Canada's analog cutoff, at least to the extent of CBC network stations, and viewers will need to subscribe to pay services to receive CBC. Exactly your scenario for KWGN.

Well I can get KWGN's analog signal, ghost free, with an indoor antenna, but their digital signal is something else again, and I'm only about 10-miles from their LOM tower. For a digital signal as strong as I get from KUSA on an indoor omni-directional antenna mounted about 25 feet above ground level, I need a 19 db pre-amp and good weather on LOM.

From my attic mounted XG91 with a 26 db pre-amp pointed at RP, I get a good signal (not as strong as KUSA) from KWGN. With a small Yagi antenna pointed at their LOM tower, a get a good, not great, signal with at least 19 dp of pre-amp.

This has got to be d directional issue of some type, or perhaps an overload.

Here in Louisville, with not even a normal antenna, it's literally an FM "T antenna" I tried connecting to my TiVo S3, I get a signal strength of "92" out of "100" from KWGN-DT.

Frankly, I'm almost worried about overload once they crank up full power.

Meanwhile, of course, RMPBS' digital coverage map is pure unadulterated fantasy, unless by "reception" they mean someone with a dedicated Yagi pointed directly at their Mt. Morrison trasmitter.

Again, I agree with HIPAR regarding KRMA. But I also think it's unfortunate that KRMA has acted in the manner they have in transitioning to digital TV. I have expressed this in previous posts.

As I see it, KRMA is in full compliance with FCC requirements. They applied for a license for their current transmitter's location and power and received it. In that process, they apparently voluntarily gave up OTA coverage in certain geographical areas, which appear to be areas such as Louisville and Boulder. There is no requirement that a station's digital signal replicate in every manner their analog signal. On the other side of the equation, stations are free to request increases (or decreases, as KFCT has done) in their digital coverage area over their analog coverage area, although they cannot do that until August 2008. I recollect from posts a couple of months back that KRMA's plans are to increase their digital coverage in the future, but not within the next couple of years. They made some bad decisions and as a result are on the ice bridge instead of a tower. The management team responsible for these bad decisions should be fired since the result will be a negative impact on subscriber contributions and overall level of viewership.

Bottom line is the KRMA is a licensed facility and the FCC approved their actions. No level of complaining to the FCC will change that.


I just did a query of the FCC website and the status I saw for KRMA-TV's DT service was CP MOD. Does that qualify as licensed?
Also, the Service Contour Map associated with that CP Mod shows coverage for Louisville, Lafayette, and Longmont. It actually goes all the way up to Loveland.
Am I looking at the wrong things?

I just did a query of the FCC website and the status I saw for KRMA-TV's DT service was CP MOD. Does that qualify as licensed?
Also, the Service Contour Map associated with that CP Mod shows coverage for Louisville, Lafayette, and Longmont. It actually goes all the way up to Loveland.
Am I looking at the wrong things?

There has to be a simple explanation for problems covering these areas, i.e the transmitting antenna not being high enough to sufficiently clear the lip of the mountain or masking by terrain.

A quick look at Google Maps in the terrain view shows foothill and mesa type terrain in the vicinity of Rt 128.

I'm thinking a FCC Service Coverage Map represents the contour of the maximum distance a field strength required for reliable DTV reception is expected to be achieved. It does not guarantee reception within that contour.

The most problematic aspect of the DTV transition will be those who cannot get digital to work for shadowing, multipath or an inadequate antenna system.

Then there are those in my situation. I cannot receive TV here in the Pocono mountains of NE Pa from my official DMA stations but I can receive a snowy but usually watchable picture from New York and Philadelphia. I'll loose those stations after the DTV transition having no recourse for complaint because I'm not within their licensed service contours.

If it ain't broke, fix it till it is.

--- CHAS

kenavs,

Go to:
http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/getattachment_exh.cgi?exhibit_id=454669

Note that this request was granted.


Also, have you tried the tvfool.com website which should show the effect of surface contours on KRMA's signal to your home? The FCC's contour maps for the Springs stations show I'm within their coverage areas. I don't get a sniff of these stations and tvfool.com validates that due to shadowing.

kenavs,

Here's another thought regarding how digital reception doesn't seem to make sense at times.

I used to receive a very reliable signal from KGWN (Cheyenne) when they were on their STA transmitter with a stated 95.5 kW but, in reality, was probably closer to 40 kW. When they switched to their permanent transmitter, with something like 460 kW, my reception disappeared. As another example, I receive KFCT 100% of the time even though they are transmitting ERP of only 50 kW. I'm 76 miles from their transmitter.

kenavs,

Go to:
http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/getattachment_exh.cgi?exhibit_id=454669

Note that this request was granted.


Also, have you tried the tvfool.com website which should show the effect of surface contours on KRMA's signal to your home? The FCC's contour maps for the Springs stations show I'm within their coverage areas. I don't get a sniff of these stations and tvfool.com validates that due to shadowing.
Thanks for the info.

I finally found the application that this exhibit is part of. Does the FCC require that the applicants be able to document that the coverage area claimed in the application is even remotely accurate?

I did go to tvfool.com It idicated that KRMA-DT would be about 10 db below KDVR-DT and KWGN-DT which are very strong. According to it, KRMA-DT should also be 10db stronger than KCNC and KUSA which I get just fine. KRMA-DT comes and goes with my antenna pointed toward it.

Interestingly, AntennaWeb did not show a listing for 6-1 if I had an antenna 8000 ft up, although it did say I should be able to get a weak signal by mounting the antenna 9000 ft up. I presume it has detected some shadowing. Based on the local terain, I do not see how any shadowing it thinks it sees could be at my end. I am actually near the top of a ridge with no nearby terain that is significantly higher and just residential structures between me and the transmitter(at my end). I wonder if their system has detected something blocking quite close to the transmitter. As I understand it, the antenna is very close to the face of the mountain. I have never seen it, or a good picture, but I wonder if it would be possible for something a little north of the antenna to jut out far enough to block the signal. Does anyone know where there might be some good pictures that would allow some analysis?

Posted by kenavs:
Does the FCC require that the applicants be able to document that the coverage area claimed in the application is even remotely accurate?
The FCC requires a station's service area contour map be calculated using the Longley-Rice model using a level of confidence of f(50,90). You can read about this calculation at www.fcc.gov/Bureaus/Engineering_Technology/Documents/bulletins/oet69/oet69.pdf

The FCC's coverage contours under the Longley-Rice model are expressed as f(50,90), which means that geographic areas within the contour map will receive a usable signal in at least 50% of the total area included within the contour area 90% of the time. Conversely, what that means is that 50% of the area contained within the service contour map will receive a usable signal at times, but it will not be at a level of at least 90% of time. That is why, as you expressed in a previous post, KRMA's signal comes and goes.

TV Fool uses a more accurate model of Longley-Rice, f(99,99). That means that 99% of the area within the service contour will receive a usable signal 99% of the time. Of course, there is still that 1% that you may fall into.

Also to keep in mind that these service contour coverage maps do not take into account other factors that may affect your reception, such as large trees nearby, buildings, electrical interference nearby, etc.

Hope that helps. And good luck on your 9000 foot tower!

Meanwhile, of course, RMPBS' digital coverage map is pure unadulterated fantasy, unless by "reception" they mean someone with a dedicated Yagi pointed directly at their Mt. Morrison trasmitter.

I think that is exactly what they mean and I think that is fully acceptable to the FCC. Fortunately, they don't provide enough compelling content to get many folks to do much extra to get their anemic current signal.

KGWN, which is fully licensed as digital, has a side mounted transmitter lower than its analog transmitter on its tower and will probably shut off its analog slightly before 2-17-09 to move the digital transmitter to the top of its tower.

Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't the mounting of transmitters on towers extremely difficult and prone to weather? :D :D

I thought that stations tended to place their transmitters safely on the ground, inside of weather protected buildings :D :D :D

I just couldn't pass that one by :cool:

Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't the mounting of transmitters on towers extremely difficult and prone to weather? :D :D

I thought that stations tended to place their transmitters safely on the ground, inside of weather protected buildings :D :D :D

I just couldn't pass that one by :cool:

Not always. Klein Tower built a 1000 ft tower in Florida where they placed a donut looking enclosure over the platform around the tower up about 800 ft to hold the equipment. Don't know why, but when the money is coming in, you don't ask questions. :D

Looks like KCNC news will be HiDef in April:

http://www.denverpost.com/ci_8379460?source=rss

# Matt

posted by mrvideo:
Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't the mounting of transmitters on towers extremely difficult and prone to weather?

I thought that stations tended to place their transmitters safely on the ground, inside of weather protected buildings

I just couldn't pass that one by

Thanks for catching that, I enjoyed the laugh! I guess I get my transmitters and antennas mixed up on posts after midnight.

Looks like KCNC news will be HiDef in April:

http://www.denverpost.com/ci_8379460?source=rss

# Matt

Good find Matt! Here is a copy of the full press release:

http://static.cbslocal.com/station/kcnc/docs/2008/02/HDReleasefinal.doc

From the full press release:

"At approximately the same time as the station goes high definition in the CBS4 studios, the new digital transmitter on Lookout Mountain will be activated which will improve digital reception throughout the viewing area."

When is the BBQ?

# Matt

Looks like KCNC news will be HiDef in April:

http://www.denverpost.com/ci_8379460?source=rss

# Matt
Sweet! I figured once Colorado Getaways was HD, the news wouldn't be far behind.

(Oh and to all you naysayers who said they wouldn't ever do HD news: :p)

:)

Is anyone else interested in a tour of CBS4 once they get their HD news up and running? I've sent an e-mail inquiry to the station's GM to see if it would be a possibility, but it would probably be useful to know if anyone else is interested so I can give him an idea how much of an imposition this would be.

I am. :D

Not always. Klein Tower built a 1000 ft tower in Florida where they placed a donut looking enclosure over the platform around the tower up about 800 ft to hold the equipment. Don't know why, but when the money is coming in, you don't ask questions. :D

Damn! Why would anyone do that? Doesn't that make it really tough to service?

Consider me stunned and as usual, never say never :)

Damn! Why would anyone do that? Doesn't that make it really tough to service?

Consider me stunned and as usual, never say never :)

People do put equipment on platforms on towers in weather proof equipment to cut down on feed line due to cost or RF loss, but to build a room on one to put equipment is unique and I have never seen another one like it. Oh yeah, it did have an elevator to ride up to the room. Elevators are not uncommon on tall towers though.

People do put equipment on platforms on towers in weather proof equipment to cut down on feed line due to cost or RF loss, but to build a room on one to put equipment is unique and I have never seen another one like it. Oh yeah, it did have an elevator to ride up to the room. Elevators are not uncommon on tall towers though.

Ya, little things I can understand, but a large multi-bay TV broadcast transmitter (which the discussion was about) just doesn't make any sense.

The other tower in town, which has a three-pointed candelabra top, also has an elevator. Far as I know, all of the TV transmitters are on the ground in one of the two floors in the transmitter building :)

Is anyone else interested in a tour of CBS4 once they get their HD news up and running? I'd be interested, as long as it didn't conflict with the BBQ.

Is anyone else interested in a tour of CBS4 once they get their HD news up and running?

If a tour can be arranged, I highly recommend it. When I was given a private tour a couple of years ago, it was when the studio control room was being rebuilt and the new monitor wall was being brought up.

Do go for it.

Posted by gakon:
I'd be interested, as long as it didn't conflict with the BBQ.
Great line. Best funny on this thread in a while.

Here's a couple of towers with transmitters off the ground. Well, maybe not towers, but structures.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/17/Sapporo_TV_Tower_in_the_snow.jpg
http://i.pbase.com/o6/93/693893/1/72726168.5r1vkmck.TVTowerOympiaStadionMunich.jpg

Is anyone else interested in a tour of CBS4 once they get their HD news up and running? I've sent an e-mail inquiry to the station's GM to see if it would be a possibility, but it would probably be useful to know if anyone else is interested so I can give him an idea how much of an imposition this would be.
Count me in if I am not traveling

Is anyone else interested in a tour of CBS4 once they get their HD news up and running? I've sent an e-mail inquiry to the station's GM to see if it would be a possibility, but it would probably be useful to know if anyone else is interested so I can give him an idea how much of an imposition this would be.
Count me in also.

Is anyone else interested in a tour of CBS4 once they get their HD news up and running? I've sent an e-mail inquiry to the station's GM to see if it would be a possibility, but it would probably be useful to know if anyone else is interested so I can give him an idea how much of an imposition this would be.

I'm in!

I assume the tour would be sometime in April. I'll be out of town for 11 days, but if I'm here, count me in.

This has got to be d directional issue of some type, or perhaps an overload.

Here in Louisville, with not even a normal antenna, it's literally an FM "T antenna" I tried connecting to my TiVo S3, I get a signal strength of "92" out of "100" from KWGN-DT.

Frankly, I'm almost worried about overload once they crank up full power.

Meanwhile, of course, RMPBS' digital coverage map is pure unadulterated fantasy, unless by "reception" they mean someone with a dedicated Yagi pointed directly at their Mt. Morrison trasmitter.

The weak KRMA-DT signal got me looking around. I could not find any pictures of the antenna on the Ice Bridge, so I looked around on Google Earth to try and get an idea of the lay of the land. The application coordinates for the site (39 40 17N 105 13 06W NAD 23) did not seem to fall on the tower I could see. That led me to the difference between NAD 27 and NAD 83 coordinates. The tower coordinates were 39 40 17.4W 105 13 8.0N NAD 83. Google Earth uses NAD 83 coordinates. Once I understood that, I could see that the antenna and the tower were in the same place.

Using Google earth the base of the tower seemed to be about 7685 feet. The site elevation is listed at 2343 meters or 7687 feet so that looked right. The antenna radiation center is listed as 12 meters up which would be 39.37 feet.

I noticed that the KPXC site was about 750 feet away and almost on a line between the KRMA-DT antenna and Louisville. I found elevation readings around that building up to 7726 feet which would be the same altitude as the KRMA-DT antenna radiation center. I don't know how tall the KPXC building is, but all of the above ground part of it would be above the KRMA-DT antenna center of radiation. I suspect that the KPXC site and the surrounding terrain are blocking a fair amount of signal for those of us in the Louisville area.

I decided to check out KTFD-DT which is on the same tower as KRMA-DT. FTFD-DT is 14-1 and broadcasts on UHF 15. That puts it pretty close to KRMA-DT 6-1 which broadcasts on UHF 18. KTFD-DT is listed at 200 KW ERP as compared to KRMA-DT at 115KW ERP. The other big difference is that the antenna height above ground is 42 meters(138 feet) as opposed to 12 meters(40 feet)

On my TV which is able to display its idea of received signal strength, the KTFD-DT signal was significanly stronger than the KRMA-DT signal. I am no expert, but I would think that the extra 100 feet of elevation could be making a huge difference. It would place the antenna high enough above the KPXC terrain to offer a line of site path to the Louisville area.

I would be interested if some of the others in Louisville/Lafayette/Longmont area would check out their ability to receive KTFD-DT 14-1 on UHF15. If many can get it cleanly, it might offer insight whether the height above ground might be an important issue of the KRMA-DT antenna. It would also help to indicate whether the big problems are at our end or at the transmitter end. If I am reading things correctly, KTVD Analog may have an antenna on that tower so that KRMA-DT might be able to move their antenna up the tower when the analog stations go dark, if they can get past the Luddites.

I would especially be intersted whether Kucharsk gets a decent KTFD-DT signal with his antenna pointed at RP, since he has mentioned that he does not get a sniff of KRMA-DT under those conditions.

Here's a couple of towers with transmitters off the ground. Well, maybe not towers, but structures.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/17/Sapporo_TV_Tower_in_the_snow.jpg
http://i.pbase.com/o6/93/693893/1/72726168.5r1vkmck.TVTowerOympiaStadionMunich.jpg

In Russia, many of the TV transmitters are located on top of concrete broadcast towers, structures built to be antenna farms in the sky with transmitter rooms just below the antennas. Many have a look similar to CN Tower in Toronto, but more utilitarian looking.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/4/44/Ost.jpg/150px-Ost.jpg
1771 ft Ostankino Tower, Moscow, Russia

I would especially be intersted whether Kucharsk gets a decent KTFD-DT signal with his antenna pointed at RP, since he has mentioned that he does not get a sniff of KRMA-DT under those conditions.

KTFD-DT absolutely blasts in for me here, stronger in fact than any of the RP signals my antenna is pointed at and just two "points" on the TiVo S3 lower than KWGN-DT.

Using the same TiVo S3 scale, KRMA-DT alternates between 25 and 0, meaning it's just too faint to get a lock, and of course KBDI-DT comes in as a big fat 0. :D

If we're talking structures with transmitters off the ground, lest we forget. :(

http://i.pbase.com/u33/mpwheatley/large/21341031.WTC12.jpg

There's a great writeup about the staff that lost their lives there here (http://www.fybush.com/wtc-recovery.html):

The arrival of digital TV to the New York market, and the impending FCC deadline to get DTV construction permits on the air, made for a busy summer up there, 1400 feet above lower Manhattan. In July, WNBC-DT and WABC-DT had been the first of the Trade Center DTVs to sign on, quickly followed by the other digital TV signals that were sharing a new panel antenna on the huge mast that crowned the north tower, WPIX-DT, WNET-DT and WWOR-DT. (The last two Trade Center DTV signals, WPXN-DT and WNJU-DT, had yet to sign on.)

Millions of dollars had been invested in refitting the transmitter rooms to accomodate the additional equipment for the DTV conversion in the nation's biggest TV market, providing for the extra power and cooling the new transmitters needed.

By that mid-September morning, most of the work had been completed. But there was always someone in most of the big transmitter rooms, even early in the morning, and on that particular day six engineers were settling in for their daily routines in their transmitter rooms: Isaias Riveras and Bob Pattison in the 110th floor space of WCBS-TV (which was analog-only from WTC; its DTV facilities were up at Empire), William Steckman down on 104 at WNBC/WNBC-DT, Donald DiFranco at WABC-TV/DT on 110, Steve Jacobson down the hall at WPIX-TV/DT, and Rod Coppola watching the transmitters of WNET-TV/DT nearby.

They would be among the nearly 3,000 lives lost that morning, at least some of their transmitters running almost to the very end, broadcasting the pictures of their own buildings burning. But by the time the north tower collapsed, with the TV antenna plummeting through clouds of dust to the ground below, the screens of most New York viewers without cable had gone nearly empty.

World Trade was constructed as an office building and was later fitted with the antenna mast. The tower in Moscow was constructed with the expressed purpose of being an antenna farm.

Is anyone else interested in a tour of CBS4 once they get their HD news up and running? I've sent an e-mail inquiry to the station's GM to see if it would be a possibility, but it would probably be useful to know if anyone else is interested so I can give him an idea how much of an imposition this would be.

I am, especially if we get to see/meet the new anchor, Karen Leigh; what a honey. LOL!

Anyway, the removal of Molly Hughes as evening anchor will actually be a greater incentive for me to return to watching Channel 4 News than the fact that they are going HD. I just could never stomach her William Shatner School of Presentation approach to reading the news.

Hey, I could use a new picture of me and a TV personality. People at work still get a kick out of the one dr_mal took of me and Kathy Sabine at the last studio visit, but that one's getting kind of old.

Hey, I could use a new picture of me and a TV personality. People at work still get a kick out of the one dr_mal took of me and Kathy Sabine at the last studio visit, but that one's getting kind of old.
I'm constantly surprised when people ask me "who's that" when the picture comes up on my screensaver.

I'm also constantly surprised when I see it that she didn't call security and have us all booted. Quite gracious for a TV personality, I thought. :cool:

I would be interested if some of the others in Louisville/Lafayette/Longmont area would check out their ability to receive KTFD-DT 14-1 on UHF15. If many can get it cleanly, it might offer insight whether the height above ground might be an important issue of the KRMA-DT antenna. It would also help to indicate whether the big problems are at our end or at the transmitter end. If I am reading things correctly, KTVD Analog may have an antenna on that tower so that KRMA-DT might be able to move their antenna up the tower when the analog stations go dark, if they can get past the Luddites.


I'm in Lafayette, very near the Arapahoe YMCA.
I also get KTFD-DT easily. I have a yagi in the rafters pointing generally at LOM/Morrison. And I have a double bow-tie on the shelf next to my TV pointing out a window towards RP. KTFD comes in with huge signal on both antennas (Only KWGN comes in stronger). I get no sniff of KRMA from the ice bridge on either antenna. I did get KRMA easily with the DBT when it was on RP, but the ice bridge is just a no-go for me.

Hello David,

If the potential KCNC tour is before March 19 or after March 30, I'm in.

Don

Hey Don,

I assume they'll want to work out the kinks before inviting us down, so I'm expecting (if it happens) to be sometime in April or even May. Just trying to gauge interest for when Mr. DeHaven gets back to me.

I'm in Lafayette, very near the Arapahoe YMCA.
I also get KTFD-DT easily. I have a yagi in the rafters pointing generally at LOM/Morrison. And I have a double bow-tie on the shelf next to my TV pointing out a window towards RP. KTFD comes in with huge signal on both antennas (Only KWGN comes in stronger). I get no sniff of KRMA from the ice bridge on either antenna. I did get KRMA easily with the DBT when it was on RP, but the ice bridge is just a no-go for me.

That makes at least 3 of us in the Louisville/Lafayette area that get a strong KTFD-DT and a weak KRMA-DT. That leads me to believe that we have eliminated terrain and antennas at our end as the issue. I really suspect that the signal from the low mounted KRMA-DT antenna is getting blocked by either the terrain near the KPXC transmitter building, or the building itself. If it is the building, that would explain why locations to the west of us could get a stronger signal from KRMA-DT.

It might be informative if someone from Boulder could compare the signal they get from KRMA-DT and KTFD-DT. I seem to recall JMartinko indicating that he could get KRMA-DT and had a receiver that indicated signal strength. John, can you supply some signal strength readings for these 2 stations?

I get 14-1 at 86% with my antenna pointed at RP, 0% for 6-1. I did try and point my antenna at Morrison once, that only got me a little sniff of KRMA. This is from Nth Longmont, right by the FAA.

If I am reading things correctly, KTVD Analog may have an antenna on that tower so that KRMA-DT might be able to move their antenna up the tower when the analog stations go dark, if they can get past the Luddites.

Interesting. Would the relocation of the KRMA-DT antenna require relicensing?

The reason for the antenna being stuck on the ice bridge has always been a puzzler for me. Here is a blurb on the antenna from its manufacturer, RF Technologies (quoted from http://www.rftechnologies.net/news.html):


RFT supplies ultra low RFR pylon antenna to KRMA-DT in Denver

KRMA-DT in Denver recently selected RF Technologies to supply its ultra low downward radiation SFNstar™ antenna for the station’s
new Mt. Morrison transmitter site. The new antenna is going to be mounted on the site’s ice bridge just 39 feet above ground level.

The 32 element patent issued and pending, SFNstar™ antenna has less than 0.005 of peak field at -90 degrees below the horizon, and
less than 0.024 of peak field from -45 to -90 degrees below the horizon. With the 115 kW ERP of KRMA-DT, the antenna produces less
than 0.35% of maximum occupied exposure, and less than 1.75% of the maximum public exposure level on the ground near the antenna.


It looks as though the antenna is specifically designed to limit downslope radiation, which might also be part of the reason that Louisville viewers are seeing so little signal. Also, if it is place on the tower at a higher point, the vertical pattern might still limit reception, unless it's tilted.

Finally, because it's a pylon design, I wonder if it's simply not suited to tower mounting. Does anyone on the forum know anything about this?

Jim McCauley

I'm in for the tour.

# Matt

Interesting. Would the relocation of the KRMA-DT antenna require relicensing?

The reason for the antenna being stuck on the ice bridge has always been a puzzler for me. Here is a blurb on the antenna from its manufacturer, RF Technologies (quoted from http://www.rftechnologies.net/news.html):



It looks as though the antenna is specifically designed to limit downslope radiation, which might also be part of the reason that Louisville viewers are seeing so little signal. Also, if it is place on the tower at a higher point, the vertical pattern might still limit reception, unless it's tilted.

Finally, because it's a pylon design, I wonder if it's simply not suited to tower mounting. Does anyone on the forum know anything about this?

Jim McCauley

I do not know why they mounted the antenna so low, but I suspect it had much more to do with the arguements with the NIMBYs and Luddites than any potential resistance from the FCC or structural issues in mounting the antenna. I am sure that others can offer a more informed opinion in this area.

I do not think that the limited downward radiation of the antenna design is relevent at all to the East Boulder County problems. Louisville is higher than Denver and further away, so if the antenna pattern could not reach down to Louisville, it would also go over the top of Denver. To hit Lousville, the signal has to come down less than 2500 feet over a distance greater than 20 miles. That is less than -2 degrees. I don't think we have to pay a lot of attention to the numbers for -45 to -90 degrees.

I really think that the problem is the terrain near the KPXC building and/or the buiding itself. Using Google Earth the KPXC building is about 750 feet north of the KRMA-DT tower. The KPXC tower is listed as 2 seconds east of the KRMA-DT tower which is in very roughly 150 feet at that location. That puts the KPXC building about 11 degrees east of due north from the KRMA -DT tower. TV fool says that the true azimuth reading to the KRMA-DT tower from my house is 189 degrees, which is 9 degrees west of due south. Based on those angles, a line between the KRMA-DT antenna and my house would almost certainly go through the KPXC building.
The land slopes up from the KRMA-DT tower when you head toward the KPXC tower, as you can tell from their licensing documentation.

KRMA KPXC
2355 2379 AMSL - Antenna Meters above mean sea level
0012 0026 AGL - Antenna Meters above ground level
2343 2353 Calculated altitude of ground in meters abe sea level.

This establishes that the ground slopes up 10 meters from the KRMA-DT tower to the KPXC tower. The radiation center of the KRMA-DT antenna (2355) is only 2 meters above the ground level at the KPXC building. My rough calculations say that it would have to be more than 6 meters above the KPXC site to permit line of sight to Louisville, even if you ignore the KPXC structures. That would mean that the land would be blocking some signal targetted at East Boulder County. I have never seen it, but I assume that the KPXC building is tall enough that it would be noticeably higher than the KRMA-DT antenna. I would presume that it is blocking even more of the signal. There are now 4 reports from East Boulder County that receive significantly stronger signal from KTFD-DT which is on the same tower as KRMA-DT, but 30 meters higher. The fact that JMartinko in Boulder gets KRMA-DT reasonably well makes me suspect that the building is part of the problem. I believe that line of site to Boulder would be west of the building. If he gets similar signal strengths for KRMA-DT and KTFD-DT , I would think it is because the signal can go to the side of building for him and others in Boulder. If he see a similar disparity between the stations that those in East Boulder County observe, that would lead me to suspect that the building is not a significant factor.
I have not seen anything to lead me to believe that the effects of the KPXC building would have been included in the KRMA-DT coverage plots that were provided to the FCC (If someone knows different or that the building would not have an effect, please speak up), so that could be part of the explanation for the difference between East Boulder County observations and the predicted coverage.

Oh, I'm interested in the tour as well.

G

A question for those who live in Longmont.

I have a large rooftop antenna on top of my two story house. The antena is fixed and is aimed toward Lookout Mountain. I have applied for the coupon to get the discounted digital tuner. What digital stations (signals) should I be able to receive without a pre-amplifier? What additional signals would I get with a pre-amplifier?

I wonder if KPXC plans to remove its building associated with its analog transmitter operations once analog is shut down. It appears they are trying to move their facility 52 kM NE of their analog site for digital operations. Removing that building might be the key to resolving Louisville reception problems.

That makes at least 3 of us in the Louisville/Lafayette area that get a strong KTFD-DT and a weak KRMA-DT. That leads me to believe that we have eliminated terrain and antennas at our end as the issue. I really suspect that the signal from the low mounted KRMA-DT antenna is getting blocked by either the terrain near the KPXC transmitter building, or the building itself. If it is the building, that would explain why locations to the west of us could get a stronger signal from KRMA-DT.

It might be informative if someone from Boulder could compare the signal they get from KRMA-DT and KTFD-DT. I seem to recall JMartinko indicating that he could get KRMA-DT and had a receiver that indicated signal strength. John, can you supply some signal strength readings for these 2 stations?

I will try to remember to write down a couple of levels for you tomorrow (not at home at the moment). I don't watch KTFD much, but it seems like I get pretty strong reception. Of course my antenna is mounted facing RP so I currently only get KRMA and KTFD in the sidelobes, but it has always seemed to be enough signal that I don't have any issues with either.

[QUOTE=kenavs;13253605]That makes at least 3 of us in the Louisville/Lafayette area that get a strong KTFD-DT and a weak KRMA-DT. That leads me to believe that we have eliminated terrain and antennas at our end as the issue.

Make that at least 4. I have the same issue in Louisville, just north of S.Boulder Rd/ Via Appia intersection (on the 3rd floor with an indoor DB-2 antenna). I can get KTFD OK, but KRMA is VERY weak (Last week I spent 15 min moving the antenna to find one particular spot in the middle of the room that got us a watchable signal).
And of course we can't get KBDI either - I'm hoping their switch to channel 13 in 2009 might somehow improve the reception, but since I get NOTHING from them right now, that's a long shot.

I will try to remember to write down a couple of levels for you tomorrow (not at home at the moment). I don't watch KTFD much, but it seems like I get pretty strong reception. Of course my antenna is mounted facing RP so I currently only get KRMA and KTFD in the sidelobes, but it has always seemed to be enough signal that I don't have any issues with either.

TIA
I don't watch KTFD-DT myself, since I do not speak any Spanish, but I got interested when I realized it was on the same tower as KRMA-DT, used a close frequency (UHF 15 vs UHF 18) and was in the ballpark for ERP (200 KW vs 115 KW). I think the huge difference for East Boulder County is that the antenna is mounted 30 meters higher.

From what I recall from when I spoke to the engineer at KRMA several months ago after they first moved to Mt. Morrison, they placed the transmitter on the ice bridge because the ice bridge is not considered the "tower" so they did not need to get zoning approval to place a new transmitter on the "tower."

I've mentioned before that KRMA was/is also hoping that once TV 20's analog transmitter on the tower is shut off they can move their transmitter onto the tower by attempting to convince powers that be that it's still a single transmitter on the tower.

I'll see if I get KRMA-DT when I point my RP antenna at Lookout this Spring, but so far I haven't really missed them much, save for being unable to watch The War in HD.

I'm at Sims and 108th just south of Jeffco Airport. KTFD-DT booms in here but I don't get anything from KRMA-DT. I'm using a Channel Master 4228 aimed at Republic.

A question for those who live in Longmont.

I have a large rooftop antenna on top of my two story house. The antena is fixed and is aimed toward Lookout Mountain. I have applied for the coupon to get the discounted digital tuner. What digital stations (signals) should I be able to receive without a pre-amplifier? What additional signals would I get with a pre-amplifier?


Where in Longmont are you? There are noticeable differences in reception across the city. I get just about everything except KRMA-DT. I live about 1/4 mile from the big radio tower near 18th and Spencer.

Count me in for the tour. It'll be nice to see you guys again!

I get 14-1 good and strong (but I don't know the signal strength). I get 6-1 not at all. I'm in Longmont near 21st and Hover--about 1 mile north, and I think slightly west of sunshinedawg.

...................
It might be informative if someone from Boulder could compare the signal they get from KRMA-DT and KTFD-DT. I seem to recall JMartinko indicating that he could get KRMA-DT and had a receiver that indicated signal strength. John, can you supply some signal strength readings for these 2 stations?
As a point of information I took a quick look at the signal strengths of the two channels on my D* HR20-700. I have several other OTA receivers I have used with results similar to the HR20, but that one is convenient at the moment. It does have a signal strength indicator on it which shows percent. I doubt it is very accurate, but FWIW I took a look. Remember my antenna is pointed toward the RP in downtown Denver, NOT at Lookout or Morrison, so I am looking into a sidelobe about 45 deg off of boresight for the two channels. I get 100% on KTFD-DT and about 78% on KRMA-DT. As a point of reference I get most of the RP stations at about 60% depending upon weather and other factors. I have never had a problem with KRMA reception from either location (I can't tell by watching where the signal is coming from) and the levels I show are adequate to provide excellent reception without any issues on any of the RP or LM station. On the other hand with the antenna in the same location I don't even show a hint of KBDI-DT from Squaw Mt. I am sure glad (S)CARE didn't get the stations moved there.

I'm in Southmore Park, near Lefthand and Sunset.

Received my TV Converter box coupon today. It's a physical credit-card voucher that you bring to your local retailer. (Kinda' like a VISA gift card)

Oh, it's in Spanish too. Wonder who they're marketing this too?

As a point of information I took a quick look at the signal strengths of the two channels on my D* HR20-700. I have several other OTA receivers I have used with results similar to the HR20, but that one is convenient at the moment. It does have a signal strength indicator on it which shows percent. I doubt it is very accurate, but FWIW I took a look. Remember my antenna is pointed toward the RP in downtown Denver, NOT at Lookout or Morrison, so I am looking into a sidelobe about 45 deg off of boresight for the two channels. I get 100% on KTFD-DT and about 78% on KRMA-DT. As a point of reference I get most of the RP stations at about 60% depending upon weather and other factors. I have never had a problem with KRMA reception from either location (I can't tell by watching where the signal is coming from) and the levels I show are adequate to provide excellent reception without any issues on any of the RP or LM station. On the other hand with the antenna in the same location I don't even show a hint of KBDI-DT from Squaw Mt. I am sure glad (S)CARE didn't get the stations moved there.

Thank you very much for that data point.

I put identifiable addresses near landmarks referenced by the people who have responded into TVfool to get the angles to the KRMA-DT/KTFD-DT antennas from our homes.
185 JMartinko (reverse lookup of Martinko in Boulder)
187 Sunshinedawg (used Longmont FAA)
189 That's me in Louisville (Probably Kucharsk and Karkus also)
191 Gkanders (used Lafayette YMCA)
197 DJ Rob (used an address on 108th Drive near Simms & 108th)

From the station antennas, JMartinko is 5 degrees east of due North and gets both stations well. The rest of us are between 7 degrees and 17 degrees east of due North and get KTFD-DT fine but have trouble with KRMA-DT.
By my estimates using Google Earth, the KPXC structures are about 150 feet east and 750 north or about 12 degrees east of due North from the KRMA-DT/KTFD-DT antennas.

The KPXC structures sure seem to be on a line between the KRMA-DT/KTFD-DT antennas and those of us having trouble with KRMA-DT.

I also looked at the TVfool predicted signal strengths for John and me.

KRMA-DT KTFD-DT
-61.7dBm -56.0dBm JMartinko
-58.8dBm -52.8dBm Me
TVfool predicts the same relative signal strengths for John and me. I presume the additional power (200KW vs 115KW) would contribute to the higher predicted signal strength for KTFD-DT. We both show roughly a 6dBm difference in predicted signal strength, although he sees a modest difference in signal strength and I see a significant one.

I do not claim to be an expert, but IMHO, it sure looks like the KPXC structures are effecting the signals and that they are not accounted for in the TVfool calculations or the coverage chart that was provided to the FCC by the firm that did the consulting for KRMA-DT.

Also, if my theory is right, if they could just raise the KRMA-DT antenna by anything over the height of the KPXC building, those of us having problems would probably get dramatically improved signals.

I welcome comments from anyone with some actual TV broadcast expertise or any additional knowledge about this issue.

I took some reading from my DVICO Fusion Card using their SignalChecker utility and this is what I saw with my RadioShack U75R (in the garage, pointed toward LOM). FWIW, I am located about 1 mile SE of jmartinko at the east end of the Heatherwood subdivision.
KRMA-DT - 15 to 17db
KTFD-DT - 21 to 24 db
KRMT-DT - 14 to 16 db, no lock
KWGN-DT - 22 to 24 db
KDVR-DT - 21 to 23 db

I also have a Channel Master 4228 mounted outside pointed at RP. I didn't write down numbers for the RP stations, but they were generally in the range from 19 to 22 db.

In my experience , 15db is the absolute minimum for me to get a lock on any station. As you can see, I'm right on the edge with KRMA-DT. That's consistent with the fact that their signal USUALLY comes in for me, but occasionally does not.

I took some reading from my DVICO Fusion Card using their SignalChecker utility and this is what I saw with my RadioShack U75R (in the garage, pointed toward LOM). FWIW, I am located about 1 mile SE of jmartinko at the east end of the Heatherwood subdivision.
KRMA-DT - 15 to 17db
KTFD-DT - 21 to 24 db
KRMT-DT - 14 to 16 db, no lock
KWGN-DT - 22 to 24 db
KDVR-DT - 21 to 23 db

I also have a Channel Master 4228 mounted outside pointed at RP. I didn't write down numbers for the RP stations, but they were generally in the range from 19 to 22 db.

In my experience , 15db is the absolute minimum for me to get a lock on any station. As you can see, I'm right on the edge with KRMA-DT. That's consistent with the fact that their signal USUALLY comes in for me, but occasionally does not.

I decided to assume you live near Kincross Ct which appears to be about as east as it gets in the Heatherwood subdivision. I did a TVfool check for an address at the south end of the court and got an azimuth of 187 degrees to KRMA-DT. (Same as Sunshinedawg in Longmont), which was the west edge of the weak KRMA-DT reports. It seems plausible to me that you are very near the west edge of the weak zone. So far, I have not heard anything to completely destroy my theory.

Just another data point....

I am in Firestone (near the intersection of WCR 11 and WCR 22) and I get KTFD-DT at 100% on my DIRECTV HR20-700 (same reference as jmartinko) and KRMA-DT at 50-60%.

This is with my antenna pointed towards RP. (KWGN-DT and KDVR-DT also come in at 100% at this pointing - I can see the towers on LM from my deck on a clear night).

If I optimize the pointing for KRMA-DT, the signal jumps to about 75% (and I lose most of RP).

I'm in Southmore Park, near Lefthand and Sunset.

I think the south and east parts of town aren't as good as the north and west. I would suggest seeing if you can get 31-1 and 2-1 right now. These stations will be indicative of KCNC and KTVD when they move to Lookout. 7-1 and 9-1 will be VHF and I'm not sure how they will come in for you.

I'm in Southmore Park, near Lefthand and Sunset.

Mike,

I am just east of you on S. Terry near Utah Way. In order to get the RP stations, I had to put my antenna at least 10 feet above my roofline (I ended up going 30+ ft, just to try and get a better signal from 7-1), and I did need to have a small amplifier as well. I can usually get all of the RP stations just fine, but channel 7-1 tends to break up when the weather is warm. In the summertime, the signal on 7-1 is usually pretty good after about 9pm. In the wintertime, it is pretty much always a good signal.

Of course, I get 2-1 and 31-1 with no effort at all. And, if you are like me, you might be one of the lucky ones that get 6-1.

You may not need to go as high as I did. I live on a bit of a hill, so my neighbor's house is several feet above mine. I went with a really tall mast just to try and clear their house and to try and clear a tall tree that is in my yard. So you may have better luck with a shorter mast than I did. I found that I had a zero signal from all of the RP stations at 9ft, but at 10ft, all of them came in very well, except 7-1.

But, hopefully things will get a whole lot better in a couple of months when the new tower starts radiating!

Also, you may or may not need an amplifier for your setup. I needed a small one, but that may be due to the large number of tuners that I have hanging off of this thing. I've got 3 TV's, 1 DVR, and 4 computer tuners all hooked up to this.

B.J.

I put identifiable addresses near landmarks referenced by the people who have responded into TVfool to get the angles to the KRMA-DT/KTFD-DT antennas from our homes.
185 JMartinko (reverse lookup of Martinko in Boulder)
187 Sunshinedawg (used Longmont FAA)
189 That's me in Louisville (Probably Kucharsk and Karkus also)

FWIW, KRMA-DT/KTFD-DT are at 190º for me.

192 deg. for me in east Longmont (near Skyline Highschool). Using a pre-amp on SilverSensor on upstairs window, pointing at KRMA/KTFD gives me 100 on KTFD even if I rotate the antenna slightly. 15 is the max I can get (unusable) for KRMA-DT.

Another data point, SW of longmont, about 1 mile north of Haystack Mt, good LOS to Lookout and probably Morrison. KRMA-DT reception has been very good sinced they moved to Morrison. TVfool shows KTFD, KRMA at direction 180, Lookout at 182. Tuner LG-LST3510A, uncallibrated bar indicator for signal strength, eyeballed estimate 70% for KTFD-DT, 60% for KRMA-DT last night. Minimum watchable about 35% on this scale. Antenna is combo VHF/UHF in the attic, set up 10+ years ago for LM analog stations. Without moving the antenna, but removing all splitters from the line, I can just get some Republic stations on a good-signal night. Worst is KCNC (4-1) that has come in well only a couple of times in the past year. (I don't think my setup is good for high UHF.)

Pete
Niwot/Longmont

Here in Ft. Collins (near Drake & Lemay), I can get KTFD-DT 14-1 at above 90%. KRMA-DT won't stay locked and isn't usable. I have to carefully rotate the antenna to get it to come in for a few seconds at a time.

Mark

I'm in Arvada near 68th and Simms. The magnetic azimuth from my house to KRMA-DT, KTFD-DT, and KTVD (analog) is 194 degrees. The azimuth to KDVR-DT is 211, to KWGN it is 212, and to KBDI-DT it is 234 degrees.

Using a Winegard MetroStar® Omnidirectional MS-2000 Antenna, which has a built-in 19 dB UHF pre-amp, and having it mounted in my second floor master bedroom, I received the following signal strength readings this morning on a Samsung LNT3253H LCD HDTV:

KBDI-DT 6 solid bars
KDVR-DT 5-1/2 bars
KWGN-DT 5 bars
KTVD (analog) strong signal, no snow, lots of ghosts
KRMA-DT no signal

The rotation of the antenna was optimized for the strongest possible signal from KUSA-DT (5-1/2 bars) and KDVR-DT; however, the only weak sector in the field strength diagram is facing between 270 and 360 degrees where there aren't any signals and the rest of the diagram is pretty even, so it shouldn't affect the results for the channels I noted. I do occasionally get a lockable signal from KRMA-DT, but less than 10% of the time.

TVFool says that KRMA-DT has a 1-Edge path to my location, which is what it also says for KDFT-DT, but KDFT-DT comes in fine. TVFool says the dBm for KRMA-DT is -60.61 and for KDFT-DT it is -69.4. Point of reference is KTVD analog with LOS and -54.7.

Bottom line, there does appear to be something blocking the KRMA-DT signal to my house, while the other signals from the same location are fine. KDVR-DT is my strongest DTV signal according to TVFool with a dBw of -40.3 on LOS, while KWGN is fourth at -58.8 dBw on 1 Edge. The 1 Edge note for KWGN showed up when I lowered my estimated antenna height for my second floor bedroom location from 25 feet to 20 feet. As I expected, in addition to any blockage at the source, I'm in a hole of sorts. However, the KWGN analog signal is listed as LOS and my strongest OTA TV signal of all.

Here's a couple of towers with transmitters off the ground. Well, maybe not towers, but structures.

OK, so you found a loophole in my transmitters on the ground posting. You can add the Sears Tower, John Hancock building, Empire State Building, CN Tower, etc. to that list.

The fine print is that I'm talking about towers like the one now going up in sCARE's back yard :D

Nice tower though. Only one of the two shows up.

Received my TV Converter box coupon today. It's a physical credit-card voucher that you bring to your local retailer. (Kinda' like a VISA gift card)

Yep, got my two "credit card" coupons today.

Stupid thing is that the clock starts running from the day they are mailed. So much for 90 days in which to be able to use them. Seven days were gone before I even got the things.

15 is the max I can get (unusable) for KRMA-DT.

Probably the best we can do at this point is to maintain constant contact with KRMA regarding our disappointment at the lack of coverage at our individual locations. This will make it clear that there is a great deal of concern and also give them an indication of the scope of the problem.

KRMA contact page at their web site. (http://www.rmpbs.org/contact/)

John

This is off the subject but last night I was wathing "Medium" on Channel 9 and towards the end of the show the picture went dark. I was watching through direct TV on Hi-Def. I trid to see if I could get it in SD and I accidently went to channel 9 digital through my antenna and was able to receive the station through my antenna! I have not been able to get channel 9 digital through my antenna as the anteena is pointed to Lookout Mountain. I have ben able to get digital stations from Channel 2, 6 & 31. I was wondering if channel 9 is transmitting from Lookout Mountain now?

I live in Arvada near 64th & Wadsworth.

( I can still get 9-1 digital on my abtenna this morning!)

Yep, got my two "credit card" coupons today.

Stupid thing is that the clock starts running from the day they are mailed. So much for 90 days in which to be able to use them. Seven days were gone before I even got the things.

I applied for two right after they were taking requests and expect to receive mine soon too. I figured to beat the crowd. I may have jumped the gun as I'm not interested in any of the converter boxes available today. I'm hoping that the EchoStar TR-40 becomes available before my 90 days is over. Maybe I should have waited to request a coupon a little bit later in the year.

I applied for two right after they were taking requests and expect to receive mine soon too. I figured to beat the crowd. I may have jumped the gun as I'm not interested in any of the converter boxes available today. I'm hoping that the EchoStar TR-40 becomes available before my 90 days is over. Maybe I should have waited to request a coupon a little bit later in the year.

I really have zero need for my coupons. Curiosity made me go get mine. My two analog TVs really are not connected to cable or a pizza-pan system. The two STBs that I have, while older, are far better than what the coupons can by.

What I'll probably do is by two converters and give them to anyone locally who needs them.

What, no criticism of KCNC for their SD presentation of Jericho last night just because of one election cut-in?

What, no criticism of KCNC for their SD presentation of Jericho last night just because of one election cut-in?

Yea, that was bad. Probably contributed to my falling asleep half way through the show. Of course, skiing Mary Jane all day in a blizzard probably also contributed to my tired condition. LOL!

I expect my coupons any day now. So what is the best converter box available with the coupons? My assumption was that the Zenith unit, made by LG, would be the best since LG seems to have the best track record with ATSC tuners. Any thoughts on this?

CEB II, you might check out this chart "Comparison of CECB units" from Wikipedia. Not sure how many are available now though. The Magnavox is at Wallyworld now. None sound as promising as the TR-40.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_CECB_units

PS. check out the footnotes that reference AVS forums.

What do they mean by "Smart Antenna"?

CEB II, you might check out this chart "Comparison of CECB units" from Wikipedia. Not sure how many are available now though. The Magnavox is at Wallyworld now. None sound as promising as the TR-40.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_CECB_units

PS. check out the footnotes that reference AVS forums.

Thanks. While the TV Guide EPG on the Echostar TR-40 sounds nice, Echostar hasn't exactly been stellar with their ATSC tuner chips (at least compared to LG). I'd be afraid that an Echostar unit would constantly be in need of a firmware upgrade by E* to fix what they broke on the previous firmware upgrade. But then that's just me.

Interesting that most of the vendors are trying to get $20 or more premium out of the consumer over the $40 coupon value. Seems like a year or so ago the first vendor(s) to show the FCC and Congress a prototype were touting the fact that it would retail at about $50. Hmmm, that's 20% inflation. Better stop those Funds Rate cuts by the Fed.

What, no criticism of KCNC for their SD presentation of Jericho last night just because of one election cut-in?I have DirecTV HD and still get the West coast feed of CBS (complete with 1 minute warning banner every half-hour) so was able to get Jericho in HD without it being mangled by the election cut-in.

Lucky you!

CEB II,

I got a single coupon on Tuesday and went to the Loveland Best Buy and picked up their Insignia NS-DXA1 stb. Of course the Insignia is the Best Buy house brand and is a clone of the Zenith with the 6th generation LG chip in it. Up until the Insignia, I had been using a USDTV Hisense model (mfg 2005), with a 4th generation chip. It didn't have much tolerance for moving the antenna very much (a CM 4228 on a mast @ 20' with an RS rotator).

Anyway, the one thing I have noted is that the Insignia is much more tolerant of the antenna not being *dead on* to the tower heading. Compared to the Hisense model, the Insignia also sees the signal much easier. Last night it was having trouble decoding 4, 7, & 20, but then I'm 45 miles north of Denver, and I understand it will still be some more months until they are full power on Lookout Mtn.

There is something I learned today versus the Hisense model and the Insignia model. With the Hisense, I had been using a line amp (12dB) to improve the Denver signals. I left that configuration intact for the Insignia, however, I noticed the Insignia on Tuesday and Wednesday evenings just wouldn't lock on 4, 7, & 20. It's true, there were some days I couldn't get the Hisense to lock on them either. This puzzled me though, so I disconnected the line amp and reconnected the antenna coax directly to the Insignia. Finally, this morning I was able to get the Insignia to decode them. I think the electronic technology in the Insignia is so much better than what's in the Hisense that any signal amplification was too much for it and it was interfering with the signal. Once I eliminated the line amp, I saw an immediate signal improvement. I think it helps me also that I am further from Denver, meaning I don't have to move the antenna around as much for the various signals.

I am a member of WTFDA (Worldwide TV-FM Dx Assn, with hq in Somersville, CT), a non-profit hobby club that monitors long distance reception of tv-fm signals. The atv-dtv transition is the number one subject in the club right now. There are dtv stb model reviews continuously ongoing with various members, if you care to read up on them. Here are the club's direct links to the dtv information....

The club's mainpage...
http://www.wtfda.org/

Scroll down a little on the main page and you will see images of the different stb's on the market, where you click on the link to read the review.

The section for DTV topics...
http://www.wtfda.info/forumdisplay.php?f=45

You can sign up to be a member of that forum also, without being a member of the club. THEN, you can leave comments or questions on particular subject threads, if you care to.

Jim Thomas
Milliken, Colorado

BTW, where is the digital signal for KPXC-DT 43-1? Are they supposed to flash-cut to digital in February 09?

Jim Thomas
Milliken, Colorado

BTW, where is the digital signal for KPXC-DT 43-1? Are they supposed to flash-cut to digital in February 09?


I'm not sure they have an approved Construction Permit. They have built nothing and are likely to be off the air then.

CEB II,

I got a single coupon on Tuesday and went to the Loveland Best Buy and picked up their Insignia NS-DXA1 stb. Of course the Insignia is the Best Buy house brand and is a clone of the Zenith with the 6th generation LG chip in it. Up until the Insignia, I had been using a USDTV Hisense model (mfg 2005), with a 4th generation chip. It didn't have much tolerance for moving the antenna very much (a CM 4228 on a mast @ 20' with an RS rotator).

Anyway, the one thing I have noted is that the Insignia is much more tolerant of the antenna not being *dead on* to the tower heading. Compared to the Hisense model, the Insignia also sees the signal much easier. Last night it was having trouble decoding 4, 7, & 20, but then I'm 45 miles north of Denver, and I understand it will still be some more months until they are full power on Lookout Mtn.

There is something I learned today versus the Hisense model and the Insignia model. With the Hisense, I had been using a line amp (12dB) to improve the Denver signals. I left that configuration intact for the Insignia, however, I noticed the Insignia on Tuesday and Wednesday evenings just wouldn't lock on 4, 7, & 20. It's true, there were some days I couldn't get the Hisense to lock on them either. This puzzled me though, so I disconnected the line amp and reconnected the antenna coax directly to the Insignia. Finally, this morning I was able to get the Insignia to decode them. I think the electronic technology in the Insignia is so much better than what's in the Hisense that any signal amplification was too much for it and it was interfering with the signal. Once I eliminated the line amp, I saw an immediate signal improvement. I think it helps me also that I am further from Denver, meaning I don't have to move the antenna around as much for the various signals.

I am a member of WTFDA (Worldwide TV-FM Dx Assn, with hq in Somersville, CT), a non-profit hobby club that monitors long distance reception of tv-fm signals. The atv-dtv transition is the number one subject in the club right now. There are dtv stb model reviews continuously ongoing with various members, if you care to read up on them. Here are the club's direct links to the dtv information....

The club's mainpage...
http://www.wtfda.org/

Scroll down a little on the main page and you will see images of the different stb's on the market, where you click on the link to read the review.

The section for DTV topics...
http://www.wtfda.info/forumdisplay.php?f=45

You can sign up to be a member of that forum also, without being a member of the club. THEN, you can leave comments or questions on particular subject threads, if you care to.

Jim Thomas
Milliken, Colorado

Thanks,

Carl Beutler
Arvada, CO

I have DirecTV HD and still get the West coast feed of CBS (complete with 1 minute warning banner every half-hour) so was able to get Jericho in HD without it being mangled by the election cut-in.

I'm guessing that D* doesn't really have the CBS West coast feed. You are getting one of the west coast affiliates. Out of curiosity, which affiliate are you being allowed to get?

1 minute warning banner?

I found out what's up with KPXC-DT 43-1....

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/getattachment_exh.cgi?exhibit_id=619644

Jim Thomas
Milliken, Colorado

I'm guessing that D* doesn't really have the CBS West coast feed. You are getting one of the west coast affiliates. Out of curiosity, which affiliate are you being allowed to get?

1 minute warning banner?

The warning banner is on the mpeg2 feeds, which indicates that those channels are going away. If you switch to the mpeg4, the warning banner is not shown. The older HR10-250 can receive the mpeg2 signals, but as you probably know,
only the newer model receivers can process mpeg4. Yes, both the mpeg2 and mpeg4 signals are the LA CBS, NBC, ABC and FOX feeds.

Originally Posted by mrradiohead
CEB II,

I got a single coupon on Tuesday and went to the Loveland Best Buy and picked up their Insignia NS-DXA1 stb. Of course the Insignia is the Best Buy house brand and is a clone of the Zenith with the 6th generation LG chip in it. Up until the Insignia, I had been using a USDTV Hisense model (mfg 2005), with a 4th generation chip. It didn't have much tolerance for moving the antenna very much (a CM 4228 on a mast @ 20' with an RS rotator).


OK, what does the envelope containing the coupons look like?
I think Ernie posted when they turned on the coupon site, and I signed up for coupons that same day. But I haven't seen any coupons come to my house. The site was having issues so I did a "check status", and it says that my coupons have been mailed. I'm always worried that I'll be the lucky one who never sees them (since I am fully OTA).

Oh yeah, mrradiohead, does that Insignia output component HD, HDMI? I actually only need component at this time, but I will get a projector within a year. I one point, I thought the coupons would only be good towards units that only output 480i for old TVs. I'm hoping that is not the case, since I'm using a SIR T-150 (1st gen I believe) STB. It works OK for the most part, but any issues with PSIP data seem to make it do strange things, like show good signal strength, but only show "No Signal" on the screen, or show a picture but no sound (I have this on 25-1 and 41-16 at this point). And the thing gets HOT, so I'd like to save it for a TV that is not used much, and replace it on my HDTV monitor with a 6th gen unit. I also think a 6th gen unit may help me with KRMA and KDBI.

Thanks for any insights. Greg

I wondering where this "new location" is... I have an idea..............

Here's a list of CECB units (not sure how up to date or accurate it is)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_CECB_units

Looks like most are composite only (including Insignia and Echostar). Only a very few even have S-video (and anything better than that wouldn't qualify for the coupon).

Well I checked my coupon status also and it says the coupons are mailed and I should receive them in 2 to 3 weeks if I haven't already received them. I haven't and I applied on like day 2 of the program. I told the wife not to throw any mail away without having me review it first. I'm afraid she will think it is just more junk mail.

I got the coupon yesterday, but it looks like there aren't that many converters in stores yet. Circuit City only has the Zenith DTT900 for $59 and Walmart has a different unit for $49. My card is only good through May. I think I'll wait until Lookout mountaiin is broadcasting to see if there's decent enough reception in Boulder to dump Comcast and go OTA only...and if not, be able to return the converter and antenna.

Got my coupons and will be picking up two of the Zenith DTT900s which look to be the ATSC boxes to beat.

Got mine too. As much as the impatient little kid in me would love to run out and pick up a couple of those LG boxes to play with, I don't like the cheesy Now/Next EPG it has. So I'm gonna wait for one of the boxes with a full 7-day EPG to become available. And right now, I'm leaning towards the Coship N9900T.

I don't like the cheesy Now/Next EPG it [the LG STB]has.

That bothers me too. On the other hand, the RF sensitivity of these units (sold under the Zenith and Insignia brands) appears to be the best yet, which can be an advantage for those of us out in the radio wilds -- in my case, northern Colorado.

In any event, is the EIT data that is currently being transmitted by most DTV outlets actually sufficient to fill a 7-day EPG?


Jim McCauley

It's possible. But the most I've seen from a station around here is 12 hours worth of data. Even so, it would still be nice to have a full EPG so you can see what's on other channels at a glance. With the LG box, you've got to actually change channels to see EPG data for that channel.

The Now/Next is better than I have now. With my analog set, I get no programming guide.

Got my coupons and will be picking up two of the Zenith DTT900s which look to be the ATSC boxes to beat.

Say, when you get those Zenith boxes, if it wouldn't be too much trouble, I'd really appreciate knowing if the RF coax output will transmit stereo audio to the old TV it is hooked up to. Lots of folks seem to have an opinion on whether it will or not, but I haven't seen anyone state that they tried it and it did or did not work.

Thanks in advance.

Say, when you get those Zenith boxes, if it wouldn't be too much trouble, I'd really appreciate knowing if the RF coax output will transmit stereo audio to the old TV it is hooked up to. Lots of folks seem to have an opinion on whether it will or not, but I haven't seen anyone state that they tried it and it did or did not work.

No - mono only over RF.

If you didn't already know, no S-Video output, either.

Five jacks on the back - antenna in, RF out, Video out, L & R audio out.

Picked up both of mine Saturday night at Circuit City - they had about six more.

I'm very impressed - with a pair of rabbit ears, it picks up all the RP stations, and KWGN and KDVR from Lookout.

Of course even when pointed in that direction, not a whiff of KRMA-DT.

Also, having had a Coship-made satellite receiver, I'd recommend the Zenith box.

No - mono only over RF.

If you didn't already know, no S-Video output, either.

Five jacks on the back - antenna in, RF out, Video out, L & R audio out.

Picked up both of mine Saturday night at Circuit City - they had about six more.

I'm very impressed - with a pair of rabbit ears, it picks up all the RP stations, and KWGN and KDVR from Lookout.

Of course even when pointed in that direction, not a whiff of KRMA-DT.

Also, having had a Coship-made satellite receiver, I'd recommend the Zenith box.

Thanks for the verification of RF output sound capabilities. The Zenith units main selling point appears to be strictly the performance of their ATSC tuner.

I'm very impressed - with a pair of rabbit ears, it picks up all the RP stations, and KWGN and KDVR from Lookout.

Of course even when pointed in that direction, not a whiff of KRMA-DT.


:( I'm not surprised, but I was hoping for an ATSC miracle.

The warning banner is on the mpeg2 feeds, which indicates that those channels are going away. If you switch to the mpeg4, the warning banner is not shown.

Ah, OK, now I know what you are referencing. FOr a moment I though the TV station was putting out some kind of warning every moment. I just couldn't figure out what. Not having D*, the light bulb just didn't come on.

Got my coupons and will be picking up two of the Zenith DTT900s which look to be the ATSC boxes to beat.

I downloaded the two documents that Zenith put on their website. They really do not say much about the product. If they would have made the manual available for downloading....

So, I found the following review:

http://www.hdtvexpert.com/pages_b/Zenith_DTT900%20.html

This guy likes it. Can't really tell from the review if the unit does or doesn't support the full EPG. Based upon another article that I found, Congress did not require that these coupon boxes support the complete guide, fearing that it would raise the price too high.

There is also a forum topic on this box as well:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=948767

I just read in the FCC's database that KPXC is requesting a digital STA to operate on KDEN's tower. They are apparently abandoning Mt. Morrison. They state they can have a digital operation up and running by October 2008 if the STA is granted with permanent facilities operational by 2-17-09.

I downloaded the two documents that Zenith put on their website. They really do not say much about the product. If they would have made the manual available for downloading....


I may just have such a manual... http://abi.s3.amazonaws.com/Zenith_DTT900_Manual_(draft).pdf Keep in mind it's an early draft, so it may mention some stuff that isn't in the final product.

I may just have such a manual... http://abi.s3.amazonaws.com/Zenith_DTT900_Manual_(draft).pdf Keep in mind it's an early draft, so it may mention some stuff that isn't in the final product.

Thanks, I have downloaded it. And yes, the rear panel has an optional smart antenna connection, which is not available on the final product.

MILEHIGHMIKE, do you have the article and/or FCC link for this?

I forget, where is KDEN's tower again?

Here's the full text of the document:
KPXC-TV, Denver, Colorado (Facility ID No. 68695)
Request for Special Temporary Authority
Exhibit 21
February 2008
____________________________________________________________ __________
Paxson Denver License, Inc. (“ION”), licensee of the above-referenced television
station and pursuant to Section 73.1635 of the Commission’s rules, hereby respectfully
requests Special Temporary Authority (“STA”) to commence digital operations at
variance from KPXC’s DTV construction permit. KPXC-TV is not operating digitally.
ION has been unable to implement KPXC’s DTV construction permit due to ongoing
litigation regarding the proposed new tower at Mt. Morrison from which KPXC-DT
would transmit. Although the would-be tower owner received initial local zoning board
approval from the Board of Commissioners of Jefferson County in 2003, a local citizen’s
group appealed this decision to Jefferson County District Court, which later affirmed. In
2006, however, the intermediate Colorado Appeals Court overturned the District Court’s
decision and ordered the case back to the Board of Commissioners for additional public
hearings and evaluation. Rather than comply, the Board of Commissioners and the
would-be tower owner appealed to the Colorado Supreme Court, who, in late 2007,
denied certiorari.1 As such, the Board of Commissioners is compelled to start the
zoning process anew and host open public meetings, which have yet to be scheduled.
ION has no expectation that either the zoning process will be completed or the actual
tower constructed prior to February 18, 2009. Indeed, given the posture of the Appeals
Court remand and the total change in personnel on the Board of Commissioners, it is
questionable whether the Board of Commissioners will approve construction of the new
tower. Moreover, in the event that the tower is approved, further litigation and delay
virtually is certain. Accordingly, for purposes of compliance with DTV construction
obligations, ION cannot reasonably rely on the availability of a new tower at Mt.
Morrison.
ION consequently is proposing to construct and operate digital facilities from an
existing tower on which KDEN-DT (Longmont, Colorado) operates. ION believes this
site is the best of its few alternatives. The Commission undoubtedly is familiar with the
tower litigation efforts of citizen’s groups in Denver, and their efforts at Mt. Morrison and
elsewhere have rendered preferable alternatives unavailable.2 Operation from this site
– especially until the Commission lifts its freeze on service expansion – will
unfortunately result in lost service due to the combination of the freeze on expansion,
relocation of the site, and the shift in the service area. Based upon ION’s calculations,
however, the proposed operations at the KDEN-DT site (that is, once they are
maximized) would have the least amount of service losses as compared to other
possible sites. ION’s analysis on this aspect is a matter of record.
The tower at the proposed site has all necessary government approvals and
already is constructed. This will allow ION to place the proposed facilities into operation
relatively quickly (as soon as October, 2008). Operation from this tower would advance
the public’s interest in grouping transmission antennas. The Commission generally has
supported the grouping of antennas by broadcasters in a particular market.5
Grant of the requested STA would serve the public interest by facilitating the
commencement of KPXC-DT’s digital service to the community. The proposed
operations comply with the Commission’s DTV STA standards. The station’s proposed
coverage meets the community of license requirements and does not exceed that
resulting from the authorized parameters.6 In the unlikely event that unacceptable
interference is caused, ION is willing to take all reasonable steps to eliminate such
prohibited interference, including modifying operating parameters or ceasing operations,
if necessary. ION understands that grant of STA does not provide any permanent
authority to operate the Station in the manner proposed. ION intends to submit a
construction permit application for these same facilities after the Commission issues an
order in response to ION’s petition seeking modification of the post-transition allotment
(petition filed in MB Docket No. 87-268 on October 26, 2007) but no later than
March 17, 2008 (as required by the Third DTV Periodic Review).
For these reasons, ION respectfully requests grant of this STA.
It can be found at: http:\\fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/getattachment_exh.cgi?exhibit_id=622841

KDEN's transmitter is in Longmont. Here's the link to show its location:
www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=TV245367.html

Perfect, thank you. I think I can get KDEN at my location, I will have to check sometime.

Great, I got my coupons in the mail today (3/11/08). They have an expiration date of 5/28/08. So, thanks to the slow processing and mailing, I have a couple of weeks less than 90 days to find a suitable converter box.

Here's an article from a TV trade magazine about the nearing completion of the LCG Tower. Some very interesting tidbits in it, including another report that KMGH (as well as the already confirmed KCNC) will be going HD from their studio as well before the end of the year, and a specific date for LCG to be operational. Should be a banner year for HD in Denver in addition to the tower:)

http://www.broadcastingcable.com/article/CA6539708.html

Great info UH! Love the part about PS3's as news clip servers.
I think this is the first I have heard of a hard date for the antenna to go live. April 14 is not that far away!

And the first hard date for KCNC's HD news - April 21. BTW - I haven't heard back from Mr. DeHaven about the potential tour, but that's not surprising to me. They've got a lot going on right now. If he hasn't replied by the end of April, I'll ping him again.

April 14?? I wonder if this means I will be able to take down that "temporary" antenna set up I lashed to a pole on the deck in my back yard back in late 2000. That "temporary" set up is a part of the 'landscape' of the house now. The neighbors might think I have moved if I take it down.
:D

Great article. The Playstation part made me laugh. You gotta do what you gotta do...

I can't believe this will all be over in a month. It will be so weird to be able to watch KTVD and KCNC again (I've actually been pretty lucky because those are the only two channels I'm missing way out here). And I'll finally be able to use the $120 Hauppauge HDTV card I bought for my PC last year. It has an older tuner on it, so I haven't been able to receive a damn thing with it.

So has it been confirmed that all 4 stations will go live on that date?

Location norhteast Longmont near 17th and Pace:
With my TERK-TV55 and new AntennasDirect DB8 installed:

Crisp:
4 KCNC
9 KUSA
12 KBDI
14 KTFD
20 KTVD
25 KDEN
41 KRMT
50 KCEC
53 KWHD
59 KPXC

Snowy:
2 KWGN
6 KRMA
7 KMGH
31 KDVR

Crisp:
2.1 KWGN-DT
14.1 KTFD-DT
25.1 KDEN-DT
31.1 KDVR-DT

The reception for PBS channel 6 was degraded. Someone had suggested that I 'gang' additional Pico Macom UVSJ UHF VHF Band Separator/Combiner (capping off the unused UHF inputs)

The COAX connector from the antenna to the 'homerun-videoamp' came off, so I probably should find some good quality COAX connectors and replace it.
I am not as good at making COAX terminations.

I must be aimed toward LookoutMt and MorrisMt and not RepublicPlaza.
In light of the news about 4 stations to LookoutMt, that is a good thing!

I hope PBS channels 6 (KRMA) and 12 (KBDI) can make similar improvements, soon!

Here's an article from a TV trade magazine about the nearing completion of the LCG Tower. Some very interesting tidbits in it, including another report that KMGH (as well as the already confirmed KCNC) will be going HD from their studio as well before the end of the year, and a specific date for LCG to be operational. Should be a banner year for HD in Denver in addition to the tower:)

http://www.broadcastingcable.com/article/CA6539708.html

Yep, got the physical issue in my hands. Got it yesterday, but didn't get a chance to read it.

Nice article. About time the situation had some good trade rag coverage.

April 14?? I wonder if this means I will be able to take down that "temporary" antenna set up I lashed to a pole on the deck in my back yard back in late 2000. That "temporary" set up is a part of the 'landscape' of the house now. The neighbors might think I have moved if I take it down.
:D

Any vines climbing the pole about to take over the antenna, considering how long it has been there? :D

So has it been confirmed that all 4 stations will go live on that date?
I looked at the FCC 387 transition plans for Lake Cedar Group members.

KCNC filed 2/15/08 (4-1 on UHF 35)
Expected to be operating from Lookout on 4/15/08 at 350KW
Expected to meet final facilities deadline of 5/15/08.

KTFD filed 2/19/08. (20-1 on UHF 19)
Expected to begin operation from Lookout on or about 4/13/08.
Final facilities deadline is 5/18/08

KUSA filed 2/19/08 (9-1 Transition UHF 16, Final VHF 9)
Expected to begin operation from Lookout on or about 4/13/08 at reduced power. The UHF 16 construction permit is for 1000KW. The plan said they would request a lower power level, but I can't find anything that says what level they are requesting.
Final facilities deadline is 2/17/09 (That will be on VHF 9)

KMGH filed 2/19/08 (7-1 Transition UHF 17, Final VHF 7)
Their plan calls for the installation of their post transition equipment which broadcasts on VHF 7 to be completed in June of 2008 and to begin operation on 2/18/2009.
I cannot find anything to indicate that they have committed to making any changes to their transition facilities which use UHF 17.

Does anyone know anything different?

I hope PBS channels 6 (KRMA) and 12 (KBDI) can make similar improvements, soon!

After transition KBDI will be broadcasting on VHF 13, instead of UHF 38, where they are right now. That means that we can probably expect different coverage. The VHF transmitter will be at lower power than the current UHF one. The hope is that the coverage will be better.

The FCC 387 form filed on 2/21/08 by KRMA says that
ROCKY MOUNTAIN PUBLIC BROADASTING NETWORK, INC. (RMPBN) HAS COMPLETED CONSTRUCTION OF, AND IS NOW OPERATING, KRMA-DT'S FINAL, POST-TRANSITION DTV FACILITY, PURSUANT TO ITS PENDING LICENSE APPLICATION (BLEDT-20070806AED) AND GRANTED PERMIT (BMPEDT-20061205AAG). RMPBN INTENDS TO CONTINUE TO OPERATE KRMA-DT'S EXISTING FACILITY AND NOT THE FACILITY SET FORTH IN THE DTV TABLE OF ALLOTMENTS 'APPENDIX B'.

KRMA-DT'S EXISTING, CONSTRUCTED FACILITY DIFFERS FROM APPENDIX B AS FOLLOWS:

ERP: 115 KW
HAAT: 331 M
ANTENNA ID: 76810
LATITUDE: 39-40-17
LONGITUDE: 105-13-06

ON OCTOBER, 26, 2007, RMPBN FILED A PETITION FOR RECONSIDERATION, IN MB DOCKET NO. 87-268, PROPOSING CHANGES TO THE DTV TABLE OF ALLOTMENTS TO MATCH ITS CONSTRUCTED FACILITY, AS NOTED ABOVE.
In my humble opinion, unless they request, and receive, permission to move the antenna up on the tower from the location on the ice bridge, large parts of Louisville, Lafayette, Longmont and communities on the same line from the tower will have great difficulty receiving the station.

I posted the Form 387 info for the Denver metro stations previously. To clarify recent posts:

1. KUSA is moving its low power transmitter from RP to Lookout. They will stay at their low power until 2-17-09 but reception should improve with the Lookout location. They will probably be off the air for a short time for the move. Their construction permit for channel 16 at 1000 kW will not be completed as they are not required to complete this construction since they will be moving back to channel 9 on 2-17-09. On channel 9, they will have 39.6 kW ERP, which should be plenty of power to reach Ft. Collins and the eastern plains.

2. KMGH is also not required to complete its full power construction on channel 17, just like KUSA, as they are moving back to channel 7 on 2-17-09. Their ERP on channel 7 will be 37.4 kW, which, once again, should be plenty of power to reach Ft. Collins and the eastern plains. Unfortunately, KMGH does not plan to move its low power transmitter from RP between now and 2-17-09, so no change in reception will occur with them until they go full power on 2-17-09.

3. KBDI will be moving to channel 13. They have two proposed plans submitted to the FCC. They must coordinate their digital switchover with two other analog stations on channel 13 - one in Pueblo, the other in Nebraska. Once on channel 13, they will have 34.4 kW ERP, which should give them better coverage than they have now due to the VHF frequency. One of their plans is to do the switch to channel 13 effective 2-17-09, the other is to continue on channel 38 for a few months. See number 6, below, for the reason I don't think the latter will happen.

4. Based upon FCC filings, KRMA will stay put on the ice bridge at 115 kW. They have accepted a coverage area smaller than their analog coverage as a result. It is my understanding that they have a specially made antenna from a Canadian company for the ice bridge and to move onto the tower itself raises zoning issues and the need for a new side-mounted antenna.

5. KCNC and KTVD are required to be at full power by 5-18-08 since their final digital channel will not be changing, unlike the situation with KMGH and KUSA, which are going back to their analog channels.

6. A new digital station on channel 38 (KBDI's temp channel) with city of license in Greeley is authorized to begin broadcasting on 2-17-09. If they are able to be up and running on that date (they are not required to since they are new), KBDI must cease operations on channel 38 on 2-17-09 and either be dark for a while until they can begin operations on channel 13 or be ready to be on channel 13 on 2-17-09.

Thanks for the great summary Mike. It looks like we will have plenty to talk about in the OTA forum for the next several months. This thing is starting to (still has?) have a "Who's on first"? feel to it.

4. Based upon FCC filings, KRMA will stay put on the ice bridge at 115 kW. They have accepted a coverage area smaller than their analog coverage as a result. It is my understanding that they have a specially made antenna from a Canadian company for the ice bridge and to move onto the tower itself raises zoning issues and the need for a new side-mounted antenna.

The antenna supplier is RF Technologies of Lewiston, Maine: (http://www.rftechnologies.net/news.html). It's possible that the unit itself is of Canadian manufacture.

Because it's a pylon design, it may not be suited to tower mounting.

As for the reduced coverage, RMPBS president James Morgese maintained at the board meeting of 27 February 2008 that KRMA-DT replicates 95% of the coverage of the analog signal. Apparently, the uncovered 5% is largely on a north-by-northeast vector from Mount Morrison, electromagnetically "shaded" by the rise on which KPXC and its tower and building are sitting.


Jim McCauley

What is an ice bridge?

What is an ice bridge?

An ice bridge is a structure that supports the transmission lines from the tower (where an antenna is usually located) to the cable entry port of the building that houses the transmitter electronics. It's necessary to protect the transmission lines from the severe weather that is typical in many tower locations.


Jim McCauley

As for the reduced coverage, RMPBS president James Morgese maintained at the board meeting of 27 February 2008 that KRMA-DT replicates 95% of the coverage of the analog signal. Apparently, the uncovered 5% is largely on a north-by-northeast vector from Mount Morrison, electromagnetically "shaded" by the rise on which KPXC and its tower and building are sitting.


Jim McCauley

I'll remember this when it is pledge time, oh, wait, I won't know when that is cause I can't get a signal.

What is an ice bridge?

A place that an antenna shouldn't be if anyone had half a brain at KRMA. They went from being the best digital channel to the worst in a matter of a few years.

Anybody know of any recent developments at KDVR-DT 31.2 (physical 32)? Just this week, their signal strength rose significantly here. Used to get them a tad wobbly in the high 60s-low 70s (but never any dropouts or block noise). Now KDVR is rock steady at 87-88 all the time.

...

As for the reduced coverage, RMPBS president James Morgese maintained at the board meeting of 27 February 2008 that KRMA-DT replicates 95% of the coverage of the analog signal ...

Will 95% of their coverage correspond to 95% of their analog viewers? In practice we won't know how well they have served the viewers until next Feb when the majority of them try to receive KRMA with simple antennas and coupon converters.

--- CHAS

What's the deal with the D* AM-21 ota box? Shouldn't it be out by now?

What is an ice bridge?

Here is a photographic example of an ice bridge. The construction crew is standing on it:

http://vidiot.com/images/TVTower/DSC02923.jpg

I think the mast my antenna is on is higher (35') than that ice bridge.:D

Does anybody else have this problem...I live in Littletoon and have my OTA antenna hooked up through my Dish 811 HD receiver. If I watch a bit of OTA channel TV, sometimes, when going back to my Dish channels the receiver will complain that my smartcard doesn't show acccess to the channels. I then have to reboot the stinkin' thing, sometimes multiple times, to fix the problem. It never occurs if I don't view the OTA channels. Of course the Dish techs are worthless. Thanks for any help!

Does anybody else have this problem...I live in Littletoon and have my OTA antenna hooked up through my Dish 811 HD receiver. If I watch a bit of OTA channel TV, sometimes, when going back to my Dish channels the receiver will complain that my smartcard doesn't show acccess to the channels. I then have to reboot the stinkin' thing, sometimes multiple times, to fix the problem. It never occurs if I don't view the OTA channels. Of course the Dish techs are worthless. Thanks for any help!

Happens all the time with the Dish 811 that I own. I posted the issue at SatelliteGuys.com some time back, but only got a few to post their similar experiences. No answers there, but that site is more populated by those looking to get the latest and greatest debugged rather than dealing with problems with old hardware/software. The typical response is "just upgrade to the new receivers".

I've never called Dish support regarding this issue because all of my previous contacts with Dish support have resulted in me talking to some dolt who tries to walk me through his/her queue cards. Dish's first line support is focused on what you've done wrong to cause the problem, rather than on what is wrong with Dish's hardware and software. They are such idiots that they actually sent me a new 811 because they couldn't solve a software problem. Same day the new 811 arrived I got a call from a Dish engineering manager who asked me to try one last thing. Bingo, problem gone. Had to use "restore factory defaults" because their most recent software upgrade at that time had conflicted with some calibration settings I had made to the 811 while operating with a previous version of the software. They apparently fixed their subsequent software updates because none ever conflicted with my settings again.

The wife and I are convinced that the problems we've encountered over the past year with our Dish 811 are being intentionally caused by Dish. They are doing it in an effort to get us so frustrated with our Dish 811 that we will upgrade to their new MPEG 4 receivers. Of course the upgrade will cost us money up front and a higher monthly bill after that. That may be a little paranoid, but I've seen similar comments in posts elsewhere over the past year. Anyway, Dish has us PO'd enough that when Dish finally stops supporting the HDPak on the 811, we'll probably opt for DirectTV or Comcast. Unless, of course, Dish makes us a conversion offer that we can't refuse.

End of Of Topic discussion.

Wow, CEB II, that is EXACTLY the way that I feel about them. I am really eyeing the DirecTV thing. I have had them (Dish Network) for 11 years now, damn near an eternity in the ultra-competitive market they are in. You know, if they would focus on trying to keep their old customers a little more, maybe they wouldn't have to try so hard to dig up so new customers all the time.

I've been gone for 3 months and there's no way I can read everything thats been posted! :eek: However the tower info is great news, I was expecting to have to elevate my antenna when the trees leaf out (4 years ago they were too small to be a concern) but with the different angle of Lookout and the higher power I hope to be OK

What's the deal with the D* AM-21 ota box? Shouldn't it be out by now?

The reason I have been gone is I have gotten heavily involved in testing D* software and hardware, and I can report the AM21 is very close to release. The software for the HR21 to support it was supposed too have gone out in beta this weekend but got pulled at the last minute, we are hoping for next week.

Anybody know of any recent developments at KDVR-DT 31.2 (physical 32)? Just this week, their signal strength rose significantly here. Used to get them a tad wobbly in the high 60s-low 70s (but never any dropouts or block noise). Now KDVR is rock steady at 87-88 all the time.

My KDVR-DT signal is up 2 or 3 points in recent days, nothing significant from my perspective. I don't know that they have done anything different up there, but they could have.

The wife and I are convinced that the problems we've encountered over the past year with our Dish 811 are being intentionally caused by Dish. They are doing it in an effort to get us so frustrated with our Dish 811 that we will upgrade to their new MPEG 4 receivers.

How could you accuse Dish, which is SUCH a NICE company, of being so nefarious?

/sarcasm :D

Seriously, CEB, thanks for your reply about 31.1.

Wow, CEB II, that is EXACTLY the way that I feel about them. I am really eyeing the DirecTV thing. I have had them (Dish Network) for 11 years now, damn near an eternity in the ultra-competitive market they are in. You know, if they would focus on trying to keep their old customers a little more, maybe they wouldn't have to try so hard to dig up so new customers all the time.

Yes, I've been a Dish customer (subscriber) since 1999 and was pleased with their overall service up until about 2005. Of course their phone-in technical support hasn't been competent for many years. Dish seems to have altered their corporate persona about 3 years ago and I'm not pleased with the "new" Dish.

An update on KCNC from its most recent FCC filing (an excerpt):
At this time, CBS seeks special temporary authority to operate, beginning approximately April 14, 2008, from the new Lookout Mountain facility at reduced power for an initial period of 60 days. CBS proposes to transmit at 50% (500 kW) of the effective radiated power as authorized in the KCNC-DT construction permit. The signal from the new site will greatly improve the KCNC digital service to the public from what is being provided from the current temporary site.
This is a change from a previous FCC filing asking for 350kW.

In its most recent FCC filing, KUSA is requesting, in their move of channel 16's facilities to Lookout, to increase the ERP to 37 kW. From the service contour coverage map associated with this filing, the 37 kW signal will reach to just south of Ft. Collins but includes Loveland and Greeley. I couldn't find a date KUSA wants to make this change but perhaps I overlooked it.

IKCNC filed 2/15/08 (4-1 on UHF 35)
Expected to be operating from Lookout on 4/15/08 at 350KW
Expected to meet final facilities deadline of 5/15/08.
That makes fchambers @ 4/1/08 and ktmglen @ 4/18/08 close to winning our On-air pool! (I think we should award the winner to the person closest to the date. (This isn't the Price-is-Right!)

On Air Pool (http://www.santellaproductions.com/dtv/Onairdate.htm)

This isn't the Price-is-Right!

I agree.

As a side note (I don't think this has been posted), KDVR has filed with the FCC its intention to increase its ERP to a full 1 mW. Technically, this should have to be completed by 5-18-09, but even if they don't make that date, at least their intentions are there.

Hmm, looks I overshot by a couple of months..

Is the pool for signals from Lookout or full power signals from Lookout? I think it might be safe for me to take a guess now as the nimby's aren't in control anymore. :D

How bout 6-01-08, slight delay factored in for the flange factor. :rolleyes:

That makes fchambers @ 4/1/08 and ktmglen @ 4/18/08 close to winning our On-air pool! (I think we should award the winner to the person closest to the date. (This isn't the Price-is-Right!)

On Air Pool (http://www.santellaproductions.com/dtv/Onairdate.htm)

Well, I for one, disagree! Closest without going over....those were the rules I was playing by when I made my ohsoclose forecast. To be penalized now for a change in the rules is unfair. I want my delegates seated! Oh wait, that's OT...

Frederic (don't say much, but still lurking...)

Is the pool for signals from Lookout or full power signals from Lookout? I think it might be safe for me to take a guess now as the nimby's aren't in control anymore. :D

How bout 6-01-08, slight delay factored in for the flange factor. :rolleyes:

I thought it was for the first full power broadcast. I think that makes it KCNC around 6/14/08, correct?

What's the deal with the D* AM-21 ota box? Shouldn't it be out by now?

Still no date for sale but I was lucky to get one for a DBS Talk field trial. It works as well or better then the HR20 OTA.

The testers are now able to discuss:
http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=123012

I have no issues with the Republic Plaza or Lookout signals. I actually get KBDI better on the AM-21 then on my HR20!

I thought it was for the first full power broadcast. I think that makes it KCNC around 6/14/08, correct?

All of this Price is Right sqabbling is nonsense. As a matter of fact, the do-over prediction contest is way out of line. If we had kept the original one in play, I would claim victory as the most pessimistic. :D

Don

If someone can send us a link to the post with the rules, then please do so, since I can't remember exactly what they were (Full Power or First on-air, and Closest or Closest without going over?) But, since I hold the list, and if we can't find it or if we didn't post it, I say it's closest over or under. If the post says otherwise, we go with that.

It's not like you win a Buick or anything ;)

***Update: Here's the first post I could find on starting the pool. There's no mention that I could find setting the rules for closest date without going over or full-power vs. first on-air. ***

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9265592&highlight=merry+christmas#post9265592

I pretty much reviewed every post since Ernie's link and I can't find any discussion of pool rules or whether the winning date was closest without going over. However, I did find at least two pool entries (gakon and TheBert, not mine) that specifically stated that their pool date was for first full power broadcast from LOM. Several others provided pool dates at analog cutoff because they didn't think the stations would go full power DTV while still broadcasting an analog signal. These pool dates are therefore implied or defacto full power dates for the pool.

There were some posts calling for clarification of what the pool date meant, but the clarification mainly dealt with a "tower completion date" versus a "broadcast date". Nothing conclusive.

How about two winners. One for the first broadcast (closest date either way) and one for the first full power broadcast (closest date either way).

I guess I'm hung up on the significance of a full power broadcast because that is what metro-Denver has been lacking. Almost all of our analog broadcast TV stations have made a digital broadcast at some power level, but we have yet to have one of the eight major stations broadcast DTV at full power, like they have in the other 30 largest DMAs. The LCG tower wasn't just another DTV broadcast tower, it was a tower to allow metro-Denver to receive full power DTV. Thus, while tower completion is a major milestone, the goal was and still is full power DTV for metro-Denver.