We seem to be forgetting who originally started the pool...

On-air Pool
I think it's time for pool. I'll keep track.

When will the tower first transmit, even in a test mode (closest without going over), :

I have 11/03/2004
My wife has 12/31/2004 (She "let" me go to all these hearings and listened to me vent afterwards, so she gets to join the pool)

Now I just need to figure out what the winner will get.

Even though Ernie later took ownership of the pool, one would assume the old rules still apply.

We seem to be forgetting who originally started the pool...



Even though Ernie later took ownership of the pool, one would assume the old rules still apply.

Woo hoo! Thanks for the research Symbios! You get 10% of the prize.

Uhhh, btw, what exactly IS the prize??? Best that I could find was a hot dog. Oh well, you can have a bite.

-Frederic-

I will gladly give up my chance at a free hot dog to make the rules consistent - I'm OK with first broadcast. I never liked the "without going over" rule, but I'll play along.

We seem to be forgetting who originally started the pool...



Even though Ernie later took ownership of the pool, one would assume the old rules still apply.

Well no, Ernie took ownership of the NEW pool he suggested we start (12/06). I believe we had already exceeded all the pool dates in the old pool by the time Ernie suggested the new pool. No rules were formulated for the new pool; however, gakon has made several appeals for clarity in the new pool. Perhaps a reverse osmosis system would provide that clarity.

I think with the latest info, we should abide by "Ron's Law". 1st station transmitting anything and without going over the date.

Except, I may have to ask Bill Clinton the definition of 'Over'. Does that mean if they start on April 15 and you listed April 16 are you 'over'? Or is it, if you listed April 14, the start date is over?

I think if you listed April 14 and they start April 15 you lose. Thoughts?

Good grief!

Good grief!
I second that.

I think with the latest info, we should abide by "Ron's Law". 1st station transmitting anything and without going over the date.

Except, I may have to ask Bill Clinton the definition of 'Over'. Does that mean if they start on April 15 and you listed April 16 are you 'over'? Or is it, if you listed April 14, the start date is over?

I think if you listed April 14 and they start April 15 you lose. Thoughts?

Well, given that the rewards are so high (and clearly I have a stake in this and could be perceived as being biased), I must recuse myself from these discussions. (Always taking the high ground!)

-F-

I just glad this is all we are complaining about is the rule set for our pool...:)

The congress needed to step in to get the tower built; the supreme court will need to settle the poll.

--- CHAS

...There were some posts calling for clarification of what the pool date meant, but the clarification mainly dealt with a "tower completion date" versus a "broadcast date". Nothing conclusive...

Who cares? When's the bar-b-cue? :p

I think with the latest info, we should abide by "Ron's Law". 1st station transmitting anything and without going over the date.

Except, I may have to ask Bill Clinton the definition of 'Over'. Does that mean if they start on April 15 and you listed April 16 are you 'over'? Or is it, if you listed April 14, the start date is over?

I think if you listed April 14 and they start April 15 you lose. Thoughts?

Even if we resolve all of those issues, it still doesn't address the issue of what to do about the 'hanging chads'. Perhaps we need a 're-vote'. Given the magnitude of the prize, it is important that we do this right.

(My vote is for the first 'full power' telecasts, but that may be because my guess date was in late August.......I was always in the competition for 'most pessimistic' along with a few others, although I think I still have a lock on the 'biggest curmudgeon' award:mad:).

I campaigned under the rules as I understood them at the time and i insist that the Committee seat my delegates in accordance with those rules, whatever they were.

I campaigned under the rules as I understood them at the time and i insist that the Committee seat my delegates in accordance with those rules, whatever they were.


Maybe we could do a last-minute mail-in ballot :)

Now, do we want a caucus or a primary?

As far as the original pool goes, yes I remember the postings, in my opinion, the statement was "first broadcasting from Lookout".
Which could mean:

1. Any full power signal
2. a test signal
3. first xmitter broadcasting.

So to be fair to everyone, just simplify the pool. So if KCNC broadcasts anything on or around the th of April, then whoever is closest to that date, regardless if someone picks the th, th etc.

I'm not saying, just saying. My two cents.

that spell checker removed my dates!

1. on or around the 15th of April
2. regardless if someone picks the 16th, 17th etc.

or something like that..

How about awarding for the closest date (over or under) to the first full time broadcasting from the new tower.

I didn't believe they would build the tower during the winter months and expected it to be ready this coming fall. It appears that full time broadcasting on the UHF channels will occur before this summer. So I was totally off base.

--- CHAS

If you look at the dates in the pool, most picked mid-year. Did anybody really think they would go full-power from the new tower right from the start? They couldn't as they would still be broadcasting analog and that would put them way over the RF limits in the area. I really think it was for 1st signal emitted, not full power.

FYI, the lower 2 sets of lights are blinking on the new tower tonight. They are really bright too. I hope they aimed them right at Deb's house... kinda' like Cramer apartment in the Seinfeld episode, 'Kenny Rogers Roasters'!!! haha!

On Air Pool (http://www.santellaproductions.com/dtv/Onairdate.htm)

Either my analog shutdown clock is wrong or your analog clock shutdown clock is wrong.

Your clock has it ending one day sooner than mine. As I understand it, at the END of the day on 2/17/09, the analog must be off. I think my clock is set to include the 17th, where yours might not? Is yours set for the end of the 17th?

I haven't sat down with a calendar and figured out days. But, dtvanswers.com shows the same days remaining as I do.

Either my analog shutdown clock is wrong or your analog clock shutdown clock is wrong.My clock was timing down to one sec after midnight on the 17th, not the end of the 17th. I guess stations have until the end of the day. ;)

My clock was timing down to one sec after midnight on the 17th, not the end of the 17th. I guess stations have until the end of the day. ;)

My guess is that stations will take full advantage of keeping their analog on the air as long as they can. If the station doesn't have to do some channel swapping, where the analog might come down earlier, they'll just eat up every possible analog second that they can.

None of the stations in my market are going back to their analog channel, so around here they can all stay on until the stroke of midnight :)

Why don't we just scrap the current pool, declaring fchambers and ktmglen go-winners (assuming a station will start broadcasting in April, Colorado weather permitting), and start a couple of new pools?

Pool #1 - The date KPXC will go on the air (not testing) digital.

Pool #2 - The station that will shut off analog first and the exact time it occurs.

Both pools will keep this thread going well beyond posts reporting being able to receive KCNC or KTVD with rabbit ears in April.

:D:D:D

None of the stations in my market are going back to their analog channel, so around here they can all stay on until the stroke of midnight :)

Stroke of midnight is too late. 11:59:59 PM is just fine though.

What'd you think this was, a democracy? :)

I'm not keeping the new pool. You guys beat me up on the last one! ;)

New post about Mt. Morrision on sCARE's website.

http://www.c-a-r-e.org/

New post about Mt. Morrision on sCARE's website.

http://www.c-a-r-e.org/

Thank god for Public Law No. 109-466. These people are out of their minds. I just wish KRMA had learned their lesson on LM. It took a federal law to make the LCG tower happen. I have no idea why they thought they would have better luck with Scare somewhere else. Maybe if sCare pushes hard enough, KRMA will have to take down their ice bridge transmitter and finally move to LM like they should have from the inception of the law.

Ernie, is www.c-a-r-e.org your home page? LOL

I stopped going to that stupid web site full of LIES a while back after this "Miss Carney Goes To Washington" crap.

Thank god for Public Law No. 109-466. These people are out of their minds. I just wish KRMA had learned their lesson on LM. It took a federal law to make the LCG tower happen. I have no idea why they thought they would have better luck with Scare somewhere else. Maybe if sCare pushes hard enough, KRMA will have to take down their ice bridge transmitter and finally move to LM like they should have from the inception of the law.

Hear, hear! But if y'all can hold down the bile long enough, those links on SCARE's page offer lots of amusing insight into what happened with the Mount Morrison decision -- that is, if you can stay awake long enough to read between the lines.

The state Supreme Court held only that the county commissioners failed to offer the public a sufficient opportunity to comment during the original hearings concerning new Mount Morrison facilities. The court didn't overturn the commission at all; rather, it sentenced the board to sit through several more hours of insanity -- uh, I mean, public comment! -- on the subject.

The planning staff memo to the county commission is especially delicious in places. In part, they tell the commissioners that:
1) Eldorado Mountain is unsuitable for towers because it isn't zoned for that use.
2) Squaw Mountain is zoned for broadcast towers, but there are conflicting expert opinions about its technical feasibility.
3) Because it would reduce the total number of towers, the Mount Morrison application is "consistent with (county) regulations."
4) Last but certainly not least, the document quotes virtually the entire text of PL 109-466, and then says the law "arguably eliminates zoning restrictions for digital television location on Lookout Mountain." Even though the next sentence in the memo casts doubt on the feasibility of additional towers/buildings on Lookout, this paragraph all but invites KRMA to do exactly as you've suggested should the commission reverse itself after the new hearing.

Sounds as if the planning staff is beginning to think that listening to the Mountain Moonbats is gettin' kinda old.

Roast in peace, SCARE. :D

Friggin KGWN broadcasting the NCAA tourney in SD... :rolleyes:

The NCAA tournament just started and they're putting different games on the HD (4.1) channel vs. the SD channel. Just a FYI. A great use of sub-channels to show more games. Kansas/Portland St. on SD, Xavier/Georgia on 4.1.

Ernie, is www.c-a-r-e.org your home page? LOLNo, I just check once a day to see if there's any new stupid posts. I do have to laugh at the line about the hearing being on April 1st. We need a large turnout! I wish this were an April Fools joke but it is not. Now, that's funny!

The NCAA tournament just started and they're putting different games on the HD (4.1) channel vs. the SD channel. Just a FYI. A great use of sub-channels to show more games. Kansas/Portland St. on SD, Xavier/Georgia on 4.1.


Grrrr....wish i could get that broadcast up here.

Don't believe it, but I got a call back from one of KGWN's engineers. They fixed the feed...unfortunately am stuck with the Kansas game. Oh well.

I also let the engineer know about the lack of correct clock data and guide info on their feed. Who knows, maybe they'll actually try to fix it now. Hope springs eternal.

Edit: I give up...they're back to SD again.

Grrrr....wish i could get that broadcast up here.
The online feed on cbssports.com is fairly decent. It's free. You can watch ANY game.
That Xavier/GA game left us in Denver pretty quick, and then both channels 4 and 4.1 were showing KU. But if they used the subchannels, they could show alot of bball. Huge potential.

I have the online feed going, but it's pretty choppy for me. I just wish they (KGWN) would get their act together. This is par for the course for them.

I have an idea for a new pool. How about we pick the date that Deb Carney finally admits she is going to stop working 'for' (S)CARE and has decided to get a real job?

As for the original pool, I am almost positive I chose April 1st, but I can't seem to find my original post.
:D

April Fool?

I have an idea for a new pool. How about we pick the date that Deb Carney finally admits she is going to stop working 'for' (S)CARE and has decided to get a real job?
Since she appears to have lifetime retainer fees, does that mean we have to live longer than her?

Since she appears to have lifetime retainer fees, does that mean we have to live longer than her?

Not only that but since it could be decades, we had better write down the rules too!

The NCAA tournament just started and they're putting different games on the HD (4.1) channel vs. the SD channel. Just a FYI. A great use of sub-channels to show more games. Kansas/Portland St. on SD, Xavier/Georgia on 4.1.

And if you get the D* west-coast feed, you can sometimes get 3 different games at once! I didn't check yesterday, but I know this was the case last year.

Thank god for Public Law No. 109-466. These people are out of their minds. I just wish KRMA had learned their lesson on LM. It took a federal law to make the LCG tower happen. I have no idea why they thought they would have better luck with Scare somewhere else. Maybe if sCare pushes hard enough, KRMA will have to take down their ice bridge transmitter and finally move to LM like they should have from the inception of the law.
I really don't understand what sCARE thinks they have to gain from this fight. The Mt. Morrison tower already exists and isn't going away. The KRMA-DT transmitter is already operational at the site. If they managed to drive KRMA-DT away, it would be back to Lookout Mountain.

So what is their interest in keeping KRMA-DT stuck on the ice bridge?

I really don't understand what sCARE thinks they have to gain from this fight. The Mt. Morrison tower already exists and isn't going away. The KRMA-DT transmitter is already operational at the site. If they managed to drive KRMA-DT away, it would be back to Lookout Mountain.

So what is their interest in keeping KRMA-DT stuck on the ice bridge?

Deb continues to draw a paycheck! Duh!;)

That makes fchambers @ 4/1/08 and ktmglen @ 4/18/08 close to winning our On-air pool! (I think we should award the winner to the person closest to the date. (This isn't the Price-is-Right!)

On Air Pool (http://www.santellaproductions.com/dtv/Onairdate.htm)

Woohoo! Regardless of what the final rules may be, I'm just happy it's happening sooner in the year rather than later in the year. I'm leaning toward first broadcast by any station with their real DTV transmitter and antenna--even if they don't have the kW cranked up all the way. But I'm kinda biased.

On a serious note, has anybody in Fort Collins received their converter coupons yet? I applied the first or second day and have not received mine yet.

Thanks,
Glen

Glen,
I applied on the first day, and received them last week. Expiration date is 06/03/2008 on mine, and I am planning to use them sometime in May. Right now, looking at the Coship for unit number 1, and another that also suupports s-video for the second.

Jeff

Any ideas what I should do with some spare DTV equipment: HR10-250 and a Sony SAT HD-200? Just collecting dust in my basement in Littleton. I could give them to GoodWill or sell them I suppose. Also have a SONY DVD player - 999ES. Thanks for any thoughts.

I really don't understand what sCARE thinks they have to gain from this fight. The Mt. Morrison tower already exists and isn't going away. The KRMA-DT transmitter is already operational at the site. If they managed to drive KRMA-DT away, it would be back to Lookout Mountain.

So what is their interest in keeping KRMA-DT stuck on the ice bridge?


JMartinko's guess about a paycheck is as good as any. I think part of it is that they are zealots, the other part is that they just don't have the ability to realize that the LCG tower was the best option for ALL in the Denver metro area and probably never will. They still think that they were treated unfairly. They just don't get it, they are not the only ones who exist, basic nimbyism.

Stroke of midnight is too late. 11:59:59 PM is just fine though.

OK, how about 11:59:59.99999999999... PM :D

Glen,
I applied on the first day, and received them last week. Expiration date is 06/03/2008 on mine, and I am planning to use them sometime in May. Right now, looking at the Coship for unit number 1, and another that also suupports s-video for the second.

At this point in time, stay away from the Zenith produced units. They have a serious audio problem.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13446351#post13446351

Glen,
I applied on the first day, and received them last week. Expiration date is 06/03/2008 on mine, and I am planning to use them sometime in May. Right now, looking at the Coship for unit number 1, and another that also supports s-video for the second.

Jeff

Thanks, Jeff! I'll give the gov't another two or three weeks. I'm hoping the Echostar unit is out by my expiration date though I'd settle for anything with s-video and functioning audio. :D

I'd still rather have a recycling coupon for my old TVs than a converter coupon...

At this point in time, stay away from the Zenith produced units. They have a serious audio problem.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13446351#post13446351

Since these boxes decode Dolby Digital, did samples of these boxes have to go through Dolby's normal testing process or were they granted a special waiver because of the government-imposed requirements to "dumb down" their capabilities?

Since these boxes decode Dolby Digital, did samples of these boxes have to go through Dolby's normal testing process or were they granted a special waiver because of the government-imposed requirements to "dumb down" their capabilities?

Good question, which has not been asked in the referenced thread. You should go over there and ask.

Even hi-end STBs have a "dumb down" analog stereo output. Do they have to go through Dolby Labs as well?

Here is a link (http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_8664980) to an article that appeared in todays (Sunday) Denver post.

Ya, that issue is like saying you can't drive your car without your parents permission. Kind of lame I think. The Deb Carney comments included are sort of weird also, let's comment on a dead issue yet once again. And ooh we are all scared again cause there is the Mt. Morrison meeting...

Good question, which has not been asked in the referenced thread. You should go over there and ask.

Even hi-end STBs have a "dumb down" analog stereo output. Do they have to go through Dolby Labs as well?

The high-end boxes definitely have to go through the full and complete certification process. I'm suspicious of the DTV converter boxes because they only provide a subset of the full Dolby Digital product functionality.

Apparently Deb still didn't get 'the memo'. This is such a dead story for (S)CARE. Even if they drive KRMA off of Morrison, it would likely just get them to deal themselves back onto Lookout using the congressional bill. As I said earlier, I believe Deb is still fishing for the paycheck.

The only remaining REAL story here is when do the station actually go on the air with the full power or near full power DTV. There must be some city in the country that we can still beat.

The only remaining REAL story here is when do the station actually go on the air with the full power or near full power DTV. There must be some city in the country that we can still beat.
Seriously, probably Erie, PA.

Erie for sure. I think the Fox station is doing HD as is the PBS. Only the PBS and CBS are at full power.

Could KRMA possibly buy the channel 16 plant from KUSA when they move back to 9? Then they wouldn't even have to bother building out a channel 18 on Lookout, just use the existing equipment on channel 16 instead. Shoot, they might even be able to coax the equipment into operating on channel 18 if they needed to.

I'm somewhat surprised that KCNC didn't try to move to one of the lower frequencies that's being abandoned like 16 or 17. The lower frequency would do a better job handling the terrain and cover more ground with the same power.

- Trip

The high-end boxes definitely have to go through the full and complete certification process. I'm suspicious of the DTV converter boxes because they only provide a subset of the full Dolby Digital product functionality.

Interesting, the reply above is not equal to the reply version I got in e-mail. You must have changed it immediately after posting it.

I did go onto the Dolby web site and I filled in their e-mail contact page mentioning the Zenith problem and directing them to the AVS thread.

Can I get HD PBS OTA on the west side of Boulder above No Boulder Park? HD signal comes from Denver direction only?

Present DishTV and DirectTV don't provide HD PBS, only Comcast cable?

re: OTA PBS HD in Boulder

KRMA-DT (OTA 18-1, remaps to 6-1) comes in pretty good for me off North 63rd. Signal comes from Mt. Morrison (somewhat South of Lookout Mountain) and is considerably stronger than the downtown Denver transmitters. I'm off North 63rd with attic combo UHF/VHF antenna pointed at Lookout Mountain. You are away from the shadowing issue that blocks signals to Louisville. Worth a try for you.

I've never seen anything from KBDI-DT (38-1) here, even though I can get their analog signals on two different VHF channels (11 very snowy picture but definitely there, 12 pretty clear but could be better). Fingers crossed for when KBDI-DT reverts to VHF next year.

Interesting, the reply above is not equal to the reply version I got in e-mail. You must have changed it immediately after posting it.

I did go onto the Dolby web site and I filled in their e-mail contact page mentioning the Zenith problem and directing them to the AVS thread.

Yeah, I made a quick edit after posting it. I'm just being overly cautious about what I say regarding Dolby.

Can I get HD PBS OTA on the west side of Boulder above No Boulder Park? HD signal comes from Denver direction only?

Present DishTV and DirectTV don't provide HD PBS, only Comcast cable?

I think that the best strategy is for all who do not receive KRMA-DT to make your disappointment known to them here.
http://www.rmpbs.org/contact/

I think that the best strategy is for all who do not receive KRMA-DT to make your disappointment known to them here.
http://www.rmpbs.org/contact/

I did as you suggested and included the technical particulars for my location. However, since I'm not a contributor, they will likely ignore my message.

Can I get HD PBS OTA on the west side of Boulder above No Boulder Park? HD signal comes from Denver direction only?

Present DishTV and DirectTV don't provide HD PBS, only Comcast cable?

Hard to say, it is available on the east side to some of us (I am in the Gunbarrel/Heatherwood area). My first guess is that if you are by North Boulder park you will have a pretty tough time getting anything unless you are high up above the local hills. I think a quick way to get a clue would be to see how well you can pick up (if at all) KRMA analog from Lookout. I know much of west Boulder is blocked by Eldorado Mt. and the front range, and at your location you may even have Sanitas in the way, but if you can get the analog signal there is a chance you will get something on the digital side, especially if they ever go full power. Unfortunately as a reference even that is not good as the analog is on Lookout and if they keep the DTV on Morrison it likely reduces your chances as the farther west you are in Boulder the more blockage from Lookout and Eldorado.

I did as you suggested and included the technical particulars for my location. However, since I'm not a contributor, they will likely ignore my message.

Don't expect a reply, They just don't.

However, if there is anyone there that understands that only a small percentage of those having trouble will bother to complain then the more messages we can get in the in-box the better chance we have that something positive will result.

I would be glad to support them, if they made an effort to address the Northern Front Range coverage problems, but if they choose to continue to ignore us, I'll just do without the few programs on KRMA that are of interest.

John

Their engineer made it clear when I spoke to them before that they're not moving, but perhaps if the JeffCo hearing goes poorly next week they'll reconsider Lookout where they'd be protected by law.

Their engineer made it clear when I spoke to them before that they're not moving, but perhaps if the JeffCo hearing goes poorly next week they'll reconsider Lookout where they'd be protected by law.
I got an email from the KRMA engineer last week. He mentioned that they were hoping for some relief at the April 1 meeting. They have requested permits to build a new tower on Mount Morrison. He also mentioned that they are in discussions to move the antenna to the top of the existing Mount Morrison tower after KTVD (Analog 20) goes dark in February of 2009. Based on the data people have provided using KTFD-DT 14-1(UHF15) vs KRMA-DT 6-1(UHF18) I have convinced myself that a move to the top of the tower would probably provide pretty usable signals to the the Ls (Louisville, Longmont, Lafayette, and Loveland) as well as the other communities on a similar line to their antenna.
He did say The ERI antenna we are using was built to give us a broad cardioid pattern to focus the signal toward the front range and minimize signal west, into the mountains. The mounting assembly was custom to allow the antenna to be mounted to a horizontal rather than a vertical mounting surface. Yes we can relocate the antenna, unfortunately there is no space for us to move to.
I think he meant there is no better location they can move the anttenna to at the current time under the existing rulings.

Based on the data people have provided using KTFD-DT 14-1(UHF15) vs KRMA-DT 6-1(UHF18) I have convinced myself that a move to the top of the tower would probably provide pretty usable signals to the the Ls (Louisville, Longmont, Lafayette, and Loveland) as well as the other communities on a similar line to their antenna.

And maybe to western Arvada as well. I still only get a weak lock on KRMA-DT with a Winegard MS2000 (omni-directional antenna with 19 dB pre-amp mounted high in my second floor bedroom) when the moon is in its seventh house and Jupiter aligns with Mars (i.e., not very often, at best one time per week in the morning). BTW, I do get DTV channels 2, 4, 7, 9, 12, 14, 20, and 31 with this antenna.

Hi! After a long hiatus (busy, busy, busy) I finally took some time and got caught up on the thread. All I can say is that ya'll are some very prolific posters! My eyes hurt. :eek:

Glad to see the progress on the tower and actually got a laugh out of the article in the post on Sunday.

For the naysayers my rooftop platform antenna hasn't budged an inch throughout the 18 months or so that it has been up there. I am moving once again at the end of April so hopefully then I won't have to figure out to elaborate of an antenna solution, maybe just toss it up in the rafters this time.

I am also interested in the tour of Karen Leigh, err, I mean the CBS facilities once it is scheduled.

Glad to be back and promise to keep up (for now anyways...)

Tim

I haven't seen this mentioned yet. On the FCC web site I noticed that KCNC filed for an extension to go full power due to two problems they have encountered:

1) Although their main antenna was delivered to the site, it was determined that it was misconfigured, and it will have to be returned to the manufacturer for reconfiguration. This is supposed to take about 4 weeks.

2) Harris has told KCNC that they may not be able to deliver the main transmitter by the original scheduled date.

Anyway, KCNC may still be able to go on the air at Lookout Mountain around 4/15 using an auxilliary antenna and transmitter, but full power will most likely not happen by the 5/18 deadline.

I was looking around on the FCC site to see what the transition plan was for K35EQ. K35EQ is a translator located near Fort Collins for KTVD Channel 20 in Denver. Is there any plan for a digital translator for KTVD in the Fort Collins area, or is K35EQ simply going to go off the air next year? Obviously they can't use the same frequency because it will interfere with KCNC-DT.

1) Although their main antenna was delivered to the site, it was determined that it was misconfigured, and it will have to be returned to the manufacturer for reconfiguration. This is supposed to take about 4 weeks.


Obviously KCNC ordered the antenna with the flange pre-installed, but it arrived without the flange. Typical.... :D

Got my coupons in the mail today. Expire 06/06/2008.

Got mine as well, 6/6 ... any chance ECHOSTAR TR-40 will be out by then?

# Matt

Posted by jsmar:
I was looking around on the FCC site to see what the transition plan was for K35EQ. K35EQ is a translator located near Fort Collins for KTVD Channel 20 in Denver. Is there any plan for a digital translator for KTVD in the Fort Collins area, or is K35EQ simply going to go off the air next year? Obviously they can't use the same frequency because it will interfere with KCNC-DT.
This station applied, back in 2004, and was granted a move to channel 39 due to its conflict with KCNC. The approved application was for an analog translator, not digital.

This station applied, back in 2004, and was granted a move to channel 39 due to its conflict with KCNC. The approved application was for an analog translator, not digital.

Thanks, that helps a little, but it doesn't really clear things up. I checked, and that construction permit that was granted back in 2004 expired in 2006. They are still transmitting on channel 35, and there is nothing on channel 39. I tried a variety of searches, and can find no later extensions or anything related to operation on channel 39.

So, being a low power station, won't they have to go off the air as soon as they start interfering with KCNC-DT? Won't that happen as soon as KCNC-DT starts transmitting from Lookout Mountain with any significant percentage of full power?

So, after thinking about this a little, my guess is that when they applied for the move to channel 39 they were thinking that KCNC-DT might go on the air from Lookout Mountain a lot sooner. Perhaps they never planned to stay on the air after February 2009 (even though as a low power station I guess they could), and with KCNC-DT not moving to Lookout Mountain until April, it isn't worth the expense and effort to switch to channel 39 for only 10 months. I'm still not sure why they have no plans to go digital, but perhaps they feel that with KTVD-DT moving to Lookout Mountain that their northern Colorado coverage will be good enough.

I did not notice the expiration date. Thanks for pointing that out.

K35EQ will definitely have to cease transmitting when the station causes impermissable interference to KCNC, which will be, of course, when KCNC starts transmitting from Lookout with any significant power. It looks like that may be in May 2008.

I'm going to take a WAG at this.

When K35EQ applied to move off of channel 35 (they first applied for channel 56) to channel 39, they were owned by Channel 20 Company, which also owned KUPN in Sterling. The analog channel 20 signal, per the FCC service contour map, does not reach Ft. Collins. That's why, I assume, the translater was built. Perhaps the owners did not foresee the lack of need for a translator in 2004? They did, afterall, at first apply to go to an out of core channel (56). I believe some analog translators will be allowed to stay on out of core channels for some time after 2-17-09, but to apply to move to an out of core channel is not what I'd term insightful thinking.

The current owner, Multimedia Holdings (channel 9), may have realized that the translator was no longer needed, so they let the construction permit lapse. The FCC service contour map for digital KTVD overlaps all of K35EQ's coverage of Ft. Collins. Also, although they would not have known it at an earlier time, say 2006, ironically, KTVD plans to start full power digital broadcasting from Lookout at approximately the same time KCNC starts operating, albeit at reduced power, due to the requirements of the FCC's Third Periodic Review issued 12-31-07.

If you can receive KTVD digital in Ft. Collins, with HD, why would anyone conclude that an analog translater is needed? (rhetorical question) But maybe there is an answer to that question that I'm not aware of. It's similar to the KDVR/KFCT situation, where the digital KDVR signal overlaps the Ft. Collins coverage of KFCT.

The analog channel 20 signal, per the FCC service contour map, does not reach Ft. Collins.

Not sure that it matters, but I live north of Fort Collins near Terry Lake. I have an attic-mounted broadband antenna, and I get both analog channel 35 and analog channel 20 at about equal levels of signal quality.


Jim McCauley

Posted by Jim McCauley:
Not sure that it matters, but I live north of Fort Collins near Terry Lake. I have an attic-mounted broadband antenna, and I get both analog channel 35 and analog channel 20 at about equal levels of signal quality.

You're right, sometimes it doesn't really matter. And I didn't mean to imply that the FCC service contour map is a 100% predictor of reception or non-reception. All it really means in this case is that reception of analog KTVD channel 20 is less likely, if not impossible, and every scenario in-between, outside of the service contour area. In other words, if Terry Lake is beyond the service contour area, it doesn't mean that you won't be able to receive channel 20, it just means you likely will not be able to. I receive analog KGWN from Cheyenne 24/7 and I'm well outside their service contour. There is another Avs poster who used to live in Woodland Park and could receive the KGWN digital signal, which, if I recollect correctly, was a distance of 147 miles.

With the digital signal of KTVD apparently covering a slightly larger area per Longley-Rice service contour computations, an area such as Terry Lake is more likely able to receive the digital signal rather than the analog signal. It doesn't mean you'll receive both and it could mean you, or your neighbor down the road, receive neither.

The FCC uses Longley-Rice service contour predictions based upon F(50,90). What that means is that at least 50% of the locations within the service contour will receive a usable grade B signal 90% of the time. If you are located within a station's service contour, your chances of receiving a signal are much more likely, under the computation, than if you live outside of the service contour.

So, again, you are right, in your case it doesn't matter. But for someone else closeby, maybe it does. Another example is the streaky reception of KRMA north of Denver. Some folks are in the service contour area by can't receive a usable signal.

Just noticed Sam Adams' RMN column today: 85 Rockies broadcasts in HD on FSN this season. That's progress.

It is progress, but I still wonder why the FOX RSN's don't share the away games with each other. I thought that I read somewhere that FOX production center in Houston was being updated and expanded to accomplish this.
I may have only dreamed this though:confused:

re Rockies:
AND, since FSN produces the KTVD Rockies broadcasts, are those games also in HD?

I am having a new problem with KRMA-DT 6-1. My Philip's DVDR3575H recorder cannot receive audio or video of 6-1 or 6-2. It is set up to record the TOH family of shows at 1PM Mon-Fri. It recorded New Yankee Workshop on Tuesday, but it was just a blank screen today for Ask This Old House. It is also not able to get the stations at this time. My Philips 42PF7320 TV and my Vizio VX32L TVs are getting 6-1 fine, right now. Since the recorder has been able to get 6-1 when the signal was too weak for the TVs, I do not think it is signal strength. I would suspect that they have done something to the PSIP data that does not bother the TVs, but the recorder cannot handle.
FYI: 6-1 does seem to be in the recorders tables. If I step up from 4-1, it goes to 6-1, says scanning, and then displays a Blue Screen and no sound. If I go to 18, it cannot find the signal either. This unit can normally find a station that is not in the tables by going to the assigned channel. eg. If I go to 15, it finds 14-1, even though it was deleted from the scan results.

Is anyone else seeing anything at all similar?

I am having a new problem with KRMA-DT 6-1. My Philip's DVDR3575H recorder cannot receive audio or video of 6-1 or 6-2. It is set up to record the TOH family of shows at 1PM Mon-Fri. It recorded New Yankee Workshop on Tuesday, but it was just a blank screen today for Ask This Old House. It is also not able to get the stations at this time. My Philips 42PF7320 TV and my Vizio VX32L TVs are getting 6-1 fine, right now. Since the recorder has been able to get 6-1 when the signal was too weak for the TVs, I do not think it is signal strength. I would suspect that they have done something to the PSIP data that does not bother the TVs, but the recorder cannot handle.
FYI: 6-1 does seem to be in the recorders tables. If I step up from 4-1, it goes to 6-1, says scanning, and then displays a Blue Screen and no sound. If I go to 18, it cannot find the signal either. This unit can normally find a station that is not in the tables by going to the assigned channel. eg. If I go to 15, it finds 14-1, even though it was deleted from the scan results.

Is anyone else seeing anything at all similar?
I don't think it's your equipment, kenavs. At about 4 p.m., both 6-1 and 6-2 displayed black screens here, too. Their transmitter's carrier was still there, because I had KRMA's usual 75-percent signal strength at the time. By about 8 p.m., however, signal strength was zero.

All of which makes me wonder: Why did it apparently take their engineers several hours to notice they weren't broadcasting anything on the digital channels?

I am having a new problem with KRMA-DT 6-1. My Philip's DVDR3575H recorder cannot receive audio or video of 6-1 or 6-2. It is set up to record the TOH family of shows at 1PM Mon-Fri. It recorded New Yankee Workshop on Tuesday, but it was just a blank screen today for Ask This Old House. It is also not able to get the stations at this time. My Philips 42PF7320 TV and my Vizio VX32L TVs are getting 6-1 fine, right now. Since the recorder has been able to get 6-1 when the signal was too weak for the TVs, I do not think it is signal strength. I would suspect that they have done something to the PSIP data that does not bother the TVs, but the recorder cannot handle.

I left a voice mail about noon today with KRMA, and my problem was gone a couple hours later.

Posted by bill-fc:
re Rockies:
AND, since FSN produces the KTVD Rockies broadcasts, are those games also in HD?

None of the KTVD Rockies games are in HD.

See http://www.hdsportsguide.com/homcom/

Thanks for the response milehighmike -- I wonder if FSN wants to be the exclusive Rockies HD outlet, or if Gannett is too cheap to bother. The day games (almost entirely KTVblah's) are the most fun to watch in HD. Odd that Gannett thinks 9pm news in HD is more important than the NL champ Rockies....

I left a voice mail about noon today with KRMA, and my problem was gone a couple hours later.

Thanks, ken. Kinda lame to rely on viewer complaints for signal reports, no? But that's RMPBS for ya. After all, this is a network that constantly pleads poverty while pulling in three times as much revenue as (truly poor) KBDI does.

After all, this is a network that constantly pleads poverty while pulling in three times as much revenue as (truly poor) KBDI does.

In the spirit of fairness and balance, let it be noted that KRMA carries the most expensive PBS programming, and the price of _NewHour_ is enough to break many PBS affiliates. But KBDI deserves a tip of the hat for its creative economy. For example, KBDI-WV carries a program called _International Mystery_ on weekends -- the programs are from a combo of resources in France, Italy, the Czech Republic and other nations. They're presented in European languages with English subtitles, and they are almost good enough to make up for the disappearance of _Mystery!_ into the new _Masterpiece_ portfolio. Sigh.


Jim McCauley

Thanks, ken. Kinda lame to rely on viewer complaints for signal reports, no? But that's RMPBS for ya. After all, this is a network that constantly pleads poverty while pulling in three times as much revenue as (truly poor) KBDI does.
Just to make it clear, KRMA-DT was still transmitting. I believe it was a problem with the PSIP data that many receivers were not effected by. If it was a problem that effected most receivers, I suspect that KRMA-DT would have detected it sooner.

In the spirit of fairness and balance, let it be noted that KRMA carries the most expensive PBS programming, and the price of _NewHour_ is enough to break many PBS affiliates. ...............................
Jim McCauley

They don't carry it (The News Hour) in HD even though it has been available in HD for several months now. KRMA has its good points and bad points, but I have been more influenced by the bad points since they left the LCG and went on their own on Mt. Morrison, which at this point would be hard to defend as a wise decision.

On a serious note, has anybody in Fort Collins received their converter coupons yet? I applied the first or second day and have not received mine yet.

Thanks,
Glen

Here is the schedule for mailing coupons.

Your Application Approval Date Targeted Mail Date
January 1, 2008 2/18 – 2/29/2008
January 2, 2008 3/3 – 3/14/2008
January 3 - 6, 2008 3/17 – 3/21/2008
January 7 – 13, 2008 3/24 – 3/28/2008
January 14 – 30, 2008 3/31 – 4/4/2008
January 31 – February 16, 2008 4/7 – 4/11/2008
February 17 – 24, 2008 4/14 – 4/18/2008
February 25 - March 10, 2008 4/21 -4/25/2008
March 11 - March 21, 2008 4/28 –5/2/2008

Bob

Here is the schedule for mailing coupons.

<snip>

I've noted the schedule, but I've been a bit leery of the whole thing. I registered for my coupons on the second day, so I've expected some delay, but when I first checked the status (over a month ago), I got a message that my "coupons have been mailed and would arrive shortly." Even standard mail doesn't take that long, so I take the message with a grain of salt...


Jim

I've noted the schedule, but I've been a bit leery of the whole thing. I registered for my coupons on the second day, so I've expected some delay, but when I first checked the status (over a month ago), I got a message that my "coupons have been mailed and would arrive shortly." Even standard mail doesn't take that long, so I take the message with a grain of salt...
Jim

I'm not sure when I registered for my coupons, but I got them a couple of weeks ago. I got them almost two weeks after the date they were "mailed", i.e. the date that the expiration is computed on. Based on the above schedule, I must have signed up on the first day. My guess is that people who signed up on the second day will be getting their coupons any day now.

The funny thing is that I wanted to get the Zenith DT9900, but when I finally got my coupon the local Circuit City was out of stock. A salesman told me that someone came in and bought their entire stock (6 units), without even having any coupons. I had to wait another week for them to get a few more in.

I plan to wait until my other coupon is about to expire before I buy a second CECB. I really want one with S-video out (one I am looking at is the TI based MaxMedia box, but I'm hoping someone will actually get one of them in hand and report on it before I purchase one).

re Rockies:
AND, since FSN produces the KTVD Rockies broadcasts, are those games also in HD?

They could be. UPN networks will broadcast local MLB games in other markets. I've sent an email to KTVD and KUSA with this question. It seems to me that if they are broadcasting HD on 20-1 and they have production facilities from FSRM that they already use, it wouldn't be too difficult to use them for the KTVD games.

Here is a link from hdsportsguide for all the Rockies broadcasts currently scheduled:

http://www.hdsportsguide.com/mlb/colorado-rockies/

If you want to pester KTVD and KUSA about adding OTA HD broadcasts of Rockies baseball, here are a couple of email links:

feedback@ktvd.com

mark.cornetta@9news.com

I received a prompt response from Mark Cornetta at KUSA. He stated that the Rockies control the decision to broadcast in HD and that they (Rockies) did not want to incur the additional cost of the HD broadcast for the KTVD games. He also said they would prefer to broadcast the games in HD.
He also corrected my mistaken assumption that KTVD is still affiliated with UPN. That ended a year and a half ago.

Yeah buddy, where have you been? As of September 2006 UPN doesn't exist anymore. It's now My Network TV, which has actually managed to be worse than UPN was.

Yeah buddy, where have you been? As of September 2006 UPN doesn't exist anymore. It's now My Network TV, which has actually managed to be worse than UPN was.

Your note seems to imply that UPN became "My Network TV", which is not the case. To be clear, UPN and "The WB" merged to create "The CW" network. Channel 20 used to carry UPN and Channel 2 used to carry "The WB". After the merger Channel 2 became the channel that broadcasts "The CW". Channel 20 had to either find another network or become an independent. They chose to carry "My Network TV".

Oops, sorry about that. I meant KTVD is now an MNTV affiliate.

I wanted to help my brother who lives in Parker CO.
39.5457 LAT -104.791 LON
He lives in a apartment on the second story and is currently using a
RadioShack 15-1880 Amplified UHF/VHF HDTV Antenna

Is this enough for the DTV for him?
I had him apply for is coupons already.

Oops, sorry about that. I meant KTVD is now an MNTV affiliate.

Yeah buddy, looks like anybody can make a mistake.

He lives in a apartment on the second story and is currently using a
RadioShack 15-1880 Amplified UHF/VHF HDTV Antenna.

Try putting your brother's locale into http://www.antennaweb.org/aw/Address.aspx and see what results you get.


Jim McCauley

Posted by Malouff:
I wanted to help my brother who lives in Parker CO.
39.5457 LAT -104.791 LON
I put your coordinates into the TV Fool web site. The results are in the attached image. While you are probably OK with KWGN and KDVR (and maybe with KRMA) with rabbit ears, you do not have line of sight to Republic Plaza, nor is your received signal strength very good, where KCNC, KUSA, KMGH, and KTVD are currently located. Hopefully, KCNC and KTVD will be moving to Lookout in the next month or two with much higher power, while KUSA will also move to Lookout but will still be at low power. You're pretty much out of luck with KMGH since they won't move to Lookout until 2-17-09.

If your brother has a balcony (or even a window) facing somewhere between north and west, you may get better results by putting the antenna there.

milehighmike,

So looking at it would my brother be better off with another antenna?
I don't think he can use a rooftop antenna where he lives.

Comparing the Analog and Digital to me it looks like his received signal strength will be more in the negative.

Attached is the Owners Manual of his current antenna.

Thank You

Good till 6/12. If anyone wants to know what the envelope looks like:

milehighmike,

So looking at it would my brother be better off with another antenna?
I don't think he can use a rooftop antenna where he lives.

Thank You

Malouff,

Before you go the new antenna route, try adding a length of RG-6 cable to the RS antenna lead, using a barrel connector to splice the cables, to bring the antenna close to a window as mike suggests. Measure the distance to one of those north- or west-facing windows, and try to buy just enough cable to get there; in other words, don't buy 100 feet of the stuff and then leave the excess coiled up on the floor if 12 feet will do.

Your brother will need the window or patio door for better reception if he lives in one of the newer complexes hereabouts, because the exterior walls in a lot of those places typically have building materials (stone exterior veneers, fiber-cement clapboards, foil-lined insulation) which totally block TV signals.

A new antenna that's both usable in your brother's situation and a step up in performance from what he has now is going to be a bit costly. For an example with a decent reputation, Google the Winegard Square Shooter, model SS-2000.

I am going to the hearing tomorrow, anyone else going?

I'm swamped at work right now, so I won't be able to make it :(

Malouff,

I just re-read your original post. It appears that your brother is waiting on his coupons to purchase digital tuners for his analog TV's and that he doesn't currently own a digital TV. Is that correct? If so, I'd suggest waiting on making any antenna decisions. Your brother won't be able to see any results from his current antenna setup until he can receive digital signals.

Anyone know why 9News goes from HD & DD5.1 on KUSA to HD & DD2.0 on KTVD when the news group switches over to My20 at 7 AM? Really annoying with the sound change when one is channel surfing the morning weather and traffic like I do. Fox is also using DD2.0, but they aren't HD anyway and at least they pump up the volume more than My20. News2 is a nice compromise with very high quality SD video and DD5.1.

3-0 YES! Vote, Mt. Morrison Option B tower to go forward. Morgese, Carney and Hislop, all in attendance. Meeting was about 2 and half hrs, McCasky had a few questions, but other than that......

Any word yet on the Morrison hearing?

I saw something at this link (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13529868#post13529868).

:p

sCARE goes down in flames again! How sweeeeeet it is!

Yes, how sweet it was Ernie. There seemed to be an equal amount of individual speakers pro and con for this one, not like the Lookout Ones, where sCARE had their troops out, one after another. Tim Carl's powerpoint was concise, factual and to the point. Deb's one was full of junk that no one understood, which she skipped a bunch of them in her presentation.

Maybe this has been covered, but why is KRMA-DT carrying completely different programming than the analog version....?

Maybe this has been covered, but why is KRMA-DT carrying completely different programming than the analog version....?

It's just a holdover from the way they got started,
1) In the early days KRMA had almost no digital equipment of their own, and just passed through a national feed from PBS-HD. This was mostly a continuous demo loop which lasted about 3 hours IIRC.
2) Later, PBS-HD expanded their schedule and KRMA continued to pass the national feed through unchanged. This was the high point of HD in my opinion.
3) Next KRMA got some equipment to encode their analog feed and went to a schedule of encoding their analog feed from midnight to noon, and running PBS-HD from noon to midnight,
4) Next KRMA signed up as a Create affiliate, so we lost the PBS-HD feed from noon to 6PM, leaving only the evening on PBS-HD. This was a big blow for me since my favorite PBS-HD show was Smart Travels, from 530 to 6 PM.
5) Next they added the V-Me subchannel, which noticeably softened the quality of the evening PBS-HD..

Step 5 is where we are today. I have to expect that they will merge the digital and analog schedules sometime before next February, but I haven't heard any specifics on when and how. My big fear is that they will turn Create into yet another subchannel, making real HD a thing of the past.

Yes, how sweet it was Ernie. There seemed to be an equal amount of individual speakers pro and con for this one, not like the Lookout Ones, where sCARE had their troops out, one after another. Tim Carl's powerpoint was concise, factual and to the point. Deb's one was full of junk that no one understood, which she skipped a bunch of them in her presentation.

Great news, although I am still left wondering how long it will be yet before Deb actually goes out to get a 'real' job.

3-0 YES! Vote, Mt. Morrison Option B tower to go forward. Morgese, Carney and Hislop, all in attendance. Meeting was about 2 and half hrs, McCasky had a few questions, but other than that......

Is anyone aware of a clear and reliable description of the Option B tower proposal? The only thing I could find was a PDF of the Jefco staff report by Tim Carl, Development & Transportation Director, but it was on the sCARE website. I would feel more comfortable if it was almost anywhere else.

If I read that one correctly, it seems like Option B authorizes a new tower and associated facilities building expansion which can be used by KRMA-DT, KPXC-DT and KTFD-DT as well as some LP TV stations, some FM stations, and other miscellaneous applications. Is that at all accurate?

Does this mean that these stations can apply for appropriate FCC construction permits and begin construction as soon as they get the OK from the FCC? Do they need authorization from anyone else, such as the FAA for the actual tower?

I assume that sCARE will try to get an injunction from some friendly judge. Is that the most serious potential barrier?

Anyone know why 9News goes from HD & DD5.1 on KUSA to HD & DD2.0 on KTVD when the news group switches over to My20 at 7 AM?

On a related note, anyone know why when they do the weather "insert" on Today (the 30 seconds or so they're given to provide a local forecast during the weather), even though Today is HD and 9 News is HD, the insert is 4:3 SD? Is it because they can't do HD simultaneously on 9-1 and 20-1?

One can't help but wonder if this will affect KCNC's plans to go HD with their news broadcasts:

CBS-owned KCNC-Channel 4 conducted a round of newsroom layoffs Wednesday, mostly affecting off-air personnel but also including weekend morning anchor Arturo Santiago.

Among those getting pink slips: assignment editor Melinda Dionne, producer Jennifer Hall, writer Carol Svoboda, editor Shawn Montano (recently named video editor of the year by the National Press Photographers Association), and community affairs coordinator Sharon Walker.

In addition to those six positions, KCNC staffers told The Denver Post a number of engineering positions may be cut as well.

According to newsroom staffers, management is combining layoffs with attrition to reduce the total employee count. A total of five open positions will not be filled.

Dionne, whose contract will allow her to work through May 21, said management explained the layoffs were a means of "trimming the fat." Several employees who worked without contracts packed their desks and left Wednesday. Santiago is expected to work through next month.

The economy and the general state of the journalism industries, both broadcast and print, are to blame for the cuts, according to news director Tim Wieland.

General Manager Walt de Haven was flying and not available to return calls but spokeswoman Danielle Dascalos said it is station policy not to discuss personnel issues.

http://www.denverpost.com/entertainment/ci_8719563


I can't help but believe HD equipment would be on the chopping block as well.

My KRMA reception in Louisville improved a couple of days ago. Signal strength went from ~40 (very poor, occasional signal) to ~55 (good signal 99% of the time) on my DigitalStream 3150+.
Has anybody else from the shadowed Louisville/Lafayette/Longmont areas noticed a KRMA improvement also?
What about those of you who already had a good signal?

Story in the DP today on sCARE's defeat. sCARE will never admit defeat, Deb's still thinks she's right and everyone else is wrong.

http://www.denverpost.com/search/ci_8774613

........................sCARE will never admit defeat, Deb's still thinks she's right and everyone else is wrong.


She has an amazing ability to ignore facts and not face the reality of the situation. It may come from the fact that at some point in the future she is going to have to admit she was wrong, and she collected all that money from (S)CARE for her services and in the end, produced nothing in return except massive legal bills for (S)CARE and Golden.

Step 5 is where we are today. I have to expect that they will merge the digital and analog schedules sometime before next February, but I haven't heard any specifics on when and how. My big fear is that they will turn Create into yet another subchannel, making real HD a thing of the past.

Thanks for the explanation, but this is a little frustrating if you don't have analog. They could've at least temporarily put their analog station on a sub channel. Aren't they supposed to broadcast the same content on the digital channel as the analog?

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/prefill_and_display.pl?Application_id=1237550&Service=DS&Form_id=911&Facility_id=40875

Looks like KMGH-DT 17 is going on Lookout after all.

- Trip

[url]Looks like KMGH-DT 17 is going on Lookout after all.Thanks Trip, but, I don't think there was ever a doubt they weren't going to be on the LCG tower. There was speculation (until yesterday) that maybe KRMA might go there... but not now!

I thought I heard they weren't moving off Republic til they returned to channel 7 in 2009?

- Trip

Oh, that may be true. I misunderstood your post, I thought you didn't think they would be on the LCG tower at all. My bad.

My KRMA reception in Louisville improved a couple of days ago. Signal strength went from ~40 (very poor, occasional signal) to ~55 (good signal 99% of the time) on my DigitalStream 3150+.
Has anybody else from the shadowed Louisville/Lafayette/Longmont areas noticed a KRMA improvement also?
What about those of you who already had a good signal?

Still zero signal from KRMA-DT for me.

Got my CECB coupons, marched down to Circuit City and picked up a Zenith DTT900 (despite questions about its audio decoder performance). Plugged it into my 20" RCA set downstairs and went through the (very simple) setup procedure.

I get clear pictures and good sound from:

KWGN-DT
KDEV-DT
KTFD-DT
KDEN-DT
KDVR-DT
KBDI-DT
KBDI-DC
KBDI-WV
DAYSTAR

Pictures occasionally break up, but not often enough to be irritating. Sound is very good, even on Dolby 5.1 network broadcasts.

I get marginal signals on digital channels 18, 21 and 22. Images never stabilize on these channels.

For some reason, the DAYSTAR signal is accompanied by a fifteen channels of erroneous metadata for which there are no associated broadcast signals. I just deleted Channel 40 content altogether, which is very easy to do in the Zenith interface.

I get very weak signals that register in the "Bad" range of the simple signal meter on 16, 17 and 30.

This is similar performance to my PC tuner card, although I get smoother rendering for KWGN-DT and KDRV-DT on the Zenith box than I ever got on the computer.

The tuner is now attached to a 27" Zenith TV and still delivering good pictures. It was not necessary to repeat the setup procedure when I moved the box.

All in all, a good purchase. It will be my "alert system" that will let me know when it is actually worthwhile to buy a digital television.


Jim McCauley

Your reception report seems unusual to me. Your 3 strongest channels should be KDEV DT11 and KFCT DT21, both with transmitters/towers in Ft. Collins, and KGWN DT30 from Cheyenne, which is probably 35 miles from you. All three channels are full power/licensed.

Do you have only a UHF antenna? Do you also have an amp? My thought is that you are have overloaded reception of your strong UHF signals, channels 21 and 30, while you're receiving a less than optimal signal on channel 11 with your UHF antenna, which does not overload. You should be able to receive all three of these channels with a very small unamplified antenna, even rabbit ears. I receive KDEV and KFCT and I'm 71 miles away.

It's also interesting that you report receiving a marginal signal on channel 22. Since KFCT analog is on channel 22, which would probably interfere with any digital channel 22 reception, and the nearest digital 22 is KXRM in Colorado Springs, it would be interesting to know what station this is. It possibly could have been long distance reception due to tropo conditions, but we don't see much of that in this part of the country.

So, last night I am watching the 9News high def newscast and, later, the hour long "My Name is Earl" episode. One of those annoying banners shows up on both programs, touting the analog/digital transition with a web notice for more information.

Good idea: provide information and resources ahead of the change.

Except it occurred to me that those of us who are viewing the hi def broadcast, either OTA, cable or sat, have already made the transition.

Preaching to the digital choir.

Doh!

Unless 9News is simulcasting the 1080i as 4:3 480i, someone didn't think through the problem very well.

Yes, the same signal is going to the analog sources, so they do see the info.

Starting March 31st, the FCC now requires all stations, analog or digital to run PSAs and crawls, snipes, or tickers about the transition. Depending on which option (there are 2 for commercial stations and 3 for educational stations) there is a minimum number that must be run per day between 6am to 11:35pm ET (not sure what it is for Mountain time 5am to 10:35pm? but it is slightly different than ET/PT) and within 100 days of the transition every station has to do a countdown to Feb 17. Primetime will catch most of this, by FCC design.

For more info, check at http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DOC-280586A1.pdf this is the "Digital Television Consumer Education Order"

The actual R&O http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/FCC-08-56A1.pdf

So, last night I am watching the 9News high def newscast and, later, the hour long "My Name is Earl" episode. One of those annoying banners shows up on both programs, touting the analog/digital transition with a web notice for more information.

Good idea: provide information and resources ahead of the change.

Except it occurred to me that those of us who are viewing the hi def broadcast, either OTA, cable or sat, have already made the transition.

Preaching to the digital choir.

Doh!

Unless 9News is simulcasting the 1080i as 4:3 480i, someone didn't think through the problem very well.

I didn't look, but I am sure the analog folks saw the same thing. It does bother me that they show that scroll during prime time, and of course, never during commercials, only during the program you are watching. It is still nearly a year out. I sure hope this doesn't mean by next winter we will be seeing a continuous scroll for 5 hours a night during all of the prime time stuff. It is extremely annoying to say the least. At least split it up and run it during commercial part ot the time if you feel the need to run it.

Your reception report seems unusual to me. Your 3 strongest channels should be KDEV DT11 and KFCT DT21, both with transmitters/towers in Ft. Collins,

KDEV-DT is about 30 degrees west off axis from the antenna boresight, but it comes though very well. The station I identified as "KFCT-DT" is almost exactly 90 degrees east off axis. However, I seem to have made an error in identifying it -- please see below.

and KGWN DT30 from Cheyenne, which is probably 35 miles from you. All three channels are full power/licensed.

KGWN-DT is exactly 180 degrees off axis, directly behind the antenna.

Do you have only a UHF antenna?

No, it's a Terk 38 -- a 14' broadband monster.

Do you also have an amp?

Yep, a Finco amp. Can't recall the model number, but it is definitely a broadband amp. The antenna downlead is RG-6. I've tried taking the amp in and out, taken the FM trap in and out, and I've also run a direct, unspliced lead from the antenna to the Zenith CECB. None of these changes have a significant effect on received signal levels on the channels that come in clearly with the amp inline and multi-device splitting.

My thought is that you are have overloaded reception of your strong UHF signals, channels 21 and 30, while you're receiving a less than optimal signal on channel 11 with your UHF antenna, which does not overload.

Possible, but the fact that taking the amp out doesn't make much difference would argue against overload. Is there any way to interpret overload from the Zenith DTT900's signal-strength indicator?

You should be able to receive all three of these channels with a very small unamplified antenna, even rabbit ears. I receive KDEV and KFCT and I'm 71 miles away.

My PC tuner card came with a simple "antler-style" unamplified aluminum antenna. I tried that also, and it gave good reception on KDEV-DT, and "KFCT-DT" (see below) came in as well. KGWN-DT locks but won't decode unless the simple antenna is pointed at it. On the small antenna, signal levels for KTFD-DT, KDEN-DT, KDVR-DT and KWGN-DT are too low to lock.

It's also interesting that you report receiving a marginal signal on channel 22. Since KFCT analog is on channel 22, which would probably interfere with any digital channel 22 reception, and the nearest digital 22 is KXRM in Colorado Springs, it would be interesting to know what station this is. It possibly could have been long distance reception due to tropo conditions, but we don't see much of that in this part of the country.

Actually, I made an error in my report. Digital channel 21 comes through clearly on the small, unamplified antenna but weakly on the Terk 38 with or without amplification. It decodes as "DTV 22-1, KDVR-DT." The callsign "KFCT-DT" never appears, so I guess that it is only the analog channel that is actually KFCT.

The fact that the small, unamplified antenna gets digital channel 22-1 seems to indicate that the sidelobe suppression of the Terk 38 must be pretty amazing at lower UHF frequencies :-)


Jim McCauley

Aaargh. Please help me learn the proper terms for a few things.

What exactly is a "digital channel"? For example, KBDI is known in both the analog and digital worlds as "Channel 12." On the analog side, it is actually assigned to highband analog channel 12. On the digital side, it is (at least at this time) assigned to "digital channel" 38. (For simplicity's sake, I'm disregarding KBDI's translators.)

So: is it the case that "38" is in fact the "digital channel" and that "12" is essentially just a brand? If so, what do you actually call 12-1, 12-2 and 12-3? Channels? My brain hurts...

Other confusions arise from KTFD-DT sitting on "digital channel 15" but being branded as "Channel 14." Also, both "digital channels" 32 (near Denver) and 21 (near Fort Collins) are branded as "KDVR 31" -- but here in Fort Collins, "digital channel" 21 is displayed in the program guide as "22-1." My brain still hurts. Guess I'll have to have it out then...

Is this a triumph of marketing over common sense? It's a good thing that DTVs have computers built into 'em -- we'd never be able to tune a channel without computer assistance!


Jim McCauley
Fort Collins CO

The idea is that people shouldn't have to know that, for example, KBDI-DT is actually on channel 38, it just shows on receivers as 12-1 so they don't have to rebrand or have mass confusion. People are used to seeing KBDI on channel 12, so it still shows there. Could you imagine trying to explain to people that KBDI-12 is now on 38-1?

Generally, channel 38 would be referred to as the "physical" channel (since that's where it's physically located) while the 12 could have a few names (analog channel, mapped channel, etc) though "major channel number" is the technical term (with the -1 and -2 being the "minor channel numbers").

I hope that helped clear things up for you...

- Trip

The Digital or physical channel is the actual RF channel the station is broadcasting on over the air.

So: is it the case that "38" is in fact the "digital channel" and that "12" is essentially just a brand?

Even though it may cause a bit of confusion at times, knowing the location of those physical channels can be a help. Recently, KRMA-DT apparently had a problem with PSIP data, resulting in normal signal strength but a black screen and no audio on some receivers, like mine. No doubt thanks to a phone call to the station placed by kenavs, they fixed the glitch quickly, but I still had the same problem. The "Search for additional channels" function didn't resolve the issue.

KRMA-DT broadcasts on physical channel 18. Knowing that, I tried punching "18-1" into the remote. Once the receiver accepted the instruction, it paused for a couple of seconds, then displayed "6-1 KRMA-DT." Picture and sound came up with it, and no further issues occurred with 6-1 or 6-2. Apparently, I had forced the receiver to re-map KRMA by tuning in to the physical channel.

This may help: If you haven't already done so, print AntennaWeb's results for your location, and leave the sheet near your OTA receiver(s) for future reference. The physical channel for each station is listed in the last column, "Frequency assignment."

Bottom line is that there are "real" channels that are an actual frequency that is used. Then there are "mapped" channels using PSIP that are displayed by your reciever. The real channel might be 38-1 and it associated frequency. The mapped channel is 12-1. As Trip mentions, the process "SHOULD" make things easier for you. If you look too closely, it confuses you though.

There are listings of the "REAL" channel" (actual transmitter frequency or channel number) versus the PSIP "mapped" channel. I could not easily find one right now. Check it out! I think that Titan TV will allow you to see the mappings...

Phil

As Trip In Va posted, the remapping of digital channels to their analog channel numbers was intended to avoid confusion for viewers but was strongly advocated by broadcasters so they could avoid the hassle and $ in rebranding their stations. For example, Fox 31, which broadcasts its digital signal on channel 32, would have to rebrand itself as Fox 32 without the remapping requirement. Channels 7 and 9 would avoid that confusion and expense since they are returning to their analog channels after 2-17-09. 9News remains 9News, remapping or no remapping.

I think the reasons for remapping requirement are there to save stations $, period. Over the past few years, channels 4, 7, and 9 all switched network affiliations. We no longer have UPN 20, but we have My20. These changes were understood by the public and I think sticking with digital channel numbers would have also. I guess the people that make these decisions think too many of us are dumb and can't accept change.

What adds to the confusion is that some stations don't follow the PSIP remapping requirements, so their digital channel and remapped channel are the same. KDEV, digital 11, shows up on tuners as 11-1. They should be remapping to their Cheyenne analog channel and show as 33-1. The same holds true for KRMT on digital channel 40. Their PSIP is so screwed up they put out 15 blank screen channel numbers, 40-1 thru 40-15, with their signal showing up as 40-16. They should be remapping to their analog channel as 41-1.

Here's a table of the digital transmit channel and analog remapped channel for the local stations:

KWGN - 34, 2
KCNC - 35, 4
KGWN - 30, 5
KRMA - 18, 6
KMGH - 17, 7 (will be 7, 7 after transition)
KUSA - 16, 9 ( will be 9, 9 after transition)
KDEV - 11, 11 (not remapped correctly)
KBDI - 38, 12 (will be 13, 12 after transition)
KTFD - 15, 14
KTVD - 19, 20
KFCT - 21, 22
KDEN - 29, 25
KDVR - 32, 31
KRMT - 40, 40 (not remapped correctly)
KWHD - 46, 53
KXPC - 43, 59 (not on the air with digital yet)
KCEC - 51, 50

There will also be some new stations. One will be in Greeley, transmitting on channel 38. They can't go on the air right now because KBDI is on 38 until the transition. Their remapped channel is not known at this time. Also, some LP's will be going digital soon after the cutoff. For example KZCO, analog 27, will be on digital 17 after the transition (KMGH has 17 tied up right now). KDEO, on analog 23, will be digital on channel 20 (KTVD has 20 tied up right now). KUPN in Sterling/Ft. Morgan, is on analog 3 but will be on 23 when they go digital. It's like a merry-go-round.

We no longer have UPN 20, but we have My20. These changes were understood by the public and I think sticking with digital channel numbers would have also. I guess the people that make these decisions think too many of us are dumb and can't accept change.

That's because people can't accept change. While you and I would have no problem with this, my Dad got lost when we moved from analog to digital and he found there was a 7-1 and 7-2 and not just 7. Thankfully it was easy to explain and he immediately saw the benefit.

I could almost imagine myself having to make him a chart showing which digital channel maps to which analog channel, hearing a bunch of yelling about how stupid the stations are for not finding a way to show as their analog number, and finally deciding to give up on watching TV or get satellite (he's already talking about satellite because of our low-VHF PBS station, but...).

Mapping is 100% necessary, because most people over a certain age can't adapt to change and technology very well. Note all the blinking VCRs that used to be prevalent as an example.

Mapping may seem confusing for those who are "in the know" but for the average person, it's absolutely essential. An affiliation switch is much less confusing than "every channel on your dial is moving somewhere else, make yourself a chart."

- Trip

What adds to the confusion is that some stations don't follow the PSIP remapping requirements, so their digital channel and remapped channel are the same.

Has the FCC been informed of this boneheadedness? I went though the Commission website and could not identify an appropriate method of complaint. Do I just write to the main FCC address and hope it wends its way through the agency and finds the right desk, or is there a known person who has responsibility for handling these matters?

Here's a table of the digital transmit channel and analog remapped channel for the local stations:

Thanks for the lucid explanation and the useful chart!


Jim McCauley

Mapping is 100% necessary, because most people over a certain age can't adapt to change and technology very well. Note all the blinking VCRs that used to be prevalent as an example.

I don't want to go all "politically correct" on you, but I'l be 61 in a few days, and frankly I find the remapping more confusing than a straightforward change in channel assignments would have been.

Not all of us old farts are so inflexible :-)

Besides, with the remapping, station marketers are missing a golden marketing opportunity, because they could have used the channel reassignment as a promotional vehicle. Hell's bells, with the money they spend on trumpeting the slightest change in news operations, they should welcome such a chance to grab the public's attention.

Jim McCauley

I don't want to go all "politically correct" on you, but I'l be 61 in a few days, and frankly I find the remapping more confusing than a straightforward change in channel assignments would have been.

Not all of us old farts are so inflexible :-)

I know not all are, but most are. The fact is that the vast majority of people want to it to "just work" (as the Apple people would say).

My dad has lived in Virginia for 12 years. He STILL calls CBS on channel 7 "channel 2" from time to time, thinking back to the 40 years he spent watching WCBS in New York on channel 2.

Moving all of the mapped channels around only makes it more difficult for people to remember where their favorite channels are. I explain to people that the stations are broadcasting on different channels and I get a horrified look, then I tell them about how they'll appear as the analog numbers and they tell me they're glad because it makes it easier.

Besides, with the remapping, station marketers are missing a golden marketing opportunity, because they could have used the channel reassignment as a promotional vehicle. Hell's bells, with the money they spend on trumpeting the slightest change in news operations, they should welcome such a chance to grab the public's attention.

Jim McCauley

Would you rather be CBS35 or CBS4? I think I'd pick the smaller number since it's easier to remember. Plus you have to get everyone used to finding the channel there. And not on 34, that's KWGN, which used to be on 2.

It's also a competitive disadvantage, since KMGH and KUSA will be on lower channel numbers. Using your plan, to get to KCNC you have to channel up through:

KDEV
KBDI
KTFD
KRMA
KTVD
KDEN
KDVR
KWGN

Plus their subchannels just to get up to where KCNC is located. The station becomes buried in a sea of other stations.

- Trip

Ironic isn't that the channels numbers are also just a representation of a particular frequency. Look at an AM or FM dial but hey I am a geek :)

Trip, you've done some great work on Avs and I applaud you for it. It has been very helpful to me. But I hope we can agree to disagree on channel remapping. Remapping was pushed by the broadcasters. They didn't push for it without #1 in mind - themselves. Beside the $ in rebranding saved, I think it was the result of operating both digital and analog signals simutaneously. The public could be confused - should I tune KCNC on channel 4 or channel 35. Remapping probably served a purpose with dual signals. It doesn't after analog shutoff. Besides, KCNC always ID's itself as KCNC4/DT35. After analog cutoff, they could drop the 4.

I beg to differ with you, but I don't see how a smaller number, like KCNC 35 versus KCNC 4, is easier to remember. We're not talking 9 versus 1,327 here. Two digits are the max. What about stations such as WTEV in Jax, FL? Their analog is on 47, digital on 19? Seems like they'd have an advantage moving down to 19? Plus, on many cable systems, KCNC 35/4 probably wouldn't be on either of those two channel numbers. And, on top of that, cable systems routinely mix up channel assignments. People do a re-scan of their box and learn where channels have moved.

And, with all due respect, why would anyone wanting to go from say channel 7 or 9 here in Denver scroll thru numerous channels to reach channel 35? I don't know about you, but I'd punch in 35 on the remote. Even the CECB converter boxes have remotes.

Jim,

If you want to complain to the FCC about PSIP, you must send snail mail or use fax. The address and fax number:

Federal Communications Commission
Enforcement Bureau
Spectrum Enforcement Division
445 12th Street, SW
Washington, DC 20554

Fax: (202)-418-2810

Trip, you've done some great work on Avs and I applaud you for it. It has been very helpful to me. But I hope we can agree to disagree on channel remapping. Remapping was pushed by the broadcasters. They didn't push for it without #1 in mind - themselves. Beside the $ in rebranding saved, I think it was the result of operating both digital and analog signals simutaneously. The public could be confused - should I tune KCNC on channel 4 or channel 35. Remapping probably served a purpose with dual signals. It doesn't after analog shutoff. Besides, KCNC always ID's itself as KCNC4/DT35. After analog cutoff, they could drop the 4.

I beg to differ with you, but I don't see how a smaller number, like KCNC 35 versus KCNC 4, is easier to remember. We're not talking 9 versus 1,327 here. Two digits are the max. What about stations such as WTEV in Jax, FL? Their analog is on 47, digital on 19? Seems like they'd have an advantage moving down to 19? Plus, on many cable systems, KCNC 35/4 probably wouldn't be on either of those two channel numbers. And, on top of that, cable systems routinely mix up channel assignments. People do a re-scan of their box and learn where channels have moved.

And, with all due respect, why would anyone wanting to go from say channel 7 or 9 here in Denver scroll thru numerous channels to reach channel 35? I don't know about you, but I'd punch in 35 on the remote. Even the CECB converter boxes have remotes.

I hope I didn't sound cross or upset about it, that wasn't how I was feeling when I typed it! Apologies if it came across that way! =)

We can agree to disagree, I'm just telling you what my experience with countless people has been. I cannot imagine most of the people who do rely on OTA having an easy time finding the channels with them all moved all over the dial.

EDIT: And I can tell you that people routinely use the channel up button. In most of the OTA-reliant homes I've been in, if the channel up button has anything written on it, it's worn off because it's the one button most often used. All the remotes for the TVs my father uses are like that, and that's just in my home. I've been in numerous others that are the same way. Old habits are tough to break, and when one doesn't have but a few channels, they're more likely to just channel up rather than put it in by hand. =)

- Trip

Trip, I didn't take your posts in any negative way. You were expressing your opinion, which is what Avs is for. I guess we're stuck with channel remapping in any case, but sometimes it's nice to just vent.

Rockies are on ch 20 today. anyone know if ch 20 will show it in HD?

Mapping is 100% necessary, because most people over a certain age can't adapt to change and technology very well. Note all the blinking VCRs that used to be prevalent as an example.

Mapping may seem confusing for those who are "in the know" but for the average person, it's absolutely essential. An affiliation switch is much less confusing than "every channel on your dial is moving somewhere else, make yourself a chart."

- Trip

Ah, let's take it easy on "most people over a certain age". As a lead year baby boomer with lots of fellow retiree friends, I hope I haven't reached that "certain age" yet. In fact, I explain to many of those younger and older than me what DTV is all about and what the changeover means to them. I also explain HDTV choices (pros and cons) and antenna options and problems. I don't think age has as much to do with it as does interest in the technology. My wife, 42 years old and a university grad, doesn't have any interest in this stuff and remains oblivious to most of it. Those things she knows and understands are only because I've bored her to death talking about it.

I know not all are, but most are. The fact is that the vast majority of people want to it to "just work" (as the Apple people would say).
- Trip

Now you are dissing us Mac users. I'm a licensed P.E., but I use a Mac because it is a better tool.

The bottom line is that mapping was implemented because the local stations feared a loss of viewers if they lost their channel branding, not because anyone cared about the viewers. The success nationwide of Fox stations with mostly UHF high channel numbers and the bizarre numbering of some very popular cable channels is evidence that their fears are unfounded. Not to mention that many local cable companies put local stations on cable channel numbers that don't match their station OTA channel numbers. Hasn't seemed to have hurt the ratings!

I don't think age has as much to do with it as does interest in the technology.

That's very true. Of course, to someone who's 19, almost everyone is older. ;)

I wasn't dissing the Mac users, I know that the things work and work well. You're talking to a full-time Linux user, so I'm one who knows very well about things not "just working." :)

- Trip

Rockies are on ch 20 today. anyone know if ch 20 will show it in HD?

My understanding is that 20 will not have any Rockies games in HD. Only FSRM.

Does channel 20 broadcast any programs in HD?

My20 does broadcast HD programs (20.1 OTA). They do not broadcast Rockies games in HD because the Rockies have chosen not to incur the additional cost of the HD broadcast. Mark Cornett of KUSA/Gannet has indicated that they would prefer to broadcast in HD, but the Rockies organization controls that decision.

Truth on the remapping issue is some stations did ask to have the option to not remap and the FCC denied that with the reasoning that people would have a hard time remembering which stations were where and it was in the public interest to remap to the analog channel number and make it the "channel of record."

For new stations post transition or stations with no analog channel, they would use their actual RF channel unless that number was already in use in that market, then the new station will have to pick a number not in use in the market and report same to the FCC.

Here's the Rockies schedule from their website.

http://colorado.rockies.mlb.com/col/schedule/broadcast.jsp

Looks like My20 is a no go for HD, but we already said that. But it also shows when games are not in HD on FSN. I'm guessing that the games that are on FOX nationally, will be in HD. But stranger things have happened. Oh, and there's a handful of games not on TV, and I'm guess that they won't be in HD (unless you count KOA HD-Radio).

Ah, let's take it easy on "most people over a certain age". As a lead year baby boomer with lots of fellow retiree friends, I hope I haven't reached that "certain age" yet.

Besides, most of us leading edge boomers have an advantage in the DTV era -- we remember what an antenna looks like!

My family didn't get cable until after I left for college in 1967. That was also the year they bought their first color TV. Maybe they were trying to tell me something :-)


Jim McCauley

Well, I guess we beat remapping to the point where it's a dead horse.

Anyone know if KTVD will be up and running on Lookout soon? As I recollect from the FCC filings, their intentions were Monday, the 14th.

and I have a cousin who's 48 and keeps asking 'Why does anything have to change?'

well, I guess it doesn't HAVE to...

The remapping makes sense only as an interim measure. Once the transition is complete, each station will again have a fixed channel. It will be ridiculous to continue to call a station channel 2 when it is broadcasting on channel 34.

Just heard the ch 4 noon news crew announce "several weeks of construction on our new studio set for our HD broadcasts, to begin on April 21."

Just heard the ch 4 noon news crew announce "several weeks of construction on our new studio set for our HD broadcasts, to begin on April 21."

Guess that's what KCNC will spend those saved newsroom and engineering salaries on…

I can see the meetings now - "We'll have less news content and our signal will be worse, but at least it'll be HD."

Gotta love it.

Anyone know if KTVD will be up and running on Lookout soon? As I recollect from the FCC filings, their intentions were Monday, the 14th.

I didn't know, so I wrote to KTVD directly:

According to filings at the FCC, it appears that you will commence broadcasting of KTVD-DT from the Lookout Mountain facility on 14 April 2008. Is that in fact the case? Many people in Northern Colorado who are considering the purchase of digital television receivers would like to know.

Also, your firm operates an analog-TV translator (K3EQ) in Fort Collins. Can you share with interested viewers in Northern Colorado what your plans are for this facility?

With surprising promptness, they wrote back:

For a number of reasons we have moved back the date to light up some of the new facilities at Look Out Mountain till Monday, April 21.

At that time KTVD will go to full power with a restricted pattern. KUSA will go low power with a restricted pattern. Following the FCC imposed freeze for maximization we hope that we will get some relief with the present pattern restriction on both KTVD and KUSA. On Feb 18th, 2009 KUSA will go on to full power from Look Out Mountain.

Because the KTVD analog translator in Ft. Collins is transmitting on the analog frequency that KCNC is going to use for their new digital operation, on April 21 when KCNC goes full power digital we will have to shut down the analog translator in Ft. Collins.

The message was signed "Ken Highberger, 9News."

Dunno exactly what "restricted pattern" means in this context, but I'll bet someone on this forum does.


Jim McCauley

I wonder "low power with restricted pattern" compares to the low power signal from Republic Plaza? Hopefully an improvement!

It would be icing on the cake if KTVD began transmitting DD 5.1 on their switchover to Lookout Mt.

It would be icing on the cake if KTVD began transmitting DD 5.1 on their switchover to Lookout Mt.I'm sure they will have the latest, greatest gear at their brand-new facility. Why wouldn't they?

No piece of electronics can get out in the world without someone sooner or later taking a soldering pencil to it.

Is anyone hardware hacking DTV converter boxes yet? Because they are so cheap with the government coupons, I figure that as folks replace them with digital TVs, hardware enthusiasts may find amusing uses for them.

Of course many elements (like the audio processing chips) will have been rendered lame, and there is also the market challenge: why hack something when you can get the actual device you want so cheaply?

Still, I'd like to see if there might be a way to get a CECB to participate in an Ethernet, in much the same way as an HDHomerun unit. Better still, I'd love to have a cheap and simple box that would stream recorded files from my noisy PC over an Ethernet to my existing set -- I can't find a solution that does that for less than $250.

Does anyone know of any CECB hacker websites? So far, I've only found this on another AVS Forum: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13386462


Jim McCauley

I got my coupons today. They expire on June 23rd.

I went ahead and ordered a Sansonic box over the web. I'll save the other coupon for later.

Still, I'd like to see if there might be a way to get a CECB to participate in an Ethernet, in much the same way as an HDHomerun unit. Better still, I'd love to have a cheap and simple box that would stream recorded files from my noisy PC over an Ethernet to my existing set -- I can't find a solution that does that for less than $250.

Xbox Media Center (http://xbmc.org/): $70-$100. I have three of them. The only limitation is that it can't do HD video. Unless you're implying that it's a requirement. Then, yeah, you're spending $250.

I emailed the Rockies to inquire about HD broadcasts on MY20 and this is there response:

"The reason that My20 broadcast are not HD to date is because the smaller markets that take that feed are unable to accept an HD signal. Hopefully they will be up to speed in the near future.



Thank you for your interest in Rockies Baseball!"

I must admit I am a little puzzled by this due to the fact that MY20 is currently broadcasting in both SD and HD on channels 20, 20-1 respectively. I sent a follow up email for further explanation.

I must admit I am a little puzzled by this due to the fact that MY20 is currently broadcasting in both SD and HD on channels 20, 20-1 respectively. I sent a follow up email for further explanation.

I believe what they are trying to say is that even though your local station can handle HD feeds, a majority of the stations that do air the games can't. The economics of doing HD for so few viewers is not cost effective.

I believe what they are trying to say is that even though your local station can handle HD feeds, a majority of the stations that do air the games can't. The economics of doing HD for so few viewers is not cost effective.

Maybe, but mostly it is a rationalization for not wanting to spend the money, period. On the Colorado Rockies website the only broadcast TV station listed is KTVD, though it does say "flagship" (there is a large list of radio stations, BTW). Even if there are other stations that carry the games, they would be from much smaller markets, with the largest of them possibly being Cheyenne WY and Albuquerque, NM. The vast majority of viewere would be in the Denver market served by KTVD.

I believe what they are trying to say is that even though your local station can handle HD feeds, a majority of the stations that do air the games can't. The economics of doing HD for so few viewers is not cost effective.

What are the typical arrangements for situations such as this? The station is owned by Gannett and has stated that they would prefer to do an HD broadcast. They say the Rockies control that decision. Is the cost of providing the HD broadcast born by the team, the station, or shared in some fashion? HDJello is right about the Denver area being the largest share of their viewing audience. If the economics for FSN-RM work, why wouldn't they work for MY20 in the same market?

Maybe, but mostly it is a rationalization for not wanting to spend the money, period.

That statement is more likely near the truth. They'd rather put a spin on not being HD, when in fact they are too cheap to do it because the ROI will take more years then the bean counters normally like.

What are the typical arrangements for situations such as this? The station is owned by Gannett and has stated that they would prefer to do an HD broadcast. They say the Rockies control that decision. Is the cost of providing the HD broadcast born by the team, the station, or shared in some fashion? HDJello is right about the Denver area being the largest share of their viewing audience. If the economics for FSN-RM work, why wouldn't they work for MY20 in the same market?

Damn good question, without a damn good answer from me. I've never persoanlly dug into sports contracts, since I really do not care, as I don't watch sports. Oh, I've seen portions of games, in order to check out various technical aspects, but don't sit down weekend after weekend follow this team or that team. The only sport I do go after is the Little League World Series games. The kids are not overpaid sports figures (not yet anyway). They love the game they are playing and it is fun to watch (especially if I get to see it commercial free).

In any event, it ultimately comes down to contracts. As for FSN, they get money from the cable or DBS companies. Isn't FSN in a sports package, such even if a subscriber of said package didn't want FSN, they'll end up paying for it anyway, because the subscriber bought the package because they wanted some other service that is part of the package. In the case of OTA TV, the only money that the TV station gets is what they can charge for advertising. They can only charge so much before no one will buy ad time. Out of that income, they probably have to pay a bundle to the Rockies. Doesn't leave much for the station and probably doesn't leave much to produce a game in HD.

There will be a time where producing live events in HD will be no more expensive than it is to produce SD live events. It is kinda like going from B&W to color. Going color was expense at first as well. Try buying equipment that only does B&W these days :) In the future it will be hard to try and buy anything that is SD. That is then, that isn't now.

There are others here who I am sure have inside info on the cost of doing these sports broadcasts. They can provide more light on the situation.

Otherwise, that was my two cents (five cents for it to be in HD :D

I'm sure they will have the latest, greatest gear at their brand-new facility. Why wouldn't they?

I haven't kept on all the latest goings-on in Denver, but is KTVD building a new studio and digital infrastructure?

Damn good question, without a damn good answer from me. I've never persoanlly dug into sports contracts, since I really do not care, as I don't watch sports.

Most local team contracts only care about coverage, not about HD. HD is a secondary item if at all mentioned. If you can see or hear the team, that is good enough for them.

Most local team contracts only care about coverage, not about HD. HD is a secondary item if at all mentioned. If you can see or hear the team, that is good enough for them.

You're probably right, but that seems pretty short-sighted these days. We all know what the SD version of RSN's look like on cable and DBS systems...yuck. I bet I'm not the only one out there that is more likely to NOT watch a local sports team if the broadcast is only available in SD. Conversely, I will actively seek out and watch almost every HD presentatiion of the hometown heroes. I say More HD = Higher Ratings in our increasingly HD-sensitive viewing world!

You're probably right, but that seems pretty short-sighted these days. We all know what the SD version of RSN's look like on cable and DBS systems...yuck. I bet I'm not the only one out there that is more likely to NOT watch a local sports team if the broadcast is only available in SD. Conversely, I will actively seek out and watch almost every HD presentatiion of the hometown heroes. I say More HD = Higher Ratings in our increasingly HD-sensitive viewing world!

They are betting you are such a fan that you will be happy to hear the game on a soup can and string. The dollar rules when the local contracts are written.

You're probably right, but that seems pretty short-sighted these days. We all know what the SD version of RSN's look like on cable and DBS systems...yuck. I bet I'm not the only one out there that is more likely to NOT watch a local sports team if the broadcast is only available in SD. Conversely, I will actively seek out and watch almost every HD presentatiion of the hometown heroes. I say More HD = Higher Ratings in our increasingly HD-sensitive viewing world!
This discussion should extend to other Denver sports teams as well. I turned on game one of the Stanley Cup playoffs to see the Avalanche on Altitude in SD only. With the compression DISH puts on the SD Altitude channel it isn't enjoyable (I didn't watch many away games because of this). Luckily I had a second option--a grey market Canadian dish--and watched the game in HD on TSN. I'm just one viewer but how many other didn't bother watching at all?

This discussion should extend to other Denver sports teams as well. I turned on game one of the Stanley Cup playoffs to see the Avalanche on Altitude in SD only. With the compression DISH puts on the SD Altitude channel it isn't enjoyable (I didn't watch many away games because of this). Luckily I had a second option--a grey market Canadian dish--and watched the game in HD on TSN. I'm just one viewer but how many other didn't bother watching at all?

It was tough to watch last night - I think the only way to get the away games in HD is to subscribe to Hockey Sports Package (not sure what it is called) or as you have done. That seem fair. Altitude gives us the home games in HD without any extra charge. At some point in the future all games will be HD as SD goes away.

This discussion should extend to other Denver sports teams as well. I turned on game one of the Stanley Cup playoffs to see the Avalanche on Altitude in SD only. With the compression DISH puts on the SD Altitude channel it isn't enjoyable (I didn't watch many away games because of this). Luckily I had a second option--a grey market Canadian dish--and watched the game in HD on TSN. I'm just one viewer but how many other didn't bother watching at all?

I agree that at least for the playoffs all games should be in HD. The difference with the Rockies discussion is that MY20 has OTA HD capabilities for the home market and the Rockies have chosen not to take advantage of that.

I agree that at least for the playoffs all games should be in HD. The difference with the Rockies discussion is that MY20 has OTA HD capabilities for the home market and the Rockies have chosen not to take advantage of that.

I think the reason the Rockies games are not in HD has more to do with the fact (at least for previous years) that most of the games are weekend telecasts and especially for home games, the Rockies would rather you spend your money and take the family to the game rather than stay at home and watch on TV. I haven't looked at this years list of games but I suspect that may have something to do with their decision.

As for the Avs game, the only way to see the game in HD here was with a "Canadian" service such as Star Choice or Bell Expressview. In any sports package and NHLCI, the away Avs games are also blacked on other channels if Altitude is covering the game in this region. The only away games that would be not blacked out are the national Versus and NBC games. Friday's game is national on Versus, but their HD channel will be preempted by the Golf coverage so unless Altitude had the rights and chose to cover the game in HD, you better get a Canadian dish up before Friday.

"Friday's game is national on Versus, but their HD channel will be preempted by the Golf coverage so unless Altitude had the rights and chose to cover the game in HD, you better get a Canadian dish up before Friday."

Right now the guide says Live From the Masters is on VSGLF but it is NHL playoffs which is the right decision IMO. So it looks like that will be the case also tomorrow with the Avs game.

"Friday's game is national on Versus, but their HD channel will be preempted by the Golf coverage so unless Altitude had the rights and chose to cover the game in HD, you better get a Canadian dish up before Friday."

Right now the guide says Live From the Masters is on VSGLF but it is NHL playoffs which is the right decision IMO. So it looks like that will be the case also tomorrow with the Avs game.

Same thing here, but if the game is on Altitude tomorrow as scheduled, Versus would be blacked out here anyway. I suppose there could be a twist if the schedule on Versus shows the Masters coverage and the network switched to hockey we might not get blacked out if the 'computers' still show the Masters is on.
FWIW, I switched onto Versus HD as late as 6 PM and they were showing golf on the HD channel, so the hockey didn't start until later on in the evening.

Sorry to be OT to the thread.

John,

You need to take a look at your last two posts. If I'm reading them correctly, you say their is no blackout of national Versus games and then you say they are blacked out. The Post shows the game (on the sports page TV schedule) as being on both Altitude and Versus.

KUSA has joined the moronic bottom third crowd.

On My Name Is Earl a nice bottom third talking about the digital transition - on the bottom of the HD feed on KUSA-DT.

Now when there's a graphic about the DTV transition on the bottom of an upscaled 4:3 program, I can understand that, but why advertise the transition on the bottom of a signal you're not seeing unless you can already receive DTV?

As stated earlier, the FCC requires it until March 31, 2009, analog AND digital.

Digital Television Consumer Education Order http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/FCC-08-56A1.pdf

As stated earlier, the FCC requires it until March 31, 2009, analog AND digital.

My fault; I apologize.

As occurs far too often, a government regulation that makes no sense… :mad:

What will be fun is when severe weather season starts in most areas of the country:


The crawls should not block any closed captioning or emergency information, and any closed captioning or emergency information should not block DTV Transition-related crawls. Cf. 47 C.F.R. § 79.2(b)(3) (prohibiting closed captioning from blocking emergency information, and vice versa).

As occurs far too often, a government regulation that makes no sense…

Actually not because in some markets cable and sat are taking the digital signals now and porting them to analog channels on their systems. As we get closer that will become more common and for those who are watching the downcoverted digital signal, they would have no idea if the digital wasn't required to air the information as well. We can't live in a vacuum on this.

What will be fun is when severe weather season starts in most areas of the country:

Simple. Stations will drop one for the other and then resume.

I know that it was mentioned here but I will be darned if I can find it. I spent some time searching the thread and even more looking for the KMGH form 387 filing with Google. Unfortunately, I came up empty. Was it stated that KMGH is going to remain on Republic Plaza until analog goes dark. I think I read that, then some other information that they had applied to move their current LP xmitter to Lookout. Which is correct?

Phil

I know that it was mentioned here but I will be darned if I can find it. I spent some time searching the thread and even more looking for the KMGH form 387 filing with Google. Unfortunately, I came up empty. Was it stated that KMGH is going to remain on Republic Plaza until analog goes dark. I think I read that, then some other information that they had applied to move their current LP xmitter to Lookout. Which is correct?

Phil

The KMGH transition plan filed on 2/19/2008 was silent on what they would do with their temporay facilities during the rest of the transition period.

Someone pointed out that they had recently filed a new STA request.

A Query at the FCC website for KMGH-TV showed that KMGH filed an application for an STA on 4/3/2008. The STA proposes a 30KW Channel 17 transmitter located at the location of the LCG antenna. The reported status of the request was "ACCEPTED FOR FILING".

OT on Avs Telecasts


John,

You need to take a look at your last two posts. If I'm reading them correctly, you say their is no blackout of national Versus games and then you say they are blacked out. The Post shows the game (on the sports page TV schedule) as being on both Altitude and Versus.

The issue has to do with the exclusive nature of some games picked up by national channels. Regular season games and some playoff games are 'exclusive' to Versus and NBC. Those games are telecast nationally and are NOT blacked out locally as Altitude would not have telecast rights. The more obvious example are the weekend NBC games or the Stanley Cup Finals if the Avs were to participate. For the game on Friday, the channel guide says it will also be on Altitude, which means that Versus does not have exclusive rights to this particular telecast and thus AFAIK it will be blacked out locally on Versus to force us to watch on Altitude. I was not aware that Altitude was going to televise tonights game when I heard it was on Versus, so I figured it would be in the clear here too.

Sorry to be confusing, but I don't know what the contracts read for the early rounds of the playoffs, so I can only know what the guide says and then base the prediction on past information. Whenever there is a double rights game (such as Versus and Altitude or a NHLChannel/Altitude game) the Altitude contract has always taken priority locally and the games are blacked out on the other channel. This forces you to have the subscription to the local RSN and not get the game on a national lower tier channel like Versus. On the other hand, when Versus or NBC get the 'exclusive' rights (Stanley Cup Finals, some other playoff games, weekly regular season telecasts etc.) then Altitude is not allowed to telecast the game too.

As for tonight, I can only assume (I know......it will get me in trouble) that since Altitude also has the game listed (SD only) that the game is NOT exclusive to Versus and would thus Versus would be blacked out locally, even if it appeared on the Versus/Golf HD channel. As I said, this is based on history from previous years, we won't know for sure what this years contracts allow until tonight, but I would be surprised if it has changed.

Hope that clarifies things rather than adds to the confusion.

A bit of further information regarding the 4/11/08 AVs/Wild game:

The game will start at 7:00 PM on Altitude SD only. It will be joined in progress on Versus after their earlier game ends. As far as I can tell right now, it will not be in HD on Versus either. :mad:

For those who have access to Canadian TV such as Star Choice, I believe it is scheduled to be in HD on there.

A bit of further information regarding the 4/11/08 AVs/Wild game:

The game will start at 7:00 PM on Altitude SD only. It will be joined in progress on Versus after their earlier game ends. As far as I can tell right now, it will not be in HD on Versus either. :mad:

For those who have access to Canadian TV such as Star Choice, I believe it is scheduled to be in HD on there.

Yes, scheduled for TSN HD in Canada and some ports south of the border.

OT again--sorry

FWIW, Versus HD is showing Hockey (Flyers/Caps) on the HD channel tonight not golf.

No OTA hockey tonight, so I would suggest we move any additional conversations on this topic to
Denver, CO Satellite thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13571342#post13571342)

which although still not exactly the proper thread (doesn't refer to cable carry issues) is more appropriate than this thread.

Actually not because in some markets cable and sat are taking the digital signals now and porting them to analog channels on their systems. As we get closer that will become more common and for those who are watching the downcoverted digital signal, they would have no idea if the digital wasn't required to air the information as well. We can't live in a vacuum on this.

If they have cable or satellite, nothing will change for them anyway.

If they have cable or satellite, nothing will change for them anyway.

This is true but if they have one analog set on cable/sat and cable/sat is taking the digital channel downconverted and the rest of their TVs are on rabbit ears and they use those for background noise (which many additional TVs are in cable/sat homes), they may never see it on the analog channels on those non cable sets. That is the thought process on this at the federal level.

We all can complain about it but it isn't going away. It is the law and stations have to do it until March 31 2009 least Congress puts more regulations out there on public education on the transition. Something your friendly neighborhood Democratic legislators are still pushing very hard for as late as this past Tuesday. They still believe not enough in education is being done on the transition. It could be worse.

If they have cable or satellite, nothing will change for them anyway.
There was an article in the Boulder paper today about some small cable systems that have requested and been granted some kind of waiver from the FCC such that they could convert to all digital and still charge the customers for each cable box. One woman who had five or six TVs said they wanted her to pay $6.95/mo. for each cable box.

Thanks for that!
So I guess that they may actually be moving to Lookout before the cutoff after all. I can't see why the request would not be approved.

The main one for me is KCNC. Though I can get it fine with my main antenna now, the recievers connected to my secondary antenna will not get a lock. This is kind of strange because all of the rest of the RP stations work fine on that antenna. It will be nice to be able to set the secondary antenna to point at Lookout (no rotor on that one) and just get all the stations.

BTW, I got my coupons about a week ago. Anybody here have any recommendations on what box to get?

Phil

The KMGH transition plan filed on 2/19/2008 was silent on what they would do with their temporay facilities during the rest of the transition period.

Someone pointed out that they had recently filed a new STA request.

A Query at the FCC website for KMGH-TV showed that KMGH filed an application for an STA on 4/3/2008. The STA proposes a 30KW Channel 17 transmitter located at the location of the LCG antenna. The reported status of the request was "ACCEPTED FOR FILING".

[QUOTE=ppasteur;13624099]BTW, I got my coupons about a week ago. Anybody here have any recommendations on what box to get?/QUOTE]

The Zenith DTT900 has been working well for me here in Fort Collins, which is a fringe reception locale. Note that some users have observed audio distortion on the left channel during Dolby 5.1 broadcasts. I have yet to hear it from my unit, but then, my hearing is not what it once was.


Jim McCauley

Have any antennas been installed on the new tower?

--- CHAS

Have any antennas been installed on the new tower?

--- CHAS

Well, with April 21 fast approaching for channels 4, 9, and 20, I would say so. It seems that RF output testing should be imminent. Time for a field trip up to lookout to check it out. KMGH where are you? Just waiting for STA clearance from our friends at the FCC? No clear answers about that one... (seems vaguely familiar). Seems like they could find a spare transmission antenna laying around that they could hang on the new tower (I won't tell them to look in their closet), so that shouldn't be a problem.

Don

Jim,
Thanks for that. From what I have read so far, all of the boxes seem to have some problems. I live at the bottom of Bear Valley. It is a lousy place for reception. Even though I can see Lookout from my roof, RP is over a ridge and down from me. It takes a RS VU 210 35 feet above my two story roof pointed downtown to get me 60% signals on my H20. Moving the antenna 5 degrees in either direction can result in no lock. Once all of the stations are on Lookout it should not be a problem (this is why I am really hoping KMGH moves sooner rather than later It is my worst station from RP). So I guees that the sensitivity of the box I get will not be a huge deal once they all move. I am concerned about the audio on the Zenith. I will be using the box through an external amp and some decent speakers in the garage. My ears are not as good as they once were either, but some people have reported the noise/distortion in the left channel to be pretty bad with the Zenith box. I think that this would end up being real aggravating.

Anyone else have any experience with any of the coupon boxes to help me out in my decision?

Thanks,

Phil


[QUOTE=ppasteur;13624099]
The Zenith DTT900 has been working well for me here in Fort Collins, which is a fringe reception locale. Note that some users have observed audio distortion on the left channel during Dolby 5.1 broadcasts. I have yet to hear it from my unit, but then, my hearing is not what it once was.


Jim McCauley

So, what kind of roof antenna would people (more in the know than me) recommend for Loveland? Corner of Eisenhower and Wilson on a single story house. Would I need a rotor to swing it around for Fox 31's N. Colorado re-transmission tower, or would that be overkill? The more stable I can have the antenna the better due to the high winds that whip up around our community's small lake and close proximity to the foothills every so often.

I would assume it would need long range VHS and UHF capabilities since it looks like some digital stations will be moving back down the band (why, I don't know since they are more apt to be prone to weather and microwave interferences over long distances... at least that seemed to be the case with the old analog signals) or should I wait until the stations are running at full power from Lookout? Would that affect which model to get, or am I going to be in the fringe area of the transmissions anyway?

Any recommendations for a good installer around these parts too? I'm not that handy, unfortunately.

So, what kind of roof antenna would people (more in the know than me) recommend for Loveland? Corner of Eisenhower and Wilson on a single story house. Would I need a rotor to swing it around for Fox 31's N. Colorado re-transmission tower, or would that be overkill? The more stable I can have the antenna the better due to the high winds that whip up around our community's small lake and close proximity to the foothills every so often.

I would assume it would need long range VHS and UHF capabilities since it looks like some digital stations will be moving back down the band (why, I don't know since they are more apt to be prone to weather and microwave interferences over long distances... at least that seemed to be the case with the old analog signals) or should I wait until the stations are running at full power from Lookout? Would that affect which model to get, or am I going to be in the fringe area of the transmissions anyway?

Any recommendations for a good installer around these parts too? I'm not that handy, unfortunately.

I entered 1800 W Eisenhower into TV Fool.Com and it is about 50 miles +or- from lookout and Mt. Morrison. Once the stations all go to Lookout/Mt. Morrison, you will probably have line of sight to them and you should be able to mount an antenna pretty low on a rooftop tripod. A deep fringe antenna will probably work without a pre-amp.

Enter your exact address here: http://www.tvfool.com/index.php?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29 and you can see what channels are/will be available.

I'm north west of LaPorte 65 miles from Lookout and have a big yagi antenna with a 28 DB pre-amp. Right now I get 2.1, 14.1 and 31.1 from Lookout/Mt. Morrison. On cool mornings, I can pickup 7.1, 9.1, 9.2 and 20.1 from Republic Plaza with a weak signal. I have a ridge 13 miles south that presents a 400 foot barrier from Lookout, but it is less than half a degree deflection and works OK.

If you get to Fort Collins, stop in at Mountain States Electronics at 2107 South College and talk to them about antennas. I don't know if they do installs, but would expect them to know who is good in the area.

John

Thank you!

I think we're getting close to a first transmission from the new tower. They originally said this week, but then pushed it back (due to missing flange) until next week. Who knows, it could be any time now!

Hard to believe they (we) have come this far. :D

How will we know when they are live? Will there be any middle of the night testing or will they just flip a switch?

This morning, my weekly scan picked up a new channel, KWHD-DT (53-1) on digital channel 46 on both my PC and my Zenith DTT900. This is a religious channel affiliated with LeSEA Broadcasting (Lester Sumrall Evangelistic Association), also known as World Harvest Television.

Other news: I got a lock (but no decodable signal) for KUSA-DT (9-1 and 9-2) on digital channel 16 and on KGMH-DT (7-1) on digital channel 17. This is the first time that either of these has appeared on any of my scans.

I also got a lock on digital channel 51, but no decodable signal. I have no station information for this channel.

Still no signal at all from digital channel 18 (RMPBS) at least during the daytime.


Jim McCauley

This morning, my weekly scan picked up a new channel, KWHD-DT (53-1) on digital channel 46 on both my PC and my Zenith DTT900.

Since around 2004, KWHD-DT was one of the first channels (and sometimes the only) channel I can get with my rabbit ears living just south of Parker and Arapahoe RD. Their tower is further south and east of my location.

So, what kind of roof antenna would people (more in the know than me) recommend for Loveland? Corner of Eisenhower and Wilson on a single story house. Would I need a rotor to swing it around for Fox 31's N. Colorado re-transmission tower, or would that be overkill? The more stable I can have the antenna the better due to the high winds that whip up around our community's small lake and close proximity to the foothills every so often.

I would assume it would need long range VHS and UHF capabilities since it looks like some digital stations will be moving back down the band (why, I don't know since they are more apt to be prone to weather and microwave interferences over long distances... at least that seemed to be the case with the old analog signals) or should I wait until the stations are running at full power from Lookout? Would that affect which model to get, or am I going to be in the fringe area of the transmissions anyway?

Any recommendations for a good installer around these parts too? I'm not that handy, unfortunately.

Dan,

I live in Milliken and work in Fort Collins. The only people I know in northern CO actively installing television antennas is University TV Service on S. Mason (1/2 block north of Horsetooth), in Fort Collins. Perhaps Mountain States can help you with an antenna, but I would strongly recommend the Channel Master 4228 UHF antenna, an 8 bowtie antenna. The CM 4228 is the *best* compact antenna for UHF, which I currently have installed on a rotator @ 20'. I know several tv/radio engineers around the country that also personally use the CM 4228. If you can't locate one locally, you can order one from Stark Electronics. Here is their website link:

http://www.starkelectronic.com/

Jim Thomas
Milliken, Colorado

I think we're getting close to a first transmission from the new tower. They originally said this week, but then pushed it back (due to missing flange) until next week. Who knows, it could be any time now!

No, not flanges again! :D

I know several tv/radio engineers around the country that also personally use the CM 4228.

I found a page of interesting detail on this antenna from a fellow who sounds like he knows what he's talking about:

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/cm4228.html

If you find that one CM 4228 does not cut it, the author has an ambitious project for ganging two antennas:

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/16bay.html

I tried something like this when I was young and foolish and living in California's Central Valley. The ganged pair worked quite well, but I darn near died putting the thing on the roof.


Jim McCauley

What is really interesting on the primer is that you can use the 4228 also for high VHF which for the Denver stations on Lookout mtn might work....though changing antennas to one design a around the narrower band channel 7 to channel 50 might make sense.

I have not been able to get KDEV-LP (Analog 39 out of South Denver) for the last few days. It is always snowy, which does not surprise me since it is a Low Power station and a fair distance from Louisville. Lately, my TVs are reporting "No Signal".

I am curious whether anyone is receiving it. I would think people in Aurora, Parker, etc would get it well, if it is on the air.

I have not been able to get KDEV-LP (Analog 39 out of South Denver) for the last few days. It is always snowy, which does not surprise me since it is a Low Power station and a fair distance from Louisville. Lately, my TVs are reporting "No Signal".

I am curious whether anyone is receiving it. I would think people in Aurora, Parker, etc would get it well, if it is on the air.

Ken,

I don't know about KDEV-LP, since I don't watch analog anymore, but KDEV-DT (11-1) is rock solid here, but then I think I'm about 10 miles from their digital tower. No matter which way the CM 4228 is pointed, the signal is a *lock*, meaning, always there. BTW, I called Equity Broadcasting Partners in Little Rock and left a message for Martin, the Exec. Dir. of Programming for RTN that the PSIP data for KDEV-DT is screwed up. The RF for KDEV-DT is 11, but should remap to 39, but it stays on 11 on the EPG on my Insignia box. I guess I'll have to see if he calls me back.

Also, I continue to get a signal during some mornings on RF 10, but the Insignia box hasn't been able to decode to anything yet. Maybe one of these days I'll get to find out if I'm getting hints of Colo. Springs. A tv/radio dxer buddy of mine in South Carolina was experiencing *tropo* conditions last night into Florida. He received several Florida DTV channels out to about 350 miles. Got to love that warm, humid climate that spawns those type of conditions :D

Jim Thomas
Milliken, Colorado

I have not been able to get KDEV-LP (Analog 39 out of South Denver) for the last few days.

kenavs,

KDEV-LP conked out over the weekend and hasn't been back since. We've got nothing but snow as well. They're usually clear as a bell here, but then, TVFool has their 35-kW transmitter 3.8 miles from me. That puts it somewhere close by I-225 and Parker Road.

Unfortunately, we can't get their digital signal, KDEV-DT, with any reliability. Comes in about every full moon or so, but there are two 100-kW FM transmitters directly between me and the signal whose first harmonics are right over channel 11, so even the FM trap can't take care of it. :(

kenavs,

KDEV-LP conked out over the weekend and hasn't been back since. We've got nothing but snow as well. They're usually clear as a bell here, but then, TVFool has their 35-kW transmitter 3.8 miles from me. That puts it somewhere close by I-225 and Parker Road.

Unfortunately, we can't get their digital signal, KDEV-DT, with any reliability. Comes in about every full moon or so, but there are two 100-kW FM transmitters directly between me and the signal whose first harmonics are right over channel 11, so even the FM trap can't take care of it. :(

Thanks for the info. At least I now know it is not a just a problem at my end. I am probably close enough to get the digital station, but I need a directional antenna arrangement for the Denver stations, and I have not been able to get 11 off the back of my south facing antennas. I may play around once things stabalize next February. Lookout and Mt Morrison are within a few degrees of each other for me. I do have 2 antennas, and I may be able to point the UHF only to the north when KBDI-DT moves to 13.

Never really watched KDEV's analog station. Their digital comes in rock solid on the backside of my antenna pointed at RP. I am also very close to their transmitter. They have two of my favorite shows of all time, Get Smart and Wild, Wild West.

Get Smart and Wild, Wild West.I loved both those shows! I can't wait until the re-make of Get Smart comes out this summer.

Here's the teaser...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCyP8z6Wgus

KDEV-LP (39 analog) is definitely off the air.

I've never seen even a sniff of KDEV-DT here in Louisville (it may as well be KRMA-DT. ;))

On the other hand what's with KDEN-DT and KRMT-DT? My CECB box can decode them but both my S3 TiVO and Sony HDTV see a strong signal but no actual decodable channels. Really messed up PSIP data?

KDEV-LP (39 analog) is definitely off the air.

On the other hand what's with KDEN-DT and KRMT-DT? My CECB box can decode them but both my S3 TiVO and Sony HDTV see a strong signal but no actual decodable channels. Really messed up PSIP data?


I talked to Kevin today, the engineer of KRMT-DT 40-1 (v 41), the Daystar affiliate, about their PSIP data. To date, their PSIP shows they are broadcasting on 40-1, plus subchannels of 40-2 through 40-17. Technically, that shouldn't be happening. There should only be 40-1, (plus possibly a few others, if they used them, such as 40-2, 40-3, & 40-4). Anyway, all of those subchannels are dark, with the exception of 40-17, where the primary signal is. He said he is aware of the problem and it is a matter of waiting for the correct equipment for the digital signal to be sent to them from Daystar's corporate office, to correct the problem. He mentioned they are lacking a piece of equipment in the *chain* and that is what is messing up the PSIP. Not being an engineer, I'm not sure what piece of equipment that is - maybe someone else here does.

Since they are analog 41, I thought they would remap to that channel, but Kevin said they are going to stay on 40 after the switch.

I personally haven't noticed any problems with KDEN-DT on the Insignia box.

Jim Thomas
Milliken, Colorado

I personally haven't noticed any problems with KDEN-DT on the Insignia box.

That's what I was saying originally; I can receive KDEN-DT and KRMT-DT on both of my Zenith DTT900s, but my S3 TiVO, my Sony HDTV and a Coship satellite/ATSC receiver I own all report high signal strength but "No Signal" when attempting to tune 25-1 or 40-17.

Thanks for the update on KRMT-DT.

I think KDEV cranked up the power of their digital transmitter. I've never been able to get them, and now suddenly I'm getting them at 80%.

It's so strong it's stomping all over KKTV's signal out here. Either that, or my box just doesn't like that they are both trying to map to 11. It's kind of bittersweet for me... On one hand, no more CBS...but on the other, much more Wild, Wild West...

In early Feb. 2008, KDEV filed a request with the FCC to shut down their analog LP on channel 39. Since they are now apparently off the air, I presume they were granted this request although the FCC database doesn't reflect approval of the request as I write this.

As far as their digital channel 11 PSIP info, the last time I watched them they were showing program guide info from their Buffalo, NY affiliate and showing some commercials from Buffalo during their programming. Sometimes they show stuff from their NE Ohio affiliate (RTN network). I have to wonder if KDEV will ever get their PSIP info correct. With no local contact and screwed up PSIP since day 1, RTN is not exactly a first class operation.

In early Feb. 2008, KDEV filed a request with the FCC to shut down their analog LP on channel 39.

Are you certain of that? I just poked around in the FCC CDBS and TV query, and the Form 387 to which you refer pertains to KDEV-TV 33/DT 11 in Cheyenne, carrying Facility ID 18287. KDEV-LP Aurora has a different Facility ID, 29455, for which the most recent filing is a March 2006 license-renewal application. Bureaucracy being what it is, I'd think Denver Broadcasting would have been required to file an analog-shutdown request under both facility IDs if that's what they had intended.

Even so, the fact that Channel 39 has been MIA for about five days doesn't bode well for its future, does it?

RTN is not exactly a first class operation.

They're definitely a shoestring outfit. RTN is available as an free-to-air (unscrambled) satellite channel. The KDEV group has simply been broadcasting whatever's on that feed.

I got the Sansonic FT-300A converter box today and, without changing the antenna pointing (more or less southerly), I get KWGN, KTFD, and KDVR with great pictures. KDEV breaks up some and KDEN has great audio, but no picture. I get very low signal strength readings on KRMA and KUSA, but no detection.

I've got a large Channel Master antenna on the roof (two story) that looks through a tree, but no amplifier. The antenna cable is fairly long as it routes through the basement. It is snowing now outside, so that may be also affecting reception.

The three stations that have a good signal look much better now than they ever did with an analog signal.

The weather is going to improve in a few days, so I'll use the signal strength function to see if I can point the antenna better.

While scanning the local channels this morning during the LIVE broadcast of the President receiving the Pope at the White House, I noticed that there was a substantial difference in up-convert between the three stations that chose to show it live. I'm guessing it was a common feed, so the original source was equal for all. What they did with it after they got it is what made the difference.

At first I thought that ABC/GMA on KMGH-DT might actually have the broadcast in HD. No such luck and the PQ was as bad as I've seen SD on my HDTV. Tried CBS on KCNC-DT and had the same horrid SD PQ.

Finally, I switched to KWGN-DT, local channel 2.1, and was amazed at the difference. Kudos to KWGN for providing the best SD digital PQ in Denver. BTW, KUSA had the Today Show taped delayed, which they didn't cut in on and Fox 31 didn't pick up the feed during their morning newscast.

Anyway, since I won't likely see all HDTV programming/broadcasts in my lifetime, it is good to know one of our locals is providing the best digital SD that they can.

I definitly agree with you there. KWGN's newscast can almost trick you into thinking it's HD at times.

Still no sign of KDEV-DT in Louisville, so I'm not sure what direction they've "cranked up their power" to but it's not this way. :)

Does anyone know the location that KDEV is presently transmitting from?

Does anyone know the location that KDEV is presently transmitting from?

It's a strange little station. The digital transmitter is operating from Horsetooth Mountain, which is southwest of Fort Collins. Here is the FCC's service contour map:

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=DT992248.html

Transmitter coordinates are N 40° 32' 46.5" W 105° 11' 51.9".

Oddly enough, the station actually seems to be licensed in Wyoming(!).


Jim McCauley

Horsetooth?? That means their coming in through the back of my antenna and I'm still getting them this strong. They must have that thing pointed right at my house! Hope I don't wake up one night to find my toaster sitting at the foot of my bed...

It's also getting received through the back of my directional antenna. It's location and pattern explain why I get a Wyoming station!

Yes, KDEV-DT used to be Cheyenne's NBC and later ABC station, KKTU-33. Equity bought the station, found they could move the DT-11 south into the Denver market, and did so.

I imagine that they will attempt to get the city of license changed from Cheyenne to something in Colorado so as to gain must-carry on cable and satellite in Denver.

- Trip

KDEV-LP 39 was back on the air with its regular schedule as of late yesterday afternoon. Now we won't have to miss this week's "Unreliable Sources!" :D

I know we've speculated lots - but straight from CBS4 - HD newscasts (with HD remote capabilities) start on Monday: http://pod08.prospero.com/n/blogs/blog.aspx?webtag=KCNC_kleigh

Does that mean that they will be broadcasting from Lookout?

Not necessarily - it just means they will originate their local news in HD. Now, the 20th has been a date that's been thrown around as first signals from the new tower, so it's not outside the realm of possibility that the Lookout broadcasts will be active then.

I got the Sansonic FT-300A converter box today

Could you tell us where you got it, cost, features? Would you recommend it? Analog passthru? Timer?

My coupons expire end of May. thanks

Not necessarily - it just means they will originate their local news in HD. Now, the 20th has been a date that's been thrown around as first signals from the new tower, so it's not outside the realm of possibility that the Lookout broadcasts will be active then.
On April 7, 2008 Jim McCauley posted info he got from KTVD in post #2669: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13582749#post13582749. The statement from a KTVD spokeperson clearly implied that KTVD, KUSA, and KCNC were all expected to be on the air from Lookout Mountain on April 21, 2008.
I have noticed references to employee safety in FCC filings which lead me to believe that there are restrictions on activities when the antennas are powered. That would lead me to believe that a coordinated activation of the LCG antennas is necessary. That would be consistent with those 3 going active at the same time.

I am not sure that I follow your logic, though I hope that the end game you describe is what happens. With the numbers of towers accross the US that have multiple antennas for different stations on them, it is hard to believe that they have to shut down all transmissions from all of them on a given tower to allow one station to do maintainence. In any case, if what you conjecture is accurate, how will KMGH ever get their antenna and transmitter going without requiring all of the others to go dark... hmmmm

Phil

[QUOTE=I have noticed references to employee safety in FCC filings which lead me to believe that there are restrictions on activities when the antennas are powered. That would lead me to believe that a coordinated activation of the LCG antennas is necessary. That would be consistent with those 3 going active at the same time.[/QUOTE]

I am not sure that I follow your logic, though I hope that the end game you describe is what happens. With the numbers of towers accross the US that have multiple antennas for different stations on them, it is hard to believe that they have to shut down all transmissions from all of them on a given tower to allow one station to do maintainence. In any case, if what you conjecture is accurate, how will KMGH ever get their antenna and transmitter going without requiring all of the others to go dark... hmmmm

Phil

OSHA requires any RF radiation emitter to reduce or turn off when human tissue is within a certain exposure level. No logic to follow. Shared towers are real buggers to get everyone on board for a turn down or off to do any work on a tower at a certain time. Some companies will not get into shared tower situations because of that very reason. Others will to try and save money.

Could you tell us where you got it, cost, features? Would you recommend it? Analog passthru? Timer?

My coupons expire end of May. thanksI got the unit from from FreeDTVShop.com for $59.99. I posted a review in this thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1008314).