After this weekend, I think those of us primarily interested in the mainline Denver stations will find that whatever antenna we already have is "good enough"; that's one of the beauties of DTV. I have a nice compact RadioShack U75R in my garage and a CM 4228 outside; given how clearly both of these can pick up KUSA and KMGH analog, I don't anticipate any problems with high VHF next February.

Detailed antenna comparisons will then be primarily of interest to those on the far fringes of the metro area or who need/want to pick up the smaller stations at odd locations.

After this weekend, I think those of us primarily interested in the mainline Denver stations will find that whatever antenna we already have is "good enough"; that's one of the beauties of DTV. I have a nice compact RadioShack U75R in my garage and a CM 4228 outside; given how clearly both of these can pick up KUSA and KMGH analog, I don't anticipate any problems with high VHF next February.

Detailed antenna comparisons will then be primarily of interest to those on the far fringes of the metro area or who need/want to pick up the smaller stations at odd locations.

I get pristine Channel 2 and 4 analog and badly ghosted analog Channels 7 and 9 with an attic mounted generic 5' UHF/VHF combo antenna, without amplification, so I'm not worried once we have full power digital VHF.

However, I still need a hefty pre-amp to get a snow-free analog Channels 20 and 31 signals and strong signals on digital 32 and 34. So, the jury is still out for me on post-transition UHF broadcasts. I'd really like a set-top antenna to work in some places in my house, but I'll have to wait until next February to see if the antenna wars are over for me. Note, I'm only 10 miles from the LOM towers.

Did the two stations returning to VHF next year move their temporary digital transmitters from RP to Lookout? They cannot go digital on VHF while still transmitting analog there.

--- CHAS

They will both be using their transition frequencies when the begin broadcasting from Lookout Mountain on Sunday.

KMGH (NTSC 7) uses UHF 17 for digital transmission during the transition period.

KUSA (NTSC 9) uses UHF 16 for digital transmission during the transition period.

They cannot switch to their VHF frequencies for digital until the end of the transition period which is currently scheduled to occur in February of 2009.

I am curious if anyone knows what authorization they have and/or require for the move from RP to Lookout Mountain. (NEVER MIND-I found out that I got different results depending on which query I used at the FCC)

A query at the FCC website showed an application by KMGH for a 30 KW DS antenna using UHF 17 on the LCG tower located 29 meters below the final one which uses VHF 7, but I have not found anything that indicates that it has been approved. (Oops-Just did a check using a different query and found that the KMGH STA has been approved today.)

The only listing I saw for KUSA using UHF 16 appears to be the Republic Plaza STA.
(Oops #2 - I just checked KUSA again using the other query method and found an approved CP dated 3/24/08 for a UHF 16 facility)

(NEVER MIND-I found out that I got different results depending on which query I used at the FCC)

(Oops-Just did a check using a different query and found that the KMGH STA has been approved today.)

(Oops #2 - I just checked KUSA again using the other query method and found an approved CP dated 3/24/08 for a UHF 16 facility)

Not exactly user friendly, that FCC database. Give that man an A for effort!

Not trying to be too blatant in advertising, but I try to make sense of things on my website (see my signature). I link directly to the important pages for each station as best I can.

The FCC site is a pain to navigate though, I congratulate you on managing it!

- Trip

Will the two UHF stations operating from the tower on their final DTV channel assignments sign on at full power?

--- CHAS

Posted by HIPAR:
Will the two UHF stations operating from the tower on their final DTV channel assignments sign on at full power?
It looks like KTVD will be, but their ERP was reduced from 1 mW to 96 kW due to the FCC freeze on coverage contours. KCNC has an application to operate at 500 kW initially, then power up to 978 kW later. The 978 is also a reduction from 1 mW due to the freeze.

It looks like KUSA (http://www.9news.com/life/programming/shows/mornings/article.aspx?storyid=91465) plans to have the tower signal live soon after midnight.
KUSA - Over-the-air digital television in Denver is about to change but this is not the February 2009 change you're thinking of.

On Saturday night, as soon as Saturday Night Live ends, 9NEWS will turn off the lower power digital operation downtown and begin to turn on the new digital tower on top of Lookout Mountain. This will not affect the analog over-the-air signal.

The switch is expected to take several hours and will interrupt the digital over-the-air signal overnight. Note, if you subscribe to cable or satellite or you receive an analog over-the-air signal, you will not have any programming interruptions as the switch is made.

If you depend on the digital over-the-air signal the good news is that you will now have a much stronger digital signal through your antenna. There is one catch however; you will have to reposition your directional antenna to point toward Lookout Mountain if you have one.

Well, we are getting lots of information about KUSAs plans. I am glad that they are communicating with us. Has anyone heard anything from any of the others in the LCG? I am particularly curious about What KCNC is doing. I searched their web site and came up with no comments about them moving to LM ?? The same thing applies to KMGH ??

Phil


It looks like KUSA (http://www.9news.com/life/programming/shows/mornings/article.aspx?storyid=91465) plans to have the tower signal live soon after midnight.

Posted by HIPAR:

It looks like KTVD will be, but their ERP was reduced from 1 mW to 96 kW due to the FCC freeze on coverage contours. KCNC has an application to operate at 500 kW initially, then power up to 978 kW later. The 978 is also a reduction from 1 mW due to the freeze.

"FCC freeze on coverage contours"? I must have missed something earlier. What is this all about?

"FCC freeze on coverage contours"? I must have missed something earlier. What is this all about?

Stations need to stay within 5-miles of their Appendix B allotment and not cause more than 0.5% new interference to any other station. However, a waiver still needs to be requested for these "increases," otherwise they need to stay within their Appendix B contour.

This is causing problems for many stations that want to re-use their analog non-directional antennas and also for stations that are moving to different facilities.

The problem I see is that the Appendix B and the analog Grade B contours can be very different.

For KTVD, check out the last page of the following:

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/getattachment_exh.cgi?exhibit_id=635555

It appears that KTVD did not elect to request a 5-mile waiver as many stations have done.

Hopefully, relief will be coming in August when the freeze is supposed to be lifted.

KMGH's 2.8kW contour illustrates this point better. Compare the red line with the outer dotted blue one:

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/getattachment_exh.cgi?exhibit_id=635308

[Cross-posted from the Northern Colorado forum]

KDEV-DT, the Retro Television Network affiliate that broadcasts from Horsetooth Mountain southwest of Fort Collins, is pushing out EIT (program schedule) data that appears to be describing an ABC affiliate -- but not KGMH. As the kids say these days: WTF?

Jim McCauley

The ABC affiliation explanation is on Wiki. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KDEV

The ABC affiliation explanation is on Wiki. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KDEV

Wow -- a media soap opera, businesswise.

Interestingly enough, though, the EIT data does mot match the program listings (on Titan TV) for KTWO in Casper, either -- so who knows where the heck it's coming from...


Jim McCauley

Titan TV shows KKTU's programming for ABC in Cheyenne for digital channel 11-1, which is KDEV. I've emailed them several times about this error but they've never fixed it.

Just past Midnight, and my trusty signals from Republic Plaza for KUSA, KTVD, and KMGH just went away for the first time in years. Curiously, KCNC still on-air. Either way, seems like activity has started.

KUSA analog is off the air also. I'm getting a black screen on Dish channel 8202.

Looks like KCNC-DT may be first out of the box, unless they're not moving.

Just playing around with my antenna it seems like their signal may be coming from LM, but I can't tell precisely.

I also noticed that Channel 4 was the only one that didn't run ads saying they were moving…

7:22 am and still no OTA signal from KMGH or KUSA.

Watching 9news on Directv and they have not said anything about the switchover to LOM.

No news is good news????

I am seeing the same signal level on KCNC-DT which must mean that they are still broadcasting from RP.

4-1 still on air this morning with no change in signal for me. I still hope they switch over today since they are my weakest Republic signal.

Still no sign of the other 3 channels that have been off all night.

9news.com mentions the Dish problem on their home page. but, nothing about OTA.

I did a channel scan at 7:30 this morning and got a signal from channel 4. I've never gotten one before from them. Unfortunately, the image was so pixelated that it was unwatchable and there was no sound. I didn't find any mention of the antenna and transmitters on any of the analog news stations morning reports.

8:15 I am getting signals from 7.1 and 9.1 that appear to be coming from lookout. I have a strong signal from 20.1 but no picture or sound.

4.1 is still the same.

I am also getting strong signals from 4-1, 7-1, 9-1, 20-1 but no picture on 20-1. 4-1 is stronger than earlier this morning.

Finally!!!!

As far as I can tell 4-1 is still broadcasting from RP because I don't believe they ever went off the air last night.

There's also not ever been any mention on KCNC's website of the transmitter changeover, or any ads broadcast on KCNC as there were on KMGH and KUSA warning OTA viewers they'd need to repoint.

8:30 a.m., pointed my antenna over to lookout. I am getting an HR10-250 signal strength of 92 across the board for 16, 17, 19, & 35. I never received signal strengths above 83 for 35 (4-1) when pointed at Republic Plaza, so it appears to me that channel 35 is now coming from Lookout I also am getting no picture or sound from channel 19 (20-1). Now that I am pointed at Lookout, I am back to getting channel 38 at a signal strength of 74.

-Don

As of 8:37 AM, KCNC-DT went away so I'm not sure what's going on.

Also, KUSA-DT appears to be having issues or is running at a much lower power, as my signal meters show at least a 25% lower signal for KUSA-DT than for KMGH-DT or KTVD-DT (who I have a strong signal for but no picture - bad PSIP data?)

I re-pointed yesterday. KMGH, KUSA an KTVD a solid 93 on my Sony's meter. KCNC is a 65 which still makes me think its downtown.

20-1 is up to 85% from 65% with no pic or sound
7-1 is up to 86% from 55%
9-1 is down to 47% from 80%
4-1 not sure, and of course this is the only channel I care about

Southwest Fort Collins (Harmony & Shields).
HR20-700, DB8 with Preamp. pointed at LOM.

4-1: 98 to100% on both tuners
7-1: 93 to 100% on both tuners
9-1: 91 to 99% on both tuners
20-1: not acquired on tuner 1, 92 to 100% on Tuner 2, no picture or sound.

Looking great for 4-1, 7-1, and 9-1, all of which I could not receive from RP. I wonder what is up with 20-1?

Southwest Fort Collins (Harmony & Shields).
HR20-700, DB8 with Preamp. pointed at LOM.

4-1: 98 to100% on both tuners
7-1: 93 to 100% on both tuners
9-1: 91 to 99% on both tuners
20-1: not acquired on tuner 1, 92 to 100% on Tuner 2, no picture or sound.

Looking great for 4-1, 7-1, and 9-1, all of which I could not receive from RP. I wonder what is up with 20-1?

I am convinced. Geof can now wear his channel 9 high def T-shirt out there in Buffalo. I did see KUSA drop to the 70s about a half hour ago, but I'm back up at a solid 90-92 for all four stations. AKAIK, the new tower does have directional antennas for the UHF channels, so Phil you might be in a non-sweet spot.

Don

I wish the stations would run a scroll bar message occasionally on the antenna/transmitter status so that I can know when to try to re-aim the antenna, if at all. I'm hoping that they will at least do so when the antenna switch is done today.

I'm getting 4-1 at around 80%, 7-1 and 9-1, 9-2 around 65-70% from Ft. Collins. These were previously undetectable.

RF 19 has a 65%-75% signal, but no lock, probably something in the datastream is amiss.

These are all weaker than 2-1 and 31-1, and even KBDI-DT, but they seem solid enough. This is on an old Echostar 6000 with an 8-VSB module.

So, it looks like with an outdoor antenna, people in Ft. Collins will be able to get the DTV signals from Lookout during the transition period. Unfortunately, KRMA-DT is unwatchable with constant breakups. So, apparently, they will "go dark" for us next February.

I'll give my OnAir GT a try when I get a chance.

Mark in Ft. Collins

For the first time I can recall, I'm receiving:
KCNC and KUSA around 90-92% and KMGH 99-100% signal strength on Dish 622's OTA tuner. No channel 20 yet...

North/North East Ft. Collins; ratshack VU-90 on the roof.

I'd been receiving KWGN (2/34) and KDVR (31/32) for a long time with this antenna at 90+ strengths.

Lookin good so far!

(Update, now I see KTVD in the 92-93 range...)

They must still be working on them. Now I am getting KCNC at a 98 while it was 65 an hour ago. :D
Still no picture and sound on KTVD.

I am getting all 4 stations at 95 - 100 out here in Elizabeth using a CM4228 with a preamp. From RP KCNC took very careful tweaking to get a solid signal, KUSA and KMGH were more tolerant of antenna position but still only gave signal in the 70s

I'm now getting picture/sound on 20-1. Signal strength is only in the high 50s, but no breakups that I've noticed yet.

Mark

All is good in Longmont now:

20-1 80% (has a weird bar on the left side of the 4:3 picture)
9-1 68% signal flopping around a little
7-1 80%
4-1 80%

everything has gotten better except 9-1 which has gotten slightly worse in comparison to RP

I was scared that I wouldn't get a decent signal west of the transmitter here in Genesee, but BAM!! Solid 80-100% on 4,7,9,20 WooHoo! Now, it only KWGN would use their tall tower, I'll be set. With that much signal this direction, I will be able to get rid of my huge Yagi hanging in the garage now.

Thanks LCG!!!

All is good in Longmont now:

20-1 80% (has a weird bar on the left side of the 4:3 picture)


That green bar was on KUSA last night. They must have moved it to KTVD. :D

I am also getting all signals strong with no breakup on my 13" bedroom TV with rabbit ears and convertor box. :)

Wow - All of the LCG stations are coming in great here in Wellington.

The TV I'm currently using only shows 'bars', but all 4 stations are maxed out, and this is with a small RS antenna in the attic - no more need for the CM 4228.

After 7 years of waiting, ( at least for me) I can receive OTA signals normally - welcome to the modern age!

Right now KUSA is showing some decent HD content...

Ken

I get solid signals on all four stations.

Channel/ Signal Strength/Signal Quality
4 (35)/ 100/ 100
7 (17)/ 70-100/ 53-62
9 (16)/ 60-90/ 50-61
20 (19)/ 100/88-100

I have not made any antenna position movement. I'm still pointing mostly toward LM (set my looking at analog picture quality).

Someone should give Deb a call, tell her to put two eggs in her hand, walk outside, face LO Mtn....wait five minutes, go inside and enjoy her hard boiled eggs...

Either that, or start passing out the aluminum foil hats.

Signal strength in HR, using the Samsung's built-in signal strength meter (10 bars):

2-1, 2: 50-60%
4-1: 70%
6-1, 2: 40-50%
7-1: 60%
9-1, 2: 60%
12-1,2,3: 70%
14-1: 70%
20-1: 70%
25-1: 60%
31-1: 60%
50-1: 30%

I'm only using the FM antenna that came with my receiver (24" wire attached to an F-connector). I had a lot of trouble with 4 and 7 before.

Just for fun I moved one TV back to the attic mounted antenna that came with the house. It is good sized but poorly aimed due to its size and attic constuction. 4 gives a good signal, 9 and 20 are watchable but weak, and 7 wont lock. Come February I might be able to get rid of the 4228 completely.

Picnic time!! :D

Congrats LCG!!

Now give three cheers,
I'll lead the way
Hurrah! Hurrah!

Every body:

Hurray! Hurray! Hurray!

--- CHAS

Success from Palmer Divide! My Sony TV locked on to 16, 17, 19 and 35 with signal strength in the mid-70s. CM4228 on the roof. TVFool says it's 55 miles.

Yeah!!!

Finally after years of waiting, I am now able to receive 4.1 (KCNC), 7.1 (KMGH), 9.1 (KUSA), 20.1 (KTVD) with my small Winegard Sensar II roof mounted antenna in Southwest Longmont. There are some random pixelations and jitters, but that's better than nothing.

Now I am waiting to watch my first NBA game in HD on KMGH.

Here in digital death valley along Ralston Creek in Arvada near 68th and Simms, I got my 5' generic combo antenna in the attic pointed as precisely as I could toward the new tower. Still using the CM, 26 dB pre-amp for UHF. Got it all done yesterday afternoon. Checked DTV 4, 7, 9, and 20 when I finished and didn't get a lockable signal on any of them.

BTW, my distance to the RP and LOM broadcast antennas is about the same (less than a mile difference in distance).

Left the XG91 with another CM 26 dB pre-amp still pointed at RP. No lockable signal for DTV 4, 7, 9, and 20 this morning. The move is on!

So now on the LOM antenna I've got a lock on 4, 7, 9, and 20. How good is the signal? Well the results are mixed, but mostly good.

KCNC-DT, Channel 4-1: RP avg. 78; LOM avg. 90, yes 90! Best 4-1 readings ever.

KMGH-DT, Channel 7-1: RP avg. 88; LOM avg. 81, lower power seems to being having an affect.

KUSA-DT, Channel 9-1: RP avg. 88; LOM avg. 74, I'm guessing that their power is too low to handle 9-1 and 9-2. This is very disappointing as a reading in the mid-70s means the signal will be very vulnerable to interference from weather and whatever else in my area seems to occasionally screw-up my signal. More power Mr. Scott!

KTVD-DT, Channel 20-1: RP avg. 88; LOM avg. 84, again lower power seems to be having an affect.

All in all, great to be getting signals from LOM. Hope they get the power up on some of them soon.

BTW, it must be a good day for DTV as I actually have a good lock on KRMA-DT with my LOM antenna and an average signal strength of 79. I also am getting readings on KBDI-DT in the mid to high 80s today.

Just pointed my 'temporary' UHF antenna toward Lookout and lock up on 2-1, 4-1, 7-1, 9-1, 20-1, and 31-1 at above 98% on my HD20-700 from D* (whatever that percentage means). I could get quality picture above about 50% so it looks like I am good to go here. Now pointing at Lookout I also get 6-1 at about 80-85% instead of the old 55-60% when it was pointed toward town so that is better too. Thank the gods they didn't move to Squaw (the best place according to Deb and Al). Even with the antenna pointed a Lookout and west of it I still don't get a sniff from KBDI, so unless they are off the air, I would get nothing from Squaw at my location.

Really happy to see all the reports from Ft. Collins and way down south that people are now getting a good clean signal.:D It sure took long enough, I don't know if I would have had your patience.

Nice to see Ernie didn't lose anything either. After all the work you put in to this, it would have been a true injustice if you had lost your signal with the new tower.:)

It should be fun for the next few weeks to see all the people pop up than can get signal now that have had nothing for years. I guess this just kind of confirms the fact that Lookout is still the best coverage in town. Nice to see Denver finally on board with cutting technology only 3 or 4 years after the rest of the country. :cool:

As for Geof, I would guess he is still SOL at his new location in Buffalo, but I'll bet he still will have a smile on his face when he hears the news.:)

I just had a thought. Since KUSA management doesn't seem to be very concerned about what goes on with KTVD-DT, why don't they move their "weather plus" sub-channel from 9 to 20? That way they wouldn't be able to screw up major network broadcasts.

I just had a thought. Since KUSA management doesn't seem to be very concerned about what goes on with KTVD-DT, why don't they move their "weather plus" sub-channel from 9 to 20? That way they wouldn't be able to screw up major network broadcasts.

There you go, trying to use logic again. How many times do we have to tell you guys there is nothing logical about the way these things are done. How long has 2-2 been off the air, but they still have the billboard???? Logic??? With (S)CARE around, you have got to be kidding.....
:D

I am also now getting 2,4,7,9,20 and 31 from my garage-mounted Radioshack U75R aimed at LOM.

The signal is strong enough that I still get a lock from my RP setup - a deck-mounted CM 4228, which is behind the house on the side away from LOM. But I really don't have any reason to leave it up now. I may go out this afternoon and take that down as a Mother's Day present for the wife.

I'm getting all the locals here in Arvada near Arvada Art Center. I have a old CM UHF/VHF antenna in the attic pointed to LM. The antenna is split to 4 TV's with no amplifier.

I looked in todays mewspaper to see what tey had to say about this "historical" event. I coud't find anything. I guess the Denver Post doesn' care!

I'm located on the east side of Wadsworth and Quincy, on the second floor of a three story condo bldg, with the very top of GM in between me and and LM.

As of this morning, I'm getting a strong and completely watchable signal on 2-1, 4-1, 7-1, 9-1, 20-1 and 31-1 with a pair of generic rabbit ears sitting on the floor! No real signal strength meter on my Samsung, just bars, but everything is working perfectly.

No digital signal at all from channel 6 though.

First post on this forum. I've definitely found a lot of good information on this thread. After seeing the signal strengths reported from Fort Collins and Wellington, I checked my signal in Cheyenne. I thought with a little luck, just maybe I would be able to add HD ABC & NBC to the CBS and Fox that we have here. Doesn't look good. I have a CM 4228 antenna and 7777 pre-amp.

Signal strength from my Sony TV:
4.1: 0
7.1: 35-39 unlock 17.1-17.9: 10-54, rarely locked
9.1: 41 unlock 16.1: 0
19.1-19.9: 65-70, video and audio on 19.3, good with occasional break-up
20.1: 15-35

DirecTV HR-20 and H20 signal strengths are very low as well for 4, 7, 9, and 20.

These channels I do get:
2.1: 67-73, good with occasional break-up
12.1-12.3: 67-73, good
14.1: 62-70, good

Analog 7, 9, and 20 are snowy but watchable, nothing at all on 4.

I was hoping, with a little luck, that the Lookout Mountain move would help me, but it looks like I'll have to hope for more power in the future.

First post on this forum. I've definitely found a lot of good information on this thread. After seeing the signal strengths reported from Fort Collins and Wellington, I checked my signal in Cheyenne. I thought with a little luck, just maybe I would be able to add HD ABC & NBC to the CBS and Fox that we have here. Doesn't look good. I have a CM 4228 antenna and 7777 pre-amp.

Signal strength from my Sony TV:
4.1: 0
7.1: 35-39 unlock 17.1-17.9: 10-54, rarely locked
9.1: 41 unlock 16.1: 0
19.1-19.9: 65-70, video and audio on 19.3, good with occasional break-up
20.1: 15-35

DirecTV HR-20 and H20 signal strengths are very low as well for 4, 7, 9, and 20.

These channels I do get:
2.1: 67-73, good with occasional break-up
12.1-12.3: 67-73, good
14.1: 62-70, good

Analog 7, 9, and 20 are snowy but watchable, nothing at all on 4.

I was hoping, with a little luck, that the Lookout Mountain move would help me, but it looks like I'll have to hope for more power in the future.

You will see more power in the future. 7 and 9 just moved their low power transmitters from RP to Lookout. I would suspect 4 and 20 are using their new transmitters but I highly doubt they are cranked up to full power yet.

Just for fun, I thought I'd try connecting the RF remote antenna (http://www.2000networks.com/accessories/remotes/antenna_DirecTV.html) to the OTA input on my HR20-100 (in the upstairs master). I actually was able to lock on to everything but KMRA. The interesting part was that the signal strengths for KMGH, KUSA, and KTVD were all the same at 35%-40%. And, KCNC was at 65%-70%. Any thoughts on why? Different power level? Or, maybe because KCNC's frequency is higher than the others?

I'm no expert on this stuff, but I noticed when using my Miglia TV Mini HD tuner on my Mac, that KMGH, KUSA, and KTVD all have a frequency around 500 Mhz or lower. Where as KCNC, KWGN, and KDVR all have a frequency around 600 Mhz (KWGN and KDVR also came in at around 65%-70%).

I'm in a "hole" in Loveland. Careful mapping show "line-of-sight" from my rooftop to top of new 730 foot tower, skirt just across high points of the new man-made berm of Highway 287 (bypass north of Berthoud) and a high point of Niwot ridge. I'm quite confident true "line-of-sight" will depend on stations' antenna placement on the 730-foot tower, and height of my own antenna. AntennaWeb.org shows no LCG digital stations receivable at my ranch-style house, <50 miles from the tower. (Clicking 100 yards in any direction shows various LCG stations receivable.) Of course, AntennaWeb isn't perfect. In practice, today, I am receiving about 65% for digital channels 4, 7, and 20, with an older VHF/FM/UHF deep-fringe RS antenna, with CM 7777. Digital channel 9 is receiving perhaps 30%, signal with no lock. Neighbor's Comcast isn't receiving digital Channel 9. Neighbor's Comcast is receiving (mildly) pixelated digital Channel 20. [Both have usually been very good.]

Anybody know if Digital Channel 9 is off-air, running low-power, or back to RP? Anybody know antenna placements of 4/7/9/20 on the new tower? Anybody know location of Comcast antenna and if it's pointed toward RP? Thanks!

Here in SW Longmont I've just got a set of rabbit ears hooked to my Dish ViP-622.

I've always received 2.1 and 31.1 at somewhere between 70-80 on the signal meter. I've never sniffed a hint of the LCG stations.

Now:

4.1 - ~70
7.1 - ~91 (!)
9.1 - ~88
20.1 - ~85

The irony: After KMGH spent so much time broadcasting via a 'coathanger,' I'm finally able to receive their signal using essentially a 'coathanger.'

KMGH-DT is now my strongest OTA signal. I *never* thought I would say that.

kcosby -
KUSA, KMGH, KRMA, and KUSA have their digital signals on RF channels 16,17.18,19.
KDVR, KWGN, and KCNC have their digital signals on RF channels 32, 34, and 35.

I moved late last year from SW Longmont to Erie. My CM 4228 came with me, but due to many reasons (Mis-wiring, missing conduit, business travel, DirecTV, etc. in the new house) was not unboxed and put into service until yesterday.

From old home was only ever able to see 31-1 and 2-1 (Near Airport and Pike).

CM is now located in my attic pointed at LOM, cable to home-run then patched to TV (Panasonic Viera Plasma).

Yesterday did a scan and locked on 2-1, 6-*, 11-1, 12-*, 14-1, 31-1, 40-*, and 51-1. Channel 6-* is at 80%, 11-1 is unwatchable at 33%, and all the rest are 100%.

Today, I now also get the LCG 4-1, 7-1, 9-*, 20-1. Channel 9-* is at 92%, all others are 100%.

BTW, Analog 9 and 7 come in great off this antenna as well. I should be all set!

I am a happy camper!

# Matt

Of all the lousy weekends to have to work all weekend :(

Looking forward to seeing what my paperclip antenna on the bedroom TiVo can pick up when I get home tonight.

Here in Castle Rock, I have reached OTA nirvana after 6 years. Roof mounted CM3021 now recives 4.1, 7.1,9.1, 20.1 in the 80 -90% range on the HR20-100's. I also have the AM21 add-on OTA tuner on a Hr21-700 that receives all LM stations at 100%.

I thought it would be fun to try to hook up the venerable Radio Shack double bow tie UHF antenna in the attic above the bedroom. Presto! 4,7,9,20 all come in at about 60 -70% on the H20-600.

Hard to believe after all these years that we're getting what most "normal" markets have had for some time.

Maybe I should change my screename.....Ihavehd!

P.s. Looks like I received a promotion for my 500th post. Couldn't be for a better topic!

From a few blocks east of Applejack's -- don't pretend you don't know where that is -- I am getting great numbers on the LCG stations, as well at the channel 12-1-2-3 array, 6-1 and of course 31-1 on the HR20-700.

Now, a 19" LCD I recently installed in my wife's bathroom -- I know, I know -- and hooked to a Silver Sensor is receiving all of these, plus a 6-2 signal that the HR200 says is not there.

What's up with that?

Finally, I can get Channel 20-1 and the Rockies game isn't in Hi-Def. Oh well, they're losing

Is KBDI at it's final power/location/antenna configuration? It's the only station left that I would like to receive but don't.

Finally. At last. Halleluiah. I just held a farewell party for my best friend. A Channel Master CM4228 that was mounted on south side of my house pointed to RP building. With it mounted next to wall it pointed right at RP. Served me well for the last couple of years. Switched to a VHF/UHF antenna already pointed at LOM. I put it in the attic 12 years ago.
All the new channels at 100% on a Dish 622.
I am located at 112th & Sheridan Blvd in Westminster.

I have a 7' uhf antenna pointed a lom and get great numbers. I have another tv in my bedroom I want to get local hd. I know I can split the signal from the yagi but i was wodering what the chances are of receiving a signal with rabbit ears (uhf/vhf) antenna? I am north of c-470 at kipling. I don't have one to try.

Thanks,
Jason

kcosby -
KUSA, KMGH, KRMA, and KUSA have their digital signals on RF channels 16,17.18,19.
KDVR, KWGN, and KCNC have their digital signals on RF channels 32, 34, and 35.

Yeah, I understand what the digital channel assignments are. I'm talking about the UHF band video carrier. Given that KUSA, KMGH, and KTVD are very close to each other at 485, 491 and 503 Mhz. respectively, am I getting a better signal with KCNC because it's at 599Mhz, given that all four channels are now broadcasting from LOM, at presumably the same signal strength? Or, are they not broadcasting at the same signal strength? Or, is it something else? Just curious.

So apparently I'm the only one seeing KUSA-DT coming in at a lower signal level than any of the other three LCG stations?

Also, after repointing at LM, I can now receive KRMA-DT, though rather weakly.

From my Sony 32XBR4:

2.1 - 98
4.1 - 87
6.1 - 32
7.1 - 93
9.1 - 60
14.1 - 98
20.1 - 98
31.1 - 93

For reference, I actually did receive KUSA-DT better from RP. :(

I wonder what's up, as everyone else seems to receive KUSA-DT well.

So apparently I'm the only one seeing KUSA-DT coming in at a lower signal level than any of the other three LCG stations?

Also, after repointing at LM, I can now receive KRMA-DT, though rather weakly.

From my Sony 32XBR4:

2.1 - 98
4.1 - 87
6.1 - 32
7.1 - 93
9.1 - 60
14.1 - 98
20.1 - 98
31.1 - 93

For reference, I actually did receive KUSA-DT better from RP. :(

I wonder what's up, as everyone else seems to receive KUSA-DT well.

Notice above ... I get KUSA at 92% ... the lowest of LCG (all others at 100%). I'm in Erie.

Is it a directional thing?

# Matt

So apparently I'm the only one seeing KUSA-DT coming in at a lower signal level than any of the other three LCG stations?

No, you aren't the only one. I'm getting KUSA at a signal level of about 50, while the other stations are around 64-67.

Here is a look at the signal levels that I'm getting:
http://www.bearhunter.com/graph_2008-05-11.jpg

I disconnected my RP antenna at about 2am, and then from 10am-12:30pm I was playing around with the antenna and my amp the first time. But I'm going to try and improve on what I've got. I now have just a large VHF/UHF combo antenna from Radio Shack on a 10-foot mast. I should be getting better signals than I am, so it is going to take some time to adjust the amplifier, now that I think I have my antenna pointed in just the right spot. This is from southern Longmont.

The end of an era. It almost feels wrong to be able to receive all these stations so easily...

Now I'm going to have to find a new hobby.

Finally, after this annoyingly long wait, fantastically great news (unless you're a certain attorney who had her Mothers day ruined, which, for some odd reason :rolleyes:, gives me delight in and of itself). Who would have thunk it would take nearly 9 years to get to this point. If I were still living in the area this would be the first day I'd be able to reliably receive the local HD signals (and I know there were many others in that boat). IIRC, there was speculation that stations would wait until analog shutoff to fire up the Lookout transmitters but thankfully that didn't happen.

Yes, I am smiling but I can't seem to find my KUSA HD T-shirt. ;)

BTW, who won the pool.

Congrats again!

I remember participating in the startup of this thread several years ago and annoying the hell out of my neighbors (SCARE) here in Genesee with demonstrations (Super Bowl) of the HDTV they were missing. Finally at last, Halleluiah, we have got free OTA on rabbit ears. I’m only about a mile from the tower but I can already feel the warmth. My heating bills will be much lower now. I wonder how Deb and Al are surviving. Not much new news on their web site: http://www.c-a-r-e.org/ . You would think that someone would be promoting the emergency deployment of high-grade RF shielding to protect us from the Chernobyl radiation from the tower (Al where are you!).

Thank you LCG.

well I'm seeing some strange results here by Colorado Mills. KUSA used to be my strongest station, with KCNC being so weak that I could never get a lock and KMGH being right about in the middle. Now I'm getting a solid 96-98 on KCNC, around 60 on KMGH, and a peak of 31 on KUSA. The only explanation I can think of for such a weak signal from KUSA is that they're lower on the antenna, and it's low enough that it's being blocked by the hills immediately north-west of I-70. Guess I won't be canceling comcast anytime soon (not that I was planning to).

I don't represent the Chicago OTA board, but I will now. From all of us in the Windy City (and literally very true today with 50 MPH gusts on Mother's Day), we welcome you all into the 20th century. ;) Congratulations...even though some are at half power (or less), it's a big, big boost...and a black day for the "evil empire".

Does anyone know how much power KUSA is doing? They don't have an STA filed for Lookout Mountain as far as I can tell, while all the other stations do...

- Trip

So apparently I'm the only one seeing KUSA-DT coming in at a lower signal level than any of the other three LCG stations?

Also, after repointing at LM, I can now receive KRMA-DT, though rather weakly.

From my Sony 32XBR4:

2.1 - 98
4.1 - 87
6.1 - 32
7.1 - 93
9.1 - 60
14.1 - 98
20.1 - 98
31.1 - 93

For reference, I actually did receive KUSA-DT better from RP. :(

I wonder what's up, as everyone else seems to receive KUSA-DT well.

Nope, your not the only one, 9-1 is 20 pts lower than the other LCG stations. The signal also seem to be bouncing around a lot as well. It ranges from 47- 68 for me.

From Ft. Collins, KUSA-DT does seem to be the weakest (except for KRMA), though KTVD isn't all that strong either. KMGH is a little better, and KCNC is great.

My OnAir GT won't lock on KUSA--it reports "weak signal" and it reports a PSIP timeout. The HP ExpressCard (made by Hauppauge, I think) seems to get it OK. Vista Media center shows both KTVD and KUSA as "yellow" in signal strength with that card, others are all green.

So, it would certainly be nice to get a boost to these marginal signals.

I know people who do use rabbit ears around here for analog reception (though the results are pretty terrible). A much stronger signal than what we have now will be needed for those to work in the DTV age...

Mark

So apparently I'm the only one seeing KUSA-DT coming in at a lower signal level than any of the other three LCG stations

You're not the only one. I see 4, 7, and 20 all at a pretty solid 71 (old HR10-250), but 9 is bouncing all over the place and maxes in the high 50s. KUSA used to be the best of the ones I could get at RP. I never succeeded in getting KCNC, even with a 4228 + CM 7775 and a custom UHF 25 notch filter to keep the preamp from getting headend overload.

Now I'm on my original VHF/UHF antenna that I peaked mostly for VHF - looks like I might have to start playing with the aim.

I finally got to play with my antenna tonight. I turned it (rotor) away from RP and towards LM. Here are my RP pointed (before today for 4, 7, 9, and 20) vs. LM pointed signal strengths on my E* 222 receiver:

Channel RP LM
2-1 65 85
4-1 72 93
6-1 62 76
7-1 93 79
9-1 82 89
12-1 65 91
20-1 82 76
31-1 72 91

My signal strength for 7-1 and 20-1 did drop some, but I'm still receiving a good signal, so that's OK. I did lose KFCT 22-1 and KDEV 11-1 by turning the antenna. I also noticed in my channel surfing tonight that Spanish language 14-1 and 25-1, which I don't watch, had good signal strengths but only showed black screens. I suspect they're having a PSIP problem.

It's nice to hear from our friends and supporters from around the country on this thread today. I don't recollect this many posts in one day since the LM Bill of Rights passed Congress. It's also nice to hear that folks from as far away as Wellington north and the Palmer Divide south can now receive digital OTA.

I don't know if any of you were watching Saturday night, but both 7-1 and 9-1 just turned off their signals 5-10 minutes after midnight. No announcements, nothing. Here one minute, gone the next.

Who says Denver is nothing but an old cow town? ;)

Count me in as another one seeing KUSA at a slightly lower level than before. I'm in Stapleton -- I used to get KUSA in the 90's, and now it's fluctuating between 70's and 80's. KCNC used to be my weakest, registing in the 70's range, and now it's higher than KUSA. But all of the channels are coming in fine overall. I have a little indoor Zenith Silver Sensor antenna.

Received in Fort Collins today:

Digital-------Call---------Mapped------Received
channel-----Sign---------Channel-------Quality

--11------KDEV-DT--------11-1-------Excellent
--15------KTFD-DT--------14-1-------Break-ups
--16------KUSA-DT---------9-1-------Excellent
--16------Weather---------9-2--------Excellent
--17------KMGH-HD--------7-1--------Excellent
--19------KTVD-DT--------20-1-------Excellent
--29------KDEN-DT--------25-1-------Break-ups
--32------KDVR DT--------31-1-------Excellent
--34------KWGN-DT--------2-1-------Excellent
--34------KWGN-DT--------2-2-------Discontinued music service
--35------KCNC-DT---------4-1-------Excellent
--38------KBDI-DT--------12-1-------Generally fine; a few break-ups
--38------KBDI-DC--------12-2-------Generally fine; a few break-ups
--38------KBDI-WV-------12-3-------Generally fine; a few break-ups

On the whole, very satisfactory. Me, I'm gettin' a beer. When's the BBQ?

As expected, though, KRMA remains absent, since it is not on LOM.

Also odd: on the computer-based receiver, which runs MythTV under Linux, I got a carrier on digital channel 21, but could not lock to receive. I think that this is KFCT-DT, which is off-beam of my highly directional antenna.

I also got carriers from digital channels 40 and 46, but no decodable signal.


Jim McCauley

Count me in as another one seeing KUSA at a slightly lower level than before. I'm in Stapleton -- I used to get KUSA in the 90's, and now it's fluctuating between 70's and 80's. KCNC used to be my weakest, registing in the 70's range, and now it's higher than KUSA. But all of the channels are coming in fine overall. I have a little indoor Zenith Silver Sensor antenna.

My Silver Sensor and I are right there with ya. Both KMGH and KUSA are about 10 to 15% weaker signal for me now, which makes sense considering they are still at similar (identical?) power, but 11 miles further away from my location. Although both are still rock solid, I have a feeling come February when they go back to their VHF channels and to full power, they will be reminicent of the old Memorex commercial with the guy setting in front of his Stereo speakers...let's hope!:D

Does anyone know how much power KUSA is doing? They don't have an STA filed for Lookout Mountain as far as I can tell, while all the other stations do...

- Trip
I don't know how much faith anyone should have in my attempts to get information from the FCC databases, but I'll give a try anyway.

I believe that the Lookout Mountain transition transmitter is covered by a Construction Permit.
BMPCDT 20080314ACF E KUSA-TV 23074 DT GRANTED 03/24/2008
Some items from: SECTION III-D - DTV Engineering
Channel Number: DTV 16 Analog TV, if any 9
Antenna Location Coordinates: (NAD 27)
Latitude: Degrees 39 Minutes 43 Seconds 50.6 North
Longitude: Degrees 105 Minutes 13 Seconds 53.6 West
Height of Radiation Center Above Ground Level: 214.3 meters
Height of Radiation Center Above Average Terrain : 374.6 meters
Maximum Effective Radiated Power (average power): 37 kW
(I believe the STA for Republic Plaza was for 10.9 kW)

I believe the other CP is for the final configuration.
BPCDT 20080416ABB E KUSA-TV 23074 DT GRANTED 04/17/2008
Some items from: SECTION III-D - DTV Engineering
Channel Number: DTV 9 Analog TV, if any 9
Antenna Location Coordinates: (NAD 27)
Latitude: Degrees 39 Minutes 43 Seconds 50.6 North
Longitude: Degrees 105 Minutes 13 Seconds 53.6 West
Height of Radiation Center Above Ground Level: 192 meters
Height of Radiation Center Above Average Terrain : 352.4 meters
Maximum Effective Radiated Power (average power): 6 kW

I find it interesting the KUSA transition antenna appears to be higher on the tower than the final one.

Also, I believe the KMGH (Digital 7-1 on UHF 17) Republic Plaza STA was for 6kW and the Lookout Mountain transition STA(BDSTA 20080402ABP E KMGH-TV 40875 DS GRANTED 05/09/2008 ) is for 30 kW. The documentation for them seems to have the final antenna above the transition one.

As I read it, the KTVD (Digital 20-1 on UHF 19) Republic Plaza STA was for 6.47 kW and the Lookout Mountain CP (BMPCDT 20080422ABE E KTVD 68581 DT GRANTED 04/24/2008) is for 96 kW.

The Construction Permit I located for KCNC is:
BMPCDT 20080507ACP E KCNC-TV 47903 DT GRANTED 05/08/2008
Channel Number: DTV 35 Analog TV, if any 4
Height of Radiation Center Above Ground Level: 213 meters
Height of Radiation Center Above Average Terrain : 373 meters
Maximum Effective Radiated Power (average power): 978 kW
(Based on other posts, they may not be at that power level for a while. Their Republic Plaza STA was for 11 kW)

Count me in as another one seeing KUSA at a slightly lower level than before. I'm in Stapleton -- I used to get KUSA in the 90's, and now it's fluctuating between 70's and 80's. KCNC used to be my weakest, registing in the 70's range, and now it's higher than KUSA. But all of the channels are coming in fine overall. I have a little indoor Zenith Silver Sensor antenna.

I'm getting Channel 9 in the 40-50s - but I have a fixed antenna in the attic - I now get Channel 4 - which I have never gotten - and Channel 7 during the day

Heading up to the roof today to install my Winegard PR4400 and Dish 500, will post later. I still can't believe I will be pointing my antenna at Lookout for the first time.

The Lookout Mountain Remediation Program is now in effect. What a class act gesture by LCG. They didn't have to do anything, but they are going to provide this.

http://www.hdtvcolorado.com/interference.php

The Lookout Mountain Remediation Program is now in effect. What a class act gesture by LCG. They didn't have to do anything, but they are going to provide this.

http://www.hdtvcolorado.com/interference.phpDo they fix overheating aluminum foil helmets?

Before I was only able to get CW and Fox OTA. Now I get all of them with a set of amplified rabbit ears. Yay!

So apparently I'm the only one seeing KUSA-DT coming in at a lower signal level than any of the other three LCG stations?

Also, after repointing at LM, I can now receive KRMA-DT, though rather weakly.

From my Sony 32XBR4:

2.1 - 98
4.1 - 87
6.1 - 32
7.1 - 93
9.1 - 60
14.1 - 98
20.1 - 98
31.1 - 93

For reference, I actually did receive KUSA-DT better from RP. :(

I wonder what's up, as everyone else seems to receive KUSA-DT well.

See my earlier posts with signal strength readings before and after (RP and LOM respectively). KUSA is definitely at lower power than the others or is really low on the new tower compared to the others.

The Lookout Mountain Remediation Program is now in effect. What a class act gesture by LCG. They didn't have to do anything, but they are going to provide this.

http://www.hdtvcolorado.com/interference.php

Nice of them, but they are sure asking for it. Between all the technically illiterate that will blame everything from garage door opener malfunctions to their dog running away on the tower to all the sCARE fanatics that will flood them with complaints just to legitimize their cult, this will be one busy Expert.

I don't know how much faith anyone should have in my attempts to get information from the FCC databases, but I'll give a try anyway.

I believe that the Lookout Mountain transition transmitter is covered by a Construction Permit.
BMPCDT 20080314ACF E KUSA-TV 23074 DT GRANTED 03/24/2008
Some items from: SECTION III-D - DTV Engineering
Channel Number: DTV 16 Analog TV, if any 9
Antenna Location Coordinates: (NAD 27)
Latitude: Degrees 39 Minutes 43 Seconds 50.6 North
Longitude: Degrees 105 Minutes 13 Seconds 53.6 West
Height of Radiation Center Above Ground Level: 214.3 meters
Height of Radiation Center Above Average Terrain : 374.6 meters
Maximum Effective Radiated Power (average power): 37 kW
(I believe the STA for Republic Plaza was for 10.9 kW)

I believe the other CP is for the final configuration.
BPCDT 20080416ABB E KUSA-TV 23074 DT GRANTED 04/17/2008
Some items from: SECTION III-D - DTV Engineering
Channel Number: DTV 9 Analog TV, if any 9
Antenna Location Coordinates: (NAD 27)
Latitude: Degrees 39 Minutes 43 Seconds 50.6 North
Longitude: Degrees 105 Minutes 13 Seconds 53.6 West
Height of Radiation Center Above Ground Level: 192 meters
Height of Radiation Center Above Average Terrain : 352.4 meters
Maximum Effective Radiated Power (average power): 6 kW

I find it interesting the KUSA transition antenna appears to be higher on the tower than the final one.

Also, I believe the KMGH (Digital 7-1 on UHF 17) Republic Plaza STA was for 6kW and the Lookout Mountain transition STA(BDSTA 20080402ABP E KMGH-TV 40875 DS GRANTED 05/09/2008 ) is for 30 kW. The documentation for them seems to have the final antenna above the transition one.

As I read it, the KTVD (Digital 20-1 on UHF 19) Republic Plaza STA was for 6.47 kW and the Lookout Mountain CP (BMPCDT 20080422ABE E KTVD 68581 DT GRANTED 04/24/2008) is for 96 kW.

The Construction Permit I located for KCNC is:
BMPCDT 20080507ACP E KCNC-TV 47903 DT GRANTED 05/08/2008
Channel Number: DTV 35 Analog TV, if any 4
Height of Radiation Center Above Ground Level: 213 meters
Height of Radiation Center Above Average Terrain : 373 meters
Maximum Effective Radiated Power (average power): 978 kW
(Based on other posts, they may not be at that power level for a while. Their Republic Plaza STA was for 11 kW)

I believe that what these records reflect is that KUSA-DT is currently at 6 kW and 352 meters and will be at 37 kW and 375 meters after the FCC removes the freeze. Thus, KUSA is low on the new tower and about 45% less power than they were at RP. This explains the lower KUSA readings many, including me, are getting. More power Mr. Scott!

Between all the technically illiterate that will blame everything from garage door opener malfunctions to their dog running away on the tower to all the sCARE fanatics that will flood them with complaints just to legitimize their cult, this will be one busy Expert.

But from a marketing and image-building standpoint, it's a good thing. Every complaint received gives them a point of contact in the offended community. That's an opportunity either to do something useful (and thus make a friend) or at least to offer positive advice and perhaps disarm a current or potential enemy.

The foil-hatters will never come into the fold, of course, but any effort to reach out to fence-sitters in the Golden area is a plus from the standpoint of community relations. The Mount Sutro Tower owners in San Francisco failed to do this in 1973, and it took them twenty years to build up anything like community support for that facility.


Jim McCauley

The Lookout Mountain Remediation Program is now in effect. What a class act gesture by LCG. They didn't have to do anything, but they are going to provide this.

http://www.hdtvcolorado.com/interference.php

Actually, all stations, radio and/or TV, are required to do this for a period of one year after a new facility goes on line. LCG is just being more public about it than most stations do.

Doing my best Kreskin, I predict that News4 will make a significant jump in the ratings during this May sweep. Basis: Now all HD news; easy to get, high power signal for OTA DTV; and Karen Leigh. We'll find out in early June if Kreskin got this one right.

KUSA does not have their current channel 16 transmitter listed in the FCC database. The 10.9 kW signal is the Republic transmitter, and the 6 kW signal is their future signal on channel 9. I should hope they file soon.

If it was in the FCC database, I'd have found it by now. ;)

- Trip

Perhaps KUSA moved their RP transmitter to LM. That would account for many of the lower signal strength reports since it would be the same ERP but farther away for some on LM.

Trip, I'm wondering if you could shed some light on why the FCC bothered to make stations such as KUSA file for a lower power (6 kW) than their previously authorized power (37 kW) for channel 9 under the service contour freeze (until August 2008) since KUSA is on channel 16 and flash cutting to channel 9 in February 2009 and will not be on channel 9 for digital transmission anytime prior to cutoff. I realize that stations have to apply to increase coverage contours after August 2008 but that seems almost like an automatic process, especially for stations out west, where, in KUSA's case, there won't be a digital station on channel 9 for hundreds of miles. As a result, the freeze really doesn't affect stations such as KUSA. The same holds true here for KMGH. Or am I missing something here?

Finally, after this annoyingly long wait, fantastically great news (unless you're a certain attorney who had her Mothers day ruined, which, for some odd reason :rolleyes:, gives me delight in and of itself). Who would have thunk it would take nearly 9 years to get to this point. If I were still living in the area this would be the first day I'd be able to reliably receive the local HD signals (and I know there were many others in that boat). IIRC, there was speculation that stations would wait until analog shutoff to fire up the Lookout transmitters but thankfully that didn't happen.

Yes, I am smiling but I can't seem to find my KUSA HD T-shirt. ;)

BTW, who won the pool.

Congrats again!

Welcome back to the thread. As a member of the 'founding fathers' club, and major 'worker bee', it seems a shame you weren't here to enjoy the fruits of the labors of some of the early members of the thread. Yes it is truly a glorious weekend in Colorado as we finally catch up the where the rest of the to 20 markets in the country have been for 4 or 5 years.

You might just try a rescan with your receiver in Buffalo to see if you can get a signal for old times sake. As much power as Deb claims is coming from the tower you should at least be able to warm a breakfast muffin out there with a little atmosphere skip.

BTW, how is the OTA situation in Buffalo or do you even use OTA there? Seems like you were talking FIOS when you moved. Hopefully Buffalo didn't have this much trouble getting their signals on the air.
We will be sure to set a honorary vacant plate on the table at the barbecue at the new tower.
:cool:

I guess Channel 7 is having trouble with LM location. They shoed "Good Morning America" in SD this morning. At least the lasat half hour was in SD.

Rabbit ears and full signal near Arapahoe Road and Broadway, Centennial. Too cool!

BTW, I watch old TVs too!:D

Tim

I guess Channel 7 is having trouble with LM location. They shoed "Good Morning America" in SD this morning. At least the lasat half hour was in SD.

I doubt is has anything to do with Lookout, given they showed all ABC programming just fine last night.

Rather they seem to show GMA in SD a lot; I'm not sure if it's satellite/record issues or if someone just forgets to flip the HD switch.


On the subject of signal strength, I received the following from KUSA this morning:

Yesterday when we powered up I got a report from a Government engineer in Arvada who saw considerable signal strength increase on KUSA.

KCNC is operating at full power, KUSA is at reduced power. KMGH is at reduced power and KTVD is at reduced power and reduced contour. All should be up at full power in Feb.

The transmitter that we are using for KUSA at Look Out is the same one we used at Republic Plaza. We simply moved it from Republic Plaza to the new location.

Funny thing is, Lookout is closer to me than RP is. Oh well.

The interference reports do serve a useful purpose in identifying spurious emissions from the facility. Of course LCG must resolve these kinds of problems. But unlicensed devices, such a garage door openers and cordless phones operate under Part 15 of the FCC rules and thus must be engineered to coexist with other legally operating services.

--- CHAS

Attic antenna at C-470 and Quebec. I get a perfect 100 reading on my Dish receivers for channels 2, 4, 7, 9, 12, 20 and 31. I get around 80 for channel 6. A nice feeling to be done worrying about signal strength.

Perhaps KUSA moved their RP transmitter to LM. That would account for many of the lower signal strength reports since it would be the same ERP but farther away for some on LM.

Trip, I'm wondering if you could shed some light on why the FCC bothered to make stations such as KUSA file for a lower power (6 kW) than their previously authorized power (37 kW) for channel 9 under the service contour freeze (until August 2008) since KUSA is on channel 16 and flash cutting to channel 9 in February 2009 and will not be on channel 9 for digital transmission anytime prior to cutoff. I realize that stations have to apply to increase coverage contours after August 2008 but that seems almost like an automatic process, especially for stations out west, where, in KUSA's case, there won't be a digital station on channel 9 for hundreds of miles. As a result, the freeze really doesn't affect stations such as KUSA. The same holds true here for KMGH. Or am I missing something here?

Yeah, it's mainly for the more congested areas. The FCC was trying to get everyone sorted out and so they only allowed stations to replicate their current licensed facilities (in most cases) and wouldn't allow expansions of more than 5 miles.

Once August gets here, it's a free-for-all, anyone can apply to "maximize" which I imagine is what all the Lookout stations will do. KTVD will be the first, I suspect, going from 96 kW or whatever they're doing now to 1000 kW or whatever they end up doing in the end.

So yeah, you'd think they'd keep the stuff in the regions that need it, but they've applied their rules everywhere evenly.

- Trip

I seeemed to have developed a technical problem since re-pointing my antenna toward LOM. My antenna has a CM 7775 UHF pre-amp attached on the mast at the antenna. The cable comes into the house after about 40 feet and splits (5 -1000 splitter). There is a 8-10 foot length that goes to Family room HR20-100 which has a DC block at the splitter. The other line goes an additional 45 feet to HT in basement where the power source for the pre-amp is located. The Family room is getting a strong signal in the 80's but I am getting pixelization and break-ups. The HT in the basement is not exhibiting these symptoms at all.
Is it likely that the pre-amp is causing this problem for the Family room only? Would the improved signal strength from LOM create this problem with the pre-amp?
Looking for input before I venture on to the roof again. TIA.

Perhaps KUSA moved their RP transmitter to LM. That would account for many of the lower signal strength reports since it would be the same ERP but farther away for some on LM.

Trip, I'm wondering if you could shed some light on why the FCC bothered to make stations such as KUSA file for a lower power (6 kW) than their previously authorized power (37 kW) for channel 9 under the service contour freeze (until August 2008) since KUSA is on channel 16 and flash cutting to channel 9 in February 2009 and will not be on channel 9 for digital transmission anytime prior to cutoff. I realize that stations have to apply to increase coverage contours after August 2008 but that seems almost like an automatic process, especially for stations out west, where, in KUSA's case, there won't be a digital station on channel 9 for hundreds of miles. As a result, the freeze really doesn't affect stations such as KUSA. The same holds true here for KMGH. Or am I missing something here?

I am curious what documents you have seen that say that KUSA was required to reduce power from 37kW to 6kW. The documents I found seem to say they are authorized 37kW on channel 16. The 6kW limit seems to be for channel 9 when they make the switch in February 2009. I quoted just the relevant KUSA stuff belowfrom my previous post.

I don't know how much faith anyone should have in my attempts to get information from the FCC databases, but I'll give a try anyway.

I believe that the Lookout Mountain transition transmitter is covered by a Construction Permit.
BMPCDT 20080314ACF E KUSA-TV 23074 DT GRANTED 03/24/2008
Some items from: SECTION III-D - DTV Engineering
Channel Number: DTV 16 Analog TV, if any 9
Antenna Location Coordinates: (NAD 27)
Latitude: Degrees 39 Minutes 43 Seconds 50.6 North
Longitude: Degrees 105 Minutes 13 Seconds 53.6 West
Maximum Effective Radiated Power (average power): 37 kW
(I believe the STA for Republic Plaza was for 10.9 kW)

I believe the other CP is for the final configuration.
BPCDT 20080416ABB E KUSA-TV 23074 DT GRANTED 04/17/2008
Some items from: SECTION III-D - DTV Engineering
Channel Number: DTV 9 Analog TV, if any 9
Antenna Location Coordinates: (NAD 27)
Latitude: Degrees 39 Minutes 43 Seconds 50.6 North
Longitude: Degrees 105 Minutes 13 Seconds 53.6 West
Maximum Effective Radiated Power (average power): 6 kW


Based on the post from kucharsk, KUSA did move the Republic Plaza transmitter and may be operating below 37 kW, but I have not found anything in the KUSA documents at the FCC website that requies them to be below 37kW on the temporary frequency. Am I missing something or reading something incorrectly or are you addressing an issue that does not apply until KUSA swithes to channel 9 for digital transmission?

Welcome back to the thread. As a member of the 'founding fathers' club, and major 'worker bee', it seems a shame you weren't here to enjoy the fruits of the labors of some of the early members of the thread. Yes it is truly a glorious weekend in Colorado as we finally catch up the where the rest of the to 20 markets in the country have been for 4 or 5 years.

You might just try a rescan with your receiver in Buffalo to see if you can get a signal for old times sake. As much power as Deb claims is coming from the tower you should at least be able to warm a breakfast muffin out there with a little atmosphere skip.

BTW, how is the OTA situation in Buffalo or do you even use OTA there? Seems like you were talking FIOS when you moved. Hopefully Buffalo didn't have this much trouble getting their signals on the air.
We will be sure to set a honorary vacant plate on the table at the barbecue at the new tower.
:cool:Buffalo HD was going when I moved into the house and hooked up my antennas. Unfortunately some station antenna's are due North of me while others are almost due East. Fortunately I was able to install two antennas and combine them into one feed. No FIOS TV here yet but I've had FIOS internet for over a year (FIOS 1.2MB/sec downloads make up for my 28.8K connection in Colorado ;) ). FIOS TV is supposed to be available later this year though. I'm still subscribing to DirecTV but I don't use them for locals. I do get a reliable signal from Toronto but I somehow don't think I'd stand much of a chance getting anything from Lookout (when the Bronco's start playing better I might have to give it a shot though. :):)

Obviously the situation in Denver was ridiculous right from the get go and all SCARE really accomplished was to piss most of us off while running up the costs for LCG, JeffCo, and their own benefactors. The only true "Lookout Remediation Plan" would involve sending Deb and Al into hiding in a Texas jailhouse but just knowing they lost puts a smile on my face.

I'm just wondering what's different about UHF 16 such that some of us are seeing reduced strength from KUSA-DT on Lookout as compared to them on RP.

Given the number of folks east and southeast who are reporting KUSA as being one of their stronger signals, I'm also wondering if their new transmission antenna is more directional than the one they had atop RP, or at least is aimed more at Highlands Ranch. :confused:

So KUSA is using the same transmitter at LOM as they did at RP. I rechecked and the LOM antenna is a mile closer than was the RP antenna (8.3 versus 9.3) and pointed at RP I was basically receiving bounced signals because they had to clear a ridgeline about a mile and an half from me.

Therefore the only thing I can figure, other than the difference in my antennas (same type and level of pre-amp though) is the location and direction of the KUSA broadcast antenna on the tower.

The Winegard MS-2000 Metrostar I have been using for our bedroom HDTV (Samsung LNT3253H; 6-months old) doesn't like the LOM transmissions. Rather than mess around with it, I jumped the gun and hooked up the new coax feed from the attic antenna (wire all over the place; will need to get busy running it through the walls tomorrow or there will be hell to pay with my better half). I split off that run while I was fixing up my UHF/VHF combo antenna for LOM Saturday. I installed a splitter and made a coax run through the wall to our bedroom.

Anyway, I looked at all the DTV channels received on it as a better check of signal strength. This HDTV has the newest generation ATSC tuner that I own and uses a signal strength of 0 to 10 bars.

2-1: 9 bars
4-1: 10
6-1: 7
7-1: 8
9-1: 6
12-1: 10
14-1: 10
20-1: 7-1/2
31.1: 9

I hope KUSA takes a look at their current LOM setup as it seems it is less than optimum for many of us who didn't have much problem receiving KUSA-DT from RP.

Anyone have an email address for KUSA engineering so we can pass along the not so great changes that some of us are seeing?

CEB II - go here (http://www.9news.com/company/contact/default.aspx) and pick the person you want to email.

KUSA is not one of my stronger signals in HR.

Given the number of folks east and southeast who are reporting KUSA as being one of their stronger signals, I'm also wondering if their new transmission antenna is more directional than the one they had atop RP, or at least is aimed more at Highlands Ranch. :confused:

That's it! Wealthier demographic going towards Highlands Ranch. With limited ERP got to work those target market segments to the max.

No offense gakon. Hope none taken.

I too am very happy to get the new tower stations -- a quick scan and they are all looking good out here near Ft. Lupton/Hudson area.

BTW, I noticed that 11-1 is breaking up badly. I don't watch it much but it all ways came in pretty strong. My antenna points toward LOM but I used to get it pretty strong anyway.

Any ideas?

I believe that what these records reflect is that KUSA-DT is currently at 6 kW and 352 meters and will be at 37 kW and 375 meters after the FCC removes the freeze. Thus, KUSA is low on the new tower and about 45% less power than they were at RP. This explains the lower KUSA readings many, including me, are getting. More power Mr. Scott!

If you look closely at the records I posted you should notice that they are 2 different Construction Permits.
One is for broadcast on channel 16 and is for 37 kW. I believe that this is the document used to authorize the transition facility currently active on Lookout Mountain.
The other is for broadcast on channel 9 at 6 kW. This would seem to be for the post-transition facility, and would not seem to have anything to do with the current situation.

I do not have equipment to get precise signal strength readings, but when I first noticed KUSA on the air at about 9:30AM on Sunday, my TV was showing full signal strength. It now bounces between 3/4 and full strength. I wonder if they were initially at higher power and dropped it down. Now that we have heard that they are using, at least parts of, the RP transmitter, I wonder if it was not able to sustain the authorized power level. It may have been overheating, or had some other problem. Obviously, this is just a WAG.

Why does the FCC do this?

For some reason, they archived the new signal up on the mountain. So now I've manually fixed it on my own site, though I don't know what's with the FCC site.

- Trip

Yes, the 6 KW will be on channel 9 after the analog shutdown. But read this approved construction permit from March of 2008 to move the transmitter from RP to Lookout, and you'll see that they are at 37 kw, assuming the transmitter is working nominally:

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/getattachment_exh.cgi?exhibit_id=625476

Which would explain why some people are having trouble getting it. 37 kw that high up is OK, but it doesn't penetrate buildings well, that's for sure.

What is scary is that 6 kw on channel 9 after analog shutdown. That offers little building (aka attic) penetration out more than 10-15 miles.

No way that KUSA-DT is currently broadcasting at 37 kW. KBDI-DT is broadcasting at 42 kW from roughly the same elevation and 13.4 miles further away and 23 degrees off my pointing azimuth to LOM, and they are blowing the top off of my signal meters. Unless it is a pointing issue on KUSA's part.

I've sent them an inquiry. I post what, if anything, I find out.

kenavs, I did make a small error in my previous post. The 37 kW I referred to should have been 39.7 kW. That's what happens when you try to recollect something instead of looking it up. This reduction from 39.7 kW to 6 kW is due to the service contour freeze mentioned in several posts by several others. Once the freeze is lifted in August, I'm sure that KUSA, along with KTVD and KMGH, will apply for extended coverage (increased ERP) that was initially authorized in the Final Assignment of DTV, File FCC-07-138A2.xls, which I believe was issued on 12-31-07. KCNC didn't get hit by this freeze nearly as badly as their ERP was only reduced to 978 kW from 1000 kW, probably due to the much higher frequency they are on - channel 34.

I think some of the database info on the FCC site changes almost daily, with "old" stuff archived, as Trip pointed out. Currently, KUSA's database info shows it will be on channel 9 with 6 kW at analog shutdown and on channel 16 with 10.9 kW until then. I believe (I didn't look it up!) that the 10.9 kW is the same power they had authorized on RP.

Yes, the 6 KW will be on channel 9 after the analog shutdown. But read this approved construction permit from March of 2008 to move the transmitter from RP to Lookout, and you'll see that they are at 37 kw, assuming the transmitter is working nominally:

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/getattachment_exh.cgi?exhibit_id=625476

Which would explain why some people are having trouble getting it. 37 kw that high up is OK, but it doesn't penetrate buildings well, that's for sure.

What is scary is that 6 kw on channel 9 after analog shutdown. That offers little building (aka attic) penetration out more than 10-15 miles.

I'm confused by that 6 kw after shutdown figure as well.

Could it be that a 6 kw VHF signal has better propagation than a 37 kw UHF signal?

Otherwise it would be a net loss in coverage for them.

I hope KUSA takes a look at their current LOM setup as it seems it is less than optimum for many of us who didn't have much problem receiving KUSA-DT from RP.

Anyone have an email address for KUSA engineering so we can pass along the not so great changes that some of us are seeing?

I had a chat with someone at KUSA engineering today and they're convinced that those of us with issues must just be in antenna nulls, especially as lots of people have reported here and to them that the signal is just blasting in now.

Personally I think there's something else going on as all the signals from RP used to be more or less equivalent signal wise, but their engineering department pretty much had the attitude that as long as you're getting over 15dB S/N, you're fine and things are going to change again in February anyway.

The 9News website gives the email for their director of engineering as ken.highberger@9news.com, so perhaps someone could pose the 6 kW question as well.

The 10.9 kW is the RP signal. The 37 kW signal up on Lookout is archived for some unknown reason.

The 6 kW figure for channel 9 is very likely temporary. I fully expect to see an application by the end of August for something larger than that.

- Trip

The 6 kW figure for channel 9 is very likely temporary. I fully expect to see an application by the end of August for something larger than that.

I'm expecting to see a few hundred (or more) stations filing for expansions in August. The current maximum 5-mile contour "expansion" relates to the Appendix B allotment and not the existing analog service area.

Hopefully, these reduced ERP CP filings won't ever see the light of day in most cases. I expect that so many are appearing now so that the Post-Transition facilities can be constructed now. Then they can just file another CP for higher power later.

The 5-mile limit applies to all directions, even if they are in the mountains where the signals probably don't even exist (or over the ocean for other parts of the country).

Just as a point of reference, I am close to Hampden and Sheridan in the bottom of Bear Valley. Checking the signal strength on an ATI HD Wonder PC card from my RS VU 60 (I think, it is about a five foot long VHF?UHF antenna) mounted on a 10 foot piece of pipe above the roof ridge on my two storry house. It is still poinintg at RP (I hope to fix that next weekend). As the antenna is pointed now, from here, LOM is just about dead off the side of the antenna.

2-1 66%
4-1 74%
6-1 00%
7-1 88%
9-1 88%
20-1 91%
31-1 88%

I hope when I move the antenna to point at LOM, I might get something on 6-1. Anyway, KUSA seems to be doing lots better here than before. IIRC I was getting around 68% from them before the move.

Phil

Evergreen HD signal report:

The switch happened while I was out of town, so today I took the opportunity to head out to the RV, raised up the Wineguard batwing and fired up the Samsung HD set. For the first time, I can get 4-1, 9-1 and 20-1, and I'm located behind Evergreen Mountain. with NO line of sight to LOM. I could get a small taste of 7-1, but it constantly dropped. This same test two weeks ago yielded no signals from those stations. I might actually get an antenna for the Dish 622!

Well I'm getting 99% on 2, 4, 7, 9, the three 12's, 20 and 31, and 85% on 6 with only a "rough" aiming of my PR4400. I'm liking this. :)

Have not yet set up my 622, will do that Tuesday. Still unpacking from the move.

BTW I have LOS and am 14.6 miles from the tower according to Google Earth.

Can someone fill me in on why I am getting 11 channels (40.1-40.11) with no picture or sound on my Dish 811?

Sounds like KRMT is broadcasting a bunch of empty subchannels. I'd have to see the stream to know for sure.

Is there someone in the market with a computer-based tuner who would be willing to grab some output with TSReader for me? PM me (or e-mail, or IM, whatever) and I'll give you details if you don't know how or what info I need. Thanks. =)

- Trip

I can tell you right now all but the last channel are empty. When they first started broadcasting in digital they actually had it right with ONE channel. Then a few weeks later someone thought it would be cool to irritate the hell out of everyone who can get a whiff of their signal by turning on 16 blank subchannels. 2+ years and several complaints later those subchannels are still on...

I had a chat with someone at KUSA engineering today and they're convinced that those of us with issues must just be in antenna nulls, especially as lots of people have reported here and to them that the signal is just blasting in now.

Personally I think there's something else going on as all the signals from RP used to be more or less equivalent signal wise, but their engineering department pretty much had the attitude that as long as you're getting over 15dB S/N, you're fine and things are going to change again in February anyway.

The 9News website gives the email for their director of engineering as ken.highberger@9news.com, so perhaps someone could pose the 6 kW question as well.

I exchanged a couple of emails with Ken this evening. I got the usual "you probably don't know anything" initial response. Then when you talk like a EE (which I am) he gets more quiet. I'm borrowing a friend's spectrum analyzer in the next few days so I can get a good look at what the heck is going on and why their signal has soo much variability - KMGH at 17 is right next to them and rock-solid stable on all of my ATSC tuners. KUSA on 16 bounces up and down +/-5 to +/-15 depending on which tuner I use.

That's it! Wealthier demographic going towards Highlands Ranch. With limited ERP got to work those target market segments to the max.

No offense gakon. Hope none taken.

None taken. You're probably right about the demographic, but this market segment is probably skewed so far towards the cable/satellite world that KUSA would be wasting effort trying to improve OTA reception here. We may just be the beneficiaries as they try to reach more southern areas of Douglas Co.

As I stated, KUSA is not one of my stronger stations. Although I don't recall checking signal strength against the other LCG stations before the move, I do remember that it was the best of the four (just based on the number/frequency of breakups), and now it's the worst (based on the signal strength meter in the TV) so the others definitely improved more than KUSA - for me.

kenavs, I did make a small error in my previous post. The 37 kW I referred to should have been 39.7 kW. That's what happens when you try to recollect something instead of looking it up. This reduction from 39.7 kW to 6 kW is due to the service contour freeze mentioned in several posts by several others. Once the freeze is lifted in August, I'm sure that KUSA, along with KTVD and KMGH, will apply for extended coverage (increased ERP) that was initially authorized in the Final Assignment of DTV, File FCC-07-138A2.xls, which I believe was issued on 12-31-07. KCNC didn't get hit by this freeze nearly as badly as their ERP was only reduced to 978 kW from 1000 kW, probably due to the much higher frequency they are on - channel 34.

I think some of the database info on the FCC site changes almost daily, with "old" stuff archived, as Trip pointed out. Currently, KUSA's database info shows it will be on channel 9 with 6 kW at analog shutdown and on channel 16 with 10.9 kW until then. I believe (I didn't look it up!) that the 10.9 kW is the same power they had authorized on RP.


I just did a search for KUSA-TV at: http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/cdbs/pubacc/prod/app_sear.htm

The second document listed was:
BMPCDT 20080314ACF E KUSA-TV 23074 DT GRANTED 03/24/2008
It is an FCC 301 APPLICATION FOR CONSTRUCTION PERMIT FOR COMMERCIAL BROADCAST STATION. This appears to be a construction permit for the Lookout Mountain transition facility. SECTION III-D - DTV Engineering includes the following:
Channel Number: DTV 16 Analog TV, if any 9
Antenna Location Coordinates: (NAD 27)
Latitude: Degrees 39 Minutes 43 Seconds 50.6 North
Longitude: Degrees 105 Minutes 13 Seconds 53.6 West
Maximum Effective Radiated Power (average power): 37 kW

This seems to be the permit referenced in the KUSA FCC 387 DTV TRANSITION STATUS REPORT: BDTRCT 20080215AJQ E KUSA-TV 23074 TV ACCEPTED FOR FILING 02/19/2008

The Transition Plan contains the following paragraph:
The Commission is well-aware of the difficulties and lengthy delays associated with construction of the Lookout Mountain tower. After years of litigation, construction of the new tower is expected to be completed by the end of April 2008. Coordination with the other Lake Cedar Group stations has been on-going throughout the construction. On or about April 13, 2008, KUSA intends to terminate its STA operations at Republic Plaza and commence operations on its pre-transition digital channel 16 at Lookout Mountain. KUSA plans to continue operating at Lookout Mountain, at reduced power, through February 17, 2009. To that end, KUSA will file imminently an application on Form 301 to modify its channel 16 CP (BMPCDT- 20000501ADN) seeking a reduction in the authorized power (1000 kilowatts). KUSA will license those facilities upon completion of the move, pursuant to paragraph 46 of the Order.

I have read and re-read the digital applications to the FCC for the local stations more times than I want to admit. I've also found that FCC actions are not always posted immediately, so if there's any update to KUSA's 37 kW or 10.9 kW, or whatever kW it really is, it may post in the next few days. One thing seems evident - the FCC database shows the LM 37 kW operation as granted on the Applications page but the TV Query Results page does not reflect an STA for 37 kW - an inconsistency. Then again, if they received approval for 37 kW, they may not have fired up to that max. If they're using the old 10.9 kW transmitter, maybe they believed they could crank it up to 37 kW and have now found out they can't. The 3-24-08 filing, Exhibit 43, does describe a new antenna, so they must have abandoned the one on RP, which may account for some of the differences in reception due to directional patterns.

KUSA was rock solid for me Sunday and thru the noon news on Monday. Monday prime time, it broke up and the signal strength fluctuated wildly to the point where my better half had to change to E*'s HD feed to watch The Gladiators (I watched hockey!). It was better during Leno, but it still wasn't stable. Is it the weather, or is there some fine tuning going on? I guess we need to give the stations some slack for a few days to allow them to explore the nooks and crannies.

I have read and re-read the digital applications to the FCC for the local stations more times than I want to admit. I've also found that FCC actions are not always posted immediately, so if there's any update to KUSA's 37 kW or 10.9 kW, or whatever kW it really is, it may post in the next few days. One thing seems evident - the FCC database shows the LM 37 kW operation as granted on the Applications page but the TV Query Results page does not reflect an STA for 37 kW - an inconsistency. Then again, if they received approval for 37 kW, they may not have fired up to that max. If they're using the old 10.9 kW transmitter, maybe they believed they could crank it up to 37 kW and have now found out they can't. The 3-24-08 filing, Exhibit 43, does describe a new antenna, so they must have abandoned the one on RP, which may account for some of the differences in reception due to directional patterns.

KUSA was rock solid for me Sunday and thru the noon news on Monday. Monday prime time, it broke up and the signal strength fluctuated wildly to the point where my better half had to change to E*'s HD feed to watch The Gladiators (I watched hockey!). It was better during Leno, but it still wasn't stable. Is it the weather, or is there some fine tuning going on? I guess we need to give the stations some slack for a few days to allow them to explore the nooks and crannies.
One of my TVs gives me a crude indication of signal strength. I just checked, and KUSA looked just like it did before the move to LM. That still gives me a solid picture and sound.
I posted a similar theory that they may not have been able to get the RP transmitter to drive the new antenna at their authorized power level.
Hopefully, KUSA will soon provide an honest answer what is going on.

...KUSA on 16 bounces up and down +/-5 to +/-15 depending on which tuner I use.I am a few blocks SE of Quincy and Chambers. After re-aiming my CM4228 from 298° to 277° magnetic, I am seeing solid 100% on everything except KRMA (40%-50%) and KUSA. Although KUSA is averaging in the 90s, I see the same thing you are describing - The signal strength bounces from 88% to 100% on one tuner and 85% to 96% on the other. As a reference, it did NOT do that when they were transmitting from RP.

I had a chat with someone at KUSA engineering today and they're convinced that those of us with issues must just be in antenna nulls, especially as lots of people have reported here and to them that the signal is just blasting in now.

Personally I think there's something else going on as all the signals from RP used to be more or less equivalent signal wise, but their engineering department pretty much had the attitude that as long as you're getting over 15dB S/N, you're fine and things are going to change again in February anyway.

The 9News website gives the email for their director of engineering as ken.highberger@9news.com, so perhaps someone could pose the 6 kW question as well.

My first response from Ken Highberger blew off my concerns and pointed out my pre-amp as the possible problem. Since I've been experimenting with various antennas, with and without various pre-amps, for four years now, I have all I can do to restrain myself in responding. Definitely something is going on because the "antenna nulls" or "pre-amp overloads" don't seem to affect any of the other broadcasts from LOM in general and the LCG tower in particular. Even KTVD, which I believe they planned to run at less than 10 kW form the LCG tower, comes in stronger and more stable than KUSA.

I suggest that all who are seeing a drop in KUSA-DT signal strength from RP to LOM contact KUSA and let them know about it. Maybe if they see the magnitude of the problem as reported by those who have actively monitored DTV in metro-Denver for years, they will take a look at the situation or at least fess-up regarding what the problem is.

I seeemed to have developed a technical problem since re-pointing my antenna toward LOM. My antenna has a CM 7775 UHF pre-amp attached on the mast at the antenna. The cable comes into the house after about 40 feet and splits (5 -1000 splitter). There is a 8-10 foot length that goes to Family room HR20-100 which has a DC block at the splitter. The other line goes an additional 45 feet to HT in basement where the power source for the pre-amp is located. The Family room is getting a strong signal in the 80's but I am getting pixelization and break-ups. The HT in the basement is not exhibiting these symptoms at all.
Is it likely that the pre-amp is causing this problem for the Family room only? Would the improved signal strength from LOM create this problem with the pre-amp?
Looking for input before I venture on to the roof again. TIA.

I'm not positive about this and I can't find any reference to verify my position, but here goes. DC Blocks are physically designed to be screwed into the coax connector on the device one wants to protect. I think, but can't prove, that DC Blockers are designed to be one way devices. If you screwed a DC Blocker into the splitter and your DC Blocker looks like everyone I've owned or seen, then it is in backwards. It probably still blocks DC voltage, but it may be interfering with the smooth flow of the RF signal. If all else fails, try reversing that DC Block (will need a coax barrel connector and a coax gender changer; available at Rat Shack).

Just trying to help.

Sunday I went up on my roof and pointed both my antennae(one had been pointed at RP and one at LO Mt., combined on one mast) toward Lookout Mt. At first my readings were a bit disappointing. 2-1 and 31-1 were 90-100, which is where they had been. 4-1 was at 96, which is much higher than it had ever been from RP, but 7-1 and 9-1+2 were lower than I was getting from RP. 20-1 was alittle better in the mid 70's.
I decided to be patient (so very hard for me) and see if it was just that the engineers were still working on getting everything up to full power. After all, if 4-1 is at 96, and 7-1, 9-1+2 and 20-1 are on the same tower, then logically their signal strengths should be at 90-100 also.
When I decided to run the OTA scan for local channels today on my Dish vip622, I noticed that all the channels broadcasting from Lookout Mt, were in the 98-100 range.
I can live with that.:D
After years of waitng for full power OTA HDTV transmisions in Denver its finally here.
Maybe its time to have a party on lookout Mt. We can invite SCARE and make them protective party hats out of alumoinum foil.;)

I am a few blocks SE of Quincy and Chambers. After re-aiming my CM4228 from 298° to 277° magnetic, I am seeing solid 100% on everything except KRMA (40%-50%) and KUSA. Although KUSA is averaging in the 90s, I see the same thing you are describing - The signal strength bounces from 88% to 100% on one tuner and 85% to 96% on the other. As a reference, it did NOT do that when they were transmitting from RP.

Ditto. KUSA did not bounce at RP. I went through all (but one) of the ATSC tuners in my house last night to get strengths, trends, etc. On my Sony tuners, the "bounce" is treated as a really high spike and then settles to the lowest strength. On my HR10-250 (my primary DVR, hence why losing KUSA was an issue in the first place), it bounces all over (even all the way down to 0). Granted, this is the oldest ATSC tuner, but something still is very amiss with their signal for 16. 19 does not exhibit this issue.

For now, I'm going to have to bring my 4228 and 7775 preamp back online since my VHF/UHF setup alone isn't getting a reliable KUSA/16 signal to be able to record. But I will continue to dig at this as it is pretty obvious (to me at least) that they've got something going on that can affect those not in the metro area.

Sunday I went up on my roof and pointed both my antennae(one had been pointed at RP and one at LO Mt., combined on one mast) toward Lookout Mt. At first my readings were a bit disappointing. 2-1 and 31-1 were 90-100, which is where they had been. 4-1 was at 96, which is much higher than it had ever been from RP, but 7-1 and 9-1+2 were lower than I was getting from RP. 20-1 was alittle better in the mid 70's.
I decided to be patient (so very hard for me) and see if it was just that the engineers were still working on getting everything up to full power. After all, if 4-1 is at 96, and 7-1, 9-1+2 and 20-1 are on the same tower, then logically their signal strengths should be at 90-100 also.
When I decided to run the OTA scan for local channels today on my Dish vip622, I noticed that all the channels broadcasting from Lookout Mt, were in the 98-100 range.
I can live with that.:D
After years of waitng for full power OTA HDTV transmisions in Denver its finally here.
Maybe its time to have a party on lookout Mt. We can invite SCARE and make them protective party hats out of alumoinum foil.;)

Just checked my Dish 811 again and KUSA-DT is still the weakest signal I get from LOM. It is 5 points (out of 100 maximum) lower than KTVD and 7 points lower than KMGH. I expect it to be lower than KCNC because KCNC is running at a much higher ERP, but KUSA is still 10 points lower than what I received from RP and RP is a mile further away.

KUSA 9.1&2 are not coming in well up here 63 miles north right now. Pic is all broken up and not viewable - no audio. However the other Lake Cedar channels are all looking good.

So now that I'm pointed to Lookout Mtn, I expected to be able to get a signal for 6-1 KRMA. If I remember, 6-1 is not coming from LM but from somewhere close to LM and the direction from my location in Superior was about the same. Currently, I am getting barely anything from 6-1 with strong readings from all the LM stations.

Is 6-1 transmitting a weaker signal than those from LM? Will they increase signal strength at some point in the future? Or is there something different with the terrain between Superior and the location of 6-1 that will prevent me from ever getting a good signal?

I really don't understand why the two stations who are returning to VHF went through the expense of moving their temporary UHF transmitters for 8-9 months of usable service. Was there some requirement for them to do that imposed by the FCC transition rules? Perhaps their lease at RP is expiring.

--- CHAS

Has antennaweb.org altered the digital stations to be coming form LOM yet?

I really don't understand .... Perhaps their lease at RP is expiring.
CHAS
I would not be a bit surprised if it had something to do with the RP situation. I am sure that not having to pay RP anymore made it worthwhile to move. Of course having better digital coverage in a time when there are more and more HD TVs being sold may have entered into it as well.

IMHO of course.
Phil

So now that I'm pointed to Lookout Mtn, I expected to be able to get a signal for 6-1 KRMA. If I remember, 6-1 is not coming from LM but from somewhere close to LM and the direction from my location in Superior was about the same. Currently, I am getting barely anything from 6-1 with strong readings from all the LM stations.

Is 6-1 transmitting a weaker signal than those from LM? Will they increase signal strength at some point in the future? Or is there something different with the terrain between Superior and the location of 6-1 that will prevent me from ever getting a good signal?

6-1 Is on Mt. Morrison, specifically on the "ice bridge of channel 20's analog tower. There has been discussion on this thread that large areas of Longmont, Boulder, Louisville and neighboring areas, are shadowed because of the low height of their transmitter. I only get a slight wiff from them (1-3%) in Longmont. Hopefully they will move up on the tower, which might help us out up north.

Guys, I'm having nothing but trouble here on Conifer Mt. I'm going to have to start completely over because now my antenna is blocked from LM by my house (before the move, I had a straight LOS shot to downtown) and maybe 500 trees.
I have several questions.
1. I can barely get 4-1 and 9-1, intermittently. But there's no sign of 7-1. Nada. Shouldn't I get a whiff of 7 if I get 4 & 9?
2. I am more or less south or south-southwest of LM. What sort of backwards radiation is there off of these new antennas?
3. Is ch 6-1 below the top and on the east side of Mt. Morrison? Is there any backwards radiation from there at all? I can't get anything from there either.
4. How far south of LM is Mt. Morrison?

Thanks.

Here are the facts according to KUSA engineering. KUSA-DT is using the transmitter from RP with a new antenna on top of the LCG tower with an ERP of 37 KW. KTVD is using the new/post-transition transmitter with an auxilary antenna 100' below the main antenna with an ERP of 96 KW. Given that and what many of us are seeing on our signal meters, the drop in received signal must be due to the type of antennas now being used and the direction those antennas are aimed.

Good news and bad news. If all goes well, KTVD will go to full power, 1 MW, in a few months. However, upon transition KUSA will lower their ERP from the current 37 KW. Perhaps this is the cited 6 KW. They are confident of good broadcast reception at this lower ERP because of better propagation. I'm doubtful. Looks like I'll need a pre-amp for KUSA henceforth. I was hoping that once all the stations got to full power I could drop the pre-amp out of the system, like I do for the current, full power, VHF broadcasts.

Bottom line, today's KUSA-DT signal is apparently as good as it is going to get until 2/17/09 and maybe as good as it is ever going to be. KTVD, OTOH, will probably be topping the scales come late summer.

Bottom line, today's KUSA-DT signal is apparently as good as it is going to get until 2/17/09 and maybe as good as it is ever going to be. KTVD, OTOH, will probably be topping the scales come late summer.

Well, it sounds like it is time for me to start watching News4. If they aren't going to do anything to improve the situation for those of us up north, I'll go with a station I can reliably receive.

Besides, then I don't have to fast forward through Soicher's sportscast anymore. That alone will save me money in replacing remotes when the keys die on them.

My first response from Ken Highberger blew off my concerns and pointed out my pre-amp as the possible problem. Since I've been experimenting with various antennas, with and without various pre-amps, for four years now, I have all I can do to restrain myself in responding. Definitely something is going on because the "antenna nulls" or "pre-amp overloads" don't seem to affect any of the other broadcasts from LOM in general and the LCG tower in particular. Even KTVD, which I believe they planned to run at less than 10 kW form the LCG tower, comes in stronger and more stable than KUSA.

I suggest that all who are seeing a drop in KUSA-DT signal strength from RP to LOM contact KUSA and let them know about it. Maybe if they see the magnitude of the problem as reported by those who have actively monitored DTV in metro-Denver for years, they will take a look at the situation or at least fess-up regarding what the problem is.

I just thought I would post the significant parts of my previous posts which show the AUTHORIZED power listed on the FCC website for the LCG digital transmitters that they are scheduled to use until transition is over.
IF?? KUSA was at 37kW, that would put it below the authorized levels for KCNC and KTDV, but above the authorized level for KMGH. From what I have seen most people seem to be happy with KMGH, and they broadast on adjacent channels (KUSA on 16 and KMGH on 17) so it would hard to explain why a viewer's antenna, amplifiers, and receivers would handle them much differently and there would be a widespread similar problem with KUSA but not KMGH.


BMPCDT 20080314ACF E KUSA-TV 23074 DT GRANTED 03/24/2008
Channel Number: DTV 16 Analog TV, if any 9
Maximum Effective Radiated Power (average power): 37 kW
(I believe the STA for Republic Plaza was for 10.9 kW)

Also, I believe the KMGH (Digital 7-1 on UHF 17) Republic Plaza STA was for 6kW and the Lookout Mountain transition STA(BDSTA 20080402ABP E KMGH-TV 40875 DS GRANTED 05/09/2008 ) is for 30 kW. The documentation for them seems to have their final antenna above the transition one.

As I read it, the KTVD (Digital 20-1 on UHF 19) Republic Plaza STA was for 6.47 kW and the Lookout Mountain CP (BMPCDT 20080422ABE E KTVD 68581 DT GRANTED 04/24/2008) is for 96 kW.

The Construction Permit I located for KCNC is:
BMPCDT 20080507ACP E KCNC-TV 47903 DT GRANTED 05/08/2008
Channel Number: DTV 35 Analog TV, if any 4
Maximum Effective Radiated Power (average power): 978 kW
(Based on other posts, they may not be at that power level for a while. Their Republic Plaza STA was for 11 kW)

IF?? KUSA was at 37kW, that would put it below the authorized levels for KCNC and KTDV, but above the authorized level for KMGH. From what I have seen most people seem to be happy with KMGH, and they broadast on adjacent channels (KUSA on 16 and KMGH on 17) so it would hard to explain why a viewer's antenna, amplifiers, and receivers would handle them much differently and there would be a widespread similar problem with KUSA but not KMGH.

Exactly.

Bottom line, today's KUSA-DT signal is apparently as good as it is going to get until 2/17/09 and maybe as good as it is ever going to be. KTVD, OTOH, will probably be topping the scales come late summer.

I guess that I can look forward to 9 being MIA a lot of the time up here!
"No Signal" since mid morning.

Besides, then I don't have to fast forward through Soicher's sportscast anymore. That alone will save me money in replacing remotes when the keys die on them.

:ROFLMAO:

Stopped bothering with them years ago. Soicher is a dink; Kendrick is a dork.

Even worse: Back when she was a reporter, weekend anchor Carrie McClure dropped a dime on former Brighton schoolteacher Carrie McCandless, the one who copped a plea to charges of engaging in inappropriate sexual activity with a student. Wrong though McCandless may have been, McClure is supposed to be a reporter, not a police snitch. And then 9News promoted her!

Good news and bad news. If all goes well, KTVD will go to full power, 1 MW, in a few months. However, upon transition KUSA will lower their ERP from the current 37 KW. Perhaps this is the cited 6 KW. They are confident of good broadcast reception at this lower ERP because of better propagation.

I'm not sure I understand - right now, KUSA has a digital signal being broadcast at 37 KW on UHF 16, but when they move over to VHF 9 in 2/09, they're going to drop to 6 KW? Is the difference between VHF 9 and UHF 19 (KTVD, which will go to 1 MW) and 100' of elevation worth a 167x increase in ERP? I'm not a EE (which should be obvious) so use small words. :)

KUSA's signal seems to have stabilized this PM. It's very steady at 89-90 on my Dish receiver. Maybe it was the weather - the sun's out now.

KMGH is supposed to be at 30 kW, KUSA claims they're at 37 kW. That diff in power is reflected in my reception as I receive a lower signal strength for KMGH. But directional patterns of their antennas will have some effect also.

The ERP necessary for a VHF digital station is far lower than that required for a UHF station to get equal coverage, all things considered. That's why KTVD at 1000 kW and KUSA at 39.7 kW, if the stations get permission after the freeze (August) to up their power back up to the originally authorized levels, will about be equal in coverage. That's the reason KBDI is going to channel 13 from channel 38, lower power bills, same coverage. Most (some are as high as 60 kW) VHF hi digital stations are under 20 kW ERP. KDEV, which I receive 71 miles away on channel 11, has ERP of 16 kW.

:ROFLMAO:

Stopped bothering with them years ago. Soicher is a dink; Kendrick is a dork.

Even worse: Back when she was a reporter, weekend anchor Carrie McClure dropped a dime on former Brighton schoolteacher Carrie McCandless, the one who copped a plea to charges of engaging in inappropriate sexual activity with a student. Wrong though McCandless may have been, McClure is supposed to be a reporter, not a police snitch. And then 9News promoted her!

Gotta agree with you folks on human content :rofl:

As far as what I see in my 16:9 frame; a comparison between 4 and 9 has me choosing 4 hands down.
On 4, The graphics used are of a much higher quality, there is a minimalist philosophy with the use of graphics, there's no annoying 'crawl' during every single second of news, the graphics don't interfere with the news story when they go 'on the scene' or are using CBS content, and lastly, the FONT IS SMALLER! It looks like a professional document instead of channel 9 crayola letters.
Channel 9 has a crawl taking up at least twice the real estate 4 does, they have it up ALL the time, the font is too big, and it actually covers up the subject of the news story much of the time.

(Hope 7 is listening and formulating their content based on viewer comments) :D

Post-transition, we'll have three high-band VHF channels occupied: 7, 9 and 13. Is 11 still available for licensing, or is it spoken for? I don't know what channels are occupied down in the Springs.

For analog operations, the limited alternate channel selectivity of tube-era receivers forced alternate channels to remain vacant in urban areas. Is that still necessary for DTV, especially if (nearly) everyone is operating from the same location, as on LOM? If not, station operators could save energy and some serious money by running VHF rather than UHF transmitters.


Jim McCauley

Post-transition, we'll have three high-band VHF channels occupied: 7, 9 and 13. Is 11 still available for licensing, or is it spoken for? I don't know what channels are occupied down in the Springs.

For analog operations, the limited alternate channel selectivity of tube-era receivers forced alternate channels to remain vacant in urban areas. Is that still necessary for DTV, especially if (nearly) everyone is operating from the same location, as on LOM? If not, station operators could save energy and some serious money by running VHF rather than UHF transmitters.


Jim McCauley

11 is spoken for ... KDEV with a transmitter just outside Ft Collins (your back yard). This is the RTN affiliate that at one time did ABC for Cheyenne, WY on analog channel 33.

Also, I may be incorrect but I also think that adjacent channels can now be used for 8VSB modulated transmissions, freeing up many more high VHF possibilities.

# Matt

:ROFLMAO:

Stopped bothering with them years ago.

Me too, they call themselves the HD leaders when they are really the HD LAGGERs. Their picture is so horribly pixel ridden because of all the bandwith they waste on weather minus. My SD DVD's look better than their picture. 2-1 is right behind them with a subchannel that broadcasts nothing, what a waste. 6-1 had the best PQ for years, then they added crappy subcahannels and now I can't even get a signal. I've pretty much written them off as well.

9-1 now coming in at 18% with massive breakups, all other LCG stations rock solid at 80+ Looks like weather is going to be a factor for now.

I really don't understand why the two stations who are returning to VHF went through the expense of moving their temporary UHF transmitters for 8-9 months of usable service. Was there some requirement for them to do that imposed by the FCC transition rules? Perhaps their lease at RP is expiring.

--- CHAS
I haven't seen anyone post an official sounding respone to your question, so I'll post my speculation.

I have seen it posted that FCC rules don't force stations to spend any more money on their transition station. I suspect it was a pure business decision.

The move makes total sense for KCNC(4). I believe they are under significant presssure from the FCC to be at or near full power sometime this summer, and would have had a severe problem with the FCC if they did not do it by February of 2009. By doing it ASAP, they were able to improve their coverage over the RP location sooner, and improved coverage area makes it easier to sell advertising.

I believe KTVD(20) is in the same situation as KCNC(4).

I would think that the KUSA(9)/KTVD(20) ownership would have been uncomfortable having their 2 stations in locations that far apart. It would be an advertising sales issue if pointing your antenna to get one of them cost you the other.

When it became clear that the other 3 were moving, I would think KMGH(7) found it necessary to follow. They could not expect a lot of people to maintain an extra antenna for one station, or sacrifice reception of all the other digital stations to get just them.

Once one or more stations came on-line, OSHA rules would have made it more difficult to work on the tower. Also, PR issues and lease costs at RP would probably just add more incentive to move ASAP.

I noticed today that KDEV (11) now has two subchannels. 11-1 is empty and 11-2 seems to be showing FOX network shows.

I noticed today that KDEV (11) now has two subchannels. 11-1 is empty and 11-2 seems to be showing FOX network shows.

I'm showing this as well, but as usually when they try something new, I lose sound. I have just picture on 11-2 with no audio. Great, now I can't watch Wild, Wild West tonight because 11-1 is blank.

Hey folks,

OK, let's see if we can figure out why some of you are having a lot of trouble getting KUSA and KMGH.

First, neither of them broadcast with an omnidirectional antenna, for various reasons. But, look at KMGH's plot of their 30,000 watt signal:


0° 1.000 60° 0.740 120° 0.807 180° 0.991 240° 0.236 300° 0.205 10° 0.948 70° 0.775 130° 0.900 190° 0.971 250° 0.131 310° 0.371 20° 0.807 80° 0.933 140° 0.872 200° 0.874 260° 0.051 320° 0.541 30° 0.791 90° 0.975 150° 0.758 210° 0.723 270° 0.041 330° 0.707 40° 0.882 100° 0.946 160° 0.791 220° 0.545 280° 0.048 340° 0.853 50° 0.852 110° 0.820 170° 0.950 230° 0.376 290° 0.085 350° 0.959


OK. At 30 degrees (and also at 160 degrees form the tower, or roughly northeast/southeast from it, respectively), which is towards Broomfield, you get .791 (79.1%) of the signal directed at you. But wait, this is over an area, so you need to take that number and square it. So, .791^2=.626, or 62.6%.

So we take 30,000 watts X .626 = 18,780 watts.

At 150 degrees (southeast of the tower, say Englewood or Centennial), it's .758, or as your antenna sees it, it's .758 ^2 = 57.4%. 30,000 X .574 = 17,220 watts. Ouch.

Due north it's 1.000, so you are getting the full 30 kw. Due south, it's .991, so you're getting pretty much 100% (98.2% to be anal about it).

Now let's do KUSA. They are at 37 kw, directional. First, it isn't on the FCC website on their main page when you hunt for KUSA; you actually have to dig to find it:

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/cdbsmenu.hts?context=25&appn=101232848&formid=301&fac_num=23074

OK. Using the table here, we see:



0 0.594 10 0.762 20 0.857 30 0.824 40 0.793 50 0.82
60 0.802 70 0.799 80 0.918 90 1 100 0.918 110 0.799
120 0.802 130 0.82 140 0.793 150 0.824 160 0.857 170 0.762
180 0.594 190 0.544 200 0.589 210 0.58 220 0.504 230 0.397
240 0.279 250 0.168 260 0.082 270 0.053 280 0.082 290 0.168
300 0.279 310 0.397 320 0.504 330 0.58 340 0.589 350 0.544

Additional Azimuths: 22 0.858 53 0.822 127 0.822 158 0.858
204 0.596


OK, so they have to have a pretty technical antenna to handle the various regular azimuths and the special ones to protect other stations. So let's
see what happens if you are due north of KUSA. 0 degrees, .594^2 = .352.
So...Boulder, maybe Longmont, Fort Collins, Loveland...

30,000 x .352 = 10,585.08 watts

THERE'S why you aren't getting anything north, Jamjar et al. You need a honkin' antenna with a honkin' amp to get it more than 30 miles, and this with an outdoor antenna! Who else?

Milehighmike at 120 degrees or so:

.820 ^2 = .6724

30,000 x .6724 = 20,172 watts

I leave the rest of you to figure out which direction you live, whip out a calculator, and do the math. One more thing: the FCC allows low-power digital translators/stations 15,000 watts max (analog low powers get 150,000 watts max). These are designed to only go out 10-20 miles at best to superserve an underserved area.

CEB II, ya said it best:

the drop in received signal must be due to the type of antennas now being used and the direction those antennas are aimed.


(Nods head)...along with the lower power right now. And like others have said, in August, I fully expect KUSA to go higher than 6 kw, the FCC screwed over many VHF stations in that regard. I think out there you can go up to 100 kw on channels 7-13. For channel 9, you'd get that on the moon. You can go much farther at much lower power with channels 7-13. I had a friend of mine who locked a channel 10 at 50 watts 30 miles away! :eek: Yes, he was using a large Winegard combo antenna on a 30' tower with a ChannelMaster 7777 preamp, but still...that was impressive, I thought. That 50 watt fleabit was only 600' off the ground, with a transmitter power output of 10 watts!
:eek:

The weather has cleared and now my KUSA-DT signal is down 4 more points to an average of 74. Historically, signals in the mid-70s are very subject to interference, both from in the house and externally. No joy here.

Gilbert,
Thanks for the detailed input of antenna radiation pattern data. Your analysis of the antenna patterns seems to explain why KMGH is a bit lower than some others, but it doesn't seem to fully explain KUSA being my lowest reading. I'm at about 60 degrees from the LCG's new tower so the power drop off doesn't seem as dramatic for KUSA as it does for KMGH based on the data. It will be interesting to see the data on TVFool when they update it for the current broadcast setup on the LCG's new tower.

Hey folks,

OK, let's see if we can figure out why some of you are having a lot of trouble getting KUSA and KMGH.

<snip>

Now let's do KUSA. They are at 37 kw, directional. First, it isn't on the FCC website on their main page when you hunt for KUSA; you actually have to dig to find it:

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/cdbsmenu.hts?context=25&appn=101232848&formid=301&fac_num=23074

OK. Using the table here, we see:



0 0.594 10 0.762 20 0.857 30 0.824 40 0.793 50 0.82
60 0.802 70 0.799 80 0.918 90 1 100 0.918 110 0.799
120 0.802 130 0.82 140 0.793 150 0.824 160 0.857 170 0.762
180 0.594 190 0.544 200 0.589 210 0.58 220 0.504 230 0.397
240 0.279 250 0.168 260 0.082 270 0.053 280 0.082 290 0.168
300 0.279 310 0.397 320 0.504 330 0.58 340 0.589 350 0.544

Additional Azimuths: 22 0.858 53 0.822 127 0.822 158 0.858
204 0.596


OK, so they have to have a pretty technical antenna to handle the various regular azimuths and the special ones to protect other stations. So let's
see what happens if you are due north of KUSA. 0 degrees, .594^2 = .352.
So...Boulder, maybe Longmont, Fort Collins, Loveland...

30,000 x .352 = 10,585.08 watts

THERE'S why you aren't getting anything north, Jamjar et al. You need a honkin' antenna with a honkin' amp to get it more than 30 miles, and this with an outdoor antenna! Who else?

Milehighmike at 120 degrees or so:

.820 ^2 = .6724

30,000 x .6724 = 20,172 watts


Wow. Thanks for that digging. Very much appreciated!

What did KUSA do, buy a used or clearance antenna designed for use elsewhere? eBay? Talk about either incredibly stupid antenna specification or total cost focus. Either way, they're now paying the price for it in terms of unhappy folks. I guess they figured >95% of their viewership gets their signal via cable or satellite, so why bother with OTA?

BTW, for anyone who wants to see the maps as opposed to reading the tables, look at the end of:

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/getattachment_exh.cgi?exhibit_id=625476

It is a little deceptive in that it looks like it should perform better than it does. They needed to superimpose the relative strength on it and I suspect you'd see the "hot" and "cool" spots pretty clearly.

sebenste, thanks for the signal analysis. I did those calculations for my location late this afternoon and came up similar numbers. The burning question I have, though, is that even with the reduced signal due to the directional antennas used by KMGH and KUSA, just about everybody is getting more signal than they did from the transmitters on RP. For example, your calculation for KMGH's signal directed towards my location is 20,172 watts. KMGH's ERP on RP was less than half of that and RP's altitude is lower than LM's. My KMGH signal strength dropped over 10 points from RP versus LM. I have visual line of sight to both locations but I am higher than RP and lower than LM. So it seems something else is at play here. I'm thinking maybe it's got something to do with beam tilt. There was probably no beam tilt from RP and if there's no beam tilt from LM, perhaps some of the signal is literally flying over our heads?

Regarding KDEV, they have always had a subchannel 2. Sometimes its blank, sometimes it shows music videos, and sometimes it shows Fox programming. I have never heard sound on it. I wonder if KDVR knows that KDEV is broadcasting Fox programming in KDVR's backyard (via KFCT in Ft. Collins). Equity Holdings, which owns KDEV, has 4 Fox affiliates in other parts of the country. They're probably sending a Fox feed to KDEV and don't even know it.

Anyone else notice that KCNC-DT seems to be having some audio issues since the move?

Watching the 6:00 news today I would hear an occasional digital audio "bleep" every five minutes or so.

Anyone else? The video didn't seem to block or stutter when the audio had an issue.

Edit: Noticed some video blocks but no audio glitches during Shark…

Well i moved my antenna and now some of the channels (mainly 2-1 and 31-1) seem to freeze, no pixelation just freeze. To fix this i just hit pause then play on my tivo's. is it possible i need to attenuate the signal?

Even worse: Back when she was a reporter, weekend anchor Carrie McClure dropped a dime on former Brighton schoolteacher Carrie McCandless, the one who copped a plea to charges of engaging in inappropriate sexual activity with a student. Wrong though McCandless may have been, McClure is supposed to be a reporter, not a police snitch. And then 9News promoted her!

I never knew about this!

Good for KUSA and bravo for McClure!

There is no, repeat no reason why reporters should ever not act as any public citizen should and notify law enforcement if they have information on criminal behavior.

Personally it still ticks me off when every person who can be identified from the photos of "420 protests" each year aren't brought up on Federal drug charges.

sebenste, thanks for the signal analysis. I did those calculations for my location late this afternoon and came up similar numbers. The burning question I have, though, is that even with the reduced signal due to the directional antennas used by KMGH and KUSA, just about everybody is getting more signal than they did from the transmitters on RP. For example, your calculation for KMGH's signal directed towards my location is 20,172 watts. KMGH's ERP on RP was less than half of that and RP's altitude is lower than LM's. My KMGH signal strength dropped over 10 points from RP versus LM. I have visual line of sight to both locations but I am higher than RP and lower than LM. So it seems something else is at play here. I'm thinking maybe it's got something to do with beam tilt. There was probably no beam tilt from RP and if there's no beam tilt from LM, perhaps some of the signal is literally flying over our heads?


According to the antenna spec in exhibit 43 of the CP, there is 1 degree of downward beam tilt. That's just about perfect for me. The antenna is at 2170m = 1.35mi above sea level. I'm in Louisville and roughly a mile above sea level and about 20 miles from the antenna. Since I'm about .35mi below the antenna, the angle would be arctan(0.35/20). My calculator gave me 1.002 degrees.

The way I see it, the performance of the two UHF Lookout stations operating on their final channels is the most important for analysis at this time. I would think they are operating with their final equipment configurations needing only to adjust power as the overall DTV transition progresses.

Judging by that commanding line of sight view of sight view from up there, if you're in the primary coverage area for these stations, what you see now is what you're going to get.

--- CHAS

The way I see it, the performance of the two UHF Lookout stations operating on their final channels is the most important for analysis at this time. I would think they are operating with their final equipment configurations needing only to adjust power as the overall DTV transition progresses.

Judging by that commanding line of sight view of sight view from up there, if you're in the primary coverage area for these stations, what you see now is what you're going to get.

--- CHAS

True. Sadly, although they are closer to me, with less LOS obstruction, and at a higher ERP, I have between 5% and 10% less signal strength on one of those two channels. I'm truly disappointed in the new tower after waiting all those years. Congrats to those who can now receive signals they couldn't get from RP, but all the new tower has done for me so far is consolidate all my DTV signals to one general direction and finally given me a strong signal for KCNC that isn't affected by internal and external interference.

How bad is the KUSA situation here since they dropped to an average signal strength of 74 on my Dish 811 and 5/10 bars on my Samsung LCD yesterday? Well last night the wife was running the paper shredder in our home office and I got signal breakup watching the L&O SVU finale. No they aren't on the same circuit and EVERYTHING associated with my A/V setup runs through a Monster 3600 power center; all my circuits have been checked for correct polarization and much of my 19 year old electrical system was checked out by a master electrician last November. This interference used to happen to my KCNC signal when it was in the mid-70s from RP. It doesn't happen to any signal that gets over 80 on my Dish 811. That's why the current 74 for KUSA is so disappointing.

The way I see it, the performance of the two UHF Lookout stations operating on their final channels is the most important for analysis at this time. I would think they are operating with their final equipment configurations needing only to adjust power as the overall DTV transition progresses.

--- CHAS

IF the other stations operating at alternate frequencies until the Feb 2009 transition were reliably receivable, then perhaps I'd agree. However, this is what we in the Denver/Front Range area have to live with until that time, and not being able to reliably receive one of those two temporary transmitter setups (thus not view the programs on those networks) IS an issue (assuming you want to watch shows on that network) and thus why analyzing those for causes and potential ways to adapt is more important right now.

But the stations on UHF Channels 16 & 17 are going back to VHF so next year they will be using their permanent antenna(s). Who here really knows what's happening up there now?

Additionally, VHF has less signal loss when there are leaves on the trees and less (apparent) path (spreading) loss. I think you'll just need to wait until February and not be upset about the performance of temporary allocations.

I'm curious if anyone now having problems with Channels 16 & 17 experience difficulties receiving the analog broadcasts from Lookout. Now that would be a sign of future problems.

The experts claim ATSC will give equal coverage with a tenth the power of analog. It's a complicated 'apples vs oranges' technical argument that I don't understand so I'm somewhat skeptical but I do believe most of you receiving clear analog will have no problems next year.

I wouldn't have moved my temporary transmitters from RP for the reasons that are becoming apparent.

--- CHAS

Just as a point of reference, I am close to Hampden and Sheridan in the bottom of Bear Valley. Checking the signal strength on an ATI HD Wonder PC card from my RS VU 60 (I think, it is about a five foot long VHF?UHF antenna) mounted on a 10 foot piece of pipe above the roof ridge on my two storry house. It is still poinintg at RP (I hope to fix that next weekend). As the antenna is pointed now, from here, LOM is just about dead off the side of the antenna.

2-1 66%
4-1 74%
6-1 00%
7-1 88%
9-1 88%
20-1 91%
31-1 88%

I hope when I move the antenna to point at LOM, I might get something on 6-1. Anyway, KUSA seems to be doing lots better here than before. IIRC I was getting around 68% from them before the move.
Phil

Phil, thanks for that report. We are practically neighbors. Right now I'm on Comcast (probably going to D* very soon), but I ordered a Silver Sensor from Amazon for testing purposes. It should be here soon, and your post gives me hope that it may actually work.

I have no interest in going OTA-only, but it's a nice option to have.

But the stations on UHF Channels 16 & 17 are going back to VHF so next year they will be using their permanent antenna(s). Who here really knows what's happening up there now?

Additionally, VHF has less signal loss when there are leaves on the trees and less (apparent) path (spreading) loss. I think you'll just need to wait until February and not be upset about the performance of temporary allocations.

I'm curious if anyone now having problems with Channels 16 & 17 experience difficulties receiving the analog broadcasts from Lookout. Now that would be a sign of future problems.

The experts claim ATSC will give equal coverage with a tenth the power of analog. It's a complicated 'apples vs oranges' technical argument that I don't understand so I'm somewhat skeptical but I do believe most of you receiving clear analog will have no problems next year.

I wouldn't have moved my temporary transmitters from RP for the reasons that are becoming apparent.

--- CHAS

As previously noted, I'm having trouble with DTV Channel 16 (DTV Channel 17, while a lower signal strength than from RP is still good). I get analog Channels 2, 4, 6, and 12 crystal clear without the need for a pre-amp. I get analog Channels 7 and 9 with a strong signal w/o use of a pre-amp, but both have ghosts (9 more so than 7). I don't receive a strong enough signal from analog 20 or 31 to be watchable without use of a pre-amp and both have ghosts (understandable for 20 because my antenna isn't pointed at it).

Now look at the ERP of those analog channels:

2 - 100 KW
4 - 100 KW
6 - 100 KW
7 - 316 KW
9 - 316 KW
12 - 226 KW
20 - 5 MW
31 - 5 MW

Given the foregoing and my scepticism regarding any 10 fold or more efficiency of digital signals versus analog signals, any of the UHF DTV channels with final power less than 1 MW and VHF DTV channels with final power less than 100 KW are probably going to be a disappointment to the general population of metro-Denver. There will be no rush to use set-top antennas next year as few will get a strong enough signal to be happy with the results.

If what it takes to get OTA DTV next year for most of metro-Denver is a roof or attic mounted antenna and maybe a pre-amp, then the average viewer will just stick with cable or DBS because they aren't going to go through that expense and effort. That level of OTA access will be like going back to the old days for most folks and they won't do it. So it will just be us folks on this forum that will do almost anything to get a pristine OTA DTV signal and those buying converter boxes because they can't or don't want to pay for cable or DBS. Somehow, this just doesn't seem like the vision I and I know some others had when all the hoopla over OTA DTV started years ago.

Just my 2 cents.

I'm happy with the signals coming from LM. I can now get good digital signals on 4, 7 ,9 and 20. Before I got nothing on any of them. I'm using the same setup that I used for the analog signals and the picture quality is much better with the digital transmission. I do wish that I could get the digital signals from 12 (38), but I don't.

I'm happy with the signals coming from LM. I can now get good digital signals on 4, 7 ,9 and 20...

Where at in Longmont? I'm near 17th and Alpine. Sunday afternoon I could receive KUSA, though there were some break-ups. As of last night KUSA was DOA for me. The other three are coming in strong.

Though I'm very happy to have the LCG tower up and running, it is disappointing that everything is significantly weaker than what was on Lookout (or, from here, Squaw) previously. My OnAir GT reports the following S/N:

Old channels:
2-1: 27-28 dB
31-1: 27-28 dB
12-1: 16-19 dB when antenna pointed at Lookout, a small tweak of the rotator brings it to 26+ dB.

It is easy to get all of the above channels reliably with one antenna orientation.

New channels:
4-1: 21-22 dB
7-1: 17-18 dB
9-1: 7-9 dB, won't lock, though two other tuners will lock, using the same antenna (Winegard HD7080 VHF/UHF combo)
20-1: 16-18 dB, with breakups

Strangely, this OnAir GT, which is supposed to have the highly-regarded 4th-gen LG tuner, seems to have more trouble than either the Hauppauge card, or my old Echostar 6000 w/8VSB module. The OnAir GT folks say 20 dB is the minimum for reliable reception. From LCG, only KCNC meets that standard, and not by a lot of margin.

But, no matter what, they are all weaker than the old channels by a large amount. Hopefully things will get better in the coming months and in Feb' 09.

And then there is KRMA-DT... They really need to do something before next February.

Mark

Where at in Longmont? I'm near 17th and Alpine. Sunday afternoon I could receive KUSA, though there were some break-ups. As of last night KUSA was DOA for me. The other three are coming in strong.I'm in southern Longmont; near Lefthand and Sunset.

The OnAir GT folks say 20 dB is the minimum for reliable reception.

That's interesting; when I talked to KUSA on Monday they said they consider 15dB and above to be "perfect" reception.

sebenste, thanks for the signal analysis. I did those calculations for my location late this afternoon and came up similar numbers. The burning question I have, though, is that even with the reduced signal due to the directional antennas used by KMGH and KUSA, just about everybody is getting more signal than they did from the transmitters on RP. For example, your calculation for KMGH's signal directed towards my location is 20,172 watts. KMGH's ERP on RP was less than half of that and RP's altitude is lower than LM's. My KMGH signal strength dropped over 10 points from RP versus LM. I have visual line of sight to both locations but I am higher than RP and lower than LM. So it seems something else is at play here. I'm thinking maybe it's got something to do with beam tilt. There was probably no beam tilt from RP and if there's no beam tilt from LM, perhaps some of the signal is literally flying over our heads?

Regarding KDEV, they have always had a subchannel 2. Sometimes its blank, sometimes it shows music videos, and sometimes it shows Fox programming. I have never heard sound on it. I wonder if KDVR knows that KDEV is broadcasting Fox programming in KDVR's backyard (via KFCT in Ft. Collins). Equity Holdings, which owns KDEV, has 4 Fox affiliates in other parts of the country. They're probably sending a Fox feed to KDEV and don't even know it.

I didn't see anything that suggested a downtilt, so yep, some of that signal is going up, up and away, BUT...it is being broadcast out in all directions.
In other words, it won't affect anything unless it specifically has a downtilt.

Now, let's go on the antenna side of things...

Those wonderful contour maps people have highlighted here from the FCC assume at least the following three things:

1. The antenna is outside;
2. The antenna is 30' into the air;
3. There are NO obstructions between you and the transmitter, including other buildings, trees, cell phone towers, etc
4. You have a "proper"ly sized antenna, as the FCC would suggest

What if your antenna is in the attic or in the living room? You lose about 10 dB, or 90% of your signal.

What if you get multipath? That reduces signal quality further.

In other words, if your antenna is indoors, take that FCC contour and shrink it in all directions by 90%. And signals bounce around like crazy in homes,
so reception will be uneven.

So for many of you...you have the stations at 30kw and 37 kw coming in at 20kw or less, reduced by 90% due to loss from an indoor antenna and multipath.

And some tuners do better than others, even by channel.

And what you have is a gigantic mess, until everyone goes full power.

Lookout Mountain made things better, but it won't be until *after* February 2009, when everyone goes full power on their final channels, that things will really shine in the Denver DTV world.

And you can blame Deb for that, too.

But at the very least, things are considerably to much better. 10 kw off of Lookout is much better than 10 kw from RP. I used to get a 15 kw from Sears Tower on a third generation tuner 60 miles out from Chicago. And that from a ChannelMaster 4228 8-bay UHF antenna in an attic, low near a river valley! :eek:

So who won the Ferrari and lifetime subscription to "RF Will Kill Us All" magazine, Ernie? ;) :D

That's interesting; when I talked to KUSA on Monday they said they consider 15dB and above to be "perfect" reception.Then I call BS on them.

I have a previous generation of the OnAir, two Fusion cards, and a "fifth generation" LG STB. For both the OnAir and Fusion 15db is the level below which any reception is impossible. 18-20db is the minimum requirement for reliable reception. And while my LG STB doesn't report signal strength in db, I have to believe it has similar requirements for reliable reception, since it tends to lose reception at about the same time as the others when fed the same signal.

Strangely, this OnAir GT, which is supposed to have the highly-regarded 4th-gen LG tuner, seems to have more trouble than either the Hauppauge card, or my old Echostar 6000 w/8VSB module. The OnAir GT folks say 20 dB is the minimum for reliable reception. From LCG, only KCNC meets that standard, and not by a lot of margin.

That's interesting; when I talked to KUSA on Monday they said they consider 15dB and above to be "perfect" reception.

dB is relative. It's not a unit of measure, it's merely a ratio of one number to another. I'm looking at my WinTV-D (first or second gen tuner) and it doesn't go above 21.4 dB. The WinTV-D starts decoding around 14 dB and is pretty solid at 15.5 dB, and so that's probably the number the KUSA engineer is referring to. The other thing to note is that its signal scale starts at -11 dB.

On the other hand, my DViCO 5th gen receiver goes up to ~30 dB, and won't decode below 20ish dB (I'd have to check, I generally just use the percent figure on it).

I wish I could explain it better, but I don't remember my Science of Information class I took in the Fall semester at college well enough. I hope I pick it up better in some of my upcoming classes next year.

- Trip

Well I have lost KUSA & KMGH now after the move. I was able to get everything the RP building.

I'm over by Alameda High School & have a strait unabstructed shot at LM. The antenna is on a 25' mast.

KMGH is below OK with breakups every few seconds & KUSA is just not there.

KUSA should swap antennas with KTVD. :D

Rather than using dB to measure reception, I believe that signal to noise (SNR) is more relevant. Unfortunately, most tuners don't provide SNR information. The only one I know of that does is the Accurian set top box. My Accurian's will lock a signal when the SNR is about 17 or above.

I'm happy with the signals coming from LM. I can now get good digital signals on 4, 7 ,9 and 20. Before I got nothing on any of them. I'm using the same setup that I used for the analog signals and the picture quality is much better with the digital transmission. I do wish that I could get the digital signals from 12 (38), but I don't.

I am also in Longmont, near 17th and Pace, and I am happy with some of the signals from Lookout Mountain:
(34) 2.1 KWGN-DT 95
(17) 7.1 KMGH-DT 58
(19)20.1 KTVD-DT 75
(32)31.1 KDVR-DT 80
are all clear
(35) 4.1 KCNC-DT 52
I can pick up sometimes via my TiVoHD but not directly via my HDTV???
(16) 9.1 KUSA-DT 0-20
I can not pick up at all. (Testing with my TiVoHD the signal fluctuates 0-20s)

From Mount Morrison I can pick up:
(15)14.1 KTFD-DT 70
but not:
(18) 6.1 KRMA-DT 0

The signal from Squaw Mountain does not get here:
(38)12.1 KBDI-DTV 0-20

Of course 6 and 12 are the ones I really want!

I wonder if the (35) 4.1 KCNC-DT signal is incomplete and TiVo manages to interpret it but my HDTV (Sony KDL40V2500) cannot???

Finally got a chance to check out my reception on the bedroom TiVo with the safety-pin antenna. Short story - I get all the LCG stations with enough signal strength for a stable picture. Sweet! Prior to the Lookout Mountain move, this setup only got sporadic signal on 7 and 9.

Rather than using dB to measure reception, I believe that signal to noise (SNR) is more relevant. Unfortunately, most tuners don't provide SNR information. The only one I know of that does is the Accurian set top box. My Accurian's will lock a signal when the SNR is about 17 or above.

Sorry, my bad, and I apologize for the confusion.

KUSA told me a SNR of 15dB of above was considered "perfect" and in addition to a numbered bar my Sony 32XBR4 HDTV also gives SNRs in dB, and that's the number I was quoting.

I realize signal strength can also be given in dB and I didn't mean to imply KUSA thought a signal strength of 15 db was "perfect."

By the way, I'm still getting occasional audio glitches and a blocky or two now and then on KCNC even though their signal strength is way good for me; anyone else?

Who can receive KDEV-DT reliably? It's an odd little station that is licensed in Wyoming but broadcasts from Horsetooth Mountain southwest of Fort Collins. For some time, they also had been broadcasting as KDEV-LP from the Aurora area -- I think that's off the air now.

I ask because despite its general flakiness (EIT data tends to be erroneous or nonexistent) and peculiar program content (sometimes Retro Television Network, sometimes some satellite-ported Fox affiliate from who knows where), the station occupies a fairly valuable piece of RF real estate: Channel 11, which is in the VHF high-band.

Currently, KDEV-DT has two multiplex elements: 11-1, which has no programming, and 11-2, which is carrying some Fox programming. (RTN vanished from 11-1 the other day.)


Jim McCauley

Who can receive KDEV-DT reliably? It's an odd little station that is licensed in Wyoming but broadcasts from Horsetooth Mountain southwest of Fort Collins. For some time, they also had been broadcasting as KDEV-LP from the Aurora area -- I think that's off the air now.

Currently, KDEV-DT has two multiplex elements: 11-1, which has no programming, and 11-2, which is carrying some Fox programming. (RTN vanished from 11-1 the other day.)


Jim McCauley

It is only a few degrees West of my antenna bore sight and comes in very strong here. Nothing on 11-1 for a while now, the other day 11-2 was broadcasting Fox from Billings MT I think - definitely a MT station.

Who can receive KDEV-DT reliably? It's an odd little station that is licensed in Wyoming but broadcasts from Horsetooth Mountain southwest of Fort Collins. For some time, they also had been broadcasting as KDEV-LP from the Aurora area -- I think that's off the air now.

I ask because despite its general flakiness (EIT data tends to be erroneous or nonexistent) and peculiar program content (sometimes Retro Television Network, sometimes some satellite-ported Fox affiliate from who knows where), the station occupies a fairly valuable piece of RF real estate: Channel 11, which is in the VHF high-band.

Currently, KDEV-DT has two multiplex elements: 11-1, which has no programming, and 11-2, which is carrying some Fox programming. (RTN vanished from 11-1 the other day.)


Jim McCauley

11-1 is usually rock solid for me. I'm in Longmont so my antenna is pointed away from them toward the south at LM. When I used to be pointed at RP, I got them a little better. I think this was because I am in a direct line bewteen Horsetooth and RP and it was coming in perfectly from the backside of the antenna. Now that I am slightly off angle pointing to LM, 11-1's signal has dropped but I still get at a reliable lock. Keep in mind this is with a UHF RS antenna and amp. If I ever turned my VHF rig to the north, their signal would probably blow my roof off. I probably will take my UHF and point in north after the transition because I will easily be able to pick up 5-1, 22-1, 11-1 (and probably will have a good chance at 28-1 since I get 5-1(30-1) easily). That way I will be able to get all of the LM(via my combo VHF UHF rig) and the Cheyenne stations(via UHF rig).

By the way, I'm still getting occasional audio glitches and a blocky or two now and then on KCNC even though their signal strength is way good for me; anyone else?

Yes, I've seen a blocky or two now and then on KCNC-DT even with a solid 90+ signal strength on my Dish 811. No fluctuation in signal strength and no cutout in audio signal. Seems strange, but it is infrequent enough that I don't worry about it.

11-1 is usually rock solid for me. I'm in Longmont so my antenna is pointed away from them toward the south at LM.

Interesting. Can you get the RMPBS stations on Mount Morrison -- 6-1 (KRMA-DT) or 6-2 (V-me) -- at all at your location?


Jim McCauley

Interesting. Can you get the RMPBS stations on Mount Morrison -- 6-1 (KRMA-DT) or 6-2 (V-me) -- at all at your location?


Jim McCauley

I can't get either KRMA-DT or KBDI-DT from my location.

I receive KDEV on channel 11. Since I pointed my antenna away from RP to LM, (north to west) I can't receive the station off the side of my antenna. KDEV is 71 miles away from my location and according to TV Fool, I have line of sight. I only have a UHF antenna.

For some time, they also had been broadcasting as KDEV-LP from the Aurora area -- I think that's off the air now.

Jim, KDEV-LP channel 39 is on the air with RTN programming. It was MIA for about five days a month ago, but it's been back since about April 18.

Other posters have commented on how screwed up KDEV-DT's data signal can be, which is perhaps what you've encountered. I don't get channel 11 reliably here, but I've seen enough of it to observe lack of audio on both 11-1 and 11-2, the weird flopping on 11-2 between no-sound music videos and a no-sound FOX Network feed, and so forth.
(rant)
Owner Denver Broadcasting certainly seems to want a piece of the 18th largest television market, hence the LP station licensed to Aurora and the Horsetooth Mountain DTV transmitter location, but they apparently aren't willing to spend any more than the bare minimum amount of money to run these outlets.
(/rant)

Anybody know anything about/have any experience with a Terrestial 42XG uhf high gain antenna?
Anybody on the west side of town wanna get rid of your CM 4228?

Interesting. Can you get the RMPBS stations on Mount Morrison -- 6-1 (KRMA-DT) or 6-2 (V-me) -- at all at your location?


Jim McCauley

The funny thing is, my strongest station is KTFD 14-1 at 88% which I believe is on the same tower as 6-1 or very close by. Maybe by the cutoff date they will do something, but I wouldn't hold my breath. Instead of listening to what their viewers are telling them, they just insist they are covering the same area as their analog. Good public relations hunh? They must be getting all their pledges from cable viewers. If they ever upgrade their coat hanger and move it higher up on the tower, I probably would be able to get them.

Great to hear that lookout mountain is now broadcasting digital. I've been away from this forum for a while, so my apologies for not tracking it down in an earlier post, but can somebody list all of the OTA digital stations in the metro area that I should be trying to tune in when I hook back up my rabbit ears and give it a whirl? Thanks!

Anybody on the west side of town wanna get rid of your CM 4228?

Actually yes, I have a 4228 that I will want to get rid of just as soon as I can get it off the roof.

The funny thing is, my strongest station is KTFD 14-1 at 88% which I believe is on the same tower as 6-1 or very close by.

Well, here's the deal with KRMA-DT's antenna. It's location on the ice bridge is only a few feet off the ground, and the "view" from the antenna to the (literally) north-by-northwest is blocked by ground that it just high enough to obstruct the signal. And on this higher ground is the KTFD transmitter building -- yet another obstacle -- and its tower. It's really obvious if you take a look at Mount Morrison on Google Earth; it leaves you wondering, "What were they thinking?"

Jim McCauley

CEB, here's your plot. You may not recall, but I actually put one together for you about 3 years ago (9/05). I reran this since the new tower is a little lower down the mountain. Remember that this plot does not include the height of the tower (730' IIRC).

By the way, I have a friend up in the Brook Forest area SW of Evergreen (see first plot) who still gets nothing digital via OTA except 14-1 (which is amusing for a while, but not long term). I think he should check his antenna (it's inside the attic), but he does get some of the analog stations. Another friend south of Conifer (see second plot) gets great OTA reception with a flat plate antenna (don't know what kind) mounted outside on the chimney.

Great to hear that lookout mountain is now broadcasting digital. I've been away from this forum for a while, so my apologies for not tracking it down in an earlier post, but can somebody list all of the OTA digital stations in the metro area that I should be trying to tune in when I hook back up my rabbit ears and give it a whirl? Thanks!


KWGN-DT 2.1 CW
KMGH-DT 7.1 ABC
KCEC-DT 51.1 UNI
KRMT-DT 40.1 DAY
KDVR-DT 31.1 FOX
KDEN-DT 29.1 IND
KUSA-DT 9.1 NBC
KBDI-DT 13.1 PBS
KDEV-DT 11.1 RTN, ABC, FOX etc. etc
KFCT-DT 21.1 FOX
KWHD-DT 53.1 IND
KTVD-DT 20.1 MY
KCNC-DT 4.1 CBS
KRMA-DT 6.1 PBS
KTFD-DT 15.1 TFA
KWHD-DT 53.1 IND
KGWN-DT 5.1 CBS, CW etc (Cheyenne)
:)

My Sony TV last year scanned and found a bunch of digital signals now in memory for channel 40-1->12

No signal shows up there - anyone know what may have triggered those channels into memory?

My Sony TV last year scanned and found a bunch of digital signals now in memory for channel 40-1->12

The screwed up PSIP info from KRMT, analog 41. They're just blank placeholders. On my tuners, they go all the way up to 4-15 or 40-16. Some of my tuners tune the signal on 40-16, others on 40-17.

CEB, here's your plot. You may not recall, but I actually put one together for you about 3 years ago (9/05). I reran this since the new tower is a little lower down the mountain. Remember that this plot does not include the height of the tower (730' IIRC).

Thanks gakon. Yes, I still have that plot from KDVR to my house that you ran 3 years ago. I knew that the new LCG tower would make some difference in LOS plot and I wasn't sure that I gave you as precise a coordinate set last time. Thanks again.

Your plot confirms that I really have a straight shot at the LCG tower, much better than the azimuth I had to RP. So, with KUSA being closer, at higher power, and without terrain interference (unless there are some 500' tall trees on the hill between the LCG tower and me), it seems to confirm that the problem is KUSA's antenna (type, orientation). I can't use my 91XG antenna for LOM because it is too long to run cross-wise in my attic except at floor level and that is just a guess, but I'm thinking of pulling my Winegard PR-9018 out of mothballs and using it for UHF signals from LOM.

CEB II

Test

test

Great to hear that lookout mountain is now broadcasting digital. I've been away from this forum for a while, so my apologies for not tracking it down in an earlier post, but can somebody list all of the OTA digital stations in the metro area that I should be trying to tune in when I hook back up my rabbit ears and give it a whirl? Thanks!

Based on the inability of some us to receive useable DTV LOM signals w/o large antennas and pre-amps, you may not see much with rabbit ears and a loop on top of your TV. Maybe come next February 17th.

...you may not see much with rabbit ears and a loop on top of your TV. Maybe come next February 17th.

Thanks. I just ran a couple scans with the rabbit ears in different positions for both digital and analog OTA. Got nothin. Even in analog, I can only barely get channel 2 and 25, so I guess I'm in a shadow up here in north Boulder. From Google Earth it looks like I was close to LOS, but it is about 20 miles away.

Looks like I'll stay with my basic cable for $13/month and check back in next year...

Looks like I'll stay with my basic cable for $13/month and check back in next year...

I have Comcast basic cable and through a Clear QAM capable tuner (ie Samsung Sir-t451) I was able to receive the locals in HD when I tested it several years ago. I'm fortunate that I could get signals from RP and gave up on the idea of QAM (the SIR-T451 also had an issue with CBS).

Note: I get KCNC & KTVD at 100% :D but KUSA & KMGH are only at 70 to 80% :confused: now that they moved to Lookout Mtn.

Good Luck

Rabbit ears from 6300 S Broadway to LOM...all full signals (most of the time...?)...google earth says 16.5 miles. CEB, I wonder if you have an antenna problem at your house...maybe too much antenna. You should be good, looking at your plot and things, and looking from my house to LOM with my rabbit ears and I'm twice as far.

Tim

Can anyone confirm if KCNC is transmitting TVGOS data? Thanks!

I just moved my antenna from the back yard, which had line of sight and was optimized for RP. I did a chimney mount this time, which is better for LM. Things are looking much better. I'm getting KBDI-DT for the first time ever, they really need some HD! 9-1 is looking much stronger. I even have a strong wiff of 6-1 at 51%, might be usable with some tweaking. Guess I'll have to quit complaining about KRMA if I can watch a little, probably when the weather is just right. 2-1 is my strongest signal now. Here are all my new signal strengths:

93% 2.1
82% 4.1
51% 6.1
88% 7.1
83% 9.1
69% 12.1
89% 14.1
88% 20.1
88% 31.1

:):D:)

I just moved my antenna from the back yard, which had line of sight and was optimized for RP. I did a chimney mount this time, which is better for LM. Things are looking much better. I'm getting KBDI-DT for the first time ever, they really need some HD! 9-1 is looking much stronger. I even have a strong wiff of 6-1 at 51%, might be usable with some tweaking. Guess I'll have to quit complaining about KRMA if I can watch a little, probably when the weather is just right. 2-1 is my strongest signal now. Here are all my new signal strengths:

93% 2.1
82% 4.1
51% 6.1
88% 7.1
83% 9.1
69% 12.1
89% 14.1
88% 20.1
88% 31.1

:):D:)

I think you need to tweak that antenna a little more. KCNC shouldn't be that low compared to the others on the LCG tower. They are at a much higher ERP right now and I think most folks are seeing them as one of the strongest signals. Try a few degrees of upward tilt if you haven't done so already.

CEB II and sunshinedawg -

I'm in SW Longmont (near 75th & Clover Basin) and KCNC is by far my lowest signal strength from LOM. It is actually cutting out fairly regularly. I'm using a Dish ViP622 with rabbit ears, and KCNC shows between 68 and 70 on the meter, while the three other LOM stations are all at least in the upper 80's (KMGH is 90-92!).

Granted, I'm using rabbit ears at the moment... But, last Sunday I was getting KCNC as clear as can be, and it was second only to KMGH for signal strength. I don't remember the numbers on the meter, but it was definitately close to 80 or above.

Since Monday, I've had problems with KCNC. If I had a nice attic antenna, this probably wouldn't be a problem, but I don't have much spare time to try that these days.

I think you need to tweak that antenna a little more. KCNC shouldn't be that low compared to the others on the LCG tower. They are at a much higher ERP right now and I think most folks are seeing them as one of the strongest signals. Try a few degrees of upward tilt if you haven't done so already.

I have a very strong lock on KCNC, with no breakups, no concern there. Anything over 65% is usable for me. I will tweak for KRMA. My PC pvr needs a little stronger signal than my plasma to get a good recording. I will have to experiment with splitters and different antenna's etc. to get the right combo for the plasma, the HT and the PC.



CEB II and sunshinedawg -

I'm in SW Longmont (near 75th & Clover Basin) and KCNC is by far my lowest signal strength from LOM. It is actually cutting out fairly regularly. I'm using a Dish ViP622 with rabbit ears, and KCNC shows between 68 and 70 on the meter, while the three other LOM stations are all at least in the upper 80's (KMGH is 90-92!).

Granted, I'm using rabbit ears at the moment... But, last Sunday I was getting KCNC as clear as can be, and it was second only to KMGH for signal strength. I don't remember the numbers on the meter, but it was definitately close to 80 or above.

Since Monday, I've had problems with KCNC. If I had a nice attic antenna, this probably wouldn't be a problem, but I don't have much spare time to try that these days.

Yeah that sounds about right. KCNC was usually pretty strong over the last few years, but was certainly weaker than KUSA and was prone to break ups when the leafs changed or the weather got weird or whatever strange atmospheric problem cropped up that I could never explain.

I get strong signals from 6.1 and 31.1. I'm also trying to get the signals from the new LCG tower (4.1, 7.1, 9.1 and 20.1). The weird thing to me is, I do get 20.1, but none of the others. Any thoughts on why I'm getting only one of these, and what I can do to pick up the rest? (I live east of I-25 and Orchard, approx. 25 mi. from Lookout Mountain). Thanks.

Ok, after much tweaking, I got 6-1 up to 58% on the panny plasma, and 46% on my old DTC100 in the HT. Signal is bouncing around a lot. Both are watchable, only 4-5 breakups per hour. I can't lock on with the MYHD card in the PC, oh well, at least I can watch PBS again! :)

I get strong signals from 6.1 and 31.1. I'm also trying to get the signals from the new LCG tower (4.1, 7.1, 9.1 and 20.1). The weird thing to me is, I do get 20.1, but none of the others. Any thoughts on why I'm getting only one of these, and what I can do to pick up the rest? (I live east of I-25 and Orchard, approx. 25 mi. from Lookout Mountain). Thanks.

How strongly are you getting 20.1? The problem might be on your end, do you have a second tuner or one you can borrow to see if both are affected? If neither of them get the other LCG's, see if you can optimize the 20.1 signal, it will act as a "locator" signal for you, and might help u lock the others.

That's an interesting idea, thanks. My display has a built-in tuner - I wonder if it's just a shoddy piece of hardware and I'd get better results if I bought a separate tuner? And further to your point about optimizing my existing signal, what kind of equipment would I need to get the %s that I see other people quoting?

I get strong signals from 6.1 and 31.1. I'm also trying to get the signals from the new LCG tower (4.1, 7.1, 9.1 and 20.1). The weird thing to me is, I do get 20.1, but none of the others. Any thoughts on why I'm getting only one of these, and what I can do to pick up the rest? (I live east of I-25 and Orchard, approx. 25 mi. from Lookout Mountain). Thanks.

It may not be your tuner at all. Here are a couple of possible factors to consider:

-- One or more of the DTC office buildings may be causing multipath signal distortion, which will kill reception if bad enough, or a building might be partially in the way of those three signals. The LOM antennas aren't all at the same height on the tower. IIRC, KTVD's antenna is temporarily higher up than KUSA's, for example.

-- You may be in a low spot. The neighborhood on both sides of Orchard about halfway between Yosemite and Dayton comes to mind here.

-- What are you using for an antenna? Rabbit ears or a mis-pointed roof or attic antenna might cause this.

-- Conversely, a big antenna with a high powered pre-amp can cause tuner overload at that distance, blanking both picture and sound. Too much antenna is just as bad as not enough in this way. Check your signal strength: High readings (say, 85%-plus) and no picture/sound are solid hints of overload and/or serious multipath issues.

By way of comparison, we're 22 miles from LOM with visual line of sight, using an amplified Rat Shack 21" disc antenna in the attic (in other words, rather less than ideal), located near Parker/Quincy. We get all four stations with no drop-outs at all. The "weakest" is 9.1, averaging 80% signal strength; strongest is 7.1, averaging 90%-plus.

Thanks Don. Unfortunately, I'm pretty much Ground Zero of the low spot you referred to, right between Havana and Peoria. I have a non-amped 40" boom in my attic. Since the new tower went live, I've spent half an hour up there with my wife telling me "better" and "worse" as I tried different directions. I wonder if the new condo buildings at I-25 and Belleview are causing my problem, because when I moved here a couple years ago (before they went up) I got pretty much all the HD broadcasts.

How can I numerically measure signal strength? My TV just scans for digital signals and says it got it, or not, but doesn't indicate %. What equipment would I need to do that? I definitely want to diagnose this and determine my available options; right now they don't sound good. I wonder if my HOA will pitch a fit if I put a 50-ft mast on my roof... Thanks again for the insights.

That's an interesting idea, thanks. My display has a built-in tuner - I wonder if it's just a shoddy piece of hardware and I'd get better results if I bought a separate tuner? And further to your point about optimizing my existing signal, what kind of equipment would I need to get the %s that I see other people quoting?

You don't necessarily need more equipment. You need to do a little trouble shooting. The main things that affect reception on your end are: type of antenna, location of your antenna and length of the cable run from tv to antenna.

There could be problems out of your control, like multipath or no line of sight or distance problems.

What you have to do is figure out what you can do to make your reception the best. Some things to try: use the shortest cable run possible, don't use splitters, try an amp, try a different tuner, try a different antenna, move your antenna.

Try to isolate why you get 20.1 but not the others. Sometimes you can manually enter a channel, ie 9-1(try its physical # too, 16-1) and see if your tuner does anything with it, even if it didn't find it in an auto scan. Try your antenna outside, in a location (took me two hrs this morning to fine tune 6-1 with my Radio Shack yagi) with good line of sight to LM.

All of my tuners have signal meters sounds like yours don't. It would be really useful to know how strong that 20.1 signal is. I've found that attics are not the best places for antennas. You can put an antenna on your controlled dwelling and they can't do anything about it but whine. There are others on this forum that can give you the specifics.

Does anyone know a cheap way to connect an antenna to the TV using a HDMI cable?? I have the cable going into the one coax connection on the TV and am picking up all channels on the QAM tuner except 4.1 and 7.1. Now that they are on LOM I will be getting an antenna for these last 2 channels to fill out my HDTV lineup (Couldn't get any signal from RP when they were there). Rather than using a switch to run both the antenna and cable into the coax input I would like to run it into one of the several HDMI ports I have.

Thanks.

Does anyone know a cheap way to connect an antenna to the TV using a HDMI cable?? I have the cable going into the one coax connection on the TV and am picking up all channels on the QAM tuner except 4.1 and 7.1. Now that they are on LOM I will be getting an antenna for these last 2 channels to fill out my HDTV lineup (Couldn't get any signal from RP when they were there). Rather than using a switch to run both the antenna and cable into the coax input I would like to run it into one of the several HDMI ports I have.

Thanks.There is no way to connect an antenna to an HDMI input on a TV. You could connect the antenna to an external ATSC tuner STB having an HDMI output, and then you could then take the output of that to the HDMI in on the TV, but it would not be utilizing your TV tuner.

Thanks Don. Unfortunately, I'm pretty much Ground Zero of the low spot you referred to, right between Havana and Peoria. I have a non-amped 40" boom in my attic. Since the new tower went live, I've spent half an hour up there with my wife telling me "better" and "worse" as I tried different directions. I wonder if the new condo buildings at I-25 and Belleview are causing my problem, because when I moved here a couple years ago (before they went up) I got pretty much all the HD broadcasts.

How can I numerically measure signal strength? My TV just scans for digital signals and says it got it, or not, but doesn't indicate %. What equipment would I need to do that? I definitely want to diagnose this and determine my available options; right now they don't sound good. I wonder if my HOA will pitch a fit if I put a 50-ft mast on my roof... Thanks again for the insights.

Sunshinedawg has some good ideas, but here's a couple of other things to try before investing in all kinds of new equipment.

Signal strength meter: I believe every digital tuner has one. It should be in the tuner's setup menus; check the owner's manual for instructions on how to access the meter. Mine has a scale and a percentage readout; others have "progress bars," usually in increments of 10 percent.

The HOA: If it turns out you need to go out to the roof to get signals, the association cannot prevent you from doing so. The FCC enacted the Over The Air Reception Devices (OTARD) rule nearly 12 years ago, pre-empting HOA prohibitions (though an association can regulate placement and safe installation, within reason). That's why many of your neighbors can have satellite dishes. Why should you be treated any differently simply because your prefer your signals OTA? See www.fcc.gov/mb/facts/otard.html for details. But please note, the rule only covers antenna masts no taller than 12 feet.

Attic antennas can be sketchy. Slate or tile roofs, stucco siding and building materials containing foil backing are all signal killers. Trusses and metal ductwork can cause or exacerbate multipath. Also, at 40 inches, your antenna is kinda small for an attic setup with no pre-amp. Bigger is better when it comes to TV "antlers."

You may be able to add a pre-amp to your current setup. You'll get better results with low-noise models made by either Winegard or Channel Master. The Winegard HDP-269, for example, is highly recommended for suburban situations like ours. You'll have to order a pre-amp online, since no one I know of sells them anywhere in the metro area (Except for Radio Shack, but The Shack doesn't carry these two brands and its pre-amps are hit or miss -- some of their models are very noisy). Pre-amps from the two companies cost anywhere from $40-$80 online.

Posted by Don_M:
But please note, the rule only covers antenna masts no taller than 12 feet.
Here's what the rule says, directly quoted from OTARD:
Masts higher than 12 feet above the roofline may be subject to local permitting requirements for safety purposes.

Here's what the rule says, directly quoted from OTARD:

Thanks for the clarification, Mike. Such are the dangers of quoting something solely from recollection! :D

My Sony TV last year scanned and found a bunch of digital signals now in memory for channel 40-1->12

No signal shows up there - anyone know what may have triggered those channels into memory?

Take a look at this post & the replies Reggie:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13854160#post13854160

Tim

When LM started transmitting my signal strength on most channels went up around 10%. I Finlay had the chance to turn my antenna twards LM this weekend, now when I point at Lookout my antenna is directly centered on my swamp cooler about 1.5 feet away, Great! As it turns out I have excellent reception, I only checked on one TV (I have three connected to the antenna) using the VIP 622 and the RS VU-190 antenna.

93% 2.1
84% 4.1
87% 6.1
96% 7.1
99% 9.1
88% 20.1
92% 31.1

I have never seen anything even remotely close to this and this was the first time I just aimed and had everything. I think our game of inches just turned into a game of yards!

When LM started transmitting my signal strength on most channels went up around 10%. I Finlay had the chance to turn my antenna twards LM this weekend, now when I point at Lookout my antenna is directly centered on my swamp cooler about 1.5 feet away, Great! As it turns out I have excellent reception, I only checked on one TV (I have three connected to the antenna) using the VIP 622 and the RS VU-190 antenna.

93% 2.1
84% 4.1
87% 6.1
96% 7.1
99% 9.1
88% 20.1
92% 31.1

I have never seen anything even remotely close to this and this was the first time I just aimed and had everything. I think our game of inches just turned into a game of yards!

We are also in Longmont, close to 17th and Pace. We have TERK-TV55 and AntennasDirect DB8 installed in our attic.
Signals from Lookout Mountain that are quite clear are:
(34) 2.1 KWGN-DT 95
(17) 7.1 KMGH-DT 58
(19)20.1 KTVD-DT 75
(32)31.1 KDVR-DT 80

(35) 4.1 KCNC-DT I can get through our TiVo or Zenith DTT900, but not our HDTV (Sony KDL40V2500)

From Mount Morrison I can pick up:
(15)14.1 KTFD-DT 70
but not:
(18) 6.1 KRMA-DT 0

I think our TERK-TV55 antenna is bouncing its signal off the High School?

Take a look at this post & the replies Reggie:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13854160#post13854160

Tim

Thanks Tim - missed those postings

For those that are interested, I finally had the opportunity to connect a converter box to my 19" Zenith SDTV. I've been waiting patiently without cable for the Lookout Mountain transition for some time now (as everyone here on the board has too). I'm happy to report that I'm receiving all the stations from the LCG with satisfactory results. At first, ABC was choppy and NBC didn't come in at all, but CBS and channel 20 were picture perfect. With my wife's help, I got up on the roof of our three story condo complex (at the intersection of Alpine Ave and 13th in Boulder) and adjusted the antenna with her on the phone until we received ABC and NBC with a strong signal. I wish I could report the channel strength like other people on this board, but the Zenith converter only offers a bar ranging from Bad to Good.

I receive the following stations satisfactorily with virtually zero pixelation and audio drop out:

2-1
2-2
4-1
6-1
6-2
7-1
9-1
9-2
14-1
20-1
31-1

I just wanted to share this news with everyone because I'm really excited to be getting a fantastic picture. I think at the official transition and conversion to full power the signal bar may go all the way to 'Good.' Or it may be time to go out and buy an HDTV.

Tim

Hello all! I'm new to this forum. Just started delving into OTA about 3 months ago as a possible alternative to cable with great success. After trying several other antennas, I ended up with the highly rated Terk HDTVa. I've seen plenty of reviews for this antenna both good and bad, but for me, it certainly made all the difference. I'm basically getting all available channels in the metro area both analog and digital. Unfortunately, I don't have a signal strength meter, so I can't report on that. Oh, I guess I should mention, I'm in an apartment in Lone Tree (just west of I-25 and Lincoln), so an outdoor antenna was not really an option for me, but this indoor antenna seems to be doing a very good job so far.

Now for the problem: I've been receiving KRMA digital (6-1 & 6-2) for the past couple of months, then the other day, I decided to do a channel scan. This is the first scan that I've done since the new Lookout Mountain tower went live. Is it possible that the new tower is somehow causing my tuner to not pick up KRMA digital, or is this just a coincidence? I've done several channel scans from several different antenna positions, and I just can't seem to get KRMA digital back. Any thoughts?

I also have an issue with KRMA analog. It comes in, but with some sort of interference. I get diagonal lines about an inch apart running across the entire screen. The picture is more or less watchable but the lines are very annoying. This also prevents my VCR and DVD recorder from being able to lock onto the signal for recordings. Can anyone tell me what type of interference this might be i.e. EMI, RFI, adjacent channel, multipath? And more importantly, is there a way to fix it?

Thanks for taking the time to read this. I've learned a lot from this thread already, and I'm sure that will continue. Have a great day!!

I also have an issue with KRMA analog. It comes in, but with some sort of interference. I get diagonal lines about an inch apart running across the entire screen. The picture is more or less watchable but the lines are very annoying. This also prevents my VCR and DVD recorder from being able to lock onto the signal for recordings. Can anyone tell me what type of interference this might be i.e. EMI, RFI, adjacent channel, multipath? And more importantly, is there a way to fix it?

There's an FM station near KRMA's frequency that stomps on it pretty badly if your tuner doesn't have adequate rejection of nearby frequencies; sometimes you can actually hear the audio over KRMA's.

What makes it more entertaining for me is I have two tuners of the same model and they see the interference or not depending on which antenna jack they're connected to in the house!

The FM station in question is technically responsible for providing a notch filter to enable reception of KRMA without interference, but frankly since it will be a moot point nine months from now I never thought it was worth the hassle of figuring out which station it is.

Curiously my newest tuners seem most prone to this; I see the interference on the tuners in my Panasonic DVD recorder and my S3 TiVO, but not on the tuners in my 10+ year old JVC and Panasonic VCRs or my 15 year old Sony TV; perhaps a symptom of cost cutting when it comes to RF rejection.

It also needs to be a specific or tunable notch filter, as a regular FM trap does nothing to solve the issue.

I would have bought one myself, but good ones all run three figures and KRMA has never been worth the hassle to me.

Hello all! I'm new to this forum. Just started delving into OTA about 3 months ago as a possible alternative to cable with great success. After trying several other antennas, I ended up with the highly rated Terk HDTVa. I've seen plenty of reviews for this antenna both good and bad, but for me, it certainly made all the difference. I'm basically getting all available channels in the metro area both analog and digital. Unfortunately, I don't have a signal strength meter, so I can't report on that. Oh, I guess I should mention, I'm in an apartment in Lone Tree (just west of I-25 and Lincoln), so an outdoor antenna was not really an option for me, but this indoor antenna seems to be doing a very good job so far.

Now for the problem: I've been receiving KRMA digital (6-1 & 6-2) for the past couple of months, then the other day, I decided to do a channel scan. This is the first scan that I've done since the new Lookout Mountain tower went live. Is it possible that the new tower is somehow causing my tuner to not pick up KRMA digital, or is this just a coincidence? I've done several channel scans from several different antenna positions, and I just can't seem to get KRMA digital back. Any thoughts?

I also have an issue with KRMA analog. It comes in, but with some sort of interference. I get diagonal lines about an inch apart running across the entire screen. The picture is more or less watchable but the lines are very annoying. This also prevents my VCR and DVD recorder from being able to lock onto the signal for recordings. Can anyone tell me what type of interference this might be i.e. EMI, RFI, adjacent channel, multipath? And more importantly, is there a way to fix it?

Thanks for taking the time to read this. I've learned a lot from this thread already, and I'm sure that will continue. Have a great day!!

Have you tried adding KRMA-DT (real channel 18) back in manually instead with a scan of all available DTV broadcasts? Sometimes scans struggle with signals that aren't very strong.

I'm a little confused about your issue with KRMA analog. I don't understand how a picture with diagonal lines "prevents my VCR and DVD recorder from being able to LOCK onto the signal for recordings". If this is an analog signal, there isn't any LOCK involved. You just get crappy recordings.

Assuming that you are really talking about analog KRMA, the diagonal lines you see are often indicative of one or both of two things. First, the signal you are receiving is over-driven. Are you using any type of signal amplification in the system (e.g., an antenna pre-amp)? If so, try turning it off or turning it down. An in-line RF signal attenuator (6 dB or 10 dB) might help, but usually the best thing is simply to reduce or eliminate the amplification. Second, analog Channel 6 (analog KRMA) is subject to interference from FM radio signals. Best way to deal with that is to install an FM trap in the coax line leading to your TV. Attenuators and FM traps used to be readily available from Rat Shack, but I don't see either at their web site. Check your local Rat Shack store if you decide to pursue either of the foregoing potential fixes.

Good luck.

I was planning to watch the season finale of CSI Miami at 9 PM tonight, but something was amiss with KCNC-DT. Hardly any signal available (bouncing from 0 to 49; need a minimum of 60 to lock). I wonder what was going on. I hope it wasn't a major problem with the new facility and equipment.

The merry-go-round continues on 11-1. It's now showing the KDEV ABC feed, I think from Cheyenne. 11-2 is still showing KBTZ FOX from Montana. Still no sound on 11-2.

Posted by CEB II:
I was planning to watch the season finale of CSI Miami at 9 PM tonight, but something was amiss with KCNC-DT. Hardly any signal available (bouncing from 0 to 49; need a minimum of 60 to lock). I wonder what was going on. I hope it wasn't a major problem with the new facility and equipment.
When my better half switched to KCNC to watch CSI Miami tonight, I noticed the signal strength on my E* ViP222 was 100. I've received a great signal since the move to LM, but it's usually in the low 90's, so I checked it a couple more times during the program. It never fell below 98. So I don't think KCNC was having any problems tonight.

The merry-go-round continues on 11-1. It's now showing the KDEV ABC feed, I think from Cheyenne. 11-2 is still showing KBTZ FOX from Montana. Still no sound on 11-2.

Hmm, I wonder if the issue is something non standard in their protocol (which is causing problems for some peoples ATSC decoders). I did see 11-1 empty for a while, but 11-1 and 11-2 have been working fine for me for the last week or so (including audio on both channels). A friend has said that he doesn't get 11-2 at all on the OTA tuner of his Dish DVR, even though he gets 11-1 just fine, but he does get 11-2 just fine using the same antenna when he uses his Zenith DTT 9900, which is the same converter box I am using.

Note, I am directly in front of their transmitter, probably 2 miles away, but I don't think reception problems can explain a problem with 11-2 if you are getting 11-1 just fine (since the are both encoded within the same transmission).

I was planning to watch the season finale of CSI Miami at 9 PM tonight, but something was amiss with KCNC-DT. Hardly any signal available (bouncing from 0 to 49; need a minimum of 60 to lock). I wonder what was going on. I hope it wasn't a major problem with the new facility and equipment.

I am in northeast Longmont.
(35) 4.1 KCNC-DT [52] has been unreliable reception.
Any reception at all is through TiVo or Zenith DTT900, but not directly on my HDTV???

(16) 9.1 KUSA-DT [0-20] has been 'no show'

(34) 2.1 KWGN-DT 95
(17) 7.1 KMGH-DT 58
(19)20.1 KTVD-DT 75
(32)31.1 KDVR-DT 80
are all clear

Have you tried adding KRMA-DT (real channel 18) back in manually instead with a scan of all available DTV broadcasts? Sometimes scans struggle with signals that aren't very strong.

I'm a little confused about your issue with KRMA analog. I don't understand how a picture with diagonal lines "prevents my VCR and DVD recorder from being able to LOCK onto the signal for recordings". If this is an analog signal, there isn't any LOCK involved. You just get crappy recordings.

Assuming that you are really talking about analog KRMA, the diagonal lines you see are often indicative of one or both of two things. First, the signal you are receiving is over-driven. Are you using any type of signal amplification in the system (e.g., an antenna pre-amp)? If so, try turning it off or turning it down. An in-line RF signal attenuator (6 dB or 10 dB) might help, but usually the best thing is simply to reduce or eliminate the amplification. Second, analog Channel 6 (analog KRMA) is subject to interference from FM radio signals. Best way to deal with that is to install an FM trap in the coax line leading to your TV. Attenuators and FM traps used to be readily available from Rat Shack, but I don't see either at their web site. Check your local Rat Shack store if you decide to pursue either of the foregoing potential fixes.

Good luck.

Thanks for the feedback CEB II. I didn't realize I was using a technical term when I mentioned a lock on the analog signal. What I meant was that the tuners on my DVD recorder and VCR don't handle the KRMA analog signal as well as my HDTV. The DVD recorder only shows a hint of a picture every few seconds, so it's not even watchable. The VCR does better, but the signal sometimes drops halfway through a recording and doesn't come back, so the interference pretty much makes recordings impossible for me.

Yes, I've tried tuning KRMA digital by directly entering 6-1 or 18-1, but my TV just ignores it. I can add analog channels that way, but the only way to add digital channels on my TV is via a channel scan. I guess that's what I get for buying cheap components. Oh well, I might give an FM trap a try. Thanks again!

Has anyone else noticed a audio sync problem with some of the channel 20 (19-1) broadcasts? I don't notice a problem with most programs, but some programs have the audio unsynchronized with the video, which is very distracting.

Posted by CEB II:

When my better half switched to KCNC to watch CSI Miami tonight, I noticed the signal strength on my E* ViP222 was 100. I've received a great signal since the move to LOM, but it's usually in the low 90's, so I checked it a couple more times during the program. It never fell below 98. So I don't think KCNC was having any problems tonight.

Well something changed at KCNC-DT yesterday. My "no lock" situation continued until least midnight (my last check). This morning they are back, but with a signal strength averaging 84 instead of the 90+ they have been since LOM went "hot". It also now takes a while to lock the signal, which previously locked instantly. Maybe they reoriented their antenna after the KUSA-DT guys told them that they were making KUSA-DT look bad in west Arvada (LOL). In any event, their signal to my house has changed and coincidently, immediately after a near total loss of signal for several hours. Certainly not a "leaves on the trees" situation.

Anyone have an email address for the technical folks at KCNC-DT? I'd like to correspond with them regarding this sudden change in, what was previously, my strongest DTV signal.