The merry-go-round continues on 11-1. It's now showing the KDEV ABC feed, I think from Cheyenne. 11-2 is still showing KBTZ FOX from Montana. Still no sound on 11-2.

I'll bet that it has to do with the integrity of the PSIP data -- those guys at Equity Media's much vaunted C.A.S.H. station-management facility (http://www.emdaholdings.com/broadcastservices.html) seem to foul that up consistently. I get very good picture and sound for both sub-channels on my Zenith DTT900 CECB and the HDTV Wonder tuner card in my PC, but my other CECB, an RCA DTA 800B, can't lock the station, even though its signal on the other tuners is quite strong.

The RCA CECB has other problems, of course. Its sensitivity is low compared to the Zenith unit. I can't recommend it for use in Northern Colorado until LOM and other transmission sites go to full power at the transition.


Jim McCauley

A couple of points loosely concerning other recent posts.

I'm in Lafayette, and I watched CSI Miami on 4-1 last night. No issue.
I also tried watching Desperate Housewives on Sunday, but my better half made me switch to analog because the lip-sync was so bad she was freaking out.

I think the KDEV issue is PSIP. I can't get it, so I can't test. I have a 1st gen SIR-T150, and I don't get any audio on 25-1, or on 40-16. The signal strength is high, but I get no audio. I think most later gen units do get audio on at least 25-1, not sure about 40-16 (although I USED to get audio on that one).

I do have my DTV converters, but I haven't tested them for audio issues on these. I guess I'll have to buy a new HD receiver to increase my reliability (and sensitivity) in the next few months if I start to get too annoyed with silent movies :)

A couple of points loosely concerning other recent posts.

I'm in Lafayette, and I watched CSI Miami on 4-1 last night. No issue.
I also tried watching Desperate Housewives on Sunday, but my better half made me switch to analog because the lip-sync was so bad she was freaking out.

I had some blockies during How I Met Your Mother. My receivers show great signal strength and S/N so I'm curious as to the cause of this.

Also, no lipsync issues whatsover during Desperate Housewives for me - I went back and double-checked my S3 TiVO recording. (Isn't "recover deleted program" great?)

Sounds like some error with your ATSC receiver, HDTV or surround processor, whichever applies…

Actually yes, I have a 4228 that I will want to get rid of just as soon as I can get it off the roof.

Do you have a buyer yet, Patrick? I'm in need up here in Fort Collins :-)
If anyone else has a CM-4228, I'm looking, especially if we could meet
in or near Broomfield (work takes me there regularly).

This made me laugh...

http://www.santellaproductions.com/hdcartoon.jpg

This made me laugh...

http://www.santellaproductions.com/hdcartoon.jpg

How right you are!!!

:D :D

For a little over a week now I haven't been able to receive programming on KDEV with my MythTV linux box even though I still have very good signal strength. From reading this forum, it seems that I'm not alone. But, on the other hand, some folks' receivers are still working.

Since some have suggested a PSIP problem, I decided to do a little digging last night. Keeping in mind that I'm no transport stream or PSIP expert, here's what I've found:

The KDEV transport stream doesn't seem to be including the Master Guide Table (MGT). Hacking my way though the MythTV code it appears that it won't process the stream until it finds a valid MGT. Streams that I've captured from all of the other local DTV stations have included an MGT.

My simplistic understanding of what this table is supposed to do is provide enough information for a receiver to find the other tables. Specifically, MythTV needs it to find (by PID) the Terrestrial Virtual Channel Table (TVCT). The TVCT then maps the virtual channel number (such as 11.1) to a 'program number.' Once MythTV has the program number, it looks in the Program Association Table (PAT) to figure out how to find (again by PID) the Program Map Table (PMT) for that program/virtual channel. The PMT finally tells the receiver the PIDs of the elementary streams (MPEG-2 video, AC-3 audio, etc) that make up that program.

Since MythTV isn't finding the MGT, the process doesn't work. I'm guessing that the other receivers that are having troubles probably work in a similar way. I think the PATs and PMTs are pretty close to correct so maybe the receivers that are still working are able to find their way to them even with the MGT missing.

For grins, I looked at the PATs and PMTs in the KDEV stream. Here's what I found:

Program #1 (probably supposed to be channel 11.1) has one video stream and three english AC-3 audio streams. I'm not sure why there are three audio streams nor do I know how a receiver knows which to play. If someone is getting video but no audio, maybe they could see if their receiver has a way to switch to the other streams.

Program #2 (probably supposed to be channel 11.2) has one video stream and one AC-3 audio stream that's identified as Spanish. There's no English stream. Go figure.

I got this information just by poking around in the transport stream. I don't know what's in the audio and video streams, if anything, because MythTV won't play it due to the lack of an MGT.

I stored about 30 seconds of the raw KDEV transport stream to a file. If anyone who is more knowledgeable about this stuff wants to get a look at it, let me know and I'll put it up somewhere.

Better yet, if anyone can get them to put the MGT back in there I can start watching Hawaii Five-O again!

Mike

Mike,

You may want to email your PSIP analysis to: lwithrow@ebcorp.net. This contact is Lori Withrow, Corporate Secretary. You probably won't receive a reply (from my experience) but they may address the situation nevertheless.

Mike,

You may want to email your PSIP analysis to: lwithrow@ebcorp.net. This contact is Lori Withrow, Corporate Secretary. You probably won't receive a reply (from my experience) but they may address the situation nevertheless.
I did that right after I posted it here. I dug the address out of the FCC filings. No reply yet...

Do you have a buyer yet, Patrick? I'm in need up here in Fort Collins :-)
...we could meet in or near Broomfield (work takes me there regularly).


No inquiries yet except yours. I still have yet to get it off my roof, and the next few days look to be stormy, but maybe this weekend? I could easily meet you in Broomfield most days.

FYI, I also have a two year old Channel Master rotor that I won't need .

Looks like RTN is back on 11-1, with sound for me.

Not that their programming is all that important, but anyone know if there's any chance of KRMT ever fixing their PSIP data?

My Zenith DTT900 CECB boxes get them on 40-17 as does my Sony HDTV, but my S3 TiVO just chokes on the whole channel…

I had some blockies during How I Met Your Mother. My receivers show great signal strength and S/N so I'm curious as to the cause of this.

Also, no lipsync issues whatsover during Desperate Housewives for me - I went back and double-checked my S3 TiVO recording. (Isn't "recover deleted program" great?)

Sounds like some error with your ATSC receiver, HDTV or surround processor, whichever applies…

That is really interesting, because I don't typically see bad lip-sync (Didn't see any for CSI Miami).

Any problem at my end is certainly due to the SIR-T150. I'm just running component to my TV, and L-R audio cables (at least I was using the TV speakers during that show). I do run toslink to a receiver for any movies or sports, but my the WAF goes way down with each component being used, so for most primetime, I give up on the surround, and just let the TV do the sound.

My Zenith DTT900 CECB boxes get them on 40-17 as does my Sony HDTV, but my S3 TiVO just chokes on the whole channel…

Perhaps your S3 is a secularist model, and it's trying to get you to ignore DAYSTAR :D


Jim McCauley

Happened to check KCNC-DT this afternoon and discovered my signal strength from them is back to 90, sort of. It does hit 90 frequently, but the strength is bouncing all over the place from 86 to 90 about ever half second on my Dish 811, which still takes a few seconds to lock them in. But, not the 5 to 10 seconds I've been seeing the past couple of days. I'm still convinced they did some adjustment on Monday and perhaps again today. If anyone has an email address for their technical staff, I'd appreciate it.

I also looked again at my weak signal from from KUSA-DT. On the off chance that I could be underestimating the power of the broadcasts from the new tower, I inserted a variable attenuator into the feed of my best ATSC tuner (getting my pre-amp out of the system isn't a simple task, so the attenuator needed to suffice for the test; should be a good test since all signals are very stable on this ATSC tuner). At minimum attenuation all the signal strengths were the same as without the attenuator. At maximum attenuation (20 dB IIRC) I lost a bar or two out of ten on each DTV channel. Stability was the same before and after. I've concluded that I don't have too much signal, but that I do now have less from the LCG tower folks, less KCNC-DT, than I did when they were at RP.

rthurlow - I have a 4228 as well as a CM 7775 preamp that i can sell... PM me if interested - however, it would be easiest if you could make it to downtown one day. I'm at 100 percent signal now after the move (Morrison road and S Indiana) :)

Happened to check KCNC-DT this afternoon and discovered my signal strength from them is back to 90, sort of. It does hit 90 frequently, but the strength is bouncing all over the place from 86 to 90 about ever half second on my Dish 811, which still takes a few seconds to lock them in. But, not the 5 to 10 seconds I've been seeing the past couple of days. I'm still convinced they did some adjustment on Monday and perhaps again today.

Still saw an occasional blocky on them today despite their signal strength being 86/100 on my S3 TiVO.

Did anyone else record TPIR last night or perhaps CSI last week? If you still have the recording I'd like to compare where I saw blockies to try and determine whether it was in the studio/transmitter link or in my reception of KCNC-DT.

No blockies at all on KMGH-DT or KUSA-DT.

Perhaps your S3 is a secularist model, and it's trying to get you to ignore DAYSTAR :D


It's actually that the channel list believes it should be 41-1, which of course it's not, and the tuner won't scan it, either.

It sees a full blast signal from KRMT-DT, but just won't decode it.

It's actually that the channel list believes it should be 41-1, which of course it's not, and the tuner won't scan it, either.

This PSIP flakiness indicates to me that there is some serious lack of training and even professionalism in at least in some segments of the industry. Where the heck is the FCC on this?


Jim McCauley

KCNC-DT is really hard for me to lock this morning on my Dish 811. No problem locking with my other receivers. I'm beginning to think that the change I suspect that KCNC-DT made at the beginning of this week, actually increased my signal. Thus the Dish 811 with its weak ATSC tuner can't handle the increased multi-path signals from my attic antenna.

So why am I thinking this? Yesterday I cashed in my converter box coupons and got a couple of Zenith DTT900s (April manufacture date, so they are supposed to have the audio problem fixed). Hooked up one to the ancient Radio Shack 13" TV we keep in our 2nd floor home office. Using an older RCA variable amp UHF/VHF set top antenna, I discovered that I could actually lock KCNC-DT w/o any amplification. In fact, any amplification more than just turning on the amp, blows away the signal. This antenna is physically very near my attic antenna and maybe 7 feet lower. BTW, I think that the variable amp on that antenna is very noisy. Turning it up to max doesn't get me any additional stations and wipes out all the ones I have. The sweet spot for the amp seems to be at about 1/3 power for all channels except KCNC_DT.

BTW, with the Zenith box and the RCA amplified antenna, I get DTV channels 2, 4, 12, 14, 20, and 31 (20 takes about 1/2 amp for the strongest signal). KUSA-DT, KMGH-DT, and KRMA-DT are missing in action, and that is consistent with the weak signals I get on all my other tuners for them with a much larger and more highly amplified antenna in the attic.

I'm debating whether or not to try a 6 db attenuator on the Dish 811. I think it might fix my KCNC-DT lock problems, but at the expense of maybe totally losing KUSA-DT. Full power DTV can't come soon enough as far as I'm concerned, and I hope the stations don't all try to go with a lower ERP to save money in the future.

It is a known fact that Dish 811's have a PSIP bug in them that only shows with certain PSIP generators. Dish refuses to fix it saying it is a broadcasters issue and not theirs since it works with most station PSIP generators. Already been down this road with Charlie and company in my own market.

BTW, I think that the variable amp on that antenna is very noisy. Turning it up to max doesn't get me any additional stations and wipes out all the ones I have. The sweet spot for the amp seems to be at about 1/3 power for all channels except KCNC_DT.

This is exactly what I have observed with a Leviton variable amp.

[...] got a couple of Zenith DTT900s (April manufacture date, so they are supposed to have the audio problem fixed).

Was there a notice posted about this somewhere?


Jim McCauley

This is exactly what I have observed with a Leviton variable amp.



Was there a notice posted about this somewhere?


Jim McCauley

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=948767&page=48
05-18-08, 07:18 AM #1419 | cia_viewer

Saturday, 17 May, I bought an April 2008 DTT900 (84E01083). The two VCR-TVs I tried it with do not have stereo. The metal box is well ventilated, implying excellent thermal design. The install and setup was easy. It seems to receive all of the DTV signals to reach our antenna system. I could find no way to receive any analog channels (powered on or off).

I phoned the number, provided on the box, (877)993-6484. after giving them the s/n, they assured me that it would not allow any analog channels. They also assured me that the sound problem is fixed in this CECB. They said that the DTT901, which should be available after end of May - beginning of June, would allow analog channels. The ability for me to exchange would be up to the store's policies.

This is exactly what I have observed with a Leviton variable amp.



Was there a notice posted about this somewhere?


Jim McCauley

You can follow the current discussion here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=948767&page=49

Spent the late afternoon yesterday in the attic. Tried various configuration changes with and without attenuation. None improved the situation. Frustrated, I hauled up my Winegard PR-9018 and hooked it up to provide all UHF reception (I have a very effective Winegard UHF/VHF splitter coming off my old, generic, UHF/VHF antenna. Previously ran the UHF split signal out to the CM UHF pre-amp with the pre-amp output recombined with the VHF signal for use downstream. Terminated the UHF split signal out and ran the PR-9018 output to the CM UHF pre-amp with the pre-amp output combined with the VHF signal.).

After some tinkering, all problems are solved. KUSA-DT is now in the mid-80s on my Dish 811 and KCNC-DT locks right in with signal strength in the mid-80s. In fact all of my Dish 811 signals are now in the 80s to 90+ except KRMA-DT, which remains in the mid-70s. It is still a game of inches though. Moving the elevation of the Winegard antenna up or down the mounting pole less than a foot made a difference between having multi-path problems with certain higher powered stations resulting in trouble locking and/or holding a signal, and having good strength and fast lock on all stations.

While I was up there I ran a coax through the ceiling of the closet in the 2nd floor home office from the old CRT TV with the Zenith DTT900 STB to a splitter off the the attic antennas. Now all but the old basement CRT TV are on my attic antenna system. With the Winegard, all of my signals are 9 or 10 out of 10 (except KRMA-DT) on my Samsung LCD and near max on all stations, less KRMA-DT on the Zenith converter box (that Zenith with the 6th generation ATSC tuner is one fine tuner). I do get a strong, lockable signal for KRMA-DT on all ATSC tuners now, but it is the weakest signal that I get, save KWHD-DT from Castle Rock that I get with my XG91 antenna pointed SSE.

CEB II motivated me to do a little work on my antenna system.

I have a Radio Shack U-75R (UHF only) antenna and an old Radio Shack suburban combination VHF/UHF/FM antenna mounted in the attic. They feed into a combiner (A cheap passive splitter used back wards) and then into a Channel Master 7777 preamp. The combination antenna is attached to a rafter and points about due south. The UHF antenna is mounted on an hinge so I can swing it about 30 degrees either side of South. I had it pointed just east of South. The arrangement has worked fairly well. I did not have to do anything when LCG moved from RP to LM.

For quite a while, I have had a problem with KRMA Analog. On 2 TVs it was somewhat snowy, and the 3rd often lost sound. I have a Philips DVDR3575 and a DVDR3576 (ATSC/NTSC tuner equipped DVD recorders). Both could not get KRMA analog at all. When I tuned them to 6, I would see an image for about a second, and then get a blue screen. I was originally thinking it was a weak signal, but then I saw that according to TVfool, KRMA analog should be very strong. When I removed power from the pre-amp, I got a very snowy picture on the recorders. That actually gave me hope. I went in the attic, and switched on the FM filter in the Channel Master 7777 preamp. That did not fix the recorders, but the nearest snowy TV improved. I had an old Radio Shack FM trap unit lying around, and I installed it on the input to the pre-amp. That seems to have gotten me over the hump. The TV pictures are now watchable, and the DVD recorders are able to get 6 OK. My family room VCR was able to set date and time from PBS for the first time in a long while.

I guess that what I thought was a weak KRMA signal was actually interference from an FM station. I suspect that the interference signal was pulling the AFC off of the KRMA carrier frequency.

Right now I am a fairly happy camper. I swung the UHF antenna a bit west of South, and the last time I checked KRMA-DT and KBDI-DT were both looking quite good. All the digital stations on Lookout Mountain are also coming in fine.

Kenavs,

The CM7777 can be configured for separate VHF and UHF inputs. You can remove the combiner (splitter) and attach the combo antenna to the VHF input and the UHF antenna to the UHF input. That would help signal quality.

Kenavs,

The CM7777 can be configured for separate VHF and UHF inputs. You can remove the combiner (splitter) and attach the combo antenna to the VHF input and the UHF antenna to the UHF input. That would help signal quality.
Some time ago, I tried setting the CM 7777 for separate inputs, connecting the combo antenna to the VHF input, and connecting the UHF antenna to the UHF input. That did not work as well for me as setting it for a single input and using the combiner.

I suspect that the combo antenna was the issue. Since the inputs on the CM 7777 are designated by antenna type, as opposed to first and second, I suspect that there is different circuitry behind the inputs. If that is the case, those circuits could introduce different phase shifts in the UHF signals picked up from the different antennas before the signals are combined. I would think that would act like multi-path interference to the tuner.

One more thing: When I first installed the FM trap, I put it on the combiner input fed from the combo antenna. That got rid of my KRMA 6 analog problems, but it knocked out KRMA-DT. For those who don't know, KRMA-DT reception is a very delicate issue in Louisville. When I put the splitter on the input to the pre-amp, all was well. I should have anticipated the problem since band rejection filters do introduce phase shift. I believe it is important when combining antenna signals to keep everthing going to the combiner as identical as possible. In my case, the antenna cables between the antennas and the combiner are both 6ft RG6 cables from the same manufacturer.

Some time ago, I tried setting the CM 7777 for separate inputs, connecting the combo antenna to the VHF input, and connecting the UHF antenna to the UHF input. That did not work as well for me as setting it for a single input and using the combiner.

I suspect that the combo antenna was the issue. Since the inputs on the CM 7777 are designated by antenna type, as opposed to first and second, I suspect that there is different circuitry behind the inputs. If that is the case, those circuits could introduce different phase shifts in the UHF signals picked up from the different antennas before the signals are combined. I would think that would act like multi-path interference to the tuner.

One more thing: When I first installed the FM trap, I put it on the combiner input fed from the combo antenna. That got rid of my KRMA 6 analog problems, but it knocked out KRMA-DT. For those who don't know, KRMA-DT reception is a very delicate issue in Louisville. When I put the splitter on the input to the pre-amp, all was well. I should have anticipated the problem since band rejection filters do introduce phase shift. I believe it is important when combining antenna signals to keep everthing going to the combiner as identical as possible. In my case, the antenna cables between the antennas and the combiner are both 6ft RG6 cables from the same manufacturer.

To use the two antennas with CM7777 set up for separate inputs, you do need to deal with the UHF signal coming off of the combo antenna and the problems it can cause. That is essentially the set up I currently have, except I don't need a pre-amp on my VHF signals, so I'm using the CM7775 (UHF only) pre-amp. Since the the combo antenna has a UHF component and so does the UHF antenna, you are destined to get multi-path problems. The trick is to split out the UHF signal from the combo antenna and send it nowhere. I use a Winegard VHF/UHF band separator (CS-7750), which now seems to be in limited availability. However, Winegard has recently again listed it on its web site. There is at least one other VHF/UHF band separator that I've seen on the web, but I can't recall the brand or web site.

Anyway, taking the signal from the combo antenna and running it through the band separator (using the separator as a trap rather than as a combiner) gives you a pretty clean VHF signal that you can run to the VHF input on the CM7777 (since I don't amplify my VHF signal, I run the CS-7750's VHF output straight to a VHF/UHF combiner that only passes DC on UHF. The output of that combiner goes to the TVs). I take the UHF signal split off the CS-7750 band separator out on 6" of coax to an attenuator with a 75 ohm terminator at the output end. That's probably overkill, but I want to make sure that the UHF output doesn't interfere in any way with my antenna complex and its output. Then just take the signal from the UHF antenna and run it into the UHF input on the CM7777. This should eliminate any UHF phase issues and limit multi-path issues to those caused by reflected signals in residential areas and in your attic. Take the separate UHF and VHF amplified signal outputs from the CM7777 and run them into a hybrid splitter/combiner (I use the gold ones from Rat Shack with no problems). The advantage of using the separate UHF and VHF inputs on the CM pre-amp is that the CM pre-amp has filter circuitry within that further strips out any signals on the UHF and VHF sides that aren't UHF or VHF respectively. That gives you nice, clean, amplified UHF and VHF signals to combine and use on your TVs. BTW, be sure to put the FM trap before the pre-amp, else you will trying to trap amplified FM signals, which is a lot tougher.

There is at least one other VHF/UHF band separator that I've seen on the web, but I can't recall the brand or web site.

Pico Macom UVSJ, $3.99 plus shipping from Solid Signal, and elsewhere online. Has nearly invisible 0.5 dB insertion loss, and it's less expensive than the Winegard coupler/separator.

To use the two antennas with CM7777 set up for separate inputs, you do need to deal with the UHF signal coming off of the combo antenna and the problems it can cause. That is essentially the set up I currently have, except I don't need a pre-amp on my VHF signals, so I'm using the CM7775 (UHF only) pre-amp. Since the the combo antenna has a UHF component and so does the UHF antenna, you are destined to get multi-path problems. The trick is to split out the UHF signal from the combo antenna and send it nowhere. I use a Winegard VHF/UHF band separator (CS-7750), which now seems to be in limited availability. However, Winegard has recently again listed it on its web site. There is at least one other VHF/UHF band separator that I've seen on the web, but I can't recall the brand or web site.

Anyway, taking the signal from the combo antenna and running it through the band separator (using the separator as a trap rather than as a combiner) gives you a pretty clean VHF signal that you can run to the VHF input on the CM7777 (since I don't amplify my VHF signal, I run the CS-7750's VHF output straight to a VHF/UHF combiner that only passes DC on UHF. The output of that combiner goes to the TVs). I take the UHF signal split off the CS-7750 band separator out on 6" of coax to an attenuator with a 75 ohm terminator at the output end. That's probably overkill, but I want to make sure that the UHF output doesn't interfere in any way with my antenna complex and its output. Then just take the signal from the UHF antenna and run it into the UHF input on the CM7777. This should eliminate any UHF phase issues and limit multi-path issues to those caused by reflected signals in residential areas and in your attic. Take the separate UHF and VHF amplified signal outputs from the CM7777 and run them into a hybrid splitter/combiner (I use the gold ones from Rat Shack with no problems). The advantage of using the separate UHF and VHF inputs on the CM pre-amp is that the CM pre-amp has filter circuitry within that further strips out any signals on the UHF and VHF sides that aren't UHF or VHF respectively. That gives you nice, clean, amplified UHF and VHF signals to combine and use on your TVs. BTW, be sure to put the FM trap before the pre-amp, else you will trying to trap amplified FM signals, which is a lot tougher.

Just for the record, I have no plans at this time to change my arrangement since my reported tweaks. As I stated, the FM trap is on the input to the pre-amp. Apparently, the UHF elements on my antennas are well enough matched that they do not interfere with each other. They actually appear to add postively. The latest realignment of the UHF only antenna seems to have given me solid 12 digital.
I get Digital 2,4,7,9,12,20,31,53 solid. I have seen a brief period of some breakup on digital 6, but KRMA-DT is a big problem for most of Louisville, Lafayette, and Longmont. Analog 6,12, and 59 are solid. 39-LP is pretty snowy, but that is not surprising. I get lots of other stations fine, but I have skipped over them because they are either analog duplicates, I get better on digital, or I have no interest in the content. If 12 digital stays as solid as it has been, I will be skipping over 12 analog soon.

Just for the record, I have no plans at this time to change my arrangement since my reported tweaks. As I stated, the FM trap is on the input to the pre-amp. Apparently, the UHF elements on my antennas are well enough matched that they do not interfere with each other. They actually appear to add postively. The latest realignment of the UHF only antenna seems to have given me solid 12 digital.
I get Digital 2,4,7,9,12,20,31,53 solid. I have seen a brief period of some breakup on digital 6, but KRMA-DT is a big problem for most of Louisville, Lafayette, and Longmont. Analog 6,12, and 59 are solid. 39-LP is pretty snowy, but that is not surprising. I get lots of other stations fine, but I have skipped over them because they are either analog duplicates, I get better on digital, or I have no interest in the content. If 12 digital stays as solid as it has been, I will be skipping over 12 analog soon.

Sorry I missed your placement of the FM trap, it was late and I was tired.

Yes, it is possible that you are currently getting an additive effect mixing the two UHF antenna signals, but be aware it is a fragile configuration and you are lucky. Over the past four years I've had that happen once when I wasn't trying too hard and I've had signal conflicts on several occasions when I was trying hard to combine the UHF of two different antennas. There is all sorts of stuff about matching resistances from the two antennas (i.e., identical baluns, exactly the same wire and wire length, exactly the same connectors, sufficient distance between the antennas), but it is still hit or miss and changing external factors (e.g., leaves or no leaves on trees) can alter the final results. If you start seeing a drop in signal, wildly fluctuating signals, or problems quickly locking DTV signals, consider using the separate inputs on your pre-amp and terminating the UHF output of your combo antenna. Just trying to help.

Sorry I missed your placement of the FM trap, ...

consider using the separate inputs on your pre-amp and terminating the UHF output of your combo antenna. Just trying to help.

I have a Terk TV55 and a Terrestrial Digital DB8 in our attic. The TV55 plugs into The VHF side of a Holland UVSJ VHF/UHF Signal Splitter / Combiner and the DB8 plugs into the UHF side. The Line is connected to a 'homerun' amplifier ( OnQ 3x8 Video Module, Part Number: 363469-02) in the basement.

I might have another RG6 cable in the attic (for dish?). If so, would separate cables for each antenna to the 'homerun' amplifier be a far better combiner?

Just got time to watch the season finale of Smallville. What a joke 2-1 is, the finale was shown as 16:9 matted on to a SD 4:3 screen. This is to go along with a subchannel that has been showing that stupid screen about the tube channel no longer being available, what a waste of bandwith. Just checked last Thurs episode of Smallville, it has the same matted picture. Good job 2-1. :mad:

KWGN2 lost their VP of Engineering, Don Rooney recently. He left for another job. Not sure who's running the ship there these days. Don was a great guy. Many of us knew him from the public tower meetings.

I have a Terk TV55 and a Terrestrial Digital DB8 in our attic. The TV55 plugs into The VHF side of a Holland UVSJ VHF/UHF Signal Splitter / Combiner and the DB8 plugs into the UHF side. The Line is connected to a 'homerun' amplifier ( OnQ 3x8 Video Module, Part Number: 363469-02) in the basement.

I might have another RG6 cable in the attic (for dish?). If so, would separate cables for each antenna to the 'homerun' amplifier be a far better combiner?

First, I'm going to assume that you intend to use the VHF, but not the UHF off of the Terk antenna. If there is some UHF off the Terk that you want to use, then you may already be affecting those signals with your current setup.

Since I can't find much technical detail on line regarding the Holland splitter/combiner or the OnQ Video Video Module, I'll qualify my answer. Since the OnQ looks like a distribution amp that merely amplifies all outputs to match the signal level of the input, and it doesn't appear to have any particularly significant filtering or combining capabilities, and the Holland Splitter/Combiner may have the same filtering capabilities as the Winegard or Pico Macom previously discussed in this thread, I think you have the best arrangement possible for your equipment. The key is the capability of the Holland. If it filters the VHF/UHF signal from the Terk leaving only the VHF to combine with a filtered UHF signal from the DB8 (DB8s, like most bay antennas do a pretty good job of picking up high VHF signals, that you don't want) like the Winegard or Pico Macom would do, then you should have a pretty clean, combined output signal to use in your distribution amp.

Belt and suspenders. If your UHF and/or VHF signals aren't all that you think they should be (i.e., ghosts on analog channels; bouncing signals, long waits for lock, lower signal strength (on the higher powered channels like 2, 4, 20, or 31) on UHF channels), then buy a couple of the cheap Pico Macom splitter/combiners and insert them (as noted they are low insertion loss devices) in the outputs of your two antennas. Send the split VHF signal from the Terk to the Holland and terminate the UHF output signal. Send the split UHF signal from the DB8 to the Holland and terminate the VHF output signal. This would give you really clean VHF/UHF signals to combine in the Holland and use in the OnQ distribution amp, but this may also be overkill and unnecessary. If you are happy with your current analog and digital outputs as seen on your TVs, then leave well enough alone. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

First, I'm going to assume that you intend to use the VHF, but not the UHF off of the Terk antenna. If there is some UHF off the Terk that you want to use, then you may already be affecting those signals with your current setup.

Since I can't find much technical detail on line regarding the Holland splitter/combiner or the OnQ Video Video Module, I'll qualify my answer. Since the OnQ looks like a distribution amp that merely amplifies all outputs to match the signal level of the input, and it doesn't appear to have any particularly significant filtering or combining capabilities, and the Holland Splitter/Combiner may have the same filtering capabilities as the Winegard or Pico Macom previously discussed in this thread, I think you have the best arrangement possible for your equipment. The key is the capability of the Holland. If it filters the VHF/UHF signal from the Terk leaving only the VHF to combine with a filtered UHF signal from the DB8 (DB8s, like most bay antennas do a pretty good job of picking up high VHF signals, that you don't want) like the Winegard or Pico Macom would do, then you should have a pretty clean, combined output signal to use in your distribution amp.

Belt and suspenders. If your UHF and/or VHF signals aren't all that you think they should be (i.e., ghosts on analog channels; bouncing signals, long waits for lock, lower signal strength (on the higher powered channels like 2, 4, 20, or 31) on UHF channels), then buy a couple of the cheap Pico Macom splitter/combiners and insert them (as noted they are low insertion loss devices) in the outputs of your two antennas. Send the split VHF signal from the Terk to the Holland and terminate the UHF output signal. Send the split UHF signal from the DB8 to the Holland and terminate the VHF output signal. This would give you really clean VHF/UHF signals to combine in the Holland and use in the OnQ distribution amp, but this may also be overkill and unnecessary. If you are happy with your current analog and digital outputs as seen on your TVs, then leave well enough alone. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Thank you for your response.

The splitter/joiner was ordered as the Pico Macom UVSJ UHF VHF Band Separator/Combiner. It just says 'Holland' on the sticker (the same item discussed earlier). I have not, as yet, bought 2 more UVSJs to be ganged.

I think my DB8 is aimed at 191 (My Boy Scout compass gets confused with all of the iron antenna parts)
I can pick up everything but PBS:

(34) 2.1 KWGN-DT 100
(35) 4.1 KCNC-DT 90
(17) 7.1 KMGH-DT 99
(16) 9.1 KUSA-DT 81
(19)20.1 KTVD-DT 100
(32)31.1 KDVR-DT 99
Signals from Lookout Mountain are all clear (at 196)

From Mount Morrison (at 182) I can pick up:
(15)14.1 KTFD-DT 96
but not:
(18) 6.1 KRMA-DT 0

The signal from Squaw Mountain (at 203) does not get here:
(38)12.1 KBDI-DTV 0-35

I discovered this board yesterday and I have a similar problem. I have a Pan PX4250U TV, and a RS VU-90 mounted on a 5 ft mast on my chimney on the high end of a tri-level house (about 20+ft above ground). I bought the antenna on Sunday the LOM tower went live. I had cheapo cable with HD @ $25 mo and was waiting to get rid of the cable card. I'm using the cable that runs into the house from the grounding connector. From the connector, I can reach my antenna with a 25 ft RG-6 cable. I disconnected the cable from the wall outlet and pulled the extra to reach a plug I installed in a closet to power the TV/Home theater. I'm using the plug in the wall Monster surge 200 and the output was fed to the TV using a 3 ft RG-59 cable.
I got signal from 2, 4, 7, 9, 11, 12, 20, 31. I'm omitting the ones I don't care about. 9 was the lowest @ 75%. 7 was 88, 4 was 92, and 2 was 96.

About a week ago 9 went away. I brought it in on the analog 9 when the 9-1 and 9-2 failed. I replaced the RG-59 cable to the TV with a 10 ft RG-6 and got the 9 signal up to 88 on the meter, but all I still get on 9-1, 9-2 and also sometimes 11-1, 11-2 is "Poor signal quality.":(

I've been able to get an HD signal on 4 even with a signal in the 50's (with the antenna sitting on the roof), so I know 88 should get me a great 9 signal.

I've wondered if an amplifier/splitter would help. I did install a cheapo 2 way splitter so I could hook up FM on the Denon 5.1 receiver. Of course, that dropped my signal on all channels, but it hasn't affected the picture losing a few dbs. But I thought since I want the FM (mostly KCBO), I'm willing to spend a few bucks. The Pana is the only TV we own. I have a nice stereo in another room that only plays CDs, so I only need the 2-way splitter down in the lower level TV room. For my situation, should I buy a better one or will the $20 variety do?

I believe the amp/splitter is a different issue from my 9 woes. I've read all the posts on this topic, and can't figure out why my signal meter is strong, but I still get the message with no signal. Do I really need a better antenna. Based on antenna web and TV Fool, all the signals should be in the green zone if I remember correctly. But I do recall several posts talking about this interim period we're in. Does this mean, the signals we have are fixed until Feb 09?
Nineless in Loveland

I discovered this board yesterday and I have a similar problem. I have a Pan PX4250U TV, and a RS VU-90 mounted on a 5 ft mast on my chimney on the high end of a tri-level house (about 20+ft above ground). I bought the antenna on Sunday the LOM tower went live. I had cheapo cable with HD @ $25 mo and was waiting to get rid of the cable card. I'm using the cable that runs into the house from the grounding connector. From the connector, I can reach my antenna with a 25 ft RG-6 cable. I disconnected the cable from the wall outlet and pulled the extra to reach a plug I installed in a closet to power the TV/Home theater. I'm using the plug in the wall Monster surge 200 and the output was fed to the TV using a 3 ft RG-59 cable.
I got signal from 2, 4, 7, 9, 11, 12, 20, 31. I'm omitting the ones I don't care about. 9 was the lowest @ 75%. 7 was 88, 4 was 92, and 2 was 96.

About a week ago 9 went away. I brought it in on the analog 9 when the 9-1 and 9-2 failed. I replaced the RG-59 cable to the TV with a 10 ft RG-6 and got the 9 signal up to 88 on the meter, but all I still get on 9-1, 9-2 and also sometimes 11-1, 11-2 is "Poor signal quality.":(

I've been able to get an HD signal on 4 even with a signal in the 50's (with the antenna sitting on the roof), so I know 88 should get me a great 9 signal.

I've wondered if an amplifier/splitter would help. I did install a cheapo 2 way splitter so I could hook up FM on the Denon 5.1 receiver. Of course, that dropped my signal on all channels, but it hasn't affected the picture losing a few dbs. But I thought since I want the FM (mostly KCBO), I'm willing to spend a few bucks. The Pana is the only TV we own. I have a nice stereo in another room that only plays CDs, so I only need the 2-way splitter down in the lower level TV room. For my situation, should I buy a better one or will the $20 variety do?

I believe the amp/splitter is a different issue from my 9 woes. I've read all the posts on this topic, and can't figure out why my signal meter is strong, but I still get the message with no signal. Do I really need a better antenna. Based on antenna web and TV Fool, all the signals should be in the green zone if I remember correctly. But I do recall several posts talking about this interim period we're in. Does this mean, the signals we have are fixed until Feb 09?
Nineless in Loveland

You may also want to look at this forum: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=199726&pp=20&page=49

I have trouble with 9 digital too. I only have a attic antenna with a amplifier but hope to play with the aiming (limited due to rafters) now that everything is moved to Lookout mountain. I now get channel four digital which I never did when the antennas were at the Republic Building. I get Channel 9 when the weather is overcast like today.

Thank you for your response.

The splitter/joiner was ordered as the Pico Macom UVSJ UHF VHF Band Separator/Combiner. It just says 'Holland' on the sticker (the same item discussed earlier). I have not, as yet, bought 2 more UVSJs to be ganged.

I think my DB8 is aimed at 191 (My Boy Scout compass gets confused with all of the iron antenna parts)
I can pick up everything but PBS:

(34) 2.1 KWGN-DT 100
(35) 4.1 KCNC-DT 90
(17) 7.1 KMGH-DT 99
(16) 9.1 KUSA-DT 81
(19)20.1 KTVD-DT 100
(32)31.1 KDVR-DT 99
Signals from Lookout Mountain are all clear (at 196)

From Mount Morrison (at 182) I can pick up:
(15)14.1 KTFD-DT 96
but not:
(18) 6.1 KRMA-DT 0

The signal from Squaw Mountain (at 203) does not get here:
(38)12.1 KBDI-DTV 0-35

I don't know how far you are from LOM or the elevation above ground of your DB8 antenna, but the DB8 has a relatively narrow beamwidth compared to a Yagi type antenna. That may explain why you can't get Channel 38 from Squaw Mountain. Also, I think that some good elevation above ground (e.g., 30 feet) is needed to see the KRMA-DT signal. The earlier DB-8 models also had a significant drop off in gain below Channel 18. That, coupled with the current crappy signal from KUSA-DT on LOM, may explain the lower than average reading for KUSA-DT.

Have you gone on TVFool and looked at what your reception potential should be? Last I checked it wasn't updated for the current LOM broadcasts, but it does show the current output of 2-1, 6-1, 12-1, and 31-1 accurately.

Is anyone having reception issues on 9-1 for tonight's hockey game? The video a little jerky. Oddly, it looks like it's dropping frames or running about 22 or 23 fps.

DirecTV HD looks fine.

I don't know how far you are from LOM or the elevation above ground of your DB8 antenna, but the DB8 has a relatively narrow beamwidth compared to a Yagi type antenna. That may explain why you can't get Channel 38 from Squaw Mountain. Also, I think that some good elevation above ground (e.g., 30 feet) is needed to see the KRMA-DT signal. The earlier DB-8 models also had a significant drop off in gain below Channel 18. That, coupled with the current crappy signal from KUSA-DT on LOM, may explain the lower than average reading for KUSA-DT.

Have you gone on TVFool and looked at what your reception potential should be? Last I checked it wasn't updated for the current LOM broadcasts, but it does show the current output of 2-1, 6-1, 12-1, and 31-1 accurately.
I am reasonably certain that if you draw a horizontal line from the KRMA-DT antenna on a line toward Louisville, you run smack into the KPXC transmitter building. If I wanted LOS to the antenna, I believe I would have to get my antenna higher than the top of the KPXC building. That would be a lot more than 30 feet - actually I think it would require several thousand feet to get LOS.
As I understand it, the coverage calculations consider land only. They do not take into account the buildings. I think it is rather silly to ignore a building so close to their transmitter, but the FCC approved calculation methods seem to do it. I am sure, if they were honest, they would admit that they cannot see most of Louisville, Superior, Longmont and Lafayette from their antenna. I would be willing to wager that they see the KPXC building when they look towards those cities, and the horizon is blocked by it.

zimdba, I also had some problems with KUSA tonight with the hockey game. My signal strength kept fluctuating between 60/61 and my "normal" 89/90. It only happened during the second period.

From the posts from several of you up north since around the first of the year, it seems that the KXPC building is being blamed for poor/non-reception of KRMA. I'm no expert, as most of us are not, but it doesn't make sense to me that a building alone is responsible for poor/non-reception. After all, many of us have antennas in the attic which would seem to cause the same attenuation of the signal as a building near the transmitter? Perhaps the combination of both is a killer? Probably not, standing alone.

According to FCC info, KRMA has a .550 relative field value of its 115 kW ERP in the direction of Louisville, Longmont, etc. (10 degrees off north from the transmitter). The ERP sent is .550 x .550 x 115 ERP = 34.79 kW in that direction. That's pretty measly.

KRMA is about my weakest signal, usually registering about 75/76 on my Dish receiver. I'm located about 110 to 120 degrees off of the transmitter site. My signal strength is, per the relative field values (I'm interpolating) .870 x .870 x 115 kW = 87.05 kW, more than double the 10 degree directional power and yet I still have a "relatively" low signal strength.

I suggest that the problem with KRMA is not KXPC's building, standing alone, but instead is their pathetic directional signal sent north of their transmitter. So the question to raise to KRMA is not 115 kW max power nor its transmitter ice bridge location, but why is such a weak signal sent north? Can't they increase the strength of the signal towards the north? Combining a pathetic signal strength towards the north, along with attenuation of the signal by KXPC's building, leaves on trees, and roofs of attic antenna's, I have to believe that there is very little signal left that hits antennas. I guess the folks who installed the antenna on the ice bridge saw KXPC's building at eye level. For KRMA not to recognize the combination of the low antenna placement on the ice bridge, the KXPC building, and low ERP sent out north is inexcusable. Sounds like equivalent intelligence of 10 watts going thru the 100 watt bulb, rather dim?

This is my first time here and I hope that I am in the right forum to discuss this.

This is concerning the digital signals of KMGH and KDVR. I have noticed a certain problem with these channels and I don't know if anyone else has had this issue. First of
all, my TV is an Insignia, and I have a 4:3 screen ratio. It seems like when I put on zoom on these channels, like for watching Jeopardy or the Simpsons, the picture seems to be off to the left and from what I have to work with, I can't fix the problem. All the other channels don't have this problem. Does anyone know a solution for this issue?

What's up with Channel 7 KMGH switching to a 4:3 broadcast of the LOST season finale a quarter of the way through the show? :(

What's up with Channel 7 KMGH switching to a 4:3 broadcast of the LOST season finale a quarter of the way through the show? :(

I don't know, but it really sucks. They screwed it up and theres like 5 minutes missing as well. I stopped it, I will find another source.

I've since been able to confirm that at least in my case, the FM station stomping on and causing major visual interference with KRMA analog is KGNU, 88.5 FM.

I've since been able to confirm that at least in my case, the FM station stomping on and causing major visual interference with KRMA analog is KGNU, 88.5 FM.Careful, you're starting to sound like a sCARE member. ;)

I've since been able to confirm that at least in my case, the FM station stomping on and causing major visual interference with KRMA analog is KGNU, 88.5 FM.
The KGNU transmitter is located in Louisville next to the reservoir, just north of S. Boulder Rd between McCaslin and Via Appia. It's not terribly surprising that they're causing you some TV-6 difficulties since they are practically in your backyard and only 500 kHz away.

KGNU has an application to increase their power to 4 kW from their current 1.3 kW. In doing so they've secured a letter of consent from KRMA based on KGNU's commitment to "take any necessary steps to correct any interference to the KRMA facilities on Channel 6 through the end of the transition to digital in February 2009."

You might contact KGNU and see if they will provide you a notch filter. Once they up their power they may be obligated to do so. Not sure about now, though. If they refuse, KRMA might be able to apply some pressure since KGNU needs their cooperation for the upgrade.

The KGNU transmitter is located in Louisville next to the reservoir, just north of S. Boulder Rd between McCaslin and Via Appia. It's not terribly surprising that they're causing you some TV-6 difficulties since they are practically in your backyard and only 500 kHz away.

KGNU has an application to increase their power to 4 kW from their current 1.3 kW. In doing so they've secured a letter of consent from KRMA based on KGNU's commitment to "take any necessary steps to correct any interference to the KRMA facilities on Channel 6 through the end of the transition to digital in February 2009."

You might contact KGNU and see if they will provide you a notch filter. Once they up their power they may be obligated to do so. Not sure about now, though. If they refuse, KRMA might be able to apply some pressure since KGNU needs their cooperation for the upgrade.
Here's the KGNU/KRMA letter:

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/getattachment_exh.cgi?exhibit_id=633309

Mike

So an FM station causes problems with TV on channel six. Test measurements show the FM station is operating in compliance with the appropriate FCC technical standards. Is that FM station legally causing interference? It looks to me more a problem of poor TV receiver design.

--- CHAS

So an FM station causes problems with TV on channel six. Test measurements show the FM station is operating in compliance with the appropriate FCC technical standards. Is that FM station legally causing interference? It looks to me more a problem of poor TV receiver design.

--- CHAS

FM stations are known to cause problems to channel 6, and there are strict FCC regulations regarding it. See 47CFR73.525 and 47CFR73.825. If an FM station shows up after a channel 6 and causes interference, they're required to supply filters to people who experience problems from it.

- Trip

So an FM station causes problems with TV on channel six. Test measurements show the FM station is operating in compliance with the appropriate FCC technical standards. Is that FM station legally causing interference? It looks to me more a problem of poor TV receiver design.

I have no doubt that that is, in fact, true, but the FCC also states that the broadcasters have to work to resolve that interference if possible.

Thus I suspect someone - KRMA or KGNU - should be providing those so affected with a notch filter if they need one.

Whether that's actually the case or not remains to be seen, especially since the problem goes away for good in February. :D

I have no doubt that that is, in fact, true, but the FCC also states that the broadcasters have to work to resolve that interference if possible.

Thus I suspect someone - KRMA or KGNU - should be providing those so affected with a notch filter if they need one.

Whether that's actually the case or not remains to be seen, especially since the problem goes away for good in February. :D

I just saw the folloing at the KGNU website:
http://www.kgnu.org/ht/helpfm.html#interference
Dealing with intereference from our FM signal

Premise.
KGNU broadcasts legally as authorized by the FCC. Any interference to your equipment from KGNU is your responsibility, not KGNU's. However, as a gesture of good will, KGNU may help you mitigate such interference to your equipment.

The frequency of 88.5 MHz is adjacent to the frequency of the audio of TV channel 6. Normally, this is not a problem. However, in the '70s, TV sets were manufactured with reduced selectivity (the ability to reject undesired signals near the desired one). Boulder is one of the few areas in the country where the FCC allowed both a radio station at 88.5 MHz (KGNU) and a TV station on channel 6 (KRMA). In the '70s many KRMA viewers using new TV receivers, in outlying areas, received interference from KGNU. As a solution, KRMA installed a translator in Boulder on Channel 11, and KGNU reduced its power from 3500 W to 1300 W. In addition, KGNU offered filters to KRMA viewers who requested them.
Today, the issue is pretty much gone, thanks to better TV receivers, the KRMA translator, and people's use of cable TV.

Should you experiece interference from KGNU while tuned to KRMA Channel 6, please install an "FM trap" filter, available from Radio Shack.

I guess they claim its our problem.

I just saw the folloing at the KGNU website:
http://www.kgnu.org/ht/helpfm.html#interference

I guess they claim its our problem.

Is there a trouble maker out there? Cite 47CFR73.525 and 47CFR73.825, tell them they are not in compliance and see how they spin it. If they ignore you, hire Trip in VA to file a complaint with the FCC.

--- CHAS

They may be in compliance with those rules and still be causing interference. I never specifically implied they're out of compliance and I haven't actually read the regulations I pointed to, I just know that they specifically cover channel 6 receiving interference from FM signals, and was just making the point that it can happen. (Since most stations will leave channel 6 with the digital transition, I've never felt the need to read that regulation) Especially given the weakness of some of the signal from Lookout and Morrison, some may have amps and high-gain antennas, and without a good FM trap, the signal can easily get very, very out of hand. And a lot of FM traps can't isolate channel 6 (87.75 MHz) from something on 88.5, for instance, without killing the signal on the channel 6 as well, so that's not a really good solution either.

If you're especially close to a transmitter, signal can trash the whole band, regardless of what the frequency of the signal is.

- Trip

I have a Sony KDL-52XBR4 LCD TV that freezes and then reboots (power off and on) if I tune to channel 20.1. If left on this channel, the TV would constantly freeze and then reboots. All other digital channels work fine. I am using a Winegard Sensar II amplified antenna. My other Sony KDF-E50A10 rear projection TV works fine using the same antenna feed.

I have tried posting this in the Official Sony XBR4/5 Owners Thread and received no replies. Does anyone have a theory as to what may be causing the problem? Could it be something with the broadcast signal? My assumption is that it is a bug in the TV's firmware.

I have already opened a service request with Sony and have not received a resolution yet.

I have the same set and I am watching 20-1 right now with a Radio Shack yagi with no issues.

I noticed a few minutes ago that I am seeing distant channel "skip" on analog 2. Could a distant low band VHF digital channel's "skip" screw up a local channel such a 20-1 if it was mapping to that virtual channel?

Phil T,

No they are channel remapped, and not related to VHF low band E-skips to UHF 20.1.

Analog channel 2 is your local KWGN-TV CW and the remapped channel is not the same but the station is you are watching is KTVD-DT channel 20.1.:) "Remapped channel"

Since I am not in Denver TV market, so I am not sure where KWGN-DT is in UHF digital channel is.

73's from almost next door neighbor TV market in Albuquerque, NM!!:D

5-31-08

Channel 2 (KWGN-TV CW on Low VHF band) is 54 to 60 MHZ
Channel 19 (which is the actual channel that 20-1 KTVD-DT transmits on) is
501.25 Mhz. Interference from skip on channel 2 is highly unlikely. If it was strong enough to do that it would be wiping out rvery OTA channel around (unless your tuner has serious problems).

Phil P.

Channel 2 (KWGN-TV CW on Low VHF band) is 54 to 60 MHZ
Channel 19 (which is the actual channel that 20-1 KTVD-DT transmits on) is
501.25 Mhz. Interference from skip on channel 2 is highly unlikely. If it was strong enough to do that it would be wiping out rvery OTA channel around (unless your tuner has serious problems).
See
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_broadcast_television_frequencies

for the frequency assignments.

Phil P.

I have the same set and I am watching 20-1 right now with a Radio Shack yagi with no issues.

I noticed a few minutes ago that I am seeing distant channel "skip" on analog 2. Could a distant low band VHS digital channel's "skip" screw up a local channel such a 20-1 if it was mapping to that virtual channel?

That's great to hear that your set is not having problems with 20.1. This means that the problem is probably related to my set. By any chance do you know the manufacture date of your set? My set was manufactured September 2007 in Mexico.

I have been contacted by user rshockle, who is located in Indianapolis, that his first and second Sony XBR4 is experiencing the same problem.

Channel 2 (KWGN-TV CW on Low VHF band) is 54 to 60 MHZ
Channel 19 (which is the actual channel that 20-1 KTVD-DT transmits on) is
501.25 Mhz. Interference from skip on channel 2 is highly unlikely. If it was strong enough to do that it would be wiping out rvery OTA channel around (unless your tuner has serious problems).
See
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_broadcast_television_frequencies

for the frequency assignments.

Phil P.

Could it be possible that the tuner on my Sony KDL52XBR4 is having problem with UHF 19 and 20 when it remaps it to 20.1? In some instances when the TV reboots, instead of being tuned to channel 20.1, it is tuned to channel 20.

Does it do that with any other stations, or is it only 20-1?
I am no expert on the Sony sets (nor on any of them really) I just wonder if it may default to the analog channel for some reason. I know there have been PSIP problems with various stations, but don't remember any recently being discussed about KTVD-DT ( I am sure someone will correct me if I am wrong).

Phil P.

Could it be possible that the tuner on my Sony KDL52XBR4 is having problem with UHF 19 and 20 when it remaps it to 20.1? In some instances when the TV reboots, instead of being tuned to channel 20.1, it is tuned to channel 20.

The TV is only having problem with channel 20.1. All other digital or analog channels work fine.

I have a Sony KDL-52XBR4 LCD TV that freezes and then reboots (power off and on) if I tune to channel 20.1. If left on this channel, the TV would constantly freeze and then reboots. All other digital channels work fine. I am using a Winegard Sensar II amplified antenna. My other Sony KDF-E50A10 rear projection TV works fine using the same antenna feed.

I have tried posting this in the Official Sony XBR4/5 Owners Thread and received no replies. Does anyone have a theory as to what may be causing the problem? Could it be something with the broadcast signal? My assumption is that it is a bug in the TV's firmware.

I have already opened a service request with Sony and have not received a resolution yet.I have a theory, because it sounds similar to the problem I have tuning 20.1 with an older version of MythTV (version 0.20).

It seems that the bitstream for 20.1 includes TWO Program Master Tables (PMT) interleaved into it. Each one has its own continuity counter, so if the tuner software cares it will see a "continuity error" on every PMT frame, which is a couple times per second as I recall.
On a normal channel the PMT frames have a regular progress in the continuity counter, like this (the counter wraps after it gets to 15).
7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,.....
But on 20.1 I see a sequence like this in the continuity counter:
7,12,8,13,9,14,10,15,11,0,12,1,13,2,14,3,15,4,...
and the content of the PMTs themselves are slightly different in the two interleaved sequences.

I have no idea why 20.1 does this, but it is probably due to something odd in their configuration - and since most tuners can deal with it, they haven't seen the need to fix it. The most recent version of MythTV (0.21) must have included some defensive code for this situation, since it can tune 20.1 without freezing.

That's great to hear that your set is not having problems with 20.1. This means that the problem is probably related to my set. By any chance do you know the manufacture date of your set? My set was manufactured September 2007 in Mexico.

I have been contacted by user rshockle, who is located in Indianapolis, that his first and second Sony XBR4 is experiencing the same problem.

FYI my set is a February 2008 manufacturer date and says made in USA.

I guess my question about VHF skip was not very clear.

I am wondering if a distant low band VHF digital channel could interfere with a digital local channel if the skip (DX) was strong enough or if you could receive the channel if you know what channel it maps to. My guess is yes and that is why some channels like KCNC are giving up their VHF channel assignments.

When I lived in Cincinnati 30+ years ago with a outdoor antenna and rotor I actually picked up KWGN a few times during the summer skip season. I also received channels from Cuba, Yucatan, Texas and others. Because I have never had a outdoor VHF antenna here I have not tried very hard here in Colorado.

I think it could get interesting if there are high power low VHF channels after cutoff next year. I thought there was a digital channel 2 in Chicago that was already giving some decoders problems already.

I guess my question about VHF skip was not very clear.

I am wondering if a distant low band VHF digital channel could interfere with a digital local channel if the skip (DX) was strong enough or if you could receive the channel if you know what channel it maps to. My guess is yes and that is why some channels like KCNC are giving up their VHF channel assignments.

I think it could get interesting if there are high power low VHF channels after cutoff next year. I thought there was a digital channel 2 in Chicago that was already giving some decoders problems already.

If the signal's gone, it's gone, mapped or not. Stations are fleeing low-VHF in droves to avoid the issues that come with it--smart ones anyway.

My local PBS is not a smart one, and is planning to stick with their current digital signal on channel 3. Utterly useless most of the time, and when it does come in, electrical noise, lightning, and e-skip (how you received KWGN and whatnot) cause dropouts and pixelization. I'm trying to watch The McLaughlin Group right now on 15-3 and it drops every few seconds due to lightning.

WBBM-DT 3 in Chicago is an excellent example of what problems low-VHF provides, but there are plenty of others in the US as well. Thankfully most stations are avoiding low-VHF.

- Trip

6-1, and 12-1, have totally disappeared for me. I did a rescan to be sure. Seems like a leaf problem or weather realted as 2-1,4-1,7-1,9-1,20-1 and 31-1 are all rock solid.

My local PBS is not a smart one, and is planning to stick with their current digital signal on channel 3.

Huh. I thought that the TV VHF lowband had to be cleared of all traffic by the February 2009 transition. So stations can stay down there and transmit digitally? I thought that the FCC planned to auction off the spectrum.


Jim McCauley

Nope, the FCC auctioned off channels 52-69. That auction has already occurred. Verizon and AT&T got big pieces.

Nobody really wants channels 2-6 except some TV stations that see nothing but lower power bills and FM radio which would like the band expanded downward.

- Trip

BTW, I've tried an FM trap from Radio Shack, but it had no effect, likely because it doesn't block frequencies accurately enough to take out 88.5 FM without stomping on TV 6.

As far as "70s TVs" go, the devices I'm seeing interference on are two Panasonic DVD recorders (severe) and my S3 TiVo (slight).

Not sure if this is the right forum, but here goes...

Is it possible to get OTA HD 720P/1080i 16:9 in Boulder with a simple antenna set up or should I pay the extra bucks and stay with Comcast or go with Direct TV? My situation: I rent so I cannot attach an antenna to the roof and my wife has little patience if technology doesn't work. Basically, I can't afford to be available for "tech support" if signal strength drops, etc.

Thanks in advance!

Does anyone know if KRMA is making any effort to act on the positive response they received from the Jeffco commissioners or are they just sitting on their hands? Jeffco building permit applications? Construction bid solicitations?

Nothing has been filed with the FCC since February and it appears as if they are content to do nothing while they continue to solicit donations and supply a sub standard signal on both analog and digital.

OK - with Lookout up and running - I have a CM4228 and CM7775 that I don't really need anymore. First $50 can have both. But you'll have to pick them up in either Lakewood or Downtown Denver. PM me if interested.:)

Does anyone know if KRMA is making any effort to act on the positive response they received from the Jeffco commissioners or are they just sitting on their hands? Jeffco building permit applications? Construction bid solicitations?

Nothing has been filed with the FCC since February and it appears as if they are content to do nothing while they continue to solicit donations and supply a sub standard signal on both analog and digital.

I have been wondering the same thing. I saw a memo (unfortunately, the only place I saw it was on the sCARE website, but it seems legit) which seems to say there is a lot more than KRMA-DT involved. I believe this memo was involved in the board ruling, but I am not sure.

Jefferson County
Planning and Zoning
Memo
To: Board of County Commissioners
From: Tim Carl, Development & Transportation Director
CC: Jim Moore, County Administrator
Eric Butler, Assistant County Attorney
Date: April 1, 2008
Re: Remand of Mt. Morrison Rezoning Proposal (Case No. 01-108495RZ)
...
The proposed shorter tower can accommodate those stations involved in the Public Interest Communication (PIC) group, which include Rocky Mountain PBS Channel 6 (KRMA-TV), Channel 18 (KRMA-DT), Denver Educational Broadcasting (KUVO-FM), Colorado Public Radio (KVOD-FM), Channel 59-TV and DTV, Channel 14-DTV, Channel 23-LPTV, Channel 63-LPTV, another DTV station and possibly several more low power television stations; KIMN-FM and up to seven more FM stations, and other communication antennas, including cellular, paging, PCS, two-way and point-to-point microwave relay. This proposal also included the removal of an existing 60-foot tall tower on Mt. Morrison. In addition, the existing Channel 6 tower on Lookout Mountain would be removed.

Hey! When did my favorite forum about local politics, land speculation, RF radiation, etc change format to being one about DTV reception? Sheesh!

I negotiated my attic mounted DB8 antenna around to 210 degrees (I think):

(34) 2.1 KWGN-DT 100
(35) 4.1 KCNC-DT 79
(17) 7.1 KMGH-DT 97
(16) 9.1 KUSA-DT 77
(19)20.1 KTVD-DT 100
(32)31.1 KDVR-DT 93
Signals from Lookout Mountain are all clear

The signal from Squaw Mountain is clear:
(38)12.1 KBDI-DTV 65

From Mount Morrison I can pick up:
(15)14.1 KTFD-DT 86
but not:
(18) 6.1 KRMA-DT 0

We finally can get PBS KBDI-DTV 12.1, 12.2 and 12.3!

KRMA-DTV PBS is still a NO SHOW

Slightly OT. I just got around to watching Lost from last Thursday. The picture was fine but there was no audio at all. The wife of course is unhappy!

Did others have picture with no sound? I don't want to look on the big thread because I'd probably look at a thread that gave a summary of the whole episode! Any idea if it will be replayed someplace?

edit: I recorded it to my DirecTv HD DVR from ch 7. Not OTA. Although I do get 4, 7, and 9 OTA now!

No problem with sound from D*.

KRMA-DTV PBS is still a NO SHOW

Here's a happy coinkydink: RMPBS is now running yet another beg-a-thon -- uh, I mean pledge drive! Perhaps our Boulder and Broomfield county posters might want to give them a "tip" instead of a pledge at this page (http://www.rmpbs.org/contact/). A little reminder that they've a) apparently given up on a lot of potential donors who live in an affluent area, and b) you won't be sending them a penny until they address your concerns, might go a long way toward getting some positive action.

Fifteen percent of viewers in the Denver/Aurora/Boulder market area rely on OTA only. It's pretty shortsighted of RMPBS to overlook this potential revenue source.

Not sure if this is the right forum, but here goes...

Is it possible to get OTA HD 720P/1080i 16:9 in Boulder with a simple antenna set up or should I pay the extra bucks and stay with Comcast or go with Direct TV? My situation: I rent so I cannot attach an antenna to the roof and my wife has little patience if technology doesn't work. Basically, I can't afford to be available for "tech support" if signal strength drops, etc.

Thanks in advance!

It depends somewhat on where you are in Boulder. Just a target to use, if you are west of Foothills Pkwy, you are likely to have 'issues' if you are only able to use rabbit ears of a small antenna. It really depends upon whether you are close to having a clear visual view of Lookout. If you are largely blocked by the mountains, you will undoubtedly need a large antenna on a roof, and if you are too far west, that may still not be enough. If you are east of Foothills, you should have a pretty good chance with rabbit ears or a small antenna (especially after the analog goes and everyone is at full power).

I live in the Gunbarrel area and get everything using the Radioshack UHF only antenna at full strength according to my D* OTA receiver. If you really can't be available for 'tech support', my first guess is that you likely need to stay with cable or D*. Boulder, especially near the mountains, has always had a problem with reception from Lookout. Just be glad (S)CARE didn't force the move to Squaw. Hope that helps some, it really is a case by case issue so no one can be definite without being on your site to check it out.

Slightly OT. I just got around to watching Lost from last Thursday. The picture was fine but there was no audio at all. The wife of course is unhappy!

Did others have picture with no sound? I don't want to look on the big thread because I'd probably look at a thread that gave a summary of the whole episode! Any idea if it will be replayed someplace?

edit: I recorded it to my DirecTv HD DVR from ch 7. Not OTA. Although I do get 4, 7, and 9 OTA now!

It looks like ABC has full episodes online. But I'm not a fan, so no idea if they're the "right" episodes. Look at abc.com, anyway.

-Sarah

It looks like ABC has full episodes online. But I'm not a fan, so no idea if they're the "right" episodes. Look at abc.com, anyway.

-Sarah

Yeah, I saw that and will watch it that way. Not quite the same is sparkling HD though! ;)

I've been reading this board for years, but never jumped in. Can't begin to thank you all enough for the wonderful resource that you have created here.

Anyway, JMartinko, I have a question for you:

It depends somewhat on where you are in Boulder. Just a target to use, if you are west of Foothills Pkwy, you are likely to have 'issues' if you are only able to use rabbit ears of a small antenna. It really depends upon whether you are close to having a clear visual view of Lookout. If you are largely blocked by the mountains, you will undoubtedly need a large antenna on a roof, and if you are too far west, that may still not be enough. If you are east of Foothills, you should have a pretty good chance with rabbit ears or a small antenna (especially after the analog goes and everyone is at full power).

I live in the Gunbarrel area and get everything using the Radioshack UHF only antenna at full strength according to my D* OTA receiver. If you really can't be available for 'tech support', my first guess is that you likely need to stay with cable or D*. Boulder, especially near the mountains, has always had a problem with reception from Lookout. Just be glad (S)CARE didn't force the move to Squaw. Hope that helps some, it really is a case by case issue so no one can be definite without being on your site to check it out.

I too live in Gunbarrel (Williams Fork Tr & Spine). I have some old rabbit ears from 100 years ago. I get all of the LM stations at AT LEAST 87% signal, but I can't even get a sniff of 6.1. I would think i would at least get a weak, unusable signal, but my tv has no idea that it even exists.

I'm in an apartment, so a lot of solutions are out. I've considered upgrading to new rabbit ears with some kind of pre-amp in them, but i'm a little afraid to buy them in the fear they won't work (and from my experience, Radio Shack doesn't really handle returns too well).

I'm also hesitant to get a UHF-only "HD" antenna, as (if i have read things correctly) we will have some VHF stations post-transition. Do you (or any of you) have some suggestions on a solution? I'm really not happy paying Comcrap every month for something that is free, but PBS makes up about 75% of the little tv that i watch.

Thanks!

I've been reading this board for years, but never jumped in. Can't begin to thank you all enough for the wonderful resource that you have created here.

Anyway, JMartinko, I have a question for you:



I too live in Gunbarrel (Williams Fork Tr & Spine). I have some old rabbit ears from 100 years ago. I get all of the LM stations at AT LEAST 87% signal, but I can't even get a sniff of 6.1. I would think i would at least get a weak, unusable signal, but my tv has no idea that it even exists.

I'm in an apartment, so a lot of solutions are out. I've considered upgrading to new rabbit ears with some kind of pre-amp in them, but i'm a little afraid to buy them in the fear they won't work (and from my experience, Radio Shack doesn't really handle returns too well).

I'm also hesitant to get a UHF-only "HD" antenna, as (if i have read things correctly) we will have some VHF stations post-transition. Do you (or any of you) have some suggestions on a solution? I'm really not happy paying Comcrap every month for something that is free, but PBS makes up about 75% of the little tv that i watch.

Thanks!

In post # 3329 for this Denver OTA forum I gave my latest reception data.
We are in northeast Longmont near 17th and Pace. I have antennae in our attic. Using the 'TVFool' website and my compass, I think my antenna is aimed at 210 degrees. This is the furthest west I have aimed it.

TVFool results for our location:
Tru Magn Location
KMRA 6.1 192 (182) Mount Morrison
KTFD 14.1 192 (182) Mount Morrison

KWGN 2.1 195 (186)

KCNC 4.1 171 (162) Lookout Mountain
KMGH 7.1 171 (162) Lookout Mountain
KUSA 9.1 171 (162) Lookout Mountain
KTVD 20.1 171 (162) Lookout Mountain

KBDI 12.1 212 (203) Squaw Mountain

With this latest change, we can get KBDI-DTV (12.1, 12.2, 12.3)
I thanked KBDI Technical Services for their suggestion about angling our antenna further west. I also asked if they were considering broadcasting 'News Hour with Jim Leher' and 'Washington Week'.

The fact that we receive KTFD 14.1 from Mount Morrison with no trouble indicates the problem with KMRA-DTV 6.1 is their elevation. They have their antenna mounted on the 'ice bridge' cable conduit between the building and the tower. It seems they either cannot or will not move their antenna on to the tower so we can 'see' it!

I have emailed KMRA and Ombudsman <ombudsman@pbs.org>. I am considering emailing the source/creators of the most important PBS programming about this problem with KMRA.

KMRA is in a fund raising drive now.

Wish us all Luck!

I am kind of confuse between the true and magnetic azimuth. If I am using a compass to aim my antenna, should I be using the true azimuth, or the magnetic azimuth?

That depends on whether the map or instructions that you are using to get your bearings to the transmitters from your location use magnetic or true North as a reference. You have to use the same reference when pointing your antenna!!
You can correct your compass for "True" North using info from:

http://www.ngdc.noaa.gov/geomag/

Phil

The USGS page seems to be broken. For the Denver area declination is pretty close to -10 degrees (10 degrees East). This actually changes with time and elevation, but for aiming an antenna it is close enough. Using a map with true north as a reference, subtract 10 degrees form the bearing when using your compass.



I am kind of confuse between the true and magnetic azimuth. If I am using a compass to aim my antenna, should I be using the true azimuth, or the magnetic azimuth?

Maybe we should start a map with our signal levels and location to get a true map instead of models that FCC does....What do you think?

I
I too live in Gunbarrel (Williams Fork Tr & Spine). I have some old rabbit ears from 100 years ago. I get all of the LM stations at AT LEAST 87% signal, but I can't even get a sniff of 6.1. I would think i would at least get a weak, unusable signal, but my tv has no idea that it even exists.

I'm out in Heatherwood near John, and I have only borderline reception for KRMA-DT, with a garage-mounted U75R (Radio Shack). If you live off of Spine Road you are probably at least a hundred feet lower, which doesn't help. I'd rate your chances of getting KRMA with any kind of normal indoor antenna at pretty near zero. A pre-amp isn't likely to help unless you have a long cable run, which would be unusal in an apartment.

I know Comcast is the devil, but paying them $20 or so for lifeline basic may be your only option - assuming that they send KRMA-DT unencrypted. I think that's true, but you should ask in the Denver Comcast thread to be sure.

At the risk of going OT, I have to ask - why do we need local PBS affiliates anymore? They carry very little locally-produced content, and even for that the audiences are miniscule. PBS to most of us means their nationally distributed shows - Nova, the NewsHour, FrontLine, Austin City Limits. There isn't any doubt that cable and satellite would still carry that stuff even if the local PBS affiliates went away.

So to my way of thinking, the only real purpose KRMA has is to give me a good OTA signal. And they are doing a really crappy job serving that one real purpose.

I am kind of confuse between the true and magnetic azimuth. If I am using a compass to aim my antenna, should I be using the true azimuth, or the magnetic azimuth?

Your compass reads magnetic north, as it should. Get the required magnetic azimuth for the channel(s) you want off of Antennaweb or TVFool and point your antenna using the compass so that your antenna is pointing at the desired azimuth. About the only time you need to deal with true north or conversions between magnetic and true is when you are applying compass readings to map orientations and vice versa (oh the memories of the map reading field exercise course at Fort Benning, GA circa 1967).

I'm out in Heatherwood near John, and I have only borderline reception for KRMA-DT, with a garage-mounted U75R (Radio Shack). If you live off of Spine Road you are probably at least a hundred feet lower, which doesn't help. I'd rate your chances of getting KRMA with any kind of normal indoor antenna at pretty near zero. A pre-amp isn't likely to help unless you have a long cable run, which would be unusal in an apartment.

I know Comcast is the devil, but paying them $20 or so for lifeline basic may be your only option - assuming that they send KRMA-DT unencrypted. I think that's true, but you should ask in the Denver Comcast thread to be sure.

At the risk of going OT, I have to ask - why do we need local PBS affiliates anymore? They carry very little locally-produced content, and even for that the audiences are miniscule. PBS to most of us means their nationally distributed shows - Nova, the NewsHour, FrontLine, Austin City Limits. There isn't any doubt that cable and satellite would still carry that stuff even if the local PBS affiliates went away.

So to my way of thinking, the only real purpose KRMA has is to give me a good OTA signal. And they are doing a really crappy job serving that one real purpose.

Thanks for replying. To clarify: I DO have Comcast now, and RMPBS-DT IS in-the-clear QAM with their basic $15 service. I also followed the advice that a couple of others have suggested, and sent a letter to them during their pledge drive...i'm not holding my breath.

As far as the local affiliates...I'm sure D* and Comcast would LOVE for the local stations to go away...but the OTA signal exists because we own the airwaves (in theory), not the cable companies. Personally, with Digital TV, I see FAR less use for cable/sat providers (especially with all of the PQ/audio issues due to compression).

As far as the local affiliates...I'm sure D* and Comcast would LOVE for the local stations to go away...but the OTA signal exists because we own the airwaves (in theory), not the cable companies. .I agree completely. But if the local affiliates like KRMA aren't going to use those airwaves to send a signal that can be easilty received, then what good are they?

I've noticed that with the recent, more unstable atmospheric conditions lately that I can no longer receive KTVD-DT or KUSA-DT reliably here in Ft. Collins. KTVD has frequent breakups, and KUSA generally won't lock except for 1-2 second bursts.

Mark

I agree completely. But if the local affiliates like KRMA aren't going to use those airwaves to send a signal that can be easilty received, then what good are they?

I am also disappointed with the current signal available from KTMA-DT, but I consider sCARE to be the real villain. It was their ridiculous lawsuits, along with the silly actions of Golden, Jeffco, and the courts, that put KRMA in a difficult situation.

In hindsight, they made a bad choice to drop out of LCG. I believe they hoped to get out of the controvercy by moving to Mt Morrison. That was clearly naive.

They have spent money putting up a transmitter which has problems, and they do have limited funds. To get a decent transmitter will cost more than it should have. I just hope they decide to byte the bullet soon, and fix the situation.

KRMA-DT has said they're staying put on Morrison for "at least two years," so viewers will just have to live with it.

Of course, if you can't receive them, there's no reason to support them with your dollars, either.

What I think the more interesting question will be is what programming will KRMA jettison next year as KRMA and KRMA-DT have different programming for most of the day.

My suspicion: they'll give PBS Create its own subchannel and try to send "HD" programming over 6-1 while running V-Me on 6-2 and Create on a new 6-3.

Thank you CEB II for the clarifications. Luckily I used the magnetic readings to aim my antenna at Lookout Mountain and will not need to climb back on the roof.

I've been reading this board for years, but never jumped in. Can't begin to thank you all enough for the wonderful resource that you have created here.

Anyway, JMartinko, I have a question for you:



I too live in Gunbarrel (Williams Fork Tr & Spine). I have some old rabbit ears from 100 years ago. I get all of the LM stations at AT LEAST 87% signal, but I can't even get a sniff of 6.1. I would think i would at least get a weak, unusable signal, but my tv has no idea that it even exists.

I'm in an apartment, so a lot of solutions are out. I've considered upgrading to new rabbit ears with some kind of pre-amp in them, but i'm a little afraid to buy them in the fear they won't work (and from my experience, Radio Shack doesn't really handle returns too well).

I'm also hesitant to get a UHF-only "HD" antenna, as (if i have read things correctly) we will have some VHF stations post-transition. Do you (or any of you) have some suggestions on a solution? I'm really not happy paying Comcrap every month for something that is free, but PBS makes up about 75% of the little tv that i watch.

Thanks!

oxothuk replied



I'm out in Heatherwood near John, and I have only borderline reception for KRMA-DT, with a garage-mounted U75R (Radio Shack). If you live off of Spine Road you are probably at least a hundred feet lower, which doesn't help. I'd rate your chances of getting KRMA with any kind of normal indoor antenna at pretty near zero. A pre-amp isn't likely to help unless you have a long cable run, which would be unusal in an apartment.

I know Comcast is the devil, but paying them $20 or so for lifeline basic may be your only option - assuming that they send KRMA-DT unencrypted. I think that's true, but you should ask in the Denver Comcast thread to be sure.

At the risk of going OT, I have to ask - why do we need local PBS affiliates anymore? They carry very little locally-produced content, and even for that the audiences are miniscule. PBS to most of us means their nationally distributed shows - Nova, the NewsHour, FrontLine, Austin City Limits. There isn't any doubt that cable and satellite would still carry that stuff even if the local PBS affiliates went away.

So to my way of thinking, the only real purpose KRMA has is to give me a good OTA signal. And they are doing a really crappy job serving that one real purpose.

Sorry I didn't respond, I hadn't been on the thread for a bit. I pretty much agree with what Oxothuck said about your reception and location. I doubt there will be much you can do without a bigger antenna. I bought the UHF only antenna years ago (Fall 2000) as a 'temporary' solution. I mounted it to a post on the back yard deck at my house. I still have a VHF/UHF antenna in the attic I use for analog to various sets in the house. The UHF only goes to my main set on a separate cable in order to avoid splitters etc. It was the only solution I could get to work with the RP stations. I plan to disconnect it and try the attic antenna again for house distribution once the analaog is gone and there are again VHF DTV stations. I would not recommend buying the same UHF antenna at this time.

As for OTA KRMA, I am not too happy with the setup that KRMA uses now. The provide only part of the national signal and do not even delay it to match the local shows. We don't get the evening news in HD it is on at 5 nationally and they can't delay it for 6. I do appreciate a few of the shows like Soundstage and Austin City Limits, as well as the Friday night political fare from 7-10PM but always DVR it. Of course none of it is HD or on the HD channel. I definitely am not happy with what KRMA is doing these days and my donations have reflected that opinion.

KRMA-DT has said they're staying put on Morrison for "at least two years," so viewers will just have to live with it.



Is your post based on any statement made by a KRMA representative since the April 1, 2008 Jeffco decision?
While it seems likely they will be staying on Mt. Morrison, the question is whether they will be staying on the ice bridge.

I recollect (maybe not correctly) some info posted a ways back on KRMA's specially built antenna for the ice bridge. The antenna is configured specifically for the ice bridge, which is horizontal. Perhaps the ice bridge antenna cannot be adapted to a vertical tower? I also recollect in these past posts that KRMA stated they were staying put on the ice bridge for 3 years. With the passage of time, perhaps that's now two years.

Seems like KRMA is the Edsel of Denver OTA TV.

I recollect (maybe not correctly) some info posted a ways back on KRMA's specially built antenna for the ice bridge. The antenna is configured specifically for the ice bridge, which is horizontal. Perhaps the ice bridge antenna cannot be adapted to a vertical tower? I also recollect in these past posts that KRMA stated they were staying put on the ice bridge for 3 years. With the passage of time, perhaps that's now two years.

Seems like KRMA is the Edsel of Denver OTA TV.

An email I received from the KRMA engineer prior to April 1, 2008, indicated that they had to purchase special mounting hardware to attach it to the ice bridge, but he left me with the impression that the antenna, itself, was usable on a normal tower, and that other harware was available to mount it to a normal tower.

He also said (in that same email written prior to the April 1, 2008 hearing) that there was a Jeffco hearing coming up which might change the situation. The question is what KRMA is doing, now that they got the favorable ruling from Jeffco.

He also said that there was a Jeffco hearing coming up which might change the situation.Nothing on the sCARE or any of the other sCARE kool-aid drinker websites about an upcoming hearing. Hmmmm?

Nothing on the sCARE or any of the other sCARE kool-aid drinker websites about an upcoming hearing. Hmmmm?

Sorry for the confusion. It was obious to me what I meant, but I realize now that my statement was unclear. I was referring to a statement in the email that was wriiten before the April 1, 2008 hearing. The engineer was referring to the April 1 hearing.

Is your post based on any statement made by a KRMA representative since the April 1, 2008 Jeffco decision?
While it seems likely they will be staying on Mt. Morrison, the question is whether they will be staying on the ice bridge.

My info predates the April 1 JeffCo decision.

However technically I suspect even given the decision they'll do what had been their intention all along - put a DTV antenna up on what is now the KTVD analog tower once analog is switched off.

Maybe we should start a map with our signal levels and location to get a true map instead of models that FCC does....What do you think?

I think that's a great idea. Unfortunately, I don't have time to code such a beast at the moment. I could contribute some PHP if someone else wants to take the lead and has hosting space with a MySQL backend. I figure the signal level database table needs to look something like (member_id, station_id, signal) with a table of members (member_id, username, password, email) and a table of stations (station_id, callsign). It'd be pretty easy then to grab signal levels by username or callsign and display them on a google map. I would suggest that signal be in the set (none, constant breakups, sometimes watchable, 100% watchable) even though that's subjective. Not everybody's tuner reads signal level in dBm or BER or even %.

I finally got around to playing with my DTT900 tonight. My two distant-station prizes are KWGN-DT (2-1 and 2-2) and CBS out of Cheyenne (5-1 and 5-2). I'm literally using a piece of 300ohm twin-lead tacked to the wall for an antenna. I can't receive any of the stations on the new lookout tower, but the tuner kind of hesitates when auto scanning on each channel in the 15 to 20 range. I think with even a small to moderate-sized real antenna, I should be able to pick up the the lookout four.

-Glen

Ooops. Looks like I left latitude and longitude out of the members table as well as the stations table.

-Glen

Will the LCG tower last until February?

From an opinion in the Rocky Mountain News (http://www.rockymountainnews.com/news/2008/jun/05/a-ruling-too-far/) about the recent CO Supreme Court decision that allowed Telluride to condemn property outside their city boundary:

A land rush may soon be on in Colorado, and the prospectors could be home-rule cities seeking property outside their boundaries.

At least that's how we read one possible outcome of Monday's state Supreme Court decision letting Telluride use eminent domain to seize 600 acres of private property sitting outside the town limits.

The opinion distorts the straightforward language in the state constitution regarding the relationship between home-rule cities and the state. And in the process, the court has enabled those cities to condemn land in nearby counties or non-home-rule towns, with state lawmakers powerless to stop them.

Using this logic, for example, Denver might even condemn property in Western Slope counties for water reservoirs or pipeline right-of-way.

The dispute arose when Telluride officials condemned the Valley Floor parcel, which frames the entrance to Telluride, to preserve it as open space. The landowner - who wanted to build a golf course and a resort - challenged the condemnation in district court and lost. Last year a jury valued the property at $50 million.

The city came up with the money, but a big problem remained: The Valley Floor is in unincorporated San Miguel County. A 2004 law signed by then-Gov. Bill Owens stated that a home-rule city cannot condemn land outside city limits for "parks, recreation, open space, conservation, preservation of views or scenic vistas, or for similar purposes." It can buy the land, but it must involve a willing seller.

The Colorado Constitution spells out when Denver can condemn property outside its boundaries. Section 1 of Article XX allows such "extraterritorial condemnation" for "water works, light plants, power plants, transportation systems, heating plants, and any other public utilities or works or ways local in use and extent."

For home-rule cities in general, Section 6 of Article XX simply says that when a conflict arises between state law and a home-rule city's charters or ordinances, the city "shall supersede" state law "within the territorial limits."

The 2004 law shouldn't have been necessary. But it provided clarity, saying the limited public uses allowing Denver to condemn land outside its territory applied to other home-rule cities, too.

Monday's 6-1 majority would have none of this. It struck down the 2004 measure, saying it "prohibit[s] home rule municipalities, including Telluride, from exercising constitutional powers of eminent domain" - as if cities' powers superseded state law outside their territorial limits, too.

Indeed, the justices said "Article XX grants home rule municipalities the power to condemn property for any lawful, public, local, and municipal purpose," including "extraterritorial condemnation of property for open space and parks" (our emphasis). …

You see where this is going, right?

This means that Golden is now free to seize land on Lookout Mountain, including LCG's land and tower and that of other broadcasters, for use as open space as they had wanted to, with the full blessing of the Colorado Supreme Court.

There is nothing in the federal law allowing the LCG tower to be built stating that Golden cannot seize that land and property and tear the towers down so that the land can be used as open space.

Let the lawsuits begin.

This means that Golden is now free to seize land on Lookout Mountain, including LCG's land and tower and that of other broadcasters, for use as open space as they had wanted to, with the full blessing of the Colorado Supreme Court.
In theory, yes. But I wouldn't lose any sleep over it.
1) The tower has been constructed and built. So Golden would have to compensate LCG for the value of that tower, not just the land itself. Big bucks.
2) With the analog shutoff 8 months away, the public is much more aware of how their interests would be affected - as compared to two years ago when many folks thought it was only about "HD".
3) Having seen the Colorado congressional delegation swat them down before in 2006, Golden would have to realize this would be likely to happen again before they could pull off such a land grab.
4) The 2006 legislation does not just apply to the LCG site but rather to all of Lookout Mountain. Golden would have to condemn ALL of the existing tower sites, since ANY of them can legally be used for DTV transmission.

In theory, yes. But I wouldn't lose any sleep over it.
1) The tower has been constructed and built. So Golden would have to compensate LCG for the value of that tower, not just the land itself. Big bucks.
2) With the analog shutoff 8 months away, the public is much more aware of how their interests would be affected - as compared to two years ago when many folks thought it was only about "HD".
3) Having seen the Colorado congressional delegation swat them down before in 2006, Golden would have to realize this would be likely to happen again before they could pull off such a land grab.
4) The 2006 legislation does not just apply to the LCG site but rather to all of Lookout Mountain. Golden would have to condemn ALL of the existing tower sites, since ANY of them can legally be used for DTV transmission.

I would add that the original LCG deal was to include converting the old land to open space. While I cannot say with certainty this will still be the case, LCG has seemed to stick with other aspects of the deal so that it is likely.

I'm not sure about the federal law. In some sense condemnation is a local land use issue of an extreme form. At any rate, the City of Golden has a different government than it did two years ago.

I'm not sure about the federal law. In some sense condemnation is a local land use issue of an extreme form. At any rate, the City of Golden has a different government than it did two years ago.

It's not the same situation as Telluride thanks to the 2006 federal law pertaining to LOM. Here's the text of PL 109-466:

Notwithstanding any applicable State or local land use or condemnation laws or regulations…any person that holds an approved Federal Communications Commission permit to construct or install either a digital television broadcast station antenna or tower, or both, located on Lookout Mountain in Jefferson County in the State of Colorado, may, at such location, construct, install, use, modify, replace, repair or consolidate such antenna or tower, or both, and all accompanying facilities and services associated with such digital television broadcasts, if such antenna or tower is of the same height or lower than the tallest existing analog broadcast antenna or tower at such location.

"Notwithstanding" is a synonym for "despite." This federal law trumps anything the General Assembly, state Supreme Court, Jefferson County commissioners or Golden city councilors have to say on any matter pertaining to Lookout Mountain digital broadcast towers. Thus, Golden or Jefferson County can condemn the land for open space all they want, and it won't make the slightest difference to the LCG tower and the stations' transmitters/antennas. PL 109-466 gives them the legal right to maintain the facilities and operate the stations for as long as they remain FCC permit holders.

There are only two ways this situation can change:

1) Congress passes/president signs another law repealing PL 109-466.

2) The federal courts overturn PL 109-466 as unconstitutional.

In case of No. 2, you can safely bet LCG has both the will and the financial resources to force the issue through the appeals process all the way to the U.S. Supreme Court. That costs a lot of money that the city and county don't have.

Like oxothuk, I'm not losing sleep over this, either.

It's not the same situation as Telluride thanks to the 2006 federal law pertaining to LOM. Here's the text of PL 109-466:



"Notwithstanding" is a synonym for "despite." This federal law trumps anything the General Assembly, state Supreme Court, Jefferson County commissioners or Golden city councilors have to say on any matter pertaining to Lookout Mountain digital broadcast towers. Thus, Golden or Jefferson County can condemn the land for open space all they want, and it won't make the slightest difference to the LCG tower and the stations' transmitters/antennas. PL 109-466 gives them the legal right to maintain the facilities and operate the stations for as long as they remain FCC permit holders.

There are only two ways this situation can change:

1) Congress passes/president signs another law repealing PL 109-466.

2) The federal courts overturn PL 109-466 as unconstitutional.

In case of No. 2, you can safely bet LCG has both the will and the financial resources to force the issue through the appeals process all the way to the U.S. Supreme Court. That costs a lot of money that the city and county don't have.

Like oxothuk, I'm not losing sleep over this, either.

Geez, I was gonna say that. ;)

The Federal law trumps anything done locally. Game, set, match! I'm not losing sleep over this, either too!

Am I correct to assume the Federal Law doesn't exempt LCG from local taxation. Wouldn't it be ironic if Golden somehow seized the mountain from Jeffco jurisdiction for it's ratables?

They say the Lord works in mysterious ways. The law works in even more mysterious ways.

--- CHAS

Am I correct to assume the Federal Law doesn't exempt LCG from local taxation.

Yup. The law pre-empts "any applicable State or local land use or condemnation laws or regulations." It doesn't address property taxation.

They say the Lord works in mysterious ways. The law works in even more mysterious ways.

A big ay-men to that. :D

After a few weeks, I've determined that of the new LCG stations, only KCNC-DT can be received reliably from my location in Ft. Collins. The others have breakups and are sometimes missing entirely.

I hope things improve in August. Do we expect KUSA, KMGH and KTVD to all increase power at that time?

Mark

KTVD will likely increase power ASAP, the rest will most likely not do so until 02/17/09.

- Trip

Interesting that a lot of people won't know if they will lose OTA TV until 2/17/09. Some "transition" this is. :-/.

Mark

Interesting that a lot of people won't know if they will lose OTA TV until 2/17/09. Some "transition" this is. :-/.

Mark

Yes!
Will we still have 'News Hour with Jim Leher' and 'Washington Week' from PBS (KRMA or KBDI)?
Will we still have Denver News when KMGH and KUSA revert back to VHF?

I found out yesterday that high winds can greatly decrease my received signal strength. I was betting breakups on stations that had previously been rock solid. I also had better signal strengths on a station that previously was unwatchable because of signal breakups.

Do you have an outside antenna? In the old days of weaker signals from downtown ( we all remember the KMGH coathanger) the wind would move my very directional antenna enough that all of the downtown stations would become unwatchable. I was forced to switch to the satellite (D*). But my reception was just on the edge of lock under the best conditions.

Phil

Yes!
Will we still have 'News Hour with Jim Leher' and 'Washington Week' from PBS (KRMA or KBDI)?


That is a BIG problem for me with KRMA and I have mentioned it in previous posts. I do not understand why they have yet to procure a unit to time shift the national feeds of the News Hour, and I don't know what they intend to do with the Friday news shows from Washington Week to Now, to McGlaughlin Group and Bill Moyers. The could put them on in SD on the DTV channel, but they have never done that so far. I find it hard to believe they don't time shift or translate due to the expense of the equipment. I don't know how they could run all the the PBS family of stations if things are that tight. I wonder if those shows will go over to KBDI which of course can't be received by anyone close to the front range much north of Rocky Flats.

I do not understand why they have yet to procure a unit to time shift the national feeds of the News Hour, and I don't know what they intend to do with the Friday news shows from Washington Week to Now, to McGlaughlin Group and Bill Moyers... I find it hard to believe they don't time shift or translate due to the expense of the equipment.

Me too. Three of four years ago, the Sunday Post ran a lengthy piece by Joanne Ostrow about Denver public broadcasting. What stuck out for me were the comparative revenue streams at the time: RMPBS (KRMA) was pulling in just over $10 million a year; CPB (KBDI) had annual revenue of slightly more than $3 million. I fully understand that first-run PBS shows like NewsHour, Nova, Frontline, Masterpiece Theater, etc., don't come cheap for local affiliates, but it's hard to believe it costs three times as much revenue for the privilege of airing many of these shows one day earlier than CPB can.

When looking on discussion boards for other markets, I regularly see posters reporting three, four or five channels from their PBS digital affiliates. This includes the PBS outlet in Burlington, Vermont, which serves a population of fewer than 600,000 souls, according to the FCC allocation table. VPT offers four channels, all with different shows on 24/7 -- including PBS-HD. KRMA, on the other hand, has an estimated 2.9 million people within its final broadcast area, and crams PBS-HD and Create on the same subchannel. Burlington may be a more affluent market -- emphasis on may be -- but that should be easily trumped by our population advantage of about 5:1 when it's time for a pledge drive.

All of which is why I find a lot more to admire about KBDI: It's a shoestring operation, they know it, they're proud of it and they do the best they can with what they've got -- even if 480i digital broadcasting is all they are able to offer.

When I was channel surfing tonight, KBDI had international news on 12-1, a documentary about the assassination of RFK on 12-2, and a soccer game on 12-3. KET, Kentucky's PBS, runs 5-6 subchannels of programming. No one is going to claim Kentucky as affluent (I used to live there!). I don't know what they'd save by eliminating it, but I'm kinda sick and tired KRMA spending money to put on channel 6-2's programming directed at folks who'd rather speak Spanish instead of buying some "essential" HD equipment. Perhaps we should send our contributions exclusively to KBDI so they can upgrade to HD. KRMA just doesn't seem to get it lately - inability to timeshift and a care less attitude about their transmitter.

On a another subject, KUSA failed to switch to HD for the beginning of Leno again tonight. They seem to do this about once a week lately. I just can't understand how they can follow an HD newscast with failing to switch on the HD for the beginning of Leno. They've been screwing this up for years.

Venting over now.

KRMA just doesn't seem to get it lately - inability to timeshift and a care less attitude about their transmitter.

I have been urging RMPBS quietly but urgently to make public any plan they might have for restoring signal coverage to "shadowlands" from Louisville through Fort Collins by the cutover date, and although I have made a number of concrete suggestions, they have said absolutely nothing.

The next board meeting is in August, but that is likely to be less well attended than the one on Wednesday, September 26. I went before the board once before to plead the case of "those who dwell in the land of the shadow" and got a polite reception but no commitments. Despite that, and the high price of gasoline to get from Fort Collins to Denver, I'm willing to try it again. Anyone care to join me?

In preparation, I am prepared to go public with my concerns in Northern Colorado media prior to the meeting, including a suggestion for a formal boycott of the fall pledge drive if necessary. RMPBS' behavior is simply unacceptable.


Jim McCauley

On a another subject, KUSA failed to switch to HD for the beginning of Leno again tonight. They seem to do this about once a week lately.

One sees flubs like this almost every day, and on nearly every channel. My hunch -- which together with about four bucks will buy a Starbucks latte -- is that most stations haven't augmented staffing with additional broadcast engineers and/or computer programmers. The same number of people who once had only the analog broadcasts to worry about must now cover both analog and digital. As analog remains mandatory until Feb. 17, while digital co-broadcasting is considered "experimental" during the pre-transition period, it isn't hard to guess which broadcast draws the short stick whenever things get a little hectic around the station.

Me too. Three of four years ago, the Sunday Post ran a lengthy piece by Joanne Ostrow about Denver public broadcasting. What stuck out for me were the comparative revenue streams at the time: RMPBS (KRMA) was pulling in just over $10 million a year; CPB (KBDI) had annual revenue of slightly more than $3 million. I fully understand that first-run PBS shows like NewsHour, Nova, Frontline, Masterpiece Theater, etc., don't come cheap for local affiliates, but it's hard to believe it costs three times as much revenue for the privilege of airing many of these shows one day earlier than CPB can.

When looking on discussion boards for other markets, I regularly see posters reporting three, four or five channels from their PBS digital affiliates. This includes the PBS outlet in Burlington, Vermont, which serves a population of fewer than 600,000 souls, according to the FCC allocation table. VPT offers four channels, all with different shows on 24/7 -- including PBS-HD. KRMA, on the other hand, has an estimated 2.9 million people within its final broadcast area, and crams PBS-HD and Create on the same subchannel. Burlington may be a more affluent market -- emphasis on may be -- but that should be easily trumped by our population advantage of about 5:1 when it's time for a pledge drive.

All of which is why I find a lot more to admire about KBDI: It's a shoestring operation, they know it, they're proud of it and they do the best they can with what they've got -- even if 480i digital broadcasting is all they are able to offer.

KRMA obviously finds it more important to spend money on a sub-channel for all of those tax paying Americans who only speak Spanish.

I too have written KRMA about the shadowing issues for the L-burbs multiple times. I've tried all kinds of letters to various addresses and have even offered to donate simply for responding to my email. No response. Period.

Jim, going to the press seems like the way to go, given their lack of response to anything else.

As for attacks on them broadcasting in Spanish.....that's really not necessary. Sure, we can lament the degradation of the HD signal....but the public has lots of Spanish speakers now, and as far as I know, the mission of PBS channels is to serve the public. Besides, if I had to guess, I'd guess that Spanish speakers are more likely to watch free OTA than the rest of the population. (And from a personal standpoint, I support Spanish channels because they are much more likely to show soccer games than the English channels.)

Stating that purchasing Spanish language programming for a full time sub-channel rather than using the funds for something "necessary" (change antenna locations, increase power from 115 ERP) is not an "attack". It is merely a statement of fact. Viewer support (contributions) of KRMA does not come, IMO, in any signifant amount from the folks viewing channel 6-2.

Denver already has Spanish language programming, full time, on channels 14, 25, 27, and 51. Channel 6-2 is not filling any need that I see. Channel 6-2 is yet another example of the poor choices the management of KRMA seems to make, over and over again.

Stating that purchasing Spanish language programming for a full time sub-channel rather than using the funds for something "necessary" (change antenna locations, increase power from 115 ERP) is not an "attack". It is merely a statement of fact. Viewer support (contributions) of KRMA does not come, IMO, in any signifant amount from the folks viewing channel 6-2.

Denver already has Spanish language programming, full time, on channels 14, 25, 27, and 51. Channel 6-2 is not filling any need that I see. Channel 6-2 is yet another example of the poor choices the management of KRMA seems to make, over and over again.

Exactly!

I too have written KRMA about the shadowing issues for the L-burbs multiple times. I've tried all kinds of letters to various addresses and have even offered to donate simply for responding to my email. No response. Period.


KRMA?? What's a KRMA???:rolleyes:

Oh wait, is it that oft-rumored PBS station? Since I live in Lafayette, I have no evidence that it exists. I guess I'll have to take other members' word for it.

Oh well, my donation to them will be as vaporous as their signal is to me.

Surprisingly, I get good reception on KRMA, but nothing from KBDI. I used to watch the KBDI programs a lot more than KRMA when I had just analog. I would gladly trade my KRMA signal for a KBDI one.

On two of my ATSC tuners, KBDI-DT is now my most powerful signal.

On a another subject, KUSA failed to switch to HD for the beginning of Leno again tonight. They seem to do this about once a week lately. I just can't understand how they can follow an HD newscast with failing to switch on the HD for the beginning of Leno. They've been screwing this up for years.

Venting over now.

Don't worry, 2-1 is following 9-1's lead. Apparently, Smallville is gonna be 4:3 letterboxed from now on. :rolleyes: Maybe I should get my Cheyenne antenna back up again, I think 5-1 carries the show also.

Stating that purchasing Spanish language programming for a full time sub-channel rather than using the funds for something "necessary" (change antenna locations, increase power from 115 ERP) is not an "attack". It is merely a statement of fact. Viewer support (contributions) of KRMA does not come, IMO, in any signifant amount from the folks viewing channel 6-2.

Denver already has Spanish language programming, full time, on channels 14, 25, 27, and 51. Channel 6-2 is not filling any need that I see. Channel 6-2 is yet another example of the poor choices the management of KRMA seems to make, over and over again.

Also, doesn't a significant amount of PBS programming include SAP/Spanish audio? Whatever the ATSC-equivalent is should be used with their regular local and PBS programming to serve Spanish-speaking viewers.

Regarding cost, though, RMPBS says they get the V-me "core service" at no cost (from the web page):

"V-me provides a national core service at no cost to its partner stations like Rocky Mountain PBS. In addition to local marketing and outreach, stations can customize certain segments of the service with select local content that reflects the distinctive regional aspects of the U.S. Hispanic population."

Not sure where V-me's funding comes from.

"V-me provides a national core service at no cost to its partner stations like Rocky Mountain PBS." Not sure where V-me's funding comes from.

Probably the Corporation for Public Broadcasting which, as the quick slide at the beginning of many PBS flagship programs states, is a "private, nonprofit corporation funded by the American people." CPB was created by statute 41 years ago. In other words, you, me and most everyone else is already a PBS contributor through our income taxes. Whether we like it or not. But, that's different from supporting local broadcasts of PBS programming, which explains the pledge drives.

V-me, PBS-HD and a whole slew of other PBS services are uplinked to free-to-air (unscrambled) satellites. So are Documentary Channel and MHz Worldview, the KBPI subchannels. Ditto NBC's Weather Plus, The Tube Network and hundreds of other services. (Admittedly, many, many of them are of the "come to Jesus" or "come to Allah" variety.) Receiving these satellite broadcasts is completely legal and only costs a few hundred greenbacks for a receiver and dish, but by its very nature, this is a DIY endeavor.

Google "free-to-air satellite" when you get the chance. What you'll read is absolutely fascinating.

Surprisingly, I get good reception on KRMA, but nothing from KBDI. I used to watch the KBDI programs a lot more than KRMA when I had just analog. I would gladly trade my KRMA signal for a KBDI one.

We are near 17th and Pace and receive KRMA-TV with good picture and KBDI-TV with snowy picture. KRMA-DT does not come in at all! KBDI-DT comes in 'good' with some video break ups. We had to crank our antenna further west (~210 degrees) to bring in KBDI-DT.

This is a little off topic, but I was wondering if there are any good hard copy sources for local TV listings anymore? I used to subscribe to TV Guide until they changed their format a few years ago. I've been using zap2it.com lately, but a hard copy would be more convenient. My experience with the TV listings in the newspaper is that they generally only cover prime time. Are there any hard copy sources for TV listings that show the entire schedule?

I was wondering (wishing) if the Sunday (Denver Post or RM News) TV listings for the week will start to include the digital sub-channels too. That is where I look. Too cheap to buy a separate guide and I prefer a hard copy.

Surprisingly, I get good reception on KRMA, but nothing from KBDI. I used to watch the KBDI programs a lot more than KRMA when I had just analog. I would gladly trade my KRMA signal for a KBDI one.

It seems like in this area it is pretty hit and miss. I am near 75th and Lookout south of you and get KRMA DT just fine but nothing on KBDI-DT. I get KRMA analog OK, but a very snowy picture on KBDI analog. Reception all over the Lousiville, Boulder, Longmont area seems to vary greatly by location.

This is a little off topic, but I was wondering if there are any good hard copy sources for local TV listings anymore? I used to subscribe to TV Guide until they changed their format a few years ago. I've been using zap2it.com lately, but a hard copy would be more convenient. My experience with the TV listings in the newspaper is that they generally only cover prime time. Are there any hard copy sources for TV listings that show the entire schedule?

I was wondering (wishing) if the Sunday (Denver Post or RM News) TV listings for the week will start to include the digital sub-channels too. That is where I look. Too cheap to buy a separate guide and I prefer a hard copy.

Have you guys registered with zap2it? Once registered and logged in, you can filter the display to show only those channels you're interested in -- including the subchannels. Their "print view" function produces a pretty decent hard copy of a grid for any time period you want, up to six hours long.

About a week ago, maybe 2, I did a channel scan with one of my Vizio VX32L TVs. One of my DVD recorders had picked up a hint of 11-1, and I wanted to see if the Vizio could get it. I did get 11-1 sound, but no video. I got both on 11-2. Later I lost them completely, but that is not what I am concerned about,

I lost 6-1 (and 6-2) in the process. I have tried re-scanning several times, and played with my antenna configuration, but the Vizio cannot detect KRMA-DT. I do not think it is signal strength. My Philips 42PF7320 TV, my other Vizio VX32L TV , and both my Philips DVD recorders all get 6-1 and 6-2 at the times when I try the re-scan.

I am reasonably confident that the only way to add a digital channel with the Vizio is a full channel scan. That is the one thing I do not like about the TV. In general, I think they are a great value. I am not willing to try a scan with the other TV, since I suspect I would lose KRMA-DT on it, also.

I am curious if anyone else has observed anything similar? For the record, I am not asking anyone else to do a scan. I just want to know if anyone happened to do one recently, and lost KRMA-DT or some piece of it in the process, or has lost part of a subchannel they used to get.

If any one else has seen something, I will contact KRMA and ask them to re-boot the PSIP generator. That has fixed strange problems in the past where some people were missing video and/or audio on a sub-channel.

About a week ago, maybe 2, I did a channel scan with one of my Vizio VX32L TVs. One of my DVD recorders had picked up a hint of 11-1, and I wanted to see if the Vizio could get it. I did get 11-1 sound, but no video. I got both on 11-2. Later I lost them completely, but that is not what I am concerned about,

I lost 6-1 (and 6-2) in the process. I have tried re-scanning several times, and played with my antenna configuration, but the Vizio cannot detect KRMA-DT. I do not think it is signal strength. My Philips 42PF7320 TV, my other Vizio VX32L TV , and both my Philips DVD recorders all get 6-1 and 6-2 at the times when I try the re-scan.

I am reasonably confident that the only way to add a digital channel with the Vizio is a full channel scan. That is the one thing I do not like about the TV. In general, I think they are a great value. I am not willing to try a scan with the other TV, since I suspect I would lose KRMA-DT on it, also.

I am curious if anyone else has observed anything similar? For the record, I am not asking anyone else to do a scan. I just want to know if anyone happened to do one recently, and lost KRMA-DT or some piece of it in the process, or has lost part of a subchannel they used to get.

If any one else has seen something, I will contact KRMA and ask them to re-boot the PSIP generator. That has fixed strange problems in the past where some people were missing video and/or audio on a sub-channel.

I also own a Visio VX32L and have the same problem. I think the tuner just isn't as sensitive as others. It is a nice TV, but as you said, the only way to add digital channels is via a channel scan. That sucks!!

I had KRMA-DT for a couple of months when the weather was colder, but did a channel scan after the new Lookout Mountain tower went active and have not been able to get it back during the past few weeks. I have a Philips DVDR3576H recorder that still picks it up from the same antenna that is connected to my TV. I sent an e-mail to KRMA via their web site a couple of weeks ago asking them for suggestions and have not heard a word from them.

I am receiving KDEV-DT both 11-1 and 11-2 with picture and sound. I did notice problems last week with 11-1 where I was receiving sound but no picture, and at times, neither. I was surprised no one mentioned it here, but then I guess we've come to expect such things from KDEV-DT. It's also kind of frustrating that they keep dropping RTN. It was back for a couple of weeks after being gone for a week or so, but it hasn't been back for the past couple of weeks. Their programming pretty much sucks since it's mostly infomercials, but there are a couple of real shows that I enjoy. Luckily, I am able to receive KDEV-LP albeit not very well.

Has anyone else noticed that KRMT finally fixed their problem, well sort of? They show up now as 40-1 rather than 40-16. They should be 41-1, but I can deal with that.

An update:

KGNU stepped up for me and completely resolved my interference with KRMA analog. (I'm sure the fact their transmitter is a block away helped with that. ;))

I saw that KRMT "fixed" their maps, but my S3 TiVo still won't see it, either as 40-1 or 41-1.

An update:

KGNU stepped up for me and completely resolved my interference with KRMA analog. (I'm sure the fact their transmitter is a block away helped with that. ;))

I saw that KRMT "fixed" their maps, but my S3 TiVo still won't see it, either as 40-1 or 41-1.

Could you elaborate on how KGNU resolved your interference? Did they give you a notch filter or what?

Could you elaborate on how KGNU resolved your interference? Did they give you a notch filter or what?

They provided me with a tunable trap (http://www.microwavefilter.com/tunabletraps.htm) which cuts the signal at 88.5 MHz by 25 dB.

http://www.microwavefilter.com/images/3468.jpghttp://www.microwavefilter.com/plots/3468-cv.jpg

I don't believe KGNU can be the source of your interference, given their signal footprint:

http://www.kgnu.org/graphics/coverage.gif

Do you have a nearby station broadcasting at or around 88.5 MHz?

Specifically, KGNU's web site mentions:

Listeners in South Denver may get interference from KCME (88.7 MHz) in Manitou Springs, since they increased they power

So that could be who's stomping on KRMA for you (in which case, you'd complain to KCME (http://www.kcme.org/).)

I don't believe KGNU can be the source of your interference, given their signal footprint:


Thanks for the detailed response. As you said, I would be surprised if KGNU was causing interference for me due to the distance, but then again, I'm a little confused how any FM station in the 88 mhz range could be causing problems. As I understand it, the video signal for channel 6 is 83.25 mhz, so it doesn't make sense to me that a radio station at 88.5 or 88.7 mhz would have any effect on it. Am I missing something?

I've tried a couple of standard FM traps, but they really don't seem to have any effect on channel six, and any traps that block the entire FM range will apparently block channel 6 altogether. Consequently, I will probably just deal with the interference until February since it won't matter after that.

Thanks for the detailed response. As you said, I would be surprised if KGNU was causing interference for me due to the distance, but then again, I'm a little confused how any FM station in the 88 mhz range could be causing problems. As I understand it, the video signal for channel 6 is 83.25 mhz, so it doesn't make sense to me that a radio station at 88.5 or 88.7 mhz would have any effect on it. Am I missing something?

The width of the various signals.

NTSC signals take up 6 MHz, so channel 6 actually ranges from 82 - 88 MHz, with the audio being centered at 87.75 MHz.

So it's not a stretch to see how a strong FM signal centered a mere 500 - 750 KHz away could cause interference.

Just sent an email to the station since we're not getting KBDI-DT, though the analog signal is normal. They're normally about 90 percent on the signal-strength meter here; only KMGH-DT tops them at an average of 95 percent. All others are usually in the 80s. KBDI-DT is now at a steady zero signal strength on both 12-1 and 38-1. Ditto for the subchannels.

Just sent an email to the station since we're not getting KBDI-DT, though the analog signal is normal. They're normally about 90 percent on the signal-strength meter here; only KMGH-DT tops them at an average of 95 percent. All others are usually in the 80s. KBDI-DT is now at a steady zero signal strength on both 12-1 and 38-1. Ditto for the subchannels.

It's funny, my tuner says 0% signal strength, but it doesn't give me the usual "searching for signal" message. Just a black screen. I wonder if the signal is there, but they're doing something screwy with the data.

Just sent an email to the station since we're not getting KBDI-DT, though the analog signal is normal. They're normally about 90 percent on the signal-strength meter here; only KMGH-DT tops them at an average of 95 percent. All others are usually in the 80s. KBDI-DT is now at a steady zero signal strength on both 12-1 and 38-1. Ditto for the subchannels.

I first noticed I could not get KBDI-DT at 11AM. I couldn't be as sure as you, because I live in Louisville, and reception of KBDI-DT is often shaky.

Back on now. Maybe they just read Don's email...

KRMA-DT, my weakest DTV signal, but still normally a solid lock with my current antenna arrangement and tuners, has been a no show this evening. I got "0" for signal strength on my Dish ViP211. Later I tried with my Samsung LCD HDTV's internal tuner. Got a picture for about 10 seconds, then zippo! A case of a station going from bad to worse.

KRMA-DT has been off and on all day Sunday, but mostly off, and when it's be off it's been completely off, not just too weak to get a lock.

KRMA-DT has been off and on all day Sunday, but mostly off, and when it's be off it's been completely off, not just too weak to get a lock.

Zero signal strength again this morning. In our fondest dreams we can all be thinking that maybe they are doing something that will improve their signal coverage. Not!

Back on now. Maybe they just read Don's email...

About the time you posted this, KBDI-DT was back on here, too, but at a really shaky signal strength in the 30s and 40s with frequent freezes. Led me to believe they may have been broadcasting from a backup transmitter at the time.

KBDI-DT is reading 95 (all 3 sub-channels) on my Dish ViP211; highest I've ever seen the signal strength from them (my Winegard Yagi antenna is pointed at LOM (211 degrees) and KBDI-DT is at 234 degrees). PQ is very good (excellent for a 480i broadcast). Still ZERO on KRMA-DT.

Zero signal strength again this morning. In our fondest dreams we can all be thinking that maybe they are doing something that will improve their signal coverage. Not!

There's definitely something funky going on with KRMA. On Comcast both yesterday and earlier today, when I tuned to channel 658 (KRMA-DT), it was frozen. I couldn't get any audio or video, it just stayed on the last image from the previous channel, so it's not limited to OTA. It seems to be fine now. Yeah, it would be great if they were doing some kind of upgrade, but I doubt that.

Just took a quick look at:

-- KBDI-DT, which is back to a normal signal.

-- KRMA-DT, which I'm also getting at the usual signal strength. Of note: 6-1 is running a simulcast of what's on the analog channel instead of Create programming. Like to see that continue into primetime... but I won't be holding my breath until then. :cool:

Looks like RTN is back on KDEV-DT (11-1) after being MIA for a couple of weeks!

But for how long...

KRMA-DT's back to running PBS Create programming on 6-1…

Jay Leno not in Hi-def during monolog on channel 9. Is channel 9 testing to see how many complaints they get? I can't imagine they are doing this by mistake!

KUSA has shown the first part of Leno in SD at least once a week for the past 3-4 weeks. I emailed Mark Cornetta at KUSA twice, including today after last night's debacle, but have not received any replies. They have done this time and again for a long time. One would think, after years of dealing with HD, they could get it right. I'm not referring to the incidental screwup, it's their inability to put a process in place to make sure that, ironically, after HD news, they flip the HD switch for Leno.

KUSA has shown the first part of Leno in SD at least once a week for the past 3-4 weeks. I emailed Mark Cornetta at KUSA twice, including today after last night's debacle, but have not received any replies. They have done this time and again for a long time. One would think, after years of dealing with HD, they could get it right. I'm not referring to the incidental screwup, it's their inability to put a process in place to make sure that, ironically, after HD news, they flip the HD switch for Leno.

What's their email address? Maybe if we all bombard them with complaints the next few times they screw up, they might get the message.

KUSA has shown the first part of Leno in SD at least once a week for the past 3-4 weeks. I emailed Mark Cornetta at KUSA twice, including today after last night's debacle, but have not received any replies. They have done this time and again for a long time. One would think, after years of dealing with HD, they could get it right. I'm not referring to the incidental screwup, it's their inability to put a process in place to make sure that, ironically, after HD news, they flip the HD switch for Leno.

Has anyone tried calling the newsroom and asking them to tell the operators to flip the #$@! switch?

At least that's worked in the past during prime time, but I'm not sure if there's anyone in the newsroom after the 10:00 PM broadcast.

BREAKING NEWS!

KRMA-DT has filed with the FCC for new facilities. See here:

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/prefill_and_display.pl?Application_id=1248487&Service=DT&Form_id=340&Facility_id=14040

1128' 1000 kW DA.

Rejoice, people of the Denver area!

EDIT: I was just thinking... the antenna is higher, but by how much?

- Trip

BREAKING NEWS!

KRMA-DT has filed with the FCC for new facilities. See here:

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/prefill_and_display.pl?Application_id=1248487&Service=DT&Form_id=340&Facility_id=14040

It looks like this is what they've been saying all along - they're likely putting a transmitter up on the KTVD tower.

One thing they definitely are doing is moving from their RF Technologies SFNstar antenna on the ice bridge to a Dielectric TUA-C2-12/24H-T cardioid on the tower:

http://www.dielectric.com/broadcast/brochures/TUAMidPower.pdf

The center of radiation for the new antenna is supposed to be 26m (~85') above ground level.

By comparison, the KTVD analog transmitter is mounted 74m (~242') AGL.

If nothing else, this will get KRMA's transmitter up above the level of the KTVD transmitter building…

It looks like this is what they've been saying all along - they're likely putting a transmitter up on the KTVD tower.

One thing they definitely are doing is moving from their RF Technologies SFNstar antenna on the ice bridge to a Dielectric TUA-C2-12/24H-T cardioid on the tower:

http://www.dielectric.com/broadcast/brochures/TUAMidPower.pdf

The center of radiation for the new antenna is supposed to be 26m (~85') above ground level.

By comparison, the KTVD analog transmitter is mounted 74m (~242') AGL.

If nothing else, this will get KRMA's transmitter up above the level of the KTVD transmitter building…

I don't think that is quite right. If I got the coversion from NAD27 to NAD83 correct, and I am interpretting Google Earth correctly, this appears to be a new tower about 200 feet east of the KPXC building. I sure don't see any structures at that location on Google Earth

According to the Application
Antenna Location Coordinates: (NAD 27)
Latitude: Degrees 39 Minutes 40 Seconds 25 N
Longitude: Degrees 105 Minutes 13 Seconds 1 W

The KPXC tower is listed at:
39° 40' 24.00" N Latitude
105° 13' 3.00 " W Longitude (NAD 27)

If the coordinates are off a little bit, it could actually be the current KPXC tower.

In either case, if I am interpretting things right, this should be very good news for the Ls. (Louisville, Lafayette, Longmont, and Loveland)

The next big question is WHEN??

I don't have time to dig through the details, but it is about time they got serious about DTV again. They were great pioneers in the early years in Denver but really dropped the ball the last few years. I hope this is a good sign.
:)

I don't have time to dig through the details, but it is about time they got serious about DTV again. They were great pioneers in the early years in Denver but really dropped the ball the last few years. I hope this is a good sign.
:)

No, to do that they'd have to do something other than run SD "Create" programming most of the day and night.

It will be interesting to see if, when analog goes away, they drop Create or start a new subchannel for it and go the multicasting route like KBDI rather than the HD route.

I heard back from KUSA regarding the first portion of Leno being shown in SD. To paraphrase the responses from each of two individuals (email addresses below), sending out Leno in SD is operator error, they will try to minimize the error in the future, and how they address the problem (to fix it) is an internal matter which they do not share outside of the organization. At least they replied.

What struck me about the responses was, reading between the lines, a lack of concern by KUSA on this issue. There was no apology-type statement, like "we're sorry this has occurred" and they used the term "minimize" rather than something like "correct" when describing what will be done to fix the issue (an internal matter).

If you'd like to share you sentiments regarding this issue, the email addresses are:
Program Director - mark.cornetta@9news.com
Engineer - ken.highberger@9news.com

What struck me about the responses was, reading between the lines, a lack of concern by KUSA on this issue. There was no apology-type statement, like "we're sorry this has occurred" and they used the term "minimize" rather than something like "correct" when describing what will be done to fix the issue (an internal matter).

"It's terribly easy for people in the TV business to get full of themselves and take themselves far too seriously."

-- Tim Russert (1950-2008)

Got that, KUSA?

Does anyone know where Channel 2 KWGN is broadcasting their digital signal from? I lost channel four about 4-5 months ago so finally I went back up in my attic and positioned my Antenna away from downtown and back towards lookout mountain. Now I get 4, 7, 9, 20, and Fox no problem. Channel 6 and especially channel 2 are now very low.

Weren't all the Denver stations planning on broadcasting full power from lookout mountain soon?

Steve in Denver

Looks like KDEV-TV/DT is now KQCK-TV/DT and KDEV-LP is now KQDK-CA.

The change to KQCK caught my eye on their station ID which I then confirmed on the FCC web site. I can't get KDEV-LP/KQDK-CA, but the FCC shows the change.

11.1 is like a box of chocolates: You never know what you're gonna get.

Haha, maybe it's KQCK "The Quack" given their technical skills... =)

- Trip

Does anyone know where Channel 2 KWGN is broadcasting their digital signal from?

They've been broadcasting from their own tower on Lookout for years now.

Does anyone know where Channel 2 KWGN is broadcasting their digital signal from? I lost channel four about 4-5 months ago so finally I went back up in my attic and positioned my Antenna away from downtown and back towards lookout mountain. Now I get 4, 7, 9, 20, and Fox no problem. Channel 6 and especially channel 2 are now very low.

Weren't all the Denver stations planning on broadcasting full power from lookout mountain soon?

Steve in Denver

Use a compass and aim your antenna using the magnetic azimuths given when you enter your location into the following:

http://www.tvfool.com/

Last night while watching 'News Hour with Jim Lehrer', (recorded on DVR) we noticed gravely sound early in the program that cleared up.

We also noticed picture changes in the analog program view on our HDTV. Viewed in 'letterbox' format, this program has, customarily filled in the sides with varicolored rectangles. Last night, with a 'bink' the picture was interrupted and changed more than a dozen times. The varicolored rectangles were replaced with full width picture. Some times for a short time following a transition large grey '1080i.##.##' appeared on the screen. I do not remember what numbers were in the ## positions. They may have been constant or changed. The Picture Quality seemed pretty crisp.

'Washington Week' has had a 'full width picture' for a while.

It would seem that KMRA is gradually improving some of its equipment.

We still cannot receive KMRA-DT.

According to two of my tuners, KRMA-DT is broadcasting on both frequencies 18 and 24 tonight. Can that be right?

It can. I just checked, KRMA has a CP for a translator in Boulder, K24HQ-D. 250 watts. See here:

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?call=k24hq

And coverage map:

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=LD1249244.html

- Trip

It's really hard to believe, but, despite my emails to KUSA over the last week, they screwed up Leno again tonight. For the first 7 minutes, there was no sound on either the digital or analog signal (from my Dish box for both and digital OTA), although the digital was in HD. When the sound was restored, the digital reverted to SD until the monologue was over.

Does this station just not get it?

From the link that Trip provided for the KRMA translator, it looks like it's not just a CP, it's licensed. Does it pass HD?

I have to wonder why KRMA wouldn't publicize this translator as serving some of the area shadowed from its full power facility, especially since many Avs members have complained about reception in Boulder/Louisville/Longmont. I guess what I seem to think is common sense isn't apparently shared by the management of KRMA.

It's really hard to believe, but, despite my emails to KUSA over the last week, they screwed up Leno again tonight. For the first 7 minutes, there was no sound on either the digital or analog signal (from my Dish box for both and digital OTA), although the digital was in HD. When the sound was restored, the digital reverted to SD until the monologue was over.

Does this station just not get it?

It's not a matter of whether they get it, it's a matter of whether they care.

I'm surprised they had that issue with OTA, but I'm thinking a fairly small number of people are actually watching the OTA HD signal.

For example, a few weeks back KCNC-DT was running Dr. Phil with no audio on the digital transmitter for about 20 minutes before I finally called and spoke to someone in engineering. It took them about a minute, at which time the signal pixellated badly and came back, with audio (I suspect they hit a reset button on the encoder…)

From the link that Trip provided for the KRMA translator, it looks like it's not just a CP, it's licensed. Does it pass HD?
.Yes, it does pass HD - last night it was showing 6-1 and 6-2 exactly the same as on RF18.

Yes, it does pass HD - last night it was showing 6-1 and 6-2 exactly the same as on RF18.

18 or 24 or whatever KRMA-DT still does not make it to northeast Longmont!

Is there a 6-? carrying 'News Hour with Jim Lehrer' and 'Washington Week'?

18 or 24 or whatever KRMA-DT still does not make it to northeast Longmont! Is there a 6-? carrying 'News Hour with Jim Lehrer' and 'Washington Week'?

Nope. From midnight to 6 p.m., 6-1 runs PBS Create, a collection of cooking shows, travelogues and the like produced and broadcast in standard definition. From 6 o'clock to midnight, the subchannel switches over to PBS|HD, a 1080i service that runs many of the PBS top-tier shows -- Nova, Frontline, American Experience, Masterpiece Theatre, Nature -- but not any of the public-affairs programming you seek. Those of us with HDTVs must watch NBR, NewsHour, Washington Week and the like the same way you get them, on channel 6 analog. Mheh.

After a couple minutes of no sound on Jay Leno I changed the station and watched Dave Leteerman which was in Hi-Def and it had sound!

I was killing time with the remote control this afternoon and came across a digital blip -- but nothing approaching a lock -- at 21.1. I've looked up FCC and my own TVFool results pre- and post-transition, and couldn't find anything. KTVD-TV is on the adjacent channel, of course, but my receiver's signal-strength meter doesn't register anything arising solely from adjacent-channel analog bleedover. Any ideas?

BTW, this idle time killer was prompted by the earlier discussion about KRMA's 250-watt DTV translator at 24.1 in Boulder. Checked that one, and my results were the same as 21.1 -- teens and twenties on the signal meter, but no lock. Kinda surprised I got anything at all, given their low ERP, the one-edge deflection between there and here, the distance of more than 30 miles, plus an antenna system that isn't the most powerful in the world.

KFCT-DT Fort Collins.

- Trip

It can. I just checked, KRMA has a CP for a translator in Boulder, K24HQ-D. 250 watts. See here:
http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?call=k24hq
From those coordinates, it is just SE of 30th and Baseline and 52 meters above ground level.

Sounds like it is on top of one of the CU dormitory buildings.

Thanks, Trip. Missed KFCT in the FCC search, and forgot all about it in part because it's not listed in my TVFool results.

KFCT transmits on digital channel 21 but they remap to 22-1. If you saw 21-1, it was probably a blip from KXRM, Colorado Springs, which, ironically, transmits on digital channel 22. KXRM is very low power - 51 kW ERP - so if you received a blip from them, it probably was some atmospheric caused skip.

KFCT transmits on digital channel 21 but they remap to 22-1. If you saw 21-1, it was probably a blip from KXRM, Colorado Springs, which, ironically, transmits on digital channel 22. KXRM is very low power - 51 kW ERP - so if you received a blip from them, it probably was some atmospheric caused skip.

There was no channel mapping involved in this example. I picked up a weak signal at 21-1 by tuning to it manually, as it's too weak to scan it into the receiver's channel list. If I tune to 22 or 22-0 (analog), I get a very snowy KFCT. I get zero signal strength when tuned to 22-1, so the weak signal at 21-1 is KFCT. I'd probably pull it in with a better antenna.

Our location has visual line of sight to LOM, RP and many points north as we're on the side of a gradual ridge facing in those directions. Since we're not close to the top of the ridge, we have two chances for signal reception from the south and southeast: slim, and none. My TVFool results show all Colorado Springs stations at 2-edge diffractions and line-of-sight heights in the hundreds of feet. For example, KKTV-DT, the "best" of the bunch at a signal strength of -95 dBm, is at 932 feet!

Can someone suggest a good roof-mount antenna (the smaller the better for WAF), I was thinking something like the square shooter, for OTA HD in North Thornton (138th and Holly).

Also, are all the channels broadcasting from Lookout Mountain finally? Has this improved reception as much as everyone hoped? Thanks- Shawn

...

Also, are all the channels broadcasting from Lookout Mountain finally? Has this improved reception as much as everyone hoped? Thanks- Shawn

Yes! 2,4,7,9,20,31,(14,25) and I managed to turn my attic DB8 antenna far enough west to pick up 12 at Squaw Mountain also!

The only digital station we are missing is 6 and I think(hope) they are raising their antenna so we can 'see' it in northeast Longmont.

It's really hard to believe, but, despite my emails to KUSA over the last week, they screwed up Leno again tonight. For the first 7 minutes, there was no sound on either the digital or analog signal (from my Dish box for both and digital OTA), although the digital was in HD. When the sound was restored, the digital reverted to SD until the monologue was over.

Does this station just not get it?

Are contributors here seeing these KUSA-DT screw-ups on the OTA signal, the DBS version (Dish; DirecTV), or both?

Posted by CEB II:
Are contributors here seeing these KUSA-DT screw-ups on the OTA signal, the DBS version (Dish; DirecTV), or both?

I received 3 emails from Mark Cornetta of KUSA over the weekend. He stated that Dish picks up the KUSA signals (analog and digital) OTA. He didn't mention DirectTV but he also stated that Comcast gets fiber feeds. So if you have Dish, you get the same signal as OTA, same screw ups.

The inference I got from the emails is that he was not at all pleased to have Leno screwed up twice in the same week and that he was going to find out what happened. In the process, I found out that Leno starts precisely at 10:36:54 PM. I didn't realize programming timetables were that detailed. Apparently, you can set your watch to the beginning of Leno.:D

Yes! 2,4,7,9,20,31,(14,25) and I managed to turn my attic DB8 antenna far enough west to pick up 12 at Squaw Mountain also!

The only digital station we are missing is 6 and I think(hope) they are raising their antenna so we can 'see' it in northeast Longmont.


Excellent, thanks! Where are you located at? I assume your signal is pretty strong with that big antenna. I am wondering if I should go that route as well (attic mount) or if I can get good results with a smaller roof mount.

Are contributors here seeing these KUSA-DT screw-ups on the OTA signal, the DBS version (Dish; DirecTV), or both?I can't speak for Dish, but I see the same screw-ups on DIRECTV as on OTA.

I can't speak for Dish, but I see the same screw-ups on DIRECTV as on OTA.

Anyone see these problems on Comcast where they have a direct cable feed from KUSA-DT? It is apparent to me, based on anecdotal evidence, that KUSA gives priority to Comcast since they seem to think that is how most of their viewers see their programming.

I have seen more than a few Leno monologues in SD via Comcast. KUSA does not appear to give any priority or preference to Comcast, w.r.t. programming.

I have seen more than a few Leno monologues in SD via Comcast. KUSA does not appear to give any priority or preference to Comcast, w.r.t. programming.

I just meant that since KUSA seems more concerned about Comcast subscribers (e.g., always give you the Comcast channel info, never the OTA sub-channel info), and since they have a cable connection for DTV from KUSA, maybe the problems with Leno in SD were confined to OTA and the satellite providers who take their DTV signal OTA. Since you are reporting that Comcast subscribers see the same problem, apparently it lies further up the broadcasting chain. I guess KUSA just doesn't care much about DTV viewers in general, that is, beyond all the hype about all their news shows being in HD. Transition is less than a year away and they are still screwing around like it was 2004 or something. Somehow, I just don't think that the transition is going to go off without a lot of pain the day it arrives.

I was just watching the 2 1/2 men on 2-1 at 6. I was surprised to see that it was 16:9. Thought that was pretty cool so I decided to watch the 6:30 one. Of course, it was in 4:3 with black bars. :rolleyes:

I was just watching the 2 1/2 men on 2-1 at 6. I was surprised to see that it was 16:9. Thought that was pretty cool so I decided to watch the 6:30 one. Of course, it was in 4:3 with black bars. :rolleyes:

Wow! That is surpising. I didn't watch it tonight, but every time I've turned it on, it's in SD. That gets on my nerves when they're running a show that I know darned well was originally produced in HD, but they don't display it in HD. Oh well, I am hoping that things will get better when the transition is complete and the digital signal is no longer considered secondary. I also hope that KUSA gets rid of those stupid "high definition" banners on each side of their newscast. It's kind of annoying to hear them brag about having an HD newscast when they just fill up the screen with useless garbage half of the time.

I have Comcast basic, receiving HD channels via QAM, and I am getting the SD monologues as well. On the bright side, I've been watching Letterman for the first time in years...that "Great Moments in Presidential Speeches" bit is a hoot! :-)

Excellent, thanks! Where are you located at? I assume your signal is pretty strong with that big antenna. I am wondering if I should go that route as well (attic mount) or if I can get good results with a smaller roof mount.

Near 17th & Pace
I also have Terk TV-55 to help assure picking up VHF

I was just watching the 2 1/2 men on 2-1 at 6. I was surprised to see that it was 16:9. Thought that was pretty cool so I decided to watch the 6:30 one. Of course, it was in 4:3 with black bars. :rolleyes:

Wow! KWGN got it right tonight. Both episodes of 2 1/2 men were in HD. :)

ELR is 16:9 HD also. I'm lovin' this!

The FCC lifted a freeze a few days ago regarding limiting stations' ERP and coverage contours. I went thru all of the FCC info for the local stations and have summarized what each station plans to do (or not do) to increase coverage of their OTA signal. The RF channel numbers are post-transition.

KWGN 2-1 RF 34:
Has already been granted an increase in ERP from 450 kW to 1 mW. Requested to increase the height of its antenna from the current 248 meters to 336 meters.

KUPN 3-1 RF 23:
Requested to change City of License from Sterling to Ft. Morgan and increase its ERP from 480 kw to 1 mW. This will get the signal into metro Denver except for the SW suburbs, like southern JeffCo.

KCNC 4-1 RF 35:
Requested to raise antenna a few meters, raise ERP from 978 kW to 1 mW, and change its directional signal pattern with much less emphasis on power to the west.

KGWN 5-1 RF 30:
No changes requested. Their current digital signal falls short of their analog signal's coverage. Guess that's OK with them.

KOAA 5-1 RF 42:
No changes requested.

KRMA 6-1 RF 18:
Reqested to raise their antenna from 331 meters to 344 meters, about 40 feet, and increase their ERP from 115 kW to 1 mW. (Yeah!)

KMGH 7-1 RF 7:
Reqested an increase in ERP from 2.8 kW to 27 kW

KTSC 8-1 RF 8:
Requested an increase in ERP from 2.5 kW to 22.5 kw and to raise their antenna from 372 meters to 728 meters (huge).

KUSA 9-1 RF 9:
Requested to raise ERP from 6 kW to 45 kW.

KKTV 11-1 RF 10:
No changes requested.

KQCK 11-1 RF 11 (formerly KDEV):
Requested an ERP increase from 16 kW to 18 kW and slight change in their directional signal pattern.

KBDI 12-1 RF 13:
No changes requested.

KRDO 13-1 RF 24:
No changes requested.

KTFD 14-1 RF 15:
Requested an increase in ERP from 200 kW to 1 mW.

KTVD 20-1 RF 19:
Requested an increase in ERP from 96 kW (its current full power authoriziation) to 1 mW.

KXRM 21-1 RF 22:
No changes requested. Apparently this station is satisfied with its pathetic 51 kw signal.

KFCT 22-1 RF 21:
No changes requested.

KDEN 25-1 RF 29:
Requested an ERP increase from 540 kW to 1 mW.

KLWY 27-1 RF 27:
This Cheyenne station will flash cut on 2-17-09. Its requested ERP is 169 kW.

KDVR 31-1 RF 32:
Has been granted its request to raise ERP from current 223 kW to 1 mW and requested to raise its antenna 17 meters, or just over 50 feet.

KRMT 40-1 RF 41:
Requested to raise ERP from current 74.8 kW to 1 mW and change signal pattern to favor east of transmitter in southern JeffCo. Signal pattern doesn't include Ft. Collins.

KPJR 38-1 RF 38:
New station with city of license in Greeley. Requested an increase in ERP from 1.2 kW to 1 mW. Denver metro coverage similar to KUPN.

KCEC 50-1 RF 51:
No changes requested:

KWHD 53-1 RF 46:
No changes in ERP requested but wants to move from RF 46 to RF 45.

KPXC 59-1 RF 43:
No changes requested.

You missed one.

KFCT currently operates at 763' 50 kW ND, and has a permit to go up to 1000 kW ND from that height.

KFCT applied for 1302' 825 kW ND. Looks like they want to be located on a mountain, near but not the same as KQCK.

- Trip

The FCC lifted a freeze a few days ago regarding limiting stations' ERP and coverage contours. I went thru all of the FCC info for the local stations and have summarized what each station plans to do (or not do) to increase coverage of their OTA signal. The RF channel numbers are post-transition.
...

KRMA 6-1 RF 18:
Reqested to raise their antenna from 331 meters to 344 meters, about 40 feet, and increase their ERP from 115 kW to 1 mW. (Yeah!)

...


Thank you!

Does that get them up off the Ice Bridge?

The FCC lifted a freeze a few days ago regarding limiting stations' ERP and coverage contours. I went thru all of the FCC info for the local stations and have summarized what each station plans to do (or not do) to increase coverage of their OTA signal.

An awful lot of work went into compiling this comprehensive and lengthy list. All hats off to Mike for putting forth the effort!

An awful lot of work went into compiling this comprehensive and lengthy list. All hats off to Mike for putting forth the effort!

Amen to that!! And thank goodness, it looks like KRMA is finally getting their act together. I'm also excited to see that KQCK will be increasing their signal slightly. I receive it reasonably well but with dropouts here and there, so I'm hoping that the increase will stabilize it for me. Can't wait for February!!

Thanks for posting this, Mike.

Just curious. Do these changes go into effect after the transition, 2/2009, or can the stations boost power before the cutoff date?

It doesn't look like it will do much for me in any case -- I get most of the Denver metro stations well with my attic mounted antenna (I'm near University and Wildcat Reserve in HR), except I don't get a whiff of 11-1 and 12-1 is very weak -- I can get a lock on my tv, but not on my mythtv (Linux) rig.

An awful lot of work went into compiling this comprehensive and lengthy list. All hats off to Mike for putting forth the effort!

I agree heartily!
Thanks Mike!!

Phil

An awful lot of work went into compiling this comprehensive and lengthy list. All hats off to Mike for putting forth the effort!

Three cheers for Mike. Good job. Atta boy!

So KMGH-DT is currently at only 2.8 KW and KUSA-DT is at only 6 KW. That doesn't jive with what KUSA engineering emailed me last month, but it does explain their less than RP signal at my house.

More power Mr. Scott! But Captain, any more and we'll blow our station's utility budget.

Thought I'd add some clarification to my post regarding local stations based on some of the comments posted.

The changes in ERP/service areas (contours) requested by the stations are not automatic. There is really no reason to think the requests will be denied by the FCC, but you never know. Interference with other stations would be the principal, though not only reason, to deny these requests.

The effective date for the requested changes will be, if granted, in most cases the date the FCC approves them. It is my understanding that there is no tie-in between the requests and 2-17-09 except in cases dependent upon 2-17-09, such as KLWY, which is flash cutting, or KJPR, which must wait until KBDI abandons channel 38 and goes to channel 13. Also, KWGN previously filed Form 301 stating their intentions not to maximize their signal until well into 2009. I didn't note anything that changes that, so their move up the tower will probably be concurrent with the ERP change.

The requests by KMGH and KUSA are post 2-17-09 since they are going back to their analog channels. As a result, the changes in ERP requested are not related to their current ERP's on channels 17 and 16, respectively.

As far as KFCT is concerned, Trip in Va is correct, I somehow missed that one. I'm thinking their change request wasn't posted when I compiled my listing, but it may have been just late night fatique also.

In reviewing the KFCT request, dated 6-25-08 (yesterday), I found some interesting info. Earlier, in March 2008, KFCT filed to reduce their coverage area so as not to duplicate KDVR's coverage area since KFCT is a satellite of KDVR. That made sense as I could never understand the previous rationale of overlapping coverage between the two stations. (I receive both of them, and I'm in south metro). That filing was made by Fox Television, the station's owner.

KFCT's current filing/request to move to a new tower, go to 825 kW ERP, etc. appears to be a total change in philosophy. But, this request was filed by "Community Television of Colorado License LLC" with an address in Kentucky (suburban Cincinnati). I did not see any change of ownership filings regarding KFCT.

Since there are rumors that KDVR is on the selling block by Fox, could it be that Fox has sold KFCT and that their satellite relationship with KDVR will be ending? KDVR's main service area is northern CO, and it seems that between KDVR's signal reaching KFCT's service area, along with KLWY's eventual digital signal with Fox affiliation also covering a good portion of KFCT's service area, the need for KFCT's Fox affiliation appears nil/redundant.

Thanks Mike for the great update on Denver DTV.

Based on the coordinates given for the latest CP for KRMA of N39 degrees 40 minutes 25 seconds and W105 Degrees 13 minutes 1 second.

I've been doing some work with Delorme Topo which uses a WGS84 Coordinate system which is nearly identical to NAD83. From what I have found, it looks like the new tower that was approved by Jefferson County is North and slightly East of the present Ice Bridge location, but with less interference from the ridge top to the North. That coupled with their new antenna with far more coverage to the North, maybe we in the North Shadowlands have a good chance of finally seeing KRMA-DT.

I noticed that the FCC apparently uses NAD27 or NAD83 coordinates in different places. The coordinates given above appear to be NAD27 so the tower is probably about 150 feet farther west from the location in the attachment which puts it farther up on the ridge - More Better!

The attached picture is a screenshot from Delorme Topo.

I don't think that is quite right. If I got the coversion from NAD27 to NAD83 correct, and I am interpretting Google Earth correctly, this appears to be a new tower about 200 feet east of the KPXC building. I sure don't see any structures at that location on Google Earth

According to the Application
Antenna Location Coordinates: (NAD 27)
Latitude: Degrees 39 Minutes 40 Seconds 25 N
Longitude: Degrees 105 Minutes 13 Seconds 1 W

The KPXC tower is listed at:
39° 40' 24.00" N Latitude
105° 13' 3.00 " W Longitude (NAD 27)

If the coordinates are off a little bit, it could actually be the current KPXC tower.

In either case, if I am interpretting things right, this should be very good news for the Ls. (Louisville, Lafayette, Longmont, and Loveland)

The next big question is WHEN??

Thanks Mike for the great update on Denver DTV.

Based on the coordinates given for the latest CP for KRMA of N39 degrees 40 minutes 25 seconds and W105 Degrees 13 minutes 1 second.

I've been doing some work with Delorme Topo which uses a WGS84 Coordinate system which is nearly identical to NAD83. From what I have found, it looks like the new tower that was approved by Jefferson County is North and slightly East of the present Ice Bridge location, but with less interference from the ridge top to the North. That coupled with their new antenna with far more coverage to the North, maybe we in the North Shadowlands have a good chance of finally seeing KRMA-DT.

The attached picture is a screenshot from Delorme Topo.

I agree it looks like good news for those of us to the north. One of the problems with the Topo maps and the Coverage calculation specified by the FCC is that they ignore structures. The KPXC building appears to be between the ice bridge location and the north locations. I believe that building is effecting the current actual coverage, but was not allowed for in the calculated coverage. The new location appears to be east of the KPXC building, so that it should not effect coverage to the north, east, and west. I would think that the new coverage maps should be much more accurate for those directions.

On a related issue, in the memo
To: Board of County Commissioners
From: Tim Carl, Development & Transportation Director
CC: Jim Moore, County Administrator
Eric Butler, Assistant County Attorney
Date: April 1, 2008
Re: Remand of Mt. Morrison Rezoning Proposal (Case No. 01-108495RZ)
The proposed shorter tower can accommodate those stations involved in the Public Interest Communication (PIC) group, which include Rocky Mountain PBS Channel 6 (KRMA-TV), Channel 18 (KRMA-DT), Denver Educational Broadcasting (KUVO-FM), Colorado Public Radio (KVOD-FM), Channel 59-TV and DTV, Channel 14-DTV, Channel 23-LPTV, Channel 63-LPTV, another DTV station and possibly several more low power television stations; KIMN-FM and up to seven more FM stations, and other communication antennas, including cellular, paging, PCS, two-way and point-to-point microwave relay. This proposal also included the removal of an existing 60-foot tall tower on Mt. Morrison. In addition, the existing Channel 6 tower on Lookout Mountain would be removed.
There seems to be some difference on what the full power TV stations are doing with the April 1, 2008 Jeffco decision.

The KTFD Application filed 6/24/2008 shows:
1. Channel Number: DTV 15 Analog TV, if any 14
3. Antenna Location Coordinates: (NAD 27)
Latitude: Degrees 39 Minutes 40 Seconds 17 North
Longitude: Degrees 105 Minutes 13 Seconds 6 West
4. Antenna Structure Registration Number: 1023484
5. Antenna Location Site Elevation Above Mean Sea Level: 2343 meters
6. Overall Tower Height Above Ground Level: 83.5 meters
7. Height of Radiation Center Above Ground Level: 42 meters
8. Height of Radiation Center Above Average Terrain : 351 meters
9. Maximum Effective Radiated Power (average power): 1000 kW

That seems to be the current KTFD-DT location, which is where KRMA-DT is also currently located, although KTFD-DT is 30 meters above KRMA, which would put them above the KPXC structures.

I cannot find anything for KPXC after 4/22/2008, and I believe that was the STA to locate on the KDEN tower about 5 miles west and a little north of Fort Lupton.

So far, only KRMA-DT seems to have requested the move to the new tower authorized by Jeffco. Anyone know what is really going on?

Kenavs, you are right regarding KTFD. Since they just filed this maximization request, my thought is that they intend to stay where they are. Perhaps the various TV/radio/other services using Mt. Morrison have agree to spread the wealth between two towers - KTFD's and the new one that KRMA will apparently occupy - and add services such as KDEO channel 23 and some of the other LP's that are going digital also - tvfool.com gives a good listing.

Regarding KPXC, they filed to move to the KDEN tower, requested a change in service contour resulting in a shift of population coverage, etc. and received approval on 3-18-08, just before the JeffCo 4-1-08 memo. Perhaps they haven't had time to prepare a new filing to move back to Mt. Morrision or, perhaps, they are now bound by contract to stay on KDEN's tower, or, perhaps they just plan to run with what they've got. This station is not what I would term pro-active. It didn't even put up a coat hanger antenna under an approval STA for temp digital service.

Any news about a LCG tower tour/picnic or KCNC-HD studio tour?

Yeah! That would be fun and appropriate. After years and years of discussion and listening to all the BS from Scare, I think we deserve at least a hot dog and a coke. In my case, for needing to be protected and escorted out by the Sheriff for emphatically telling the truth to the J Co Commissioners way back when.

Wait.... maybe some steaks, wine and beer would be better!

Thought I'd add some clarification to my post regarding local stations based on some of the comments posted.

The requests by KMGH and KUSA are post 2-17-09 since they are going back to their analog channels. As a result, the changes in ERP requested are not related to their current ERP's on channels 17 and 16, respectively.

Oh yeah, the vaunted 6 KW post-transition from KUSA. Count me skeptical of those ERP levels for KUSA and KMGH post-transition, VHF or not. Based on the current ERP of those channels, I don't think digital is going to make up that much difference and I thiink a lot of folks in the distance won't receive the broadcasts they expect. Just my 2 cents.

Next February should be very interesting. With the channel changes and power adjustments, I'm sure that I'll have to get on the roof to make a, hopefully, final adjustment to the antenna.

I do wonder what percentage of analog OTA viewers will be shocked and clueless when their TV reception ceases.

I do wonder what percentage of analog OTA viewers will be shocked and clueless when their TV reception ceases.

I would be susprised if anyone was truly clueless about the transition. I've seen a ton of commercials about the subject, so unless a person lives under a rock and only watches a half hour of TV every 6 months, I don't see how they could avoid seeing or hearing something. Then again, many people may just be apathetic until they are forced to convert in February. That's one reason that I'm glad the FCC or whomever decided to set a firm date for conversion. Otherwise, it would just drag out forever. I wonder how many people are still using Windows 95/98? It's kind of a human nature thing. Many people are adverse to change and won't bother making changes until they are forced to do so.

I would be susprised if anyone was truly clueless about the transition. I've seen a ton of commercials about the subject, so unless a person lives under a rock and only watches a half hour of TV every 6 months, I don't see how they could avoid seeing or hearing something. Then again, many people may just be apathetic until they are forced to convert in February. That's one reason that I'm glad the FCC or whomever decided to set a firm date for conversion. Otherwise, it would just drag out forever. I wonder how many people are still using Windows 95/98? It's kind of a human nature thing. Many people are adverse to change and won't bother making changes until they are forced to do so.
And the FCC has targeted two communities this fall that will convert totally to digital. This will force issues early that they did not anticipate and give them six months to resolve before the forced conversion for everyone else. - I consider that good project management.

I think that almost everyone who owns a TV has heard about the transition; however, many of those still don't have any idea of what it means or if/how it affects them. I know my mother-in-law was totally confused about the transition information and she is on cable. But, she doesn't go on the internet (you'd be surprised how many people don't) and almost every TV spot about the transition directs you to the internet for further information. Of course I've explained what's going on (she still really doesn't understand it) and that it won't affect her current daily TV viewing and may afford her the opportunity to use her unused TV (assuming she can get reception with a set top antenna in her condo (Arvada side of Stanley Lake) after transition).

I also have a 76 year old retired engineering manager friend in Aurora who didn't have any idea what all the DTV transition TV spots were about, so I explained it to him. He also doesn't use the internet (his wife does, but she doesn't have any interest in that sort of stuff). Another retired technical manager in Arvada (73 years old) found out from me what the transition meant for his 90+ year old mother who uses OTA for her TV viewing (he has cable).

The bottom line is that there are probably quite a few folks who will be in shock an awe at transition time, mostly seniors. Add to that any glitches in the stations implementation of the transition and 2/17/09 won't be a very pleasant day for some folks.

I'm still wondering why my Vizio VX32L HDTV doesn't recognize KRMA-DT anymore when it did just a few months ago. I've always assumed that it was probably a signal strength thing, but I had no way to verify that.

This week I purchased a DTVPal converter box to use with an anlog TV and VCR, so now I finally have a piece of equipment that has a signal strength meter. I expected my KRMA-DT signal to be extremely low, but to my surprise, the signal strength on the DTVPal shows 80% which is the same as I am getting for KBDI-DT. The TV has no problem with KBDI nor KQCK which I only receive in the 60% range, so why is it not recognizing KRMA-DT?

Does anyone know if there is something odd about the data that KRMA-DT is broadcasting i.e. is there something weird in the data stream that may be causing the Vizio tuner to choke? The DTVPal and my Philips DVDR3576H don't seem to have any problem with KRMA-DT, so it's puzzling why the Vizio cannot seem to recognize it. Unfortunately, there is no way to manually add a channel to the TV since digital channels can only be added via a channel scan on this model.

I know there is one other user here that has this model TV and has been having the same problem. Has anyone had this problem on any other equipment? Any idea what might be happening here?

I really miss being able to watch Nature is all of its HD glory!

I'm still wondering why my Vizio VX32L HDTV doesn't recognize KRMA-DT anymore when it did just a few months ago. I've always assumed that it was probably a signal strength thing, but I had no way to verify that.

This week I purchased a DTVPal converter box to use with an anlog TV and VCR, so now I finally have a piece of equipment that has a signal strength meter. I expected my KRMA-DT signal to be extremely low, but to my surprise, the signal strength on the DTVPal shows 80% which is the same as I am getting for KBDI-DT. The TV has no problem with KBDI nor KQCK which I only receive in the 60% range, so why is it not recognizing KRMA-DT?

Does anyone know if there is something odd about the data that KRMA-DT is broadcasting i.e. is there something weird in the data stream that may be causing the Vizio tuner to choke? The DTVPal and my Philips DVDR3576H don't seem to have any problem with KRMA-DT, so it's puzzling why the Vizio cannot seem to recognize it. Unfortunately, there is no way to manually add a channel to the TV since digital channels can only be added via a channel scan on this model.

I know there is one other user here that has this model TV and has been having the same problem. Has anyone had this problem on any other equipment? Any idea what might be happening here?

I really miss being able to watch Nature is all of its HD glory!

I am the other guy with a Vizio VX32L who lost KRMA-DT during a channel scan. I still have the problem. My second VX32L, that has not had a scan done in months, is still receiving 6-1, as are my Philips 42PF7320A, DVDR3575, and DVDR3576.

I did get an email through to someone in engineeringsupport@rmpbs.org, and asked them if they could reboot the psip generator, as that has solved problems in the past when some specific tuners had problems with 1 or both of the KRMA-DT subchannels. On 6-24-08 I got an email that: "The PSIP generator was rebooted this morning. Let us know if it helped." I replied that it had not helped me. I got a reply on 6-24 that: "The PSIP seems correct, since we use a consumer grade receiver to check our DTV signal (Samsung SIR-T451), and we have looked at the signal on our equipment. I went downstairs and did a rescan just to be sure." After that reply, I did a rescan on the problem Vizio, and it still could not find KRMA-DT.

If any Vizio users with any recent vintage Vizio (6-24 months old) have done a scan in the last month, I would love to hear whether it detected KRMA-DT (6-1 and 6-2).

IMPORTANT: I am not asking anyone with a Vizio to do a channel scan, as I fear they would lose KRMA-DT, if they currently have it.

If the problem seems to be effecting most Vizio TVs ,which I suspect it might, since I think they share a lot of hardware and firmware, maybe we could get a Vizio tech person to make contact with a KRMA engineer, to see if they can figure it out.

I got a reply on 6-24

Wow, two replies in one day!! You were luckier that I was. I contacted them via their web site about a month ago and have never heard a peep from them. Just sent them another note. We'll see if I get a reply.

I remember that when some people here were having trouble with another station, someone on the forum was able to capture some data on their computer and do some analysis of the PSIP data which revealed some anomalies. I'm wondering if that person might be willing to look into this problem. Any takers?

Hopefully this is related to the KRMA reception issue. Neither of my two Dish Network receivers can properly decode KFTD or KDEN. I have good signal strength and the stations both lock, but all I get is blank black screens. It's been this way for months. It doesn't really bother me since I don't watch Spanish language TV nor am I a soccer fan. I have no problem decoding either station on 3 other TV's with built in tuners, Vista MCE, or my Accurians, which I use as converter boxes on two analog TV's.

I saw some info elsewhere (and if I could remember I'd post a link) that both stations' PSIP data meets minimum requirements/is compliant but there is a quirk in the data that Dish Network receivers can't handle and Dish Network refuses to address the issue.

This Vizio/KRMA situation sounds similar. KRMA can't find anything wrong in their PSIP data and Vizio's tuner can't handle some innocuous quirk in that data.

New post about the tower on the City and Mountain News rag. Nothing really new, just more stupid whining.

City & Mountain News (http://www.citymtnviews.com/summer08/AT_Update_June08.php4)

New post about the tower on the City and Mountain New rag. Nothing really new, just more stupid whining.

City & Mountain News (http://www.citymtnviews.com/summer08/AT_Update_June08.php4)

Thanks, Ernie. Talk about bovine excrement: "male executives." "The industry." These are buzzwords intended to get the moonbat, tinfoil-hat crowd excited.

Oh, and the rag's "benefits for 12% of viewers who receive television signals free over-the-air" is off by three percentage points. Per the pay-TV oligopoly's own figures, the Denver metro cable/satellite penetration rate is 85 percent. That translates to either 336,000 people, or 420,000, based on the population figures in the FCC allocation tables. Depending on which figure you believe, of course.

I suppose you don't have to worry about uninformed citizens possibly getting creamed by tornadoes, or hail, or flash floods when you live in such a picture-perfect place like the JeffCo foothills. Check out this page (http://www.citymtnviews.com/subscribe.php4? target=blank) to sign up for a "FREE subscription." From the top of the page:
Rather than buy a mail list based on income and status, we want to give Views to JeffCo residents who request it!

Enough said?

From the same article:

The existing KRMA-Channel 6 tower, which causes severe interference at the historic Boettcher Mansion and Lookout Nature Center, will be removed.

Under FCC regulations, were this actually true, wouldn't KRMA have had to address this oh, say, when they started broadcasting from Lookout?

Not that truth is important.

Wouldn't you love to lock these folks and those living around Mt. Morrison together in the same room for awhile?

I also love this bit under the heading "Other media companies exploit preemption":

The U.S. Senator rejected a request to meet with citizen representatives who are concerned about proliferation in their residential area by other broadcasters. Tribune Corporation is expanding use of the KWGN-Channel 2 tower immediately east of historic Buffalo Bill’s Grave buried in 1917. Fox 31 could also exploit the legislation and lease space on its tower to Jefferson County for $1 per year.

Oh no! Not county transmitters on the tower! That could be for public safety use!

Not KWGN increasing use of their own tower, located east of Buffalo Bill's grave, exactly where it's been for what, forty years or more?

From the same article:



Under FCC regulations, were this actually true, wouldn't KRMA have had to address this oh, say, when they started broadcasting from Lookout?

Not that truth is important.

Wouldn't you love to lock these folks and those living around Mt. Morrison together in the same room for awhile?

I also love this bit under the heading "Other media companies exploit preemption":



Oh no! Not county transmitters on the tower! That could be for public safety use!

Not KWGN increasing use of their own tower, located east of Buffalo Bill's grave, exactly where it's been for what, forty years or more?


I don't think Buffalo Bill will notice any changes in RF radiation if there are any. Funny how they throw in the Buffalo Bill reference like somehow RF broadcast changes are now sacrilegious.

If Buffalo Bill gets enough radiation, he could be re-animated.

Can anyone give me a suggestion for a good antenna? I posted my tvfool info here - http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1044577 I'm near Hampden and I-25, about 25 miles from lookout mountain. I'd liked to put it in the attic - the old one is already there. Plus I have Directv and I can't convince the wife we need an antenna on the roof in addition to the dish on the side of the house. She doesn't appreciate wanting to use PIP for football season.

Thanks,

Dennis

Can anyone give me a suggestion for a good antenna? I posted my tvfool info here - http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1044577 I'm near Hampden and I-25, about 25 miles from lookout mountain. I'd liked to put it in the attic - the old one is already there. Plus I have Directv and I can't convince the wife we need an antenna on the roof in addition to the dish on the side of the house. She doesn't appreciate wanting to use PIP for football season.

Thanks,

Dennis

Your respondent over on the "Antenna Advice" thread suggested the Winegard HD-1080. Its gain figures are fair for UHF, but actually worse than rabbit ears on VHF-high (channels 7, 9 and 13 post-transition). You'd need a preamplifier (another $50-$70) to make it work OK. But it is compact, making it easy to install/turn in an attic.

What do you have for an attic antenna now? Take a close look at it: If it's damaged or corroded, you'll need a new one, but it should be in good shape if it's always been in the attic. You might want to snap a picture of it, then compare the photo to antenna models shown on sites like winegard.com, channelmaster.com, etc. Regardless of maker, antenna designs are all pretty similar, so this exercise should let you know whether your antenna is VHF only, UHF only, or a combination VHF/UHF model. If you have the latter, and it's fairly sizable (a boom length of 60 inches or more), perhaps your current antenna is all you need.

Make sure it's pointed correctly. It should be aimed very slightly to the north of due west -- no more than 18 degrees. Buy a new length of RG-6 coax cable, plus a balun for connecting the cable to the antenna if necessary (total cost: $20 or less), run the coax directly to your receiver and attach it to the antenna port. Scan for over-the-air signals, both analog and digital, and see what you get. Right now, all network stations' digital broadcasts are UHF, so check the receiver's signal-strength meter to see how you're doing there. You can't do this to check VHF-high signals right now, but if you tune to analog channels 7, 9 and 12 now and they look fairly clear (a little bit of graininess is OK, but heavy snow isn't) and you don't have noticeable ghosting, the post-transition digital signals should be adequate at your location with your current antenna.

Please bear in mind that no Denver station is broadcasting a full-power digital signal yet. Many will be cranking up the juice in the next several months, though, so it doesn't make sense to spend top dollar only to find out later that it wasn't necessary to do so!

Can anyone give me a suggestion for a good antenna? I posted my tvfool info here - http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1044577 I'm near Hampden and I-25, about 25 miles from lookout mountain. I'd liked to put it in the attic - the old one is already there. Plus I have Directv and I can't convince the wife we need an antenna on the roof in addition to the dish on the side of the house. She doesn't appreciate wanting to use PIP for football season.

Thanks,

Dennis

Check out Don M's advice first (i.e., determine if your existing attic antenna can or can be made to do the job.

If in fact you need a new antenna, I suggest you buy for the future (i.e., 2/17/09 and beyond) rather than today. Therefore, you might consider this Winegard antenna which is available from Solid Signal:

http://www.winegard.com/offair/pdf/HD7694P.pdf

or this AntennaCraft antenna:

http://www.antennacraft.net/HBU22.html
and
http://www.antennacraft.net/pdfs/HBU22.pdf

This Channel Master new combo is supposed to do the same thing as the foregoing, but I think it is a bit light on VHF gain.

If your current attic antenna is UHF only, it will be fine until 2/17/09, when you might consider adding this high VHF antenna in combination so you can receive KMGH, Channel 7 and KUSA, Channel 9, post-transition.

http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=Y5-7-13
and
http://www.antennacraft.net/pdfs/Y5-7-13.pdf

New post about the tower on the City and Mountain News rag. Nothing really new, just more stupid whining.

City & Mountain News (http://www.citymtnviews.com/summer08/AT_Update_June08.php4)

Thanks, Ernie. Talk about bovine excrement: "male executives." "The industry." These are buzzwords intended to get the moonbat, tinfoil-hat crowd excited.

And if I were bovine excrement, I'd sue them for slanderous libel. :rolleyes: :D

Oh no! Not county transmitters on the tower! That could be for public safety use!



When KDVR built their tower in the 80's they had an agreement with the county that they could put county antennas on it. I actually was involved taking bids for companies to install the antennas. The county had a dedicate area in KDVR's transmitter building and those antennas have been there for a long time.

When KDVR built their tower in the 80's they had an agreement with the county that they could put county antennas on it. I actually was involved taking bids for companies to install the antennas. The county had a dedicate area in KDVR's transmitter building and those antennas have been there for a long time.

But don't you see? That's not public safety. Every transmitter increases radiation! Danger! Danger!!!

As I've often said, I suspect most CARE folks pipe more radiation directly into their bodies from cell phones and WiFi devices (not to mention background radiation from the rocks that make up Lookout Mountain) than they receive from the transmitters located on Lookout's towers.

Don M / CEB, thanks for the info. I've tried using the existing antenna and I can get channel 2 and channel 6 HD, and some of the SD channels with not great reception. I'll try playing with it a little more.

And what kind of balun do I need? Right now, the coax is connected to the antenna using one of those adapters that connects to the two screws - the things they used to connect cable to old tvs that didn't have coax input.

Thanks,

Dennis

\ Right now, the coax is connected to the antenna using one of those adapters that connects to the two screws - the things they used to connect cable to old tvs that didn't have coax input.
That is a balun.

Don M / CEB, thanks for the info. I've tried using the existing antenna and I can get channel 2 and channel 6 HD, and some of the SD channels with not great reception. I'll try playing with it a little more.

And what kind of balun do I need? Right now, the coax is connected to the antenna using one of those adapters that connects to the two screws - the things they used to connect cable to old tvs that didn't have coax input.

Thanks,

Dennis

I guess you have some kind of UHF antenna then, please provide a description of it including length. Most baluns are all about the same. The difference between them in loss is too small to account for your lack of DTV channel reception.

Do the SD (I'm assuming SD, but still digital, not analog) channels include channels 12-1, 12-2, and 12-3? If so, it sounds like you are probably pointed in the correct direction (i.e., channel 6-1 is on the extreme left, channels 12-1,2,3 are on the extreme right and channel 2-1 is in the middle), but you either need a bigger antenna or a pre-amp.

Also, what is the physical appearance of that coax connector to the balun? Is it corroded at all or look loose at all on the wire? Is the connector a crimp on connector (squeeze marks on the barrel near where the wire enter it? A bad connector at that point can rob your signal. Getting a good connector on there properly installed is not a simple task unless you have invested in some tools, which cost way to much to fix one connector.

I'm not picking up the channel 12 digital channels. As for a picture/description of the antenna, it's a major hassle to get into the attic so I probably won't be able to do it until the weekend. I know the balun is pretty old so it probably makes sense to just replace it. Also, something is bent where it screws on to the antenna, so I don't think it has the best connection.

Thanks for the help.

Dennis

I'm not picking up the channel 12 digital channels. As for a picture/description of the antenna, it's a major hassle to get into the attic so I probably won't be able to do it until the weekend. I know the balun is pretty old so it probably makes sense to just replace it. Also, something is bent where it screws on to the antenna, so I don't think it has the best connection.

Thanks for the help.

Dennis

When you head to the attic this weekend, take along a compass and try to point that antenna to 279 degrees by the compass (at least 270, but not more than 279). If making that antenna move and making sure of the quality of the balun connections doesn't do it, then it is more antenna or at least a pre-amp.

I'm not picking up the channel 12 digital channels. As for a picture/description of the antenna, it's a major hassle to get into the attic so I probably won't be able to do it until the weekend. I know the balun is pretty old so it probably makes sense to just replace it. Also, something is bent where it screws on to the antenna, so I don't think it has the best connection.

A few more tips as you tweak your setup:

* Make certain the coax cable isn't damaged. Split insulation, crooked connectors or noticeable kinks/dents in the insulation jacket are all hints of permanent damage. Replace the cable as well as the balun if you see anything like this.

* To prevent damage, don't pinch the coax -- in a door jamb or under furniture -- and don't pull hard on it. This will compromise the shielding that blocks interference.

* Run the coax cable as straight as you can. A "spaghetti" pile of coax up in the attic or, worse, behind the entertainment center all mixed up with AC power cords, will also degrade the signal to your receiver.

When it comes to OTA reception, in other words, sweat the small stuff. Seemingly little things like these can have a big impact.

Thanks for the tips!

Am I the only one who gets totally frustrated with KTVD-DT, Channel 20-1's poor DD audio? I mean, KUSA-DT had the same problem for a long time, but recently they seem to have done something about it. Now I only need to set my audio receiver's volume level at 38 to 40 for KUSA-DT DD to get the same volume level as KUSA-DT DD at 32 to 35. A big improvement over a few months ago.

However, My20 or your 20's DD has to be set to 48 to equal 9-1's DD at 40. Needless to say, if I'm watching 20-1 and switch to 4-1, the wife goes orbital and dogs jump into the air because it is way too loud to listen to in the same room. Transition is less than 8 months away and these guys still haven't figured out how to handle their DD audio on their second station. Maybe they just figure that no one is watching 20-1 anyway.