Since KPXC is an ion O&O, I'd contact ion about it. And maybe the FCC, since they're required to broadcast guide data...

I watched the game on ESPN-HD without any problems. I didn't think the PQ was too dark either. I did switch over to Fox31 OTA HD a couple of times to check the quality of the re-broadcast and didn't note anything except that Fox31 was several seconds behind the ESPN-HD broadcast via Dish. Ironic in that it was probably the first time that a DBS broadcast was actually ahead of an OTA broadcast. Makes me think that Fox31 was not getting their feed from the ESPN source, but rather was re-broadcasting what they were receiving from DBS or cable. Don't know, don't care. Just an observation.


Interesting, at home I noted the sync issue on digital (2+ seconds), but no sync issue on Analog.

At 9:00, I went to my local YMCA to do the elliptical x-trainer while watching the game (analog cable :mad:) until they closed at 10. My Y has the separate TVs for each piece of equipment. I noticed that FOX was a good 3-5 seconds ahead of ESPN, so I watched FOX while most people were watching ESPN. I got to see the massacre a few seconds before the rest of the exercisers :)

I couldn't receive Fox 31 for the Broncos game on the OTA receiver on my E* receivers. All I had was a black screen. The E* feed on channel 6333 was OK though. There was definitely a delay on the E* feed compared to ESPN. I didn't notice any audio delay problems on the E* feed.

So when can we get some guide info for the new ION channel , for all 4 channels? I still unable to get it on my DVR. Should I just wait, or is there someone we can whine to? I did send an email to titantv, but nothing yet.

Not getting a whiff of the new ION channel, but they unwisely chose to broadcast from an azimuth to my house that is 180 degrees from my azimuth to LOM and 100 degrees from my azimuth to KWHD in Castle Rock. I don't use a rotor and never will and I just can't see setting up an antenna just for that one dinky station. What were they thinking?

Kind of a surprise that FOX 31 had the game since ESPN is owned by ABC!

Station ownership isn't a factor in these events. The local stations of the teams playing a "cable-only" game bid for the right to carry the cable channels broadcast, so the home folks w/o cable or DBS can still see their heros play. I think that if this wasn't offered for NFL games, the cable folks fear a public backlash that could translate into pressure on the FCC to do something about it. Nothing gets the public as stirred up as missing their NFL heros play a big away game.

Don't know if the folks in Oakland got the same alternate broadcast choices as the NFL's blackout rule still applies if the stadium isn't sold out by a certain time prior to the game.

Anyone going?: http://audiofest.net/2008/show_schedule.php?Sid=db15acfe3505d3fdccc6c80b7641a653

Not getting a whiff of the new ION channel, but they unwisely chose to broadcast from an azimuth to my house that is 180 degrees from my azimuth to LOM and 100 degrees from my azimuth to KWHD in Castle Rock. I don't use a rotor and never will and I just can't see setting up an antenna just for that one dinky station. What were they thinking?

They were thinking it was less of a hassle to build out a signal there that fewer people will see than to go through the regulatory nightmare required to build on Lookout or Morrison.

ION seems like they care more about cable/satellite carriage than about their OTA viewers anyway, so I doubt they saw it as a huge downside.

- Trip

Trip, I believe the relocation of KPXC's tower resulted in a slight increase in the population served versus location on Morrison/Lookout.

(Crossposted from the Northern Colorado DTV forum)

I'm losing patience with Rocky Mountain PBS as far as their Northern Colorado coverage is concerned, and frankly, their failure to make concrete and public disclosures of their plans for providing digital signals in my part of the state have become, in my view, totally unacceptable.

In particular, they are keeping all us folks in Northern Colorado literally in the dark about the timetable for construction of this new Mount Morrison tower and the coverage that can be expected from it if and when it is in place.

I'm beginning to question RMPBS sincerity regarding the provision of service up here, and I'm wondering if it might be appropriate to start looking for a big stick, because walking softly has had no positive effect.

So here is what I'm thinking about: what level of signal presence must a broadcaster have in an area to qualify for must-carry status on the cable systems in that area? If KRMA cannot be received in Fort Collins after the February analog cutoff, would Comcast and US Cable be obliged to carry them up here?

Also, are there any "signal importation rules" that might actually disqualify KRMA for cable carriage in an area for which they have made no serious attempt to provide broadcast coverage?

Just thinking...


Jim McCauley

Trip, I believe the relocation of KPXC's tower resulted in a slight increase in the population served versus location on Morrison/Lookout.

In theoretical terms it might have, as in how the FCC likes to measure coverage, though I've come to learn that the FCC's methods are very imperfect. In practical terms, the station almost certainly has lost coverage.

The FCC's "population served" figure assumes that people are using a roof-top antenna, 30 feet above the ground, aimed directly at the station in question. I sincerely doubt that anyone outside of people who work at KPXC has an antenna aimed just to receive KPXC-DT. Anyone who cannot receive the station because their antenna is aimed at Morrison to get KRMA-DT for example, will not see KPXC-DT regardless of what coverage maps predict.

The other thing is that Lookout and Morrison are on mountains, though you wouldn't know it from the FCC site. The FCC site says that KCNC-DT is 1226' above the average terrain. When you don't include the extremely rough terrain to the west, and count only the populated flat areas, KCNC-DT most likely has a height advantage of over 1000' relative to KPXC-DT's tower, and a height advantage of 2300' over the local viewing population. My local stations in the Roanoke DMA are only listed as 2000' above the average terrain, but have an actual 3200' height advantage over my area, thus the signal that is predicted to go 70 miles by the FCC's coverage maps actually carries 95 miles.

(How did I figure that for KCNC-DT? 7060' above sea level, plus the tower adds 735', versus the height of a random spot I picked in Denver of about 5300')

- Trip

For those who may have missed it, there is a blog on the RMPBS web site on the digital conversion:

http://www.rmpbs.org/panorama/index.cfm/entry/290/BLOG:-Six-months-until-digital-switch---are-you-ready?

They refer to construction of the Mt. Morrison tower, but no on-air date is provided. They also say they will be multicasting three channels by February, with a fourth reserved for emergency purposes. That doesn't sound good for HD, which is already struggling after the addition of V-me.

Anyone going?: http://audiofest.net/2008/show_schedule.php?Sid=db15acfe3505d3fdccc6c80b7641a653

Haven't missed one yet! :)

For those who may have missed it, there is a blog on the RMPBS web site on the digital conversion:

http://www.rmpbs.org/panorama/index.cfm/entry/290/BLOG:-Six-months-until-digital-switch---are-you-ready?

They refer to construction of the Mt. Morrison tower, but no on-air date is provided. They also say they will be multicasting three channels by February, with a fourth reserved for emergency purposes. That doesn't sound good for HD, which is already struggling after the addition of V-me.

Sounds like KUSA might have a challenger for worst picture quality. :rolleyes:

(Cross-posted from the Northern Colorado Forum)

I went through the KQCK Application Filings on the FCC website:

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/pubacc/prod/app_list.pl?Facility_id=18287

Despite the fact that they have been off the air for over 30 days, there is no filing of a request for silent operation.

I ratted them out via http://esupport.fcc.gov/complaints.htm. Feel free to do the same.


Jim McCauley

(Crossposted from the Northern Colorado DTV forum)

I'm losing patience with Rocky Mountain PBS as far as their Northern Colorado coverage is concerned, and frankly, their failure to make concrete and public disclosures of their plans for providing digital signals in my part of the state have become, in my view, totally unacceptable.

In particular, they are keeping all us folks in Northern Colorado literally in the dark about the timetable for construction of this new Mount Morrison tower and the coverage that can be expected from it if and when it is in place.

I'm beginning to question RMPBS sincerity regarding the provision of service up here, and I'm wondering if it might be appropriate to start looking for a big stick, because walking softly has had no positive effect.

So here is what I'm thinking about: what level of signal presence must a broadcaster have in an area to qualify for must-carry status on the cable systems in that area? If KRMA cannot be received in Fort Collins after the February analog cutoff, would Comcast and US Cable be obliged to carry them up here?

Also, are there any "signal importation rules" that might actually disqualify KRMA for cable carriage in an area for which they have made no serious attempt to provide broadcast coverage?

Just thinking...


Jim McCauley

I also notice from my TiVo Guide listing that 6-1 is not scheduling the same programming as 6. No 'News Hour with Jim Leher' ...

Like you, in northeast Longmont, KRMA-DT signal is ZERO.

Some of our needs are being met by KBDI-DT.

For those who may have missed it, there is a blog on the RMPBS web site on the digital conversion:

http://www.rmpbs.org/panorama/index.cfm/entry/290/BLOG:-Six-months-until-digital-switch---are-you-ready?

They refer to construction of the Mt. Morrison tower, but no on-air date is provided. They also say they will be multicasting three channels by February, with a fourth reserved for emergency purposes. That doesn't sound good for HD, which is already struggling after the addition of V-me.

Karkus and I have been over there bothering them. Pam Osborne, Director of Marketing seems to be getting the message that Northern Colorado viewers are not happy.

Please reinforce what we have started.
Thanks!

Trip, I understand what you are saying. My post was based on the population served numbers used by the FCC and the wording from KPXC's own filing with the FCC. I think differences arise in computations of "coverage", as you correctly point out, depending on use of HAAT versus AMSL.

Posted by Jim McCauley regarding KQCK:
I ratted them out via http://esupport.fcc.gov/complaints.htm. Feel free to do the same.
I filed a complaint also. Besides the silent issue, I covered their incorrect mapping to 11-1 instead of 33-1, their failure to include any program guide info in their PSIP data, using a sister station's info (in Nebraska) informing viewers to tune to (I recollect) channel 14 after 2-17-09 to satisfy the DTV public service announcement requirements, and that they have no presence in their COL - onsite engineer, phone number, street address, etc.

I wouldn't be surprised if their owner, Denver Broadcasting, Inc., isn't even aware they aren't on the air. If they are aware of the situation, I suspect they either don't have the resources to fix it or, perhaps, they don't care.

Anyone else not receiving guide data from KCNC or is it just me?

On my CM-7000 I don't get any guide data. BTW this is with 100% signal according to the CM-7000.
I just tried an RCA DTA800B1 which gets guide data. Looks like certain tuners can't pick up KCNC's guide data.
What kind of tuner are you using?

A Humax HFA-100. Very strange. Is it possible your RCA just has the data cached?

No - I had to turn on the RCA to see if it was picking up guide data - it has a simple now next type guide. I get a program title "Flashpoint" and even a show description.
BTW - on other channels my CM gets guide data.

I also notice from my TiVo Guide listing that 6-1 is not scheduling the same programming as 6. No 'News Hour with Jim Leher' ...


That hasn't been the case for quite some time; KRMA-DT shows PBS Create most of the day, broadcasting actual HD programming about three hours a day.

Meanwhile, here in Louisville my response is "KBDI-DT? What's that?" :D

I filed a complaint also. Besides the silent issue, I covered their incorrect mapping to 11-1 instead of 33-1, their failure to include any program guide info in their PSIP data, using a sister station's info (in Nebraska) informing viewers to tune to (I recollect) channel 14 after 2-17-09 to satisfy the DTV public service announcement requirements, and that they have no presence in their COL - onsite engineer, phone number, street address, etc.

I wouldn't be surprised if their owner, Denver Broadcasting, Inc., isn't even aware they aren't on the air. If they are aware of the situation, I suspect they either don't have the resources to fix it or, perhaps, they don't care.

I don't think they had an incorrect mapping in their psip data. I think they didn't have any of the newer ATSC psip tables. I haven't been able to check since they went off the air before I got my HDHomeRun, which lets me analyze a channels transport stream. In particular, they probably did not provide a TVCT table, which is the table that provides the psip channel number.

So the channel number displayed will be whatever your TV tuner or converter box decides to use by default when it cannot find the proper information. I suspect that all of them probably just use the RF channel number. I suspect that some boxes may have problems if the RF channel number winds up duplicating the PSIP channel of another station that does provide the appropriate information.

I will note that KQCK isn't the only channel at fault here. KRMT-DT (on RF channel 40) is not sending any PSIP tables either. Since their analog operation is on Channel 41 I believe they should be sending a TVCT table that maps to PSIP channel 41. They are also not sending any guide data. So perhaps a complaint should be filed against them also.

Originally I thought these were relatively minor violations, but I then found that the FCC has actually fined stations for not adhering to the PSIP standards.

Anyone else not receiving guide data from KCNC or is it just me?

I think it is just you, unless it was just a temporary problem. They are currently sending guide data.

Are you still not receiving guide data from KCNC? Were you ever able to get guide data from KCNC? Is that the only channel you are having problems with? Have you unplugged your tuner and then plugged it back in?

I'm just wondering if it's possible that KCNC sent something bad (e.g. illegally formatted psip information) for a short time that triggered a bug in your tuner that prevents it from retrieving guide data for that station. Perhaps a power cycle or even a full reset would fix the problem.

It's just KCNC. It's been this way for the last 4 days or so. I just checked my DTVPal, it doesn't have info for KCNC and neither does beachbum_50's CM-7000, so it can't just be my Humax box. They must be doing something funky with the data.

It's just KCNC. It's been this way for the last 4 days or so. I just checked my DTVPal, it doesn't have info for KCNC and neither does beachbum_50's CM-7000, so it can't just be my Humax box. They must be doing something funky with the data.

Hmm, interesting. The data is definitely being sent currently, and my Zenith DTT-900 displays it. But since you said that you DTVPal wasn't displaying it, I went and plugged my DTVPal in and sure enough, it is not showing any guide data for KCNC. Since I've been spending a little time analyzing the PSIP data from the local stations lately, I'll have to see if I can figure out what the problem is.

Posted by jsmar:
I don't think they had an incorrect mapping in their psip data. I think they didn't have any of the newer ATSC psip tables.
I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here. KQCK has always, from day one, mapped to 11-1. Whether it's because they send no PSIP info or they send incorrect PSIP info, the fact remains they remap incorrectly. I was commenting on the result, not the cause.

Also:
I will note that KQCK isn't the only channel at fault here. KRMT-DT (on RF channel 40) is not sending any PSIP tables either. Since their analog operation is on Channel 41 I believe they should be sending a TVCT table that maps to PSIP channel 41. They are also not sending any guide data. So perhaps a complaint should be filed against them also.
You're absolutely right. I forgot about them. This station used to send out blank screens for channels 40-1 thru 40-15, with their transmission mapping to 40-16.

On another note, I just checked KCNC and I'm not receiving any program guide info either.

On another note, I just checked KCNC and I'm not receiving any program guide info either.

Same here. Anybody call the engineers about this? Got a contact name? I'll call.

Posted by jsmar:
I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here. KQCK has always, from day one, mapped to 11-1. Whether it's because they send no PSIP info or they send incorrect PSIP info, the fact remains they remap incorrectly. I was commenting on the result, not the cause.


I guess the point I am making is your use of "they" seemed active to me, i.e. they are doing something to actively cause their channel to map to 11-1. I think there is a distinct difference between 1) providing bad PSIP data which actually does map to an incorrect virtual channel and 2) not providing any PSIP data, in which case the channel they show up on is determined by whatever the converter box decides to do in the absence of PSIP data -- which might lead to different results for different converter boxes.

Checked out KCNC-DT program data on my different receivers and got mixed results. Of course I don't see PSIP data with my Dish ViP211, so I can't verify anything with it. My Zenith DTT900 gets the Now and Next data for KCNC-DT without a problem. But, neither my LG LST4200A nor my 9-month old Sammy LNT3253H LCD HDTV get any data for them. Must be a quirk in their sending software that some ATSC tuners can't interpret. My conclusion is that the problem is KCNC-DT and they need to fix it. It isn't us or our equipment.

Meanwhile, 40-1 still doesn't send valid PSIP data either; my TiVo S3 refuses to tune it despite a signal strength of near 100%.

Meanwhile, 40-1 still doesn't send valid PSIP data either; my TiVo S3 refuses to tune it despite a signal strength of near 100%.

Just curious, are you receiving 40-1 on an antenna pointed at it or at the LOM channels? If your antenna is pointed at LOM, how many degrees off azimuth is 40-1 from your LOM azimuth?

I can't get more than an unlockable, fluctuating, very low strength signal for 40-1 from my Winegard PR-9018 antenna w/ CM7777 pre-amp pointed at LOM. My KRMT-DT's azimuth is about 25 degrees off-azimuth from LOM from me. That's well within the beamwidth of my antenna, so I don't understand why my signal from them is so poor. By comparison, that same antenna can actually lock a signal from KWHD-DT, which is over 30 miles away and is 85 degrees off azimuth from LOM for me.

My Vizio VX32L stopped detecting KRMA-DT during the channel scan several months ago. I did a channel scan in mid-August when KPXC digital came on-line and the Vizio was able to detect 59-1, 59-2, 59-3, and 59-4, but not 6-1, 6-2.

I just did a channel scan late this morning and the Vizio was able to detect KRMA-DT. I did talk to a Vizio engineer who was willing to work with KRMA, and a KRMA engineer said they would contact him when they had some time, but I have not heard anything from either of them since very early in August. Perhaps they finally got together and figured something out.

I have (2) VX32L TVs, and I did scans with both this morning. They both found all the stations I could reasonably expect to see. They both detected all the stations on Lookout Mountain and Mt Morrison as well as KPXC-DT, KBDI-DT and KWHD-DT.

Rick313: I would love to hear if you have done a scan lately with your Vizio, and whether it can now detect KRMA-DT. If you can, I will email KRMA that they seem to have made a change that fixed the Vizio issue.

Wow.

Thanks to jsmar, I now have data for many of the Denver stations. It'll find its way onto my website very shortly.

I'm looking at KRMT-DT... I've never seen such a disaster. There are so many things wrong with this station, it's a wonder that any box can see it.

1. Wrong TSID. The TSID is a unique identifier for each station, so tuners can tell them apart. They're transmitting the TSID for KDTN-2 in Dallas, TX, their hub station. Some receivers will balk at that one.

2. It appears that they're literally feeding the bitstream right off the satellite dish and into the transmitter. I see all kinds of stuff about satellite in the stream, very little regarding the OTA.

3. No PSIP.

Just wow.

- Trip

Howdy Folks,

I'm sure this info is buried somewhere within this long Denver OTA thread, but I have a hard time sifting through all the information.

I am writing to see if anyone has any recommendations for a rooftop antenna to receive digital OTA from Lookout. I'm located at 1319 Alpine Avenenue in Boulder and have some decent success with the antenna we currently have, but channel 7 seems to pixelate.

Will the recommended antenna change from now and after the tansition in February when stations broadcast on different frequencies? I think a channel master had been recommended in the past, but I forget the model number.

Many thanks for your patience with my question.

Tim

Checked out KCNC-DT program data on my different receivers and got mixed results. Of course I don't see PSIP data with my Dish ViP211, so I can't verify anything with it. My Zenith DTT900 gets the Now and Next data for KCNC-DT without a problem. But, neither my LG LST4200A nor my 9-month old Sammy LNT3253H LCD HDTV get any data for them. Must be a quirk in their sending software that some ATSC tuners can't interpret. My conclusion is that the problem is KCNC-DT and they need to fix it. It isn't us or our equipment.

It's fixed now. I had analyzed their transport stream when the problem was happening to try to diagnose the problem, but I was not able to find it at that time. Everything looked good, i.e. they were sending proper guide data and I couldn't find anything wrong when doing comparisons with other stations that were not having a problem.

So, out of curiosity, I saved a raw copy (a few minutes worth) of KCNC's transport stream during the "bad" time, and then I saved a copy of the "good" data after the episode guide data reappeared on my DTVpal. I figured that perhaps directly comparing good and bad I might be able to more easily find the difference than when comparing data between different stations.

So, at first I still could not find a difference, but finally I found the difference that I am fairly certain caused the problem. I had concentrated mostly on the episode guide data packets, and a little on some of the rest of the stream, but I missed the "System Time" (STT) packets. The problem is that KCNC's system time had gotten off by more than 29 hours (in the past). Since KCNC only sends the PSIP standard minimum of 12 hours of guide data none of the data matched.

Knowing the problem, I looked to see if any other stations had significant time problems. KWHD is 24 hours off right now. However, they send 72 hours of guide data. Sure enough that causes the DTVpal to show data that is 24 hours out of whack. The initial EPG shows no data since I believe it only downloads a small amount from each station, and then fills in as you tune to each station. So if you tune to KWHD eventually the guide data fills in, but it is displaying the data from 24 hours in the future.

So, I knew that many stations are not paying much attention to keeping their system time accurate, but I had not realized the effect that had on the EPG data (DTVpal owners who have followed the DTVpal discussion know the effect that bad system time has on the reliability of the DTVpal recording timer functionality). Actually the PSIP standard says that stations are required to maintain their system time accuracy within +/- 4 seconds, and they've said they plan to change that to within +/- 1 second. Very few Denver stations are coming close to this (KMGH and KWGN are usually within +/- 4 seconds), with KPXC being the only station that seems to be using some type of atomic time standard for their system time (i.e. their time delta has always been 0 seconds every time I've checked).

Alright:

With many many thanks to jsmar, I now have the data for most of Denver's stations posted on my site!

http://www.rabbitears.info/market.php?mktid=25

Still missing are:

KCDO-DT (not on the air)
KQCK-DT (not on the air)
KPJR-DT (not on the air)
KCEC-DT (low power)

I went ahead and guessed at KCEC, since I've seen plenty of Entravision stations follow the same pattern.

Also listed now: KGWN-DT in Cheyenne. You can search for it in the search box at the top of that page.

- Trip

I just did a channel scan late this morning and the Vizio was able to detect KRMA-DT.

Thanks for the update Ken! Like you, I did a channel scan a few weeks ago when KPXC-DT came online, and my VX32L didn't detect KRMA-DT at that time. However, thanks to your post, I just did another scan and voila, it's there. Now if KQCK-DT would just get back on the air, I'd be a happy camper.

Thanks for the update Ken! Like you, I did a channel scan a few weeks ago when KPXC-DT came online, and my VX32L didn't detect KRMA-DT at that time. However, thanks to your post, I just did another scan and voila, it's there. Now if KQCK-DT would just get back on the air, I'd be a happy camper.

Glad to hear the news. I just sent an email to John Anderson at KRMA.

I doubt that I will ever receive KQCK. It would be off the back of my antennas, and a pretty good distance. Most of the time, I do get a barely watchable 39-LP, which is the same programming.
I was actually quite surprised that I was able to get KPXC-DT, since it is at a very bad angle, since my antennas are pointed almost due South and they are Northeast, but it is pretty close to me and is supposed to be at very high power.

Most of the time, I do get a barely watchable 39-LP, which is the same programming.

Fortunately, I do receive KQDK-CA (39), but as you said, it's barely watchable. As I understand it, the transmitter is located near Parker Road and I-225 which is only about 5-6 miles from me, but I am using an indoor antenna, and I don't get the best reception, so I'll be glad if and when KQCK-DT gets up and running. I just hope I don't lose KRMA-DT again the next time I do a channel scan.

(Cross-posted from the Northern Colorado / SE Wyoming DTV AVS Forum)

A brave soul from the FCC is coming to town tonight. This is from the Fort Collins Library District website:


LIBRARY PROVIDES HELP FOR DIGITAL TELEVISION TRANSITION

With the switch to digital television (DTV) approaching quickly, you may be wondering what to do with your rustic television that's been in the family for years. Will it finally have to be thrown away? The Fort Collins Regional Library District is offering a program that will answer this question and more. The program, "Digital Television - What is it all about?" will be held on Sept. 15 in the Harmony Library. The hour-long programs start at 7 pm, and Wayne Liang from the Federal Communication Commission will answer any questions or concerns you may have about the switch to DTV.


I don't know how well prepped this person will be on local matters, but I'm curious about:

1. RMPBS' plans for post-transition service for Northern Colorado. (I may have some news on this score in a few days.)

2. The impact on Northern Colorado reception for the KBDI DTV multiplex when it makes its post-transition move back down to VHF digital channel 13 at reduced power.

3. What the hell happened to KQCK-DT (digital channel 11).

Could be either interesting or entertaining in a deer-in-the-headlights kind of way. If you live in the region, y'all come.


Jim McCauley

Just curious, are you receiving 40-1 on an antenna pointed at it or at the LOM channels? If your antenna is pointed at LOM, how many degrees off azimuth is 40-1 from your LOM azimuth?

Good question, I don't know.

My antenna is pointed at Lookout, and it's a nice strong signal as reported by my S3 TiVo, which can't decode it, and my Sony Bravia HDTV and DTT900 CECB tuners, which can.

Good question, I don't know.

My antenna is pointed at Lookout, and it's a nice strong signal as reported by my S3 TiVo, which can't decode it, and my Sony Bravia HDTV and DTT900 CECB tuners, which can.

The azimuth difference can be readily obtained using the magnetic azimuth readings for the LOM stations and 40.1 from antennaweb or TVFool, if you wouldn't mind. Thanks.

I read the article in in the RMN last weekend about the DTV transition. To me, the FCC and the local reporter both seem to miss the two biggest holes in the transition implementation.

First, nearly every promo for the DTV transition just gives an overview and then directs the viewer/listener to call a phone number or go on-line for the details. Well, I believe that a great many of those using OTA for their TV signals are elderly (based on anecdotal evidence to date). My experience with these elderly is the last thing they are going to do is call a phone number to have someone explain a technology to them they don't understand. Especially a government phone number. They also are generally not computer savvy and may not even own a PC. These folks are in for a shock come next February.

The second hole in the strategy is dealing with those whole get their OTA signal using a set-top antenna. While that setup may be adequate for the current analog signals, especially those on low VHF, DTV may be a big disappointment. Gone are the easy to receive low VHF signals and the high VHF and UHF DTV signals being broadcast will be based on the FCC's reception by an outdoor antenna at a 30 foot elevation. This coverage standard has the stations using reduced power levels (to save operating costs) to achieve the theoretical equivalent coverage they had with analog. A lot of "rabbit ears" users aren't going to get satisfactory DTV reception and some no reception at all.

I think the two foregoing issues will be the train wrecks for the February transition unless the FCC transition team gets a clue.

Just my two cents.

First, nearly every promo for the DTV transition just gives an overview and then directs the viewer/listener to call a phone number or go on-line for the details. Well, I believe that a great many of those using OTA for their TV signals are elderly (based on anecdotal evidence to date). My experience with these elderly is the last thing they are going to do is call a phone number to have someone explain a technology to them they don't understand. Especially a government phone number. They also are generally not computer savvy and may not even own a PC. These folks are in for a shock come next February.

Unfortunately, there are some non-technical types that may never "get it" despite all attempts to bring them onboard. However, I think the media is making a pretty good effort to educate the public. I've seen about 3 different infomercial style programs designed to educate consumers about the transition, and I would expect local newspapers and news broadcasts to devote more indepth coverage to the transition as the deadline approaches. I'm not sure how much more could be done.

The second hole in the strategy is dealing with those whole get their OTA signal using a set-top antenna. While that setup may be adequate for the current analog signals, especially those on low VHF, DTV may be a big disappointment. Gone are the easy to receive low VHF signals and the high VHF and UHF DTV signals being broadcast will be based on the FCC's reception by an outdoor antenna at a 30 foot elevation. This coverage standard has the stations using reduced power levels (to save operating costs) to achieve the theoretical equivalent coverage they had with analog. A lot of "rabbit ears" users aren't going to get satisfactory DTV reception and some no reception at all.

I agree that digital coverage should at least be the same as current analog coverage. Unfortunately, I expect that many people who used to receive an adequate analog signal will be left in the dark when the transition occurs. This reminds me of when cell phones changed from analog to digital. Despite all of the advantages of digital over analog, the signal just doesn't seem to travel as far. It's like taking one step forward and two steps back sometimes.

(Cross-posted from the Northern Colorado / SE Wyoming DTV AVS Forum)

A brave soul from the FCC is coming to town tonight.

Came and went. It was a generic presentation designed for general interest. The presenter, a personable and quiet fellow, answered questions from the mainly-senior crowd -- the usual queries, like "Can I still use my VHS tape machine to time-shift?" There is clearly a good deal of confusion among prospective DTV buyers.

After the meeting, the FCC guy tried a scan with a Digital Stream CECB -- fed by rabbit ears, no less -- and got a clear picture only on 22-1. 2-1 and 2-2 just barely came in, the former broken up and blocky. Given that this was on the southwest corner of Fort Collins, this was no surprise to anyone familiar with local conditions.

While he was trying yet another fruitless scan, I clued him in on the unannounced disappearance of KQCK-DT. This piqued his regulatory interest, and he gave me his card. I'm following up today with an e-mail.


Jim McCauley

It would be good if the stations could be at their full rated power before next Feb. It may be that the increase in power would hopefully make most reception problems moot. At the current low power, it is impossible to tell how big a deal it will be.

Right now, I have one tv in an upstairs bedroom hooked to a converter box which has a RS double bow-tie antenna setting on a table. I get all channels with no problem. Channel 9 (UHF 18?) was the only one that required the antenna to be aimed just right.

Ha Ha, it's Y2K all over again.:D

ok, I am going off topic, does anyone in the area have one these cards? I get KMGH, KBDI, KRMA video and sound fine, but only sound on KUSA and KCNC. Otherwise, this card works fine. I got this thing at Microcenter. Any suggestions? Yes, I have tried the support email address at vboxxcom web site, but not much help there yet.


This is the PCI card in my Media Center XP version desktop i have at home.

ok, I am going off topic, does anyone in the area have one these cards? I get KMGH, KBDI, KRMA video and sound fine, but only sound on KUSA and KCNC. Otherwise, this card works fine. I got this thing at Microcenter. Any suggestions? Yes, I have tried the support email address at vboxxcom web site, but not much help there yet.


This is just a guess, but perhaps your TV card, graphics card, machine, and/or software doesn't have the resources to handle a 1080i program. What time of day did you do the test? The reason I ask is that KRMA does 1080i at night (not sure of when the start and end times are), and 480i for the rest of the day. So this would be a good test of whether my guess is correct. If you get video on KRMA during the day, but can only get audio at night (say around 9 PM) then it is likely that your problem is related to 1080i programming. Another test would be to see if you can get video for KUSA's weather subchannel (9.2). That channel is 480i, whereas 9.1 is 1080i.

Of course, knowing the problem is 1080i related won't tell you if the problem can be fixed or not, but it might give you a little more direction in solving the problem.

Channels 2 and 31 are combining some of their operations. I hope that something positive for OTA HD comes out of this. Maybe some more local HD news?

http://www.9news.com/news/local/article.aspx?storyid=99863&catid=346

More here on the story...

http://digitalproducer.digitalmedianet.com/articles/viewarticle.jsp?id=519707

ok, I am going off topic, does anyone in the area have one these [VBox Cats Eye 150] cards?

I suspect that your graphics card can't do HD. What model is it?


Jim McCauley

The graphics card should have nothing to do with it. Have you tried using a program besides media center to view TV?

Channels 2 and 31 are combining some of their operations. I hope that something positive for OTA HD comes out of this.

Isn't the real concern whether or not the scope of editorial perspective in the Denver news market might be shrinking? In my book, representation trumps resolution.

Of course, if there isn't a dime's worth of difference between the stations editorially, it's a great big Don't Care. Jeez, I should talk -- if you want to get on my personal news radar, you've got to show up on PBS or NPR. I can't remember the last time I watched commercial news. Denver local stories don't concern me much here in Fort Collins, and the most interesting Colorado political coverage is on KBDI -- _Colorado State of Mind_ on KRMA notwithstanding.


Jim McCauley

I'd be more concerned if I worked in the news division of either station; best start sending out resumes now…

I was reading in another forum about some testing a station in San Francisco did. One morning, around 2AM, they turned off their analog transmission and their temporary digital transmission, hooked up their post transition transmitter to their analog transmission antenna (because they are planning to go digital on the same high VHF frequency as their analog service after the transition) and sent out some test programming for a few hours.

I would love to see KMGH and KUSA do that sometime before the transition. Has anyone seen anything from either of these stations indicating they might do such testing? Can we encourage them to do so?

I am interested to know how well I will receive these stations after the transition. I'd like to know this so in case there are difficulties receiving those stations I can have more time to plan how to remedy the situation. I would think that KMGH and KUSA would want some real world data also. It would be great if they could coordinate the testing so that it happened at the same time, so any of us who were interested could check our reception for both channels at the same time.

Uh, jsmar, FYI, all our local networks are all on the air in digital from Lookout right now from the new LCG tower. Have you tried to tune them in?

They are running lower power until Feb as to not exceed RF limits on the mountain, but you should be able to receive them now.

None of them are operating on their final VHF frequencies though (for 7, 9, 12). It'd be nice to be able to test antennas ahead of time. Better to go up and fiddle with your roof antenna now than during the blizzard in February.

- Trip

I don't think that ch 7 or 9 will have any difficulty making the frequency switch with their digital signals. Aren't they just going to use their existing VHF equipment and antenna and feed it the digital signal that now goes out on UHF?

Uh, jsmar, FYI, all our local networks are all on the air in digital from Lookout right now from the new LCG tower. Have you tried to tune them in?

They are running lower power until Feb as to not exceed RF limits on the mountain, but you should be able to receive them now.

Ernie, I think you missed his point. KUSA and KMGH are currently broadcasting on UHF and some get them well and others don't. But, come February, they will be broadcasting a relatively low power signal on high VHF and nobody knows just how good or bad average metro area reception will be under those totally unknown conditions.

I don't think that ch 7 or 9 will have any difficulty making the frequency switch with their digital signals. Aren't they just going to use their existing VHF equipment and antenna and feed it the digital signal that now goes out on UHF?

No. New tower, new antennas, lower ERP than current analog VHF broadcasts. There are practically no known values for the variables in this switch. It's anybody's guess as to how many metro area folks who rely on OTA TV, will no longer be able to receive those channels. An experiment before 2/17/09 would make some sense, but don't bet on it happening.

Channels 2 and 31 are combining some of their operations. I hope that something positive for OTA HD comes out of this. Maybe some more local HD news?

http://www.9news.com/news/local/article.aspx?storyid=99863&catid=346

I hope that this results in the best morning news show in Denver (Tom, Natalie, and Angie on Channel 2/KWGN) going HD, but I won't hold my breath. Most likely a lot of news folks on both stations are updating their resumes and we the viewers/consumers will be worse off in the end.

Moving to KDVR's studio means no more Tagawa gardens for the weather broadcasts. BTW, I think weather folks are in for the biggest hit. Too many very good weather people on those two stations. Should be some opportunity for female anchors as good ones are in short supply on both stations.

I wonder if it is a safe assumption that 2 and 31 will continue to use their separate broadcast towers on separate mountains?

I suspect that your graphics card can't do HD. What model is it?


Jim McCauley

I will have to check, that was my assumption at the start, but who knows. I have a widescreen monitor via a DVI cable right into the video card, let me check some more. I have not checked any other Tv program besides Media Center.. let me play with it some more.

Uh, jsmar, FYI, all our local networks are all on the air in digital from Lookout right now from the new LCG tower. Have you tried to tune them in?

They are running lower power until Feb as to not exceed RF limits on the mountain, but you should be able to receive them now.

Article on LCG Tower (http://www.tvtechnology.com/pages/s.0082/t.15202.html)

Anybody know how the low power levels on the new tower compare to former downtown low power levels? While downtown is only 8 mi NW and I had trouble getting all channels clearly at a decent signal strength with the antenna at one orientation, the new tower is about 20 mi west of my house.

I had been trying to build an HD HTPC in the spring but had problems with my HDHomerun tuner integrating with my Mythbuntu system. The tuner manufacturer wasn't much help, saying I needed an outdoor antenna. I ran a simple test, borrowed a Hauppage USB tuner from a friend and hooked it up to my Vista Home Premium laptop and my 50dB indoor antenna and was able to get all but 1 or 2 PBS (probably Squaw Mtn.) stations. I even got stations I didn't recognize - probably CO Springs or northern CO. I went on vacation and have been too busy during the summer to mess with it more, but I plan on hooking the HDHomerun up to my Vista Laptop to see if it can display decent reception. I'm sick of paying $60+/month for an HDPVR that couldn't store more than 3 days of Olympics action.

Ernie, I think you missed his point. KUSA and KMGH are currently broadcasting on UHF and some get them well and others don't. But, come February, they will be broadcasting a relatively low power signal on high VHF and nobody knows just how good or bad average metro area reception will be under those totally unknown conditions.

Exactly. I already receive just about every digital signal that I could be expected to receive from the Denver area. However, I live in Fort Collins, and my antenna is a CM 4228, which is designed as a UHF only antenna, although it appears that it might offer some reasonable reception for some high VHF frequencies. I can receive the analog transmissions of KMGH and KUSA currently, which gives me some hope of not needing additional equipment, but there are too many variables to really know for sure without some kind of test.

I wouldn't expect these stations to do such a test purely for our benefit. But I think there are also significant benefits to the stations. One benefit would be the ability to do measurements out in the field, to see how well their simulations correlate with reality. The other would be that such a test would be a good dry run for the February 17th transition. If something goes wrong on February 17th they don't have the option of continuing their analog service. I don't believe they even have the option of continuing their digital service on their pre transition channels. So they will have to go dark until they solve any problem they encounter, although the chance of significant problems are probably small.

Article on LCG Tower (http://www.tvtechnology.com/pages/s.0082/t.15202.html)



Passage of Senate Bill 4092 in December 2006, Perez said, gave the Lake Cedar Group consortium of three TV stations “a blank page to construct whatever we needed to construct on Lookout Mountain to deliver DTV to Denver. But we decided to follow the ODP [original design plan] because we felt it was the right thing to do.”

Just as I suspected, if they hadn't lifted the injunction, the tower still would have been built. KRMA still hasn't figured out they have "a blank page" as well.

Both sides were just playing nice at that point because 4092 trumped everything and a good plan was already in place.

Article on LCG Tower (http://www.tvtechnology.com/pages/s.0082/t.15202.html)
Why is it so difficult to get the facts right in these articles? I don't think I've seen one yet that has gotten it right.

Hmm, KUSA is pumping out 500 KW on Channel 16 now and then next February will be using a VHF transmitter to pump out 1 MW -- still on channel 16.


I had been trying to build an HD HTPC in the spring but had problems with my HDHomerun tuner integrating with my Mythbuntu system. The tuner manufacturer wasn't much help, saying I needed an outdoor antenna. I ran a simple test, borrowed a Hauppage USB tuner from a friend and hooked it up to my Vista Home Premium laptop and my 50dB indoor antenna and was able to get all but 1 or 2 PBS (probably Squaw Mtn.) stations. I even got stations I didn't recognize - probably CO Springs or northern CO. I went on vacation and have been too busy during the summer to mess with it more, but I plan on hooking the HDHomerun up to my Vista Laptop to see if it can display decent reception. I'm sick of paying $60+/month for an HDPVR that couldn't store more than 3 days of Olympics action.

I have a HDHomerun, and I am extremely happy with it. It should get everything you got with the borrowed Hauppage card, if not more. It's only slightly less sensitive than my Zenith DTT 900, and that CECB is among the best as far as reception goes. There are two versions of the HDHomerun, the newer one (which is the one I have) has a slightly better tuner and is less likely to be overloaded by a strong signal, but the old version was pretty good also.

Anyway, the first step in setting up your HDHomerun should be to make sure it is working with just the command line utility (on Linux) or the configuration GUI on Windows. That way you can make sure you've got the hardware working properly before you try to get one of the various DVR software packages (like MythTV) to work properly. On Vista you may want to try their bundled Arcsoft TotalMedia package first (If you didn't get it with your HDHomerun you can download it from the website). It may not have all the features you want, but it is the package that is most likely to work "right out of the box".

A little more on the KWGN/KDVR "merger":

KDVR-Channel 31's new management took the first steps Tuesday to combine its broadcasting operation with KWGN- Channel 2, Denver's first television outlet.

Under a local marketing agreement permitted by the Federal Communications Commission, KDVR (Fox-31) will be in charge of major operations of KWGN (CW2), owned by the Tribune Co., which has been in a major cutback mode in its print and broadcasting operations.

The new agreement begins Oct. 1.

KDVR-Channel 31, owned by Oak Hill Capital Partners, a lending private equity firm, is operated by Local TV LLC, an Oak Hill subsidiary.

Oak Hill bought KDVR-Channel 31 and seven other Fox-owned- stations for $1.1 billion in July.

The move will drastically downsize the operation of KWGN-Channel 2, which will move its offices at I-25 and Orchard Road to KDVR's headquarters at Speer Boulevard and Lincoln Street, where broadcasts of both stations will emanate.

KDVR-Channel 31's headquarters is located on land where KWGN-Channel 2 first broadcast when it went on the air in July 1952.

Both channels will be run by Dennis Leonard, who joined KDVR three days ago as vice president and general manager.

James Zerwekh, KWGN-Channel 2's current vice president and general manger, will leave his position at the end of the month.

The majority of KWGN employees will have to apply at KDVR to keep their jobs, according to Leonard.

"I have no idea, at this time, how many Channel 2 employees will be absorbed into the new organization," Leonard said. He added that contracts of on-air personnel would be honored "in some way."

Bottom line is KWGN will effectively be absorbed by KDVR.

I wouldn't expect Channel 2's newscasts to remain around too much longer myself…

Hmm, KUSA is pumping out 500 KW on Channel 16 now and then next February will be using a VHF transmitter to pump out 1 MW -- still on channel 16.

Good trick, given channel 16 would be UHF.

Of course, according to the FCC, in 2009 KUSA will broadcast their DTV signal on VHF channel 9.

KUSA's current DTV license also sets their ERP at 37 kW on DTV 16, and their post-transition power level is listed in their application at 45 kW on DTV 9:

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/pubacc/prod/eng_tv.pl?Application_id=1250043

In fact, their current analog ERP is only 316 kW.

Further, KUSA's Form 387 is also interesting reading:

In Appendix B, KUSA was allotted a digital antenna pattern that cannot be reasonably achieved with a real-world antenna. Due to the rugged terrain in the Denver area, an extreme reduction in power would be required in order to stay within the service contour of the allotment facility, with a corresponding loss of coverage. KUSA therefore requested a change in the allotment to allow it to more closely replicate its analog Grade B contour. The petition remains pending. Therefore, KUSA will seek as much expansion of its contour as possible when it files its Form 301 for channel 9. The expansion will be requested pursuant to the policy adopted in the Order allowing for waivers of the freeze against contour expansions if certain conditions are met.

Specifically, the Form 301 that KUSA will submit by March 17, 2008 will seek a waiver of the Commission’s freeze through a showing that (a) a minor expansion of the station’s contour would allow it to avoid a significant reduction in post-transition service; (b) that the proposed expansion of its contours would not extend beyond the facilities specified in the DTV Table by more than five (5) miles in any direction; and (c) that the expanded facilities would not create impermissible interference. See Order ¶ 151. If further maximization of facilities is needed and achievable, subject to the post-transition interference rules, it will be requested in a further application to be August 17, 2008. See, Order ¶ 153.

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/getattachment_exh.cgi?exhibit_id=618223


My apologies if there are subtleties to all this I've missed.

My apologies if there are subtleties to all this I've missed.

What they're saying is that the FCC told them they could have 6 kW on channel 9, and they're saying that 6 kW won't let them cover much of anything. It's why they're asking for the (rather powerful) 45 kW.

- Trip

What they're saying is that the FCC told them they could have 6 kW on channel 9, and they're saying that 6 kW won't let them cover much of anything. It's why they're asking for the (rather powerful) 45 kW.

- Trip

Call me skeptical, but all of this post-transition coverage area stuff is based on computer models, making it strictly theoretical. 45 kw post-transition VHF DTV ERP versus 316 kw current VHF analog ERP leaves a lot of doubt in my mind that all of the folks who currently watch analog Channel 9 via OTA will get a signal lock on OTA DTV Channel 9 post-transition. As reported in this thread, the current KUSA-DT broadcasts are not reaching the planned coverage area that was based on these same computer models. Good science requires the testing of theory for confirmation or denial, even if the theory is from a computer model (same problem with the global warming computer models; but don't get me started).

Put me down for a forecast of a considerably smaller coverage area (than is currently achieved) for Channel 9 post-transition. Maybe the FCC will provide KUSA with some customer service phone answerers come February 2009, because I think the phones will be buzzing with PO'd viewers (pardon me, former viewers). Of course this will provide a great opportunity for Comcast to grow their subscriber base in metro-Denver, as that will be the only way many current OTA Channel 9 viewers will be able to see KUSA-DT.

Remember, these computer projections are the same ones that allow KRMA-DT to claim that they reach 95% of their analog broadcast audience with their current setup, and we know how much baloney that is.

Call me skeptical, but all of this post-transition coverage area stuff is based on computer models, making it strictly theoretical. 45 kw post-transition VHF DTV ERP versus 316 kw current VHF analog ERP leaves a lot of doubt in my mind that all of the folks who currently watch analog Channel 9 via OTA will get a signal lock on OTA DTV Channel 9 post-transition. As reported in this thread, the current KUSA-DT broadcasts are not reaching the planned coverage area that was based on these same computer models. Good science requires the testing of theory for confirmation or denial, even if the theory is from a computer model (same problem with the global warming computer models; but don't get me started).

There are a lot of variables to take into account, so certainly a computer projection can be wrong. But you seem to be claiming that the computer projections don't have any real science behind them, which is far from true. There has been plenty of testing along the way.

Also, it doesn't take a computer projection to know you can't directly compare the 45 KW ATSC ERP to the 316 KW NTSC ERP. NTSC ERP is measured as the RMS power of the sync pulses, which basically means that it is a peak measurement, since the sync pulses are by definition the peaks of any NTSC transmission. ATSC ERP is measured as the RMS power of the entire transmission. ATSC peaks are 6-7 db higher, so at the very least you have to use a factor of 4 (6 db) to compare the two ERP's, but that factor of 4 is VERY conservative. The reason is that an ATSC signal is much more "dense", i.e. its peak to rms ratio is much lower than a typical NTSC signal. The NTSC signal average power varies significantly with the brightness of the scene being transmitted. The average power of a darker scene is going to be significantly lower than the peak power. Taking this into account most experts believe that a 10+/-3 db factor between NTSC ERP and ATSC ERP should be used. That gives a range of roughly 5x to more than 16x. That's quite a large range, but 316/45 is ~7x, which is on the low end of that range.


Remember, these computer projections are the same ones that allow KRMA-DT to claim that they reach 95% of their analog broadcast audience with their current setup, and we know how much baloney that is.

Yes, this particular projection does seem to be fairly bogus. But I believe the problem with their projection has a lot more to do with different location, different antenna and different antenna height than it has to do with different ERP.

Anyway, IF KUSA is approved for 45 KW ERP then I believe that they will probably achieve roughly equivalent, if not better coverage than they have currently. However, if they have to stay at the currently approved 6 KW then they are probably going to lose a significant percentage of their current OTA coverage.

There are a lot of variables to take into account, so certainly a computer projection can be wrong. But you seem to be claiming that the computer projections don't have any real science behind them, which is far from true. There has been plenty of testing along the way.
..

I would think the high peak power of NTSC during the sync intervals is what allows that system to maintain synchronization during difficult reception situations. 8VSB collapses when the 'going' gets tough. I think it's a fragile waveform because so much information is encapsulated by that 6 Mhz channel with every redundant spectral component having been filtered away to accomplish the feat. Even Mrs Shannon and Nyquist would roll their eyes in disbelief.

So I'm also skeptical about those claimed 10 db power differentials. I have no doubt this can be demonstrated over a free space path but the terrestrial environment is just more complex.

--- CHAS

Anyway, IF KUSA is approved for 45 KW ERP then I believe that they will probably achieve roughly equivalent, if not better coverage than they have currently. However, if they have to stay at the currently approved 6 KW then they are probably going to lose a significant percentage of their current OTA coverage.

The FCC final DTV Table of Allotments (FCC-07-138A2) shows KUSA at 39.6 kW. If FCC denies the application for 45 kW, KUSA could file immediately for the ERP in the table "as of right." Under these circumstances, I believe it unlikely that FCC would deny the 45 kW application, barring serious defect in the technical exhibits, because the difference in transmitter output in the application versus the table is miniscule at roughly 0.2 dB. For another thing, the 6 kW application and approval occurred weeks before the FCC lifted its moratorium on applications for power increases. It's basically moot.

I'm not losing sleep over this. We're getting KUSA's current 37 kW UHF signal from 23 miles out at a rock-steady 87 on the meter from an unamplified, hand-built 4-bay up in the attic. I know an older gentleman in my neighborhood with rabbit ears whose KUSA reception now is also surprisingly reliable (I helped him set up his CECB). The station, like so many others, simply has to go though a lot of red tape between now and February -- red tape that is of the FCC's making, not the stations'.

No doubt I'm far from alone in looking forward to the end of all (or most, anyway) of this five months from now.

Remember, these computer projections are the same ones that allow KRMA-DT to claim that they reach 95% of their analog broadcast audience with their current setup, and we know how much baloney that is.

The 95% claim originates from this RPBS news release, dated 14 August 2007 and still available at http://pbsmail.org/rockymountainpbs/notice-description.tcl?newsletter_id=14523148:

KRMA-DT NOW AVAILABLE TO 95% OF KRMA-TV VIEWING AREA
On August 2, Rocky Mountain PBS' KRMA-DT expanded its reach throughout the Front Range by replacing its digital transmitter on downtown Denver's Republic Plaza with a new digital transmitter on Mt. Morrison. With this new high-power transmitter, KRMA-DT increases its reach from 10-15% of the KRMA-TV (analog channel 6) viewing area to 95% of the area. Rocky Mountain PBS now meets FCC requirements to provide appropriate digital coverage by February 2009, when the government will discontinue analog coverage nationwide. Viewers seeking KRMA-DT over the air should now point their transmitters toward Mt. Morrison instead of downtown Denver. KRMA-DT is available at channel 6-1.

If the meaning of this is 95% of the geographical area of analog coverage, a glance at the station's own coverage maps (at http://www.rmpbs.org/content/index.cfm/fuseaction/showContent/contentID/77/navID/75.htm ) makes that claim a bit of a stretch.

Interestingly, the coverage maps aren't the usual (relatively meaningless) FCC contours. Can anyone hazard a guess as to how they were generated?


Jim McCauley

The 95% claim originates from this RPBS news release, dated 14 August 2007 and still available at http://pbsmail.org/rockymountainpbs/notice-description.tcl?newsletter_id=14523148:

If the meaning of this is 95% of the geographical area of analog coverage, a glance at the station's own coverage maps (at http://www.rmpbs.org/content/index.cfm/fuseaction/showContent/contentID/77/navID/75.htm ) makes that claim a bit of a stretch.
Jim McCauley

Sometimes they say area rather than audience, but the FCC only cares about the number of people in the area of coverage, so my guess is that when they claim 95% coverage they are talking about people within their simulated coverage area. Looking at a geographic coverage map doesn't tell you much about the population coverage without knowing the underlying population data. Still, the data is interesting, but I'd like to see a blow up of that map for the Fort Collins area.

The digital coverage map at the KRMA site linked below seems to show the map based on their previous downtown Denver DT transmitter locations (not the current Mt Morrison location).

Also, it was my impression that requirement was 95% of the viewers (but it does indeed say viewing area).
Still, considering that people in Louisville, Lafayette, Longmont, Loveland, Ft. Collins, etc. used to get KRMA-DT from downtown and now CAN'T get it anymore, I really can't see how they INCREASED their coverage, and certainly not to 95% of their analog signal. I have tried calling BS on this claim several times by emailing various people, but there has been no response at all.


The only good news is that KRMA confirmed on their Panorama blog that they plan to increase power in March 2009 (they have a permit for 1000 kW, but it is not clear how much they will increase it next spring). Also, it sounds like they plan to move the transmitter higher up, but this was not totally confirmed either.
They plan a new tower on Mt. Morrison, which will take 18 months, but it is not clear if they started that process this summer or whether it's just about to start. Either way, we can figure 2010.

Here's one of the replies from
http://www.rmpbs.org/panorama/index.cfm/entry/290/BLOG:-Six-months-until-digital-switch---are-you-ready?
"1. We have been granted a Construction Permit from the FCC to increase our Effective Radiated Power to 1000KW.
a. We expect to build out the new transmission facility on Mt. Morrison as soon as possible, but we need to have a place to put the new transmitter and antenna.
b. The planned new tower on Mt. Morrison will take at least 18 months to construct
c. We are exploring alternatives with the site owners that will allow us to increase our power by March of 2009.
d. We also need funding for site construction and purchase of the transmitter and antenna; as this will cost RMPBS over $1.6 million."

The 95% claim originates from this RPBS news release, dated 14 August 2007 and still available at http://pbsmail.org/rockymountainpbs/notice-description.tcl?newsletter_id=14523148:


Interestingly, the coverage maps aren't the usual (relatively meaningless) FCC contours. Can anyone hazard a guess as to how they were generated?


Jim McCauley

Jim,
Those look very similar to the coverage profiles (http://www.tvfool.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=15&Itemid=1) found on TV Fool and downloadable for viewing on Google Earth.

I've attached their profile for KRMA-DT at 115KW from Mount Morrison. Obviously this profile doesn't account for whatever is blocking the signal to the North and Northeast.

Can anyone verify that KRMA is actually transmitting at 115KW?

Information on the FCC site seems to indicate that they are only putting out 13.8KW

Information on the FCC site seems to indicate that they are only putting out 13.8KW

That's an old STA from when they were on Republic.

- Trip

d. We also need funding for site construction and purchase of the transmitter and antenna; as this will cost RMPBS over $1.6 million."

They better double that cost to cover the lawsuits from sCare. This blows my mind that they want to spend $1.6 M on a Mt. Morrison project, when they could slap a transmitter on one of the LM towers, or just build a tower on LM for that matter. Have fun in court. :rolleyes:

They better double that cost to cover the lawsuits from sCare. This blows my mind that they want to spend $1.6 M on a Mt. Morrison project, when they could slap a transmitter on one of the LM towers, or just build a tower on LM for that matter. Have fun in court. :rolleyes:

Yes, very strange and not logical. They currently have analog on Lookout and have an existing tower there. Do they own that facility? What will become of it in February?

It's been mentioned that tower is end of life and needs to be replaced so it's probably coming down next year 'no matter what'. So why not continue transmitting from the ice bridge, remove the EOL tower on lookout, use the ACT to end run sCARE and build the new tower on Lookout and move there.

Either way, there will be a period of poor service from the ice bridge but that's the way it is. How have matters developed as they have?

--- CHAS

Still, considering that people in Louisville, Lafayette, Longmont, Loveland, Ft. Collins, etc. used to get KRMA-DT from downtown and now CAN'T get it anymore, I really can't see how they INCREASED their coverage, and certainly not to 95% of their analog signal. I'm in Longmont and could not get KRMA-DT from downtown, but do get it reliably now.

It's been mentioned that tower is end of life and needs to be replaced so it's probably coming down next year 'no matter what'. So why not continue transmitting from the ice bridge, remove the EOL tower on lookout, use the ACT to end run sCARE and build the new tower on Lookout and move there.



That makes loads of sense to me. There are other towers that are not coming down. I wonder if there is any room on the KDVR or KWGN towers? They had also mentioned the LCG tower. I guess they rather spend the $1.6 M. The longer this goes on, the more and more I think that they don't believe they have the right to do whatever they want on Lookout. That is the only thing that makes sense to me. I had originally thought they went to Morrison to cut costs by using the already existing channel 20 tower, but now they want to spend $1.6 M. I am completely lost as to what they're thinking. :confused:


Either way, there will be a period of poor service from the ice bridge but that's the way it is. How have matters developed as they have?



Youv'e got me there, I can't figure out what the heck they're doing! Maybe we can get Don Perez to explain what Public Law 109–466 means to the KRMA lawyers/management. Here is a copy to refresh their memory:


Public Law 109–466
109th Congress
An Act
To clarify certain land use in Jefferson County, Colorado.
Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of
the United States of America in Congress assembled,
SECTION 1. CLARIFICATION OF CERTAIN LAND USE IN JEFFERSON
COUNTY, COLORADO.
Notwithstanding any applicable State or local land use or condemnation
laws or regulations, and subject to all applicable Federal
laws and regulations, any person that holds an approved Federal
Communications Commission permit to construct or install either
a digital television broadcast station antenna or tower, or both,
located on Lookout Mountain in Jefferson County in the State
of Colorado, may, at such location, construct, install, use, modify,
replace, repair, or consolidate such antenna or tower, or both,
and all accompanying facilities and services associated with such
digital television broadcasts, if such antenna or tower is of the
same height or lower than the tallest existing analog broadcast
antenna or tower at such location.
Approved December 22, 2006.

...

Either way, there will be a period of poor service from the ice bridge but that's the way it is. How have matters developed as they have?

--- CHAS

Here, in NE Longmont Colorado, our reception of KRMA-DT is probably as good 'ZERO' as yours, in NE Pennsylvania.

We rely on KRMA-TV for News Hour with Jim Lehrer and a few other programs. I do not want to accept a 'period of poor service'. The Ice Bridge just does not work for us!

I suppose there is a ZERO chance of their continuing to broadcast analog KRMA-TV beyond February 2009 until they get their KRMA-DT act together.

I'm in Longmont and could not get KRMA-DT from downtown, but do get it reliably now.

We are in northeast Longmont, near 17th and Pace. We receive KRMA-TV quite well, but nave never received KRMA-DT.

We can receive 14.1 KTFC-DT from Mount Morrison. The Ice Bridge just does not work for us!

Anyway, IF KUSA is approved for 45 KW ERP then I believe that they will probably achieve roughly equivalent, if not better coverage than they have currently. However, if they have to stay at the currently approved 6 KW then they are probably going to lose a significant percentage of their current OTA coverage.

Well I still have my doubts. Besides the reliance on computer models rather than testing the equipment they plan to use over the area they plan to broadcast to, of particular concern is the FCC reception standard being based on an outdoor antenna at a 30 foot elevation. That, in my opinion, is a much less rigorous standard than what is currently achieved with analog transmissions (i.e., many viewers of analog who don't have that 30 foot elevation, outdoor antenna may not receive the DTV transmission).

While I know this isn't apples to apples, my look at the current analog and DTV reception on a Zenith DTT900 in a bedroom on the second floor (elevation approximately 20 feet above ground level) is not encouraging. Using a set top RCA VHF/UHF antenna and an old Rat Shack TV with NTSC tuner, I can reliably get a strong signal from analog 2, 4, 6, 7, 9, 12, and 14. 7 and 9 have ghost problems, but the signal is strong. Analog 20 and 31 are badly ghosted and are not as strong a signal as the others, but still viewable.

With the same antenna and TV, using the DTT900 for an ATSC tuner, I can only receive DTV 2-1 and 14-1 reliably. I get a sporadic signal on 4-1 and 31-1, but can't maintain a lock. All the other DTV channels are either zero signal or within the first third on the Zenith's signal strength meter. IOWs, I don't have DTV reception with a set top antenna at only 10 miles from the towers, but I do have strong analog signal reception from the same mountain locations.

Now I get around this problem with my array of attic antennas (elevation about 30 feet above ground) and their CM7777 pre-amps, but most folks currently using an indoor antenna aren't going to go through that much expense and effort to get DTV. They will probably just go to cable.

While I know this isn't apples to apples, my look at the current analog and DTV reception on a Zenith DTT900 in a bedroom on the second floor (elevation approximately 20 feet above ground level) is not encouraging. Using a set top RCA VHF/UHF antenna and an old Rat Shack TV with NTSC tuner, I can reliably get a strong signal from analog 2, 4, 6, 7, 9, 12, and 14. 7 and 9 have ghost problems, but the signal is strong. Analog 20 and 31 are badly ghosted and are not as strong a signal as the others, but still viewable.

With the same antenna and TV, using the DTT900 for an ATSC tuner, I can only receive DTV 2-1 and 14-1 reliably. I get a sporadic signal on 4-1 and 31-1, but can't maintain a lock. All the other DTV channels are either zero signal or within the first third on the Zenith's signal strength meter. IOWs, I don't have DTV reception with a set top antenna at only 10 miles from the towers, but I do have strong analog signal reception from the same mountain locations.


I certainly have a few doubts also, but perhaps I am more optimistic. It will be interesting on February 18th to read what has changed. The biggest changes are obviously going to be KMGH, KUSA and KBDI as they move back to high VHF. But other stations will be able to increase power once they no longer have to worry about interfering with analog transmissions.

I look forward to hearing how things change for you and others in Denver who will be testing with rabbit ears (even if you have other options). I'll certainly be reporting how things work out for me in Fort Collins.

What's up with CBS tonight? CSI Miami is in SD... I'd think the premier would be in HD!

-CJ

Two and A Half Men had terrible sound and Worst Week had no sound and then switched to SD.

I think it a channel 4 network recording problem. What a mess. :(

Two and A Half Men had terrible sound and Worst Week had no sound and then switched to SD.

I think it a channel 4 network recording problem. What a mess. :(

We gave up on Two and A Half Men; couldn't stand having a loud laugh track, but not be able to hear the dialogue. Switched to Heroes, which I normally can't stand, but stayed with it to the end. I think CBS lost a lot of viewing audience in metro-Denver with the KCNC-DT screw-ups.

I called KCNC right after CSI-Miami started and asked if they could turn on the HD. Needless to say, it didn't happen. I think when this happens, and it's due to something other than station engineers sleeping on the job and forgetting to "flip the switch", that stations should run a crawl periodically during the telecast stating that they are having difficulties with the HD transmission. At least we would know what's going on.

There have been some posts expressing concern over reception of KMGH, KUSA, and KBDI once they go digital on VHF. I don't think we're going to have any problems. I receive (when it was on the air!) KQCK, RF channel 11, very strong with a UHF yagi antenna. Before I split my antenna lead for my basement HDTV, I received KQCK in my basement with rabbit ears and I'm 71 miles from the transmitter, although I have LOS according to tvfool.com. VHF signals also do better bending over hills and ridges compared to UHF, so I think we'll be fine with the VHF signals.

KUSA also wasn't blameless; unless it was a freak atmospheric, I got a digital screw up on the crucial last line of tonight's Heroes premiere…

Oh boy, here we go…

Capps Bill Would Postpone Analog Recovery

Would Require Market-by-Market Plan for Service Until March 2009

By Ted Hearn -- Multichannel News, 9/22/2008 3:34:00 PM

Washington—Rep. Lois Capps (D-Calif.) is close to introducing the first House bill that would postpone the federal government’s recovery of all analog TV spectrum on Feb. 17, 2009.

Capps, a member the House Energy and Commerce Committee, would require the Federal Communications Commission to develop a market-by-market plan to make analog TV service available until March 3, 2009.

The bill would give the FCC latitude to require at least one analog TV station per-market to stay on the air for an additional two weeks. In some cases, the FCC could allow one powerful analog TV station to serve two adjacent markets.

The FCC’s program, to be drafted no later than Jan.15, 2009, would ensure that the analog station transmitted emergency information as well information about the digital TV transition. Capps, whose district is 41% Hispanic, would mandate DTV transition information be broadcast in both English and Spanish.

"It's an intriguing idea. Our TV board will be discussing it in the very near future," said National Association of Broadcasters spokesman Dennis Wharton.

Cable operators would not be required to carry the analog stations under Capps' bill. Cable operators are already required by the FCC to make the signals of digital TV stations that demand carriage viewable in analog and digital cable homes after Feb. 17.

Under current law, all 1,756 full-power TV stations need to surrender their analog TV licenses on Feb. 17 and rely exclusively on their digital signals.

Capps' bill, called the Short-term Analog Flash and Emergency Readiness Act (SAFER ACT), would alter that scheme by providing a lifeline of critical information to consumers who had failed to prepare properly for digital-only broadcasting. …

http://www.multichannel.com/article/CA6598268.html

What's up with CBS tonight? CSI Miami is in SD... I'd think the premier would be in HD!

-CJ

It was a channel 4 issue as I switched from Directv 4 to OTA 4 to confirm it was being broadcast in SD and then went to Channel 5 (Cheyenne) and finished watching the show in HD.

Oh boy, here we go…

I actually like this idea. Let a low-VHF station that's not going to be used for digital transmission anyway stay on the air with a slide explaining where all the stations went.

It would hurt no one for KWGN-2, for instance, to stay on the air with a slide explaining what happened and who to call for two weeks after the transition date.

- Trip

I actually like this idea. Let a low-VHF station that's not going to be used for digital transmission anyway stay on the air with a slide explaining where all the stations went.

It would hurt no one for KWGN-2, for instance, to stay on the air with a slide explaining what happened and who to call for two weeks after the transition date.

- Trip

I to like the concept, but wouldn't this impede/delay KWGN's transition to full power DTV?

Would any tower crew be able to do the work on top of a mountain in February anyway?

If it did cause a problem, KRMA could be the station of choice for this. When they kill analog, they're just taking their tower down.

- Trip

Would any tower crew be able to do the work on top of a mountain in February anyway?

If it did cause a problem, KRMA could be the station of choice for this. When they kill analog, they're just taking their tower down.

- Trip

AMEN! I cannot receive their DTV signal from the Ice Bridge anyway. KRMA-
TV was about all we watched until we were able to receive KBDI-DV.

Some programs are exclusively on KRMA-TV according to TiVo's guide.

I don't like the idea of any delay in switching to digital. Congress has a history of delay or inaction. They haven't passed a timely budget for years, with the government operating under Continuing Resolutions, just as it is now.

There are problems with even a short two week delay:

What good is it going to do, other than delay the inevitable? I'm sorry, but if folks haven't seen any of the PSA's yet, they're not watching TV anyway or they're just plain stupid, neither of which 2 weeks will cure.

How will the one analog station be selected? Stations that are going back to their analog channel and those that are flash cutting would have to be exempted. There might be locales where every station fits into one of those two categories. It was suggested here that KWGN be the guinea pig. Who's going to pay KWGN's 100 kW ERP power bill for 2 additional weeks? I think stations are tired of paying two power bills.

It could also delay stations going full power digital due to a mushroom effect. For example, while it probably wouldn't happen with a PBS affiliate being involved, KBDI is going full power digital on channel 13. If KRDO, channel 13 in the Springs, is the designated analog station for that DMA, KBDI would not be able to go on the air on channel 13 due to impermissable interference to KRDO. I think this would be a problem for the crowded NE part of the country.

Currently, the FCC has stated that stations can cease analog transmission early, without advance permission, if their digital station is up and running. That authority would have to be rescinded.

And to not be politically correct, but the only reason this delay is being proposed is to benefit Spanish speaking folks. If residents can only speak Spanish, they are not citizens. I'm not a radical when it comes to our non-English speaking populace, but we shouldn't be passing laws to benefit non-citizens to the detriment of, say, KWGN.

Let's just get this transition over with. One way around any "need" for this delay is to require stations to run "tests", shutting off analog programming for short periods of time. Some stations have elected to do this voluntarily (See the Sacramento thread as an example). Also, hopefully, the FCC will soon set a deadline for digital transition for Class A's, LP's, translators, etc.

Would any tower crew be able to do the work on top of a mountain in February anyway?

Obviously you're not from this area and therefore not familiar with Lookout Mountain or Denver-area weather in February.

Lookout Mountain is very near Denver and daytime February temperatures are often in the 40s or above.

Recall the LCG tower itself was constructed between September, 2007 and April, 2008.

Oh boy, here we go…

Another example of those guys meddling into matters they haven't even a fundamental understanding of. [of which they have no fundamental understanding] :p

--- CHAS

I'd have been in favor of the two-week, on-station analog continuation if it had been proposed 5 years ago. To do so five months before the transition is moronic. The FCC has enough issues to deal with in trying to get the transition to completion. They don't need another problem to solve.

Good article in today's RMN (http://www.rockymountainnews.com/news/2008/sep/24/digital-tv-hits-test-bump/) about the smaller footprint of digital compared to analog causing some problems in Wilmington, NC.

Good article in today's RMN (http://www.rockymountainnews.com/news/2008/sep/24/digital-tv-hits-test-bump/) about the smaller footprint of digital compared to analog causing some problems in Wilmington, NC.

IMHO once again a stupid issue to be coming up now, as they didn't need to wait for a "test" analog shutoff in Wilmington to know who would and wouldn't be able to receive DTV transmissions in their area.

Are KRMA and KBDI going to wait until analog shutoff to figure out that huge swaths of their former viewing areas can no longer receive them, either?

I am still working on getting the powers that be to get them to add guide data for our ION channel. My DVR I can't get it, but my H-20, I get a 4 sub-channels, but they say "regular programming".

Can someone explain exactly how the RF frequency change is supposed to occur? Some stations are changing RF frequencies, do they flash cut them the day of the analog shut off? Or will they run on BOTH frequencies for some period of time? Will our TV's / TiVo's / Satellite receivers all suddenly require us to rescan for channels?

Can someone explain exactly how the RF frequency change is supposed to occur? Some stations are changing RF frequencies, do they flash cut them the day of the analog shut off? Or will they run on BOTH frequencies for some period of time? Will our TV's / TiVo's / Satellite receivers all suddenly require us to rescan for channels?

The latter; e.g. analog KUSA on 9 shuts off, flash cut to KUSA-DT on VHF 9, and simultaneously KUSA-DT on UHF 16 falls silent.

Can someone explain exactly how the RF frequency change is supposed to occur? Some stations are changing RF frequencies, do they flash cut them the day of the analog shut off? Or will they run on BOTH frequencies for some period of time? Will our TV's / TiVo's / Satellite receivers all suddenly require us to rescan for channels?

Yes, you will need to rescan (I'm assuming when you listed satellite receiver in that list you were referring to a satellite receiver that has an OTA antenna input). Not only are some channels flash cutting, but many others will be able to increase their power, meaning that you may also be able to receive some stations that were too weak to receive before. Other stations will be brand new, i.e. they don't have permission to broadcast until a conflicting analog service is shutdown (although stations in this category don't have to start broadcasting on 2/18/09, they just can't start any earlier than that).

Brings up an interesting question on D* receivers with OTA capability that do not have a "scan" function. The local channel info comes from the satellite in some fashion so I assume that D* will have to make some change on their end to tell the receivers where to find the local channel on the VHF band. I wonder how that works?

The latter; e.g. analog KUSA on 9 shuts off, flash cut to KUSA-DT on VHF 9, and simultaneously KUSA-DT on UHF 16 falls silent.

SO literally everyone with their brand new TV's and digital converters will lose digital signal as they flash cut...? Makes me wonder what the point of running digital side by side was...

Are they going to run crawls for digital users advising them of this fact?

Well... for one all of the equipment we've been buying over the last decade would have been useless until next year. But more importantly, it gave broadcasters time to perfect the art of digital broadcasting while there weren't many people around to witness their mistakes...

There are quite a few newer tuners which run a channel scan when the power is off for this very reason. I don't think it will be a big issue. But yeah, a crawl would be kinda nice.

Well... for one all of the equipment we've been buying over the last decade would have been useless until next year. But more importantly, it gave broadcasters time to perfect the art of digital broadcasting while there weren't many people around to witness their mistakes...

There are quite a few newer tuners which run a channel scan when the power is off for this very reason. I don't think it will be a big issue. But yeah, a crawl would be kinda nice.

NO CRAWLS!!
I don't want crawls all the time for non-emergencies. If 7 and 9 are concerned, they can use use 15 second PSAs during the commercial breaks. Personally, I think that people who have been watching digital OTA will be able to figure it out on their own.

I agree. If you have own an HD tuner, you pretty much know what's up. I was thinking more about the DTV newbies with their new converter boxes.

I think it's safe to assume that the stations that will be changing frequencies will be running commercial spots the last few weeks before the cutover to make sure that their audience is aware of the change. I would be very surprised if they didn't. I remember seeing commercials on KUSA when they moved their antenna from RP to LM. There's no reason to assume that they wouldn't do the same for the RF change.

News story in the Post. Golden in up to something, I can smell it...

http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_10561069

Thanks for the link, Ernie. Everyone, please let your feelings be known by posting a comment below the article on DPO. I just did. Venting felt good, too.

News story in the Post. Golden in up to something, I can smell it...

http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_10561069

That's about their only remaining ploy for shutting down Lookout. I wonder if they are telling the professor to proceed with 'This is what we want you to prove' marching orders? Otherwise, I'm thinking Golden will be disappointed with the results.

Of course the measurements need to be conducted in the immediate vicinity of the Lookout antenna farm as there will be zero probability of exceeding Government specified power limits in Golden proper.

Might the power actually be less in Feb then now when the analog transmitters and KRMA leave the scene?

--- CHAS

Good article in today's RMN (http://www.rockymountainnews.com/news/2008/sep/24/digital-tv-hits-test-bump/) about the smaller footprint of digital compared to analog causing some problems in Wilmington, NC.

Seems like I was just discussing this issue a few posts back. Normally I see the glass half full, but it this case I think we are heading for a national train wreck. I'd hate to be maning the phones at any local TV station or the FCC offices on February 18th.

Seems like I was just discussing this issue a few posts back. Normally I see the glass half full, but it this case I think we are heading for a national train wreck. I hate to be maning the phones at any local TV station or the FCC offices on February 18th.

Note that in this case the problem was not due to a bad simulation. The simulation showed that the stations digital coverage was not going to come close to covering the same area that they were reaching via analog. The people who are complaining are people who the station knew they would no longer reach.

I'm not saying that is not a problem, but in the case of Denver, most stations are planning to cover about the same area (although in the case of KRMA it may take a year or two). Whether or not that will actually be true remains to be seen.

So, it looks like KQCK is back. However, my guess is that most of you who were able to get it before won't be able to get it now, or at least until they improve their PSIP data a little. It's been bad before, but right now KQCK's transmission is missing even the most elemental tables required in a ATSC transport stream, e.g. it is missing a PAT table and associated PMT tables.

Without a PAT table most devices can't do anything with the stream. My Zenith DTT901 won't show anything, although the signal level looks fine. My DTVpal does show a picture and sound. I'm fairly amazed that it does that, because the only way it can do that is for it to just start looking at the various streams and choose a video stream and then choose an audio stream, hope they belong together and start playing them.

Even though KQCK used to lack most PSIP data, they at least had enough information to be able to support two subchannels. There may be two subchannels in the stream right now, but even the DTVpal isn't good enough to try to make sense of what they are doing right now.

Any chance you could send me TSReader data on what it looks like right now? I'd like to see this...

- Trip

Any chance you could send me TSReader data on what it looks like right now? I'd like to see this...

- Trip

There's nothing to see. TsReader can't make any sense of it. TsReader doesn't like the fact that it can't find a PAT table. It shows 32 pids in the Active pids display, but the main information windows are totally blank.

I've been picking at it with some custom software, and it appears to contain 16 mpeg video streams, 1 AC-3 audio stream and 15 other streams that I believe are probably mpeg2 audio streams. One of the video streams is about 3Mbps, which is probably the stream that the DTVpal is displaying. The other 15 video streams are all averaging about 1 Mbps. I can't find a way of displaying those, so I have no idea what they contain, other than the fact that they all contain valid video headers.

Grand. Sounds lovely. Wonder how long it'll take to fix this one.

- Trip

Note that in this case the problem was not due to a bad simulation. The simulation showed that the stations digital coverage was not going to come close to covering the same area that they were reaching via analog. The people who are complaining are people who the station knew they would no longer reach.

I'm not saying that is not a problem, but in the case of Denver, most stations are planning to cover about the same area (although in the case of KRMA it may take a year or two). Whether or not that will actually be true remains to be seen.

The reason I saw the referenced article as having general applicability was the comment that all the officials could recommend was getting a bigger antenna. While no detail is provided, I'm assuming the footprint problem is related to the FCC basis for the footprint (i.e., outdoor antenna at a 30 foot elevation). If my assumption is correct, then I think the test area's problems will be repeated in nearly all DMAs. If the test area problem was strictly a range issue based on a planned shrinking of the DMA (hard to believe the FCC and local officials wouldn't have notified those outside the new DMA in advance that they wouldn't receive the DTV signal), then the problem should have limited applicability nationwide.

So, it looks like KQCK is back. However, my guess is that most of you who were able to get it before won't be able to get it now, or at least until they improve their PSIP data a little.

Thanks for the update. I've been wondering about this because a few days ago, I got a blip on my DTVPal saying that it had found a new station on 11-1, but I wasn't able to actually tune to the station. I used to get it on my Philips DVD recorder and my HDTV in the 60% range, but I can't get it on those either. It's at least encouraging that they're back on the air. Hope they can get their PSIP straightened out soon so that we can all see it.

Since KQCK has been off the air, I've been watching KQDK, but it seems that they have their own problems. I've noticed a lot of skipping lately. It's like going back to the days of LP records. I assume these are glitches where they have a bad signal from the satellite or something, but it can be very annoying. I don't know which is worse the skipping or the out of sync audio which was happening last month.

It's surprising to have these problems with an analog signal. At least when I see these problems on analog, I know that it's not a problem on my end. When it happens on digital, it's difficult to know whether it's a problem with the broadcast itself or whether it's a reception problem. Is there any way to differentiate between the two?

... If my assumption is correct, then I think the test area's problems will be repeated in nearly all DMAs. If the test area problem was strictly a range issue based on a planned shrinking of the DMA (hard to believe the FCC and local officials wouldn't have notified those outside the new DMA in advance that they wouldn't receive the DTV signal), then the problem should have limited applicability nationwide.

In this particular case, I think it is the latter scenario. The stations analog service was actually not covering their city of license (Wilmington) all that well. Their analog antenna was on a fairly high tower, but quite a distance from Wilmington. They chose to move the location of their digital antenna ~35 miles from the location of their analog antenna. So now their coverage in Wilmington is good, but the people to the west who were outside of the DMA but still able to get the analog transmission can not get the digital transmission. It is these people (outside of the Wilmington DMA) who were complaining.

It's surprising to have these problems with an analog signal. At least when I see these problems on analog, I know that it's not a problem on my end. When it happens on digital, it's difficult to know whether it's a problem with the broadcast itself or whether it's a reception problem. Is there any way to differentiate between the two?

Yes, there is a way of differentiating between the two, but not for the average consumer. If you have a way of receiving digital TV on your PC (e.g. an ATSC tuner card, or something like an HDHomeRun) then you can run a diagnostic tool like TsReader (the "Lite" version is free). It's also possible you might be able to infer some of the issues by knowing how your digital tuner behaves in the presence of different types of errors (assuming you find out from another source what the error is/was, so that you can recognize the problem the next time it occurs).

In this particular case, I think it is the latter scenario. The stations analog service was actually not covering their city of license (Wilmington) all that well. Their analog antenna was on a fairly high tower, but quite a distance from Wilmington. They chose to move the location of their digital antenna ~35 miles from the location of their analog antenna. So now their coverage in Wilmington is good, but the people to the west who were outside of the DMA but still able to get the analog transmission can not get the digital transmission. It is these people (outside of the Wilmington DMA) who were complaining.

Again, it is hard to believe the FCC and local officials wouldn't have notified those outside the official DMA in advance that they wouldn't receive the DTV signal. It is also strange that the FCC would even comment or care about complaints outside the DMA, since, technically, those people weren't part of the test. But, if that is all that happened in the test run, then I'll hold off on my nationwide "train wreck" prediction.

When it happens on digital, it's difficult to know whether it's a problem with the broadcast itself or whether it's a reception problem. Is there any way to differentiate between the two?

Well you can use this forum thread to report your problem and the hardware you are using for DTV. There are enough contributors here to be able to verify whether or not others with the same or with different hardware are seeing the same issue. The recent Vizio ATSC tuner problem, with KRMA I believe, is an example of thread contributors identifying a common broadcast and reception problem. In that case, the problem looked like a hardware issue, but was really a broadcasting issue that only affected a certain group of ATSC tuners. The fix needed to come from the broadcaster.

Thanks to this board, I now get Denver digital signals with my attic antenna. My feed is traditional simple video coax that comes out of a wall outlet and makes a connection to a 50 coax that goes into my TV. At the wall, is my favorite easy chair. My problem is I can have a perfect picture but if I get up and leave my chair, I can lose the signal completely especially on channels 6-1 and 7-1. If I sit back down the signals are again captured. I can hold out my arms like a scarecrow and get a good signal but that is not a good way to watch a football game. (My arms get tired!) I tried moving the cables but that simply moves the problem to my wife's chair. I assume we are blocking the signal in some manner. I am wondering if I need to shield the connectors and if so how? Rubber tape? Aluminum foil? Shrink rubber? Any suggestions would be very much appreciated.

P.S. My feed is out of the wall from the attic, into a Radio Shack signal amplifier, out of there to a 50 coax. So, I have three coax connections laying on the carpet.

.. I can hold out my arms like a scarecrow and get a good signal but that is not a good way to watch a football game. (My arms get tired!) ..

:D I'd try relocating the antenna up there in the attic before messing with the cables.

--- CHAS

Thanks to this board, I now get Denver digital signals with my attic antenna. My feed is traditional simple video coax that comes out of a wall outlet and makes a connection to a 50 coax that goes into my TV. At the wall, is my favorite easy chair. My problem is I can have a perfect picture but if I get up and leave my chair, I can lose the signal completely especially on channels 6-1 and 7-1. If I sit back down the signals are again captured. I can hold out my arms like a scarecrow and get a good signal but that is not a good way to watch a football game. (My arms get tired!) I tried moving the cables but that simply moves the problem to my wife's chair. I assume we are blocking the signal in some manner. I am wondering if I need to shield the connectors and if so how? Rubber tape? Aluminum foil? Shrink rubber? Any suggestions would be very much appreciated.

P.S. My feed is out of the wall from the attic, into a Radio Shack signal amplifier, out of there to a 50 coax. So, I have three coax connections laying on the carpet.

Sounds like one of your coax connectors or components is shorted somewhere between the barrel connector in your wall outlet and the coax connector on your TV. Assuming you don't have your own tools and materials to install new "F" connectors on your coax pieces (good tools are ridiculously expensive unless you need to do a lot of coax connections and cheap tools generally don't work well or fail on the first or second use), you will need to replace the coax you have with one or more new pieces.

I strongly suggest that you use RG-6 coax for any replaced pieces, particularly for any pieces prior to the piece that actually runs to your TV (a good RG-59 would be acceptable for that run, if need be).

About the only way to isolate the problem is to buy an appropriate length (1 foot, 3 foot, 6 foot, 10 foot) of RG-6 coax with connectors installed (Rat Shack, Loews, Home Depot) and substitute it for a piece of coax in your current setup to see if the problem goes away (I'd start with the run from the wall plate). If the problem persists, switch the new piece for the next old piece in the chain. If you can't isolate the problem, then you probably have multiple bad connections and you should probably bite the bullet and replace all of them.

Other things to check. Take the wall plate off the wall and ensure that the coax connected to the barrel connector in the wall plate is tight. Ensure that the coax connectors on the Rat Shack signal amplifier aren't loose. If they are, you may need to replace the signal amplifier.

Finally, if your Rat Shack signal amplifier is just one of the in-line, 8 to 10 dB signal amplifiers, be advised that they are notorious for creating as many problems as they may solve (I'm assuming, based on your post that you aren't talking about a Rat Shack power supply for a pre-amp located near your antenna in the attic). If you need signal amplification you should consider a pre-amp (i.e., amplifier attached to your antenna in the attic and its power supply in your TV viewing room). For your application, a pre-amp in the 10 dB to 17 dB range would probably be best.

Keep us posted on what you do and the results.

There was a letter in the RMN today, if you missed it. (More of a political rant, than informative)

RMN Letter-to-the-Editor (http://www.rockymountainnews.com/news/2008/sep/30/switch-to-digital-tv-reveals-federal-waste/)

There was a letter in the RMN today, if you missed it. (More of a political rant, than informative)

RMN Letter-to-the-Editor (http://www.rockymountainnews.com/news/2008/sep/30/switch-to-digital-tv-reveals-federal-waste/)

Heaven help us all .. but please emphasize Denver.

--- CHAS

The misinformation in that thread makes me shake my head in sadness.

And wish it didn't require registration. I'd comment if I didn't have to sign up.

(KOA is 50 kW, not 500 kW)

- Trip

Though I agree with him wholeheartedly in that I think the whole CECB coupon program was a typical waste of money disguised as Government "largesse."

TV is not a right, and IMHO the Government has no need to make sure anyone's analog set can receive anything.

Finally, if your Rat Shack signal amplifier is just one of the in-line, 8 to 10 dB signal amplifiers, be advised that they are notorious for creating as many problems as they may solve (I'm assuming, based on your post that you aren't talking about a Rat Shack power supply for a pre-amp located near your antenna in the attic). If you need signal amplification you should consider a pre-amp (i.e., amplifier attached to your antenna in the attic and its power supply in your TV viewing room). For your application, a pre-amp in the 10 dB to 17 dB range would probably be best.

Keep us posted on what you do and the results.

I'll second that. The Radio Shack amps are not very effective, and can very easily hurt more than help. If you haven't already tried this experiment, you should try running a coax directly from the wall to the TV, bypassing the amp.

If you do get better results with the Radio Shack amp then, as mentioned above, you will probably do even better with a quality antenna preamp, especially if you have a fairly long cable run between your antenna and your TV. Both Channel Master and Winegard make some excellent antenna preamps that will cost you around $60.

Also, do you have any splitters between your antenna and your antenna wall outlet (for example, other antenna outlets in other rooms)? If so, it might help if you remove any splitters that you don't need.

What is the signal strength % as of now for the Denver stations as compared to full power?

What is the signal strength % as of now for the Denver stations as compared to full power?I don't think you can actually compare signal strengths. Most receivers aren't that accurate. For example, my Dish 622 displays KUSA now at 100% and KMGH at 95%.

I think MadMonkey is trying to determine if the the broadcast signal strength will improve once the full power signals are sent from Lookout Mtn. in February?

What is the signal strength % as of now for the Denver stations as compared to full power?

Not sure if this answers your question, but milehighmike posted the following information back in June which summarizes the OTA signals in Denver.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14162818#post14162818

There is guide info for this channel, and I can now tune it in on my HR-20.
There is correct guide programming now! I had contacted everyone that I needed to to get this done, wondering if it was my effort that did it...

Anyways, I contacted:

DIRECTV tech support
DBStalk OTA channel Issues forum
ION MEDIA (twice)
TITANTV
ZAP2IT (Tribune Media Services)

I'm glad I can now see all 4 channels now!

Not sure if this answers your question, but milehighmike posted the following information back in June which summarizes the OTA signals in Denver.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14162818#post14162818

What has never been clear to me is whether or not a station has to broadcast at the ERP levels and antenna height they have requested. Obviously a station wouldn't request permission for those parameters if they didn't intend to use them, but what I don't know is how long after they get permission to change do they have to actually match those levels?

The reason I want to know this is that even if some stations have permission to be at a certain ERP I'm not sure if those stations are actually at those levels right now (for those stations that are not transitioning to their final digital channel until Feb 18 obviously the answer is no). What I would like to know is what the stations are actually doing, rather than what they have permission to do. I imagine that over time those two are likely to be the same thing, but during this transition period I'm not sure that it is currently true.

Sometimes the stations provide more detail in their applications, which show that they may not be at the levels they have permission for right away. For example KBDI has a multiple phase approach which will mean that they won't be at their full approved ERP on February 18th.

There is guide info for this channel, and I can now tune it in on my HR-20.
There is correct guide programming now! I had contacted everyone that I needed to to get this done, wondering if it was my effort that did it...

Anyways, I contacted:

DIRECTV tech support
DBStalk OTA channel Issues forum
ION MEDIA (twice)
TITANTV
ZAP2IT (Tribune Media Services)

I'm glad I can now see all 4 channels now!

Good, I can blame you then. :p They're doing something horribly wrong. Ever since they started transmitting guide data, my Humax tuner freezes up when I tune to KPXC. I have to unplug it to reset it. I finally removed KPXC from my channel list so I would stop accidentally tuning it in...

The DST situation seems to be a mess right now.
On my Vizio TV, most stations are reporting an hour slow, a few are correct, and some have times that are way off. The Vizio shows the KCNC-DT time to be an hour slow.

I have (2)DISH TR40s, and KCNC-DT does transmit digital TVGOS. Under that circumstance, the TR40 is supposed to get its time information from the CBS station transmitting digital TVGOS only. Both TR40s are reporting the same time on all stations, but the 2 are different. One is very close to being correct, and the other is about 4 minutes slow. Stepping to the CBS station did not trigger a time change. I am not sure when the TR40s refresh there time. When/if they do, they may become an hour slow.

I think the mess is being caused by the stations. According to: ATSC A/65C Program and System Information Protocol, Annex A 2 January 2006: Table A2 Basic Use of Daylight Savings Fields Through the Year

After all time zone daylight transitions (within the span of the network) have occurred, the DS_status bit takes the value 1, indicating that daylight savings time is on. The DS_day_of_month field and the DS_hour field take the value 0. (In the U.S., this transition has to occur no later than 7 p.m. Pacific Time on the day day_in).
‘1’ 0 0

This is the status of the fields until:
When the transition out of daylight savings time is within less than one month, the DS_day_of_month field takes the value day_out, and the DS_hour field takes the value hour_out. The DS_status bit is 1 indicating it is still daylight savings time. (The transition is to occur on the day_out day of the month at hour=hour_out; for example, if the transition were on October 27 at 2 a.m., then day_out=27 and hour_out=2)
‘1’ day_out hour_out
I don't have any equipment that can read the PSIP fields, but someone in another area reported that DS_day_of_month was set to 02, by several stations. That looks wrong to me. I believe it should have been 00 on the 2nd of October. It should not have been set to 02 before October 3rd, since the DST transition transition is supposed to be November.
The person also reported that some stations had the field set to 26, so they are telling receivers that the transition to DST is on October 26, 2008.

Does anyone have the equipment to check the DS_day_of_month field and know for sure what it should be set to, and what some of the sations had it set to on October 1, when I believe the DS_day_of_month should have been 0. I guess it is OK for it to be set to 02, now that it is Oct 3, 2008

As I read it, the stations have already created the mess. I will have to see if I can convince the Vizio to go back to DST.

UPDATE:
I just checked my receivers at about 1AM on 10/3/2008, and they all appear OK. I suspect that 1 or more stations reported that DST is active and that the transition date is 00, and the Vizio went to DST on all channels. I guess the TR40s must sync up around midnight, because they both are showing the same time.

The Vizio does show that the time reported by KPXC-DT is 4 hours fast, so the program information is useless. The first program listed is 4 hours beyond the current time.

Does anyone have the equipment to check the DS_day_of_month field and know for sure what it should be set to, and what some of the sations had it set to on October 1, when I believe the DS_day_of_month should have been 0. I guess it is OK for it to be set to 02, now that it is Oct 3, 2008


I have the ability to check this, but I didn't think to check it on October 1st, so the best I can do is tell you what the stations are doing right now.

All of the Denver area stations have the DS_status bit set to 1. Most of the Denver area stations have DS_day_of_month set to 2 and DS_hour set to 2. That's fine if they set that after October 2nd, as you mentioned above. If they had set it earlier then they were wrong.

KMGH, KFCT, KPXC and KWHD still have DS_day_of_month set to 0 and DS_hour set to 0. The standard says the change should happen "within less than a month", so I guess they are OK, although hopefully they will set those fields properly at least a few days before the DST to Standard Time transition.

KTFD is the only station that has got it wrong for sure, since they have DS_day_of_month set to 26. Anyone care to clue them in?

Note also that right now KPXC's time is dead on accurate. Their accuracy puzzles me. The PSIP time of most stations drifts, some more than others. KPXC is normally dead on, i.e. it is perfectly in sync with NTP (network time protocol). So I had thought that their PSIP generator was either using NTP or was using some other atomic reference (WWV, GPS, etc.). However, a couple of weeks ago they started drifting wildly. Right now they are back to being perfectly accurate but I don't know if they will stay that way.

Good, I can blame you then. :p They're doing something horribly wrong. Ever since they started transmitting guide data, my Humax tuner freezes up when I tune to KPXC. I have to unplug it to reset it. I finally removed KPXC from my channel list so I would stop accidentally tuning it in...

I wouldn't automatically assume that the problem is on their end. A lot of stations have made mistakes in their PSIP data; however, nothing jumps out at me as being wrong when I look at their PSIP data. Certainly that does not mean that I didn't miss something. It would be interesting if any other tuner/converter has a problem with KPXC. My DTVpal and my DTT 901 don't seem to have a problem with that station. It is possible that KPXC is doing something different, but still within the standards, than any of the other stations you can receive.

The general rule of thumb with these type of standards is that the sender (i.e. the stations) should be as strict as possible in what they send, but receivers (i.e. digital tuners/converters) should be as permissive as possible in what they receive, i.e. they should still work even in the presence of violations of the standard, as much as possible.

Anyway, unless a lot of other people are having problems with KPXC I doubt you will have much success in getting KPXC to fix the problem, especially if you do not know the cause (other than the problem started when they started sending guide data).

In my opinion, regardless of how bad a channel's psip data is, no box should lock up in the presence of bad data. If the data is bad and the box doesn't know what to do with it then the box should just ignore/skip it. You might want to call Humax technical support to report the problem. Find out if there are any known problems with the version of firmware you have, and whether or not you can get your box upgraded.

I have the ability to check this, but I didn't think to check it on October 1st, so the best I can do is tell you what the stations are doing right now.

All of the Denver area stations have the DS_status bit set to 1. Most of the Denver area stations have DS_day_of_month set to 2 and DS_hour set to 2. That's fine if they set that after October 2nd, as you mentioned above. If they had set it earlier then they were wrong.

KMGH, KFCT, KPXC and KWHD still have DS_day_of_month set to 0 and DS_hour set to 0. The standard says the change should happen "within less than a month", so I guess they are OK, although hopefully they will set those fields properly at least a few days before the DST to Standard Time transition.
...
I started thinking about this some more, and I think there is a flaw in the standard. I don't think the transition date should be anything but 00 unless the transition is to occur during the current month.
While an active receiver can differentiate between between an 02 that was set on the 5th of the month and an 02 that was set on the 1st of the month, a receiver that was powered on for the 1st time on the 10th of the month cannot. In that last case, when the receiver detects the dst on flag, and 02, it has no way of knowing whether dst ended on the 02 of the current month or it will end on 02 of the next month.
Am I missing something?

UPDATE
I now realize I needed to look carefully at the next paragragh of the standard:
After all time zones (within the span of the network) have shifted out of daylight savings time, the DS_status bit takes the value 0, indicating that daylight savings time is off. The DS_day_of_month field and the DS_hour field take the value 0. (In the U.S., this transition has to occur no later than 7 p.m. Pacific Time on the day day_out).
Conditions‘0’ 0 0

This means that on October 3, 2008 an 02 in the transition date field could only refer to November 2, 2008. The standard is not ambiguous, as I orginally thought. In my example, on October 5, 2008 an 02 has to refer to November 2, 2008.

It does appear that some stations jumped the gun, and set the transition date field to 02, on or before October 2, 2008. This caused problems. As I read it, a receiver should conclude that an active DST and an 02 transition date would indicate an October 2, 2008 transition until October 2, 2008 7PM Pacific Time had passed. After that time, the same combination would indicate November 2, 2008. It looks like my Vizio figured it out on October 3, 2008.

In my opinion, regardless of how bad a channel's psip data is, no box should lock up in the presence of bad data. If the data is bad and the box doesn't know what to do with it then the box should just ignore/skip it. You might want to call Humax technical support to report the problem. Find out if there are any known problems with the version of firmware you have, and whether or not you can get your box upgraded.

That might be difficult, my warranty ended 3 years ago! I don't even think they build this thing anymore. I think I'm SOL on this one...

I could definitly live without KPXC... But I still have a problem because the Humax downloads guide data and ocasionally checks for new stations while it's off at night. As soon as it hits KPXC, it freezes. So I wake up to a dead box. I guess I could leave the damn thing on all the time...

I could definitly live without KPXC... But I still have a problem because the Humax downloads guide data and ocasionally checks for new stations while it's off at night. As soon as it hits KPXC, it freezes. So I wake up to a dead box. I guess I could leave the damn thing on all the time...

OMG sounds like a DTVPal in disguise!! :D

Did everyone else just lose the 31 signal on the Broncos game?
I am getting nothing both OTA and via D*
WTF... great timing...

Phil

If you've got NFL Sunday Ticket with D*, tune into the game mix channel. It's showing there, at least.

me too

Did everyone else just lose the 31 signal on the Broncos game?
I am getting nothing both OTA and via D*
WTF... great timing...

Phil

Yep, getting nothing. Watching on 27 out of Cheyenne.

I'm getting it in analog on comcast. NTSC and ATSC and Comcast HD off the air.

I can't get it via E* HD or analog and I can't get it OTA DTV or analog. If the analog OTA signal is blank, something is really wrong.

ch. 13 comcast is working. Their sd digital ch.

For D* customers they put the game on ch 712 & 712-1. Ch31 ota is still out.

D* is allowing viewing on the NFL Sunday ticket channel 712-1 (normally blacked out for local broadcast), if you're a subscriber

ETA: Scott Pro, you beat me by a hair!

back on 31.0

You'd think KDVR would have at least a mention of what's going on posted on their website.

I just checked with a friend and he says its still going in HD OTA. So comcast must have either messed up or re-mapped the channel. My scan is so slow I'll have to wait till 1/2 time to give it a shot.

Not getin it here OTA.

Not getin it here OTA.

Intersting. I know in Greeley we recieve fox from Ft. Collins. So maybe something in the Denver area is messed up but not in Ft collins?

Oh well I suppose. I've been watching in SD and it only makes you appreciate HD even more. ..lol

Will this require KDVR to notify the FCC?

I'm back OTA

Back up here too! :D

Yea it's back now. They must have had something major happen at the TX. My dad said analog even got real fuzzy for a bit right when we lost the digital signal.

Yea it's back now. They must have had something major happen at the TX. My dad said analog even got real fuzzy for a bit right when we lost the digital signal.

My analog OTA for Fox31 was total snow and my analog on E* was a frozen snow picture of probably the scene that was showing when they lost everything.

Everything is back now. It would be nice if Fox31 explained what happened.

BTW, with the game missing in action the wife got me to cut the lawn. Got back with about 9 minutes left in the second half to find all the video restored. The wife probably figures every cloud has a silver lining.

I'm getting it in analog on comcast. NTSC and ATSC and Comcast HD off the air.

I lost it on Comcrap HD also, and had been watching upstairs on analog and only noticed when I went downstairs to turn on my HDTV. At first I thought my DVR/receiver was screwed again as the picture was frozen, and when I went back to the recording, and fast forwarded to get to the current time, it also froze up after like 13 minutes. So I did the old turn off, turn on, with no luck and unplug for over a minute, then turn on again. Still dead, and black picture. I had to go back upstairs to watch on Comcrap analog again. Sometime later, I decided to try channel 13 (instead of 655), and found out it wasn't my DVR/receiver. After probably more than a quarter, I noticed that the HD signal was back.

I was steaming pissed, so at 1/2 time, I called Comcast to rip them one and demand a credit for no service today! At first they said "no credit for only 1 channel out, but I asked for a manager, and after a long wait on hold, she ok'd the credit. Really, I don't give a **** about whether it was 1 channel or all, it was the only program I cared about. Man, to turn off the signal on the Broncos is justifiable homicide, IMHO!!! I hope you guys call and email Fox to rip them for loosing the HD signal. In February, what the hell do we do when there is no analog signal to fall back on? I don't feel bad for getting a credit when it was really Fox's fault since my DVR seems to freeze up every Sunday night around 11 pm for 10 min.+ and I loose all program info after it reboots. Maybe it's running on some Microsuck OS... Comcrap keeps increasing my rates every bill, and the only reason I haven't cancelled yet is because I haven't been able to get my Myth HDTV PVR working.

Will this require KDVR to notify the FCC?

There ought to be some kind of fine, like $10,000 for every minute of outage!

Edit: 9 pm, they just reported that lightning knocked out their tower (or power?) on Lookout mountain FROM 3:18-3:50 pm. That's what worries me about having 75% of the channels on 1 tower. If anything happens to the LCG tower, that knocks out most of the channels.

Lightning strike, according to http://www.myfoxcolorado.com/myfox/pages/Home/Detail?contentId=7582192&version=1&locale=EN-US&layoutCode=TSTY&pageId=1.1.1

There ought to be some kind of fine, like $10,000 for every minute of outage! Anybody have our congressmen's contact info to get a bill passed to punish them?

Bring back the guillotine!

--- CHAS

On the plus side, all we missed were 4 field goals. The demise of Brian and the TDs all occurred after service was restored. IOW, we didn't miss much unless you like the punting game.

I just switched to Direct from Comcast last week and it went out there too but after 10 minutes they popped up a screen redirecting us to the game on NFL Ticket. Looked like the same Fox feed to me.
In the third quarter a message popped up there saying I was not subscribed to that channel. Changed back to 31 and all was well.

I have Directv Sunday ticket and didn't see any reference to see the game on another channel. I had to watch it in their "NFL Game Mix' which shows all games on 8 different squares.

I have Directv Sunday ticket and didn't see any reference to see the game on another channel. I had to watch it in their "NFL Game Mix' which shows all games on 8 different squares.

I have NFLST too and they pretty quickly brought the game on 712-1. I did notice they had a board on 31 saying to tune to the NFLST channels. They did black out the ST feed right at halftime again after 31 was back on the air. I still don't understand why NFLST blacks out the local games after all the $$$ I pay for the damm thing. It is a pain to lose all of the on-screen graphics, and player trackers just to watch the local game. But that is the subject for another thread. Still though, nice of D* to be on top of the problem.

The timing of these 'lightening strikes' is getting weird. Remember KUSA lost their HD feed during the opening ceremony of the Olympics.

I lost it on Comcrap HD also, and had been watching upstairs on analog and only noticed when I went downstairs to turn on my HDTV. At first I thought my DVR/receiver was screwed again as the picture was frozen, and when I went back to the recording, and fast forwarded to get to the current time, it also froze up after like 13 minutes. So I did the old turn off, turn on, with no luck and unplug for over a minute, then turn on again. Still dead, and black picture. I had to go back upstairs to watch on Comcrap analog again. Sometime later, I decided to try channel 13 (instead of 655), and found out it wasn't my DVR/receiver. After probably more than a quarter, I noticed that the HD signal was back.

I was steaming pissed, so at 1/2 time, I called Comcast to rip them one and demand a credit for no service today! At first they said "no credit for only 1 channel out, but I asked for a manager, and after a long wait on hold, she ok'd the credit. Really, I don't give a **** about whether it was 1 channel or all, it was the only program I cared about. Man, to turn off the signal on the Broncos is justifiable homicide, IMHO!!! I hope you guys call and email Fox to rip them for loosing the HD signal. In February, what the hell do we do when there is no analog signal to fall back on? I don't feel bad for getting a credit when it was really Fox's fault since my DVR seems to freeze up every Sunday night around 11 pm for 10 min.+ and I loose all program info after it reboots. Maybe it's running on some Microsuck OS... Comcrap keeps increasing my rates every bill, and the only reason I haven't cancelled yet is because I haven't been able to get my Myth HDTV PVR working.

This wasn't a Comcast issue at all, you need to call them back and tell them you want to give the credit back and apologize. Just think of all the things you told that CSR and supervisor. Was it worth it now, loser?

I turned my antenna north and picked up KFCT. I think I missed 1 or 2 plays. My neighbor called me since he lost the KDVR signal to see if it was his TV - he just bought an HDTV last week. Needless to say, I had an impromtu Bronco's party.

After the game, with my antenna still pointed north, I checked for a signal from KQCK. Zero. Is this station off the air again? Also, with my antenna pointed north, about 75 degrees away from LM, I found that I didn't lose any of the Denver channels, although signal strengths fell from the high 80's/mid 90's to the 70's.

After the game, with my antenna still pointed north, I checked for a signal from KQCK. Zero. Is this station off the air again?

Yes. It made a brief appearance for a few days, and then went dark again. I figured they would be up and down a few times while trying to get things right, since the stream it was sending was so broken. Well they've now been down for almost a week again.

I didn't want to keep reporting everytime it comes up and goes down, since that might mean a lot of reports until this station stabilizes somewhat. I was going to wait for it to come back with something a little more stable or at least something more "interesting" before I reported their status again.

I'm looking at KRMT-DT... I've never seen such a disaster. There are so many things wrong with this station, it's a wonder that any box can see it.

1. Wrong TSID. The TSID is a unique identifier for each station, so tuners can tell them apart. They're transmitting the TSID for KDTN-2 in Dallas, TX, their hub station. Some receivers will balk at that one.


So, it appears that KRMT-DT has made a few changes. They are no longer sending KDTN's TSID. Instead they have set their TSID to 1! I don't know what KRMT's TSID is supposed to be, but I'm fairly certain it is not supposed to be 1.

Anway, this caused an interesting side effect on my DTVpal. It wouldn't tune to KRMT, so I did a scan for additional channels, and it put KRMT on Channel 70. I think I understand why it did this. Because of the TSID change it saw KRMT's stream as a different station trying to share the same display channel (which might legitimately happen when you live in an area that can receive stations from different DMA's). So, it resolved the issue by assigning an alternate display channel outside what would normally be allocated. Seems like a reasonable solution.


2. It appears that they're literally feeding the bitstream right off the satellite dish and into the transmitter. I see all kinds of stuff about satellite in the stream, very little regarding the OTA.


They appear to have fixed this.

3. No PSIP.

Just wow.

- Trip

They are sending minimal PSIP data now. It doesn't contain appropriate values in some cases. One case is the TSID, as mentioned above. Another is the display channel. They are specifying a display channel of 40, which is their digital RF channel. Their display channel should be the analog RF channel for KRMT, which is channel 41.

So, it appears that KRMT-DT has made a few changes. They are no longer sending KDTN's TSID. Instead they have set their TSID to 1! I don't know what KRMT's TSID is supposed to be, but I'm fairly certain it is not supposed to be 1.

469 is the correct TSID. From what I can tell, 1 is not assigned to a station.

They are sending minimal PSIP data now. It doesn't contain appropriate values in some cases. One case is the TSID, as mentioned above. Another is the display channel. They are specifying a display channel of 40, which is their digital RF channel. Their display channel should be the analog RF channel for KRMT, which is channel 41.

I'd ask you if you could send me a new capture but who knows if it'll change again in the near future.

I really wonder what's going on over there. I know they're not the only Daystar station without PSIP, as KWDK-DT in Seattle (a digital-only station, no less) has none.

- Trip

469 is the correct TSID. From what I can tell, 1 is not assigned to a station.


Where do you get that information? I posted in another thread (the DTV allocations thread) asking where that information can be found in the FCC database.


I'd ask you if you could send me a new capture but who knows if it'll change again in the near future.


I sent it to you. I can always send another if they make any more changes (hopefully they will!).

http://www.mstv.org/docs/tsidupdate.pdf

- Trip

I lost it on Comcrap HD also, and had been watching upstairs on analog and only noticed when I went downstairs to turn on my HDTV. ...

Absolutely no consolation, but this reminds me of well more than a decade or two ago, in my town north of Hartford Connecticut:

In the middle of the Super Bowl broadcast, the cold January weather caused many COAX connections to the brand new Cable TV service to pop loose all over town. It is my understanding that many really fussed and fumed instead of simply reverting to their OTA rabbit ears.

What is the signal strength % as of now for the Denver stations as compared to full power?

I was hoping for something like
channel 31 is broadcasting at 1mW but will go to 1.21 jiggawatts in February so its at x% right now.

Figure of 1.21 jiggawatts from Dr. E Brown and not confirmed. :D

KWGN-DT 34 Currently at 813' 450 kW DA but has a permit for 1102' 1000 kW ND (Medium improvement)
KCNC-DT 35 Currently at 1226' 978 kW DA but has a permit for 1226' 1000 kW DA (No real difference)
KRMA-DT 18 Currently at 1086' 115 kW DA but has a permit for 1128' 1000 kW DA (Big improvement)
KMGH-DT 17 Currently at 1079' 30 kW DA but has a permit for channel 7, 1177' 27 kW DA (Big improvement)
KUSA-DT 16 Currently at 1228' 37 kW DA but has a permit for channel 9, 1155' 6 kW DA and an application for 1155' 45 kW DA (Big improvement)
KBDI-DT 38 Currently at 2400' 42 kW DA but has a permit for channel 13, 2420' 33.6 kW DA (Big improvement)
KTVD-DT 19 Currently at 1080' 96 kW DA but has applied for 1226' 1000 kW DA (Medium improvement)
KDVR-DT 32 Currently at 970' 223 kW DA but has a permit for 1039' 1000 kW ND (Medium improvement)

That covers the network stations.

- Trip

KUSA-DT 16 Currently at 1228' 37 kW DA but has a permit for channel 9, 1155' 6 kW DA and an application for 1155' 45 kW DA (Big improvement)

- Trip

I think you are overly optimistic. I'd term it as "perhaps a moderate improvement, but it remains to be seen".

I know, I keep beating the same drum, but I hope I'm pleasantly surprised on 2/18/09. Meanwhile, I maintain my serious doubts about tremendous signal improvement just because KUSA goes from low UHF to high VHF.

I've seen upper VHF work poorly and I've seen it work very well. The difference? Power level. The two signals I've seen at 3.2 kW are useless. The one at 0.4 kW is useless. But the one at 16.4 kW? The one at 23 kW? The one at 35 kW? All were quite usable. The 16.4 kW one was just as receivable as a 50 kW UHF at the same distance (with rabbit ears for VHF and Silver Sensor for UHF) and the 35 kW one was just as receivable as a 795 kW UHF off the same tower (again, with rabbit ears for the VHF and Silver Sensor for UHF).

KUSA-DT at 6 kW would probably be a net loss. KUSA-DT at 45 kW would probably be a nice improvement. What will be an issue is electrical noise like lightning. That'll cause breakups but shouldn't do like low-VHF and raise the noise floor so much as to make it worthless.

Of course, any signal change is a question mark, but I'm not quite as pessimistic about the move to upper VHF as you are.

- Trip

Yep, getting nothing. Watching on 27 out of Cheyenne.

That's what I did. The paper said it was a lightning strike that took out the antenna for 31

That's what I did. The paper said it was a lightning strike that took out the antenna for 31

Don't they have a repeater in Fort Collins now? Was it down too?

Don't they have a repeater in Fort Collins now? Was it down too?

They do have a repeater, I wasn't getting anything from it either.

The repeater is KFCT, RF 21. I switched to it for the game, as I posted earlier, and I'm, what, 40 miles farther away.

Did something happen to KMGH-DT during the past week or so? I first noticed on Sunday morning that my signal strength for KMGH-DT had dropped by about 20-25%. At the time, I assumed that this was a temporary aberation, but it hasn't really bounced back, so I was wondering whether anyone else has noticed this? I haven't noticed any drop in signal strength on any other stations.

Did something happen to KMGH-DT during the past week or so? I first noticed on Sunday morning that my signal strength for KMGH-DT had dropped by about 20-25%. At the time, I assumed that this was a temporary aberation, but it hasn't really bounced back, so I was wondering whether anyone else has noticed this? I haven't noticed any drop in signal strength on any other stations.

Actually, KMGH seems is a bit stronger on my Zenith converter box.

KMGH-DT is as strong as ever here.

Ding dong, weather minus is dead: http://www.broadcastingcable.com/index.asp?layout=articlePrint&articleID=CA6602781

:D

Is 9-2 dark yet?

Ding dong, weather minus is dead: http://www.broadcastingcable.com/index.asp?layout=articlePrint&articleID=CA6602781

:D

Is 9-2 dark yet?

WOOHOO!!!

Now we just have to hope they actually get rid of the subchannel, unlike 2-2.

I'm one who will miss the weather subchannel. I don't want to have to tune to a local news program to check what the temperature is going to be or what is expected to be the low tonight.

In all seriousness:

You don't have a computer with internet access? On my MacBook, I just press F4 to go to the dashboard and see a 5-day forecast. In Firefox, I've got the WeatherFox extension which has a 3-day forecast at the bottom of my browser at all times.

My wife used to watch WeatherMinus as well - I just never saw the value.

i <3 Denver

When I watch TV, I don't use the laptop. When I'm at the computer, I don't watch TV. Guess old fogies like me don't multitask well. :eek:

Seriously, though, WP had some value as Mike described: A quick check on things without having to wait until noon, or 5 o'clock, or 10 o'clock. Please note the word quick: Beyond 10 minutes of viewing, it got nauseating really fast.

My computer is usually off. I've got a dial-up connection. It's much quicker to turn on the TV and watch the weather channel than it is to turn the computer on, wait for it to load the OS, log on to the internet, load Firefox, wait for the weather page to appear.

WOOHOO!!!

Now we just have to hope they actually get rid of the subchannel, unlike 2-2.

Betcha a nickel that they still keep it lit up, and stealing bandwidth... :rolleyes:

Ding dong, weather minus is dead: http://www.broadcastingcable.com/index.asp?layout=articlePrint&articleID=CA6602781

:D

Is 9-2 dark yet?This is the best news I've heard all week. Too bad they didn't do this before the Olympics, though.

I also found value in 9-2, Weather Plus. Not at all for the national weather, which was boring in presented by a bunch of, what seemed like, high school science students. But, the local weather presentation was good. Got the same level of content and information as they provided in their scheduled newscasts.

Yes, I can get the 5-day forecast on my computer after I turn it on and it boots up, but that doesn't give me the big picture that 9News' weather people provide.

I seriously doubt KUSA will shut off 9.2. They'll either fill it with different crap, or keep that sucker going by producing all of the content themselves, like KKTV in the Springs.

I also found value in 9-2, Weather Plus. Not at all for the national weather, which was boring in presented by a bunch of, what seemed like, high school science students. But, the local weather presentation was good. Got the same level of content and information as they provided in their scheduled newscasts.

Yes, I can get the 5-day forecast on my computer after I turn it on and it boots up, but that doesn't give me the big picture that 9News' weather people provide.

We still can get 9-2. My wife checks it a lot. Our alternative is the newspaper or: http://www.accuweather.com/index.asp?partner=lmtfyi&amp;zipcode=

A “significant number” of employees at Denver’s KWGN-TV, Channel 2, were laid off Tuesday as the station prepares to consolidate operations with KDVR-TV, Channel 31.

Employees at Channel 2’s Denver Tech Center studios were notified of the layoffs Tuesday, said Dennis O’Brien, station CFO.

He also said that Carl Bilek, the station’s news director, has “not been retained.”

O’Brien said he didn’t know how many people have been laid off at the station or whether any on-air personalities were let go.

“Were there a significant number [laid off]? Yes,” he said.

O’Brien would not confirm a claim by a source at the station that about 40 employees had been let go.

Veteran news anchor Ernie Bjorkman told The Denver Post that he was advised his last day at the station would be Dec. 31. Bjorkman is anchor of Channel 2’s 5:30 and 9 p.m. newscasts.

Channels 2 and 31, while separately owned, have been jointly managed since Oct. 1, and observers were expecting that the arrangement would lead to staff reductions at one or both stations.

Local TV LLC owns Channel 31, which is a Fox network affiliate, while Channel 2, a CW affiliate, is owned by Tribune Co.

Channel 2 plans to relocate its operations and staff to the Channel 31 offices at 100 E. Speer Blvd. by early next year, O’Brien said.

Dennis Leonard, the new general manager of KDVR, now oversees operations at both stations. He couldn’t be reached Tuesday.

Last month, he said that the two stations were “evaluating how things will change.” That includes “evaluating the talent and people we have on both sides.”

Leonard said the newscasts and sales departments would remain separate, but there would be consolidation involving the back office and newsgathering areas. The two stations would share camera crews and editors, he said
Denver Business Journal - by Mark Harden

...Veteran news anchor Ernie Bjorkman told The Denver Post that he was advised his last day at the station would be Dec. 31....

Aw, man, he was about the only one there I could tolerate on a regular basis. BTW, what ever happened to Mark Soicier, he disappeared virtually overnight?

Aw, man, he was about the only one there I could tolerate on a regular basis. BTW, what ever happened to Mark Soicier, he disappeared virtually overnight?

Been gone for a while, story here (http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-180730345.html).

Tower Dude, thanks for that. This is really too bad. KWGN had a terrific news operation for an independent station. They were competitive with those of the "big-network" affiliates, and they absolutely stomped KDVR in newscast quality. I know a lot of people who would watch no one else on the market for news. Best of luck, folks. :(

Been gone for a while, story here (http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-180730345.html).

But his brother and his bobble heads get to stay on the air. The world is not fair...

But his brother and his bobble heads get to stay on the air. The world is not fair...

No kidding. I'll never understand that vaudeville act they call a sportscast. I thought the weather guy is supposed to be the wacky one...

No kidding. I'll never understand that vaudeville act they call a sportscast. I thought the weather guy is supposed to be the wacky one...

Drew's about the only sportscaster I can stand.

Probably because I don't really care about sports.

No kidding. I'll never understand that vaudeville act they call a sportscast. I thought the weather guy is supposed to be the wacky one...

I think Ron Zappolo was the best sportscaster in Denver, if not one of the best I've seen anywhere. I wish he had stayed with sports because I don't think he makes a very good news anchor. He certainly left a big hole at the sports desk when he left KUSA.

Maybe this is the wrong forum to post but I need to start somewhere;-) Both my digital TV's can tune krma-dt (6.1) just fine. However, although the Signal strength meter in my HTPC reports a fairly strong signal (usually) for 6.1. If I attempt to tune it using MCE (XP 2005) I get "No signal" Is this:

a) a FAQ and I just need to look for the answer there
b) a problem with MCE (My suspicion, but I don't know where to find help with that)
c) some other known problem.

Additional data. The signal strength scan usually says strong signal but oddly, an immediate rescan sometimes says little or no signal, using the MCE Digital signal strength setup scan. All signals are from the same attic antenna with the connection to the working TV on one port of a 2x1 splitter and the non-working HTPC on the other port of the splitter.

Any and all help/suggestions greatly appreciated.

Back in the day, it was necessary to leave alternate VHF channels empty ot avoid interference because co-channel filters were not very selective. The only exception I knew of in the San Francisco Bay Area back in the 1960s were KRON (4) and KCBS (5).

Co-channel interference does not seem to be an issue for DTV in the Denver area. Digital channels 15, 16, 17, 18, and 19 are all currently occupied. Post-transition, KUSA-DT and KMGH-DT will leave digital channels 16 and 17 respectively, but won't KRMA-DT and KTVD-DT remain right next to one another?


Jim McCauley

Jim, there's a 4-MHz gap between channels 4 and 5 -- two-thirds of a standard channel. They're not right next to each other, and so both channels got used in many big markets. It happened in both NYC and Boston as well.

Yup, 6.1 and 20.1 are assigned to 18 and 19, and they have KTVD analog next door at 20. Other current side-by-sides include KTFD (14 analog, 15 digital); KDVR (31 analog, 32 digital), KMAS-LP (33 analog), KWGN (34 digital), KCNC (35 digital) and KDVT-LP (36 analog); KBDI (38 digital), KQDK-LP (39 analog) and KRMT (40 digital, 41 analog); KHDT-LP (45 analog) and KWHD (46 digital); and KCEC (50 analog, 51 digital). Even after the transition, 33-36 will still be assigned hereabouts. Guess it's not the issue it once was.

The FCC has some rules regarding location of transmitters for adjacent digital channels. I'm not sure of the distance, but I seem to recollect it's 17 miles within a DMA. If transmitters are that close or closer, channels can be adjacent. I suspect it has to do with a combination of a better ability of digital tuners to reject adjacent channels and that stations close together have relatively the same power/ERP, so they don't step on one another. A larger distance between transmitters would result in a strong signal on one channel and a weak signal on an adjacent channel unless you happened to be equidistant from both stations, which wouldn't be the case for the vast majority in a viewing area.

Originally posted by 'mbuchana' on the Northern Colorado DTV forum on 8 October 2008:

This should be interesting (from the RMPBS e-mail newsletter):

DTV MEETING IN FORT COLLINS
Rocky Mountain PBS will be holding a community meeting in Fort Collins on October 20 to discuss the digital transition and its impact on Northern Colorado. The event is free and open to the public.

Monday, October 20, 4-5:30 p.m.
Main Library
Ben Delatour Meeting Room
201 Peterson Street
Fort Collins, CO 80524
(970) 221-6740

Will the message be: "Sorry, no OTA for RMPBS in Northern Colorado for awhile" or will there be better news?

I'm hoping for better news, although I have absolutely no inside information on the topic.

I post this here in case there are NorCo folks on this forum who don't track the forum on which this first appeared.

I'm also hoping that RMPBS will have meetings in other areas that are affected by the current digital signal distribution.


Jim McCauley

Jim, there's a 4-MHz gap between channels 4 and 5 -- two-thirds of a standard channel.
Interesting. Is there a current service offered within the gap? If not, are there historical reasons for the gap's existence?


Jim McCauley

Interesting. Is there a current service offered within the gap? If not, are there historical reasons for the gap's existence?

Decades ago a portion of it was used by amateur ("ham") radio operators; they called it the 4-meter band. It's now used for federal and private fixed-mobile services, radio astronomy and aeronautical radio navigation. There's very little of the radio spectrum below 300 GHz (!) that hasn't been allocated for one use or another.

Sorry, wrong, google before you post.

Digital tv is a whole other animal, any habits you had that worked for analog need to go out the window.

Sorry, wrong, google before you post.

Digital tv is a whole other animal, any habits you had that worked for analog need to go out the window.

Huh?

Can anyone help? My HR20 D* reciever suddenly (as in last 48 hours) no longer believes that KTVD-DT is being broadcast on channel 19 and remapped to channel 20-1 (as it has been for the 13 months that I have had the reciever) it now believes that is is being remapped (according to D* anyway) to channel 41-1! I had a fruitless conversation with a D* rep this evening (the minute you say 'off-air-signal' they glaze over) and would appreciate anyone on the thread verifying that KTVD is INDEED still remapping channel 20-1, since they insist it is a problem on KTVD's end.

Can anyone help? My HR20 D* reciever suddenly (as in last 48 hours) no longer believes that KTVD-DT is being broadcast on channel 19 and remapped to channel 20-1 (as it has been for the 13 months that I have had the reciever) it now believes that is is being remapped (according to D* anyway) to channel 41-1! I had a fruitless conversation with a D* rep this evening (the minute you say 'off-air-signal' they glaze over) and would appreciate anyone on the thread verifying that KTVD is INDEED still remapping channel 20-1, since they insist it is a problem on KTVD's end.

I had the same problem with my HR21 with OTA module. I eventually had to clear and redo the OTA settings. That seemed to fix it. You may try a reboot first.

Commissioner Copps to Visit Denver, CO, for DTV Outreach

http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DOC-286009A1.pdf

WHO: FCC Commissioner Michael J. Copps
WHAT: Town Hall on the DTV Transition
WHEN: Thursday, October 16, 2008, 2:00 P.M. – 3:00 P.M.
WHERE: Circuit City Store #3581
7950 East 49th Avenue
Denver, CO 80238-2874
Phone: 303-373-2627

You would think they could spend more than an hour on this, especially since it is being held during working hours.

You would think they could spend more than an hour on this, especially since it is being held during working hours.

This just yells "photo op." If the FCC were serious, they'd hold a hearing.

There is nothing in the PDF that indicates an agenda or any opportunity for public input. Just PR, I think.


Jim McCauley

Sorry, wrong, google before you post.

Digital tv is a whole other animal, any habits you had that worked for analog need to go out the window.

Daisy, Daisy....

FCC Moves to Reserve Free Wireless Waves
United Press International

Photo October 13, 2008 - The Federal Communications Commission says it will move forward with plans to reserve valuable empty U.S. airwave spectrum for free wireless Internet use.
The move is opposed by large corporate carriers such as T-Mobile, Verizon Wireless and AT&T, which say their customers will experience interference from users of the new spectrum. A report released Friday by FCC engineers, however, disputes that, saying field tests showed little interference, The Washington Post reported.

FCC Chairman Kevin Martin wants to use the available spectrum for future free community-based wireless broadband connectivity providers, as well as for specialty private service providers.

"We need to reserve some spectrum for free broadband services," Martin told the Post. "This would be lifeline broadband service Â… that would be designed for lower-income people who may not otherwise have access to the Internet."

One vocal opponent to the plan has been T-Mobile, which says it will cause major disruption for users at a time when it is unveiling its new G1 phone in partnership with Google, the newspaper said.

Photo October 13, 2008 - The Federal Communications Commission says it will move forward with plans to reserve valuable empty U.S. airwave spectrum for free wireless Internet use.

Considering that cell phone can sometimes cause interference with DTV reception, I don't see how these WSD's will be able to co-exist in-band.

If nothing else I am certain that my pre-amp will be rendered useless if any such devices are used within several hundred feet.

Also, if they allow adjacent channels to be used, relative power differences could make adjacent DTV channels difficult to receive.

I don't see anything on the FCC's site yet, but sometimes I question the real goals of the transition.

Edit: After further review, this release appears to be for a higher frequency band and not WSD's.

This just yells "photo op." If the FCC were serious, they'd hold a hearing.

There is nothing in the PDF that indicates an agenda or any opportunity for public input. Just PR, I think.


Here is a link to a report as respects the FCC's visit to Oakland/San Francisco a few weeks ago.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14701132#post14701132

However, an hour seems far too short for me, especially if it is during working hours.

Sorry, wrong, google before you post.

Digital tv is a whole other animal, any habits you had that worked for analog need to go out the window.

I can't remember. What did H.A.L. stand for?

I can't remember. What did H.A.L. stand for?H.A.L. are the letters right before I.B.M.

Was it Sunday's Denver Post that had the advise on which antenna to buy - UHF since that is all there will be after the transition?

I can't remember. What did H.A.L. stand for?

Arthur C. Clarke claims that it was short for Heuristic ALgorithmic (Which was supposed to be the name of the company that made the HAL 9000).

H.A.L. are the letters right before I.B.M.

Both Arthur C. Clarke and Stanley Kubrick vehemently deny that they chose the name based on that method. Of course they could be lying, but I'm not sure what the motivation would be. It certainly is an interesting coincidence if it was not intentional.

Was it Sunday's Denver Post that had the advise on which antenna to buy - UHF since that is all there will be after the transition?

Yes... and no. David Migoya was dead wrong about UHF-only digital broadcasts. KMGH, KUSA and KBDI will be broadcasting DTV from VHF-high channels 7, 9 and 13 immediately after the transition. All other stations will be UHF.

I noticed a few weeks ago that KPJR applied for a STA to operate their new station at a lower power than their final approved power (1000KW). However, I just reread it:

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/prefill_and_display.pl?Application_id=1267555&Service=DS&Form_id=911&Facility_id=166510

and it appears that they are actually asking to be able to operate on Channel 38 before the transition. KPJR is a new station (Trinity Broadcasting Network). They were granted a construction permit to operate on Channel 38 after the transition. As most of you know, KBDI is currently operating their digital station on Channel 38, and they are not planning on making the transition to Channel 13 until the transition date.

In their application KPJR indicates that they will not interfere with any PRE or post transition station. Am I reading this correctly? What am I missing? How could they miss KBDI-DT's pre transition operation on Channel 38?

and it appears that they are actually asking to be able to operate on Channel 38 before the transition. KPJR is a new station (Trinity Broadcasting Network). They were granted a construction permit to operate on Channel 38 after the transition. As most of you know, KBDI is currently operating their digital station on Channel 38, and they are not planning on making the transition to Channel 13 until the transition date.

In their application KPJR indicates that they will not interfere with any PRE or post transition station. Am I reading this correctly? What am I missing? How could they miss KBDI-DT's pre transition operation on Channel 38?

I saw that and would have posted about it except that I also didn't know what to make of it. I can't see a way for them to sign it on without interfering with KBDI-DT.

I imagine we'll have to wait and see what the FCC says. I'm sure they've called the TBN people and have more clarification on it than we do. I've begun to gather that the FCC does a fair amount of private communication with stations that doesn't get posted online in any way, shape, or form.

I'm thinking this gets granted on the condition of not signing on until next year.

- Trip

I read the KPJR STA application and find no reference to the station requesting that they sign on before 2-17-09. The way I read the application, the station apparently will not have its final full power facilities completed by 2-17-09, so they are asking for permission to operate at low power until construction is completed. In addition, unless their rep/engineer is/are downright stupid, I don't see how they could miss KBDI on channel 38 unless the STA request is for 2-17-09 and forward.

I read the KPJR STA application and find no reference to the station requesting that they sign on before 2-17-09. The way I read the application, the station apparently will not have its final full power facilities completed by 2-17-09, so they are asking for permission to operate at low power until construction is completed. In addition, unless their rep/engineer is/are downright stupid, I don't see how they could miss KBDI on channel 38 unless the STA request is for 2-17-09 and forward.

It was this quote from the first paragraph of their engineering statement:

... in support of its request for Special Temporary Authority to operate pre- and post-transition on Channel 38 with a reduced effective radiated power ...


and this quote from the last paragraph:

It concludes that the proposed temporary operation of the KPJR-DT auxiliary facility will not cause more than 0.5 percent interference to any analog, pre-transition or post-transition digital television facility or Class A low power television station.

that I am wondering about. The first quote specifically mentions operating pre-transition, and the second quote says that they won't interfere with any pre-transition digital television facility.

Perhaps this is just a cut and paste error (I imagine that some consulting engineers are fairly busy churning out applications during this pre-transition period).

Is anyone interested in seeing PBS election coverage in native 16x9 widescreen, or is 4x3 letterbox stretched on a 16x9 screen acceptable?

I ask only because one of the local PBS stations in Denver will be taking the letterbox PBS coverage, adding 4x3 cut-in's at the top of the hour, and feeding this to both the analog and digital channels.

Is there any audience on the digital channel? Or is most of the audience still analog at this point?

HD1080i,
Thanks for stopping in. I think most of the people on this forum are digitial channel fans. I think that I can speak for eveyone here that we would prefer the 16x9 native resolution versus 4x3 stretched. There are surely more analog viewers at this point, but the OTA audience for the digital channels has grown rapidly in the past few years.

On a related note, I wonder if you could provide your opinion as to why there has been a hold up with the local PBS channels being offered through Directv's satellite service. Directv announced several months ago that they would offer the local PBS on their service before the end of the year. Any insight?

HD1080i,
My set can't zoom in on a letterboxed 16:9 image. So, I end up with a 16:9 postage stamp in the middle with black bars all around. 16:9 letterboxed inside a 4:3 window is a really terrible format for me and I suspect for many others. I've noticed Rocky Mountain PBS using this format more often lately.

Sorry, nothing to offer re: DirectTv. My best guess is that it's a DirectTv internal matter.

As to the other matter, it seems that digital TV viewers are kinda quiet regarding what they want to see on the digital channel. Without hard numbers, it's difficult to convince anyone that the typical public television audience consists of anyone who isn't 80+, wants to watch Lawrence Welk on their Philco 21" B&W console with FM multiplex built-in. There doesn't seem to be an advocate for local public television widescreen broadcast.

THIS MEETING COULD BE A BIG DEAL. There will be a member of the RMPBS engineering staff who will be ready to discuss technical matters, and Pam Osborne, the PR staffer and blogger, will be ready to talk about station policy. They may use the meeting to announce plans to keep KRMA visible in Northern Colorado after 17 February 2009 -- or they may explain why that ain't gonna happen.

I spoke to a reporter at _The Coloradoan_ and an editor at _Fort Collins Now_. Because Monday is a busy news day (Sarah Palin is coming to Loveland), it is not certain that local media will be able to send someone to cover the meeting. So...

IF YOU WANT TO KNOW WHAT IS GOING ON, SHOW UP.

Again: the meeting details:

Monday, October 20, 4-5:30 p.m.
Main Library
Ben Delatour Meeting Room
201 Peterson Street
Fort Collins, CO 80524


Jim McCauley

HD1080i
Many of us here would be happy to give input on what we would like to see.
1. I would definitely prefer the 16:9 over anything stretched.
2. Your prime time programming is good for the most part, but really, I'd like to see more of your regular programs (even if they aren't HD) instead of that "create" programming.
3. You lost a good chunk of your DT audience about a year ago. Many of us north of Denver (Louisville, Lafayette, Longmont, Loveland, etc.) used to receive KRMA 18 just fine when it was broadcast from downtown. But with your new Morrison location, we are having lots of trouble getting your signal. Many of us have tried to contact KRMA, but we have received almost no information on what the problem might be and how you plan to solve it. Any insight you might be able to give us would be appreciated.

Is anyone interested in seeing PBS election coverage in native 16x9 widescreen, or is 4x3 letterbox stretched on a 16x9 screen acceptable?

Native 16x9 widescreen would always be my preference, but I think that would be true for anyone who owns an HDTV.

Is there any audience on the digital channel? Or is most of the audience still analog at this point?

My guess is that up to now, the digital audience has been smaller than the analog audience, but with the proliferation of digital-to-analog converter boxes and other products with ATSC tuners, I'm sure the digital audience has been growing steadily during the past couple of years.

Personally, I dropped Comcast just a few months ago in favor of OTA DTV after having cable for the past 30 years. That says a lot about the difference in quality between analog and digital. I have to believe that many more people are considering the switch from subscription TV to OTA DTV. I've seen a lot of complaints about the conversion from analog to digital, but as far as I'm concerned, it's awesome!!