Fox News is in HD on D* ! Gretta looks good.

HD1080i
3. You lost a good chunk of your DT audience about a year ago. Many of us north of Denver (Louisville, Lafayette, Longmont, Loveland, etc.) used to receive KRMA 18 just fine when it was broadcast from downtown. But with your new Morrison location, we are having lots of trouble getting your signal. Many of us have tried to contact KRMA, but we have received almost no information on what the problem might be and how you plan to solve it. Any insight you might be able to give us would be appreciated.

One correction: in Fort Collins/Loveland we couldn't get KRMA-DT 18 when they broadcast from downtown either.

HD1080i,

On a related note, I wonder if you could provide your opinion as to why there has been a hold up with the local PBS channels being offered through Directv's satellite service. Directv announced several months ago that they would offer the local PBS on their service before the end of the year. Any insight?

I was told by a D* csr a while back that each local pbs station was a separate negotiation with D* and that after each negotiation became successful, that station would be added to the local area's channel list.
That sounded good, but I wonder if it's true. Sure sounds long, and drawn out.

Well, channel 31 is showing the Bronco game tonight for those that can't get ESPN. That's fine. They are going to show "Prison Break' tomorrow night. I bet "Prison Break" won't be in HD. It seems every time any of the stations show a program at later time it is never in HD. I don't understand why!

Well, channel 31 is showing the Bronco game tonight for those that can't get ESPN. That's fine. They are going to show "Prison Break' tomorrow night. I bet "Prison Break" won't be in HD. It seems every time any of the stations show a program at later time it is never in HD. I don't understand why!

"Prison Break", who cares. What about "Terminator: The Sarah Connor Chronicles"? No episode last week because of some baseball game and now we'll miss a new episode in HD because of the donkeys. I need my "Terminator" fix here and now.

BTW, if you think "Terminator" is just for kids and Sci-Fi nuts, note that I'm getting my first SS check this week and I've converted 3 of my over-70 ski buddies into fanatical followers of this show. Go Sarah!

"Prison Break", who cares. What about "Terminator: The Sarah Connor Chronicles"? No episode last week because of some baseball game and now we'll miss a new episode in HD because of the donkeys. I need my "Terminator" fix here and now.

BTW, if you think "Terminator" is just for kids and Sci-Fi nuts, note that I'm getting my first SS check this week and I've converted 3 of my over-70 ski buddies into fanatical followers of this show. Go Sarah!

I'm a sucker for the whole franchise, and I'm looking forward to the fourth movie installment next year. There are some holes in the plots trying to keep the mythology straight, but it's an interesting and fun show to watch (and certain characters are pretty easy on the eyes:))

The Broncos opener they played T:SCC early before the game and I didn't catch it on the DVR. I missed another episode when I switched from Comcast to Direct and forgot to set the series record. I watched both of those on the internet from the Fox website, and played through the VGA port on my 32" LCD, it really wasn't bad.

"Prison Break", who cares. What about "Terminator: The Sarah Connor Chronicles"? No episode last week because of some baseball game and now we'll miss a new episode in HD because of the donkeys. I need my "Terminator" fix here and now.

BTW, if you think "Terminator" is just for kids and Sci-Fi nuts, note that I'm getting my first SS check this week and I've converted 3 of my over-70 ski buddies into fanatical followers of this show. Go Sarah!

Terminator is on right now. They moved it to 10:30 pm. Luckily my Comcast DVR automatically records the series and last night I noticed they had moved it to 10:30. Fortunately I stayed up past the news to notice they started it 20 minutes late, so extended the recording end time by 30 minutes. I didn't even notice the season opener and luckily my DVR also automatically recorded it (since I had set up the series recording last season) when it was on at 6 pm before the first Broncos game.

Yeah, Teminator for us geeks! I don't care about that ghetto prison show either.

On another note, anybody else here with Comcrap cable loose all their lower channels on Thursday morning sometime after midnight until 8 am, and again on Friday morning during the morning rush hour? I tried to tune in SpeedTV on 77 sometime after midnight on Thursday morning on my TV in my bedroom which does not have a cable box, but got snow, while it was viewable on my digital HD-DVR in my living room. In the morning, when I tried to tune in local weather and traffic while getting dressed in the bedroom, all the lower channels were snow except 3 and 8, but everything worked on my digital box. This happened one day a few weeks also in the morning, but was ok when I got home in the evening. I wonder if they are testing moving frequencies or something. I posted about this in the Comcast thread, but probably since that's not local, didn't hear of anyone else noticing the same thing. I need to spend some time in a couple of weekends getting my Myth HTPC working so I can finally cancel cable!

Yeah, I watched it in all of its SD glory. I don't understand why KDVR doesn't yet have the equipment to record HD?

Anyone note the sound or lack of sound problem on Fox31 OTA DTV last night for the game and for Terminator? I watched the game on ESPN, but flipped over to Fox31 just to see how well they were doing with the broadcast. Video was fine, same as ESPN, but I couldn't hear anything even with my Sony A/V receiver cranked up to 50. Same problem when I switched to Fox31 for Terminator. Fortunately, I also have Fox31 DTV via Dish and that broadcast didn't have a sound problem.

Checked this morning and the sound on OTA Fox31 DTV is fine.

I have Dish also and the sound was out for me too on Fox31 OTA DTV during the Bronco game. All other OTA and satellite channels were okay. I had to switch to the local satellite HD channel. Luckily I had the foresight to switch the timer for post-game post-news Sarah Connor to the same channel (and to extend it 15 minutes), so it looks like I got it okay.

The OTA game on KDVR-DT here had chronic A/V sync issues and audio glitches. Both video and audio would conk out for about four seconds, and then come back with everything back in sync, at regular intervals of about two minutes. Audio stutters occurred every few seconds. Both situations occurred throughout. (Come to think of it, the HD broadcast bore a certain resemblance to the Broncos' game on both sides of the ball!)

Spent about 15 minutes watching the analog broadcast during the second quarter, and saw no such problems. It wasn't a transmission issue; I had the signal-level meter on the display through several blank-outs, and it didn't budge from 31.1's usual reading in the high 80s. Based on the differing experiences detailed in other comments, I surmise that my receiver kept stumbling over something in KDVR's data stream.

"Prison Break", who cares. What about "Terminator: The Sarah Connor Chronicles"? No episode last week because of some baseball game and now we'll miss a new episode in HD because of the donkeys. I need my "Terminator" fix here and now.



To top that off there won't be a new ep for 2 weeks now either.:(

I'm sure ratings will slide because of it.

There was a story in Westword this week regarding the Fox 31/KWGN2 deal.

Westword Link (http://www.westword.com/2008-10-23/news/channels-2-and-31-mix-it-up-in-denver/)

Too bad Fox31 is wiping out most of WB2. I think WB2's morning news is much better, especially as they do the weather every 10 minutes. Although there isn't any worthwhile WB prime time programming and (other than NFL)The Terminator is the only prime time show on Fox, WB2's news is superior IMHO.

Anybody notice that analog Channel 7 ABC has been poor snowy picture since last night (part way through Nightline)?

I've never understood why 31 News always beats News 2 in ratings. News 2 is so much more professional. I'm gonna miss them...

Too bad Fox31 is wiping out most of WB2. I think WB2's morning news is much better, especially as they do the weather every 10 minutes. Although there isn't any worthwhile WB prime time programming and (other than NFL)The Terminator is the only prime time show on Fox, WB2's news is superior IMHO.

Anybody notice that analog Channel 7 ABC has been poor snowy picture since last night (part way through Nightline)?

I think that Tom, Natalie, and Angie present the best metro morning newscast. It will truly be a shame if they are dumped or reduced in scope. Fox31's morning news has just never caught on in my book. That's the one they should scrap. It's just flat boring and trying too hard to be some version of morning PBS news.

As to the evening and late night news, I don't watch either in the evening rush hour period and the few times I watch news at 9 PM, it is typically Fox31. Nothing against Ernie, I think he is a stellar anchor talent, but their newscast just has never seemed pleasant to watch.

Fox31, OTOH, has a great team in Ron and Libby. Libby is definitely one of the best local anchor-babes; lots of personality and inter-play with Ron. She seems like the kind of gal you'd like to have working with you in the office where you work.

KCNC-DT 35 Currently at 1226' 978 kW DA but has a permit for 1226' 1000 kW DA (No real difference)
- Trip

Trip stated above that KCNC-DT is currently broadcasting with an ERP of 978 kW. That just doesn't jive with my reception of channel 35. With a set-top antenna, I receive KWGN-DT (34) readily, but KCNC-DT is a much weaker signal with the same antenna and a Zenith DTT900 STB. Seems like their licensing is currently only good to 500 kW, so is that what they are really broadcasting at? Anybody know for sure?

And if it did, would that be a bad thing?

I've thought a lot about this, and my reasoning is not yet complete, so please bear with me.

Here's the deal: Cable and satellite penetration is such that only something like 20% of Americans get their televised entertainment from terrestrial broadcast. Cable and satellite providers won't require their viewers to to buy new sets, and the value proposition of HD is questionable, at least at this point.

OTA viewers will probably depend in large part on coupon-eligible set top boxes (CECBs) for reception for some time (I know I will), so it's looking like the retail market for new sets will be pretty thin, especially with a recession on. So what's the motivation for buying a digital set at all? Many viewers may be so pleased by the picture quality out of their CECBs that they will regard a new set as unnecessary for years -- assuming that they can get reception under the new regime.

If reception is spotty, things get squirrely. That population of OTA viewers may shrink dramatically after the February changeover if reception is as problematic as indicated in the recent test, because a lot of them will go to cable or satelite.

If the small population of current viewers begin to desert OTA in earnest, what economic motivation is there for broadcasters to spend on broadcasting? They might be motivated to maintain a broadcast presence only to oblige cable and satellite vendors to keep them on due to the must-carry rule. If they could convince those carriers to keep them on cable and satellite without a broadcast presence, and if the FCC allowed it, why should they remain on the air?

The whitespace initiative (http://freetheairwaves.com/) is interesting in this respect. The idea is to deploy unused bandwidth in highband VHF and/or UHF TV for use in constructing a stupendous (and largely ad-hoc) wireless Internet infrastructure, implemented as a mesh network. If broadcast TV has a lower net market value than such a network, why should it be subsidized -- especially when those video services might be delivered with higher economic efficiency over a wireless broadband mesh?

Jim McCauley

And if it did, would that be a bad thing?
...
Jim McCauley

Recurring expense!

Trip stated above that KCNC-DT is currently broadcasting with an ERP of 978 kW. That just doesn't jive with my reception of channel 35. With a set-top antenna, I receive KWGN-DT (34) readily, but KCNC-DT is a much weaker signal with the same antenna and a Zenith DTT900 STB. Seems like their licensing is currently only good to 500 kW, so is that what they are really broadcasting at? Anybody know for sure?

KWGN is at 450 kW from a lower spot on the mountain, so I'd venture to say it's one of those UHF things. Have you tried physically relocating the antenna by a few inches? At college, I live roughly 5 miles from 1000 kW WVIR-DT, and if the indoor antenna isn't placed just right, it drops out just like any other station. UHF is just finicky like that.

And if it did, would that be a bad thing?

There are public safety concerns that make free TV necessary. As far as I'm concerned, that is the argument for it. One should not have to pay a fee just to be safe.

I do not like WSDs one bit.

- Trip

There are public safety concerns that make free TV necessary. As far as I'm concerned, that is the argument for it. One should not have to pay a fee just to be safe.

"Free TV" isn't free. You have to buy a set, or these days, at least a converter box.

It's true that whitespace Internet delivered as a mesh would transfer some level of cost -- the expense of your own node -- to the user, but I don't think that it would be much more than what one would spend on a digital television set. And over your whitespace node, you can talk back. Don't try to do that over a TV of any vintage.

I do not like WSDs one bit.

The FCC engineering staff is ready to green-light the concept. Not that they are total geniuses :-) but that's a strong vote in favor. I'm ready to let market forces (operating at a high level of transparency, unlike our dubious financial system) go to work on this.


Jim McCauley

"Free TV" isn't free. You have to buy a set, or these days, at least a converter box.

It's true that whitespace Internet delivered as a mesh would transfer some level of cost -- the expense of your own node -- to the user, but I don't think that it would be much more than what one would spend on a digital television set. And over your whitespace node, you can talk back. Don't try to do that over a TV of any vintage.

Mesh networks in this form are a bad idea. If we had a massive mesh network, first of all there's no way to get it out to isolated areas without some kind of backhaul to those people.

Second of all, when everyone's traffic is flowing through countless nodes, your latency goes up and performance goes down. Let's say the WSDs deliver 40 Mbps, which is probably a high figure. If you and 100 people are trying to communicate across the mesh, the nodes in the middle get swamped with traffic and speed plummets. The mesh also assumes there's an even distribution of nodes, which there clearly cannot be, so there'll be some bottleneck somewhere where all 100 people are trying to go through a single node, thus dropping that 40 Mbps down to 0.4 Mbps, not counting overhead.

For a true mesh to work, every node has to be connected to every other, or it's not going to work. On top of that, we see how well unlicensed devices get along in both 2.4 GHz (wifi) and 900 MHz (you should have seen the wars over the wireless links here), WSDs will all end up competing with each other and the net result will be a bunch of useless interference which will result in WSDs being about as useful as wireless routers, which already operate on two bands.

And then the FCC keeps talking about high power for "base stations" which doesn't jive with the idea of a mesh. If it's a mesh, why need "base stations" on towers at power levels so much higher than consumer devices?

The FCC engineering staff is ready to green-light the concept. Not that they are total geniuses :-) but that's a strong vote in favor. I'm ready to let market forces (operating at a high level of transparency, unlike our dubious financial system) go to work on this.


Jim McCauley

What? If you read the report, you find that the devices not only failed the wireless mic test horribly (one device detected no available channels, the other ignored mics' existence), but actually managed to interfere with cable, which could only be resolved by replacing ALL the coax in the test facility with "laboratory grade" cabling. And that doesn't take into account low-quality TVs, amps, etc that can let that interference in on top of low-grade cabling.

The OET report makes strong arguments against WSDs (though the devices did, finally, detect the TV signals properly), but Kevin Martin is picking his data to make it look good for him. The report is not as straight-forward as a lot of people are making it out to be.

- Trip

And if it did, would that be a bad thing?

Very bad!

I'm counting on HDTV! Right now I'm paying $130+/month for HD on Comcast! It's a ripoff. I hope to switch to OTA HD when I can get my HTPC working. The HD quality on cable and satellite is inferior as well. If nothing else, I hope OTA HD will at least bring down the cable and satellite HD rates they are gouging as a duopoly.

And if it did, would that be a bad thing?

I've thought a lot about this, and my reasoning is not yet complete, so please bear with me.

Here's the deal: Cable and satellite penetration is such that only something like 20% of Americans get their televised entertainment from terrestrial broadcast. Cable and satellite providers won't require their viewers to to buy new sets, and the value proposition of HD is questionable, at least at this point.

OTA viewers will probably depend in large part on coupon-eligible set top boxes (CECBs) for reception for some time (I know I will), so it's looking like the retail market for new sets will be pretty thin, especially with a recession on. So what's the motivation for buying a digital set at all? Many viewers may be so pleased by the picture quality out of their CECBs that they will regard a new set as unnecessary for years -- assuming that they can get reception under the new regime.

If reception is spotty, things get squirrely. That population of OTA viewers may shrink dramatically after the February changeover if reception is as problematic as indicated in the recent test, because a lot of them will go to cable or satelite.

If the small population of current viewers begin to desert OTA in earnest, what economic motivation is there for broadcasters to spend on broadcasting? They might be motivated to maintain a broadcast presence only to oblige cable and satellite vendors to keep them on due to the must-carry rule. If they could convince those carriers to keep them on cable and satellite without a broadcast presence, and if the FCC allowed it, why should they remain on the air?

The whitespace initiative (http://freetheairwaves.com/) is interesting in this respect. The idea is to deploy unused bandwidth in highband VHF and/or UHF TV for use in constructing a stupendous (and largely ad-hoc) wireless Internet infrastructure, implemented as a mesh network. If broadcast TV has a lower net market value than such a network, why should it be subsidized -- especially when those video services might be delivered with higher economic efficiency over a wireless broadband mesh?

Jim McCauley

I don't even know where to start. Recession is defined as 2 quarters of negative GDP in a row. We haven't even had one yet. I guess I'll leave it at that.

Recession is defined as 2 quarters of negative GDP in a row. We haven't even had one yet.

Maybe we're not technically in a recession, but IMHO, we've never recovered from the recession since 2000. What defines a depression? 5 years of recession? 10 years of recession? I haven't seen evidence of a boom since the last recession, other than low paying, non-salaried, no-benefit service jobs. The number of high paying skilled and technical jobs have decreased and been outsource overseas. I've been laid off twice since 2000 and the second time around was unable to find any work in my field even with a 4 year technical BS and 6 credits from a MS degree and 10 years experience. After a year of unemployment and tired of hearing ridiculous things like "overqualified" even when I applied for entry-level positions, gave up and took a service job requiring no education. I've just recently moved back into an entry-level salaried job in an area related to my education, but I'm still underemployed and making barely more that I did 12 years ago.

As far as I'm concerned, it's worse than '92, and the clueless candidates who don't understand "IT'S THE ECONOMY STUPID!" don't deserve to to elected.

Anyone note the sound or lack of sound problem on Fox31 OTA DTV last night for the game and for Terminator? I watched the game on ESPN, but flipped over to Fox31 just to see how well they were doing with the broadcast. Video was fine, same as ESPN, but I couldn't hear anything even with my Sony A/V receiver cranked up to 50. Same problem when I switched to Fox31 for Terminator. Fortunately, I also have Fox31 DTV via Dish and that broadcast didn't have a sound problem.

I didn't notice any problem on the Broncos game on Fox31 on Comcast 13 last week. I finally got around to watching Terminator on my DVR last night and the video froze up after about 20 minutes and didn't resume until about 5 minutes before the end of the show. After several tries, I was able to get sound with a frozen picture and listened to 35 minutes of Terminator with a still picture. I don't know if it was a problem with my DVR, Comcast, or Fox.

Well, I seem to have stirred up the hornets...

Before I begin, let me make it clear that I have no desire to get into a technological pissing contest. I have the greatest respect for the technical chops of many members of this forum, especially Trip.

The OET report makes strong arguments against WSDs [...]

Let's make sure that we're on the same page. Would this be "FCC/OET 07-TR-1006" issued on 31 July 2008? Or are you talking about FCC/OET 08-TR-1005" issued on 15 October 2008? I've read both of them.

[...] (though the devices did, finally, detect the TV signals properly), but Kevin Martin is picking his data to make it look good for him.

The National Association of Broadcasters may legitimately be accused of the same. Recent editorials in _Broadcast Engineering_ look like the result of "Chinese menu" data selection.

I think that we all need to calm down.

I do agree that more work has to be done on wireless microphone detection, but frankly, I've worked with those things, and they strike me as witlessly inefficient. A single analog mike (especially a cheaper model) may sit in the middle of an entire 6 MHz TV channel, despite the fact that it only takes up 200 kHz! Technology like that deserves no respect.

Wireless mikes also appear to be hopelessly under-engineered from a systems standpoint. They can't even detect mutual interference with one another, except by picking up another mike feed, often during showtime. This happens all the time in venues offering multiple programs in different halls. Like NTSC, this may also be a technology whose time has passed.

Frankly, if wireless mic manufacturers start wailing "But we were here first!" I'll have no sympathy for them. It would be way smarter for them to buy into the whitespace revolution, thus generating sales of newer and more sophisticated devices.


Jim McCauley

The FCC engineering staff is ready to green-light the concept. Not that they are total geniuses :-) but that's a strong vote in favor. I'm ready to let market forces (operating at a high level of transparency, unlike our dubious financial system) go to work on this.


Jim McCauley

Is that what the engineers really believe? Most 'real engineers' detest the politics of technology. The ultimate decision will be based on the lobbying efforts sponsored by those eying financial gains from the White Space devices.

I'm assuming they will be Part 15 devices. They must not create interference and must accept interference from other Part 15 certified devices and, they will operate with a secondary allocation; the primary service 'supposedly' having total rights to the spectrum. So, if the FCC rigorously enforces their operation, I have no problem with them. However, we all know the FCC doesn't possess adequate resources to do that.

For the Megalopolis areas here in the northeast, accommodation of primary services in a repacked spectrum is a challenge in itself. Where will Denver White Space be found?

--- CHAS

Maybe we're not technically in a recession, but IMHO, we've never recovered from the recession since 2000. What defines a depression? 5 years of recession? 10 years of recession? I haven't seen evidence of a boom since the last recession, other than low paying, non-salaried, no-benefit service jobs. The number of high paying skilled and technical jobs have decreased and been outsource overseas. I've been laid off twice since 2000 and the second time around was unable to find any work in my field even with a 4 year technical BS and 6 credits from a MS degree and 10 years experience. After a year of unemployment and tired of hearing ridiculous things like "overqualified" even when I applied for entry-level positions, gave up and took a service job requiring no education. I've just recently moved back into an entry-level salaried job in an area related to my education, but I'm still underemployed and making barely more that I did 12 years ago.

As far as I'm concerned, it's worse than '92, and the clueless candidates who don't understand "IT'S THE ECONOMY STUPID!" don't deserve to to elected.

At the risk of extending this OT discussion, I will say that I feel for your personal employment situation and I decry the trend toward a low paying, other than professional services, service job economy in exchange for higher paying technical positions that have been exported.

OTOH, I believe that the affects of the 2000 recession and the 9/11 economic disruption were long ago overcome and things changed rather than returning to the prior configuration. The biggest change is that one now has to be truly mobile as an economic resource.

Metro-Denver does not have a good base of good paying jobs unless you are in the professions or work for a Government entity, preferably as a contractor. You have to be prepared to move wherever in the country the job is if you want to stay employed in your chosen field at a good salary. I discovered this in early 2006 (after retiring upon the final shutdown of Rocky Flats) and chose to make semi-retirement permanent rather than force my wife to move to some undesirable location.

Now we are entering an economic downturn, which is unlike anything we've endured for over a quarter of century. How it will play out is any body's guess at this point. The stock market has always been a leading indicator, so only time will tell what the collapse of the "housing bubble" (failure of the bigger fool market theory; who really believed that housing prices would keep rising at many times the rate of inflation) will do to employment opportunities outside the housing and financial sectors.

But, so far the affects of this downturn aren't anywhere near what we endured in 1982, a time I call the Second Great Depression. Double-digit unemployment for all (I was a multi-degreed technical professional out-of-work and about half of my friends lost their jobs), high interest rates, followed shortly by a housing price collapse. I think I'll know how bad this downturn is when I see people canceling their cable and satellite TV and getting back to one phone per household. Can things really be all that bad when practically everyone you see in WalMart is on a cell phone that costs an average of over $40/month per subscription?

Anyway, good luck in your career, hope things work out for you.

Maybe we're not technically in a recession, but IMHO, we've never recovered from the recession since 2000.

The key there being IMHO.

As mentioned above, we've yet to have a single quarter of negative GDP, let alone two.

There's no doubt however the economy has changed as as the nature of it, and for better or worse it's virtually certain that no matter which candidate wins next week, the primary source of job growth will be government spending.

As far as whitespace goes, I think it's a moronic idea. The FCC is promising everything to everyone despite the fact that none of the equipment has even been designed yet, there may be little reason for companies to design it, and even then it has to be of use.

The FCC says "broadband" but every municipal broadband system has all but collapsed or is hemorrhaging money, and there's certainly no reason why the availability of new spectrum should bring broadband prices down.

Meanwhile, existing frequency users like wireless mics are stomped on with no regard to interference - something the FCC does quite often with abandon.

Well, I seem to have stirred up the hornets...

Before I begin, let me make it clear that I have no desire to get into a technological pissing contest. I have the greatest respect for the technical chops of many members of this forum, especially Trip.

Of course, and I respect you as I've seen your own messages on this forum.

Let's make sure that we're on the same page. Would this be "FCC/OET 07-TR-1006" issued on 31 July 2008? Or are you talking about FCC/OET 08-TR-1005" issued on 15 October 2008? I've read both of them.

I skimmed over the newer one, and read in depth the key sections of it.

The National Association of Broadcasters may legitimately be accused of the same. Recent editorials in _Broadcast Engineering_ look like the result of "Chinese menu" data selection.

I think that we all need to calm down.

I do agree that more work has to be done on wireless microphone detection, but frankly, I've worked with those things, and they strike me as witlessly inefficient. A single analog mike (especially a cheaper model) may sit in the middle of an entire 6 MHz TV channel, despite the fact that it only takes up 200 kHz! Technology like that deserves no respect.

Wireless mikes also appear to be hopelessly under-engineered from a systems standpoint. They can't even detect mutual interference with one another, except by picking up another mike feed, often during showtime. This happens all the time in venues offering multiple programs in different halls. Like NTSC, this may also be a technology whose time has passed.

Frankly, if wireless mic manufacturers start wailing "But we were here first!" I'll have no sympathy for them. It would be way smarter for them to buy into the whitespace revolution, thus generating sales of newer and more sophisticated devices.


Jim McCauley

The bottom line, in my opinion, is that promises of "approve it and we'll fix it later" should not be trusted. If the devices do not work now as a proof of concept, then they can't be trusted to work later. I'd fully expect the first devices they roll out to stomp on anything that's not a local TV station.

If the FCC wants to wait for successful tests and try again, great. But in its current state of being completely unable to detect mics, it should definitely not be allowed.

I still don't like it, but it'd resolve my biggest concern.

I wish I had more time to be more detailed, but I've been swamped with schoolwork this week and have had little time to do much else.

- Trip

Back On Topic...there definitely is something wrong with KMGH7 analog lately. Sunday evening, I was in the basement storing away boxes from components of the PC I just built, and I turned on the old 20" analog TV with rabbit ears antenna, and I could get every channel fairly clearly except channel 7, which was unviewable due to the snow/static/ghosts. I wonder if they've moved their analog equipment from Lookout Mtn. back to the roof of their building on Speer & Lincoln using a coat hanger for an antenna? :rolleyes:

As noted by others on several other threads, the "white space" technical discussion belongs here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...1048951&page=3

As for the subjective discussion, to me it just seems like an effort by some technophiles and some folks looking for the next "fast buck" to implement new technology because we can without asking the most important question of "should we". If you haven't noticed the economic evolution of the past decade is to make everything a paid for service at the expense of anything supported by other financial means or that is a free capability to consumers. Notice how you can't record the new television standard, HDTV, but you can pay a company that you already pay for HDTV to let you record the HDTV program. IMHO, consumers have been the big losers in this country's digital revolution and maybe the emerging hard economic times will wake folks up to that fact.

End of rant!

well I don't completely agree that there are no products that can record HDTV. check this thread http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=537711 .

This device will record HDTV and there are a number of computer devices that will allow this on PC's as well.

well I don't completely agree that there are no products that can record HDTV. check this thread http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=537711 .

This device will record HDTV and there are a number of computer devices that will allow this on PC's as well.

Those Sony DVR's are discontinued (you can still find them on Ebay). I'm not aware of any currently shipping consumer DVR that supports OTA HD recording and that can be purchased without having a satellite TV or cable subscription. The Echostar TR50 (or DTVpal DVR), which will be such a product, should be available in the future (perhaps near future if Echostar is to be believed).

Those Sony DVR's are discontinued (you can still find them on Ebay). I'm not aware of any currently shipping consumer DVR that supports OTA HD recording and that can be purchased without having a satellite TV or cable subscription.

TiVo HD or TiVo HD XL.

I use an older TiVo S3 to record OTA ATSC HD every day.

You might investigate a Philips DVDR3576H/37. It records of the air to its hard disk or DVD.

--- CHAS

I noticed that KZCO-SD (Aztec) is now being received as 7-27.

well I don't completely agree that there are no products that can record HDTV. check this thread http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=537711 .

Yeah, I know about the Sony, but it is years old already without update and, TTBOMK no longer manufactured. All its competitors died silently over the past few years. Just doesn't seem to be a market for these, which is a shame. I was looking at the LG version of these a few years ago, but they were problematic and LG dropped the effort. Wish some bold CEM would market an up-to-date, debugged, version of these for a price point under $500. I'd buy it.

This device will record HDTV and there are a number of computer devices that will allow this on PC's as well.

The modified PC route is hardly consumer-friendly. If I have to go through all that just to record an episode of "24", I'll just settle for 480i.

TiVo HD or TiVo HD XL.

I use an older TiVo S3 to record OTA ATSC HD every day.

Isn't TiVo a subscription service?

You might investigate a Philips DVDR3576H/37. It records of the air to its hard disk or DVD.

--- CHAS

But it records in 480i even if it records the widescreen format.

Back On Topic...there definitely is something wrong with KMGH7 analog lately. Sunday evening, I was in the basement storing away boxes from components of the PC I just built, and I turned on the old 20" analog TV with rabbit ears antenna, and I could get every channel fairly clearly except channel 7, which was unviewable due to the snow/static/ghosts. I wonder if they've moved their analog equipment from Lookout Mtn. back to the roof of their building on Speer & Lincoln using a coat hanger for an antenna? :rolleyes:

Sorry I didn't get to check on analog KMGH until last night. Well, last night analog KMGH PQ and sound were the best I've seen in quite some time. Maybe Sunday night they were just having technical difficulties, which have since been corrected.

BTW, I get a stunningly sharp picture on analog KPXC, Channel 59. I'm sure going to miss them after transition since I can't receive their DTV broadcast.

I'm sure going to miss them after transition since I can't receive their DTV broadcast.Which of their infomercials are you going to miss the most?

I noticed that KZCO-SD (Aztec) is now being received as 7-27.

Yeah, a couple of weeks ago my 7-1 HD reception went to pot, and I've been wondering why. I guess the addition of 7-27 explains it. I hope they increase their signal strength or something because I now get a lot of breakups on ABC where I hadn't until recently.

which of their infomercials are you going to miss the most?

lol!

I noticed that KZCO-SD (Aztec) is now being received as 7-27.

Yes, I just noticed this too. This subchannel probably won't make the transition when KMGH moves to their post transition frequency, since KZCO-LD can then start operating on it's assigned frequency (Channel 17).
I wonder if the subchannel number of 27 is a mistake. KZCO's major channel number should be 27, and there is no reason that KMGH could not set the major channel to 27 now. That would provide a more seamless transition for KZCO.

Note, KQCK also returned last night, but they are still sending garbage that just about any tuner/converter box will not be able to do anything with.

Yeah, a couple of weeks ago my 7-1 HD reception went to pot, and I've been wondering why. I guess the addition of 7-27 explains it. I hope they increase their signal strength or something because I now get a lot of breakups on ABC where I hadn't until recently.

Well that depends on how you define "breakup". Can you describe what you mean by "breakup" in a little more detail?

Adding a subchannel like KMGH has done will not affect your ability to receive their signal in any way. So, if your breakups are due to bad reception then the cause is not the addition of the KZCO subchannel. These type of breakups will result in either a total loss of signal or major random digital artifacts and/or dropping of the audio.

However, in order to add this subchannel KMGH had to reduce the bandwidth allocated to their primary subchannel. Depending on the content this will decrease the quality of the program, potentially leading to more digital artifacts, especially when the video contains fast moving objects. The type of digital artifacts caused by reduced bandwidth are typically much different than the ones that are caused by transmission errors related to bad reception. These type of artifacts usually result in a blurry or blocky appearance, usually confined to areas of fast movement. If this is the type of breakup you are seeing then the addition of the new KZCO subchannel is the cause. In that case, increasing signal strength will not help the problem. Since this subchannel will almost certainly go away in February, hopefully KMGH will restore the bandwidth allocated to their primary programming, rather than replace the KZCO subchannel with something else.

Considering the fact that the subchannel was just added recently, and you were having reception problems for a couple of weeks, the addition of the KZCO subchannel is not likely to be the cause of the problem you are seeing, unless KMGH reduced the bandwidth of their primary channel a couple of weeks ago in order to carve out some room for the new subchannel that was just added.

Well that depends on how you define "breakup". Can you describe what you mean by "breakup" in a little more detail?

Basically, I've been experiencing all of the symptoms that you mentioned. The picture frequently gets blurry or blocky in random areas of the screen, the audio sometimes drops in and out like a bad cell phone call, and occasionally, the signal drops out completely.

I've been consistently receiving a good picture and signal from KMGH-DT since last February, that is, until a couple of weeks ago. As you mentioned, my theory is that they may have started making changes within the past couple of weeks to bring the new subchannel online.

Unfortunately, I'm limited to an indoor antenna since I live in an apartment without a patio or balcony, so I'm much more affected by changes in signal quality and/or strength than someone with an outdoor antenna.

In any case, I hope you are correct in your assumption that they will drop the subchannel after the transition. For now, it's just nice to have a possible explanation for my recent drop in reception.

Basically, I've been experiencing all of the symptoms that you mentioned. The picture frequently gets blurry or blocky in random areas of the screen, the audio sometimes drops in and out like a bad cell phone call, and occasionally, the signal drops out completely.


The reduced bandwidth for the primary subchannel should only lead to blurry or blocky areas surrounding fast movement, not random areas of the screen. Audio drop outs and total signal drop outs are not something that adding a subchannel would cause. So I believe your problems are due to reception issues, and they have nothing to do with the new subchannel.

What I don't know is if KMGH-DT has changed anything that caused your problem or whether or not the problem is on your end. Note that when KMGH moves their digital transmission to channel 7 your reception is very likely to change. Whether or not it will be better or worse is the question, and that will partly depend on whether or not your antenna is designed to receive high VHF stations.

Isn't TiVo a subscription service?

Yes, for its programming guide.

It's requires neither satellite nor cable which was the original statement.

Yes, for its programming guide.

It's requires neither satellite nor cable which was the original statement.
And even MythTV needs a subscription program guide, albeit only $20 per year.

Some of you may be aware that KCDO (in Sterling, CO) applied to move their antenna to the Fort Morgan area and increase their power so that they could still reach Sterling, but also reach the Denver area. They make the argument that they have too small an audience to be profitable, so they need this change in order to stay in business.

Anyway, the FCC has not responded (not surprising, considering their current backlog), so KCDO has now filed a STA application. They say that they are past the time where they could build the requested facility by Feb 17, 2009, so they need to build a temporary facility in the meantime in order to stay on the air post transition. They project that this temporary facility will only cover 27.1% of the population covered by their analog signal.

Anyway, the reason for this post is that I found their argument for allowing this low level of coverage sad, but also somewhat amusing:

As described in the attached engineering exhibit, the STA Facility would serve 27.1% of the population currently served by the KCDO analog signal or a facility constructed to meet the Appendix B parameters. However, as presented in great detail in support of its application for the Proposed Facility, KCDO has been unable to establish that it has any statistically meaningful, measurable number of viewers. Nielsen Media Research lists no viewers of the station in its ratings. CTTC commissioned a telephone survey of four Colorado counties within KCDO's current coverage area which found only six persons who claimed to watch the station, four of whom reported watching programs that KCDO does not broadcast.

Today I'm receiving the RTN network from Denver on channel 11-1. I didn't do a scan, I just entered 11 to see if anything was there.
T.

... Nielsen Media Research lists no viewers of the station in its ratings. CTTC commissioned a telephone survey of four Colorado counties within KCDO's current coverage area which found only six persons who claimed to watch the station, four of whom reported watching programs that KCDO does not broadcast.

Now that's just painful to read, so just imagine how agonizing it was for the owners to admit that in a public filing! Been wondering about channel 23 since we're in their fringe contour post-transition. Thanks for the heads up.

Today I'm receiving the RTN network from Denver on channel 11-1. I didn't do a scan, I just entered 11 to see if anything was there.
T.

Actually, it's from Fort Collins. KQCK came back on the air two nights ago, although when they first appeared their stream was badly formatted with absolutely no PSIP. They've now added some minimal PSIP, so things are a little better, i.e. all tuners should be able to get them now. They have only one subchannel, and their PSIP says there are three audio channels to go along with the video (all english), but actually there is only one audio stream present. Their TSID is set to 1. I wonder if they will add a second subchannel like before.

But for now I would say that KQCK is "officially" back on the air.

Is KCDO someones hobby project?

--- CHAS

Hi. I just got my first HDTV this week and have a OTA antenna installed outside (omnidirectional). I get great signals from most channels except Fox. Fox signal is so low that it doesn't lock in half the time. I'm not sure why this is happening. Is the Fox signal transmitted at a lower power than for example ABC, NBC, and CBS? I'm thinking of changing my antenna to a directional antenna but wanted to check first to see if anyone could explain why Fox has a much lower signal strength. Many thanks.

Hi. I just got my first HDTV this week and have a OTA antenna installed outside (omnidirectional). I get great signals from most channels except Fox. Fox signal is so low that it doesn't lock in half the time. I'm not sure why this is happening. Is the Fox signal transmitted at a lower power than for example ABC, NBC, and CBS? I'm thinking of changing my antenna to a directional antenna but wanted to check first to see if anyone could explain why Fox has a much lower signal strength. Many thanks.

Fox31 is actually one of the higher power DTV stations in our area, so their power isn't the problem. I suspect you have a location problem in that something is blocking the direct signal from Fox31's broadcast tower.

Have you looked at your expected reception on TVFool? Also, a couple of guys frequenting this thread can do terrain elevation plots from your location if you supply the Lat/Long for your house.

One other thing, sometimes it is merely a matter of inches. Have you tried moving your antenna a foot or so left, right, front, back? Have you tried rotating your omni antenna? Even the omnis have a "sweet spot" where gain is highest.

Finally, omni-directional antennas usually aren't the best performers for your location (i.e., almost all of your stations are in the same general direction from you). A directional antenna will likely give you better performance in general.

Sorry I didn't get to check on analog KMGH until last night. Well, last night analog KMGH PQ and sound were the best I've seen in quite some time. Maybe Sunday night they were just having technical difficulties, which have since been corrected.

Well KMGH7 analog OTA is completely snow and faint ghosting from my basement TV which can get all other channels with rabbit ears remarkably well considering the basement is 1/3 below ground. My two 2nd floor TVs receive KMGH7 through analog cable with lots of white dashed horizontal lines of static and vertical scanning artifacts, so I figure it's an upstream problem. My digital HD-DVR Comcast box displays channel 652 KMGH-DT fine as well as channel 7 (analog via digital cable, I assume). Maybe KMGH has transferred some of their power amplifiers from their analog antennas to their digital amplifiers? I don't think the new subchannel should affect analog at all.

I'm starting to be able to pick up KRMA from CU again. I guess it's the time of year when the leaves are falling. I've never been able to figure out that seasonal phenomenon. It is showing up as 24-3 and 24-4 on my panny plasma. I think I like the fact that it doesn't remap to 6-1 and 6-2, because then I can compare to 18-1's weaker signal which does map to 6-1. I wonder what would happen if I did a rescan, but am afraid to mess things up. The good thing is that I am able to see 24-3 with my myhd pc at night now(35% just enough for a lock), gonna try to record Nova tomorrow. Myhd maps 24 to 6-1. They must be using the same PSIP for 18-1

Basically, I've been experiencing all of the symptoms that you mentioned. The picture frequently gets blurry or blocky in random areas of the screen, the audio sometimes drops in and out like a bad cell phone call, and occasionally, the signal drops out completely.

I've been consistently receiving a good picture and signal from KMGH-DT since last February, that is, until a couple of weeks ago. As you mentioned, my theory is that they may have started making changes within the past couple of weeks to bring the new subchannel online.

Unfortunately, I'm limited to an indoor antenna since I live in an apartment without a patio or balcony, so I'm much more affected by changes in signal quality and/or strength than someone with an outdoor antenna.

In any case, I hope you are correct in your assumption that they will drop the subchannel after the transition. For now, it's just nice to have a possible explanation for my recent drop in reception.

FWIW, I've noticed the same things with KMGH. I live in an apartment in Capitol Hill with indoor rabbit ears. I was able to get a good signal from KMGH up until sometime this summer, now I can barely get enough to signal to keep a lock on the channel.

The rest of channels come in just fine, and previously KMGH was at the same level as the others. This is killing my college football addiction, lol!

Fox31 is actually one of the higher power DTV stations in our area, so their power isn't the problem. I suspect you have a location problem in that something is blocking the direct signal from Fox31's broadcast tower.

Have you looked at your expected reception on TVFool? Also, a couple of guys frequenting this thread can do terrain elevation plots from your location if you supply the Lat/Long for your house.

One other thing, sometimes it is merely a matter of inches. Have you tried moving your antenna a foot or so left, right, front, back? Have you tried rotating your omni antenna? Even the omnis have a "sweet spot" where gain is highest.

Finally, omni-directional antennas usually aren't the best performers for your location (i.e., almost all of your stations are in the same general direction from you). A directional antenna will likely give you better performance in general.

Good advice

Actually, it's from Fort Collins. KQCK came back on the air two nights ago, although when they first appeared their stream was badly formatted with absolutely no PSIP. They've now added some minimal PSIP, so things are a little better, i.e. all tuners should be able to get them now.

As before, I can demodulate it on my Zenith DTT900 CECB and my ATI HDTV Wonder tuner card. No such luck with my other CECB, an RCA DTA800B.


Jim McCauley

My ATI HDTV Wonder computer tuner card lists a digital channel 1 with the ID tag "RMT-DT4" on the MythTV program guide. It does not appear when I roll through the channels during tuning. Any idea what this is?

It seemed to show up at the same time as KZCO-DT (7-27).


Jim McCauley

As before, I can demodulate it on my Zenith DTT900 CECB and my ATI HDTV Wonder tuner card. No such luck with my other CECB, an RCA DTA800B.


Interesting. Have you done a full rescan, or did you just try to add the channel? Have you gotten KRMT all along (on the RCA CECB) or only when they fixed their PSIP about a month ago?

My guess is that your RCA box requires a TVCT table, which is the PSIP data that contains the display channel number. Most boxes just use the RF channel number when it can't find a TVCT. KQCK is not currently sending a TVCT. KRMT only started sending a TVCT table in early October.

My ATI HDTV Wonder computer tuner card lists a digital channel 1 with the ID tag "RMT-DT4" on the MythTV program guide. It does not appear when I roll through the channels during tuning. Any idea what this is?

It seemed to show up at the same time as KZCO-DT (7-27).
Jim McCauley

I can't imagine that the new KZCO subchannel would have caused it. Did you do a rescan to pick up the KZCO subchannel? When was the last time you did a full rescan? My DTVPal did some funky things when KRMT changed their TSID. Seeing a different TSID on the same RF channel it assumed that I was pulling in a different station, so it assigned it to a different display channel (Channel 70) to resolve the conflict. So that is one possibility. A full reset/rescan my cause it to go away, but that may be too painful an operation just to satisfy curiosity.

One of the software DVR programs I have used assigned channels for any audio only channels it found. KRMA has an audio only channel, but I'm fairly certain that you are not currently able to get KRMA. Is it possible that you get it once in a while when conditions are just right?

Is there anyway of getting MythTV to show you the underlying physical mapping for the channel?

Is there anyway of getting MythTV to show you the underlying physical mapping for the channel?This is pretty easy if you have mythweb enabled. Just Click the Tools icon at the top of the page, then the TV button on the right, and finally the Channel Info tab. Look for the "freq id" column.

Fox31 is actually one of the higher power DTV stations in our area, so their power isn't the problem. I suspect you have a location problem in that something is blocking the direct signal from Fox31's broadcast tower.

Have you looked at your expected reception on TVFool? Also, a couple of guys frequenting this thread can do terrain elevation plots from your location if you supply the Lat/Long for your house.

One other thing, sometimes it is merely a matter of inches. Have you tried moving your antenna a foot or so left, right, front, back? Have you tried rotating your omni antenna? Even the omnis have a "sweet spot" where gain is highest.

Finally, omni-directional antennas usually aren't the best performers for your location (i.e., almost all of your stations are in the same general direction from you). A directional antenna will likely give you better performance in general.

Thanks for the advice. I discovered onmi wasn't going to work for me. I found a website that showed how to make a directional UHF anenna for mounting in attic using just spare parts lying around in my shop. I built it watching the UT-TT game last night and installed it afterwards. I now get 90+ signal strength on all channels and even pick up a few other channels that the omni wasn't picking up.

Isn't TiVo a subscription service?
That's one option. There are also Lifetime Payment option where you pay about $300 upfront per TiVo box and don't have to pay subscription fees as long at that box is working.

Of course, after you spend $300 on a "lifetime" subscription, the box will inevitably break 6 months later.

Of course, after you spend $300 on a "lifetime" subscription, the box will inevitably break 6 months later.

There are repair options, you know.

In most cases you'll still come out ahead.

Interesting. Have you done a full rescan, or did you just try to add the channel? Have you gotten KRMT all along (on the RCA CECB) or only when they fixed their PSIP about a month ago?

I keep a careful log (dates, times, estimated signal strengths) every time I do a rescan, or if a channel "just shows up" -- the Zenith displays new subchannels, even without a rescan. Here is a behavioral summary:

KQCK-DT:
-The Zenith DTT900 has always demodulated it, no matter how screwed up its metadata has been.
- The RCA DTA800B has _never_ demodulated it.
- The ATI HDTV Wonder has always demodulated it, but it has usually identified it as "11#0." When the second subchannel was available, it was identified as "11#1."

KRMT-DT:
- The Zenith DTT900 could not demodulate it reliably until the recent change in the metadata, even when the signal level was high.
- Same for the RCA DAT800B.
- The ATI HDTV Wonder (and the MythTV software) picked up 16 channel indicators from the hosed metadata but never demodulated video or sound. It's been solid in video, sound and station ID since the metadata reorganization.

Is there anyway of getting MythTV to show you the underlying physical mapping for the channel?

I'll install MythWeb and tell you what I see.


Jim McCauley

I lost KBDI-DT in Fort Collins at about 2:30 PM today. Is anyone else still getting it?

I lost KBDI-DT in Fort Collins at about 2:30 PM today. Is anyone else still getting it?
Dead for me too. My HDHomeRun is showing about 18% signal strength this evening; usually it report 45-50%, which is just barely enough for me to lock.

Hi. Just got my first HDTV. I pick up channel 18-5, but nothing displays. What is this channel? Thanks.

Hi. Just got my first HDTV. I pick up channel 18-5, but nothing displays. What is this channel? Thanks.

Do you get sound? 18-5 is the Audio Information Network of Colorado, which is a reading service that has been broadcast for years via SAP on KRMA's analog service.

This service isn't properly configured in the PSIP data, so various tuners/converter boxes will handle it differently (Most won't even show it). KRMA would have to change the audio encoding from MPEG-2 to AC-3 before it could get the other PSIP parameters right, since the ATSC standard only supports AC-3 audio.

Most tuners/converter boxes that do support this audio only channel will display it as either channel 18-1 or 18-5.

I found a website that showed how to make a directional UHF anenna for mounting in attic using just spare parts lying around in my shop. I built it watching the UT-TT game last night and installed it afterwards. I now get 90+ signal strength on all channels and even pick up a few other channels that the omni wasn't picking up.

Hey MacGyver, I'd like to see a picture of that!

KQCK-DT:
-The Zenith DTT900 has always demodulated it, no matter how screwed up its metadata has been.
- The RCA DTA800B has _never_ demodulated it.

KRMT-DT:
- The Zenith DTT900 could not demodulate it reliably until the recent change in the metadata, even when the signal level was high.
- Same for the RCA DAT800B.


My guess is that the RCA DTA800B won't even look at a stream that does not contain a TVCT table (that's the table that contains the mapping from program numbers to display channel).

As far as why the Zenith DTT900 had troubles with KRMT before it fixed its PSIP data, it probably has something to do with the fact that KQCK's signal is missing some PSIP tables, but the tables they do provide are mostly correct. Before KRMT fixed things their PSIP was truly hideous, including a variety of non standard ATSC data, some it from the DVB standard.

You mentioned that your Zenith DTT900 was always able to decode KQCK. Are you including the time they came up for a few days in early October, or the period from 10/28 to sometime on 10/30 when they finally added minimal PSIP? During those times KQCK had absolutely no PSIP data. I wasn't sure how any tuner/box could display anything, but somehow my DTVpal was able to do it the first time, but not the second. My Zenith DTT900 was not able to decode it either of those two times.

My new theory is that the reason that the DTVpal was able to decode it the first time (early October) was that it was using cached information from the previous time it was up normally, and that since then it had been unplugged. I don't think any box could reasonably decode that stream without any PSIP data at all. My guess is that if your Zenith box actually did so (and mine could not) then it also was using cached information.

I lost KBDI-DT in Fort Collins at about 2:30 PM today. Is anyone else still getting it?

Tuesday 7:30 am:

In Longmont, we have also lost 12-1, 12-2, 12-3 DTV.

We can still receive analog 12.

I phoned (303) 296-1212 and left a message. They are open M-F 9-5.
(800)727-8812

Are you including the time [KQCK-DT] they came up for a few days in early October, or the period from 10/28 to sometime on 10/30 when they finally added minimal PSIP?

My log shows no attempted rescans during 2-9 October; I was traveling at the time.

My rescan log for 29 October shows no KQCK-DT acquisition on any of my equipment.


Jim McCauley

Time for a good laugh...

DTV is easy! (http://www.hulu.com/watch/36608/talkshow-with-spike-feresten-cable-psa#s-p1-st-i1)

Tuesday 7:30 am:

In Longmont, we have also lost 12-1, 12-2, 12-3 DTV.

We can still receive analog 12.

I phoned (303) 296-1212 and left a message. They are open M-F 9-5.
(800)727-8812

I emailed via their website. Here is their response:

Thanks for your email. Our digital transmitter failed yesterday and
our engineers are working with the vendor to get it back up and
running as soon as possible.



KBDI Technical Services

Time for a good laugh...

DTV is easy! (http://www.hulu.com/watch/36608/talkshow-with-spike-feresten-cable-psa#s-p1-st-i1)

Unfortunately, there is more reality in that video than the authorities would be willing to admit. The subject character in the video is exactly the kind of consumer that will be dumbfounded on 2/18/09, when they can't watch their TV. Sad.

Our digital transmitter failed yesterday and
our engineers are working with the vendor to get it back up and
running as soon as possible.
Hope it doesn't cost them too much to fix, since they only need it for another 100 days or so.

Hope it doesn't cost them too much to fix, since they only need it for another 100 days or so.

Hooray! they fixed it!

We noticed 7.1 KMGH-DT is having intermittent signal interruptions last night and this morning?

7.1 was fine for me last night during election returns--from about 7 pm to 11:30 pm. I don't recall any interruptions.

-Sarah

My Vizio TV shows the time to be an hour fast when tuned to 7.1 KMGH-DT. When the Vizio displays the Program schedule for KMGH, the programs are also listed an hour "Fast?". What I mean by that is that the schedule says the 11AM news will start at noon. Since the time detected is also an hour fast, that means that when it is really 11:15AM, the Vizio, when tuned to KMGH-DT, reports that it is 12:15PM, and it does indicate that the current program is the 11AM News. My Philips TV does not display the time. It just shows the program it believes is currently on. That TV is listing the current program on KMGH-DT.

I don't have anything that can read the actual time reported in the PSIP, which should be in UTC(Coordinated Universal Time) which I believe matches GMT and would be 8 hours ahead of MST. I suspect that that value is correct.

I presume the problem is with the Daylight Savings Time Control. The requirements for that are specified in ATSC A/65C Program and System Information Protocol, Annex A 2 January 2006:

Table A1 Structure of Daylight Savings Time Control
Syntax No. of Bits Format
daylight_savings() {
DS_status 1 bslbf
reserved 2 ‘11’
DS_day_of_month 5 uimsbf
DS_hour 8 uimsbf
}
DS_status — This bit indicate the status of daylight savings.
DS_status = ‘0’: Not in daylight savings time.
DS_status = ‘1’: In daylight savings time.
DS_day_of_month — This 5-bit unsigned integer field indicates the local day of the month on which the transition into or out of daylight savings time is to occur (1–31).
DS_hour — This 8-bit unsigned integer field indicates the local hour at which the transition into or out of daylight savings time is to occur (0–18). This usually occurs at 2 a.m. in the U.S.

Table A2 Basic Use of Daylight Savings Fields Through the Year
After all time zones (within the span of the network) have shifted out of daylight savings time, the DS_status bit takes the value 0, indicating that daylight savings time is off. The DS_day_of_month field and the DS_hour field take the value 0. (In the U.S., this transition has to occur no later than 7 p.m. Pacific Time on the day day_out).
Conditions‘0’ 0 0


I suspect the Conditions ‘1’ 02 02 is still being reported instead of the required Conditions‘0’ 0 0.

Does anyone have equipment to read what KMGH-DT is sending?

I don't know exactly what KMGH is sending out, but my Vizio shows the correct time for them. Did you remember to turn off DST on your Vizio? My Zinwell ZAT-970A still shows them 1 hour ahead while most other stations are correct with the exception of KPXC which was about 40 minutes fast when I checked.

I don't have anything that can read the actual time reported in the PSIP, which should be in UTC(Coordinated Universal Time) which I believe matches GMT and would be 8 hours ahead of MST. I suspect that that value is correct.


Actually PSIP time is based on GPS time, which ignores leap seconds that occured after Jan 1, 1980. However, the PSIP data is also supposed to include the leap second correction data so that the tuners/boxes can compute the correct local time (assuming you have set your timezone correctly). Not all stations are correctly reporting this offset (see below).


I suspect the Conditions ‘1’ 02 02 is still being reported instead of the required Conditions‘0’ 0 0.

Does anyone have equipment to read what KMGH-DT is sending?

I have the "equipment". Just about anyone with an ATSC capable card in their PC or an HDHomeRun on their LAN (that is what I have) can look at PSIP information with TSReader Lite (which is free for non commercial use).

KMGH did clear DS_Day_of_Month and DS_Hour to zero. but they still have their DS_Status set to 1.

KFCT in Fort Collins also still has DS_Status set to 1. They still have DS_Day_of_Month and DS_Hour set to 2 (which will cause boxes to switch off of DST on Dec 2 for the day, and then go back the following day if they don't fix the problem).

To be complete, as far as PSIP time parameters go, KRMT and KPXC have the correct values for DS_Status, DS_Day_of_Month and DS_Hour, but they have the wrong value for the leap second offset. That value should be 14 until the next leap second occurs. Currently KRMT has it set to 13 and KPXC has it set to 0.

KPXC seems to have a problem with clock sync. Sometimes their time error is at 0 for long periods of time, indicating they have synced their PSIP time to an atomic source. But then every once in a while their error starts freewheeling, changing at a fairly high rate (about 2 minutes per day), indicating that whatever method they use to sync their time seems to break down every once in a while (perhaps a cable gets unplugged, or they are using NTP and they lose contact with their NTP master).

I don't know exactly what KMGH is sending out, but my Vizio shows the correct time for them. Did you remember to turn off DST on your Vizio? My Zinwell ZAT-970A still shows them 1 hour ahead while most other stations are correct with the exception of KPXC which was about 40 minutes fast when I checked.

You shouldn't have to manually set/clear DST unless your tuner or converter box does not properly support the PSIP time information. The PSIP time information tells the tuners/converter boxes when to change. Of course, this depends on the stations doing the right thing, which obviously all of them are not.

The biggest weakness I see with the current way that tuners/converter boxes are handling time is that they have multiple time sources to choose from (i.e. each station that it can receive). It would be nice to be able to set which station you trust to provide reliable time. I guess the other option would be for the boxes to go with "majority rule", i.e. assume that the value that appears most often (across all available stations) for each time parameter is the correct value. For the actual time it could look for a group of times that are close to each other and average them, and ignore times that seem very different from the others.

We noticed 7.1 KMGH-DT is having intermittent signal interruptions last night and this morning?

The interruptions were brief (several seconds). Here is their response:

Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2008 18:50:14 -0500
From: "Craddock, Thomas" <Rick_Craddock@kmgh.com>
Cc: "PUBLIC, KMGH" <kmghpublic@kmgh.com>
Subject: RE: TheDenverChannel Feedback

Thanks for your comments. KMGH is not experiencing any transmission
issues. If you have details about your setup, I would be glad to offer
suggestions for best reception.

Rick Craddock
Director of Engineering
Denver's 7, KMGH - TV/DT

Yeah, I watched KMGH all night last night and never experienced any dropouts.

I noticed two very short (1-2 second max) breaks on Channel 7's (7.1) ABC Election Coverage. Phillips DVR receives the digital signal.

Last night (5 November 2008, about 7:30 PM) the signal level for KPXC-DT began fluctuating wildly as received here in Fort Collins. On my RCA DTA800B CECB, the audio-visiual signal indicator sounded like a theremin gone mad, and the indicator bar frequently dropped to zero.

Did anyone else notice any dropouts?


Jim McCauley

We noticed 7.1 KMGH-DT is having intermittent signal interruptions last night and this morning?

I too am noticing intermittent signal interruptions. The most recent was during Dancing with the Stars last night. I definitely started noticing the interruptions right at the time that the sub-channel showed up, but can't be sure the exact moment of the first interruption. However, it definitely occurred during the Texas vs. Texas Tech game in the 4th quarter.

I will email KMGH to report the problem.

EDIT: I also noticed the 1-2 seconds of signal loss during Tuesday night election coverage as well. I am using a Sony KDF-E50A10 and KDL52XBR4 TV for the OTA reception.

Last night (5 November 2008, about 7:30 PM) the signal level for KPXC-DT began fluctuating wildly as received here in Fort Collins. On my RCA DTA800B CECB, the audio-visiual signal indicator sounded like a theremin gone mad, and the indicator bar frequently dropped to zero.

Did anyone else notice any dropouts?
Jim McCauley

Is your antenna outdoors or indoors? The reason I ask is that I've seen strong wind gusts (which we were getting in Fort Collins last night) affect signal quality. My antenna is outdoors, and the mount is extremely sturdy. However, even though the mast is rock solid (and the mast is clamped both above and below the antenna to a very stable chimney, and a set screw is screwed through the clamp to the mast to prevent the mast from turning), the antenna itself (a CM4228) can bend a little in the wind. I suspect the new version of the CM 4228 will be even more susceptible to this since it is even wider.

Anyway, that type of small bending didn't have any real effect on NTSC signals, but ATSC seems to be a lot more sensitive to that. I can be watching the meter and see it take a dive at the same time I hear a strong wind gust (i.e. strong enough to hear inside with the windows closed). In most cases the signal doesn't drop enough to actually cause packet loss, but sometimes it does, depending on how strong the signal is in the first place.

Broncos game is in HD on KWGNDT 2-1 tonight. They are passing along the NFL Network feed. It looks pretty good OTA, but to my eyes the NFL channel 212 on Directv looks a little better. Maybe it's the MPEG-4 compression on D*?

Broncos game is in HD on KWGNDT 2-1 tonight. They are passing along the NFL Network feed. It looks pretty good OTA, but to my eyes the NFL channel 212 on Directv looks a little better. Maybe it's the MPEG-4 compression on D*?

It's the 2-2 subchannel robbing bandwith. Good thing as they haven't shown anything on that channel in months. :rolleyes: I'm also getting that annoying audio "static" sound that I get when I watch 2 1/2 Men, but it's every other second tonight.

Is your antenna outdoors or indoors?

In the attic under the eaves, completely protected from the wind. There is no sheetrock in the signal path.

Odd, eh?


Jim McCauley

It's the 2-2 subchannel robbing bandwith. Good thing as they haven't shown anything on that channel in months. :rolleyes: I'm also getting that annoying audio "static" sound that I get when I watch 2 1/2 Men, but it's every other second tonight.
I got those annoying static sounds too. Tried it on both my LCD and Plasma, and both had it.

Here in Boulder, TheDenverChannel7 (ABC) that was previously available on 7.1 has vanished. Thanks to this thread I understand it is because of the addition of the spanish channel 7.27 that has cut the power of 7.1 in half, or screwed it up in some manner.

Hopefully they'll recognize that Boulder doesn't get TheDenverChannel7 in digital anymore and will restore it soon.

Here in Boulder, TheDenverChannel7 (ABC) that was previously available on 7.1 has vanished. Thanks to this thread I understand it is because of the addition of the spanish channel 7.27 that has cut the power of 7.1 in half, or screwed it up in some manner.

Hopefully they'll recognize that Boulder doesn't get TheDenverChannel7 in digital anymore and will restore it soon.

Adding a subchannel should in no way affect your reception. I say "should" because it is possible that the change might confuse your tuner in some way. If that is the case then possibly resetting or doing a full rescan might fix the problem.

Adding a subchannel can affect the quality (but not in terms of reception) of the picture. It won't cause dropouts or random pixelation.

Other people have noticed reception problems, so there very well may be a change that KMGH made that does affect your reception (for example cutting transmit power or changing the antenna configuration). Adding the subchannel is not the cause.

Hey MacGyver, I'd like to see a picture of that!

I think this is the site that DenverJim got his inspiration from.

http://uhfhdtvantenna.blogspot.com/

It does look deceptively easy, especially if it beats out something much more expensive.

Friday, I was in the KMart on 2151 North Main street, Longmont CO.
They had:
Magnavox TB100MG9 PassThru;EZAdd(ScanUpdt)
Zenith DTT901 PassThru;Now/NextEPG
DTVPal

The Radio Shack in Twin Peaks Mall is selling:
DigitalStream DTX9950 PassThru;EZAdd(ScanUpdt);8hrEPG
Zenith DTT901 PassThru;Now/NextEPG

Now, I wonder if any store, nearby is selling the Zinwell ZAT?

I think this is the site that DenverJim got his inspiration from.

http://uhfhdtvantenna.blogspot.com/

It does look deceptively easy, especially if it beats out something much more expensive.

Hwy Zuwadza. You are correct. My looks exactly like the one in the website except my plywood was a little bigger. Too be honest, I was shocked it worked at all much less getting 90+% signal strength on all the local channels. I had the parts lying around and cost me nothing to build. Took me about an hour to put together.

I am so happy with my 950. I originally had reservations about spending $1500 more for the latest version available, but am glad I did now. Hooked up my new Panny BRDVD last night and watched 3:10 To Yuma in 24p mode and was just blown away. I was surprised the 950 Anynet+ picked it up and allows me to use the 950 remote to control the panny.

Just wanted to note that 7.1 KMGH-DT signal dropped 3 times on Saturday evening, Nov. 8th, in southwest Longmont.

Time of signal loss:
08:00:40 PM MST (approximately 2-3 seconds)
08:00:50 PM MST (approximately 2-3 seconds)
08:01:10 PM MST (approximately 15-20 seconds)

Also for the first time, I started noticing some minor motion blur or pixelation while watching Saturday Night College Football (Texas Tech vs. Oklahoma St.). Mostly noticeable on close up shots and the animated ESPN graphics.

I have never had any reception problems with 7.1 KMGH-DT since they moved to Lookout Mtn. until recently.

I also noticed some intermittent reception problems with the KMGH signal over the weekend.

It does look deceptively easy, especially if it beats out something much more expensive.
Depends on what you time is worth. You can get a Channel Master 4221 (essentially the same design) from Amazon for $29+shipping.

7.1 KMGH-HD sinal loss on November 10th in Southwest Longmont:

8:00 PM MST (2-3 seconds)
8:01 PM MST (15-20 seconds)

Interesting that this is the exact time and duration as the signal loss on November 8th.

Also noticed 7.1 is now KMGH-HD compared to the previous KMGH-DT.

Of course the Channel Master 4221 will be of limited use in Denver post-February when most network stations go back to VHF.

... unless their rep/engineer is/are downright stupid, I don't see how they could miss KBDI on channel 38 unless the STA request is for 2-17-09 and forward.

I don't know about stupid, but they do appear to be negligent. The following is from KPJR's 11/05 DTV transition status report:

TRINITY CHRISTIAN CENTER OF SANTA ANA, INC. ACQUIRED THE PERMIT FOR KPJR-DT, DTV CHANNEL 38 FROM RICHLAND RESERVE, LLC UPON CONSUMMATION OF ASSIGNMENT BAPCDT-20080716AAZ. KPJR-DT IS AUTHORIZED FOR DIGITAL OPERATION ONLY AND NEVER HAD AN ANALOG CHANNEL. IT HAS BEEN AWARDED MAXIMIZATION APPROVAL FOR CHANNEL 38 (BMPCDT-20080616ACF). IT PRESENTLY HAS PENDING AN STA REQUEST TO OPERATE PRE-AND POST-TRANSITION ON CHANNEL 38 WITH A REDUCED ERP UNTIL SUCH TIME AS IT CAN COMPLETE CONSTRUCTION OF ITS MAXIMIZED FACILITY (BDSTA-20080924ADC). THE TERM OF ITS MAXIMIZED CONSTRUCTION PERMIT RUNS THROUGH JANUARY 10, 2010.

My guess is that the FCC is quite aware of the conflict, since KPJR's initial CP approval was quite clear that they could not begin operation before February 18th. But it seems pretty clear that the people at Trinity Christian are not aware of the conflict.

Good grief! There are so many unused UHF channels in the metro area, why do these broadcasters keep ending up stepping on the few that are used (e.g., 17 and now 38)? Is there something special about the ones currently being used that makes them more attractive than those that are currently unused?

Of course the Channel Master 4221 will be of limited use in Denver post-February when most network stations go back to VHF.We'll see. KMGH, KUSA, and KBDI will be on the high VHF band. Everyone else will be on UHF.

My CM4228 (big brother of the CM4221) gets very clear reception of the analog signal on 7 and 9, so I'm expecting it will still work after the transition.

Looks like we get a "soft test" next Monday from KUSA.

http://www.9news.com/news/article.aspx?storyid=103594&catid=222

Looks like we get a "soft test" next Monday from KUSA.

Ditto for KMGH, which had a blurb during last night's news about doing a soft test on the same day. I'll bet this is by FCC directive; if so, 7 and 9 will have plenty of company next Monday.

Looks like we get a "soft test" next Monday from KUSA.

http://www.9news.com/news/article.aspx?storyid=103594&catid=222

I hope you all will pardon the dumb question. Does this mean on Monday they will send a digital signal on their high-VHF frequency, i.e. the one that we use if we tune in on 9 analog?

-Sarah

My CM4228 (big brother of the CM4221) gets very clear reception of the analog signal on 7 and 9, so I'm expecting it will still work after the transition.


I have a CM4228 also, but I am hoping, rather than expecting, to be able to receive the high VHF channels. Getting the analog signal is a cause for hope, but there are too many variables to be sure that you will get the digital signal. It is hard to compare the analog power to the digital power and determine whether or not we will still be able to get the digital signal. IF KUSA gets their maximization request approved then I will expect to get them. I'm a little less optimistic about KMGH and KBDI.

I hope you all will pardon the dumb question. Does this mean on Monday they will send a digital signal on their high-VHF frequency, i.e. the one that we use if we tune in on 9 analog?
-Sarah

I really really wish that was true, but that would be more of a "hard test". A soft test means that instead of sending the same programming on both their analog and their pre-transition digital station they will send something different. Typically on the analog station they will say something like "If you are seeing this then you probably need to take steps to continue getting our programming after February 17th" (I say probably because some cable providers may still be providing the analog service, rather than the digital service), along with a website pointer for further information. On the digital station they will send something like "You are ready for the digital transition". That message may be a full screen message or it may be a text crawl at the bottom of the screen.

If there are any cable providers that are still sending the analog service I sure hope they are ready for some phone calls on Monday!

I have a CM4228 also, but I am hoping, rather than expecting, to be able to receive the high VHF channels.

Well, I'm optimistic about my 4228 working for KUSA and KMGH. As I've never received much more than sniffs of KBDI, I can't be disappointed either way... :)

I really really wish that was true, but that would be more of a "hard test". A soft test means that instead of sending the same programming on both their analog and their pre-transition digital station they will send something different. Typically on the analog station they will say something like "If you are seeing this then you probably need to take steps to continue getting our programming after February 17th" (I say probably because some cable providers may still be providing the analog service, rather than the digital service), along with a website pointer for further information. On the digital station they will send something like "You are ready for the digital transition". That message may be a full screen message or it may be a text crawl at the bottom of the screen.

If there are any cable providers that are still sending the analog service I sure hope they are ready for some phone calls on Monday!

Thanks for the explanation.

I still can't receive KUSA's digital in any sort of reliable way. So I'll be one of the lucky people seeing the "you're not ready" message.

They aren't at full power yet right? So I can't really see how this is an acurate soft test.:confused:

It's the 2-2 subchannel robbing bandwith. Good thing as they haven't shown anything on that channel in months. :rolleyes: I'm also getting that annoying audio "static" sound that I get when I watch 2 1/2 Men, but it's every other second tonight.

I got that annoying loud intermittant "cHUEET" static sound every other second or during the entire Broncos game last Thursday on Comcast 656 (channrl 2 DT).

Posted by jsmar:
If there are any cable providers that are still sending the analog service I sure hope they are ready for some phone calls on Monday!
I believe both E* and D* fall into that category also!

Posted by jsmar:

I believe both E* and D* fall into that category also!

E*, assuming they followed their published migration plan schedule, switched their metro-Denver locals from the analog feed to the digital feed back in September. I don't know about D*.

Comcast still offers analog service (my mother-in-law subscribes to it), which begs the question, will those folks see a message that they need to do something in order to get DTV? Of course they don't, as Comcast has informed me that their conversion to totally digital cable won't occur until 2012. If my mother-in-law sees that message on her analog cable, she'll freak and call me because I told her the 2/17/09 conversion didn't affect her.

Comcast cannot continue to provide the number of analog channels that it currently does, and have bandwidth to support digital, especially new HD channels, which they're going to have to start adding. Channels at the "higher end of the dial" are going to go away probably sooner than 2012, so your in-law may still freak when AMC or something else she currently gets without a cable box all of a sudden disappears.

Comcast cannot continue to provide the number of analog channels that it currently does, and have bandwidth to support digital, especially new HD channels, which they're going to have to start adding. Channels at the "higher end of the dial" are going to go away probably sooner than 2012, so your in-law may still freak when AMC or something else she currently gets without a cable box all of a sudden disappears.

Comcast is chipping away at Basic Analog Cable. They eliminated their program guide on analog cable some time ago. We're waiting for Comcast to offer her an inexpensive (no or very low monthly charge) digital conversion option so she can escape this deteriorating service situation. BTW, I don't know if she'd notice the loss of AMC, but if she lost Animal Planet, that would be a crisis. She lives off SS and a part-time job, so every dollar counts.

This is driving me nuts. I just got a new Sony Z. I live in Park Hill and get everything OTA. So I ran the setup for the TV Guide feature. And I have run it more than once to try and cure these issues.

The problem is I get multiple channels at each channel. For example, at 4.1, which is our local CBS station, I get the following (the locations I got from Google searches):

CBS - KCNC Denver (the one I should get)
ABC - KDUH Scottsbluff, NE
FOX - KFQX Grand Juntion
ABC - KPRY Pierre, SD
PBS - KCWC Riverton, WY
ABC - KBLY Colby, KS
FOX - KSNB Lincoln, NE

All these show up at 4.1. If i click on any one of them, I still end up at our local CBS station. If I try to "hide" the bogus ones using the menu, hiding any channel at 4.1 hides them all, so that doesn't work. Not only does this make the TV Guide feature almost useless, but it affects everythign else. The logos on the "favorites" menus are all wrong and change all the time, and when I change channels the info bar at the top of the screen is all wrong. Like right now 9.1 shows as the CW, and of course the program information it displays is wrong too. Help???

I'm seeing some strange breakups on KUSA. Instead of the normal breakup type of pixelation I might see on a channel where the signal is jumping around I am seeing horizontal lines of bad pixels. My hdhomerun has a variety of meters, one of which is "Symbol Quality". If that stays at 100 then there should be no problems. It is locked at 100, my signal Quality is in the 90's, but I am still seeing breakups.

I have some scanning software that is showing a bunch of CRC failures. I think those errors are being injected somewhere before being transmitted, i.e. this really looks like something is broken on KUSA's side, i.e. this does not look like a reception problem.

Oops, never mind, they just went off the air for 10 seconds and came back with a perfect signal.

Also, they've been bouncing back and forth changing 9.1's channel name from KUSA-DT to KUSA-HD and 9.2's channel name from Weather to WX-Plus. Currently it is set to the latter.

I'm seeing some strange breakups on KUSA.

Yeah, I noticed that too during Ellen. I assumed that it was a problem at the source since my KUSA reception is usually rock solid, but it's nice to know that it wasn't just me.

Also, they've been bouncing back and forth changing 9.1's channel name from KUSA-DT to KUSA-HD and 9.2's channel name from Weather to WX-Plus.

I wish they would pick one and stick with it. This change messed up the program timers on my Zinwell converter box since it uses the channel name rather than the channel number. What a dumb design!

I wish they would pick one and stick with it.
Yes, I thought they were going to stay with the new values, but they switched back once again this morning. I don't know if they really are having a hard time deciding or something else is going on.

KCNC (4.1) has had low signal levels since yesterday. My tuner can't lock on the signal. No other stations signal levels seem to have changed, so the low levels on 4.1 seem to be a transmission problem.

KCNC (4.1) has had low signal levels since yesterday. My tuner can't lock on the signal. No other stations signal levels seem to have changed, so the low levels on 4.1 seem to be a transmission problem.
I haven't seen any drop in signal levels for KCNC here in Fort Collins. It still is in the mid 90's on my meter. Is your signal "meter" showing lower levels, or are you assuming lower levels because you can't lock? There may be other reasons you can't lock (e.g. the tuner is locking the signal, but not displaying anything because of a PSIP change that your tuner doesn't like).

I haven't seen any drop in signal levels for KCNC here in Fort Collins. It still is in the mid 90's on my meter. Is your signal "meter" showing lower levels, or are you assuming lower levels because you can't lock? There may be other reasons you can't lock (e.g. the tuner is locking the signal, but not displaying anything because of a PSIP change that your tuner doesn't like).The meter is showing significantly lower levels. It's the meter on a Zenith DTT901 CECB. I just checked and the meter is still in the Bad range. Until yesterday, it was in the Good area.

KCNC (4.1) has had low signal levels since yesterday. My tuner can't lock on the signal. No other stations signal levels seem to have changed, so the low levels on 4.1 seem to be a transmission problem.

Here in Louisville, my experience agrees with yours. My Philips TV has my oldest digital tuner and cannot recover 4.1, and it also shows a lower signal strength than it did. There is enough signal for my newer receivers to lock on to it. I first noticed the problem on Saturday.

KCNC (4.1) has had low signal levels since yesterday. My tuner can't lock on the signal. No other stations signal levels seem to have changed, so the low levels on 4.1 seem to be a transmission problem.

My signal strength for KCNC-DT has dropped about 10% from what it had been at for months. Most noticeable on my Dish ViP211 tuner.

On another note, did anyone else notice the screwed-up transmission on KUSA-DT OTA last night during the news. It started about a minute into the news and lasted for 15 or 20 minutes. I didn't get an exact duration since I switched to KMGH's news. I checked my KUSA-DT feed from Dish and it was showing the same broken-up screen shot. It almost looked like a bad analog TV signal with some green streaks thrown in. Anyone know what happened?

On another note, did anyone else notice the screwed-up transmission on KUSA-DT OTA last night during the news. It started about a minute into the news and lasted for 15 or 20 minutes. I didn't get an exact duration since I switched to KMGH's news. I checked my KUSA-DT feed from Dish and it was showing the same broken-up screen shot. It almost looked like a bad analog TV signal with some green streaks thrown in. Anyone know what happened?

Yep, it was on Comcast too.

On another note, did anyone else notice the screwed-up transmission on KUSA-DT OTA last night during the news. It started about a minute into the news and lasted for 15 or 20 minutes. I didn't get an exact duration since I switched to KMGH's news. I checked my KUSA-DT feed from Dish and it was showing the same broken-up screen shot. It almost looked like a bad analog TV signal with some green streaks thrown in. Anyone know what happened?

This may be the same thing I saw Thursday afternoon. It seemed to manifest itself as a variety of random horizontal lines across the picture, where each line was the height of one mpeg macroblock. It looks like some type of intermittent failure on KUSA's part.

Here in Louisville, my experience agrees with yours. My Philips TV has my oldest digital tuner and cannot recover 4.1, and it also shows a lower signal strength than it did. There is enough signal for my newer receivers to lock on to it. I first noticed the problem on Saturday.

I believe I'm seeing the same sort of thing in Lafayette. I can lock, but I seem to lose lock intermittently quite easily. This results in break-ups that are much more frequent on KCNC than in the past (or on any of the other stations that I do receive).

I believe I'm seeing the same sort of thing in Lafayette. I can lock, but I seem to lose lock intermittently quite easily. This results in break-ups that are much more frequent on KCNC than in the past (or on any of the other stations that I do receive).

When I checked about 12:30PM today, 4.1 (KCNC-DT) seemed to back to the signal strength I noticed before Saturday.

I just checked and 4.1 is still a no-go for me.

I have a Zinwell converter box that has two signal meters named signal intensity and signal quality. I checked it a few hours ago, and the signal insensity for KCNC is showing 85 which is normal for me. However, the signal quality has dropped from 98-100 to about 68-70. Not sure what that means exactly. I haven't had any reception issues yet, but I just thought I would mention it.

I have a Zinwell converter box that has two signal meters named signal intensity and signal quality. I checked it a few hours ago, and the signal insensity for KCNC is showing 85 which is normal for me. However, the signal quality has dropped from 98-100 to about 68-70. Not sure what that means exactly. I haven't had any reception issues yet, but I just thought I would mention it.

I have a Channel master box and a HD TV with a digital tuner. The box is at 100 and the TV is 95 and haven't seen anly problems up here in Milliken.
I wonder if there is some kind of interferance down south were you guys are?

I just checked and 4.1 is still a no-go for me.
As I reported, 4.1 looked OK at 12:30PM. When I checked at 9PM, the signal was weak again.

I have a Zinwell converter box that has two signal meters named signal intensity and signal quality. I checked it a few hours ago, and the signal insensity for KCNC is showing 85 which is normal for me. However, the signal quality has dropped from 98-100 to about 68-70. Not sure what that means exactly. The signal intensity appears to be a simple power meter. I have an amplifier on my Zinwell, and the intensity meter moves up-and-down as I adjust the power up-and-down.

The quality meter appears to be a Bit-Error-Rate meter, or something similar. I have seen stations with 100% intensity, but only 20% quality, due to extreme noise on the line creating lots of errors.

The signal intensity appears to be a simple power meter. I have an amplifier on my Zinwell, and the intensity meter moves up-and-down as I adjust the power up-and-down.

The quality meter appears to be a Bit-Error-Rate meter, or something similar. I have seen stations with 100% intensity, but only 20% quality, due to extreme noise on the line creating lots of errors.

I think the quality meter is related to Signal to Noise ratio, not error rate. An error rate meter would show the "digital cliff effect", i.e. it would be pegged at or close to 100 (depending if it is showing correctable errors or not) until the signal drops to the point where the picture starts to break up and then the meter would drop fairly quickly to zero as the signal continues to drop.

From the behaviour others have described for the Zinwell, this is not the case. A signal quality of 60-70 would produce a very distorted picture if the signal quality was related to error rate, whereas if it is related to S/N ratio you may very well still have 0 errors after correction.

An error rate meter would show the "digital cliff effect", i.e. it would be pegged at or close to 100 No not really. A BER meter will show errors. The fact that these errors are correctable doesn't change the fact that the errors still exist in the bitstream, and would display 60-70% quality rather than 100%.

The BER meter would also show a certain level of data received, even if the image can not be seen. That would be the case when the Zinwell displays "20%" quality" but displays nothing. ...whereas if it is related to S/N ratio you may very well still have 0 errors after correction. How does the Zinwell determine what is signal and what is noise in order to display a S/N ratio?

Whatever the meter on the Dish ViP211 may be reading, it is still reading about 10% lower than what it did a couple of weeks ago. The leaves on the trees were long gone before this signal decrease occurred and I've checked it on non-windy days and it is still down from previous.

On a related issue, I've notice this week that my OTA signal from KWGN-DT is also off on signal. I used to average 78 to 80 on my ViP211, but now I'm averaging 68 to 70 and I actually get total drop outs during the morning news.

Fortunately, sometime in the past few weeks (months), Dish started delivering KWGN as an HD channel (equal to the KWGN-DT OTA), Dish channel 6334. I discovered it this morning during one of those periods when the signal kept dropping on my OTA KWGN-DT.

I'm surprised nobody commented on the Analog test yesterday. All the stations broadcasted on the analog channels a message for about 7hrs, that your TV is not ready for the 'switch'. That should've gotten the attention of the remaining analog hold-outs.

I'm surprised nobody commented on the Analog test yesterday.I am the reverse demographic from those this test was aimed at. I never look at analog.

KUSA did a story on their 10:00 news last night about the transition. At the end of it, Mark Koebrich was holding two antennas - an old VHF only and a new UHF only. The gist of what he said was that your old antenna (VHF) might work with digital TV but if it didn't, you should get a new one (UHF). KUSA should know better.

Also, did anyone note that Ostrow's column in the Sunday Post mentioned getting a new "digital" antenna?

KUSA did a story on their 10:00 news last night about the transition. At the end of it, Mark Koebrich was holding two antennas - an old VHF only and a new UHF only. The gist of what he said was that your old antenna (VHF) might work with digital TV but if it didn't, you should get a new one (UHF). KUSA should know better.

Also, did anyone note that Ostrow's column in the Sunday Post mentioned getting a new "digital" antenna?

What did KUSA say about the results of the "soft" test?

I think it would have been a lot more useful if the displayed message told the viewer to call a local help line where a "real person" could discuss what equipment the viewer was using and what equipment they may need to add. Just telling folks they need to do something from a list of options may take care of a few who got the message, but the rest will still believe this is all too complicated and won't do anything yet.

Ostrow's column was a joke from beginning to end and the "digital" antenna comment just demonstrated how out of touch she is. The poor Denver Post.

This news made me smile when I saw it.

http://www.9news.com/sports/article.aspx?storyid=104073&catid=345

There's a part about channel 20 getting the Rockies games in HD through 2020.

This news made me smile when I saw it.

http://www.9news.com/sports/article.aspx?storyid=104073&catid=345

There's a part about channel 20 getting the Rockies games in HD through 2020.

It says games will no longer be on 20. It looks like they will all be on Fox Sports Rocky Mountain now.

"We have enjoyed a long association with the Colorado Rockies and unfortunately these games will no longer be a part of the KTVD line-up," said 9NEWS President and General Manager Mark Cornetta

No not really. A BER meter will show errors. The fact that these errors are correctable doesn't change the fact that the errors still exist in the bitstream, and would display 60-70% quality rather than 100%.

The BER meter would also show a certain level of data received, even if the image can not be seen. That would be the case when the Zinwell displays "20%" quality" but displays nothing. How does the Zinwell determine what is signal and what is noise in order to display a S/N ratio?

After doing some more research I can see that you are essentially correct. Measuring S/N in an 8-VSB signal is almost directly related to measuring error rate, although not exactly the same. But measuring error rates before correction is an easier way of computing a value that tracks with S/N, and that is almost certainly what most meters on tuners are displaying.

Hoo boy, the fun this could cause:

A bill that would allow broadcasters to keep their analog signals running for a couple weeks past the Feb. 17, 2009 date could get a vote in the Senate as early as Wednesday.

According to Emily Kryder, press secretary to Rep. Lois Capps (D-CA), word is the bill could be approved by unanimous consent by week's end. Capps introduced a similar bill in the House, and a source said the Senate vote would essentially be on a modified draft of the House bill. If it passes the Senate, it would then go to the House for a vote. If that is the case, it is likely to pass "in short order," said a Senate source, particularly since congressional leadership is looking to actually get some things done rather than appear to simply be flapping its wings in the lame duck session.

The Senate version was introduced by Jay Rockefeller (D-WVA).

The bill would require broadcasters to transition their primary channel feeds to digital by Feb. 17, but would allow, though not require, them to continue to broadcast DTV-education information and emergency information in analog for 30 days past the Feb. 17, 2009 date.

http://www.broadcastingcable.com/article/CA6615642.html

That would certainly make flash-cutting interesting…

It appears the analog transmitters will only be used to display a "message board" to tell viewers how to upgrade their analog sets to digital.

Also these analog transmitters would not be allowed to operate if they interfere with other stations. For example channel 10 in Philly could not continue broadcasting because it would block channel 27's new DT10 signal in Harrisburg.

I have been reporting 7.1 KMGH-HD signal drops in Southwest Longmont. It appears that the signal drops or interruptions is consistent on an interval basis.

Here is the pattern I am noticing:

1. Signal drops occurred between 8:00 - 8:01 PM MST.
2. There is a total of 3 signal drops or interruptions withing the specified timeframe.
3. Two of the signal drops last 2-3 seconds with the third lasting 15-20 seconds.

Here is the last two most current events:

Saturday, November 15th, 2008 during the Colorado vs. Oklahoma St. game.
Wednesday, November 18th, 2008 during Dancing with the Stars.

I only tune into 7.1 KMGH-HD for Saturday night College Football and Tuesday & Wednesday Dancing with the Stars and so I cannot speak for the other days of the week. I did miss Dancing with the Stars this last Tuesday.

Anyone has any idea what may be causing this signal drop on 7.1 KMGH-HD?

What did KUSA say about the results of the "soft" test?

I think it would have been a lot more useful if the displayed message told the viewer to call a local help line where a "real person" could discuss what equipment the viewer was using and what equipment they may need to add. Just telling folks they need to do something from a list of options may take care of a few who got the message, but the rest will still believe this is all too complicated and won't do anything yet.

Ostrow's column was a joke from beginning to end and the "digital" antenna comment just demonstrated how out of touch she is. The poor Denver Post.

KUSA did have a number you could call for help. I didn't call so I don't know if there was a real person available.

I have been reporting 7.1 KMGH-HD signal drops in Southwest Longmont. It appears that the signal drops or interruptions is consistent on an interval basis.

Here is the pattern I am noticing:

1. Signal drops occurred between 8:00 - 8:01 PM MST.
2. There is a total of 3 signal drops or interruptions withing the specified timeframe.
3. Two of the signal drops last 2-3 seconds with the third lasting 15-20 seconds.

Here is the last two most current events:

Saturday, November 15th, 2008 during the Colorado vs. Oklahoma St. game.
Wednesday, November 18th, 2008 during Dancing with the Stars.

I only tune into 7.1 KMGH-HD for Saturday night College Football and Tuesday & Wednesday Dancing with the Stars and so I cannot speak for the other days of the week. I did miss Dancing with the Stars this last Tuesday.

Anyone has any idea what may be causing this signal drop on 7.1 KMGH-HD?

My wife records General Hospital every day from KMGH DT off DirecTV on our HR21. Every day for the past couple of weeks we get the same type of drop out at the beginning of the program. It does not happen on any other channel.

My wife records General Hospital every day from KMGH DT off DirecTV on our HR21. Every day for the past couple of weeks we get the same type of drop out at the beginning of the program. It does not happen on any other channel.

Does anyone know for sure how DirecTV gets its signal from KMGH? DO they get a direct feed or do they receive the OTA signal?

In thinking about this a little, I realized that perhaps in the transition from analog to digital we have lost some information in being able to diagnose problems. With analog, if the failure was at the transmitter, we got snow, whereas if the failure was at the studio or the uplink from the studio we got a blank screen. With digital I'm not sure we can tell the difference, because without any packets being sent a digital tuner may behave no differently than if there is no signal. I'm not even sure what a digital transmitter puts out when the feed from the studio goes out, and whether or not it would be recognized as an 8-vsb signal. Perhaps, depending on the type of signal meter(s) your tuner has you may be able to tell the difference. Is this correct, or am I missing something?

FYI, KQCK (Channel 11) has been off the air since about 2:45 PM.

With analog, if the failure was at the transmitter, we got snow, whereas if the failure was at the studio or the uplink from the studio we got a blank screen.

Based on your theory, the blank screen might apply to digital as well as analog. I've noticed on KWGN-DT that I often get a black screen at the beginning of a program or after a commercial break. I've always assumed this was an editing problem, but I suppose it could indicate some other type of problem.

FYI, KQCK (Channel 11) has been off the air since about 2:45 PM.

I noticed that too. However, my reception for KQCK is extremely marginal, so I never know for sure whether it's truly off the air or whether I'm just having reception problems.

As long as we're talking about KQCK, is there any way to improve indoor VHF reception. I'm currently using a Terk HDTVa antenna which does a pretty good job, but it would be nice if there were something better.

Are rabbit ears the best thing that anyone has come up with for indoor VHF reception? I mean there are dozens, if not hundreds of indoor UHF antennas. It just seems like there should be some alternative to rabbit ears. Any suggestions? Unfortunately, an outdoor antenna is not an option for me because I live in a south facing apartment with no deck or patio.

I have been reporting 7.1 KMGH-HD signal drops in Southwest Longmont. It appears that the signal drops or interruptions is consistent on an interval basis.

Here is the pattern I am noticing:

1. Signal drops occurred between 8:00 - 8:01 PM MST.
2. There is a total of 3 signal drops or interruptions withing the specified timeframe.
3. Two of the signal drops last 2-3 seconds with the third lasting 15-20 seconds.

Here is the last two most current events:

Saturday, November 15th, 2008 during the Colorado vs. Oklahoma St. game.
Wednesday, November 18th, 2008 during Dancing with the Stars.

I only tune into 7.1 KMGH-HD for Saturday night College Football and Tuesday & Wednesday Dancing with the Stars and so I cannot speak for the other days of the week. I did miss Dancing with the Stars this last Tuesday.

Anyone has any idea what may be causing this signal drop on 7.1 KMGH-HD?

Stay up later and you'll find other driops like clockwork. I thoughts it was random, but now I see they occur at exactly the same time every night. At the end of Nightline at 11:00 you get the same three drop pattern.

Here's an interesting story of one television station in Montana that received permission from the FCC to kill their analog signal and go full power digital earlier than the transition date....

Montana Station Completes Analog Shutoff, Offers Lessons

http://www.tvtechnology.com:80/article/69232

That was a great story. Especially how the station's employees got receiver coupons and gave them out to elderly! Not to mention that they actually sent their employees out to some of the homes to help them get hooked up.

I miss small town kindness.

kucharsk, please see posts 4149 and 4150.

Of course. Everyone knows the 1's and 0's will get jammed up in an old analog antenna.

kucharsk, please see posts 4149 and 4150.

Whoops, missed that, just saw the KUSA bits.

4.1 is being received at a higher strength today.

4.1 is being received at a higher strength today.

Yes, apparently it's at double strength :rolleyes:

Yes, apparently it's at double strength :rolleyes:

I wonder if KCNC is actually changing things, or this particular change is related to atmospheric conditions. I was able to get KKTV from Colorado Springs today for a while (I'm in Fort Collins), indicating some type of tropospheric enhancement (refraction or ducting). Of course, the frequencies are nowhere near each other (KKTV is in the high VHF band on RF channel 10, whereas KCNC is in the UHF band on RF channel 35), but some tropospheric conditions help across a wide range of frequencies. Note, it probably helps that KQCK is off the air again, since it is on an adjacent channel (RF channel 11).

On another completely different note, KMGH finally decided that daylight savings time has ended, and cleared the daylight savings flag in their PSIP data this morning.

Stay up later and you'll find other driops like clockwork. I thoughts it was random, but now I see they occur at exactly the same time every night. At the end of Nightline at 11:00 you get the same three drop pattern.

I don't know if this is related or not, but for the past several weeks I have been noticing something similar while watching DirecTVs version of this station. I don't watch much on ABC, but it seems to happen during the beginning of Grey's Anatomy. There is always a quick 2 to 3 second drop out, followed shortly by a longer 10 to 15 second drop out. I have noticed this mostly on Greys Anatomy, but I think I've also seen it on Desperate Housewives. The drop out immediately goes black and accompanies a stutter sound. This is on a DirecTV hr20-700, watching the sat broadcast of 7.1

My signal strength for KCNC-DT has dropped about 10% from what it had been at for months. Most noticeable on my Dish ViP211 tuner.


Well that explains why I can now only get ch4 or ch7 but not both. I had about a 1 degree range on the roof top antenna where I could get both. I can now orient to get one or other but I can't get both to show up on either the DTT901 or the DTV Pal Plus. meh!

Channel 4.1 dropped below my receiving capability again. Maybe tomorrow I'll re-aim the antenna to see if I can get a stronger signal.

Well if Boulder and Longmont guys can no longer receive KCNC-DT and if I'm seeing a reduced signal in west Arvada, it sounds to me like KCNC has adjusted their digital broadcast antenna on the LCG tower, perhaps pointing it more to the south.

All the Denver stations are down 2-5 DB here in Fort Collins. As someone else mentioned earlier on this thread, when the wind blows reception gets worse for a while. That wipes out channels 9 and 12 for me, and I haven't gotten 6 for about 4 months.

Bill

Is anyone here using a new Tivo HD or S3 Tivo HD receiver (not DirecTV) with OTA that can tell me what channel numbers our locals show up on? Is it 2-1, 4-1, 7-1, 9-1, 20-1, 31-1 as is the case with a DirecTV HDTivo (HR10-250)? Also, where does the guide come from and does it correspond to those channel numbers? Background: I have currently have a HR10-250 for DirecTV and am using it with OTA for HD locals but I have another room that I can't run sat feeds to but that I can feed with OTA and would like to get the HD locals and it would be nice if they were on the same channel #s and have a guide.

KCNC-DT must be playing around during the day.

Last Friday and yesterday (Monday) my TiVo S3 only recorded part of The Price Is Right because the signal just plain wasn't there for part of the broadcast.

However, save for a few dropouts, my recording of How I Met Your Mother was just fine.

Is anyone here using a new Tivo HD or S3 Tivo HD receiver (not DirecTV) with OTA that can tell me what channel numbers our locals show up on? Is it 2-1, 4-1, 7-1, 9-1, 20-1, 31-1 as is the case with a DirecTV HDTivo (HR10-250)?

The channels are indeed 2-1, 4-1, 7-1, 9-1, 20-1 and 31-1.

The channel guide however is downloaded via your phone line or broadband connection, which is why you have to pay for TiVo service.

It occurs to me that I have not heard what the programming will be on Channel 6 once the analog feed is gone.

Will we see the current (6) lineup in digital? The current (6-1) digital programming? Or a new hybrid schedule?

I understand that "The News Hour", "This Old House" and other programming staples have been available in hi-def for a while, but they were not added to 6-1 for budget reasons. Will this change?

I assume the sats will add the digital channel in place of the analog, but what will we be watching from PBS come 2-18-08?

... what will we be watching from PBS come 2-18-08?

If you are in Lafayette/Louisville/Longmont/Loveland, nothing! :(

If you are in Lafayette/Louisville/Longmont/Loveland, nothing! :(
No PBS for cities that start with L.

It occurs to me that I have not heard what the programming will be on Channel 6 once the analog feed is gone.

Will we see the current (6) lineup in digital? The current (6-1) digital programming? Or a new hybrid schedule?

I understand that "The News Hour", "This Old House" and other programming staples have been available in hi-def for a while, but they were not added to 6-1 for budget reasons. Will this change?

I assume the sats will add the digital channel in place of the analog, but what will we be watching from PBS come 2-18-08?

Come 2/18/09, KRMA-DT programming will be what would have been on KRMA analog with probably a few enhancements. The conversion to digital isn't synonymous with a conversion to Hi-Def. You'll just see the same "full screen" stuff from a digital signal as you saw from the analog signal. The picture quality will be improved, but the content will be the same.

That does beg the question as to what will KRMA do with the content they now show on KRMA-DT. I'm betting it will show up on a sub-channel (e.g., 6-3), which could be a disaster since the third sub-channel will require more bandwidth than the primary channel to provide any wide-screen HDTV.

So far during the digital conversion, there is no evidence to suggest that the powers that be at KRMA have a clue. So don't get your hopes up.

…there is no evidence to suggest that the powers that be at KRMA have a clue.

Or really give a rats rear end as long as the pledges keep rolling in!

No PBS for cities that start with L.

I'm getting ch. 6 on the ch 24 retransmission from the Williams Village Towers at Baseline and 30th. I would think Louisville and Lafayette might be able to pick it up? I'm less than a mile from WillVill so I can't make any assumptions about the strength/range of the signal.

KCNC-DT must be playing around during the day.

Last Friday and yesterday (Monday) my TiVo S3 only recorded part of The Price Is Right because the signal just plain wasn't there for part of the broadcast.

However, save for a few dropouts, my recording of How I Met Your Mother was just fine.


I had channel 4 back long enough for the DTVPal to say it had added it but not long enough for me to actually watch anything....

I'm getting ch. 6 on the ch 24 retransmission from the Williams Village Towers at Baseline and 30th. ...

That transmitter is only 250 watts -- flea power, even for DTV. See the attached service-area contour map from the FCC: It's intended for Boulder proper and barely gets to "The Three Ls." Residents of those cities would need a good UHF antenna pointed right at the signal to get so much as a whiff of it.

Come 2/18/09, KRMA-DT programming will be what would have been on KRMA analog with probably a few enhancements. The conversion to digital isn't synonymous with a conversion to Hi-Def. You'll just see the same "full screen" stuff from a digital signal as you saw from the analog signal. The picture quality will be improved, but the content will be the same.

That does beg the question as to what will KRMA do with the content they now show on KRMA-DT. I'm betting it will show up on a sub-channel (e.g., 6-3), which could be a disaster since the third sub-channel will require more bandwidth than the primary channel to provide any wide-screen HDTV.

So far during the digital conversion, there is no evidence to suggest that the powers that be at KRMA have a clue. So don't get your hopes up.

I have seen no evidence that KRMA has the equipment necessary to convert their own programming to digital. Right now they are passing through material from other sources for their digital service. They are going to need to install such equipment (if they truly don't already have it) before 2/18/09. Without that ability they will not be able to include local sponsorship messages, pledge drives, etc. Not to mention that as far as I can tell they are not doing station identifications as required (I don't think including KRMA-DT in the PSIP data counts, but maybe it does). They will also need this equipment if any of the program sources they currently use for analog channel 6 requires reencoding in order to be compatible with the ATSC standard (e.g. the source is not already an MPEG2 transport stream, or the source is HD which KRMA wants to put out as SD due to simultaneously supporting another HD subchannel).

The adjustment of my antenna fixed the 4.1 problem that I was having. It also added 12.1 and 40.1 that I previously could not get. Without leaves on the tree that I have to aim through, I was able to point the antenna between two main branches.

KCNC-DT must be playing around during the day.

Last Friday and yesterday (Monday) my TiVo S3 only recorded part of The Price Is Right because the signal just plain wasn't there for part of the broadcast.

However, save for a few dropouts, my recording of How I Met Your Mother was just fine.
Based on off the record info, those having problems with KCNC-DT(4.1) that started on Saturday 11/15/08 probably should not do anything drastic. KCNC is making changes. The antenna pattern was changed on 11/15. They will be increasing the power input to the antenna in the near future, as they go for their authorized max coverage. If all goes well, people who noticed signal strength loss will probably be fine on Sunday, and some new areas should be covered.

Posted by oxothuk:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave6833
If you are in Lafayette/Louisville/Longmont/Loveland, nothing!

No PBS for cities that start with L.

The same can be said for cities that begin with F:
Firestone, Frederick, Ft. Lupton, Ft. Collins.

Ponderings this side of the DTV transition date.....

Okay, I'm a 'free' TV junkie. I get the local DTV channels, I run an FTA satellite system and, I promote the new HD radio system. Yes, I am a partner with a longtime friend in a TV/FM antenna installation & FTA satellite installation service. We are authorized distributors for Channel Master products in Colorado. We readily promote 'free' HD television and HD radio, legally. Why pay for digital channels UNLESS you're in love with certain Premium channels that require a subscription? I enjoy the new local DTV channels, plus I have over 100 channels programmed into my FTA satellite receiver, all which are free and legal. I have more TV than I have time to watch.

I've been on the Denver and northern Colorado AVS forums for some time and there is one curiosity I've observed. It seems that many people are very impatient with the reliability of their current OTA digital signal, even though almost all of the Denver channels are still running at partial power to what their final assignment will allow after February 17, 2009. I believe there are two main reasons why the television stations won't go full power until the transition date - so there won't be RF h**l between the current full power analog signal they are putting out and the full power digital signal they are assigned to run after the transition date; also, it costs $$$ to run two separate transmitters and I am sure this is a determining factor for station management.

Now, here is something technical to consider, regarding the tuner chip in your particular receiver (television or set-top box). How well does your DTV tuner manage multipath distortion, that is, images or reflections that are secondary to the primary signal? LG Electronics found a couple years ago that many of the tuner 'chipsets' did not manage multipath very well and if the television set was very close to the broadcast tower and in a position to receive secondary images (reflections) of the original signal, the tuner 'chipset' would have a difficult time sorting the signal(s) out and may not even be able to decode the digital signal, even though the signal meter would show a respectable signal. This is why LG Electronics last December upgraded their chip (6th generation) in the Zenith / Insignia converter boxes, to address the multipath dilemma in metropolitan situations. The technology in the Zenith / Insignia converter box tuner chip is considered to be three times as good as the much pricier LCD digital television tuners. Why? Because LG knew that persons would depend on those CECB's getting the digital signal. Also, a majority of the LCD digital TV manufacturers know that most users will be using a satellite box or cable box on their digital tv, so a high quality tv tuner isn't that big of a deal. This is also why you're 'hard pressed' to find a digital TV with an electronic program guide - most persons are using a secondary source to tune to, which provides the EPG.

I am sometimes surprised to read the comments of people that have obviously not thought about what they are saying. After the so-called Denver soft test with the analog signals, one person commented on the channel 9 website forum, "I am surprised by how many stupid people there are that still do not subscribe to cable or satellite television." Okay.... (That one doesn't even deserve a reply.) I guess they were referring to the 25-80 million persons in the US that prefer to receive their local channels with an antenna.

With the tight economy right now, many people are taking a long look at their high cable or satellite bill and wondering what their options are. With the arrival of digital OTA signals, there are options available. Once the local dtv channels are up to full power, we truly can enjoy 1080i HD, if the television stations manage it correctly. That's an uncompressed HD signal, unlike the way it is many times with cable and satellite. And there are multicasting sources around the corner - what some like to call 'sub-channels'. To date, there are upwards of 20 'sub-channels' coming online nationally. Some of these will eventually reach Denver. A couple movie channels, a couple sports channels, a couple 'TV Land' type channels, plus others. Free television. During a tight economy, people start looking for more 'free' stuff to do. A scenario could be: An HD DTV station opts to run three streams during the day, the first being their primary channel, then the other two being 480i sub-channels. Then, during primetime, they turn the sub-channels 'off', then run HD on the primary channel.

I think its an exciting time to see whats going to happen with the new DTV television signal, rather than complain about the current signal situation. As the FCC says, "It's the biggest technological change in US TV in 50 years." Its a situation that OTA TV needed to stay competitive and is going to introduce a new set of rules for cable & satellite providers to deal with. Just sit back and enjoy the ride. I've had several neighbors that are cable and satellite subscribers look at the DTV signal on my LG LCD TV and say, "Wow, that's what it looks like? And its free?" It doesn't take much to convince 'pay TV' subscribers to think hard about the new free DTV signal.

By the way, I live 10 miles SW of Greeley and I get KRMA-DT 6 all the time, with about 70% signal quality. I use a CM 4228 @ 20' with a 12db amp and get all of the Denver channels reliably, with the exception of 50 and 53, which are both still running considerably low power.

I'm getting ch. 6 on the ch 24 retransmission from the Williams Village Towers at Baseline and 30th. I would think Louisville and Lafayette might be able to pick it up? I'm less than a mile from WillVill so I can't make any assumptions about the strength/range of the signal.

After the leaves fell and the winds changed or whatever happens in the fall, I am also receiving KRMA-DT on 24-1. The signal seems to be weaker in the day, stronger at night. I only watch PBS-HD at night so it works out. I'm getting nighttime signals between 66% and 70%, which is nice because MYHD is just barely able to lock and record. I do get significant dropouts on the recordings(pc needs a stronger signal then the plasma), while there are none on my panny plasma watching live.

18-1 is almost watchable now as well. I can't lock it with MYHD. The plasma is mostly ok with a bunch of dropouts every hour.

I've been working on fine tuning KLWY 27. I can get a good ghost free signal but I have to have the antenna in the back yard as I think my neighbor's house blocks it when it is on the roof. I like this channel because they sometimes show a different NFL game than KDVR 31 and are also allowed to show games during the donkeys unlike channel 31. I hope I can pickup their digital signal after they flash cut.

I lost all of my OTA channels this morning. They were all working fine last night, and this morning, nothing. This happen to anyone else, or is it just a problem on my end? I'm in Highlands Ranch, if that matters...

KCNC-DT is showing up as No Signal on all my receivers in Louisville this morning where everything else on Lookout is coming in fine as usual.

Engineering says they swear they aren't doing anything at the transmitter site or with the LCG antenna and haven't since two weeks ago, so I don't know what is going on.

I note that 2-1 is coming in at their normal level and they're on UHF 34 so I can't believe it's atmospherics at play.

Could there be someone else on UHF 35 interfering with them?

They also confirmed they changed their antenna two weeks ago "to give more signal to the north" - and would be cranking up the power two Saturdays from now.

Something really #$@!ed up is going on with KCNC-DT; I can't imagine an antenna null would vary reception this much, so I'm wondering if it's a flaky connection somehow?

(They also said mine was "the first call" so anyone else with reception issues, give their engineering department a ring…)

Funny how I had no issues receiving them from RP all those years but now that they're on the LCG tower, this?

There was a translator for KTVD on channel 35 in Fort Collins at one point, but the last FCC filing they made said they were off the air due to KCNC-DT signing on.

- Trip

...

I've been on the Denver and northern Colorado AVS forums for some time and there is one curiosity I've observed. It seems that many people are very impatient with the reliability of their current OTA digital signal, even though almost all of the Denver channels are still running at partial power to what their final assignment will allow after February 17, 2009.

Now, here is something technical to consider, regarding the tuner chip in your particular receiver (television or set-top box). How well does your DTV tuner manage multipath distortion, that is, images or reflections that are secondary to the primary signal? LG Electronics found a couple years ago that many of the tuner 'chipsets' did not manage multipath very well and if the television set was very close to the broadcast tower and in a position to receive secondary images (reflections) of the original signal, the tuner 'chipset' would have a difficult time sorting the signal(s) out and may not even be able to decode the digital signal, even though the signal meter would show a respectable signal. This is why LG Electronics last December upgraded their chip (6th generation) in the Zenith / Insignia converter boxes, to address the multipath dilemma in metropolitan situations. The technology in the Zenith / Insignia converter box tuner chip is considered to be three times as good as the much pricier LCD digital television tuners. Why? Because LG knew that persons would depend on those CECB's getting the digital signal. Also, a majority of the LCD digital TV manufacturers know that most users will be using a satellite box or cable box on their digital tv, so a high quality tv tuner isn't that big of a deal. This is also why you're 'hard pressed' to find a digital TV with an electronic program guide - most persons are using a secondary source to tune to, which provides the EPG.

Is there a listing of which stations are not a full power? I know that 7.1 and 9.1 and 12.1 are all moving back to VHF in February, but which other stations will be increasing power or moving antenna locations.

I'm going to buy an HDTV sometime in the next year and I have been disappointed in reading reviews on the sets that none of the reviews mention the OTA tuner. I would hate to get an HDTV and find that I could not receive all the stations that my Zenith DT901 picks up.

I lost all of my OTA channels this morning. They were all working fine last night, and this morning, nothing. This happen to anyone else, or is it just a problem on my end? I'm in Highlands Ranch, if that matters...

Everything's good in Longmont.

KCNC-DT is showing up as No Signal on all my receivers in Louisville this morning where everything else on Lookout is coming in fine as usual.

KCNC is down to 75% from 80% for me, but that is normal for the morning.

Everything's good in Longmont...KCNC is down to 75% from 80% for me, but that is normal for the morning.

Last night (NE Longmont near 17th and Alpine) KCNC was bouncing between 0 and 50 on my Sony TV. No lock. It's been like this for two weeks now; luckily watching the Broncos in SD hasn't made them look any worse. :rolleyes:

It occurs to me that I have not heard what the programming will be on Channel 6 once the analog feed is gone.

Will we see the current (6) lineup in digital? The current (6-1) digital programming? Or a new hybrid schedule?

I understand that "The News Hour", "This Old House" and other programming staples have been available in hi-def for a while, but they were not added to 6-1 for budget reasons. Will this change?

I assume the sats will add the digital channel in place of the analog, but what will we be watching from PBS come 2-18-08?

Based on their DTV seminar in Ft. Collins a few weeks ago (and my imperfect memory), they eventually plan to have the current analog 6 in HD, plus two (!) sub-channels: Create and V-Me. They claim that with new variable bit rate encoders the quality will be better than they are getting now (using 1999-vintage encoders) with one HD + one sub-channel.

There will probably also be a period of time between now and Feb. 17 where they will only be able to do SD for the main channel while they get some new equipment on-line.

We're still waiting to hear what the plan will be to address northern Colorado OTA.

Mark

Once again KCNC-DT's signal "came back" around 10:10 AM, during The Price Is Right; that can't just be coincidence.

On Sunday 11/23/08 I placed the following request on the KCNC contact page:
Since Saturday 11-15-2008, I have noticed variations in the signal strength of KCNC-DT. It is sometimes weak enough that my least sensitive tuner cannot recover 4.1 at all, or experiences a lot of break-up. Other people have reported similar experience in the AVS Forum that discusses Denver OTA TV. I am quite confident that it is not an antenna or pre-amp problem at my end, since Fox 31 on UHF 32 shows a very strong signal and would no doubt be affected by any problem at my end which affected your signal on UHF 35. I am also getting KBDI-DT (UHF 38) but it is a relatively weak signal since the signal from Squaw Mountain to Louisville is shadowed by Mount Tom.

My location generally has great reception of the stations on Lookout Mountain. KCNC-DT was very strong from the time you moved from Republic Plaza to Lookout Mountain until the intermittent issues that began on 11-15-2008.

I would like to know if you are aware of any problems with the transmitter over the last 8 days, or so. If you are experiencing problems, I really think you should post what is going on. At least one poster on the forum was struggling to adjust his antenna. People are trying to prepare for the transition in February, since they want to get the outside work done before winter sets in.

With all the PSAs you are running telling people to get ready for transition, it would be helpful if you kept the public informed about what is going on at your end. The last I heard was that you were supposed to be running about 500KW and would going to around 1,000KW in Feb of 2009, if not sooner.

Can you provide current status?

Can you maintain a current status of the digital transmitter section on the web page?



This morning I received the following response:
Ken - we are in the process of realigning our DTV antenna pattern and putting it in the final position for the February 17, 2009 cutover. This is a two phase process. On November 15 we changed the actual pattern and on this coming Friday, November 28, we will maximize our transmitter power. Our calculations indicated there would be few, if any viewers, that would lose their signal because of these changes. The end result of the pattern and power changes are that more viewers will get our DTV signal.

Louisville should not be in the affected area. However, AFTER Friday November 28 rescan your digital box and see if you can get our signal.

Thanks

Dave Layne
Director - Broadcast Operations & Engineering
KCNC-TV


For me, the 11/15 changes seem to have created a marginal reception situation for my least sensitive tuner. I think atmosperic conditions may explain the shifts between good, weak, and no reception on that tuner.

I have heard that they plan to increase the input power to the antenna from 25KW to 40KW, which will bring them to their authorized 1000 KW ERP, during the work scheduled for Friday, which could extend into Saturday. Hopefully, that will return everyone in the viewing area to the the signal strength they had before 11/15, or better. I have also heard that they may, at times, switch to the backup antenna during that work, which may produce some unusal coverage.

I have heard that they plan to increase the input power to the antenna from 25KW to 40KW, which will bring them to their authorized 1000 KW ERP, during the work scheduled for Friday, which could extend into Saturday. Hopefully, that will return everyone in the viewing area to the the signal strength they had before 11/15, or better. I have also heard that they may, at times, switch to the backup antenna during that work, which may produce some unusal coverage.

Thanks, I was worried about Numb3rs Fri, but I just checked and there is no new episode this week. Those having trouble with 4-1 might want to check out 30-1 (5-1) from Cheyenne in the interim, I get it pretty easily.

KCNC has dropped in signal strength this morning. I am not able to get my receiver to lock on the station. I hope that the Friday increase in signal power will recover the power that has been lost since they realigned their transmitting antenna.

I would have to turn my antenna around to get the Cheyenne station.

Is there a listing of which stations are not a full power? I know that 7.1 and 9.1 and 12.1 are all moving back to VHF in February, but which other stations will be increasing power or moving antenna locations.

I'm going to buy an HDTV sometime in the next year and I have been disappointed in reading reviews on the sets that none of the reviews mention the OTA tuner. I would hate to get an HDTV and find that I could not receive all the stations that my Zenith DT901 picks up.

According to the FCC rules, as long as the analog signal stays current and at full power, the television stations can do any type of maintenance or adjustments to their digital signal (as well as turn it off without public notice), as long as they are ready to go full power on February 17.

I chatted with a longtime acquaintance yesterday, a television engineer from Nashville. He maintains a database website of all analog and digital television assignments, organized by channel number.

He commented regarding the Denver digital television stations and being familiar with the current power they are running......

"It's hard to tell. The only station with a license-to-cover is KDVR, licensed for 223kw/296m. They have a permit to increase power to 1000kw/317m and go non-directional.

Everyone else has a construction permit. I have no way of knowing whether those CPs are on the air. (except for calling the stations!) In particular, KMGH's only DTV record is for their post-transition operation on channel 7 -- if they're on right now (and I know they are) it must be with a Special Temporary Authority.

I suspect nobody is going to bother to take out a permanent license for their pre-transition operation at this point. We probably won't know through FCC circles until after the transition."

So much for acquiring any type of list of pre-transition power of the Denver channels.

KCNC has dropped in signal strength this morning. I am not able to get my receiver to lock on the station. I hope that the Friday increase in signal power will recover the power that has been lost since they realigned their transmitting antenna.

Check to see if they're back around 10:10 AM or so.

I can't believe KCNC isn't doing something when their signal just happens to drop out to the north from around 8:00 AM to around 10:10 AM. It's just too predictable and I can't think of anything that would be interfering with their signal just during those hours.

Everyone else has a construction permit. I have no way of knowing whether those CPs are on the air. (except for calling the stations!) In particular, KMGH's only DTV record is for their post-transition operation on channel 7 -- if they're on right now (and I know they are) it must be with a Special Temporary Authority.

I suspect nobody is going to bother to take out a permanent license for their pre-transition operation at this point. We probably won't know through FCC circles until after the transition."

So much for acquiring any type of list of pre-transition power of the Denver channels.

All stations with STAs have them filed with the FCC, so their power levels actually are public. My own website has them, straight from the FCC database. All the power levels are known.

What the rule says is that a station may operate at reduced power (or go off the air entirely) for less than 30 days without telling the FCC, in the event of equipment failure or adjusting things. For example, if you need to send a tower crew up for something for a day, you don't have to tell the FCC you're going to shut off the signal so as not to cook the crew.

- Trip

Sorry, haven't kept up with recent developments. So has KCNC-DT moved from atop RP to Lookout? Who is left still transmitting from RP?

Hi. 1st post.

I just hooked up a new outdoor antenna to my HDTV to try to get the locals OTA. I have the Winegard SS2000 outdoor antenna.

Anyway, it appears that the only HD channel I can't get is 31.1 (FOX). I'm located in downtown Denver, near the top of a high-rise building near the corner of Colfax and Speer.

Anyone know why I can't pick up 31.1? Or does anyone have similar issues?

Thanks!

Based on their DTV seminar in Ft. Collins a few weeks ago (and my imperfect memory), they eventually plan to have the current analog 6 in HD, plus two (!) sub-channels: Create and V-Me. They claim that with new variable bit rate encoders the quality will be better than they are getting now (using 1999-vintage encoders) with one HD + one sub-channel.

There will probably also be a period of time between now and Feb. 17 where they will only be able to do SD for the main channel while they get some new equipment on-line.

We're still waiting to hear what the plan will be to address northern Colorado OTA.

Mark

Thanks for the info. Looks like we wait and we see what we shall see.

All stations with STAs have them filed with the FCC, so their power levels actually are public. My own website has them, straight from the FCC database. All the power levels are known.

What the rule says is that a station may operate at reduced power (or go off the air entirely) for less than 30 days without telling the FCC, in the event of equipment failure or adjusting things. For example, if you need to send a tower crew up for something for a day, you don't have to tell the FCC you're going to shut off the signal so as not to cook the crew.

- Trip


That is true that the STA information is on file. What my friend (Doug Smith), who is the engineer on file for the FCC of two of Nashville's main television stations, was saying, is that in pre-transition, while you may have the STA information at your fingertips, what the current status of a station is may not be known without calling them and asking. IF they are testing and have even reduced their power from the licensed STA, the public wouldn't know unless someone from the station told you.

Its all just part of the transition and we have to live with it if we're watching the DTV channels rather than the analog, at least until transition day.

Sorry, haven't kept up with recent developments. So has KCNC-DT moved from atop RP to Lookout? Who is left still transmitting from RP?

Nobody's on RP anymore, except for maybe backup.

That is true that the STA information is on file. What my friend (Doug Smith), who is the engineer on file for the FCC of two of Nashville's main television stations, was saying, is that in pre-transition, while you may have the STA information at your fingertips, what the current status of a station is may not be known without calling them and asking. IF they are testing and have even reduced their power from the licensed STA, the public wouldn't know unless someone from the station told you.

Its all just part of the transition and we have to live with it if we're watching the DTV channels rather than the analog, at least until transition day.

Even licensed stations can do that for up to 30 days, analog or digital. That's nothing unique to STAs.

WDBJ-DT in my area lost one of their two tubes, and the station was operating at reduced power for about a week (this station has never had an STA), with no notification to the FCC required.

- Trip

Nobody's on RP anymore, except for maybe backup.Thanks. So I shouldn't be pointing my Yagi antenna at RP anymore but instead point it toward Lookout mountain? Fwiw, I'm in S. Lafayette at Hwy 287 & Dillon. I wonder if the reason I'm getting dropouts on 4-1, 7-1 and 9-1 is because I'm still pointed toward RP and I could get a better signal by pointing at LO? I realize I could just give it a try but I don't want to get up a ladder unless its really necessary.

Check to see if they're back around 10:10 AM or so.

I can't believe KCNC isn't doing something when their signal just happens to drop out to the north from around 8:00 AM to around 10:10 AM. It's just too predictable and I can't think of anything that would be interfering with their signal just during those hours.

Ok, I can confirm their signal dropping out a couple of times for a sec during the Titans/Lions. I still have a pretty strong signal when working though.

Anyone know why I can't pick up 31.1? Or does anyone have similar issues?

Thanks!

Not down here in HR. These are the channels I can pick up (although I haven't re-scanned in a while):
2-1, -2, KWGN
4-1, KCNC
6-1, -2, KRMA, V-me
7-1, KMGH
7-27, KZCO
9-1, -2, KUSA, W+ (which I thought was going away)
12-1, -2, -3, KDBI
14-1, KTFD
20-1, KTVD
25-1, KDEN
31-1, KDVR
40-1, KRMT
50-1, KCEC

I didn't think KDVR's frequency was as high as KCNC, meaning that if you get channel 4 (actually broadcasting on 35) you should get 31 (broadcasting on 32) - at least as far as distance is concerned, since higher frequencies fall off faster. Have you tried rotating your antenna just a little to the north? KDVR's antenna is just a little further north than the LCG antenna.

9-1, -2, KUSA, W+ (which I thought was going away)

WeatherPlus goes away completely 12/31, last I heard. Stations can drop it sooner, but some are either waiting til the end, or are waiting for equipment to replace it with something else.

- Trip

Thanks. So I shouldn't be pointing my Yagi antenna at RP anymore but instead point it toward Lookout mountain?

Yep, point at LM for 2,4,7,9,20,31, Mt. Morrison for 6 and Squaw for 12.

Yep, point at LM for 2,4,7,9,20,31, Mt. Morrison for 6 and Squaw for 12.Thanks. I'll get the ladder out. Hopefully the weather forecast is wrong and it won't snow here this weekend.

They must have turned the power up already on 4-1. I'm getting a 92% signal while watching LSU.

They must have turned the power up already on 4-1. I'm getting a 92% signal while watching LSU.

I noticed they went off the air around 12:45 and came back with a small but significant signal improvement. It was small for me, but I didn't notice a loss when they made changes to their antenna pattern on 11/15, so I figured the slight signal quality improvement along with the short outage probably indicated that they completed the power increase they had planned for today.

Engineering says they swear they aren't doing anything at the transmitter site or with the LCG antenna and haven't since two weeks ago, so I don't know what is going on.

They also confirmed they changed their antenna two weeks ago "to give more signal to the north" - and would be cranking up the power two Saturdays from now.

Something really #$@!ed up is going on with KCNC-DT; I can't imagine an antenna null would vary reception this much, so I'm wondering if it's a flaky connection somehow?

(They also said mine was "the first call" so anyone else with reception issues, give their engineering department a ring…)

Funny how I had no issues receiving them from RP all those years but now that they're on the LCG tower, this?

"to give more signal to the north"? That doesn't make sense as it is those to the north of them that have reported a loss or reduction of signal. I guess I'll just wait it out and see what happens next.

I also still can't figure out what is going on with KWGN-DT. My morning signal is down to 70 from 80 a month ago and I get frequent, complete loss of signal during the morning news.

Update: I've been checking KCNC-DT late this afternoon and I see a small increase in signal strength compared to the past few weeks. On my Dish ViP211 I got readings on average in the high 70s before the first change. Then it fell to the low 70s a few weeks ago. Now I'm seeing the mid-70s. I sure hope this isn't as good as it is going to get. My location puts me at a 31 degree azimuth (NNE) and 10 miles from them. If they were trying to improve their signal to the north, I think they adjusted in the wrong direction.

Is there a listing of which stations are not a full power? I know that 7.1 and 9.1 and 12.1 are all moving back to VHF in February, but which other stations will be increasing power or moving antenna locations.

I'm going to buy an HDTV sometime in the next year and I have been disappointed in reading reviews on the sets that none of the reviews mention the OTA tuner. I would hate to get an HDTV and find that I could not receive all the stations that my Zenith DT901 picks up.

I bought a Samsung LNT3253H last December and its on-board ATSC tuner performs about the same as my Zenith DTT900 tuner using the a split off the same attic antenna feed. I think you will experience a lot more impact on signal reception based on your antenna (type, gain, location, elevation, aim) than you will with the differences in the 5th and 6th generation ATSC tuners.

"to give more signal to the north"? That doesn't make sense as it is those to the north of them that have reported a loss or reduction of signal. I guess I'll just wait it out and see what happens next.

I also still can't figure out what is going on with KWGN-DT. My morning signal is down to 70 from 80 a month ago and I get frequent, complete loss of signal during the morning news.

Update: I've been checking KCNC-DT late this afternoon and I see a small increase in signal strength compared to the past few weeks. On my Dish ViP211 I got readings on average in the high 70s before the first change. Then it fell to the low 70s a few weeks ago. Now I'm seeing the mid-70s. I sure hope this isn't as good as it is going to get. My location puts me at a 31 degree azimuth (NNE) and 10 miles from them. If they were trying to improve their signal to the north, I think they adjusted in the wrong direction.
From what I heard, the area targeted for improvement was actually NNW. I think they were hoping to improve western Boulder. I don't think any improvement was intended for Due North or NNE. I got the impression that the final result was intended to be about neutral for Louisville, and north metro areas east of it. For me, I seem to about where I was before 11/15/2008, which was fine with my equipment.

I am receiving a stronger and more stable signal on 4-1 here in Castle Rock. The other LM stations also have higher readings than the past couple of weeks.

I just re-checked my KCNC-DT 4-1. My 7:47PM post was based on observations around 3PM, I think. When I looked a few minutes ago, the signal was weaker than this afternoon. My weakest receiver was showing occasional noise, and the signal strength was down from earlier.
I don't know what this means.

KCNC must still be adjusting their transmission. Yesterday after noon, they had a very strong signal here. This morning, they are much lower, but still receivable.

I checked KCNC-DT this morning and they are now averaging 80 on my Dish ViP211. That's about where they used to be a month or so ago. If that is where it stays, I'll be satisfied. Believe it or not, I need to be about 80 or higher to avoid interference from the microwave oven. Yes, I have all quad-shielded cable from the antenna to the tuner and all 3 GHz connectors where used. The microwave is fairly new, a higher class brand, built-in, but very large and powerful (power comparable to those microwaves in the 7-11s).

KCNC must still be adjusting their transmission. Yesterday after noon, they had a very strong signal here. This morning, they are much lower, but still receivable.

No complaints from Garden Acres(near FAA). Signal has been rock solid at 92%, up from the usual 75%.

Anybody watch the Who at Kilburn in 1977 concert tonight on KBDI 12 OTA? On both HD and analog cable, they have the gain set so high that it is all distorted and overloaded and sounds like crap. They said they remastered it from the tapes, but it is just awful. But when they paused for the pledge break, even the commentators voices were all distorted, so it is either their feed to the antenna or their feed to cable. Someone should call the station, but the concert is almost over, and the only number I know to call would be the pledge number. I'm going to post a comment on their web site.

I don't know what KCNC-DT did, but it's a complete failure here in Louisville.

Before they did whatever they did two weeks ago, their signal quality was in the "80s" as seen on my S3 TiVo (by comparison, KMGH-DT is 95, and KUSA-DT is 76; the scale is 0 - 100.)

Currently, KCNC-DT is coming in at a level of "60"; by comparison, KRMA-DT's signal from the Mt. Morrison ice bridge is coming in at "62."

So yes, with the "increase in power" KCNC-DT's signal is actually weaker than KRMA-DT.

For reference my antenna is pointed at Lookout Mtn, not at Mt. Morrison.

Also for reference, the other digital signals I can receive:

KWGN-DT: 99 (!)
KTFD-DT: 100 (!!)
KTVD-DT: 99 (!)
KDEN-DT: 64
KDVR-DT: 93
KRMT-DT: 76
KPXC-DT: 72

Or, with their "power increase" KCNC-DT is now my lowest level signal.

WTF?

Anybody watch the Who at Kilburn in 1977 concert tonight on KBDI 12 OTA? On both HD and analog cable, they have the gain set so high that it is all distorted and overloaded and sounds like crap. They said they remastered it from the tapes, but it is just awful. But when they paused for the pledge break, even the commentators voices were all distorted, so it is either their feed to the antenna or their feed to cable. Someone should call the station, but the concert is almost over, and the only number I know to call would be the pledge number. I'm going to post a comment on their web site.

This is pretty much par for the course for KBDI.

They continuously overdrive their audio or have something blown in their audio chain.

Their sound quality has always been rather poor on their NTSC channel, and I can't actually receive KBDI-DT.

I don't know what KCNC-DT did, but it's a complete failure here in Louisville.

Before they did whatever they did two weeks ago, their signal quality was in the "80s" as seen on my S3 TiVo (by comparison, KMGH-DT is 95, and KUSA-DT is 76; the scale is 0 - 100.)

Currently, KCNC-DT is coming in at a level of "60"; by comparison, KRMA-DT's signal from the Mt. Morrison ice bridge is coming in at "62."

So yes, with the "increase in power" KCNC-DT's signal is actually weaker than KRMA-DT.

For reference my antenna is pointed at Lookout Mtn, not at Mt. Morrison.

Also for reference, the other digital signals I can receive:

KWGN-DT: 99 (!)
KTFD-DT: 100 (!!)
KTVD-DT: 99 (!)
KDEN-DT: 64
KDVR-DT: 93
KRMT-DT: 76
KPXC-DT: 72

Or, with their "power increase" KCNC-DT is now my lowest level signal.

WTF?
KCNC has been un-receivable in the mornings. By noon, it's putting out a strong signal to me. As other stations signals do not vary much at all during the day, KCNC must be changing its power level throughout the day.

KCNC has been un-receivable in the mornings. By noon, it's putting out a strong signal to me. As other stations signals do not vary much at all during the day, KCNC must be changing its power level throughout the day.

They deny this, of course, but they've got to be doing something weird like that.

I mentioned previously that I see this from approximately 8:00 AM to 10:10 AM or so on many days - their signal will "suddenly" become receivable ten minutes into The Price Is Right.

This continues, apparently unabated as there's not even a hint KCNC-DT exists for me right now, 8:28 AM on 11/30.

I'm also here in Louisville, and I've watched KCNC change dramatically in the last 3 days. On Friday(I think) for the first time they were pegging the signal strength meter on my LG TV. Before that they were at about 50%. That lasted one day, now they are running about 35%, and my TV won't lock in on them, totally unwatchable. They've either got a serious problem with the antenna harnessing, or they are running at low power again. With the cutover in two months, you would think they would start considering their DTV signal a priority.

Regarding KCNC's signal strength, as a point of reference for those of you north of LM, it is now my strongest signal. On all of my receivers, the signal strength ranges from 96-100. I estimate that, depending on the receiver, it is 5-10 points higher than it used to be.

An hour ago all LM stations were 85-90 for me on D* STB's. Now they are 45-50 with 4-1 showing 0.

KCNC & KTVD are at 100% OTA signal strength here in Centennial @ C470 & Holly. The other Lookout Mountain stations are between 70% to 90%. Only KCNC & KTVD are at 100% for me. Samsung SIR-T451 OTA tuner. It's been that way for over a week.

I live in west Arvada in an area that is in a shadow of the north table mesa, no line of site signals from Lookout Mtn. I have had a challenge as I wanted signals from the north & south of my location without using a rotor.
I now receive most of what I want but I installed all UHF antennas and lost chnl 39 (RTN Network) which is KQCK-DT Chnl 11. My antenna system design did not include a VHF antenna, and now I am thinking about Going after DTV chnl 11.

Does anyone get this digital channel in the Arvada area?

I now receive most of what I want but I installed all UHF antennas and lost chnl 39 (RTN Network) which is KQCK-DT Chnl 11. My antenna system design did not include a VHF antenna, and now I am thinking about Going after DTV chnl 11.

I assume that you lost KQDK-CA (39) because you angled your antenna north; otherwise, I'm not sure why you would have lost it since I watch it pretty much every day.

Unfortunately, KQCK-DT (11) has been extremely unreliable for the past several months. It went off the air in late August or early September I think and was out for about 2 1/2 months. It came back a few weeks ago, but has been out again for the past week or so. Consequently, you might want to wait until spring before making any major changes to accomodate it.

By the way, you said that you installed all UHF antennas. You do realize that several channels will be returning to VHF in February including KMGH-DT (7), KUSA-DT (9), and KBDI-DT (13).

Hi, I live in West Arvada 60th and Easley road. I currently receive ION (59) with my simple rabbit ears. Interestingly I am not able to receive KDEN in Longmont despite the same compass heading and similar distance. North table mountain is immediately to my south west, preventing any line of sight to lookout. Can anyone recommend an attic mounted antenna setup ?

I live in west Arvada in an area that is in a shadow of the north table mesa, no line of site signals from Lookout Mtn. I have had a challenge as I wanted signals from the north & south of my location without using a rotor.
I now receive most of what I want but I installed all UHF antennas and lost chnl 39 (RTN Network) which is KQCK-DT Chnl 11. My antenna system design did not include a VHF antenna, and now I am thinking about Going after DTV chnl 11.

Does anyone get this digital channel in the Arvada area?

KQCK has been off the air since 11/19, so you may be able to get it, you just can't tell right now. I'll post when it comes back online so you can check again. Your CM4228, even though it is UHF only, can do a reasonable job with high VHF. So I would definitely wait to check out your current setup once KQCK comes back, before contemplating buying anything else.

I think KCNC reaimed their antenna to the south, or at least have the Louisville area in a null for the transmitter.

Tonight I can receive them, but their signal level is still below what KRMA-DT is, which itself is way down from most of the LCG stations.

This time, using the signal level on my Sony HDTV, KWGN-DT, KMGH-DT and KDVR-DT all nearly peg the signal level meter at 98 or 99/100, KUSA-DT is about 60/100, KRMA-DT is about 32/100 and KCNC-DT at a whopping 27/100.

For reference I received a much higher signal than that from them when they were atop RP, and prior to their antenna shenanigans they were always around 83/100, not pegging my signal meter but they always came in significantly stronger than KUSA-DT.

I'll call them tomorrow but somehow I don't think they'll care given the "it should be booming in, there must be interference in your area" response I got from them last Wednesday. :(

Meanwhile, I guess I'll have to set the TiVo to record CSI from 4 analog for now. :( :(

Oh, and to stick with other recent posts, I've never seen even a hint of KQCK-DT in Louisville but KQDK-CA comes in fuzzy but viewable.

My KCNC-DT signal on my Dish ViP211 dropped back down into the mid-70s during the game today. I don't know what it was otherwise as I haven't been watching them today other than for the Broncos. I just checked them on my Zenith DTT900 and I'm at a bit over 80% on the bar, but the signal jumps up and down very rapidly. I used to get 4-1 at a steady max on the Zenith.

I guess I'm the only one encountering the weak signal and drop outs on KWGN-DT. I can barely average 70 on my Dish ViP211 and get frequent drop outs, especially during the morning news. My Samsung LCD (year old) is only showing 3 out of 10 bars, but encounters few drop outs. My Zenith DTT900 is at about 3/4 strength (again KRMA-DT is higher) and doesn't encounter drop outs, but all other locals are basically at max on this ATSC tuner. Other than the KCNC weirdness, KWGN-DT is the only OTA DTV channel I'm really having trouble with. I actually have a more steady signal from KRMA-DT. I'm in West Arvada, about 68th and Sims.

In Louisville you can pick up KWGN-DT with a coat hanger.

As mentioned above, KWGN-DT is one of my strongest signals, maxing out my receivers at 99/100 or so.

I live in west Arvada in an area that is in a shadow of the north table mesa, no line of site signals from Lookout Mtn. I have had a challenge as I wanted signals from the north & south of my location without using a rotor.
I now receive most of what I want but I installed all UHF antennas and lost chnl 39 (RTN Network) which is KQCK-DT Chnl 11. My antenna system design did not include a VHF antenna, and now I am thinking about Going after DTV chnl 11.

Does anyone get this digital channel in the Arvada area?

I assume that you lost KQDK-CA (39) because you angled your antenna north; otherwise, I'm not sure why you would have lost it since I watch it pretty much every day.

...

By the way, you said that you installed all UHF antennas. You do realize that several channels will be returning to VHF in February including KMGH-DT (7), KUSA-DT (9), and KBDI-DT (13).

After looking at your picture again and reading Rick313's comments, I realized a few things. First, I mistook one of your antenna's for a Channel Master 4228. I now realize that it is an Antennas Direct DB-8 (and the other is an Antennas Direct XG-91). Studying the picture it looks like you have aimed one to the north and the other to the south, although without a reference point, I can't tell which one is pointed in which direction. Neither of those antenna's have a reasonable high VHF response, so you may have trouble getting KMGH, KUSA and KBDI after February 17th. You almost certainly won't be able to get KQCK from Fort Collins on Channel 11. Also, if you were seeing RTN on Channel 39 then Rick313 is right in saying that you were getting KQDK-CA, not KQCK-DT, assuming you were getting RTN as an analog service. KQCK (when it is on the air) doesn't send the required PSIP to remap the channel (it should show as channel 33), so you would most likely see it displayed as channel 11 (its RF channel). If you were getting KQDK-CA before then you probably lost it for one of two reasons:

1) You turned the antenna with better reception for Channel 39 towards the north, or

2) You are getting reduced levels for Channel 39 due to the way you are combining the outputs of the two antennas.

Are you combining the output from both antennas? With each antenna pointed in different directions you could be adding out of phase signals for the various channels, which may decrease the level of some of your channels, i.e. giving you worse reception than you would get from each antenna individually. It might work for you as long as the resulting signal is acceptable for the channels you want to receive (i.e. trading better signal level for a larger selection of channels). Other solutions would involve an antenna switch, multiple tuners, or channel specific filters (which would work in only limited cases).

It's hard to tell whether or not you are going to have a problem with VHF reception come February 17th. Have you checked the signal levels for KMGH and KUSA's analog service? If you can't get them (or they are very snowy) then you almost certainly won't be able to get them in February. If you are pointing the DB-8 towards Lookout Mountain your easiest solution might be to replace it with the new version of the Channel Master 4228. However, I would wait until people have gotten the new version and tested it, since it is now made in China and may not live up to the advertising. But it should fit in the same location on your mast (it's wider) and should have good enough high VHF reception (it's claimed to be better than the old version, which seems to be working very well for me).

I would also note that it appears that your two antenna's are probably stacked vertically too close to each other to avoid coupling. They should be at least 50 inches apart in height. I'm not sure if that measurement should be from the top of the XG-91's reflector or not.

I don't know what KCNC-DT did, but it's a complete failure here in Louisville.

Before they did whatever they did two weeks ago, their signal quality was in the "80s" as seen on my S3 TiVo (by comparison, KMGH-DT is 95, and KUSA-DT is 76; the scale is 0 - 100.)

Currently, KCNC-DT is coming in at a level of "60"; by comparison, KRMA-DT's signal from the Mt. Morrison ice bridge is coming in at "62."

So yes, with the "increase in power" KCNC-DT's signal is actually weaker than KRMA-DT.

For reference my antenna is pointed at Lookout Mtn, not at Mt. Morrison.

Also for reference, the other digital signals I can receive:

KWGN-DT: 99 (!)
KTFD-DT: 100 (!!)
KTVD-DT: 99 (!)
KDEN-DT: 64
KDVR-DT: 93
KRMT-DT: 76
KPXC-DT: 72

Or, with their "power increase" KCNC-DT is now my lowest level signal.

WTF?

Hmmm, I'm finally picking up both KCNC-DT and KMGH-DT at the same time. I still can't get a strong enough signal to lock on KWGN and zip for KBDI. I'm pointed towards LOM.

Does anyone know if the digital TV Guide On Screen is present in the KCNC-DT signal yet?

I have a DTV Pal Plus box hooked to a Panasonic DVR with TVGOS and am hoping that they're transmitting since Echostar is headquartered in Denver metro and the Pal Menu screenshots are all of Denver TV channels. I've also seen a couple of post references to testing in Denver.
I just set up the Pal in TV Guide mode this morning but am wondering if I am on a fool's errand at the moment:-)

I guess I'm the only one encountering the weak signal and drop outs on KWGN-DT.

You're not the only one. KWGN-DT has always been very reliable for me, but during the past week or so, I've noticed the signal quality deteriorating. Perhaps the changes that KCNC made somehow affected KWGN.

Just got off the phone with KCNC again, they said they're now the strongest signal on the mountain.

The bouncing "No Signal" box for 4-1 on my TV at the moment and the incredibly low level on the signal meter the rest of the day would disagree.

My personal theory at this point is there's got to be a null in their transmitter pattern pointed right at me and a few others here, as they said their signal can now be picked up quite well as far north as Horsetooth Reservoir and throughout Ft. Collins.

This, coupled with some type of device that's interfering with their signal between roughly 8 and 10 AM is causing them to go away completely; prior to realigning their antenna their signal was strong enough to blast through the interference, and it's not any more. (However, I don't know what could would interfere in such a way to knock them out for several Louisville folks and at least one Longmont person.)

However until they realign their antenna again, their signal will remain weak enough that this is going to happen over and over again and we'll probably just have to deal unless they can figure it out or February arrives and they switch frequencies.

As far as KWGN-DT goes, I played with a set of rabbit ears and my Zenith converter box yesterday and there's almost no direction I can point my antenna where I get less than about a 70% signal from them, and most of the time it's full blast-out-of-the-box full scale.

Since KWGN-DT isn't on the LCG tower, could there be something between you and 2's tower that might be causing some here to have issues?