Just got off the phone with KCNC again, they said they're now the strongest signal on the mountain.

The bouncing "No Signal" box for 4-1 on my TV at the moment and the incredibly low level on the signal meter the rest of the day would disagree.

My personal theory at this point is there's got to be a null in their transmitter pattern pointed right at me and a few others here, as they said their signal can now be picked up quite well as far north as Horsetooth Reservoir and throughout Ft. Collins.

This, coupled with some type of device that's interfering with their signal between roughly 8 and 10 AM is causing them to go away completely; prior to realigning their antenna their signal was strong enough to blast through the interference, and it's not any more. (However, I don't know what could would interfere in such a way to knock them out for several Louisville folks and at least one Longmont person.)

However until they realign their antenna again, their signal will remain weak enough that this is going to happen over and over again and we'll probably just have to deal unless they can figure it out or February arrives and they switch frequencies.

As far as KWGN-DT goes, I played with a set of rabbit ears and my Zenith converter box yesterday and there's almost no direction I can point my antenna where I get less than about a 70% signal from them, and most of the time it's full blast-out-of-the-box full scale.

Since KWGN-DT isn't on the LCG tower, could there be something between you and 2's tower that might be causing some here to have issues?

This morning I'm getting KCNC-DT in the low to mid-80s on my Dish ViP211. That equals the highest readings I've ever seen for that channel since they moved to LOM. I only hope I'm at 80 or above when they stop screwing around with their antenna.

Regarding KWGN, I'm now wondering if the LCG LOM tower is affecting my KWGN-DT reception (they are on the exact same azimuth from my location). Seems like every time one of the LCG tower channels ups power or makes an adjustment, my KWGN-DT reception gets worse. Then again, it could just be coincidence. I've decided that I'm not going to mess with my antenna and pre-amp system until 2/18/09, since things just seem to keep changing and, as I understand it, KWGN-DT will be broadcasting from a higher elevation come 2/18/09.

KWGN has a permit to boost height but I doubt it will change the day after the transition. I think they have to remove their old analog channel 2 antenna in order to put up their higher antenna, though don't quote me on that. And I doubt anyone wants to be up on the tower trying swap antennas on top of a mountain in February. :D

- Trip

This morning I'm getting KCNC-DT in the low to mid-80s on my Dish ViP211. That equals the highest readings I've ever seen for that channel since they moved to LOM. I only hope I'm at 80 or above when they stop screwing around with their antenna.

I think it's pretty clear that the new transmitter configuration has resulted in a null to the extreme NNE (according to antennaweb.org, Lookout is at a 185° compass heading from my house.)

Since Arvada is pretty close to due East or just slightly NE of Lookout, you see increased signal strength.

Only a transmitter null could easily explain such a drastic drop in signal strength for me and other select viewers in the Louisville and Longmont areas; KCNC has told me they do have some viewers in Louisville reporting signal strengths like you report and that I, literally, am the only person in any location that has called to complain of lower signal strengths since 11/18 and that isn't seeing huge improvement in signal levels since they increased their power over the weekend.

BTW, now, as of 11:00 AM, KCNC-DT's signal is showing as 43/100 (!), or roughly half way in-between KRMA-DT and KUSA-DT in strength.

I really wish I knew what was going on…

I think it's pretty clear that the new transmitter configuration has resulted in a null to the extreme NNE (according to antennaweb.org, Lookout is at a 185° compass heading from my house.)

Since Arvada is pretty close to due East or just slightly NE of Lookout, you see increased signal strength.

Only a transmitter null could easily explain such a drastic drop in signal strength for me and other select viewers in the Louisville and Longmont areas; KCNC has told me they do have some viewers in Louisville reporting signal strengths like you report and that I, literally, am the only person in any location that has called to complain of lower signal strengths since 11/18 and that isn't seeing huge improvement in signal levels since they increased their power over the weekend.

BTW, now, as of 11:00 AM, KCNC-DT's signal is showing as 43/100 (!), or roughly half way in-between KRMA-DT and KUSA-DT in strength.

I really wish I knew what was going on…

I've never been able to get a KWGN-DT - I see the signal just too low to lock.
KCNC-DT is out again. I can see the signal but no lock, and when it does lock it's so pixelated it's pointless. Wish I knew what the deal was.

I think it's pretty clear that the new transmitter configuration has resulted in a null to the extreme NNE (according to antennaweb.org, Lookout is at a 185° compass heading from my house.)

Since Arvada is pretty close to due East or just slightly NE of Lookout, you see increased signal strength.

Only a transmitter null could easily explain such a drastic drop in signal strength for me and other select viewers in the Louisville and Longmont areas; KCNC has told me they do have some viewers in Louisville reporting signal strengths like you report and that I, literally, am the only person in any location that has called to complain of lower signal strengths since 11/18 and that isn't seeing huge improvement in signal levels since they increased their power over the weekend.

BTW, now, as of 11:00 AM, KCNC-DT's signal is showing as 43/100 (!), or roughly half way in-between KRMA-DT and KUSA-DT in strength.

I really wish I knew what was going on…

Is there a building or other reflector surface nearby that could be providing a weak reflected signal to interfere with your main signal?

I am located at 4 degrees east of true north 63 miles from LOM with a ridge that protrudes 400+ feet into my line of sight 13 miles south from my house. 174 degrees magnetic from my location to LOM according to TV Fool.

I have a Rooftop Winegard HD9095P UHF Yagi antenna with a Winegard AP-8275 Pre-amp feeding into a Zenith DTT900 converter box with about 30 ft of RG-6 from the mast mounted pre-amp to a splitter that feeds the DTT900 off one leg and other equipment off the other.

I believe that I am getting a weak reflected KCNC signal that is interfering with the main KCNC signal (multi-path??) which shuts KCNC down to a very weak effective signal on the Zenith box (no sound or video). I have a 0 - 20 db variable attenuator (tuned supposedly to 0) that I inserted into the line to the Zenith box and KCNC is now my 2nd strongest signal (75%) behind KWGN Channel 2. No other signal appears to be affected by the attenuator unless I turn it up and then the other stations lose at least half their respective strengths. Increasing attenuation doesn't seem to get more signal strength from KCNC.

KUSA (9) is my weakest signal and of course, KRMA is non-existant.
KBDI has never been receivable here since there are several peaks in the LOS.

It looks like this is going to get interesting after 2/17/09.

This is pretty much par for the course for KBDI.

They continuously overdrive their audio or have something blown in their audio chain.

Their sound quality has always been rather poor on their NTSC channel, and I can't actually receive KBDI-DT.

For the longest time, I didn't even realize they were broadcasting in HD since most of the time, it is not the same program as analog. It is usually Create or some other program, so I thought it was a national PBS feed or something. Why don't they simulcast on HD and analog?

KCNC has told me they do have some viewers in Louisville reporting signal strengths like you report and that I, literally, am the only person in any location that has called to complain of lower signal strengths since 11/18 and that isn't seeing huge improvement in signal levels since they increased their power over the weekend.

KCNC-DT is out again. I can see the signal but no lock, and when it does lock it's so pixelated it's pointless. Wish I knew what the deal was.

KCNC has been un-receivable in the mornings. By noon, it's putting out a strong signal to me. As other stations signals do not vary much at all during the day, KCNC must be changing its power level throughout the day.

I'm also here in Louisville, and I've watched KCNC change dramatically in the last 3 days. On Friday(I think) for the first time they were pegging the signal strength meter on my LG TV. Before that they were at about 50%. That lasted one day, now they are running about 35%, and my TV won't lock in on them, totally unwatchable. They've either got a serious problem with the antenna harnessing, or they are running at low power again.

Sounds like more people need to vent to KCNC directly, not just on this forum.

KCNC-DT's signal fell back into the mid-70s late this morning and has been there ever since. While the strong winds may be a part of the problem (most of the other DTV channels are also down a few points), I'm going to strictly monitor their signal strength during prime time and Bronco games, as that is what is really important to me. I agree that it does appear that KCNC-DT is varying something in their signal output during the course of the 24 hour day (power savings?).

Once I get a clear reading on what KCNC-DT's prime time signal strength is under good weather conditions, I'll evaluate whether or not I should contact them and complain.

Sounds like more people need to vent to KCNC directly, not just on this forum.

I talked to Engineering at KCNC at about 11AM today (12/1/08). The person I talked to does monitor this forum, when he can, for comments about KCNC, although he feels it best for him not to post.

I pointed out that the numbers I get with a Dish TR40 connected to a Channel Master CM3010 Stealth Antenna mounted at the top of a second floor closet are very similar to the numbers posted by kucharsk. My house has a walkout basement facing south toward the Tamarisk open space, so that antenna is about 25 ft above ground level overlooking at least 300 feet of open terrain.
I don't have anything with a digital readout on my primary antenna in the attic, which has a CM7777 preamp connected to it.

I shared my experience that I had a very strong signal from KCNC on Friday at 3PM and Saturday at Noon. On Saturday, at Noon, the signal was in the mid to upper 90s, which is like KWGN(2-1), which is my strongest signal. The signal was in the low to mid 70s Friday at 10PM, Saturday at 10PM, and for several checks on Sunday and today.

He said they completed, what had been intended to be the final configuration of the transmitter, on Saturday. They do have 2 antennas and 2 transmitters which can be connected in any combination, and he was not sure what combinations we may have experienced at various times Friday and Saturday.

He did indicate that they have increased the percent of total power aimed north and south, which reduced the percentage aimed east, but the increase in total power supplied to the antenna should leave the east about the same as it was.

He felt quite confident that the signal being broadcast toward Louisville has been increased. I think he said communities north of us have improved reception. He needs more data to to understand, what appears to be a localized problem. He hopes to have someone out to the Louisville area by the end of the week with the necessary equipment to take some readings. I think he suspects a multi-path signal problem. The stronger signal to the north may be bouncing off a front range peak and creating interference for some of us. If signal is boucing off a peak, changing conditions on the peak, such as snow, could change the reflected signal.

I suggested that he could get good line of sight from ground level at Harper Lake. Actually, the South parking lot at Washington and McCaslin is blocked by the houses on the South side of Washington, but there is LOS to the towers from the Davidson Mesa Trail-head parking lot on the other side of McCaslin. There is also LOS from the North end of Harper Lake which can be accessed off of Alder St. If there was an address for the North entrance, I think it would be about 940 Alder.

I told him I was just a few blocks east of Harper Lake, and that I thought kucharsk is a few blocks northeast of it.

My impression is that he is very knowledgeable, and hopes to be able to help us out.

I
I shared my experience that I had a very strong signal from KCNC on Friday at 3PM and Saturday at Noon. On Saturday, at Noon, the signal was in the mid to upper 90s, which is like KWGN(2-1), which is my strongest signal. The signal was in the low to mid 70s Friday at 10PM, Saturday at 10PM, and for several checks on Sunday and today.

He said they completed, what had been intended to be the final configuration of the transmitter, on Saturday. They do have 2 antennas and 2 transmitters which can be connected in any combination, and he was not sure what combinations we may have experienced at various times Friday and Saturday.

He did indicate that they have increased the percent of total power aimed north and south, which reduced the percentage aimed east, but the increase in total power supplied to the antenna should leave the east about the same as it was.


Well, I'm not sure the signal is improved to the north either, but I am fairly sure that what was good for Louisville was good for the north.

I run some DTV scanning software most of the time when I am not recording TV programs. The software repeats the following 2 steps:

1) It quickly scans through all of the RF channels to see which channels have a DTV signal. This takes about 2 minutes.

2) It then chooses one of the channels that have a signal and does a more in depth scan, checking for signal quality and PSIP data changes. Normally it scans each on air channel consecutively, unless a new channel was found during step 1, in which case that channel is immediately scanned. This step takes about 2 minutes (it takes 3000 samples), and it takes about 1 hour to get through all the on air channels (typically 16 on air channels, and it takes 4 minutes total for steps 1 and 2). At the end of the 2 minute in depth scan it reports the average signal strength and signal quality over the 3000 samples it took.

Now, for KCNC I can't observe changes in signal strength, because my antenna preamp produces a signal level that my HDHomeRun reports as 100. It doesn't report levels above 100, but it also is fairly tolerant of strong signals, so I don't see any signal overload problems.

However, I do see differences in "Signal Quality", which actually corresponds to what most tuners report when they only have one meter. I have not ever had any problems receiving KCNC, but I have a CM4228 outside on the roof, and I don't have any LOS obstructions other than a tree between here and Lookout Mountain. The difference in signal quality I observed may not seem significant, but note that I am averaging 3000 samples over a 2 minute period, and my results are fairly consistant.

Up until Friday I had never seen an average signal quality above 97.8 (averages over the previous week were in the range of 96.5 to 97.8). This is my 3rd best signal, behind KTFD (averages range from 99.7-99.8) and KTVD (averages range from 97.0-98.8). Note also that I did not see a reduction in signal quality after 11/15 when KCNC changed their antenna pattern.

On Friday (11/28) my scanning software noticed KCNC had left the air at around 12:44 (within 4 minutes before that). It did a 2 minute in depth scan of another channel, and then noticed KCNC was back (note that all I know is that it was off the air for at least 10 seconds during that period). Because KCNC had just returned to the air, an in depth scan was done and the signal quality average was 99.8. My guess is that this is when they first increased the power of their transmitter. I continued to see averages of 99.8 or 99.9 until about 4:30 pm, when I stopped running the scanner for a while. When I started it back up at around 8 pm the average signal quality was back down to 97.3 and readings continued in the 96.5-97.8 range until Saturday morning. On Saturday, the last reading I got in the "low" range was at 8:35 AM. The average at 9:34 was 99.6, at 10:34 it was 99.8 and it remained high until 6:45 pm, and one average was actually 100.0 at 4:10 pm (not all readings were 100, but to one decimal place it rounded to 100). The next reading after 6:45 pm was at 7:42 pm, where the average was 97.0. The average signal quality has remained in the lower range since then.

So, I realize the signal quality difference may not have been much for me, but the times when they were in the 99-100 range correlated well with the times that other people noticed significant improvements in KCNC's signal level. I just wanted to give detailed data as far as times were concerned, since perhaps the engineers at KCNC might have a record of what they did and when they did it. I also wanted to share my observation that when the signal was best for me here in Fort Collins it was also best for those in Louisville who are having issues; so I am not sure their argument that the north is benefiting at the expense of areas like Louisville is accurate. I obviously can't speak for other areas that they may have been tuning for, e.g. Boulder.

I told him I was just a few blocks east of Harper Lake, and that I thought kucharsk is a few blocks northeast of it.

My impression is that he is very knowledgeable, and hopes to be able to help us out.

I gave him my address and suggested their signal truck give me a visit, as I can make out the towers on Lookout from my front porch. :-)

I told him I was just a few blocks east of Harper Lake, and that I thought kucharsk is a few blocks northeast of it.

I'm more like about 1/2 mile southeast of Louisville Reservoir.

We'll see what happens with them later this morning.

I'm in Longmont near 17th and Alpine. Last night (12/1/08) just before 9:00 I checked KCNC-DT signal strength. Zero, zip, nada! At the same time KUSA was breaking up pretty bad but had a reading of 56. My antenna is in the attic over the garage. Before mid-November I picked up KCNC without a hitch; now it's totally gone.

I'm in Longmont near 17th and Alpine. Last night (12/1/08) just before 9:00 I checked KCNC-DT signal strength. Zero, zip, nada! At the same time KUSA was breaking up pretty bad but had a reading of 56. My antenna is in the attic over the garage. Before mid-November I picked up KCNC without a hitch; now it's totally gone.

I'm in South Boulder with a roof top antenna that came with the house- east of Broadway, north of Table Mesa. KCNC comes and goes. Typically KUSA iand KMGH s pretty solid. I've never gotten enough signal to pull in KWGN over digital. I definitely do NOT have a LOS to LOM - LOL!

Today's Post describes KRMA's signal problems, dosen't sound hopeful for those up north.

http://www.denverpost.com/television/ci_11114796

The implication from that article is that KRMA plans to switch from Mt. Morrison to Lookout - or did I read it wrong? That's the first I think I've heard of that from an official source.

The implication from that article is that KRMA plans to switch from Mt. Morrison to Lookout - or did I read it wrong? That's the first I think I've heard of that from an official source.
I read the article and didn't see any such implications.

I read the article and didn't see any such implications.

I thought Channel 20's tower was on Lookout, not Morrison.

RMPBS hopes to take over Channel 20's tower, available after the FCC digital transition deadline, Feb. 17.

I thought Channel 20's tower was on Lookout, not Morrison.
So it is. I missed that sentence when I read the article.

But why do they need to take over Channel 20's tower. Why not "take over" their own tower currently used for analog 6?

I thought Channel 20's tower was on Lookout, not Morrison.

So it is. I missed that sentence when I read the article.

But why do they need to take over Channel 20's tower. Why not "take over" their own tower currently used for analog 6?

The Channel 20 digital transmitter is on Lookout. They are part of LCG and broadcast their digital signal on UHF 19 from the shared LCG tower.

The channel 20 analog tower is on Mt Morrison. It is the tower that has the KRMA-DT antenna on the Ice Bridge. KRMA digital is on UHF 18. If they could place their antenna at the top of the current analog 20 tower or use the current analog 20 antenna(I have no idea if that is possible) they should have great coverage of the problem area. The Spanish Language digital station, KTFD, on 14-1 (UHF 15) is about half way up that tower and comes booming in to Louisville.

As I had mentioned a while ago, I have a friend up in Brook Forest (Evergreen, with no LOS to anything) who gets 14-1 nice and clear (but no whiff of 6-1). I'll have to see if he's seen any change in KCNC recently, too.

The channel 20 analog tower is on Mt Morrison. It is the tower that has the KRMA-DT antenna on the Ice Bridge. KRMA digital is on UHF 18.
Thanks for the correction, I didn't realize that analog KTVD was on Mt. Morrison or that it was the same tower where the current ice bridge transmitter is.

I'm surprised KRMA doesn't lease a subchannel from KTFD-DT 14 for a while, not like they're using that bandwidth.

- Trip

Yes, but the most important part of the article:

The station is trying to switch to a higher broadcast tower, but there have been a number of glitches and delays. Not to mention lawsuits and an appeal filed Monday by a community group, CARE (Canyon Area Residents for the Environment, representing residents in the Lookout Mountain area in Jefferson County who cite health concerns from the level of broadcast frequencies from the tower.)

So it's KRMA's own fault for dropping out of LCG or they'd be up and booming from Lookout by now.

http://www.denverpost.com/television/ci_11114796

Is it just me and everyone else understands why Adele Arakawa is the highest paid ($500K/yr) Denver anchor? I mean, yes she is competent, but no more so than the veteran female anchors on other stations. She sure doesn't seem like an audience draw to me, unlike Kathy Sabine who has a following, both male and female. I expect a slow ratings decline for 9News with the dismissal of Kendrick.

Is it just me and everyone else understands why Adele Arakawa is the highest paid ($500K/yr) Denver anchor? I mean, yes she is competent, but no more so than the veteran female anchors on other stations. She sure doesn't seem like an audience draw to me, unlike Kathy Sabine who has a following, both male and female. I expect a slow ratings decline for 9News with the dismissal of Kendrick.

I don't get it either. Bob Kendrick was one of my favorite anchors. Like you said, Adele is okay, but I don't know why she would rate the highest paycheck. Oh well, more often than not, I end up watching KWGN anyway. It's not HD, but at least it's only half an hour.

So it's KRMA's own fault for dropping out of LCG or they'd be up and booming from Lookout by now.

They are just brain dead at this point. They STILL haven't figured out that Morrison equates to lawsuits and a pathetic signal.

Well, I'm not sure the signal is improved to the north either, but I am fairly sure that what was good for Louisville was good for the north.


It looks like KCNC may have made some more changes today. If the engineer wants a visual representation of what the signals have looked like, I've attached two of my monitoring graphs. The first one is of today, which shows the signal going back to normal. The second graph is of the past month, which shows when they first made the change, the next two peaks are the Friday and Saturday periods when they were making changes, and of course, the final peak is today's change. These readings are all taken from southern Longmont.

Today's change:
http://www.bearhunter.com/kcnc_today.jpg

Past month:
http://www.bearhunter.com/kcnc_past_month.jpg

The numbers at the bottom are the hour, and yeah, I still haven't changed the monthly graphs to show days instead of the hours yet.

It looks like KCNC may have made some more changes today. If the engineer wants a visual representation of what the signals have looked like, I've attached two of my monitoring graphs. The first one is of today, which shows the signal going back to normal. The second graph is of the past month, which shows when they first made the change, the next two peaks are the Friday and Saturday periods when they were making changes, and of course, the final peak is today's change. These readings are all taken from southern Longmont.


Yes, I see improvements that correlate with your graph. Not quite as good as those two peaks last Friday and Saturday, but better than what they have been doing. How about some reports from people who are having real problems with KCNC?

Whatever KCNC did, they were off the air (to me) until around 10:10 AM again, which actually corresponds nicely to your graph.

I also now see a signal strength of 96/100 from them - higher than KMGH-DT!!

This is the kind of signal I used to see from them prior to 11/18.

I'm going to have to call and find out what they did.

Whatever KCNC did, they were off the air (to me) until around 10:10 AM again, which actually corresponds nicely to your graph.

I also now see a signal strength of 96/100 from them - higher than KMGH-DT!!

This is the kind of signal I used to see from them prior to 11/18.

I'm going to have to call and find out what they did.

What a difference a day makes! They were back up for me last night at about 9:15 at 96 also.

Today's change:
http://www.bearhunter.com/kcnc_today.jpg


Might this be attributed to some sort of signal refraction at a boundary between air at different temperature as the signal travels from way up there on the mountain to ground level below. The signal strength abruptly changes at about the time when the sun begins to heat the air above the ground.

--- CHAS

Might this be attributed to some sort of signal refraction at a boundary between air at different temperature as the signal travels from way up there on the mountain to ground level below. The signal strength abruptly changes at about the time when the sun begins to heat the air above the ground.

Chas, I have seen this show up in my graphs on weaker signals. However, it shows up as a more gradual slope than a sudden jump. Generally, it isn't seen in my graphs on a strong signal, since the majority of the signal would still get through the boundary (it would show up as a 2 to 3 percent change, which would be hardly noticeable on my graph).

bjcatlin:

Those are beautiful graphs. How did you go about making them? I'd be interested in doing that in my area for one or two of the local stations.

- Trip

Yup, I just checked KCNC-D and they've gone from a barely watchable 40 to a rock solid 95 here in Louisville. I'm hoping that the change is due a change they made at Lookout, rather than some odd atmospherics.

Chas, I have seen this show up in my graphs on weaker signals. However, it shows up as a more gradual slope than a sudden jump. Generally, it isn't seen in my graphs on a strong signal, since the majority of the signal would still get through the boundary (it would show up as a 2 to 3 percent change, which would be hardly noticeable on my graph).

It was just a thought, maybe something akin to total reflection mirages of visible optical phenomena.

I bought a DTV for my viewing aboard my sailboat and have witnessed signal extinctions from the Baltimore TV tower about 20 miles away across the Chesapeake bay. On a clear night I can see the tower lights. :confused:

I'd be curious to see a signal measurement for the station's analog channel.

--- CHAS

My 3 year old Digital Stream 3150+ tuner seems to be dying (intermittent periodic dropouts and occasionally shuts off).

Any comments on which tuner to get for someone in Louisville who is trying to pull in the hard to get KRMA and even harder to get KBPI signal?
The Samsung DTB-H260F and Winegrad RC-1010 seem to be the newest (or least old). Any comments on either one?


On a related note: I got a quite watchable KRMA signal in the 60s on monday night (or was it Sunday) for a few hours. The next day it was back in the 40s as usual (sometimes watchable if you get the antenna just right).

I got a quite watchable KRMA signal in the 60s on monday night (or was it Sunday) for a few hours.
I saw a few minutes of the Celtic Woman concert last night. Original HD material letterboxed inside an SD frame. Ugh.

I guess high-definition PBS in Denver is history now.

Unfortunately, I'vee seen this a lot on both KRMA (which drops out in the evening and overcast days) as well as KBDI. :(

I saw a few minutes of the Celtic Woman concert last night. Original HD material letterboxed inside an SD frame. Ugh.

I guess high-definition PBS in Denver is history now.

Maybe not:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=15205815#post15205815

I have been reading through large portions of this thread and am not finding the answers I am looking for. Hoping someone can help me out. If this has been addresses elsewhere, please show me the way!

I live up near Black Hawk and have been using indoor amplified rabbit ears to receive analog channels 2,4,6,7 ,9 and 12. Reception at times is fantastic for several stations, but not consistently so. I am in the process of figuring out how to make the digital transition. I'll be buying a new TV to replace the old CRT, and am looking into a new antenna to improve reception for the digital transition. I went to antennaweb.org and this is the result:


red vhf KCNC 4 CBS DENVER, CO 106° 14.3 4
red vhf KWGN 2 CW DENVER, CO 106° 14.1 2
red vhf KRMA 6 PBS DENVER, CO 108° 13.5 6
blue vhf KMGH 7 ABC DENVER, CO 107° 14.2 7
blue vhf KBDI 12 PBS BROOMFIELD, CO 177° 9.6 12
blue uhf KTFD 14 TFA BOULDER, CO 106° 14.2 14
blue vhf KUSA 9 NBC DENVER, CO 106° 14.2 9
*violet vhf KBDI-DT 12.1 PBS BROOMFIELD, CO Feb 17, 2009 (post-transition) 177° 9.6 13
*violet uhf KDVR-DT 31.1 FOX DENVER, CO Feb 17, 2009 (post-transition) 107° 14.2 32
violet uhf KPXC 59 ION DENVER, CO 117° 17.1 59
violet uhf KRMT 41 DAY DENVER, CO 127° 20.8 41


The only digital transmissions noted are the two with asterisks.

So some specific questions:

-Is this information dated? According to this thread, many of these stations are currently broadcasting in digital

-Is there a good resource to find the actual transmission frequencies of these channels to determine whether they indeed are VHF or UHF to base antenna selection?

-According to some other info I have found online from Denver area antenna users, the wineguard Winegard SS 2000 antenna is pulling in the major networks digital broadcasts. It is advertised as a UHF only antenna. The antennaweb info above shows these stations as VHF. Can anyone explain this discrepency and/or make recommendations?

Thanks

I just had a reassuring conversation with Engineering at KCNC. They have discovered a problem with the main antenna, which was exposed when they changed the pattern on 11/15/08. They switched to the backup antenna yesterday, which is providing solid signal for me. Other than testing, they will probably stay on the backup until the main antenna problem is solved.

I think we can all relax. They seem to have a good team at KCNC who are on top of the problem. At this point, they really are not in a position to predict when they will be able to get into the final configuration, but it looks like the configuration they are in now will be fine for the vast majority of the viewing area.

I have been reading through large portions of this thread and am not finding the answers I am looking for. Hoping someone can help me out. If this has been addresses elsewhere, please show me the way!

I live up near Black Hawk and have been using indoor amplified rabbit ears to receive analog channels 2,4,6,7 ,9 and 12. Reception at times is fantastic for several stations, but not consistently so. I am in the process of figuring out how to make the digital transition. I'll be buying a new TV to replace the old CRT, and am looking into a new antenna to improve reception for the digital transition. I went to antennaweb.org and this is the result:


red vhf KCNC 4 CBS DENVER, CO 106° 14.3 4
red vhf KWGN 2 CW DENVER, CO 106° 14.1 2
red vhf KRMA 6 PBS DENVER, CO 108° 13.5 6
blue vhf KMGH 7 ABC DENVER, CO 107° 14.2 7
blue vhf KBDI 12 PBS BROOMFIELD, CO 177° 9.6 12
blue uhf KTFD 14 TFA BOULDER, CO 106° 14.2 14
blue vhf KUSA 9 NBC DENVER, CO 106° 14.2 9
*violet vhf KBDI-DT 12.1 PBS BROOMFIELD, CO Feb 17, 2009 (post-transition) 177° 9.6 13
*violet uhf KDVR-DT 31.1 FOX DENVER, CO Feb 17, 2009 (post-transition) 107° 14.2 32
violet uhf KPXC 59 ION DENVER, CO 117° 17.1 59
violet uhf KRMT 41 DAY DENVER, CO 127° 20.8 41


The only digital transmissions noted are the two with asterisks.

So some specific questions:

-Is this information dated? According to this thread, many of these stations are currently broadcasting in digital

-Is there a good resource to find the actual transmission frequencies of these channels to determine whether they indeed are VHF or UHF to base antenna selection?

-According to some other info I have found online from Denver area antenna users, the wineguard Winegard SS 2000 antenna is pulling in the major networks digital broadcasts. It is advertised as a UHF only antenna. The antennaweb info above shows these stations as VHF. Can anyone explain this discrepency and/or make recommendations?

Thanks

It's all here, but not easily found.

In a nutshell, all digital in Denver is UHF for now, but after the transition, 7, 9 & 12 will revert back to VHF.

Probably the best place to find what may be available at your particular location is http://www.tvfool.com/. This will also give you the real channel and the virtual channel numbers (KRMA-DT real is 18 and virtual is 6). From your location it will probably be better to enter your latitude and longitude coordinates (a handheld GPS is good enough). You will have stations coming from your SouthEast (Lookout & Morrison Mt) and South (KBDI on Squaw Mt). Digital is going to be more line of sight than analog so you may need an outdoor antenna and possibly a rotator to get KBDI and the Lookout stations.

I'm personally 63 miles north and down in a low spot relative to the transmitters with a ridge 13 miles from my house in the direct line of sight to Lookout Mt that is over 400 feet higher than line of sight. I get the major broadcast channels and almost get 6. However there are several peaks in the way and I do not get 12 digital or analog. I'm using large Winegard Yagi UHF and VHF antennas with a Winegard 8275 pre-amp.

You probably won't need that kind of antenna power since you are relatively close to the transmitters.

Good Luck!

In a nutshell, all digital in Denver is UHF for now, but after the transition, 7, 9 & 12 will revert back to VHF.



Dang it! :mad: If it was all UHF, it would be a heck of a lot simpler.

Thanks for the info. Looks like I will be needing a rooftop antenna. Problem is, a rooftop model won't last through the brutal winter winds up here.

Those are beautiful graphs. How did you go about making them? I'd be interested in doing that in my area for one or two of the local stations.

Trip,

The readings are made from a standard digital tuner in a Linux server. I just modified the dtvsignals program from the dvb-atsc-tools package to make about 1000 signal readings of a channel (throwing out the first dozen or so readings to allow it time to stabilize) and insert the average into a database. I've got a script that runs in a loop and calls this program with each channel that I want to monitor. Then it is just a matter of creating a php web page to read the database values and create the graph. It's all pretty much home-brew stuff, but I'm always happy to share source code with anyone that has a similar setup.

I'd be curious to see a signal measurement for the station's analog channel.

Unfortunately, I have an ATSC-only card, so I can't do analog, otherwise I would show you that one as well.

Trip,

The readings are made from a standard digital tuner in a Linux server. I just modified the dtvsignals program from the dvb-atsc-tools package to make about 1000 signal readings of a channel (throwing out the first dozen or so readings to allow it time to stabilize) and insert the average into a database. I've got a script that runs in a loop and calls this program with each channel that I want to monitor. Then it is just a matter of creating a php web page to read the database values and create the graph. It's all pretty much home-brew stuff, but I'm always happy to share source code with anyone that has a similar setup.

I run Linux as my primary OS and have a computer at home with the right hardware and Mythbuntu installed. I'd be very interested in seeing this setup. =)

- Trip

I have been reading through large portions of this thread and am not finding the answers I am looking for. Hoping someone can help me out. If this has been addresses elsewhere, please show me the way!

I live up near Black Hawk and have been using indoor amplified rabbit ears to receive analog channels 2,4,6,7 ,9 and 12. Reception at times is fantastic for several stations, but not consistently so. I am in the process of figuring out how to make the digital transition. I'll be buying a new TV to replace the old CRT, and am looking into a new antenna to improve reception for the digital transition. I went to antennaweb.org and this is the result:

The only digital transmissions noted are the two with asterisks.

So some specific questions:

-Is this information dated? According to this thread, many of these stations are currently broadcasting in digital

-Is there a good resource to find the actual transmission frequencies of these channels to determine whether they indeed are VHF or UHF to base antenna selection?

-According to some other info I have found online from Denver area antenna users, the wineguard Winegard SS 2000 antenna is pulling in the major networks digital broadcasts. It is advertised as a UHF only antenna. The antennaweb info above shows these stations as VHF. Can anyone explain this discrepency and/or make recommendations?

Thanks

Ha, Mountainhick
This is a very confusing time right now and there isn't alot of information that is plain and simple. I will try my best to put it in a nut shell. I live in Milliken about 47 Miles from Lookout Mountain and have a Channel Master 4228 (see picture) on a rotator with 1 HDTV with digital tuner and one analog TV with a CM converter box. I get all of the digital channels reliability except KRMA 6-1. The HDTV almost never brings in 6-1 but the converter box is always between 20 to 30 percent. Thats enough to decode with little break up. The CM 4228 is a UHF antenna but it also picks up the high VHF's which is 7-13. I can get analog 7, 9, 12 off of the 4228. Right now all of the digital channels are up and running on UHF, but come Feb. 17 7, 9, 12 digital will be moving to 7-1,9-1,12-1 the high VHF.
Did you get your $40 coupons for the converter box's? www.dtv2009.gov.
If I were you I would get a Zenith box at Circuit City and hook it up to what you have now and see what you can get. I also have a Zenith box and it seems to be one of the better ones out there. You can get into the channel list and play around and see which channels are there but can't decode because there isn't enough signal.

I run Linux as my primary OS and have a computer at home with the right hardware and Mythbuntu installed. I'd be very interested in seeing this setup. =)

- Trip

I've also got a Linux MythTV setup. I made a half-hearted attempt to do something like this a while back. The problem that I encountered was that if mythbackend was running no other programs could open /dev/dvb/adapter?/frontend?. This was the case whether or not MythTV was actively recording something at the time.

If you find away around this I'd be very interested in knowing the solution!

Ever since KCNC went to their backup antenna they are tied for strongest signal from Lookout with KWGN-DT.

If you're reading, KCNC engineers, Thank You.

My understanding is that mythbackend holds control of the tuner whether it's "in use" or not, the logic being that if it needs to run a scheduled recording, it doesn't want to be sitting there waiting for the tuner to be released by another app.

I don't have a "mythtv" box per say, it's just installed on the machine, so generally I kill mythbackend when I start it up anyway. I generally use the Windows side of it just because TSReader only works on Windows and I haven't found a comparable Linux utility.

- Trip

Just as a followup, I chatted with an engineer at KCNC this morning and he said the problem was what I proposed in an earlier post: their main broadcast antenna apparently has multiple lobes.

They drove around with their signal truck Monday afternoon after I called a second time and found that Louisville was falling in a null between the lobes and thus we were getting minimal signal at best.

Thus as mentioned they are currently using their backup antenna, which is of a different design, while they consult with the engineering firm that designed their main antenna to get them to solve the lobe/null issue.

However, the big thing we all need to take away from this is they said they got very, very few calls about it so they thought everything was OK after their 11/18 switch. It was only when I called them twice and a few others contacted them that they knew they had an issue. Likewise, when they went to the backup antenna, aside from the readings from their signal truck, it's only because of calls like mine that they knew it definitively solved the problem.

So the bottom line is, if you suddenly see a signal issue with a local station, you can complain here, but call the station and let them know. The KCNC engineer said they have no real way of getting feedback from viewers regarding signal issues unless it's something where they're off the air entirely aside from viewer calls.

(I know this in the past as one afternoon KCNC-DT had no audio for about 35 minutes until I called and they reset their encoder; the monitors in the control room are all silent and they only hear board audio, not OTA audio.)

Ever since KCNC went to their backup antenna they are tied for strongest signal from Lookout with KWGN-DT.

If you're reading, KCNC engineers, Thank You.

*nod*

Their signal has improved greatly up here in Fort Collins as well. On my DHG-500, the signal meter has gone from 77 to 94. The numbers themselves don't have significance, I know, but the percentage increase in my STB's measured signal is significant.

Ha, Mountainhick
This is a very confusing time right now and there isn't alot of information that is plain and simple. I will try my best to put it in a nut shell. I live in Milliken about 47 Miles from Lookout Mountain and have a Channel Master 4228 (see picture) on a rotator with 1 HDTV with digital tuner and one analog TV with a CM converter box. I get all of the digital channels reliability except KRMA 6-1. The HDTV almost never brings in 6-1 but the converter box is always between 20 to 30 percent. Thats enough to decode with little break up. The CM 4228 is a UHF antenna but it also picks up the high VHF's which is 7-13. I can get analog 7, 9, 12 off of the 4228. Right now all of the digital channels are up and running on UHF, but come Feb. 17 7, 9, 12 digital will be moving to 7-1,9-1,12-1 the high VHF.
Did you get your $40 coupons for the converter box's? www.dtv2009.gov.
If I were you I would get a Zenith box at Circuit City and hook it up to what you have now and see what you can get. I also have a Zenith box and it seems to be one of the better ones out there. You can get into the channel list and play around and see which channels are there but can't decode because there isn't enough signal.

Thanks for the info.

Just as a followup, I chatted with an engineer at KCNC this morning and he said the problem was what I proposed in an earlier post: their main broadcast antenna apparently has multiple lobes.

They drove around with their signal truck Monday afternoon after I called a second time and found that Louisville was falling in a null between the lobes and thus we were getting minimal signal at best.

Thus as mentioned they are currently using their backup antenna, which is of a different design, while they consult with the engineering firm that designed their main antenna to get them to solve the lobe/null issue.

However, the big thing we all need to take away from this is they said they got very, very few calls about it so they thought everything was OK after their 11/18 switch. It was only when I called them twice and a few others contacted them that they knew they had an issue. Likewise, when they went to the backup antenna, aside from the readings from their signal truck, it's only because of calls like mine that they knew it definitively solved the problem.

So the bottom line is, if you suddenly see a signal issue with a local station, you can complain here, but call the station and let them know. The KCNC engineer said they have no real way of getting feedback from viewers regarding signal issues unless it's something where they're off the air entirely aside from viewer calls.

(I know this in the past as one afternoon KCNC-DT had no audio for about 35 minutes until I called and they reset their encoder; the monitors in the control room are all silent and they only hear board audio, not OTA audio.)Anytime that a station makes a change in transmitting equipment, they should check to make sure that reception has not been compromised.

Anytime that a station makes a change in transmitting equipment, they should check to make sure that reception has not been compromised.

How would you propose they do that, go door to door?

Yes, they have a signal truck, but there's no way they could check the signal in the entire Denver Metro Area, Boulder, Ft. Collins and the plains.

How would you propose they do that, go door to door?

Yes, they have a signal truck, but there's no way they could check the signal in the entire Denver Metro Area, Boulder, Ft. Collins and the plains.

The engineer at KCNC I talked to yesterday did have an answer to that one, in this case, that I would never have thought of. He was planning to load test gear into a helicopter ( I presume the channel 4 traffic copter) and circle the transmitter to get a complete set of readings.

I would consider that to be a significant effort, and even if they own the helicopter, it sure would not be free. The thing it told me is that KCNC engineering takes their signal very seriously, and they do care whether the real coverage closely resembles the pretty charts and graphs.

Even that effort would not have detected a problem caused by muti-path. I can't imagine any way to tell if any area is being effected by signals bounced off some front range peak other than readings taken in the effected area.

As other have said, my hats off to the team at KCNC. It is great to deal with people who care. It is also nice to deal wit a station where the engineering team does not appear to be hiding. When I called the main number I saw on the website contacts page, and asked to talked to broadcast engineering, I was connected to a line in engineering which has often been answered immediately when I called (not just voice mail) by someone knowledgable, concerned, and able to make things happen.

How would you propose they do that, go door to door?

Yes, they have a signal truck, but there's no way they could check the signal in the entire Denver Metro Area, Boulder, Ft. Collins and the plains.Why not, that guy in the Verizon as on TV wanders all over the place asking "can you hear me now?". ;) ;)

Why not, that guy in the Verizon as on TV wanders all over the place asking "can you hear me now?". ;) ;)

Can't speak for Denver, but where I live, he's missed some rather large areas. ;) So I'm not sure it's the best methodology.

- Trip

How would you propose they do that, go door to door?

Yes, they have a signal truck, but there's no way they could check the signal in the entire Denver Metro Area, Boulder, Ft. Collins and the plains.Maybe give a setup like Sarah has to 25 of their employees who live in different parts of the metro area, and collect the results every day.

( TV Technology ) 12/4/2008

FCC Chairman Kevin Martin said he has a plan for a new DTV translator service to help broadcasters fill in dark areas in the old analog coverage where receivers are not picking up DTV signals. It’s not clear how many broadcasters will want to install new transmission facilities beyond those already required by the DTV transition, but the new regime would add to the tools broadcasters can use to avoid losing viewers.

Broadcasters already won new rules Nov. 4 for Distributed Transmission Systems (DTS), which employ multiple transmitters on the same frequency. They also already use thousands of translator towers, which are not required to cease analog transmission next February.

The proposal is on the FCC agenda for its Dec. 18 meeting as a Notice of Proposed Rulemaking. If the commissioners approve, it would invite comment on the issues.

Martin said the proposal would ensure broadcasters have every opportunity to reach all their analog viewers who might be missed by the new DTV signals.

He did not address whether the new system for translator licensing might also be used with broadcasters for purposes beyond just sending out DTV to home viewers—mobile DTV, for example, which would benefit from more DTV transmitters, not to mention the powers of incumbency that could may arise as white space devices start to seek unused airspace among the DTV channels.

( interesting )

Ever since KCNC went to their backup antenna they are tied for strongest signal from Lookout with KWGN-DT.

If you're reading, KCNC engineers, Thank You.

KCNC engineers please note:
While not my strongest signal (KBDI-DT @ 100), KCNC-DT is now averaging 85 on my Dish ViP211 and that equals the highest reading I've had for them since they went live on LOM. Obviously the backup antenna is doing a better job for those of us to the near NNE of KCNC-DT's broadcast tower.

I'm located at 68th and Taft Circle (4 blocks west of Sims) in Arvada.

How would you propose they do that, go door to door?

Yes, they have a signal truck, but there's no way they could check the signal in the entire Denver Metro Area, Boulder, Ft. Collins and the plains.

One way would be to monitor this forum and for this forum's contributors to note their locations when they have signal problems or major changes occurring. Most of us post our issues here because we aren't sure if we are the only ones seeing a particular signal issue. If the stations just wait for complaint phone calls, they will have to deal with slow response to issues and some false negatives. Reading this thread and following up with their signal truck is certainly cheaper than flying a helicopter. Just my 2 cents.

Amen!

I am just about 9 miles from the LM towers. Granted I am at the bottom of Bear Valley, but I can see the towers from my roof.. KCNC has been in and out over the last week or so. I installed a new HVR-2250 and scan would not even find it. Since it has... only after reading this forum did I understand why... Is it so hard for "them" to check here as well???
It seems a simple and cheap thing to do!!

Phil

Amen!

I am just about 9 miles from the LM towers. Granted I am at the bottom of Bear Valley, but I can see the towers from my roof.. KCNC has been in and out over the last week or so. I installed a new HVR-2250 and scan would not even find it. Since it has... only after reading this forum did I understand why... Is it so hard for "them" to check here as well???
It seems a simple and cheap thing to do!!

Phil

As has been mentioned before, they do read this forum when they get a chance. They don't post, and in our culture, I can understand why. The posts did not really tell them what the problem was. Often complaints are vague, and don't provide specific locations, dates and times, and actionable data.

If you look back at the initial complaints, I believe that they were all in the Louisville area. This made it look like it could have been a location problem. This could have been multipath off of a front range peak, and I don't know if they could have done much about it. It also could have been individuals with preamps that were being overdriven by a signal that was now too strong. I don't recall when, or if, there were posts that showed that the problem extended out along a vector. It was the KCNC engineering analysis that established that it was a problem in the main antenna. They had to do testing, which was going to cause some signal interruption.

I have no idea if they have all the data they need, so there may be more disturbances, but at least KCNC is actively working to provide quality coverage to the metro area. They have clear plans with a high probability of success, and a knowledgable team dedicated to serving the viewing public. I will certainly have a high tollerance for an occasional problem along the way.

KCNC seems to be taking appropriate action to fix their transmission problem. I have confidence that when the February transition occurs, they will not have to change a thing. I have less confidence in other stations. Those that are changing frequency and antennas and locations will be doing so in the middle of winter.

KCNC seems to be taking appropriate action to fix their transmission problem.

It would be nice if KMGH & KUSA would.

It would be nice if KMGH & KUSA would.

Have a number of people been seeing the same problem, and have they called those stations? Even KCNC didn't move out on resolving their issue until they got some specific information.

However, the big thing we all need to take away from this is they said they got very, very few calls about it so they thought everything was OK after their 11/18 switch. It was only when I called them twice and a few others contacted them that they knew they had an issue. Likewise, when they went to the backup antenna, aside from the readings from their signal truck, it's only because of calls like mine that they knew it definitively solved the problem.

So the bottom line is, if you suddenly see a signal issue with a local station, you can complain here, but call the station and let them know. The KCNC engineer said they have no real way of getting feedback from viewers regarding signal issues unless it's something where they're off the air entirely aside from viewer calls.

Have a number of people been seeing the same problem, and have they called those stations? Even KCNC didn't move out on resolving their issue until they got some specific information.

KUSA has been bouncing around from a very low signal to about 50% on my Zenith DTT900 STB (mostly un-watchable) since last evening. Right now it shows about about 40% and tries to lock on, but breaks up a lot. I just sent an email to Ken Highberger.

KUSA has been bouncing around from a very low signal to about 50% on my Zenith DTT900 STB (mostly un-watchable) since last evening. Right now it shows about about 40% and tries to lock on, but breaks up a lot. I just sent an email to Ken Highberger.

I'm having trouble with KUSA also, but I am also having problems with a variety of my weaker stations. I attribute the problem to ice accumulation on my antenna. Specifically there are huge chunks of ice sitting on top of at least 2 of the 8 standoffs for the bowties on my CM4228, which contact both sides of the element. This is potentially creating a slight "short" between the elements, decreasing the antenna's efficiency. At least that is my theory, and I'm sticking to it! I really have no idea if that is a plausible explanation. The other possibility is that water is getting into my connections, but my installation is fairly new, and I was fairly careful about making good connections, even sealing all the connections with Krylon acrylic when I was done.

I've seen a slight decrease across the board, but I am a little surprised that KUSA reception was affected so much, so I'd be happy to hear that the problem is on their end and not mine. For now I am just hoping that when the ice melts everything will return to normal.

So, is your antenna outdoors? If so, is there a chance that snow/ice may be interfering with your reception? I'm beginning to see where a Yagi might be a lot less susceptible to this type of problem.

EDIT: I did get a good recording of ER last night, so the problem started after that, and I believe I already had the ice accumulation at that point. So perhaps this is really KUSA's problem.

KCNC seems to be taking appropriate action to fix their transmission problem. I have confidence that when the February transition occurs, they will not have to change a thing. I have less confidence in other stations. Those that are changing frequency and antennas and locations will be doing so in the middle of winter.

Aren't they changing their digital back to VHF Channel 4? That will require using the new antenna on the new tower and a new DTV transmitter. Have they tested the new vhf equipment?

Edit: I see they will be using their present DTV channel UHF 35

--- CHAS

Aren't they changing their digital back to VHF Channel 4?

Not a chance. Thankfully CBS, unlike ABC, knows better than to screw around with low-VHF.

- Trip

Not a chance. Thankfully CBS, unlike ABC, knows better than to screw around with low-VHF.

- Trip
AIUI, channel 7 is considered high-VHF. Am I wrong?

Isn't channel 7 (our ABC) in the VHF high band?

Isn't channel 7 (our ABC) in the VHF high band?

Correct.

It's also owned by McGraw-Hill and not ABC.

I was making reference to ABC's WPVI, which is in HIPAR's area and is returning to channel 6 next year.

- Trip

I'm having trouble with KUSA also, but I am also having problems with a variety of my weaker stations. I attribute the problem to ice accumulation on my antenna. Specifically there are huge chunks of ice sitting on top of at least 2 of the 8 standoffs for the bowties on my CM4228, which contact both sides of the element. This is potentially creating a slight "short" between the elements, decreasing the antenna's efficiency. At least that is my theory, and I'm sticking to it! I really have no idea if that is a plausible explanation. The other possibility is that water is getting into my connections, but my installation is fairly new, and I was fairly careful about making good connections, even sealing all the connections with Krylon acrylic when I was done.

I've seen a slight decrease across the board, but I am a little surprised that KUSA reception was affected so much, so I'd be happy to hear that the problem is on their end and not mine. For now I am just hoping that when the ice melts everything will return to normal.

So, is your antenna outdoors? If so, is there a chance that snow/ice may be interfering with your reception? I'm beginning to see where a Yagi might be a lot less susceptible to this type of problem.

EDIT: I did get a good recording of ER last night, so the problem started after that, and I believe I already had the ice accumulation at that point. So perhaps this is really KUSA's problem.

My Weingard HD9095P Yagi antenna is outdoors about 10 feet above the roof. There was some snow sitting on the top of the elements and it hasn't moved all day.

I don't think there is moisture in my connections. When I finished up my installation this fall, I sprayed all exterior connections with an electrical sealer and then wrapped them with Coax-Seal (a tar like strip that wraps around and molds together and to the connector etc that can only be removed with a knife).

KUSA is coming in fine at 5:30 this evening.

The reason I believe that it was on their end is that all other channels were good with only a slight signal drop due to the weather/snow.

KUSA had a weird moment about 20 minutes into the noon news today. Things just sort of froze up and the audio was in slow motion. All my other channels were fine. The episode lasted less than 10 minutes, but it was really weird. All is fine now.

Had best ever or tied for best ever signals on all my DTV channels about 8 AM today, but by afternoon everything was down to typical levels, with KCNC back in the high 70s. Cold, crisp, morning air and a snow cover are my guess for the extraordinarily good signals this morning.

KUSA's digital signal went off the air about 10 minutes into the 10:00 PM newscast. It's still off. I tried calling the newsroom twice - no one answers. Looks like, from other posts today, that they must be having problems.

This is the stupid thing for me. Since KUSA went to LOM, it has always been very week. Most of the time I just don't receive it. Along with KMGH. It's better though.

Now the stupid thing is I have NEVER had a problem with KTVD. Now If I remember someone here said KUSA's ant is lower on the tower than KTVD's. Why would ganett do that? I would think they would whant KUSA's higher for better reseption way out to the boonies.

I'm at Florida & Wads. with LOS to LOM.

KUSA's digital signal went off the air about 10 minutes into the 10:00 PM newscast. It's still off. I tried calling the newsroom twice - no one answers. Looks like, from other posts today, that they must be having problems.

Actually, no they never went off the air. Welcome to the wonderful world of bad PSIP data, and how everyone sees things according to how their device behaves.

Around 10:15 PM KUSA changed their TVCT table, which contains the number of programs, the channel names and the display channel numbers. It now is empty, i.e. they changed the number of programs to 0.

Some devices require a TVCT and won't display anything without it. Those devices won't display KQCK for instance, which has never sent a TVCT. Sending a TVCT with 0 programs may confuse some other devices that might normally work without a TVCT at all. Perhaps a rescan might clear things up.

Here's how my devices behaved. My DTVpal didn't notice any problem at all. It continued to show both programs on 9.1 and 9.2, and even displayed the channel names, e.g. KUSA-DT. Since I knew that information was no longer being sent, it is clear that the DTVpal caches that information. Unplugging it for a while did not change that. Doing a factory reset and rescan caused it to find KUSA, and ignore the 0 sized TVCT. It put KUSA's programs on 16.1 and 16.2, which would be the behaviour if there was no TVCT at all.

My Zenith DTT900 noticed the "loss" of the TVCT as soon as I tuned the channel. It immediately changed the channel to 16.1 and kept on showing the program.

So, what you get very much depends on the tuner you have. I can imagine there might even be some tuners which would continue to work until you reset them, in which case they might balk at the 0 length TVCT and refuse to show anything.

I wonder how easy it is for KUSA to notice problems like this and fix them. Something has been going wrong with their TVCT for more than a month now, but not as extreme as this. There would be split second switches to a 0 sized TVCT and then back. They also keep flip-flopping their channel names from KUSA-DT to KUSA-HD and Weather to WX-Plus.

This is the stupid thing for me. Since KUSA went to LOM, it has always been very week. Most of the time I just don't receive it. Along with KMGH. It's better though.

I'm surprised to hear that people have issues with KMGH given that they were my strongest signal from Lookout until KCNC raised their power and moved to their backup antenna. :-)

However, KUSA has been running a low power transmitter since they moved to Lookout.

This is the stupid thing for me. Since KUSA went to LOM, it has always been very week. Most of the time I just don't receive it. Along with KMGH. It's better though.

Now the stupid thing is I have NEVER had a problem with KTVD. Now If I remember someone here said KUSA's ant is lower on the tower than KTVD's. Why would ganett do that? I would think they would whant KUSA's higher for better reseption way out to the boonies.

KUSA is reverting to channel 9 after the transition. The antenna that they've put up for channel 16 is temporary. This is why they've put up a lower antenna. KMGH at least seems to want to recycle their channel 17 equipment for KZCO-LD after the transition; I've heard of no such similar plans for KUSA's channel 16 equipment, which means it could be pulled down, retuned, and used as a backup for KTVD-DT, for example.

- Trip

Thanks for the info on what KUSA will do. The really silly thing was before they all moved to LOM I could receive all of them just fine. Even KMGH. Once they moved I've had nothing but problems.:rolleyes:


And forget about ch.'s 6 & 12.

I called KUSA and they said "it was about the fourth call we've gotten about this" but their signal "looks fine."

I did my best to explain it's not a signal strength or signal quality problem but rather in the PSIP data they're sending out and the fact that it indicates they have 0 channels.

I tried to explain the TVCT to the guy in Master Control and he scribbled down the info and said he'd pass it along to engineering "when they came in around 9:00 AM."

So we'll see if they fix it and if not, others might have better results in waiting to call until after 9:00 AM.

Oh, and my S3 TiVo shows a black screen for 9-1 or 9-2.

Around 10:15 PM KUSA changed their TVCT table, which contains the number of programs, the channel names and the display channel numbers. It now is empty, i.e. they changed the number of programs to 0.

Since I don't have the means to decode PSIP data, do you mean the "number of channels in section" field is 0, or is it still 2 and the section describing each channel is blank or zeroed out?

For the curious:

http://www.etherguidesystems.com/Help/SDOs/ATSC/Syntax/TableSections/TVCT.aspx

Dang it! :mad: If it was all UHF, it would be a heck of a lot simpler.

Absolutely correct; many of us have had that thought.

My Hauppauge tuner is not picking up KUSA anymore. Does anyone know a number to call about this?

My Hauppauge tuner is not picking up KUSA anymore.

Does the Happauge allow manual tuning of the RF channel? Worked for me on my cheapo Envision HDTV: Tuned to 16-1, and it captured both The Tonight Show and WX Plus as 16-1 and 16-2, but with no program/station/virtual channel info. The tuner is able to pick up a broadcast in the absence of PSIP data, but not every tuner can do this per jsmar's post. Worth a try as long as you know the RF channel to which the station is assigned.

(Reposted form the Northern Colorado/SE Wyoming DTV Forum, for folks in communities further south along KRMA-DT's "corridor of darkness")

If you are (as I am) in an advanced state of mourning over the coming absence of PBS programming in Northern Colorado, take a look at this website:

http://www.pbs.org/video/?nav=vid

It's the hub for streaming video from PBS. The shows are put up on the site on a relatively delayed basis -- for example, the current version of _Nightly Business Report_ is not available until 6:30 PM Colorado time, an hour after it is broadcast on KRMA (analog 6). On my computer, the audio is great but the video is pretty jerky. It's a bit better better on my wife's computer, which has a Matrox video card. In any case, it's actually less noisy and somewhat more viewable than the crappy, noise-laden analog signal we've gotten from KRMA for all these years...

Check it out, and let me know what you think of the image quality, audio and timeliness of this service. In any report, please include the speed of your Internet connection -- we are limited to 1.5 Mbit/sec from Qwest out here in the sticks. (Actual download rate is about 1.2 Mb/sec.)

This may be the only reasonably low-cost way to get certain PBS programming up here for some time.


Jim McCauley

9-1 is working for me. I have a 0 signal strength for 20-1, not that I ever watch it.

Since I don't have the means to decode PSIP data, do you mean the "number of channels in section" field is 0, or is it still 2 and the section describing each channel is blank or zeroed out?


number of channels in section was set to 0.

KUSA fixed it at 10:04 AM.

jsmar, thanks for the explanation. I thought KUSA was off the air since I experienced bad video problems for a couple of minutes before I lost the signal - half screens of video, no video but sound, severe pixelation, etc. Next time I'll go to 16.1, but since they're flashcutting back to 9 at transition, perhaps this problem will last only about 75 days.

The E* HD feed was a yellow screen, so they apparently take what they get from KUSA, which I presume is OTA. E*'s SD feed was OK, so E* must still pick up the analog feed for SD.

9-1 is working for me. I have a 0 signal strength for 20-1, not that I ever watch it.

It looks like KTVD went off the air at noon. I wonder if this is a scheduled outage for some type of reconfiguration.

EDIT: Figures, just about as soon as I posted, KTVD came back.

The E* HD feed was a yellow screen, so they apparently take what they get from KUSA, which I presume is OTA. E*'s SD feed was OK, so E* must still pick up the analog feed for SD.

Wow. I wonder if the TVCT issue was the cause of the problem, or perhaps whatever precipitated the TVCT problem also caused the E* problem (which would only make sense if E* gets a direct feed from the studio, rather than OTA). Was the E* HD feed a yellow screen all the way up to 10 AM when KUSA fixed the TVCT problem? I can understand KUSA possibly treating a small number of complaints from callers about an OTA problem that others aren't seeing as a low priority. But if someone complained to E* and an E* engineer called KUSA I would think that would get their attention. Especially since that problem would be consistant, i.e. all E* HD customers would see the same problem.

Missed a recording today due to some date weirdness by KRMA analog. Two different devices that I own get their date/time OTA from KRMA analog, and both are showing 02/10/2000. Anybody else notice this?

Is KTVD down again? I'm not getting a signal.

Whoever just fixed it, thanks. :)

Channels 4, 7 and 20 lost their digital signals at the same time.

The headline says it all, at least as far as reception in Fort Collins is concerned. Signal levels on all three of my digital tuners are zero. Did something unpleasant happen on LOM?

Jim McCauley

I suspect a Kansas City Chiefs sympathiser. A saboteur, perhaps.

Well no HD signal for the Bronco game. I called the main switch board. It was closed. I called the news room. Rob answered and I ask to be transfered to engineering. No one answered but apparently he spoke to someone because be ask me some detailed questions - where I lived, if I could receive channel 9, if I was on Dish Network. I'm at 56th & Ward in Arvada trying to receive OTA. Yes for channel 9. No for channel 7 & 20. I was 70% signal strength on Friday and 100% quality. Rob told me they are on their backup transmitter at reduced power. No ETA on being back on the primary transmitter but he was sure they were working hard on it during a Bronco game. I ask where the backup transmitter was located. Rob told me the backup transmitter is on LOM. Everything has been removed from RP. OH! I can receive KCNC analog. If just a really ugly picture on a 50" plasma. I'll do a rescan during half time.

At 3:25 I just tuned in and am at 100% from LOM.

*edit* I should have clarified; I had the Bronco game OTA at 100% but I currently am showing a black screen for KMGH via E* while their OTA is normal.

The headline says it all, at least as far as reception in Fort Collins is concerned. Signal levels on all three of my digital tuners are zero. Did something unpleasant happen on LOM?

Jim McCauley

According to my logs, KMGH went out first, and then KTVD and KCNC went out soon after. KCNC was back within 15 minutes of going off the air. KTVD didn't return until about 3:20 pm. KGMH is still off the air. KUSA never went off the air. It certainly looks like the problem had something to do with the equipment on Lookout Mountain. I wonder what is taking KMGH so long to get back. Are they all on backup transmitters with reduced power, and I just can't get KMGH? Are others who are closer to Lookout getting KMGH? I also wonder if KUSA was just lucky or was there something different about their setup at Lookout that allowed them to survive whatever happened.

It will be interesting to find out what the cause was. I'd guess a lightning strike, but this isn't a likely time of year for that.

My wife is livid (not a pretty sight) about the problems that affected the game this afternoon. We set the Tivo for the HD channel, went out for the afternoon, came back and there is a chunk missing and premature ending!

... Are they all on backup transmitters with reduced power, and I just can't get KMGH? Are others who are closer to Lookout getting KMGH? ...

At 23 miles out and LOS, KCNC, KUSA and KTVD came back with normal or near-normal signal-level readings, normal being mid to high 80s. KMGH has been occasional murmurs near the bottom of the scale, not enough for a lock. It's normally our strongest station at minimum 90, maximum 95, average 92. Equipment: hand-made DB-4 clone and 5-element VHF-high Yagi in attic joined with UVSJ; no amp; tuner, DVDR and FM receiver 55 feet down the coax.

I just took readings (12-7-2008 @ 7:15PM) with my Dish TR40 connected to my 2nd floor closet mounted(about 25 feet above groud level) Channel Master 3010 Stealth Antenna from my home near Tamarisk & Washington in Louisville overlooking the Tamarisk open space to the South.

Station Current Typical
04-1___73-74__93-98
07-1___85-90__91-96
09-1___80-81__78-80
20-1___76-80__90-96

The current level for KCNC 4-1 looks like the readings when they were using the primary antenna between 11-15-08 and 12-1-08.

I just took readings (12-7-2008 @ 7:15PM) with my Dish TR40 connected to my 2nd floor closet mounted(about 25 feet above groud level) Channel Master 3010 Stealth Antenna from my home near Tamarisk & Washington in Louisville overlooking the Tamarisk open space to the South.

Station Current Typical
04-1___73-74__93-98
07-1___85-90__91-96
09-1___80-81__78-80
20-1___76-80__90-96

The current level for KCNC 4-1 looks like the readings when they were using the primary antenna between 11-15-08 and 12-1-08.

KMGH came back for me around 5:40 pm. They have the weakest signal by far (of the 4 Lake Cedar Group stations) at my location, i.e. the picture breaks up fairly often. Based on your readings it does look like KMGH, KCNC and KTVD are all broadcasting with their backup transmitters, whereas KUSA hasn't had a problem.

KMGH came back for me around 5:40 pm. They have the weakest signal by far (of the 4 Lake Cedar Group stations) at my location, i.e. the picture breaks up fairly often. Based on your readings it does look like KMGH, KCNC and KTVD are all broadcasting with their backup transmitters, whereas KUSA hasn't had a problem.
If things are still messed up tomorrow, I plan to call the Engineer at KCNC that I have been in contact with.

I figure that if the key people are in right now, they are probably pretty busy, and don't need to answer answer calls from me.

It does sound like something may have damaged some of the on-line transmitters. If KCNC went to the back-up transmitter, it may have been connected to the main antenna, which would be consistent with a weak KCNC in Louisville, but fine in Aurora.

When KCNC DT came back on the air OTA, my E* receiver's meter was registering signal strength/quality in the low 60's. I had constant dropouts, so I switched to the E* feed and everything was OK for the balance of the Broncos game. I presumed the lower signal reading was due to a backup facility. Tonight, my better half is watching a movie on KCNC and the signal reading is a solid, steady 100.

I checked KMGH and KTVD just before the Avs game at 6:00 and their signals were at normal levels.

I haven't seen it mentioned, but the KCNC analog feed went out for me too on E*. I don't know about OTA since I don't have any analog TV's connected to an antenna. My son called me from Castle Rock and told me that his neighbors with Comcast and D* didn't experience an HD outage during the Broncos game. I presume they both have fiber feeds while E* gets their locals OTA.

Here is the current signal strengths from Southwest Longmont (Airport Rd. & Pike Rd):

4.1 KCNC: 92-93
7.1 KMGH: 41
9.1 KUSA: 70-73
20.1 KTVD: 84

These readings are from my Sony KDF-E50A10 RPTV with a rooftop amplified Winegard Sensar II antenna.

With the low signal strength of 41, 7.1 KMGH is the only channel that I am unable to obtain a lock and therefore not receiving any reception. With my setup, 7.1 KMGH signal strength is usually in the low 70's prior to today.

Edit:
I wonder if the consistent signal loss at fixed time intervals the last few weeks that I have been reporting from 7.1 KMGH was just a symptom of today's outage...

I wonder what the single point of failure all the transmitters have.

Someone from sCARE have a pair of cutters?

From KCNC's web site:

HD Transmission Malfunctions During Broncos Game

DENVER (CBS4) ― At 2 p.m. on Sunday all High Definition (HD) transmitters on the Lake Cedar Group tower on Lookout Mountain failed due to a malfunction.

The malfunction shut down all the HD transmissions coming off the mountain (KCNC, KMGH, KUSA, and KTVD) and subsequently the KCNC feed to all Dish Network customers.

KCNC recovered its HD signal within 15 minutes using a back-up HD transmitter. The signal to Dish Network was re-established at the same time.

KCNC is broadcasting from a back-up HD transmitter at a lower wattage, which will result in a reduced coverage area for over-the-air HD viewers in the area.

The cause of the malfunction is under investigation.

http://cbs4denver.com/entertainment/hd.malfunction.lookout.2.881890.html

By the way, KCNC is also the only news organization bothering to report on this at the moment, TV, radio or print, so kudos to them once again.

I wonder what the single point of failure all the transmitters have.

Someone from sCARE have a pair of cutters?

From KCNC's web site:



By the way, KCNC is also the only news organization bothering to report on this at the moment, TV, radio or print, so kudos to them once again.

The article is wrong in the fact that KUSA went off the air. There was not so much as a blip in KUSA's signal during that time.

The article is wrong in the fact that KUSA went off the air. There was not so much as a blip in KUSA's signal during that time.

KUSA was never out at my location. KCNC came back a short time after the initial outage and KTVD a bit later. KMGH is still showing a weak signal that isn't being decoded by my Zenith STB.

It'll be interesting to know what caused 3 transmitters to fail simultaneously.

I missed all the fun yesterday. I was watching the Broncos on 5-1 out of Cheyenne so I could easily flip to the Pitts/Dallas game on 27. I have a separate antenna pointed at Cheyenne for 5-1, 27, and 11-1(when they choose to transmit). I just plain lucked out! :)

I missed all the fun yesterday. I was watching the Broncos on 5-1 out of Cheyenne so I could easily flip to the Pitts/Dallas game on 27. I have a separate antenna pointed at Cheyenne for 5-1, 27, and 11-1(when they choose to transmit). I just plain lucked out! :)What antenna do you use for the Cheyenne reception and how is it hooked up with your other antenna? I would like to receive those stations, but a high-gain antenna pointed at Lookout just doesn't cut the mustard.

I haven't seen it mentioned, but the KCNC analog feed went out for me too on E*. I don't know about OTA since I don't have any analog TV's connected to an antenna. My son called me from Castle Rock and told me that his neighbors with Comcast and D* didn't experience an HD outage during the Broncos game. I presume they both have fiber feeds while E* gets their locals OTA.

E* no longer carries the analog feeds for the 4 major networks in Denver. They are transmitting the SD DTV output from those stations as of sometime last September. So, when the DTV signal goes down, E*'s SD and HD broadcasts go blank like they did on KCNC during the Bronco game yesterday. Comcast, OTOH, probably still sends out the analog broadcasts from the 4 majors and will until it is no longer available 2/18/09.

Posted by CEB II:
E* no longer carries the analog feeds for the 4 major networks in Denver. They are transmitting the SD DTV output from those stations as of sometime last September. So, when the DTV signal goes down, E*'s SD and HD broadcasts go blank like they did on KCNC during the Bronco game yesterday. Comcast, OTOH, probably still sends out the analog broadcasts from the 4 majors and will until it is no longer available 2/18/09.
On December 5, KUSA's data stream got screwed up during the 10:00 PM news and many of us, including me, lost their OTA signal. See my post #4340. While E*'s HD channel was a "yellow screen", I switched to E*'s SD feed to finish the newscast and watch Leno. If E* takes the digital signal and downconverts it for its SD channel, why was I able to view the SD feed (channel 8202) on December 5 but not the HD feed (channel 6332)?

Posted by CEB II:

On December 5, KUSA's data stream got screwed up during the 10:00 PM news and many of us, including me, lost their OTA signal. See my post #4340. While E*'s HD channel was a "yellow screen", I switched to E*'s SD feed to finish the newscast and watch Leno. If E* takes the digital signal and downconverts it for its SD channel, why was I able to view the SD feed (channel 8202) on December 5 but not the HD feed (channel 6332)?

Don't know, maybe a different problem than occurred during yesterday's Bronco game. Yesterday's fiasco on KCNC during the Bronco game left a greenish-yellow blank screen on my Dish ViP211 for OTA Channel 4 and for E* HD Channel 4 via satellite. When I switched to E* SD Channel 4, I a had a blank violet colored screen, which is consistent with an overall and total loss of KCNC-DT's DTV signal (both SD and HD).

The published conversion schedule is here, but is dated July 2008. I have only assumed that the conversion occurred in September as planned, since they are running out of time.
http://mstv.org/docs/sattransschedule.pdf

I missed all the fun yesterday. I was watching the Broncos on 5-1 out of Cheyenne so I could easily flip to the Pitts/Dallas game on 27. I have a separate antenna pointed at Cheyenne for 5-1, 27, and 11-1(when they choose to transmit). I just plain lucked out! :)
Dawg - I can get 5-1 in Cheyenne but I've never heard of channel 27. You mean it is another Cheyenne station? And it's HD? What are the call letters of the station? Is it as strong as 5-1?
What is ch 11?
Are the Cheyenne stations full power?

Channel 27 in Cheyenne is KLWY. It's on a very low power STA on channel 28 right now but will flash cut to full power on channel 27 at analog cutoff. I doubt you'd be able to receive it in Conifer but you might be able to after they flash cut.

KGWN Cheyenne 5-1 is at full power. Channel 11 is KQCK, which should map to channel 33-1 but doesn't. Remapping is a minor problem for a station that can't manage to stay on the air. If it was on the air KQCK is near full power. They have requested a slight increase in power, about 10%, and I haven't checked recently to see if that request was granted. If the station isn't on the air, I guess the level of ERP is a rather moot point.

I just took readings (12-7-2008 @ 7:15PM) with my Dish TR40 connected to my 2nd floor closet mounted(about 25 feet above groud level) Channel Master 3010 Stealth Antenna from my home near Tamarisk & Washington in Louisville overlooking the Tamarisk open space to the South.

Station Current Typical
04-1___73-74__93-98
07-1___85-90__91-96
09-1___80-81__78-80
20-1___76-80__90-96

The current level for KCNC 4-1 looks like the readings when they were using the primary antenna between 11-15-08 and 12-1-08.

It looks like 4-1, KCNC-DT changed its antenna sometime between 10AM and 12:30 PM today, 12/9/08. My new level is in the low 90s. It was in the low 70s ealier this morning and during checks during the day and night on Monday.

The levels on 20-1, KTVD are still in the 70s. I guess I'll have to give them a call or email.

It looks like 4-1, KCNC-DT changed its antenna sometime between 10AM and 12:30 PM today, 12/9/08. My new level is in the low 90s. It was in the low 70s ealier this morning and during checks during the day and night on Monday.

The levels on 20-1, KTVD are still in the 70s. I guess I'll have to give them a call or email.

I had readings in the mid-80s this morning for 4-1, but now I'm back to the mid-70s (77). My weak signals are 2-1 (70), 4-1, and 6-1 (72). No problem with any of my other DTV channels (7 @ 94, 9 @ 87, 12 @ 95 (this is usually at 100, so it is down 5%), 14 @ 90, 20 @ 88, and 31 @ 90). I know what the KRMA problem is, but I'm frustrated with KWGN and KCNC. KWGN has been consistently 10 points lower than its readings last summer (I don't remember exactly when things changed, but it seems like in the past 2 months) and KCNC kicks up into the mid-80s at certain times only to return to the mid-70s or worse. Based on my readings, I can't tell which antenna setup KCNC is currently using, but whichever, it isn't to my advantage here.

I got some word back from engineering responsible for 20-1 KTVD and 9-1 KUSA.

On Sunday around 2:00PM they lost the aux antenna on Lookout Mountain.
At the time of the failure KTVD, KCNC, and KMGH were on the aux antenna.
KCNC and KTVD moved to the main antenna on the top of the tower which has a pattern problem which effects an angle that Louisville falls on. KUSA uses the main antenna, but at low power. I presume that means they put most of the power into the eastern panels of the antenna which results in a decent signal for Louisville.

I was informed there are crews on site, on the tower, attempting a repair.

When they get the current problem solved, they will work on the pattern problem with the main antenna.

It looks like 4-1, KCNC-DT changed its antenna sometime between 10AM and 12:30 PM today, 12/9/08. My new level is in the low 90s. It was in the low 70s ealier this morning and during checks during the day and night on Monday.

The levels on 20-1, KTVD are still in the 70s. I guess I'll have to give them a call or email.

KCNC has gone bad again. I had a recording going of NCIS on my DVDR3576 which has a pretty sensitive tuner, and the last few minutes were unwatchable.
Also, KTVD is still very weak.

What antenna do you use for the Cheyenne reception and how is it hooked up with your other antenna? I would like to receive those stations, but a high-gain antenna pointed at Lookout just doesn't cut the mustard.

It's just an old uhf/vhf combo antenna from the 80's I think. I found it in my attic when I moved in 6 years ago. I have it on a separate coax run and a manual coax switch at the back of tv. It isn't hooked up to my main antenna. If I hadn't had to buy multiple line amps over the years because of water damage, I'd probably put an amp on this 2nd antenna. I'm just gonna wait till transition to see if it can pick up 27-1. It easily picks up 5-1, 22-1 and 11-1 without an amp now, 27 is a little snowy but very watchable.

Dawg - I can get 5-1 in Cheyenne but I've never heard of channel 27. You mean it is another Cheyenne station? And it's HD? What are the call letters of the station? Is it as strong as 5-1?
What is ch 11?
Are the Cheyenne stations full power?

Just to clarify, 27 is not digital(what you meant by HD). They are currently running a very low power digital transmission on 28-1 and will switch to 27-1 on transition in February like milehighmike said.

Channel 27 in Cheyenne is KLWY. It's on a very low power STA on channel 28 right now but will flash cut to full power on channel 27 at analog cutoff. I doubt you'd be able to receive it in Conifer but you might be able to after they flash cut.

KGWN Cheyenne 5-1 is at full power. Channel 11 is KQCK, which should map to channel 33-1 but doesn't. Remapping is a minor problem for a station that can't manage to stay on the air. If it was on the air KQCK is near full power. They have requested a slight increase in power, about 10%, and I haven't checked recently to see if that request was granted. If the station isn't on the air, I guess the level of ERP is a rather moot point.

These are some good answers, thanks!

KCNC has gone bad again. I had a recording going of NCIS on my DVDR3576 which has a pretty sensitive tuner, and the last few minutes were unwatchable.
Also, KTVD is still very weak.

I've got KCNC at 75% and KTVD at 82%, they must be back to that configuration that leaves Louisville out in the cold. Was going to watch NOVA tonight, but there is some other show about finances on. Is KRMA not showing the PBS-HD feed again? Has this been the norm?

We have an answer.

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/prefill_and_display.pl?Application_id=1283703&Service=DS&Form_id=911&Facility_id=68581

ON DECEMBER 7, 2008, THE SIDE-MOUNTED KTVD DTV ANTENNA EXPERIENCED CATASTROPHIC FAILURE AND WAS TAKEN OUT OF SERVICE. TO MAINTAIN BROADCAST SERVICE TO THE PUBLIC, THE LICENSEE COMMENCED OPERATION PURSUANT TO THE EMERGENCY ANTENNA PROVISIONS IN THE FCC RULES (SECTION 73.1680) USING A TOP-MOUNTED UHF ANTENNA ON THE SAME TOWER. KTVD HOLDS A CONSTRUCTION PERMIT TO OPERATE FULLTIME WITH THE TOP-MOUNTED ANTENNA, BUT THE ANTENNA MUST BE RECONFIGURED IN ORDER TO COMPLETE CONSTRUCTION PURSUANT TO THE CP.

CURRENTLY THE LICENSEE IS OPERATING WITH THE POWER AUTHORIZED FOR THE SIDE-MOUNT ANTENNA (3.2 KW TPO), WHICH PRODUCES 117 KW ERP. LICENSEE HEREIN REQUESTS AUTHORITY TO OPERATE WITH INCREASED POWER, WHILE MAINTAINING ITS CONTOURS WITHIN THE CONTOURS AUTHORIZED IN THE KTVD CP. THE REQUESTED POWER IS 900 KW ERP (24.6 KW TPO). A MAP AND ENGINEERING STATEMENT ARE ATTACHED IN SUPPORT OF THE INSTANT PROPOSAL.

- Trip

I'm in Lafayette. Did anyone else lose KMGH, 7-1 completely this evening? Was unable to Tivo HD versions of According To Jim and Eli Stone so had to settle for crappy SD version from DirecTV. Its been a long time since I've watched the SD versions of our HD locals from DirecTV. I'd forgotten just how bad they are!

Is KRMA not showing the PBS-HD feed again? Has this been the norm?

Same question here - does KRMA *ever* emit HD signals? I'm pretty late to the party, but I wasn't able to find any programming marked as HD in their own guide. They seem to be running some HDTV primer shows, too.

KCNC-DT and KRMA-DT are about the same strength for me tonight - around 62/100 - much like what I used to see post-11/18 when they were using their main antenna.

KMGH-DT's level is lower too, but about the same as KUSA-DT's around 73/100.

Compare to Saturday when KCNC-DT, KMGH-DT and KTVD-DT were all at 98/100.

As a control, KWGN-DT remains at 100/100, KDVR-DT at 96/100.

Same question here - does KRMA *ever* emit HD signals? I'm pretty late to the party, but I wasn't able to find any programming marked as HD in their own guide. They seem to be running some HDTV primer shows, too.

I thought I read something here about that, but I can't find it. From what I remember reading (wherever it was), Starting in early December KRMA is now broadcasting the same programming that they show on their analog service on 6.1, so they are no longer showing HD programming in the evening. My understanding is that they intend to go to 3 subchannels in January and restore the HD programming (although it will be compressed even more if they are running two SD subchannels and one HD subchannel at the same time).

We have an answer.
http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/prefill_and_display.pl?Application_id=1283703&Service=DS&Form_id=911&Facility_id=68581


Further fun details from the attachment:

On December 7, 2008 at 2:15 PM, the antenna employed for BMPCDT-20080422ABE failed. Technical representatives of the applicant reported to the undersigned their belief that the antenna has “burned up”. Remedial measures to determine the cause of the failure are underway. The antenna manufacturer’s technical representative is expected on site on December 9, 2008 to determine the cause of the failure and what remedial steps are needed.

I can't get KMGH-HD via antenna. I haven't been able to get it here in Arvada for the last 3 or 4 days. I can get it thriugh "Direct Tv". I can get the other local stations via antenna (except channel 6)

I've had the same situation here in Highlands Ranch with KMGH. I might have to go into the attic to move the antenna.

I can't get KMGH-HD via antenna. I haven't been able to get it here in Arvada for the last 3 or 4 days. I can get it through "Direct Tv". I can get the other local stations via antenna (except channel 6)

I was shocked this morning to find all my signals higher than normal. KMGH reached 100/100 for the first time ever. KCNC was in the low/mid 80s. KBDI was back to 100/100. KUSA topped 90 for the first time since they moved to LOM. KWGN remained in the mid-70s, but that is better than the high 60s to low 70s I have been seeing and I was able to maintain channel lock from 7:30 AM through 9:00 AM for the morning news.

All this wild variation whenever a given channel has a broadcasting change leads me to believe that there is some interference going on between the LOM LCG broadcasters and between KCNC and KWGN. Some of that will go away when 7 and 9 go back to VHF, but I do think it is a factor now. I also think that my reception of KWGN's (34) relatively strong signal is being affected by KCNC's (35) strong signal output, which is an adjacent UHF channel, with KWGN physically behind KCNC's LOM tower from my location. Co-channel interference? Now these signal descrepancies are most notable on my Dish ViP211, which unfortunately is the receiver for my primary HDTV. I see the discrepancies somewhat less (though KWGN's weak signal and KCNC's weaker than should be signal are still the big problems) on my year old Samsung LCD HDTV. So, the quality of the ATSC tuner has some affect, but it isn't the whole story.

Update: At 11 AM all my signal readings are down a couple of points or more from the 9 AM readings. KMGH is at 98, KUSA at 88, KCNC at 77, and KWGN at 70. Early morning readings seem to be best for all channels except KWGN, which seems to do its best in late evening.

Location-wise I'm at 68th and Taft Circle (just west of 68th and Simms).

KCNC-DT and KRMA-DT are about the same strength for me tonight - around 62/100 - much like what I used to see post-11/18 when they were using their main antenna.

KMGH-DT's level is lower too, but about the same as KUSA-DT's around 73/100.

Compare to Saturday when KCNC-DT, KMGH-DT and KTVD-DT were all at 98/100.

As a control, KWGN-DT remains at 100/100, KDVR-DT at 96/100.

You mentioned KRMA-DT in the first line. Was that just a typo? That would be very understanable since we are so used to talking about the terrible KRMA-DT signal here in Louisville.

I presume you meant to say:
KCNC-DT and KTVD-DT are about the same strength for me tonight - around 62/100

That would make our exexperiences very similar, as I would expect.

I saw a signal from KCEC on RF channel 51 for the first time, but it appears to have disappeared. My guess is that they are getting ready to go on the air with their digital service.

And we wonder why KQCK-DT 11-1 continues to be off the air.....

http://www.arkansasbusiness.com:80/article.aspx?aID=110706.54928.122829&view=all&link=perm

KQCK-DT is owned by Equity Media of Little Rock, Arkansas, and according to the linked story, Equity has filed for bankruptcy reorganization to protect its holdings, which includes 121 television stations in 41 states.

I was just flipping through the channels and noticed KQCK-DT 11-1 is back on the air. For how long, I guess will see.

Tim

I am shocked that my Zenith CECB can now lock on KQCK. In the past (when they were on the air), I could see movement on the signal meter but no program lock.

And we wonder why KQCK-DT 11-1 continues to be off the air.....

http://www.arkansasbusiness.com:80/article.aspx?aID=110706.54928.122829&view=all&link=perm

KQCK-DT is owned by Equity Media of Little Rock, Arkansas, and according to the linked story, Equity has filed for bankruptcy reorganization to protect its holdings, which includes 121 television stations in 41 states.

Here's an opportunity for KRMA to cover Northern Colorado. Yeah, right!

Last night during the back to back Two and One Half Men, KWGN-DT had terrible sound issues with a couple second delay on the audio channels during commercials.

Tonight the CBS Evening News in not in HD on KCNC-DT.

I does not look like Denver is ready for digital yet. :(

I does not look like Denver is ready for digital yet. :(There is still a couple of months left for them to get their acts together. Maybe when they no longer have to support both digital and analog, the engineers can concentrate on the digital and make it right.

Anyone got any ideas as to why I've lost KMGH-DT (7-1) via OTA these past couple of days but all of the other channels (2-1, 4-1, 6-1, 6-x, 9-1, 12-x, 20-1, 31-1) are all working just fine. I don't recall anyone else mentioning losing KNMGH this week. I'm in S. Lafayette. As I'm currently Tivoing stuff on other channels I don't wan't to interrupt them to check signal levels on my HR10-250.

Anyone got any ideas as to why I've lost KMGH-DT (7-1) via OTA these past couple of days but all of the other channels (2-1, 4-1, 6-1, 6-x, 9-1, 12-x, 20-1, 31-1) are all working just fine. I don't recall anyone else mentioning losing KNMGH this week. I'm in S. Lafayette. As I'm currently Tivoing stuff on other channels I don't wan't to interrupt them to check signal levels on my HR10-250.

They lost their primary antenna on Sunday and haven't fully recovered. I have received 7.1 since the lost.

Prospect for recycling KQCK-DT as an RMPBS translator:

Here's an opportunity for KRMA to cover Northern Colorado. Yeah, right!

No sane person should get anywhere near Equity Media until it is in full receivership and its assets are sold off. They are WAY too crazy.


Jim McCauley

I sent this message today to Greg Coons, one of the local FCC folks.


Jim McCauley

---------------------------

Greg:

I met you after your DTV presentation at the library in Fort Collins in September.

Back in analog TV days, co-channel interference mattered because bandpass filters in TV sets could not be made sharp enough to exclude interference from, say, channel 7 on any prospective channel 8 in the same market.

However, today in Denver, there are UHF DTV channels operating on digital channels 15, 16, 17, 18 and 19. With digital technology, is co-channel interference irrelevant? If so, that could open up a lot of very valuable high-band VHF real estate for DTV transmission.

In the Denver area alone, after the transition in February 2009 we will have transmitters on VHF digital channels 7, 9 and 13. Digital channel 11 is occasionally occupied by the erratic KQCK-DT, which broadcasts irregularly from Horsetooth Mountain near Fort Collins.

Given the apparent success of co-channel operation on the UHF band in our region, might the Commission consider licensing digital channels 8, 10 and 12 (soon to be abandoned by analog KBDI for digital operation on VHF 13) for digital operation? Whoever secured such licenses would be able to offer wide coverage at low power cost.


Jim McCauley
Fort Collins CO

---------------------------

Channels 8 and 10 are out because of stations in Colorado Springs.

Channel 12 is out due to KQCK-DT 11 (otherwise KBDI would be on 12 and not 13).

The word you're looking for is "adjacent channel" whereas co-channel is same channel. Co-channel interference is like KKTV-11 (analog) interfering with KQCK-DT 11. They're on the same channel.

Stations can only be side-by-side if they're within 14 miles of each other. KQCK-DT 11, being located where it is near Fort Collins, makes use of 10 or 12 impossible in Denver.

- Trip

I am shocked that my Zenith CECB can now lock on KQCK. In the past (when they were on the air), I could see movement on the signal meter but no program lock.

I think they must have increased their power this time. I seem to be getting a much stronger signal from them than I've ever gotten before. The last time they were up, the best signal I could manage was about 30%. Now they're coming in at about 70%. I can even pick them up on my DTVPal which I've never been able to see them on before because it won't show anything below about 60%. I can live with this. Hope it lasts!!

Anyone got any ideas as to why I've lost KMGH-DT (7-1) via OTA these past couple of days but all of the other channels (2-1, 4-1, 6-1, 6-x, 9-1, 12-x, 20-1, 31-1) are all working just fine. I don't recall anyone else mentioning losing KNMGH this week. I'm in S. Lafayette. As I'm currently Tivoing stuff on other channels I don't wan't to interrupt them to check signal levels on my HR10-250.

It is odd that you and one or two others have been reporting problems with receiving KMGH-DT since Sunday, while I'm getting the strongest readings ever for that channel (e.g., at one point today they were 100/100 and are averaging in the mid to high 90s). Strange that the work-around to the antenna problems on Sunday has actually improved my reception on 3 of the 4 channels broadcasting from the LCG tower on LOM.

KUSA's CP for 45kW on 9 for post-transition operations was granted. They were previously granted 6kW.

The grant also includes a circular polarized antenna.

The following is an engineering statement. The maps starting on page 8 may be of interest.

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/getattachment_exh.cgi?exhibit_id=699988

It is also interesting to note that KUSA had to justify loss of service to the West, over the mountains.

I saw a signal from KCEC on RF channel 51 for the first time, but it appears to have disappeared. My guess is that they are getting ready to go on the air with their digital service.

I've had KCEC-DT in periodically since a year ago (last summer), but they are running reduced power. On transition day, they are suppose to go to full power. You probably had a day with some signal enhancement (tropo), which brought the signal level up. I've got them running about 30% signal right now. If I turn the antenna away from Lookout Mtn. and point it more to the south, they pop in without any breakup.

It is odd that you and one or two others have been reporting problems with receiving KMGH-DT since Sunday, while I'm getting the strongest readings ever for that channel (e.g., at one point today they were 100/100 and are averaging in the mid to high 90s). Strange that the work-around to the antenna problems on Sunday has actually improved my reception on 3 of the 4 channels broadcasting from the LCG tower on LOM.

I don't typically watch OTA, but I am currently receiving KMGH-DT without any significant issues (small breakups - probably typical with my "antenna"). MartyD27 (also in HR) posted he was having problems receiving them; I don't know if that's still the case. If so, maybe he's on the other side of the Ranch from me.

My HR10-250 thinks KMGH-DT is at Frequency # 17 which is showing a signal strength of 0-20 bouncing, whereas KCNC-DT, KUSA-DT, etc. are solid up in the nineties (I'm still pointed at RP). I checked all Frequencies (2-69) and could not find KMGH-DT anywhere. Up until yesterday evening I had been receiving KMGH-DT with no problems since it was originally atop RP way back when. Fwiw, I have a 4' Yagi (UHF only), no pre-amp. All other OTA channels are coming in just fine.

I don't typically watch OTA, but I am currently receiving KMGH-DT without any significant issues (small breakups - probably typical with my "antenna"). MartyD27 (also in HR) posted he was having problems receiving them; I don't know if that's still the case. If so, maybe he's on the other side of the Ranch from me.

I'm right by Highlands Ranch High School. And I haven't seen channel 7 at all since Sunday. My wife thinks we should just buy a new antenna. Any suggestions?

I was shocked this morning to find all my signals higher than normal. KMGH reached 100/100 for the first time ever. KCNC was in the low/mid 80s. KBDI was back to 100/100. KUSA topped 90 for the first time since they moved to LOM. KWGN remained in the mid-70s, but that is better than the high 60s to low 70s I have been seeing and I was able to maintain channel lock from 7:30 AM through 9:00 AM for the morning news.

All this wild variation whenever a given channel has a broadcasting change leads me to believe that there is some interference going on between the LOM LCG broadcasters and between KCNC and KWGN. Some of that will go away when 7 and 9 go back to VHF, but I do think it is a factor now. I also think that my reception of KWGN's (34) relatively strong signal is being affected by KCNC's (35) strong signal output, which is an adjacent UHF channel, with KWGN physically behind KCNC's LOM tower from my location. Co-channel interference? Now these signal descrepancies are most notable on my Dish ViP211, which unfortunately is the receiver for my primary HDTV. I see the discrepancies somewhat less (though KWGN's weak signal and KCNC's weaker than should be signal are still the big problems) on my year old Samsung LCD HDTV. So, the quality of the ATSC tuner has some affect, but it isn't the whole story.


I think the reason for the increased signal was probably tropospheric ducting/refraction/scatter. I was able to receive KCEC in Fort Collins this morning. At first I thought perhaps this was the first whiff of their post-transition facility on Lookout Mountain. However, after reviewing their FCC applications it looks like they are not expecting to be ready at Lookout Mountain until mid January. So what I actually got was probably their 10 KW temporary facility that is down by Castle Rock. There's no way under normal conditions I should be able to get that channel, i.e. I needed some help with atmospheric conditions.

I just checked KMGH's signal - it registers 74 on my E* ViP222 receiver. I think that's lower than usual, but I don't watch much ABC programming, so I don't pay attention to KMGH much. I'm in HR a couple of blocks north of Summit View Elementary School.

Stations can only be side-by-side if they're within 14 miles of each other. KQCK-DT 11, being located where it is near Fort Collins, makes use of 10 or 12 impossible in Denver.


Is that the rule for VHF only, or does that apply to UHF? I'm just wondering about KDEN (25.1, RF Channel 29) and KGWN (5.1, RF Channel 30). They are more than 14 miles apart, and their service contours overlap.

KDEN is 69 miles from KGWN. The FCC requirement is 68 miles before a station can be on an adjacent channel if it's more than 14 miles. This piece of my site will answer these sorts of questions:

http://www.rabbitears.info/faq.php#avail_channels

Now there are exceptions to the rule, in congested areas mainly. It's really bad in the northeast.

- Trip

Hey folks, KMGH is broadcasting from Lookout Mountain on RF7 right now. I think KUSA is doing so also (on RF channel 9), but at much weaker levels.

EDIT: KMGH is coming in fine for me, at about the same levels as I was getting them on RF17 before last Sunday. If this is their max power then I can live with it. KUSA is broadcasting on RF9, I get very brief momentary locks, but really nothing else. Luckily they were just approved for more power (45kW), but the grant says they can't use that until Feb 17, 2009. So I'm not too worried about KUSA once they move to 45KW, and I'm not worried about KMGH anymore.

Note, KMGH did go off the air for a minute around 3AM and came back again a few minutes later on RF7 with a lower signal that occasionally cut out for me. I don't know if they decreased power or tried an alternate antenna, or both. KUSA may have changed at the same time, because now I can't even get a momentary lock. I thought perhaps they had stopped testing, but their analog signal has not returned, so they are probably following an identical testing regimen as KMGH.

FINAL EDIT: KMGH went off the air at 4:20 AM on RF channel 7.

Do the transport streams look any different?

- Trip

Do the transport streams look any different?

- Trip
I can't get the transport stream for KUSA on RF9. I'm still having trouble locking them, and I'm trying to determine if I'm misinterpreting what my DTVpal is showing me, i.e. whether or not I am getting it on my DTVpal or not. My DTT900 puts both 7.1's and 7.27's and 9.1's and 9.2's together, and on the DTT900 I also can't get a good level on one of the 9.1's and 9.2's. So I think the DTVpal is lying to me about which channel it is actually showing..

Anyway the transport stream for RF7 is identical. My bet is that they are taking the same feed from the studio and sending it to both their RF7 and RF17 transmitters.

9-1 and 7-1 came blasting in for me.

In fact KUSA-DT on VHF 9 gave me one of the few 100/100 signals I've ever seen from my S3 TiVo.

KMGH-DT was about 98-99/100 on VHF 7, where their UHF signal is usually around 97/100.

Of course, KCNC-DT is still weak, so they must still be using their main antenna at low power.

Don't you all ever sleep?

9-1 and 7-1 came blasting in for me.

In fact KUSA-DT on VHF 9 gave me one of the few 100/100 signals I've ever seen from my S3 TiVo.

KMGH-DT was about 98-99/100 on VHF 7, where their UHF signal is usually around 97/100.

Of course, KCNC-DT is still weak, so they must still be using their main antenna at low power.IIRC, I live 2-3 miles away from you so I don't understand why you can have an almost 100 strong signal and I can't get KMGH. Are you still using that 3' Yagi UHF antenna from Radio Shack?

Also, whats with the mention of VHF? Is that my problem? Do I need to get a VHF antenna?

I'm thinking of going OTA. Is anyone else here from the far south part of Littleton called Roxborough who can speak to the reception quality?

I've been looking at the CM 4221HD or 4228HD, but I'm pretty sure I'll have to put it on a huge mast to reach over my neighbors.

I'm planning to use the HDHomeRun to tune, and then feed my MythTV backend.

Just curious -- are you guys getting DD5.1 in these HD streams?

BTW, this is my first post. :)

I'm right by Highlands Ranch High School. And I haven't seen channel 7 at all since Sunday. My wife thinks we should just buy a new antenna. Any suggestions?

I'm southeast of Thunder Ridge HS. Probably a little lower elevation, but I do have good line of sight to Lookout. My "antenna" is essentially 2' of wire with an F-connector on the end. I'll try to remember to check the signal strength tonight (signal meter in the TV, nothing fancy). From the other posts, it doesn't sound like you should change hardware based on the current state of the signals.

I'm thinking of going OTA. Is anyone else here from the far south part of Littleton called Roxborough who can speak to the reception quality?

Welcome to the forum, kilt. Since I'm in a different location, I can't offer much help, although my only advice would be to start small, maybe even with an indoor antenna (something you can easily return if it doesn't work). Reception in Roxborough could be highly variable, depending on whether you're in the Park or the Village (former would have more trouble with OTA than the latter).

IIRC, I live 2-3 miles away from you so I don't understand why you can have an almost 100 strong signal and I can't get KMGH. Are you still using that 3' Yagi UHF antenna from Radio Shack?

Also, whats with the mention of VHF? Is that my problem? Do I need to get a VHF antenna?

KMGH and KUSA were running tests of their digital signals on their post-transition frequencies of 7 and 9 VHF respectively overnight.

That having been said, I never have any issues seeing KMGH on their normal frequency, either. In fact, they're almost always my strongest signal from Lookout.

I'm not using a small Yagi anymore but rather I'm back to my normal RS VU-120XR VHF/UHF antenna pointed at Lookout (but still in my attic):

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/VU120.gif

Do any of the PBS stations here broadcast in HD? I can get 12 digital signals but they do not seem to be HD, and 6 digital does not come in here at my house (signal is noted via my Sony TV but not strong enough to be shown)

Welcome to the forum, kilt. Since I'm in a different location, I can't offer much help, although my only advice would be to start small, maybe even with an indoor antenna (something you can easily return if it doesn't work). Reception in Roxborough could be highly variable, depending on whether you're in the Park or the Village (former would have more trouble with OTA than the latter).

Ok, I'll try the indoor first. I'm actually on the west side of the Villlage, along the hogback.

Who wants to recommend an indoor model?

I'll let everyone know how it goes!

FWIW 7.1 has never been quite as strong others from LOM but watchable on most of my boxes. A couple of days ago (and last night too) I noticed I can not get anything. I am North East of LOM abt 40 miles. Will check tonight.

Do any of the PBS stations here broadcast in HD? I can get 12 digital signals but they do not seem to be HD, and 6 digital does not come in here at my house (signal is noted via my Sony TV but not strong enough to be shown)

KRMA does
KBDI does not (yet)

AFAIK, KBDI is going to start broadcasting HD programming starting sometime in 2009.

Who wants to recommend an indoor model?

Rabbit ears are rabbit ears: You need an antenna capable of receiving VHF (the rabbit ears) and UHF (a loop in between the dipoles). Don't buy anything with an amplifier in it; amps magnify any reception issues along with the signals. Keep it as inexpensive as you can -- check the dollar stores or Big Lots first. Definitely don't spend any more than 30 bucks, and make sure you can take it back if need be per gakon's advice.

9-1 and 7-1 came blasting in for me.

In fact KUSA-DT on VHF 9 gave me one of the few 100/100 signals I've ever seen from my S3 TiVo.

KMGH-DT was about 98-99/100 on VHF 7, where their UHF signal is usually around 97/100.

Of course, KCNC-DT is still weak, so they must still be using their main antenna at low power.
Glad to hear the news about the 9-1 and 7-1 tests on VHF. If they come in strong for you, I expect the same for me. I am curious what will happen when KBDI-DT moves to VHF.

For 4-1 KCNC-DT and 20-1 KTVD-TV, I don't think the Louisville problem is antenna power level. I was told that after the Sunday failure of the AUX antenna, which they were both using at the time, they both switched to the main antenna. The same source indicated that 7-1 KMGH-DT was also on the AUX antenna during the Sunday failure, but did not indicate what antenna they moved to.

As I understand it (and I would not bet anything on whether I really understand it correctly), the main antenna has 5 panels in a circular pattern at equal 72 degree spacing. The west panel, at 270 deg is not powered (At least by KCNC). The two northern panels would fall at 342 deg and 54 deg. When they are driven with equal signals, which is what the KCNC-DT 11-15-08 pattern change was about, someone at 18 deg would get equal signal from those 2 panels. According to tvfool.com, here in Louisville, the line from LOM to me is 13 degrees from true North. I presume that if the signal off the 2 panels is not exactly identical, and in perfect phase, the signals interfere, instead of adding. Under the old KCNC-DT pattern, the 54 deg panel signal was much stronger than the 342 deg panel, so it could overwhelm the 342 deg panel if there was a discrepency.

I have heard that there is definitely some sort of problem involving the main antenna. I have not heard when they expect to get it fixed. It appears to effect those of us on the boundary between the two panels. It appears that KCNC-DT and KTVD-DT are both currently applying ballanced power to the 342 and 54 degree panel, which is a problem for the Louisville line. There is plenty of power being applied to the panels, as demonstrted by the reports of strong signals from the people not on the boundary. I don't have a problem with 9-1 KUSA, which also uses the main antenna, but at reduced power. I suspect that they apply lower power to the 342 than the 54 degree panel, which rotates the boundary westward, so Louisville is not effected as much.

As I understand it, and the emergency request from KTVD seems to confirm, this main antenna is supposed to be the final main antenna for KCNC-DT and KTVD-DT so I hope they do get it fixed soon.

Rabbit ears are rabbit ears: You need an antenna capable of receiving VHF (the rabbit ears) and UHF (a loop in between the dipoles). Don't buy anything with an amplifier in it; amps magnify any reception issues along with the signals. Keep it as inexpensive as you can -- check the dollar stores or Big Lots first. Definitely don't spend any more than 30 bucks, and make sure you can take it back if need be per gakon's advice.


Ok will do - thanks!

I'm thinking of going OTA. Is anyone else here from the far south part of Littleton called Roxborough who can speak to the reception quality?

I've been looking at the CM 4221HD or 4228HD, but I'm pretty sure I'll have to put it on a huge mast to reach over my neighbors.

I'm planning to use the HDHomeRun to tune, and then feed my MythTV backend.

Just curious -- are you guys getting DD5.1 in these HD streams?

BTW, this is my first post. :)

kilt88,
Have you input your address or coordinates into this site to get the technical details on DTV reception from your location?

http://www.tvfool.com/

http://www.tvfool.com/index.php?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29

From that data you will know magnetic aiming azimuths, whether or not you have Line Of Sight to a given broadcast tower, and the relative ease with which you should expect to receive a given signal. Of course, nothing replaces real world experimentation, but at least you get some good information from which to start.

February flash cut?

Maybe, maybe not…

Washington—Congress sent President Bush Wednesday a compromise bill that would permit analog TV stations to beam emergency and other information for 30 days beyond the Feb. 17, 2009 transition to all-digital, over-the-air television.

The original house bill sponsored by Lois Capps (D-Ca.) would have required TV stations to participate under a program designed by the Federal Communications Commission. But the bill awaiting Bush's signature makes TV station compliance strictly voluntary as a result of changes made in the Senate to the bill sponsored by Sen. Jay Rockefeller (D-W.Va.)

"Coupled with our billion dollar campaign to educate Americans on the digital TV transition, this timely legislation will give broadcasters one final resource to ensure that no TV viewer is left behind due to insufficient information," National Association of Broadcasters spokesman Dennis Wharton said last Thursday.

Bush is expected to sign the bill, but a White House press spokeswoman could not confirm that.

Under current law, no full-power TV station is allowed to continue analog broadcasting after Feb. 17. The Capps-Rockefeller bill, at a minimum, extends the analog cut off for 30 days for the limited purpose of broadcasting emergency information and key details about the transition to digital for consumers who could not or would not prepare for the cessation of analog service.

The bill gives the FCC until Jan. 15 to develop the program and "encourage and permit" TV stations to follow it.

"I expect broadcaster participation where technically feasible," said David Donovan, president of the Association of Maximum Service Television, a technology advisory group for local TV stations.

The idea for the legislation came from the FCC's Sept. 8 DTV trial in Wilmington, N.C. After shutting off regular analog service at noon, the market's stations continued to broadcast in analog until Sept. 30, airing just a text message that provided details about the DTV transition that had just occurred.

"Despite saturation advertising announcing the change and a geographic topography most conducive to it, nearly 2,000 households [in Wilmington] woke up to find that their televisions did not work; when extrapolated to the entire nation this could mean that at least 1.5 million households will wake up on February 18 without a working television," Capps said in a House floor statement Wednesday. …

http://www.multichannel.com/article/CA6621973.html

I can easily see the LCG stations just running the crawl on their VHF frequencies and waiting the month to move their digital signals.

kilt88,
Have you input your address or coordinates into this site to get the technical details on DTV reception from your location?

http://www.tvfool.com/

http://www.tvfool.com/index.php?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29

From that data you will know magnetic aiming azimuths, whether or not you have Line Of Sight to a given broadcast tower, and the relative ease with which you should expect to receive a given signal. Of course, nothing replaces real world experimentation, but at least you get some good information from which to start.

Ooh, I hadn't seen tvfool before. Thanks!

February flash cut?

Maybe, maybe not…



I can easily see the LCG stations just running the crawl on their VHF frequencies and waiting the month to move their digital signals.

I don't think that will be allowed. My guess is that this will be targeted toward stations that aren't moving back, like KWGN.

- Trip

KRMA does
KBDI does not (yet)

AFAIK, KBDI is going to start broadcasting HD programming starting sometime in 2009.

Thanks
Dang - wouldn't you know it the one I can not pick up strong enough is the one with HD.(KRMA -6)
Well when (KBDI -12) switches I will be ready

Or I can hope D* starts to carry them

I cant wait for the change to know exactly what channels are going to come through. Allthough my antenna is for backup in the event Comcast ever goes out (which happens whenever Buckley fires up their golf ball tansmitters LOL)

KRMA does
KBDI does not (yet)

AFAIK, KBDI is going to start broadcasting HD programming starting sometime in 2009.

That's good to know that we actually have some hope for PBS-HD.

Hey guys!

I'm looking to pick up a new antenna. I'm in the Frederick/Firestone area (east of Longmont at I-25). Any recommendations?

KRMA-DT seems to be playing around with their sub-channels. Today, 12/12/08, shorthly before 3PM one of my TVs added 6-3. It was labeled Create. I flipped around between 6, 6-1, and 6-3 for about 20 minutes. Sometimes all 3 were different. Sometimes 6-1 and 6-3 were the same. My wild guess is that they are about to switch to a simulcast of 6 on 6-1 and use 6-3 for Create and any othor prior 6-1 programming that was not a simulcast of 6.

I'm looking to pick up a new antenna. I'm in the Frederick/Firestone area (east of Longmont at I-25). Any recommendations?

Head over to www.tvfool.com (http://www.tvfool.com), input your full address, save the resulting report (for post-transition, please) to your hard drive, and then attach it to a follow-up message. Don't worry, the report redacts personal info to the notation "Address: exact." A report will give us a good idea of what you're up against. Also: Just one TV, or will you be splitting the signal among two or more separate rooms? How long do you estimate your cable runs will be?

It is time for 5:00 pm news and KMGH-DT 7.1 is awol again here in North East Longmont. We are beginning to expect it and are ready to switch to analog.

Thanks Don!

Report attached. This will only be for one TV. I should be able to mount it outside, just above my 8-foot fence (I live next to an open space... no houses or trees for about 100 yards). Estimated cable run is less than 20 feet.

Right now I have a cheap set of Radio Shack rabbit ears and I have been able to pick up nearly all of the digital stations (although not all at the same time - I have to move the ears, rings and turn the amplifier on/off).

9.1 and 7.1 are the ones giving me the most problems. Ideally, I would like to be able to pick up those two plus the rest of the basics - 2.1, 4.1, 6.1, 12.1, 20.1 and 31.1.

It is time for 5:00 pm news and KMGH-DT 7.1 is awol again here in North East Longmont. We are beginning to expect it and are ready to switch to analog.

Some people must be in a 'blackhole' for the KMGH-DT signal. I live in Milliken and am pulling about 60% signal, with no break-ups.

Some people must be in a 'blackhole' for the KMGH-DT signal. I live in Milliken and am pulling about 60% signal, with no break-ups.

I'm definitely in a "Black Hole" regarding KMGH since sunday. They were stronger than KUSA before the "problem".
I've got a signal but too weak to decode on my Zenith STB (about 30% or less). Very similar to the signal I see from KRMA.

I could only wish for a LOS like you have in Milliken.

Report attached...

Thanks. Your area is so flat that reception in most places should be a snap. I just needed to make sure you weren't down in a stray gulch.

Please avoid anything amplified thanks to KPXC-DT 59.x. I've never seen TVFool numbers that big. Their noise-margin number is so high that you should be able to pick it up on a bent paper clip! You'd be better off searching online instead of shopping the brick 'n mortar stores. Two alternatives:

* Inexpensive: AntennaCraft HBU-22 for maybe $50. It needs a "balun," a $5 transformer for connecting the coax cable to the antenna's terminals.

* Better: Winegard HD-7694 for ~ $75. It has a built-in balun.

Either one should work fine as long as it's aimed toward the south-southwest from your mounting point. The Winegard offers better gain, construction and durability for the extra cost. Coax cable, baluns, masts and mounting hardware are available online or through local stores. (Mast shipping can get expensive.)

I'm definitely in a "Black Hole" regarding KMGH since sunday. They were stronger than KUSA before the "problem".
I've got a signal but too weak to decode on my Zenith STB (about 30% or less). Very similar to the signal I see from KRMA.

I could only wish for a LOS like you have in Milliken.

Me too. KMGH is completely gone for me (I'm in NW Fort Collins, not too far from Laporte). Fortunately, US Cable now has clear QAM available for it. Otherwise, I'd miss Jeopardy... ;)

My STB shows zero signal strength OTA. :mad:

KMGH is apparently operating on a temporary antenna now and anticipates the primary to be back up by Friday the 19th.

Full story here:
http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/18249365/detail.html#-

Some people must be in a 'blackhole' for the KMGH-DT signal. I live in Milliken and am pulling about 60% signal, with no break-ups.SW Lafayette is apparently in a KMGH black hole also.

I'm wondering if there is really any point me getting out a ladder and trying to tinker with the alignment of my Yagi antenna?

KMGH is apparently operating on a temporary antenna now and anticipates the primary to be back up by Friday the 19th.

Full story here:
http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/18249365/detail.html#-Ah, thankyou. Looks like tinkering with my antenna alignment would probably be a waste of time.
Now I remember why I don't go to web sites like that, way too much clutter and visual pollution!
As for the problems on LO mountain...sCare are probably partying like crazy and wallowing in the problems.

KMGH is apparently operating on a temporary antenna now and anticipates the primary to be back up by Friday the 19th.

Full story here:
http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/18249365/detail.html#-

Sadly, I have the highest signal readings ever for KMGH-DT (94 minimum; often 100/100) now that they are using their temporary antenna. I wonder what it is about the temporary versus the regular antenna that improves my signal and degrades that of others. Wish I could keep that 100/100 signal, but I guess I'll have to sacrifice for the good of the rest of you (LOL).

All of this KMGH stuff is interesting. I had not noticed anything different, maybe because I seldom watch anything on KMGH. I decided to check today. My main antenna is about 55 feet AGL, it is an old RS VU 210. It is pointing maybe 20 degrees off of what it would be to be directly aimed at LM (so I get a good signal for 6 and 12 digitals). All of the LM digital signals are at 96 to 100% ...except KMGH which is at 74% and the lock and picture seem about perfect (no breakups). Now, I am in Bear Valley close to 285 and Sheridan. I can actully see the towers on LM from my roof.
I have a Wintv HVR 2250 in my PC connected to a VU 90 antenna at about 28 feet AGL and pointed directly at LM. The rest of the digital sations from LM show a -20 (interesting that this seesm like it should be +20 because it is more than 100%). KMGH bounces from 40% to 70%, but the card will not display anything when tuned to 7-1. There is a utility with the WinTV software that shows SNR and error rates. All of the rest of the stations show a solid 30 SNR (whatever that means) and zero correctable or uncorrectable errors. KMGH shows under 10 SNR and hugely in the RED for both types of errors. I am going to get up there and check the connections on that small antenna one day. But, it is peculiar that the fact that an antenna just 20 feet or so south and around 20 feet lower won't even let me lock KMGH with a line of sight to the tower.
BTW, it was coming in fine on this setup the last time I checked.... maybe a month ago. I will be interested to see what happens when they get back on their main antenna.

I am just rambling here, but a couple of more data points. I have a Zenith DT990 using a Sliver Sensor that gets ALL of the local DT signals..it hardly gets a sniff from KMGH. Another DT990 connected to the same VU90 gets a good lock. Something is either wrong with the line from the splitter to the 2250, or the WinTV card just sucks as far as its tuner goes!

BTW...what the hell is this spanish speaking station that the DT990 gets that it calls 7-27 ??

Phil

BTW...what the hell is this spanish speaking station that the DT990 gets that it calls 7-27 ??

KZCO-LP / Analog 27 / Azteca America

According to Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KZCO-LP), KZCO and KMGH are sister stations.

Well thanks for that!
I just wonder why the DT990 calls it 7-27. Something in the PSIP I guess...but curious nonetheless!


KZCO-LP / Analog 27 / Azteca America

According to Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KZCO-LP), KZCO and KMGH are sister stations.

Me too. KMGH is completely gone for me.

My STB shows zero signal strength OTA. :mad:
Almost the same for me, except that if I try poking at RF 17 I see the signal twitching below 20%, way too weak to get and weak enough that the PSIP can't be read. I'm down a bit southeast of College and Harmony.

Does anyone understand what's up with KDEN? Nothing new - it's just still busted the same way it's been for months. The signal is strong, but neither of my receivers quite handle it, with different symptoms:

- My Dish receiver scans RF 29, says the display channel should be 25, and puts 25-1 in the channel list; when I try to tune it, I never see anything but a black screen.

- My Directivo HD unit dings at RF channel 29, says the display channel is 25-1 from the "Test Off-Air Signal Strength" menu, puts 29-3 in the channel guide, and 29-3 can't be tuned; but if I enter "29-1" I can actually watch the channel.

Does this confuse other folks' boxes as well?

Rob T

My receivers have problems tuning 3 channels - KTFD, KDEN, and KRMT. My two E* receivers handle each of these stations differently. My ViP 211 tunes KTFD, has video but no audio for KDEN, and tunes KRMT. My ViP222 shows a black screen for KTFD and KDEN, and only has audio for KRMT. My Insignia TV's built in tuner shows a black screen for KTFD, and video only for KDEN, but tunes KRMT. I haven't checked my Accurian receivers or my LCD with rabbit ears in the kitchen.

It's apparent to me that these three channels have some incorrect values in their PSIP data stream. It's equally apparent that they have very few viewers since, if I can't view them, and apparently rthurlow can't either, no one has complained to the stations to fix their PSIP. KRMT still doesn't remap to 41-1 either. I have to wonder if these stations will get on the ball once 2-17-09 comes around and they lose their analog viewers.

As a side note, I turned my antenna towards KQCK this afternoon. The signal strength was in the mid-60's which is lower than the mid-70's I used to get before they "took the summer off". There weren't any dropouts though, the signal was very stable. With it pointed about 90 degrees off of LM's direction, which should be in a deep null, I was still able to pick up 2-1, 4-1, 6-1, 7-1, 9-1, 20-1, and 31-1 with no problems, although the signal strengths were down about 20 points.

I'm wondering if there is really any point me getting out a ladder and trying to tinker with the alignment of my Yagi antenna?

Apparently there must be something geographic as after the meltdown KMGH-DT is the strongest signal of the three LCG majors I receive with KUSA-DT still being a bit weaker, and KCNC-DT being weaker still.

For reference on my TiVo S3, KMGH-DT is around 83/100, KUSA-DT 73/100, KCNC-DT 60/100.

As an aside, their use of their main antenna means I once again lose KCNC-DT completely most mornings between about 8:00 AM and 10:15 AM.

I've never had any problems with KDEN. It's antenna is reasonably close to me and I receive it off the side of my directional antenna. I believe that if I pointed the antenna at KDEN's antenna, I would overload my preamp.

KCNC is still the weakest of the LM signals that I get. It occasionally pixilates, while none of the others do.

I have no problem getting KTFD.

Thanks. Your area is so flat that reception in most places should be a snap. I just needed to make sure you weren't down in a stray gulch.

Please avoid anything amplified thanks to KPXC-DT 59.x. I've never seen TVFool numbers that big. Their noise-margin number is so high that you should be able to pick it up on a bent paper clip! You'd be better off searching online instead of shopping the brick 'n mortar stores. Two alternatives:

* Inexpensive: AntennaCraft HBU-22 for maybe $50. It needs a "balun," a $5 transformer for connecting the coax cable to the antenna's terminals.

* Better: Winegard HD-7694 for ~ $75. It has a built-in balun.

Either one should work fine as long as it's aimed toward the south-southwest from your mounting point. The Winegard offers better gain, construction and durability for the extra cost. Coax cable, baluns, masts and mounting hardware are available online or through local stores. (Mast shipping can get expensive.)

Thanks for the info! I ended up ordering a Clearstream2... anybody have any experience with this model? I'll report back when I get it all hooked up.

Still no KMGH-DT here in SW Lafayette! :confused:

Apparently there must be something geographic as after the meltdown KMGH-DT is the strongest signal of the three LCG majors I receive with KUSA-DT still being a bit weaker, and KCNC-DT being weaker still.

For reference on my TiVo S3, KMGH-DT is around 83/100, KUSA-DT 73/100, KCNC-DT 60/100.

As an aside, their use of their main antenna means I once again lose KCNC-DT completely most mornings between about 8:00 AM and 10:15 AM.

I haven't been able to get an update in a while, but I was told that 4-1, KCNC, 7-1 KMGH, and 20-1 KTVD were all on the AUX antenna when it failed last Sunday. That souce said that KCNC and KTVD moved to the main antenna after the failure of the AUX antenna. He asid that 9-1 KUSA was already on the main antenna. He did not say what antenna KMGH moved to. He also said there is a problem with the main antenna.

I suspect that all 4 LOM stations are on the main antenna. I was told that KCNC was applying equal signal to the 2 northern panels of the main antenna when they created the Louisville dead zone back on Nov 15. I suspect that KCNC and KTVD are both doing that at this time creating the problem in Louisville. I suspect that KUSA is applying more power to the eastern of the northern panels, which rotates their dead zone to the west, and it may not be effecting a lot of people that are used to receiving the digital stations on LOM. It sounds like KMGH may be applying more power to the western of the northern panels, which would rotate the dead zone to the east, and mess up Layette, instead of Louisville.

This is mostly speculation on my part. It would be nice if the stations would share their best understanding of the current situation, and what they plan to do and when. The LCG does have a web page they could use, if they wanted to tell their viewers, rather than have us speculating, and possibly making changes to antenna systems that are not the correct thing to do from a long term point of view. If I were a decision maker in that LCG, I would feel guilty if viewers wasted time or money making changes that were not going to be of a long term benefit. I would feel really guilty if someone was injured trying to adjust an antenna, if I knew the attempts were futile.

Anyone else on here in Lafayatte? If so, are you currently able to get KMGH or not?

I would feel really guilty if someone was injured trying to adjust an antenna, if I knew the attempts were futile.

But on the other hand, maximizing reception from their transmitter is their job.

If they aren't going to do that they may as well save millions of dollars in electricity costs and say "get cable or satellite."

We all know how hard this is, but it's not going to matter one whit to Aunt Betty when NTSC is shut off and she can't pick up a particular station anymore. :(

... If I were a decision maker in that LCG, I would feel guilty if viewers wasted time or money making changes that were not going to be of a long term benefit. I would feel really guilty if someone was injured trying to adjust an antenna, if I knew the attempts were futile.

But on the other hand, maximizing reception from their transmitter is their job.

If they aren't going to do that they may as well save millions of dollars in electricity costs and say "get cable or satellite."

We all know how hard this is, but it's not going to matter one whit to Aunt Betty when NTSC is shut off and she can't pick up a particular station anymore. :(
I realize now that I may not have been clear. The someone I was concerned about getting injured was a viewer climbing up on their roof or working in their attic to try to adjust their antenna, because the viewer does know that such efforts are futile because the problem is at the transmitter end, and the stations have have chosen to not keep the viewers informed about the problems the stations have and are quite aware of.

I realize now that I may not have been clear. The someone I was concerned about getting injured was a viewer climbing up on their roof or working in their attic to try to adjust their antenna, because the viewer does know that such efforts are futile because the problem is at the transmitter end, and the stations have have chosen to not keep the viewers informed about the problems the stations have and are quite aware of.Absolutely! I'm an aging viewer that belongs at the bottom of a ladder, not the top, or better still - on the couch, and it would piss me off no end to go up a ladder and tinker with my antenna only to discover that it makes no difference because the problem is at the transmitter. I had less problems when KMGH was hampster-powered on RP than it is now on LOM. So much for progress!

I was told that KCNC was applying equal signal to the 2 northern panels of the main antenna when they created the Louisville dead zone back on Nov 15.

Very odd indeed. I wonder if they had a phasing error, and that created a null.


Jim McCauley

Very odd indeed. I wonder if they had a phasing error, and that created a null.


Jim McCauley

That is the sort of thing I was guessing, but my transmission classes were over 40 years ago, and I never worked in that area. RF was something I tried to keep out of the equipment I worked with and designed.

I believe some readings taken in Louisville showed 20 db difference between the AUX antenna and the main antenna. Assuming that was a power ratio, that means the signal off the AUX antenna was 100 times the power of the signal off the main entenna. I got the impression that a receiver aligned with either of the panels would barely see a difference between the antennas.

I remember looking at the table and plot for one of the LCG antennas, and it predicted a peak signal at 18 degrees. That would be midway between 342 and 54 degrees. I presume that was supposed to result from the combining of the signals off the 342 and 54 degree panels. Louisville is at about 13 degrees, and I guess the signals are interfering instead of adding, at least for KCNC and KTVD.

Again. I am just guessing. I sure wish the stations would tell us what is going on.

At least KMGH has given guidance that would lead me to not do anything for a while, if I was having trouble with it. I believe the notice someone in the forum found and posted a link to said something about the end of the week, or 12-19-08.

Does anyone understand what's up with KDEN? Nothing new - it's just still busted the same way it's been for months. The signal is strong, but neither of my receivers quite handle it, with different symptoms:

- My Dish receiver scans RF 29, says the display channel should be 25, and puts 25-1 in the channel list; when I try to tune it, I never see anything but a black screen.

- My Directivo HD unit dings at RF channel 29, says the display channel is 25-1 from the "Test Off-Air Signal Strength" menu, puts 29-3 in the channel guide, and 29-3 can't be tuned; but if I enter "29-1" I can actually watch the channel.

Does this confuse other folks' boxes as well?


There are a few minor problems with KDEN's psip that might cause some peoples tuners to have problems. Every broadcaster has an assigned "Transport Stream ID" (TSID). There are three locations in the transport stream where this number is supposed to be used: 1) In the PAT table, 2) In the TVCT table header, and 3) in each individual subchannel description within the TVCT. Three stations in the area, KDEN, KRMT and KQCK, are using 1 for their TSID, rather than their assigned TSID. However, KDEN is only using 1 as their TSID within the PAT table; they are using their assigned TSID in both locations within the TVCT table. So they are self inconsistant in that regard (for about 4 hours last week they fixed their PAT table, but it reverted back to 1 after that). The TSID is used to identify a unique station, and tuners can do strange things when it is not set correctly. However, most tuners recognize 1 and 0 as a generic/default value and seem to handle that OK. KDEN's self inconsistant behaviour may be responsible for your issue. Their temporary fix may have also added to the problem, because whenever a station switches their TSID your tuner will see that as a "different" station on the same frequency and possibly assign an alternate channel number for the station. The other issue with KDEN is that they have two audio tracks with identical descriptions with respect to format and language. This is somewhat unusual, but it is not a standard violation as far as I can tell. This shouldn't cause of problem with tuning the station, but it could lead to no audio (see below).

My receivers have problems tuning 3 channels - KTFD, KDEN, and KRMT. My two E* receivers handle each of these stations differently. My ViP 211 tunes KTFD, has video but no audio for KDEN, and tunes KRMT. My ViP222 shows a black screen for KTFD and KDEN, and only has audio for KRMT. My Insignia TV's built in tuner shows a black screen for KTFD, and video only for KDEN, but tunes KRMT. I haven't checked my Accurian receivers or my LCD with rabbit ears in the kitchen.

It's apparent to me that these three channels have some incorrect values in their PSIP data stream. It's equally apparent that they have very few viewers since, if I can't view them, and apparently rthurlow can't either, no one has complained to the stations to fix their PSIP. KRMT still doesn't remap to 41-1 either. I have to wonder if these stations will get on the ball once 2-17-09 comes around and they lose their analog viewers.


I'm fairly sure I know why you don't get audio on KDEN. As I mentioned above, KDEN sends two audio tracks with their video. The format and language are identical for both audio tracks. There are a variety of reasons that multiple audio tracks may be provided, but in all the cases I can think of, the different tracks would have something different about them in the various format or language fields. There is nothing in the standard saying they can't do this (identical format and language for the two tracks), but there is also nothing in the standard which would determine which track is the default track in this case. The problem is that one of those tracks are silent most of the time, whereas the other track is the normal track (both are advertised as english, although this is a spanish station). So, on the tuners where you hear no audio most likely the tuner just chose the wrong audio track (not a fault of the tuner, since "right" is not defined in this case as far as I can tell). All tuners should have some way of changing the audio track, although this can be more difficult on some tuners than others. Try changing the audio track on the devices where you get no audio and see if that does not solve the problem. It would be nice to know what KDEN's intention is in providing two audio tracks. KDVR for example has two audio tracks, one for spanish and one for english. Their spanish track is silent most of the time, but there are a few bilingual programs that do provide audio on the spanish track. In this case, since each track is advertised as containing a different language, tuners don't have a problem deciding which track to use, and you can control which one will be the default in most cases.

I can't really find any issues with KTFD. The only thing I can think of is that they have only 1 audio track that is advertised as spanish. This is perfectly acceptable, but perhaps some tuners are looking for an english track by default and have a problem when they can't find one. Perhaps changing the default language (if that is possible, some tuners just let you specify an "alternate" track) on the tuner to spanish might fix the problem for tuners that have an issue with KTFD. The only other difference I see with KTFD is that the frame size is 720x480, rather than the normal 480i default of 704x480. But there is nothing wrong with that either, i.e. 720x480 is an acceptable frame size for 480i.

I also can't see a problem with KRMT's psip data, other than the generic TSID value of 1 and the fact that they have the wrong display channel set in their TVCT. The latter problem can't cause a real problem unless it collided with another channel, because a tuner has no idea what the right display channel should be.

Perhaps rather than PSIP issues these channels have errors in their MPEG encoding. I know it takes longer to tune KDEN on my DTVpal than on other tuner/converter boxes. When I tune it with my DTT900 it displays immediately, but the picture has random garbage for a second or two as the picture is built up. My guess is that KDEN is inserting significantly less MPEG I-frames in their encoding than other stations. For those who are not aware, an I-frame contains the data for a full frame, whereas other frames contain only changes from the I-frame. The DTVpal probably waits for an I-frame before it shows anything, whereas the DTT900 probably shows the incomplete picture (with garbage in the macro blocks that it hasn't seen data for) until an I-frame comes along. However, this particular problem (if my guess as to the cause is correct) may not be "friendly", but I don't think it is a standard violation. There may be other encoding problems that are violations of either the MPEG-2 standard or some of the constraints that the ATSC standard places upon the MPEG-2 standard.

and I guess the signals are interfering instead of adding, at least for KCNC and KTVD

To be clear, KCNC-DT is the only station I have difficulties with; KTVD has always blasted in at my house since they moved; in fact they and KMGH-DT have always been tied for my strongest signal from the LCG tower.

(My strongest signal from Lookout Mountain has been KWGN-DT.)

Still no KMGH-DT here in SW Lafayette! :confused:

Me either here west of Ft Lupton. I was able to get analog 7 but last night there was nothing there either. Hope this is fixed on Friday as previously mentioned.

Me either here west of Ft Lupton. I was able to get analog 7 but last night there was nothing there either. Hope this is fixed on Friday as previously mentioned.

The problem with the digital services had no effect on the analog services, which are broadcast from different antennas on different towers.

The problem with the digital services had no effect on the analog services, which are broadcast from different antennas on different towers.

Yes that is what I thought --so I do not have a explanation why analog 7 was off the air too--do you? Actually it looked like there was a signal as there was a still image frozen on the screen with no audio when I checked several times and then later no signal at all.

I just checked now and analog 7 is back on so I apparently it was just an anomaly last night.

I ended up ordering a Clearstream2... anybody have any experience with this model?

That'll work fine -- for now. The C2 is a reasonably good, UHF-only antenna. It's not designed to receive VHF channels, however, and that's where KMGH-7, KUSA-9 and KBDI-12 are headed Feb. 18 at the digital transition. (The stations' temporary DTV broadcasts are on UHF channels 17, 16 and 38 now, so initial results with the C2 are likely to be quite good.) The C2 might work at your location for these three channels after the switch if it's mounted outside. If signal dropouts start happening after the transition, though, it'll be pretty easy to add on an inexpensive VHF-high antenna if need be.

See this field test (http://www.hdtvexpert.com/pages_c/Five_Antennas.html) of the C2 and four competing antennas, particularly the conclusion at the end of the article. It doesn't square well with Antennas Direct's advertising claims that Clearstreams are "designed and optimized for 2009 frequencies associated with the DTV transition," does it?

KCNC-DT and KRMA-DT are about the same strength for me tonight - around 62/100 - much like what I used to see post-11/18 when they were using their main antenna.

KMGH-DT's level is lower too, but about the same as KUSA-DT's around 73/100.

Compare to Saturday when KCNC-DT, KMGH-DT and KTVD-DT were all at 98/100.

As a control, KWGN-DT remains at 100/100, KDVR-DT at 96/100.

You mentioned KRMA-DT in the first line. Was that just a typo? That would be very understanable since we are so used to talking about the terrible KRMA-DT signal here in Louisville.

I presume you meant to say:
KCNC-DT and KTVD-DT are about the same strength for me tonight - around 62/100

That would make our exexperiences very similar, as I would expect.

To be clear, KCNC-DT is the only station I have difficulties with; KTVD has always blasted in at my house since they moved; in fact they and KMGH-DT have always been tied for my strongest signal from the LCG tower.

(My strongest signal from Lookout Mountain has been KWGN-DT.)

I got confused by that first post.
You said:Compare to Saturday when KCNC-DT, KMGH-DT and KTVD-DT were all at 98/100. but you did not provide a value for KTVD on Sunday to compare the Saturday value to.
That is why I created the second post. I had quessed that you had meant to say KTDV instead of KRMA on the first line of your post. I didn't think you got a reading for KRMA at all. Was my guess all wrong?

The guess was based on the fact that 20-1 KTVD has been at reduced strength for me since last Sunday 12/7/08). KTVD used to be one of my strongest signals, and very similar in strength to 2-1(KWGN-DT) and 31-1(KDVR-DT).

UPDATE:
I just did a check to be sure nothing has changed very recently. 4-1(KCNC-DT) and 20-1(KTVD-DT) were both in the 70s on my TR40. They were both in the 90s when they were using the AUX antenna prior to the Sunday 12-7-08 failure.

If you still get 20-1(KTVD-DT) at 98 or so, I guess there is quite a difference for us, which comes as a surprise. It also may wipe out a lot of my theory as to what is going on.

KMGH is apparently operating on a temporary antenna now and anticipates the primary to be back up by Friday the 19th.

Full story here:
http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/18249365/detail.html#-

Another thanks for posting this!

That'll work fine -- for now. The C2 is a reasonably good, UHF-only antenna. It's not designed to receive VHF channels, however, and that's where KMGH-7, KUSA-9 and KBDI-12 are headed Feb. 18 at the digital transition. (The stations' temporary DTV broadcasts are on UHF channels 17, 16 and 38 now, so initial results with the C2 are likely to be quite good.) The C2 might work at your location for these three channels after the switch if it's mounted outside. If signal dropouts start happening after the transition, though, it'll be pretty easy to add on an inexpensive VHF-high antenna if need be.

See this field test (http://www.hdtvexpert.com/pages_c/Five_Antennas.html) of the C2 and four competing antennas, particularly the conclusion at the end of the article. It doesn't square well with Antennas Direct's advertising claims that Clearstreams are "designed and optimized for 2009 frequencies associated with the DTV transition," does it?


I wouldn't put very much stock in that test, it was done only 10' off the ground. They didn't take in account of the groung radiation. A real test would have been to mount it on the roof where it belongs. I guess that would have been to much work to get up and change them out each time. That clearstream2 is suposed to pick up the high VHF channels according to solidsignal.com. I hope the woody777 reports on what his signals are.

jsmar, thanks for the info on tuner problems. I managed to change the audio stream on my Insignia TV with a built in tuner. For KDEN, it showed English 1 and English 2. When I switched it to English 2, I received audio. Only problem is that every time I change channels, it defaults back to English 1. I guess I really don't care since I don't watch Spanish language TV. I couldn't figure out how to change the audio stream on my E* receivers.

On another note, KQCK's signal strength is back up to the high 70's and they've stayed on the air for several days now! Does anyone know how to get program listings for this station? The newspapers don't include the analog counterpart, channel 39, because, I presume, it's an LP. Windows Media Center doesn't even recognize the station - I had to edit WMC xml files to get it to tune on my computer. The station doesn't have any program guide info - big surprise. And E*'s OTA program guide doesn't have any listings for it although it does have listings for KGWN from Cheyenne.

I also wonder when the newspapers are going to start listing the digital channels in their TV listings. KRMA, KMGH, KBDI, and KPXC all have multiple sub-channels and KQCK is a full power station that apparently all program guide services ignore.

jsmar, thanks for the info on tuner problems. I managed to change the audio stream on my Insignia TV with a built in tuner. For KDEN, it showed English 1 and English 2. When I switched it to English 2, I received audio. Only problem is that every time I change channels, it defaults back to English 1. I guess I really don't care since I don't watch Spanish language TV. I couldn't figure out how to change the audio stream on my E* receivers.

Some devices make switching the audio track quite easy, while others seem to make it extremely difficult and unfriendly. My Zenith DTT900 converter's remote has a "SAP" button on it, which easily cycles through all of the available audio tracks. My DTVpal is quite another story. You have to go into the setup menu, find the audio setup menu and then choose "alternate" for the audio track. I can't remember if this applied only to the current channel or to all channels. If it applies to all channels then it is pretty much worthless. Note that this procedure may be somewhat in common with your E* receivers, since the DTVpal is made by E* also. Luckily the DTVpal seems to have chosen the correct audio track by default. None of this makes any real difference for me, because like you, I have no desire to watch the spanish language stations.

Though I will note that many times if I am scanning through channels I notice that KTFD is running a movie I wouldn't mind watching if they had a secondary english audio track. I wonder if the spanish language stations get a better deal on movies as long as they are not broadcast in english, because KTFD certainly has a pretty good selection of movies in my opinion. If they were to add an english audio track they would probably significantly increase their audience.

On another note, KQCK's signal strength is back up to the high 70's and they've stayed on the air for several days now! Does anyone know how to get program listings for this station? The newspapers don't include the analog counterpart, channel 39, because, I presume, it's an LP. Windows Media Center doesn't even recognize the station - I had to edit WMC xml files to get it to tune on my computer. The station doesn't have any program guide info - big surprise. And E*'s OTA program guide doesn't have any listings for it although it does have listings for KGWN from Cheyenne.

I also wonder when the newspapers are going to start listing the digital channels in their TV listings. KRMA, KMGH, KBDI, and KPXC all have multiple sub-channels and KQCK is a full power station that apparently all program guide services ignore.
I haven't found any source for KQCK programming information. One of these days the FCC is going to get around to enforcing their PSIP standards on KQCK and they will have to provide EPG data (if they don't go bankrupt first). I even tried finding guide data for other RTN channels, hoping that it would be the same for KQCK, although possibly off by an hour or two, depending on the timezone. That didn't work either, but I can't remember why (it was either I could not find programming info for any RTN channel, or the programming is not the same across all RTN channels).

If you still get 20-1(KTVD-DT) at 98 or so, I guess there is quite a difference for us, which comes as a surprise. It also may wipe out a lot of my theory as to what is going on.

OK, to clarify, prior to the aux antenna frying Sunday, KTVD was one of my strongest signals.

But it's still one of the strongest signals I receive off the LCG tower, second only to KMGH-DT (sorry, WaldorfSalad.)

My current readings on the S3 TiVo as of 5:32 AM Dec. 16, former aux antenna residents in bold:

KWGN-DT (2-1, UHF 34): 99/100
KCNC-DT (4-1, UHF 35): 64/100
KRMA-DT (6-1, UHF 18): 58/100
KMGH-DT (7-1, UHF 17): 84/100
KUSA-DT (9-1, UHF 16): 78/100
KTFD-DT (14-1, UHF 15): 99/100
KTVD-DT (20-1, UHF 19): 81/100
KFCT-DT (22-1, UHF 21): 67/100
KDEN-DT (25-1, UHF 29): 64/100
KDVR-DT (31-1, UHF 32): 93/100
KRMT-DT (40-1, UHF 40): 77/100
KWHD-DT (53-1, UHF 46): 53/100
KPXC-DT (59-1, UHF 43): 72/100

Those are the only stations on which I am able to lock a signal; as always, KBDI-DT is dead to me and I have I never received KQCK-DT or any of the digital stations out of Cheyenne (pity as I receive KGWN's analog signal pretty well.)

Last Saturday on the backup antenna, KCNC-DT was 98/100.

Prior to the aux antenna frying Sunday, KTVD-DT was always a solid 99/100.

Also, during testing last weekend, KMGH-DT on VHF 7 was 98/100 and KUSA-DT on VHF 9 was the only solid 100/100 signal I've ever seen; KWGN-DT fluctuates between 99/100 and 100/100 for me, so I'm not entirely sure whether the S3 TiVo can assign a 100/100 signal rating to a UHF source.

Finally, the 64/100 for KCNC-DT is their "maximum" signal for me off their main antenna; as before, from around 8:00 AM to around 10:15 AM, their signal drops into the unable-to-lock territory, and is only in the 40s or so when it comes back at 10:15-ish. It seems to increase later in the day stabilizing in the 60s, so I honestly think KCNC's engineers are right, that there must be something else between here and Lookout interfering with UHF 35 between around 8:00 AM and 10:30 AM or so, and when their antenna is working right their signal is strong enough to overpower the interference.

In Northeast Longmont, I took some readings on my HD TiVo.
7:00 AM 12/16/2008

I do not understand 64/100. My first guess was dynamic/peak

KWGN-DT (2-1, UHF 34): 100/100
KCNC-DT (4-1, UHF 35): 23/26{red} <= 100 (6/3/2008)
KRMA-DT (6-1, UHF 18): 0/0
KMGH-DT (7-1, UHF 17): 26/33{red} <= 97 (6/3/2008)
KUSA-DT (9-1, UHF 16): 73/73
KBDI-DT (12-1, UHF 38): 79/70
KTFD-DT (14-1, UHF 15): 87/87
KTVD-DT (20-1, UHF 19): 75/75
KFCT-DT (22-1, UHF 21): 0/0
KDEN-DT (25-1, UHF 29): 58/58
KDVR-DT (31-1, UHF 32): 93/93
KRMT-DT (40-1, UHF 19): 70/70 (not UHF 40)
KCEC-DT (50-1, UHF 51): 35/35{red}
KWHD-DT (53-1, UHF 46): ?
KPXC-DT (59-1, UHF 43): 87/87

?(11-1, VHF 11): 33/33{red}
?(29-3, UHF 29): 58/65
?(33-1, VHF 11): 0/33{red}

In Northeast Longmont, I took some readings on my HD TiVo.
7:00 AM 12/16/2008

I do not understand 64/100. My first guess was dynamic/peak

Sorry - the S3 TiVo (not sure if the HD TiVo does as well) lists signal strength as a number on the scale of 0 - 100, so I quoted the second number so people would know the scale involved.

I could have just said "percent" to make things easier. :D

Also:

KRMT-DT (40-1, UHF 19): 70/70 (not UHF 40)

Notice there's no video there?

That's because there's an error in TiVo's channel maps that makes it think KRMT-DT is on UHF 19; if you notice the rest of your list it "sees" a channel there because UHF 19 is actually KTVD-DT, or 20-1.

KRMT-DT is actually broadcasting on UHF 40, and you have to do a scan with your TiVo to find it.

I wouldn't put very much stock in that test, it was done only 10' off the ground. They didn't take in account of the groung radiation. A real test would have been to mount it on the roof where it belongs. I guess that would have been to much work to get up and change them out each time. That clearstream2 is suposed to pick up the high VHF channels according to solidsignal.com. I hope the woody777 reports on what his signals are.

The test was a compare/contrast test and was quite valuable for that purpose. It wasn't intended to be a test of maximum performance at optimum conditions. The author's DTV test reports over the years have been very informative and valuable since they provide real world comparisons rather than theoretical estimates or manufacturer's hype. Just my 2 cents.

On another note, KQCK's signal strength is back up to the high 70's and they've stayed on the air for several days now! Does anyone know how to get program listings for this station?

Try Zap2It KQCK channel 33 listings (http://tvlistings.zap2it.com/tvlistings/ZCSGrid.do?stnNum=43724&channel=33.1&channelCnt=33)


Though I will note that many times if I am scanning through channels I notice that KTFD is running a movie I wouldn't mind watching if they had a secondary english audio track. I wonder if the spanish language stations get a better deal on movies as long as they are not broadcast in english, because KTFD certainly has a pretty good selection of movies in my opinion. If they were to add an english audio track they would probably significantly increase their audience.


I believe they do get a better deal and it costs "extra" for the english audio track.

On another note, KQCK's signal strength is back up to the high 70's and they've stayed on the air for several days now! Does anyone know how to get program listings for this station? http://www.titantv.com/quickguide/quickguide.aspx has KQCK listings.

I hooked up my S3 to an over the air antenna in Denver and did a channel search which found several channels that were not already mapped from my analog cable. These channels included the local HD broadcasts, mapped in at 80-1, 80-6, etc. They came in more clearly on my non HD crt tv than the regular SD cable channel. As a test I hooked up my OTA TR-40CRA converter box to the same antenna and bypassed the S3 and went directly to the tv. It would only map stations up to 69-x. I cannot receive the OTA local HD channels. Do all converters only map up to the 69's? Will the station numbers change during the Feb 2009 conversion? Do different devices map the channels differently?

http://www.titantv.com/quickguide/quickguide.aspx has KQCK listings.

Thanks. I had previously checked TitanTV, but they didn't have any info for KQCK when I checked (it was in their channel list, but they didn't have programming information). I didn't check Zap2It. Note that a lot of these services all get their data from the same 1 or 2 services (e.g. Tribune Media Services).

I hooked up my S3 to an over the air antenna in Denver and did a channel search which found several channels that were not already mapped from my analog cable. These channels included the local HD broadcasts, mapped in at 80-1, 80-6, etc. They came in more clearly on my non HD crt tv than the regular SD cable channel. As a test I hooked up my OTA TR-40CRA converter box to the same antenna and bypassed the S3 and went directly to the tv. It would only map stations up to 69-x. I cannot receive the OTA local HD channels. Do all converters only map up to the 69's? Will the station numbers change during the Feb 2009 conversion? Do different devices map the channels differently?

69 is the highest UHF channel. After the transition there won't be any full power UHF stations above channel 51 (low power stations may still exist in the 52-69 range for a while yet, although I believe when they convert to digital they won't be able to remain in the 52-69 range). Note that the display channel (or virtual channel) normally corresponds to an RF channel, and therefore will be mostly limited to the range 2-51 (which RF channel depends on whether there was an original analog service -- special rules apply for new digital only stations). Also, there are some other special situations where we may see display channels in the 70-99 range.

All boxes should map the stations the same way, since that mapping is something that the station broadcasts within its digital transport stream. However, some stations are not fully compliant with the FCC standards and are not broadcasting that information. In that case there may be some differences in how a converter handles the mapping, but most converters seem to follow the same convention.

So, the channel mappings should not change at the transition for most stations, even if they are switching the underlying RF channel they are broadcasting on. Channel mappings should change in situations where the station is not currently broadcasting a mapping (or are broadcasting the wrong mapping). For example, according to the FCC standards, KQCK should be channel 33.1 not 11.1. KRMT should be 41.1 not 40.1). When and if that change will happen is unknown.

EDIT: Note that you may have channel mapping issues at the transition if you don't do a full channel rescan. For example KMGH (7.1), KUSA (9.1, 9.2) and KBDI (12.1,12.2,12.3) are changing the underlying RF frequency they are broadcasting on. Your converter may have the option of scanning for additional stations. In this case it will find the station on its new frequency, but the box will see that it has a mapping that is identical to the one that was on the old frequency. How the converter handles that may be different on a case by case basis. To be safe I would recommend that people do a full rescan on February 18th, rather than trying to just add new channels. In some cases you may not be able to get KMGH, KUSA or KBDI if you don't do a full rescan.

Posted by jsmar:
Thanks. I had previously checked TitanTV, but they didn't have any info for KQCK when I checked (it was in their channel list, but they didn't have programming information). I didn't check Zap2It. Note that a lot of these services all get their data from the same 1 or 2 services (e.g. Tribune Media Services).
Ditto. That's why I asked the question.

I wouldn't put very much stock in that test, it was done only 10' off the ground. They didn't take in account of the groung radiation. A real test would have been to mount it on the roof where it belongs. I guess that would have been to much work to get up and change them out each time. That clearstream2 is suposed to pick up the high VHF channels according to solidsignal.com. I hope the woody777 reports on what his signals are.

Everything I read (and according to the people at Antennas Direct) said that the Clearstream2 can pick up high VHF channels. Either way, I will report back!

I haven't found any source for KQCK programming information. One of these days the FCC is going to get around to enforcing their PSIP standards on KQCK and they will have to provide EPG data (if they don't go bankrupt first). I even tried finding guide data for other RTN channels, hoping that it would be the same for KQCK, although possibly off by an hour or two, depending on the timezone. That didn't work either, but I can't remember why (it was either I could not find programming info for any RTN channel, or the programming is not the same across all RTN channels).

You can find the programming online via Titan TV or Zap2It websites. You have to do a search by zipcode.

While talking about the RTN channels, I have Galaxy 18 in my satellite lineup, where a good majority of the RTN channels are. I pull them from the Ku band and they are all free-to-air. ALL of the RTN channels are programmed in Little Rock at the Equity Media hq.

I actually took the time to organize a web-based program guide from Zap2It. I had to chase down each channel using the stations zipcode, then I would add it to my favorites. After I was completely finished, I sent a link icon to my desktop, so that when I click on the link, it opens the IE browser with all of my saved channels.

***After reading comments above about not being able to find anything for KQCK-DT, I rechecked my Zap2It program guide and they are there. They are listed as KQCK-DT 33.1 and KQCK-DT 33.2 (LA TV).

I'm in Erie, CO, about a mile north of Highway 7 and about a mile east of 287 (just north of Lafayette/Broomfield, just east of Boulder County, south of Longmont). I just set up an indoor antenna and small amplifier tonight. I have no problem picking up every digital channel with an amplifier and an indoor antenna -- except ABC (KMGH-DT, 7.1). is something currently wrong with that channel, or any reason why I can't receive it (i.e. currently very low broadcast strength)? If I understand correctly, this channel is broadcasting from the same location as three other channels that I have no problem receiving (20.1, 9.1, and 4.1). This doesn't make sense to me.

Thanks!

I'm in Erie, CO, about a mile north of Highway 7 and about a mile east of 287 (just north of Lafayette/Broomfield, just east of Boulder County, south of Longmont). I just set up an indoor antenna and small amplifier tonight. I have no problem picking up every digital channel with an amplifier and an indoor antenna -- except ABC (KMGH-DT, 7.1). is something currently wrong with that channel, or any reason why I can't receive it (i.e. currently very low broadcast strength)? If I understand correctly, this channel is broadcasting from the same location as three other channels that I have no problem receiving (20.1, 9.1, and 4.1). This doesn't make sense to me.

Thanks!

KMGH is apparently operating on a temporary antenna now and anticipates the primary to be back up by Friday the 19th.

Full story here:
http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/18249365/detail.html#-

SW Lafayette is apparently in a KMGH black hole also.


I have heard from engineering at 2 stations that there appears to be a problem with the main antenna on LOM. It appears that the main antenna is currently being shared by all the LCG stations.

The current configuration seems to produce a weak signal for a line through Louisville for 4-1 KCNC and 20-1 KTVD, as well as a weak signal for a line through Lafayette for 7-1 KMGH.
Those areas were getting good signals from all 3 stations when they were sharing the AUX antenna untill it failed on Sunday 12-7-08.

The current configuration seems to produce a weak signal for a line through Louisville for 4-1 KCNC and 20-1 KTVD, as well as a weak signal for a line through Lafayette for 7-1 KMGH.

I don't get that - as I stated above, KTVD-DT remains the second strongest signal I get from the LCG tower, second only to KMGH-DT (!).

I should call KCNC back and see if they can send out their signal truck to find out what the interfering signal may be that prevents me from getting a lock on KCNC-DT most mornings.

kenavs, do you lose KCNC-DT as well between around 8:00 AM and 10:15 AM or so most mornings?

I have heard from engineering at 2 stations that there appears to be a problem with the main antenna on LOM. It appears that the main antenna is currently being shared by all the LCG stations.

Thanks, that explains the problem with 7.1.

Oh, I also can't get PBC (KRMA-DT, 6.1). Is this normal for my area? It looks like it's coming from a very similar direction as the LCG channels. I think I remember reading something about low transmission power for that station? Is this going to improve after Feb. 19?

Thanks, that explains the problem with 7.1.

Oh, I also can't get PBC (KRMA-DT, 6.1). Is this normal for my area? It looks like it's coming from a very similar direction as the LCG channels. I think I remember reading something about low transmission power for that station? Is this going to improve after Feb. 19?

KRMA plans to make improvements, but those improvements will come sometime after 2/19, perhaps significantly later. You might be able to get them if you installed an outdoor antenna.

Most TV stations are still working on digital conversion

Longmont Times-Call - Johnnie St. Vrain - 12/17/2008
Dear Johnnie: I watch television "over the air" using an antenna. I can get some channels in high definition, but I cannot receive channels 6, 7 and 12. Will I be able to receive all of these by the "digital conversion" date of Feb. 17, 2009? -- WW

Dear WW: Here’s the information I gathered from each of these channels:

KRMA Channel 6 will be experiencing more changes than the other two channels, but the nature and timing of those changes is still uncertain. Their current broadcast tower on Mount Morrison is a low-powered tower which limits their range of broadcast. Their plan is to take over an existing tower which will broadcast with more power, but they cannot do so until after Feb. 17. After that, it will take 60 to 90 days to make their adjustments to the tower, during which time it may be difficult to receive high-definition broadcast, especially around the Windsor area and north of there. The station has applied to the Federal Communication Commission for permission to redirect their "translator" which will help with transmission, but this would require the FCC to make an exception to their rules. The station hopes to have definitive news about their plans in the next two weeks and will make an announcement at that time. When Channel 6 is able to broadcast at full power, the range will extend to north of Fort Collins.

You should be able to receive ABC Channel 7 in high definition on Feb. 17 and perhaps earlier.

KBDI Channel 12’s conversion is not complete -- they will be at full power by February 17.

KRMA Channel 6 down for 2-3 months! No 'News Hour with Jim Lehrer' and 'Washington Week'!

I hope the Longmont Times-Call - Johnnie St. Vrain article is pessimistic!

Nt

It saddens me to think that the temporary work-around be used today on the LCG tower on LOM is providing me the strongest signals I've had for those stations since they moved their DTV operations to LOM. I'm still seeing KMGH at 98 to 100, KTVD in the mid-90s, KUSA 88 to 92, and KCNC in the mid-80s. At one point in late November, I had KCNC in the low 70s with occasional drop outs. I hope that the final fix doesn't put all my signals back where they were.

BTW, KWGN continues to be my on-going problem. Now I get a strong low 80s signal in the early morning that deteriorates throughout the day down to the low 70s and high 60s. It wasn't like that back a few months ago, so I just don't understand what is going on except my suspicion that KCNC channel 35 is providing adjacent channel interference to KWGN's channel 34 with KCNC's antenna being in-line and closer to my location.

KQCK seems to be back off the air today. I'm not getting even a blip on my signal meter.

KQCK seems to be back off the air today. I'm not getting even a blip on my signal meter.

Heh.

...and this surprises you?

;);););););););););););););)

I don't get that - as I stated above, KTVD-DT remains the second strongest signal I get from the LCG tower, second only to KMGH-DT (!).

I should call KCNC back and see if they can send out their signal truck to find out what the interfering signal may be that prevents me from getting a lock on KCNC-DT most mornings.

kenavs, do you lose KCNC-DT as well between around 8:00 AM and 10:15 AM or so most mornings?

According to your post yesterday at 7:25AM, you now get a reading in the mid 70s on 20-1 KTVD and I believe you said it used to be as strong as KWGN, which you list at 100, when they were on the AUX antenna. While that may be strong enough that your tuner can recover a clean image, it still is down from what it was on the AUX antenna. As I understand it, 4-1 KCNC and 20-1 KTVD are in, what was intrended to be, their final configurations, or something quite close. They both should be booming into Louisville. Being down a little from max power might effect Fort Collins, but it should not have any effect on us in Louisville.

I have not noticed any strict time when I get or lose KCNC or KTVD on my older tuners. It generally seems to better during the day and deteriorates later. The DISH TR40-CRA CECB seems to be able to recover both all of the time. My Vizio TVs and Philps recorders, that are less than 2 years old get them most of the time. My Philips Plasma TV that is over 3 years old has the most trouble. Since 12/7/08, it often has break-up problems with one or both of the stations at various times during the day. I really think it is just a very weak signal, and atmospherics are coming in to play. If I got it right, readings were taken by KCNC at the Davidson Mesa Trailhead parking lot across from Harper Lake, before the AUX antenna failed, and there was 20db difference in received power between the AUX antenna and the main antenna with the same transmitter driving the antennas. That is a huge difference. A 20 db lower signal is only 1% of the higher one. I got the impression they switched between the 2, and detected those shifts. That would not be external interference. That would be a problem in the antenna system. According to one source, KCNC and KTFD both definitely switched from the AUX antenna to the main antenna on 12-7. If they are using similar power distribution to the antenna panels, it would seem logical that they could have a similar coverage pattern problem.

KTVD might be less of a problem than KCNC for some equipment because it is at a lower frequency, and might be effected a little differently by atmospheric conditions for the same reasons.

That frequency difference could effect atmospherics and the abilty to process what is received because of different characteristics in the antenna, wiring, and tuners at the recieving end. The current KCNC-DT transmission channel is quite different from the rest of the current LCG assignments.
4-1 KCNC UHF 35
7-1 KMGH UHF 17
9-1 KUSA UHF 16
20-1 KTVD UHF 19

KUSA ran two soft tests during their afternoon newscasts today. I didn't see what the analog message was since I was watching digital.

I switched over to analog after the 6 pm broadcast and saw snow with an overlay saying "If you're seeing this message, this TV is NOT ready for the digital transition" or something like that.

Well, I said I would report back... so here are my findings after installing the Clearstream2 (I live in the Frederick/Firestone area):

I didn't take any signal strength readings with my old RCA antenna I got at Radio Shack, but the Clearstream2 is a marked improvement because I was able to pick up quite a few channels I couldn't before, including 7.1 and 9.1.

To do a quick unscientific comparison, I setup the Clearstream2 indoors in the same spot as my old antenna. It was able to pick up quite a few additional channels right off the bat. I then moved the Clearstream2 outside (on the side of the house, replacing my old satellite dish, pointing toward where I think Lookout Mountain probably is).

Here's my signal stength (based on digital stations my tuner automatically detected):

2.1, 2.2 100%
4.1 92%
6.1, 6.2 80%
7.1,7.27 56%
9.1,9.2 83%
12.1, 12.2, 12.3 92%
14.1 100%
20.1 83%
22.1 24% NO SIGNAL
25.1 92%
31.1 92%
40.1 73%
53.1 0% NO SIGNAL
59.1, 59.2, 59.3, 59.4 100%

7.1 never lost reception, broke up or had any other issues despite the low signal strength.
53.1 worked initially, but then stopped - is it working for anyone else right now?
59.1 has a weird strip of distortion along the bottom - does anyone else see the same thing?

Not sure what channels I'm missing (if any), but I really only want the basics - 2, 4, 6, 7, 9, 12, 20 and 31.

We'll see what happens after February, but so far I'm very happy with the Clearstream2.

On KUSA's 10:00 PM news tonight, they ran a story about an OTA family, showing them hooking up their converter box, etc. At the end of the story, Mark Koebrick said, paraphrasing, that if you hook up your converter box now, you may not receive all of the digital stations because some are at low power, which is mandated by the FCC until 2-17-09. Geez.

KQCK is still DOA. At the suggestion of someone on this thread, I can't remember whom, I filed a complaint with the FCC on September 11, regarding KQCK being dark for over 30 days without giving required notice to the FCC, their failure to provide correct PSIP info - channel remapping and program guide info, and the fact (as best as I could determine) that they have no presence in their city of license - street address, resident engineer contact, or phone number. Today, I received a form letter from the FCC acknowledging my complaint and stating it was under review. The FCC must be busy - I filed the complaint over 3 months ago.

Finally, I've noticed that some posters from the northern metro area have difficulty receiving KFCT 22-1 (woody777, cia_viewer, etc.). I receive KFCT in the high 70's on my E* receivers and the signal is very steady, no pixelation, dropouts, etc. According to TVFool, I'm 78 miles from the tower and have 1 edge reception. I'm wondering if KFCT doesn't have some antenna problems like KCNC does/did regarding nulls in certain directions, etc. or maybe my antenna is just in a sweet spot. Just a thought, and I guess it really doesn't matter to those up north since it appears KDVR's signal is strong in that direction. Which brings up the question, what purpose does KFCT serve if KDVR is receivable by everyone in KFCT's converage contour?