woody777, I'd be interested to know if you can receive KQCK, 11-1, with your Clearstream. Of course, you can't report back on that until they get back on the air! I also noticed you didn't report receiving KGWN out of Cheyenne. Maybe that was because you pointed towards LOM.

On KUSA's 10:00 PM news tonight, they ran a story about an OTA family, showing them hooking up their converter box, etc. At the end of the story, Mark Koebrick said, paraphrasing, that if you hook up your converter box now, you may not receive all of the digital stations because some are at low power, which is mandated by the FCC until 2-17-09. Geez.

Glad I wasn't the only one screaming at the screen that it's actually because Gannett is too cheap to send out more power.

Especially given their power is down from what they were sending from RP,

But that's OK, it's not as bad as the commercial where Mark is shown hooking up a converter box and replacing a families "ancient" antenna with a new "digital" one.

Unfortunately the old antenna they took away was a perfectly good VHF/UHF model and the new one a UHF Yagi.

I guess they're just screwed after February thanks to KUSA. Yay!

According to your post yesterday at 7:25AM, you now get a reading in the mid 70s on 20-1 KTVD and I believe you said it used to be as strong as KWGN, which you list at 100, when they were on the AUX antenna. While that may be strong enough that your tuner can recover a clean image, it still is down from what it was on the AUX antenna.

Yes, it is down from what it was, but as I mentioned it's also still my second strongest signal from the LCG tower. I have also never even seen so much as a blockie from KTVD, where I completely lose KCNC most every morning like clockwork.

For whatever reason, as I type their signal is currently coming in at the exact same level as KRMA-DT.

A 20 db lower signal is only 1% of the higher one. I got the impression they switched between the 2, and detected those shifts. That would not be external interference. That would be a problem in the antenna system. According to one source, KCNC and KTFD both definitely switched from the AUX antenna to the main antenna on 12-7. If they are using similar power distribution to the antenna panels, it would seem logical that they could have a similar coverage pattern problem.

We're talking past each other here.

Yes, KCNC-DT is down in signal when coming off their main antenna, badly so, but there's also a problem that results in their signal being completely unlockable from around 8:00 AM to 10:10 AM or so each morning. The rest of the day they come in reasonably well, though obviously not with as high a signal as they have from the aux antenna.

So to recap, most of the day for me their signal varies between 58 and 68 on the 100 point TiVo S3 scale.

Most mornings between 8:00 AM and 10:30 AM or so their signal is in the low tens and I can't get a lock. When their signal comes back, i get blockies for about five minutes, then they're pretty much rock solid the other 21.5 hours a day.

That's got to be something interfering during that time period - the last time I talked to KCNC they theorized something doing a daily data transmission to an antenna on one of the mountains - or there's something that makes the signal NULL even worse during those times.

That's why I asked if you lost their signal each morning too.

Is there any way you can check their signal around 9:00 AM and see if it's down from what you see the balance of the day?

I just checked KCNC (4.1) and the signal strength seems to be much higher than it has been in the last few weeks.

Looks like the black hole here in Lafayette with no signal from KMGH will be around for a while longer. Here's the message I got from the station engineer:

Thanks for your comments.

Our brand new digital antenna failed Sunday afternoon on December 7th on Lookout Mountain and we have substituted a temporary antenna. Bottom line, the coverage is less than it was. The damage was significant and new transmission line parts have to be manufactured. We hope to have the issue corrected and back up in at most 2 - 3 weeks if all goes well.

If I may be of further assistance please do not hesitate to contact me.

Rick Craddock
Director of Engineering
Denver's 7, KMGH - TV/DT

I got the same letter here in Arvada. It must be a form letter and he could be using the same form letter that he wrote a couple weeks ago!

Well, I said I would report back... so here are my findings after installing the Clearstream2 (I live in the Frederick/Firestone area):

I didn't take any signal strength readings with my old RCA antenna I got at Radio Shack, but the Clearstream2 is a marked improvement because I was able to pick up quite a few channels I couldn't before, including 7.1 and 9.1.

To do a quick unscientific comparison, I setup the Clearstream2 indoors in the same spot as my old antenna. It was able to pick up quite a few additional channels right off the bat. I then moved the Clearstream2 outside (on the side of the house, replacing my old satellite dish, pointing toward where I think Lookout Mountain probably is).

Here's my signal stength (based on digital stations my tuner automatically detected):

2.1, 2.2 100%
4.1 92%
6.1, 6.2 80%
7.1,7.27 56%
9.1,9.2 83%
12.1, 12.2, 12.3 92%
14.1 100%
20.1 83%
22.1 24% NO SIGNAL
25.1 92%
31.1 92%
40.1 73%
53.1 0% NO SIGNAL
59.1, 59.2, 59.3, 59.4 100%

7.1 never lost reception, broke up or had any other issues despite the low signal strength.
53.1 worked initially, but then stopped - is it working for anyone else right now?
59.1 has a weird strip of distortion along the bottom - does anyone else see the same thing?

Not sure what channels I'm missing (if any), but I really only want the basics - 2, 4, 6, 7, 9, 12, 20 and 31.

We'll see what happens after February, but so far I'm very happy with the Clearstream2.

You must be in the KMGH-DT gully that some others have complained about. Since the LCG on LOM is messing around with antennas, wait a few weeks, or maybe even until transition and report back again.

Channel 53 is in Castle Rock. You would need to point generally south to pick up their signal even though they are at transition full power.

Finally, I've noticed that some posters from the northern metro area have difficulty receiving KFCT 22-1 (woody777, cia_viewer, etc.). I receive KFCT in the high 70's on my E* receivers and the signal is very steady, no pixelation, dropouts, etc. According to TVFool, I'm 78 miles from the tower and have 1 edge reception. I'm wondering if KFCT doesn't have some antenna problems like KCNC does/did regarding nulls in certain directions, etc. or maybe my antenna is just in a sweet spot. Just a thought, and I guess it really doesn't matter to those up north since it appears KDVR's signal is strong in that direction. Which brings up the question, what purpose does KFCT serve if KDVR is receivable by everyone in KFCT's converage contour?

Yes, I sometimes wonder what the purpose of KFCT is, since I get KDVR better than I get KFCT currently. But KFCT is moving their transmitter to another location, and will significantly increase their power. I would guess that people who are using less directional indoor antennas will be able to get KFCT in areas where they may not be able to get KDVR.

KMGH is apparently operating on a temporary antenna now and anticipates the primary to be back up by Friday the 19th.

Full story here:
http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/18249365/detail.html#-

So this story is wrong

"Wrong" is a bit strong; more like "no longer accurate."

I spoke to an engineer at KCNC today and he said it's like an onion; every time they take apart a piece of the aux antenna they find more wrong.

He said that at this point the antenna manufacturer may just ship out a generic pattern antenna for them to use while they make a new aux antenna for the LCG tower.

He also mentioned that this week's weather hasn't helped much.

He also mentioned being impressed by "melted Teflon" inside the aux antenna. :eek:

So, no estimates because they keep finding more and more wrong. :(

I wonder if "toaster" reception on LOM has gotten worse or better since the antenna failed.

Yes, I sometimes wonder what the purpose of KFCT is, since I get KDVR better than I get KFCT currently. But KFCT is moving their transmitter to another location, and will significantly increase their power. I would guess that people who are using less directional indoor antennas will be able to get KFCT in areas where they may not be able to get KDVR.

I was told that LocalTV wants to sell KFCT, which is why they've asked to boost power.

- Trip

If someone is interested in purchasing a TV station in N. Colorado, I know of one that doesn't work too well that can probably be had on the cheap.:D

If someone is interested in purchasing a TV station in N. Colorado, I know of one that doesn't work too well that can probably be had on the cheap.:D

One assumes that you are commenting on KQCK-DT. Bargain price? Well, maybe. Equity Media's higher-powered (500+ kw) properties in major metro areas are drawing bids in the $5 -$10 million dollar range. Units like KQCK-DT, lower in power and in less densely-populated markets, will probably be available for a lot less, especially if they are sold from receivership rather than an administered bankruptcy.

The real question is this: Why has local television never developed in any substantial way in Norther Colorado?

I asked about this when I participated in Leadership Fort Collins during 2005-06. Folks in the local chamber of Commerce said that the prospective advertising income could never exceed the operating and affiliation costs.

Under current economic conditions, one would assume that the prospects for commercial income would be even less promising than they were in 2005.


Jim McCauley

Yes, it is down from what it was, but as I mentioned it's also still my second strongest signal from the LCG tower. I have also never even seen so much as a blockie from KTVD, where I completely lose KCNC most every morning like clockwork.
...
Yes, KCNC-DT is down in signal when coming off their main antenna, badly so, but there's also a problem that results in their signal being completely unlockable from around 8:00 AM to 10:10 AM or so each morning. The rest of the day they come in reasonably well, though obviously not with as high a signal as they have from the aux antenna.

So to recap, most of the day for me their signal varies between 58 and 68 on the 100 point TiVo S3 scale.

Most mornings between 8:00 AM and 10:30 AM or so their signal is in the low tens and I can't get a lock. When their signal comes back, i get blockies for about five minutes, then they're pretty much rock solid the other 21.5 hours a day.

That's got to be something interfering during that time period - the last time I talked to KCNC they theorized something doing a daily data transmission to an antenna on one of the mountains - or there's something that makes the signal NULL even worse during those times.

That's why I asked if you lost their signal each morning too.

Is there any way you can check their signal around 9:00 AM and see if it's down from what you see the balance of the day?

I took some readings with my Dish TR40-CRA which is connected to a second floor Channel Master 3010 antenna without any amplifier. For each sample, I observed the reading for about 5 to 15 seconds and listed the low and high values I observed.

Date_____KCNC___KTVD__KWGN
Time_____4-1____20-1___2-1

12-18
11:30PM__73-74__71-72__93-98
12-19
07:30AM__73-76__73-78__93-98
09:10AM__74-81__78-81__93-98
10:40AM__81-83__71-73__93-98
12:30PM__81-83__71-73__93-98

As you can see, I did not observe the 8AM-10AM outage you have been experiencing. The 9AM readings were actually up a little compared to overnight. This seems to be the sort of thing I have been experiencing since 12-7-08. The KCNC and KTVD signals tend to be weakest late in the evening and overnight.

If you are being hit by interference, it might be something very local and very low power. It could be something that has been present for a long time. As I have said before, I believe the person who ran tests near Harper Lake around 11-25-08 reported a 20 DB difference between the AUX and main antenna. That is 100:1 power ratio. Any low level interferece would probably have been completely overpowered if the signal received from the station was 50 to 100 times stronger than it now tends to run. Only with the low signal levels we have had from 11-15 to about 11-27-08 and from 12-07-08 till now would low level interference be a severe problem.

I suspect the problem will go away when they clean up their antenna problems and produce a signal strength pattern that looks a little more like the polar plots they have submitted to the FCC.

What I don't understand is why they have not gone back to the pre-11-15-2008 pattern for the main antenna, which seemed to be fine for much of the Denver Metro area, until they can get a final resolution for that antenna system. I really suspect that the current pattern for the main antenna causes problems for more viewers than it helps.

The talk of the delay at KMGH is amusing because today was the first time since I put up my rooftop antenna that I could pick up 7.1 and 7.27 on a scan. I'm getting a signal too weak to actually view (55-58% on my Dish OTA tuner). It was nice to see the scan pick it up, and it sounds good to me that they haven't really managed to make the fixes yet.

Hey! KMGH is coming in as strong as the other LCG signals up here in Fort Collins. Nice.

Posted by Jim McCauley:
The real question is this: Why has local television never developed in any substantial way in Norther Colorado?

I asked about this when I participated in Leadership Fort Collins during 2005-06. Folks in the local chamber of Commerce said that the prospective advertising income could never exceed the operating and affiliation costs.

Under current economic conditions, one would assume that the prospects for commercial income would be even less promising than they were in 2005.
First, I was joking about KQCK. It probably is one of the more valuable properties Equity has since it is a full power station that, if you believe the FCC coverage contours, covers virtually all of the Denver/Ft. Collins metro areas.

Just to throw in my 2 cents, I think the lack of "local" television in N. Colorado is due to the fact that the Denver stations have historically covered N. Colorado quite well. KUSA has a N. Colorado news reporter. I see car dealer ads for Ft. Collins on TV often. Adding "local" stations would be redundant, just as I see KFCT as redundant to KDVR. I really don't think revenue is a factor. Look at Cheyenne. I used to make trips up there for work and I remember folks telling me that Cheyenne annexed some land just before the 1990 census so they could add a few residents to bring the city population over 50,000, which put it in a higher class for federal aid, etc. Outside of Cheyenne, there is nothing, unless you count the chili place in Chugwater.:D Cheyenne has TV stations (incl KGWN, KLWY and some LP's) because Denver's stations don't reach Cheyenne OTA. While these stations have to generate revenue to stay in business, Cheyenne is what, 25% the size of the Ft. Collins/Greeley/Loveland area?

Hey! KMGH is coming in as strong as the other LCG signals up here in Fort Collins. Nice.
You are roughly North of LOM; I am approx. South of LOM and I'm getting 7-1 stronger than any other hd station. Last week I couldn't get 7-1 at all. Also I can't get 31-1, but KFTC 22.1 is loud & clear. Go figure.
Merry Christmas, all !

Well they said they would resume broadcasting on the primary/normal/regular/original antenna this evening and apparently they have done so, much to my reception detriment. My signal readings last night and tonight from the 100 point scale on my Dish ViP211:

KCNC-DT mid-80s down to 74
KRMA-DT low-70s now at 73 (reference from different tower)
KMGH-DT 98 to 100 down to 79
KUSA-DT low-90s down to 83
KTVD-DT mid-90s down to 84

It's nice that some of you guys a ways away are now getting KCNC and KMGH, unfortunately the change has deteriorated LOM DTV signals at my location. Now I have two local OTA DTV channels for which my signal is now low enough to allow occasional dropouts.

Even though I don't expect the LCG stations on LOM to do anything else to improve the DTV signal for my area, I don't plan to mess with my set up until after transition. I'm just tired of messing with my attic antennas ever few months for the past 4 years. If my Dish HD locals had a reliable signal, I don't think I'd even bother with the OTA anymore, as they have generally been a disappointment. I actually had stronger signals when they were broadcasting from RP downtown and my antenna was pointed that direction. Now I'm pointed at LOM and the only signal that is stronger now than when I was receiving RP direct and LOM on the side is KDVR-DT. Go figure!

I took some readings with my Dish TR40-CRA which is connected to a second floor Channel Master 3010 antenna without any amplifier. For each sample, I observed the reading for about 5 to 15 seconds and listed the low and high values I observed.

Date_____KCNC___KTVD__KWGN
Time_____4-1____20-1___2-1

12-18
11:30PM__73-74__71-72__93-98
12-19
07:30AM__73-76__73-78__93-98
09:10AM__74-81__78-81__93-98
10:40AM__81-83__71-73__93-98


Try precisely at 10:00 AM.

The start time of the issues seems indeterminate, but I haven't been able to see the first five minutes of The Price Is Right all week - for example, Friday the 19th the signal came back around 10:05 AM but I've no idea when it went out; the 8:00 AM time was based on times I've flipped by KCNC-DT in the past weeks and have found them in a state where I can't get a lock.

At 9:58 AM I checked the TiVo and it reported a signal strength of 30; seven minutes later when the picture came back in it reported it as 67.

On the 18th it was still gone at 10:20, but it's always back by 10:40.

What I don't understand is why they have not gone back to the pre-11-15-2008 pattern for the main antenna, which seemed to be fine for much of the Denver Metro area, until they can get a final resolution for that antenna system.

The problem is they can't adjust it while they're broadcasting from it and they don't want to pull the signal down to adjust it again.

I notice that here, 285 and Sheridan, KMGH is at the same signal strength as the rest of the LCG stations. The HVR 2250, which has been struggling with the signal since 12/7/2008 is getting it fine now. Even my DTT901 with Silver Sensor is able to get a good lock this morning. I will be interested to hear how some of the other folks that lost the signal when the AUX antenna went down, are doing with it today.

Phil


Hey! KMGH is coming in as strong as the other LCG signals up here in Fort Collins. Nice.

I have KMGH 7.1 back. Previously I was receiving 7.1 @ 90% before the outage now its 60%.

I only have one TV getting OTA using an inside RS Double Bow Tie. I was always able to get all stations pointing at LOM. Don't know when it happened but I couldn't get KMGH for a while. Today, it is a solid lock. Using a Zenith DTT901. I live SW of CC State Park.

KMGH-DT 7.1 is back here in S. Lafayette also. Its at 90%, same as KUSA-DT & KCNC-DT, etc. I'm still pointed at RP though.

Btw, is the Silver Sensor still the best choice for an indoor antenna now that our locals are on LOM? I remember trying one 2-3 years ago when the locals were on RP and it didn't work here.

Btw, is the Silver Sensor still the best choice for an indoor antenna now that our locals are on LOM? I remember trying one 2-3 years ago when the locals were on RP and it didn't work here.

First of all, what do you mean by "it didn't work"? You couldn't get any reception whatsoever? You couldn't get all of the local stations, or what?

In this area, I would certainly recommend the Terk HDTVi or HDTVa over the Silver Sensor because they have built-in rabbit ears. This is a major concern since we will have 4 VHF DTV stations come February.

Unfortunately, there is no indoor antenna that works equally well for everyone. I've been using a Terk HDTVa for almost a year. I was pretty happy with it at first, but in the past few months I've had more and more problems receiving all of the stations that I want because, for me, it's just too darned directional. For some people, that's a good thing. It just depends on your location.

I've had the best luck recently with my trusty Radio Shack Double Bowtie teamed with a Terk TV1 set of rabbit ears. Summit Source has a great price on the Channel Master 4149 (http://www.summitsource.com/channel-master-4149-indoor-uhf-hd-antenna-digital-bow-tie-tv-aerial-cm4149-allegro-local-signal-television-reception-gold-reflector-screen-with-balun-transformer-part-cm4149-p-7193.html) (identical to the RS version) right now.

You could also check out the following thread on indoor antennas:

EV's Best Top Rated HDTV Indoor Antenna Review Test Round-Up Guide (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1037779)

I am just using the Silver Sensor with my DTT901 (connected to a very old 13" TV in my kitchen) because I had one, or a clone, that came with one of my ATI HD tuner cards. I am only about 12 miles form the LCG tower and have line of sight (at least from my roof, not sure about from where the SS is). It does just fine with the current UHF frquencies. I have no idea what will happen when I need to get VHF high band stations. I am just hoping that I am close enough and there is enough signal that it will be OK. If not, I will just get something else. I bookmarked the link that Rick313 provided (thanks Rick) just in case.

Phil



[QUOTE=WaldorfSalad;
Btw, is the Silver Sensor still the best choice for an indoor antenna now that our locals are on LOM? I remember trying one 2-3 years ago when the locals were on RP and it didn't work here.[/QUOTE]

Try precisely at 10:00 AM.

The start time of the issues seems indeterminate, but I haven't been able to see the first five minutes of The Price Is Right all week - for example, Friday the 19th the signal came back around 10:05 AM but I've no idea when it went out; the 8:00 AM time was based on times I've flipped by KCNC-DT in the past weeks and have found them in a state where I can't get a lock.

At 9:58 AM I checked the TiVo and it reported a signal strength of 30; seven minutes later when the picture came back in it reported it as 67.

On the 18th it was still gone at 10:20, but it's always back by 10:40.


I took more readings with my Dish TR40-CRA which is connected to a second floor Channel Master 3010 antenna without any amplifier. For each sample, I observed the reading for about 5 to 15 seconds and listed the low and high values I observed.

Date_____KCNC___KTVD__KMGH__KUSA
Time_____4-1____20-1___7-1____9-1
12-22-08
02:00AM__76-80__71-73__90-93__78-80
10:00AM__73-74__76-80__88-93__80-81
12:50PM__85-93__83-93__88-93__74-78

I have never observed the 10AM thing at my location.
I started observing KCNC at about 9:57AM for about 5 minutes, with no significant change.

KMGH was in the mid to upper 80s after the 12-7-08 failure of the AUX antenna. Starting Saturday, 12-20, the readings have had high values in the low 90s. That is close to the 11-29-2008 reading set I took shortly after KCNC-DT moved to AUX antenna, and I was getting 90s for KCNC, KMGH and KTVD.

Those 12:50PM readings were the first ones for KCNC and KTVD with high marks in the 90s that I have observed since the 12-7-08 AUX failure. I don't know whether they changed anything. I won't jump to any conclusion. I have seen KCNC get into the mid 80s during the day a couple of times, during the last 2 weeks.

Well - I now get 6.1 for the first time and got 7.1 back

I just got a DTVPal DVR, and it locks on 6.1 also--first time I've ever received it for more than a few seconds. So, is this just a favorable atmosphere, or does this thing have an especially good tuner? KUSA seems solid also.

Mark

I just got a DTVPal DVR, and it locks on 6.1 also--first time I've ever received it for more than a few seconds. So, is this just a favorable atmosphere, or does this thing have an especially good tuner? KUSA seems solid also.

Mark

Your DTVPal DVR does have the latest generation of ATSC tuner, so it is less affected by multi-path issues than any older ATSC tuners. However, I've noticed that the current stretch of cold, crisp weather has been extremely kind to many of my DTV signals. So, in answer to your question, I think it is a bit of both.

I have never observed the 10AM thing at my location.
I started observing KCNC at about 9:57AM for about 5 minutes, with no significant change.

I think KCNC-DT's back on the aux antenna, is today is the first complete recording of The Price Is Right I've seen since the aux antenna burned up.

Right now I'm seeing readings if 95-96 (on a scale of 100); I've never seen a reading above 80 from KCNC-DT when broadcasting from the main antenna since they mucked with it 11/18.

I'm also one who has noticed that KCNC's digital signal is being received at a much higher strength in the last day or so.

...complete recording of The Price Is Right I've seen since the aux antenna burned up.

Until now I didn't know that anyone who felt the need to time shift "The Price is Right". ;)

By Sunday, my KMGH signal increased about 10% from 79 to 87 out of 100 (remember I had been reading 98 to 100 with the emergency setup after the antenna burn-up). That's the good news. KCNC, OTOH, is now down to the low 70s (started late yesterday) after being in the mid to high 80s on the emergency setup. KCNC worries me far more than KMGH since KMGH will make a quantum change on 2/17/09, while KCNC may be as good as it gets (which may be a long term problem for me).

By Sunday, my KMGH signal increased about 10% from 79 to 87 out of 100 (remember I had been reading 98 to 100 with the emergency setup after the antenna burn-up). That's the good news. KCNC, OTOH, is now down to the low 70s (started late yesterday) after being in the mid to high 80s on the emergency setup. KCNC worries me far more than KMGH since KMGH will make a quantum change on 2/17/09, while KCNC may be as good as it gets (which may be a long term problem for me).

Isn't that comparable to what you were getting from KCNC when they were last broadcasting from the aux antenna? They do intend to fix their main antenna at some point, and of course couldn't work on it until they were broadcasting from the aux again.

Until now I didn't know that anyone who felt the need to time shift "The Price is Right". ;)

I've watched it off and on since I was a kid, and now that they've gone HD and Drew Carey's hosting it's quite entertaining…

Isn't that comparable to what you were getting from KCNC when they were last broadcasting from the aux antenna? They do intend to fix their main antenna at some point, and of course couldn't work on it until they were broadcasting from the aux again.



I've watched it off and on since I was a kid, and now that they've gone HD and Drew Carey's hosting it's quite entertaining…

Yes, that is on the low end of what I was getting post-11/15. I'm somewhat confused as to which antenna is which anymore since they were on one pre-1/15, then a different one post 11/15, then a different one after the antenna burn-up, and now they are on whatever. I hope there is still hope that by 2/17, KCNC will have a stronger signal at my location.

I'm just putting my toes into the digital broadcast world, because I decided to cut costs by dropping comcast. I've read the last month of posts on this thread, and I've noticed that some of you are in Bear Valley like me. However, I'm not only down in Bear Valley (100 yards from Bear Creek), but I also have Green Mountain between me and Lookout Mountain. I apologize for the length of this post, but I've tried to provide as much information as possible, because I figure (hope :D ) there may be someone that has already overcome this exact problem.

I live in a townhouse community, so I'm not allowed to put an outdoor antenna on my roof, and I was thinking about an in-attic antenna, but I don't know if I'd need an amplifier or just a better antenna. Last night I put my rabbit ears w/ UHF loop on a long coaxial cable and put it on my 2nd floor right against the wall facing LOM. My signal didn't improve (was around 80-85 and stayed there on channel 6.1).

My tuner is the one built into my TV (JVC I'll have to get the exact model when I get home), and I can receive pretty much all of the analog stations. When I moved my rabbit ears to my 2nd story, all of my analog channels came in almost completely clear.

I only receive about 3 digital channels on average (6.1 (KRMA-DT), 6.2 (V-me), and 14.1 (KTFD-DT) ), with two of them being spanish language channels. While I can speak spanish well enough to understand what's happening on the show, I'd like to be able to get more of the english language digital stations. I rescan the channels fairly regularly, and at one point my tuner found 9 channels, but I could still only watch 4 of them (KCNC 4.1 is one that I can't get since Sunday). Very often it'll find a channel that my system will see the call sign, but the signal is at zero (0) even if I watch the signal for several minutes. On the good stations if I move the rabbit ears even slightly I can cause the signal to go from 80 to zero. It's almost like there is no wiggle room on antenna adjustment.

One thing that makes no sense is that on tvfool.com, they say that at my location the nominal power on a channel that I don't receive (20.1) is 754kW, but on 6.1 it's only 13.8kW. The NM on those two stations is suppsed to be 39 and 35, and they both have a path of "1Edge".

So all of that to get to my questions. Is there going to be some kind of repeater on Green Mountain for those of us in Bear Valley? Do they even care? Is there some sort of attic antenna that will bring in the weaker signals (I only have 2 LOS, the rest are 1Edge and 2Edge)? I'm not even sure if it's a strength issue, because according to tvfool I should be able to easily receive everything above 20NM. There are 8 above 20NM and another 6 that are still above 10NM.

I'll have to run wire through my walls since I can't run the wires outside (HOA rules), so I'd like to know what will help before I go through all that effort and expense. Worst case scenario, I hadn't watched TV in about a month before I started playing with digital this past Sunday, but it'd be nice to watch the news once in a while.

Thanks in advance!

-Laura

I live in a townhouse community, so I'm not allowed to put an outdoor antenna on my roof
-Laura

Hi Laura,
You need to look at the following link (http://www.fcc.gov/mb/facts/otard.html) to see if it helps you out with the antenna.

For everyone,
The Consumerist (http://www.consumerist.com) put up a flow chart on what to do for the digital transition. I think you'll get a kick out of it.

here (http://consumerist.com/5116811/a-very-simple-flowchart-explaining-the-digital-tv-transition)

Dave

Yes, that is on the low end of what I was getting post-11/15. I'm somewhat confused as to which antenna is which anymore since they were on one pre-1/15, then a different one post 11/15, then a different one after the antenna burn-up, and now they are on whatever. I hope there is still hope that by 2/17, KCNC will have a stronger signal at my location.I believe that KCNC normally operated from the main antenna from the time of the move to LOM until 11-29-08. The problem that surfaced on 11-15-08 was when they changed the power pattern on the main antenna.
They had been applying almost all the power to the 2 east side panels. On 11-15, they started applying the power equally to 4 of the 5 panels. They don't power the 270 degree panel. The power is applied to the 342, 54, 126, and 198 degree panels.
When the problems were reported, they originally thought it was just because the power to the east was down a little because they had not made the overal power boost yet, but then they realized that there was a problem in the pattern that they had not been aware of. That is why they switched to the AUX antenna on 11-29-08. KCNC operated on the AUX antenna until it failed on 12-7-08, and they were forced to switch back to the main antenna.
KTVD was on the AUX antenna on 12-7-08 and also switched to the main antenna.

It appears that on Monday, KCNC and KTVD switched to a different antenna, or made a change to the main antenna. I have no idea which.
For me KMGH seemd to change on Sunday, but it was never weak enough to be an issue for me. I don't know what antenna they switched to when the AUX failed on 12-7-08, nor what equipment they are currently using.

All the LGC stations are acceptable for me, based on my last checks. I have had signals that appeared to be a little stronger, in the past, but the current levels are good enough.

Has anyone heard what the current configurations of KCNC, KTVD, and KMGH are from a reliable source?

KCNC, KMGH & KTVD are all coming in about the same as before the "incident" at my location 63 miles north of the tower.

KUSA never went off the air, but their signal seems to be a bit weaker at my location. I frequently get sound drops and occasional freezing and blockiness that were not happening before.

Your DTVPal DVR does have the latest generation of ATSC tuner, so it is less affected by multi-path issues than any older ATSC tuners. However, I've noticed that the current stretch of cold, crisp weather has been extremely kind to many of my DTV signals. So, in answer to your question, I think it is a bit of both.

Can we use this $250 DTVPal as a standalone HD OTA tuner+DVR, without any kind of Dish service ? It seems to say so, but this almost seems to be too good to be true. Will that work? My old Digital Stream is going bad, so this might be a great replacement.

Here's your chance to show KRMA how well or poorly you're getting their DTV channel 18 signal.
This is especially important for those of us living up north, where we are having problems. Perhaps this will make them realize how bad it is.

Go to the website below and enter your location and reception quality, and it will show up on the map.


http://www.rmpbs.org/map/

see associated story
http://www.rmpbs.org/panorama/index.cfm/entry/366/A-converter-box-may-be-the-perfect-gift-this-season!

Can we use this $250 DTVPal as a standalone HD OTA tuner+DVR, without any kind of Dish service ? It seems to say so, but this almost seems to be too good to be true. Will that work? My old Digital Stream is going bad, so this might be a great replacement.

You can do exactly that. It is an OTA-only DTV-only two-tuner DVR, with no monthly fees. Strangely, it does have a "smart card" for some reason. Check out the HDTV Recorders forum for more information.

Mark

Is there going to be some kind of repeater on Green Mountain for those of us in Bear Valley? Do they even care?

No and probably no, because it shouldn't be necessary. Rabbit ears aren't good, particularly in a low spot like Bear Creek.

Is there some sort of attic antenna that will bring in the weaker signals...

Lots of compact, outdoor antennas designed for our situation are small enough to fit inside an attic, even in a townhouse. Search online for the Channel Master 2018 and the Winegard HD-7694. The W-G is smaller, has slightly better performance specs and is a tad less expensive. These are good antennas that should serve you well. You won't need antenna amplification for one TV if you choose either.

Whatever you do, stay out of the big boxes. Most of what they sell won't work for you, and any offerings that would do the job are almost always horribly overpriced.

I'll have to run wire through my walls since I can't run the wires outside (HOA rules), so I'd like to know what will help before I go through all that effort and expense.

You might be able to hide the coax downlead in closets, the pantry, garage, etc., so that it's mostly invisible in the living space. That's how I installed the lead for our attic antenna.

Here's your chance to show KRMA how well or poorly you're getting their DTV channel 18 signal.
This is especially important for those of us living up north, where we are having problems. Perhaps this will make them realize how bad it is.

Go to the website below and enter your location and reception quality, and it will show up on the map.


http://www.rmpbs.org/map/

see associated story
http://www.rmpbs.org/panorama/index.cfm/entry/366/A-converter-box-may-be-the-perfect-gift-this-season!

I input my data, but when I checked back, it wasn't recorded on the map.

I'm just putting my toes into the digital broadcast world, because I decided to cut costs by dropping comcast. I've read the last month of posts on this thread, and I've noticed that some of you are in Bear Valley like me. However, I'm not only down in Bear Valley (100 yards from Bear Creek), but I also have Green Mountain between me and Lookout Mountain.

...and I was thinking about an in-attic antenna, but I don't know if I'd need an amplifier or just a better antenna. Last night I put my rabbit ears w/ UHF loop on a long coaxial cable and put it on my 2nd floor right against the wall facing LOM. My signal didn't improve (was around 80-85 and stayed there on channel 6.1).

My tuner is the one built into my TV (JVC I'll have to get the exact model when I get home), and I can receive pretty much all of the analog stations. When I moved my rabbit ears to my 2nd story, all of my analog channels came in almost completely clear.

I only receive about 3 digital channels on average (6.1 (KRMA-DT), 6.2 (V-me), and 14.1 (KTFD-DT) ), with two of them being spanish language channels. I rescan the channels fairly regularly, and at one point my tuner found 9 channels, but I could still only watch 4 of them (KCNC 4.1 is one that I can't get since Sunday). Very often it'll find a channel that my system will see the call sign, but the signal is at zero (0) even if I watch the signal for several minutes. On the good stations if I move the rabbit ears even slightly I can cause the signal to go from 80 to zero. It's almost like there is no wiggle room on antenna adjustment.

One thing that makes no sense is that on tvfool.com, they say that at my location the nominal power on a channel that I don't receive (20.1) is 754kW, but on 6.1 it's only 13.8kW. The NM on those two stations is suppsed to be 39 and 35, and they both have a path of "1Edge".

Is there some sort of attic antenna that will bring in the weaker signals (I only have 2 LOS, the rest are 1Edge and 2Edge)? I'm not even sure if it's a strength issue, because according to tvfool I should be able to easily receive everything above 20NM. There are 8 above 20NM and another 6 that are still above 10NM.

I'll have to run wire through my walls since I can't run the wires outside (HOA rules), so I'd like to know what will help before I go through all that effort and expense.

Thanks in advance!

-Laura

Channels listed as 2Edge will be very difficult to receive and you may end up relying on bounced signals. Are any of your 2Edge channels the local majors and major independents? If so, and if you want to receive them, you may end up needing a mid-size pre-amp.

The DTV channels you currently receive are on Mt. Morrison, not LOM, so you are currently blocked out from the LOM channels. Rabbit ears won't help with DTV until after transition when KMGH, KUSA, and KBDI go back to broadcasting on VHF frequencies instead of UHF frequencies. Right now, all the DTV broadcasts in the metro-Denver area are on UHF frequencies. The simple UHF loop antenna is a poor UHF antenna and you would do better today with almost any other UHF antenna, large or small.

Running coax through the walls is a PITA, so be sure you know where you plan to have your antenna "forever" and where you plan to have your TV "forever". You won't want to do it twice. If you do it right, you'll end up with some small cutouts in your drywall that will need to be repaired by someone who knows how to make the repair disappear into the wall. BTW, if you run coax in the walls, be sure it is RG-6, rated for "in wall" use (CL2), and preferably quad-shielded. A lot of coax isn't rated for in wall use and that is a building and electric code issue that could come back to bite you if you ever try to sell your townhouse.

Good luck.

http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk159/adam1115/dtvflowchart.jpg

It appears that on Monday, KCNC and KTVD switched to a different antenna, or made a change to the main antenna.

From what I was told was the plan, they switched to a "loaner" aux antenna, as, as I mentioned above, they couldn't do any work on the main antenna until they were no longer broadcasting from it, which would have required extended down time.

Things will be changing again once the aux antenna manufacturer figures out why the old aux antenna burned up and replaces it, and then again when KCNC's antenna designer figures out the nulls for the main antenna and KCNC switches back to the main antenna.

The only variable in this scenario is whether they are on a loaner aux antenna or if the manufacturer figured out what went wrong with their custom aux antenna and replaced it.

I do know that antenna crews have been on the tower working on things non-stop, weather permitting, since the aux antenna ate itself.

I wonder when KUSA will fix the studio camera breakup on the digital channel. There recorded stories do not have it, but studio shots do. It is not noticeable on the analog channel. It must be something in their switching equipment or digital processing. I noticed it at both 5:00 and 10:00 tonight.

Posted by Phil T
I wonder when KUSA will fix the studio camera breakup on the digital channel. There recorded stories do not have it, but studio shots do. It is not noticeable on the analog channel. It must be something in their switching equipment or digital processing. I noticed it at both 5:00 and 10:00 tonight.
On the 10:00 PM news tonight, I noticed what appeared to be dropped frames, for lack of a better description, where the video stops and studders over a period of a couple of seconds. Is this what you're referring to? I thought I was just getting dropouts.

I wonder when KUSA will fix the studio camera breakup on the digital channel. There recorded stories do not have it, but studio shots do. It is not noticeable on the analog channel. It must be something in their switching equipment or digital processing. I noticed it at both 5:00 and 10:00 tonight.

I noticed the dropouts and weird dotty interference as well. It appears to be on one of their three floor cameras and is most prevelant when showing Adele. It is clearly the camera as the sound is never messed up.

I haven't sent an email to them since Don Perez left. Does anybody have an engineering contact email to ask about this? I can't imagine they don't know about it. I would suspect they do and can't easily get around the problem with one camera. Their cameras are all computer controlled 'robots' and do not have a person behind them. The only camera that a person runs is the one on a long boom that they can move all over the place.

I input my data, but when I checked back, it wasn't recorded on the map.

Zoom into the map and double check.

My report is definitely listed and was pretty much after I entered it, so perhaps it was a web site fluke.

One thing that makes no sense is that on tvfool.com, they say that at my location the nominal power on a channel that I don't receive (20.1) is 754kW, but on 6.1 it's only 13.8kW. The NM on those two stations is suppsed to be 39 and 35, and they both have a path of "1Edge".

Hi Laura,

Just wanted to add - don't be confused about the power. The kW figure sounds like what the stations are shoveling out, not what happens to hit your antenna location.

From Fort Collins with an outside antenna and a preamp, I'm getting reception of all the stations TVFool says have a strength greater than an NM or 0 dB. That's good, and better than you will get from your attic. You'll have a figure like that - a threshold of how good the signal has to be before your tuner likes it. Off-axis stuff or stuff with multipath will both be harder to pick up. I think I have some overload with a few particular strong signals, which could be an issue for you as well.

Rob T

I live in a townhouse community, so I'm not allowed to put an outdoor antenna on my roof, and I was thinking about an in-attic antenna, but I don't know if I'd need an amplifier or just a better antenna.
Thanks in advance!

-Laura

Laura:

What Dave was trying to say, but wanted you to do the research to find out, is that your HOA cannot, by federal law, deny you the right to put an antenna on your roof or deny reasonable cabling. They may try to bully you into thinking they have this power, but they do not. Just take a copy of that link to a meeting with the committee and they will cave.

That said, it won't earn you the Association's Member of the Month award, but it will get you digital TV.

Posted by DennisMileHi:
Does anybody have an engineering contact email to ask about this?
The engineer contact at KUSA is Ken Highberger [ken.highberger@9news.com]

Posted by MRinDenver:
What Dave was trying to say, but wanted you to do the research to find out, is that your HOA cannot, by federal law, deny you the right to put an antenna on your roof or deny reasonable cabling. They may try to bully you into thinking they have this power, but they do not. Just take a copy of that link to a meeting with the committee and they will cave.
Many townhome owners do not own the roof - it is common area. If it's common area, the HOA has every right to deny installation of an antenna on the roof.

Posted by DennisMileHi:Many townhome owners do not own the roof - it is common area. If it's common area, the HOA has every right to deny installation of an antenna on the roof.

This is correct and why an appropriately facing patio is often needed.

And a happy new year.

--- CHAS

Re: Reporting KRMA-DT reception to RMPBS via http://www.rmpbs.org/map/

I input my data, but when I checked back, it wasn't recorded on the map.

You might check back. My input did not appear immediately, but it's there now.


Jim McCauley

Re: Reporting KRMA-DT reception to RMPBS via http://www.rmpbs.org/map/



You might check back. My input did not appear immediately, but it's there now.


Jim McCauley

I checked again and it wasn't there so I put in the data again. This time it worked. I think that I may have not clicked on the location verification button on the page that appears after you submit your data the first time I did it.

I entered my data on the interactive map some time ago. Though with my new DTVPal DVR I can get KRMA-DT part of the time, it definitely isn't reliable.

I think my antenna may move a bit in the wind, because the weaker channels (7-X, 9-X, 20-1) have some breakups today, and KRMA is mostly invisible.

Mark

Well KCNC's DTV signal has hit an all time low for me over the past few days. This morning it is in the high 60s, occasionally hitting 70. 60 is my minimum for lock and signals in the 60s are highly susceptible to breakups and pixelation, as well as any local interference.

KMGH OTOH has been holding steading in the high 80s for days and currently isn't a problem at all. While it isn't hitting the 100/100 I got after the antenna failure, it is much stronger than the 79 I got when they first moved off the emergency antenna.

Well KCNC's DTV signal has hit an all time low for me over the past few days.

I wonder if you could be getting too much signal from them and overdriving your tuner. I consistantly receive KCNC at 85-90% via an indoor antenna at probably twice your distance from LOM. Unless there is something blocking your reception, I don't know why you would be getting such poor reception.

I experienced a lot of breakups and short losses of signal from KUSA during their 10:00 news tonight. I switched to the E* feed and it had a yellow screen - total loss of signal. What is up with KUSA lately?

Edit:
Wow, I hit the 1000 post mark. If sCARE was still an issue, I'd probably be at 2000!

I experienced a lot of breakups and short losses of signal from KUSA during their 10:00 news tonight. I switched to the E* feed and it had a yellow screen - total loss of signal. What is up with KUSA lately?

Edit:
Wow, I hit the 1000 post mark. If sCARE was still an issue, I'd probably be at 2000!

I was watching on D* and lost the picture and I switched to OTA where there was some break-up. I swear I can see a better picture with OTA than D* but it may just be me.

It's not just you. OTA at my house is sharper, more vivid. My D* locals are soft looking.
It IS worth all the trouble.

I consistantly receive KCNC at 85-90% via an indoor antenna at probably twice your distance from LOM. Unless there is something blocking your reception, I don't know why you would be getting such poor reception.

Depends on where you are. Before the antenna troubles, KCNC-DT used to be 87/100 over here, all the time. It didn't change regardless of variation in time of day, weather or humidity. It's now averaging about 72, but ranges between 70-80. KCNC doesn't drop out, but being that much closer to the cliff with a signal level that regularly bounces up and down in that range is a bit disconcerting. These levels started happening right about the time our friends up in Louisville, etc., stopped complaining about not getting CBS4's digital broadcast. One has to surmise that the station's efforts to restore coverage in the southeastern Boulder County area resulted in a compromise that weakened its signal to some extent toward the east.

I would have suspected incipient receive antenna issues except that none of the non-LCG digitals have strayed from normal (high 80s) during the past several weeks, and signal levels for KMGH-DT, KUSA-DT and KTVD-DT have pretty much returned to "pre-trouble" levels in the low to mid 80s. For reference, I have separate VHF and UHF antennas mounted in the attic.

I wonder if you could be getting too much signal from them and overdriving your tuner. I consistantly receive KCNC at 85-90% via an indoor antenna at probably twice your distance from LOM. Unless there is something blocking your reception, I don't know why you would be getting such poor reception.

Well I considered that, but KCNC isn't pumping out any more ERP now than they have been over the past few months, so why the new low? I've decided that I'm not going mess around with my antennas and pre-amp until after transition since things are constantly in planned and unplanned flux up on the mountains. The only exception to that decision will be if I lose one or more channels completely.

I would have suspected incipient receive antenna issues except that none of the non-LCG digitals have strayed from normal (high 80s) during the past several weeks, and signal levels for KMGH-DT, KUSA-DT and KTVD-DT have pretty much returned to "pre-trouble" levels in the low to mid 80s. For reference, I have separate VHF and UHF antennas mounted in the attic.

That's what I'm seeing also. KMGH, KUSA, and KTVD have returned to their strongest or near strongest levels since they cranked up on LOM (not counting the great signals I got from the emergency antenna). Only KCNC has been degrading over time. In the past few days I've seen signal readings as low as 65 from KCNC and that's getting really close to losing lock. Meanwhile the others from the LCG tower are humming along in the mid to high 80s or even low 90s.

Yesterday, KCNC had a strong signal here. Today it is so weak that my receiver can't lock on it. None of the other stations' signals have decreased.

Yesterday, KCNC had a strong signal here. Today it is so weak that my receiver can't lock on it. None of the other stations' signals have decreased.

I guess they decided that since its Sunday, and NOBODY WATCHES FOOTBALL, this is a good time to switch back to the main antenna, which they know HAS A SERIOUS COVERAGE PROBLEM.

Well I considered that, but KCNC isn't pumping out any more ERP now than they have been over the past few months, so why the new low? I've decided that I'm not going mess around with my antennas and pre-amp until after transition since things are constantly in planned and unplanned flux up on the mountains. The only exception to that decision will be if I lose one or more channels completely.
I certainly have not heard what is going on. I asked a week ago if anyone had heard for certain what configuration LCG was using, and I have not noticed a response that indicates that anyone had been told for sure. Someone had been told that they were going to try to get a loner for the burned out AUX antenna. My GUESS is that they did get that loner, and brought it online last weekend. That was when the Lafayette KMGH problem went away, and when my KCNC and KTVD problems here in Louisville went away. I did notice what appeared too be a slight drop in KUSA at the same time. I had thought that they all might have moved to the loner. I had hoped they had all gotten off the main antenna so it could be fixed. If they were using a loner, it would probably not be directional, which means power would be wasted to the west, which would make the east a little weaker. If they were all on a generic loner, the weaker east signals should be temporary.

It also appears that KCNC has gone back off the loner and on to the main antenna, which should give you a little more signal while virtually wiping out those on the Louisville line.

KCNC is back up to 100% for me as it was before the antenna fiasco. KTVD & KMGH are lower than before the fiasco, especially KMGH @ 50->60%. Used to be 80%. KTVD is now @ 80% used to be 100%.

KCNC is back up to 100% for me as it was before the antenna fiasco. KTVD & KMGH are lower than before the fiasco, especially KMGH @ 50->60%. Used to be 80%. KTVD is now @ 80% used to be 100%.
Which Fiaso are you talking about. 11-15-2008 when they changed the pattern of the main antenna, or 12-7-2008 when the AUX antenna failed, or do you have some other date in mind?

I had fine reception of KCNC from the move to LOM until 11-15. It was terrible from 11-15 to about 11-29. Excellent from 11-29 to 12-7. Terrible from 12-7 to 12-20. Quite good from 12-20 till today. Terrible again today.

When I checked at 2AM on 12-29-08, it looked like KTVD and KCNC have both gone back to the main antenna. Both stations are now extremely weak for me in Louisville.
I really wonder what they are up to.

Just wanted to pass along some info. I just purchased a Samsung H260F OTA receiver. Wow, very impressed with it's sensitivity. Much better than my Dish 622 OTA tuner.

I can now pull in Cheyenne and KRMA again.

[QUOTE=santellavision;15404972 ....I can now pull in Cheyenne and KRMA again.[/QUOTE]

Speaking of Cheyenne, are those stations a full power? I just installed a new HR21 Pro (very nice unit, btw) and Direct is sending me an AM21 for OTA reception.

Should I turn my antenna north? Anything there that we don't get here?

Laura:

What Dave was trying to say, but wanted you to do the research to find out, is that your HOA cannot, by federal law, deny you the right to put an antenna on your roof or deny reasonable cabling. They may try to bully you into thinking they have this power, but they do not. Just take a copy of that link to a meeting with the committee and they will cave.

That said, it won't earn you the Association's Member of the Month award, but it will get you digital TV.
I read that, and I read the flow chart, thank you.

I apologize for the time gap in my response, I was just being lazy over the holiday... and, by the way, now I get zero DTV channels, but I still need to buy the in-attic antenna.

One of the reasons I moved into the community that I did is because of the aesthetic, so I fundamentally agree with not putting antennas outside in this community. So I don't want to put one up even though the federal law says I can. Mainly because I'm sure I'll get complaint after complaint if I do upset my neighbors, and I just don't want to stir that hornets nest. After all, it's usually your neighbors that tell the HOA that you're violating in some way that you may not realize.

One thing I always say to people who care more about being right is that if I'm crossing a street in a crosswalk and a car comes speeding by... I'm going to stop even though I have the right of way. I'd rather be alive than right. So by the same token, I'd rather have friendly neighbors than be right.... I plan on living here for a long time.

So with that in mind, if I can't get all of the channels, then so be it. I just would like to get the majors and a few of the minors... mainly to have a choice in what I want to watch. I'll probably try to buy the one mentioned a few posts before ... the Winegard HD7694.

Many townhome owners do not own the roof - it is common area. If it's common area, the HOA has every right to deny installation of an antenna on the roof.

Now that you mention it... they own the siding-out and the roof. If my roof has a leak, they fix it.... so yes, they own the roof.

I'm not even sure if it's a strength issue, because according to tvfool I should be able to easily receive everything above 20NM. There are 8 above 20NM and another 6 that are still above 10NM.

My attic antennas are definitely good down to a 20 dB noise margin, and maybe a tad less. You should expect similar results from an HD-7694 as long as it's not aimed toward anything metal. This can be anything from visible components like steel ducts or foil-backed insulation to signal-blocking roof and siding materials such as tile, stucco, brick, stone or aluminum. Wooden or vinyl siding and asphalt shingles, OTOH, aren't much of a signal barrier in our dry climate. Signals at a 10 dB noise margin would be a stretch for any attic antenna.

My roof line is about 5 feet higher than my neighbor, so I believe that I'll only be going through a standard attic wall (not the roof slope)... or maybe aimed towards the corner between the side wall and the roof.

Or which would it be better to try to aim through? The wall or the roof?

Here is my tvfool pre-change
http://www.flickr.com/photos/75636845@N00/3148831470/sizes/o/

Here is my tvfool post-change
http://www.flickr.com/photos/75636845@N00/3148127559/sizes/o/in/photostream/

My antennaweb.org channel list only shows a few in the yellow zone, the rest are red or worse. No green or light green. :(

I'm a newbie at this stuff, but this looks pretty bad compared to everyone else that I've seen post their graphs. I put 25 feet, because I have a crawlspace that's puts my first floor above ground level, then 2 stories plus the attic. I'm sure my guess is off.

My antennaweb.org channel list only shows a few in the yellow zone, the rest are red or worse. No green or light green. :(

I'm a newbie at this stuff, but this looks pretty bad compared to everyone else that I've seen post their graphs. I put 25 feet, because I have a crawlspace that's puts my first floor above ground level, then 2 stories plus the attic. I'm sure my guess is off.

AntennaWeb tends to be very conservative, a big reason it can look so bleak. BTW: Winegard doesn't classify antennas by the CEA color codes found on AntennaWeb; however, an HD-7694 definitely qualifies for the Red zone.

The two TVFool reports are a big help. The lists show stations from strongest to weakest, and what they tell me is that pre-transition, you should be in good shape for everything from KUSA 9.x and above; ABC and CW may be marginal for now. From Feb. 18 on, the news gets quite a bit better as DTV stations broadcasting from the foothills (everyone except Ion and Telemundo) will be increasing power. Forget about Ion -- at an 11.5 dB noise margin, it's going to be tough to get from the attic both now and later.

Based on your description, 25 feet is a reasonable estimate. Being off by a few feet won't skew the results in a meaningful way.

Either the wall or roof deck will be fine for aiming the antenna as long as the townhouse is wood or composite siding over a wood frame.

I am using ota dtv in Boulder via an attic antenna.

I'm receiving these dtv channels (some have a secondary):
2,4,6,7,14,20,31

I don't have a signal strength meter.

I noticed that I lost reception of nbc-dtv9 as of a few weeks ago, so I've wondered if there was a change in the signal strength or source location. I'd rather not hassle with adjusting my attic antenna if there's reason to believe that the nbc-dtv9 will resume higher power sometime soon. Any ideas about if/when that will be happening?

Also, is there reason to expect any (specific or general) improvements in Boulder dtv reception after the big change in February '09, or is the current dtv landscape more or less what I should expect for a long time to come...

thanks!
dc

Hi, everyone. I've been following this forum for over a year and a half now, but haven't posted until tonight.
I live in Green Valley Ranch, in extreme northeast Denver, with only a few treetops blocking line-of-sight between my amplified, roof-mounted Antennas Direct C4 and Lookout Mountain.
I've recently noticed channels 9.1 and 9.2 in particular having much more digital erosion in their signals than usual, but tonight those signals have disappeared altogether. Did their antenna go down or what?
I've e-mailed Ken Hightower about it and even called the 9Wants to Know line, but have had no response.
Seriously -- are THEY ready for the "Digital Transition?"

Sure enough, checked the TiVo and it's a partial recording of The Price Is Right, the first partial in a week.

KCNC-DT's definitely switched back to the main antenna, for whatever reason.

KUSA-DT's down in strength here too, but I expect they don't care too much as they're not going to be using that transmitter or antenna post-transition, and during their test as digital 9 a few weeks back they came blasting in.

Even then, no blockies on KUSA-DT here, where I have the usual 10:00 AM issue with KCNC-DT again.

I am using ota dtv in Boulder via an attic antenna.

I'm receiving these dtv channels (some have a secondary):
2,4,6,7,14,20,31

I don't have a signal strength meter.

I noticed that I lost reception of nbc-dtv9 as of a few weeks ago, so I've wondered if there was a change in the signal strength or source location. I'd rather not hassle with adjusting my attic antenna if there's reason to believe that the nbc-dtv9 will resume higher power sometime soon. Any ideas about if/when that will be happening?

Also, is there reason to expect any (specific or general) improvements in Boulder dtv reception after the big change in February '09, or is the current dtv landscape more or less what I should expect for a long time to come...

thanks!
dc

Where in Boulder? I'm in SoBo (east of Broadway, north of Table Mesa). Rooftop antenna - never been able to pull in 2 over DTV. While I'm not getting much of anything DTV with this wind, I'm only getting 6, 59.1 (not 2,3, or 4), 20, 25 at the moment. Everything else is either no signal or breaking up so badly I just get the frozen pixelated screen.
On a non-hurricane wind day I get -
4, 7, 6.1, 6.2, 9.1, 9.2, 17, 20, 25, 32, 34, 59.1 - 59.4.

I can see ch 2 but can't get enough signal to lock. Can't see 12 on digital all since they're on Squaw Mountain.

Given that we get regular Bora's and Chinooks - this is going to be a major PITA if the DTV signals are going to be virtually lost in big winds.

There is a letter to the editor in the Post today from an average citizen complaining about her problems with Digital TV. She is right on with her complaints. Here is the link:
http://blogs.denverpost.com/eletters/2008/12/29/problems-with-the-switch-to-digital-tv/

You've got to hope that when the cutover occurs and the statopms all go to higher power that the problems will at least be minimized somewhat. This all stems from the years and years of sCARE obstructions that kept the Denver community from strong digital signals. As a result, we are behind almost every major market in the USA in getting these problems behind us.

My roof line is about 5 feet higher than my neighbor, so I believe that I'll only be going through a standard attic wall (not the roof slope)... or maybe aimed towards the corner between the side wall and the roof.

Or which would it be better to try to aim through? The wall or the roof?

It depends on the materials of construction of both, including those materials you can't see. In my case, going through the roof (wood covered by a thick vinyl paper covered by light weight concrete tile) blocks far less signal than going through the wall (drywall, fiberglass insulation, aluminum foil outer insulation backing, thick plastic wrap, some kind of composite shingles). Try both to determine which blocks the least signal.

BTW, metal pipes/ducts that may be within the desired reception beam-width of your antenna aren't much of a problem if they are in a vertical orientation, unless they are very wide or you aim your antenna right at them. Horizontal pipes/ducts can have a major impact on antenna reception.

KUSA-DT's down in strength here too, but I expect they don't care too much as they're not going to be using that transmitter or antenna post-transition, and during their test as digital 9 a few weeks back they came blasting in.

Even then, no blockies on KUSA-DT here, where I have the usual 10:00 AM issue with KCNC-DT again.

KUSA-DT has been on the verge of breaking up at my location for about a month now. Occasional blocking and frequent sound glitches. I'm not going to do anything with my setup until after the switch on 2/17.

I'm contemplating taking my pre-amp out of the system after the switch since I think I may not need it. I'm thinking that the 10 - 14 Db gain from my antennas should get the stations I have a chance of getting and the 2.5 - 3 Db noise value from the pre-amp will be more of a detriment than the pre-amp helps since I have only about 35 feet of RG-6 coax from the antennas to the TV.

Right now, I have had to insert a variable attenuator into the antenna lead in order to receive KCNC-DT. Without the attenuator, KCNC-DT shows a very weak signal (25%), but with it, their signal is about 80%.

Here is my tvfool pre-change
http://www.flickr.com/photos/75636845@N00/3148831470/sizes/o/

Here is my tvfool post-change
http://www.flickr.com/photos/75636845@N00/3148127559/sizes/o/in/photostream/

My antennaweb.org channel list only shows a few in the yellow zone, the rest are red or worse. No green or light green. :(

I'm a newbie at this stuff, but this looks pretty bad compared to everyone else that I've seen post their graphs. I put 25 feet, because I have a crawlspace that's puts my first floor above ground level, then 2 stories plus the attic. I'm sure my guess is off.

I think your elevation estimate will do fine.

When you start experimenting with antenna reception, use a compass. I'd point it at 300 degrees to start, then move left and right between 290 and 310 degrees and see which azimuths gives you the most channels or gives you the highest signal strength on the channels you care most about.

You won't get everything by pointing in the 290 to 310 degree range of azimuths, but I think you will get all the majors plus KWGN and KTVD. KBDI is probably a stretch and I don't think you will see KRMA until they get up on a tower on Mt, Morrison (few people currently receive KRMA-DT and that is a major issue in this thread). Some of the others are just too far off azimuth (in a different direction) to be received by a fixed azimuth antenna. But, since they aren't the local major channels, you probably won't miss much.

KUSA-DT has been on the verge of breaking up at my location for about a month now. Occasional blocking and frequent sound glitches. I'm not going to do anything with my setup until after the switch on 2/17.

I'm contemplating taking my pre-amp out of the system after the switch since I think I may not need it. I'm thinking that the 10 - 14 Db gain from my antennas should get the stations I have a chance of getting and the 2.5 - 3 Db noise value from the pre-amp will be more of a detriment than the pre-amp helps since I have only about 35 feet of RG-6 coax from the antennas to the TV.

Right now, I have had to insert a variable attenuator into the antenna lead in order to receive KCNC-DT. Without the attenuator, KCNC-DT shows a very weak signal (25%), but with it, their signal is about 80%.

I to hope to remove or at least use a lesser pre-amp post transition. I considered an attenuator now to see if KCNC and KWGN might improve, but I think that will wipe out my "ragged edge" KRMA-DT signal.

I to hope to remove or at least use a lesser pre-amp post transition. I considered an attenuator now to see if KCNC and KWGN might improve, but I think that will wipe out my "ragged edge" KRMA-DT signal.

The only time I see KRMA-DT is when it is really cold and really still no matter what my configuration is, even direct from the pre-amp. I currently have one splitter that splits the signal to my Zenith STB and to other equipment.

Strangely, the variable attenuator is set to 0 Db and doesn't seem to affect KCNC-DT at any setting, however, it does affect all the other channels I receive when set higher. A splitter or two probably would accomplish the same effect.

Today with the wind we have up here, KMGH-DT and KUSA-DT are both exhibiting a lot of audio drops. My big Yagi antenna is up there waving at the tower. I lost about 30 sq ft of shingles overnight, but it's still too windy to get on the roof.

I am also having trouble with kusa since yesterday. Emailed their engineering an received a response:

To: Highberger, Ken
Subject: poor signal

Your OTA signal has dropped 30% recently (starting sometime yesterday) and is
now unwatchable.

I live in NIWOT (between boulder and longmont off Hwy 119) and have been able
to receive your signal without error since your move to LOM, until now.

It would be nice if there was a link on your web site to news about your
antenna status, indicating when you make changes, is it temporary, how long it
will last, etc.


Response:
Hello.
I am the Transmitter Engineer for KUSA and KTVD. I assume you are
speaking of KUSA-DT, Ch 9.1 and 9.2.

We are in the midst of some ongoing emergency antenna work. We needed
to switch KUSA-DT so that it is radiating out of only ½ of the Main Antenna.
This does drop our outgoing signal in half, and we too, here at the station are
noticing it.
This is only a temporary measure...hopefully only a few days as the
tower crews work on the portion of the antenna not being used. We will be
switching back and forth as necessary and hope to have the work done as soon as
possible. Currently with the high winds they cannot work on the tower.
Regulations limit the tower workers to 30 MPH gusts.

* Don Hayford
* RF/Wireless Systems Mgr.
* KUSA-TV/KUSA-DT
* KTVD-TV/KTVD-DT

Very interesting and informative information on KUSA-DT. Now if we just knew what the heck KCNC-DT has been and is doing, maybe we could understand the bizarre reception reports we have been logging for them.

I checked my signal strengths this afternoon. Channels 4, 7, 9, and 20 were all down about 20 points from their usual levels. The others were about the same. I think that if KUSA has to reduce power to work on antenna issues, the other LOM stations probably have to also.

Weather minus 9-2 is now being powered by Accuweather, so much for losing the subchannel.

Come on! Did anyone really think that was going to happen?

Anyone getting sound on KRMA digital this evening? They added 6-3 again this evening. Don't know if that will be permanent from now on or if it's just another test, but 4 out of 4 tuners don't have any sound for me. Just curious if anyone else was getting sound.

Anyone getting sound on KRMA digital this evening? They added 6-3 again this evening. Don't know if that will be permanent from now on or if it's just another test, but 4 out of 4 tuners don't have any sound for me. Just curious if anyone else was getting sound.Are you referring to 6-1? I'm NOT getting audio on it this evening.

Are you referring to 6-1? I'm NOT getting audio on it this evening.

I've got audio here this morning, but who watches KRMA anymore? ;)

...who watches KRMA anymore? ;)

Who can ever receive KRMA-DT anymore??? :rolleyes:

According to the TiVo program guide, they have moved the art program with Gary Spetz to KRMA-DT.

This does us NO good because we cannot receive KRMA-DT, here in northeast Longmont.

On Analog KRMA, we have been watching the art programs with Gary Spetz, David Dunlop and Jerry Yarnell as well as The News Hour with Jim Leherer and Washington Week.

These art programs seem to be disappearing from Analog KRMA. I do not know if they are reappearing on KRMA-DT.

I have seen no indication that The News Hour with Jim Leherer and Washington Week are also carried any where else: KRMA-DT or KBDI-DT.

Does any one know of a 'brick and mortar' 'chain' store in our area selling Zinwell ZAT-950A or ZAT-970A?

I just talked to someone in Viewer Services at KRMA.

They said they hope to 'go to full power' (6 x current power) some time Spring to Summer 2009. They will not go to full power until their antenna is mounted on the tower.

I guess that is a long KRMA blackout for many of us.

Anyone getting sound on KRMA digital this evening? They added 6-3 again this evening. Don't know if that will be permanent from now on or if it's just another test, but 4 out of 4 tuners don't have any sound for me. Just curious if anyone else was getting sound.

I've got sound on 24-3, 24-4. They're back to KRMA and v-me.

I just talked to someone in Viewer Services at KRMA.

They said they hope to 'go to full power' (6 x current power) some time Spring to Summer 2009. They will not go to full power until their antenna is mounted on the tower.

I guess that is a long KRMA blackout for many of us.

Just how do they plan to do that with sCare around?

Who can ever receive KRMA-DT anymore??? :rolleyes:

So far, only 2 out of ~25 people living north of I-70 listed their reception as "strong" on the KRMA map
http://www.rmpbs.org/map/

Go add your location and reception quality to the map if you haven't already.

Are you referring to 6-1? I'm NOT getting audio on it this evening.

Yes, I'm receiving 6-1, 6-2, and 6-3 but no audio on any of them. Just curious if anyone else was getting audio. I assume there is some problem with the PSIP that will eventually be corrected.

I have seen no indication that The News Hour with Jim Leherer and Washington Week are also carried any where else: KRMA-DT or KBDI-DT.

They have been simulcasting these two shows on KRMA analog and digital for the past few weeks. I assume that will continue until February. Not sure about the art programs that you mentioned since I don't watch those.

I've lost a few stations today. It's most likely due to the high winds moving my antenna. I'll get on the roof in a while and re-aim it.

So far, only 2 out of ~25 people living north of I-70 listed their reception as "strong" on the KRMA map
http://www.rmpbs.org/map/

Go add your location and reception quality to the map if you haven't already.

Tried twice, but it failed to take my information. I'm actually getting all three channels, with pretty good reception, but I selected "spotty" since my signal strength is only 4 - 5/10. I'll try again later, FWIW.

By the way, I know there are problems with KUSA, but last night was the first time I noticed major issues during the 10 pm news on Comcast (wrong thread, I know). Looked like a streaming web cam, with significant lag and stuttering, with some frozen images, too.

Tried twice, but it failed to take my information. I'm actually getting all three channels, with pretty good reception, but I selected "spotty" since my signal strength is only 4 - 5/10. I'll try again later, FWIW.

By the way, I know there are problems with KUSA, but last night was the first time I noticed major issues during the 10 pm news on Comcast (wrong thread, I know). Looked like a streaming web cam, with significant lag and stuttering, with some frozen images, too.

There is a verification button that appears after you enter and submit your data. I missed it the first time and you have to click it for your data to actually be logged. Very confusing input sequence.

If it's on the address verification page (the button says "correct"), I've hit it every time.

KCNC-DT went away for me sometime late 12/30 or early 12/31 and isn't back yet. :(

No other stations are showing any drop in signal level.

UPDATE: Talked to an engineer at KCNC, and he said they were doing "antenna work" and that they "made some changes" late on the 30th.

I asked when I might expect to be able to receive KCNC-DT again, and he said "it's looking like February." :(

Hopefully that won't be true.

KCNC-DT came back for me yesterday. Hopefully it will stay until the bowl games are over.

KCNC-DT came back for me yesterday. Hopefully it will stay until the bowl games are over.

Apparently they improved Longmont but totally destroyed Louisville, or at least my part of it.

Hopefully kenavs will post to say whether he can see it at all at his house.

This isn't the old interference issue unless the source of interference for me has just been stuck "on" for at least the past 36 hours…

KCNC-DT went away for me sometime late 12/30 or early 12/31 and isn't back yet. :(

No other stations are showing any drop in signal level.

UPDATE: Talked to an engineer at KCNC, and he said they were doing "antenna work" and that they "made some changes" late on the 30th.

I asked when I might expect to be able to receive KCNC-DT again, and he said "it's looking like February." :(

Hopefully that won't be true.

Apparently they improved Longmont but totally destroyed Louisville, or at least my part of it.
Hopefully kenavs will post to say whether he can see it at all at his house.

This isn't the old interference issue unless the source of interference for me has just been stuck "on" for at least the past 36 hours…

My experience is similar to yours. I did not take readings yesterday with the TR40, but my Philips TV could not recover 4-1, the couple of times I looked. When I checked on my TR40 at 9:30AM on 1-1-09, the signal strength was down to 60. (I believe that is about the lowest level the TR40 can handle.) It had been in the upper 90s before the 11-15-08 pattern change and when they used the AUX antenna. It had been in the 70s when they switched to the main antenna on 12-7-08 after the AUX failure.
When I checked at 12:30PM on 1-1-09, the TR40 could not detect KCNC-DT at all.

I can be pretty tollerent with almost any problem when I am assured that it is being worked on, but I do think KCNC should be providing status information on their website and/or the LCG website.

It's an RTN new year! I was just flipping channels and was surprised to see KQCK-DT (11.1) back on the air. I'm beginning to think that they start transmitting whenever they get a little cash and then just stay on the air until the cash runs out for the month. It would have been nice if they had been on the air for the Christmas "Leave It To Beaver" marathon, but better late than never I guess.

KRMA-DT seems to be playing around with their sub-channels. Today, 12/12/08, shorthly before 3PM one of my TVs added 6-3. It was labeled Create. I flipped around between 6, 6-1, and 6-3 for about 20 minutes. Sometimes all 3 were different. Sometimes 6-1 and 6-3 were the same. My wild guess is that they are about to switch to a simulcast of 6 on 6-1 and use 6-3 for Create and any othor prior 6-1 programming that was not a simulcast of 6.

I wonder if KRMA are moving towards SD only and 3 sub-channels? This would be unfortunate in my opinion.

Although KRMA never broadcast at high-definition full time, I miss the evening 1080i broadcasts.

I'm contemplating taking my pre-amp out of the system after the switch since I think I may not need it. I'm thinking that the 10 - 14 Db gain from my antennas should get the stations I have a chance of getting and the 2.5 - 3 Db noise value from the pre-amp will be more of a detriment than the pre-amp helps since I have only about 35 feet of RG-6 coax from the antennas to the TV.

Right now, I have had to insert a variable attenuator into the antenna lead in order to receive KCNC-DT. Without the attenuator, KCNC-DT shows a very weak signal (25%), but with it, their signal is about 80%.

Jamjar, this makes me think you've got overload. I have a CM-7775, tried a Winegard 8275 which was worse, and am going to try a Winegard HDP-269 due to the feedback I got on this thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=15342471#post15342471

I'm between SE of Horsetooth and College.

Rob T

KCNC-DT went away for me sometime late 12/30 or early 12/31 and isn't back yet. :(

Ditto here in the Fort - it's just readable on my Dish box, but too weak for my Directivo. Now, I sometimes have an alternative with KGWN Cheyenne. That went away for a good couple of weeks as far as my Directivo knew and down for everything for the last couple of days, but it's back now - I can see Letterman tonight.

To verify another issue, KRMA is weak with dropouts recently.

Rob T

I can be pretty tollerent with almost any problem when I am assured that it is being worked on, but I do think KCNC should be providing status information on their website and/or the LCG website.

I agree; you'd think their engineering department would be sick of the phone calls by now.

FWIW, KCNC-DT was, for a brief moment, coming in very, very poorly at a block-filled frame rate of about one frame per every six to seven seconds right now but I've never seen their signal strength read lower - my TiVo is reporting 21 on its 100-point scale.

Strangely enough when they were coming in in blocky-vision, rather than CBS Up-To-The-Minute, the program running on KCNC, it was part of an episode of CSI.

That makes me hopeful that KCNC is at least doing some testing at present.

Jamjar, this makes me think you've got overload. I have a CM-7775, tried a Winegard 8275 which was worse, and am going to try a Winegard HDP-269 due to the feedback I got on this thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=15342471#post15342471

I'm between SE of Horsetooth and College.

Rob T

Rob,
I agree on the overload assumption.
However, I've got it working OK for now and will work on getting my system working better after the changeover. I will probably replace my 30 year old VHF antenna with a Winegard YA1713 after the low band stations go away.

Keep us posted on your progress with the Winegard HDP-269. I have also been looking at that pre-amp. I plan on removing the pre-amp entirely to evaluate my next move.

I ordered my HD7694 antenna a few days ago, and in preparation I ran my cables to the attic. Since that's done now, I went ahead and put two of my internal antennas up there to see if it would help until my real antenna gets here.

Almost all of the analog stations are crystal clear, but I still get zero digital channels. I'm looking forward to the signal gain of a real antenna. :)

-Laura

I wonder if KRMA are moving towards SD only and 3 sub-channels? This would be unfortunate in my opinion.

Although KRMA never broadcast at high-definition full time, I miss the evening 1080i broadcasts.

At the DTV meeting they had in Fort Collins a couple of months ago, they said they plan to eventually have the HD main channel plus two sub-channels (V-me and Create). They believe this will be possible using newer encoders. They also said there would be a period of time the main channel would be SD-only, as it is right now. I had the impression that they would have HD back by February, if not sooner, but that could have changed, of course.

Mark

The taller "hump" on Mt Morrison that is south of the ice bridge antenna blocks me from getting any signal since I am south of Mt Morrison.
Have we heard if the transmitting antenna is going to be raised up 50 or 100'? Or is it likely that it will stay on the ice bridge?

The taller "hump" on Mt Morrison that is south of the ice bridge antenna blocks me from getting any signal since I am south of Mt Morrison.
Have we heard if the transmitting antenna is going to be raised up 50 or 100'? Or is it likely that it will stay on the ice bridge?
I didn't realize there was a south of the Ice Bridge issue too.

I don't think KRMA has provided any official information what they WILL actually do. Different KRMA people have hinted at what they MIGHT do.

On 4/1/2008, the group KRMA is part of got Jeffco authorization to build a new tower on Mt Morrison, but I have not heard of any other developments on that possibility.

The thing I keep wondering about is whether the KRMA-DT transmitter is compatible with the current KTVD (Analog 20) antenna and possibly the cabling from that antenna to the transmitter building. Since the current KRMA-DT antenna sits on the Ice Bridge that services the tower that the KTVD analog antenna is mounted at the top of, I presume that the 2 transmitters are in the same building and fairly close to each other. I also assume that KTVD has no use for the antenna after Feb 17, 2009. I would think they could get favorable PR and possibly a Write-off by donating it to RMPBS. Since the antenna is currently used at rather high power at UHF 20, I wonder if it would work for KRMA-DT on UHF 18.
If the KRMA transmitter could drive the existing KTVD antenna, especially if it could use the KTVD cabling, I would think the effort and cost to switch over would be modest, and provide dramatically improved coverage.

Rob,
I agree on the overload assumption.
However, I've got it working OK for now and will work on getting my system working better after the changeover. I will probably replace my 30 year old VHF antenna with a Winegard YA1713 after the low band stations go away.

Keep us posted on your progress with the Winegard HDP-269. I have also been looking at that pre-amp. I plan on removing the pre-amp entirely to evaluate my next move.

Hi jamjar,

Do you know what the range on the YA1713 is? The only place I found that gave a range is Summit Source and they say 15-25 miles range. If you get that antenna you will probably still need your preamp. On Goggle Earth Lookout Mountain is about 62 miles from LaPorte.

http://www.summitsource.com/winegard-ya1713-yagi-tv-antenna-reception-aerial-prostar-1000-10-element-offair-vhf-broadband-ch-713-high-definition-signal-outdoor-local-channel-blue-zone-part-ya1713-with-coax-cable-p-4589.html

BTW, KCNC-DT returned for me at its previous main antenna signal level (approximately 70% on my S3 TiVo, or stronger than KRMA-DT but weaker than KUSA-DT) around 2:00 or 3:00 in the afternoon on 1/2.

Almost all of the analog stations are crystal clear, but I still get zero digital channels. I'm looking forward to the signal gain of a real antenna. :)


If you can't get KWGN-DT (2-1), KTVD-DT (20-1) or KDVR-DT (31-1) you may be in trouble even with your "real" antenna as they should just about be receivable with a coat hanger. :-)

Here's a picture of Mt Morrison:

http://z.about.com/d/geology/1/0/_/F/1/redrocks3.jpg

If that horizontal structure at the base of the big tower is the ice bridge, it's obvious why an antenna located there will exhibit shadows.

--- CHAS

Hi jamjar,

Do you know what the range on the YA1713 is? The only place I found that gave a range is Summit Source and they say 15-25 miles range. If you get that antenna you will probably still need your preamp. On Goggle Earth Lookout Mountain is about 62 miles from LaPorte.

Hi Tim,
The Winegard site just shows it as a "Medium" Directional.
The Db gain specs for the YA1713 show 9.1Db for ch 7 and 10.3Db for ch 13.
The Db gain specs for the HD7698P show 10.4Db for ch 7 and 12Db for ch 13.
The HD7698P is the strongest VHF/UHF antenna in Winegard's line at the present time and seems to be recommended for deep fringe reception.

I am currently receiving VHF on the largest Winegard VHF antenna available in the late 70s and I have no idea what the gain specs are, but it looks like it has 18 elements. The built in balun has sustained several direct hits from large hail and is patched with Coax-Seal.

Based on the TV Fool information that I have attached, the YA1713 should have enough gain to overcome the Noise Margin figures show by TV Fool and get good reception from 7 and 9.

I have never received KDBI and will be totally surprised if I receive them after Feb 17. There are two large peaks in my LOS to Squaw Mountain.

I am in agreement that I may need a lower value pre-amp like the Winegard HDP269 to overcome downstream losses, but my intention is to try my setup with no pre-amp and then work from there.

I currently have a Winegard AP-8275 pre-amp installed that is likely contributing to the strange reception and the need for an attenuator to receive KCNC-DT.

My location is somewhat difficult for TV reception. There is a ridge 13 miles south that juts up over 400 feet into LOS to LOM, so I'm receiving deflected signals (less than 0.5 degrees deflection). I've attached a profile from LOM that I overlaid LOS and deflection.

I ordered my HD7694 antenna a few days ago, and in preparation I ran my cables to the attic. Since that's done now, I went ahead and put two of my internal antennas up there to see if it would help until my real antenna gets here.

Almost all of the analog stations are crystal clear, but I still get zero digital channels. I'm looking forward to the signal gain of a real antenna. :)

-Laura

Laura,

All of the DTV broadcasts in the metro area are currently on UHF. What kind/size of UHF antenna are you currently using to get zero DTV channels? You say you get almost all of the analog stations crystal clear; does that include Fox 31 and My20?

The taller "hump" on Mt Morrison that is south of the ice bridge antenna blocks me from getting any signal since I am south of Mt Morrison.
Have we heard if the transmitting antenna is going to be raised up 50 or 100'? Or is it likely that it will stay on the ice bridge?
I just talked to someone in Viewer Services at KRMA.

They said they hope to 'go to full power' (6 x current power) some time Spring to Summer 2009. They will not go to full power until their antenna is mounted on the tower.

I guess that is a long KRMA blackout for many of us.

The person, from Viewer Services, referred to the top of the tower.
My understanding is that they will continue to use the antenna on the 'Ice Bridge' at reduced power until the new antenna is mounted on the tower and ready for full power. (Spring - Summer)

For many of us there will be a KRMA blackout from Feb 17 ... ?

Hi Tim,
The Winegard site just shows it as a "Medium" Directional.
The Db gain specs for the YA1713 show 9.1Db for ch 7 and 10.3Db for ch 13.
The Db gain specs for the HD7698P show 10.4Db for ch 7 and 12Db for ch 13.
The HD7698P is the strongest VHF/UHF antenna in Winegard's line at the present time and seems to be recommended for deep fringe reception.

I am currently receiving VHF on the largest Winegard VHF antenna available in the late 70s and I have no idea what the gain specs are, but it looks like it has 18 elements. The built in balun has sustained several direct hits from large hail and is patched with Coax-Seal.

Hi John,

You are in a bad spot with LOS but hopefully when they go full power things will be better. The HD7698P is one BIG antenna, I not sure the gain on that antenna is worth the price. I think you can gain the same thing with a Channel Master 4228HD. And I'm not just saying this from what I read. I was in Owensville, MO last week install two 4228HDs and was getting St.Louis stations at 77 miles away with only an 18db line amp to two TVs. We had good signal and no noise or interference on one zenith box and one HDTV. I think some are full power and some are not, either way the 4228HD preformed great. We even experienced some tropo one night and pick up a DTV station out of Carbondale, IL :D over 130 miles away we had 75 percent signal. That was on the other antenna with a CM 7778 preamp, they live in a valley. Check out page 23 on this link for gain.

http://www.channelmasterintl.com/documentation/catalogs/Channel%20Master%20Terrestrial%20Catalog_20080822.pdf

Check out this link for the up dated info or the CM 4228HD

http://www.channelmasterintl.com/terr/EXTREMEtenna.html

The 4228HD will take care of the need to have two antennas, I am using a 4228 at my house. If I switch to the analog 7,9,12 they come in, so come Feb. 17 I have no doubt the DTV 7,9,12 will come in also.

4-1, KCNC-DT MAY have done something positive for Louisville.

On Thursday, 1-1-09, even my TR40 could not lock at all and reported 0.
On Friday signal level was back to just bad. The TR40 was reporting in the 70s, and my Philips TV could not lock.
On Saturday afternoon and evening, the Philps 42PF7320 TV, which has my oldest and least sensitive tuner could not recover 4-1. I did not check the TR40 on Saturday.

I went to check levels a few minutes ago(Sunday 1-4-2009@1AM), and the TR40 was reporting 95-98. That is what it was reporting when they used the AUX antenna. The Philips 42PF7320 TV was recovering 4-1 great, and the signal strength indication, which is just a bar scale which seems to have 4 levels was solid at the 4th level, which is the highest I think it can display. Saturday afternoon it was bouncing between the 1st and 2nd levels when it was reporting "Channel not Available".

Based on recent patterns, I presume they will switch back to a configuration that is terrible for Louisville in time for the football game at 11AM. The joke is on them. I don't really care about the Ravens or Dolphins.

4-1, KCNC-DT MAY have done something positive for Louisville.

Back to 99/100 on my S3 TiVo as well.

I'm not optimistic enough to believe they've fixed the main yet, so I'm assuming they're back to the aux, perhaps to allow the main to be worked on.

Hi John,

You are in a bad spot with LOS but hopefully when they go full power things will be better. The HD7698P is one BIG antenna, I not sure the gain on that antenna is worth the price. I think you can gain the same thing with a Channel Master 4228HD. And I'm not just saying this from what I read. I was in Owensville, MO last week install two 4228HDs and was getting St.Louis stations at 77 miles away with only an 18db line amp to two TVs. We had good signal and no noise or interference on one zenith box and one HDTV. I think some are full power and some are not, either way the 4228HD preformed great. We even experienced some tropo one night and pick up a DTV station out of Carbondale, IL :D over 130 miles away we had 75 percent signal. That was on the other antenna with a CM 7778 preamp, they live in a valley. Check out page 23 on this link for gain.

http://www.channelmasterintl.com/documentation/catalogs/Channel%20Master%20Terrestrial%20Catalog_20080822.pdf

Check out this link for the up dated info or the CM 4228HD

http://www.channelmasterintl.com/terr/EXTREMEtenna.html

The 4228HD will take care of the need to have two antennas, I am using a 4228 at my house. If I switch to the analog 7,9,12 they come in, so come Feb. 17 I have no doubt the DTV 7,9,12 will come in also.

Hi Tim,

Yes it is a bad spot, that I have been dealing with for 33 years. Neighbors 1/4 mile west get no reception and a neighbor 1/2 mile south has a 50 foot tower.

If I were replacing both antennas, I would seriously consider the 4228, but I have a Winegard HD9095P Yagi that is only a year old that is doing a fine job for UHF so all I really need is a VHF antenna for 7, 9 & maybe 12. I will probably use my old VHF antenna for a while and do some tuning from the pre-amp perspective.

4-1, KCNC-DT MAY have done something positive for Louisville.

It's good here in Fort Collins - 74% on my Dish 942, 8 points stronger than KMGH.

How about KUSA this morning? I can't see it at all, and it's usually more reliable than KMGH.

Rob T

It's good here in Fort Collins - 74% on my Dish 942, 8 points stronger than KMGH.

How about KUSA this morning? I can't see it at all, and it's usually more reliable than KMGH.

No 9-1 or 9-2 here in the foothills just north of Lyons today, either. I normally get it solid. Something changed since last night. All the other channels are fine, I'm even getting 6, which is normally hit or miss for me. So it's not my antennae setup or anything on my end.

Laura,

All of the DTV broadcasts in the metro area are currently on UHF. What kind/size of UHF antenna are you currently using to get zero DTV channels? You say you get almost all of the analog stations crystal clear; does that include Fox 31 and My20?

Fox 31 has just a little static, but My20 is crystal clear. I even get Tres (MTV-ish) with perfect audio and bearable video static.

My antennas are just two of the standard rabbit-ear type antennas (I ordered the Winegard HD7694, but it hasn't arrived yet). The UHF loop is maybe 8 inches across, and the other one has a UHF rectangle that's about 4x10 inches.

When I first set everything up downstairs right next to my TV, I was able to get 4.1, 6.1, 6.2, and 12.1. After that first day I was only able to get 6.1 and 6.2 consistently, and they went away a couple of days before I put my small antennas in the attic. So now I get no DTV channels.

Laura,
What kind of reciever are you using? I was wondering if it shows any signal at all on any of the digital stations. Considering that you should get your new antenna pretty soon, maybe it is not worth it, but if you get ANY signal and could have somebody rotate one of the current antennas while it is in your attic, it "might" help.

I am curious, are you closer to Wadsworth or Sheridan? I am within about three blocks of 285 and Sheridan (north). I ran my numbers and get LOS for all of the LM stations. I can get all of them on a little indoor Silver Sensor antenna and using a Zenith DTT901 converter box. Unfortunately, I can't get KBDI, which shows single edge reception at similar levels that your numbers show for the LM stations. I hope that when you get the new antenna it will do the job for you.

I will be interested to hear what your Winegard does for you. My main antenna came down in last weeks wind. I am considering replacing it with the one you are getting.

Phil


When I first set everything up downstairs right next to my TV, I was able to get 4.1, 6.1, 6.2, and 12.1. After that first day I was only able to get 6.1 and 6.2 consistently, and they went away a couple of days before I put my small antennas in the attic. So now I get no DTV channels.

I forgot to mention in my last post that the redesigned 4228 is made to ship in a smaller box which cost less to ship.:) The front bow tie grid collapses down to the back gid. My attic access is 28 1/2" x 21" and 35 1/2" on the diagonal and guss what it fits and you don't have to tear anything apart. I plan on doing a comparison test between the new and the old. so stay tuned.

No 9-1 or 9-2 here in the foothills just north of Lyons today, either. I normally get it solid. Something changed since last night. All the other channels are fine, I'm even getting 6, which is normally hit or miss for me. So it's not my antennae setup or anything on my end.

They may have been doing some tower work this morning. They went off the air for a minute or so around 6:30 AM, and when they came back their signal quality was too low to sustain a good picture without breaking up here in Fort Collins. They then went off the air again at around 11:25 AM and returned with good signal quality once again.

I forgot to mention in my last post that the redesigned 4228 is made to ship in a smaller box which cost less to ship.:) The front bow tie grid collapses down to the back gid. My attic access is 28 1/2" x 21" and 35 1/2" on the diagonal and guss what it fits and you don't have to tear anything apart. I plan on doing a comparison test between the new and the old. so stay tuned.

I am waiting for someone to do a good comparision between the two, where the only variable is the different antenna (i.e. same location, same equipment used for any measurements, etc.). So I look forward to your test results.

I'm considering adding another CM 4228 pointing north towards Cheyenne, as long as the new CM 4228 is at least as good as the old one. If it is better, especially in the high VHF range where it is claimed to be better, then I might switch it out with my current CM 4228 and use the old one for pointing towards Cheyenne. I'm not planning on combining the signal from the two antenna's, i.e. I am going to hook the second antenna to a separate input on a HDHomeRun.

Please keep us posted. I have one of the old versions of the CM4228 antennas. As I mentioned my old VU-210 came down and got pretty mangled. I was thinking about going with one of the Winegard Platinum VHF Hi/UHF units. Either the HD7694P (which is what I think Laura went with) or the HD7696P. This would be mounted about 15 feet above the peak of my two story roof on a rotor. I would be real interested to hear how the new version 4228 compares with the old, and any thoughts anyone might have on how I might expect it to do compared to the Winegards. I did not see any gain figures in any of the links you posted for the new 4228. There are lots of sites with very detailed info and actual test measurements on the old version. Your comparison will provide a good data point.

As a side note, the VU-210 laying on the roof (I got up there and at least tied it down) and pointing "sort of" towards LM, is getting 100% signal from all of the LM stations other than KCNC. It shows 85 to 89. This is using a D* H20-100. I lost KBDI completely though. I guess that I should not need much to get the majors after the transition, but I would like to try for some of the other digitals that are likely going to be marginal here in Bear Valley. I also play with DX from time to time, so I want to get the best replacement that I can without the wind resistance that the old RS dinosaur had.

Phil


I forgot to mention in my last post that the redesigned 4228 is made to ship in a smaller box which cost less to ship.:) The front bow tie grid collapses down to the back gid. My attic access is 28 1/2" x 21" and 35 1/2" on the diagonal and guss what it fits and you don't have to tear anything apart. I plan on doing a comparison test between the new and the old. so stay tuned.

Laura,
What kind of reciever are you using? I was wondering if it shows any signal at all on any of the digital stations. Considering that you should get your new antenna pretty soon, maybe it is not worth it, but if you get ANY signal and could have somebody rotate one of the current antennas while it is in your attic, it "might" help.

I am curious, are you closer to Wadsworth or Sheridan? I am within about three blocks of 285 and Sheridan (north). I ran my numbers and get LOS for all of the LM stations. I can get all of them on a little indoor Silver Sensor antenna and using a Zenith DTT901 converter box. Unfortunately, I can't get KBDI, which shows single edge reception at similar levels that your numbers show for the LM stations. I hope that when you get the new antenna it will do the job for you.

I will be interested to hear what your Winegard does for you. My main antenna came down in last weeks wind. I am considering replacing it with the one you are getting.

Phil

The receiver is the one built into my JVC LT-40X776 TV (2 years old). I can have it auto-tune available channels, and once they're tuned I can see the reception numbers. If it shows anything above zero it'll tune the station. I can press an un-tuned station number, but it says "No Program" and returns me to my original station if the signal is too weak.

I'm just north of 285 off Kipling. Basically right where the road crosses bear creek so I'm at almost the lowest part of the valley. It also puts me directly behind Green Mountain.

Can you manually add a station and then monitor for signal. Even with the new antenna that would come in real handy. As it has been said over and over here on this list, this reception game can be a matter of inches in antnenna location or a few degrees in pointing the antenna (horizontally AND vertically). If all you have is auto tune, it can make it hard. You would have to play with the antenna position and pointing, then do a scan, then point and scan...etc. Once you get the channel and have something to monitor, then you can play with moving and pointing. If that TV will let you tune manually it would sure streamline the process.

From your TVFool data I thought you were south and west of me. I just did not figure it was that far. I wish you good luck. Just ask if I can be of any more help (or maybe more properly any help :).
Phil



The receiver is the one built into my JVC LT-40X776 TV (2 years old). I can have it auto-tune available channels, and once they're tuned I can see the reception numbers. If it shows anything above zero it'll tune the station. I can press an un-tuned station number, but it says "No Program" and returns me to my original station if the signal is too weak.

I'm just north of 285 off Kipling. Basically right where the road crosses bear creek so I'm at almost the lowest part of the valley. It also puts me directly behind Green Mountain.

I searched the manual for the TV before I made that last post, because I wanted to be sure that there was no way to manually tune the Digital tuner, and there's not. I can manually tune the Analog tuner, but that does me no good in this situation. I may need to get my neighbor to help me when it's time to adjust the antenna.

I'm just north of 285 off Kipling. Basically right where the road crosses bear creek so I'm at almost the lowest part of the valley. It also puts me directly behind Green Mountain.

Laura,

You should be able to pickup KRMA-DT and any other channels off Mt. Morrison with a simple dipole or rabbit ears antenna. I ran profiles to where Kipling (not Kipling Parkway) crosses Bear Creek and you are completely LOS to Mt Morrison. Either location is about the same.

The LOM channels are a whole different ball game. That location is directly in line with the highest point on Green Mountain. The big lump in the center of the profile labeled LakeCedar-KiplingBearCrk is Green Mountain.

KBDI-DT is also going to be problematic as Mt. Morrison is in direct line of sight to Squaw Mt.

The profiles are attached. Remember that the antennas on the Lake Cedar tower are about 700 feet above ground level and the profiles show ground level terrain.

Is there something under the roofing material or in your attic that is shielding your antennas from Mt. Morrison?

Check out page 23 on this link for gain.

http://www.channelmasterintl.com/documentation/catalogs/Channel%20Master%20Terrestrial%20Catalog_20080822.pdf

Check out this link for the up dated info or the CM 4228HD

http://www.channelmasterintl.com/terr/EXTREMEtenna.html

The 4228HD will take care of the need to have two antennas, I am using a 4228 at my house. If I switch to the analog 7,9,12 they come in, so come Feb. 17 I have no doubt the DTV 7,9,12 will come in also.

Page 23 in the CM catalog gives the 4228HD a 12db gain which is the highest of all CM antennas.

The receiver is the one built into my JVC LT-40X776 TV (2 years old). I can have it auto-tune available channels, and once they're tuned I can see the reception numbers. If it shows anything above zero it'll tune the station. I can press an un-tuned station number, but it says "No Program" and returns me to my original station if the signal is too weak.

I'm just north of 285 off Kipling. Basically right where the road crosses bear creek so I'm at almost the lowest part of the valley. It also puts me directly behind Green Mountain.


The other thing you should consider is that the tuner chip in your TV is 2 years old, which means it is probably 3rd or 4th generation. The chips in the new Zenith boxes our 5 generation and are more senitive then the older ones. I have a 6 month old HDTV with a digatal tuner and the tuner in my Zenith box is more senitive and can pick up channels that the TV can't. Especially when signals are weak. TV manufactures seam to not care how good there tuner chips are or if we have a program guide. I haven't seen a flat panel TV yet that has a program guide.:confused:

I haven't seen a flat panel TV yet that has a program guide.

My 32" Vizio has a program guide. It's per channel though rather than integrated, so it's a bit cumbersome to use, but it comes in handy from time to time. If an inexpensive brand like Vizio has this feature, I assumed that most of the major brands had it has well. Guess I was wrong!

My 32" Vizio has a program guide. It's per channel though rather than integrated, so it's a bit cumbersome to use, but it comes in handy from time to time. If an inexpensive brand like Vizio has this feature, I assumed that most of the major brands had it has well. Guess I was wrong!

I have a friend that has a 8 month old Vizio 32" with not guide, he got it at Circut city. Must depend on who there making the TVs for.

I was picking up 6.1 and 6.2 with plain rabbit ears up until a few days ago.

I fiddled around with the antennas this evening, and after an hour and about 20-30 trips up into the attic, I have 6.1, 6.2, and 6.3 at about 68% strength. I may be able to get higher if I had someone to help. The tuner hesitates where channel 4 should be, so I know it sees something there, just not enough to get a lock. There are a few more hesitations as it scans, but it only gets the three on 6.*.

I'm looking forward to getting my new antenna.

As far as the guide goes, mine has a guide button, but it only shows upcoming shows for the current channel. It has the option of upgrading the firmware, so maybe if it was a popular model there will be an upgrade at some point.

I assume it's confirmed that KRMA-DT is no longer sending out any HD content?

Every time I've flipped by in PBS evening hours they've been showing letterboxed content in 4:3 480i.

I assume it's confirmed that KRMA-DT is no longer sending out any HD content?

Confirmed (sigh). Seems goofy and unexpected to retreat from HD; I'd much rather see the cooking shows go away for awhile.

Rob T

Just got off the phone with Engineering at KCNC.

They're back on the main antenna as of early Sunday and have fixed the problem with the Louisville null.

He wasn't quite sure what the fix actually was, but in the course of investigating the null Friday they also found that one of their transmission lines to the main antenna had failed due to water intrusion; it could be that one of the panels wasn't being properly powered and that's what was causing the no signal issue and perhaps in some cases the null.

Regardless, he mentioned there's still a null in the Longmont area they're investigating but wanted me to specifically pass along that they are broadcasting at 40 kW ("full power") from the main antenna and that Louisville viewers shouldn't have further signal level issues.

Confirmed (sigh). Seems goofy and unexpected to retreat from HD; I'd much rather see the cooking shows go away for awhile.

Not entirely surprising; PBS raised the price significantly (I believe well into six figures annually) to pass along content from their national PBSHD service; PBS SD, Create and V-Me are (at least comparably) minimal-cost. services.

I searched the manual for the TV before I made that last post, because I wanted to be sure that there was no way to manually tune the Digital tuner, and there's not. I can manually tune the Analog tuner, but that does me no good in this situation. I may need to get my neighbor to help me when it's time to adjust the antenna.

Laura,
I downloaded a copy of the owners manual for your TV. On page 73 of this PDF copy there is a procedure for directly entering a digital channel. I attached some screen captures of the pages (if it works). I can't tell whether this can only be done if the channel is already there from an auto scan or not. Perhaps you can tune to a channel, then switch to the signal meter screen and go from there. If you can get someone to help with the aiming it would make things much easier. Two people and a couple of cell phones are the way to go if you can do it.

Phil

Page 23 in the CM catalog gives the 4228HD a 12db gain which is the highest of all CM antennas.

That is pretty vague though. It does not indicate what the reference is, isotropic or a true dipole for one. I am pretty sure that it can't be 12 db of gain ruler flat over the whole UHF band. I also note that they have N/A for the gain rating on VHF High band. The table is contradicting their claims for the 4228 being a dual band antenna. It is also pretty worthless for comparing it to other antennas that give specific gain numbers at several channels across the bands and provide their reference for the gain numbers.

Phil

Regardless, he mentioned there's still a null in the Longmont area they're investigating but wanted me to specifically pass along that they are broadcasting at 40 kW ("full power") from the main antenna and that Louisville viewers shouldn't have further signal level issues.My part of Longmont (near S. Sunset and Pike)has a very strong KCNC signal this AM.

kucharsk posted:
Regardless, he mentioned there's still a null in the Longmont area they're investigating but wanted me to specifically pass along that they are broadcasting at 40 kW ("full power") from the main antenna and that Louisville viewers shouldn't have further signal level issues.
Are you sure the engineer said 40 kW? Their STA is for 500 kW which, if I recollect, KCNC considered as "full power" until analog shutoff.

kucharsk posted:

Are you sure the engineer said 40 kW? Their STA is for 500 kW which, if I recollect, KCNC considered as "full power" until analog shutoff.

He probably means 40 kW TPO. Looking at their license for 500 kW, the TPO on that is 24 kW which becomes 500 kW ERP at the antenna.

- Trip

You are probably right, Trip. When I posted, I thought the 40 was a typo; that it should have been 400. But if you're correct, wouldn't 40 TPO give about 800-850 ERP?

Well, if the old temporary antenna had a lower gain than the final antenna, that could make the difference.

- Trip

Laura,
I downloaded a copy of the owners manual for your TV. On page 73 of this PDF copy there is a procedure for directly entering a digital channel. I attached some screen captures of the pages (if it works). I can't tell whether this can only be done if the channel is already there from an auto scan or not. Perhaps you can tune to a channel, then switch to the signal meter screen and go from there. If you can get someone to help with the aiming it would make things much easier. Two people and a couple of cell phones are the way to go if you can do it.

Phil

Yes, I have the manual, and I've read it cover to cover. That procedure is to get to a channel without having to flip through all of the channels in between. If you attempt to tune a channel that does not have a signal it gives the message "No Program" and returns to the original channel within a second or two. I've tried many times to see if an antenna adjustment has given me a specific channel (I'm usually trying 4.1). It doesn't stay on the "No Program" channel long enough to get to the signal meter, and I believe while it's attempting to tune the station it blocks input.

Hopefully my antenna will be here today or tomorrow.

Not entirely surprising; PBS raised the price significantly (I believe well into six figures annually) to pass along content from their national PBSHD service; PBS SD, Create and V-Me are (at least comparably) minimal-cost. services.

Well, nuts. Unless RMPBS reinstates HD programming after they change their transmission facility (whenever that might be), I might have to install an FTA satellite setup anyway, just to get HD.

When the RMPBS staff were up here for a talk at the Fort Collins main library late last year, the engineer seemed to think that some new encoders with better compression performance would allow them to broadcast HD plus two SD channels simultaneously. Well, we'll see.


Jim McCauley

KWGN-DT has apparently abandoned plans for programming 2.2 any time in the near future. The "Check Back Soon..." slide disappeared about the 31st. From Near Year's forward, 2.2 has had no signal level, so it's been removed from the data stream.

I was thinking about going with one of the Winegard Platinum VHF Hi/UHF units. Either the HD7694P (which is what I think Laura went with) or the HD7696P. This would be mounted about 15 feet above the peak of my two story roof on a rotor.

You have LOS to all local stations at about 8mi away. What do you need this setup for? You could probably tape a paper clip to the back of your TV and get everything. What is the rotor needed for?

As a side note, the VU-210 laying on the roof (I got up there and at least tied it down) and pointing "sort of" towards LM, is getting 100% signal from all of the LM stations

I think this confirms my paper clip theory.

I would like to try for some of the other digitals that are likely going to be marginal here in Bear Valley.

Which are those? There is nothing else in the entire area worth receiving (unless your into shopping or religion).

Even KGWN(5.1 CBS Cheyenne) channel 30, a 1 edge signal from 70 miles north, I can receive with a 6' wire pointed north in my study in the south side of my house.

I guess, if your like me, your doing this just for the fun of it. Can't argue with that.

Just got off the phone with Engineering at KCNC.

They're back on the main antenna as of early Sunday and have fixed the problem with the Louisville null.

He wasn't quite sure what the fix actually was, but in the course of investigating the null Friday they also found that one of their transmission lines to the main antenna had failed due to water intrusion; it could be that one of the panels wasn't being properly powered and that's what was causing the no signal issue and perhaps in some cases the null.

Regardless, he mentioned there's still a null in the Longmont area they're investigating but wanted me to specifically pass along that they are broadcasting at 40 kW ("full power") from the main antenna and that Louisville viewers shouldn't have further signal level issues.

I'm getting abysmal signal readings for KCNC today (low 70s), but I'm getting record readings for KUSA (up to 98). Whatever KCNC is doing, it isn't working for me unless it is a signal overload issue on my end. I'm still not going to pursue that possibility until after transition and all the horsing around by the various stations with power levels and antennas (i.e., there currently is no reliable baseline).

I assume it's confirmed that KRMA-DT is no longer sending out any HD content?

Every time I've flipped by in PBS evening hours they've been showing letterboxed content in 4:3 480i.

I just talked to someone at KRMA, and they hope to be able to resume HD programming in the evenings once some new equipment arrives and is installed. They're expecting the work to be done by mid-January, so in a couple of weeks the situation may be resolved.

** Fingers crossed ** :D

Yes, I have the manual, and I've read it cover to cover. That procedure is to get to a channel without having to flip through all of the channels in between. If you attempt to tune a channel that does not have a signal it gives the message "No Program" and returns to the original channel within a second or two. I've tried many times to see if an antenna adjustment has given me a specific channel (I'm usually trying 4.1). It doesn't stay on the "No Program" channel long enough to get to the signal meter, and I believe while it's attempting to tune the station it blocks input.

Hopefully my antenna will be here today or tomorrow.

Just thought I would see if I saw something in the manual that might help. One never knows from reading most of these manuals what they mean without playing with the device a bit. Hopefully with the new antenna you will be able to get enough of a sniff of the digital channels to work with the signal meter from there.
Phil

KWGN-DT has apparently abandoned plans for programming 2.2 any time in the near future. The "Check Back Soon..." slide disappeared about the 31st. From Near Year's forward, 2.2 has had no signal level, so it's been removed from the data stream.

Yay! The first good news of the new year!

Now if there was only some HD programming I cared about on 2-1 that would benefit from it. :D

You have LOS to all local stations at about 8mi away. What do you need this setup for? You could probably tape a paper clip to the back of your TV and get everything. What is the rotor needed for?
Which are those? There is nothing else in the entire area worth receiving (unless your into shopping or religion).
Even KGWN(5.1 CBS Cheyenne) channel 30, a 1 edge signal from 70 miles north, I can receive with a 6' wire pointed north in my study in the south side of my house.
I guess, if your like me, your doing this just for the fun of it. Can't argue with that.

I am doing it for fun! You might note my statement about DX. I can't get Cheyenne, or others up North from here now (pre antenna mangling). I can't get stuff from the Springs either. I would like to play with it. Some I want to snag would be:
KCEC, KWHD, K57BT, solid KBDI, KSBS-LP, KDEN, KPXC-DT, KO5MD, KKTV-DT, KOAA-DT, KRDO-DT, and maybe KFCT-DT. The last few are unlikely, but something to play with. Years ago when living in New Orleans I had 43 states logged.... Sure it was Tropo ducting and sporadic E skip stuff ;) BUT... it was a lot of fun!

The reason that I had the VU-210 35 feet above the peak of my two story roof and (around 55 to 60 feet AGL) using various amps, RG11, and any other optomization I could think of, was because I was chasing the (then) holy grail of KMGH-DT from their coat hanger down on Speer.

The bonus is that I got the locals rock solid and immune to rain/snow/wind/leaf/seasonal, fade, breakup, etc.

The new installation will be comparitively modest, but I want to do it right!

It is something to do...

BTW, the numbers I get from TVFool are closer to 11 miles LOS to the LCG towers from here using an exact address! KBDI is close to 24 miles and single edge (but those mountains cast strange RF shadows).


Phil

Regardless, he mentioned there's still a null in the Longmont area they're investigating but wanted me to specifically pass along that they are broadcasting at 40 kW ("full power") from the main antenna and that Louisville viewers shouldn't have further signal level issues.

85% for me in Longmont(near FAA). Just about the strongest I've got them except when they were messing around with the backup a few weeks ago.

Yay! The first good news of the new year!

Now if there was only some HD programming I cared about on 2-1 that would benefit from it. :D

Smallville is pretty good.

KCNC's engineer might claim they are at "full" power, but I doubt it. I just checked my signal readings from LOM. They are at an all time low - KCNC@69, KMGH@74, KUSA@74, and KTVD@67. They're all solid locks, so I guess it doesn't matter. But I agree with others. No use fooling around with antennas, etc. right now. We need to wait until all the digitals go full power and all of their equipment is working properly, which may even be a few days after 2-17-09.

KCNC is now my strongest. Maybe with the power to the northern panel fixed, there was a reduction to the other panels.

Now if there was only some HD programming I cared about on 2-1 that would benefit from it. :D

Supernatural is my favorite. But I'm guessing someone who timeshifts PIR may not go for that one. ;)

More news in the world of LCG.

KMGH-DT has a permit to operate at 27 kW on channel 7 after the transition. Yesterday, they applied to further increase that to 48 kW, on par with KUSA-DT's permit for 45 kW on channel 9.

- Trip

Just thought I would see if I saw something in the manual that might help. One never knows from reading most of these manuals what they mean without playing with the device a bit. Hopefully with the new antenna you will be able to get enough of a sniff of the digital channels to work with the signal meter from there.
Phil

Of course. I also thought I had found a way to overcome the limitation, but when I tried it it didn't work.

Well, nuts. Unless RMPBS reinstates HD programming after they change their transmission facility (whenever that might be), I might have to install an FTA satellite setup anyway, just to get HD.

I just finished reading a bunch of PBS documents regarding the delivery infrastructure.

The HD loop that used to exist, hasn't existed for quite a while. As of 12/21/08, there is now an HD east and HD west that basically follows the SD NPS (National Program Service?) schedule. It isn't as simple as I state here, but close enough.

In any event, PBS HD/SD is pretty much now being delivered like any other broadcast network.

But, that is changing. PBS is going to a NRT (Non Real Time) delivery for non-news type day-and-date programs. The current schedule is for NRT to go on line at the end of 2009.

So, if you were to put in a Ku dish to get the current PBS delivery, by early 2010 all that will be left to receive are the day-and-date news programs.

The following is a personal comment about the current PBS HD delivery system.

In a nutshell it is inferior to what ABC/CBS/NBC/CW does for HD delivery. The reason is that they are using QPSK DVB-S and pushing two HD streams down the pipe. That results in each stream running about 17.1 Mbps. That is a long way from the 2:1 ratio needed for decode-encode in the station's plant. I very seriously doubt that any PBS station is taking the MPEG-2 from the sat feed and directly sending it out their DTV transmitter. Pretty much everyone converts the sat feed to HD-SDI which then feeds the station's MPEG-2 HD encoder. Not good, as artifacts get introduced into the re-encoding process.

The light at the end of the tunnel is that when NRT is up and running, higher bitrate HD files can be sent to the stations and might even be 4:2:2 instead of 4:2:0 (there is nothing in the documentation to indicate one way or the other). That will provide for a much better source for the station's MPEG-2 encoder. Hell, they might even ship hi-bitrate MPEG-4 files, as the NRT system is not locked to any particular file format (the system must be file-agnostic).

It is going to be interesting how all of this pans out. At least for the remainder of the year, HD programming for PBS will be fed in real time via satellite

Side note. It looks like PBS analog shutdown has already happened in Grand Junction.

http://www.gjsentinel.com/news/content/gen/breaking-news/index.html?p=1559

KCNC's engineer might claim they are at "full" power, but I doubt it. I just checked my signal readings from LOM. They are at an all time low - KCNC@69, KMGH@74, KUSA@74, and KTVD@67.

Here in Louisville KCNC-DT couldn't get any stronger without fear of overloading my tuners - 99%, same as KWGN-DT, a touch stronger than KTVD-DT and KMGH-DT, which are both around 97%.

In a nutshell it is inferior to what ABC/CBS/NBC/CW does for HD delivery. The reason is that they are using QPSK DVB-S and pushing two HD streams down the pipe. That results in each stream running about 17.1 Mbps. That is a long way from the 2:1 ratio needed for decode-encode in the station's plant.

Frankly, I'm surprised.

PBS as you know has a long history of using the most expensive, complex, high-end solution available to any problem.

Especially if it's something that would prevent the pesky general public from decoding their signal.

Posted by kucharsk:
Here in Louisville KCNC-DT couldn't get any stronger without fear of overloading my tuners - 99%, same as KWGN-DT, a touch stronger than KTVD-DT and KMGH-DT, which are both around 97%.
I still have low signal strengths for the LOM stations. I was even losing a lock on KMGH and I can see LOM from my second story windows! Had several complete dropouts of signal on KUSA for Leno. Perhaps the engineers fixed the north null and created a south null. Would be interested in what others in the south metro are experiencing. Perhaps it's payback time from 2004 when the south metro had good reception and KMGH's coathanger couldn't make it north past the downtown buildings. :eek: I am getting a great signal on KQCK tonight - highest I've ever had, around 80. That's great until they run out of money for January and shut down again.:D

I still have low signal strengths for the LOM stations. I was even losing a lock on KMGH and I can see LOM from my second story windows! Had several complete dropouts of signal on KUSA for Leno. Perhaps the engineers fixed the north null and created a south null. Would be interested in what others in the south metro are experiencing. Perhaps it's payback time from 2004 when the south metro had good reception and KMGH's coathanger couldn't make it north past the downtown buildings. :eek: I am getting a great signal on KQCK tonight - highest I've ever had, around 80. That's great until they run out of money for January and shut down again.:D

I wonder if something is interfering with the LCG signals between them and you; I can't otherwise explain why you'd be having problems with the three main LCG stations given KMGH hasn't mucked with their antenna for ages. Regardless, it may not matter for KMGH and KUSA since both of them will be going back to VHF on 2/17.

Meanwhile, I've never even seen a hint of KQCK-DT on this side of town.

FYI, KRMA has applied to participate in the DTV "Nightlight" program (note that they are not on the FCC's initial list of eligible stations). If the application is approved, KRMA will be able to continue analog operations on channel 6 for 30 days post transition. They will only be able to transmit DTV transition information and emergency information during that time.

FYI, KRMA has applied to participate in the DTV "Nightlight" program (note that they are not on the FCC's initial list of eligible stations). If the application is approved, KRMA will be able to continue analog operations on channel 6 for 30 days post transition. They will only be able to transmit DTV transition information and emergency information during that time.

Note that KCNC (4) and KCEC (50) have already been marked as eligible:

http://www.fcc.gov/Daily_Releases/Daily_Business/2008/db1224/FCC-08-281A2.pdf

As a point of reference, my signal from the LOM stations has degraded pretty significantly (up north in Fort Collins). Across the board, for all stations. Signal strength readings in the low 70's, where I was getting 80's and 90's before leaving town for the holidays. Getting a lot of dropouts on KUSA, especially.

Something obviously changed with the antenna configuration. I'll have to try re-connecting my preamp that I removed from the system back in the beginning of December...

Note that KCNC (4) and KCEC (50) have already been marked as eligible:

http://www.fcc.gov/Daily_Releases/Daily_Business/2008/db1224/FCC-08-281A2.pdf

Stations that are marked as eligible still need to file a "Legal STA" to notify the FCC of their intention to participate. This is a notification only, i.e. the FCC doesn't have to approve it, and no engineering data regarding signal interference needs to be submitted. KCNC and KCEC have not yet made such a filing, but they have until February 10th to do so.

KRMA filed an "Engineering STA" which is what is required for stations wanting to participate that are not marked as eligible. Whether or not this is approved may partly depend on whether or not KCNC or KCEC decide to participate. It also looks like if the FCC does not approve the engineering STA by February 17th that KRMA can go ahead and provide nightlight service as long as there are no interference objections filed. Any claim of interference would require an immediate termination of nightlight service in this case.

Some good general news on the OTA HD front. I don't know when they changed, but I noticed over the past week or so that several daytime shows are now in HD (e.g., Regis & Kelly, Ellen, Dr. Phil). While I'm not a regular viewer of these shows, I'm delighted HD programming continues to expand on the OTA networks. This makes OTA a more attractive single option should my Dish bill get to the point of being untenable in these economic times.

Note that KCNC (4) and KCEC (50) have already been marked as eligible:

http://www.fcc.gov/Daily_Releases/Daily_Business/2008/db1224/FCC-08-281A2.pdf

In general, this doesn't seem like good news. If most of the majors keep their analog broadcasts up for an extra 30 days, couldn't that impact when all the majors achieve full power DTV? Not just those using their old channels, but with the total RF radiation off LOM.

Some good general news on the OTA HD front. I don't know when they changed, but I noticed over the past week or so that several daytime shows are now in HD (e.g., Regis & Kelly, Ellen, Dr. Phil). While I'm not a regular viewer of these shows, I'm delighted HD programming continues to expand on the OTA networks. This makes OTA a more attractive single option should my Dish bill get to the point of being untenable in these economic times.

Unfortunately, KRMA did not get the memo. :mad:

I'm using a Dish TR-40 converter and a Radio Shack hdtv/fm hd radio antenna (uhf & vhf). I'm near W. 67th Ave a little west of Quaker (Westwoods Ranch). According to tvfool, I'm 6.5 miles from the Lookout Mtn transmitter and should orient my antenna at 191 deg magnetic. While I pick up a few worship, Spanish, etc. channels that aren't even in that direction, I cannot get kcnc, kusa, kmgh, kdvr. I may be in the shadow of N. Table Mtn. Is this why I cannot pick up the local main stations? Will this change when they go to full power? Should an attic or roof antenna be necessary when I'm only 6.5 miles away?

I'm using a Dish TR-40 converter and a Radio Shack hdtv/fm hd radio antenna (uhf & vhf). I'm near W. 67th Ave a little west of Quaker (Westwoods Ranch). According to tvfool, I'm 6.5 miles from the Lookout Mtn transmitter and should orient my antenna at 191 deg magnetic. While I pick up a few worship, Spanish, etc. channels that aren't even in that direction, I cannot get kcnc, kusa, kmgh, kdvr. I may be in the shadow of N. Table Mtn. Is this why I cannot pick up the local main stations? Will this change when they go to full power? Should an attic or roof antenna be necessary when I'm only 6.5 miles away?
It looks like shadowing is the problem.
I believe that 4-1 KCNC and 20-1 KTVD are at, or near, full power, and may well be in their post-transition configurations.

I used the address for Primrose School (16650 W 72nd Ave, Arvada, CO) and it took a setting of 140ft above ground level to get line of sight for the post-transition KCNC and KTVD. Saw LOS for KMGH at 150ft KUSA at 170ft. I believe their post-transition VHF antennas will be a little lower on the tower than the UHF antenna listed for pre-transition.

If you click on any of the stations you are interested in on the TVFOOL table, it will display the Transmitter Profile Detail for the station, which shows the shadowing you ar fighting.

Based on my experience, the TR40 is quite sensitive. I would talk to neighbors and see if any of them has an antenna arrangement that works.

By the way, TVfool says you are LOS to KRMA, but at your angle, I think you are effected by the same problem up at the transmitter that effects Louisville. The KRMA antenna is so low, that it is blocked, at the source, for us. KTFD-DT 14-1 (Spanish language) transmits from the same location, but it is up on the tower on Mt Morrison, and it comes in great in Louisville.

Should an attic or roof antenna be necessary when I'm only 6.5 miles away?

Not under normal circumstances, but as kenavs kindly demonstrated, your situation isn't typical. Given those heights to line of sight, the only proven way to obtain reliable reception in a place like that is to:

* Get a big antenna designed for channels 7-69.
* Install it on a mast or tower as high up as you can.

Signals in the shadows of mountains are quite weak, so even an attic-mounted antenna, while an improvement over what you're using now, isn't a fool-proof solution. Sorry.

I'm near W. 67th Ave a little west of Quaker (Westwoods Ranch). According to tvfool, I'm 6.5 miles from the Lookout Mtn transmitter and should orient my antenna at 191 deg magnetic.

Kenaves and Don_M have covered your problem quite well when it comes to antenna recommendations.

I picked a spot 1/4 mile west of 6700 N Quaker and did a profile in Delorme Topo. Then I added the approximate broadcast antenna height on LOM and drew a Line-of-Sight over North Table Mountain that will give you an idea how much the mountain intrudes into your LOS. As we move farther west, NTM does drop some, but probably not enough to get close to LOS.

Keep us posted regarding your reception.

Posted by kucharsk:

I still have low signal strengths for the LOM stations. I was even losing a lock on KMGH and I can see LOM from my second story windows! Had several complete dropouts of signal on KUSA for Leno. Perhaps the engineers fixed the north null and created a south null. Would be interested in what others in the south metro are experiencing. Perhaps it's payback time from 2004 when the south metro had good reception and KMGH's coathanger couldn't make it north past the downtown buildings. :eek: I am getting a great signal on KQCK tonight - highest I've ever had, around 80. That's great until they run out of money for January and shut down again.:D

I'm further south than you and have lost KCNC-DT entirely. the rest of the LM stations are down significantly to around 45-55 on My D* STB's. I have a roof mounted CM3021 that had been working great. I hope The situation improves when everything is fixed and finalized.

Posted by Iwanthd:
I'm further south than you and have lost KCNC-DT entirely. the rest of the LM stations are down significantly to around 45-55 on My D* STB's. I have a roof mounted CM3021 that had been working great. I hope The situation improves when everything is fixed and finalized.
At least you verified that I don't have an equipment problem. Thanks for the post. I think there must be some work being done, not constantly, but off and on, at LOM and the ERP is being reduced accordingly. Tonight, my KMGH and KUSA signals are back in the mid-70's on my E* receivers but KCNC and KTVD are in the low 60's. If KCNC is that low for me, I can see how you lost it 10-15 miles farther south of me. Except for KTVD, at least I have E* as a backup.

Edit: KQCK is still really strong.:D :D :D

I lost KCNC-DT during NCIS this evening. Had to switch to my Dish HD locals (thankfully I have them as an alternative).

Edit: KQCK is still really strong.:D :D :DI'm shocked that KQCK is back on the air.

I appreciate your thoughtful responses about my location in the shadow of N Table Mtn. I was hoping to be able to use the converter on an older tv for OTA in a room with no cable outlet. I have a Series 3 Tivo for the hdtv we'll buy soon and add digital cable to our USCable extended basic account. Thanks for the input.

KQCK is still really strong.:D :D :D

Yeah, it just stinks that they've lost most of their regular programming. :(

I'm shocked that KQCK is back on the air.

Me too! Sounds like RTN is in shambles at the moment though. Too bad! It has been a nice alternative network to watch. I hope they get back on their feet! I found the following discussion interesting:

http://boards.radio-info.com/smf/index.php/topic,117684.html

I'm shocked that KQCK is back on the air.

That didn't last very long!

Maybe the wind blew them off the ridge.
Edit: the towers are still up there.

Thoughts about line-of-sight (L-O-S) to the digital tower....

I am in a hobby group (WTFDA.org), which is an international group of almost 300 members. The majority are involved in long distance FM and TV reception as a hobby. A good majority of the members are engineers or a related field in radio and TV. After reading here on the Denver forum about concerns of whether a viewer has L-O-S to the digital tower, I queried that group via the group email list what their thoughts are regarding the importance of L-O-S. Here is a collection of their comments...

William Hepburn, government meteorologist, Toronto, Canada
"Radio/TV waves curve at 4/3 Earth curvature, so normally they go out farther than line of sight. I get the farther Buffalo DTV's solid 24/7 at 61 miles."

Roy Barstow, retired engineer, Teaticket, Massachusetts
"I receive all Boston DTV at 59 miles 24/7. I believe that what type of antenna one has and a rotor will be the factor as how far one will receive, also the height of the antenna."

Steve Rich, radio personality, Indianapolis, Indiana
"From my personal experience, it's all about location, location, location. LOS is definitely preferred, but not always necessary and obviously not always obtainable. My friend who lives in a very rural area of Illinois is able to receive the main St. Louis DTVs at 99-106 miles about 85-90% of the time via a small Radio Shack UHF yagi/reflector antenna @ less than 20 feet AGL! Meanwhile, your mountainous terrain may create some rather challenging issues."

Bob Cooper, retired tv & electronics engineer, Auckland, New Zealand
"LOS/Line of sight may be mis-understood - Doug correctly noted that virtually all coverage estimates are based upon 4/3rds earth coverage. If with a 1,000 foot tower the visual line of sight is 30 miles, the 'LOS coverage' from a suitable TV transmitting antenna will be 30 + 10 or 40 miles. Add to this the 'power factor' and the transmit antenna's 'sculptured radiation angle' and finally any directional characteristics the transmit antenna may exhibit (intentional or not). Back in the analog days, a 'modern' TV set required +40 dB signal - the reference here being the receiver's inbuilt noise level and any exterior sources of noise (interference) - BEFORE the image would be noise (snow) free. When you receive your February VUD, check the following photos: WGME which was around 10 dB SIGNAL to NOISE, WTNH which was slightly better - around 13 dB and finally WNEV which in the photo is around 22 dB. A quality set top digital box will lock images at a 22 dB signal to noise ratio
- the same number as WNEV will display in your VUD. In THEORY it takes less signal (to noise) for digital to display a blemish free image and while LOS might be an ingredient to successful reception, it is only a part of the equation (digital STBs are equally unhappy with too much signal - their capture ratio seldom exceeds 60 dB [that would be from +22 to +82] and numbers from +82 up would be VERY common within the first ten miles from any reasonable power DTV transmitter. And one final point - ALL TV coverage maps are predictions of "expected coverage" and then in the Grade B contour (the outer one) "at 50% of the locations 50% of the time"."

Doug Smith, television engineer, Nashville, Tennessee
"I'm not the one who commented about the 4/3 coverage estimates, the credit for that goes elsewhere.

But yes, analog coverage maps are generally drawn from the FCC F(50,50) coverage curves. (all of the contours - A, B, and "city grade") F(50,50) means the signal is at least that strong at at least half of locations at least half of the time. That of course also means it will be *weaker* than that half the time at the better locations, and all the time at half the locations. By the way, if you see a coverage map for FM, it uses the same F(50,50) curves as low-band analog TV.

DTV coverage maps are generally drawn from F(50,90) curves which mean the signal is at least that strong at least 90% of the time. (and in any case, the propagation curves are not used by the FCC for DTV)."

The above is fodder for thought regarding if LOS is still a concern for your zip code or perhaps you need to be making some equipment changes, such as a better antenna or better antenna location, possibly an antenna amplifier, or perhaps a television or stb with a more sensitive tv tuner.

I got my antenna, and it's difficult to get it aimed correctly. It still amazes me that if it's off even slightly the signal strength goes to zero. :(

So here's what I have and what TV Fool says I should have with my signal strength on the far right. I've aimed my antenna close to 297 degrees, and I have it angled up a few degrees. The fact that I'm only receiving one of the stations from that azimuth is frustrating... not only that, but I'm not even receiving the strongest one from there (I should receive MyNetwork, but I don't). The thing that's weird is that KCNC has a higher effective ERP at my location with a lower NM(dB). Everything I've read says that NM(dB) is the important thing.

On the analog side of the channels listed below, KRMA (6) is my worst of the ones listed yet it comes in digital when the others don't. Not only that, but I receive stations down to -12NM(dB), and that's one that's broadcasting from Cheyenne Mountain.

Callsign|Net|Station|NM(dB)|Path|Mag Az|Strength/100
KTFD-DT|Telemundo|14.1|65.3|LOS|268|30
KRMT-DT|Independant|41.1|54.9|LOS|223|0
KRMA-DT|PBS|6.1(.2, .3)|38.9|1Edge|38|71
KTVD-DT|MyNetwork|20.1|35.7|1Edge|297|0
KCNC-TV|CBS|4.1|32.0|1Edge|297|44
KDVR|Fox|31.1|30.2|2Edge|295|0
KUSA-DT|NBC|9.1|21.7|1Edge|297|0
KWGN-DT|CW|2.1|18.7|2Edge|297|0
KMGH-TV|ABC|7.1|16.9|1Edge|297|0

So the FCC created their new "fill-in" translator service. Guess which station is the first to apply to use it?

If you didn't guess KRMA, you weren't the only one, but they've asked for a 10 kW signal on channel 47 in Fort Collins. They filed an application as well as an STA to start operating it ASAP.

So maybe KRMA will be getting their act together up in the northern part of the market.

Application: http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/prefill_and_display.pl?Application_id=1287498&Service=LD&Form_id=346&Facility_id=14040

STA: http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/prefill_and_display.pl?Application_id=1287505&Service=LD&Form_id=911&Facility_id=14040

- Trip

So the FCC created their new "fill-in" translator service. Guess which station is the first to apply to use it?

If you didn't guess KRMA, you weren't the only one, but they've asked for a 10 kW signal on channel 47 in Fort Collins. They filed an application as well as an STA to start operating it ASAP.

So maybe KRMA will be getting their act together up in the northern part of the market.

Application: http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/prefill_and_display.pl?Application_id=1287498&Service=LD&Form_id=346&Facility_id=14040

STA: http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/prefill_and_display.pl?Application_id=1287505&Service=LD&Form_id=911&Facility_id=14040

- Trip

Maybe I just don't understand the situation, but I would think it would make more sense to try an antenna ON A TOWER on Mt Morrison or Lookout Mountain before they start building fill-in translators all over the place. I get the impression that KTFD-DT has pretty good coverage.

I got my antenna, and it's difficult to get it aimed correctly. It still amazes me that if it's off even slightly the signal strength goes to zero. :(

So here's what I have and what TV Fool says I should have with my signal strength on the far right. I've aimed my antenna close to 297 degrees, and I have it angled up a few degrees. The fact that I'm only receiving one of the stations from that azimuth is frustrating... not only that, but I'm not even receiving the strongest one from there (I should receive MyNetwork, but I don't). The thing that's weird is that KCNC has a higher effective ERP at my location with a lower NM(dB). Everything I've read says that NM(dB) is the important thing.

On the analog side of the channels listed below, KRMA (6) is my worst of the ones listed yet it comes in digital when the others don't. Not only that, but I receive stations down to -12NM(dB), and that's one that's broadcasting from Cheyenne Mountain.

Callsign|Net|Station|NM(dB)|Path|Mag Az|Strength/100
KTFD-DT|Telemundo|14.1|65.3|LOS|268|30
KRMT-DT|Independant|41.1|54.9|LOS|223|0
KRMA-DT|PBS|6.1(.2, .3)|38.9|1Edge|38|71
KTVD-DT|MyNetwork|20.1|35.7|1Edge|297|0
KCNC-TV|CBS|4.1|32.0|1Edge|297|44
KDVR|Fox|31.1|30.2|2Edge|295|0
KUSA-DT|NBC|9.1|21.7|1Edge|297|0
KWGN-DT|CW|2.1|18.7|2Edge|297|0
KMGH-TV|ABC|7.1|16.9|1Edge|297|0


Your table exposes a problem with the data TVFOOL has used for the current KRMA-DT location. The location reported is the old Republic Plaza site, where they were at quite a bit lower power to the antenna. KRMA-DT moved to the Mt Morrison location several months ago. It is on the ice bridge that services the tower that the KTFD-DT antenna is mounted on. The Mag Az and distance to KRMA-DT should be the same as the KTFD-DT values. Someone recently posted a photo that seems to indicate that the KRMA-DT antenna has a clear path to the east, so, since you are LOS to KTFD-DT, you are probably LOS to KRMA-DT. From your location, if you can get one of them, it would be reasonable that you would get both of them.

KRMA analog is on Lookout Mountain near the LCG digital stations and KDVR-DT and KWGN-DT that you are having trouble with.

Hopefully, that explains the KRMA mysteries.

I believe KCNC is supposed to be at the highest ERP of the LCG digital stations, but people seem to be seeing quite a bit of variation at different locations and various times. Since Sunday, most of my readings have had KCNC-DT somewhat stronger than KTVD-DT, but I am at a very different angle than you are.

I am not familiar with the Lakewood terrain, so I have no idea why you have those 1EDGE and 2EDGE situations. I would not think the issue is on Lookout Mountain, but I presume someone in the group would have a good idea about them.

The problem with my location (and the reason for all the 1 and 2Edge) is that I'm both behind Green Mountain and down at the bottom of Bear Valley.

I just wished that once I got one of the LOM stations, I'd get them all. I'm starting to get a little bummed about the digital only transition since I decided to completely drop cable, because I'm going to go from 12 stations (that I would keep tuned) down to basically 3 (2 of the 5 I get are spanish language), and only one of them is a regular station (KCNC). :(

Wait, you receive KCNC-DT and nothing else from Lookout?

That news may not be as bad as you think. Right now, KCNC-DT is the only station that's even close to operating at full power.

KCNC-DT is around 1000 kW. KTVD-DT is around 96 kW and KUSA-DT and KMGH-DT are around 30 kW (since they'll be returning to VHF next month, which should get them into your area better than KCNC).

KDVR-DT and KWGN-DT are both at higher power levels, but from side-mounted antennas they plan to move to the top of their respective towers after the transition.

You might still have a chance; I wouldn't be so quick to give up if you get KCNC-DT.

- Trip

Laura, Based on the specs for your antenna the pointing should not be as critical as what you are seeing. I would think that there should be at least 10 degrees of rotation where the signal is pretty steady in level. But, as has been mentioned in low signal reception this is often a game of inches.

Are you sure that all of your connections are good? This would be the connectors on either end of the cable that you are using and the balun that goes from the antenna to the cable at the antenna. The fact that moving the antenna slightly can cause the signal to dissappear "might" mean that there is a flaky connection somewhere.

Have you tried putting the antenna at different places in the attic. There could be something blocking the signal and moving it around may find the sweet spot where it can "see" around the obstruction. Back in the KMGH coat hanger days, many people reported that just moving their antenna a few inches in one direction or another (and these were roof mounted antennas basically in the clear) would allow them to get a signal.

I wonder how they calculate those NM values. It is curious that they give KCNC so much of a higher value than the other LM LCG stations transmitting from the same tower at very similar heights and power levels. I would have thought that if you could get KCNC, you would get all of them (or at least *some* signal from all of them).

EDIT: Trip cleared up the reason that KCNC has higher NM numbers. Significantly higher power level as of today.

You may actully be better off after the transition. The VHF stations (KUSA, KMGH) will have slightly more power than they do now and VHF signals sometimes do better than UHF as far as penetrating barriers goes as well diffracting better over and around obstacles . Don't give up just yet!

Phil

I got my antenna, and it's difficult to get it aimed correctly. It still amazes me that if it's off even slightly the signal strength goes to zero. :(
On the analog side of the channels listed below, KRMA (6) is my worst of the ones listed yet it comes in digital when the others don't. Not only that, but I receive stations down to -12NM(dB), and that's one that's broadcasting from Cheyenne Mountain.

Callsign|Net|Station|NM(dB)|Path|Mag Az|Strength/100
KTFD-DT|Telemundo|14.1|65.3|LOS|268|30
KRMT-DT|Independant|41.1|54.9|LOS|223|0
KRMA-DT|PBS|6.1(.2, .3)|38.9|1Edge|38|71
KTVD-DT|MyNetwork|20.1|35.7|1Edge|297|0
KCNC-TV|CBS|4.1|32.0|1Edge|297|44
KDVR|Fox|31.1|30.2|2Edge|295|0
KUSA-DT|NBC|9.1|21.7|1Edge|297|0
KWGN-DT|CW|2.1|18.7|2Edge|297|0
KMGH-TV|ABC|7.1|16.9|1Edge|297|0

The problem with my location (and the reason for all the 1 and 2Edge) is that I'm both behind Green Mountain and down at the bottom of Bear Valley.

I just wished that once I got one of the LOM stations, I'd get them all. I'm starting to get a little bummed about the digital only transition since I decided to completely drop cable, because I'm going to go from 12 stations (that I would keep tuned) down to basically 3 (2 of the 5 I get are spanish language), and only one of them is a regular station (KCNC). :(

Trip is right once they go full power everyonein Colorado will get better signal. The other thing to keep in mind is that the analogs are causing interference that is why the FCC will not let the stations go full power. Here is a nice news article from Montana, somewhere in the middle it states that after the analogs were turned off, they received DTV signal in areas that they could not get analog signal.

http://www.tvtechnology.com/article/69232

No one knows what to expect on Feb. 17, just hope for the best and be patient.

At least that's some good news. I wasn't planning on going back to cable or satellite... I would've just dealt with only one station and my DVD collection. Getting the major networks after the transition would be really nice. The fact that some of the broadcasters still need to move antennas gives me hope.

I moved my antenna from one end to the other, tried rotating it to lay on its side ( | vs - ), moved it out to the side of the attic. Once I got KCNC after about 8:00 last night I still had to cook dinner, and I didn't want to mess with it again and possibly lose reception again.

I'm pretty sure the cable connections are good, but I am curious about the little box that I clicked onto the antenna. It just seemed to have little U-shaped connectors that were supposed to fit over the wires and make contact. One of them was bent a little when I opened the package and I tried to straighten it. I thought it might be causing a problem, but after spending so much time moving the antenna with few results, I decided to take a break and wait for another day.

One bright note is that when I would have it auto-tune the stations, it would pause for a few seconds where some of the channels should be. If I count those pauses it should be able to tune maybe 9 stations (not counting subchannels) once the power increases and transmitter antennas move.

I wonder how they calculate those NM values. It is curious that they give KCNC so much of a higher value than the other LM LCG stations transmitting from the same tower at very similar heights and power levels. I would have thought that if you could get KCNC, you would get all of them (or at least *some* signal from all of them).

Phil

On the tvfool web sight at FAQ is where I found this. There is more I just cut and pasted a little.


NM(dB)
This is the predicted Noise Margin (NM) of each channel "in the air" at your location, specified in dB. You must add/subtract any gains/losses you get from your antenna, building penetration, amps, cables, splitters, and other factors present in your situation. Hypothetically speaking, you need to end up with an NM value above 0 in order to pick up a station.

Pwr(dBm)
This is the predicted signal power of each channel at your location, specified in dBm. Note that the relationship between NM and Pwr depends on the type of signal being detected. Analog stations require more power than an equivalent digital station to achieve the same level of NM.

Tim,

Thanks for that. I read that as well awhile back. It does not explain how the number is derived though. It would have to be some kind of ratio I would think, kind of like signal to noise ratio. I can see that they would use a predicted signal power level as one component, but what so they use for the predicted noise level at the antenna. In any case the results are a generalization that likely varies considerably based on the specific location of the antenna/receiver.

Again thanks for taking the time to get that info.

Phil


On the tvfool web sight at FAQ is where I found this. There is more I just cut and pasted a little.


NM(dB)
This is the predicted Noise Margin (NM) of each channel "in the air" at your location, specified in dB. You must add/subtract any gains/losses you get from your antenna, building penetration, amps, cables, splitters, and other factors present in your situation. Hypothetically speaking, you need to end up with an NM value above 0 in order to pick up a station.

Pwr(dBm)
This is the predicted signal power of each channel at your location, specified in dBm. Note that the relationship between NM and Pwr depends on the type of signal being detected. Analog stations require more power than an equivalent digital station to achieve the same level of NM.

Uh, Oh!

The Gov is thinking of delaying the Feb 17 analog cutoff date.

BroadcastingCable Article (http://www.broadcastingcable.com/CA6627445.html)

Tim,

Thanks for that. I read that as well awhile back. It does not explain how the number is derived though. It would have to be some kind of ratio I would think, kind of like signal to noise ratio. I can see that they would use a predicted signal power level as one component, but what so they use for the predicted noise level at the antenna. In any case the results are a generalization that likely varies considerably based on the specific location of the antenna/receiver.

Again thanks for taking the time to get that info.

Phil

Andy (who runs TVFool) explained it in a thread in the Technical forum one time. I don't remember the technical half of it, but he said the number assumes you're using a dipole, and is playable. So if your antenna has 15 dB of gain and you have 3 dB of line loss, you can assume to receive stations down to -12 dB NM. Something like that. You might look for the "Official TVFool Discussion" thread (something like that) in the HDTV Technical forum and see if the explanation you're looking for is in there.

Else, you could ask Andy directly in that thread and he might tell you.

- Trip

On the tvfool web sight at FAQ is where I found this. There is more I just cut and pasted a little.


NM(dB)
This is the predicted Noise Margin (NM) of each channel "in the air" at your location, specified in dB. You must add/subtract any gains/losses you get from your antenna, building penetration, amps, cables, splitters, and other factors present in your situation. Hypothetically speaking, you need to end up with an NM value above 0 in order to pick up a station.

Pwr(dBm)
This is the predicted signal power of each channel at your location, specified in dBm. Note that the relationship between NM and Pwr depends on the type of signal being detected. Analog stations require more power than an equivalent digital station to achieve the same level of NM.

And that was what I had read that made me so confused about why I could receive analog stations down to -12NM(dB) and I couldn't receive a digital station below 32NM(dB). They're using the same freq. range (VHF/UHF) so they should all penetrate my roof with the same signal loss.

Another oddity is that all of the analog stations from LOM are crystal clear and the digitals are 0. Then some of the ones coming from side angles are not quite as clear, and of course the farther the signal gets the lower the quality. The -12NM signal I have to admit was crystal clear audio and no picture.

I'm counting the days to the transition....

Trip,
Ok I think I got it now. The ratio is power level referenced to what they consider to be the minimum usable signal level using a reference dipole as an antenna. Of course the real minumum would change based on reciever charachteristics and the actual signal level based upon the specific antenna location. A handy tool to to give a general idea what to expect though.
I think I will find that thread and check it out.
THX,
Phil



Andy (who runs TVFool) explained it in a thread in the Technical forum one time. I don't remember the technical half of it, but he said the number assumes you're using a dipole, and is playable. So if your antenna has 15 dB of gain and you have 3 dB of line loss, you can assume to receive stations down to -12 dB NM. Something like that. You might look for the "Official TVFool Discussion" thread (something like that) in the HDTV Technical forum and see if the explanation you're looking for is in there.

Else, you could ask Andy directly in that thread and he might tell you.

- Trip

Re: Rocky Mountain PBS' Northern Colorado translator:

Maybe I just don't understand the situation, but I would think it would make more sense to try an antenna ON A TOWER on Mt Morrison or Lookout Mountain before they start building fill-in translators all over the place. I get the impression that KTFD-DT has pretty good coverage.

Although I have NO inside information, I suspect that RMPBS simply has not been able to close the deal with Gannett (or whoever it is who actually owns the KTFD-DT location). Putting a NorCO translator into operation may be part of their strategy to bargain down the price of the deal.

Although I'm delighted at the prospect of getting a clear signal from KRMA-DT, I'm not sure that this will solve the problem for viewers in places like Lafayette. It may complicate things by forcing some viewers to use an antenna rotator.


Jim McCauley

Uh, Oh!

The Gov is thinking of delaying the Feb 17 analog cutoff date.

BroadcastingCable Article (http://www.broadcastingcable.com/CA6627445.html)


Great. Government always must cater to the lowest common denominator, regardless of the consequences to people who paid attention and prepared themselves.

Uh, Oh!

The Gov is thinking of delaying the Feb 17 analog cutoff date.

BroadcastingCable Article (http://www.broadcastingcable.com/CA6627445.html)

I have written to my congressperson (the newly elected Betsy Markey) to make sure that she understands that this is a really, really BAD idea.


Jim McCauley

The last paragraph implies that the broadcasters may object to extending the deadline, because of all the money they've invested in the transition and advertising telling the public that the switch is coming on one specific date.

I hope the switch happens on the 17th, because I want all the digital channels, and (based on comments) as long as the analog is still at full power, I may not get them until the analog is gone.

1080i is awesome. :D I even watched an awards show last night (on KCNC 4.1), because it was the only HD broadcast I could receive.

Quote from http://www6.lexisnexis.com/publisher/EndUser?Action=UserDisplayFullDocument&orgId=2531&topicId=100015123&start=1&docId=l:908027257

Only TVs that rely on "rabbi ears" or rooftop antennas in order to receive their broadcasts will need to get a converter box after the current Feb. 17 deadline.

"Rabbi ears"? Does this mean that the analog cutoff is actually some sort of electronic bris?


Jim McCauley

Just announced on Fox Bus Ch - by Rob't Shirpiro (sp?) of CEA - Obama admin. will delay the transition 90 days!

Just announced on Fox Bus Ch - by Rob't Shirpiro (sp?) of CEA - Obama admin. will delay the transition 90 days!I really don't see what the new administration have to gain by changing the date at this late hour. If there are any problems with the transition, they can just blame Dubya; he'll be retired by then, and is pretty thick-skinned anyway.

I'm pretty sure the cable connections are good, but I am curious about the little box that I clicked onto the antenna. It just seemed to have little U-shaped connectors that were supposed to fit over the wires and make contact. One of them was bent a little when I opened the package and I tried to straighten it. I thought it might be causing a problem...

This is definitely worth looking into. If only one "U" is actually making contact inside the housing instead of both, that would cut deeply into antenna performance.

The... broadcasters may object to extending the deadline, because of all the money they've invested in the transition and advertising telling the public that the switch is coming on one specific date.

That, plus they've no doubt already budgeted for shutting down the analog transmitters next month. Advertising has dwindled badly in the last four months, so the broadcasters are reaallly interested in the prospect of lower energy bills now. You can bet next week's pay that the NAB would be yelling loudly for yet another bailout if such a thing were to happen.

Keep an eye on this thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=15499348#post15499348) for the latest.

Uh, Oh!

The Gov is thinking of delaying the Feb 17 analog cutoff date.

BroadcastingCable Article (http://www.broadcastingcable.com/CA6627445.html)

Thankfully there are not any other pressing issues on the national and international agenda so that Congress will have time to devote to this DTV issue. Must be boring to be in Washington these days.....
:rolleyes:

But wait... there's more!

Another story on the delay (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/01/08/digital-tv-transition-del_n_156346.html)

If the transition is delayed does that mean that certain of our local stations will NOT switch to VHF and will stay on UHF for a while longer?

I missed reading the forum for a while because of the holidays and all but I skimming thru them to catch up but still have a question about KMGH. I used to get them just fine. I lost 7-1 while they were working on their antenna problem before Christmas. Then a week or so ago I rescanned and was able to get a very low quality signal. My Samsung will display a pixelated frozen picture sometimes. I get all the others from LOM fine. I am east of Ft. Lupton. From my view they definitely have degraded their signal. If I read the other posts correctly it sounds like they will stay this way till Feb or when ever the cut-off happens?

thanks

I missed reading the forum for a while because of the holidays and all but I skimming thru them to catch up but still have a question about KMGH. I used to get them just fine. I lost 7-1 while they were working on their antenna problem before Christmas. Then a week or so ago I rescanned and was able to get a very low quality signal. My Samsung will display a pixelated frozen picture sometimes. I get all the others from LOM fine. I am east of Ft. Lupton. From my view they definitely have degraded their signal. If I read the other posts correctly it sounds like they will stay this way till Feb or when ever the cut-off happens?

thanks
I have not seen anyone post anything that clearly indicates exactly, in detail, what is going on with the LCG stations.
I would suggest you contact KMGH broadcast engineering and tell them about your situation, and ask them what their plans are.

Last minute medling by the Obama team could prevent a move to VHF 7 for KMGH digital on Feb 18 2009, so there may not be any change coming in the immediate future.

I believe that Feb 17 2009 is the last day currently allowed for full power analog service, so I tend to view the transition as occuring on Feb 18, 2009 unless the Obama team changes the existing law.

I really don't see what the new administration have to gain by changing the date at this late hour. If there are any problems with the transition, they can just blame Dubya; he'll be retired by then, and is pretty thick-skinned anyway.

Because the converter program is out of cash and people aren't willing to spend $40 to keep watching their old TVs and so are crying to their Congresscritters.

If the transition is delayed does that mean that certain of our local stations will NOT switch to VHF and will stay on UHF for a while longer?
Only the new congress and president can answer that one. A delay will require a change in the law. If they mandate that the analog stations stay on the air, then obviously KMGH and KUSA cannot move. I believe there is a current analog station on VHF 13 in the coverage area which would mean KBDI cannot move either. The new law would have to address what happens to their current digtal transmitters. Their may be stations that were scheduled to come on-line on Feb 18, 2009 using the frequencies that were supposed to be vacated by the digital stations that were scheduled to move. The new stations would have advertising contracts and other commitments in place. Will a law written in a few days handle all this in an orderly and fair manner?

The idea of a delay this close to the transition is really ridiculous. What makes anyone think that a significant portion of those who are not going to be ready on Feb 18 are going to be ready on any other date?

The idea of a delay this close to the transition is really ridiculous. What makes anyone think that a significant portion of those who are not going to be ready on Feb 18 are going to be ready on any other date?

As I mentioned above, all the clueless who have missed the news for the past years that this was going to happen are now going to the DTV site, seeing that the coupon program is out of cash, and are whining they "can't afford" a converter box.

They're then whining to their elected officials about it who then say "in today's economy, who can afford a converter box."

After all, a converter's about the same price as a couple cartons of smokes…

Because the converter program is out of cash and people aren't willing to spend $40 to keep watching their old TVs and so are crying to their Congresscritters.
Are there a lot of real people crying to Congress about this?

Or is it just Consumers Union, who always need something to whine about in order to justify their existence? I liked them a lot better when they just stuck to gathering facts, so I would know which washer to buy.

...
After all, a converter's about the same price as a couple cartons of smokes…
I suspect you don't smoke. I quit many years ago, but my wife still does, and a carton of her brand is over $40 at Sams Club.

Here's my idea:

Show an overlaid count down timer continuously on every analog broadcast for the last 10 days before Feb 17. You'd have to keep the overlay out of the cable and satellite plants though. Also Air PSAs saying if you see this timer, you need to do something NOW.

If you really want to reach the knuckleheads out there, show only the analog cut off PSAs for the last 10 days before Feb 17 on the analog broadcasts. That's all nothing else.

Everyone should already be on digital or prepared to switch 10 days out. If they're not, I think this is the only way to make sure the "most vulnerable" (that's PC-talk for ignorant stupid) will know about the transition and get off their duffs to do something about it.

-Glen

Whatya say we start a new contest to see when the digital swap will actually take place? I choose February 17th, 2010. BTW, wasn't this supposed to have taken place a long-long time ago in the first place?

Maybe if these "L.C.D." folks could forego the weekly stock of Ho-Hos and Twinkies or scratch-offs maybe they could have saved up the $40 by now, sheesh! :rolleyes:

Surely if they are watching their analog sets they would have seen the commercials about 1000 times by now. I don't even watch that much local stuff and I'm tired of those commercials.

Posted by kenavs:
Only the new congress and president can answer that one. A delay will require a change in the law. If they mandate that the analog stations stay on the air, then obviously KMGH and KUSA cannot move.
There is no mandate to keep analog stations on the air, now, or anytime before 2-17-09. The mandate is to shut analog off on 2-17-09. If Congress, in its infinite wisdom, decides to extend the analog shutoff to June?, there is no corresponding requirement that stations keep analog going until then. As I posted in another thread, the stations should inform Congress that the analog shutdown date can be extended, but the stations intend to shut off analog NLT 2-17-09 anyway.

Posted by kenavs:

There is no mandate to keep analog stations on the air, now, or anytime before 2-17-09. The mandate is to shut analog off on 2-17-09. If Congress, in its infinite wisdom, decides to extend the analog shutoff to June?, there is no corresponding requirement that stations keep analog going until then. As I posted in another thread, the stations should inform Congress that the analog shutdown date can be extended, but the stations intend to shut off analog NLT 2-17-09 anyway.
I realize that the current rules allow the stations to end analog transmission, but are you saying that the NEW law that has to be written to extend the analog time could not also mandate that the station broadcast until some date or forfeit their license, if congress and the Obama team decide that it has to be that way so that the people who have ignored years of warnings are not inconvenienced?

It would be pretty hard to mandate analog stay on the air. Wilmington, NC is already off, Hawaii goes off in about a week (Congress can't act that fast) and there is a smattering of other stations around the country that have already shut off analog. So, no, I don't think any new law would mandate analog stay on the air. Besides, do you know of a Congress person smart enought to figure that out?

My main point was that 2-17-09 isn't an analog stay-on-the-air mandate. It's a mandate to shut off. I didn't mean to offend you. I just think it's important to note that point.

It would be pretty hard to mandate analog stay on the air. Wilmington, NC is already off, Hawaii goes off in about a week (Congress can't act that fast) and there is a smattering of other stations around the country that have already shut off analog. So, no, I don't think any new law would mandate analog stay on the air. Besides, do you know of a Congress person smart enought to figure that out?

My main point was that 2-17-09 isn't an analog stay-on-the-air mandate. It's a mandate to shut off. I didn't mean to offend you. I just think it's important to note that point.

You say that you "don't think any new law would mandate" something. I am concerned about could mandate something. The point is that I feel that the proposal law is ridiculous, and I don't think I am alone. Since I am concerned that they may go ahead with a ridiculous idea, I find it hard to rule out anything in the law, no matter how stupid.
I would not give them credit for being smart enough to include a mandate, because they knew that otherwise stations might have the option to turn off their analog transmitters, but they might write it into the law by accident.

It is silly that they are even proposing something like this at this point in the game. The only thing that changed recently is the Coupon money ran out. If that is their problem, just make the money available. A billion dollars, or so, will just be lost in the round off of a trillion dollar plus deficit.

You would write a bill to repeal the present law nullifying attendant rules as stipulated by the FCC concerning DTV transition scheduling. Then you write a new DTV transition bill that sets a new date and freezes all TV broadcasting licenses and operations to authorizations in effect at the moment when President Obama signs the new bills into law.

--- CHAS

I don't want this to get into a contest. I agree, the only thing that's really changed recently is that the coupon money is gone. What Congress will do is anyone's guess. I just don't believe, and you're entitled to your beliefs, that they will change anything in the current statute other than the date - 2-17-09 to June - for example. They see the date as the "problem". They'll overlook changing how the mandate actually works.

Just an update in a low-wind evening.

My KCNC-TV is at 68 now (up from 44)
KTFD-DT is at 15-25 (down from 30)
KRMA-DT is still at 71. (no change)

I still can't tune any of the other stations.

The only thing that changed recently is the Coupon money ran out.

Wasn't that common knowledge all along? I mean, as I understand it, they had a finite amount of money allocated for the coupon program which is why they were encouraging people to apply for their coupons early since it was a first come first served situation. Why is everyone so surprised that the money ran out?

But wait... there's more!

Another story on the delay (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/01/08/digital-tv-transition-del_n_156346.html)

Actually, I am thinking another delay is a good thing. I am really going to miss that "temporary" UHF antenna I lashed to a deck post in the back yard back in about 2001 to pick up KRMA. I grown accustomed to its hideous look in the back yard. And its also so much fun re-pointing it every time the wind blows over 50 mph, which is more often than you would think here in Boulder. I am soooo going to miss it when they change over and it is replaced once again by the antenna in the attic. Maybe just a few more months for old times sake.
:rolleyes: