I suspect you don't smoke. I quit many years ago, but my wife still does, and a carton of her brand is over $40 at Sams Club.

No, I don't - I was just going off the price of the generic smokes you can buy on the net.

I suspect a carton of Marlboros are over $40 as well…

Wasn't that common knowledge all along? I mean, as I understand it, they had a finite amount of money allocated for the coupon program which is why they were encouraging people to apply for their coupons early since it was a first come first served situation. Why is everyone so surprised that the money ran out?

You, and other reasonable people, are not surprised. Of course, anyone who looked at the data and trends, and has any common sense, could see that the money would run out. But, the problem was in the future. An awful lot of people don't worry about the future. But now, the money has actually run out. For these people, the problem suddenly became a reality. Now our elected officials cannot pretend that it won't run out. They also can't let those who did not apply in time, and voted for them, to take responsibility for their own inaction. They have to fix it, because they believe government should fix everything, and the people who voted for most of the incoming elected officials expect government to take care of them. They voted for, and expect, a Nanny State.

Sorry, I guess it is time to get off my soap box.

Seems like the ol' thread again. We've replaced sCARE with the coupon scenario and potentially extending the analog cutoff. And we're again talking about an act of Congress.:p

My signal strengths for the LOM stations are all back up into the 80's tonight. Perhaps it was the wind. But my antenna is above all of the trees and houses and I didn't know the wind could blow radio waves around.

And my signal from KQCK would be great - if only they were on the air.:D

Seems like the ol' thread again. We've replaced sCARE with the coupon scenario and potentially extending the analog cutoff. And we're again talking about an act of Congress.:p

My signal strengths for the LOM stations are all back up into the 80's tonight. Perhaps it was the wind. But my antenna is above all of the trees and houses and I didn't know the wind could blow radio waves around.

And my signal from KQCK would be great - if only they were on the air.:D
The signal levels I have have observed for LCG have been pretty stable since Sunday. I believe someone, and I think it was Kucharsk, was told there was a repair of a water damaged cable. I would love to believe an actual repair, like that, has solved the Louisville KCNC problems. I always hated problems that just went away, because I would always worry that they would return at the worst possible time.

Until 11/15/08, when KCNC changed the pattern, I did not have any problems with LCG stations. I generally get all the stations that are predicted by TVFOOL. I even get KBDI most of the time, in spite of the shadowing. The one station I often have trouble with is KRMA-DT. It seems to be especially bad after front range snowfall. I do wonder if accumulated snow on the building and possibly some of the terrain that the KRMA-DT signal aimed to the north hits increases the reflection and scattering. It got nice and warm today, which would have melted any accumulation, and KRMA-DT is about as strong as it gets. That's my crazy theory until someone comes up with something better. I can also accept that it is just atmospheric conditions, and the snow is coincidence.

Are you LOS to the LCG stations, or is there something in between that could create an extra variable?

The signal levels I have have observed for LCG have been pretty stable since Sunday. I believe someone, and I think it was Kucharsk, was told there was a repair of a water damaged cable. I would love to believe an actual repair, like that, has solved the Louisville KCNC problems. I always hated problems that just went away, because I would always worry that they would return at the worst possible time.

That's what I was told by an engineer at KCNC.

BTW, I've never seen a whiff of KBDI-DT off my antenna, but I think I might be slightly to the west of you, making the shadowing worse.

FWIW TVFool also says I shouldn't see KBDI-DT. :D

As the government sold off the right to use the upper UHF frequencies, it can not longer dictate that television broadcasting be allowed on those frequencies after Feb 17th. Congress has no longer any say in to whether or not analog broadcasts can continue on those frequencies. Congress would have to get permission of the owners of those frequencies to allow TV to continue to use them.

And my signal from KQCK would be great - if only they were on the air.:D

No big loss! Since they lost their RTN affiliation, there's nothing worth watching on KQCK anyway.

Posted by kenavs:
Are you LOS to the LCG stations, or is there something in between that could create an extra variable?
I can see the towers on LOM from my second story BR windows. My antenna is on a 30 foot telescoping mast, rotor, and another 5 foot mast with the antenna at the top. I definitely have LOS to LOM.

Posted by MikeBiker:
As the government sold off the right to use the upper UHF frequencies, it can not longer dictate that television broadcasting be allowed on those frequencies after Feb 17th. Congress has no longer any say in to whether or not analog broadcasts can continue on those frequencies. Congress would have to get permission of the owners of those frequencies to allow TV to continue to use them.
As someone who worked for the federal gov't for 37+ years and who worked with Congressional staff from time to time, IMO Congress can do anything they want (and sometimes do). The question usually is are they smart enought to do the right thing, properly recognizing all players involved? So they pass a bill renting channels 52-69 from the new owners from February 18 to June 30 at whatever they deem to be FMV. Probably won't happen, but if Congress really wanted to do it, they would.

</rant>
Oh great, another several months of squish-o-vision by KUSA/9News who apparently have a moron working for them that seems to e always looking for some reason to put something across the bottom of the screen and vertically squeeze the picture! If its not the changover its weather, news, etc. There are evenings when it seems like every program is squished with a message of some kind from 9News!
In the case of the changeover message, why is necessary to keep showing a message for several minutes that takes only a few seconds to read? Do they think that viewers are idiots?
</rant>

Here's an article that goes into a bit more depth on the issue:

http://tech.yahoo.com/news/ap/20090109/ap_on_hi_te/tec_digital_tv_transition_13

The problem is that we're a society of victims that make a habit of procrastination.

Just an update in a low-wind evening.

My KCNC-TV is at 68 now (up from 44)
KTFD-DT is at 15-25 (down from 30)
KRMA-DT is still at 71. (no change)

I still can't tune any of the other stations.

When you say "tune" do you mean via scan, or are you just trying to change to a channel and getting a "channel not available" message from your tv? You said before that your tv cannot tune or scan an individual channel, so you must do a full channel scan each time you want to check for a new channel. It doesn't seem from your statement that you actually tried this. When KCNC was showing a signal level of 68, that would have been a good time to rerun a scan and see if it picked up any other LOM stations.

Even if your tv could scan for an individual channel by you just entering the channel number with your remote, you would have to be entering the physical number, not the virtual number. So 16,17, & 19 for 9,7, and 20. (34 & 32 for 2 and 31)

KTFD channel 15(14.1) really should be your strongest. Its LOS, and actually up on the tower at Mt Morrison, unlike KRMA. This makes me think you have something more seriously wrong, like bad connections (earlier stated) or your attic is inhospitable to tv signals, i.e. aluminium backed siding material. To debug this you should really start with something simple and progress from there. Move your tv to a second floor west facing room with a window, connect your antenna to tv with a short (6'-10') coax, and point to LOM while monitoring your signal strength. This would clearly be easier using a set top box with signal meter, rather than having to run a full scan with each adjustment. Borrowing a box might be a solution for you.

There are many people in this forum with worse signal conditions who have simple working stable solutions.

I have had my EH55 working well with the EPG over Direct tv with and RCA receiver the last 2 1/2 years.

Back in nov I had to send the eh55 in for repairs, needed a new dvd burner.

Dec I upgraded my Direct TV receiver to one made by them a model D11.

Jan 2cond got my eh55 back and have not been able to download the EPG guide.

Anyone in the Denver area with direct tv and their model D11 reciever and an EH55 that is getting the guide up on their eh55?

I found out from Panny TV Guide Tech support that for the last few months the EPG in several markets has been down a week or 2 at a time, as they have been working on a new digital signal that will work with analog devices like our EH55 (TV's, VCR's, DVR's and the like).

They though that all markets should have a working EPG within the next 2 weeks.

But if some one from denver can confrim if our market place currently has a working guide it would help me to know if I have a problem on my end.

Thanks BCallen

</rant>...Do they think that viewers are idiots?</rant>

Yes, they probably do. :)

BTW, anybody else find it odd that in the current 9NEWS spot about hooking up a converter box, Mark Koebrick is hooking it up to a rather large wide screen TV? :rolleyes:

BTW, anybody else find it odd that in the current 9NEWS spot about hooking up a converter box, Mark Koebrick is hooking it up to a rather large wide screen TV? :rolleyes:

I thought it was good to point out that its not just old analog tv's, but also all the "HD Ready" or "Digital Ready" sets that people bought 5-10 years ago can utilize a CECB to receive digital HD OTA (instead of the cable/sat that most of them are connected to). You should probably use something better than a CECB for this, although the zenith/insignia box puts out a nice 16:9 picture showing the full HD field of view. I'm sure its just an extension of the 480i standard, but most would never know.

I believe the 9NEWS spot points out that the tuner box is HD.

BTW, anybody else find it odd that in the current 9NEWS spot about hooking up a converter box, Mark Koebrick is hooking it up to a rather large wide screen TV?

Odd? Nahh... everybody needs a converter box, right? :mad:

Here's another 9NEWS example of "good idea, bad execution:" The Koebrick spot suggesting that some viewers might need to replace their antennas. The visuals in it imply replacement of an old outdoor RS VHF-only antenna with a brand spankin' new RS U-75R in the attic. Yeeaaahhhh... That'll work really well after KUSA's digital signal moves back to channel 9, where the UHF-only U-75 has no gain to speak of.

When you say "tune" do you mean via scan, or are you just trying to change to a channel and getting a "channel not available" message from your tv? You said before that your tv cannot tune or scan an individual channel, so you must do a full channel scan each time you want to check for a new channel. It doesn't seem from your statement that you actually tried this. When KCNC was showing a signal level of 68, that would have been a good time to rerun a scan and see if it picked up any other LOM stations.

Sorry... didn't realize I had to specify that "I ran a scan and my TV couldn't tune any of the other stations." I just wanted to put out there that I couldn't get any new stations despite the improved signal from LOM without getting all into what I tried or didn't try or whatever.

I'm not trying to sound sarcastic, but I honestly didn't think I needed to say everything I tried.

Even if your tv could scan for an individual channel by you just entering the channel number with your remote, you would have to be entering the physical number, not the virtual number. So 16,17, & 19 for 9,7, and 20. (34 & 32 for 2 and 31)

I didn't know that, Good to know. Thank you.

KTFD channel 15(14.1) really should be your strongest. Its LOS, and actually up on the tower at Mt Morrison, unlike KRMA. This makes me think you have something more seriously wrong, like bad connections (earlier stated) or your attic is inhospitable to tv signals, i.e. aluminium backed siding material. To debug this you should really start with something simple and progress from there. Move your tv to a second floor west facing room with a window, connect your antenna to tv with a short (6'-10') coax, and point to LOM while monitoring your signal strength. This would clearly be easier using a set top box with signal meter, rather than having to run a full scan with each adjustment. Borrowing a box might be a solution for you.

I live in a townhouse community. Between my unit and LOM, there is at least one other building, and if I bring my antenna down below my attic, I then have to try to pull signal through their second story.... which is probably full of electronics and electrical wiring for outlets. When I was using rabbit ears, my signal strength was identical on the first floor to the 2nd floor. The attic was the only place that the signal strength improved.

This evening I will pull the antenna connector back apart to make sure that it's connecting properly.

There are many people in this forum with worse signal conditions who have simple working stable solutions.
I know what "should" be, but that's not what's happening.

Odd? Nahh... everybody needs a converter box, right? :mad:

Here's another 9NEWS example of "good idea, bad execution:" The Koebrick spot suggesting that some viewers might need to replace their antennas. The visuals in it imply replacement of an old outdoor RS VHF-only antenna with a brand spankin' new RS U-75R in the attic. Yeeaaahhhh... That'll work really well after KUSA's digital signal moves back to channel 9, where the UHF-only U-75 has no gain to speak of.Even the sales drones in BB, CC, Ultimate, etc. don't have much of a clue. They want to try and sell you a new TV with a digital tuner rather than recommend you get a converter box. I wonder how many people have been suckered into buying a new TV when all they really needed was a converter box. In this economy many people can't afford newer TVs. Oh, and lets not forget that you need a special "HD" antenna to get HDTV.

I got my antenna, and it's difficult to get it aimed correctly. It still amazes me that if it's off even slightly the signal strength goes to zero. :(

So here's what I have and what TV Fool says I should have with my signal strength on the far right. I've aimed my antenna close to 297 degrees, and I have it angled up a few degrees. The fact that I'm only receiving one of the stations from that azimuth is frustrating... not only that, but I'm not even receiving the strongest one from there (I should receive MyNetwork, but I don't). The thing that's weird is that KCNC has a higher effective ERP at my location with a lower NM(dB). Everything I've read says that NM(dB) is the important thing.

On the analog side of the channels listed below, KRMA (6) is my worst of the ones listed yet it comes in digital when the others don't. Not only that, but I receive stations down to -12NM(dB), and that's one that's broadcasting from Cheyenne Mountain.

Callsign|Net|Station|NM(dB)|Path|Mag Az|Strength/100
KTFD-DT|Telemundo|14.1|65.3|LOS|268|30
KRMT-DT|Independant|41.1|54.9|LOS|223|0
KRMA-DT|PBS|6.1(.2, .3)|38.9|1Edge|38|71
KTVD-DT|MyNetwork|20.1|35.7|1Edge|297|0
KCNC-TV|CBS|4.1|32.0|1Edge|297|44
KDVR|Fox|31.1|30.2|2Edge|295|0
KUSA-DT|NBC|9.1|21.7|1Edge|297|0
KWGN-DT|CW|2.1|18.7|2Edge|297|0
KMGH-TV|ABC|7.1|16.9|1Edge|297|0


Laura,
I think I asked before, but don't remember an answer. With the analog signals you receive well, does that include Fox31/KDVR and/or 2/KWGN?

Is your ATSC tuner locking on KCNC-DT with a reading of 44 (out of ?) or do you get frequent break-ups/drops?

As someone else noted, your antenna's beamwidth should allow for a range of traverse of probably 10 degrees in each direction from the 297 degrees spot on to LOM. If you only get a signal at one exact point, then you may have significant reception problems.

Good job with the angling your new antenna up a few degrees. If I remember correctly, the "rule-of-thumb" for tough DTV reception is an up angle of 15 to 20 degrees. Back when I was getting my local DTV from the Republic Plaza (RP) location, I was reading bounced signals over a ridge line about a mile from my house that blocked LOS. I tilted my antenna toward the top of the ridge to achieve the best reception. However, if that tilt starts getting near 30 degrees or more, that's too much. Oh, and don't bother trying your antenna with it on its side. The RF signals are in a horizontal plane, so the antenna's signal receiving elements need to be in the horizontal plane.

There are some contributors (e.g., gakon) on this thread with software that can diagram the terrain elevations between the LCG LOM tower and your location, if you'd like to see just how high those 1-Edge and 2-Edge obstructions are. You'd need to PM them your coordinates, which you can obtain from this site:
http://www.juggling.org/bin/un.cgi/map-find

Don't put a lot of faith in the TVFool numerical data. I, for one, experience actual reception results that differ considerably from the TVFool data. It's a starting point and a computer model, but nothing more. There are many more variables in the real world situation.

Finally, as others have noted, don't give up just yet. Signals will be different after transition, which improve your reception. Also, if you need to pick up signals off the top of those Edges and maybe bounced signals, you may need to incorporate a pre-amp into your set up. That's another +$50
investment that is usually not returnable, so hold-off until all else has failed. Some, like me, were only able to receive DTV from the downtown broadcasts with the use of a pre-amp. I still need one for most LOM channels and to get KWHD-DT from 38 miles away with Edges.

Uh, Oh!

The Gov is thinking of delaying the Feb 17 analog cutoff date.

BroadcastingCable Article (http://www.broadcastingcable.com/CA6627445.html)

I read where Consumers Union, publishers of Consumers Reports, stuck their noses into this in favor of a delay. As a CR subscriber, I've emailed CR to voice my displeasure and disagreement with their actions.

I really don't see what the new administration have to gain by changing the date at this late hour. If there are any problems with the transition, they can just blame Dubya; he'll be retired by then, and is pretty thick-skinned anyway.

That's just it, they are blaming Dubya and trying to show how compassionate they are compared to him. The spin this is getting is that the Bush administration opposes any postponement and now the transition will negatively impact, the poor, the infirm, the old, etc. (i.e., they are trying to say this is just Dubya doing a Katrina response again). So the new administration wants to show that they aren't like that and they won't ignore those poor, destitute OTA TV viewers in the "ninth Ward". It's all politics as usual.

I missed reading the forum for a while because of the holidays and all but I skimming thru them to catch up but still have a question about KMGH. I used to get them just fine. I lost 7-1 while they were working on their antenna problem before Christmas. Then a week or so ago I rescanned and was able to get a very low quality signal. My Samsung will display a pixelated frozen picture sometimes. I get all the others from LOM fine. I am east of Ft. Lupton. From my view they definitely have degraded their signal. If I read the other posts correctly it sounds like they will stay this way till Feb or when ever the cut-off happens?

thanks

My last correspondence from KMGH engineering was that what you see now is what you are going to get until transition. However, I think if enough folks show them something just isn't right, maybe they will look at it again.

Wasn't that common knowledge all along? I mean, as I understand it, they had a finite amount of money allocated for the coupon program which is why they were encouraging people to apply for their coupons early since it was a first come first served situation. Why is everyone so surprised that the money ran out?

That was before the national "in thing" was bailouts. Limited funding to aid transition to DTV. Now nobody should have to suffer any economic consequences of their actions if it is possible for the Government to bail them out.

I apologize, I thought I answered.

Analog channel 2 is crystal clear and 31 has a slight ghost, but for an SD signal it's pretty darn clear.

All of my channel powers are out of 100.

I may need to angle it up a little farther, because I think it's only about 10 degrees.

I'm still unclear what "edge" means... is it bounce ( like off a mountain) or is it how many obstacles are in the way? Like the 1Edge are just behind Green Mountain, and the 2Edge are both Green Mountain and the northern edge of Bear Valley?

AS a side note, when I got home KCNC was at 71/100 strength, so I rescanned and still didn't get any more.

KCNC-DT - 68/100 (earlier when I got home it was 71/100)
KRMA-DT - 74/100
KTFD-DT - 30-40/100

My tuner will lock on a 480i station at 30... decently at 25, but 30 there is no pixelation. The 44 that I had the other day was full lock at 1080i for KCNC. I don't know how low it can go with 1080i, but 44 was solid.

I also learned that if the scan can't tune the channel that I can't get them no matter which station I try... the real channel or the virtual. I believe that means that I cannot do anything with digital unless they are scanned.

Here's an article that goes into a bit more depth on the issue:

http://tech.yahoo.com/news/ap/20090109/ap_on_hi_te/tec_digital_tv_transition_13

The problem is that we're a society of victims that make a habit of procrastination.

I read that article and all I can say is OMG what a screwed up country we've become.

I apologize, I thought I answered.

Analog channel 2 is crystal clear and 31 has a slight ghost, but for an SD signal it's pretty darn clear.

All of my channel powers are out of 100.

I may need to angle it up a little farther, because I think it's only about 10 degrees.

I'm still unclear what "edge" means... is it bounce ( like off a mountain) or is it how many obstacles are in the way? Like the 1Edge are just behind Green Mountain, and the 2Edge are both Green Mountain and the northern edge of Bear Valley?

AS a side note, when I got home KCNC was at 71/100 strength, so I rescanned and still didn't get any more.

KCNC-DT - 68/100 (earlier when I got home it was 71/100)
KRMA-DT - 74/100
KTFD-DT - 30-40/100

My tuner will lock on a 480i station at 30... decently at 25, but 30 there is no pixelation. The 44 that I had the other day was full lock at 1080i for KCNC. I don't know how low it can go with 1080i, but 44 was solid.

I also learned that if the scan can't tune the channel that I can't get them no matter which station I try... the real channel or the virtual. I believe that means that I cannot do anything with digital unless they are scanned.

The fact that you get 2 and 31 analog is good news. That means you will probably be able to receive their DTV signals after transition since they will be increasing power and have their broadcast antennas near the top of their towers instead of a ways down. If 44 is a lock and you are getting KCNC at 71, I think that the other 3 on the LCG tower on LOM should be attainable.

After ensuring that those "U" shaped connectors (I'm assuming these are on the end of wires and are the hookup for your antenna's balun) are making good contact, and trying some elevation angle increases, let us know what you see. I'm starting to lean more and more to the thought that a pre-amp may be the ultimate solution to your problems. No guarantees though.

I'm not positive, but I think that "Edges" refer to obstructions to LOS as they match up with my obstructions one for one.

'Edges' refer to the bending of the signal from the terrain. A first edge means the signal follows the drop off after the obstacle (but at a reduced level). A second edge is a bending of the first edge by a second obstacle.

Laura,
Each situation is different. For people to be able to help you, they have to know specifics. That is how it is, otherwise we are guessing. Please don't take it as any kind of an affront! This is the reason that I refuse to do any level of technical support at work via email...IT SUCKS!!

A good thing to do to make sure those internal fingers are straight and look like they should be making good physical contact to the wires on the antenna side. If not it can make the antenna system act like nothing much better than your rabbit ears!

We are with you on this..don't get frustrated ..work with us!
If things "should" work, but they don't, there is a reason. That is what we are trying to figure out...WHY! Sometimes, going over things multiple times until it is all sorted out, and every one is on the same page with you, is the only way to get there. So yeah, sometimes you may be asked for imfomation that you were not aware was important...in the interest of understanding.

Phil

Sorry... didn't realize I had to specify that "I ran a scan and my TV couldn't tune any of the other stations." I'm not trying to sound sarcastic, but I honestly didn't think I needed to say everything I tried.


This evening I will pull the antenna connector back apart to make sure that it's connecting properly.
I know what "should" be, but that's not what's happening.

Knife Edge Diffraction is when an RF (radio frequency) signal comes to a hoizontal obstruction. Part of the wave front is diffracted so that it is "bent" downward and will fill in the void BELOW the edge. This allows some signal to go past and below the obstruction. Depending upon the frequency of the signal this can allow decent reception past the ridge. Lower frquencies (VHF) diffract better than higher frequencies (UHF).Which is why you may have better luck when (or IF) channels 7 and 9 move to VHF after the conversion. Also, the further you are away from the "edge" the better the fill gets ( to the extent that the weaker diffracted signal will give a decent NM based on the inverse square law of signal degradation over distance). Immediately beyond the edge, there may not be enough diffraction, or bending to fill in (think of a water fall going over a steep cliff, if it is moving fast enough, the area just under the edge could be dry). Single edge means just that..the signal went over just one edge. Double edge...two edges...etc.

It sucks that you can't manualy tune. That is exactly how my RCA CRT tuner works. I always hated that about it! But, it is what it is.

Phil

I apologize, I thought I answered.

I'm still unclear what "edge" means... is it bounce ( like off a mountain) or is it how many obstacles are in the way? Like the 1Edge are just behind Green Mountain, and the 2Edge are both Green Mountain and the northern edge of Bear Valley?

I also learned that if the scan can't tune the channel that I can't get them no matter which station I try... the real channel or the virtual. I believe that means that I cannot do anything with digital unless they are scanned.

It sucks that you can't manualy tune. That is exactly how my RCA CRT tuner works. I always hated that about it! But, it is what it is.

Phil

The RCA CECB is the same, you have to do a full scan and then can only look at signal strength on those channels it "found". For this , and other similarly poor firmware design issues, I would recommend against buying this CECB. I found it at Target.

It appears that I must apologize again. I wasn't giving a lot of information mainly because I wasn't trying to get you all to solve my problem yet. I was mainly providing information in case any of my neighbors or anyone else in the shadow of Green Mountain came across this thread. The feedback that I've gotten explaining how DTV works and what Edges are, what antennas are good and all of the other answers that I've gotten have been awesome!

I came across this thread when I was trying to find out about my reception problems. I didn't see anything else about my area of Bear Valley, so I'm posting all of my information and signal levels and all of what I've done to get this worked out. I'm trying to do my part in the wealth of information that is the Internet. :)

So a little about my technical background. I was trained on AC/DC electronics repair, communications networks, and database programming in the Army, and I spent 6 years in the service working with voice communications across VHF/UHF/Satellite/Tropo signal shots. I worked in the switch and had to be able to tell the radio operators how to troubleshoot their own signals. I've always been into computer programming / software engineering, so that's what I do now, but I've had jobs in a lot of areas in computers and networks.

However, with all of my technical background, I'm still learning about the technical details of radio signals. In the Army I would just tell them "no, the signal has to be perfect before I can turn on the encryption!" and "do it now!" ;) That was why one of my first questions about the digital sounded like I thought it was going to have to be stronger than the analog... because our digital signal had to be perfect to pass all of our data. But then again, we were passing 72 voice channels per link, and I don't know what the power level was. I'm learning.

Laura,

Your technical background has been pretty evident from the start, hence your intelligent questions, and you've been willing to follow the advice you've sought. I can't tell you what a pleasure that is after having tried to help so many other posters who flat-out refuse to understand/believe/heed the advice they've been offered. Too often, we hear, "but I only want that tiny little antenna" when the poster is 80 miles out; they insist that adding a third amplifier just has to improve their DTV reception; "but the advertising said this antenna is for all channels" when it's clearly designed for UHF only (and the copy is misleading); etc., etc.

So, please, keep posting your observations and experiences. As you seem to have suggested above, this might help someone else living in your area at some point in the future. And if you stick around on the forum after you've resolved your reception issues, you'll be in the best position to assist them personally!

'Edges' refer to the bending of the signal from the terrain. A first edge means the signal follows the drop off after the obstacle (but at a reduced level). A second edge is a bending of the first edge by a second obstacle.

Thus it matches the number of terrain obstacles that block LOS transmission from the source to the receiver.

Well the RMN this morning came out on the right side of the digital transition issue:

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/news/2009/jan/10/dont-delay-digital-age/

Since a few million more dollars for CECBs would be lost in the rounding of the Federal budget, vote the program some money fast and leave the transition date alone.

Channel 12's analog signal is nowhere to be found. There's nothing but snow now. Been awhile since I looked at anything analog, but I ran by it late last night and it was gone. It's still out today.

Likewise, KRMJ, the RMPBS outlet in Grand Junction, is all digital now after its analog transmitter failed on New Year's Eve. The station's statement on the outage (http://www.rmpbs.org/content/index.cfm/fuseaction/showContent/contentID/521/navID/475) casts doubt on whether they'll even bother fixing the analog transmitter.

Hmm... Wonder how many more "major analog transmitter failures" we'll see if Congress rolls back the DTV transition date... again. :rolleyes:

EDIT:

Nope. From the home page:

KBDI's analog transmission line has incurred a serious break, requiring KDBI to turn off its analog transmitter during repairs. The problem has also been compounded by work required for the station's conversion to digital.

KBDI hopes to restore its analog signal on January 16.

Love that second sentence!

Channel 12's analog signal is nowhere to be found. There's nothing but snow now. Been awhile since I looked at anything analog, but I ran by it late last night and it was gone. It's still out today.


Part of KBDI's transition plan was to reduce power on their analog signal (I can't remember the details, but I seem to remember that they were going to take 1 of 2 primary transmitters offline) so that they could remove a transmitter from service and have it converted for use on RF13. Then on the transition date they were going to use this converted transmitter to transmit on their post transition channel (RF13), but not at full power. They would then have to have the other transmitter converted before they could go to full power on RF13.

So it is possible that the first step has been taken and KBDI is still broadcasting an analog signal, but with reduced power so that many people will no longer be able to receive it. Is anyone able to still receive KBDI's analog service on RF12?

The other possibilities is that the act of removing or changing the configuration has caused some problem or delay, and they have yet to restore their analog service. Or it could just be a transmitter failure.

Anyway, once KBDI begins their transition plan (if they have not already started to do so) I imagine they would actually not be very happy about a delay in the transition date, because they would then be kind of stuck in mid transition. They don't have the option of just going to their final post transition digital service, since RF13 needs to be vacated first.

KBDI is not the only station with a complicated transition plan requiring either silencing or reducing power on their analog signal. These stations may not be able to wait for congress to determine if the transition date will be delayed, because if it is not delayed then they won't be ready on Feb 17th if they wait. This is another reason why delaying the transition is a bad idea.

I imagine KBDI-DT could flash-cut to 13 now if they wanted to, but would have to obtain an interference acceptance agreement from KRDO. It would limit coverage to the south but they could do it, I figure.

- Trip

Hmm... Wonder how many more "major analog transmitter failures" we'll see if Congress rolls back the DTV transition date... again. :rolleyes:

Especially if the failures occur around midnight of the 17th :D

Mr. Video,

Just noticed the reference in your signature block. Sorry about your loss. Those of us who have lost close, loving K9 companions know how hard it is to cope with that loss. Hope you find another needy pooch to help fill some of the void.

Sorry about your loss.

Thanks, I appreciate the sentiments.

I do miss that mutt. Not sure if I want to get another dog, but I am leaning toward doing that. If I do, I will go to the local human society and adopt.

Not sure if I want to get another dog, but I am leaning toward doing that. If I do, I will go to the local human society and adopt.

Good for you. Our first dog was a 7-year old, "free-to-good-home" from an elderly lady and he was the best of the best. Of our current two, one, a pure bred, was abandoned as a pup at our vet's office and the other was a 2-year old we adopted from a rescue group displaying dogs at PetsMart. He was saved off "death row" at the Greeley, Colorado dog pound after being on the streets for some time. He's the most people loving dog i've every encountered and it's hard to believe he almost wasn't going to be around the past 8 years. So many good dogs just need a home and a chance.

So many good dogs just need a home and a chance.

'Tis very true. I grew up aound Spanials, mostly Cockers. That is because the old man wa a hunter. Cockers make great bird dogs (pheasant/quail). They also made great family dogs.

Dakota was part German Shephard and I'm not sure what else. My daughter brought him home. She was at a party (teenager) and they had this puppy that they found up north, huddled next to his dead mother (so the story goes). Cori sisn't like the way the pup was bein treated and brought him home. At most he could have been 1-2 months. He hated riding in the car, but other than that, he was a great companion and managed to live a lot longer than expected. Must have been all that human food I brought home (I eat out, a lot).

Unfortunately I was at an install in MO and he had to be put down while I was gone. The vet figured that it was something internal that went really wrong. Sucked.

Now back to the more upbeat Denver TV thread. :D

So, KCEC-DT (50.1 on RF51) showed up in Fort Collins at around 11:20 AM on Saturday. I've gotten a few whiffs of it in the past, but it always broke up and it never lasted long. This time it is solid. The signal is weak, but I have not seen any loss of lock.

So, unless I've been experiencing an extended period of favorable atmospheric conditions, my guess is that KCEC has completed their move to Lookout Mountain. Note that they have a directional radiation pattern that is aimed to the southeast, so their best reception should be in that direction.

KCEC has started broadcasting from Lookout on low power. Construction is under way for the move to full power but won't likely be completed until very close to the cutover date. I would be interested to hear what areas can and can't see this signal. It is only a 500 W transmitter.

I tried on my DVR 2250 on my small antenna. Nothing. I will try on some of the other recievers a bit later and let you all know.
Keep in mind I have LOS to LM at about 10 miles. Hampden and Sheridan.


Well perhaps I screwed up with 2250 (either that or the tuner sucks even more than I think it does). I am using WatchHDTV and channels have to be added to a text file. Maybe my syntax is screwed up for 50-1. I got it on a DTT901 with about 75% signal off of a Silver Sensor sitting in my kitchen.

Phil

Hmm, you should see it from there with no problem. Both Dish and DirecTV are using the signal now and they are much further away. I can pick it up on my laptop at 8th and Grant with the little antennas that comes with one of those USB tuners.

Ah, just saw the update. Thanks!

So, KCEC-DT (50.1 on RF51) showed up in Fort Collins at around 11:20 AM on Saturday. I've gotten a few whiffs of it in the past, but it always broke up and it never lasted long. This time it is solid. The signal is weak, but I have not seen any loss of lock.

So, unless I've been experiencing an extended period of favorable atmospheric conditions, my guess is that KCEC has completed their move to Lookout Mountain. Note that they have a directional radiation pattern that is aimed to the southeast, so their best reception should be in that direction.

I've got a sniff of KCEC-DT (50.1 on RF51) on my Zenith 900 box is at 20-33%, not enough for a lock or even to remap.

I would be interested to hear what areas can and can't see this signal. It is only a 500 W transmitter.

From Niwot:
2 edge 25miles my pcHDTV5500 reports:
Chan 51(50.1 - KCEC) : AvgSignal: 019

it takes 40 to get picture. Compared to other signals:
Chan 18( 6.1 - KRMA) : AvgSignal: 023
Chan 38(12.1 - KBDI) : AvgSignal: 046
Chan 35( 4.1 - KCNC) : AvgSignal: 079

You rank with KRMA.

Thanks for the info from Niwot and Milliken. I will post when we get our full power antenna installed and see if this improves. Hopefully in about ten days we will have it hooked up. The analog signal will show a noticable decrease in power when this happens.

KCEC has started broadcasting from Lookout on low power. Construction is under way for the move to full power but won't likely be completed until very close to the cutover date. I would be interested to hear what areas can and can't see this signal. It is only a 500 W transmitter.
My Zenith CEBC shows that there is a 'bad' signal and does not lock.

I get 51 (50-1) at about 80% on my Zenith 900 CECB with Guide and Info just fine. However, off that same antenna feed, I can't get a whiff of it with any of my other 3 ATSC tuners (Samsung LN-T3253H, Dish ViP211, LG LST4200a). Obviously something isn't right with their signal.

Hmm, well the RF must be making it to you if you can see it with the Zenith. I wonder if there is a problem with the PSIP info.

Hmm, well the RF must be making it to you if you can see it with the Zenith.

I'm astonished to report that I get a clear, stable picture and good sound up here just north of Fort Collins(!). Where is your transmitter located?

KCEC-DT comes through on all three of my receivers:

- A Zenith CECB
- An RCA CECB
- A PC equipped with an ATI HDTV Wonder tuner card. The system runs MythTV under Ubuntu Linux.

I wonder if there is a problem with the PSIP info.

Your station is not yet transimitting accurate program data via EIT.


Jim McCauley

KCEC-DT showing up at 30% on one TV, 50% on the other. These TV's have separate indoor antennas, the 50% one is on the first floor with a slightly better antenna (true rabbit ears). I have LOS to LOM.

I'm astonished to report that I get a clear, stable picture and good sound up here just north of Fort Collins(!). Where is your transmitter located?

KCEC-DT comes through on all three of my receivers:

- A Zenith CECB
- An RCA CECB
- A PC equipped with an ATI HDTV Wonder tuner card. The system runs MythTV under Ubuntu Linux.



Your station is not yet transimitting accurate program data via EIT.


Jim McCauley

This surprises me as well. I'm aware of the problem with the program data and will fix it soon. It should just be giving the same data over and over right now. The transmitter is located on KWGN's tower on Lookout Mountain. This standby antenna that I am presently on is oriented at 90 degrees or just to the south of downtown Denver with the main lobe. The full power antenna that is going to be installed wil be oriented at 160 degrees until we can change the mounts. We are planning on moving that around to 90 degrees as well.

KCEC-DT showing up at 30% on one TV, 50% on the other. These TV's have separate indoor antennas, the 50% one is on the first floor with a slightly better antenna (true rabbit ears). I have LOS to LOM.

I was hoping for better signal to the south. I'll take some RF measurements from various points in the city this week and see if I can make some adjustments. Part of the problem may be that the old analog antenna is on the tower to the south of this one and may be causing some issues to the south.

I've got a sniff of KCEC-DT (50.1 on RF51) on my Zenith 900 box is at 20-33%, not enough for a lock or even to remap.

While Tim is two blocks south of me and his best is 33%, I am receiving KCEC-DT at about 50% on three separate converter boxes (a Zenith DTT900, an Insignia box, & a CM converter box) and it is locking on all three. But then I'm running a Leviton 10-25db variable amp, with it cranked up to about 22db and a CM 4228 at about 25 ft.

This surprises me as well.

I should add that all three of my receivers are fed from a common antenna: a Terk 38, which is a 14-foot broadband monster. I've recently (and carefully) added amplification (a Leviton unit from Home Depot) and cable, with some splitting. Surprisingly, reception among all three receivers appears to be unaffected.

The transmitter is located on KWGN's tower on Lookout Mountain.

I was wondering :-) The FCC database located your digital transmitter way south, west of Castle Rock, so you can imagine how my jaw dropped when I tuned you in.

Good luck with the tower mechanics, stay warm and be safe!

Jim McCauley

I've always gotten a whiff of KCEC, usually just enough to hold a lock with lots of pixelation and dropouts. I just tried, using 4 different receivers - Insignia TV, Accurian tuner, E* OTA tuner, and my Audiovox LCD kitchen TV (on rabbit ears) and my signal has gone way down, not enough to lock.

In doing the above, I noticed all of my signals from LOM are way down again. This morning, I had KCNC in the 90's, it's now at 74, KMGH won't lock while KUSA and KTVD are in the low 60's now with lots of dropouts. I just wish the transition would come and get over with. When the stations will have only digital, perhaps this BS of constantly changing signal strengths will finally come to an end.

KCEC has started broadcasting from Lookout on low power. ... I would be interested to hear what areas can and can't see this signal. It is only a 500 W transmitter.

I'm in Fort Collins with a roof-mounted CM-9228 and a CM-7775 preamp. I have seen the signal detected briefly every minute or two at a strength (58%) just below what my Dish 942 takes to get a lock (about 60%). If it was steadier, it'd be close, since it isn't seen on a scan. I added it manually, but didn't ever see a picture. Still, not bad for 500W :-)

Getting KCEC at 70% here in Bennett. Not too shabby.

I've always gotten a whiff of KCEC, usually just enough to hold a lock with lots of pixelation and dropouts. I just tried, using 4 different receivers - Insignia TV, Accurian tuner, E* OTA tuner, and my Audiovox LCD kitchen TV (on rabbit ears) and my signal has gone way down, not enough to lock.

In doing the above, I noticed all of my signals from LOM are way down again. This morning, I had KCNC in the 90's, it's now at 74, KMGH won't lock while KUSA and KTVD are in the low 60's now with lots of dropouts. I just wish the transition would come and get over with. When the stations will have only digital, perhaps this BS of constantly changing signal strengths will finally come to an end.
I am not seeing anything like the variation you are experiencing. I am at a completely different line, but it sure seems strange that all the LOM stations have been stable for me since last Sunday, but varying for you. I believe you said you have a tower and rotor. Any chance the recent very high winds have done some damage and your antenna is moving around?

Posted by kenavs:
I am not seeing anything like the variation you are experiencing. I am at a completely different line, but it sure seems strange that all the LOM stations have been stable for me since last Sunday, but varying for you. I believe you said you have a tower and rotor. Any chance the recent very high winds have done some damage and your antenna is moving around?
I thought of that, but I don't think it's my antenna system. I do need to replace my rotor, though, because it does have a few degrees of "play" in it. It's an old RS model that I bought over 30 years ago. My 'tenna rotor died last year and repairs cost more than a new one (several hundred $), so it went in the trash and I put this RS antique up for the time being. I get 2-1 in the high 80's, 14-1 in the high 90's, and 31-1 in the low 90's. They don't vary very much. So I think my antenna is pointed OK and the amp, RG-6, connections, etc. are still OK. If I point north, I also still get KCFT in the mid-70's and KQCK likewise, when KQCK is on the air!

I'm wondering if the LOM building(s) that house the transmitters and equipment are SE of the tower and the stations are turning down power towards the SE (I point NW, basically) so workers won't be subjected to high RF when they're in the building for long periods of time. I just can't think of any other reason why I have KCNC coming in at 96 signal strength Sunday morning and at 74 while I'm watching All Access after the news.

KCEC has started broadcasting from Lookout on low power. Construction is under way for the move to full power but won't likely be completed until very close to the cutover date. I would be interested to hear what areas can and can't see this signal. It is only a 500 W transmitter.

70% on my S3 TiVo in Louisville (or roughly what I get signal-wise from KRMA-DT.)

Posted by kenavs:

I thought of that, but I don't think it's my antenna system. I do need to replace my rotor, though, because it does have a few degrees of "play" in it. It's an old RS model that I bought over 30 years ago. My 'tenna rotor died last year and repairs cost more than a new one (several hundred $), so it went in the trash and I put this RS antique up for the time being. I get 2-1 in the high 80's, 14-1 in the high 90's, and 31-1 in the low 90's. They don't vary very much. So I think my antenna is pointed OK and the amp, RG-6, connections, etc. are still OK. If I point north, I also still get KCFT in the mid-70's and KQCK likewise, when KQCK is on the air!

I'm wondering if the LOM building(s) that house the transmitters and equipment are SE of the tower and the stations are turning down power towards the SE (I point NW, basically) so workers won't be subjected to high RF when they're in the building for long periods of time. I just can't think of any other reason why I have KCNC coming in at 96 signal strength Sunday morning and at 74 while I'm watching All Access after the news.

I don't think they have the ability to turn down a direction. Also, the antenna is so high above the building that there should be no RF problem there. I have heard that there is some work going on with the antenna, but I don't know details.

70% on my S3 TiVo in Louisville (or roughly what I get signal-wise from KRMA-DT.)

I am happy to hear that you're getting a good signal there and Bennett also. That does make me wonder if I'm putting too much energy towards the horizon.

I am getting a strong signal for KCEC-DT with my attic-mounted CM4228 here in Boulder. Before the recent change I was getting some signal, but not enough to lock.

I was hoping for better signal to the south. I'll take some RF measurements from various points in the city this week and see if I can make some adjustments. Part of the problem may be that the old analog antenna is on the tower to the south of this one and may be causing some issues to the south.

Those signal strengths are with the meters on the TV's. I'm not sure how accurate they are. The 30% TV is using a 3 - 4' long wire as an antenna, the 50% TV is using rabbit ears that are not extended beyond the first segment. KCEC is not a channel I watch regularly, but I saw no breakups on either TV. That might lessen your concern.

My Zenith CEBC shows that there is a 'bad' signal and does not lock.

My DTT901 and DTVPal don't see KCEC at all.

I can see KWGN - not enough signal to lock.

At the moment I can get KCNC but not KMGH (0 signal showing). I'm guessing all the wind has shifted the roof antenna just enough I'm out of the spot where I can get both.

towermonkey,

KCEC-DT is stable here within a signal-level meter range from 75 to 77/100. We're 23 miles from your tower at 107 true azimuth with LOS. Antenna is a hand-built DB4 clone in the attic, not amplified; receiver is AOC/Envision L26W761.

Pretty impressive signal for only a half kilowatt of power. :D

I can see KWGN - not enough signal to lock.

I've never known KWGN to do anything but blast in, so it does sound like you have an antenna issue.

Yesterday I did the geometry and figured out that my antenna needs to aim up 3.35 degrees (approximately) to be pointed directly at the edge of Green Mountain that the signal is using as a waterfall. My signal for KCNC didn't change, because I was already aiming up at about half that.

I also checked the connections inside the box on the antenna, and they were solid. I had already straightened the one that was bent, and it seems to have been making good contact.

When I put it back on, I also did another test for post-switchover. I removed the splitter closest to my TV (I have 2 splitters in-line) and ran it directly into the digital tuner. The signal strength on KCNC improved to 77-79%, so it looks like I'll get a decent gain when I don't need that last splitter.

Someone had asked me about signal lock, and I've seen discussions about low quality locking. I've noticed that my tuner will lock on a broadcast at 25% with minimal pixelation on a 480i picture. Once the 480i signal drops to about 11-15%, it becomes unwatchable, and below 10% it's just a black screen.

I do have another couple of questions. Is it best to point directly at the edge or is a little above or a little below better? How much signal loss comes from a cable connector (female/female to connect two cables) rather than a splitter? I could only assume that it would be much less loss than a splitter.

KCEC has started broadcasting from Lookout on low power. Construction is under way for the move to full power but won't likely be completed until very close to the cutover date. I would be interested to hear what areas can and can't see this signal. It is only a 500 W transmitter.

I'm North West of Fort Collins, 5 - 6 miles west from Jim McCauley.
I can see your KCEC-DT signal on my Zenith DTT900 at about the same strength as KRMA-DT and KBDI_DT - about 25%. None are being decoded.

KWGN-DT is my strongest received signal from LOM just ahead of KCNC-DT.
I reliably receive all of the Lake Cedar stations and KDVR-DT from LOM.

OK, checked each receiver/tuner again this morning for KCEC. I'm about 10 miles from the KWGN tower with LOS (allegedly per TVFool; I have my doubts) and I'm at 48 degrees True from the tower (i.e. the tower is 222 degrees True from me). My antenna, a Winegard PR-9018 is in the attic with a CM7775 pre-amp feeding 5 splits (4 digital, 1 analog).

Still get +80 and full program information on my Zenith DTT900. Still get absolutely nothing on my Samsung LNT3253H's tuner, which shares the split with my Zenith and is my second newest tuner.

My Dish ViP211 gets KCEC at 72/100 and shows channel information. However, since Dish superimposes local channel information, I don't know if the OTA data is being read correctly. With my LG LST4200a, which shares the split with my Dish receiver, I get a signal reading that is a little below halfway on the scale (my best readings have never exceeded 3/4 of scale even when the Dish is reading 100/100). I get a solid and stable picture and sound, but no program information. The program title is the same for current and future programs, which is just Univision digital program.

Hope this helps. Wish I knew why the Samsung was having difficulty with this station, it usually does much better than the Dish receiver in picking up weaker signals.

Thanks for all of the responses. I'll work on the program information. There was a script written to just loop the same info because the data connection to the old location was very unreliable. I should be able to fix that now.

Yesterday I did the geometry and figured out that my antenna needs to aim up 3.35 degrees (approximately) to be pointed directly at the edge of Green Mountain that the signal is using as a waterfall. My signal for KCNC didn't change, because I was already aiming up at about half that.

I also checked the connections inside the box on the antenna, and they were solid. I had already straightened the one that was bent, and it seems to have been making good contact.

When I put it back on, I also did another test for post-switchover. I removed the splitter closest to my TV (I have 2 splitters in-line) and ran it directly into the digital tuner. The signal strength on KCNC improved to 77-79%, so it looks like I'll get a decent gain when I don't need that last splitter.

Someone had asked me about signal lock, and I've seen discussions about low quality locking. I've noticed that my tuner will lock on a broadcast at 25% with minimal pixelation on a 480i picture. Once the 480i signal drops to about 11-15%, it becomes unwatchable, and below 10% it's just a black screen.

I do have another couple of questions. Is it best to point directly at the edge or is a little above or a little below better? How much signal loss comes from a cable connector (female/female to connect two cables) rather than a splitter? I could only assume that it would be much less loss than a splitter.

My experience capturing weak signals off a ridge-line about a mile from my house and the logic of exposing the most elements on an antenna to pick up a horizontal wave is that pointing directly at the edge or a hair over it will give you the best shot at the strongest signal.

Signal loss from a barrel type cable connector is negligible. Of course the quality of the connector has some impact, but very little. I'm prone to overkill so I've changed out all the cable connectors in my system (wall plates are just cable connectors also) to 3 GHz tested ones. Still, connector loss (less than -0.5 dB) is no big deal, particularly compared to splitter loss (-3.5 dB). Don't worry about it.
http://www.techtoolsupply.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=860

However, your experience with the splitter tells me that my gut feeling about a pre-amp for you may be spot on. Since you are getting a strong signal from KCNC, I wouldn't overdue a pre-amp, but the Winegard HDP-269 may be just right for you.

http://www.winegard.com/offair/pdf/WC-809%20%20HDP-269.pdf

In doing the above, I noticed all of my signals from LOM are way down again. This morning, I had KCNC in the 90's, it's now at 74, KMGH won't lock while KUSA and KTVD are in the low 60's now with lots of dropouts. I just wish the transition would come and get over with. When the stations will have only digital, perhaps this BS of constantly changing signal strengths will finally come to an end.

I too see the signal strength variations though the day from the LCG tower stations on LOM. However, the change is usually small for KUSA and KTVD, while the KCNC change is the most dramatic (falling off to the high 60s sometimes from the mid-80s at others). KMGH has been mostly steady in the mid to high 80s, but every so often it is down in the high 70s. KCNC is the only one where I've actually lost lock and signal.

So you aren't the only one that sees significant swings in signal strength from the LCG LOM tower. My other DTV stations pretty much stay at the same level all the time, with the exception of KWGN, which I've commented on in this thread before.

KCEC has started broadcasting from Lookout on low power. Construction is under way for the move to full power but won't likely be completed until very close to the cutover date. I would be interested to hear what areas can and can't see this signal. It is only a 500 W transmitter.

This is what I receive in NorthEast Longmont near 17th and Pace:

50.1 does not make it here 1/12/2009 ~ 11 AM.

Channel Call Sign Recptn
34 = 2.1 KWGN-DT 95
35 = 4.1 KCNC-DT 93
18 = 6.1 KRMA-DT 0
17 = 7.1 KMGH-DT 90
16 = 9.1 KUSA-DT 93
38 = 12.1 KBDI-DT 64
15 = 14.1 KTFD-DT 89
43 = 59.1 KPXC-DT 77
19 = 20.1 KTVD-DT 94
21 = 22.1 KFCT-DT -30
29 = 25.1 KDEN-DT 78
29 = 29.3 ? 77
32 = 31.1 KDVR-DT 93
19 = 40.1 KRMT-DT 95
51 = 50.1 KCEC-DT -35
43 = 59.1 KPXC-DT 77

The minus reception numbers vary from 0 to ... (e.g.: 0-35) and do not 'lock'
Channel 29.3 on channel 29 is unidentified and appears to be in Spanish?

KRMA-DT 6.1 is still AWOL.

From CEB II:
I too see the signal strength variations though the day from the LCG tower stations on LOM. However, the change is usually small for KUSA and KTVD, while the KCNC change is the most dramatic (falling off to the high 60s sometimes from the mid-80s at others). KMGH has been mostly steady in the mid to high 80s, but every so often it is down in the high 70s. KCNC is the only one where I've actually lost lock and signal.

I think this variance in signal strength is caused by work on LOM. I look at several other treads in this HDTV Forum and I don't see others in other locales seeing what we're seeing here in terms of signal variation, not considering tropo and E-skip, neither of which we get much out here in the west due to our low humidity.

Posted by cia_viewer:
Channel 29.3 on channel 29 is unidentified and appears to be in Spanish?

That's KDEN. My kitchen LCD also picks it up at 29.3 for some reason - bad PSIP info, I presume.

Posted by towermonkey:
I don't think they have the ability to turn down a direction. Also, the antenna is so high above the building that there should be no RF problem there. I have heard that there is some work going on with the antenna, but I don't know details.
I thought there was something like 5 panels on the LOM antenna and that ERP could be varied among them, giving stations' their directional signal patterns. If not, any explanation you can offer on how directional signals are radiated would be helpful.

I'm still not getting 50-1 on any of my receivers this AM even though I noticed Gakon posted he is and is probably not too far from me.

Also, are there any plans for KCEC to send out English on a second audio stream? If not, why not, if you know?

There may be that ability with that antenna, but usually the patterns are tested in a chamber and preset to match the necessary cardioid pattern using the panels and splitters. I have heard that there were pattern problems that they are still working on, but no details as we aren't part of that group.

As far as I know, there is no English audio available on the Univision stream, but that is a really good question. Why not? I'll run the idea up the chain and see what happens.

As far as I know, there is no English audio available on the Univision stream, but that is a really good question. Why not? I'll run the idea up the chain and see what happens.

A few years ago, I asked the manager of a Telemundo station in California about this, and he said that his network would have to pay a big premium to carry an English soundtrack for its movies. That's a pity, since movies on most Spanish-language channels are of significantly greater interest to me than what's on most English-language stations.


Jim McCauley

I removed the splitter closest to my TV (I have 2 splitters in-line) and ran it directly into the digital tuner.

I don't recall, but I think this is the first time that you mentioned you had splitters in the line. Are they both 2-way, one 2 and one 4, or perhaps both 4-way? A good 4-way has 7db loss while a good 2-way has 3.5db loss. Two 4-ways would have 14db loss. Each 3db is a 50% reduction in signal. 10^1.4=25, so signal with no splitter would be 25 times stronger than going through two 4-way splitters. 10^0.7=5, so signal with no splitter would be 5 time stronger than signal with two 2-way splitters.

How much signal loss comes from a cable connector (female/female to connect two cables) rather than a splitter? I could only assume that it would be much less loss than a splitter.

Correct, connectors are minimal. You should remove both splitters and replace with connectors to see if you don't get all LOM signals. Then add in splitter as needed, and add preamp to compensate.

Laura,
BTW, how do you connect to the Inernet? If via cable, then all of your locals are provided for free in HD (in most Denver markets). You just need to add a splitter to the cable line coming into your modem and connect to your tv. In my market (N boulder), however, comcast doesn't provide 4 or 7 in HD, so pay or OTA is the only way. 4 and 7 HD are found on comcast 50 and 51 (I think) in most other Denver markets.

I don't recall, but I think this is the first time that you mentioned you had splitters in the line. Are they both 2-way, one 2 and one 4, or perhaps both 4-way? A good 4-way has 7db loss while a good 2-way has 3.5db loss. Two 4-ways would have 14db loss. Each 3db is a 50% reduction in signal. 10^1.4=25, so signal with no splitter would be 25 times stronger than going through two 4-way splitters. 10^0.7=5, so signal with no splitter would be 5 time stronger than signal with two 2-way splitters.



Correct, connectors are minimal. You should remove both splitters and replace with connectors to see if you don't get all LOM signals. Then add in splitter as needed, and add preamp to compensate.

Dang, I didn't realize how much loss there was across a splitter.

I thought I described my setup back when I was doing the rabbit ears in the attic...

So here's what I have:
- Winegard 7694 antenna
- coaxial cable from the attic to the crawlspace
- splitter 1 in, 2 out (for splitting to my cable modem when I had comcast)
- coaxial cable from the crawlspace to the back of the TV
- splitter 1 in, 2 out (to be able to get signal into both of my tuners
- coaxial cables from that splitter to the TV
- TV with 2 tuners.

The difference when I had the rabbit ears in my attic was that the Winegard antenna in the list above was replaced by 2 sets of rabbit ears with cables going to a splitter that connected to the coaxial from the attic.

The connection in the crawlspace is because my townhouse is wired for satellite, cable, and now antenna, and that's the place where I switch between the three. The reason it's a splitter and not a single connector is because when I had comcast, I had a cable modem, and I had it splitting in the crawlspace. Now I can't seem to find any of my single connectors.

Does radio shack carry those connections that CEB mentioned above?

Laura,
BTW, how do you connect to the Inernet? If via cable, then all of your locals are provided for free in HD (in most Denver markets). You just need to add a splitter to the cable line coming into your modem and connect to your tv. In my market (N boulder), however, comcast doesn't provide 4 or 7 in HD, so pay or OTA is the only way. 4 and 7 HD are found on comcast 50 and 51 (I think) in most other Denver markets.

I think I mentioned this before too, but that was several pages ago... dang this thread is big. I was with Comcast, but I decided that paying $130/mo for the few channels that I watched (no premiums at all) just wasn't worth it. So I dropped Comcast, got Qwest DSL, and decided to go for OTA tv since I mainly watch the news and very few shows anyway.

I'm saving about $90/mo by doing that.

I received an email from a television engineer friend who lives near Nashville TN. He monitors all the DTV actions for a column he writes (TV News) in the WTFDA monthly journal, Vhf-Uhf Digest. I am simply copying and pasting his remarks here regarding KRMA-DT 6, with no editing or additional commentary.

"The first application has been filed, by KRMA-6 Denver for channel 47 in Fort Collins. Although the FCC has not yet acted on this application, they have assigned the call letters K47LY-D. (though in many places the station is listed with the same KRMA-DT call letters as the main station it's to translate)

Again, "Replacement translators" are those used to extend a DTV station's coverage into areas where its analog facility reached, but where the digital doesn't. They receive priority processing - they don't have to wait for the next LPTV window."

--
(Doug Smith W9WI - Pleasant View, TN EM66)

Does radio shack carry those connections that CEB mentioned above?

Not the exact ones, but the ones you get at RS should be fine. Model: 278-213 or Model: 278-219.

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103459

Does radio shack carry those connections that CEB mentioned above?

RS doesn't carry the pre-amp he mentioned. The lowest-priced HDP-269 pre-amp I've found online is at a1components (http://www.a1components.com/itemdisplayn.aspx?item=10387), about $43 shipped. CEB's pre-amp advice is spot-on -- most others, including those sold by RS, are likely to overload. Overload means lost channels.

From your description of the coax wiring, it sounds as if you may be using only one output from the crawl-space splitter. If so, replace that splitter with a barrel connector. In addition to normal losses mentioned earlier, an unused splitter port "leaks" RF, causing even more signal loss. You may discover that you don't need a pre-amp after all.

Posted by mrradiohead:
The first application has been filed, by KRMA-6 Denver for channel 47 in Fort Collins. Although the FCC has not yet acted on this application, they have assigned the call letters K47LY-D. (though in many places the station is listed with the same KRMA-DT call letters as the main station it's to translate)
One would think that the remapping problem, if there is one, involving this translator could be avoided if it remaps to 47-1? Since the translator has a call sign, it probably also has the unique identifier (TSID?) that would allow it to remap to 6-1?

Fill in translators are held under the same license and bound to the full-powered station they're repeating. And the ATSC spec says that translators should map to the same major channel number as the station they're repeating, unless it causes conflicts with a different station being translated from the same location. (Like in southwest Utah, where there's KCSG 4-1 and KTVX 4-1)

- Trip

So here's what I have:
...
- TV with 2 tuners.

Hmm. This caused me to look at the manual for your tv. I thought maybe you had 2 tuners to allow PiP or something, but actually your 2 tuners are 1-digital ATSC/cable and 1-Analog. Your tv manufacturer supplied you with a 2-way splitter to feed both inputs. Get rid of this splitter and only feed the digital (lower) connector (at least for now). You wont need the analog input after transition anyway - except to feed from vcr/dvd.... but you should use other, better, input for that anyway. Now you should have no spliters in your line and pre-amp probably not necessary.

Dang, I didn't realize how much loss there was across a splitter.

I thought I described my setup back when I was doing the rabbit ears in the attic...

So here's what I have:
- Winegard 7694 antenna
- coaxial cable from the attic to the crawlspace
- splitter 1 in, 2 out (for splitting to my cable modem when I had comcast)
- coaxial cable from the crawlspace to the back of the TV
- splitter 1 in, 2 out (to be able to get signal into both of my tuners
- coaxial cables from that splitter to the TV
- TV with 2 tuners.

The difference when I had the rabbit ears in my attic was that the Winegard antenna in the list above was replaced by 2 sets of rabbit ears with cables going to a splitter that connected to the coaxial from the attic.

The connection in the crawlspace is because my townhouse is wired for satellite, cable, and now antenna, and that's the place where I switch between the three. The reason it's a splitter and not a single connector is because when I had comcast, I had a cable modem, and I had it splitting in the crawlspace. Now I can't seem to find any of my single connectors.

Does radio shack carry those connections that CEB mentioned above?

Finding the 3 GHz connectors at a local store can be a challenge even though Dish and DirecTV require them for all of their HD DBS installs. I got mine on-line (bought a package of them). The barrel connectors at Radio Shack, Home Depot, Lowes, or Best Buy will be fine. They are typically 1 GHz rated, which covers the OTA frequency spectrum. However, if you see a 1.5 GHz or higher rated connector in the store, I'd buy it instead since it generally will be of higher quality.

If you have reason to maintain a switchable connection in your crawl space, Radio Shack sells a manual, high isolation, coax/RF switch for a ridiculously high price of $16.49.

Hmm. This caused me to look at the manual for your tv. I thought maybe you had 2 tuners to allow PiP or something, but actually your 2 tuners are 1-digital ATSC/cable and 1-Analog. Your tv manufacturer supplied you with a 2-way splitter to feed both inputs. Get rid of this splitter and only feed the digital (lower) connector (at least for now). You wont need the analog input after transition anyway - except to feed from vcr/dvd.... but you should use other, better, input for that anyway. Now you should have no spliters in your line and pre-amp probably not necessary.

Good catch. I was wondering about her having 2 tuners to feed myself, but I didn't remember which HDTV she said she had.

Laura, sounds like you might be able to make a straight shot from your antenna to the your HDTV with the help of a couple of barrel connectors. Since you may be on the ragged edge of full reception without a pre-amp, a couple of other things are also important. First, don't have any more cable length than you absolutely need. Second, try to make every piece of that coax cable run RG-6, not RG-59. Losses in RG-59 are substantially higher than RG-6, so minimize signal loss.

Try all those changes and let us know what channels you get. Good luck.

Now that you mention it, I seem to remember something about that with the RF. Now that I'm hearing it from another source, it's likely true. I may even be able to get into the upper 80s for KCNC and hopefully I'll be able to lock the other stations when I get home tonight.

The radio shack on my way home has the barrel connectors in stock, so I'm going to make a stop by there. I prefer to buy local if I can, which was why I asked about Radio Shack. :)

There may be that ability with that antenna, but usually the patterns are tested in a chamber and preset to match the necessary cardioid pattern using the panels and splitters. I have heard that there were pattern problems that they are still working on, but no details as we aren't part of that group.

As far as I know, there is no English audio available on the Univision stream, but that is a really good question. Why not? I'll run the idea up the chain and see what happens.

Tried watching KCEC-DT for a little while (audio muted) and I noticed that the PQ was extremely dark on successive shows I watched compared to any of the other OTA DTV channels I receive. Just a heads up.

If I can get all of the stations with the two barrel connectors, then I won't need the analog. But if I can't I'll need the analog until the transition. After that if I still can't get all of the digital, then I'll research which amp to get.

I'll post my results this evening (maybe after bowling). I hope that they are good results. There was one point very early on that my tuner got 9 stations with a single indoor antenna sitting on the first floor right beside the TV. Only 5 of the stations were usable (KCNC was around 15%), but it tuned them. I think that was a day or two before my first post on this thread.

I really really really hope that all the stations switch regardless of whether they're allowed to continue on analog.

Anyone else notice KRMA-DT's signal seems to be down in strength today?

I was thinking perhaps reflections off snow on Mt. Morrison, but at least this morning it was about half the level I normally see from them.

No issues with any of the Lookout signals, though.

Thanks for all of the responses. I'll work on the program information. There was a script written to just loop the same info because the data connection to the old location was very unreliable. I should be able to fix that now.

I ran a full rescan of OTA channels on my Samsung LNT3253H and that captured 50-1 with full video and audio. Signal strength is 7 bars out of 10. Video is still comparatively dark. No program information; just Univision Digital Program.

Anyone else notice KRMA-DT's signal seems to be down in strength today?

I was thinking perhaps reflections off snow on Mt. Morrison, but at least this morning it was about half the level I normally see from them.

No issues with any of the Lookout signals, though.

No, KRMA-DT has been about the same as always all day today (i.e., about 70%; 73/100 on my Dish ViP211).

So, am I going to need to replace my current UHF-only 40" Yagi antenna with a combo UHF/VHF design next month in order to continue to receive our locals in HD?

So, am I going to need to replace my current UHF-only 40" Yagi antenna with a combo UHF/VHF design next month in order to continue to receive our locals in HD?

Not necessarily. It will depend largely on your location.
I use a DB4 in my attic. A UHF antenna. It picks up analog 7 & 9 with a signal strength of 100%, although the picture is filled with static due to reflections. I suspect that once 7 & 9 digitals go to 7 & 9 I shouldn't have a problem due to the signal strength I am currently receiving but time will tell. If LOM stations lower their output power then I might have an issue. Simply because the antenna wasn't specifically designed for upper VHF doesn't mean it won't pick up channels in those frequencies. It can depending on location. At my location it works. Remember the coat hanger antennas on cars?
So you may want to wait before adding a VHF antenna.

Ok, I've removed both splitters, and replaced the one in the crawlspace with a barrel connector, the one behind my TV is going directly into my digital tuner (no splitter or barrel connector. It also turns out that the cable in my crawlspace heading to my TV is bad... I couldn't get signal on KUSA with the old one, but I switched it, and 9.1 tunes at 30%, and I get 2.1 too (still need to get a better one, it's RG59, not RG/6).

The results:

Callsign (net)|Station (dtv)|Path|Signal %|Effective ERP
KWGN-DT (CW)|34 (2.1)|2Edge|25%|
KTFD-DT (Telefutura)|15 (14.1)|LOS|71%|197kW
KRMA-DT (PBS)|18 (6.[123])|1Edge|77%|14kW
KCNC-TV (CBS)|35 (4.1)|1Edge|77%|868kW
KDVR (Fox)|32 (31.1)|2Edge|65%|322kW
KUSA-DT (NBC)|16 (9.[12])|1Edge|30%|24kW


More info later... gotta go bowling.

I get 29-1 and 50-1 on my old SIR T-150 (1st gen) here in Lafayette. I get 3 bars, enough to be stable. I get most of the LCG stations at 6-7 bars as a comparison.

+1 on the wishing spanish language station would carry English SAP. I too find those stations always seem to have interesting movies on.

Posted by Trip In Va:
Fill in translators are held under the same license and bound to the full-powered station they're repeating. And the ATSC spec says that translators should map to the same major channel number as the station they're repeating, unless it causes conflicts with a different station being translated from the same location. (Like in southwest Utah, where there's KCSG 4-1 and KTVX 4-1)
Appreciate the post, but I'm not sure it addresses the questions I posed. You're the expert, so perhaps you could shed some additional light on this.

I assume that the source of your post was ATSC Standard 65-C, Annex B, Pg 89-90, item 10. Does that (it doesn't appear to) infer that the repeater channel 47 must contain an exact duplicate of KRMA DT-18's PSIP? Or does it merely have to remap to 6-1?

After the transition, KZCO and KLWY will both probably be remapping to 27-1. I can receive both of the analogs if I orient my antenna "just right". If you look at their digital coverage maps, locales such as Longmont & Mead, CO, as examples, will probably be able to receive both channels. Will that cause conflicts that will require one of them to remap to a different channel?

I thought the unique TSID (correct reference?) allowed ATSC tuners to differentiate all channels, no matter what they remapped to. Is this not correct?

Posted by gkanders:
+1 on the wishing spanish language station would carry English SAP. I too find those stations always seem to have interesting movies on.
By "interesting", you aren't referring to some of eye candy women in these movies, are you?:D

Posted by Trip In Va:

Appreciate the post, but I'm not sure it addresses the questions I posed. You're the expert, so perhaps you could shed some additional light on this.

I assume that the source of your post was ATSC Standard 65-C, Annex B, Pg 89-90, item 10. Does that (it doesn't appear to) infer that the repeater channel 47 must contain an exact duplicate of KRMA DT-18's PSIP? Or does it merely have to remap to 6-1?

After the transition, KZCO and KLWY will both probably be remapping to 27-1. I can receive both of the analogs if I orient my antenna "just right". If you look at their coverage maps, locales such as Longmont & Mead, CO, as examples, will probably be able to receive both channels. Will that cause conflicts that will require one of them to remap to a different channel?

I thought the unique TSID (correct reference?) allowed ATSC tuners to differentiate all channels, no matter what they remapped to. Is this not correct?

It's correct, but... it's complicated.

Let me disclaim myself, I'm not 100% certain about this stuff, but this is my understanding of how it came to be.

Basically, the standard was written with the assumption that there would be a single primary transmitter and then translators would not overlap with the main signal. The DTS service and the fill-in translator service with potential overlap were not taken into consideration.

Stations can translate a signal cheaply by simply shifting from one frequency to another without adjusting the transport stream in any way. The FCC has basically assumed that stations would do exactly that, and every translator I have seen is doing exactly that. I have output from W08EE-D in Martinsburg WV, and if not for the physical channel number being different, the stream is identical to WNPB, the station it is repeating. In order to adjust the TSID, my understanding is that additional equipment would have to be installed to change that data, which drives up the cost of the translator.

As you imply, the spec doesn't specifically address this situation, but the FCC hasn't actually set the final policy on the matter since the exact rules for the fill-in service are still up in the air. I was reading comments today (08-253) about it and stations are pushing for not having to change the TSID. The theory is that DTS would treat the duplicate signals as multipath, and for translators that receivers should be able to tell that even though the TSID is identical, the physical channel is different and handle it appropriately. Whether or not that works out in practice is another story. I, personally, wouldn't count on it.

As for KZCO and KLWY, they will have different TSIDs and different physical channels, so a properly designed tuner should handle the mapping. Some will not.

Basically, to sum it all up, while it's not laid out in the spec (as far as I can tell), it's how it's been implemented.

Again, if any of that turns out to be incorrect, I apologize. This starts to get outside of my area a bit. I have a very hard time making it through those specifications without falling asleep on my keyboard. :p

- Trip

CSI is only avail. in SD on OTA & D*. Anybody know what the prob is?

I just spoke to a KCNC engineer. If what I understood what he said, they put the SD transport stream up in error. At a commercial, the next or the next, next, they will insert the HD feed. They were aware of the problem and were working on it when I called.

In my coversation, I was joking with the engineer that this probably won't happen when analog is shut off. He laughed and said I hope so.

Ok, I've removed both splitters, and replaced the one in the crawlspace with a barrel connector, the one behind my TV is going directly into my digital tuner (no splitter or barrel connector. It also turns out that the cable in my crawlspace heading to my TV is bad... I couldn't get signal on KUSA with the old one, but I switched it, and 9.1 tunes at 30%, and I get 2.1 too (still need to get a better one, it's RG59, not RG/6).

The results:

Callsign (net)|Station (dtv)|Path|Signal %|Effective ERP
KWGN-DT (CW)|34 (2.1)|2Edge|25%|
KTFD-DT (Telefutura)|15 (14.1)|LOS|71%|197kW
KRMA-DT (PBS)|18 (6.[123])|1Edge|77%|14kW
KCNC-TV (CBS)|35 (4.1)|1Edge|77%|868kW
KDVR (Fox)|32 (31.1)|2Edge|65%|322kW
KUSA-DT (NBC)|16 (9.[12])|1Edge|30%|24kW


More info later... gotta go bowling.

Good for you. Looks like you are making good progress toward receiving all of the major DTV channels.

Ok, the "more info" that I have is really another question.

I was able to get another 20 points per channel signal by changing the RG59 cable with a TF6 cable. What is a TF6? How does it compare to RG6? I'm going to search for some more RG6 before I pull it through the hole in the floor, but if I can't, will TF6 work?

Right now the only stations that I don't get that I'd like to get are 7.1 (KMGH-TV - ABC) and 20.1 (KTVD-DT - My20), so I feel like I'm in pretty good shape.

Not necessarily. It will depend largely on your location.S. Lafayette
I use a DB4 in my attic. A UHF antenna. It picks up analog 7 & 9 with a signal strength of 100%, although the picture is filled with static due to reflections. I suspect that once 7 & 9 digitals go to 7 & 9 I shouldn't have a problem due to the signal strength I am currently receiving but time will tell. If LOM stations lower their output power then I might have an issue. Simply because the antenna wasn't specifically designed for upper VHF doesn't mean it won't pick up channels in those frequencies. It can depending on location. At my location it works. Remember the coat hanger antennas on cars?
So you may want to wait before adding a VHF antenna.Thanks.

Ok, the "more info" that I have is really another question.

I was able to get another 20 points per channel signal by changing the RG59 cable with a TF6 cable. What is a TF6? How does it compare to RG6? I'm going to search for some more RG6 before I pull it through the hole in the floor, but if I can't, will TF6 work?

Right now the only stations that I don't get that I'd like to get are 7.1 (KMGH-TV - ABC) and 20.1 (KTVD-DT - My20), so I feel like I'm in pretty good shape.

I don't know what TF6 cable refers to and I can't find a reference on-line. The closest that I found was that some RG-6 coaxial cable is refered to as F6 cable. Anyway, here are some links regarding coax cable. Prepared lengths of RG-6 from Rat Shack or Lowes work fine.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coaxial_cablehttp://
See the Standards list in the foregoing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RG-6http://

http://www.bluejeanscable.com/articles/rg6.htm

The biggest advantage of RG6 over RG59 comes from the much larger diameter center conductor. That's the main thing that will reduce line loss when you replace RG59 with RG6.

When you have all the cabling just right and you still don't receive KMGH and KTVD, try moving the pointing azimuth of your antenna a few degrees left and right again. With the other changes you've made, you may need a slightly changed antenna azimuth to get those other channels. Given the readings you are currently getting, I'd use KUSA (16, 9-1) as the channel to try to increase signal reading on. If re-pointing your antenna slightly increases KUSA-DT, that might get you KMGH and KTVD also.

So, am I going to need to replace my current UHF-only 40" Yagi antenna with a combo UHF/VHF design next month in order to continue to receive our locals in HD?

Probably. While those with a bay type UHF antenna like a CM4228 or a DB4 or 8 can usually pick up high VHF channels, Yagi type UHF antennas generally won't pick up those channels. You can try, your UHF Yagi antenna provides essentially zero gain in VHF service.

Probably. While those with a bay type UHF antenna like a CM4228 or a DB4 or 8 can usually pick up high VHF channels, Yagi type UHF antennas generally won't pick up those channels. You can try, your UHF Yagi antenna provide essential zero gain in VHF service.What I'm really kinda getting at is...are some our HD local stations still going to be moving to VHF next month or will the transition be delayed?

What I'm really kinda getting at is...are some our HD local stations still going to be moving to VHF next month or will the transition be delayed?
It depends on what congress does. If they do nothing or pass legislation to allow more coupons to be issued, but leave transition alone (such as legislation drafted by Rep. Edward Markey, D-Mass., to allow the Commerce Department to immediately begin distributing coupons for digital converter boxes), on Feb 18, 2009 we can definitetly expect to see KUSA-DT on 9 and KMGH-DT on 7. KBDI-DT should be on 13, if all goes well.

If congress bows to the Obama team and the complainers, then they may craft legislation to delay transition. At this point, I don't think very many people know for sure what would be in such legislation. If new legislation forced KUSA and KMGH to keep their analog stations on the air, obviously they could not move the digital broadcast.

The current FCC chairman has taken a position. He has urged congress not to delay transition. The 2 previous chairmen have urged a delay. Of course, former chairmen don't have to live with the mess that I believe a delay would create.

What I'm really kinda getting at is...are some our HD local stations still going to be moving to VHF next month or will the transition be delayed?

Ask these people; it's in their hands:

DC Phone DC FAX Electronic Correspondence
Senator Ken Salazar (D- CO) 202-224-5852 202-228-5036 http://salazar.senate.gov/contact/email.cfm
Senator Mark Udall (D- CO) 202-224-5941 202-224-6471 Senator_Mark_Udall@markudall.senate.gov
Representative Diana DeGette (D - 01) 202-225-4431 202-225-5657 http://www.house.gov/formdegette/zip_auth.htm
Representative Jared Polis (D - 02) 202-225-2161 202-226-7840 https://forms.house.gov/polis/contact-form.shtml
Representative John Salazar (D - 03) 202-225-4761 202-226-9669 http://www.house.gov/salazar/contact.shtml
Representative Betsy Markey (D - 04) 202-225-4676 202-225-5870 https://forms.house.gov/betsymarkey/contact-form.shtml
Representative Doug Lamborn (R - 05) 202-225-4422 202-226-2638 http://lamborn.house.gov/ZipAuth.aspx
Representative Mike Coffman (R - 06) 202-225-7882 202-226-4623 https://forms.house.gov/coffman/contact-form.shtml
Representative Ed Perlmutter (D - 07) 202-225-2645 202-225-5278 http://perlmutter.house.gov/IMA/issue_subscribe.htm

Posted by kucharsk:
Anyone else notice KRMA-DT's signal seems to be down in strength today?

I was thinking perhaps reflections off snow on Mt. Morrison, but at least this morning it was about half the level I normally see from them.
My signal strength was the same today, 75/100 on my E* ViP222. KRMA is the most stable signal I receive, hardly ever varies in strength.

As an aside, all of my LOM signals are back to normal today. Could it be that it was too cold and snowy to work on LOM so the ERP got turned back up?

As an aside, all of my LOM signals are back to normal today. Could it be that it was too cold and snowy to work on LOM so the ERP got turned back up?

The inverse for me, in ways; I haven't seen the signals from Lookout change at all since KCNC-DT fixed theirs Jan. 2 or so.

This is what I receive in NorthEast Longmont near 17th and Pace:

50.1 does not make it here 1/12/2009 ~ 11 AM....

I am in the same general location. I did a quick channel scan last night and did not get a lock on 50.1. I didn't check the signal strength, sorry.

Here in Louisville, the situation has improved for several stations in the past couple of weeks:
KUSA is coming in strong again
KCNC is stronger again
KRMA is slightly better - still weak but now watchable
KCEC (50.1) is finally coming - weak but watchable
of course we still can't get KBDI, but hopefully that will change in Feb, when they move to a different channel (13), get more power, and move higher up on their antenna)

More KBDI news (from their website). Transition from 38 to 13 may happen before the cutoff date....

"Prior to February 17, 2009, KBDI will move to its permanent channel assignment on DTV channel 13"

But their analog 12 transmitter just went down, so they're working on getting it back up. It seems like they should just make the switch now, like Grand Junction KRMA did...
http://www.rmpbs.org/content/index.cfm/fuseaction/showContent/contentID/521/navID/475
Kind of strange that all these transmitters have been going out lately - Lookout, KRMA Grand Junction, and now KBDI.

For Boulder:
"KBDI plans to have a digital translator in Boulder by mid-to-late 2009. At that time all three of our free digital over-the-air channels will be available in the areas currently served by our channel 11 analog translator."

So, am I going to need to replace my current UHF-only 40" Yagi antenna with a combo UHF/VHF design next month in order to continue to receive our locals in HD?

If you've been satisfied with the way the Yagi works, and it's not very old, you won't necessarily need to trash it if it doesn't pick up the VHF-high digitals. Add a VHF-high antenna and join it to the UHF Yagi using a UVSJ combiner that will send all signals down to your TVs on one coax cable. Separates always outperform combo antennas. An AntennaCraft Y5-7-13 (60" boom, 36" max. width) is a Red zone Yagi that should work well in most of the area. A Y5, second balun, UVSJ and a short length of RG-6 should cost $40 or so shipped.

Two antennas mounted on the same mast should be separated by at least three feet.

If you've been satisfied with the way the Yagi works, and it's not very old, you won't necessarily need to trash it if it doesn't pick up the VHF-high digitals. Add a VHF-high antenna and join it to the UHF Yagi using a UVSJ combiner that will send all signals down to your TVs on one coax cable. Separates always outperform combo antennas. An AntennaCraft Y5-7-13 (60" boom, 36" max. width) is a Red zone Yagi that should work well in most of the area. A Y5, second balun, UVSJ and a short length of RG-6 should cost $40 or so shipped.

Two antennas mounted on the same mast should be separated by at least three feet.

Excellent suggestion and it is true that separates do a better job and, in some cases, are easier to fit in a tight space (less overall boom length, though more vertical space needed).

Also, something I've found useful is to use UHF/VHF separators on the signals off each antenna. I strip the unwanted signal from each antenna and send it to null, then combine the wanted signals. As I noted before, I'm prone to over-kill, but this reduces the chance that my digital tuners will have to sort through any out-of-phase duplicate signals, no matter how weak.

In the past, I actually had signals from two different antennas, pointed in different directions, cancel a relatively strong DTV signal when combined (phase difference). One antenna was receiving directly and the other was picking up on a side bounce way out of its beam-width. In that case I had to fix the phase difference because I needed UHF from both antennas at the time. But, if you only need VHF from one antenna and UHF from the other (part of my current configuration), it helps some to get rid of the extra, out of phase, UHF and VHF signals. Just a suggestion and probably more beneficial to attic installs versus roof installs.

BTW, my KCNC signal this morning is again at all time lows (mid--60s). My other LCG tower signals are down a little for KUSA and KTVD, while KMGH is doing fine in the mid-80s.

Please transition don't be late!

BTW, thanks kuckarsk for the links. I emailed my 3 to express my desire that DTV transition not be delayed and that they just vote more dollars for the CECB program.

Also, something I've found useful is to use UHF/VHF separators on the signals off each antenna...

IIRC, a UVSJ by itself attenuates out-of-band signals by 30 dB or so... But now you've got me interested. Exactly how did you you strip spurious signals from the VHF and UHF antennas? Two additional UVSJs with terminators? And how did you fix the phase issues between the two UHF rigs?

I'm wondering because WPXC-DT 59.x is tough to get here as it's 65 degrees away from LOM. I'd like to pull it in without using a JoinTenna if possible, because insertion loss likely means using two preamps, which I want to avoid. Re-aiming to "split the difference" doesn't work well. Current setup, for reference: An AntennaCraft Y5-7-13 VHF-high (surprise!) combined on a UVSJ with a DIY DB4 clone for UHF, both pointing at LOM. They're in the attic, 22 feet AGL, no pre-amp and 55 feet from one tuner. We're LOS to all LOM towers at 23 miles, as well as to Morrison and Squaw; KPXC is 32 miles and 1-edge, 10 feet below LOS. KPXC does come in reliably if I aim right at it.

I also use a Winegard CA-8800 to strip FM and feed a stereo receiver with good results, even if the Y5 isn't designed for FM (but is quarter wave for that band).

Posted by cia_viewer:

That's KDEN. My kitchen LCD also picks it up at 29.3 for some reason - bad PSIP info, I presume.

They were 25.1 ???

We were watching our TiVo recording of KMGH-DT 7-1 World News with Charles Gibson.
At the very beginning, There was a loud staticy ratchet sound for a short time.
When it stopped, I noticed the screen width went from full (on our HDTV) to a narrower width. This has happened on other evenings.

IIRC, a UVSJ by itself attenuates out-of-band signals by 30 dB or so... But now you've got me interested. Exactly how did you you strip spurious signals from the VHF and UHF antennas? Two additional UVSJs with terminators? And how did you fix the phase issues between the two UHF rigs?

I'm wondering because WPXC-DT 59.x is tough to get here as it's 65 degrees away from LOM. I'd like to pull it in without using a JoinTenna if possible, because insertion loss likely means using two preamps, which I want to avoid. Re-aiming to "split the difference" doesn't work well. Current setup, for reference: An AntennaCraft Y5-7-13 VHF-high (surprise!) combined on a UVSJ with a DIY DB4 clone for UHF, both pointing at LOM. They're in the attic, 22 feet AGL, no pre-amp and 55 feet from one tuner. We're LOS to all LOM towers at 23 miles, as well as to Morrison and Squaw; KPXC is 32 miles and 1-edge, 10 feet below LOS. KPXC does come in reliably if I aim right at it.

I also use a Winegard CA-8800 to strip FM and feed a stereo receiver with good results, even if the Y5 isn't designed for FM (but is quarter wave for that band).

Regarding a UVSJ, you are correct if you are referring to something like the Pico Macom UVSJ UHF VHF Band Separator/Combiner. http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=UVSJ Sorry I missed the acronym or it just didn't register when I read the post.

To separate the UHF from the VHF off my UHF/VHF combo antenna, I use a Winegard CS-7750. http://www.winegard.com/offair/couplers.htm
They don't seem to be available anywhere now and they were ridiculously priced anyway. The inexpensive and available substitute is the Pico Macom UVSJ Separator/Combiner. The Pico Macom has a slightly higher insertion loss, but it is a whole lot cheaper and it is available.

I run the combo antenna's signal output into the CS-7750 about a foot from the balun. I route the VHF signal off the CS-7750 into a Rat Shack hybrid combiner/splitter, where it is joined with the amplified output of my Winegard PR-9018 yagi type UHF antenna (no signal stripping off the PR-9018 because I tested it for VHF and it doesn't receive squat). The output of that RS hybrid combiner is currently the main antenna feed for my whole house (using some downstream splitters and DC Blocks). The UHF signal off the CS-7750 I route via coax into a 10 dB attenuator with a 75-ohm terminator on the end (this is my null). I think it works because I don't see any evidence of UHF in my signal that is supposed to be just VHF.

Regarding the phase issue between the two UHF antennas, that was my problem when I was trying to get a signal from the KMGH-DT coat hanger downtown and get the stations, analog and digital, from LOM, Mt. Morrison, and whatever they call the mountain that KBDI broadcasts from. I had my Antennas-Direct 91XG with CM7775 pre-amp pointed directly at KMGH (about 120 magnetic from me). The 91XG also picked up a lockable signal from KDVR-DT (about 211 magnetic from me), but didn't pickup KWGN-DT or a reasonably clear picture for any of the UHF analog stations. I set up my "no-name", 5-foot UHF/VHF combo antenna with CM7777 pre-amp, to point at LOM and get those missing digital and analog channels. I only amped the UHF signals from LOM as the VHF had plenty of signal strength to handle all the splitters and tuners in my system.

Anyway, I fed the two antenna outputs into a Rat Shack hybrid combiner/splitter and mostly it was a success, except for KDVR-DT. While I could get about 80/100 for them from the 91XG and +90/100 from the combo, when I combined them I got zilch. Found out that meant a severe out-of-phase problem. The quick and dirty fix that often works, and worked for me, was to simply reverse the balun connection on one of the antennas. I did that on the combo antenna and the problem was solved. When KMGH-DT moved to RP and upped their ERP I was able to re-aim my 91XG to about 130 magnetic, which allowed it to pick up a fairly strong signal for all the DTV channels of concern. At that point I ended the combining of the signals and ran the combo antenna's signal down a separate coax to provide a source for the analog channels.

Some of my other channels also showed some evidence of out-of-phase when I had these two antenna UHF outputs combined (i.e., less signal strength from the combined source than from one of the sources), but they still had good, lockable signals, so no other action was warranted. It is only when the phase problem is so severe that the signals cancel each other that the balun connector flip is warranted and typically effective.

I like your AntennaCraft high-VHF antenna and am thinking of getting one once we get to Transition.

Posted by Trip In Va:

Appreciate the post, but I'm not sure it addresses the questions I posed. You're the expert, so perhaps you could shed some additional light on this.

Thought you'd like to see this comment regarding it.

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retrieve.cgi?native_or_pdf=pdf&id_document=6520193410

- Trip

Ok, the "more info" that I have is really another question.

I was able to get another 20 points per channel signal by changing the RG59 cable with a TF6 cable. What is a TF6? How does it compare to RG6? I'm going to search for some more RG6 before I pull it through the hole in the floor, but if I can't, will TF6 work?

Right now the only stations that I don't get that I'd like to get are 7.1 (KMGH-TV - ABC) and 20.1 (KTVD-DT - My20), so I feel like I'm in pretty good shape.

I have not heard of TF6 cable, nor does a quick Google search come up with anything. Where di you get the TF6? As was mentioned the stuff from Lowes, Home Depot, or RS that you can buy in specific lengths with connectors on ithem are fine for short lengths (less than maybe 100 fgeet, but at that lenght I have used RG11anyway)). Now that you have some useable signal, maybe you can tweak the antenna a bit. You are doing much better now than a couple of days ago! :)
You tried other places in the attic before, but apparently you werent getting much signal to the tuner through all of those splitters and the bad coax. It is a pain, but you might find a place that is better. It is a game of inches;)

Good Luck!



Phil

More KBDI news (from their website). Transition from 38 to 13 may happen before the cutoff date....

"Prior to February 17, 2009, KBDI will move to its permanent channel assignment on DTV channel 13"
...
I have seen a number of places that seem to refer to the 2-17-09 date in a way that makes it sound like the analog stations need to be off the air by that date, under the existing rules. I have read in some places that the analog stations can still be operational at 11:59PM on 2-17-09.

I wonder if a PR person at KBDI may have written this based on the interpretation that the analog must be off by 2-17-09?

Does anybody know for sure which interpretation is right (off by 2-17-09 or off by 2-18-09), according to the current law?

Also, according to the current law, does anyone know when an analog station, that has indicated it would stay in service until transition, can go off the air without notice to and/or approval from the FCC?

Tried watching KCEC-DT for a little while (audio muted) and I noticed that the PQ was extremely dark on successive shows I watched compared to any of the other OTA DTV channels I receive. Just a heads up.

Thanks! Should be right now.

Posted by Trip in VA:
Thought you'd like to see this comment regarding it.

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/r...ent=6520193410
Thanks for the link, Trip. It certainly addresses the question I raised.

I really didn't care for the rationale in the document. There was a post on this thread (I checked back about 6 pages but couldn't find it) about the difficulty someone had in tuning KMGH when they did a test on RF 7. Apparently, KMGH was sending the same signal (PSIP) to both it's STA on RF 17 and the test on RF 7 and a tuner had a problem with it. Rather than deal with situations like this (the document didn't mention any tests performed to see if tuners treated this situation as multipath that could be corrected), the CEA is more concerned with costs to the stations than with the unfettered ability of the public to receive translater signals with no problems. Is it really that expensive to insert a small amount of code into a PSIP stream with a call sign, channel ID, etc? It's not like it's constantly changing - program it in once and it's done. KDVR has been doing it for KFCT (probably because KFCT is a full power station, but that's not the point).

If viewers within the translator's range, RF 47, also receive the full power signal, RF 18, and their tuner can't handle it, I'm wondering if KRMA would be precluded from inserting PSIP info into the RF 47 stream to differentiate it from RF 18. That would defeat the purpose of the translator for some.

Posted by cia_viewer:
Quote:
Originally Posted by milehighmike
Posted by cia_viewer:

That's KDEN. My kitchen LCD also picks it up at 29.3 for some reason - bad PSIP info, I presume.

They were 25.1 ???
My kitchen LCD ATSC tuner picks up KDEN on both 25.1 and 29.3

Posted by kenavs:
I have seen a number of places that seem to refer to the 2-17-09 date in a way that makes it sound like the analog stations need to be off the air by that date, under the existing rules. I have read in some places that the analog stations can still be operational at 11:59PM on 2-17-09.

I wonder if a PR person at KBDI may have written this based on the interpretation that the analog must be off by 2-17-09?

Does anybody know for sure which interpretation is right (off by 2-17-09 or off by 2-18-09), according to the current law?

Also, according to the current law, does anyone know when an analog station, that has indicated it would stay in service until transition, can go off the air without notice to and/or approval from the FCC?

From the Third Periodic Review...... dated 12-31-07:

Full-power television broadcast stations must cease broadcasting in analog as of the transition date (i.e., February 17, 2009), as required by statute; see 47 U.S.C. § 309(j)(14).

Stations may file a notification to permanently reduce or terminate analog or pre-transition DTV service within 90 days of the transition date (using FCC Informal Application Form)

I believe the above are the current "rules". Analog must be shut off effective 12-18-09. Stations can terminate analog without permission as of right now since we are within 90 days of transition.

If you want a copy of the document, PM me and I'll send it to you.

towermonkey,

I watched about 15 minutes of KCEC tonight beginning about 11:00. It appeared to be some type of comedy show that had busty babes and old guys pretending they were in school.

The signal came in 5 points over what I need to lock (65/100) and remained solid. Everything looked fine and I didn't see any pixelation, dropouts, etc. You must have made some adjustments today.

I have not heard of TF6 cable, nor does a quick Google search come up with anything. Where di you get the TF6? As was mentioned the stuff from Lowes, Home Depot, or RS that you can buy in specific lengths with connectors on ithem are fine for short lengths (less than maybe 100 fgeet, but at that lenght I have used RG11anyway)). Now that you have some useable signal, maybe you can tweak the antenna a bit. You are doing much better now than a couple of days ago! :)
You tried other places in the attic before, but apparently you werent getting much signal to the tuner through all of those splitters and the bad coax. It is a pain, but you might find a place that is better. It is a game of inches;)

Good Luck!



Phil
At this point, I'm quite happy with my signals. I'm getting enough stations that when I want to sit and watch TV, I have a decent enough choice to be satisfied. And if I don't want to watch anything that's on, I'll do something else. :)

I picked up a 16ft RG6 cable at Radio Shack this evening, so it's running across my living room floor at the moment. Tomorrow evening I'll go ahead and run it in its permanent path. After that I need to finish painting my bathroom...

As for the TF6 cable, I don't really know where I got it, but it's a relatively new cable (compared to others I've collected over the years), and the RG6 didn't seem to make a difference on my signals, so I'm guessing it may be something comparable just not using the standard nomenclature. It has an AWG info group similar to what I see on CAT5 cables.

(TF6 - T10 FILE NO E86650 CATV (UL) 6 SERIES 18 AWG)

But now that I look at it closer I can't tell if it's TF6 or TFC on the first bit. It's not printed on the cable, it's pressed into the jacket, and white on white is pretty hard to read.

I'll probably play a little with my antenna this weekend. I need to make its attachment a little more permanent than just balancing it on the rafters. :D

When I got home this evening, CW (KWGN) was at about 50% signal, but at some point during the evening it dropped back down to around 30-35%. I've noticed that with a 1080i signal, it starts to pixelate at about 25-30% signal and lock is completely lost below 15-20%.

...
As for the TF6 cable, I don't really know where I got it, but it's a relatively new cable (compared to others I've collected over the years), and the RG6 didn't seem to make a difference on my signals, so I'm guessing it may be something comparable just not using the standard nomenclature. It has an AWG info group similar to what I see on CAT5 cables.

(TF6 - T10 FILE NO E86650 CATV (UL) 6 SERIES 18 AWG)

But now that I look at it closer I can't tell if it's TF6 or TFC on the first bit. It's not printed on the cable, it's pressed into the jacket, and white on white is pretty hard to read.
...
Based on several Google results, your 2nd theory seems to be correct. That was TFC, not TF6, and it is an RG6 cable. There is an indication that it was popular with cable companies.

Since towermonkey is monitoring this forum, I thought I'd report that currently KCEC-DT is sending alternating STT (system time packets) that change the value of the gps utc offset from 0 to 14 and back. Instead of alternating I guess it is possible that there are two time sources being inserted.

Anyway, if that can be fixed, consider setting the utc offset to 15, which is the new correct value, rather than 14, due to the new leap second that was inserted at the end of 2008. You can be the first Denver station to get this right :)

I believe the above are the current "rules". Analog must be shut off effective 12-18-09. Stations can terminate analog without permission as of right now since we are within 90 days of transition.
...
Thanks for the info.

Since congress cannot act instantaneously, it sounds like any station that wanted to could turn off their analog, if congress got close to changing the law. I presume congress would have to wait till the Obama inauguration to even try, since Bush opposes changing the date. I presume Bush would sign any bill that just increased the available Coupons.

An attempt to change the law could actually have the reverse of the intended effect. If they try to delay turnoff by 2 or 3 months, they could get some stations turning off a month earlier than they would have.

A station like KBDI would probably not like to continue to power 2 transmitters any longer than they absolutely have to. They may not even have the money available to do it. They begged for the switch from 38 to 13 so that they could use less power to get comparable coverage, and save on their utility bills.

I've never known KWGN to do anything but blast in, so it does sound like you have an antenna issue.

I've never been to get KWGN over digital. I have exactly one place I can point my antenna to get both ABC and CBS simultaneously. I have spent a fair amount of time on my roof with a compass.


I plan to replace the roof antenna and install a pre-amp after the transition. The joys of Boulder's geography. Big rocky things in the way:-)

We were watching our TiVo recording of KMGH-DT 7-1 World News with Charles Gibson.
At the very beginning, There was a loud staticy ratchet sound for a short time.
When it stopped, I noticed the screen width went from full (on our HDTV) to a narrower width. This has happened on other evenings.

More details: All of our TV reception is OTA. I watched the HD-TiVo recording again on our 1080 HD TV. The overpowering noise lasted for 4 seconds. The corresponding screen width change might be more accurately described as HD => SD? This happened once again later in the program after a commercial break (~ 5:55pm for 7 seconds).

Their analog broadcast did not have the same problem.

The noise, but not the picture width change was also recorded on our TiVo-2 through our Zenith DTT901.

More KBDI news (from their website). Transition from 38 to 13 may happen before the cutoff date....

"Prior to February 17, 2009, KBDI will move to its permanent channel assignment on DTV channel 13"

But their analog 12 transmitter just went down, so they're working on getting it back up. It seems like they should just make the switch now, like Grand Junction KRMA did...
http://www.rmpbs.org/content/index.cfm/fuseaction/showContent/contentID/521/navID/475
Kind of strange that all these transmitters have been going out lately - Lookout, KRMA Grand Junction, and now KBDI.

For Boulder:
"KBDI plans to have a digital translator in Boulder by mid-to-late 2009. At that time all three of our free digital over-the-air channels will be available in the areas currently served by our channel 11 analog translator."

So anywhere from 4 to 10 months without KDBI. Wonder how much of a hit their fundraising will take till they get it up and running.

From Pam Osborne, public relations director for RMPBS:
Rocky Mountain Public Broadcasting Network, Inc.
1089 Bannock Street
Denver, CO 80204

In re: Special Temporary Authority Request of:
Rocky Mountain Public Broadcasting Network, Inc.
Channel 47, Fort Collins, CO
Temporary Call Sign: K47LY-D
BDRTET-2009017AIL
BLSTA-20090107AIU
Fac. ID #: 14040

Gentlemen:
This is in reference to your request for Special Temporary Authority to
operate the above-captioned low power television or television translator
station.

In light of the facts set forth therein, your request for Special
Temporary Authority IS HEREBY GRANTED to operate the station in accordance

with the specifications in the above application. This authority is
conditioned upon the avoidance of interference to any existing facilities.
This authority expires July 12, 2009.

Sincerely,
Hossein Hashemzadeh
Associate Chief
Video Division
Media Bureau

cc: Todd D. Gray, Esquire

Looks like it's gonna happen! The dates are not nailed down, but it's possible that the translator could be in place on Horsetooth Mountain by 17 February.

When they fire that puppy up, I'm sending a check to RMPBS. Assuming that the service and coverage are good, I hope that others on this forum will consider doing the same.

Yeehaaaa!

Minor cautionary note: If improvements are made to the Mount Morrison facility, it's possible that some areas will be able to receive BOTH channels 18 and 47 -- both of which may be mapped to 6-x. How tuners handle TSID and mapping data may be important under those circumstances.


Jim McCauley

I like your AntennaCraft high-VHF antenna and am thinking of getting one once we get to Transition.

Many, many thanks for all the details!

The Y5 is a decent little antenna at a rock-bottom price. Outdoor durability is something of a concern, but it's fine in an attic. Its narrow width makes it really easy to maneuver and point. Of course, it's only providing FM until the transition, but I picked it up last year so as to avoid any post-transition antenna shortages. It's actually aimed at KBDI-TV, which is crystal clear; KUSA and KMGH analog, being 10 degrees away, have very, very minor ghosting.

Since congress cannot act instantaneously, it sounds like any station that wanted to could turn off their analog, if congress got close to changing the law...

An attempt to change the law could actually have the reverse of the intended effect. If they try to delay turnoff by 2 or 3 months, they could get some stations turning off a month earlier than they would have.

It most certainly could -- especially if the bill before Congress was an amendment to the legislation that established the transition date. There might be a mad dash to shut off analog under the original law before the president signed the bill, even if the amendment compelled suspension of the regs allowing early termination without prior approval.

I can almost hear Kevin Martin repeatedly whispering the words "bureaucratic nightmare!" into the ears of Congressional leaders and transition-team members.

Yeehaaaa!

Minor cautionary note: If improvements are made to the Mount Morrison facility, it's possible that some areas will be able to receive BOTH channels 18 and 47 -- both of which may be mapped to 6-x. How tuners handle TSID and mapping data may be important under those circumstances.


Of course doesn't this mean you'll have to install a second antenna assuming whatever you have pointed at LOM can't pick up 47?

Of course doesn't this mean you'll have to install a second antenna assuming whatever you have pointed at LOM can't pick up 47?

I don't know. Mount Morrison, where KRMA's infamous "icebridge antenna" is located, is some distance south of LOM, while Horsetooth is way, way north. John Anderson, chief engineer at RMPBS, says that the transmission patterns of the main station and the translator have some degree of overlap, mainly from Longmont to Greeley.

I'm really just guessing here, but I think that the closer you are to the Front Range, the more you will need a second antenna, because the angle between LOM and the fill-in translator will be greater. Of course, that might help, actually, because you can zero your main antenna in on LOM and ignore Mount Morrison -- I think.


Jim McCauley

I hope Hawaii's transition goes smoothly...

http://tech.yahoo.com/news/ap/20090114/ap_on_hi_te/tec_digital_tv_transition_1

*fingers crossed*

I hope Hawaii's transition goes smoothly...

Thanks for the link. In addition to Wilmington, NC, and now all of Hawai'i, there are a handful of markets that are already all-digital:

Fort Myers, FL
Fort Wayne, IN
Santa Barbara, CA
Utica, NY
Billings, MT
Jackson, TN
Harrisonburg, VA
Lafayette, IN
Parkersburg, WV
Zanesville, OH
Victoria, TX

Only 11 of 210 markets, but it's a start! Source: Trip in VA's rabbit ears.info (http://www.rabbitears.info/dtr.php)

When they fire that puppy up, I'm sending a check to RMPBS. Assuming that the service and coverage are good, I hope that others on this forum will consider doing the same.
Jim McCauley

I will!

I sure hope my Lookout-pointed antenna will pick them up without re-orientation, though.

I can get the current RMPBS signal part of the time with my DTVPal DVR. I do wonder what the common channel mapping will do.

Mark

Those markets aren't "all digital." They're markets which would be suitable to go digital because the stations are all already on their final channels. There won't be any cases like KUSA/KMGH/KBDI where stations are moving channels on the transition date.

- Trip

I do wonder what the common channel mapping will do.

Not sure -- it may depend on how your hardware is programmed.

Here is what John Anderson, chief engineer at RMPBS, has to say about it:

One of the great uncertainties is always how each manufacturer of
receivers chooses to implement their conflict resolution programming.

While there may be instances where the coverage patterns overlap most
receivers will give preference to the stronger signal.
In the case of our pending translator; the predictive coverage patterns
minimally overlap over Greely and Longmont, however because of the
terrain and the different power levels of the transmitters there should
be no problems.

The coverage pattern on the FCC website is drawn from the data
extrapolated by the pattern of the antenna, the gain figure of the
antenna and the transmitter output power.
Thus it gives an idealized blanket TRANSMIT pattern without taking into
account terrain or other factors that may affect RECEPTION such as
buildings, trees (summer or winter), or reflections that may cause
multipath errors.

The short answer is we should be fine and don't anticipate any problems.

So... we'll see.


Jim McCauley

The only positive side to delaying the transition I can see would be the satisfaction of knowing that the scare folks will have to stare out their windows at those darn analog towers just a few more months than they otherwise would have.

I still don't think that's worth delaying the transition though.

-Glen

I sure hope my Lookout-pointed antenna will pick them up without re-orientation, though.

Mark

If you were able to pickup channel 11-DT when they were on the air, you may be able to get KRMA 47 since the antenna coordinates are nearly the same for both antennas.

However, reduced signal strength from the side may be a problem as I think 11 had a fairly strong signal.

Fortunately, those towers are only 7 miles and 15 degrees off axis for my Yagi UHF antenna. The strongest signal I currently receive is from KPXC-DT (59.x) and it is 40 miles and 23 degrees off axis.

I too will support them once more when I get a picture that can be watched without getting eye strain, but my eye Dr. may see a reduction in revenue.:)

Those markets aren't "all digital." ...

Thanks for bringin' me up short, Trip. I'll 'fess up: Didn't read the note at the top of the list closely enough.

Minor cautionary note: If improvements are made to the Mount Morrison facility, it's possible that some areas will be able to receive BOTH channels 18 and 47 -- both of which may be mapped to 6-x. How tuners handle TSID and mapping data may be important under those circumstances.


Jim McCauley

I already just barely get 18 and 24, wonder if this will be a 3rd signal I will get intermittently. KCEC is coming in at 76% for me. I wish KRMA had put up one good tower instead of 2 iffy ones and one to be determined.

Did anyone see Ch.9's story on DTV last might? They still couldn't get everything clear as to why some are not getting good reception. I was OK but they failed to mention VHF v's UHF ant's. + the freq. change for some stations & only briefly talked about waiting untill full power.

http://www.9news.com/life/programming/shows/evenings/article.aspx?storyid=107777&catid=510

I can get the current RMPBS signal part of the time with my DTVPal DVR. I do wonder what the common channel mapping will do.
Mark

I have a slightly different worry - I get my program guide data from Directv
on my HD Tivo, and I hope they update their data to include the translator.
If they don't, I could have a great signal I can't easily use :-(

Of course, there are already bugs in the off-air channels info in the guide. Is
anyone else with Directv service interested in pointing these errors out to Directv?

Rob T

Did anyone see Ch.9's story on DTV last might? They still couldn't get everything clear as to why some are not getting good reception. I was OK but they failed to mention VHF v's UHF ant's. + the freq. change for some stations & only briefly talked about waiting untill full power.

http://www.9news.com/life/programming/shows/evenings/article.aspx?storyid=107777&catid=510

I saw parts of it. I liked how they talked about their competitors too. And also mentioned 9 being on low power and 4 was on high power now (I think that is what I heard)

Many, many thanks for all the details!

The Y5 is a decent little antenna at a rock-bottom price. Outdoor durability is something of a concern, but it's fine in an attic. Its narrow width makes it really easy to maneuver and point. Of course, it's only providing FM until the transition, but I picked it up last year so as to avoid any post-transition antenna shortages. It's actually aimed at KBDI-TV, which is crystal clear; KUSA and KMGH analog, being 10 degrees away, have very, very minor ghosting.

Have you ever checked to see if your Y5 picks up any low end UHF channels?

Tried to watch Bush's Final Address tonight in HD. KMGH and KCNC OTA DTV were in SD. KCNC-DT OTA was HD, but the lip sync issue made it unwatchable. CNN-HD's PQ was crappy. Finally, I got KCNC-DT in HD with decent lip sync off my Dish locals in HD. Wonder why the KCNC-DT OTA had the severe lip sync problem, but what Dish used didn't have that problem.

Have you ever checked to see if your Y5 picks up any low end UHF channels?

Never tried that. I ordered the UVSJ at the same time, so the Y5 has always been hooked up to its VHF side. It's not awful on low band. FM stereo via the CA-8800 is clear and strong out to about 60 miles; channels 2, 4 and 6 analog, while a tad snowy and somewhat vulnerable to impulse noise, are watchable. With no amp, it runs circles around the amplified RS omni it replaced, from which 2 was all but unwatchable, 4 was bad and 6 was OK.

Tried to watch Bush's Final Address tonight in HD. KMGH and KCNC OTA DTV were in SD. KCNC-DT OTA was HD, but the lip sync issue made it unwatchable. CNN-HD's PQ was crappy. Finally, I got KCNC-DT in HD with decent lip sync off my Dish locals in HD. Wonder why the KCNC-DT OTA had the severe lip sync problem, but what Dish used didn't have that problem.

It was fine on KMGH 7.1. 'read my lips'

The loud ratchety noise was on the beginning of World News Wednesday night 'World News with Charles Gibson' for 8 seconds, but tonight was clean.

It was fine on KMGH 7.1. 'read my lips'

The loud ratchety noise was on the beginning of World News Wednesday night 'World News with Charles Gibson' for 8 seconds, but tonight was clean.

Are you saying that 7.1 went to an HD broadcast or just that their SD broadcast didn't have a lip sync problem. I quickly checked 7.1 and 9.1 OTA at the very beginning of the speech and both were in SD. I never went back to see if they "flipped the switch" to HD later.

Ch 9 reported tonight that a vote in Congress failed - I guess it was today - to delay the DTV transition. Congress will try to pass the delay AGAIN, next week.

Ch 9 reported tonight that a vote in Congress failed - I guess it was today - to delay the DTV transition. Congress will try to pass the delay AGAIN, next week.

Keep contacting your Representatives and Senators.
large numbers of opposed voters can make a difference.

That "sound" sounded just like the wheel on the Wheel of Fortune show which follows ABC World News.

Keep contacting your Representatives and Senators.
large numbers of opposed voters can make a difference.

I hate to be pessimistic, but I question how much good calls in Colorado will do. It sounds like only the Senate can possibly block a change, and I seriously doubt that either of our Senators would dare to vote against what Obama wants.

It's Udall's home territory that is one of the more affected - where the terrain starts to pick up, and where people are waiting for things to settle out so they can decide what to do next.
Salazar voted for the towers, so hopefully he'll do the right thing and add the funding, but not delay the transition.
However, I received an email back from Salazar that he's moving on to his new job. I would assume he'd continue serving as Senator until Obama's sworn in. But we may have some additional letters to send to Bennet once he takes over.

I hate to be pessimistic, but I question how much good calls in Colorado will do. It sounds like only the Senate can possibly block a change, and I seriously doubt that either of our Senators would dare to vote against what Obama wants.

"One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors."
Plato

About a week ago KDVR-DT FOX channel 31(32) appeared to be "off the air", as of today 1/18/09 I still have no reception of KDVR-DT. Has something changed to the DTV signal in the past 10 days? or did the wind mess up my antenna again. Chnl 31 is the only chanl that is missing, in the past KDVR-DT has been very consistent comming at a reative level of ~75 on my DTV PAL.

Please advise.

Thanks !

I'm getting it now, same as always.

About a week ago KDVR-DT FOX channel 31(32) appeared to be "off the air", as of today 1/18/09 I still have no reception of KDVR-DT. Has something changed to the DTV signal in the past 10 days?

I've noticed some fluctuation in their signal over the past week or so, but I've never completely lost it. I've also noticed major fluctuations in the signals for KWGN and KCNC as well. I just assumed that they were probably doing some tower maintenance or something.

Did anyone else see the commercial saying that KDVR and KWGN are putting up a new antenna, so some viewers may be unable to receive their digital broadcasts until August? I was surprised because I thought all of the local stations were pretty much good to go for the digital era with the exception of KRMA. I guess it's not just consumers who've been putting off the digital transition.

Posted by jamjar:
"One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors."
Plato
Ever watch Jaywalking on Leno? These people are actually eligible to vote.

Posted by Rick313:
Did anyone else see the commercial saying that KDVR and KWGN are putting up a new antenna, so some viewers may be unable to receive their digital broadcasts until August? I was surprised because I thought all of the local stations were pretty much good to go for the digital era with the exception of KRMA. I guess it's not just consumers who've been putting off the digital transition

KWGN never planned to have a fully constructed, full power facility by 2-17-09. Their excuse is that they can't move their antenna to the top of the tower until analog shutoff since their analog antenna sits on top of the tower now. They requested an extension to August 2009 with their initial Form 387 filing on 2-21-08. See http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/getattachment_exh.cgi?exhibit_id=676598

The same holds true for KDVR. Their Form 387 update filing on 10-21-08 states that they cannot go full power until they remove their analog transmitter equipment in their building because there isn't room for both digital and analog equipment. See http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/getattachment_exh.cgi?exhibit_id=694081

If the transition is backed up to June 2009, these stations will want extensions to December 2009 to get their full power digital facilities fully constructed.

IMO, the FCC really screwed up by allowing stations such as these to extend their digital buildout beyond 2-17-09. When the analogs are shut down and folks in the fringe areas cannot receive these stations because they are not at full power, you'll see a hell of lot more folks calling their Congress reps complaining than folks contacting them now to not extend the analog shutoff date. If KGWN and KDVR need six months to get up to full power after 2-17-09, they should have been required to shut off analog six months before 2-17-09 combined with a campaign by each station that advocated getting your coupons and digital converters up and running BEFORE 2-17-09.

Did anyone see the KTVD "Your Show" segment on DTV Sunday AM? It is on KUSA's website. On the show, an estimate was given that 100,000 (7%) households in the Denver DMA are not ready for the digital coversion. Are these people living in a cave? Shut off analog tomorrow. Best Buy, etc. will have 100,000 converter box customers in the next couple of days. They can even get 10% off at Circuit City's bankruptcy sale. Get this over with.

Rant done!

Posted by jamjar:

Ever watch Jaywalking on Leno? These people are actually eligible to vote.

They walk among us!!

I won't even comment on the sorry state of the American Electoral process.

Did anyone see the KTVD "Your Show" segment on DTV Sunday AM? It is on KUSA's website. On the show, an estimate was given that 100,000 (7%) households in the Denver DMA are not ready for the digital coversion. Are these people living in a cave? Shut off analog tomorrow. Best Buy, etc. will have 100,000 converter box customers in the next couple of days. They can even get 10% off at Circuit City's bankruptcy sale. Get this over with.

Rant done!

I watched the show. Unfortunately, I have some friends in the foothills (Evergreen and Conifer) who receive little OTA via analog and, even though they are "ready" for transition, will probably see even less once the transition occurs, and will have to go with cable or sat.

By the way, the 10% off at CC is probably off a marked up price (maybe even higher than MSRP). Don't be sucked in by the liquidators.

Posted by Rick313:


Did anyone see the KTVD "Your Show" segment on DTV Sunday AM? It is on KUSA's website. On the show, an estimate was given that 100,000 (7%) households in the Denver DMA are not ready for the digital coversion. Are these people living in a cave? Shut off analog tomorrow. Best Buy, etc. will have 100,000 converter box customers in the next couple of days. They can even get 10% off at Circuit City's bankruptcy sale. Get this over with.

Rant done!

It will be amazing the outcry that will occur when the switch is made. They will attack the government for doing this without any warning. It is amazing how ignorant some folks are on current events and technology.

I, frankly, will enjoy watching on the news and the papers the horror stories.

Posted by gakon:
By the way, the 10% off at CC is probably off a marked up price (maybe even higher than MSRP). Don't be sucked in by the liquidators.
I visited the Park Meadows area CC on Saturday. I know stores like Linens and Things put all of their merchandise that was on sale back to full price for their % off sales during their closing, in effect raising prices for liquidation, but I don't think CC did that. It looked like they kept sale prices - the signs were still up on TV's and computers - along with the 10% off signs. Some stuff, like DVD movies, were 30% off. They had about 50 converter boxes which were 10% off.

Posted by gakon:

I visited the Park Meadows area CC on Saturday. I know stores like Linens and Things put all of their merchandise that was on sale back to full price for their % off sales during their closing, in effect raising prices for liquidation, but I don't think CC did that. It looked like they kept sale prices - the signs were still up on TV's and computers - along with the 10% off signs. Some stuff, like DVD movies, were 30% off. They had about 50 converter boxes which were 10% off.

Good to know - thanks.

Some stuff, like DVD movies, were 30% off.

Interesting. Here at the Madison CC store, DVDs and Blu-rays were only 20% off. Even at 30% off, Amazon.com is better than that and there is no tax or shipping.

Now, when it is at 50% off, or more, then it might be worth looking.

Posted by mrvideo:
Interesting. Here at the Madison CC store, DVDs and Blu-rays were only 20% off.
Several different companies are handling the liquidation and each one can set it's own pricing policies. I guess that's why discounts apparently are different at different stores.

gakon's warning about liquidators is good advice. Know the before liquidation and competitor's prices before jumping on a liquidation discount. Way back when Fred Schmidt went out of business, you could almost make an offer and they sell it to you. Now, liquidation is big business and they work hard to maximize their return. You will seldom if ever see prices on boxed, quality items that are at "cost" or at a loss now a days.

Did anyone see the Channel 2 promo about no DTV until Aug., tonight? I missed the beginning but I thought it said something like, 2 & 31 are planning on combining their antennas on one tower and there will be no 2 or 31 OTA DTV until August.

I know that sounds crazy, but I'd swear that's what the spot said. Anybody else see it????

I saw it also, but took it to mean "not everybody" that gets an analog signal now will be able to get a digital signal until August.

They were pushing cable and satellite until then.

Did anyone see the Channel 2 promo about no DTV until Aug., tonight?

See this post (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=15592022#post15592022)

The commercial says that SOME customers may not be able to receive their digital signal until August. I assume that just includes people who currently do not receive their digital signal.

Thanks guys, I missed Mike's post. They had a weird graphic of both channels names feeding into one tower. I took that too literal I guess!

Thanks guys, I missed Mike's post. They had a weird graphic of both channels names feeding into one tower. I took that too literal I guess!

I think you heard it right, they plan to put both DTV broadcast antennas on one tower. What isn't clear is, which tower?

I wonder if this is just another step in the ultimate demise of KWGN.

Rick, I think you're right. I haven't seen the spot on KWGN, but it makes sense that they are probably telling their OTA analog viewers that when analog goes away, those who can't receive the digital signal now won't be able to until August.

As far as the tower, my guess it's KWGN's since their FCC filing specifically states they need to move their digital antenna to the top of their tower where their analog antenna is right now.

As a followup on my post about Circuit City, I went back to the store this afternoon (I'm looking for a USB hard drive but their prices are still higher than BB's sale prices). I did error on the discount for CD's & DVD's. They are 20% off, not 30%. The 30% off stuff includes TV cabinets and mounting hardware along with cables/cable supplies. They have a slew of overpriced Monster cables (it appears these are the only things not selling). I found a 2 way cable splitter for a mere $12.95 (less 30%) and, I couldn't believe it, a simple barrel connector for RG-6/RG-59 cable for $6.95 (less 30%). All of the laptops are sold out (except some of the displays), only a couple of desktops remained, and about 1/2 of the TV's are gone. I asked a sales rep when the next round of discounts would take place. He said stuff was flying out the doors, so not anytime soon.

As a followup on my post about Circuit City, I went back to the store this afternoon (I'm looking for a USB hard drive but their prices are still higher than BB's sale prices). I did error on the discount for CD's & DVD's. They are 20% off, not 30%. The 30% off stuff includes TV cabinets and mounting hardware along with cables/cable supplies. They have a slew of overpriced Monster cables (it appears these are the only things not selling). I found a 2 way cable splitter for a mere $12.95 (less 30%) and, I couldn't believe it, a simple barrel connector for RG-6/RG-59 cable for $6.95 (less 30%). All of the laptops are sold out (except some of the displays), only a couple of desktops remained, and about 1/2 of the TV's are gone. I asked a sales rep when the next round of discounts would take place. He said stuff was flying out the doors, so not anytime soon.

Apparently a lot of folks are ignoring the old axiom, "caveat emptor".

Can anyone confirm if KWHD/53 turned off its analog signal on 1/16, as was scheduled?

Thanks.

I was also pleasantly surprised to get some Denver locks while on a plane flight from San Diego to Chicago. Attached is a cap of KDVR/31. DTV on a plane is hit and miss (mostly miss), but it sure makes the flights go faster, just by the chase if nothing else. 53 was still online during my flight (12/21 - pic attached).

I just checked the two TV's I have that I can still tune to analog channels. Didn't have a wiff of channel 53.

I was also pleasantly surprised to get some Denver locks while on a plane flight from San Diego to Chicago. Attached is a cap of KDVR/31. DTV on a plane is hit and miss (mostly miss), but it sure makes the flights go faster, just by the chase if nothing else. 53 was still online during my flight (12/21 - pic attached).

You do know that operating any type of radio or TV receiver in flight is a violation of FAA regulations, right?

You do know that operating any type of radio or TV receiver in flight is a violation of FAA regulations, right?
And I've never heard a good reason those regulations. By that, I mean a plausible scenario for how the electronics in a battery-operated RECEIVER could interfere with aircraft operations, which scenario does not also apply to all the laptops, ipods, gameboys which ARE permitted. I can understand the prohibition on TRANSMITTERS, although I'd wager that half or more commercial flights every day end up carrying someone who forgot or doesn't know how to turn off the Wifi/Bluetooth transmitters on their laptop.

The only justifications I've ever heard ususally come down to "how can you prove it won't interfere", which is nonsensical.

And what's with not being able to turn on a GPS receiver, either? Like by doing so you're going to attract more radio waves towards the aircraft and make it more difficult to navigate? :rolleyes:

An FM radio receiver could screw with the air communications band immediately above 108 MHz, but that's all I'm aware of.

- Trip

And what's with not being able to turn on a GPS receiver, either? Like by doing so you're going to attract more radio waves towards the aircraft and make it more difficult to navigate? :rolleyes:Many airlines DO allow GPS receivers, and I've used mine several times. It's kind of cool to display an altitude of 10,000 meters and a speed of 900 km/hour.

The usual prohibitions at takeoff/landing still apply, and the flight captain has the discretion to ban them even if the airline alllows them.

An FM radio receiver could screw with the air communications band immediately above 108 MHz, but that's all I'm aware of.

- TripCan you explain how an FM receiver in row 18 might "screw with" the aircomm receiver in the cockpit? Does my having a TV screw with the reception in my neighbor's apartment?

Can you explain how an FM receiver in row 18 might "screw with" the aircomm receiver in the cockpit? Does my having a TV screw with the reception in my neighbor's apartment?

The 10.7 MHz beat frequency on one FM radio can affect another. And while it probably wouldn't cause a problem, I wouldn't want to find out the hard way.

Here's a fun experiment. Get two FM receivers. Tune one to a local station, let's say 107.5 for example. Get the other one, tune it 10.7 MHz down, in this case it's 96.8. Now put the two radios next to each other. Depending on the quality of the radios, how close they have to be and where they have to be will vary, but there will be a position where the 107.5 signal disappears.

- Trip

Last night I was watching the signal strength on channel 2.1 (my weakest station) which normally fluctuates between 25 and 35 percent strength. Last night I was receiving it between 40 and 55, so I decided to try a rescan and see if there were any more stations available. There were, and now I receive My20 (20.1) at 68% strength.

I haven't moved my antenna since the night that I angled it up just a tiny bit to aim straight at Green Mountain, so it appears that something on LOM is changing.

As far as the CW (2.1) fluctuation, it looks like their system is pulsing the signal or I'm receiving a pulsed signal. The strength goes to 55, then after a few seconds it drops to 45, then a few seconds later it drops to 43, then a few more seconds and it's at 40, then a few more seconds and it's all the way back up to 55. I don't think the wind was blowing last night, but it's weird that it wouldn't smoothly go up and down rather than the rhythmic slowly down then immediately back to the high number. Anyway, it was just a weird thing I noticed last night.

I haven't been posting my updates here, because I've been working on another project at home to get my computer connected to my TV, and after trying the S-Video out (which worked, but blurry) I finally got my HDMI from my computer to work properly. So now I have many more options without cable... Netflix, OTA, Fancast, and more. :)

Has anyone been experiencing very short breakups on KMGH-DT OTA every few minutes? This is usually most noticeable in the audio, but sometimes a few blocks in the video are visible also.

Most likely, this is a signal strength issue, but I thought I would ask. KMGH-DT and KTVD-DT are a little on the weak side of things from Ft. Collins (around 70 on the DTVPal DVR scale). Oddly, I seem to get KUSA-DT without many issues nowadays (appx. 80). Full-power KCNC is around 96 on the same scale.

I hope they don't delay the transition to full power.

Mark

Has anyone been experiencing very short breakups on KMGH-DT OTA every few minutes? This is usually most noticeable in the audio, but sometimes a few blocks in the video are visible also.

Mark

I have been seeing the same thing at my location since the sunday "incident" in November. Wind and warm temperatures seem to cause the issue to increase for me.

I'm waiting until the transition to make any changes to my antennas and pre-amp - the sooner the better.

9News has another article (Antennas 'the weak link' in DTV transition (http://www.9news.com/news/local/article.aspx?storyid=108266&catid=346)) on the transition.

The strength goes to 55, then after a few seconds it drops to 45, then a few seconds later it drops to 43, then a few more seconds and it's at 40, then a few more seconds and it's all the way back up to 55.

Laura, meter behavior like this suggests minor symptoms of multipath interference, where reflected signals arrive just before or after the main signal at your antenna. That's an indication of partial loss of signal lock, as the digital tuner began to have difficulty "deciding" which was the true KWGN signal.

Multipath is a common hazard of both attic installations and areas that depend on diffracted signals for reception, like yours. Re-locating the antenna might resolve this issue -- and it might also make matters worse on other channels. Probably best to leave well enough alone, particularly if there were no video pauses or breakups occurring as the meter reading fell.

Has anyone been experiencing very short breakups on KMGH-DT OTA every few minutes? This is usually most noticeable in the audio, but sometimes a few blocks in the video are visible also.

I've noticed this happening on the network feed, but not on local content such as 7News at 5 and 10. It's most likely signal issues between the network satellite and the station. They had a really bad audio sync problem for the entire first segment of "Nighltline" last night, for example. Other posters have described continuing problems recently with "ABC World News Tonight" as well.

Whenever something like this happens, I display the signal-level meter. If the level is steady and roughly "normal" for the time of day, the issue is with the station or network rather than the broadcast signal. During "Nightline" I observed a steady meter reading of 85/100; It's usually 85 to 87 at that time of night.

Laura, meter behavior like this suggests minor symptoms of multipath interference, where reflected signals arrive just before or after the main signal at your antenna. That's an indication of partial loss of signal lock, as the digital tuner began to have difficulty "deciding" which was the true KWGN signal.

Multipath is a common hazard of both attic installations and areas that depend on diffracted signals for reception, like yours. Re-locating the antenna might resolve this issue -- and it might also make matters worse on other channels. Probably best to leave well enough alone, particularly if there were no video pauses or breakups occurring as the meter reading fell.

Very interesting...

I've been reading some of the other people's digital tuner level required for lock (LRL), and I'm glad that my LRL is all the way down at 25%. (below that it gets blocky and even lower it pauses and cuts out).

9News has another article (Antennas 'the weak link' in DTV transition) on the transition.

Great... Another 9NEWS advertorial. :mad:

Has anyone been experiencing very short breakups on KMGH-DT OTA every few minutes? This is usually most noticeable in the audio, but sometimes a few blocks in the video are visible also.

Most likely, this is a signal strength issue, but I thought I would ask. KMGH-DT and KTVD-DT are a little on the weak side of things from Ft. Collins (around 70 on the DTVPal DVR scale). Oddly, I seem to get KUSA-DT without many issues nowadays (appx. 80). Full-power KCNC is around 96 on the same scale.

I hope they don't delay the transition to full power.

Mark

My Sony 32xbr6 experiences two or three short (10-15 second) loss of signal just after the top of each hour. This happens every morning with Good Morning America (at both 7 AM and 8 AM). It has happened with other network shows. Does not appear to happen with local broadcasts.

I also use a Phillips DVR and it records through the same periods, but the video can appear ragged during playback.

Can you explain how an FM receiver in row 18 might "screw with" the aircomm receiver in the cockpit? Does my having a TV screw with the reception in my neighbor's apartment?

As an airline Captain I can assure you that my colleagues and I would appreciate it if you would adhere to all of the FAA regulations pertaining to passengers while aboard our jets. These regulations exist for a reason. I'm fairly certain that you would most likely object if I were to ignore the regulations that I don't particularly care for, no? 'Nuff said.

I apologize if this has been asked and answered, but this thread is much too large for me to read the whole thing ...

Will any of the local stations be moving their DTV broadcast to VHF when the switchover takes place?

Reason I'm asking, I'm in a fringe area, in the foothills northwest of Longmont. I long ago abandoned my gigantic VHF/UHF antenna because it just wasn't durable, I was having to replace it every few years due to broken elements. When I got rid of it, I went to a 91XG or some such thing, a UHF-only Yagi that has much shorter elements, and I've been watching DTV only. This is much, much more durable than the old giant antenna, I've had no issues with it at all.

On edit: here's a pic of my UHF-only antenna:

http://pimages.solidsignal.com/TD-91XG_zoom.gif


So am I going to have to switch back to VHF/UHF antenna?

I apologize if this has been asked and answered, but this thread is much too large for me to read the whole thing ...

Will any of the local stations be moving their DTV broadcast to VHF when the switchover takes place?

Reason I'm asking, I'm in a fringe area, in the foothills northwest of Longmont. I long ago abandoned my gigantic VHF/UHF antenna because it just wasn't durable, I was having to replace it every few years due to broken elements. When I got rid of it, I went to a 91XG or some such thing, a UHF-only Yagi that has much shorter elements, and I've been watching DTV only. This is much, much better than the old giant antenna.

So am I going to have to switch back to VHF/UHF antenna?Three of the stations will be returning to VHF. Channels 7,9 and 12 will be going back to 7, 9 and 13.

Three of the stations will be returning to VHF. Channels 7,9 and 12 will be going back to 7, 9 and 13.

I am currently living in central Denver, just East of Washington Park. My antenna is UHF only. Anyone have a favorite combo antenna (not too huge) that you'd recommend? Thanks!

I am currently living in central Denver, just East of Washington Park. My antenna is UHF only. Anyone have a favorite combo antenna (not too huge) that you'd recommend? Thanks!Have you tried pulling in the current analog broadcasts of 7,9,12 with your "UHF only" antenna? That should give some indication as to whether you need to do anything at all.

So am I going to have to switch back to VHF/UHF antenna?

As stated in a previous post, 7, 9 & 12 are going to VHF.

A 7-13 VHF antenna combined with your UHF YAGI will work just fine.
Install the 7-13 VHF 3 or 4 feet below the UHF antenna and combine the signals before they go to the pre-amp if you have one.

I presently have a 30 year old 2-13 VHF combined with a Winegard YAGI that is about the same size as your antenna. I'll replace the old VHF after the switchover with a 7-13 VHF.

AntennaCraft and Winegard both make similar 7-13 Vhf antennas.

Here are links to these antennas.
Winegard 7-13 (http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=YA1713)

AntennaCraft 7-13 (http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=Y10-7-13)

A 7-13 VHF antenna combined with your UHF YAGI will work just fine.

Separate VHF and UHF antennas combined outperform a similarly-sized, "all-channel" antenna hands down.

Another attractive aspect of those "high-band" antennas is that they're nowhere near as wide as older-style Yagis -- about 36 inches versus as much as 110 inches. Those long elements, designed for reception of channels 2-6, won't be needed in this market after the transition.

Here's another AntennaCraft model: Y5-7-13 (http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=Y5-7-13), the Y10's smaller sibling, is very compact and suitable for Denver and suburbs. Viewers farther out are better off sticking with the antennas at jamjar's links.

VHF and UHF antennas can be combined on a reversed splitter, but with a great deal of signal loss. A UVSJ (http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=UVSJ) combiner has almost no loss, and doesn't cost any more than a splitter.

I apologize if this has been asked and answered, but this thread is much too large for me to read the whole thing ...

Will any of the local stations be moving their DTV broadcast to VHF when the switchover takes place?

Reason I'm asking, I'm in a fringe area, in the foothills northwest of Longmont. I long ago abandoned my gigantic VHF/UHF antenna because it just wasn't durable, I was having to replace it every few years due to broken elements. When I got rid of it, I went to a 91XG or some such thing, a UHF-only Yagi that has much shorter elements, and I've been watching DTV only. This is much, much more durable than the old giant antenna, I've had no issues with it at all.

On edit: here's a pic of my UHF-only antenna:

http://pimages.solidsignal.com/TD-91XG_zoom.gif


So am I going to have to switch back to VHF/UHF antenna?

Before you buy an additional antenna (high VHF), see if you get a fairly strong signal for analog channels 7 and 9 (7-0, 9-0) with your 91XG (don't worry about ghosts, just little or no snow). If so you may be able to get by without adding a high-VHF antenna or maybe just adding a VHF pre-amp. I have a 91XG in the attic, but it is pointed toward Castle Rock rather than LOM (about 90 degrees offset). I get nothing on channel 7 analog, but some signal on channel 9 analog, even though LOM broadcasters are in the null of this very narrow beamwidth antenna.

If no go for 7 and 9 with the 91XG, you'll need to add a high-VHF antenna. You could buy a UHF/high-VHF combo antenna, but the UHF side won't provide anywhere near the gain you currently enjoy with your 91XG.

Can anyone confirm if KWHD/53 turned off its analog signal on 1/16, as was scheduled?

Thanks.

I don't think anyone answered this question so, yes, KWHD/53 analog is gone.

I am currently living in central Denver, just East of Washington Park. My antenna is UHF only. Anyone have a favorite combo antenna (not too huge) that you'd recommend? Thanks!

If you want to keep it to just one antenna, this one is a UHF/high-VHF combo that is only a little over 5 feet in boom length. Ignore the picture, it is for the big brother of the HD 7694P.

http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=HD7694P

Wow, thanks for the responses!

I get pretty good reception off my 91XG for channel 9 analog, but not so much for channel 7 analog. I suspect I'm going to need a VHF-Hi antenna and combiner.

Any idea which is better for deep fringe, that Winegard or AntennaCraft? They're both advertised as 10 elements (although I only count 9 on the AntennaCraft pictures). The Winegard is 100" boom and the AntennaCraft is 120".

I don't get 12 digital here at all, and I only get 6 digital maybe 50% of the time. But the others (2.1/4.1/7.1/9.1/31.1) all come in solid. Sure hope this combiner doesn't cause much UHF loss, else I won't get 6 at all.

I haven't had any luck with antenna amplifiers. Every time I hook one up I seem to lose all or almost all my channels. I've tried the Radio Shack cheapo bullet style as well as the Antennacraft 10G201, same result.

My antenna feed does come in to a distribution amp as it's first point of contact coming into the house, though, since I have several tuners to feed. That most definitely is a good thing to have.

Anyway, thanks again, I'll start preparing ... although it now appears the changeover will get delayed. I find that annoying. I want all the digital broadcasts to go full power ASAP. Analog TV is so last-century!

Any idea which is better for deep fringe, that Winegard or AntennaCraft? ...

I haven't had any luck with antenna amplifiers. Every time I hook one up I seem to lose all or almost all my channels. I've tried the Radio Shack cheapo bullet style as well as the Antennacraft 10G201, same result.

Sounds like you've encountered two typical problems people have with antenna systems these days: Over-amplification and too much noise, either of which is enough to kill DTV reception. Together... well, you know the rest. Over-boosting can occur when using a pre-amp and a distribution amp together. Too much noise is a frequent hazard with RS amplifiers.

Up where you are, the Winegard YA-1713 is a much better bet. It's more durable, and it has a built-in balun, where the A/C model does not. That means their gain figures can't be compared without subtracting the insertion loss of the balun needed to connect the Y10-7-13 to coax cable. Assume it's 1.2 dB; it can be higher. Thus, average gain of the W/G is 9.85 dB; average gain for the A/C is 8.2 dB, and maybe less.

Connect the YA-1713 and the XG-91 to a UVSJ, and send the combined signal output down to the distribution amp. Together, these antennas are frequently recommended as an unbeatable deep-fringe solution.

If you still have issues after the transition (whenever that may be :mad: ), try this: Replace the distribution amp with a passive splitter, or set of splitters, having the number of F-ports you need for the house wiring. Then install a Channel Master 7777 pre-amp up at the antennas, and connect its power inserter just before the first split. Right now, some of your signal is being lost in the cable between the XG-91 and the distribution amp. A 7777 solves that issue, and its noise figure is very low. It also has separate inputs for VHF and UHF antennas, so a UVSJ isn't needed if you use this pre-amp. It has sufficient gain to replace the distribution amp as well.

Thanks for the suggestions.

Glad to hear the Winegard is the better choice, because from looking at the pictures, it appears to be built better. It's 20" shorter yet it has a reinforcing boom, where the Antennacraft has none. Seems like it should be stiffer.

I like the notion that these VHF-Hi antennas aren't as wide a regular full VHF antenna. That's always been the problem: real long antenna elements. They're flexible and they break off. I get a lot of birds landing on them, I suspect that may be contributing to the breakage. I just know that I'd buy a new VU-190 or similar and in a couple years I'd lose enough elements that the signal was degrading and I had to go get a new antenna. That was one of the big pluses to going to DTV, I got to put up an antenna that would last.

When I tried the aforementioned amplifiers, and saw how many channels I lost, I tried bypassing my distribution amp, thinking perhaps I was over-amplifying. I just took the feed out of the power injection unit straight to my TV (Sharp LC-45GX6U at the time). Still lost all but a couple channels. If I remember right, I could get 2.1 and 31.1 only.

I'm guessing they inject too much noise. I see that CM7777 is advertised as ultra low noise, maybe it'll work, I'll give it a shot. And if it does double duty as the combiner as well, it solves 2 problems at once.

Thanks again, you guys are really helpful.

Long ago, I tried the CM7777 and it also made things worse. YMMV.

Has anyone else lost the KUSA 9-1 and 9-2 signal OTA this evening.
I tuned in to watch the news at about 5:00 and had nothing. I got 9 from D* just fine. After the news, I checked signal levels. Everything else from LM, and even 12-x (which has been a problem since my main antenna is now sitting flat on my roof after our wind event of a few weeks ago) was at the strength that I expect. KUSA is MIA...zip, zero, nothing. Just curious as to whether I have something wrong here or if it is something on their end?

Phil

Has anyone else lost the KUSA 9-1 and 9-2 signal OTA this evening.
I tuned in to watch the news at about 5:00 and had nothing. I got 9 from D* just fine. After the news, I checked signal levels. Everything else from LM, and even 12-x (which has been a problem since my main antenna is now sitting flat on my roof after our wind event of a few weeks ago) was at the strength that I expect. KUSA is MIA...zip, zero, nothing. Just curious as to whether I have something wrong here or if it is something on their end?

Phil

I just checked and KUSA-DT is strange.
My Vizio VX32L and my Dish TR40 are both reporting No Signal. My Philips 42PF7320 which general exhibits the least sensitive tuner is bouncing between max signal strength with a solid picture, and extremely weak with no picture. I guess those dips to very weak levels are creating the No Signal situation for the other tuners.

I just saw the following on their web page.
9NEWS is having an issue ice on an antennae which is causing a problem with our signal. We hope to have the problem resovled shortly.
FYI: The above is a cut and paste of their message on the web page.

Long ago, I tried the CM7777 and it also made things worse. YMMV.

Maybe that's because CM designed it for fringe situations, like where zfmax lives. It's simply not built for most people within 35 miles of a TV transmitter. It overloads badly amid strong signals, especially those found in suburbs such as Aurora... and Englewood. :cool:

Maybe that's because CM designed it for fringe situations, like where zfmax lives. It's simply not built for most people within 35 miles of a TV transmitter. It overloads badly amid strong signals, especially those found in suburbs such as Aurora... and Englewood. :cool:
The CM7777 seems to work fairly well here in Louisville with my Radio Shack suburban rated antenna mounted in the attic and lots of passive splitters and long cable runs.
Lookout Mt: 18 Mi.
Mt Morrison: 22 Mi.
Squaw Mt: 28 Mi.

Has anyone else lost the KUSA 9-1 and 9-2 signal OTA this evening.

Phil

I was getting a lot of audio breakup on 7 and 9 so I just went back to analog.
I suspected that the weather was causing problems with my signal which happens frequently.

It sure would be nice if our washington friends would do something constructive instead of loading Obama's bailout with junk like contraception and delaying the pending switch to digital.

I noticed the breakups of the OTA KUSA digital signal during the news beginning about 5:30. I switched to the E* feed - same thing. Then I tried the E* feed of the analog - it was worse than the digital. E* takes the signal OTA, I believe D* has a direct feed - correct?

...It sure would be nice if our washington friends would do something constructive instead of ... and delaying the pending switch to digital.

I was really dissapointed to see that Senator Kay Bailey Hutchison decided to support the Rockefeller bill, and I left her a message with my main issue.

I don't really care, too much, if some of the analog stations stay on the air as long as ALL digital stations are required to move to their final assignments on Feb 18, 2009.

I could live with the analog stations that would not prevent those moves staying active for a while, such as 2, 4 and 6 here in Denver. I believe low VHF is being virtually abandoned in many markets. I generally have enough signal strength that I don't need the switch to Max coverage. I understand that others do, but I don't think the proponents of the chaotic delay care about that at all.

I really want the channel jumping to be over. I want to do one set of scans on Feb 18, 2009 and have it over with

I have no idea when KUSA, KMGH, and KBDI would make their moves if the delay happens the way it seems to be set up. I think KUSA and KMGH could do it whenever they want to between Feb 18 and June 12. I think KBDI has to wait for some other station to vacate 13, and that could happen at any time up to June 12, as the Rockefeller bill seems to be written

I am sure there are a lot of people who were planning to provide assistance to others, and who expected to get the job done on Feb 18. I am not sure how many will be willing to make multiple trips at dates that may be difficult to plan for. It is ironic that the delay may reduce the support available to those who are looking for help. The laws of unintended consequences are hard to avoid.

Has anyone else lost the KUSA 9-1 and 9-2 signal OTA this evening.
I tuned in to watch the news at about 5:00 and had nothing. I got 9 from D* just fine. After the news, I checked signal levels. Everything else from LM, and even 12-x (which has been a problem since my main antenna is now sitting flat on my roof after our wind event of a few weeks ago) was at the strength that I expect. KUSA is MIA...zip, zero, nothing. Just curious as to whether I have something wrong here or if it is something on their end?

I am back with info from here (though I saw the post about their antenna and ice). I guess the H20 has problems with intermittent signals. It just says
"0". THe DTT901 with silver sensor gets a signal then loses it... from about 75% to 5% (normally it is at about 80% steady). The Haupphauge 2250 gets it at about 25 db S/N (max is 30 DB)then no lock. The old Samsung TS360 D* box...it comes and goes from a decent lock to "searching for signal".

Interesting, is this what we have to look forward to ..half an inch of snow and no digital TV ?? Hopefully it is just growing pains with the "brand new" "Super Tower"..
:) :(

Phil

I talked to my Channel Master rep today and was able to have him send me the DB specs on the CM 4228HD. I know that a lot of people are skeptical about how the 4228 and 4228HD ability to bring in the high Vs. Well I can get 7,9 in analog and when KQCK 11-1 (digital RF11)is on the air it comes in just fine of the back side. Last weekend I raised my antenna 3 1/2' and now I'm at 24' to the center. It helped all of the signals a little bit, but the biggest gain was KRMA 6-1 it jumped a good 10% in signal.:) Which means it comes in steady with no break ups.

Senate agrees to delay transition...

http://www.tvweek.com/news/2009/01/senate_agrees_to_delay_digital.php

The Conifer Area Council proudly presents:

Kathy Hartman, Jeffco County Commissioner, 11AM to 12 Noon, today, 1/24/Sat, at the Safeway Center, in the freestanding Starbuck's below Chili's. If you have questions for her, that is.

I can't remember......was she a player for or against the LCG a year ago?

KQCK RF 11 came back on the yesterday. When I tuned in, it looked like even more
of a freak show than I'd last seen. They'd found an old Bollywood version of perhaps
a Tarzan movie that looked like it had been shot before 35mm film was invented.
The channel still didn't carry a mapping to their channel 33 frequency or call letters,
and my Dish receiver doesn't give me sound (my Directivo does, though). Later on,
there was a call-in talk show and then a music video request show. No guide info on
the planet appears to work, of course, since their RTN rupture. It's nice to confirm
that my VHF/UHF pre-amp does work, but I'm back to my UHF-only version until
there's something worthwhile on VHF. I'm embarrassed that this signal comes from
near Fort Collins.

Anyway, I just thought that since the channel is on the air again, I should let y'all
know so that you can try to tune it in - or lay down and avoid it.

Rob T

I just checked and I don't get any indication that KQCK is broadcasting.

nteresting, is this what we have to look forward to ..half an inch of snow and no digital TV ?? Hopefully it is just growing pains with the "brand new" "Super Tower"..KUSA is moving to VHF channel 9 at the transition. I'm confident that their final configuration will be better than the temporary setup that they are using now.

KQCK RF 11 came back on the yesterday. my Dish receiver doesn't give me sound (my Directivo does, though).

It's nice to confirm that my VHF/UHF pre-amp does work, but I'm back to my UHF-only version until there's something worthwhile on VHF.

Rob T

You referenced your VHF/UHF pre-amp, I'm assuming it is the HDP-269 you ordered a few weeks ago.
Overall, how is your HDP-269 pre-amp working 60+ miles from LOM compared to your CM-7775 UHF pre-amp?
I'm looking to replace my 8275 with a 269 after the transition.

As for KQCK-DT, there is no audio here 7 miles from the tower and only 15 degrees off axis of my antennae. When they were on the air previously, audio was good.

I have been buying most of my antennas & mounting supplies via the web, I have looked at Home Depot & Lowes but their supplies are VERY limited. Does anyone know of a local store where these type of supplies can be purchased?

^^^^^ Radio Shack. ^^^^^^

As noted above, The Quack (KQCK-DT) is back -- sorta.

My ATI HDTV Wonder card in my PC gets video and audio of their reprehensible programming just fine, but with no EIT data or even a station ID in the data stream.

My Zenith DTT900 CECB gets the video but no audio.

My RCA DTA800 CECB can't scan it.

Those goobers in Little Rock, Arkansas, must work overtime to screw the signal up in such creative ways.


Jim McCauley

I'm betting there's no PSIP. There has never been PSIP in any of the data I've seen from KQCK, and as long as there is no PSIP, there will be no ID nor EIT. Some receivers will not decode stations without PSIP.

Then, if the audio is in a non-standard location, without the PSIP to tell the receiver where the audio actually is, it might not be able to find any audio. I've even seen some stations use MPEG-2 audio instead of AC3 audio, and since the former is not in the ATSC spec, lots of receivers won't decode anything.

While I'm in here, can someone tell me what the audio service is on KRMA-DT 18.6? I know it's there, and a lot of receivers won't decode it, but I'd like to know what it is. The data I have shows it using some huge amount of bandwidth (768k maybe?), so I'm really wondering about it.

- Trip

Trip, I have one receiver that kinda decodes 18.6. It's my Audiovox kitchen LCD connected to a UHF loop antenna. The audio continuously drops out, probably over 50% of the time, so it's hard to tell what the audio is. My best guess - a reading service for the blind.

Thanks for the suggestions.

Glad to hear the Winegard is the better choice, because from looking at the pictures, it appears to be built better. It's 20" shorter yet it has a reinforcing boom, where the Antennacraft has none. Seems like it should be stiffer.

I like the notion that these VHF-Hi antennas aren't as wide a regular full VHF antenna. That's always been the problem: real long antenna elements. They're flexible and they break off. I get a lot of birds landing on them, I suspect that may be contributing to the breakage. I just know that I'd buy a new VU-190 or similar and in a couple years I'd lose enough elements that the signal was degrading and I had to go get a new antenna. That was one of the big pluses to going to DTV, I got to put up an antenna that would last.

When I tried the aforementioned amplifiers, and saw how many channels I lost, I tried bypassing my distribution amp, thinking perhaps I was over-amplifying. I just took the feed out of the power injection unit straight to my TV (Sharp LC-45GX6U at the time). Still lost all but a couple channels. If I remember right, I could get 2.1 and 31.1 only.

I'm guessing they inject too much noise. I see that CM7777 is advertised as ultra low noise, maybe it'll work, I'll give it a shot. And if it does double duty as the combiner as well, it solves 2 problems at once.

Thanks again, you guys are really helpful.

Back when KMGH-DT was broadcasting with a coat hanger on their downtown studio, I tried the Rat Shack pre-amp discussed in the HDTV Primer, attached to a large, outdoor antenna in my attic. While it didn't over-amplify any of the low power signals of the other stations at the time, it didn't come close to getting KMGH-DT. I switched to the CM7777 and got excellent results. All signal levels went up and I even got KMGH-DT (at least until they cut power after an upset, but got everybody when they went to RP).

The CM7777 is an excellent, low noise pre-amp, and at your range, it shouldn't create any over-amplification problems. I currently have one on my 91XG in the attic and get KWHD-DT, Castle Rock, with very good signal strength from 38 miles away and over a ridge line. Of course, configuration and installation are also important when using a pre-amp. For best results, it needs to have as short as possible a high quality (preferably quad-shielded) RG-6 coax lead from the antenna (or antenna balun) to the pre-amp. Good, new, sealed (for outdoors) connections are also a must.

Finally, if it isn't possible to have the pre-amp power supply installed up-stream of all splitters, be sure to use DC Blockers in all of the split-off lines. Otherwise the system won't work and you'll endanger whatever electronics are on the other end of the split-offs.

I talked to my Channel Master rep today and was able to have him send me the DB specs on the CM 4228HD. I know that a lot of people are skeptical about how the 4228 and 4228HD ability to bring in the high Vs. Well I can get 7,9 in analog and when KQCK 11-1 (digital RF11)is on the air it comes in just fine of the back side. Last weekend I raised my antenna 3 1/2' and now I'm at 24' to the center. It helped all of the signals a little bit, but the biggest gain was KRMA 6-1 it jumped a good 10% in signal.:) Which means it comes in steady with no break ups.

Ah, doesn't the FAA require a red beacon light on that thing. LOL!

I did get KQCK for a short time this morning. The sound was not in sync with the video (about a second delay). The signal is gone again.

Is there an FCC requirement that a station must broadcast a certain number of hours a month or lose their license? I just get the feeling that the station is trying to be on the air only as little as possible and doesn't care what it airs.

There's a rule that says a station that is off the air for more than 30 days without notifying the FCC will risk losing their license. Those who do notify the FCC cannot stay off the air for more than 1 year without risk of losing the license.

I've heard of some LPs which are off the air and sign back on for about a week once per year with whatever programming they can, just to keep the license alive.

- Trip

Ah, doesn't the FAA require a red beacon light on that thing. LOL!

Not yet:D I put one up for my next door neighbor, on top his 2 story. His is still 3' taller then mine.:( If I could afford to add a secoud story to my ranch, I would just to get it up another 10'.

KQCK for me is coming in just fine on my LCD HDTV at 100%. But on my CM box the audio cuts in and out. In the passed the CM box did better then my tv with PSIP info. Very strange:confused:

I too noticed that KQCK-DT was back on the air a few days ago and was very surprised to see it. As I understand it, their parent company, Equity Media Holdings (EMH) filed for bankruptcy in early December. Apparently, EMH owed a bunch of money to the Retro Television Network (RTN) and couldn't pay it, so RTN walked away taking their programming with them. Consequently, most EMH stations have been showing so-called "classic" movies since then. My guess is that the programming they've been offering is mostly public domain and therefore free. It would be nice if they could get their act together and provide some decent programming again, but I'm not holding my breath.