Some of the Equity stations are now airing This TV.

- Trip

You referenced your VHF/UHF pre-amp, I'm assuming it is the HDP-269 you ordered a few weeks ago.
Overall, how is your HDP-269 pre-amp working 60+ miles from LOM compared to your CM-7775 UHF pre-amp?


That's correct, jamjar. The 269 doesn't work as well as the 7775, unfortunately.
It lets me watch the Quack (whoop-de-doo!), but I lose KMGH, and KRMA gets
spottier. Whenever 7/9/12 go to back to VHF and there's a KRMA translator, I
may be able to manage better, but for now the 7775 is better for me. I've also
stopped splitting the signal, since I'm almost ignoring my Dish in favor of the
machine with the program guide. Needless to say, I hope the stations don't
pick divergent times to go back to VHF.

Rob T

Those goobers in Little Rock, Arkansas, must work overtime to screw the signal up in such creative ways.
Jim McCauley

That's for sure. I'd think it you took delivery of HD gear and never cracked the owner's
manual, you do better than this.

I do wonder out of what barrel they're scraping content from. Any of the Spanish and
religious stations have more interesting content.

Rob T

Posted by Trip:
There's a rule that says a station that is off the air for more than 30 days without notifying the FCC will risk losing their license.
KQCK easily violated this rule this past summer. Nothing happened, like a warning/fine, though, AFAIK.

I'm betting there's no PSIP. There has never been PSIP in any of the data I've seen from KQCK, and as long as there is no PSIP, there will be no ID nor EIT. Some receivers will not decode stations without PSIP.

Then, if the audio is in a non-standard location, without the PSIP to tell the receiver where the audio actually is, it might not be able to find any audio. I've even seen some stations use MPEG-2 audio instead of AC3 audio, and since the former is not in the ATSC spec, lots of receivers won't decode anything.

I'm fairly certain KQCK's audio problem is not related to bad PSIP this time around. They only have minimal PSIP, but what they do have seems to be OK.

This time I think the problem is with the mpeg/AC-3 encoding. I suspect that they are using non standard buffer sizes or something along those lines. I can decode it just fine with some software, and others can't do anything with it. One program starts to decode the audio for a second or two, and then the audio starts to stutter and finally goes silent. That behaviour is what leads me to believe that there is a buffer size issue.

While I'm in here, can someone tell me what the audio service is on KRMA-DT 18.6? I know it's there, and a lot of receivers won't decode it, but I'd like to know what it is. The data I have shows it using some huge amount of bandwidth (768k maybe?), so I'm really wondering about it.


I'm fairly certain that the audio on 18.6 is the Audio Information Network of Colorado (http://www.aincolorado.org/). For a long time the PSIP data claimed it was mpeg2 audio, and I was able to decode it at that time and verify that it was the AINC. I have no reason to believe that that has changed (AINC is also broadcast in the alternate SAP audio of KRMA's analog service). The PSIP data now says that the audio is AC-3 encoded (which is what it should be to conform to ATSC standards). However, I can no longer decode it, so I believe that it is either not really AC-3 yet, or it is not properly encoded.

Once they get the encoding right KRMA should add the channel to their TVCT as an audio only channel. This will increase the chance that the audio can be decoded. I would think that they would want to get that accomplished before they terminate the analog service.

I'm fairly certain KQCK's audio problem is not related to bad PSIP this time around. They only have minimal PSIP, but what they do have seems to be OK.

The last data that you sent me from them had no PSIP. Are you saying they now have PSIP?

- Trip

While I'm in here, can someone tell me what the audio service is on KRMA-DT 18.6? I know it's there, and a lot of receivers won't decode it, but I'd like to know what it is. The data I have shows it using some huge amount of bandwidth (768k maybe?), so I'm really wondering about it.

- Trip

I did a rescan this morning on my Sony XBR4 and it found 6-1, 6-2, 6-3, 18-6 and 18-8. It could not decode 18-6 and 18-8.

I did a rescan this morning on my Sony XBR4 and it found 6-1, 6-2, 6-3, 18-6 and 18-8. It could not decode 18-6 and 18-8.

18-8 is UpdateTV, nothing's supposed to decode on that one.

18-6 is an audio-only subchannel, which some receivers will receive and others won't.

- Trip

I do wonder out of what barrel they're [KQCK] scraping content from. Any of the Spanish and religious stations have more interesting content.

First the signal, now the content. It's like Forrest Gump's box of chocolates: You never know what you'll get. I watch them off KQDK-CA 39 in Aurora. Sometimes, they'll surprise you. This afternoon, they ran "McClintock!", a classic 1963 John Wayne comedy/western, followed by "Escape from Death Row," a low-budget 1975 cult favorite originated from very badly scratched celluloid. It's as rick313 said earlier: public domain... and it shows.

Zap2it still shows the RTN schedule for both stations, else we'd be able to tell when the nuggets are on the air.

The last data that you sent me from them had no PSIP. Are you saying they now have PSIP?

- Trip

Nothing has changed. I guess it depends on how you define PSIP. If you define PSIP as only the additional PSIP data specified by the ATSC A/65C standard, then no, they have no PSIP. I include the PAT and PMT tables when I talk about PSIP, which are defined in the ISO 13818-1 mpeg2 standard. KQCK has even lacked those tables at times, which means that even tsreader can't do anything with the data when that happens.

IMO, delaying the analog cutoff/transition to digital will result in continued non-compliance by various stations to provide proper/complete PSIP info. The FCC has probably been up to their eyeballs just keeping up with the various filings by stations since last fall to maximize their digital facilities, shut off analog early, request channel assignment changes, etc. Some of this will have to continue if the 2-17-09 date is extended. That leaves no resources to address issues such as compliant PSIP info. And the FCC has other responsibilites besides digital TV.

I filed a complaint with the FCC last fall regarding KQCK. In December, I received a confirmation notice from the FCC regarding my complaint. Meanwhile, KQCK continues on its merry way of doing whatever they want to, which equates to generally blowing off FCC requirements.

I sent the owners of KRMT via their national web site an email a couple of weeks ago regarding their failure to properly remap to 41-1 and their lack of providing program guide info. Besides "reminding" them that their PSIP was non-compliant, I rhetorically asked them how folks would "find" them after 2-17-09 if they punched in 41 on their remote and got a black screen. Needless to say, I haven't heard back from them and they continue to improperly map to 40-1 and provide no program guide info.

I just did a scan of the locals, not including KFCT or KWHD since I didn't turn my antenna towards those stations. Here's what I found:

6-3 Audio but no video on my E* receivers
11-1 What can I say?
14-1 No guide info
25-1 No guide info, no audio on my E* receivers, maps to 29-3 on my Audiovox LCD
40-1 Improper mapping, no guide info
50-1 No guide info
59-1 No guide info

I'd be willing to bet that the above stations know they are not in compliance with PSIP requirements. But why bother. It costs resources to keep guide info updated and they know there's no FCC enforcement. That won't change until analog is shut off.

I think if the transition date is extended to say 6-12-09, these problems will continue. In addition, I don't think KMGH and KUSA will shut off analog until they have to. They certainly don't want to lose viewers. In addition, KWGN and KDVR will delay the construction of their full power facilites 4 months beyond their currently stated intention of 8-18-09, which puts them into 2010 and we're barely into 2009, because they won't shut off analog early either. KBDI won't be able to move the channel 13 until KRDO shuts off its analog on channel 13 which will also probably be delayed until analog shutoff is mandated.

Rant over.

Nothing has changed. I guess it depends on how you define PSIP. If you define PSIP as only the additional PSIP data specified by the ATSC A/65C standard, then no, they have no PSIP. I include the PAT and PMT tables when I talk about PSIP, which are defined in the ISO 13818-1 mpeg2 standard. KQCK has even lacked those tables at times, which means that even tsreader can't do anything with the data when that happens.

Yeah, in my mind, PSIP is the TVCT and the EIT. The PMT and PAT are not included in the PSIP standard as they're part of MPEG.

To all those whose heads are swimming from the alphabet soup above, I apologize. :D

- Trip

IMO, delaying the analog cutoff/transition to digital will result in continued non-compliance by various stations to provide proper/complete PSIP info. The FCC has probably been up to their eyeballs just keeping up with the various filings by stations since last fall to maximize their digital facilities, shut off analog early, request channel assignment changes, etc. Some of this will have to continue if the 2-17-09 date is extended. That leaves no resources to address issues such as compliant PSIP info. And the FCC has other responsibilites besides digital TV.

...

I'd be willing to bet that the above stations know they are not in compliance with PSIP requirements. But why bother. It costs resources to keep guide info updated and they know there's no FCC enforcement. That won't change until analog is shut off.

I think if the transition date is extended to say 6-12-09, these problems will continue. ...
Yep, my concern is the same. As long as the analog is broadcast the digital seems to take a backseat.

OK, most on this thread don't want a digital transition delay, but how many have contacted their Representative and Senators? I did, and did not receive a replay, other than the automatic receipt acknowledgement. I guess I have to contact the new Senator, Bennett, if he has a web site or email set up yet.

However, I think the fix is in. They're going to vote to delay it this week because those lobbying for a delay have more political clout than those who want to just do it. Not one of Democracy's finest hours.

I guess I have to contact the new Senator, Bennett, if he has a web site or email set up yet.

However, I think the fix is in. They're going to vote to delay it this week because those lobbying for a delay have more political clout than those who want to just do it.

Rep Markey's email won't accept messages - claims I left out information even though I filled every blank with something. Sent Faxes and got NO response.

Udall and Salazar sent auto responses.

Not one of Democracy's finest hours.
Same old - same old!!!!!!

Can't believe there hasn't been a post about the Post's various DTV articles in Sunday's paper. Here's two of my favorite extracts:

Too, the government wanted to sell the lower broadcast spectrum that stations were abandoning - the new digital ones are largely found in the UHF band, which runs from channels 14-69 - to wireless providers and emergency services.
Continuing that wonderfully accurate statement:
Wireless companies such as Verizon and AT&T have said they would comply with a delay, though they lost money by putting off plans to use portions of the VHF spectrum they had just purchased.
If you haven't read the articles, you're missing out on some great expertise, like using "longer antennas" and the fact that "slimmer" antennas can now be used "because the signals are more focused".

Here is a link to the online version of the article:

http://www.denverpost.com/search/ci_11542484

One of the nicest aspects of digital TV will be the availability of additional channels. Not just more stations, but subchannels from the same station, such as 9.1, 9.2, 9.3 — up to six of them.

I beg to differ on this comment as well. The media never seems to mention how much quality suffers when a station does this when it has an HD main channel. Some stations that don't have an HD signal can pull it off, but I rarely bother with subs.

It also is common to hear that "analog spectrum" was auctioned off as DTV signals are "more efficient." Last I checked, stations still used 6MHz. I recognize adjacent channels are available for DTV, but wonder if this really works better in practice than adjacent analogs would have.

That article has links to others as noted by milehighmike. Here is a quote from one:

Digital signals work better on the higher UHF band and some parts of the upper VHF. The transition, though, puts most stations onto the UHF channels.

That means that a giant TV antenna isn't really necessary anymore. Slimmer ones will do fine. Why? Because the signals are more focused. They don't bend around mountains and obstacles.

The physics haven't really changed. The width of the antenna is key to which stations you receive. The wider the antenna, the lower the channel you'll get. Since most stations won't be lower than channel 7, there's no need for anything wider than 32 inches.

The last quote is one that I rarely see. I suspect more people would be willing to put up antennas if they knew that they did not need to cover the Low-VHF band (in most parts of the country). Local retail stores in the LA area, still carry the huge Low-High-UHF antennas, if they bother to carry any outdoor antennas at all.

Can't believe there hasn't been a post about the Post's various DTV articles in Sunday's paper. Here's two of my favorite extracts:


Continuing that wonderfully accurate statement:

If you haven't read the articles, you're missing out on some great expertise, like using "longer antennas" and the fact that "slimmer" antennas can now be used "because the signals are more focused".

Actually, despite the technical errors and over-simplifications, they are the most informative set of articles on DTV transition for the general population that I've seen. Unfortunately, they are printed at the beginning of the week that Congress will vote to delay transition. I guess they can run all these articles again in 4 months.

OK, most on this thread don't want a digital transition delay, but how many have contacted their Representative and Senators?

I sent an e-mail to Udall and Coffman. I doubt it will do any good, but at least I gave it a shot. I figured Salazar was a waste of time since he's already resigned, hasn't he?

As I understand it though, the proposed delay would only affect the date that full-power stations MUST stop broadcasting in analog. They could still quit broadcasting analog early, right? I'm guessing that most stations will opt to do that given the choice since it would allow them to save on both power and programming resources.

Posted by CEB II:
Actually, despite the technical errors and over-simplifications, they are the most informative set of articles on DTV transition for the general population that I've seen.
IMO, neophytes (and that's to whom these articles are targeted) cannot discern what is correct from what is not correct or missing. And that's the problem. Why couldn't the Post run these articles by someone with the appropriate technical background to ensure accuracy?

Also, these articles (except for the blurb about KBDI's analog being down) continue to send the overall message that the switch to digital TV won't affect 'you' until 2-18-09. I didn't note a promotion anywhere in the articles that if you have, or once you get, your CECB, that you should hook it up and ditch analog. Was there any statement, direct or by inference, that digital TV is available today? No. They can't even count correctly. One heading states a "12 week delay possible". That's May 12, not June 12.

Unless consumers are encouraged to convert to digital ASAP, there will be a flood of phone calls to the stations and the FCC on 2-18-09 or 6-12-09. By getting consumers to convert when they acquire their CECB's or new digital TV's, this flood of phone calls could be spread over time and the conversion to digital could be promoted by word of mouth and 'good' newspaper articles, mitigating any 'crash' on the date the analog cutoff actually occurs.

I sent an e-mail to Udall and Coffman. I doubt it will do any good, but at least I gave it a shot. I figured Salazar was a waste of time since he's already resigned, hasn't he?

As I understand it though, the proposed delay would only affect the date that full-power stations MUST stop broadcasting in analog. They could still quit broadcasting analog early, right? I'm guessing that most stations will opt to do that given the choice since it would allow them to save on both power and programming resources.If a station closes down it's analog transmission and it's competition does not, the digital only station will lose audience share and it's advertising rates will have to be lowered.

If a station closes down it's analog transmission and it's competition does not, the digital only station will lose audience share and it's advertising rates will have to be lowered.

If the Post's articles numbers are correct (i.e., 72K unprepared out of 1.5M), that's less than 5% of their viewing audience. Would they make financial decisions based on that small a demographic?

Posted by CEB II:

IMO, neophytes (and that's to whom these articles are targeted) cannot discern what is correct from what is not correct or missing. And that's the problem. Why couldn't the Post run these articles by someone with the appropriate technical background to ensure accuracy?

Also, these articles (except for the blurb about KBDI's analog being down) continue to send the overall message that the switch to digital TV won't affect 'you' until 2-18-09. I didn't note a promotion anywhere in the articles that if you have, or once you get, your CECB, that you should hook it up and ditch analog. Was there any statement, direct or by inference, that digital TV is available today? No. They can't even count correctly. One heading states a "12 week delay possible". That's May 12, not June 12.

Unless consumers are encouraged to convert to digital ASAP, there will be a flood of phone calls to the stations and the FCC on 2-18-09 or 6-12-09. By getting consumers to convert when they acquire their CECB's or new digital TV's, this flood of phone calls could be spread over time and the conversion to digital could be promoted by word of mouth and 'good' newspaper articles, mitigating any 'crash' on the date the analog cutoff actually occurs.

Mike, I agree that the biggest shortcoming of the Post articles is the "we fall off a cliff on February 18th" approach rather than encouraging early conversion and use of what is already available. That said, effective communication is getting your message across to the listener by whatever means works.

I'm a retired P.E. and my wife is loan officer who is very good at what she does and has a degree in communications. She doesn't have the level of interest in DTV, HDTV, and new electronics that I do, but she cares to know how they can or do affect her. I often have to simplify things into less than accurate analogies to communicate the important points. Despite these oversimplifications, she comes across as technically savvy when she discusses things like DTV transition with the ladies at the salon who often are clueless on such subjects.

So, I understand the article referring to slimmer antennas with high VHF and UHF without discussing wavelength, and shorter antennas without discussing the number of elements, two terms that would require extensive explanation to the general population. To their credit they made the point more than once that there is no such thing as an HD or DTV antenna, which is one of the canards that CEMs and retailers have been trying to foist off on the public for the past several years.

So I'm not arguing with you. I'm just pleased that the Post made an extensive effort to communicate with the least interested and technically savvy of their readership on a subject apparently 4.8% of the Colorado population hasn't understood or has chosen to thus far ignore.

Was there any statement, direct or by inference, that digital TV is available today?

I haven't seen any references like that in print, but I have noted the recent spots on KUSA with Mark Koebrick encouraging viewers to hook-up their converter boxes now.

You're right about some viewers not being aware that DTV is available now. I know that I didn't realize that fact until about this time last year. Until then, like many viewers, I thought that digital would not be available until analog went away. Maybe that explains why so many people have waited until the last minute to prepare for the transition.

I've seen a lot of commercials and informercials about the DTV transistion, and most of them have done pretty well on the technical stuff. Unfortunately, they have failed to point out some very simple things like the fact that DTV is currently available and has been for years.

CEB II, appreciate your perspective .

There is another article in the Post today. It's OK. The main thing I think today's article does is raise awareness about getting a CECB, which is good. It made me think about why folks order CECB coupons and then don't use them. Are they just procrastinators, decided to go with cable/satellite or bought a new TV, or maybe the box "didn't work"?

According to the article, I was also somewhat surprised at D*'s approach to this. Apparently E* and cable companies expect new customers, based upon the digital switch made Wilmington, NC for example, but D*'s business plan seems to be the opposite, almost like they don't care that there's a potential new revenue source out there, albeit somewhat small.

There is another article in the Post today.

Here's a link to today's article (http://www.denverpost.com/search/ci_11552252) in the Post. There's an online poll included with the article to determine who's ready for DTV and who's not. The results should be interesting.

It made me think about why folks order CECB coupons and then don't use them. Are they just procrastinators, decided to go with cable/satellite or bought a new TV, or maybe the box "didn't work"?
I've been watching digital TV for years now, but I signed up for the coupons last summer "just in case" I decided to get a DTVPal for my old VCR. In the end I got busy and lost interest and they expired on me, but no big deal - except that now the guvmint thinks I'm one of those people who aren't ready.

Me too. I needed one for an upstairs bedroom TV on it's own antenna. But I ordered two (why not?) and only used one letting one expire. Statistics can make a lot of points which aren't necessarily true.

Let's get on with the cutover already! People who find themselves in the snowy dark will probably be able to get their "problem" resolved within a couple of weeks, I would bet. What a senseless waste of money and time to delay.

Statistics can make a lot of points which aren't necessarily true.

Let's get on with the cutover already! People who find themselves in the snowy dark will probably be able to get their "problem" resolved within a couple of weeks, I would bet. What a senseless waste of money and time to delay.

Or, based on the test conversion town/city, their "problem" will be resolved in a couple of days.

Of course the funding for additional "coupons" has inappropriately been included in the Stimulate America funding bill, which won't see the President's desk for weeks. Why not a simple funding increase for coupons bill that could probably pass by voice vote.

You know, something smells rotten about this whole delay deal. It is hard for me to believe that people who haven't paid any attention to the conversion for three years and have been so clueless, now have the wherewithal and political savvy to petition their politicians for a delay in transition. I know that Consumers Union has stuck its nose into the issue uninvited, but just how does about 5% of population get the Federal Government to do what they want and not what the bulk of American taxpayers and voters want? Oh, I know, conversion on schedule would represent the tyranny of the majority.

First the gov't bails out the greedy mortgage companies and banks, and now they're bailing out the procrastinators.

Here are some articles related to PBS:

Digital transition delay would cost PBS $22M
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jEqzyZfGUgUWJQfcJ98kJK_LiiOwD95V41187

KBDI, Rocky Mountain PBS urge digital switch now
http://www.examiner.com/a-1811763~KBDI__Rocky_Mountain_PBS_urge_digital_switch_now.htm l

Now that the analog cutoff date has, for all intents and purposes, been officially delayed, I assume we'll have to wait until June for KUSA and KMGH to go full power? And now KBDI will have to repair the analog transmitter, and won't be able to move to 13?

This isn't the kind of "change" I was hoping for! ;)

You know, something smells rotten about this whole delay deal. It is hard for me to believe that people who haven't paid any attention to the conversion for three years and have been so clueless, now have the wherewithal and political savvy to petition their politicians for a delay in transition. I know that Consumers Union has stuck its nose into the issue uninvited, but just how does about 5% of population get the Federal Government to do what they want and not what the bulk of American taxpayers and voters want? Oh, I know, conversion on schedule would represent the tyranny of the majority.

Didn't you read Rockefeller's quote in one of the articles? It's another reason to blame to Bush administration for failing to pay attention to [pick any] minorities/poor people/oppressed people/etc. Total BS, and a total waste of money IMO. What a jerk, but I guess that's what it takes to be a senator. In West Virginia, no less.

Didn't you read Rockefeller's quote in one of the articles? It's another reason to blame to Bush administration for failing to pay attention to [pick any] minorities/poor people/oppressed people/etc. Total BS, and a total waste of money IMO. What a jerk, but I guess that's what it takes to be a senator. In West Virginia, no less.
The thing I can't get over is that the bill is reported to have passed the Senate via Unanimous Consent. Even as cynical as I am, I would have thought their was at least ONE Senator with some intelligence, principles, and courage. I would have been wrong.

There is a loop-hole in the bill that allows stations to make the change early if they want to. Not exactly sure who will do it and/or what allows them to do so.
Here's the story...

Delay Optional story (http://www.wftv.com/digital-tv/18552316/detail.html)
WSET, for instance, is broadcasting an analog signal on Channel 13 and a digital signal on Channel 34, and plans to move its digital signal to Channel 13 after the switchover. Yet it cannot begin construction on a new digital station until it shuts down the analog one. So for more than a year, WSET has had tower crews and other workers scheduled to begin on Feb. 18.
To address such scenarios, the Senate bill would let TV stations proceed with the analog shutdown early -- an option that WSET is considering.

I've mentioned before I wonder how many more employees the stations will cut now.

I've seen estimates that the cost to run an analog transmitter is about $20,000/month just for electrical power.

Thus extending the DTV date will cost stations $80,000 in power alone, plus transition costs that will now have to be put back (for example, the tower crews KWGN/KDVR had scheduled will now have to find something else to do.)

Bottom line, by pushing the switchover back I wouldn't be surprised to find it costs at least two to three employees per station across the United States.

Nice job, guys.

Is Nick Carter the first victim?

9News has not renewed the contract of Nick Carter, a 24-year meteorologist and weather anchor at Denver's top-rated TV station. His last broadcast will be Friday after the morning newscast.

News broke on the Internet Monday, and a 9News colleague - who wanted to remain anonymous - confirmed the dismissal. The station is not expected to fill that position, according to the source.

Neither news director Patti Dennis nor Carter could be reached for comment Monday morning.

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/news/2009/jan/26/nick-carter-laid-9news/

I think the stations will make a decision regarding staying with analog until 6-12-09, or whatever date the extension is, based upon a cost benefit analysis. The stations aren't going to lose a lot of money over the 4 month extension period just because they are good citizens to both prepared and unprepared viewers. KUSA's actions in dumping Bob Kendrick and now Nick Carter probably weren't done to fund an analog extension! And I think they will do this in kind of an oligopoly/working together/collusion type manner. For example, KUSA isn't going to shut off analog and lose viewers to their daily newscasts if KMGH and KCNC don't do likewise.

So they're going to look at advertising revenue (any ratings sweeps between 2-17-09 and 6-12-09?), whether they can let some personnel go since they have only digital equipment to tend to, savings on the electrice bill (KTVD and KDVR the highest, KWGN and KCNC the lowest), savings on maintenance of the analog side of the house, the cost of rescheduling crews (perhaps some the transition work has already started), etc. I can't imagine it being anything other than a business decision.

Of course, all of these stations could have elected to terminate analog tomorrow, so who knows?

I wonder if these stations have contacted D*, E*, and Comcast to determine how many subscribers there are, add to that total coupon redemptions divided by two, and subtract that total from total households in the DMA. That should give the stations a ballpark number of households who still rely totally on analog. Of course, will the program providers share subscriber numbers?

Bottom line, it is what it is.

Do you think at least one station will make the switch per the original (revised) schedule just to be able to brag in commercial after commercial that they were "first"?

What I think would be best for the public overall would be for stations who aren't on their final channel and/or full power to make the switch on Feb 17 as planned. Other channels can keep their analog operating longer (until June 12, presumably) if they choose.

That would prevent those who are unprepared from going totally dark on Feb. 17--they would lose only some channels. It would be one more wake-up call. And it would allow some time to get antenna changes made if necessary for the final DTV configuration presumably on June 12.

Not that I'm predicting that it will happen this way...

Mark

Since my letters to my legislators went un-heeded, I decided to try with the stations. I just sent a letter requesting they go ahead and transition in Feb. to the general manager of the 4,7,9 (and 20) (31 and 2 didn't have General Manager email, but I sent email to other addresses for those stations too).

I'm sure they will have the same affect as my letters to my legislators. Oh well.

The only problem with that "are you ready" poll in the article referenced above is that they don't have an option for "Not worried, TV has built-in DTV tuner". The only other options for "ready" are I either have an old TV or I'm on cable/satellite. In either case I can see where they would try to relate those numbers to revenue figures.

I'm being oppressed!


hehe ;)

What did some of you choose that are not on cable/satellite and didn't have to buy a converter?

Is Nick Carter the first victim?
According to that article he is only 24? I would have guessed he was in his 30's at least. OTOH, 24 sounds about right for Ashton Altieri.

FYI, I already got a response back from Mark C. at 9/20 and Dave M at 2/31:

From Mark:
My 20 will be maximized next week so the signal strength will improve dramatically.
As for the rest of the stations I can’t say what they will decide. We have to look at
the number of people who might be left behind.
As mentioned earlier, a pure business decision. Good news that My 20 will increase power next week, however!

From Dave:
Unfortunately the recently elected officials are not working in the best interests of
those who actually heeded the word of local broadcasters and took initiative to
ensure they would have continued over the air television service. Now, both
broadcasters and those individuals who are on the ball, must suffer through a delay
which may or may not be the only one.Sounds like 2/31 will not be transitioning early (both are relatively strong now, but I still wish they would "pull the plug" anyway).

Greg

According to that article he is only 24? I would have guessed he was in his 30's at least. OTOH, 24 sounds about right for Ashton Altieri.

Poor wording on RMN's part. He has been a meteorologist for 24 years.

http://www.denverpost.com/headlines/ci_11556849

Poor wording on RMN's part. He has been a meteorologist for 24 years.

http://www.denverpost.com/headlines/ci_11556849

Which means he costs a whole lot more than Ashton. His termination is consistent with their approach on the news anchors. Drop the second highest paid one to save money, but keep the highest in hopes of preserving ratings.

FYI, I already got a response back from Mark C. at 9/20 and Dave M at 2/31:

From Mark:
My 20 will be maximized next week so the signal strength will improve dramatically.
As for the rest of the stations I can’t say what they will decide. We have to look at
the number of people who might be left behind.
As mentioned earlier, a pure business decision. Good news that My 20 will increase power next week, however!

From Dave:
Unfortunately the recently elected officials are not working in the best interests of
those who actually heeded the word of local broadcasters and took initiative to
ensure they would have continued over the air television service. Now, both
broadcasters and those individuals who are on the ball, must suffer through a delay
which may or may not be the only one.Sounds like 2/31 will not be transitioning early (both are relatively strong now, but I still wish they would "pull the plug" anyway).

Greg

Not surprizing regarding 2/31 as 31's team is in the driver's seat and they have been DTV laggards from the beginning. I get 31 DTV quite well, but I wish 2's antenna was at the top of their tower so I would get a more reliable signal.

I think that in protest, I'm just going to shutoff my remaining analog feeds and channels scans by 2/17 and take down my VHF/UHF combo antenna, leaving just my UHF antennas.

The only place where I still get any utility out of the analog signals is with my JVC DVDR/VCR with dual analog tuners. I've got a converter box for it, but as the Post article noted, using a converter box with a VCR is a real PITA.

Interesting piece of mail from DISH Network arrived yesterday:

"Don't Let Your TV Go Dark! The Digital Transition Happens on or before February 17."

The flip side is a nice bit of Fear/Uncertainty/Doubt marketing. The offer is $9.99 for local channels only, a "welcome pack" of "over 17 more channels" for $9.99, or $14.99 for both. The deal is labeled "Not a promotional price," but of course the fine print says, "subject to change without notice," and you have to pay for the hardware and the installation, price unspecified.

Pity that the Congress may have taken the edge off it with the transition extension.

Me, I ain't buyin' it...


Jim McCauley

I wonder if Dish will rerun the offer in June for those who discover that they can no longer receive their OTA stations because the new DTV footprint left them out.

I received the same promo from E*. I've been a subscriber to E* for about 10 years, so I wondered why I was sent the material. I guess they don't care about wasting money sending this to current subscribers, they'll just increase rates to compensate for their inefficiency. Or lay some folks off.

What did some of you choose that are not on cable/satellite and didn't have to buy a converter?

I'm in the same boat as you: HDTV with OTA antenna in a townhouse attic. Nothing fit, so I didn't participate.

From TV Newsday, largely the same article as the Examiner link a page back, but I thought the text would be of interest:

Colo. PBS TVs Damaged, Rely on DTV

DENVER (AP) — Some viewers of Colorado's PBS television stations are being urged to convert to digital reception now — ahead of the Feb. 17 date for the nationwide DTV switch-because of damage to the stations' analog transmission systems.

KBDI Denver spokeswoman Marcia Simmons says recent 100 mph winds caused extensive damage to the station's antenna and transmission line and knocked its analog signal off the air. Simmons says repair or replacement of the antenna could take four weeks.

The station's digital systems weren't impacted, nor were analog translators in Colorado Springs and Boulder. Viewers with cable or satellite service aren't affected.

Meantime, Rocky Mountain PBS says its KRMJ-TV analog transmitter in Grand Junction failed Dec. 31, and may not be repaired.

http://www.tvnewsday.com/articles/2009/01/26/daily.1/

From TV Newsday, largely the same article as the Examiner link a page back, but I thought the text would be of interest:

At this point, I can't imagine why KBDI would spend a penny to repair its damaged analog TV transmission equipment. Just go all digital now. Up the power to the max and when Channel 13 opens up, move. Their viewers digital tuners will follow the later move from 38 to 13.

Let's get on with the transition. If the Government is too inefficient to implement the transition in a timely manner, then maybe we can rely on the common sense, initiative, and moral courage of those who can act independently.

On a different note, regarding KWGN-DT morning news, on both OTA and my Dish HD feed, I see a problem almost every time they go to a split screen. I see a horizontal line about one third of the way down the picture. The line seems to have some red flashing to it. It only occurs when they try to split the screen to have one of their anchors on one side and a remote person on the other.

Anyone else see this problem?

The engineer from KWGN-DT used to monitor this thread, but he hasn't posted in a long while. Maybe he was part of the force reduction last Fall.

I'm in the same boat as you: HDTV with OTA antenna in a townhouse attic. Nothing fit, so I didn't participate.

I added a comment to the story basically calling everyone out.

I said that I dropped cable in the middle of December, and I'm already set for the digital transition. I had to buy a new antenna ($60 not reimbursed), and rewire my house ($50 not reimbursed).

Of course I was and am a pro-active kind of girl, so I've got that going for me.

Since I have an old 13" analog TV in our home office and a DVDR/VCR with analog tuners, I answered the survey as having my converter boxes, which I do. Got them in May and August of last year.

Of course I've spent a small fortune over the past five years getting DTV in my house, but that wasn't an answer option.

Posted by gkanders:
From Mark:
My 20 will be maximized next week so the signal strength will improve dramatically.
As for the rest of the stations I can’t say what they will decide. We have to look at
the number of people who might be left behind.

As mentioned earlier, a pure business decision. Good news that My 20 will increase power next week, however!

From Dave:
Unfortunately the recently elected officials are not working in the best interests of
those who actually heeded the word of local broadcasters and took initiative to
ensure they would have continued over the air television service. Now, both
broadcasters and those individuals who are on the ball, must suffer through a delay
which may or may not be the only one.

Sounds like 2/31 will not be transitioning early (both are relatively strong now, but I still wish they would "pull the plug" anyway).

The email from KUSA/KTVD doesn't indicate if KTVD analog will be shutoff at the time of the power increase next week. I presume it won't, but I thought there were RF radiation levels to contend with if digitals maximized and analogs weren't shut off. KCNC already puts out close to if not full power on digital.

Thought it was interesting also that they have to look at those who might be left behind. Wonder how they're going to do that.

As for KWGN/KDVR, it's the response I would have expected from them. They act like they are forced to continue analog until mandatory shutoff.

CEB,

Yes, I see the same issue on channel 2 in the morning. SInce it is only the split screen I haven't bothered with it. I generally am in the bathroom just listening to the program.

At this point, I can't imagine why KBDI would spend a penny to repair its damaged analog TV transmission equipment. Just go all digital now. Up the power to the max and when Channel 13 opens up, move. Their viewers digital tuners will follow the later move from 38 to 13.

Let's get on with the transition. If the Government is too inefficient to implement the transition in a timely manner, then maybe we can rely on the common sense, initiative, and moral courage of those who can act independently.

The damaged antenna is the VHF antenna they need for Channel 13. It is not as clear what cable was damged, but since winds took out the antenna, I would suspect that the cable they are talking about is between the antenna and the transmitter building. If that is correct, they need to repair and/or replace both before they can switch the digital to channel 13. The report I read said it could take about 4 weeks, and I think it was a few days ago. I don't remember where I read it, but I think it was a link from KBDI.org

At this point, I can't imagine why KBDI would spend a penny to repair its damaged analog TV transmission equipment.

That was my reaction at first too, but kenavs is correct.

The damaged antenna is the VHF antenna they need for Channel 13.

According to KBDI's Analog Antenna Update (http://www.kbdi.org/digital16.cfm) page:

“Our current digital antenna for Channel 38 (KBDI’s current digital channel allocation) is fine, but since the damaged antenna is the antenna that will be used for our digital broadcasts on our new digital frequency (Ch. 13) on February 18, getting it repaired or replaced is the station’s highest priority in order to ensure a continuation of KBDI’s digital broadcast services,” Mark Seewald, KBDI director of technical services, said. “We are doing everything possible to expedite restoration of the signal.”

The damaged antenna is the VHF antenna they need for Channel 13. It is not as clear what cable was damged, but since winds took out the antenna, I would suspect that the cable they are talking about is between the antenna and the transmitter building. If that is correct, they need to repair and/or replace both before they can switch the digital to channel 13. The report I read said it could take about 4 weeks, and I think it was a few days ago. I don't remember where I read it, but I think it was a link from KBDI.org

In that case, they should just take their time fixing the antenna and plan to have it ready for the new transition date in mid-June. I don't recall, but I think they can't move to Channel 13 until another station vacates that frequency. But, I could be wrong about that. If I am, they should just crank up Channel 13 when they get the antenna fixed. That would be a step in the right direction.

I don't recall, but I think they can't move to Channel 13 until another station vacates that frequency.

Correct. They have to wait for KRDO (ABC) in Colorado Springs to vacate channel 13 before they can make the switch.

Correct. They have to wait for KRDO (ABC) in Colorado Springs to vacate channel 13 before they can make the switch.

OK, so they should just take their time and be ready for VHF DTV, whenever that happens. Don't bother putting analog channel 12 back on the air. What a waste. And it could save them on their electric bill.

After all, cable and DBS get their DTV signal already and most of their OTA viewership gets their DTV signal, so the number of folks who would truly miss KBDI-TV Channel 12 would be a very small number for a fairly short time.

I believe KBDI has the option to work out an interference agreement with KRDO which would allow them to go digital on channel 13. As a side note, I saw a post on the Springs thread that stated KKTV, channel 11, is shutting off analog on 2-17-09, so maybe KRDO would do likewise.

Does anyone else think this bill to delay with the option of turning off analog if you choose, seems stupid? With the economy the way it is, why wouldn't you just turn it off and save money? There's no teeth to this. And, I would think that most stations in the US, have already booked crews to do the tower work to remove antenna's and towers. I bet those tower monkeys are booked for years. Re-booking would be tough.

If Analog only viewers have waited this long, they aren't going to be ready in June either. PULL THE PLUG!

If Analog only viewers have waited this long, they aren't going to be ready in June either. PULL THE PLUG!

Ready for what? Analog?

Now shush! I'm trying to watch Hee Haw. ;)

Does anyone else think this bill to delay with the option of turning off analog if you choose, seems stupid?

Yes, I think it a waste of time. However, I suppose it gives station owners the option to continue analog if they think they are going to lose a significant amount of viewers. Personally, I think that if viewers aren't ready for the change now, they probably won't be ready in June which could lead to another delay. Let's just get on with it!!

I'm a senior citizen and I was ready for the transition last April. I know of no one who is not ready.

Pull the plug on analog at the original date and the people who are not ready will then have an incentive to get off their rears and do so.

I'm retired and the youngster of a circle of senior citizen friends. I've been talking up the transition for a year now and THBOMK they are all prepared for the DTV transition. Many asked me detailed questions about the transition last Spring, then took some type of action. Of those not on cable or DBS, most bought new HDTVs for their main TVs . Any that had additional TVs in their homes obtained converter boxes for any of the old analog CRT sets they intended to keep as secondary TVs.

Great thread everyone. I have a ?. Are the stations currently operating at full power off of Look Out? The reason I am asking is that when I go camping, I get no signal at all. I am to assume that the antenae is not exactly pointed to the mountains but more or less the eastern front range. I was hoping to get a signal near Buena Vista.

Thank You.

I seem to have lost my ability to recieve unscrambled QAM HD local channels over Comcast cable in Boulder.

Has anyone else run into this problem?

regards
Doug

I seem to have lost my ability to recieve unscrambled QAM HD local channels over Comcast cable in Boulder.

Has anyone else run into this problem?

regards
Doug

Wrong thread for this question. Try here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=293562

Posted by paintit77:
Great thread everyone. I have a ?. Are the stations currently operating at full power off of Look Out? The reason I am asking is that when I go camping, I get no signal at all. I am to assume that the antenae is not exactly pointed to the mountains but more or less the eastern front range. I was hoping to get a signal near Buena Vista.

I don't think you'll ever see a signal from Lookout in Buena Vista. No, let me rephrase. You will never see a signal from Lookout in Buena Vista. There might be some low power repeaters around, but that would be about it.

Just saw in the Rocky online: The cuttoff delay was DEFEATED in the House of Rep.
I'm suprised, aren't you?

WooHoo!

I'm an Obamite, but this is great news. Let's get it over with already!

Posted by paintit77:

I don't think you'll ever see a signal from Lookout in Buena Vista. No, let me rephrase. You will never see a signal from Lookout in Buena Vista. There might be some low power repeaters around, but that would be about it.

Thanks Mike. I can currently recieve the analog signals from channels 4, 7 and 9 but none of the digitals ones.

Great news! Hopefully they won't wast time trying to reintroduce the bill with sweeteners like last year's bailout. I can't imagine Consumers Union has that much clout. Maybe our representatives paid attention to our requests!

http://www.9news.com/news/article.aspx?storyid=108688&catid=339

Great thread everyone. I have a ?. Are the stations currently operating at full power off of Look Out? The reason I am asking is that when I go camping, I get no signal at all. I am to assume that the antenae is not exactly pointed to the mountains but more or less the eastern front range. I was hoping to get a signal near Buena Vista.

Thank You.

Why do you want TV when camping?

This story from Yahoo:
http://tech.yahoo.com/news/ap/20090128/ap_on_hi_te/tec_digital_tv_transition

"The outgoing Bush administration grossly mismanaged the digital television transition and consumers are confused, households are not prepared, and the coupon program for converter boxes is broken," Rockefeller said in a statement."

This really makes me mad when I hear stuff like this. Yes everything that government does could be done better but blaming the past administration is totally bogus. He looses all credibility in his argument when he spews this partisan cr*p. Like his party is going to do it right?

Actually I remember hearing over a year ago about this coupon plan and how it would be handled with the budgeted money. Not sure I totally agree with the concept of taxpayer money going towards this but that is another issue. Seems to me it went pretty much as it was planned except for the 90 day expiration deal. And it was a bi-partisan effort. Don't think a few more months will really make much difference.

Sorry just had to vent.

"The next step remains unclear. Gene Kimmelman, vice president for federal policy at the Consumers Union, which has been lobbying for a delay, said he hopes House Democrats will bring the bill up again for a regular floor vote, which would only require majority support to pass. Wednesday's vote took place under a special procedure that required two-thirds support for passage."

Sounds like it could still happen? Sure hope it does not.

"The outgoing Bush administration grossly mismanaged the digital television transition and consumers are confused, households are not prepared, and the coupon program for converter boxes is broken," Rockefeller said in a statement."

What a crock of manure. How does a hack like this get elected?

Sounds like it could still happen? Sure hope it does not.

The Washington Post's (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/01/28/AR2009012801883.html?hpid=topnews) article on the bill seems to cast a lot of doubt on whether that will happen at all:

The Senate bill to delay the transition did not specify how the costs of a delay would be covered, which contributed to opposition in the House. Other lawmakers could still come forward with new bills to delay the transition or find other alternatives. But that would require Senate action and, with less than three weeks before the transition, time is running out.

What a crock of manure.I agree, but I'm still mystified as to why the new administration wants to push the transition back in the first place. Sticking with the 2/17 date gives them at least some plausibility to blame the prior administration (ignoring for the moment who controlled Congress) for any problems that may occur; and we know there are going to be SOME problems no matter when the date is. If the transition is delayed, then they own the problem outright I would think..

What a crock of manure. How does a hack like this get elected?

How do hacks like that keep getting reelected???

I never cease to be amazed that with all the problems we have in this country, this is the issue suddenly on the front burner. What has this exercise in stupidity to delay cost our already flat-broke nation?

No TV left behind? I say do it on schedule and let the chips fall where they may. I'm tired of seeing the damn informational commercials fifteen times a day.

Why do you want TV when camping?

Rockies Baseball!!!!!
Plus just trying to see if I can get it to work is a lot of fun! :)

So are they broadcasting at full power or are they waiting until they can shut off the ananlog?

Thanks.

How do hacks like that keep getting reelected???

I never cease to be amazed that with all the problems we have in this country, this is the issue suddenly on the front burner. What has this exercise in stupidity to delay cost our already flat-broke nation?

No TV left behind? I say do it on schedule and let the chips fall where they may. I'm tired of seeing the damn informational commercials fifteen times a day.

I read that the main reason for the delay is that congress did not appropriate the correct amount of funds for the set top boxes and that is why the delay. Normally I would agree that we the tax payer should not be subsidizing the cost of the transition but the reality is that the government caused the need for them in the first place. Not everyone gives a crap about digital tv or for that matter HD. I am the most HD obsesive person on the planet and people look at me like I am from Mars when I talk about it. I am grateful for the switch to Digital, it should have happened in 1990 as far as I am concerned but the reality is most people could give a crap about it. The government has the responsibility to make sure that those people who have an older TV can still get the same free OTA programming as before the switch.

Now if we could just get congress to mandate that if the CE companies want some of the voucher money that the set top boxes/tuners be made in the USA instead of China! Now that is something both Republicans and Democrats can agree on!:)

Way to go House of Representatives!! Hope February 17th sticks!!!

On another subject, did anyone see Ernie Bjorkman on Ellen today? Seems he's been taking classes for the past couple of years and is now looking for a job as a Veterinary Technician. Sounds like he's gonna land on his feet. Good for him!

P.S. I think I know why they fired him. He said he was making over $200,000 per year.

P.S. I think I know why they fired him. He said he was making over $200,000 per year.

Yes, but he wasn't building a 34,000 SF castle in Cherry Hills Village.

Interesting piece of mail from DISH Network arrived yesterday:

"Don't Let Your TV Go Dark! The Digital Transition Happens on or before February 17."

The flip side is a nice bit of Fear/Uncertainty/Doubt marketing. The offer is $9.99 for local channels only, a "welcome pack" of "over 17 more channels" for $9.99, or $14.99 for both. The deal is labeled "Not a promotional price," but of course the fine print says, "subject to change without notice," and you have to pay for the hardware and the installation, price unspecified.

Pity that the Congress may have taken the edge off it with the transition extension.

Me, I ain't buyin' it...


Jim McCauley

Am I reading this right? $14.99 for 17 channels plus locals? Do they require a contract if you bring your own equipment?

Any links to this offer??

Based on a Washington Post link http://projects.washingtonpost.com/congress/111/house/1/votes/41/

The Colorado delegation broke down as follows:

Voting for the Delay: Diana DeGette, Betsy Markey, Jared Polis, John Salazar

Voting against the Delay: Michael Coffman, Doug Lamborn, Ed Perlmutter

I have to apologize for my position that it was useless to contact our legislators, since it was based on my assumption that only the Senate could possibly do anything about the delay, and that none of the state's Democrats in congress would take a position that was not endorsed by the President. While I was correct about how our Senators would vote, Ed Perlmutter and House rules I was not aware of proved my underlying assumptions were wrong.

Before those of us opposing the delay celebrate too much, I have read that Congressman Waxman will try again, early next week, to get a delay. He will try to bring a bill to the floor under rules that only require a simple majority to pass.

I was flipping thru channels during the first commercial on the late news tonight and caught a program about the digital transition on KBDI 12-1. My program guide info said "to be announced", so maybe KBDI made a last minute program change to run this show. It probably started at 10:00, ended about 10:50.

It was produced by Iowa Public TV and featured two IEEE Society engineers. It went into detail, but at a level most could understand, about converter boxes, what signal strength and signal quality meant, picking out antennas, the effect of splitters and long cable runs, pre-amps, distribution amps, the cliff effect, etc.

If it's scheduled to run again and you have friends/relatives who don't know much about digital TV, I think it would be a good program for them to catch.

Am I reading this right? $14.99 for 17 channels plus locals? Do they require a contract if you bring your own equipment?

Any links to this offer??

DISH provides this link: http://dishnetwork.com/digitaltransition/

However, this particular offer is nowhere to be found at or below that link, so I can't answer your questions in regard to this particular deal.

They also provide a phone number: 1-866-735-4687.


Jim McCauley

If it's scheduled to run again and you have friends/relatives who don't know much about digital TV, I think it would be a good program for them to catch.

Good luck receiving 12-1 to watch it, though.

So does management not even talk to the news department?

Despite the millions of dollars it would cost the station to delay the transition, not to mention the costs associated with needing to maintain the old tower on Lookout, KDVR ran a "We need the delay" story on their news:

COLORADO - The defeat of a House bill to delay the switch from analog to digital television broadcasting could mean more Coloradans will see their TV sets go dark.

As many as 72,000 households in metro Denver who rely on free reception could see their TV's go black on February 17.

And even if you get a converter box that turns analog signals into digital ones, it doesn't mean your (sic) free of trouble--just ask the Leffler family of Westminster. "It's been very frustrating, very very frustrating," says Ivan Leffler.

He bought 3 converter boxes and three antennas for their older analog TV sets. "Boy, it took me a long time to figure out how to hook the boxes up," says Leffler. "We got it connected and from that point on we never could get a clear picture," says his wife, Betty.

So they gave up on the technology. "Last week, we just couldn't tolerate it anymore. We just went to cable," says Betty.

It's problems like this that has a broadcasting consultant worried about the House's decision to move forward with the conversion in less than three weeks.

"We're going to have people out in February on ladders working on rooftop antennas," says Byron St. Clair.

He says people will lose service. But converting in the dead of winter makes it worse.

The acting chair of the FCC, Michael Copps, said there are 6.5 million Americans who need help understanding what to do to make sure they get free TV reception.

He says an extension would afford them badly-needed time. But right now, it doesn't look like they're going to get it. Although, the House could bring the issue up for a vote at another time.

As for the Lefflers, their $160 investment to keep free TV, now sits in the shed in their backyard. "There are a lot more things I could have spent the money on," says Ivan.

http://www.kdvr.com/news/kdvr-dtv-back-012809,0,3781124.story

(Or watch the story (http://www.kdvr.com/video?autoStart=true&topVideoCatNo=default&clipId=3389086).)

It was great watching their reporter talk about how converter boxes would "turn their analog signal into a digital one."

I'd also love to know how you don't get a "clear picture" from a converter box.

Sigh…

I followed the link to the story: http://www.kdvr.com/news/kdvr-dtv-back-012809,0,3781124.story and noticed the following Q&A.
Q. Will I need to do anything special on February 17, 2009 to continue to view FOX31 KDVR?

A. On February 17, 2009 you will need to perform a simple "rescan" of the channels on your digital television and/or digital to analog converter box to automatically reprogram FOX31 KDVR to continue to view us. The Federal Communications Commission is requiring FOX31 KDVR to change our current digital configuration back to channel 8 on February 17, 2009. We will NOT be changing channel numbers though. We will always be known as "channel 8." See your digital television or digital to analog converter box manual on how to "rescan" your channels.
Does anyone have a clue what they could be talking about?
All documentation I can find indicates that KDVR-DT is on UHF 32 and stays there.
There would be no reason why someone would have to do a rescan for KDVR-DT, if they had ever done a scan for it.
Did they copy this from some other station, and put FOX31 KDVR in place of the other station?

Needless to say, the Democrats aren't giving up:

Hours after the House failure to delay the digital TV transition, the outlines of a plan for a new House vote next week started emerging.

The first step: A new vote in the U.S. Senate on a slightly revised DTV bill.

The Senate on Monday unanimously, without debate, approved legislation moving the analog switch-off date to June 12 from Feb. 17.

The House made some technical amendments and today unsuccessfully tried to suspend its rules to immediately pass that bill, but on a 258-to-168 vote failed to get the two-thirds majority needed.

The failure was more of a problem than usual for Democrats because a House Republican Conference starting tomorrow has the House out of session for the rest of this week. Democrats can put the bill back on the House calendar without requiring a two-thirds vote, but not until next week.

When the House does vote, the technical amendments mean the Senate still needs to approve the changes, potentially further delaying passage.

Tonight Senate Commerce Committee Chairman Jay Rockefeller, D-W.Va., decided to short-circuit one of the extra steps.

The Senate will consider as a new bill the House’s amended version, allowing the House to come back next week and its vote to be on sending a delay of the DTV date to President Barack Obama.

The outline emerged as House Energy & Commerce Committee chairman Henry Waxman, D-Calif., promised to work with the Obama administration on a variety of alternatives to delay the transition.

He also chastised Republicans, saying, “I am very disappointed the House Republicans blocked the DTV extension today. Their vote has wasted valuable time and will cause needless confusion for consumers.

“A clear majority in Congress supports postponing the transition and providing assistance to the millions of households that are unprepared. I am working with the Obama administration and congressional leadership to explore all available options,” he added.

http://www.tvweek.com/news/2009/01/effort_to_delay_dtv_switch_mov.php

Those "millions of households" will still be "unprepared" in June, not to mention whatever date the next bill they introduce in June pushes the date back to.

It's simply ridiculous, but not at all surprising.

Meanwhile:

Does anyone have a clue what they could be talking about?

All documentation I can find indicates that KDVR-DT is on UHF 32 and stays there.

There would be no reason why someone would have to do a rescan for KDVR-DT, if they had ever done a scan for it.

Did they copy this from some other station, and put FOX31 KDVR in place of the other station?

I would say so, given they've never been "Channel 8" so they can't go back to Channel 8…

I read yesterday (can't remember where) that operating an analog transmitter and tower costs upwards of $20,000 per month.

That means that a four month delay would cost a station as much as $80K that was not included in the budget. In this economy, with on-air staff leaving and consolidations in many operating areas, that could really hurt, and could mean additional layoffs.

I, too, support Obama. But not on this. Pull the plug and take the calls. The difference between 2-17 and 6-12 will hardly be noticable.

...Now if we could just get congress to mandate that if the CE companies want some of the voucher money that the set top boxes/tuners be made in the USA instead of China! Now that is something both Republicans and Democrats can agree on!:)

This is actually a pretty good idea but there's at least two problems with it:

1. Electronic companies have all but eliminated their manufacturing capability in the US. As a former employee of a contract manufacturing firm, I have seen this first-hand. The best you could probably achieve would be to have them assembled in Mexico.

2. The delay would be much longer than four months to get this through Congress! :rolleyes:

"[Waxman] also chastised Republicans, saying, 'I am very disappointed the House Republicans blocked the DTV extension today. Their vote has wasted valuable time and will cause needless confusion for consumers.' "

Baloney! Twenty-two Republicans voted with the Democrats on this bill; 13 Democrats voted against it. The measure would have been within three votes of passage with those 13 additional votes. Had the majority been unanimous, a little bit of "log-rolling" within a couple of state delegations would have been enough to convince enough Republicans in shaky districts to go along. Blaming the minority for their own failure to line up sufficient support is preposterous.

"Needless confusion?" No, sir: only Congress can create that!

This is actually a pretty good idea but there's at least two problems with it:

1. Electronic companies have all but eliminated their manufacturing capability in the US. As a former employee of a contract manufacturing firm, I have seen this first-hand. The best you could probably achieve would be to have them assembled in Mexico.

2. The delay would be much longer than four months to get this through Congress! :rolleyes:

3. The cost of a US-made CECB would be around $300.

Based on a Washington Post link http://projects.washingtonpost.com/congress/111/house/1/votes/41/

The Colorado delegation broke down as follows:

Voting for the Delay: Diana DeGette, Betsy Markey, Jared Polis, John Salazar

Voting against the Delay: Michael Coffman, Doug Lamborn, Ed Perlmutter

I have to apologize for my position that it was useless to contact our legislators, since it was based on my assumption that only the Senate could possibly do anything about the delay, and that none of the state's Democrats in congress would take a position that was not endorsed by the President. While I was correct about how our Senators would vote, Ed Perlmutter and House rules I was not aware of proved my underlying assumptions were wrong.

Before those of us opposing the delay celebrate too much, I have read that Congressman Waxman will try again, early next week, to get a delay. He will try to bring a bill to the floor under rules that only require a simple majority to pass.

I'm encouraged by Ed's vote. Perhaps my email to him did some good. I'll write him another email thanking him for his vote and asking him to hang in there in future votes. My faith in our system has received a lift after leaving me thinking individual action was a waste of time given the power that special interest have over our Congress and President.

... He bought 3 converter boxes and three antennas for their older analog TV sets. "Boy, it took me a long time to figure out how to hook the boxes up," says Leffler. "We got it connected and from that point on we never could get a clear picture," says his wife, Betty.
...
As for the Lefflers, their $160 investment to keep free TV, now sits in the shed in their backyard.
$160 for 3 converter boxes and 3 antennas is really cheap. I wonder if the rabbit ears they bought even had a UHF loop. How hard is it to hook a converter box up? Have the Lefflers ever had to hook up a VCR? Where did KDVR find these people?

It looks like KRMA-DT is off the air this morning. Not much news to those of you who can't receive it anyway.

$160 for 3 converter boxes and 3 antennas is really cheap. I wonder if the rabbit ears they bought even had a UHF loop. How hard is it to hook a converter box up? Have the Lefflers ever had to hook up a VCR? Where did KDVR find these people?

I think the "3 antennas" is the telling fact here. They apparently were using set-top antennas and I've made the point in this thread before that I expect that the biggest problem with transition will be those who get decent analog TV with a set-top antenna. Maybe when all are at full-power, folks will have a chance, but right now, DTV here just isn't reliable for set-top antenna users. I think that part of it is a ERP issue. But, as readers of this thread probably know, I think the computer modeling for DTV is about as reliable as that used to predict global warming. Just my 2 cents.

I posted before about not getting KMGH on my Samsung since their antenna problem. I have a ZAT-970A converter box connected to a DVR for time shifting and I can just get it. I recorded Lost and noticed a progressively worsening sink problem with the audio. As the show progressed the sound got further and further behind the video. This also happened last week watching Lost on the DVR. I have never seen this before. Anyone have an idea why this happens? Is it my poor signal strength on ch 7 or could it be my DVR? Does not happen on other channels.

I posted before about not getting KMGH on my Samsung since their antenna problem. I have a ZAT-970A converter box connected to a DVR for time shifting and I can just get it. I recorded Lost and noticed a progressively worsening sink problem with the audio. As the show progressed the sound got further and further behind the video. This also happened last week watching Lost on the DVR. I have never seen this before. Anyone have an idea why this happens? Is it my poor signal strength on ch 7 or could it be my DVR? Does not happen on other channels.

Sounds like there might be a problem with ch 7. We haven't been able to get 7.1 or the KRMA digital stations for some time now (analog is fine). Hoping that will change once everyone is able to go to full power.

David

I'm getting KRMA right now.

$160 for 3 converter boxes and 3 antennas is really cheap. I wonder if the rabbit ears they bought even had a UHF loop. How hard is it to hook a converter box up? Have the Lefflers ever had to hook up a VCR? Where did KDVR find these people?


The Lefflers are clearly fictitious. The media believe that there aren't just a few completely incompetent people out there, but that most people are this feeble of mind. They think that they can make up a scenario like this and everyone will buy it, be frightened by it, and demand a delay. Would you really expect anything else from the blow hole of the liberal left faction of our government, after all, they are now, at long last, truly doing the Messiah's work.

Sounds like there might be a problem with ch 7. We haven't been able to get 7.1 or the KRMA digital stations for some time now (analog is fine). Hoping that will change once everyone is able to go to full power.

David

I have daily signal records back to Jan 1 for KMGH and haven't seen a significant change over the entire time. It has fluctuated about +/- 5% depending on time of day, or whatever. My currnet reading is on the high end of my fluctuation range. In any event, the signal has been solid for me although it is the weakest of the LOM signals. TVfool predicts this to be my weakest, indicating 2-edge 26miles needing roof mount antenna. I get it just fine with my atic antenna.

I'm getting KRMA right now.

I'm getting a really broken up signal bouncing from 10% to 50% and it is showing 18-1, KRMJ-DT.
No signal on 6-1.

The Lefflers are clearly fictitious. The media believe that there aren't just a few completely incompetent people out there, but that most people are this feeble of mind. They think that they can make up a scenario like this and everyone will buy it, be frightened by it, and demand a delay. Would you really expect anything else from the blow hole of the liberal left faction of our government, after all, they are now, at long last, truly doing the Messiah's work.

Amen bro.

Yup, looks like KRMA swapped encoders with KRMJ. This morning they are showing up as 18-KRMJ on my TV. I guess they forget to reprogram the encoder before they put it online. And no audio on channels 18-2 or 18-3. Come on, guys, it's just not that hard!

From the Wash. Post: our friend
Senate Commerce Committee Chairman John D. Rockefeller IV (D-W.Va.) said he was disappointed "the House chose to stand in the way of a workable solution."
What a douc**bag ..........

The Lefflers are clearly fictitious. The media believe that there aren't just a few completely incompetent people out there, but that most people are this feeble of mind.
...ignoring the political stuff.

I have to believe that the Leffler's PARENTS either knew how to aim an antenna or how to get help from someone who could. This ain't rocket science.

...ignoring the political stuff.


Yes, I realize I'm in a very small minority here in Boulder County.

Ox, on another note, there was some discussion earlier about KRMA putting a repeater in or around Ft Collins and how those picking up both signals would handle the mapping. I think you mentioned some time ago that you are able to pick up both KRMA off the ice bridge (channel 18) and from the repeater (channel 24) in Boulder. If so, could you comment on your receivers and how well they handle the common mapping from two different signals?

I wrote Representative Perlmutter thanking him for his NO vote and urged him to stand strong.

Since the special interests are now trying an end run with a new bill back in the Senate, I wrote Senator Udall urging a NO vote on any delay. I tried to contact our new Senator Bennet, but he doesn't have an inter-active web page and he doesn't have email yet (unbelievable, but he has email for his re-election campaign), so the only way to reach him is via snail mail or a toll call. Oh well, I'll remember that come November 2010.

I just talked to John in broadcast engineering at KRMA. He said they are aware of the problem (alarms are going off) and they are working to resolve it.

The Lefflers are clearly fictitious. The media believe that there aren't just a few completely incompetent people out there, but that most people are this feeble of mind. They think that they can make up a scenario like this and everyone will buy it, be frightened by it, and demand a delay. Would you really expect anything else from the blow hole of the liberal left faction of our government, after all, they are now, at long last, truly doing the Messiah's work.Actually, I believe there is a Leffler family in Westminster. I had a young guy (in his twenties) with last name of Leffler working for me a few years ago. He was a technical type (a software test engineer). IIRC, he lived in Broomfield or Westminster. Perhaps he's Ivan and Betty's son.

I think I'll ask KDVR if they can put the Lefflers in touch with me, so I can help them set up their converter boxes. If they do, it might be a moot point since they've gone with cable, but I might be able to get some converter boxes I can resell on eBay. ;) Anyone else want to come along? :):p:D

Just in case anybody is interested here is a link to Senator Rockefellers "contact" page
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=15686354

Also I have attached the contact info for local stations from last weeks news paper article, sorry the scan is a little dirty (its digital!). I'm sure the station engineers don’t have time to take our calls, but some of them have been very helpful via e-mail (except KDVR (31), I have never received a reply from them).

I think I'll ask KDVR if they can put the Lefflers in touch with me, so I can help them set up their converter boxes. If they do, it might be a moot point since they've gone with cable, but I might be able to get some converter boxes I can resell on eBay. ;) Anyone else want to come along? :):p:D

See, the Lafflers are why the converter box program is in trouble. 3 boxes in one household (bet they had a coupon for each, when the limit is 2) and now they are all stored as junk in the garage. Those converter boxes could go to some poor family struggling to get coupon so they can keep their TV running. :D

Then maybe I can be the Robin Hood of converters - taking from the hoarders and giving to the poor, oppressed, elderly, infirm, and procrastinaters... No tights, though...:eek:

On a more serious note - does anyone know if any local group is organizing or asking for volunteers to help? I'm thinking something like DTV Line 9 on the morning of February 18. There's a lot of people that might be willing to offer their services. And from what I read about the early test in NC (?), the number of help requests dropped dramatically after the first day.

This will explain everything.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2f2Vgo5wdHY

Then maybe I can be the Robin Hood of converters - taking from the hoarders and giving to the poor, oppressed, elderly, infirm, and procrastinaters... No tights, though...:eek:

On a more serious note - does anyone know if any local group is organizing or asking for volunteers to help? I'm thinking something like DTV Line 9 on the morning of February 18. There's a lot of people that might be willing to offer their services. And from what I read about the early test in NC (?), the number of help requests dropped dramatically after the first day.

Not that I know of. I've helped a number of people set up, friends, family, neighbors. Run into 2 types of problems mostly. 1. They got a crappy brand of box, where possible having them exchange the brand of box (Magnavox, Apex and Digital Stream in the cases I've dealt with) for a Zenith DTT901 or Best Buy Insignia box (the same box as Zenith just a different brand name) cleared up the reception issues and brought in the missing channels.

2. Rabbit ear antenna will no longer be sufficient to pull in signal and they will need an attic or roof antenna. In a couple of cases current roof antenna may need to be replaced after transition. All are waiting to see what they get after transition before buying new antennas.

In a couple of cases I had to walk them through the fact they will have to buy an additional box to keep a VCR going (where they wanted to watch one channel and record another). In one case they appear to be SOL. They can pull in analog but no digital, so they're looking at going satellite since they live up one of the canyons.

Far and away the difference in box sensitivity has been the big issue. For those wanting to walk in local and buy I've been recommending the Zenith DTT901 from K-mart ($49.99) or DTVPal Plus from K-mart. Or the Insignia box with pass through from Best Buy. Both the Zenith and Insignia boxes are built by LG and have the same chipset. If they want to order online I'll also mention the Channel Master 7000.

Does anyone else think this bill to delay with the option of turning off analog if you choose, seems stupid? With the economy the way it is, why wouldn't you just turn it off and save money? There's no teeth to this. And, I would think that most stations in the US, have already booked crews to do the tower work to remove antenna's and towers. I bet those tower monkeys are booked for years. Re-booking would be tough.

If Analog only viewers have waited this long, they aren't going to be ready in June either. PULL THE PLUG!

At this point I don't see a delay helping. Originally, a June date would have been better. Having people mounting or replacing roof antennas in the dead of winter is asking for a lot of accidents. But 3 weeks out - makes little sense to delay. I feel lucky to be in an area where winter weather is usually mild enough I should be able to replace my roof antenna shortly after the switchover. Of course Murphy loves Denver and we'll probably get a blizzard and extended cold snap that'll interfere. ;)

My POV is that the what the NTIA really missed the boat on was the antenna/amplifier issue, cliff effect, and differences in box performance WRT to signal sensitivity.

Most people I've talked with that haven't made the transition, have heard conflicting things. They didn't want to spend the time and money and discover they did the wrong thing. They're not stupid, but they're not very tech fluent and aren't sure which things they heard are the correct ones. A few minutes of Q&A were all they needed. Some of the questions seemed obvious to me, but I can see how they weren't sure given the poor documentation and explanations they were working from.

Based on my equipment status, KRMA-DT seems to have fixed the main PSIP problems. The only issue left that I noticed is that the clock seems to be way off.

I was flipping thru channels during the first commercial on the late news tonight and caught a program about the digital transition on KBDI 12-1. My program guide info said "to be announced", so maybe KBDI made a last minute program change to run this show. It probably started at 10:00, ended about 10:50.

It was produced by Iowa Public TV and featured two IEEE Society engineers. It went into detail, but at a level most could understand, about converter boxes, what signal strength and signal quality meant, picking out antennas, the effect of splitters and long cable runs, pre-amps, distribution amps, the cliff effect, etc.

If it's scheduled to run again and you have friends/relatives who don't know much about digital TV, I think it would be a good program for them to catch.

Fabulous. Googling produced by Iowa Public Television and the IEEE Broadcast Technology Society.
website: http://www.iptv.org/dtv/2008/

They also have a joint site with the Iowa Journal
http://www.iptv.org/iowajournal/story.cfm/419


There are a number of videos available from Iowa Public TV
The first half hour is a basic primer:
http://www.iptv.org/video/detail.cfm/2926/tij_20081106_205
The second and third parts are more in depth and talk about antennas, amplifiers etc. If you go to the above link you'll see links to parts 2 and 3 in the related clips section. The one speaker name I saw was Gary Sgrignoli so it appears to be the one you saw?

As per channel 12 - they are rebroadcasting on the following dates/times
Friday, January 30 at 7:00 pm on Channel 12 / 12.1
Saturday, January 31 at 12:30 am on Channel 12 / 12.1
Sunday, February 1 at 3:00 am on Channel 12 / 12.1

""Receiving DTV" http://www.kbdi.org/tv_schedule/program_details.cfm?id=120090130190000
Many viewers who watch digital broadcast television using an antenna, whether it's on a digital television or an analog TV with a digital converter box, are having reception issues that will require them to make some changes to their antenna set-ups. This program explains the basics of digital broadcasting and shows viewers what they can do to get the best reception of their local stations. Expert advice is provided by Gary Sgrignoli, Special Engineering Consultant to the Institute of Electrical & Electronics Engineers (IEEE) and Bill Hayes, President of the Broadcast Technology Society of the IEEE. The program is hosted by Paul Yeager.

They will broadcast DTV Q&A: A KBDI Special Presentation (no further description given)
Wednesday, February 11 at 9:00 pm on Channel 12 / 12.1
Thursday, February 12 at 1:30 am on Channel 12 / 12.1

I just kludged together one of those coat hanger 4-bay antennas and hooked it up to the TV upstairs. The antenna elements are screwed into a scrap piece of drywall. The screws and washers are from my junk drawer and are various sizes. The hardest part was finding enough wire coat hangers. The spacings and lengths of the elements are are not precise and the feed line is not straight. I did buy a balum from Lowes. The antenna is leaning against a curtain and sitting on a dresser. The antenna points through a wall. It feeds a Zenith converter box. I get all major stations except for 7 (it breaks up) and the two PBS stations. If I added some aluminum foil for a reflector, I am sure that 7 would also come in good. If I added a pre-amp, I might even get the PBS stations.

The antenna even gets 11 from Ft. Collins, although it also breaks up.

I was flipping thru channels during the first commercial on the late news tonight and caught a program about the digital transition on KBDI 12-1.

The name of the show is Receiving DTV (http://www.kbdi.org/tv_schedule/program_details.cfm?id=120090130190000), and it is scheduled to be repeated 3 more times this weekend. Check the link for times. I only caught the last 15 minutes or so, but it looked like there was some good information.

I just kludged together one of those coat hanger 4-bay antennas and hooked it up to the TV upstairs.

Here is a good website/forum for DIY antenna:
http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=186

I built my first one, a double bay gray-hoverman rev1design, about two weeks before the LOM stations turned on last year. In anticipation of 7&9 moving back to VHF-high, in December I researched if there was modeling data on if this design would work. I found that significant work had been done on this design and a new rev2 version showed a better gain curve over 14-50 UHF freqs and further, forum member "300ohm" showed that adding two 28" element to the top and bottom produced reasonable gains in the VHF-high freqs. As a result, I built my second antenna, a single-bay gray-hoverman rev2 with the two added elements for VHF. My modeling showed 31" elements would be ideal for 7&9 so I used that instead of the 28" ones. I spent $7 and 40 minutes using 6' of 10-2 electrical wire, two pieces of cardboard, scotch tape and aluminium foil. I drew the antenna pattern on one piece of cardboard, bent the wire to match the pattern, taped it to the cardboard and soldered on the balun. The second piece of cardboard and aluminium foil was used for the reflector. I replaced my original build in the attic with this smaller version. Both antennas receive 2,4,7,9,12,20 & 31 solid, but the new design also shows 100% signal on analog 7&9. I don't get a usable KRMA from channel 18, but can receive their Boulder repeater on 24, although its weak and show some break-ups.

Anyway, a lot of good reading at that site, for those interested.

IMHO the inadequacy of previously adequate set-top antennas is going to be one of the big issues in the transition. Unfortunately, until all the stations are at full power and have their broadcast antennas in their final locations, folks won't know for sure whether or not they will need to get an attic or roof antenna.

Reception now is sketchy for set-top antennas, even in near proximity with good conditions. Case in point is a friend's mother in an assisted living home near 64th and Ward Road in Arvada. The facility is on high ground with LOS to LOM at less than 10 miles. My friend moved his mother's set-top antenna (don't know if it is amplified) to a window facing LOM. After a bunch of juggling he got all the DTV stations in that direction except KMGH-DT. In addition, KUSA-DT has good days and bad.

Obviously this situation doesn't lend itself to an attic or roof antenna option. They only hope that the final DTV transition will give them KMGH and KUSA reliably.

Regarding the CECBs, the most knowledgeable technical guys on the ATSC converter box thread claim (this was April through August last year) that since all of the CECBs must meet the same reception standards and those standards are at the current envelope of the technology, there really shouldn't be much difference in a given CECB's ability to receive versus another CECB. Consistent with that, CR ranks CECBs based on PQ and pretty much disregards any differences in reception. All that said, I personally went with the Zenith CECBs based on LG's past reputation for best in class ATSC tuners. My DTT900 and 901 are noticeably better than any of the other 5 ATSC tuners I have available.

Regarding the CECBs, the most knowledgeable technical guys on the ATSC converter box thread claim (this was April through August last year) that since all of the CECBs must meet the same reception standards and those standards are at the current envelope of the technology, there really shouldn't be much difference in a given CECB's ability to receive versus another CECB. Consistent with that, CR ranks CECBs based on PQ and pretty much disregards any differences in reception. All that said, I personally went with the Zenith CECBs based on LG's past reputation for best in class ATSC tuners. My DTT900 and 901 are noticeably better than any of the other 5 ATSC tuners I have available.

Ditto, the Zenith DTT901/Insignia NS-DXA1-APT (they're the same box) have had the best reception. The DTVPal Plus is very close. The Magnavox, Digital Stream, and Apex all missed channels the 901's picked up.

I am mystified at the difference in reception if they all meet the same reception standard. Is the standard that low and LG is exceeding it? Or does the LG handle multipath better or somesuch?

Here is a good website/forum for DIY antenna:
http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=186

I built my first one, a double bay gray-hoverman rev1design, about two weeks before the LOM stations turned on last year. In anticipation of 7&9 moving back to VHF-high, in December I researched if there was modeling data on if this design would work. I found that significant work had been done on this design and a new rev2 version showed a better gain curve over 14-50 UHF freqs and further, forum member "300ohm" showed that adding two 28" element to the top and bottom produced reasonable gains in the VHF-high freqs. As a result, I built my second antenna, a single-bay gray-hoverman rev2 with the two added elements for VHF. My modeling showed 31" elements would be ideal for 7&9 so I used that instead of the 28" ones. I spent $7 and 40 minutes using 6' of 10-2 electrical wire, two pieces of cardboard, scotch tape and aluminium foil. I drew the antenna pattern on one piece of cardboard, bent the wire to match the pattern, taped it to the cardboard and soldered on the balun. The second piece of cardboard and aluminium foil was used for the reflector. I replaced my original build in the attic with this smaller version. Both antennas receive 2,4,7,9,12,20 & 31 solid, but the new design also shows 100% signal on analog 7&9. I don't get a usable KRMA from channel 18, but can receive their Boulder repeater on 24, although its weak and show some break-ups.

Anyway, a lot of good reading at that site, for those interested.

How about a picture of yours?

Here's a pic of my first build. Just 22 awg wire stretched over a wood frame. This took way too long to build, 2-3 hours woodwork on table saw. Maybe that says something about my lack of skill. Anyway, I would have to climb into the attic with a light to get a photo of my second build. Maybe tomorrow.
http://i596.photobucket.com/albums/tt50/jr_ota/dsc_0026.jpg

I think you mentioned some time ago that you are able to pick up both KRMA off the ice bridge (channel 18) and from the repeater (channel 24) in Boulder. If so, could you comment on your receivers and how well they handle the common mapping from two different signals?
I have an LG 4200 set top box which receives both signal. If select either of the signals directly (by pushing 18-1 or 24-1 on the remote) then it tunes the signal and displays the result as "6-1". I have no idea which signal it chooses when I just select "6" on the remote.

I also have two other tuners (a DVICO Fusion Lite and Silicon Dust HDHomeRun) feeding my MythTV system. In this case MythTV is my receiver, and when run a scan it finds 18-1 first and then 24-1. The second occurrence overlays the first, so when I select "6" it uses the signal from RF 24.

...""Receiving DTV" http://www.kbdi.org/tv_schedule/program_details.cfm?id=120090130190000...A KBDI Special Presentation (no further description given)
Wednesday, February 11 at 9:00 pm on Channel 12 / 12.1
Thursday, February 12 at 1:30 am on Channel 12 / 12.1

Consider this: The only folks who currently receive KBDI either have cable or can already receive OTA digital transmissions, since KBDI's analog transmitter is kaput. The people who need this information the most are the ones who cannot receive it!

Proving yet again that our state's (and everyone else's) Senators are useless:

The prospects for a delay of the switch to all-digital broadcast TV signals increased as the Senate approved a revised piece of legislation that would permit pushing back the Feb. 17 DTV deadline.

With no debate, the U.S. Senate unanimously passed the bill in anticipation of a House of Representatives vote next Tuesday to delay the transition to June 12.

The Obama administration urged the House to act next week to delay the changeover.

“Poor planning and inadequate funding of the DTV conversion means that millions of Americans risk being left in the dark on February 17th," the administration said in a statement.


"This bipartisan legislation which again passed unanimously in the Senate tonight appropriately acknowledges the needs of both the American consumer and the public safety community. We urge the House to move quickly to pass this bill, and we will work with Congress to improve the information and assistance available to Americans as the nation moves to digital television.”

The Senate vote was expected after senators discovered that there were technical flaws in the original version of the legislation approved Monday night. The most recent Senate vote eliminates one obstacle to enacting a DTV delay when the House returns Monday.

The new Senate vote means the House will be sending any legislation it approves directly to President Barack Obama, speeding approval.

Republicans have opposed the DTV date shift as unnecessary and offered an alternative that would instead fix the problem with government coupons for converter boxes. Money for converter-box coupons has temporarily run out, leaving requests for 2.6 million coupons on a waiting list.

Senate Commerce Committee Chairman Jay Rockeller, D- W.Va., offered the new Senate bill with Sen. Kay Bailey Hutchison, R-Texas, the ranking Republican on his committee.

“The Senate has acted quickly and in a bipartisan way to put the needs of consumers first,” Mr. Rockefeller said. “The House will have a second chance next week to implement this delay, I am hopeful they will pass this bill so we can send it to President Obama.”


Sen. Hutchison said that while she and Sen. Rockefeller agreed to the extension, the deadline won’t be extended again after June. …

http://www.tvweek.com/news/2009/01/dtv_date_switch_facilitated_by.php

You wanna bet, after Consumer's Union or some other group whines that it's still not enough time?

The new legislation was passed explicitly so that when the House votes on it all that will be required is a simple majority, meaning if no votes change from last time the delay will pass.

Given Fox 31's recent story, how will a delay mean people like "The Lefflers" will be any more ready?

Their CECBs will still be sitting in their "backyard shed" collecting dust as a symbol of Federal Government waste.

This will explain everything.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2f2Vgo5wdHY

Hysterical! I hope the Disney lawyers don't screw the poster too severely.


Jim McCauley

FYI, KCEC added a second subchannel today. One channel has Univision programming, the other is Telefutura (owned by Univision).

Consider this: The only folks who currently receive KBDI either have cable or can already receive OTA digital transmissions, since KBDI's analog transmitter is kaput. The people who need this information the most are the ones who cannot receive it!

Ah, no I did not know. I get analog channel 12 via the channel 11 translator. I can't get 12 on digital in Boulder due to the Lookout Mountain - Squaw Mountain geography. Supposedly KDBI will put a digitial translator up sometime in mid to late 2009. What an irony that the station running the program is the least available at the moment. Maybe some will watch it on cable and decide to go OTA:-)

Have any of the Denver area stations committed to turning off their analog signal by Feb 18th if the transition delay bill passes?

Here's a pic of my first build. Just 22 awg wire stretched over a wood frame. This took way too long to build, 2-3 hours woodwork on table saw. Maybe that says something about my lack of skill. Anyway, I would have to climb into the attic with a light to get a photo of my second build. Maybe tomorrow.


Fun! I'm toying with building one to see if I can replace my roof antenna with an attic antenna. Where I am in Boulder may mean I have to keep a roof antenna since I don't have a good line of sight to Lookout Mtn. It'd be nice to have something not to subject to the big winds.

Fun! I'm toying with building one to see if I can replace my roof antenna with an attic antenna. Where I am in Boulder may mean I have to keep a roof antenna since I don't have a good line of sight to Lookout Mtn. It'd be nice to have something not to subject to the big winds.

I crawled into my attic and took some photos of my GH10 cardboard build that I described earlier. The two white rods, one on the top and one on the bottom, are the passive elements that I added for VHF-high. I got lazy and didn't strip the insulation from them, that's why they're white.

http://i596.photobucket.com/albums/tt50/jr_ota/01-31-09_1433.jpg

The next photo shows between the two pieces of cardboard. The front has the antenna taped to it and the back is the reflector which has aluminium foil taped to its backside. I just used an empty CECB box as a spacer between the two to give aprox 3 & 1/4" gap.
http://i596.photobucket.com/albums/tt50/jr_ota/01-31-09_1431.jpg

Have any of the Denver area stations committed to turning off their analog signal by Feb 18th if the transition delay bill passes?

2, 4, 6. 7, 9 12, 20 could, over coffee next Monday morning, make the decision to pull the plug 2-17. There would be a small crap storm, of course, but not much more than will happen 6-12. And they would save a ton of money.

No only will the delay cost them $$ to keep the analog towers humming, but there wil all be cost to re-tag all those PSAs with the new closing line:

"We really mean it this time. Really. For sure."

You would think that LCG or SCARE would push for an early shutoff to get rid of the deadly RF :D and get the old towers down sooner.

Anybody still in contact with LCG?

Ditto, the Zenith DTT901/Insignia NS-DXA1-APT (they're the same box) have had the best reception. The DTVPal Plus is very close. The Magnavox, Digital Stream, and Apex all missed channels the 901's picked up.

I am mystified at the difference in reception if they all meet the same reception standard. Is the standard that low and LG is exceeding it? Or does the LG handle multipath better or somesuch?

The Standard includes requirements for handling multi-path and according to the "experts" the technical requirements for the CECBs really pushed out the envelope. That is supposedly one of the reasons for the delay in the CECBs reaching the market.

On a related note, I received the latest CR in the mail a couple of days ago and it has a two page discussion regarding the DTV transition. They recap information about the CECBs and again state that their testing didn't reveal any significant differences in reception capability between the 35 or so CECBs that they tested. I'm not saying that you didn't see the differences that you saw, just that others we usually rely on didn't see any differences. Personally, I haven't tried any CECBs except my Zeniths, so I don't know if I'd see a difference.

The Standard includes requirements for handling multi-path and according to the "experts" the technical requirements for the CECBs really pushed out the envelope. That is supposedly one of the reasons for the delay in the CECBs reaching the market.

On a related note, I received the latest CR in the mail a couple of days ago and it has a two page discussion regarding the DTV transition. They recap information about the CECBs and again state that their testing didn't reveal any significant differences in reception capability between the 35 or so CECBs that they tested. I'm not saying that you didn't see the differences that you saw, just that others we usually rely on didn't see any differences. Personally, I haven't tried any CECBs except my Zeniths, so I don't know if I'd see a difference.

Fascinating. The avsforums on the individual models have lots of people describing their experiences with different boxes and channel reception, side by side. Based on those forum discussions I waited for the 901's to come out to buy the Zeniths. I also bought a DTVPal Plus(touted as being more sensitive than the TR-40/DTVPal) since I have an old TVGOS enabled DVR I'm partial to.

Could it be that the "no significant differences" is once the stations go to full power and maybe the box brand differences are only apparent because of all the differences in transmission power at the moment?

I wonder why there's such a difference between testing, and field deployment. I haven't followed the discussions closely but those that have been opening the boxes have spent a fair amount of time debating the merits of the various chipsets. I also wonder if there is a geographic distribution for reception issues.

I crawled into my attic and took some photos of my GH10 cardboard build that I described earlier. The two white rods, one on the top and one on the bottom, are the passive elements that I added for VHF-high. I got lazy and didn't strip the insulation from them, that's why they're white.



The next photo shows between the two pieces of cardboard. The front has the antenna taped to it and the back is the reflector which has aluminium foil taped to its backside. I just used an empty CECB box as a spacer between the two to give aprox 3 & 1/4" gap.


Ok, I'm convinced, that's easy enough to give it a go. If I understand right: 2 pieces of cardboard.Cover the back of the bottom cardboard in foil. The 2 white elements are 31" long pieces 10-2 electrical wire. 3 hangers worth of wire, and a balun, two 6" pieces of wire for above and below the balun. Separate the cardboard pieces by 3.25 in.
What overall dimensions of cardboard did you use?

Looks like Zap2it (http://www.zap2it.com)and TitanTV (http://www.titantv.com)both have accurate listings for KQDK-CA (39) now.

TitanTV also has listings for KQCK-DT (11.1). This station has never shown up as an option for me on Zap2it. Does it show up for anyone else? Since both stations follow the same schedule, it has never really posed a problem for me, but I'm just curious whether it shows up for people in other zip codes.

Ok, I'm convinced, that's easy enough to give it a go. If I understand right: 2 pieces of cardboard.Cover the back of the bottom cardboard in foil. The 2 white elements are 31" long pieces 10-2 electrical wire. 3 hangers worth of wire, and a balun, two 6" pieces of wire for above and below the balun. Separate the cardboard pieces by 3.25 in.
What overall dimensions of cardboard did you use?

Ok, a few points:
1) The active elements are made from 10-2 electrical wire, along with the 2 white passive 31" elements. You can buy 10-2 by the foot at Home Depot at about $1/foot. A 6' piece is enough for the entire build, since 10-2 has 3 conductors, two power plus ground. I used the ground for 1 active element, stripped the black for the other, and used the white for the two 31" rods.
2) the foil reflector is on a 30"x40" piece of cardboard. Its a split screen with a 1" gap in the center and 3" gap at the edges (see the link reference below.)
3) The front cardboard was just big enough to hold the active elements. I drew the design on the cardboard, bent the elements into shape and taped them on.
4) The two 6" pieces you refer to above and below the balun are not (supposed to be) part of the antenna. I just used spare wire to hold the front cardboard, the spacer box, and the rear cardboard together. I jammed the wire through the three pieces, bent it and twist-tied it. This should have been done with something other than wire so that it didn't become part of the antenna. Anyway, I was lazy and it was handy.

I included a link a few post back (previous page) to a bunch of GH development... DIY builds, etc.
I got the idea to use cardboard from this part (see post #11):
http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=95684

And later the poster showed a split reflector of aluminium foil (post #32)
http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=95684&page=3

The dimensions for the active elements are from here (I used the GH10)
http://www.jedsoft.org/fun/antennas/dtv/gh.html

And finally, the passive rods for VHF-high are shown here
http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=98619

Good luck, and have fun

Good job with the massive pixellation KUSA. The picture is just horrible.

Hello all - I'm considering a move to Denver from Birmingham, AL and wondered if someone on this board could give me a brief summary of the state of OTA in Denver. I'll summarize Birmingham as an example.

7 primary stations broadcasting digitally
FOX - 720p - no subchannels - Excellent picture quality
PBS - 1080i - three subchannels (SD simulcast, Create, I/E) - Average picture quality
NBC - 1080i - one subchannel (weather) - picture quality varies between good to decent; suffers severe macro-blocking during sports and "clay face" problem is often apparent.
ABC - 720p - one subchannel (weather) - Excellent picture quality
CW - 1080i - one subchannel (SD simulcast) Excellent picture quality
CBS - 1080i - one subchannel (weather) - Excellent picture quality
MNTV - 720p - one subchannel (SD simulcast) Good picture quality (lack of HD)
All transmitters are located in same general vicity, except ABC which has distant transmitters in opposite locations of the center of the city making aiming difficult.
Primary transmitter location is atop highest city mountain, however mountainous terrain of the area can make reception difficult in "backside" areas.
All primary stations are broadcasting in UHF range, with ABC being the VHF exception.
In addition, there are two religious broadcasters with digital signals (TBN plus four subchannels usually), however they are difficult to receive because the transmitters are not located in center of the city.

Many thanks in advance to anyone who devotes his time to answering my question.

Good job with the massive pixellation KUSA. The picture is just horrible.

A BUD solves that problem :D

I agree. The live warm-ups, some of the taped pieces, even the ads! Worse than usual. The low end from the stadium music sounds solid, though, in the background.

So should I set my audio to Dolby Digital or Dolby PL IIx? I can't tell the difference.

The video was so bad I think even the refs were having trouble seeing what was going on!

The picture quality was good on my 27" tube set. I didn't notice any sound problems, but the dogs were restless and making noise.

The video was so bad I think even the refs were having trouble seeing what was going on!

How many SD streams is KUSA doing?

Out of curiosity, I tuned in my local NBC affiliate to see is they had problems. They have one SD stream. It took quite a while before I saw things.

How many SD streams is KUSA doing?

Out of curiosity, I tuned in my local NBC affiliate to see is they had problems. They have one SD stream. It took quite a while before I saw things.


They have just one, accuweather. The game was unwatchable on my projector. Even at 10 feet from my 42 plasma, it was awful. Anything fast motion with a background was a total blur. Any kind of graphics would cause the picture to totally pixelate for a second. It is unbelievable they call themselves the HD leader. They are the HD lagger by a far margin.

They have just one, accuweather.

Sounds like they have an outdated mux, stuck in CBR mode, no stat muxing.

The chief engineer at the local NBC affiliated posted the following:

15.1 video bit rate:
maximum = 16.728 Mb/sec
"average" = 14.982
minimum = 14.829

15.2 video bit rate:
maximum = 3.091
"average" = 2.697
minimum = 1.197

Last year they did upgrade. Now they can tweek the stat mux for times like this.

FYI, KCEC added a second subchannel today. One channel has Univision programming, the other is Telefutura (owned by Univision).

Adding the second sub-channel totally hosed-up both. Before the second sub-channel came on line, I got 50-1 with excellent audio and video. Now both are screwed up. With my Dish ViP211, tuning to 50-1 gives me a blank screen and no sound. In addition, it freezes my 211 and I have to reboot it to get back to another channel or the EPG.

With my year old Samsung LCD, tuning to 50-1 gives me audio, but the video goes to periodic blank screens for a couple of seconds at at time. It is basically unwatchable. Tuning to 50-2 is worse. Sound is distorted, video, when not in one of its frequent blank screens jerks through frames and has severe breakups in part of the screen (usually the lower quarter of the screen). Signal strength on both on my Sammy is 7 out of 10 bars, so it doesn't seen to be a ERP problem.

Anyway, KCEC-DT went from good to useless. Not that I watch shows in that language, but if a metro-Denver station is going to do digital, I want to see them do it right.

I calculate, from the recording size, avg bitrate aprox 11.5Mb/s. Still, horrible pixelation during any motion or graphics change.

I just saw that D* has added DN3 channnel. What is that station?

I watched the game at my neighbor's house - 42" Vizio with indoor antenna - old round loop. Didn't notice any problems with the game - pixelation, breakups, etc.

I still believe there are adjustments being made to LOM stations. I've noticed over the past few days that KMGH's signal is so low it won't lock, especially before evening. And KUSA now is my strongest signal when a couple of weeks ago I had real problems with it. It seems like those of you who had problems with the game live north. Signal strength/signal quality issue?

I just saw that D* has added DN3 channnel. What is that station?

Reggie:

While I have no hard facts, here is what shows up in the DirecTV guide:

KCDO. Listed in the guide as an "Independent" station operating on channel 3.

It is currently in SD.

About half the daytime schedule is "Paid Programming" --infomercials-- and the other half seems to be cooking shows, extreme sports, INN (International News Network, I think; could be Independent New Network), etc.

Tonight's entire prime time lineup is listed as "Paid Programming".

I don't think it will stay in my lineup long. Seems a strange time to be launching a standard def station, but oh well.

Mike

I don't think it will stay in my lineup long. Seems a strange time to be launching a standard def station, but oh well.

The station is KCDO-3 in Sterling CO. It's been there for a long time, but until recently was a satellite for KTVD (and for KGWN before that). They've been trying to get carriage somewhere for a while, and are trying to get approval to build a really tall tower somewhere near Fort Morgan to put up a 1000 kW signal on channel 23.

- Trip

They've been trying to get carriage somewhere for a while, and are trying to get approval to build a really tall tower somewhere near Fort Morgan to put up a 1000 kW signal on channel 23.

Interesting. Wouldn't that adversely affect KDEO-LP (EWTN affiliate on channel 23) here in Denver, or are they moving to a different channel? They currently suffer from adjacent channel interference due to KFCT on channel 22, but I assume that will no longer be an issue after the DTV transition.

The station is KCDO-3 in Sterling CO. It's been there for a long time, but until recently was a satellite for KTVD (and for KGWN before that). They've been trying to get carriage somewhere for a while, and are trying to get approval to build a really tall tower somewhere near Fort Morgan to put up a 1000 kW signal on channel 23.

- Trip

Interesting. Comcast recently moved KRMT 41 from channel 19 to digital-only (channel 243) and moved their leased access channel from 20 to 19, so now there's nothing on channel 20 analog. KTVD 20 has been on Comcast channel 3 for years. I wonder if they might be planning on moving KTVD to 20 (to match OTA) in order to put KCDO on 3?

I watched the game at my neighbor's house - 42" Vizio with indoor antenna - old round loop. Didn't notice any problems with the game - pixelation, breakups, etc.

I still believe there are adjustments being made to LOM stations. I've noticed over the past few days that KMGH's signal is so low it won't lock, especially before evening. And KUSA now is my strongest signal when a couple of weeks ago I had real problems with it. It seems like those of you who had problems with the game live north. Signal strength/signal quality issue?

No issue, but down notably.

From my S3 TiVo's 100-point signal scale:

KCNC-DT: 97
KUSA-DT: 93
KMGH-DT: 90

KUSA-DT always used to be my weakest LOM signal of the three and KMGH-DT always used to be the strongest.

Since KCNC-DT got their antenna issue sorted they blast in here.

For the record, KMGH-DT used to come in here at about 97 on the same scale.

I saw a fair amount of pixelization on both my LCD and DLP, both OTA and via Comcast. Sounds like this is more of a local issue, from mrvideo's post above. I don't know if I didn't watch that many fast motion sports on KUSA before, or if they just didn't have that many in HD, but this is not something I've seen on the other stations, or ESPN.

I haven't yet, but plan to send a note to KUSA about how bad their picture is for events like this. I hope everyone else who noticed these things also corresponds to them.

Not horrible.. But not great here in Lakewood. I've seen better from the local HD affiliate.

Interesting. Wouldn't that adversely affect KDEO-LP (EWTN affiliate on channel 23) here in Denver, or are they moving to a different channel? They currently suffer from adjacent channel interference due to KFCT on channel 22, but I assume that will no longer be an issue after the DTV transition.

KDEO-LP would get bumped. As an LP station, they get no protection if a full-powered station attempts to move in on its channel.

Interesting. Comcast recently moved KRMT 41 from channel 19 to digital-only (channel 243) and moved their leased access channel from 20 to 19, so now there's nothing on channel 20 analog. KTVD 20 has been on Comcast channel 3 for years. I wonder if they might be planning on moving KTVD to 20 (to match OTA) in order to put KCDO on 3?

I doubt it, probably just cleared spectrum for more digital channels. KCDO would probably end up on digital cable as well, I'd guess.

- Trip

Not horrible.. But not great here in Lakewood. I've seen better from the local HD affiliate.

It was pretty horrible on D* as well, I've sent KUSA a note on it via their website.

I didn't think the HD PQ for the SB was "that" bad. But, I have seen better on the other local channels. I watched the SB on my old Sammy HLN DLP using my LG LST4200a receiver set on "Native" for resolution.

So tomorrow is the big day. I hope you all have been keeping those emails flowing to your Congressional Representative. I know they will probably delay Transition, but we need to try to stop it.

Anyone know if the new bill still allows stations the option to turn off analog early if they want to?

KDEO-LP would get bumped. As an LP station, they get no protection if a full-powered station attempts to move in on its channel.
KDEO has a construction permit for digital on channel 20 and an application to move its digital to channel 50.

KCDO analog has been on E* for some time now. Usually just infomercials.

Hi All,

Long time OTAer. I get KCNC-DT at consistently 100% (or "5 bars" depending on the TV I'm using). In fact, using only a 6 foot piece of coax I pick it up at 80-90% !! I also get most other stations at the 80-100% range.

So - my problem. On KCNC-DT (and only KCNC-DT) I get occasional breakups - may 1 or 2 every 5 minutes or so. The breakups themselves are strange also - the "blockies" that appear always seem to be around the "edge" of something moving.

Had these breaksup for months and months now - so they aren't new....

I've tried a range of different antenna's - including outdoor hi-gain ones, thru to $7.99 indoor ones. All cases I get (seemingly) great signal but with these breakups.

Also consistent across a range of TVs - though the breakups do seem to manifest different across each of the TVs (which I put down to the different error handling routines they each use).

Also tried 3db, 6db and 10db antennuators to see if it was "too much" signal I was getting... didn't seem to help though.

Has anyone got any useful suggestions for me to try? It's clearly not the transmission that is the problem, or others would have been reporting this also.

PS: If it helps, I'm in highlands ranch - at rough, Broadway and Wildcat Reserve Parkway.

Rob

The easiest artifact to see on KUSA's SB broadcast was quite often when shots changed for a brief moment the scene seemed almost SD in quality and then would seem to "pop in" in higher def.

I'm completely surprised they didn't dump Inaccuweather for the duration of the game; I guess Gannett really doesn't care.

Very good way to put it. I and my guests all noticed that when a scene change occurred the picture looked "blurry" for a second or so and then"popped" (to quote you) back to crystal clear High Def. We also noticed macro-blocking on fast moving scenes that would go back to crystal clear when nothing was moving.

Maybe this stuff is really complicated, but NBC (KUSA) is certainly putting out a bad product relative to other networks (CBS or FOX) when it comes to football. You would think that they would care about a SB broadcast at the very least. But... maybe not.

I think if SB viewers would have had a couple of more beers, the whole game would have looked blury.:p Or perhaps no one would have noticed.:D

I don't think there was ever any claim made by anyone that HDTV was supposed to be absolutely perfect. So there's a split second now and then when the motion in a football game is a little "blury". So what? Does that really take away from enjoying the game? All I know is it sure beats analog.

I think if SB viewers would have had a couple of more beers, the whole game would have looked blury.:p Or perhaps no one would have noticed.:D

I don't think there was ever any claim made by anyone that HDTV was supposed to be absolutely perfect. So there's a split second now and then when the motion in a football game is a little "blury". So what? Does that really take away from enjoying the game? All I know is it sure beats analog.

Yes, it beats analog. But at least KUSA, if not NBC, seems to be unable to match the HD quality of sports on the other channels. And for some of us, it is distracting enough to take away from enjoying the game. Some of us are more anal than others. ;)

Could KRMA be going back to Lookout, perhaps with LCG ????

From:
http://www.fortcollinsnow.com/article/20090109/NEWS/901089993/1062&ParentProfile=1054&title=TV%20or%20not%20TV%3F

"Pam Osborne, RMPBS spokesperson, said their tower is in a different place than other networks. Instead of being on Lookout Mountain, the RMPBS transmitter is on Mount Morrison. Because it is low to the ground, a hill and concrete structure blocks the signal to the northeast.

Osborne said the current plan is to relocate to Channel 20's tower on Mount Morrison, which is higher. However, this can’t take place until after Feb. 17. The worst case scenario is it will take between 60 to 90 days to make the transition.

“We are investigating another option that could change everything,” she said. “Things are changing daily.”

Osborne declined to comment further on what the other option may be. "

The easiest artifact to see on KUSA's SB broadcast was quite often when shots changed for a brief moment the scene seemed almost SD in quality and then would seem to "pop in" in higher def.



Yes, we watched the game on DirectTV and the same thing was happening. I'm wondering if that was a local or network problem, or if this was happening in other markets across the country. It was very noticeable every time they came back to the live action. We never saw the same thing happening during the regular season or playoffs.

I don't think there was ever any claim made by anyone that HDTV was supposed to be absolutely perfect.

Well, if you believ the DTV transition public service spots, digital TV supplies crystal clear images. Macroblocking does not provide crystal clear images.

So yes, a claim is made about digital quality.

I'm wondering if that was a local or network problem, or if this was happening in other markets across the country.

Not a network feed problem.

Posted by mrvideo:
Well, if you believ the DTV transition public service spots, digital TV supplies crystal clear images. Macroblocking does not provide crystal clear images.

So yes, a claim is made about digital quality.
Yeh, digital TV claims to be much better than analog. And it is. What I said is that no one has claimed it is "perfect".

What I said is that no one has claimed it is "perfect".

To some, including me: crystal clear = perfect

The easiest artifact to see on KUSA's SB broadcast was quite often when shots changed for a brief moment the scene seemed almost SD in quality and then would seem to "pop in" in higher def.

I see this every day while watching 9News. Turn on the 10 pm news and wait for a switch from a static image of text to a talking head and you'll see a very blurry image for a second. I assume it's the variable bit rate encoders sending more bits to the weather sub channel during the static image and needing a second to reverse itself.

I watched on my brothers new 52" 1080P with 5.2 surround system with
a Comcast digital cable/DVR box.
I noticed that when the video blurred the audio also had a "static" sound,
I first thought it was someone’s cruel idea of "special effects".

I figure it probably took many years to get the major bugs worked out of analog TV, I think the process will happen much faster with digital broadcasting, the sooner we “go live” the quicker we will get their.

The easiest artifact to see on KUSA's SB broadcast was quite often when shots changed for a brief moment the scene seemed almost SD in quality and then would seem to "pop in" in higher def.

I'm completely surprised they didn't dump Inaccuweather for the duration of the game; I guess Gannett really doesn't care.

Happens on their live newscasts, too.

I still think it is funny that the opening graphics on their news programs, touting the high-def signal, are created and broadcast in less than 1080i.

Adding the second sub-channel totally hosed-up both. Before the second sub-channel came on line, I got 50-1 with excellent audio and video. Now both are screwed up. With my Dish ViP211, tuning to 50-1 gives me a blank screen and no sound. In addition, it freezes my 211 and I have to reboot it to get back to another channel or the EPG.

With my year old Samsung LCD, tuning to 50-1 gives me audio, but the video goes to periodic blank screens for a couple of seconds at at time. It is basically unwatchable. Tuning to 50-2 is worse. Sound is distorted, video, when not in one of its frequent blank screens jerks through frames and has severe breakups in part of the screen (usually the lower quarter of the screen). Signal strength on both on my Sammy is 7 out of 10 bars, so it doesn't seen to be a ERP problem.

Anyway, KCEC-DT went from good to useless. Not that I watch shows in that language, but if a metro-Denver station is going to do digital, I want to see them do it right.


This is a temporary situation with Telefutura and will be straightened out in the next day or two. I just received equipment that will fix the problem, but it will take a couple of days to get installed.

Thanks for the heads up. We didn't see any problem with the signal until you posted and the Sat. local collection facilities were not having problems.

The House will vote again tomorrow on delaying the DTV cutoff date. This time they only need a simple majority, not the two-thirds the last time around. I hate to say it, but I think it pass.

More info here (http://www.cnn.com/2009/TECH/02/03/digital.delay/index.html)

Could KRMA be going back to Lookout, perhaps with LCG ????

Not likely. The big change hinted at by Ms. Osborne was announced on 13 January 2009: RMPBS will install a digital translator, K47LY-D, on Horsetooth Mountain southwest of Fort Collins. It is likely to solve most KRMA-DT reception problems for Northern Colorado communities. According to Ms. Osborne, the translator should be operational on or near the transition date.

If I get a firm date, I will post it here. However, it is likely that RMPBS will make an announcement.


Jim McCauley

The House will vote again tomorrow on delaying the DTV cutoff date. This time they only need a simple majority, not the two-thirds the last time around. I hate to say it, but I think it pass.

More info here (http://www.cnn.com/2009/TECH/02/03/digital.delay/index.html)

I was wondering which special interest groups were behind the politics of delay; now I know. Given the nature of those groups and the present political power structure, enactment of a delay is a sure thing.

I only hope the latest bill still allows the stations to shut off analog on 2/17/09 if they want to, and I hope there are some local stations with the wherewithal to do so.

Here is a small excerpt from KMGH's FCC filing dated 2-04-09:
The Station’s analog termination directly is related to the transition. For almost 3 years – since Congress in the Digital Television and Public Safety Act of 2005 established February 17, 2009, as the deadline for all television stations to terminate analog broadcast service – the Station has planned to transition as of February 17, 2009. The Station accordingly long ago planned construction of its post-transition facilities. The Station plans to undertake the February 17, 2009 early transition in conjunction with other stations in its market. The Station thus believes that this instant analog termination is necessary for purposes of the transition.
Please note the second to last sentence.

Looks like Congress can pass any delay it wants to but the LCG stations will be terminating analog on 2-17-09 anyway.

Here is a small excerpt from KMGH's FCC filing dated 2-04-09:

Please note the second to last sentence.

Looks like Congress can pass any delay it wants to but the LCG stations will be terminating analog on 2-17-09 anyway.

I was searching around and just found the KMGH Legal STA dated 2/2/09 myself:http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/cdbsmenu.hts?context=25&appn=101293217&formid=911&fac_num=40875

You beat me by a few minutes. This looks like good news for those of us who want the Transition to be over with. Your guess that all of the LCG are going to make a coordinated decision makes sense to me. I look forward to similar notices from the rest of the group.

KDVR has issued a Legal STA also with a 2/3/09 date: http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/cdbsmenu.hts?context=25&appn=101293491&formid=911&fac_num=126
I presume KWGN will follow, or has followed, the KDVR example.

I changed my search a little and noticed KFCT(Fort Collins) with a 2/3/09 date on their Legal STA :http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/cdbsmenu.hts?context=25&appn=101293492&formid=911&fac_num=125

I presume there can be a delay between the time the documents are filed and they get posted. The status date for all of the Legal STAs is 2/4/09 even though they have 2/2/09 and 2/3/09 dates in the forms.

I remember a line from an old song (and a movie by the same title) "Suppose they gave a war and nobody came". I thought of that line when I started to think that "Suppose they gave a transition delay and nobody (or nearly nobody) delayed" might become the story soon after February 17th.

I wonder if some stations are holding back on their Legal STA's until now so that the delay legislation isn't modified to prevent all of these early transitions.

Anyway, regardless of what happens elsewhere, I'm glad that KMGH's STA indicates that there are probably going to be more of these STA's coming for the Denver market. I hope to see KUSA follow up real soon now! It looks like the Denver transition will be happening on February 17th, regardless of whether or not the current delay legislation is approved or not.

I suspect that if the legislation is approved tomorrow that the FCC is going to see a bunch of these Legal STA's filed before the President signs the legislation.

I was looking for a filing from KBDI but didn't find anything. There is a post on another thread that indicates KBDI plans to repair its analog (I couldn't find anything on the FCC site) and I don't see any filings for KRDO, which is blocking KBDI from moving its digital to channel 13.

That then blocks KPJR from starting operations on channel 38. I also wonder when KCDO will begin digital operations on channel 23. That will knock KDEO analog off since they are LP and have no protection from full power stations. For those of you up north, KLWY, Fox 27 out of Cheyenne, plans to flash cut full power digital on 2-17-09.

I wonder what KRMA plans to do. I wonder what sCARE wants.:D

I think it would be hilarious if 75% or more of the analog stations filed STA's to shut off analog to completely negate the extension.

I was looking for a filing from KBDI but didn't find anything. There is a post on another thread that indicates KBDI plans to repair its analog (I couldn't find anything on the FCC site)

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/prefill_and_display.pl?Application_id=1293373&Form_id=910&Facility_id=22685

I also wonder when KCDO will begin digital operations on channel 23. That will knock KDEO analog off since they are LP and have no protection from full power stations.

They told the FCC it won't be before next summer, due to the weather in Colorado at this time of year.

- Trip

I think I saw a bunch of the folks who aren't ready for the DTV transition standing in line outside of Denny's yesterday.

I think I saw a bunch of the folks who aren't ready for the DTV transition standing in line outside of Denny's yesterday.

Now that's funny! It's still early in the morning, but that comment makes my day!

Now that's funny! It's still early in the morning, but that comment makes my day!

Hey, I'm ready, but a free $6 breakfast is a free $6 breakfast!

I've waited in longer lines for much less expensive freebies before… :D

Here is a small excerpt from KMGH's FCC filing dated 2-04-09:

Quote:
The Station’s analog termination directly is related to the transition. For almost 3 years – since Congress in the Digital Television and Public Safety Act of 2005 established February 17, 2009, as the deadline for all television stations to terminate analog broadcast service – the Station has planned to transition as of February 17, 2009. The Station accordingly long ago planned construction of its post-transition facilities. The Station plans to undertake the February 17, 2009 early transition in conjunction with other stations in its market. The Station thus believes that this instant analog termination is necessary for purposes of the transition.
Please note the second to last sentence.

Looks like Congress can pass any delay it wants to but the LCG stations will be terminating analog on 2-17-09 anyway.

I saw a crawl across the screen from KMGH yesterday evening stating that "KMGH Intends to discontinue analog broadcasts on February 17"

I certainly hope they all follow the KMGH lead!

I recollect seeing a crawl similar to KMGH's on KCNC's late news a couple times last week. Can't remember exact wording, you tend to blow off these PSA's after a while, like watching raindrops in an all day rain.

I recollect seeing a crawl similar to KMGH's on KCNC's late news a couple times last week. Can't remember exact wording, you tend to blow off these PSA's after a while, like watching raindrops in an all day rain.

I was thinking that if one major station didn't discontinue their analog service on Feb 17 it would be KCNC. Aren't they owned and operated by CBS? I would have thought that when the networks told the Obama administration that they supported a transition delay that would imply that they wouldn't transition the stations that they owned. Of course, I would love it if they did; it would make the transition delay even more of a farce.

Has anyone seen a crawl on KUSA indicating an analog shutdown date?

I was thinking that if one major station didn't discontinue their analog service on Feb 17 it would be KCNC.And that would be fine with me, since their current frequency isn't needed by anyone else and they already are on their post-transition digital frequency.

And that would be fine with me, since their current frequency isn't needed by anyone else and they already are on their post-transition digital frequency.

I agree with you that keeping KCNC on the air for a while seems to have no technical issues.

However, isn't sCARE going to want the KCNC tower down and the building replaced by greenery by 2/18/09 if they turn off the digital transmiier on 2/17/09. There is also the CO2 from the electricity it uses to worry about.

Seriously, keeping KCNC analog operational for a while for public service broadcasts would be fine with me.

I think if SB viewers would have had a couple of more beers, the whole game would have looked blury.:p Or perhaps no one would have noticed.:D

I don't think there was ever any claim made by anyone that HDTV was supposed to be absolutely perfect. So there's a split second now and then when the motion in a football game is a little "blury". So what? Does that really take away from enjoying the game? All I know is it sure beats analog.

My issue is that they proclaim themselves as the HD Leader, when clearly they have the worst picture quality of any local channel.

http://clerk.house.gov/floorsummary/floor.html?day=20090204&today=20090204

Looks like the vote to delay transition passed. :( But it's hard to read, since it's in Congress-speak.

Considered as unfinished business.

S. 352:
to postpone the DTV transition date

Motion to reconsider laid on the table Agreed to without objection.
On passage Passed by the Yeas and Nays: (Roll No. 52).

Yep.

Now we'll see how many stations do switch.

I highly suspect that our Democrat Congresscritters, Democrat state legislators and Democrat Governor will very heavily "discourage" any of the LCG stations from switching "early" as it would "create more confusion" with the new date.

Likewise, no LCG station will dare end analog early "just in case" one of their competitors leaves their analog transmitter up; if you were KUSA would you risk losing viewers because say KCNC decided to leave their analog transmitter turned on?

kenavs, I raised the issue of the hundreds of thousands of pounds of CO2 from largely coal-fired power plants that will be emitted as a reason even environmentalists should want the switch to occur on time; funny how environmental effects only become an issue when Republican bills are involved…

...Likewise, no LCG station will dare end analog early "just in case" one of their competitors leaves their analog transmitter up; if you were KUSA would you risk losing viewers because say KCNC decided to leave their analog transmitter turned on?
…
If the decision is based on economics, I think that any station with an operational digital station would turn off analog.

If I were a potential advertiser, I would have to consider the demographics of the viewers that were lost, for more than a few days. I doubt that a station salesperson could convince me that it made sense to pay "full price" to reach them. If someone could not be convinced to, or could not afford to, spend $100 or so on a converter and maybe an antenna, by over a year of advertising, why would I think they would be willing to and/or able to spend enough buying my product or service to justify the cost of paying for an ad to get to them? (I am taking about reputable businesses, as opposed to ambulance chasing lawyers, and the like.)

Some might consider that a highly mercenary view, but TV stations and their advertisers are mostly businesses and not charities.

I highly suspect that our ....
let's keep it clean here.

When Will KMGH Make DTV Switch?http://www.thedenverchannel.com/technology/18642641/detail.html

Key paragraph
"KMGH-TV is currently reviewing details of the DTV legislation passed by Congress on Wednesday. As soon as we have reviewed the legislation and received guidance from the FCC, we will develop a plan for the KMGH digital transition and make those plans available to the public," said KMGH Station Manager Byron Grandy.

This may not be good.

i think i saw a bunch of the folks who aren't ready for the dtv transition standing in line outside of denny's yesterday.

rotf&lmao!

KUSA just reported on their 5:00 news that they haven't made a decision on when to end analog.

KMGH has a filing with the FCC to terminate analog on 2-17-09, as several of us reported earlier. I presume they made that filing in anticipation of the bill to delay the shutoff passing. Byron Gundy's statement, IMO, is nothing more than saying something while saying nothing. I suspect he just wants to preface KMGH's 2-17-09 shutoff with some good PR, like they really considered the situation after today's vote, when they have already made their decision. Except for the few of us on AVs, I suspect no one is aware of KMGH's recent FCC filing.

We'll see if some filings show up for KCNC and KUSA tonight on the FCC site. They post after midnight, Eastern time. I wouldn't be surprised if KCNC keeps their analog on now since it's on channel 4 and uses much less ERP than 7, 9, or 20, and because they're an O&O (the networks played along with the politics of this).

KUSA just reported on their 5:00 news that they haven't made a decision on when to end analog.

To me, only 7 and 9 (and maybe 13) really matter. I don't care if the others transition on the 17th or in June. I just want the stations on their final bands so I can make final antenna adjustments/changes if needed.

I couldn't decide on whic news cast to watch at 5, channel 7 or 9. I chose 7 and they didn't say one word about the transition or the vote to delay. Guess I chose wrong. I'm now watching 9 at 6:00 to see if they repeat their story.

KUSA stated on their 6:00 news that they were going to have an interview with one of the CO reps who voted nay on their 10:00 news. That would be Perlmutter or the one of the two Republicans.

KUSA stated on their 6:00 news that they were going to have an interview with one of the CO reps who voted nay on their 10:00 news. That would be Perlmutter or the one of the two Republicans.
When I saw the KMGH and KDVR filings this morning I was really positive. I was looking forward to finding that KUSA and KTVD had also filed Legal STAs, that would show up early tomorrow. I thought KMGH and KUSA would be on low VHF on 2/18/09. I checked on KRDO and their last 387 indicated that their digital station was in final configuration and they would end analog on 13 on 2/17/09. That made me optimistic that KRDO might have elected to file for a 2/17/09 end to analog, and that KBDI-DT would be able to move on 2/18/09 to 13. I thought that KTVD would be turning off analog 20, and KRMA-DT might even be able to use that antenna, which would probably give them very good coverage

The KMGH story got me nervous.

I watched the KUSA 6:00PM news report on the vote and the coverage sure gave me the feeling that they are not going to turn off analog until 6-12-09. Did anyone else have a different reaction?

Right now, I think we may be in the same situation we are right now until June. I sure hope I am wrong about that.

let's keep it clean here.

I'm not trying to be "unclean" here, but rather I'm simply trying to reflect that it was our Democrat President and Democrat Congress that pushed the delay bill through (admittedly aided and abetted by the Republicans in the Senate who refused to see the stupidity inherent in it and thus went along with the unanimous vote there.)

As we now have a Democrat-controlled state legislature and a Democrat in the Governor's mansion, that makes it even more likely that were our local stations to decide to switch early, pressure might be applied to make them reconsider their decision.

It's not meant to be an explicit political statement, but more of a reflection that the party in power in Washington wanted this and that same party is in power at the state level (as well as at the city level, for that matter.)

It would greatly benefit the Denver stations to be seen to be "playing ball" with the Government at the city, state and federal levels and delay their switchover until at least the new date (or should I say this new date; despite what they say you know that once groups protest in June it will be pushed back yet again because of "the economy" or, if you've read the comments of two FCC commissioners, Copps and Adelstein, because there aren't "boots on the ground" to help people hook up their converter boxes.).

Frankly, aside from money, it's all "upside" to the broadcasters because they look like they're cooperative and are "understanding" that their viewers need more time for the transition, and the (in my opinion, inaccurate) numbers of viewers "not ready" aren't in the noise but are actually enough to be the difference between positions in the ratings for local newscasts for February sweeps.

You'd think the broadcasters would know better, but given their de-facto spokesman, the President of the NAB, supported the delay, I guess not.

I don't know if anyone here gambles, but I wouldn't put a whole lot of faith in that June date, either.

I feel a tiny bit more optimistic now that I watched the 10PM version of 9 news. This report included several items I don't recall being in the 6PM version.

People with converters are having trouble with the weak signal strength of the digital transmitter. This can't be fixed before transition.
The percentage of Coloradans ready for transition is better than the national average.
Stations can transition early.
KUSA has not yet decided when they will transition.

They seem to have left the door open for not delaying, and provided a reason why it would be good to transition soon and that transition may not be too big a problem in Colorado. The interview with Congressman Lamborn got in the points that some people will never be ready and others will only get ready when the deadline hits.

Was able to flip around and catch every local stations 'take' on the DTV delay. It seems obvious that both KMGH and KUSA/KTVD are certainly considering still sticking with Feb. 17th, or some other date before June. Both stations did stories with some actual 'meat' to them, and 9 actually had it as their lead story. KCNC, KWGN and KDVR all seem very content to keep analog going until the delay date in June as all did very quick mentions of the change. Would be an interesting time to be a fly on the wall at either Ch 7 or Ch 9 over the next few days.

I just finished checking the FCC database. KMGH, KFCT, and KDVR all filed Form 387, dated February 5, and stated that they are shutting off analog on 2-17-09. Unless these filings are "insurance" to allow the stations to keep their options open, I think they will shut down analog on 2-17-09.

WGN in Chicago likewise filed a Form 387 dated February 5. They own KWGN. Perhaps KWGN also filed but it hasn't posted on the FCC database yet.

Besides KWGN, there weren't any filings for any of the other Denver stations, although I forgot to check the Spanish stations. KWHD shut off analog on channel 53 about two weeks ago.

KTVD has always come in solid for me, but the signal strength has always been somewhat low at a very steady 69 on my main E* receiver. For the past couple of days, my signal strength has been a solid 82, which indicates that they may have boosted power. I'm reading this as a step towards KTVD shutting off analog early.

I'm thinking that LCG is a partnership. If KMGH is doing something, which I think they are, it seems like they would be doing it in concert with their partners - sharing tower crews, etc. Since KCNC is already (purportedly) at full power, KTVD may have increased power, and KUSA admits their current channel 16 signal is the pits, I think that KTVD and KUSA will shut off analog early in conjunction with KMGH's apparent publicly filed intentions and KCNC may nightlight.

While watching LOST and the 10 P.M. news kmgh scrolled their intent to go ahead with the Feb 17. KDVR did the same during thier news.

I suspect the scrolls and ads you saw don't make a difference.

Yesterday Adele on KUSA explained that viewers will continue to see ads and crawls mentioning the Feb. 17 date because it is what is required by the FCC.

This is because until Obama signs it, the transition date has not officially changed, and the FCC regs say the stations must run ads giving the legally mandated transition date.

In short, "consumer confusion" is what the new date guarantees.

This morning on the 6am KUSA news Kyle Dyer said that they were obligated to the FCC to continue publishing a transition date of 2-17 until the president signs the paper.

She also acknowledged that the delay guideline allows stations to make the switch before June 12 and that KUSA will notify the public when they make a decision on their transition date.

I'm hoping that 7 and 9 will keep the Feb 17th date for the analog shutdown and switch of their digital signals back to VHF. My upstairs TV/Antenna gets their analog signal fine, but their digital signal are on the cliff and unwatchable.

I would like the PBS stations to transition also, but I seldom watch them, so it's not as big a deal to me.

I would like the PBS stations to transition also, but I seldom watch them, so it's not as big a deal to me.

I remember when 6 was the unchallenged leader in HDTV. No more. They broadcast the Super Bowl in HD when the network affiliate couldn't.

Much has changed.

Monday night I DVRed an American Experience ep about the Polio epidemic and scare of the 40s and 50s. I was a part of the first generation to get the vaccination, lining up in the first grade for the shots. I wanted to see this special.

Next day, I found that 6-1 had a non HD picture and no audio.

Maybe next time. Or sometime.

I remember when 6 was the unchallenged leader in HDTV. No more. They broadcast the Super Bowl in HD when the network affiliate couldn't.

Much has changed.

Monday night I DVRed an American Experience ep about the Polio epidemic and scare of the 40s and 50s. I was a part of the first generation to get the vaccination, lining up in the first grade for the shots. I wanted to see this special.

Next day, I found that 6-1 had a non HD picture and no audio.

Maybe next time. Or sometime.

KRMA has been running a screen crawl from time to time indicating that they've had audio issues recently which have been fixed. They say that rescanning with your converter box is necessary to completely fix the problem.

That being said, I too am frustrated that continue to broadcast a SD frame with letterboxed content...feels like I've got a tv within a tv on my LCD screen.

David

Italics are mine.



"Rocky Mountain PBS will not make the digital TV switchover on February 17. We are working with the other Colorado broadcasters to agree on a date on which all of us will make the transition to minimize confusion. We will keep you posted. Thank you for your patience and understanding."

Looks like we continue to wait.

KRMA has been running a screen crawl from time to time indicating that they've had audio issues recently which have been fixed. They say that rescanning with your converter box is necessary to completely fix the problem.

That being said, I too am frustrated that continue to broadcast a SD frame with letterboxed content...feels like I've got a tv within a tv on my LCD screen.

David

Except that by Tuesday night, the audio was back. So who knows?

Just watched the 11am news on KWGN, and they said that despite the DTV delay, they will be discontinuing analog on February 17th. Sounded pretty official. I certainly hope that's the case. If so, I assume it will apply to KDVR as well. Hopefully, the other stations in town will follow their lead.

Given KRMA currently doesn't have a digital signal that's of much value, it's probably a good thing they're staying on. They'd be wise to leave analog 6 going until something happens with their final signal.

- Trip

Italics are mine.



"Rocky Mountain PBS will not make the digital TV switchover on February 17. We are working with the other Colorado broadcasters to agree on a date on which all of us will make the transition to minimize confusion. We will keep you posted. Thank you for your patience and understanding."

Looks like we continue to wait.

Sounds to me like RMPBS is just covering their a** because they know that they are not ready.

Sounds to me like RMPBS is just covering their a** because they know that they are not ready.

Probably. But back when, when they were broadcasting HD from Republic Plaza, they had the best PQ in town, even if it was mostly the PBS loop.

What happened?

KRMA has always said that it would take them up to a couple months after Feb 17 to move their antenna higher up and go to full power DTV, since they have to wait for UPN 20 to vacate that tower.

So the message doesn't really change things for KRMA-DT (and it kind of makes sense for them to keep their analog as long as their DTV signal is weak). But it sounds like they're "conspiring" with other stations to delay the changeover date for other stations too.

Sounds to me like RMPBS is just covering their a** because they know that they are not ready.

Just watched the 11am news on KWGN, and they said that despite the DTV delay, they will be discontinuing analog on February 17th. Sounded pretty official. I certainly hope that's the case. If so, I assume it will apply to KDVR as well. Hopefully, the other stations in town will follow their lead.

KWGN and KDVR have the most motivation to switch on the 17th, because they can't go full power digital UNTIL they shutoff their analog service, since they have to remove their analog equipment to make room for the equipment necessary to go full power digital. Note that KDVR has already submitted a STA indicating that they plan to terminate analog on 2/17.

Italics are mine.



"Rocky Mountain PBS will not make the digital TV switchover on February 17. We are working with the other Colorado broadcasters to agree on a date on which all of us will make the transition to minimize confusion. We will keep you posted. Thank you for your patience and understanding."

Looks like we continue to wait.

Actually, they were never scheduled to make what I would consider to be a "digital TV switchover on February 17". They have been providing a digital signal, with plenty of issues, for years. At one time, they were required to turn off their analog signal before 2/18/2009, but I don't consider that to be a "digital TV switchover".

If we take their own "digital TV switchover" phrase litterally, that means the delay they are participating in would delay the availability of the Spanish language 6-2 subchannel.

Also, according to their latest 387, which looks to have been submitted on 2/4/09 and has a 2/5/09 status date, they were going to continue broadcasting SOMETHING on the analog channel under the nightlight program.
Exhibit 3
Description: ANALOG NIGHTLIGHT

ROCKY MOUNTAIN PBS FILED AN APPLICATION FOR SPECIAL TEMPORARY AUTHORITY ON JANUARY 5, 2009 IN FILE NO. BLSTA-20090105AHL TO PARTICIPATE IN THE 'ANALOG NIGHTLIGHT' PROGRAM, PURSUANT TO THE NPRM IN DOCKET NO. 08-255 (REL. DEC. 24, 2008).

Since they were signed up for nightlight, and, as far as I know, channnel 6 was otherwise scheduled to be abandoned here, (except for the spillover from a community FM station that has their antenna within a mile of my house) I don't care whether KRMA continues to broadcast on analog, except for the cost in energy and dollars. I find it interesting that they constantly claim energy consumption and dollars are crisis items for the planet or them.

My fav PBS Channel was always KRMA, they were the 1st in town (since the 70s) then when KBDI started transmitting from Broomfield their signal was always hard to get as it was 180 deg off of lookout mountain. As the years went the programming on KBDI improved greatly. I made the switch to Digital last October and don’t even get a hint of KRMA-DT, I have come to really like the programming on KBDI (no choice), especially the Documentary Channel (12-2). I do miss some of the programming on KRMA but I am hopeful that they will attempt to get their market back someday.

The FCC has spoken. Based on this post, by someone who seems to know what he is talking about: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=15745285#post15745285 , it looks like the stations will have to re-commit by Monday 2/10/2009 if they want to terminate analog on 2/17/2009. I suspect all the aplications may not be posted on 2/11. It may take longer.

Correction:
As I now understand it, the notification must be done BEFORE Tuesday Feb 10, 2009 or no later than Monday Feb 9, 2009 11:59PM EST. "Monday 2/10/2009" was obviously an error on my part.

It's not TV, it's confusion.

Just watched the 11am news on KWGN, and they said that despite the DTV delay, they will be discontinuing analog on February 17th. Sounded pretty official. I certainly hope that's the case. If so, I assume it will apply to KDVR as well. Hopefully, the other stations in town will follow their lead.

Is KWGN's transmission power going to change, or are they at full power already?


Ah, message #5232 answered it:
KWGN and KDVR have the most motivation to switch on the 17th, because they can't go full power digital UNTIL they shutoff their analog service, since they have to remove their analog equipment to make room for the equipment necessary to go full power digital. Note that KDVR has already submitted a STA indicating that they plan to terminate analog on 2/17.

Wouldn't KTVD have motivation to switch now as well since KRMA needs them to vacate the tower they're using for analog?

...
Wouldn't KTVD have motivation to switch now as well since KRMA needs them to vacate the tower they're using for analog?

What would make KTVD resposible for KRMA wants or needs?

That is part of the problem with the delay. If the February 17, 2009 date had held, KTVD would have been forced to end analog, and they would have had no reason not to cooperate with KRMA.

Now KTVD has to make the decision based on its own interests. There will obviously be some political pressure for them to stay on until 6/2/2009.

What would make KTVD resposible for KRMA wants or needs?

That is part of the problem with the delay. If the February 17, 2009 date had held, KTVD would have been forced to end analog, and they would have had no reason not to cooperate with KRMA.

Now KTVD has to make the decision based on its own interests. There will obviously be some political pressure for them to stay on until 6/2/2009.

The ownership of Channels 9 and 20, Gannett Co., has been terminating personnel and is mandating unpaid furlough days for all employees in order to save money and make it through the current economic downturn. Given that, I can't see why they would agree to keep spending the money necessary to keep Channel 20 analog from Mt. Morrison operational. If you are laying off staff and cutting worker's pay, why would you continue to waste money running a broadcast operation that practically no one is watching anyway.

Ergo, IMHO, Channel 20 analog will be off the air on 2/18/09 and RMPBS can start their efforts to use the Channel 20 analog tower for their DTV broadcasts.

Well I checked and Representative Ed Perlmutter voted NO on the transition delay yesterday, so he is two for two in voting common sense and ignoring what I call the "Ninth Ward whiners lobby". I guess he really is trying to be a moderate Democrat. Thanks Ed!

I think those of us who want things to get better on Feb 18, 2009 are had. Foxeng put up a very depressing post. http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=15746374#post15746374

Partial quote:
"Consistent with our public interest responsibilities and Congress' delay of the transition to June 12 to give consumers additional time to prepare, the Commission reserves the right to limit or reconsider this partial waiver in the event that it determines that analog termination on February 17 by a station or group of stations is contrary to the public interest. In such event, the Commission will promptly notify the affected station or stations," the new implementing rules say. " The Commission may consider such action if, for example, we find that all or most of the stations in a market will terminate their analog service on February 17, and that the market is one in which many viewers are unprepared for the transition or at risk if the transition proceeds. In such case, we may require affected stations to submit additional information to explain and justify how their early termination advances the public interest. Such additional information can include significant economic, technical, contractual and other business reasons that support termination on February 17. The Commission will scrutinize such information closely in light of the important interests at stake to determine whether a compelling case has been made."

Copps also announced that a number of station groups had pledged to keep all or most of their stations on the air in analog until June 12.

Groups committed to June 12, he said, included those of CBS, Fox, NBC, Telemundo and ABC. Gannett and Hearst-Argyle had pledged to keep the vast majority of their stations on until June 12.

The FCC is encouraging stations that do pull the plug early to continue to broadcast emergency and DTV consumer education information on their analog channel, where feasible.
The commission also told stations that if they terminate analog before June 12, they must continue to broadcast on their temporary DTV channel rather than their final channel. If they want instead to move to their final channel allotment, they must file a request for special temporary authority.


If he is right, and I am reading right, it looks like KUSA, KMGH, and KBDI are stuck on their UHF channels. They have to issue an STA, which I presume has to be approved by the FCC in order for them to actually switch.

It looks like the FCC has pretty much turned back the calender by 4 months.

TV Week quotes Copps a bit differently:

CBS, Fox, NBC, Telemundo and ABC have all agreed to keep both analog and digital signals airing for their owned and operated stations through the new June 12 date set for the DTV transition.

Acting Federal Communications Commission Chairman Michael Copps made the announcement at his first FCC meeting as acting chairman. He also said most of the stations owned by Hearst-Argyle and Gannett will be airing dual signals. …

http://www.tvweek.com/news/2009/02/dtv_switch_many_stations_to_br.php

So this means KCNC is definitely staying analog, and KUSA and KTVD probably will.

In the face of that I can't imagine KMGH would even consider going digital early.

KWGN and KDVR are wildcards here and I could see them deciding to switch early so they can start work on their new tower ontime rather than have to get back in line on their tower erector's schedule.

As far as KRMA, with their all-SD, all-the-time schedule (and HD PQ that would look like #$@! with two subchannels anyway), who cares?

Yes, it looks like we are scre_ed! Is this Copps another new administration appointee? If so, maybe he didn't pay his taxes either and he'll be gone shortly. I can only hope.

Yes, it looks like we are scre_ed! Is this Copps another new administration appointee? If so, maybe he didn't pay his taxes either and he'll be gone shortly. I can only hope.

Nope - he's been around since 2001 but has been spewing a lot of "transition mishandled by the Bush administration" nonsense since Obama took office.

Commissioner
Michael J. Copps

Nominated for a second term November 9, 2005; confirmed December 21, 2005; sworn in January 3, 2006. Sworn in for his first term on May 31, 2001. …

http://www.fcc.gov/commissioners/copps/

Well I checked and Representative Ed Perlmutter voted NO on the transition delay yesterday, so he is two for two in voting common sense and ignoring what I call the "Ninth Ward whiners lobby". I guess he really is trying to be a moderate Democrat. Thanks Ed!Or trying to reduce the amount of time his Golden constituents have to endure all that extra radiation from LOM. Either way, I'm not blaming him.

I emailed KRMA about the costs associated with extending the analog cutoff to June 12. The reply I received stated that the Economic Stimulus Bill, currently being debated in the Senate, contains funding to cover PBS.

Posted by kenavs:
The commission also told stations that if they terminate analog before June 12, they must continue to broadcast on their temporary DTV channel rather than their final channel. If they want instead to move to their final channel allotment, they must file a request for special temporary authority.
That provision makes sense since some stations will be moving to another channel that could interfere with an existing analog. That pretty much eliminates KBDI. But for KMGH and KUSA, they would be replacing their analog with their digital and interference wouldn't be a concern, so I think there's a chance they'll get an STA if they ask for one. If the FCC wasn't going to grant any STA's to cover these situations, they would have just stated no STA's, which, of course, they didn't.

I emailed KRMA about the costs associated with extending the analog cutoff to June 12. The reply I received stated that the Economic Stimulus Bill, currently being debated in the Senate, contains funding to cover PBS.But, AIUI, the ESB contains nothing for more coupons which was supposedly the reason the delay was needed.

But, AIUI, the ESB contains nothing for more coupons which was supposedly the reason the delay was needed.

Not sure what AIUI means, but the House stimulus bill contained a provision for over a BILLION DOLLARS more for DTV transition. That item has been widely discussed on Fox News and talk radio as an example of stuff in the bill that has nothing to do with stimulating the economy.

Not sure what AIUI means,
As I Understand It.
or, in this case, misunderstand.