Denver, CO - OTA [Text View] - Page 23

mrvideo

03-07-09, 02:51 AM

Better than what?

Better than the same video after it has gone through all the gear at the TV station and then aired OTA, which has a limited bandwidth of about 330 lines. The analog sat feeds had a wider bandwidth. While not a whole lot more, more none-the-less.

This reminds me of the story about video quality. About 10 years ago, I recorded a show (analog sat feed, first run material) on DVCAM tape. Sent the tape overseas. It was going to be used by a friend at a fan run convention. Most fan run conventions, at that time, used VHS tape that weren't exactly first generation. But he was called in as he did set up the best projection and audio available - top model front projection and high powered Dolby Surround. The tape was rolled and the audience got a very unique experience, for a fan run convention. There was a speaker hired to talk about video quality and what its potentials were. He pointed at the screen and basically said: "You just saw it." It took him for a loop, as he too never expected to see what it did. I never got details about what he did say.

Then the sat feeds upgraded to MPEG-2 4:2:2 video and just blew away the analog feeds and really made analog OTA not look good.

The same can be said today regarding HD. The high bitrate (35 Mbps+) MPEG-2 video is striking, compared to the bitstarved OTA broadcasts, a result of having to bitstarve them down to 15 Mbps, or less. I was comparing a frame of 1080i 35 Mbps video against the 15 Mbps video of the local station and the difference was glaring. This frame had no macroblocking, but the filtering of the image to reduce noise made the image look softer.

The public is just not seeing what digital video can really look like. Once more and more households become equipped with Blu-ray and see what HD can REALLY look like, they might start demanding better video from the OTA/cable/DBS sources.

[quote]Just what is "full" SD?

I'm guessing high bitrate digital video, not this overcompressed SD crap that is seen on the subchannels. Unfortunately, even the sat feed source for RTN is overcompressed. For linear sat feeds, the GDMX SD MPEG-2 4:2:2 video is the next best thing. It is borderline with regards to the bitrates they use. The best SD video source is Pathfire. The 4:2:2 video has a damn good bitrate.

It seems like you're trying to say that the downrezzed (from 720p or 1080i) digital SD feed is better than a clear, crisp, ghost free OTA analog signal. I don't think there's a discernable difference.

From what I've seen, I would disagree. I'm set up for HD these days, and have been for a while. I don't even look for SD feeds, only HD :D

kucharsk

03-07-09, 05:11 AM

I don't know… MPEG 2 looks good, but at least to me it still doesn't look as good as the old 36 MHz-wide CBC analog feeds that used to be on the Anik birds.

Watching the Sydney Olympics on CBC, in terms of picture quality and presentation quality compared to NBC was truly revelatory.

For that matter, NBC's analog Ku-band feeds used to look truly exemplary as well.

Marlboro_23

03-07-09, 12:19 PM

If you enjoy watching SD when HD is available, as you said, your viewing mileage may vary.

I might mention that I bought this Sony Bravia KDL-32L4000 mainly for my PC; watching SD/HD stuff is just a side benefit.

Seeing Denver 8 channels in HD is not possible for me..

Just what is "full" SD?

Today, for instance, my local PBS was broadcasting on 4 Channels, and they were not "full SD," as based upon program recorded at 4 to 5 mbps signal with good cameras/etc.

When my local PBS goes into dual broadcasting mode (1080i/480i), the 480i feed is not "full SD," and it is a degraded signal. I would have to check around, but it would not surprise me if they (et.al.) are using in actual bits maybe 3 mbps for 480i and 14 mbps for 1080i. There is only about 19.2mbps available, so they have to size down each format (HD/SD) to fit into this 19.2 mbps signal.

Here's what I don't know, I'm receiving via Uplinked Denver 8 either these stations' OTA feeds, or a direct feed from these stations to the uplinker's site. Hence, if your local Denver stations are broadcasting like my local PBS station does (1080i/480i), then both your HD/SD broadcast are being "degraded" at a lower bit rate.

Marlboro_23

03-07-09, 12:27 PM

MPEG 2 looks good, but at least to me it still doesn't look as good as the old 36 MHz-wide CBC analog feeds that used to be on the Anik birds.

Back when HBO was in analog format, I hooked up a 13" CGA monitor...and it was dam good picture quality. My 32" LCD has somewhere around 23" (or less) SD-Viewing area....hence, with larger sized TV Sets/Monitors, one will see imperfections sooner.

Yes, CBC is a missed treasure for me too....

Marlboro_23

03-07-09, 12:47 PM

but at least to me it still doesn't look as good as the old 36 MHz-wide CBC analog feeds

Footnote - Years ago, I noticed one of those home shopping shows had excellent video, never did check to see if it was 27 Mhz or 36 Mhz wide.

Marlboro_23

03-07-09, 01:12 PM

Just what is "full" SD?

If you have time to read thru this, North American MPEG-2 Information (http://www.tsreader.com/legacy/), and then read thru this sub-section, HDTV - way cool looking TV (opens on a seperate page), one will understand what "full SD" is all about.

In HDTV sub-section, if you understand this,

The really spiffy thing about what Dish Network is doing is that they're making an ATSC MPEG-2 Transport Stream from a DVB-S MPEG-2 Transport Stream. This is done with a ASIC (Application Specific IC) in the ATSC adapter - it generates the ATSC-SI tables allowing reception by an ATSC TV device which of course uses different Systems Information than the DVB-S signal coming from the satellite. The ASIC is also the hardware that's responsible for removing the PIDs that aren't used and stuffing NULL PIDs to keep the resulting 19.6Mbps data rate that the ATSC system uses

specifically, stuffing NULL PIDs, then you will understand how the Big Boys (cable/dbs) are taking a byte out of those bits being delivered.

CEB II

03-07-09, 02:05 PM

Dever 8, via C-Band for Cable Headends, looks quite good with S-Video.

It represents these stations digital signal, then uplinked in another digital format, and then cable headends pass these transmisions to their viewers.

Hence, my C-Band receiver is converting this uplinked digital signal to a S-Video (analog) format for my 32" Sony LCD...and it looks dam good when these broadcasters are putting out the good stuff....first class NTSC studio quality, so to speak.

So the local's DTV feed, same one that goes OTA and to the DBS companies and cable companies, is converted to another digital format for C-Band, converted to analog by your C-Band receiver and fed to your LCD HDTV, which, BTW, is then converting the analog signal to a digital signal and scaling the video to 720p for your viewing pleasure. That's a lot of conversions, which I believe have as much or more impact on PQ than does bit-rate (beyond some minimum level). And you think that PQ is better than the 480i DTV we receive OTA, even though you admit you can't receive OTA DTV at your location, so you don't know what we are viewing for OTA DTV. I think you are deluding yourself, but I'm glad that you are satisfied with the free TV you can receive.

CEB II

03-07-09, 02:13 PM

I tried RCA jack output to Sony 32" LCD on my Bud, it sucked...S-Video output made a large difference.

In my post, "Actually, KMGH-DT broadcasts their HD in 720p. With a good DAC box, that signal via RF OTA looks quite good on a good analog TV, no BUD required", I wasn't referring to a composite video jack, I was referring to a good DAC like my LG LST4200a, which has a parallel s-video jack (as well as a composite jack, component jacks, and a DVI output) for monitoring DTV (SD and HD) in SD. That s-video feed would look outstanding on an old Sony Trinitron. I use that feed for my DVD recorder and the product is equal to or better than that average Hollywood produced DVD.

milehighmike

03-07-09, 09:03 PM

Instead of talking about BUD's, after the past few posts, I think I'll have one.:D

Marlboro_23

03-07-09, 09:49 PM

So the local's DTV feed, same one that goes OTA and to the DBS companies and cable companies, is converted to another digital format for C-Band, converted to analog by your C-Band receiver and fed to your LCD HDTV

I think you have mixed the reality...but let's try again.

In the beginning, the function of satellite uplinking was to allow cable companies across America to have a clean signal (full analog or full SD/HD later)...then they and later your DBS companies (DISH/Directv) also used these sat transmissions for their uplinking to their paying users.

Now, I have no idea how DISH/DirecTV get their Denver Channels...or where the C-Band Sat uplinker gets Denver Channels....gettting them via OTA still means it has to be feed to these uplink stations (C-Band, DISH, DirecTV), so they all may have direct land-based means (fiber phone lines) to get these transmission from these TV stations directly. Translation, what you see OTA may not be the same what Satellite Folks Use.

That's a lot of conversions, which I believe have as much or more impact on PQ

I do watch DVDs, so I have a "Reference Standard."

And you think that PQ is better than the 480i DTV we receive OTA,

Question is....is the OTA signal that satellite uplinkers receive and uplink the same signal that Denver-ites see via OTA feed? My gut feeling is that during evening viewing hours, your HD/SD feeds are degraded (fewer mbps), and these uplinkers receive pure HD/SD feeds.

If this is valid, then yes, Denver-ites OTA feeds are different than what Sat Uplinkers get....Denver-ites get short changed, with fewer bits:eek:

Marlboro_23

03-07-09, 09:58 PM

Instead of talking about BUD's, after the past few posts, I think I'll have one.:D

Try it, Bud Light (http://www.picvi.com/2009/02/09/bud-light/)

And then after several drinks, watch a Lipbalm Commercial (http://www.picvi.com/2009/02/14/lipbalm-commercial/)

Marlboro_23

03-07-09, 10:33 PM

That s-video feed would look outstanding on an old Sony Trinitron.

Trivial...analog vs digital...

Video Format.............................. Horizontal Resolution (resolution width) (http://www.lyberty.com/encyc/articles/tech/vid_horizontal_resolution.html)
Standard VHS............................. 210 Vertical "Lines"
Hi8...............................................400 Lines
Laserdisc......................................425 Lines
DV...............................................500 Lines
DVD............................................540 Lines(?) [some actual DIGITAL sizes: 720(w)x480(h), 704(w)x480 or 352(w)x480 ]

Typically, for actual NTSC signals, 485 lines are used for displaying the picture
/////////

If one can receive 485 lines of good analog, a SD (digital ) feed may not look the same since the total bandwidth between analog/digital is not the same. My experiences suggest 485 lines of good analog is kick butt performance, and I have not seen that in SD OTA.

milehighmike

03-08-09, 04:44 AM

Marlboro_23:

I prefer regular beer over light beer. Light beer is watered down. Kinda like how SDTV is watered down HDTV.
My gut feeling is that during evening viewing hours, your HD/SD feeds are degraded (fewer mbps), and these uplinkers receive pure HD/SD feeds.

Dish Network takes its Denver locals from OTA signals. I don't know how DirecTV receives the Denver locals. So your gut feeling is incorrect.

If one can receive 485 lines of good analog, a SD (digital ) feed may not look the same since the total bandwidth between analog/digital is not the same. My experiences suggest 485 lines of good analog is kick butt performance, and I have not seen that in SD OTA.
I presume you have counted the lines on an OTA SD transmission to make this statement.

Seriously, I really don't care about the level of quality of SDTV. To me, and I suspect to the vast majority of posters to this thread, kick butt SDTV is not something yearned for. Being concerned about SDTV at this time is like caring about VHS or 8 track tapes as far as I'm concerned. It's time to move on. I watch HDTV almost exclusively (my satellite service is Dish's Turbo HD, no stand alone SD channels), the exception being a Nuggets or Avs game not available in HD.

If you are unable to receive HDTV OTA, that is unfortunate. But if you voluntarily limit yourself to SDTV, by not subscribing to a pay service that offers HDTV, that's your decision. I don't think there is much enthusiam here for SD TV. In fact, I surmise that you may be the only poster here concerned with the "quality" of SDTV.

cia_viewer

03-08-09, 07:56 AM

MikeBiker

03-08-09, 10:01 AM

Cia_viewer, How many splitters are in line before the Magnavox CECB?

cia_viewer

03-08-09, 10:59 AM

Cia_viewer, How many splitters are in line before the Magnavox CECB?

None. There is the Pico Macom UVSJ UHF VHF Band Separator/Combiner for Antenna in the attic joining my TERK tv 55 (VHF) and my Antennas Direct DB8 (UHF) HDTV Antenna. From there it is RG6 to my 'Home Run box' with its OnQ Part Number: 363469-02 3x8 Video Module. Its outputs are 'feeding' the various COAX lines. From the wall connector it is a store bought RG6 a5 ft cable to the CECB.

anythingwire

03-08-09, 12:01 PM

Six years ago while having our basement finished, I added more CAT5e and COAX cabling from our 'home run box'. CAT5 was easy for me but I was new to COAX. At least one 50 foot run is RG59 buried in the walls.

The TV with its Magnavox CECB gets poorer reception than the others. I have 'redone' the terminations on both ends of that run.

Any ideas?

You could run a peace of RG6 from your home run box through the house to to the CECB box to diagnose the problem. That will tell you if it is the RG59 or not. That would be best place to start.

Jim McCauley

03-08-09, 01:51 PM

Typically, for actual NTSC signals, 485 lines are used for displaying the picture.

Analog resolution is a bit mushy. I asked a station engineer (not a physicist or clinical ophthalmologist) what "lines" were, and his reply went something like this:

"OK. You got your video signal bandwidth, which is 4.2 MHz until it's 3 dB down. Divide that by your horizontal lines per second, which is 15,750, ignoring the color silliness. That gives you 266.67 Hertz per line. About 85% of the line is actually displayed, because some of it goes to synchronization and such. That gives you about 227 Hertz per horizontal line.

"Now a Hertz is a cycle: one up and one down, one white and one black. So that's two lines per Hertz, or about 453 lines. But remember, the signal is 3 dB down at that point, so it's not actually one white and one black -- it's one light gray and one dark gray. On a monochrome set, you probably get something less than 400 lines of white-to-black.

"You get less with a monochrome picture on a color set, depending on the quality of the shadow mask, and you get still less with color because of the low bandwidth of the chroma signals on the subcarrier. A cheap color set with lousy filtering will give you maybe 300 lines tops."

Thus spake the station engineer.

Jim McCauley

Marlboro_23

03-08-09, 04:43 PM

In fact, I surmise that you may be the only poster here concerned with the "quality" of SDTV.

Content in terms of total mbps is what is relevant....its why OTA broadcasters wanted FCC to mandate all the bits would be carried via DBS/Cable, but instead, broadcasters got if DBS/Cable has a similar look to an OTA feed, then everything is OK...but the reality is, your HD viewing via DISH/etc is missing a number of bits from the original...they are stuffing NULL PIDs into your ASTC stream.

With Blue-Ray, if you can do a A/B comparison sometime to a movie on OTA/DBS/Cable, you may see your HD-OTA/DBS/Cable don't have as good as PQ as you perceive...if your Blue Ray video is doing a bitrate around 20 to 40 mbit/s.

Thanks for comments....but DVD around 5 to 7 mbps is just fine on my 32" LCD, and Blue-Ray around 20-40 mbps is fine, but watch out for degraded HD OTA/DBS/Cable signals...some people think DBS/Cable are great with those NULL PIDs included

Marlboro_23

03-08-09, 04:54 PM

Analog resolution is a bit mushy

Not really, I had a conditional statement: "If one can receive 485 lines of good analog"

My C-Band satellite receiver suggests it is capable...so just mate the TV to it, and presto, my conditional statement makes more sense:D

In any event, I have been channel surfing between OTA-SD and Denver 8....so, this represents two different inputs, ATSC & NTSC via S-Video....conclusion, Denver's ABC kicks butt over OTA-SD, as based upon what I have seen todate. But, there is still alot of bad video out there, so to speak.

Further, if OTA station is transmitting in HD/SD, poof goes mbps for each...ask him what mbps is for each? thx

CEB II

03-08-09, 05:34 PM

Trivial...analog vs digital...

Video Format.............................. Horizontal Resolution (resolution width) (http://www.lyberty.com/encyc/articles/tech/vid_horizontal_resolution.html)
Standard VHS............................. 210 Vertical "Lines"
Hi8...............................................400 Lines
Laserdisc......................................425 Lines
DV...............................................500 Lines
DVD............................................540 Lines(?) [some actual DIGITAL sizes: 720(w)x480(h), 704(w)x480 or 352(w)x480 ]

Typically, for actual NTSC signals, 485 lines are used for displaying the picture
/////////

Not trivial as the point is that a SD analog signal derived from a high resolution (HD DTV) digital signal properly DAC'd will look excellent on a high quality analog TV. That SD analog signal having to be ADC'd back to digital by your LCD HDTV and then scaled to 1280x720p resolution for display won't look as good because of the extra conversions and scaling. SD DTV feed directly to an ATSC tuner in an DTV is almost conversion-free from reception to display, so it is limited only by the quality of the original source material (live HD being about the best of original source material), which is a limitation on any reception and display.

If one can receive 485 lines of good analog, a SD (digital ) feed may not look the same since the total bandwidth between analog/digital is not the same. My experiences suggest 485 lines of good analog is kick butt performance, and I have not seen that in SD OTA.

But, you've stated that you can't receive OTA DTV (that's why you are using a BUD), so how would you know? Again, I'm glad that you are satisfied with the free TV you can receive, but don't knock the OTA DTV others are viewing until you are capable of viewing the same thing.

CEB II

03-08-09, 05:52 PM

You could run a peace of RG6 from your home run box through the house to to the CECB box to diagnose the problem. That will tell you if it is the RG59 or not. That would be best place to start.

I'll second that and if that is the problem, your options are limited. One, live with it. Two, try some sort of amplification on that particular line (limited chance of success and satisfaction for the money to be spent). Three, get out your drywall saw and start running new quad-shielded RG6 coax through the walls. My 20 year old house was wired with RG59 when built (I bought it at 5 years old) and since I got DBS in 1999, I've had to redo the coax runs I want to use. This has included drilling the stud headers and footers from holes in the dry wall above and below a floor level. Not a lot of fun to do or to make pretty again afterward, but usually the best long-term solution.

CEB II

03-08-09, 05:58 PM

Not really, I had a conditional statement: "If one can receive 485 lines of good analog"

My C-Band satellite receiver suggests it is capable...so just mate the TV to it, and presto, my conditional statement makes more sense:D
thx

I think you missed the detail and point of Jim's post.

But since this thread is for Local HDTV Info and Reception; Denver, CO - OTA, let's stop debating the quality of NTSC broadcasts and bring this particular discussion to a close.

Thank you.

milehighmike

03-08-09, 06:14 PM

Posted by CEB II:
But since this thread is for Local HDTV Info and Reception; Denver, CO - OTA, let's stop debating the quality of NTSC broadcasts and bring this particular discussion to a close.

Thank you.

+1

Marlboro_23

03-08-09, 10:52 PM

but don't knock the OTA DTV others are viewing until you are capable of viewing the same thing.

Last Tidbit...OTA digital is about 19.6 mbps Total...so when a local is doing HD/SD....that total bandwidth has to be shared. It don't take a weatherman to know this HD OTA future has just been compromised.

Btw, I live in a "hole," but my relative lives on the hill, and receives OTA-HD/SD...on his larger Sony Bravia...I've seen the other side, fyi.

PS: Just passing on some tidbits about your local stations...I'd venture to say I'm receiving more bits on C-Band than what Dish/DirecTV gives to their customers....compared to what local Denverites receive, I don't know.

sgtpeper

03-09-09, 03:09 PM

gkanders

03-09-09, 03:35 PM

last night KDVR-DT was causing my ATSC receiver to hang. Even unplugging it didn't seem to resolve the issue. Did anyone else have a problem with DT31?

oxothuk

03-09-09, 04:23 PM

I live in an Apartment so an outdoor antenna is most likely out.

1. What is the absolute best OTA HD antenna I can buy for indoor use?
2. Where can I find a comprehensive list of the channels I'll be able to watch with an OTA antenna in Denver?
3. What other advice do you have about making this switch?

Thanks!

Jeff
Where do you live?

1) There's no one answer, there are too many variables. Check over here http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay.php?f=25
for general advice on antennas.
2) All of the major networks are covered (CBS, ABC, NBC, Fox, WB, MyNetwork, PAX) plus our two PBS stations (KRMA and KBDI) and several more Spanish or religious channels. KUSA has additional subchannels for Weather and for sports. The PBS stations have subchannels for crafts/travel and documentaries, among other things.
3) Go to Radio Shack and buy something, take it home and try it. If it doesn't work well for you, take it back.

kucharsk

03-09-09, 06:09 PM

Where do you live?

2) All of the major networks are covered (CBS, ABC, NBC, Fox, WB, MyNetwork, PAX) plus our two PBS stations (KRMA and KBDI) and several more Spanish or religious channels. KUSA has additional subchannels for Weather and for sports. The PBS stations have subchannels for crafts/travel and documentaries, among other things.

To expand on oxothuk's answer, the "where do you live" question is key, as thanks to braindead decisions by our local PBS stations in where they placed their transmitters, in some portions of the area you will only be able to pick up one of the PBS stations or neither.

It's also important to know that for other braindead reasons, neither local PBS station currently shows any HD content.

CEB II

03-09-09, 07:40 PM

Hey all,

There is a wealth of information in this thread, but its hard to read through all of it, thus my questions may have already been answered in bits and pieces of this thread BUT here goes anyway:

I'm a noob to OTA. I have a Pioneer Elite 930HD Plasma TV. I hate comcast and I am thinking of switching to OTA.

I live in an Apartment so an outdoor antenna is most likely out.

1. What is the absolute best OTA HD antenna I can buy for indoor use?
2. Where can I find a comprehensive list of the channels I'll be able to watch with an OTA antenna in Denver?
3. What other advice do you have about making this switch?

Thanks!

Jeff

I posed a similar question regarding indoor antennas in this thread. Didn't get a lot of response.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1010402

Shortly after that this thread appeared. It should offer you some good advice regarding indoor antennas. However, DTV and indoor antennas aren't an exact science. YMMV.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1037779

Rick313

03-09-09, 08:38 PM

What is the absolute best OTA HD antenna I can buy for indoor use?

Unfortunately, there is no simple answer to that question. Some antennas work well for some people while other antennas work better for other people. Check the other threads as mentioned above, but my advice is that simple is best. Most of the fancy "revolutionary design" type antennas are just hype. More expensive doesn't necessarily mean better. Radio Shack has a good selection of antennas in a variety of price ranges. I've heard great things about their budget $11.99 antenna, but I haven't used it myself.

Where can I find a comprehensive list of the channels I'll be able to watch with an OTA antenna in Denver?

TVFool (http://www.tvfool.com) and AntennaWeb (http://www.antennaweb.org)are probably the best places to start. You can also check TitanTV (http://www.titantv.com)or Zap2it (http://www.zap2it.com)for listings.

What other advice do you have about making this switch?

You'll probably want something for recording programs. For HD, the best thing available right now is a Tivo HD. For SD, there are several DVD recorders available, or you could always make due with a VCR and a converter box like the Zinwell ZAT-950A.

It can get a little overwhelming, but just take it one step at a time. The best thing to do is start with the antenna (you'll want to try several to see which one gives you the best results) and work from there.

milehighmike

03-09-09, 10:09 PM

I was going to let a sleeping dog lie until I stumbled upon the following:

Post #5530, above, by Marlboro_23, on this thread:
Btw, I live in a "hole," but my relative lives on the hill, and receives OTA-HD/SD...on his larger Sony Bravia...I've seen the other side, fyi.
Post #18 HDTV Technical Forum, thread CM4251 UHF Parabolic Or....et al by Marlboro_23:
I'm still searching for info, but I'm thinking about erecting an old BUD (Big Umbrella Dish) and use it as UHF antenna. I can get signal at ground level with cheap UHF antenna. Just have not come across specific details on what to replace feedhorn with yet. Emphasis provided.

So much for credibility.

anythingwire

03-10-09, 01:41 AM

I was going to let a sleeping dog lie until I stumbled upon the following:

Post #5530, above, by Marlboro_23, on this thread:

Post #18 HDTV Technical Forum, thread CM4251 UHF Parabolic Or....et al by Marlboro_23:
Emphasis provided.

So much for credibility.

Check out this sight. Its a tribute sight for the 4251. I wish I could find an old one.
http://www.rocketroberts.com/cm4251/cm4251.htm

Don_M

03-10-09, 02:47 AM

I wish I could find an old one.

Oh, but you can... as long as you're willing to shell out more than $1,100 for a restored example:

CM 4251 (http://www.ultrasatellite.com/product-p/4251.htm)

cia_viewer

03-10-09, 08:57 AM

Hey all,

There is a wealth of information in this thread, but its hard to read through all of it, thus my questions may have already been answered in bits and pieces of this thread BUT here goes anyway:

I'm a noob to OTA. I have a Pioneer Elite 930HD Plasma TV. I hate comcast and I am thinking of switching to OTA.

I live in an Apartment so an outdoor antenna is most likely out.

1. What is the absolute best OTA HD antenna I can buy for indoor use?
2. Where can I find a comprehensive list of the channels I'll be able to watch with an OTA antenna in Denver?
3. What other advice do you have about making this switch?

Thanks!

Jeff

If any of your neighbors are using OTA, what works for them?

Right now, most ,if not all, DTV is broadcast in the UHF range, but after the dust settles, some plan to revert back to the upper UHF range e.g.:
KMGH (7.1) 7=>17=>7
KUSA (9.1-9.3) 9=>16=>9
KBDI (12.1-12.3) 12=>38=>13

As someone already mentioned:
http://www.tvfool.com/index.php?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29
can be used to specify your location and elevation to get an idea what stations your antenna could 'see'.

There have already been good ideas given for you to try before you 'cut your umbilical'.

anythingwire

03-10-09, 09:12 AM

Oh, but you can... as long as you're willing to shell out more than $1,100 for a restored example:

CM 4251 (http://www.ultrasatellite.com/product-p/4251.htm)

That a little too much I am looking for someone that I can help out and take it do for free and hall it away for no extra charge.:) That sounds like one that setting around there store for awhile, CM has not make those sence 2001.

Don_M

03-10-09, 01:00 PM

That sounds like one that setting around there store for awhile, CM has not make those sence 2001.

And at that price, it's gonna be sitting around the store for some time to come! Just thought the link might give you a chuckle.

Don.

Rick313

03-10-09, 06:02 PM

In case anyone is interested, there is a Channel Master 4251 on eBay for $500. Still a lot of money, but just thought I'd mention it.

Marlboro_23

03-10-09, 06:20 PM

I was going to let a sleeping dog lie until I stumbled upon the following:

Post #5530, above, by Marlboro_23, on this thread:

Post #18 HDTV Technical Forum, thread CM4251 UHF Parabolic Or....et al by Marlboro_23:
Emphasis provided.

So much for credibility.

Some people just don't do their homework...and eat their own dust for breakfast:

In this non-edited Post (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=15943005#post15943005): 03-01-09, 12:57 PM:

Originally Posted by anythingwire View Post
...how far away from the TV towers are you?

Nearest one you can pickup with rabbit ears, but farest one is about 80 miles away....with both coming from same direction.

Speaking of some more crow, I did a little research on my C-Band 922 receiver:

7. S-Video Out. S-Video......interface is very effective at eliminating "dot crawl" and other picture anomalies on signals that received from a component quality source. Digital channels on C-Band TV are a component quality source.

Now, my S-Video is not your typical NTSC S-Video...as Wiki says, "NTSC S-Video colour resolution is typically 120 lines horizontal (approximately 160 pixels edge-to-edge), versus 250 lines horizontal for a DVD-encoded signal, or 30 lines horizontal for standard VCRs."

Since I have made a comparison between watching a Denver channel via RF output from C-Band receiver and from S-Video output from this receiver, I can state that S-Video is a pinch better...similar to DVD quality when watching these Denver Channels. I have also compared my S-Video to Component output from this receiver, not much difference on NTSC/SD.

Further, when a C-Band uplinker is getting these Denver 8 stations for Cable Headends to retransmitt, generally speaking, they are using a good signal source(s) so a clean signal can be obtained for these Cable Headends.

Further, years ago, FCC mandated that OTA broadcasters must provide at their facility a clean signal for Cable/DBS/...must provide...it does not have to be used, but its not uncommon to see broadcaster's signal (not OTA) being used for retransmission.

Smuuth

03-10-09, 06:24 PM

...As stated above more than once, this is a thread on HDTV Info and reception so you are again off-topic.

CEB II

03-10-09, 07:26 PM

Some people...

Enough of this blubbering, off-topic, nonsense. On to my Ignore List!

Marlboro_23

03-10-09, 11:55 PM

this is a thread on HDTV Info and reception so you are again off-topic.

I was commenting on reception of Denver stations via C-Band means...thought it might be of interest, to some.

PS: Technically speaking, I am receiving my signal via OTA...over the air via satellite

Hence, as based upon this thread's topic, Denver's OTA HDTV Info and Reception," I'm on topic, when you look up the common meaning of OTA.

OTA is not specific to TVs:

DEFINITION (http://searchmobilecomputing.techtarget.com/sDefinition/0,,sid40_gci805999,00.html)- Over The Air (OTA) (or Over-The-Air) is a standard for the transmission and reception of application-related information in a wireless communications system. The standard is supported by Nokia, SmartTrust, and others

Marlboro_23

03-11-09, 12:06 AM

Enough of this blubbering, off-topic, nonsense. On to my Ignore List!

Just as well....since my thoughts have not been followed, and mis-stated.

Case in point: I never said this, as you did:

But, you've stated that you can't receive OTA DTV (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=15996816#post15996816)

I can receive two OTA via antenna...one is a SD-repeater, and the other is PBS.

Btw, HDTV does not mean 1080i....in the case of broadcasters, it means their digital signals...480i and up.

Trip in VA

03-11-09, 12:21 AM

PS: Technically speaking, I am receiving my signal via OTA...over the air via satellite

Hence, as based upon this thread's topic, Denver's OTA HDTV Info and Reception," I'm on topic, when you look up the common meaning of OTA.

That term may be the "common meaning" but is not how it is used on AVS Forum. On AVS, OTA refers to terrestrial digital TV reception. There are occasional BUD discussions, but they are generally considered to be off-topic.

Btw, HDTV does not mean 1080i....in the case of broadcasters, it means their digital signals...480i and up.

No. HDTV is 1080i or 720p. DTV is any digital format. HDTV is a subset of DTV.

- Trip

rthurlow

03-11-09, 12:46 AM

BTW, I let KBDI know this was affecting some of their viewers. Might not matter, but ...

Hey! That might have worked - Directv's guide info is correct now, and recording works again :-)

milehighmike

03-11-09, 02:09 AM

Marlboro_23:

I reiterate - you have no credibility. Your posts are misleading, as I have already pointed out. I do not care about your thoughts and experiences regarding your FTA reception of Denver locals. Others on this thread have opined likewise. This thread is for OTA reception of Denver locals. While this thread does entertain posts from members outside of the Denver DMA, the posts concern OTA reception and add value. Your comments on FTA reception do not.

I suspect that you live no where near Colorado and you picked this thread to post in because of your ability to watch Denver locals FTA. Your Avs profile doesn't disclose your location. Where do you reside?

As far as eating dust for breakfast, let's see. You think you know how some pay providers receive Denver local signals but you don't, you think you're enlightening us by stating the effects SD subchannels have on HD subchannels which I assure is known quite well here, and you believe digital TV and HD TV are the same, to name a few.

Unless you seek information, help with OTA reception, can directly comment of OTA reception, etc, please go away.

kucharsk

03-11-09, 11:43 AM

Rant mode on:

Is KDVR ever going to invest in a way to run crawls without having to drop down to 4:3 SD?

It's getting ultra-annoying to watch their crawl and have to see the screen shrink down and the digital audio go to hell whenever they do it.

What's even worse is, as during the beginning of this week's House, is when the people in the control room fall asleep and don't remember to switch it back to HD after their annoying FCC nag crawl is over.

Worse yet, severe weather season is coming up, so I look forward to KDVR dropping 24 to SD at important points to tell us Limon or Fort Morgan are getting hailed on. :(

I hope and pray it's part of what's coming in their new control room when they finally go HD for their newscasts…

Rant mode off.

Trip in VA

03-11-09, 11:44 AM

Fox is supposed to be replacing the equipment at its affiliates to allow such things, the last word I heard is by fall season but I'm hearing that might be pushed back.

- Trip

DennisMileHi

03-11-09, 12:07 PM

Is KDVR ever going to invest in a way to run crawls without having to drop down to 4:3 SD?

What's even worse is, as during the beginning of this week's House, is when the people in the control room fall asleep and don't remember to switch it back to HD after their annoying FCC nag crawl is over.

I was actually yelling at my projection screen last night as we watched the recording of House, both for the stupid crawl which I have now seen so much I have it memorized and then again for them forgetting to flip the switch. Reminds me of the very old days (2003 or so, before I had a Tivo recorder) when I would call the various channels (usually CBS) newsrooms, ask for engineering and then tell them to "flip the switch!"

ppasteur

03-11-09, 12:18 PM

I was commenting on reception of Denver stations via C-Band means...thought it might be of interest, to some.

PS: Technically speaking, I am receiving my signal via OTA...over the air via satellite

Judging by the responses and the stated topic of this thread, the information is of little interest to those subscribing to this thread. My take is that you just like to argue for the sake of aguing. I for one, couldn't care less about your BUD (Big UGLY Dish is the basis for the acronym IIRC) or your reception of SDTV using SVIDEO connections with it. The reason people come here, and have for over five years, it to discuss terrestrial HIGH DEFINITION TV reception of stations in the local Denver market.

I would request that unless you have something to say that directly applies to this topic, that you refrain from cluttering up the thread. I am sure that, if you looked, you might find an appropriate thread for writing about your BUD, and how great the SD reception on it is, but it is NOT here!

Phil

CEB II

03-11-09, 12:19 PM

rant mode on:

Is kdvr ever going to invest in a way to run crawls without having to drop down to 4:3 sd?

It's getting ultra-annoying to watch their crawl and have to see the screen shrink down and the digital audio go to hell whenever they do it.

What's even worse is, as during the beginning of this week's house, is when the people in the control room fall asleep and don't remember to switch it back to hd after their annoying fcc nag crawl is over.

Worse yet, severe weather season is coming up, so i look forward to kdvr dropping 24 to sd at important points to tell us limon or fort morgan are getting hailed on. :(

i hope and pray it's part of what's coming in their new control room when they finally go hd for their newscasts…

rant mode off.

+1:mad:

Rick313

03-11-09, 12:59 PM

Is KDVR ever going to invest in a way to run crawls without having to drop down to 4:3 SD?

It's getting ultra-annoying to watch their crawl and have to see the screen shrink down and the digital audio go to hell whenever they do it.

For once, we agree. As if the incessant commercials about the DTV transition weren't bad enough, they've decided to actively annoy viewers during their favorite programs. For some reason, KDVR seems intent on driving viewers away. Seems like a pretty stupid move on their part.

MadMonkey

03-11-09, 02:13 PM

Hey all,

I'm a noob to OTA. I have a Pioneer Elite 930HD Plasma TV. I hate comcast and I am thinking of switching to OTA.

You might want to wait...the transmission is not yet at full power and won't be until it has to be.

WaldorfSalad

03-11-09, 02:47 PM

Marlboro_23

03-11-09, 02:53 PM

Marlboro_23:

I reiterate - you have no credibility.... Your posts are misleading...
I do not care about your thoughts and experiences regarding your FTA reception of Denver locals.

Btw, there you go again...Denver 8 is not "FTA" Free-to-air (FTA) but runs about $12.00/month.

I suspect that you live no where near Colorado

Wrong again....but, my two OTA broadcasters' stations are in Kansas.

Trust me, 8VSB transmissions via FCC rules are the same in Colorado, as in any other US state. Hence, valid comparisons apply:D

As far as eating dust for breakfast

Life's too short to do a critical review of two people's skewed verbiage towards me on this forum....but in concise terms, one might say they are "young, dumb, and full of themselves." It's clear they had an axe to grind agenda.

GoodBye...

jsmar

03-11-09, 03:01 PM

Rant mode on:

Is KDVR ever going to invest in a way to run crawls without having to drop down to 4:3 SD?

I too am annoyed at this switching. At the very least it would be nice if the engineer who is "flipping the switch" would at least attempt to avoid doing it in the middle of a sentence.

Don_M

03-11-09, 04:42 PM

Life's too short to do a critical review of two people's skewed verbiage towards me on this forum....but in concise terms, one might say they are "young, dumb, and full of themselves." It's clear they had an axe to grind agenda.

GoodBye...

My goodness, I do believe we have a troll to play with! The behavior is a dead giveaway:

1. Start by discussing an outlier topic, but not too far off the reservation.
2. Never answer an honest question clearly.
3. Always provoke other posters.
4. Fling poo when said posters respond in kind.

Now make like a tree in autumn... and leave. Permanently, please.

CEB II

03-11-09, 05:49 PM

"young, dumb, and full of themselves."

Hmmm, let's see, I'm young enough to be on SS, dumb enough to have an advanced degree, and full of myself enough to have some of the same friends for over 25 years in this town. Guess he was talking about me. BTW, he's staying on my Ignore list.

jsmar

03-11-09, 06:26 PM

Just an FYI, KRMA started broadcasting from Fort Collins on RF47. They are sending the identical signal that they send from Mount Morrison, i.e. they are using the same tsid and display channels. It's a nice strong signal for me, but I am really close to the transmitter.

I'll be curious to see what the reach of this repeater is. Let the reception reports begin!

I will also note that if you are able to get both the Mt. Morrison signal and the Fort Collins signal you will have a display channel collision, which various tuners will resolve differently. I'll have to wait until I get home to check my DTVpal, but I remember that it behaved particularly badly in this situation when KMGH and KUSA did test broadcasts on RF7 and RF9 which still broadcasting on RF17 and RF16.

Jim McCauley

03-11-09, 07:08 PM

Let the reception reports begin!

North of Fort Collins near Terry Lake: Channel locked and displayed, but the received signal is surprisingly low. I have a query into RMPBS engineering about the current power level.

Subchannels received include 6-1, 6-2 and 6-3, along with a reader service channel on 6-5. I was able to tune 6-5 on all my gear, but only my Zenith DTT900 CECB and my ATI HD Wonder tuner card produced audio. My RCA DTA800B CECB tunes the channel but produces no sound.

Jim McCauley
Fort Collins CO

Don_M

03-11-09, 07:23 PM

I have a query into RMPBS engineering about the current power level.

It'll be interesting to hear what they say. FCC granted their application for an ERP of 10 kW two months ago. For reference, here's the service area map (http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=LD1287498.html) showing a null to the immediate north of the city limit.

jsmar

03-11-09, 07:41 PM

It'll be interesting to hear what they say. FCC granted their application for an ERP of 10 kW two months ago. For reference, here's the service area map (http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=LD1287498.html) showing a null to the immediate north of the city limit.

Wow, according to that map, that null is right at Terry Lake. That could explain Jim's signal issue. Now if you draw a line from the transmitter out to Kersey, which appears to be the direction of maximum signal, that line would go just about directly over my house, which would explain why the signal from this translator is about the strongest signal I get (KCNC is about the same), and it is coming in from the side of my antenna.

I'm located in south west Fort Collins, near the intersection of Taft Hill and Harmony roads.

milehighmike

03-11-09, 09:24 PM

Posted by CEB II:
"young, dumb, and full of themselves."

Hmmm, let's see, I'm young enough to be on SS, dumb enough to have an advanced degree, and full of myself enough to have some of the same friends for over 25 years in this town. Guess he was talking about me. BTW, he's staying on my Ignore list.

We're in the same boat. Retired, but not quite eligible for SS, have an advanced degree, and have had the same friends for the 22 years I've lived here.

I didn't put the troll on my ignore list since he posts on other threads but if he posts again on this thread he'll be on it immediately.

Jim McCauley

03-11-09, 09:49 PM

The new translator went off the air sometime between 6:10 and 7:14 PM on Wednesday evening (11 March), at least for me here north of Fort Collins. Is anyone getting anything?

Jim McCauley

jsmar

03-11-09, 10:55 PM

The new translator went off the air sometime between 6:10 and 7:14 PM on Wednesday evening (11 March), at least for me here north of Fort Collins. Is anyone getting anything?
Jim McCauley

I haven't seen any changes in signal level here.

Jim McCauley

03-11-09, 11:52 PM

jsmar

03-12-09, 02:38 AM

K47LY-D did not go off the air, but it did drop below the level of detectability at my location. This might have been due to atmospherics that emphasized the effect of the null in the radiation pattern of the translator.

This is a great disappointment.

Jim McCauley

Considering that you have been the strongest advocate on the AVS forum for getting reception of KRMA in Northern Colorado, it seems almost cruel that your house should fall just about directly in the null of their radiation pattern.

I wonder if there is any chance they can widen that pattern somewhat. It looks like they aimed the antenna in such a way to try to cover Loveland, Fort Collins and Greeley. If they turned the antenna a little more towards you to improve your reception they would probably wind up cutting off reception for people in south Loveland. But the width of the radiation pattern seems rather narrow. I wonder if that was required in order to not interfere with some other station, or if there was some other reason for it.

It also isn't clear to me, based on their antenna radiation pattern, why those nulls exist. Is there something in the terrain blocking reception in those directions?

Trip in VA

03-12-09, 07:52 AM

As a "fill-in translator" the station is required to fill in the gap between the edge of the DT-18 contour and the TV-06 contour. The rules forbid them from expanding coverage outside the TV-06 contour while not greatly overlapping with the DT-18 contour, thus the highly directional pattern.

- Trip

Dave6833

03-12-09, 09:24 AM

...For reference, here's the service area map (http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=LD1287498.html) showing a null to the immediate north of the city limit.

Sigh...still no coverage in Longmont. :(

kucharsk

03-12-09, 10:17 AM

Agreed, it sucks! 3-4 more months of this cra@p? I thought KUSA/9-News crawl was bad (due to squish-o-vision) but KDVR's is worse. Also, is it really necessary to show this so frequently (at least twice every evening) and for so long (2 minutes each time). Do they think people are stupid and can't read and remember?

I don't know what the current FCC requirements are, but it used to be they had to run at least one during prime time "at varying times and for no less than sixty seconds."

Still, the folks at KDVR flip the switch to force SD, wait about 20 seconds, start the interminable crawl, and then switch back to HD whenever they feel like it.

During last week's House it wasn't until the first commercial break, which makes me wonder if someone did call them and remind them to flip the #$@! switch.

For 24 I don't understand why they can't start it concurrent with the "Previously on 24 recap" and so the crawl and switch back to HD start at or very quickly after the transition into the new part of the show.

Still, it's not as bad as during the two episode season premiere when they started the crawl in the middle of the climax of the two hours…

MikeBiker

03-12-09, 10:49 AM

Sigh...still no coverage in Longmont. :(For some reason, I now get good reception on 18 (6.1). For a while, I could not receive a strong signal.

bretski

03-12-09, 10:54 AM

+++++++ On KDVR's crawl. I just sent a polite (but firm) email to them. The address I found is: fox31news@denvernewshd.com

Let's fill-up their inboxes, and maybe they'll respond favorably...

cgmiller80017

03-12-09, 10:57 AM

Heres a thought on the nonstop crawls....
Come June when the 2-3million people who still havent done anything about the transition start their crying that they need more time, perhaps this time they will be told "sorry but we ran notices on an hourly basis for 4 months warning you of this change." Then we can all figure out what the digital landscape will look like with everyone running at full power as opposed to what we have now. If it wasnt for the fact I have a clear shot of lookout from my patio in Aurora I am afraid I wouldnt have any digital at all right now.

milehighmike

03-12-09, 12:47 PM

Posted by Trip in VA:
As a "fill-in translator" the station is required to fill in the gap between the edge of the DT-18 contour and the TV-06 contour. The rules forbid them from expanding coverage outside the TV-06 contour while not greatly overlapping with the DT-18 contour, thus the highly directional pattern.

I'm sure you're correct, you always are. But.........if you look at the coverage contour map for the translator at:

="http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/getattachment_exh.cgi?exhibit_id=712928&formid=911&q_num=5370 on page 8

that doesn't seem to be the case. The overlap with the channel 18 coverage contour at least equals or may be greater than the analog gap coverage. There appears to be some "room" to increase signal to the north and stay within the analog coverage contour. Perhaps coverage is limited by the equipment KRMA purchased? Some other reason?

As a related aside, I noticed the FCC database no longer contains info for the current 115kW digital operation of KRMA. (I've seen on other threads that there have been problems with the FCC database.)

Trip in VA

03-12-09, 12:50 PM

jsmar

03-12-09, 03:23 PM

This is the map you want. http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/getattachment_exh.cgi?exhibit_id=712872&formid=346&q_num=5100

You'll see the coverage runs right into the edge of the TV-06 coverage area.

The thing to keep in mind is that they can only use antenna patterns which exist in reality. :D

- Trip

That is why I am advocating widening the antenna pattern, rather than increasing the power. They should be able to increase reception to areas that are still within the TV-06 coverage area without going "over the line" at the point where they currently are touching the edge of the TV-06 coverage area.

If you look at their antenna pattern (pattern link (http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/polarplot?frame=Y&temp=90962&rotate=105.00&p0=1.000&p10=0.947&p20=0.812&p30=0.622&p40=0.361&p50=0.086&p60=0.010&p70=0.010&p80=0.010&p90=0.010&p100=0.010&p110=0.010&p120=0.010&p130=0.010&p140=0.010&p150=0.010&p160=0.010&p170=0.010&p180=0.010&p190=0.010&p200=0.010&p210=0.010&p220=0.010&p230=0.010&p240=0.010&p250=0.010&p260=0.010&p270=0.010&p280=0.010&p290=0.010&p300=0.010&p310=0.086&p320=0.361&p330=0.622&p340=0.812&p350=0.947&p360=1.000&)) you will see that the pattern is rather narrow, and that there are definitely real world antenna patterns that are wider. Of course, this may very well mean replacing the antenna, which is not something they are likely to do in the near term.

Trip in VA

03-12-09, 03:32 PM

I doubt there is a better antenna pattern than the one they chose. I've tried to come up with DTS antenna patterns like that and it's not easy. Generally, you end up with what K47LY-D has.

This is why I suspect some stations will attempt to stick with non fill-in translators.

- Trip

milehighmike

03-12-09, 03:46 PM

Trip, you cited the same contour coverage map I used for my post.

Trip in VA

03-12-09, 03:53 PM

Trip, you cited the same contour coverage map I used for my post.

I did? I thought you linked the full application.

Either way, I doubt there's an antenna pattern that would do what you want, at least not one that could be bought "off the shelf" as they say. (I doubt they'd want to build a custom antenna for a translator)

- Trip

jsmar

03-12-09, 04:03 PM

Either way, I doubt there's an antenna pattern that would do what you want, at least not one that could be bought "off the shelf" as they say. (I doubt they'd want to build a custom antenna for a translator)

They claim they are using an array of Scala CL-1469's, but the pattern they publish is the pattern for a single CL-1469. If they are actually using an array (if they are I doubt they are using more than two) then perhaps there is an opportunity to reshape the pattern slightly. If not, perhaps a second antenna could be added to create an array, but there are limits to what you can do when creating an array that may make it difficult to widen the pattern without significantly changing the entire pattern.

jafi1

03-12-09, 05:49 PM

bretski

03-12-09, 06:41 PM

Is anyone else here using the over the air version of TVGOS(TV Guide OnScreen)?

I've lost the analog guide from KRMA and haven't had success yet picking up the digital guide from KCNC via the DTVPal I purchased for that purpose. My TVGOS enabled device is a Panasonic DMR-EH50. I've reset it and will let it search for 24 hours for the analog guide. If that doesn't work I'll put the DTVPal in TVGOS mode and see if KCNC has the digital feed up yet.

Yes, I do. TVGOS data has been transmitted on KCNC for several months now. What is your TVGOS firmware version? If you know how to run a G* test, that'll get you going with listings. Leave it tuned to 4-1, and listings will start to populate.

Tune to 4-1. <menu> <format> 9-0-1-2, then choose G* test. Within a few seconds you should see packets incrementing. VBI test may or not fail. If it does, <exit> , then run the test again (once the packets start incrementing).

You can also force the host by doing a VBI search on 4-1. You'll need to do this before going to bed, and leaving the unit off overnight. Might take a night or two for it to pick-up the digital host properly. If you need help with how to do this, let me know.

jafi1

03-12-09, 07:42 PM

Yes, I do. TVGOS data has been transmitted on KCNC for several months now. What is your TVGOS firmware version? If you know how to run a G* test, that'll get you going with listings. Leave it tuned to 4-1, and listings will start to populate.

Tune to 4-1. <menu> <format> 9-0-1-2, then choose G* test. Within a few seconds you should see packets incrementing. VBI test may or not fail. If it does, <exit> , then run the test again (once the packets start incrementing).

You can also force the host by doing a VBI search on 4-1. You'll need to do this before going to bed, and leaving the unit off overnight. Might take a night or two for it to pick-up the digital host properly. If you need help with how to do this, let me know.

Version 7.01.32 VBI Channel shows 0x9 (I changed the local zip to force a rescan).

Dang. I've tried several times over the last few months to pick up the digital TVGOS feed.
I've left it off with the DTVPal in TVGOS mode on 4-1 (and the Panny able to change the channels) for as long as 3 days and it's never picked up the KCNC feed. I have the DTVPal hooked to IN3. The G-link works fine.

In reading the Sony instructions at http://www.spiffspace.com/sonydvr.html (some of the instructions for the Panasonic and Sony to access the hidden menus is the same) http://www.spiffspace.com/sonydvr.html#Section222 I'll try the instructions after doing a hard reset since I found the same instructions for Panasonic after googling. Will update if that worked to find set the host channel to KCNC.

bretski

03-12-09, 08:13 PM

jafi1

03-12-09, 08:38 PM

I own a Sony HDD500, and have referenced that site several times. There's a huge thread on the HDD500/250 models that has a ton of info in it about TVGOS diagnostics. If you can't get the help you need there, I'd recommend that you check the DVD Recorders forum for a thread for your model, or start a new one. Otherwise, I can try to help you via PM.

Yep been reading the Sony and Panasonic DVR threads for the last year. The threads are so massive I'd missed the 963214785 code for forcing the VBI though I do vaguely recall seeing discussion of forcing the host channel. I knew about the 753159852 to get the info screens and the forced reset with the 653274147 code. Much frustration and confusion abounds around the TVGOS transition:-)

As soon as I've finished burning off what I want to keep I'll do the hard reset and try forcing the VBI, thanks for the tip.

Jim McCauley

03-13-09, 12:54 AM

jsmar: Thanks for the supportive post!

But the width of the radiation pattern seems rather narrow. I wonder if that was required in order to not interfere with some other station, or if there was some other reason for it.

Well, here is a twist: broadcasting from the same ridge, we have an analog transmitter on channel 48, a Trinity Broadcast Network affiliate. A clever person pointed out to me that if an analog station sits on the channel _above_ a digital one, the vestigial sideband on the analog channel "looks" like a power spike to a receiver that is trying to lock the lower digital channel. One probable side effect? After sundown, the effective relative "visibility" of the VSB spike increases, making the digital channel harder to lock if it is significantly weaker than the analog.

That's exactly what is happening to my reception -- it's dropping off at night. Interesting, no?

It also isn't clear to me, based on their antenna radiation pattern, why those nulls exist. Is there something in the terrain blocking reception in those directions?

It's a consequence ot the phase and amplitude mixing necessary to generate a cardioid or hypercardioid directional pattern. For certain patterns, the nulls are physically unavoidable.

I'm in contact with RMPBS engineering, and I am in hopes that they will have some useful recommendations.

Jim McCauley

jsmar

03-13-09, 07:00 PM

The FCC published new rules (http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/FCC-09-19A1.pdf) today for early termination of analog service. The interesting part is that stations have until 5:30 PM EDT on March 17th to make a filing that gives a definite date for early termination. One condition for major network stations is that they have to verify that at least one major network will remain on the air until June 12th (and will cover 90% of their analog coverage). KMGH and KUSA should be able to meet this requirement if KCNC or KDVR/KFCT remain on the air. But at least we'll know by next Wednesday (or Thursday at the latest, depending on how quickly the FCC database gets updated) which stations will be transitioning before June 12th, and the exact date that they will be transitioning on.

jsmar

03-13-09, 07:10 PM

j
Well, here is a twist: broadcasting from the same ridge, we have an analog transmitter on channel 48, a Trinity Broadcast Network affiliate. A clever person pointed out to me that if an analog station sits on the channel _above_ a digital one, the vestigial sideband on the analog channel "looks" like a power spike to a receiver that is trying to lock the lower digital channel. One probable side effect? After sundown, the effective relative "visibility" of the VSB spike increases, making the digital channel harder to lock if it is significantly weaker than the analog.

That's exactly what is happening to my reception -- it's dropping off at night. Interesting, no?

It might be interesting to try to contact Trinity Broadcasting and find out what their plans are for this station. I wonder if Trinity plans to drop most of their low power analog stations in the area once KPJR starts up (KPJR will be a full power digital Trinity station that should easily cover all of the area that channel 48 covers). I expect KPJR will start up immediately after June 12th, since they were attempting to get permission to start before February 17th (but they have to wait for KBDI to abandon RF 38).

So, if the LP channel 48 is actually contributing to your reception problems then perhaps that problem might be solved sometime after KPJR starts broadcasting.

FYI, I also noticed that K47LY-D went off the air for a few short moments multiple times today, so it is possible that they were making adjustments today.

milehighmike

03-13-09, 08:59 PM

One condition for major network stations is that they have to verify that at least one major network will remain on the air until June 12th (and will cover 90% of their analog coverage).
The rules actually state "90% of analog viewers, not coverage. That's important. KCNC, e.g, could turn down the ERP if it "volunteered" to provide the analog coverage to cover 90% of the population, not 90% of the service contour.

jsmar

03-14-09, 01:04 AM

The rules actually state "90% of analog viewers, not coverage. That's important. KCNC, e.g, could turn down the ERP if it "volunteered" to provide the analog coverage to cover 90% of the population, not 90% of the service contour.

Yes, that is important. The rules also say that it doesn't have to be one station that provides that coverage. That's why I mentioned KDVR and KFCT. They have been advertising that they will not be transitioning until June 12th, so I doubt that they are going to change their minds. Their combined coverage should easily cover 90% of the population. This will allow KMGH and KUSA, who have already said that they were considering transitioning early, to be able to transition regardless of whether or not KCNC decides to terminate their analog service early (but I think they have also committed to keeping their analog service going until June 12, since they are an O&O by CBS station).

kenavs

03-14-09, 02:19 AM

Yes, that is important. The rules also say that it doesn't have to be one station that provides that coverage. That's why I mentioned KDVR and KFCT. They have been advertising that they will not be transitioning until June 12th, so I doubt that they are going to change their minds. Their combined coverage should easily cover 90% of the population. This will allow KMGH and KUSA, who have already said that they were considering transitioning early, to be able to transition regardless of whether or not KCNC decides to terminate their analog service early (but I think they have also committed to keeping their analog service going until June 12, since they are an O&O by CBS station).
I don't feel the community is harmed by KCNC analog staying on the air (except for the wasted electricity and the delay in taking the tower down), so I don't really care that much. I don't think transmissions on channel 4 effect any other stations and KCNC digital seems to be in its final configuration.

It would be nice to have KMGH and KUSA make their transitions, so people would be able to experience their permanent configurations. If anyone need to do antenna work, there should be plenty of good weather around here in late April or early May.

I would like to see KTVD terminate analog also. If they vacate their equipment on Mt Morrison, perhaps KRMA (UHF 18) would be able to use their current analog antenna (UHF 20). Even if they can't use the antenna, the location at the top of the tower would be freed up. I suspect that KRMA would have very good coverage if they were using an antenna at the top of that tower with their currently authorized power. Many people have reported great reception of KTFD which operates at a similar frequency from a location well below the top of that tower. I believe KTFD is at about twice the current power of KRMA, but I think most of us would have no problem, even at current KRMA power levels, if KRMA had that location at the top of the tower.

If all that happened, the only big thing a lot of us would probably look for help from would be the KBDI move from UHF 38 to VHF 13, which depends on resolving the conflict with KRDO in Colorado Springs.

If those things take place, my combo antenna should get all the main stations, which are almost due south for me. That would free up my UHF only antenna, and I could point it north to improve my KPXC signal which my least sensitive tuner has trouble with it.

kucharsk

03-14-09, 02:23 AM

With the competitive nature between KCNC/KMGH/KUSA, I don't believe any one of them would be willing to cede their analog viewers to one or two of the others.

It's my opinion that for that reason all three will stay analog until whatever the flash cut date turns out to be (I'm still not convinced June 12 won't be extended further.)

milehighmike

03-14-09, 02:26 AM

Posted by jsmar:
Yes, that is important. The rules also say that it doesn't have to be one station that provides that coverage. That's why I mentioned KDVR and KFCT. They have been advertising that they will not be transitioning until June 12th, so I doubt that they are going to change their minds. Their combined coverage should easily cover 90% of the population. This will allow KMGH and KUSA, who have already said that they were considering transitioning early, to be able to transition regardless of whether or not KCNC decides to terminate their analog service early (but I think they have also committed to keeping their analog service going until June 12, since they are an O&O by CBS station).
I totally agree, with one exception. I believe KDVR/KFCT would (as would KWGN) like to shut down before 6-12-09 since KDVR has about 4 months of work on the hill before they can go full power digital.

I say shut 'em all down except KCNC, share the analog power bill, and get this over with. That'll also put a stop to all of these rediculous crawls and PSA's since, under these new rules, stations don't have to do them once they go digital only. Apparently, the FCC's goal is to have zero "not ready" on 6-12-09, as 2%, 3%, whatever, isn't good enough. It would be interesting to see what the per household cost to the stations is to brow beat the remaining "unready" into submission.

The only good thing I see in these new rules is that KUSA will have to stop showing that inaccurate PSA showing the VHF antenna replaced by the UHF antenna, not explaining that the VHF antenna is needed when they go back to channel 9.

milehighmike

03-14-09, 02:44 AM

Posted by kucharsk:
With the competitive nature between KCNC/KMGH/KUSA, I don't believe any one of them would be willing to cede their analog viewers to one or two of the others.

I have a different opinion. KCNC won't shut down because of the commitment O&O's made to the June 12 date. But KMGH and KUSA are not constrained by that commitment. I believe McGraw-Hill shut down some of its stations on 2-17-09, including one in San Diego, a similarly sized DMA to Denver. They originally filed to go on 2-17-09 but had a change of heart which because I think they got caught up in the LCG partnership - one for all, all for one. But that's changed now since KCNC can be the designated analog, so I look for them to go early. Same with KUSA. Up until this week, every one of their newscasts stated something like "KUSA will go early. We don't know exactly when, but we'll let you know". This is the station that got rid of Kendrick and Carter (presumably due to financial considerations) and has mandatory furlough days for all employees. That analog electric bill for April to June will pay 25% of Adele's $400K salary.
It's my opinion that for that reason all three will stay analog until whatever the flash cut date turns out to be (I'm still not convinced June 12 won't be extended further.)
Again, a different opinion. The extension was due to the backed up CECB coupon program. That situation be gone soon. The wireless companies will lobby the hell out of Congress if any further delay is planned. In addition, where substantially all or 100% of a DMA has already gone digital, there were few complaints that were not related to antenna problems or questions involving CECB connections. There won't be any justifiable reason to extend the cutoff beyond June 12.

kucharsk

03-14-09, 03:29 AM

But if you remember the announcements made in February:

Gannett and Hearst Argyle Television, meanwhile, said a "vast majority" of its stations will maintain analog service for the next four months, Copps said.

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2340520,00.asp

MikeBiker

03-14-09, 10:16 AM

I would really like KMGH and KUSA to do an 'early' transition. They are two of my weaker stations and, by going to VHF at full power, I'm sure that they would then become strong stations.

CEB II

03-14-09, 11:12 AM

+1

I would really like KMGH and KUSA to do an 'early' transition. They are two of my weaker stations and, by going to VHF at full power, I'm sure that they would then become strong stations.

Regarding those obnoxious crawls about the transition, does it make sense to anyone why they run them on their digital broadcasts, when the only people who see their digital broadcasts have already made the transition? Seems like they should be running it every hour on the hour on their analog broadcasts to wake up the last of the procrastinators.

milehighmike

03-14-09, 12:58 PM

Posted by CEB II:
Regarding those obnoxious crawls about the transition, does it make sense to anyone why they run them on their digital broadcasts, when the only people who see their digital broadcasts have already made the transition? Seems like they should be running it every hour on the hour on their analog broadcasts to wake up the last of the procrastinators.
The FCC requires the crawls/PSA's. Under the new rules, once a station shuts off analog, the crawls go away. That's the only reason I'd like to see the shutdown happen ASAP. I think they could do more crawls on the analog side of the house, but they'd have to separate their digital and analog feeds, like they did for the soft tests, and that's probably too much of a hassle.

WaldorfSalad

03-14-09, 01:13 PM

Why is it that FOX and NBC do the crawls but ABC and CBS do not? Also, until the original now-passed transition date FOX didn't do crawls but now they do.

kucharsk

03-15-09, 06:14 AM

Why is it that FOX and NBC do the crawls but ABC and CBS do not? Also, until the original now-passed transition date FOX didn't do crawls but now they do.

It's not the networks, but the stations that run the crawls.

The number of crawls and frequency depends on the station's "transition plan."

Note the dates in the quotes below have not been updated to reflect the new deadline, but they're the most up-to-date form (http://www.fcc.gov/Forms/Form388/388.pdf) available from the FCC:

Option One:

On its analog channel, and its primary digital stream, a station must air one transition PSA, and run one transition crawl, in every quarter of every day. This requirement will increase to two PSAs and crawls per quarter per day on April 1, 2008, and to three of each on October 1, 2008. Stations are required to air PSAs or crawls at various times in any given day part, and at least one PSA and one crawl per day must be run during primetime hours. On-air education must not contain inaccurate or misleading statements and must be provided in the same language as a majority of the programming carried by the station. PSAs must be at least 15 seconds, and closed-captioned. Crawls must run during programming for no fewer than 60 consecutive seconds across the bottom or top of the viewing area (See rules for additional details).

Option Two:

On its analog channel, and its primary digital stream, a station must run an average of 16 transition- related PSAs and 16 transition-related crawls, snipes, and/or tickers per week in each quarter, all between the hours of 5 a.m. and 1 a.m. It must also run one 30 minute DTV-related informational program once, and one 100-Day Countdown piece per day for the 100 days prior to the conclusion of the transition. Comment boxes MUST be used to describe these compliant activities (See rules for additional details).

Option Three, for noncommercial broadcasters only:

On its analog channel, and its primary digital stream, a station must air 60 seconds per day of on-air consumer education, in variable timeslots, including at least 7.5 minutes per month between 6 pm and 12 am. Beginning May 1, 2008, this requirement doubles, and beginning November 1, 2008, it increases again, to 180 seconds per day and 22.5 minutes per month between 6 pm and midnight. It must also run one 30 minute transition education piece once (See rules for additional details).

As you see, the FCC rules require that the crawls be run on both the analog channel and the "primary digital stream."

No, it doesn't make sense, but that's your tax dollars at work.

But from what I've found, all the Denver majors chose "Option Two", except for KRMA:

KCNC: Option Two (http://static.cbslocal.com/station/KCNC/DTV/KCNC_388_Q41.pdf)
KDVR: Option Two (http://kdvr.biz/DTVreport/KDVR-%204Q-2008-DTV-388.PDF)
KMGH: Option Two (http://www.thedenverchannel.com/download/2009/0112/18465333.pdf)
KRMA: Option Three (http://www.rmpbs.org/resources/files/publicfile/KRMA/02-FCC%20Applications-Related%20Materials/RMPBS%20KRMA-TV388.pdf)
KTVD: Option Two (http://www.9news.com/pdfs/KTVD-FCC388-3rd-Qtr-2008.pdf)
KUSA: Option Two (http://www.9news.com/pdfs/KUSA-FCC388-4th-Qtr-2008.pdf)
KWGN: Option Two (http://kdvr.biz/DTVreport/KWGNdtvQ2.pdf)

So at least according to their FCC filings, they all have been running crawls; as an example, KMGH's form filed 1/12/2009 states:

Total Number of Eligible DTV Transition-Related PSAs and Crawls, Snipes, and/or Tickers (CSTs) Run -- Last Quarter

For stations located in the Central or Mountain Time Zone, how many DTV PSAs and CSTs did your station run in the last quarter from 5:00 p.m. to 10:35 p.m.(must average at least 4 per week)?

Total 5:00 p.m. to 10:35 p.m. PSAs: 82
Total 5:00 p.m. to 10:35 p.m. CSTs: 120

CEB II

03-15-09, 05:41 PM

While I don't watch KMGH much, I do watch KCNC a lot and I have to agree with WaldorfSalad, that I have seldom seen a crawl or notice on KMGH or KCNC, but see them all the time on KUSA and KDVR. They may be required to do as much, but it doesn't appear that KMGH and KCNC actually do as much in this regard. Maybe the FCC should monitor them, as they are probably not doing what they are supposed to. Of course, I would just like to end the crawls and notices altogether on DTV broadcasts.

milehighmike

03-15-09, 09:16 PM

OR..........perhaps KUSA and KDVR are doing more than they have to. Why they would do that is beyond me.

WaldorfSalad

03-16-09, 02:13 AM

KUSA/9News wouldn't be so bad if they didn't squeeze the screen vertically when they do a crawl and KDVR would be so bad if they didn't switch out of HD to SD to run their crawl.

You would think there would be technology available to them by now to just overlay a crawl, without having to reformat the picture, and ideally with a transparent background.

But, it looks like we'll have to put up with another 3 months of KUSA and KDVR f**king with our picture several times each evening for several minutes at a time.

However, it could be worse, as was evidenced by the obnoxious crawls that DirecTV put on their MPEG2 HD channels (Showtime HD, Universal HD and HD Net Movies) for 2 minutes every half hour for several weeks before they killed those channels!

kucharsk

03-16-09, 03:35 AM

You would think there would be technology available to them by now to just overlay a crawl, without having to reformat the picture, and ideally with a transparent background.

There of course is, but it costs money - a lot of money.

Particularly these days, stations are loathe to drop the five to six figures required to buy an HD crawl generator and wire it into the system.

kucharsk

03-16-09, 07:09 AM

KUSA and KDVR did run more crawls than KMGH last quarter, but not by much.

However they ran a lot more than KCNC did.

Recall "CSTs" means "Crawls, Swipes and Tickers."

KCNC:

For stations located in the Central or Mountain Time Zone, how many DTV PSAs and CSTs did your station run in the last quarter from 5:00 p.m. to 10:35 p.m.(must average at least 4 per week)?

Total 5:00 p.m. to 10:35 p.m. PSAs: 66
Total 5:00 p.m. to 10:35 p.m. CSTs: 80

KMGH:

For stations located in the Central or Mountain Time Zone, how many DTV PSAs and CSTs did your station run in the last quarter from 5:00 p.m. to 10:35 p.m.(must average at least 4 per week)?

Total 5:00 p.m. to 10:35 p.m. PSAs: 82
Total 5:00 p.m. to 10:35 p.m. CSTs: 120

KUSA:

For stations located in the Central or Mountain Time Zone, how many DTV PSAs and CSTs did your station run in the last quarter from 5:00 p.m. to 10:35 p.m.(must average at least 4 per week)?

Total 5:00 p.m. to 10:35 p.m. PSAs: 109
Total 5:00 p.m. to 10:35 p.m. CSTs: 150

KDVR:

For stations located in the Central or Mountain Time Zone, how many DTV PSAs and CSTs did your station run in the last quarter from 5:00 p.m. to 10:35 p.m.(must average at least 4 per week)?

Total 5:00 p.m. to 10:35 p.m. PSAs: 69
Total 5:00 p.m. to 10:35 p.m. CSTs: 129

FWIW, an "average of four per week" CSTs would, assuming a 12 week quarter, mean a station had to run at least 48, which makes KCNC's 80 almost double that required and KUSA's 150 almost silly. :D

Audiguy3

03-16-09, 10:47 AM

Don_M

03-16-09, 12:41 PM

But, it looks like we'll have to put up with another 3 months of KUSA and KDVR f**king with our picture several times each evening for several minutes at a time.

Sorry, must disagree: June 12 arrives just as severe-weather season gets under way in earnest. Makes me shudder to think how many crawl/squeezes KUSA could run if an Eastern Plains tornado outbreak occurs on, say, June 8.

Time for a bigger tv :)

Bigger TV = bigger crawls -- and bigger image distortion.

milehighmike

03-16-09, 12:53 PM

Turn off analog - no crawls.

WaldorfSalad

03-16-09, 02:53 PM

Turn off analog - no crawls.Nah, KUSA/9News would come up with something else to annoy us with! Perhaps crawls telling us what Adele Arakawa had for dinner.

On the crawl thing, when NBC has crawls (telling you what you're watching, whats coming up next, etc) they have a banner across the bottom that is transparent and that doesn't squish the picture. Why can't the local stations do it the same way?

dbx42

03-16-09, 11:20 PM

HTMVinnie

03-17-09, 12:18 AM

It looks like I'm the only one seeing this, but
on my 2 year old Sceptre, KDVR(31) goes pixelly
and choppy audio - right at the network feed at 7:00 pm
right up to the news at 9:00, then crystal clear like usual.
Every other channel clear and strong.
I can see Lookout Mtn , and 31 signal usually 90% or better.
-db- in Wheatridge

I've noticed this as well on KDVR. I record 24 to my computer via my TV's i.Link port and on two occasions, two weeks in a row, my editing software is unable to move to the exact spot where an episode begins. Haven't seen it again since those two episodes several weeks ago though. I also see occasional pixelation during FOX networks shows, which I put down to the Terk TV-44 antenna mounted on my D*TV dish. I don't tend to watch a lot on FOX but now that you mention it, I don't normally see pixelation during the 9pm news.

milehighmike

03-17-09, 01:46 AM

KPXC filed with the FCC to keep analog going until June 12. They won't shut down until after 6:00 PM. They'll probably stay on until 11:59 PM! I'm just amazed that stations such as KPXC, not a major network affiliate, elect to literally waste 5,000 kW of ERP to keep analog on to the bitter end when they've got full power digital up and running. I must be missing something here.

kucharsk

03-17-09, 06:24 AM

dvdmth

03-17-09, 11:00 AM

I flipped on the radio to KOA this morning in the middle of a story indicating, if I heard right, that KUSA and KTVD will transition to all-digital on April 16. Can anyone confirm?

berrypete

03-17-09, 11:04 AM

KUSA this morning announces all digital as of April 16.

cgmiller80017

03-17-09, 11:13 AM

9News announced during the 6am hour that as of 12:01 am 4/16/2009 they will switch to all digital.

towermonkey

03-17-09, 11:33 AM

Anyone out there using an RCA DTA-800 series decoder and having trouble decoding audio on KCEC? I would appreciate details on your setup.

pkeegan

03-17-09, 02:06 PM

9News announced during the 6am hour that as of 12:01 am 4/16/2009 they will switch to all digital.

Will they be at full power on 4/16/2009?

jsmar

03-17-09, 02:36 PM

KUSA this morning announces all digital as of April 16.

KMGH has also announced that they will be going all digital on April 16th.

milehighmike

03-17-09, 02:42 PM

jsmar

03-17-09, 02:53 PM

I wonder if any of the Denver stations will do something "cool" for their transition. My guess is that with KUSA planning a midnight transition that they won't be doing anything interesting. Most of the interesting transitions (by other stations nationwide) have been done during the day.

What I am talking about are things like 1) station history documentaries, and/or 2) live video of the actual switch being turned off (leading to immediate snow).

I've thought about recording the analog shutdown of the stations as they go off, but I'm not very motivated to do so if it's just going to happen in the middle of whatever is normally broadcast at the time they flip the switch.

WaldorfSalad

03-17-09, 03:15 PM

Do those KUSA & KMGH announcements mean that I'll need to get a VHF antenna to supplement my current UHF one?

kenavs

03-17-09, 03:33 PM

Do those KUSA & KMGH announcements mean that I'll need to get a VHF antenna to supplement my current UHF one?
I can't find anything that states in words of one syllable that they will will move digital to their final VHF frequencies on April 16, but a post on the KUSA (9News) website leads me to suspect that might be the case.
http://www.9news.com/dtv/
KUSA-TV and KTVD-TV, Denver, Colorado, intends to permanently cease analog television service at 12:01am on April 16, 2009, a date earlier than the nation's new June 12, 2009 DTV transition date, subject to FCC approval. No analog signal will be broadcast beginning April 16, 2009 and KUSA-TV and KTVD-TV will finally be able to increase their digital operations to the full-power digital signal that has been authorized for the benefit of Denver viewers.

Due to the realignment of some station channels, you will have to rescan the frequencies on your TV tuner or digital converter box in order to find the new locations some of the local stations such as Channel 9, Channel 7, and Channel 12.

IMPORTANT: Some stations will be broadcasting on VHF bandwidths. UHF-only antennas, which are popular purchases, will not pick up VHF signals. Some antennas pick up both VHF and UHF signals. For more information on antennas, click here.

I wonder if they have info that KBDI might be changing from 38 to 13 before June 12th.

An obvious test for you is to attempt to tune in 7 and 9 analog with your existing antenna arrangment. If both come in nice and clear, you may not need to do anything.

Don_M

03-17-09, 04:42 PM

I wonder if they have info that KBDI might be changing from 38 to 13 before June 12th.

They won't. On Monday, March 16, KRDO-Colorado Springs filed a binding notification that it will shut down analog operations on channel 13 sometime between 6 a.m. and noon on June 12. Notice here (http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/cdbsmenu.hts?context=25&appn=101300357&formid=910&fac_num=52579).

kenavs

03-17-09, 04:46 PM

The KMGH Analog Service Termination Notification has been posted on the FCC website.

They checked 5d: This is BINDING notification that the above-referenced station, which IS a major network affiliate (i.e., an affiliate of ABC, CBS, FOX, or NBC), will terminate analog television broadcast signals (excluding enhanced analog nightlight service, if applicable) on the following local date:
04/16/2009 (mm/dd/yyyy) after April 15 at the following local time of day:
Early Morning (12:00 AM - 6:00 AM)

They checked 9c: CERTIFIES that the above-referenced station will RELY on the following major network affiliated station(s) to provide continuing full analog television service to its analog viewers until June 12, 2009, and that the station(s) listed individually or collectively cover, at a minimum, 90% of the population in the Grade B analog contour of the above-referenced station; and, therefore, the station does NOT need to comply with the public interest related conditions for early analog termination set forth in the Commission Report and Order, FCC 09-19, adopted March 13, 2009:
They are using KCNC as the major network station they rely on.

Update:
Ditto for KUSA, except they are also relying on KDVR (Denver) and KFCT (Ft Collins)

KTVD used 5c: This is BINDING notification that the above-referenced station, which is NOT a major network affiliate (i.e., an affiliate of ABC, CBS, FOX, or NBC), will terminate analog television broadcast signals (excluding informal analog nightlight service, if applicable) on the following date:
04/16/2009 (mm/dd/yyyy) after April 15 at the following local time of day
Early Morning (12:00 AM - 6:00 AM)

KDVR went with 5A:This is BINDING notification that the above-referenced station will terminate analog television broadcast signals (excluding statutory analog nightlight service, if applicable) on the June 12, 2009 transition deadline at the following local time of day:
Evening (6:01 PM - 11:59 PM).

KRDO Analog 13 in Colorado Springs checked 5a: This is BINDING notification that the above-referenced station will terminate analog television broadcast signals (excluding statutory analog nightlight service, if applicable) on the June 12, 2009 transition deadline at the following local time of day:
Morning (6:01 AM - 12:00 PM Noon)

I guess the KDRO decision blocks KBDI from moving from 38 to 13, unless they can work out an interference deal with them and get FCC blessing. I have no idea if such a thing is posssible.
I just noticed Don_M already noted the KRDO filing.

jsmar

03-17-09, 05:24 PM

I can't find anything that states in words of one syllable that they will will move digital to their final VHF frequencies on April 16, but a post on the KUSA (9News) website leads me to suspect that might be the case.

KMGH and KUSA will be transitioning to their final VHF frequencies on April 16th. They need permission to do so, but both stations have already applied for and gotten approval previously to do that.

It isn't stated explicitly, but you can see it between the lines. The two clues are 1) The text about the need to rescan, and 2) the text about going to "full power". The KMGH article on their website talks about the reason for doing the transition was to be able to go "full" power. If they had permission to increase power on their current pre-transition UHF frequencies then they could have already done that without terminating their analog service.

Do those KUSA & KMGH announcements mean that I'll need to get a VHF antenna to supplement my current UHF one?

An obvious test for you is to attempt to tune in 7 and 9 analog with your existing antenna arrangment. If both come in nice and clear, you may not need to do anything.

Almost any hunk of metal will pull in some VHF signal, but if the antenna was not designed for VHF reception then it may not be even as good as rabbit ears (which are designed for VHF reception). If you have a UHF only preamp then that will almost certainly filter out whatever VHF signal is coming in. As long as you don't have a UHF only preamp in your signal path then you should definitely check to see if you can get the current analog signals. If you can't get the analog signals or your reception is extremely poor then you probably should start looking at adding a VHF antenna. If you get a good analog signal then you are probably going to be OK, but there are no guarantees.

FYI, I get both KMGH and KUSA analog reasonably clearly with my CM4228 UHF only antenna. During their two (unannounced) tests of digital on RF7 and RF9 I was able to get a an acceptably good (no dropouts) digital signal for KMGH with my antenna, but I was only able to get an acceptable digital signal at the end of the second KUSA test. I have no idea what the power levels of those tests were, but anecdotal evidence indicates that KUSA was not testing at full power, at least not until the end of their second test.

Note that if you buy a VHF antenna you don't need one that supports Low VHF. You can get a high VHF only antenna, which can be significantly smaller than one that is designed to pull in low VHF. If you don't care about KBDI you can even consider getting a single frequency VHF antenna for channel 8. Such an antenna would receive channels 7 and 9 with better strength than most high VHF antenna's designed for the whole range (7-13), and would probably be smaller also. It also might be worth considering replacing your existing UHF antenna with a High VHF/UHF combo antenna, depending on the quality and condition of your existing UHF antenna.

Don_M

03-17-09, 06:04 PM

I guess the KDRO decision blocks KBDI from moving from 38 to 13, unless they can work out an interference deal with them and get FCC blessing. I have no idea if such a thing is possible.

I was pretty categorical about this after looking at KRDO's analog service contour (http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=TV24409.html): It covers the southern two-thirds of the Denver metro area and seriously overlaps KBDI's DTV-13 contour (http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=DT1259192.html). That implies a great deal of interference, so there's no scenario under which KBDI can start up on 13 without KRDO analog's shutdown.

jsmar

03-17-09, 06:07 PM

KCNC will be "transitioning" in the afternoon (12-6pm) on June 12th. I put transition in quotes because they are already at full power for their digital service, and they won't be completely terminating analog either, because they are still planning on providing nightlight service after June 12th.

However, the afternoon shutdown of normal analog service gives me hope for a "Cool" transition (see previous post above about cool transitions), i.e. perhaps during/at the end of local news as part of coverage of their ending analog service.

Trip in VA

03-17-09, 06:12 PM

All of the stations have to file their digital intentions with the FCC by 5:30 PM EDT. Usually, the filings are posted after midnight EDT (10:00 here). Go to http://www.fcc.gov/mb/video/tvq.html, input the call letters, click TV Query detailed, click on Application Info, then Correspondence Folder.

If you want to save a bit of pain, I've linked directly to station Correspondence Folders off my website. In the case of Denver:

http://www.rabbitears.info/market.php?mktid=25

Expand out the station you want to see, then expand Technical Data, it's the third link on the first line under that. :)

Might be quicker.

- Trip

dvdmth

03-17-09, 06:24 PM

KWGN: No filing
KCNC: 6/12 afternoon
KRMA: 6/12 evening
KMGH: 4/16 early morning, relying on KCNC
KUSA: 4/16 early morning, relying on KCNC, KDVR, KFCT
KTFD: 6/12 evening
KTVD: 4/16 early morning
KFCT: 6/12 evening
KDEN: 6/12 afternoon
KDVR: 6/12 evening
KRMT: 4/30 early morning
KCEC: Two filings, one 6/12 morning, one 6/12 evening
KPXC: 6/12 evening

Audiguy3

03-17-09, 11:01 PM

WaldorfSalad

03-18-09, 02:18 AM

kucharsk

03-18-09, 09:34 AM

By the way, the crawls are going to get even longer and more annoying:

o Beginning April 1, 2009, if the FCC’s Signal Loss Report predicts that 2 percent or more of the population in a station’s Grade B analog service contour will not receive the station’s digital signal, the station must air service loss notices. These notices are in addition to the existing consumer education requirements.

o Beginning April 1, 2009, all stations must include information about the use of antennas as part of their consumer education campaign, including information concerning a station’s change from the VHF to UHF bands.

o Beginning April 1, 2009, all stations must include information in their consumer education campaigns to inform and remind viewers about the importance of periodically using the rescan function of their digital televisions and digital converter boxes.

o Beginning April 1, 2009, as part of its DTV consumer education campaign, every station must air notices providing the location and operating hours of walk-in DTV help centers in the station’s market area; the FCC Call Center telephone number and TTY number; and the station’s telephone number for receiving consumer referrals and calls from local viewers.

http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/FCC-09-19A1.pdf

cia_viewer

03-18-09, 09:43 AM

KWGN: 34 = 2.1 No filing
KCNC: 35 = 4.1 6/12 afternoon
KRMA: 18 = 6.1 6/12 evening
KMGH: 17>7=7.1 4/16 early morning, relying on KCNC
KUSA: 16>9=9.1 4/16 early morning, relying on KCNC, KDVR, KFCT
KBDI: 38>13=12.1 ???
KTFD: 15 = 14.1 6/12 evening
KTVD: 19 = 20.1 4/16 early morning
KFCT: 21 = 22.1 6/12 evening
KDEN: 29 = 25.1 6/12 afternoon
KDVR: 32 = 31.1 6/12 evening
KRMT: 19 = 40.1 4/30 early morning
KCEC: 51 = 50.1 Two filings, one 6/12 morning, one 6/12 evening
KPXC: 43 = 59.1 6/12 evening

Post Transition: Upper VHF = 7-13 and UHF = 14-51
Re: http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Archive/Alt/alt.tv.tech.hdtv/2008-02/msg00011.html

milehighmike

03-18-09, 01:17 PM

Absent from the list is KWHD, 53-1 operating on channel 46. In approximately August 2009, the station will move from channel 46 to channel 45. It shut off analog in January 2009.

KMGH's "early" transition will enable KZCO, which is carried as subchannel 7-27, to go digital on channel 17.

In another thread, I saw a posting that KWGN is staying analog until June 12.

jsmar

03-18-09, 01:24 PM

FYI, KUSA and KMGH did some testing of their digital service on RF7 and RF9 last night. I still did not get an acceptable signal on RF9, so I am continuing to hope that they are not testing at full power.

rthurlow

03-18-09, 05:03 PM

I was pretty categorical about this after looking at KRDO's analog service contour (http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=TV24409.html): It covers the southern two-thirds of the Denver metro area and seriously overlaps KBDI's DTV-13 contour (http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=DT1259192.html). That implies a great deal of interference, so there's no scenario under which KBDI can start up on 13 without KRDO analog's shutdown.

We could wistfully hope for an equipment malfunction :-) It's going to suck when I can't get KBDI because I need to switch to my lower-gain VHF-UHF preamp.

jsmar

03-18-09, 07:33 PM

KRMA changed the "service type" field for channel 6.5 (the AINC reading channel) from 2 (indicating ATSC television) to 3 (indicating ATSC audio only) today. That might make a difference for some tuners that could not get the audio before. I'm curious if anyone who could not previously get the audio on 6.5 can get it now.

milehighmike

03-19-09, 01:52 AM

rthurlow

03-19-09, 11:02 AM

cgmiller80017

03-19-09, 11:54 AM

The only receiver I have that can't decode 6-5's audio, my E*222, still doesn't decode it.

I saw an ad tonight on KUSA (I think it was after the news but before Leno) that promoted My20's 9:00 PM newscast, stating that, and I'm paraphrasing, "soon, you'll only have two choices for news at 9:00 PM; we want you to choose us." I presume KWGN is dumping its 9:00 PM news?

As of March 30th, KWGN 2 aka The Deuce will be moving their newscast to 7pm and moving their outstanding prime time programming:( to 8pm-10pm. The Denver Post ran an article on it yesterday.

http://www.denverpost.com/entertainment/ci_11940495

Trip in VA

03-19-09, 12:41 PM

Exactly what KPLR did in St Louis...

- Trip

Rick313

03-19-09, 01:20 PM

As of March 30th, KWGN 2 aka The Deuce will be moving their newscast to 7pm and moving their outstanding prime time programming:( to 8pm-10pm.

That stinks! To me, one of the advantages of living in the Central or Mountain times zones is that prime time starts at 7pm rather than 8pm. I hope all stations don't start doing that.

HDJello

03-19-09, 03:12 PM

That stinks! To me, one of the advantages of living in the Central or Mountain times zones is that prime time starts at 7pm rather than 8pm. I hope all stations don't start doing that.

Well CW only has a two-hour prime time, so they still end at 10:00 here. I doubt CBS, ABC, or NBC would follow-suit. Fox also has a two-hour prime time but I haven't heard anything about them moving.

Falcon_77

03-19-09, 03:35 PM

That stinks! To me, one of the advantages of living in the Central or Mountain times zones is that prime time starts at 7pm rather than 8pm. I hope all stations don't start doing that.

I'm in the Pacific Time zone and would much prefer the networks showing everything "live," i.e. when the East Coast sees it. But then, I have a DVR. :D

I suppose pushing programming back to as late as possible, discourages the use of DVR's.

This reminds me of NBC during the Olympics when nothing was "Live" for us in the West.

dvdmth

03-19-09, 03:45 PM

KWGN was late filing their transition plan. They are shutting down analog 6/12 in the evening (big surprise, I'm sure).

kucharsk

03-19-09, 11:09 PM

My Dish receiver still doesn't like it. My DirecTivo is OK.

Curious, as my S3 TiVo doesn't see 6-5 at all.

(Until recently it didn't much like 6-3, either.)

KWGN was late filing their transition plan. They are shutting down analog 6/12 in the evening (big surprise, I'm sure).

Also curious, as if you remember right after the delay bill was passed, KWGN had a message on their web site saying they intended to go early.

I haven't watched anything from the CW since Gilmore Girls ended and Paramount stopped running their HD movies and so, aside from an occasional view of Regis & Kelly in the morning, KWGN's almost a non-issue for me.

MikeBiker

03-19-09, 11:37 PM

Isn't KWGNs digital transmission already at full power?

WaldorfSalad

03-20-09, 12:09 AM

I'm in S. Lafayette and get locals just fine via OTA on my DirectTV HDTivo (HR10-250) receiver, with the exception of KRMA which there is no longer any sign of. Did they switch channels/frequencies, go off the air, or what?

jsmar

03-20-09, 01:42 AM

Isn't KWGNs digital transmission already at full power?

No, KWGN and KDVR are not at full power. They can't go full power until they turn off their analog service, because they don't have room for the needed equipment without first removing the analog transmitter equipment. They also plan to do some antenna changes. Previously, when the transition date was February 17th, they were saying they would not be at full power until sometime in August. So, now with the transition date being June 12th I would estimate that they won't be full power until December, assuming that the construction schedule would still be the same as before, just delayed 4 months.

kucharsk

03-20-09, 01:44 AM

No, KWGN and KDVR are not at full power. They can't go full power until they turn off their analog service, because they don't have room for the needed equipment without first removing the analog transmitter equipment.

I thought they were down on power because of total RF emissions and couldn't go full power until they eliminated the RF from their analog transmitters.

milehighmike

03-20-09, 02:14 AM

I believe jsmar is correct - it's a space issue. I didn't look, so I don't have a direct link, but KWGN filed for an STA quite some time ago to be below full power until August and described the space issue in its application.

kucharsk

03-20-09, 09:04 AM

rthurlow

03-20-09, 09:20 PM

WaldorfSalad

03-22-09, 06:43 PM

KMGH and KUSA will be transitioning to their final VHF frequencies on April 16th. They need permission to do so, but both stations have already applied for and gotten approval previously to do that.

It isn't stated explicitly, but you can see it between the lines. The two clues are 1) The text about the need to rescan, and 2) the text about going to "full power". The KMGH article on their website talks about the reason for doing the transition was to be able to go "full" power. If they had permission to increase power on their current pre-transition UHF frequencies then they could have already done that without terminating their analog service.

Almost any hunk of metal will pull in some VHF signal, but if the antenna was not designed for VHF reception then it may not be even as good as rabbit ears (which are designed for VHF reception). If you have a UHF only preamp then that will almost certainly filter out whatever VHF signal is coming in. As long as you don't have a UHF only preamp in your signal path then you should definitely check to see if you can get the current analog signals. If you can't get the analog signals or your reception is extremely poor then you probably should start looking at adding a VHF antenna. If you get a good analog signal then you are probably going to be OK, but there are no guarantees.

FYI, I get both KMGH and KUSA analog reasonably clearly with my CM4228 UHF only antenna. During their two (unannounced) tests of digital on RF7 and RF9 I was able to get a an acceptably good (no dropouts) digital signal for KMGH with my antenna, but I was only able to get an acceptable digital signal at the end of the second KUSA test. I have no idea what the power levels of those tests were, but anecdotal evidence indicates that KUSA was not testing at full power, at least not until the end of their second test.

Note that if you buy a VHF antenna you don't need one that supports Low VHF. You can get a high VHF only antenna, which can be significantly smaller than one that is designed to pull in low VHF. If you don't care about KBDI you can even consider getting a single frequency VHF antenna for channel 8. Such an antenna would receive channels 7 and 9 with better strength than most high VHF antenna's designed for the whole range (7-13), and would probably be smaller also. It also might be worth considering replacing your existing UHF antenna with a High VHF/UHF combo antenna, depending on the quality and condition of your existing UHF antenna.I currently have one of these UHF antennas...
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=PR9018
http://www.solidsignal.com/manuals/WINPR9018.pdf
No preamps or anything, just a 50' RG6 cable run.
It gets my HD locals just fine. I now its UHF only but is there any chance it could get those VHF channels if thats what they end up doing? I'm only intersted in getting KWGN 2-1, KCNC 4-1, KRMA 6-1, KMGH 7-1, KUSA 9-1 and KDVR 31-1.

Or, am I going to need something like this....
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=HD7694P
Or this...
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=CM2016
Or this...
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=HBU22
Note: It can't be too big and ugly as its on top of the pergola cover over our patio and I'm way too old to be single again!

WaldorfSalad

03-22-09, 07:30 PM

None of the above. I was watching KRMA via RF 18 last night, and it's also working right now.Nothing identifable on frequency #18. I've looked at all frequencies and can't find KRMA on any of them. My UHF Yagi antenna is pointed toward Lookout Mountain and all the other channels are coming in at 90% or better.

kucharsk, I'm not that far from you in S. Lafayette. Are you able to get KRMA OK over there in Louisville?

How about anyone else in Lafayette, are you able to get KRMA?

Whats odd is that I had no problem getting KRMA until maybe about a month ago and nothing has changed at my end in the meantime.

Don_M

03-22-09, 08:13 PM

... I'm only intersted in getting KWGN 2-1, KCNC 4-1, KRMA 6-1, KMGH 7-1, KUSA 9-1 and KDVR 31-1. ...

The 7694 would be a good choice. Rather than replacing the PR-9018 with a single 7-69 antenna (unless it's, say, well over a decade old), you may wish to consider combining it with a 7-13 model like AntennaCraft's Y5-7-13 (http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=Y5-7-13). Use a UVSJ (http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=UVSJ) to couple signals from each antenna into a single downlead. The VHF antenna goes at least 3 feet below the UHF antenna if using the same mast for both. A combination 9018/Y5 would perform about as well as the 7694 on VHF and better on UHF (and be significantly better in both bands than the 2016 or HBU22).

kucharsk

03-22-09, 09:41 PM

kucharsk, I'm not that far from you in S. Lafayette. Are you able to get KRMA OK over there in Louisville?

No problems with KRMA here.

Granted, I don't watch them much as 480i SD isn't my idea of a good use of a digital channel. :D

Still, I flip by them often enough to know I haven't seen them tiling or gone completely whenever I've looked, though admittedly it's always after sunset, so if there's a signal problem with KRMA during the day I'd never know it.

However… looking at my signal meter, it appears their level is down, with a SNR of around 20.3 dB (according to my Sony HDTV) where historically it's usually been around 22 dB or so; historically KRMA-DT has usually come in very slightly below KDEN-DT for me, and they're showing a SNR of 23.2 dB.

Sonic icons

03-22-09, 10:55 PM

WaldorfSalad,

I am in Lafayette, and recently started watching OTA using the latest RS "budget" indoor antenna (I also subscribe to Comcast basic, and have a switch to select between antenna and cable). I receive 9 digital channels without a problem, and KMGH-DT (7.1, real channel 17) with occasional dropouts. I also get strong signals from analog KMGH (7) and KUSA (9). However, I get nothing from KRMA-DT (6.1, real channel 18); I have rescanned several times, at night, with no luck.

In addition, looking back through this thread, I see many complaints of poor or no reception of KRMA-DT, especially in eastern Boulder County. Some people suggest that the source of these problems is a funky location for the KRMA-DT transmitter on Mt Morrision, only 39 feet above ground level on a structure called the "Ice Bridge". The low height of the transmitter causes the signal to be "shadowed" by topographic features of the mountain or nearby buildings. Try a thread search on the phrase "Ice Bridge", you will find some interesting comments starting with post #1248 from Kucharsk.

The KRMA-DT situation is expected to improve greatly some time after the shutdown of analog KTVD 20, which is now scheduled for April 16. That is because KRMA-DT will move to the top of the tower where the KTVD 20 transmitter is now, and also increase its power, resulting in much better coverage.

User rbphilip posted the following comment, apparently a letter or e-mail from KRMA, in post #3474 of the Denver Comcast forum (before it was known that KTVD 20 will shut down April 16):

The dates to upgrade to 1080i for Rocky Mountain PBS have changed since the transition has been postponed. We don't know the official date of the transition yet, but it sounds like it will be June 12th. If that is the case we will upgrade to 1080i during June or July. Rocky Mountain PBS is moving our digital equipment onto a tower currently occupied by channel 20 analog equipment. After the transition the company will remove their analog equipment and then our digital equipment will be moved onto the tower and then we will broadcast at full power (1Mw). We apologize for the delay to upgrade to 1080i, but we can't change the format until we discontinue airing our analog broadcast and move onto the tower.

Sonic icons

03-22-09, 11:02 PM

WaldorfSalad

03-22-09, 11:20 PM

WaldorfSalad,

I am in Lafayette, and recently started watching OTA using the latest RS "budget" indoor antenna (I also subscribe to Comcast basic, and have a switch to select between antenna and cable). I receive 9 digital channels without a problem, and KMGH-DT (7.1, real channel 17) with occasional dropouts. I also get strong signals from analog KMGH (7) and KUSA (9). However, I get nothing from KRMA-DT (6.1, real channel 18); I have rescanned several times, at night, with no luck.

In addition, looking back through this thread, I see many complaints of poor or no reception of KRMA-DT, especially in eastern Boulder County. Some people suggest that the source of these problems is a funky location for the KRMA-DT transmitter on Mt Morrision, only 39 feet above ground level on a structure called the "Ice Bridge". The low height of the transmitter causes the signal to be "shadowed" by topographic features of the mountain or nearby buildings. Try a thread search on the phrase "Ice Bridge", you will find some interesting comments starting with post #1248 from Kucharsk.

The KRMA-DT situation is expected to improve greatly some time after the shutdown of analog KTVD 20, which is now scheduled for April 16. That is because KRMA-DT will move to the top of the tower where the KTVD 20 transmitter is now, and also increase its power, resulting in much better coverage.

User rbphilip posted the following comment, apparently a letter or e-mail from KRMA, in post #3474 of the Denver Comcast forum (before it was known that KTVD 20 will shut down April 16):Thanks for the vaildation? When I check frequency 18 there is a signal but it bounces madly between 0 and about 20%, not enough to enable my HR10-250 to register the channel name.

Where in Lafayette are you? I'm in a subdivision (SouthPointe) just to the NW of Hwy 287 / Dillon / NW Pkway which is quite low down. IIRC, kucharsk is up quite a bit higher in the S. Boulder Rd + McCaslin area. So maybe down low here in S. Lafayette we're in a bit of a null area.

jsmar

03-22-09, 11:22 PM

The dates to upgrade to 1080i for Rocky Mountain PBS have changed since the transition has been postponed. We don't know the official date of the transition yet, but it sounds like it will be June 12th. If that is the case we will upgrade to 1080i during June or July. Rocky Mountain PBS is moving our digital equipment onto a tower currently occupied by channel 20 analog equipment. After the transition the company will remove their analog equipment and then our digital equipment will be moved onto the tower and then we will broadcast at full power (1Mw). We apologize for the delay to upgrade to 1080i, but we can't change the format until we discontinue airing our analog broadcast and move onto the tower.

I don't understand this excuse. Upgrading to 1080i should have absolutely nothing to do with the transmitter or antenna. 1080i support is something that is done in the studio, not at the transmitter.

rthurlow

03-22-09, 11:38 PM

Quick addition: it isn't obvious how KRMA will schedule their digital transmitter "upgrade" now that two key events are scheduled for different dates, shutdown of KTVD analog on April 16 and shutdown of KRMA analog on June 12. Maybe someone can get more information from KRMA.

This page was updated on Thursday:

http://www.rmpbs.org/panorama/index.cfm/entry/434/UPDATE:-Our-DTV-transition-plan-

A quote:

On May 19, 2009 KRMA will increase power of our digital signal from our site on Mt. Morrison from 315kW ERP to 1,000kW (1MW or 1 million watts) We will also begin broadcasting with a new antenna from the top of the tower on Mt. Morrison which, coupled with the increase in power should resolve most of the signal reception problems our viewers experience with in our coverage area.

Nice if true.

kenavs

03-23-09, 01:45 AM

Thanks for the vaildation? When I check frequency 18 there is a signal but it bounces madly between 0 and about 20%, not enough to enable my HR10-250 to register the channel name.

Where in Lafayette are you? I'm in a subdivision (SouthPointe) just to the NW of Hwy 287 / Dillon / NW Pkway which is quite low down. IIRC, kucharsk is up quite a bit higher in the S. Boulder Rd + McCaslin area. So maybe down low here in S. Lafayette we're in a bit of a null area.
On the Rocky Mountain PBSwebsite there is an interactive coverage map.http://www.rmpbs.org/map/
The only entries I noticed for the Ls(Louisville, Lafayette, Longmont, Loveland ) that were not poor or spotty are a couple of Longmont viewers with amplified outdoor antennas.

I am one of the strong believers that the big problem is the current location of the KRMA-DT antenna on the ice bridge. It sure looks like the signal to the north is being blocked by the local terrain and/or structures. The KPXC transmitter building looks to be on a line between the KRMA anntenna and us. I strongly suspect the structure is the big issue. I understand that a structure like the KPXC building is ignored by the theoretical coverage maps submitted to the FCC.

If KRMA-DT moves to the top of the tower, where KTVD analog is now transmitting, I expect a huge improvement. The KTFD digital antenna is on UHF 15 (pretty close to the UHF 18 of KRMA-DT) and is on that tower and well down from the top. Many of the Ls (myself included) who have troube with KRMA-DT get a very strong signal from KTFD. I expect the move up the tower will completely solve my problems. I don't think I will need the power power boost, but it should not hurt. The move, plus the added power, should have a big impact on Loveland, Ft. Collins. etc.

I am in Louiville and have a passive outdoor antenna in a second floor closet that works great for Lookout Mountain, and Mt Morrison except for KRMA-DT which it cannot get a sniff of. It even gets KBDI-DT off Squaw Mt and KPXC-DT off the back side.

I have an antenna in the attic with a CM7777 preamp that gets KRMA-DT, most of the time, and does great with all the stations the other antenna gets except for KPXC-DT. The signal it gets from KPXC off the back side is weak enough that my least sensitive tuner has a lot of trouble with it.

I look forward to the KRMA-DT changes promissed for May 19.

milehighmike

03-23-09, 01:48 AM

Posted by jsmar:
I don't understand this excuse. Upgrading to 1080i should have absolutely nothing to do with the transmitter or antenna. 1080i support is something that is done in the studio, not at the transmitter.
I'm no expert, but I believe the transmitter has to have the capability to pass HD.

I just checked the FCC website. I don't recall KRMA ever transmitting with 315 kW of ERP. I thought they were at 115 kW ERP. The FCC website doesn't show either, only application/construction permit filings for 1 mW ERP.

Trip in VA

03-23-09, 01:55 AM

Posted by jsmar:

I'm no expert, but I believe the transmitter has to have the capability to pass HD.

No such thing. Bits are bits, whatever they encode.

Besides, even if that was true, they were doing HD off the satellite with this same gear, were they not?

- Trip

milehighmike

03-23-09, 02:00 AM

Posted by Trip:
No such thing. Bits are bits, whatever they encode.

Besides, even if that was true, they were doing HD off the satellite with this same gear, were they not?
Well, then I'm a little confused. If KRMA could pass HD before and they can't now, what's changed?

kenavs

03-23-09, 02:09 AM

Posted by Trip:

Well, then I'm a little confused. If KRMA could pass HD before and they can't now, what's changed?

Perhaps the 3 sub-channels. Their current equipment may not be able to divide the spectrum between an HD subchannel and 2 SD subchannels. That is just speculation on my part.

I believe they were doing some HD on 6-1 after they added 6-2, but before they added 6-3.

milehighmike

03-23-09, 02:22 AM

kucharsk

03-23-09, 02:41 AM

KRMA can broadcast in HD; they choose not to.

They decided for financial reasons a while back to stop broadcasting the PBS HD stream, and when they started mirroring their analog channel 24x7 and added Create is when they went to full-time 480i for 6-1.

Here's what the RMPBS web site currently has to say on the topic of the transition as it relates to KRMA:

As filed with the Federal Communications Commission, our dates for cessation of Analog high-power program transmission are:

…

KRMA/Channel 6 – June 12, 2009 at midnight

KRMA will remain in "Statutory Analog Nightlight Service" until July 12, 2009. Statutory Analog Nightlight Service consists of notification information to inform viewers where and how to receive the broadcast programming of Rocky Mountain PBS, now being broadcast exclusively in Digital.

On May 19, 2009 KRMA will increase power of our digital signal from our site on Mt. Morrison from 315kW ERP to 1,000kW (1MW or 1 million watts) We will also begin broadcasting with a new antenna from the top of the tower on Mt. Morrison which, coupled with the increase in power should resolve most of the signal reception problems our viewers experience with in our coverage area.

KRMA digital will continue to transmit on broadcast channel 18, and our KRMA viewers will continue to tune to "Channel 6" (6-1, 6-2, and 6-3) to receive our KRMA programming.

…
http://www.rmpbs.org/panorama/index.cfm/entry/434/UPDATE:-Our-DTV-transition-plan-

jsmar

03-23-09, 03:27 PM

I think you may be right, but I was also thinking that if they changed out transmitters, going from 115 kW to 315 kW, that that may have been the reason they stopped passing HD. I guess the only way to find out for sure is to ask them.

The final transport stream consists of a multiplex of various video and audio streams of varying bandwidths, but the total transport stream is a fixed bandwidth (i.e. individual streams can vary in their bandwidth, but the total bandwidth is fixed -- null packets are inserted in the stream to bring the total bandwidth up to a fixed rate defined by the 8VSB ATSC encoding standard for terrestrial broadcasting). It is this final multiplex of streams that the transmitter sees, and it does not care what is contained in each packet, and therefore does not care about whether one of the video streams inside the multiplex is an HD video stream. In fact it could contain a video stream that doesn't even meet ATSC standards and would be undecodable by most tuners. The transmitter would not care.

The ability that KRMA is missing is the ability to encode their own HD programming. They can take (and have in the past) an already encoded HD stream from PBS via satellite and mix it in with other subchannels and send it to their transmitter. But this means that they can't do station identifications, PSA's, local "commercials" (i.e. brought to you by ...), fundraising, etc. When they were sending HD programming they were not sending a subchannel that contained the same programming that was available on their analog channel. I believe at the time they were doing this they did not even have the ability to digitally encode their own SD programming, i.e. all the programming on all the subchannels were from national feeds with absolutely no indication that KRMA was the broadcaster (other than the PSIP data).

Once they got the equipment to encode their own SD programming it was a priority for them to have a subchannel that contained their normal KRMA programming. When they added that subchannel is when they stopped sending HD programming. Most likely the reason was that they didn't have enough bandwidth to add this subchannel and still have enough room for the HD programming. Since they don't have their own HD encoder they could not choose to squish the HD programming down to make room -- they are at the mercy of whatever encoding rate is being used by the HD programming they were getting from PBS.

Now, they could have chosen to drop the V-Me subchannel. That is a programming decision on their part. They don't want to drop V-Me, instead they want to reencode the HD programming at a lower rate to make room for the subchannels, which requires hardware they don't yet have. So, instead they chose to stick with Create full time, rather than doing what they had been doing (alternating with Create during the day and PBS HD in the evening).

I suspect part of the motivation is that until they can do their fundraising in HD (even if it is upscaled SD) they won't provide an HD subchannel that most people would be watching instead of the SD subchannel that contained the fundraising. Another related possibility is that they can't justify the expense of the additional HD studio equipment until they are able to reach enough people to bring in the extra money (since fundraising is a fundamental part of supporting a non commercial station) needed to support HD programming.

Regardless, it is almost a certainty that when they bring back HD programing it will never be as good as it was before, because they will have to reencode at a lower bitrate to make room for the additional subchannels they have. I remember them claiming that the were going to use statistical multiplexing, which allows better sharing of the bandwidth, but that still won't be able to completely compensate for the lower average bandwidth available for the HD program.

milehighmike

03-23-09, 09:01 PM

Thanks for the explanation, jsmar. The reason I thought that the transmitter might be part of the equation in explaining why KRMA doesn't do HD anymore was based upon my knowledge of another station, out of market, in another part of the country.

This station, an NBC affiliate, provides TWC with a direct fiber feed and passes all of NBC's HD programming. Cable customers receive HD. However, it does not pass HD programming OTA, only SD. I thought KRMA's situation may have been similar.

Trip in VA

03-23-09, 09:18 PM

This station, an NBC affiliate, provides TWC with a direct fiber feed and passes all of NBC's HD programming. Cable customers receive HD. However, it does not pass HD programming OTA, only SD. I thought KRMA's situation may have been similar.

Are you thinking of WICU in Erie PA? They have to upgrade their microwave system to support HD and the owner of the company is... cheap. To put it nicely. The way I heard it, TW paid for the equipment to do the NBC HD straight to cable. Lilly would have to pay for their microwave system.

The transmitter itself, while low-powered to the point nobody can see it, is perfectly capable of HD. They just need to get the HD feed from the studio to the tower.

- Trip

milehighmike

03-23-09, 10:18 PM

Trip, you know waaaaaaaaaaaay toooooooooooo much. Yes, I'm referring WICU. It's receivable in my home town in western NY.

rthurlow

03-24-09, 12:06 AM

Upgrading to 1080i should have absolutely nothing to do with the transmitter or antenna. 1080i support is something that is done in the studio, not at the transmitter.

Absolutely.

I asked in the DTV transition thread about 1080i:

http://www.rmpbs.org/panorama/index.cfm/entry/434/UPDATE:-Our-DTV-transition-plan-

A quote:

"When can we expect to see high-definition programming on KRMA, and what's currently preventing that from happening?"

"Hello Rob T,
Rocky Mountain PBS will upgrade to 1080i during the middle or end of July. "

Rob T

Jim McCauley

03-24-09, 01:18 AM

The ability that KRMA is missing is the ability to encode their own HD programming.

I don't think that they can time-shift it, either, because they may not yet have local HD recording capability. They would need that because (I believe) PBS dropped their Mountain Time Zone satellite feed a while back.

Jim McCauley

milehighmike

03-24-09, 02:13 AM

kucharsk

03-24-09, 02:26 AM

Yes on the FCC, and yes on nightlight, as I quoted above:

KRMA will remain in "Statutory Analog Nightlight Service" until July 12, 2009. Statutory Analog Nightlight Service consists of notification information to inform viewers where and how to receive the broadcast programming of Rocky Mountain PBS, now being broadcast exclusively in Digital.

CEB II

03-24-09, 12:14 PM

kenavs

03-24-09, 03:04 PM

As I read these various recent posts about KRMA and I recollect all of the "poor" decisions they've made during the transition to digital time period of the last couple of years (leaving LCG, originally intending to put digital on channel 6, relatively low power, ice bridge antenna, etc.), it seems to me that they really haven't improved much by continuing taking actions that seem less than optimal to me.

I think the FCC made it very easy for PBS stations to shut off analog early during this extension period to June 12. While the GJ station has (I believe) shut down analog and the CS station is doing so May 1, why is RMPBS voluntarily keeping analog going in Denver until the bitter end? They apparently have some upgrades to make, have the opportunity to begin that process "early" with the KTVD analog shutoff on April 16, yet they make the decision to send money to Xcel for analog ERP instead. And on top of that, I believe they'll be "nightlighting" analog until July 12.

Perhaps there's going to be an Analog Fund Drive in April! I sure hope their "top" employees aren't getting any bonuses.

I suspect that part of the reason for not shutting down analog on 3/17/09 like KUSA and KWGN is the coverage problems that the digital transmitter has. KRMA has been reluctant to admit that their coverage does not agree with the plots that were submitted to the FCC, but I think they have a pretty good idea how bad it is.

I also saw a claim somewhere (I can't remember where) that there is money in the stimulus package to cover the power bills for PBS stations that kept their analog on the air after 2/17/2009. I don't know whether the claim is true, but considering what has been reported to have been put in the stimulus bill, it would come as no surprise to me.

Phil T

03-24-09, 03:35 PM

What's going on with the audio at KWGN-DT? Not long ago they were transmitting a DD5.1 audio signal, at least according to my Sony A/V receiver. Lately they are back to DD2.0. Does this somehow save them money in the current Deuce/Fox downsizing/economizing?

I have noticed for the last couple of nights that the Two and a Half Men back to back episodes at 6:00 pm are not in HD.

Are they selling their equipment to KRMA? :D

jsmar

03-24-09, 04:42 PM

I have noticed for the last couple of nights that the Two and a Half Men back to back episodes at 6:00 pm are not in HD.

Are they selling their equipment to KRMA? :D

Smallville was not in HD last Thursday. That's the only program I watch on KWGN. Has anyone seen anything in HD on KWGN recently?

Rick313

03-24-09, 08:58 PM

Has anyone seen anything in HD on KWGN recently?

Everything I've watched on KWGN-DT for the past week or so has been either SD or letterboxed HD including Everybody Loves Raymond, Two And A Half Men, and Reaper. All of these have been broadcast in HD for the past several months. On Sunday, The Drew Carey Show was postage stamped which is extremely annoying on an HDTV. I wonder if they decided that with all of the crawls it was easier to just show everything in SD rather than switch back and forth between SD and HD.

Phil T

03-24-09, 11:50 PM

Here is the answer I received tonight from the KWGN Engineering Department:

Hi Phil,
We are currently in the process of moving KWGN into the Fox 31 building and will be managed by a Localtvllc company. In order to move the HD portion of the station we had to take it offline for a short time. We hope to have it back up next week. Please stay tuned.

Thanks for watching CW2, the deuce!

________________________________

From: Phil T [mailto:pt@q.com]
Sent: Tue 3/24/2009 9:12 PM
To: CW2 Engineering
Subject: HD

I have noticed that a lot of shows that were in HD are now being
broadcast in SD. Is it an equipment issue or are you reducing your HD
programming?

Thanks,

Phil T
Littleton, CO

jsmar

03-24-09, 11:59 PM

KCNC just added a second audio track for their main (and only) channel. It's a mono track, and is marked as spanish, but right now it is just a mono version of the english track. It will probably contain spanish when a spanish track is available, similar to the second audio track on KDVR.

UHForever

03-25-09, 01:12 AM

Thanks for posting this info Phil. It's a bummer this takes sooooo long to get the equipment 11 miles north! Reaper (and everything else CW network when I've flipped by) has been SD for the past two weeks:( C'mon KWGN a.k.a Denver's 2/WB2/CW2/'2'/'The Deuce'/Whatevertheheckyou'recallingyourselvesthisweek...there's gotta be a quicker way to accomplish this. Sorry for the whining, it's just amazing how much KWGN spoiled us 'back in the day' with HD goodness...made me greedy.

Here is the answer I received tonight from the KWGN Engineering Department:

Hi Phil,
We are currently in the process of moving KWGN into the Fox 31 building and will be managed by a Localtvllc company. In order to move the HD portion of the station we had to take it offline for a short time. We hope to have it back up next week. Please stay tuned.

Thanks for watching CW2, the deuce!

________________________________

From: Phil T [mailto:pt@q.com]
Sent: Tue 3/24/2009 9:12 PM
To: CW2 Engineering
Subject: HD

I have noticed that a lot of shows that were in HD are now being
broadcast in SD. Is it an equipment issue or are you reducing your HD
programming?

Thanks,

Phil T
Littleton, CO

Karkus

03-25-09, 10:37 AM

cgmiller80017

03-25-09, 11:08 AM

Phil T

03-25-09, 11:40 AM

Once this digital transition is done, why wouldn't stations just start using their digital channels numbers? They seem to like to remake themselves over every few years anyway?

We would have News 35 at 5. :)

The Duce could become Denver's 34-12..

MY 20 become MY 19 etc.

Do you think this will happen or will stations keep their old analog numbers forever?

Trip in VA

03-25-09, 11:44 AM

Analog numbers forever, as dictated by the ATSC spec (fully adopted by the FCC) and by the marketing departments of the stations.

- Trip

jsmar

03-25-09, 12:38 PM

KRMA has been stretching their picture and letterboxing it on my TV lately (putting black bars above and below the image).
Does it appear that way on other people's widescreens TVs also?

This makes no sense. If anything they should be pillarboxing it, since presumably it's a 4:3 480i image to start with.

Is it letterboxed or window boxed on your widescreen TV? It should be window boxed, because KRMA is sending a letterboxed 4:3 480i signal. Your TV should then pillar box this image to create a window boxed picture, unless you use a zoom feature.

Some of the programming has a HD source, which hopefully some day KRMA will be able to provide to us in HD. Meanwhile, they are converting it to 480i, in which case it makes sense to letterbox it, since the source is 16:9. Since supposedly this channel is going to be an HDTV channel some day it would make sense for KRMA to produce a 16:9 480i signal (kind of like an anamorphic widescreen DVD), but not many stations do that (and perhaps their equipment isn't capable of it). The advantage of the 16:9 480i signal would be that it would preserve some of the resolution of the original 16:9 program and widescreen TV's could display it correctly.

gakon

03-25-09, 12:52 PM

LOL Thats funny. I was thinking the same thing when they annouced the would be called THE DUECE.

We should start an AVS Forum pool on when they will drop the Duece and come up witha new name. :p

Nah - I think the public access stations will start calling themselves "The Ocho" first. :D

MadMonkey

03-25-09, 02:31 PM

Rant mode on:

Is KDVR ever going to invest in a way to run crawls without having to drop down to 4:3 SD?

It's getting ultra-annoying to watch their crawl and have to see the screen shrink down and the digital audio go to hell whenever they do it.

Rant mode off.
Rant mode on:
but I LOVE the crawl. Especially the crawl sent via the HDTV signal informing me to make sure I prepare for something I HAVE ALREADY PREPARED FOR. I want them to repeat the crawl in 12" letters in every language in the universe. It needs to be translated into porcupine and rat. I hope this is transmitted to every television in the world warning them of that DENVER has an impending disaster coming unless EVERY CLUELESS MAMMAL runs out and buys a converter box. This needs to be printed on bedsheets and hamburger wrappers. I want to write the warning in reverse across the forehead of everything on the planet JUST TO MAKE SURE they get the message. I hope they continue the crawl after the changeover informing everyone that if you are reading this then you have already prepared for the transition that already happened and if you are not reading this then you need to read this.
Rant mode off.

milehighmike

03-25-09, 03:53 PM

Did you see the woman's comments in the Post this AM about letting her CECB coupons expire, getting new ones, but stating that she won't bother getting a CECB until at least June? Bet this woman is finally getting around to celebrating New Year's. If she fits the category "not ready", I'm sure glad the analog cutoff date was extended. Guess she won't be watching much ABC or NBC soon.

jsmar

03-25-09, 05:57 PM

I keep thinking that there should be (and perhaps there is) a product for broadcast stations that monitors their final transport stream and sanity checks their psip data. Most psip data is fairly static, so if a station needs to change some of the static data then they would have to change it in two locations, once in their psip generator and once in my proposed psip checker.

The reason I bring this up is that I keep seeing temporary errors in various stations psip. Sometimes the error is only there for less than a minute, other times it may go unnoticed for a few hours, or even for many days for some of the less important data.

For example, KRMT Just changed their display channel to 2.1. That's one of the most problematic errors I've seen, because most errors will only impact their own station and the error won't cause a persistant problem once the psip data is corrected, whereas if someone does a rescan right now they are going to get an extra 2.1 that won't go away until they rescan after KRMT fixes the error. Luckily KRMT's RF channel is higher than KWGN's, otherwise some tuners would remap KWGN to something other than 2.1.

At the same time KRMT changed their display channel to 2.1 they changed the channel name to "Channel" and their extended channel name to "Tandberg Service", which indicates to me that most likely they either installed new psip equipment (made by Tandberg I would guess), or they are currently having their equipment serviced.

Trip in VA

03-25-09, 06:00 PM

Yeah, sounds like they lost all their PSIP settings. I know there are some PSIP devices which default to 1-1 out of the box, but lately I've heard about more and more defaulting to 2-1 out of the box--a bad policy if you ask me.

Mapping to 1-1 or 37-1 out of the box would be better.

- Trip

Dave6833

03-25-09, 06:27 PM

Analog numbers forever, as dictated by the ATSC spec (fully adopted by the FCC) and by the marketing departments of the stations.

What about new stations? Would they be able to choose the channel number they wanted to be identified by?

Trip in VA

03-25-09, 06:37 PM

What about new stations? Would they be able to choose the channel number they wanted to be identified by?

Physical channel number if available.

If it's not available, and say the station signed on channel 2 in Denver for some unknown reason. They would map to 34-1, KWGN's physical channel number.

- Trip

rthurlow

03-25-09, 07:09 PM

When I check frequency 18 there is a signal but it bounces madly between 0 and about 20%, not enough to enable my HR10-250 to register the channel name.

WaldorfSalad,

I, too, have an HR10-250 for OTA. I notice that it is not very good at handling multipath of any kind. If I give it a signal from an antenna that points straight at the transmitter, life is good, but an off-axis signal does not make it happy. Case in point - I can't scan KRMA's RF 47 repeater in Fort Collins on my HR10-250, but the Dish receiver next to it gets a 90-95% signal from a weaker attic antenna, which is also pointed at Lookout. I wonder if something new has appeared in the path to the ice bridge location that nails you because you have a weaker receiver?

BTW, is anyone using a Tivo HD for OTA? How do their tuners seem to be?

Rob T

rthurlow

03-25-09, 07:37 PM

So I fired up the signal strength display again today, and I'm taken by how none of the really strong signals I get are for content I care about. The 90+% signals I get break down like this:

RF 11 - KQCK - the worst engineering pocket change can buy, with bankrupt content
RF 15 - KTFD - OK, once a month or so I may get a burning desire for a Mexican soap opera
RF 19 - KTVD - It's scary that this is the best of the lot; "That 70s Show", here I come
RF 29 - KDEN - Did someone mention Mexican soaps?
RF 43 - KPXC - Four ION channels and nothin' on (although my daughters like Qubo)

Next in line are probably KWGN and KCEC, which line up with the above.

The channels I want most for their content are the weakest (Hello, KBDI and KRMA!). It just seems sad (and unexpected) that the major network outlets can't outdo the marginal players. I'm also surprised that except for ION, which puts the same multicast stream into every market as far as I can tell, none of these guys are doing either high-def or multicasting. It seems a waste of good RF to push a single, simple SD stream out.

Oh yeah, I should add that RF 38 KPJR will kill people up this way with The Bible Network when they go live. I don't know what I'll want from their lineup, either, but I can guess :-)

Thoughts?

milehighmike

03-26-09, 02:14 AM

Posted by kenavs:
I also saw a claim somewhere (I can't remember where) that there is money in the stimulus package to cover the power bills for PBS stations that kept their analog on the air after 2/17/2009. I don't know whether the claim is true, but considering what has been reported to have been put in the stimulus bill, it would come as no surprise to me.
I think you are correct as I recollect the same thing. But that doesn't make it a good decision by KRMA to keep analog going. That stimulus money could be put to better use than running duplicate PBS programming.

Posted by jsmar:
For example, KRMT Just changed their display channel to 2.1.
I emailed the KRMT via their national website some time ago about their PSIP info. On some of my receivers, I only receive audio - no video. They map to 40-1 when they should be mapping to 41-1. I hope they're in the process of fixing this.

oxothuk

03-26-09, 09:37 AM

The channels I want most for their content are the weakest (Hello, KBDI and KRMA!).
I guess I am lucky to get both of them, in glorious 480i.

cia_viewer

03-26-09, 11:36 AM

WaldorfSalad,

I, too, have an HR10-250 for OTA. I notice that it is not very good at handling multipath of any kind. If I give it a signal from an antenna that points straight at the transmitter, life is good, but an off-axis signal does not make it happy. Case in point - I can't scan KRMA's RF 47 repeater in Fort Collins on my HR10-250, but the Dish receiver next to it gets a 90-95% signal from a weaker attic antenna, which is also pointed at Lookout. I wonder if something new has appeared in the path to the ice bridge location that nails you because you have a weaker receiver?

BTW, is anyone using a Tivo HD for OTA? How do their tuners seem to be?

Rob T

They seem to work fine. We can record analog KRMA 6 as well as digital KBDI 12-1,... and the 2-1,7-1,9-1, ... For the time being, I am attempting to record 6-1 as well as 6 for the News Hour. Of course this will not accomplish anything until May 19... There is even some Figure Skating this weekend on 9-1 AND 9-3.

Rick313

03-26-09, 01:59 PM

BTW, is anyone using a Tivo HD for OTA? How do their tuners seem to be?

I just purchased a Tivo HD from Sears about a week ago. That $199.99 price was too good to pass up. I'm very happy with the tuners. They seem to be slightly more sensitive than my Philips DVDR3576H.

My only complaint is that there is no way to manually make corrections to the channel lineup. You can scan for additional channels, but that doesn't get you guide information, and I think it only works for analog channels.

By the way, I do get all the major networks. The only things I don't get are KDEN-DT, KQCK-DT, and KRMT-DT because Tivo is setup for either the wrong RF channel or the wrong virtual channel. Hopefully, this will be less of an issue after the DTV transition is complete.

kenavs

03-26-09, 05:12 PM

I think you are correct as I recollect the same thing. But that doesn't make it a good decision by KRMA to keep analog going. That stimulus money could be put to better use than running duplicate PBS programming.

Based on the KRMA-DT interactive coverage map, there are probably quite a few viewers who often cannot get 6-1. It is spotty for me. Until they get a higher antenna, the digital coverage stinks, and I think they know that. I will not defend how they got where they are, but reality is reality. For many of us, it is a good thing that they are keeping KRMA analog active until they make the changes to digital that are promissed for May.

Considering the PBS culture, it also makes sense. Obama wants them to. The House Dems and the whole Senate blessed it. The FCC acting chairman would rather that all stations keep their analog on the air. The only downsides are wasted electricity and associated carbon emitions (The environmentalists have been silent on this, but I presume that is because Bush caused the problems that make the action absolutely necessary), and some wasted stimulus dollars(that amount will probably be small enough to be lost in the round off of questionable expenditures buried in the stimuls bill).

milehighmike

03-26-09, 05:14 PM

Posted by Rick313:
By the way, I do get all the major networks. The only things I don't get are KDEN-DT, KQCK-DT, and KRMT-DT because Tivo is setup for either the wrong RF channel or the wrong virtual channel. Hopefully, this will be less of an issue after the DTV transition is complete.
I don't think your TIVO is the problem. On some of my receivers, KDEN incorrectly maps to 29-1, indicating something awry with the PSIP info. KQCK may never have PSIP info (they haven't so far), and KRMT incorrectly maps to 40-1. I think KRMT incorrectly thinks it's supposed to map to 40-1 instead of 41-1. Their call sign page seen at the top of the hour states channel 41 (for analog), digital 40-1.

Rick313

03-26-09, 07:11 PM

I don't think your TIVO is the problem. On some of my receivers, KDEN incorrectly maps to 29-1, indicating something awry with the PSIP info. KQCK may never have PSIP info (they haven't so far), and KRMT incorrectly maps to 40-1.

It's actually a combination of problems partly Tivo, and partly PSIP.

Tivo has KDEN-DT incorrectly mapped to 25-3 rather than 25-1, so I assume that is the reason why it won't display.

Tivo has KRMT-DT correctly mapped to 41-1 but it is looking for it on RF 19 rather than RF 40. Unfortunately, even if it had the correct RF channel, it would not display due to KRMT's screwed up PSIP.

Tivo has KQCK-DT correctly mapped to 33-1, but the lack of PSIP data in the broadcast prevents it from being displayed. Tivo also thinks that KQCK-DT is an ABC affiliate, so its guide data would be useless anyway. Ironically, the guide data for KQDK-CA is correct.

Luckily, none of these stations are of that much interest to me. Still, it's frustrating to have no control to correct mapping issues like this.

milehighmike

03-26-09, 08:58 PM

My Windows Media Center on my PC has some of the same problems as the TIVO. I had to edit a file to allow it to "see" KRMT and KQCK. WMC, just like the TIVO, looks for 41-1 and 33-1 in the PSIP info and, of course, can't find it. Unfortunately, you apparently can't edit the software on the TIVO.

rthurlow

03-27-09, 01:59 AM

Tivo has KDEN-DT incorrectly mapped to 25-3 rather than 25-1, so I assume that is the reason why it won't display.

This started working on my HR10-250 awhile ago; 25-1 and 25-3 both take me to something with both picture and sound. That wasn't true a month ago.

Tivo has KRMT-DT correctly mapped to 41-1 but it is looking for it on RF 19 rather than RF 40. Unfortunately, even if it had the correct RF channel, it would not display due to KRMT's screwed up PSIP.

Again, this works better for me for some reason; 40-1 works but has no guide data, and 41-1 has guide data for KRMT but displays KTVD.

Tivo has KQCK-DT correctly mapped to 33-1, but the lack of PSIP data in the broadcast prevents it from being displayed. Tivo also thinks that KQCK-DT is an ABC affiliate, so its guide data would be useless anyway. Ironically, the guide data for KQDK-CA is correct.

KQCK remains an experiment in how badly you can screw up everything about TV broadcasting.

Rob T

rthurlow

03-27-09, 02:00 AM

I just purchased a Tivo HD from Sears about a week ago. That $199.99 price was too good to pass up. I'm very happy with the tuners. They seem to be slightly more sensitive than my Philips DVDR3576H.

Good information - thanks!

kucharsk

03-27-09, 04:37 PM

Tivo has KRMT-DT correctly mapped to 41-1 but it is looking for it on RF 19 rather than RF 40. Unfortunately, even if it had the correct RF channel, it would not display due to KRMT's screwed up PSIP..

I have opened numerous bugs with TiVo over KRMT-DT to get them to note it's on RF 40, to no avail.

That having been said, once scanned it has no problem actually tuning KRMT-DT as long as you tune to ¨40-1.¨

roller11

03-28-09, 01:40 PM

Has anyone noticed the interlacing artifacts on some of the NCAA tourney basketball games on KCNC HD? Look at diagonal lines for aliasing. I'm seeing it OTA, cable, and Dishnetwork.
It seems to be on a game by game basis, some games are normal, some aren't.

roller11

03-28-09, 05:27 PM

Update:
To see this artifact, replay from your DVR /Tivo aturdays Cal state pamona game. Go to 15:14 left in the first half. Look at the 3 point line, and at exactly 15:14 shown on the game clock graphic, the artifact clears up, i.e. makes the artifact to no artifact transition. The 3 point line is a good place to look, but it is all over the screen, especially graphics and signs in the stands that have fine lines.

kenavs

03-28-09, 07:12 PM

...I just checked the FCC website. I don't recall KRMA ever transmitting with 315 kW of ERP. I thought they were at 115 kW ERP. The FCC website doesn't show either, only application/construction permit filings for 1 mW ERP.
The March 19 2009 update plan from KRMAOn May 19, 2009 KRMA will increase power of our digital signal from our site on Mt. Morrison from 315kW ERP to 1,000kW (1MW or 1 million watts) We will also begin broadcasting with a new antenna from the top of the tower on Mt. Morrison which, coupled with the increase in power should resolve most of the signal reception problems our viewers experience with in our coverage area.
also got me looking for any FCC filings and comments in the forum, which got me to your post.

I looked at all the all the FCC 340 APPLICATION FOR CONSTRUCTION PERMIT forms for KRMA-DT that I could find at the FCC website for this century.

BMPEDT 20030728AJU 340 E KRMA-TV 14040 DT GRANTED 07/30/2003
1. Channel Number: DTV 18 Analog TV, if any 6
2. Zone: II
3. Antenna Location Coordinates: (NAD 27)
Latitude: Degrees 39 Minutes 40 Seconds 25 North
Longitude: Degrees 105 Minutes 13 Seconds 1 West
4. Antenna Structure Registration Number: Not Applicable Notification filed with FAA
5. Antenna Location Site Elevation Above Mean Sea Level: 2335 meters
6. Overall Tower Height Above Ground Level: 39.6 meters
7. Height of Radiation Center Above Ground Level: 26 meters
8. Height of Radiation Center Above Average Terrain (HAAT): 340 meters
9. Maximum Effective Radiated Power (average power): 1000 kW
10. Antenna Specifications:a. Manufacturer DIE Model TUA-C2-12/24H-T
The above seems to be the initial filing when they decided to try to use a Mt Morrison site with a new Low Profile tower instead of their analog tower on Lookout. This was their attempt to escape sCARE which got them out of the frying pan and into the fire.

BMPEDT 20060526ADT 340 E KRMA-TV 14040 DT GRANTED 06/15/2006
1. Channel Number: DTV 18 Analog TV, if any 6
2. Zone: II
3. Antenna Location Coordinates: (NAD 27)
Latitude: Degrees 39 Minutes 44 Seconds 37 North
Longitude: Degrees 104 Minutes 59 Seconds 18 West
4. Antenna Structure Registration Number: 1063701
5. Antenna Location Site Elevation Above Mean Sea Level: 1594 meters
6. Overall Tower Height Above Ground Level: 250 meters
7. Height of Radiation Center Above Ground Level: 222 meters
8. Height of Radiation Center Above Average Terrain (HAAT): 178 meters
9. Maximum Effective Radiated Power (average power): 18 kW
10. Antenna Specifications:
a. Manufacturer RFT Model SFN2030-B-6
That seems to be the last Republic Plaza configurartion

BMPEDT 20061205AAG 340 E KRMA-TV 14040 DT GRANTED 02/05/2007
1. Channel Number: DTV 18 Analog TV, if any 6
2. Zone: II
3. Antenna Location Coordinates: (NAD 27)
Latitude: Degrees 39 Minutes 40 Seconds 17 North
Longitude: Degrees 105 Minutes 13 Seconds 6 West
4. Antenna Structure Registration Number: 1023484
5. Antenna Location Site Elevation Above Mean Sea Level: 2343 meters
6. Overall Tower Height Above Ground Level: 84 meters
7. Height of Radiation Center Above Ground Level: 12 meters
8. Height of Radiation Center Above Average Terrain (HAAT): 331 meters
9. Maximum Effective Radiated Power (average power): 115 kW
10. Antenna Specifications:
a. Manufacturer RFT Model SFN-2030-5645-16
The above looks to be the current "Ice Bridge" antenna. This does include the 115 KW ERP.

BPEDT 20080617ACF 340 E KRMA-TV 14040 DT GRANTED 07/25/2008
1. Channel Number: DTV 18 Analog TV, if any 6
2. Zone: II
3. Antenna Location Coordinates: (NAD 27)
Latitude: Degrees 39 Minutes 40 Seconds 25 North
Longitude: Degrees 105 Minutes 13 Seconds 1 West
4. Antenna Structure Registration Number: Not Applicable Notification filed with FAA
5. Antenna Location Site Elevation Above Mean Sea Level: 2335 meters
6. Overall Tower Height Above Ground Level: 40 meters
7. Height of Radiation Center Above Ground Level: 26 meters
8. Height of Radiation Center Above Average Terrain (HAAT): 344 meters
9. Maximum Effective Radiated Power (average power): 1000 kW
10. Antenna Specifications:
a. Manufacturer DIE Model TUA-C2-12/24H-T
PLEASE NOTE THAT THIS APPLICATION IS FOR A MINOR CHANGE TO LICENSED FACILITY. A LICENSE APPLICATION FOR KRMA-DT IS PENDING IN FILE NO. BLEDT-20070806AED, TO COVER THE PERMIT IN FILE NO. BMPEDT-20061205AAG.
The above seems to be a new attempt at a new tower on Mt Morrison. I believe it goes with the Jeffco authorization to build the tower on April 1, 2008. I have not read anything to indicate that tower construction ever got started. I believe this is the 'MAXIMIZATION' PERMIT referenced in the following application.

BMPEDT 20080825AAI 340 E KRMA-TV 14040 DT ACCEPTED FOR FILING 08/26/2008
1. Channel Number: DTV 18 Analog TV, if any 6
2. Zone: II
3. Antenna Location Coordinates: (NAD 27)
Latitude: Degrees 39 Minutes 40 Seconds 25 North
Longitude: Degrees 105 Minutes 13 Seconds 1 West
4. Antenna Structure Registration Number: Not Applicable Notification filed with FAA
5. Antenna Location Site Elevation Above Mean Sea Level: 2335 meters
6. Overall Tower Height Above Ground Level: 40 meters
7. Height of Radiation Center Above Ground Level: 26 meters
8. Height of Radiation Center Above Average Terrain (HAAT): 344 meters
9. Maximum Effective Radiated Power (average power): 1000 kW
10. Antenna Specifications:
a. Manufacturer DIE Model TUM30-C2-12/24U-R-T
THE KRMA-DT 'MAXIMIZATION' PERMIT WHICH IS BEING MODIFIED BY THIS APPLICATION WAS GRANTED IN JULY, 2008 TO ALLOW EXPANDED COVERAGE FOR KRMA-DT'S COMPLETED, POST-TRANSITION/'APPENDIX B' FACILITIES IN FILE NO. BMPEDT-20061205AAG (LICENSE APPLICATION PENDING IN BLED-20070806AED).
The above seems to be minor changes to the preceeding application.

I find it interesting that the last 2 applications both reference the "Ice Bridge" application, although they are both for the new tower location that was proposed in the first application.

The "Ice Bridge" application did authorize the 115 KW ERP, but, like you, I find nothing to reference 315 KW. I suspect it was a typo (315 instead of 115) in their announcement. All the 1000 KW applications are for a slightly different location and a different antenna. I would not think they could have used them for authorization to go to 315 KW from 115 KW on the Ice Bridge.

These applications seem to have confused the TVQ TV Database Query. The Ice Bridge application, which is the active one, is missing from the query results. They may also have confused TV fool. It only shows the CH 47 translator for KRMA-DT from my location for pre-transition. On the other hand, maybe TV fool detects shadowing at the Ice Bridge site, although I don't think that is it. Post transition, TV fool predicts a strong signal to my location.

I could find nothing to go with the March 19 announcement of a May 19, 2009 change. I am curious what antenna they are going to use. I keep wondering if they can use the old Channel 20 analog antenna.