I'm in pueblo West for three days visiting family and just realized that I put a CM4221 for them last summer. Down here is KKTV DTV channel 11-1-2-3 on RF 10, they live about 27 miles from Cheyenne Mountain. As I have stated before the 4228 and 4221 know matter if it is the HD or original one will pick up the high VHF channels. They are having know problems receiving all DTV channels even channel 11 on RF 10.

BTW, no one else noticed that KDVR went back to their old habits and rather than run their DTV crawl at the beginning of Monday's 24 waited until a tense plot moment to drop into SD?

They obviously screwed up as they let the crawl run into commercial time - a big no-no for stations who will likely have to give the advertiser a make-good…

BTW, no one else noticed that KDVR went back to their old habits and rather than run their DTV crawl at the beginning of Monday's 24 waited until a tense plot moment to drop into SD?

They obviously screwed up as they let the crawl run into commercial time - a big no-no for stations who will likely have to give the advertiser a make-good…

I noticed it and commented to my wife how they were so screwed-up that they actually committed the unforgivable sin of allowing a public service message compete with a paid commercial. However, I didn't bother to post that here as I think I've vented my frustration about those crawls enough in this forum.

God forbid there are commercials playing when the NWS issues an imminent tornado warning some day (had that kind of warning 5-minutes before a major tornado hit Tulsa, OK many long years ago).

Rick313 was right (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=16173128#post16173128). He's been told this before -- 11 days ago, in fact (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=16100598#post16100598).Feel better now? Anyway, adding another antenna isn't going to work because I don't have enough room to separate them as stated and I don't want to put up a bigger mast. However you missed the point of my recent question. Sorry to be such a burden to you guys, I'll not ask again, I'll figure it out.
(P.S. Btw, 11 days ago != every two weeks)

Must Rant on Channel 2,

Still no HD for 'Reaper' tonight, but now we don't even get the whole show, and what we do get is totally out of chronological order and constantly interrupted by commercials or just a black screen for minutes on end. Great work 'Deuce', now can we have our OLD KWGN back...you know, the one that actually was a television station that could...you know, make moving pictures (even HD ones!) fly through the air?

'The Deuce', living up to it's new name already!

RANT OFF

Sorry, just very frustrated in trying to watch a show I really (used to) enjoy:(

I watched Smallville tonight, which was my first time watching KWGN since the HD upgrade. It looks like things have improved since the first day.

The Good:

I caught the end of the newscast, since I typically start recording 3 minutes early. It looked fairly good in general. Since I didn't watch the whole thing I don't know if they are still overdoing advertising "The Deuce".

There were no technical problems during the program. They did cut one commercial early when returning to the program.

They ran the best transition crawl I've seen. It was an HD crawl, i.e. they stayed in HD to do it, it was fairly small, and they overlaid the program, rather than squashing it like KUSA does. I've attached a screenshot called "thegood.jpg" below.

The bad:

After doing such a good job with the crawl I was quite surprised to see them overlay almost 1/3 of the bottom part of the screen to advertise the start times of various programs during the week. Most of the time they did this for a fairly short time, but sometimes they left it up way too long. Almost half of this overlay was blank, so they could have easily made this overlay smaller and still achieved their goal. Hopefully they won't be doing this from now on. I've attached a screenshot "thebad.jpg" below.

One final note, I was initially surprised that they changed their format from 1080i to 720p (did you catch that Trip? :)), but then I realized that since they are sharing facilities with KDVR, which is 720p (which is a FOX decision, not a local decision), it makes sense for both stations to use the same format.

One final note, I was initially surprised that they changed their format from 1080i to 720p (did you catch that Trip? :))

Did now. :) A new capture for me perhaps? =)

- Trip

I noticed the same things as jsmar on KWGN tonight. I agree that the HD crawl overlay is much better than KUSA's squishing of the screen. After I watched the first minute or so of Smallville (I don't watch Smallville), I flipped to KDVR. They had the chef show on (can't remember the name) and they ran a DTV crawl. Of course, they switched to SD to do the crawl, but I noticed that the Fox 31 logo remained during the crawl and the logo was outside of the SD area of the screen, in the sidebar. I was wondering how they can keep their HD logo on screen while doing an SD crawl.

The Fox "splicer" allows KDVR to blend SD or HD content with an HD logo:

Fox Splicer information (http://www.satelliteanalysis.com/splicer.htm)
Fox Splicer manual (http://splicer.foxpico.com/Manuals/fox%20hd%20splicer%20manual%20v8.7.pdf)

So basically KDVR drops to SD as they only have an SD crawl generator but they can continue to "splice" in their HD logo.

The Fox "splicer" allows KDVR to blend SD or HD content with an HD logo:

Fox Splicer information (http://www.satelliteanalysis.com/splicer.htm)
Fox Splicer manual (http://splicer.foxpico.com/Manuals/fox%20hd%20splicer%20manual%20v8.7.pdf)

So basically KDVR drops to SD as they only have an SD crawl generator but they can continue to "splice" in their HD logo.

Hmm, interesting. I thought it would be impossible to overlay a logo without decoding the 720p stream, mixing the logo and the video and then reencoding. I'm not sure how they pull that off without doing that. My guess is that MPEG must support an overlay stream or transparent image that can be mixed in after video is decoded in our television/converter box.

Thus is the joy of the splicer.

Fox is supposed to be upgrading all the local stations' splicers with new ones that will support overlays on the HD before the fall season, but it hasn't started happening yet so it probably won't get done in time. Until that happens, no overlays on Fox HD for most stations.

(Apparently, some stations have bought equipment and decided to decode the Fox HD anyway, though I've been told this is unsupported and frowned upon by Fox, and that if the splicer stops working, rather than Fox paying to fix it, the local station then has to foot the bill.)

- Trip

Up here in the thawing north (Fort Collins), KRMA-DT's translator (RF 47) has always shown a lot of variation in signal level when they first turned it on, but in the last 24 hours it has dropped pretty much below the level of detection at my location. Another viewer in the south of town reports that he is seeing big changes in levels from RF 18, which he had been getting with a modest number of dropouts, and he is also seeing variation in RF 47.

Is anyone else seeing this in other locations?

Also strange: During the big snowstorm up here last week, channel 7 (RF 17) vanished, and I got the best reception ever from the KRMA translator. I can't think how those things might be related, unless RF 17 is somehow interfering with KRMA-DT's over-the-air RF 18 feed to the K47LY-D translator.


Jim McCauley

FYI. Just got notice of this sale via email from Antennas Direct. Might be useful for some struggling to aim an antenna to get anything DTV. But, for most of us who are just trying to maximize specific channels w/o losing too much of others, it wouldn't help much.

http://www.antennasdirect.com/sm100.html

Hello neighbors!

Just cut off the cord with Dish Network and am changing to OTA and Internet for family entertainment. So excited I just couldn't contain myself.

No questions yet... but I'm sure I'll have some soon :)

FYI, I am in Denver proper (Lowry) and at the recommendation of a fellow member, ordered the following;

Winegard HD 7694P High Definition VHF/UHF HDHD769 Series Antenna (HD7694P) | Qty: 1
Winegard HDP 269 SquareShooter Pre-Amplifier for SquareShooter SS-1000 (HDP-269) | Qty: 1

If I can get all the kinks out of the internet thang for hulu and the kids shows (Disney and Nickelodeon mostly) this is gonna be awesome!

Mike

Hello neighbors!

Just cut off the cord with Dish Network and am changing to OTA and Internet for family entertainment. So excited I just couldn't contain myself.

No questions yet... but I'm sure I'll have some soon :)

FYI, I am in Denver proper (Lowry) and at the recommendation of a fellow member, ordered the following;

Winegard HD 7694P High Definition VHF/UHF HDHD769 Series Antenna (HD7694P) | Qty: 1
Winegard HDP 269 SquareShooter Pre-Amplifier for SquareShooter SS-1000 (HDP-269) | Qty: 1

If I can get all the kinks out of the internet thang for hulu and the kids shows (Disney and Nickelodeon mostly) this is gonna be awesome!

Mike

Welcome to the AVS Forum and this local thread.

I don't think my wife would ever give up her movie channels, so I'll remain a Dish subscriber to the foreseeable future. Personally, most of my viewing is receivable via OTA DTV.

That's a pretty good antenna you ordered. If you are planning to mount it outside, you probably don't need the pre-amp. But, if you are putting it in the attic, the pre-amp might be necessary to maintain strong signals on all of the available DTV channels.

KMGH just added a spanish audio track, similar to what KCNC did on 3/24. KWGN also just fixed their TVCT table, which was claiming a second subchannel (2.2) even though there was no underlying program for it.

If you are planning to mount it outside, you probably don't need the pre-amp.

I had the same thought, then I wondered if he might be driving a long run of coax or maybe several sets coupled with splitters. If it is a matter of just needing more signal, would it not be better to go with the HD7696P or HD7698P (if there are not other constraints, such as fitting in the attic or aesthetics). With amplification, the rule of "garbage in, garbage out" is followed, plus even the best of them add some noise, which is the enemy of good reception.

Phil

KMGH just added a spanish audio track, similar to what KCNC did on 3/24. KWGN also just fixed their TVCT table, which was claiming a second subchannel (2.2) even though there was no underlying program for it.
I wonder if this is related to my experience. I was watching the news on 7-1 at about 11:50AM (during a weather report) when my Vizio VX32L switched to channel 2. I could not get back to 7-1. When I looked at the skip table, 7-1 and 7-27 were completely missing. My guess is they made a PSIP change that my tuner could not handle.

A few minutes later I did a scan and recovered all the channels I had prior to the incident.

Up here in the thawing north (Fort Collins), KRMA-DT's translator (RF 47) has always shown a lot of variation in signal level when they first turned it on, but in the last 24 hours it has dropped pretty much below the level of detection at my location. Another viewer in the south of town reports that he is seeing big changes in levels from RF 18, which he had been getting with a modest number of dropouts, and he is also seeing variation in RF 47.

Is anyone else seeing this in other locations?

Jim McCauley

Something is seriously wrong with the RF47 translator. I've been doing some monitoring on RF47 over the last week, ever since I discovered that the signal was not quite as good as I thought initially, i.e. it has always had a good average signal level, but it goes back and forth from a reasonably good minimum signal quality level to a signal quality level of 0 (i.e. even though the average was good, there were dropouts). What I've been trying to figure out is whether or not this fluctuation was the fault of the translator or if I am having multipath or preamp overload problems.

Anyway, that is how things were until yesterday evening. Please note that the following readings will be in <average S/N quality>/<Minimum S/N quality>/<Maximum S/N quality> format, where the readings are over a 15 minute period. At around 2 pm RF47 went from 85/70/92 to 86/0/98. That pattern is what I have seen before, i.e. they keep the same average level, but the minimum drops to zero, and sometimes the max goes up a little.

Then at between around 5:40 and 6:10 pm yesterday they went from 87/0/98 to 52/0/98 to 22/0/87. With an average level of 22 the signal is pretty much unusable. They are currently (12:55 pm on 4/3) at 8/0/86.

I have not noticed any significant changes on RF18 during this time.

Thanks for the welcome guys. I sold my Mrs on the fact that any movie she was interested in was available through other means (AppleTV or other).

As far as the antenna and amp go, I got the amp "just in case". I haven't measured the cable distance yet, but if I had to guess it's about 30 ft from the dish to my splitter. Antenna is outside facing west.

I have been using a temporary radio shack antenna, and it's been a little sketchy as far as reception is concerned, and you can tell they are still tweaking things :)

Oh, and is it just me, or does OTA HD look a LOT better than the dish network HD?

Posted by jsmar:
KMGH just added a spanish audio track, similar to what KCNC did on 3/24.
Now if the Spanish language stations would add an English audio track, we'd be all set!

Posted by charlatan:
Oh, and is it just me, or does OTA HD look a LOT better than the dish network HD?
Welcome to the thread! I think OTA and Dish Network look about the same. Unless you look in your wallet.

Oh, and is it just me, or does OTA HD look a LOT better than the dish network HD?

I have found that OTA using the Dish 622 is not as good as using the Sony tuner. Their is a difference.

... does OTA HD look a LOT better than the dish network HD?

Yup. It's not just you, and it's not just E*. Every pay service employs some level of signal compression so as to cram as many channels as possible into the available pipeline. To be fair, the broadcasters compress signals as well, but to a very minor extent, relatively speaking. The more bit-starved the stream becomes, the lousier it looks. It's the dirty little secret the pay services don't want you to know about. Welcome to the joys of OTA HD!

I emailed KUSA and finally got a response with regards to their DTV testing on RF9. The testing they did in March was at almost full power (39KW). I still was not able to get a reliable signal from them. So, it looks like I am going to have to make some changes to my setup. What mystifies me is that I have been able to get a reasonably good signal from KMGH when they did testing at the same time on RF7. According to some of the response curves for the CM4228, the CM4228 should have a gain that is about 4-5 db higher for RF9 than RF7. Also, KMGH has been testing at a lower power level than KUSA, and they are sharing the same antenna.

The only theory I have is that if you look at the off axis response, the CM4228 does better for RF7 starting at about 40 degrees off axis. So perhaps in this case multipath is actually helping with RF7, rather than hurting.

So, it looks like I will be losing KUSA starting on April 16th unless I make a significant change in my antenna setup. My original intention was to get a Wade/Delhi single channel antenna for VHF channel 8, but I can't find anyone who sells that antenna, and there are rumors that Delhi is dropping out of the consumer antenna business. I may decide to get the Antennacraft Y5-7-13 instead.

The other issue I have is that I want to keep the preamp outside directly connected to the CM4228, but I can't figure out a way of getting the power to it if I use a VHF/UHF combiner to combine the signal from a VHF hi antenna (all VHF/UHF combiners pass power to the VHF side). Does anyone know whether or not a VHF-Lo/VHF-High signal splitter/combiner also passes UHF on the VHF-High side? I've got a crazy idea of combining a splitter, UVSJ and HLSJ to get power to the antenna, but the idea depends on the HLSJ passing UHF on the high side. My other options are to just use a standard signal combiner and hope there isn't too much interference between the two antenna's, or I need to get power into my garage attic so that I can install the preamp power supply after the UVSJ.

Thus is the joy of the splicer.

Fox is supposed to be upgrading all the local stations' splicers with new ones that will support overlays on the HD before the fall season, but it hasn't started happening yet so it probably won't get done in time. Until that happens, no overlays on Fox HD for most stations.

(Apparently, some stations have bought equipment and decided to decode the Fox HD anyway, though I've been told this is unsupported and frowned upon by Fox, and that if the splicer stops working, rather than Fox paying to fix it, the local station then has to foot the bill.)

- Trip

I'm confused by this. According to the documentation the current splicer somehow supports overlaying a logo on the HD signal. I can't remember if I've ever seen KDVR overlay a logo on network programming until recently. So, is the documentation wrong, or is the current splicer not able to do this? I am going to have to go read the mpeg standard again to see how this could even be possible (without decoding/re-encoding).

Now if the Spanish language stations would add an English audio track, we'd be all set!.
I recall reading somewhere that many of the Spanish channels are able to get their broadcasting rights for movies at a reduced rate by NOT providing an English audio track, thus not competing with other outlets.

The Spanish channels are still good for soccer coverage, and the only word you really need to listen for is GOL.

I'm confused by this. According to the documentation the current splicer somehow supports overlaying a logo on the HD signal. I can't remember if I've ever seen KDVR overlay a logo on network programming until recently. So, is the documentation wrong, or is the current splicer not able to do this? I am going to have to go read the mpeg standard again to see how this could even be possible (without decoding/re-encoding).

They can overlay a logo and an ID. When I said "overlays" I should have said "crawls."

Kids, this is why you should always be awake for more than 10 minutes before posting a message on AVS Forum! :D

- Trip

Something is seriously wrong with the RF47 translator. I've been doing some monitoring on RF47 over the last week, ever since I discovered that the signal was not quite as good as I thought initially, i.e. it has always had a good average signal level, but it goes back and forth from a reasonably good minimum signal quality level to a signal quality level of 0 (i.e. even though the average was good, there were dropouts). What I've been trying to figure out is whether or not this fluctuation was the fault of the translator or if I am having multipath or preamp overload problems.


jsmar, I see this, too. My HR0-250 is always unhappy with the off-axis signal from my CM-4228 pointed at Lookout. RF 11, coming from the same place, is rock-solid. Now, my Dish 942 receiver connected to my attic antenna is happier with the signal.

Of course, today, it's pretty much impossible to lock on RF 47 at all, as you say.

... I may decide to get the Antennacraft Y5-7-13 instead.

... Does anyone know whether or not a VHF-Lo/VHF-High signal splitter/combiner also passes UHF on the VHF-High side?

At your distance, you might be better off going for a W-G YA-1713 (particularly if you were going to spend the serious bucks needed to get a W-D single-channel Yagi). For $20 more than the cost of a Y5, it's got twice the gain and it's built to stand up to those occasional wind events. Don't get me wrong: I like the Y5 -- in fact, I've got one in the attic -- but then, I'm only 23 miles from LOM.

According to everything I've seen, the HLSJ combiner will pass UHF signals on the high side; lots of people use them as inexpensive FM traps where no station is assigned to channels 2-6. However, both the HLSJ and UVSJ pass power only on their low sides.

At your distance, you might be better off going for a W-G YA-1713 (particularly if you were going to spend the serious bucks needed to get a W-D single-channel Yagi). For $20 more than the cost of a Y5, it's got twice the gain and it's built to stand up to those occasional wind events. Don't get me wrong: I like the Y5 -- in fact, I've got one in the attic -- but then, I'm only 23 miles from LOM.

I forgot to mention I am looking for a fairly compact antenna, that is why I want only a 5 element rather than 10 element antenna. The W-D antenna I want to get is the 5Y8S which is only 34" long (compared to the 10Y8S which is 94" long and only gains another 2.5 db). The YA-1713 is 100" long vs. the Y5-7-13 which is 60" long. The Y5-7-13 has an average gain of 6.9 db across the whole VHF-HI spectrum. The Wade-Delhi 5Y8S has a 7.5 db gain at channel 8 and it looks like it is down about 1.5 db at channels 7 and channel 9.

I guess I believe I won't really need a hefty antenna to pull in this signal if I mount it outside, considering that I am able to get RF7 with the CM4228. My only explanation of the issue with RF9 is due to the weird response of the CM4228 in the hi VHF range and/or it not being as directional at VHF-Hi frequencies, leading to multipath problems. But I could be wrong about that.

Wind is also a serious issue for me. I'm up next to the foothills and we get some huge wind gusts (70-80 mph) fairly often during the winter. I'm planning on mounting this thing on my chimney, and I'd rather not damage it (I'm not planning on going very much above the top of the chimney).


According to everything I've seen, the HLSJ combiner will pass UHF signals on the high side; lots of people use them as inexpensive FM traps where no station is assigned to channels 2-6. However, both the HLSJ and UVSJ pass power only on their low sides.

Right. I knew that the HLSJ passed power on the low side only. My plan is to split the signal from the CM4228 with a splitter that passes power to one side. The non powered side would be connected to the UHF side of the UVSJ and then the new VHF antenna (whichever I choose) would be connected to the VHF side. The output of that would be connected to the "High VHF/UHF" side of the HLSJ whereas the powered side of the splitter from the CM4228 would be connected to the "VHF LO" side. This would allow the power to flow to the preamp and still allow the filtered combination of the two antenna's.

I turned on my Panasonic DVR to find a channel listing lineup in my TV Guide on Screen, first time in weeks. When I check the host channel is 44 - which is a translator for KRMA ch.6. So PBS appears to broadcasting the analog TVGOS again. Will update if the guide populates or if all I ever get is the channel listing. But that's better than nothing.


Update: The guide is populating, so for the moment Macrovision has turned back on the analog OTA feed for TVGOS via PBS. Wonder if they'll get the SCTE 127 working with the DTVPal converter box by the June 12 transition date.

I emailed KUSA and finally got a response with regards to their DTV testing on RF9. The testing they did in March was at almost full power (39KW). I still was not able to get a reliable signal from them. So, it looks like I am going to have to make some changes to my setup. What mystifies me is that I have been able to get a reasonably good signal from KMGH when they did testing at the same time on RF7. According to some of the response curves for the CM4228, the CM4228 should have a gain that is about 4-5 db higher for RF9 than RF7. Also, KMGH has been testing at a lower power level than KUSA, and they are sharing the same antenna.

The only theory I have is that if you look at the off axis response, the CM4228 does better for RF7 starting at about 40 degrees off axis. So perhaps in this case multipath is actually helping with RF7, rather than hurting.

So, it looks like I will be losing KUSA starting on April 16th unless I make a significant change in my antenna setup. My original intention was to get a Wade/Delhi single channel antenna for VHF channel 8, but I can't find anyone who sells that antenna, and there are rumors that Delhi is dropping out of the consumer antenna business. I may decide to get the Antennacraft Y5-7-13 instead.

The other issue I have is that I want to keep the preamp outside directly connected to the CM4228, but I can't figure out a way of getting the power to it if I use a VHF/UHF combiner to combine the signal from a VHF hi antenna (all VHF/UHF combiners pass power to the VHF side). Does anyone know whether or not a VHF-Lo/VHF-High signal splitter/combiner also passes UHF on the VHF-High side? I've got a crazy idea of combining a splitter, UVSJ and HLSJ to get power to the antenna, but the idea depends on the HLSJ passing UHF on the high side. My other options are to just use a standard signal combiner and hope there isn't too much interference between the two antenna's, or I need to get power into my garage attic so that I can install the preamp power supply after the UVSJ.

Put a DC Block on the VHF side upstream of the combiner.

How is your reception of analog Channel 9 (KUSA)? I've been skeptical of the planned DTV power levels for Channels 7 and 9 for some time as those regular readers of this thread are aware. However, a CM4228 is a long range UHF antenna with some VHF reception capability. You may just be pushing its VHF reception envelope too much with your distance from the LCG tower. I suspect an outdoor mounted CM4228 in the Denver metro area wouldn't have a problem with 7 or 9.

I suspect an outdoor mounted CM4228 in the Denver metro area wouldn't have a problem with 7 or 9.I agree with your statement based on experience to date. I have a CM4228 mounted about 15' AGL close to Quincy and Chambers (about 100' lower elevation to the SE of that intersection but with a relatively clear LOS to LM) and I receive both 7 and 9 analog with very good picture quality.

Put a DC Block on the VHF side upstream of the combiner.

Could you expound on that? I'm not sure if you telling me about a problem with my proposed solution or that you are proposing a different solution.

How is your reception of analog Channel 9 (KUSA)? I've been skeptical of the planned DTV power levels for Channels 7 and 9 for some time as those regular readers of this thread are aware. However, a CM4228 is a long range UHF antenna with some VHF reception capability. You may just be pushing its VHF reception envelope too much with your distance from the LCG tower. I suspect an outdoor mounted CM4228 in the Denver metro area wouldn't have a problem with 7 or 9.
I have checked this before, but I checked it again and made some screen captures (see below). I get a good picture for KMGH analog. The picture for KUSA analog is not that great. It has perhaps a little snow, but it mostly has ghosting and herringbone patterns which I believe indicate multipath problems. I hadn't remembered KUSA analog being that much worse than KMGH, but this correlates with what I am experiencing for DTV when it was tested on RF7 and RF9.

This is interesting, because most reports have said that the CM4228 is better on RF9 than RF7 (of all the VHF high frequencies the CM4228 is best on RF10).

Could you expound on that? I'm not sure if you telling me about a problem with my proposed solution or that you are proposing a different solution.

I've re-read your posts a couple of times and I have to admit I'm still not sure what you are trying to accomplish when add a high-VHF antenna in combination with your CM4228, at least as far as your pre-amp is concerned. Do you want to use that one pre-amp for both the CM4228 and the high-VHF antenna or do you not want to use the pre-amp on the high-VHF? It sounded like you didn't want to pass power on the VHF side, so I suggested a DC Block as a way to block power flow to any given branch of your system fed by the pre-amp power supply.

However, if your concern not being able to get power through the UHF side, I know that Rat Shack used to sell (I own one) a standard splitter/combiner that only passed power on the UHF side. If you want power on both sides, then a Rat Shack hybrid splitter/combiner passes power on both sides since they aren't UHF or VHF limited.

Anyway, the high-VHF antenna that you are looking at has little chance of also picking up UHF signals, so it's output can be combined with the UHF output of the CM4228 without attempting to filter out stray UHF signals. OTOH, you would want to filter out any VHF signals from the CM4228's output before combining it with the high-VHF antenna's output, but that should be done upstream of the pre-amp, so I don't see the power pass concern unless you are planning to only use your existing pre-amp for the CM4228's signal. As I noted, I can't really figure out what you are trying to do.

I have checked this before, but I checked it again and made some screen captures (see below). I get a good picture for KMGH analog. The picture for KUSA analog is not that great. It has perhaps a little snow, but it mostly has ghosting and herringbone patterns which I believe indicate multipath problems. I hadn't remembered KUSA analog being that much worse than KMGH, but this correlates with what I am experiencing for DTV when it was tested on RF7 and RF9.

This is interesting, because most reports have said that the CM4228 is better on RF9 than RF7 (of all the VHF high frequencies the CM4228 is best on RF10).

Your KUSA analog picture definitely has snow, trailing ghosts, and a herringbone pattern. IMHO, the snow clearly indicates inadequate gain for the weak signal you are receiving, meaning you need a better VHF antenna or stronger pre-amp or both. Combined with the ghosts I'd suspect the KUSA analog signal isn't getting to you true LOS as apparently the KMGH analog signal does or something else is interfering on that frequency. Which brings me to the herringbone. CM's manual says herringbone can be indicative of adjacent channel interference: "Adjacent channel interference may also appear as a “herringbone pattern” on the screen. This is caused by the sound carrier of one channel “beating” against the picture carrier of the other. This produces a signal whose frequency is the difference between the two carrier frequencies. The different frequency is passed by the TV receiver and appears as a herringbone pattern on the screen." Anything around Fort Collins broadcasting on Channels 8 or 10?

I've re-read your posts a couple of times and I have to admit I'm still not sure what you are trying to accomplish when add a high-VHF antenna in combination with your CM4228, at least as far as your pre-amp is concerned. Do you want to use that one pre-amp for both the CM4228 and the high-VHF antenna or do you not want to use the pre-amp on the high-VHF? It sounded like you didn't want to pass power on the VHF side, so I suggested a DC Block as a way to block power flow to any given branch of your system fed by the pre-amp power supply.


I have a mast mounted preamp (a Winegard AP8283) directly behind the center of my CM 4228. The preamp has a 300 ohm input and I have a very short piece of quality 300 ohm wire between the antenna and the preamp. I have had incredible success with this setup, so I really don't want to mess with it in order to get KUSA.

So, what I want to do is combine the output from the preamp connected to the 4228 with the unamplified output (at least for my first try) of a VHF-Hi antenna. I also want to filter out the VHF from the 4228. My problem is trying to figure out how to do this filtering and also provide power to the preamp.

If that solution doesn't work I may add another preamp to the VHF side, although at that point I will probably try replacing the current preamp with a 300-75 ohm balun and try using one preamp on the combined output.

Anyway, here is what I am planning to do. I think it will work, but I would appreciate any input. I plan to use three components: 1) a two way splitter that passes power to one side (probably has a DC block on the other), 2) a Pico-Macom SUB/CATV signal combiner, and 3) a Pico-Macom UHF/VHF signal combiner.

The two combiners have low signal loss, the splitter has the typical signal loss for a 2 way splitter, but it will be after the preamp. Both of the signal combiners pass power to the low frequency side. The purpose of the SUB/CATV signal combiner is to get power to the preamp without reintroducing the VHF frequencies from the CM4228 that were filtered out by the UHF/VHF signal combiner.

Instead of trying to describe the hookup, I've attached a diagram below.

Your KUSA analog picture definitely has snow, trailing ghosts, and a herringbone pattern. IMHO, the snow clearly indicates inadequate gain for the weak signal you are receiving, meaning you need a better VHF antenna or stronger pre-amp or both. Combined with the ghosts I'd suspect the KUSA analog signal isn't getting to you true LOS as apparently the KMGH analog signal does or something else is interfering on that frequency. Which brings me to the herringbone. CM's manual says herringbone can be indicative of adjacent channel interference: "Adjacent channel interference may also appear as a “herringbone pattern” on the screen. This is caused by the sound carrier of one channel “beating” against the picture carrier of the other. This produces a signal whose frequency is the difference between the two carrier frequencies. The different frequency is passed by the TV receiver and appears as a herringbone pattern on the screen." Anything around Fort Collins broadcasting on Channels 8 or 10?

As far as I can tell from the FCC database and TV Fool, KMGH and KUSA are broadcasting using the same ERP from two antennas that are very close in location and height, i.e. not enough to make a difference in LOS as far as I can tell. When they go digital they will be using the exact same shared antenna, with KUSA having a little more power until KMGH gets their second maximization application approved.

So, my problem is due to interference and/or the wacky response curve of the CM4228 in the high VHF range. As far as adjacent channels go, the closest signal on channel 8 is in Laramie,WY (behind my antenna, with lots of mountains blocking LOS), and the closest signal on channel 10 is in Colorado Springs. Both of those signals are digital, so they don't have a sound carrier. I have no idea what adjacent channel digital interference looks like on a NTSC analog signal.

Even though channel 10 is in Colorado Springs I have been able to get it sometimes, so it is possible that it is interfering with channel 9. Channel 10 is also where the CM4228 is the most sensitive in the high VHF range.

So, I'm open to suggestions, but right now I am currently planning on doing something like what I have described above. I haven't decided what antenna I am going to try, since I can't buy my first or second choice (a Wade-Delhi antenna which has been discontinued, and a Winegard YA-6713 hi VHF antenna which has been discontinued). My other constraint is I am trying to avoid mounting a huge antenna on the roof. I know the FCC trumps the homeowners, but I am trying to be a good neighbor. The CM4228 is mounted on the front of my chimney, rather than it sticking up above it. I can't do that with a Yagi. I'm even considering building a channel specific dipole antenna.

I may try dragging my old Radio Shack behemoth out of the attic (I have a metal roof now, which rules out an indoor installation) and playing with it, just to see what is possible.

As far as I can tell from the FCC database and TV Fool, KMGH and KUSA are broadcasting using the same ERP from two antennas that are very close in location and height, i.e. not enough to make a difference in LOS as far as I can tell. When they go digital they will be using the exact same shared antenna, with KUSA having a little more power until KMGH gets their second maximization application approved.

So, my problem is due to interference and/or the wacky response curve of the CM4228 in the high VHF range. As far as adjacent channels go, the closest signal on channel 8 is in Laramie,WY (behind my antenna, with lots of mountains blocking LOS), and the closest signal on channel 10 is in Colorado Springs. Both of those signals are digital, so they don't have a sound carrier. I have no idea what adjacent channel digital interference looks like on a NTSC analog signal.

Even though channel 10 is in Colorado Springs I have been able to get it sometimes, so it is possible that it is interfering with channel 9. Channel 10 is also where the CM4228 is the most sensitive in the high VHF range.

So, I'm open to suggestions, but right now I am currently planning on doing something like what I have described above. I haven't decided what antenna I am going to try, since I can't buy my first or second choice (a Wade-Delhi antenna which has been discontinued, and a Winegard YA-6713 hi VHF antenna which has been discontinued). My other constraint is I am trying to avoid mounting a huge antenna on the roof. I know the FCC trumps the homeowners, but I am trying to be a good neighbor. The CM4228 is mounted on the front of my chimney, rather than it sticking up above it. I can't do that with a Yagi. I'm even considering building a channel specific dipole antenna.

I may try dragging my old Radio Shack behemoth out of the attic (I have a metal roof now, which rules out an indoor installation) and playing with it, just to see what is possible.

I'll comment on your hookup issue later after I have time to digest the information you have provided.

Regarding the poor reception of KUSA-DT on your CM4228, assuming that your problem has anything to do with adjacent channel interference, your options are pretty limited. The CM antenna manual says: "Solution: Traps and filters are available that will minimize this type of interference. Using a highly directive antenna and a rotor will also help. A combination of these methods may be necessary in extreme situations."

Since you are already using a highly directive antenna (the CM4228), probably a slight aiming adjustment is all that is available here (I assume you don't use a rotor and don't want to). Given your fringe area signal for KUSA-DT in the first place, traps and filters probably aren't practical as most within a reasonable price range have a lot of trapping affect on adjacent channels.

I've used the CM JoinTennas in the past with poor results. While a JoinTenna set to Channel 10 will provide over 20 dB attenuation on Channel 10, it will also provide almost 10 dB attenuation on Channels 9 and 11.

OTOH, you could have that high-VHF antenna's signal run through a Channel 9 JoinTenna to isolate KUSA-DT (the CM 4228 would then still be needed for KMGH-DT), then run the Channel 9 JoinTenna's output to a VHF pre-amp. While I think that solution will give you a good KUSA-DT signal, there are issues with using JoinTenna's outdoors.

Personally, I'd add an AntennaCraft Y5-7-13 to your roof (it's a relatively small antenna, no where near as obtrusive as the CM4228) and run its signal into a VHF pre-amp to get KMGH-DT and KUSA-DT. With good aiming, I think you will minimize or eliminate the KUSA-DT problems you are seeing with the CM4228. OTOH, OTA DTV is really a trial and error process in difficult situations (distance in your case) so as always, YMMV.

Sorry I don't have any more helpful information for you on this problem.

Hey all, couple of questions. I haven't lurked in this thread for a long time.

I am a 4 yr OTA guy now (on your recommendations) and have been happy as can be. I have an old LG OTA receiver (with component and DVI out 1080i and 720p), and a square shooter in the attic. I just bought a new PJ last week and the BBall game last night was the first HDTV I've watched on it (Optoma HD8200 dlp)

First question - was the broadcast quality of the Finals game last night good? I couldn't find my DVI to HDMI converter dongle in time so I just hooked up the PJ with the component cables. The slow moving shots were fantastic, but the fast moving "full court" views had a bit more noise than my old PJ (panny ae700u LCD). I would have guessed the new one would be better than the old one, but I want to rule out that maybe the broadcast wasn't up to par.

Are there any newer OTA receivers that I should consider upgrading to? I did a quick google search the other day and didn't find much out there. Is my old LG still capable? I don't even know if OTA will be 1080p or if HDMI output will be necessary for a receiver? Sorry if these questions have been asked before.

Thanks,
Scott

First question - was the broadcast quality of the Finals game last night good? I couldn't find my DVI to HDMI converter dongle in time so I just hooked up the PJ with the component cables. The slow moving shots were fantastic, but the fast moving "full court" views had a bit more noise than my old PJ (panny ae700u LCD). I would have guessed the new one would be better than the old one, but I want to rule out that maybe the broadcast wasn't up to par.

CBS's sports broadcasts are notorious for this. Fast-moving action always pixellates. As the old announcement said, "Don't adjust your set." :)

Are there any newer OTA receivers that I should consider upgrading to? I did a quick google search the other day and didn't find much out there. Is my old LG still capable? I don't even know if OTA will be 1080p or if HDMI output will be necessary for a receiver? Sorry if these questions have been asked before.

Unless you're looking for something with DVR capability or are having issues with multipath, I'd stick with what you have for now. The older LG receivers are great (I own a LST-4200a). For OTA, all HDMI really buys you is cable consolidation (by combining audio and video into a single connection)...and that assumes that your current audio receiver can handle it.

CBS's sports broadcasts are notorious for this. Fast-moving action always pixellates. As the old announcement said, "Don't adjust your set." :)

Thanks! I was a bit worried.



Unless you're looking for something with DVR capability or are having issues with multipath, I'd stick with what you have for now. The older LG receivers are great (I own a LST-4200a). For OTA, all HDMI really buys you is cable consolidation (by combining audio and video into a single connection)...and that assumes that your current audio receiver can handle it.

That is the same one I have - I couldn't remember the model number off the top of my head.

Thanks again.

CBS's sports broadcasts are notorious for this. Fast-moving action always pixellates. As the old announcement said, "Don't adjust your set." :)


I don't think that CBS is the primary cause here. Even if the broadcast station is not reducing bandwidth by adding additional subchannels, I don't think that the ATSC OTA standard bandwidth is high enough to support high quality fast moving action in the 1080i format, especially when using a realtime encoder (and here is where CBS can have some influence, i.e. in the quality of the encoders).

In my opinion 1080i is superior to 720p for a lot of content, but 720p is the format of choice for fast moving action, given the bandwidth constraints. This is one of the reasons that ESPN chose to go to 720p rather than 1080i.

Note also that I am assuming MPEG2 encoding. There are extended ATSC standards that allow for MPEG4 encoding for OTA broadcast. That can change the equation significantly. In my opinion 1080p is unrealistic with MPEG2 encoding (with the possible exception of very static content, i.e. perhaps a talk show), but becomes more realistic if MPEG4 encoding is used.

^ Agreed, and I was referring to CBS's use of 1080i. It just doesn't cut-it for football, basketball, etc...same gripe applies to NBC's 1080i presentation of the Olympics.

That being said, CBS's presentation of "slightly-slower events" *cough* The Masters *cough* typically look gorgeous. ;)

As I was watching the game last night, I had a thought that there'd be a post or two today regarding the PQ because I did notice very minor glitches. They were more than acceptable to me since analog broadcasts also have their drawbacks, such as momentary bluriness during a fast zoom. But, that 1080i sure looked a lot better than analog.

The other thought I had while watching the game was what it may have looked like on KUSA with its 2 SD sub-channels. If you've watched any of the Sunday hockey on NBC and lose sight of the puck, you probably know what I mean.

I sent an email to KDVR but haven't received a response; has anyone else heard any rumors as to when KDVR's news may finally go HD?

I got an email from them March 2 indicating it would be "by the end of the month"; they didn't quite make it. ;)

I guess they didn't say which month.:D

Silly question I know but why does the network only use one format? All the receivers can shift on the fly why not the front end......probably money....but considering how much money is at stake with sports you think they would make some changes.

I don't think that the ATSC OTA standard bandwidth is high enough to support high quality fast moving action in the 1080i format, especially when using a realtime encoder (and here is where CBS can have some influence, i.e. in the quality of the encoders).

I've been saying the same thing for ages and ages. The 6MHz channel width is not enough. Even if the channel width could be 12MHz, you can bet your bottom $$$ that ******* management will cram the mux with as many possible streams as possible, getting us right to where we are now.

Note also that I am assuming MPEG2 encoding. There are extended ATSC standards that allow for MPEG4 encoding for OTA broadcast.

Quote documents on that. While nothing stops a subchannel from being MPEG-4, the main channel MUST be MPEG-2 in order for existing devices to continue to provide a picture. IMHO, in order to have enough bits for even MPEG-4, you are going to have to drop the main channel down to 5Mbps SD, with the remaining bits for MPEG-4 HD. The going thought is the 20Mbps MPEG-2 can be done on 10 Mbps MPEG-4. So, in order to get excellent qualty video, with no macroblocking, would mean no MPEG-2 at all and all of the bits given over to MPEG-4 HD, no SD streams allowed. Never gonna happen.

Silly question I know but why does the network only use one format? All the receivers can shift on the fly why not the front end......probably money....but considering how much money is at stake with sports you think they would make some changes.

While the networks can probably shift on the fly, maybe, the stations won't be able to. A station's infrastructure is set up for either 720p or 1080i.

It would be a royal pain-in-the-ass to be able to do one or the other, at the whim of the network. You going to pay for the expensive gear to be able to do that?

I wouldn't be surprised if the network couldn't do it either.

Never gonna happen.

While the networks can probably shift on the fly, maybe, the stations won't be able to. A station's infrastructure is set up for either 720p or 1080i.

It would be a royal pain-in-the-ass to be able to do one or the other, at the whim of the network. You going to pay for the expensive gear to be able to do that?

I wouldn't be surprised if the network couldn't do it either.

Never gonna happen.

You're correct about a station's control room being set up to deliver only 720p or 1080i.

But stations can switch between 480i and 1080i; KRMA-DT used to do it twice a day when changing in and out of PBS HD mode in the "good old days" before V-Me and Create (and the reading service.)

(Insert yet another comment here about how the best HD pictures to be seen via ATSC are, sadly, in the past for most stations thanks to useless subchannels…)

It's pretty easy to switch between 720p and 1080i really. Most format translators can switch with a GPI contact supplied by any automation system. The Leitch X75 can do it on the fly with only about 500 ms delay. The programming is usually fixed in its format before it arrives at the stations and it is easier to just stick with that format. Sporting events are the only time I've ever had to set up to switch.

But stations can switch between 480i and 1080i; KRMA-DT used to do it twice a day when changing in and out of PBS HD mode in the "good old days" before V-Me and Create (and the reading service.)

Going between 480i and 720p/1080i is comparing apples to oranges. Why? because it was two separate paths in the house. So, all they had to do was switch to the NTSC input and encode at 480i, or switch to the HD-SDI input and encode 720p/1080i.

But, within a single HD-SDI bus, you do not normally route both 720p and/or 1080i.

It's pretty easy to switch between 720p and 1080i really. Most format translators can switch with a GPI contact supplied by any automation system. The Leitch X75 can do it on the fly with only about 500 ms delay. The programming is usually fixed in its format before it arrives at the stations and it is easier to just stick with that format. Sporting events are the only time I've ever had to set up to switch.

I'm not saying that it can't be done, just expensive to do so. Every piece of gear in the plant has to be able to do that. If the network decides to feed a sporting event at 720p, the station has to switch all of their gear to handle that feed and do all of their local breaks at 720p. The possibility of a screwup just isn't worth it.

I can just hear the viewers complaining about the 1/2 second delay and possible glitching in the owner's gear as it relocks to the changed format.

Just isn'tworth it. Pick one format and stick with it. I prefer that stations DO NOT change formats on the fly.

Quote documents on that. While nothing stops a subchannel from being MPEG-4, the main channel MUST be MPEG-2 in order for existing devices to continue to provide a picture. IMHO, in order to have enough bits for even MPEG-4, you are going to have to drop the main channel down to 5Mbps SD, with the remaining bits for MPEG-4 HD. The going thought is the 20Mbps MPEG-2 can be done on 10 Mbps MPEG-4. So, in order to get excellent qualty video, with no macroblocking, would mean no MPEG-2 at all and all of the bits given over to MPEG-4 HD, no SD streams allowed. Never gonna happen.

Never is a long time. You're right that it won't be happening any time soon. ATSC standard A/72 parts 1 and 2 were just approved last July. I don't think there is any commercially available hardware yet that implements the standard. And yes, stations will have to maintain compatibility for a while during any transition to MPEG4. There is a chicken and egg problem also, in that mpeg4 capability will certainly not be free, and manufacturers are going to be reluctant to add a feature that there won't be any immediate use for, and stations aren't going to use the format if there aren't enough viewers who are capable of receiving it.

But, eventually the feature will be close enough to free that it will be included in standard TV tuners. And then sometime (multiple years) after that, once there is enough penetration, stations will consider transitioning to mpeg4.

ATSC standard A/72 parts 1 and 2 were just approved last July.

But, eventually the feature will be close enough to free that it will be included in standard TV tuners. And then sometime (multiple years) after that, once there is enough penetration, stations will consider transitioning to mpeg4.

Thanks, I'll go fetch those documents.

I'll be dead and turned into dust before it ever happens. :D

Are we really ready for the transition?

KUSA-DT has been off the air for several hours now, and there is a crawl on VHF 9 letting viewers know their HD transmitter is down and they're working to fix it.

Given this would put them off the air completely as of one week from today, and there's not even a mention of it at this time on their web site…

I doubt that the digital equipment is any more likely to have a failure than the analog equipment is.

I have to imagine that KUSA has a backup channel 9 transmitter but not a backup channel 16 transmitter. I doubt a problem like this would put them off the air in the future, depending on exactly what the problem is.

- Trip

Did anyone have trouble with their OTA signal for Lost last night on KMGH-DT? I wasn't home, but my husband said he couldn't get any signal at all. He tried both of our TV's (each connected to a different indoor antenna) and tried moving both antennas around with no success. By the time I came home (around 10:30pm or so), KMGH-DT seemed just fine.

Are we really ready for the transition?

KUSA-DT has been off the air for several hours now, and there is a crawl on VHF 9 letting viewers know their HD transmitter is down and they're working to fix it.

Given this would put them off the air completely as of one week from today, and there's not even a mention of it at this time on their web site…

I was wondering if anyone would post on this unplanned outage. Quite disturbing at this point in the transition! At 6:45 AM I couldn't even get analog 9-0 OTA, so I didn't see the message about the HD transmitter. I certainly hope that KUSA-DT won't be vulnerable to a single point failure after transition, but given the budget pressure at the local stations I wouldn't be surprised if backup capability hasn't been fully funded.

I was wondering if anyone would post on this unplanned outage. Quite disturbing at this point in the transition! At 6:45 AM I couldn't even get analog 9-0 OTA, so I didn't see the message about the HD transmitter. I certainly hope that KUSA-DT won't be vulnerable to a single point failure after transition, but given the budget pressure at the local stations I wouldn't be surprised if backup capability hasn't been fully funded.

I just looked into it. Here's their FCC filing for a backup:

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/prefill_and_display.pl?Application_id=1304472&Service=DX&Form_id=301&Facility_id=23074

- Trip

I just looked into it. Here's their FCC filing for a backup:

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/prefill_and_display.pl?Application_id=1304472&Service=DX&Form_id=301&Facility_id=23074

- Trip

In my correspondence with KUSA's transmitter engineer he mentioned that the December and February tests (DTV on RF9) were with the auxilliary antenna/transmitter. It was the March test that they were testing the main transmitter/antenna. KUSA tested at 39 KW ERP, which is just 6 KW short of their approved max of 45KW. It was this test that convinced me that I am not going to get a reliable signal from KUSA after April 15th without changing my configuration.

Which of course is why I'll be on the roof this weekend, weather permitting and assuming everything I ordered from SolidSignal and Warren Electronics gets here by Saturday.

I have been checking, every so often, for new FCC documents filed by KRMA.

KRMA-TV filed an updated FCC 387 (DTV TRANSITION STATUS REPORT): BDTUET 20090408ALX with a status date of 04/09/2009. It seems to affirm that they want to set up a transmitter based on the FCC 340 (APPLICATION FOR CONSTRUCTION PERMIt): BMPEDT 20080825AAI ACCEPTED FOR FILING with a status date of 08/26/2008.

If I am reading it correctly, that permit does not seem to match with an existing tower. It seems to be a low profile tower. It seems to be north and east of the analog 20 Mt Morrison tower and a bit east of the analog KPXC facility. The tower description seems to look like the one described in the permit granted by Jeffco on 4/1/2008. I have not found anything to indicate any work has been done based on that permit.

The KRMA website said they planned to go to 1000MW ERP on May 19, 2009 from the top of a tower. http://www.rmpbs.org/panorama/index.cfm/entry/434/UPDATE:-Our-DTV-transition-plan-

Does anyone know for sure what tower they plan to use on May 19, 2009?

Does anyone know for sure what antenna they plan to use on May 19, 2009?

If it is the existing analog 20 tower that the "Ice Bridge" services, shouldn't there be some sort of documentation at the FCC website? The "Ice Bridge" permit has the wrong power, height, and probably antenna. The permit referenced in the 387 seems to have the wrong tower description and location.

I don't understand how they can issue a new FCC 387 that does not agree with what they seem to be planning. Is that permitted?

KRMA changed their tsid to KTSC's tsid for a brief time, and then changed to KRMJ, including all of KRMJ's TVCT information. So KRMA is currently identifying itself as KRMJ, along with changing its major channel number from 6 to 18.

This kind of problem indicates to me that they must have the psip generation equipment for all of their stations in one location, which I guess shouldn't be a surprise.

I have a mast mounted preamp (a Winegard AP8283) directly behind the center of my CM 4228. The preamp has a 300 ohm input and I have a very short piece of quality 300 ohm wire between the antenna and the preamp. I have had incredible success with this setup, so I really don't want to mess with it in order to get KUSA.

So, what I want to do is combine the output from the preamp connected to the 4228 with the unamplified output (at least for my first try) of a VHF-Hi antenna. I also want to filter out the VHF from the 4228. My problem is trying to figure out how to do this filtering and also provide power to the preamp.

If that solution doesn't work I may add another preamp to the VHF side, although at that point I will probably try replacing the current preamp with a 300-75 ohm balun and try using one preamp on the combined output.

Anyway, here is what I am planning to do. I think it will work, but I would appreciate any input. I plan to use three components: 1) a two way splitter that passes power to one side (probably has a DC block on the other), 2) a Pico-Macom SUB/CATV signal combiner, and 3) a Pico-Macom UHF/VHF signal combiner.

The two combiners have low signal loss, the splitter has the typical signal loss for a 2 way splitter, but it will be after the preamp. Both of the signal combiners pass power to the low frequency side. The purpose of the SUB/CATV signal combiner is to get power to the preamp without reintroducing the VHF frequencies from the CM4228 that were filtered out by the UHF/VHF signal combiner.

Instead of trying to describe the hookup, I've attached a diagram below.


Well, given your current constraints (single existing pre-amp w/ 300 ohm connection; desire to keep direct connection between CM4228 and pre-amp; desire to not amplify new high-VHF output) and my inability to find a current source for the splitter/combiner I use that is DC passive on the UHF side (bought it at Rat Shack years ago), your solution sounds quite innovative and workable. But, I don't see how you can use the new VHF antenna without a pre-amp unless it is a really large (i.e., lots of metal) antenna and I thought you wanted to keep the second antenna somewhat unobtrusive.

Anyway, I think you'll probably end up with a new VHF/UHF pre-amp (75 ohm inputs) to use with both antennas. Then the CM4228 should have a balun attached to the antenna leads and a UVSJ (to split out and capture a clean UHF signal; VHF routed to null and terminated) between the balun and the pre-amp. The pre-amp would then be the combiner and there wouldn't be any power pass issues.

Good luck with your current plan.

Anyway, I think you'll probably end up with a new VHF/UHF pre-amp (75 ohm inputs) to use with both antennas. Then the CM4228 should have a balun attached to the antenna leads and a UVSJ (to split out and capture a clean UHF signal; VHF routed to null and terminated) between the balun and the pre-amp. The pre-amp would then be the combiner and there wouldn't be any power pass issues.

Couldn't help but think of all the people trying to get OTA in places like Ft Collins. Clearly NOT a piece of cake. Having to deal with VHF and UHF really makes things complicated unless you are close to the transmitters! Good luck!

But, I don't see how you can use the new VHF antenna without a pre-amp unless it is a really large (i.e., lots of metal) antenna and I thought you wanted to keep the second antenna somewhat unobtrusive.

Anyway, I think you'll probably end up with a new VHF/UHF pre-amp (75 ohm inputs) to use with both antennas. Then the CM4228 should have a balun attached to the antenna leads and a UVSJ (to split out and capture a clean UHF signal; VHF routed to null and terminated) between the balun and the pre-amp. The pre-amp would then be the combiner and there wouldn't be any power pass issues.


Yes, I already have come to the same conclusion before I actually installed anything. So I am going to go with a new preamp. My current preamp, although very good, has a 300 ohm input. It was VHF capable, but to use it I would need to use a balun at the antenna and then another balun after the combiner to go to the preamp, and I was concerned about too much signal loss before the preamp in that case. So I've ordered a CM7777 instead, which is more appropriate when combining a UHF and VHF antenna since it has separate UHF and VHF inputs. I'm hoping that the slightly lower noise figure on the UHF side will compensate for the balun loss. With the separate UHF and VHF inputs I don't think I need the UVSJ in front of the UHF input on the CM7777. But I've got one just in case. I am planning on putting an HLSJ in front of the VHF input to filter out FM and low VHF, since I've heard the FM trap in the CM7777 doesn't filter out the lower FM frequencies, since it is trying to preserve channel 6, and I know that FM interference is an issue also.

I just hope the CM7777 is as resistant to overload as my previous preamp (a Winegard AP8283), since there are local transmitters that can cause issues in this area. Luckily none of them are directly in the direction of Lookout Mountain.

Couldn't help but think of all the people trying to get OTA in places like Ft Collins. Clearly NOT a piece of cake. Having to deal with VHF and UHF really makes things complicated unless you are close to the transmitters! Good luck!

Actually, I'm hoping to get by OK on my old broadband antenna, a hulking 14' monster hidden in the attic. If it "just works" as the migration proceeds, I can't see the point of replacing it.

Of course, folks who decide to "cut the cable" will have to look into the newer antenna products. It looks as though any number of manufacturers are supplying new units -- or simply rebranding the old products as "HD" :-)


Jim McCauley

Well, I ordered a new WG Hi-VHF/UHF Yagi 80" antenna from SolidSignal on Tuesday to replace my existing WG 50" UHF-only Yagi antenna. I'm hoping it will arrive today so I can install this weekend and be ready for the switchover next week.

Btw, channel 7-2 showed up on my HR10-250 this week. Anyone else?

Btw, channel 7-2 showed up on my HR10-250 this week. Anyone else?
There is no 7-2 subchannel. Are you sure it wasn't 7-27? Otherwise your HR10-250 is possibly mapping 7-27 to 7-2. However, 7-27 has been around for a while, it didn't just show up last week.

What did show up last week was a second audio track on the main channel (7-1), but that would not (or at least should not) result in a new subchannel. What programming do you actually see when you view 7-2?

There is no 7-2 subchannel. Are you sure it wasn't 7-27? Otherwise your HR10-250 is possibly mapping 7-27 to 7-2. However, 7-27 has been around for a while, it didn't just show up last week.

What did show up last week was a second audio track on the main channel (7-1), but that would not (or at least should not) result in a new subchannel. What programming do you actually see when you view 7-2?7-2. Azteca America Affiliate. KMGHDT2. It showed up in the guide a few days ago.

7-2. Azteca America Affiliate. KMGHDT2. It showed up in the guide a few days ago.

That is what is supposed to be 7-27. I guess DirecTV didn't bother updating the guide until now, and I guess they decided to map it to 7-2.

Btw, channel 7-2 showed up on my HR10-250 this week. Anyone else?

Yeah, my TiVo HD did the same thing. However, since the station is actually on 7-27, it just shows a black screen on 7-2. It recognized 7-27 the first time I tuned to 7-1, but there is no guide data.

I guess DirecTV didn't bother updating the guide until now, and I guess they decided to map it to 7-2.

Assuming they use the same guide data as TiVo, it sounds like a problem at Tribune Media.

I just hope the CM7777 is as resistant to overload as my previous preamp (a Winegard AP8283), since there are local transmitters that can cause issues in this area. Luckily none of them are directly in the direction of Lookout Mountain.

jsmar, I did some thinking in this direction the other week, and chose to try a
CM-7778 instead to amplify my CM-4228. My reasoning was that RF 11 (when
it's actually on the air) presented a fairly high overload risk, and that I would
get 6dB more headroom on VHF (2dB UHF) due to the lower gain + different
output capability. I don't know how I'll fare on KUSA and KMGH, since I've missed
all of the VHF tests, but analog is excellent for KMGH and good for KUSA, with
none of the herringbone your cap showed. I had a Winegard HDP-269 as an
alternate to my current CM-7775, but the much lower gain just knocks out too
much stuff on my Tivo.

Anyway, just wanted to let you know my thoughts on the CM-7778 vs the 7777
in case you do run into overload.

Rob T

jsmar, I did some thinking in this direction the other week, and chose to try a
CM-7778 instead to amplify my CM-4228. My reasoning was that RF 11 (when
it's actually on the air) presented a fairly high overload risk, and that I would
get 6dB more headroom on VHF (2dB UHF) due to the lower gain + different
output capability. I don't know how I'll fare on KUSA and KMGH, since I've missed
all of the VHF tests, but analog is excellent for KMGH and good for KUSA, with
none of the herringbone your cap showed. I had a Winegard HDP-269 as an
alternate to my current CM-7775, but the much lower gain just knocks out too
much stuff on my Tivo.

Anyway, just wanted to let you know my thoughts on the CM-7778 vs the 7777
in case you do run into overload.

Rob T

I didn't have any overload problems with my AP 8283, which has higher gain than the 7777 (29 vs. 23 db VHF, 28 vs. 26 db UHF), so I think I'll be OK. However, the CM4228 has a dip in response in the channel 11-12 range, so that might have saved me. Of course, I won't really know even after I've finished installing everything (hopefully this weekend), because KQCK appears to be taking one of their broadcasting sabbaticals right now.

Anyone notice that Channel 9-2 was froze on a promo screen this morning starting just after 9 AM and lasting at least an hour. KUSA-DT, not ready for big-time transition!

I didn't have any overload problems with my AP 8283 ...

Perhaps I spoke too soon. I installed an Antenna Craft Y5-7-13 upper VHF antenna this weekend. I also switched my preamp from the Winegard AP8283 to a ChannelMaster 7777. I've got a clear picture on analog RF9, so I have improved RF9 reception, hopefully enough to get a solid lock on the digital service when it starts on RF9 after midnight this Wednesday.

With the 7777 I'm getting improved signal quality across the board, with a few exceptions. I don't know if that is due to the better UHF noise figure or if it might be due to the lower gain, i.e. perhaps I was slightly overloading the inputs to my tuner. The exceptions are some of the off axis stations. Signal quality went from 71 to 55 for KFCT, from 88 to 78 for KPXC, and I pretty much lost KGWN from Cheyenne, which I'm not happy about, although I'm willing to live with it as long as I get KUSA-DT after the transition. These channels all have a fair amount of multipath, so the difference in the preamps might have affected the multipath detection capabilities in the latest ATSC tuners.

I tried a few experiments while installing the new equipment. My first experiment was running the CM4228 through the combined input of the CM 7777 (i.e. before setting the CM 7777 for split inputs) to see if anything changed in the high VHF band. It did. It improved the picture on KUSA analog, but still it was not as good as what I get via the AC Y5-7-13. Again, I don't know if this is due to the lower gain, or better FM filtering.

Another experiment I tried was running the Y5-7-13 through the combined input to see how it did for UHF reception. It did quite well on a lot of UHF stations, in some cases better than the CM4228. However, there were also other stations it could not get at all. Since the antenna is not designed for UHF my guess is that it has a funky response curve in the UHF range, with various nulls and peaks. Also, it did not do better than the CM4228 for any on axis stations. At first I was surprised how well it pulled in KWHD from Castle Rock (RF46). I don't usually get a usable signal from that station with the CM4228, and I got a very good rock solid signal from the Y5-7-13. But then I remembered that the CM4228 also got a very good signal from KWHD when it was pointing in that direction. So my guess is that the Y5-7-13 is a lot less directional at UHF frequencies. The Y5-7-13 also excelled at pulling in stations from behind the antenna, including doing a great job of pulling in KGWN from Cheyenne. This antenna probably has a larger rear lobe at UHF frequencies. Also, the Y5-7-13 is above the chimney, rather than mounted in front of it like the CM4228, so the Y5-7-13 doesn't have a chimney in the way, reducing reception from the rear, not to mention that it is also about 5-6 feet higher.

On the other side, the Y5-7-13 couldn't lock at all on KCEC, which has a reasonably strong on axis signal, i.e. it is located on Lookout Mountain. I attribute this to a likely null at that frequency, or it just starts to roll off at the higher UHF frequencies (although it was able to get RF46 just fine, KCEC is on RF51).

Anyway, the Y5-7-13 was able to get most of the UHF stations from Fort Collins, with a good preamp (and a fairly good location in terms of LOS). My guess is that if you live closer to Denver you can probably get away with using a Y5-7-13 as your only antenna. I don't think I would recommend that, so I don't know if this information is actually useful.

Anyway, I'm fairly happy with how the "upgrade" went, with the exception of losing KGWN. However, although I liked the idea of a Northern Colorado newscast, I only actually watched it once (and that is pretty much the only thing I'm interested in on KGWN, other than as a backup to KCNC when it goes off the air).

Of course, I won't really know how well things went until after midnight this Wednesday.

Interesting report, jsmar - you have more of a mixed bag at your location.

I replaced my CM-7775 preamp with a CM-7778 this weekend. They are installed indoors for the moment, and I have switches to make easy comparisons between them. I'm pleased to see that almost everything comes in as well with the 7778 as it did with the 7775. The 7778 loses a small amount of gain, but it's not significant, and it's not filtering VHF. I feel good about the moves to VHF on Thursday - the CM-4228 pulls in a very clear KMGH analog, and KUSA has slight snow and ghosting I can only see in some scenes. What I was most afraid of was losing signal on KRMA and KBDI in the time before theie changes, but so far so good. My lower-gain Winegard HDP-269 would have done that to me.

Regarding KFCT and KGWN, I don't get reliable service from either of them. I do better on my Dish receiver, but even there I get more reliability from KDVR and KCNC, which are on-axis. I do like to get the northern Colorado news, such as it is. It's funny to see some of the technical goofs, like forgetting to switch to the right feed.

One other interesting this was that I found a wiring error that made a difference. I had a scheme with pairs of switches where I could feed my HR10-250 Tivo with either a direct signal or a split signal, with my Dish receiver getting the split if present. I had the splitter backwards, so going through is didn't benefit my Dish receiver much and impaired my Tivo more than it should have. Now I can't really consistently tell the difference in signal quality on the Tivo, so I can use the Dish. Kinda nice when you get an extra receiver all of a sudden :-)

Back around February 17, Comcast had a deal for basic cable ($10/mo for 12 months). I just heard a Comcast ad on the radio advertising the same deal. Apparently they're taking advantage of 7, 9, and 20's decision to transition on April 16.

What they don't mention is that KRMT is digital-only on Comcast, so without a QAM tuner you can't get KRMT with basic cable.

I replaced my CM-7775 preamp with a CM-7778 this weekend. They are installed indoors for the moment ...

I installed my CM-7777 indoors also. I installed it on the rafter below where the chimney comes through, so I'm not adding that much distance between the antenna and the preamp. I just thought that with combining two antennas and adding the HLSJ (as a second FM/Low VHF trap) before the preamp on the VHF side that I didn't want to have that many outdoor connections.

I also realized that I may have made a mistake in wire selection. Since I was replacing some of the wiring, I chose to go with a better quality RG6: Carol Command Series RG6 quad shield. This cable has better shielding than the RG6 quad shield I got from Home Depot previously (there is at least twice as much wire in each of the two braided wire shields). However, after installing the wire I realized that I forgot to check the UV rating of the cable. I still can't find the rating anywhere, but my guess is that it is not UV resistant, because the outer jacket is a clear blue, rather than black. So I may be replacing all those outdoor connections within the year (the sun in Colorado is brutal).

Back around February 17, Comcast had a deal for basic cable ($10/mo for 12 months). I just heard a Comcast ad on the radio advertising the same deal. Apparently they're taking advantage of 7, 9, and 20's decision to transition on April 16.

What they don't mention is that KRMT is digital-only on Comcast, so without a QAM tuner you can't get KRMT with basic cable.

Every once in a while they slip into some fraudulent advertising. For a while, at bus stops their signs spoke of: 'I love free HDTV'. They, later on dropped the word 'free'. The other day I noticed one of their ads on TV mentioning the need for a 'digital' antenna.

Every once in a while they slip into some fraudulent advertising. For a while, at bus stops their signs spoke of: 'I love free HDTV'. They, later on dropped the word 'free'. The other day I noticed one of their ads on TV mentioning the need for a 'digital' antenna.

How is this worse than the "PSAs" KUSA has been running in which they show how they "helped" someone get ready for DTV?

They installed their converter box but dumped their "old fashioned" antenna for a "new" one.

Their old antenna of course was a good old combo VHF/UHF model and the new one was a UHF Yagi.

That's not going to "help" that viewer much after Thursday…

Has anyone else had reception problems this week?

Normally I get pretty much ever station available in Denver Metro with no problems, with the exception of 7-1 and 7-27, those sometimes just require a slight antenna readjustment to keep steady picture.

Sunday I woke up and I had lost 2, 7, 9 and 12. And not just poor reception, my tuner couldn't even find the digital signal at all and defaulted back to the analog signal. In the past when I had issues with 7 my TV would still recognize that there was a digital signal present but it would just have a hard time keeping a constant picture. Now on the aforementioned channels my TV doesn't see anything digital signal at all.

I live just east of downtown in Capitol Hill...any thoughts as to why 4 channels would just disappear for me?

Their old antenna of course was a good old combo VHF/UHF model and the new one was a UHF Yagi.


Is that PSA available as a video online? I found one where they (KUSA) are saying if you have a rooftop antenna and are having problems, try a cheap $9 indoor antenna.

An indoor antenna might work, but if someone already has a rooftop installation, why scrap it for an indoor antenna? I suppose since it's easier to add an indoor antenna than fix a broken antenna or turn it to the proper direction or re-cable it, etc.

Their old antenna of course was a good old combo VHF/UHF model and the new one was a UHF Yagi.
If I recollect correctly, the old antenna was a VHF only antenna. I thought it was really dumb on KUSA's part to then show replacing the VHF only antenna with a UHF only antenna, which, of course, is the wrong antenna after 4-15-09.

The current Comcast promo is very misleading. The promo essentially states that if you have an analog antenna, you should switch to Comcast. My thought is that when a station, such as KUSA, agrees to run a promo such as Comcast's, they are promoting the same "thought" - that you'll need cable after analog is shut off. Poor PR just to gain a few ad $. Viewers will be blaming KUSA for the "necessity" of a $10 a month cable bill.

Sunday I woke up and I had lost 2, 7, 9 and 12. ... any thoughts as to why 4 channels would just disappear for me?

All DTV broadcasts have been operating normally this week. When more than one channel drops out at a time like that, the issue is usually with the receive antenna or feed system (cable and associated components).

If your antenna is outside, water may have infiltrated a connection or the coax cable (it was raining Sunday morning), or a mechanical component such as a coax transformer or splitter may have failed.

If you have an indoor antenna, the culprit may well be leaves on nearby trees, believe it or not. As trees leaf out, which starts right about this time of year, the leaves increase multipath interference. Multipath kills DTV reception. Re-locating the antenna within the room may help, but the best solution is an antenna above the roof, where it has a better chance at "seeing" the signals from above the trees.

Looks like KUSA doesn't know how to set their countdown clock correctly:

http://www.9news.com/dtv/

Originally Posted by chaisson21
Sunday I woke up and I had lost 2, 7, 9 and 12. ... any thoughts as to why 4 channels would just disappear for me?
It would be helpful if you could give a little more information. Do you have an indoor or outdoor antenna? If indoors, are there many walls blocking it from the signals coming in from the west? Is the antenna feed split? Do you have an amp? Are you using a settop box or a built-in tuner in the TV. Have the channels come back yet?

I suspect your antenna is indoors since you refer to adjusting it to receive channel 7.

Sunday was a high humidity, cool, rainy day. I've noticed that my signal levels drop a few points on days such as Sunday. It could be that you are receiving just enough signal to lock on these 4 channels under ideal conditions and when days like Sunday occur, the signal level drops below threshhold to lock. Your comments about channel 7, which is usually the weakest station for most of us, indicate this may be your problem.

While leaves/vegetation can be a problem, there really aren't any out yet so I doubt that's your problem.

Looks like KUSA doesn't know how to set their countdown clock correctly:

http://www.9news.com/dtv/

In the TV business they often consider the first few hours past midnight as "belonging" to the previous day.

With that said, it will be interesting to see which April 16 KUSA means. :D :D

In the TV business they often consider the first few hours past midnight as "belonging" to the previous day.
With that said, they are still counting down to a specific time and they're 1 day off. I think they just made a counting error. There will be 23 hours and 59 minutes left on their countdown clock when they switch off analog.

With that said, they are still counting down to a specific time and they're 1 day off. I think they just made a counting error. There will be 23 hours and 59 minutes left on their countdown clock when they switch off analog.

And what time is KMGH on.

http://www.thedenverchannel.com/digital-tv/index.html

While leaves/vegetation can be a problem, there really aren't any out yet so I doubt that's your problem.

True for the 'burbs where we both live; not quite so for neighborhoods close to downtown. Capital Hill is part of the urban heat island, where (depending on species) trees tend to start leafing out a week or two earlier than they do in surrounding suburbs. Also true that the possibility of leaf scatter was mere speculation on my part; however, tree foliage starts to become noticeable around here about the third week of April... therefore, 2+2.

Perhaps I spoke too soon. I installed an Antenna Craft Y5-7-13 upper VHF antenna this weekend. I also switched my preamp from the Winegard AP8283 to a ChannelMaster 7777. I've got a clear picture on analog RF9, so I have improved RF9 reception, hopefully enough to get a solid lock on the digital service when it starts on RF9 after midnight this Wednesday.

With the 7777 I'm getting improved signal quality across the board, with a few exceptions. I don't know if that is due to the better UHF noise figure or if it might be due to the lower gain, i.e. perhaps I was slightly overloading the inputs to my tuner. The exceptions are some of the off axis stations. Signal quality went from 71 to 55 for KFCT, from 88 to 78 for KPXC, and I pretty much lost KGWN from Cheyenne, which I'm not happy about, although I'm willing to live with it as long as I get KUSA-DT after the transition. These channels all have a fair amount of multipath, so the difference in the preamps might have affected the multipath detection capabilities in the latest ATSC tuners.

I tried a few experiments while installing the new equipment. My first experiment was running the CM4228 through the combined input of the CM 7777 (i.e. before setting the CM 7777 for split inputs) to see if anything changed in the high VHF band. It did. It improved the picture on KUSA analog, but still it was not as good as what I get via the AC Y5-7-13. Again, I don't know if this is due to the lower gain, or better FM filtering.

Another experiment I tried was running the Y5-7-13 through the combined input to see how it did for UHF reception. It did quite well on a lot of UHF stations, in some cases better than the CM4228. However, there were also other stations it could not get at all. Since the antenna is not designed for UHF my guess is that it has a funky response curve in the UHF range, with various nulls and peaks. Also, it did not do better than the CM4228 for any on axis stations. At first I was surprised how well it pulled in KWHD from Castle Rock (RF46). I don't usually get a usable signal from that station with the CM4228, and I got a very good rock solid signal from the Y5-7-13. But then I remembered that the CM4228 also got a very good signal from KWHD when it was pointing in that direction. So my guess is that the Y5-7-13 is a lot less directional at UHF frequencies. The Y5-7-13 also excelled at pulling in stations from behind the antenna, including doing a great job of pulling in KGWN from Cheyenne. This antenna probably has a larger rear lobe at UHF frequencies. Also, the Y5-7-13 is above the chimney, rather than mounted in front of it like the CM4228, so the Y5-7-13 doesn't have a chimney in the way, reducing reception from the rear, not to mention that it is also about 5-6 feet higher.

On the other side, the Y5-7-13 couldn't lock at all on KCEC, which has a reasonably strong on axis signal, i.e. it is located on Lookout Mountain. I attribute this to a likely null at that frequency, or it just starts to roll off at the higher UHF frequencies (although it was able to get RF46 just fine, KCEC is on RF51).

Anyway, the Y5-7-13 was able to get most of the UHF stations from Fort Collins, with a good preamp (and a fairly good location in terms of LOS). My guess is that if you live closer to Denver you can probably get away with using a Y5-7-13 as your only antenna. I don't think I would recommend that, so I don't know if this information is actually useful.

Anyway, I'm fairly happy with how the "upgrade" went, with the exception of losing KGWN. However, although I liked the idea of a Northern Colorado newscast, I only actually watched it once (and that is pretty much the only thing I'm interested in on KGWN, other than as a backup to KCNC when it goes off the air).

Of course, I won't really know how well things went until after midnight this Wednesday.

Glad to hear that your new setup is working out well so far. Interesting information regarding the Y5-7-13 in the UHF band. Surprising that it had that much gain outside of its designed spectrum. But, given that it did have that gain, it isn't surprising that it performed near equally to the CM4228 on LOS and better than on off-axis reception. The Y5-7-13 has a pretty wide beamwidth and a pretty high F-to-B Ratio to help it off-axis and while the CM4228 has a very narrow beamwidth (it is considered a highly directional antenna, though that point has been argued by its fans in various AVS threads) and the CM4228's gain drops below channel 20, which reduces its advantage on LOS reception of those channels.

I'm still looking to replace my 5-foot, no-name, UHF/VHF combo antenna (used only for VHF) with a Y5-7-13 for space and mounting clearance (attic install) reasons. But, since I use the signal off that antenna to also supply the FM radio signal to my A/V receiver, I'm wondering how that antenna does with FM radio reception. Any experience with it in that mode?

BTW, I was wondering, what is your LOS distance to the LCG tower?

I'm still looking to replace my 5-foot, no-name, UHF/VHF combo antenna (used only for VHF) with a Y5-7-13 for space and mounting clearance (attic install) reasons. But, since I use the signal off that antenna to also supply the FM radio signal to my A/V receiver, I'm wondering how that antenna does with FM radio reception. Any experience with it in that mode?

CEB, I've had the Y5 since last summer, combined on a UVSJ with a 4-bay UHF antenna, also in the attic. At the entertainment center, I run the signals through a Winegard CA-8800 to strip FM signals and route them to the receiver. The Y5 is by no means a DXing champ, but it will provide clean analog FM stereo out to at least 50 miles. I'm getting everything out of Fort Collins (73 miles, LOS), even though the antenna is pointed at Lookout Mountain, 51 degrees away; stereo at that range isn't totally clean, but neither does it sound so awful that it's annoying to listen to at length. (Bet it would clear right up if I put the thing outside...)

A/C didn't design the Y5 for FM, but it is almost exactly a quarter wave for the band. That counts for something, even if gain is modest.

I'm still looking to replace my 5-foot, no-name, UHF/VHF combo antenna (used only for VHF) with a Y5-7-13 for space and mounting clearance (attic install) reasons. But, since I use the signal off that antenna to also supply the FM radio signal to my A/V receiver, I'm wondering how that antenna does with FM radio reception. Any experience with it in that mode?

BTW, I was wondering, what is your LOS distance to the LCG tower?

I'm doing my best to filter out FM, both with a HLSJ before the preamp and with the FM trap enabled within the preamp. I've pretty much given up on OTA radio at home, and am doing strictly internet radio via a Slim Devices (Logitech) Squeezebox.

My LOS distance to the LCG tower is 55.5 miles.

KRMT switched their display channel from 40.1 to 41.1 today, which is the correct display channel number.

KRMT switched their display channel from 40.1 to 41.1 today, which is the correct display channel number.

Did they also adjust their PSIP call sign from "KRMT-40" to something else?

- Trip

Can't wait till tomorrow - It will probably make more headlines than the tea parties

Did they also adjust their PSIP call sign from "KRMT-40" to something else?

- Trip

Yes, it is "KRMT 41" now. Also, they changed the program number from 2 to 1 (something not visible to most, but Trip reports it on his website as part of the "digital channel", i.e. now the display channel is 41-1, and the digital channel is 40.1.

Does what I list now for it look about correct?

- Trip

Does what I list now for it look about correct?

Yes.

posted by dljerger:
And what time is KMGH on.
KMGH corrected their clock today. It no longer shows an extra day.

posted by dljerger:

KMGH corrected their clock today. It no longer shows an extra day.

I noticed but it still has an extra hour

I noticed but it still has an extra hour
Perchance, did they start this countdown before the switch from MST to MDT?

Is anyone staying up for the transition?

I just got back from the Post Office (IRS Collection Center), earlier this year than usual, and I think I'll stay up another couple of hours and see how it goes.

This, after all, is the real transition for Denver, since no other major station will be changing frequencies (not considering PBS). This is the big one. I thought there would be greater excitement and forum activity.

Is anyone staying up for the transition?


Well I always stay up late, so I'll be monitoring the switch. I'll be curious to see how long it takes after analog goes off before the digital starts. I believe as long as nothing goes wrong it should be quite fast. Potentially they only have to throw two switches (one to turn off the analog transmitter and another to turn on the digital transmitter). I'm also wondering when they will turn off the STA transmitters, i.e. RF16 and RF17. During testing they have left both on at the same time, but now that they are doing it for real they should turn off the STA transmitters first (making it three switches to throw), otherwise people who do a rescan while both are on will potentially run into issues (requiring a second rescan to correct in some cases).

Longer term, I believe that KZCO-LD will be using KMGH's RF17 equipment to start broadcasting. I don't know if they have to wait for June 12th or whether they can go as soon as they move the transmitter equipment. I have my doubts that I will be able to get them in Fort Collins, because they will be transmitting with an ERP of only 8.8 kw. I also wonder if KMGH will continue to send their programming on one of their subchannels after they come up on their own transmitter. It almost doesn't make sense to even bother transmitting via a local low power station if you have a full power station sending your programming also, although perhaps they have plans to add additional subchannels in the future.

.... Approximately 1 hour, 10 minutes to go.

The better question is when TiVo will send out guide updates, otherwise their units will still tune to the UHF frequencies as there will be no connect between the post-transition channels and the pre-transition schedules in their program guide. :(

I have Windows Media Center, probably same situation as TiVo.

Gettin' close. I receive both 7 & 9 analog with my UHF yagi, so hopefully I'm good to go.

Well, 9 switched, but not 7 yet.

I was disappointed as I was expecting KUSA to break in or do something, but no, Ice-T just got cut off in mid-syllable. :(

Of note is I can find nothing on KMGH's web site about them shutting off analog this morning, so perhaps they decided not to go after all…

The counter at http://www.thedenverchannel.com/digital-tv/index.html still says 46 minutes, so maybe they're 'flipping the switch' at 1:00am?

ok, 7 now switched.

Now for signal report, 9 has dropped 10 percentage points from their channel 16 carrier, while 7 is now 10% points stronger.

Hope this isn't final for 9.
7's signal looks great now, was my weakest (other than PBS), now amongst my strongest.

7 and 9 both have cut analog transmission, and the directv sat local feed is black too

7 is black on DirecTV SD local - 9 is still there.

My signal report: RF9 is about 1 point higher in average quality, but it has a wider min to max range, i.e. it varies more than RF16 did.

RF7 is about 3 points higher in average quality, with about the same range as before on RF17.

Obviously I'm happy that my new VHF antenna is working as planned. I'm not sure if I want to do the experiment to see if I actually would have gotten it with just the CM4228. I'll probably do that someday, but not soon.

I believe KUSA is probably transmitting at max power. I don't know why KMGH has a stronger signal with less power, using the exact same antenna. Can the difference be solely attributed to the better propagation characteristics of RF7 vs. RF9?

Anyway, we all want to see reception reports to get an idea of how things have changed over the entire broadcast area, so keep those reports coming!

My channel 9 signal strength increased by 9-10 points and my channel 7 signal strength increased 4-5 points. Both on my E* receivers. I haven't checked my 3 TV's with digital tuners or the two analogs with converter boxes yet.

I also noticed that I get KRMT on 40-1 and 41-1. I still get no video on my E* ViP 222 although I do on my E* ViP 211. Guess they haven't totally cleaned up their PSIP info yet.

The KUSA digital countdown clock on their web page shows 23 hours and 20 minutes remaining. Guess they didn't read my email.

7 and 9 coming in great here in Louisville, and of course no KTVD analog.

My TiVo S3's signal meter reports:

KMGH-DT: 99 (of 100)
KUSA-DT: 95 (of 100)
KTVD-DT: 100 (of 100)

My previous highest reading had been from KWGN-DT, at 98 out of 100.

7 is black on DirecTV SD local - 9 is still there.

I'll be curious to see how long it takes for this to be fixed. How about HD local, is that working?

Nice - I tried to remind TiVo that the channels had changed and was told I could not submit the web form because the site was "Down for Maintenance" until "(None) Pacific Time."

7 and 9 coming in great here in Louisville, and of course no KTVD analog.

My TiVo S3's signal meter reports:

KMGH-DT: 99 (of 100)
KUSA-DT: 95 (of 100)
KTVD-DT: 100 (of 100)

My previous highest reading had been from KWGN-DT, at 98 out of 100.

With my passive CM Stealth antenna in a second floor closet and my DISH TR40-CRA, the reported levels for 9 are a little lower than what I was getting on 16. 7 is about the same as 17 was. In both cases the signal level seems to be good enough that I don't anticipate any issues.

E*'s digital feeds of 7 & 9 are up and running.

With my passive CM Stealth antenna in a second floor closet and my DISh TR40-CRA, the reported levels for 9 are a little lower than what I was getting on 16. 7 is about the same as 17 was. In both cases the signal level seems to be good enough that I don't anticipate any issues.

My KMGH and KUSA signals are much stronger on VHF than they were on UHF, which is consistent with what I saw from them during their testing.

Compare my pre-transition signal levels to my current levels:

December 16, 2008:
KMGH-DT (7-1, UHF 17): 84/100
KUSA-DT (9-1, UHF 16): 78/100
KTVD-DT (20-1, UHF 19): 81/100

February 16, 2009:
KMGH-DT (7-1, VHF 7): 99/100
KUSA-DT: (9-1, VHF 9): 95/100
KTVD-DT (20-1, UHF 19): 100/100

Perhaps your VHF antenna isn't all that sensitive?

Media Center PC: Can't get the new channels (I assume it's looking in the wrong place). Have some timers for tomorrow. Maybe it'll get fixed overnight.

Dish 622/722: A simple rescan didn't do it. I had to wipe the locals, reboot, then rescan.

The new channels are there, BUT all the timers using the channels seem to be broken. None of the effected events are showing up on the timer schedule. This could be a pain.

That's just wild.

My KMGH and KUSA signals are much stronger on VHF than they were on UHF, which is consistent with what I saw from them during their testing.

Compare my pre-transition signal levels to my current levels:

KMGH-DT (7-1, UHF 17): 84/100
KUSA-DT (9-1, UHF 16): 78/100

KMGH-DT (7-1, VHF 7): 99/100
KUSA-DT: (9-1, VHF 9): 95/100

Perhaps your VHF antenna isn't that sensitive?

The CM 3010 stealth may be better on UHF than VHF. Since it just services 2 rarely used 20" analog TVs with TR40 CECBs, and the signal seems to be plenty strong enough to not be a problem, I won't waste any time or money on it.

The CM 3010 stealth may be better on UHF than VHF. Since it just services 2 rarely used 20" analog TVs with TR40 CECBs, and the signal seems to be plenty strong enough to not be a problem, I won't waste any time or money on it.

Fair enough.

It's digital, so anything much above 70% should guarantee you blockie-free viewing whatever the weather.

KUSA and KMGH coming in nicely up here near Divide in Teller County. There is no Colorado Springs digital or analog OTA up here to speak of due to mountain blockage (Pikes Peak) so we have had to depend on Denver analog OTA for decades. Looks promising that we won't lose OTA service with the digital transition.

Media Center PC: Can't get the new channels (I assume it's looking in the wrong place). Have some timers for tomorrow. Maybe it'll get fixed overnight.

Dish 622/722: A simple rescan didn't do it. I had to wipe the locals, reboot, then rescan.

The new channels are there, BUT all the timers using the channels seem to be broken. None of the effected events are showing up on the timer schedule. This could be a pain.
This seems like this situation might not be easy to handle with an update type of scan. I would hope that a full scan would work for anything, but, if one is trying to avoid that, it may take a little playing around.

For my DISH TR40-CRA CECB, I had to delete 7 and 9 digital. Then I could go to 7 and 9 and do channel adds.

The same applied to the digital tuner in my Philips DVDR3576 recorder. I had to delete 7 and 9 digital. Then I could tune to 7, add it, and then tune to 9 and add it. The good news is that it looks like my weekly scheduled recordings have not been disturbed.

I could not find any way to get my Philips 42PF7320A (the design is probably over 4 years old) to just add the new 7 and 9. I suspect it had them mapped to 16 and 17 in some tables, and I could not find a way to clear that, short of a complete scan which got the job done. I had been trying to avoid that, because I lost KPXC digital 59-* from the tables. This TV really struggles to recover that station. I suspect the signal it gets off the back side of my antenna (at an angle to boot) is pretty weak.

Fair enough.

It's digital, so anything much above 70% should guarantee you blockie-free viewing whatever the weather.

Agreed. KUSA dropped from 88-95 to 80-88. KMGH stayed around 88-95. I don't expect any issues with either. I really think that I am mostly seeing some strange characteristics in the CM 3010 stealth, which is an unusual antenna.

My Philips 42ZPF7320A, which is my least sensitive tuner, but is connected to the main antenna is doing great on both stations. When I went into the setup mode, which just has a little bar display that seems to have just 4 levels, both were steady at the highest level.

I suspect things are going to be pretty good for those of us in the 25 mile range with no major obstructions. It will be interesting to hear how things go for the Ft Collins people. The positive report from Divide sounds pretty encouraging.

KUSA and KMGH coming in nicely up here near Divide in Teller County.
Teller County! Good Grief, is Lookout Mtn. GLOWING by now!? I guess Digital VHF works:cool:

Does anyone have any idea how quicky D* will be telling my HR20 that KMGH and KUSA are on new (old) channels? Hopefully it won't take too long.

Teller County! Good Grief, is Lookout Mtn. GLOWING by now!?

Good steady signal from both transmitters. The real test will come with the extreme weather and the +/- 3 feet of snow we are supposed to get in the next few days.:cool:

Teller County! Good Grief, is Lookout Mtn. GLOWING by now!? I guess Digital VHF works:cool:

Does anyone have any idea how quicky D* will be telling my HR20 that KMGH and KUSA are on new (old) channels? Hopefully it won't take too long.

D* and TiVo's channel maps all come from the same data provider, Tribune.

How long it will take them is anyone's guess, since they seem to delete and add back KBDI analog about once a week. :(

I stayed up for the transition; KUSA's was more abrupt than I'd expected. For this, an ad slot would have made sense, no? ("Hey, we're flipping!"). I thought KMGH was waiting for the end of Jimmy Kimmel, but they were a bit after that.

After 9 went off, I added the channel manually on my Dish receiver, and the same with 7. I was pretty happy - my CM-4228 + CM-7778 pulled in an 85% signal on both 7 & 9. So I made a great choice for my preamp, and am not missing the extra gain of a CM-7777.

My Directv Tivo experience is much less positive. The old Tivo firmware I have still "knows" 7 & 9 are broadcasting on UHF and can't be made to tune their VHF channels. The only exception is that since the DTV OTA guide doesn't know about 7-27, I can manually tune that. It also sees 85% signal, so once the OTA guide info is fixed, I'll be good. But I'm bummed that the firmware is so limited and that the guide is so hosed. Other DTV or Tivo folks, how can we complain about this? When they messed up KBDI (went to RF 13 way too soon), I contacted KBDI and let them know, and it seemed to be resolved soon, but it could have been another complaint that lead to that.

I thought I should explore all of the guide errors I see on my Directv Tivo. It is my limited understanding that all of this comes from the Tribune company, but channel mappings may not be part of this. If anyone has thoughts on how to point out errors, I'd love it. I will probably wait a couple of days and then contact the stations.

OTA guide errors:
- lists nonexistant KWGNDT2 2-2 (no impact)
- does not list KGWN 5-2 (can't tune it!)
- wrong channel for KMGH 7-x (can't tune it!)
- lists nonexistant 7-2 (no impact)
- does not list 7-27 (can't tune it!)
- wrong channel for KUSA 9-x (can't tune it!)
- does not list KLWY 27-2 (can't tune it!)
- wrong channel for KRMT 41-1 (tunes 20-1)

Rob T

I'm happy to see my setup is working at pulling everything it was Tuesday. I was concerned my Blonder Tongue UHF Antenna (BTY-UHF-BB) wouldn't be able to pick up 7 and 9 after the switch. Thankfully, they come in just fine still :)
I'm in Loveland with a tree and some hotels in my LOS. No pre-amps or amplification of any kind in use...straight from my antenna to my TV.
I only wish I had a way to measure signal strength so I could see if it's actually better or worse - but I haven't seen any pixellation that I used to have on 7.

At any rate, I'm quite happy it's all working and I don't have to spend more money a VHF antenna.

And now for the question of whether you can watch VHF channels 7 and 9 with a UHF antenna......

I can watch 7 and 9 with my indoor DB2 antenna in Louisville, but only if the antenna is aimed just right.. .signals strengths are around 50, whereas they were in the 70s before. It looks stable enough for now, but that may change with weather conditions. Perhaps I'll have to get a new antenna or move it higher up or outside.

KTVD-DT (20-1, UHF 19): 81/100

KTVD-DT (20-1, UHF 19): 100/100

I found this to be most interesting, since they didn't move their DTV channel. Apparently, adjacent analog interference was quite significant. This station improved more for you than the 2 VHF moves (+19 vs. +15 and +17).

I have three "UHF" antennas, and all of them are picking up both 7 and 9 digital this morning.
Radio Shack U75R, in garage.
Channel Master 4228, in attic.
Zenith Silver Sensor, pointing out a window.

Strong signal on the first two, weak/marginal on the Silver Sensor.

Media Center PC: Can't get the new channels (I assume it's looking in the wrong place). Have some timers for tomorrow. Maybe it'll get fixed overnight.

The new channels are there, BUT all the timers using the channels seem to be broken. None of the effected events are showing up on the timer schedule. This could be a pain.

Next morning update: The 622/722 timers seem to have recovered the events overnight (maybe when dish updates the guide data in their side).

Media Center: Standard scan still not working. But, I found instructions for a manual channel add (I didn't realize this was there). Silly GUI, wouldn't it make sense for this to be on the add channel screen ?

http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/using/mce/expert/elsbree_dec2004.mspx#XSLTsection126121120120

(I can't try it till I get home).

8:30 am Mountain time: 9.1, 9.2, 9.3 received OK on two HDTVs, one Zenith DTT901 and one TiVoHD (all OTA northeast Longmont).

7.1 ... No signal on any

I thought I should explore all of the guide errors I see on my Directv Tivo. It is my limited understanding that all of this comes from the Tribune company, but channel mappings may not be part of this. If anyone has thoughts on how to point out errors, I'd love it. I will probably wait a couple of days and then contact the stations.

OTA guide errors:
- lists nonexistant KWGNDT2 2-2 (no impact)
- does not list KGWN 5-2 (can't tune it!)
- wrong channel for KMGH 7-x (can't tune it!)
- lists nonexistant 7-2 (no impact)
- does not list 7-27 (can't tune it!)
- wrong channel for KUSA 9-x (can't tune it!)
- does not list KLWY 27-2 (can't tune it!)
- wrong channel for KRMT 41-1 (tunes 20-1)

Rob T

Equip: CM 4228 in attic (2nd story, shooting thru gable end, not shingles, LOS to LOM), no amp. Using: HR10-250 (HD DirecTiVo), HR20-700 (DirecTV's HD DVR), and an S3 TiVo (HD TiVo made for Cable, but using as OTA only).

I can't see 5-x from here in Erie. Wrong direction and too far w/ current antenna pointing.

My HR10-250 has similar issues as Rob's. I, however, can tune 7-x and 9-x, (did a re-scan) but there is no guide data for these and the guide grid (set to all channels) shows two 7-1 (old freq w/ guide data, new w/o) and two copies of 9-x (same thing).

To contrast, my HR20-700 (after delete all OTA, initial setup OTA) has guide data for 7-1 and 9-1 and properly sees them at their "new" frequencies.

Both of these gets their info and guide data from the same source (satellites). It is odd that one is right while the other is not.

For my S3 TiVo, Same issue on 7-x and 9-x as the HR10. I did a forced connection to the mothership (WAN connection) but all I got was the software update (11c) and no lineup changes.

I have sent in update request to zap2it (same service as the guide data DirecTV and TiVo uses).

As a test, I have set up a same recording on each of the above 3 recorders for shows on 7-1 & 9-1 for next 3 nights (deselecting the old freq in channels I receive lists) ... will force S3 connection before each evening to see if I get an update, hope sats send update. We'll see when they get the updates.

# Matt

And now for the question of whether you can watch VHF channels 7 and 9 with a UHF antenna......

I can watch 7 and 9 with my indoor DB2 antenna in Louisville, but only if the antenna is aimed just right.. .signals strengths are around 50, whereas they were in the 70s before. It looks stable enough for now, but that may change with weather conditions. Perhaps I'll have to get a new antenna or move it higher up or outside.

That's where I'm at. 9-1 is coming in at 65% and 7-1 at 0% on my uhf rig. I could care less about the programming on these channels, was just curious to see if I could get them. I do have a vhf/uhf combo I could use but the uhf half is smaller than my current setup and I really only care about 2-1 4-1 and 31-1 which are all uhf anyway. End result is I lose 2 channels. ;)

I found this to be most interesting, since they didn't move their DTV channel. Apparently, adjacent analog interference was quite significant. This station improved more for you than the 2 VHF moves (+19 vs. +15 and +17).

I remember reading that KTVD was not able to go to full power until this transition happened. I can't remember the reason. So, I don't know for sure, but I believe that KTVD increased their ERP on RF19 last night. Perhaps they couldn't increase power on RF19 until they stopped transmitting on RF20 because of the interference it would have caused on the analog signal.

I'm getting about the same signal levels from my 30 year old Winegard VHF antenna as I was getting from the Winegard 9095 UHF Yagi before the switch.

KUSA is at about 75% and KMGH is around 70% at my location and both seem to be steady and dropout free, but could drop lower as the weather warms and the trees leaf out.

KRMA is still marginal from the RF 47 translator and when they go full power and move their main antenna up on Mt Morrison, I will probably get the RF 18 signal much better than the translator.

When I get a solid lockable signal from KRMA, I will install a Winegard YA 1713 VHF antenna for 7 & 9 and possibly KBDI when they go to VHF.

I'm in a hole behind a 1000 foot ridge 12.4 miles from my house directly in line with the Denver towers.

TV Fool shadowing plot and a Topographic software profile are attached.

KRMT switched their display channel from 40.1 to 41.1 today, which is the correct display channel number.

I'm only about 10 miles away from their tower and 4 blocks away from their studio, but with a Winegard PR-9018 aimed at the LCG tower on LOM and a CM-7777, I don't get a whiff of KRMT-DT on any of my DTV receivers, even my Zenith DTT-900. I get a very snowy and ghosted signal for analog Channel 40. Not that I care to watch the channel, but my M-in-L likes it when she is dog sitting at our house.

I live in northern CO near where I-25 and CO52 intersect. I use a Dish Network 722 receiver.

Yesterday I was able to receive all my local channels OTA just fine. Today I still get them all, with the exception of 9-1, the main KUSA station. I get 9-2, their weather, but not a newly-found-after-scan 9-3.

Both 9-1 and 9-3 show on my guide, but will not tune.

I was led to believe that if I received digital OTA yesterday, I'd get it today without issue. I feel duped!

...just venting for now, but I guess what to do next? If the weather was better I'd probably go tinker with aiming a bit.

Can anyone explain why I'd get 9-2 but not 9-1?

Cheers!

Alcyone

[edit] Made this post a little less ranty after running my channel scan a few more times, I was finally able to pick it up. My receiver also reset itself and may have installed a firmware update. All is well now. Maybe the weather was indeed affecting my scans for the new stations.

8:30 am Mountain time: 9.1, 9.2, 9.3 received OK on two HDTVs, one Zenith DTT901 and one TiVoHD (all OTA northeast Longmont).

7.1 ... No signal on any

This is accomplished with:
In Attic:
Antennas Direct DB8 (for UHF)
TERK tv 55 (for VHF)
joined with Pico Macom UVSJ UHF VHF Band Separator/Combiner
into RG6 cable to 'Home Run Box'

~ 11:00 am Mountain time, I left a phone message at Channel 7 asking about their missing digital signal. I told them we had been receiving 7 analog and 7 digital and today are receiving 9 digital.

I live in northern CO near where I-25 and CO52 intersect. I use a Dish Network 722 receiver.

Yesterday I was able to receive all my local channels OTA just fine. Today I still get them all, with the exception of 9-1, the main KUSA station. I get 9-2, their weather, but not a newly-found-after-scan 9-3.

Both 9-1 and 9-3 show on my guide, but will not tune.

I was led to believe that if I received digital OTA yesterday, I'd get it today without issue. I feel duped!

...just venting for now, but I guess what to do next? If the weather was better I'd probably go tinker with aiming a bit.

Can anyone explain why I'd get 9-2 but not 9-1?

Cheers!

Alcyone

[edit] Made this post a little less ranty after running my channel scan a few more times, I was finally able to pick it up. My receiver also reset itself and may have installed a firmware update. All is well now. Maybe the weather was indeed affecting my scans for the new stations.

What is your antenna setup?

OK, I was wrong. My often expressed fears in this thread about potentially inadequate ERP on the VHF DTV channels here is unfounded. KMGH-DT is at maximum signal strength (or whatever the given meter is measuring) with each of my four ATSC tuners, even after 4 splits. KUSA-DT is reading about 5% less on all receivers (95 out of 100 after 4 splits on my Dish ViP211). That's obviously more than enough for a continuously strong signal even in adverse weather. However it is strange that KUSA-DT is coming in with a lesser signal than KMGH-DT.

My reception for VHF DTV is via my 5-foot, no-name, UHF/VHF combo antenna in my attic without any amplification. That antenna is aimed at the LCG tower on LOM and is at about 10 miles distance from the tower. This unexpectedly strong result for 7 and 9 VHF DTV without amplification will prompt me to do some experimenting with down-grading (and maybe possibly removing completely; after KWGN and KDVR go full power) the amplification I have on my Winegard PR-9018 for UHF. I had previously purchased a Winegard HDP-269 pre-amp to replace my CM-7777, which I know is overpowering some of my signals. The tipping point will be the continued reception of KRMA and KBDI. I plan to get that HDP-269 installed now in the next couple of days.

I had problems doing the "add a channel" routine on 3 of my receivers and simply reverted to doing a full scan of channels on each this morning. My Dish ViP211 was the worst. Even deleting the existing 7-1 and 9-1 before adding in the new 7-1 and 9-1 didn't add them to my channel lists. I saw the signal on 7 and 9, but they didn't go to the list. Re-booting didn't change that. After the full rescan, I still had to re-boot to get the E*-supplied program guide data to show up properly. All is now well though.

Now we just have to wait until "God knows when" for KWGN, KCNC-DT, KRMA, KBDI, and KDVR to get to their final configurations and final ERP levels so we can fine tune our reception setups and be done with this stuff long-term.

What is your antenna setup?

It's a Channel Master 3010 on my rooftop. 9-1 signal was holding around 68% after my most recent and successful channel re-scan this morning. I seem to recall strengths more in the mid 70-percent range in past months, but I didn't pay that much attention honestly.

As I type this and was double-checking signal strength and changing channels, my receiver rebooted again and when it came back, 9-1 was gone (but so were all local OTA.) I forced another reboot and now all OTA is fine again.

I hope this isn't a sign of what's to come! My digital OTA has been very reliable for many months. I thought this transition was supposed to be an improvement in the signal.

Cheers!

Alcyone

[update] Now 7-1 is gone! lol

Can anyone explain why I'd get 9-2 but not 9-1?


Note that packets for all subchannels are intermixed in one transport stream, so if you can get at least one subchannel then the problem is not related to reception issues.

The most likely cause of these type of problems is your tuner/converter box misbehaving, which in many cases can be fixed by rescanning or doing a reset.

The other possibility is that the station is sending bad psip data. But in this situation, where the only thing changing is the RF channel, the transport stream should not be affected, so if the problem didn't exist before it is not likely to be a new problem when moving to a new RF channel.

So, in this case the overwhelming probability is that the problems are confined to your tuner/converter box.

Your problem is most likely your antenna. The CM-3010 is a weak performer, particularly with VHF, at your range from the towers. Even with the available amplifier (don't know if you have one, but at a minimum you should with that antenna), it is at best a marginal performer at distance or in less than perfect reception conditons.

OTA guide errors:
- lists nonexistant KWGNDT2 2-2 (no impact)
- does not list KGWN 5-2 (can't tune it!)
- wrong channel for KMGH 7-x (can't tune it!)
- lists nonexistant 7-2 (no impact)
- does not list 7-27 (can't tune it!)
- wrong channel for KUSA 9-x (can't tune it!)
- does not list KLWY 27-2 (can't tune it!)
- wrong channel for KRMT 41-1 (tunes 20-1)


Hey! It looks like the update was in-flight when I complained - I can tune 7-1, 9-1, 9-2 and 9-3 without issues now. That helps. The other six issues are all still there for me.

Rob T

I remember reading that KTVD was not able to go to full power until this transition happened. I can't remember the reason. So, I don't know for sure, but I believe that KTVD increased their ERP on RF19 last night. Perhaps they couldn't increase power on RF19 until they stopped transmitting on RF20 because of the interference it would have caused on the analog signal.

Or could that have been a total RF radiation limit?

After about 3 years of monitoring this forum I am not real sure what prompted me to join today and post a message, but here it is. I currently have about a 6' combination VHF/UHF antenna pointed south, with a small Rat Shack UHF antenna wired inline about 4' below it pointed north. I have 2 HDTV Receivers, Samsung H260F and Sylvania 6900DTE. I also have 3 Digital to Analog converters, 2 Zenith DTT900s and a Channel Master CM-7000. I have always had great reception from my location and really had no doubt that it would continue or even improve today. Seems that it has improved because the few times that I have had problems are usually with channel 9 in weather like we are having today. The following readings are from this morning at approx. 10:30am off of the CM-7000 which I just added to the TV in my garage last Saturday. It is the longest run with the most splits and yet it picks up KWHD as low as 25% when none of the others even see it.

2 KWGN 100%
4 KCNC 80%
5 KGWN 88%
6 KRMA 48%
7 KMGH 100%
9 KUSA 100%
12 KBDI 100%
14 KTFD 100%
20 KTVD 100%
22 KDVR 100%
25 KDEN 100%
27 KLWY 100%
31 KDVR 100%
41 KRMT 100%
50 Univisi 100%
53 KWHD 28%
59 ION 100%

Your problem is most likely your antenna. The CM-3010 is a weak performer, particularly with VHF, at your range from the towers. Even with the available amplifier (don't know if you have one, but at a minimum you should with that antenna), it is at best a marginal performer at distance or in less than perfect reception conditons.

I hear this. It's old, and was free with my Voom installation (ha!) I don't have the amp. What would you recommend I replace it with? Wind is an issue here as I'm out in the open.

I'm not 100% convinced that my receiver isn't the problem though, based on the above post and the inconsistent behavior I've seen today. As of now I am getting all my OTA except 7-1!

I don't know. If the signal strength is low I can see how it would create some real problems for a DVR...corrupt data and what not. I may be surfing the line between a poor signal and a less-than-perfect receiver design to deal with it.

What is the lowest recommended signal strength for reliable digital OTA? I suppose this depends heavily on the receiver too.

I appreciate your input folks!

Alcyone

After about 3 years of monitoring this forum I am not real sure what prompted me to join today and post a message, but here it is. I currently have about a 6' combination VHF/UHF antenna pointed south, with a small Rat Shack UHF antenna wired inline about 4' below it pointed north. I have 2 HDTV Receivers, Samsung H260F and Sylvania 6900DTE. I also have 3 Digital to Analog converters, 2 Zenith DTT900s and a Channel Master CM-7000. I have always had great reception from my location and really had no doubt that it would continue or even improve today. Seems that it has improved because the few times that I have had problems are usually with channel 9 in weather like we are having today. The following readings are from this morning at approx. 10:30am off of the CM-7000 which I just added to the TV in my garage last Saturday. It is the longest run with the most splits and yet it picks up KWHD as low as 25% when none of the others even see it.

2 KWGN 100%
4 KCNC 80%
5 KGWN 88%
6 KRMA 48%
7 KMGH 100%
9 KUSA 100%
12 KBDI 100%
14 KTFD 100%
20 KTVD 100%
22 KDVR 100%
25 KDEN 100%
27 KLWY 100%
31 KDVR 100%
41 KRMT 100%
50 Univisi 100%
53 KWHD 28%
59 ION 100%

Welcome to the AVS Forum and the Denver OTA HDTV thread. You've got great signal readings. Everything must be just right in yoiur setup. Don't mess with it!

I hear this. It's old, and was free with my Voom installation (ha!) I don't have the amp. What would you recommend I replace it with? Wind is an issue here as I'm out in the open.

I'm not 100% convinced that my receiver isn't the problem though, based on the above post and the inconsistent behavior I've seen today. As of now I am getting all my OTA except 7-1!

I don't know. If the signal strength is low I can see how it would create some real problems for a DVR...corrupt data and what not. I may be surfing the line between a poor signal and a less-than-perfect receiver design to deal with it.

What is the lowest recommended signal strength for reliable digital OTA? I suppose this depends heavily on the receiver too.

I appreciate your input folks!

Alcyone

I had problems with my dish 622 not recognizing ota channels and was advised to delete all local channels and rescan and this fixed my problems.

Note that packets for all subchannels are intermixed in one transport stream, so if you can get at least one subchannel then the problem is not related to reception issues.

The most likely cause of these type of problems is your tuner/converter box misbehaving, which in many cases can be fixed by rescanning or doing a reset.

The other possibility is that the station is sending bad psip data. But in this situation, where the only thing changing is the RF channel, the transport stream should not be affected, so if the problem didn't exist before it is not likely to be a new problem when moving to a new RF channel.

So, in this case the overwhelming probability is that the problems are confined to your tuner/converter box.

I am kind of leaning this way versus antenna now, as I am looking at 9-1, 9-2, and 9-3 coming in just fine, while 7-1 is not! The kicker? 7-27 is coming in just fine it all it's Spanish glory. Earlier today it was 7-1 just fine, and 7-27 out, while 9-2 was in with 9-1 and 9-3 out. I haven't touched the antenna.

Having lived with Dish network receivers for many years I'm never surprised by the types of issues I see. It's a moving target too as they push new firmware and the thing reboots in the wee hours of the night.

Cheers!

Alcyone

I hear this. It's old, and was free with my Voom installation (ha!) I don't have the amp. What would you recommend I replace it with? Wind is an issue here as I'm out in the open.

I'm not 100% convinced that my receiver isn't the problem though, based on the above post and the inconsistent behavior I've seen today. As of now I am getting all my OTA except 7-1!

I don't know. If the signal strength is low I can see how it would create some real problems for a DVR...corrupt data and what not. I may be surfing the line between a poor signal and a less-than-perfect receiver design to deal with it.

What is the lowest recommended signal strength for reliable digital OTA? I suppose this depends heavily on the receiver too.

I appreciate your input folks!

Alcyone

DTV receivers with a signal meter display different things. Some display signal strength, others signal quality, and others a combination of both. I don't know what your receiver is reading. However, a poor signal (strength and/or quality-wise) can affect the receiver's ability to function properly. It may be losing or have corrupted, just enough of the data stream to cause some bizarre results.

As to your antenna, they are a lot of ways you can go, but it is hard to guarantee perfection with any of them. Since you already sometimes get usable DTV signals, you could consider just adding a pre-amp like the Winegard HDP-269. It would be mounted close your antenna with a short piece of coax from your antenna to the pre-amp input. Need to weather seal those connections though or you'll have problems later.

You might also be a candidate for one of the new Antenna Craft HDTV (high-VHF/UHF) antennas. See link.
http://www.antennacraft.net/HBU.html

I don't have any personal experience with those antennas and they are relatively new, so I haven't seen a lot of reports on them. On the plus side, you only have to deal with one antenna and they aren't much of problem in the wind.

A lot of folks up north are using the big CM-4228s. They are UHF antennas that do a fair job of picking up high-VHF. The problem is that if 7 and 9 are your biggest problem, they might provide only a marginal improvement on those channels, while they have serious wind loading problems.

I had problems with my dish 622 not recognizing ota channels and was advised to delete all local channels and rescan and this fixed my problems.

I believe we have a winner here! Thanks for your help!! For the first time today I am getting every OTA channel I expect to see. I guess the ticket is deleting everything before re-scanning.

...and in the spirit of this thread I will share my setup and signal strength:

I-25 and CO52 (Erie/Frederick area)
Dish VIP-722
roof-mounted CM 3010, no amp

2-01=100%
4-01=92%
6-01, 02, 03, 05=64% (6-05 carries black signal)
7-01, 027=69%
9-01, 02, 03=67% (9-03 curling broadcast is acting funny though)
12-01, 02, 03=100%
14-01=94%
20-01=98%
31-01=100%
41-01=73%
50-01=100%

Cheers!

Alcyone

DTV receivers with a signal meter display different things. Some display signal strength, others signal quality, and others a combination of both. I don't know what your receiver is reading. However, a poor signal (strength and/or quality-wise) can affect the receiver's ability to function properly. It may be losing or have corrupted, just enough of the data stream to cause some bizarre results.

As to your antenna, they are a lot of ways you can go, but it is hard to guarantee perfection with any of them. Since you already sometimes get usable DTV signals, you could consider just adding a pre-amp like the Winegard HDP-269. It would be mounted close your antenna with a short piece of coax from your antenna to the pre-amp input. Need to weather seal those connections though or you'll have problems later.

You might also be a candidate for one of the new Antenna Craft HDTV (high-VHF/UHF) antennas. See link.
http://www.antennacraft.net/HBU.html

I don't have any personal experience with those antennas and they are relatively new, so I haven't seen a lot of reports on them. On the plus side, you only have to deal with one antenna and they aren't much of problem in the wind.

A lot of folks up north are using the big CM-4228s. They are UHF antennas that do a fair job of picking up high-VHF. The problem is that if 7 and 9 are your biggest problem, they might provide only a marginal improvement on those channels, while they have serious wind loading problems.

Thanks for taking the time to share all that info!

With regard to the pre, I am curious. Since some of my stations are already at 100%, do I run the risk of "over-amping" those stations when trying to improve reception for the others? Are there any negative side effects to using this? It seems like the simplest solution for me.

I tried to remind TiVo that the channels had changed and was told I could not submit the web form because the site was "Down for Maintenance" until "(None) Pacific Time."

What web form are you talking about? I'm not aware of any web forms for notifying TiVo about channel problems. Could you provide a link?

7-27 is coming in just fine it all it's Spanish glory. Earlier today it was 7-1 just fine, and 7-27 out, while 9-2 was in with 9-1 and 9-3 out.

This sounds, to me, like a low and variable signal. The receiver has to tune the RF frequency and then see what's in it, and if it gets a messed up PIP or if it looks at each subchannel to see if it's good, that might vary from moment to moment. I've seen this with marginal signal with both of my receivers.

No joy for me on KUSA or KMGH with the currently installed RatShack U75R. I get whiffs of the signals, but it's not enough for a lock.

Will try re-connecting the 7777 pre-amp to see if that makes a difference. Otherwise, I'm gonna have to try to get my Channelmaster back...

Since some of my stations are already at 100%, do I run the risk of "over-amping" those stations when trying to improve reception for the others?

Absolutely - if you overload an amplifier, the distortion hurts, and probably more than just the specific channel(s) causing the overload. The Winegard HDP-269 was recommended to me as one of the best for that because it was designed to handle high signal levels. I have one, but it doesn't provide enough gain for me up here in Fort Collins, so I'm not using it. I had another Winegard VHF/UHF preamp that was just not cutting it - the high gain figure appeared to have been undercut by overload, since some channels were not coming in as well as with the older UHF-only preamp I'd wanted to replace. Sometimes overload makes the preamp less sensitive, and that seemed to have been going on for me.

What web form are you talking about? I'm not aware of any web forms for notifying TiVo about channel problems. Could you provide a link?

From TiVo.com ... Support Tab (at top) > Contact Support
lower left quadrant (Channel or Guide Issues) > Channels missing or incorrect in guide
End of trouble shooting document > Report the issue to TiVo.

# Matt

Thanks for taking the time to share all that info!

With regard to the pre, I am curious. Since some of my stations are already at 100%, do I run the risk of "over-amping" those stations when trying to improve reception for the others? Are there any negative side effects to using this? It seems like the simplest solution for me.

Yes, you can overload a signal to your receiver by using a pre-amp on already strong signals. I've never heard of anyone actually damaging equipment via this kind of overload, it just makes the receiver perform poorly and you might lose channels you currently get at 100%.

However, your problem, based on the signal readings in your recent post, seems to be with the VHF DTV channels (7-1 and 9-1). With that situation, you could install a mid-level pre-amp that was VHF-only, to boost 7 and 9 and that wouldn't affect your other channels. Something like a Winegard AP-3700 would serve that purpose.

http://www.winegard.com/kbase/upload/chart29.pdf


However, the Winegard HDP-269 might also work fine since it is only a 12 dB amplification in both VHF and UHF. That's probably low enough that it wouldn't have much affect on your UHF reception, but I can't say that for sure. Others may have direct experience with this pre-amp in a similar situation.

Just an FYI: If you have a newer Sony such as an XBR6 or W4100 & don't get 7 or 9 after doing a digital only rescan which was the case for my dad & I. You'll have to do a complete FULL rescan. Stupid Sonys could not find them doing a digital only scan.

I swapped out my original 50" Winegard UHF Yagi for a 80" VHF/UHF model (Antennacraft HBU22) last week (despite a lot of whining about its appearance from the wife!). I decided not to wait and see if the UHF-only Yagi would get the Hi-VHF signals.
I'm in SW Lafaytte.
Before the transition I was getting 90-95% for KMGH-DT and KUSA-DT on both the UHF-only and VHF+UHF antennas.
Today I'm at 90% for KMGH-DT but only 83% for KUSA-DT. Is KUSA-DT not at full power yet?
I may try switching back to the 50" UHF-only Yagi at the weekend, weather permitting, to see how it fares.
Btw, on my HR10-250, without rescanning or anything, 7-1 and 9-1 are working just as before with picture, guide info, etc. Its as if nothing happened.

Today I'm at 90% for KMGH-DT but only 83% for KUSA-DT. Is KUSA-DT not at full power yet?

Don't complain if you're at 90 and 83. If they're stable readings, that's more than enough headroom to provide reliable reception through just about any kind of adverse weather.

My own experience illustrates the paradox that a station's output power by itself has very little bearing on signal-level meter readings:

KMGH before: 87/100, 37 kW UHF
KMGH after: 72/100, 48 kW VHF

KUSA before: 94/100, 30 kW UHF
KUSA after: 77/100, 44.5 kW VHF

KTVD before: 87/100, 900 kW*
KTVD after: 87/100; 1,000 kW**

* (they went to this ERP after the December antenna mishap)
** (presumably; can't confirm via quick check of FCC records)

All the latest readings are rock steady, and that's even better for reliable reception than a high reading that bounces around a lot, IMO. Might have to tweak the VHF-only Y5-7-13 in the attic a bit to pick up additional points, but I'm not terribly worried about the difference.

Had the opposite thing happen with 7 and 9 than most others -- KMGH scanned right in by about 12:10 last night (albeit with screwy subchannels like 7-3 and 7-7), but had no sign of KUSA, then or this morning, other than about eight subchannels' worth of scrambled PSIP data, even after a full blind scan. Cleared up once I unplugged the receiver, then ran another blind scan.

Next morning update: The 622/722 timers seem to have recovered the events overnight (maybe when dish updates the guide data in their side).

Media Center: Standard scan still not working. But, I found instructions for a manual channel add (I didn't realize this was there). Silly GUI, wouldn't it make sense for this to be on the add channel screen ?

http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/using/mce/expert/elsbree_dec2004.mspx#XSLTsection126121120120

(I can't try it till I get home).

I tried this & it won't let me add 7.1 because it already exsits. There seams to be no way of changing the frequency for it. 9.1 the same thing.

KMGH before: 87/100, 37 kW UHF
KMGH after: 72/100, 48 kW VHF


KMGH should be at 27 KW VHF. They have an application submitted for 48 KW, but it has not been approved yet. That's why I'm still wondering why KMGH is typically stronger at 27 KW than KUSA is at 45 KW.

KMGH should be at 27 KW VHF.

Thanks for correcting that. :o

Don't complain if you're at 90 and 83. If they're stable readings, that's more than enough headroom to provide reliable reception through just about any kind of adverse weather.Not really complaining, just surprised that KUSA is almost 10% lower than KMGH and wondering if perhaps my new antenna has poorer performance for ch 9 than 7. I would have expected it to be the other way round.

I remember reading that KTVD was not able to go to full power until this transition happened. I can't remember the reason. So, I don't know for sure, but I believe that KTVD increased their ERP on RF19 last night. Perhaps they couldn't increase power on RF19 until they stopped transmitting on RF20 because of the interference it would have caused on the analog signal.

According to their license to cover filing, they were operating at 1000kW as of 2/18/09:

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/prefill_and_display.pl?Application_id=1293850&Service=DT&Form_id=2&Facility_id=68581

However, it would make sense that part of the increased signal was from a power increase, but I didn't see an STA for lower power filed after the License to Cover. There was a 900kW STA filed in December, however, which also made mention of 117kW.

If anyone is using a CM4221 or other 4-bay class bow-tie, I would like to see how well those are working. Where I'm at, this antenna seems to do ok for 11-13 for analog, but drops off considerably towards 7.

Thanks,

Don't complain if you're at 90 and 83. If they're stable readings, that's more than enough headroom to provide reliable reception through just about any kind of adverse weather.

My own experience illustrates the paradox that a station's output power by itself has very little bearing on signal-level meter readings:

KMGH before: 87/100, 37 kW UHF
KMGH after: 72/100, 48 kW VHF

KUSA before: 94/100, 30 kW UHF
KUSA after: 77/100, 44.5 kW VHF

KTVD before: 87/100, 900 kW*
KTVD after: 87/100; 1,000 kW**

* (they went to this ERP after the December antenna mishap)
** (presumably; can't confirm via quick check of FCC records)

All the latest readings are rock steady, and that's even better for reliable reception than a high reading that bounces around a lot, IMO. Might have to tweak the VHF-only Y5-7-13 in the attic a bit to pick up additional points, but I'm not terribly worried about the difference.

Had the opposite thing happen with 7 and 9 than most others -- KMGH scanned right in by about 12:10 last night (albeit with screwy subchannels like 7-3 and 7-7), but had no sign of KUSA, then or this morning, other than about eight subchannels' worth of scrambled PSIP data, even after a full blind scan. Cleared up once I unplugged the receiver, then ran another blind scan.

72/100 and 77/100 on a Dish receiver may give you problems under adverse weather conditions. I'm surprised and disappointed to see your report of rather marginal performance from the Y5-7-13. What distance are you from the LCG tower on LOM? Are you pointed directly at it?

I just forced a manual connection to TiVo's servers and Tribune now has KMGH-DT and KUSA-DT properly mapped to the right digital channels.

For whatever reason they didn't bother deleting KMGH and KUSA analog from the channel maps, though.

Regardless, this means that anyone who forces a connection to TiVo's servers should have their programs record properly now.

Is anyone else watching My Name is Earl tonight?

KUSA looks extra bit-starved tonight; any time any character moves their face macroblocks noticeably.

(It's a compression issue, not a signal level issue as it's only on movement.)

Not really complaining, just surprised that KUSA is almost 10% lower than KMGH and wondering if perhaps my new antenna has poorer performance for ch 9 than 7.

Gain curve prolly dips down at channel 9. That would explain it.

72/100 and 77/100 on a Dish receiver may give you problems under adverse weather conditions. I'm surprised and disappointed to see the two reports of rather marginal performance from the Y5-7-13. What distance are you from the LCG tower on LOM? Are you pointed directly at it?

These readings are no big deal on our Envision L26W461. It will display block-free SD DTV video at stable level-meter readings down to 28/100, and as mentioned previously, both of these levels don't move at all.

I'm 23 miles out of LOM with LOS -- as in, if you stood on the peak of my roof, you'd be able to see the tower with the aid of high-powered binoculars. The antenna is in the attic, pointed at KBDI's tower, which is 10 degrees off. No biggie, either. The aim is partially through a dry-walled, taped townhouse party wall. The drywall may be installed over the same foil-lined house sheathing that's in the exterior walls but, given that it is a firewall, I'm a bit hesitant to dig deeper and find out... :eek:

The Y5 may do a bit better when I get up there and turn it so that it's pointing straight through the roof deck, which puts it at 24 degrees away from LOM and 34 degrees off Sqauw. When I did this with my UHF antenna a while back so as to pull in KPXC, KBDI fell by 20 points, but KUSA increased from 85 to 94. Everything else (that I care about) stayed about the same.

(Full disclosure: Both antennas would do a lot better outside. :cool: )

KTVD's analog shutdown had an interesting effect: We're now teetering right on the edge of getting KFCT-DT on the adjacent channel. Before the shutdown, I couldn't even get a whiff of it. KFCT is LOS from here at 73 miles. Not bad for a homemade, attic-mounted rig.

Is anyone else watching My Name is Earl tonight?

KUSA looks extra bit-starved tonight; any time any character moves their face macroblocks noticeably.

(It's a compression issue, not a signal level issue as it's only on movement.)

I see what you mean!

Missed the office... :( :( :(

I'm getting all the channels loud and clear with a CM4228, no amp. No breakup on 9-1, but 9-2 looks like my old beta vcr and 9-3 looks like cell phone video.

I'm getting great reception of now-VHF KMGH and KUSA here in Ft. Collins. 90-ish on the DTVPal DVR. KMGH used to be in the low 60's, and would have minor breakups.

This rain seems to drop the strength of the UHF channels noticeably. Is KTVD having problems? I haven't had too many problems with them before, but it is unwatchable tonight with low signal and breakups, making me wonder if it is more than the rain. I certainly can't detect any increase in signal strength from them.

Mark

Welcome to the Forum!

6 KRMA 48%

Are you receiving KRMA-DT on RF 18 or the Horsetooth translator on RF 47?


Jim McCauley

As other Fort Collins posters have reported, no significant troubles with receiving the switched-over transmissions on RF 7 and RF 9. Now, if I could just figure out how to get out of the signal hole for KRMA-DT's translator on RF 47, I'd be home free. Maybe I'll be able to get it on RF 18 when they get to higher elevation and higher power in May.


Jim McCauley

Is anyone else watching My Name is Earl tonight?

KUSA looks extra bit-starved tonight; any time any character moves their face macroblocks noticeably.

(It's a compression issue, not a signal level issue as it's only on movement.)No problems during Earl but did see a little of that problem on KCNC during Survivor.

I had been hoping for perhaps a little nod to the end of analog for the Denver stations, so I was a little disappointed with the unceremonious end of analog on KUSA and KMGH. But, I decided to record KUSA's evening and morning newscasts just to see if they said anything interesting about it.

I watched the evening broadcast before the transition and they just mentioned that it was going to happen, along with the typical transition information, and an animated short feature done by someone on the KUSA staff.

But the morning news had a lot more. It turns out that they had 4 retired KUSA engineers and one retired KUSA reporter actually push the button to turn off the analog transmitter. The one whose finger actually pushed the button (while the others held his arm) was Glenn Ray, who was the original KUSA engineer that turned on the first KUSA transmitter. I also thought it was interesting that over in the new shared transmitter facility they had an old TV tuned to the analog signal which they used to determine when to start the digital transmitter, i.e. they waited for the snow and then pushed the "on" button.

The Guide now has the wrong frequency for those channels. After manually removing them from the atscchannels.xml and adding them manually channels 9 and 7 work for me. No changes to anything else like antenna or tuners.

Discussed here...
http://thegreenbutton.com/forums/352258/ShowThread.aspx

Manually removing and adding a existing channel
1) Remove channels from the file atscchannels.xml (this is important as you won't be able to do step 2 if the channel i.e. 9-1 already is there)
C:\Users\All Users\Microsoft\eHome\EPG\prefs\atscchannels.xml
This is the file that gets created when you initally setup TV

2) add them using the correct fequency manually
Guide-->Add Missing Channels-->Add DTV Channel
9-1 Frequency 9
7-1 Frequency 7
they will then show up in the
C:\Users\All Users\Microsoft\eHome\EPG\prefs\atscprefs.xm
This is the file that contains manually added channels

The key is to get the correct frequency from some place like antennaweb.org
the frequency for channel 9 is now 9, channel 7 is 7

I haven't seen any reports about rabbit ear reception, so I thought I'd share mine.

I have a digital LCD HDTV in my kitchen that is mounted under a cabinet. I can't get a line from my antenna to it, so I've used just a round wire UHF loop antenna with it. I get all the UHF channels with it, but the 7 & 9 VHF's are a no go. I hooked up an old set of rabbit ears and 9 comes in but 7 is a no go. It looks like the lower ERP of 7 is a problem. Hopefully, 7 will be OK once they maximize ERP.

I wonder if 7 & 9 will report anything about the inquiries they receive after they shut off analog, like reception problems with rabbit ears like I've experienced.

I'm in Green Valley Ranch, up in Denver's northeast corner. Both my newer LCD TVs and my two older sets with digital tuners added are picking up all the channels beautifully, with KUSA coming in at 82, stronger than it's ever been. My Hauppauge hybrid tuner card, however, with Windows Vista 64 Media Center, isn't scanning 7.1 and 9.1 since the transition. Previously, the computer picked up everything seamlessly. I'm still researching the issue, but do these tuner cards assume digital channels are only going to be UHF? Or is the "updated" information coming from Microsoft just not current?

mtbmike509, thanks for the post regarding Windows Media Center.

I just completed my change and was just about to post the info you posted. One thing I might add is that, depending upon your zip code that shows you receive it, WMC users might as well edit KQCK's file. WMC reports it mapping to 33-1, which is not correct and will prevent reception since KQCK has never had proper PSIP info. Users need to change the "major" value from 33 to 11 and also the call sign from KDEV to KQCK.

Juan Calavera:

Follow the directions in mtbmike509's post. You have to manually edit the .xml file the WMC uses since Microsoft's program info hasn't been updated yet. In the alternative, you can probably wait until Microsoft updates its info, but I suspect that won't be until 6-12-09.

I appreciate the responses, milihighmike and mtbmike509 -- sorry I didn't see the previous post. Unfortunately, I don't have that path or, apparently, that .xml file on my machine. I'm running Vista Ultimate 64-bit and I can't find that file, even with hidden files visible.
Can we lobby Microsoft to get their info updated or something?

Thanks for this!!! It worked just fine. I did have to go into edit DTV stations & redo the local affiliate to get the guid data correct. 9-2 & 9-3 show the same data as 9-1 though. Maybe I'll try forcing the guid download. By the way if someone wonders. Widows XP.

Sad thing is the signal srtength really sucks over here in Lakewood on VHF now. Both on MCE & my Sony LCD. It's only in the 50% range now where as before it was & is on the UHF in the mid 80% range.:(

The Guide now has the wrong frequency for those channels. After manually removing them from the atscchannels.xml and adding them manually channels 9 and 7 work for me. No changes to anything else like antenna or tuners.

Discussed here...
http://thegreenbutton.com/forums/352258/ShowThread.aspx

Manually removing and adding a existing channel
1) Remove channels from the file atscchannels.xml (this is important as you won't be able to do step 2 if the channel i.e. 9-1 already is there)
C:\Users\All Users\Microsoft\eHome\EPG\prefs\atscchannels.xml
This is the file that gets created when you initally setup TV

2) add them using the correct fequency manually
Guide-->Add Missing Channels-->Add DTV Channel
9-1 Frequency 9
7-1 Frequency 7
they will then show up in the
C:\Users\All Users\Microsoft\eHome\EPG\prefs\atscprefs.xm
This is the file that contains manually added channels

The key is to get the correct frequency from some place like antennaweb.org
the frequency for channel 9 is now 9, channel 7 is 7

Reading the posts about Tivo and Windows Media Center sure make me happy I went with MythTv. All I did was delete 7 and 9. Rescanned, and it was working like nothing happened.

No breakup on 9-1, but 9-2 looks like my old beta vcr and 9-3 looks like cell phone video.
The worse they look (9-2 and 9-3) the better. We want as many bits as possible reserved for 9-1.

Before the switch, everything fantastic. After, 9.1 is 2-4 bars out of 10. I know it's because of the VHF switch, and if I'm touching the front piece of the antenna I get 2-3 more bars. Not sure what I can do other than be really frustrated. audio blips and tearing are the problems. Going to try an in-line signal booster. Thoughts?
Using this antenna: C1-Clearstream-DTV-antenna from antennasdirect.com

Dumb question here - does the snow actually have an effect on the TV signals? I was getting 7.1 OK until this morning and now it's gone. :confused:

And does anyone else notice problems with the sound on 9.3 at times or is it just me? The picture always seems to be fine, but sometimes the sound will be out for extended periods.

Dumb question here - does the snow actually have an effect on the TV signals? I was getting 7.1 OK until this morning and now it's gone. :confused:

And does anyone else notice problems with the sound on 9.3 at times or is it just me? The picture always seems to be fine, but sometimes the sound will be out for extended periods.

I have the same question. Lost 4,7 and 9 it seems. Every other station was hunky dory. I am not well versed enough to know when they are messing around with things or there is a problem with my setup, although losing all 3 easily suggests the weather has something to do with it.

As other Fort Collins posters have reported, no significant troubles with receiving the switched-over transmissions on RF 7 and RF 9. Now, if I could just figure out how to get out of the signal hole for KRMA-DT's translator on RF 47, I'd be home free. Maybe I'll be able to get it on RF 18 when they get to higher elevation and higher power in May.


Jim McCauley

I also believe that higher antenna placement and power from RF 18 are my only option for consistently receiving KRMA.

For a while Wednesday evening 4/15 and Thursday morning 4/16 the signal from RF 47 was coming in about 70% here, but it has been DOA since Thursday afternoon.

I presently have "0" signal from RF 47 and even with the bad antenna placement and low power, I consistently see around 30% signal from RF 18, just below the level I can lock on to.

Edit:
Added RF 47 Antenna polar plot.
From this plot, it becomes very evident why we in the North to North East sector of Fort Collins have extreme difficulty receiving KRMA from the translator.

My signal strength is way different today than yesterday:

7-1 yesterday was 0, today is 74
9-1 yesterday was 65, today is 75

Go figure, weather related or station related? :confused:

Before the switch, everything fantastic. After, 9.1 is 2-4 bars out of 10. I know it's because of the VHF switch, and if I'm touching the front piece of the antenna I get 2-3 more bars. Not sure what I can do other than be really frustrated. audio blips and tearing are the problems. Going to try an in-line signal booster. Thoughts?
Using this antenna: C1-Clearstream-DTV-antenna from antennasdirect.com

My experience with in-line signal boosters has not been good. I think they generate too much noise to be effective in a weak received signal situation. A real, low-noise, pre-amp might be a better attempt at a solution to your problem.

BTW, did you test your C1 for analog TV reception of analog Channels 7 and 9before the transition? Is so, did you get good reception of analog Channels 7 and 9? Reading the related article in the Denver Post this morning, it appears that many metro-Denver OTA DTV viewers didn't test their antennas using the Channel 7 and 9 analog signals before the transition and were shocked to find that they can't receive digital 7 and 9 now that they are broadcasting from the high-VHF frequency instead of UHF.

My signal strength is way different today than yesterday:

7-1 yesterday was 0, today is 74
9-1 yesterday was 65, today is 75

Go figure, weather related or station related? :confused:

At this moment, mine is the same as yesterday morning (i.e., 7-1 @ 100/100 and 9-1 @ 95/100). I continue to be amazed.

milehighmike mentioned not seeing any reports regarding rabbit ears reception, so I thought I would share mine. Before April 16th, I was receiving both KMGH-DT and KUSA-DT at about 70% signal strength and 100% signal quality. Since then, I am receiving both at about 90% signal strength, but signal quality has dropped to 50-60% which causes video and audio dropouts. Seems like I read somewhere that VHF is more susceptible to interference than UHF. Sounds like that's true. Haven't spent a lot of time on it yet, but I'm hoping that I can move or adjust the antenna to get a little better performance out of it.

Update: After spending a half-hour or so making adjustments, I was finally able to get KMGH at 100% signal quality and KUSA at about 90% signal quality with both of them still at 90% signal strength, so all is well for now. Patience and persistence paid off!

Unfortunately I fell victim to the myth that all DTV would be UHF... I thought, "If I get HDTV OTA now, then I'll get it tomorrow" - Wrong!

I live in the mountains west of Horsetooth Mtn. (West of Fort Collins). I have to point due South to pick up Denver stations and have no option for any other direct due to South-West slope of the mountain I live on. I was able to receive both KUSA-DT & KWGN-DT fine prior to their conversion and move to VHF--I get nothing now.

Even though I have a huge VHF/UHF antenna (RadioShack 15-264--don't buy one!) on my roof, most of the VHF elements have been blown off by the wind over the last year, since I put it up... I cannot receive either channel 7 or 9 now.

So, I guess it's time for a new antenna, again! I'm thinking about a Winegard HD7698P... Any suggestions from anyone else?? :confused:

Thanks for any input!

Mike

So, I guess it's time for a new antenna, again! I'm thinking about a Winegard HD2698P... Any suggestions from anyone else?? :confused:

Thanks for any input!

Mike

I have had a Winegard VHF antenna on my roof for 30 years and I get as strong winds as you. The antenna is is relatively good shape except for the connection box which has sustained several direct hits from large hail.

I would think the HD7698P would do well for you in your location.

Reading the posts about Tivo and Windows Media Center sure make me happy I went with MythTv. All I did was delete 7 and 9. Rescanned, and it was working like nothing happened.

My experience exactly. I'm running MythTV under Ubuntu 8.04; hardware is a ATI HDTV wonder. Despite its reputation as a Windows-only card, the ATI unit is actually working quite well for me.


Jim McCauley

My experience exactly. I'm running MythTV under Ubuntu 8.04; hardware is a ATI HDTV wonder. Despite its reputation as a Windows-only card, the ATI unit is actually working quite well for me.


Jim McCauley

I'm Running mine under openSUSE 10.2 with one cheap ATSC110 and an expensive pcHD5500. The ATSC110 require more setup, but both preform the same.

Sad thing is the signal srtength really sucks over here in Lakewood on VHF now. Both on MCE & my Sony LCD. It's only in the 50% range now where as before it was & is on the UHF in the mid 80% range.:(

At 285 and Sheridan I lost some signal strength on 7-1 and 9-1 as well. My H20 went from 95 to 98 on 9-1 to about 75. 7-1 dropped to about 85 (it was also in the 95+ range before). The Hauppauge 2250 card has a signal quality meter that maxes out a +30 SNR. That is where both 7-1 and 9-1 were pre-transition. Now 9-1 is showing 24.5 with intermittent uncorrectable errors (these cause short picture breakup or stuttering). 7-1 is at about 28, but in half an hour I did not see any uncorrectable errors. I find this a bit strange as I am only about 10 miles from LOM and before the trees leaf out can see the towers from my roof.
BTW, the H20 is using an old RS VU 210 that is currently laying flat on my roof. The 2250 is connected to an RS VU 90 that is on a ten foot pole, above my two story roof, pointed directly at LOM.

I may play with pointing the VU 90 differently at some point, just to see if the VHF lobes might be different than the UHF...or enough different to account for the lower signal quality that I am seeing.

If anyone is using a CM4221 or other 4-bay class bow-tie, I would like to see how well those are working. Where I'm at, this antenna seems to do ok for 11-13 for analog, but drops off considerably towards 7.

Thanks,

Falcon, I'm using a CM4221, and it's picking up 7 and 9 just fine, in fact I'm getting slightly stronger signal than I was before the switch. But, I'm only about 12 miles SW of the tower at about 2nd and Sheridan. BTW, I don't have the screen back installed on my antenna - took it off years ago when I had to pick up signals from downtown and from Lookout, and haven't put it back on...not sure I could even find it anymore.

Before the switch, everything fantastic. After, 9.1 is 2-4 bars out of 10...

Hello, and welcome!

A booster isn't likely to help much, if at all. You're getting more bars when touching the active element housing simply because you're becoming part of the antenna, thus making it larger. Channels 7 and 9 are lower in frequency, so they're longer in wavelength. The longer the wavelength, the larger the antenna needs to be to obtain the same performance. Before 4/16 and after 4/16 wavelengths of the two channels are as follows:

KUSA: 2.03 feet --> 5.21 feet
KMGH: 2.00 feet --> 5.56 feet

The C1 just isn't big enough to receive VHF signals. A booster won't change this because it can't produce signals the antenna doesn't see properly in the first place. I'll presume the C1 is indoors since you mentioned touching it while watching for changes in signal levels. It would be pretty easy and inexpensive to add a pair of rabbit ears to the C1 for VHF reception, as follows:

1. Head over to "Wally World," "Tar-jhay," a dollar store, etc., and look for a cheap pair of rabbit ears. If all else fails, head on over to "ShadioRack" and pick this one up (http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103077&numProdsPerPage=40&retainProdsInSession=1&y=7&x=15), but it's pretty expensive. Make certain the antenna has (or can accept) a round coaxial cable rather than a flat, "twin-lead" cable.

2. Buy a UVSJ band combiner here (http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=UVSJ). It's like a splitter in reverse. They're not sold in B&M stores.

3. The UVSJ's three terminals are labeled for the two bands plus an output connector. Connect coax cable from rabbit ears to the VHF side of UVSJ; connect another coax cable from the C1 to the UHF side of the UVSJ. Run a third coax cable from UVSJ output to TV's antenna terminal.

4. "Flatten" the rabbit ears so they parallel the floor; extend the whips equally so their tips are about 32 inches apart, which is roughly the correct size for both channels. Turn the rabbit ears from side to side to find best reception position.

You'd have a pretty good indoor antenna with a setup like this. It would be better than any VHF/UHF indoor combo you could buy.

Dumb question here - does the snow actually have an effect on the TV signals? ... And does anyone else notice problems with the sound on 9.3 at times or is it just me?

Uh-uh. The only dumb question is the one that never gets asked! ;)

It's not as much the signals as it is your antenna. As this heavy, wet snow piles up on the boom and elements, its water content can temporarily short-circuit contacts or the phasing lines that carry the signals. It's a lot less likely to happen during drier, "champagne-powder" snowfalls in colder temperatures. If this persists after everything dries, though, that probably means water has gotten into a coax connection somewhere outdoors.

The audio is MIA on 9.3 occasionally. Between that and the blocky PQ, I've often wondered why KUSA bothers with the subchannel at all.

I also believe that higher antenna placement and power from RF 18 are my only option for consistently receiving KRMA.
...

Are you able to receive KTFD-DT 14-1 (UHF 15)?
If so, I believe there is some reason to be optimistic.
KRMA-DT is problematic for me, but KTFD-DT is very strong. I am hopeful that things will improve significantly when (and if) KRMA-DT (UHF 18) gets its act cleaned up. I find the KRMA statement low on specifics, and I have not found anything on the FCC database that makes it clear what they propose to do on May 19, but KRMA may be planning to use an antenna at the top of the tower that KTFD-DT broadcasts from, and I think KTFD is about 30 meters down from the top.

Are you able to receive KTFD-DT 14-1 (UHF 15)?

Oh goodness yes - it shows up at 95-100% here at my Fort Collins location.

Rob T

Are you able to receive KTFD-DT 14-1 (UHF 15)?


I receive KTFD very well at around 70% on my Zenith DTT900 box.

I have been able to receive KRMA from the Ice Bridge when the weather was just right. Today I am getting about a 30% signal from the KRMA RF 18 antenna.

I'm quite sure I will be able to receive a strong signal once they move the antenna up the tower and increase their power.

It does appear as if KRMA is going on the tower that KTFD is on even though there is a slight difference in the published coordinates.

I may play with pointing the VU 90 differently at some point, just to see if the VHF lobes might be different than the UHF...or enough different to account for the lower signal quality that I am seeing.

I'll probably piont mine again too when the foot of snow melts off in a couple day.:D

I had posted mid 50% range. I ment low 40's. Today with the snow it's down to 38%.

The one thing I have seen on KUSA on the VHF now that was NOT there before is almost anything that's Red has horizontal lines in it with the edges jagy. I for get what it's really called. My sony rec. is worse than my HTPC rec.

...It does appear as if KRMA is going on the tower that KTFD is on even though there is a slight difference in the published coordinates.
I agree, it seems likely that is where they plan to transmit from, but I would still think they need to file SOMETHING with the FCC. The active CP for 1000KW ERP is in a different location on a tower that is a different height and is for a different antenna than they are currently using. I think that FCC Construction Permit is for a new tower and facility that they got a building permit from JEFCO for on 4/1/08, but I have not seen anything after that about that facility. I have not seen anything that says what antenna they are going to use, but the one they are using has special mounting hardware to attach to a horizontal surface. I would think it might take a while to adapt it to a more traditional tower mount.

I really would think KRMA needs to file SOMETHING with the FCC. Does anyone know?

I really would think KRMA needs to file SOMETHING with the FCC. Does anyone know?

Trip probably knows for sure. I'm fairly certain they need to file something. I think what they have to do is a "Minor Modification to a construct permit" in this case. If so, I believe the FCC responds to those fairly quickly, so maybe KRMA is waiting until they are certain what the final configuration will be.

I thought it had been KRMA's plan to go up on the KTVD tower on Morrison as soon as they shut off analog…

I'm Running mine under openSUSE 10.2 with one cheap ATSC110 and an expensive pcHD5500. The ATSC110 require more setup, but both preform the same.

Let's log another satisfied MythTV user. I'm running it under Slackware with an AirStar-HD5000-PCI and a pcHDTV HD-5500. All of the local stations are coming in fine for me, including 7 and 9.

I can't brag about an easy rescan, however. It's not because I tried a rescan and had problems, it's because I didn't try. When I first started using MythTV a couple of years back it had problems doing channel scans. At that point I learned how to manipulate the channel tables using SQL commands and I've done it that way ever since. A few updates to the dtv_multiplex table the morning after the 7 & 9 switch and I was all set.

I'm sure a rescan would work fine for me these days, but I'm always too chicken to try it.

Mike

Here in northeast Longmont, I have done my morning rescan and still no channel 7!

Before the 7/9 switch, we could receive ..., analog 6, analog 7, digital 7, analog 9, digital 9, ...

After the 7/9 switch, we can receive ..., analog 6, digital 9, ...

What is the problem with digital 7?

I really would think KRMA needs to file SOMETHING with the FCC. Does anyone know?

This is the latest filing I can find (from last August, with further amendments in October). It has not been granted by the FCC as yet:

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/prefill_and_display.pl?Application_id=1272906&Service=DT&Form_id=340&Facility_id=14040

Looking at the old applications from 2003, which have the same coordinates as the CP grant last July and the above, the plan appears to have been to construct a new tower:

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/getattachment_exh.cgi?exhibit_id=139482&formid=340&q_num=5360

The KRMA-DT transmitter site is authorized at Lookout Mountain near Denver, Colorado. Pursuant to a recent decision of the Jefferson County Board of Commissioners, KRMA-DT is now required to locate its proposed transmitter site to a new site being constructed on Mt. Morrison 6.9 km south-southeast of Lookout Mountain. This site will accommodate a number of broadcasters including KRMA-TV, Denver, Colorado (Channel 6); KUVO(FM), Denver, CO (Channel 207C1); and KVOD(FM), Denver, Colorado (Channel 211C1).

At this point, leasing space on another tower would seem to make more sense. Is there no space for them on the LCG/LOM tower or any others? It doesn't seem necessary to build their own now. I also found this comment (bold emphasis added):

THE APPLICATIONS FOR THESE STATIONS ARE PART OF A COORDINATED EFFORT BETWEEN THE STATION LICENSEES AND THE NATIONAL TELECOMMUNICATIONS AND INFORMATION ADMINISTRATION (NTIA) TO RESOLVE ISSUES CONCERNING THE TABLE MOUNTAIN RADIO QUIET ZONE, TO ASSIST IN THE ROLL-OUT OF NONCOMMERCIAL EDUCATIONAL DTV PROGRAMMING IN DENVER, AND TO UTILIZE THE FIRST TOWER APPROVED IN THE DENVER MARKET SINCE THE INCEPTION OF DTV.


They have missed the boat on this, so are they still really planning to build their own?

I also see that the analog KPXC tower is just above it and has the antenna same AGL (26m) as the proposed KRMA facility. After all this it just seems that the coordinates are wrong as others have noted. Even with a NADCON of the NAD27 coords (I really wish the FCC would abandon that system), it shows KRMA a ways down the mountain slope.

Since this storm started (which was about the same time as the April 16th transition/analog shutoff for 7 and 9 and 20), I am getting a much weaker signal from KWGN (2) and KTVD (20). Both have too many breakups to be watchable.

Anyone else see issues? I wonder if 2 is on a backup generator or something, since they seemed to be off completely for awhile.

Mark

Where is KRMA analog 6 actually broadcasting from? It appears that they have their own tower on LOM near the nature center. There is an STA that was filed to keep operating there as a nightlight, after the transition. That must be the site they are being forced to move from by zoning? Is that a separate issue from sCARE?

TV Fool shows KRMA/6 on the KPXC tower on Mt. Morrison, but that doesn't appear to be correct. Though it appears to be a possible destination for KRMA/18's re-location.

There's been some posts about difficulty receiving some of the stations. If you have an outside antenna, I think it's the snow. Channel 9 was breaking up for me yesterday. My antenna was covered in snow, so much so that I couldn't see the individual elements, it was like a stick of white on a pole. I moved the antenna back and forth with my rotor to knock off some of the snow and my reception was back to normal.

Has anybody checked their TVFool reports for pre and post transition? My "pre" channel 9 power was -42.9 dBm, after the switch, it's -32.0. That probably explains why I'm seeing a stronger signal now on 9. Unfortunately, the "pre" channel was changed to the post channel for channel 7, so I can't see what difference there might be for 7. Interestingly, TVFool shows I have line of sight to the KRMA channel 47 translator although I'm 71 miles from it. However, I have no chance to receive it with a dBm of -111.6.

As far as the KRMA situation goes, my only thought is they haven't really done anything "right" in this digital transition, so the confusion over their FCC filings, or lack of same, doesn't surprise me.

Since this storm started (which was about the same time as the April 16th transition/analog shutoff for 7 and 9 and 20), I am getting a much weaker signal from KWGN (2) and KTVD (20). Both have too many breakups to be watchable.

Anyone else see issues? I wonder if 2 is on a backup generator or something, since they seemed to be off completely for awhile.

MarkDuring the heavy snow yesterday afternoon/evening I was unable get KWGN (2-1) at all. Also, KUSA (9-1) was a bit flakey (it had a pre-transition strength of 90+ and a post-transition strength of 80-something).

I still can't get KRMA (6-1). Signal strength on ch. 18 is pulsing in the 0-25% range.

There's been some posts about difficulty receiving some of the stations. If you have an outside antenna, I think it's the snow. Channel 9 was breaking up for me yesterday. My antenna was covered in snow, so much so that I couldn't see the individual elements, it was like a stick of white on a pole. I moved the antenna back and forth with my rotor to knock off some of the snow and my reception was back to normal.

Has anybody checked their TVFool reports for pre and post transition? My "pre" channel 9 power was -42.9 dBm, after the switch, it's -32.0. That probably explains why I'm seeing a stronger signal now on 9. Unfortunately, the "pre" channel was changed to the post channel for channel 7, so I can't see what difference there might be for 7. Interestingly, TVFool shows I have line of sight to the KRMA channel 47 translator although I'm 71 miles from it. However, I have no chance to receive it with a dBm of -111.6.

As far as the KRMA situation goes, my only thought is they haven't really done anything "right" in this digital transition, so the confusion over their FCC filings, or lack of same, doesn't surprise me.

For what it's worth, I live in Ft. Collins and have NEVER been able to get digital KRMA. I installed a new antenna last summer and that allowed me to get all other digital signals from all the other broadcasters. After the digital switch of 7 and 9 on the 16th I had to rescan to get the available channels. Lo and behold I picked up 6.1, 6.2 and 6.3! Marvelous! That was for 24hrs. I now have no signal and I suspect moisture and weather to be the contributing factors. I'm waiting for the sun to shine and see what happens.

For what it's worth, I live in Ft. Collins and have NEVER been able to get digital KRMA. I installed a new antenna last summer and that allowed me to get all other digital signals from all the other broadcasters. After the digital switch of 7 and 9 on the 16th I had to rescan to get the available channels. Lo and behold I picked up 6.1, 6.2 and 6.3! Marvelous! That was for 24hrs. I now have no signal and I suspect moisture and weather to be the contributing factors. I'm waiting for the sun to shine and see what happens.

I suspect you probably tuned RF 47 which is the KRMA translator on the ridge just north of Horsetooth Mountain (that has been up and down for the past couple weeks).

Could you give us your approximate location (a nearby intersection) and tell us something about your antenna (indoors, attic, rooftop & model) and whether you are using a pre-amplifier?

This has been a real adventure for some of us and we can use all the information we can get to try sorting out our own systems.

Thanks,

My earlier problems with KTVD-DT and KWGN-DT seem to be over, with signal levels more-or-less normal again. So, maybe the weather was the main cause. KTVD remains much weaker than the other LCG tower channels, though.

Mark

I have had a Winegard VHF antenna on my roof for 30 years and I get as strong winds as you. The antenna is is relatively good shape except for the connection box which has sustained several direct hits from large hail.

I would think the HD7698P would do well for you in your location.

Thanks jamjar! We clocked the wind at my place as high as 110 mph this past winter. I don't know if the Winegard will be a lot better at keeping itself together, but I am hopeful. I don't mind paying more $$ for a quality product if it works.

I currently use an amplified splitter so my TV, and my 3 HTPC tuners can receive a signal. I am only running 35 feet of RG6 line from the antenna to the splitter and short patch cables from the splitter to the tuners.

Should I use a preamp?

mike

I'm in SW Fort Collins using an attic VHF/UHF antenna with pre-amp.

KTVD is one of my strongest stations, and solid as a rock. No problems during the storm. KWGN was out for several hours, and when it came back it seemed to fluctuate with a little pixelation, which never happened before.

KMGH is much improved after the switch to VHF and very strong. KUSA is about the same strength as it was before the switch -- fairly strong -- on UHF it was ok 99% of the time.

Bill

Thanks jamjar! We clocked the wind at my place as high as 110 mph this past winter. I don't know if the Winegard will be a lot better at keeping itself together, but I am hopeful. I don't mind paying more $$ for a quality product if it works.

I currently use an amplified splitter so my TV, and my 3 HTPC tuners can receive a signal. I am only running 35 feet of RG6 line from the antenna to the splitter and short patch cables from the splitter to the tuners.

Should I use a preamp?

mike

Wow, considering those winds perhaps you should consider going down a step to the HD7697P. Less weight and cross section may help with those kinds of winds. Regardless, you need some good hardware to keep that antenna in place. Considering that you already have kept an antenna from flying away at your location (i.e. the breakage you saw on your existing antenna was due to the antenna construction, not how it was anchored), you probably know what is required (although the HD7698P is almost certainly bigger than your previous antenna).

If you are only feeding four devices (a TV and 3 HTPC tuners) I would go with a quality preamp and get rid of the powered splitter. Get a quality passive 4 way splitter with power pass for the preamp power supply (or hook up the power supply before the splitter, which sounds like it may be workable in your situation, since it sounds like everything is in one place). I'd recommend the CM7777 or CM7778. I just went to a CM7777 and it made a significant difference over my previous preamp, which was already a very good preamp.

Should I use a preamp?

I expect so, but I wonder - from your location, what angle is Horsetooth Mountain at compared to Lookout? If Horsetooth is within your beamwidth, you may get blown out of the water if/when the former KQCK RF 11 starts up again. They have a strong signal.

I echo the recommendation for the CM-7777 and 7778 - I have the latter and it's beautiful for me in SW Fort Collins (near the main post office).

Trip probably knows for sure. I'm fairly certain they need to file something. I think what they have to do is a "Minor Modification to a construct permit" in this case. If so, I believe the FCC responds to those fairly quickly, so maybe KRMA is waiting until they are certain what the final configuration will be.

I think you're right, though I'm not sure. I really haven't studied KRMA very much because it seems like their plans keep changing every time I read up on it here.

- Trip

We clocked the wind at my place as high as 110 mph this past winter.
Should I use a preamp?

mike

Mike,
I have no idea what the wind was here at my location last winter, but I had to replace about 60 sq ft of shingles on my house after one big blow and I have 40 ft tall Austrian Pines on the North and West of my place. I have a Winegard HD 9095P Yagi mounted on a 10 ft mast in a tripod on the roof. That antenna mounts on the mast with the entire 93 inches cantilevered from the back of the antenna facing due South. It just wagged around a bit.

Milner Mountain South of Horsetooth Reservoir is sticking up in my Line-Of-Site so I opted for a really strong antenna. The 9095 is at the top of the mast and the OLD Winegard VHF is a few feet down all feeding into a strong Pre-Amp. The old Winegard VHF will be replaced as soon as I can reliably get KRMA-DT.

Not knowing your precise location, I think the previous posters have pretty well answered the question of a pre-amp.

If you are located in the right place like Redstone Creek or on the West side of Milner Mountain or even North of Masonville, you may have a really good shot at LOS to the Denver towers.

If you give me your coordinates, I can provide a profile of what is between you and the Lake Cedar tower. Also if you go to TVFool.com you can get a listing of stations you might receive and if you attach that here someone can give you really good guidance on how much antenna you need.

EDIT: Sorry I didn't notice your coordinates. I made a profile to the abbreviated coordinates under your screen name and have attached that below. The Lake Cedar tower is on the right and you are at the left. Remember the antennas are approximately 700 feet up the tower above the ground profile shown. Also added TV Fool Radar Plot.

From the profile and your distance of 55 miles, I think you will probably be able to use a much less antenna than we have been discussing.
Regards,

I suspect you probably tuned RF 47 which is the KRMA translator on the ridge just north of Horsetooth Mountain (that has been up and down for the past couple weeks).

Could you give us your approximate location (a nearby intersection) and tell us something about your antenna (indoors, attic, rooftop & model) and whether you are using a pre-amplifier?

This has been a real adventure for some of us and we can use all the information we can get to try sorting out our own systems.

Thanks,

I'm just a few blocks from the intersection of Horsetooth and Lemay near Boltz JH. I have a Channel Master 4228 8-Bay UHF Antenna HDTV Bowtie on the top of my roof with the only unobstructed shot at Lookout Mtn. If I got a signal from the translator up at Horsetooth, it had to be sneaking in from the side :)

I have no rotator or preamp. I just had hopes that the new tower that KRMA announced on their site last month would be on line early. They said May 10th but as I read here, that may not happen either. Oh well.

I'm just a few blocks from the intersection of Horsetooth and Lemay near Boltz JH. I have a Channel Master 4228 8-Bay UHF Antenna HDTV Bowtie on the top of my roof with the only unobstructed shot at Lookout Mtn. If I got a signal from the translator up at Horsetooth, it had to be sneaking in from the side :)

I have no rotator or preamp. I just had hopes that the new tower that KRMA announced on their site last month would be on line early. They said May 10th but as I read here, that may not happen either. Oh well.

OK. I did a little research on the translator issue and my problems seem to coincide with problems others are having in this area. I went to the KRMA site and searched for "antenna" and found a page with comments by viewers up to date as of today the 19th. The title of the page is " Horsetooth Mountain translator now functional". I was unable to post the link since I'm a newbie! Sorry. :)

I'm just a few blocks from the intersection of Horsetooth and Lemay near Boltz JH. I have a Channel Master 4228 8-Bay UHF Antenna HDTV Bowtie on the top of my roof with the only unobstructed shot at Lookout Mtn. If I got a signal from the translator up at Horsetooth, it had to be sneaking in from the side :)

I have no rotator or preamp. I just had hopes that the new tower that KRMA announced on their site last month would be on line early. They said May 10th but as I read here, that may not happen either. Oh well.

You are far enough East that you could easily have picked up KRMA-DT RF18 when thee weather conditions were right.

I think my only real option for KRMA-DT is after they get their new antenna up higher wherever that is and they pump up the power to 1,000kw.

Their Transition Blog (http://www.rmpbs.org/panorama/index.cfm/entry/434/UPDATE:-Our-DTV-transition-plan-) says May 19.

We just got our power back on in Genesee. (40" of snow and no power for 2 days) I have one of those Black & Decker 'Storm Stations'. It's a battery powered portable unit that has lights, power inverter, 12v cigarette outlet etc. Plus is has a multi-band radio that can tune analog TV. That was our only way to monitor the news. We could pickup KCNC TV's analog signal. It was a little crazy being stuck at home in the dark with no TV for 2 days! I hope they make a new 'Storm Station' with a digital tuner! I'm going to write Black & Decker and let them know.

http://ace.imageg.net/graphics/product_images/p2373958reg.jpg

From the Web site (http://www.kbdi.org):

Outage Alert: A public power outage at our main transmitter site has resulted in a loss of service for viewers that receive KBDI via antenna, DirecTV, and Dish Network. Comcast Cable customers are not affected. Generator fuel has been depleted during the two days since the power loss and can’t be replaced until road conditions improve. The IREA power company estimates power will be restored as early as Sunday or as late as Tuesday. We apologize for the inconvenience.

Timing couldn't possibly be worse from their perspective -- KBDI has a pledge drive going on this weekend.

It seems I am like everyone else - lost 7 & 9 on vmc. Can I get someone XML file with new
correct info. I am in highlands ranch.
thanks a lot.

Quick edit. I managed to reset channel 9 and 7 - it is very easy. The file for vista are under C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\eHome\EPG\prefs

I just chnaged the file atscchannels.xml
open it and replace the physical value (=frequency) to 7 (or 9) for the channel with major value 7 (or 9) <channel callsign="KMGH" version="0" physical="7" major="7" />

That's it.

I even added channel major 6 minor 2 and I got some spanish channel. This one went to the file atscprefs.xml
<channel callsign="KRMA-DT2" userAssignedName="KRMA-DT2" version="0" physical="18" major="6" minor="2" />

Does anyone has the complete and up to date list of the chnnels available? I am sure my current file has old errors and I could get newer channels...

Frederic

I'm just a few blocks from the intersection of Horsetooth and Lemay near Boltz JH. I have a Channel Master 4228 8-Bay UHF Antenna HDTV Bowtie on the top of my roof with the only unobstructed shot at Lookout Mtn. If I got a signal from the translator up at Horsetooth, it had to be sneaking in from the side :) I have no rotator or preamp.

I am very close to you - I'm off a bit east of Landings Drive south of Horsetooth. I probably don't have any elevation on you, and I have a CM-4228 as well. I do have a preamp (CM-7778), and it was necessary for my main receiver. I'm getting relatively stable reception of KRMA and KBDI, but would like more margin from both. I do get KRMA's RF 47 from Horsetooth from the side, but there's multipath so my main receiver doesn't like it as well as RF 18 from Lookout.

Rob T

Remember when sCARE proposed all stations go to KBDI's tower site? Many of us would be without TV now.

frederic - glad to hear you were successful in editing your WMC .xml files.

I'll give your request a shot:

KWGN, physical 34, major 2, no additional subchannels
KCNC, physical 35, major 4, no additional subchannels
KRMA, physical 18, major 6, two additional subchannels (6-2 Vme, 6-3 Create)
KMGH, physical 7, major 7, one additional subchannel (7-27 KZCO)
KUSA, physical 9, major 9, two additional subchannels (9-2 WeatherPlus, 9-3 Univeral Sports)
KBDI, physical 38, major 12, two additional subchannels (12-2 and 12-3, they vary in name, one is usually Documentary)
KTFD, physical 15, major 14, no additional subchannels
KTVD, physical 19, major 20, no additional subchannels
KDEN, physical 29, major 25, no additional subchannels
KDVR, physical 32, major 31, no additional subchannels
KRMT, physical 40, major 41, no additional subchannels
KCEC, physical 51, major 50, one additional subchannel that is just a placeholder currently
KWHD, physical 46, major 53, no additional subchannels
KPXC, physical 43, major 59, three additional subchannels (59-2 qubo, 59-3 Life, 59-4 Worshop)
And when it's on the air, KQCK, physical 11, major - it's supposed to be 33 (that's how WMC maps it), but it's always been 11 since the station doesn't generate any PSIP info. You have to edit the WMC file and change the major value to 11. Since the station is on the auction block right now, hopefully the new owner will get the PSIP situation straightened out. From time to time, the station has had one subchannel - I've seen music videos and the Fox network, for example, but I don't believe it had any additional subchannels before it went off the air.

Uh-uh. The only dumb question is the one that never gets asked! ;)

It's not as much the signals as it is your antenna. As this heavy, wet snow piles up on the boom and elements, its water content can temporarily short-circuit contacts or the phasing lines that carry the signals. It's a lot less likely to happen during drier, "champagne-powder" snowfalls in colder temperatures. If this persists after everything dries, though, that probably means water has gotten into a coax connection somewhere outdoors.

The audio is MIA on 9.3 occasionally. Between that and the blocky PQ, I've often wondered why KUSA bothers with the subchannel at all.

Don, actually, my antenna is in my attic. I know it's not the best set-up, but since I'm in Highlands Ranch, I can't have an antenna on my roof according to the covenants. So I guess my question would be "Does the falling snow have an effect on the signal between the tower and the antenna?" :)

BTW, I moved my antenna another few degrees and I'm getting 7 a bit more consistently.

There's been some posts about difficulty receiving some of the stations. If you have an outside antenna, I think it's the snow. Channel 9 was breaking up for me yesterday. My antenna was covered in snow, so much so that I couldn't see the individual elements, it was like a stick of white on a pole. I moved the antenna back and forth with my rotor to knock off some of the snow and my reception was back to normal.


Mike, just curious, how can you have an outdoor antenna if you live in Highlands Ranch? :confused: Mine is in my attic.

Don, actually, my antenna is in my attic. I know it's not the best set-up, but since I'm in Highlands Ranch, I can't have an antenna on my roof according to the covenants.

Such wording in covenants were declared illegal years ago. As long as you control the roof, you can put an antenna on it. Even if you rent the house, you can place an antenna on the roof.

You can only be restricted is if you are in a condo, the roof can be considered common, i.e., not exclusive to you.

There have been many postings in this forum about this very topic.

After you place the antenna on your controlled roof, and someone comes over to say that you can't do that, just tell them that the deed restriction is illegal and to go to the FCC website and look it up and that any lawyer will tell them that is it illegal.

It is amazing how many locations still try and restrict antennas and DBS sat dishes.

MartyD27:

I've had an outside antenna since the fall of 2004. It was the only way to get the coathanger transmitter KMGH had on their building downtown. I haven't looked up our covenants lately, but the last time I did, they were worded in such a manner that I can only describe as, in mathematics, a circular reference.

I never asked for permission, nor did I even advise the Community Association that I was putting up an antenna. I've never heard a word from them. My neighbor 3 doors away also has an antenna, which I helped him install. I also have an omni-directional FM antenna mounted on the same pole under my TV antenna. Technically, the FM antenna can be subject to restrictions, but I'd be willing to bet the Community Association folks don't have the knowledge to differentiate between TV and FM antennas. If they complain, and I don't think they will since it's been there for 4+ years, I'll just say its a TV antenna.

I do have an antenna in my garage also but it's there to feed my WMC on my computer. It has no splits and only about 20 feed of RG-6 cable. I'd have had to split my outside antenna feed a third time and it's already about 125 feet long, so the second antenna was the easiest route to go. Now that the Denver stations are pretty much full power, having the antenna indoors is not as much of a factor as we're only about 16-17 miles and have LOS to LOM. If you'd like to stop by for a look, PM me.

For the FCC rules, which are contained in the Telecommunications Act of 1996 (know as OTARD), go to http://www.fcc.gov/mb/facts/otard.html

Does any one know what the problem is with Channel 7?
I have not been able to get any information via telephone or website.

Before last weeks 'cut over' we could receive 6, 7 and 9 analog as well as 7 and 9 digital.

After the 'cut-over' we continue to receive 6 analog and 9 digital.

I only mention 6 analog for VHF antenna reception indicator.

9 has been flakey over the weekend.
We of course, lost 12 over the weekend.
.
We continue to receive digital channels: 2, 4, 9, 14, 20, 25, 31, 50 & 59.