Denver, CO - OTA [Text View] - Page 25

Don_M

04-20-09, 02:33 PM

As long as you control the roof, you can put an antenna on it. Even if you rent the house, you can place an antenna on the roof.

Not correct. The operative phrases from OTARD are "owns" or "has exclusive control over." Renters don't own the roof over their heads, and no landlord in his/her right mind would grant exclusive control over a roof to tenants. That would be tantamount to saying, "Go ahead and have that beer blast up there with a couple dozen of your BFFs. Here, I'll haul up the pony keg for you!"

OTOH, tenants who have a balcony, patio or other "limited element," such as a fenced-in backyard, can locate an antenna on those places. The owner may continue to insist that no mounting holes be driven into any part of the building, but a mast sunk into a concrete-filled bucket gets around that restriction quite nicely.

You can only be restricted is if you are in a condo, the roof can be considered common, i.e., not exclusive to you.

True if the association owns the roof and decides it doesn't want dishes or antennas; false if you own it.

After you place the antenna on your controlled roof, and someone comes over to say that you can't do that, just tell them that the deed restriction is illegal and to go to the FCC website and look it up and that any lawyer will tell them that is it illegal.

It's not illegal, but rather contrary to FCC regulation. Problem is, Congress never granted the agency enforcement power over HOAs, zoning boards or historic-district commissions. Therefore, there are no real consequences for entities which persist in ignoring OTARD requirements. The only redress for an aggrieved homeowner would be to seek a U.S. District Court injunction against the HOA. Federal litigation -- even that involving straightforward issues such as restraining orders -- doesn't come cheap. That's how stubborn HOAs get away with it.

jr_ota

04-20-09, 02:39 PM

Does any one know what the problem is with Channel 7?
...
We continue to receive digital channels: 2, 4, 9, 14, 20, 25, 31, 50 & 59.

This seems to be an equipment problem on your end, not a signal issue. Do you have a receiver that allows you tune manually, and check signal levels? This would tell you for certain if your having a signal issue. It seems to me that your receiver is somehow still looking for 7.1 on its former channel UHf 17. I'm in south-west Longmont (Niwot) if you would like to borrow a converter box with this capability to help isolate/debug the issue.

I believe you have a much better reception corridor (possibly LOS) than I (2 edge) and I receive 7 now as one of my strongest signals.

jamjar

04-20-09, 03:56 PM

Does any one know what the problem is with Channel 7?
I have not been able to get any information via telephone or website.

Before last weeks 'cut over' we could receive 6, 7 and 9 analog as well as 7 and 9 digital.

After the 'cut-over' we continue to receive 6 analog and 9 digital.

I only mention 6 analog for VHF antenna reception indicator.

I think you have the same situation I have.

My 30 year old Winegard 2 - 13 VHF antenna just doesn't have enough gain to get the signal reliably so we are putting up with a lot of audio dropouts and video blocking right now. I have never gotten 6 analog without a lot of snow and 6 or more layers of ghosting.

I have a new Winegard YA 1713 high VFH antenna on the way, but probably won't be able to get on the roof for a while due to an outpatient back surgery a week and a half ago.

I can deal with it, but the wife just gets all upset when the audio drops too frequently.

milehighmike

04-20-09, 06:46 PM

teledog77

04-20-09, 09:41 PM

kucharsk

04-20-09, 11:19 PM

1) Is my antenna (rated for UHF and VHF as far as I know) good enough to pick up the new station frequencies? My mast mount pre-amp is supposed to amplify up to 82.

The DB8 has historically been primarily a UHF antenna.

Antennas Direct says the antenna now has "Enhanced High VHF performance" but the web site doesn't make it clear what, precisely, that means.

Since KMGH and KUSA are on VHF channels 7 and 9, respectively, a good test might be to see if your tuner can pick up KRMA's analog signal with your antenna.

To add a VHF antenna to your setup, you should use a combiner like this one (http://www.hollandelectronics.com/catalog/catalog.php?product_id=UHF-VHF-SEPERATOR-JOINERJ) or this one (http://www.markertek.com/Product.asp?baseItem=PM-UVSJ&cat=CATV&subcat=&prodClass=RFSPLIT) , though in most cases if you are combining two antennas with little frequency overlap a two-way splitter used "backwards" should also work.

http://www.hollandelectronics.com/catalog/upload_image/1197312940UVSJ.jpghttp://www.markertek.com/productImage/BIG/PM-UVSJ.JPG

milehighmike

04-20-09, 11:25 PM

GUI1955

04-20-09, 11:42 PM

teledog77:

In Vista, in your root drive, assuming it's C:\, go to:
C:\Users\All Users\Microsoft\eHome\EPG\prefs. You'll find the two .xml files. Open the files in Notepad, edit them as necessary (per previous posts), and resave them.

In Vista, I found the files in C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\eHome\EPG\prefs, but maybe it's really the same place. In any case, I think by default, both folders are hidden, so you'll need to either show hidden files, or go to start/windows menu, and in the "Start search" field just type C:\ProgramData and hit enter. Then you can browse ti find the needed folder.

Just editing the atscchannels.xml file with the new frequencies didn't seem to do the trick for me. But once I followed mtbmike509's directions by actually deleting the lines from the XML file and then manually adding the channels through media center, I now have both channels back. Thanks!

Manually removing and adding a existing channel
1) Remove channels from the file atscchannels.xml (this is important as you won't be able to do step 2 if the channel i.e. 9-1 already is there)
C:\Users\All Users\Microsoft\eHome\EPG\prefs\atscchannels.xml
This is the file that gets created when you initally setup TV

2) add them using the correct fequency manually
Guide-->Add Missing Channels-->Add DTV Channel
9-1 Frequency 9
7-1 Frequency 7
they will then show up in the
C:\Users\All Users\Microsoft\eHome\EPG\prefs\atscprefs.xm
This is the file that contains manually added channels

The key is to get the correct frequency from some place like antennaweb.org
the frequency for channel 9 is now 9, channel 7 is 7

jsmar

04-20-09, 11:46 PM

All of this is confusing to me. I live in FC (80528) and I've got a DB8 antenna in my attic. I have a pre-amp hooked up to it which is not really needed (overkill!) and a hauppauge 2250 card. Until last week, I had channels 7 and 9 coming in clear as a bell. Now, I don't get those channels. I've read several threads that say you need to edit your atscchannels.xml and re-scan. Trouble is, I'm running Vista 32 and I don't have an atscchannels.xml. I don't even have the root directory it's contained in. Can someone smarter than I please summarize for me:

1) Is my antenna (rated for UHF and VHF as far as I know) good enough to pick up the new station frequencies? My mast mount pre-amp is supposed to amplify up to 82.
2) If no, what's a low cost solution to pick up the channels on the new frequency? Could I add a combiner and a VHF antenna?
2) What do I need to do to re-map the channels correctly given that my atscchannels.xml is non existant?

Thanks in advance for the advice!
-Bryan

Your antenna is a UHF only antenna. The new "redesigned for 2009" version supposedly adds some high VHF capability, but you probably have the older one, and its doubtful that the newer one (which is actually worse than the old one for UHF frequencies) would be good enough to get KMGH and KUSA when it is installed indoors. But obviously you should get your software problems straightened out before you spend any money trying to improve the situation.

What is the make and model number of your preamp? It may be designed to go up to channel 82, but what is important is what it is designed to go down to. Some preamps are UHF only, in which case even if the DB8 was able to pull in the high VHF channels the preamp would filter out them out.

You say you don't need the preamp. Have you tried seeing what happens without it? How long of a run do you have from your antenna to your Windows Media Center PC? Do you have any splitters in the line? Is the cable running between the antenna and your tuner a high quality RG6 cable? If you have a reasonably short run and you don't have any splitters then an antenna preamp might not be necessary. But in most situations, an attic antenna that is 50-60 miles from the transmitter typically can benefit from a quality antenna preamp.

rthurlow

04-21-09, 12:11 AM

I currently have a roof mounted CM 3021 (predecessor to 4221) 4 bay screen and bowtie UHF antenna with a CM 7775 UHF pre-amp. The set-up is split to go to 3 different locations. Naturally, I lost the signals from 9 and 7 after the switch back to their VHF frequencies. What are my chances of reacquiring 9 and 7 if I replace the 7775 with a CM 7778 UHF/VHF preamp and keep the same antenna?

I did exactly this up here in Fort Collins, and I am very happy with the results. I've never been completely sure I could tell that the CM-7778 lost anything on UHF compares to the 7775, and it's got plenty of gain on VHF for 7 & 9 (and should be less prone to overload than the CM-7777). I also got it as an open box deal from Solid Signal, so it's felt like a great choice in every way.

Rob T

JMartinko

04-21-09, 12:32 AM

As one of the older-timers around here (certainly not the longest), you may not know that this thread is the third (or maybe fourth) on the Denver OTA situation. Many hundred more pages were devoted to SCARE and the ridiculous digital situation in Denver starting in 2000 or 2001.

My favorite post of all time was Ernie's "picture" of the Channel 7 digital "coat hanger" antenna on top of their short building. I still laugh thinking about that! Maybe it is archived on AVS or Ernie could repost his original post. It typifies how absolutely screwed up Denver was compared to other major cities.

"this thread is the third (or maybe fourth) on the Denver OTA situation."
Might even be the tenth, but then who was counting in those days, it was all sooooo much fun. I think when this thread was started I was barely old enough to know my math tables, and I still had a full head of hair.
:)

"My favorite post of all time was Ernie's "picture" of the Channel 7 digital "coat hanger" antenna on top of their short building."

Someone really should resurrect that picture, it was one of the funniest things I have ever seen, and it made such a great point about the 15 people who could pick up KMGH HD in those days.

I don't visit this thread much any more, but it really is amazing to think we finally are almost there. Congratulations to all of Denver and especially to all of the folks here who put in so much time to help make it happen.
:)

lantzbotz

04-21-09, 12:51 AM

mrvideo

04-21-09, 01:12 AM

..if I keep it small, I think I can continue to operate without drawing the ire of my neighbors.

A high-gain, directional, VHF antenna is going to be larger. It is the nature of the beast.

To be blunt, the neighbors be damned. You have every right to put up an antenna that will get you what you need. You don't want cable/DBS, as OTA is the way you want to go (I do not have cable or DBS either).

I have a high gain antenna (which I will be replacing as the initial reason for getting it vanished, as the station moved to town and I don't watch them because I get their network video via other means :D ). and a 10' C band dish in the back yard (which can't be seen from the front (just worked out that way) and a 12' C/Ku band dish that is at the roof line and can be partially seen from the street.

No one has ever said anything about any of the antennas. One next-door neighbor, now deceased, asked once if I could get anything with the 10' (before I put up the 12').

Put up what you need, don't let what you think your neighbors might say stop you.

DennisMileHi

04-21-09, 01:16 AM

MartyD27

04-21-09, 01:40 AM

milehighmike, mrvideo, and Don_M,

Thanks guys for your input on my antenna questions and situation. I appreciate your feedback. Channel 7 is still keeping a pretty decent signal for me over the past few days so maybe my minor adjustments will be enough.

jsmar

04-21-09, 02:01 AM

I live in Windsor, CO - about 10 miles east of Fort Collins. I currently have an Antennas Direct DB4 mounted on the roof. When I installed the antenna last summer, I was able to pick up the HD Signals for 2.1, 4.1, 20.1, 22.1 and a few others. 7.1 teased me for a month or so (came in at night but had problems during the day) but eventually was gone for good. I was "hoping" (read: praying) that when the April 16 switch happened I would magically get 7.1 and 9.1. To no one's surprise on this forum, it didn't happen. Trying to figure out what to do next. Options I can think of include:

Option 1) Buy a VHF only antenna, a UHF/VHF combiner, possibly a pre-amp, and add it to the DB4 already in place. Does anyone have any advice on a good VHF only antenna with as small of footprint as possible...with the 50+ mile range I require? ...if I keep it small, I think I can continue to operate without drawing the ire of my neighbors.

Option 2) Take a chance on the Antennas Direct CLEARSTREAM4, which is "advertised" to get better high freq VHF reception and a pre-amp - and likewise replace the DB4 currently installed. Has anyone in the area tried the CLEARSTREAM4?

Obviously, if there's any else in Windsor who has a working setup, I'd love to know what you did.

Thanks.

Don't trust the advertisements, look for reviews. I think you'll find that the Clearstream4 doesn't work very well for VHF at long distances.

I recently installed an AntennaCraft Y5-7-13, which is a 5ft (relatively small) VHF high antenna. It costs about $23 from Solid Signal (plus shipping). You'll spend a lot more on the mounting hardware and a good preamp. I went with the CM7777 since it had the best noise figure and gain that was similar to my previous preamp. It also has separate inputs for a UHF and a VHF antenna. But the CM7778 may work just as well for you. It has lower gain, but it should be more than enough. You'll also need a UVSJ (UHF/VHF signal combiner) since the CM7778 doesn't have separate inputs.

My thinking was the same as yours, i.e. I wanted something as unobtrusive as possible. I figured that I was going to pay a lot more for the rest of the hardware, and that same hardware setup would work for a bigger antenna. Therefore, if the Y5-7-13 didn't work well enough then I could just get something bigger and only be out ~$25 for the experiment, and most of the work would have already been done to install the antenna (wiring, grounding, antenna mount, etc.).

Anyway, the Y5-7-13 is working great for me, and you are probably only a few miles different in distance to Lookout Mountain (I'm in southwest Fort Collins). It's not as high quality as a Winegard antenna as far as construction goes, but Winegard discontinued their equivalent antenna (the YA 6713). I would definitely recommend the Y5-7-13, as long as you use it with a good preamp. If it doesn't work you can jump up to the 8.5 ft long Winegard YA 1713.

Note that if you mount another antenna on the same mast as the DB4 you should separate them (which means you may need a taller mast), because they can interfere with each other (but you can experiment to see if it really makes a difference for you).

ProjectSHO89

04-21-09, 06:39 AM

Does any one know what the problem is with Channel 7?
I have not been able to get any information via telephone or website.

Before last weeks 'cut over' we could receive 6, 7 and 9 analog as well as 7 and 9 digital.

After the 'cut-over' we continue to receive 6 analog and 9 digital.

I only mention 6 analog for VHF antenna reception indicator.

9 has been flakey over the weekend.
We of course, lost 12 over the weekend.
.
We continue to receive digital channels: 2, 4, 9, 14, 20, 25, 31, 50 & 59.

7 & 9 went back to those channels for digital last week. Channel 6 analog is on a different band - doesn't much apply.

Both stations are pushing far, far less power now then they did on the UHF digital channels up until Thursday. That means you'll need to address your high-VHF antenna performance (or lack there-of). Scroll back a page or two in this thread for previous discussions since the 16th.

JMartinko

04-21-09, 09:45 AM

Here is the coat hanger post from 2003:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=2167157&postcount=4352

Just looked at it again. It wasn't Ernie, it was Jetlag. You would guess this would come from an airline pilot!!

I thought I remembered someone other than Ernie posting that, but wasn't sure. Thanks for spending the time to find it. How long did that search take?

For those of you new here, at the time that picture was 'taken' KMGH had a low power signal that was only receivable for about 5 miles and also only south and southeast of the studio. Nothing to the north or west due to buildings and land contour. The bragged about being the first station on the air in HD, but only about 10 people in the forum could see the signal from them.

cia_viewer

04-21-09, 09:52 AM

There is no problem with Channel 7. You just can't receive it. You mention that 9 has been flakey also, which indicates that your setup just isn't capable of receiving 7 & 9 reliably. You say that you can receive 6 analog, but how good is the picture? My guess is that it is not perfectly clear.

You are probably going to have to upgrade your antenna setup before you can get 7 & 9 reliably. You could wait to see in KMGH's request to go from 27KW ERP to 48 KW ERP is approved, but that would just put it in the ballpark of KUSA (45 KW ERP). At that point you might get KMGH about as reliably as KUSA, so you still would probably want to do something to improve your reception.

I did a signal strength scan with my TiVo-HD, this morning:

(34) 2.1 KWGN-DT 100
(35) 4.1 KCNC-DT 91
(18) 6.1 KRMA-DT 0
(7) 7.1 KMGH-DT 0-33
(9) 9.1 KUSA-DT 60
(38)12.1 KBDI-DTV 50
(15)14.1 KTFD-DT 81
(19)20.1 KTVD-DT 95
(21)22.1 KFCT-DT 0-30
(29)25.1 KDEN-DT 68
(29)29.3 ????-DT 68
(32)31.1 KDVR-DT 81
(19)41.1 ????-DT 97
(51)50.1 KCEC-DT 85
(43)59.1 KPXC-DT 72

My antenna system is In Attic:
Antennas Direct DB8 (for UHF)
TERK tv 55 (for VHF)
joined with Pico Macom UVSJ UHF VHF Band Separator/Combiner
into RG6 cable to 'Home Run Box'

At this point the only 'problem' stations are 6-1 (Ice Bridge) and 7-1 (???)
The flakeyness of channel 9 was on and before the weekend with (I suppose) some left over snow.

Iwanthd

04-21-09, 10:47 AM

I did exactly this up here in Fort Collins, and I am very happy with the results. I've never been completely sure I could tell that the CM-7778 lost anything on UHF compares to the 7775, and it's got plenty of gain on VHF for 7 & 9 (and should be less prone to overload than the CM-7777). I also got it as an open box deal from Solid Signal, so it's felt like a great choice in every way.

Rob T

Thanks rthurlow. What kind of antenna do you have?

Jetlag

04-21-09, 11:41 AM

CEB II

04-21-09, 11:46 AM

I did a signal strength scan with my TiVo-HD, this morning:

(34) 2.1 KWGN-DT 100
(35) 4.1 KCNC-DT 91
(18) 6.1 KRMA-DT 0
(7) 7.1 KMGH-DT 0-33
(9) 9.1 KUSA-DT 60
(38)12.1 KBDI-DTV 50
(15)14.1 KTFD-DT 81
(19)20.1 KTVD-DT 95
(21)22.1 KFCT-DT 0-30
(29)25.1 KDEN-DT 68
(29)29.3 ????-DT 68
(32)31.1 KDVR-DT 81
(19)41.1 ????-DT 97
(51)50.1 KCEC-DT 85
(43)59.1 KPXC-DT 72

My antenna system is In Attic:
Antennas Direct DB8 (for UHF)
TERK tv 55 (for VHF)
joined with Pico Macom UVSJ UHF VHF Band Separator/Combiner
into RG6 cable to 'Home Run Box'

At this point the only 'problem' stations are 6-1 (Ice Bridge) and 7-1 (???)
The flakeyness of channel 9 was on and before the weekend with (I suppose) some left over snow.

IMHO, I think your problem with Channel 7-1 DTV is your Terk antenna. How well did you receive Channels 7 and 9 analog before the transition? No snow, solid colors, minimal ghosts? If not, again it points to the Terk. Those Terks have received many bad reviews on-line, so they are suspect. Also, it is an amplified antenna and, at your distance from LOM, you may not need amplification for VHF. The Terk amplifier, which is reputedly very noisy, may be screwing up the digital signals for 7-1 and somewhat for 9-1.

Is there a way to run the Terk with the amp off? If so, give it a try. Otherwise, if I were you I'd be looking for a better VHF antenna.

Don_M

04-21-09, 12:39 PM

Posted by Don_M:

It's not illegal, but rather contrary to FCC regulation. Problem is, Congress never granted the agency enforcement power over HOAs, zoning boards or historic-district commissions. Therefore, there are no real consequences for entities which persist in ignoring OTARD requirements. The only redress for an aggrieved homeowner would be to seek a U.S. District Court injunction against the HOA. Federal litigation -- even that involving straightforward issues such as restraining orders -- doesn't come cheap. That's how stubborn HOAs get away with it.

You need to visit the OTARD section of the FCC web site and read some of the proceedings that have taken place over the years. Then, I'd advise you edit your post.

I'll absolutely do so, just as soon as you provide any citation(s) from the Communications Act of 1934, as amended, or the Communications Act of 1996, granting the FCC statutory authority to levy fines or forfeitures upon entities principally engaged in activities other than electronic communications. I'd also request that you cite any Memorandum Opinion and Order or Declaratory Ruling in which an HOA or municipal body has been fined an explicit amount, or been ordered to forfeit a specific sum, by the Commission.

Otherwise, I stand by what I've written.

kenavs

04-21-09, 03:07 PM

jamjar

04-21-09, 03:24 PM

It's not illegal, but rather contrary to FCC regulation. Problem is, Congress never granted the agency enforcement power over HOAs, zoning boards or historic-district commissions. Therefore, there are no real consequences for entities which persist in ignoring OTARD requirements. The only redress for an aggrieved homeowner would be to seek a U.S. District Court injunction against the HOA. Federal litigation -- even that involving straightforward issues such as restraining orders -- doesn't come cheap. That's how stubborn HOAs get away with it.

I'll absolutely do so, just as soon as you provide any citation(s) from the Communications Act of 1934, as amended, or the Communications Act of 1996, granting the FCC statutory authority to levy fines or forfeitures upon entities principally engaged in activities other than electronic communications. I'd also request that you cite any Memorandum Opinion and Order or Declaratory Ruling in which an HOA or municipal body has been fined an explicit amount, or been ordered to forfeit a specific sum, by the Commission.

Otherwise, I stand by what I've written.

Apparently, you are an attorney or at least you play one on the internet!

Therefore, could you please explain to those of us who are less informed just exactly what the stubborn HOA can LEGALLY do to prevent a homeowner from LEGALLY installing a LEGAL antenna on his property?

A. Illegally trespass on said property to:
1. Physically prevent installation.
2. Remove a legal antenna.
B. Illegally harass homeowner from the street or at any other time or location.
C. Obtain a restraining order preventing homeowner from legally installing a legal antenna.

I just do not see what option a HOA might exercise to prevent a homeowner from doing what Federal law says can be done.

RonAuger

04-21-09, 04:13 PM

Here is the coat hanger post from 2003:
Has it really been that long! My, how a decade can fly by!

... could you please explain to those of us who are less informed just exactly what the stubborn HOA can LEGALLY do to prevent a homeowner from LEGALLY installing a LEGAL antenna on his property?Nothing.

BTW - I heard KRMA-DT will move to KTVD's analog tower on Mt Morrison next month. They expect to be full power by the end of May (and with their track record, one should ask "What year?")

Don_M

04-21-09, 05:13 PM

Nah, jamjar, I just play one on the Internet... but I have read both communications acts as well as orders and decisions listed on the OTARD page. I repeat: FCC has no authority to impose a fine on an HOA, and there's no record of any fine ever having been imposed by the FCC against an association. This is a simple statement with a very narrow meaning.

Even though the FCC lacks these remedies, that hardly means OTARD and the related hearing process are toothless tigers:

* The HOA that blows off an OTARD hearing is the HOA that gets its restrictions invalidated automatically, with no recourse at all.

* The HOA that shows up has to hire a representative well versed in such administrative hearings. That usually means a real, honest-to-goodness, and expensive, Washington lawyer. Win or lose, not many HOAs have the money to appeal an issue like this to the courts after paying for representation at an OTARD hearing. OTOH, the aggrieved homeowner isn't obligated to retain counsel; a reasonably articulate person should be able to state the circumstances of their situation in writing well enough without one.

* As you seem to suggest, the HOA would have no right to enter onto private property for the purpose of physically removing a legal dish or antenna, or preventing installation, or humiliating a homeowner -- particularly in a case that had been the subject of a proceeding before the FCC and a matter of written record. Those are crimes called trespass, theft, assault and harassment. Also, the rule clearly allows a homeowner to retain the installation at issue while both sides await the FCC's decision on the validity of the rules/covenants.

* The HOA would have absolutely no standing to get a restraining order. That would be the sole province of a homeowner who won such a case. (Big point I neglected to mention yesterday in error: Here, the homeowner would have every reason to seek not only HOA compliance with the FCC decision, but also reimbursement from the HOA for legal costs involved in having to seek an injunction to assert his/her rights. There are those mounting costs again...)

OTARD is a civil matter. The lack of explicit fines doesn't make it or the FCC irrelevant. The expense involved means the great majority of HOAs aren't going to push the matter beyond the point of losing such a decision.

I will plead guilty to bringing up a rather far-fetched scenario, if you like!

cia_viewer

04-21-09, 05:42 PM

I know that KBDI-DT lost power over the weekend. I read their notice, which they have taken down. I presume that means they are back on commercial power.

I am currently having more trouble than usual receiving it. I have been told that my location is shadowed by Mt Tom, but I have been receiving KBDI-DT almost all of the time, for quite some time. I think it has been pretty good for over a year. The current signal seems to be much weaker than it was a week ago. In my situation, that may be atmospherics, but I am curious if anyone with LOS can say whether they have observed a change in KBDI-DT signal strength from a week ago.

In January and February, I got 64. Today I get 50!

cia_viewer

04-21-09, 06:03 PM

IMHO, I think your problem with Channel 7-1 DTV is your Terk antenna. How well did you receive Channels 7 and 9 analog before the transition? No snow, solid colors, minimal ghosts? If not, again it points to the Terk. Those Terks have received many bad reviews on-line, so they are suspect. Also, it is an amplified antenna and, at your distance from LOM, you may not need amplification for VHF. The Terk amplifier, which is reputedly very noisy, may be screwing up the digital signals for 7-1 and somewhat for 9-1.

Is there a way to run the Terk with the amp off? If so, give it a try. Otherwise, if I were you I'd be looking for a better VHF antenna.

If you mean by 'amplifier' the little dongle, it has been on some shelf, somewhere, for a long time!

The Terk is aimed to pick up analog 6. It does that quite well.

Attached is a picture.

Maybe after 7 boosts its power AND 6-DTV moves from the ice bridge to the tower, I can re-aim the Terk to better pick up 7 and 9.

6 is my news, 7 is her news. 9 is our figure skating.

rthurlow

04-21-09, 07:09 PM

But the CM7778 may work just as well for you. It has lower gain, but it should be more than enough. You'll also need a UVSJ (UHF/VHF signal combiner) since the CM7778 doesn't have separate inputs.

jsmar, I have one in use, and the 7778 does have separate VHF and UHF inputs.
It can also accept a combined signal; the switch is inside the box.

Rob T

rthurlow

04-21-09, 07:12 PM

I live in Windsor, CO - about 10 miles east of Fort Collins.

If you get to the point of buying an antenna, I've been very pleased with the Channel Master 4228 - I'm doing just fine on 7 & 9 with a CM-7778 preamp, and I even get some reception of tough stuff like KRMT and KWHD here in Fort Collins.

Rob T

rthurlow

04-21-09, 07:14 PM

Thanks rthurlow. What kind of antenna do you have?

You've probably seen this since, but it's the CM4228 8-bowtie job.

rthurlow

04-21-09, 07:21 PM

Rick313

04-21-09, 07:44 PM

Does any one know what the problem is with Channel 7?

If you mean by 'amplifier' the little dongle, it has been on some shelf, somewhere, for a long time!

Sounds to me like your problem is that you're not using the TV55 as it was designed. The dongle, as you call it, is the power injector for the TV55's internal amplifier. Even if you don't require amplification, you must use the power injector to enable the antenna to function properly. Without it, your reception will be seriously undermined.

pkeegan

04-21-09, 08:43 PM

I installed an Antennas Direct Lacrosse antenna at my Mom's house in Littleton near Broadway and Arapahoe Rd. on an existing unused J post mount (left over from a abandoned Direct TV antenna). After Wednesday it picked up 7.1 and 9.1 but both were relatively week. I don't blame the antenna as it is aimed through the garage wall, through the house toward Lookout Mountain. I don't want to move the antenna so I picked up a simple $20 passive Radio Shack UHF/VHF rabbit ears type antenna and it works great! I will probably move the antenna to the garage, where I have RG6 cabling from the Lacrosse to the main TV, so it will be out of site.

milehighmike

04-21-09, 09:57 PM

The following post, broken down into sections, was originally posted by Don_M:
It's not illegal, but rather contrary to FCC regulation.
You're stating that, in the situation involving HOA's, that if an HOA isn't following an FCC regulation, by trying to enforce a convenant restriction that is not legally enforceable, that the HOA is not in violation of law? Of course they are. That's why, when taken to task by homeownders, HOA's lose, and the basis for that loss is an FCC regulation. Just because an unenforceable HOA rule/covenant isn't challenged doesn't mean it's not illegal. Something is either legal or illegal, there is no gray area.
Problem is, Congress never granted the agency enforcement power over HOAs, zoning boards or historic-district commissions.
Really. Here's an excerpt from one of the proceedings that came before the FCC:
From Declaratory Ruling, Michael and Alexandra Pinter, DA 04-2839, released September 1, 2004:
The Rule provides that parties who are affected by antenna restrictions may petition the Commission to determine if the restrictions are permissible or prohibited by the Rule. The Rule places the burden of demonstrating that a challenged restriction complies with the Rule on the party seeking to impose the restriction. In addition, no attorney’s fees, fines, or other penalties shall accrue against an antenna user while a proceeding to determine validity of a restriction is pending.
That sounds like enforcement to me.

Back to the Don_M post:
Therefore, there are no real consequences for entities which persist in ignoring OTARD requirements. The only redress for an aggrieved homeowner would be to seek a U.S. District Court injunction against the HOA. (Emphasis provided)
ONLY redress? Any aggrevieved homeowner, as prescribed by FCC regulations, presents the dispute with the HOA for resolution by proceedings before the FCC, as per the cite above, not US District Court.
Federal litigation -- even that involving straightforward issues such as restraining orders -- doesn't come cheap. That's how stubborn HOAs get away with it.
Once again, there isn't any federal litigation involved. And restraining orders, well, let's not even go there. IMO, stubborn HOA's don't get away with it. HOA's continue to write unenforceable, illegal provisions in their covenants to discourage folks, from, in this case, installing TV antennas or because they have poor legal counsel.

Your later posts have clarified what I hope you were intending to say originally. But when you make statements that violating FCC rules is not illegal, that the FCC has no enforcement authority, or that the only remedy available for homeowners is federal district court, then I take issue and I stand by my original critique of your post. The principle reason I take issue with that post is that new forum members that may, for example, be having a dispute with their HOA, would be receiving some poor, inaccurate advice.

lsilvest

04-21-09, 10:43 PM

My daughter is moving into an apartment in Longmont that has no cable access, and cannot put up an outdoor antennae or a dish.

Is anyone in that area using an indoor antennae that picks up Denver stations?

kenavs

04-21-09, 11:46 PM

Agreed on much weaker - my main receiver (HR10-250) can't lock on at all now. On my other receiver, I used to see 70% for KBDI compared to 65% for KRMA, and I was seeing more like 55% earlier (and nothing now). I'd say it didn't come back the same after the weekend.

Rob T
I noticed they have put the power outage notice back up.

I wonder if they got fuel for the generator, and that is what they have been using, and they may have had to reduce power to the antenna.

Anyone got a contact at KBDI engineering they can check with?

jschuk

04-22-09, 12:01 AM

I am very pleased. I just finished running RG6 for 300ohm's DBGH VHF/UHF antenna (minus the 2nd set of NAROD's)that I put in my attic this Saturday. The antenna is aimed at magnetic 330` for me, which is about 2/3 through the gable and 1/3 through the roof (which had several inches of high water content snow on it). 2ft run from antenna to 2way splitter (-3.5db) and then 49ft run to upstairs TV and ~75ft run to downstairs TV. CM-7000 at the end of both runs. Most of the channels I pay attention to are coming in at 96-100% strength. Ion and 31 are at about 54-62%. No KBDI, though I must have caught a piece of it at some point as it shows in my list of channels. The antenna is a little over 5ft in height and its base is about 21ft off ground. My house is in Ken Caryl Ranch with a 100ft hill between me and Lookout Mtn. I am not going to bother adjusting the antenna at this point until the full June 12th? conversion, unless the cottonwood that is 80ft away causes problems when it leafs out. All of my stations are 1 and 2 edges according to TV fool.

jsmar

04-22-09, 01:14 AM

jsmar, I have one in use, and the 7778 does have separate VHF and UHF inputs.
It can also accept a combined signal; the switch is inside the box.
ob T

OK, I think this is the second time I've been led astray by Solid Signal's antenna preamp comparison page. If I had known that the CM 7778 was basically the same as the CM 7777 except for the lower gain I would have considered it as an option. I thought the CM 7778 only had the combined input. In fact, I thought the separate inputs was the reason that the 7777 has slightly better noise figures than the CM 7778.

jsmar

04-22-09, 01:26 AM

If you get to the point of buying an antenna, I've been very pleased with the Channel Master 4228 - I'm doing just fine on 7 & 9 with a CM-7778 preamp, and I even get some reception of tough stuff like KRMT and KWHD here in Fort Collins.
Rob T

However, we both have the original CM 4228. The new "redesigned for HD" CM4228 is significantly degraded as delivered. In fact, even though the 4228HD touts its high VHF capabilities, the original CM4228 is better for channel 9 than the 4228HD as delivered. However, there are some hacks you can do to improve things. The following link has the details (of both the problems and the modifications):

CM4228 information from hdtvprimer.com (http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/TemporaryPage.html)

RonAuger

04-22-09, 10:37 AM

Anyone got a contact at KBDI engineering they can check with?

These are from an old contact list I had and I have no idea if they are still current:

GM: Willard_Rowland@kbdi.pbs.org (mailto:Willard_Rowland@kbdi.pbs.org)
Eng: eddie_hernandez@kbdi.pbs.org (mailto:eddie_hernandez@kbdi.pbs.org)

rthurlow

04-22-09, 11:45 AM

However, we both have the original CM 4228.

Good point! I know Tim (anythingwire) has had good luck after changing out to a 4228HD, but the page you link to gives pause. It might be worth trying the tweaks if you're so inclined.

CEB II

04-22-09, 01:38 PM

However, we both have the original CM 4228. The new "redesigned for HD" CM4228 is significantly degraded as delivered. In fact, even though the 4228HD touts its high VHF capabilities, the original CM4228 is better for channel 9 than the 4228HD as delivered. However, there are some hacks you can do to improve things. The following link has the details (of both the problems and the modifications):

CM4228 information from hdtvprimer.com (http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/TemporaryPage.html)

First I've seen of that particular update to the “An HDTV Primer” and it almost seems like the author was in rant mode when he composed it. Some of his/her comments like, "this antenna will be obsolete on June 12" (regarding an antenna for Channels 7-69) seem a little of the wall given the few stations nationwide that will revert to Channels 2 through 6. His/her graphs also perpetuate the notion that the ClearStream is an excellent VHF antenna, while reports in this thread and others on AVS Forum indicate less than satisfactory results for the ClearStream on VHF frequencies. I'd also suggest the author of that article pop a Prozac before he/she incorporates the information on that temporary page into an update of the actual HDTV Primer.

It is surprising that CM screwed up the 4228 so bad with their redesign. The promotional pitch was that VHF reception would be improved and the material deficiencies of the original 4228 (weight and corrosion problems) would be corrected. Somehow in working on the latter, they screwed up the former. Anyway, I've always believed that if your distance, location, and mounting allowed you to get VHF channels on a UHF antenna, more power to you, But, to go to full rant when a UHF antenna does poorly on VHF just seems like a waste of time. If your UHF antenna does a poor job of receiving VHF, then either replace it with a UHF/VHF combo or add a VHF-only antenna to the mix.

CEB II

04-22-09, 01:44 PM

Anyone else noticed the very washed out appearance of the video color on KWGN-DT, Channel 2-1, during the morning news? For a day or so last week the colors got deeper, but then they reverted back to what I've been seeing since the show went HD. Sometimes the brightness is so bad that one can hardly discern the weather map from Jason when he is doing his weather report.

OTOH, KCNC-DT, Channel 4-1 seems to finally noticed that their evening, local newscasts in HD were a bit too dark and the contrast now appears to be just right. Now I can actually see the color tones in Karen's hair (nice hair too). Channels 7-1 and 9-1 have had the right color, contrast, brightness mix pretty much since they went HD on local news.

jsmar

04-22-09, 02:29 PM

and it almost seems like the author was in rant mode when he composed it. Some of his/her comments like, "this antenna will be obsolete on June 12" (regarding an antenna for Channels 7-69) seem a little of the wall given the few stations nationwide that will revert to Channels 2 through 6.

I think you are misinterpreting his remarks. He is not talking about the antenna's ability to receive 2-6. It wasn't designed for that, and obviously antenna's designed for UHF/High VHF are appropriate in many markets (and Winegard has complementary antenna's that will continue to support low VHF).

He is talking about the fact that the antenna was designed for 7-69 rather than 7-51. Yes, a few LP stations will remain above channel 51, but to design for 7-69 sacrifices performance for the channels below 52. After June 12th there will be no full power stations above Channel 51, and most people don't care about trying to receive low power stations from a distance, i.e. if you are buying a HD7698P you are buying it for distance reception. Even if it was redesigned for 7-51 it would probably pick up nearby low power stations in the 52-69 range. If you look at the graph of the HD7698P you will see that its peak UHF response is above channel 52, clearly indicating the sacrifice of response on channels 14-51 in order to receive channels 52-69.

His/her graphs also perpetuate the notion that the ClearStream is an excellent VHF antenna, while reports in this thread and others on AVS Forum indicate less than satisfactory results for the ClearStream on VHF frequencies.

I haven't found a VHF graph with a ClearStream antenna on it. Can you point me to such a graph? The only graph on the temporary page that contains results for the ClearStream2 show its UHF performance, which isn't all that stellar. The ClearStream2 page at HDTVprimer only recommends that antenna as a good indoor antenna, again with no reference to VHF performance. Can you point me to such a reference?

Falcon_77

04-22-09, 03:24 PM

He is talking about the fact that the antenna was designed for 7-69 rather than 7-51. Yes, a few LP stations will remain above channel 51, but to design for 7-69 sacrifices performance for the channels below 52.

Thank you for clarifying this. I first read it the other way as well (that it would be obsolete w/o 2-6).

So, they are still designed for 69 after all. That is a shame since, other than a few LP/TX stations above 51 (which will probably have to move within a few years), reception above 51 won't be needed.

For UHF only models, I would really like to see a new 91XG style Yagi, designed for 14-51, but I might have to import something similar from the UK instead (group K). Thus far, that hasn't seemed cost effective. AD has yet to respond to my requests for a 91XG re-design.

Ironically, the old CM4228 had about the best design for post-transition UHF frequencies, though it drops off under 20. It's about the best available for 30-50, or was! :(

rthurlow

04-22-09, 04:58 PM

I just happened to check; KBDI is back on the air and seems to be back to its normal power.

CEB II

04-22-09, 05:09 PM

I think you are misinterpreting his remarks. He is not talking about the antenna's ability to receive 2-6. It wasn't designed for that, and obviously antenna's designed for UHF/High VHF are appropriate in many markets (and Winegard has complementary antenna's that will continue to support low VHF).

He is talking about the fact that the antenna was designed for 7-69 rather than 7-51. Yes, a few LP stations will remain above channel 51, but to design for 7-69 sacrifices performance for the channels below 52. After June 12th there will be no full power stations above Channel 51, and most people don't care about trying to receive low power stations from a distance, i.e. if you are buying a HD7698P you are buying it for distance reception. Even if it was redesigned for 7-51 it would probably pick up nearby low power stations in the 52-69 range. If you look at the graph of the HD7698P you will see that its peak UHF response is above channel 52, clearly indicating the sacrifice of response on channels 14-51 in order to receive channels 52-69.

I got the impression that his gripe was with not receiving Channels 2 - 6 because he makes a direct point of that fact for the HD7698P and the HBU44. Why would he be so derisive of the Winegard antenna for picking up channels above 51 when practically all the UHF antennas we have been buying for HDTV for the past 5 years are also designed to pick up above Channel 51. That criticism didn't make any sense to me, so I assumed his issue was with the no Channel 2 - 6 since it is at least a legitimate concern for a few folks in places like Chicago. Maybe I misunderstood his issues, but that would be easy given the rant style of his report.

I haven't found a VHF graph with a ClearStream antenna on it. Can you point me to such a graph? The only graph on the temporary page that contains results for the ClearStream2 show its UHF performance, which isn't all that stellar. The ClearStream2 page at HDTVprimer only recommends that antenna as a good indoor antenna, again with no reference to VHF performance. Can you point me to such a reference?

His second to last graph shows the Clearstream 2 (yes it is basically a UHF graph, but it goes down to Channel 10) with practically no drop-off in gain as it hits Channel 10, thus giving the impression that the antenna may suitable for UHF and VHF as it is so marketed.

Falcon_77

04-22-09, 06:00 PM

His second to last graph shows the Clearstream 2 (yes it is basically a UHF graph, but it goes down to Channel 10) with practically no drop-off in gain as it hits Channel 10, thus giving the impression that the antenna may suitable for UHF and VHF as it is so marketed.

He should make that graph stop at channel 14 as channel 10 is nowhere near 450MHz and so this can be confusing.

jsmar

04-22-09, 07:23 PM

I got the impression that his gripe was with not receiving Channels 2 - 6 because he makes a direct point of that fact for the HD7698P and the HBU44. Why would he be so derisive of the Winegard antenna for picking up channels above 51 when practically all the UHF antennas we have been buying for HDTV for the past 5 years are also designed to pick up above Channel 51. That criticism didn't make any sense to me, so I assumed his issue was with the no Channel 2 - 6 since it is at least a legitimate concern for a few folks in places like Chicago. Maybe I misunderstood his issues, but that would be easy given the rant style of his report.

The talk about no reception of 2-6 was at the end. It was just a simple statement of fact. The obsolete claim was made at the beginning, and he immediately followed this claim by saying "In every other respect this seems like a good antenna. But throwing away 2 to 3 dB for a short-lived market advantage seems silly to me." Now, perhaps he wasn't being clear enough about what he meant, but there's no way of correlating the "throwing away 2-3 db" with no reception of 2-6. I knew exactly what he was referring to, because he has talked about this issue in other writings of his. But without that context I can see that he wasn't being clear enough.

Basically, he understands that older antenna's needed to be designed for reception up to channel 69, but his complaint is that if you are going to spend the time and money to redesign or design a new antenna, especially a new antenna that just came out within the last year (I don't know when the HD7698P came to market, but I think it is fairly recent), then that new design should be designed for optimal reception in the 14-52 range. The HD7698P is particularly worth noting regarding this, because it has its best gain in the 54-69 range. It isn't hard to imagine that that optimal gain may have been in the channel 37-52 range if the antenna had been designed for 14-52 rather than 14-69.

He should make that graph stop at channel 14 as channel 10 is nowhere near 450MHz and so this can be confusing.

Yes the graph starts at 450 Mhz, but the channel ticks don't start until channel 14 (there is a channel tick for every 2 channels, and there is no tick for where channel 12 would be). But yes, it could be confusing.

towermonkey

04-22-09, 11:14 PM

These are from an old contact list I had and I have no idea if they are still current:

GM: Willard_Rowland@kbdi.pbs.org (mailto:Willard_Rowland@kbdi.pbs.org)
Eng: eddie_hernandez@kbdi.pbs.org (mailto:eddie_hernandez@kbdi.pbs.org)

Wow, that's an old list. Eddie hasn't been there is years. Richard who replaced Eddie is also gone now. I've talked with the "new" guy, but don't remember his name. You can call the front desk and get the info.

Rick313

04-22-09, 11:52 PM

kucharsk

04-23-09, 12:31 AM

I noticed this evening that TiVo finally changed the digital frequency for KRMT-DT from 19 to 40, and my TiVo HD can actually tune it now. I don't watch that much on KRMT, but there are occasionally programs that interest me, so it's nice to be able to tune the station and setup recordings using the guide.

On the down side, though, they've yet to remove 7 or 9 analog. :(

As an aside, KRMT-DT was always receivable as a scanned channel, it's just it wasn't associated with its guide info.

Phil T

04-23-09, 12:43 AM

CEB II

04-23-09, 12:59 AM

KDVR did not have American Idol in HD tonight but the 9:00 news was. KWGN still is not showing Two and a Half Men in HD. They actually turn on a blue HD background about a minute before they start their news.

Hopefully both stations will get their HD technical bugs under control soon.

Well I couldn't watch AI via OTA DTV tonight because for at least the first 20 minutes there wasn't any audio. I stopped checking after that. Good thing I had KDVR-DT available via Dish or the wife would have been really ticked.

Rick313

04-23-09, 01:07 AM

Now that TiVo recognizes KRMT-DT, I've turned my attention to KDEN-DT. When I first got my TiVo HD, it listed KDEN-DT as 25-3. I got them to change that to 25-1, but it still won't tune. I recall that some members have said that their tuners show this station as 29-3.

My assumption then is that the real channel is 29-3, and since the virtual channel is 25-1, this confuses some tuners. Can someone (jsmar maybe) confirm this hypothesis, or are there other issues with KDEN's PSIP that could be causing problems?

Rick313

04-23-09, 01:13 AM

On the down side, though, they've yet to remove 7 or 9 analog.

I'm sure that'll happen eventually. At least it doesn't cause any problems.

As an aside, KRMT-DT was always receivable as a scanned channel, it's just it wasn't associated with its guide info.

I realize that of course, it's just that it kind of defeats the purpose of having TiVo if you have to manually schedule recordings.

Rick313

04-23-09, 01:21 AM

KWGN still is not showing Two and a Half Men in HD.

Yeah, I've complained several times via their web site, but of course, have not received any communication from them. It makes no sense that they can broadcast their news and prime time stuff in HD but not other shows that they used to broadcast in HD. I think they're just too busy playing with their new toys to care. Like adding those stupid banners that take up almost half the screen. Bastards!

CEB II

04-23-09, 01:27 AM

Basically, he understands that older antenna's needed to be designed for reception up to channel 69, but his complaint is that if you are going to spend the time and money to redesign or design a new antenna, especially a new antenna that just came out within the last year (I don't know when the HD7698P came to market, but I think it is fairly recent), then that new design should be designed for optimal reception in the 14-52 range. The HD7698P is particularly worth noting regarding this, because it has its best gain in the 54-69 range. It isn't hard to imagine that that optimal gain may have been in the channel 37-52 range if the antenna had been designed for 14-52 rather than 14-69.

Like I stated earlier, the author seemed to be in rant mode and the article suffered inconsistencies because of it. That's why I hoped the final write-up incorporated into the Primer was more objective and consistent. For inconsistency, note that he rips the new DB-8 and the HD7698P for not re-scaling their designs to improve lower channel reception and drop off after Channel 51. But, the new 4228, which apparently does have some design and/or manufacturing flaws, isn't credited for improving reception below Channel 30 and dropping off reception beyond about Channel 56 (compared to the old 4228), while he fawns over the original 4228, which does less well under Channel 30 and is still strong out to around Channel 72. Then he proceeds to "fix" the new 4228, but the most dramatic UHF reception improvement with his fixes is above Channel 50 and he doesn't mention that fact.

I think he is a bright and knowledgeable guy, but the page we are discussing was poorly composed and seemed to reflect more emotion than warranted in a technical discussion. BTW, I'm a retired, but still licensed PE (not an EE, but an ME), so I have read a few technical papers in my time and I have good knowledge of technical writing. The existing Primer discussion of available antennas is a good piece of work, but the piece we have been discussing isn't up to that level.

milehighmike

04-23-09, 02:10 AM

Posted by Rick313:
My assumption then is that the real channel is 29-3, and since the virtual channel is 25-1, this confuses some tuners. Can someone (jsmar maybe) confirm this hypothesis, or are there other issues with KDEN's PSIP that could be causing problems?
All of my tuners display KDEN as 25-1 except my kitchen LCD, which displays it as 29-3.

jsmar

04-23-09, 04:04 AM

My assumption then is that the real channel is 29-3, and since the virtual channel is 25-1, this confuses some tuners. Can someone (jsmar maybe) confirm this hypothesis, or are there other issues with KDEN's PSIP that could be causing problems?

Yes, the real channel is 29-3 and the virtual channel is 25-1. But that in itself should not confuse anything. For example, I assume KWGN whose real channel is 34-3 and whose virtual channel is 2-1 doesn't confuse your tuner, does it?

Posted by Rick313:

All of my tuners display KDEN as 25-1 except my kitchen LCD, which displays it as 29-3.

Can I assume that your kitchen LCD does honor virtual channel mappings normally? Using the example above, does your kitchen LCD display 2-1 or 34-3 for KWGN?

So, I examined KDEN's psip to see if I could spot something wrong, and I think I found an error which might be causing this problem. As has been mentioned on this forum many times, every station has a unique "Transport Stream Identifier", or TSID for short, assigned to it. KDEN's TSID is 491. There are two places where this TSID should be used: 1) In the PAT table, and 2) In each entry in the TVCT table. The TVCT table is the table that maps virtual channel numbers to program numbers (real channel numbers are in the form <rf channel number>-<program number>). The PAT table is the table that tells how many subchannels there are, what their program numbers are, and where each programs PMT (Program Map Table) can be found.

KDEN properly inserts their assigned TSID in each entry in the TVCT table, but they are using a value of 1 for their TSID in the PAT table. So I can easily imagine that some devices might ignore the mappings in the TVCT due to the TSID mismatch.

Rick313

04-23-09, 11:04 AM

Yes, the real channel is 29-3 and the virtual channel is 25-1. But that in itself should not confuse anything. For example, I assume KWGN whose real channel is 34-3 and whose virtual channel is 2-1 doesn't confuse your tuner, does it?

Thanks for the reply. I didn't realize that KWGN was doing something similar. Since the tuner has no problem with it, I agree that my original hypothesis was flawed.

KDEN properly inserts their assigned TSID in each entry in the TVCT table, but they are using a value of 1 for their TSID in the PAT table. So I can easily imagine that some devices might ignore the mappings in the TVCT due to the TSID mismatch.

This sounds like a plausible explanation to me. Thanks for taking the time to look into this for those of us without the proper equipment and software.

mifronte

04-23-09, 01:19 PM

Is anyone else not getting audio on KDVR DT at 31.1?

I tuned into American Idol last night at 8:20PM and no audio. So far as of this morning, 11:20 AM, still no audio in southwest Longmont.

jafi1

04-23-09, 01:36 PM

Is anyone else not getting audio on KDVR DT at 31.1?

I tuned into American Idol last night at 8:20PM and no audio. So far as of this morning, 11:20 AM, still no audio in southwest Longmont.

I'm pulling KDVR via the Fort Collins KFCT translator - 22.1 (digital 21)
I have audio but everything is breaking up very badly.
I did not have any problems with it last night for the digital. I get nothing over 22 analog last night or today though.

If I tune to digital 32 I get a brief picture freeze but can't get enough signal to lock.

jsmar

04-23-09, 01:50 PM

Is anyone else not getting audio on KDVR DT at 31.1?

I tuned into American Idol last night at 8:20PM and no audio. So far as of this morning, 11:20 AM, still no audio in southwest Longmont.

You may need to rescan to get your audio back. My guess is that your problem was caused by some messing around with audio tracks that KDVR did yesterday morning. First they dropped their spanish audio track, then they brought it back but set the language to english, at the same time as they dropped the real english track. Then they bought back the original english track and changed the language for the spanish track back to spanish.

My guess is that some tuners didn't follow that very well, although I'm not sure how they would have even noticed the changes if you weren't tuned to KDVR sometime between 5AM and 10AM yesterday, i.e. after 10AM yesterday it was back to normal.

Does your tuner have a way of selecting the language track? Try switching to the spanish track and see what you get (it typically is english, i.e. it is only spanish when the program being broadcast has an alternate spanish track).

mifronte

04-23-09, 02:27 PM

Aurora80017

04-23-09, 02:51 PM

You may need to rescan to get your audio back. My guess is that your problem was caused by some messing around with audio tracks that KDVR did yesterday morning. First they dropped their spanish audio track, then they brought it back but set the language to english, at the same time as they dropped the real english track. Then they bought back the original english track and changed the language for the spanish track back to spanish.

My guess is that some tuners didn't follow that very well, although I'm not sure how they would have even noticed the changes if you weren't tuned to KDVR sometime between 5AM and 10AM yesterday, i.e. after 10AM yesterday it was back to normal.

Does your tuner have a way of selecting the language track? Try switching to the spanish track and see what you get (it typically is english, i.e. it is only spanish when the program being broadcast has an alternate spanish track).
Since sometime Wednesday 4/22/09 KDVR OTA video has been breaking up on my LG LST-3410A and Zenith HDR230 recorders. The video is working OK on my Panasonic plasma TV's tuner. No problem with audio on any of the devices. Thought it might be a wiring problem so I switched cables from my outdoor antenna, but KDVR still is having problems on the recorders. Also I rescanned to verify there were no channel changes. All other OTA stations are coming in normally. The signal strength meters on both the recorders and TV show a good to strong signal for KDVR. I believe KDVR must be having some sort of transmission problem.

mifronte

04-23-09, 03:15 PM

Well, I just performed a complete scan on my Sony KDF-E50A10 TV and still no audio for KDVR-DT in southwest Longmont. Video is perfect.

I will check my Sony XBR4 later to see if it is experiencing the same problem. They both are getting the feed from the same rooftop antenna.

Rick313

04-23-09, 04:41 PM

Well, I just performed a complete scan on my Sony KDF-E50A10 TV and still no audio for KDVR-DT in southwest Longmont. Video is perfect.

My signal quality tends to fluctuate a lot for KDVR. Sometimes it's 100%, but right now it's 75%. I'm getting audio and video, but the audio is slightly out of sync. Like another poster said, they're probably having transmitter issues especially considering that they had issues last night.

mifronte

04-23-09, 05:18 PM

I tested KDVR-DT 31.1 on my Sony XBR4 TV and I do get audio, but it is very out of sync with the video. Still no audio on my Sony KDF-E50A10 TV .

cia_viewer

04-23-09, 06:49 PM

Does anyone have any idea when 7.1 KMGH-DT will be boosting their signal?

cia_viewer

04-23-09, 07:18 PM

9.1 KUSA-DT signal has also dropped. My TiVo can still get it.

cia_viewer

04-23-09, 07:34 PM

Sounds to me like your problem is that you're not using the TV55 as it was designed. The dongle, as you call it, is the power injector for the TV55's internal amplifier. Even if you don't require amplification, you must use the power injector to enable the antenna to function properly. Without it, your reception will be seriously undermined.

I suppose the Terk TV55 'power injector' would not be effective at the TV instead of at the Antenna. We have no electrical outlets in our attic.
. . . . . . uhf
>-------------------------|
. . . . . . vhf . . . . . . . . . . |---------- TVs
>-[a]-----------------[b]-|

If I manage to get power to the attic, do you think it would matter which end of the 4 foot RG6 'jumper' ([a]/[b]) to insert the 'power injector' (near the antenna or near the Pico Macom UVSJ UHF VHF Band Separator / Combiner)?

jsmar

04-23-09, 07:35 PM

Does anyone have any idea when 7.1 KMGH-DT will be boosting their signal?
They can't do it until and if they get FCC approval for the request. They are at their currently approved maximum as far as I know.

Aurora80017

04-23-09, 07:41 PM

Since sometime Wednesday 4/22/09 KDVR OTA video has been breaking up on my LG LST-3410A and Zenith HDR230 recorders. The video is working OK on my Panasonic plasma TV's tuner. No problem with audio on any of the devices. Thought it might be a wiring problem so I switched cables from my outdoor antenna, but KDVR still is having problems on the recorders. Also I rescanned to verify there were no channel changes. All other OTA stations are coming in normally. The signal strength meters on both the recorders and TV show a good to strong signal for KDVR. I believe KDVR must be having some sort of transmission problem.
Checked KDVR news at around 5:30 PM. Now have good video and the sound is in sync on both my OTA recorders.

jsmar

04-23-09, 07:43 PM

I suppose the Terk TV55 'power injector' would not be effective at the TV instead of at the Antenna. We have no electrical outlets in our attic.
. . . . . . uhf
>-------------------------|
. . . . . . vhf . . . . . . . . . . |---------- TVs
>-[a]-----------------[b]-|

If I manage to get power to the attic, do you think it would matter which end of the 4 foot RG6 'jumper' ([a]/[b]) to insert the 'power injector' (near the antenna or near the Pico Macom UVSJ UHF VHF Band Separator / Combiner)?

Actually the UVSJ does pass power to the VHF side, so your power injector can be downstream from that. Are there any splitters between the UVSJ and the TV? If so you need to put the power injector between the splitter and the UVSJ, or, you need a splitter with power pass to one of the ports. Connect that port to whatever location is easiest for installing the power injector, e.g. at your TV.

milehighmike

04-23-09, 11:21 PM

Posted by jsmar:
Can I assume that your kitchen LCD does honor virtual channel mappings normally? Using the example above, does your kitchen LCD display 2-1 or 34-3 for KWGN?

That TV displays all other stations' channel mappings correctly. KDEN is the only one not displayed properly, so I think you're right that their PSIP contains an error which my kitchen LCD doesn't handle well. I also have one receiver, my Dish ViP222, that does not display video for KRMT, only audio. All of my other receivers, including my kitchen LCD and my other Dish receiver display video for this station. I suspect they also have a small error in their PSIP info.

Rick313

04-23-09, 11:44 PM

The Terk is aimed to pick up analog 6. It does that quite well.

I'm a little confused about your antenna alignment. In the picture that you posted, it appears that your TV55 is perpendicular to your DB8. I'm not sure where you're located, so are you picking up KRMA analog from a repeater or something? If not, shouldn't the TV55 be parallel to the DB8 so that they are both aligned toward LOM? In any case, if your TV55 is facing away from LOM, I'm sure that has more than a little to do with your lack of reception for KMGH and KUSA.

cia_viewer

04-24-09, 07:46 AM

Actually the UVSJ does pass power to the VHF side, so your power injector can be downstream from that. Are there any splitters between the UVSJ and the TV? If so you need to put the power injector between the splitter and the UVSJ, or, you need a splitter with power pass to one of the ports. Connect that port to whatever location is easiest for installing the power injector, e.g. at your TV.

Between our USVJ and the TVs in our 'home run box' is our 'video amplifier':
OnQ
Part Number: 363469-02
3x8 Video Module
RC [ 0 ] SC ADV100-BW
DC [ 0203 ]

cia_viewer

04-24-09, 11:17 AM

I'm a little confused about your antenna alignment. In the picture that you posted, it appears that your TV55 is perpendicular to your DB8. I'm not sure where you're located, so are you picking up KRMA analog from a repeater or something? If not, shouldn't the TV55 be parallel to the DB8 so that they are both aligned toward LOM? In any case, if your TV55 is facing away from LOM, I'm sure that has more than a little to do with your lack of reception for KMGH and KUSA.

Sorry, that was an old picture. It is not much fun getting to the attic via the bedroom closet ceiling hatch! This photo was taken today. The end of the house faces ~ 230 deg (South West). I think the Antennae are facing ~ 210 deg. The iron in the DB8 confuses my Boy Scout compass.

KRMA 6 is on Mount Morrison. That is what the TV55 is 'tuned' for. We are getting good reception from analog KRMA 6.

We are located in north east Longmont near 17th and Pace.

jsmar

04-24-09, 12:44 PM

Between our USVJ and the TVs in our 'home run box' is our 'video amplifier':
OnQ
Part Number: 363469-02
3x8 Video Module
RC [ 0 ] SC ADV100-BW
DC [ 0203 ]

Since you are providing power to the video amp at that point you should be able to install your power injector there, i.e. connect the cable from the UVSJ to the power injector, and then use a short RG6 cable to connect the power injector to the video amp. It's possible that two stages of amplification might cause problems. You may want to hook one of the TV's directly to the power injector (i.e. bypass the video amp) as an experiment to see if the video amp is causing any problems once you install the power injector for the Terk V55's preamp.

KRMA 6 is on Mount Morrison. That is what the TV55 is 'tuned' for. We are getting good reception from analog KRMA 6.

KRMA 6 analog is on Lookout Mountain. KRMA 6 digital is on Mount Morrison.

jsmar

04-25-09, 04:24 AM

KDVR did not have American Idol in HD tonight but the 9:00 news was. KWGN still is not showing Two and a Half Men in HD. They actually turn on a blue HD background about a minute before they start their news.

Hopefully both stations will get their HD technical bugs under control soon.

It still hasn't changed. Their primetime shows are in SD, but the news is in HD. There must be a reason for this, but I'm not sure what it is.

CEB II

04-25-09, 11:51 AM

It still hasn't changed. Their primetime shows are in SD, but the news is in HD. There must be a reason for this, but I'm not sure what it is.

Hmmm, swore I had AI in HD, but I certainly had Doll House in SD last night, followed by the local news in HD. Fox31 better get this straightened out before Monday night's installment of 24. It just seems idiotic and unforgivable for a major network affiliate to be screwing up the presentation of some of the most popular shows on television. "24" is tops with my buddies and I. It is always a topic of discussion in phone calls and at the monthly retirees breakfast. Fox31 better watch out or they'll have a bunch of grumpy old men really PO'd at them.

Rick313

04-25-09, 12:14 PM

Hmmm, swore I had AI in HD...

It was HD on Tuesday, but Wednesday was when they started having problems, and as far as I know, everything has been in SD since then. I wonder if a piece of their HD equipment went bad or something.

It just seems idiotic and unforgivable for a major network affiliate to be screwing up the presentation of some of the most popular shows on television.

I agree. 2 The Douche screwed up their primetime HD broadcasts for about a month during their studio move not that their shows are the most popular or anything, but still idiotic and unforgivable as you so eloquently put it.

cia_viewer

04-25-09, 06:33 PM

Since you are providing power to the video amp at that point you should be able to install your power injector there, i.e. connect the cable from the UVSJ to the power injector, and then use a short RG6 cable to connect the power injector to the video amp. It's possible that two stages of amplification might cause problems. You may want to hook one of the TV's directly to the power injector (i.e. bypass the video amp) as an experiment to see if the video amp is causing any problems once you install the power injector for the Terk TV55's preamp.

I tried it as you described.
>-[UVSJ]-------[Terk Pwr.Inj.]---[Vid.Amp.]------TVs

I think it:
1) degraded analog 6 a little
2) may have degraded 12 some (Their current weakened signal is no help)
3) digital 7 still MIA
4) digital 9 maybe about the same
There is not much to the Terk Pwr.Inj.

Rick313

04-25-09, 11:30 PM

I tried it as you described.
>-[UVSJ]-------[Terk Pwr.Inj.]---[Vid.Amp.]------TVs

You might want to try it without the Vid.Amp. as jsmar suggested since it could be creating a signal overload. Also, did you try the Terk Pwr.Inj. in both the on and off positions? Sometimes that makes a difference too. The main thing is to make sure the TV55 is aligned toward LOM since that is where 6 analog, 7 digital, and 9 digital are all located.

jsmar

04-26-09, 01:20 AM

I tried it as you described.
>-[UVSJ]-------[Terk Pwr.Inj.]---[Vid.Amp.]------TVs

I think it:
1) degraded analog 6 a little
2) may have degraded 12 some (Their current weakened signal is no help)
3) digital 7 still MIA
4) digital 9 maybe about the same
There is not much to the Terk Pwr.Inj.

I'm surprised that it works at all without the injector. Most preamps don't pass much if any signal when they are not powered. I'm curious if the degradation you are seeing is due to the extra connections, rather than the power injector. After the power injector was hooked up did you compare the signal with the power for the power injector off vs. on? Is the comparison above between what you were getting before you made connection changes and after, or with vs. without power to the power injector?

If there is no difference whatsoever when you plug the injector in then there is something wrong with getting power to the preamp or their is something wrong with the preamp.

You might want to try it without the Vid.Amp. as jsmar suggested since it could be creating a signal overload. Also, did you try the Terk Pwr.Inj. in both the on and off positions? Sometimes that makes a difference too. The main thing is to make sure the TV55 is aligned toward LOM since that is where 6 analog, 7 digital, and 9 digital are all located.

Yes, he really should try without the video amp, but it may not make any difference. As far as aiming at Lookout Mountain goes, if he is aiming at Mt. Morrison there probably won't be much difference, because from Longmont there is only a 3 degree difference between the two locations.

aerodq

04-26-09, 02:25 AM

jsmar

04-26-09, 03:46 AM

I am trying to pick up signals in Fort Collins. I get a signal on channel 22.1 which appears to be Denver's Fox station. I also get a CBS station from WY but was hoping to get an NBC affiliate. Should I be able to pick up any other Denver stations up here?

I am using a simple silver sensor antenna.

The silver sensor is a UHF (RF channels 13-52) antenna. The only NBC affiliate that can be received in Fort Collins is KUSA, and they are broadcasting on a VHF channel (as well as the ABC affiliate KMGH). Also, the silver sensor is not sensitive enough to receive channels from 50-60 miles away under most circumstances (you may have more luck if the silver sensor was located next to a south facing window on a second, or higher, floor).

You are not actually getting KDVR (Denver's FOX affiliate) from their transmitter in Denver. They have a sister station that broadcasts their programming with a transmitter near Fort Collins, which is what you are receiving. If you haven't rescanned since Friday evening you may also be able to get KRMA (one of the Denver PBS stations) via their local translator on Horsetooth Mountain. However, they have been having a lot of technical difficulties with the translator, so it may come and go.

Anyway, you can get a bunch of channels directly from Denver, but you won't be able to get any of them (at least not reliably) with your silver sensor. You need to install a larger antenna. Most people install them either inside their attic or outside on the roof. Such an antenna needs to cover both the high VHF and UHF channel ranges. People on this forum can advise you further if you decide to install such an antenna.

cia_viewer

04-26-09, 08:05 AM

I'm surprised that it works at all without the injector. Most preamps don't pass much if any signal when they are not powered. I'm curious if the degradation you are seeing is due to the extra connections, rather than the power injector. After the power injector was hooked up did you compare the signal with the power for the power injector off vs. on? Is the comparison above between what you were getting before you made connection changes and after, or with vs. without power to the power injector?

If there is no difference whatsoever when you plug the injector in then there is something wrong with getting power to the preamp or their is something wrong with the preamp.

Yes, he really should try without the video amp, but it may not make any difference. As far as aiming at Lookout Mountain goes, if he is aiming at Mt. Morrison there probably won't be much difference, because from Longmont there is only a 3 degree difference between the two locations.

Yes, I did try it with power on and power off. With power off, analog 6 was degraded even more. It is not very easy to connect one of our DTVs to the antenna RG6 going to the home run Video Amp.

I have attached a picture. The Pwr. Inj. was made in China and I am thinking it is either ineffective or defective. I believe that was my conclusion in 2003 when I first started using the Terk TV55 antenna alone.

Maybe our only hope is when digital 6 gets up of the Ice Bridge. 14.1 comes in good at 81, and 7 boosts their power.

I wonder: have 7 and 9 gained any audience by hanging on to their 'original' VHF frequencies?

Audiguy3

04-26-09, 05:53 PM

CEB II

04-26-09, 09:47 PM

Yes, I did try it with power on and power off. With power off, analog 6 was degraded even more. It is not very easy to connect one of our DTVs to the antenna RG6 going to the home run Video Amp.

I have attached a picture. The Pwr. Inj. was made in China and I am thinking it is either ineffective or defective. I believe that was my conclusion in 2003 when I first started using the Terk TV55 antenna alone.

Maybe our only hope is when digital 6 gets up of the Ice Bridge. 14.1 comes in good at 81, and 7 boosts their power.

I wonder: have 7 and 9 gained any audience by hanging on to their 'original' VHF frequencies?

I have used one of those "power injector" type of in-line amplifiers some time back, purchased as a separate product (don't remember the brand, but I think I bought it at Rat Shack). It didn't do much because it is so electronically noisy that it is self defeating. I tossed mine as I think it is a worthless device. I think you need a better VHF antenna. Once analog Channel 6 is shut down, an AntennaCraft Y5-7-13 would be a good choice for you.

CEB II

04-26-09, 09:56 PM

Digital 7 still holding steady at 100/100. Digital 9 seems to pump up a bit in the mornings to 96-97/100, but drops back to the 95/100 that I've had since transition. I'm still amazed. Old UHF/VHF combo antenna without any amplification.

jsmar

04-27-09, 01:20 AM

Once analog Channel 6 is shut down, an AntennaCraft Y5-7-13 would be a good choice for you.

Perhaps he won't have to wait for Channel 6 analog to shut down. KRMA has said that they plan on improving their digital service on RF18 in late May. If cia_viewer can get reliable digital service from KRMA he won't have any need for the analog service.

cia_viewer

04-27-09, 09:27 AM

I found this useful link on another forum topic:
http://www.fcc.gov/mb/engineering/maps/

cia_viewer

04-27-09, 09:39 AM

Perhaps he won't have to wait for Channel 6 analog to shut down. KRMA has said that they plan on improving their digital service on RF18 in late May. If cia_viewer can get reliable digital service from KRMA he won't have any need for the analog service.

I am hopeful that when digital 6 moves up off the ice bridge, we will get good reception. (15)14.1 KTFD-DT, on Morrison comes in at 81 !

That will leave 7 and 9 all alone in the Denver VHF band. I wonder if anyone gets better digital reception from them on VHF? I worry some about 9's occasionally weak signal and we totally miss 7's news.

jamjar

04-27-09, 10:24 AM

[QUOTE=cia_viewer;16349322
That will leave 7 and 9 all alone in the Denver VHF band.
[/QUOTE]

Actually, KBDI-DT will move to VHF at RF 13.

I probably will not see their signal here, but maybe when I get my Winegard YA1713 on the roof.

mbuchana

04-27-09, 10:57 AM

That will leave 7 and 9 all alone in the Denver VHF band. I wonder if anyone gets better digital reception from them on VHF? I worry some about 9's occasionally weak signal and we totally miss 7's news.

Up here in Ft. Collins:

Ch. 7: pre-April 16 (UHF): 60-ish on the scale, post-April 16: 90+
Ch. 9: pre-April 16: 80-ish, post-April 16: 90+

So, yes, the VHF frequencies (and power levels) have been a big improvement for me.

CEB II

04-27-09, 01:34 PM

I found this useful link on another forum topic:
http://www.fcc.gov/mb/engineering/maps/

The data appears to be based on post-transition specifications, not current conditions. For example, they list KRMT-DT as GREEN for me, but it is a 1-edge signal, listed as RED on TVFool for me. I can see that they have a signal, but I'm no where near close to seeing any video or locking the signal.

CEB II

04-27-09, 01:38 PM

I am hopeful that when digital 6 moves up off the ice bridge, we will get good reception. (15)14.1 KTFD-DT, on Morrison comes in at 81 !

That will leave 7 and 9 all alone in the Denver VHF band. I wonder if anyone gets better digital reception from them on VHF? I worry some about 9's occasionally weak signal and we totally miss 7's news.

I get wonderful reception of DTV Channels 7 (100/100) and 9 (95/100) since they switched back to their high VHF frequencies (old, no-name, 5' UHF/VHF combo antenna in attic w/o amplification). Much better than when they were on UHF. Previously their analog signals on those high VHF frequencies were strong 7 stronger than 9), but badly ghosted (9 worst than 7). That's why I think your problem is the antenna you are using for VHF.

Scott Pro

04-27-09, 08:44 PM

What is up with the Nuggets & Altitude Network? Nuggets are in the playoffs and there's no HD? Sad.

mrdobolina

04-27-09, 09:39 PM

I was wondering the same thing, Scott

jsmar

04-27-09, 11:11 PM

That will leave 7 and 9 all alone in the Denver VHF band. I wonder if anyone gets better digital reception from them on VHF? I worry some about 9's occasionally weak signal and we totally miss 7's news.

For me, KUSA went down 4 points on my "Signal Quality" meter, from about 94 to about 90. KMGH went up 4 points from 92 to 96.

But this is kind of silly to try to compare a signal level on different frequencies using different antenna's. Even if you have a combo antenna they have different elements for UHF reception and VHF reception and the specs will specify different average gains for VHF and UHF frequencies.

So why do you think it is valid to say that KUSA has a "weak" signal when you were previously receiving KUSA on a DB8, which is a high quality UHF antenna designed for long distance reception, and now you are receiving KUSA via a Terk V55 which even the manufacturer claims is a "indoor/outdoor antenna designed for reception in condos/apartments".

Whether or not you think the problem is yours or not, KUSA is not going to be doing anything in the near future (if ever) to improve their signal. KMGH should boost the power level once (and if) they get FCC approval, but I doubt you will get a signal level that is better than KUSA's currently is. You have almost no chance of getting KBDI after the transition with your current setup.

milehighmike

04-28-09, 02:20 AM

Posted by Scott Pro:
What is up with the Nuggets & Altitude Network? Nuggets are in the playoffs and there's no HD? Sad.
I checked Altitude's web site and the game was only scheduled for SD. I recall promo's on Altitude when I watched Avs games this year that stated all regular season home and all playoff (well, not this year!) games will be in HD. Guess Kronke thinks more of the Avs that the Nuggets. On the scrolling billboards on the sidelines in tonight's game, I saw one advertising the next game on TNT. I wonder if the game was on TNT, which would be HD, but Altitude had something to do with ensuring we got the feed of the other early game on TNT tonight. The highlights were in HD on ESPN's Sportscenter, so somebody did the game in HD.

davidwsica

04-28-09, 11:13 AM

What is up with the Nuggets & Altitude Network? Nuggets are in the playoffs and there's no HD? Sad.

I just wish Altitude was available OTA!

cia_viewer

04-28-09, 11:17 AM

For me, KUSA went down 4 points on my "Signal Quality" meter, from about 94 to about 90. KMGH went up 4 points from 92 to 96.

But this is kind of silly to try to compare a signal level on different frequencies using different antenna's. Even if you have a combo antenna they have different elements for UHF reception and VHF reception and the specs will specify different average gains for VHF and UHF frequencies.

So why do you think it is valid to say that KUSA has a "weak" signal when you were previously receiving KUSA on a DB8, which is a high quality UHF antenna designed for long distance reception, and now you are receiving KUSA via a Terk V55 which even the manufacturer claims is a "indoor/outdoor antenna designed for reception in condos/apartments".

Whether or not you think the problem is yours or not, KUSA is not going to be doing anything in the near future (if ever) to improve their signal. KMGH should boost the power level once (and if) they get FCC approval, but I doubt you will get a signal level that is better than KUSA's currently is. You have almost no chance of getting KBDI after the transition with your current setup.

You lead me to wonder how our chances are with the DB8 alone. Some have told me on many occasions that 'simpler is better'.

jsmar

04-28-09, 02:46 PM

You lead me to wonder how our chances are with the DB8 alone. Some have told me on many occasions that 'simpler is better'.

Well, the experiment to try it probably wouldn't be difficult. But it most likely won't yield good results. The reason that the CM4228 has some ability to receive some high VHF is that the reflector screen(s) are continuous or close to continuous, whereas that isn't the case for the DB8 (at least the original version). So the DB8 does not yield a significant signal on high VHF. If you were in Denver it might work, but it will almost certainly not work inside an attic from Longmont.

Don_M

04-28-09, 03:47 PM

You lead me to wonder how our chances are with the DB8 alone. Some have told me on many occasions that 'simpler is better'.

Trying won't harm anything... but don't be surprised if it's a waste of time and effort. The DB8's gain at channel 7 is minus 20 dBd; it improves to -10 dBd by channel 13. OTOH, it averages about 12 dBd from channel 14 to channel 50 (source: Ken Nist).

You'd be far better off ditching the TV55 and replacing it with a VHF-high antenna. A Y5-7-13 plus balun will run maybe $35; the better (and bigger) YA-1713 will set you back $50.

Simpler sometimes is better, but then again, separate antennas almost always outperform combos. You're already halfway to a good setup; for a modest additional outlay, swapping out the VHF antenna should be simple.

rthurlow

04-28-09, 04:25 PM

I just wish Altitude was available OTA!

I've expressed surprise before in here about the number of stations in the area that use a digital carrier to send out a single standard-definition program; I would think Altitude might find it interesting to piggyback on one of them. Of course, Altitude might screw that up by wanting to be paid for their program stream :-)

Dave6833

04-28-09, 05:59 PM

...Altitude might screw that up by wanting to be paid for their program stream :-)

:eek: Ya think?

kucharsk

04-28-09, 10:48 PM

Given the way they've been going, KUSA would put them on 9-4.

Heck, who cares if NBC drops to 5 Mbps or so?

Sigh…

milehighmike

04-29-09, 01:54 AM

Posted by kucharsk:
Given the way they've been going, KUSA would put them on 9-4.
Great post.

On another subject, I was flipping thru OTA channels tonight after the news and noticed a couple of things. KCEC was registering a good signal strength but I had no video or audio, just a black screen. With my antenna pointed at LOM, which is NW at my location, I was getting a strong signal on KFCT. I have never been able to receive KFCT without pointing my antenna just E of N. I don't think it was tropo, as I couldn't received KPXC, which is also N of me. Wonder if KFCT raised their ERP up to 1 mW?

jamjar

04-29-09, 11:21 AM

Posted by kucharsk:
With my antenna pointed at LOM, which is NW at my location, I was getting a strong signal on KFCT. I have never been able to receive KFCT without pointing my antenna just E of N. I don't think it was tropo, as I couldn't received KPXC, which is also N of me. Wonder if KFCT raised their ERP up to 1 mW?

KFCT does have a construction permit for Buckhorn Mt. 11 miles west of downtown Fort Collins at 850 kw ERP.

I'm not aware that they have started it up yet and I do not see it at all from my location 9 mi east north east of the tower location. However that would be 90 degrees off the side of my Winegard UHF YAGI antenna.

If I eventually get KFCT, OK if I don't that is also Ok since I get KDVR with a strong signal.

Audiguy3

04-29-09, 11:23 AM

What is up with the Nuggets & Altitude Network? Nuggets are in the playoffs and there's no HD? Sad.

HD is only allowed for local games. Because the Nuggets are not a East Coast team the major networks chose not to cover them - their loss as the game set some NBA records. We will not get any respect till we go further into the playoffs. I noticed that ESPN did not talk about the nuggets much at all - probably because no one else could see the game unless you live in NO or Denver.

Trip in VA

04-29-09, 11:24 AM

I remember reading that KFCT might be for sale. If that is the case, Fox wouldn't be on it anymore, so you'd have to get KDVR or KLWY for Fox programming.

- Trip

wanderAround

04-29-09, 02:38 PM

Hey OTAers, I've been watching this thread for a while now, lots of great info.

To all the OTA folk that use TiVos in Denver:

Do you get the guide info for RMPBS (KRMA), stations 6-1, 6-2, and 6-3? I've had the TiVo for a month now, and they have never been able to match the guide to the right frequency. The picture shows up on frequency 24, but the guide info is on frequency 18, meaning that I can't DVR anything on those stations.

Is anybody else seeing this? I've tried deleting the channels and re-adding them, with no effect. I've also put in two calls into TiVo, but they haven't changed anything either.

This also seems to be the case with 7-27.

jsmar

04-29-09, 03:59 PM

To all the OTA folk that use TiVos in Denver:

Do you get the guide info for RMPBS (KRMA), stations 6-1, 6-2, and 6-3? I've had the TiVo for a month now, and they have never been able to match the guide to the right frequency. The picture shows up on frequency 24, but the guide info is on frequency 18, meaning that I can't DVR anything on those stations.

Are you in Denver or Boulder? I ask because KRMA's main broadcast, from Mt. Morrison in Denver is on RF 18. But there is a low power translator in Boulder on RF 24. My guess is that you are in Boulder and that Tivo is only sending information for the main broadcast, which may be a problem for people in Boulder using the translator (and those in Northern Colorado using the translator on RF 47).

wanderAround

04-29-09, 04:06 PM

Are you in Denver or Boulder? I ask because KRMA's main broadcast, from Mt. Morrison in Denver is on RF 18. But there is a low power translator in Boulder on RF 24. My guess is that you are in Boulder and that Tivo is only sending information for the main broadcast, which may be a problem for people in Boulder using the translator (and those in Northern Colorado using the translator on RF 47).

You are correct, I'm in Boulder. Anybody else in Boulder using a TiVo? I talked to TiVo today and they said there is another ticket open on this issue as well, so hopefully they'll fix it now that I'm not the only one complaining.

Jim McCauley

04-29-09, 06:57 PM

Was KMGH-DT always broadcasting at 720p, or did they change over from 1080i when they switched to VHF 7? I'm asking because one of my receivers is a PC that has never had quite enough "umph" to decode HD cleanly. Since the station's switch beck to VHF, it's much easier for my PC to give me a good picture with little if any macroblocking.

KUSA, on the other hand, is still as difficult to decode as before, and I don't think that it's bit starvation due to the subchannels, because channels 2, 4, 20 and 31 are still tough to decode on the PC when HD is broadcast.

Neither of my CECBs is having any trouble with any of the channels except RF 47, which is weak at my location, and 9-3, which was just a bad idea in the first place.

Jim McCauley

CEB II

04-29-09, 11:30 PM

Vanr

04-30-09, 02:41 PM

Can anyone suggest a fix for...
After the recent KMGH(7), KUSA(9) frequency changes I re-scanned with my DTVPAL, both channels were still their! They were both in the normal location (between channels 4 & 12, I do not get chnl 6) but the displayed channel # for KMGH(7) changed to 70-01 and the channel # for KUSA(9) changed to 71-01. Also I have had ZERO programming info on both channels since the switch (other channels still have program info).
Channel Strength did change: KMGH from 81 to 71 and KUSA from 85 to 78, I did not think this was to bad as I only have UHF outdoor antennas installed.
Any Ideas on what I can do to get my programming info & correct the channel #s?

Trip in VA

04-30-09, 02:58 PM

Vanr:

Delete them and do a full rescan.

- Trip

Phil T

04-30-09, 06:11 PM

Mine did the same thing, You need to do a complete new set up scan, not just add new channels.

bahnzo

04-30-09, 08:47 PM

Just wondering....are the two Spanish language digital chanels (25 & 14) off the air? I'm able to get their analog signal fine, but the digital has disappeared for me.

bunkers

04-30-09, 09:09 PM

My Dish OTA rcvr lost the HD digitals for 7 and 9 ... did they turn them off? I had them just 2-3 weeks back ... now I get no signal.

CEB II

04-30-09, 09:31 PM

My Dish OTA rcvr lost the HD digitals for 7 and 9 ... did they turn them off? I had them just 2-3 weeks back ... now I get no signal.

Okay, who''s going to tell him?

bahnzo

04-30-09, 09:34 PM

My Dish OTA rcvr lost the HD digitals for 7 and 9 ... did they turn them off? I had them just 2-3 weeks back ... now I get no signal.

Just watched both of them tonight, so yes, they are still there.

jr_ota

04-30-09, 10:59 PM

Okay, who''s going to tell him?

That can't possibly be a real post......can it?

jsmar

04-30-09, 11:11 PM

My Dish OTA rcvr lost the HD digitals for 7 and 9 ... did they turn them off? I had them just 2-3 weeks back ... now I get no signal.

When KUSA and KMGH terminated their analog service on April 16th they moved their digital service to the channels they were broadcasting analog on. This change sometimes requires that you do a rescan for channels on your receiver. In some cases you can't just scan for new channels, you need to start over and do a full scan.

If that doesn't fix the problem you may have an antenna issue, since previously the digital services for KMGH and KUSA were broadcast in the UHF band, and now they are broadcasting in the VHF band.

gakon

04-30-09, 11:17 PM

That can't possibly be a real post......can it?

With 300+ posts, you'd think he'd seen some TV over the past 6 months! :rolleyes:

jsmar

04-30-09, 11:18 PM

Just wondering....are the two Spanish language digital chanels (25 & 14) off the air? I'm able to get their analog signal fine, but the digital has disappeared for me.

They're working fine for me here in Fort Collins. What kind of signal strength/quality were you getting previously when you were able to receive them? Those channels (in particular KTFD) come in very strong for me, so unless they were borderline for you previously I can't think of anything that would have changed your ability to receive both of them at the same time. Those were the only channels that you lost?

bahnzo

05-01-09, 12:29 AM

They're working fine for me here in Fort Collins. What kind of signal strength/quality were you getting previously when you were able to receive them? Those channels (in particular KTFD) come in very strong for me, so unless they were borderline for you previously I can't think of anything that would have changed your ability to receive both of them at the same time. Those were the only channels that you lost?

I don't have any way to judge signal strength. The thing that I find weird is that I get their analog signals fine...no snow, no ghosting, etc. And yeah, they are the only ones. I get all the networks fine as well. I know 25 comes in at a different angle, so that could be some of the cause.

Not a big deal I guess, except if I want to watch some soccer in spanish. Just curious why I can get the analog fine, but not their digital.

milehighmike

05-01-09, 02:22 AM

Posted by audiguy3:
HD is only allowed for local games. Because the Nuggets are not a East Coast team the major networks chose not to cover them - their loss as the game set some NBA records. We will not get any respect till we go further into the playoffs. I noticed that ESPN did not talk about the nuggets much at all - probably because no one else could see the game unless you live in NO or Denver.
I'm not sure what you mean that "HD is only allowed for local games". That sounds like there's some rule or regulation that doesn't allow away games in HD, which isn't the case. I think it's a cost issue. All of the Rockies games, home and away, are in HD this year.

And I don't agree that because the Nuggets are not an east coast team, the major networks chose not to cover them. I'm sure TNT had its reasons for not covering the game, and it may very well have been that the late start time didn't appeal to them since the vast majority of the population doesn't live west of the Mississippi, but I don't think it was due to lack of respect for the Nuggets vs. east coast teams. My best guess is that the NBA screwed up scheduling and TNT couldn't handle two games with overlapping playing times.

I remember a couple of years ago, and earlier, when the Nuggets were not a very good team, they had NO (not New Orleans!) national coverage via the TNT's, ABC's, and ESPN's of the world. Once they became a good team, that changed. How many times have the Nuggets been on national TV this year? And how many of those telecasts didn't involve an east coast opponent?

bunkers

05-01-09, 07:52 AM

Thanks for the explanation.

I am using a DB4 (UHF) antenna and don't have a VHF antenna at all ... no wonder I don't get them!

Your right, I haven't been around for awhile ... did a computerized Christmas Light Show and spent all my time there instead (> 2000 posts).

Any suggestions on a VHF antenna that works from 30 miles away? Or this VHF setup for 7 and 9 only temporary? I can live without them for a few months, if they heading back to UHF eventually.

Currently, the DB4 is in my attic, wired to basement wiring panel where I have a channel master preamp attached ... then from wiring panel back to dish OTA Tuner.

Thx,
Scott

ProjectSHO89

05-01-09, 08:40 AM

Don_M

05-01-09, 11:08 AM

In some cases you can't just scan for new channels, you need to start over and do a full scan. ...

If that doesn't fix the problem you may have an antenna issue...

After the flash cut I did an "add channels" scan, which got me channel 7 (with strange channel numbers), but no love on 9. A full scan didn't change anything. My receiver apparently wouldn't let go of the remnants of the temporary UHF assignments until I unplugged it for 5 minutes, then plugged it back in and re-launched the full scan. That got it back on track. So, I'd suggest re-setting the receiver or box as a final step before troubleshooting the antenna system.

jsmar

05-01-09, 12:14 PM

The 7 and 9 assignments are permanent. The UHF assignements were temporary.

You will need to add a high-VHF antenna to the setup. An Antenna Craft Y5-7-13 or similar will fit the bill along with a UVSJ.

The Y5-7-13 would certainly work outdoors, and may work just fine in the attic. But for less than $20 additional I would go with the Winegard YA1713 for an indoor installation, assuming it will fit (It's ~4 feet longer).

jafi1

05-01-09, 02:09 PM

After the flash cut I did an "add channels" scan, which got me channel 7 (with strange channel numbers), but no love on 9. A full scan didn't change anything. My receiver apparently wouldn't let go of the remnants of the temporary UHF assignments until I unplugged it for 5 minutes, then plugged it back in and re-launched the full scan. That got it back on track. So, I'd suggest re-setting the receiver or box as a final step before troubleshooting the antenna system.

It seems to vary by brand of converter box. My Zenith DTT901 got everything right with a simple rescan.
My DTVPal Plus picked up the channels fine but couldn't get the channel mappings correct for the electronic program guide until I deleted the old and new channels 7/9 and did a full rescan.

Update: I got my wires crossed. My DTVPal did indeed require a factory reset to sort out the proper virtual channel numbers. I could get the channels but the Electronic Program Guide and the virtual channel mappings would not display correct info until the reset.

Vanr

05-01-09, 02:45 PM

My TDV Pal required a "Reset" to Factory default via the menu, then Channel #s & Guide returned.

kenavs

05-01-09, 05:36 PM

My TDV Pal required a "Reset" to Factory default via the menu, then Channel #s & Guide returned.

On my DISH TR40CRA (F103), which is a form of DTVPal, when KMGH and KUSA ended analog, I deleted 7-* and 9-*, before I did anything else. I presumed it would need me to delete the entries, in order to reuse the table slots, since it could not know whether 7-* on 17 and 9-* on 16 were off the air temporarily or permanently. Then I did scans on VHF 7 and 9. Both 7-* on 7 and 9-* on 9 were sucessfully added.

Your post did get me to check the Guide info. I hardly ever turn on the TV this box is connected to and I had only glanced at the Guide a couple of times in all the time the box has been installed. When I looked at the Guide a few minutes ago, it was well populated. Since this is the first time I checked since the transition, I have no idea how long it took to fill in 7 and 9 after the transistion.

CEB II

05-01-09, 07:53 PM

The 7 and 9 assignments are permanent. The UHF assignements were temporary.

You will need to add a high-VHF antenna to the setup. An Antenna Craft Y5-7-13 or similar will fit the bill along with a UVSJ.

I agree with jsmar, the Y5-7-13 installed in an attic might be pretty much at its limit at 30 miles, even if "bunkers'" pre-amp can handle VHF as well as UHF (he didn't tell us what model CM pre amp he is using). So a larger high-VHF antenna would probably be a better bet unless he can get some vendor to allow an exchange if he buys the Y5-7-13 first.

bunkers

05-01-09, 09:59 PM

jsmar

05-02-09, 05:21 AM

Thanks for the great advice.

I am using the Channel Master CM 7777 preamp ... it made a big difference.

I have that preamp also, and it is definitely a quality preamp. You can open it up and enable separate inputs for VHF and UHF, so you won't need a UHF/VHF combiner.

Now I need to decide how much I'm willing to spend.

It looks like I could get either into the attic and the attic is plenty big.

I might a mount, unless they come with one.

How about some nylon cord and some nails? When I had an indoor install (that stopped working when I replace my roof with metal shingles) I just banged some nails into the rafters and suspended the antenna with rope (don't use wire). I just tied the rope to a nail in a rafter on one side, wrapped it around the boom once or twice and then back up to another nail on the other side of the antenna. I used two pieces of rope (and four nails), one rope attached to the boom at the front end and another at the back end. by adjusting the rope I could fine tune the "aim" of the antenna (course tuning is based on where you banged in the nails!). Simple, cheap, and worked fine for me for many years. Now, if you use your attic for storage and are moving around up there a lot then perhaps you would want something less prone to shifting if it gets banged into. But the only reason I went into my (garage) attic was to make rare changes to the antenna setup.

pkeegan

05-02-09, 10:23 AM

Audiguy3

05-02-09, 12:12 PM

Posted by audiguy3:

I'm not sure what you mean that "HD is only allowed for local games". That sounds like there's some rule or regulation that doesn't allow away games in HD, which isn't the case. I think it's a cost issue. All of the Rockies games, home and away, are in HD this year.

And I don't agree that because the Nuggets are not an east coast team, the major networks chose not to cover them. I'm sure TNT had its reasons for not covering the game, and it may very well have been that the late start time didn't appeal to them since the vast majority of the population doesn't live west of the Mississippi, but I don't think it was due to lack of respect for the Nuggets vs. east coast teams. My best guess is that the NBA screwed up scheduling and TNT couldn't handle two games with overlapping playing times.

I remember a couple of years ago, and earlier, when the Nuggets were not a very good team, they had NO (not New Orleans!) national coverage via the TNT's, ABC's, and ESPN's of the world. Once they became a good team, that changed. How many times have the Nuggets been on national TV this year? And how many of those telecasts didn't involve an east coast opponent?

Mike,

I needed to be more clear on what I meant about HD limits. Altitude does not have a contract with the local affiliates to broadcast in HD. I think that is deliberate by the NBA to force people to purchase the NBA packages they sign with D*, Dish, Comcast etc. There is the possibility that Altitude does not have HD cameras to take with them on the away games or that to pay for the feeds from the away games is too costly for HD. I am not sure if the away games use the local feeds except for the interviews or if altitude uses their own cameras.

I disagree with you completely on the coverage of the Nuggets. They are not given much coverage at all by any of the networks (both because they are not a East Coast team and also the judgment that they are not a good team - even Barkley has admitted that he does not think they are any good). Hell even Farve rumors of coming out of retirement this week got more coverage on ESPN than any of the Nugget games and victories in the first round. The bias against West Coast teams is well noted in sports unless they are exceptional - look at the college playoffs in BB and in football.

Don_M

05-02-09, 12:50 PM

I agree with jsmar, the Y5-7-13 installed in an attic might be pretty much at its limit at 30 miles...

I'll vouch for that. We have an un-amplified Y5 in our attic @ 23 miles from the LCG tower with LOS. It's 55 feet down to the HDTV/DVD recorder/FM receiver. Signal level averages 74 percent for KMGH and 77 percent for KUSA, but we have no signal issues as these readings are very stable; the needle doesn't move at all for long stretches of time.

Go for the YA-1713 -- given sufficient room, the extra 20 bucks would be money well spent.

CEB II

05-02-09, 01:42 PM

Thanks for the great advice.

I am using the Channel Master CM 7777 preamp ... it made a big difference.

Now I need to decide how much I'm willing to spend.

It looks like I could get either into the attic and the attic is plenty big.

I might a mount, unless they come with one.

For a mount, go to Lowes. They sell a CM univeral antenna mount that screws into the rafters or trusses or ceiling framing in your attic and provides a mechanism for holding a mast. For a mast, buy a section of 1" PVC conduit in Lowes electrical department. PVC conduit isn't rigid enough to use with the antenna mounted on top of it so I usually screw the CM antenna mast mount into the rafters and have the mast pointing down with the antenna attached to it. Pretty cheap and works well. Screws for the mount are fairly big and standard slotted screws, so I buy the same size screws with a Philips or hex head for ease of install.

CEB II

05-02-09, 01:51 PM

I'll vouch for that. We have an un-amplified Y5 in our attic @ 23 miles from the LCG tower with LOS. It's 55 feet down to the HDTV/DVD recorder/FM receiver. Signal level averages 74 percent for KMGH and 77 percent for KUSA, but we have no signal issues as these readings are very stable; the needle doesn't move at all for long stretches of time.

Go for the YA-1713 -- given sufficient room, the extra 20 bucks would be money well spent.

Based on your results, with "bunkers" CM7777 pre-amp, 30 miles is probably doable for a Y5 in the attic.

CEB II

05-02-09, 01:58 PM

I was curious as to how others currently feel about the state of OTA HDTV broadcasts in Denver since 7 & 9 made their switchover back to channels 7 & 9. I for one am a bit disappointed.
While I have good signal strength on 7 & 9 (90 & 80% respectively) I see occasional pixelization artifacts that are more prevalent than before .
31 & 2 have been a disaster recently. They have failed to maintain their broadcast signal numerous times and consistently have audio issues. 2 has the intermittent pop and glaring loud sound and 31 has lost audio completely for hours at a time.
4 has been the best except for their loud volume.
6 isn't even on the table since they stopped broadcasting in HD.
my 2 cents.

DTV Channels 2 and 31 are in the process of making many changes and upgrades so I think we have to cut them a little slack until their final transition is completed, whenever that is (i.e., 6/12/09 analog shutoff and then up to 4 months to get the final antennas on the final towers at full power).

I don't watch much DTV Channel 7 (ABC/KMGH-DT) so I'm not aware of the transient problems you noted. However, DTV Channel 9, since the final switch, has had great signal strength for me, but unexplainable transient drop outs. I've been watching KUSA-DT morning news and later the Today show and I get up to 100/100 signal strength in the morning, but since the final switch I've seen momentary total loss of signal. Before the loss and after the loss my signal strength is at or near maximum, but I still lose the picture for a second or so. I didn't see this before the transition when they were at a lower signal strength, but were on UHF. I know OTA DTV is all or nothing, but the dropouts are very irritating.

Don_M

05-02-09, 05:00 PM

... DTV Channel 9, since the final switch, has had great signal strength for me, but unexplainable transient drop outs. I've been watching KUSA-DT morning news and later the Today show and I get up to 100/100 signal strength in the morning, but since the final switch I've seen momentary total loss of signal.

Tuner overload, perhaps? That 100-percent signal level is a tipoff. If your meter is anything like mine, maximum readings in the 95-97 range might actually be optimum. As always, just my $0.02.

CEB II

05-02-09, 06:53 PM

Tuner overload, perhaps? That 100-percent signal level is a tipoff. If your meter is anything like mine, maximum readings in the 95-97 range might actually be optimum. As always, just my $0.02.

Actually, the 100/100 for DTV Channel 9 the other morning is the only time I've seen 100 for Channel 9. Since the switch, the typical signal level is 95/100 in the evening and 97/100 in the morning. I've had the drop outs during 9News at 10PM in the evening as well.

vikingdave

05-03-09, 09:34 AM

If you get to the point of buying an antenna, I've been very pleased with the Channel Master 4228 - I'm doing just fine on 7 & 9 with a CM-7778 preamp, and I even get some reception of tough stuff like KRMT and KWHD here in Fort Collins.

Rob T
I think you would be much happier with a Winegard HD7694P in Windsor than with the 4228.

I also live in Windsor and struggled to get 7&9 on their VHF frequencies with the 4228.

This week my new Winegard 7694P arrived and the difference is night and day. The 7694P is a really nice and fairly compact VHF/UHF antenna. I get all of the stuff from lookout mountain with signal strength's in the 80's even in bad weather.

The 7694P is also in my opinion much less obtrusive looking that the 4228. Although the 4228 was redesigned to pickup VHF better, I think it's still not as good as a more traditional VHF/UHF combo design for the VHF frequencies. I don't even need a pre-amp with the 7694P.

Every setting is different, but in Windsor the 7694P seems like the perfect antenna for me.

kucharsk

05-04-09, 05:11 AM

Tuner overload, perhaps? That 100-percent signal level is a tipoff. If your meter is anything like mine, maximum readings in the 95-97 range might actually be optimum. As always, just my $0.02.

Nope - I've seen it too.

KUSA-DT will occasionally disappear completely - the tuners report "No Signal" - only to return about 45 seconds later.

I suspect, but don't know, that it's something in the ATSC encoding chain crashing and automatically rebooting.

jsmar

05-04-09, 06:57 AM

Nope - I've seen it too.

KUSA-DT will occasionally disappear completely - the tuners report "No Signal" - only to return about 45 seconds later.

I suspect, but don't know, that it's something in the ATSC encoding chain crashing and automatically rebooting.

When you say the tuners report "No Signal" do you mean a message that is clearly from the tuner (i.e. something that you might see on a another channel if you lost signal), or are you seeing a screen with a message on it that might be from KUSA? I've seen situations like that before (I can't remember what channel), which I assumed to mean that the transmitter lost signal from the studio and had the capability of putting up an error message. What would be funny would be for a transmitter to have an ATSC encoded loop of "snow" along with white noise for that situation. Many people wouldn't think twice about that, but we (readers of this forum) would be scratching our heads over that one!

jamjar

05-04-09, 10:33 AM

When you say the tuners report "No Signal" do you mean a message that is clearly from the tuner (i.e. something that you might see on a another channel if you lost signal), or are you seeing a screen with a message on it that might be from KUSA? I've seen situations like that before (I can't remember what channel), which I assumed to mean that the transmitter lost signal from the studio and had the capability of putting up an error message. What would be funny would be for a transmitter to have an ATSC encoded loop of "snow" along with white noise for that situation. Many people wouldn't think twice about that, but we (readers of this forum) would be scratching our heads over that one!

I have also seen a loss of signal message that came from the transmitter, but I'm not sure what station it occurred on nor do I recall the exact wording. The blackout only lasted a few seconds.

The message is quite different from the normal "No Signal" message from my tuners.

mbuchana

05-04-09, 12:34 PM

I think the message I have seen is either "Loss of Input Signal" or "No Input Signal". I have only seen this on KCNC. It didn't look anything like when my DTV receiver loses signal, so I believed it was a station issue.

jsmar

05-04-09, 01:41 PM

... but since the final switch I've seen momentary total loss of signal. Before the loss and after the loss my signal strength is at or near maximum, but I still lose the picture for a second or so. I didn't see this before the transition when they were at a lower signal strength, but were on UHF. I know OTA DTV is all or nothing, but the dropouts are very irritating.

I'm not sure you and kucharsk are seeing the same thing. He describes losses that last for 45 seconds, whereas you are saying you lose the signal for a second or two. Can you tell whether or not you are losing signal from the transmitter, or whether these dropouts you are seeing are studio glitches?

Also, are you seeing these problems only during live programming (morning and evening news, Today show)? I guess the Today show isn't really live for us, but have you seen the problem during prime time network programming?

Perhaps during the next few days people should report the time (as close as possible) that they see these dropouts (let's not report lower quality / pixelation issues) on KUSA, so we can see whether or not people are seeing them at the same time, indicating a KUSA issue, or whether they may be local reception issues, possibly due to VHF's increased susceptibility to interference.

Don_M

05-04-09, 01:49 PM

kucharsk, jamjar, mbuchana:

Haven't seen anything like what each of you described, but maybe I'm not watching KUSA at the same times. I have seen transitory macroblocking on channel 9 now and again in recent days, but it's accompanied by neither screen message nor decrease in signal level. Since it seems to happen only when the station is passing the network feed, I had dismissed the episodes as glitches in the satellite stream from network to station.

CEB II

05-04-09, 01:57 PM

I'm not sure you and kucharsk are seeing the same thing. He describes losses that last for 45 seconds, whereas you are saying you lose the signal for a second or two. Can you tell whether or not you are losing signal from the transmitter, or whether these dropouts you are seeing are studio glitches?

Also, are you seeing these problems only during live programming (morning and evening news, Today show)? I guess the Today show isn't really live for us, but have you seen the problem during prime time network programming?

Perhaps during the next few days people should report the time (as close as possible) that they see these dropouts (let's not report lower quality / pixelation issues) on KUSA, so we can see whether or not people are seeing them at the same time, indicating a KUSA issue, or whether they may be local reception issues, possibly due to VHF's increased susceptibility to interference.

When the loss occurs, I get nothing for signal strength on my Dish ViP211. If I happen to catch it while using my LG LST4200a, which I seldom use, if the loss lasts long enough, I get the No Signal on the screen, which is generated by the LG. I think kucharsk and I are seeing the same thing although most of the outages I've seen have been a few seconds, I have seen longer duration ones on the order of a minute.

I've seen the problem during KUSA morning and late news and during the Today show. Given NBC's abysmal prime time schedule, the only thing I watch is Medium. I'll look close tonight to see if it occurs during the next episode of Medium.

For now, I don't think it is a local reception issue, but it could be either a station broadcast stream issue or a VHF interference issue. When I got the losses that only last a few seconds, my first thought was that it was a VHF interference issue because I hadn't seen losses like that when they were broadcasting in UHF.

I'll try to keep track of the dates and times I see these outages and their approximate duration.

jsmar

05-04-09, 02:22 PM

I've seen the problem during KUSA morning and late news and during the Today show. Given NBC's abysmal prime time schedule, the only thing I watch is Medium. I'll look close tonight to see if it occurs during the next episode of Medium.

Pretty much the same thing here. I even watch less, because I almost never watch live TV. But I will be recording Medium tonight (don't forget it is a two hour episode tonight), so we can compare notes if there is an issue during that time. I also set my scanning software to scan KUSA continuously, so I will note even momentary dropouts that occur, as long as both of my tuners aren't in use at the same time for recording.

EDIT:

One possibility is adjacent channel interference from KKTV in Colorado Springs (on RF channel 10). I've been picking them up fairly often in the last week or so.

CEB II

05-04-09, 02:32 PM

Pretty much the same thing here. I even watch less, because I almost never watch live TV. But I will be recording Medium tonight (don't forget it is a two hour episode tonight), so we can compare notes if there is an issue during that time. I also set my scanning software to scan KUSA continuously, so I will note even momentary dropouts that occur, as long as both of my tuners aren't in use at the same time for recording.

EDIT:

One possibility is adjacent channel interference from KKTV in Colorado Springs (on RF channel 10). I've been picking them up fairly often in the last week or so.

Well I'll only see an hour of Medium then as I can't miss "24" (I don't have a DVR and my DVDR is a PITA to set up). Maybe I should get a DVR now that the Obama tax cut for us will just about cover the monthly DVR fee. OTOH, I don't think my wife will buy that logic. The only thing that seems to move her is if she sees how cool a DVR is at one of her gal friends houses.

mbuchana

05-04-09, 05:48 PM

Haven't seen anything like what each of you described, but maybe I'm not watching KUSA at the same times.

When I've seen the message it has been on KCNC, not KUSA.

Mark

jsmar

05-04-09, 07:05 PM

Well I'll only see an hour of Medium then as I can't miss "24" (I don't have a DVR and my DVDR is a PITA to set up). Maybe I should get a DVR now that the Obama tax cut for us will just about cover the monthly DVR fee. OTOH, I don't think my wife will buy that logic. The only thing that seems to move her is if she sees how cool a DVR is at one of her gal friends houses.

Perhaps you should consider a DTVpal DVR. There have been some reboot/lockup issues that have caused a fair number of people to hold off on buying the DTVpal DVR. But the most recent firmware update seems to have cleared up most issues, and I've noticed that some people who had one already were purchasing a second one. The advantage of the DTVpal DVR is that there are no monthly fees, and the one time cost is around $250-$275. I'm not personally recommending it, because I don't own one (I do my recording with a PC), but it is something I am considering for a future purchase.

For further info you can look at the DTVPal DVR discussion thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1099071).

Goldengreen249

05-04-09, 11:23 PM

I have also experienced momentary signal loss on KUSA (Channel 7) on my Sony XBR6. It occurs near or slightly after the top of the hour and within the first minute of broadcast after the hour. Tonight as Dancing with the Stars ran into the 9PM hour, KUSA dropped out (loss of signal) for a few seconds at 9:00PM. KUSA must be injecting something into their signal which causes my TV to hiccup. My other DTV tuners show a slight pixelization artifacts in the recorded or viewed signal on KUSA at the same time. I have not seen this on other DTV channels.

kucharsk

05-05-09, 01:46 AM

Dancing with the Stars is on KMGH-DT, or 7-1; KUSA-DT is 9-1/2/3.

As for my KUSA dropouts, they've been during their newscasts (between 4:30 and 6:30 PM; I've never seen them on network feeds.)

CEB II

05-05-09, 11:01 AM

Perhaps you should consider a DTVpal DVR. There have been some reboot/lockup issues that have caused a fair number of people to hold off on buying the DTVpal DVR. But the most recent firmware update seems to have cleared up most issues, and I've noticed that some people who had one already were purchasing a second one. The advantage of the DTVpal DVR is that there are no monthly fees, and the one time cost is around $250-$275. I'm not personally recommending it, because I don't own one (I do my recording with a PC), but it is something I am considering for a future purchase.

For further info you can look at the DTVPal DVR discussion thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1099071).

Thanks for the suggestion and the link. I had considered the DTVpal DVR in passing some time back, but never pursued it further. Sounds like it does still have some problems though. I'll have to weigh its cost versus the initial cost of a Dish 722 ($50) plus the monthly DVR fee. I think that makes it about a 2-year breakeven. I'll refine my analysis and present it to my financial manager (LOL).

CEB II

05-05-09, 11:12 AM

jsmar

05-06-09, 02:43 AM

Had severe pixilization at 7:47 AM this morning during the Today show on KUSA, Channel 9. This wasn't the usual blocking or the complete loss of signal I was addressing originally. But, it was pretty severe as half the picture either disappeared or turned green. However it only lasted a few seconds. Again, this wasn't the kind of outage I was describing in my first post on the issue.

It might not have been the same, but I think they are related. I believe my logging caught the same problem. First, let me give a little background about my logging. The HDHomeRun has three different "meters", one called "Signal Strength", which is a pure RF signal strength. If I tune to an analog station I will still get a reading here. With my preamp I get a reading of 100 for just about all but the weakest stations. I originally thought I was at risk for overload, but then I found out that they set the level for 100 to be ~0dbmV, and that the HDHomeRun can handle a signal 40 db higher than that! Anway, the signal strength is useful in telling if the station is not putting out anything. In that case the reading will typically be in the 25-40 range, which is background noise. In the last two days I've never seen anything but a level of 100 for signal strength, so KUSA has never stopped transmitting as far as I can tell. With 8VSB modulation I don't think there is an underlying carrier, so I don't think you can have the case where they are just putting out carrier and no modulated signal (which is something that can happen with analog), i.e. if they are not sending ATSC packets there is no signal at all.

The second meter is "Signal/Noise Quality". This is really a measure of the uncorrected error rate, and is typically what most tuners show if they only have one meter. The third meter is "Symbol Quality". This is a measure of the corrected error rate. This meter really illustrates the digital cliff. You really want this meter to read 100 at all times, i.e. the tuner is able to correct all errors and give you an error free picture. As the "S/N Quality" meter goes down it will hit a point (typically around 55 on the HDHomeRun) where the "Symbol Quality" Meter starts dropping below 100. If it is in the 90-99 range you typically may not notice the errors in the picture. Once it starts getting below that you will start to see the picture breaking up more and more, and then the audio will start to drop out. Typically there is a very small range on the "S/N Quality" meter where the "Symbol Quality" meter goes from 100 to 0. At zero the signal is gone. You may still be getting packets, but none of them are correctable.

When I set my software to constantly monitor a particular channel it takes about 25 samples per second. I log the results after every 25000 samples, which is about 16-17 minutes. I keep a running total (to compute an average value over the 25000 samples) and I also keep the minimum and maximum level found during that time.

So, for KUSA I normally get:

S/N Quality: Avg. 89.0 Min 73 Max 100
Symbol Quality: Avg. 100.0 Min 100 Max 100

That is what I got most of the time during the last two days. However, here are the results when the logging caught times where the symbol quality dropped below 100:
5/4 15:31-15:47
S/N Quality: Avg. 88.4 Min 27 Max 99
Symbol Quality: Avg. 99.7 Min 0 Max 100
5/4 23:08-23:25
S/N Quality: Avg. 88.9 Min 0 Max 100
Symbol Quality: Avg. 99.8 Min 0 Max 100
5/5 07:35-07:52
S/N Quality: Avg. 88.9 Min 75 Max 100
Symbol Quality: Avg. 99.9 Min 16 Max 100
5/5 08:40-08:57
S/N Quality: Avg. 87.2 Min 0 Max 100
Symbol Quality: Avg. 96.9 Min 0 Max 100
5/5 19:01-19:17
S/N Quality: Avg. 89.2 Min 75 Max 100
Symbol Quality: Avg. 99.9 Min 14 Max 100

So, based on the fact that I am not seeing a drop in Signal Strength, and that many times I am seeing the Symbol Quality go to zero (or close to it) without the S/N Quality going to zero (guaranteeing that KUSA is still sending ATSC packets, even if I'm wrong regarding my conclusions regarding Signal Strength), my first conclusion would be that the problems I am seeing are due to interference. However, it looks like you saw a problem during the same period (5/5 07:35-07:52). So, if the problem is due to interference then wouldn't it have to be something that covers a really wide area (my conjecture that it could be adjacent channel interference from KKTV might qualify)? Could an interference source near the transmitter cause everyone to have problems? For that to be true, wouldn't the interference source have to be at a similar power level as the transmitter (i.e. the further you are away from the transmitter the more susceptible you are to local interference, but to be susceptible to interference from a distance that interference would have to be increasingly powerful)? Could KMGH and KUSA be interacting badly at times, since they share the same antenna (probably not, at least as long as everything is performing as designed)?

The other possibility would be a defect somewhere near the end of KUSA's transmit chain (e.g. the transmitter itself). The most curious readings above are the ones where the minimum S/N Quality was still 75 but the symbol Quality was 16 and 14 respectively (one of those was the one you observed). Normally a S/N Quality of 75 is more than enough to maintain a Symbol Quality of 100. This tells me that the interference/defect was "bursty" i.e. it damaged a lot of packets in such a way that they were uncorrectable, but yet the overall error rate didn't suffer, i.e. normally the errors would be more evenly distributed, affecting a larger percentage of packets, but not damaging any particular packet enough to make it uncorrectable, but in this case the errors bunched up and killed packets while leaving others still correctable. I'm still not sure I can explain such a low Symbol Quality with that explanation. Perhaps the samples, even when taken 25 times a second, are not in sync, i.e. the S/N Quality and Symbol Quality samples are not for the exact same moment, and if they had been I would have seen a much lower S/N Quality that corresponded with the low Symbol Quality reading. Note that the programming API returns all three meter values at one time, but I don't know what the firmware is doing (I'll have to see if I can get some details from the HDHomeRun forums).

Anyway, please keep reporting the time of any dropouts you see. Right now we only have one sample of a dropout that we both saw. I'd like to verify that we are seeing the same dropouts and are not just being subjected to local interference. We can't do anything about local interference. But if we get a few more samples then we can conclude that everyone is seeing the same dropouts and we can rule out local interference or problems in our receiving equipment. At that point it might be worth bringing up the issue with the engineers at KUSA.

I'm probably going to change the software reporting frequency in order to narrow down the time to something in the range of 3-5 minutes.

CEB II

05-06-09, 11:43 AM

jsmar,

Thanks for the excellent tracking and analysis. If we are both seeing the same interference it likely isn't a local interference issue as I'm on a 31 degree magnetic azimuth from (them to me) LOM and a range of less than 10 miles, while you are 30-something miles out and, what, due north of them? Hope someone to the south sees one of these signal problems with KUSA as that might help the analysis.

pkeegan

05-06-09, 07:30 PM

jsmar,
Thanks for the info. This helps explain what I have been noticing although I haven't noticed it for a couple of days now.

kucharsk

05-07-09, 01:29 AM

I would think the low S/N numbers might also signal an issue with their encoder if it's sending out garbage packets.

milehighmike

05-07-09, 02:01 AM

Posted by CEB II:
Hope someone to the south sees one of these signal problems with KUSA as that might help the analysis.
I do live south, at least in relation to most of the posters regarding signal issues with KUSA.

Before KUSA shut down analog and had digital on channel 16, I had dropouts on KUSA almost daily. I would get the 'digital signal lost' message on my E* receiver. The dropouts only lasted a couple of seconds. I remember telling my better half that hopefully the dropouts will end once analog is shut down and the digital operation is the only one the station needs to manage.

Since KUSA's switch to digital on channel 9, those previous dropouts have completely disappeared. The only thing I've experienced, which prompted this post, was that at 9:57 PM tonight, my screen pixelated - green squares on the entire screen - for about 2-3 seconds. I never lost signal and audio was unaffected. This could have been caused by my setup, but I thought I'd throw the experience in as my two cents worth of contribution.

jsmar

05-07-09, 02:11 AM

OK, here are the dropouts that the logging software saw today on KUSA:
5/6 09:31-09:36
S/N Quality: Avg. 89.2 Min 75 Max 98
Symbol Quality: Avg. 99.7 Min 14 Max 100
5/6 12:08-12:13
S/N Quality: Avg. 88.9 Min 77 Max 100
Symbol Quality: Avg. 99.7 Min 30 Max 100
5/6 20:57-21:01
S/N Quality: Avg. 88.7 Min 75 Max 98
Symbol Quality: Avg. 99.7 Min 16 Max 100
5/6 21:55-22:00
S/N Quality: Avg. 91.6 Min 0 Max 100
Symbol Quality: Avg. 99.5 Min 0 Max 100
5/6 22:00-22:05
S/N Quality: Avg. 94.2 Min 60 Max 100
Symbol Quality: Avg. 99.7 Min 11 Max 100

So, did anyone else see these dropouts? The last two were right before the 10 PM news and during the beginning of the 10 PM news.

jsmar

05-07-09, 02:29 AM

The only thing I've experienced, which prompted this post, was that at 9:57 PM tonight, my screen pixelated - green squares on the entire screen - for about 2-3 seconds. I never lost signal and audio was unaffected. This could have been caused by my setup, but I thought I'd throw the experience in as my two cents worth of contribution.

That is interesting. In addition to changing my sampling report time from 25000 samples to 7500 samples, I also added code to keep track of the number of "Symbol Quality" samples that had a value <= 25 and the last time such a sample was seen. In the 21:55-22:00 time period there were 37 low samples (a total of about 1.5 seconds if they all happened at the same time) and the time of the last low sampel was 21:58. So, it looks like your problem corresponds well with my logging, except that it was a complete dropout for me (which might indicate that the problem isn't in KUSA's transmitter chain, because then you should have seen a complete dropout also).

Did you continue watching KUSA news at that point? In the 22:00-22:05 period the number of "low" samples was 25 and the last low sample was at 22:02. So a mere 4 minutes later there was another dropout, although it wasn't as severe. So if you are less susceptible to the problem then perhaps it didn't cause a noticeable problem for you, if you were still watching. I am curious if you were still watching 4 minutes later (and you weren't blinking :))

CEB II

05-07-09, 02:25 PM

milehighmike

05-07-09, 10:29 PM

Posted by jsmar:
I am curious if you were still watching 4 minutes later (and you weren't blinking )
Yeah, I flipped over to KUSA about 9:55 to watch the news, then Leno. I did not notice any other problems after the 9:57 pixelation reported on my earlier post. The 9:57 time was E*'s time (I hit the 'select' button to note the time), so it may well have been 9:58 on your computer.

You've done a good job analyzing this "problem". Do you have any plans to forward your info to Engineer Ken Highberger at KUSA?

cia_viewer

05-08-09, 08:00 AM

Here is what I can 'measure' near 17th and Pace:

7:36 PM 5/7/2009
RF Ch ClSgn Sgnl Dir Location
(34) 2.1 KWGN-DT 100 184 S Lookout
(35) 4.1 KCNC-DT 89 183 S Lookout
(18) 6.1 KRMA-DT 0 180 S Morrison
(7) 7.1 KMGH-DT 0-31 183 S Lookout
(9) 9.1 KUSA-DT 45 183 S Lookout
(38)12.1 KBDI-DTV 62 202 SSW Squaw
(15)14.1 KTFD-DT 81 180 S Morrison
(19)20.1 KTVD-DT 99 183 S Lookout
(21)22.1 KFCT-DT 0-30 327 NNW Horsetooth?
(29)25.1 KDEN-DT 77 108 ESE Dacono
(29)29.3 ????-DT 77 108 ESE Dacono
(32)31.1 KDVR-DT 91 184 S Lookout
(51)50.1 KCEC-DT 88 184 S Lookout
(43)59.1 KPXC-DT 85 108 ESE Dacono
-------------------------
http://www.fcc.gov/mb/engineering/maps/
(33) 5.1 KGWN-DT ? 0 N Wyoming?
(27)27.1 KGWN-DT ? 0 N Wyoming?
(33)33.1 KQCK-DT ? 337 NNW Horsetooth?
(38)38.1 KPJR-DT ? 108 ESE Dacono
(40)41.1 KRMT-DT 0-30 178 S Morrison?
(45)53.1 KWHD-DT ? 178 S Parker?

jsmar

05-09-09, 01:52 AM

Posted by jsmar:

Yeah, I flipped over to KUSA about 9:55 to watch the news, then Leno. I did not notice any other problems after the 9:57 pixelation reported on my earlier post. The 9:57 time was E*'s time (I hit the 'select' button to note the time), so it may well have been 9:58 on your computer.

You've done a good job analyzing this "problem". Do you have any plans to forward your info to Engineer Ken Highberger at KUSA?

Yes, I do plan to do so, I just haven't had the time to write an email with the details. Of course, a few more data points wouldn't hurt. So, if anyone sees a dropout or significant breakup on KUSA, please let us know.

kucharsk

05-10-09, 10:28 AM

Can we just drop the pretense and start calling 9-1 16:9 SD?

I've seen it look bad before, but wow - from last night's Saturday Night Live (this continued throughout the rolling credits, and once the credits stopped moving the picture improved again, implying the broadcast was really, really bitstarved):

http://homepage.mac.com/kucharsk/credits1.jpg
http://homepage.mac.com/kucharsk/credits2.jpg

Don_M

05-10-09, 12:15 PM

jsmar, if you're still looking for KUSA incidents, another one occurred on KUSA, also during SNL, at 10:55 p.m. last night (05/09). Both video and audio were interrupted; macroblocking appeared for a little more than a second, while an audio "blip" was barely noticeable. I happened to have the signal-level meter on screen at the time, and it fell from its normal 77 (from which it rarely moves at that time of night) to the 20s before bouncing right back up again. This wasn't the network feed, and I haven't had multipath dropouts since we replaced the amplified omni with directional VHF and UHF antennas about a year ago.

jsmar

05-10-09, 04:27 PM

jsmar, if you're still looking for KUSA incidents, another one occurred on KUSA ...
I am still interested, but I was playing around with the software last night and was not monitoring during that time. Did anyone else see a dropout at the same time?

pkeegan

05-10-09, 07:30 PM

dljerger

05-11-09, 10:03 PM

When I've seen the message it has been on KCNC, not KUSA.

Mark

This is what appears on KCNC, showed up at the end of Big Bang Theory. Of coarse it wiped out The Official Vanity Card.

kenavs

05-12-09, 01:08 AM

KRMA has changed the date when it claims it will go to a digital antenna mounted on a tower.http://www.rmpbs.org/panorama/index.cfm/entry/434/UPDATE:-Our-DTV-transition-plan-In August 2009, KRMA will increase power of our digital signal from our site on Mt. Morrison from 315kW ERP to 1,000kW (1MW or 1 million watts) We will also begin broadcasting with a new antenna from the top of the tower on Mt. Morrison which, coupled with the increase in power should resolve most of the signal reception problems our viewers experience with in our coverage area.

They seem to have quietly slipped the new date into the notice with no explanation at all. It appears the notice was changed some time today (5/11/2009).

It looks like a significant number of viewers will lose KRMA on June 12 when the regular analog broadcasting ends, and they switch to nightlight.

A minor point. I don't think they have ever been at 315KW ERP. I believe the highest authorized power on the Ice Bridge has been 115KW ERP. I think the 315KW is a TYPO that has been in this notice since it was originally posted on March 19, 2009 when they clained they would do the changes on May 19, 2009.

A bigger point. It is difficult to understand how they didn't realize until now that they would need 3 more months to make the change.

milehighmike

05-12-09, 01:41 AM

I can't name one action KRMA has done "right" for the last three years.

milehighmike

05-12-09, 01:45 AM

cia_viewer

05-12-09, 08:21 AM

KRMA has changed the date when it claims it will go to a digital antenna mounted on a tower.http://www.rmpbs.org/panorama/index.cfm/entry/434/UPDATE:-Our-DTV-transition-plan-
They seem to have quietly slipped the new date into the notice with no explanation at all. It appears the notice was changed some time today (5/11/2009).

It looks like a significant number of viewers will lose KRMA on June 12 when the regular analog broadcasting ends, and they switch to nightlight.

A minor point. I don't think they have ever been at 315KW ERP. I believe the highest authorized power on the Ice Bridge has been 115KW ERP. I think the 315KW is a TYPO that has been in this notice since it was originally posted on March 19, 2009 when they clained they would do the changes on May 19, 2009.

A bigger point. It is difficult to understand how they didn't realize until now that they would need 3 more months to make the change.

Thank you for 'pointing' to KRMAs forum. I posted this there:
We had no news (News Hour with Jim Lehrer) On analog 6.
Is your DTV antenna moved from the ice bridge to the tower? If not, when will that happen? When that does happen will you continue to broadcast on RF18 for a while? In northeast Longmont we get zero KRMA-DTV signal.

Maybe we shall see...

Don_M

05-12-09, 01:23 PM

A minor point. I don't think they have ever been at 315KW ERP. I believe the highest authorized power on the Ice Bridge has been 115KW ERP. I think the 315KW is a TYPO that has been in this notice since it was originally posted on March 19, 2009 when they clained they would do the changes on May 19, 2009.

Concur. I haven't been able to find any FCC filings mentioning 315 kW. The only reference to the Morrison transmitter and antenna (besides the CP for the permanent 1 MW facility) is at http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/ ... num=14040 (http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/cdbsmenu.hts?context=25&appn=101157822&formid=340&fac_num=14040), which contains the request for 115 kW.

A bigger point. It is difficult to understand how they didn't realize until now that they would need 3 more months to make the change.

The reason is money. They've been running an announcement by CEO Doug Price for about a week suggesting that the "sacrifices made by our employees" aren't enough to keep RMPBS viable and asking current members either to increase their contribution by $53 or to join their $10-a-month club. They laid people off last week; here's an online message from Price. (http://www.rmpbs.org/panorama/index.cfm/entry/468/BLOG:-A-message-from-our-CEO) Significantly:

... Due to our $1.5 million budget shortfall, we are moving forward with a reorganization that will enable Rocky Mountain PBS to be more hopeful about the future.

Sadly, the reorganization resulted in the loss of a number of loyal employees...

Sure looks like they lack sufficient cash flow to finish the job this month. If that's the case, this might be just the first extension. This clearly isn't your average recession.

jamjar

05-12-09, 01:31 PM

Thank you for 'pointing' to KRMAs forum.
Is your DTV antenna moved from the ice bridge to the tower? If not, when will that happen? When that does happen will you continue to broadcast on RF18 for a while?

According to the information at the beginning of their page, they now plan on having their new antenna operational by sometime in August. They will probably continue to broadcast from the Ice Bridge with the existing antenna until then.

They will be on RF 18 regardless of which antenna they are broadcasting from on Mt. Morrison.

I posted the following and received an answer from Linda In Viewer services on their page specifically for the Horsetooth Mt. translator (http://www.rmpbs.org/panorama/index.cfm/entry/432/Horsetooth-Mountain-translator-now-functional).

John in LaPorte
Monday, May 11, 2009 4:56 p.m.
It looks like August at the earliest!

FROM:
UPDATE: Our DTV transition plan
In August 2009, KRMA will increase power of our digital signal from our site on Mt. Morrison from 315kW ERP to 1,000kW...

Sounds like a project manager needs motivation!!!!!!!

Linda in Viewer Services
Monday, May 11, 2009 5 p.m.
Hi, John. Unfortunately, motivation is not a sufficient substitute for back-ordered equipment. We will be operating at full power as soon as can do so. Thank you for all your help.

Apparently someone either didn't order soon enough or keep close enough contact with a supplier of critical single source equipment.

jsmar

05-12-09, 01:46 PM

jsmar,

I'm wondering if you've ever done any monitoring of KCNC for dropouts like you've done for KUSA. When I watch KCNC's news at 10:00 PM, I always see green pixelation on the bottom 20% of the video, usually several times. I last watched their news on Sunday, it occurred then, and continued several times during their All Axs (sp?) sports show which follows the news on Sunday nights. I don't notice it during prime time.

No, at least not recently. I watch a fair amount of CBS prime time programming, and haven't noticed a lot of issues. But I don't watch much other KCNC programming. I can switch to KCNC for a while. Note that the "Loss of Input Signal" may not even show up in my monitoring, since that message is a valid ATSC broadcast; however, there might be a blip during the time that the transmitter detects that it is no longer getting a feed and switches to the LOS message.

CEB II

05-12-09, 01:55 PM

Concur.The reason is money. They've been running an announcement by CEO Doug Price for about a week suggesting that the "sacrifices made by our employees" aren't enough to keep RMPBS viable and asking current members either to increase their contribution by $53 or to join their $10-a-month club. They laid people off last week; here's an online message from Price. (http://www.rmpbs.org/panorama/index.cfm/entry/468/BLOG:-A-message-from-our-CEO) Significantly:

Sure looks like they lack sufficient cash flow to finish the job this month. If that's the case, this might be just the first extension. This clearly isn't your average recession.

Their financial problems are with their operating budget, not their budget for DTV conversion. The great economic stimulus package of 2009 included funds for Public TV to implement the DTV conversion. However, their operating budget layoffs may have affected their DTV transition efforts in that the remaining staff is now too busy to effectively project manage the the DTV transition efforts. Thus, things are ordered late, plans are developed late, and FCC submittals aren't carefully proof-read.

kucharsk

05-13-09, 02:02 AM

I'll pledge $10/month to KRMA if they kill 6-2 and 6-3 and start broadcasting full bandwidth HD (like KRMA used to show) 24x7.

Somehow I don't think that will ever happen.

jsmar

05-13-09, 02:28 AM

I'll pledge $10/month to KRMA if they kill 6-2 and 6-3 and start broadcasting full bandwidth HD (like KRMA used to show) 24x7.

Somehow I don't think that will ever happen.

I think we'll eventually see occasional bit starved recompressed PBS HD programming on 6-1. However, I wouldn't be surprised if they add PBS HD on yet another subchannel so that it will be even more bit starved!

I was definitely spoiled when they were passing through the high quality PBS HD feed. But, I agree, we'll never see that again. Note, at the time they were doing that they were still sending V-Me at the same time. They were alternating the second subchannel with PBS HD and Create. But they didn't have the capability to recompress at the time, so the national PBS HD feed must be compressed to a level that allows enough headroom for an additional SD subchannel.

CEB II

05-13-09, 02:53 AM

Had a severe breakup, loss of picture, HD changed to SD and back again tonight during Leno. IIRC, it was at 11:08 PM.

sunshinedawg

05-13-09, 10:59 AM

Apparently someone either didn't order soon enough or keep close enough contact with a supplier of critical single source equipment.

Sounds like they forgot to order the flange again. :rolleyes:

milehighmike

05-13-09, 08:41 PM

Posted by CEB II:
Had a severe breakup, loss of picture, HD changed to SD and back again tonight during Leno. IIRC, it was at 11:08 PM.
I didn't see that as I switched from Leno after the "Jaywalking Quiz Show". KUSA screwed up Leno - SD instead of HD - once each last week and the week before last. I emailed Mark Cornetta. He blamed it on human error. I related to Mr. Cornetta that now that analog is gone, full attention can be paid to the digital operation which, unfortunately, at least as far as not screwing up Leno 20% of the time, hasn't occurred.

pkeegan

05-14-09, 12:06 AM

Ch 7 KMGH had issues with the 2nd hour of Lost tonight. The problems started at 9:00pm and lasted for about 5 to 10 minutes.

CEB II

05-14-09, 12:15 AM

Posted by CEB II:

I didn't see that as I switched from Leno after the "Jaywalking Quiz Show". KUSA screwed up Leno - SD instead of HD - once each last week and the week before last. I emailed Mark Cornetta. He blamed it on human error. I related to Mr. Cornetta that now that analog is gone, full attention can be paid to the digital operation which, unfortunately, at least as far as not screwing up Leno 20% of the time, hasn't occurred.

The event last night all occurred in a matter of seconds. First the picture started to breakup, then about half of it went green, then black, then the SD picture came on, but only lasted a few seconds before it was back to HD and the event was over.

jsmar

05-14-09, 02:34 AM

The event last night all occurred in a matter of seconds. First the picture started to breakup, then about half of it went green, then black, then the SD picture came on, but only lasted a few seconds before it was back to HD and the event was over.

That didn't show up at all in my logging, which I kind of expected after reading your description. The fact that the picture switched to SD momentarily told me that the problem was somewhere in the studio, not late in the transmitter chain or some other post transmitter issue. If you had checked your signal meter during this time it would have stayed at normal levels without any drop. This problem may very well have happened when they were recording the show for later transmission.

cia_viewer

05-15-09, 07:45 AM

According to the information at the beginning of their page, they now plan on having their new antenna operational by sometime in August. They will probably continue to broadcast from the Ice Bridge with the existing antenna until then.

They will be on RF 18 regardless of which antenna they are broadcasting from on Mt. Morrison.

I posted the following and received an answer from Linda In Viewer services on their page specifically for the Horsetooth Mt. translator (http://www.rmpbs.org/panorama/index.cfm/entry/432/Horsetooth-Mountain-translator-now-functional).

Apparently someone either didn't order soon enough or keep close enough contact with a supplier of critical single source equipment.

Does this really mean they will continue to broadcast analog on RF6 and digital on RF18 beyond 12 June and on into August?

And, will they at some point, August?, broadcast RF18 from the tower?

I have had no answer to my http://www.rmpbs.org/panorama/index.cfm/entry/434?CFID=11644125&CFTOKEN=71028645 post:
Wednesday, May 13, 2009 5:44 p.m.
Today, is KRMA-DT broadcast from the ice bridge or tower?

jamjar

05-15-09, 11:01 AM

Does this really mean they will continue to broadcast analog on RF6 and digital on RF18 beyond 12 June and on into August?
KRMA will broadcast "Statutory Analog Nightlight Service" on RF6 from June 12 until July 12.
KRMA will remain in "Statutory Analog Nightlight Service" until July 12, 2009. Statutory Analog Nightlight Service consists of notification information to inform viewers where and how to receive the broadcast programming of Rocky Mountain PBS, now being broadcast exclusively in Digital.

...And, will they at some point, August?, broadcast RF18 from the tower?...
That is their stated objective. As a side note, I do not believe that they are currently transmitting at 315 kW ERP. My signal strength is still the same as it was when the first started transmitting from the ice bridge. Others on this forum have speculated that 315 is a typo and the actual power is 115 kW ERP as stated in their FCC filings.
In August 2009, KRMA will increase power of our digital signal from our site on Mt. Morrison from 315kW ERP to 1,000kW (1MW or 1 million watts) We will also begin broadcasting with a new antenna from the top of the tower on Mt. Morrison which, coupled with the increase in power should resolve most of the signal reception problems our viewers experience with in our coverage area.

I have had no answer to my http://www.rmpbs.org/panorama/index.cfm/entry/434?CFID=11644125&CFTOKEN=71028645 post:
Wednesday, May 13, 2009 5:44 p.m.
KRMA staff is very bad about answering questions.

Today, is KRMA-DT broadcast from the ice bridge or tower?
We all assume that they are still broadcasting from the ice bridge, however, as stated above I don't think you will receive an answer from anyone at KRMA.

WaldorfSalad

05-15-09, 03:02 PM

Here in S. Lafayette I haven't been able to receive KRMA for months! Hopefully things will change after the transition if they boost their signal or relocate their transmitter.

jamjar

05-15-09, 04:54 PM

Here in S. Lafayette I haven't been able to receive KRMA for months! Hopefully things will change after the transition if they boost their signal or relocate their transmitter.

Unfortunately, there are 2 buildings and some higher ground between Lafayette and the antenna location on the ice bridge. It looks like you are going to be dark until sometime in August.

Pretty much the same situation I have except I also have ridge sticking up in the way 13 miles south of my house and I do get the RF47 Horsetooth translator sometimes.

If they do what they say, I think most of us who are North and North East of the tower will be able to receive RF18 with proper antennas. I was really looking forward to May 19 when they slipped the completion date to August.:mad::confused:

pkeegan

05-15-09, 07:10 PM

Does KUSA ch 9 still plan on upping it's power and if so when?
Thanks.

jsmar

05-15-09, 09:57 PM

Does KUSA ch 9 still plan on upping it's power and if so when?
Thanks.
I don't think there has ever been a plan for KUSA to increase power above their current level. They had submitted a request for increased power that was approved late in 2008, so that is the power they are using.

Perhaps you were thinking about KMGH? They have an application for increased power that has not been approved yet.

Both KWGN and KDVR are approved for higher power but they can't go to their approved level until after they terminate analog and remove their analog equipment to make room for new digital equipment.

pkeegan

05-15-09, 10:56 PM

Thanks for the info.
Too bad about KUSA as they are my weakest signal. I had a much higher signal strength when they we on UHF.

cia_viewer

05-16-09, 08:04 AM

KRMA will broadcast "Statutory Analog Nightlight Service" on RF6 from June 12 until July 12.

:
:
:

Does anyone know if "Statutory Analog Nightlight Service" can mean at the same power as now? We receive a 'good' analog signal and a ZERO digital signal from KRMA.

jamjar

05-16-09, 10:51 AM

Does anyone know if "Statutory Analog Nightlight Service" can mean at the same power as now? We receive a 'good' analog signal and a ZERO digital signal from KRMA.

If you're thinking that KRMA programming will be available after June 12 on Analog, I don't think that will happen. All you will see is emergency and DTV transition information.

A large number of KRMA viewers who are currently depending on Analog will be "in the dark" from June 12 until such time as KRMA finally transmits from the "top of the tower" at 1Mw sometime in August.

The following quote is from an FCC document that established Analog Nightlight Service which is at this url: http://www.fcc.gov/Daily_Releases/Daily_Business/2009/db0115/DOC-287915A1.pdf

"Analog viewers will be able to receive Emergency and DTV Transition Information via Analog Signal..."

This was originally for 30 days after Feb. 17 and has been extended to July 12 (30 days after the June 12 analog shutdown).

Rick313

05-16-09, 03:32 PM

Does anyone know if "Statutory Analog Nightlight Service" can mean at the same power as now? We receive a 'good' analog signal and a ZERO digital signal from KRMA.

My assumption would be yes since the intention of the nightlight service is to reach existing analog viewers. It would make little sense to provide the service if it didn't reach all of their existing audience.

If you're thinking that KRMA programming will be available after June 12 on Analog, I don't think that will happen.

I agree with jamjar. According to the RMPBS DTV transistion plan (http://www.rmpbs.org/panorama/?entry=434):

KRMA will remain in "Statutory Analog Nightlight Service" until July 12, 2009. Statutory Analog Nightlight Service consists of notification information to inform viewers where and how to receive the broadcast programming of Rocky Mountain PBS, now being broadcast exclusively in Digital.

Since they specifically state that their programming will be exclusively digital, I wouldn't expect to see any of it on the analog nightlight service. My guess is that the nightlight service will probably be something similar to 9News Weather Plus but with DTV information rather than weather and probably not as fancy.

cia_viewer

05-16-09, 05:45 PM

kenavs

05-16-09, 06:52 PM

OK, then the really big question is when will KRMA-DT broadcast from the tower instead of the ice bridge?

We can get:
RF Ch . . . ClSgn . . . Sgnl . . Dir . . .Location
(15)14.1 . . KTFD-DT . 81 . . 180 S . Morrison
(18) 6.1 . . KRMA-DT . 0 . . 180 S . Morrison

The dates I have seen have been anywhere from 19 May to 12 June ???

We should be able to get RF18 from the tower.

I suppose the "Statutory Analog Nightlight Service" until July 12, 2009 means that on July 12 they will switch to RF6 from the tower ???

Currently KRMA has 2 transmitters at 2 different locations.

They have an analog transmitter on Lookout mountain that has been there a long time on. As others have said, KRMA will broadcast "Statutory Analog Nightlight Service" on RF6 from June 12 until July 12 using that transmitter, and the antenna on that tower. We cannot be absolutely certain what they will broadcast under that service, but I believe you would be kidding yourself if you expext any regular programming that you currently see on Analog 6. I believe you should look forward to mostly endless PSAs interrupted by occasional beggiing and emergency information like tornado alerts. Unless congress and the FCC change the dates again, after July 12, 2009, that transmitter will be turned off completely, and VHF 6 will be unused in the Denver metro area, unless someone files to offer some new service.

Based on the current posts at the KRMA website, it is reasonable to believe that NOTHING WILL CHANGE FOR THE DIGITAL TRANSMISSION ON UHF 18 UNTIL AUGUST 2009, AT THE EARLIEST. UHF 18 is the permanent frequency for KRMA-DT for its primary transmitter. If you cannot currently receive KRMA-DT, from UHF 18 or one of the UHF repeaters, you will probably lose all OTA access to KRMA traditional programming on June 12, 2009. They say they plan to improve the digital transmitter in August, but until a few days ago, they said they would make those improvements on May 19, 2009. The current digital antenna is believed to be mounted on the ICE BRIDGE, and there is no reason to believe that will change before August 2009, if they even meet that date. It is thought that they want to install or use an antenna at the top of the tower that the ICE BRIDGE services, but their statements are less than perfectly clear. They have 2 FORM 340 CPs for digital service they have filed with the FCC to change from their current configuration. The approved one does seem to authorize 1000KW ERP, as does the one the is accepted for filing. Both are for the same location, but there is nothing I have been able to find that indicates anything has been built at that location. I belive this was the sight that JEFFCO issued a construction permit for on April 1, 2008, but I had heard that sCARE was expected to continue to fight that construction. I cannot find any filings with the FCC that authorize them to operate at 1000KW ERP from the top of the tower, that the ICE BRIDGE services.

In summary, if you cannot currently receive KRMA-DT, you should probably expect to lose KRMA programming on June 12, 2009 and to not get it back until August of 2009, at the earliest.

boilerup

05-16-09, 07:19 PM

The 7 and 9 assignments are permanent. The UHF assignements were temporary.

You will need to add a high-VHF antenna to the setup. An Antenna Craft Y5-7-13 or similar will fit the bill along with a UVSJ.

I am using a also using DB4 (UHF) antenna but the literature says that is also does well with high VHF. Is anyone getting high VHF with a DB4?

pkeegan

05-16-09, 11:28 PM

I have a DB4 in my attic. It does pick them up but at rather low signal strengths. I've added a Channel Master 3010 to pick up high VHF and combine it with the DB4. You may have better luck if the DB4 is mounted outside.

jsmar

05-17-09, 04:01 AM

I was at a house in east Fort Collins today (near Ziegler and Harmony), and noticed that they had a set of "rabbit ears" on top of their TV. I looked closer and saw that it was an RCA ANT1250 amplified antenna, with rabbit ears and a loop antenna, which was connected to a Zenith DTT 901 CECB.

This was on the first floor of the house, and location of the antenna wasn't even near a window. I asked the owner what kind of reception they got, and was surprised when they said they got KUSA reliably, and KMGH most of the time. They did not get KWGN, and I don't think they even got KCNC. Still, I would have never guessed that it was possible to pull in KMGH and KUSA with rabbit ears in Fort Collins. I looked up reviews on the ANT1250, and they were decidedly mixed (although some of the bad reviews were from people who didn't bother to plug in the power adapter). Still, I don't think the ANT 1250 is some type of miracle antenna.

kucharsk

05-17-09, 05:34 AM

Another Saturday night, and more screengrabs from KUSA "HD."

They're not pretty:

http://i597.photobucket.com/albums/tt56/kucharsk/et1.jpg
http://i597.photobucket.com/albums/tt56/kucharsk/et2.jpg

ProjectSHO89

05-17-09, 09:18 AM

I am using a also using DB4 (UHF) antenna but the literature says that is also does well with high VHF. Is anyone getting high VHF with a DB4?

If your signals are strong enough, the DB4 will still pick them up although not with the efficiency it can muster on the UHF channels.

Do try it outdoors as the feed line is part of the high-VHF reception and its positioning can have a significant effect on its high-VHF pickup. Worst case, add a high-VHF antenna to the mix to bring up reception on those channels.

ppasteur

05-18-09, 09:37 PM

Hey guys (and gals),
Since KUSA changed to VHF I have been seeing issues with my Samsung Ts360. I know it is geting a bit old, but it was cheap and worked fine for a bedroom OTA box while KUSA was on UHF. Even after the switch it worked OK for a bit. A few weeks ago it suddenly would not lock on KUSA.

It is using the same antenna as a DTT901 and my Haupphauge DVR 2250. I noticed a definite difference in the signal level when KUSA switched to 9 VHF, but all was OK on the other receivers, and still is. Now the antenna is just a little VU 90 from RS. But I am only about 12 to 14 miles from LOM (depending on who you ask) and have LOS from my roof (minus some trees). I originally came from the antenna through a two way splitter, one leg directly to the Samsung, another to my garage where there was a four way splitter driving a couple of FM receivers and a DTT901.

When I started having lack of lock on the Sammy I decided to fix all of my lossy connections. I got up and replaced the 300 to 75 ohm balun at the antenna. I replaced all of the connectors with PPC compression connectors. I removed the two way splitter and went to a low loss dual female inline connector. From there I went to an 8 way CM distribution amp (+4.5 db to each out) and replaced the four way (- 7 db) splitter with the amp. So now I go from the antenna through the dual female to the amp. One each out goes to the two FM receivers, the DTT901, the PC 2250 and one leg to the Sammy. All of the cables have new compression connectors and have been ohmed out for shorts and continuity. All should be good..

Bottom line is that the signal level is up considerably everywhere. For KUSA the 2250 now shows a 20 db s/n versus 17 db before (KMGH shows 30 db). BUT... the Sammy still will not lock. Signal there is at 50% most of the time. It bounces to 80% at times, then it will go to 20% for a second or two...and some times to ZERO. It can sit for a full minute at 50% and still will not lock KUSA. I get 2. 4. 6 (all of them), 7, 14, 20, 31..and a few more with a solid lock on the TS360 through the same antenna and transmission line.

The question is, what am I missing here. Could it be a multipath problem (I kept the antenna aimed as it always has been)? Would replacing the Sammy with a newer generation box help? Should I try a new antenna first (likely cheaper)?

I have beat my head against this till it is sore. I figured some of the folks here might be able to give me a new direction...or at least give me some insight on a better way to proceed...

As usual, all suggestions solicited and well appreciated!

Phil P.

jsmar

05-18-09, 11:31 PM

The question is, what am I missing here. Could it be a multipath problem (I kept the antenna aimed as it always has been)?

You haven't mentioned whether or not your antenna is installed indoors (i.e. in an attic), or outside. An indoor install can have more issues with multipath. Regardless, multipath can always be an issue. The newer generation tuners are significantly improved in their ability to deal with multipath.

Would replacing the Sammy with a newer generation box help? Should I try a new antenna first (likely cheaper)?

You should be able to answer the question regarding a newer generation box yourself, simply by observing the quality of reception on your DTT901. The DTT901 has the newest generation chipset, so if it is providing borderline reception quality then a new box is not the answer.

If you are using the VU90 indoors, is an outdoor install a possibility? That will almost certainly fix the problem. If an outdoor install is out of the question, you could try one of the huge Winegard UHF/VHF-Hi antenna's (HD7697P or HP7698P), as long as they fit.

You haven't mentioned the lengths of your cable runs. A high quality antenna preamp can help in two ways: 1) provide gain before any losses from splitters and long cable runs, and 2) the noise figure of a high quality antenna preamp can be (and usually is) better than the noise figure in your tuner, so boosting the signal before the tuner can effectively improve the S/N ratio. Since you are so close you don't need that much gain. A CM 7778 or even something with less gain (but just as good a noise figure) might help. If you do use a CM 7778 you probably won't need the distribution amp.

rthurlow

05-19-09, 01:09 AM

Up here in Fort Collins, KCNC's channel 35 signal hasn't always been the strongest, but it's been stable. I did better with KCNC than I did with KMGH before the back-to-VHF transition, and could rely on a good signal for a few things like 60 Minutes, Letterman and Big Bang Theory. Now, as of sometime late last week, it's miserable. My HR10-250 Tivo can't lock, and my Dish receiver is showing 60-62%, down a good 10% since this time last week, and at the edge of what's stable for that receiver. I'm seeing slightly better strength but lower stability due to multipath with KGWN now. Has anyone else seen a drop in KCNC's "throw" up here, or anywhere? Conversely, has anyone seen the strength go up, indicating a directional shift? This sucks - I get more stuff from CBS than any other network.

Rob T

jsmar

05-19-09, 06:08 AM

ppasteur

05-19-09, 09:30 AM

You haven't mentioned whether or not your antenna is installed indoors (i.e. in an attic), or outside. An indoor install can have more issues with multipath. Regardless, multipath can always be an issue. The newer generation tuners are significantly improved in their ability to deal with multipath.

You haven't mentioned the lengths of your cable runs. A high quality antenna preamp can help in two ways: 1) provide gain before any losses from splitters and long cable runs, and 2) the noise figure of a high quality antenna preamp can be (and usually is) better than the noise figure in your tuner, so boosting the signal before the tuner can effectively improve the S/N ratio. Since you are so close you don't need that much gain. A CM 7778 or even something with less gain (but just as good a noise figure) might help. If you do use a CM 7778 you probably won't need the distribution amp.

The VU 90 is outside 10 feet above the peak of my two story roof. The cable run is about 30 feet to the first coupler that I replaced the old two way splitter with. From there it is another 20 feet to the CM distribution amp. From the amp to the Sammy, about another 20 feet. I got rid of all of the splitters now that I am using the distribution amp. All of the cable is decent quad shield RG6 cable, now with new compression connectors installed.

I guess that you are right. The DTT901 connected to the same system locks everything just fine. The problem is that I am using component out from the Sammy to drive my display. Anything with a new generation chipset that has component out is a bit pricy for the bedroom setup that gets used maybe half hour per day. I was hoping somebody had specific suggestions on something to try with the antenna or maybe a STB that would be of reasonable cost that could help. I guess that I was not specific on that.

I looked at the CM 7778 when I bought the CM 3418 amp (which has a very good noise figure of 2.7 db). It seemed like overkill at my location. I also bought a Winegard 7697P (sitting in my living room in the box) that I will be installing for my main antenna (not to replace the VU90). That will be used for my main system to try to get some of the low power stuff, and maybe the Springs or Cheyenne..and maybe some DXing. But I would like to do something to fix the problem that I have now without spending the $160 to 200 for something like the Samsung DTB-H260F. Perhaps just replacing the little VU90 with something like the Winegard HD 7694P for $50 and adjusting it correctly might get me there ?? As has been said here many times, this can be a game of inches. I just never thought that at my distance from LOM I would run into this kind of problem..and then with just one channel.

BTW, I am a veteran of the old KMGH coathanger days. That was why I had the huge VU 210 at about 55 feet AGL and ran RG11 to a single set using any number of different amps... AH, those were the days :)

Phil

Don_M

05-19-09, 03:11 PM

ppasteur

05-19-09, 07:31 PM

Phil, another troubleshooting option (if possible) would be to hook up the DTT901 in the bedroom, move the Sammy to the '901's cable, and then observe what happens with both. If results are the same or similar on each box in its new location, that narrows the issue down to the Sammy. If the DTT901 has trouble locking KUSA-DT from the bedroom drop and the Sammy is OK, that would indicate a wiring issue.

If you didn't see really noticeable ghosts on KUSA's analog signal in the past and you got few or no dropouts when its DTV broadcast was on channel 16, then multipath isn't a likely issue.

Well that is some good advice! I do the same sort of thing with computers on a daily basis. It is not practical to put the Sammy where I have either of the DTT901 units. I did take one of them and connected it directly to the RG6 that I was trying to use with the Sammy. I changed nothing else..VOILA, a perfect lock! The signal level bounces around a bit, never lower than about 50% nor higher than 70%.

In the analog days KUSA was my worst reception from LOM. It always had a bit of ghosting. Not the level of multi-path I would have thought would cause a decent digital tuner to lose lock, but it was always there. There was never any lock or drop out problems when KUSA was on 16!

What is curious is that last night I connected a set of cheap rabbit ears to the Sammy and it got a lock on KUSA just fine. Of course I would walk around the room and get breakups...but laying and watching as I usually do, it was fine...?? Maybe there is some overlaod happening, BUT other channels show higher signal levels and work fine.

I ordered a Centronics ZAT 502 HD today. Hopefully it will work.

Thanks for the suggestions!

Phil

cia_viewer

05-20-09, 08:00 AM

May 19 2009 came and went. Did anything happen with the KRMA-DT antenna?

My signal in northeast Longmont is still ZERO!

jamjar

05-20-09, 10:28 AM

May 19 2009 came and went. Did anything happen with the KRMA-DT antenna?

My signal in northeast Longmont is still ZERO!

Hang in there!

Mid August is only 3 months away.:mad:

KRMA staff probably don't feel any sense of urgency now that the date has been officially slipped via the transition plan.

Falcon_77

05-20-09, 10:48 AM

KMGH's application for 48kW has been approved (as of 5/19):

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/pubacc/prod/app_det.pl?Application_id=1285608
http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/prefill_and_display.pl?Application_id=1285608&Service=DT&Form_id=301&Facility_id=40875

cia_viewer

05-20-09, 11:29 AM

Hang in there!

Mid August is only 3 months away.:mad:

KRMA staff probably don't feel any sense of urgency now that the date has been officially slipped via the transition plan.

Yes, but 12 June is less than one month away. => KRMA totally black in northeast Longmont for two months ???

Don_M

05-20-09, 01:15 PM

What is curious is that last night I connected a set of cheap rabbit ears to the Sammy and it got a lock on KUSA just fine. Of course I would walk around the room and get breakups...but laying and watching as I usually do, it was fine...?? Maybe there is some overlaod happening, BUT other channels show higher signal levels and work fine.

I ordered a Centronics ZAT 502 HD today. Hopefully it will work.

Yup, the Sammy's tuner overloaded. Here's why:

VU-90 gain @ channel 9 = ~ +5.5 dB
Rabbit ears gain @ channel 9 = ~ -2 dB

The distro amp's boost isn't relevant because it's there to counteract coax/splitter losses. Using rabbit ears basically amounts to the same thing as adding a 7.5-dB attenuator to the VU-90's feedline. The lock happened because the attenuation reduced the strong signal to the point that it no longer overloaded the Sammy, a pretty common occurrence for digital VHF broadcasts at that distance. Overload hasn't happened on other channels because a) channel 7, the only other VHF-high broadcast at present, is only running about half the power of channel 9 (at least for now (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=16496098#post16496098)), and b) all other broadcasts are UHF (until KBDI fires up its channel 13 broadcast post-transition).

With its newer-generation chip and firmware, the DAT 502 should be significantly better than the Samsung box at overcoming adverse conditions such as overload and multipath interference.

jamjar

05-20-09, 03:05 PM

Yes, but 12 June is less than one month away. => KRMA totally black in northeast Longmont for two months ???

I feel your pain. I replaced my 30 year old VHF antenna with a Winegard YA1713 last week to improve 7 & 9. I had good reception from the translator on Horsetooth for a few days and then 3 days ago the signal went bad.

I just do not think that the board and management really cares about those of us who will not be watching KRMA for the next who knows how long>

kenavs

05-20-09, 03:22 PM

May 19 2009 came and went. Did anything happen with the KRMA-DT antenna?

My signal in northeast Longmont is still ZERO!

Don't you read the responses to your questions?
Your problem is with KRMA. If you want information, call them and beg to talk to John Anderson, head of engineering. I doubt they will connect you, but he is probably one of the few people who really knows what they are up to.

I suppose one other option is to contact the Denver Post and see if you can find someone interested in doing a story on KRMA coverage and qualified to understand the issues. KRMA may find it a little more difficult to duck a reporter.

jafi1

05-20-09, 04:20 PM

KFCT does have a construction permit for Buckhorn Mt. 11 miles west of downtown Fort Collins at 850 kw ERP.

I'm not aware that they have started it up yet and I do not see it at all from my location 9 mi east north east of the tower location. However that would be 90 degrees off the side of my Winegard UHF YAGI antenna.

If I eventually get KFCT, OK if I don't that is also Ok since I get KDVR with a strong signal.

I've been having all sorts of reception issues recently with KFCT, digital and analog. I usually get the analog with no problems and when the digital locks it's fine. Both are cutting in and out and the digital freezes so much it's unwatchable. Have they been changing power or something?

Jim McCauley

05-20-09, 05:07 PM

Here north of Fort Collins, I had a total LOS from RF 47 for several hours on Tuesday (yesterday), and then it came back up. After a brief dip in mid-afternoon, it was back up to "just usable" in time for _Nightly Business Report_ at 5:30 PM, and it has remained at that level since, at least when I have checked.

My fingers ache from all the crossing...

Jim McCauley

cia_viewer

05-21-09, 07:10 PM

Don't you read the responses to your questions?
Your problem is with KRMA. If you want information, call them and beg to talk to John Anderson, head of engineering. I doubt they will connect you, but he is probably one of the few people who really knows what they are up to.

...

I had a very interesting and informative chat with Mr. Anderson:
(I will try to recapture it here)
Testing proved that the old channel 20 antenna will not work for KRMA-DT at RF18.
They have removed the old channel 20 Analog transmitter (It has served for many years and the removal provided nostalgia.) There is now room for the new transmitter.

The new antenna (and transmitter) are scheduled to arrive 1 August 2009. They believe they can have it installed by 10 August 2009 and operating at full power. They will keep the smaller transmitter that is, now powering the Ice Bridge antenna, available as back up for the new transmitter.

He thinks the new antenna (above channel 14 on the tower) and the new transmitter will be able to reach Fort Collins nicely!

The installation crew will be able to install a new transmitter for the Colorado Springs PBS station (channel 8) a little earlier than expected. They will be using the existing antenna.

kenavs

05-21-09, 08:37 PM

I had a very interesting and informative chat with Mr. Anderson:
(I will try to recapture it here)
Testing proved that the old channel 20 antenna will not work for KRMA-DT at RF18.
They have removed the old channel 20 Analog transmitter (It has served for many years and the removal provided nostalgia.) There is now room for the new transmitter.

The new antenna (and transmitter) are scheduled to arrive 1 August 2009. They believe they can have it installed by 10 August 2009 and operating at full power. They will keep the smaller transmitter that is, now powering the Ice Bridge antenna, available as back up for the new transmitter.

He thinks the new antenna (above channel 14 on the tower) and the new transmitter will be able to reach Fort Collins nicely!

The installation crew will be able to install a new transmitter for the Colorado Springs PBS station (channel 8) a little earlier than expected. They will be using the existing antenna.
Congratulations on getting through to John Anderson, and thanks for the nice report.

jamjar

05-21-09, 10:15 PM

I had a very interesting and informative chat with Mr. Anderson:
(I will try to recapture it here)
Testing proved that the old channel 20 antenna will not work for KRMA-DT at RF18.
They have removed the old channel 20 Analog transmitter (It has served for many years and the removal provided nostalgia.) There is now room for the new transmitter.

The new antenna (and transmitter) are scheduled to arrive 1 August 2009. They believe they can have it installed by 10 August 2009 ...

That certainly explains the delay.
Apparently someone was convinced that the Channel 20 equipment would work, but got surprised at the last minute and had to fall in line to receive new equipment.

Too bad they couldn't be up front about the problem rather than quietly change the completion date with no explanation.

lantzbotz

05-22-09, 01:05 AM

I live in Windsor, CO and had posted a question to this forum about 3 weeks ago. Recapping my situation, I had a DB4 antenna mounted on my roof but was unable to pull in the HD signals from KMGH (7) AND KUSA (9). Per the responses to my post, I ended up adding an AntennaCraft Y5-7-13 VHF ($23+shipping from SolidSignal) to the mix along with a Channel Master CM 7777 pre-amp (which also acts as the UHF\VHF combiner). I made a couple of rookie mistakes along the way but am happy to report that my antennas are installed and I am now receiving strong signals from the 4 majors (KCNC/CBS, KMGH/ABC, KUSA/NBC, and KDVR/FOX), along with a handful of others.

In case it applies to anyone else trying to do something similar, below are a couple of sidenotes regarding my setup:
* Both the DB4 UHF and the AntennaCraft Y5-7-13 VHF antenna "share" the same 6' mast attached to my roof. The VHF antenna sits approx 3' above the top of the UHF antenna. I don't think that's quite up to the scientific specs for how it should be, but it worked.
* Note that the CM 7777 pre-amp is configured by default to receive a combined signal as input. If you have separate UHF and VHF antennas you need to open it and flip the internal switch to "Separate".
* I can't speak to any other VHF antennas but I did want to put a plug in for the AntennaCraft Y5-7-13. It's not only inexpensive, but also a manageable size - something like 60" by 30" (at it's widest) or so. And in my case, it pulls in the signal from 55 miles away despite the fact that Windsor lies at the bottom of hill.
* All told, I think I put about $250 into this project.

Thanks everyone for your input. This forum was a big win for me!