Periodically I'd get a momentary lock on RF channel 24, but I wasn't sure what channel it was because I never got any packets. I thought that perhaps I was getting KRMA's low power translator in Boulder. Last night for the first time I got enough packets to see that it was KRDO from Colorado Springs. I've gotten KKTV fairly often (typically only for a few minutes, but still enough to see video), but this is the first time I've gotten KRDO. I still didn't get enough packets to actually see video, but I got enough PSIP data to determine which channel it was.

Can't. Spacing problem with KFCT-DT 21.

Well, maybe. I don't know about other parts of the country, the the FCC has stacked up a lot of DTV channels right next to one another here in Colorado.

This has made me wonder if the alternate-channel rules of the analog era apply anymore.


Jim McCauley

The rules for adjacent channels, which I should have looked up before I made my last post about KRMA, are:

1. For VHF, no adjacent channels between 30-60 miles.
2. For UHF, no adjacent channels between 20-55 miles.

I don't know how far KFCT's tower is from Morrison. I'm not in a straight line of the two towers, but on TVfool, Morrison is 16 miles from me, KFCT is 71 miles from me. So it seems that the distance between KFCT and KRMA is less than 55 miles.

I'm not too sure how the FCC applies this rule. It seems to me, and I haven't measured the distances via Google Maps, etc, that the LOM VHF's, channels 7 & 9, are closer than 60 miles from the KTSC channel 8 antenna in the Springs.

I've wondered why the adjacent channel rule was really necessary since cable companies have historically put their channels one right after the other on their systems. Perhaps it has something to do with equal vs. non-equal signal strengths.

The rules for adjacent channels, which I should have looked up before I made my last post about KRMA

The rule according to 73.622 or 73.623 (I forget which) is 14-68 miles. Anything in that range is short-spaced.

I don't know how far KFCT's tower is from Morrison. I'm not in a straight line of the two towers, but on TVfool, Morrison is 16 miles from me, KFCT is 71 miles from me. So it seems that the distance between KFCT and KRMA is less than 55 miles.

65 miles to the site specified in their permit. I don't know the distance to the current site.

I'm not too sure how the FCC applies this rule. It seems to me, and I haven't measured the distances via Google Maps, etc, that the LOM VHF's, channels 7 & 9, are closer than 60 miles from the KTSC channel 8 antenna in the Springs.

And they had to sign interference acceptance agreements to make it happen. The interference numbers for 7/8/9 were gigantic, as I recall.

The FCC made a lot of exceptions during the transition in order to squeeze everything in. See New England and the Great Lakes for examples.

I've wondered why the adjacent channel rule was really necessary since cable companies have historically put their channels one right after the other on their systems. Perhaps it has something to do with equal vs. non-equal signal strengths.

That's part of it. The other part is that cable is a controlled system, whereas over-the-air is unpredictable and bleeds. I have a little UHF transmitter that transmits on channels 14-30 (range is only a few hundred feet). I used to use 24 but that got demolished by interference, then my fall back got trashed by interference, and I ended up on channel 14 with a full-service analog on 15. I had to tune my 14 down because to put it where 14 should have been caused audio lines in 15 and distortion in the audio on 14. I had to tune it down slightly and let the AFT in the TVs handle it.

Originally UHF spacing was actually 6 channels because tuners were that imprecise. Analog spacing is now 2 channels.

- Trip

Trip,

I cannot find your 14-68 mile limitation for adjacent DTV channels in the two documents you cited. Rule 73.622 appears to only deal with maximum distances, not minimums. Rule 73.623 appears to only apply to channels 52-59. OET Bulletin #69 also only appears to deal with maximum distances - it cites 100 kM for adjacent channels, or about 62 miles.

The cite I relied upon for my post was the Sixth Further Notice Of Proposed Rule Making, Adopted July 25, 1996 ; Released August 14, 1996, which gives the minimum/maximum distances.

It seems like every FCC document dealing with this subject has different numbers. It also seems that ERP/antenna patterns/terrain issues should play into this issue rather than just dealing with the issue with black & white hard numbers.

But.......since KRMA apparently isn't going to try for RF20, the issue is moot for the Denver DMA.

The rules for adjacent channels, which I should have looked up before I made my last post about KRMA, are:

1. For VHF, no adjacent channels between 30-60 miles.
2. For UHF, no adjacent channels between 20-55 miles.

I don't know how far KFCT's tower is from Morrison. I'm not in a straight line of the two towers, but on TVfool, Morrison is 16 miles from me, KFCT is 71 miles from me. So it seems that the distance between KFCT and KRMA is less than 55 miles.

I'm not too sure how the FCC applies this rule. It seems to me, and I haven't measured the distances via Google Maps, etc, that the LOM VHF's, channels 7 & 9, are closer than 60 miles from the KTSC channel 8 antenna in the Springs.

I've wondered why the adjacent channel rule was really necessary since cable companies have historically put their channels one right after the other on their systems. Perhaps it has something to do with equal vs. non-equal signal strengths.
Am I missing something?

Why would there be a lot of concern about KFCT on UHF 21 in Ft Collins interfering with a possible attempt by KRMA to use UHF 20, when the much bigger issue would appear to be the possibility of interference between KRMA on UHF 18 from Mt Morrison and KTVD on UHF 19 from Lookout. Those are permanent adjacent assignments and I am sure they are less than 10 miles apart.

Is it OK to use adjacent channels if the transmitters are very close? Actually 16, 17, 18, 19, and 20 were all being used by closely located transmitters until KMGH amd KUSA moved and KTVD analog shut down. Would that be OK because the received signal strengths from the adjacent channels would be in the same orders of magnitude, like the cable situation?

Trip,

I cannot find your 14-68 mile limitation for adjacent DTV channels in the two documents you cited. Rule 73.622 appears to only deal with maximum distances, not minimums. Rule 73.623 appears to only apply to channels 52-59.

Observe 73.623(d)(2). There's a pretty looking table that gives all the distances cited: http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2007/octqtr/47cfr73.623.htm

It seems like every FCC document dealing with this subject has different numbers. It also seems that ERP/antenna patterns/terrain issues should play into this issue rather than just dealing with the issue with black & white hard numbers.

The FCC used interference calculations in lieu of hard distance numbers for the transition. New allotments will use both I believe.

Is it OK to use adjacent channels if the transmitters are very close? Actually 16, 17, 18, 19, and 20 were all being used by closely located transmitters until KMGH amd KUSA moved and KTVD analog shut down. Would that be OK because the received signal strengths from the adjacent channels would be in the same orders of magnitude, like the cable situation?

Yes, you are actually right on the money. Digital signals can be side-by-side as long as they're co-located or close to co-located. The station's "mask filter" allows for signal to drop off very sharply before the ends of the channel. As long as the strengths are similar, they won't interfere.

If the distance is too great, a much stronger signal can be distorted and step on a weaker one.

- Trip

Thanks for the cite, Trip.

It seems to me that if KRMA wanted to go to RF20, they would be "weak" where KFCT is "strong" - up north in the Ft. Collins/Greeley area. And they have their RF47 translator to serve that area anyway. Where KRMA would be "strong", metro Denver, KDVR is also strong, so there wouldn't be any interference issue or loss of Fox viewers in metro Denver. Of course, if KFCT is on the auction block, they may not want the negative of accepting KRMA interference. And KRMA is close enough to KTVD on RF19 to also not be any issue.

Well, a hundred years from now, I guess it won't matter. And until KRMA resumes HD programming, it doesn't matter to me at all.

Thanks for the cite, Trip.

It seems to me that if KRMA wanted to go to RF20, they would be "weak" where KFCT is "strong" - up north in the Ft. Collins/Greeley area. And they have their RF47 translator to serve that area anyway.


I don't think we've achieved more than a week of continuous reliable transmissions from the Fort Collins translator. And a lot of people are having problems with RF47 even when it is supposedly working correctly.

For now I'm sticking with RF18, and I expect when they improve the transmitter and antenna in August RF18 will be better than RF47, regardless of whether or not all of the RF47 issues go away or not. So I for one would not like to see them move to RF20.

Of course, all of this is moot, because the FCC would probably take a longer time approving a move to RF20 than it will take KRMA to get their new equipment and get it installed using their existing CP. Besides, I'm not sure any of this makes any sense anyway. A move to RF20 would save the new antenna expense but would incur a new transmitter expense (or at least a retrofit of KTVD's old transmitter). Staying with RF18 incurs a new antenna expense, but they've already purchased a new RF18 transmitter, haven't they?

So I've been out of circulation for a couple of weeks due to major surgery and I started watching KWGN morning news again and discover that Angie Austin is back from maternity leave, but not as the weather person. They've got her doing "fluff" news reports. Natalie is gone now and some wimpy blond has her chair. Jason Boyer is still doing the weather, but just because he can play the guitar doesn't make him a anything but a run of the mill weather person. Angie was much more engaging and entertaining. Did they just give her this current crap assignment because they legally couldn't can her coming off maternity leave?

Anyway, I did some searches and couldn't find anything regarding this latest Channel 2 news shakeup. Guess with all the newspapers cut back, nobody is following this stuff anymore. Anybody know what's going on at Channel 2 or have a link that tells the story?

I don't think we've achieved more than a week of continuous reliable transmissions from the Fort Collins translator. And a lot of people are having problems with RF47 even when it is supposedly working correctly.

For now I'm sticking with RF18, and I expect when they improve the transmitter and antenna in August RF18 will be better than RF47, regardless of whether or not all of the RF47 issues go away or not. So I for one would not like to see them move to RF20.

Of course, all of this is moot, because the FCC would probably take a longer time approving a move to RF20 than it will take KRMA to get their new equipment and get it installed using their existing CP. Besides, I'm not sure any of this makes any sense anyway. A move to RF20 would save the new antenna expense but would incur a new transmitter expense (or at least a retrofit of KTVD's old transmitter). Staying with RF18 incurs a new antenna expense, but they've already purchased a new RF18 transmitter, haven't they?
Do we know for sure that the problem with the old KTVD analog antenna was that it could not be used for UHF 18? Based on the way the UHF antenna was shared by LCG, and some other info I have seen that did not indicate that a typical broadcast antenna was necessarily designed for a single frequency, I did not expect the frequency characteristics of the antenna to be a big problem.

Is it possible that the problem KRMA found when it ran tests on the old KTVD analog antenna had to do with the pattern? KRMA has registered their intended coverage with the FCC and I wonder of that old antena could not be adjusted close enough to that pattern.

The other possiblity that came to me is that some other power transmission characteristic made it impractical to to use the new transmitter to drive the old antenna, and a naustalgia comment makes me suspect the old KTVD transmitter was not worth spending any money on.

Do we know for sure that the problem with the old KTVD analog antenna was that it could not be used for UHF 18? Based on the way the UHF antenna was shared by LCG, and some other info I have seen that did not indicate that a typical broadcast antenna was necessarily designed for a single frequency, I did not expect the frequency characteristics of the antenna to be a big problem.

Antennas that are shared like the LCG antenna are of lower efficiency than specific-channel antennas. Typical broadcast antennas are channel-specific.

Is it possible that the problem KRMA found when it ran tests on the old KTVD analog antenna had to do with the pattern? KRMA has registered their intended coverage with the FCC and I wonder of that old antena could not be adjusted close enough to that pattern.

Possible, but if that was the case, they could have asked for an STA to use the current pattern until a new antenna was delivered.

The other possiblity that came to me is that some other power transmission characteristic made it impractical to to use the new transmitter to drive the old antenna, and a naustalgia comment makes me suspect the old KTVD transmitter was not worth spending any money on.

This is also possible. Some older antennas were "notched." That is to say, they were more efficient on the audio and video carriers and then less efficient in between. In analog, this is not a big deal. In digital, it creates a non-flat curve on a spectrum analyzer, which could result in a signal that receivers are unable to decode.

- Trip

Anyway, I did some searches and couldn't find anything regarding this latest Channel 2 news shakeup. Guess with all the newspapers cut back, nobody is following this stuff anymore. Anybody know what's going on at Channel 2 or have a link that tells the story?

Natalie left the Morning Show to anchor a new 4 PM newscast on KWGN starting June 1.

The other shuffles are due to their changing from the KWGN Morning News to Daybreak on the Deuce.

If you look at the KWGN web site these days it's virtually indistinguishable from something like People, US or TMZ. :(

For example, one of the top leads is a photo essay on "Top Cougars: Women who date younger men."

I Wanted to watch part 2 of "The Last Templar". I thought I lived in Denver, I was wrong. Is this Pittsburgh Or Detroit?

I found this on google:
'The Last Templar' Part 2 will air on a new night - KHNL NBC 8 ...
Entertainment News from TV Guide · Entertainment News from Cinema Source ... "The Last Templar, Part 2" has been re-scheduled on Sunday June 7 at 8:00 PM ...
www.khnl.com/Global/story.asp?S=10447820&nav=menu55_5

Natalie left the Morning Show to anchor a new 4 PM newscast on KWGN starting June 1.

The other shuffles are due to their changing from the KWGN Morning News to Daybreak on the Deuce.

If you look at the KWGN web site these days it's virtually indistinguishable from something like People, US or TMZ. :(

For example, one of the top leads is a photo essay on "Top Cougars: Women who date younger men."

Thanks for the reply and update. It would appear that management has finally found a way for the insufferable Fox Morning News to surpass KWGN morning news in the ratings and that is by decimating the Channel 2 morning show on-air staff. They had excellent team chemistry and interesting personalities with Tom, Natalie, and Angie, and even the clown sort of fit in. I guess I don't fit the demographic they are aiming at and I don't think that demographic even watches TV news, much less morning TV news. I just may have to move over to My20.

Thanks for the reply and update. It would appear that management has finally found a way for the insufferable Fox Morning News to surpass KWGN morning news in the ratings

Recall that KDVR is effectively running the KWGN news operation since KWGN moved into their building, and you may not be far off the mark.

But don't blame Natalie; the opportunity to anchor your own news program is generally seen as a step up the ladder, even if it is a new program in an unproven time slot.

If you look at the KWGN web site these days it's virtually indistinguishable from something like People, US or TMZ. :(

For example, one of the top leads is a photo essay on "Top Cougars: Women who date younger men."

Dude! With a show lineup like this, guys need not apply:

"Gossip Hurl"
"One Tree Hurl"
"Hurlfriends"
"Gilmore Hurls"
"Nine-Oh-Spew-One-Oh"
"America's Next Top Anorexia Patient"

:D

It was interesting to note during this morning's awful weather that my OTA signals from KUSA and KMGH were virtually unaffected by that weather. OTOH, all the UHF DTV channels lost considerable signal. Guess there is something to be said for high-VHF HDTV besides the fact that it saves the station operating costs.

Along those lines, I've been thinking over what to expect on June 12th for the DTV transition and frankly, I don't think anything changes for Denver DTV. Yes, the analog signals get shut off (who cares), but until a lot of other stuff happens a few months down the road, our DTV signals on June 12th will be from the same places, with the same equipment, and at the same power as today. Am I right or did I miss something.

I think the only thing you may have missed is that when KRMA shuts down analog, some folks will lose the station OTA until later this summer.

Along those lines, I've been thinking over what to expect on June 12th for the DTV transition and frankly, I don't think anything changes for Denver DTV. Yes, the analog signals get shut off (who cares), but until a lot of other stuff happens a few months down the road, our DTV signals on June 12th will be from the same places, with the same equipment, and at the same power as today. Am I right or did I miss something.

I believe that on June 12 KBDI has to transition from RF38 to RF13 (It has to wait for KRDO in Colorado Springs to terminate analog on June 12). That will allow KPJR to come online on RF38. KPJR is a new full power digital only station owned by Trinity Broadcasting (religious programming).

I tried to record some old NCIS episodes off of KPXC-DT last night, but I couldn't get a good enough signal (It cuts in and out). I went back over my logs and saw that I haven't gotten good reception from KPXC in over two weeks, and even then the reception was only good for a few hours, i.e. my logs don't go back far enough for me to check when I last got KPXC reliably for an extended period.

I used to get a great signal from KPXC, and I still get a great signal from KDEN which is broadcasting from the same location, with less power (at least according to the FCC website). If KPXC is truly broadcasting at full power (1000 KW ERP) then I should not have any trouble picking them up. Has anyone heard of any equipment failures or other problems with KPXC? Anyone else notice a big change in their reception over the last month or two?

Anyone else notice a big change in their reception over the last month or two?

Not really. I've noticed a few outages here and there but nothing major. I usually record an hour or two of KPXC daily, but it's only affected my recordings once or twice during the past month.

KPXC? Nope, it's stayed solid for me. It does burble around a bit more than KDEN and KTFD, but we're talking 94% +/- 1% on my meter.

My problem children these days are RF 27-35. KCNC is now about the same strength as KBDI, and the latter is going to VHF 13 soon. KDVR on RF 32 is gone now; it used to be more reliable than KFCT RF 21, now it's the reverse. KWGN on RF 34 is there, but weak, though it used to come in on my attic antenna. And my Directivo hasn't seen RF 27 and 30 from Cheyenne for some time. Quite the dip in that range :-(

KPXC? Nope, it's stayed solid for me. It does burble around a bit more than KDEN and KTFD, but we're talking 94% +/- 1% on my meter.

My problem children these days are RF 27-35. KCNC is now about the same strength as KBDI, and the latter is going to VHF 13 soon. KDVR on RF 32 is gone now; it used to be more reliable than KFCT RF 21, now it's the reverse. KWGN on RF 34 is there, but weak, though it used to come in on my attic antenna. And my Directivo hasn't seen RF 27 and 30 from Cheyenne for some time. Quite the dip in that range :-(

I have trouble with most of the stations behind the antenna (RF 21, RF27 and RF 30), but that is understandable, considering that I have my CM 4228 mounted in front of a chimney, so I have part of the roof and the chimney blocking reception, not to mention the i issues with trying to receive a signal off the back of a highly directional antenna. The reception quality of those channels varies from almost no reception to perfect reception.

I don't have any issues with RF32, RF34 and RF35. They come in very strong and reliable. I'm not sure what my issue with KPXC is. I do have some obstructions in that direction (part of the 2nd story roofline and a tree), but I don't have an issue with KDEN. Perhaps it might be related to the tree leafing out, but I believe I had problems before that started. If one of the obstruction's are causing a problem it might be RF frequency sensitive, which might explain the difference between KDEN and KPXC. I believe KPXC may still be planning an antenna change, and according to the FCC site, the new antenna pattern might be a little more favorable for Fort Collins.

As far as KBDI goes, that will be interesting to see. They will be broadcasting in the high VHF range from a very high location. But they won't be broadcasting with the power levels of KMGH and KUSA. Of course, KMGH and KUSA used KBDI's theoretical contour range to make a case for their increased power, so we'll just have to wait and see. I'm not sure they have the option of doing any RF13 testing prior to June 12th, due to interference issues with KRDO.

The audio on KQDK-CA in Aurora has been out for at least a couple of weeks now. Has the same thing been happening on KQCK-DT 11.1? We don't get it here because our attic-mounted high-bander is fixed on LOM, 55 degrees away. Being 4 miles from its tower, the low-power analog (35 kW) offers a good signal.

The audio on KQDK-CA in Aurora has been out for at least a couple of weeks now. Has the same thing been happening on KQCK-DT 11.1?

No quacking lately. KQCK-DT has been off air for the past month or two. Likewise, KQDK-CA has had audio issues for at least the past couple of months. The audio has come back a couple of times for a few days and then goes away again. I've also noticed that their picture quality isn't as good as it was a few months ago. It seems much more grainy to me, but I'm about twice as far from the tower as you are. Fortunately, they don't offer much these days that I'd want to watch, just an occassional film.

I've also noticed that their picture quality isn't as good as it was a few months ago.

It does look (and sound) rather like the "bank-owned property" that it is, doesn't it? :D

Thanks for the 411, Rick.

Something showed up of RF13 this afternoon for about 15 minutes (starting around 3:45 pm). I don't know what it was, because there was no PAT table, and most of the packets were corrupted, but I've never gotten even a sniff of anything digital on RF13 before. My best guess is that KBDI was doing some testing. Perhaps they were doing it at reduced power, hoping they would not interfere with KRDO's (Colorado Springs) analog signal on RF13. I don't know what the rules are in this area; however, I know if I was going to have to flash cut to different equipment / different channel I would want to do at least some testing before the transition date. So, perhaps this was the first test of KBDI's converted transmitter. Hopefully it wasn't a full power test. Perhaps they are planning on doing some extended testing in the early AM hours with KRDO's permission.

EDIT: Never mind. I got some more packets and have been able to identify the station as KTNE, from Alliance, Nebraska, which is part of the Nebraska Public Television network. That's a new DX record for me, although it's only around 180 miles.

Got to say the Fox coverage of the F1 race on Sunday was terrible - they interrupted with commercials at the wrong time and the scroll for the storm covered up most of the data that Fox was showing on the race

Got to say the Fox coverage of the F1 race on Sunday was terrible - they interrupted with commercials at the wrong time and the scroll for the storm covered up most of the data that Fox was showing on the race

You shouldn't complain about the storm scroll. Anytime they actually see a funnel it is time to turn off the TV and head for the basement. Unlike the many things the locals screw up with trivial scrolls, Sunday's weather events were the real thing and we are lucky there weren't any fatalities. After a night spent in a clubhouse basement while at least 5 major funnels ravaged Tulsa, OK back in 1974 and left one dead a hundreds of houses destroyed a block from my location, I have deep respect for those funnel clouds. Now scrolls to tell me about the DTV conversion that is 4 months behind schedule are just a PITA and don't accomplish anything when shown on a DTV channel.

You shouldn't complain about the storm scroll. Anytime they actually see a funnel it is time to turn off the TV and head for the basement. Unlike the many things the locals screw up with trivial scrolls, Sunday's weather events were the real thing and we are lucky there weren't any fatalities. After a night spent in a clubhouse basement while at least 5 major funnels ravaged Tulsa, OK back in 1974 and left one dead a hundreds of houses destroyed a block from my location, I have deep respect for those funnel clouds. Now scrolls to tell me about the DTV conversion that is 4 months behind schedule are just a PITA and don't accomplish anything when shown on a DTV channel.

The amount of scroll was way too much - and yes I have been thru many tornado alerts living here and in St. Louis for many years.

June 12 is almost here, but will much of anything really change for those of us already on DTV?

I believe some channels will be increasing power, but most of those (like 2,4,31) already come in strong for most of us anyway.
KRMA isn't making improvements until August.

It seems the only big change is KBDI (12), which is moving DTV from channel 38 to 13 and increasing power by 40% (and moving higher up on the tower?).
I'm really hoping that I will be able to receive that channel in DTV for the first time.
The KDBI analog signal for those of us NW of Denver (roughly west of 287) was always weak (due to line of sight blockage by mountains), and the digital signal has been pretty much zero. Hopefully that will improve tomorrow.

It seems the only big change is KBDI (12), which is moving DTV from channel 38 to 13 and increasing power by 40% (and moving higher up on the tower?). I'm really hoping that I will be able to receive that channel in DTV for the first time. The KDBI analog signal for those of us NW of Denver (roughly west of 287) was always weak (due to line of sight blockage by mountains), and the digital signal has been pretty much zero. Hopefully that will improve tomorrow.

Start looking for it at any time after noon, by which time KRDO will have vacated channel 13. Its analog termination notice (http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/cdbsmenu.hts?context=25&appn=101300357&formid=910&fac_num=52579) to the FCC, which is binding, says the transmitter will go dark between 6 a.m. and noon (see question 5a). Best of luck to you!

June 12 is almost here, but will much of anything really change for those of us already on DTV?

I believe some channels will be increasing power, but most of those (like 2,4,31) already come in strong for most of us anyway.
KRMA isn't making improvements until August.

It seems the only big change is KBDI (12), which is moving DTV from channel 38 to 13 and increasing power by 40% (and moving higher up on the tower?).
I'm really hoping that I will be able to receive that channel in DTV for the first time.
The KDBI analog signal for those of us NW of Denver (roughly west of 287) was always weak (due to line of sight blockage by mountains), and the digital signal has been pretty much zero. Hopefully that will improve tomorrow.
I agree. It looks like the only event of any significance for you and me is the KBDI move from 38 to 13.

I will experience one very minor thing. When KCNC (Analog 4) is gone, one of my TVs will be able to tune the digital station a little differently. Now, I must enter 4-1 to go directly to the digital channel. When the analog is gone, I will be able to enter 4 or 4-1 to get to 4-1.

I will probably lose KPXC from the tables on my least sensitive TV tuner when I do the rescan. My antenna is pointed all wrong to get that station, and that tuner really struggles to get it. When (and if) KRMA cleans up its act, I hope to do some playing with my antenna setup that may help with KPXC.

I wonder if KRMA nightlight service will continue to provide the time info my recorders use. I need to remeber to keep an eye on that. If they send out something strange, it could be a problem for the recorder time. Even if they maintain it, that would only buy me another month before I will have to maintain the time manually. Fortunately, the drift is tollerable.

I guess I will finally disconnect the VCR antenna input connections, since they will be of no value. I haven't recorded a tape since I got the DVD recorders with digital and analog OTA tuners.

I have not found anything that makes it clear when the KBDI move will happen. It has to be coordinated with KRDO-TV.

Call Sign: KRDO-TV
Channel: 13
Facility Id: 52579
Licensee: PIKES PEAK TELEVISION, INC.
Community of License: COLORADO SPRINGS, CO

On its Mar 16 2009 4:59PM Analog Service Termination Notification, KRDO selected:
(Option 5a Instruction: Select this choice if you will continue analog service until the June 12 transition deadline.)
a. This is BINDING notification that the above-referenced station will terminate analog television broadcast signals (excluding statutory analog nightlight service, if applicable) on the June 12, 2009 transition deadline at the following local time of day:
Early Morning (12:00 AM - 6:00 AM)
* Morning (6:01 AM - 12:00 PM Noon)
Afternoon (12:01 PM - 6:00 PM)
Evening (6:01 PM - 11:59 PM)


If they stay with that, KBDI would not be able to move before 6AM and should be able to move by Noon, at the latest. I have read something that the FCC will not enforce the selection times, but KBDI and KBDO will have to coordinate their activities that presumably will all take place some time on June 12, 2009.

Just a little note: I have seen some people report some hiccups when KUSA and KMGH moved. On my TVs, I will have to do a complete rescan. On my recorders and converters, I can add the new KBDI-DT by telling them to scan on channel 13, but first, I need to delete the entries for KBDI 12-1, 12-2, and 12-3 on UHF 38. Otherwise, they may do something funky with the channel mapping, since they cannot know whether KBDI has left 38 permanently or temporarily.

Edit: I just noticed that Don_M already brought up the KRDO info while I was taking forever to compose my post.

Will cable and satellite be affected by the transition?

I know the 'normal' answer is no, but right now stations are providing a fiber feed with the SD version of their signal to the providers. I assume they are ALSO providing them a second feed for Digital / HD.

At some point (tomorrow?) won't they stop sending TWO signals and consolidate to the Digital / HD feed? Requiring cable / satellite to do the necessary cropping for SD customers?

Will cable and satellite be affected by the transition?

I know the 'normal' answer is no, but right now stations are providing a fiber feed with the SD version of their signal to the providers. I assume they are ALSO providing them a second feed for Digital / HD.

At some point (tomorrow?) won't they stop sending TWO signals and consolidate to the Digital / HD feed? Requiring cable / satellite to do the necessary cropping for SD customers?
I don't have cable or satellite, but I would presume you can use KMGH and KUSA as a model for what your cable or satellite provider will do.

I have not found anything that makes it clear when the KBDI move will happen.

According to their web site (http://www.kbdi.org/digital17.cfm) and on-screen crawl, KBDI will be switching frequencies at midnight tonight.

According to their web site (http://www.kbdi.org/digital17.cfm) and on-screen crawl, KBDI will be switching frequencies at midnight tonight.

That's a little surprising, since last I heard KRDO wasn't going to turn off their analog RF13 service until sometime between 6AM-12PM. Perhaps KRDO is aware of and is OK with this short term potential for interference.

So, KBDI turned on their RF13 transmitter around 11:30 pm, but they are sending what appears to be corrupted packets. It looks exactly like what the KRMA RF47 translator was doing last weekend.

A minute or so after midnight KBDI turned off their RF38 transmitter, but they are still sending garbage on their RF13 transmitter. Based on what I am seeing, I don't think the issue is on my end. I have a great signal strength and signal quality reading, but the symbol quality is zero. Is anyone getting a usable signal from KBDI?

Anyway, given the other statistics, I'm fairly optimistic that this bodes well for good KBDI reception once they fix their problem, assuming it is their problem. I'll edit this note if and when I see any changes.

EDIT: It's now 12:30 AM, and no improvement. KBDI's website is advertising "Digital KBDI is Now at Full Power". I wonder if they know that they have a problem? I was wondering why they chose midnight for a transition, since I didn't think that would be a great time to have an engineer up at Squaw Mountain. My guess is that they did this remotely and now they have noone on site to fix the problem, assuming the problem is at the transmitter site (and based on this looking like the same problem that KRMA had with their RF47 translator, my guess is that this will require someone to go to the transmitter to fix).

Based on what I am seeing, I don't think the issue is on my end. I have a great signal strength and signal quality reading, but the symbol quality is zero. Is anyone getting a usable signal from KBDI?

It's definitely not just you. My Zinwell ZAT-970A is detecting the RF 13 signal at 90% but is unable to detect/add any virtual channels. So far, it appears that the only analog that has been discontinued is KPXC.

No picture for me, although I can get a channel 13 signal strength of ~40 (I'm in an area that has always had trouble with transmissions from Squaw Mtn). For most channels, I would be able to get at least an intermittent picture with a ~40% signal, but there's nothing on 13, and the tuner doesn't register it as a channel on auto-scan either.
Anyone getting 13 yet?

No channel 13 on my 2005 Sharp Aquos and a Samsung H260F after rescanning this morning.

KBDI's signal is showing up at 99-100% (!) here in Fort Collins, but like others, my receiver can't get as far as understanding the virtual channel numbers. It won't add channels to my lineup. I'm impressed by the signal strength I'm seeing, just need something other than carrier :-)

Same experiences here. KBDI signal level doesn't budge from 87/100, almost exactly the same as it used to be on RF 38. Sent them a message using their trouble form (http://www.kbdi.org/about_kbdi/contact_us_form.cfm?type=ts&version=a).

That's not the only issue this morning. While performing blind scan this morning in a second attempt to capture KBDI, we lost KCEC-DT on RF 51. Signal-level meter reads zero, so that transmitter appears to be completely out.

While performing blind scan this morning in a second attempt to capture KBDI, we lost KCEC-DT on RF 51. Signal-level meter reads zero, so that transmitter appears to be completely out.

Yes, I saw this earlier; they appear to be back to normal now. It is a bit of a magic dance to do a full scan, you kind of have to wait until you know everyone is operating properly. I won't scan on my Tivo until my Dish unit likes everything.

It is a bit of a magic dance to do a full scan, you kind of have to wait until you know everyone is operating properly.

Depends on the tuner. When KMGH-DT and KUSA-DT flash-cut to 7 and 9 on April 16, I couldn't capture KUSA without doing a full reset (by pulling the plug for 5 minutes; the tuner doesn't have a delete-channel command), then a blind scan. We have the ability to do additional-channel scans, but that wasn't good enough. So, I went through the same routine with KBDI early today to make sure any memory of RF 38 was completely wiped out.

Luckily, I can add (properly running!) stations by directly entering the RF channel and DTV suffix (i.e., 51-1) on the remote. Will prolly be able to do that with KBDI as well -- that is, once they get the data-stream issue straightened out.

I'm still seeing lots of analog TV up here in Fort Collins -- 15 channels' worth. Of course, many of these are low-power stations, but channels 2, 4 and 6 are still blasting away.

If they are on "nightlight" service, wasn't that supposed to be only a notice board, with no programming at all? KRMA still had Barney the Dinosaur bouncing around in gloriously snowy NTSC this AM...


Jim McCauley

KBDI's signal is showing up at 99-100% (!) here in Fort Collins, but like others, my receiver can't get as far as understanding the virtual channel numbers. It won't add channels to my lineup. I'm impressed by the signal strength I'm seeing, just need something other than carrier :-)

RF38 is now 38 KPJR-1,2,3,4,5. It is some kind of church station (some non-English) I had to rescan again this morning.

I do not know what time KBDI will be actually broadcasting on RF13. No reception in Northeast Longmont, yet.

I saw somewhere that KRMA will continue program content on analog RF 6 until midnight, I hope to get News Hour and Washington Week.

KUSA-DT RF9 is improved signal, now.

KMGH-DT RF7 is still awol.

KBDI got their problem straightened out sometime between 10:45 and 11:10 AM. They have a nice stable signal here in Fort Collins.

KPJR came up on RF38 (Trinity Broadcasting Network) with 5 subchannels at around 8:35 AM. But they are using KBDI's TSID! That's gotta cause some problems! Otherwise their signal also looks nice and strong here in Fort Collins.

Will cable and satellite be affected by the transition?

I know the 'normal' answer is no, but right now stations are providing a fiber feed with the SD version of their signal to the providers. I assume they are ALSO providing them a second feed for Digital / HD.

At some point (tomorrow?) won't they stop sending TWO signals and consolidate to the Digital / HD feed? Requiring cable / satellite to do the necessary cropping for SD customers?

Does anyone know the answer to this?

KBDI got their problem straightened out sometime between 10:45 and 11:10 AM. They have a nice stable signal here in Fort Collins.

Yee-haw! It does look good and strong up here. Very good to see.

Now I just have to send out a search party for KWGN and KDVR, which aren't making it up here. I'm surprised; KWGN would sometimes come in strong enough to lock via my old antenna in the attic, and KDVR on 32 used to be far better than KFCT on 21. Are either planning to boost their power or make other changes?

KPJR came up on RF38 (Trinity Broadcasting Network) with 5 subchannels at around 8:35 AM. But they are using KBDI's TSID! That's gotta cause some problems! Otherwise their signal also looks nice and strong here in Fort Collins.

This is a surprise - I couldn't tell from looking at their FCC data is they were anywhere near ready to power up today. Kinda nice to get more content, too (although I'd hoped, um, something different). Did they just truck the KBDI gear over there? :-) The channels are:

38-1 TBN (same as we still get on analog 48 from Loveland) - http://www.tbn.org/
38-2 The Church Channel - http://www.churchchannel.tv
38-3 JCTV - Christian music & videos - http://www.jctv.org
38-4 Enlace (TBN en Espanol) - http://www.enlace.org
38-5 Smile Of A Child (Kids) - http://www.smileofachildtv.org

Rob T

KBDI got their problem straightened out sometime between 10:45 and 11:10 AM. They have a nice stable signal here in Fort Collins.

KPJR came up on RF38 (Trinity Broadcasting Network) with 5 subchannels at around 8:35 AM. But they are using KBDI's TSID! That's gotta cause some problems! Otherwise their signal also looks nice and strong here in Fort Collins.

Here in northeast Longmont:

When KPJR was using the wrong TSID what were the effects (symptoms)?

My TiVo-HD is still confused about KBDI-DT 12 and RF38. But they can work with KPJR 1-5 38 and RF38. I suppose it is TiVo's problem and maybe they will not do their update until tonight when they think the dust has settled?!?

KUSA RF9 is gone again. (0-40)
KMHG RF7 is still awol (0-35)

Tomorrow, after analog KRMA RF6 is gone, I will disconnect my TERK TV55 and use only my DB8 (hoping it can handle upper VHF e.g.: 7,9,13).

Will cable and satellite be affected by the transition?

The basic answer is no. Any conversions or what have you that need to be done will be done by the provider and should not affect subscribers. However, that is a generalization. To find out how your specific provider may or may not be affected, you need to contact them.

My TiVo-HD is still confused about KBDI-DT 12 and RF38.

Same here. I'm hoping that it will download an update to fix that tonight. If not, we'll have to call support and complain. If it weren't for that, TiVo would be almost perfect.

The basic answer is no. Any conversions or what have you that need to be done will be done by the provider and should not affect subscribers. However, that is a generalization. To find out how your specific provider may or may not be affected, you need to contact them.

It would be extraordinarily rare if it affects the reception delivered to the viewer's home by cable or satellite.

About the only way I can imagine it doing so is if the signal is being provided to the cable/satellite distributor OTA and they screwed up either the antenna or receiver at the head-end.

Well I scanned for new digital channels with my brand new (2009 model) Sony LCD HDTV and found KBDI now coming in as 13-3, 13-4, and 13-5 at over 90 on the signal meter (used to hit 98 to 100 when they were UHF, but I have a pre-amp on UHF and nothing on VHF). So something still isn't correct in their DTV data pack.

I don't get a sniff of anything on channel 38 now, but I now get a DTV channel at 23-1. Don't know what it is because none of its data is translating, just video and audio.

So much for the great analog shutoff. As I scan through the channels, I find that every major channel, except Channels 20 (My20) and 59 (Ion), is still simulcasting on their analog channel the same programming as they have on their DTV channel. Even the major Mexican stations are all still simulcasting on their analog and digital channels. So when are they really going to turn off the analog simulcast?

So much for the great analog shutoff. As I scan through the channels, I find that every major channel, except Channels 20 (My20) and 59 (Ion), is still simulcasting on their analog channel the same programming as they have on their DTV channel. Even the major Mexican stations are all still simulcasting on their analog and digital channels. So when are they really going to turn off the analog simulcast?

I think the "real" cutoff is 11:59:59pm tonight, so I would expect the vast majority of analog signals to be gone overnight. Not sure what the repercussions are if a station fails to pull the plug on-time though...

I don't get a sniff of anything on channel 38 now, but I now get a DTV channel at 23-1. Don't know what it is because none of its data is translating, just video and audio.

You should be able to get 38. Have you tried a full reset/rescan? If you can't get them then I believe you have a problem due to KPJR and KBDI using the same tsid. KPJR is broadcasting from the same location as KDEN and KPXC, although I'm not sure if they are at full power yet (but they are fairly strong in Fort Collins).

I too am seeing something on RF23, but I'm not getting them very reliably, and what I do get doesn't contain any PSIP information. I haven't had the time to do the research to figure out who in this area should even be on RF23, or whether or not we are getting it from a distance, possibly due to some other analog station on RF23 dropping their signal today.



So much for the great analog shutoff. As I scan through the channels, I find that every major channel, except Channels 20 (My20) and 59 (Ion), is still simulcasting on their analog channel the same programming as they have on their DTV channel. Even the major Mexican stations are all still simulcasting on their analog and digital channels. So when are they really going to turn off the analog simulcast?

You are getting stations from Mexico? :D I actually thought that was what you meant, until I realized you were talking about the spanish language channels.

Anyway, everyone needs to terminate analog by midnight tonight unless they are given permission to provide nightlight service for up to 30 days. I believe that KRMA and KCNC are the only stations that asked and are approved to do that. Nightlight service will not contain regular programming, i.e. it should just be DTV transition information and potential emergency information if required.

Low power stations can continue broadcasting analogue indefinitely (no current planned mandatory switch date).

My TiVo-HD is still confused about KBDI-DT 12 and RF38.

I did a scan on my HR10-250, and I get two versions of each of 12-[1,2,3] - one is based on RF 38 and can't be tuned, but has correct guide info, and one is based on RF 13 and has no guide info. KPJR's five subchanels all show up without guide info. So recording will be impaired until updates happen.

Rob T

I don't get a sniff of anything on channel 38 now, but I now get a DTV channel at 23-1. Don't know what it is because none of its data is translating, just video and audio.

So when are they really going to turn off the analog simulcast?

23-1? Interesting. Have to check that out later. As you no doubt know, EWTN affiliate KDEO-LP went dark on 23 a couple of weeks ago. It's hard to know where they'll end up: They applied for a digital translator on 23, and they've received construction permits for low-power digital operations (really low -- ERPs of 5 and 50 watts, respectively) on 20 and 50.

Stations nationwide filed analog termination declarations back in March. The form required each station to select a six-hour time block -- Mid - 6a, 6a - noon, noon - 6p, and 6p - mid -- during which they would shut down analog. IIRC, KDVR 31 chose the afternoon period, and most of the rest were evening shutdowns. Could be off about that, but I'm too lazy to research this all over again. :eek:

I too am seeing something on RF23, but I'm not getting them very reliably, and what I do get doesn't contain any PSIP information.

Oh wow - this is EWTN (Eternal Word, a Catholic TV network). I didn't know they were going digital, and I think they are a low-power in Windsor, CO. They're showing a crawl saying that their antenna took a lightning strike and won't be back on until transition day. I guess they're here :-) I don't have call letters; they're strong here, but there's no sound. I got snowy reception of their analog signal.

EDIT: Thanks, Don M - I'm sure that's KDEO-LP. Is that in Denver?

Rob T

I'm sure that's KDEO-LP. Is that in Denver?

It's licensed to Aurora. The antenna is in Jefferson County, in Bear Creek Canyon Park about a mile northwest of Red Rocks. The channel 23 translator application has an ERP of 2.5kW, but the service contour (http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=LD1299309.html) falls short of Longmont.

It's licensed to Aurora. The antenna is in Jefferson County, in Bear Creek Canyon Park about a mile northwest of Red Rocks. The channel 23 translator application has an ERP of 2.5kW but, unfortunately for you, the service contour (http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=LD1299309.html) falls short of Longmont.

So I did a little research in the FCC database, and this seems a little strange. They applied for a digital translator on RF50, but then got screwed by the transition delay, so they couldn't come up on RF50 until KCEC dropped their signal.

So, they claimed that they had this facility that they couldn't use, so they asked for a STA to operate digitally on RF23 until the transition, when they would move to 50. But, they never came up on RF23 until today, which is when they said they would be moving to 50. The really strange thing is that their STA was approved for 2.5KW ERP on RF23, but they are only approved for 0.05 KW (50 watts!) on RF50. Why would they want to go to 50 if they got approval on RF23 for higher power? As long as the adjacent channels don't complain about interference they should just stick with RF23, or at least get approval for more power on RF50. How far do they actually expect to get with a 50 watt ERP?

Anyway, I am actually getting a fairly strong signal from them when they stay on the air, but they seem to go off and on every once in a while. I don't know if they are actually going off and on, or if I am losing and regaining reception (but when I get them their S/N Quality is around 90-95). They are not sending any PSIP. Their PAT contains a TSID of 1, i.e. the default. Their audio is MPEG-2 rather than AC-3, which is non standard. That will cause problems for some receivers, i.e. you may not get audio even if you get this station.

Well, what happened to KCDO analog 3 which was supposed to move to Fort Morgan on RF23 with a big signal, and is currently on D* as an RTN station?

You should be able to get 38. Have you tried a full reset/rescan? If you can't get them then I believe you have a problem due to KPJR and KBDI using the same tsid. KPJR is broadcasting from the same location as KDEN and KPXC, although I'm not sure if they are at full power yet (but they are fairly strong in Fort Collins).

I don't get KPXC-DT (Channel 59-1) because they are broadcasting behind the two antennas I have, so that's why I don't see any DTV on Channel 38 now I guess. I've pondered setting up another antenna pointed NNE of me when all the dust has settled with DTV, providing its combined signal doesn't screw up the excellent signals I now have for stations to the SSE and S of me. Maybe late this fall I mess with that.

I'll also probably do a complete rescan on all my digital tuners sometime this weekend.

You are getting stations from Mexico? :D I actually thought that was what you meant, until I realized you were talking about the spanish language channels.

I have a problem with political correctness!

Well, what happened to KCDO analog 3 which was supposed to move to Fort Morgan on RF23 with a big signal, and is currently on D* as an RTN station?

Their application is still pending. Obviously the FCC doesn't consider this to be a high priority request. I have my doubts about it getting approved, but I'm surprised there has been no action on it at all during this time. I wonder though if this station could even afford to make the move if their application was approved.

KDVR 31 has turned off their analog.

They are not sending any PSIP. Their PAT contains a TSID of 1, i.e. the default. Their audio is MPEG-2 rather than AC-3, which is non standard. That will cause problems for some receivers, i.e. you may not get audio even if you get this station.

Just as predicted, 23-1 shows video of EWTN, but no sound at all (out-of-standard audio) and no station ID (lack of PSIP). Haven't yet seen the transmitter kick out. It's absolutely booming: KDEO is now in a three-way tie with KDVR and KCEC for highest signal-level reading here -- 92/100. At 2.5 kW, this offers yet more evidence that raw signal strength isn't as crucial as it was back in the analog days.

KDVR 31 has turned off their analog.

Did they do anything on air to announce it, show it, talk about it? If anyone notices a station announcing the exact time they intend to turn off analog, could you post that? I'm assuming that KCNC is going to wait until late tonight to go to night light service.

I thought I'd record KCNC going off, but I realized that I only have a high VHF antenna and I installed a filter that filters out everything below channel 7, so I can't get it. I might go up in the attic and remove the filter and see what I can get of their analog service. Sure, I can watch the sign off in glorious HD digital (assuming they actually do something other than an abrupt cutoff without any sort of announcement), but that would be cheating :).

I have to laugh that some station (I can't remember which one right now), had someone throw the switch "live", and then they actually played recorded snow on the digital station for a few seconds. I thought that was kind of funny (I had already thought that it would be something funny to try before I read about it actually happening).

So far the only station that has done anything to actually take note of this historical transition was KUSA, back in April, but they didn't do it live. They covered what actually happened the next day during the morning news (oldtime KUSA engineers and a retired reporter were present on Lookout Mountain and their first engineer, i.e. the guy who brought the station online for the first time, flipped the switch to turn off the transmitter).

Just as predicted, 23-1 shows video of EWTN, but no sound at all (out-of-standard audio) and no station ID (lack of PSIP). Haven't yet seen the transmitter kick out. It's absolutely booming: KDEO is now in a three-way tie with KDVR and KCEC for highest signal-level reading here -- 92/100. At 2.5 kW, this offers yet more evidence that raw signal strength isn't as crucial as it was back in the analog days.

Yes, I lost their signal for the last time around 2 pm. Since then their signal has been very good (S/N Quality average around 94) and no dropouts. That's incredible for 2.5 kW. I'll be curious to see if they remain consistant over the next few days, or whether they fade in and out, i.e. whether or not I am just getting lucky due to favorable conditions. I haven't checked to see which if any devices can decode the sound.

I got ambitious and did a full rescan on my new Sony (I'll do it again tomorrow after the rest of the analogs are turned off). Noted that KBDI is now correctly showing up as 12-1, 2, and 3 and KDVR analog is no more. So I'm now 3 for 3 getting excellent results with VHF DTV channels. I admit now my fears in this regard were obviously unfounded and I'm glad I was wrong.

23-1 is coming in loud and clear, but w/o and PSIP data. Where is their transmitter located?

I also noted that KPXC, Channel 59 now looks great off my Dish Network feed. Only days or a week or so ago, the PQ on Channel 59 on Dish was horrid as they were still sending their crappy analog feed to Dish. Now that they only have DTV, that signal is going to Dish and the PQ is excellent. This is great news for me since I presently don't get KPXC DTV OTA.

KWGN is going to flip the switch at the end of their news or at near 8 P.M.

KWGN is going to flip the switch at the end of their news or at near 8 P.M.

Yeah, and it's not a good sign that they were having DTV signal problems during 2-1/2 Men tonight. First the blocky frame motion, then loss of HD and back to SD, and finally back to good, solid HD. Come on guys, DTV is now your one and only. Let's not go back to the early days of television when the "we are having technical difficulties" message showed up quite often. After all, the stations have had several years to prepare for this day, even if some didn't really do squat to really perfect their DTV for transition day.

23-1 is coming in loud and clear, but w/o and PSIP data.
I'm getting them clear, but missing the loud part. And no PSIP data as you said.

Also, my Mythbox doesn't seem to be able to figure out the the new KBDI. Plenty of signal through my HDHomeRun, and the little Windows GUI program that comes with the HDHR can view it just fine.

My S3 TiVo absolutely refuses to scan 23-1, no matter what I do.

All my other receivers pick it up as one of my strongest signals.

Is anyone else disappointed that the stations in almost every other market ran retrospectives on their histories and often played the national anthem before flipping the switch but none of the Denver stations bothered doing anything?

This is the type of thing I'm talking about:

Milwaukee's WITI shuts off analog (http://www.fox6now.com/news/witi-090612-analog-sign-off-vid,0,29917.worldnowvideo)

My favorite was one of the Madison, WI stations that had their analog signal drop to the old "Indian head" test pattern for a few minutes before shutting off their NTSC transmitter:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1b/RCA_Indian_Head_test_pattern.JPG/800px-RCA_Indian_Head_test_pattern.JPG

It wasn't a pretty sight when KWGN switched to all digital at 8:00pm. At the switchover the broadcast signal showed a black screen for an inordinate amount of time. Then their broadcast of Privileged was plagued with severe breakups, parts of advertisements would suddenly appear. All in all it was a terrible night for KWGN's swithover.

I'm still seeing a LOT of analog this morning.
Nightlight programming on 4,6,44

Regular programming on 11, 30,33,45,57,61

Also, not getting nearly as strong a signal from KBDI-DT (13) this morning.

So are the Lake Ceder Stations broadcasting at a higher signal strength do to the Analog Shut Off?
When I am in the Mountains, I get no Signals at all from any of the stations.:mad:

I'm still seeing a LOT of analog this morning.
Nightlight programming on 4,6,44

Regular programming on 11, 30,33,45,57,61

Also, not getting nearly as strong a signal from KBDI-DT (13) this morning.

Wow, what kind of antenna do you have?

All I get is static for 33 and 57. 30 comes in more snow than signal, 45, 61 - ok sound terrible picture.

Digital I'm getting 4, 6, 7, 9, 20, 14,25, 38, 59
22 - KFCT comes and goes. At the moment I'm not getting enough signal to lock.
I can see signal but can't lock for channel 2, 13, and 31.
I'm surprised I can see any signal from KDBI at all. If I remember correctly 2 is doing tower work?

Looking at tvfool and antennaweb - I'm considering a Winegard HD 7696P (http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=HD7696P)(roof mounted) to replace the old fishbone antenna that came with the house. Another option is the 7082p. I'd like to avoid a pre-amp if possible since I have no place to easily run to plug one in from the roof.

I'm in SoBo east of Broadway, north of Table Mesa.

I'd like to avoid a pre-amp if possible since I have no place to easily run to plug one in from the roof.
.

The Pre-amp power supply is in the house and supplies power to the mast mounted amplifier over the coaxial cable that brings the signal into the TV.
Mine is situated right behind the TV.

Now that the dust appears to have settled, here is my report:

KWGN-DT (2.1, RF 34) Denver's CW affiliate: stable
KCBC-DT (4.1, RF 35) Denver's CBS affiliate: stable
KRMA-DT, V-me, Create (6.n, RF 47) Denver's PBS affiliate: stable
KMGH-DT (7.1, RF 7) Denver's ABC affiliate: stable
KZCO-DT (7.27, RF 7) Azteca América: stable
KUSA-DT (9.1, RF 9) Denver's NBC affiliate: stable with some motion artifacts
WX-Plus (9.2, RF 9) weather: stable with occasional compression artifacts
NBC Univ (9.3, RF 9) NBC Universal Sports: excessively compressed
KBDI-DT (12.1, RF 13) PBS independent: stable
KBDI-DC (12.1, RF 13) Documentary Channel: stable
KBDI-WV (12.1, RF 13) MHz WorldView: stable
KTFD-DT (14.1, RF 15) Telefutura: stable
KTVD-DT (20.1, RF 19) Denver's MyNetworkTV affiliate: stable
KDVR-DT (22.1, RF 21) actually KFCT-DT; repeats KDVR-DT: frequent breakups
KDEN-DT (25.1, RF 29) Longmont's Telemundo affiliate: stable
KDVR-DT (31.1, RF 32) Denver's Fox affiliate: stable
KPJR-DT (38.n, RF 38) Greeley's Trinity affiliate: stable
KRMT-DT (40.1, RF 41) Denver's Daystar affiliate: stable
KCEC-DT (50.1, RF 51) Denver's Univision affiliate: stable
KPXC-DT (59.n, RF 43) Denver's ION affiliate: stable with occasional compression artifacts

I "broke out" the KUSA complex because its compression strategies make the veiwing experience different for each subchannel.

I also get 6.5, the audio-only "reading channel" from Rocky Mountain PBS, but it does not play through all my tuners.


Jim McCauley

Wow, what kind of antenna do you have?

All I get is static for 33 and 57. 30 comes in more snow than signal, 45, 61 - ok sound terrible picture.


I have a Channel Master 4228 in my attic. I am out in Gunbarrel, northeast of Boulder.

I wouldn't say any of these signals are very good (I've been spoiled by digital), but there's enough there for me to tell what they are broadcasting.

I'm still seeing a LOT of analog this morning.
Nightlight programming on 4,6,44

Regular programming on 11, 30,33,45,57,61

Not sure about 11; that's supposed to be KQCK-DT/Cheyenne, which has not been on air in weeks. All the others are low-power analogs which were not part of the transition. They'll go digital eventually, but their transition is years away as FCC has yet to work out even preliminary procedures.

<rant>
This is why a lot of us were highly critical of broadcasters, "journalists" and public officials, many of whom repeatedly made categorical (and inaccurate) statements such as "the switch to DTV" and "all TV stations are going digital on Feb. 17/June 12, 2009." As you're seeing now, neither was true.
</rant>

For the record, additional analog LP/CA stations are assigned to 27, 39, 47, 48 and 66. There are more than that, but the stations are off the air right now.

The Pre-amp power supply is in the house and supplies power to the mast mounted amplifier over the coaxial cable that brings the signal into the TV.
Mine is situated right behind the TV.


Ah, the light dawns, I only took a quick look at pre-amps (I'd been receiving anything I was interested in so it wasn't a real need), and I didn't actually looking at the wiring setup close enough to connect that the power can go at the end of the run not at the top. (Smacks forehead) - it terrible when the wrong image (short run to power) gets embedded in the gray matter. Thanks for the light switch :o
http://www.cyberestore.com/hdtv-tuners-and-antennas/tv-antenna-pre-amps/winegard-ap-2870-chromstar-2000-series-vhfuhf-pre-amplifier-ap-2870.html

Not sure about 11; that's supposed to be KQCK-DT/Cheyenne, which has not been on air in weeks.
The RF11 signal I am getting is the KBDI low-power station for Boulder.

I really do have to wonder what point there is for most of these LP stations to stay on the air. Granted they don't take a lot of electricity to run, but there can't be more than a few dozen people watching them.

Is grandma really going to say "well, that old TV doesn't get any of my soaps anymore, but at least I can still see a snowy picture of Home Shopping Network" ?

The RF11 signal I am getting is the KBDI low-power station for Boulder.

I really do have to wonder what point there is for most of these LP stations to stay on the air. Granted they don't take a lot of electricity to run, but there can't be more than a few dozen people watching them.

Is grandma really going to say "well, that old TV doesn't get any of my soaps anymore, but at least I can still see a snowy picture of Home Shopping Network" ?

Ditto for me it's the boulder KDBI on 11

Dunno - there seems to be a lot of "little old ladies" that watch the low power shopping and religious channels to judge from the few times I've seen them talking to people calling in when I've watched (in the horrified car wreck you can't turn away from fashion).

The RF11 signal I am getting is the KBDI low-power station for Boulder.

I really do have to wonder what point there is for most of these LP stations to stay on the air. Granted they don't take a lot of electricity to run, but there can't be more than a few dozen people watching them.

If they're off the air for more than 30 days without a reason or without submitting a reason to the FCC, they lose their license.

If they're not prepared to go digital, either financially ready or waiting on equipment, they might as well keep the analogs going.

- Trip

Last night, I simplified my attic antenna to a DB8 only. A big sigh of relief!
Here is what I can receive this morning:
RF Ch ClSgn Sgnl Dir Location
(34) 2.1 KWGN-DT 93 184 S Lookout
(35) 4.1 KCNC-DT 90 183 S Lookout
(18) 6.1 KRMA-DT 0 180 S Morrison
(7) 7.1 KMGH-DT 70 183 S Lookout
(9) 9.1 KUSA-DT 81 183 S Lookout
(13)12.1 KBDI-DTV 54 202 SSW Squaw
(15)14.1 KTFD-DT 91 180 S Morrison
(19)20.1 KTVD-DT 100 183 S Lookout
(21)22.1 KFCT-DT 0-28 327 NNW Horsetooth?
(29)25.1 KDEN-DT 83 108 ESE Dacono
(29)29.3 ????-DT 82 108 ESE Dacono
(32)31.1 KDVR-DT 92 184 S Lookout
(38)38.1 KPJR-DT 82 113 ESE Dacono
(51)50.1 KCEC-DT 86 184 S Lookout
(43)59.1 KPXC-DT 91 108 ESE Dacono

KDEO-LD has apparently cleared up the audio issue; I was listening to Bishop Sheen during the last half hour. Signal's 90+, same as yesterday.

KDEO-LD has apparently cleared up the audio issue; I was listening to Bishop Sheen during the last half hour. Signal's 90+, same as yesterday.
I presume those are reruns or that is a different Bishop Sheen than the Bishop Fulton Sheen I remember from the 50s or 60s.

I live in Centennial and have been getting OTA for several years on an HDTV.

For about the last 6 months channel 6 comes and goes which causes me issues as that is the station that broadcast the TV guide... Anyway is there are logical explaination as to why I get channel 14 (that I don't watch) and have problems with 6? The tower's look like they are in the same line of sight.

I do get reception on 6 on one of my tv's it is the one on a short cable (directly under the antena) the TV that has the issues has a 100ft cable. There are size large trees in front of the house so maybe now that they are fully clothed is the issue.

I could shorten the 100ft cable if anyone believes that would fix the problem...

KRMA is broadcasting from a point very low to the ground, and this is causing severe signal issues. They expect to have a proper digital signal by August, but who knows if that will pan out.

- Trip

It is unfortunate that this nation wide transition seems to be one big disappointment to everyone except comcast/dish/directv ... Thanks for the info I will hold off doing anything radical until end of year.

KRMA is broadcasting from a point very low to the ground, and this is causing severe signal issues. They expect to have a proper digital signal by August, but who knows if that will pan out.

- Trip

The message on the bottom of the KRMA NightLight programming points out that they are running at less than final power. It says they will go to full power on August 10, 2009. The presumption is that they will start using an antenna at the top of the tower at the same time, which should solve the reception problem many of us to the North (Louisville, Lafayette, Longmont, Loveleand, Ft Collins etc.) are experiencing.
I have convinced myself that the current low antenna transmissions are being blocked on Mt Morrison for us. Some have indicated that the Mt Morrison terain creates a similar problem for some areas to the South. Getting the antenna up on the tower, where it belongs, should help all of us. KRMA-DT also claims it will go to 1000KW ERP on 8/10/09 in their NightLight message. I think they are at 115KW at this time.

The message on the bottom of the KRMA NightLight programming points out that they are running at less than final power. It says they will go to full power on August 10, 2009. The presumption is that they will start using an antenna at the top of the tower at the same time, which should solve the reception problem many of us to the North (Louisville, Lafayette, Longmont, Loveleand, Ft Collins etc.) are experiencing.
I have convinced myself that the current low antenna transmissions are being blocked on Mt Morrison for us. Some have indicated that the Mt Morrison terain creates a similar problem for some areas to the South. Getting the antenna up on the tower, where it belongs, should help all of us. KRMA-DT also claims it will go to 1000KW ERP on 8/10/09 in their NightLight message. I think they are at 115KW at this time.

I think a good rule of thumb is that if you can get KTFD reliably now then there is a good chance you will be able to get KRMA reliably after August 10th, if they follow through.

I'm wondering if there will be continued justification for KRMA to run their RF47 translator in Fort Collins after they fix the issues with their main transmitter.

It is unfortunate that this nation wide transition seems to be one big disappointment to everyone except comcast/dish/directv ... Thanks for the info I will hold off doing anything radical until end of year.
Most of the transition problems for Denver Metro can be attributed to a group of Luddites (s)CARE that used the courts to get stations to make bad decissions in their attempts to escape the Lawsuits and silly claims that (s)CARE kept making. We should have wound up with a few towers located close together, but we wound up with a situation that is far from ideal. KBDI on Squaw Mountain has shadowing for many of us. The KPXC group is in the wrong direction for many of us. KRMA-DT wasted time and money with the "Ice Bridge" antenna.

I think the ideal might have been one well designed shared tower on Lookout and a second on Mt Morrison. Two sights that distance apart would have a low probability of being damaged by the same natural disaster, but they would be close enough that, for most metro locations, an antenna aimed between them would generally get both very well.

Unfortunately, sCARE was able to use the courts to prevent the most logical and technically sound solutions from being implemented in a timely manner.

Many of us will have to do more than we should have had to in order to get good OTA reception, thanks to (s)CARE. Still, the digital transition has provided much improved picture quality for me, and I am OK with the capital expenditures I have had to make to get it. Now if there was only a little more decent programming.

I think a good rule of thumb is that if you can get KTFD reliably now then there is a good chance you will be able to get KRMA reliably after August 10th, if they follow through.

I'm wondering if there will be continued justification for KRMA to run their RF47 translator in Fort Collins after they fix the issues with their main transmitter.
Your repeater question makes a lot of sense. I have not had any reason to look into the Fort Collins repeater situation, but I don't think I have heard any mention of repeaters for the LCG stations or KWGN/KDVR. If that is correct, a repeater for KRMA should not be necessary, when and if they clean up their act, since I would think that any antenna system in Fort Collins that gets LCG and KWGN/KDVR would also get the proposed KRMA. I think the Fort Collins repeater was really just a band aid to try and cover up for the Ice Bridge antenna silliness.

I'm getting pretty good signals up here in Fort Collins, with one glaring exception - KDVR.
If it weren't for the KFCT translator, I wouldn't see this at all; it's been AWOL for two-three weeks now after month of being very solid. So I should ask again - is KDVR doing something to inprove their signal from where it is now? Are other northern folks seeing a weaker signal from KDVR?

I'm getting pretty good signals up here in Fort Collins, with one glaring exception - KDVR.


KDVR has always been adequately receivable for me. It is not my strongest signal, but has been very reliable at my location.

Lost my internet from a lightning strike Friday night so I haven't been able to post any updates until this morning. Yesterday, my "loud and clear" signal on 23-1 got reduced to just "clear", no audio. Today it is back to "loud and clear". Still no PSIP data though.

KBDI's new signal remains strong for me, not as strong as the amplied signal I had from their UHF broadcast, but very strong for un-amplified VHF signal 20 some degrees off azimuth from the direction my antenna is pointing.

So now my worst DTV signals are from 2, 4, 6, and 20. I plan to switch out my CM pre-amp for the HDP269 to eliminate the over-driving of the 2, 4, and 20 signals. However, I'm guessing that when I do that, I'll completely lose KRMA, though that isn't much of a loss at this point. But, I'll have to wait until I'm a bit more physically able to climb into the attic.

About 12:15 PM, I rescanned my Phillips DVR. Channel 4.1 appeared with the following info in the description: NCD-4LA. The program was an old B&W movie. Then the screen changed to a blue screen with a NO Signal message. Is there another station in the Denver area experimenting with DTV?

My Sony XBR6 shows the standard KCNC Channel 4 programming on 4.1. Fun stuff continuing with the channel remapping and digital signals!

I do get reception on 6 on one of my tv's it is the one on a short cable (directly under the antena) the TV that has the issues has a 100ft cable. There are size large trees in front of the house so maybe now that they are fully clothed is the issue.

I could shorten the 100ft cable if anyone believes that would fix the problem...

You didn't mention whether or not you are using any amplification. Usually, longer cable runs (100ft or more) requires either a preamp or a distribution amplifier. Either shortening the cable or adding an amplifier or some kind may help the situation. However, it is also dependent on the tuner involved. It is a fact that some ATSC tuners are better than others. Is it possible to swap the TVs at least temporarily? If the problem follows the TV, then it is likely a tuner issue. If not, then some cabling changes may be in order.

It is unfortunate that this nation wide transition seems to be one big disappointment to everyone except comcast/dish/directv ...

That's a huge overstatement! I certainly would not agree nor would most of the members here I reckon. In fact, I was able to cancel comcrap over a year ago thanks to the availability of OTA DTV, something I never would have done if analog were the only OTA option. I'm thrilled that the transition is finally over since most stations are now at full power and we don't have to put up with those annoying commercials and crawls anymore. Yes, there have been a few glitches here and there, but there always is with new technology. Give it time, and I think you'll be very happy in the end.

So now my worst DTV signals are from 2, 4, 6, and 20. I plan to switch out my CM pre-amp for the HDP269 to eliminate the over-driving of the 2, 4, and 20 signals.

Have you tried it without a preamp? I would think that any type of preamp at your distance from LOM would do more harm than good. 2, 4, and 20 are some of my strongest signals using an indoor antenna with no amplification at more than twice your distance from LOM.

So I should ask again - is KDVR doing something to inprove their signal from where it is now? Are other northern folks seeing a weaker signal from KDVR?

I'm not a northerner by any stretch of the imagination, but I have always had somewhat marginal reception from KDVR-DT. However, I haven't really noticed them fluctuating any more than usual lately.

I don't have any first hand information, but it has been said many times on this forum that KDVR and KWGN did not have enough space to house all of their analog and digital equipment at the same time. Thus, they could not have full digital functionality until after the transition at with time they would begin moving out the analog equipment and moving in additional digital equipment. I would imagine that this process has either already begun or will begin this week.

About 12:15 PM, I rescanned my Phillips DVR. Channel 4.1 appeared with the following info in the description: NCD-4LA. The program was an old B&W movie. Then the screen changed to a blue screen with a NO Signal message. Is there another station in the Denver area experimenting with DTV?

My Sony XBR6 shows the standard KCNC Channel 4 programming on 4.1. Fun stuff continuing with the channel remapping and digital signals!
You don't indicate where you are or what model DVR you have, but the Philips may have picked up some stray signal (perhaps from quite a distance) during the scan. Since KCNC-DT is on UHF 35, some channel with a lower actual broadcast frequency may have claimed to be NTSC 4 in its PSIP data. A rescan might clean it up if that station is gone, or cleaned up a PSIP problem.
The other possibility is a manual cleanup depending on the features of the DVR. With my Philips DVDR3575 and 3576 I could manually delete the bogus channel 4 in the Digital tuner list. Then I could set the digital tuner to channel 35. It will do a scan and find the mapping to 4-1. At that point, I could go back into setup and have it add that station to the tables.
Good luck.

Have you tried it without a preamp? I would think that any type of preamp at your distance from LOM would do more harm than good. 2, 4, and 20 are some of my strongest signals using an indoor antenna with no amplification at more than twice your distance from LOM.

I've always had the pre-amp on UHF due to the results I got with the analog signals over 5 years ago when I set up the attic antenna. I know the CM is over-powering some of the channels now, so I plan on using the much lower amplification HDP-269. When I get around to doing that, I'll give the UHF system another try without amplification, but history tells me I'll get marginal or minimum DTV signals at best.

About 12:15 PM, I rescanned my Phillips DVR. Channel 4.1 appeared with the following info in the description: NCD-4LA. The program was an old B&W movie. Then the screen changed to a blue screen with a NO Signal message. Is there another station in the Denver area experimenting with DTV?

That's funny, I remember reading something like this in the DC area at some point...

- Trip

I'm wondering if there will be continued justification for KRMA to run their RF47 translator in Fort Collins after they fix the issues with their main transmitter.

The matter has both technical and political dimensions, and possibly economic ones as well. The translator might merely be a "bridge solution," but if so, it was an expensive one.

I have no inside information, but it is possible that this translator (as well as others throughout the state) might serve as elements for local origination for some regional programming in different areas of the state. This could raise the brand presence and appeal of RMPBS throughout the various regions of its service area. The costs of doing insertions into digital streams are descending rapidly, as are link costs for directing such programming to remote sites like Horsetooth Mountain.

It is my understanding that this is a marketing strategy that is under review by several regional PBS organizations throughout the country. It fits in well with the coming Internet-based program distribution arrangements that will be coming into use over the next few years.

Don't expect this anytime soon, but don't be surprised if it finally comes to pass.


Jim McCauley

About 12:15 PM, I rescanned my Phillips DVR. Channel 4.1 appeared with the following info in the description: NCD-4LA.

I thought about this some more, and I recall it was after a low-powered digital translator had signed on in the area. I found the post. Apparently, factory settings were PEE-4LA and 4-1 as the channel number.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=16138886#post16138886

So my guess is someone's experimenting with their new digital transmission gear over the air.

- Trip

Thanks for the comments above. I finally found the source of my "new" Channel 4.1. It is KDEO transmitting from Mt. Morrison. The web site said KDEO will transition to digital on June 19, but apparently it moved today.

This should not bother me except that the data transmitted maps to 4.1 rather than 23.1. My Phillips DVR found it in its lineup at this mapping. Surprisingly, my Phillips also finds KCNC 4.1 as well just one click up on the channel button. But because the physical channel for KCNC is 35, any recording of Channel 4.1 finds KDEO at physical channel 23 before KCNC. Not good!

My Sony TV also found KDEO on 23.1, 23.2., 23.3., 23.4, 23.5, and 23.2817! The first five subchannels are listed on the KDEO web site as additional programming. Where the 23.2817 mapping occurs is a wild guess.

Strange times in the new digital world.

From the Denver Post today: http://www.denverpost.com/search/ci_12582832

DTV transition came and went for KRMT. I still don't get a whiff of their signal. Apparently they have chosen to remain underpowered and PSIP screwed up after the transition.

Thanks for the comments above. I finally found the source of my "new" Channel 4.1. It is KDEO transmitting from Mt. Morrison. The web site said KDEO will transition to digital on June 19, but apparently it moved today.

This should not bother me except that the data transmitted maps to 4.1 rather than 23.1. My Phillips DVR found it in its lineup at this mapping. Surprisingly, my Phillips also finds KCNC 4.1 as well just one click up on the channel button. But because the physical channel for KCNC is 35, any recording of Channel 4.1 finds KDEO at physical channel 23 before KCNC. Not good!

My Sony TV also found KDEO on 23.1, 23.2., 23.3., 23.4, 23.5, and 23.2817! The first five subchannels are listed on the KDEO web site as additional programming. Where the 23.2817 mapping occurs is a wild guess.

Strange times in the new digital world.

I don't know where you are getting any of those mappings, because KDEO is not sending ANY psip data yet, so it is not sending mappings of any type. So each device is going to behave differently, but most will just used the physical RF channel and map the program using that, i.e. 23.1. I guess I'm a little surprised at some of your devices manufacturing weird mappings on their own -- maybe they just didn't allow for the fact that a non-conforming station might not send PSIP data. Some devices won't even tune a channel if it doesn't have PSIP data (I think some of the RCA CECB's have that problem).

KDEO has made some changes along the way. At first they were using MPEG audio that some devices were able to decode, then they broke the audio such that either they were sending silence or it wasn't decodable by anything. Then they went back to "working" MPEG 2 audio in stereo, but with only the left channel working. Now they've changed to standard AC-3 2 channel audio, but again, there is only audio content in the left channel.

Other changes they've made that only people like Trip and I would care about are that they changed from using somewhat "non standard" (I put that in quotes because actually there is nothing wrong with what they did, it just doesn't match with normal conventions) pids for their video and audio streams to what most stations use for default audio and video pids (i.e. 0x31 and 0x34).

DTV transition came and went for KRMT. I still don't get a whiff of their signal. Apparently they have chosen to remain underpowered and PSIP screwed up after the transition.

Why do you think their PSIP is screwed up, especially if you can't get their signal? The only thing I see that is wrong with their PSI/PSIP data is that they still are using a tsid value of 1, rather than the correct value for their station.

I get KRMT reasonably well here in Fort Collins, but I am amazed that my S/N reading for KDEO is about 10 points higher and KDEO is only broadcasting with 2.5KW ERP.

This forum is a great help. After reading comments about KRMA's broadcasting problems - and my unwillingness to wait until August for the fix - I decided to crawl around in the attic to try to improve reception.

I repositioned the antenna as high as I could get it under the roof peak, about four feet higher, and pointed it ~260 degrees. There are lots of high rise buildings between me and the towers west of my house. Replaced the old RG-59 with 30 feet of RG-6.

Got KRMA back with no dropouts upstairs! Put a passive splitter on & added another 15' of RG-6 for the basement tuner. The upstairs tuner didn't mind the splitter with no change in reception, but the downstairs tuner is getting dropouts about once a minute on KRMA @ 75% and less often on ION @ 95%. I guess I'll need a distribution amp & maybe a separate coax cable to improve the basement tuner.

As an aside, I'm now receiving KDEO channel 23/EWTN @50%, which I haven't seen in probably ten years. Too many new high rises were built blocking the signal.

KBDI 12 switch RF(38) => RF(13) reduced our reception level from 62 => 50
It also confused TiVo. They must notify their contractor who must confirm the changes with individual stations and then report back to TiVo before TiVo can update their database for updating TiVo customers.

Besides KBDI, TiVo did not know about the existance of KPJR 38 RF(38).

This convoluted process may take seven days.

In the mean time, the only way to record KBDI programs is the 'manual method' by specific station and time.


Where is KDEO located?

Thanks for the information. KDEO did appear as channel 4.1 after a rescan and with the program information "NCD-4LA" as displayed by my Phillips 3575. I later rescanned at 9:30 PM and KDEO appeared only as channel 23.1. The erroneous channel 4.1 mapping was gone!

KBDI 12 switch RF(38) => RF(13) reduced our reception level from 62 => 50
It also confused TiVo. They must notify their contractor who must confirm the changes with individual stations and then report back to TiVo before TiVo can update their database for updating TiVo customers.

Besides KBDI, TiVo did not know about the existance of KPJR 38 RF(38).

This convoluted process may take seven days.

In the mean time, the only way to record KBDI programs is the 'manual method' by specific station and time.


What's sad is that at the old analog shutoff date, Tivo appeared to have sent out a scheduled update to change the RF channel, despite it not changing. That also screwed up the guide info the same way - channels with guide info that can't be tuned and channels than can be tuned without guide info.

Mu guide is in better shape than it was awhile back. It now lists KLWY 28.2, which is where they oddly put their high-def content, and KGWN 5.2, which has a Northern Colorado news show. There are still a few odd things in the guide - a 2.2 for KWGN, a 7.2 for KMGH, the KBDI issues, and no awareness of KRMA's RF 47 translator up here in the Fort. If they got KPJR and KDEO into the guide, I'd be great; KRMA 47 would be a bonus if it could be made to work.

I assume you used this method to point out the guide errors? I tried this once, but I don't think anything was ever done, no surprise because my Tivo service account was a Directv account that's closed. I'd encourage everyone with a Tivo account to do this when they see errors.

- go to tivo.com
- click on the "Support" Tab, top right
- type "channels missing" to find an article named "Channels missing or incorrect in Live Guide"
- click on the "Report the issue to Tivo" near the bottom of the text
- Fill in the form; they claim to respond in a week or so

Rob T

Earlier this morning, I scanned - but wasn't able to tune - KKTV and KTSC from here in Fort Collins. I consider this very ironically funny - the reception problems I care the most about involve KCNC and KRMA, and here's the Colorado Springs CBS and PBS stations coming in on a scan.

I was able to tune in KRMT, which I hadn't seen for awhile, but not KDVR.

Rob T

KPJR got their own tsid allocated, and stopped using KBDI's tsid.

Got KRMA back with no dropouts upstairs! Put a passive splitter on & added another 15' of RG-6 for the basement tuner. The upstairs tuner didn't mind the splitter with no change in reception, but the downstairs tuner is getting dropouts about once a minute on KRMA @ 75% and less often on ION @ 95%. I guess I'll need a distribution amp & maybe a separate coax cable to improve the basement tuner.

I'd suggest you look at a pre-amp instead of a distribution amp. Distribution amps are notoriously "noisy" and you may not solve your downstairs marginal signal problem with one. For your situation, a UHF pre-amp rated somewhere in the range of 10 to 15 dB should be adequate.

Thanks for the information. KDEO did appear as channel 4.1 after a rescan and with the program information "NCD-4LA" as displayed by my Phillips 3575. I later rescanned at 9:30 PM and KDEO appeared only as channel 23.1. The erroneous channel 4.1 mapping was gone!

Where is KDEO broadcasting from? Wyoming?, ...?

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=LD1299309.html

- Trip

Remember that KUSA transition promo where they show switching out the swept forward VHF antenna for a Clearstream UHF antenna even though KUSA was going from channel 16 back to channel 9 and the Clearstream would be useless?

I was doing some handyman work at a home last week when I noticed that the 50 inch Mitsubishi that was on was tuned to KUSA in stretched SD. I asked about this and was told that they had Comcast is SD only. They had discontinued Comcast about 3 years ago but Comcast never shut off their feed, so they were getting SD for free but no HD. The TV doesn't have a digital OTA tuner. They've been watching SD only on an HD ready set for years!

I told them that they could get OTA HD for free with an antenna. They weren't aware of that! I was then led to the attic, where I found the "KUSA VHF" antenna, disconnected. The next day, I brought one of my unused Accurian HD tuners and reconnected the antenna. I could only get the Accurian to tune KUSA, no KMGH, with the VHF antenna, and no UHF channels. The homeowners were amazed at the HD picture on KUSA.

We got on the web and found a $35 UHF yagi at RS in Parker. I thought I could combine the VHF antenna with the UHF RS to get everything but KMGH. The homeowner purchased the antenna and I mounted it in the attic. I disconnected the VHF antenna cable and reconnected it to the RS UHF antenna to see what was receivable. After some careful pointing, I was able to get virtually all of the Denver locals (except KPXC), including the VHF's, with the RS UHF antenna. Makes you wonder why a VHF antenna wouldn't pick up KMGH but a UHF did????

I sold the Accurian tuner to the homeowners and I believe they couldn't be happier. I have to wonder how many other HDTV owners are watching everything in SD! Based on this experience, it's probably more that one can imagine.

I'd suggest you look at a pre-amp instead of a distribution amp. Distribution amps are notoriously "noisy" and you may not solve your downstairs marginal signal problem with one. For your situation, a UHF pre-amp rated somewhere in the range of 10 to 15 dB should be adequate.

Thank you, CEB II. I have four rooms to wire, the living room and two bedrooms upstairs, plus one in the basement. The living room tuner seems to be fine with a 25 foot run. The basement tuner has drop outs with a 40 foot run. The bedroom tuners will have coax runs of about 50 feet. So I was thinking of getting a Channel Master 3414, four-output distribution amp. Would a pre-amp with a four-way passive splitter be a better choice?

Thanks

Thank you, CEB II. I have four rooms to wire, the living room and two bedrooms upstairs, plus one in the basement. The living room tuner seems to be fine with a 25 foot run. The basement tuner has drop outs with a 40 foot run. The bedroom tuners will have coax runs of about 50 feet. So I was thinking of getting a Channel Master 3414, four-output distribution amp. Would a pre-amp with a four-way passive splitter be a better choice?
Thanks

In my opinion, if any amplification is going to be used, a preamp should always be the first stage of amplification. Antenna preamps have lower noise figures than most (if not all) distribution amps, and in many cases the good preamps have lower noise figures than the input stage of most tuners, which means that it can improve things even if you are only feeding one device. A preamp also has the advantage of being installed right at the antenna, before any further losses are incurred.

A distribution amp should only be considered after a preamp is already installed. A preamp can easily supply enough signal for 4 devices or more. I think it is rare that a distribution amp is justified in a home environment. I would recommend a good four-way passive splitter that allows power to be passed from one of the outputs to the input, in order for the preamp power supply to be installed downstream from the splitter. I use satellite splitters, primarily because you know they have to support power pass, they're sure to have the proper bandwidth, and they are easy to find in places like Home Depot and Lowes (Usually its not hard to find a two way splitter with power pass, but most non-satellite 3 and 4-way splitters I've seen in stores do not support power pass).

KDEO added 3 more subchannels today. The channel names are EWTN 1, White S, EWTN 2, and VIDA. On their website they say that 23.1 will be EWTN, 23.2 will be "White Springs Television Entertainment, 23.3 will be "Adventist TV" and 23.4 will be "Vida Vision". Based on the channel names, they mostly agree with that, except for 23.3. I have doubts about EWTN carrying Adventist programming. I'll have to check later to see what is actually being broadcast.

Note, they are doing something weird with their TVCT tables, i.e. instead of sending 1 table with all 4 programs, they are sending four different tables, each mapping one of the subchannels. I don't think that is standard, but I'll have to go back and check the PSIP standard to be sure. I've never seen any other station do that. Anyway, there's a good chance that this is non standard, which may prevent some tuners from actually being able to tune each subchannel (if your tuner lets you override the mapping and go to the physical subchannel then you should be OK).

EDIT: I checked, and actually what they are doing is OK, according to the standard. The TVCT table can be broken up into multiple sections, and each section can describe as little as one subchannel, so they are within the standard. I've never seen a multi-section TVCT before (sometimes I think that I can probably identify the type of hardware -- i.e. the psip generator -- used at each station, simply based on the contents of their PSIP), so the question becomes whether or not each manufacturer of ATSC tuners has tested that case properly, but it should work if they conform to the standard. Obviously, in this case, my monitoring software does not conform to the standard.

KDEO added 3 more subchannels today. The channel names are EWTN 1, White S, EWTN 2, and VIDA.

Nice to see and hear KDEO clearly for a change. It was always pretty snowy for me in analog. Watched a little bit of Mother Angelic from 1994 today. I always liked her!

I've tried 4 different tuners, and none of them seem to have a problem with the subchannels on KDEO. However, on all of my tuners, EWTN en espanol shows up on 23-3. I assume it is supposed to be on 23-4.

Nice to see and hear KDEO clearly for a change.

Well, at least in the left ear. For some reason they are sending stereo with audio only in the left channel for all subchannels.

Well, at least in the left ear. For some reason they are sending stereo with audio only in the left channel for all subchannels.

I guess I didn't notice that. I was just thrilled to have sound since every time I had checked it before, there was none.

For those using TiVo, I connected to the service at about 3:30pm this afternoon, and it updated KBDI with the correct digital frequency (13). Actually, it created a new entry for each KBDI subchannel, so you might want to check your channel list and delete the entries for frequency 38.

A preamp can easily supply enough signal for 4 devices or more...I would recommend a good four-way passive splitter that allows power to be passed from one of the outputs to the input, in order for the preamp power supply to be installed downstream from the splitter....and they are easy to find in places like Home Depot and Lowes.

Thanks, jsmar. I looked at Home Despot & they have a four-way splitter that passes power on all ports. (I never knew that a splitter wouldn't pass DC.) Looks like I'll use it and a CM7777.

Thank you, CEB II. I have four rooms to wire, the living room and two bedrooms upstairs, plus one in the basement. The living room tuner seems to be fine with a 25 foot run. The basement tuner has drop outs with a 40 foot run. The bedroom tuners will have coax runs of about 50 feet. So I was thinking of getting a Channel Master 3414, four-output distribution amp. Would a pre-amp with a four-way passive splitter be a better choice?

Thanks

A pre-amp should handle your configuration, signal strength-wise, without any problem as long as it is a good pre-amp. No Rat Shack crap here. CM and Winegard make nice, low noise, pre-amps in various amplification ranges.

As to splitters, I usually try to keep them downstream of the power supply input to the pre-amp, but when that's not possible I use the Rat Shack hybrid 2-way splitter/combiners or from Lowe's, the "Digital 2-Way and 4-Way Splitters" by Philips or now maybe RCA. I don't have a RS hybrid splitter handy to give you the specs off of, but it passes power all directions and is rated at least 5-1000 MHz, which more than covers VHF/UHF. The "Digital Splitters", all fancy gold colored plating and looking fat and large, are rated 5-2300 MHz and, as noted on the front face diagram, "All ports Power Pass".

Now wherever you end up putting your splitter(s) and pre-amp power supply, trace the power flow from the power supply to the pre-amp. Any splits between the power supply and the pre-amp should have a DC Block installed on the splits not going to the pre-amp to ensure power integrity and to electrically protect anything connected to that split.

Now wherever you end up putting your splitter(s) and pre-amp power supply, trace the power flow from the power supply to the pre-amp. Any splits between the power supply and the pre-amp should have a DC Block installed on the splits not going to the pre-amp to ensure power integrity and to electrically protect anything connected to that split.

That's another reason I recommend satellite splitters. The bandwidth might be overkill, but they typically only pass power to one port, eliminating the need to install DC blocks on the other ports. Sure, if you can avoid splitting before the preamp that is a better solution, but my cable from the antenna comes into the garage attic, and all the other coax goes to the garage attic, so I pretty much have to do the split there, and I currently don't have any power available in that attic.

Note that at least at Home Depot the satellite splitters were in a different location (same aisle I believe) from the normal TV splitters. The one I am using was made by Ideal Industries. Here's a link to the one I am using:

4-way satellite/TV splitter (http://www.idealindustries.com/prodDetail.do?prodId=85-334&div=2&l1=splitters&l2=satellite_dig_tv_splitters&l3=85-334)

KUSA started sending AFD (Active Format Description) information on their main network channel (9.1) today. People in other areas where this has been enabled have been complaining about the effect it has on some converter boxes (in particular the DTVPal). I've been wondering if the other NBC stations have been sending the right codes or not, so perhaps now I can figure that out for myself (i.e. I want to know if Echostar truly screwed up the implementation of AFD on their boxes as bad as I think they have, or perhaps NBC is partly at fault, due to sending the wrong AFD code).

The problem people have been experiencing is that some converter boxes are forcing 16:9 content (in particular the late night talkshows) to be cropped for 4:3 presentation, rather than letterboxing the content, or allowing the user to choose. The DTVpal is one such converter that is doing that, i.e. you won't have the option of watching Conan/Fallon in 16:9 letterboxed on your 4:3 TV, if things are the same as they are in other markets that have introduced AFD support.

EDIT:
So, Echostar didn't totally screw up. NBC can take part of the blame, because they are sending the wrong AFD code during Conan. For those who care, there are 16 potential AFD codes. 8 of them are either undefined, not recommended, or reserved for future use. 4 more of them are for 14:9 and for non-standard aspect ratios. This leaves 4 codes of interest: 8,9,10 & 15. Codes 8 and 10 mean essentially the same thing, i.e. the program is a full frame 16:9 image. Code 9 means that the program is a pillar-boxed 4:3 picture in the 16:9 image. Code 15 means that the program is a full frame 16:9 image, however, it is 4:3 compatible, i.e. the production was made with 4:3 in mind, so there should be nothing of consequence outside the 4:3 box, so it should be safe to crop it if you care to.

Anyway, NBC says that their talk shows are 4:3 safe, which if you watch them you can see that is mostly the case. So, they should be sending AFD code 15 to indicate that. But they are instead sending code 9, which says the content is 4:3 pillarboxed. In that case the DTVpal crops the image for 4:3 display, and locks out the ability to choose a different zoom setting. Now, I still disagree with this behaviour of the DTVpal, precisely because of what is happening here, i.e. the TV network is sending the wrong code, and if you own a DTVpal you can't do anything about it. Note that the DTVpal does let you change zoom settings if code 8 or 10 is sent. I haven't found a recent case where 15 was sent, so I can't test that right now. I did however find another serious flaw with the DTVpal. Normally AFD is sent many times a second, so when it stops the converter should revert to manual control because the video content has become unknown. However, the DTVpal just goes with the last code sent, so if the last network programming/commercial you watched sent code AFD code 9 then everything else will be locked into 4:3 cropped in the absence of and AFD data. You can change channels back and forth to fix this problem.

So what's up with KRMA-DT?

I've received them just fine for months now, but as of the past few days their signal has been in the toilet - very, very weak for me here - around 24 out of 100 on my S3 TiVo.

For example, they were coming in fine here on the 14th, as my TiVo recorded Hometime with no issues.

Ironically enough, KBDI-DT now comes in fine here ever since their frequency change - a station I couldn't even get a whiff of when they were on their old frequency.

So what's up with KRMA-DT?

I've received them just fine for months now, but as of the past few days their signal has been in the toilet - very, very weak for me here - around 24 out of 100 on my S3 TiVo.

For example, they were coming in fine here on the 14th, as my TiVo recorded Hometime with no issues.

Ironically enough, KBDI-DT now comes in fine here ever since their frequency change - a station I couldn't even get a whiff of when they were on their old frequency.

I haven't seen any change in level here for KRMA on RF18. I find it interesting that you see a change, because I once saw a significant drop for a little more than a month, and KRMA said that there were no changes (but I believe others saw a signal drop also at the time). Hopefully their scheduled August improvements will resolve the problems that most are seeing. I'm also hoping for the promised return of HD programming sometime in the future. I know it will never be as good as it was when they fed it straight through from PBS, but since a lot of PBS content is not fast moving it may not suffer as much from bit starving.

I haven't seen any change in level here for KRMA on RF18.

The drop is massive - no receiver I have can decode them since Monday.

No other stations are affected signal-wise, so it's not my antenna.

Either they moved something or something got zapped on Morrison since Sunday night when my TiVo recorded Hometime.

Edit: Just got off the phone with KRMA Viewer Services.

Engineering has told them they haven't changed anything, but they've been flooded with calls from Louisville and Loveland since Tuesday AM telling them they've lost their OTA signal.

Given what happened earlier this year with KCNC-DT, I suspect either KRMA has been playing with a new antenna or lightning or some other factor damaged their current one resulting in massive signal null in one particular direction.

On my receivers' signal meters their signal is down about 60% from what I've been seeing from Mt. Morrison since they put their transmitter up on the ice bridge.

In fact, their signal is lower than I used to see from KBDI-DT before their switch last week.

KUSA started sending AFD (Active Format Description) information on their main network channel (9.1) today. People in other areas where this has been enabled have been complaining about the effect it has on some converter boxes (in particular the DTVPal).

When I first read about this on another thread, I thought people were just confused or something. I didn't realize that the networks could exercise such big brother control over their viewers. :eek:

The good thing is that the DTVPal is the only converter that I've heard of it affecting. I checked my DTVPal and Zinwell during Jimmy Fallon last night. The DTVPal was indeed locked into Zoom mode and would not allow me to change it. The Zinwell, on the other hand, seemed to be totally unaffected.

So what's up with KRMA-DT?

I haven't noticed any change here. The weather has been slightly warmer this week, I wonder if that could have anything to do with it?

When I first read about this on another thread, I thought people were just confused or something. I didn't realize that the networks could exercise such big brother control over their viewers. :eek:


I've also discussed this in other threads. In my opinion, AFD was not meant for big brother control, it was just supposed to supply useful information to allow (not mandate!) automatic conversion. There is no requirement that a tuner/CECB has to follow it. I think the DTVpal is just poorly designed (in its AFD implementation), but it's not as bad as I thought it was. Of course, it would help if the broadcasters sent the right codes. CECB's like the DTT901 properly implement AFD by having a "Set By Program" setting which uses AFD for automatic control, but still lets you choose other settings manually.

Note also that AFD was primarily targetted at cable/satellite companies who need to continue to support 4:3 TV's without making their customers upgrade (they do have the option of providing free converter boxes). They need the ability to automatically convert the 16:9 format to 4:3 before the customer gets it.

Personally, I think AFD is a well designed technology. The implementation in some CECB's are what is leading to problems. Even in spite of NBC not sending the right code, the DTVpal should not be locking you into that choice. I thought it was kind of cool to watch the network commercials automatically format properly, rather than getting window boxed 4:3 images for those commercials that were sent as 4:3 pillarboxed. Not that I spend a lot of time watching commercials!

Hopefully the TV manufacturers have gotten AFD implemented correctly for the reverse case, i.e. when SD channels start sending AFD to allow automatic conversion from 4:3 to 16:9. All the issues with 16:9 to 4:3 conversion can happen when trying to convert 4:3 to 16:9. Of course, I'd rather see the SD channels transition to HD and/or 16:9 SD, depending on the number of subchannels they are providing. It seems as more and more productions are done in 16:9 format, and as the TV audience rapidly transitions to 16:9 displays it won't make sense to continue using the 4:3 format for SD.

I've also discussed this in other threads. In my opinion, AFD was not meant for big brother control, it was just supposed to supply useful information to allow (not mandate!) automatic conversion. There is no requirement that a tuner/CECB has to follow it. I think the DTVpal is just poorly designed (in its AFD implementation).

I agree. I was actually just being a bit facetious. However, it does concern me a bit that local broadcasters could use this technology to further automate things and possibly screw up HD broadcasts.

This may be a dumb question, but as I understand it based on what I've read here, someone at the station currently has to manually switch from SD to HD and vice versa. So, couldn't they use AFD to automate that switch? If so, that just seems like it would cause more problems with stuff being broadcast in the wrong aspect ratio.

The drop is massive - no receiver I have can decode them since Monday.

No other stations are affected signal-wise, so it's not my antenna.

Either they moved something or something got zapped on Morrison since Sunday night when my TiVo recorded Hometime.

Edit: Just got off the phone with KRMA Viewer Services.

Engineering has told them they haven't changed anything, but they've been flooded with calls from Louisville and Loveland since Tuesday AM telling them they've lost their OTA signal.

Given what happened earlier this year with KCNC-DT, I suspect either KRMA has been playing with a new antenna or lightning or some other factor damaged their current one resulting in massive signal null in one particular direction.

On my receivers' signal meters their signal is down about 60% from what I've been seeing from Mt. Morrison since they put their transmitter up on the ice bridge.

In fact, their signal is lower than I used to see from KBDI-DT before their switch last week.

I just checked and KRMA-DT seemed to be just about as strong as I ever get it, according to my Philips 42PF7320 TV which has my least sensitive tuner. I have not noticed any changes this week. I record the TOH family of programs on my DVDR3576 at 2:30PM on weekdays on 6-3 and they have been OK all week. I often, just glance at the start, to check for a rerun which I just erase. I did happen to watch the whole Thursday program, and it was fine.

The TV and recorder are on my attic mounted antenna arrangement (It consists of an old suburban rated Radio Shack combo antenna and a Radio Shack U-75R combined using a cheap splitter configured backwards) which has a CM7777 preamp.

I have another antenna (A Channel Master CM-3010 Stealth - passive only) in a second floor closet connected to a DISH TR40-CRA CECB which has never gotten a sniff of KRMA-DT, although it gets everything else on Lookout and Mt Morrison. That antenna does a pretty good job on KPXC. I presume the Front-Back on ratio on it is pretty bad, which is actually helpful since KPXC is almost in the opposite direction of Lookout/Mt Morrison from Louisville.

I believe we are within a mile, or so, of each other. The back of my house overlooks the Tamarisk open space, and I am just off Washington.

KRMA-DT does come and go for me. My worst problems have normally been in the winter. It has normally been OK on clear warm days.

At this point, receiving KRMA-DT appears to be more art than science.

I do find it interesting that KRMA tends to bring up the need for more power. I don't really think that is the problem for me in Louisville. Based on FCC data, KDEO broadcasts from a sight very close to KRMA-DT and is only at 2.5KW ERP. My Philips TV had no problem getting KDEO when I checked yesterday. It may be different terain. Interestingly, KDOE is only supposed to be 16.4 M above ground.

I do find it interesting that KRMA tends to bring up the need for more power. I don't really think that is the problem for me in Louisville. Based on FCC data, KDEO broadcasts from a sight very close to KRMA-DT and is only at 2.5KW ERP. My Philips TV had no problem getting KDEO when I checked yesterday. It may be different terain. Interestingly, KDOE is only supposed to be 16.4 M above ground.

I wonder if the people running KDEO even know how large an audience they are reaching. They're obviously doing something right, even if they don't know what it is. If I was the engineer for that station I would not touch a thing as far as making an changes to the transmitter/antenna setup, for fear of messing up what appears to be an optimal situation for them. There are stations with significantly more power and theoretically better location that are not reaching some of the places that KDEO is reaching right now. The only thing I can see in their setup that is different from other low power stations is that they are using a full power channel mask. They did this to try to avoid adjacent channel interference with RF22 and RF24. I'm reading between the lines, but I infer that low power stations are not required to use as stringent a mask. I'm not sure how this would actually improve the ability to receive their signal though.

KQCK just fired up the transmitter. I can't watch right now, so I don't know what they are actually sending in terms of content. Since they changed ownership it's not clear what they will be doing.

One thing looks clear: they haven't bought the equipment to send psip yet.

EDIT: So, I've watched for a little while, and they were showing boxing. According to the TV listings for KQDK-CA (also bought by the same bank) they are showing the same thing. Doing a little research it looks like the programming corresponds to the AMGTV network (Access Media Group), so I guess we now know where the programming will be coming from, at least for one subchannel.

Note: On the AMGTV website I actually found listings for the detailed timings, i.e. every commercial, etc. I wonder if they intended to make that public?

The drop is massive - no receiver I have can decode them since Monday.

No other stations are affected signal-wise, so it's not my antenna.

Either they moved something or something got zapped on Morrison since Sunday night when my TiVo recorded Hometime.

Edit: Just got off the phone with KRMA Viewer Services.

Engineering has told them they haven't changed anything, but they've been flooded with calls from Louisville and Loveland since Tuesday AM telling them they've lost their OTA signal. ...
I can't believe I forgot what happened on Saturday. That was when KRMA Analog stopped broadcasting regular programming. Starting on Saturday, I suspect that a lot of people up north finally tried to tune KRMA-DT and were unsuccessful because of the "Ice Bridge" antenna. When they called in, these people were probably not asked whether they had previously been receiving KRMA-DT on a reliable basis on/or before 6/12/2009. Based on past quality of information flow within and from KRMA, I would think they could easily mix those complaints with yours. Even though you mentioned Tuesday, and probably tried to make it clear that you had been receiving KRMA-DT up until then, the customer service person may not have realized there would be a critical distinction between your complaint and the ones that would have actually started on Saturday, but may not have been large numbers until Tuesday, after parents had tried to solve the problem which was discovered on Monday when the kids could not watch the programs they watch every weekday.

My point is that the customer service / engineering report may not prove anything about your experience. They could be confused, and providing irrelevant information.

Doing a little research it looks like the programming corresponds to the AMGTV network (Access Media Group), so I guess we now know where the programming will be coming from, at least for one subchannel.

Darn! That's been the case for the past 6 months. I was hoping that they had gotten bought out again or at least changed their content provider. AMGTV sucks compared to RTN!

Just for kicks I e-mailed KDEO today and asked about their mono audio. I received a reply from the engineer saying that he/she is working on providing a "split mono feed" soon. I assume that means that they will be feeding the mono audio through both the left and right audio channels. Not true stereo, but close enough I guess. Didn't give a time frame. Just said, "As soon as I can."

This may be a dumb question, but as I understand it based on what I've read here, someone at the station currently has to manually switch from SD to HD and vice versa. So, couldn't they use AFD to automate that switch? If so, that just seems like it would cause more problems with stuff being broadcast in the wrong aspect ratio.

No, during the normal course of broadcasting, there is no manual switching done between upconverted material that was originally SD and HD material. There are a variety of reason why a manual switch might be done, but the one we've seen the most is when a station does not have the equipment necessary to do titling over an HD broadcast. In that case they manual switch to a path which downconverts the HD to SD, then they use their SD equipment to overlay weather alerts or DTV alerts (yay! we're finally done with DTV alerts!) over the video. Finally they upconvert that signal back to HD and broadcast it. The problem is that after the alert is done they might forget to "throw the switch" and go back to HD. Slowly all of the stations are getting the equipment to do HD alerts, in which case we should not see a switch to SD, except possibly if they preserve that path as a backup if something goes wrong with the some of the HD equipment.

So, as long as you don't have a tuner that has a bad design for AFD support, you should always have a choice regarding whether or not to use AFD. The people who do have to worry about this are the people who are watching SD channels on cable or satellite, whose source is an HD channel (and for which the cable/satellite company is using AFD to automate the conversion). But in most cases they should benefit as long as the proper AFD is sent by the network. Right now, without AFD, there is the potential that a station could send upconverted 4:3 material that is pillarboxed, and then the cable company might convert it by letterboxing it, leaving a cable customer with windowboxed content and no option to fix it. Their TV might be able to zoom it, but it won't be at the same quality as it would have been if the cable company has done it (i.e. they cropped the HD picture before the SD conversion).

Darn! That's been the case for the past 6 months. I was hoping that they had gotten bought out again or at least changed their content provider. AMGTV sucks compared to RTN!

I wouldn't lose all hope. I believe that any DTV station that is not planning on having an HD channel will eventually try to use the bandwidth they have to offer multiple SD channels. I expect that we will eventually get other programming on KQCK.

For those who can get KQCK, are you getting it at similar levels to before? I'm getting a fair amount of dropouts, and I'm practically next to the antenna. However, I've completely changed my VHF setup since the last time KQCK was on the air. My signal strength is very strong, but my S/N quality (S/N Quality is the reading that corresponds to what most other peoples signal meters show). is not very good. Since I have a good signal level I suspect the problem is due to multipath problems.

I'm thinking that I might eventually buy a second CM 7777 and run both of my antenna's independently into the two tuners on my HDHomeRun. It seems that my high VHF antenna is better at omnidirectional pickup in the UHF range (Doing a much better job than my CM4228 at picking up stations behind the antenna and in some cases stations that are not in the direction that the CM4228 is pointed at), and now I'm beginning to wonder if the reverse is true, i.e. the CM4228 might be less directional in the high VHF range than my VHF antenna is, since I previously got a great signal from KQCK with my CM4228.

For those who can get KQCK, are you getting it at similar levels to before? I'm getting a fair amount of dropouts, and I'm practically next to the antenna. However, I've completely changed my VHF setup since the last time KQCK was on the air. My signal strength is very strong, but my S/N quality (S/N Quality is the reading that corresponds to what most other peoples signal meters show). is not very good. Since I have a good signal level I suspect the problem is due to multipath problems.


I have a strong signal at my location. Like you, the tower is practically in my front yard. signal levels are pretty much the same as before - stronger than any other signal I receive. No dropouts.

I have a strong signal at my location. Like you, the tower is practically in my front yard. signal levels are pretty much the same as before - stronger than any other signal I receive. No dropouts.

I guess my VHF antenna is more directional than I thought. I get a good signal strength, but it is still the lowest of all my VHF signal strengths. I get 100 for KMGH and KUSA, 98 for KBDI and 93 for KQCK. KQCK is coming in at something like 90 degrees off of where my antenna is aimed (Lookout Mountain). I imagine the angle is much better for you, living close to LaPorte. My S/N Quality is in the low 60's on average, and drops lower sometimes, leading to signal dropouts. That is very low for a signal strength of 93, which leads me to believe that I'm also suffering from multipath problems. I don't see any reason to believe I am having problems with signal overload.

Why do you think their PSIP is screwed up, especially if you can't get their signal? The only thing I see that is wrong with their PSI/PSIP data is that they still are using a tsid value of 1, rather than the correct value for their station.


FWIW, I have a Receiver (an older one -- OTA Only - ZEnith HDV420) Which will not "map to"/ display the TVCT Major/Minor channel numbers for a Low power digital station in my area -- All my other receivers do, however --- That station *IS* currently sending PSIP data(even Including info in EIT's/etc), and, like the station you mention, I don't notice anything wrong with any their PSI or PSIP data ... EXCEPT, However, They are sending TSID of 1 ... Which is not necesssarily "wrong", in this case, as I don't think as a LP station they've been assigned a TSID as of yet ....

Given even their Service Location descriptors in TVCT all seem correct, and the receiver maps/displays to user all other stations in areas TVCT Major/Minor channel numbers (and allways have) --- only thing I can think of at this point that might be involved might involve the TSID of 1 ....

Can't imagine at this point why that would be an issue with it, as we've even had a station in this area sending the wrong TSID (their analog stations TSID instead of the digital), and it didn't effect this particular receiver ... But, its the only thing I've seen that looks like a possible smoking gun ....

Software/receiver designers seem to make bad assumptions involving these sorts of issues at times, especially when there are no required standards for such specifics which they have to follow .... Not that this specific issue is all that much of an issue, but I can think of others which are ... Such as TV's which will only "autoscan" and won't allow manual channel adds or subsequent channel scans (So antenna can be aimed in different direction and a scan can be performed without wiping out all the info for the stations scanned in on previous scans with antenna aimed in different direction) .....

Has anyone been receiving KUSA (NBC) or KMGH (ABC) since 6/12? I plugged my location into antennaweb.org and it doesn't show either station on my reception list. I'm in Longmont if it makes a difference. I have three antennas on hand at the moment (RCA ANT121, Winegard SS-3000, and Antennas Direct DB2) and can't get either station with the RCA or Winegard no matter how I position them (since the DB2 is UHF only).

The only major networks I'm getting right now are CBS, FOX, and WB (with the DB2 since I get the best reception with it). :(

FWIW, I have a Receiver (an older one -- OTA Only - ZEnith HDV420) Which will not "map to"/ display the TVCT Major/Minor channel numbers for a Low power digital station in my area -- All my other receivers do, however --- That station *IS* currently sending PSIP data(even Including info in EIT's/etc), and, like the station you mention, I don't notice anything wrong with any their PSI or PSIP data ... EXCEPT, However, They are sending TSID of 1 ... Which is not necesssarily "wrong", in this case, as I don't think as a LP station they've been assigned a TSID as of yet ....

I believe that if a low power station does not act as a translator for at least part of the day then they should have a tsid allocated. The rules are not totally clear. If you read the last question in this FAQ (http://www.dtvinnovations.com/pdf/FAQ%20on%20TSID,%20PSIP%20and%20DTV%20Channel%20Moves.pdf) I recently found you'll see that they talk about what stations should be assigned a tsid. They don't mention low power stations, but they do talk about Class A stations, and if you follow their argument I think it would apply to low power stations also.
If you look at the latest (but still not up to date) TSID list at mstv.org (http://www.mstv.org/docs/TSID.pdf) you'll see that tsids have been allocated to both Class A and low power stations.

Given even their Service Location descriptors in TVCT all seem correct, and the receiver maps/displays to user all other stations in areas TVCT Major/Minor channel numbers (and allways have) --- only thing I can think of at this point that might be involved might involve the TSID of 1 ....

Can't imagine at this point why that would be an issue with it, as we've even had a station in this area sending the wrong TSID (their analog stations TSID instead of the digital), and it didn't effect this particular receiver ... But, its the only thing I've seen that looks like a possible smoking gun ....

There's no telling what any particular box might do, but I would still be surprised if a tsid value of 1 was actually specifically checked for and caused a problem. Just to be clear, can you watch that station on that tuner? Is the only problem that the TVCT mapping is being ignored, i.e. the channel is available on the physical channel/program number?

We have one station in the Denver area that causes problems for some tuners/CECB's (KDEN). They use a tsid value of 1 in the PAT table, but they use their correct TSID in the TVCT. Any chance your station is doing something like that (or the reverse)? Note that a TSID appears in three different locations, only two of which are shown by TSReader. No telling what will happen when they don't all agree (although having different tsid values in the channel tsid is supposed to be OK, so the real problem with KDEN is probably the difference between the TVCT header tsid and the PAT tsid). Note that these same tuners/CECB's that have a problem with the inconsistancy on KDEN have no problem with another channel in the Denver area (KRMT) that is consistantly using a tsid value of 1 in both the PAT and TVCT.

Another possible problem might be illegal or badly formatted descriptors in the TVCT. TsReader may not show the problem, but if the descriptors are off, especially the ones after the individual channel descriptors then the tuner won't be able to find the checksum, in which case it might just drop every TVCT it sees because it can't confirm the checksum or is using the wrong offset for the checksum. The general design philosophy (I'm not saying this is wrong) of TsReader appears to be to show whatever it can, rather than point out standard errors and inconsistancies (but in this particular case you should see a non zero CRC error count for the PSIP tables in the MPEG-2 Statistics table).

Another possibility is that the LP station is sending a transport stream that conforms to ATSC standards, but does something different than what Zenith tested with, so they didn't catch the bug. For example, a new low power station in the Denver area (KDEO-LP) transmits its TVCT in multiple sections. No other station in the Denver/Colorado Springs/Cheyenne area is doing that. TsReader has no problems showing and assembling the full TVCT, but it gives no indication that the TVCT has multiple sections. Note that this should not be the case if the station in question only has one subchannel.

Software/receiver designers seem to make bad assumptions involving these sorts of issues at times, especially when there are no required standards for such specifics which they have to follow .... Not that this specific issue is all that much of an issue, but I can think of others which are ... Such as TV's which will only "autoscan" and won't allow manual channel adds or subsequent channel scans (So antenna can be aimed in different direction and a scan can be performed without wiping out all the info for the stations scanned in on previous scans with antenna aimed in different direction) .....

Yes, once a station does something that is a little "non-standard" there's no telling what each tuner/converter will do. Sometimes there will be an "accepted or recommended practice" (e.g. published by various standards or industry orgs sometime after the release of a standard) of how to perform certain operations or how to handle certain error conditions, but many times those accepted practices are not followed, or they came out after the first generation devices chose inconsistant ways of doing things.

Has anyone been receiving KUSA (NBC) or KMGH (ABC) since 6/12? I plugged my location into antennaweb.org and it doesn't show either station on my reception list. I'm in Longmont if it makes a difference. I have three antennas on hand at the moment (RCA ANT121, Winegard SS-3000, and Antennas Direct DB2) and can't get either station with the RCA or Winegard no matter how I position them (since the DB2 is UHF only).

The only major networks I'm getting right now are CBS, FOX, and WB (with the DB2 since I get the best reception with it). :(

Yes, a lot of people are getting KUSA and KMGH. Note that they transitioned back in April, so you should not have seen a change on June 12th. I'm assuming that you didn't try to get them before that. It looks like we're lucky in the Denver area compared to many other major cities, in that KUSA and KMGH both got approved for a reasonable amount of power on their VHF stations.

That doesn't mean that you won't have problems receiving them, especially with antenna's that are primarily designed for UHF reception like the DB2. The other two are really not meant for long range indoor reception, although I do know of people in Fort Collins who are getting KMGH and KUSA with powered rabbit ears (RCA ANT1250), but I think they are the exception, rather than the rule. Please don't think powered rabbit ears are the answer to your problem! They might work, but most likely they won't.

In your case, you really need a high VHF capable antenna, and it should be installed in your attic or outdoors (i.e. on the roof). Anything else will be hit or miss. A high quality antenna preamp should also be used (for example, the Channel Master CM7778).

You can either combine your DB2 with an antenna designed purely for high VHF, or you can buy a combo UHF/VHF antenna. Note that we don't have any low VHF stations in the Denver area, so you don't need one with low VHF capability, which tends to make the antenna significantly larger.

You don't mention if you live in a home or an apartment. If you don't have the option of installing an antenna in an attic or on the roof, do you have a balcony that you can use? Have you tried a few tests like placing your Winegard SS-3000 next to a south facing window? or placing it outdoors (with a long coax cable if necessary)? I'm not saying that installing the SS-3000 outdoors would be the right answer (I don't think it was made for that), but it would give you an idea how close you are to being able to receive KMGH and KUSA from your location, which may guide your purchasing decision.

In summary, every antenna you have is not very good for VHF reception (even if they claim to be designed for VHF reception), especially since you are living around 30 miles from the transmitters.

Note also that antennaweb is not very up to date. Try TVFool (www.tvfool.com) instead. Find the direction to Lookout Mountain (where KMGH and KUSA are transmitting from) from your location, and then think about what might be in the way between you and that location. Are you blocked by another building? Are there geographical limitations (tvfool should tell you about those)?

Anway, tell us what tvfool says, along with what you know to be nearby (like buildings, large trees, etc.), what installation locations might or might not be available to you, etc., and then we can give you more specific advice.

Has anyone been receiving KUSA (NBC) or KMGH (ABC) since 6/12? I plugged my location into antennaweb.org and it doesn't show either station on my reception list. I'm in Longmont if it makes a difference. I have three antennas on hand at the moment (RCA ANT121, Winegard SS-3000, and Antennas Direct DB2) and can't get either station with the RCA or Winegard no matter how I position them (since the DB2 is UHF only).

The only major networks I'm getting right now are CBS, FOX, and WB (with the DB2 since I get the best reception with it). :(

For KUSA and KMGH, nothing changed on 6/12/2009. They switched their digital from UHF to their VHF channels and turned off analog on 4/16/2009.

I get both of them just fine in Louisville. I have a suburban rated UHF/VHF combo outdoor antenna in my attic with a CM7777 preamp attached. From glancing at the Solid Signal descriptions of your UHF/VHF antennas, it looks like you would really be pushing to get those stations from Longmont. I would think you probably need an outdoor antenna to get solid reception of those stations. Hopefully someone from close to you can offer some recommendations.

Has anyone been receiving KUSA (NBC) or KMGH (ABC) since 6/12? I plugged my location into antennaweb.org and it doesn't show either station on my reception list. I'm in Longmont if it makes a difference. I have three antennas on hand at the moment (RCA ANT121, Winegard SS-3000, and Antennas Direct DB2) and can't get either station with the RCA or Winegard no matter how I position them (since the DB2 is UHF only).

The only major networks I'm getting right now are CBS, FOX, and WB (with the DB2 since I get the best reception with it). :(

I have a DB8 in the attic of our single story home and here is the reception a few days after the 'change':

8:00 AM 6/15/2009
RF Ch ClSgn Sgnl Dir Location
(34) 2.1 KWGN-DT 93 185 S Lookout
(35) 4.1 KCNC-DT 91 184 S Lookout
(18) 6.1 KRMA-DT 0 181 S Morrison
(7) 7.1 KMGH-DT 68 184 S Lookout
(9) 9.1 KUSA-DT 80 184 S Lookout
(13)12.1 KBDI-DTV 50 202 SSW Squaw
(15)14.1 KTFD-DT 86 181 S Morrison
(19)20.1 KTVD-DT 97 184 S Lookout
(21)22.1 KFCT-DT 0-25 14 N Pierce?
(29)25.1 KDEN-DT 81 113 ESE Dacono
(32)31.1 KDVR-DT 89 185 S Lookout
(38)38.1 KPJR-DT 80 113 ESE Dacono
(51)50.1 KCEC-DT 83 185 S Lookout
(43)59.1 KPXC-DT 91 113 ESE Dacono
-------------------------
http://www.fcc.gov/mb/engineering/maps/
40.185627,-105.076976
(30) 5.1 KGWN-DT 0 353 N Wyoming?
(27)27.1 KGWN-DT 0 0 N Wyoming?
(11)33.1 KQCK-DT 0 335 NNW Horsetooth?
(40)41.1 KRMT-DT 0 179 S Morrison?
(46)53.1 KWHD-DT ? 147 SSE Parker?

I posted the morning after: 06-13-09, 01:17 PM #6339

Forgive me if this has been asked before, but I couldn't find an answer by searching this thread.
I know all the stations have gone to digital only, but have they gone to 'full power'?
My signal strength for KMGH-7 has dropped from 85-90 to 75 on my dish receiver. All the other stations are the same (95-100).
Tom

I believe that if a low power station does not act as a translator for at least part of the day then they should have a tsid allocated. The rules are not totally clear. If you read the last question in this FAQ (http://www.dtvinnovations.com/pdf/FAQ%20on%20TSID,%20PSIP%20and%20DTV%20Channel%20Moves.pdf) I recently found you'll see that they talk about what stations should be assigned a tsid. They don't mention low power stations, but they do talk about Class A stations, and if you follow their argument I think it would apply to low power stations also.


Currently-*From what I can find, PSIP (and therefore likely a unique TSID value) is apparently required for Class A stations. But, otherwise LP digital stations are not required to send a unique TSID value, nor any PSIP tables for that matter -- Rather than dig out links to the rules(or attempt to point out lack of mention of certain specifics in the rules), or the R&O's and NPRM's involved for LP DTV stations so far --- There is a mention of the rules on PSIP for DTV here in this FCC PowerPoint Presentation(from 2006) on LP DTV rules and policies ...

http://www.fcc.gov/mb/video/files/afcce.ppt

Translated to HTML :

http://74.125.155.132/search?q=cache:-nw5wZEvei4J:www.fcc.gov/mb/video/files/afcce.ppt+LP%2Bdigital%2BPSIP%2BRules&cd=4&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

They don't specifically mention TSID, but here's what the FCC powerpoint presentation from 2006 says about PSIP (while TSID value in PAT would be considered PSI(program specific information), of course, the TSID value in TVCT would likely be considered by FCC as "part of" PSIP :


PSIP is voluntary for LPTV, required for Class A ....



* - Well, unless it's changed since the last FCC R&O I have read through concerning rules for digital LP's - I didn't spend too much time on it at present, but some quick checks, and I can't find evidence that it has changed so far in the actual(CFR 47 part 73/etc) FCC rules ..


If you look at the latest (but still not up to date) TSID list at mstv.org (http://www.mstv.org/docs/TSID.pdf) you'll see that tsids have been allocated to both Class A and low power stations.


Thanks for the correction, I didn't quite word that right .. Overall, I did not mean to suggest LP's "couldn't" get a unique TSID, I meant to say they(excepting Class A DTV stations) don't have to(aren't currently required) to send it .... Therefore, you can bet many or some won't be sending a unique TSID value ....

So, For LP's currently, it seems to be the same situation we had before Early 2005(when FCC Mandated complicance to A65/PSIP for Full service stations), as before then PSIP was also "Voluntary" for Full service stations .... Before Early 2005, for example, In this area, we had some stations sending PSIP tables, others not, Others sending some PSIP data, but often not up to "specs" so to speak (everything you can imagine -- RF channel # used as major channel number in TVCT, date of Jan 1, 1980, and meaningless system_time from STT from some stations) ... This led to a real mess with some receivers, and is why I turned "off" (the only receiver I'm aware of which allowed you to do this) processing of PSIP on the DTC100 I used from 2001 through 2005 .....


There's no telling what any particular box might do, but I would still be surprised if a tsid value of 1 was actually specifically checked for and caused a problem


Oh, I wasn't assuming that was necessarily the case, seems unlikely to me as well ... Just seemed to me the "generic" use of TSID value of 1 COULD be an issue (among many) involved, given as you say, there's no telling what any particular receiver might or might not do ...

All sorts of possibilities that might be involved, some of which you mentioned later in your post, here's another one you didn't mention --- this one regarding a TSID value of "1" and more than one station sending it : I'm a Dx'er, and for instance, It's unlikely for various reasons, but I suppose it's possible The receiver could have stored a TSID value of "1" from some other station received previously (possibly even on RF channel 47, the same channel this LP station transmits on) which was never cleared out of receivers memory for some reason, and I might assume that might potentially cause an issue with another station sending TSID value of 1 ...

Now, as you might imagine, evidence seems to suggest this particular receiver likely does make some use of TSID values(as is described was intended in portion of A65C document), as I've received and "scanned in" multiple stations at same time which used the same TVCT Major/minor channel #'s ... And it worked fine for the most part, you had multiple "2.1",s etc for the different stations you could browse through with the channel up/down button ....


. Just to be clear, can you watch that station on that tuner?


Yes ...


Is the only problem that the TVCT mapping is being ignored, i.e. the channel is available on the physical channel/program number?


Yes, and I thought CEB II might be experiencing a similar issue per his post and your reply, and I assumed that he may be assuming because of that, he may have assumed something was wrong with that particular stations' PSIP .... Hence the reason I posted about this ....


We have one station in the Denver area that causes problems for some tuners/CECB's (KDEN). They use a tsid value of 1 in the PAT table, but they use their correct TSID in the TVCT. Any chance your station is doing something like that (or the reverse)? Note that a TSID appears in three different locations, only two of which are shown by TSReader.


No, the TSID value is 1 in both TVCT and PAT. Doing a dump of PSIP data with Xport, it also reports Value of 1 for TVCT channel TSID ....


Another possible problem might be illegal or badly formatted descriptors in the TVCT. TsReader may not show the problem, but if the descriptors are off, especially the ones after the individual channel descriptors then the tuner won't be able to find the checksum, in which case it might just drop every TVCT it sees because it can't confirm the checksum or is using the wrong offset for the checksum. The general design philosophy (I'm not saying this is wrong) of TsReader appears to be to show whatever it can, rather than point out standard errors and inconsistancies (but in this particular case you should see a non zero CRC error count for the PSIP tables in the MPEG-2 Statistics table).


Certianly possible I may have missed something, but that was the first thing I looked at, given we've come across probable issues in my area with missing Service Location ID's in VCT(stripped out by cableco) regarding some receivers using QAM via digital cable and not mapping to the VCT channel numbers, whearas other receivers (using QAM via cable) mapped to the VCT Major/Minor channel #'s just fine --- But again, it's possible I may have missed something, and yes, it's a 0 CRC error count for PSIP tables in MPEG-2 statistics info in TSreader ....

Also keep in mind I also have a number of other receivers(Zenith DTT900, Zenith DTT901, Hisense DB2010, ATSC receivers in Magnavox and Phillips HDD/DVD recorders, DTVPal DVR, ATSC receiver in Sony HD34XBR960 HDTV) and all of them "map" and display to user this station's TVCT Major/Minor channel #'s ... Only other user I've heard of that has reported seeing this issue was some time ago in local thread, and he is using an LG (zenith) receiver the generation after the HDV420 (LG-3410 I believe) ....

Attached zip file (for TS as processed from this particular station) has TSreader HTML export file(w/o eits or thumbnails), as well as xport text output with PSIP info dump, and TSPE logfile(note: The continuity error reported by Xport and TSPE logs are an issue with the capture/occuring at beginning of capture, it allways does that) if you want to look at those ...

I suppose I could also provide(via an email attachment, I suppose) a short sample of the TS if you're interested/would like to check it out PM me with an email address, but it would have to be very short(only a few seconds), as I'm on Dial-up internet connection ...


Another possibility is that the LP station is sending a transport stream that conforms to ATSC standards, but does something different than what Zenith tested with, so they didn't catch the bug. For example, a new low power station in the Denver area (KDEO-LP) transmits its TVCT in multiple sections. No other station in the Denver/Colorado Springs/Cheyenne area is doing that. TsReader has no problems showing and assembling the full TVCT, but it gives no indication that the TVCT has multiple sections. Note that this should not be the case if the station in question only has one subchannel.


The TVCT in multiple sections or an error in TVCT not reported by TSreader may be a possibility, and may even be a likely issue/cause involved -- The station has 4 subchannels, and TSreader reports the TVCT "defines 4 channels" ... However ---- I'm not sure if I have an accurate way to diagnose this with the tools I have handy, but, I do notice Xport PSIP dump produces the following info on their TVCT, incorrectly reporting only 1 channel in their TVCT, and regardless of which Program/(and ES streams involved) I demux from the TS with Xport (i.e. xport usage xport -g wothtest.ts 1 1 1 , or xport usage xport -g wothtest 2 2 2 -- doesn't matter), It says :

TVCT number of channels = 1

TVCT short name = WOTH-LD
TVCT channel number = 25.1
TVCT modulation mode = 0x04
TVCT channel TSID = 0x0001
TVCT program number = 0x0001
TVCT service type = 0x0002
TVCT source id = 0x0001
TVCT desc bytes = 0x002e

-----------

However, checking another station's TS with multiple subchannels, Xport PSIP dump says the following about their TVCT, correctly reporting 2 channels defined in TVCT, and also notice the different values for TVCT source id :

TVCT number of channels = 2

For the first subchannel :

TVCT short name = WKRC-DT
TVCT channel number = 12.1
TVCT modulation mode = 0x04
TVCT channel TSID = 0x08c7
TVCT program number = 0x0001
TVCT service type = 0x0002
TVCT source id = 0x0001
TVCT desc bytes = 0x0011

For the 2nd subchannel :

TVCT short name = CinCW
TVCT channel number = 12.2
TVCT modulation mode = 0x04
TVCT channel TSID = 0x08c7
TVCT program number = 0x0002
TVCT service type = 0x0002
TVCT source id = 0x0002
TVCT desc bytes = 0x0011



Yes, once a station does something that is a little "non-standard" there's no telling what each tuner/converter will do. Sometimes there will be an "accepted or recommended practice" (e.g. published by various standards or industry orgs sometime after the release of a standard) of how to perform certain operations or how to handle certain error conditions, but many times those accepted practices are not followed, or they came out after the first generation devices chose inconsistant ways of doing things.

Yes, and The CECB's were required to implement some of ATSC's A74 recommended practices for receivers, but that only applies to the CECB receivers, not for instance, DTV receivers in TV's or other STB's, or any DTV receiver manufactuered prior to the implementation of CECB program .....

FCC did have a proceeding open at one time regarding potential implementation of required DTV receiver standards, but (incorrectly IMO) closed the proceeding years ago, and basically left it up to manufactuers to pretty much do what they wanted --- with the caveat that FCC would be "watching" developments to see if they may need to revisit the issue ... Much of the discussion and interest involved at the time however seemed to mostly involve performance standards for receivers (such as involving multipath correction/etc) ....

But, the lack of required DTV receiver standards has also led to issues that have little or nothing to do with how well a receiver's equalizer handles multipath, or the receiver Noise figure, or involving rejection of out-of band interference/etc, or even how PSIP or PSI data is to be processed --- such as involving some TV's with DTV receivers which will only "autoscan" once, and which will "wipe out" all previously stored information when you adust antenna differenty, or aim antenna in a different direction and rescan .... Obviously, not a good idea for our system of OTA in U.S., with the use of "big sticks", often in multiple directions(sometimes even within the same market) from receive location, and the need for the use of directional receive antennas ..... I don't think issues such as those involve anything non-standard the stations are doing ....

Update: Also -- Here's another fairly common oddity somewhat along these lines, which should have never happened if we would have had proper (probably required) DTV receiver standards -- Some MPEG2 video decoders (including the one in Zenith HDV420) properly support TFF/RFF flags implemented by various encoders(such as Harmonic and Harris NetVX encoders implemented via their "repeat field detection" or "film detection" settings) when 23.976fps source material is broadcast(such as telecined material sourced from film), for 480i and 1080i sources, but NOT for 720p sources, even though it's supported by MPEG2 video specs .... And, other decoders (including every one I have here except the one in HDV420, hardware or software) handle it just fine with 720p ...

I know all the stations have gone to digital only, but have they gone to 'full power'?

As far as I know, the only one that is definitely not at full power yet is KRMA. They won't be going full power until August. I believe KWGN and KDVR were supposed to go full power sometime in June or July, so I'm not sure about them. Other than that, I believe all other stations are at full power.

KMGH had a request in to the FCC to raise their power level which was approved in May, so I assume that they are presently at their maximum power.

Hi all,

An informal survey on devices receiving TVGOS (TV Guide On-Screen) post digital transition is going on here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1122914&page=13) (post #369)

I am curious to know if anyone with a device running TVGOS version 7 is receiving more than 4 channels of television program data for over the air (OTA)? I'm only receiving program listings for CBS, ABC, Fox, and KRMA. Any changes I make to the channel lineup are lost after 36 - 48 hours.

Are people with Version 8 and version 9 TVOGS getting program listings for more channels OTA?

If you don't know what version of TVGOS your device has to check it:

For Panasonic DVR's
1. Bring the TV Guide On Screen up on your TV

2. Press the 'up arrow' once to get to the top menu and then scroll to the right until you get to the "Messages" tab

3. Press Enter on the remote

4. Enter 753159852

For other brands - go to "Setup".
Arrow down until you've highlighted "Change system settings". Do not press enter. Then enter 753159852

Look for a line such as:
8.01.42/8.06.44 or
7.01.32/7.06.12

The numbers to the left of / are the original TVGOS version
the numbers to the right are the latest firmware version.

In your case, you really need a high VHF capable antenna, and it should be installed in your attic or outdoors (i.e. on the roof). Anything else will be hit or miss. A high quality antenna preamp should also be used (for example, the Channel Master CM7778).

You can either combine your DB2 with an antenna designed purely for high VHF, or you can buy a combo UHF/VHF antenna. Note that we don't have any low VHF stations in the Denver area, so you don't need one with low VHF capability, which tends to make the antenna significantly larger.

You don't mention if you live in a home or an apartment. If you don't have the option of installing an antenna in an attic or on the roof, do you have a balcony that you can use? Have you tried a few tests like placing your Winegard SS-3000 next to a south facing window? or placing it outdoors (with a long coax cable if necessary)? I'm not saying that installing the SS-3000 outdoors would be the right answer (I don't think it was made for that), but it would give you an idea how close you are to being able to receive KMGH and KUSA from your location, which may guide your purchasing decision.

In summary, every antenna you have is not very good for VHF reception (even if they claim to be designed for VHF reception), especially since you are living around 30 miles from the transmitters.

Anway, tell us what tvfool says, along with what you know to be nearby (like buildings, large trees, etc.), what installation locations might or might not be available to you, etc., and then we can give you more specific advice.

Thanks for the info, I'll look into a high VHF antenna to combine with my Antennas Direct DB2. I'm setting up a two-story house and will look into either an attic or roof installation.

I can't think of any large objects obstructing line of sight to Lookout Mountain. It's mostly just the city of Boulder that's directly in my path to Lookout Mountain and there aren't any really tall buildings in Boulder. ;)

I've attached my results from the TV Fool Web site.

I can't think of any large objects obstructing line of sight to Lookout Mountain. It's mostly just the city of Boulder that's directly in my path to Lookout Mountain and there aren't any really tall buildings in Boulder. ;)


Actually, according to TVFool, you must have a geographic obstruction between you and Lookout Mountain, since just about every station is "1 Edge" for you, rather than "LOS". It's probably either North or South Table Mountain in Golden. Still, you should be fine with a reasonable high VHF antenna. If you are installing on the roof outside and you want to keep the size down, I would recommend the AntennaCraft Y5-7-13. If size isn't an issue, or you are going to install in the attic, and you have enough room, I'd recommend the Winegard YA-1713.

This of course is assuming you are happy with what you are getting in the UHF band with your DB2. There are certainly better UHF antenna's you can consider, or a good high VHF/UHF combo antenna might also make sense.

Currently-*From what I can find, PSIP (and therefore likely a unique TSID value) is apparently required for Class A stations. But, otherwise LP digital stations are not required to send a unique TSID value, nor any PSIP tables for that matter --

I can understand PSIP not being required for a LP TV station, since that requires extra hardware, but, as you know, the tsid is also sent in the PAT table, and it should be settable without any extra cost involved, so it should be required to be set to a proper value (either the tsid of the originating station if the LP station is acting as a translator, or to the LP stations tsid, which should be allocated if the LP station is not acting as a translator 24 hours per day). Of course, this is my opinion, because I don't think the FCC has clearly ruled on this.


Yes, and I thought CEB II might be experiencing a similar issue per his post and your reply, and I assumed that he may be assuming because of that, he may have assumed something was wrong with that particular stations' PSIP .... Hence the reason I posted about this ....

I assumed, based on his underpowered comment, that he could not get the signal at all (possibly based on a signal meter reading), not that he was having trouble decoding it. But I could have misinterpreted his comment.


No, the TSID value is 1 in both TVCT and PAT. Doing a dump of PSIP data with Xport, it also reports Value of 1 for TVCT channel TSID ....

You're probably right, but again I want to emphasize that there is also a tsid in the TVCT header, in addition to the individual channel TSID's. TSReader and xport do not show that tsid.


Attached zip file (for TS as processed from this particular station) has TSreader HTML export file(w/o eits or thumbnails), as well as xport text output with PSIP info dump, and TSPE logfile(note: The continuity error reported by Xport and TSPE logs are an issue with the capture/occuring at beginning of capture, it allways does that) if you want to look at those ...

I suppose I could also provide(via an email attachment, I suppose) a short sample of the TS if you're interested/would like to check it out PM me with an email address, but it would have to be very short(only a few seconds), as I'm on Dial-up internet connection ...


First, I am impressed that that station is sending a full 7 days of EPG. Is it actually populated with useful information?

There are certainly things in the TSReader output that could cause problems for some tuners/CECB's. For example having both AC-3 and MPEG-2 (which is non-standard) audio streams. Or the teletext stream. But most likely those are not the problem.


The TVCT in multiple sections or an error in TVCT not reported by TSreader may be a possibility, and may even be a likely issue/cause involved -- The station has 4 subchannels, and TSreader reports the TVCT "defines 4 channels" ... However ---- I'm not sure if I have an accurate way to diagnose this with the tools I have handy, but, I do notice Xport PSIP dump produces the following info on their TVCT, incorrectly reporting only 1 channel in their TVCT, and regardless of which Program/(and ES streams involved) I demux from the TS with Xport (i.e. xport usage xport -g wothtest.ts 1 1 1 , or xport usage xport -g wothtest 2 2 2 -- doesn't matter), It says :


Based mostly on the xport output, and indirectly on the TSReader output, I am certain that the TVCT is being sent in multiple sections by that station. Note that it is not incorrectly reporting one channel in its TVCT. The full name of that field is "number of channels in section". It is putting one channel in each section, so putting a 1 in that field is the correct thing to do. I looked at the source of xport, and it gathers all the sections, but then it only processes the first section, so no matter what you do you are only going to get the first subchannel's information. Fixing that is fairly simple, and I actually generated a patch. If you have the ability to compile the source (I did it on Linux, but you can do it on windows with Visual C++ or gcc under Cygwin) I can provide the patch (you'll also need the "patch" tool to apply it).

The only indication that TSReader gives regarding the TVCT being in multiple sections is something very indirect, and may be a complete coincidence. Note the audio type for each of the audio streams is "clean effects". KDEO-LP, which also sends its TVCT in multiple sections, also has all of the audio stream types set to "clean effects". I suspect that WOTH and KDEO are using equipment from the same manufacturer, and therefore they have similar defaults and behaviors.

I wasn't aware of xport before, so thanks for letting me know about it. It compiles cleanly on Linux, which is a plus. Always glad to add another tool to the toolchest.


Update: Also -- Here's another fairly common oddity somewhat along these lines, which should have never happened if we would have had proper (probably required) DTV receiver standards -- Some MPEG2 video decoders (including the one in Zenith HDV420) properly support TFF/RFF flags implemented by various encoders(such as Harmonic and Harris NetVX encoders implemented via their "repeat field detection" or "film detection" settings) when 23.976fps source material is broadcast(such as telecined material sourced from film), for 480i and 1080i sources, but NOT for 720p sources, even though it's supported by MPEG2 video specs .... And, other decoders (including every one I have here except the one in HDV420, hardware or software) handle it just fine with 720p ...

That is odd. I suspect we'll see more and more stations use that encoding for prime time programming, since many of the studios are producing shows in 24p. It makes sense to do it this way, since it requires less bandwidth. Hopefully only older equipment has a problem with it.

I also see that encoding on some stations that have lots of 480i SD channels. I suspect that the original source for the material is not 24p in that case, and that they are doing something funky (and bad for quality, like deinterlacing an interleaved source, resampling to a 24 Hz framerate, and then reencoding it), all in the name of bandwidth reduction. I see this on our local ION affiliate all the time.

I believe KWGN and KDVR were supposed to go full power sometime in June or July, so I'm not sure about them. Other than that, I believe all other stations are at full power.

Their original estimate was August when the transition date was February 17th. They said that they needed to remove the analog equipment in order to make room for the full power digital equipment. If they are following the same plan then they might not be at full power until December. But that is just a guess based on their old schedule. I haven't heard anything new since the transition date was changed.

I believe we are within a mile, or so, of each other. The back of my house overlooks the Tamarisk open space, and I am just off Washington.

KRMA-DT does come and go for me. My worst problems have normally been in the winter. It has normally been OK on clear warm days.

At this point, receiving KRMA-DT appears to be more art than science.

The bottom line:

Until June 15, I never had any problems receiving KRMA-DT over the past year or so.

Since then, they've been "no signal" on all of my receivers.

There have been no changes in reception on any other channel.

I believe you didn't have the issues receiving KCNC during their transmitter problems I did, either. :(

Also, for the record the person in viewer services said the complaints they received were specifically from viewers in Louisville and Loveland about losing KRMA-DT; she went so far as to say viewers in Lafayette seemed to be receiving it just fine, which is why their engineers were confused.

First, I am impressed that that station is sending a full 7 days of EPG. Is it actually populated with useful information?


Yes, more or less ... This station(including their analog counterpart/etc) has allways been (IMO) quite impressive in many different ways as LP stations go ...

They've just recently added equipment to implement EPG info in the EITs as well as fixing an issue they had with incorrect system time in STT, so they've only been doing this really, for a week or so ... Right now, they have program titles(which is useful), but not program descriptions ....

I've attached TSreader HTML output for them with the info in their EITs this time so you can see for yourself, as well as thumbnails ...


For example having both AC-3 and MPEG-2 (which is non-standard) audio streams. Or the teletext stream. But most likely those are not the problem.


Yes, We have, at times, had other stations in the area sending secondary MPEG2 audio streams as well, and FWIW it didn't cause an issue with this(zenith HDV420) receiver, including involving the mapping to VCT major/minor channel numbers ... Update: Oh, also the teletext Stream is new/they just added it last week ...


Based mostly on the xport output, and indirectly on the TSReader output, I am certain that the TVCT is being sent in multiple sections by that station. Note that it is not incorrectly reporting one channel in its TVCT. The full name of that field is "number of channels in section". It is putting one channel in each section, so putting a 1 in that field is the correct thing to do. I looked at the source of xport, and it gathers all the sections, but then it only processes the first section, so no matter what you do you are only going to get the first subchannel's information.

Thanks, Excellent info ... Difficult to say, but as you described in earlier post, I would suspect there's a very good possibility that (This particular receiver not processing the "full" TVCT because it is in multiple sections/etc) may very well be why it's not displaying/mapping to TVCT Major/minor channel #'s ...


... Fixing that is fairly simple, and I actually generated a patch ...


You might want to PM Avsforum member Dr1394 with that info, he is xport's author (you may have found xport at his website here : www.w6rz.net ) and I suspect he might be interested in your patch ....


I suspect that WOTH and KDEO are using equipment from the same manufacturer, and therefore they have similar defaults and behaviors.


Very good possibility I'd think ....


That is odd. I suspect we'll see more and more stations use that encoding for prime time programming, since many of the studios are producing shows in 24p. It makes sense to do it this way, since it requires less bandwidth. Hopefully only older equipment has a problem with it.


Unfortunetly not only older equipment it seems --- As I recall, the last time one of our local 720p Stations implemented the TFF/RFF flags, there were reports that a number of newer receivers were effected as well .... (Including newer and fairly popular DirecTV receivers as I recall) .....

That's why I suspect we don't see most 720p stations (even those with the encoders that will do it) , or Fox (via splicer) using the TFF/RFF flags ...


I also see that encoding on some stations that have lots of 480i SD channels.


We have a number of stations(that send 1080i or 480i) here sending the TFF/RFF flags -- Including for NBC HD, CW HD and PBS HD ... It does work rather nicely for 24p sources, and, the encoder seems to do a marvelous job with the detection of what "is" and what isn't repeated fields or frames -- For example, When NBC inserts a "Watch Heroes next week" graphic or whatever -- It's 29.97fps video, and the encoder detects it, and doesn't insert TFF/RFF flags ...

I particularly like it when performing an IVTC with TIVTC (TFM/Tdecimate using d2v file for hints) via AVIsynth script, as, with the TFF/RFF flags there is no question what is and what isn't a duplicate ...

Our NBC affiliate (WLWT Cincinnati) makes the best use of it, IMO -- Given they have Maximum bitrate available of a little over 17Mb/s for HD video (stat muxed with their "WeatherPlus" SD subchannel at 640x480i), as you can imagine, with the TFF/RFF flags the 24p stuff ends up looking very nice, pretty much "no matter" what ...

OTOH, a couple of PBS affiliates in the area that do it I think are expecting a little too much ... They're running 4 SD (704x480i) + 1 HD (1080i), TFF/RFF flags on all the subchannels .... Which certianly does help, when the source programming on the HD service AND at least a couple of the SD subchannels is 24p, but not so much help when they aren't ....

I searched for new stations tonight and found one - KLPD LP. It's on RF 28. Looks like they need to iron out some problems. Some of my receivers only show a black screen. Others have video but no audio. There isn't any program guide info and the call sign doesn't even show up - I found the call sign in the FCC database. The service contour indicates it covers metro Denver.

The station has 3 subchannels. 28-1 has a logo in the lower right hand side of the screen that alternates between MTV3 and Tres and appears to be music videos. The second subchannel shows up as 28-257 and has no programming, just a blank screen. The third subchannel shows up as 28-513 and is ID'd as TV FE. It appears to be Spanish language from crawls at the bottom of the screen.

I've been receiving KGWN from Cheyenne every evening the past few days. KQCK is coming in at the same level I received it before its hiatus. KFCT is booming in with a very strong signal. I've always received KQCK and KFCT 24/7.

I apologize if this isn't the right place but I was wondering if I could get some help in selecting an antenna. I live near Southlands Mall and TV Fool says I should be able to use an indoor antenna. I have two antennas I try currently, both rabbit ears with a UHF loop (one amplified, one not). They are both pretty close to working well, but I get channels 7 and 9 cutting out or blocking fairly frequently (looks like people here use the call sign, so KMGH and KUSA). It's not enough to prevent me from watching, it's just annoying. I live in a two story house and the TV and antenna are in the ground floor, with many windows facing the towers. There aren't obstructions and the house is raised up pretty well, if it makes a difference. Vinyl siding.

I think the unamplified antenna probably works better on most channels, but it struggles a little more on the VHF-HI range. It's an old Radio Shack antenna. The amplified antenna is an RCA. I've attached the TV Fool report, it doesn't appear I'd need amplification with an indoor set-top antenna. So is there a consensus here on a good indoor VHF-HI antenna? I've tried reading the forum post on indoor antennas, but it doesn't really differentiate much in terms of performance.

As a side note, this is quite an interesting topic. I have a Master's in Electrical Engineering emphasizing in Electromagnetics, but I've been working signal processing since graduation and it's frustrating how much I've forgotten. I'm trying to work through a link budget now but I think the problem I'll run into is getting specs on the TV amplifiers and antennas. It's a rich field and there's a good amount to learn.

Oh, and my TV is something like 3 years old. It's an LG 32" HDTV. I bought it at the time because it supposedly had the fifth generation receiver which was better at multi-path and had higher sensitivity. I'm not sure it's true though.

So is there a consensus here on a good indoor VHF-HI antenna? I've tried reading the forum post on indoor antennas, but it doesn't really differentiate much in terms of performance.


I forgot to mention, I'm thinking of getting a Wineguard SS-3000. It looks like it has a low gain, which is good for how close I am, and the amplifier is pretty low noise (noise figure of 1.0). Plus our TV is in an armoire and there is only a couple of feet from the top of it to the ceiling. I've read TV signals are horizontally polarized, but I also hear that VHF HI rabbit ears should be placed in a V configuration (is that true?), which is limited by the ceiling.

Sorry if I've missed any info, but there seems to be some conflicting information as to whether KRMA is going to go HD or not.

The consensus on the forum seemed to be no, but I did find a reference to them going HD later in the summer.

Is there any new info on this?
TIA

So is there a consensus here on a good indoor VHF-HI antenna? I've tried reading the forum post on indoor antennas, but it doesn't really differentiate much in terms of performance.

The short answer is no. Comparing indoor antennas is a very difficult task for a variety of reasons. Most manufacturers of indoor antennas include little to no specs regarding their performance. Performance often varies significantly based on location. Moving an indoor antenna just an inch or two can often majorly affect reception. Building materials, surrounding structures, and distance from transmitters also affect reception. Because of these and other factors, what works for one person doesn't necessarily work for another. In fact, what works in one room doesn't necessarily work in another.

I've tried about 7 or 8 different antennas including the highly rated Winegard SS-3000 and Terk HDTVa. All of them have their own strengths and weaknesses, but for VHF, I haven't found anything that beats a cheap set of rabbit ears for indoor use. The key is patience and persistence. Buy some additional coax, and try the antenna in several locations if you can. That should help you find a sweet spot where reception is better. You mentioned that you have windows facing the transmitters. That would be a good place to start.

I've read TV signals are horizontally polarized, but I also hear that VHF HI rabbit ears should be placed in a V configuration (is that true?), which is limited by the ceiling.

I've read in numerous places that you should position the rabbit ears horizontally (parallel to the floor), but that has never worked for me. I think you must have to be close to the tower for that to work. For me, positioning them at a 45 degree angle seems to work best. Since you have limited space in your present location, you could try shortening the dipoles to about 18 inches or so, position them at a 45 degree angle, and see if that helps.

Sorry if I've missed any info, but there seems to be some conflicting information as to whether KRMA is going to go HD or not.

The consensus on the forum seemed to be no, but I did find a reference to them going HD later in the summer.

Is there any new info on this?
TIA

I think it's pretty much all just speculation at this point. I am hopeful that they will return to HD once they go full power with their new antenna in August, but there was nothing in their DTV transition plan that mentioined HD. If I remember correctly, when they turned off HD, they said it was just temporary. However, that was over six months ago, so plans could have changed.

I apologize if this isn't the right place but I was wondering if I could get some help in selecting an antenna. I live near Southlands Mall and TV Fool says I should be able to use an indoor antenna. I have two antennas I try currently, both rabbit ears with a UHF loop (one amplified, one not). They are both pretty close to working well, but I get channels 7 and 9 cutting out or blocking fairly frequently (looks like people here use the call sign, so KMGH and KUSA). It's not enough to prevent me from watching, it's just annoying. I live in a two story house and the TV and antenna are in the ground floor, with many windows facing the towers. There aren't obstructions and the house is raised up pretty well, if it makes a difference. Vinyl siding.

I think the unamplified antenna probably works better on most channels, but it struggles a little more on the VHF-HI range. It's an old Radio Shack antenna. The amplified antenna is an RCA. I've attached the TV Fool report, it doesn't appear I'd need amplification with an indoor set-top antenna. So is there a consensus here on a good indoor VHF-HI antenna? I've tried reading the forum post on indoor antennas, but it doesn't really differentiate much in terms of performance.

Oh, and my TV is something like 3 years old. It's an LG 32" HDTV. I bought it at the time because it supposedly had the fifth generation receiver which was better at multi-path and had higher sensitivity. I'm not sure it's true though.

To me, at almost 30 miles from the transmitting tower, you are pushing the range of an un-amplified, set top VHF antenna. That said, my experience with amplified set top antennas is that noisy amplifiers seem to work best on UHF not VHF. So the typical amplified set top antenna with VHF capability may have as many problems from the amp as the amp solves.

First, try what Rick313 suggested and see if that helps. With rabbit ears a little angle from horizontal (15 to 45 degrees) is typical and fine. Totally horizontal never worked well for me either and you don't need over 45 degrees. Just be sure that the distance between the ends of the rabbit ears are 34" to 36" apart. Here is a basic reference regarding antennas http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/basics.html.

Here is a link to an AVS Forum thread on indoor antennas http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1037779 and here is a link to more general reading on indoor antennas http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/consumer-electronics/gadgets/antennas-for-the-new-airwaves.

Now that the transition has taken place I decided to fire up the old rooftop antenna and see what I could get. I live about five miles north of Divide on a ridge line so my LOS to the north is pretty good. TVFOOL shows I can get Colorado Springs over the air, but Pikes Peak is in the way so I don't even get a whiff. I have an old Rat Shack, I believe the model was a VU-40, elements look the same as the CM 3016. I had an old RS preamp hooked up as well. I got a Channel Master 7000 digital converter with the coupon to try and test it out. Through the preamp I got nothing. I pulled the old preamp off and just used a 300 to 75 ohm Balun and I now get KBDI at about 70 on the CM 7000 KUSA at about 50 and KMGH at about 50. Just for grins I built one of the home made 4bay bowtie antennas. Using that I lost all the VHF but I could actually get KCNC which TVFOOL shows at a -22db signal level. Only about 20 on the signal level, and it would just barely lock. I have two D* hr20-700 that I would eventually like to be able to record Denver locals on. The only channel that will lock is KBDI. Mainly I would like to get KMGH as KRDO out of the Springs does not have an HD agreement with D*. My main question is I am looking at two antennas. The winegard hd7696 and the antennacraft HBU44. The company specs show lower gain on the HBU44 but rate it as loner distance. I would assume that the gain numbers would be the ones to look at. What intigues me is that the 7696 shows a gain of 12.2db at channel 32 but winegard only claims a 40 mile distance rating. Based on the signals that I am getting now I would think that much more gain shouold lock them well enough for the HR20-700's. I just ordered 50 ft of quad shield RG6 from monoprice to replace the 5year old rg59 that is in currently there, babysteps. I know the 7698 would be nice but the wife thinks the current antenna is to big and ugly. Any input would be appreciated.

It wouldn't let me post a link to the TVfool chart until my fourth post so it will be in the next post.

Here's the TVfool chart.

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d618a22e86f52bd

I just ordered 50 ft of quad shield RG6 from monoprice to replace the 5year old rg59 that is in currently there, babysteps. I know the 7698 would be nice but the wife thinks the current antenna is to big and ugly. Any input would be appreciated.

You are 50 miles from the Denver transmitters, and don't have line of sight, i.e. every station is listed as 2 edge. You need every bit of help you can get. Based on the comment about the ugly antenna, I guess you have the antenna installed outdoors, which is pretty much required in your situation.

You should ignore distance ratings. There are no standards, so every manufacturer is free to make up their own. The antenna gain is a little more objective. In general Winegard is regarded as a better quality manufacturer than AntennaCraft. I would go with the biggest Winegard antenna your wife can stand. Note that even with a longer length, a UHF/High VHF combo antenna (like the 769x series) may not be as "ugly" because they don't have the big elements needed for low VHF reception.

Also, with a roof antenna I would highly recommend a high quality antenna preamp (which the radio shack most definitely is not) installed at the antenna. Boosting the signal before any cable transmission losses will help. I'd recommend a CM 7777 or a CM 7778.

Here's the TVfool chart.

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d618a22e86f52bd

From your attached TV Fool info, if you get a directional antenna like the 769x series (which you need), you either need to try for Colorado Springs or Denver stations or install a Rotator. you have roughly 215 degrees between CS and Denver and if you point at one, the other will be off the back of the antenna and likely won't be reliable.

Wives and "ugly" antennas!:mad: To me the choice is simple, $50 plus for cable or a rooftop antenna.:D

Wives and "ugly" antennas!:mad: To me the choice is simple, $50 plus for cable or a rooftop antenna.:DI've never seen an antenna that was uglier than a cable bill.

Unfortunately this is one instance where tvfool is wrong. For some reason they don't take into account the 14,000 foot peak between my location and Colorado Springs. I have never been able to get even the littlest amount of signal from that direction and they claim it should be my best signals. Strangely enough KQCK out of Ft. Collins popped up on a rescan at about 30%, enough for a lock anyway. I was wondering if I double the gain on my antenna and then add a preamp like the 7777 with 23db gain might I actually risk overload on KBDI, I am at 80% now?

Unfortunately this is one instance where tvfool is wrong. For some reason they don't take into account the 14,000 foot peak between my location and Colorado Springs. I have never been able to get even the littlest amount of signal from that direction and they claim it should be my best signals. Strangely enough KQCK out of Ft. Collins popped up on a rescan at about 30%, enough for a lock anyway. I was wondering if I double the gain on my antenna and then add a preamp like the 7777 with 23db gain might I actually risk overload on KBDI, I am at 80% now?

I think I can safety say that you are in no danger of signal overload at your location with the use of a CM7777. I think that pre-amp or a Winegard equivalent, is a must for your situation. Since you still have some terrain obstruction when you point at LOM, I also suggest that you tilt your antenna up a little (about 10 to 25 degrees) when pointed at LOM. Better yet, if you can physically see the terrain obstruction when you are on the roof with your antenna, then tilt the antenna so it is pointed just a hair above the top of the obstruction. This often helps in picking up the bounced signals that you will depend on in your situation.

As to antennas, the suggestions above are good. If the antenna(s) of interest are tested here, you can use this for objective comparisons http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html. If not, the general rule of thumb is the more metal you put on the mast, the higher the gain and thus the better the reception. Now in practice that not only means to compare boom length, but compare the number and size (including element diameter) of the elements.

Changing the RG-59 to RG-6, preferably quad-shielded, is a good step forward.

Good luck.

Unfortunately this is one instance where tvfool is wrong. For some reason they don't take into account the 14,000 foot peak between my location and Colorado Springs. I have never been able to get even the littlest amount of signal from that direction and they claim it should be my best signals. Strangely enough KQCK out of Ft. Collins popped up on a rescan at about 30%, enough for a lock anyway. I was wondering if I double the gain on my antenna and then add a preamp like the 7777 with 23db gain might I actually risk overload on KBDI, I am at 80% now?

I agree with CEB II on the pre-amp issue and RG-6 Co-ax.
I have a high gain antenna and a CM 7777 and do not overload KQCK which is 7.5 miles LOS to my location otherwise I'm 63 miles from Lookout and 2 edge.

I did a profile from the center of Divide and it looks like you may have LOS to KDBI with a couple mountains in the path to the Lake Cedar tower on Lookout.

If you post your coordinates or send me a private message, I will post profiles to both transmitter sites.

Unfortunately this is one instance where tvfool is wrong.

TVFool has a tendency to be off in rural and mountainous areas. Both variables apply to your situation. When this happens, TVFool frequently produces better accuracy from the coordinates query than from address information.

FWIW, I got a reply from KRMA Viewer Services today that says they're hoping to have HD in August.

Here's the link to the coordinates query. I don't have a GPS so I went by google earth, but when I put those coordinates in TVfool it shows me about three miles east. The corrected coordinates in TVfool are 39.0075, -105.152. Thanks for all the help.

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=90

Here's the link to the coordinates query. I don't have a GPS so I went by google earth, but when I put those coordinates in TVfool it shows me about three miles east. The corrected coordinates in TVfool are 39.0075, -105.152. Thanks for all the help.

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=90

This Lat/Long finder will get you to within about 100 feet based on my experience with it. However, it takes some work to find yourself even in residential areas. I've not tried it in rural areas, so if it doesn't work, nothing lost.

FWIW, I got a reply from KRMA Viewer Services today that says they're hoping to have HD in August.

Good to hear! I was hopeful, but it's nice to have some confirmation.

If anyone is interested, TiVo finally corrected their mapping for channel 7-27 (KZCO) today. They incorrectly added it as 7-2 a few months ago.

Here's the link to the coordinates query. I don't have a GPS so I went by google earth, but when I put those coordinates in TVfool it shows me about three miles east. The corrected coordinates in TVfool are 39.0075, -105.152. Thanks for all the help.


Your TV Fool plots show that you should be able to get the LOM stations with a good antenna and as I suspected, you are almost LOS to KBDI.

I have a similar profile to LOM with a similar ridge sticking up in the LOS 13 miles from my house. I receive all of the LOM stations quite well.

The attached profiles are grossly exaggerated vertically with your location on the left end of each and the tower locations on the right. Bear in mind that the KBDI antenna is 75 feet above the point shown on the profile and the Lake Cedar antennas are some 700 feet up their tower. You do appear to have some higher ground just north of your location,but your antenna height may take care of that.

The high ground in the Lake Cedar plot is about 5 miles SE of Conifer.

Good Luck.

Your TV Fool plots show that you should be able to get the LOM stations with a good antenna and as I suspected, you are almost LOS to KBDI.

I have a similar profile to LOM with a similar ridge sticking up in the LOS 13 miles from my house. I receive all of the LOM stations quite well.

The attached profiles are grossly exaggerated vertically with your location on the left end of each and the tower locations on the right. Bear in mind that the KBDI antenna is 75 feet above the point shown on the profile and the Lake Cedar antennas are some 700 feet up their tower. You do appear to have some higher ground just north of your location,but your antenna height may take care of that.

The high ground in the Lake Cedar plot is about 5 miles SE of Conifer.

Good Luck.

After looking at the terrain plots for your location, my recommendation for some up-tilt of your antenna still stands. I'd try about 15 degrees of up-tilt. This is not an exact science in the real world so you may have to play around for the best positioning after you get your new antenna and pre-amp. Good luck.

I tuned KLPD-LD manually on channel 28 last night; it's running MTV3 on .1 and the Spanish programming on .2 that had been on the channel-28 analog broadcast until it went silent a few weeks ago. This is another LD that's booming here; it runs about 95/100, higher than all network-affiliate broadcasts. Their engineering STA (http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/cdbsmenu.hts?context=25&appn=101318157&formid=911&fac_num=67539), seeking a flash cut at an ERP of 1.32 kW, was granted on Tuesday, June 23.

I reported KLPD on the air June 24 - see Post #6418. Since that post, it has cleaned up its PSIP info. MTV3 is on 28-1 and mostly Spanish programming is on 28-3. There is no 28-2.

Thanks for all the help. I forgot I had not done a rescan of the D* HR20-700 since the transition. After doing a rescan KMGH, KUSA and KBDI are coming in on the DVR even with the old antenna. Signal strength in the 50-60 range, not great, but enough for a lock. KMGH was the main one I wanted so I could get ABC in HD. I beleive I am going to order the HD7696P first and see what the signals look like before I do the preamp. I'll try the 15 degree tilt up and see if it helps. By the way how do you get the antenna to lock to the mast at an angle? Also I was wondering if anyone had any experience with the channel master 0068 pre-amp. I realize that the 7777 is the ferrari of pre-amps but the gain figures are very close on the two in UHF and it looks like that is where most of my issues will lie. The noise levels are very close as well. Solid Signal is sold out of the 7777 and the 0068 is also $36 dollars cheaper which doesn't hurt.

Also I was wondering if anyone had any experience with the channel master 0068 pre-amp. I realize that the 7777 is the ferrari of pre-amps but the gain figures are very close on the two in UHF and it looks like that is where most of my issues will lie. The noise levels are very close as well. Solid Signal is sold out of the 7777 and the 0068 is also $36 dollars cheaper which doesn't hurt.

In general, Solid Signal has reasonable prices and good service. But they overcharge for the CM7777, and they never seem to have it in stock. You can get it from Warren Electronics at a significantly cheaper price, and they typically have it in stock.

Thanks for all the help. I'll try the 15 degree tilt up and see if it helps. By the way how do you get the antenna to lock to the mast at an angle?

Some manufacturers actually allow for tilting in their clamping system. Otherwise, you can get about 15 degrees just by forcing the clamp onto the mast with a slight angle. There is usually enough slack in the clamping system to allow for forcing that tilt angle.

Also I was wondering if anyone had any experience with the channel master 0068 pre-amp. I realize that the 7777 is the ferrari of pre-amps but the gain figures are very close on the two in UHF and it looks like that is where most of my issues will lie.

You've got some pretty big negative NM figures for RF 7 & 9 so I would think you will be much better off with a CM-7777.

I have NM figures for RF7 (KMGH) of +6.2 and for RF9 (KUSA) it's +5.1 and either can get a bit blocky and drop sound momentarily at my location and I have the same antenna gain specs on high VHF that the 7696 has.

In general, Solid Signal has reasonable prices and good service. But they overcharge for the CM7777, and they never seem to have it in stock.

This makes me feel lucky - I got a CM7778 for $10 off as an open-box deal. The 7777 and 7778 are both great units because of the low noise figure, and I'd be reluctant to try anything else.

Thanks for all the help so far guys. I think I may change directions slightly. After three days running the signal into the DVR and recording about four hours of programming it looks like the VHF signals are pretty solid. The only droputs I've had were during storms and from what I've read, this seems to just be a fact of life on vhf no matter what the signal level. I am guessing that by the time I replace the coax and add a 7777, those buggers are getting hard to find, it should be stable enough for my needs. I am going to add five feet of pole to give me 25 feet of height and add a winegard hd9032 for the UHF. My question is if I switch the 7777 to be a combiner will it ignore the uhf portion of the existing antenna? It is a RS vu-75, by the way.

Thanks for all the help so far guys. I think I may change directions slightly. After three days running the signal into the DVR and recording about four hours of programming it looks like the VHF signals are pretty solid. The only droputs I've had were during storms and from what I've read, this seems to just be a fact of life on vhf no matter what the signal level. I am guessing that by the time I replace the coax and add a 7777, those buggers are getting hard to find, it should be stable enough for my needs. I am going to add five feet of pole to give me 25 feet of height and add a winegard hd9032 for the UHF. My question is if I switch the 7777 to be a combiner will it ignore the uhf portion of the existing antenna? It is a RS vu-75, by the way.

I'm not sure I exactly understand you final question. Please clarify.

Thanks,

If I take the 7777 and put the input from the vu-75 into the VHF input and take the 9032 and put it into the UHF input and set the preamp to combine the two signals will it just ignore the UHF portion of the vu 75? Also should I take off the UHF reflectors on the VU 75 or would this negatively effect the VHF reception?

If I take the 7777 and put the input from the vu-75 into the VHF input and take the 9032 and put it into the UHF input and set the preamp to combine the two signals will it just ignore the UHF portion of the vu 75? Also should I take off the UHF reflectors on the VU 75 or would this negatively effect the VHF reception?

If you configure the CM7777 for separate INPUTS, then the pre-amp "strips" any UHF signal from the VHF input and "strips" any VHF signal from the UHF input. The combined signal at the OUTPUT is a "pure" VHF signal from your one source combined with a "pure" UHF signal from your other source. For most folks combining two antennas, this is a good result.

If you configure the CM7777 for a combined INPUT, then no signal "stripping" occurs and common signals from both antennas can interfere with each other, even cancel each other at the OUTPUT. The combined INPUT feature is typically used with a single antenna input.

I wouldn't mess with the configuration of your antenna. Let the CM7777 get rid of the UHF signals from the VU-75.

That's what I was hoping, thanks.

Changes in KRMA's signal?
I don't watch much on KRMA since they stopped HD programming but I did notice since about the middle of June that their signal, while showing the same strength on my E* receiver that it always has, 74-75, was very unwatchable as it would break up every couple of minutes. Beginning a couple of days ago, I noticed the signal strength was up in the mid-80's and the breakups no longer occur. I watched the BBC News tonight. The signal strength was 85-86 with no breakups.

Could KRMA have tweaked their transmitter and/or antenna? I haven't changed anything in my setup and all of the other stations' reception is unchanged.

Changes in KRMA's signal?
...
Could KRMA have tweaked their transmitter and/or antenna? I haven't changed anything in my setup and all of the other stations' reception is unchanged.

I suppose it's possible. I installed a high VHF/UHF antenna in my attic about 3 months ago and started watching OTA. At that time if memory serves (I live in east Denver) KRMA was typically in the low 80's signal strength. Just checked it after reading your post and it seems pretty consistent at 88 to 90.

BTW, Viewer Services at KRMA indicated that they are hoping to go HD in August. My assumption is that it will be dependent on their new antenna going in service.

I've had my Sony KDL-52Z5100 for a month now and I am quite pleased with the PQ (especially with HD sources) and overall performance of this LCD HDTV. This is my third HDTV, so I'm always looking for an improvement with each set. Sony has a 4th of July sale going on, which is reflected in the current low price for this set on Amazon. It's a good buy for this time of year.

Of note to this OTA DTV crowd is the ATSC tuner on this set. It easily outperforms the tuner in my Zenith DTT901 in terms of locking strong signals on stations with multi-path problems at my house. It has OTA signal diagnostics that include Signal-to-Noise Ratio (SNR) in dB and some sort of quality or error % measure (IF-AGC %), in addition to an overall signal strength reading (0 to 100 color-coded w/ lock at about 50), which gives the current and peak signal strength. The set also includes a TV Guide EPG for OTA or cable, or you can just opt for the PSIP data for OTA. With this set OTA live HD looks like the people on the screen are in your viewing room. My Dish HD also looks very good on live broadcasts and HD movies. SD is good to fair based on the source material.

Anyway, I thought I'd post this recommendation because of the on-going sale and the superior ATSC tuner in this set. Watching Wimbledon is like being there.

Happy 4th everyone!

If they've changed anything, I certainly haven't seen it. We still regularly lose reception of KRMA...especially on cloudy days.

I just noticed this morning that KWGN-DT seems to be broadcasting at 1080i again after their foray into 720p during the station transition to combining with KDVR-DT. KDVR-DT is still broadcasting at 720p. The stations are still noting in info spots that by the end of August they will have all their new DTV equipment up and running and their DTV signal will be stronger than ever.

Given the changes expected in August for KRMA, KWGN, and KDVR, I think I'll hold off making any final configuration changes to my antennas setup until then. I've pretty much decided to just leave my old, no-name, 60", VHF/UHF combo antenna in place and just like it is for VHF digital reception. I'm getting 96 to 100 signal readings on KMGH-DT, KUSA-DT, and KBDI-DT off the VHF side without any amplification and with half a dozen splits of it. I can't see any value in replacing it now with a new high VHF-only antenna as reception of the 3 high VHF stations seems to be as good as it can get. I'm pointed at the LCG tower on LOM, but KBDI-DT is coming in at 98-100 and that was the only concern I had before they made their switch to VHF DTV.

Hope everyone had a great 4th weekend, I know I'm full from chowing down steaks, burgers, and potato salad for two days.

I've had my Sony KDL-52Z5100 for a month now and I am quite pleased with the PQ (especially with HD sources) and overall performance of this LCD HDTV. This is my third HDTV, so I'm always looking for an improvement with each set. Sony has a 4th of July sale going on, which is reflected in the current low price for this set on Amazon. It's a good buy for this time of year.

The 52Z5100 is a little out of my price range, but the 40Z5100 is at the top of my HDTV wish list right now. Another interesting feature of this line (40,46 and 52 inch versions) is the ethernet port that lets you connect the TV to the internet via your local network. It supports DLNA so it can basically be a media center using your PC or home NAS box as a server. It also has support for various internet video sources like Amazon Video on Demand, etc.

If they've changed anything, I certainly haven't seen it. We still regularly lose reception of KRMA...especially on cloudy days.

KRMA-DT is back for me in Louisville, so they changed/fixed something last week.

Update:

Spoke too soon - they're gone again this morning, but I've received them just fine the past few days, so I maintain that either they changed something or atmospherics were just right, as previous to this I hadn't seen any sign of them since early June.

KRMA-DT is back for me in Louisville, so they changed/fixed something last week.

Update:

Spoke too soon - they're gone again this morning, but I've received them just fine the past few days, so I maintain that either they changed something or atmospherics were just right, as previous to this I hadn't seen any sign of them since early June.

Northeast Longmont:
All we have uses the DB8 antenna in the attic => Home Run Video 'Amp' => wall socket.
Our HD TiVo can sometimes record KBDI pretty well (some pixelation) and sometimes it is way too garbled.
Both of our HDTVs cannot find in any rescans.

KRMA-DT is back for me in Louisville, so they changed/fixed something last week.

Update:

Spoke too soon - they're gone again this morning, but I've received them just fine the past few days, so I maintain that either they changed something or atmospherics were just right, as previous to this I hadn't seen any sign of them since early June.
FYI: I haven't noticed any change in KRMA-DT over the last few months. On my main antenna, it is normally OK with occasional breakups and I have had them MIA for a couple of short intervals.

I can't get KRMA at all on my passive CM3010 stealth but I normally get it OK with my amplified attic mounted antenna, when the weather is clear. Atmospheric changes can definely effect my reception. I have observed that I have almost no margin on the antenna alignment. If I barely move it either direction, I completely lose KRMA. If my antenna was outside, and I started having new problems, I would check the alignment closely. For me, if some strong wind had turned it just a few degrees, I would be out of business.

Good luck.

Not to worry about KRMA-DT, it's all SD anyway. Despite having a good entertainment lineup this year, this was one of the first years that I didn't watch PBS's "A Capitol Fourth" since this year it wasn't in HD. I've reached the point where either the program is absolutely a "can't miss - must see" or I'm totally desparate for something to watch before I'll tune in 4:3 SDTV.

+1

Not to worry about KRMA-DT, it's all SD anyway.

Big deal! Given the choice between SD or nothing. I'll take SD.

KRMA can't get HD too fast for me, but content is king - I'll watch their SD fare rather than the drek that's on most other channels.

KRMA can't get HD too fast for me, but content is king - I'll watch their SD fare rather than the drek that's on most other channels.

At least KRMA shows the whole frame. I was watching Frontline on KBDI last night and it was obvious that the show had been filmed in widescreen. However the broadcast was in SD and they had simply cropped off the edges of the frame. Kind of annoying.

KRMA can't get HD too fast for me, but content is king - I'll watch their SD fare rather than the drek that's on most other channels.

Problem is that their current SD content is generally of little interest to me (BBC series reruns and left-wing political commentary (e.g., Bill Moyers). Now when they had that national PBS HD feed I probably watched something two or three times a week (loved that Secrets of the Dead and the SoundStage productions in HD).

HD doesn't matter to me as my CRT is SD.

This is cut-and-paste from an email sent to someone at KRMA.

I thought you'd be interested to know I could receive your nightlight analog broadcast here in Southern Illinois! We have had some good tropospheric ducting the last few weeks and now that the low VHF band is emptying out, we receive some good long distance signals straight off our outdoor antenna.

Please see the attached snapshot of KRMA channel 6 here in Carbondale today. (There is a reflection from a window in the picture). The TV is an RCA 8-T-243 circa 1948.

Reception distance as the crow flies I'd say is a good 1000 miles.



http://i860.photobucket.com/albums/ab170/danielmercure/KRMAnightlightskip.jpg

Ah, so their nightlight service reaches 1000 miles, but their digital signal has a hard time with 25 or so.

Got it. :)

ah, so their nightlight service reaches 1000 miles, but their digital signal has a hard time with 25 or so.

Got it. :)

+1

Ah, so their nightlight service reaches 1000 miles, but their digital signal has a hard time with 25 or so.

Got it. :)

Some used to talk of 'broadcasting from the basement' aka (ice-bridge).

On a 60 year old TV!! I wonder how many of those are still around?

Problem is that their current SD content is generally of little interest to me (BBC series reruns and left-wing political commentary (e.g., Bill Moyers). Now when they had that national PBS HD feed I probably watched something two or three times a week (loved that Secrets of the Dead and the SoundStage productions in HD).

Well, there isn't much among the reruns, I admit. But Soundstage is back as the summer replacement it's always been, and I'm interested in stuff like The Ascent Of Money.

However, they NEED to get HD for Ken Burns series about the National Parks in September!

Its truly sad as the only way I got to watch Chess in Concert in HD on Great Performances was via Nebraska Public TV's satellite feed.

But even if KRMA had an HD broadcast, one has to wonder how blocky it would look anyway with V-Me, Create and the talking book audio channel sucking up ATSC bandwidth.

But even if KRMA had an HD broadcast, one has to wonder how blocky it would look anyway with V-Me, Create and the talking book audio channel sucking up ATSC bandwidth.

The audio channel's bandwidth is almost nothing compared to the video channels. Since most PBS content is not fast moving (e.g. sports) there's a chance that it might be acceptable, especially if they employ statistical multiplexing, which at one point they claimed they were going to do.

Of course if they were to do 720p rather than 1080i then the chance of decent HD quality would be higher. But I think all the PBS channels decided to standardize on 1080i. It's kind of silly that various networks are choosing 1080i for it's "superior" quality, but then not making the bandwidth available to actually realize that quality. If stations are going to add SD subchannels then they really should use 720p for their HD channel, due to 720p's typically lower bandwidth requirements.

I'm not sure how the satellite feed is done, it might not have as much compression on it, but I know Nebraska PBS has two SD subs over the air.

- Trip

Noticed some weird stuff on KUSA this morning, 2 - second dropouts and sudden drops of about 10% in signal strength that also only lasted seconds. Anyone else notice this? I wonder if they are doing some work on the system this morning?

Has anyone else noticed the latest weirdness on KRMA-DT? Looks to me like they may be gearing up for HD. The past couple of days I've noticed that most of the commercials and even some of the programming on KRMA-DT has been SD content stretched to widescreen. Both my Vizio HDTV and my TiVo HD still show the station as 480i, but for some reason, the picture keeps switching back and forth from pillar boxed SD to stretched widescreen SD.

KCNC ended their analog nightlight broadcast somewhere between noon and 6pm today.

At the moment, KRMA still has their nightlight broadcast going, but it should be gone by midnight.

There's only a handful of low power analog broadcasts left. All of them except HSN have digital equivalents, so I wouldn't expect them to last much longer.

Has anyone else noticed the latest weirdness on KRMA-DT? Looks to me like they may be gearing up for HD. The past couple of days I've noticed that most of the commercials and even some of the programming on KRMA-DT has been SD content stretched to widescreen. Both my Vizio HDTV and my TiVo HD still show the station as 480i, but for some reason, the picture keeps switching back and forth from pillar boxed SD to stretched widescreen SD.

I noticed weirdness this evening during the Nature program. From my Dish ViP 211 receiver the OTA 6-1 came in wide screen as the Normal aspect ratio, but I couldn't get a reading of the incoming resolution (Create was still in 4:3). Picture looked soft, so I think it was just the Dish receiver and my HDTV doing the up-converting. Out of curiosity I switched to my HDTV's OTA tuner and it was 4:3 and the signal data said it was 480i. Really weird!

I noticed that KRMA still had their nightlight service up a little after 1:00 AM on July 13.

Yeah, I got up to get a drink around 3:30am, and it was still on the air. When I finally got up around 9am, it was off. I assume they just waited until the first person came in on the morning shift.

Is anyone getting audio on KQDK-CA (39)? I get video albeit poor, but as far as audio is concerned, all I've gotten is static for the past couple of months. There's been a couple of times where I've been able to hear very faint audio, but it's still been drowned out by a loud hiss. I realize that no one really cares about analog anymore, but since KQCK-DT seems to come and go, it's nice to have KQDK-CA as a backup. They do occassionally show a good film.

KQDK-39 hasn't had audio for months to the best of my recollection. I did check it out Sunday night/Monday morning when I found KRMA's nightlight still operating, and the audio was just low level static. I guess no one monitors the station, including the advertisers.

And speaking of poor audio, has anyone tried to watch one of those out-of-copyright old movies on channel 23-2? I can't manage to watch more than a few minutes due to the static. The video isn't too great either.

I don't understand why KZCO is still going on analog 27 since they're a subchannel of KMGH. Stations complained (rightfully so) about running dual operations before the full transition and now we have stations like KZCO continuing to do so anyway.

Besides 27 & 39, I'm still receiving analog on channels 33, 45, 47, 57, and 66. I wonder how long they'll last, since many of them, except the shopping channel on 45, are already on digital religious or Spanish language channels.

I am picking up some old Patty Duke film right now on it. The audio is pretty good but the video looks like it is being sent off of an old VHS, which based on the age and the popularity of these films is a real probability. I am approx 50 miles from it, in Divide west of the Springs, on an old $30 Rat Shack antenna. Tv Fool doesn't even show it on the list. My 91XG is due to arrive in the morning so hopefully I can lock all their quality movies.

KQDK-39 hasn't had audio for months to the best of my recollection.

That's what I thought, but I wanted to make sure it wasn't just me.

And speaking of poor audio, has anyone tried to watch one of those out-of-copyright old movies on channel 23-2? I can't manage to watch more than a few minutes due to the static. The video isn't too great either.

I've flipped by it many times, but I have never watched it for more than 5 minutes. Some films definitely look and sound better than others. I guess that's what you get with public domain stuff.

It would help if they would start broadcasting stereo audio rather than just mono. I e-mailed them about it a few weeks ago, and they said that they were planning on upgrading to stereo, but it's obviously not a high priority for them.

I don't understand why KZCO is still going on analog 27 since they're a subchannel of KMGH. Stations complained (rightfully so) about running dual operations before the full transition and now we have stations like KZCO continuing to do so anyway.

I guess they just want to make sure they don't abandon their audience. Perhaps the sponsors insisted on continuing analog for a while to avoid that.

Besides 27 & 39, I'm still receiving analog on channels 33, 45, 47, 57, and 66. I wonder how long they'll last, since many of them, except the shopping channel on 45, are already on digital religious or Spanish language channels.

It's a bit confusing. As far as I can tell from the FCC web site, it appears that most of these stations have either applied for or have already been granted a digital license. Since there are already digital versions of these stations up and running, it doesn't really make sense to me to fire up another, but who knows?

KDVR ran a couple of crawls during the All-Star Game tonight. It appeared that they switched to SD widescreen to run the crawls as the video appeared degraded and the audio level changed. Is this what KDVR is really doing, to fake us out into thinking that they have the ability to run crawls during HD video?

KUSA and KTVD sometimes do that when they run their incessant weather alerts. Not sure if it's just somebody at the station being lazy or if there's an actual reason for it.

Was the game a live event? Sorry if that's a dumb question. Not a sports guy. Anyway, if it was a live broadcast, perhaps that had something to do with it.

KDVR ran a couple of crawls during the All-Star Game tonight. It appeared that they switched to SD widescreen to run the crawls as the video appeared degraded and the audio level changed. Is this what KDVR is really doing, to fake us out into thinking that they have the ability to run crawls during HD video?

That's what KDVR always does to run crawls.

It was particularly annoying all season when they'd drop to SD to run their DTV transition crawls during prime time programming (so they'd get to an exciting portion of 24 and the audio levels would change and we'd be treated to SD with a crawl.)

The only trick here was the widescreen SD.

I'm not sure if that's just because they only have an SD crawl generator or also a side effect of Fox's splicer system.

That's what KDVR always does to run crawls.

I'm not so sure about that. I know that used to be the case, but since KDVR and KWGN combined operations, I would swear I've seen them do crawls during HD programs without switching to SD. Whatever the case, I'm hoping that it won't be an issue once they have their full power DTV broadcast up and running. Last I heard, that should be late August.

I noticed today that KQDK-CA (39) is gearing up to flashcut to digital. Their application was accepted by the FCC on July 1st but has not been approved yet. Based on their coverage map, it looks like they're going to move their transmitter from Aurora to Mount Morrison. Only 0.5 kw though.

I assumed that KQDK-CA would just get shutdown at some point after the DTV transition since KQCK-DT is already operational. However, I think it will be beneficial for viewers that cannot reliably pickup KQCK-DT because it is too far off axis or just too weak to receive.

Anyway, I thought it was interesting news. They've been limping along on analog for the past few months with persistent audio and video issues, so I'm hoping this will be a change for the better for them.

I noticed today that KQDK-CA (39) is gearing up to flashcut to digital. ...

May have noticed the same thing... I stopped by the channel shortly before 6 o'clock, and it was snow. A few moments later, it was back to the poor video and no audio that has been their trademark of late. Digital testing, perhaps?

Their analog TPO is 2.19 kW; the 301-CA lists a digital TPO of 300 watts. The difference works out to nearly 1.5 MWh each month, and the input power is probably a lot higher than that. If I had to pay commercial electricity rates, I'd be real interested in switching over ASAP -- particularly on a bankruptcy acquisition.

Even at 500 watts, the signal shouldn't be a big deal in Lone Tree. It's licensed to Aurora, so it has to cover that whole city. The coverage map (http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=DC1320273.html) shows its service area encompassing Parker and its fringe getting down to Castle Rock.

I have to wonder about stations like KQDK-CA. With the changeover to digital, the station will merely be replicating a small portion of the KQCK coverage area. I have to question how effective their signal will be on UHF with 500 watts of ERP, meaning will it help some viewers pick up their signal on 39 if they can't receive 11?

It seems to me the better business decision would have been to make KQDK a translator for KQCK, even though there is a little bit of increased coverage south of E-470. They could have increased their power (what is it for a digital translator - 35 kW max?) and received status as a full power station, which would have helped them gain carriage on Comcast (I presume Comcast doesn't carry KQCK). A one-half kW Class A station gives them OTA viewers only. I can't understand how any station would target OTA only, excluding religious, Spanish language, and infomercial/home shopping channels.

As a closing note, their application states that their antenna will be "CO-LOCATED ON NON-REGISTERED NONPROFIT TOWER 58M IN HEIGHT". Does anyone know what other stations are on this tower?

As a final note, KMGH applied for an increase in power to 54kW. The coverage contour map shows, in my estimate, about a 10-20 mile increase in coverage area in most directions, with west being the exception.

I have to wonder about stations like KQDK-CA. With the changeover to digital, the station will merely be replicating a small portion of the KQCK coverage area. I have to question how effective their signal will be on UHF with 500 watts of ERP, meaning will it help some viewers pick up their signal on 39 if they can't receive 11?

It should. Weak digital signals carry a lot better than weak analog signals.

It seems to me the better business decision would have been to make KQDK a translator for KQCK, even though there is a little bit of increased coverage south of E-470.

Why? It makes no sense to downgrade their license from Class A. It's already acting as a translator to KQCK on their current license.

They could have increased their power (what is it for a digital translator - 35 kW max?)

15 kW, but there's probably interference concerns with KPJR.

and received status as a full power station, which would have helped them gain carriage on Comcast (I presume Comcast doesn't carry KQCK).

The FCC has no procedure for "converting" a low-powered or Class A station into a full-service station.

As a closing note, their application states that their antenna will be "CO-LOCATED ON NON-REGISTERED NONPROFIT TOWER 58M IN HEIGHT". Does anyone know what other stations are on this tower?

KRMT is the only one I can find.

As a final note, KMGH applied for an increase in power to 54kW. The coverage contour map shows, in my estimate, about a 10-20 mile increase in coverage area in most directions, with west being the exception.

Be careful that you're not comparing it to the 27 kW aux facility, which is more than 200 feet lower on the tower. Going from 27 kW to 54 kW on the same antenna (which is what they want to do) is only 3 dB and will provide little or no increase in coverage, primarily only improved coverage within the area already covered. If they're going from the 48 kW they're authorized for up to 54 kW, that's even less of an increase.

It's licensed to Aurora, so it has to cover that whole city.

No such rule exists for LP or Class A stations.

- Trip

As a closing note, their application states that their antenna will be "CO-LOCATED ON NON-REGISTERED NONPROFIT TOWER 58M IN HEIGHT". Does anyone know what other stations are on this tower?

Oops! I was wrong about the transmitter location. After double checking the coordinates with Google Earth, it's Mount Lindo just south of Mount Morrison and Mount Falcon. I didn't even realize anyone was transmitting from there, but Trip was right, KRMT does.

Oops! After double checking the coordinates with Google Earth, it's Mount Lindo just south of Mount Morrison and Mount Falcon. I didn't even realize anyone was transmitting from there, but Trip was right, KRMT does.

So then there will be two stations broadcasting from that location less than 10 miles from my house that I can't even approach lock on with or without my pre-amp. Great!

Posted by Trip:
It should. Weak digital signals carry a lot better than weak analog signals.
I hope it does. But I still doubt it. I know it's not a set formula or rule, but taking UHF maximums of 1 kW digital and 5 kW analog, a 0.5 kW digital would approximate a 2.5 kW analog. Nothing to write home about. Their current analog is 35 kW, I have LOS 10.1 miles from the antenna (according to tvfool) and I can't get a snow-free picture with an outdoor antenna 35 AGL on a rotor.

Why? It makes no sense to downgrade their license from Class A. It's already acting as a translator to KQCK on their current license.
That was my point. It's already acting as a translator, only more ineffectively as a Class A due to lower power. In addition, it has separate licensing responsibilites (FCC requirements, e.g. EEO reports, childrens' programming, renewals, etc.) that it wouldn't have, duplicating KQCK's requirements, if it was a translator rather than Class A.

[The FCC has no procedure for "converting" a low-powered or Class A station into a full-service station.
There doesn't need to be one. KQDK can cease analog operations and go away. KQCK applies for a translator on channel 39. Mission accomplished.

Thanks for the antenna tower info. It makes sense that KRMT is the "non-profit" on the tower KQDK will be co-locating upon.

Be careful that you're not comparing it to the 27 kW aux facility, which is more than 200 feet lower on the tower. Going from 27 kW to 54 kW on the same antenna (which is what they want to do) is only 3 dB and will provide little or no increase in coverage, primarily only improved coverage within the area already covered. If they're going from the 48 kW they're authorized for up to 54 kW, that's even less of an increase.

I "eyeballed" it for my comparison statement, but it was late when I posted, so my "fresh" eyeball look sees very little change in the coverage contour, comparing the 48 kW to the54 kW, so I agree with you on that point. But there is a noticeable differance, using either one, when comparing it to the aux facility.

And yes, KQDK not only will not cover all of Aurora with the digital facility, it doesn't cover all of Aurora with its analog facility.

I hope it does. But I still doubt it. I know it's not a set formula or rule, but taking UHF maximums of 1 kW digital and 5 kW analog, a 0.5 kW digital would approximate a 2.5 kW analog. Nothing to write home about. Their current analog is 35 kW, I have LOS 10.1 miles from the antenna (according to tvfool) and I can't get a snow-free picture with an outdoor antenna 35 AGL on a rotor.

The FCC generally considered a ratio of roughly 50:1. (Seriously.) In the original allocation table (http://www.transmitter.com/FCC98315/chanplan.html), most UHF analogs at 5000 kW were given power levels of 50-100 kW or so, with an option of maxing out at 200 kW. Only former VHF stations were allowed higher power. The FCC eventually dropped that and allowed any station to apply for 1000 kW on UHF.

I had a 17.9 kW digital signal max me out at 53 miles.

That was my point. It's already acting as a translator, only more ineffectively as a Class A due to lower power. In addition, it has separate licensing responsibilites (FCC requirements, e.g. EEO reports, childrens' programming, renewals, etc.) that it wouldn't have, duplicating KQCK's requirements, if it was a translator rather than Class A.

There doesn't need to be one. KQDK can cease analog operations and go away. KQCK applies for a translator on channel 39. Mission accomplished.

I think you're misunderstanding some things:

Translators and Class A stations have the exact same power levels available to them (0.3 kW VHF, 15 kW UHF); there is no difference in power level.

Class A stations do have the extra requirements, as you state, but since it's a straight simulcast of KQCK, they should be able to file the exact same paperwork for both.

If someone wanted a full-service channel 39 and KQDK-CA was a translator, it would have to move. As a Class A, it is protected and cannot be forced to move.

Finally, neither translators nor Class A stations get must-carry. Changing class would not help gain cable carriage.
I hope that helps explain matters in a clearer fashion. :)

- Trip