what the #%{^ was up with kdvr tonight? First they cut into the middle of the end of house for a news promo, then they cut off the end of the show completely to start their newscast! Wtf?

kdvr-dt mangles the end of house (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vlnpsi2wy1o)

+1

And I have the screw-up nicely recorded on my recently acquired DVR. What a pain!

I just called KDVR and got an answer from the programming department:

Their switching system is completely automated.

So the first insertion was "some type of error" they're investigating, and stomping over the end of House? KDVR said "Our system had been programmed for the show to end at 9:01, so you only missed about six seconds of program content."

Oh, is that all.

Too bad with a program like House six seconds can be significant.

What if at the end of the program we had had a quick three second glimpse of Amber next to him on the bus, proving he wasn't doing better?

That didn't happen, but it certainly could have, and we would have missed it.

Nice job, guys - hope the cost savings are worth it.

I can't wait until their automation starts dropping 30 second spots into random spots in 24, or say a Broncos game...

I live in Louisville, and both KUSA and KMGH come in very strong on my unamplified CM 3010 mounted in second floor closet, and the strengths of the 2 signals are very close.

I used to have problems with KRMA analog caused by an FM radio station operating at the bottom of the FM radio spectrum, which placed it just above KRMA analog, which was at the top of the low VHF spectrum. The FM radio station splattered into the spectrum allocated to VHF channel 6. It stopped being a problem when KRMA analog stopped broadcasting.

I wonder if there could be a similar problem with VHF 7, since it is at the low end of the upper VHF spectrum. I don't even know what is in the spectrum below it, but perhaps there is something operting in that spectrum which can generate local interference for TV 7.

Did you ever notice anything that looked like interference on 7 analog that you did not see with 9 analog? That might be a hint if local interference could have anything to do with your situation.

Update: (I just did a little looking) The channel 7 spectrum is 174-180 Mhz and according to a document at: http://www.ntia.doc.gov/osmhome/alloctbl/foot_gov.html
I wonder if there could be anything left over from the old airport operating in the area?

Thanks for the reply. Yesterday was a "bad" KMGH day, getting only around 60's in the signal strength and hence no picture. Checked KUSA and again it was in the 90's. I've been using an OTA antenna for the last several years for HD so don't really know how 7 analog came in before the switch. Interesting theory about possible interference -- I'll try and do some research to determine if there's anything else broadcasting in that frequency range.

I'll also have my husband climb back into the attic and move the antenna a little bit to see if that helps. It's kind of a pain though, so he may not get to that for a couple of weeks. Just need to fix it before LOST starts up again in January! :p

My KMGH (7-1) comes and goes -- and even when I do get it, it only gets a signal in the 70's range. What boggles me is that KUSA (9-1) comes in very strong with a signal in the 90's. Any clues why that would be the case when both are broadcasting from LOM? Is KUSA broadcasting a stronger signal than KMGH? I am in Stapleton, with an unamplified Channel Master 3010 in my attic (VHF/UHF antenna). I haven't had any issues with any other channels in the last couple of months -- only KMGH.

Have you plugged your location into TVFool to see what the computer model says you should see for channel 7-1 versus channel 9-1 for your location?

http://www.tvfool.com/index.php?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29

Haven't posted in ages, but now that DTV signals are *finally* somewhat static in Denver, I purchased a new indoor antenna, and wanted to post an update on my reception.

Location: Near Federal & 112th, Westminster

Antenna: Terk HDTVi, indoors, on a speaker, pointing at Lookout Mtn, "rabbit ears" halfway extended, pointing in a V rearwards and slightly down

Receiver: DirecTV HR21-200 w/ AM21 OTA tuner

Channels & Reported Signal Strength:

2-1 (34) 88%
4-1 (35) 100%
6-1 (18) 66%
7-1 (7) 65%
9-1 (9) 75%
12-1 (13) 83%
14-1 (15) 30% (breaks up, but I never watch it anyway)
20-1 (19) 100%
25-1 (29) 100%
31-1 (32) 100%
38-1 (38) 100%
50-1 (51) 71%
59-1 (43) 100%

I know that Terk antennas don't receive much respect around here, but this one improved UHF reception compared to my former Silver Sensor *and* stabilized 7-1 and 9-1. Not bad for a relatively cheap indoor antenna.

Haven't posted in ages, but now that DTV signals are *finally* somewhat static in Denver, I purchased a new indoor antenna, and wanted to post an update on my reception.

Location: Near Federal & 112th, Westminster

Antenna: Terk HDTVi, indoors, on a speaker, pointing at Lookout Mtn, "rabbit ears" halfway extended, pointing in a V rearwards and slightly down

Receiver: DirecTV HR21-200 w/ AM21 OTA tuner

Channels & Reported Signal Strength:

2-1 (34) 88%
4-1 (35) 100%
6-1 (18) 66%
7-1 (7) 65%
9-1 (9) 75%
12-1 (13) 83%
14-1 (15) 30% (breaks up, but I never watch it anyway)
20-1 (19) 100%
25-1 (29) 100%
31-1 (32) 100%
38-1 (38) 100%
50-1 (51) 71%
59-1 (43) 100%

I know that Terk antennas don't receive much respect around here, but this one improved UHF reception compared to my former Silver Sensor *and* stabilized 7-1 and 9-1. Not bad for a relatively cheap indoor antenna.

Pretty good reception for that setup, but I'm puzzled as to why you can't get channel 14-1, which most others get with excellent signal strength. Have you run TVFool for your location? Does TVFool show LOS to channel 14-1's tower?

Regarding your relatively low signal strength for channels 7-1 and 9-1, try having the tips of your "rabbit ears" 34 inches apart. If they already are at almost exactly 34" apart, then keep that 34" tip separation distance and extend or withdrawn the rods (changes the angle of the "V") to see if signal strength improves. Also the "V" should be about perpendicular to a LOS azimuth to the LCG tower on LOM. Hope this helps.

CEB II said:
Also, since KCNC went digital, they've had (up to this year) the most problems with Dolby Digital audio. Bronco games prior to this season were very annoying as the audio switched between DD 2.0 and DD5.1 throughout the broadcast and often at inappropriate times. However, it appears KCNC finally got their DD audio problems straightened out over the past year.

IIRC, listening to CSI Miami last night ota, there was only audio on the right channel.

CEB II said:
Also, since KCNC went digital, they've had (up to this year) the most problems with Dolby Digital audio. Bronco games prior to this season were very annoying as the audio switched between DD 2.0 and DD5.1 throughout the broadcast and often at inappropriate times. However, it appears KCNC finally got their DD audio problems straightened out over the past year.

IIRC, listening to CSI Miami last night ota, there was only audio on the right channel.

I have it on my DVR, but haven't watched it yet. I'll look for audio issues when I do.

I have it on my DVR, but haven't watched it yet. I'll look for audio issues when I do.

Never mind. Loose RCA cable.

Pretty good reception for that setup, but I'm puzzled as to why you can't get channel 14-1, which most others get with excellent signal strength. Have you run TVFool for your location? Does TVFool show LOS to channel 14-1's tower?

I checked TVFool, and 14-1 (and 6-1) say "2Edge" so there must be something between me and Mt Morrison. Not sure why 14-1 is so much more problematic, but no big loss. Everything else on Lookout & Squaw say "LOS."

Regarding your relatively low signal strength for channels 7-1 and 9-1, try having the tips of your "rabbit ears" 34 inches apart. If they already are at almost exactly 34" apart, then keep that 34" tip separation distance and extend or withdrawn the rods (changes the angle of the "V") to see if signal strength improves. Also the "V" should be about perpendicular to a LOS azimuth to the LCG tower on LOM. Hope this helps.

I'll try tweaking the "rabbit ears" a bit more to see if I can find a better sweet spot. I can get higher results individually on 7-1, 9-1, or 12-1; but at the expense of one or more other channels. The current orientation gives so-so readings across the board, but at least all the VHF channels are watchable.

I know that Terk antennas don't receive much respect around here, but this one improved UHF reception compared to my former Silver Sensor *and* stabilized 7-1 and 9-1. Not bad for a relatively cheap indoor antenna.
To the contrary, that's one of the best indoor antennas on the market. The only real knock on it is how easily it can be tipped over thanks to the small base coupled with the Silver Sensor-style boom.

If other signals besides KTFD's ever start to misbehave, I'd suggest re-locating the antenna away from the speaker, or moving the speaker elsewhere and putting the antenna on a table in the same spot. The woofer's magnet may be close enough and large enough to deflect the TV signals in strange ways.

I'll try tweaking the "rabbit ears" a bit more to see if I can find a better sweet spot. I can get higher results individually on 7-1, 9-1, or 12-1; but at the expense of one or more other channels. The current orientation gives so-so readings across the board, but at least all the VHF channels are watchable.

When tweaking the "rabbit ears" (i.e., for high VHF), just remember the 34" separation, more is okay, but less will make it harder to get 7-1 and 9-1.

My scanning software noticed that KLWY dropped their SD subchannel, moved the HD subchannel to 27.1 and then added an SD feed of ABC affiliate KTWO from Casper, WY. However, they've set the "hidden" bit in the PSIP for the SD subchannel. I have never seen that psip feature used before. When that bit is set it means that it is not supposed to be accessible via either channel surfing (up/down) or direct access, i.e. effectively hiding the channel.

I'm curious to see what various hardware actually does with this. So I am asking anyone who is capable of receiving KLWY to check the station out and see what happens. Consider doing a rescan if possible. KLWY's HD broadcast is now on 27.1 (its physical channel is 27-4 as before), and the SD broadcast of KTWO should be on 27.2 (its physical channel is 27-5). I'm mentioning the physical channel because some tuners have the ability to tune manually to the physical channel, and that may be a way of getting around the hidden bit.

Let me know what you find out. I'm actually not at home right now, so I haven't been able to do the experiment myself, but I will be able to try later tonight, assuming KLWY doesn't change their setup again.

Very interesting. I'd like to see this when you get the chance. Did physical 27.3 go away?

- Trip

Very interesting. I'd like to see this when you get the chance. Did physical 27.3 go away?

- Trip

Yes, physical 27.3 went away, and they added physical 27.5. I've sent you the new tsreader output.

I have verified that 27.2 does contain ABC programming, but I haven't tuned long enough to see a station ID to verify that it is KTWO, but since the name of the channel is "KTWO Hi" and KTWO is an ABC affiliate, its a good bet that it actually is KTWO.

I experimented with my DTV pal and my Zenith DTT900. The DTT900 honors the "hidden" flag and shows no indication of channel 27.2. I did full rescans, including the double rescan technique to be sure. The DTVpal totally ignores the "hidden" flag and displays the channel just fine. So the Zenith DTT900 does the right thing according to the spec, but perhaps the DTVpal does the right thing according to what many people would prefer.

I don't know if the hidden flag is set by mistake, but my guess is that it is deliberate. Since they switched KLWY-HD to 27.1 I think they don't want people who are looking for it on 27.2 to get KTWO by mistake and get confused. So they are probably going to have a short transition and then unhide the channel after that. It's possible that the "Hi" in the short channel name ("KTWO Hi") is short for "Hidden" (since the short channel name can only be 7 characters max).

Anyway, again, I encourage people try the experiment and see if your hardware will show any evidence of this "hidden" channel.

Thanks, I got it.

I wonder what deal was made that is allowing this to happen.

- Trip

I was frustrated when I learned that Ken Burn's latest PBS documentary cannot be broadcast in hi-def in this market.

What's the point of all that great photography in 480i when you know it is available in 1080i?


I absolutely agree. This is a marquee event for PBS, except in this market.

Now, Tom is saying on the forums that they are testing a switching method
to put the HD feed on during The National Parks; he said they would be
testing this out by this Friday. Whether that would be for all repeat showings
of just one cherry-picked time is not certain. I hope we get an update on that.
Here's the thread:

http://www.rmpbs.org//panorama/index.cfm/entry/532


If you feel the same way, please note that the entire series is released on Blu-ray October 6 and available from Netflix.

Yes, and it's about what a low-end membership would be, isn't it? Hmmm ...

Rob T

Anyway, again, I encourage people try the experiment and see if your hardware will show any evidence of this "hidden" channel.

I tune 27.1 and 27.2 on both my Dish and Directv receivers, no issues. I also
just saw a "K2 ABC, Wyoming's News Leader" slide that proves it.

Rob T

The only reason to get the HD-7082P would be to add an FM receiver as well as TVs to the antenna, since Denver/Boulder no longer has any station broadcasting on channels 2 through 6. (Ignore that TVFool listing for KLPT on channel 6 -- it doesn't exist, at least not yet.) If not, an HD-7694 mounted above the roof would be a fine choice. The 7694's performance is about the same as the 7082's on channels 7-69; its compact size makes it both very easy to install and fairly unobtrusive.

If you're going to get a new antenna, you might as well also replace the outdoor downlead cable, from antenna to pre-amp and from pre-amp to power injector, unless you've already done this in the past few years. Use black-jacketed RG-6 coaxial cable, which resists UV damage best. A new antenna won't do much good if a worn-out downlead saps the signals it captures!

I've replaced the cable before, but I had the same thought. I just got RG-6 cable and a compression tool from monoprice.com though I had to buy the EX6XL compression fittings elsewhere. Since the pre-amp went on in June it already has a R-6 from the balun. FM radio reception in Boulder can be hit or miss so it may be worth getting the 7082.

Thanks for the response!
update: I ordered the 7964P since it's boom is roughly the same size as the current one.

Re FM - I haven't found any info that 7964P has a built in FM trap which I've seen reference that Winegard often does? Or by definition is that what optimized for ch 7 and up mean - that they already filtered out the FM range?

"To begin with, I can only apologize for being late in providing our viewers with an HD signal. We are working on it, but I don't expect that it will happen on a permanent basis until late Spring of 2010."

http://www.rmpbs.org//panorama/index.cfm/entry/532

Sigh.

Rob T

"To begin with, I can only apologize for being late in providing our viewers with an HD signal. We are working on it, but I don't expect that it will happen on a permanent basis until late Spring of 2010."

http://www.rmpbs.org//panorama/index.cfm/entry/532


I've given up watching KRMA and KBDI. Who cares anymore?

I've given up watching KRMA and KBDI. Who cares anymore?

It is really a shame. I remember when KRMA was the leader in HD in this market.

Again, I have only one word for those who demand HD programming: Netflix.

KRMA has switched to HD and back to SD twice so far this morning. I believe this is the testing they claimed they were going to do today to see if it was feasible to run the Ken Burns National Parks series in HD starting Sunday night. Hopefully their test was successful. They were trying to determine how much of a glitch was introduced when they "brute force" switched to HD from SD and back.

KRMA has switched to HD and back to SD twice so far this morning. I believe this is the testing they claimed they were going to do today to see if it was feasible to run the Ken Burns National Parks series in HD starting Sunday night. Hopefully their test was successful. They were trying to determine how much of a glitch was introduced when they "brute force" switched to HD from SD and back.

The glitch will be due to their foreign language sub-channel and their Create sub-channel. I doubt they have the equipment that KUSA has to prioritize bit rate to the HD signal, so there will be lots of drop outs unless they just shut off 6-2 and 6-3 during the Ken Burns HD showing (something that few would mind at all).

I've given up watching KRMA and KBDI. Who cares anymore?

Content is king - and they have a huge amount of content I love, HD or not.

HD is king for me. I guess that I have become a "SNOB". Their content is not enough...
No disrespect intended, and I am sure there are lots that share your outlook.
I just will not watch it in crap-o-vision, and I have ben a contributer for lots of years...
Not when my renewal comes up...

Phil

Content is king - and they have a huge amount of content I love, HD or not.

I've given up watching KRMA and KBDI. Who cares anymore?

I greatly enjoy the news and public affairs programming on PBS, so KRMA-DT is for me indispensable.

There is also one show on KBDI that is "appointment TV" for me. 12-3 (KBDI-WV) carries _International Mystery_ on 7 PM Sunday evenings (repeated at 10 PM and later during the week). The dialogue is subtitled, which has never bothered me, and the shows originate from France, Italy, Germany, Sweden and other countries. My favorites have been _Maigret_ mysteries from France and _Inspector Montalbano_ from Italy.


Jim McCauley

uh....guys....better tune in to 6-1.
2:40 PM

uh....guys....better tune in to 6-1.
2:40 PM


Interesting. I swear National Parks started broadcasting at 480 and now I'm seeing 1080i (on a series 3 Tivo). Did they change after starting or was it just a blip between switchover?

Must have been a test because I just switched over and it's 480i.

Can anyone recommended a TV antenna installer for the Arvada / west Denver area? My 84 yr old father needs a new antenna installed, and I don't want him climbing up on the roof to do it himself (which of course he thinks he can still do just fine...).

Any suggestions / recommendations would be much appreciated.

8:03 pm
KRMA is doing it again! "The Scripture of Nature: Yosemite Valley & Yellowstone" in 1080i.
It looks terrific.

8:03 pm
KRMA is doing it again! "The Scripture of Nature: Yosemite Valley & Yellowstone" in 1080i.
It looks terrific.

This is so cool - they figured it out!

http://www.rmpbs.org/panorama/index.cfm/entry/557/

Reduced signal on V-me and Create

"From September 27-October 2, we are broadcasting "The National Parks: America's Best Idea" in HD at 8 p.m. During this time, V-me and Create will experience some signal degradation. Our apologies for the inconvenience.

Note: This may occur during today's 2 p.m. broadcast of the first episode, as well."

I am very happy :-)

Before you get too excited about KRMA's 1080i showings of the National Parks series, take a look at the immediate repeat airings, in 480i. We missed the first 8 p.m. hour last night and thought 'no problem, we'll just catch it again at 10.' Ick. Just try following the lush, detailed HD version of this doc series with standard resolution -- in squish-o-vision, no less. You can practically FEEL the difference, not only on detail but in color depth and contrast level loss.
KRMA needs to be heavily urged on this one. These episodes should NEVER be shown in 480i with sidebars -- in a perfect world, anyway.

Before you get too excited about KRMA's 1080i showings of the National Parks series, take a look at the immediate repeat airings, in 480i. We missed the first 8 p.m. hour last night and thought 'no problem, we'll just catch it again at 10.' Ick. Just try following the lush, detailed HD version of this doc series with standard resolution -- in squish-o-vision, no less. You can practically FEEL the difference, not only on detail but in color depth and contrast level loss.
KRMA needs to be heavily urged on this one. These episodes should NEVER be shown in 480i with sidebars -- in a perfect world, anyway.

Yeah, I got excited about the 1080i on the 8 PM broadcast, but missed the first 20 minutes or so. Recorded the 10 PM broadcast and then found out it is in 480i. However, because of KRMA-DT's screwy signal on 6-1, my Dish HD DVR/receiver, always sees their broadcast as widescreen, so I have full screen 480i for my first episode. My other HDTV saw it in 480i squish-o-vision. Weird!

Anyway, I'm now changing all of my DVR timers to grab the prime time version of National Parks since I had set them for the later show so I'd have more flexibility during prime time. PITA!

If anyone is curious on the state of Retro Television's (RTV, formerly RTN) availability on DTV in the Denver market, I can tell you this much at this moment. KCDO 23 (LP 23 in Sterling) is the new home for RTV and will sign on the air from a brand new tower SW of Fort Morgan with a full power circular signal (1000 kw) in late November or early December. The Aurora Catholic Diocese chapter, which is currently licensed to broadcast on 23, will move to a new RF assignment when KCDO is ready to make the move from the Sterling assignment to the new tower. I mention this due to the latest information I have from the CEO of the station (I am the sign maker for the station).

BTW, if there are any business persons on this forum that would be interested in 'dirt cheap' television advertising in the Colorado-Wyoming market, KCDO might be your ticket. If interested, contact me via private message. I have the details on how you can get inexpensive advertising.

If anyone is curious on the state of Retro Television's (RTV, formerly RTN) availability on DTV in the Denver market, I can tell you this much at this moment. KCDO 23 (LP 23 in Sterling) is the new home for RTV and will sign on the air from a brand new tower SW of Fort Morgan with a full power circular signal (1000 kw) in late November or early December. The Aurora Catholic Diocese chapter, which is currently licensed to broadcast on 23, will move to a new RF assignment when KCDO is ready to make the move from the Sterling assignment to the new tower. I mention this due to the latest information I have from the CEO of the station (I am the sign maker for the station).

BTW, if there are any business persons on this forum that would be interested in 'dirt cheap' television advertising in the Colorado-Wyoming market, KCDO might be your ticket. If interested, contact me via private message. I have the details on how you can get inexpensive advertising.

Thanks for the update on RTN/RTV. Interestingly, I still get a signal on analog 39 emanating from around Aurora way, which used to be the RTN station. Anyone know what that station is now and what, if any, affiliations they have? Are they going to stay on the air in the DTV-age?

BTW, my anticipation for the National Parks Series on KRMA has been greatly diminished based on the first three nights. I swear if I have to listen to one more minute about John Muir and the Sierra Club or see one more grainy BW picture of John Muir, I'm going to puck. There were many other key movers and shakers responsible for the National Parks of today, but they seem to get only side-bar mention, and usually it is tied to Muir.

I was really hoping for many more HD color vistas of our national parks and monuments in this series, but so far, most of this series could be shown in SD w/o much loss. I hope things will get better now that the story is moving into more modern times.

End of rant.

Disclosure: I've been to many national parks and monuments in my 63 years and the top two are Glacier and Yellowstone, hands down. The national parks in California pale in comparison.

Does anyone have any updated info on the schedule for KDBI translators? Their website still says the vague mid-to-late 2009.

I'm replacing my old fishbone roof antenna.

I have a winegard HDP-269 pre-amplifier on the current antenna.
Currently I get the following signal strength on a Tivo Series 3

channel signal strength
KWGN - 2 - 25 - 28 - intermittent, never been able to lock post transition.
KCNC - 4 low 60's
KRMA - 6 50 - 60's
KMGH - 7 low 90's
KUSA - 9 low 90's
KTVD - 20 high 80's
KDVR - 31 mid 30's to low 40's - reception varies never consistent from day to day.
KDBI - 12 20 - 28 - intermittent - won't get until they get a north metro translator up.
K11QJ - 11 KDBI analog translator



K24HQ - Ch 6 translator for Boulder - high 80's - I'm less than 2 miles from the transmitter on top of Williams Village
KFCT - Ch 22 translator for KDVR - 50 - 55 - since adding the HDP-269 get consistent lock -

KTFD - 24 - 35



I received and installed the new Winegard-HD-7694P today. It's been windy enough I'll get back up there in the next day or two and verify the aiming towards LOM .

The good news is I'm picking up ch 2 and 31 for the first time since the digital transition. I've lost 22 but that's fine since 31 is finally coming in consistently.

The big surprise - I'm picking up ch 12.1, 12.2, 12.3 they're pixelating a bit which might be mostly the wind, but they're coming in. I didn't expect to get them until the new KDBI translator went up. I'm also picking up 6.1, 6.2, 6.3 from the main transmitter (ch 18) not just the Boulder translator (ch 24). A little bit of pixelation so I'll stick to getting KRMA via ch. 24.

channel signal strength on Tivo Series3 with big wind outside
KWGN - 2.1 - 60
KCNC - 4 - 91
KRMA - 6 (ch 18) - high 70's
K24HQ - KRMA (ch 24) translator for Boulder - high 80's - I'm less than a mile from the transmitter on top of Williams Village
KMGH - 7 low 90's
KUSA - 9 low 90's
KTVD - 20 - 98
KDVR - 31 - 80
KDBI - 12 - low to mid 40's pixels and freezes a bit but hey it's coming in!


So the UHF elements on the new antenna are doing their bit.

Interestingly, I still get a signal on analog 39 emanating from around Aurora way, which used to be the RTN station. Anyone know what that station is now and what, if any, affiliations they have? Are they going to stay on the air in the DTV-age?

The station is KQDK-CA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KQDK). They lost their RTN/RTV (http://www.myretrotv.com)affiliation last December. After that, they became AMGTV (http://www.amgtv.tv) through August. In the beginning of September, they changed ownership and are now @SportsTV (http://atsportstv.com).

Back in July, they applied for a digital license for a new antenna on Mt. Lindo where they would share the KRMT tower, but that was before they changed ownership. I suppose it's possible that the new owners will follow through on those plans, but I don't think anyone knows for sure.

BTW, my anticipation for the National Parks Series on KRMA has been greatly diminished based on the first three nights.

Same here. I usually enjoy nature documentaries, but I watched the first hour of the National Parks Series and about fell asleep. Definitely not what I was expecting.

Today I noticed something funny about the time reported by my Vizio VX32L on most of the TV stations. I have to go to Guide mode to see the time on this TV, and MOST stations are now an hour slow. I believe they were generally correct earlier in the week. I suspect that many of the stations have done something very confusing to the time field for current DST status and the transition date.

According toATSC A/65C Program and System Information Protocol, Annex A 2 January 2006: Table A2 Basic Use of Daylight Savings Fields Through the Year

Conditions DS_status DS_day_of_month DS_hour

At the beginning of the year (January) daylight savings is off.
Conditions ‘0’ 0 0

When the transition into daylight savings time is within less than one month, the DS_day_of_month field takes the value day_in, and the DS_hour field takes the value hour_in. The DS_status bit is 0 indicating it is not yet daylight savings time. (The transition is to occur on the day_in day of the month at hour=hour_in; for example, if the transition were on April 15 at 2 a.m., then day_in=15 and hour_in=2)
Conditions ‘0’ day_in hour_in

After all time zone daylight transitions (within the span of the network) have occurred, the DS_status bit takes the value 1, indicating that daylight savings time is on. The DS_day_of_month field and the DS_hour field take the value 0.(In the U.S., this transition has to occur no later than 7 p.m. Pacific Time on the day day_in).
Conditions‘1’ 0 0

When the transition out of daylight savings time is within less than one month, the DS_day_of_month field takes the value day_out, and the DS_hour field takes the value hour_out. The DS_status bit is 1 indicating it is still daylight savings time. (The transition is to occur on the day_out day of the month at hour=hour_out; for example, if the transition were on October 27 at 2 a.m., then day_out=27 and hour_out=2)
Conditions‘1’ day_out hour_out

After all time zones (within the span of the network) have shifted out of daylight savings time, the DS_status bit takes the value 0, indicating that daylight savings time is off. The DS_day_of_month field and the DS_hour field take the value 0. (In the U.S., this transition has to occur no later than 7 p.m. Pacific Time on the day day_out).
Conditions‘0’ 0 0

This finishes the cycle.


Table A1 Structure of Daylight Savings Time Control
Syntax No. of Bits Format
daylight_savings() {
DS_status 1 bslbf
reserved 2 ‘11’
DS_day_of_month 5 uimsbf
DS_hour 8 uimsbf
}
DS_status — This bit indicate the status of daylight savings.
DS_status = ‘0’: Not in daylight savings time.
DS_status = ‘1’: In daylight savings time.
DS_day_of_month — This 5-bit unsigned integer field indicates the local day of the month on which the transition into or out of daylight savings time is to occur (1–31).
DS_hour — This 8-bit unsigned integer field indicates the local hour at which the transition into or out of daylight savings time is to occur (0–18). This usually occurs at 2 a.m. in the U.S.


I suspect that many stations set the DS_day_of_month field to 1 very early this morning. I don't think they should do that before tomorrow, since the rules say it should be 0 until the transition is "within less than one month", and the 2009 transition date is November 1.

I don't have anything that directly reports the DST filelds. On my VX32L the time is correct on KMGH (7-1,7-27) and 53-1. Almost all the other stations are an hour slow. FYI, I did check that my time zone is set to Mountain and DST is on. Since I don't go into Guide mode often, it is no big deal, and I can work around it by setting the zone tho Central and DST to off. I also suspect the problem will go away tomorrow, since on October 2, the TV should recognize a DS_day_of_month field of 1 as indicating November 1, since that field should always be a future date except for some hours on the transition date.

I was curious if anyone with the ability to read the DST fields could check them. As I said, on the VX32L, KMGH (7-1) and 53 were correct. KUSA (9-1) is the first one I noticed a problem on, but I believe I saw it on 2,4,6,9,12,20,31, and 59.

If you like the Ken Burns National Parks series... don't bother with the compressed to within an inch of its life broadcast version.

It's coming out on Blu-ray soon. Surprisingly, I was able to pick up the 1080i broadcast with minimal break up with an amplified indoor antenna I borrowed and see it for myself.

RMPBS really did a number on their HD transmissions (the few we get now) once they put in those damn subchannels.

They should be apologizing to all the HDTV owners that their subchannels are making their HD broadcasts a compressed mess.

Unfortunately for those who have yet to upgrade their DVD players, Blu-ray is the only way currently to get superior looking and sounding HD, as long as the transfer hasn't been slathered with DNR or some other telecine or VC-1 or MPEG-4 encoding mistake.

I personally think the only thing broadcast HD is good for are live sporting events the way the picture quality keeps going down the drain.

I watched maybe the first 15-20 minutes of the "Parks" on PBS, it was one of the worst broadcasts of HDTV I have seen in a very long time. Looked more like poorly upconverted SD.

I to will wait for the Blu-Ray version.

I was curious if anyone with the ability to read the DST fields could check them. As I said, on the VX32L, KMGH (7-1) and 53 were correct. KUSA (9-1) is the first one I noticed a problem on, but I believe I saw it on 2,4,6,9,12,20,31, and 59.

Yes, you are correct. I saw all those DST changes come through last night, and I thought they were a day early. Others that are correct are 38 and 41. But as you said, they all are self corrected for now. However, KDEO (display channel 23) set their day of month to 9 a while back. If they don't correct that then they'll be off by an hour on Oct. 9th (and perhaps after that if they actually clear the daylight status flag on the 9th, according to protocol). KTFD (display channel 14) set their day of month to 25. The same thing applies.

Anyway, most of these problems are probably due to software errors in the various stations psip generators. I can perhaps understand being off by a week (i.e. KTFD), but I'm not sure where KDEO came up with the 9th.

Yes, you are correct. I saw all those DST changes come through last night, and I thought they were a day early. Others that are correct are 38 and 41. But as you said, they all are self corrected for now. However, KDEO (display channel 23) set their day of month to 9 a while back. If they don't correct that then they'll be off by an hour on Oct. 9th (and perhaps after that if they actually clear the daylight status flag on the 9th, according to protocol). KTFD (display channel 14) set their day of month to 25. The same thing applies.

Anyway, most of these problems are probably due to software errors in the various stations psip generators. I can perhaps understand being off by a week (i.e. KTFD), but I'm not sure where KDEO came up with the 9th.
This was really not much of an issue for a TV, but it would cause a day of problems for recorders that use the PSIP time and for anyone who had a DISH DTVpal or TR40 (they lock to KCNC) type unit set up as a tuner for a VCR or any other recorder that did not have a digital tuner.

I was curious when the TV would show the correct time on problem channels. In the matter of a few minutes, the time displayed went from 10:58PM to 12:05AM. That leads me to believe the Vizio VX32L first applies the Time zone offset and DST status, but not the transistion date, to determine the local date, so that it became Oct 2 an hour earlier than might have been expected based on the time it had been displaying on the problem channels.

Football fans-
KLWY ch 27-1 Fox in Cheyenne is showing Seattle at Indy, if you don't want to see Giants at Chiefs.
So it's Eli or Payton, take your pick.

Today I noticed something funny about the time reported by my Vizio VX32L on most of the TV stations. I have to go to Guide mode to see the time on this TV, and MOST stations are now an hour slow. I believe they were generally correct earlier in the week. I suspect that many of the stations have done something very confusing to the time field for current DST status and the transition date.

According toATSC A/65C Program and System Information Protocol, Annex A 2 January 2006:

I suspect that many stations set the DS_day_of_month field to 1 very early this morning. I don't think they should do that before tomorrow, since the rules say it should be 0 until the transition is "within less than one month", and the 2009 transition date is November 1.

I don't have anything that directly reports the DST filelds. On my VX32L the time is correct on KMGH (7-1,7-27) and 53-1. Almost all the other stations are an hour slow. FYI, I did check that my time zone is set to Mountain and DST is on. Since I don't go into Guide mode often, it is no big deal, and I can work around it by setting the zone tho Central and DST to off. I also suspect the problem will go away tomorrow, since on October 2, the TV should recognize a DS_day_of_month field of 1 as indicating November 1, since that field should always be a future date except for some hours on the transition date.

I was curious if anyone with the ability to read the DST fields could check them. As I said, on the VX32L, KMGH (7-1) and 53 were correct. KUSA (9-1) is the first one I noticed a problem on, but I believe I saw it on 2,4,6,9,12,20,31, and 59.

Whatever they did my panny plasma can no longer see 4-1. I'm getting 87% but even after a rescan no picture.

Whatever they did my panny plasma can no longer see 4-1. I'm getting 87% but even after a rescan no picture.

DST field problems should never affect the picture. It should only affect the time for that station.

As far as I can tell, KCNC wasn't sending a PAT table from 2:50 until 4:00 PM today. People who were already tuned in to the golf tournament may not have noticed anything. But people trying to tune in after 2:50 may have had problems, depending on how much your tuner remembers about each channel (without a PAT table your tuner doesn't know what subchannels exist, and without that it can't locate the associated PMT tables that point to the audio and video data for each subchannel). I'm quite surprised that it took that long for KCNC to fix the problem.

I wonder what kind of monitoring the station does regarding programming metadata. I wonder if they did not even notice the problem for a while.

During part of that timeframe I noticed DirecTV had a slide up indicating thay were aware of a problem.

Anyone else lose 31 last night? First my 622ViP gave me and intermittent "no signal" message, then at one point the screen went all yellow, then green, then blank and back to yellow all the while there was a 60Hz tone in the background.

Anyone else lose 31 last night? First my 622ViP gave me and intermittent "no signal" message, then at one point the screen went all yellow, then green, then blank and back to yellow all the while there was a 60Hz tone in the background.

Didn't see anything, but I tuned to other channels after the Bronco game. About what time did the problem occur?

I don't recall exactly, but it was either during The Simpsons or Family Guy.

(I hope I didn't just reveal to much about myself with that last sentence)

Can anyone recommended a TV antenna installer for the Arvada / west Denver area? My 84 yr old father needs a new antenna installed, and I don't want him climbing up on the roof to do it himself (which of course he thinks he can still do just fine...).

Any suggestions / recommendations would be much appreciated.

I don't know if they serve Arvada, but TnT Custom Electric (970-310-6138) did a fantastic job for some friends in Northern Colorado...

I don't recall exactly, but it was either during The Simpsons or Family Guy.

(I hope I didn't just reveal to much about myself with that last sentence)
I didn't have any problems while watching the Simpsons. I don't watch Family Guy.

I checked TVFool, and 14-1 (and 6-1) say "2Edge" so there must be something between me and Mt Morrison. Not sure why 14-1 is so much more problematic, but no big loss. Everything else on Lookout & Squaw say "LOS."



I'll try tweaking the "rabbit ears" a bit more to see if I can find a better sweet spot. I can get higher results individually on 7-1, 9-1, or 12-1; but at the expense of one or more other channels. The current orientation gives so-so readings across the board, but at least all the VHF channels are watchable.Still got the BMW 335?
(We've interacted on BimmerFest and/or E90Post)

For whatever reason there were a lot of digital glitches in last night's episode of House - was it my signal or a network issue?

For whatever reason there were a lot of digital glitches in last night's episode of House - was it my signal or a network issue?

We had the dreaded brrripppps and picture break-ups on KDVR 31 via DirecTv during House.

Anyone else having dropout (audio and video) problems on CBS Channel 4? On my DirecTV feed, every couple of minutes Video pixellates and audio drops out for a second or so. This happens on both my TVs, each on a separate receiver. It does not happen on other channels.

For whatever reason there were a lot of digital glitches in last night's episode of House - was it my signal or a network issue? We were about ready to throw a chair through my projector screen during House. Must have broken up 60 times or more... some worse than others. I have D* and there have been reports on DBS forum about some breakups as a result of new software. So, we though that was it. But later watching the premier of NUMB3RS on channel 4, there were no breakups at all.

Hope whatever is causing this on 31 gets resolved soon... especially before 24 starts.

Still got the BMW 335?
(We've interacted on BimmerFest and/or E90Post)

Yep, sure do! Other than one fuel pump replacement it's been completely trouble-free so far (knock on wood.)

Don't recognize your screen name - do you use something different on BimmerFest?

We were about ready to throw a chair through my projector screen during House.

Glad to know it wasn't just me. :D

I was flipping thru channels this evening and noticed KPXC was showing Ghost Whisperer in HD. I haven't seen the station do HD before tonight and I don't recollect any posts in this regard, so if this is old news, sorry. They were still running 3 SD subchannels, but the HD looked OK. I presume it was 720p.

I also noticed that 23-2 and 23-4 were off the air until about 8:00. I still don't get any signal on 28, so I guess they're still having problems. I'm still getting a strong signal on KFCT and KGWN was coming in OK tonight also. And KQCK is STILL on the air! I wonder when they're going to get the PSIP right.

This was interesting? It occurred 23 minutes into Mercy.

Severe OTA DTV signal breakup on 9-1 several times between 11AM and 11:30AM this morning. Anyone else see this?

I set up an OTA DTV converter box for a friend this morning using a Phillips set-top VHF/UHF antenna. The location was Westminster, 114th a couple of blocks west of Sheridan. Scanned in something like 38 digital channels and signal strength on the Zenith DTT900 was excellent on every major channel.

So we are watching golf on 9-1 between 11AM and 11:30AM and all of sudden the signal starts dropping out. I messed with the rabbit ears on the antenna (sitting in a window and facing the LCG tower on LOM), but doing anything to help 9 messed up 7 and 12. I finally found an optimum for the rabbit ears, but the signal crashed on 9-1 for a few seconds again at least twice more.

KUSA crashed near the end of the 10:00 news last night. It lasted about 30 seconds - no signal via OTA.

Since yesterday, I haven't been able to get any signal for CBS 4 in Denver. I live in the highlands 28th and Speer and have never had a problem with CBS before. Anybody else experiencing this outage? Any advice?

I'm receiving KCNC at my usual 90% using an unamped indoor double bowtie antenna at about 20 miles, so I haven't noticed any change there.

KUSA is always a bit dodgy for me using unamplified rabbit ears, but my signal quality has dropped from the low 90's to the low 70's this week. Just figured it was atmospherics or something.

I was flipping thru channels this evening and noticed KPXC was showing Ghost Whisperer in HD. I haven't seen the station do HD before tonight and I don't recollect any posts in this regard, so if this is old news, sorry. They were still running 3 SD subchannels, but the HD looked OK. I presume it was 720p.

Yeah, I was surpised that there wasn't more fanfare here regarding the emergence of a new HD station. I remember one comment about a month ago, but that was it. I guess no one really watches ION. I did until they changed their programming a year or two ago. Now they don't have anything that interests me except for the occassional film, and they even manage to screw that up.

I recorded a film on ION a couple of weeks ago. I think it started about 5pm, but the first hour was windowboxed. Finally, they switched to HD about an hour into it. I ended up not watching it since they frequently show the same film several times. I figured I'd catch it some other time, but still, shame on them for such shoddy broadcasting.

Can anyone recommended a TV antenna installer for the Arvada / west Denver area? My 84 yr old father needs a new antenna installed, and I don't want him climbing up on the roof to do it himself (which of course he thinks he can still do just fine...).

Any suggestions / recommendations would be much appreciated.

I don't know if they serve Arvada, but TnT Custom Electric (970-310-6138) did a fantastic job for some friends in Northern Colorado...
Turns out another AVS member had PM'd a referral for TnT also. They came down last week and did a great job on the antenna install for my dad, including trying a couple different antenna types to get the best performance. I can't recommend them enough - they went way beyond the call of duty.

So, a second thumbs up for TnT Custom Electric!

Turns out another AVS member had PM'd a referral for TnT also. They came down last week and did a great job on the antenna install for my dad, including trying a couple different antenna types to get the best performance. I can't recommend them enough - they went way beyond the call of duty.

So, a second thumbs up for TnT Custom Electric!

Wow! I had once thought that would be a great service for an antenna installer to have, i.e. have a selection of some of the best antenna's for different situations and then actually try them on site. I'm glad to see someone actually doing that. TnT Custom Electric certainly looks like they offer an outstanding service.

For quite some time KDEN has had a PSIP inconsistancy, where they were sending a proper tsid, but were sending a channel tsid value of 1. They just fixed that problem today. Some people's tuners were having problems decoding KDEN, and it was theorized that this inconsistancy might have been the cause.

So, for those who were having problems decoding KDEN, it might be worth checking (a rescan might be required) to see if the problem is fixed.

I have been seeing the spots for Monday Night Football being broadcast on MY20. I am glad of this decision as we will undoubtedly get better PQ than if they used 9.1.

I am curious as to why they might have made this decision though. Anyone have any thoughts or inside knowledge on this?

Phil

I have been seeing the spots for Monday Night Football being broadcast on MY20. I am glad of this decision as we will undoubtedly get better PQ than if they used 9.1.

I am curious as to why they might have made this decision though. Anyone have any thoughts or inside knowledge on this?

Phil

I would bet it's on 20 because 9 is probably committed to NBC to air network programming at its normal time. Hopefully the game will look as good as it does on the original ESPN feed since ESPN will most likely be blacked out here in Denver.

I thought about that, and the fact that they have Heroes and Trauma, Mondays, which (at least Heroes) are some of their better shows for ratings. But I would swear that they have preempted regular programming in the past to show a Broncos game.

Phil

I don't believe the national ESPN feed of the Bronco's game will be blacked out locally.

I thought about that, and the fact that they have Heroes and Trauma, Mondays, which (at least Heroes) are some of their better shows for ratings. But I would swear that they have preempted regular programming in the past to show a Broncos game.

Phil

tvguide.com shows it being on Channel 20. But I bet the ESPN feed will look significantly better, since it is 720p. 720p is better in general than 1080i for fast moving live sports. Now, when they switch to the studio during half time, the 1080i broadcast is likely to look better. This is assuming that MY20 is getting a higher quality feed via satellite. If it is transcoding a 720p feed then by definition the 1080i feed can't be any better than the original 720p feed (assuming the cable or satellite companies don't damage it themselves, which is not a good assumption).

I won't be able to make the comparison, since I am OTA only, so I'm just happy there is an alternative to ESPN.

I don't believe the national ESPN feed of the Bronco's game will be blacked out locally.

NFL games are not blocked out in the host city if the stadium is sold out at least 72 hours before game time. The Broncos have sold out every game since back around 1969 and are sold out for the foreseeable future. Don't worry we will get the game on ESPN and on My20 as scheduled.

tvguide.com shows it being on Channel 20. But I bet the ESPN feed will look significantly better, since it is 720p. 720p is better in general than 1080i for fast moving live sports. Now, when they switch to the studio during half time, the 1080i broadcast is likely to look better. This is assuming that MY20 is getting a higher quality feed via satellite. If it is transcoding a 720p feed then by definition the 1080i feed can't be any better than the original 720p feed (assuming the cable or satellite companies don't damage it themselves, which is not a good assumption).

I won't be able to make the comparison, since I am OTA only, so I'm just happy there is an alternative to ESPN.

I of course have OTA HD DTV and I also have Dish HD. In the past, some football games on ESPN (I think it depends on the stadium setup and the equipment set they use at a given game as they have had some crappy HD PQ as well) have set the Gold Standard for football games in HD. Therefore, there is a good chance the ESPN broadcast will be an HD wonder to behold.

Now with the shared feed to a local station, there are several variables that can make the two equal or near equal in HD PQ or make the local less desirable. IIRC, recent local broadcasts of Bronco games on ESPN or the NFL channel have been picked up by Fox31, which is native 720p and the broadcast HD PQ has been quite good. But, I'm a little worried about the transfer to a 1080i station as we don't how they will do that or where and how the conversion will take place. So if you are going to watch the game on My20, hope for the best and expect the worst and you're less likely to be disappointed.

I'll try to flip between my 3 sources (OTA direct on my new Sony Z5100), OTA off my Dish 722 receiver, and ESPN off my Dish 722 receiver, and post my subjective evaluation on this thread sometime after the game. Now if the ESPN broadcast HD PQ isn't their best effort, remember poop runs downhill.

I don't believe the national ESPN feed of the Bronco's game will be blacked out locally.

Thanks for clearing that blackout stuff up guys!

I think I confused times when Colorado Rockies games were on Fox Rocky Mountain and ESPN or MLB Network at the same time. They usually black them out except for on the local sports network.

And also when on DirecTv if you have the NFL package, they black out games that are on your local channels.

When a local outlet is specified, because the NFL allows a station in the visiting team's home city to broadcast the game, I have definitely seen them black out the national pay outlet (in this case ESPN). I don't know whether this will happen this time, but there is precedent for it. I remember a case where channel 4 was having problems, and they actually turned on the ESPN feed temporarily until the OTA signal was back up. Then turned it off again!

The other blackout rules do not apply in this special case of the visiting team's city (or area) being allowed OTA (non-pay) broadcast when the only outlet otherwise carrying the game is a pay outlet.

Phil

When a local outlet is specified, because the NFL allows a station in the visiting team's home city to broadcast the game, I have definitely seen them black out the national pay outlet (in this case ESPN). I don't know whether this will happen this time, but there is precedent for it. I remember a case where channel 4 was having problems, and they actually turned on the ESPN feed temporarily until the OTA signal was back up. Then turned it off again!

The other blackout rules do not apply in this special case of the visiting team's city (or area) being allowed OTA (non-pay) broadcast when the only outlet otherwise carrying the game is a pay outlet.

Phil

I vaguely remember something like that happening a few years ago, but IIRC, there were extenuating circumstances because the CBS affliate KCNC was involved (contractual issues with the NFL/AFC and CBS) (i.e., it may have been a late season big game moved from Sunday, Channel 4 to MNF). Also, I just checked my 7-day Dish EPG and there isn't any indication that the ESPN broadcast won't play in Denver, and I set a timer to tune it in on ESPN.

From Wikipedia:

Local simulcasting of cable games
To maximize TV ratings, as well as protect the NFL's ability to sell TV rights collectively, games televised on ESPN or the NFL Network are simulcast on a local broadcast station in each of the primary markets of both teams (the Green Bay Packers have two primary markets, Green Bay and Milwaukee, a remnant of when the Packers played some home games in Milwaukee each season, see below). However, the home team's market can only air the game if it is sold out within 72 hours of kick-off.

Note the word "simulcast". The game will be shown on both ESPN and KTVD. I don't ever remember ESPN being blacked out.

see=> http://www.edn.com/blog/1700000170/post/1140049714.html&

I wouldn't really call it an article. It's a blog after all, and it reads more like a rant than a serious news story. Rather than offering a fresh perspective, the author just repeated what has been the general consensus for months, so it seemed pretty pointless to me. I did find some of the comments amusing though.

see=> http://www.edn.com/blog/1700000170/post/1140049714.html&

Interesting article. Of course those that have read my posts over the past couple of years know that I've doubted the ERP plans of the VHF stations all along. I'm still surprised at the near perfect, un-amplified reception I get for VHF DTV channels 7 and 9, as they are my strongest and most stable signals. But, I'm at 10 miles with an old, 5 foot, VHF/UHF combo in my attic, so I should get good reception of 7 and 9.

As I noted a week ago, I set up a friend's old analog TV for DTV using a $20 Phillips VHF/UHF, set top, antenna from Walmart, and I did have stability and reliability problems with VHF 7 an 9. The antenna is located in a large window well with LOS to the LCG tower on LOM at 15 miles distance. The major UHF channels are all strong and reliable and the weak ones also all come in well. I do think that the VHF stations are going to need to increase power if they hope to reach the same viewers they had with analog or, for that matter, the same viewers who are watching Fox31.

Man, the pre-amp banter still goes on. No, you don't want to amp up to get some weaker stations in a strong signal environment, but if you are in a weak signal environment, go for it. I'm glad the author noted that his friend effectively used a pre-amp by pointing his antenna at a weak station way off axis from his strong signals. Common sense. The author did regurgitate the old saw about your TV having enough gain for the weak stations. But, as always, failed to note that was only of value if you have your TV near-direct connected to the antenna via the shortest, physically possible leads. Every foot of distance between the antenna and TV potentially loses any remaining weak station signal that the antenna picked up. Direct connect might work for a set top antenna, but if your antenna is in the attic or on the roof, well, you see the problem.

Overall an interesting article.

I just checked a recording of Cold Case from last night, and saw that I missed a few minutes of the ending. Normally I set recordings to record an extra 3 minutes before and after, but that was not enough this time.

Does anyone know what caused the delay? There was a football game earlier, but usually they just cut the following newscast short to get things back on schedule if the football game goes over the allotted time. Was the football game the cause (in which case I should allow for more variation on Sunday evenings), or did something else happen last night that I was not aware of?

Just out of curiosity, what settings for before/after recording time do others use?

Because of NFL football, everything on KCNC's primetime was delayed about 15 minutes on Sunday. I pad things by at least 30 minutes on Sundays and also keep an eye on things if I need to add more time.

Was the football game the cause... ?

Just out of curiosity, what settings for before/after recording time do others use?
There's really no predicting when a game will delay the start of prime time like that, or for how long. At least it's rare here. Be glad we're not on Eastern or Central time, where this happens almost every Sunday night there's a second afternoon game on CBS and Fox during the NFL season. Whenever the second game goes beyond 5 o'clock Mountain, the prime-time schedule on those networks gets pushed back in Eastern and Central by however long the game runs over.

Just out of curiosity, what settings for before/after recording time do others use?

There isn't anything on my recording schedule for Sunday nights, along with Saturday, the only day of the week I don't regularly record a series. That said, I only put a one (1) minute early start on my recordings. That works for everything except NCIS, where, for some reason, I need a 3 minute early start. Fox is never a problem with starting on time since they seem to be a few seconds late on all of their shows.

I saw a crawl on KWGN this morning stating that the upgrades for KWGN and KDVR DTV were still in progress. They also stated that they expected to complete the upgrades by the end of October. That would put them 2 months behind the schedule they were advertising back in summer. Maybe that's why KDVR hasn't ever responded to my emails regarding the completion of those upgrades.

Anyway, I'll have to decide whether to wait until November for my final system adjustments or just go do it since the weather is good for attic work.

I saw a crawl on KWGN this morning stating that the upgrades for KWGN and KDVR DTV were still in progress. They also stated that they expected to complete the upgrades by the end of October. That would put them 2 months behind the schedule they were advertising back in summer. Maybe that's why KDVR hasn't ever responded to my emails regarding the completion of those upgrades.

Anyway, I'll have to decide whether to wait until November for my final system adjustments or just go do it since the weather is good for attic work.

This may not be up to date. According to KWGN's recent request for an extension, it may take to the end of November, and they are requesting an extension to 12/31. The reason for the delay appears to be that the tower crew they hired was delayed a month due to delays on their previous job. It seems to me that delivery of the new antenna also may have been an issue, since it was only scheduled to arrive on 10/7 (which means that the FCC request was written before 10/7, so it is also possible that the crawl is more up to date).

Broncos game on 20-1 looks great tonight! A little sharper than the D* ESPN broadcast.

I would also add that the picture is much better than what we see on 9-1 SNF broadcasts. None of the blockiness or picture break-ups that are so common on the bit-starved 9-1. I applaud the decision to use My20!

I'm trying to time the delay between the audio on KOA and (Ch 20-1 vs D*) .
If I'm correct, there's about a .5 to 1 sec delay to Ch 20-1, but 7 to 8 sec delay from KOA to D*.
Doesn't that seem backwards?
Somebody figure this out for me.

Bronco game PQ was great on OTA 20-1 (on-board tuner), OTA 20-1 (Dish 722 tuner), Dish 20-1, and Dish ESPN. Excellent job by ESNP, Dish, and My20. No complaints at all. And yes, the 20-1 HD PQ was better than the typical SNF on 9-1.

Posted by Scott Pro:
I'm trying to time the delay between the audio on KOA and (Ch 20-1 vs D*) .
If I'm correct, there's about a .5 to 1 sec delay to Ch 20-1, but 7 to 8 sec delay from KOA to D*.
Doesn't that seem backwards?
Somebody figure this out for me.

It seems to me that D*'s delay would be longer. Both D* and KTVD receive the signal from satellite. KTVD sends it out OTA. D* would have to send it back up to their satellite or satellites and send it back down again, which would add time.

Greetings all -

I am somewhat flummoxed by the issue I am seeing. I will first off admit I do not have the best OTA antenna setup, but regardless, I would expect results different than what I am receiving. I am in the Sapphire Pointe neighborhood of Castle Rock, at, essentially, the highest point of the area. Utilizing a set top antenna setup (Terk HDTVa model), I receive channels and sub channels for 2, 4, 20, 31, 59 - and a couple of others I don't care about - in the 50-70% signal strength range (as read on my DirecTV HR20-700 'signal strength meter'. Unfortunately, I am receiving ZERO signal for channels 7 and 9. I have tried adjusting the 'rabbit ears' portion of the antenna every way from Sunday and continue to get zilch on 7 and 9 (and I do realize the other channels are UHF, so the rabbit ears don't come into play for them). It puzzles me I am getting zero signal on the VHF channels but relatively good reception on the UHF channels. I would except to get *something* - even if it wasn't completely usable - from the VHF stations. As my antenna is an 'a' model, I have used both the amplified and unamplified modes (the unamplified mode actually give better signal strength on the UHF stations).

Thoughts/suggestions, please?

Thanks!

Dechief4

Greetings all -

I am somewhat flummoxed by the issue I am seeing. I will first off admit I do not have the best OTA antenna setup, but regardless, I would expect results different than what I am receiving. I am in the Sapphire Pointe neighborhood of Castle Rock, at, essentially, the highest point of the area. Utilizing a set top antenna setup (Terk HDTVa model), I receive channels and sub channels for 2, 4, 20, 31, 59 - and a couple of others I don't care about - in the 50-70% signal strength range (as read on my DirecTV HR20-700 'signal strength meter'. Unfortunately, I am receiving ZERO signal for channels 7 and 9. I have tried adjusting the 'rabbit ears' portion of the antenna every way from Sunday and continue to get zilch on 7 and 9 (and I do realize the other channels are UHF, so the rabbit ears don't come into play for them). It puzzles me I am getting zero signal on the VHF channels but relatively good reception on the UHF channels. I would except to get *something* - even if it wasn't completely usable - from the VHF stations. As my antenna is an 'a' model, I have used both the amplified and unamplified modes (the unamplified mode actually give better signal strength on the UHF stations).

Thoughts/suggestions, please?

Thanks!

Dechief4

My suggestion is that you invest in a larger, outdoor model, VHF/UHF combo antenna and mount it in your attic or better, yet, on your roof. Low VHF DTV signals at your distance from the LCG tower on LOM (you are probably at about 35 miles, correct) don't have much chance of being picked up with a set top VHF antenna.

Dechief4- I am a little further north than you, but not quite as high. I have had good success with a Winegard 7694 roof mounted antenna for all Lookout Mtn. stations. I also experimented with an older UHF/VHF antenna in the attic which also worked. I agree that it is unlkely that a set top antenna will provide good results. Look for ChannelMaster or Winegard UHF/VHF and you should be fine.

Dechief4- I am a little further north than you, but not quite as high. I have had good success with a Winegard 7694 roof mounted antenna for all Lookout Mtn. stations. I also experimented with an older UHF/VHF antenna in the attic which also worked. I agree that it is unlkely that a set top antenna will provide good results. Look for ChannelMaster or Winegard UHF/VHF and you should be fine.

Deschief,

The HR20-700 REQUIRES you to delete your OTA channels then re-download the setup from the satellite before you can get the ones that switched operating frequencies. The H/R20 series does NOT do a channel scan, it relies on the data downloaded from DTV. Make certain you have the correct primary market selected.

This will correct your receiver's failure to receive channels 7 & 9 (zero strength indication).

Perform this simple operation before condemning your antenna or doing anything drastic.

^^ Good Advice, I made this mistake.

Thanks to all who replied! The technical answer about low VHF signals from the LCG antenna on LOM is what I was after - I was wondering if that was the case. Do you know if channels 7 and 9 are broadcasting at full power yet - that may have something to do with this, also, if they aren't.

The post about the HR-20 is very valid, but not applicable. Been there, done that ;-)... But it was certainly a welcome suggestion.

I guess I'll have to upgrade to an attic mount at some time - providing 7 and 9 are at full power.

Thanks again for the replies!

Dechief4

Thanks to all who replied! The technical answer about low VHF signals from the LCG antenna on LOM is what I was after I've always heard channels 2-6 referred to as "low VHF" and 7-13 as "high VHF". While low VHF assignments were highly prized for analog TV, they haven't worked out well for digital TV and almost all the stations who had low VHF analog assignments have moved to higher frequencies for digital.

Thanks to all who replied! The technical answer about low VHF signals from the LCG antenna on LOM is what I was after - I was wondering if that was the case. Do you know if channels 7 and 9 are broadcasting at full power yet - that may have something to do with this, also, if they aren't.

The post about the HR-20 is very valid, but not applicable. Been there, done that ;-)... But it was certainly a welcome suggestion.

I guess I'll have to upgrade to an attic mount at some time - providing 7 and 9 are at full power.

Thanks again for the replies!

Dechief4

The DTV VHF signals for metro-Denver (channels 7-1, 9-1, and 12-1) are high VHF signals. Low VHF, channels 2 through 6 are not used for DTV in metro-Denver.

IIRC, channel 9-1 is at full power, but channel 7-1 has applied to the FCC for a small power increase. I doubt that the 7-1 power increase, when and if it happens, will make much difference in your situation. To make much difference for most folks, the VHF DTV stations would need to increase their ERP substantially and I haven't heard any chat that indicates that they are even considering such a move.

Personally, I currently get a slightly stronger signal for 7-1 than 9-1, but that is probably a function of my angle from their broadcast antennas. Your angle from their broadcast antennas is as big a factor in reception as is their ERP. If you look at the radiation diagrams on the station's FCC licence documents, you can see that at each angle around the compass the ERP is factored down from 1.0 (full ERP) to as low as around 0.7 (only 70% of the ERP). So if you are at one of their factored down power level angles combined with your distance from LOM, you get a bigger challenge to reception.

^^ Good Advice, I made this mistake.

OFF TOPIC: Glad I have a Dish receiver; just clear your OTA channels and rescan to deal with situations like 7, 9, & 12 moving from UHF to VHF. For new DTV channels not previously on some other frequency, just add the individual channel.

Anybody know where to get replacement bulbs in metro Denver for Sony rear projector hdtv's? Mine just blew.

Personally, I currently get a slightly stronger signal for 7-1 than 9-1, but that is probably a function of my angle from their broadcast antennas. Your angle from their broadcast antennas is as big a factor in reception as is their ERP. If you look at the radiation diagrams on the station's FCC licence documents, you can see that at each angle around the compass the ERP is factored down from 1.0 (full ERP) to as low as around 0.7 (only 70% of the ERP). So if you are at one of their factored down power level angles combined with your distance from LOM, you get a bigger challenge to reception.
Hmmm... I wonder if this explains why I get a much stronger signal for 9-1 than for 7-1 -- over 20% difference in signal strength. I live in Stapleton.

Anybody know where to get replacement bulbs in metro Denver for Sony rear projector hdtv's? Mine just blew.

You're probably best off buying off the net; most people swear by River Valley Electronics:

http://www.rivervalleyelectronics.net/

Hmmm... I wonder if this explains why I get a much stronger signal for 9-1 than for 7-1 -- over 20% difference in signal strength. I live in Stapleton.
CEB II is correct to point out that the angle to the transmitter is generally a potential signal strength factor since transmitter antennas are often directional, and 2 antennas transmitting from the same location may have different relative field values. However, if I am reading the documentation correctly, it appears that it should be a very minor factor in the case of KMGH and KUSA.

I went to the FCC website and reviewed what appear to be the last Granted Construction Permits (Form 301) for the main antennas for KUSA and KMGH.
For KMGH (7) I found 20090105ADQ granted 5-19-2009 which was for a Max ERP of 48kW.
For KUSA (9) I found 20080620AMC granted 12-9-2008 which was for a Max ERP of 45kW.

The Relative field tables were very similar. The peak values for KMGH tend to be about 4% lower, but the lower values are very similar. The table below shows a few sample values.

Degrees|KMGH|KUSA
0|0.959|1
30|0.782|0.77
60|0.782|0.77
90|0.959|1
120|0.782|0.77
150|0.782|0.77
180|0.959|1

I printed the polar plots and overlayed them and they were very similar. I don't believe there are any significant differences in field strengths by angle from the transmitters that are intentionally being introduced.

For my location I compared the TVfool values and they are very close.
Station|NM(db)|Pwr(dBm)|Path
KMGH|58.6|-32.2|LOS
KUSA|58.1|-32.7|LOS

I also checked the signal strength reported by my Vizio VO320E connected to a Channel Master passive CM 3010 Stealth Antenna in a second floor closet. Station|SNR(db)|Signal Strength
KMGH|28 to 29|100
KUSA|24 to 25|100

Based on my little bit of research and results, I would think it would be a good idea to take a good look at the receive end, such as the antenna, if there is a significant difference between the 2 stations.

If everything looks good at your end, you might check with a few neighbors. If it is a common problem you could contact the weaker station and ask if they are getting reports of a weak signal on your angle. They might be willing to do some testing.

At one time KCNC had a bad problem on a pretty small angle that hit me in Louisville, which they corrected.

Based on my little bit of research and results, I would think it would be a good idea to take a good look at the receive end, such as the antenna, if there is a significant difference between the 2 stations.
If everything looks good at your end, you might check with a few neighbors. If it is a common problem you could contact the weaker station and ask if they are getting reports of a weak signal on your angle. They might be willing to do some testing.
Can you explain further what I should be looking for on my antenna? I have the Channel Master 3010 antenna mounted in my attic. Is there some kind of meter I can hook to it to check if it's capable of picking up the various channels correctly? I'm really not all that technical when it comes to polar plots and such... all of that is over my head.

It appears most of my neighbors have cable or satellite. Whenever I tell someone I only use an antenna, I get this confused look, like huh???

Can you explain further what I should be looking for on my antenna? I have the Channel Master 3010 antenna mounted in my attic. Is there some kind of meter I can hook to it to check if it's capable of picking up the various channels correctly? I'm really not all that technical when it comes to polar plots and such... all of that is over my head.

It appears most of my neighbors have cable or satellite. Whenever I tell someone I only use an antenna, I get this confused look, like huh???
I was thinking of things like obviously damaged or missing elements, which I would not expect on the 3010. The other thing I had in mind would be an antenna that had severely different gains for the 2 channels, which I do not experience. I have not looked for detailed specs on the 3010, since it works OK for me. I do suspect that it does not have GREAT VHF characteristics. I do have some blocking on KBDI, which uses VHF 13, but I am not LOS to Squaw Mountain, and I think the shadowing is my real problem. For me, the 3010 does fine with all the Lookout and Mt Morrison stations. It even does OK with KPXC, which is way off line (about 130 degrees off).
My attic mounted UHF/VHF combo antenna with a CM 7777 preamp does fine with KBDI and the Lookout and Mt Morrison stations.

In your case, if you have not already done so, I would go to www.TVfool.com, use the "Check Your Address for Free TV" function, and find out what it says for your specific location. I would expect it to predict very close values for the 2 stations. If you are LOS, and getting one station very well and having trouble with the other, I would give the weak station a call and tell them that. It can't hurt to get the situation logged, and they might do some testing and find something they can fix.

CEB II is correct to point out that the angle to the transmitter is generally a potential signal strength factor since transmitter antennas are often directional, and 2 antennas transmitting from the same location may have different relative field values. However, if I am reading the documentation correctly, it appears that it should be a very minor factor in the case of KMGH and KUSA.

I went to the FCC website and reviewed what appear to be the last Granted Construction Permits (Form 301) for the main antennas for KUSA and KMGH.
For KMGH (7) I found 20090105ADQ granted 5-19-2009 which was for a Max ERP of 48kW.
For KUSA (9) I found 20080620AMC granted 12-9-2008 which was for a Max ERP of 45kW.

The Relative field tables were very similar. The peak values for KMGH tend to be about 4% lower, but the lower values are very similar. The table below shows a few sample values.

Degrees|KMGH|KUSA
0|0.959|1
30|0.782|0.77
60|0.782|0.77
90|0.959|1
120|0.782|0.77
150|0.782|0.77
180|0.959|1

I printed the polar plots and overlayed them and they were very similar. I don't believe there are any significant differences in field strengths by angle from the transmitters that are intentionally being introduced.

For my location I compared the TVfool values and they are very close.
Station|NM(db)|Pwr(dBm)|Path
KMGH|58.6|-32.2|LOS
KUSA|58.1|-32.7|LOS

I also checked the signal strength reported by my Vizio VO320E connected to a Channel Master passive CM 3010 Stealth Antenna in a second floor closet. Station|SNR(db)|Signal Strength
KMGH|28 to 29|100
KUSA|24 to 25|100

Based on my little bit of research and results, I would think it would be a good idea to take a good look at the receive end, such as the antenna, if there is a significant difference between the 2 stations.

If everything looks good at your end, you might check with a few neighbors. If it is a common problem you could contact the weaker station and ask if they are getting reports of a weak signal on your angle. They might be willing to do some testing.

At one time KCNC had a bad problem on a pretty small angle that hit me in Louisville, which they corrected.

Thanks for the great research and analysis, but my response to the poster's (Dechief4) question was with regard to not receiving either VHF station and his concern only about power levels. I was simply pointing out that his angle from the broadcast tower probably had as much effect on his reception as any small power increases that the stations may still implement.

Last night and today KRMA reception has been quite poor. Heavily pixelated video and broken up audio.

We had to skip over parts of News Hour and Garry Spetz Painting in Wild Places was unwatchable.

The reception has been good until now.

I haven't been watching much on KRMA lately, but I haven't noticed any problems with the few programs I have watched. I just checked my signal strength, and I'm getting my usual 85%.

Does anyone actually watch the SD on KRMA anymore?

Does anyone actually watch the SD on KRMA anymore?While I prefer watching HD broadcasts, I often watch SD broadcasts because of the program contents. The quality of SD when displayed on a HD television is usually quite acceptable.

We didn't have any problems with KRMA. Watched the News Hour both nights and Botany of Desire last night with no problems.

Only problem we've had lately is last Sunday on Masterpiece Contemporary. The hue was way off and varied a great deal from scene to scene, particularly in the commentary part at the end. I suspect this may have been more of an NPR problem than KRMA, though, as everything else seemed ok.

It could just be me, but I think the quality of the SD on 6-1 seems a little better lately.

It could just be me, but I think the quality of the SD on 6-1 seems a little better lately.

KRMA switched from 4:3 to 16:9. So 4:3 content will look worse, due to pillarboxing, while 16:9 content will look better due to removing the letterboxing. How much you notice will partly depend on your TV's capabilities.

Does anyone actually watch the SD on KRMA anymore?

Always; content is king. KRMA's SD stuff looks pretty decent to me.

...
It could just be me, but I think the quality of the SD on 6-1 seems a little better lately.
To me it looks like they have taken some bits from Create. They said they were doing it for the National Parks show, but I think they may be doing it all the time. What they are doing may be documented somewhere on the KRMA website, but I did notice it.
I watch the "This Old House" family of programs, and lately it looks rather blurry to me. I can certainly live with it, because I watch the shows for information. It is not like watching a program with inspirational scenery or a sporting event.

To me it looks like they have taken some bits from Create. They said they were doing it for the National Parks show, but I think they may be doing it all the time. What they are doing may be documented somewhere on the KRMA website, but I did notice it.
I watch the "This Old House" family of programs, and lately it looks rather blurry to me. I can certainly live with it, because I watch the shows for information. It is not like watching a program with inspirational scenery or a sporting event.

No, they did borrow from V-Me and Create when they were sending the HD version of the National Parks show, but they returned to "normal" immediately after. V-Me and Create have always been allocated less bandwidth than the main subchannel, and they only borrowed about .5 Mbps from each channel when they were doing HD. The bandwidth for their main subchannel hasn't really changed for some time.

Note that they are currently sending 4.4 Mbps of NULL packets, so they have plenty of extra bandwidth to improve the SD programming if they wanted to, although their main subchannel is using around 6.4 Mbps, which is about the average bitrate of a DVD (although DVD's will vary their bitrate more, hitting a max of about 8.5 Mbps for the video track).

Last night and today KRMA reception has been quite poor. Heavily pixelated video and broken up audio.

We had to skip over parts of News Hour and Garry Spetz Painting in Wild Places was unwatchable.

The reception has been good until now.

I just noticed that the RMPBS website has the note: "We have temporarily reduced power on our Mt. Morrison transmitter". I don't know how long that message has been there, but perhaps that might explain your problem, especially if they didn't reduce power by that much, but you were close to the edge of the "digital cliff".

I haven't been watching much on KRMA lately, but I haven't noticed any problems with the few programs I have watched. I just checked my signal strength, and I'm getting my usual 85%.

Most people don't have pure RF signal strength meters. Instead they have a "Signal Quality" meter, which typically measures the error rate before correction is applied. Signal strength might go down and may not be noticed, as long as the strength is "good enough".

I noticed a up-tick in signal strength for KDVR, Fox 31, yesterday and today, though no change for KWGN. I wonder if they completed the long advertised upgrades for KDVR DTV?

IMHO, if it isn't HD, it better be "must see TV". Thus, I don't tune to KRMA much at all. I did view them often back in the days when they ran the national HD feed on the DTV HD channel. Since almost all of those interesting programs are no more, KRMA just doesn't have much of a draw. Watching BBC reruns and Bill Moyers isn't my idea of "must see" content.

I'd love KRMA to dump their subchannels and devote every single bit to real HD feeds, but we know that ain't gonna happen in the near future.

As for my question: is anyone in the Loveland area able to pick up most or all of the OTA channels without putting an antenna up on the roof? Attic installations or powered indoor antennas?

I could sure use some advice. My aged parents are not all that thrilled about paying someone hundreds of dollars to put an antenna on the roof, especially with the poor HD quality (or complete lack of HD from some) we seem to be getting from the Denver locals.

Thank you and HAPPY HALLOWEEN!!!

Posted by Dan Hitchman:
especially with the poor HD quality (or complete lack of HD from some) we seem to be getting from the Denver locals.
???????
KUSA might not look the best with SNF, but I don't think HD gets any better than the Broncos on KCNC or KDVR.

Off topic comments edited.

Posted by Dan Hitchman:
???????
KUSA might not look the best with SNF, but I don't think HD gets any better than the Broncos on KCNC or KDVR.
No amount of HD could make the Broncos look good yesterday...:eek:

Anyone notice a drop in KTVD's (RF 19) signal strength lately?

I'm getting it in the low 70's on the signal meter, whereas it used to be around 90.

KCNC uses the same antenna on the LCG tower, and I get them at around 95.

Mark

I noticed a up-tick in signal strength for KDVR, Fox 31, yesterday and today, though no change for KWGN. I wonder if they completed the long advertised upgrades for KDVR DTV?

I saw a quick spot between programs last week that said something to the effect of "Fox 31, broadcasting with 1,000,000 watts of power!" so it's quite possible they did crank up the juice to full power.

I saw a quick spot between programs last week that said something to the effect of "Fox 31, broadcasting with 1,000,000 watts of power!" so it's quite possible they did crank up the juice to full power.

Meanwhile I just saw a PSA on KWGN saying they hoped to have full power "by the end of the year."

I saw a quick spot between programs last week that said something to the effect of "Fox 31, broadcasting with 1,000,000 watts of power!" so it's quite possible they did crank up the juice to full power.

The uptick in KDVR's disappeared when the snow melted.

I also noted yesterday that KWGN is now advertising "the end of the year" for the completion of their DTV upgrades. I wonder if it is money troubles or technical problems.

I also noted a lower output lately from KTVD, particularly as compared to KCNC. Still a strong high 70s signal on my oldest tuner, but should be in the mid-80s at least.

Posted by Dan Hitchman:

???????
KUSA might not look the best with SNF, but I don't think HD gets any better than the Broncos on KCNC or KDVR.

Broadcast HD vs. Blu-ray, the current premium HD delivery method.

To me, broadcast HD (and cable or satellite HD) is HD-lite.

Hi All,

Well I made the jump and cancelled my comcast service today. I just cant stand paying for cable any longer...

Sooo I'm a newb to going OTA. I have a Pioneer Elite 930 plasma that I love. It has the tv guide system built in which I have never used before.

At any rate, I'm trying to set up the best OTA I can. I live in the Highlands Square area - 80212.

I boguht a Radio Shack indoor antenna the one that looks like a star trek symbol sort of.

I hooked it up and I get very few channels... Now if I hook up the co-ax from my old cable to the tv I get a bunch of channels (with about 30-40% signal strength).

Any ideas on how I can get better signal? I do not get fox on either method so far...

Hi All,

Well I made the jump and cancelled my comcast service today. I just cant stand paying for cable any longer...

Sooo I'm a newb to going OTA. I have a Pioneer Elite 930 plasma that I love. It has the tv guide system built in which I have never used before.

At any rate, I'm trying to set up the best OTA I can. I live in the Highlands Square area - 80212.

I boguht a Radio Shack indoor antenna the one that looks like a star trek symbol sort of.

I hooked it up and I get very few channels... Now if I hook up the co-ax from my old cable to the tv I get a bunch of channels (with about 30-40% signal strength).

Any ideas on how I can get better signal? I do not get fox on either method so far...

Step 1: Go to TVfool.com and run an analysis using your exact street adress.

Step 2: Post the link back here to that page so we can see what signals are in your area.

Step 3: Wait for suggestions.

Without information specific to your location, any suggestion you'd get otherwise would be about as effective as a fart in a hurricane.

Thanks,

Here is the link-

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3dbc276fa5e0b28a

Thanks,

Here is the link-

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3dbc276fa5e0b28a

Does your antenna have a coax cable from it or a twin lead? You really need coax to avoid interference.

Do you have a West facing window in your TV room? If so, take your antenna to that window and point it West-SouthWest (i.e., 249 degrees magnetic; check it with a compass if you have one). Add coax with barrel connectors if you need a longer run to get from the window to your TV. Scan for OTA channels and tell us what you get. You have LOS to LOM and you are close with excellent signal strength at your location. You should be able to get the OTA channels from LOM with a set top antenna.

I'm not familiar with your antenna, what model is it? Did the box say it was for both UHF and VHF reception? DTV channels 7, 9, and 12 are in the VHF spectrum, so if your antenna is only for UHF, you won't be able to pick them up. You actually need "rabbit ears" to receive those stations.

Thanks for the help-

I figured out one problem - I had the antenna connected to the non-digital antenna part of my tv.

Now I'm getting more channels. I still sit in the 30s for reception strength though. But it doesnt look too bad I guess.

This antenna is for VHF and UHF - it has rabbit ears. Model number is 15-1868 I think? Its called Contemporary indoor HDTV/FM HD Radio Antenna

Thanks for the help-

I figured out one problem - I had the antenna connected to the non-digital antenna part of my tv.

Now I'm getting more channels. I still sit in the 30s for reception strength though. But it doesnt look too bad I guess.

This antenna is for VHF and UHF - it has rabbit ears. Model number is 15-1868 I think? Its called Contemporary indoor HDTV/FM HD Radio Antenna

Try the window as I suggested. A lot of house building materials shield you from the signals. Window glass doesn't unless it is leaded glass. Also place the antenna as high as possible. The rule of thumb is higher gets better reception.

Also with the rabbit ears, if they are the old style and telescope out 4 feet each, then you really don't need all that telescoping. Less than half the length of the old style rabbit ears is needed for high VHF. Many of the new DTV antennas come with fairly short rabbit ears.

Posted by sgtpeper:
Well I made the jump and cancelled my comcast service today. I just cant stand paying for cable any longer...
Your post, about an hour after the above quoted post, on the Denver Comcast thread indicates that you still have Comcast service. If so, depending on how you have your cables from Comcast and your antenna hooked up, such as via a splitter in reverse, may be affecting your ability to receive OTA reception. I think you need to clarify this as you should be receiving the LOM stations with a paper clip for an antenna.

That is a bit confusing yes. I cancelled cable the day I moved to my new place which was about 3 days ago. I have no comcast service other than internet currently.

The antenna is giving me channels. However, if I plug in the old cable wire in the house I get a whole different set of channels.

I posted in the comcast section bc I'm thinking out all my options. Just really sick of paying over 100 a month for channels I don't really watch or care about.

Has anybody been able to get a look at a digital signal that recently appeared on channel 30? I'm detecting something there, but it's too weak to lock. It may be from Syncom Media's facility on the Boulder-Jeffco line northwest of Rocky Flats. Syncom ran an analog translator on channel 30 carrying MTV2 and MTV Tres from that location until "Tres" moved to channel 28.

Has anybody been able to get a look at a digital signal that recently appeared on channel 30? I'm detecting something there, but it's too weak to lock. It may be from Syncom Media's facility on the Boulder-Jeffco line northwest of Rocky Flats. Syncom ran an analog translator on channel 30 carrying MTV2 and MTV Tres from that location until "Tres" moved to channel 28.

That's probably KGWN from Cheyenne.

That's probably KGWN from Cheyenne.
Don't think so: I'm 102 miles and two edges away. At -98 dBmV and almost 75 degrees off axis, even a whiff of KGWN is unlikely on my attic-mounted UHF antenna. The signal-level meter read zero after Syncom shut down its LP analog transmitter on channel 30 this summer and moved MTV Tres to 28-3. Syncom still has a permit (http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?list=0&facid=67552) for low-power analog operations on 30, which is why I thought of them.

I think jsmar is right. I occassionally receive KGWN with an unamped indoor antenna at 108.5 miles -81.2 dBm 1Edge. Not really watchable, but I get enough of a signal to get a marginal signal lock. This morning it's coming in at about 20% signal strength.

That is a bit confusing yes. I cancelled cable the day I moved to my new place which was about 3 days ago. I have no comcast service other than internet currently.

The antenna is giving me channels. However, if I plug in the old cable wire in the house I get a whole different set of channels.

I posted in the comcast section bc I'm thinking out all my options. Just really sick of paying over 100 a month for channels I don't really watch or care about.

If your TV has a Clear QAM tuner, you can pick up those Comcast digital channels that are unencrypted or if your TV still has a NTSC tuner, you can pick up the analog cable channels, most of which are no longer encrypted. A lot of cable internet users get those Comcast video signals as well as I believe it takes a special action in your local node box (somewhere in your neighborhood near your house) to cut off all video signals to your house. Since Comcast minimizes any field service that they can't charge you for, if they missed the cut off when they activitated your cable internet, they won't bother to send someone out to cut it off now.

Has anybody been able to get a look at a digital signal that recently appeared on channel 30? I'm detecting something there, but it's too weak to lock. It may be from Syncom Media's facility on the Boulder-Jeffco line northwest of Rocky Flats. Syncom ran an analog translator on channel 30 carrying MTV2 and MTV Tres from that location until "Tres" moved to channel 28.

So that is physical channel 30, correct? Any idea what the digital channel number is that it is (XX.X) displaying?

So that is physical channel 30, correct? Any idea what the digital channel number is that it is (XX.X) displaying?

KWGN is at Digital virtual channel 5-1 and 5-2 - RF30 @ 569 (566-572) MHz.

I get them quite well off the back of my Winegard YAGI with a lot of interfering ridges in the way.

So that is physical channel 30, correct? Any idea what the digital channel number is that it is (XX.X) displaying?
Yes, it's RF 30. I'm able to tune it manually as "30-1." The signal isn't strong enough to decode PSIP, so the digital channel doesn't appear on screen. The signal-level meter bounces between 5 and 15 out of 100; the tuner needs a stable 27 or higher to display video and audio as well as the station ID.

Don't think so: I'm 102 miles and two edges away. At -98 dBmV and almost 75 degrees off axis, even a whiff of KGWN is unlikely on my attic-mounted UHF antenna. The signal-level meter read zero after Syncom shut down its LP analog transmitter on channel 30 this summer and moved MTV Tres to 28-3. Syncom still has a permit (http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?list=0&facid=67552) for low-power analog operations on 30, which is why I thought of them.

I still believe it is most likely KGWN. First, Syncom has never applied for a construction permit to broadcast digitally, so they don't have the right to broadcast a digital signal. Second, they applied for and were granted a displacement to Channel 6. So if they have come up on Channel 6 (analog) then they no longer have the right to broadcast anything on Channel 30.

The only other digital signal on Channel 30 that might be possible is a low power station in Colorado Springs (K30AA, 3KW ERP). I think that is even less likely than KGWN which is broadcasting with an ERP of 459 KW. I'm not sure they are on the air yet (they applied for an extension, since they said they could not make it by 11/2). The only reason I mention this possibility is that they did believe they would be on the air within the month, and you mentioned that the signal appeared only recently. If it was in the last few days perhaps it is possible that it is K30AA, but I still believe that KGWN is the only reasonable possibility.

You mentioned that your signal meter went to 0 when the analog Syncom station went off the air. Does your tuner have two different meters (i.e. one for strength and one for "quality")? I ask because most digital signal meters are actually error rate (before correction) meters, and they won't show anything at all in the presence of even a very strong analog signal. It would be very confusing for a tuner that only had one meter to show a strong analog signal if it could only tune digital stations. Also, pure signal strength meters almost never go to 0, because there is almost always some level of noise on each channel (possibly boosted by an antenna preamp). My HD Homerun has three different meters, one being a pure signal strength meter. I don't get a reading below about 25 on any station, including channel 37 which doesn't have any TV stations on it (of course actual numbers can't be compared between different tuners).

If your meter is not a signal strength meter, and is instead an (inverse) error rate meter then it is subject to the digital "cliff" effect, which means that going from a reading of 0 to something more significant can happen with a very small change in received signal strength. Perhaps it is as simple as the leaves falling off a nearby tree which increased your ability to see KGWN's signal. It's almost impossible to take into account everything that affects long range reception of a station. I get a variety of stations from Colorado Springs from time to time. Two of them are high VHF, but I actually receive KRDO (RF Channel 24, 200KW ERP) more often than the VHF stations, and sometimes without errors. KRDO doesn't even show up on my TV Fool output, but other Colorado Springs stations that do, and transmit from the same location are 125 miles and two edges away.

Jsmar,

It's an integrated HDTV with both analog and digital tuners. The meter (digital only -- it always reads zero on analog signals) gives only a "signal level" reading that's probably the inverse of the uncorrected error rate. It has a habit of bouncing around at the bottom of the scale until the tuner locks, and then it bounces right up. I only wish it included a second meter showing the S/N ratio, which would be a lot more useful to me.

Perhaps you're right about KGWN or K30AA in the Springs. I also get a slight whiff of KRDO-DT's RF 24 signal @ 61 miles, 2 edges and 105 degrees off axis. However, Syncom doesn't have anything up and running on channel 6. I know, I know: An LD signal on RF 30 out of Denver makes no sense, particularly since Syncom already has paperwork in for an LD station on RF 31. (They're all over the place: They're running KLPD on RF 28, and they have another LD permit for RF 55 that's currently silent. You just never know with these guys; that's why I have to wonder about this.)

At any rate, I appreciate your detailed answer.

I noticed some new signals today, at least new for me. KSBS-CA 52-1 with some old orange and black programming with 52-2, 52-3 and 52-4 showing color bars.

I noticed some new signals today, at least new for me. KSBS-CA 52-1 with some old orange and black programming with 52-2, 52-3 and 52-4 showing color bars.

What is the "real" channel number?

I believe the RF channel is 47.

What is the "real" channel number?

I believe the RF channel is 47.

The real RF channel for their analog service is 47. Currently they are not planning on a flash cut, so they applied for and received permission for a digital companion channel on RF channel 52. I would think that long term they would be better off with an in core channel, so perhaps when they eventually terminate their analog service they will move their digital service to RF channel 47.

Note that these are two different facilities, with different facility id's.

My Sony indicates it is RF52. My signal is in the 30's but my outside RS yagi is pointed at Lookout where most other signals are in the 90's. It must be broadcasting from elsewhere.

It looks like the transmitter is SW, maybe around Sedalia?

It looks like the transmitter is SW, maybe around Sedalia?

Yes, about 5 miles SW of Sedalia.

Antenna Question:

I have a roof-mounted CM 3023 (Castle Rock), but am currently unable to receive 7-1 (ABC) and 9-1 (NBC) since the switch from RP. However, 4-1 and 31-1 come in just fine. Is this because the CM 3023 is UHF-only, and I need to replace it with a VHF/UHF combo antenna?

Thanks.

Antenna Question:

I have a roof-mounted CM 3023 (Castle Rock), but am currently unable to receive 7-1 (ABC) and 9-1 (NBC) since the switch from RP. However, 4-1 and 31-1 come in just fine. Is this because the CM 3023 is UHF-only, and I need to replace it with a VHF/UHF combo antenna?

Thanks.
I would not have expected the move from Republic Plaza to have cost you 7 and 9 if you were still getting 4 an 31. I believe the Lake Cedar Group antenna came on line late in the spring of 2008, which is when the group members left RP. Until the final DTV transition date, on June 12, 2009, the digital versions of 7 and 9 were on UHF frequencies. I would have expected your antenna to receive them OK until then.

From what I could find, no one seems to be reporting that the CM 3023 has decent upper VHF band characteristics, which 7 and 9 now require. You are probably going to need a new antenna that is a VHF/UHF combo, but you probably only need one rated for the high VHF band and UHF. I don't think anyone is broacasting in the low VHF band around here any more. The new antennas designed for high VHF and UHF don't need the longest element of a full range combo which tends to make them smaller and less vulnerable to strong winds.

I have a CM 3023 on 10 foot pole on my roof. I have had it there since 2002 when I needed it to pick up the "coat hanger" transmitter on the top of the Channel 7 low building. Otherwise, a RS double bow tie would have worked then. Both are UHF antennas. I live about 20 miles SE of Lookout near CC State Park.

I wondered whether the CM 3023 would pick up 7 and 9 when they moved to the actual 7 and 9 high VHF frequency.

Well, they do work OK for me. My D* receivers (the AM21 OTA add-on) show the signal strength at about 50 to 55 and they lock with no problem. The other channels in the UHF spectrum mostly show 100%. So, even though the strength is way lower, it works for me. Obviously, YMMV (and probably is) and you probably need a small VHF/UHF combo antenna.

Good luck.

I replaced my roof-mounted CM 3021 with a Winegard 7694 UHF/VHF antenna and it works great. I too am in Castle Rock.

http://winegard.com/kbase/upload/HD7694P.pdf

Thanks for the advice. I wanted to get a couple of opinions before I blew the $$ on a new antenna.

Iwanthd - are you using a preamp or just the 7694? Any other recommendations? Antennaweb says I'm about 32 mi from LM.

Thanks again.

Thanks for the advice. I wanted to get a couple of opinions before I blew the $$ on a new antenna.

Iwanthd - are you using a preamp or just the 7694? Any other recommendations? Antennaweb says I'm about 32 mi from LM.

Thanks again.

I had a pre-amp for the CM 3021 UHF antenna (and needed it!), but i removed it when I put up the 7694 and all is well. I have also split the signal to 3 locations in my house. My distance from LM is about 31 mi.

KRMA Construction Permit

http://licensing.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/prefill_and_display.pl?Application_id=1334950&Service=DT&Form_id=340&Facility_id=14040

I saw this new CP grant for KRMA, but have been out of the loop regarding this station for a while.

What is their current status? Are they still on the Ice Bridge?

Thanks,

KRMA Construction Permit

http://licensing.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/prefill_and_display.pl?Application_id=1334950&Service=DT&Form_id=340&Facility_id=14040

I saw this new CP grant for KRMA, but have been out of the loop regarding this station for a while.

What is their current status? Are they still on the Ice Bridge?

Thanks,
Nope. They moved to the top of the old analog 20 tower with a brand new antenna and transmitter in August and should be solid for most of the metro area. I would think anyone who gets LCG well should have no problem with KRMA if they point the antenna between Lookout Mountain and Mount Morrison.

For you football fans, if you don't like watching the Redskins, switch to 5.1 - Cheyenne and watch Indy at Houston. Houston is kicking 10-0 Indy right before halftime 20 to 7.

For you football fans, if you don't like watching the Redskins, switch to 5.1 - Cheyenne and watch Indy at Houston. Houston is kicking 10-0 Indy right before halftime 20 to 7.

Wish I could. Seeing Michael Vick on the field just turns my stomach.

Wish I could. Seeing Michael Vick on the field just turns my stomach.


AMEN!!

Phil

Watched SNF on KUSA tonight. Video with motion was just horrible - pixelation and blockiness. I guess running 24 hour weather and constant replays of the Olympics is more important to Gannett than a quality HD picture. But My20 is MyT fine.

Watched SNF on KUSA tonight. Video with motion was just horrible - pixelation and blockiness. I guess running 24 hour weather and constant replays of the Olympics is more important to Gannett than a quality HD picture. But My20 is MyT fine.

Watching anything HD on KUSA is a joke.

For example, some morning look at the difference in quality between their news broadcasts when they flip over to 20.

KUSA looks little better than bit-starved streaming video these days.

Between that and their upcoming stories graphics on the right hand side I've started watching the news on KCNC and KMGH instead.

Good thing there's nothing on NBC save for Heroes that I watch anymore either.

It's almost enough to make you cry if you've been around long enough to remember what The Tonight Show and 2002 Olympics looked like when they were broadcasting from Republic Plaza…

The old towers on Lookout Mountain are coming down (http://www.denverpost.com/ci_13890508) soon.

End of this year for two of them. And Deb is still complaining. Not sure there's much cause for her cynicism, since most of the delays were her fault.


"Until they come down, I've taken the position of I'll believe it when I see it," said Deb Carney, attorney for the Canyon Area Residents for the Environment


Ahh, she probably misses the good old days.

It's funny, years later I still refuse to go see anything where Lannie Garrett performs because she did a benefit concert for sCARE.

Nope. They moved to the top of the old analog 20 tower with a brand new antenna and transmitter in August and should be solid for most of the metro area. I would think anyone who gets LCG well should have no problem with KRMA if they point the antenna between Lookout Mountain and Mount Morrison.

Thank you. Looking at the more recent STA and CP, it appears that they are removing the 1 degree mechanical beam-tilt (if they haven't done so already).

From the STA filing:

THE KRMA-DT ANTENNA WAS INSTALLED WITH MECHANICAL BEAM TILT AS REFLECTED IN THE INSTANT APPLICATION. HOWEVER, THIS MECHANICAL BEAM TILT HAS BEEN DETERMINED TO BE UNNECESSARY AND THE ANTENNA WILL BE REMOUNTED WITHOUT MECHANICAL TILT IN THE COMING MONTHS. THE ATTACHED EXHIBITS ARE BASED ON NO MECHANICAL BEAM TILT.

http://licensing.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/prefill_and_display.pl?Application_id=1334954&Service=DS&Form_id=911&Facility_id=14040

End of this year for two of them. And Deb is still complaining. Not sure there's much cause for her cynicism, since most of the delays were her fault.



Ahh, she probably misses the good old days.

Or bemoaning the fact she does not have a job anymore :)

The old towers on Lookout Mountain are coming down (http://www.denverpost.com/ci_13890508) soon.

In looking at the press releases in the papers it seemed to imply that they still have to switch from the old towers to the new ones. I was under the impression the switches have already been made - right?

In looking at the press releases in the papers it seemed to imply that they still have to switch from the old towers to the new ones. I was under the impression the switches have already been made - right?

I didn't get that implication from the article. It's my understanding that the 4 LCG stations are on the new tower, and there's no more switching to be done.

FYI, I just received this thread update from Tom Craig at Rocky Mountain PBS, answering the latest plaintive "when already?" from another HD-starved viewer --

As of this moment, we are slated to begin an implementation/integration of HD master control facility beginning about February 1st. We are waiting to here (sic) on a federal grant that was originally to have been announced last June. We should have the new control center completed by June -- IF we are awarded the grant, which we are led to believe we will receive.
In this depressed economy, we cannot easily self-fund the build-out, hence our dependency upon grants to assist us with this very costly undertaking.
I assure you that our entire staff looks forward to presenting you an HD signal as much as you look forward to receiving one.
Respectfully,
Tom Craig
Director of Engineering and Production Technology

Do you get the feeling he's really sick of anwering questions about a restored 1080p signal by now?

Do you get the feeling he's really sick of anwering questions about a restored 1080p signal by now?

Of course they could always dump the two subchannels and go back to presenting PBS in HD full-time… nah.

Of course they could always dump the two subchannels and go back to presenting PBS in HD full-time… nah.

Of course you mean the three (3) subchannels! With that drag on the system, the HD PQ, whenever it is available, won't be much more than HD-Lite.

FYI, I just received this thread update from Tom Craig at Rocky Mountain PBS, answering the latest plaintive "when already?" from another HD-starved viewer ...

Do you get the feeling he's really sick of anwering questions about a restored 1080p signal by now?
Sure do, but I don't have a lot of sympathy for his predicament. RMPBS has broken promise after promise as to when HD would be restored, and it's always because they never have enough money -- despite the fact that their pledge drives are longer and more numerous than most other PBS affiliates in the country. If revenue from pledges, government grants and corporate sponsorships were to double overnight, my hunch is that they'd still bawl about how little money they have and how much more they could do... if only they could just reach a tiny bit deeper into your wallet... but just this once...

Whining about slow government grants won't cut it anymore, RMPBS. Just do whatever it takes to get HD done, and you just might be pleasantly surprised at how quickly your pledge revenues begin to blossom.

The big question is how many years KRMA management knew they would have to upgrade their equipment to be able to broadcast HD and why was the ball dropped when it wasn't done by the digital transition date. Sounds like VERY poor planning.

It is pretty embarrassing that we are one of the only major markets without a PBS in HD.

KDEO-LD (channel 23-2) has changed it's programming from White Springs TV (http://www.whitesprings.tv) to My Family TV (http://myfamilytv.tv). From their web site, it appears that White Springs TV is transitioning to a new format, so that's most likely what prompted the change for KDEO.

The new programming seems to have a little better audio/video quality than before. However, it is still left channel audio only. Although this isn't a great leap forward by any means, the new programming does include some classic sitcoms like Ozzie and Harriet, The Beverly Hillbillies, and The Lucy Show as well as a variety of old movies and serials.

My TiVo schedule doesn't reflect the change yet, but you can find a complete schedule at the KDEO web site (http://www.kdeo-ld.com). Just thought I'd pass this information along in case anyone else was interested. Have a great day!

Must be the frigid weather, but KCNC-4, My20, and Fox 31 are coming in with the highest readings I've seen since the transition.

Must be the frigid weather, but KCNC-4, My20, and Fox 31 are coming in with the highest readings I've seen since the transition.

I think that there is something to that. I always get better reception when the temperature drops, but snow or rain seem to interfere.

I'm staying at a local hotel, with very nice HD TV's, but there are no HD channels available on the house cable. To make matters worse, they have a metal barrel over the coax input so I can even take the cable off and put in a paper clip to get some channels. I see the antennas (on lookout mtn?).
Sorry to come to this forum to complain...just sayin' you may want to travel with a tuner card for your laptop.
The TV does have an HDMI input available though.

Has KQCK gone away? Up until a week ago I could get them solid all the time now nothing. It was always TV roulette as to what was on because without the PSIP data you never knew. There were occasional travel show that weren't too bad.

Has KQCK gone away?

I'm having similar issues with it. It's still on-air; my signal-level meter still shows murmurs on 11. I've chalked it up to snow scatter and cold temperatures combined with a weak, low-quality signal. At that distance, KQCK must be very weak, even under the best of circumstances.

Actually I always got a solid lock since I changed the antenna out in June. It has to do with the way the mountains lie up here. Almost all morning and evenings I get KLWY out of Cheyenne from 146 miles away. I also was hoping to get KCDO once, and if, they get the new transmitter going south of Fort Morgan. TV fool shows it as 96 miles from me but I have almost a 5,000 ft elevation difference. Anybody heard anything?

I'm having similar issues with it. It's still on-air; my signal-level meter still shows murmurs on 11. I've chalked it up to snow scatter and cold temperatures combined with a weak, low-quality signal. At that distance, KQCK must be very weak, even under the best of circumstances.

KQCK has been off the air since about 1:00 AM last Saturday (12/5), according to my reception logs. If you see any kind of reading it is probably due to noise / other distant stations (you're not ever getting a digital lock are you?). KQCK's signal is not that strong, but I'm only 4 miles LOS from the transmitter, and I have an outdoor high VHF antenna. If their transmitter is putting anything out it certainly is not a decodeable signal.

I also was hoping to get KCDO once, and if, they get the new transmitter going south of Fort Morgan. TV fool shows it as 96 miles from me but I have almost a 5,000 ft elevation difference. Anybody heard anything?
They just filed a transition status report that says that their new transmitter and antenna is on site, and the tower is under construction. They expect to be operational in about a month.

KQCK has been off the air since about 1:00 AM last Saturday (12/5), according to my reception logs. If you see any kind of reading it is probably due to noise / other distant stations (you're not ever getting a digital lock are you?).
No lock, and you're completely right. My info was out of date: I had looked at the channel a few days ago, when the meter was bouncing around in the "something-there-but-I-can't-decode-it" range. Tuned the channel last night, and it's not budging from zero now.

I have a Pannasonic TH-42PX500U that has both and analog and digital tuner -

I have not been able to get tv guide (also built in the TV) information since about April... Now that I am getting all channels in strong I am back on the quest for a fix

I have contacted Panny and done all of their recommendations reset wait 24 hrs reset wait 48hrs install a firmware patch and finally wait for TVGOS to call.

Well TVGOS called and told me I needed a digital to analog converter - I don't see how this could help since my tv has both tuners in it... I also think it may degrade my digital picture by converting it to analog.

Anyway if anyone knows another host channel (I've tried 4.1) for TVGOS information I would certainly be up to doing VBI Search Current Channel to see if that fixes the problem - or any other suggestions would be welcome too

BTW I am attempting to do this via OTA -

I have a Pannasonic TH-42PX500U that has both and analog and digital tuner -

I have not been able to get tv guide (also built in the TV) information since about April... Now that I am getting all channels in strong I am back on the quest for a fix

I have contacted Panny and done all of their recommendations reset wait 24 hrs reset wait 48hrs install a firmware patch and finally wait for TVGOS to call.

Well TVGOS called and told me I needed a digital to analog converter - I don't see how this could help since my tv has both tuners in it... I also think it may degrade my digital picture by converting it to analog.

Anyway if anyone knows another host channel (I've tried 4.1) for TVGOS information I would certainly be up to doing VBI Search Current Channel to see if that fixes the problem - or any other suggestions would be welcome too

What TVGOS told you doesn't sound correct at all. I have a new Sony with both a digital and an analog tuner and a TV Guide option for the on-board, OTA tuners. Works fine, except for having two different listings for channel 12.1.

What TVGOS told you doesn't sound correct at all. I have a new Sony with both a digital and an analog tuner and a TV Guide option for the on-board, OTA tuners. Works fine, except for having two different listings for channel 12.1.


Do you happen to know the host channel you Sony is using to receive the tv guide information?

Do you happen to know the host channel you Sony is using to receive the tv guide information?

No, but I'll see if I can figure it out. Might be a while as the wife is watching movies on Dish at the moment.

Do you happen to know the host channel you Sony is using to receive the tv guide information?

KCNC is the only station sending TVGOS information in the Denver market. It is possible that the TVGOS folks are right in your case. Your Panasonic TV was designed 4-5 years ago, and although it has a digital tuner, it may not support digital TVGOS, i.e. it may only support analog TVGOS in the vbi. In that case you would need a converter box like the DTVpal+ that converts digital TVGOS to analog TVGOS.

The AVS Forum TVGOS thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1122914) has some information on how to get the TVGOS firmware version. Your TVGOS firmware needs to be v08.xx.65 or later in order to support digital TVGOS. You may also consider posting in that thread to see if anyone there can help you.

Do you know if the firmware update they provided was to add digital TVGOS support?

Note that CEB II has a recent model Sony Bravia TV, which supports the latest TVGOS protocol.

KCNC is the only station sending TVGOS information in the Denver market. It is possible that the TVGOS folks are right in your case. Your Panasonic TV was designed 4-5 years ago, and although it has a digital tuner, it may not support digital TVGOS, i.e. it may only support analog TVGOS in the vbi. In that case you would need a converter box like the DTVpal+ that converts digital TVGOS to analog TVGOS.

The AVS Forum TVGOS thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1122914) has some information on how to get the TVGOS firmware version. Your TVGOS firmware needs to be v08.xx.65 or later in order to support digital TVGOS. You may also consider posting in that thread to see if anyone there can help you.

Do you know if the firmware update they provided was to add digital TVGOS support?

Note that CEB II has a recent model Sony Bravia TV, which supports the latest TVGOS protocol.


The firmware version for TVGOS is 08.xx.53, every time I tried to give this information to Panasonic they said they only need to know the firmware version of the TV :confused:

The firware update provided had nothing to do with TVGOS. I will look on the TVGOS forum to see where I can find a firmware update for that

thanks

I have a Pannasonic TH-42PX500U that has both and analog and digital tuner -

I have not been able to get tv guide (also built in the TV) information since about April... Now that I am getting all channels in strong I am back on the quest for a fix

I have contacted Panny and done all of their recommendations reset wait 24 hrs reset wait 48hrs install a firmware patch and finally wait for TVGOS to call.

Well TVGOS called and told me I needed a digital to analog converter - I don't see how this could help since my tv has both tuners in it... I also think it may degrade my digital picture by converting it to analog.

Anyway if anyone knows another host channel (I've tried 4.1) for TVGOS information I would certainly be up to doing VBI Search Current Channel to see if that fixes the problem - or any other suggestions would be welcome too

BTW I am attempting to do this via OTA -
thanks[/QUOTE]

I have a V7 Panny DMR-EH50 and TVGOS hasn't worked correctly since the transition. I'm OTA only - using a DTVPal and can't get the correct channel line up- I get 4 channels in my grid and 2 extra CBS stations that aren't in the Denver market. All attempts to get a response from Macrovision/Rovi about the botched channel lineup failed (other V7 device owners have confirmed the same OTA channel lineup).
Manual editing to fix the channel lineup gets reset every 36 hours or so. Evidently has something to do with the hard limit on the number of channels in V7.
V8 doesn't have the same channel limit.


There's a thread about firmware updates for Panny TV's at http://www.hdtvoice.com/voice/showthread.php?t=24748 though most of the info is old.

The latest Panasonic firmware page I can turn up is http://www.pasctraining.panasonic.com/firmware/



Update:

Ah, since your version of V8 is not the patched version which can handle the digital data directly. TVGOS version patches are pushed out through the TVGOS service. People on the LG and Sony TVGOS threads often discuss which TVGOS patch has been pushed, and when they have to start over - how long it takes for the patches to get reinstalled. Since you ran fine on the analog version before - you might try patching in a DTVPal to your analog input and see if it updates your TVGOS version from .53 to the desired .65 or higher.


This thread explains version numbers and how patches are pushed through the VBI
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1122914

Update:
Talking with some people about TVGOS last night - someone suggested that connecting it to a Comcast cable feed might also push the latest TVGOS updates.

Anyone else notice that DTV channel 53 (KWHD) now has a sub-channel? Don't know when that happened as I don't check those kinds of things very often. It has yet to show up in TVGOS for my Sony OTA tuner.

Anyone else notice that DTV channel 53 (KWHD) now has a sub-channel? Don't know when that happened as I don't check those kinds of things very often. It has yet to show up in TVGOS for my Sony OTA tuner.

Yes, they added it on 12/9, but last I checked, the video programming is an exact duplicate of the other channel. About a month or two ago I came across something that mentioned that KWHD had plans to add the second subchannel, but I don't remember where I saw it, and I don't remember what they said about programming. I think this is still a work in progress ...

Transmitter maintenance (shutdown) just announced on ch 7's 10pm newscast. Starts at 12:07 am tonight and lasts several hours. OTA & Dish will be dead; Directv and Comcast will be on.

Yes, they added it on 12/9, but last I checked, the video programming is an exact duplicate of the other channel. About a month or two ago I came across something that mentioned that KWHD had plans to add the second subchannel, but I don't remember where I saw it, and I don't remember what they said about programming. I think this is still a work in progress ...

Yesterday morning when I stumbled upon channel 53-2, it had different content than 53-1, but I didn't do much investigating beyond that as nothing showed for programming in TVGOS or my Dish EPG for 53-2, just the default digital television statement.

Update: Checking at around 11 AM this morning, 53-1 and 53-2 were a simulcast. My Dish EPG and TV's TVGOS both just list the programming on 53-2 as "Digital Service".

I noticed last night that KLPD added a new subchannel (28-3 Your Weather Network). Just what we needed, another weather channel. :rolleyes: The pathetic thing is that they don't even offer a local forecast for Denver. The only local forecasts are for Los Angeles and Memphis. WTF? :confused: By the way, KLPD bumped TellyTopia (i2TV) from 28-3 to 28-5.

Anybody know what KWHD's plans are for their new subchannel? Every time I've flipped by 53-2, they have been showing the same programming as 53-1.

I think the various LeSEA stations are adding the World Harvest channel on their xx-2 subchannels. I think it does simulcast with the primary feed at times.

- Trip

FYI - If watching the Bronco's isn't your style, Green Bay @ Pittsburg is on the Cheyenne Fox station, 27.1 .

FYI - If watching the Bronco's isn't your style, Green Bay @ Pittsburg is on the Cheyenne Fox station, 27.1 .

Only if Green Bay is kicking their butts.

I just did a rescan this morning and it looks like KQCK is back on the air. They were showing a golf program this morning. I still get a 90% signal on a CM 7000 receiver from 106 miles out. If they could get their PSIP data correct I might actually record something once in a while. Their video quality is pretty bad, however, even for SD.

I know the Bronco game was painful to watch yesterday, but did any of you catch the HD video of Winter Park from a chair-lift during the first half of the game? Absolutely the best HD PQ I've ever seen. I'll swear it was like I was on the chair-lift (I ski Winter Park) and I could just reach out and touch those tall pine trees. Not sure if it was live or videotape, but whatever, CBS really did something right with those shots. I hope others of you got to see it as it really showed what HDTV can do.

BTW, I was watching the OTA KCNC broadcast via the on-board tuner in my Sony Z5100, which is a superior tuner to the ones that Dish puts in their HD receivers. I think that HD PQ-wise, it was as good as it gets. My wife was clearly experiencing the WOW factor of HDTV again when she saw those shots.

Merry Christmas to all and to all, good OTA DTV viewing in 2010.

I agree - the Winter Park shots on 4-1 were incredible, OTA. I recognized the views from those lift rides. It DID look live. In contrast, last night on Ch 9-1 the fast motion scenes of the game was horrible, with constant pixelation.

Merry Christmas, Hanukkah, Solstice, et al.

Those would be some impressive live shots. A lot of effort just for NFL filler material. But I agree - great PQ - nice for the Chamber of Commerce.

I think the various LeSEA stations are adding the World Harvest channel on their xx-2 subchannels. I think it does simulcast with the primary feed at times.

- Trip

I got a response to my email to KWHD on this subject and they confirmed that they will be showing WHT on 53-2 in the near future.

I need some help. I am in the process of making the switch from satellite to OTA but need some advice on both the antenna to use and installation.

First, the antenna. I am in North Thornton about 22 miles from most towers. I am looking at the Antennacraft HBU33 High-VHF/UHF Antenna from RadioShack. Is this a good antenna? Is it too much or too little for where I am?

Second, the installation. How can I find someone to install the antenna as I want to ensure that it will hold up in the weather?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Matt

I need some help. I am in the process of making the switch from satellite to OTA but need some advice on both the antenna to use and installation...

Welcome, Matt!

That's a good antenna choice for your distance. You might even be able to step down to its little brother, the HBU22, as long as 1) the antenna will supply broadcast signals to only one TV, 2) you're planning to mount the antenna above the roof, and 3) the downlead cable would be less than 50 feet long from antenna to TV. If any one of these factors won't be true, stick with the HBU33.

Installation contractors are in the Yellow Pages under listings such as "Television antennas," "TV antenna sales/service" and the like. You can also try calling independent satellite-dish installers for quotes. They'll have everything needed for a basic installation with the exception of the antenna, mount and mast (aka pole). Ask your RS salesperson whether they know of any independent installers.

Be certain to ask each prospective installer whether they know how to ground an outdoor antenna mast and mount per National Electrical Code standards. That's important given all those thunderstorms we get around here in summer. For a basic idea of what NEC requires, search for "Grounding Outdoor Antennas" about three-quarters of the way down this page (http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/basics.html).

[QUOTE=Don_M;17773110]1) the antenna will supply broadcast signals to only one TV

Thanks Don. I appreciate the time and information. I do have one more question. I plan to set the antenna up for 3 maybe 4 TV's. Will the HBU33 work if I have that many TV's?

I plan to set the antenna up for 3 maybe 4 TV's. Will the HBU33 work if I have that many TV's?

It's impossible to predict, really. The best way to proceed is to raise the antenna, wire the system and check reception at each tuner. If having that many sets "dilutes" the signals enough that pauses or breakups occur, add a pre-amplifier to the antenna. The best choice for suburban signal locations is Winegard's HDP-269, which RS also sells.

Thanks Don. I really appreciate the help.

Matt

How hard is it to find/buy a RF demodulator that outputs A/V signals from an RF-ch 3-coax input?
In other words, the opposite of the standard $25 RF modulator at RS.
Wouldn't an old vcr do what I want (coax in, a/v signals out)?

Denver Fox stations are showing Panthers at Giants; Fox-Cheyenne 27.1 is carrying Seattle at Green Bay for the early game.

How hard is it to find/buy a RF demodulator that outputs A/V signals from an RF-ch 3-coax input?
In other words, the opposite of the standard $25 RF modulator at RS.
Wouldn't an old vcr do what I want (coax in, a/v signals out)?

You're basically looking for a channel 3 analog tuner. Yes, an old vcr with a tuner should do the trick. The vcr tape record/play functionality doesn't even have to work for this application.

KRMA switched to HD (1080i) from 9 AM to 10 AM on 6.1. According to the TV guide, that was during Sesame Street, so I don't think this was done due to the special programming (like they did for the National Parks broadcast). Perhaps this was a test for some other special programming, or maybe they actually got some new equipment that they were testing out.

How hard is it to find/buy a RF demodulator that outputs A/V signals from an RF-ch 3-coax input?
In other words, the opposite of the standard $25 RF modulator at RS.
Wouldn't an old vcr do what I want (coax in, a/v signals out)?

An old VCR is the cheapest and quickest solution to your problem. RF Demodulators are out their in the world, but they are hard to find, pricey, and generally have less or more audio out capability than what you are probably looking for (i.e., stereo out, red and white RCA plugs).

Here is a sampling of the cheaper RF demodulators available on-line. I couldn't find any with stereo audio out, but the next step up is DD5.1 out and then you are talking $500/$600.:

http://www.alibaba.com/product-free/255348843/MCM_RF_Demodulator_CH_3_IN.html

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=370165898902&rvr_id=&crlp=1_263602_263622&UA=M*S%3F&GUID=fe6750e410f0a04139c5f885fffedeb3&itemid=370165898902&ff4=263602_263622#ht_536wt_1131

Denver Fox stations are showing Panthers at Giants; Fox-Cheyenne 27.1 is carrying Seattle at Green Bay for the early game.

Both were blow-outs. The Steelers/Ravens game on KCNC was quite exciting though, and I don't even like either team.

KDEO-LD TV23 will move to UHF Channel 50 on or about Jan 9th at 1200 MST.
This is happening as KCDO-DT will sign on their full power Channel 23 on or about Jan 15th. KCDO-DT will keep its Channel3 branding and KDEO-LD will remain as YV23. A 5th channel on TV23 will appear soon. Programming will consist of the Western Heritage Channel that is being formed in Denver. TV23 will maintain its nostaligic programming on 23.2.
TV23 broadcasts from Mt. Morrison with ERP at 15KW, with a wide cardiod pattern.

Programming will consist of the Western Heritage Channel that is being formed in Denver.

Let's hear more about this Western Heritage channel.

KRMA switched to HD (1080i) from 9 AM to 10 AM on 6.1. According to the TV guide, that was during Sesame Street, so I don't think this was done due to the special programming (like they did for the National Parks broadcast). Perhaps this was a test for some other special programming, or maybe they actually got some new equipment that they were testing out.

KRMA has been switching to 1080i from 9-10 AM every morning for Sesame Street. Still not sure why they are doing it. I haven't seen anything on their website that says anything about it, but I could easily miss something under their panorama forum.

Anyone else notice KRMA was off the air around 9:00 PM 12/30?

At least when I checked I was seeing zero signal on UHF 18…

Anyone else notice KRMA was off the air around 9:00 PM 12/30?

At least when I checked I was seeing zero signal on UHF 18…

My logs show they were off the air from about 7:20 PM until about 9:45 PM. When they came back at 9:45 PM they were at significantly lower power. They were back to full power at around 11:00 PM.

KCEC (RF Channel 51, Display Channel 50) added a second subchannel today which is broadcasting content from the LATV network (according to Wikipedia, it is a "bilingual music and entertainment network"). Right now the sound is not working for me.

I believe the owner of Entravision has an ownership interest in LATV. I know anywhere that LATV is not aired on a more popular station, the local Entravision station seems to have picked it up. I'm actually surprised it took so long to show up on KCEC.

- Trip

KMGH filed a License to Cover for 48kW, on 12/28, stating operations at that power.

http://licensing.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/prefill_and_display.pl?Application_id=1350028&Service=DT&Form_id=2&Facility_id=40875

Has anyone noticed a difference in the signal? I don't think they had an STA for 48kW.

Philly @ Dallas on ch 27-1 in Cheyenne, WY while Denver Fox stations show "Cops".

KMGH filed a License to Cover for 48kW, on 12/28, stating operations at that power.

http://licensing.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/prefill_and_display.pl?Application_id=1350028&Service=DT&Form_id=2&Facility_id=40875

Has anyone noticed a difference in the signal? I don't think they had an STA for 48kW.

They had a construction permit approved for 48KW back in May, and I presume they went to that power level within a few days of that approval. So I don't believe there have been any recent changes.

KMGH responded to my e-mail stating they upped the power to 48kW before Christmas.

KMGH filed a License to Cover for 48kW, on 12/28, stating operations at that power.

http://licensing.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/prefill_and_display.pl?Application_id=1350028&Service=DT&Form_id=2&Facility_id=40875

Has anyone noticed a difference in the signal? I don't think they had an STA for 48kW.

I've been reading a maximum signal, without an amp, from KMGH since transition, so I wouldn't see any change with their ERP increase. KUSA-DT, OTOH, has consistently been a few points below maximum and I would expect to see something if they bump up their ERP. Oddly, KBDI, which is lower power, further away, and off-axis for the same antenna, has consistently come in with a maximum signal.

Overall, the VHF DTV stations have done very well at my location (in a valley, 10 miles, E-NE of LOM), but I need to use a Winegard HDP-269 to get the UHF stations out of the 60s and 70s.

Philly @ Dallas on ch 27-1 in Cheyenne, WY while Denver Fox stations show "Cops".
One of the myriad of NFL black-out rules is that if a local team game is on, it is the only NFL game allowed to be on, so KDVR was not allowed to put a game on to compete with the Broncos game. Cheyenne is far enough away to not be affected by that rule.

I am having issues receiving KDVR Fox 31's OTA/Off-Air signal at my home in Hilltop/Cherry Creek Denver.

This problem started recently within the past week or so. Before that I had no problem getting a consistent strong signal.

This issue occurs on all 3 TV's in the house. Each TV has a different antenna (2 are indoor antennas and one TV has a rooftop antenna). In fact, the TV with the rooftop antenna has two rooftop antenna (a yagi type and a DB) on a switch.

The indoor antenna TV's have no sat or cable boxes hooked to them and both receive no Channel 31 broadcast signal now. All other locals come in fine, including the sister station CW2. I tried erasing all digital channels and rescanning. Now the TVs do not even find Fox 31!!

The TV with the 2 roof antenna is hooked ot a DISH DVR 622 and uses that DVRs tuner for OTA digital. After a rescan it now sees Fox 31 but the signal is 20-30% weaker than all other locals and frequently pixelates and/or drops out.

Although I can still see Channel 31 via DISH, the signal issue is still an inconvenience for those times that DISH is out or I want the extra tuner for recording.

I contacted the station and indirectly (engineering wouldn't speak to me directly) asked: Are you aware of this signal issue? Is it an equipment thing? An upgrade in progress? What do you advise? I was (again indirectly) told that their signal was fine and the problem was on my end.

Is anyone else experiencing this issue? What might the cause be? Ideas?

Thanks.

Mr. Harris, KDVR is on the air. They've been making a big deal out of their recent increase to "full power" at 1 megawatt. Are any (or all) of these antennas amplified? What you describe sounds like amplifier and/or tuner overload, in which a too-strong signal causes the amplifier to distort the signal and/or overwhelms the tuner's ability to decode the digital signal correctly. Overload doesn't damage anything -- remove the source (usually an amp), and the tuner(s) will be fine. If reception of every other station is reliable, overload is likely to be causing this issue. If you think it is, try getting a cheap pair of un-amplified VHF/UHF rabbit ears and trying them at each tuner. Simply unplugging an amplified antenna's wall wart usually doesn't work because most built-in amps actually block signals if they're not getting power.

I've recently had reception issues with both KWGN and KDVR using an unamplified indoor antenna. Both of these stations came in great until the past couple of weeks. I thought that perhaps they had switched to backup antennas or something. Did they ever complete their upgrades? The last I heard, they were supposed to be done by the end of 2009, but I haven't heard anything about it recently.

Rick, I had KDVR at a stable average signal level of 96/100 during last night's Fiesta Bowl after writing that advice to Mr. Harris. KWGN averaged a steady 87/100. Both values are typical prime time readings here, 23 miles from those transmitters. My UHF antenna is an un-amplified, hand-built, modified Hoverman design. It's combined with a 5-element VHF-high antenna on a UVSJ combiner connected to a single receiver. The downlead cable is 55 feet long.

I did have trouble receiving KDVR at times last week, but this was entirely due to a (failed) experiment of mine involving a pre-amplifier. The issue went away immediately after the amplifier was removed from the coax wiring. (Yup, probably overload.)

I'm glad you're not having reception issues Don. I was just pointing out that Mr. Harris was not the only one having issues with KDVR. I am a few miles south of your location, so that could have something to do with our differences in reception. While you were receiving KDVR at 96/100, I was only getting about 85/70. Prior to the past few weeks, I used to get KDVR at 85/100.

That's why I was wondering if they were still in the process of doing their upgrades. If they were using a backup antenna for example, that may account for a slight change in their transmission pattern. Has anyone else down south noticed any changes in your reception of KWGN or KDVR?

I'm not down south (i.e., I'm 10 miles E-NE of LOM), but my reception on KWGN this morning had the lowest signal reading I've seen in over a month. Still quite within locking range, but about 12% lower than in December.

Interesting. KWGN and KDVR have been running PSA's for months now warning that people might lose their signal temporarily while they do their upgrades. Maybe they're finally doing it. It's hard to know what's going on since they aren't particularly forthcoming with information about their OTA status. I've certainly never been able to find anything relevant on their web site.

I reported previously that KRMA has been switching to HD every day from 9AM to 10AM for Sesame Street. Now they switched again at around 5:30PM (Nightly Business Report). Does anyone have any new information regarding what KRMA is doing regarding moving to HD programming? This back and forth on a program by program basis seems a little awkward at best.

Earlier tonight, on channel 23-4, programming was gone but there was a graphic with a Microsoft error message that read:
There was an error connecting to the Slingbox. Please try again.
I recollect a post about the time KCNC went HD with their news that stated they were using Xbox 360's as part of their setup.
Nice to know that in home technology is up to broadcasters' standards.

I recollect a post about the time KCNC went HD with their news that stated they were using Xbox 360's as part of their setup.
Nice to know that in home technology is up to broadcasters' standards.

More like "broadcasters' standards" have gone out the window.

We saw that the first time they started broadcasting VHS-quality video on TV.

Now we see Skype and other video we wouldn't have accepted on our computers… in 1998.

My comment about home technology/broadcaster's standards was intended as sarcasm. :D

All

I recently went to OTA with an indoor RCA 1500 antenna. I love the antenna but its a shame it has a molded RG6 in it rather than replaceable. Anyway I have this hooked up to an HDHomerun dual tuner box so I can watch OTA on my computer.

Due to this being a dual tuner I went out and purchased a 2 way splitter (2.4ghz). I am in Parker and am receiving (on channel 9) approx 80% signal quality and about 90% signal strength.

What is interesting is when I go from the antenna into tuner 1 on this box the signal quality actually drops but when I Have it configure as below it improves to the numbers listed above:

RCA 1500 Antenna-->Barrel connector-->6ft RG6-->2 way 2.4ghz splitter-->2 x RG6 cable runs to tuners.

This is all standard RG6 not quad shielded or anything. Should I be expecting more than this ? I suppose I was expecting at least 100% strength even if quality was a little less.

Any help/advice is greatly appreciated.

Thanks

WC

Are you having signal quality problems at 80-90% signal strength? If you don't have any picture break-ups, I wouldn't worry about it. My OTA signal strength is in the 70's and it always looks great.