Should I be expecting more than this ? I suppose I was expecting at least 100% strength even if quality was a little less.

"Signal strength" may be an interesting real-time metric, but it's nowhere near as important to reception as signal quality. That's the meter you want to maximize. It's entirely possible to have near-100-percent signal strength and near-zero signal quality in two circumstances:

• If the signal strength is mostly due to reflections and not the original signal. That's called multipath, and in this extreme example, it would totally preclude any reception because digital tuners generally don't handle multipath very well.

• If the signal is so strong that it overloads the tuner. Digital tuners don't usually tolerate overload well, either. My hunch is that you never want that strength meter to hit 100, because the resulting tuner overload would interrupt reception just as surely as multipath interference does.

It's also possible for a weak signal -- say, 30-percent strength -- to approach 100 on the quality meter, as long as it's stable thanks to fair weather, light wind, little pollution or humidity, etc.

Nobody ever said OTA digital reception wasn't counter-intuitive... :D

"Signal strength" may be an interesting real-time metric, but it's nowhere near as important to reception as signal quality. That's the meter you want to maximize. It's entirely possible to have near-100-percent signal strength and near-zero signal quality in two circumstances:

• If the signal strength is mostly due to reflections and not the original signal. That's called multipath, and in this extreme example, it would totally preclude any reception because digital tuners generally don't handle multipath very well.

Agreed.

• If the signal is so strong that it overloads the tuner. Digital tuners don't usually tolerate overload well, either. My hunch is that you never want that strength meter to hit 100, because the resulting tuner overload would interrupt reception just as surely as multipath interference does.

Newer versions of the HD Homerun (version 2) can handle signals that are significantly higher than the level that would register as 100. I was told that the HD Homerun would not overload until the level reached a signal strength that was 40 db higher than the level that would register as 100. I actually wish there was a way of getting raw signal strength information, because just about all of my signals come in with a signal strength of 100, so that meter is almost useless to me.

It's also possible for a weak signal -- say, 30-percent strength -- to approach 100 on the quality meter, as long as it's stable thanks to fair weather, light wind, little pollution or humidity, etc.

It's almost impossible to compare numbers between different tuners, since there doesn't appear to be any standard, plus as you already mentioned, it's the signal quality that counts, i.e. a non amplified signal strength of 30 and an amplified signal strength of 50 may yield the same signal quality. On an HD Homerun you will never be able to lock with a 30 percent signal strength. In fact the HD Homerun software will ignore a station that has a signal strength under 45. Since I have a high gain preamp (CM 7777), I set this value at 70, i.e. I know from experience that I won't be able to lock anything that has a signal strength under 70. With my setup background noise typically has a signal strength of around 55.


Nobody ever said OTA digital reception wasn't counter-intuitive... :D

Anyway, I agree with what you said in general, I just wanted to add some HD Homerun specific facts, since I have a lot of experience with this device (I own two of them, and I love the flexibility that a network tuner provides).

I'd love to see OTA tuners provide Eb/No output as well as error correction level output. A prime example of that capability is in the DSR-4800 satellite receiver. Both of those readouts were great for peaking the dish. Also great for letting me know when I needed to go out and sweep snow off the dish. :D When the Eb/No started dropping and the error correction level started rising, I knew I was having reception issues.

The TechnoTrend tuners also provide info based on Eb/No, but the TeVii tuners use signal level and signal quality readouts. I wish it had Eb/No and error correction level outputs instead.

I can understand why consumer OTA ATSC tuners do not have Eb/No and error correction level outputs, as the average TV viewer will not know what the heck they mean. Or even how to use the information to their advantage.

KDEN has finally fixed the tsid value in their PAT table, changing it from 1 to 491. Up until now they've been in this inconsistant state with their channel tsid set to 491 but the PAT tsid set to 1. A few posters on this forum have indicated trouble in decoding KDEN with some devices, even though they had a strong signal. It was theorized that this inconsistancy may have been the cause, so perhaps now the problem will have gone away for those people having trouble before.

Posted by sgtpaul:
Kdeo-ld tv23

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

KDEO-LD TV23 will move to UHF Channel 50 on or about Jan 9th at 1200 MST.
This is happening as KCDO-DT will sign on their full power Channel 23 on or about Jan 15th. KCDO-DT will keep its Channel3 branding and KDEO-LD will remain as YV23. A 5th channel on TV23 will appear soon. Programming will consist of the Western Heritage Channel that is being formed in Denver. TV23 will maintain its nostaligic programming on 23.2.
TV23 broadcasts from Mt. Morrison with ERP at 15KW, with a wide cardiod pattern.
I just checked and EWTN23 is still broadcasting on channel 23. Anyone have an update on this?

KDEN has finally fixed the tsid value in their PAT table, changing it from 1 to 491. Up until now they've been in this inconsistant state with their channel tsid set to 491 but the PAT tsid set to 1. A few posters on this forum have indicated trouble in decoding KDEN with some devices, even though they had a strong signal. It was theorized that this inconsistancy may have been the cause, so perhaps now the problem will have gone away for those people having trouble before.

Nice to know that they finally fixed it. I was one of those people who had trouble tuning the station on my TiVo HD. I'm currently a beta tester for a new version of the TiVo HD software in which they added a workaround for the problem with KDEN. Apparently, there were a few other stations around the country with the same problem. Anyway, since I've had the new TiVo software, I haven't had any trouble tuning KDEN. Hopefully, someone else can confirm that the change to the PAT table fixed their tuning issue.

KCDO-TV (DTV 23) plans power up their new full power transmitter next week on Thursday, Jan 21. Re-scan so you can catch some great shows like Magnum P.I. Dragnet, and Black Sheep Squadron.

KCDO-TV (DTV 23) plans power up their new full power transmitter next week on Thursday, Jan 21. Re-scan so you can catch some great shows like Magnum P.I. Dragnet, and Black Sheep Squadron.

thanks

I just checked and EWTN23 is still broadcasting on channel 23. Anyone have an update on this?

Your question was only partially answered earlier. KDEO-LD.com (http://kdeo-ld.com/) posted the following on their homepage:
KDEO-LD must perform a MAJOR transmitter adjustment between Jan 15th and Jan 20th. TV23 will leave the air possibly for several days until the adjustment is completed. YOU MUST RESCAN your Digital TV or converter box to receive our signals.
It seems to suggest they plan to start the switch to RF 50 during the weekend.

I've noticed for at least the last couple of nights that KRMA has been broadcasting the Newshour in HD. Anyone hear any info about this or know if they are doing any other slots in HD (besides Sesame Street)?

I reported previously that KRMA has been switching to HD every day from 9AM to 10AM for Sesame Street. Now they switched again at around 5:30PM (Nightly Business Report). Does anyone have any new information regarding what KRMA is doing regarding moving to HD programming? This back and forth on a program by program basis seems a little awkward at best.

I guess I spoke too soon. Their PAT tsid has been switched back to 1. I wonder if they know there is a problem, but don't know how to make the change permanent?

Is KRMA down? I have been getting a solid signal since they moved to the new antenna but I haven't been getting anything all day.

Looks like their back

KQCK added some psip finally. They still have their tsid set to 1, but they added a TVCT table and have set their display channel to 33.1. They also temporarily had 4 different subchannels, but that only lasted for an hour or so, and I wasn't around to check what they were broadcasting (if anything) on those subchannels. But I expect this is a step towards providing more programming.

Anyway, if anyone cares, you may need to rescan, although most devices will handle it automatically, since the RF channel hasn't changed.

Interesting, can I get some new data on KQCK?

Also, can anyone see if KBDI is still airing Documentary Channel on 12-2? I hear that the only other affiliate has dropped it since the network is going commercial. I expect KBDI to follow but their website doesn't say anything.

- Trip

Also, can anyone see if KBDI is still airing Documentary Channel on 12-2?
It was still there as of yesterday evening, Trip.

Have any of the old towers been completely removed yet? I know they mentioned they had them scheduled for demolition a while back.

Not yet Tim. All the old towers are still there. They said they were bringing in a big crane to disassemble the smaller towers. Then, remove KCNC's big tower last. That has to come down the old fashion way with a Jib pole and pulley's.

I noticed KDEO is still on the air on RF 23. Wonder if that's going to delay KCDO signing on?

When did you notice this? As far as I know, KDEO went off the air on RF 23 around 9pm last night. I checked shortly after midnight, and they were back up on RF 50. This morning they are still up on RF 50. Seems like it could not have gone smoother.

I noticed KDEO is still on the air on RF 23. Wonder if that's going to delay KCDO signing on?

KDEO signed off on RF23 last night at around 8PM and came back on RF50 this morning. They still plan on keeping their display channel as 23 as far as I know (I believe that KCDO is using 3 as their display channel).

Did you do a rescan, or did your tuner automatically figure this out?

EDIT: I will note that their signal strength went down about 20 db for me here in Fort Collins, although I can still get a solid lock on them. I'm not sure if they are transmitting with less power. My guess is that this is more likely due to RF50 not propagating as well as RF23, and/or my antenna being less sensitive at the high end of the UHF range.

I think I checked on KDEO around 8:00 PM, so I must have just missed the signoff. I'm receiving them on RF 50 now but the signal strength is way down. I can barely lock it and I get lots of breakups.

I tried re-scanning last night and still don't see KDEO. I lost them for some reason in the fall, and was hoping to get them once they moved to RF 50. Hopefully they are still not at full power since others seem to have trouble locking and/or see their signal strenght drop.

I tried re-scanning last night and still don't see KDEO. I lost them for some reason in the fall, and was hoping to get them once they moved to RF 50. Hopefully they are still not at full power since others seem to have trouble locking and/or see their signal strenght drop.

I was getting KDEO reliably until the switch to UHF 50. Re-scans yesterday could not detect the station at its new frequency.

We're getting KDEO on RF 50 here, and while it was better last night, it's still down 10 points out of 100 on the signal level meter from where it used to be on RF 23.

Whenever a station changes its RF assignment, I have to do a blind scan as my HDTV's "Add Channels" function isn't robust enough to wipe out defunct channel mappings. Perhaps a blind scan will do the trick. If it doesn't work, a double re-scan (http://www.dtv.gov/rescan.html) might.

On a related note, has anyone been able to catch a sniff of KCDO Virtual 3.1 / RF 23 yet? Today is the day, according to this poster (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=17926138#post17926138). I'm not seeing it yet here. It'll be nice to get RTV back on OTA. It's been a long time :(

On a related note, has anyone been able to catch a sniff of KCDO Virtual 3.1 / RF 23 yet? Today is the day, according to this poster (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=17926138#post17926138). I'm not seeing it yet here. It'll be nice to get RTV back on OTA. It's been a long time :(

Not yet. I'm fairly sure I will be able to get it, but even if I can't, I'm sure I will at least see some increased signal level in RF23. That hasn't happened yet.

Hi guys, I haven't been in this thread for a long time. Is there any updated listing pages that show the current digital frequency (channel) bands for the station as they exist today? I am looking to see the frequencies that everyone is at these days and find a whole lot of conflicting information. I know Ernie used to have a page but I can't find it anymore. Appreciate the help.

Hi guys, I haven't been in this thread for a long time. Is there any updated listing pages that show the current digital frequency (channel) bands for the station as they exist today? I am looking to see the frequencies that everyone is at these days and find a whole lot of conflicting information. I know Ernie used to have a page but I can't find it anymore. Appreciate the help.

http://www.rabbitears.info/market.php?mktid=25

The physical channel numbers are under the "Digital Channel" column.

DISCLAIMER: I run RabbitEars.Info.

- Trip

Thanks, that looks like what I wanted.

http://www.rabbitears.info/market.php?mktid=25

The physical channel numbers are under the "Digital Channel" column.

DISCLAIMER: I run RabbitEars.Info.

- Trip

Thanks Trip.

Greetings, after a long absence, from Northern Colorado.

I was getting at least passable reception from KRMA-DT for months, but now it appears to have gone into the dumpster for me here north of Fort Collins. From my bizarre location, sometimes RF18 (from Mount Morrison) is stronger, but at other times, RF47 (the translator on Horsetooth Mountain southwest of Fort Collins) is better. Right now, neither of them is providing reliable reception.

Is anyone else having trouble?


Jim McCauley

Is anyone else having trouble?

Welcome back, Jim! Haven't observed any serious deviation from normal signal-quality levels for KRMA (RF 18) here.

KCDO-TV (DTV 23) plans power up their new full power transmitter next week on Thursday, Jan 21. Re-scan so you can catch some great shows like Magnum P.I. Dragnet, and Black Sheep Squadron.

Is this operational? From up here in Fort Collins, I have not been able to detect
anything on RF 23.

I can tell RF 50 has signal, but it's too weak to lock now, so I guess it's "bye" to EWTN.

Rob T

No signal for KCDO-Channel 3 (RF-23) or for KDEO-Channel 23 (RF-50) in Cheyenne either. KRMA locks in solid at 80-85% consistently. KMGH and KUSA lock in about 1/2 of the time and just barely.....my Winegard YA-1713 antenna just doesn't do the job since both KUSA and KMGH broadcast at extremely low power levels. All other Denver stations lock in very well up here.

KCDO started transmitting at about 11:45 AM. I'm not at home, so I can't check it out, but the PSIP looks good.

KCDO started transmitting at about 11:45 AM. I'm not at home, so I can't check it out, but the PSIP looks good.

When you get the chance, can you send me TSReader data on it and KQCK?

- Trip

When you get the chance, can you send me TSReader data on it and KQCK?


Sure. I was waiting to see if KQCK came up with a few new subchannels, since it looked like that was the plan. But now I'm thinking that was just an error in their initial PSIP setup which they corrected. I'll do it tonight.

Still no sign of KCDO here. Perhaps they're not at full power yet.

Did anyone notice the programming change on KQCK/KQDK? They are no longer broadcasting @SportsTV (http://atsportstv.com). They are now showing a new Spanish network called Vasallovision (http://www.vasallovision.tv). Kind of disappointing since they used to broadcast English programming. Oh well, I guess it's no big loss since they haven't shown anything of interest on these two stations for ages.

Still no sign of KCDO here. Perhaps they're not at full power yet.

Did anyone notice the programming change on KQCK/KQDK? They are no longer broadcasting @SportsTV (http://atsportstv.com). They are now showing a new Spanish network called Vasallovision (http://www.vasallovision.tv). Kind of disappointing since they used to broadcast English programming. Oh well, I guess it's no big loss since they haven't shown anything of interest on these two stations for ages.

Hmm, I did notice a spanish program last night, but I thought it was just a paid advertisement on @SportsTV. I noticed the same advertisement being broadcast in english on another channel.

Given their lack of HD and their limited audience, it seems that it would make sense for them to run multiple subchannels if they insist on broadcasting obscure networks. I would be surprised if they don't add a subchannel or two in the future.

I am picking up KCDO from about 80 miles out. I am showing about 80% on a CM 7000 receiver. I had to flip the antenna almost 50 degrees to the east to get them. I am running an XG91 and a Winegard YA-1713 combined through a CM 7777 preamp. I don't want to add a rotor so I was thinking of adding a Winegard HD-8800 pointing east since it looks like it is better than the XG91 at the lower UHF band. Could I combine the XG91 and the 8800 into the UHF input on the 7777 without causing interference?

I am near longmont with no sign of ch 3 showing up last night. My antenna is oriented south- I thought KCDO was farily high power and that I'd have no problem getting it.... I guess I was wrong...

Could I combine the XG91 and the 8800 into the UHF input on the 7777 without causing interference?
The only sure way to know is to try it and find out. Interference won't likely be a big issue in that signal environment. However, the 3-4 dB insertion loss from putting the combiner ahead of the pre-amp might be.

So what are you guys using to do the combining of two antenna's? First time I have considered doing this. I guess I'd like to combine two UHF antennas with different orientations.

The only sure way to know is to try it and find out. Interference won't likely be a big issue in that signal environment. However, the 3-4 dB insertion loss from putting the combiner ahead of the pre-amp might be.

Bingo. I tried it with a home made 4 bay UHF antenna that I did some testing with last year. I ran it through a 2 way splitter in reverse. The signal drops down to about 20% percent, not enough for a clean lock. If I had a high enough signal to start with I think it would work, but I may have to go to some kind of an A/B switch or I may have to bite the bullet and install a rotor.

So what are you guys using to do the combining of two antenna's?
A good splitter used in reverse. A splitter chews up somewhat more than half the available signal strength, though. As Jayhawker2's experience shows, the resulting "insertion loss" can mean the difference between locking on the station you want and not getting it at all.

For an antenna combiner test, see HERE (http://www.atechfabrication.com/tests/06-16-02_antenna_combiner_test.htm). Warren also makes a couple of them, HERE. (http://www.warrenelectronics.com/Antennas/joiners.htm) Hope this is helpful.

Bingo. I tried it with a home made 4 bay UHF antenna that I did some testing with last year. I ran it through a 2 way splitter in reverse. The signal drops down to about 20% percent, not enough for a clean lock. If I had a high enough signal to start with I think it would work, but I may have to go to some kind of an A/B switch or I may have to bite the bullet and install a rotor.

Insertion loss is one contributor to a signal drop, but the other problem with combining two antenna's is that the signals for a particular channel may be out of phase with each other, causing some degree of cancellation, depending on the phase between the two signals. This can change from channel to channel (and you can also get a signal boost when the two signals are in phase.

There's no way of easily predicting what will happen for each channel, so you just have to try it. Note, that if the primary problem is insertion loss, you could fix that by using a separate preamp for each antenna and combining them after the preamp. That's certainly a more expensive solution, but it is more convenient and less expensive than a rotor, assuming that it works. Note that you need separate power to each preamp, so you either need to combine after the power inserter, or you need to get more creative with power passing splitters.

Note also, that if you are doing this only to receive one particular channel you can use a Channel Master JoinTenna to prevent the phase cancellation problem (as long as you have a free channel on each side of the channel you are trying to receive).

I had considered the second preamp solution. At some point I have to look at what it's worth for one channel. While I do like some of the shows on Retro Television, pretty much all of them are available on Hulu for free. Not to mention I was freezing my behind off out there on the roof. I think I may hold off until warmer weather and give it another shot.

I am picking up KCDO from about 80 miles out. I am showing about 80% on a CM 7000 receiver. I had to flip the antenna almost 50 degrees to the east to get them. I am running an XG91 and a Winegard YA-1713 combined through a CM 7777 preamp. I don't want to add a rotor so I was thinking of adding a Winegard HD-8800 pointing east since it looks like it is better than the XG91 at the lower UHF band. Could I combine the XG91 and the 8800 into the UHF input on the 7777 without causing interference?

I have both the XG91 and 8800 and used both years ago, with the CM7777 pre-amp, in an attempt to get KMGH's "coat hanger" DTV broadcasts (real channel 17) from their downtown station building. The 8800 never picked them up, but the XG91 did. I know the HDTV Primer charts show the 8800 as better (more gain) than the XG91 on the lower UHF channels, but my real world experience is that the XG91 can receive weak channels, high and low, that the 8800 won't necessarily receive.

Regarding combining two UHF antennas, I've done it. Sometimes successfully, and sometimes not. I usually use a Rat Shack hybrid splitter combiner to do the combining. The most common problem is that a strong channel signal will be picked up by both antennas and the combined signal will be of poorer quality than what you saw with the one antenna. This is usually because the signals are received at the two antennas out of phase with each other and the DTV tuner has trouble sorting out the mixed signals and locking on one. If a previously strong channel just disappears on your tuner after combining antennas or the signal is drastically reduced, try reversing the antenna balun connections on one of the antennas. That will change the phase of that antenna 180 degrees and can help the signals to combine rather than cancel each other out.

If the balun flip doesn't help much, then you are stuck. The bottom line is that combined UHF antenna signals are almost never going to be as strong as the signal you get from just one of those antennas.

If you are just trying to receive one UHF station on the second antenna, you can try using a Channel Master Join-Tenna filter set for the channel number you want to receive. They aren't cheap and my experience has been that the insertion loss from them pretty much wipes out a weak signal (they need to be inserted before any amplification takes place or they are ineffective at isolating the desired channel).

Bingo. I tried it with a home made 4 bay UHF antenna that I did some testing with last year. I ran it through a 2 way splitter in reverse. The signal drops down to about 20% percent, not enough for a clean lock. If I had a high enough signal to start with I think it would work, but I may have to go to some kind of an A/B switch or I may have to bite the bullet and install a rotor.

I left my XG91 in place in the attic pointed at KWHD in Castle Rock, which was just a few degrees West of my azimuth to the Republic Plaza broadcast towers no longer in use. My UHF/VHF combo antenna, which is pointed a few degrees south of a straight on LOM azimuth to get a better KRMA signal, gets KWHD with a very weak signal on "good" days.

So, if I really want to watch KWHD, I need the signal from the XG91. I gave up on combining the two because the end results were mediocre and I simply made two coax runs from the attic to the basement and back up the wall behind my entertainment center to a Rat Shack A-B switch. Works great. Too bad there isn't anything else on my southern azimuth to pick up (besides analog channel 39), but the XG91 does pull in decent signals for the LOM UHF stations even though they are at about 90 degrees from its pointing azimuth. The LOM signals are so strong that the XG91's null at 90 degrees doesn't have much affect.

My personal, current, "one channel in the wrong direction" problem is virtual channel 59, which is about 180 degrees from my LOM azimuth. On a "good day", my best DTV tuner (the one in my Sony Z5100) will tune a weak signal for 59 from the "backside" reception of my UHF/VHF combo antenna with HDP-269 pre-amp, so I typically don't receive channel 59. I'm not about to tear up the walls again to install a third coax and my initial combining experiments in the attic yielded a big drop off in UHF signal quality for my LOM UHF signals when I tried to add the channel 59 (real channel 43) using a second UHF antenna.

Hey Don_M and/or CEB II! You didn't mention whether you've had any luck receiving KCDO yet. We've heard from a couple people up north. Just curious whether anyone in the Denver metro area is receiving KCDO.

There's no way of easily predicting what will happen for each channel, so you just have to try it. Note, that if the primary problem is insertion loss, you could fix that by using a separate preamp for each antenna and combining them after the preamp. That's certainly a more expensive solution, but it is more convenient and less expensive than a rotor, assuming that it works.

Note that you need separate power to each preamp, so you either need to combine after the power inserter, or you need to get more creative with power passing splitters.

The Channel Master power supplies for the CM-7777 pre-amps can power two pre-amps without a problem. CM might not recommend it, but it will work. The problem with amplifying both antennas separately is that, most likely, the out-of-phase problem will just be amplified as well and the combined signal may be even worse. It is definitely a trial and error development, which is fine if one has the money, time, and patience.

You didn't mention whether you've had any luck receiving KCDO yet... Just curious whether anyone in the Denver metro area is receiving KCDO.
Nope. I've got two UHF antennas combined on a splitter now -- a hand-built Hoverman variant pointed at LOM, and a Winegard HD-9032 pointed at KPXC 59.x/RF43, which is 66 degrees away from KCDO. Splitter goes to a UVSJ to combine with a VHF highbander. Nothing is amplified. All of this gear is in the attic. With a TVFool noise margin that's pretty far under water here (-6.4 dB), KCDO would be tough to get reliably, even if the antennas were outside.

Hey Don_M and/or CEB II! You didn't mention whether you've had any luck receiving KCDO yet. We've heard from a couple people up north. Just curious whether anyone in the Denver metro area is receiving KCDO.
I am not WAY up North, but my experience is similar to Don_M.

I have 2 attic mounted antennas combined into a CM7777 pre-amp using an ordinary splitter on the UHF/VHF combo input of the pre-amp. The other input of the pre-amp is switched off. One antenna is a suburban VHF/UHF combo pointed almost due South and the other is a Radio Shack U-75R aimed about 30 degrees north of due East to get KPXC (59.X) which comes in very strong. KCDO is almost due East for me, and I can't get a sniff of it.
The combo gets Lookout Mountain, Mount Morrison, and KWHD (Parker, I think) very well. It also nornally get KBDI quite well, even though the angle is off a bit, and I do have some shadowing (I was told Mt Tom is the problem).
I was getting KDEO when it was using UHF 23 but lost it when they switched to UHF 50.

No sniff of KCDO here just south of Rocky Mountain airport in Broomfield using a CM4228 antenna. I used to get KDEO but not since the move.

The Channel Master power supplies for the CM-7777 pre-amps can power two pre-amps without a problem. CM might not recommend it, but it will work.

Thanks, that's good to know. Is there some documentation somewhere that says how much power the preamp takes, or did you just measure it to determine that? I'm interested since I am currently using two CM-7777's, powered by separate power supplies. I didn't even think to check to see if I could have used only one supply.

Is [KCDO] operational? From up here in Fort Collins, I have not been able to detect anything on RF 23.

I have it now, just at the edge of reliability. I've still got my CM-7778 in my family
room instead of on the roof, so I could get a bit more margin whenever it warms up
enough for me to get on the roof :-)

Rob T

I'm in Broomfield near the intersection of 136th and Main. I can get KDEO reliabily with about 48% strength reported by my recievers. I observed this strength today and the same six days ago. Past experience has shown that I need about 44% for a reliable signal so I'm right on the edge. I never tried to receive KDEO when they were on RF23 so I can't really offer a comparison.

My setup is a CM 4220 (the old one, not the new "HD" model) in the attic with the pointing peaked on KRMA. There's a preamp to help compensate for the loss of a relatively long cable run and some signal splitting.

KCDO is only showing up at about 14% for me and my recievers aren't able to decode anything. That's not very surprising since KCDO is off the side of my antenna.

With a TVFool noise margin that's pretty far under water here (-6.4 dB), KCDO would be tough to get reliably, even if the antennas were outside.

Yeah, I hadn't thought to check TVFool. My report shows KCDO at -79.3 dBm 2Edge, so I don't think I'll be picking it up anytime soon.

The last construction permit that I saw for KCDO on the FCC web site had them at 1000 kw with a service contour map reaching all the way down to Castle Rock. Guess that hasn't been approved yet. I'm surprised that it doesn't show up on TVFool when selecting pending applications.

Yeah, I hadn't thought to check TVFool. My report shows KCDO at -79.3 dBm 2Edge, so I don't think I'll be picking it up anytime soon.

The last construction permit that I saw for KCDO on the FCC web site had them at 1000 kw with a service contour map reaching all the way down to Castle Rock. Guess that hasn't been approved yet. I'm surprised that it doesn't show up on TVFool when selecting pending applications.

No, TV Fool is up to date, and shows the 1000 Kw ERP for KCDO. I believe that is what they have running now. The problem is that you have 2 edge reception, not to mention that you may not have pointed your antenna in that direction. Their service contour map is not detailed enough to show dropouts due to 1 edge and 2 edge reception. It is mostly reflecting LOS reception.

I have 1 edge reception, with a noise margin of 20.7 db and a power level of -70.2 dBm according to TV Fool. I'm not having any trouble locking it. But I think KCDO is a little too optimistic if they think a lot of people are going to turn their antenna's away from Lookout Mountain, which is what will probably be required for most people to receive them.

On another note, I was a little surprised to see KCDO simulcasting KGWN's Northern Colorado 5 news report.

Their service contour map is not detailed enough to show dropouts due to 1 edge and 2 edge reception. It is mostly reflecting LOS reception.


Service contour maps do not take any terrain into account since they are not intended to be predictors of reception.

Their intended purpose is to show how far out the signal should go (to a specified field strength) in free space to establish a boundary for protection from other stations that might interfere with the signal.

No, TV Fool is up to date, and shows the 1000 Kw ERP for KCDO. I believe that is what they have running now

Oops! My bad. I didn't realize that you could get the transmitter details from TVFool until you mentioned it. I was hoping that KCDO just wasn't up to full power yet. Since I'm picking up most of the low power stations in town, I assumed that I wouldn't have any trouble with another full power station. Oh well, I hope other people have better luck than me.

TV23 WILL BE OPERATING AT REDUCED POWER UNTIL NEEDED EQUIPMENT IS RECEIVED AND INSTALLED
This is from KDEO web site anybody know what they are waiting for and when they will be at full power?

Another KCDO report: I live in Erie and have not been able to get KCDO at all with a UHF antenna (not a great one) aimed due east from a 2nd story window.

I would like to get a higher gain UHF antenna to try again from the attic but then I'll have this issue about what do do wrt LOM stations / combining etc.

TV23 WILL BE OPERATING AT REDUCED POWER UNTIL NEEDED EQUIPMENT IS RECEIVED AND INSTALLED
This is from KDEO web site anybody know what they are waiting for and when they will be at full power?

A flange

Service contour maps do not take any terrain into account since they are not intended to be predictors of reception.

Their intended purpose is to show how far out the signal should go (to a specified field strength) in free space to establish a boundary for protection from other stations that might interfere with the signal.

OK, I was getting the service contour map mixed up with a coverage map, which does take terrain into account.

However, I guess I always thought there was some amount of terrain taken into account on the service contour, otherwise, why doesn't the service contour directly reflect the antenna radiation pattern? What else is taken into account besides the power output and the antenna radiation pattern?

For those who are interested in seeing why their reception of KCDO (or lack of reception) is so bad, this link (http://www.rabbitears.info/contour.php?appid=1270913&map=Y) shows the Longley Rice coverage map overlaid on the service contour map (courtesy of Trip). According to that map, most of the Denver area has either no coverage, or is in the red or orange range. My home in Fort Collins is in the yellow range.

I've got a red square right by my house, the surrounding area (the remainder of my neighborhood) is not colored at all...

a flange


:d lmao :d

On another note, I was a little surprised to see KCDO simulcasting KGWN's Northern Colorado 5 news report.

Me, too - I finally did a scan from my HR10-250, and was pleased to see Directv guide data for KCDO. It's actually coming in steadily enough now that I'm going to try to record NoCo5 News from KCDO to see if it's more reliable than KGWN, which seems to go partly away on me at least once a week.

Also, perusing the guide I get from DirecTV, I'm surprised how little real programming KCDO shows. It's almost all "Paid Programming". Doesn't a broadcast model rely on at least a reasonable number of shows that aren't advertising to attract at least a few viewers? :-)

Rob T

For those who are interested in seeing why their reception of KCDO (or lack of reception) is so bad, this link (http://www.rabbitears.info/contour.php?appid=1270913&map=Y) shows the Longley Rice coverage map overlaid on the service contour map (courtesy of Trip). According to that map, most of the Denver area has either no coverage, or is in the red or orange range.

Nice map! But I'm a little confused. I thought the whole point of them bumping up to 1000 kw was so that they could provide service to the Denver area. If Denver is still in the red, then what was the point of the power increase?

Nice map! But I'm a little confused. I thought the whole point of them bumping up to 1000 kw was so that they could provide service to the Denver area. If Denver is still in the red, then what was the point of the power increase?

The blue circle covers much of the Denver market population centers. KCDO can now demand must-carry on cable, I think.

- Trip

FWIW, KCDO comes in nicely for me in Louisville with my attic-mount antenna pointed at the antenna farm on Lookout.

Note off-axis is not this antenna's strong point, as the same antenna could not receive KRMA-DT from Mt. Morrison until they moved their antenna up the tower and increased power.

KRMA signal gone as of 6:20pm or so. Wife is losing patience with these outages during newshour. This time, uncharacteristically, the Comcast signal is also out.

It looks like KWHD is being sold to Liberman Broadcasting, owner of Spanish-language Estrella TV.

- Trip

KRMA signal gone as of 6:20pm or so.

Yeah, I had Washington Week set to record, but it only recorded the last half of the program, so the signal must have come back around 7:15pm. It does get frustrating sometimes, but at least it's free.

It looks like KWHD is being sold to Liberman Broadcasting, owner of Spanish-language Estrella TV.

Just what we need, another Spanish station. :rolleyes: Maybe that explains why they haven't done anything with the new subchannel that they added a few weeks ago. They are still simulcasting the same programming on both subchannels. Seems like kind of a waste of resources.

I suspect that eventually most free channels will end up being Spanish as Spanish speakers continue to tune in en masse to the Spanish broadcasters while English-speaking listeners and viewers will be spread thinly among the various more specialized cable and satellite services, thus making it financially inviable to broadcast in English.

I agree. That coupled with the recent talk of the major networks wanting to move to cable/satellite will probably end up driving many viewers back to pay TV in a few years.

My scanning software noticed that KPXC dropped the Worship subchannel this morning (at midnight). I checked online, and this was planned. ION didn't renew their contract with the network.

Perhaps they are going to use this bandwidth to either improve their HD subchannel or to add Mobile DTV service (ION at one time claimed that they were going to be broadcasting Mobile DTV in all of their markets).

I recently purchased a Winegard SS-3000 to help improve reception in our capitol hill location. We are unfortunately on the first floor of a condo building so we can't get much by way of elevation for line-of-sight. And there is a giant tree and apartment building across the street that is blocking direct line of sight.

The new antenna is working pretty well, but I'm noticing there are still some issues with the VHF-Hi channels, namely KMGH (RF 7). From reading some of the other threads, it seems that VHF is the weak point of this antenna.

Does anyone have any recommendations on how I might be able to improve our reception? I've tried putting the antenna higher in our west-facing window, but with limited improvement. I may stop by Radioshack on the way home and pick up a basic set of bunny ears to see if that at least allows us to get better VHF reception for when it matters (tomorrow's LOST season premier)

Also, if there is anyone else in the downtown/capitol hill area who can offer tips on getting the best reception (placement, antenna make/model, etc) I'm all ears.

Thanks!

edit: I should mention that I was previously using a cheapo monoprice indoor model that seemed to work a bit better on the VHF band but was altogether unreliable.

If you haven't already tried it, I would recommend the Radio Shack Budget TV Antenna (http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103077). I haven't used it personally, but I've heard some great things about it. It's supposed to be better on UHF because the loop is slightly larger than most others. For VHF, it should be as good as any other set of rabbit ears. Due to your close proximity to the towers, I would think the SS-3000 would be overkill. Let us know how things work out.

When you use the rabbit ears, keep in mind that they don't have to be extended all the way out. It's counterintuitive, but extending the rabbit ears all the way can actually make your reception worse. You should get the best reception with them only extended about 16 to 18 inches and positioned in a V shape.

If you haven't already tried it, I would recommend the Radio Shack Budget TV Antenna (http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103077). I haven't used it personally, but I've heard some great things about it. It's supposed to be better on UHF because the loop is slightly larger than most others. For VHF, it should be as good as any other set of rabbit ears. Due to your close proximity to the towers, I would think the SS-3000 would be overkill. Let us know how things work out.

When you use the rabbit ears, keep in mind that they don't have to be extended all the way out. It's counterintuitive, but extending the rabbit ears all the way can actually make your reception worse. You should get the best reception with them only extended about 16 to 18 inches and positioned in a V shape.

Thanks Rick. I stopped by the Radio Shack on the 16th street mall on the way home, but their selection was slim pickings. They only had the higher-end powered combo antenna, not the low-end one you've linked. I may try another store tomorrow.

For tonight, I've put the winegard back on it's side (so it stands vertical) and that at least helped out with the reception of FOX for House (no drops). I've been recording some of the crap ABC aired tonight and it seems pretty solid but not 100%.

The thing that kills me about this is that I live literally 6 blocks from the KMGH station

edit: I went for the winegard specifically because of my low elevation/reflection issues I was having with the cheaper antenna.

I may try another store tomorrow.

Use the web link I posted before, and click on the "Find It In Store" button. That should be easier than just going to random stores.

The thing that kills me about this is that I live literally 6 blocks from the KMGH station

Yeah, but their transmitter is actually on Lookout Mountain. Still, you should be able to get a decent signal since you are so close. As you mentioned, your biggest problem will be multipath interference due to all the obstacles nearby. Patience and persistence will definitely be your allies. Good luck!

Yeah, I checked online yesterday before going to the store but the website lied to me. Oh well, I suppose I can call ahead to some of the other stores. The one on the 16th Street mall is tiny so I'm not terribly surprised that their inventory isn't as good

I'm located in Cheyenne and use the CM 7777 preamp combined with an Winegard YA1713 (for hi VHF Ch 7-13) and Antennas Direct 91XG (for UHF) mounted on my roof and pick up all the major Denver channels really well (except for KUSA and KMGH which lock in about 1/2 the time). Are any of you familiar with the new Antennas Direct C5 as a possible replacement for the Winegard YA1713 for long range hi VHF reception?

Are any of you familiar with the new Antennas Direct C5 as a possible replacement for the Winegard YA1713 for long range hi VHF reception?

The Cleasrtream C5 isn't designed to perform as well as the YA-1713 does in the deep fringe, and it costs twice as much to boot. Raising an antenna farther above the ground is frequently just as effective as increasing antenna gain. You'd probably be better off with the added height, even if it means putting the 1713 above the 91-XG.

Thank you for the info regarding the Clearstream C5 not performing as well in deep fringe locations. I already have the YA-1713 as high as possible so KMGH and KUSA reception will stay as is. Any news about either station boosting their power output in the future?

Any news about either station boosting their power output in the future?
Both stations received permission to increase power from the FCC last year. In both cases, the additional power was intended to fill in weak spots within their service areas, not to extend the service areas themselves. Neither station has filed subsequent requests for additional power with the FCC.

The Cleasrtream C5 isn't designed to perform as well as the YA-1713 does in the deep fringe, and it costs twice as much to boot. Raising an antenna farther above the ground is frequently just as effective as increasing antenna gain. You'd probably be better off with the added height, even if it means putting the 1713 above the 91-XG.

As much as I like the C5 for what it is, I have to agree with Don that it is not likely to be a suitable or logical substitute for a 10-element Yagi that is not adequate.

From a gain perspective, it should be compared to a 5-element Yagi.

As far as its cost, most people who criticize it for that probably haven't examined one to see how it is constructed (mitered and welded heavy gauge aluminum and a power-coat finish, for example) and usually don't consider that it has a lifetime warranty, not 90 days like pretty much everyone else in the industry.

KUSA is supposed to be sponsoring a visit by AD in the next couple of days to the Denver area. If you're curious about the C5, you can see it in person.

I'm located in Cheyenne and use the CM 7777 preamp combined with an Winegard YA1713 (for hi VHF Ch 7-13) and Antennas Direct 91XG (for UHF) mounted on my roof and pick up all the major Denver channels really well (except for KUSA and KMGH which lock in about 1/2 the time). Are any of you familiar with the new Antennas Direct C5 as a possible replacement for the Winegard YA1713 for long range hi VHF reception?

I agree with others about the C5. As far as improving reception, how strong is your antenna mast? You might consider the Winegard HD7698P. It's a monster antenna designed for both high VHF and UHF. You don't need the UHF, but the VHF part is better than the 1713. Real life is always different than the specs, but the specs say you'll get a 2.6db improvement on Channel 9. That is significant since you say you lock about 1/2 the time, which means you are right on the digital cliff.

Note also, since you are on the "digital cliff", anything else that makes even a small improvement can make a big difference. Do you have your CM7777 mounted right at the antenna? If not, how much distance between the antenna and the preamp?

Note also that although the 91XG is a great UHF antenna, the 7698P might do just as well, or at least close enough (assuming you are not on the digital cliff for UHF stations you care about). That might allow you to remove the 91XG, giving you a cleaner installation.

The CM 7777 is mounted about 3-4 feet from the antenna. I’ll check my cabling, splitters, etc since I’m so close to locking in KUSA and KMGH. When it warms up outside I'll look into the Winegard HD7698P as a replacement for both antennas I currently have. UHF signal strength is not an issue since it is in the 60-95% range depending on the station. My only concern with the Winegard HD7698P is wind load (even though both antennas are mounted off a brick chimney) because you know what the wind can be like up here in Cheyenne. Appreciate your help!

The CM 7777 is mounted about 3-4 feet from the antenna. I’ll check my cabling, splitters, etc since I’m so close to locking in KUSA and KMGH. When it warms up outside I'll look into the Winegard HD7698P as a replacement for both antennas I currently have. UHF signal strength is not an issue since it is in the 60-95% range depending on the station. My only concern with the Winegard HD7698P is wind load (even though both antennas are mounted off a brick chimney) because you know what the wind can be like up here in Cheyenne. Appreciate your help!

3-4 feet shouldn't be an issue. Splitters shouldn't be that much of an issue since I assume they are after your preamp (unless you've got a lot of them). The connections that are most important are between the antenna and the preamp. If you had any serious problems after the preamp then you would probably have problems with your UHF reception also. Make sure the balun is still in good shape.

One advantage of an antenna that doesn't support VHF-LO (like the HD7698P) is that they don't have the long VHF-LO elements, which helps reduce the wind loading. But I can certainly understand your concerns regarding wind in Cheyenne.

I turned my antenna for the first time in a while this afternoon to see if I could get KCDO. I guess I'm on the digital cliff. I was getting just enough signal for a lock, but it would drop out/pixelate every few minutes.

I was getting a strong signal from KGWN, so if a little atmospherics were in play, I may not receive KCDO under "normal" conditions. I also noticed KQCK was a Spanish language station now. Just what we needed.

Something totally off topic but relating to the Denver area.

I'm wondering if any of you are or know any Qwest employees that would have a "say" in DSL coverage or expansion. Or if there was someone that could put me in contact with said employee. If anyone has any info that can help me, I'd really appreciate it. Just pm me! Thanks guys!

I turned my antenna for the first time in a while this afternoon to see if I could get KCDO. I guess I'm on the digital cliff.

I notice a surprisingly large variation in KCDO's signal up here in Fort Collins. I've seen it in the mid-eighties % on my Dish receiver in the morning and below 60% and just on the edge of lockable in the afternoon. That's unusual, and may mean they're tinkering with the transmitter.

Rob T

I hope you're right about KCDO - tinkering with their transmitter. From the FCC database, I'm just on the edge, but in, KCDO's service contour, while almost all of Ft. Collins is outside of the service contour. I also noticed that they have construction permits for translators in Kimball and Sidney NE. I wonder if the old analog channel 3 signal reached those NE locations before they moved their digital transmitter closer to Denver.

My KCDO signal strength increased later Saturday night about 5 points on my Dish receiver to 62-63 and I had a solid lock. Sunday afternoon it dropped below 58 and I lost the lock. I also lost my lock of KGWN at the same time. Probably due to the bad weather.

I can watch the station on Dish but I was hoping I could receive it OTA for my 4 TV's that are OTA only.

It would be great if they would add a translator for Denver since most of the metro area is in the red, but I'm not holding my breath. Kind of sad that they decided to put their high power transmitter in the middle of nowhere. I guess it makes sense if their goal was to be carried on cable and satellite, but it certainly sucks for us OTA only viewers.

The station is licensed to Sterling and must provide a minimum amount of signal to Sterling in order to be approved. They're as close as they can be.

- Trip

So I'm sort of new to this. I get KMGH channel 7 during day light hours, but it mysteriously gets very crappy when the sun goes down and we want to watch Lost... :$ Also channel 9 usually goes out around the same time.

Here's my setup:
Philips MANT940 UHF (Or one that looks just like it)
In Thornton at about 100th Ave.
Antenna is about 10' off the ground, attached to the outside of the North face of my house.
Signal is received by two TVs and a PC tuner. The PC tuner is behind one splitter. The other two TVs are on a 2nd splitter. All exhibit the same drop in signal at nighttime.

So, I realize channels 7 and 9 are VHF and my UHF antenna is not the best for picking them up. I looked up tvfool.com and it indicated that the signal is stronger to the West by Southwest direction. HOWEVER, I get the signal rock solid during the day. Is there any reason that the signal would drop off at night? Does the cold air change the signal propogation? Is my antenna getting too cold to receive a good signal? Is KMGH intentionally making it hard for me to enjoy Lost?

I tried moving the antenna to the WSW corner of the house today, but I must have crossed a cable or something because I couldn't get any signal that way. Do I need to run out and get one of those cheapy Radio Shack deals?

Is there any reason that the signal would drop off at night?

Yes: That antenna simply is not large enough to capture VHF signals and provide reliable reception in the face of daily signal-strength variations caused by changing temperatures, wind, cloud cover, etc. Longer-wave signals such as those from channels 7, 9 and 12 reflect off the ground differently as the ground temperature cools after dusk. Declining air temperature has virtually no impact on the antenna itself.

For VHF reception in particular, size matters. There are several passive VHF/UHF models that will likely provide enough gain for your three tuners without the need for additional amplification. The best model at RS would be AntennaCraft's HBU-33; if you're willing to shop online, Winegard's HD-7694 is worth a good look, and might be slightly less expensive despite the shipping fee. Unlike the big, bad antennas of yore that were seven or eight feet wide, these two models are about three feet wide. Both are five or six feet long and weigh less than five pounds.

Thanks for the explanation. I sort of figured. Short of buying a new/expensive antenna, is there any way to compensate for the drop off? Is the position of my antenna in relation to my house part of the problem? Will antenna height change anything?

Is there any sense in my trying the $11 Radioshack wonder? I'd really rather not spend $100 on a new antenna. I'll just watch Lost 24 hours later on abc.com if it comes to that.

Thanks again!

Is the position of my antenna in relation to my house part of the problem? Will antenna height change anything?
Worth a try. Try to have a helper keep an eye on one of the tuner's signal meters as you try different places and heights. That way, you can find the best spot for all desired channels. The higher you get the signal levels, the fewer daily dropouts you'll encounter.

Is there any sense in my trying the $11 Radioshack wonder?
As long as your home has wood siding and not brick, stone or stucco, sure. At least RS will take it back if it doesn't work well. But since the signals are weaker indoors, you'll need one for each tuner. One of those antennas won't have enough gain for all three tuners. So buy one first and try it at each tuner before making a final decision.

Posted in wrong thread.

All, have a question about COAX and splitters on the OTA signal.
I now have 2 x HDHomeruns but am having issues finding a place for the 2nd antenna so my questions is can I go to a 4x1 splitter and will that still be good or will I start to lose something then ? Any thoughts and recommendations is greatly appreciated

WC

Is there any sense in my trying the $11 Radioshack wonder?

A $3 Big Lots set top antenna would work. You have plenty of signal in your area. You just need an antenna that has some VHF reception.

All, have a question about COAX and splitters on the OTA signal.
I now have 2 x HDHomeruns but am having issues finding a place for the 2nd antenna so my questions is can I go to a 4x1 splitter and will that still be good or will I start to lose something then ? Any thoughts and recommendations is greatly appreciated

WC

Anytime you split a signal you will have loss, but I find that there generally isn't much. Depends on where you are and your set up (i.e. how strong your signals are to start with). You can also use a distribution amplifier if needed. Channel Master makes one that amplifies 4 outputs separately that is quite inexpensive online.

http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?mc=03&p=CM3414&d=Channel-Master-CM-3414-Distribution-Amplifier-(CM3414)&c=Amplifiers&sku=

I live in Firestone (about 30 miles from Lookout Mountain) and I've got a Clearstream 2. I pick up pretty much all of the channels I expected - and for the most part - they come in clearly. But I do get a fair amount of stutters/hiccups. Any tip/hints? What about a small amplifier?

Any tip/hints? What about a small amplifier?
If the C2 is hooked up to just one or two sets, an amplifier will likely make things worse, not better. A Clearstream C2 is well suited for picking up the UHF stations at your location, but as this tester (http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/ClearStream2.html) notes, it is not designed for VHF channels like 7 (ABC), 9 (NBC) or 12 (CPT). If 7, 9 and 12 are causing most of these issues, you'd be better served by getting a small antenna designed for channels 7-13, and combining it with your C2. Your best candidates would be a Clearstream C5 (a well-built match for your C2, but pricey), or an AntennaCraft Y5-7-13. Their performance is similar. Cleasrtream maker Antennas Direct sells a VHF/UHF antenna combiner (http://www.antennasdirect.com/antenna_combiner.html); a UVSJ (http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?mc=03&p=UVSJ&d=Pico-Macom-UVSJ-UHF-VHF-Band-SeparatorCombiner-for-Antenna-(UVSJ)&c=Signal%20Combiners&sku=) will do the job, too.

You'll need two short coax cables to hook up each antenna with the combiner. Both antennas can go on the same mast, but they need to be separated by at least three feet to work properly.

If the C2 is hooked up to just one or two sets, an amplifier will likely make things worse, not better. A Clearstream C2 is well suited for picking up the UHF stations at your location, but as this tester (http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/ClearStream2.html) notes, it is not designed for VHF channels like 7 (ABC), 9 (NBC) or 12 (CPT). If 7, 9 and 12 are causing most of these issues, you'd be better served by getting a small antenna designed for channels 7-13, and combining it with your C2. Your best candidates would be a Clearstream C5 (a well-built match for your C2, but pricey), or an AntennaCraft Y5-7-13. Their performance is similar. Cleasrtream maker Antennas Direct sells a VHF/UHF antenna combiner (http://www.antennasdirect.com/antenna_combiner.html); a UVSJ (http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?mc=03&p=UVSJ&d=Pico-Macom-UVSJ-UHF-VHF-Band-SeparatorCombiner-for-Antenna-(UVSJ)&c=Signal%20Combiners&sku=) will do the job, too.

You'll need two short coax cables to hook up each antenna with the combiner. Both antennas can go on the same mast, but they need to be separated by at least three feet to work properly.

Thanks Don! That's exactly what I was looking for. Most of the issues are on 7 and 9. I don't think we have problems with anything else. My C2 is feeding into a dual channel HDHomerun, but we only use one TV.

I'll check out the links! I appreciate it!

Don,

The C5 comes with a U/V combiner already in the box should he go that route.

Hey guys... long time...

Say, I've been watching the Olympics on KUSA 9.1 via an HDHomeRun and the compression artifacts are really bad. I figure it is because they are wasting their bandwidth allocation on 9.2 and 9.3 (9.4?!) As far as I know, I am receiving KUSA in the best possible form (OTA) and I really pity the people that are watching it (recompressed yet again) on Comcast or via Satellite.

I searched back through the thread here to see if there were any comments about this, but don't see any, so I figure it is a moot point and KUSA won't change/listen.

Is that true? Has this issue already been beaten to death, or is this an opportunity for us to at least embarrass KUSA a bit? You would figure with a premier sporting event like the Olympics going on that they might pay some attention.

Thanks,

-John

I thought I'd let you all know that KDEO-LD is operating at 50% power. We are waiting for delivery of a combiner for the transmitter power amps. Hopefully we will be back at 100% by the end of Feb.

The transitions went smooth. I did learn that some converter boxes didn't scan the new frequency in. Most of the problems can be remedied by unplugging the box from wall power, waiting a couple of minutes, the re-scan.
Then some problems are due to the decreased power too.

I plan to keep the nostalgic programming going on TV23.2. I receive a lot of email & calls from viewers that enjoy my bad movies and d-rated sci-fi flicks.

Say, I've been watching the Olympics on KUSA 9.1 via an HDHomeRun and the compression artifacts are really bad. I figure it is because they are wasting their bandwidth allocation on 9.2 and 9.3 (9.4?!) As far as I know, I am receiving KUSA in the best possible form (OTA) and I really pity the people that are watching it (recompressed yet again) on Comcast or via Satellite.


Yes, the compression artifacts can be pretty bad at times. Sometimes they are so bad I wonder if they would even be eliminated if KUSA didn't have the extra subchannels and used the maximum available ATSC bandwidth. But yes, the subchannels are surely a significant part of the problem. I've seen people praising the quality of the Olympics programming in markets that only have one subchannel.

I think NBC sometimes makes it really difficult to achieve high quality realtime mpeg2 compression when they use certain camera techniques. One example is the cross country skiing starts. They have the camera zoom in on the skier at the start and then follow him/her as they pass the camera, i.e. the skier approaches the camera and then the camera pans real fast as the skier passes by. during that real fast pan the picture becomes a total mess. It happens so fast that you may not even be aware of it sometimes, but just try pausing the picture at that point and take a look at the mess. I think that no compressor is going to be able to get that right in realtime, even if 18-19 Mbps was available. I think that some techniques that may have worked for many years in analog need to be changed to take into account the limitations of digital compression.

I'm also noticing a high pitched whine in the background audio. It can be clearly heard as they transition to a commercial (i.e. during the silence), and when they return, but I can sometimes hear it behind the audio programming. I've read other discussions regarding the Olympic programming, and I haven't seen anyone else comment on it, so I assume this is a KUSA problem (I'm pretty sure it's not on my end, since I notice it on multiple TV's/tuners). Note, I characterize the sound as "high pitched", but I have analyzed it, and the base fundamental is around 1500 Hz. It sounds high pitched because it includes many of the harmonics of 1500 Hz.

As far as OTA being the best method of receiving KUSA, that may not be true. First of all, many people think that cable channels recompress the signal, but most don't, i.e. they pass the unmodified OTA video and audio streams. But it is also possible for a cable or satellite company to have a better signal than OTA if they receive a direct feed from the station. I believe that at least one of the satellite providers, and possibly Comcast, get a direct feed of a higher quality digital signal (i.e. before ATSC compression) from KUSA. In that case those providers have the opportunity to provide a higher quality signal to their customers. Whether or not that is actually the case I have no idea.

I also note that you put "9.4" in parenthesis. Are you aware of plans for yet another subchannel? I know KUSA at one time talked about adding Mobile DTV programming. I really hope they aren't going to reduce the bandwidth of the HD subchannel even more in order to add more programming, but it seems clear to me that the accountants overrule the technical staff when it comes to signal quality issues.

And ironically, even though they own and could therefore put weather plus and universal sports on 20-2 and 20-3, they refuse to do that. I guess they are just saving the entire 18+ Mbs on 20 for all of those SD movies and reruns we get to see on MyTV :( . It is really amazing that the management there chooses to run sub-channels on the station with real HD contnet, while not fully utilizing the bandwidth on the other station. Crazy.

Yes, the compression artifacts can be pretty bad at times. Sometimes they are so bad I wonder if they would even be eliminated if KUSA didn't have the extra subchannels and used the maximum available ATSC bandwidth. But yes, the subchannels are surely a significant part of the problem. I've seen people praising the quality of the Olympics programming in markets that only have one subchannel.

I think NBC sometimes makes it really difficult to achieve high quality realtime mpeg2 compression when they use certain camera techniques. One example is the cross country skiing starts. They have the camera zoom in on the skier at the start and then follow him/her as they pass the camera, i.e. the skier approaches the camera and then the camera pans real fast as the skier passes by. during that real fast pan the picture becomes a total mess. It happens so fast that you may not even be aware of it sometimes, but just try pausing the picture at that point and take a look at the mess. I think that no compressor is going to be able to get that right in realtime, even if 18-19 Mbps was available. I think that some techniques that may have worked for many years in analog need to be changed to take into account the limitations of digital compression.

I'm also noticing a high pitched whine in the background audio. It can be clearly heard as they transition to a commercial (i.e. during the silence), and when they return, but I can sometimes hear it behind the audio programming. I've read other discussions regarding the Olympic programming, and I haven't seen anyone else comment on it, so I assume this is a KUSA problem (I'm pretty sure it's not on my end, since I notice it on multiple TV's/tuners). Note, I characterize the sound as "high pitched", but I have analyzed it, and the base fundamental is around 1500 Hz. It sounds high pitched because it includes many of the harmonics of 1500 Hz.

As far as OTA being the best method of receiving KUSA, that may not be true. First of all, many people think that cable channels recompress the signal, but most don't, i.e. they pass the unmodified OTA video and audio streams. But it is also possible for a cable or satellite company to have a better signal than OTA if they receive a direct feed from the station. I believe that at least one of the satellite providers, and possibly Comcast, get a direct feed of a higher quality digital signal (i.e. before ATSC compression) from KUSA. In that case those providers have the opportunity to provide a higher quality signal to their customers. Whether or not that is actually the case I have no idea.

I also note that you put "9.4" in parenthesis. Are you aware of plans for yet another subchannel? I know KUSA at one time talked about adding Mobile DTV programming. I really hope they aren't going to reduce the bandwidth of the HD subchannel even more in order to add more programming, but it seems clear to me that the accountants overrule the technical staff when it comes to signal quality issues.

I agree... really nuts to have such poor video quality especially during a premier event such as the Olympics. I'd like them to take some heat for it now, and let them know that people ARE noticing the lack of quality.

When I watched the Daytona 500 on Fox (31.1) the other day, the quality of their 720p encoding/and or lack of sub-channels was dramatically better than what I am seeing on KUSA. Were the Football Divisional Championship games on channel 4, KCNC? Because I remember (again) being so much more impressed with KDVR's presentation of Football in 720p versus KCNC/KUSA's 1080i. I don't think KCNC runs sub-channels? Is that correct? If so, and the Divisional Championship games were on KCNC then that scares me that 1080i either looks really bad on my rig, or, that 1080i/encoding 1080i is somehow inherently flawed compared to 720p.

Anyway... I sure would like to figure a way to give KUSA some flack about the sub-channels during this high-profile time... maybe I will write some letters to the editor of the Denver Post or something.

Even if they temporarily turned off the sub-channels during premium events... what they are broadcasting now is SCARY BAD. :(

-John

Thanks for the info and welcome to the thread! Do you think you will cover metro Denver with the increased power?

As soon as the weather gets nice I want to point my Radio Shack yagi NW to see if I can pick you up in Littleton. I can see downtown Denver from my roof so I hope I might get a shot.

I understand at one time your channel carried the local news from KGWN in Cheyenne. Any chance of that coming back?

I thought I'd let you all know that KDEO-LD is operating at 50% power. We are waiting for delivery of a combiner for the transmitter power amps. Hopefully we will be back at 100% by the end of Feb.

The transitions went smooth. I did learn that some converter boxes didn't scan the new frequency in. Most of the problems can be remedied by unplugging the box from wall power, waiting a couple of minutes, the re-scan.
Then some problems are due to the decreased power too.

I plan to keep the nostalgic programming going on TV23.2. I receive a lot of email & calls from viewers that enjoy my bad movies and d-rated sci-fi flicks.

I'm also noticing a high pitched whine in the background audio. It can be clearly heard as they transition to a commercial (i.e. during the silence), and when they return, but I can sometimes hear it behind the audio programming. I've read other discussions regarding the Olympic programming, and I haven't seen anyone else comment on it, so I assume this is a KUSA problem (I'm pretty sure it's not on my end, since I notice it on multiple TV's/tuners). Note, I characterize the sound as "high pitched", but I have analyzed it, and the base fundamental is around 1500 Hz. It sounds high pitched because it includes many of the harmonics of 1500 Hz.Hmm, I haven't noticed that, but my sound system is currently quite limited.
As far as OTA being the best method of receiving KUSA, that may not be true. First of all, many people think that cable channels recompress the signal, but most don't, i.e. they pass the unmodified OTA video and audio streams. But it is also possible for a cable or satellite company to have a better signal than OTA if they receive a direct feed from the station. I believe that at least one of the satellite providers, and possibly Comcast, get a direct feed of a higher quality digital signal (i.e. before ATSC compression) from KUSA. In that case those providers have the opportunity to provide a higher quality signal to their customers. Whether or not that is actually the case I have no idea.Interesting. Thanks. I did look (briefly) at someone else's rig tonight, Comcast Cable on a much larger display than I have (although, his TV sucked, but it's not like you can say that ;))... and while it was not the olympics it was 9news' pre olympic show with a few olympic replays, std def stuff, etc. The HDTV quality was similar to what I expected, even though he thought it was gorgeous. lol. He could recognize the std def stuff as being terrible, however. :) He just didn't even think that HDTV COULD be terrible. :(

This person used to teach film/TV lighting... (although he is aging now)

I've asked him to watch carefully tonight and call me tomorrow with his observations.

I also note that you put "9.4" in parenthesis. Are you aware of plans for yet another subchannel? I know KUSA at one time talked about adding Mobile DTV programming. I really hope they aren't going to reduce the bandwidth of the HD subchannel even more in order to add more programming, but it seems clear to me that the accountants overrule the technical staff when it comes to signal quality issues.
No, I was just being facetious. ;)

-John

Yes, the compression artifacts can be pretty bad at times. Sometimes they are so bad I wonder if they would even be eliminated if KUSA didn't have the extra subchannels and used the maximum available ATSC bandwidth. But yes, the subchannels are surely a significant part of the problem. I've seen people praising the quality of the Olympics programming in markets that only have one subchannel.

Having seen Olympics broadcasts before KUSA had two subchannels, I can say that there would still be artifacts, but nowhere near the number we see now.

KUSA truly doesn't give a #$@! about their viewers or they would at least suspend the subchannels during the Olympics.

Instead, their attitude is like the mafia's - "Where else are you gonna go?" (Heh heh.)

Thanks to the federally enforced monopoly of network affiliates in their viewing areas, they're also absolutely right.

Just as is the case with their effectively 4:3 newscast with the text sidebar ("The Rundown!"), it just doesn't matter to them.

This is why I think it is important to yell now, during the Olympics.

Here's a premium event, that if we can make enough of a stink, can't be ignored.

It's 12:11 AM on Wednesday,,,

Can I ask everone to mail a letter to the Denver Post by Friday?

They will receive them Saturday/Monday.

If KUSA doesn't get heat by Wednesday next week, then I say we picket.

-John

Given the relatively small percentage of people who get their KUSA signal over the air to begin with, I don't think it will do much good, especially when you see the huge ratings margins KUSA already enjoyed over its competition pre-Olympics and the huge ratings gains the Olympics have given them:

NBC’s coverage of the XXI Winter Olympics’ opening ceremonies Friday night soared to the top of Olympic ratings history. It’s unknown whether that’s because of continued bad weather driving more people to their TVs, especially in the East, or due to the news of the fatal luge accident that preceded the opening (and NBC did a smooth job of segueing between Bob Costas on the sports side and Brian Williams on the tragic news). Fact is, more than 67 million viewers tuned in. NBC notes that’s 17 million more than watched the Torino Games and almost 6 million more than the Tonya Harding-Nancy Kerrigan smackdown in Lillehammer in ‘94.

The Mountain time zone did the most watching, per capita.
Denver ranked No. 3 behind Seattle and Milwaukee with a 25.4 rating, and 44 share, or percent of the people watching TV.

http://blogs.denverpost.com/ostrow/

In short, even if every one of us complained they wouldn't give a #$@! because, as I already mentioned, there's no alternative.

Given the relatively small percentage of people who get their KUSA signal over the air to begin with, I don't think it will do much good, especially when you see the huge ratings margins KUSA already enjoyed over its competition pre-Olympics and the huge ratings gains the Olympics have given them: In short, even if every one of us complained they wouldn't give a #$@! because, as I already mentioned, there's no alternative.

I think that KUSA has raised the bit rate on 9.3 (Universal Sports) and lowered the bit rate on 9.2 for the Olympics. Since Universal Sports is also broadcasting Olympics I don't think they would kill it for the Olympics no matter what. I'll check tonight and see if I can see any difference between KUSA and KOAA 5 (Colorado Springs/Pueblo)

Don't feel too bad, KNOP North Platte, NE is broadcasting the Olympics in 480i:p

For those of you who are interested, here are plans for a simple homebuilt antenna. You can build it either with or without a reflector. If you use a reflector (wire grid) it should be about 4 inches behind the elements. If you don't have a reflector the antenna will pull in stations from both sides. It is technically a UHF antenna, but I've pulled in both 7 and 9 here in Monument (49 miles from the towers).;)

I'll check tonight and see if I can see any difference between KUSA and KOAA 5 (Colorado Springs/Pueblo)

Watched the Olympics on both KUSA and KOAA and saw no decernable difference.

I see they have sub-channels too. :(

It's a pity.

-John

In short, even if every one of us complained they wouldn't give a #$@! because, as I already mentioned, there's no alternative.


I would guess that picture quality is one of their last priorities. The cash they believe they can make from their subchannels is probably their top.

I would guess that picture quality is one of their last priorities. The cash they believe they can make from their subchannels is probably their top.

Another thing that you may not be aware of is that the FCC is forcing the broadcastors to broadcast a hidden high quality SD subchannel for rebroadcast on analog cable (KOAA appears in letterbox form on analog Comcast). It will be a requirement until 2012. It isn't like a very low bitrate weather channel (in the case of KOAA) is downgrading the available bandwidth that much.

Another thing that you may not be aware of is that the FCC is forcing the broadcastors to broadcast a hidden high quality SD subchannel for rebroadcast on analog cable (KOAA appears in letterbox form on analog Comcast). It will be a requirement until 2012. It isn't like a very low bitrate weather channel (in the case of KOAA) is downgrading the available bandwidth that much.

This information is wrong. The cable companies have to provide a SD version to their subscribers until 2012, but the broadcasters do not have to provide an alternative SD feed to the cable companies (and KUSA is definitely not doing so). The cable companies convert the HD broadcast to SD. They either do a fixed letterbox, a fixed 4:3 crop, or they use the AFD information from the broadcaster to choose between letterbox and a 4:3 crop.

This information is wrong. The cable companies have to provide a SD version to their subscribers until 2012, but the broadcasters do not have to provide an alternative SD feed to the cable companies (and KUSA is definitely not doing so). The cable companies convert the HD broadcast to SD. They either do a fixed letterbox, a fixed 4:3 crop, or they use the AFD information from the broadcaster to choose between letterbox and a 4:3 crop.

My belief may have been based on a misunderstanding of a conversation I had with the broadcast engineer at KOAA. I asked him about multicasting before the analog cut off, and before they added their subchannel, and he told me that they were multicasting their HD and SD signals. Since they were still broadcasting analog, that may have been what he ment. Of course that answer had nothing to do with my question. I also read the same thing in a web article (that stations had to broadcast both a HD and SD signal), but that could have just been "urban myth" also.

A few weeks ago I rescanned and picked up a 7.3 which had the same content as 7.1. In the same scan I didn't pick up 7.27.... Strange!!!

Regarding KUSA and KMGH reception the complete opposite is true way up north....the signal becomes stronger in the evening with KUSA being the winner in the WORST reception category of ALL major Denver channels (about 50% lock in success and KMGH with about 70% lock in success). Regarding a post a few days ago in AVSForum....instead of writing the Denver Post it would probably be more worthwhile to complain to the FCC and (maybe) NBC corporate, although that may be futile due to their pending merger with Comcast. Apparently "serving the public in the metro area" is a term loosely defined as there are many OTA viewers in not only outlying areas with bad reception on KUSA/KMGH eg...Cheyenne/Wellington/Ft Collins/Greeley/Loveland but, also in close in communities such as Longmont/Lafayette and even in some areas of Denver proper...pretty amazing!! Very rarely are there reception complaints about KCNC/KRMA/KBDI/KTVD/KDVR or KPXC...all of which lock in between 80-95% signal strength here in Cheyenne so I guarantee the reception is even better in Northern Colorado. Myself being in Cheyenne I can understand KUSA's response to me that SE Wyoming is out of their coverage area but Northern Colorado...come on KUSA get a grip! It appears that KUSA is doing about as good a job serving the metro area as C-DOT does with I-25 on the miserable 4 lane stretch (which is dangerous, outdated and should be widened to 6 lanes) between Longmont and Ft Collins.

A few weeks ago I rescanned and picked up a 7.3 which had the same content as 7.1. In the same scan I didn't pick up 7.27.... Strange!!!

This is just a byproduct of KMGH's flakey PSIP generation. My understanding is that most stations have a backup PSIP generator. It appears that KMGH may have a backup PSIP generator that isn't programmed correctly. Anyway, every once in a while I see things like their tsid changing to 1, dropping 7.27 out of the TVCT table, and sometimes dropping PSIP altogether.

However, they've never sent a mapping for 7.3. The physical subchannel number for 7.1 is 3 though. Some tuners will use that if there is no psip data. Other tuners may have other algorithms when the tsid changes (a tsid uniquely identifies the station, so if the tsid changes a tuner may assume that it is receiving a different station on RF channel 7, and not want to reassign 7.1).

I'm located in Cheyenne and use the CM 7777 preamp combined with an Winegard YA1713 (for hi VHF Ch 7-13) and Antennas Direct 91XG (for UHF) mounted on my roof and pick up all the major Denver channels really well (except for KUSA and KMGH which lock in about 1/2 the time). Are any of you familiar with the new Antennas Direct C5 as a possible replacement for the Winegard YA1713 for long range hi VHF reception?

I looked over your setup and decided that it might be worth suggesting the Winegard AP 8275 preamp. It has 29 db of gain on the VHF side as opposed to the 23 db from the Channel Master, which may be all you need to pull your self up over the digital cliff. You would need a VHF-UHF combiner since it doesn't have one integrated with the amp. Here are links to solid signal.

AMP

http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?mc=03&p=SAP8275&d=Winegard-AP-8275-Chromstar-2000-Series-VHFUHF-Pre-Amplifier-(AP8275)&c=Pre-Amplifiers&sku=615798100162

COMBINER

http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?mc=03&p=UVSJ&d=Pico-Macom-UVSJ-UHF-VHF-Band-SeparatorCombiner-for-Antenna-(UVSJ)&c=Signal Combiners&sku=

I'll give it a try and let you know what happens. Like you mentioned I'm right at the digital cliff threshold and the extra 6db gain may be take care of it! Thanks for the info!

Are any of you familiar with the new Antennas Direct C5 as a possible replacement for the Winegard YA1713 for long range hi VHF reception?

The C5 should be compared heads-up to the 5 or 6-element high-VHF Yagis.

For the deepest fringe high-VHF reception, the extra 3-6 dB in gain offered by the 10-element yagi is needed.

Have you considered stacking a pair of Y10-7-13s?

No....due to the eye sore three antennas would create...( I already have two on my roof ). Thanks for the help though!

I looked over your setup and decided that it might be worth suggesting the Winegard AP 8275 preamp. It has 29 db of gain on the VHF side as opposed to the 23 db from the Channel Master, which may be all you need to pull your self up over the digital cliff. You would need a VHF-UHF combiner since it doesn't have one integrated with the amp.


No, the AP8275 will make things worse, rather than better. The primary factor that determines whether or not you will be able to receive a signal is the Signal to Noise (S/N) ratio. An amplifier amplifies the signal and the noise, so it doesn't improve the ratio. In fact, all preamps will contribute some level of noise and therefore degrade the S/N ratio, although the best preamps may have a lower noise figure than the tuner, and therefore degrade the S/N ratio less than if a preamp wasn't used (this is due to the fact that the degradation happens at the preamp, and after the preamp the signal and noise are amplified such that the noise is high enough that the noise contributed by the tuner is doesn't contribute much to any further degradation of the S/N ratio).

Note also that a preamp with too much gain can overload your tuner if you have strong local stations.

The Channel Master 7777 has the best noise figure available in an antenna preamp, and that is the main reason that it is regarded as one of the best, if not the best antenna preamp's available (unless you want to pay multiple $100's of dollars for a preamp). The AP 8275 has a higher noise figure, which is why it won't help, and most likely will give results that are not as good as a CM 7777.

The primary job of an antenna preamp is preserving the quality of the signal as it is received by the antenna, before it suffers losses from cable distance, various connectors, splitters, etc. That is why it is meant to be installed at the antenna or very close to it. It doesn't do anything magical in pulling in a better signal. If you want a better signal you need a better antenna setup.

The Channel Master 7777 has the best noise figure available in an antenna preamp, and that is the main reason that it is regarded as one of the best,

I would submit that it does not have the best noise figure (there are several "quieter" designs available) and that it is often suggested because of convenient features such as the switchable FM filters and separable U/V inputs.

It's a venerable design that has been around for many years through several evolutions and is a very successful and capable pre-amp for the price. It will continue to serve well in all likelihood for the future.

The only real caveat with it is that it generally should not be used for "close-in" work since its very good sensitivity also means its more susceptible to strong-signal overload and distortion.

No, the AP8275 will make things worse, rather than better.

I personally would have to see that to believe it. You may be right about it, but I never believe theory until its proved empirically. Is your theory based on 23db/2db being greater than 29db/2.9db. So, is the .9 db of noise really going to counter balance the 6db of gain? I do agree that a higher gain antenna would be a better solution since it wouldn't introduce noise.

One of the things that drives me crazy is Walmart and others marketing low gain antennas hooked to high noise amplifiers and advertising some super gain rating. Then people buy them and wonder why they have reception problems. The big box stores must get kickbacks from Comcast.:(

The primary job of an antenna preamp is preserving the quality of the signal as it is received by the antenna, before it suffers losses from cable distance, various connectors, splitters, etc.

That is the primary job of a preamp, but I also know that I pick up stations with my preamp that I don't without it, even with the tuner hooked directly to the antenna with the same cable I hook to the preamp. That wouldn't be true if all a preamp was good for was preserving the signal. You can't amplify a signal you don't have, but you can amplify a signal you do have over the threshold.

So, is the .9 db of noise really going to counter balance the 6db of gain?
This is an apples-and-oranges comparison: Greater amplifier gain does not counteract greater amplifier noise, and the reverse is also true. Brute gain used to make a difference in analog reception -- generally, more gain produced better results. With digital reception, using a pre-amp with gain that exceeds the cumulative loss of an antenna downlead and distribution system won't improve reception, it can only cause overload. The gain difference between a 7777 or an AP-series amp is irrelevant to most users because it takes hundreds of feet of cable and several splitters before system losses exceed even 18 dB, let alone 23 dB or 29dB or whatever. Remember, the scale we're dealing with is logarithmic, not linear...

OTOH, reducing pre-amp noise by tenths of a dB can make a huge difference when pulling in consistent signals from 100 miles out, as our friend from Cheyenne is attempting to do. That's simply because the signals he's trying to capture are so close to the ambient noise floor in the first place. When you raise that floor by using a noisier amp, you run a greater risk of drowning desired signals in that noise.

That is the primary job of a preamp, but I also know that I pick up stations with my preamp that I don't without it, even with the tuner hooked directly to the antenna with the same cable I hook to the preamp. That wouldn't be true if all a preamp was good for was preserving the signal. You can't amplify a signal you don't have, but you can amplify a signal you do have over the threshold.
All you've proven here is that if you don't use an amp, the cumulative losses of cabling, splitters and drops reduce some of your signals below the digital threshold. All it takes is the loss of a dB or two for a signal to go from fairly reliable to a blank screen.

Here's an alternative example: My Lookout Mountain antennas (VHF and UHF separates into a UVSJ) provide un-amplified signal levels of between 82 and 97 depending on station, time of day and weather conditions. We're 23 miles out with LOS. I've hooked up an HDP-269 pre-amp to the UVSJ as an experiment. Based on your assertions, I should have seen higher signal levels on at least some of the stations there. Guess what? I didn't: Meter readings were unchanged for most stations with the pre-amp. On two or three of them, the amp actually lowers signal levels by a few percentage points. (I know it's working, because it does slightly improve a couple of the weak, snowy analog LPs that are still around.) If I tried to use a 7777 or AP amp in this signal environment, my tuner would overload on just about everything.

I would submit that it does not have the best noise figure (there are several "quieter" designs available) and that it is often suggested because of convenient features such as the switchable FM filters and separable U/V inputs.

I tend to agree with jsmar on this. The CM pre-amp may not have the "quietest" noise data of all available pre-amps, but it is the quietest of those with comparable amplification level, sensitivity, and average cost. Yes you can go quieter, but you will give up something in one of those other categories and that is why the CMs are so popular and oft recommended.

That is the primary job of a preamp, but I also know that I pick up stations with my preamp that I don't without it, even with the tuner hooked directly to the antenna with the same cable I hook to the preamp. That wouldn't be true if all a preamp was good for was preserving the signal. You can't amplify a signal you don't have, but you can amplify a signal you do have over the threshold.

Your example doesn't demonstrate your point as noted by others; however, you've touched on a long running "bone of contention" regarding pre-amps. I fall into the group that believes a pre-amp does more than just make up line losses. Assuming a zero line loss hookup of the average consumer quality digital TV (e.g., a 3-year old Hatachi from Walmart), a very low noise, high sensitivity pre-amp may allow the receipt and lock of stations on that TV that the TV wouldn't see or wouldn't lock without the pre-amp. The issue here is tuner sensitivity and S/N ratio. The "good" pre-amp amplifies very weak signals and may allow the average TV tuner to see and lock them, which the tuner couldn't do with a direct feed of that weak signal due to inadequacies in the tuner.

The variation in digital tuner capability over the past ten years makes this apparent if you have various generations of tuners fed by the same system. The newest, high quality DTV tuner may readily lock in weak signals while a 6-year old tuner wouldn't lock the same signal from the same feed. But, add a properly sized, low noise pre-amp, and the 6-year old tuner may perform like the new tuner w/o the pre-amp. YMMV.

I've seen this on my own setup. I feed a Dish ViP 722 DVR off the same splitter as I feed the on-board tuner in my 2009 Sony Z5100. All of my VHF signals pretty much max out with both tuners and no amplification from a UHF/VHF combo antenna in my attic. But, with the UHF stations, the older Dish DTV tuner w/o amplification, has trouble locking some stations, while the Sony locks all available stations with at least a good signal. I had a CM7777 in the system to amplify UHF signals from "the old days" of weak signals from RP. While it still allowed reception of the UHF stations with either tuner and no apparent overload, I thought the post-transition broadcast locations and power levels might allow reception of UHF w/o the pre-amp. Well, that was true for the Sony tuner, but the Dish tuner had problems locking some stations. I then added an HDP-269 and the Dish tuner now performs near-as-well as the Sony tuner. In addition, all of the UHF signals on the Dish tuner dramatically increased in signal reading compared to the no pre-amp setup, and actually were better than the readings with the CM7777. The latter observation showed that the CM7777 actually was overloading now that the post-transition signals were available, but the overloading wasn't great enough to cause an actual loss of lock, just degradation of signal reading.

Here's an alternative example: My Lookout Mountain antennas (VHF and UHF separates into a UVSJ) provide un-amplified signal levels of between 82 and 97 depending on station, time of day and weather conditions. We're 23 miles out with LOS. I've hooked up an HDP-269 pre-amp to the UVSJ as an experiment. Based on your assertions, I should have seen higher signal levels on at least some of the stations there. Guess what? I didn't: Meter readings were unchanged for most stations with the pre-amp. On two or three of them, the amp actually lowers signal levels by a few percentage points. (I know it's working, because it does slightly improve a couple of the weak, snowy analog LPs that are still around.) If I tried to use a 7777 or AP amp in this signal environment, my tuner would overload on just about everything.

My experience is the opposite of yours. I'm 10 miles NNE of LOM with LOS to LOM and KDVR's tower. I get pretty much maximum signal readings on all the VHF channels, but the many of the UHF stations give me a problem with low signal levels (60s and low 70s) and occasional dropouts w/o any amplification. I am currently using an old 60" no-name UHF/VHF combo antenna in my attic (the antenna came with the house (it was set up in the garage) when we bought it in 1993) as my primary antenna, now that transition is essentially completed (BTW, I own 4 other antennas I bought from 2003 to 2005 to try to get our locals from downtown, but they offer no advantages post-transition and only the XG-91, pointed ESE, is still in service). The VHF and UHF signals from the antenna are separated by a Winegard CS-7750 Band Separator (discontinued and no longer available). I added an HDP-269 to the UHF side and experienced a dramatic increase in signal reading on my Dish ViP-722 DVR. All the LOM and KDVR readings are now in the 80s and 90s and I can lock KRMA in the mid to high 70s, whereas it consistently dropped out w/o the pre-amp. I did use a CM-7777 on the UHF signal and got a similar signal boost, though not as high as with the HDP-269, showing that the CM-7777 was starting to overload the signal.

I'm convinced that one's local environment is the greatest factor in any DTV reception setup and that optimizing that situation is not an exact science. One simply has to try available options and see what works best. For example, I can't explain my weak UHF signals from LOM at only 10 miles distance with LOS, but something about my location makes UHF signals tough to receive and it's been that way for both the old analog and now the digital signals. So, I just keep trying different setup configurations until I get the reception I want. YMMV!

I personally would have to see that to believe it. You may be right about it, but I never believe theory until its proved empirically. Is your theory based on 23db/2db being greater than 29db/2.9db. So, is the .9 db of noise really going to counter balance the 6db of gain?

Most definitely. As others have mentioned, you are comparing apples and oranges here. Noise figure becomes the most important factor once you've got enough gain to cover the losses after the preamp, plus enough margin so that the tuners noise figure doesn't significantly contribute to reducing the S/N ratio.


That is the primary job of a preamp, but I also know that I pick up stations with my preamp that I don't without it, even with the tuner hooked directly to the antenna with the same cable I hook to the preamp. That wouldn't be true if all a preamp was good for was preserving the signal. You can't amplify a signal you don't have, but you can amplify a signal you do have over the threshold.

I didn't say that is all a preamp can do. I also covered the possibility that the preamp may have a better noise figure than your tuner. In that case the preamp will allow you to pull in a station that your tuner may not be able to by itself. It's the better noise figure, not the gain that helps here.

When you talk about "threshold" you are really talking about the tuners sensitivity. The tuners sensitivity is a function of the tuners noise figure and the S/N ratio the tuner requires to be able to receive a signal. You can't do anything to improve the required S/N ratio. But you can effectively take the tuners noise figure out of the equation.

Although I've seen better discussion regarding noise figure, the following link is a good primer regarding the benefits of an antenna preamp: Antenna Basics (http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/basics.html)

Here's an alternative example: My Lookout Mountain antennas (VHF and UHF separates into a UVSJ) provide un-amplified signal levels of between 82 and 97 depending on station, time of day and weather conditions. We're 23 miles out with LOS. I've hooked up an HDP-269 pre-amp to the UVSJ as an experiment. Based on your assertions, I should have seen higher signal levels on at least some of the stations there. Guess what? I didn't: Meter readings were unchanged for most stations with the pre-amp. On two or three of them, the amp actually lowers signal levels by a few percentage points. (I know it's working, because it does slightly improve a couple of the weak, snowy analog LPs that are still around.) If I tried to use a 7777 or AP amp in this signal environment, my tuner would overload on just about everything.

Another apples to oranges comparison. What I've found is that most signal strength meters on most tuners don't measure signal strength, they measure signal quality. The only exception to that rule that I've found is the RCA DTA800 which measures signal strength. A good clean signal will lock in at 15%, but a 60% signal can be so noisy that it is unwatchable. If you have a 82-97% quality signal from the stations your receiving and the power level is adequate an amp can only decrease the quality of the signal while at the same time it is boosting signal strength.

If I want to know what the strength of my signal is I'll use my RCA DTA800. If I want to know how clean the signal is I'll use my Digital Stream DTX9950. The readings are totally different. A 20% signal on the RCA can read as 80% or 90% on the Digital Stream. So, for the purpose of this discussion the Wingard amp would probably only degrade the quality of the signal making reception worse not better.

... YMMV!
No use trying to disagree with that :D

IIRC, you're shadowed by one of the Table Mountains with respect to LOM, aren't you? Your own experience plus mine led me to conclude that, as in fringe reception areas, amps are also quite handy when capturing diffracted signals.

I personally would have to see that to believe it.

I've seen it - I had an AP 8275 and it didn't help me at all in Fort Collins. The CM-7778 did.

No use trying to disagree with that :D

IIRC, you're shadowed by one of the Table Mountains with respect to LOM, aren't you? Your own experience plus mine led me to conclude that, as in fringe reception areas, amps are also quite handy when capturing diffracted signals.

TVFool says I have LOS to the LOM towers (gakon's elevation plot showed the same) at 30 feet above ground level for my coordinates (approximate elevation of the antenna in my attic); however, while I get sterling high-VHF DTV signals (did for low VHF analog as well), I've always had a problem with UHF reception.

My guess is that I'm just on the fringe elevation of being affected by other houses, trees, and hills in my LOS (my house is along the Ralston Creek trail so it is a low spot on the path to LOM) and the UHF waves are more disturbed by that than are the VHF waves. In addition, my LOS to LOM passes over some Excel high voltage towers/lines about a quarter mile from my house and I've always suspected that they are close enough to my LOS elevation to create some problems as well. Since I can't confirm any of the foregoing I just work the problem until I find a solution that works, which is where I'm at now with the old combo antenna (UHF wasn't any better when I used my Winegard PR-9018 than it is with the old combo) and the HDP-269 pre-amp. I know I could do better with a roof mounted antenna (I did some experiments years back), but my wife won that argument years ago.

My only remaining problem is KPXC, which is 180 degrees off my LOM azimuth and a 2-Edge signal according to TVFool. On a good day I can barely lock the back-scatter signal with my Sony Z5100, but the Dish DVR doesn't see it at all. So far all my experiments with putting up another antenna to just get KPXC have degraded the rest of my signals so severely that it just isn't worth it. In addition, the expensive JoinTennas are no longer available in the channel 43 frequency range, so I'll just do without Channel 59 for now.

BTW, KRMT must have done something to either fix their PSIP data or improve their hardware as I can now not only see their signal, I can actually lock it on my Dish DVR with a signal in the high 60s. I just stumbled onto this change a week or so ago while running a new channel scan. Previously, I couldn't get a whiff of KRMT on any of my DTV tuners even though my antenna is pointed only a few degrees off a direct azimuth to their tower.

My main antenna is a homemade yagi similar to the XG-91. I made it specifically to pick up the weak signal KMGH used to broadcast from atop their building downtown. I could not maintain a lock on KMGH with the antenna, so I purchased a CM pre-amp, which did the trick. I do not remember what CM model the pre-amp is other than I remember it only had one input, not dual V/U inputs and the gain was something like 28-29 dB.

I haven't really touched this setup, other than to replace the rotor a couple of years ago, since I put it up. The antenna is 35' AGL.

My reason for this diatribe, since the last few posts have been dedicated to pre-amps, is to relate my experience with my setup with the CM pre-amp still in place.

If I point my antenna directly towards LOM/Morrison, I cannot receive the full power stations at those two locations. But I can receive the LP's, such as channel 28, and channel 51. To receive the full power stations, I must point my antenna about 30 degress south of LOM. But then I lose the LP's and channel 51. I receive the stations to my north, such as KFCT, KQCK, KDEN, and KPXC, etc. in the same manner, except I have to point off-axis about 30 east of north. In order to receive KGWN from Cheyenne and the new KCDO signal, I have to point directly at them.

The conclusion I reach from my situation is that I compensate for "too much" signal due to my pre-amp by pointing off axis but I doubt I'd receive KGWN or KCDO without the pre-amp - kind of a best of both worlds situation.

That's my mileage, YMMV.

So far all my experiments with putting up another antenna to just get KPXC have degraded the rest of my signals so severely that it just isn't worth it. In addition, the expensive JoinTennas are no longer available in the channel 43 frequency range, so I'll just do without Channel 59 for now.
I aimed a PR/HD-9032 at KPXC and combined it with my LOM UHF antenna on a splitter. After a fair amount of fussing with aim and tilting (it's one-edge here), it gets 59.x reliably, and also pulls down KGWN now and again. I tried an amplifier on it, which boosted KPXC, KPJR, KDEN and even KWHD (205˚ away!) by about 25 percentage points each. Problem was, it also clobbered the signals from KCNC, KRMA, KTVD, KDEO and KDVR, so I removed it.

I've read posts from people who successfully isolated two attic antennas from one another by erecting a foil or hardware-cloth barrier between them and grounding the barrier. Easier said than done for me given antenna aims and mount locations, but maybe it'll work for you...

BTW, KRMT must have done something to either fix their PSIP data or improve their hardware as I can now not only see their signal, I can actually lock it on my Dish DVR with a signal in the high 60s. I just stumbled onto this change a week or so ago while running a new channel scan. Previously, I couldn't get a whiff of KRMT on any of my DTV tuners even though my antenna is pointed only a few degrees off a direct azimuth to their tower.

KRMT showed up about a week and a half ago. If I were to disconnect my Colorado Springs facing antenna I would be able to get a solid lock with no drops, but I have no use for Daystar.:( Someone needs to come up with a solid Protestant Christian network. TBN, LeSea, and Daystar just don't cut it.

Posted by CEB II:
BTW, KRMT must have done something to either fix their PSIP data or improve their hardware as I can now not only see their signal, I can actually lock it on my Dish DVR with a signal in the high 60s. I just stumbled onto this change a week or so ago while running a new channel scan. Previously, I couldn't get a whiff of KRMT on any of my DTV tuners even though my antenna is pointed only a few degrees off a direct azimuth to their tower.

I have two Dish receivers, a 211 and a 222. The 211 has always picked up KRMT. (So do all of my other tuners.) The 222 still will not display video, only audio. So KRMT still has some PSIP tweaking to do.

KUSA is broadcasting NO CENTER CHANNEL AUDIO right now. It's Chuck without the dialogue, just music and sound effects. This started a little during the NBC news at 5:30.
WTF?

Okay, they regrouped and went to small-screen. Is this a national glitch or just KUSA?

Okay, now the full 16 x 9 is back. Hmmm.

Nope -- false alarm. Sound still broken. Back to 4 x 3. sigh.

If the center channel is still off, call the Ch 9 newsroom and tell them to tell the booth about it. A year or 2 ago many of us did this for all the stations when they would forget to "flip the switch" to hd. It happened quite often.

Actually, it was intermittent during Brian Williams' opening story. I think something may be actually fried somewhere. Just a thought.

I would guess that it's an issue at KUSA...equipment problems perhaps. I noticed a couple of times during Olympic coverage that they switched from HD to SD. After about 20 minutes or so, they seemed to have the situation resolved and switched back to HD. I've noticed the same thing occassionally on KWGN and KDVR, so it's not limited to KUSA, but it is very annoying when it happens.

It's happening again. Law & Order on kusa is SD, letterboxed. OTA and on D* too.

Just called Ch 9 - just like Juan said, they said there's an audio problem on the HD broadcast so they have to send out SD.

Here is the response I received from KUSA this morning:

We have a device that conditions, corrects, and balances our 5.1 audio service from the network.
That device failed early last evening as we were going into prime time.
We changed our service from HD to SD so that we could provide the correct audio while we worked on the problem.
The issue was eventually corrected and the rest of the prime time presentations last evening were in HD with the correct audio.
Ken Highberger

My original e-mail to them at 8 p.m. last night included the question, "When will you be rebroadcasting this episode of Chuck," noting that long sections of dialogue and plot were missing, basically ruining the show. You'll note that Mr. Highberger simply states what happened and that he "fixed" the problem, without apologizing or mentioning any rebroadcasting.
As we all have suspected, 9 really doesn't care.

Your only choice may be to watch it online.

Yeah, in fairness, I usually forget about NBC's online archives, mostly because they've screwed around with delivery formats a few times (proprietary viewers that didn't work, etc.) and weren't always reliable.
Anyway, this is what I just receieved from Mr. Highberger:
I do not believe at this time there is a place on the schedule to rebroadcast a show before the summer rerun season.
Ken Highberger

There's still a summer rerun season? since when? 2000? So at least there's the Internet, when you can't always rely on, as Mark Koebrich calls it, "your teevee set."

9 cares less, Colorado stares less.

Your only choice may be to watch it online.

It is available on Hulu.

http://www.hulu.com/watch/130999/chuck-chuck-verus-the-fake-name

I recorded Chuck last night from KUSA rather than KOAA, bummer. :o

As we all have suspected, 9 really doesn't care.

Their PQ every day plus "The Rundown" effectively giving HD viewers a 4:3 picture during the news have already proved that.

They don't care, they don't have to.

No one's watching their network programming anyway, and they're #1 in news, so there's simply no reason for them to change.

Anyone else notice KRMA-DT off the air earlier today?

Anyone else notice KRMA-DT off the air earlier today?
I don't know about Wednesday, but I had a recording scheduled from 2:30PM to 3PM on Tuesday(3/2/10), and it looks like it was off the air at that time. Later on Tuesday, it also appeared to be off the air.
I have noticed that I was not receiving it a few times within the last couple of weeks. When I do receive it, the signal appears to be fine, so I don't think the problem is at our end.

Update: I just looked at my wednesday recording from 2:30-3PM(I record the This Old House family of programs on 6-3 M-F at 2:30PM). It had a few little break-ups. Each problem only lasted a few frames, and most of the frame was OK.

At 2:20AM, on Thursday 3/4/10, the signal looked strong, according to my Philips 42PF7320 TV.

I have no idea know what is going on.

Anyone else notice KRMA-DT off the air earlier today?
I just had a crazy thought. I am not positive, but I think my problems have been during the day, and probably when the weather has been nice. I wonder if they still have the "Ice Bridge" antenna, and have been using it, occasionally, while doing some maintenance or routine service to the primary transmitter. That would tend to intermittently effect us (and other people living in the Ls) while not bothering large portions of the Metro area.
Just a thought.
If I see a lot more of it, I will try to get through to KRMA engineering.

KRMA-Denver will operate at low power on Friday, March 5, 2010 from approximately 9:00 am to 10:00 am. Thank you for your patience.

Not sure where to ask this, but how does one go about getting a guide issue fixed? The guide data for KMGH-DT (at least on DirecTV and at Zap2It) has been wrong for several months about original air dates for Who Wants To Be A Millionaire. This is causing my DirecTV DVR to consider all episodes to be repeats. On the other hand, the guide data for the New York ABC station has the correct OAD's for the same show.

I've read posts from people who successfully isolated two attic antennas from one another by erecting a foil or hardware-cloth barrier between them and grounding the barrier. Easier said than done for me given antenna aims and mount locations, but maybe it'll work for you...


That's funny, this is exactly what I have been planning to try to get a north facing antenna to try to get KGWN. Since my antenna is in the rafters, I thought I might be able to do it. I haven't had time, and will probably be moving in a few weeks to a different house, so I may or may not ever get around to it. If I do, I will certainly post my results.

Greg

Anyone else find that OTA KRMA is now being broadcast as Channel 8.1,2,3 & 5 this morning with call letters KTSC which is RMPBS Colo Spgs/Pueblo channel?

I get OTA via a Dish DTV Pal DVR, but everything else is ok this morning, just the disappearing KRMA. In addition, their schedule is an hour off whereas everyone elses seems correct for daylight time. The feed to Dish Satellite is still ok on Channel 6 with a correct schedule.

Sigh.

I called them to let them know, just in case. However, the only people you can get on the phone are the overflow pledge service. No one else is available until Monday. The overflow service people were quite nice though.

Anyone else find that OTA KRMA is now being broadcast as Channel 8.1,2,3 & 5 this morning with call letters KTSC which is RMPBS Colo Spgs/Pueblo channel?

Yep -- I'm seeing that too. My husband noticed it late last night and it seems the same this morning.

I saw in an earlier post that KRMA was going to do transmitter work Friday Mar 5. I am guessing Fridays are let's try something day, OOPs they broke something!

I saw in an earlier post that KRMA was going to do transmitter work Friday Mar 5. I am guessing Fridays are let's try something day, OOPs they broke something!


Same here. I went looking for 6.x they were gone. I did a channel scan and the 8.x series showed up. Sure enough they are KRMA. BTW that is with D* in Denver.

Phil

According to my Vizio VX32L TV, KMGH(7) does not appear to be reporting the DST flag information correctly. It is the only major that I noticed a problem with. I also noticed the DST problem with KWHD(53), but consider that a minor. I believe the "majors" should have the resources to get the DST flags right.

Anyone else find that OTA KRMA is now being broadcast as Channel 8.1,2,3 & 5 this morning with call letters KTSC which is RMPBS Colo Spgs/Pueblo channel?

It seems that when they updated the PISP data for the daylight savings time change that they accidentally changed the virtual channel info to the wrong station. I get both KTSC and KRMA, but use KRMA since I have multi-path problems with KTSC (since my antenna is pointed north). My DTVpal DVR was really confused.:D

I don't know about anyone else out there, but I am glad that the new GM at 2/31 is dropping that stupid "Duece" moniker. To bad he just cant make it go away overnight but Channel 2's website is back to being kwgn.com

Anybody notice Fox is broadcasting just stereo since last night, not DD 5.1?

The FCC is presenting their broadband plan to Congress today. It includes the proposed reallocation of 120 Mhz (20 channels or 40%) of the television broadcast spectrum within the next 5 years. Please contact your Representative and Senators and tell them that while this plan is in the interest of the profits of the major telecoms it isn't in the public interest since it will limit a free service and replace it with subscription services. Also, what services do you shut down (which would have to happen)? Do you shut down Spanish language for English? Do you shut down religious broadcasting? Do you restrict free access to HD? This plan isn't in the public interest and Congress needs to be told about it.

I had been having signal break-up and occasional black screen problems with KRMA for a while, but I was not sure which end the problem was at. Things seemed to get resolved late Tuesday.

FYI: I did find a post in the Panorama Tech Talk forum that indicates that they believe they have fixed they immediate problem, but they need to look at preventing re-occurrence.

The post at http://www.rmpbs.org/panorama/index.cfm/entry/695/Recent-Signal-Problems-and-Resolution- indicates that they were having problems with the links between the studios and the Mt Morrison transmitter and that they aquired a different “receive” radio, and installed it about 8:40pm on Tuesday.

KWGN still has those issues too. They often show Two And A Half Men and Everybody Loves Raymond in SD. This week, they aired 90210 in SD. It's really annoying!

KCNC showing The Early Show in SD this morning.

I thought we were past "flip the switch" issues, unless their HD recorder failed…

More likely answer: The Early Show is not yet available in HD. :)

- Trip

More likely answer: The Early Show is not yet available in HD. :)

- Trip

You're right… ironic given that clips from the show are on CBS' web site in 16:9, and this article from January 14, 2008:

CBS relaunches ‘Early Show’ with new HD set

Looking to boost rating and skew to a younger audience, CBS relaunched its “Early Show” with a colorful new widescreen set on Monday, Jan. 7, that features mood lighting and open spaces for unobstructed interaction between the different on-air talent.

The new set, designed by James Fenhagen (production designer), Larry Hartman (art director), of New York-based Production Design Group (PDG), was constructed in one month’s time, which kept crews working around the clock, right through the holidays.

This included knocking down a wall separating the existing Studio A and B (former home of WCBS newscasts and, later, previous “Early Show” cooking segments) to create 5100sq-ft of studio space, which in turn necessitated a significant amount of new power wiring and video cable runs.

According to Frank Governale, vice president of operations, the set includes dozens of LCD and plasma displays and LED light boxes, with more than 500 DMX channels allocated solely to the fixtures. “All of the displays are RGB, so we can control each one of those squares,” Governale said. “Every square can be a different color and individually shaded to create a specific mood.”

Leveraging existing Sony F900 series HD cameras and the same control room (with a Sony HD switcher), the lighting in the studio was mounted higher on the grid than usual, which helps illuminate wide staging areas and give the illusion of a large, spacious set.

“A lot more attention was paid to the lighting design than in the past,” Governale said. “We don’t just use flood lights anymore.”

The floor of the studio has been releveled and painted to look like wood. The same control room is used, although a number of new DDRs have been added to handle the increased amount of monitors on-set. The new set also includes two 103in Panasonic plasma displays as main backdrops, and about a dozen other displays. …

http://broadcastengineering.com/news/cbs_relaunches_early_show_0114/

Looking around, CBS still says "sometime in 2010." My bad.

Even KDVR didn't wait so long to go HD after building their HD set…

Since nobody else has mentioned it:

KTFD 14.1 (Telefutura) and KCEC 51.1 (Univision) both upgraded from 480i to 1080i during the past week.

Here is a link to an interview with Jim Goodmon, the TV station owner who put up the first digital HD television station back in 1996. The interview is originally from the Broadcast Engineering Magazine podcast.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dvCwQ1ZAYs

He talks about former FCC Chairman Reed Hundt’s (Clinton administration) conscious decision to undercut TV broadcasting by purposely delaying the digital transition, and current Chairman Julius Genachowski’s academic mentor’s plan to use oppressive government regulation to eliminate broadcasting.

An interesting article today on the TVNewsCheck web site.

http://www.tvnewscheck.com/articles/2010/04/12/daily.2/

It references an interview of Verizon CEO Ivan Seidenberg, which was given at a CFR general meeting.

http://www.cfr.org/publication/21834

Basic points:

1. Technology will make spectrum use more efficient. (4G, etc.)

2. Efficiency is market driven.

3. The cable industry has bought about 150 MHz over the last 10-15 years that they aren't using for anything.

4. Any desire by Verizon to take more broadcast spectrum would be motivated by selfish self interest, not by need!

Over the last few weeks I have had a weird problem with OTA KRMA programs saved to my DVR. The programs can be played back, but fast forward and back fail to work. Activating fast forward jumps to the end of the program and backward jumps to the beginning. Everything works normally with KRMA recorded from the DirectV signal! This has only been an issue over that last few weeks to a month.

Anyone have any thoughts regarding the cause of the problem.

John

Over the last few weeks I have had a weird problem with OTA KRMA programs saved to my DVR. The programs can be played back, but fast forward and back fail to work. Activating fast forward jumps to the end of the program and backward jumps to the beginning. Everything works normally with KRMA recorded from the DirectV signal! This has only been an issue over that last few weeks to a month.

Anyone have any thoughts regarding the cause of the problem.

John

Which DVR do you have? Who is your TV service provider?

I have a DirectV DVR with a DirectV box which integrates OTA into the DVR. I did this because the KRMA OTA signal was much better than that via satellite. It worked fine until about a month ago.

Like any self-respecting CSR, I would recommend pushing the red button reset inside the the little door where the access card is located. If that doesn't work, I would ask the question on this forum:

http://www.dbstalk.com/forumdisplay.php?f=112&order=desc

All things DirecTv are discussed there.

The OTA integration box is an AM21. Be sure to mention that and the DVR model that you have (HR2?-???)

The red button has no effect. Recorded programs playback normally from all sources other than KRMA-OTA. Even KRMA programs recorded from satellite function normally - so the problem is not with the DVR.

The red button has no effect. Recorded programs playback normally from all sources other than KRMA-OTA. Even KRMA programs recorded from satellite function normally - so the problem is not with the DVR.
I record the This Old House family of programs on 6-3 at 2:30PM M-F on my Philips DVDR3576 and nothing has changed for me. Chapter advance, fast forward, reverse, step forward, and step back all work just fine.
I take it almost all your recordings are from the satellite feed.
Have you recorded anything OTA from a station other than KRMA for comparison?
Any chance DirectTV downloaded an "UPGRADE" to the OTA recording function to give you "ENHANCED" OTA recording capabilities?

Recordings from KBDI-OTA (Ch12-1) work just fine.

Hello-

I have a somewhat Denver specific antenna question and hope this is an appropriate place to post it.
I recently made the jump from satellite to OTA and started with a very simple setup I'd like to enhance.
Current setup:

Tuner: DTVPAL DVR
indoor "rabbit ear" antenna: RCA ANT111 bunny ears on second floor dresser
50ish foot Coax run (to basement)

I'm in the Stapleton area, this my tvfool info:
tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d72439f788edf1f

I'm getting pretty solid solid reception on the channels I want considering the cheepo ANT111, a pretty long run coax run, and a 3 story apartment building 100 yards west- line of sight between my place and western broadcast area:

2.1 CW-KWGN -71% strength
4.1 CBS-KCNC -76%
6.1 RMPBS-KRMA-95%
7.1 ABC-KMGH-83%
9.1 NBC-KUSA-76%
9.2 WX-Plus-76%
9.3 NBC-SPORTS 76%
12.1 COPBS-KBDI -76%
12.2 COPBS-DOC-76%
12.3 COPBS-WORLD-76%
20.1 My20-KTVD-85%
31.1 FOX-KDVR-93%
59.1 ION 64%
59.2 qubo 66%
59.3 ION life 66%

I'd like to get a better signal on the channels from the west I'm getting low 70s on as we get some digital artifacts. The complicated part is that I'd really like to figure out how to pick up the Ion 59s from the north as well.

Notes:

I wast thinking about putting a RCA ANT751 in my attic or outside.
I'd rather not mess around with a rotator if possible
I'd like to keep it to $150 max if possible


Any ideas of what might work for me?

Thanks in advance,
Kevin

Hello-

I have a somewhat Denver specific antenna question and hope this is an appropriate place to post it.
I recently made the jump from satellite to OTA and started with a very simple setup I'd like to enhance.
Current setup:

Tuner: DTVPAL DVR
indoor "rabbit ear" antenna: RCA ANT111 bunny ears on second floor dresser
50ish foot Coax run (to basement)

I'm in the Stapleton area, this my tvfool info:
tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d72439f788edf1f

I'm getting pretty solid solid reception on the channels I want considering the cheepo ANT111, a pretty long run coax run, and a 3 story apartment building 100 yards west- line of sight between my place and western broadcast area:

2.1 CW-KWGN -71% strength
4.1 CBS-KCNC -76%
6.1 RMPBS-KRMA-95%
7.1 ABC-KMGH-83%
9.1 NBC-KUSA-76%
9.2 WX-Plus-76%
9.3 NBC-SPORTS 76%
12.1 COPBS-KBDI -76%
12.2 COPBS-DOC-76%
12.3 COPBS-WORLD-76%
20.1 My20-KTVD-85%
31.1 FOX-KDVR-93%
59.1 ION 64%
59.2 qubo 66%
59.3 ION life 66%

I'd like to get a better signal on the channels from the west I'm getting low 70s on as we get some digital artifacts. The complicated part is that I'd really like to figure out how to pick up the Ion 59s from the north as well.

Notes:

I wast thinking about putting a RCA ANT751 in my attic or outside.
I'd rather not mess around with a rotator if possible
I'd like to keep it to $150 max if possible


Any ideas of what might work for me?

Thanks in advance,
Kevin

For a attic mount I'd get an AntennaCraft Y5-7-13

http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?mc=03&p=Y5-7-13&d=AntennaCraft-Y5713-HighbandBroadband-VHF-HD-Yagi-TV-Antenna-for-Channels-713-(Y5713)&c=TV Antennas&sku=716079000987

Point it toward 7,9 and 12 (RF 13)

And use a VHF UHF combiner

http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?mc=03&p=UVSJ&d=Pico-Macom-UVSJ-UHF-VHF-Band-SeparatorCombiner-for-Antenna-(UVSJ)&c=Signal Combiners&sku=

to hook it to a 4 bay such as a Channel Master 4221HD 4-bay HDTV/UHF TV Antenna

http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?mc=03&p=4221-HD&d=Channel-Master-4221HD-4bay-HDTVUHF-TV-Antenna-&c=TV Antennas&sku=

Point the UHF antenna midway between Fox and Ion. I'd try it with and without the reflector. The reflector gives it more gain in one direction, taking the reflector off will make it more omni-directional. Without the reflector you may pick up KCDO channel 3 (RF 23) and KWHD channel 53 (RF 46) for any Retro TV fix you may need.

That should be well within your budget if you buy it from solidsignal. You could also build your own 4 bay. (See attached) The dim from the elements to the reflector (wire grid) is 4 inches.

If your house is wired for satellite you already have a mount and cabling for an outside antenna, that should already be properly grounded, but you don't want to use a directional antenna such as the ANT751 for UHF. VHF yes, UHF no.

The advantages to an attic mount are, you don't have to worry about lightning, it doesn't look bad to the neighbors, and you don't need to climb on the roof to adjust it. The disadvantages are if you have metal in the roof or aluminum back insulation in the rafters it won't work, and you lose 50% of your signal with normal building materials. You have lots of signal, so that shouldn't be a real issue.

In Monument (49 miles from the towers) I use an AntennaCraft Y5-7-13 with an AntennaCraft 8 bay UHF antenna mounted in my attic, with an AntennaCraft medium gain preamp, and I pick up the Low Power Channel 28 (HSN & MTV-3) with ease. (The DTVpal DVR won't decode MTV-3 for some reason.)

Hello-

I have a somewhat Denver specific antenna question and hope this is an appropriate place to post it.

...

Any ideas of what might work for me?

Thanks in advance,
Kevin

I live in East Denver near 6th Ave. Parkway and Monaco.

About a year ago I purchased a high VHF/UHF combo antenna that I have mounted in my attic. Height is about 18' above ground level. Cable run is about 25', but I don't think 50' would be a problem.

I'm using a DTVPal DVR like yours.

Have good results with this antenna, very little pixellation and only during very strong winds (lots of tall trees moving around) or very heavy snowfall. Generally not a problem at all. I've appended my reception numbers to your table below:

2.1 CW-KWGN -71% strength, 90
4.1 CBS-KCNC -76%, 91
6.1 RMPBS-KRMA-95%, 98
7.1 ABC-KMGH-83%, 96
9.1 NBC-KUSA-76%, 100
12.1 COPBS-KBDI -76%, 96
20.1 My20-KTVD-85%, 80
31.1 FOX-KDVR-93%, 100
59.1 ION 64%, 85

At these levels there's really no problem.

The antenna is an Up-7 from Denny's Antennas which is designed to pick up from VHF 7 on up through UHF. This is necessary since Ch 7 and 9 are both using high VHF for their broadcasts.

http://www.dennysantennaservice.com
(pick TV Antennas from the left menu)

Current price is $89 with free shipping. If mounting in an attic you can use just about anything to mount it.

The antenna is an Up-7 from Denny's Antennas which is designed to pick up from VHF 7 on up through UHF. This is necessary since Ch 7 and 9 are both using high VHF for their broadcasts.

And channel 12 is broadcast on RF 13.

A similar antenna to the Up-7 is a AntennaCraft HBU22 which you can get at RadioShack for $39.99 plus tax.

And channel 12 is broadcast on RF 13.

A similar antenna to the Up-7 is a AntennaCraft HBU22 which you can get at RadioShack for $39.99 plus tax.

Thank you to those who took the time to reply. I'll let you guys know how it goes.

Based on testimony given by NAB President and CEO Gordon Smith before the Senate Committee on Small Business and Entrepreneurship…

http://www.nab.org/documents/newsroom/pdfs/042710_Small_Biz_Spectrum_Written.pdf

…the FCC is talking out of both sides of their mouth; saying on one hand that their plan to reallocate broadcast spectrum will be strictly voluntary while on the other hand proposing charging broadcasters large fees which would force many broadcasters to “volunteer.” In other words, a backhanded plan to clear the broadcast bands without using proper established procedures.

Wow, we're really now going 2+ weeks between posts?

Wow, we're really now going 2+ weeks between posts?

Ok, I'll take a shot at starting a discussion.

Is anyone else getting really tired of the formatting issues on Channel 6.1?

I sometimes think I may be going nuts, but I swear that much of the programming looks to be 16:9 that's been side cropped to 4:3 and then stretched to fill a 16:9 screen.

As a prime example there's the show "Need to Know" on Fri. evenings. This is the show PBS put on to take over the Bill Moyer's Journal time slot. As the replacement for one of the main commentary shows on PBS, you'd think they'd want to get it at least correct, but no, it's cropped and stretched.

Of course I can adjust my TV aspect ratio to get rid of the "fat face", but then the cropping is very evident. On the premier show on the 7th, during wide shots of the interview with Bill Clinton both the host and Bill Clinton were cropped right through the middle of their heads. The formatting on the show on the 14th is the same.

This seems to me to be happening on more and more content on 6 and sometimes in a way that it doesn't appear to be possible to find any combination of settings where the image isn't distorted.

Any thoughts? Would complaining make any difference?

Ok, I'll take a shot at starting a discussion.

Is anyone else getting really tired of the formatting issues on Channel 6.1?

I sometimes think I may be going nuts, but I swear that much of the programming looks to be 16:9 that's been side cropped to 4:3 and then stretched to fill a 16:9 screen.

As a prime example there's the show "Need to Know" on Fri. evenings. This is the show PBS put on to take over the Bill Moyer's Journal time slot. As the replacement for one of the main commentary shows on PBS, you'd think they'd want to get it at least correct, but no, it's cropped and stretched.

Of course I can adjust my TV aspect ratio to get rid of the "fat face", but then the cropping is very evident. On the premier show on the 7th, during wide shots of the interview with Bill Clinton both the host and Bill Clinton were cropped right through the middle of their heads. The formatting on the show on the 14th is the same.

This seems to me to be happening on more and more content on 6 and sometimes in a way that it doesn't appear to be possible to find any combination of settings where the image isn't distorted.

Any thoughts? Would complaining make any difference?

I agree. On my Sony Z400 it is a squeezed 4x3 480 i. On my E* 622 it is a 16x9 immage, and seems to be over scanned. I have no idea what the resolution dish recieves.

Rocky Mountain PBS, more specifically, KRMA 6.X in Denver, originates 4 program feeds in Denver (3 video channels, 6.1, 6.2, 6.3, & one audio only channel). RMPBS is presently completing their new HD Master Contral facilities in Denver from which RMPBS for the whole state of Colorado is feed. Anticipated completion is sometime in June (2010).

In Denver, OTA 6.1 is broadcast SD in a 16:9 format pending completion of the HD feed source from Master Control (an occasional program is broadcast in HD). Of course, the program origination must be in 16:9 to actually have a 16:9 display regardless of SD or HD configuration. 6.2 & 6.3 are broadcast in a 4:3 format.

Comcast cable in Denver is feed via fiber from RMPBS, but randomly and beyond the control of RMPBS, Comcast sometimes feeds their cable system with an OTA signal from KRMA. DirecTV and Dish feed their Denver satellite systems from the KRMA OTA siganl.

RMPBS has no control over what Comcast, DirecTV and Dish do to the KRMA signals. Incorrect aspect ratio is a source of frustration to RMPBS as they are trying very hard to have proper aspect ratios on all of their program on all three channels, i.e., 6.1, 6.2 & 6.3, but sometimes the other delivery providers change the aspect ratio of KRMA signals.

Also, RMPBS occasionaly receives some odd program packaging from PBS, e.g., graphics outside the 4:3 safe area on a 16:9 program which does not produce a good result for persons viewing on a 4:3 television.

When a problem occurs, it would help KRMA to know how each AVS Forum poster receives the RMPBS/KRMA signal, i.e., OTA, cable, or satellite (and who is the provider of service). An email to RMPBS, a post to their Tech blogs, or a phone call to RMPBS Engineering with the above information would be helpful in helping KRMA resolve any technical problems. http://www.rmpbs.org

Is anyone else getting really tired of the formatting issues on Channel 6.1?



I'm was watching Masterpiece Mystery! on KRMA 6.1 OTA at 9:45 PM on Sunday, 5/16/2010 on a 16:9 television. The program does appear to be zoomed in to fill the 16:9 aspect ratio being used on 6.1. There is no head room on the actors and some framing of some important picture elements would be horizontally off screen on a 4:3 television.

These problems may be worsened by the image formating of the KRMA signal of cable and satellite providers per my earlier post.

For the past few months KRMA has been doing fairly well with the aspect ratio. I haven't noticed any major problems until this past week.

On Tuesday, they aired Nova in letterboxed format which resulted in a horizontally stretched picture with black bars at the top and bottom. Then, on Friday, they aired Washington Week in 4:3 instead of the usual 16:9 format. Again, the picture ended up being stretched horizontally to fill the screen.

Fortunately, my TV allows me to compensate for KRMA's poor formatting, so I was able to view the programs in the correct aspect ratio, but many others might not be so lucky. For viewers using converter boxes, there is often no available aspect ratio setting that will display the picture properly.

Rocky Mountain PBS, more specifically, KRMA 6.X in Denver, originates 4 program feeds in Denver (3 video channels, 6.1, 6.2, 6.3, & one audio only channel). RMPBS is presently completing their new HD Master Contral facilities in Denver from which RMPBS for the whole state of Colorado is feed. Anticipated completion is sometime in June (2010).

In Denver, OTA 6.1 is broadcast SD in a 16:9 format pending completion of the HD feed source from Master Control (an occasional program is broadcast in HD). Of course, the program origination must be in 16:9 to actually have a 16:9 display regardless of SD or HD configuration. 6.2 & 6.3 are broadcast in a 4:3 format.

Comcast cable in Denver is feed via fiber from RMPBS, but randomly and beyond the control of RMPBS, Comcast sometimes feeds their cable system with an OTA signal from KRMA. DirecTV and Dish feed their Denver satellite systems from the KRMA OTA siganl.

RMPBS has no control over what Comcast, DirecTV and Dish do to the KRMA signals. Incorrect aspect ratio is a source of frustration to RMPBS as they are trying very hard to have proper aspect ratios on all of their program on all three channels, i.e., 6.1, 6.2 & 6.3, but sometimes the other delivery providers change the aspect ratio of KRMA signals.

Also, RMPBS occasionaly receives some odd program packaging from PBS, e.g., graphics outside the 4:3 safe area on a 16:9 program which does not produce a good result for persons viewing on a 4:3 television.

When a problem occurs, it would help KRMA to know how each AVS Forum poster receives the RMPBS/KRMA signal, i.e., OTA, cable, or satellite (and who is the provider of service). An email to RMPBS, a post to their Tech blogs, or a phone call to RMPBS Engineering with the above information would be helpful in helping KRMA resolve any technical problems. http://www.rmpbs.org

Nice try at defending KRMA's incompetence in broadcasting DTV channel 6.1 OTA. The issue of their messed up formating and the fact that different HDTV tuners display the content differently was noted months ago. It isn't any better now.

I primarily watch all of our locals via OTA DTV and on any one of three fairly new HDTV tuners, so the DBS and cable messing with RMPBS's output is just a red herring. What comes in as 16X9 for 6.1 on two of my OTA tuners is 4:3 on my newest (less than a year old) tuner on a high-end Sony HDTV. If I make an adjustment on the Sony to change that 4:3 to 16:9, I'm alright for the current widescreen broadcast. But, when they go back to a 4:3 broadcast, my newest tuner will show a poorly stretched picture. Meanwhile the other two tuners put everything on 6.1 in 16X9 format, so the 4X3 content is always stretched and I'm hard pressed to find a setting to "un-stretch" it that provides decent PQ. IMHO, KRMA doesn't seem to have a clue what they are doing in this interim period. I think they know what they want to do, but just don't have the ability to implement it.

Nice try at defending KRMA's incompetence in broadcasting DTV channel 6.1 OTA. The issue of their messed up formatting and the fact that different HDTV tuners display the content differently was noted months ago. It isn't any better now.

Everything I stated is factual. In my additional post, I stated that it appeared KRMA's formatting of Masterpiece Mystery! on Sunday night was problematic. They have had several months of improved formatting and recently seem to have had some new problems with formatting. I'm not excusing that, again just pointing out factual information.

If you examine the OTA digital stream data, which I have done, KRMA 6.1 is encoded (formatted) in a aspect ratio of 16:9 at 704x480i SD. 6.2 & 6.3 are encoded in 4:3 at 704x480i SD. Some HDTVs have auto adjusting settings for aspect ratio that can be turned on/off that can be causing display problems when they are turned on (as one of my HDTVs has).

Generally, I find the KRMA formatting problems appear to be originating somewhere from their program feed. KRMA is aware of the problems, they replaced their Director of Engineering a few months ago, and they have shown improvement.

As to the formatting on cable and satellite, my statement is not a red herring. The formatting is a known problem to the KRMA personnel and they have tried to address it with the other service providers. In fact, even in the present format configuration of 16:9 SD, I personally know of a DirecTV customer that uses his DVR to record the OTA signal thru the OTA antenna input of his DirecTV Receiver/HD DVR instead of his satellite feed due to the superior quality of the OTA signal compared to the satellite KRMA signal including receiving 16:9 OTA but 4:3 via satellite. As DirecTV receives their KRMA feed OTA, then the format change is occuring within the DirecTV facilities.

Again, the folks at KRMA are trying to resolve the problems with both program formatting and service provider formatting, and I personally know it is a big concern to them. We are all frustrated when the formatting is incorrect but that will hopefully smooth out with time.

Generally, I find the KRMA formatting problems appear to be originating somewhere from their program feed.

As to the formatting on cable and satellite, my statement is not a red herring. The formatting is a known problem to the KRMA personnel and they have tried to address it with the other service providers. In fact, even in the present format configuration of 16:9 SD, I personally know of a DirecTV customer that uses his DVR to record the OTA signal thru the OTA antenna input of his DirecTV Receiver/HD DVR instead of his satellite feed due to the superior quality of the OTA signal compared to the satellite KRMA signal including receiving 16:9 OTA but 4:3 via satellite. As DirecTV receives their KRMA feed OTA, then the format change is occuring within the DirecTV facilities.


Precisely! The cable and DBS service providers have to work with what they get from KRMA, just like those of us using the KRMA OTA DTV signal. Since the feed for channel 6.1 is of varying aspect ratios with often incorrect data packet information, the service providers just try to find a solution that gives them a constant product output. They don't have the time and resources to try to fix the problems and variability of channel 6.1 and it isn't their responsibility in the first place.

KRMA wants to be seen as an HDTV channel even though, due to a series of poor decisions over the past several years, they aren't currently capable of doing so. I hope their plan for a June transition to a full-time, real HDTV channel for 6.1 comes to fruition. If so, I'll be happy and I suspect that their issues with cable and DBS will quietly go away. Meanwhile, playing "who shot John" with the service providers is just a "red herring".

To clarify on the KRMA 6.1 encoding, the ATSC digital stream for 6.1 is coded 16:9 all of the time regardless of whether the program is originated from the server in 16:9 or 4:3. The image size setting for 6.1 on your television would then normally be set for a standard 16:9 sizing and correctly formatted 4.3 programs will appear correctly on screen in a 4:3 format (full screen vertically, pillar bar sides horizontally). This is the process for all of the Denver HD television stations. Notice of all of the commercials you see that are in 4:3 even though the station OTA ATSC stream is still set to16:9 HD.

The cable and satellite service providers for their legacy 4:3 signal feeds, if any are left, will typically program their equipment for 4:3 regardless of the original transmission format and any HD feeds for 16:9. As for all program providers OTA (ABC, CBS, CW, FOX, ION, NBC, PBS, Telefutura, Univision, et al.) even if they are 16:9 (SD or HD), the safe area content should be within a 4:3 aspect ratio area for those many viewers that still only have a 4:3 television. There has never been any expectation that the cable and satellite providers should or would try to "correct" (there is nothing to correct) the variability of program content formatting.

Note that until recently, most local television news reports from the field that were in 16:9 were actually shot and edited in SD (with a safe within 4:3). Whether a program is shot in SD or HD generally has nothing to do with its aspect ratio - that is a separate decision.


And note again, the transmitted aspect ratio of KRMA 6.1 does not vary. It is always 16:9 and presently in SD most of the time. Those are two different settings. Then, the determining factor for the image display from the station end on your television is what the program server delivers to the ATSC coded 16:9 transmission. If it is a 4:3 program not correctly delivered from the server in a 4:3 format, then it will be incorrectly displayed. But again, that has nothing directly to do with the 16:9 transmission format.

I am thankful that most of the 4:3 programming I have seen in recent months on KRMA 6.1 has been correctly displayed with pillar bars when viewed on my 16:9 televisions. Yes, recently, there have been some new format issues. But I can live with an occasional problem until their HD systems are fully implemented in a few weeks.

I do have a question. It was mentioned that KRMA 6.1 is transmitting "incorrect data packet information". I am curious what that would be. I am aware of an incorrect setting on 6.2 for the "ATSC AC3 audio Descriptor" ISO639 language which should be "spa" on ES PID 0x0044 along with a missing descriptor.

To clarify on the KRMA 6.1 encoding, the ATSC digital stream for 6.1 is coded 16:9 all of the time regardless of whether the program is originated from the server in 16:9 or 4:3. The image size setting for 6.1 on your television would then normally be set for a standard 16:9 sizing and correctly formatted 4.3 programs will appear correctly on screen in a 4:3 format (full screen vertically, pillar bar sides horizontally). This is the process for all of the Denver HD television stations. Notice of all of the commercials you see that are in 4:3 even though the station OTA ATSC stream is still set to16:9 HD.

And note again, the transmitted aspect ratio of KRMA 6.1 does not vary. It is always 16:9 and presently in SD most of the time. Those are two different settings. Then, the determining factor for the image display from the station end on your television is what the program server delivers to the ATSC coded 16:9 transmission. If it is a 4:3 program not correctly delivered from the server in a 4:3 format, then it will be incorrectly displayed. But again, that has nothing directly to do with the 16:9 transmission format.

I do have a question. It was mentioned that KRMA 6.1 is transmitting "incorrect data packet information". I am curious what that would be. I am aware of an incorrect setting on 6.2 for the "ATSC AC3 audio Descriptor" ISO639 language which should be "spa" on ES PID 0x0044 along with a missing descriptor.

Your first paragraph describes what happens to all of the metro-Denver OTA DTV stations except KRMA's channel 6.1. As I've tried to communicate previously, regardless of what KRMA 6.1 is trying to broadcast, something in their signal is causing the programming's aspect ratio to be interpreted differently by different ATSC HDTV tuners (in my case all latter generation tuners, but different brands and generations). That's the station's problem, not the ATSC tuners, and it only happens with KRMA 6.1. So no matter how much you attempt to defend their performance, they have a problem and they need to acknowledge it and fix it.

And stop bashing the TV service providers. This is the Denver OTA thread. If you have a problem with Comcast, Dish, or DirecTV's handling of KRMA's programming, take it up in one of those threads.

Does anyone here use closed captioning for channel 6? I find it usless as half of the captions are missing..

GOOD NEWS ON KRMA HD – See end of post
_____________________________

CEB II, I'm not bashing any service providers, just stating observations and facts. And as I have noted before, I'm not defending KRMA when there is a problem, just trying to explain what they are dealing with right now. They have to deal with the reality of today, not what the legacy problems of recent times have been. Present management realizes some not so good decisions were made in prior years which probably has something to do with most of the management being relatively new.

What I'm really trying to communicate is that aspect ratio format problems need to be analyzed from a total system perspective, i.e., with problems possibly occurring anywhere from the program server forward all the way to viewer's television settings. Many viewers watch both OTA and service from other providers and they see differences between the two. I personally like to understand why. The other service providers have been known to create problems even when they receive a correctly formatted OTA signal from KRMA.

During the analog to digital transition days, I tested six different brands of DTV digital to analog converter boxes (DTVCB) and found different results with screen sizing. The screen image formats from the various DTVCB displays were inconsistent on how they would display on the same TV, again evidence that this is a system problem. As all of us know and feel, these problems frustrate viewers.

I volunteered as a broadcast engineer (retired) resource to help viewers having problems at seven of the Denver/Ft. Collins/Greeley area FCC DTV walk-in help centers prior and after the DTV transitions and all of the call-in help centers sponsored by the Colorado Broadcasters Association, et al., (which were operated out of the RMPBS/KRMA studios in Denver using their phone banks), at KMGH(7) for three weeks on and immediately after they transitioned to full power DTV on April 16, 2009, at RMPBS/KTSC(8-Colorado Springs) on the analog turn-off date on May 26, 2009, and at KWGN(2)/KDVR(31) through the FCC on the KWGN/KDVR transition on June 12, 2009. I have literally talked through DTV problems including aspect ratio problems with well over 3,000 mostly OTA viewers and I have a very good sense of the problems that viewers are experiencing with aspect ratio issues related to DTV/HDTV.

As I mentioned before, some TV's have an automatic width setting. My less than 6 months old high end Sony HDTV has an "Auto Wide" setting under the Screen Menu. I leave it set to off and I don't have format problems on KRMA (or any other station) unless that station is feeding a program format incorrectly. My other DTV/HDTVs exhibit the same exact pattern. As I mentioned before, could part of your Sony TV's problem be that setting (if your Sony TV has that setting)?

KRMA has addressed the aspect ratio format issues in their Tech Talk blogs on their web site at http://www.rmpbs.org. They admit the problems and are working to update their extensive library of 4:3 programs. Note that the other networks and syndicators are mostly feeding recent programs originally shot in HD leading to a less labor intensive process for HD than RMPBS/KRMA must deal with as so much of their programming derives from archived material.

It's possible KRMA may have some ATSC settings incorrect, but I haven't observed any in their OTA ATSC data streams except what I have previously mentioned in an earlier post.
_____________________________

NOW SOME GOOD NEWS

I spoke with the RMPBS Director of Engineering today and he indicated they are making excellent progress on completing their new HD Master Control systems. So we should all see an HD signal on KRMA 6.1 very soon! Hopefully that will make all of us much happier with the RMPBS/KRMA service.

KRMA has screwed up just about everything involved with the conversion from analog to digital. Those of us who have posted here over the past few years are well aware of the numerous problems, mostly self-afflicted, that KRMA has experienced. It appears KRMA's problems continue at this moment.

I'd suggest, since KRMA may be close but still doesn't have full HD capabilities, that all programming be sent out in 480i, 4x3 aspect ratio, until they do. Let viewers decide whether they want to stretch it to fill their 16x9 screens. That, I believe, would solve the current problems for both OTA viewers and subcription service providers.

Geez :D

Precisely! The cable and DBS service providers have to work with what they get from KRMA, just like those of us using the KRMA OTA DTV signal. Since the feed for channel 6.1 is of varying aspect ratios with often incorrect data packet information, the service providers just try to find a solution that gives them a constant product output. They don't have the time and resources to try to fix the problems and variability of channel 6.1 and it isn't their responsibility in the first place.


They aren't getting the PSIP wrong. They occasionally make mistakes in their aspect ratio conversion. But one thing is certain. I have a Sony HDTV that is similar to yours (W series vs. Z series). Sony can take part of the blame here. These TV's absolutely assume that 480i SD programming is 4:3. They do not look at the PSIP to determine what the aspect ratio really should be.

My workaround on the Sony TV is to enable "Auto Wide". This does the right thing for KRMA OTA 6.1. So far the only bad side effect of enabling "Auto Wide" that I have found is that it can screw up the aspect ratio for a DVD player coming in via the component input (but not always -- I can't remember the details, but it may depend on the DVD format). Since I usually use my BluRay player to play DVD's this isn't a real problem for me. I haven't seen any bad side effects when viewing other OTA stations or HDMI sources.

Frankly, when they get the aspect ratio right, which is actually most of the time, their 16x9 SD is the highest quality SD programming in the Denver area. That may not be saying much, considering the SD competition, but it is quite good.

I think LCG is starting to take down the KCNC tower. It looked they they were lifting a jib pole up the tower. (At least that is what I think I saw from my house) I'll report more later when I drive by.

RMPBS is scheduled to sign off Friday night 10:30 to complete the SD-to-HD house router conversion. An actual signoff spot will run at that time, as well as a parallel spot when the network signs on.

This is one part of the SD-to-HD house conversion. There is still only enough programming server space to hold less than 1 days amount of HD programming. Programs will continue to be saved in SD and upconverted from the SD servers to an HD formatted transmission stream for a while yet.

It's still possible that certain programs will be passed through in HD if they don't have to be kept for more than a couple of hours (for example, perhaps a time-delay of the east coast Newshour feed).

It's hoped that transmitting an HD-formatted signal will address most of the formatting issues which arise from transmission.


Comments, observations and opinions are my own and do not necessarily reflect the opinions or positions of any of my employers, nor will predictions necessarily result in fact.

Just wanted to thank you for posting some info about the upgrade process at KRMA. I hope you can occasionally post some "unofficial" updates as there seems no other way to find out how things are going.

Had a question I hoped you may be able to shed some light on. For the past two Fridays, "Need to Know" has been broadcast (I'm talking OTA on 6.1) in an odd format. It appears that the show was shot in a 16x9 format, cropped at the sides to fit 4x3 (losing picture at the sides) and then broadcast stretched to 16x9 again.

Of course I can adjust the TV to set the picture to 4x3 and a correct aspect ratio, but there is still information missing at the sides of the image.

If this is indeed what's happening, why? It seems a rather odd way of treating the image of a new show and if it's necessary to make it fit 4x3, it would be better to letterbox the image. At least that way the viewer could see the entire picture.

Thanks again.

Just to note that tonight "Need to Know" was broadcast in full 16x9 format without any cropping or stretch. Thanks

I was watching Wild America this morning on KWHD 53-1, and they ran a commercial stating that they will be converting 53-1 to a spanish station on June 1st. It sounds like they will continue to run their current programming, or at least some of it, on 53-2.

If you have any recurring recordings scheduled for 53-1, it would probably be a good idea to go ahead and change them to 53-2 now.

Funny how these digital signals work. I live near Wadsworth and Chatfield and have never had a wiff of 53-1, but get the LCG channels great. My daughter lives near Bowles and C470 and get 53-1&2 great but can't get the LCG channels to lock.

I even pointed an outdoor roof mounted UHF yaga towards Castle Rock and no hint of a signal.

Funny how these digital signals work. I live near Wadsworth and Chatfield and have never had a wiff of 53-1, but get the LCG channels great. My daughter lives near Bowles and C470 and get 53-1&2 great but can't get the LCG channels to lock.

I even pointed an outdoor roof mounted UHF yaga towards Castle Rock and no hint of a signal.
I get KWHD quite well from Louisville with an attic mounted antenna, equipped with a CM7777 preamp and pointed generally to the south. My target is Lookout Mountain, but from where I am, KWHD is not that far off angle.

According to their FCC filings
The Antenna Location Coordinates (NAD 27) are:
Latitude: Degrees 39 Minutes 25 Seconds 57 North
Longitude: Degrees 104 Minutes 39 Seconds 18 West

There is a tower visible at that location in the satellite view of Google maps. Just estimating distances on the maps, the tower appears to be about 2 miles north of Ponderosa Park which seems to put it over 10 miles east of Castle Rock. At my distance, the angle between Ponderosa Park and Castle Rock(or Lookout Moutian for that matter) is not that great, but it would be quite a bit more significant for a southern location.

I was watching Wild America this morning on KWHD 53-1, and they ran a commercial stating that they will be converting 53-1 to a spanish station on June 1st. It sounds like they will continue to run their current programming, or at least some of it, on 53-2.

If you have any recurring recordings scheduled for 53-1, it would probably be a good idea to go ahead and change them to 53-2 now.

LeSea broadcasting sold KWHD to Estrella in return for a long term lease on 53-2 and $6.2 million in cash. They are using the extra funds to upgrade there LP transmitters to digital in other parts of the country. (i.e. Colorado Springs) That deal makes sense since they are only running a SD signal anyway.

Estrella TV, not Estrada. :)

- Trip

On Monday I noticed audio issues on KRMA that were not there on Friday, before the UPGRADE.

Although they all detect the existence of 6-5(The Reading Channel), none of my tuners provide any audio out when tuned to that sub-channel.

When tuned to 6-3 my Philips 42PF7320 and Vizio VX32L TVs provide Create Audio and Video, by default. If I go into the menu on the Philips, there are 2 ENGLISH audio options. When I select the second one, I hear the Reading channel audio. On the Vizio, I can use the MTS button to cycle between 1/2 ENGLISH (Create) and 2/2 ENGLISH (Reading).

My DVDR3575 and DVDR3576 Philips DVD recorders provide the Reading channel Audio and Create Video when tuned to 6-3. I have not found any way to get them to decode the Create audio. They only list a single ENGLISH audio entry on 6-3. FYI: If I tune to 6-1, I can use the AUDIO button to cycle between 1/2 ENGLISH STEREO (Normal audio) and 2/2 ENGLISH (No sound). All my tuners seem to handle 6-1 the same, and default to the active audio feed.

This afternoon, I talked to a very sympathetic Viewer Services agent, who informed me that she gets the Reading audio on 6-3 on her Sylvania TV and has found no way to get the Create audio. She said Engineering is aware of the issue, but they had not identified the problem. I sensed that they may not understand the issue very well.

I presume they have some sort of error in the tables of their PSIP generator that is causing the Reading audio to be assigned to a second 6-3 channel instead of to 6-5 where it belongs. I also suspect that the entries for the 2 audio channels on 6-3 do not completely follow the ATSC standard, causing some tuners to barf. I presume that nobody is getting the Reading audio on 6-5.

I wonder how many people are unable to get the Create audio on 6-3. It may only be a single manufacturer that cannot handle the 6-3 audio problem they have, since my DVDRs were built by Funaii, which currently controls the Magnavox, Philips, and Sylvania TV brand names.

My DVDR3575 and DVDR3576 Philips DVD recorders provide the Reading channel Audio and Create Video when tuned to 6-3. I have not found any way to get them to decode the Create audio. They only list a single ENGLISH audio entry on 6-3. FYI: If I tune to 6-1, I can use the AUDIO button to cycle between 1/2 ENGLISH STEREO (Normal audio) and 2/2 ENGLISH (No sound). All my tuners seem to handle 6-1 the same, and default to the active audio feed.

Try the same test for your DVRs on 59-2 which appears to be the only other OTA station running MTS on a virtual sub-channel higher than the base X-1. Their alternate audio channel on 59-2 is in Spanish when available (dual language programming), otherwise English. Channels 2, 4, 22, & 31, in addition to 6.1, are running MTS on their base X-1 sub-channel.

Having analyzed the KRMA OTA PSIP data extensively, I 'm not seeing any coding problems. Reviewing the ATSC PID data sizes, it appears the DD AC3 coding is flowing on 6-5 (ES PID 0x0074) and shows to be recognized as such on my HDTVs ("Audio Only" on screen display). Realizing that the major change by KRMA was a complete facility cut over Friday night from a SD to HD routing system for all signal flows (video, multiple channel audio, metadata, captioning, EPG, etc.), it would appear to me that audio is not making into the ATSC encoder for 6-5's OTA audio.

Try the same test for your DVRs on 59-2 which appears to be the only other OTA station running MTS on a virtual sub-channel higher than the base X-1. Their alternate audio channel on 59-2 is in Spanish when available (dual language programming), otherwise English. Channels 2, 4, 22, & 31, in addition to 6.1, are running MTS on their base X-1 sub-channel.

Having analyzed the KRMA OTA PSIP data extensively, I 'm not seeing any coding problems. Reviewing the ATSC PID data sizes, it appears the DD AC3 coding is flowing on 6-5 (ES PID 0x0074) and shows to be recognized as such on my HDTVs ("Audio Only" on screen display). Realizing that the major change by KRMA was a complete facility cut over Friday night from a SD to HD routing system for all signal flows (video, multiple channel audio, metadata, captioning, EPG, etc.), it would appear to me that audio is not making into the ATSC encoder for 6-5's OTA audio.

I tuned my DVDR3576 to 59-2. When I hit the INFO button, it displayed ENGLISH 1/2. The Audio was in English. When I pressed the AUDIO button, it displayed ENGLISH 2/2 and the Audio switched to Spanish. By the way, both 1/2 and 2/2 really did say ENGLISH, although 1 was ENGLISH and 2 was SPANISH. Repeated pressing of the AUDIO button toggled the Audio and display. It appears that the DVDR3576 has no issues with 59-2.

When I tune 6-3 and hit INFO, it just displays ENGLISH. No 1/2 or 2/2 is with the language text to indicate a choice exists.

While I was typing this, I got a call from Linda of Viewer Services at Rocky Mountain PBS. She said that they have tracked it down to a software problem, which the vendor acknowledges, and they hope to have corrected software by Tuesday of next week.

As of earlier today, RMPBS/KRMA 6 has changed several things in their ATSC coding and PSIP data. There are no longer alternate audio channels on 6.1 & 6.3. No audio encoding on 6.5 and no PSIP data on 6.5.

As of earlier today, RMPBS/KRMA 6 has changed several things in their ATSC coding and PSIP data. There are no longer alternate audio channels on 6.1 & 6.3. No audio encoding on 6.5 and no PSIP data on 6.5.
When I saw your post, I presumed that they made changes, they could implement immediately, to the Audio information to minimize the impact on their viewers of the software bug, until they received an update.

What they have done seems to have solved my problems. I now receive the desired audio on 6-1 and 6-3 with the tuners I have checked. My DVDR3576 now gets the Create audio when tuned to 6-3, but something else has happened. When I press INFO, it shows 1/2 ENGLISH instead of just ENGLISH and when I press the AUDIO button it toggles to 2/2 ENGLISH where there is no sound I can hear. It does think there is a 6-5 sub-channel, but it just provides a silent Blue Screen. I haven't checked my Vizio TV yet, but I have no reason to expect an adverse impact.

For me personally, I could live nicely with the current situation. I only hope they are able to restore the Reader service for the Visually Impaired who have come to depend on it.

[QUOTE=kenavs;18698511]What they have done seems to have solved my problems. I now receive the desired audio on 6-1 and 6-3 with the tuners I have checked. My DVDR3576 now gets the Create audio when tuned to 6-3, but something else has happened. When I press INFO, it shows 1/2 ENGLISH instead of just ENGLISH and when I press the AUDIO button it toggles to 2/2 ENGLISH where there is no sound I can hear. It does think there is a 6-5 sub-channel, but it just provides a silent Blue Screen. I haven't checked my Vizio TV yet, but I have no reason to expect an adverse impact.[QUOTE]

A rescan of each receiving device will most likely clear the PSIP memories of your devices. Thus, on each receiving device, after rescan, on 6-1 & 6-3, there should only be one audio channel showing in English. On 6.2, only one audio should show and it should be read out as Spanish. And 6-5 may be gone - it depends on how some PSIP data is interpreted by the receiving device (there is still some PSIP data for 6-5, but no ATSC coding for 6-5).

When RMPBS/KRMA gets the software/hardware problems resolved (it's more in multiple levels of other equipment than in the PSIP encoders), 6.1 will be in fulltime Dolby Digital AC3 5.1 audio (and PSIP will be recoded again). Their situation right now is very similar to if one is having trouble with the software/hardware HDMI connections and you have to reroute audio/video through traditional connections till you get HDMI working correctly again.

Note, it's not just KRMA's four audio/video channels they are dealing with. The problems are affecting all of their individual 13 audio/video channel feeds throughout the state.

...
A rescan of each receiving device will most likely clear the PSIP memories of your devices.
...
I don't want to get too far off topic, but I probably will.
The Philips DVDR3576 appears to be unusual. To all appearances, a full scan only seems to create a mapping of the Virtual Major Channel numbers to the associated Physical Channel Number(s). I don't think it stores any information about the minor channel numbers. Each time I tune to a Virtual channel number, it seems to reacquire the sub-channel information from the Physical channel it was sent to. I have never seen anything official to prove it works this way, but this is consistent with my observations and the credible posts in the forums that discuss this family of DVDRs.
The other thing is that the DVDR3576 can tune by Physical channel numbers, unless there is a conflicting Virtual channel number. I can tune to 6-3 by entering 6-3 or 18-3. The tuner is Virtual dominant, so that if it logged KDEO(Virtual 23, Physical 50) it would not be able to tune KCDO(Virtual 3, Physical 23) by entering 23. It could only tune KCDO by tuning 3, which would have had to have been mapped by a full scan or a manual channel add that was done when KDEO was not in its tables. For me, this last statement is just theoretical, since I haven't successfully tuned KDEO since it moved from Physical 23 to Physical 50, and I rarely receive KCDO. I do occasionally look for KDEO by tuning 50, which should get me there, if it could detect a signal, since I do not have KCEC(Virtual 50, Physical 51) in my tables.
Based on posts from the Twin Cities, the DVDR3576 has trouble with the situation where a single Virtual Channel is assigned to multiple Physical channels. According to posts, the PBS affiliates have two UHF transmitters that use Channel 2 as their Virtual Channel number, for marketing reasons. After a full scan, if the tuner detects both, a user can tune Channel 2, and step through all the sub-channels with the channel up button, but they will be out of sequence. I believe this is because the lower sub-channel numbers belong to the transmitter with the higher UHF channel. Scheduled recording by Virtual Major-Minor number has problems. It sounds like it only looks for the requested Minor Channel at the first Physical Channel associated with the Virtual Major Channel number, or it may give up if it detects higher Minor Channel numbers than it is looking for at the Physical Channel it is tuned to. I believe the only work-around is to delete the Virtual Major from the tables and schedule all recording by using Physical Major-Minor numbers. This makes it cumbersome to use the unit as an STB, since channel up/down cannot be used to tune the PBS channels at all.
I do apologize for all the gory details that would only be of interest to a few Denver area users of the Philips DVDR3575, Philips DVDR3576, or Magnavox 2160 which seem to share similar tuners and programming.

Does anyone know for sure if KWGN-DT ever moved their digital broadcast antenna to the top of their tower (it was mounted lower on their tower for years prior to the final transition) or put a new DTV broadcast antenna on the top of their tower? For some time there were notices run on the station saying final changes for the digital transition would be done by some future date (last one I remember was around the first of this year). However, I've never seen any change in the signal meter readings on any of my DTV tuners (i.e., they are still among the lowest level signals I get from the major stations). OTOH, their sister station, KDVR, has had considerable signal changes since last year's DTV transition, so I'm guessing that their planned antenna changes were implemented.

They aren't getting the PSIP wrong. They occasionally make mistakes in their aspect ratio conversion. But one thing is certain. I have a Sony HDTV that is similar to yours (W series vs. Z series). Sony can take part of the blame here. These TV's absolutely assume that 480i SD programming is 4:3. They do not look at the PSIP to determine what the aspect ratio really should be.

My workaround on the Sony TV is to enable "Auto Wide". This does the right thing for KRMA OTA 6.1. So far the only bad side effect of enabling "Auto Wide" that I have found is that it can screw up the aspect ratio for a DVD player coming in via the component input (but not always -- I can't remember the details, but it may depend on the DVD format). Since I usually use my BluRay player to play DVD's this isn't a real problem for me. I haven't seen any bad side effects when viewing other OTA stations or HDMI sources.

Frankly, when they get the aspect ratio right, which is actually most of the time, their 16x9 SD is the highest quality SD programming in the Denver area. That may not be saying much, considering the SD competition, but it is quite good.

Unfortunately I can't remember what my Sony "Z" was reading as the resolution out of channel 6.1 a couple of weeks ago and prior. I know it was reading the input as 16X9 for aspect ratio and I thought the channel info listed it as 1080i, but I really don't remember.

Anyway, whatever KRMA has changed in the past two weeks seems to have finally fixed the aspect ratio problem, at least for the shows I've checked tonight. I'll continue to check them out for various shows over the weekend.

Then again, I just got a software update to the Sony "Z" yesterday and I know it made some changes to the OTA tuner's use and display of channel and program information. So both of the sources of variables in the display of channel 6.1 video on my "Z" with its on-board OTA tuner have had changes and now the problem seems to be corrected.

Anyway, whatever KRMA has changed in the past two weeks seems to have finally fixed the aspect ratio problem, at least for the shows I've checked tonight. I'll continue to check them out for various shows over the weekend.


The change is that they went from 16x9 480i SD to upconverted 1080i all of the time. They still don't have the storage capacity to store programming in HD with a few exceptions, so they are storing everything in SD and then upconverting. This fixes the problem for the Sony TV's since it is now seeing everything as 1080i.

This morning conditions were good for DTV DX reception. In a period of about 3 hours, from about 5 AM to 8 AM, I got 4 long distance stations: 1) KRNE from Merriman, NE, 2) KLNE from Lexington, NE, 3) KLBY from Colby, KS and 4) KBSL from Goodland, KS.

This morning conditions were good for DTV DX reception. In a period of about 3 hours, from about 5 AM to 8 AM, I got 4 long distance stations: 1) KRNE from Merriman, NE, 2) KLNE from Lexington, NE, 3) KLBY from Colby, KS and 4) KBSL from Goodland, KS.

I'm so jealous.

Does anyone know for sure if KWGN-DT ever moved their digital broadcast antenna to the top of their tower (it was mounted lower on their tower for years prior to the final transition) or put a new DTV broadcast antenna on the top of their tower? For some time there were notices run on the station saying final changes for the digital transition would be done by some future date (last one I remember was around the first of this year). However, I've never seen any change in the signal meter readings on any of my DTV tuners (i.e., they are still among the lowest level signals I get from the major stations). OTOH, their sister station, KDVR, has had considerable signal changes since last year's DTV transition, so I'm guessing that their planned antenna changes were implemented.

KWGN 2 filed their FCC Form 302-DTV for their license for their completed top mount antenna for their RF34 digital service on 12/09/2009.

The KCNC tower is about 1/2 down, if anyone noticed.

I wonder if Deb noticed how much better the mountain looks already. :)

I would have thought she'd have moved to Boca Del Vista by now. :p

KRMA came back on the air this morning with DD5.1 enabled. They must have also fixed all of the 6.x sub-channel audio.

It will be nice to hear a musical performance in Dolby Digital 5.1. Maybe next month in the small break between pledge drives.

It will be nice to hear a musical performance in Dolby Digital 5.1. Maybe next month in the small break between pledge drives.


Now, now. Even during the pledge drives you can get to hear Lawrence Welk in surround. What could be better?

Ion (KPXC) Added five subchannels for about 2 hours today (59.5 - 59.9). The channel identification was AirTV1 through AirTV5. Anyone have any idea what that may be? I guess it's possible it might be a mistake, since they removed them after 2 hours.

I wasn't home at the time, so I didn't get a chance to tune in to see what was being broadcast (if anything).

Darn! Those have showed up and then disappeared on ION stations in a few locations with no word as to what they are.

- Trip

I happened to do a rescan around noontime on one of my TVs and found KPXC 59-5 thru 59-9 in addition to their usual 59-1 thru 59-3. The new channels were AirTV 1 thru 5. In the PSIP data, each of the channels had H.264 video (MPEG-4) averaging around 1 Mbps and AAC audio (MPEG-2) averaging around 55 Kbps in the ATSC stream for each channel.

It appears this was testing for the implementation of Mobile Television (M/H for Mobile/Handheld) of which ION is a major supporter.

M/H does not show up on standard receivers; they're fully incapable of receiving it as it's set up totally differently.

This has to have been something else. What, I don't know.

- Trip

M/H does not show up on standard receivers; they're fully incapable of receiving it as it's set up totally differently.

This has to have been something else. What, I don't know.

- Trip

To clarify, there wasn't any video or audio displaying on screen. But I could read the PSIP data and the ATSC stream PID information as analyzed in TS Reader. And, the PSIP information delivered an on screen display of the channel name (AirTV 1, etc.) as verified by two of us.

The present terrestrial ATSC DTV standard is based on MPEG-2 video and DD AC3 audio and existing receivers would not decode the H.264 video & AAC audio used in ATSC-M/H. One must have an ATSC-M/H receiver to receive M/H, but it is transmitted on the existing DTV RF signals. ION began their first M/H broadcasts last year in New York City and Washington, D.C. as noted below:
http://www.ionpress.com/article.php?secID=0&indID=164

I do believe we saw a test of ATSC-M/H branded as AirTV prior to its implementation in the Denver DMA.

To clarify, there wasn't any video or audio displaying on screen. But I could read the PSIP data and the ATSC stream PID information as analyzed in TS Reader. And, the PSIP information delivered an on screen display of the channel name (AirTV 1, etc.) as verified by two of us.

The present terrestrial ATSC DTV standard is based on MPEG-2 video and DD AC3 audio and existing receivers would not decode the H.264 video & AAC audio used in ATSC-M/H. One must have an ATSC-M/H receiver to receive M/H, but it is transmitted on the existing DTV RF signals. ION began their first M/H broadcasts last year in New York City and Washington, D.C. as noted below:
http://www.ionpress.com/article.php?secID=0&indID=164


M/H programming is transmitted within the DTV RF signal, but all of the programming (including multiple M/H channels) is contained within one pid, including all the information regarding that programming. It does not make entries in the PAT, PMT or TVCT tables, i.e. it is completely invisible to existing DTV receivers. This was not programming that conformed to the M/H standard. It may have been A/53 enhanced programming (It would have been interesting to see if there were any PAT-E packets on pid 0x1ff7), but I thought most interest in those alternatives were dropped when the M/H standard was adopted.

I do believe we saw a test of ATSC-M/H branded as AirTV prior to its implementation in the Denver DMA.
Yes, KPXC did participate in early testing of M/H standards. I thought that was after the two competing standards were merged into what was eventually passed as the new M/H standard. But perhaps it was earlier, in which case this may have just been a mistake, i.e. someone may have enabled some of the test equipment and this was a broadcast of M/H programming conforming to one of the early competing standards that are now obsolete. But that doesn't make sense in light of the new information that Trip has given us, i.e. this is not an isolated incident. So, perhaps some of the ION stations that participated in the original M/H trials are now getting ready to start transmitting M/H programming for real now, and this was just a test of some of the equipment before it is updated/replaced in order to support the new M/H standard (A/153). Obviously this is all speculation based on limited data.

While the Mobile DTV (MDTV) signals are encapsulated and delivered via IP in the ATSC stream, my sense is that what we saw on KPXC 59 on Friday was a forward looking event, not a relic from past experimentation.

As I pondered this some more, three possibilities come to mind.

First, and this is a stretch, for testing purposes for MDTV, ION created PSIP information in the traditional ATSC DTV format to “identify” an equivalent channel from a existing or non-existing MDTV stream. The AirTV channels data structure types and sizes very closely matched the planned structure for MDTV and with five channels, exceeded the maximum number of MDTV channels (typically planned with 2-4 MDTV channels) with an existing 1 HD and 2 SD DTV structure. Unfortunately I didn’t have a chance to closely examine the ATSC PIDs before the PSIP data disappeared. And I didn’t find any additional ATSC PIDs beyond what is needed for DTV only after the PSIP data returned to “normal”.

Second, and this is pure speculation as I can’t find anything in a brief online search that ties an AirTV with ION, could this be a test for a future encrypted proprietary service within DTV from ION utilizing H.264 (MPEG-4 AVC) video and AAC audio in the event MDTV fails as a business and/or technical model? As we know, MPEG-4 is a more efficient codec and requires less bandwidth to deliver the same resolution compared to MPEG-2 used in DTV.

Third, I briefly considered that this might be an OTA delivery platform for 3D but the five channel structuring would not make sense.

Another thought came to mind on the short-lived KPXC 59 AirTV “test” on Friday (6/4/2010). Since there is a big push for substantial nationwide coverage of Mobile DTV (MDTV) in 2010 along with the associated retail products, and ION is a major player supporting this delivery medium and they own and/or program 60 full-power transmitters around the country, there is a possibility AirTV is a test procedure.

Perhaps what was seen Friday on KPXC 59 was a test procedure of the existing ATSC DTV transmitter thru OTA reception process using a data load representing a pseudo MDTV model to establish baseline performance of the delivery system PRIOR TO the replacement of the DTV exciter with a MDTV exciter (which handles both DTV & MDTV). This possibility might explain the other ION station events that Trip in VA mentioned.

It is interesting to note that not only was the PSIP data changed and then changed back, but that the ATSC encoding was also changed and then changed back. I wonder if the changes were done locally in Denver or remotely from their NOC in Clearwater, FL.


Two articles that may be of interest:

Mobile DTV on trial in Washington, D.C.
http://broadcastengineering.com/mobile_tv/mobile-dtv-trial-washington-dc-20100601/

Spain ends terrestrial mobile TV service
http://broadcastengineering.com/mobile_tv/spain-ends-terrestrial-mobile-tv-service-20100601/

Well KUSA's bandwidth robbing of 9-1 was really apparent this morning during the French Open Women's Tennis Final. The bit rate couldn't keep up with the speed of the women's serving motion so it ended up looking blocky. I can only guess how bad this blockiness is going to be in the men's final, since they serve even faster. I'm sure that it is contractual commitments with NBC that keep KUSA from making the obvious and sensible switch of their two sub-channels to KTVD, Channel 20. Channel 20 seldom if ever has any live HD and little true HD content, plus nobody is watching anyway. Such a move would certainly improve the quality of the HD experience on KUSA, Channel 9-1 for all of us.

Sigh!

I'm sure that it is contractual commitments with NBC that keep KUSA from making the obvious and sensible switch of their two sub-channels to KTVD, Channel 20.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but while KUSA is probably committed to carrying NBCU Sports on 9-3, it seems rather doubtful that a similar obligation exists for the weather subchannel. Absent a contract, there would be no impediment to moving 9-2's content to a channel 20-2. Please recall, too, that AccuWeather was the competitor that buried NBC's national Weather Plus feed. Reducing KUSA's data load to one subchannel might not be a cure-all, but it would certainly help. With all the co-branding seen on KTVD these days, I doubt switching 9News WeatherPlus to 20-2 would cause a great deal of confusion.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but while KUSA is probably committed to carrying NBCU Sports on 9-3, it seems rather doubtful that a similar obligation exists for the weather subchannel. Absent a contract, there would be no impediment to moving 9-2's content to a channel 20-2. Please recall, too, that AccuWeather was the competitor that buried NBC's national Weather Plus feed. Reducing KUSA's data load to one subchannel might not be a cure-all, but it would certainly help. With all the co-branding seen on KTVD these days, I doubt switching 9News WeatherPlus to 20-2 would cause a great deal of confusion.

Actually, there is nothing technical that prevents KUSA from moving the weather channel over to KTVD's data stream and still having the channel number be 9-2. That's one of the advantages of virtual channel numbers. I don't think there is any FCC regulation against this. I know that during the transition there were some cities where one station handled the DTV transition channels for more than one broadcaster while each broadcaster constructed their post transition facilities.

Actually, there is nothing technical that prevents KUSA from moving the weather channel over to KTVD's data stream and still having the channel number be 9-2. ... during the transition there were some cities where one station handled the DTV transition channels for more than one broadcaster while each broadcaster constructed their post transition facilities.
There may be no technical barrier, but we're unlikely to see anything like it over the air anytime soon. FCC Chairman Julius Genachowski's push to consolidate several several stations' broadcasts on one signal so as to free up more TV spectrum for 4G wireless services represents one big, fat political impediment. In an era when the spectrum they occupy is under increasing pressure despite the previous loss of 32 channels, it's a safe bet that broadcasters and the NAB are loath to provide further demonstrations of just how easily this may be accomplished.

Actually, there is nothing technical that prevents KUSA from moving the weather channel over to KTVD's data stream and still having the channel number be 9-2. That's one of the advantages of virtual channel numbers. I don't think there is any FCC regulation against this. I know that during the transition there were some cities where one station handled the DTV transition channels for more than one broadcaster while each broadcaster constructed their post transition facilities.
PLEASE! PLEASE! PLEASE! Don't give them a very bad idea!

If they do that, some tuners will not be able to handle it.

The Philips DVDR3575, Philips DVDR3576, and Magnavox 2160 HDD/DVD recorder tuners struggle when the same virtual channel is shared by 2 physical channels. That has been demonstrated in the Twin Cities where the 2 PBS transmitters both use virtual channel 2, although neither is on that physical channel.

The tuners in these recorders do not seem to store any sub-channel information. Based on the Twin Cities experience, I think the scan would find 2 physical channels associated with Virtual 9. When used as a tuner or STB, it would probably step up from 7-1 to 7-27 to 9-1 to 9-3 to 9-2, but, based on reports from the Twin Cities, it can only do scheduled recordings of the sub-channels on the lower physical channel.
I have not seen any reports how they would react to the 2 virtual channels that would also be on one physical channel, but I would expect issues.

While your suggestion may be technically in compliance with the ATSC standard, it would expose any tuners that do not handle the situation the way the station support team thinks all tuners should handle it.

Notice that the tuners in these units cannot skip individual sub-channels, which is why Channel Up finds 7-1 and 7-27. Notice also that the KMGH engineers used 7-1 and 7-27, rather than the potentially more problematic 7-1 and 27-1 or 7-1 and 27-2. I think this was solid defensive engineering on their parts. I suspect that virtually all tuners handle the KMGH sub-channels exactly as they would expect them to.

Cable companies do seem to like to do clever things in their sub-channel mappings, and cause nightmares for the QAM tuners in these recorders.

I believe that to play unnecessary games using the virtual channel capabilities is just inviting problems for viewers, and would serve no useful purpose.

If the weather was moved to the KTVD data stream, it would be much less likely to cause problems for some of their viewers if they assigned it sub-channel 20-2, or 20-n.

I don't think KUSA is going to put either 9-2 or 9-3 on KTVD. They want viewers to push the channel up button once or twice rather than pushing it numerous times to get to 20 or relying on viewers to enter 20-2 or 20-3. The mistake NBC and others made was to go with 1080i instead of 720p IMO. To me, 720p looks the same as 1080i. The subchannels would have less effect on 720p HD video, but changing to 720p isn't going to happen either.

I was flipping thru the OTA channels tonight and noticed a couple of things. Channel 23-1 was OK but 23-2 was full of macro blocking and was unwatchable. 23-3 had audio much louder than 23-1 and 23-2, while 23-4 had audio that would drop in and out. I guess 23-2 is bit-starved? Does anyone from the station monitor their signal?

On 59-1, an episode of Criminal Minds was being shown. It was in 16x9 format but I couldn't tell if it was truly HD or 480i 4x3 upscaled to 16x9. Anyone know?