David, just stick a pair of rabbit ears on your receiver and see what you get. As close as you are, you might be surprised that (literally!) a pair of rabbit ears may get you some of the stations. I did that here in Centennial (I look right into downtown) and with the rabbit ears I could get 9 and 4...I got the much maligned silver surfer and I get all the stations, including those on Lookout. Just stick something cheap on there and that will tell you how much antenna you will need. Don't spend any money till you give something a try.

Tim

I ran a quick test hooking up a Silver Sensor to my EyeTV Hybrid hooked up to my MacBook and received the following results:

signal signal
quality strength
KDVR-DT 31.1 FOX 90-100% 50-60%
KBDI-DT 12.1 PBS -- 30-40%
KMGH-DT 7.1 ABC 95-100% 55-60%
KRMA-DT 6.1 PBS -- 35-40%
KUSA-DT 9.1 NBC -- 40%
KCNC-DT 4.1 CBS -- 28-32%

So, as you can see, basically I can only get FOX and ABC in this quick test.

I'm going to bask in the glow of all that high-power RF beamed over Deb Carney's head. Plan (a) is just to put a small indoor antenna on top of the TV, which may be all I need.
Or, strap a 15' Winegard 8200 to Deb's head, for the sake of enhancing the experience. Yup, sounds good to me!
....jc

I'm going to bask in the glow of all that high-power RF beamed over Deb Carney's head.
I think what you meant to say was to "watch Deb Carney bake and glow from all that high-power RF beamed into her head" :D

So, I gather most people here on the forum are using UHF-only antennas? What does everyone plan to do when KMGH and KUSA move back to VHF? Replace your antenna?
I think for the vast majority of people in the Metro Denver/Boulder area a simple pair of rabbit ears will likely work when everyone is at full power. In the old days a pair of rabbit ears often wasn't enough for the weaker stations or UHF as you typically ended up with a lot of multipath ghosting on the screen as well as interference on the UHF Channels from airplanes etc. It often required some 'adjusting' or 'tweaking' each time you changed channels which is why most folks went to a larger roof or attic antenna. With DTV, you won't see those issues if the signal is strong enough to receive with a bit of margin, so I would suspect the a simple pair of rabbit ears or other such set top antennas would be all that is needed. Folks in Longmont, Ft. Collins, and down south toward Castle Rock will likely still need a decent antenna, but pointing should not be anywhere near as critical as it is now. YMMV.

I think for the vast majority of people in the Metro Denver/Boulder area a simple pair of rabbit ears will likely work when everyone is at full power. Last week the News had an article in the Business section whose title implied that rabbit ears would be pretty much useless after the transition to digital. I sent an email response saying about what you did. We'll see if they print it.

Last week the News had an article in the Business section whose title implied that rabbit ears would be pretty much useless after the transition to digital. I sent an email response saying about what you did. We'll see if they print it.
Yea, they probably also said that you'd need one of those fancy dancy new HD antennas.

Then if they were really technically savy, they'd tell everyone that they'd need new HD Coax, HD Connectors, and a new HD Toilet Seat.

Gota Love the 'Experts'.
....jc

Yea, they probably also said that you'd need one of those fancy dancy new HD antennas.

Then if they were really technically savy, they'd tell everyone that they'd need new HD Coax, HD Connectors, and a new HD Toilet Seat.

Gota Love the 'Experts'.
....jcActually, I thought that they did, but I couldn't find mention of the need for ANY antennas in the on-line edition. Maybe they assume that people already have antennas (but if they have rabbit ears, then those are no good... hmmmm).

Jefferson County has released more information about the "special meeting" that is going to be held on Monday. Link (http://jeffco.us/news/news_item_np_T9_R482.htm)


The full text:
Jeffco Commissioners To Make Decision On Lake Cedar Rezoning - Meeting March 12, 2007

The Jefferson County Board of Commissioners has scheduled a special meeting on the issue related to the Lake Cedar towers on Lookout Mountain, which was remanded to the county by the District Court.

It will be held at 9:15 a.m., Monday, March 12, in Hearing Room One of the Jefferson County Administration and Courts Facility at 100 Jefferson County Parkway, Golden.

District Court Judge R. Brooke Jackson had remanded the Lake Cedar Group’s rezoning case to the county on May 23, 2006. He asked the commissioners to affirm or deny the rezoning request. In the remand, the judge wrote that there does not appear to be a need for additional evidence as the record of the case is voluminous and shows that all interested parties for and against the rezoning have had ample opportunity to be heard.

In light of the judge’s opinion, the Board of County Commissioners does not intend to take additional testimony, though the public is welcome to attend the meeting.

The vote on the decision will be taken following brief presentations by the county attorney’s office and the Development & Transportation director.

-Wabisabi

I guess this means that 10 months is now the defacto standard for "all due haste".

The vote on the decision will be taken following brief presentations by the county attorney’s office and the Development & Transportation director.
I guess the vote would be on the question could be summed up by the following:
Resolved, we the Jefferson County BOCC agree to abide by Federal Law as approved by the Congress of these United States entitled "CLARIFYING CERTAIN LAND USE IN JEFFERSON COUNTY, COLORADO".

Vote Yea or Nay!

(Yea! :D )

Of course their lawyers will add a lot of legal mumbo jumbo to the above to make it sound more "official".

Last week the News had an article in the Business section whose title implied that rabbit ears would be pretty much useless after the transition to digital. I sent an email response saying about what you did. We'll see if they print it.
Might need the "rabbit ears" and the additional UHF Loop antenna to do it all. Might be hard pressed to get 32, 34, and 35 with traditional rabbit ears. I know growing up in St. Louis that when Channel 30 went on the air I could not get it without the loop.

Anyone else notice the new all Spanish all the time sub-channel KRMA is broadcasting? Bye-bye full bandwidth PBS...

On the plus side, looks like KDVR got their guide working again.

Yeah, most depressing. My panny plasma tuner really doesn't like whatever they did to the signal. I'm showing a 6-1 6-2 Vme, 18-4,18-6,18-11.......18-19 and a signal strength of 7% when I used to get them at 65%.

Looks like RadioShack has a decent line-up of UHF/VHF combo antennas so I'm leaning towards heading to the local RadioShack down the street and trying one of these out as some of you have recommended. It sounds like most of you think they are fairly good? However, it seems a lot of you recommend giving them a shot but then mention you own other brands, what gives? Anyone actually own a RadioShack antenna here?

It sounds like most of you think they are fairly good?
It's hard to screw up an antenna.

However, it seems a lot of you recommend giving them a shot but then mention you own other brands, what gives?
ChannelMaster & Winegard are a bit higher quality. And, there is a reason that some people call them RatShack.

Anyone actually own a RadioShack antenna here?
I had one that I used as a 'sidearm'. It worked ok, but after a while the elements started to fall off.

But to be honest, you live close enough to where superior performance is not required. A RatShack antenna should work just fine.
....jc

Yeah, most depressing. My panny plasma tuner really doesn't like whatever they did to the signal. I'm showing a 6-1 6-2 Vme, 18-4,18-6,18-11.......18-19 and a signal strength of 7% when I used to get them at 65%.
Wow, U'r right! I just checked my new 20" Sharp. I got:

6.1
6.2
18.2
18.4
18.5
18.6
18.7
18.8

However, I only found stuff on 6.1, 6.2 & 18.2.

PSIP 101 guys. And KRMA flunked.
....jc

Jefferson County has released more information about the "special meeting" that is going to be held on Monday. Link (http://jeffco.us/news/news_item_np_T9_R482.htm)Is it just me? What doesn't the BOCC understand about 4092? It's like they're still in this little, protected world that whatever they say, decide and vote on will magically happen. Sure, they can huff & puff and vote all they want, but the law is the law, and JJ still has to rule on LCG's dismissal of any power they still cling to.

What am I missing?

What am I missing?
Maybe it's the arrogance and the ability to delay. That's all that they really have. They are clinging like a dead spider.
....jc

What am I missing?

I think the BOCC intends to vote NO. That will throw the issue, in their minds, back to JJ. JJ, IMO, will have to rule to revoke the injunction under Federal Law 109-466 (S.4092) and the BOCC can claim they tried to do everything they could but were overruled.

Bottom line is that it really doesn't matter, as we all know, how the BOCC votes. The only reason for this March 12 vote is political posturing. They can't accomplish anything else.

--------------------------------------------------

TPW, you posted an email that you received from KGWN a few days ago that said they were changing over to full power and later you posted that KGWN's signal was back after the change over. There are some posts on the N CO/WY thread from folks in Greeley and Ft. Collins that they can't receive the KGWN signal anymore. Neither can I. Can you check and see if you are now receiving it? It seems "strange" that folks near Cheyenne can't get the signal anymore after an upgrade to full power.

I think the BOCC intends to vote NO.They already voted 'Yes' 2-1 at the last meeting to agree to the old LCGII application, and send that back to LCG. I'm pretty sure, LCG said "No" as they are waiting for JJ. So, outside of them announcing some finalized 'backdoor' agreement with LCG, what are they going to say? We re-approve for the 4th time the LCGII application?

Public Hearing Scheduled for Monday, 3/12/07 at 9:15 a.m.
A public hearing on the issue remanded by the District Court to the County Commissioners has been scheduled. Meeting will be held in Hearing Room 1 at the Administration and Courts Building (Taj Mahal).

C.A.R.E. is requesting as many attend this meeting as possible.
There could be a lot of disappointed people come Monday when they show up only to find out the BOCC does not intend to take additional testimony. Then again maybe they will get the word by monitoring this forum.
Sure the BOCC can once again vote it down then boast to the people that we did evrything in our power to try and stop the tower. This way we are not the bad guy.

We all know that despite the facts, criminal super-spy Congrove will vote #@$% NO! I would expect a yes from McCasky and a tentative yes from Hartman. She is definitely anti-tower but seems to have her head screwed on straight. As Ernie mentioned, this will be the fourth approval, sigh... :(

Joke of the day; How many votes of approval does it require to actually get something approved in JeffCo?

I'm curious as to what the county attorney will present? Maybe just posturing with a face-saving defiant attitude admitting in the end that they are powerless?

As to the Development & Transportation director, I'm not exactly sure what their role is. Is he/she the keeper of the permits? Perhaps just stating that they now hope to "work with LCG in a cooperative atmosphere to maximize the benefit to the citizens of Lookout and greater JeffCo". (IOW, grovel, grovel, grovel ;) )

The real question for me is how long it will take JJ to take any action following Monday? perhaps we should start yet another pool? My guess = 3 months.

TPW, you posted an email that you received from KGWN a few days ago that said they were changing over to full power and later you posted that KGWN's signal was back after the change over. There are some posts on the N CO/WY thread from folks in Greeley and Ft. Collins that they can't receive the KGWN signal anymore. Neither can I. Can you check and see if you are now receiving it? It seems "strange" that folks near Cheyenne can't get the signal anymore after an upgrade to full power.
Last night KCNC was getting flaky, so I switched to KGWN. Dead. No signal strength at all on 5.1 or 5.2. I'll email them again to see what happened. I've got to figure that something went Boom(or Deb was up there :p ).

I just emailed them(KGWN) and received a fairly quick response:
We had another problem with the feed going out to our transmitter. We are repairing it and it should be up and running this morning. Sorry.

There ya go.
....jc

My take on Monday's vote:

The bottom line in the LCGII application is that it is a request for rezoning the land from MR-1 to (I think) Special Use. Even though the rezoning no longer has any bearing on whether or LCG can build their new tower, the rezoning still needs to be addressed by JeffCo -- ReAffirm or Deny. To Deny the rezoning will probably have other implications down the road beyond the new DTV tower, like when the country transitions to QUHDTV in 2059 ;) .

like when the country transitions to QUHDTV in 2059 ;) .
...and Denver transitions to it in 2099 ;)

OK, so here's the latest...I'm taking what you've said and what I've read about the quality of RadioShack. I'd rather pay a little more for better quality if necessary. Also, I've decided that I'd like to go with a UHF/VHF combo (LD). With this in mind I'm down to these items:

1) Channel Master 3679
2) Winegard HD7082P (or maybe HD7084P)

These 2 seem to be fairly highly regarded for a combo unit. Any thoughts on the comparison between these two or something else you think is better for a LD (CEA blue -rated) UHF/VHF combo?

Thanks again,
David

There is a whole sticky topic on OTA antenna topics: The Official AVS Antenna / OTA Reception Topic!

Go here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=381623

Do some searches for various antenna models or you can just skim (!) through all 189 pages! Good luck.

Looks like RadioShack has a decent line-up of UHF/VHF combo antennas so I'm leaning towards heading to the local RadioShack down the street and trying one of these out as some of you have recommended. It sounds like most of you think they are fairly good? However, it seems a lot of you recommend giving them a shot but then mention you own other brands, what gives? Anyone actually own a RadioShack antenna here?

I have 2 of them. I have a 12' combo yagi (VU-120) in the rafters above my garage. This antenna was discontinued for some reason, and I found it for $5.00. This is how I get analog local stations, KDVR-DT, and KWGN-DT. Since my garage is only single story, and is NW of my house, which is NW of Republic Plaza (I'm in Lafayette), this antenna doesn't get any of the RP stations.

To remedy this (without much work), I found a (discontinued) RS Double-Bow Tie UHF antenna. I had to pay $1.25 for this one. This comes with a flat 2-lead cable of about 2 feet. It turns out this flat two-lead can cause lots of signal loss. So I followed directions found on AVSForum, drilled out the lead rivits, and screwend in a balun directly. This has got to be the best indoor UHF antenna I've ever seen (it is not pretty, however). Anyway, I have this sitting on my shelf near my TV pointing kind of towards downtown. I usually get all of the RP stations and 53 (46 DT I believe).

I'd really consider trying an RS combo. If you plan on putting it in an attack, you probably won't ever have to worry about it. If you have to go outside, I still think it would last 10-20 years without too much worry (based on my in-laws experience). The nice thing about RS is if it doesn't work, return it and you've only spent some time and gas $$. But if it works, you get to watch the college BBall games in high-def (you've only got a week until the madness starts). You also might be able to find a discontinued model and get it on the cheap like I did.

Good Luck either way!

For those of you that didn't get it. Here is a copy of an Email from HDTVcolorado.com
Commissioners to Make Decision on Monday



The Jefferson County Board of Commissioners is holding a hearing March 12th to make a decision on the Lookout Mountain Digital TV tower. They have recently announced that they will not take public testimony during the hearing that is scheduled to start at 9:15 am at the Jefferson County Administration Building. (Taj Mahal). As many of our supporters were prepared to attend and testify, we wanted to be sure you were aware of this change.



While there won’t be direct input from the public, the Lake Cedar Group of stations (Channels 4, 7, 9 and 20) would still encourage people to show their support for free over-the-air Digital TV in Jefferson County by attending the hearing. The commissioners need to know that the majority of Jeffco residents want to stop wasting taxpayer dollars fighting the tower that was approved by Congress and the President back in December.


I am planning on going.

Another big story in the Rocky today about our friend. Ahhh, the plot thickens in the 'Congrove Might be Goin' to the Big House' saga...

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/local/article/0,1299,DRMN_15_5408078,00.html

Another big story in the Rocky today about our friend. Ahhh, the plot thickens in the 'Congrove Might be Goin' to the Big House' saga...


You better hope the tower issue is resolved before he goes. Judge Jackson might give the commissioners another 10 months for his replacement to 'come up to speed'. ;)

--- CHAS

You better hope the tower issue is resolved before he goes. Judge Jackson might give the commissioners another 10 months for his replacement to 'come up to speed'. ;)
--- CHAS
Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!! :eek:

...should be "resolved" Monday <fingers crossed>.

Phil, I saw that you were going tomorrow to the Taj. Anybody else? I would have, but I'm booked. Can't wait to read your report.

I know this is a bit off topic, but I know there is some brain power here that could probably direct me in the proper direction -

I am putting my TV on one side of the room and my electronics (C-band, DVD player, OTA receiver, etc.) on the opposite side of the room and I need some looong YRB cables - around 25' - anybody know best place to find them?

Thanks ahead!

Tim

I would recommend one of the forum sponsors for that - Blue Jeans Cable (http://www.bluejeanscable.com/) They are a little more expensive than Monoprice but IMHO for a component cable quality is more important than the absolute lowest price.

Anyone else notice that on CH 31 tonight the audio would drop out during the commercials? Quite frankly I love this new feature and hope that they make it permanent. Usually the volume blasts, but muting them on my behalf is wonderful! ;) Now if only you would FF through them as well.

Anyone else notice that on CH 31 tonight the audio would drop out during the commercials? Quite frankly I love this new feature and hope that they make it permanent. Usually the volume blasts, but muting them on my behalf is wonderful! ;) Now if only you would FF through them as well.

Yes, I noticed it during "The Simpsons", like you, I am hoping this is a permanent feature for 31-1. The folks watching in NTSC had to hear them. BTW, the sound was also gone on the D* feed of 31, so it was more than just an OTA issue.

I'll be at the Taj tomorrow - at least for a little bit. If it looks like they're going to muck around all day, I'll have to get back to work. Hopefully they'll make their decision promptly.

Tower article in today's Denver Post:

http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_5414884

My favorite line from the article"

""We're building the tower," said Lake Cedar spokesman Marv Rockford. A road has been built to where foundations for the transmitter building and tower anchors are being poured. " :)

My next most favorite line:

"McCasky said he hopes Lake Cedar Group will comply with a 2003 plan approved by the previous county board, including removing three major towers after the new tower is built and dedicating land for open space. "

Hey numbnut! If you have not been paying attention for the last 4 years, it's FOUR towers. Idiot! One would hope that at least the commissioners would pay attention at their own meetings. Sheesh! :rolleyes:

So, Ernie, are you going to do a documentary on the building of the Denver Tower and etc.? Is LCG gonna have a shooter document the process? If nothing else, it would be a fun project!

Tim

I would recommend one of the forum sponsors for that - Blue Jeans Cable (http://www.bluejeanscable.com/) They are a little more expensive than Monoprice but IMHO for a component cable quality is more important than the absolute lowest price.

I'll second the recommendation for Blue Jeans Cable. They use known manufacturers for their cable and connectors and do a great job assembling the cable. They can make pretty much any cable you need too. I only used them for a short component BNC to RCA cable, but it works great and is much higher quality than any of the much more expensive cables sold at mass market retailers.

The vote...

3-0.

In favour!!!

McCasky voted for - based on the voluminous testimony which contained no reasonable argument to deny the proposal.
Hartman voted for - based on the federal jurisdiction as made clear in the federal law passed in December. She wasn't happy to be voting for, but based on the law, it's the way she had to.
(fill in the blank) Congrove voted for - based on all the reasons stated by the other two commissioners. He hopes that this vote doesn't impact the impending 10th Amendment legal challenge to the proposal.

Leonard and I sat right behind Deb - the whole process was less than half an hour (most of which was spent by the clerk reading the 3-page article into record) but she managed to fill an entire page with notes. Who knows what she's planning - pretty sure conceding defeat isn't in her playbook, though :(

The vote...

3-0.

In favour!!!

McCasky voted for - based on the voluminous testimony which contained no reasonable argument to deny the proposal.
Hartman voted for - based on the federal jurisdiction as made clear in the federal law passed in December. She wasn't happy to be voting for, but based on the law, it's the way she had to.
(fill in the blank) Congrove voted for - based on all the reasons stated by the other two commissioners. He hopes that this vote doesn't impact the impending 10th Amendment legal challenge to the proposal.
...............
Thanks for the update. BTW, did Congrove vote "yes" or "F*## Yes" like last time? :D

Looks like the three of them decided follow the law for a change. JJ did not allow them to consider anything but the single topic of a falling tower, and the Federal Law overrides any other consideration. I suspect that JJ can now lift the injunction shortly. I would be surprised, given the Federal law just passed, if Deb could come up with anything with enough grounds to get another injunction to stop the work at this time. Even if she files appeals on the legality of the Federal Law, it could take years, and without an injunction to stop construction, work will likely be done long before her case could be heard. For a change, the usual court delays will work in our favor. Maybe, if Jeffco gets lucky and the LCG is in a forgiving mood, they will get a portion of what they agreed to years ago before the legal delays. :rolleyes:

JeffCo = Spaulding IMOHO; "You'll get nothing and like it!" ;)

To me even though they voted 3 to 0 to accept it's not what they wanted to do. It is all based on the fact that it was originally approved back in 2003 and the last remand was for them prove there was competent evidence to support their majority vote not to approve. Kathy stated that you get elected to have control over jurisdictional matters only to find out what little control you have. Congrove wished them good luck on there their 10th amendment issue.
The meeting was started by the County Attorney and assistant County Attorney presenting a history of events.
There was not a very big turn out and all was quiet. The meeting only lasted about 30 minutes.

"We're building the tower," said Lake Cedar spokesman Marv Rockford. A road has been built to where foundations for the transmitter building and tower anchors are being poured.
Now this is great news! It sounds like they aren't dinking around! Once they start pouring concrete, things usually move right along. In 30 days they could actually start working on the tower! I know that that is a tad bit optimistic, but the possibility exists.

Gosh, I wonder when they'll start on the outhouse? :p
....jc

At the very least they ought to start posting more pictures on the hdtvcolorado web site, so we can keep up with whatever progress they're making.

Gosh, I wonder when they'll start on the outhouse? :p
....jc

Let's do the right thing and allow sCARE to use whatever facilities are brought in for the tower crew. Now I'm not saying this out of some exalted sense of humanity. The Act doesn't provide for construction of outhouses on the mountain so the county hasn't lost all local authority. We don't want to see that 'lady' lawyer convince Judge Jackson to padlock the construction site over an outhouse zoning issue.

But again, maybe a smarter lawyer can make the case it is an ancillary structure ;)

--- CHAS

I suspect that JJ can now lift the injunction shortly.

I believe JJ did not need this vote to lift the injunction with all due haste. However, in my opinion, JJ successfully met his original intention of passing the buck by delay and default. He now has no reason to not go ahead with the formality of dismissing the injunction. Also, LCG has no more excuses to delay construction, other than possible FCC red tape. I would hope the LCG has all their ducks in a row to finish construction this year. I'm ready for the flange welcoming ceremony.

I am in favor of removing the old towers as proposed in the original 2003 zoning app. I also believe that RF monitoring will be abandoned by LCG due to cost; this will give (s)care the continuing story of LCG is nothing but baby killing liars.

Don

Hey, Jetlag! Empty out some of your pm stuff so I can pm you, please! It says your box is full -

And thanks to all for the suggestions of Blue Jeans Cable! They look good!

Tim

Denver Post Article (http://www.denverpost.com/ci_5418475)

It's been so long I've forgotten what was approved today. Did LCG ask for a one-time legal exemption to the zoning to build the tower, or did they ask for permanent rezoning of the location?

I'm curious because the article talked about rezoning and Congrove talked about approving the rezoning so that they might have some control over what is happening up on Lookout Mtn. Does that mean the towers are now "legal and conforming" or will they still be "legal, non-conforming" after the new construction?

Is there even any way to know given the myriad laws and jurisdictions and orders involved in the tower construction?

It's been so long I've forgotten what was approved today. Did LCG ask for a one-time legal exemption to the zoning to build the tower, or did they ask for permanent rezoning of the location?
I'm 99% sure it's a permanent rezoning of the location where the new tower is being built.

And, as a companion piece to the Denver Post article above, here's the Rocky's story (http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/local/article/0,1299,DRMN_15_5412477,00.html) on the decision this morning. My favourite line: "Lake Cedar won today," said Deb Carney
:D

"Lake Cedar won today," said Deb Carney
Not exactly 100% correct Deb, the people of Denver and the surrounding communities WON today.

The rezoning passed today is the best way we have "to control what is going on up there," Congrove said of the Lookout Mountain tower.
"To control what is going on"? If you have not realized yet it is controlled by the Feds, not by local super-spy, file stealing miscreants.

"This is not in our best interest," said Deb Carney, attorney for the homeowner association umbrella group Canyon Area Residents for the Environment.
According to the Deb Carney WIKI, "OUR" is defined as "the wealthy land speculators who invested in property on Lookout Mountain".

Denver Post Article (http://www.denverpost.com/ci_5418475)


And, as a companion piece to the Denver Post article above, here's the Rocky's story (http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/local/article/0,1299,DRMN_15_5412477,00.html) on the decision this morning.

To quote my favorite band,
"What A Long Strange Trip It's Been" :cool:

The next sound you hear from Lookout (after Deb stops screaming foul) should be the sound of blasting for the control building.
:D

"History will judge this very harshly" - Deb

I think that someone is very full of themselves. History will either ignore the whole thing, or, as a footnote, briefly mention the delay cause by stupid NIMBYism.

:D

Now that it is properly zoned by both the Feds and by JeffCo, if any of the above gets challenged, the other one takes over so ...
Game, Set, Match.

# Matt

"History will judge this very harshly" - Deb
For our country's sake, I certainly hope so!

When a small group of people deny 100's of thousands of people the right to enjoy something, due to their own agenda and greed, this is something that people should remember.
....jc

Anybody heard LCG's response? They weren't part of this meeting? My feeling is it doesn't matter what Congrove or the rest of the BOCC says, LCG can still do whatever the hell they want. They don't have to sign-off on this.

The details of OTA converter box program have been published on one of the government websites:

http://www.ntia.doc.gov/otiahome/dtv/dtvcoupon.html

The coupon-eligible boxes will be pretty basic. Listed on the 'disqualifying features' list are HDMI, DVI, and analog YPrPb outputs.

My take is RF in, decode and down convert to SD any of the 18 ATSC formats, then output via ch 3/4 modulator, composite, or s-video only.

-Glen

Anybody heard LCG's response? They weren't part of this meeting? My feeling is it doesn't matter what Congrove or the rest of the BOCC says, LCG can still do whatever the hell they want. They don't have to sign-off on this.
Nothing posted on the HDTV Colorado (http://hdtvcolorado.com/) website. I guess there is no need to gloat, they won this thing when the law was passed in Congress.

As for you other comment, I agree, the whole show today was for Deb and her followers, it really doesn't matter what they think anymore. The LCG can build what they want, when they want, and they can basically do whatever they want with the old agreement from 2003. Jeffco, (S)CARE, and Golden got exactly what they deserve.

I can't believe it. After all these years, construction has begun! When's the Bar-B-Q?

All in all, a good day for metro-Denver citizens.

Anybody see Deb's comment on Channel 2's 9 O'clock news last night? She said that there was someone from the Lithuanian (IIRC) equivalent of the FCC that was "appalled at the level of radiation" coming from the mountain.

She must have run out of local authorities that agree with her. :p

So why does she still live up there?

Here is the article (http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_5421552) that appeared in the Denver Post paper today. The wording is somewhat different from yesterday. Details what LCG's plans are.

Anybody heard LCG's response? They weren't part of this meeting? My feeling is it doesn't matter what Congrove or the rest of the BOCC says, LCG can still do whatever the hell they want. They don't have to sign-off on this.
Ernie - no I didn't see anyone from LCG there yesterday. Like you (and others) have said - there was no reason for them to be there.

To whomever was vouching for Kathy Hartman's integrity last year - after seeing her in person, I have great respect for her. She clearly wanted to vote no - if only in principle to deny the rezoning application - but she understood the legalities of the situation and did what she was bound by honor (and law ;) ) to do - she voted yes.

Again, McCaskey (sp?) seemed to have the best grasp on the situation.

Still no update on sCARE's website? Lemme suggest some sample text: "It's over" :D

Does anyone know what really has be agreed upon? The mountain has been rezoned? Is there some document explaining the zoning details? Is there an 'understanding' between the county and the broadcasters? What elements of all those ancient agreements will be honored? Those linked press reports contain no real information.

Everyones website seems to have been abandoned for the last month. This thing appears to be settled. Now it's time for everyone who is either directly involved or just interested to know exactly what's going to happen. Why all the secrecy?

--- CHAS

"Lake Cedar won today," said Deb Carney, an attorney for CARE. "History will judge this very harshly"


History's reply:

We judge Deb and the SCARE group to be at best selfish at worst stupid.

It seems to be this way because everyone thinks they've won something.

sCARE is always hanging on some threat of another lawsuit.
Golden is also still threating legal action.
BOCC's think they're done by approving this worthless piece of paper.
LCG didn't have to be at the meeting and doesn't have to agree to whatever they passed.

We may never know for a while until either sCARE, Golden or BOCC's files new legal action to stop LCG from bringing in the cranes!

Does anyone know what really has be agreed upon? The mountain has been rezoned? Is there some document explaining the zoning details? Is there an 'understanding' between the county and the broadcasters? What elements of all those ancient agreements will be honored? Those linked press reports contain no real information.

Everyones website seems to have been abandoned for the last month. This thing appears to be settled. Now it's time for everyone who is either directly involved or just interested to know exactly what's going to happen. Why all the secrecy?

--- CHAS
So what happened yesterday is the JeffCo Board of County Commissioners voted 3-0 to approve the rezoning of the land the LCG is currently building the tower on. The rezoning proposal submitted by LCG has a ton of concessions built in to attempt to satisfy local residents and the county such as removal of old towers, LCG paying for monitoring of RF, the support buildings being partially buried, etc.

This vote happened because Judge Jackson, who is the judge in a lawsuit brought against LCG and JeffCo by sCARE and the city of Golden saying the previous BCC made an unlawful decision when they approved the rezoning in 2003 (or was it 2004? I forget now). Judge Jackson ordered the current BCC to make a final decision, and explain why they were making the decision, before he decides what to do with the lawsuit. He also slapped an injunction on LCG prohibiting them from constructing the tower (or associated buildings, etc).

With all that said, there is (as of January) a federal law that says all of this is out of the control of Jefferson County - that the stations have a federally-protected right to build a digital-capable tower (and buildings, etc) on Lookout Mountain as long as the tower is no taller than any existing analog towers.

That federal law is what the stations are using as permission for the construction work that's going on right now, despite Judge Jackson's injunction.

In my opinion, JeffCo approved the rezoning, even though it's out of their control, in an attempt to show LCG they were playing nice amid hopes that LCG will meet the commitments they made in the original rezoning application. Even though, by federal law, LCG has no obligation whatsoever to honor those commitments.

[edit]
So where we stand now:

* There's federal law allowing the construction to continue
* There's a local injunction that is overriden by federal law
* The land is properly zoned for future work that needs to be done on the towers (this rezoning happened way back in 2003/4, but because of the lawsuit and injunction, hasn't been of any benefit to LCG)
* The federal law will be (has been?) challenged by Deb as a violation of the 10th amendment. By the time anybody hears her case, we should have a tower built and operating. So that's basically a cash-grab by Deb to try to take more of sCARE's and Golden's money.

So what happened yesterday is the JeffCo Board of County Commissioners voted 3-0 to approve the rezoning of the land the LCG is currently building the tower on. The rezoning proposal submitted by LCG has a ton of concessions built in to attempt to satisfy local residents and the county such as removal of old towers, LCG paying for monitoring of RF, the support buildings being partially buried, etc.

This vote happened because Judge Jackson, who is the judge in a lawsuit brought against LCG and JeffCo by sCARE and the city of Golden saying the previous BCC made an unlawful decision when they approved the rezoning in 2003 (or was it 2004? I forget now). Judge Jackson ordered the current BCC to make a final decision, and explain why they were making the decision, before he decides what to do with the lawsuit. He also slapped an injunction on LCG prohibiting them from constructing the tower (or associated buildings, etc).

With all that said, there is (as of January) a federal law that says all of this is out of the control of Jefferson County - that the stations have a federally-protected right to build a digital-capable tower (and buildings, etc) on Lookout Mountain as long as the tower is no taller than any existing analog towers.

That federal law is what the stations are using as permission for the construction work that's going on right now, despite Judge Jackson's injunction.

In my opinion, JeffCo approved the rezoning, even though it's out of their control, in an attempt to show LCG they were playing nice amid hopes that LCG will meet the commitments they made in the original rezoning application. Even though, by federal law, LCG has no obligation whatsoever to honor those commitments.

[edit]
So where we stand now:

* There's federal law allowing the construction to continue
* There's a local injunction that is overriden by federal law
* The land is properly zoned for future work that needs to be done on the towers (this rezoning happened way back in 2003/4, but because of the lawsuit and injunction, hasn't been of any benefit to LCG)
* The federal law will be (has been?) challenged by Deb as a violation of the 10th amendment. By the time anybody hears her case, we should have a tower built and operating. So that's basically a cash-grab by Deb to try to take more of sCARE's and Golden's money.

"You are indeed a wise man"

Great summary pretty much says it all and tells it like it is.

You are indeed a wise man dr_mal > times 2! :)

Excellent post.

BTW I added this comment to the article in today's Post:

"Posted By: TS in Denver (13/03/2007 10:37:24 AM)
Comment: Deb Carney has been the most vocal opponent of the new tower construction for many years. Most often she cites the 'deadly levels of RF radiation that will be emitted' from the new tower. Yet, now that it is obvious that the new tower will be built she chooses to remain living on Lookout Mountain and has not listed her house for sale. Either she is an idiot to remain there or the 'facts' about RF levels she has routinely cited are simply false. It is now obvious to everyone that this entire fight has been about one thing, land value speculation and property values; simple greed."

I love this reply the Post recently published to their article yesterday! OK fess up -- who is TS?!
Deb Carney has been the most vocal opponent of the new tower construction for many years. Most often she sites the 'deadly levels of RF radiation that will be emitted' from the new tower. Yet, now that it is obvious that the new tower will be built, she chooses to remain living on Lookout Mountain and has not listed her house for sale. Either she is and idiot to remain there, or the 'facts' about RF levels she has routinely cited are simply false. It is now obvious to everyone that this entire fight has been about one thing, land value speculation and property values. Simple greed.

Jetlag, I guess I took too long to type! It's this work/job thing that sometimes gets in my way :)

New story in Golden Transcript. A few new tidbits.

http://goldentranscript.com/1editorialbody.lasso?-token.folder=2007-03-08&-token.story=188084.112112&-token.subpub=

So Carney is going to appeal because of an alleged 10th amendment violation. Good grief. I'm glad I'm not financing that folly.

Anyway, onward and upward. Good to hear LCG is working regardless of the injunction. Maybe they are finally serious about getting this done. If that's the case you guys may have high power late this year!

It seems to me that Deb Carney is now fighting a two front war. Even if Carney can win "something" in her pursuit of the 10th Amendment, the time to appeal JeffCo's zoning approval yesterday will have long passed. It's a given on how Judge Jackson will rule. I think she's literally going up Clear Creek without a paddle.

It's my understanding the tower area is officially zoned residential with the towers being allowed by a grandfathering provision. So with rezoning, is the tower area now officially zoned for telecommunications?

--- CHAS

It's my understanding the tower area is officially zoned residential with the towers being allowed by a grandfathering provision. So with rezoning, is the tower area now officially zoned for telecommunications? --- CHASMaybe Wabisabi can enlighten us on this?

If they did 'officially' rezone the area, then it's only to the benefit of LCG and not to JeffCo.

If they did 'officially' rezone the area, then it's only to the benefit of LCG and not to JeffCo.

As I understand it the JeffCo BCC voted to uphold the zoning change approved by BCC in 2003 and again in 2004, changing the zoning of the LCG parcel (not the whole area) to PUD for Telecommunications. That means the new tower will be properly zoned. The old LCG tower parcels were not subject to rezoning; presumably this will some day become open space anyway. Separately KWGN has been attempting to deal with zoning of their parcel. The KDVR parcel is already properly (or at least adequately) zoned for their tower.

So with rezoning, is the tower area now officially zoned for telecommunications?
OK. Some other people weighed in while I was away. I'll keep my speculation below for posterity :), but it looks like HDJello is pretty certain that the new tower parcel was rezoned.

I have no idea (I asked the same question the other day), but it makes sense to me that they approved a zoning *variance* for the tower construction and didn't actually change the zoning. I asked the question because the language in the newspaper articles talks about rezoning.

Again, I don't know what they actually approved. I'm just guessing that it was a variance for the proposed construction (including all the extra measures that LCG would have to go through as part of that approval).

I dunno guys, the language I've always heard in relation to this issue is "rezoning" not "zoning variance"

For example, this page at jeffco.us: http://jeffco.us/news/news_item_np_T9_R482.htm

And here: http://www.co.jefferson.co.us/ctb/resolutions/04/04-451.htm

I dunno guys, the language I've always heard in relation to this issue is "rezoning"
That sounds really positive for LCG. I assume that means that they won't need to go back for zoning approvals or variances to make minor changes to the towers in the future. I assume they still need to comply with building codes for future changes, but that's a lot different than the situation today.

Maybe Wabisabi can enlighten us on this?

If they did 'officially' rezone the area, then it's only to the benefit of LCG and not to JeffCo.

The LCG's rezoning was approved (again). This means that there will not need to be fights in the future about what is allowed on the tower. The federal law is vague about this, saying something to the effect of "stuff that is associated with DTV" is allowed. But that could lead to many arguments. Are ENG dishes "associated with" DTV? What about satellite links? Analog TV? By approving this rezoning, there should not be any fights about what is allowed or not. Also, in the case that the federal law is determined to be unconstitutional, then LCG still has an approved rezoning, so neither side has to worry about what to do if a new tower is built under a law that is later determined to be unconstitutional. I would call it best for both parties that the rezoning was approved.

-Wabisabi

P.S. The rezoning includes the land that channel 7 & 9 own.

P.S. The rezoning includes the land that channel 7 & 9 own.
And, the bill only states 'Lookout Mountain'. Soooo, anyone who is granted an FCC permit for Digital Television Broadcast lateda, can throw it up, as long as it isn't taller than any tower that exists at the time.

I can see that sometime down the road, JeffCo may be required to rezone another parcel up there. And, what happens if all of the analog towers have been removed? Hmmmm. Interesting. I would assume that since there are no analog towers to be lower than, that the height limit disappears also.

Food for thought.
....jc

As I understand it the JeffCo BCC voted to uphold the zoning change approved by BCC in 2003 and again in 2004, changing the zoning of the LCG parcel (not the whole area) to PUD for Telecommunications. That means the new tower will be properly zoned. The old LCG tower parcels were not subject to rezoning; presumably this will some day become open space anyway. Separately KWGN has been attempting to deal with zoning of their parcel. The KDVR parcel is already properly (or at least adequately) zoned for their tower. I beleive it is 8 acres of LCG land that is now rezoned to PD (Planned Development) and there's approximately 72 acres that were orginally (in the LCG2 application) going to be returned to the county for open space. It is this 72 acres that I wonder what the outcome of the zoning is or whether LCG will still relinquish ownership. The KDVR and KWGN land is already "Special Use" under their AG-2 (Agricultural) zoning. Those are the only two zoning districts that allow towers under JeffCo TLUP.

Is anyone else having trouble receiving the KWGN-DT OTA signal? I live in Stapleton and have an indoor Zenith antenna. I was receiving the signal fine for about 6 months. Then around Dec 2006, the signal went away and I was never able to pick it up again. Every other channel comes in fine. Did something change with KWGN-DT?

Another story. This time in the Canyon Courier. Absolutely nothing new, just a carbon-copy of the other stories.

http://www.canyoncourier.com/story_display.php?sid=5048

Anybody see Deb's comment on Channel 2's 9 O'clock news last night? She said that there was someone from the Lithuanian (IIRC) equivalent of the FCC that was "appalled at the level of radiation" coming from the mountain.

Of course the "level of radiation" coming from the mountain was the background radiation from the granite. She won't mention that though. :D

That's exactly correct. When I bought my old house up here on the hill, it had an above level of radon when tested. The sellers had to install a system to suck the air out of the basement. You never hear any of that in the sCARE rhetoric!

About this electromagnetic radiation issue.

There is ionizing radiation associated with radioactive materials such as radon. Gamma Rays and X Rays are examples. Fast neutrons, Cosmic Rays, Alpha and Beta particles are example of energetic particles that produce ionizing radiation when the relinquish energy upon being absorbed into flesh. Ionizing radiation will cause genetic mutations or even immediate death if one is exposed to large doses over a small time. This is dangerous radiation .. no ifs, ands or buts.

A nuclear event generates lots of ionizing radiation. So when sCARE screams radiation, the ignorant masses envision a mushroom cloud. Dragging their children, they run screaming for the exits while those with a deeper understanding stand there with an ear to ear grin; mission accomplished.

Then there is non-ionizing radiation. Radio Frequencies (RF), infrared and visible light are examples. The only biological effects scientifically quantified are those due to heating. So in the the case of Government's guidelines for RF exposure, it is specified in terms of watts per area. That maximum power density depends on frequency because, in general, flesh absorbs more power at certain frequencies.

You don't need a PhD but if your are technically inclined and interested, the guidelines for determining compliance with RF power density levels both for a single station or for an antenna farm such as Lookout are here:

http://www.fcc.gov/Bureaus/Engineering_Technology/Documents/bulletins/oet65/oet65.pdf

The Act stipulates that LCG must conform to all federal regulations. So I think everyone, sCARE included, is entitled to scrutinize their engineering analysis of this matter. Where can it be found?

--- CHAS

The sellers had to install a system to suck the air out of the basement.Which you don't need to run until time comes to sell your house.

But any radiation is dangerous if you listen to scare - they do not discriminate. The word radiation aids their cause. If they were truly concerned about non ionizing radiation they'd move off the mountain, get rid of their cell phones, and live in a part of the country that doesn't have 300 sunny days each any every year (and at altitude no less). No they're quite content to say the "R" word and hope the uninformed Mom's run in mass hysteria to hubbies demanding they give money to scare so that they can run the evil RF bastards that are trying to kill them off of Lookout. Most of us may remember about 3-4 years ago when scare even claimed RF causes sleep deprivation. Goes to show you that they don't give two hoots or a holler about truth. They only want to win and in that vein facts only get in the way of a good hysteria.

Geof,

We both know the radiation issue is a red herring.

I once helped stop construction of a cell tower by using the R issue. My boss asked me for arguments to prevent construction of the tower on municipal land adjacent to his property. I said 'Challenge it on RADIATION safety issues'. I did a quick calculation that showed the power density was not even close to exceeding the imposed limits but suggested he make the telephone company prove it.

The telephone company commissioned an 'expert' to perform the analysis. He made many fundamental errors that we quickly exploited. We even discredited the project engineer when he admitted he had no knowledge of the site antenna technical parameters.

The telephone company tired of all the protracted 'Concerned Citizen' public hearings and built its tower down the road. I'm told the cellular industry got its act together after that fiasco!

It's very difficult to use a Biological Effects argument today. Free standing cell towers are now generally exempt from analysis. High power broadcast facilities are not.

So, using a R power density issue, a non-emotional and competent technical assault on LCG at the federal level might very well still be an Achilles' heel.

Fortunately, sCARE hasn't displayed that kind of discipline in its arguments to date.

--- CHAS

It's very difficult to use a Biological Effects argument today. Free standing cell towers are now generally exempt from analysis. High power broadcast facilities are not.

So, using a R power density issue, a non-emotional and competent technical assault on LCG at the federal level might very well still be an Achilles' heel.

You do realize they regularily read this thread, right? I would be a bit more cautious about throwing out ideas that they could utilize. Of course I may be paranoid but they have not tried this one, YET.

They've tried everything from 'Talking toasters' to the Radiation is the same as dropping above-ground nuclear bombs. It's a done deal.

Here is story as seen by the City&Mountain Views (http://www.citymtnviews.com/AT-Update030712.php4) I would really like to know where they are coming from.

Here is story as seen by the City&Mountain Views (http://www.citymtnviews.com/AT-Update030712.php4) I would really like to know where they are coming from.

From the article:
"The March 12 approval is in response to extortion manipulated by Lake Cedar Group (TV stations owned by Westinghouse, Gannett, and McGraw Hill), which quietly gained passage of a bill to preempt Jefferson County during the closing hours of the 109th Congress in December, 2006"

Can City and Mountian Views spell the word "libel".

Commissioners expect LCG to comply with the 2003 Official Development Plan and revise or delete the federal preemption.ROTFLMAO. Ain't gonna' happen!!!

Commissioners expect LCG to comply with the 2003 Official Development Plan and revise or delete the federal preemption.

:D :D :D :D

I expect to win a $90M lottery tommorow and I haven't even bought a ticket.

I like this one too, which has been thrown out by (s)CARE as well:

U.S. Senate bill 4092 is a clear violation of Amendment 10 of the Bill of Rights in the U. S. Constitution that prohibits overriding local, city, county, and state levels of review, regulation, and law.
Here is what Amendment 10 actually says, in its entirety:

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.
No reference to prohibiting overriding local, city, county, and state levels of review, regulation, and law there. There is so much case law and legal precendence establishing Congress' ability to trump local, city, county, and state laws, that a constitutional challenge is no more likely to succeed than John's winning the lottery without a ticket.

No reference to prohibiting overriding local, city, county, and state levels of review, regulation, and law there. There is so much case law and legal precendence establishing Congress' ability to trump local, city, county, and state laws, that a constitutional challenge is no more likely to succeed than John's winning the lottery without a ticket.
I find this both ironic and amusing.

When Golden was attempting to use eminent domain to gain possession of the LCG land on Lookout, they embraced the recent federal precedent which they were relying on to enable their success. I'm speaking of course about the legal but IMOHO unethical seizure of private homes by a municipality for the purpose of private commercial development which was upheld by the Supreme Court (in 2005-6?).

Now that they are on the receiving end of related federal precedents they are crying foul? Give me a break! This is the epitome of NIMBY-ism; pure, unadulterated, self-serving greed combined with complete disregard for the benefit/detriment of others.

When BOCC/JeffCo/sCARE/Golden appeared to have the 'upper hand' they seemed almost giddy at the prospect of kicking LCG off of the mountain. It may be cruel but I am truly enjoy watching them get their comeupance. :D

When BOCC/JeffCo/sCARE/Golden appeared to have the 'upper hand' they seemed almost giddy at the prospect of kicking LCG off of the mountain. It may be cruel but I am truly enjoy watching them get their comeupance. :D
I see nothing cruel about:

* fewer towers
* lower <scary voice>radiation</scary voice>
* more abundant free TV (and in HD!) for the entire metro area.

They're really winning - they've just been deceived into thinking they're losing somehow.

So yeah, I'm enjoying this quite a bit :)

Maybe this thread should be divided into two:
-- LCG / sCARE battle
-- Current HDTV Info/Reception

Maybe this thread should be divided into two:
-- LCG / sCARE battle
-- Current HDTV Info/Reception
I don't think so, as now the 'Battle' is over (we all hope) and we can look forward to discussing how everybody on the front range doesn't have reception issues and is enjoying DTV and HDTV!

Well, there's still one loose end that needs to be tied down.

http://www.courts.state.co.us/district/01st/judges/1distrjackson.htm

--- CHAS

LCG web site has updated. Click here (http://www.hdtvcolorado.com/) .

The new tower will begin operations some time around spring to summer of 2008A year from right now, that's encouraging! At least they didn't say 2009.

A year from right now, that's encouraging! At least they didn't say 2009.

I'll believe it when I can see the signal from the 'majors' with a pair of rabbit ears on my home receivers.......until then, I've heard all the promises before....

So, any news on whats up w/ KRMA (aka RMPBS) and OTA? I searched their website and all I could find on the digital TV topic was a Coverage Map here (http://www.rmpbs.org/content/index.cfm/fuseaction/showContent/contentID/77/navID/75.htm). This contradicts another page that lists 25 mile reception radius of RP. I was hoping to find a schedule for the real transmitter, or better yet, that they would/could re-join LCG and all would be wonderful.

# Matt

LCG needs to put up a web cam so we can keep tabs on the construction (and catch any ne'er-do-wellers ;) )

LCG needs to put up a web cam so we can keep tabs on the construction (and catch any ne'er-do-wellers ;) )
Maybe Congrove has an infrared spy-camera that he can loan us? ;)

My feeling is that initially they may be at low power and stay that way until analog is turned off. Also I doubt if the new tower will ever include analog. Its not worth it to add analog transmitters for only a year. Thus the old towers will not come down until after analog is turned off. We all know that LCG is not going to do everything they promised in their 2003 proposal.

I'll believe it when I can see the signal from the 'majors' with a pair of rabbit ears on my home receivers.......until then, I've heard all the promises before....

Yep, I know better. I've never made a prediction date. I'll believe it when I see it.

Yep, I know better. I've never made a prediction date. I'll believe it when I see it.
I prefer to think of my entry as more of a 'wish' date than a prediction.

I prefer to think of my entry as more of a 'wish' date than a prediction.


Then I wish yesterday. Where is the predictions located again. I thought they were on Ernie's web sight but I did see the list.

I started a new job recently and haven't had the time to visit the forum like I used to. I had to read about forty pages to catch up. Its good to see all of you still here and I can't believe Deb and her Axis of Evil still thinks they have a snowballs chance to hold this up any longer.

I'll keep the pool. Here's a link.

http://www.santellaproductions.com/dtv/Onairdate.htm

44th post of this thread (page 2).

Tim,

Your in a perfect spot to win the pool. LCG says Spring to Summer 2008, anytime between 3/21- 9/21. And with our history of missing 'flanges' that should put it towards the end of that window. ;)

Positive letter in the Denver Post Letters Page today.

Denver Post Editorial Page March 16, 2007 (http://www.denverpost.com/opinion/ci_5446821)

Scan about halfway down. Great letter with some great points, anyone here on the thread responsible?

Yes, what are the chances of getting other stations like KRMA on the new digital tower? It's going to be great when I can watch clear digital TV at home compared to my current fuzzy set up. The clearest station I get is ion (not sure off the call sign) where it appears it is broadcasted from the apartment below me.

I hope the tower gets up before March Madness 2008 which I highly doubt but it would be great to watch some clear NCAA hoops.

Tim

Yes, what are the chances of getting other stations like KRMA on the new digital tower? Since they replaced my favorite HD shows with "Create" and diluted the bit rate with their Spanish subchannel, I'm not sure I really care anymore.

Thought I'd post an update on my antenna search. I ended up purchasing the Channel Master 3679 from Solid Signal and got it installed today. We were able to mount it inside my garage. After hooking it up I was able to receive all local HD/DTV channels including CBS at a signal strength of about 65%. I'm also using it for VHF/Analog reception and that was a little weak so we hooked up an amp on the line and that improved the analog reception and brought the CBS signal strength up to just above 80%. So, I'm pretty happy that I'm getting excellent reception and didn't have to mount the antenna outside the house! In fact, I'm sitting here watching the NCAA tournament in HD on my MacBook via an Elgato EyeTV Hybrid.

Thanks for all your help,
David

Tim,

Your in a perfect spot to win the pool. LCG says Spring to Summer 2008, anytime between 3/21- 9/21. And with our history of missing 'flanges' that should put it towards the end of that window. ;)

I was just thinking Independence Day would be the perfect day to launch full digital power, plus weighing the odds that sCare probably hates that day.

I was just thinking Independence Day would be the perfect day to launch full digital power, plus weighing the odds that sCare probably hates that day.

What's your 'take' on a scenario for this to happen? I have been thinking Channels 4, 7 and 9 will not shut down analog until either the general public is ready for digital or Feb of 2009 arrives. They cannot go digital on channels 4, 7, and 9 from Lookout or any place else until they the cease analog transmissions on these channels.

It's not reasonable to expect they will upgrade and move their temporary UHF digital equipment to the tower for less than a year of useful life. That just doesn't make financial/ business sense. When they vacate their temporary UHF channels, that equipment will be useless to them.

Channel 20 might be ready for DTV earlier because they can be using their targeted equipment configuration.

If I were in charge, there would be nothing on the new tower that will be obsolete
after the Feb of 2009 transition.

--- CHAS

sCARE just updated their website. I'm amazed that they are still under the false illusion that LCG must abide by the 2003 LCGII application now that it's approved (again). What are they smokin' and where can I get some?

http://www.c-a-r-e.org/

Channel 20 might be ready for DTV earlier because they can be using their targeted equipment configuration.
Also channel 4, since they are keeping their current digital channel (35) after the analog shutoff in 2/09. Otherwise I agree with you - KMGH and KUSA digital will stay at Republic Plaza until those stations cease analog transmission, most likely in 2/09.

sCARE just updated their website. I'm amazed that they are still under the false illusion that LCG must abide by the 2003 LCGII application now that it's approved (again). What are they smokin' and where can I get some?

http://www.c-a-r-e.org/

It is well worth your time to read the resolution referenced on the (S)CARE page under

Jeffco has filed a status report to the court informing Judge Jackson of the resolution of approval of LCG's 2003 ODP. To read the resolution, click here.... (http://www.c-a-r-e.org/pdfs/Jeffco%20March%2012%20Resolution%20of%20Approval.pdf)

Tor those of you who don't have the time I will try to paraphrase it for you.

Dear JJ
Remember all those things we objected to for the last 7-10 years, well, funny thing, as it turns out we were 'juuust kiddding"!
Sincerely
The Folks in Jeffco

That should tie down the remaining 'loose end'.

--- CHAS

Tor those of you who don't have the time I will try to paraphrase it for you.

Dear JJ
Remember all those things we objected to for the last 7-10 years, well, funny thing, as it turns out we were 'juuust kiddding"!
Sincerely
The Folks in Jeffco

Unless I got it wrong, weren't Jeffco (along side of LCG) a defendant in the case brought by Golden City and sCare? It was remanded back to them to clean up some "technicalities" in the approval process. They have (officially based on vote) always approved the re-zoning.

Correct me if I am wrong.

# Matt

Unless I got it wrong, weren't Jeffco (along side of LCG) a defendant in the case brought by Golden City and sCare? It was remanded back to them to clean up some "technicalities" in the approval process. They have (officially based on vote) always approved the re-zoning.

Correct me if I am wrong.

# Matt



I believe you are correct. What is funny is that for the past few years since it was tied up in court (S)CARE and I believe Jeffco with its new commissioners, have been acting like they were going to get a 'do over' since they thought they had found another weakness in the plan, and just in case that failed, Golden would claim the land anyway. Remember the new commissioners campaigned on promising they would never vote for a tower, and I think they felt they would be able to overturn the previous vote by simply finding fault in the plan somewhere. I find it pretty amusing to read the submittal, it makes it all sound like they never had a problem with any of this, which makes you wonder what we have been doing for the past 2 years.

Here's how Judge Jackson ruled on the case filed by sCare, Golden and the multitudes against the County and LCG.

http://www.c-a-r-e.org/pdfs/Order%20of%203rd%20Remand.pdf

I don't think he bought into the Sword of Damocles multiple tower failure theatrics.


--- CHAS

I don't think so, as now the 'Battle' is over (we all hope) and we can look forward to discussing how everybody on the front range doesn't have reception issues and is enjoying DTV and HDTV!

(my 1st post: I'm expecting to get flamed for this)

You don't seem to understand WALTZONICE's post..

98% of this thread is made up of posts about the LCG/sCARE issue.The other 2% is questions about CURRENT reception issues.

Even though "the "Battle" is over" the sCARE posts persist. It appears that they'll persist for the next YEAR+ until the new tower is operational.

For those of us looking for CURRENT reception issue problems, this thread is nearly useless.. as we have to weed through post after post after post after post about the sCARE issue.

Seperating this thread into 2 would let all those who want talk about the sCARE issue, do your thing... and those of us who want to know about the CURRENT reception issues, ask questions.

This thread looks like it will be filled with "the tower is 13" higher than it was last week" for the next year plus. While the people with questions like "How can I get good reception with what's available" are buried in the "tower building" crap get lost in page after page of "I think Deb is so..." crap.

I just got my HDTV at the end of January and it took me 2 minutes to figure out that this thread is useless for those of us who want to ask CURRENT questions about reception. My name reflects my understanding of this.

So 2 threads WOULD be good since most of you are having fun talking about the new tower lawsuits.

It's not FUN for the rest of us who want to find out what we can do CURRENTLY to get better reception. Besides wait.

Let the flaming begin..

-Eric in Westminster.. currently getting WB2 & FOX in HD... damnit.

BTW, this thread would also suck if it was filled with people commenting on how "everybody on the front range doesn't have reception issues and is enjoying DTV and HDTV!" (just my opinion)

Pretty good rant for a first post. I bet if you just asked for some help, there are plenty of helpful folks here that would get you headed in the right direction.

Eric,
Welcome, and I agree, Bravo, nice rant! You'll fit right in here ;)

Seriously, the AVS folks have already condensed down many of the threads because it was getting a bit out of control. They was starting to be multiple threads for each market. (Multiply 5 threads for every TV market, and it would be hard to manage) So, they created a consistent single thread for all OTA TV markets.

Ask away, you won't find a more knowledgeable bunch of guys on any thread, we've seen, tried and rejected just about every type of OTA gear out there! And we have enough members in all locations that someone no doubt will be in an area to post help about reception questions.

If anything, you are coming in at the tail-end of the BS, it should get a bit quiet while the tower build progresses.

Pretty good rant for a first post. I bet if you just asked for some help, there are plenty of helpful folks here that would get you headed in the right direction.

I'd ask if I thought it would help my reception. I'm currently in an APT without a direct view of downtown.. so I'm stuck with an indoor antenna... and the realization that I'm stuck with that until we get a new tower working.

waiting4HDinCO, first of all welcome to the group and the thread. As for splitting up the thread, this format (covering both the tower and reception) has worked for us for over 7 years so I wouldn't expect things to change now. Especially since the legal issues of the tower are now pretty much resolved. I think a split thread would lead to more confusion than anything else at this point. If you think there are a lot of tower posts now, you should have seen the number 3 or 4 years ago when the hearings were taking place in Jeffco. Even then, I think someone in the group usually managed to answer nearly every question about reception that was posted.

That being said, I would give you this recommendation, as well as to any other lurkers out there. If you have questions, simply post them, I the group has always been extremely quick to answer questions and help. In addition, you are always welcome to PM anyone in the group who lives in your neighborhood to find out what they used to solve the issue. In the case of Westminster, unless you are on the north side of a large hill, or have a huge building blocking your 'view' of downtown, you should be able to get all of the channels with an outdoor or attic antenna. This condition should only last about another year (he said as he knocks on a piece of wood). Bear with the thread and feel free to ask questions. You will not be disappointed with the responses. Once again welcome to the thread.

Edited
PS
It looks like several others have also posted in response as well. I hope you get your questions answered.

I'd ask if I thought it would help my reception. I'm currently in an APT without a direct view of downtown.. so I'm stuck with an indoor antenna... and the realization that I'm stuck with that until we get a new tower working.Why not just try an antenna like the Channel Master 3021 on your deck (if you have one) Our situation is not always line-of-site. Yes, they helps, but you might just be surprised at what you can get. We've had many guys report in odd directional setups.

And reception does go through buildings. For example, at my Fathers house in Arvada, I have a 3021 in his garage on the west side of his home. It's aimed SouthEast through the entire house to downtown and he gets acceptable reception. So, anything is possible!

Why not just try an antenna like the Channel Master 3021 on your deck (if you have one) Our situation is not always line-of-site. Yes, they helps, but you might just be surprised at what you can get. We've had many guys report in odd directional setups.

And reception does go through buildings. For example, at my Fathers house in Arvada, I have a 3021 in his garage on the west side of his home. It's aimed SouthEast through the entire house to downtown and he gets acceptable reception. So, anything is possible!

I'll look into that antenna, thank you. I'm almost resigned to waiting another year though.

Oh, don't forget our mantra here... "It's a game of inches."
Literally, if you move your antenna inches in any direction, it can dramatically change your reception.

Oh, don't forget our mantra here... "It's a game of inches."
Literally, if you move your antenna inches in any direction, it can dramatically change your reception.

Haha.. I've moved my indoor antenna probably 20+ times to see if
I could get 4, 7, 9 & 20.. (screw pbs.) But maybe a better antenna 2 ft away on my deck (outside) would get me NBC (which is what I really want right now.)

I'd ask if I thought it would help my reception. I'm currently in an APT without a direct view of downtown.. so I'm stuck with an indoor antenna... and the realization that I'm stuck with that until we get a new tower working.
Fiesty little begger, eh?

Ernie's suggestion is a good one. But, let's step it up a notch:

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/4228.jpg

Try the 'ol CM 4228, and if it doesn't improve things, you're probably SOL. No balcony? Just hang this puppy on a wall.

Oh, and I've never received WB2, so you think that you have it bad? They don't carry football, so it's not that big of a loss.
....jc

No balcony? Just hang this puppy on a wall.
My sister in Atlanta had hers next to the TV for a while, still inside the box it was shipped in. Worked great that way!

Just so you know, the CM4228 is essentialy the same as having two of the CM3021 tied together. From Westminster, I would think the CM3021 should be enough.

Is anyone else having trouble receiving the KWGN-DT OTA signal? I live in Stapleton and have an indoor Zenith antenna. I was receiving the signal fine for about 6 months. Then around Dec 2006, the signal went away and I was never able to pick it up again. Every other channel comes in fine. Did something change with KWGN-DT?Lest your post inadvertently slip completely through the cracks, just thought I'd mention that, yeah, my KWGN-DT reception has been a bit funky the last month or so. It's unlikely they made any changes with their DT transmission if it's only one or two viewers who are experiencing reception problems. I'll be doing some antenna experimentation later this evening to see what the 2.1 problem might be on my end.

I don't watch KWGN very much except for once a week for Smallville, but I have not seen any changes in reception in ages.

I tried several times over the weekend to pick up KGWN - Cheyenne to see if they had different CBS coverage of March Madness. I haven't been able to receive their signal since they took down their low power transmitter a couple of weeks ago (as reported by TotallyPreWired). I'm wondering if they are still off the air, if their full power transmitter is not operating at full power yet, or I now just can't receive them due to some change in their signal pattern due to the new transmitter. Anyone else receiving KGWN?

Lest your post inadvertently slip completely through the cracks, just thought I'd mention that, yeah, my KWGN-DT reception has been a bit funky the last month or so. It's unlikely they made any changes with their DT transmission if it's only one or two viewers who are experiencing reception problems. I'll be doing some antenna experimentation later this evening to see what the 2.1 problem might be on my end.
Thanks TommyK for the response. It turns out that I can pick up KWGN-DT just fine. It's my TV that's been acting up... somehow it lost it's mapping from the actual channel 34 to virtual channel 2.1. I re-ran my "Program Channel" on the TV and it fixed the problem. Though now it won't map 38 to 12.1.... :mad:

I tried several times over the weekend to pick up KGWN - Cheyenne to see if they had different CBS coverage of March Madness. I haven't been able to receive their signal since they took down their low power transmitter a couple of weeks ago (as reported by TotallyPreWired). I'm wondering if they are still off the air, if their full power transmitter is not operating at full power yet, or I now just can't receive them due to some change in their signal pattern due to the new transmitter. Anyone else receiving KGWN?
Mike,
It's been loud and clear down here. KCNC was 'in and out' for me, so most of the 'Madness' that I watched was on KGWN. I just checked again(06:10 today) and it's still coming in fine, and is still my strongest signal.
....jc

Maybe this will help any Newbie's or Lurkers.

If you suddenly lose channels, the first thing to do is try a Re-scan for OTA channels. Even though it's been pretty stable the last year or two, before that it was crazy. Most stations on a weekly basis were changing their mapping. Testing/adding sub-channels etc. It would drive our OTA receivers crazy. Even to the point of some receivers wouldn't lock and others would.

Anyway, just try re-scanning first.

Anyone else have issues getting 12-01, 02 & 03 last night?

(Cross-posted) I noticed recently that my E* 811 which has always displayed programming info for OTA channels suddenly stopped a while ago, most likley removed it with the latest FW, thanks for nothing E*. :mad: I only get the "Digital Service" displayed in the PCIP now same as my 622. They also stopped my NY CBS-HD feed back a couple of months ago despite having a waiver due to some judge's ruling (most likley a friend of JJ?). They now suck equally with D* IMOHO. :(

I wrote E* and Charlie a letter explaining why after having been a customer for something like 7-8 years I dropped my Top 100 & other programming and am contemplating dropping them all together. Hell, Charlie even featured my dish setup on his show back a year or two ago.

I now only get the classic HD channels (DiscoveryHD, TNTHD, HDNET, ESPNHD, etc) and local OTA. The new HD packages are just ridiculously expensive AFAIC. My last E* bill was $4.99. :D

Anyone know of any HD-DVRs (non D* or E* ) that display OTA PCIP info? It's tough to set recordings without programming info. I hope this doesn't mean I will have to go back to using a paper TV Guide :eek: in 2007 no less! What are the non Comcast/E*/D* members here using?

Sorry for being a bit grouchy, but I just found out that my pups have been eating that recalled dog food every morning for about the last month so I'm a tad concerned.

Anyone else have issues getting 12-01, 02 & 03 last night?
I've been having issues with 12-x since Friday (at least - I haven't paid them much attention since sCAREy Al's tests from Squaw). My receiver shows 80-90% signal strength on all 3 channels, but no picture. I haven't posted about it, because I've been waiting to see if a channel scan will fix the problem.

So why did I notice it hasn't worked for me since Friday?
Anyone know of any HD-DVRs (non D* or E* ) that display OTA PCIP info? It's tough to set recordings without programming info. I hope this doesn't mean I will have to go back to using a paper TV Guide :eek: in 2007 no less! What are the non Comcast/E*/D* members here using?
I finally bit the bullet, picked up a Series 3 TiVo on Friday, and cancelled my D* service. 6 1/2 years with the big D, but between neutering the TiVo hardware they had already deployed, moving forward with a (my opinion) sub-quality DVR as their in-house solution, requiring people to subscribe to more SD channels to be able to qualify to get their HD-lite channels, jacking fees up yet again, etc, etc...I'm done with paying for TV for awhile. In 10 months, the TiVo will have paid for itself. I'm now fully dependent on local OTA broadcasts for TV. Feels kind of good to dump that $78/month bill.

Jetlag - I don't think it uses PSIP data, and it will require you to subscribe for 1-3 years at 12.95-16.95/month, but the Series 3 TiVo is a great HD DVR for OTA use. And it's got 2 CableCard slots if you decide to subscribe to Comcast.
Sorry for being a bit grouchy, but I just found out that my pups have been eating that recalled dog food every morning for about the last month so I'm a tad concerned.
Sorry to hear that - hopefully the pooches will be OK.

I heard that sCARE is sending out a mailer begging for money. Anybody get one? (I'm not on their mailing list anymore - go figure?) They are grovelling to their Kool-aid drinkers to fund a 10th Amendment fight. They need (Are you sitting down) $450,000. !!!!!!!

You'd have to be a complete idiot to send them ten's of thousands of your hard earned savings to fight this ridiculous fight. Just curious if any of the sCARE board are going to take 2nd mortages out on their Lookout mansions!

------------

Same here, Jet, I hope your little guys are OK.

They need (Are you sitting down) $450,000. !!!!!!!


ROTFLMFAO!!! In the immortal words of Chris Rock (as Nat X) "Good lord that's a lot of money! How about I give you $2.80 and you give me your RF infested house!"

It figures they would try to fight this. In their minds if they win, the property value increases will offset the price of the court costs.

Or, the money is going toward the Deb Carney retirement fund.

-Matt

It's more likely the latter.

Somebody needs to sue that b!tch for misappropriations of funds or something! She's no better than the proverbial guy that tries to sell you swamp land in Florida!

Maybe this will help any Newbie's or Lurkers.

If you suddenly lose channels, the first thing to do is try a Re-scan for OTA channels. Even though it's been pretty stable the last year or two, before that it was crazy. Most stations on a weekly basis were changing their mapping. Testing/adding sub-channels etc. It would drive our OTA receivers crazy. Even to the point of some receivers wouldn't lock and others would.

Anyway, just try re-scanning first.
Re-scan worked for me to fix KWGN (mapping from 34 to 2-1). But this broke the mapping for 38 to 12-1! Luckily, my TV has 2 antenna inputs. At one point I had tried both inputs and had done a scan on both. I went ahead and moved the antenna to the other input without scanning and everything is working right now -- including the mapping of 38 to 12-1. I'm not sure why a scan would mess this up, when the station is clearly there and working.

I heard that sCARE is sending out a mailer begging for money. Anybody get one? (I'm not on their mailing list anymore - go figure?) They are grovelling to their Kool-aid drinkers to fund a 10th Amendment fight. They need (Are you sitting down) $450,000. !!!!!!!

At this point the county has approved the zoning change again. If the Supreme Court were to grant review of the case (which I doubt), the arguments would be years away and the opinion even later. By then the tower should be up and broadcasting, and unless Congress extends the analog shutoff again, DTV will be the only TV eminating from lookout mountain. The entire question will be moot.

Evidently fighting towers on Lookout is a way of life for some. From my perspective scare officials pretty much suffer from a complete lack of ethics so I wonder what they'll be saying about their chances of winning this 10th amendment fight. I wouldn't be surprised if they raise enough funds to continue but I wonder when their audience will figure out they've spent more money funding scare than what they would have made on increased property values if the towers were removed.

At this point the county has approved the zoning change again. If the Supreme Court were to grant review of the case (which I doubt), the arguments would be years away and the opinion even later. By then the tower should be up and broadcasting, and unless Congress extends the analog shutoff again, DTV will be the only TV eminating from lookout mountain. The entire question will be moot.

Perhaps they can convince a Federal judge to issue an injunction while the 10th Amendment case is being decided. I don't believe sCare can win the case because the Act was passed to enforce the Congressional DTV mandate.

Additionally, it was not sCare that had it's local authority usurped; it was Jefferson County. So, shouldn't the legal challenge be mounted by the county? Does sCare, a private organization, have a basis for legal action based on the 10th Amendment?
--- CHAS

http://home.earthlink.net/~lu_max/AVS/diamonds.jpg

Thanks TommyK for the response. It turns out that I can pick up KWGN-DT just fine. It's my TV that's been acting up... somehow it lost it's mapping from the actual channel 34 to virtual channel 2.1. I re-ran my "Program Channel" on the TV and it fixed the problem. Though now it won't map 38 to 12.1.... :mad:I've also got KWGN-DT back. All it took was a 2.5 inch antenna adjustment and it popped right back... the Game Of Inches routine.

http://home.earthlink.net/~lu_max/AVS/diamonds.jpgNice! UHForever will get a kick out of that.

I'm one of those "lurkers" who posts infrequently but I've been reading this thread with interest for the past year. I'm in an unusual situation compared to most because, instead of being a few miles east of Lookout Mountain, I'm 9 miles west. In fact, I drew a line using Topo software from my house to RP and found that the line virtually goes right over the Lookout Mountain towers. I can go into detail about my elevation (7900) and granite obstacles (mainly near Mt Vernon Country Club @7800 feet), but I should start by asking about directional broadcasting. Will the stations on the new tower leave me out of the digital revolution because I live 9.3 miles in the wrong direction?

Kbrick, Welcome!

When the new tower goes up. It will be high enough for many to get excellent reception to the west. Even if they use semi-directional antenna's.

Anyone else have Fox HD (31-1) go out tonight? It's been on "no signal" all night. And that is one of the strongest / best signals I was getting.

Fox HD was fine for me. Recorded 24 at 8:00pm. Don't know about earler.

Many posts and months ago, someone put up post-tower construction projected power for at least a couple of the LCG stations. It was well below the numbers in their FCC applications. Does anyone know what the projected power/ERP for each (or some) of the 4 will be, and possibly the directional percentages?

Thanks, Bill

Anyone else have Fox HD (31-1) go out tonight? It's been on "no signal" all night. And that is one of the strongest / best signals I was getting.

I recorded and watched 24 tonight as well (from 31-1).

Where can I buy a CM3021 locally? For a ~$30 antenna I don't want to spend $15 in shipping.

BTW, I got my HDTV for my 360.. and just happened to try out a bowtie antenna I had in the closet and was surprised to get 3-4 HD channels (CW2 & Fox31 + other non-main chanels.)

I tracked down one of those "arrowhead" "silver ??" antennas and it works no better than my bowtie. Therefore I'm reluctant to get the CM3021.. it might be no better than my "arrowhead."

Re-scan worked for me to fix KWGN (mapping from 34 to 2-1). But this broke the mapping for 38 to 12-1! Luckily, my TV has 2 antenna inputs. At one point I had tried both inputs and had done a scan on both. I went ahead and moved the antenna to the other input without scanning and everything is working right now -- including the mapping of 38 to 12-1. I'm not sure why a scan would mess this up, when the station is clearly there and working.
That was last night. I came home tonight and now 12-1 no longer works! The TV must be "rescanning" on it's own or something. If I look at the signal meter on 38, I can see that I'm getting a decent signal (85%) with signal lock. But it won't map to 12-1. Any clues??

I recorded and watched 24 tonight as well (from 31-1).Same here - 24 recorded just fine in HD from 31-1.

Where can I buy a CM3021 locally?I don't think there are any local dealers. Most of us have had to web-order it.

Kbrick, Welcome!

When the new tower goes up. It will be high enough for many to get excellent reception to the west. Even if they use semi-directional antenna's.

Thanks for the welcome!

I have an old antenna (ca 1988 when the house was built) on my roof pointed at Lookout which receives VHF with no problem. It also picks up KBDI over on Squaw Peak, but I haven't run a permanent line into the house because DirecTV has taken over my television (much like the Outer Limits, they control both the horizontal and the vertical). Until I can confirm that I can pick up a digital signal from Lookout, I'm not planning on running a line from the antenna into the house simply for analog SD and KBDI's digital SD broadcast.

One thing that does concern me a bit is that I can't pick up Fox or any other UHF from Lookout, but that may simply be because my old antenna is VHF only.

Out of curiosity I wonder how many of you have seen TV antennas installed backwards? In my old neighborhood while out walking my dogs it became sort of a hobby to see what folks were using on their rooftops for reception. I can't tell you the number of times that I saw antennas that were pointing directly away from RP/Lookout! :rolleyes:

I doubt that anyone on this thread would be confused about this but I was quite surprised by the number I found just within a few blocks of my house. Now if there were transmitters in the E-SE part of Denver it would make sense, but pointing your antenna east when you live east of downtown isn't going to help a whole lot.

BTW to avoid any potential embarrassment :o in the photo below the transmitters should be located in the direction of the upper right part of this photo and NOT in the lower left! Antennas are not like arrows, you don't point them in the 'aerodynamic' direction. ;) For Denver the UHF portion (the "vertical V" portion which "opens" toward the right side of this antenna MUST point toward Lookout/RP or your reception is doomed.

Now, does anyone on this thread have the guts to come forward and admit your antenna is installed the wrong way? :)

http://www.solidsignal.com/images/products/ANCM3017_zoom.gif

See, I told you that I can occasionally be helpful!

Out of curiosity I wonder how many of you have seen TV antennas installed backwards? In my old neighborhood while out walking my dogs it became sort of a hobby to see what folks were using on their rooftops for reception. I can't tell you the number of times that I saw antennas that were pointing directly away from RP/Lookout! :rolleyes:

I doubt that anyone on this thread would be confused about this but I was quite surprised by the number I found just within a few blocks of my house. Now if there were transmitters in the E-SE part of Denver it would make sense, but pointing your antenna east when you live east of downtown isn't going to help a whole lot.

BTW to avoid any potential embarrassment :o in the photo below the transmitters should be located in the direction of the upper right part of this photo and NOT in the lower left! Antennas are not like arrows, you don't point them in the 'aerodynamic' direction. ;) For Denver the UHF portion (the "vertical V" portion which "opens" toward the right side of this antenna MUST point toward Lookout/RP or your reception is doomed.

Now, does anyone on this thread have the guts to come forward and admit your antenna is installed the wrong way? :)

See, I told you that I can occasionally be helpful!

I point mine in the 'wrong way' in Fort Collins/Loveland because I get channels out of Cheyenne and East of Fort Collins that I can't get from LOM.

I point mine in the 'wrong way' in Fort Collins/Loveland because I get channels out of Cheyenne and East of Fort Collins that I can't get from LOM.
Hmmm, maybe you need an antenna that points both ways?. Not that there is anything wrong with that..... :D

Does any manufacturer make such a thing?

My neighbor two doors away has his antenna pointed backwards. It has a rotor, so he can change direction easily. I know he doesn't have cable or satellite but does have an HD TV with a Samsung tuner, so it must work OK for him.

Many posts and months ago, someone put up post-tower construction projected power for at least a couple of the LCG stations. It was well below the numbers in their FCC applications. Does anyone know what the projected power/ERP for each (or some) of the 4 will be, and possibly the directional percentages?

You can go to www.http://www.fcc.gov/mb/video/tvq.html and put in each station's call sign. Click on "Service Contour Map (41 dBu)" to see the coverage maps. The FCC database does not show what the power levels will be for KMGH or KUSA when they go back to channels 7 and 9 respectively after analog shutoff. Since they will be on VHF-hi, I believe they will be limited to 65 kW ERP. If someone knows where that info is, perhaps they can post a link.

Hmmm, maybe you need an antenna that points both ways?. Not that there is anything wrong with that..... :D

Does any manufacturer make such a thing?

I actually had two of them on the other house. One pointing north and one south and it worked about as well as can be expected. This new tower can't come online soon enough for us up north.

Out of curiosity I wonder how many of you have seen TV antennas installed backwards? When I bought my house, I found the previous owner had an antenna in the garage, pointing backwards. I think lots of people mistakenly think the antenna needs to "point to" the station.

Even so, most of the stations had decent reception with the antenna mispointed. From what I've read, most antenna designs have a significant gain lobe 180 degrees off the main lobe.

From what I've read, most antenna designs have a significant gain lobe 180 degrees off the main lobe.

:) I resemble that remark. I have a cheapo RatShack yagi pointed south, but still gets Channel 5 in Cheyenne "off the back-side". Just wish I could get more than Ch. 2 out of Denver.

Build LCG, BUILD!

A few weeks ago I sent a note to the LCG on the HDTV page asking if there was any possibility that KRMA 6 would rejoin the LCG to mount an antenna on the newly approved tower. No breaking news here, but I thought I would post it anyway. Here is the reply.


You wrote: Is there any plan to bring KRMA back to the LCG tower now that Congress has allowed the build?


Thanks for your submission to the hdtvcolorado.com website. First, forgive the delay in responding to your submission to hdtvcolorado.com. We have been receiving many questions about the project. Given the volume of inquiries, it has taken a little time to reply to each and every inquiry. Please accept our apologies. We will do our best to answer your question.

There is not a plan to include KRMA on the consolidated tower. While Rocky Mountain PBS was at one time a member of the Lake Cedar Group, they chose to go their own way several years ago. Lake Cedar is committed to doing its part to reduce the number of towers on Lookout Mountain. Presently there are no plans to include any stations other than channels 4, 7, 9 and 20.

Let us know if you have any other questions.

The Lake Cedar Group


I still wonder what KRMA plans to do now. The last plan they proposed was to broadcast from the top of the RP, which of course, will be the wrong direction from 80% of the OTA antennas likely to be in place in the metro area.

If I wanted to drive up Lookout to get as close as legally possible to the construction, where would I go? I have a pretty good guess from looking at Google maps, but I figure I'll ask, just to be sure.

Now, does anyone on this thread have the guts to come forward and admit your antenna is installed the wrong way? :)
!
Well I cannot admit to this, but I can relate a story. This is a guy who is a high end tehcno weenie. He has been involved in more than a few projects to get WAN connectivity between Denver and many outlying areas of the country, often using Satellite, and been successful!! He recently got a 42" LCD HDTV and subscribed to D*. He asked me if he should be able to get OTA Denver from out in Parker. I said, likely YES. He said he had an RS VU 190 up at 60 feet AGL, but could get nothing, Then asked "which end of the antenna should point there". I said "the small end with the 90 degree corner reflector pointing at the station....
He said... DAMN, it it backwards...
Nough said!
HEHEHEHEHE...
Happens to the best...and smartest...of us!

Phil P.

If I wanted to drive up Lookout to get as close as legally possible to the construction, where would I go? I have a pretty good guess from looking at Google maps, but I figure I'll ask, just to be sure.Just head west and look for the big tall towers. Bada-Boom! Seriously, easiest way... I-70 West, Exit 256, turn left and head west on the service road (Hwy 40) about 1 mile, Turn right on S. Lookout Mt. Road. That takes you right to the tower area.

But be careful, LCG does have guards 24/7 watching out for NIMBY terrorists.

So, my new HD LCD arrives later this week and DTV gets upgraded in early April. Do I have any hope of getting OTA HD from any of the Denver stations up here in Fort Collins or am I going to have to wait till the tower is finally done?

Sorry if this has been answered before. It's too tough trying to wade through all the political discussions.

Thanks.

If I wanted to drive up Lookout to get as close as legally possible to the construction, where would I go? I have a pretty good guess from looking at Google maps, but I figure I'll ask, just to be sure.
You can probably do better, but I was at Buffalo Bill's grave not too long ago, and about halfway up the path from the parking lot to the actual grave, there's a viewpoint where I could see the construction equipment working.

When I bought my house, I found the previous owner had an antenna in the garage, pointing backwards. I think lots of people mistakenly think the antenna needs to "point to" the station.

Even so, most of the stations had decent reception with the antenna mispointed. From what I've read, most antenna designs have a significant gain lobe 180 degrees off the main lobe.

"GATHER"....that's the word. Have the antenna "extend it's arms and GATHER" the signal. That's what I tell 'em!

So, my new HD LCD arrives later this week and DTV gets upgraded in early April. Do I have any hope of getting OTA HD from any of the Denver stations up here in Fort Collins or am I going to have to wait till the tower is finally done?

Sorry if this has been answered before. It's too tough trying to wade through all the political discussions.

Thanks.

Have you read through the Northern Colorado thread?

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=199726

Do I have any hope of getting OTA HD from any of the Denver stations up here in Fort Collins or am I going to have to wait till the tower is finally done?I'm sure some other northern exposure guys will chime in, but I think you can get 2 & 31 from Lookout. Then you can also get KGWN from Cheyenne and maybe another. I think there is a seperate thread for Cheyenne that might give you the latest info.

I foudn this in the Loveland paper this week. I also posted in the Northern CO thread. Anyone else hear about this or did I completely miss it....

"KGWN’s tower is 11 miles from the Colorado state line, and last week the station upped the power from 50,000 watts to 450,000 watts, meaning a television with a rabbit-ear antenna should be able to pick up this digital signal all the way down to Highway E-470."

Where can I buy a CM3021 locally? For a ~$30 antenna I don't want to spend $15 in shipping.

BTW, I got my HDTV for my 360.. and just happened to try out a bowtie antenna I had in the closet and was surprised to get 3-4 HD channels (CW2 & Fox31 + other non-main chanels.)

I tracked down one of those "arrowhead" "silver ??" antennas and it works no better than my bowtie. Therefore I'm reluctant to get the CM3021.. it might be no better than my "arrowhead."

I got my 3021 at Ace Hardware a couple of years ago. I don't have any idea if they still carry them, though.

I ordered my CM 4228 from Solid Signal (http://www.solidsignal.com/antennas/) and had it in 6 days with regular shipping.

I ordered my CM 4228 from Solid Signal (http://www.solidsignal.com/antennas/) and had it in 6 days with regular shipping.I got one about a year ago from http://www.warrenelectronics.com/

You have to call them to get the shipping cost, but it ended up a LOT cheaper than SS.

Where can I buy a CM3021 locally? For a ~$30 antenna I don't want to spend $15 in shipping.

BTW, I got my HDTV for my 360.. and just happened to try out a bowtie antenna I had in the closet and was surprised to get 3-4 HD channels (CW2 & Fox31 + other non-main chanels.)

I tracked down one of those "arrowhead" "silver ??" antennas and it works no better than my bowtie. Therefore I'm reluctant to get the CM3021.. it might be no better than my "arrowhead."

I also bought one from ACE hardware. They let me order it from their in-store catalog and I didn't have to pay shipping!

If I wanted to drive up Lookout to get as close as legally possible to the construction, where would I go? I have a pretty good guess from looking at Google maps, but I figure I'll ask, just to be sure.
If you do make the trip up there, please post some photos of the progress please!

When I bought my house, I found the previous owner had an antenna in the garage, pointing backwards. I think lots of people mistakenly think the antenna needs to "point to" the station.

Even so, most of the stations had decent reception with the antenna mispointed. From what I've read, most antenna designs have a significant gain lobe 180 degrees off the main lobe.

I'm actually considering turning my antenna around (putting it up backwards) once LCG starts broadcasting from Lookout. I'm hoping that by doing this I can also get Cheyenne and that the LCG stations will still boom in the back side of my antenna.

JJ Update.

I was curious, so I just called his office. The clerk told me he just set a new date of 3/27 to submit any last information to his office. Then, he will review that and rule. Also, it could take a minimum of 18 days to do research (if needed) after that date. So guys, she said don't count on a final ruling from JJ until at least the 1st or 2nd week of April.

Have you read through the Northern Colorado thread?

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=199726


No. I guess I missed that. Thanks for the link. :)

JJ Update.

I was curious, so I just called his office. The clerk told me he just set a new date of 3/27 to submit any last information to his office. Then, he will review that and rule. Also, it could take a minimum of 18 days to do research (if needed) after than date. So guys, she said don't count on a final ruling from JJ until at least the 1st or 2nd week of April.
Looks like JJ works at the same 'speedy' pace as the Jefco BOCC folks. That must be why he never complained about how long it took them to respond.

Looks like JJ works at the same 'speedy' pace as the Jefco BOCC folks. That must be why he never complained about how long it took them to respond.
I'm beginning to wonder if the dude is comatose. Deb shows up an hour early, props him up in his chair, and she gets the desired result.

I also bought one from ACE hardware. They let me order it from their in-store catalog and I didn't have to pay shipping!

Thank you. I'll look into that.

If you do make the trip up there, please post some photos of the progress please!

Thanks for the directions dr_mal and Ernie - I will probably try to head down one of the roads to the east of Lookout Mtn/Lariat Loop (like Cedar Lake or Aspen Rd., assuming they're paved) to try to get closer. I plan to be on my bike, but my digital camera is small, so I might just bring it along.

Too bad this this story came out before sCARE could have concocked it...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=443717&in_page_id=1770

Thanks for the directions dr_mal and Ernie - I will probably try to head down one of the roads to the east of Lookout Mtn/Lariat Loop (like Cedar Lake or Aspen Rd., assuming they're paved) to try to get closer. I plan to be on my bike, but my digital camera is small, so I might just bring it along.

I took the first main road south of Lake Cedar Road, went east and just kept heading toward the tower. You will eventually find a road (marked 'private' as I recall) that winds around and gives you a view right into the tower base, all the dishes and etc. I don't recall the names...I'll see if I can google earth them. Do bring some pictures!

Tim

Boy, looks like I can kill a thread!

At any rate, I google-earthed it and it is Lookout Mountain Road north (assuming you are coming from I-70), left on Main all the way around to SkyMeadow Lane, then left on sky meadow and keep bearing left and watch to your left. At the closest point you will be within a quarter mile of the construction.

Tim

While you're up there, grab some pictures of the palatial Mansion of the Carney Law firm too. I wonder if there's a For Sale sign up yet. ;)

If I were her I would wait. Property values will increase after those old ugly towers are gone and replaced by one nice new one.. that 'mountain backdrop' will not have been preserved, it will be improved.

Or should I have said ' If I were she' ? Any English teachers out there?

--- CHAS

How about "If I was her....."

How about "If I was her....."
You wouldn't be able to live with yourself. :p
....jc

I was driving home tonight and from 6th ave when I looked up at LOM, you can see quite a bit of new construction going on. There's broken ground all over the new tower site location. And they have a huge spot covered with that 'fake green' material they put on construction sites to either help drainage or for plant growth to start.

Now, when's the BLASTING begin? ;)

Now, when's the BLASTING begin? ;)
I'm not sure there is even going to be any blasting. Do they even need to go underground anymore? Wasn't that in LCG 2003 just to try to appease the BOCC? If they are planning on being on air inside of 12 months, I was thinking maybe everything was going in above ground.

I'm not sure there is even going to be any blasting. Do they even need to go underground anymore?
Yea, if deuces were wild, and you held 4 of them and the ace of spades, would you spend more than you needed?

Now, I would add a little to the budget for the outhouse, it's important. But constructing a reduced visibility building, ain't worth it.
....jc

So I'm listening to 99.5 The Mountain today and I hear this promo saying...

"99.5 The Mountain, now coming to you digitally from Lookout Mountain!"

I guess now the word 'digital' is not a no-no anymore since Georgie B signed the law and sCARE can't do a damn thing about it.

Article (http://www.canyoncourier.com/story_display.php?sid=5095) in the canyoncourier.

Thanks for the link Leonard.

My take from the article is that they are looking to limit or at least gain some level of control over future tower construction on Lookout but it will not affect the current construction. Also I think ammending any Federal law normally takes an appreciable amount of time (unless of course it is 'critically important').

I am not at all knowledgeable about the process or timeline typically involved in a matter such as this. Anyone care to enlighten the rest of us?

Oh and finally, my Winegard PR-4400 continues to give me excellent reception from the E Cherry Creek area. ;)

(edit) One final thought, how much money was (s)CARE able to raise with that last mailing and did the proceeds end up in someone's campaign fund?

Well, the pictures didn't turn out so good. None of those side roads appeared to be paved, and some were pretty muddy, and my skinny-tire bike didn't want to go that way. The disturbed earth and green covering Ernie mentioned is quite visible from the Taj area. One of the shots I posted was from the side. The second picture probably isn't anything related to the tower, but if it's not, then someone is building a new house despite all of the dangerous radiation.

I read the article and I think there is some merit to an argument contending the law allows the broadcasters too much freedom to do whatever they wish. If you think about it, they are not being held to any standards regulating the quality of their work. The law should have included language that requires them to meet current accepted industry standards for their structures .. no one except sCare would believe that LCG would spend so much money building a substandard facility. However, for the record, this issue needs clarification.

I have thought LCG to be somewhat arrogant proceeding with construction before Judge Jackson lifted his injunction. But with this talk of more political discussions and public hearings, its obvious they cannot wait while every new issue plays out. The clock is ticking toward 2009.

--- CHAS

Remember the old saying "Posession is 9/10's of the law"? Well, if the tower is up and runnin' and LCG can drag-out (using that sCARE tactic they've used so well) all legal fights until after the tower is up and NTSC is turned off, it'll be much harder for a judge to disenfranchise the entire front range. Including all the poor, elderly, residents. How could he possibly take away their only lifeline to deadly weather & homeland security emergency notifications? That judge would be stoned.

If there's a more appropriate thread/forum, can someone point me to it?

We're moving into a new-to-us house in north Longmont, up in the 21st/Hover area. No mast on the house (no masts on any nearby houses--I'm afraid the neighbors are going to see our antenna and scream :eek: ). Anyway, we need to install our lovely UHF antenna which has been doing a decent job for us at our old house (also Longmont), and we'd like to put up our VHF/UHF combo as well, for whatever channels don't come through in HD.

Do we try the attic first, or go straight for the roof mount? And if roof, is a tripod better/easier, or an eaves mount? I like the idea of not drilling through my roof, and I read somewhere that a 3' tripod can't handle anything bigger than an 80" antenna, so while that would work for our UHF-only, we'd need a bigger tripod for our combo.

I'm starting to see why folks go for cable or D*.

-Sarah

If there's a more appropriate thread/forum, can someone point me to it?
Well there is an antenna topic, but who cares(prolly the mod :o ).

And, the neighbors can't do jack about your antenna, except piss and moan.

Personally, I'd send someone up on the roof(uh, with the antenna :p ) and see what you can pick up. If the reception is lousy, it won't work better in the attic. If it's good, then try the attic.

They do make non-penetrating mounts(ask Jetlag) but they prolly only work on flat roofs. If they don't make a sturdy enough tripod, you may need to go with a strong mast and guy wires. Oh, the joy.

Just remember it's free!
....jc

Don't forget that they also make chimney mounts that consist of a couple of metal straps that wrap around the chimney, no holes to drill. My bro-in-law mounted his VHF/UHF antenna this way and it has not budged. We put that up over 2 years ago. These also keep your antenna up quite high.

Question; is it required to ground an antenna if it is inside the attic?

Did anyone see the "crawl" on KUSA tonight during Grease? When they ran it (an Amber Alert), I lost my picture but not my sound OTA. It's kind of ironic that most stations that run crawls can only do it in SD, so they switch off the HD feed. KUSA can run crawls in 16x9 format, but they shut down an SD program.

If anyone is interested, on the NBC Nightly News on Friday, they announced that they will start HD broadcasts of the program beginning tomorrow.

An Jetlag, it is my understanding that you do not have to ground an antenna in the attic. The purpose of a ground is to provide a path for the release of static electricity that can build up on an ungrounded antenna (mainly from the wind) outside. There is no wind in the attic (unless the vents are REALLY good!).

Pro tower letter in the RMN today.

http://blogs.rockymountainnews.com/denver/letters/2007/03/thanks_jeffco.html#more

Don't forget that they also make chimney mounts that consist of a couple of metal straps that wrap around the chimney, no holes to drill. My bro-in-law mounted his VHF/UHF antenna this way and it has not budged. We put that up over 2 years ago. These also keep your antenna up quite high.

Question; is it required to ground an antenna if it is inside the attic?

My understanding is you do not have to ground an antenna inside the attic. But I could be wrong.

I'll look into the chimney mount, although currently the chimney I can think of on the roof is the one for the water heater and furnace (they share a chimney run, I think), and since there's water leaking in around it... Gotta love those new-to-you houses. :rolleyes: Anyway, we'll have to fix the water leak, and when we do that, we can make sure it's a strong mount.

So do you basically strap the mast to the chimney?

-Sarah

OK, this little problem I'm having hasn't gone away, so I'd like to see what the experts have to say about it. (Haven't read anything here about it, though I could have missed it)

I'm using a Zenith HDV420 receiver for OTA HDTV stations. Whenever I go to channel 6-1, it craps out. By that, I mean the picture totally disappears, and the readout on the front says "WAIT", then "NO SIGNAL." The only way to fix this is to change to another channel (still no picture), unplug it, and plug it back in. Any ideas? This just started happening out of nowhere 2 or 3 weeks ago. Before that I never had any problem, and could always get all the channels, including 6-1.

Jeremy, How's your reception? Powerful or at the threshold of OK? It could be that when it loses signal strength, it locks it up. Remember, it's spring and trees are starting or maybe your antenna moved a bit, all those things effect reception. My older Dish OTV receiver would lock-up when it lost signals.

OK, this little problem I'm having hasn't gone away, so I'd like to see what the experts have to say about it. (Haven't read anything here about it, though I could have missed it)

I'm using a Zenith HDV420 receiver for OTA HDTV stations. Whenever I go to channel 6-1, it craps out. By that, I mean the picture totally disappears, and the readout on the front says "WAIT", then "NO SIGNAL." The only way to fix this is to change to another channel (still no picture), unplug it, and plug it back in. Any ideas? This just started happening out of nowhere 2 or 3 weeks ago. Before that I never had any problem, and could always get all the channels, including 6-1.


Jeremy,

It might have something to do with the fact that once KRMA added the dreaded PBS spanish language subchannel that remaps to 6-2 a few weeks back, they kinda created a mess. My receiver now thinks it gets a ton of other subchannels from KRMA (18-3 through 18-14, as well as some additional garbage in the 100's range). In short, me receiver has been having a REALLY tough time with KRMA ever since a few weeks ago when they added the spanish subchannel, and didn't clean up the rest of their mess. This might be what you are encountering as well.

Ernie, I'd have to check again, but I think KRMA has always been strong. I just use a pair of bunny ears sitting on the back of my TV. ;) I'll try repositioning it, but I think it must be something else, as it acts really weird just on that station.

UHForever, if they just did that a few weeks ago, then that must be what is screwing it up. Maybe I'll send them an email and see what they think. Seems really odd that it would only have this effect on my receiver, and screw it up so bad. It is a pretty old one though, I bought it for a measly $50 from a fellow AVSer.

If there's a more appropriate thread/forum, can someone point me to it?

We're moving into a new-to-us house in north Longmont, up in the 21st/Hover area. No mast on the house (no masts on any nearby houses--I'm afraid the neighbors are going to see our antenna and scream :eek: ). Anyway, we need to install our lovely UHF antenna which has been doing a decent job for us at our old house (also Longmont), and we'd like to put up our VHF/UHF combo as well, for whatever channels don't come through in HD.

Do we try the attic first, or go straight for the roof mount? And if roof, is a tripod better/easier, or an eaves mount? I like the idea of not drilling through my roof, and I read somewhere that a 3' tripod can't handle anything bigger than an 80" antenna, so while that would work for our UHF-only, we'd need a bigger tripod for our combo.

I'm starting to see why folks go for cable or D*.


-Sarah


I'm not far from where you'll be (18th and Spencer). I just have my antenna on a 6 foot pole in my back yard. I do have a good line of sight to RP though. You might want to try your antenna in a bunch of places before you secure it. I've found that height is not that vital in our area, unless there is something blocking you that you need to get over. We are slightly down angle so I point my antenna slightly upward. You should be able to get everything from RP, Lookout, KGWN from Cheyenne and a few others if you have a good line. I get everything except KGWN and KBDI by pointing at RP.

Sean

So do you basically strap the mast to the chimney?
Sort of. Scroll down about half way on THIS PAGE (http://www.hometech.com/video/antmount.html) to the chiney mount. On the photo is an arrow that will show additional photos of what it looks like when it is installed.

My understanding is you do not have to ground an antenna inside the attic. But I could be wrong.

I'll look into the chimney mount, although currently the chimney I can think of on the roof is the one for the water heater and furnace (they share a chimney run, I think), and since there's water leaking in around it... Gotta love those new-to-you houses. :rolleyes: Anyway, we'll have to fix the water leak, and when we do that, we can make sure it's a strong mount.

So do you basically strap the mast to the chimney?

-Sarah

You are not required by the NEC to ground an indoor/attic antenna. However, it won't hurt anything if you do. I ground the long coax runs from my attic antennas with one of those little coax grounding blocks that are typically used to provide the ground for the coax run from a rooftop antenna, just before it enters the house. I have my grounding block located on one of the basement joists, just before the coax runs up through the floor and up inside the wall to my family room for my HDTV setup. I run a ground wire from the grounding block to the cold water supply line, not far from where it enters the basement from outside underground. Not necessary, but what the heck.

FWIW, be aware that chimney mounts are designed for structural rigid chimney, like the old brick and mortar kind. Do not use one on a simple wood frame chimney enclosure like those on many modern homes. They are not designed to handle any significant lateral loads. Using a chimney mount on one of them with a large and/or tall antenna could cause severe damage to your chimney in a typical metro wind storm.

Interesting story about the FCC on a new OTA use.

http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/070327/fcc_internet_device.html?.v=1

This use of White Space (vacant spectrum between channels) proposal has be in debate for quite a while. I'm not quite sure what the parties who want to sell the 'device' really intend to accomplish. It appears to be some sort of data service for which they will send you yet another monthly bill.

Some time ago, the FCC asked for comments about the design for a 'device'. That request asked for comments about every imaginable technical and legal question. I was favorably impressed with their insight into the matter. With certainty, I knew the questions would be answered positively because this thing has congressional horsepower moving it. And, how can one win an argument against technical innovation?

There have been several proposals concerning how the 'device' will determine where white space is. One proposal was an embedded GPS receiver to fix the 'device' position and a database for lookup of active channels at that location.. obviously too complex. I believe the final proposed 'device' will scan for white space.

Then there is a debate about licensed vs Part 15 operating authority. I'll vote for Part 15 because the operators will then have to accept any interference to service without legal recourse.

Of course, the sellers want these things in the stores now. I'll vote for these things to enter service after the digital transition when white space areas have been actually defined.

I'm not against the use of white space so long as the technology works and the FCC will protect the OTA viewers from any interference these 'devices' cause. Zero interference must be the standard.

--- CHAS

Al's on a rant on the RMN web Blog.

http://blogs.rockymountainnews.com/denver/letters/2007/03/tower_foes_need_to_better_expl.html#more

Was in Home Depot this PM. As I walked out, I noticed a display for a Magnavox 42" LCD TV. The box stated it had an "ATSC/WAM" tuner.

And a nice reply, Ernie...

Any news on JJ's rulling? I thought the last report said it would be sometime this week.

# Matt

Not yet.

JJ set a deadline of this past Tuesday for the parties to submit any last documents. Then he has up to 18 days (Calender/work days????) to do research. We most likely won't hear any news until at least next week or the week after. Maybe Wabisabi will post the news when something happens out there.

I apologize for asking this, but I've been away from this thread for some time. What is it that JJ is to rule on? Isn't the whole issue a done deal now? And how did LCG get the permits to begin work if there are still legal issues pending in the court?

FN,

LCG is working under the President's law that JeffCo no longer has any control over the tower site. LCG did go to JJ to request he lift the official injunction, now that its moot. It was a smart thing do to clean-up the legal mess and finalize the situation. Especially now that the law and the Jeffco Commissioners have signed off on it. Makes it harder for sCARE to fight now that JeffCo is on board.

Does anybody know why my old Sony SAT-200 receiver is looping over and over the "creating channel list?" I unplugged it overnight but the problem persists.

Does anyone know if any of the Rockies games broadcast on My20 will be offered in HD OTA?. This press release from January is a little vague on the topic.

http://colorado.rockies.mlb.com/news/press_releases/press_release.jsp?ymd=20070123&content_id=1785017&vkey=pr_col&fext=.jsp&c_id=col

Please, no "who cares?" posts ;) ;)

Does anyone know if any of the Rockies games broadcast on My20 will be offered in HD OTA?. This press release from January is a little vague on the topic.

http://colorado.rockies.mlb.com/news/press_releases/press_release.jsp?ymd=20070123&content_id=1785017&vkey=pr_col&fext=.jsp&c_id=col

Please, no "who cares?" posts ;) ;)

My20 can certainly broadcast HD so it would depend on the production company doing the games. I know that doesn't answer your question, I'm just saying the channel would not be the limiting factor.

I guess they still haven't released the details of which 63 games were going to be broadcast in HD (last line of the press release). It would be nice for those without cable to be able to get those games OTA.

Interesting story about the FCC on a new OTA use.

http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/070327/fcc_internet_device.html?.v=1

What they are talking about is "Neighborhood TV Jammer Devices". It's a way for Microsoft and others to place data transmitters on your neighbors' rooftops and balcony railings and let them transmit in the so-called "white spaces", i.e.: the "electronic fire-lanes" and "RF set-backs", that, like their real-estate equivalents, provide safety and interference protection between channels. It's very likely that these devices will cause many people to abandon OTA television, since there will be so many cases of unpredictable "failure" of their sets to receive OTA, due to intermodulation and front-end overload caused by these nearby "medium-powered" "stations". Also, say goodbye to wireless microphones.

Of course, with this same mentality, we could eliminate all zoning restrictions, and place one of the towers in the middle of Deb's backyard hot tub :) .

I'm not far from where you'll be (18th and Spencer). I just have my antenna on a 6 foot pole in my back yard. I do have a good line of sight to RP though. You might want to try your antenna in a bunch of places before you secure it. I've found that height is not that vital in our area, unless there is something blocking you that you need to get over. We are slightly down angle so I point my antenna slightly upward. You should be able to get everything from RP, Lookout, KGWN from Cheyenne and a few others if you have a good line. I get everything except KGWN and KBDI by pointing at RP.

Sean

Thanks. Sorry to go silent all week, we were ... heh... moving. Anyway, we're in the new house now, but haven't done jack about the antenna. I still own the old house, so I still have my MythTV box there, and UHF antenna, recording things until I can play around here.

I did bring the 160" combo over to the new house, and I think we'll see what we can do with that. Clearly not a chimney mount, since all we actually have is a vent pipe--no chimney, not even a wooden one.

Sean, thanks for the info about height--I'm moving from old town (9th and Francis), where there were lots of mature trees, and a 1-story house, so height mattered. Useful to know it's less important here. You say your antenna is in your back yard--so your backyard has a southern exposure? My house faces south, I'm assuming I'll want to be either in the attic, or on the roof--the backyard would be blocked by the entire house. Is this a bad assumption?

-Sarah

Thanks. Sorry to go silent all week, we were ... heh... moving. Anyway, we're in the new house now, but haven't done jack about the antenna. I still own the old house, so I still have my MythTV box there, and UHF antenna, recording things until I can play around here.

I did bring the 160" combo over to the new house, and I think we'll see what we can do with that. Clearly not a chimney mount, since all we actually have is a vent pipe--no chimney, not even a wooden one.

Sean, thanks for the info about height--I'm moving from old town (9th and Francis), where there were lots of mature trees, and a 1-story house, so height mattered. Useful to know it's less important here. You say your antenna is in your back yard--so your backyard has a southern exposure? My house faces south, I'm assuming I'll want to be either in the attic, or on the roof--the backyard would be blocked by the entire house. Is this a bad assumption?

-Sarah

My house actually faces west. My backyard fence is almost directly in line with RP. I just shoot my antenna down the fence between all the houses. I did have it up high at one point, but it was a pain to work on it. The last time I took it down I decided to test it in the backyard. It worked so I just left it.

Try on either side of the house first. Is anything blocking you to the south? If there is, you might have to go up higher. Try it on the ground first to see what you get. Have somebody on a phone or something looking at your signal meter while your moving the antenna around. Your assumption about the backyard is probably right, but I've seen weirder things. As long as you can point slightly upward and to the south with no blockages, you should be alright.

My house actually faces west. My backyard fence is almost directly in line with RP. I just shoot my antenna down the fence between all the houses. I did have it up high at one point, but it was a pain to work on it. The last time I took it down I decided to test it in the backyard. It worked so I just left it.

Try on either side of the house first. Is anything blocking you to the south? If there is, you might have to go up higher. Try it on the ground first to see what you get. Have somebody on a phone or something looking at your signal meter while your moving the antenna around. Your assumption about the backyard is probably right, but I've seen weirder things. As long as you can point slightly upward and to the south with no blockages, you should be alright.

I think we'll try it, anyway. We can go over the fence on either side of the house... but I doubt we'll be able to get a clear shot all the way south. I think we'll "hit" another house across the street. Anyway, it's certainly worth a try. Thanks for the idea!

-Sarah

I think we'll try it, anyway. We can go over the fence on either side of the house... but I doubt we'll be able to get a clear shot all the way south. I think we'll "hit" another house across the street. Anyway, it's certainly worth a try. Thanks for the idea!

-Sarah
It is definitely worth a try. My own setup here in Boulder is an outdoor antenna 'temporarily' lashed to a post on my outside deck (for the last 4 or 5 years). Line of sight it looks straight in to some trees and at about the roof level of a house about a half block away, yet I get great reception on all the RP channels. If the house is not too close, the signal will likely skip around it enough for you to receive it. I am using the RShack UHF only array, so it is not a real 'high end' antenna either.

My own setup here in Boulder is an outdoor antenna 'temporarily' lashed to a post on my outside deck (for the last 4 or 5 years)..Same here, although mine has only been up for 3.5 years. At that time I was able to tell my wife that the Jeffco BOC had approved the new tower and so I would only need the antenna outside for a year. I have a CM4228 on a mast lashed to my backyard deck, aimed SE through the gap between my house and my neighbors; my neighbor has one tree which might be in the way, but it's a good 50 yards away. Downtown Denver is just barely under the horizon; the skyscrapers are clearly visible from a hill behind my house which is 100 feet higher elevation.

I am also able to pick up the Lookout Mountain stations with this setup, even though the antenna is pointed downtown and the LOS to Lookout is blocked by my house.