I agree about the reduction in quality of locals over satellite. That's the reason I've kept my OTA DVR active which I mainly use to record programs on KRMA.

Depending on your Dish receiver, if you've an antenna feed you can hook it up to the receiver and bypass the Sat signal and watch the OTA signal instead. So exactly how was it you got Dish to NOT charge for HD?

BTW, still wish you guys could find a way to allocate more bandwidth to 6-1.

I simply called Dish, and asked for an HD package deal similar to what is being offered to new subscribers, which I was not.

After repeatedly asking for yet another higher level supervisor I was given an HD package that was similar to what I had, minus the Sirius/XM channels, but including the regional sports channels: Roots (Fox Rocky Mtn) and Altitude. I think I spoke with 4 different folks at Dish.

I monitor Comcast daily, and the compression is less of a visual factor than at Dish.

BTW, still wish you guys could find a way to allocate more bandwidth to 6-1.

Me, too. For the most part, RMPBS is unable to take advantage of variable bit rate encoding, also known as statistical multiplexing, or stat-muxing. Instead, fixed bit-rates are utilized.

RMPBS has three regional feeds of its iconic channel, three regional feeds each of PBS' V-me and Create, and three regional feeds of Audio Information Network of Colorado. Plus, the Update TV/Update Logic service fed through KRMA-Denver and KTSC-Pueblo. Multiple encoders are utilized in series, and that's where the inability to take advantage of stat-muxing comes in to play. If one encoder were used to handle all the signals then stat-muxing could have a chance of being of value -- maybe.

RMPBS allocates about 12.5 mbps for the iconic HD channel, and about 2.5 mpbs for the two SD channels, V-me and Create. Not all programs aired are native HD, and are upconverted. There is certainly some residual artifact from that process. The native HD programs look good, but certainly not like they would if 17 or 18 mpbs were allocated.

TC AVS

Second, Fort Collins locals. I see (but not well) the brand-new-to-me Daystar repeater, KDNF-LP, at RF 44. It's north of town and also trying to hit Cheyenne, so I do far better with RF 40. I am also getting quite a solid signal on Ion's new-to-me KPXH-LP RF 25, coming better than KRMA's RF 47. All very interesting ...

Rob T

Rob:
Do you mind listing a major intersection near where you live? I am interested in the KRMA signal coming off of Horsetooth.

TC AVS

. This glitch may have "confuzzled" your tuner. If so, re-scanning should clear it up. If a simple scan doesn't do it, try a double re-scan by following these instructions (http://dtv.gov/rescan.html).

I cannot overstate the value of double scanning. I make "house calls" about once a month, and take many viewer calls regarding signal reception. Often I am told that a rescan does not pick up a desired channel that USED to be be available, and that's when I initiate the double scan procedure.

As far as Baculite Mesa reaching in to Canon City, there is a 400-foot rise in elevation between the tower sight and the center of town. Depending upon tower height, and antenna contours, one could imagine weak signals reaching in to some of the area.

It is worth inquiring to see if an already assigned translator is being under-utilized, and could be FCC-permitted to serve Canon City. It would require an OTA pickup site just south of Florence with a 200' tower, from which KTSC's OTA signal could be received, and rebroadcast. If folks from Canon City are aware of such a site, I would suggest calling KTSC in Pueblo and putting the folks there in contact with the site owner. Good ideas generate conversation, which sometimes lead to changes.

Areas south of the river in Canon City may have a better chance of getting clear Cheyenne Mtn signals, but my experience at least with FM from Cheyenne Mtn, that there's a lot of scratchy multipath just about everywhere except for the Dawson Ranch subdivision which is about 700' higher than the rest of the town., but they'd need to be fairly high up.

Almost all the translators here are at what may be the most heavily fortified transmitter site in the country: one of the hilltops on the East Canon prison grounds! Something I've thought about, since Fox 21* and its sister CW 58 are in the same boat, is having 8, 21 and 58 operate as subchannels on the existing three translators, which aren't digital yet, but I believe CPs have been awarded for new digital facilities.

Don't know what KOAA, KKTV and KRDO would think of that idea, and in a perfect world it should be shot down, but an OTA SD subchannel is better than nothing at all. Ideally though a dark translator or a CP that's somewhere close to here could be moved in that could be for exclusive use of kTSC, so yes it's worth further study and discussion. Sorry for taking the Denver thread off-topic...:)

*Fox 21 used to ID on air a Florence translator on channel 54, K54xx (can't remember the last two letters anymore) and I've picked it up w/ rabbit ears before. That was about two years ago. Odd thing was that I never found an entry for it in the FCC database. It's no longer on the air, and Fox 21 doesn't ID it anymore.

It is worth inquiring to see if an already assigned translator is being under-utilized, and could be FCC-permitted to serve Canon City. It would require an OTA pickup site just south of Florence with a 200' tower, from which KTSC's OTA signal could be received, and rebroadcast. If folks from Canon City are aware of such a site, I would suggest calling KTSC in Pueblo and putting the folks there in contact with the site owner. Good ideas generate conversation, which sometimes lead to changes.

How effective is K07PA-D in Manitou Springs? None of the other Colorado Springs stations have translators in Manitou Springs, so how many people are actually watching? Wouldn't it be better co-located with the Canon City translators for the other stations? While the Manitou Springs folks may give more money, I doubt that many watch OTA.

Something I've thought about, since Fox 21* and its sister CW 58 are in the same boat, is having 8, 21 and 58 operate as subchannels on the existing three translators, which aren't digital yet, but I believe CPs have been awarded for new digital facilities. [/SIZE]

This makes great sense, and is line with how the eastern plains operators help to propagate Denver signals to those beyond the reach of effective contours. In this case, however, instead of multiple content streams from one station being carried, they could cherry-pick the iconic channel and mux it in with the other iconic channel content streams.

How effective is K07PA-D in Manitou Springs? None of the other Colorado Springs stations have translators in Manitou Springs, so how many people are actually watching? Wouldn't it be better co-located with the Canon City translators for the other stations? While the Manitou Springs folks may give more money, I doubt that many watch OTA.

Great questions... and slippery slopes.

I am not aware of any real metrics taken local by broadcasters to determine how many people watch OTA versus cable/satellite in specific areas. Non-commercial licensees certainly have databases that list zip codes of members, but that database may not detail how the member receives the signal. That piece of data, in an age of FCC professions to want to "take back" under-utilized spectrum, would be valuable.

Using anecdotal "information" to determine whose watching OTA is a minefield. It is what it is. I know of an engineer who once turned off a translator once just to see who/how many would call in to complain. Talk about your litmus test!!

KUSA has started broadcasting a M/H channel (on RF9) that I believe is just mirroring the OTA programming on 9.1. But for some reason they are encrypting it. I'm not sure I see the value proposition in that.

KUSA has started broadcasting a M/H channel (on RF9) that I believe is just mirroring the OTA programming on 9.1. But for some reason they are encrypting it. I'm not sure I see the value proposition in that.

I wonder if KUSA's M/H service will be a paid service of some type and they are running regular programming as a "placeholder" in the interim? Or anytime there is not paid programming (e.g., sports events) running?

BTW, if the M/H programming is encrypted, how do you know what is actually being broadcast?

The guide data is not encrypted.

- Trip

I wonder if KUSA's M/H service will be a paid service of some type and they are running regular programming as a "placeholder" in the interim? Or anytime there is not paid programming (e.g., sports events) running?

BTW, if the M/H programming is encrypted, how do you know what is actually being broadcast?

Trip said that this is Dyle TV. I guess normal OTA programming will be encrypted but free. You'll still need a Dyle TV enabled device though, and it will require internet connectivity, which means that the primary devices that will use this service will be smartphones. My understanding is that the TV stations want the information they get from forcing people to register the device and also the viewer feedback they get (i.e. who needs Neilsen ratings when you have the actual true count of the number of current viewers).

The way I "knew" what was being shown is due to the existence of a M/H Current Program Descriptor in the unencrypted meta data that tells what is currently being shown (i.e. the current program name, which has been the same as what was being shown on 9.1 every time I checked it).

Rob:
Do you mind listing a major intersection near where you live? I am interested in the KRMA signal coming off of Horsetooth.

TC AVS

Sure - we're not too far southeast of the corner of Horsetooth and College.

We get KRMA's RF 47 well enough - but with an antenna pointed at Lookout, RF 18 is a much more stable deal for me here. And it's our most important channel in this house :-)

Rob T

Trip said that this is Dyle TV. I guess normal OTA programming will be encrypted but free. You'll still need a Dyle TV enabled device though, and it will require internet connectivity, which means that the primary devices that will use this service will be smartphones. My understanding is that the TV stations want the information they get from forcing people to register the device and also the viewer feedback they get (i.e. who needs Neilsen ratings when you have the actual true count of the number of current viewers).

The way I "knew" what was being shown is due to the existence of a M/H Current Program Descriptor in the unencrypted meta data that tells what is currently being shown (i.e. the current program name, which has been the same as what was being shown on 9.1 every time I checked it).

Thus, it appears we don't know for sure what is actually in the KUSA M/H program stream. Similar to the end of the New Orleans/San Francisco football game today which ran long on FOX (past 5:59 PM MST) and my EPG display was showing "Cops" was on air when the game was still on air.

CPT12 (formerly KBDI) update for DT channel 48 for Boulder and "L-burbs" from Jan 10 at
http://www.cpt12.org/community/viewer_buzz.cfm

"Colorado Public Television does plan to offer our three digital channels (12.1, 12.2, and 12.3) free over-the-air with an antenna, digital TV or Analog TV with converter box in the Boulder area this March. We have completed the permit process and are beginning work on the Davidson Mesa installation. Once we are up and running in Boulder, you will not need to pay for cable to view our programming. You will be able to get it free over the air. "

It says they are doing this in part to make up for the fact that Comcast is no longer carrying them on the basic analog package (and that package is going away soon anyway).
Another reason to drop Comcast ! Perhaps it will make some north Boulder folks realize that with a modest antenna (and good anteanna placement), they can get lots of digital HD channels for free.

I hope the new transmission will reach me here in Longmont.

CPT12 (formerly KBDI)

Minor note: Can't be formally. Their officially FCC licensed call sign is still KBDI.

Should be fine in Longmont (as well as in Louisville, Lafayette, Erie, Mead, Berthoud, Lyons, and maybe even Loveland). Of course those projections are sometimes a bit optimistic.
See this map
http://www.rabbitears.info/contour.php?appid=1416160

CPT12 (formerly KBDI) update for DT channel 48 for Boulder and "L-burbs" from Jan 10 at
http://www.cpt12.org/community/viewer_buzz.cfm

"Colorado Public Television does plan to offer our three digital channels (12.1, 12.2, and 12.3) free over-the-air with an antenna, digital TV or Analog TV with converter box in the Boulder area this March. We have completed the permit process and are beginning work on the Davidson Mesa installation.

If I'm not mistaken, the tower that CPT-12 will occupy is undergoing structural reinforcement to accommodate the addition of their antenna. This likely has been part of the holdup to them moving their translator system at an earlier time.

This site should be a good location for them as the mesa is relatively high as both a receive site from Squaw Mountain, and a transmit point -- and Boulder/Louisville viewer directional antennas will be pointed in a generally southerly direction.

Sure - we're not too far southeast of the corner of Horsetooth and College.

We get KRMA's RF 47 well enough - but with an antenna pointed at Lookout, RF 18 is a much more stable deal for me here. And it's our most important channel in this house :-)

Rob T

Thanks, Rob. I appreciate the info.

How effective is K07PA-D in Manitou Springs? None of the other Colorado Springs stations have translators in Manitou Springs, so how many people are actually watching? Wouldn't it be better co-located with the Canon City translators for the other stations? While the Manitou Springs folks may give more money, I doubt that many watch OTA.


Haven't gotten to this in the last few days, but the FCC TV Query database has Pikes Peak Broadcasting with two Canon City translators, analog K12ME Ch.12and what I assume is a digital companion channel K28KC-D ch. 28. Both are currently showing as licensed status and I presume they rebroadcast ch. 13 KRDO.

Not sure whether conditions of the K12ME license would allow it to be resold or not, or whether it would be technically feasible with ch. 11 KKTV's K10LI's pending move from analog 10 to digital RF ch. 13.

I'll pass this along on the Contact us form on rmpbs.org

If K28KC-D is a companion channel for K12ME, then K12ME cannot be sold separately.

- Trip

Haven't gotten to this in the last few days, but the FCC TV Query database has Pikes Peak Broadcasting with two Canon City translators, analog K12ME Ch.12and what I assume is a digital companion channel K28KC-D ch. 28.

I'll pass this along on the Contact us form on rmpbs.org

What would seem easiest would be for co-location of translators at the transmission site -- with palatable leases arrangements. This assumes lack of RF interference among all the co-location tenants, which could include FMs, 2-way, etc. Generally, stringent mask filters are used, but...

What is not known at this time is the FCC stance on moving translator locations. This involves changing the city of license, among many other things. In an age of analog turn offs, and moratoriums on both new digital translator and full-service transmitters, it now remains to be seen whether the FCC will grant a change in city of license. The last I heard they were allowing this.

Trip may have a better idea of this through his tracking of sites.

The FCC is still allowing digital translators to move around, including city of license.

But for KTSC, filing for a translator is pretty easy. Just file for a UHF fill-in translator. As long as the contour of the fill-in translator is restrained within the contour of the main channel 8 signal, it's perfectly legal.

See here, KOAA-42 and a fill-in translator they have received a permit for on channel 47: http://www.rabbitears.info/contour.php?appid=1143275&contour=Y&size=&map=N&head=Y&extras=1395607&cir=&circen=38.745%2C-104.860833333

- Trip

http://images-p.qvc.com/is/image/e/67/e248767.001?wid=535&hei=472&op_sharpen=1
The picture of an antenna above was only $20 at Micro Center Denver store and was doing all right for over the air reception the in the summer, but now that winter has set in with some reason what the reception with this little antenna isn't adequate. What I would like is to get both PBS stations pointing some new antenna halfway between like I was doing with the little antenna pictured above. According to antennaweb.org the reception of these two PBS stations from my location near Tower and and Smoky Hill was as follows.

uhf KRMA-DT 6.1 PBS DENVER, CO 270° 23.7 18
* blue

* violet
vhf KBDI-DT 12.1 PBS BROOMFIELD, CO 267° 38.5 13
violet

So what would you suggest for a new antenna I could buy that will get both these PBS stations consistently with one antenna direction point ? The major networks are no problem pointing the antenna between these two PBS stations so that's all I want. Your suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

If I'm not mistaken, the tower that CPT-12 will occupy is undergoing structural reinforcement to accommodate the addition of their antenna. This likely has been part of the holdup to them moving their translator system at an earlier time.

I have it from a legitimate source that KBDI CPT-12 hopes to have their Boulder translator operating on digital channel 48 from the Marshall Road/Cherryvale site "in about 6-weeks."

Currently, both Denver-area public television stations operate translators atop Williams Village student-residential towers near US36 and Baseline Road in Boulder. RMPBS is digital channel 24, and CPT-12 is analog channel 11.

So what would you suggest for a new antenna I could buy that will get both these PBS stations consistently with one antenna direction point ?
Quincy Avenue end of Smoky Hill Road here. Unless you're right at the base of that shallow hill that rises just west of South Telluride Street, TVFool (http://www.tvfool.com) says you should have line of sight to every broadcast tower in the foothills. "Line of sight" at our distance means good, strong signals from every station, including KRMA and KBDI. I'm thinking the antenna amplifier itself is probably the culprit, as too much boost is worse than not enough in digital TV reception. The amp is probably noisy as well, which will cause more reception issues.

I'd recommend a good all-channel (7-69) antenna – RCA ANT-751, AntennaCraft HBU22, Winegard HD-7694 – without an amplifier, because you shouldn't need one to feed one or two tuners from a decent antenna like these. (My attic setup has no amp, feeds three tuners, and provides a consistent 90/100 signal for channel 6 and a consistent 92/100 signal for channel 12.) All three antennas are available online for maybe $50 or so, shipping included. The ANT-751 and HBU22 are available at some local electronics stores and home centers, but you'll probably get a better price online, even with shipping.

(My attic setup has no amp, feeds three tuners, and provides a consistent 90/100 signal for channel 6 and a consistent 92/100 signal for channel 12.)
Thanks
I hope it will work for me as well is it has worked in your attic. I ordered the antenna Winegard HD7694P from Amazon.

I ordered the antenna Winegard HD7694P from Amazon.
That model has made a lot of people happy. You should obtain reliable reception, too, as long as you avoid aiming it through brick, stucco, concrete or anything metal, such as duct work, a radiant barrier or foil-backed insulation. Tile roofs aren't ideal, either, but I don't recall seeing any in that area. Good luck!

The FCC is still allowing digital translators to move around, including city of license.

But for KTSC, filing for a translator is pretty easy. Just file for a UHF fill-in translator. As long as the contour of the fill-in translator is restrained within the contour of the main channel 8 signal, it's perfectly legal.

See here, KOAA-42 and a fill-in translator they have received a permit for on channel 47: http://www.rabbitears.info/contour.php?appid=1143275&contour=Y&size=&map=N&head=Y&extras=1395607&cir=&circen=38.745%2C-104.860833333

- Trip

Trip, what this seems to indicate is that Fremont County isn't a primary concern for RMPBS.

Looking through the old database shows an RMPBS translator for the folks in western Fremont County at Coaldale, which serves several thousand people. But the main population node in eastern Fremont Co., with about 30,000 people between Canon City, Florence and Penrose remains unserved.

To our west, Chaffee County rates an RMPBS translator at Salida. Smaller towns in southern Colorado such as Aguilar, LaVeta and others also have RMPBS translators planned or operating.

Adding a fill-in KTSC translator for Canon City, etc. shouldn't be that tough as we're well within the theoretical 36 dB contour, even though we suffer extreme shadowing, particularly Canon City.

I'm sorry, after reviewing RMPBS ownership of other translators in southern Colorado, I can only conclude we here in eastern Fremont County don't rate in the eyes of RMPBS.

I have to return to my original premise, RMPBS, NOT ONE DOLLAR FROM ME!!

Looking through the old database shows an RMPBS translator for the folks in western Fremont County at Coaldale, which serves several thousand people. But the main population node in eastern Fremont Co., with about 30,000 people between Canon City, Florence and Penrose remains unserved.

Based on TVfool both Florence and Penrose have set top antenna levels of signal from the main transmitter on Cheyenne Mountain. It's just Canon City proper that has the problem. Of course Canon City is the biggest of the three.

I haven't watched the the local NBC affiliate, KUSA in a long time but I was appalled at how much they compressed their broadcast of the Super Bowl.
Static shots were fine. On fast movement, though, the macro blocking was terrible. Doesn't sattelite allocate more bandwidth to imporatant sports broadcasts, then take if back when it's over. Evidently KUSA values their sub-channels more than their audience. Over the air HD is apparently over.

It was pretty nasty. I can't imagine many people would have missed the weather loop for 4 hours during the game, or the other useless BS on their sub channels...
Considering the size of the viewing audience and the market share for the SB, one would think giving people the best PQ should have been important to them...
But noooo!

Phil

I haven't watched the the local NBC affiliate, KUSA in a long time but I was appalled at how much they compressed their broadcast of the Super Bowl.
Static shots were fine. On fast movement, though, the macro blocking was terrible. Doesn't sattelite allocate more bandwidth to imporatant sports broadcasts, then take if back when it's over. Evidently KUSA values their sub-channels more than their audience. Over the air HD is apparently over.

I didn't see any macro blocking of the game OTA. Based on your comment about satellite bandwidth, were you watching via Dish or Direct?

I didn't see any macro blocking of the game OTA. Based on your comment about satellite bandwidth, were you watching via Dish or Direct?

Well, the comment about subchannels (plural) would seem to indicate that they didn't watch it OTA since KUSA only has the weather loop plus mobile. They need to indicate the provider (OTA is only OTA, OTA) before they can be taken seriously. I do have to note that based on rabbitears KUSA is running fewer Mbps than KOAA, which I watched on DirecTV (I wasn't home).

Team AVS:

I spoke with a gentleman today who lives at the intersection of W 2nd Place and Orchard Street in Golden, due east of where the westbound 6th Avenue on-ramp connects to westbound I-70. He is a ham operator, and has a short tower in his backyard. He would like to pick up KRMA-TV off of Mt. Morrison, and would like suggestions on an antenna setup whereby he could get Mt. Morrison and Lookout Mountain signals.

Longley-Rice mapping shows that he is in a convergence of zones that indicate indoor desktop antennas likely are not an option, but rooftop, or backyard tower, height gives him a fair chance. He has a good understanding of antennae in general.

Suggestions that could be passed on to this gentleman?

I didn't see any macro blocking of the game OTA. Based on your comment about satellite bandwidth, were you watching via Dish or Direct?

I was watching OTA. Maybe macro blocking is the wrong word, micro blocking might be closer. I was viewing the game on my PC monitor with a tuner card and 1080x1920 resolution from about two feet. At this range, every defect is very visible. Any movement and the picture would break up severely. I first noticed this with KRMA which has had the same phenomenon at different times as they played with their bit-rate. NBC, CBS and ABC have always had better pictures than KRMA but KUSA has taken the lead in poor quality.

I was only referring to satellite bandwidth from what I've read about both Dish and Direct allocating more bandwidth to a channel when they want to give the viewer the best possible picture.

I don't keep track of the number of sub-channels the locals are broadcasting. It is apparent, though, that the 'HD' channel keeps getting further away from the 19.4 Mbps possible. Leno always looks worse than Letterman.

Mobile can now take up to 6Mbps, the weather loop adding to the loss. The numbers don't matter. Such picture break-up used to be minimal. Now it's major. As 'ppasteur' said, you'd think PQ would be important to them.

Evidently not.

It is apparent, though, that the 'HD' channel keeps getting further away from the 19.4 Mbps possible.

HD can never be 19.4 Mbps as that is the total bitrate of the OTA ATSC mux. The most that HD can be is in the 17-17.5 Mbps area.

I was watching OTA. Maybe macro blocking is the wrong word, micro blocking might be closer. I was viewing the game on my PC monitor with a tuner card and 1080x1920 resolution from about two feet. At this range, every defect is very visible. Any movement and the picture would break up severely.

What you are describing was most likely not a problem originating at KUSA – again, I observed no problems OTA on my recent vintage TVs (both low end and high end TVs using either powered rabbit ears or an attic antenna and in a signal challenged area). However, it is a common problem with tuner cards, DTV converter boxes and older HD TVs. Having personally observed the pixilation (macro blocking) problems with various devices through the years, it is almost always associated with one of the described above peripheral devices and older HD TVs. And it is almost always more evident on a 1080i broadcast such as KUSA's broadcast.

What appears to be the problem is twofold - an apparent lack of both hardware capability and software decoding/transcoding in the tuner device and possibly the computer processing if one is viewing that way. Remember that 1080i must be converted from interlace to progressive scan (and possibly upconverted to 1080p) at some point for display on a flatscreen device, including computers. It is observationally very apparent that some peripheral tuners do not do a very good job making this conversion. This could be both a hardware and software algorithm issue. Note: for a DTV converter for use on a older CRT TV, the 1080i or 720p broadcast must be downconverted to 480i which doesn't always happen very cleanly either. Another factor is the performance of the tuner relative to signal disruptions from low signal level, electrical noise, multipath, etc. Again, the quality of the hardware and software can make a huge difference as to what the viewer actually sees.

However, it is a common problem with tuner cards, DTV converter boxes and older HD TVs. Having personally observed the pixilation (macro blocking) problems with various devices through the years, it is almost always associated with one of the described above peripheral devices and older HD TVs.

I disagree 100%. Macroblocking is not something that is caused in playback. It is a result of lack of bits to fully describe the 16x16 block in question, at the encoding stage. In other words, it is also called bitstarving, or being bitstarved.

You cannot, under any circumstances, bitstarve playback. Sure, there can be playback issues with computers. I see it all the time with high bitrate H.264 feeds. But, never ever do the playback issues result in macroblocking.

Users with tuner cards can capture the program and I can guarantee that if the program has macroblocks, they are in the transmission. Proof of that is to view the captured file with a program that allows single frame viewing and frame captures. If macroblocking was a playback issue, due to lack of CPU power etc., there would not be an issue if one were to freezeframe the video. But, the macroblocking will not go away upon a freezeframe and said macroblocking can then be saved as a JPG or PNG, whatever image file.

I, and many others, have provided samples of bad local station encodings in various threads on AVS.

What you are describing was most likely not a problem originating at KUSA – again, I observed no problems OTA on my recent vintage TVs (both low end and high end TVs using either powered rabbit ears or an attic antenna and in a signal challenged area). However, it is a common problem with tuner cards, DTV converter boxes and older HD TVs. Having personally observed the pixilation (macro blocking) problems with various devices through the years, it is almost always associated with one of the described above peripheral devices and older HD TVs. And it is almost always more evident on a 1080i broadcast such as KUSA's broadcast.


I noticed the problem here in Phoenix with the local broadcast. I was watching OTA on a 1080p-capable 46" Philips HDTV that I bought in Jan. 2008 - is that what you're referring to as "older"? I notice it on 1080i broadcasts but not 720p.

I may have missed mention of this, but I finally have a device that can tell me channel formats, and it says 3-1 is sending its RTN programming in 720p?

It also said KWGN is sending 2-1 in 720p, but I thought CW was always 1080i.

I could see 3-1 as an error on their part, but i'm wondering if 2-1 went 720p as part of the merger with long-time 720p 31-1.

If you want to see horrid macroblocking on KUSA a reliable source is the credits at the end of SNL.

All the people on stage combined with the credit scroll is a recipe for disaster.

Should make the Olympics fun; anyone else remember how spectacular the SLC games looked on zero subchannel KUSA back in 2002?

I disagree 100%. Macroblocking is not something that is caused in playback. It is a result of lack of bits to fully describe the 16x16 block in question, at the encoding stage. In other words, it is also called bitstarving, or being bitstarved.

You cannot, under any circumstances, bitstarve playback. Sure, there can be playback issues with computers. I see it all the time with high bitrate H.264 feeds. But, never ever do the playback issues result in macroblocking.

Users with tuner cards can capture the program and I can guarantee that if the program has macroblocks, they are in the transmission. Proof of that is to view the captured file with a program that allows single frame viewing and frame captures. If macroblocking was a playback issue, due to lack of CPU power etc., there would not be an issue if one were to freezeframe the video. But, the macroblocking will not go away upon a freezeframe and said macroblocking can then be saved as a JPG or PNG, whatever image file.

I, and many others, have provided samples of bad local station encodings in various threads on AVS.

I didn't address the issue you have brought up nor did I say that it couldn't happen, that, yes, one can have bit starvation from the encoding end at a station. I have actually created bit starvation on purpose in encoding/PSIP configuration tests on-air from master control while watching the outgoing video vs. the demodulated OTA signal.

However, many a time, I have had two different brands of TVs side by side feeding from the same antenna with very different results from high motion video. And, I have seen a less expensive generic brand outperform a major brand although that is not usually the case.

I think you may have not understood my point about the transcoding from 1080i to 720p (or to 1080p). That process is inherently non-linear as interlaced video cannot be directly converted into a progressive scan due to the every other line offset of the two fields in interlaced video, which would be a temporal impossibility. Thus, the transcoding algorithm has to create a pseudo progressive scan as it rebuilds the pixel structure which is unique to each hardware manufacture. The process takes considerable processing power. Depending on processing speed of the chips (both CPU and memory) and the complexity of the algorithm, there can be processing bit starvation within that process within the device.

And note in your discussion, one cannot have a freeze frame of an image until after the decoding process at the tuner/TV has occurred. Thus, the question is, when did the macro blocking (bit starvation) occur. If I’m not seeing bit starvation off air in master control or on my TV in home, but someone else is experiencing the problem on their device/system, where is the problem occurring?

Bit starvation can occur anywhere (including at the camera) in a digital capture, processing, and delivery system.

I notice it on 1080i broadcasts but not 720p.

1080i requires more bits than 720p. But 720p can be bitstarved as well. My local ABC affiliate has two sub-channels and reserved space for mobile and their stuff looks like sh!t.

ATSC can barely handle 1080i on a good day (no subchannels or orther crap).

Added note: What needs to be known is if the viewer is watching via cable, DirecTV or Dish. All three are known to recode and overcompress in order to allocate more streams per mux. Therefore OTA might not see anything, but others could when not watching via OTA.

EDIT: This posting was supposed to appear after the next one.

However, many a time, I have had two different brands of TVs side by side feeding from the same antenna with very different results from high motion video. And, I have seen a less expensive generic brand outperform a major brand although that is not usually the case.

Interesting

I think you may have not understood my point about the transcoding from 1080i to 720p (or to 1080p). That process is inherently non-linear as interlaced video cannot be directly converted into a progressive scan due to the every other line offset of the two fields in interlaced video, which would be a temporal impossibility. Thus, the transcoding algorithm has to create a pseudo progressive scan as it rebuilds the pixel structure which is unique to each hardware manufacture. The process takes considerable processing power. Depending on processing speed of the chips (both CPU and memory) and the complexity of the algorithm, there can be processing bit starvation within that process within the device.

The display device should not be working in the MPEG-2 realm if taking 1080i to 720p or 1080p for display. It should be working in raw baseband video, which can't have macroblocks. On my computer systems I use the RGB/VGA connector from the Nvidia graphics card. The program to do the displaying is VLC. It, unfortunately, still does not use the CUDA capability of the Nvidia onboard display GPU to handle video decoding. That means it is still doing it via software. When it can't handle the high bitrate H.264 video, it drops frames. It doesn't make a mish-mash of the video. It doesn't have any problems with 37 Mbps MPEG-2 video.

And note in your discussion, one cannot have a freeze frame of an image until after the decoding process at the tuner/TV has occurred. Thus, the question is, when did the macro blocking (bit starvation) occur. If I’m not seeing bit starvation off air in master control or on my TV in home, but someone else is experiencing the problem on their device/system, where is the problem occurring?

Correct. After decoding and the freeze frame shows macroblocking, that means it was a result of the station's encoder, not with any playback or decoding on the computer. Doing a freeze frame, as a result of single frame stepping cannot result in CPU overloading while decoing, as it can take all the time it needs.

Damn good question. I'd have to be at the place of the person complaining and doing visual imspections and personal captures and frame looking.

i'm wondering if 2-1 went 720p as part of the merger with long-time 720p 31-1.

It did.

- Trip

1080i requires more bits than 720p. But 720p can be bitstarved as well. My local ABC affiliate has two sub-channels and reserved space for mobile and their stuff looks like sh!t.

ATSC can barely handle 1080i on a good day (no subchannels or orther crap).

A few months ago Denver's ABC affiliate (V7/RF7) went to four sub-channels - 1 HD & 3 SDs. Amazingly, it is working very well. I have yet to see any macro blocking on HD on my high end 120Hz OTA HDTV and only a very few instances of macro blocking on a generic 60 Hz counter top HDTV on rabbit ears.

The Cheyenne, WY CBS affiliate recently switched from 1080i with one HD & one SD to 720p with two HD (both CBS - one programmed for Cheyenne and one programmed for Northern Colorado) AND a SD carrying the CW network. When I can get a solid signal (not often), surprisingly it appears to be working OK.

The CBS O&O Denver affiliate is 1080i with one HD program sub-channel with TVGOS data. It is rock solid. To say ATSC can barely handle 1080i is not true with today's technology.

Interesting



The display device should not be working in the MPEG-2 realm if taking 1080i to 720p or 1080p for display. It should be working in raw baseband video, which can't have macroblocks. On my computer systems I use the RGB/VGA connector from the Nvidia graphics card. The program to do the displaying is VLC. It, unfortunately, still does not use the CUDA capability of the Nvidia onboard display GPU to handle video decoding. That means it is still doing it via software. When it can't handle the high bitrate H.264 video, it drops frames. It doesn't make a mish-mash of the video. It doesn't have any problems with 37 Mbps MPEG-2 video.



Correct. After decoding and the freeze frame shows macroblocking, that means it was a result of the station's encoder, not with any playback or decoding on the computer. Doing a freeze frame, as a result of single frame stepping cannot result in CPU overloading while decoing, as it can take all the time it needs.

Damn good question. I'd have to be at the place of the person complaining and doing visual imspections and personal captures and frame looking.


Everything that is happening in the transcoding is happening as a digital process prior to the actual physical display process. The freeze frame "video" is read out of digital memory. The bit starvation can be happening anywhere in any of the digital processes.

And I note that as I previously mentioned, this seems to happen a lot with viewers using tuner cards. Sure enough, you are. And folks with tuner cards on computers seem to have the most problems. And I see more visual problems when I use a tuner card with my computers.

The bottom line for me based on my personal experiences and observations is that the average tuner card is just not as robust and capable as a well designed higher end HDTV, especially ones with scan rates of 120 Hz or higher which have superior processors and algorithms.

BTW, does anyone know of a tuner card or stick with higher than a 60 Hz vertical scan rate?

I noticed the problem here in Phoenix with the local broadcast. I was watching OTA on a 1080p-capable 46" Philips HDTV that I bought in Jan. 2008 - is that what you're referring to as "older"? I notice it on 1080i broadcasts but not 720p.

Dave, it's hard to identify any particular vintage of equipment other than older equipment generally will have more problems decoding ATSC signals. Like all things CPU based, each new generation of hardware or new version of software seem to make improvement in the ability of devices to process ATSC OTA signals. And with OTA, there are many variables that can affect the MPEG-2 transmission stream and its decoding including signal strength (and its strength variability), multipath distortion causing cancellation and/or errors (e.g., flying aircraft, blowing leaves and branches, temperature inversions), general error rates of the digital data, impulse noise, and general signal-to-noise ratio of the broadcast data stream, for example. Anything lowering the performance of these parameters can further cause problems in the decoding and transcoding processes. And transcoding from 1080i into pseudo 720p or 1080p prior to final display will require even more processing power when intaking a problematic data stream and may well exceed the ability of the system to process the data, i.e., not enough bits to process the data, especially on high motion video.

Everything that is happening in the transcoding is happening as a digital process prior to the actual physical display process. The freeze frame "video" is read out of digital memory. The bit starvation can be happening anywhere in any of the digital processes.


This is correct.

Added note: What needs to be known is if the viewer is watching via cable, DirecTV or Dish. All three are known to recode and overcompress in order to allocate more streams per mux. Therefore OTA might not see anything, but others could when not watching via OTA.


I agree. It IS important to distinguish from whom is the signal received.

In Denver, Comcast has fiber tie-ins to 4, 6, 7, 9, and 31. Beyond that, I don't know. Comcast does sometimes take in a feed OTA to redistribute, but as a rule they rely on fiber from the various master control centers.

Dish and DirecTV rely on OTA feeds from local broadcasters.

RMPBS does have a translator, fed from the KTSC-Pueblo content system, serving Coaldale and Cotopaxi. There is also a translator serving the adjoining Salida area. Canon City, unfortunately, remains unserved.

KTSC-Pueblo serves 10 of the 25 translators in the RMPBS system, and has one of the longer licensed microwave shots in the area: Fremont Peak (northwest of Canon City) to San Antonio Peak 10 miles in to NM at the southern end of San Louis Valley.

A possible point of correction: The RMPBS translator in contention is on what is labeled in Google Earth as "Methodist Mountain" bordering Salida -- or at least, the other side of the saddle of Methodist Mountain. The city of license for this translator is Salida. This translator does not look down upon Canon City.

Fremont Peak is listed in Google Earth as bordering Canon City. There is a transmission site there.

Industry RF techs have called the mountain across the saddle from Methodist Mountain "Fremont Peak". I was quoting others who may have been quoting others who quoted others, ,who quoted....

Any geography buffs out there? What's your take on the two points on Methodist Mountain, separated by a saddle?

Hey guys,
Just back to this..
Yes I used the wrong terms. This is ancient history now.
But yes, easily seen on the 60" LG Plasma and even more so on the PC tuner card and 27" Samsung from two feet away. Smearing, micro blocking, little jagged edges during motion, loss of resolution on the background, whatever the proper terms are, it did not make me happy. Compared to games I have seen on Fox and KMGH in the past, It sucked.

I am a veteran of the Tower Wars and an antenna 60 feet in the air to get KMGH on their coathanger antenna. And yes, I saw Super Bowls from them that looked better way back then.



I also saw content on PBS from the Republic Plaza when they ran a HI Def loop using all that HDTV had to offer...

In any case, I was watching OTA, I have D, and looked at that for a bit, but it gets no better than the source. The signal meter for KUSA on the HR24 is pegged at 100% btw. The WinTV HVR 2250 card shows 28 for the SNR and usually shows 0 to 5 correctable errors and 0 uncorrectable errors. I now have a Winegard 7696P 35 feet up on a rotor. I can see lookout mountain form here at about 13 miles. I don't have a signal problem.

As to credibility, I am not expert, just one of the guys that has been around this board for a long time and seen quality for HDTV, come and go. Judging by this game...it has gone...Regardless of whether it was the network or KUSA, I did not like what I saw. Just my thoughts.

One last thing, why should anyone have to question my credibility when , for one, I am not looking for any, and two, I am just reporting my thoughts and feelings on what I saw ???

So, I just wanted to rant. That used to be acceptable in this thread...

Phil

I was watching OTA. Maybe macro blocking is the wrong word, micro blocking might be closer. I was viewing the game on my PC monitor with a tuner card and 1080x1920 resolution from about two feet. At this range, every defect is very visible. Any movement and the picture would break up severely. I first noticed this with KRMA which has had the same phenomenon at different times as they played with their bit-rate. NBC, CBS and ABC have always had better pictures than KRMA but KUSA has taken the lead in poor quality.

I was only referring to satellite bandwidth from what I've read about both Dish and Direct allocating more bandwidth to a channel when they want to give the viewer the best possible picture.

I don't keep track of the number of sub-channels the locals are broadcasting. It is apparent, though, that the 'HD' channel keeps getting further away from the 19.4 Mbps possible. Leno always looks worse than Letterman.

Mobile can now take up to 6Mbps, the weather loop adding to the loss. The numbers don't matter. Such picture break-up used to be minimal. Now it's major. As 'ppasteur' said, you'd think PQ would be important to them.

Evidently not.

Looks like KRMA is preparing to move from Mount Morrison back to Lookout Mountain.

- Trip

Looks like KRMA is preparing to move from Mount Morrison back to Lookout Mountain.

- Trip

I'd say "that would be nice" but really I haven't had any issues receiving KRMA with my antenna pointed at Lookout.

Looks like KRMA is preparing to move from Mount Morrison back to Lookout Mountain.

- Trip

A few days before they filed their construction permit application, they filed an application for an STA at Lookout. From their STA application:

The STA operation proposed by this application is necessitated by the impending loss of KRMA-TV’s licensed transmitter site due to lease considerations. RMPBN therefore is in the process of completing plans for a permanent relocation of the KRMA-TV facility. Accordingly, RMPBN is currently preparing to file a construction permit application for the necessary changes, and following FCC authorization will pursue the build-out and implementation of the KRMA-TV facility modifications. In the meantime, however, RMPBN seeks STA to operate a reduced power KRMA-TV facility from an alternate antenna site in order to maintain service to the station’s community of license and surrounding area during the process of dismantling and relocating the KRMA-TV transmitting facility. A grant of STA will therefore serve the public interest by allowing RMPBN to continue KRMA-TV’s noncommercial educational DTV broadcast service for local viewers until it can complete the facility change process in connection with the station’s long-term relocation needs.

The STA is for 114 kW @ 182 meters above average terrain versus 750 kW @ 292 meters for the CP.

If they have to operate using the STA facilities for too long the lower power and antenna height might cause some folks some trouble, I suppose.

Looks like the STA application is for the LCG tower. The more permanent facilities would be a little farther west.

Looks like the STA application is for the LCG tower. The more permanent facilities would be a little farther west.

So does anyone know if the new antenna location will be on a new tower or will it be on one of the older towers? I'm not sure what the status of the older towers are at this point. I believe all the LCG analog towers were taken down with the possible exception of KTVD's tower. Does KRMA's old tower on Lookout still exist?

EDIT: OK, I guess I should have just read the application. KRMA is returning to their old analog tower on Lookout Mountain. At one time Jefferson County wasn't going to allow them to do that, but the Federal Exemption probably lets KRMA ignore that problem.

It has probably been discussed at length (search wasn't very helpful) but is Fox31 planning on correcting their daytime bit starvation. Occasionally I see it at night but it is quite prevalent during the daytime at both my house and my parents.

It has probably been discussed at length (search wasn't very helpful) but is Fox31 planning on correcting their daytime bit starvation. Occasionally I see it at night but it is quite prevalent during the daytime at both my house and my parents.

I haven't seen anything I would consider to be bit starvation on Fox31, and I watch quite often. What shows seem to be the problem?

The afternoon court shows. I have good signal strength 95% as does my parents. I'm calling it bit starvation , the picture lags the sound then tries to catch up with lots of breakup.

... the picture lags the sound then tries to catch up with lots of breakup.
Sounds like it could be multipath interference, or perhaps incipient signal overload. Either one, or both working together, can cause reception problems like these. What make and model antennas are you and your parents using, and where are they located?

EDIT: Where are you/they in relation to Centennial Airport? If it's between you and the towers, airplanes flying through the signal paths can make a hash out of reception as well. The place is extremely busy during daylight hours, but air traffic falls off sharply after dark.

Parents are at Broadway & Arapahoe with a Radio Shack small indoor UHF/VHF antenna. I'm at Holly & County Line. I have a DB4 in my attic and a DB2 outside for 2 different TVs which exhibit the same issue.

Parents are at ...
Scratch the airport, then. It was a likely culprit only if both your homes were east of it, or directly under the flight paths. You've got me stumped as to a cause, particularly in three different antenna locations like that. It's time for trial and error:

• If your parents' antenna is amplified, the booster can cause signal overload, or worsen multipath. If it is, try a simple pair of un-amplified VHF/UHF rabbit ears instead. (They may not be pretty, but they almost always work better than "sleek" antennas do.)

• If you've amplified either or both of the DBs at your house, try removing the amps (and power injectors, if applicable) and run the cables directly to the TVs. If not, all I can suggest is incremental adjustments to aim, height and location to see if moving the antennas helps at all.

Thanks for your suggestions.
None of the antennas are amped. Guess I will try readjustments when the weather gets better.
Thanks.

Sounds like it could be multipath interference, or perhaps incipient signal overload. Either one, or both working together, can cause reception problems like these. What make and model antennas are you and your parents using, and where are they located?


Don,

Do you think that the dB antennas could have enough gain to overload the TV tuners that close in?

I find it interesting that he is only reporting problems with KDVR, since KDVR is on RF32 with KWGN on RF34 and KCNC on RF35. I'd expect the same problem with them.

Do you think that the dB antennas could have enough gain to overload the TV tuners that close in?
Impossible to know for sure without going to this guy's and his parents' houses armed with a spectrum analyzer, of course. Two of the three antennas in question are indoors, so that's a fair amount of attenuation right there. Only the DB2 is outside. The apparent reception difference between 2.x, 4.1 and 31.x may be due to transmitting antenna locations and heights: Even though they're all on Lookout FCC data has them on three separate towers, and KDVR has the lowest HAAT of the three. The lower height, combined with the terrain around the two homes, lack of foliage, snow cover, etc., may have induced a bit of multipath interference for these viewers.

The reason that I thought of overload is that here in Monument I have no problem picking up the stations in question with an attic mounted reflectorless Gray-Hoverman (less gain than the DB4). Meanwhile they are basically sitting right under the towers. I'd think that either the attic mounted DB4 or the exterior DB2 would drive multiple tuners with no real problem. As far as the indoor antenna is concerned, there are all kinds of possible sources of multipath and interference.

Given that it happens just on syndicated programs in the afternoon, there's always the possibility that it's in the syndication feeds 31 is recording, not in the 31 signal itself.

Do you ever see it on local commercials/local promos or just during the show itself?

Given that it happens just on syndicated programs in the afternoon, there's always the possibility that it's in the syndication feeds 31 is recording, not in the 31 signal itself.

Do you ever see it on local commercials/local promos or just during the show itself?

I really doubt it is a broadcast signal issue.

On the other hand my Dynex HDTV seems to have issues decoding both KDVR and KXRM (both FOX affiliates).

The issues the OP is talking about are definitely primarily reception issues. The question is what is causing them.

Given that it happens just on syndicated programs in the afternoon, there's always the possibility that it's in the syndication feeds 31 is recording, not in the 31 signal itself.

Do you ever see it on local commercials/local promos or just during the show itself?

I have seen it in promos but more predominant in the shows.

I have it from a legitimate source that KBDI CPT-12 hopes to have their Boulder translator operating on digital channel 48 from the Marshall Road/Cherryvale site "in about 6-weeks."

Currently, both Denver-area public television stations operate translators atop Williams Village student-residential towers near US36 and Baseline Road in Boulder. RMPBS is digital channel 24, and CPT-12 is analog channel 11.Is there any update available from your source as to how the Boulder translator in progressing? It's been about 5 weeks.

Are there any plans for KBDI Channel 12 to broadcast in HD?

Is there any update available from your source as to how the Boulder translator in progressing? It's been about 5 weeks.

I am told that they are now hoping to have a signal broadcasting from the "new" site by early-to-mid May.

Let's hope the red-tape that has been keeping them from progressing more quickly is behind them. The site in question should be a very good site for them.

TC AVS

Are there any plans for KBDI Channel 12 to broadcast in HD?


CPT-12 folks say they have plans to broadcast in HD, but have no timetable for the moment. I'm sure, as with any business capital expenses, it is all about the resources. From my conversation, it's certainly not for lack of desire.

TC AVS

I haven't been able to pick up KETDD2, Virtual 53-2, Physical 45-4 for a while. I believe they were transmitting from a tower in Parker. It was showing the old KWHD programming which included some old TV programs like Gunsmoke, Bonanza, The Rifleman, and Daniel Boone. I did not watch it much, but I did tune in occasionally.

I was getting it pretty reliably, even though is a pretty good distance, and a few degrees off from where my antenna is aimed.

Has something changed?
Is anyone still receiving the station?

I haven't been able to pick up KETDD2, Virtual 53-2, Physical 45-4 for a while. I believe they were transmitting from a tower in Parker. It was showing the old KWHD programming which included some old TV programs like Gunsmoke, Bonanza, The Rifleman, and Daniel Boone. I did not watch it much, but I did tune in occasionally.

I was getting it pretty reliably, even though is a pretty good distance, and a few degrees off from where my antenna is aimed.

Has something changed?
Is anyone still receiving the station?

I can still get them, but they are very weak. Signal quality is so low that they are constantly breaking up. I used to get them somewhat reliably, so I'm not sure what is happening. They applied to switch their antenna to Mt. Morrison, which should be better for me, but right now that is not the case. Perhaps they are in the middle of transitioning and have not finished the move (e.g. they put up something temporary in their old location while they move their primary equipment to Mt. Morrison).

I've in general been having poor reception on digital 7 and 9 in Stapleton. I made my antenna in June and it had flawless reception until late february and now I've had to reposition it occasionally.

Is there some atmospheric disturbance (these solar flares) or something else going on that's affecting reception?

I can still get them, but they are very weak. Signal quality is so low that they are constantly breaking up. I used to get them somewhat reliably, so I'm not sure what is happening. They applied to switch their antenna to Mt. Morrison, which should be better for me, but right now that is not the case. Perhaps they are in the middle of transitioning and have not finished the move (e.g. they put up something temporary in their old location while they move their primary equipment to Mt. Morrison).

UNBELIEVABLE

I just went back to the FCC query page for KETD. The first time I looked, I focused on the "Licensed" info, which pointed to the Parker transmitter.

This time I looked at the "Application" and "Modification of Construction Permit" info. Those point to a location on Mt Morrison, as you suggested. The Longitude and Latitude match the KRMA Mt Morrison transmitter. A key parameter: "Antenna Height Above Ground Level: 8. meters AGL ". I am virtually certain that is the INFAMOUS KRMA ICE-BRIDGE LOCATION. It is hard to believe that anyone claiming to be a broadcast engineer would use that site without doing a little research.

Based on the KRMA experience, that location provides terrible coverage to several degrees in a generally north direction from the transmitter. The bad coverage included the Ls (Louisville, Lafayette, Longmont, and Loveland) and I suspect much of Fort Collins. I believe the problem is that the ground, and the old KPXC transmitter building, in that direction, are higher than the antenna site. I suspect that if they just climbed onto the Ice-Bridge they would realize that they can't see the horizon over the top of the old KPXC building.

I don't see anything on the FCC KETD qwery to indicate the situation is temporary. If that is the case, I don't expect to be able to watch KEDT-2 any more. This is not a huge loss, but it is still annoying.

The three-year clock was running out. They had to put something on the air on channel 45 before it expired. They may very well put it up as specified in the permit and then file for something better once it's licensed. I've seen it happen before.

- Trip

I saw channel 53 pop up on my DTVpal DVR, but I thought it was just a transient from the Parker/Castle Rock Transmitter. Do remember that KRMA is moving to Lookout Mountain, so the KRMA tower will be open. It would be nice to have the KWHS programming available since my current antenna doesn't pull in KWHS from Cheyenne Mountain.

The three-year clock was running out. They had to put something on the air on channel 45 before it expired. They may very well put it up as specified in the permit and then file for something better once it's licensed. I've seen it happen before.

- Trip
It still bothers me that the FCC publishes contour maps for KETD (and KRMA before that) which have no basis in reality. I realize that the contour map was probably generated by rules established by the FCC, but as a Dickens character said "If the law supposes that," "the law is a ass- a idiot".

While it is not my area of expertise, I suspect that when a transmitting antenna is only 8m (roughly 25 feet) above ground level, it is silly to use a calculation that ignores nearby obstructions. If this was someone making claims about a product they were selling, I believe many consumers would view it as fraud.
I hope no one wastes their time and/or money trying to receive that signal based on the misinformation on the FCC website.

After-thought: Actually, someone is selling a product here. KETD is selling marketing service to their advertisers. If the broadcast engineer is not aware of the hole, he is incompetent. How could he not research why KRMA abandoned the ice-bride antenna, at significant cost. If he knew, and did not tell the station, I would consider it to be a betrayal of his professional responsibilities. If the station knows about the coverage hole, and does not inform the advertisers, I would consider that to be deceptive practice. Actually, I believe they were morally obligated to inform the existing advertisers when they move to the new antenna, since the advertisers may be losing coverage in areas critical to their business.

The contours were established in the 1950s before computers allowed for accurate computation of coverage areas. They use fixed points at distances of 5, 10, 15, and 20 miles out in each direction to determine the contour distance in that direction. If your station is at 5,000 feet, there is a 10,000 foot mountain at 2 miles, and the terrain is 1,000 feet at 5 miles, it ignores the presence of the 10,000 foot mountain and acts like it's 4,000 feet above the terrain at that 5-mile distance, more or less.

Longley-Rice does a much better job, but cannot account for obstructions such as buildings that do not exist in topographic maps. http://www.rabbitears.info/contour.php?appid=1490211&map=Y

- Trip

I've in general been having poor reception on digital 7 and 9 in Stapleton. I made my antenna in June and it had flawless reception until late february and now I've had to reposition it occasionally.

Is there some atmospheric disturbance (these solar flares) or something else going on that's affecting reception?

Since 7 and 9 seem to be your problem channels, what type of antenna did you build? 7, 9 and 12 (RF13, KBDI) are the Denver channels currently on VHF and really need a bigger antenna than what will work for the rest of the channels (which are on UHF). I can't explain the change in your reception. My reception for 7 and 9 has been rock solid.

As I suggested could happen the other day, KETD has filed for a different facility at 1000 kW at the 120 foot level on the tower.

- Trip

As I suggested could happen the other day, KETD has filed for a different facility at 1000 kW at the 120 foot level on the tower.

- Trip

OK. I apologize for jumping to conclusions. I guess I over-reacted.
That should be plenty of elevation to clear the local obstructions.
I hope it does not take too long to implement.
It is unfortunate for the station and the effected viewers that they were not able to go directly to that configuration from the Parker transmitter.

It still bothers me that the FCC publishes contour maps for KETD (and KRMA before that) which have no basis in reality.

------

KETD is selling marketing service to their advertisers. If the broadcast engineer is not aware of the hole, he is incompetent. How could he not research why KRMA abandoned the ice-bride antenna, at significant cost.

The FCC contours are more useful in the context of being contours for what I might term as FCC protected coverage areas -- protected against frequency interference. Longley-Rice mapping is the more useful tool for projecting signal coverage, taking in to account height above ground level & average terrain, and antenna pattern and ERP at the point of origination. It further considers distance and terrain among other factors to calculate tiers of reception possibilities at the point of reception. Softwares such as V-Soft can perform this mapping.

I don't think it is accurate to say the KRMA abandoned the ice bridge at the one Mt. Morrison site. There was an agreement in place all along that when KTVD-20 removed their transmission facilities from the site, and moved over to Lookout Mountain, KRMA would take over the KTVD-20 spot on the tower. The ice-bridge was slated as a temporary location for KRMA from the beginning, and during the period of simultaneous analog/digital broadcasting.

Longley-Rice mapping is the more useful tool for projecting signal coverage, taking in to account height above ground level & average terrain, and antenna pattern and ERP at the point of origination. It further considers distance and terrain among other factors to calculate tiers of reception possibilities at the point of reception. Softwares such as V-Soft can perform this mapping.

RabbitEars has such maps for almost every station in the US and parts of Canada.

- Trip

Since 7 and 9 seem to be your problem channels, what type of antenna did you build? 7, 9 and 12 (RF13, KBDI) are the Denver channels currently on VHF and really need a bigger antenna than what will work for the rest of the channels (which are on UHF). I can't explain the change in your reception. My reception for 7 and 9 has been rock solid.

It's a fractal dipole tuned somewhere towards the high side of VHF. I think I posted schematics in this thread earlier (I'm on my phone so it's laborious to check back).

I know the antenna isn't ideal, but as you concluded your comment, it's odd that it was flawless through summer and fall and now it's shaky on those channels. I can still get then fine if I reposition the antenna, but it was nice to have it hidden behind a painting.

I'm a renter, so a roof/attic antenna is not an option.

I know the antenna isn't ideal, but as you concluded your comment, it's odd that it was flawless through summer and fall and now it's shaky on those channels. I can still get then fine if I reposition the antenna, but it was nice to have it hidden behind a painting.

I'm a renter, so a roof/attic antenna is not an option.

If your in an apartment there is a good chance that your neighbors moving funiture or appliances may have changed your reception. Also, has there been any new construction in the neighborhood?

Anyone having issues getting KCDO Channel 28.3

... problems getting KCDO Channel 28.3?
KLPD's signal (28.3 being a re-broadcast of KCDO) has been weak and spotty for several days now. Get used to it: This happens now and then. KLPD's transmitter is notoriously unreliable, and it can take them several days to several weeks to fix it. The owner is Syncom Media Group in case you'd like to give them an earful.