Same here, although mine has only been up for 3.5 years. At that time I was able to tell my wife that the Jeffco BOC had approved the new tower and so I would only need the antenna outside for a year. I have a CM4228 on a mast lashed to my backyard deck, aimed SE through the gap between my house and my neighbors; my neighbor has one tree which might be in the way, but it's a good 50 yards away. Downtown Denver is just barely under the horizon; the skyscrapers are clearly visible from a hill behind my house which is 100 feet higher elevation.

I am also able to pick up the Lookout Mountain stations with this setup, even though the antenna is pointed downtown and the LOS to Lookout is blocked by my house.
oxothuk and I are only a few blocks apart and with similar results. I too get the Lookout stations without rotating the antenna. Also, I find little seasonal impact from the trees and bushes which are in the direct line of sight of the antenna.

Sean, thanks for the info about height--I'm moving from old town (9th and Francis), where there were lots of mature trees, and a 1-story house, so height mattered. Useful to know it's less important here. You say your antenna is in your back yard--so your backyard has a southern exposure? My house faces south, I'm assuming I'll want to be either in the attic, or on the roof--the backyard would be blocked by the entire house. Is this a bad assumption?

-Sarah


Sarah, I installed a Rat Shack VU 190 in my sisters attic, She lives in the 21st and Hover area and we were able to pick up all the digital Denver RP Locals along with the Lookout Mtn digital. This antenna is kind of a pain to set up in the attic due to its size. At her house we lucked out and the rafters were lined up just right.

Good Luck ;)

Sarah, I installed a Rat Shack VU 190 in my sisters attic, She lives in the 21st and Hover area and we were able to pick up all the digital Denver RP Locals along with the Lookout Mtn digital. This antenna is kind of a pain to set up in the attic due to its size. At her house we lucked out and the rafters were lined up just right.

Good Luck ;)

Thanks for the info. One of our antennas is a VU 190, and I haven't looked in the attic yet to see if it would actually fit.

-Sarah

Sorry if this is OT...

For those with E*, channel 364 is showing Fox Sports HD. So far no HD on the pregame but hopefully the game will be...

Likewise, for D*, the game is in HD on 95 and 731.

I emailed KCNC today about early round Masters coverage and they responded that they will broadcast the UHD HD coverage on Thursday and Friday on ch 35
(4-1 OTA) from 2:00 to 5:00 PM. They will air their regular programming on the SD channel.

oxothuk and I are only a few blocks apart and with similar results. I too get the Lookout stations without rotating the antenna. Also, I find little seasonal impact from the trees and bushes which are in the direct line of sight of the antenna.

It appears the backyard is a winner! Non-conclusive, but hubby and I "mounted" the antenna on a closet rod and took it out in the backyard, and we received everything except channel 12, with respectable signal strength even on 4-1 (77% according to my STB). I resisted the urge to watch the end of the basketball game...

So, tomorrow well try to figure out how to put up the mast (any suggestions welcome). I think we'll end up putting the antenna at the back of our (very narrow) yard, and probably running the cable underground to the back of the house, where Comcast has very nicely provided a cable entry point. Anything I need to know about running cable underground? Should I string it up overhead, instead?

-Sarah

FWIW I have a RS VHF/UHF antenna in my attic pointed at Lookout (and have had since 1993), but when I got my first ATSC receiver I installed a separate UHF Yagi pointed at RP and disconnected the UHF portion of my antenna pointed at Lookout.

From Louisville it not only works for the RP stations, but those on Lookout as well.

Signals from Mt. Morrison are shadowed by the foothills for me, so nothing I could do would get me that anyway.

It appears the backyard is a winner! Non-conclusive, but hubby and I "mounted" the antenna on a closet rod and took it out in the backyard, and we received everything except channel 12, with respectable signal strength even on 4-1 (77% according to my STB). I resisted the urge to watch the end of the basketball game...

So, tomorrow well try to figure out how to put up the mast (any suggestions welcome). I think we'll end up putting the antenna at the back of our (very narrow) yard, and probably running the cable underground to the back of the house, where Comcast has very nicely provided a cable entry point. Anything I need to know about running cable underground? Should I string it up overhead, instead?

-Sarah

You won't have any trouble with KCNC up here. KMGH and KTVD are the weak ones.

You won't have any trouble with KCNC up here. KMGH and KTVD are the weak ones.

KMGH was fine, I think KTVD was as well (but I never watch it, so I didn't really check its strength).

I emailed KCNC today about early round Masters coverage and they responded that they will broadcast the UHD HD coverage on Thursday and Friday on ch 35
(4-1 OTA) from 2:00 to 5:00 PM. They will air their regular programming on the SD channel.

Sweeeeeeet... Thanks for the heads up - going to have to skip out of work early those days.

To whoever asked about the older Sony receiver a few days ago, do you get KRMA? (18 remapped to 8-1) It still makes my Zenith receiver go whacko, might be what is giving yours problems. I was emailing with their engineer but haven't heard back for a few days now.

Sweeeeeeet... Thanks for the heads up - going to have to skip out of work early those days.

To whoever asked about the older Sony receiver a few days ago, do you get KRMA? (18 remapped to 8-1) It still makes my Zenith receiver go whacko, might be what is giving yours problems. I was emailing with their engineer but haven't heard back for a few days now.
That was me! I thought I was going to have to line my windows with tin foil, but you say you actually have the same problem (by the way, 18 remaps to 6-1, not 8-1, right?). If I accidently highlight 6.1 in the guide, or in the channel edit grid, the screen flashes and 30 seconds later it begins creating a new channel list. The other day, I tuned to 6.1, so the list started looping over and over. I don't remember how I stopped it; it stopped itself. Just now, I accidentally crossed 6.1 in the guide with the cursor, and it began again.
Please forward this posting to the KRMA engineer, or let me know his name, and I will. Thanks.

Unfortunately, certain older receivers (mine included) are STILL having a great deal of trouble with the new and un-improved 'countless sub-channel' KRMA. I'm really surprised after this many weeks that it has yet to be rectified. I will try to drop an E-mail to their engineers as well.

I guess they still haven't released the details of which 63 games were going to be broadcast in HD (last line of the press release). It would be nice for those without cable to be able to get those games OTA.

:mad: I found out that KTVD will be broadcasting a grand total of ZERO Rockies games in HD this season. I could not get the specifics, but it had something to do with the fact that FSN Rocky Mtn. (which produces all of the Rockies games, including the ones aired on KTVD) will only have games in HD when the opposing team is broadcasting in HD (to split costs?), and even then they have to be another FSN affiliate (because of local rights?), and then an HD truck has to be available, etc. etc. In short, the information I found was all a little confusing, other than to say that it will involve more money on somebody's part, and that that money was not going to be appearing this season. Oh well.

Hello, I was wondering if anyone had some advice for me.

I moved to Denver last june. I have a directv hd dvr. It is the old tivo one, so it doesn't pick up the mpeg 4 directtv locals. Instead I have a rabbit ears style antenna plugged into it.

Anyways, my problem is this. I have been using this same setup since i moved here last june, and I never had a single dropout on an OTA local until about 1.5 months ago. All of a sudden fox (kdvr it think) started having small drop outs, and it has been getting significantly worse and now it wont tune to kdvr at all.

I have not ruled out that it is an equipment problem, although I find it unlikely. Nothing in my setup has changed, and the antenna i have is sitting in the same spot it has always been. I get 95% strength on 7-1, 9-1 and 4-1, and I used to get around 75% strength on 31-1, but now 31-1 is only coming in at 10% to 15%.
I tried plugging the antenna into my tv's atsc tunner and bypassing the tivo. When I do that, I can at least get a minute or so of a steady picture on kdvr before the pictures starts breaking up, but there are still tons of dropouts. I attribute that to my tv's atsc tunner being more tolerant than the tivo's tuner, however the signal is still no where near acceptable for watching.

So i guess I am wondering if kdvr has done something recently that would cause this? Would a different antenna make a difference? I don't have the option of getting a "real" antenna, i don't have an attic since I am in an apartment, and my landlord isn't going to allow one on the building.

For reference I live around 1st and broadway, antennaweb says im only 13 miles from 31-1 and less than 2 miles from 7-1,4-1,9-1. I don't have the model of my antenna, but its your basic rabbit ears style setup with a UHF element.

Any information or advice would be appreciated.

Welcome viscious99! I would guess that with spring here, you may be getting some blockage from trees that are budding out. Reception in Denver is a matter of inches. Try moving the antenna around in your house. Worse case would be the need to put the antenna on the roof or attic... or get a better antenna. Nobody can stop you from putting up an antenna outside.

It will be great in 2009 when our local stations are broadcasting from Lookout at full power.

Good luck!

It will be great in 2009 when our local stations are broadcasting from Lookout at full power.Except that the station he's having problems with is already on Lookout Mountain at a reasonably high power level (within 3db of full power).

The problem perhaps, is that occasional signal degradation on analog affects picture quality but not continuity.

viscious99,

If I understand your location, RP is directly North and LM is directly West of you. In what direction is your antenna pointed? You may need to try to split the difference and point it NW to see if you get all the stations with sufficient signal strength. 2-1 and 31-1 are coming from LM at higher power levels. 12-x is also directly West of you coming from Squaw Mtn at very low power. 4-1, 6-1, 7-1, 9-1 (and 20-1?) are coming from Republic Plaza at very low power levels.

Thanks for the replies. I hadn't considered the change in season and the extra vegetation, I guess that would make sense considering the timeline. Although through last summer and fall I had no issues with 31-1 and I am pretty sure vegetation was in full bloom.

If push comes to shove I could probably get an outdoor antenna installed on the roof of my building, but it's just not worth it to me right now. I don't have a 30 foot ladder nor a hammer drill capable of going through the concrete walls that my building is made of, so I'd have to hire a professional to install it, plus buy an antenna. And at this point that cost is not worth it to impove my crummy apartment.

I believe you have my location correct. RP is directly north of me and less than a mile away, and then lookout mountain is just about directly west (i think). That could be one of my problems, as my antenna is pointed directly at RP. I didn't realise that kdvr was on LM I figured it was where the other big 3 networks were, since I drive by the the fox building everyday and its real close to the abc building.

@Ron i followed the link in your signature, and I read through the time line you have posted. That was a nice resource for me; I was vaguely aware that there was something strange going on in denver with regard to building a new tower, but I hadn't done any real research on it. Your time line has clarified it for me, and i appreciate the work you put into it.

Ok, so once again thanks for the replies. If moving my antenna and re pointing it doesnt help, I guess my next step will be to go for a new antenna. Does anyone have a recomendation on a good indoor uhf antenna. And when I say indoor, I mean one that I could set on top of the tv or on a bookshelf somehwere, as I have no attic?

Ok, so once again thanks for the replies. If moving my antenna and re pointing it doesnt help, I guess my next step will be to go for a new antenna. Does anyone have a recomendation on a good indoor uhf antenna. And when I say indoor, I mean one that I could set on top of the tv or on a bookshelf somehwere, as I have no attic?You might want to try hanging a CM3021 (http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=ANC3021) or a CM4228 (http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=ANC4228) on an interior wall. If you had a decent signal with rabbit ears, that may be enough improvement to work. Either of those antennae will hang relatively flat against a wall.

You might want to try hanging a CM3021 (http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=ANC3021) or a CM4228 (http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=ANC4228) on an interior wall. If you had a decent signal with rabbit ears, that may be enough improvement to work. Either of those antennae will hang relatively flat against a wall.
You da man! I couldn't have said it better myself! :p
....jc

That was me! I thought I was going to have to line my windows with tin foil, but you say you actually have the same problem (by the way, 18 remaps to 6-1, not 8-1, right?). If I accidently highlight 6.1 in the guide, or in the channel edit grid, the screen flashes and 30 seconds later it begins creating a new channel list. The other day, I tuned to 6.1, so the list started looping over and over. I don't remember how I stopped it; it stopped itself. Just now, I accidentally crossed 6.1 in the guide with the cursor, and it began again.
Please forward this posting to the KRMA engineer, or let me know his name, and I will. Thanks.

Whoops - yep meant 6.1. Sounds like our problems are definitely similar. His name is Dan Entingh, seems like a nice guy. Email is Dan_Entingh@krma.pbs.org. It would be nice if they could get this figured out, I do enjoy their nature shows now and then since I don't get Discovery HD anymore.

Here's a portion of a press release from Dish Network issued this afternoon:

ENGLEWOOD, Colo.--(BUSINESS WIRE)--April 4, 2007--EchoStar Communications Corporation (NASDAQ: DISH) and its DISH Network(TM) satellite TV service announced today the launch of seven Regional Sports Networks (RSNs) in high definition (HD) that will strengthen DISH Network's position as the leader in HD programming. Now avid fans in these seven markets will have access to their home team's games in vivid HD and stunning surround sound.

"Sports fans have been driving the HD movement for quite some time now so naturally we're excited to offer regional coverage of games and sporting events in this amazing and graphic picture quality," said Eric Sahl, senior vice president of Programming for DISH Network. "Whether it's baseball, basketball, football, college or professional, there's no better way to watch all the action than in HD and DISH Network has a great sports lineup and the most national HD channels today."

The seven HD RSNs launched today include Fox Sports Network Florida (DISH Network Ch. 373), Fox Sports Network Midwest (Ch. 368), Fox Sports Network West (Ch. 367), Fox Sports Network Prime Ticket (Ch. 361), Fox Sports Network Rocky Mountain (Ch. 364), Fox Sports Network South (Ch. 370) and Fox Sports Network Southwest (Ch. 366).

DISH Network will continue to explore carriage of additional HD RSNs throughout the year to enhance local HD programming line-ups. In addition to the seven RSNs announced today, DISH Network will begin offering Sun Sports and SportSouth this spring as well as Altitude this fall.

So maybe KTVD channel 20 won't have any Rockies HD games, but Fox RM will. Also, notice that E* will finally be carrying Altitude HD in the fall.

You might want to try hanging a CM3021 (http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=ANC3021) or a CM4228 (http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=ANC4228) on an interior wall.Sound advice from a technical standpoint, but as a practical matter this is only an option for folks who are single.

Sound advice from a technical standpoint, but as a practical matter this is only an option for folks who are single.

Seems like jewelry has been suggested on these pages before to overcome the WAF. ;)

Thanks for the replies. I hadn't considered the change in season and the extra vegetation, I guess that would make sense considering the timeline. Although through last summer and fall I had no issues with 31-1 and I am pretty sure vegetation was in full bloom.

Ok, so once again thanks for the replies. If moving my antenna and re pointing it doesnt help, I guess my next step will be to go for a new antenna. Does anyone have a recomendation on a good indoor uhf antenna. And when I say indoor, I mean one that I could set on top of the tv or on a bookshelf somehwere, as I have no attic?

Viscious,

I'm just a few blocks to your East near 1st & Logan. I still get good reception on KDVR, although I have noticed a drop in signal strength recently, which I attributed to the trees starting to bud. Since you're having trouble locking it altogether, I wonder if the new Condos/Townhomes that are under construction near 4th & Acoma (where the big yellow tower crane currently is) are having an effect on us? It should be a little east of our Lookout Mtn. LOS, but who knows, stranger things have happened.

For the record, I have been using the very reliable Silver Sensor for two years now from my location, and it works great. It's pointed WNW more toward LM than RP, and gets everything consistently, but KBDI from Squaw, which comes and goes (since they have no HD, I don't really care). It's so small and unobtrusive, that I've had friends over that don't even notice it setting in the corner of my living room until I point it out to them. In short I highly recommend it for your situation.

Whatever you decide, good luck.

Sound advice from a technical standpoint, but as a practical matter this is only an option for folks who are single.
http://www.panelcrafters.net/rotflmao.gifhttp://www.panelcrafters.net/rotflmao.gifhttp://www.panelcrafters.net/rotflmao.gifhttp://www.panelcrafters.net/rotflmao.gifhttp://www.panelcrafters.net/rotflmao.gifhttp://www.panelcrafters.net/rotflmao.gifhttp://www.panelcrafters.net/rotflmao.gifhttp://www.panelcrafters.net/rotflmao.gifhttp://www.panelcrafters.net/rotflmao.gif

Unfortunately, that is probably a true statement.
....jc

@Ron i followed the link in your signature, and I read through the time line you have posted. That was a nice resource for me; I was vaguely aware that there was something strange going on in denver with regard to building a new tower, but I hadn't done any real research on it. Your time line has clarified it for me, and i appreciate the work you put into it. For the DenverDTV.info website, thank Ernie Santella. For all the links that are broken on his website, thank me! (I'll get to fixing those some day!)

I should update the denverdtv.info website. It's a bit old and outdated. Maybe after we hear JJ's response which should come any day now.

Bump. Where did everybody go? I don't post very often, but I read this thread. Took some effort to even find it on page 4 or 5 or 6?

Do we need to combine OTA and Comcast and Satellite and northern and southern Colorado into one thread after all this time?

The good news is Carney and crew are clearly dead and buried? Yeah! Maybe, I should just go enjoy myself outdoors and with the HD that I already like.

I was wondering the same thing about this thread. Admittedly the controversy is effectively ended and we just have to wait for the builders to do their thing but ther is still stuff to talk about...

The good news is Carney and crew are clearly dead and buried? Yeah! Maybe, I should just go enjoy myself outdoors and with the HD that I already like.Never underestimate the stupidity of judges; one may still grant an injunction against LCG based on Deb's baseless Constitutional argument on the basis of "you can't unbuild the tower once it's started."

Also, even though it's purely procedural, I'm not sure if LCG is bound at all by the injunction JJ has yet to lift.

Finally, LCG can take their time as I suspect they're still waiting to see if the 2009 date will hold before doing more work than they have already. (Have they hired a tower erecting firm yet, or is there a year or more of ground prep to be done first? Certainly if they go with the mostly buried equipment building as was in their proposal, there's at least a year of construction right there.)

For the record, I have been using the very reliable Silver Sensor for two years now from my location, and it works great. It's pointed WNW more toward LM than RP, and gets everything consistently, but KBDI from Squaw, which comes and goes (since they have no HD, I don't really care). It's so small and unobtrusive, that I've had friends over that don't even notice it setting in the corner of my living room until I point it out to them. In short I highly recommend it for your situation......

We've had a Silver Sensor on our "Studio 5" set for over six months. No one has even noticed. BTW, we've tested it, and it works fine where it sits. ;)

Ch 7 needs to proofread their onscreen messages. During Boston Legal, they ran a crawl saying the show wasn't going to be available in "High Defination." Pity.

Ch 7 needs to proofread their onscreen messages. During Boston Legal, they ran a crawl saying the show wasn't going to be available in "High Defination." Pity.
Just be glad they didn't accidentally add a C or it could have been much, much worse.....

Anyone's antennas or dishes get wind damage today?
I'm happy to report my 2 platforms have not budged in 8 months.

Certainly if they go with the mostly buried equipment building as was in their proposal, there's at least a year of construction right there.)
Oh, please!(sorry :o ). If they really wanted to get it done, it would be done in a few months.

The entire Empire State Building only took 1 year and 45 days.
And, this is one(what 20,000 sqft?) building, and a tower. Big deal.

If it's a case of needing to get it done, or getting it done as cheaply as possible, today, as cheaply wins hands down.
....jc

Transmitter Coverage Maps for Google Earth

I don't see that anyone has posted this information here about the sticky thread in the HDTV Hardware Reception forum with very useful coverage maps for analog and digital TV stations and translators. The kmz files have been revised and now expanded for files covering the top 20 DMAs, including Denver. He is using the current FCC database, so if you see errors in it, post to the thread linked below. These files combined with Google Earth are a neat tool to see what the reception strength is for each station if you zoom down to your neighborhood or your street and flip through the stations. See http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=821480 if you are interested.

Just be glad they didn't accidentally add a C or it could have been much, much worse.....

Anyone's antennas or dishes get wind damage today?
I'm happy to report my 2 platforms have not budged in 8 months.

Took me a while to get it. That's pretty good. Next time something HD at work malfunctions I'll have to use that.

I have my dish bolted to the side of the house about four feet off the ground. It's right next to my deck. I lose patio furniture off the deck all the time. The dish hasn't budged in seven years.

-Glen

:mad: I found out that KTVD will be broadcasting a grand total of ZERO Rockies games in HD this season. I could not get the specifics, but it had something to do with the fact that FSN Rocky Mtn. (which produces all of the Rockies games, including the ones aired on KTVD) will only have games in HD when the opposing team is broadcasting in HD (to split costs?), and even then they have to be another FSN affiliate (because of local rights?), and then an HD truck has to be available, etc. etc. In short, the information I found was all a little confusing, other than to say that it will involve more money on somebody's part, and that that money was not going to be appearing this season. Oh well.
Then they won't be doing 63 games in HD - unless they also do some road games. Any idea how to contact FSN and/or find out the HD schedule?

Then they won't be doing 63 games in HD - unless they also do some road games. Any idea how to contact FSN and/or find out the HD schedule?
According to the fox sports schedule for April, two games are to be in HD this month. One was Apr 2 (opening day here) and the other is April 30 (in San Francisco).

That came from here: http://msn.foxsports.com/id/7458769

Don't know when the May schedule will be released.

Thanks for the info. How do you get to this schedule - can't find a link off of the home page.

Just be glad they didn't accidentally add a C or it could have been much, much worse.....

Anyone's antennas or dishes get wind damage today?
I'm happy to report my 2 platforms have not budged in 8 months.

No damage here, and that's with my not-yet-installed VU190 attached to the mast, about 6 feet off the ground, stuck into a 6" clothesline support hole in my backyard--in other words, pretty much unsecured.

-Sarah

Thanks for the info. How do you get to this schedule - can't find a link off of the home page.
Searching mostly. From this page http://msn.foxsports.com/name/HD#FSRocky, you can click on the 'Get printable schedules' link near the top of the page to get tha page I previously linked, or just read the FSN Rocky Mountain section and get the same information.

Thanks again - I found it. Pretty non-impressive schedule. Going to fall a tad short of 63 games at this pace.

Still nothing from JJ?

Tim,

Nothing yet. The timeline is JJ closed new info submission on March 27. Then he has up to 18 days to review/research all the info. The question is... is that 18 working days or 18 calender days. And to add to this, he was on vacation last week, so, I bet that pushes the clock back another week.

I bet Nacchio will be in prison stripes before he finally rules! ;)

I was wondering the same thing about this thread. Admittedly the controversy is effectively ended and we just have to wait for the builders to do their thing but ther is still stuff to talk about...

I was in Denver last week. I took a look at Lookout Mountain with all of those towers up there. I don't know when I'll be back again, but I'm hoping the 'mountain backdrop' will be much improved next time I look up there.

--- CHAS

Tim,

Nothing yet. The timeline is JJ closed new info submission on March 27. Then he has up to 18 days to review/research all the info. The question is... is that 18 working days or 18 calender days. And to add to this, he was on vacation last week, so, I bet that pushes the clock back another week.

I bet Nacchio will be in prison stripes before he finally rules! ;)

When it's judicial, it may be 18 business days for rulings. So that would put the deadline around April 20. Either way, it won't be long now!

Is there a web page and someone with a camera to track the changes up there, over time?

Moving into a rental ... does anyone here have reception experience with NE Longmont? (CO 66 and Pace area). Any suggestions on what to use since this is a 6 month lease?

# Matt

Moving into a rental ... Any suggestions on what to use since this is a 6 month lease? Matt
Hey Matt, I am also renting. The condo president was quite adamant about what I could/could not do for an antenna. He was quite happy with my solution of using a weighted platform with a heavy rubber layer underneath it. Despite all of the wind and snowstorms it has been 100% reliable. I only drillleed 1 hole for the coax through the wall behind my TV. The antenna is also connected to a rooftop ground that is shared by all of the dishes up there which connects to the main building electrical ground. The antenna is a Winegard PR4400 and the mount is a standard DBS mast. Hope this is helpful.

http://home.earthlink.net/~lu_max/AVS/new_setup.JPG

I just purchased a VX32L Vizio LCD and it has a feature to show a guide on digital stations. I assume that guide information is part of the information included with the digital signal.

The guide information includes upcoming program information for most of the OTA digital stations I receive, but the time for KMGH-DT 7-1 is wrong by one hour. It appears they have never switched the time information being sent out to DST.

It certainly is not critical, but if anyone here has a contact at KMGH, maybe they could ask why they don't update their clock.

Hey Matt, I am also renting. The condo president was quite adamant about what I could/could not do for an antenna. He was quite happy with my solution of using a weighted platform with a heavy rubber layer underneath it. Despite all of the wind and snowstorms it has been 100% reliable. I only drillleed 1 hole for the coax through the wall behind my TV. The antenna is also connected to a rooftop ground that is shared by all of the dishes up there which connects to the main building electrical ground. The antenna is a Winegard PR4400 and the mount is a standard DBS mast. Hope this is helpful.


Thanks Jetlag ... that is helpful! I will be talking w/ the owner tonight and now have ideas for options.

Love the PIC ... are there really that many dishes that don't have a LNB attached?

# Matt

Judge Jackson has ruled.

LCG's motion to dismiss the case due to Public Law No. 109-266 is denied for two reasons, first is the act "does not sweep as broadly as Lake Cedar claims," and second, "subsequent events have rendered Lake Cedar's motion moot."

"The Court now enters its final order and judgment vacating its prior stay order in case 03CV3045, affirming the decision of the Board as expressed in Resolution No. CC07-118, and denying any and all remaining motions or challenges to the Board's decision."

So, the courts have lifted the stay, and affirmed the rezoning. They have also said Public Law 109-266 is not as broad as LCG would like. They have not said if permits are needed or not, so I guess that will be worked out later...???

-Wabisabi

So the tower is good to go? Or there are strings attached? Please spell it out.

IANAL, but my interpretation is that:

a) the case that sCARE brought against JeffCo has been dismissed
b) the land rezoning that JeffCo approved in 2003 is affirmed
c) the injunction is history
d) because of a) b) and c) the judge refused LCG's request to lift the injunction (ie, the judge wanted to say he lifted the injunction of his own judicial free will, not because LCG asked him to)
e) LCG does not have free reign on Lookout just because of 109-266.

This is great news, although the judge's calling out of 109-266 makes me wonder if there isn't something else going on behind the scenes. I hope it's just Judge Jackson marking his territory.

So the tower is good to go? Or there are strings attached? Please spell it out.Sounds to me like JJ wants to pretend that the new law doesn't exist and that he is just affirming the Jeffco BOCC decision to approve the towers - with whatever strings were in the original proposal by LCG ( such as open space dedication, etc.). So if LCG wants their full rights under the new law, they'll have to go to federal court to get them.

He sure has an exaggerated view of his role, I would say.

Does anyone have a cite on the web for JJ's ruling?

Without reading exactly what he said, it looks like JJ's position is that the JeffCo BOCC control the fate of what LCG wants to do by his affirming their rezoning approval and discounting PL 109-266, so I echo what oxothuk posted. Looks like there may be a fight over building permits, open space, RF monitoring, etc. and if there is, I hope it ends up federal court.

Does anyone have a cite on the web for JJ's ruling?

Without reading exactly what he said, it looks like JJ's position is that the JeffCo BOCC control the fate of what LCG wants to do by his affirming their rezoning approval and discounting PL 109-266, so I echo what oxothuk posted. Looks like there may be a fight over building permits, open space, RF monitoring, etc. and if there is, I hope it ends up federal court.
Even if this does happen I assume that tower construction will go on unabated. By the time it could possibly reach Federal court the tower should (fingers crossed) be operational. Finally, I think a Federal judge might have a different interpretation than JJs (who's opinion is moot at this point).

Just Start Building Aready!

Any online pointers to JJ's rulling? It would make some fun reading. I agree mostly w/ oxothuk, except that LCG should do what they are allowed under 109-266 and let the other side spent the $$ taking it to court to fight the law if they desire. The ball is no longer in LCG's court to press to the fed system since all they need to do is follow the law.

# Matt

Guys,
I hate to poo-poo the party, but there's serious issues still to be resolved before construction.

- The building for one. Underground or above (Above ground is cheaper, but underground is in the LCGII proposal)
- Antennas - Omni or directional (LCG would rather have omni for better coverage, but directional are in the LCGII also)

What would you do? Build an above ground building only to have to rebuild it?
Order Omni antennas only to have to reinstall directional later?

My guess is that the LCG will likely build pretty much along the lines of the proposal as approved by the BOCC (i.e. underground) with the possible exception of turning over the property from the old towers for Open Space. I think if they deviate from the approved plan they are likely to open the door for additional appeals and delays in JJ's court. I think that is what JJ meant when he said he is not sure the new law is as sweeping as the LCG presented. I think he wants to maintain jurisdiction over any future cases. that are brought. Whether that is possible or could be overruled by a Federal Court remains to be seen, but if the LCG builds according to the plan presented to the BOCC, I think there are not grounds for an appeal in his court.

Just my $0.02, although I must be open and admit IANAL and have never slept in a Holiday Inn Express.

Article in the Rocky. Doesn't say much.

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/local/article/0,1299,DRMN_15_5491545,00.html

Article in the Rocky. Doesn't say much.
]
A dramatic understatement if ever there was one. Especially after 10 or so years of back and forth on this issue, it makes it sound like all of the parties involved are now just 'one big happy family'. :D

Build the equipment vault underground. There's lots of monetary horsepower behind LCG so spend the cash to make the site look nice. It's a more complex project but it's a one time expense and there's probably a tax write-off somewhere. They better start now.

They can buy any antenna they want that doesn't cause the RF power density to exceed Government RF exposure limits.

--- CHAS

I think LCG might be "SMART" to build according to LCG2, just to prevent any possible lawsuits from being brought. Some of the "other provisions" (monitoring of RF for example) could be dropped.

Well if I remember correctly the underground equipment building was scheduled to take about a year to construct, so that goes along with everyone's prediction that LCG will go live with digital from Lookout on the day analog NTSC is shut off, and not before.

Also, recall the Federal legislation covered only construction of the towers; JeffCo is free to apply whatever building code regulations they feel like (within the limits of the law) to the associated equipment building(s). So for example, if it is built underground, expect them to require soil tests, testimony on whether digging could possibly alter drainage and cause landslides elsewhere on the mountain, etc. If the buildings are built above ground, expect them to require engineering reports as far as roof snow loads, power, ADA accessibility, etc.

The game's not over by a longshot. :(

I've got JJ's order if anyone wants to read it. (It's a PDF)

Judge Jackson's Final Order (http://www.santellaproductions.com/dtv/JJOrder.PDF)

I've got JJ's order if anyone wants to read it. (It's a PDF)

Judge Jackson's Final Order (http://www.santellaproductions.com/dtv/JJOrder.PDF)Interesting that he thinks the Jeffco BOCC decision makes 109-266 "moot". He gives zero detail as to why he thinks 109-266 is narrower than a straightforward reading would indicate. Strange logic.

That reads like a judge who 'enjoyed' being the one in control of the situation, and now as someone who is reluctant to give up that control due to any Federal Law. His basic claim is still that only his court is still qualified to make the final decision. (My translation as one non lawyer to the non lawyers here "It's my ball and we play by my rules or I will take my ball and go home")

Any way you read it though, it looks like the LCG has no more excuses other than to proceed with the construction according to the plan they presented to the BOCC.
:D

Hey Ernie - is it safe to ask LCG when the celebration BBQ will be yet?

Ernie, thanks for the JJ link.

After I read JJ's decision, it just amazes me how this guy thinks. He denied LCG's motion to lift the injunction for two reasons which, if you read his statements literally, each stand on their own.

First, he dismisses Public Law 109-266 as not preempting JeffCo's zoning authority "except for its specific and limited terms". He gives no detail regarding what those specific and limited terms are. IMO, a court cannot state that a law is not applicable to an action before it without explaining its non-applicability. So this first reason to deny LCG's motion is the equivalent of "cause I said so".

JJ then goes on and states for his second reason that since JeffCo has now approved the rezoning, they have merely taken the action he ordered them to do last year (make a decision) and, since that decision grants LCG's rezoning request, the injunction can now be lifted.

Had JeffCo not approved LCG's rezoning request (considering they, sCARE, and LCG all had attorneys at their disposal who clearly concluded Public Law 109-266 did preempt local authority to deny LCG's rezoing request), JJ evidently would have denied LCG's motion on the basis of his first, unexplained reason alone. If I'm sCARE and the BOCC, I would be kicking myself right now for approving the rezoning request as it is evident from JJ's convoluted thought process that he would have denied lifting the injunction considering Public Law 109-266 as the sole factor.

JJ evidently believes that all of the attorneys who worked on this issue, including those who wrote it, are not as all knowing and omniscent as he is. Perhaps JJ is Carnac The Magnificent reincarnated.

As kind of a meaningless afterthought, Public Law 109-266 is one sentence, containing 113 words.

Also, recall the Federal legislation covered only construction of the towers; JeffCo is free to apply whatever building code regulations they feel like (within the limits of the law) to the associated equipment building(s).

I'm sorry but the above is incorrect. PL 109-266 includes "and all accompanying facilities and services associated with such digital television broadcasts". As long as LGC follows UBC (or is it now IBC) they are covered.

# Matt

Had JeffCo not approved LCG's rezoning request (considering they, sCARE, and LCG all had attorneys at their disposal who clearly concluded Public Law 109-266 did preempt local authority to deny LCG's rezoing request), JJ evidently would have denied LCG's motion on the basis of his first, unexplained reason alone. Taking his words literally, yes. But I don't think he would have been so bold as that, knowing that LCG would then go straight to Federal Court where a judge would have quickly affirmed all of their rights under 109-266.

No, this ruling and the BOCC "approval" were a coordinated action to get Jeffco the best they could hope for after 109-266 - enforcing the additional conditions on LCG2. I'm not saying that actually discussed it together, but clearly BOCC was signalling JJ as to what they wanted.

That Judge is a piece of work. It looks to me that he went out of his way - with obviously no supporting justification - to say that the rezoning was approved so LCG must follow the LCG2 plans and honor that agreement. Somehow he thinks the JeffCo rezoning supersedes SB4092. IANAL but it seems to me that his ruling is a thinly veiled attempt to make sure that JeffCo has full authority over the process. Awhile back I argued that all this maneuvering by the BCC was to try and salvage as much authority as they could (ie, building permits, etc) and evidently JJ came to their aid with his 2 cents. Given that he's a JeffCo judge I'm not really surprised. Then again if he is correct then Carney's 10th amendment argument against SB4092 is meaningless. Seems to me his ruling further slammed the scare door shut.

Well if I remember correctly the underground equipment building was scheduled to take about a year to construct, so that goes along with everyone's prediction that LCG will go live with digital from Lookout on the day analog NTSC is shut off, and not before.

Also, recall the Federal legislation covered only construction of the towers; JeffCo is free to apply whatever building code regulations they feel like (within the limits of the law) to the associated equipment building(s). So for example, if it is built underground, expect them to require soil tests, testimony on whether digging could possibly alter drainage and cause landslides elsewhere on the mountain, etc. If the buildings are built above ground, expect them to require engineering reports as far as roof snow loads, power, ADA accessibility, etc.

The game's not over by a longshot. :(

Huh? The injunction is lifted. Game over. The property is re-zoned and the building dept. cannot withhold the building permit. Of course, you need to meet code, but you just have to meet code, not argue over drainage ramifications. Those discussions are over unless the LCG wishes to submit modified plans to the county. Perhaps LCG will just build a modified version without a permit, inviting future legal action. I just don't think that will happen. LCG has spent enough on legal costs. I believe the LCGII proposal will go up as submitted.

As Geof and JM pointed out, R. Brooke Jackson is really something. He takes a jab at the federal law and passes the buck onto the BCC. However, he finally did vacate the stay. I am glad we have seen the last of him and his "with all due haste" comments.

Don

I guess I have a different reading of this.

Judge Jackson said that he denied LCG's motion to dismiss CARE's lawsuit because the motion to dismiss was moot. If Judge Jackson were to have made any official determination on the Public Law, then that determination would be what the opposition could appeal. By not ruling on the Public Law, he basically said that the rezoning was done properly, so the Stay is lifted. This is the most expedient ruling he could have made, in my opinion.

(By expedient I mean least likely to be challenged any further, so that LCG can build the facility without legal issues getting in the way. So long as LCG follows the rezoning, there will probably be no more lawsuits over them. If they choose to say the Public Law gives them the right to build what they want how they want, then there may be further challenges, who knows?)

-Wabisabi (IANAL either)

I guess I have a different reading of this.

Judge Jackson said that he denied LCG's motion to dismiss CARE's lawsuit because the motion to dismiss was moot. If Judge Jackson were to have made any official determination on the Public Law, then that determination would be what the opposition could appeal. By not ruling on the Public Law, he basically said that the rezoning was done properly, so the Stay is lifted. This is the most expedient ruling he could have made, in my opinion.

(By expedient I mean least likely to be challenged any further, so that LCG can build the facility without legal issues getting in the way. So long as LCG follows the rezoning, there will probably be no more lawsuits over them. If they choose to say the Public Law gives them the right to build what they want how they want, then there may be further challenges, who knows?)

-Wabisabi (IANAL either)

I would agree with you if he had left out the statement "First, the act does not sweep as broadly as Lake Cedar claims. The act does not purport to preempt the Board’s zoning authority except on its specific and limited terms." I think he overstepped on that statement. He could have left it out and ruled that the property was rezoned, the Federal Law impact was a mute point and the construction could begin just as you state. I think that quotation was a veiled attempt to actually make a "determination on Public Law" except he worded it in such a way that it would not be binding or provide (S)CARE etc. any additional talking points in any future legal action. (IANAL either, so this is just my own speculation). Maybe one of us should stay at a Holiday Inn Express tonight and let us know the 'real' answer. :)

Interesting read .. and I agree with wabi's color commentary.

All of JJ's efforts (or lack thereof) for the past year + was to get the BOCC to confirm the rezoning approval and not let them deny the rezoning w/o competent supporting evidence. Voting 'No' (or Hell No!) without justification is what they tried to do. My analogy is that JJ is like a parent trying to get an older child (BOCC) to act like a responsible adult.

There's two things at the end of the ruling that make it a great read:


"the Court now enters its final order and judgment vacating its prior stay order in case 03CV3045, affirming the decision of the Board as expressed in Resolution No. CC07-118, and denying any and all remaining motions or challenges to the Board’s decision." So I guess approving the rezoning 3 times is the charm. There should be no more voting on the rezoning application.
"The Court awards the Board its costs against the plaintiffs in 03CV3045 as provided by law."Deb, sCARE, and cronies have to pay the BOCC their court costs. :p


JJ is back to being a good guy in my book (or at least Switzerland)

So....is the tower up yet?

So....is the tower up yet?
Sure, just close your eyes and click you heels together.... and repeat "There's no place like home. There's no place like home"......... :D

Deb, sCARE, and cronies have to pay the BOCC their court costs. :p



If this is true, I will be very happy! :D

Wouldn't they also have to pay LCG's legal fees ?

sCARE finally posted a response to JJ's ruling. (They're still bitching - get a clue, it's over)

http://www.c-a-r-e.org/

Also, a story in the Post.

http://www.denverpost.com/search/ci_5699316

Unfortunately, the issue is still unresolved.
?? I don't know, it seems resolved to me as long as the construction of the current facility follows the original plan. I don't see that they would be limited to 8 stations in any future modifications, since according to the Federal Law they are allowed to modify the facilities in the future, I assume as long as they follow normal building codes. It seems to me they only need to build it per the original plan and then modify it in the future for whatever they need. IANAL

Huh? The injunction is lifted. Game over. The property is re-zoned and the building dept. cannot withhold the building permit. Of course, you need to meet code, but you just have to meet code, not argue over drainage ramifications.Are you sure about that? Doesn't it depend to a certain degree on what JeffCo's building code reads, especially when it comes to underground construction?

So they can't prohibit the construction, but I'm sure the building inspectors will be instructed to visit the site as often as possible and to hold them to the precise language of the code and to measure things to the millimeter.

Or, to quote the Denver Post's article:

Construction of a broadcast tower on Lookout Mountain may proceed, but under Jefferson County's monitoring, according to a court ruling made public Wednesday.
The question is how intense that "monitoring" will be.

To quote further from the article:

Golden officials said that while they are pleased, the ruling means Lake Cedar is building without a permit.

Assistant County Attorney Eric Butler said Lake Cedar will need grading, building and telecommunications permits.
One can only guess how many hoops LCG will need to jump through to get those permits, and how many times the applications for those permits will "get lost."

So, no, it isn't over by a long shot; I'm sure JeffCo could delay the permits pretty much indefinitely without any real difficulty whatsoever.

I wouldn't be at all surprised to find that LCG will have to go back to court at least once more to try and work out what the federal law really implies when it's late 2008 and JeffCo is still "processing" the permit applications.

JJ's ruling purportedly gave JeffCo authority over the building process and it would be my guess that LCG will oblige so long as JeffCo acts in good faith and coughs up the permits on a timely basis and is reasonable and responsible with their inspections. JeffCo may feel like they regained control but if they attempt to further delay or hinder the process I'd think LCG will have them in US District Court on the grounds that SB4092 overrides JeffCo involvement. SB4092 is still a big stick and I don't think LCG will be afraid to use it if their dealings with JeffCo become difficult.

On another note....As far as I recall JeffCo approved the rezoning for Morrison and we all got happy thinking KRMA had won a major victory but to my knowledge nothing ever got built because of problems associated with getting a building permit. Proper zoning is one hurdle for getting a building permit but it's not the only requirement. I don't know what JeffCo requires but I'm sure they'd hold back any permits until they approve the building and tower plans. I don't know if they'll require an environmental impact statement (for example). Maybe Wabasabi can chime in and let us know what the County requires for construction of this type....

The broadcasters need to start construction now to meet the 2009 deadline with built in lead time for schedule slippage. They will face Government sanctions if they are not ready so they will go on the air from Lookout even if that requires continuing use of the end of life towers. Who, with the exception of sCare with their convoluted logic, would want that?

It makes zero sense, especially in view of the current legal framework, for the county to be uncooperative and delay the project any longer.

--- CHAS

On another note....As far as I recall JeffCo approved the rezoning for Morrison and we all got happy thinking KRMA had won a major victory but to my knowledge nothing ever got built because of problems associated with getting a building permit. Proper zoning is one hurdle for getting a building permit but it's not the only requirement. I don't know what JeffCo requires but I'm sure they'd hold back any permits until they approve the building and tower plans. I don't know if they'll require an environmental impact statement (for example). Maybe Wabasabi can chime in and let us know what the County requires for construction of this type....

Mt. Morrison was rezoned, platted (subdivided) and in the process of getting its building permits (a site development plan) when the courts ruled that Jeffco did not follow proper procedures when allowing the rezoning. Jeffco is challenging this ruling in court. So for now, no new tower on Morrison until this legal fight is over. (You can visit CARE's web site for the court's ruling)

-Wabisabi

On another note....As far as I recall JeffCo approved the rezoning for Morrison and we all got happy thinking KRMA had won a major victory but to my knowledge nothing ever got built because of problems associated with getting a building permit.I'm not so sure building permits are whats keeping the horizontal tower from getting started. It's more likely KRMA financial woes. I wouldn't be suprised if sometime this year LCG announces KRMA is back in the fold.

Edit: I stand corrected .. its due to legal wrangling .. who'd a thunk!

The broadcasters need to start construction now to meet the 2009 deadline with built in lead time for schedule slippage. They will face Government sanctions if they are not ready so they will go on the air from Lookout even if that requires continuing use of the end of life towers. Who, with the exception of sCare with their convoluted logic, would want that?

The Denver networks were required to be on the air in digital by November 1999. IMO, the stations put little effort into meeting that deadline or getting on the air for the next few years. Despite this (and letter writing compaigns), the stations have not faced any government sanctions in the last eight years. So, I would not expect them to face any now if they cannot meet the analog shutoff date.

Getting every station into compliance is much more critical to a successful DTV transition then it was back in 1999. I know there have been complaints about them not using full power from the downtown site. It's my understanding they have special authority to do that but they will not be protected from interference by doing so. Do they care about interference on their temporary channels? Off course not .. the general public (not us) couldn't care less about over-the-air DTV.

--- CHAS

Click on What's New (http://www.hdtvcolorado.com/) once you get to the web site.

Mt. Morrison was rezoned, platted (subdivided) and in the process of getting its building permits (a site development plan) when the courts ruled that Jeffco did not follow proper procedures when allowing the rezoning. Jeffco is challenging this ruling in court. So for now, no new tower on Morrison until this legal fight is over. (You can visit CARE's web site for the court's ruling)

-WabisabiThanks. I was never quite clear on what ran afoul on Morrison but (for some strange reason) I'm not surprised by your answer.

Click on What's New (http://www.hdtvcolorado.com/) once you get to the web site.Funny that they link to the Denver Post article I mentioned earlier that includes these quotes:

Golden officials said that while they are pleased, the ruling means Lake Cedar is building without a permit.

Assistant County Attorney Eric Butler said Lake Cedar will need grading, building and telecommunications permits.

All of the Denver stations (not just the LCG members) should start adding a DTV Transition "Your TV will end in:..............." Countdown Clock to every station ID break.

Get the public asking about what's going on. Keep the bureaucrats on the firing line of public opinion.

All of the Denver stations (not just the LCG members) should start adding a DTV Transition "Your TV will end in:..............." Countdown Clock to every station ID break.

Get the public asking about what's going on. Keep the bureaucrats on the firing line of public opinion.
They will never do that here. The stations have been more than happy to 'drag their feet' and play along with the legal delays here for years. If they started advertising, they might actually be expected to produce a digital signal from Lookout. I still am not convinced they are in any hurry to do so. If there are any other 'permit' issues that come up, IMO, they will be happy to accommodate any delays into their schedule. The FCC has given them a free ride up until now, I suspect they can use the history here as well as any other permit delays to buy some more time. I am definitely one of those in the "I'll believe it when I can receive it" camp. That's my opinion, YMMV.

Unless Congress passes a new DTV bill, the punch on their free ride ticket expires in 2009.

If you are following the antics in Washington, passing a new law is not out of the question! In either case, you won't see any of the stations who will be returning to their current channel assignments change over until they absolutely need to. The general public won't be ready even then and they (not us) couldn't care less about DTV.

If I were in charge stations that miss the deadline would relinquish their licenses and risk loosing them forever if someone else could provide the required coverage. Since I'm not in charge, that's only my opinion. :D

--- CHAS

I found it interesting on the CARE website that they noted that Judge Jackson "did not rule on the constitutional issue".

It is my understanding that only federal courts can rule on federal constitutional issues; Jefferson County courts cannot consider arguments outside their jurisdiction. So of course Judge Jackson "did not rule" on this issue.

I've said for a couple of years now that the tower issue will ultimately be settled in Federal Court. I think that will still be the case some time between now and the deadline. Whether it is with sCARE's constitutional challenge and/or JeffCo's challenge as to how much control they have of the project, some Federal judge will eventually have to rule on just what SB4092 means.

Just my 2 cents.

I've said for a couple of years now that the tower issue will ultimately be settled in Federal Court. I think that will still be the case some time between now and the deadline. Whether it is with sCARE's constitutional challenge and/or JeffCo's challenge as to how much control they have of the project, some Federal judge will eventually have to rule on just what SB4092 means.

Just my 2 cents.While I partially agree ...

here's your 1 cent change.

I found it interesting on the CARE website that they noted that Judge Jackson "did not rule on the constitutional issue"
Those "constitutional issues", such as they are, are moot until and unless LCG wants to go outside the bounds of their original application which the Jeffco BOCC approved and JJ affirmed in his ruling last week.

I don't think you're going to see anything from LCG unless JeffCO decides they want to mess around with them - then it will be in federal court so fast the BoCC won't know what hit them.

BOCC has already stated (I was at the public meeting) that their lawyers interpetation is that the Fed Law overrides their power and they have no control.

Those "constitutional issues", such as they are, are moot until and unless LCG wants to go outside the bounds of their original application which the Jeffco BOCC approved and JJ affirmed in his ruling last week.

Exactly. However, SB4092 provided a direct impact on the whole situation resulting in the dismissal of the injunction and the lawsuit.

My prediction is that LCGII will build the tower according to the approved app to get it up without legal interference. I do believe they will take the old towers down. However, IMO, they will then forego the RF testing due to "budget" concerns once the analog cutoff happens. LCG would pretty much be bullet proof at that time. What could a judge tell them, resume RF testing? That's about it.

Don

Thanks Jetlag ... that is helpful! I will be talking w/ the owner tonight and now have ideas for options.

Love the PIC ... are there really that many dishes that don't have a LNB attached?

# Matt
Sorry for the delay in answering, I have been extremely busy lately and finally have time to get caught up on replies. I took that photo while I was installing everything and had not gotten to the LNBs yet. The last time I was up there I counted 11 dishes and 1 OTA antenna ;) on the roof.

Hey Ernie - is it safe to ask LCG when the celebration BBQ will be yet?
Lets just be certain to have it prior to them switching on the new transmitter, I don't want to get nuked by all that radiation. :D

One can only guess how many hoops LCG will need to jump through to get those permits, and how many times the applications for those permits will "get lost."
Having dealt with the Denver Building Dept on many occaisions I can tell you that anything of the sort would be very transparent. If they were to "lose" the application or take their time in processing it this would be readily apparent to all partes because of the logging and tracking systems they use. I think the permit office would open itself up to possible litigation if they were to do so.

The broadcasters need to start construction now to meet the 2009 deadline with built in lead time for schedule slippage. They will face Government sanctions if they are not ready so they will go on the air from Lookout even if that requires continuing use of the end of life towers. Who, with the exception of sCare with their convoluted logic, would want that?
I think LCG will successfully 'prove' to the FCC that the delay caused by JJ and the BOCC prevented them from complying with the mandatory cutoff date and avoid any penalties or fines (IMOHO). I don't think they will be ready for a complete switch over by then.

Is 7 back yet?

Is 7 back yet?

Nope, not yet. I saw a blip of their signal on my monitors at about 5:45pm last night, but nothing since then.

Click on Action Alerts (http://www.c-a-r-e.org/alerts.htm#Commissioners)

Leonard,

We should all go and Let the state reps know how greatful we are for what they did for us!!!
Public Meeting:
Thursday, May 10, 2007 from 3:00-5:30 PM in the U.S. Capitol, Room HC-5.

I called KMGH Chn 7 to ask about their DTV outage. The receptionist stated they didn't have any idea as of yet to when service would be restored.

I mentioned it might be a decent idea if they updated their website when their systems go down and when they can update their status. At present their website is useless on station issues. She stated she would pass the idea along.

Leonard,

We should all go and Let the state reps know how greatful we are for what they did for us!!!
Public Meeting:
Thursday, May 10, 2007 from 3:00-5:30 PM in the U.S. Capitol, Room HC-5.
If I'm in Washington that day I'll be sure and stop by. :D

While this meeting is new, a lot on that "action" page must be pretty old, though.. For example, the letter writing campaign has Dave Auburn rather than Kathy Hartman as the Commissioner for District 3.

Click on Action Alerts (http://www.c-a-r-e.org/alerts.htm#Commissioners)

Doesn't sCARE know when they've been beaten ? NIMBYism at its worst....

On sCare's new offensive:

It seems to me I've heard this song before.

--- CHAS

7 is back.

Just read the "Alerts" 1000mW is 1 Watt..

P.S. Maximum power on a UHF DTV station is 1 MW or 1000 kW.

Someone needs to proof read... there are several errors.

I mentioned it might be a decent idea if they updated their website when their systems go down and when they can update their status. At present their website is useless on station issues. She stated she would pass the idea along.

Well, if KMGH handles this situation like KUSA/KTVD, I wouldn't look for much info on their website any time soon if this happens again. KUSA's web site had an alert on it today (may still be there) that KTVD was down for viewers that receive the station OTA or via E* and D*. I checked the digital broadcast and it was up and running, so I emailed KUSA and asked them why they didn't note that the outage didn't affect the digital transmission. The response I received was:

As you know, the number of viewers who receive digital over-the-air signals is still very small, perhaps too small to confuse the overhwhelmingly large number of viewers who receive the signal via over the air analog, cable or satellite. As the number of over-the-air digital viewers increases, so will the amount of information directed at them.

No wonder most of the public has little knowledge of digital TV. The stations don't even care.

And with this tidbit, I celebrate my 500th post!

Doesn't sCARE know when they've been beaten ? NIMBYism at its worst....

What I have to ask is do they own a dictionary? I'm pretty sure that going from 3 towers to 1 is not proliferation.

Has anyone had problems with KCNCDT? A few days ago the signal went very week & no matter where I swing the ant. I can't get a good signal anymore. All the other down town stations come in very well persentage wise.

KCNC-DT isn't down appreciably for me in Louisville; in fact they're still stronger than KDVR-DT.

On the other hand, KWHD-DT is off the air.

What I have to ask is do they own a dictionary? I'm pretty sure that going from 3 towers to 1 is not proliferation.
I think the "sCare"-y claim now is that with Public Law No. 109-266 on the books, any would-be broadcaster can easily persuade the FCC to give them a license and construction permit to build their Digital Television broadcast facilities on Lookout Mountain.

I honestly wouldn't expect a major migration to Lookout. IMHO the most likely candidate to reconsider would be KRMA-DT, which actually makes sense to me since their analog broadcast comes from there. KDVR-DT and KWGN-DT are already on Lookout on other properties, and KWGN-DT may utilize 109-266 to further fight their cause to get DTV on the large tower.

I honestly wouldn't expect a major migration to Lookout.And if there were such a migration that would be a terrible thing - why?

Well, with all the transmitters in one place I guess it would hurt the people whose jobs depend on manufacturing or installing antenna rotators for homeowners. And it could reduce demand for cable, another large local industry.

And if there were such a migration that would be a terrible thing - why?
(s)Care's premise is that non-ionizing EMF radiation is bad. They lost the tower war with LCG, but part of the approved plan included promises for actions to measure and possibly mitigate radiation problems there. But they have to come up with ways to continue to scare people into making further contributions to the Carney Law Firm (et. al.). So now they are trying to fight 109-266 on the basis of not allowing additional broadcasters up there. I don't know if it is "grasping at straws", claiming a consolation prize, or what. Maybe they just need to raise money now to make up for money previously spent but not previosly raised.

I personally just think such a migration to Lookout Mountain is not very likely, with the one exception being possibly KRMA-DT being up there in some form. This is largely due to inertia; why would stations want to move if they didn't have to? From a consumer perspective it would be better if all the stations broadcast from the same geographic area. But, IMHO, real consumer concerns have largely been ignored by both sides of this whole thing anyway.

Story in the Golden Transcript today...

http://goldentranscript.com/1editorialbody.lasso?-token.folder=2007-04-26&-token.story=191776.112112&-token.subpub=

Let's see how things tower related stand:

a) The land has been rezoned to allow the LCG consolidated tower
b) LCG and the county commissioners have a 'working' agreement
c) His Honor has lifted the injunction prohibiting tower work
d) The LCG broadcasters have FCC permits
e) There's a federal law that grants LCG broad authority to proceed
f) The county doesn't plan to challenge the federal law
g) sCare says there are unresolved issues!

So let sCare make a lot of noise and waste all their money paying that lady attorney to argue about the legality of additional future towers. It's a tempest in a teapot .. all theater now.

--- CHAS

So let sCare make a lot of noise and waste all their money paying that lady attorney to argue about the legality of additional future towers. It's a tempest in a teapot .. all theater now.
That "lady attorney" pretty much is (s)Care as far as calling the shots regarding legal action.

I noticed that her "law office" is actually in the residential neighborhood on Lookout Mountain, which is presumably her house. I wonder if it is properly zoned for that :eek:. LOL

What I have to ask is do they own a dictionary? I'm pretty sure that going from 3 towers to 1 is not proliferation.From the SCARe web page:"Lake Cedar Group has launched an all out media war against us that misrepresents the facts over the last several months. Lake Cedar Group TV attack ads and flyers misrepresent almost every fact and portray the people opposing the tower as “a small group”. We are not a small group and we know the real facts"Compared to the entire Metro area Front Range they ARE a small group and they are the ones who constantly misrepresent the facts. They are devoid of all ethics and raise money buy scaring their neighbors into believing their crapola which has little or no basis in factual reality. They are nothing more than domestic terrorists.

I can think of only one way they can shut down LCG...

1. Buy all the TV/FM stations and other users of the existing towers.
2. Turn off the transmitters and return the licenses
3. take down the towers.


Of course they will lose both cable and DBS as without the transmitters there is no must carry or retransmission consent.

And no local programming Denver area.

But at least if your on satellite you would be cleared for distant networks..

Once they buy all the stations and shut them down, they'll need a whole lot more towers all over Colorado to put the Air Raid Sirens on top of.

EAS, via local TV and radio, is far less of an eyesore ;) .

I found this article on the web and thought I would post it. It is just too 'interesting' to pass up. "Since diagnosing herself as 'electrically sensitive' in May 2005, she has been marooned at home." There is apparently NO proof that this woman is actually Deb Carney or is in any way related to Deb Carney, yet I can't help but wonder?????? There is also no evidence available that she has ever lived on Lookout Mountain either, but perhaps England is close enough to Lookout Mountain to be her problem???? My guess is that if (S)CARE has seen this article they will soon attempt to move her on to Lookout Mountain in order to strengthen the case for their lost cause. I suppose that (S)CARE would argue that until it is proven beyond doubt that Lookout Mountain is NOT the cause of her problem, all RF towers on Lookout should be shut down. Knowing Deb, they may make that argument about her case even while she lives in England.

The woman who needs a veil of protection from modern life (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/femail/article.html?in_article_id=450995&in_page_id=1879)

John,
I posted this same story about 2 months ago - what a crock of shite.

John,
I posted this same story about 2 months ago - what a crock of shite.
Sorry, I must have missed it, the headline said updated April 27, this must have been an updated version. Definitely a crock.....

Hi all,
I'm only 26 years old, which basically means I've never had to deal with a TV antenna before. We had one when I was a kid, but too young to know what it was all about. We also lived in a much more dense community. That being said, I've got a house out at about 136th Ave. and I-25 in Westminster, and am looking to get an outdoor antenna just as soon as they complete the new tower on Lookout.

I've been lurking on this forum, checking it about once every month or so, and it's clear to me you folks know what you're talking about. If you could suggest an antenna that would fit the bill for HDTV where I'm located, I'd really appreciate it. Cheers

-Steve

Hi all,
I'm only 26 years old, which basically means I've never had to deal with a TV antenna before. We had one when I was a kid, but too young to know what it was all about. We also lived in a much more dense community. That being said, I've got a house out at about 136th Ave. and I-25 in Westminster, and am looking to get an outdoor antenna just as soon as they complete the new tower on Lookout.

I've been lurking on this forum, checking it about once every month or so, and it's clear to me you folks know what you're talking about. If you could suggest an antenna that would fit the bill for HDTV where I'm located, I'd really appreciate it. Cheers

-Steve
If you are waiting for the new tower, you may find you only need an indoor antenna. Can't really say until it is up and running.

Steve,

Why do you say you're waiting? There's plenty of great over-the-air HD available right now. 4, 6, 7, 9, 20 are up right now at Low power from Republic Plaza downtown and 2 & 31 are about 1/2 power from Lookout Mt. From your location, you should be able to get them all pretty easy. Here's two good antennas to consider:

Channel Master 3021 (http://www.starkelectronic.com/cmuhf.htm)

Antennas Direct DB4 (http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=AD-DB4)

These are available by web order. Not sure if anybody's found them locally. (There has been talk of Ace Hardware possibly having them or can order them)

I think the "sCare"-y claim now is that with Public Law No. 109-266 on the books, any would-be broadcaster can easily persuade the FCC to give them a license and construction permit to build their Digital Television broadcast facilities on Lookout Mountain.

I honestly wouldn't expect a major migration to Lookout. IMHO the most likely candidate to reconsider would be KRMA-DT, which actually makes sense to me since their analog broadcast comes from there. KDVR-DT and KWGN-DT are already on Lookout on other properties, and KWGN-DT may utilize 109-266 to further fight their cause to get DTV on the large tower.

So, do DTV towers stop ducks from migrating to the area (That would seem more like a sCARE argument than a LCG argument)? Perhaps people wouldn't need licenses to hunt ducks if there are no ducks? Is there a public benefit to repelling ducks from Lookout Mountain?

Otherwise I don't see how Public Law No. 109-266 would have any relevance here. I can certainly understand why Judge Jackson would rule that Public Law 109-266 was not necessarily relevant when (if?) LCG tried to use it to dismiss the injunction.

An AP article is making its media rounds. It seems like we've seen this article a few months ago. And it's even on the back of section A in today's Post.

I can't believe that I haven't had 5 posts yet, so I can't paste the urls. Search the Denver post site for HDTV, it's the second article. Or it's on the back page of Section A. Sorry.

try these

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/R/RABBIT_EAR_REVIVAL?SITE=JRC&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

http://www.denverpost.com/search/ci_5775488

This thing looks like something a Klingon would put up.

http://hosted.ap.org/photos/C/CD30304281810-small.jpg

This thing looks like something a Klingon would put up.

http://hosted.ap.org/photos/C/CD30304281810-small.jpg

That's probably because it has to be the new design to be compatible with HD TV. Everyone knows you have to replace your 'old style antennas" with an HD compatible version.
:D

I had to laugh, right before getting pretty pissed about this from the article posted above:

The difference in picture quality is a matter of opinion, said Robert Mercer, spokesman for satellite provider DirecTV Inc.

I often wonder how these sales/marketing pukes can tell such blatant lies and still sleep at night. People have been bitching about the DTV "HD LITE" and their MPG4 junk ever since they have been using them. If OTA signals are full bandwidth, there is no problem seeing the difference between that and compressed signals.

Phil

Notice the following, which was left out of the Denver Post version of the article:

"When you're using an antenna to get an HD signal you will be able to receive true broadcast-quality HD," said Megan Pollock, spokeswoman for the group. "Some of the cable and satellite companies may choose to compress the HD signal."

Compression involves removing some data from the digital signal. This is done so that the providers will have enough room to send hundreds of other channels through the same cable line or satellite transmission.

The difference in picture quality “is a matter of opinion”, said Robert Mercer, spokesman for satellite provider DirecTV Inc.

"We believe the DirecTV HD signal is superior to any source, whether it's over-the-air or from your friendly neighborhood cable company," Mercer said.

Others disagree."

I wonder why?

Another newpaper article (http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/tech/article/0,2777,DRMN_23910_5512534,00.html) about HDTV with only a very brief single reference to OTA. It's very sad.

Why is it sad? The number of channels available OTA is not going to increase significantly. It's all the locals, period. Granted, there are problems for a lot of people receiving local channels, but that really wasn't what the article was about, and, for most people, that issue is on its way to being closed. The article wasn't catering to readers of this forum, it was catering to the 25% of people with HD sets who think they're watching HD but actually aren't.

IMO, they gave Comcast a pass by saying that they only didn't carry HDNet, when, from the lists they provided, it was obvious that Comcast was lacking more than just that one channel.

Funny....I just created a spreadsheet for SLC over the weekend.

We have seven HD channels OTA, but only five of them are on Cable, three on DirecTV, and three on DISH Network. Many of the multicast channels are not even available on satellite, with only a few of them on Cable.

We have ten OTA DTV stations, with 24 channels of DTV (including the HDs). We have 11 more stations, some LPTV and some full-power, that will be converting in the next couple of years.

And, the cost breakdowns are pretty ugly, except for OTA....which is still FREE!

Only little-old-ladies buy cars "just to go to church on Sundays", and only videophiles buy new (HDTV) sets "just to watch HDTV" :) . The average viewer watches programming, not line-and-pixel counts, and that is the point that these writers seem to miss.

35+ channels of "Digital Quality" free TV should count for something.

Well obviously my obscure and cryptic attempt at humor went over like a lead balloon. So, just to set the record straight, Judge Jackson mentioned Public Law 109-266 in his order. I don't know if his office was the first to make the mistake, but ever since then everyone else on this list has been using that reference to Public Law 109-266, assuming that that law is the one that was sponsored by the Colorado senators in order to allow the Lake Cedar Group to proceed with building their DTV antenna on Lookout Mountain.

However, Public Law 109-266 is the "Electronic Duck Stamp Act of 2005". Obviously that law is not very relevant to DTV towers on Lookout Mountain. The law that is relevant is Public Law 109-466 (A bill to clarify certain land use in Jefferson County, Colorado).

Public Law 109-266 is the "Electronic Duck Stamp Act of 2005". Obviously that law is not very relevant to DTV towers on Lookout Mountain. The law that is relevant is Public Law 109-466 (A bill to clarify certain land use in Jefferson County, Colorado).

So I guess JJ got it correct ... PL 109-266 is irrevelant to the towers and cannot base a dismissal decision on it.

Looking at the rulling ... on second reading it makes it quite funny: :D :D

Public Law No. 109-266. "Electronic Duck Stamp Act of 2005"

Lake Cedar then filed a motion to dismiss this case and lift the Court’s March 26, 2004 stay order, arguing that Jefferson County’s land use laws and regulations were preempted by the "Electronic Duck Stamp Act of 2005". That motion is now denied for two reasons. First, the "Electronic Duck Stamp Act of 2005" does not sweep as broadly as Lake Cedar claims. The "Electronic Duck Stamp Act of 2005" does not purport to preempt the Board’s zoning authority except on its specific and limited terms. ...

I'm still curious what "specific and limited terms" a Duck Stamp Act has on this whole thing. :D

# Matt

Doing a search on PL 109-466, here is sCARE's filing w/ JJ before his latest ruling:

http://www.c-a-r-e.org/pdfs/CARE%20Final%20response%201-26%20_2_.pdf

IANAL, but ...

I can't believe the rubbish that actually made it on paper. Besides the fact that state courts have no jurisdiction on federal law, I do believe that all the "points" brought up have plenty of case precidence against sCARE's claims. And many have already been ruled on, against sCARE, by JJ (specifically, the entire introduction).

# Matt

Doing a search on PL 109-466, here is sCARE's filing w/ JJ before his latest ruling:

http://www.c-a-r-e.org/pdfs/CARE%20Final%20response%201-26%20_2_.pdf

IANAL, but ...

I can't believe the rubbish that actually made it on paper. Besides the fact that state courts have no jurisdiction on federal law, I do believe that all the "points" brought up have plenty of case precidence against sCARE's claims. And many have already been ruled on, against sCARE, by JJ (specifically, the entire introduction).

# Matt
My favorite was that the broadcast signals violated the Fourth Amendment (protection against forced entry)!!!

Public Law 109-466 unreasonably denies Plaintiffs the right to be secure in their persons and their homes against harmful broadcast radiation without any judicial or administrative review of probable cause ...
So wait, I guess this means that broadcast signals can enter your home if probable cause is shown? What, broadcast signals require a search warrant now? Good luck with that one; I'm surprised JJ was able to read this without spit-taking his morning coffee all over the office.

Lettter to Editor in today's Post. Well intentioned but incorrect.

http://www.denverpost.com/letters

It looks like our friend TotallyPreWired in Woodland Park is finally selling his house.
Some people will take pretty extreme measures in the pursuit of strong OTA signals.


http://www.9news.com/news/article.aspx?storyid=69268

The editorial in the Post today is typical of the public's and media's low comprehension level regarding the transition to digital TV. I wrote the following letter to the editor of the Post. They probably won't print it or write any followup article, but at least I got the matter off of my chest.

The editorial written by Jim Chamberlain titled “Return of rabbit ears on today’s TVs” contained some misleading information which did nothing but contribute to the public’s lack of knowledge about the transition to digital (and HD) TV. Mr. Chamberlain wrote, in relevant part: “While some Denver TV stations broadcast in HD, three of the main ones - Channel 4 (CBS), Channel 7 (ABC) and Channel 9 (NBC) - do not, apparently because of a legal dispute over a new broadcasting antenna in Golden. It sounds as if the legal dispute may be about over, but the new antenna for HD will not be built for months or years.”

The channels Mr. Chamberlain cites as not broadcasting in HD (high definition) have been broadcasting HD programming for years. In fact, Channel 9 (KUSA – NBC) was one of the first stations in the country to broadcast local newscasts in HD and I believe was the first station to have an HD camera in its traffic helicopter. The legal dispute is over and the new antenna (tower), which is currently under construction and planned to be completed sometime in mid-2008, will merely serve to increase signal coverage via full power transmitters, not enable HD broadcasts. That increased signal coverage will allow most viewers in the metro area to use rabbit ears for reception, a situation that does not exist today due to the temporary, low power transmitters that these stations currently operate atop Dominion Plaza in downtown Denver. Whether viewers are using rabbit ears currently or have larger antennas in their attics or outside, the fact remains that HD broadcasting is available to Denver area viewers.

The incorrect information Mr. Chamberlain provided should have either been edited from or footnoted by the Denver Post. As a result, many readers, including those that recently purchased a TV capable of displaying HD programming, may now believe that most of the major networks’ HD programming is unavailable in Denver unless one subscribes to cable or satellite services.

Nice job Mike.
Dominion Plaza, I didn't know they changed the name from Republic - thanks for that.
Did anybody see the full-page ad on the back page of the RMN today? It was for Comcast. They said:
"Comcast wins the HD picture challenge. Satellite customers agree, HD looks better with Comcast."I find that hard to believe. All reports I've seen/heard is OTA is best, Dish second, Directv third and Comcast last. Sure, no mention of OTA, but Cable over Sat - not likely!

They don't say how they conducted the challenge. Hmmmm?

...

Channel Master 3021
Antennas Direct DB4
...


Longtime lurker, first time poster in this thread.

Would these work from southwest Longmont (Airport & Pike Rd). I would either mount it in the attic or my garage. Maybe a pre-amp? I currently have a Winegard GS-2200 - Amplified on the roof. Anything bigger will have to be mounted in the attic or garage.

Republic Plaza (RP) and Lookout are only 3-4 degrees apart from my location. I am currently getting signals from Lookout (digital and analog) with the Winegard, but digital 4, 7, and 9 is a no go. I don't know anything from RP would even be possible from the attic or garage, but it would be fun to just try.

Thanks for your inputs.

Nice job Mike.
Dominion Plaza, I didn't know they changed the name from Republic - thanks for that.
Did anybody see the full-page ad on the back page of the RMN today? It was for Comcast. They said: "Comcast wins the HD picture challenge. Satellite customers agree, HD looks better with Comcast."
I find that hard to believe. All reports I've seen/heard is OTA is best, Dish second, Directv third and Comcast last. Sure, no mention of OTA, but Cable over Sat - not likely!

They don't say how they conducted the challenge. Hmmmm?
From what I understand Comcast delivers the full bit rate of the signal from the source for all HD channels. It is well discussed in other forums that DirecTV does not, something about HDlite. I don't know about DISH but was under the impression that for the national networks they do full bit-rate for some and not for others (largely the VOOM channels), and I have no idea what they do for their HD LIL.

As for OTA, it is no doubtedly the best because it is not processed several times converting it between different transmission standards. But I'm pretty sure any comparison was done between D*, E*, and Comcast, and OTA was not on the menu.

My take on the order of the list would be OTA, Comcast, DISH, and DirecTV. At the least, Comcast would be tied with DISH but certainly ahead of DirecTV; there is no HDLite on Comcast.

The low power transmitters are on the Republic Plaza building, Dominion Plaza is a different building.

The low power transmitters are on the Republic Plaza building, Dominion Plaza is a different building.

Yeah, I knew that. I used to work in Dominion Plaza - one track mind I guess. The Post probably won't notice the mistake anyway!

mifronte,

Maybe one of the other guys who lives out your way can chime in, but I probably wouldn't recomment those two antennas. You'll most likely need bigger, like a CM3023. Better long range reception. And I bet you'll also probably have to go roof mount. Any reason why you said you have to go attic or garage? Don't let HOA rules get in your way, law is on your side. They cannot stop you at all. WAF is different and jewelery works there. ;)

Longtime lurker, first time poster in this thread.

Would these work from southwest Longmont (Airport & Pike Rd). I would either mount it in the attic or my garage. Maybe a pre-amp? I currently have a Winegard GS-2200 - Amplified on the roof. Anything bigger will have to be mounted in the attic or garage.

Republic Plaza (RP) and Lookout are only 3-4 degrees apart from my location. I am currently getting signals from Lookout (digital and analog) with the Winegard, but digital 4, 7, and 9 is a no go. I don't know anything from RP would even be possible from the attic or garage, but it would be fun to just try.

Thanks for your inputs.From my personal experience (although on the completely opposite end of the metro area from you), you would be hard-pressed to do better than the CM4228 (http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=ANC4228) for an antenna that will pull in signal from fringe distances.

Nice job Mike.
Dominion Plaza, I didn't know they changed the name from Republic - thanks for that.
Did anybody see the full-page ad on the back page of the RMN today? It was for Comcast. They said:
I find that hard to believe. All reports I've seen/heard is OTA is best, Dish second, Directv third and Comcast last. Sure, no mention of OTA, but Cable over Sat - not likely!

They don't say how they conducted the challenge. Hmmmm?

Hmm I would like to know where you heard Comcast was last? Have you looked at posts in the HDTV programming forum? The overwhelming sentiment is that directv is by far the worst. Dish has some good HD channels some not as good. But comcast for the most part provides good bandwidth and resolution on all their HD channels.

Also if you read the post about this report in the HDTV programming topic they talk about how they conducted the test. It was done by a 3rd party and the testers didn't know what signal they were watching. It was also done here in Denver.

I heard that Comcast was recompressing their signals. Some of the guys on this thread who have both Cable & Sat have said as much. Maybe they've changed that now. Do you have a link to the test, I'd like to read it.

I found the link.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=841935

An interesting quote was regarding if the Comcast feed was representative of all markets.
A DirecTV spokesman questioned the validity of the results, noting there are several ways picture quality could be skewed: the equipment used, instructions given to subjects, the content chosen and whether the Comcast signal at the test location was representative of the cable operator's markets as whole.I also as skeptical as they never mention where the test was conducted. Was it done at a Comcast facility with a direct feed or was it done at a random hotel with an average feed?

If you go to www.comcast.com/hdchallenge and give them your name and email, they PROMISE not to mkt to you without your 'permission', they have a 2 page pdf report. Oddly enough the test was performed in Denver by Frank Magid Assoc, maybe you know them. I'd post it here but would probably be sued by Comcast (Deb is available now ?)

If you go to www.comcast.com/hdchallenge and give them your name and email, they PROMISE not to mkt to you without your 'permission', they have a 2 page pdf report. Oddly enough the test was performed in Denver by Frank Magid Assoc, maybe you know them. I'd post it here but would probably be sued by Comcast (Deb is available now ?)

If the test was commissioned by Comcast the results have zero credibility. DirecTV or Dish could prove they have superior pictures by instructing a hired tester to prove that.

It's been said that statistics do not lie. It's the statisticians that do the lying.

As an aside, my brother has Comcast in Connecticut. I think his HD does indeed look better then HD (lite) I have seen from DirecTV where macroblocks that seem to jump around are clearly visible. But you really need to know what to look for to make a critical judgment.

Oxford CT is a long way from Denver.

--- CHAS

Here's the graphs, they've been posted already. What they don't give is all the details. No mention of equipment used. What if they used an older Dish receiver vs. a state-of-the-art Comcast box? And where was test was conducted. Was it at Comcast Digital center with a direct feed etc. All that would effect the PQ.

I agree, if Dish wanted to pay for their own testing, they could skew the results with the above items.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v637/keenanj/SP32-20070501-130652.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v637/keenanj/SP32-20070501-130828.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v637/keenanj/SP32-20070501-130849.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v637/keenanj/SP32-20070501-130900.jpg

Thanks for the antenna recommendation. Look like I will need something big. My wife is the daughter of an architect and no amount of bribing will work because like she says "Ugly is ugly!".

Anyway, the HD channels (Fox & CW) from Lookout using the small Winegard GS-2200 looks so much better than my upscaling DVD player over HDMI!

Is that new tower done yet :rolleyes:

Thanks for the antenna recommendation. Look like I will need something big. My wife is the daughter of an architect and no amount of bribing will work because like she says "Ugly is ugly!".

Anyway, the HD channels (Fox & CW) from Lookout using the small Winegard GS-2200 looks so much better than my upscaling DVD player over HDMI!

Is that new tower done yet :rolleyes:
You said earlier that you could mount an antenna in your attic. Is that possible? The WAF would have to be pretty good for something hidden in the attic. As long as you have a wood/shingle roof it should attenuate things too much. Once the new tower if up you could point it back to Lookout and be set forever.

My son just bought a townhouse in Castle Rock and moved in yesterday. What kind of OTA reception will he be able to get? Are the Springs stations reachable if the low power Denver stations aren't? Or should he just give up for now and get the HD locals when E* does his install next week?

It depends on where you are in Castle Rock. I am close to the highest point in Castle Pines North and can receive the Republic Plaza stations with limited success with a roof mounted antenna. FOX and CW2 from Lookout usually come in pretty good with the antenna pointed at RP. If I turn the antenna towards the south, I can receive the NBC, CBS channels from Colorado Springs very well. I'm not sure about FOX and ABC from the Springs because I haven't tried it since last summer. Your son will surely need an outdoor antenna and should be able to find some OTA channels from one direction or the other.

Thanks for the antenna recommendation. Look like I will need something big. My wife is the daughter of an architect and no amount of bribing will work because like she says "Ugly is ugly!".

Agreed, but how much time do you spend outside looking at your roof?

Agreed, but how much time do you spend outside looking at your roof?A lot of time if you're Jetlag. ;)

Longtime lurker, first time poster in this thread.

Would these work from southwest Longmont (Airport & Pike Rd). I would either mount it in the attic or my garage. Maybe a pre-amp? I currently have a Winegard GS-2200 - Amplified on the roof. Anything bigger will have to be mounted in the attic or garage.

Republic Plaza (RP) and Lookout are only 3-4 degrees apart from my location. I am currently getting signals from Lookout (digital and analog) with the Winegard, but digital 4, 7, and 9 is a no go. I don't know anything from RP would even be possible from the attic or garage, but it would be fun to just try.

Thanks for your inputs.

I have first hand experience from that area (Just moved out to another place in Longmont). I lived West on Pike from Airport, in the group of houses directly South of Pike. I tried everything and got nothing from RP. (there is more than 3-4 degrees seperation LOM and RP from what I recall, LOM is about 180 degrees and RP is in the upper 160's degrees) That is not the problem. The problem is the Niwot Hill blocking RP. We are too close to it to see over it. It is the hill between Lookout Rd and CO52 as you head South out of Niwot. It travels ESE from there. The further East on Pike or North on Airport, the better chance you'll have.

I had the CM 4228 that you can see from Pike thru the small open space just West of Airport.

Good Luck!

# Matt

It looks like our friend TotallyPreWired in Woodland Park is finally selling his house.
Some people will take pretty extreme measures in the pursuit of strong OTA signals.
Actually, you don't know how close you are to being correct! :p

I've been offline while I moved into a townhome in WP. The big 'D' caused this, and my house will be on the market in a matter of days. So, if anybody is looking to escape Denver PM me!

My best guesss is that I'm down to about 8,500', and from this location the Denver high power stations are probably a pipe dream. I should have a shot at the C/S stations, but I haven't got a decent antenna with me.

Also, if anybody is looking for a mid level Java GUI developer please PM me!
....jc

Thanks Matt for the feedback.

I was afraid that ridge would be a problem. It is the only thing that I can see that would block an imaginary direct line of site downtown. I was able to pull in NBC once when I was mounting the antenna. I had placed it down to mount the pole (it is the same type used for satellite dishes). Unfortunately the location of the pole (highest point on the roof) was a couple of feet from where I had set the antenna down. Needless to say, that couple of feet now prevents me from receiving NBC from Republic Plaza (RP) :mad:

I decided not to move the mounting position because then I would had to figure out how to patch the holes where the mounting screws were located to ensure a water tight seal. Plus it was in December and I was freezing and just wanted to get inside.

Zimdba
******************
My wife and I walk everyday and she is always looking up at the sky because she just loves the cloud formations and colors. So we look at the roof almost everyday. My wife to admire the cloud formations and colors, me to see if the latest wind had blown any shingles off and to admire my handy crooked run of the antenna cable on the roof.

Thanks for the feedback, Iwanthd. My son lives off of South St about halfway up a hill on the east side of downtown Castle Rock, so he's probably a little lower and farther south than you. But it's good to know he has a chance for OTA. He has balconies that face both north and south, so getting an antenna outside is no problem, although getting it high enough might be.

Longtime lurker, first time poster in this thread.

Would these work from southwest Longmont (Airport & Pike Rd). I would either mount it in the attic or my garage. Maybe a pre-amp? I currently have a Winegard GS-2200 - Amplified on the roof. Anything bigger will have to be mounted in the attic or garage.

Republic Plaza (RP) and Lookout are only 3-4 degrees apart from my location. I am currently getting signals from Lookout (digital and analog) with the Winegard, but digital 4, 7, and 9 is a no go. I don't know anything from RP would even be possible from the attic or garage, but it would be fun to just try.

Thanks for your inputs.

I am just north of you at Airport & Clover Basin. I would highly recommend a Channel Master 4228 antenna and also a Channel Master 7777 preamp pointed directly at Republic Plaza. I have tried several antenna configurations without success before using the CM 4228. The CM 4228 provided the highest signal on my DirecTV HD Tivo, but not enough to get a picture. Adding the CM 7777 preamp made all the difference! Now 4, 6, 7, 9, and 20 are solid. Also, 2 and 31 on Lookout are strong enough even though I'm pointed at Republic Plaza. I had tried cheaper preamps before, but they were all useless. This 4228 and 7777 combo works so well, the antenna only needs to be 15 feet off the ground. I had resisted buying this setup for over a year due to cost and not knowing whether it would work. Then I stumbled on them at a garage sale for only $10 and grabbed them immediately. (BTW, Republic Plaza is at 163 degrees and Lookout is at 189 degrees at my location.) Send me a back channel message if you want to talk further.

Jack

This thing looks like something a Klingon would put up.

http://hosted.ap.org/photos/C/CD30304281810-small.jpg

Woa Ho, that is an AntennasDirect 91XG, one of which I installed in my attic a couple of years ago in a final attempt to receive KMGH before they moved to RP. It actually is a great antenna, which borrowed its design concept from some popular European antennas.

Scott Regener, a frequent poster to the AVS antennas forum, wrote a nice, personal, review (http://www.geocities.com/Figbert/antennasdirect91xg.html) of the 91XG. In the past year or so, it was added to the charts at HDTV Primer (http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html) .

Another newpaper article (http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/tech/article/0,2777,DRMN_23910_5512534,00.html) about HDTV with only a very brief single reference to OTA. It's very sad.

Joyzelle Davis has consistently been a shill for the DBS providers and Comcast. I've emailed her in the past regarding her lack of consumer perspective in her articles. Oh well, she probably gets a lot of free lunches.

Thanks for the feedback, Iwanthd. My son lives off of South St about halfway up a hill on the east side of downtown Castle Rock, so he's probably a little lower and farther south than you. But it's good to know he has a chance for OTA. He has balconies that face both north and south, so getting an antenna outside is no problem, although getting it high enough might be.

I think I would try for Colorado Springs from that location.

I am just north of you at Airport & Clover Basin. I would highly recommend a Channel Master 4228 antenna and also a Channel Master 7777 preamp pointed directly at Republic Plaza. I have tried several antenna configurations without success before using the CM 4228. The CM 4228 provided the highest signal on my DirecTV HD Tivo, but not enough to get a picture. Adding the CM 7777 preamp made all the difference! Now 4, 6, 7, 9, and 20 are solid. Also, 2 and 31 on Lookout are strong enough even though I'm pointed at Republic Plaza. I had tried cheaper preamps before, but they were all useless. This 4228 and 7777 combo works so well, the antenna only needs to be 15 feet off the ground. I had resisted buying this setup for over a year due to cost and not knowing whether it would work. Then I stumbled on them at a garage sale for only $10 and grabbed them immediately. (BTW, Republic Plaza is at 163 degrees and Lookout is at 189 degrees at my location.) Send me a back channel message if you want to talk further.

Jack

So you are the one (two story next to Clover Basin) that helped me convince the boss (wife) to get that antenna. Thanks! (always intended to knock on the door and say hello).

I also could have had troubles w/ the 2 story home across the small openspace and above me sitting at 170 degrees that could have blocked my RP attempts. According to my compass, I had clear view at 163 between the houses. I never tried the pre-amp method.

Now to plan out the attempt this fall in Erie.

# Matt

From what I understand Comcast delivers the full bit rate of the signal from the source for all HD channels. It is well discussed in other forums that DirecTV does not, something about HDlite. I don't know about DISH but was under the impression that for the national networks they do full bit-rate for some and not for others (largely the VOOM channels), and I have no idea what they do for their HD LIL.

As for OTA, it is no doubtedly the best because it is not processed several times converting it between different transmission standards. But I'm pretty sure any comparison was done between D*, E*, and Comcast, and OTA was not on the menu.

My take on the order of the list would be OTA, Comcast, DISH, and DirecTV. At the least, Comcast would be tied with DISH but certainly ahead of DirecTV; there is no HDLite on Comcast.

I've had Dish HD since 12/2003 and am still using the same Dish receiver. When I got Dish HD I was convinced that the "Gold Standard" for HD was ESPN-HD on Dish as represented by live NFL games from indoor stadiums (e.g., Indy's dome).

Well over the past 3 years Dish has degraded the quality of their HD. I know they now have more HD channels per transponder, which accounts for the breakups, pixelization, freezes, etc. that now occur. But, I think there was even more done to degrad the signal. Watching an indoor NFL game live last fall on ESPN-HD was no longer the "Gold Standard". OTA NFL games on any network were superior in PQ to ESPN-HD.

I don't know how good Comcast or DirectTV HD PQ are, but OTA HD is definitely superior to the current Dish HD. I guess I'd be willing to give Comcast a look when Dish finally ends their MPEG2 HD transmissions. The new Dish HD package would cost me as much as would a Comcast HD package and Comcast includes all the HD channels I care about except HDNet Movies. Most of the new HD channels on Dish are just, IMHO, just garbage.

Posted by Iwanthd:
I think I would try for Colorado Springs from that location.

I played with a 4 bay antenna in Castle Rock today. I picked up digital channels 2, 12, 14, and 31. Not a sniff of the other Denver locals and nothing from the Springs.

Posted by CEBII:
Well over the past 3 years Dish has degraded the quality of their HD. I know they now have more HD channels per transponder, which accounts for the breakups, pixelization, freezes, etc. that now occur.

I was in Best Buy yesterday and I stopped by the TV's (as I always seem to do). They were running a Direct TV feed split a gazillion times, I presume. Anyway, at the time they were showing highlights from some college football game. While some of the TV's displayed pretty good PQ, others pixelated and froze. I don't know it that was due to the particular TV's or bad splits of the signal. I've had Dish Network for probably 7-8 years. I'm sure they've done some signal compressing, etc., over that time, but I wouldn't trade them for the Direct TV I saw yesterday. Also, I rarely get pixelation on HD Dish feeds, even in bad weather, so maybe some of that could be fixed by tweaking the aiming of the dish. Anyway, my 2 cents.

...........................I was in Best Buy yesterday and I stopped by the TV's (as I always seem to do). They were running a Direct TV feed split a gazillion times, I presume. Anyway, at the time they were showing highlights from some college football game. While some of the TV's displayed pretty good PQ, others pixelated and froze. I don't know it that was due to the particular TV's or bad splits of the signal. I've had Dish Network for probably 7-8 years. I'm sure they've done some signal compressing, etc., over that time, but I wouldn't trade them for the Direct TV I saw yesterday. Also, I rarely get pixelation on HD Dish feeds, even in bad weather, so maybe some of that could be fixed by tweaking the aiming of the dish. Anyway, my 2 cents.
Not to say there are not issues with D* HD quality, but that sounds more like a BB signal distribution issue than it does a D* problem since some of the TV's apparently were working 'fine'.

Not to say there are not issues with D* HD quality, but that sounds more like a BB signal distribution issue than it does a D* problem since some of the TV's apparently were working 'fine'.
Which seems so counterproductive to me as to be almost non-sensical.

If I were trying to sell as many new HDTVs as possible the first thing I would do would be to invest in an HD distribution system that would allow the displays to perform at their maximum. Even just playing a loop from a HDD to the display rack containing the more expensive DTVs would most likely boost sales just simply due to the wow factor. Seeing a pristine 720P or 1080i (I'm not getting my hopes up that any big box store would be smart enough to be running 1080P) would win over shoppers far more easily than a young salesperson trying to describe how good it actually looks when displaying a quality HD source.

They already have PS3s (BD)and XBOX360s (HD-DVD) players in the store, why not just use one of those and a HDMI DA like the 1:10 HD-D110? Seeing is believing and I think plenty of husbands would more easily win over the WAF if she could see a 1080 loop of Desperate Housewives in the store. MOHO of course but seems easily doable and logical to me.

Which seems so counterproductive to me as to be almost non-sensical.

What I didn't mention in my previous post was that there were two HD TV's that were displaying that D* feed in analog mode. I just wonder if customers other than me noticed. Apparently, the sales staff didn't.

Another thing that would help, is showing all the OTA stations/channels in Digital, and letting people know that their stations are all converting over.

So you are the one (two story next to Clover Basin) that helped me convince the boss (wife) to get that antenna. Thanks! (always intended to knock on the door and say hello).

I also could have had troubles w/ the 2 story home across the small openspace and above me sitting at 170 degrees that could have blocked my RP attempts. According to my compass, I had clear view at 163 between the houses. I never tried the pre-amp method.

Now to plan out the attempt this fall in Erie.

# Matt

The 2 story on Clover Basin just W of Airport has a roof mount of the same antenna, but it is much higher than mine. I am in a ranch a little N or Clover Basin. The antenna is on a pole on the side of the house, with the antenna a little higher than the gutters (about 15 ft above ground). I figured the Niwot ridge would prevent me from getting RP stations. However, the preamp did the trick for me. I think it was more important than the antenna itself, although I prefer that small shape to the traditional yagi, especially when trying to make it as inconspicuous as possible!

The 2 story on Clover Basin just W of Airport has a roof mount of the same antenna, but it is much higher than mine. I am in a ranch a little N or Clover Basin. The antenna is on a pole on the side of the house, with the antenna a little higher than the gutters (about 15 ft above ground). I figured the Niwot ridge would prevent me from getting RP stations. However, the preamp did the trick for me. I think it was more important than the antenna itself, although I prefer that small shape to the traditional yagi, especially when trying to make it as inconspicuous as possible!
Is your preamp on the antenna or indoors at the receiver?

Posted by Iwanthd:

Posted by CEBII:


I was in Best Buy yesterday and I stopped by the TV's (as I always seem to do). They were running a Direct TV feed split a gazillion times, I presume. Anyway, at the time they were showing highlights from some college football game. While some of the TV's displayed pretty good PQ, others pixelated and froze. I don't know it that was due to the particular TV's or bad splits of the signal. I've had Dish Network for probably 7-8 years. I'm sure they've done some signal compressing, etc., over that time, but I wouldn't trade them for the Direct TV I saw yesterday. Also, I rarely get pixelation on HD Dish feeds, even in bad weather, so maybe some of that could be fixed by tweaking the aiming of the dish. Anyway, my 2 cents.

My antenna is aimed the same now as it was in December 2003 and the signal strength, on normal weather days, is also the same as it was then. My point is that Dish's HD ain't what it used to be. It probably is still a lot better than DirectTV, given what I've read elsewhere about their HD Lite, but it isn't up to the OTA broadcasts when viewing live NFL games in similar venues under similar conditions.

My antenna is aimed the same now as it was in December 2003 and the signal strength, on normal weather days, is also the same as it was then. My point is that Dish's HD ain't what it used to be. It probably is still a lot better than DirectTV, given what I've read elsewhere about their HD Lite, but it isn't up to the OTA broadcasts when viewing live NFL games in similar venues under similar conditions.

I totally agree. I have OTA and have posted months ago my 2 cents on how the HD locals on E* compared with OTA. They were close (used pinstripes in Jay Leno's suit as an example) but OTA was clearly the winner. I have the locals on E* because of a couple of TV's that aren't connected to my antenna (can't afford a lot of line splits in low power heaven). I always watch OTA instead of E* locals on the TV's with OTA.

Is your preamp on the antenna or indoors at the receiver?

It is right at the antenna. There is a direct feed from there to the D* HD Tivo with about 40 feet of RG-6.

I suspect the Channel Master 7777 works so well at my location because of the low noise factor and not having any strong local sources to overload the front end.

Boy, this thread has been quiet. Not a sCARE bash in days. ;)

Any update on construction or pictures?

Boy, this thread has been quiet. Not a sCARE bash in days. ;)
I suspect it is quiet because everyone is too busy watching the construction progress on the LCG web page. It's hard to keep up with those constant updates.
:rolleyes:

Here is my update. Well, as updated as MS' live.com is.
http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?v=2&cp=39.731288~-105.234448&style=h&lvl=16&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&scene=10305507&encType=1

or maybe as update as google maps.
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=N+Lookout+Mountain+Rd,+Golden,+Jefferson,+Colorado+80401,+ United+States&sll=39.58389,-104.80116&sspn=0.007822,0.014462&ie=UTF8&cd=2&ll=39.731465,-105.234185&spn=0.003903,0.01075&t=h&z=17&om=0

or a yahoo map
http://maps.yahoo.com/index.php#q1=golden,%20co&trf=0&lon=-105.234829&lat=39.731614&mag=2

I spend hours at a time on these things and Google Earth. I really like live.com maps because of their bird's eye view (not available on these maps, sorry). It's strange, my house is being built in some directional views and finished in others.

My question is where is the new tower being built?

39.73083 -105.23167

Had to call KCNC Monday night to turn the HD on after they were done with their weather crawls during CSI Miami. Apparently, stations still can't get this right after how many years? Does anybody at these stations monitor their signal?

Yea, and NBC really mucked up Heroes.

Had to call KCNC Monday night to turn the HD on after they were done with their weather crawls during CSI Miami. Apparently, stations still can't get this right after how many years? Does anybody at these stations monitor their signal?

they don't NEED anyone. they have you.

Watching 24 last night, Fox showed numerous weather alerts. Every time, the picture goes to SD and shrinks at the top. Very annoying, but at least they switch back to HD when it is done.

I thought about recording 24 off the D* LA feed to skip the weather notices and watch it later. On second thought, LA probably was interrupting the show there with fire alerts!

Yea, and NBC really mucked up Heroes.

It must have been KUSA, I watched Heroes on KOAA out of CS and saw no problems. Fortunately the weather didnt hit down there until 9 so no weather warnings

Anyone else having KUSA breakups lately? Since Sunday KUSA keeps breaking up. Tried adjusting the antenna but can't get it to come in consistently. Everything else is fine.

Last night I was but I attributed that to the storm. This morning during the news and Today everything was fine.

Originally posted by MadMonkey:
they don't NEED anyone. they have you.

Sixteen posts and you're already a comedian!

Watching 24 last night, Fox showed numerous weather alerts. Every time, the picture goes to SD and shrinks at the top. Very annoying, but at least they switch back to HD when it is done.
As long as they're paying attention; two weeks ago when we had severe weather during 24 they took about five minutes after the scroll ended to flip back to the HD feed.

What I couldn't believe was the time they ran a scroll to inform us that a Severe Thunderstorm Watch, which had been issued at 2:55 that afternoon, was still in effect. I can understand crawls for warnings, but certainly not to remind people a watch was still in effect; that was overkill.

Hey Guys...

Here's a couple of snaps of the current construction on Lookout. (These picture are from CBS4 Photographer David Gregg from the CBS4 Helicoptor on May 4, 2007)

http://www.santellaproductions.com/dtv/Lookoutmt1.jpg
http://www.santellaproductions.com/dtv/lookoutmtn2.jpg

Here's links to bigger images.

Pic 1 (http://www.santellaproductions.com/dtv/Lookoutmt1a.jpg)
Pic 2 (http://www.santellaproductions.com/dtv/lookoutmtn2a.jpg)

I drove by yesterday on 470 and you could really see the work from the highway.

........and it only took about 10 years to get this far.........amazing progress eh!

With the way things have gone they'll find gold in them there hills and tower construction will be set behind yet again while they dig up the booty......Then there will be a lawsuit claiming scare owns the mineral rights.....

Seriously, it's good to finally see some real progress (and it's about time).

http://home.earthlink.net/~lu_max/AVS/lookoutmtn2a.jpg

The fella driving that Cat better be careful next to that guy wire. If he hits it it will snap, whip out and decapitate hundreds of innocent girl scouts! :eek: The tower would then of course rocket down the mountain like a missile but not before causing every powerline in CO to fail due to the quantified "Tower/Powerline Cascading Domino Theorem". This would result in a fiery conflagration the likes of which have not been seen since the giant meteor that caused the Permian extinction struck the planet Earth. Oh the horror, the horror!

:rolleyes:

Geof, the way this thing has been going I wouldn't expect them to stumble upon a stash of gold, more likely illegally buried asbestos or nuclear waste. Perhaps even a prehistoric burial site of some kind that would halt construction indefinitely. <sigh>


Hmmm, I though only Ernie was allowed to take high-res shots of Caterpillars? ;)

[IMG].............Geof, the way this thing has been going I wouldn't expect them to stumble upon a stash of gold, more likely illegally buried asbestos or nuclear waste. Perhaps even a prehistoric burial site of some kind that would halt construction indefinitely. <sigh>..........

I vote for the nuclear (or is that nucular like W says :rolleyes: ) waste theory. It turns out to be in containers labeled Rocky Flats, and the ensuing investigation will take about two years before they are allowed to begin to remove the waste. During this time, (S)CARE has the mountain declared a toxic waste site and has it condemned and ALL of the towers removed for the safety of the tower/control room workers. Somehow it just seems to fit the rest of the story.
:D

(or is that nucular like W says :rolleyes: )As did Jimmy Carter before him. I'm not sure why, but this prononuciation seems very common among southerners.

Thanks for the pics Ernie

As did Jimmy Carter before him. I'm not sure why, but this prononuciation seems very common among southerners.
At least Jimmy was raised in the South, although he was a nuclear engineer which always made me wonder why he didn't correct himself. He was smart enough to know better.

Back on topic, Ernie, thanks for the pictures.

Jetlag,
At first glance of your blowup of the Cat and the guy wire I thought it looked like a scud missile zeroing in on the Cat. I then thought that was even beyond the bounds of what I expect from scare but then realized I wouldn't be shocked if they did ...

And yes, nuclear waste makes more sense but right now the mountain looks like one of the myriad mountains with tailings all over the place (except for the lack of a mine of course).

As did Jimmy Carter before him. I'm not sure why, but this prononuciation seems very common among southerners.
The scary thing is Kiefer Sutherland uses the same pronounciation on 24.

The scary thing is Kiefer Sutherland uses the same pronounciation on 24.Not just Kiefer, but Homer Simpson too. And of course both Homer and Jimmy Carter have a background in the nuclear industry :-)

So it seems to be a fairly common pronunciation, but also one that sounds wrong to those who don't use it. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nucular

If you haven't visited the FCC's home page recently, there are a couple of documents posted yesterday that deal with several of the Denver stations. Looks like the LCG stations have approved extensions now. It also looks like KWGN, KRMA, and KCEC are considered part of Lookout Mountain by the FCC for purposes of building out their facilities. KBDI has apparently been screwing around trying to get on channel 13 for digital. As a result, they were one of a handful of stations that lost interference protection and appear to be stuck with their STA power of 42 kW on channel 38. I couldn't find any reference to KPXC which never broadcast on an STA and hasn't, AFAIK, started any construction of permanent facilities.

I have been very disturbed by the lack of any news from KRMA about their HD buildout. It seems like the last thing we heard was that they were going to remain on RP since the Morrison plan hit the fan. Given the new Federal Law, there is no reason for them not to build out their facility on Lookout for HD now, yet AFAIK there has been no news from them. Has anyone else seen anything from them?

Where can I find what the final channel assignments for the Denver stations will be once the conversion to digital takes place? I am thinking of doing some antenna work soon and I seem to recall that some of the stations will be going back to their VHF frequencies.

Where can I find what the final channel assignments for the Denver stations will be once the conversion to digital takes place? I am thinking of doing some antenna work soon and I seem to recall that some of the stations will be going back to their VHF frequencies.

I'm not sure where it is in writing but I believe 6, 7, & 9 will be returning to their VHF freq.

KRMA (6) is going to stay on 18 according to the FCC database. There is also a digital station on channel 11, KDEV, that has a strong signal but doesn't do HD and its PSIP is so screwed up (it apprently lacks channel remapping info) only one of my receivers is able to see it. It has a music subchannel similar to KWGN's TUBE.

KDEV-DT may be strong in Highlands Ranch, but I don't get a whiff of them up in Louisville.

There is also a digital station on channel 11, KDEV, that has a strong signal but doesn't do HD and its PSIP is so screwed up (it apprently lacks channel remapping info) only one of my receivers is able to see it. It has a music subchannel similar to KWGN's TUBE.

KDEV, Channel 11 is a strange station. According to the FCC site, it is licensed to DENVER BROADCASTING, INC. , but it is listed in Cheyenne, WY even though the transmitter is located just west of Ft. Collins.

TPW - here is the profile to the CS stations. Not too bad, but a portion of Bald Mountain gets in the way. You're right about the Denver stations (at least to Lookout) - it's not that good; Devil's Head is the primary culprit.

Posted by kenavs:
KDEV, Channel 11 is a strange station. According to the FCC site, it is licensed to DENVER BROADCASTING, INC. , but it is listed in Cheyenne, WY even though the transmitter is located just west of Ft. Collins.

KDEV is an LP in Denver on analog 39. For whatever reason, they apparently elected to locate their digital channel near Ft. Collins with Cheyenne as the city of license. I like to watch them once in a while - they carry old shows like the Rifleman and Wild, Wild West on a network they call Retro. The company that owns them created this Retro network and they have a smattering of stations across the country. Sometimes you'll see them ID themselves as some station out of NE Ohio, so they apparently don't edit the content they broadcast very well. I suspect the Denver LP will go dark after 2-17-09 as the digital's FCC coverage map on the FCC web site covers almost all of metro Denver except the SE side - e.g. Parker

If you don't get a sniff of this station, I suspect it's due to their PSIP info (or lack thereof). Most of my receivers don't see this station either (2 different E*'s and 2 Accurian's). My Best Buy Insignia is the only receiver that can decode the PSIP. I believe they are supposed to remap their digital channel 11 to channel 33 (and why it's channel 33 instead of 39 is beyond me), but info is apparently missing from their PSIP. I've emailed them about it but they haven't fixed it.

I wonder if Deb's got a pair of these...

http://www.engadget.com/2007/05/20/isabodywear-underwear-fends-off-cellphone-radiation/

I wonder if Deb's got a pair of these...

http://www.engadget.com/2007/05/20/isabodywear-underwear-fends-off-cellphone-radiation/
I don't know if she does, maybe we should order her a pair! Better yet, maybe we should see if they will use the same thread to make a hat that we could have sent to her address. It seems only fair now that the tower is being built and she will soon be radiated by millions of watts of RF radiation.
:D

TPW - here is the profile to the CS stations. Not too bad, but a portion of Bald Mountain gets in the way.
Thanks Gakon! Yup, it looks like I've moved too far East! I have been to a few places in WP where you can actually see the C/S towers. This, obviously, ain't one of them. :(
....jc

I believe they are supposed to remap their digital channel 11 to channel 33 (and why it's channel 33 instead of 39 is beyond me), but info is apparently missing from their PSIP.
KDEV is on channel 33 in Cheyenne, with KDEV-LP on channel 39 in Denver. Here's a Wikipedia article about the station:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KDEV

Gotta give a big thanks to KMGH for not interrupting Lost with the weather segments (like we didn't know it was raining).

Taking commercial time on one of the the top rated shows must have reall cost some $$$.

Apologies if this has been covered, but I read back a ways and did not see it. PBS digital - 6.1 - has been cutting out on me for the last two months or so. It cuts out for maybe 3-5 seconds, then comes back, then it might cut out three or four times in a minute, then be fine for 15 minutes. Signal strength is low to mid 80s, which is better than 4.1 (about 70) and I don't have any trouble with 4.1 ever. Only 6.1 does this, and only in the last two months or so. Since signal strength does not seem to be the issue, any ideas?

Apologies if this has been covered, but I read back a ways and did not see it. PBS digital - 6.1 - has been cutting out on me for the last two months or so. It cuts out for maybe 3-5 seconds, then comes back, then it might cut out three or four times in a minute, then be fine for 15 minutes. Signal strength is low to mid 80s, which is better than 4.1 (about 70) and I don't have any trouble with 4.1 ever. Only 6.1 does this, and only in the last two months or so. Since signal strength does not seem to be the issue, any ideas?

I've always been suspicious that multipath from airplane reflections causes over-the-air problems with digital. With analog I sometimes see the picture flutter when an airplane flies nearby. With digital, I suspect everything will be lost.

Just curious .. does it happen more often in the morning and afternoon when air traffic is the heaviest?

--- CHAS

Hey guys

I decided to get a cheap UHF antenna from Radio Shack (U-75R-UHF) yesterday and set it up in the family room to see if I could get any HD channels over the air. At first, I was skeptical because I didn't have much success when I was living in Westminster. I moved to Highlands Ranch last year. To my surprise, I got 16 HD channels including the following

KWGN
KCNC
KRMA
KMGH
KUSA
KTVD
KDVR

I think I'm going to invest in a better antenna and place it in the attic. I can run a cable from basement all the way up to the attic. According to antennaweb.org I need a medium multi-directional antenna to receive KMGH. Also, should I consider adding preamp or amp?

I'm going to dump Qwest Choice TV HD package once I have the antenna and everything set up. I'm paying $15/month for the HD package and I don't get all locals and the total of HD channels is 15. I don't think it is worth the money and I noticed that the OTA picture quality is significantly better than Qwest.

Thanks in advance for your help - I know I'm late in the game.

Ethan

I've always been suspicious that multipath from airplane reflections causes over-the-air problems with digital. With analog I sometimes see the picture flutter when an airplane flies nearby. With digital, I suspect everything will be lost.

Just curious .. does it happen more often in the morning and afternoon when air traffic is the heaviest?

--- CHAS

I seldom watch 6.1 in the morning or afternnon because it has that Create show on. It happens at night. Actually, it seems to happen more later at night. I don't think it is realted to any kind of traffic.

TPW - here is the profile to the CS stations. Not too bad, but a portion of Bald Mountain gets in the way. You're right about the Denver stations (at least to Lookout) - it's not that good; Devil's Head is the primary culprit.
Again Thanks Gakon! We did a tower climb today to remove some of my toys. For grins I took the CM 4228 and set it up in an upstairs bedroom in my townhome with a North facing window. I also used the CM 7775 preamp. The only thing out there from Denver was 3 KBDI channels. So, it's not a total blackout!

Then I took everything downstairs to my South facing sliding glass door. Placing the 4228 on a chair I picked up KOAA-DT(NBC), KTSC-DT(PBS), KRDO-DT(ABC) and KXRM-DT(FOX). The only no show was KKTV-DT(CBS). All that with no LOS(and on the backside of their radiation patterns)!

So, I may have some HD football in my future after all! :p
....jc

Hey guys

I think I'm going to invest in a better antenna and place it in the attic. I can run a cable from basement all the way up to the attic. According to antennaweb.org I need a medium multi-directional antenna to receive KMGH. Also, should I consider adding preamp or amp?

Ethan

I live just North of C470 in Centennial and I have a DB4 antenna installed in my attic without any amp or preamp. This antenna is connected to a PC in my basement for OTA HD video capture. I haven't used it to any great extent but it seems to pull in the locals without issue. My 2 cents.

http://www.pcworld.com/article/id,132289-c,hdtv/article.html

Four times the rez....four times the tower.

Actually, 16 times the resolution. Big freaking tower! ;)

Actually, 16 times the resolution. Big freaking tower! ;)All that RF raining down from Lookout Mountain.... makes me warm just to think about it.

Here is the new threat to our world. Not really HDTV related, but probably something sCARE will be looking out for next. The FARK.com headline was: BBC documentary on Wi-Fi dangers measured Wi-Fi radiation with monitoring tool designed and built by... a campaigner against Wi-Fi radiation

http://techdigest.tv/2007/05/bbc_cops_more_f.html

http://www.pcworld.com/article/id,132289-c,hdtv/article.html
It's funny... I 've yet to ever see ATSC HD look as good as the analog NHK Hi-Vision system demoed widely at the 1988 Consumer Electronics Show...

Wow, it's obsolete before it even gets started!

NTSC RIP Aged 69 years

1940 - 2009


ATSC RIP Died during Gestation


--- CHAS

Anybody noticing alittle unusual D* picture breakup this evening?

It's funny... I 've yet to ever see ATSC HD look as good as the analog NHK Hi-Vision system demoed widely at the 1988 Consumer Electronics Show...

But wasn't that on a CRT display at a somewhat smaller size than the average HDTV of today? Just asking.

But wasn't that on a CRT display at a somewhat smaller size than the average HDTV of today? Just asking.
It was on a CRT, which meant it automatically looked better than most HD displays do today, but I'm comparing what I saw with ATSC on an equivalent sized CRT.

Boy how things have quieted down. By the way has anybody spotted any cement trucks on the mountain yet?

Boy how things have quieted down. By the way has anybody spotted any cement trucks on the mountain yet?
Even at full bore, I suspect it will be several months yet before any concrete is called for on the mountain. :(

Don't forget, from the LCG's point of view there is no reason to rush as long as they are on the air by the switch-over deadline, and frankly, if they didn't quite make that I doubt seriously the FCC would do anything anyway. I am sure the LCG is aware of that. The only reason to rush would be to get their signal up for the good of the public in the greater metropolitan area, and of course we already know that is very low on the priority list.

I have a friend who is relocating to Denver from Grand Junction. He asked me the other day which TV provider I would recommend; I was at a loss. I used to be a big fan of E* but since they stopped my NY CBS feed, eliminated the free program data on the 811 and jacked their prices up I'm not exactly enamored any longer. He had standard cable and will be acquiring his first HDTV once he moves here so he has no commitments and no gear.

So my question to all of you is; if you were starting from scratch here in Denver who would you go with and what gear would you get? He did mention that he wants to be able to time shift, so that would really be the only requirement.

Actually he didn't say "time shift", instead he asked me what brand of "high definition VCR" he should buy. ;) I had to set him straight on that one.

I can't speak for other services, but the D* HR20 started out with a lot of bugs, but in the last few months the software updates have really smoothed out the operation. I did not previously own a TiVo or DVR of any kind so I can't compare the HR20 to other brands, but I am happy with mine at the moment. Now if only D* will improve their picture quality when they get the new sat up and convert to MPEG4 for the nationals, all will be well. Of course the other consideration is programming. I have D* mostly because of the NFLST, so that influences my decision for services. YMMV.