I just put up a CM 4221 4 bay uhf antenna today for Denver dtv's. I'm waiting to receive a Winegard 28db uhf amp, which I should receive in a few days.

I live in Milliken, near Greeley. Right now I get really good dtv signals on KWGN, KDEV, KBDI, KTFD, KDEN, KDVR. Since swapping out a small combo vhf-uhf antenna with the 4221, I noticed a tremendous improvement in signal. I actually have 'sniffs' of signal from KCNC, KRMA, KUSA, and KTVD. Haven't noticed anything from KMGH.

After I get the 28db amp put up, what are my chances of snagging KCNC, KRMA, KMGH, KUSA, and KTVD? I'm patient to wait for the tower to be built - just curious :-)

This is a follow-up to my first post. On Friday I moved the 4 bay uhf antenna up almost 6ft. higher so that it completely clears the roof line. On Saturday I experimented with the Winegard AP-4800 uhf (hi gain lo noise) preamp that I ordered and I can say it has been returned to its shipping carton. I believe it is defective. I tried it six times (install and uninstall), paying very close attention that the preamp on the mast and the power supply were connected correctly. Everytime I hooked it up, it killed EVERY BIT of the dtv signal that I had. Currently I am using a cheap 12db indoor preamp and channels 2, 11, & 31 come in really strong. On Friday evening, with the antenna move, I was able to snag 4, 6, 7, & 20, and some of the other religious & Spanish channels I hadn't decoded before. Actually the signals on 4, 7, 9, & 20 were very respectable. Does this sound like there is something wrong with the preamp, or might I be doing something wrong?

But in that regard, I ran into a peculiarity. On both Saturday morning and this morning (Sunday) at approximately 9:30, the signal strength on all four of those channels just suddenly dropped and now the dtv stb can't decode any of those. It was almost like a switch was flipped or something technically changed with the signal strength. I am wondering if 4, 7, 9 & 20 run higher power in the evening and early morning, then cut power later in the morning? It's most puzzling this has happened now two mornings in a row. :confused:

Does this sound like there is something wrong with the preamp, or might I be doing something wrong?
As oxothuk tried to tell you, in your situation, a preamp is not likely to make a lot of difference. Actually, it sounds like the preamp may be working just fine, and that the 28db is probably overloading your tuner.

If preamps were some sort of magical device, we wouldn't need big antennas, would we?
....jc

I don't think 40-17 is KRMA. I'm also getting a strong lock on 11-1 and 11-2. I haven't seen a signal from them in a while. I think that is KDEV-DT but I'm not sure as that frequency as changed owners/stations so many times my head is spinning.

Not KRMA, 40-17 is KRMT. The signal I get on 40-17 is Daystar religious.

Also, KRMA does have bad PSIP data; my TiVO S3 doesn't see any PID data for 6-2 and so refuses to tune it, and when I called KRMA a week or two ago their response was, basically, "yeah, we know."

As oxothuk tried to tell you, in your situation, a preamp is not likely to make a lot of difference. Actually, it sounds like the preamp may be working just fine, and that the 28db is probably overloading your tuner.

If preamps were some sort of magical device, we wouldn't need big antennas, would we?
....jc

Thanks TotallyPreWired. As long as I've been doing electronics & radio hobby stuff, it just didn't occur to me that I was going to overload the tuner with that much db of power. An electronics tech acquaintance in NY told me that the most likely culprit is channel 25, which is only 11 miles from my qth and cranking 5 million watts. I guess the preamp will be returned to the dealer and a larger uhf antenna is in the works. :eek:

I guess the preamp will be returned to the dealer and a larger uhf antenna is in the works. :eek:
A 4228 would work well for you(Ihave one sitting here on a chair - Don't Ask! :p), but with a few of the stations going to mid VHF frequencies at analog shutdown, I don't know that it would be your best choice. I would look for a VHF/UHF combo.

Good Luck!
....jc

Not sure what to attribute this one, but 6-1 is down for me tonight (first time I have seen it down at my place). I got the download of the new CE software for my HR20 on Friday and it was working yesterday, so I am not sure it is the software issue, but it could be a PSIP issue. I do not get a lack of signal notice, only a black screen. Anyone else tonight with problems??

Not sure what to attribute this one, but 6-1 is down for me tonight (first time I have seen it down at my place). I got the download of the new CE software for my HR20 on Friday and it was working yesterday, so I am not sure it is the software issue, but it could be a PSIP issue. I do not get a lack of signal notice, only a black screen. Anyone else tonight with problems??
It is down on Comcast as well.

KRMA-DT is back up for me as of 7:00pm. It was down earlier. Signal strength is 60%, which is low compared to what I believe it normally runs.

Not KRMA, 40-17 is KRMT. The signal I get on 40-17 is Daystar religious.

their response was, basically, "yeah, we know."

yeah, you're right, I misread that.

Does anybody have a program guide for the Retro Net on KDEV-DT 11-1? I can't seem to find listings for them anywhere. Every time I try to change my titantv listings, it gives me the line-up for KKTU, the previous station on that frequency or for the spanish channel that is on 11-2.

I honestly think KRMA-DT's broadcasting from Morrison now, perhaps at a low test power.

Anyone have the requisite equipment to be able to determine what direction their signal's coming from?

KRMA-DT is back up for me as of 7:00pm. It was down earlier. Signal strength is 60%, which is low compared to what I believe it normally runs.
Just took a look after watching John From Cincinnati and 6-1 is back up and looking fine here too. Sounds like it was a universal outage.

FWIW, my guess is that KRMA-DT is now coming from the Mt. Morrison site now. My HD-OTA antenna is clamped to my back deck, so I just went out and loosened the clamps and spun it around to point to the Lookout/Morrison area. All of the OTA DT signals went away except for 6-1, 2-1, and 31-1. My 6-1 signal from the RP has never been anywhere near strong enough for that to be true. I would say from this experiment that they are now transmitting from Mt. Morrison. Unfortunately, the D* HR20 is not programed to display signal strength yet so I can do a true signal strength comparison measurement, but there is no way that I could ever pick up a sniff from the RP of any channel while pointed at Lookout with the UHF only antenna. I do have several OTA receivers in the system which have signal strength meters, but it would be a pain to move the antenna cable to one of them just for a two minute test, so I will consider this test conclusive for my book. Right now I only use the HR20 for OTA so I don't split the signal.

I can't believe they haven't bothered to advertise, or at least post here on the AVS thread that they were moving. I guess the new station engineers their don't follow us like the old crew did.

(Wow, top of the page tonight, guess I better get out and buy a lottery ticket!)
:D

Does anybody have a program guide for the Retro Net on KDEV-DT 11-1? I can't seem to find listings for them anywhere. Every time I try to change my titantv listings, it gives me the line-up for KKTU, the previous station on that frequency or for the spanish channel that is on 11-2.

Should be the same as KDEV-LP, analog 39.

FWIW, my guess is that KRMA-DT is now coming from the Mt. Morrison site now. My HD-OTA antenna is clamped to my back deck, so I just went out and loosened the clamps and spun it around to point to the Lookout/Morrison area. All of the OTA DT signals went away except for 6-1, 2-1, and 31-1. My 6-1 signal from the RP has never been anywhere near strong enough for that to be true. I would say from this experiment that they are now transmitting from Mt. Morrison. Unfortunately, the D* HR20 is not programed to display signal strength yet so I can do a true signal strength comparison measurement, but there is no way that I could ever pick up a sniff from the RP of any channel while pointed at Lookout with the UHF only antenna. I do have several OTA receivers in the system which have signal strength meters, but it would be a pain to move the antenna cable to one of them just for a two minute test, so I will consider this test conclusive for my book. Right now I only use the HR20 for OTA so I don't split the signal.
:D
So where would they have put their antenna? I'm pretty sure the Bear Creek Development proposal that was shot down in the Court of Appeals never made it back to consideration by Jeffco, and with the site owner having passwd on, it was unlikely to have as much force behind it. Did they go in with the "under 200 feet" exemption that KWGN used? I saw the previous post referring to an article where something about an "ice bridge" on an existing structure, or something. I just thought there would have been more sqwawking from (s)CARE, which IMHO shot themselves in the foot with the Morrison deal too, since that would have been mostly invisble and would have reduced spurious NIEMR as well. (Of course that was really not their goal anyway.)

Is KRMA-DT gone or is their signal level just really low?

They've been "No Signal" for me for about the last 48 hours now.

I haven't seen them for days on my Dish 811. The guides never tell you whats on so I didn't bother to see if my LG LST4200A could lock a signal (i.e., can't tell if there is anything I want to watch and there seldom is, so it isn't worth the effort).

Also, anyone know what the deal with KRMT-DT is? Their PSIP data must be way off, as I get 40-1 through 40-17 mapped, but only 40-17 has a signal that's actually tunable.

I just get a whiff of a signal from them on both my antennas (one pointed at RP and the other at LOM). Anyone know from where they are broadcasting?

This is a follow-up to my first post. On Friday I moved the 4 bay uhf antenna up almost 6ft. higher so that it completely clears the roof line. On Saturday I experimented with the Winegard AP-4800 uhf (hi gain lo noise) preamp that I ordered and I can say it has been returned to its shipping carton. I believe it is defective. I tried it six times (install and uninstall), paying very close attention that the preamp on the mast and the power supply were connected correctly. Everytime I hooked it up, it killed EVERY BIT of the dtv signal that I had. Currently I am using a cheap 12db indoor preamp and channels 2, 11, & 31 come in really strong. On Friday evening, with the antenna move, I was able to snag 4, 6, 7, & 20, and some of the other religious & Spanish channels I hadn't decoded before. Actually the signals on 4, 7, 9, & 20 were very respectable. Does this sound like there is something wrong with the preamp, or might I be doing something wrong?

But in that regard, I ran into a peculiarity. On both Saturday morning and this morning (Sunday) at approximately 9:30, the signal strength on all four of those channels just suddenly dropped and now the dtv stb can't decode any of those. It was almost like a switch was flipped or something technically changed with the signal strength. I am wondering if 4, 7, 9 & 20 run higher power in the evening and early morning, then cut power later in the morning? It's most puzzling this has happened now two mornings in a row. :confused:

I don't think that your pre-amp is defective, it is just too much amplification for your situation. If you get a strong signal and lock without a pre-amp, you don't need a pre-amp. If you can lock a signal, but just barely, then a low power pre-amp (8 to 10 db) may be a big help, but 28 db over-saturates the signal and is useless.

I don't know if the stations vary their signal throughout the day, but the atmospheric conditions and the amount of interference (other signals and noise) varies throughout the day and on weekends.

BTW, I wholly endorse the idea that anyone buying an antenna now to get OTA DTV should go with a UHF/VHF combo. The transition date is actually close now (yippee!) and some of our main locals, unfortunately, made a marketing decision to stay with their high VHF frequencies after the transition. Now here I sit with 3 UHF antennas (only one being used) I purchased and after the transition I'll be solely on the old UHF/VHF combo that I inherited when I bought the house back in 1993. Ironic!

So where would they have put their antenna? I'm pretty sure the Bear Creek Development proposal that was shot down in the Court of Appeals never made it back to consideration by Jeffco, and with the site owner having passwd on, it was unlikely to have as much force behind it. Did they go in with the "under 200 feet" exemption that KWGN used? I saw the previous post referring to an article where something about an "ice bridge" on an existing structure, or something. I just thought there would have been more sqwawking from (s)CARE, which IMHO shot themselves in the foot with the Morrison deal too, since that would have been mostly invisble and would have reduced spurious NIEMR as well. (Of course that was really not their goal anyway.)

Their proposal called for a newly developed horizontal antenna to be located on Mt. Morrison. I have no idea how much construction would have been involved, but it did get around the height restrictions. That was the plan which was taken to court and stopped at one point do to public notification issues prior to Jeffco Commissioner hearings on the plan. I had not heard it was approved or construction started, so I don't know what they have done. I wonder if they just attached a new antenna on their existing tower using the Congressional Law which allows modifications on existing structures without approval of the county???? That might make the most sense at this time, and also explain why no one saw any construction take place.

From an article, "The bill states, in summary, that any person who holds an approved Federal Communications Commission permit to construct or install either a digital television broadcast station antenna or tower, or both, located on Lookout Mountain, may construct, install, use, modify, replace, repair or consolidate such antenna or tower so long as it is the same height or less than the existing analog towers."

I can't find any information on their web pages about their DTV transition. I guess I find it odd that they would not mention it on the fund raisers or on a web page. I do know that I never lost the signal during my experiment no matter what direction it pointed, and that is only true of the 'high' power stations on Lookout for my location.

OK, so I went ahead and called KRMA and asked for "somebody in engineering."

Talked to a helpful lady and she confirmed that the digital signal is now coming from the "ice bridge" on Morrison.

So there you go. (Not that we don't trust your tests, jm :) )

OK, so I went ahead and called KRMA and asked for "somebody in engineering."

Talked to a helpful lady and she confirmed that the digital signal is now coming from the "ice bridge" on Morrison.

So there you go. (Not that we don't trust your tests, jm :) )
This isn't necessarily directed at dr_mal, but to anyone who can answer: So what exactly is an "ice bridge" in this context? What "site" is this located on up on Morrison?

OK, so I went ahead and called KRMA and asked for "somebody in engineering."

Talked to a helpful lady and she confirmed that the digital signal is now coming from the "ice bridge" on Morrison.

So there you go. (Not that we don't trust your tests, jm :) )


Thanks for the update and the sarcasm, :D but it turns out my test was accurate even though not very precise.
:rolleyes:

Your call will save me from having to run a test by connecting my other OTA receiver to check the signal levels. I don't suppose they mentioned approximately at what power level they will be transmitting. It must be pretty high, since I still easily see them in my antenna sidelobe while it is pointed at the RP.

This isn't necessarily directed at dr_mal, but to anyone who can answer: So what exactly is an "ice bridge" in this context? What "site" is this located on up on Morrison?
I had to look it up - here's a site with some pictures: ice bridge (http://www.copper.org/applications/electrical/pq/casestudy/kgbi_station_A6082.html). Another site I found said the purpose is to protect the cables from chunks of falling ice. Makes sense.

I don't suppose they mentioned approximately at what power level they will be transmitting.
No - I sensed that she was getting a little nervous with my questions, so I didn't push the issue. The only other information she gave me was that she didn't think they were getting rid of the RP setup.

This isn't necessarily directed at dr_mal, but to anyone who can answer: So what exactly is an "ice bridge" in this context? What "site" is this located on up on Morrison?

Ice Bridges

Also know as Waveguide Bridge, the Ice Bridge kit is designed to support the transmission lines from the tower to the cable entry port.

Today, when I was driving back up I-70, it looks like there is some new equipment on one of the towers. (The South tower) Something definitely looks different. I haven't noticed before because I haven't been looking up there lately. That must be KRMA's new added antenna on their existing tower structure.

No word from sCARE yet about this. I saw Deb picking up her dogs recently, she must have been out of town, buying that assisted-living condo in BocaDel Vista.

Should be the same as KDEV-LP, analog 39.

That returns KKTU info because they use to own that freqeuncy, ie all ABC listings that have nothing to do with RTN.

Today, when I was driving back up I-70, it looks like there is some new equipment on one of the towers. (The South tower) Something definitely looks different. I haven't noticed before because I haven't been looking up there lately. That must be KRMA's new added antenna on their existing tower structure.

No word from sCARE yet about this. I saw Deb picking up her dogs recently, she must have been out of town, buying that assisted-living condo in BocaDel Vista.

I am pretty much convinced that KRMA must have simply decided to use the new congressional law to update their tower on Lookout, and your observation would make sense (I assume you were talking about Lookout). That would also explain why we never heard of Jeffco approving changes or construction to the proposed KRMA facility on Mt. Morrison. It might also explain why KRMA does not want to advertise the fact that they have a new transmitter and antenna located on Lookout since it is bound to antagonize the (S)CARE folds even more than ever. If this is true, then the (S)CARE folks can thank Deb in person for keeping their tower on Lookout instead of moving it to a new less visible facility on Mt. Morrison. Sorry my 'scientific experiment' last night could not distinguish between Mt. Morrison and Lookout. Not enough antenna gain (hence narrow beam) to distinguish things that closely.

BTW Ernie, according to the (S)CARE web page, Deb has been travelling to Washington D.C. "Her mission was to educate Congress that current RF radiation limits do not protect us from long-term radiation." :D
(S)CARE Web Page (http://www.c-a-r-e.org/)

I am pretty much convinced that KRMA must have simply decided to use the new congressional law to update their tower on Lookout

I hope you are right and they're not on Morrison, because I'm not even getting a sniff from them anymore. I'm hoping the reason I can't get them is their signal is really low power.

That returns KKTU info because they use to own that freqeuncy, ie all ABC listings that have nothing to do with RTN.
Then complain to Titan.

The Zap2It/Tribune listings that TiVO uses has the correct data.

I am pretty much convinced that KRMA must have simply decided to use the new congressional law to update their tower on Lookout, and your observation would make sense (I assume you were talking about Lookout).
But that doesn't sync with the answer someone got from KRMA, who said the signal was coming from Morrison now.

Also, the article I quoted said the antenna would be used on the ice bridge at the Mt. Morrison site.

I know things can change, but I can't believe the KRMA staff would mix up Mt. Morrison and Lookout. :)

Can anyone in Golden who would have to aim their antenna differently to pick up Lookout and Morrison confirm?

can't find any information on their web pages about their DTV transition. I guess I find it odd that they would not mention it on the fund raisers or on a web page. I do know that I never lost the signal during my experiment no matter what direction it pointed, and that is only true of the 'high' power stations on Lookout for my location.
Your antenna must be more omnidirectional than you think. :D

My UHF Yagi pointed directly at RP doesn't see KRMA-DT at all, but as soon as I start to point it back towards Morrison, the signal level picks up. The aim doesn't seem to be directly at Lookout, but I doubt my antenna's directional enough to be able to resolve that difference; I just know I see 0 signal when pointed at RP.

But that doesn't sync with the answer someone got from KRMA, who said the signal was coming from Morrison now.

Also, the article I quoted said the antenna would be used on the ice bridge at the Mt. Morrison site.

I know things can change, but I can't believe the KRMA staff would mix up Mt. Morrison and Lookout. :)

Can anyone in Golden who would have to aim their antenna differently to pick up Lookout and Morrison confirm?


Your antenna must be more omnidirectional than you think. :D
............


Hey, my speculation is worth exactly what you paid for it.
:cool:

As for the woman at KRMA not knowing the difference between Lookout and Mt. Morrison, if I were KRMA and was putting another antenna/transmitter up on Lookout, I would try to keep that a secret from (S)CARE as long as possible. She may actually not even have known anything other than the signal is now coming from the foothills. The Ice Bridge could just as easily refer to the connection from the tower to the old control room. Who knows what is going on. I just don't see how they could have gotten something built and working on Morrison without public discussion and approval, but I do understand from the new Federal law how they could modify their existing equipment for DTV as long as they didn't increase the size of the tower. Something like that is harder to shut down than it would be to prevent starting up.

Again, just understand I am speculating out loud here in the forum, I have no additional particular information to back up my claims other than the rather limited experiment I conducted last night. It would be nice if the KRMA folks (who I am betting still occasionally read this forum) would post something, but I am not holding my breath on this one.

Then complain to Titan.

The Zap2It/Tribune listings that TiVO uses has the correct data.

A place to find the correct listings like zap2it was what I was looking for. Thank you.

After catching up on the change in transmitter for KRMA-DT, I am happy to say that my ViP-622 is now receiving KRMA-DT at a strength of about 60 (not sure what the top end number is, DISH is goofy about signal meters). This is the first time I've ever been able to bring in the signal.

I'm located near Clover Basin and Mountain Drive, in the Meadow Mountain subdivision. Folks in Renaissance should be able to get it quite well if I can manage to bring it in with rabbit ears. :)

This site Mt Morrison & KRMA ice bridge (http://www.rftechnologies.net/news.html) mentions KRMA's intent to mount an antenna on an ice bridge. I don't think the news is new but its something.

After catching up on the change in transmitter for KRMA-DT, I am happy to say that my ViP-622 is now receiving KRMA-DT at a strength of about 60 (not sure what the top end number is, DISH is goofy about signal meters). This is the first time I've ever been able to bring in the signal.

I'm located near Clover Basin and Mountain Drive, in the Meadow Mountain subdivision. Folks in Renaissance should be able to get it quite well if I can manage to bring it in with rabbit ears. :)


I'm in Firestone (Stone Ridge subdivision), about 8 miles east of downtown Longmont, and experienced the same thing on my D* HR20. The signal meter went from N/A to 70% plus, and very stable. I thought it was due to a recent s/w upgrade on the HR20 (which claimed to improve OTA reception), but apparently it's the new transmitter site. It's coming in about as well as 31-1, even though my antenna is pointed at RP. Very glad to have 6-1 now.

This site Mt Morrison & KRMA ice bridge (http://www.rftechnologies.net/news.html) mentions KRMA's intent to mount an antenna on an ice bridge. I don't think the news is new but its something.
I wonder how they would have gotten permission to build a transmitter facility on Morrison?? Does anyone know, did they already have something there? Maybe they used the antenna mounted on their Lookout site instead????
:confused:

Well for what it's worth, I spent some time rotating my antenna for peak signal levels, and the peak I get for KRMA-DT is achieved with my antenna rotated significantly further south than the direction that gives the peak signal for KWGN-DT and KDVR-DT. Further when aimed to peak KRMA-DT, I don't get quite as good an analog signal from the Lookout stations as I do when it's aimed more southwest, directly at Lookout.

That, to me, says they really are broadcasting from Mt. Morrison.

According to an 2003 document I dug up here (http://saveeldoradomtn.org/towers/MtMorrisonApproved.html), apparently Channel 59 already has an existing 60' tower on the site, on whose ice bridge KRMA could have mounted their new digital antenna.

Seems like doing that would mean they wouldn't have to build a new tower, thus bypassing sCARE, but obviously I can't say for sure. Recall that the most recent Morrison decision (http://broadcastengineering.com/RF/tower-mount-morrison-20060518/) only says that a new tower can't be built; it says nothing about adding an antenna to existing infrastructure.

By the way , the final DTV channel assignments (http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/FCC-07-138A2.pdf) are out from the FCC.

Here's how things play out for the post-transition Front Range world:

NTSC ATSC
=============
2 34
4 35
6 18
7 7
9 9
12 13
14 15
20 19
22 21
25 29
31 32
41 40
50 51
53 46
59 43

...I am happy to say that my ViP-622 is now receiving KRMA-DT at a strength of about 60...near Clover Basin and Mountain Drive, in the Meadow Mountain subdivision {of Longmont}.

My Sony Wega wouldn't pull them in last night from near 17th and Alpine. That's with a VHF/UHF combo in the attic over the garage. I didn't try my D* H20 receiver, though; that's a project for tonight.

I think it's Morrision, I definitely saw something different up there. If I get a minute, I'll take a pic to see.

Just got off the phone with John Anderson, Chief Broadcast Engineer at KRMA, and he told me the following:


Yes, they are now transmitting from Mt. Morrison.

Yes, they're using the new antenna mentioned in the articles; it's mounted on the ice bridge between the transmitter building and the existing tower, which is Channel 20's NTSC tower.

They are at full licensed power for KRMA-DT now. No low power transmitter, what you are getting now in terms of signal is what you are going to be getting for at least the next three years.

Three years? Yeah, before they put any more work into Morrison or into fighting the zoning battle to build a new tower there, they want to see what's going to happen with the LCG towers and/or if they can use 20's tower once the analog cutover happens; they might also move to the LCG tower if there's space.

They're prohibited by the stupid JeffCo zoning regs from not only putting their transmitter on Lookout but from doing anything to not only improve the existing tower. He said it will last until the analog shutoff but beyond that thanks to JeffCo it's not even worth the effort to maintain it.

They still have the transmitter on RP, and will be switching back in about a week for a few days while they finish a few more things up at Morrison, as right now their digital signal is going from the studio to RP and then to Morrison via a microwave link. They wanted to get the Morrison site up and running before their construction permit ran out.

Thanks to their existing construction permit, they were able to fire up the Morrison transmitter because of the Senate legislation that let LCG start construction.


His exact words were "Hey, you caught us!"

They're also going to try and fix the PIDs on 6-2 so that S3 TiVOs and Windows Media Center PCs can pick it up.

I can't lock KRMA-DT from Fort Collins with an outdoor antenna (though I can now see that it is there on the signal meter, which bounces between 0 and 60) so I'm disappointed if that is full power. Maybe there is something else wrong with the signal, since it is breaking up to some extent on Comcast cable also.

I can't lock KRMA-DT from Fort Collins with an outdoor antenna (though I can now see that it is there on the signal meter, which bounces between 0 and 60) so I'm disappointed if that is full power. Maybe there is something else wrong with the signal, since it is breaking up to some extent on Comcast cable also.

I just checked and I can't get it in Greeley, either.

Just got off the phone with John Anderson, Chief Broadcast Engineer at KRMA, and he told me the following:...............................
His exact words were "Hey, you caught us!"
....................

Thanks for the information and the update. It now makes sense. I could not believe they built a transmitter building on Morrison without anyone knowing, it turns out they are using 20's structure. Sounds like a pretty good compromise for now. It is interesting that they are again considering going back to Lookout with the LCG is that is possible.

One observation, I am not sure why this comment applies
"They're prohibited by the stupid JeffCo zoning regs from not only putting their transmitter on Lookout but from doing anything to not only improve the existing tower" unless they would need to file a new application to the FCC to modify the existing tower on Lookout. It seems like the law says that if they had that FCC permit they would be good to go, but then IANAL.

KRMA's new antenna is bad news for me. I live in Louisville and always got great reception from KRMAs low power RP signal. But I can't get KRMA with my DB-2 pointed SE towards Denver at all, and if I point it SW, I could only get a weak (~40) signal which broke up frequently. I really hope they'll improve something about the new setup, although from the message below, it sounds like I'm screwed since they say they're already at full power. (and since I'm in Louisville, I can't get the PBS 12 channel either, since Squaw Mtn doesn't come in for us here). No more PBS for me, I guess. :( (and no more pledges for them either)

KRMA's new antenna is bad news for me. I live in Louisville and always got great reception from KRMAs low power RP signal. But I can't get KRMA with my DB-2 pointed SE towards Denver at all, and if I point it SW, I could only get a weak (~40) signal which broke up frequently. I really hope they'll improve something about the new setup, although from the message below, it sounds like I'm screwed since they say they're already at full power. (and since I'm in Louisville, I can't get the PBS 12 channel either, since Squaw Mtn doesn't come in for us here). No more PBS for me, I guess. :( (and no more pledges for them either)

Ouch, that's harsh. Anyone else in his area with a problem that bad? It sure doesn't seem like you should be that blacked out. Are you sure they are no cable problems or some other mechanical or electrical issues on you OTA set up? Do you get channel 31 and 2 still?

I should add that I have an indoor DB-2 antenna (with DigitalStream 3150+), pointed SE out of a 3rd story window towards downtown, and I get 2,4,7,9,20,31,53 (and sometimes 25 or 14).
When I point it SW to try to get KRMA, it's pointed through walls, so perhaps if I had a clear view, it would work (but I'm in a condo, so I don't have that option).

Ouch, that's harsh. Anyone else in his area with a problem that bad? It sure doesn't seem like you should be that blacked out. Are you sure they are no cable problems or some other mechanical or electrical issues on you OTA set up? Do you get channel 31 and 2 still?

Ouch, that's harsh. Anyone else in his area with a problem that bad? It sure doesn't seem like you should be that blacked out. Are you sure they are no cable problems or some other mechanical or electrical issues on you OTA set up? Do you get channel 31 and 2 still?

I'm getting a 0 reading in NW Longmont, 31-1 and 2-1 coming in perfectly. I will try a second antenna tonight, but that means putting it in my front yard as my house is directly between my antenna and Morrison. I always got great reception from all the RP and Lookout stations by pointing at RP. Thanks again Scare :mad:

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=DT1157822.html

"They're prohibited by the stupid JeffCo zoning regs from not only putting their transmitter on Lookout but from doing anything to not only improve the existing tower" unless they would need to file a new application to the FCC to modify the existing tower on Lookout. It seems like the law says that if they had that FCC permit they would be good to go, but then IANAL.
I believe that's true.

Their current CP is good for Mt. Morrison; I suspect there would be a fair amount of legal wrangling required to "prove" that a CP for Morrison would be acceptable as a valid CP under the terms of the law passed last winter.

I don't see anything in the wording of the law that was passed saying "valid CP for Lookout" rather than just "valid CP" but IANAL, either.

I should add that I have an indoor DB-2 antenna (with DigitalStream 3150+), pointed SE out of a 3rd story window towards downtown, and I get 2,4,7,9,20,31,53 (and sometimes 25 or 14).
When I point it SW to try to get KRMA, it's pointed through walls, so perhaps if I had a clear view, it would work (but I'm in a condo, so I don't have that option).

BTW, I'm in Louisville as well and with my antenna pointed at RP I don't get a hint of KRMA, that's why I asked about power levels.

I pretty much have to aim the antenna directly at Morrison and accept the signal level I get from RP and Lookout as a result.

FWIW, the inverse does not work; if I aim my antenna at Lookout, I don't get squat from RP, and KRMA breaks up a lot; I suspect multipath bounce off the mountains unless aimed directly at the transmitter.

My reception of analog 20 has never been stellar either, so I'm not completely surprised.

Their engineer seemed to feel their transmitter on Morrison gave them better "coverage" than Lookout would have as well; I'm not sure how that works, as we currently see. :eek:

BTW, I'm in Louisville as well and with my antenna pointed at RP I don't get a hint of KRMA, that's why I asked about power levels.

I pretty much have to aim the antenna directly at Morrison and accept the signal level I get from RP and Lookout as a result.

FWIW, the inverse does not work; if I aim my antenna at Lookout, I don't get squat from RP, and KRMA breaks up a lot; I suspect multipath bounce off the mountains unless aimed directly at the transmitter.

My reception of analog 20 has never been stellar either, so I'm not completely surprised.

Their engineer seemed to feel their transmitter on Morrison gave them better "coverage" than Lookout would have as well; I'm not sure how that works, as we currently see. :eek:


I guess I am really surprised at that since I am in northeast Boulder by Lookout and 75'th, which isn't that far away from Louisville and get such a strong signal in the antenna sidelobe even with the antenna pointed at the RP. Have you had anyone do a contour map to see if there is some blockage issue between you and Morrison? Otherwise, it might be worth talking to the KRMA folks to see if there may be an issue with their antenna coverage. The FCC coverage pattern doesn't indicate that there would be a problem in your region.

Nothing for me on 6-1 in NE Longmont, either. On my fairly non-directional SquareShooter w/ 7775 preamp, I get 2 at 100%, 31 at 90% and 12 at 61%. 6 is a goose-egg.

Noting for me today in Fort Collins - anyone going to the CEDIA show here in Denver?

I have a CM-4228 antenna with a CM-7777 preamp pointed at RP from SW Longmont. All the RP stations come in around 70% with the preamp, but none are receivable without the preamp. KRMA-DT is now slightly stronger at 80%.

Jack

I guess I am really surprised at that since I am in northeast Boulder by Lookout and 75'th, which isn't that far away from Louisville and get such a strong signal in the antenna sidelobe even with the antenna pointed at the RP. Have you had anyone do a contour map to see if there is some blockage issue between you and Morrison? Otherwise, it might be worth talking to the KRMA folks to see if there may be an issue with their antenna coverage. The FCC coverage pattern doesn't indicate that there would be a problem in your region.

Note that all antennas are different; perhaps yours has better reception characteristics to the side than mine does.

Mine's the Radio Shack UHF standalone Yagi they used to sell that looks like the UHF section of one of their VHF/UHF antennae, the U75R.

This isn't my house, but it's the UHF antenna in this picture:

http://www.dbstalk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=7600&d=1173416056

I'm not blocked from Morrison, I just need to be pointed directly at it; once I am I get a pretty good signal from KRMA, though surprisingly enough not as good of a signal as I used to get from them from RP.

Lookout and 75th is further away from the mountains and for that matter Morrison than I am. For example, no matter where I point an antenna I can't get KBDI-DT, I'm just shadowed by the foothills from Squaw.

Unfortunately, the D* HR20 is not programed to display signal strength yet so I can do a true signal strength comparison measurement,

It's hard to find, but the HR20 does have a signal meter for OTA:

Menu=>Help& Settings=>Set Up=>Sat & Ant=>Ant Set Up=>Edit Off Air Channels=>Signal Meter

If you have the patience to get there , it actually works pretty good.

I have a CM-4228 antenna with a CM-7777 preamp pointed at RP from SW Longmont. All the RP stations come in around 70% with the preamp, but none are receivable without the preamp. KRMA-DT is now slightly stronger at 80%.

Jack
I noticed that most of you with antennas pointed at RP who can receive KRMA-DT are located significantly north of my location, which makes sense; the closer to the transmitters, the greater the directional difference between RP, Morrison and Lookout.

Now if someone in Superior is getting KRMA-DT with an antenna pointed at RP, I'll be surprised.

I know this doesn't help all of you up north, but I receive KRMA with a great signal with my antenna (4228/7777) pointed at RP. The direction is not that different for me, I dont really get any better pointing at Morrison.

Tried my antenna in the front yard which has better line of sight to Morrison, 0% :( I think I can get 2-1 and 31-1 because they are such strong signals. They basically are coming in with many houses in the path. I have a perfect line to RP down my back fence line so that's not a problem. Goodbye KRMA.

Note that all antennas are different; perhaps yours has better reception characteristics to the side than mine does.

Mine's the Radio Shack UHF standalone Yagi they used to sell that looks like the UHF section of one of their VHF/UHF antennae, the U75R.

This isn't my house, but it's the UHF antenna in this picture:

http://www.dbstalk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=7600&d=1173416056

I'm not blocked from Morrison, I just need to be pointed directly at it; once I am I get a pretty good signal from KRMA, though surprisingly enough not as good of a signal as I used to get from them from RP.

Lookout and 75th is further away from the mountains and for that matter Morrison than I am. For example, no matter where I point an antenna I can't get KBDI-DT, I'm just shadowed by the foothills from Squaw.

That's the EXACT same antenna that I am using, and from my experience the other night it really doesn't matter what direction it points to get KRMA. Mine is not even as high as the roof of the neihghbor behind me, it is at the level just above my deck at about the top of the main floor of the house. I have a second floor above it (behind the antenna) which is way above the antenna. My neighbor also has two floors, but Lookout is 'kind of ' between his and the next house. It for sure is NOT a clear view.
??????
:confused:

That's the EXACT same antenna that I am using, and from my experience the other night it really doesn't matter what direction it points to get KRMA. Mine is not even as high as the roof of the neihghbor behind me, it is at the level just above my deck at about the top of the main floor of the house. I have a second floor above it (behind the antenna) which is way above the antenna. My neighbor also has two floors, but Lookout is 'kind of ' between his and the next house. It for sure is NOT a clear view.
??????
:confused:I'm near John, but unfortunately can no longer get KRMA reliably with my antenna that's directed toward RP. So I am back to using a A/B switch between 2 antennas, one pointed at Lookout and the other at RP. I guess that's what I'll have to live with for the next 18 months.

KBDI is possible from my location, but is so weak that I would need yet another antenna optimized just for them and it has never seemed worthwhile, inasmuch as they don't broadcast any HD.

It's hard to find, but the HR20 does have a signal meter for OTA:

Menu=>Help& Settings=>Set Up=>Sat & Ant=>Ant Set Up=>Edit Off Air Channels=>Signal Meter

If you have the patience to get there , it actually works pretty good.

Thanks for the heads up, that was not at that location in the early software versions last fall, it must have been added in one of the updates. That is in the same spot as it is on the H20 which I had before the DVR. I had quit looking for it to be honest since I haven't had much in the way of problems. I checked my signal strength and it is about 90% for channel 6-1 while looking at the sidelobe of my antenna. I get 100% from 31-1 and about 80% from 2-1 by comparison. All of the RP stations are available in the main beam during this test. That high reading on 6-1 does make me wonder why it would drop off so fast by Louisville which isn't that far away, but it may be the luck of a signal skip or some such at my place too.

Edit:
Just read oxothuk's comments and he is only a few blocks away from me. It's hard to explain the difference between 90% and nothing in that short span. That means I am either incredibly 'intelligent' (we can rule that out), extremely lucky (possible, but not usually the case), or looking at some sort of strong signal reflection or skip that doesn't affect someone blocks away (unlikely but possilble). I can't think of too many other possibilities. My antenna is certainly no different or better than anyone else here. I would note though that my neighbor next door has his antenna much higher up above his second story roof and has problems with channels from the RP, so maybe I am just in a 'lucky pocket' for signal strength and at just the right height relative to the surrounding terrain. The only other possibility is something in the PSIP or in the HR20 that makes it recognize the signal more easily. I am out of guesses.

I guess I am really surprised at that since I am in northeast Boulder by Lookout and 75'th, which isn't that far away from Louisville and get such a strong signal in the antenna sidelobe even with the antenna pointed at the RP. Have you had anyone do a contour map to see if there is some blockage issue between you and Morrison? Otherwise, it might be worth talking to the KRMA folks to see if there may be an issue with their antenna coverage. The FCC coverage pattern doesn't indicate that there would be a problem in your region.

I am just now considering setting up an OTA for my HTPC and noticed you're in the same area as me.

Do you have any problems with any of the available OTA signals with that Radio Shack arial in your area?

Thanks!

I am just now considering setting up an OTA for my HTPC and noticed you're in the same area as me.

Do you have any problems with any of the available OTA signals with that Radio Shack arial in your area?

Thanks!
I don't (unless you count channel 12 DT from Squaw), but it you read back a page you will see that Oxothuk has a problem and he is only about 5 blocks away from me, so it may really be another 'game of inches' in what you are able to get.

By the way , the final DTV channel assignments (http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/FCC-07-138A2.pdf) are out from the FCC.

Here's how things play out for the post-transition Front Range world:

NTSC ATSC
=============
2 34
4 35
6 18
7 7
9 9
12 13
14 15
20 19
22 21
25 29
31 32
41 40
50 51
53 46
59 43
When I followed the link and looked at the Appendix B document I noticed something interesting, in light of the KRMA 6-1 discussions. If you look at the entry for 6/18, the Latitude is 394349 (39.73028) and the Longitude is 1051500 (-105.25). The values in () are in decimal degrees, which is what Google Maps wants. Based on Google Maps, that location sure seems to be on Lookout Mountain about a half mile west of Cedar Lake. Actually, that is the same as the listing for the licensed channel 6 analog transmitter on the FCC site.

If these are the final frequency assignments, wouldn't one expect them to also be the final transmitter locations?
Could the Mt. Morrison transmitter only be temporary and/or to confuse the (S)care people?

Posted by kenavs:
When I followed the link and looked at the Appendix B document I noticed something interesting, in light of the KRMA 6-1 discussions. If you look at the entry for 6/18, the Latitude is 394349 (39.73028) and the Longitude is 1051500 (-105.25). The values in () are in decimal degrees, which is what Google Maps wants. Based on Google Maps, that location sure seems to be on Lookout Mountain about a half mile west of Cedar Lake. Actually, that is the same as the listing for the licensed channel 6 analog transmitter on the FCC site.

To express what you're saying slightly differently, the current FCC database lists KRMA's transmitter location at Lat 39 40 17, Long 105 13 06. The Third Round Channel Assignments' document you refer to, Attachment B, shows the transmitter location at Lat 39 43 49, Long 105 15 00, which appears to be a little more north and west. Is the FCC's current database Morrison and the latest info - Attach B - Lookout?

The Titan TV folks are just plain ignorant and incompetent. I've emailed them 3-4 times over the past year regarding the KKTU/KDEV listing. No replies, no corrections.

Just got the weekly newsletter from PBS. It contained the following information. Since it is an email, I cannot provide a link (unless I find that the email is posted on the website too).
From todays issue of Rocky Mountain PBS e-news

KRMA-DT EXPANDS ITS REACH WITH NEW TOWER
On August 2, Rocky Mountain PBS' KRMA-DT expanded its reach throughout the Front Range by replacing its digital transmitter on downtown Denver's Republic Plaza with a new digital transmitter on Mt. Morrison. With this new high-power transmitter, KRMA-DT increases its reach from 10-15% of the KRMA-TV (analog channel 6) viewing area to 95% of the area. Viewers seeking KRMA-DT over the air should now point their transmitters toward Mt. Morrison instead of downtown Denver. KRMA-DT is available at channel 6-1. Spanish-speaking Front Range viewers can also tune into V-me on channel 6-2.

So follow their instructions and point your "transmitters" toward Mt. Morrison. Unfortunately for me, all I have is a receiver and I can't really point it as it is in my equipment rack, so I may not have future access to their services. Those of you with "transmitters" should have better luck. I wonder if they possibly meant "antenna"???
:rolleyes:

I noticed that most of you with antennas pointed at RP who can receive KRMA-DT are located significantly north of my location, which makes sense; the closer to the transmitters, the greater the directional difference between RP, Morrison and Lookout.

Now if someone in Superior is getting KRMA-DT with an antenna pointed at RP, I'll be surprised.I'm SE of you in the SW corner of Lafayette, in the low-lying area just to the NW of the intersection of Hwy 287 and the NW Parkway (Dillon Rd) and S of Hwy 42. Surprisingly I still get KRMA-DT 6-1 just fine with my 40" UHF Yagi (had the RS one but changed to a more robust model from Winegard) pointed at RP. I think the ridge between here and Broomfield is 200-300' high. The antenna is only about 10-12' above ground level. Receiver is DirecTV HR10-250. I've noticed though that 4-1, 7-1 and 9-1 break up more often recently than during the past 2 years. Probably time to re-aim the thing as we get brutal winds across the back of our house, probably due to the open space.

I think the keys are:

1) JMartinko is north of me, so Morrison and Lookout are less separated then they are for me.

2) The RS Yagi is meant to be very directional so it has a strong null at 90 degrees of axis, pretty much where Morrison falls for me.

I think that if I changed to something like a Channel Master 4221 I'd be able to pick up RP, KRMA and Lookout just fine, but to be perfectly honest, I really don't care enough about "Create" to be bothered.

At least in theory, by late next year I may no longer need an antenna pointed at RP anyway, and I will likely regain KRMA-DT when I reaim directly at Lookout.

Frankly the only thing I'll miss is Ask This Old House; I'd rather keep as strong a signal from 4-1, 7-1 and 9-1 for as long as possible.

I tried KRMA 6-1 with my Dish 811 last night. I got a lock, but a signal strength was 60 to 62 and I had a lot of breakups. I get KWGN-DT and KDVR-DT with signal strength in the 80s; same for the RP stations. Apparently, full power for KRMA-DT provided enough signal for me to finally see it and lock it, but I must be getting a lot of signal blockage compared to the LOM transmissions. I'm near 68th and Sims in Arvada.

I'm currently limited to my AntennasDirect 91XG, pre-amped antenna in my attic, which is pointed just west of RP (straight at KWHD, CastleRock). My LOM antenna is currently down (I had the attic re-insulated and I had to move my UHF/VHF combo out for the work; not anxious to climb back up there until cooler weather), so I can't check to see what kind of signal I'd get pointing at LOM to get KRMA-DT. However, as kucharsk noted, this is no great loss.

but to be perfectly honest, I really don't care enough about "Create" to be bothered.That's about where I am too. Since they replaced the best part of their HD schedule with "Create" and diluted the bit-rate of the rest with V-me, I'm finding it a lot harder to justify why I should give them a pledge.

Just wanted to post that I cannot receive KRMA west of Morrison. Not a whiff of a signal. It has to be a directional antenna as I can just about see the tower from my place.

Just wanted to post that I cannot receive KRMA west of Morrison. Not a whiff of a signal. It has to be a directional antenna as I can just about see the tower from my place.

Ernie,

Is your antenna pointed towards it? Could it even be overloading your tuner? I mean, "full power digital TV" and "Denver" in the same sentence has been an unknown concept until recently. :D

Just wanted to post that I cannot receive KRMA west of Morrison. Not a whiff of a signal. It has to be a directional antenna as I can just about see the tower from my place.

Certainly appears to be very directional on the FCC Plot (http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/polarplot?temp=76810&rotate=0.00&p0=0.550&p10=0.630&p20=0.700&p30=0.765&p40=0.830&p50=0.900&p60=0.950&p70=0.980&p80=1.000&p90=0.980&p100=0.950&p110=0.900&p120=0.830&p130=0.765&p140=0.700&p150=0.630&p160=0.550&p170=0.490&p180=0.420&p190=0.350&p200=0.280&p210=0.200&p220=0.130&p230=0.080&p240=0.080&p250=0.090&p260=0.100&p270=0.090&p280=0.080&p290=0.080&p300=0.130&p310=0.200&p320=0.280&p330=0.350&p340=0.420&p350=0.490&p360=0.550&)

Full info can be found HERE. (http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?list=0&facid=14040) New Morrison tower is at the bottom (the one with 115 kW ERP.) That's still quite a bit weaker than KDVR and KWGN, which explains why it's proving tougher to receive.

*STILL* no full-power digital TV in Denver!

In Wheat Ridge, I continued to see 31-1 from the backside of my yagi, but no trace of 6-1. I will attempt to find it with a silver sensor this weekend. If I turn my yagi from downtown to Morrison, I lose my backup for the nets. Grrrrr!

Just wanted to post that I cannot receive KRMA west of Morrison. Not a whiff of a signal. It has to be a directional antenna as I can just about see the tower from my place.

Maybe KRMA has really worked hard to eliminate any radiation in the area of the hills surrounding and west of their new antenna so they don't antagonize the neighbors who have obviously expressed the desire NOT to have any radiation on their homes (i.e. (S)CARE).
:D

Unfortunately you may have gotten lumped in with them, although if true, you have got to give KRMA credit for doing their best to accommodate the folks around the Lookout/Morrison area.

I tried a different receiver last night but still couldn't lock KRMA-DT 18 (6-1/2) from Fort Collins. I get very good reception of analog 20 and analog 59 which I believe are both on Mt. Morrison.

I hope something is wrong with the KRMA-DT transmission. It is strange that when KBDI-DT first went on the air, they were the strongest digital channel for me. Then, about a year later, something changed and I had to aim the antenna (I have a rotator) absolutely perfectly to get it without breakups. It has been that way ever since. What changed? I have no idea. I just hope something changes in the positive direction for KRMA-DT. Otherwise, Ft. Collins (and probably Loveland/Greeley) will be in a PBS "white area." That's a whole lot of people.

Mark

Maybe KRMA has really worked hard to eliminate any radiation in the area of the hills surrounding and west of their new antenna so they don't antagonize the neighbors who have obviously expressed the desire NOT to have any radiation on their homes (i.e. (S)CARE).
:D

Unfortunately you may have gotten lumped in with them, although if true, you have got to give KRMA credit for doing their best to accommodate the folks around the Lookout/Morrison area.
Here's a limited area high resolution Google Earth coverage map for KRMA-DT on Mt. Morrison: KRMA-DT_local_hires.kmz.zip (http://home.comcast.net/~andy.s.lee/public/KRMA-DT_local_hires.kmz.zip)

The antenna pattern KRMA has on file with the FCC might not be an accurate representation of their actual current pattern, but I think it's close enough that this coverage map should still be a reasonable match for their actual coverage.

A major limitation in their coverage area is their antenna height. It is lower than all the other transmitters on that tower, so the mountain itself is causing a fair amount of signal blockage in certain directions. Coverage to the west of Morrison is limited because of this as well.

Best regards,
Andy

Thanks Andy.
According to that map, I'm in a light green area, which is as good as it gets in Louisville or Lafayette. But as mentioned earlier, I can now only get an intermittent KRMA signal with my indoor antenna. (Everything else comes in great, except 12 of course).

Based on the comments so far, they are pretty much all negative. Anyone getting KRMA who couldn't get it before?
Should we start a petition to move it back to RP ? Or will they keep this location regardless, due to their license/permit situation?


[QUOTE=andy.s.lee]Here's a limited area high resolution Google Earth coverage map for KRMA-DT on Mt. Morrison: KRMA-DT_local_hires.kmz.zip (http://home.comcast.net/~andy.s.lee/public/KRMA-DT_local_hires.kmz.zip)

FWIW: I live in Lafayette at the corner of 95th and Arapahoe.

I have a RS DBT on the shelf next to my TV. It points at RP. With it
I get 2-1,2-2,4-1,7-1,9-1,9-2,14-1,20-1, and 53-1 quite reliably.
I get KDVR (22-1 and 31-1 sometimes with this antenna).
I do get 25-1 with a reasonable signal, but no sound.
I get the 40-1 through 40-16, but have only seen content on 40-16.
I used to get 6-1 (KRMA-DT) as well, but not a sniff anymore.

I have an AB Switch to my other antenna. this is a combo Yagi in the rafters over my garage. It is pointed somewhat towards Lookout. I get all of the analog stations realiably. Noteably, 20 comes in great. I also get KDBI reasonably well.

So when I switch my ATSC receiver to the Yagi with the switch,
I get 2-1,2-2,14-1, and 31-1 reliably.
I get 22-1 sometimes.
I do get 25-1 with a reasonable signal, but no sound.
I get the 40-1 through 40-16, but have only seen content on 40-16.

I do not get KRMA (6-1).

Based on this, I think the Morrison antenna is low enough on the mtn (being on the ice bridge) that Louisville and my part of Lafayette must be blocked somewhat. This is the same antenna that displays a pristine analog 20, but I don't get a sniff of KRMA.

I can't get KDBI-DT here either, so I'm pretty much in a digital PBS black-hole. I wouldn't be surprised to stay that way after the analog shutoff. Actually, I notice in the allotment post, that it showed 12 going to 13. So if they (KDBI) do that and just use their old equipment, I may be able to get KDBI-13 after the transition. But unless something changes, KRMA is no longer available to me.

I tried my LG LST-4200A receiver and I don't get enough signal from KRMA-DT to even lock, which is worse than my Dish 811. I get 2-1 and 31-1 very strong on both receivers.

With all of the talk about KRMA, and it being a slow day, I gave it a try from here in WP. :p I grabbed my 4228 that's sitting on a chair facing South through the glass doors of my luxury townhome :rolleyes: and hauled it upstairs. Using the same chair, I had to add a box and on top of that a monitor stand to get the 4228 high enough so that it was higher than the bottom of the window. I hooked up my CM 7775 and scanned.

I got all 3 KBDI digital stations and analog KDVR. I also picked up KRDO-DT(ABC) through the back of the antenna from the Springs. But, nope, no KRMA :eek:.

Oh Well!
....jc

Perhaps some hope for KRMA lies in an increase in power. Right now, I believe they are at 115 kW, which is pretty low and does not replicate their analog coverage, which I believe they are required to do. The 115 kW is also just their construction permit power. They are not fully licensed yet. Appendix B from the Final Channel Allotment just issued by the FCC shows them to be at 1 mW when fully licensed.

For those in Louisville, try tuning for Morrison rather than assuming a Lookout antenna is "good enough."

I can't get KRMA at present with an antenna pointed at Lookout or RP, but when aimed directly at Morrison I can get KRMA and get good signal levels for Lookout and fair levels from RP. (No breakups from RP, but lower strength numbers than if aimed directly at RP.)

For those in Louisville, try tuning for Morrison rather than assuming a Lookout antenna is "good enough."

I can't get KRMA at present with an antenna pointed at Lookout or RP, but when aimed directly at Morrison I can get KRMA and get good signal levels Lookout and fair levels from RP. (No breakups from RP, but lower strength numbers than if aimed directly at RP.)
I have been getting KRMA, RP and Lookout since Tuesday when I did some playing with my antennas.

I am in Louisville, west side of Tamarisk near Washington. My 2 story sits reasonably high, but my view to the south, across the valley, is a ridge at similar height filled with large 2 story homes.

According to AntennaWeb, from my house.
Analog 20 (Mt Morrison?) 179deg - 21.8mi
Analog 9 (Lookout) 184deg - 18.0mi
Digital 4-1 (Republic Plaza) 142deg - 18.7mi
Digital & Analog 12 (Squaw Mt) 211deg -27.7mi
FYI: I told AntennaWeb my antenna was 2000 feet up, so it would list 12 digital.

I have a VHF/UHF/FM combo antenna fixed to an attic rafter, that points almost due south. I think it is a Radio Shack with a suburban rating. I also have a Radio Shack U-75R UHF antenna mounted on a T-hinge in the attic, that I can swing about 30 degrees either side of the fixed combo antenna.
Until Tuesday I had the combo connected to the VHF input of my CM7777 pre-amp and the U-75R connected to the UHF input . I was struggling to get everything. I switched the pre-amp to single input mode, and fed the 2 antennas thru matching cables into a cheap spitter used backwards as a combiner and fed the combined signal into the pre-amp UHF/VHF input. With the UHF antenna pointed a few degrees east of the fixed combo(it had been about 30 degrees east of it), I am getting satisfactory results.
All the RP stations 4-1, 7-1, 9-1, 9-2 are strong enough for solid locks on all 4 of my tuners (A Philips 42PF7320 TV, A Philips DVDR3575H recorder, and (2)Vizio VX32L TVs). There are 1 to 3 splitters between the pre-amp and the tuners and 35 to 100 feet of cable)
I get a solid lock on 6-1.
I also get very solid 2-1, 2-2, 20-1, 31-1, 53-1
I would rate 59 as quite good, 12 as OK, and 6 and 39 as poor.
2 of my tuners are now getting solid locks on 12-1, 12-2, 12-3. The other 2 tuners show a lot of breakup.
Analog 4, 7, 9, 20, and 31 are fine, but I have them skipped (except for my VCRs which I don't use much anymore) since I always watch the digital versions.
I do get a number of other stations fine, but they are skipped, since I never watch them.
I just thought I would share this, since there seem to be several of us in Louisville. Obviously, YMMV.

As I said, I too can get KRMA, the RP stations and Lookout (everything but KBDI - I'm further west, around South Boulder Road and Washington, so I'm shadowed from Squaw.)

The issue is when signal levels drop due to atmospheric or weather conditions I wouldn't want to risk pixelation on CSI, Heroes, How I Met Your Mother, Las Vegas, Jericho or Desperate Housewives, so I'll leave my antenna pointed directly at RP for the 10% or so higher signal levels I get that way…

People posting about their reception issues with the new KRMA transmitter setup should also post their receiver type. It may help us identify if the reception issues might be related more to receiver type than location. I have mentioned before, I am currently using the D* HR20 for my OTA reception and getting things from KRMA with ease.

I tried two receivers:
Echostar 6000 w/8VSB
OnAir GT

As I said, I too can get KRMA, the RP stations and Lookout (everything but KBDI - I'm further west, around South Boulder Road and Washington, so I'm shadowed from Squaw.)

The issue is when signal levels drop due to atmospheric or weather conditions I wouldn't want to risk pixelation on CSI, Heroes, How I Met Your Mother, Las Vegas, Jericho or Desperate Housewives, so I'll leave my antenna pointed directly at RP for the 10% or so higher signal levels I get that way…
I recognize your points. For me, so far, I am getting good enough RP reception that I will take the risk so I can watch a little extra, This Old House, Ask This Old House, and New Yankee Workshop.

I do have a question since you are so close to me. How is your analog KRMA/6 reception. Mine has been poor for some time. On 3 of my tuners it is watchable, but noisy. The tuner in my DVDR3575H, which seems to have my best digital reception capability, but weakest analog, really struggles with analog 6.

Here's a reference to a brief description of the KRMA DTV transmit antenna:

http://www.rftechnologies.net/news.html

--- CHAS

People posting about their reception issues with the new KRMA transmitter setup should also post their receiver type. It may help us identify if the reception issues might be related more to receiver type than location. I have mentioned before, I am currently using the D* HR20 for my OTA reception and getting things from KRMA with ease.

Thanks guys for all the plots and other info.

I have an HR20 and 2 H20-600s here in NE Lonmont, no reception of 6-1 on any of them. Based on the reports here, and the apparent expectations of KRMA both in their announcement and coverage plots to the FCC, it would appear that something is wrong with the antenna or the manner in which it was installed. I am guessing they are aware of the performance problems, but sent them a kind email anyway in case they weren't aware of the reception issues to the north. I was kind'da hoping the low-power reception challenge would be over now with regards to mountain-site towers (with the exception of a minority of houses that are in RF shadows or fringe areas).

I have an HR20 and 2 H20-600s here in NE Lonmont, no reception of 6-1 on any of them. ...

FYI, in Southern Longmont, I get 6-1 with no problems at all. I've got a CM4228 about 60 ft off the ground, pointed at RP, and a large VHF/UHF antenna about 35 ft off the ground pointed toward lookout. Both antennas are slightly amplified with cheap amps and then combined and sent to the TVs. Channel 6-1 comes in strong on both my Toshiba LCD TV, and on my LG CRT TV with no breakups. I think both TVs have LG's 4th Gen tuner in them. (Or was it 3rd gen....it's the generation that really fixed up the multipath problems).

I had to put the CM4228 60 feet in the air in order to get RP stations, and I still get lots of breakups on 7-1. I'm in a bit of a valley, so it has always been a challenge to get the RP stations. I'm just surprised that I can get 6-1 with no effort while Northern Longmont seems to have problems, For RP stations, it seems to be the other way around.

B.J.

I do have a question since you are so close to me. How is your analog KRMA/6 reception. Mine has been poor for some time. On 3 of my tuners it is watchable, but noisy. The tuner in my DVDR3575H, which seems to have my best digital reception capability, but weakest analog, really struggles with analog 6.
Pretty fair. Watchable, and certainly not as bad as KBDI, which is rotten no matter what I do, but not as good as the "majors."

For JMartinko, I get zero signal from KRMA-DT on:

* TiVO Series 3 HD DVR
* Sony KDL-32XBR4 HDTV
* CoShip Integra 912 ATSC/DVB satellite receiver

I really think KRMA-DT issues are a function of a higher directional angle between RP, Morrison and Lookout the further south you go in combination with the look angle of various antennas, which explains why the folks in Longmont and JMartinko aren't seeing a problem.

Pretty fair. Watchable, and certainly not as bad as KBDI, which is rotten no matter what I do, but not as good as the "majors."

For JMartinko, I get zero signal from KRMA-DT on:

* TiVO Series 3 HD DVR
* Sony KDL-32XBR4 HDTV
* CoShip Integra 912 ATSC/DVB satellite receiver

I really think KRMA-DT issues are a function of a higher directional angle between RP, Morrison and Lookout the further south you go in combination with the look angle of various antennas, which explains why the folks in Longmont and JMartinko aren't seeing a problem.

Based just upon your use of the three receivers, it sure sounds like a KRMA coverage problem. Given the reports we have read here in the forum, there doesn't seem to be any correlation between the lack of reception and a particular receiver. It seems pretty much like a KRMA coverage issue, possibly due to some blockage due to the lower height of the antenna. I am getting a slightly stronger signal here at my location from KRMA in the sidelobe of my antenna than even the signal from 31-1, and yet a few blocks and miles away, people can't seem to get a signal at all even when pointing their antenna in the general direction of Morrison. There can't be that big of a difference in our antenna configurations.

I would recommend that those of you with reception issues make sure you contact KRMA (email or phone) and let them know about their coverage issues if you haven't done so already. They can't work on or fix a problem they don't know about.

According to Steve Cox @ KCNC Ch4, all 4 preseason Bronco games are in HD.
Aug 13 @ San Fran............Espn HD
Aug 18 @ Dallas.................Ch 4 HD
Aug 25 Cleveland................Ch 4 HD
Aug 30 Arizona...................Ch 4 HD

Sorry I have not read this as much as I should have--please bring me up to date on the big tower construction--as how much has been done--completion date, etc.
Repairing TVs keeps us very busy--we tell all to buy an HD TV.
thanks

Hugh
Main TV
Longmont, CO

Sorry I have not read this as much as I should have--please bring me up to date on the big tower construction--as how much has been done--completion date, etc.
Repairing TVs keeps us very busy--we tell all to buy an HD TV.
thanks

Hugh
Main TV
Longmont, CO

The LCG has finally started updating their web page with construction progress and pictures. Their site is about as good as any unless someone here gets up there with their camera.

LCG Web Page with HDTV updates (http://www.hdtvcolorado.com/)

Based just upon your use of the three receivers, it sure sounds like a KRMA coverage problem. Given the reports we have read here in the forum, there doesn't seem to be any correlation between the lack of reception and a particular receiver. It seems pretty much like a KRMA coverage issue, possibly due to some blockage due to the lower height of the antenna. I am getting a slightly stronger signal here at my location from KRMA in the sidelobe of my antenna than even the signal from 31-1, and yet a few blocks and miles away, people can't seem to get a signal at all even when pointing their antenna in the general direction of Morrison. There can't be that big of a difference in our antenna configurations.

I would recommend that those of you with reception issues make sure you contact KRMA (email or phone) and let them know about their coverage issues if you haven't done so already. They can't work on or fix a problem they don't know about.

Hey gang,

Sorry to hear about the KRMA troubles. For the record, any station on channels 2-13, broadcasting digitally over 300 watts, is considered a full-powered station. Anything over 15 kw on UHF is also full power. *Maximum* power possible is 1 million watts on UHF, so long as:

They don't interfere with anyone else on analog or digital.
They want to do it.

I can tell you that on flat land, 15.1 kw easily goes 60 miles with an outdoor antenna at 1500' above ground level, with a high-powered analog interference
source 80 miles away.

I can tell you that if you are using the Radio Shack VU-90/120*/160*/190 series (*=discontinued), it is notorious for poor UHF reception, specifically how it handles reflected signals. I've put one in an attic, and it has struggled 40 miles out to pick up a high-powered signal from a 1400' transmitter on channel 45. And that because of multipath in the attic that the antenna couldn't reduce.

One great way to figure out if it's a problem with multipath is attempting to get the signal with a yagi antenna (a "V" shaped reflector with a "rod" coming out of the center to direct the signal towards the dipole), or a high-gain directional antenna such as the ChannelMaster 4228. If you can get KRMA with this antenna, it's likely a multipath problem. If you are still getting no signal, it must be either due to very weak signal or extreme multipath. You need a scope to figure out if that was the case.

But in any event, 115 kw should go out far from their current height, if you are in one of the lobes. But what if you aren't (and many of you fall in this category)? Let's look at that:

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?list=0&facid=14040

Look at the entry marked "Modification of Construction Permit" with 115 kw (the FCC needs to update it to show that it is licensed). If you are due north of the tower (0 degrees), or south-southeast of it (160 degrees), you are getting .55(^2) possible power, or .3025, or 30.25% of maximum. So:

115,000 watts x .55(^2) = 34,787.5 watts = roughly 34.8 kw

That's a LOT less than 115 kw. And if you lived close to RP, you probably got more juice from there. If you are northeast of the tower, say 30 degrees, or southeast, at 130 degrees, the factor is .765 (^2).

115,000 watts x .765(^2)= 67,300 watts = 67.3 kw

That's better, but it's not close to 115 kw.

Knowing that the VU-90 from Radio Shack doesn't pick up UHF all that well and is subject to multipath, I'd be guessing at this point, given from what you folks are saying, that a bigger antenna is needed to pick it up. Unless, of course, they are having problems. I'd still call them and complain. A lot of installations have glitches that need to be cleaned up, even the best of them. Just my $.02.

Gilbert,

Thanks for the info. What we are saying is that if they are licensed for 1 million watts and are currently only broadcasting at 1/8 or less of that power, then in our discussion, they are not considered 'full power' yet. And with our terrain issues, we all need them to be at full power.

Posted by sebenste:
Look at the entry marked "Modification of Construction Permit" with 115 kw (the FCC needs to update it to show that it is licensed).

Posted by santellavision:
What we are saying is that if they are licensed for 1 million watts and are currently only broadcasting at 1/8 or less of that power, then in our discussion, they are not considered 'full power' yet.

KRMA's FCC data base info shows the 115 kW as a construction permit. Appendix B to the Seventh Report and Order for the digital transition shows KRMA at 1000 kW, which was issued August 6. So it looks like the 115 kW is temporary and 1 mW will be the final power. That may not help those blocked by terrain, but it will probably increase chances of reception up north, especially Ft. Collins.

KRMA's FCC data base info shows the 115 kW as a construction permit. Appendix B to the Seventh Report and Order for the digital transition shows KRMA at 1000 kW, which was issued August 6. So it looks like the 115 kW is temporary and 1 mW will be the final power. That may not help those blocked by terrain, but it will probably increase chances of reception up north, especially Ft. Collins.
Also, if you look at the longitude and latitude entries for for KRMA in Appendix B, the location is not on Mt Morrison. To me, the Appendix B entry seems to put the transmitter on Lookout Mountain. Also the HAAT entry is similar to the entries for the LCG transmitters, unlike the very close to the ground transmitter at the Mt Morrison site. Hopefully, that will be the real transmitter location and configuration. If the Appendix B entry is correct, I would expect the coverage area to be significantly improved over the present one.

Gilbert,

Thanks for the info. What we are saying is that if they are licensed for 1 million watts and are currently only broadcasting at 1/8 or less of that power, then in our discussion, they are not considered 'full power' yet. And with our terrain issues, we all need them to be at full power.

Hey Ernie et al,

OK, I am tracking with you. Yep, KRMA is supposed to go to 1 mw on Lookout after February 2009. That's a (very) rare case of stations getting more power
after 2009 in their post-analog shutdown allocation. Usually it is the same, or less.

But in this market...well you know. :(

Good to see NBC fixed their pixelation issues on Sun night football. :rolleyes:

I am getting a slightly stronger signal here at my location from KRMA in the sidelobe of my antenna than even the signal from 31-1, and yet a few blocks and miles away, people can't seem to get a signal at all even when pointing their antenna in the general direction of Morrison.

Just to clarify - I don't get a whiff of KRMA with my antenna pointed at RP. If I point even an indoor antenna in the direction of Morrison they come in just fine.

Given the reception pattern diagrams I've been able to find for the RS UHF antenna, they do have a nice null in their sidelobe reception pretty much where Morrison is for me, which explains why it can pick up RP and Lookout just fine but not Morrison.

Just to clarify - I don't get a whiff of KRMA with my antenna pointed at RP. If I point even an indoor antenna in the direction of Morrison they come in just fine.

Given the reception pattern diagrams I've been able to find for the RS UHF antenna, they do have a nice null in their sidelobe reception pretty much where Morrison is for me, which explains why it can pick up RP and Lookout just fine but not Morrison.
It's been a while since I looked at the pattern from my antenna, but I am pretty sure that I have a sidelobe that is pointing pretty much toward Lookout/Morrison from where my antenna is pointing. It is probable from the angles that Morrison is more likely closer to the peak of the sidelobe than Lookout would be from here. Since both channels come in well above 85-90% most of the time, I really don't care which is stronger as long as I can get them without rotating the antenna. Just lucky I seem to be in a 'sweet spot'.

It is interesting to see that the report cited by kenavs and milehighmike appears to imply that KRMA-DT will eventually be located on Lookout. I think we can all thank Congress for that move back to Lookout.

Also, if you look at the longitude and latitude entries for for KRMA in Appendix B, the location is not on Mt Morrison. To me, the Appendix B entry seems to put the transmitter on Lookout Mountain. Also the HAAT entry is similar to the entries for the LCG transmitters, unlike the very close to the ground transmitter at the Mt Morrison site. Hopefully, that will be the real transmitter location and configuration. If the Appendix B entry is correct, I would expect the coverage area to be significantly improved over the present one.

Was KRMA part of the original LCG? Perhaps the FCC data wasn't updated after they felt 'cold feet' about diminished prospects of ever being allowed on Lookout and moved on to Morrison.

Chalk up one small victory for sCare.

--- CHAS

Posted by HIPAR:
Was KRMA part of the original LCG? Perhaps the FCC data wasn't updated after they felt 'cold feet' about diminished prospects of ever being allowed on Lookout and moved on to Morrison. Chalk up one small victory for sCare.

I think any station, now or anytime in the future, that can secure an FCC permit for Lookout Mtn can build there just as the LCG group is doing now. So I don't think sCARE had any victory.

And we wouldn't want to give sCARE credit for anything, anyway. ;)

Posted by HIPAR:


I think any station, now or anytime in the future, that can secure an FCC permit for Lookout Mtn can build there just as the LCG group is doing now. So I don't think sCARE had any victory.

And we wouldn't want to give sCARE credit for anything, anyway. ;)
KRMA obviously planned to move to Morrison, but their building permit was rejected thanks to (S)CARE. Since their existing analog tower is on Lookout, they could, according to the congressional bill, simply get a permit from the FCC and expand that facility (within certain restrictions in the bill) to accommodate their ATSC signal. From the information at the FCC and other stories, its seems that that is what they intend to do. Yes they were originally part of the LCG, actually James Morgese was the original head of the LCG, but they dropped out to move to Morrison. Someone mentioned earlier that they were looking into possibly re-joining the LCG although I don't know how realistic that is. I am not sure the remaining LCG members would agree to that. I would not discount the FCC filing that gives the co-ordinates as Lookout as being incorrect. To me, it makes the most sense at this point. YMMV.

KRMA obviously planned to move to Morrison, but their building permit was rejected thanks to (S)CARE. Since their existing analog tower is on Lookout, they could, according to the congressional bill, simply get a permit from the FCC and expand that facility (within certain restrictions in the bill) to accommodate their ATSC signal. From the information at the FCC and other stories, its seems that that is what they intend to do. Yes they were originally part of the LCG, actually James Morgese was the original head of the LCG, but they dropped out to move to Morrison. Someone mentioned earlier that they were looking into possibly re-joining the LCG although I don't know how realistic that is. I am not sure the remaining LCG members would agree to that. I would not discount the FCC filing that gives the co-ordinates as Lookout as being incorrect. To me, it makes the most sense at this point. YMMV.
Consistent with your speculation, the Appendix B entry for KRMA has exactly the same HAAT, Latitude, and Longitude entries as their Licensed analog transmitter currently in use on Lookout Mountain.

Does anyone want to speculate about the disposition of KRMA tower on Lookout after their analog operation there is terminated? If they aren't going to use it will Jeffco require them to demolish it?

Have they retained their facilities at RP?

Might they plan to refurbish the Lookout tower while transmitting from Morrison and then use RP as a backup site while moving back to Lookout? From an engineering viewpoint this is a rather clumsy, but not unworkable, approach to the final DTV transition.

As a public supported station, KRMA cannot afford to loose over-the-air viewers (pledges) due to coverage problems.

--- CHAS

Does anyone want to speculate about the disposition of KRMA tower on Lookout after their analog operation there is terminated? If they aren't going to use it will Jeffco require them to demolish it?

Have they retained their facilities at RP?

Might they plan to refurbish the Lookout tower while transmitting from Morrison and then use RP as a backup site while moving back to Lookout? From an engineering viewpoint this is a rather clumsy, but not unworkable, approach to the final DTV transition.

As a public supported station, KRMA cannot afford to loose over-the-air viewers (pledges) due to coverage problems.

--- CHAS
I have no knowledge what they plan to do, but my speculation would be that they will transmit analog from Lookout and digital from Morrison until the cutover date. Hopefully, they will then refit the Lookout tower for digital, and bring it online ASAP.

I am in aurora using ota hd. I get all hd channels except channel 4. I can even get channel 4 analog. From what I can tell, channel 4 and 7 are broadcast from the same location.

Any help ??

I am using the atsc tuner built into my mitsubishi wd65734. I am in aurora off bukley and mexico on top of the hill and have clear line of sight to downtown and lookout mountain. My antenna is rated as medium range directional and I can get channels from wyoming and colorado springs.

I also have an amp on the line, the run to the antenna is about 100 feet. The amp is turned all the way down so its really just cleaning the signal (trapping fm).

Have you tried rotating your antenna? I know in my case I have to rotate my antenna about 5 degrees from the ideal position for 7 and 9 to receive 4 even though they all broadcast from the same location (Republic plaza) 4 is the hardest to receive due to the higher frequency.

I have no knowledge what they plan to do, but my speculation would be that they will transmit analog from Lookout and digital from Morrison until the cutover date. Hopefully, they will then refit the Lookout tower for digital, and bring it online ASAP.

I addressed KRMA's Lookout and Morrison plans in my post from last week (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=11239594&&#post11239594") after a conversation with their chief broadcast engineer.

In summary, they plan on being on Morrison at least through the analog cutoff. When that occurs they want to see if they will be allowed to put their transmitter on what is currently the tower for 20's analog signal, and he said they might look into whether there will be space for them on the LCG tower, but it will be "at least three years."

They're going to maintain their RP equipment for now, and were supposed to be transmitting from RP this week as they finished a few things up at Morrison; no idea if they ever did that work. Their signal is actually going to RP and from there to Morrison via microwave right now.

They said JeffCo won't let them do anything but emergency maintenance to their Lookout tower, so it wont be usable after the cutover anyway. (If I were them I'd leave it up as a monument to sCARE, Golden and JeffCo.)

Note that KRMA's construction permit was for Morrison, not Lookout, so they couldn't have put a transmitter up on their current tower anyway; LCG had a CP for Lookout.

Remember also that JeffCo has said that they don't consider the federal law a preemption at all and when Judge Jackson lifted the injunction he said all JeffCo zoning regs and such still apply as approved. Remember also that Golden still considers LCG to be building without a permit, as they've never issued a building permit for the new tower.

Given all that, if KRMA wanted to put their transmitter on their existing tower now, they'd have to start at square one with Golden and the JeffCo commissioners. It's easier to use the ice bridge on Morrison (which didn't require them to build a new tower on Morrison, which is what they were denied before) and see if LCG has room for them and if they can get approved to place their transmitter on LCG's tower later.

Have you tried rotating your antenna? I know in my case I have to rotate my antenna about 5 degrees from the ideal position for 7 and 9 to receive 4 even though they all broadcast from the same location (Republic plaza) 4 is the hardest to receive due to the higher frequency.

Yep, it's actually on a rotator. The frustrating part is my tv has to "find" the channel before I can tune to it (I think). I have tried turning to the raw (35) channel but I am wondering if the tv wont show it until it finds it.

Right now I have one of the big radio shack antennas on my roof. I am thinking about changing over to one of the flat panel terks or combining my current antenna with it.

I addressed KRMA's Lookout and Morrison plans in my post from last week (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=11239594&&#post11239594") after a conversation with their chief broadcast engineer.

...............................They said JeffCo won't let them do anything but emergency maintenance to their Lookout tower, so it wont be usable after the cutover anyway. (If I were them I'd leave it up as a monument to sCARE, Golden and JeffCo.)

Note that KRMA's construction permit was for Morrison, not Lookout, so they couldn't have put a transmitter up on their current tower anyway; LCG had a CP for Lookout.

Remember also that JeffCo has said that they don't consider the federal law a preemption at all and when Judge Jackson lifted the injunction he said all JeffCo zoning regs and such still apply as approved. Remember also that Golden still considers LCG to be building without a permit, as they've never issued a building permit for the new tower..................

Thanks for the clarification. Some of the story (not yours, the overall story) still doesn't make sense. Golden still considers the LCG operating without a permit, and I happen to agree, I don't think they need one. In a similar fashion, I think the Federal law also would allow KRMA to work on their Lookout tower without a local permit or approval from the Jeffco commissioners. The law states:

Notwithstanding any applicable State or local land use or condemnation laws or regulations, and subject to all applicable Federal laws and regulations, any person that holds an approved Federal Communications Commission permit to construct or install either a digital television broadcast station antenna or tower, or both, located on Lookout Mountain in Jefferson County in the State of Colorado, may
at such location, construct, install, use, modify, replace, repair, or consolidate
such antenna or tower, or both, and all accompanying facilities and services
associated with such digital television broadcasts, if such antenna or tower is of
the same height or lower than the tallest existing analog broadcast antenna or
tower at such location.

Remember, even on the (S)CARE page they quote
On March 12th, all 3 Jefferson County Commissioners, stating
that they felt the Act of Congress gave them no other
alternative, voted to approve the Lake Cedar Group 2003
Official Development Plan approved and recorded in 2003 by
the previous commissioners.

I think the law is pretty clear that even if Jeffco doesn't want to give KRMA approval they would have no choice. What is currently missing AFAIK is that KRMA has not applied to the FCC for approval to modify their existing tower on Lookout Mt. or construct a new one. Personally, I don't see why they wouldn't apply to the FCC for that permit. The FCC stated locations for the full power ATSC transmitter either need to be corrected, or else, KRMA hasn't changed them as they are still thinking about it. I think if they find enough people are still blacked out with the transmitter on the 'bridge' on Morrison, they might have reason to change their mind. In any case, the 'official story' is obviously what they told you, although the FCC site does not seem to agree at this point. As I have stated before, I am speculating, my opinions are my own and worth what you all paid for them.

Remember also that Golden still considers LCG to be building without a permit, as they've never issued a building permit for the new tower.
Gee, too bad for Golden that the tower site isn't within Golden city limits. :p

I am in aurora using ota hd. I get all hd channels except channel 4. I can even get channel 4 analog. From what I can tell, channel 4 and 7 are broadcast from the same location.

Any help ??
).


I live off of Mississippi and Kalispell and cannot see the mountains and use a cheap vhf/uhf antenna on my chimney (no amps and a three way splitter) and I get all denver analog and digital stations. I cannot see the mountains. I have a dish 811 and 622 reciever.

JM, remember though that JeffCo (specifically Judge Jackson) doesn't agree that the law says what it does on its face, and he just lifted the injunction against LCG's prior approval when the law was passed.

If KRMA were to apply to put their transmitter on their existing tower, I think JeffCo would then drag it through the courts and I suspect that would put KRMA past the analog cutoff unless they could lease a space on the LCG tower by then.

I also don't know what's involved in getting a construction permit approved by the FCC, but in my talk it was very clear that the imminent expiration of their CP for Morrison is what drove their actions.

JM, remember though that JeffCo (specifically Judge Jackson) doesn't agree that the law says what it does on its face, and he just lifted the injunction against LCG's prior approval when the law was passed.

If KRMA were to apply to put their transmitter on their existing tower, I think JeffCo would then drag it through the courts and I suspect that would put KRMA past the analog cutoff unless they could lease a space on the LCG tower by then.

I also don't know what's involved in getting a construction permit approved by the FCC, but in my talk it was very clear that the imminent expiration of their CP for Morrison is what drove their actions.

From JJ's ruling
Public Law No. 109-266.
Lake Cedar then filed a motion to dismiss this case and lift the Court’s March 26, 2004
stay order, arguing that Jefferson County’s land use laws and regulations were preempted by the
act. That motion is now denied for two reasons. First, the act does not sweep as broadly as Lake
Cedar claims. The act does not purport to preempt the Board’s zoning authority except on its
specific and limited terms. Second, and more importantly, subsequent events have rendered
Lake Cedar’s motion moot.
As I read it, the judge said he did not believe the law was as all encompassing as the LCG represented it, but he did not detail where or how the law would not apply. He said it was a mute point at this time since the commissioners had ruled in favor of the permit. Remember it was the Jeffco commissioners themselves (one would assume at the advice of their lawyers) who said they had no choice but to approve the permit as the result of the new law. Even (S)CARE (Deb) has gone to Washington to try to get the law changed again, which would seem to be an admission that it does apply. The judge seemed to be saying that local building codes etc. would still apply, and I am sure even KRMA would agree with that for their own insurance and safety purposes. Any construction on Lookout would have to satisfy local building codes, but could NOT be prevented because of any land use or zoning restrictions according to Federal Law.

While it is possible that Jeffco could drag them into court (an expense I am sure KRMA would not want to deal with), I would think that they could go to Federal Court and get an injunction to proceed without much trouble as long as they had the FCC permit and met existing building codes. I guess I am just hoping that KRMA will not be so short sighted as to place their transmitter in a location which apparently will not service large portions of the metro area. I would expect that would severely harm them at pledge time as well, although maybe they feel so many get the DTV channel on cable (certainly NOT on satellite) that they don't need it.

I have been very disappointed (actually I am being polite here) with KRMA's approach to this whole affair. While I am aware that their resources are likely more limited than some of the other network stations in the area, I don't feel that since they left the LCG that they have been putting forth their best effort to provide PBS to the entire front range. I think the move to Morrison was short sighted on their part, and now their solution seems to be even worse than their first Morrison plan. I would be OK with the cost cutting measures if it didn't seem apparent (at least to me) that a much better solution exists which can't cost that much more than the current solution (whatever that is after channel 20 moves to the new tower). I assume that channel 20 will abandon that sight after they move to Lookout in the new tower, unless they keep it as a backup. Now that they are affiliated with KUSA, that would not seem likely. It would seem that the Morrison sight will not be available after that, unless KRMA does continue to try to get its recent building permit from Jeffco. Since it is on Morrison, not Lookout, the Federal legislation would not apply and it would seem KRMA is still at the mercy of (S)CARE and Jeffco if they continue with their recent plan.

For a while there was talk they would simply remain on the RP after the transition, which at the very least is a bad solution since even if they were to increase power somewhat, they would be in a totally different direction from ALL the other OTA stations for nearly all of the OTA antenna public. From what I can gather, the Ice Bridge is a temporary (3 year or so) solution until after the changeover, and then it is not clear, at least to me, that they really have a plan at that time.

JM, remember though that JeffCo (specifically Judge Jackson) doesn't agree that the law says what it does on its face, and he just lifted the injunction against LCG's prior approval when the law was passed.

If KRMA were to apply to put their transmitter on their existing tower, I think JeffCo would then drag it through the courts and I suspect that would put KRMA past the analog cutoff unless they could lease a space on the LCG tower by then.

I also don't know what's involved in getting a construction permit approved by the FCC, but in my talk it was very clear that the imminent expiration of their CP for Morrison is what drove their actions.

I disagree. Judge Jackson, Scare, Jeffco etc. can holler all they want. If KRMA gets a permit from the FCC, they can do whatever they want to put digital on their Lookout Mtn. tower. The law plainly states that. If anybody wants to fight them, they would have to do so in Federal court. No lower court would have jurisdiction and I think it would never be heard in federal court. It seems like KRMA is Scared (pun intended). The ball is in their court not any of the opponents. The only hitch I see is if there is some problem in getting the permit from the FCC.

I believe had the injunction not been lifted or if anybody pulled anything on LCG, they would have gone on with construction. I think they were just being "good neighbors". They also had a plan in place so why change it.


I have been very disappointed (actually I am being polite here) with KRMA's approach to this whole affair. While I am aware that their resources are likely more limited than some of the other network stations in the area, I don't feel that since they left the LCG that they have been putting forth their best effort to provide PBS to the entire front range. I think the move to Morrison was short sighted on their part, and now their solution seems to be even worse than their first Morrison plan. I would be OK with the cost cutting measures if it didn't seem apparent (at least to me) that a much better solution exists which can't cost that much more than the current solution (whatever that is after channel 20 moves to the new tower). I assume that channel 20 will abandon that sight after they move to Lookout in the new tower, unless they keep it as a backup. Now that they are affiliated with KUSA, that would not seem likely. It would seem that the Morrison sight will not be available after that, unless KRMA does continue to try to get its recent building permit from Jeffco. Since it is on Morrison, not Lookout, the Federal legislation would not apply and it would seem KRMA is still at the mercy of (S)CARE and Jeffco if they continue with their recent plan.

Very well put. I couldn't agree more.

But I don't believe Morrison is a grandfathered site under the JeffCo zoning regs as is Lookout. sCARE prevented KRMA from building a new tower on Morrison, I don't believe there's an issue with them using 20's tower once the analog cutover occurs.

Compare to Lookout where any modification of KRMA's existing tower is considered by JeffCo to be a zoning violation.

Yes, the law appears to give them permission to do so if they have a valid CP from the FCC, but frankly I wouldn't be surprised to see sCARE and JeffCo keep KRMA in court until well after the cutoff.

But I don't believe Morrison is a grandfathered site under the JeffCo zoning regs as is Lookout. sCARE prevented KRMA from building a new tower on Morrison, I don't believe there's an issue with them using 20's tower once the analog cutover occurs.

Compare to Lookout where any modification of KRMA's existing tower is considered by JeffCo to be a zoning violation.

Yes, the law appears to give them permission to do so if they have a valid CP from the FCC, but frankly I wouldn't be surprised to see sCARE and JeffCo keep KRMA in court until well after the cutoff.

I know what you're saying, but JeffCo can interpret local laws all they want, they have no say or jurisdiction in the matter of federal law. It doesn't make a difference that they think the law is not as far encompassing, its not their call. They will not be able to pull the crap they did in federal court, same goes for sCARE. Like JMartinko said, they already went to Washington.

KRMA basically has an engraved invitation in stone to put their digital transmitter on Lookout, if they get a permit. Frankly, I don't understand what they are doing or waiting for. The second the federal law passed, I would have had an application in to the FCC, regardless what previous plans were. If they need coverage and viewers, I have no idea why they are messing with Morrison. Makes no sense that they seem to be saying this is their plan for 3 years, maybe more. They are just going to lose viewers like me and pledges.

KRMA basically has an engraved invitation in stone to put their digital transmitter on Lookout, if they get a permit. Frankly, I don't understand what they are doing or waiting for. The second the federal law passed, I would have had an application in to the FCC, regardless what previous plans were. If they need coverage and viewers, I have no idea why they are messing with Morrison. Makes no sense that they seem to be saying this is their plan for 3 years, maybe more. They are just going to lose viewers like me and pledges.

This is so well put. The silly question is WHY haven't KRMA done just this? Since the FCC database is "final" and shows LOM as the full power location, KRMA should not be messing w/ Morrison at all.

# Matt

Does anyone know if KRMA's Lookout tower is not "usable" for digital? For example, is there a weight issue or some other issue involving the tower's structural integrity? Would they have to build some additional facilities that are already available on Morrision? Also, is it higher than the one LCG is constructing? There may be some "politics" involved there. Is the tower on LCG's property?

I'm just raising these questions as I agree with the concensus of opinion here that KRMA is avoiding Lookout. There must be a reason for it.

Does anyone know if KRMA's Lookout tower is not "usable" for digital? For example, is there a weight issue or some other issue involving the tower's structural integrity? Would they have to build some additional facilities that are already available on Morrision? Also, is it higher than the one LCG is constructing? There may be some "politics" involved there. Is the tower on LCG's property?

If I understood their chief broadcast engineer properly, the tower would require some work to be done to add the digital transmitter, work that JeffCo's zoning regs would not allow them to do., which is why they had to go with Morrison or hope for space on the LCG tower.

Granted that decision may have been made in-house prior to the law being passed, but essentially the current Lookout tower will be useless for anything after the cutover and I don't think KRMA wanted to place their eggs in the same basket as the rest of LCG when they thought they would have an "easier" time of things on Morrison.

KRMA basically has an engraved invitation in stone to put their digital transmitter on Lookout, if they get a permit. Frankly, I don't understand what they are doing or waiting for. The second the federal law passed, I would have had an application in to the FCC, regardless what previous plans were. If they need coverage and viewers, I have no idea why they are messing with Morrison. Makes no sense that they seem to be saying this is their plan for 3 years, maybe more. They are just going to lose viewers like me and pledges.

Frankly, I think KRMA didn't want to take the risk that sCARE will be able to find a way to stop construction of LCG's tower.

The important thing to remember is I don't believe the new law has been tested in court yet; I believe Judge Jackson just lifted his injunction against the prior approval by the JeffCo BCC.

Frankly, I think KRMA didn't want to take the risk that sCARE will be able to find a way to stop construction of LCG's tower.

The important thing to remember is I don't believe the new law has been tested in court yet; I believe Judge Jackson just lifted his injunction against the prior approval by the JeffCo BCC.

No, I think the injunction was lifted after the vote by the BCC.

From the April 16th ruling by JJ.
On March 12, 2007 the Board held a final hearing concerning Lake Cedar’s rezoning
application (R. 6005-6113). At the conclusion of the hearing the Board unanimously voted to
approve Resolution No. CC07-118. In this resolution, after briefly reviewing the procedural
history of the Board’s consideration of the rezoning application, the Board adopted 11 findings
that it had earlier made in resolution nos. CC03-410 and CC04-451. Based upon those findings,
the Board approved Lake Cedar’s rezoning application on terms set forth in the Official
Development Plan recorded September 22, 2003 in the records of Jefferson County, Colorado at
Reception Number F1870192.

I don't believe there is anything about the law to test in a court other than possibly the extent of the ruling. Even (S)CARE admitted as much when Deb went to Washington to try to get the legislatures to pass a new more restrictive law.
Deb Carney recently took a trip to Washington, D.C.. Her mission was to educate Congress that current RF radiation limits do not protect us from long-term radiation.

In addition, she and her team conducted additional discussions about the Lake Cedar Group, Allard-Salazar Act of Congress (S4092), and its unintended consequences and effects on
our community.

Also from the (S)CARE web page:
* There is no indication that any of our Colorado Delegation has made any effort to modify the law that was passed in the middle of the night. This means over 20 additional high power HDTV antennas (current/pending FCC permits) could be put up on Lookout Mountain under S4092.

If you remember, the day after the BCC vote of approval, even the commissioners admitted that they had no choice but to approve the LCG plan even though, as you remember, they had all campaigned saying they would NEVER approve any tower plan for Lookout.
Again from the (S)CARE web page:
On March 12th, all 3 Jefferson County Commissioners, stating
that they felt the Act of Congress gave them no other
alternative, voted to approve the Lake Cedar Group 2003
Official Development Plan approved and recorded in 2003 by
the previous commissioners.

As I quoted JJ earlier, he questioned the LCG interpretation of the ruling to the extent that they had argued that no local restrictions applied. I believe it is safe to say (as we have discussed here before) that Jeffco cannot object to construction based upon zoning restrictions, but any facilities would still have to meet local building codes. The LCG had argued that the new law exempted them from even that oversight.

As I have said before, it really appears to me that KRMA doesn't really have a long term plan for their DTV signal, but there would be very little standing in the way of upgrading their tower on Lookout (once they applied for and obtained a FCC permit) as long as they met local building codes, which they would want to do for insurance purposes anyway. Your argument about KRMA's position made sense up until Congress passed S4092. Now, for my money, they have no more excuses.

Posted by JMartinko:
As I quoted JJ earlier, he questioned the LCG interpretation of the ruling to the extent that they had argued that no local restrictions applied. I believe it is safe to say (as we have discussed here before) that Jeffco cannot object to construction based upon zoning restrictions, but any facilities would still have to meet local building codes. The LCG had argued that the new law exempted them from even that oversight.

As of the moment, LCG apparently has not applied for any building permits. If LCG continues to act in this manner, what power does JeffCo have in this regard? If JeffCo denies, e.g. a certificate of occupancy for the buildings and LCG occupies them anyway, does anyone think JeffCo will take LCG to task? Court proceedings?

As I have said before, it really appears to me that KRMA doesn't really have a long term plan for their DTV signal, but there would be very little standing in the way of upgrading their tower on Lookout (once they applied for and obtained a FCC permit) as long as they met local building codes, which they would want to do for insurance purposes anyway. Your argument about KRMA's position made sense up until Congress passed S4092. Now, for my money, they have no more excuses.

Amen! But the question of building codes still remains. Neither KRMA nor LCG can technically meet building code requirements unless they obtain building permits and pass inspection. If LCG elects not to go this route, is that because they are self insured versus KRMA which probably can't afford to take the risk of self-insurance?

I agree that KRMA's recent actions using Morrison are very disappointing. Their application to use Morrison (ice bridge) was prepared in November 2006 but was not submitted to the FCC until February 5, 2007, well after passage of S.4092. For some reason, they gave up on Lookout when they didn't have to. Perhaps finances were the reason. Maybe they need to have a "Lookout Mountain Digital Tower Fund Drive" for 3 days with Jerry Butler and Betty Everett hosting a 1950's oldies show from Pittsburgh.

...............
I agree that KRMA's recent actions using Morrison are very disappointing..........For some reason, they gave up on Lookout when they didn't have to. Perhaps finances were the reason................

Unless they plan on using the 'ice bridge' forever, it is not inherently obvious to me that continuing with the old plan previously submitted to build a new facility on Morrison would be less costly than modifying the existing equipment on Lookout, even if that meant replacing the existing tower. I have not looked at the price of the two different towers, but at least on Lookout, it would seem they would not have to replace the transmitter facility, even if they had to modify it.

Although the Act doesn't specifically require or imply anyone shall observe local building codes (or local anything else) who here thinks the broadcasters would construct anything that doesn't meet or exceed all applicable local and commercially accepted standards?

These are to be state-of-art facilities that must endure the environmental realities of Lookout for the next 50+ years. Certificates of inspection and occupancy will not shield anyone from litigation if someone gets hurt up there.

--- CHAS

Poking around the net for show prep, I came across this through various channels.

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070814-report-cable-companies-facing-big-bandwidth-crunch.html

I guess I'm not going to get cable anytime soon. I do need to get the *E HD receiver so I can get a few more channels and locals in HD. The 811 just doesn't cut it anymore.

I just wish I could get 4, 6 7, 9 where I live (Parker and Broncos Pkwy)

Unless they plan on using the 'ice bridge' forever, it is not inherently obvious to me that continuing with the old plan previously submitted to build a new facility on Morrison would be less costly than modifying the existing equipment on Lookout, even if that meant replacing the existing tower. I have not looked at the price of the two different towers, but at least on Lookout, it would seem they would not have to replace the transmitter facility, even if they had to modify it.
KRMA's original plan was to build a new tower and facility on Morrison.

I believe the current plan is to use the ice bridge for the next few years and then to either use 20's tower and facilities on Morrison when they vacate due to the cutover or move to the LCG tower if there's space.

I think KRMA's current thinking is that since 20 was bought by 9 and is now part of LCG, they should be able to get their tower and facilities for a song after the cutover and shouldn't have zoning issues since it would be a swap of one transmitter for another. (Not that logic works with JeffCo or sCARE.)

Recall that KRMA also currently moved to KUSA's old studios on Bannock, so they've a history of moving into other stations' old facilities. :D

Poking around the net for show prep, I came across this through various channels.

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070814-report-cable-companies-facing-big-bandwidth-crunch.html

I guess I'm not going to get cable anytime soon. I do need to get the *E HD receiver so I can get a few more channels and locals in HD. The 811 just doesn't cut it anymore.

I just wish I could get 4, 6 7, 9 where I live (Parker and Broncos Pkwy)
I think the statements in this article are misleading. As cable operators migrate all their analog channels to digital, there will be significantly more bandwidth available for other purposes. I'm not trying to say that they do not need to upgrade their technology and infrastructure, only that the need may not be as critical as indicated in the article.

KRMA's original plan was to build a new tower and facility on Morrison.

I believe the current plan is to use the ice bridge for the next few years and then to either use 20's tower and facilities on Morrison when they vacate due to the cutover or move to the LCG tower if there's space.

I think KRMA's current thinking is that since 20 was bought by 9 and is now part of LCG, they should be able to get their tower and facilities for a song after the cutover and shouldn't have zoning issues since it would be a swap of one transmitter for another. (Not that logic works with JeffCo or sCARE.)

Recall that KRMA also currently moved to KUSA's old studios on Bannock, so they've a history of moving into other stations' old facilities. :D

Actually their "original" plan was to be a part of the LCG tower.

As for their purchasing and using the Channel 20 tower, I don't see that happening on Morrison without another long term fight from (S)CARE. Jeffco always said (up until the congressional intervention) that they do not believe digital and analog are the same service. Without getting into the merits or quality of that discussion, I think it is pretty safe to say that they would contest the use of the tower for digital only, and I am not sure how the change in ownership might also increase the validity of their argument in court. I am actually surprised that Jeffco and (S)CARE haven't reacted already to the new KRMA antenna there, but it may be only a matter of time until they do. Regardless, I see a lot of legal expendatures for KRMA if they still intend to make the permanent move to Morrison, that they would NOT have to spend to upgrade on Lookout. Since they are more $$ limited than the other stations, I would think that would be a major concern.

Actually their "original" plan was to be a part of the LCG tower.

As for their purchasing and using the Channel 20 tower, I don't see that happening on Morrison without another long term fight from (S)CARE. Jeffco always said (up until the congressional intervention) that they do not believe digital and analog are the same service. Without getting into the merits or quality of that discussion, I think it is pretty safe to say that they would contest the use of the tower for digital only, and I am not sure how the change in ownership might also increase the validity of their argument in court. I am actually surprised that Jeffco and (S)CARE haven't reacted already to the new KRMA antenna there, but it may be only a matter of time until they do. Regardless, I see a lot of legal expendatures for KRMA if they still intend to make the permanent move to Morrison, that they would NOT have to spend to upgrade on Lookout. Since they are more $$ limited than the other stations, I would think that would be a major concern.
I tend to agree. Since the Federal law explicitly names Lookout Mountain I don't see how it applies to Morrison at all. And since the LCG tower is supposed to accomodate four analog and four digital facilities and nobody expects there to be any analog facilities, accomodating KRMA-DT shouldn't be a problem in terms of space on the tower nor in the building. I said a long time ago on this thread (or its predecesor) that in terms of additional tenants on LCG (which sCARE was bandying about in the spring) the only likely one is KRMA-DT.

If I remember correctly, the channel 20 tower on Morrison is in compliance with zoning for its site, and there has never been a zoning issue preventing Channel 20 from putting a digital antenna there. Kind of like KDVR on Lookout. For whatever reason, they chose to become part of LCG instead.

Maybe that is incorrect. It always seemed odd that Channel 20 would use Republic Plaza as a temporary site if it was true, but maybe it was a cheaper option for temporary facilities.

If I remember correctly, the channel 20 tower on Morrison is in compliance with zoning for its site, and there has never been a zoning issue preventing Channel 20 from putting a digital antenna there. Kind of like KDVR on Lookout. For whatever reason, they chose to become part of LCG instead.

Maybe that is incorrect. It always seemed odd that Channel 20 would use Republic Plaza as a temporary site if it was true, but maybe it was a cheaper option for temporary facilities.

I don't remember why 20 went to the RP either, except that maybe it had to do with the union with KUSA. It certainly would be easier to transmit the morning news (for example) for two hours on DT-9 and then for the next two hours on DT-20 if they both are in the same location.

As for the Morrison situation, I am not sure that a sale of the property to KRMA and then its use as a DTV tower would qualify as 'same service' which I think is a prerequisite for avoiding any new permit hearings.

Posted by JMartinko:
As for the Morrison situation, I am not sure that a sale of the property to KRMA and then its use as a DTV tower would qualify as 'same service' which I think is a prerequisite for avoiding any new permit hearings.

I don't think that a sale changes the nature of the activity, in this case, broadcasting TV signals. TV stations are bought and sold all the time. I don't think this requires a review of physical facilities via new building permits. As far as "same service", seems like we covered this point in detail about a year ago on this forum. There really isn't a definition of it and even if there was, I'm confident JeffCo would come up with their own definition anyway!

It seems to me that there are two things that are quite evident at this time re: KRMA. The first is that the ice bridge location is temporary (per kucharsk's communication with KRMA). The second is that KTVD will soon have an analog tower with no apparent usefulness to it as a corporate asset (provided they keep RP as a backup or move the RP transmitter to Lookout after the new tower is complete).

There are still a couple of TV stations in the metro area that have not gone digital yet. The major one is Pax 59 and there are few LP's such as channel 23, 27, etc. Perhaps the market for KTVD's analog tower, taking KTVD's perspective, is a little more broad than just considering KRMA.

Just my two cents.

Meanwhile, the Thursday, RMN Spotlight had a little blurb on page 2 touting that KRMA has gone full power for DTV and has met the Congressional and FCC requirements in that regard well in advance of the February 2009 end date. It also noted that KRMA claimed that they now reach something like 95% of their analog signal customers, whereas their RP signal only reached 10 to 15%. What a bunch of bull hockey! As noted in this thread, many DTV customers can no longer receive KRMA-DT's signal due to their recent changes. IMHO, there new DTV operation will quietly move them into the back-waters of OTA DTV.

As to what they will do after the mandatory change date, I don't see federal officials and our congressional delegation allowing any undue abuse of KRMA by the local yokels. After all, it is the people's broadcasting system, not just another corporation.

Meanwhile, the Thursday, RMN Spotlight had a little blurb on page 2 touting that KRMA has gone full power for DTV and has met the Congressional and FCC requirements in that regard well in advance of the February 2009 end date. It also noted that KRMA claimed that they now reach something like 95% of their analog signal customers, whereas their RP signal only reached 10 to 15%. What a bunch of bull hockey! As noted in this thread, many DTV customers can no longer receive KRMA-DT's signal due to their recent changes. IMHO, there new DTV operation will quietly move them into the back-waters of OTA DTV.

As to what they will do after the mandatory change date, I don't see federal officials and our congressional delegation allowing any undue abuse of KRMA by the local yokels. After all, it is the people's broadcasting system, not just another corporation.


Guess I must be in the 5% :(

Guess I must be in the 5% :(

Apparently it is a MUCH BIGGER 5% than normal.
:rolleyes:

I watched the Broncos on KCNC tonight and thought, overall, the production was borderline terrible. I thought the HD was very soft, almost looked like the old Fox 480p widescreen, only a little bit worse. They also ran a weather crawl for Joes, CO, which must be 190 miles away. Of course, they had to switch to SD to do this. I know equipment to do crawls in HD costs $, but we are a top 20 market, the station is owned by CBS, and they haven't had the outlay most other stations have had to go full power digital yet. Then, for most of the 4th quarter, they sent out an SD picture. I also thought the SD was very bad. Looked like an analog feed. Very disappointing.

I'm surprised too that KCNC has to go to SD for the weather crawl. KUSA does it in on Today show. They constantly squeeze the HD picture up (Still in HD) and run info below.

KDVR still drops to SD for weather crawls as well. You can tell a crawl is coming because they like to drop to SD a full minute or so before they start running the crawl, and generally stay that way for a minute or so after.

What's particularly frustrating is KDVR will run crawls for watches that have already been out for hours and that have not yet spawned any warnings…

And since the LCG tower is supposed to accomodate four analog and four digital facilities and nobody expects there to be any analog facilities, accomodating KRMA-DT shouldn't be a problem in terms of space on the tower nor in the building.

KCNC-DT, KMGH-DT, KUSA-DT and KTVD-DT (20) are all already set for LCG's tower, so the question is what adding a fifth would involve.

Frankly, it's been about two weeks now and I find I'm not really missing KRMA-DT at all; the only shows really worth watching have been on KRMA (analog) and until they duplicate their analog schedule on digital, really, it's no big deal for me.

KRMA-DT used to be a great source for programming, but that was before they went to their Create-heavy schedule and reduced HD to five hours a day.

I don't think the tower design changed after KRMA dropped out of the LCG so I doubt it would be difficult to accommodate them now. I really don't know if there was any change in the design of the equipment facility after KRMA left, but you would certainly think that there would be room since it seems obvious that the LCG stations are not likely ever to need to provide analog facilities from the new tower.

All that being said, I don't know if there are any hard feelings left from the LCG group after KRMA left. Is it possible that there may be some hard feelings that KRMA didn't have to stick it out like the others, and now wants to benefit from the money they spent lobbying Congress to get the job approved? I don't think any of us really know the answer to that question?

OT
Boy am I in trouble. I just noticed that at least for now, the spell checker no longer exists in the new software....:eek: I sure hope they can bring it back.

KRMA-DT used to be a great source for programming, but that was before they went to their Create-heavy schedule and reduced HD to five hours a day.Only three hours a day (since the 6-9PM block gets repeated).
Plus, only about half of what they show during that time is HD, the rest being widescreen up-converts.

Only three hours a day (since the 6-9PM block gets repeated).
Plus, only about half of what they show during that time is HD, the rest being widescreen up-converts.

I still feel KRMA had the best picture quality. It's funny, I really don't watch much tv, but the night KRMA went dark, I had 2 programs scheduled to be recorded. I thought there was something wrong with my pc, it wasn't till I went to forums that I realized I will no longer be watching or recording KRMA. :mad:

OT
Boy am I in trouble. I just noticed that at least for now, the spell checker no longer exists in the new software....:eek: I sure hope they can bring it back.

I run IE7 under Windows XP. I noticed the ABC-Check icon in the upper right area of the Message creation field. It led me to ieSpell from ieSpell.com. I did a little looking around on the Internet and didn't immediately find any horror stories, so I decided to download and install it. So far it seems to be OK. The potential deal breaker for some may be that it does not list Vista as a supported OS.
A little annoyance for me is the cursor jumps back to the Change box after each evaluation. I preferred the previous tool which would stay on my last selection. There are often a lot of Ignore All situations with things like call Signs etc. The other minor issue is that it examines the quote too.

One other little issue. The installation changed my toolbar. I had to use Tools/Toolbars/Customize to get the icon back for Yahoo Login.

Major Pros: The price is right (Free for non-commercial use) and it seems to get the job done.

I run IE7 under Windows XP. I noticed the ABC-Check icon in the upper right area of the Message creation field. It led me to ieSpell from ieSpell.com. I did a little looking around on the Internet and didn't immediately find any horror stories, so I decided to download and install it. So far it seems to be OK. The potential deal breaker for some may be that it does not list Vista as a supported OS.
A little annoyance for me is the cursor jumps back to the Change box after each evaluation. I preferred the previous tool which would stay on my last selection. There are often a lot of Ignore All situations with things like call Signs etc. The other minor issue is that it examines the quote too.

One other little issue. The installation changed my toolbar. I had to use Tools/Toolbars/Customize to get the icon back for Yahoo Login.

Major Pros: The price is right (Free for non-commercial use) and it seems to get the job done.

Or you could just use Firefox. It has a built in spell checker that will work on every site.

Hey, all of a sudden I get KDVR-DT at a strength of 80 on my H10-250, did they turn up the power? I've never been able to get it before (like for the last 1 year) due to a house right on the azimuth and difficulty getting antenna high enough.

I didn't change anything, what gives? Obviously I'm pleased, now I get all networks OTA.

Do we have a tower completion date?
Thank you.

Hey, all of a sudden I get KDVR-DT at a strength of 80 on my H10-250, did they turn up the power? I've enver been able to get it before (like for the last 1 year) due to a house right on the azimuth and difficulty getting antenna high enough.

I didn't change anything, what gives? Obviously I'm pleased, now I get all networks OTA.
Is anyone else seeing this? If so, I'll drag my 4228 upstairs and give it a try here in WP. ;)
....jc

Do we have a tower completion date?
Thank you.
From hdtvcolorado (http://www.hdtvcolorado.com/), Spring 2008. If you're looking for predictions from the august members of this forum, you can check the second page of this thread - dr_mal was maintaining a pool.

From hdtvcolorado (http://www.hdtvcolorado.com/), Spring 2008. If you're looking for predictions from the august members of this forum, you can check the second page of this thread - dr_mal was maintaining a pool.
I was? :confused: (Checks the second page of the thread) Oh right, I started to, but then Ernie came up with a better way. http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=9575414&postcount=44

In order to understand why Denver TV stations have placed their temporary DTV transmitters where thy have, you have to realize that there are non-technical factors at play. Most importantly, Jefferson County zoning regulations require that in order to obtain a zoning change for a new broadcast facility, the applicant must show that there are no available alternative sites. While KRMA was seeking approval, it had to maintain that there was no more room on Mt. Morrison, and that even existing TV stations on the north tower would be displaced. Therefore, KRMA could not place its temporary (or permanent) transmitter on Mt. Morrison, as it would prove that there WAS room. Placement of the temporary transmitter on the Republic Plaza would demonstrate what a poor transmitting place that would be.

When LCG was still seeking approval, Mt. Morrison had just obtained approval for a large new facility. LCG members had to maintain that Lookout was the ONLY place from which they could broadcast, and that Mt. Morrison (even though higher and farther east and already zoned for towers) was not a good broadcast spot. Placing any of LCG’s temporary transmitters on Mt. Morrison would have shown that Mt. Morrison is a good site.

Now that KRMA’s zoning approval is stalled in the courts, KRMA no longer has to maintain that there is no room on Mt. Morrison: If they win, they can build their new tower. If they lose, they are already on Mt. Morrison with the most powerful transmitter they can presently afford.

In order to understand why Denver TV stations have placed their temporary DTV transmitters where thy have, you have to realize that there are non-technical factors at play. Most importantly, Jefferson County zoning regulations require that in order to obtain a zoning change for a new broadcast facility, the applicant must show that there are no available alternative sites. While KRMA was seeking approval, it had to maintain that there was no more room on Mt. Morrison, and that even existing TV stations on the north tower would be displaced. Therefore, KRMA could not place its temporary (or permanent) transmitter on Mt. Morrison, as it would prove that there WAS room. Placement of the temporary transmitter on the Republic Plaza would demonstrate what a poor transmitting place that would be.

When LCG was still seeking approval, Mt. Morrison had just obtained approval for a large new facility. LCG members had to maintain that Lookout was the ONLY place from which they could broadcast, and that Mt. Morrison (even though higher and farther east and already zoned for towers) was not a good broadcast spot. Placing any of LCG’s temporary transmitters on Mt. Morrison would have shown that Mt. Morrison is a good site.

Now that KRMA’s zoning approval is stalled in the courts, KRMA no longer has to maintain that there is no room on Mt. Morrison: If they win, they can build their new tower. If they lose, they are already on Mt. Morrison with the most powerful transmitter they can presently afford.

Given the problems so many people have had (especially in the Louisville/Lafayette area among others, we can all be grateful the the LCG stations never moved to Morrison. We can only hope that KRMA will also see the wisdom in either rejoining the LCG on the new tower, or upgrading their existing equipment on Lookout using the new Congressional law to overcome local zoning issues. It sure seems from the results of the current KRMA DTV transmitter that Morrison is not nearly as good as advertised, at least for those of us north and just east of the mountains.
:)

Posted by Al h:
In order to understand why Denver TV stations have placed their temporary DTV transmitters where thy have, you have to realize that there are non-technical factors at play. Most importantly, Jefferson County zoning regulations require that in order to obtain a zoning change for a new broadcast facility, the applicant must show that there are no available alternative sites. While KRMA was seeking approval, it had to maintain that there was no more room on Mt. Morrison, and that even existing TV stations on the north tower would be displaced. Therefore, KRMA could not place its temporary (or permanent) transmitter on Mt. Morrison, as it would prove that there WAS room. Placement of the temporary transmitter on the Republic Plaza would demonstrate what a poor transmitting place that would be.

When LCG was still seeking approval, Mt. Morrison had just obtained approval for a large new facility. LCG members had to maintain that Lookout was the ONLY place from which they could broadcast, and that Mt. Morrison (even though higher and farther east and already zoned for towers) was not a good broadcast spot. Placing any of LCG’s temporary transmitters on Mt. Morrison would have shown that Mt. Morrison is a good site.

Now that KRMA’s zoning approval is stalled in the courts, KRMA no longer has to maintain that there is no room on Mt. Morrison: If they win, they can build their new tower. If they lose, they are already on Mt. Morrison with the most powerful transmitter they can presently afford.

I don't think this is a fair, complete representation of why what happened, happened.

Placement of transmitters for coverage is not a non-technical factor, it IS a technical issue. Also, there is no requirement that I am aware of (read FCC here) that a temporary transmitter must be placed in same location as a permanent transmitter. That's exactly why the RP transmitters exist today. I'm also unaware of any reasoning that would verifiably conclude that placing a temporary transmitter on Morrison, in a sense, automatically makes that a viable cite for a permanent transmitter. To conclude that, one would have to conclude that RP is also a viable alternative because that's where the temporary transmitters are.

As I recollect, there was also an issue with RF levels on Morrison. I believe that is why KWGN and KDVR operate their digital transmitters at reduced power levels. That will change when analog is shut off and 5100 ERP goes away.

Speaking of KDVR, I checked this AM and found my signal strength way up. When I have my antenna pointed at RP, I used to barely get enough signal on KDVR to lock (min 60 needed on my E* receiver). As a result, I watch Fox on KFCT so I don't have to turn my antenna. Now the signal strength on KDVR is 78 pointing at RP.

I just checked KDVR-DT with my Dish 811 off my RP oriented antenna. I used to get readings of 80 to 84 with a pretty steady 82. Now I'm getting 84 to 88 with a pretty constant flip between 85 and 87. My conclusion is that the signal does appear to be a bit stronger, but also maybe a bit less stable. Perhaps KDVR-DT did increase their power or adjust their broadcast antenna. I still don't have my LOM antenna back in operation, so I can't compare before and after readings from it.

For grins I hauled my 4228 upstairs and pointed it out a window. Basically the same results: KBDI(all 3) coming in fine and a few of the C/S digitals coming in through the back of the antenna. KDVR analog was received but a bit snowy. No dice on KDVR digital.
....jc

Weird. I hope it wasn't a fluke, I'll check again when I get home.

As I recollect, there was also an issue with RF levels on Morrison. I believe that is why KWGN and KDVR operate their digital transmitters at reduced power levels. That will change when analog is shut off and 5100 ERP goes away.

I'm not aware of RF levels on Morrison having anything to do with KWGN and KDVR, though perhaps RF levels on Lookout are a factor.

KWGN is currently broadcasting on their short tower, less than 200 ft. above the nearby ground, which provided them with a loophole through the JeffCo regulations. Because of the closeness to the ground they could not put out more than the 450kW ERP they are using now without causing RF issues. I would guess as the result of last year's legislation they can put their digital transmitter on the regular tower and boost the output pretty much whenever they want to.

As for KDVR, I don't know if they are broadcasting at 1/3 power because of RF issues, power issues, or just to save money until analog shutoff. Their tower and DTV transmitter was conforming prior the Federal law.

As for KDVR, I don't know if they are broadcasting at 1/3 power because of RF issues, power issues, or just to save money until analog shutoff. Their tower and DTV transmitter was conforming prior the Federal law.
Way back when, I talked with an engineer from KDVR. He told me that their Digital power level was limited by their Analog power level. Once Analog goes away, it won't be counted(in their radiation footprint), and they can go to full power. Anyway, that's what he told me.
....jc

Same for KWGN. They will use their large tower after analog shut-off and save the short tower for back-up.

Same for KWGN. They will use their large tower after analog shut-off and save the short tower for back-up.
When KWGN was seeking approval from Jeffco years ago, they wanted to put the antenna on the big tower then, though I don't know what power level they might have used. They settled on the shorter tower because that is what they could get approved. At this point they don't need those approvals (because of the Federal law) and so they could move the antenna now. It might increase their range somewhat, though they probably have the best range now of all the Denver DTV stations anyway.

Way back when, I talked with an engineer from KDVR. He told me that their Digital power level was limited by their Analog power level. Once Analog goes away, it won't be counted(in their radiation footprint), and they can go to full power. Anyway, that's what he told me.
....jc

TPW...according to the FCC database, they actually got permission to go 1 million watts anytime they wanted. Check this out...the construction permit just expired...

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=DT423881.html

Is it possible they could have gone to 1 mw? Can someone find out?

Here are the top 10 things that will happen in Denver when the tower is built:

10. Ernie will be giving away millions of dollars in cash to the winner
of the tower-building exact date contest (well, OK, *maybe* a copy of "An Inconvenient Truth" with a special chapter of sCARE doing narration)

9. The Mormon Tabernacle Choir will fly out from Salt Lake City to sing the "Hallelujah Chorus"

8. The barbecue party on the mountain that night will suffocate half of Denver with it's smoke, finally proving sCARE right that the tower was a hazard

7. People won't be able to get the stations due to front-end overload on their tuners

6. Each station decides to multicast 5 subchannels, making the video quality of YouTube look like HD in comparison

5. Cable companies raise their HD package rates by $20 per month...oh, just because this sounds like a good excuse to do that, even though it makes absolutely no sense

4. AVS Forum goes bankrupt as it's major core audience no longer has anything to talk about

3. Congressional approval ratings go through the roof

2. Station engineers get a "ticker tape" parade through downtown Denver, made from shredded legal paperwork generated over the last 10 years

And the number one thing you'll be doing when the tower is built...

1. Millions of Denver area residents will do this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6UV3kRV46Zs

THE CHICKEN DANCE!

Wow...that's disturbing! Please don't sue me for that, I had nothing to do with it. And I'll even deny I came up with this list. :D

That is the funniest thing I've read on AVS all day. Thanks :) (Um, the "thanks" doesn't apply to the YouTube link. That was...odd... )

I just fired off an email to KDVR. I'll share any reply I receive.

Here are the top 10 things that will happen in Denver when the tower is built:

.......................And the number one thing you'll be doing when the tower is built...

1. Millions of Denver area residents will do this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6UV3kRV46Zs

...............

:eek:
ROFLMAO!
That is just soooo wrong. That kind of thing should be banned from the 'youztube' web pages. Just think of how many 'chickens' were harmed during the filming. If Michael Vick showed that at his hearing he would be set free as a humanitarian. What if the Denver DTV stations suddenly simulcast that on all 5 subchannels? It could mean the end of civilization in the Colorado front range. It's just soooo wrong.....
:D

I wonder if KDVR somehow increased their signal to the south.

I've got an antenna pointed at RP from Louisville but it also works to pick up KWGN-DT and KDVR-DT, and my signal strength for KDVR-DT hasn't changed by a single digit or signal strength "bar" from what it's always been.

Update:

still coming in at about 80-90.

When I first set up my antenna 2 years ago, antennaweb.org told me that 3 networks were at 319 deg, while only KDVR-DT was at 284 deg.

The problem was that while 319 is right between 2 houses, 284 aimed me right at a neighbor's house, which is slightly higher than mine. I could not mount my antenna high enough, and never got KDVR-DT. The last time I fooled with it was about 8 months ago.

Well now as I said, 2 nights ago I was surfing and got to KDVR over satellite, I went up one and got to 31-1, and there was a picture! I checked signal strength on my D* HR10 and it was 80-90.

Now I haven't checked on it in a long time, and have not kept up with the latest happenings. Did they simply move the antenna? Is it now in the same spot as the other networks? If so that would explain it.

Otherwise I don't know, but I'm not complaining!

Now that I can get all networks OTA I don't need to bug D* about upgrading to MPEG-4.

Here's the reply I received from KDVR this AM:

We recently had work done on our transmitters. We were trouble-shooting as to why they weren’t up to full capacity. The problem has been corrected so there would be a perceived increase in signal strength.

So, it doesn't look like there was any increase in ERP.

About a month ago I entered the following issue to their system on the KRMA web page.
My Philips DVDR3575H/37 DVD recorder with built in ATSC tuner does not output sound on the 6-2 subchannel, although my Philips 42PF7320A and VIZIO VX32L TVs do get the sound on 6-2. I have seen a report by 2 viewers on the AVSFORUM dedicated to Denver area broadcast TV that S3 TIVO units also get no sound on 6-2, and they also report a grey screen.
Yesterday I got a response from Joe Hiatt (Viewer Services Coordinator - Rocky Mountain PBS), that included the following message.
There were some issues with our PSIP (Program and System Information Protocol) broadcast unit that have now been resolved. If you are still experiencing difficulties with our digital broadcast please rescan your television channels. This should resolve the issues you're having.
My Philips DVDR3575H still cannot get any sound output on 6-2, although I certainly can live with it, since I do not speak Spanish.
Perhaps the people with S3 TIVO units that reported problems with 6-2 might want to check to see if their situation has changed.

Perhaps the people with S3 TIVO units that reported problems with 6-2 might want to check to see if their situation has changed.
I sent an email yesterday letting them know there's still no sound or video on S3 TiVOs because they are still not sending a VPID or APID for 6-2 in their data stream.

Until they do that, the signal will be unwatchable by anyone with an S3 TiVO, HD TiVO or Microsoft Windows Media Center PC.

Until they do that, the signal will be unwatchable by anyone with an S3 TiVO, HD TiVO or Microsoft Windows Media Center PC.Problem also affects MythTV, as I can attest.

Can anyone confirm the coordinates for the new tower? I've got:
Lat: 39° 43' 50.60"N
Long: 105° 13' 53.60"W

I got those from KUSA's current CP. (They also match KCNC's).

Thanks,
....jc

Lat: 39° 43' 50.60"N
Long: 105° 13' 53.60"W

....jc

Type those coordinates into Google Map, zoom in and turn on the overhead image. You should be able to see Lake Cedar and the existing Lookout towers to the west if the coordinates are correct.

--- CHAS

Here are the top 10 things that will happen in Denver when the tower is built:
...

And the number one thing you'll be doing when the tower is built...

1. Millions of Denver area residents will do this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6UV3kRV46Zs

THE CHICKEN DANCE!

:D

Hell, I will do it. I don't think Deb C. will join me though. It has been a long wait. We are getting old waiting for this tower.

Don

Can anyone confirm the coordinates for the new tower? I've got:
Lat: 39° 43' 50.60"N
Long: 105° 13' 53.60"W

I got those from KUSA's current CP. (They also match KCNC's).

Thanks,
....jc



Type those coordinates into Google Map, zoom in and turn on the overhead image. You should be able to see Lake Cedar and the existing Lookout towers to the west if the coordinates are correct.

--- CHAS

Fun with computer toys!

I ran it through Google maps and it 'looks' pretty close. The point shows up just below the tower at the end of Cedar Lake Road on the google map. It looks a bit lower on the hill than I might have expected (about 400 ft below the tower), but I would guess that is pretty close if that is what he found. The photo in Google is older, so there has not yet been any construction to see if it is correct.

FWIW, I couldn't figure out how to input deg,min,sec, so I converted it to decimal degrees for google. Use these numbers (assuming the converter I used was correct). Just do a google map search for these coordinates.
39.73072222222223,-105.23155555555556

You know what amazes me? There hasn't been a public whiff of a complaint (at least not on sCARE's website or City & County Views) about the recent modifications of the tower on Morrision without county approval.

Maybe they really are in Boca DelVista and have finally given up on losing and being publicly embarrased by their stupidity!

You know what amazes me? There hasn't been a public whiff of a complaint (at least not on sCARE's website or City & County Views) about the recent modifications of the tower on Morrision without county approval.

Maybe they really are in Boca DelVista and have finally given up on losing and being publicly embarrased by their stupidity!

I am surprised too, but I wouldn't count on them "finally given up on losing and being publicly embarrassed by their stupidity!” If they weren't embarrassed by some of the drivel they spouted over the last few years, they sure wouldn't be now. Maybe their wheel chairs have stopped running on their own and their garage door openers are all now manually operated.
:)

You know what amazes me? There hasn't been a public whiff of a complaint (at least not on sCARE's website or City & County Views) about the recent modifications of the tower on Morrision without county approval.

I'm pretty sure they received permits from Jeffco.

-Wabisabi

I'm pretty sure they received permits from Jeffco.
Though by mounting the transmitter on the ice bridge, it isn't actually on the Mt. Morrison tower.

I'm pretty sure they received permits from Jeffco.So, now JeffCo is just handing out permits without any public hearings, hangings or beheadings?

So, now JeffCo is just handing out permits without any public hearings, hangings or beheadings?

Permits are done without public hearings, but if the applicant or another party does not like the outcome (approval or denial), then the decision can be challenged, and that leads to a public hearing.

Rezonings always have public hearings.

-Wabisabi

After having to cave in on the Lookout matter, maybe they feel a sense of futility realizing DTV from Jeffco falls into the same category as death and taxation.

--- CHAS

I was just driving past Lookout this afternoon and it looks like the building's roof is just about complete. They are moving along really fast. Can't wait to see the tower go up!

As mentioned before, since LCG doesn't technically have a building permit for the structure, I wonder how they're going to get an occupancy permit for it?

I missing my PBS-HD. If I turn my yagi away from RP and point it toward Mt. Morrision, will I likely be able to get 6-1 again?

I am not happy to climb around on the roof (I fell off once, playing with the antenna), so I would like some assurance that I have a chance to get the signal I am missing.

Thanks!

Mike
Wheat Ridge

I missing my PBS-HD.

Another member of the 5% who can't get KRMA-DT I see. :rolleyes:

I haven't posted here in a while...just checking in. Living in Fort Collins, there's not a whole lot for me to do HDTV-wise except for wait for the tower to be completed!

My date in the pool is still April 18, 2008!

-Glen

P.S. Want to say thanks to the forum owners too. The new color scheme is much easier to read!

I missing my PBS-HD. If I turn my yagi away from RP and point it toward Mt. Morrision, will I likely be able to get 6-1 again?

I am not happy to climb around on the roof (I fell off once, playing with the antenna), so I would like some assurance that I have a chance to get the signal I am missing.

Unless there's something physically blocking your signal from there.

I can receive them with an indoor antenna in Louisville, as long as it's pointed directly at Morrison; two degrees either way and KRMA-DT goes away with my indoor.

Haven't bothered repointing my main yagi pointed at RP.

Unless there's something physically blocking your signal from there.

I can receive them with an indoor antenna in Louisville, as long as it's pointed directly at Morrison; two degrees either way and KRMA-DT goes away with my indoor.

Haven't bothered repointing my main yagi pointed at RP.

Thanks -- I am getting my nets from DirecTV now, so I can turn the yagi away from RP. So far, no problems with DirecTV's signals.

Posting here since the forum for Denver Sat does not get many lookers.

My locals on D* have been getting more and more pixilazations (spelling??) and now are almost unwatchable. I don't have this issue on any other channels - whether HD or SD. I suspect my dish may be out of alignment for one of the new sats that went up last year that does the spot beams for HD locals. Anyone have any thoughts?

Posting here since the forum for Denver Sat does not get many lookers.

My locals on D* have been getting more and more pixilazations (spelling??) and now are almost unwatchable. I don't have this issue on any other channels - whether HD or SD. I suspect my dish may be out of alignment for one of the new sats that went up last year that does the spot beams for HD locals. Anyone have any thoughts?

I don't watch network a lot, but I have recorded some programming from some of the nets like Leno and Letterman at times using the D* channels and have not noticed that problem. I am not a great sample due to the limited use (especially during the summer with all the reruns), but it sounds like the problem 'may' be at your end. I have not seen any pixelization in general, and the pictures here are certainly watchable if not as good as the OTA stuff.

(I was about to recommend that you post at the Sat thread too, but I see you already did.....)

As far as the long wide ditch, I don't think that is the tower base. Tower bases are usually cylindrical holes in the ground.

I hate to disagree with the all-knowing foxeng, but tower base holes are not necessarily round. The mass of concrete that is underground is square. The local tower that was put up a few years ago has a square base. Here are photos of the plans of the base plan:

http://vidiot.com/images/TVTower/DSC02366a.gif
http://vidiot.com/images/TVTower/DSC02366b.gif

That was for a tower that was over 1200' tall. The base should be smaller for a smaller tower.

But, that said, the base probably would go into a square cutout in the ground, not a rectangular one.

We want more pics!!! I get great satisfaction that every new pic is like sticking a pin into a Voodoo doll of Deb.

Like I said, they needed me out there snapping photos everyday. I took hundreds of photos of the local construction and I started late. :D

I'm just a photo snapping fool.

... blue vertical bar issues with some progrmming ...

I've been behind in catching up here to see if you have gotten any further with the station. It appears not. I've also not looked at the GMDX sat feed in a while either. I just did and all of the streams are now correct. No vertical blue bar.

I wonder if the station complained. Did you tell them to complain to GDMX?

In any event, no one should be seeing the vertical blue bar on any of the various syndicated shows sent out via GDMX in LA.

I hate to disagree with the all-knowing foxeng, but tower base holes are not necessarily round. The mass of concrete that is underground is square. The local tower that was put up a few years ago has a square base. Here are photos of the plans of the base plan:

http://vidiot.com/images/TVTower/DSC02366a.gif
http://vidiot.com/images/TVTower/DSC02366b.gif

That was for a tower that was over 1200' tall. The base should be smaller for a smaller tower.

But, that said, the base probably would go into a square cutout in the ground, not a rectangular one.

Not to debate with the all knowing, all seeing Mr Video, but do you have ANY idea the depth a tower pylon goes for a 700 ft tower in varying soils/rocks? Depending on the height and load and soil type (MOST IMPORTANT), it could range anywhere from 10 ft to 100 ft DOWN and being anywhere from 3 feet in diameter to almost 10 feet in diameter. I do have first hand knowledge having just completed a 1100 ft tower not ON a mountain that carries FOUR TV antennas on it and that pylon went down 60 ft and was ROUND all the way (8 ft diameter squared off above ground for appearance) with NO square at the base 60 feet down. It doesn't matter what the shape of the hole is, but how much concrete (weight) you can put on the end to keep the tower from toppling over. (fulcrum arm movement).

Putting towers on mountains with lots of hard stable rock is more of how much concrete can you adhere to the rock and how deep you can go into the rock to get the needed adherence to keep the tower and load standing (using the mountain to do the work of the concrete off of a mountain). The images you provided probably could support a 1200 ft tower on a mountain, every site is different, but off of a mountain in normal soil, it couldn't support a 200 ft tower carrying a TV load.

Each tower location is unique. That is why when towers are priced, their foundations are priced separately and only after soil samples have been taken. If you are only going 10 to 15 feet down, a backhoe can do the work. If you are going down 30 or 40 or 50 or 60 feet or more, you use an auger machine. It is quicker and cheaper and doesn't disturb as much soil as digging with a backhoe or digging out a downward trench and having to put all that now loose soil back in.

A 900 ft tower I was involved with in 1989 on a mountain we didn't even dig a hole for the pylon. We just poured concrete on to the rock out and over the side and built up a 10 foot base to support the tower. We poured for 5 days straight. Over a million tons! I am glad I DIDN'T have to pay THAT concrete bill!!

The pictures of post 1115 clearly shows three cylindrical forms which might be related to the tower foundation.

--- CHAS

Those are inside where the building has been built. The building went in that spot next to the tunnel down to the tower.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=84574&d=1183269790

Putting towers on mountains with lots of hard stable rock is more of how much concrete can you adhere to the rock and how deep you can go into the rock to get the needed adherence to keep the tower and load standing (using the mountain to do the work of the concrete off of a mountain).

Thank you for all of the info. Notice how it took myu posting to get you to explain that, i.e., why the rectangular hole in the ground probably isn't the base. I knew you would respond back and definately wanted you to respond back. I probably should have worded the posting differently.

In any event, great info. And no, I wouldn't want to have paid for that concrete bill either. :)

It would be nice if the group put up a site plan drawing of where everything is supposed to go on that site. Then you all could follow along as to what is getting done where. Wouldn't the site plan be part of the county records and therefore available to the public?

Thank you for all of the info. Notice how it took myu posting to get you to explain that, i.e., why the rectangular hole in the ground probably isn't the base.

I never said it was. Glad I could I educate you on the finer points of tower installation.

I never said it was.

Hopefully I'm not getting confused. I believe a poster thought that the rectangular hole might be the base of the tower and you thought that it wasn't and that it would probably be a round hole. Do I not have that right?

Another member of the 5% who can't get KRMA-DT I see. :rolleyes:
If you didn't see the article in the Rocky (http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/movies/article/0,2792,DRMN_23_5687504,00.html), the percentage of viewers served by the Morrison digital transmitter is up to 98%, so now we're only 2%!.



On Aug. 2, KRMA-Channel 6 moved its digital transmitter from atop Republic Plaza in downtown Denver to Mount Morrison. This allowed its digital signal to reach 98 percent of the Front Range market currently being served by its analog signal. That's a big jump up from the 15 percent previously being reached.

"We first put our digital transmitter on top of Republic Plaza, which is 750 feet tall, and certainly not tall enough to replicate our current Channel 6 coverage area," explained James Morgese, president and general manager of Rocky Mountain PBS.

"Our analog transmitter is on Lookout Mountain. On (Feb. 17, 2009) we're supposed to turn off our analog transmitter, which means anyone who wants to watch over-the-air programming needs a digital receiver."

I feel so honored to be part of such a rarefied group...

By the way, the Rocky has an article (http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/movies/article/0,2792,DRMN_23_5687502,00.html) on KBDI as well:



Federal law requires that all U.S. TV broadcasters convert from analog to digital signals by Feb. 17, 2009. Viewers will need a digital converter box, not a new TV. (The boxes are expected to cost about $100.) KBDI-Channel 12 currently programs three digital channels, 24 hours a day.

• KBDI-DTV: Digital version of the KBDI analog signal

• KBDI-DOC: Documentary channel. Feature programs such as the film Winged Migration and other nonfiction shows from around the world.

• KBDI-MHZ: World view channel. News and programming from India, China, France, Britain, Russia and elsewhere.

With a blatant falsehood attached:



In other words, KBDI is getting a jump on changes that every TV station in the country will face in the near future. The multicast movement comes in anticipation of Feb. 17, 2009, when the federal government has mandated the end of all analog broadcasts. That means you'll no longer be able to get TV shows with rabbit ears. Even cable and satellite feeds will require TVs to have a digital converter to capture the signals.

If you didn't see the article in the Rocky (http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/movies/article/0,2792,DRMN_23_5687504,00.html), the percentage of viewers served by the Morrison digital transmitter is up to 98%, so now we're only 2%!.



I feel so honored to be part of such a rarefied group...

By the way, the Rocky has an article (http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/movies/article/0,2792,DRMN_23_5687502,00.html) on KBDI as well:



With a blatant falsehood attached:

I think it was a simple misquote by the Rocky. What he probably really said was the new signal allows them to reach 98% of the 15% covered by their current DT on the RP. It is a simple mistake.
:rolleyes:

Analog TV is easy to find a frequency reference for by channel. I am wondering what frequencies the Denver DTV stations are broadcasting at, specifically the 4 major networks. Can anybody point me to a place that has that information? Thanks.

Analog TV is easy to find a frequency reference for by channel. I am wondering what frequencies the Denver DTV stations are broadcasting at, specifically the 4 major networks. Can anybody point me to a place that has that information? Thanks.

Ernie's web page has that information.

Ernie's DTV web page (http://www.santellaproductions.com/dtv/contactinfo.htm)

Hopefully I'm not getting confused. I believe a poster thought that the rectangular hole might be the base of the tower and you thought that it wasn't and that it would probably be a round hole. Do I not have that right?

Depending on how deep it was going and how much soil they didn't want to disturb, and not having any first hand knowledge of what was bought by Cedar Lake in the way of foundation, I would guess it would be round since they seen to be able to dig in the soil fairly easily but it could have been dug back a backhoe as well if it didn't need to go deep. That is why I like lurking here to see the pictures!

Those are inside where the building has been built. The building went in that spot next to the tunnel down to the tower.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=84574&d=1183269790

Thanks Ernie.

--- CHAS

That is why I like lurking here to see the pictures!

What is sad is that they could be putting up lots and lots of pictures, but no. instead there is a drought when it comes to picture taking.

Actually, Denver is getting more pictures than Madison would have had, if I hadn't starting taking them to document the construction here in town. There were zero photos taken by either station. The chief engineer of 57 took some when the 57 analog stick was being hoisted to the top of the tower, but that was all I ever saw. I wasn't there all the time, as I did have to work M-F :D

Ernie's web page has that information.

When was the last time that the web site was updated?

It is so out-of-date that it is becoming ancient history :D

What is sad is that they could be putting up lots and lots of pictures, but no. instead there is a drought when it comes to picture taking.

Between 3 of us, we took over 3000 pictures when we built our new site 2 years ago. We did that because there were no pictures when the original site was built in 1963 and we decided we weren't going to let that happen again. Even did a time lapse of the project. 9 months in a about 6 minutes.

But when you have all this stuff going on with a deadline breathing down your back, picture documentation isn't really on your mind unless you have set things up before hand.

Between 3 of us, we took over 3000 pictures when we built our new site 2 years ago.

And I thought I took a bunch of photos. :) Are any of them on line anywhere?

But when you have all this stuff going on with a deadline breathing down your back, picture documentation isn't really on your mind unless you have set things up before hand.

I'm sure there would have been a few qualified volunteers here on the forum that would gladly have taken stills and/or video of the project AND signed an insurance waver. All that needed to happen was a posting to this topic :)

Hi, my name is Jim - I live in Milliken, near Greeley. I am at least 45 air miles from Denver.

I have posted a couple times regarding getting a dtv setup in my home, which I did in the last three months.

Is there anywhere, someone can get information on the LATEST technical stats of 4, 7, 9, and 20? I have been able to periodically receive them (mornings and late evenings are the best), but it appears the signal strength of those four channels has dropped significantly in the last several days. Does anyone really know what is going on and if the tower completion is still a guestimate? I have noticed various ones suggesting their own completion date. It probably won't be until the Federally mandated switch date in Feb. 09. I've also noticed the KRMA 6 signal being weak again. It seems they had a pretty strong signal for several weeks.

In my household, we are completely digital now - a Hisense dtv receiver and a Pansat fta digital satellite receiver. I can't receive any analogs anymore, so am really looking forward to this 'delay' becoming history.

Any comments appreciated.

The latest 'stat's are 4, 7, 9, 20 are all lower power from Republic Plaza (Downtown Denver) 2 is half-power from Lookout Mt. 31 is about that or a bit less from Lookout Mt. And 6 is now low-power from their brand-new Mt. Morrison antenna.

So, from your location, they are all pretty much S or slightly SW. The new tower construction seems to be going well. (No legal hanky-panky BS from sCARE as of late) They say early Spring '08. I'm still guessing Mid '08. Visually, the building on Lookout is at the closure stage, once they get that sealed, the insides can come together fast. I've heard the tower can go up pretty quick too, like 6 weeks (depending on weather and human barricades of sCARE followers)

Unfortunately, it sounds like KRMA is going to stay Low-power until the '09 cutoff.

That's the latest.

mrradiohead,

Also, you might consider an amplifier to boost your reception or possibly a larger antenna.
What's you antenna model/size? Also to note, shorter coax runs and no splitters also help.

Posting here since the forum for Denver Sat does not get many lookers.

My locals on D* have been getting more and more pixilazations (spelling??) and now are almost unwatchable. I don't have this issue on any other channels - whether HD or SD. I suspect my dish may be out of alignment for one of the new sats that went up last year that does the spot beams for HD locals. Anyone have any thoughts?

Hey Reggie:

If you are on DirecTV's protection plan, repointing your dish is free.

Hey Reggie:

If you are on DirecTV's protection plan, repointing your dish is free.

Thanks

I called D* and the guy was very nice - the fact that I did not report a issue till now (from the October install) limited his hands. He allowed me to add it - starting next month billing but will send a service guy out this Saturday. I was going to try the alignment myself and posted the reading on dbstalk. Even had a nice guy offer to come over to help align it. But in looking at all the set up process figured that I would go with the D* correcting this install. The other issue is the fact that the reading I believe have deteriorated from the original install - and there is no explanation I can come up with for that - as the macro blocking is very severe now and did not use to be so bad that I could not watch a show. Something else may be going on so the protection plan will resolve that issue. I looked at the cost of just one service visit of US$75 vs the plan for a year of US6$/month.

And I wanted them out before the new sat is turned on and Saturday service should be good timing wise.

Thanks
I looked at the cost of just one service visit of US$75 vs the plan for a year of US6$/month.

And I wanted them out before the new sat is turned on and Saturday service should be good timing wise.


One lightning strike and this will seem like a real bargain.

Oh, and have you ever tried to re-align a dish? It was difficult, but possible, in the 3 lnb days. I wouldn't touch it now!

As far as the new sat light up, 9-16 seems to be the best guess at the moment.

One lightning strike and this will seem like a real bargain.

Oh, and have you ever tried to re-align a dish? It was difficult, but possible, in the 3 lnb days. I wouldn't touch it now!

As far as the new sat light up, 9-16 seems to be the best guess at the moment.

I have put up three dishes with the 3 lnbs - I looked at install for the 5 LNBs and like you - I do not want to attempt it unless I have no other recourse. :)

Fingers crossed for the 16th - and for HD Speed Channel too.

Anybody having trouble with KDEV-DT? (RTN 11-1) I have totally lost their signal. I had been getting them at 70%. I've seen this station drop off the map a few times over the past few years for no reason.

Posted by mrvideo:
I've been behind in catching up here to see if you have gotten any further with the station. It appears not. I've also not looked at the GMDX sat feed in a while either. I just did and all of the streams are now correct. No vertical blue bar.

I wonder if the station complained. Did you tell them to complain to GDMX?

In any event, no one should be seeing the vertical blue bar on any of the various syndicated shows sent out via GDMX in LA.


The blue lines are gone on KUSA's shows such as Ellen & Entertainment Tonight. However, I was channel surfing about a week ago saw the blue line on a show (can't remember which one it was) on their sister station KTVD. It must have been a rerun of some type if the problem is now fixed.

Two other comments while I'm here --

- I noticed that KRMA's signal today is back up to the level it was before they moved to Mt. Morrison (with my antenna pointed at RP). I wonder if they temporarily shut down Morrision and switched back to RP.

- I have also lost KDEV DT-11. Seems like it's been down about a week now. I don't watch it much - usually catch an episode of Wild, Wild West on it once in a while. I tried to catch it last night - zero signal strength on my Insignia OTA tuner.

- I noticed that KRMA's signal today is back up to the level it was before they moved to Mt. Morrison (with my antenna pointed at RP). I wonder if they temporarily shut down Morrision and switched back to RP.



I got all excited today when I saw KRMA again. I'm thinking now that you are right that they are back on RP. It seems unlikely that I should be able to receive them from Morrison all of a sudden. It still amazes me that their PSIP is still totally messed up.

KRMA isn't even close to messed up PSIP compared to KDEV. They have never remapped their digital to analog 33 - they should be 33-1, not 11-1, and they've never provided any type of program or guide info. I've emailed them in the past but they never reply and never fix anything. They probably don't even know or care that we are their two most loyal viewers.:D

The blue lines are gone on KUSA's shows such as Ellen & Entertainment Tonight. However, I was channel surfing about a week ago saw the blue line on a show (can't remember which one it was) on their sister station KTVD. It must have been a rerun of some type if the problem is now fixed.

Entertainment Tonight should never have had the problem. It is a CBS/Paramount property and not fed by the Warner Bros. GDMX facility. Until several months ago, it was fed via analog C-Band. CBS/Paramount has finally converted all of their day&date programs to digital, with a lot higher bitrate than what GDMX is doing (< 4Mbps for 4:2:2 MPEG-2).

While working on some equipment setup problems, I looked at GDMX and the blue line problem is still gone, so they must have played something they had on the shelf.

KRMA isn't even close to messed up PSIP compared to KDEV. They have never remapped their digital to analog 33 - they should be 33-1, not 11-1, and they've never provided any type of program or guide info. I've emailed them in the past but they never reply and never fix anything. They probably don't even know or care that we are their two most loyal viewers.:D

Correct me if I am wrong, but aren't all stations that are broadcasting a digital signal required by law to have the program guide fully functional? Sounds like a call/e-mail to the FCC regarding their violation is in order, with a copy to them, to let them know that you have filed a complaint with the FCC.

KRMA isn't even close to messed up PSIP compared to KDEV. They have never remapped their digital to analog 33 - they should be 33-1, not 11-1, and they've never provided any type of program or guide info. I've emailed them in the past but they never reply and never fix anything. They probably don't even know or care that we are their two most loyal viewers.:D

At least KDEV is coming in on just 11-1 and 11-2. I use to see 18-4 thru 18-17 for KRMA back when I could get them. :confused:

- I noticed that KRMA's signal today is back up to the level it was before they moved to Mt. Morrison (with my antenna pointed at RP). I wonder if they temporarily shut down Morrision and switched back to RP.
Who knows what is temporary and what is permanent with these guys. But I am seeing the same thing - I now get them with my antenna that's pointed at RP, and not with my other antenna that's pointed at Lookout.

Signal back to blasting in with my Yagi pointed at RP, so I'd say they definitely swapped back for the work they were supposed to do several weeks back now (they were feeding the Morrison transmitter via microwave from RP, and they wanted to set up a proper studio to Morrison link.) Recall I had zero signal here from Morrison with the same antenna.

Right now I'm debating whether or not to bother adding them back to my ATSC channel lists.

Also, PSIP is indeed still messed up; still no 6-2 on a TiVO S3, and 18-1 to 18-19 are picked up in a scan.

It would almost be worth having sCARE riled up about the Morrison site if it meant they'd stay on RP. :D

For those who miss KDEV-DT (I never could get them, either) KDEV comes in rather well for me as NTSC UHF 39.

I'll be at the AVS party Friday night at CEDIA, anyone else attending?

I'll be at the AVS party Friday night at CEDIA, anyone else attending?
I wanted to go but got tied up with family plans Friday night :mad:

posted by mrvideo:
Correct me if I am wrong, but aren't all stations that are broadcasting a digital signal required by law to have the program guide fully functional? Sounds like a call/e-mail to the FCC regarding their violation is in order, with a copy to them, to let them know that you have filed a complaint with the FCC.


I believe you are correct. But I've seen posts elsewhere here on Avs that the FCC regards PSIP issues as #101 on their list of top 100 priorities.

posted by kucharsk:
For those who miss KDEV-DT (I never could get them, either) KDEV comes in rather well for me as NTSC UHF 39.


I knew that but it's good to point out this info for folks who can still tune NTSC. I do have a couple of TV's that are only digital so that solution doesn't work in that case. KDEV DT is technically out of Cheyenne so they are supposed to remap to their analog 33 out of Cheyenne. I presume that KDEV analog 39 will go dark on 2-17-09.

I wrote KRMA-DT when their signal dropped off my receiver in Fort Collins this week. Here is their reply:

We are currently working on the tower at Morrison Mountain. It should
be up and running again by this weekend. If you are still having
problems next week please contact us again.

Thank you for supporting Rocky Mountain PBS.

Arial Lancaster
Viewer Services Intern
Rocky Mountain PBS
1089 Bannock Street
Denver, CO 80203

So, I guess they are only transmitting from RP until this weekend.

So, I guess they are only transmitting from RP until this weekend.

Yeah! That means us in the L-burbs (Louisville,Lafayette,Longmont?) get to watch KRMA again for a few days. After that it sounds like we'll be in the dark at least until they go to full power in 2009 (?).

I finally got a reply from KRMA about my LACK of reception from the new Morrison antenna. They apologized and suggested reaiming my antenna (at best I get a broken up signal) or that perhaps I had a signal overload (very unlikely).
I holding out a glimmer of hope that the work they are doing this week will somehow improve reception for us in the L-burbs, but based on KRMA's message, it doesn't sound like it should.:(

I knew that but it's good to point out this info for folks who can still tune NTSC. I do have a couple of TV's that are only digital so that solution doesn't work in that case. KDEV DT is technically out of Cheyenne so they are supposed to remap to their analog 33 out of Cheyenne. I presume that KDEV analog 39 will go dark on 2-17-09.

I was looking at the notice posted 8/6/07 on the FCC website that Appendix B was part of. The notice was titled "FCC Announces Final Assignment of Digital Television Channels." and appears to have a document number of FCC 07-138. I saw the following in Appendix H which is part of the main notice.
14. The new DTV Table for which the Eighth Further Notice proposes modifications does not provide for channels for low power television stations. The Commission will address the digital transition for low power television (“LPTV”) stations in a separate proceeding. The statutory transition deadline established by Congress in 2006 – February 17, 2009 - applies only to full-power stations.21 One of the Commission’s goals in this proceeding is to permit full power stations to finalize their post-transition facilities by this rapidly approaching deadline. The Commission previously determined that it has discretion under 47 U.S.C. § 336(f)(4) to set the date by which analog operations of stations in the low power and translator service must cease.22 The Commission has stated that the intent is to ensure that low power and translator stations not be required to prematurely convert to digital operation in a manner that could disrupt their analog service or, more importantly, that might cause them to cease operation.23 The Commission decided not to establish a fixed termination date for the low power digital television transition until it resolved the issues concerning the transition of full-power television stations.24 The Commission has recognized that low power television stations are a valuable component of the nation’s television system and has stated its intention to facilitate, wherever possible, the digital transition of these stations.25
I believe that NTSC 39 is listed as Low Power station. I am no expert, but it looks to me like the 2-17-09 deadline may not apply to it.

Posted by kenavs:
I believe that NTSC 39 is listed as Low Power station. I am no expert, but it looks to me like the 2-17-09 deadline may not apply to it.

I believe you are correct. I forgot that KDEV analog is an LP. They've only got 35 kW ERP. But I have to wonder if they still may go dark since KDEV DT's coverage area pretty much completely overlaps the analog 39. What would be the point in converting to digital? Then again, KDVR operates KFCT, and I get them both and have never understood why KDVR operates a full power repeater, unless they want coverage into Wyoming. I guess we'll just have to wait and see on what KDEV does.

I'll be at the AVS party Friday night at CEDIA, anyone else attending?

I'm planning on attending. There is no RSVP or anything required, correct?

I'm planning on attending. There is no RSVP or anything required, correct?

No RSVP that I know of. I'm planning to be there as well.

I'm planning on going. Where are we all going to meet? Boettcher is a pretty big place, and if 500 people do make it, it won't be easy to find anyone.

I think I've got permission to go, so hopefully I'll be there too.

Mark - got any ideas on where to meet? I'm not real familiar with Boettcher.

I've never been to Boettcher Concert Hall. I didn't see anyone I knew last year and just wandered around until I found someone who looked as lost and lonely as I did. :o

It would be nice to meet up with some locals that have been to some of our local tours/events.

Yeah I'm not sure. I've been there, but it's been awhile. I should recognize Dave and Tim at least, and will probably recognize b5lurker (sorry, don't remember your name...been too long!). I suppose we can PM cell numbers around so that we can meet up that way.

I've been to just about every hall in the Performing Arts complex, except for the one this party is in (at least I don't remember being in it). I plan on taking the light rail from the 9 Mile station at around 6PM or so tomorrow. If anyone wants to meet beforehand at a bar/resturant, I'm up for that as well. I won't be at the conference, so I'm free all day tomorrow.

Steve

Ah, it's a pity KRMA's viewer services folks don't know what's going on in engineering.

I dropped them an email casually mentioning that it was nice to be able to receive KRMA-DT again while they're broadcasting from RP again, and that it will be disappointing to lose their signal again when they switch back to their Mt. Morrison site.

This was the response I received:


If you are receiving KRMA-DT now, it is coming from the Morrison
Mountain tower. Hopefully you will continue to receive KRMA-DT in the
foreseeable future.

Thank you for your support of Rocky Mountain PBS.


Whoops.

I know it's been a while since I posted, but I've been lurking and keeping up. Is anyone else as fed up with CBS and KCNC's volume differentials as I am? They are the only station that seems to struggle with this anymore. It drove me absolutely crazy during the Bronco game, having to turn my receiver up to -45 during the game and down to -60 during the commercials. Is there anything that can be done about that?

It's not just KCNC, it's most channels to some degree. I think its more to do with the programming. Commercials are just mixed as hot as they can be. And programming gets mixed lower or safer for peaks.

All in all KCNC/CBS did a p-poor job of broadcasting the Denver/Buffalo game today. Lapses in having the HD widescreen broadcast on-line were exacerbated by frequent loss of DD5.1 during the game itself. Coupled with many commercials not broadcast in DD5.1 (part of the reason for the volume swings) the audio experience was quite annoying. Too bad CBS has the NFL contract for AFC broadcasts, as I believe that Fox and NBC do a much better job. Just my 2-cents.

Too bad CBS has the NFL contract for AFC broadcasts, as I believe that Fox and NBC do a much better job. Just my 2-cents.

I disagree, the sound doesn't bother me at all on CBS. If I had to watch all the games on NBC with their unbearable pixellation, I'd wind up tuning in the analog broadcast.