All in all KCNC/CBS did a p-poor job of broadcasting the Denver/Buffalo game today. Lapses in having the HD widescreen broadcast on-line were exacerbated by frequent loss of DD5.1 during the game itself. Coupled with many commercials not broadcast in DD5.1 (part of the reason for the volume swings) the audio experience was quite annoying. Too bad CBS has the NFL contract for AFC broadcasts, as I believe that Fox and NBC do a much better job. Just my 2-cents.

Santellavision was right on the mark with his comment about commercial volume.

As for commercials being in DD5.1... any commercial that is an upconvert from the same NTSC commercial will not have DD5.1. And even if a HD commercial has DD5.1, I'll bet that it is still a lot "louder" than the program, because it too will be compressed to get as much volume out of it as poissible.

I disagree, the sound doesn't bother me at all on CBS. If I had to watch all the games on NBC with their unbearable pixellation, I'd wind up tuning in the analog broadcast.

It isn't NBC. I'll bet that the feed the NBC affiliates get doesn't contain any pixelization problems. NBC is using 8PSK modulation and only two HD streams on the bird. I wouldn't be surprised if the bitrate that the stations are receiving isn't near 30Mbps per video stream.

The problem is with the local affiliates multicasting. This has been discussed over and over in many places. The 1080i MPEG-2 stream is easily affected by a lack of bits more than 720p is. By adding those SD streams to the broadcast just plain hurts the HD video. The so-called managers at these stations (or head office for non-locally owned stations) that force them to have SD streams just do not care about the quality of their video.

Here is Madison, but the NBC and CBS affiliate has SD streams. The chief engineer at the NBC affiliate cranks back their weather stream when he can. When CBS was airing the final four basketball the local forum was full of complaints about pixelization. I didn't watch the game, but saw some postings before all of the after game stuff was over and tuned in the CBS sat feed and the local CBS affiliate. I saw nothing wrong on the sat feed and it only took moments to see crap on the local affiliate's HD video.

Bitch and moan to your local NBC affiliate. Once the cutover occurs and everyone will have to see this crap, maybe the **** will start hitting the fan. Complaining now will create that history of viewer problems with what is aired.

ATSC HD, as currently designed, IMHO, is barely able to handle 1080i when it has all of the available bits. Knock it down to 15 Mbps, or worse, and the signal starts to look crappy.

Last Monday's Heroes had definate problems. The chief engineer knows about them, as I made captures of those frames. His hands are tied, as he has to do the SD weather stream.

It isn't NBC.

Bitch and moan to your local NBC affiliate. Once the cutover occurs and everyone will have to see this crap, maybe the **** will start hitting the fan. Complaining now will create that history of viewer problems with what is aired.

ATSC HD, as currently designed, IMHO, is barely able to handle 1080i when it has all of the available bits. Knock it down to 15 Mbps, or worse, and the signal starts to look crappy.

Last Monday's Heroes had definate problems. The chief engineer knows about them, as I made captures of those frames. His hands are tied, as he has to do the SD weather stream.

Thanks, this is good info. I thought I read somewhere that is was NBC. I sent an email to the local NBC station, stating the problem and asked if they could cut the bitrate to the subchannel when airing a game. I just don't understand how this doesn't bother anyone else. I can see it on my 42 plasma from 10 feet away. On my projector, with a 110" screen, the picture is so bad to the point it is unwatchable for me because of the macroblocking.

I thought I read somewhere that is was NBC.

For someone to say with absolute certainty that the network feed is inferior, it would require one of two things to happen: 1) the person works at a NBC affiliate and is able to directly watch the incoming feed on an HD monitor or 2) they have a Ku-band system to which they've added a $5k receiver to get the NBC 8PSK feed. I'm not #1 and I can't afford #2.

My observations are based upon gather info over time. I don't have 100% proof either, but part of the observations have been via local affiliates who didn't and now do have SD streams and as previously mentioned, what happened with the local CBS affiliate via which I was able to see what NBC supplied.

BTW, If NBC wanted to provide crappy HD bitrate, all they had to do was stay with QPSK and double the streams. They went to 8PSK, which gave them more bits to work with. That is a plus in my book.

I sent an email to the local NBC station, stating the problem and asked if they could cut the bitrate to the subchannel when airing a game. I just don't understand how this doesn't bother anyone else. I can see it on my 42 plasma from 10 feet away. On my projector, with a 110" screen, the picture is so bad to the point it is unwatchable for me because of the macroblocking.

Sending the e-mail is a start. As far as I know, the e-mail has to become part of their official document. Physical letters are, but I don't know the rules on e-mail.

The real question is will anyone really notice?

Look at all the people receiving "HD" via DirecTV or DISH Network that have no issues with the quality they get; even pixellated ATSC looks better than what you get from either small dish service and yet most people gladly pay more for their "HD" tiers.

The NBC feed is not perfect coming in to the stations on these games.

And, I've seen our stat-mux pull the bitrate on the WeatherPlus subchannel down to almost un-recognizeable, to pump more bits to the HD. But, until the FCC gives us some new system that lets us run 45-50 MBps, I don't think we'll ever make fast-action sports look perfect. :)

Look at all the people receiving "HD" via DirecTV or DISH Network that have no issues with the quality they get; even pixellated ATSC looks better than what you get from either small dish service and yet most people gladly pay more for their "HD" tiers.

Unfortunately that is so true.

The NBC feed is not perfect coming in to the stations on these games.

Do you know what the bitrate is that each HD stream is getting on the feed? Our local chief engineer didn't know. Since I won't be getting a Trellis 8PSK consumer PCI/USB DVB-S receiver anytime soon, I can't see the streams via TSReader to know. The feed can't be as bad as everyone makes it out to be. While the CBS feed obviously isn't the NBC feed, last year when people were complaining, like they are now, I checked out a game and never saw any problems..

And, I've seen our stat-mux pull the bitrate on the WeatherPlus subchannel down to almost un-recognizeable, to pump more bits to the HD. But, until the FCC gives us some new system that lets us run 45-50 MBps, I don't think we'll ever make fast-action sports look perfect. :)

Our local station isn't using the stat mux. It seems that there are some HD sets out there that couldn't handle what the stat mux was doing. Don't know if those users ever got firmware updates to fix their receivers. All I know is that the station is at 15 Mbps.

It is unfortunate that ATSC can't go MPEG-4 (H.264?). As I understand it, to have the video look the same as it does under MPEG-2, a bitrate at half the rate would be used. So, based on that, a MPEG-4 bitrate of 15 Mbps is supposidly equal to a MPEG-2 bitrate of 30 Mbps.

The real question is will anyone really notice?

Look at all the people receiving "HD" via DirecTV or DISH Network that have no issues with the quality they get; even pixellated ATSC looks better than what you get from either small dish service and yet most people gladly pay more for their "HD" tiers.I may well be one of the people you are talking about when it comes to the MPEG-4 transmissions of my HD locals that I receive from DIRECTV. I find it very difficult to tell any difference with the naked eye between OTA and the MPEG-4 satellite feed.

Zero signal from KRMA-DT in Louisville; they must have switched back to their Mt. Morrison transmitter today.

I may well be one of the people you are talking about when it comes to the MPEG-4 transmissions of my HD locals that I receive from DIRECTV. I find it very difficult to tell any difference with the naked eye between OTA and the MPEG-4 satellite feed.
I don't know if D* is downressing HD locals to 1440x1080 or worse yet the way they do their other HD channels.

Zero signal from KRMA-DT in Louisville; they must have switched back to their Mt. Morrison transmitter today.

Funny-

I was prepared to get up on the deadly ladder to the roof and turn my yagi this weekend. They they fooled me by going back to RP.

So, now my plan is next weekend on the deadly ladder!

I may well be one of the people you are talking about when it comes to the MPEG-4 transmissions of my HD locals that I receive from DIRECTV. I find it very difficult to tell any difference with the naked eye between OTA and the MPEG-4 satellite feed.

I just got my dish realigned on Saturday and I have to agree with you (my signal strength went from 37 to 88 with the alignment). I was doing some comparisons afterwards and now I find it hard to see any difference - I use Channel 9 news as my benchmark.

Zero signal from KRMA-DT in Louisville; they must have switched back to their Mt. Morrison transmitter today.

Thanks for the conformation. 0% for me for KRMA in Northwest Longmont. Do you get KBDI? While I had my antenna turned to Morrison, I checked for 38-1. I was able to get a 14% signal, so at least it's possible for me to try and tweak for that. I'm showing a 38-3,38-4,38-5. Hopefully they will broadcast some HD eventually, I guess it is a money issue? Looks like I won't be watching KRMA for a long time, if ever. I'll probably turn my antenna to Lookout/Squaw(that's where KBDI is isn't it?) if the LCG stations move to the new tower right away. They are very close in degrees for me.

I wonder what the difference of line of sight for me is to Morrison/Squaw. I seem to remember that some in Longmont are getting the KRMA Morrison signal. I'm wondering why I'm getting 0% for KRMA and I can actually see a little wiff of KBDI.

If recent news articles are to be believed, KBDI does not plan to broadcast any HD; instead they are using the digital transition to multicast only.

KBDI-DT is indeed atop Squaw. I've never seen any signal from them here in Louisville; I'm shadowed by the foothills.

I called my wife, and she said KRMA-DTwas still coming in strong on our antenna that points at RP.

I can get the KBDI-DT signal, just barely, from outdoors on the west side of my house. Those GoogleEarth coverage maps place me right near the end of one of the "fingers" created by the shadow of Eldorado Mountain. But it would take more WAF points than I care to spend to put up another antenna just for KBDI. However I can pull in a pretty good picture on 12-0, which also comes from Squaw, so I wonder if it's just a question of power levels. Any chance they will increase the power after 2/09?

Yeah, KRMA-DT either was off the air for technical reasons or they switched back to RP for now.

They started coming in for me again around noon; I suspect there will be a lot of such outages as they test out the new link they're setting up to the Mt. Morrison transmitter.

I personally have never been able to receive a good, ghost-free picture from analog 12, let alone a hint of a signal from KBDI-DT.

I disagree, the sound doesn't bother me at all on CBS. If I had to watch all the games on NBC with their unbearable pixellation, I'd wind up tuning in the analog broadcast.

Watching the Dallas/NYG game last night I didn't see any of the pixilation of which you speak on my Samsung DLP HDTV. The broadcast was awesome in both audio and video, and no 480i instant replays.

Santellavision was right on the mark with his comment about commercial volume.

As for commercials being in DD5.1... any commercial that is an upconvert from the same NTSC commercial will not have DD5.1. And even if a HD commercial has DD5.1, I'll bet that it is still a lot "louder" than the program, because it too will be compressed to get as much volume out of it as poissible.

You apparently weren't paying attention to the game broadcast's sound as that is where the failures to maintain DD5.1 occurred quite frequently. CBS didn't have that problem with the US Open men's final, so they are capable of doing better.

IIRC Ernie or one of the other regulars on this forum dealt with KUSA's handling of a sub-channel in-depth over a year ago. IIRC the conclusion was that KUSA's equipment was automatically drawing down the bitrate to channel 9.2 as more is needed to support HDTV broadcasts on channel 9.1 and that KUSA welcomed input when that process wasn't producing an adequate HDTV broadcast. It's been at least a year since I've seen any problems with KUSA's HDTV PQ.

OTOH, for the past week or so, my Dish 811 receiver has been stuggling to lock KUSA-DT. The signal strength is down a few points, but still in the mid-80s. However, it takes up to twenty seconds or so for the channel to lock. This is the first time I've experienced this in almost 4 years of using my Dish 811 to receive KUSA-DT. I'm seeing a little more delay in locking KUSA-DT on my LG LST4200A.

I'm getting channel DTV channel 6.1 right now, so they must be back on RP. I can't receive them when they broadcast from Mt. Morrison.

Do you know what the bitrate is that each HD stream is getting on the feed? Our local chief engineer didn't know. Since I won't be getting a Trellis 8PSK consumer PCI/USB DVB-S receiver anytime soon, I can't see the streams via TSReader to know. The feed can't be as bad as everyone makes it out to be. While the CBS feed obviously isn't the NBC feed, last year when people were complaining, like they are now, I checked out a game and never saw any problems..

Our local station isn't using the stat mux. It seems that there are some HD sets out there that couldn't handle what the stat mux was doing. Don't know if those users ever got firmware updates to fix their receivers. All I know is that the station is at 15 Mbps.

It is unfortunate that ATSC can't go MPEG-4 (H.264?). As I understand it, to have the video look the same as it does under MPEG-2, a bitrate at half the rate would be used. So, based on that, a MPEG-4 bitrate of 15 Mbps is supposidly equal to a MPEG-2 bitrate of 30 Mbps.

My boss says that NBC is only using about half the 45 MBps for HDTV. I think they have three or four HD feeds on one transponder, in addition to WeatherPlus.

You know, we could used MPEG-4, but it would have to be a "non-broadcast" pay service. So, we'd have to get all the viewers who wanted HD to chip in every month. The rest would just get free MPEG-2 SDTV.

Watching the Dallas/NYG game last night I didn't see any of the pixilation of which you speak on my Samsung DLP HDTV. The broadcast was awesome in both audio and video, and no 480i instant replays.

I've tried 3 different receivers, and two different displays all with the same results. Went over to my friends house 2 weekends ago in Thornton and watched the golf tourny (nbc) on a samsung 27" lcd. As we were flipping around, a third friend from out of town asked why the pictured looked so washed out compared to what was showing on cbs. The macroblocking and poor picture was very evident but I never hinted at it, he brought it up on his own.

I can even see it on 9news right now, though it is not as pronounced. It is easily seen on any left/right pan of the camera.

Looks like I'm not the only one: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=905503

I wonder what the difference of line of sight for me is to Morrison/Squaw. I seem to remember that some in Longmont are getting the KRMA Morrison signal. I'm wondering why I'm getting 0% for KRMA and I can actually see a little wiff of KBDI.

I'm in southern Longmont, near 287 and Pike Rd. I am able to pick up KRMA from the Morrison location. I've got a CM4228 pointed towards RP (which picks up all of the channels pretty well, except for channel 7, which I can only receive at night), and I've got a Radio Shack UHF/VHF combo antenna pointed at Lookout. I'm not sure which antenna is picking up Morrison, but it comes in at about the same strength as it did from RP (although the signal is much more constantly the same strength, whereas the strength would fluctuate when they were broadcasting from RP).

In the line of site to Mount Morrison, I think that I might be a little further east than you are. Maybe there is a hole in a rock that I'm getting the signal through :)

And for KBDI, if I remember correctly, I think that I did turn my CM4228 at one time and received them, but unfortunately, my antenna rotor died and now I can't turn the antenna. And since it's on a 30-foot mast on top of my house, it's not going to get fixed!

The attached graph shows what channel 6 looks like from Morrison and from RP. The left side of the graph is while it was at Morrison, the right side is what it looks like from RP.

http://www.bearhunter.com/ch6.jpg

I'm in southern Longmont, near 287 and Pike Rd. I am able to pick up KRMA from the Morrison location. I've got a CM4228 pointed towards RP (which picks up all of the channels pretty well, except for channel 7, which I can only receive at night), and I've got a Radio Shack UHF/VHF combo antenna pointed at Lookout. I'm not sure which antenna is picking up Morrison, but it comes in at about the same strength as it did from RP (although the signal is much more constantly the same strength, whereas the strength would fluctuate when they were broadcasting from RP).

In the line of site to Mount Morrison, I think that I might be a little further east than you are. Maybe there is a hole in a rock that I'm getting the signal through :)

And for KBDI, if I remember correctly, I think that I did turn my CM4228 at one time and received them, but unfortunately, my antenna rotor died and now I can't turn the antenna. And since it's on a 30-foot mast on top of my house, it's not going to get fixed!

The attached graph shows what channel 6 looks like from Morrison and from RP. The left side of the graph is while it was at Morrison, the right side is what it looks like from RP.

http://www.bearhunter.com/ch6.jpg

Thanks for the great info. I'm starting to think I might have to elevate my antenna for Morrison. I've always been able to have my antenna low to the ground cause I have great line of sight to RP and DTV from Lookout is strong for me. I'll try and see if I can raise my antenna when they switch over. Thanks again.

Note that I can receive KRMA-DT in Louisville from Mt. Morrison, even with an indoor antenna, but in my case it must be pointed precisely at Mt. Morrison; if I aim the antenna a few degrees off towards either Lookout or RP, I don't receive a usable signal.

I suspect if I switched from a Yagi to something like the Channel Master 4221 (http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/cm4221.html) I might have better luck as it has better sidelobe performance than Yagis do.

Channel Master 4221:
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/4221.jpg

You apparently weren't paying attention to the game broadcast's sound as that is where the failures to maintain DD5.1 occurred quite frequently. CBS didn't have that problem with the US Open men's final, so they are capable of doing better.

I don't watch games. The comment was to commercial audio.

As for problems with audio during a sporting event, that is indeed fortunate. Out of curiousity, what were the indications that led you to believe that the game audio itself was having trouble.

It is not a solution for most..especially those looking to maximize the "home theater" experience when watching the Broncos...but I do it for other reasons, just listen to KOA for the audio. I missed all of the audio difficulties and heard what I think is better "play by play" and color commentary by doing that.

Just a thought...

Again, not a solution for everyone, but it works for me, and I don't have to suffer the insufferable bable of the CBS weenies.
:)
Phil

My boss says that NBC is only using about half the 45 MBps for HDTV. I think they have three or four HD feeds on one transponder, in addition to WeatherPlus.

The 45 Mbps has to be wrong. One can get 45 Mbps using QPSK. Hell, ABC does. Going 8PSK should give them something near 55-60 Mbps.

I forgot I had a source to look up the configuration. NBC is using two HD transponders. Each one has two HD feeds and Weather Plus. Each of the muxes contains the East feed, with the other feeds being Central/Mountain and West. With the bitrate requirement for the 480i Weather Plus being extremely low, I wouldn't expect it being allocated more then 6 Mbps, if not 5 or under.

I'm having some contacts see if they can get the mux datarate as well as the bitrates of each of the three video streams.

You know, we could used MPEG-4, but it would have to be a "non-broadcast" pay service. So, we'd have to get all the viewers who wanted HD to chip in every month. The rest would just get free MPEG-2 SDTV.

I'll bet you can get lead balloons to fly as well :D

...

The attached graph shows what channel 6 looks like from Morrison and from RP. The left side of the graph is while it was at Morrison, the right side is what it looks like from RP.



How did you acquire the signal strength data to make that graph?

--- CHAS

How did you acquire the signal strength data to make that graph?

--- CHAS

It's just a small Linux script that checks the signal on my HD-3000 ATSC tuner card. It then logs it in a database, changes channel, and checks the next signal. Then I have a PHP script to read the data from the database and draw the graph. It's a very simple script. But it does tie up the HD-3000 card all of the time, which is fine by me, because I never use it for anything else. My script also downloads the EPG data from each channel every 6 hours and puts that into the database as well. I then have another PHP script that parses that and shows me what is on and what is coming up.

Yeah, these are the strange things I do when I'm bored...

B.J.

You guys are always saying that OTA HD is so much better that cable/sat signals. I think I've noticed that the Ch 9 HD chopper shots, with the late afternoon shadows, has the best black level in town, at least on my old set. If you ever get a chance, take a look and see if you agree.

You guys are always saying that OTA HD is so much better that cable/sat signals. I think I've noticed that the Ch 9 HD chopper shots, with the late afternoon shadows, has the best black level in town, at least on my old set. If you ever get a chance, take a look and see if you agree.
For whatever reason, the signals from KUSA's helicopter look better than their studio shots do, where blacks actually seem to be a bit high in level at times.

Many a time I've been watching their news not that thrilled by the PQ, they switch to the copter, and wow.

No idea why; perhaps others here know.

It's just a small Linux script that checks the signal on my HD-3000 ATSC tuner card. ... Yeah, these are the strange things I do when I'm bored...

B.J.

Can you retrieve the video bit rate from your tuner card?

--- CHAS

Just got a copy of the latest City & Mountain News rag. I'm floored, not a single lie about the LCG tower! Well, actually, not a single word about the tower at all. This is the first issue without pages and pages of BS about how LCG is the devil and we're all gonna' die. Now she can go back to writing insipid stories about Lookout residents who raise ferrets or a new stop sign posted.

For whatever reason, the signals from KUSA's helicopter look better than their studio shots do, where blacks actually seem to be a bit high in level at times.

Many a time I've been watching their news not that thrilled by the PQ, they switch to the copter, and wow.

No idea why; perhaps others here know.

Sky9 HD looks much nicer than the studio cams on my set as well. Amelia Earhart ain't too shabby either.

Just got a copy of the latest City & Mountain News rag. I'm floored, not a single lie about the LCG tower! Well, actually, not a single word about the tower at all. This is the first issue without pages and pages of BS about how LCG is the devil and we're all gonna' die. Now she can go back to writing insipid stories about Lookout residents who raise ferrets or a new stop sign posted.

:eek:
No stories on the deaths caused by the new tower??? Maybe there are setting you up. Did they have any articles on any nearby schools with a lot of children (preferably pre-school or grade school) so that next month they can follow with an article about how they are all now in danger from falling towers or cancer causing RF radiation?

I guess to paraphrase the old joke,
How do you know when the LCG is lying?
When they release any official statements to the public.

I was planning to turn my antenna to Mt. Morrison, but since they are back to transmitting from RP, I e-mailed them for a new timetable. I want to be able to get Ken Burn's The War in HD starting the 23rd. Here's the response I got:

Unfortunately, we are having a problem getting the transmitter Mt
Morrison transmitter online. Currently we are still broadcasting from
Republic Plaza, but they are hoping to have Mt. Morrison online by the
middle of next week. However I suggest that you check back with us
around the middle of next week. We apologize for making this so close
to our broadcast of Ken Burns - "The War".

Thank you for supporting Rocky Mountain PBS.

I don't watch games. The comment was to commercial audio.

As for problems with audio during a sporting event, that is indeed fortunate. Out of curiosity, what were the indications that led you to believe that the game audio itself was having trouble.

Sound level and tone changes tell the human listener that something has changed. I then look at the DD5.1 indicator on my Sony A/V receiver and either see it noting (message across the screen) that the broadcast is now in DD3/2.1 or DD2.0. The game broadcast should all be DD5.1, but often after commercials, it took several minutes for the DD5.1 to resume. Then they frequently lost the DD5.1 again during instant replays or when they switched back from a game official's on-field call. It was on and off frequently during the game and because of the volume/tone change associated with the switching between the two modes, it was very annoying.

I know about the issues with the audio during commercials so I just mute the broadcast during commercials. However, why is that other networks can get their commercials into DD5.1 during a DD5.1 content broadcast like NFL football, but CBS can't seem to do it. CBS did do it for the US Open broadcast that followed the game, so I know they can do it if they try/care.

For someone to say with absolute certainty that the network feed is inferior, it would require one of two things to happen: 1) the person works at a NBC affiliate and is able to directly watch the incoming feed on an HD monitor or 2) they have a Ku-band system to which they've added a $5k receiver to get the NBC 8PSK feed. I'm not #1 and I can't afford #2.

My observations are based upon gather info over time. I don't have 100% proof either, but part of the observations have been via local affiliates who didn't and now do have SD streams and as previously mentioned, what happened with the local CBS affiliate via which I was able to see what NBC supplied.

BTW, If NBC wanted to provide crappy HD bitrate, all they had to do was stay with QPSK and double the streams. They went to 8PSK, which gave them more bits to work with. That is a plus in my book. It is beyond pathetic



Sending the e-mail is a start. As far as I know, the e-mail has to become part of their official document. Physical letters are, but I don't know the rules on e-mail.

Ok, going on your idea that it is not NBC, I decided to test football on another HD station. Since KDVR-DT 31-1 and KCNC-DT 4-1, other channels in the Denver area that show football don't have subchannels, I aimed at KGWN-DT 5-1 Cheyenne(CBS). KGWN has a subchannel 5-2 that seems like it is just a 4:3 version of 5-1. I tuned in the Tennessee/Florida game. Holy mackerel, I thought KUSA-DT 9-1 had macroblocking, this was 10 times worse. I didn't think it could get worse than 9-1, boy was I wrong. Weather minus(9-2) must be taking a lot less bandwith than 5-2. This is by far the worst picture I have ever seen. The pixellation was unbelievable, especially on shots with players against the crowd. People look liked big blocks. If any other stations that show sports get subchannels, we are in BIG trouble. You thought weather minus was a waste, what about a subchannel that is just a 4:3 version of the main channel. I can't even think of a reason why you would do that. These subs just need to be turned off during the games if they insist on carrying them.

You thought weather minus was a waste, what about a subchannel that is just a 4:3 version of the main channel.
I can't help but believe this may become more common as we get closer to the cutoff.

Why? The 4:3 version would be distributed as the local signal for the cable company's subscribers that just have 4:3 receivers.

It would either be that or transmitting the local channel in letterbox, and we already know how letterbox upsets a lot of people with 4:3 sets, so the easiest way to provide the cable company with a 4:3 image once NTSC goes away is to transmit it as a digital subchannel.

I can't help but believe this may become more common as we get closer to the cutoff.

Why? The 4:3 version would be distributed as the local signal for the cable company's subscribers that just have 4:3 receivers.

It would either be that or transmitting the local channel in letterbox, and we already know how letterbox upsets a lot of people with 4:3 sets, so the easiest way to provide the cable company with a 4:3 image once NTSC goes away is to transmit it as a digital subchannel.

Why would you have to have it as a subchannel? I can't believe that a station would make a 4:3 channel for the cable co and have to broadcast it as well.

I can't help but believe this may become more common as we get closer to the cutoff.

Why? The 4:3 version would be distributed as the local signal for the cable company's subscribers that just have 4:3 receivers.

It would either be that or transmitting the local channel in letterbox, and we already know how letterbox upsets a lot of people with 4:3 sets, so the easiest way to provide the cable company with a 4:3 image once NTSC goes away is to transmit it as a digital subchannel.

Another possibility is that the cable company will do the cropping of the 16x9 signal to 4x3. It won't be perfect, but better than consuming channel bandwidth on essentially redundant information. After all, the coupon-OTA receivers will have to do the same thing. I don't know (doubt) the protocols support transmission of cropping information, but it would surely be less bandwidth than a compressed 4x3 signal.

I think with the latest FCC rulemaking on this the cable companies will have until 2012 to get all customers on a Digital base.

I haven't followed this thread in about 5 years, but just bought a Samsung DTB-H260F STB and $20 Philips antenna (rabbit ears & UHF loop combo) to test out my OTA reception before I build a Myth HTPC-PVR. Well, I'm only 8 miles SE of downtown, but I get most of the channels at around 5 (scale of 10) bars and KUSA HD at up to 7 bars. However, I either get KCNC HD at 3-4 bars or KMGH HD at 2-4 bars depending on how I rotate the UHF antenna. So it seems like I'm stuck with either getting KCNC HD and no picture on KMGH HD or vice versa. The STB doesn't even pick up KTVD HD on auto-scan. Do you guys have an official estimate date for when the tower will be completed and broadcasting? I don't want to mess with a huge antenna either inside the house, in the attic, or on the roof, if the little one will work once they start broadcasting full power. Hell, I've waited 5 years - I can wait 5 more months. Since the STB also decodes QAM, and I currently have Comcast HD with their Motorola HD-PVR for a 3 month special which expires before the end of the month, I decided to try out it's QAM capability, but it can't pick up KCNC HD or KWGN HD or KTVD HD, so I'll be also relying on OTA for those 3 channels even with QAM. Also any idea why I can't get KTVD HD through either OTA or QAM (I do get it through Comcast's HD STB/PVR)?

The best guess for tower completion is June -Sept. of 2008.
You can follow the infrequent updates here:

http://www.hdtvcolorado.com/

the local Comcast thread may be able to answer your QAM question:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=11648582#post11648582

KTVD (UPN 20) is broadcasting low power from Republic Plaza and most that can pick up the other stations on Republic (4,7,9) can also pick up KTVD on 20-1. A larger antenna would solve your reception problems pretty easily but I understand your reluctance.
KTVD is not offered in the DirecTv locals package, I'm not sure about Comcast.

Sound level and tone changes tell the human listener that something has changed. I then look at the DD5.1 indicator on my Sony A/V receiver and either see it noting (message across the screen) that the broadcast is now in DD3/2.1 or DD2.0. The game broadcast should all be DD5.1, but often after commercials, it took several minutes for the DD5.1 to resume. Then they frequently lost the DD5.1 again during instant replays or when they switched back from a game official's on-field call. It was on and off frequently during the game and because of the volume/tone change associated with the switching between the two modes, it was very annoying.

That should have been unfortunate in my posting, not fortunate.

What was happening just doesn't make any sense. Since I don't watch sports, I wouldn't have heard what you are describing. I also do not have my stuff connected to get DD5.1 out. That said, if it was going in and out of DD5.1, the audio differences would still be heard when listening via DD2.0 Pro-Logic. I'd have to look at either the ATSC card audio indicator or the STB tuner to see if the local station was bouncing back and forth. That said, if I were to watch CBS sports, it would be via their network feed and with that I can only get DD2.0. CBS uses Dolby-E and only Dolby-E to get DD5.1 to their affiliates. So I do not know if the DD2.0 audio stream would have different audio levels.

Now, since the control of DD5.1/DD2.0 is in the data structure of Dolby-E, if I understand it correctly, the local station would bounce in and out of the two modes based upon the Dolby-E control bits (because CBS has problems internally to cause it), or a malfunction at the local station. I do not know if the Dolby-E originates at the game location, or is done in New York. I know that ABC/ESPN does do the Dolby-E at the game location.

SInce you note below that the following event was OK, my guess is that they had problems at the game location assembling the Dolby-E content, etc.

I know about the issues with the audio during commercials so I just mute the broadcast during commercials. However, why is that other networks can get their commercials into DD5.1 during a DD5.1 content broadcast like NFL football, but CBS can't seem to do it. CBS did do it for the US Open broadcast that followed the game, so I know they can do it if they try/care.

Damn good questions without a damn good answer. I discovered that during primetime, ABC programming even sends out the commercials in DD5.1. I only discovered that recently because software I use to do editing of the computer files, VideoReDo, recently added an option that shows the audio as being one color for DD5.1 and a different color for DD2.0 and this is shown audio frame by audio frame. ABC, BTW, sends out Dolby-E as well as a DD5.1 stream. Don't know what NBC does.

If it is indeed CBS net having trouble and not the local affiliate, there is no excuse. If it happens a lot during a game, send me e-mail and I'll bring up my ATSC tuner card and capture the game and then analyze the audio afterwards to see if there is a problem. Some time references as to where the problem occurs (using the time remaining as a good reference) would be perfect, then I can go there quickly and see what VRD tells me the audio is. Then we'll know if it is net or local.

I'll be happy to help you determine what the source of the problem is (net or local).

I aimed at KGWN-DT 5-1 Cheyenne(CBS). KGWN has a subchannel 5-2 that seems like it is just a 4:3 version of 5-1. I tuned in the Tennessee/Florida game. Holy mackerel, I thought KUSA-DT 9-1 had macroblocking, this was 10 times worse.

Using CBS as a station to look at was a good choice, as I have experience looking at their network feed, as previously posted. Our local CBS affiliate has The CW on their SD stream, or other programming during non CW primetime. So there is more bandwidth being eaten up. Right now, they are doing about 3.4 Mbps for the SD stream and 10.7 Mbps for the HD stream, but the HD is 4:3 upconvert, so there is lots of black.

In any event, when there was a complaint locally about the horrible macroblocking during the basketball finals, I looked. I couldn't find any problems with the sat feed. But, it only took seconds of watching the local affiliate to see what you saw and that was lots of crap.

Welcome to 1080i with secondary, or more, SD streams added to the existing HD stream.

Why would you have to have it as a subchannel? I can't believe that a station would make a 4:3 channel for the cable co and have to broadcast it as well.

Definately seems like a waste. Use the HD video and downconvert, with centercutting, if they believe the customers will bitch, or just downconvert and letterbox. No need to waste precious OTA bandwidth.

I don't know (doubt) the protocols support transmission of cropping information, but it would surely be less bandwidth than a compressed 4x3 signal.

They don't, that I know of. No need. If the box has enough smarts, it will have a zoom feature, which will drop the letterbox and centercut/enlarge the video. I know my more expensive Samsung STB has that feature.

But, with the converter boxes being built as cheaply as possible, they will only be letterbox output or only zoom/centercut. We'll soon find out if they'll let the viewer decide.

Definately seems like a waste. Use the HD video and downconvert, with centercutting, if they believe the customers will bitch, or just downconvert and letterbox. No need to waste precious OTA bandwidth.
The problem is centercutting may require investment on the cable company's part; passing on the digital signal on one of their 4:3 channels solely uses existing infrastructure.

But it really all depends on the capabilities of the ATSC tuners the cable company plugs into their head end. Most consumer ATSC set top boxes have had the option of emitting 16:9 HD in SD as letterbox or zoomed 4:3; I can't believe the commercial receivers cable companies would use wouldn't have the same features.

Then again, for cable companies being fed via fiber the station can simply centercut in-house.

Ok, going on your idea that it is not NBC, I decided to test football on another HD station. Since KDVR-DT 31-1 and KCNC-DT 4-1, other channels in the Denver area that show football don't have subchannels, I aimed at KGWN-DT 5-1 Cheyenne(CBS). KGWN has a subchannel 5-2 that seems like it is just a 4:3 version of 5-1. I tuned in the Tennessee/Florida game. Holy mackerel, I thought KUSA-DT 9-1 had macroblocking, this was 10 times worse. I didn't think it could get worse than 9-1, boy was I wrong. Weather minus(9-2) must be taking a lot less bandwith than 5-2. This is by far the worst picture I have ever seen. The pixellation was unbelievable, especially on shots with players against the crowd. People look liked big blocks. If any other stations that show sports get subchannels, we are in BIG trouble. You thought weather minus was a waste, what about a subchannel that is just a 4:3 version of the main channel. I can't even think of a reason why you would do that. These subs just need to be turned off during the games if they insist on carrying them.

I wasn't aware of the picture degradation caused by subchannels. I hooked up my new Samsung DTB-H260F STB just after the Broncos game and did a couple of quick comparisons of the Sun night football game on OTA KUSA HD v. my Comcast Motorola HD STB to see how much better OTA was compared to Comcast and didn't see any difference. I'll have to try comparing KCNC HD OTA v. Comcast during the next Broncos game...

The problem is centercutting may require investment on the cable company's part; passing on the digital signal on one of their 4:3 channels solely uses existing infrastructure.

Investment, what a concept. Wait, it is a cable company :D

But it really all depends on the capabilities of the ATSC tuners the cable company plugs into their head end. Most consumer ATSC set top boxes have had the option of emitting 16:9 HD in SD as letterbox or zoomed 4:3; I can't believe the commercial receivers cable companies would use wouldn't have the same features.

Agreed. It wouldn't make any sense at all.

Then again, for cable companies being fed being fiber the station can simply centercut in-house.

Here is where there might be a rub. If the station is feeding via fiber and they are feeding both the HD and SD streams, will the station still be producing an internal SD stream, or will they be HD only, as in SDI-HD? If so, who would pay for the downconvert box? The station or the cableco or both?

I wasn't aware of the picture degradation caused by subchannels.

It is a matter of physics. 1080i sports programming (because of all the rapid motion that can happen) requires more bits to create a MPEG-2 file with the least amount of visually detectable errors. Because MPEG-2 is a lossy compression scheme, one can never get back exactly what the HD camera is producing.

The ATSC specification requires that the digital payload fit within a 6 MHz channel. That unfortunately limits the digital payload to 19.2 Mbps. I've said from day one that it should have been specified using a 12 MHz channel. Due to the limited number of OTA channels, it would have been impossible to have 18 Mhz used by each station until cutover. Flash cutover maybe, but not gradual. Because of the limited bandwidth, 1080i just barely works with the 17, or so, Mbps that can be given to the video.

Then the suits that run these stations had the brilliant idea, because they saw $$$, to add a SD stream to the already bit-starved HD service. When you add a 4 Mbps stream, you have to take those bits away from the HD stream, knocking it down to about 13 Mbps. For 1080i video with constant image changes, there aren't enough bits to describe the image, resulting in macroblocking (large visible blocks). It is basically the same as taking a digital photograph that is 1920x1080, reducing it to 480x270 and then enlarging it to fit the 1920x1080 image area. You end up with these large pixel blocks.

MPEG-2 is made up of 16x16 blocks, or macroblocks. If there aren't enough bits to describe those 16x16 pixels, you might end up with a 8x8, or even worse, 4x4, description of that area of the screen,

Right now, because a majority of the viewers are still watching via analog, there aren't enough viewers complaining about the image quality. But, come analog shutoff where everyone will have to see the digital image, even those viewers with digital to analog converter boxes will end up seeing those macroblocks and will start complaining. Maybe, just maybe, those damn SD streams will be turned off. Then again, I'm going to win a $300mil powerball drawing as well :D

I hooked up my new Samsung DTB-H260F STB just after the Broncos game and did a couple of quick comparisons of the Sun night football game on OTA KUSA HD v. my Comcast Motorola HD STB to see how much better OTA was compared to Comcast and didn't see any difference. I wouldn't expect you to see any difference. AFAIK, Comcast is working with the same bitstream that is broadcast on 9-1 without any additional rate shaping. Whatever quality is lost due to the bits given to Weather Plus would be the same either OTA or via cable.

Right now, they are doing about 3.4 Mbps for the SD stream and 10.7 Mbps for the HD stream, but the HD is 4:3 upconvert, so there is lots of black.


That only adds up to 14.1 Mbps. Is that all there making use of or did I miss something?


I wasn't aware of the picture degradation caused by subchannels.

Lots of people don't seem to notice it, but for me, I can see it from across the room on my plasma. I don't even bother watching on the projector because of such a large screen (110"), it just magnifies the problem and makes it all the worse. If you can't see it, get really close to your screen, watch some football. You'll see what we are talking about.


The ATSC specification requires that the digital payload fit within a 6 MHz channel. That unfortunately limits the digital payload to 19.2 Mbps. I've said from day one that it should have been specified using a 12 MHz channel.

It is truly amazing! How many years and years did we wait for an upgrade from NTSC? The bottom line is this is NOT an upgrade. Right now analog looks better on my projector than bit starved 9-1 does. :rolleyes:

That only adds up to 14.1 Mbps. Is that all there making use of or did I miss something?

You added up correctly. It looks like they are using VBR for the HD stream and because it was an upconverted 4:3 sitcom,, i.e., not exactly action material, the high bitrate wasn't needed.

Lots of people don't seem to notice it, but for me, I can see it from across the room on my plasma. I don't even bother watching on the projector because of such a large screen (110"), it just magnifies the problem and makes it all the worse. If you can't see it, get really close to your screen, watch some football. You'll see what we are talking about.

I'm currently using a 1280x1024 LCD video/computer monitor and have no trouble at all seeing this stuff. And yes, if the were a lot larger, like yours, it would really look crappy.

It is truly amazing! How many years and years did we wait for an upgrade from NTSC? The bottom line is this is NOT an upgrade. Right now analog looks better on my projector than bit starved 9-1 does. :rolleyes:

If you could only see what the networks send to the affiliates (except for Fox), you'd be proud to show off your 110" screen. The except for Fox note is that what you see with them, is exactly what they send to the affiliates. We poor consumers are never going to see what it can look like, via OTA, cable or pizza-pan dish. While this doesn't help sports programming, the Hi-Def DVD, at 1080p, is where you'll get to see quality video, where MPEG-4 can be used.

Looks like KRMA-DT has moved back to Mt. Morrision as of sometime yesterday.

Looks like KRMA-DT has moved back to Mt. Morrision as of sometime yesterday.

I'm still seeing a signal from them pointed at RP Saturday morning. I don't know if that means I can pick them up from Morrison now or they are still on RP.

I'm still seeing a signal from them pointed at RP Saturday morning. I don't know if that means I can pick them up from Morrison now or they are still on RP.Strange. I think they may have switched back to RP this morning, sometime between my post and yours. I am now getting them on my RP antenna and not my LOM antenna, but yesterday and this morning that was reversed.

Interesting. I was getting them last time the were transmitting from Morrison with my antenna pointed at RP just fine. Last night I had to point towards Morrison to get a sniff. Once I did, I got a decent signal, but not as good as it is from RP, nor as good as the last time they were coming off of Morrison. I haven't tried today.

Anyone else having trouble getting a KBDI signal today? All I'm getting is a test pattern and it says "Video Lock Error, KBDI Analog Simulcas" from my EyeTV software.

The KCNC/CBS HD telecast of the Bronco game today was terrible. Constant blocking every 20 to 30 seconds and audio breakups. Why do they even bother?

I checked it both OTA and on DirecTV on both my HR10 & HR 20 with the same results.

I would be interested in hearing KCNC's explanation. :(

The KCNC/CBS HD telecast of the Bronco game today was terrible. Constant blocking every 20 to 30 seconds and audio breakups. (Almost as bad as the game itself.

I had the same problems with KCNC today. Thought it was my antenna, so I fiddled with the rotor but it didn't help. When I switched to E*, it wasn't any better. Apparently, KKTV in the Springs had the same problem from posts on that thread. They blamed KKTV's multicasting, but KCNC doesn't multicast. Wonder if it was a CBS problem.

Anyone else having trouble getting a KBDI signal today? All I'm getting is a test pattern and it says "Video Lock Error, KBDI Analog Simulcas" from my EyeTV software.

I tried to record the Stevie Ray Vaughn concert last night off of the D* SD channel (don't get the OTA DTV signal here) and appparently got an hour or so of the same test pattern. I guess KBDI must have been off the air on both SD and HD versions.

I had the same problems with KCNC today. Thought it was my antenna, so I fiddled with the rotor but it didn't help. When I switched to E*, it wasn't any better. Apparently, KKTV in the Springs had the same problem from posts on that thread. They blamed KKTV's multicasting, but KCNC doesn't multicast. Wonder if it was a CBS problem.

I recorded the game off of the D* local HD channels and noticed the same pixellization problems etc. I also have noted a few posts on dbstalk which indicated that the NFLST version had similar problems. It sounds like this was a bad day for the national CBS feed as well as the local football team. Fortunately or unfortunately as the case may be, the game recording was not worth keeping anyway, or even worth much of a second look. :(
Oh well, this may be a great weekend compared to the next one, with Oklahoma playing at CU and the Broncos facing Indy, it could be a LONG weekend for local football fans.

I also have noted a few posts on dbstalk which indicated that the NFLST version had similar problems. It sounds like this was a bad day for the national CBS feed as well as the local football team.

I was up at my daughter's place SA/SU and because her husband is a Packer fan, the game was obviously on the TV. I also noticed there were plenty of times when there was macroblocking that had nothing to do with the game. At times, the audio even dropped out for a moment at the same location in time. They are on Time-Warner cable and I thought it was either the cable system, or the local affiliate.

Since I was not at home, I couldn't tune in the actual CBS net feed to find out. Then again, even if I was at home, I wouldn't have had it on :D

BTW, I did get out of Dodge before the game was over, in order to avoid the traffic.

Either KRMA-DT's fooling with their transmitter again or they've moved back to Mt. Morrison today as I'm currently getting "No Signal" from them but don't have any issues with any of the other RP signals.

Either KRMA-DT's fooling with their transmitter again or they've moved back to Mt. Morrison today as I'm currently getting "No Signal" from them but don't have any issues with any of the other RP signals.Just checked a minute ago, and I am still getting them with my RP antenna.

Just checked a minute ago, and I am still getting them with my RP antenna.
Yep, they were gone from around 11:00 AM and returned, from RP, later in the afternoon.

I can only wonder if I'll get to see the balance of The War in HD before they switch back to Morrison.

Yep, they were gone from around 11:00 AM and returned, from RP, later in the afternoon.

I can only wonder if I'll get to see the balance of The War in HD before they switch back to Morrison.

I hope they leave it alone, at least though next week. I complained to them about moving it around during the premiere of such an important series. Then I set my second machine to record both HD and SD, just in case.

I hope they leave it alone, at least though next week. I complained to them about moving it around during the premiere of such an important series. Then I set my second machine to record both HD and SD, just in case.No love for you, MR. Looks like they switched back to Mt. Morrison sometime today.

Can anyone recommend a reasonable Broomfield-area antenna to purchase for picking up the stations broadcasting from RP? I'm on top of a hill in Broomfield (the two blue watertower area near 136th and Main). The only stations I care about are ABC, NBC, and CBS.

Is this doable with a inside-attic antenna, or is that asking too much?

If I need to go outside, so be it. Do I have to be line-of-sight? I could get above the neighbors with a short mast, but I'm wondering if I need to. Their house is about 30 feet away. We're both equal height two-stories, but it's downhill to RP so I'd have to point "through" their house without a mast. Would an amplifier be needed from Broomfield? AntennaWeb says I need a large directional with amp, but my other neighbor claims he can (rarely) pick up these digital stations with a simple indoor rabbit ears (he does have a UHF loop on that). It just seems a wide variation to go from practical experience indoor marginal reception, to recommended outdoor large directional with amp. Can anyone tell me what practical experience shows as needed? I know, no promises, just a general hint might help me though. Where to buy the antenna? Lots of online places I've found, is there anything local?

Thinking ahead a few years, I already have an attic mounted medium directional VHF antenna that picks up SD locals just fine. I assume this will be good enough for digital come 2009 - is that correct?

Thanks

Can anyone recommend a reasonable Broomfield-area antenna to purchase for picking up the stations broadcasting from RP? I'm on top of a hill in Broomfield (the two blue watertower area near 136th and Main). The only stations I care about are ABC, NBC, and CBS.

Is this doable with a inside-attic antenna, or is that asking too much?

If I need to go outside, so be it. Do I have to be line-of-sight? I could get above the neighbors with a short mast, but I'm wondering if I need to. Their house is about 30 feet away. We're both equal height two-stories, but it's downhill to RP so I'd have to point "through" their house without a mast. Would an amplifier be needed from Broomfield? AntennaWeb says I need a large directional with amp, but my other neighbor claims he can (rarely) pick up these digital stations with a simple indoor rabbit ears (he does have a UHF loop on that). It just seems a wide variation to go from practical experience indoor marginal reception, to recommended outdoor large directional with amp. Can anyone tell me what practical experience shows as needed? I know, no promises, just a general hint might help me though. Where to buy the antenna? Lots of online places I've found, is there anything local?

Thinking ahead a few years, I already have an attic mounted medium directional VHF antenna that picks up SD locals just fine. I assume this will be good enough for digital come 2009 - is that correct?

Thanks

I am west of you in the Heatherwood/Gunbarrel section of Boulder and I use the RadioShack UHF only antenna for the RP stations. If it doesn't work you can always return it, so it is a good place to start.
Radio Shack UHF antenna (http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103088&cp=2032057.2032187.2032189.2032205&fbn=Type%2FTV+boom+antennas&f=PAD%2FProduct+Type%2FTV+boom+antennas&fbc=1&parentPage=family)
I get everything just fine with the antenna lashed to a post on my outdoor deck. It was a 'temporary' setup I put up about 5 or 6 years ago. You can give the attic a try, but I would 'guess' with the relatively weak signals from the RP you might have a problem on at least one or two of the stations. If you can find a temporary outdoor setup you will likely have more success. The real truth is, as many have mentioned in the thread, these signals are often a matter of inches either way and pointing can be pretty critical. You may want to try a few locations outside just holding the antenna to see if you are getting anything close to what you need before you actually mount something. My antenna pointing at RP still has enough gain in the sidelobes to pick up eveything on Lookout (no Mt. Morrison though) but I doubt you have the same angles from Lookout. Keep the cable run as short and direct as possible and you may not need an amplifier, I don't use one here.

As for the future, you will still need a VHF/UHF antenna for the attic, but once the signals are full power you may find things pretty forgiving. No one can say for sure until that day arrives. It may be that even rabbit ears will work in many locations at full power.

Frankly, a Silver Sensor, if you can find one, will probably work.

If you want an outdoor or attic antenna, I'd recommend a Channel Master 4221 (http://www.amazon.com/Channel-Master-Mid-range-outdoor-rooftop/dp/B000FVTPX2):

http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/41Xgv7i4LaL._AA280_.jpg

No love for you, MR. Looks like they switched back to Mt. Morrison sometime today.
Yep - back to a big ol' goose egg on the signal strength meter for me.

Guess I'll watch The War on DVD, instead.

I am west of you in the Heatherwood/Gunbarrel section of Boulder and I use the RadioShack UHF only antenna for the RP stations. If it doesn't work you can always return it, so it is a good place to start.
Radio Shack UHF antenna (http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103088&cp=2032057.2032187.2032189.2032205&fbn=Type%2FTV+boom+antennas&f=PAD%2FProduct+Type%2FTV+boom+antennas&fbc=1&parentPage=family)
I live a few blocks away from John, and I use the Channel Master 4228 to pick up the RP stations. I actually have two of them - one mounted outside on my deck and another up in my attic; I get all 4 of the RP stations reliabley with both antennas, and usually get the LOM stations as well.

I also recently intalled in my garage the RadioShack U75R which John mentioned. This one is pointed at LOM, and with that orientation I can receive KRMA-DT from Mt. Morrison, something that was not possible with the old antenna it replaced. I'm not able to get the RP stations with my U75R, but that's because of where I have it pointed, not the antenna itself.

From a high location in Broomfield, my guess is that ANY of the three antennas (CM4228, CM4221, or RS U75R) recently mentioned will work for RP if mounted outside, and will PROBABLY work even if mounted in the attic.

As for the future, you will still need a VHF/UHF antenna for the attic, but once the signals are full power you may find things pretty forgiving. No one can say for sure until that day arrives. It may be that even rabbit ears will work in many locations at full power.
As you say, no one can say for sure until that day arrives. But my "UHF-only" antennas bring in a very clear signal from analog 7 and 9, which are the only VHF stations I'll have to worry about after 2/09. So I am not anticipating having to replace antennas again.

Thanks JMartinko, kucharsk, and oxothuk for all the help on my Broomfield-antenna questions. You've given me a good headstart on what I should be looking for.

I'll try something in the attic first - simply because I'm already wired up to there and it will be simple to just see if it works (crossing my fingers!) Going outside won't be bad either. I'm having new Dish receivers installed Friday and I hear the two newer receivers only require a total of two leads coming down from the dish - I currently have four. So in theory, I can steal one of the extra leads I'll have come Friday and add about 20 feet more RG6 to take it further up the chimney to an outside UHF antenna.

Thanks JMartinko, kucharsk, and oxothuk for all the help on my Broomfield-antenna questions. You've given me a good headstart on what I should be looking for.

I'll try something in the attic first - simply because I'm already wired up to there and it will be simple to just see if it works (crossing my fingers!) Going outside won't be bad either. I'm having new Dish receivers installed Friday and I hear the two newer receivers only require a total of two leads coming down from the dish - I currently have four. So in theory, I can steal one of the extra leads I'll have come Friday and add about 20 feet more RG6 to take it further up the chimney to an outside UHF antenna.

Good luck! Just remember, the low power signals are pretty sensitive to various blockages etc. so if you try the attic and can't get a good signal, be sure to move the antenna a few feet either way and try again. Full power stations shouldn't be nearly as much of a problem in the future.

I did a bit more research on what I have (I forgot what I put up in my attic years ago). It's a CM3016 (medium directional, VHF/UHF UHF gain = 7.7dB). It's currently pointed at Lookout Mtn. with only my attic wall (foil-backed siding) in the way. The top of one tree may be barely in line also, but that tree is a good 50 feet away and I think I'm probably over the top of it anyway. I pointed the attic antenna first with a compass, then fine tuned it by hauling a small TV up there and observing the (analog) picture as I fudged antenna direction.

Given the above, I though I'd be able to get 20.1 and 31.1 since they're coming from Lookout and I thought were pretty strong, correct? No deal. I got zero signal registered at the TV. Analogs come in just fine over that same antenna, same TV setup. AntennaWeb says I only need a small multidirectional to pick up the digitals from Lookout (but amplified largedirectional for RP). Since I'm in an attic I would surely need more, but I thought attic+mediumdirectional might trump outdoors+smallmulti. No ... not in my case.

So my unscientific testing tells me I'm just going to have to go outside. My existing CM3016 might make it for the low power UHF's outside if I point it correctly, but maybe not, and I'd then have to buy a higher gain new antenna.

I was hoping for the easy way out. Guess not. bummer!

Thanks again everybody!

I don't know if KRMA changed anything or just got things up and running again. I'm actually seeing 14% from them now if I turn my antenna towards Morrison. Line of sight is right thru my house, I'll have to try the antenna elsewhere in my yard and see what happens.

Well i was told to consult you fine gentlemen in my quest!
I'm looking to purchase an antenna (attic mounted) and an HD DVR
Heres my stats: 1691B S. Idalia Cir Aurora CO 80017

DTV Antenna
Type Call Sign Channel Network City State Live
Date Compass
Orientation Miles
From Frequency
Assignment
green - vhf KBDI 12 PBS BROOMFIELD CO 260° 36.7 12
* red - uhf KBDI-DT 12.1 PBS BROOMFIELD CO 260° 36.7 38
red - uhf KCEC 50 UNI DENVER CO 268° 23.1 50
red - vhf KUSA 9 NBC DENVER CO 268° 23.0 9
red - vhf KRMA 6 PBS DENVER CO 268° 23.7 6
* red - uhf KTVD-DT 20.1 MNT DENVER CO 268° 22.9 19
red - uhf KPXC 59 ION DENVER CO 258° 21.8 59
* red - uhf KPXC-DT 43 ION DENVER CO TBD 258° 21.8 43
red - uhf KTFD 14 TFA BOULDER CO 268° 23.0 14
red - vhf KWGN 2 CW DENVER CO 268° 23.1 2
red - uhf K48FW 48 TBN DENVER CO 248° 3.6 48
red - uhf KWHD 53 IND CASTLE ROCK CO 145° 19.3 53
red - vhf KMGH 7 ABC DENVER CO 268° 23.1 7
red - vhf KCNC 4 CBS DENVER CO 268° 22.9 4
red - uhf KDVR 31 FOX DENVER CO 268° 23.1 31
* blue - uhf KDVR-DT 31.1 FOX DENVER CO 268° 23.1 32
blue - uhf KDEN 25 IND LONGMONT CO 340° 28.8 25
blue - uhf KRMT 41 DAY DENVER CO 245° 22.2 41
* blue - uhf KRMT-DT 40 DAY DENVER CO TBD 245° 22.2 40
blue - uhf KSBS-LP 18 TEL DENVER CO 202° 24.4 18
* blue - uhf KWHD-DT 53.1 IND CASTLE ROCK CO 145° 19.3 46
* blue - uhf KRMA-DT 6.1 PBS DENVER CO 283° 10.4 18
* blue - uhf KUSA-DT 9.1 NBC DENVER CO 283° 10.4 16
* blue - uhf KMGH-DT 7.1 ABC DENVER CO 283° 10.4 17
* blue - uhf KCNC-DT 4.1 CBS DENVER CO 283° 10.4 35
* blue - uhf KWGN-DT 2.1 CW DENVER CO 268° 23.0 34
blue - uhf KMAS-LP 63 TEL DENVER CO 258° 21.8 63
blue - uhf KZCO-LP 27 AZA Denver CO 258° 21.8 27
* blue - uhf KCEC-DT 51.1 UNI DENVER CO 268° 23.0 51
blue - uhf KDVT-LP 36 TFA DENVER CO 268° 23.1 36
blue - uhf KDEO-LP 23 REL AURORA CO 258° 21.8 23
blue - uhf KHDT-LP 45 ABC WINDCLIFF, ETC. CO 292° 30.2 45

Posted by sunshinedawg:
I don't know if KRMA changed anything or just got things up and running again. I'm actually seeing 14% from them now if I turn my antenna towards Morrison. Line of sight is right thru my house, I'll have to try the antenna elsewhere in my yard and see what happens.

From my antenna pointed at RP, their signal has dropped from the high 70's down to 64-65. That lower signal level is what I had when they first went to Morrision, so I believe they are up and running there again.

Had to put my antenna way up in a Aspen tree to get line of sight to Morrison. Got 6-1 at 51% where I was getting nothing from them previously. It's going to be a real pain, but at least I got a lock. I need to have an amp. There's no way I'm gonna run two antennas and two amps, one for RP and one just for KRMA. I actually have a 2nd antenna, but I'm not buying any more amps. I'll just wait for LM to come on line and I'm sure if I point at Morrison, I'll get Lookout, they are only a few degrees off from my location in Longmont.

BTW, since people mentioned it, that Radio Shack U75R is what I have in my attic pointed at RP from Louisville.

As I've mentioned previously, it picks up KWGN-DT and KDVR-DT just fine from Lookout but doesn't see a single signal strength bar from KRMA-DT's Morrison location.

Frankly, I'll wait to see if I can get them from an antenna pointed at Lookout.

Aside from The War there hasn't been anything in their three-hours-a-night HD schedule to interest me, and "Create" gets real old, real fast.

Had to put my antenna way up in a Aspen tree to get line of sight to Morrison. Got 6-1 at 51% where I was getting nothing from them previously. It's going to be a real pain, but at least I got a lock. I need to have an amp. There's no way I'm gonna run two antennas and two amps, one for RP and one just for KRMA. I actually have a 2nd antenna, but I'm not buying any more amps. I'll just wait for LM to come on line and I'm sure if I point at Morrison, I'll get Lookout, they are only a few degrees off from my location in Longmont.
While YMMV, I am feeding 2 antennas into my CM 7777 pre-amp using a splitter connected backwards. I use (2) 6' RG6 cables from the antennas to "outputs" of a cheap splitter, and another 6' RG6 cable from the "input" of the splitter to the combined UHF/VHF input on the Channel Master pre-amp. One of the antennas is a VHF/UHF suburban rated antenna and the other is the Radio Shack U-75R UHF only antenna. Everything is in my attic. I have been able to get the antennas pointed so that I get RP, Lookout, and KRMA digital. The only Lookout station I have a problem with is KRMA analog which is watchable, but noisy. Sometimes it does not look much better than KDEV-LP(39). Lately I have even been getting KBDI digital with some regularity.

While YMMV, I am feeding 2 antennas into my CM 7777 pre-amp using a splitter connected backwards. I use (2) 6' RG6 cables from the antennas to "outputs" of a cheap splitter, and another 6' RG6 cable from the "input" of the splitter to the combined UHF/VHF input on the Channel Master pre-amp. One of the antennas is a VHF/UHF suburban rated antenna and the other is the Radio Shack U-75R UHF only antenna. Everything is in my attic. I have been able to get the antennas pointed so that I get RP, Lookout, and KRMA digital. The only Lookout station I have a problem with is KRMA analog which is watchable, but noisy. Sometimes it does not look much better than KDEV-LP(39). Lately I have even been getting KBDI digital with some regularity.

Don't you need to have two preamps, one for each antenna? The "preamp" you are describing is actually the powersupply that runs power thru the RG6 and powers the preamp(the part that goes on the antenna mast). I actually have two RS powersupplies, but I burned out one of the preamps when it got wet one day. I don't think you can purchase just the preamp part(RS), or I would just do that.

Don't you need to have two preamps, one for each antenna? The "preamp" you are describing is actually the powersupply that runs power thru the RG6 and powers the preamp(the part that goes on the antenna mast). I actually have two RS powersupplies, but I burned out one of the preamps when it got wet one day. I don't think you can purchase just the preamp part(RS), or I would just do that.

No, the CM7777 is the pre-amp. I am using that cheap splitter as a combiner to feed the 2 antennas into the pre-amp input. In my case, the output of the CM7777 connects to the power supply/power injector through an RG6 run which is long enough to get to location with a a 110 volt outlet. The antennas, combiner, and pre-amp are in the attic. The power supply/power injector is in a second floor bedroom.

Actually, in my case, it is not quite that simple. My cable arrangement is less than ideal. I needed to split the output of the preamp before the power supply, so the output goes to a splitter with a single power pass. The power pass output goes to the power supply/power injector and on to a TV. The non-power pass output goes through a cable to a splitter to 2 other cables which feed other TVs.

My original note said YMMV. I realize that combining antennas is more art than science. I admit that my results may be mostly good luck. The cables from the antennas to the combiner should be well matched in length and type to have a fighting chance.

Any input please would help a lot. I just need to know what to purchase (antenna, amps, pre-amps, cabling etc) I was told to ask here since you guys live close by and have experience with this
thanks again

UC,

From Aurora, you have a straight shot at both Lookout Mt and Republic. They are both pretty much west of you. So, I would recommend (as mentioned above) a Channel Master or DB4 which have slighty wider coverage than a Yagi type antenna.

http://www.amazon.com/ChannelMaster (http://www.amazon.com/Channel-Master-Mid-range-outdoor-rooftop/dp/B000FVTPX2)

http://www.antennasdirect.com/DB4_HDTV_antenna.html

Both work well in an attic or outdoors. Amplifiers will most likely hurt more than help as they are usually overloaded by all the other signals in our area. (Amps work best in remote locations outside the metro area) Cable-wise, use good 'ol RG6 with no splitters or splices and keep the run as short as possible.

Hope that helps.

No, the CM7777 is the pre-amp. I am using that cheap splitter as a combiner to feed the 2 antennas into the pre-amp input. In my case, the output of the CM7777 connects to the power supply/power injector through an RG6 run which is long enough to get to location with a a 110 volt outlet. The antennas, combiner, and pre-amp are in the attic. The power supply/power injector is in a second floor bedroom.

Actually, in my case, it is not quite that simple. My cable arrangement is less than ideal. I needed to split the output of the preamp before the power supply, so the output goes to a splitter with a single power pass. The power pass output goes to the power supply/power injector and on to a TV. The non-power pass output goes through a cable to a splitter to 2 other cables which feed other TVs.

My original note said YMMV. I realize that combining antennas is more art than science. I admit that my results may be mostly good luck. The cables from the antennas to the combiner should be well matched in length and type to have a fighting chance.

Ok, I think I get what your saying. My problem is that I can't have short cable runs. Line of sight for RP is down my backyard fence line. I have a 50ft cable run to my powersupply. I then split my signal and then send to my projector and plamsa. I've tried all direct feeds, but there is no need, for some reason I don't lose any signal with splits after the powersupply. All I really have to do is buy another preamp, but I'll just wait. To get high enough over my neighborhood, I have to really elevate for 6-1 anyway, something I don't really feel like bothering with.

As I was fiddling with my TV/antenna setup in prep for moving it from inside attic to outdoors, a thought came into my mind. I have to ask a stupid newbie question now, because I want to make sure my problems are not simply user error. This is my first digital TV, and I'm not 100% sure I know how to correctly tune the thing to a digital station.

AntennaWeb says FOX is 31.1, and assigned to frequencey 32 in my area. Per my Mitsubishi manual, I tune this on the remote by pressing 3-1-cancel-1 ("cancel" is how you enter a seperator between main and subchannel numbers on the Mitsubishi). I get no signal there, but the info screen does show the signal strength meter (reading zero), so it looks like I'm tuned to something digital (there is no signal meter for analog on this TV). How does the TV know that 31.1 maps to a frequency assignment of 32? Is that some standard thing, or something I need to setup myself in the TV?

Before moving my antenna, I just wanted to make sure I wasn't doing something terribly stupid like, ahem, not even tuning my TV correctly! My TV is a Mitsubishi WD-C657 (the Costco version of a WD-65733).

Thanks

As I was fiddling with my TV/antenna setup in prep for moving it from inside attic to outdoors, a thought came into my mind. I have to ask a stupid newbie question now, because I want to make sure my problems are not simply user error. This is my first digital TV, and I'm not 100% sure I know how to correctly tune the thing to a digital station.

AntennaWeb says FOX is 31.1, and assigned to frequencey 32 in my area. Per my Mitsubishi manual, I tune this on the remote by pressing 3-1-cancel-1 ("cancel" is how you enter a seperator between main and subchannel numbers on the Mitsubishi). I get no signal there, but the info screen does show the signal strength meter (reading zero), so it looks like I'm tuned to something digital (there is no signal meter for analog on this TV). How does the TV know that 31.1 maps to a frequency assignment of 32? Is that some standard thing, or something I need to setup myself in the TV?

Yeah, this is definitely a confusing aspect of digital TV, made more confusing by the industry's attempts to "simplify" it.

You're correct in that Fox's digital channel is on channel 32(-1). So the easiest way to tune it would be to tune to 3-2-cancel-1. Now the datastream coming in on that channel includes some PSIP (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PSIP) information including the old analog assignment for that channel. In this case, the PSIP will indicate that this digital channel's analog equivalent is 31-1. Once your TV (or whatever device you use to tune ATSC channels) reads this PSIP information, you should be able to tune to 32-1 by tuning to 32-1 or 31-1. Also, the on-screen display should reflect the channel as 31-1, regardless of whether you tuned to 32-1 or 31-1. It's really just a virtual channel number.

But your TV won't know that 31-1 is really 32-1 until it scans that PSIP information, either by having you manually tune to 32-1 or by doing an off-air channel scan. So that probably explains why tuning to 31-1 initially doesn't get you anything -the TV is looking for a digital channel on channel 31, but there isn't one there. So 0 signal strength.

Short story: tune your TV to 32-1, or look in the manual for a channel scan procedure. Either way, you should be able to tune 32-1 by entering 3-1-cancel-1 afterwards.

I'll echo what dr_mal said.

Unfortunately, some TVs will not let you manually tune a digital channel this way. My sister recently got a new Samsung where the only way to pick up new channels is by doing a full scan. Makes it a real PITA when trying to optimize reception for a marginal channel.

Thank you dr_mal and oxothuk!!!

If I had just been like 99.9% of the population and done a channel scan initially, I would have found all the stations. But noooo, I had to try tuning manually! Once I learned the trick that 31.1 must initially be tuned manually as 32.1, I was in like flint.

Yeah! All my digitals are there. After manually tuning and finding all the ones I was interested in, I did a channel scan and found the others too. Nice strong-enough signals on all of them using my current attic-mounted CM3016 antenna pointed at LM. It picks up RP just fine even pointed the wrong way! Lowest RP signal is 50% on channel 7.1, then 60% on 4.1, 70% on 6.1, then 75% on 9.1. LM signals were 90%.

I am really happy now. No new antenna to buy, and I don't have to move my old one out of the attic. Thanks again!!!

I don't know if KRMA changed anything or just got things up and running again. I'm actually seeing 14% from them now if I turn my antenna towards Morrison. Line of sight is right thru my house, I'll have to try the antenna elsewhere in my yard and see what happens.

Those of you who are having trouble receiving KRMA - are you able to receive KTFD (Telfutura) at 14-1 (or maybe 15-1)? Aren't they also broadcasting from Mt. Morrison? Is KRMA broadcasting at a really low power level?

It seems KRMA is back on Morrision now (after switching back and forth a few times). When they first went to Morrison a few weeks ago, I got a very weak intermittent signal at best here in Louisville. But now, if I point towards Morrison, I can usually get a signal ~50, which strangely enough seems fairly watchable. It seems they improved something, but it's still not great (and of course, turning my antenna makes a few other stations come in worse).

From what I've heard, the Morrison signal is pretty low power now, but should be improved perhaps on the 2009 switchover date.

And yes, I had trouble with Telefutura too. I could only occasionally get their DT signal (but their analog is actually pretty good).
CORRECTION: I can now get a strong KTFD signal by aiming it at Morrison (but not at all when aimed at RP) - it's been a while since I had checked.

Those of you who are having trouble receiving KRMA - are you able to receive KTFD (Telfutura) at 14-1 (or maybe 15-1)? Aren't they also broadcasting from Mt. Morrison? Is KRMA broadcasting at a really low power level?

Is there some TV listing website to find out what specific shows are broadcast locally in HD? Now that I apparently have my antenna woes behind me, I'd like to see what HD has to offer. All the websites I've found so far seem to imply that digital = HD in their listings, but that can't be correct. Just channel surfing through mid-day digital locals, I see both good and bad quality stuff. I'm assuming the bad stuff is SD. Is there some way to find out in advance whether something will be broadcast in HD or SD?

Is there some TV listing website to find out what specific shows are broadcast locally in HD? Now that I apparently have my antenna woes behind me, I'd like to see what HD has to offer. All the websites I've found so far seem to imply that digital = HD in their listings, but that can't be correct. Just channel surfing through mid-day digital locals, I see both good and bad quality stuff. I'm assuming the bad stuff is SD. Is there some way to find out in advance whether something will be broadcast in HD or SD?

Try titantv.com.

Try titantv.com.
Perfect!

Thanks!

Those of you who are having trouble receiving KRMA - are you able to receive KTFD (Telfutura) at 14-1 (or maybe 15-1)? Aren't they also broadcasting from Mt. Morrison? Is KRMA broadcasting at a really low power level?

I get 14-1 at 90% aimed at RP with line of sight to Morrison from that antenna location right thru my house. So they(KRMA) are either broadcasting at a really low level or doing something else very badly. Thanks for bringing up that 14-1 is coming from Morrison, helps confirm that I should be getting KRMA. :rolleyes:

For HD only tv listings, you can also try hdtvmagazine.com.

I believe the FCC data shows KRMA at 115 kW on Morrision which is pretty low power for a UHF signal, just about 10% of the max, 1 mW.

I believe the FCC data shows KRMA at 115 kW on Morrision which is pretty low power for a UHF signal, just about 10% of the max, 1 mW.
IIRC, they were only about 15kw from Republic Plaza. I also recall someone having talked to their PR department and being told that they were on the "ice bridge" at Mt. Morrison, near the bottom of the tower. Don't know whether that might affect their signal strength.

KTFD-DT comes in strong at my house no matter which way the antenna is pointed, so I don't have much way to guess where they are. Some time back when I looked them up on http://www.2150.com/broadcast/default.asp it gave their location as somewhere on Davidson Mesa in Superior, but now it shows them on Mt. Morrison. I'm looking forward to the day when KTFD carries soccer in high def, maybe with a second language English track.

Posted by oxothuk:
I'm looking forward to the day when KTFD carries soccer in high def, maybe with a second language English track.


Now that's an out-of-the-box thought! I wonder if the Spanish speaking networks will ever attempt to gain viewers with English soundtracks or sub-titles. It appears that's only a one-way street now, with NBC owning Telemundo and PBS with it's V-Me programming.

Posted by oxothuk:


Now that's an out-of-the-box thought! I wonder if the Spanish speaking networks will ever attempt to gain viewers with English soundtracks or sub-titles. It appears that's only a one-way street now, with NBC owning Telemundo and PBS with it's V-Me programming.

Oh, it's a great thought that has been bantered out on the Chicago OTA board over the last two years, since Telefutura has been playing a lot of good movies, but with Spanish dubbing only. The response is this: if they do English audio, they will have to pay for English-speaking rights as well as Spanish-language rights to the broadcasts. The Telefutura engineer said the English version is much more expensive because of the high number of eyeballs and thus the associated high cost. They don't believe they could recoup that cost at all with an English subchannel or soundtrack. In short, we were told that "it ain't gonna happen".

Check out the "Mexican HDTV" OTA thread started by user "cube799". In El Paso, TX they have DTV stations on the Mexican border---four or five of them---all in HD, relayed from Mexico City (Mexico uses the same DTV transmission protocol---ATSC, in a multiple decade digital transition(!)) and they have the rights for the Discovery Channel programs, to show in the clear with spanish dubbing! The local cable company in El Paso is reportedly torqued over that, but there's nothing they can do about it, and people with antennas, high-def TV's essentially get a lot of free programs from the U.S. cable nets and Telenovellas steamier than the crap spewed out by sCARE!

IIRC, they were only about 15kw from Republic Plaza. I also recall someone having talked to their PR department and being told that they were on the "ice bridge" at Mt. Morrison, near the bottom of the tower. Don't know whether that might affect their signal strength.

KTFD-DT comes in strong at my house no matter which way the antenna is pointed, so I don't have much way to guess where they are. Some time back when I looked them up on http://www.2150.com/broadcast/default.asp it gave their location as somewhere on Davidson Mesa in Superior, but now it shows them on Mt. Morrison. I'm looking forward to the day when KTFD carries soccer in high def, maybe with a second language English track.

I watch the soccer all the time, I really don't care that it's in Spanish. If it were in HD that would be a different story! From everything I can research, 14-1, 20-0, and 6-1 are all coming from exactly the same location on Morrison. Come on KRMA, turn up the power so everybody can watch, wait, I forgot, they are already reaching 95% of their viewers.

I'm not sure if it was what you guys call macroblocking, but during last Sunday's Broncos game, whenever they showed a replay, at the very end of the replay, there was huge, horrible pixallation. I'm not sure whether that was intentional, but I did see it both on OTA and Comcast HD. Switching back and forth between the two, it did seem as though the OTA picture was clearer, or at least the color better. Also, around the time KRMA went back to Mt. Morrison, I rescanned with my STB and now get KRMA, KTVD, and VM-E. So, just being 8 miles SE of downtown, with just a Philipps rabbit ears + 6" UHF loop antenna extended by a long coax cable upstairs to the "balcony" above my cathedral ceiling living room, I am able to get all the local channels along with 2-2 Tube (music videos), 9-2 Weather Plus, and 6-2 VM-E. Unfortunately, trying to use a combiner/splitter to combine the antenna and cable coax feed doesn't work - I end up loosing both OTA and cable channels. The combiner must attenuate the signal a significant amount as when I tried the combiner with only the antenna, I lost OTA channels, and when I tried the combiner with only cable, I lost cable channels. Anyone sucessfully use a combiner with antenna and/or cable? This is a problem as I hope to build a Myth HTPC that can tune/record 2 different OTA or 2 different digital cable channels simultaneously.

Anyone sucessfully use a combiner with antenna and/or cable? I really doubt this is possible - among other things, cable and OTA divide up the frequencies differently, and the mappings would overlap.
Not sure if you have heard about the HD HomeRun - that would let you record two cable channels, two OTA channels, or one of each. However, you wouldn't be able switch between those modes on the fly so it still might not be what you want.

Back to the roof for me!

KRMA moved their transmitter again. Right in the middle of "The War", so I missed an episode.

Hope this is the last time!

IIRC, they were only about 15kw from Republic Plaza. I also recall someone having talked to their PR department and being told that they were on the "ice bridge" at Mt. Morrison, near the bottom of the tower. Don't know whether that might affect their signal strength.

KTFD-DT comes in strong at my house no matter which way the antenna is pointed, so I don't have much way to guess where they are. Some time back when I looked them up on http://www.2150.com/broadcast/default.asp it gave their location as somewhere on Davidson Mesa in Superior, but now it shows them on Mt. Morrison. I'm looking forward to the day when KTFD carries soccer in high def, maybe with a second language English track.

Excellent reception of KTFD-DT at 95 - 100% here in NE Longmont using a SquareShooter with 7775 pre-amp. Yet, nothing on KRMA-DT. Very odd considering they are only 3 channels apart and KTFD is listed as only 200kw erp (KRMA is over half that power). Something is either very wrong with their setup, location on the tower, or their erp is missing the decimal point somewhere. Maybe the switching back and forth to RP is an indication of some on-going troubleshooting effort. Using KTFD as a reference point, 6-1 should be reaching us in Longmont without requiring major effort from most of their OTA audience to the north, many who will not find their signal at all.

Does anyone know if KBDI has made any changes to their digital transmitter on channel 38 in the last month or so.

From Louisville, it was rare that I could get ATSC 12, but lately, it has generally been possible to receive it. I wonder whether it is a change in atmospheric conditions, a change in the transmitter, or ???

Lately all 3 sub-channels have been available, with very little break up.

KDBI is still the same for me in Longmont - around 55-60% using the SquareShooter.

I have to think the signal from Mt. Morrison is stronger than from RP. I turned the yagi in the general direction of the stick (can't see it, no line of sight) and lit up 6-1 on the first try.

Too bad the HR20 doesn't have a signal meter like the HR10.

When I had the locals from RP, capturing the signal was much more picky.

I am one or two miles closed to MM than to RP, but I was surprised how easy it was to find the signal.

............................Too bad the HR20 doesn't have a signal meter like the HR10.
.............

Try

Menue>Help & Settings>Setup>Sat & Ant>Antenna Setup>Edit off air channels>Signal Meter

Hope I got that all right. Someone else here pointed me at this a while back.

Thanks, I'll try it tonight -- after the ballgame.

Thanks, I'll try it tonight -- after the ballgame.Is the ballgame going to be televised? I don't see it on KTVD's website.

Apparently, the game is only on TBS & TBS HD. So D* subs are probably the only ones who will see it in HD. Of course, if it was on KTVD, it wouldn't be in HD anyway.

Is the ballgame going to be televised? I don't see it on KTVD's website.

It is on WTBS which means no HD for us.

It is on WTBS which means no HD for us.

Unless you have a friend with the new HD channels from DirecTV.

What? Comcast hasn't added TBS-HD here in Denver? I'm shocked! :eek:

Unless you have a friend with the new HD channels from DirecTV.

After several years of abuse here in the AVS forum and other forums for us D* subscribers, we finally "win" one for something besides having NFLST. TBS HD will be on tonight at my house.......:D

After several years of abuse here in the AVS forum and other forums for us D* subscribers, we finally "win" one for something besides having NFLST. TBS HD will be on tonight at my house.......:D

I hear Rockpile tickets are $100 each, so I think I'll fire up the plasma.

After several years of abuse here in the AVS forum and other forums for us D* subscribers, we finally "win" one for something besides having NFLST. TBS HD will be on tonight at my house.......:D

What, in glorious HD Lite at 1440x1080i? :D

Does anyone know if KBDI has made any changes to their digital transmitter on channel 38 in the last month or so.

From Louisville, it was rare that I could get ATSC 12, but lately, it has generally been possible to receive it. I wonder whether it is a change in atmospheric conditions, a change in the transmitter, or ???

Lately all 3 sub-channels have been available, with very little break up.

Still not a hint of it a bit further west in Louisville... that granite shields really, really, well. :D

Hopefully everyone with D* noticed, they have the game on 95 in HD.

What, in glorious HD Lite at 1440x1080i? :D

Actually the game was on two channels, 95 (likely MPEG2 for MLBEI viewers without the new MPEG4 equipment) and also on 247 which is the normal MPEG4 version as well. Although no one has confirmed it with actual measurements, the consensus is that the MPEG4 channels are not HDLite but are indeed full resolution. Apparently no one has the equipment to measure the MPEG4 channels since you would have to break the D* codes away to measure it, and that is not likely to happen any time soon if ever. People who 'know people' at D* claim the new channels are indeed full resolution, at least for now. Whatever the case, the picture was extremely clear and I did not notice any macroblocking or other issues that we usually see on the MPEG2 channels.

But the real story is the Rockies. How 'bout dem Rockies'! That was a pretty amazing stretch run, and certainly a great ball game tonight.
:D:D:D:D

.

But the real story is the Rockies. How 'bout dem Rockies'! That was a pretty amazing stretch run, and certainly a great ball game tonight.
:D:D:D:D

And there is more to come. I don't think the Phillies are too excited about playing the Rox instead of the Pads.

What, in glorious HD Lite at 1440x1080i? :D

I don't know if it was "True HD" perfection, or HD-Lite, or down-rezzed, or bit-starved. I do know it was an awesome game, that looked amazing on my 62" Mits. ;)

Go Rockies!

I don't know if it was "True HD" perfection, or HD-Lite, or down-rezzed, or bit-starved. I do know it was an awesome game, that looked amazing on my 62" Mits. ;)

Go Rockies!

Whatever the resolution it was clear enough to show that Matt Holliday needs to stop by the stadium sometime this week and touch home plate to make the game 'official'.
:D

Whatever the resolution it was clear enough to show that Matt Holliday needs to stop by the stadium sometime this week and touch home plate to make the game 'official'.
:D

His hand was a lot closer to the edge of home plate than some of those outside pitches called strikes! The two angles shown by TBS were actually pretty poor. The home plate angle was worthless, his torso was in the way. The left field view was also inconclusive on whether his hand snuck in on the pitcher's mound side of the catcher's foot blocking the plate. I would have liked to have had the home plate umpire's view despite the fact he was out of position for the call!

My dream would be for the Rockies to beat the Cubs for the pennant. I would not care about the World Series after that.

Don

His hand was a lot closer to the edge of home plate than some of those outside pitches called strikes! The two angles shown by TBS were actually pretty poor. The home plate angle was worthless, his torso was in the way. The left field view was also inconclusive on whether his hand snuck in on the pitcher's mound side of the catcher's foot blocking the plate. I would have liked to have had the home plate umpire's view despite the fact he was out of position for the call!

My dream would be for the Rockies to beat the Cubs for the pennant. I would not care about the World Series after that.

Don
That game was proof that 'instant replay' in baseball wouldn't work, at least for sure on that play. I don't think any of the camera angles showed one way or the other as to whether he touched the plate. The umpire had the best view and it took him a minute to decide what to call. All in all, still a great game though.

<Sorry to go OT here, but since there isn't much going on as far as construction reports on the tower we might as well talk about the Rockies>

That game was proof that 'instant replay' in baseball wouldn't work, at least for sure on that play. I don't think any of the camera angles showed one way or the other as to whether he touched the plate. The umpire had the best view and it took him a minute to decide what to call. All in all, still a great game though.

<Sorry to go OT here, but since there isn't much going on as far as construction reports on the tower we might as well talk about the Rockies>

I would like to see them start testing instant replay on two specific calls when there is a question. Home runs and which side of the foul line or pole a ball lands on are generally pretty definitive, are rarely going to have a camera angle issue, and often have significant impact.

I would like to see them start testing instant replay on two specific calls when there is a question. Home runs and which side of the foul line or pole a ball lands on are generally pretty definitive, are rarely going to have a camera angle issue, and often have significant impact.

Sorry, but I disagree. I don't like the DH, and I don't want IR for baseball. The human element is part of the game. The MLB umpires are in charge of the game like no other sport. Let's keep it that way. It has worked reasonably well for a hundred years.

Bionic Woman had terrible audio sync issues last night on OTA KUSA. Last week it was bad as well.

Way to go Rockies!!

Bionic Woman had terrible audio sync issues last night on OTA KUSA. Last week it was bad as well.

Way to go Rockies!!

Yep. It was like that over comcast cable both weeks.

Its amusing that they spend all this money on HD hardware to produce the show then blow it all on lousy audio. Someone should be fired.

Is anybody else seeing KMGH OTA jumping? I've seen it these past three nights on at least Cavemen, Pushing Daisys, and now Grey's Anatomy. Its like there are frames missing.

e.g. The video seems to pause and then skip ahead, for just brief moments.

I'm recording onto a TiVo HR10-250 am seeing a strong 70% signal for KMGH and not seeing this phenomenon on any of the other OTA digital channels.

Thanks in advance for letting me know if you are seeing this.

I've been seeing the same problems--lip sync issues on KUSA and video stuttering on KMGH. After all these years you would think these kinds of issues would be history. FYI, picking up the stations OTA on a DISH 921.

On dbstalk.com, there are nationwide reports of the lipsync problems during Bionic Woman. I think it's probably not a KUSA problem.

Is anybody else seeing KMGH OTA jumping? I've seen it these past three nights on at least Cavemen, Pushing Daisys, and now Grey's Anatomy. Its like there are frames missing.

e.g. The video seems to pause and then skip ahead, for just brief moments.

I'm recording onto a TiVo HR10-250 am seeing a strong 70% signal for KMGH and not seeing this phenomenon on any of the other OTA digital channels.

Thanks in advance for letting me know if you are seeing this.

I've noticed this as well.

I saw it too on Pushing Daisies. I thought it was because my ant. got blown out of alignment a bit earlier in the week. Hummm?

So when do World Series tickets go on sale for non-season ticket holders?

Don

So when do World Series tickets go on sale for non-season ticket holders?

Don

The temperature in he11 is still about 40 deg F. It ain't quite there yet.
:eek:

The temperature in he11 is still about 40 deg F. It ain't quite there yet.
:eek:

Oh! Ye of so little faith!!!
;)

So when do World Series tickets go on sale for non-season ticket holders?

Do you realize that if the Rockies do win the series, Denver will have a World Series champ, a Superbowl champ, a Stanley Cup champ, and the Nuggets? :D

News article on the digital transition in the Post today along with a short article on the impact of the tower (or lack thereof).

The Denver Post--Prepping for the big digital-TV switch
Those charged with easing transition assess hurdles for when switch occurs in '09 (http://www.denverpost.com/business/ci_7113150)

Not often you see an article about the transition that's actually well researched, well written, complete, and free of FUD. Nice job Denver Post!

News article on the digital transition in the Post today along with a short article on the impact of the tower (or lack thereof).

The Denver Post--Prepping for the big digital-TV switch
Those charged with easing transition assess hurdles for when switch occurs in '09 (http://www.denverpost.com/business/ci_7113150)

Not often you see an article about the transition that's actually well researched, well written, complete, and free of FUD. Nice job Denver Post!

Pretty good, except for this very confusing bit:

This January, analog-to- digital converter boxes will hit store shelves to help consumers make the transition.

It should of course be "digital-to-analog".

The article is somewhat better written than most of have read but whenever you are quoting a spokesperson for a special interest group it cannot be totally FUD free.

Now I don't live in a nursing home but if I did, why would I need a digital box coupon? My limited experience with the few nursing homes I have visited is they supply TV via some sort of community cable system.

--- CHAS

The article implies DTV will be available from the new tower after it's completed during 2008. I hope this is the case. Perhaps the UHF digital stations can start then but in reality, the stations returning to their VHF assignments cannot turn on full power digital until they vacate their NTSC transmissions.

I'll still contend that won't happen until Feb 2009. So this is a 'yes and no' implication.

--- CHAS

The article was, overall, well written for the neophyte, but it did contain one error.

The article stated:
The federal government wants to use the existing analog-TV spectrum for emergency communication.
It should have qualified that comment for channels above 51. Also, won't some LPTV stations use channels 52-69?

The article was, overall, well written for the neophyte, but it did contain one error.

The article stated:

It should have qualified that comment for channels above 51. Also, won't some LPTV stations use channels 52-69?

That digital spectrum, analog spectrum, digital towers, analog towers, digital antenna, analog antenna nonsense is symptomatic of the journalistic ignorance of things technological.

I believe you are correct about the LPTV but I think their retention rights to the 'cleared from TV' spectrum is questionable.

--- CHAS

That digital spectrum, analog spectrum, digital towers, analog towers, digital antenna, analog antenna nonsense is symptomatic of the journalistic ignorance of things technological.
Every time I have seen reporting on a subject or event where I had first hand knowledge, my respect for everything else they report has suffered as a result.

Latest item:

May 2007 - Carney Goes to Washington

Hmmm..its October now. Who wants to go on the search party!

Oh and the DP fixed the digital to analog converter sentance. THEY ARE READING THIS THREAD...RUN AND HIDE!

Not sure when this happened, but KRMA seems to have cleaned up their PSIP data for the V-me channel to the point where my mythTv system can view it now.

Looks like KUSA DT is off the air, kind of. I'm just getting a black screen right now, with no sound or video, but my signal strength is normal. Other locals appear to be OK.

Has anyone noticed that KWGN continues to show a graphic about the Tube being discontinued but carries the sound of the main channel, 2-1. Wonder why they haven't shut down 2-2, unless they have something else planned?

Wonder why they haven't shut down 2-2, unless they have something else planned?I wouldn't read too much into that. According to my sister in Atlanta, their ABC station still had an empty subchannel over a year after their ABCNewsNow service went away.

Not sure when this happened, but KRMA seems to have cleaned up their PSIP data for the V-me channel to the point where my mythTv system can view it now.
Whatever they did also fixed the problem that my Philips DVDR3575H (DVD recorder with ATSC tuner) had with 6-2. There was no sound, but when I saw your post I checked and the Spanish audio is now recovered properly (I presume, since I do not understand ant Spanish).

With my antenna setup, it does not make any difference, but I am curious whether they are transmitting from Mt Morrison now.

Looks like KUSA DT is off the air, kind of. I'm just getting a black screen right now, with no sound or video, but my signal strength is normal. Other locals appear to be OK.

Has anyone noticed that KWGN continues to show a graphic about the Tube being discontinued but carries the sound of the main channel, 2-1. Wonder why they haven't shut down 2-2, unless they have something else planned?

The sound on 2-2 is strange for me. My Vizio VX32L gets no sound at all on 2-2. My Philips 42PF7320A only gets sound when I step down to 2-2 from 4-1. If I go up from 2-1, there is no sound. I presume they have some funny stuff in their PSIP data.

Whatever they did also fixed the problem that my Philips DVDR5373H (DVD recorder with ATSC tuner) had with 6-2. There was no sound, but when I saw your post I checked and the Spanish audio is now recovered properly (I presume, since I do not understand ant Spanish).

With my antenna setup, it does not make any difference, but I am curious whether they are transmitting from Mt Morrison now.Based on my "which antenna works" test, they are on Mt. Morrison now.

When I checked on V-me a couple nights ago, some episode of "Nature" was on where they had a second audio track. When I selected that, I then heard English commentary on top of the dubbed Spanish.

Just as an update (or more like what we already knew hasn't changed) - I received word from KRMA that they are currently transmitting at their full power, and the difference between their coverage and KTFD is attributed to the 100 feet on the tower. They won't be doing a move for at least 3 years.

Which as has been stated means no KRMA-DT for many of us in the Louisville area without reaiming antennae. :(

Posted by Mgibsoj:
Just as an update (or more like what we already knew hasn't changed) - I received word from KRMA that they are currently transmitting at their full power, and the difference between their coverage and KTFD is attributed to the 100 feet on the tower. They won't be doing a move for at least 3 years.


Did they say why it would be 3 years and where they might move?

So do you think KRMA is now at 115 kW or a 1000 kW ?
If you look at posts from 8/12, they mentioned 115 as temporary and 1mW as final power.

When they originally went to Morrion in August, I couldn't get a decent signal in Louisville at all. But now it's watchable (but still not perfect) if I point the antenna at Morrison.

Opps, it is 1 - 3 years... time to get my glasses checked...
Here is the text of the email that I received:

"Yes we are making 115KW ERP, however KTFD is higher and mounted on the tower rather than the Ice Bridge.
The old saw applies “I’ll take height over power any day” certainly applies here, 100 feet makes a difference.

We are at the only available location on the Mt. Morrison transmission site. So until we can move back to Lookout or go higher on the existing tower on Morrison we are putting out the best signal we can.

Time frame to improve? 1to 3 years unless some miracle happens. Any changes in location would require much in the way of permitting, the FCC isn’t accepting applications until after transition in 2009; money, to relocate the existing installation would cost upwards of $750,000; and time, the engineering process takes 6-9 months, the design and construction takes 6-10 months and installation, testing and proof takes about 3 months.

Know of anyone with real deep pockets? 

I wish there was more I could do on the transmitter side; but we are doing the best we can with what we have to work with. "

Seems to me that KRMA made a conscious decision to use a low power - 115 kW - transmitter. At they very least, they could have at least gone with more ERP if they were limited to an ice bridge location on Morrison. When and if they move, I suspect that they will "need" a higher power transmitter which makes the purchase of the 115 kW one rather short-sighted, especially if funding is an issue. And I think their Xcel bill is a major consideration here since their channel 18 ERP of 115 kW is close to the 100 kW their analog channel 6 is at. I doubt we'll ever see a 1 mW ERP out of KRMA.

What bothers me is why KRMA left LCG and why they opted not to rejoin, if they had that option. I have to question their business plan, both in terms of efficient use of funds and serving viewers in what soon will be their historic analog coverage area. In my mind, they've made some mistakes. I hope they get viewers they will lose as of 2-17-09 back again some day and I hope they have a buyer for a 115 kW channel 18 transmitter in 1-3 years.

They probably got 'cold feet' about the DTV transition schedule. It certainly was possible that sCare would prevail .. they probably would have if congress didn't put an end to their shenanigans.

They chose poorly.

--- CHAS

ABC & NBC are sure having issues with their audio sync. Bionic Woman was bad but not as bad as it has been. Ugly Betty was bad last night. Some shows they can keep in sync but others are a disaster.

One would think a transmitting site thousands of feet above the average terrain and coverage area work just from the ice bridge. But in reality, some height above above the local ground is usually required to clear the lip of a mountain. Sometimes Fresnel zones limit coverage even though visual line of sight is present. So an extra hundred feet can make a difference.

--- CHAS

On Wednesday 10/10/07, all was well with KRMA-DT. They apparently did something to the PSIP that allowed the ATSC tuner in my Philips DVDR3575H recorder to recover the audio on 6-2, for the first time I had ever observed. All of the ATSC tuners in my TVs and the recorder were getting audio and video on 6-1 and 6-2.

Late this afternoon, I noticed a problem with 6-1 on my Philips 42PF7320A TV. It cannot recover audio or video on 6-1. It does detect a signal, since it displays the name of the program being broadcast. The TV can display signal strength in 20 percent increments. The UHF 18 signal is stable at 60 percent. The TV normally produces a good image as long as the signal does not drop below 40 percent. The 6-2 sound and audio are fine on the TV. The Philips recorder gets an identical signal to the TV. They are fed by the same antenna signal through a passive splitter. The recorder is able to recover video and audio on both 6-1 and 6-2. My Vizio VX32L TV on a different branch of the antenna feed gets video and audio on both 6-1 and 6-2.

My guess is that KRMA just made a subtle change to the PSIP information on 6-1 that my Philips 42PF7320A TV cannot handle.

I am curious if anyone is seeing anything similar that started between Wednesday and today.

I also wonder if anyone knows of an email address that gets to broadcast engineering at KRMA. I have tried to get through to them using the KRMA website with little success.

Aren't we about due for some cool new pictures of the construction progress on Lookout mtn.?:D:D

Aren't we about due for some cool new pictures of the construction progress on Lookout mtn.?:D:D

Wouldn't we all rather see the pictures from Deb C's trip to Washington DC in May......:D

Until this past week my MythTV receiver was doing fine with KRMA=DT (6-1), but didn't get any video on 6-2. Earlier this week they made a change which fixed 6-2, but sometime yesterday they made ANOTHER change which broke 6-1 for me. I'm still getting 6-2, however, so it's not a signal strength issues.

Anyone else having issues with 6-1?

I watched Chef's Story last night (~9pm) and part of Daisy's Kitchen from KRMA-DT 6.1. Chef's Story looked great. It featured Rick Bayless. Daisy's Kitchen looked soft. I don't think it was recorded in HD.

I'm not having any issues with KRMA other than the lower signal strength with my antenna pointed at RP.

Until this past week my MythTV receiver was doing fine with KRMA=DT (6-1), but didn't get any video on 6-2. Earlier this week they made a change which fixed 6-2, but sometime yesterday they made ANOTHER change which broke 6-1 for me. I'm still getting 6-2, however, so it's not a signal strength issues.

Anyone else having issues with 6-1?

As I stated in post 1670, I have a very similar situation. The only difference is that, on my Philips DVDR3575H DVD recorder, I was getting video, but no audio on 6-2 until early this week. On Wednesday, everything was good on 6-1 and 6-2 on all my ATSC tuners. Now, with my Philips 42PF7320A TV, I have no audio and a black screen on 6-1, but a signal is detected because the TV displays the program name, and that TV is getting audio and video on 6-2. My Philips DVDR3575H DVD recorder and Vizio VX32L TV currently get both 6-1 and 6-2 audio and video.

Does anyone know of a way to get through to someone at KRMA-DT broadcast engineering?

Does anyone know of a way to get through to someone at KRMA-DT broadcast engineering?I turned on logging in MythTV, and this is what I saw when tuning 6-1. The problem seems to be that the PMT is pointing to streams with PIDs of 0x3a and 0x3b, which are NOT the audio and video. Most likely they should be pointing to stream PIDs 0x31 and 0x34, if past experience is any guide.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

2007-10-13 11:12:33.281 Program Map Table ver(30) pid(0x30) pnum(3) len(47)

Stream #0 pid(0x3a) type(private-sec 0x5)
Registration Descriptor: 'TVG1' Unknown, see http://www.smpte-ra.org/mpegreg.html
Private Data Indicator Descriptor (0xf) length(4)
Stream #1 pid(0x3b) type(private-sec 0x5)
Registration Descriptor: 'TVG2' Unknown, see http://www.smpte-ra.org/mpegreg.html
Private Data Indicator Descriptor (0xf) length(4)

------------------------------------------------------------------------
And this is what I see when I tune 6-2, where the audio and video are fine.
Note that the stream PIDs are 0x41 and 0x44, which are MPEG video and AC-3 audio as expected.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

2007-10-13 11:22:11.371 Program Map Table ver(1) pid(0x40) pnum(4) len(69)
Registration Descriptor: 'GA94' ATSC program ID A/53
Smoothing Buffer Descriptor (0x10) length(6)

Stream #0 pid(0x41) type(video-mpeg2 0x2)
Unknown(6) Descriptor (0x6) length(1)
Stream #1 pid(0x44) type(audio-ac3 0x129)
ISO-639 Language: code(eng) canonical(eng) eng(English)
Registration Descriptor: 'AC-3' ATSC audio stream A/52
Stream #2 pid(0x45) type(audio-ac3 0x129)
ISO-639 Language: code(spa) canonical(spa) eng(Spanish; Castilian)
Registration Descriptor: 'AC-3' ATSC audio stream A/52

I turned on logging in MythTV, and this is what I saw when tuning 6-1. The problem seems to be that the PMT is pointing to streams with PIDs of 0x3a and 0x3b, which are NOT the audio and video. Most likely they should be pointing to stream PIDs 0x31 and 0x34, if past experience is any guide.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

2007-10-13 11:12:33.281 Program Map Table ver(30) pid(0x30) pnum(3) len(47)

Stream #0 pid(0x3a) type(private-sec 0x5)
Registration Descriptor: 'TVG1' Unknown, see http://www.smpte-ra.org/mpegreg.html
Private Data Indicator Descriptor (0xf) length(4)
Stream #1 pid(0x3b) type(private-sec 0x5)
Registration Descriptor: 'TVG2' Unknown, see http://www.smpte-ra.org/mpegreg.html
Private Data Indicator Descriptor (0xf) length(4)

------------------------------------------------------------------------
And this is what I see when I tune 6-2, where the audio and video are fine.
Note that the stream PIDs are 0x41 and 0x44, which are MPEG video and AC-3 audio as expected.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

2007-10-13 11:22:11.371 Program Map Table ver(1) pid(0x40) pnum(4) len(69)
Registration Descriptor: 'GA94' ATSC program ID A/53
Smoothing Buffer Descriptor (0x10) length(6)

Stream #0 pid(0x41) type(video-mpeg2 0x2)
Unknown(6) Descriptor (0x6) length(1)
Stream #1 pid(0x44) type(audio-ac3 0x129)
ISO-639 Language: code(eng) canonical(eng) eng(English)
Registration Descriptor: 'AC-3' ATSC audio stream A/52
Stream #2 pid(0x45) type(audio-ac3 0x129)
ISO-639 Language: code(spa) canonical(spa) eng(Spanish; Castilian)
Registration Descriptor: 'AC-3' ATSC audio stream A/52

I believe that some people have been in contact with KRMA engineering. If you feel that you cannot post an email address, can you relay this information to your contact, and let us know that you have done so.
Thanks for any assistance that anyone can provide.

I'm picking up 11-1 (33-1) again, watched Greatest American Hero tonight. Not sure why they were off the air. They suddenly disappeared a few months ago and came back just as suddenly.

As I stated in post 1670, I have a very similar situation. The only difference is that, on my Philips DVDR3575H DVD recorder, I was getting video, but no audio on 6-2 until early this week. On Wednesday, everything was good on 6-1 and 6-2 on all my ATSC tuners. Now, with my Philips 42PF7320A TV, I have no audio and a black screen on 6-1, but a signal is detected because the TV displays the program name, and that TV is getting audio and video on 6-2. My Philips DVDR3575H DVD recorder and Vizio VX32L TV currently get both 6-1 and 6-2 audio and video.

Does anyone know of a way to get through to someone at KRMA-DT broadcast engineering?

There's a contact form (http://www.rmpbs.org/contact/) on the Rocky Mountain PBS web site. Select "I have a question about my TV."

Or call them and leave a message with viewer services; it'll get kicked up to someone in engineering eventually.

Personally I still see zero signal from KRMA-DT's Mt. Morrison transmitter, so unless they switch back to RP it's not an issue for me. :D

There's a contact form (http://www.rmpbs.org/contact/) on the Rocky Mountain PBS web site. Select "I have a question about my TV."

Or call them and leave a message with viewer services; it'll get kicked up to someone in engineering eventually.

Personally I still see zero signal from KRMA-DT's Mt. Morrison transmitter, so unless they switch back to RP it's not an issue for me. :D

I was hoping to get a more direct path to engineering. When I used the form to report the problem with 6-2 audio, I waited 6 weeks to get what appeared to be a boiler plate response from viewer services that they had made some recent changes that should make things better. What they had done, if anything, had not improved my situation.

Since the problem was created between Wednesday and Friday, I was hoping someone might still remember what they did. By the time a message makes its way through the filters, if it even does, I am concerned that engineering will no longer remember what they changed.

Since the problem was created between Wednesday and Friday, I was hoping someone might still remember what they did. By the time a message makes its way through the filters, if it even does, I am concerned that engineering will no longer remember what they changed.
Actually, the chief of engineering at KRMA-DT's pretty on the ball, so I know he'll know.

By the way, that's how I got in touch with him - I left a message with viewer services asking about the transmitter move and he's the one that called me back.

I have read the past few posts about 6.1, but am confused if something has changed or not. I used to get it perfectly, then it started cutting out for a few secoids at a time at night, even with a sginal strength in the 80s. But a few nights ago it just disappeared. I get the thing telling me what program is on, but otherwise a blank screen. Did they move where they are transmitting from just recently? I'm only 3 miles line of sight to RP. Did they move from there? I still get 6.2 just fine.

I have read the past few posts about 6.1, but am confused if something has changed or not. I used to get it perfectly, then it started cutting out for a few secoids at a time at night, even with a sginal strength in the 80s. But a few nights ago it just disappeared. I get the thing telling me what program is on, but otherwise a blank screen. Did they move where they are transmitting from just recently? I'm only 3 miles line of sight to RP. Did they move from there? I still get 6.2 just fine.
FYI: That last indication was that the transmitter is on Mt Morrison.

Your problem seems to be the same one I have. I first noticed the problem on Friday evening (10/12/2007). Everything had been fine at noon on Wednesday (10/10/2007). I am not sure whether I tuned in 6-1 between those times. The fact that we receive 6-2 fine, says the KRMA signal is being received. Oxothuk and I both think that something has been done to the PSIP data that some ATSC tuners cannot handle.

Would you be willing to say what model TV or other ATSC tuner equipped unit you are seeing the problem with? Someone in broadcast engineering might be interested.

Posted by sunshinedawg:
I'm picking up 11-1 (33-1) again, watched Greatest American Hero tonight. Not sure why they were off the air. They suddenly disappeared a few months ago and came back just as suddenly.
I checked and I'm receiving them again also. Had black screen on 11-1, infomercials on 11-2. However, they still haven't fixed their PSIP, so only one of my receivers can decode their signal.

FYI: That last indication was that the transmitter is on Mt Morrison.

Your problem seems to be the same one I have. I first noticed the problem on Friday evening (10/12/2007). Everything had been fine at noon on Wednesday (10/10/2007). I am not sure whether I tuned in 6-1 between those times. The fact that we receive 6-2 fine, says the KRMA signal is being received. Oxothuk and I both think that something has been done to the PSIP data that some ATSC tuners cannot handle.

Would you be willing to say what model TV or other ATSC tuner equipped unit you are seeing the problem with? Someone in broadcast engineering might be interested.


It's a Sharp about a year old. LC-37D40U. So can this be corrected? I watch 6.1 a lot. What exactly does PSIP stand for?

It's a Sharp about a year old. LC-37D40U. So can this be corrected? I watch 6.1 a lot. What exactly does PSIP stand for?

Program and System Information Protocol (PSIP) is the glue that holds the digital television (DTV) signal together.

I suspect that right now the 6-1 PSIP is not in full compliance with the standards, but some tuners can still process the signal. Ours cannot.

While there may be updates that can be done to the TV tuners, the real answer is for KRMA to fix their PSIP data. It used to be OK.

I suggest that you contact KRMA and report your problem. The more of us that complain, the better the chance that it will be fixed soon.

To add to the data regarding 6-1 signal: I receive 6-1 fine on the ATSC tuner in my Vizio VX32L, but neither of the ATSC tuners on my 2 DIRECTV HR20-700s will get the audio.

Anyone having any trouble getting KCNC-DT (CBS 4-1)? I'm getting nothing. I have an HR10-250 and a signal level check shows next to no signal level on 35. KMGH-DT (ABC 7-1) and KUSA-DT (NBC 9-1) work but are a bit lower than normal and break up a little.

Well i finally got a digital tuner, Panasonic DMR-EZ17. My question is on a 4:3 standard tv some channels have black bars on all sides is this normal?

To add to the data regarding 6-1 signal: I receive 6-1 fine on the ATSC tuner in my Vizio VX32L, but neither of the ATSC tuners on my 2 DIRECTV HR20-700s will get the audio.

I have the same issue here as well with my HR20. I recorded Austin City Limits a few nights ago and found no audio and figured it was just the new CE software release, but after reading your post I checked again and realize there still is no audio for 6-1 on my HR20. I hope they get it fixed as I have another shot to record ACL tonight before it goes away.


********OT**********
So when do World Series tickets go on sale for non-season ticket holders?

Don

led to

The temperature in he11 is still about 40 deg F. It ain't quite there yet.
:eek:

This morning I heard the weather report and the temperature in he11 has dropped to about -16 degrees F. Yes sports fans, it has indeed frozen over. Therefore, according to the paper, WS tickets go on sale Monday at 10 AM. How 'bout dem Rockies!!!
:D

I have the same issue here as well with my HR20. I recorded Austin City Limits a few nights ago and found no audio and figured it was just the new CE software release, but after reading your post I checked again and realize there still is no audio for 6-1 on my HR20. I hope they get it fixed as I have another shot to record ACL tonight before it goes away.Amusing coincidence: I first noticed the lack of audio when I tried to watch ACL on my HR20. :)

I have the same issue here as well with my HR20. I recorded Austin City Limits a few nights ago and found no audio and figured it was just the new CE software release, but after reading your post I checked again and realize there still is no audio for 6-1 on my HR20. I hope they get it fixed as I have another shot to record ACL tonight before it goes away.


********OT**********


led to



This morning I heard the weather report and the temperature in he11 has dropped to about -16 degrees F. Yes sports fans, it has indeed frozen over. Therefore, according to the paper, WS tickets go on sale Monday at 10 AM. How 'bout dem Rockies!!!
:D

Rockies win the pennant at Coors Field!!! A lot of people don't know how hard it is to win a pennant. WooHoo!!! The tower is going up!!! 2007 is indeed a very good year. I'll be at Coors Field Monday at 10 AM, but will need some luck to score some tickets. All season ticket holders get another chance at buying extra World Series tickets on Sunday, so there may not be many left on Monday.

Don

I just talked to someone in KRMA viewer services. That person indicated that they have received multiple reports of the problem with 6-1 that started on Friday 10/12/207 and that the information has been forwarded to Engineering. That was all I got from her.

Has anyone heard anything from KRMA Engineering?

I just talked to someone in KRMA viewer services. That person indicated that they have received multiple reports of the problem with 6-1 that started on Friday 10/12/207 and that the information has been forwarded to Engineering. That was all I got from her.

Has anyone heard anything from KRMA Engineering?

I sent an e-mail last night through the web site, but have heard nothing yet.

Amusing coincidence: I first noticed the lack of audio when I tried to watch ACL on my HR20. :)

This weeks show has "The Decemberists" and "Explosions in the Sky". Both are pretty interesting groups, I enjoyed the Decemberists album, and I have seen EITS on Conan. They do the opening music for Friday Night Lights. I was really looking forward to seeing them in concert. I recorded the show, but only got around to checking it last night when I found the audio missing. Until I saw the posts here, I figured it was a glitch in the HR20.

Unfortunately as of lunch time today, I still do not have audio on 6-1. I sure hope someone really is working on it.

Well i finally got a digital tuner, Panasonic DMR-EZ17. My question is on a 4:3 standard tv some channels have black bars on all sides is this normal?
does this happen with all digital tuners or do others not have this problem?

I just talked to someone in KRMA viewer services. That person indicated that they have received multiple reports of the problem with 6-1 that started on Friday 10/12/207 and that the information has been forwarded to Engineering. That was all I got from her.

Has anyone heard anything from KRMA Engineering?

Do you think this PSIP isse is what may have been causing my problem with 6.1 even before it disappeared altogether? It used to be perfect, then maybe 6 months ago I started having a problem where it would blank out for three or four seconds at a time, then come back. It might do it once an hour, or more commonly every few minutes, and at its worst, two or three times a minute. Sometime not at all. But all the while, signal strength was 84 or so. And it only did it at night, whren 6.1 was broadcasting widescreen or HD. Drove me nuts. Do you suppose for the last 6 months their PSIP was somehow "on the edge," and now it is over the edge?

I just talked to someone in KRMA viewer services. That person indicated that they have received multiple reports of the problem with 6-1 that started on Friday 10/12/207 and that the information has been forwarded to Engineering. That was all I got from her.

Has anyone heard anything from KRMA Engineering?

I talked to them this afternoon, and got the same tour of receptionists with the same results, "The information has been passed to engineering, they have received many calls about the issue and they are working on it". I also sent an email but have not heard back on that front.

FWIW, I told the receptionist that I had been hoping to watch ACL tonight to see the Decemberists. She said if it is not working they 'might' look in to replaying the show at some point after I told her AFAIK tonight is the last showing. I do not plan to hold my breath for that one. Next week Femi Kuti is on, another interesting performer.

Just checked and still no audio here.

Well i finally got a digital tuner, Panasonic DMR-EZ17. My question is on a 4:3 standard tv some channels have black bars on all sides is this normal?
does this happen with all digital tuners or do others not have this problem?

On some shows, yes. On those, I usually just hit "zoom" to fill the screen, because you get pretty much all the picture but with no distortion like in stretch mode.

Anyone having any trouble getting KCNC-DT (CBS 4-1)? I'm getting nothing. I have an HR10-250 and a signal level check shows next to no signal level on 35. KMGH-DT (ABC 7-1) and KUSA-DT (NBC 9-1) work but are a bit lower than normal and break up a little.So no-one had a problem with loss of signal from KCNC-DT yesterday? There was still little or no signal earlier today but its back now. Strange!

This weeks show has "The Decemberists" and "Explosions in the Sky". Both are pretty interesting groups, I enjoyed the Decemberists album, and I have seen EITS on Conan. They do the opening music for Friday Night Lights. I was really looking forward to seeing them in concert. I recorded the show, but only got around to checking it last night when I found the audio missing. Until I saw the posts here, I figured it was a glitch in the HR20.

Unfortunately as of lunch time today, I still do not have audio on 6-1. I sure hope someone really is working on it.

I watched part of ACL. It was in 5.1 audio. I have a Samsung SIR-T451 tuner. Really liked "Explosions in the Sky". TitanTV shows 6.1 repeating this ACL show this evening at 8:00pm.

Receiving 2.0 audio on 6.1 at the moment. They are showing "Ghost in Your Genes" as part of NOVA. I'm catching it part way through but from what I've seen it's very interesting.

Well, I just checked the 8PM showing of ACL, and still no audio.....one last chance to grab this show at 11PM and then I guess we are up the creek. Jeez, now where is that KRMA donation card I just got in the mail?

Do you think this PSIP isse is what may have been causing my problem with 6.1 even before it disappeared altogether? It used to be perfect, then maybe 6 months ago I started having a problem where it would blank out for three or four seconds at a time, then come back. It might do it once an hour, or more commonly every few minutes, and at its worst, two or three times a minute. Sometime not at all. But all the while, signal strength was 84 or so. And it only did it at night, whren 6.1 was broadcasting widescreen or HD. Drove me nuts. Do you suppose for the last 6 months their PSIP was somehow "on the edge," and now it is over the edge?
I do not think the 2 issues are related.

I would suspect a weak signal or some type of interference as the cause for the dropouts that you were seeing. The move to Mt. Morrison has reduced the signal strength for some. The dropouts can be also be in the signal being broadcast, if there is a problem with the feed to the transmitter.

I tend to stay up late and often watch the This Old House family of shows at 1AM. I often see a problem that lasts about 1 minute during the last third of the program.
During most other times, I have seen little breakup.

The KRMA 6-1 problem that I first observed early Friday evening (10/12/2007) has me pretty confused. It is strange that different tuners are affected in different ways. My Philips 42PF7320A cannot recover the sound or the picture. My Vizio VX32L TV and my Philips DVDR3535H recorder get picture and sound. I believe the person with a Sharp LC37-37D40U does not get picture or sound. Users of the DIRECTV HR20 report picture, but no sound.

I do not know a lot about PSIP or the current standards for digital transmission but I did a little browsing at http://www.psip.org/psip_information.html

I looked at ATSC Recommended Practice A/69:
Program and System Information Protocol Implementation Guidelines for Broadcasters 25 June 2002,

I extracted the following from the document:
PSIP STRUCTURE
PSIP is a collection of tables, each of which describes elements of typical digital television services [4]. Figure 4.1 shows the primary components and the notation used to describe them. The packets of the base tables are all labeled with a base packet identifier (PID) (base_PID). The base tables are:

• System Time Table (STT)
• Rating Region Table (RRT)
• Master Guide Table (MGT)
• Virtual Channel Table (VCT)
The Event Information Tables (EIT) are a second set of tables, whose packet identifiers are defined in the MGT. The Extended Text Tables (ETT) are a third set of tables, and similarly, their PIDs are defined in the MGT.
...
There are certain “must have” items and “must do” rules of operation. If the PSIP elements are missing or wrong, there may be severe consequences, which will vary depending on the type of receiver. The following are key elements that must be set and/or checked by each station:
• Transport Stream Identification (TSID). The TSID must be set correctly in all three locations (PAT, VCT common information, and virtual channel-specific information).
...
For digital services, the channel_TSIDs listed in the VCT must match the TSIDs listed in the MPEG Program Association Table (PAT) where the digital service is transmitted. This may be done automatically by the PSIP encoder, but should be verified by the broadcaster or changed in the special cases of cross announcement agreements or other special circumstances.
...
Most Common Mistakes
Experience has shown that certain errors are common in many PSIP implementations. These problems typically include the following:
• Missing tables, particularly the STT and EIT.
• Major channel number set to the DTV RF channel number, rather than the associated (legacy) NTSC channel number.
• TSID set to 0 or 1, the NTSC TSID, or another station’s TSID; or not set the same in the three required places.
• System time missing or set to 00:00:00 on 1/6/1980

I wonder if the TSID numbers are not the same in all the required places, and some tuners do not cross-check and are able to recover the signals. Obviously, that is just a WAG.

The KRMA 6-1 problem that I first observed early Friday evening (10/12/2007) has me pretty confused. It is strange that different tuners are affected in different ways. .....................
I wonder if the TSID numbers are not the same in all the required places, and some tuners do not cross-check and are able to recover the signals. Obviously, that is just a WAG.

Nice piece of research, I wonder if the folks at KRMA have looked at that page too....
:rolleyes:

Just checked the recording of ACL on my HR20, still have a great picture and NO SOUND....so much for recording or even watching the Decemberists after 4 tries starting last Friday.....ah, there is that member donation envelope......I wonder if they will even get it fixed for the next show with Femi Kuti next week????
:mad:

I do not think the 2 issues are related.

I would suspect a weak signal or some type of interference as the cause for the dropouts that you were seeing. The move to Mt. Morrison has reduced the signal strength for some. The dropouts can be also be in the signal being broadcast, if there is a problem with the feed to the transmitter.

I tend to stay up late and often watch the This Old House family of shows at 1AM. I often see a problem that lasts about 1 minute during the last third of the program.
During most other times, I have seen little breakup.

When approximately did the transmission move to Morrison?

Just to add another data point to the KRMA issues... I swung my antenna around toward Morrison last night and received 6.2 with picture and sound but 6.1 had no picture or sound using my DISH 921 receiver.

I just checked about 20 minutes ago and KRMA-DT 6-1 is OK on all my tuners. My Philips 42PF7320A which had not been able to get 6-1 since Friday 10/12/2007 was getting it fine shortly before 1PM on Wednesday 10/17/2007. My Vizio VX32LTV and my Philips DVDR3575H recorder continue to get 6-1 OK.

UPDATE 1:
A little more info. I got an email frome KRMA engineering support, with a 10/17/2007 11:34AM timestamp, asking what my problem was. I gave them a call and told the person it was OK now for me. I asked what had been wrong. She said that all their equipment had looked OK, but there may have been a problem with the TV guide generator which inserts data into their stream. They re-booted the TV guide generator. That seems to have solved my problem.

UPDATE 2:
I just realized that the TV that was in trouble is the oldest one, which does not support the TV guide function. If that data got a little funny, that TV may not have any idea what to do. The units that use the TV guide may be better programmed to handle problems with it.

When approximately did the transmission move to Morrison?

KRMA-DT has been bouncing between Mt Morrison and Republic Plaza since early August 2007.

I just checked the signal on 6-1 and the audio is back up on my HR20. Any of the rest of you with HR20's hearing the audio now???? I sugested to the KRMA engineer (like kenavs I got an email today too) that she check the forum thread for some updates on the problems and the current status, so report back here and with a little luck, KRMA engineering will pull up the page a be reading the results of their efforts. Now if only we could figure out how to get them to replay the ACL concert with the Decemberists again with sound included.

:)

I just checked the signal on 6-1 and the audio is back up on my HR20. Any of the rest of you with HR20's hearing the audio now???? I sugested to the KRMA engineer (like kenavs I got an email today too) that she check the forum thread for some updates on the problems and the current status, so report back here and with a little luck, KRMA engineering will pull up the page a be reading the results of their efforts. Now if only we could figure out how to get them to replay the ACL concert with the Decemberists again with sound included.

:)It's working on my two HR20s as well.

I'll see what I have when I get home.

I just checked the signal on 6-1 and the audio is back up on my HR20. My MythTV box is happy now, getting audio+video on both 6-1 and 6-2.

I still get no picture or sound on 6-1 with my SIR-T150.

Oh wait, since they moved to Morrison, I don't even get a sniff of their signal (even with my antenna pointed directly at Morrison) :(. Western Lafayette is a PBS-free location (no KDBI-DT either).

So nevermind, I can't help with PSIP information at all.

Greg

UPDATE 1:
A little more info. I got an email frome KRMA engineering support, with a 10/17/2007 11:34AM timestamp, asking what my problem was. I gave them a call and told the person it was OK now for me. I asked what had been wrong. She said that all their equipment had looked OK, but there may have been a problem with the TV guide generator which inserts data into their stream. They re-booted the TV guide generator. That seems to have solved my problem.


I noticed their time stamp was off by over an hour last night now its only off by 10 minutes.
Don't know all the stations have a difficult time keeping their guide current with both shows, date and time.

It would be nice if KDEV also knew about ATSC Recommended Practice A/69.

I just checked and I'm receiving KRMA OK both on 6-1 and 6-2, including my Dish 211 and 222 receivers. Funny how the Dish 921 apparently can't handle the PSIP but the others can. You'd think they'd have the same software.

KRMA is again working fine, audio and video, on the Dish 921. Dish uses a couple different operating systems for their receivers so it wouldn't surprise me if one model was working while another was not because of the software. But the difference could also be older the hardware used in the 921 compared to the 211 or 222.

So I did a channel scan with my E* 811 and it picked up channel 40-1 trough 16. No picture or sound, but signal strength of 70-75%. I looked around for but I can't find what channel it is. Any idea?
Just as an update, at Parker & Broncos Pkwy, I get:
KWGN
KDVR
KWHD
KTFD (spanish, I didn't know that they have Allstate commercials that are filmed with a spanish actor)
all with strong signal, everything else is a bust. The TV tries, but it's just not strong enough.
Also, I'm getting KDVR at 80%, which means it should be a nice world series.

So I did a channel scan with my E* 811 and it picked up channel 40-1 trough 16. I believe that is KRMT-DT, the Daystar religious channel. Not sure what subchannels should actually have programming, since their signal is too weak for my location.

KRMT's programming appears on channel 40-16 on my tuners. The first 15 subchannels are just black screens. Seems like another example of a station that can't get their PSIP data correct. I believe the max for all SD transmissions is about 6 sub-channels. It certainly isn't 16.

Where can I get updates on the new tower? I lost my links

Where can I get updates on the new tower? I lost my links


Lake Cedar Group Page (http://www.hdtvcolorado.com/)

I wish they'd send me some new pics.

I wish they'd send me some new pics.

I would like to see some new pics too, but at least it looks like they are indeed working. I drove by on 6/70 last week and it looks like a lot of work going on even from way below. It would be nice to see what they have accomplished though. On the plus side, after all those years of hearings, at least they are working.:D

Has it really been over 3 years ago that KUSA went HD for their local news cast? Isn't it wonderful how all the other stations quickly followed suit. NOT! It is amazing that KUSA remains the only local doing local HD. Do the rest of them think that they will just switch over night when the digital change comes?

I'm not holding my breath waiting for the other stations to do local HD. Even KUSA doesn't use it to its full advantage. Ever notice that all of the promos for the morning news, the news on channel 20, etc. are shot in SD when they have HD cameras available? Never could understand that.

KWGN has low ratings and is owned by a company trying to cover its newspaper business revenues. Same for KMGH and remember, they are the ones that had a coathanger digital transmitter. Fox is trying to unload KDVR so I don't see them doing the upgrade to HD. And then we have the deep pockets of CBS not upgrading KCNC. I'd say KUSA is going to be the only player in the market for some time. And I don't think the analog shutoff will be any factor whatsoever.

KUSA still screws up the HD on Leno. Thursday night, the first 1/2 hour was in SD before they turned on the HD. You would think that somehow they would finally automate this process.

Well, at least we have some local HD. The smaller markets will be SD for a long time. Some of them don't even have digital low power temp transmitters in place and some that do can't pass network HD programming.

I'm not holding my breath waiting for the other stations to do local HD.

Precisely.

Even after the transition, I don't expect the other local stations to do anything other than 4:3 SD.

KCNC will do HD news - CBS is rolling out HD news facilities in their O&O stations in order by market size. KCNC's time should be coming soon...

Once there are 2 HD news broadcasts available, I'd expect KMGH to follow suit to not be the only one of the big 3 not in HD.

Isn't more like 4 instead of 3 now...

Posted by dr_mal:
KCNC will do HD news - CBS is rolling out HD news facilities in their O&O stations in order by market size. KCNC's time should be coming soon...

CBS owns 13 stations that carry CBS programming - their main TV station assets. They also own various stations affiliated with CW and some independents, such as KCAL in LA. Of those 13 'CBS' stations, only WCBS in NY and KCBS in LA have local HD news. The others, which include many markets bigger than Denver - WBBM/Chicago, KYW/Philly, WBZ/Boston, KPIX/SF, KTVT/Dallas, WWJ/Detroit, WCCO/Min-St.Paul, WFOR/Miami, KOVR/Sacramento, KDKA/Pit, and WJZ/Balt - do not have local HD news. I checked each of the stations web sites.

So if CBS O&O's are rolling out local HD news by market size, I certainly don't see it coming to KCNC anytime soon. Remember, CBS is the network that cannot show every NFL game in HD each week. When they can do that, perhaps KCNC will have local HD news.

milehighmike - yesterday you posted "Fox is trying to unload KDVR." Tell me more. Would we have a local fox affiliate after that? Would they start up a new station, or buy another? When would all this happen? What's your source?

Posted by dr_mal:

CBS owns 13 stations that carry CBS programming - their main TV station assets. They also own various stations affiliated with CW and some independents, such as KCAL in LA. Of those 13 'CBS' stations, only WCBS in NY and KCBS in LA have local HD news. The others, which include many markets bigger than Denver - WBBM/Chicago, KYW/Philly, WBZ/Boston, KPIX/SF, KTVT/Dallas, WWJ/Detroit, WCCO/Min-St.Paul, WFOR/Miami, KOVR/Sacramento, KDKA/Pit, and WJZ/Balt - do not have local HD news. I checked each of the stations web sites.

So if CBS O&O's are rolling out local HD news by market size, I certainly don't see it coming to KCNC anytime soon. Remember, CBS is the network that cannot show every NFL game in HD each week. When they can do that, perhaps KCNC will have local HD news.
In addition to WCBS and KCBS, KYW is also doing local HD news. That's three more local news stations than a couple years ago. The expectation was always that the first few stations would take a while as they figure out all the logistical issues. Then they'd start moving down the list, theoretically converting each station a little quicker than the last. (This was my understanding from discussions I had with Walt DeHaven, KCNC's GM before WCBS's HD conversion)

According to the AVS HD programming thread (here (http://avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=164671)) :
CBS affiliates are converting their news operations to HD, according to Robert Seidel, CBS Vice President of Engineering and Advanced Technology. The transition will take place between now and the end of this year.

So I'm sticking with KCNC HD news "soon" But I'm not going to bother defining "soon" :) I wouldn't expect it to be more than a year away, in any case.

milehighmike - yesterday you posted "Fox is trying to unload KDVR." Tell me more. Would we have a local fox affiliate after that? Would they start up a new station, or buy another? When would all this happen? What's your source?
Here's a source: http://www.tvweek.com/news/2007/06/news_corp_selling_off_9_fox_af.php

Of course we'd still have a Fox affiliate, it just wouldn't be owned by News Crop anymore. Right now, our ABC, NBC, and MyNetworkTV affiliates are owned by other companies, while our CBS and CW (?) affiliates are owned by the network.

Well, if KYW is doing local HD news, it sure isn't reflected on their website. Go to kyw.com and click on the TV schedule on the left hand side of the home page, then check the HD only box when the TitanTV schedule page comes up and scroll to the 11:00 PM timeframe. That was my source for the post. Perhaps TitanTV hasn't updated their schedules yet, but one would think that KYW didn't start local HD news yesterday and I have to wonder why KYW would put up with incorrect info on its website. I do agree that I can't define 'soon' either except that I think it'll be well over a year. Hope I'm wrong!

As far as KDVR being on the selling block, dr_mal's cite is accurate. I believe it's also been reported in the local papers.

Well, if KYW is doing local HD news, it sure isn't reflected on their website.
Well, you know, except for their big press release announcing the start of their HD news here (http://cbs3.com/press/CBS.3.CW.2.308224.html) ;)

Thanks for the link, dr_mal.

One would think that KYW would want their programming section up-to-date. Guess not or it wouldn't surprise me that they don't even know. I have to wonder how many of the other CBS O&O's are doing local HD and their web sites don't reflect it either.

SPAM:

Anybody need a copy of Transformers on HD DVD? I ordered from Amazon and then ended up getting it from the awesome Circuit City deal last week. I don't want to have to pay to send it back to Amazon if anyone local would like it.

$25. PM me if interested.

Just checking in to see I don't get server not found on every site (hint,hint Paciolan & mlb.com ).

Don

Just checking in to see I don't get server not found on every site (hint,hint Paciolan & mlb.com ).

Don

Not to worry, some 'computer junkie/professional ticket scalper' from Alabama got on and got your tickets. You can buy them on ebay or Craigs list for only 300% over face value or more as the price goes up as the Boston people start bidding.
:rolleyes:

Posted by dr_mal:

CBS owns 13 stations that carry CBS programming - their main TV station assets. They also own various stations affiliated with CW and some independents, such as KCAL in LA. Of those 13 'CBS' stations, only WCBS in NY and KCBS in LA have local HD news. The others, which include many markets bigger than Denver - WBBM/Chicago, KYW/Philly, WBZ/Boston, KPIX/SF, KTVT/Dallas, WWJ/Detroit, WCCO/Min-St.Paul, WFOR/Miami, KOVR/Sacramento, KDKA/Pit, and WJZ/Balt - do not have local HD news. I checked each of the stations web sites.

So if CBS O&O's are rolling out local HD news by market size, I certainly don't see it coming to KCNC anytime soon. Remember, CBS is the network that cannot show every NFL game in HD each week. When they can do that, perhaps KCNC will have local HD news.

All of them will have HD cameras for news stories; WBBM Chicago has HD field cameras since spring. But until they move into their new facility, which won't be done until summer 2008, they're SD 4:3 until then.

All of them will have HD cameras for news stories; WBBM Chicago has HD field cameras since spring. But until they move into their new facility, which won't be done until summer 2008, they're SD 4:3 until then.
Thanks for the update from Chicago. I was wondering why they weren't up and running with HD news yet - I thought they were supposed to be right behind NY and LA.

I emailed KYW to ask them why their programming schedule link from Titan TV doesn't reflect the fact that they are broadcasting local HD. The reply I received, from Perry J. Casciato, merely stated that KYW does local HD but was silent on the Titan TV issue. Oh well, at least I got a reply.

I also noticed on a different thread tonight that CBS owned KTVT in Dallas also does local HD. So I guess Titan TV isn't very accurate. I hope you're right, dr_mal, that KCNC will have local HD sooner rather than later.

I also noticed on a different thread tonight that CBS owned KTVT in Dallas also does local HD. So I guess Titan TV isn't very accurate. I hope you're right, dr_mal, that KCNC will have local HD sooner rather than later.
Me too - crow isn't my favorite flavor :)

You're right about the crow, dr_mal ;)

Seems like you've been 'away' for awhile. Welcome back!

Last night 6.1 was gone again, and my screen displayed 18.4, but no pic or sound. Is it gone for everybody?

I, too, lost Channel 6.1 yesterday. Now I receive the Spanish PBS channel on 6.1 (it was 6.2 Sunday). With all the changes with KRMA between downtown Denver and Mt. Morrison, who knows where to point the antenna!

I cannot receive any digital signal from Channel 12. My location is shaded to the west by Green Mtn. I do receive the analog signal from 12. Recently, I searched the web and found a request from KBDI Channel 12 to change from digital channel 38 to channel 13. The FCC web page showed the change was approval. No time frame is given.

Does anyone know what is really going on with Channels 6, 12, and PBS in Denver? Will they both move to Mt. Morrison or are we stuck in some type of TV "Ground Hog Day" movie?

I just checked and it looks like KRMA 6-1 is on and 'fine' tonight. I didn't check last night so I can't speak to that.

I just checked and it looks like KRMA 6-1 is on and 'fine' tonight. I didn't check last night so I can't speak to that.Ditto.

My MythTV setup has been pretty sensitive to screwups in KRMA's PSIP data, so I suspect they have fixed whatever problem was causing some folks to lose them last night.

I don't expect KBDI to move to Mt. Morrison, since they have always had both their analog and digital transmitters on Squaw. If they do move their digital from ch38 to ch13, that might be enough for me since I get a watchable analog signal on 12.

KBDI claimed financial hardship with being assigned digital 38 - power bill. The applied to the FCC several times to move to 13 before it was approved. I don't think they can move from 38 to 13 until analog shutoff due to interference with analog 13 in the Springs.