Someone please tell me what's up with nearly all stations reporting an incorrect time in their PSIPs. Some of them are off by as much as 15 minutes, causing my Samsung tuner to show the wrong programming info!!

I am curious if KPXC (Ion TV) is doing anything yet about their digital signal? The FCC shows they should be running a temporary permit allowing 10 kW, but my dtv stb doesn't catch a 'sniff' of a signal from that channel.

Also, on three separate ocassions, I have caught signal strengths up to 30% on channel 42 (Pueblo-Colorado Springs?), but not stable enough to decode the PSIP. This three times were early in the morning, when signal strength was up. Does anyone in Denver see anything on that channel? The FCC shows that KOAA-DT (NBC affiliate) should be running 880 kW now. I also noted an LPTV dt station in Denver licensed to sign on ch. 42 sometime, but I highly doubt it is them. I am located 10 miles southwest of Greeley.

Looks like that would make the broadcast frequency go from about 617 MHz (UHF) to 213 MHz (VHF). Does anyone know if that would that be good for reception for those of us NW of Denver who get shadowed by the mountains.

If you look at HDTVprimer.com, it makes sense that the antenna gain for most of our UHF antennas is lower on channel 13 than on 38, but the coax cable loss is lower for lower freqencies (and channels). So maybe that balances out (?).
What about the ability of the lower frequencies to get around the mountain somehow. Diffraction is apparently better for low frequencies http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/siting.html
so channel 13 would seem to be better, but only if the keep the power the same (UHF are allowed to broadcast at 1000 kW, while VHF are only at 160 or 50 kW). What is their current power, and what power they are applying for?

Maybe there is hope for us after all for KBDI.



KBDI claimed financial hardship with being assigned digital 38 - power bill. The applied to the FCC several times to move to 13 before it was approved. I don't think they can move from 38 to 13 until analog shutoff due to interference with analog 13 in the Springs.

Is it just me or does the Fox cameras look really grainy? Almost like they have the gain boosted.

Looks grainy to me, too. But....what's with the green screen behind home plate? Are they blocking local ads?

Looks grainy to me, too. But....what's with the green screen behind home plate? Are they blocking local ads?

Grainy here as well. I've never been in Coors field for a night game, so I'm not sure if they had to up the gain to compensate for poor lighting or what. But it sure was quite obvious. It seemed to be on almost all of the different angles, except the one from the air (on the blimp or helecopter or whatever was up there).

As for the green screen, that is for overlaying ads during the pitches. I noticed right after the rockies home run, some of the smoke from the fireworks blew in front of the green screen and really fuzzed out whatever ad was displaying there.

It was a good game, though. It looks like there will be a 7th game in the series after all! :o

Is it just me or does the Fox cameras look really grainy? Almost like they have the gain boosted.

Is that what was up? I thought the picture at the game last night looked much worse than the picture from the Boston games too. I figured they might have changed encoders along with the venue, but grainy cameras going into an encoder could mess up the encoding too.

I found the picture to have an overly aggressive 'red shift', and I found the purples to be very 'muted and subdued'. I am not sure that was a problem with the cameras or the feed though.
:(

Seems like better PQ tonight. But, outfield shots do look grainy. Maybe the poorer lighting in the outfield cause them to turn up the gain for those shots.

I don't see muted or subdued purples, just muted Rockies bats. Color rendition looks excellent to me.

...............I don't see muted or subdued purples, just muted Rockies bats. Color rendition looks excellent to me.

Way too much red in the post game celebration on my set.....
:(

Way too much red in the post game celebration on my set.....
:(

Agreed!

Watching KCNC's late-night run of CBS prime time, and I've got to ask:

Do I have to buy KCNC an HD VTR?

I can't believe they still have no way of timeshifting HD.

Watching KCNC's late-night run of CBS prime time, and I've got to ask:

Do I have to buy KCNC an HD VTR?

I can't believe they still have no way of timeshifting HD.
They do - they timeshift primetime each and every night.

I don't know why they weren't able to hold on to the primetime stuff for a few extra hours - bummer that they didn't show it in HD :(

They do - they timeshift primetime each and every night.

I don't know why they weren't able to hold on to the primetime stuff for a few extra hours - bummer that they didn't show it in HD :(

They never seem to when they delay primetime until later - for whatever reason.

Sigh…

9news did a blurb about the DTV transition on one of its dinner hour newscasts yesterday. First time I've seen that on local news. They also added an info link on their web homepage.

I'm new to the forum, so Hi!

Any Northern Front Rangers here? I'm on the north side of Fort Collins, using inexpensive PC-based gear and an attic-mounted broadband antenna to try to pick up OTA digital TV from Denver -- only very modest success. How are others up here doing? I'm especially interested in how one might get a usable signal from KRMA-DT or KBDI-DT; no joy up here as yet...

Jim McCauley

I'm new to the forum, so Hi!

Any Northern Front Rangers here? I'm on the north side of Fort Collins, using inexpensive PC-based gear and an attic-mounted broadband antenna to try to pick up OTA digital TV from Denver -- only very modest success. How are others up here doing? I'm especially interested in how one might get a usable signal from KRMA-DT or KBDI-DT; no joy up here as yet...

Jim McCauley

Hi Jim McCauley! Welcome to the Denver dtv forum. My name is Jim and I live 10 miles southwest of Greeley. You're easily another 30 miles north of me. I have a Channel Master 3228 (8 bay) uhf antenna mounted outside @ 20' on an RS antenna rotator. I am also using a 12db line amp to improve the Denver channels (4, 6, 7, & 9). The inside equipment is a Hisense DTV receiver.

You MIGHT be able to pull in KBDI-DT with an outside antenna, but I highly doubt you're going to pull in KRMA-DT anytime soon, since they switched to Mt. Morrison and are not at full power. I've only had them in here a couple of times since they moved to Mt. Morrison. You should be picking up KWGN-DT (2), KDVR-DT (31), KFCT-DT (22), and if you swing your antenna north, you'll get KGWN-DT 5-1 & 5-2 (Cheyenne CBS).

To others from Denver reading this: I posted earlier on this page a query about KPXC-DT (Ion TV) and if they have even been testing a digital signal yet. I would really like to know if there is any activity with them yet. If you have any comments, please scroll up on this page and read my comments. Thanks!

KDEV-LP in Denver/Aurora is an affiliate of the Retro Television Network. There isn't so much as a whisper of their low-power analog signal here in Fort Collins, of course -- but their DTV signal comes in clear as a bell.

MythTV's odd way of reporting "unknown" channels didn't help much in identifying the DTV source -- it reported the signal as "Unknown 11#0." (I'm not yet signed up with an info-grabbing service.)

It took a while for me to figure it out, but apparently the signal is originating in Cheyenne WY from KDEV-DT -- which I am getting from the _rear_ of my highly directional antenna pointed due south at Denver.

That Terk up in the attic must have an interesting rear-lobe pattern :-)


Jim McCauley

Jim, welcome to the forum.

KDEV DT 11 is the digital counterpart of KDEV analog channel 33 out of Cheyenne. Their digital transmitter is due west of Ft. Collins. If you are north of Ft. Collins, you're probably receiving the signal off the side of your antenna, not the back.

This station has never sent out correct PSIP information. It may not send out any PSIP information at all. As a result, its call letters, program guide, etc. are non-existent and most receivers cannot "see" the signal. I only have one receiver of the 5 digital receivers I have that can decode this station for reception. That's why you receiving it as "unknown 11#0".

I receive the channel as 11-1 and it also has a subchannel 11-2 that mostly shows Spanish programming. If the PSIP was correct, the channel should remap to 33-1, as it is required to do. This station doesn't respond email inquiries, doesn't conform to the FCC's PSIP requirements, and is frequently off the air for weeks at a time.

I gave up on OTA signals in Greeley. All I ever got was fox out of ft collins and CBS out of Cheyenne. CBS out of Cheyenne looks horrible by the way. Terrible macroblocking during broncos games.

I got a new panny plasma that has a QAM tuner in it. Since I have comcast internet and basic TV I get all kinds of HD and digital now (without an upgrade) Its soo much easier than all this OTA stuff.

Until they put the new tower up...forget it. This area just isn't thought about right now as far as HD OTA is concerned. I spent a lot of time and learned quite a bit. I gave my OTA tuner away to a friend.

Actually, I'm looking forward to just watching the whole OTA thing evolve. The delay in getting the Lake Cedar tower up and the odd transmitter placement decisions of the PBS affiliates has probably forced most DTV fans to go to cable or satellite, and the delivery capacity of the Internet keeps rising so fast that it makes me wonder how many OTA watchers will be left by February 2009.

That's basically why I've limited my DTV investment to a PCI card, at least up to this point.


Jim McCauley

Well, this is my first post. And of course it has to be a question.

I'm out in Castle Rock and have my MythTV box with a HD-5500 and HD-3000 cards pulling in all the Denver channels just fine with my roof tripod mounted Winegard HD9095P 95" directional UHF antenna pointed downtown.

Well, that is, until about two weeks ago or so (when I noticed it). It seems that KCNC, KMGH, and KUSA have reduced their signal strength off the skyscraper (republic plaza?) downtown. All my stations used to be from the low 80's to the 90's in signal strength.

I originally thought the wind had shifted my antenna again and perhaps the fishing line I used to tie it down with the last time had broken. So up on the roof I went with my laptop. I brought solid core wire up with me this time to tie the antenna so it wouldn't move. The fishing line was gone (sun probably rotted it). Logged into the myth box over wireless, brought up dtvsignal and proceeded to adjust the antenna back to where it was before I even started. It seems that it hadn't shifted at all. Tied it down with wire just to be sure since I was up there.

So my signals look like this right now:
KCNC (35) 52%
KRMA (18) 75%
KWGN (34) 93%
KMGH (17) 60%
KUSA (16) 53%
KDVR (32) 90%

Odd that all three of the Lake Cedar Group channels are now weak compared to what they were a few weeks ago.

Does anyone know if anything has occurred lately for these stations. There is probably nothing I can do until either they boost the signal, or move it to lookout mountain. So is there an amplifier that anyone would recommend that would boost those signals but not interfere with the stations that work fine for me now?

Strange - there's been no change in signal strength here in Louisville.

I wonder if something has gone up between RP and you that may be blocking the signal. I know there have been a few cranes that have gone up of late in downtown Denver.

Could be the fall. Trees are losing their leaves. Funny as that sounds, but every year about this time we get posts like this.

Well, I don't think it's the leaves. My antenna is on top of my roof and there is a line of houses all down hill from mine. It has a completely unobstructed view of downtown (when the air is clear enough that I can see it). I'm kind of on top of a hill overlooking most of everything at 6500 feet altitude. The only homes that are higher than me are to the south of me so that won't affect signal strength.

It's also odd that it's only the Lake Cedar Group stations that have gotten weaker. Are they're any other ATSC signals coming from downtown or has it always been just the Lake Cedar Group?

I bought the Winegard antenna so it would reach out and get those signals (and probably signals from mars if I point it at it) The KDVR that is on lookout mountain that is broadcasting 1/3 power (from what I read on another site) and KWGN (don't know how much power they're using) are coming in over 90%.

I guess I could e-mail them and see what they say. Most likely if they've done something, my call won't change anything.

So in the end, it looks like my antenna is adequate for everything except the LCG channels until they move to their new antenna sometime in the spring of 2008.

In the mean time, I would still like to receive my channels. What AMP would be recommended to boost those channels? I tried an amp once before and it caused more harm than good. Is there an amp that can just boost certain frequencies?

chrisdos, welcome to the forum.

As others have suggested, some people see signal changes with the weather change as leaves leave etc. Also, since you are pretty far away in Castle Rock, has there been any major construction around you that might have added a building or a nearby house between you and Denver? Another thing might be to check your cables and especially your connections. Some times corrosion on the connectors can be a problem, especially if water has gotten in through the back of one of the connector crimps. Hopefully others in your area will comment on changes. I have not seen any changes here in Boulder, but with the low power levels of the networks, it doesn't take much to cause a problem.

****
Edit
Looks like you posted while I was writing and already answered the questions about the line of sight view. I would still wonder about connections on cables that are outside. I don't use an amp, although I have used one from Radio Shack in the past that mounts near the antenna. I am sure others will comment on the ones they use with success. Good luck. If all goes well we may have full power for most everyone within the year.

Actually, I'm looking forward to just watching the whole OTA thing evolve. The delay in getting the Lake Cedar tower up and the odd transmitter placement decisions of the PBS affiliates has probably forced most DTV fans to go to cable or satellite, and the delivery capacity of the Internet keeps rising so fast that it makes me wonder how many OTA watchers will be left by February 2009.

That's basically why I've limited my DTV investment to a PCI card, at least up to this point.
Jim McCauley

I don't believe that the bandwidth required exists at an affordable cost to most consumers and as more people come under the credit crunch I'm thankful for the OTA broadcasts. So come February 2009 I think many more will be thankful too.

Not much activity visible from the road on Lookout Mountain (at least on the roads easily accessible by my skinny tire bicycle). A security guard said they still had not started working on the tower itself, except for the piers, which I think might be visible in one of the older hdtvcolorado photos. This is the only picture I could get, of the support building.

Thanks gakon! Nice to see the progress continuing!

It's also odd that it's only the Lake Cedar Group stations that have gotten weaker. Are they're any other ATSC signals coming from downtown or has it always been just the Lake Cedar Group?

Now that KRMA-DT has moved to Mt. Morrison, yes, only LCG stations are left atop Republic.

The only stations ever broadcasting ATSC from Downtown were the LCG stations and KRMA-DT. KCNC-DT, KUSA-DT and KRMA-DT were always atop RP; until a few years ago KMGH-DT had a toy transmitter broadcasting from atop their building on Speer Boulevard, but they finally moved to RP, too. I believe KTVD-DT has always been atop RP too, but they became a LCG station by default when Gannett, owners of KUSA-DT, bought them.

KMGH-DT and KUSA-DT are still coming in quite strong for me; KCNC-DT has always been the RP station that has been the weakest for me and that required the most antenna tweaking.

I believe KTVD-DT has always been atop RP too, but they became a LCG station by default when Gannett, owners of KUSA-DT, bought them.
KTVD has always been part of LCG, long before the Gannett acquisition.

KTVD has always been part of LCG, long before the Gannett acquisition.

Interesting; I would have thought they'd have put their digital transmitter atop Morrison where their analog transmitter currently is.

It looks like Golden Mayor Chuck "I don't want no stinkin' tower" Baroch is history. Defeated in yesterday's election. Good Riddance!

It looks like Golden Mayor Chuck "I don't want no stinkin' tower" Baroch is history. Defeated in yesterday's election. Good Riddance!

Bummer.........
:D

Probably has radiation poisoning...........

Anyone else have a problem getting sufficient signal from KCNC about 8:30 this morning? I normally see from 76 to 82 on my Dish 811. This morning all I got was O to 49.

It looks like Golden Mayor Chuck "I don't want no stinkin' tower" Baroch is history. Defeated in yesterday's election. Good Riddance!

Nothing quite like a common enemy to unite the troops.

The best part, of course, is that he wasn't very smart in his opposition. Made himself look foolish more than once.

Anyone else have a problem getting sufficient signal from KCNC about 8:30 this morning? I normally see from 76 to 82 on my Dish 811. This morning all I got was O to 49.

I could not get them on my Vizio VX32L TV in Louisville this morning either. It was OK about noon I think.

Speaking of outages, is KFCT off the air again? I haven't had a sniff of signal from them for it seems like since the World Series ended.

gakon,
Thanks for the photo.

Glad to see the Golden Mayor go. Too bad the citizens of Golden can't collect from him the fees he spent fighting LCG.

Hey guys, who sells "Channel Master" here in town?

I remember someone getting CM antennas at True Value or ACE hardware. (They might have to order it without a shipping charge)

Was hoping to find somewhere today. I stopped by a couple of Ace Hardwares. Only one had a CM but not what I want.

Still have find a couple of True's.

I had a new roof put on this week & before I put the mast & stuff back up I want something better than the Winegaurd wing I had up that I got from Voom.

The last time I checked in Lowes, they had CM antennas. However, that was probably about a year ago.

I'll check, Thanks!

The last time I checked in Lowes, they had CM antennas. However, that was probably about a year ago.

Lowe's now carries "Philips" products - cables, connectors and antennae, like this one (http://www.consumer.philips.com/consumer/en/us/consumer/cc/_productid_SDV7700K_17_US_CONSUMER/TV-antenna+SDV7700K-17).

http://www.consumer.philips.com/catalog/SD/SDV7700K_17_webImage370.jpg

I saw that. They want a $100 for it. Also I don't need VHF. I just put the wing back up.

Ironically, after I recommended Lowes for CM products in an earlier post, my rotor died over the weekend. I went to Lowes and found the same thing - they only carry Phillips products. The Lowes I visited - off Arapahoe/I-25, didn't carry anything for outdoor needs - no antennas, no masts, no rotors. The salesperson told me they didn't sell and I can't find this stuff on their website either.

I sent a request for more updates and pictures to hdtvcolorado.com through the Contact Us section of their website. They responded that they will have new updates of content and pictures on their website by December. They also assured me that everything is on schedule for a Spring 2008 start up of the new tower. I'm not sure if start up means tower erection or actual broadcasting:confused:

From the... "who gives a crap" file", sCARE has just updated their website with new BS.

http://www.c-a-r-e.org/

From the... "who gives a crap" file", sCARE has just updated their website with new BS.

http://www.c-a-r-e.org/

I haven't seen it in a while. That site contains some of the most twisted, convoluted garbage I've ever seen. I feel sorry for those poor deer floating in the air at 1,000 feet!

Anyone who believes that crap needs to be educated, and those who still believe it need to be ignored when making public policy. Rant off.

From the... "who gives a crap" file", sCARE has just updated their website with new BS.

http://www.c-a-r-e.org/

I haven't seen it in a while. That site contains some of the most twisted, convoluted garbage I've ever seen. I feel sorry for those poor deer floating in the air at 1,000 feet!

Anyone who believes that crap needs to be educated, and those who still believe it need to be ignored when making public policy. Rant off.

I haven't seen it in a while. That site contains some of the most twisted, convoluted garbage I've ever seen. I feel sorry for those poor deer floating in the air at 1,000 feet!

Anyone who believes that crap needs to be educated, and those who still believe it need to be ignored when making public policy. Rant off.

It isn’t rocket science -- digital antennas require more power. You can’t have more powerful TV without more powerful towers.


ehm... heh

About a month ago, Public Broadcasting turned on a digital TV antenna on the ice bridge of the existing Channel 20 tower on Mt. Morrison (the tall one). Because of complaints about reception, Public Broadcasting is once more broadcasting from Republic Plaza downtown.

I was under the impression that KRMA-DT is back on the Morrison ice bridge, regardless of complaints about reception.


CARE was unable to secure enough pledges to proceed on a constitutional challenge to the Act.

I guess they got tired of subsidizing Deb's Lookout Mountain lifestyle. She will have to represent real clients instead.


Channel 2 KWGN (across the road from Buffalo Bill’s grave) is using the Act to tell the court that Jeffco zoning is totally preempted.

They wouldn't want too much radiation at Buffalo Bill's grave; he might get cancer or something. :D

Seriously, though, I am glad that KWGN is looking to get their digital facilities installed on the tall tower. I agree with their interpretation of "the Act".

If KWGN wants to get on the tower, won't that help reduce "blight"? Shouldn't that make the sCARE-ies happy? Oh, I forgot - that's not their real agenda.

If KWGN wants to get on the tower, won't that help reduce "blight"? Shouldn't that make the sCARE-ies happy? Oh, I forgot - that's not their real agenda.

I think KWGN wants to move their antenna from their "short" tower to their regular (taller) tower. They are currently on a tower that is under 200 feet tall. I don't think they intend to move to the LCG tower.

Another new post on the sCARE website. This one is good! (I thought she moved to BocaDel Vista?)

http://www.c-a-r-e.org/

Regarding KWGN's tower on Lookout. Judge Menendez (Hispanic and most likely pro-poor citizens who can't afford cable) has just ruled that the federal law that Bush passed regarding Lookout Mt., has preempted the county regulations and JeffCo can't do a thing about it.

sCARE loses. But, in traditional sCARE fashion, they still think they can have some last ditch hope to fight it. Yeah, Right.

---------------

I just read through the great Judge's ruling. (Because I don't have a life)
This is my favorite passage...The Court finds that the direct, limited language included by Congress in the Act
evinces only a clear intent that the towers should be expeditiously built and that litigation
delaying or stalling the efforts be ended. Wam, Bam, Thank you Mame

Another great ruling...
The Court does not reach this analysis, however, since the Court has found the Act preempts the December 20, 2006, and the July 24, 2002, BOA decisions. Because the Court has found preemption of those decisions, the Court finds CARE’s Rule 106 (a)(4) claim is also moot as it has been preempted. This ruling allows KWGN to add Channel 57 & Channel 34's digital transmitters to their big tower. And also blows sCARE's attempt to remove KWGN's smaller tower's digital antenna out of the water. Sorry sCARE, you lose again.

And lastly...
CARE’s Constitutional challenges to Public Law No. 109-466 are Dismissed as this Court lacks subject matter jurisdiction to hear these claims.
THE COURT FINDS, therefore, that since the Court has found preemption, this Court lacks subject matter jurisdiction to hear the rest of CARE’s constitutional claims. Accordingly, all of CARE’s constitutional claims are DISMISSED with prejudice. The judge then told sCARE to pound sand, regarding their ridiculous claim that the Federal law was unconstitutional.

I kinda' missed the feeling of winning and sCARE losing. I forgot how much fun it can be!!!

Good catch Ernie.

I especially like
The Court does not reach this analysis, however, since the Court has found the Act preempts the December 20, 2006, and the July 24, 2002, BOA decisions. Because the Court has found preemption of those decisions, the Court finds CARE’s Rule 106 (a)(4) claim is also moot as it has been preempted.

(S)CARE's arguments don't have any impact at this point because ALL of their arguments have been pre-empted by the new law. Apparently the judge didn't get to see that picture of the deer on the mountain.

Maybe (S)CARE can raise some money and appeal this to the Supreme Court. Oh, wait, they already admitted they can't raise that much money. Game, Set, Another Match! Time for Deb to start posting that resume on Monster. (Edit Added: Hey Deb, sounds like Barry Bonds could use a good lawyer practiced in dealing with lost causes......maybe it wasn't the steriods, it was radiation from a local TV station that caused his massive growth)

I was under the impression that KRMA-DT is back on the Morrison ice bridge, regardless of complaints about reception.


They've been back on Morrison for well over a month now.

I don't remember the exact date, but sometime after the first episode of The War was broadcast KRMA-DT went bye-bye for me.

In case you ever want to know:
KPXC, Denver, CO. Paxson Denver
License, Inc. (‘‘Paxson’’), licensee of
station KPXC-TV, channel 59, and
permittee of KPXC-DT, channel 43,
Denver, CO, received channel 43 for its
TCD in the proposed DTV Table. In its
FCC Form 381, Paxson certified to
replication facilities, which are reflected
in the proposed Appendix B parameters
for KPXC-DT. In its comments, Paxson
seeks a change in KPXC’s certified
facilities to conform to those it recently
requested in a January 2007
construction permit application,
including a site change. Paxson states
that the would-be tower owner at the
original KPXC-DT site received initial
local zoning board approval from the
Board of Commissioners of Jefferson
County in 2003, which was affirmed by
the Jefferson County District Court. In
2006, however, the decision was
overturned by the Colorado Appeals
Court which remanded the case to the
Board of Commissioners. The Board of
Commissioners subsequently sought
certiorari from the Colorado Supreme
Court, which has yet to make a decision.
Paxson states it ‘‘has no expectation that
it could construct the station on Mt.
Morrison before the statutory
termination of analog service’’ and it
would thus be ‘‘more reasonable for the
allotment to correspond to the
parameters proposed in the new CP
application.’’
67. Paxson’s request would result in
a significant shift in the area served by
KPXC, such that the station’s digital
signal would not reach a large area that
is currently served by this station, and
would violate the filing freeze. We are
concerned, however, about the zoning
issue faced by this station and by
Paxson’s stated expectation that it will
not be able to construct its full DTV
facility before the transition deadline on
February 17, 2009. While we do not
believe that shifting Paxson’s coverage
as proposed is the proper resolution,
and therefore deny Paxson’s request for
a waiver of the freeze, we hereby invite
Paxson to propose another site that
would result in a less dramatic change
to its current service area and
population. We will consider such a
request in the application process
following adoption of the Report and
Order in the Third DTV Periodic Review
proceeding. We also urge Paxson to
keep us informed concerning progress
and events in the zoning case in
Colorado.

'We are concerned, however, about the zoning issue faced by this station and by Paxson’s stated expectation that it will not be able to construct its full DTV facility before the transition deadline on February 17, 2009. While we do not believe that shifting Paxson’s coverage as proposed is the proper resolution, and therefore deny Paxson’s request for a waiver of the freeze, we hereby invite Paxson to propose another site that would result in a less dramatic change to its current service area and population.'

So do they have a plan? They are in extreme danger of being required to relinquish their broadcast license.

--- CHAS

I believe KPXC intended to co-locate its DT transmitter with some FM stations on Mt. Morrison and was adversely affected by the same May 2006 Court of Appeals decision that affected KRMA.

As we know, KRMA took some interim actions and finally settled on the ice bridge on Mt. Morrison resulting in a permanently licensed facility. We all don't agree their actions turned out for the best, but at least they took actions and made the effort.

What did KPXC do? Well, for starters, they have never constructed a temporary DT facility under their STA, which was granted November 29, 2004 - almost 3 years ago. I don't believe they ever intended to construct an STA facility. They went thru the motions to make it look like they were making an effort at the DTV transition. Did they take actions similar to KRMA after the Court of Appeals decision? Not in my opinion. Over seven months after that court decision, they finally filed an application with the FCC - January 2007 - requesting a waiver of the service freeze to significantly change their coverage area, knowing the FCC wasn't going to expedite this request in time to construct a permanent DT facility by the analog cutoff date.

KPXC apparently can't flashcut due to zoning requirements, doesn't have an STA facility that it can modify in any manner to meet the analog cutoff, and doesn't have approval for its new proposed facility. I'd say we can all say goodbye to KPXC on 2-17-09.

There's a similar situation involving KUPN in Sterling. They want to move their city of coverage for DT to Ft. Morgan so that the signal will reach the metro Denver area while still serving Sterling. They do not have an STA and do not have FCC approval to move to Ft. Morgan. So they will probably not have a DT facility up and running at analog cutoff. In addition, their DT channel is 23, and there is an analog LP religious channel 23 in Aurora which does not have to shut off on 2-17-09 which would interfere with their DT signal if they moved to Ft. Morgan. Looks like they won't be around on 2-17-09 either.

Of course, we still have KCEC 50, DT51, which seems to be off the air more than they are on. We have KRMT 41, DT40, which remaps to channel 40-16, which many receivers cannot "see". And we have KDEV 39, DT11, which has no PSIP information whatsoever - no remapping, no program info, etc. and can only be tuned if your receiver has the ability to tune by actual DT channel.

Despite sCARE, and even without sCARE, Denver remains at the top of the heap in screwed up DTV for a large metro area.

Lots of experts on this forum and discussions about future of HD broadcast in Denver area.

I just purchased HDTV and using antenna to receive digital channels. I get 2.1, 7.1, 9.1, 31.1 digital channels that are the equivalent for cw-2, abs, nbc, fox.

I've been unsuccessful in getting CBS (4.1 according to antennaweb.org). I'm in East Denver by 26th and Quebec and all these stations should be broadcasting out of downtown. Anyone have advise on how I can get KCNC on a digitial signal?

Thanks!

Welcome ph4acid,

You're almost correct. 4, 6, 7, 9, 20 broadcast low-power HD from atop Republic Plaza downtown. (The tallest Silver building) 2 & 31 originate from Lookout Mountain west of Denver.

Now, you should be able to get 4 if you get 7 & 9. It could be something as simple as re-trying an auto-tune on your receiver to get them. Or, try adding them seperately if your receiver allows that. Then, it might be a freak of location. Like there is something blocking their tiny antenna on Republic from your antenna.

Lastly, receiving low-power HD is a game of inches, try moving your antenna a couple of feet in any direction. (Not kidding, 6 inches sometimes is all it takes)

You're almost correct. 4, 6, 7, 9, 20 broadcast low-power HD from atop Republic Plaza downtown. (The tallest Silver building) 2 & 31 originate from Lookout Mountain west of Denver.

Actually, channel 6 moved to Mt. Morrison a couple months ago. Sometimes channel 4 is a little harder to tune than the Republic Plaza stations because it has a higher digital frequency than the others. Still, if you are getting good reception on 7.1 and 9.1 then a bit of fiddling should bring in 4.1 also.

Actually, channel 6 moved to Mt. Morrison a couple months ago.Ooops, my bad. Yeah, they were bouncing back and forth between the two for a while.

Just flipped on the recording of How I Met Your Mother from CBS last night, or technically this morning since KCNC slipped them to after midnight to show the Bronco game. Did anyone ever figure out why it is that KCNC can record the shows for playback at Mountain Time every Monday, but when they have to slip the show an extra 5 hours the recordings magically revert to SD. Maybe we should all pitch in and get them a second HD recorder so they can play back in HD. I guess they only have one recorder and it must have only one input which was recording the Bronco game.
:rolleyes:

Well, it seems that sometime in the last few days, KCNC has lowered their strength even more. Was was running about 52% and was border line for me to receive the signal, has now dropped to 42% as of sometime yesterday morning when my wifes Y&R failed to record and Cane failed to record last night as well. I sent a e-mail to KCNC asking them what their status is. I'll let you know what I find out.

In the mean time, it looks like I'm going to need a really good amplifier. Anyone know of a amplifier that will just let me tune certain frequencies. KWGN, KRMA, and KDVR just fine and I don't want to over amplify those frequencies.

Well, it seems that sometime in the last few days, KCNC has lowered their strength even more. Was was running about 52% and was border line for me to receive the signal, has now dropped to 42% as of sometime yesterday morning when my wifes Y&R failed to record and Cane failed to record last night as well. I sent a e-mail to KCNC asking them what their status is. I'll let you know what I find out.

In the mean time, it looks like I'm going to need a really good amplifier. Anyone know of a amplifier that will just let me tune certain frequencies. KWGN, KRMA, and KDVR just fine and I don't want to over amplify those frequencies.

I don't know of any readily available, consumer grade, pre-amps that would allow you to just amplify channel 35. However, if you are just below the receiving range for KCNC and you are receiving the other digital channels with a weak signal, then I would suggest one of the ChannelMaster 8 to 10 db pre-amps. Anything more will probably over-amplify the other channels.

I bought a little 0-10 db amplifier from Radio Shack and it worked like a charm. Brought the signal up high enough were MythTV is picking it up fine now. Now the WAF is going to go up. Thanks again.

Anyone else notice a reduced signal strength on KRMA-DT 6-1 that started either late on Tuesday 11/20/07 or very early on Wednesday 11/21/07.

My signal has always been weak, but I could usually watch it. I think my problem coincides with the snow storm. FYI:My antenna is in the attic, so I don't think it is at my end.

Anyone else notice a reduced signal strength on KRMA-DT 6-1 that started either late on Tuesday 11/20/07 or very early on Wednesday 11/21/07.

My signal has always been weak, but I could usually watch it. I think my problem coincides with the snow storm. FYI:My antenna is in the attic, so I don't think it is at my end.

Yes, I noticed problems yesterday afternoon. It repeatedly had more pixelization/macro blocking. Too bad the show was interesting.

Anyone else notice a reduced signal strength on KRMA-DT 6-1 that started either late on Tuesday 11/20/07 or very early on Wednesday 11/21/07.

My signal has always been weak, but I could usually watch it. I think my problem coincides with the snow storm. FYI:My antenna is in the attic, so I don't think it is at my end.

Things came back to normal for me between 8AM and 1PM today. Coincides with the sun coming out and it warming up.

Perhpas the ice on the ice bridge melted.:D

FYI:

I just got my new D* receiver - model number H21-200 mfg date 7/25/07. Noteworthy about this box is the fact that it does not have an OTA input! Of course, the blank stare from the D* installer was to be expected when I asked about it.

This receiver is only for a 23" LCD and my ReplayTV, so I'm not going to get too worked up about it.

Beware the D*

FYI:

I just got my new D* receiver - model number H21-200 mfg date 7/25/07. Noteworthy about this box is the fact that it does not have an OTA input! Of course, the blank stare from the D* installer was to be expected when I asked about it.

This receiver is only for a 23" LCD and my ReplayTV, so I'm not going to get too worked up about it.

Beware the D*

Maybe because now most TVs have an OTA tuner built into it, it was viewed as redundant and therefore unnecessary expense? Clearly having it all integrated offers a good deal of convenience.

FYI:

I just got my new D* receiver - model number H21-200 mfg date 7/25/07. Noteworthy about this box is the fact that it does not have an OTA input! Of course, the blank stare from the D* installer was to be expected when I asked about it.

This receiver is only for a 23" LCD and my ReplayTV, so I'm not going to get too worked up about it.

Beware the D*

Same here, I got a HR21-700 yesterday with no OTA. I also have a HR20-700 that does have OTA.

I guess we will see if we miss the sub-channels!

The December 20, 2006, BOA decision affirmed the Carl and Brindle decisions that
denied KWGN’s permit requests based on the finding that the towers on Lookout
Mountain were a legal non-conforming use. Two days after the December 20, 2006,
BOA decision issued, Congress passed Public Law No. 109-466, which reads as follows:

Notwithstanding any applicable State or local land use or condemnation
laws or regulations, and subject to all applicable Federal laws and
regulations, any person that holds an approved Federal Communications
Commission permit to construct or install either a digital television
broadcast station antenna or tower, or both, located on Lookout Mountain
in Jefferson County in the State of Colorado, may, at such location,
construct, install, use, modify, replace, repair, or consolidate such antenna
or tower, or both, and all accompanying facilities and services associated
with such digital television broadcasts, if such antenna or tower is of the
same height or lower than the tallest existing analog broadcast antenna or
tower at such location.

Public Law No. 109-466.
The Court first looks to the plain wording of Public Law No. 109-466 (the “Act”) to
define the scope of preemption, as the Act itself contains the best evidence of Congress’
preemptive intent. CSX, 507 U.S. at 664. In this case, however, the Act is silent as to the
definitions intended by Congress of the terms “land use, condemnation laws or
regulations.” The Court cannot rely solely on the Act to assess the extent of preemption
intended under the Act without precise definition of relevant and material terms included
in the Act. Furthermore, because of the circumstances under which the Act was passed,
there is no legislative history to guide the Court in ascertaining the intent of Congress.
Thus, the only evidence of the intent of Congress in considering and passing the Act into
law is the language of the Act itself.
The Court clearly finds that the Act was passed as a direct response to the
longstanding dispute over the use of the towers on Lookout Mountain. The language of
the Act is specifically directed at the towers on Lookout Mountain, and it specifically
preempts the County from using land use regulations to interfere with the transition from
analog to digital broadcasting. Moreover, the County concedes that its “previous position
6
that zoning restrictions prevented KWGN from placing digital broadcasting facilities on
its tall tower has been preempted.” (County’s Supplemental Brief pg 7). This conclusion
is in accord with a statement of the Federal Communication Commission (“FCC”)
released on May 18, 2007. The FCC’s statement indicted that the Act clarified the land
use issues on Lookout Mountain, and it stated, “…stations may now proceed to complete
construction of their DTV facilities expeditiously.” (KWGN’s Opening Brief p. 13).


This is what I've been saying all along, the local courts can't even rule on these matters now that it is federal law. It doesn't even make a difference what the law says or what the interpretation is, it's federal now. Come on KRMA get your permit and start building on Lookout. Do I have to hold their hand, file the permit and build the transmitter myself? :mad:

Have you sent a copy of this to KWGN ?
Pehaps you should. Once they have certain knowledge that they are not prevented by law form moving their transmitter and antenns to LM...and they decide not to, I suppose we have to assume that they have other (they think) good reasons for not doing so.

I have to believe that they are completely aware of the legal ruling/decision, Right ???

Phil

FYI:

I just got my new D* receiver - model number H21-200 mfg date 7/25/07. Noteworthy about this box is the fact that it does not have an OTA input! Of course, the blank stare from the D* installer was to be expected when I asked about it.

This receiver is only for a 23" LCD and my ReplayTV, so I'm not going to get too worked up about it.

Beware the D*

If all the new HD receivers from D* lack an ATSC tuner, that could be the deal breaker for me. I was leaning strongly toward jumping to D* from E* since they will be cutting off HDTV service to my Dish 811 receiver soon. I guess the satellite and cable companies don't want to enable or even acknowledge that there is a free alternative to their Pay HDTV services.

Have you sent a copy of this to KWGN ?
Pehaps you should. Once they have certain knowledge that they are not prevented by law form moving their transmitter and antenns to LM...and they decide not to, I suppose we have to assume that they have other (they think) good reasons for not doing so.

I have to believe that they are completely aware of the legal ruling/decision, Right ???

Phil

KWGN is and has always been (since they started) broadcasting their digital signal from Lookout Mountain, and while they are not at full power they are the highest power DT broadcast in the Denver market (but still only 45% of licensed power). The litigation was over whether they could broadcast from their "tall" tower rather than the current location on the "short" backup tower. They need to be on the tall power to broadcast at the full 1 MW. (s)CARE had pretty successfully constrained them until now.

There is no need to forward anything to KWGN; they are well aware of this as they were the litigants in this action, and their attorneys would keep them apprised of the rulings in their case.

Hi Everyone,

I am new to the whole OTA thing. I would like to install an antenna on the roof of my townhome, but I don't know what I should get. My townhome HOA restricts the size of any exterior antenna to 36" diameter. I live in Centennial (Universty and County Line).

I called a couple of local antena installers today, and I got some mixed info. One guy told me that he has had best luck with the Winegard Square Shooter. Another installer told me that most stations are broadcasting in UHF today, but he believes that will change down the line. (The Square Shooter is UHF only.) He said for me to be future proof, I should have an antenna that can handle VHF as well. From what I gather, VHF antennas are generally bigger than 36". Another guy told me that amplified antennas are not really necessary in the denver area.

According to antennaweb, my house is primarily in the yellow zone.

Can anyone provide recommendations on an antenna that will adhere to the requirements of my HOA, as well as be viable for today and tommrrow? Also, can anyone recommend installers? What should a typical install cost? The quotes I am getting are in the $400 range. I'm not sure if this info can be posted, so a PM is fine too...

Please help. I have read much of this thread, and it seems to be more focused more on legal issues which I don't understand. (yet...)

Hi Everyone,

I am new to the whole OTA thing. I would like to install an antenna on the roof of my townhome, but I don't know what I should get. My townhome HOA restricts the size of any exterior antenna to 36" diameter. I live in Centennial (Universty and County Line).

By FCC regulations, your HOA cannot regulate the size antenna you need to receive local over-the-air television, as long as it is not on a mast over 12' in height, unless you live in a historic district. The 36" diameter limit is for satellite dishes.

See the FCC fact sheet here (http://www.fcc.gov/mb/facts/otard.html).

Your antenna CAN be on a mast over 12' in height. The only qualification if it is higher than 12' is that it must meet any building code requirements (guy wires, etc.). The HOA also cannot restrict the number of antennas you install. You may want to get one for UHF only now and add on a VHF antenna later when KMGH, KUSA, and KDBI go back to VHF - channels 7, 9, 13 - after analog cutoff.

Hi Everyone,

I am new to the whole OTA thing. I would like to install an antenna on the roof of my townhome, but I don't know what I should get. My townhome HOA restricts the size of any exterior antenna to 36" diameter. I live in Centennial (Universty and County Line).

I called a couple of local antena installers today, and I got some mixed info. One guy told me that he has had best luck with the Winegard Square Shooter. Another installer told me that most stations are broadcasting in UHF today, but he believes that will change down the line. (The Square Shooter is UHF only.) He said for me to be future proof, I should have an antenna that can handle VHF as well. From what I gather, VHF antennas are generally bigger than 36". Another guy told me that amplified antennas are not really necessary in the denver area.

According to antennaweb, my house is primarily in the yellow zone.

Can anyone provide recommendations on an antenna that will adhere to the requirements of my HOA, as well as be viable for today and tommrrow? Also, can anyone recommend installers? What should a typical install cost? The quotes I am getting are in the $400 range. I'm not sure if this info can be posted, so a PM is fine too...

Please help. I have read much of this thread, and it seems to be more focused more on legal issues which I don't understand. (yet...)

OTA antenna - unlimited in size, no restrictions as long as it is at or below 12 feet above your roofline.

DBS dish - max size of 1 meter (39.39 inches), no restriction as to the number of dishes to receive your desired programming,

One caveat on both of these - these antennas must be in exclusive use areas. I would think that the roof of your townhome should qualify.

Check the link in my sig for more details.

Can anyone provide recommendations on an antenna that will adhere to the requirements of my HOA, as well as be viable for today and tommrrow? Also, can anyone recommend installers? What should a typical install cost? The quotes I am getting are in the $400 range. I'm not sure if this info can be posted, so a PM is fine too...

Please help. I have read much of this thread, and it seems to be more focused more on legal issues which I don't understand. (yet...)
+1 on the HOA being irrelevant in this case.

I used Alpine Electronics for my install and it was under $300 (including the antenna). (303) 366-5992.

Keep in mind that once the tower is complete (late Spring of next year) you'll likely only need a pair of rabbit ears inside to pick up the signals, so I wouldn't worry about VHF capability on the roof. Like others have said, if you need it, you can always add it later.

They are building the full power transmitters and will be done soon. Then you might only need rabbit ears.

Wow! What a great community! I appreciate the fast and detailed response. Any speculation on when the full power transmitters will be completed?

Wow! What a great community! I appreciate the fast and detailed response. Any speculation on when the full power transmitters will be completed?Any speculation? Of course there is! Ernie Santella (santellavision) is maintaining the pool, click the link under his signature.

http://www.santellaproductions.com/dtv/Onairdate.htm

In reality, we haven't seen any work on the actual towers yet. Some of the early '08 dates (like mine) might be a bit optimistic. I think LCG said we should see some more construction photos on hdtvcolorado.com soon (but nothing new yet).

(dang, you're fast, gakon!)

They (Lake Cedar Group - the group formed by KCNC, KRMA [no longer part of LCG], KMGH, KUSA, and KTVD) are saying spring 2008. Link: http://www.hdtvcolorado.com/

Wow! What a great community! I appreciate the fast and detailed response. Any speculation on when the full power transmitters will be completed?

In general, the main new LCG tower should be online somewhere in the middle of 2008, or earlier or later.....:D

Construction is well underway for the control room/transmitter building already, and the tower will likely be the last thing up. Much of the construction schedule will depend upon the weather, so that adds a lot to the uncertainty of the completion dates.

BTW, welcome to the group.

Wow! What a great community! I appreciate the fast and detailed response. Any speculation on when the full power transmitters will be completed?

The other uncertainty is exactly what power level the new tower transmitters will be at when construction is completed. They may still be kept at relatively low power until the February 2009 transition date. The transition date is certain, fixed by federal law, and all DTV will go full power, if it is physically capable of doing so, on that date.

I think I am going to follow the advice to hold off on an external antenna. I have a shed attached to my townhome. Inside the shed is junction point for my pre-wired coax. I disconnected the coax line from comcast and connected amplified rabbit-ears. ($20) I am receiving all local channels clearly, with the weakest signals coming from 4-1 and 9-1. If this becomes too probablimatic, I may go with the external antenna. But it sounds like reception will only get better for me over time...

Thanks to everyone for the warm welcome...

But it sounds like reception will only get better for me over time...Yep. Once the new tower is up I've promised my wife that I'll take down the external antenna which I "temporarily" mounted on our deck - four years ago. I expect that we will see DTV signals from the new tower next summer for channels 4 and 20, but that 7 and 9 will stay downtown until February 2009.

BTW, has anyone else been having problems with KRMA-DT tonight?

Yep. Once the new tower is up I've promised my wife that I'll take down the external antenna which I "temporarily" mounted on our deck - four years ago. I expect that we will see DTV signals from the new tower next summer for channels 4 and 20, but that 7 and 9 will stay downtown until February 2009.

BTW, has anyone else been having problems with KRMA-DT tonight?

I have been having intermittent problems with KRMA-DT, 6-1, since last Tuesday. There seems to be a correlation with temperature. It first got quite cold and snowy last Tuesday morning, and the signal strength was too low for me to get it. When it got sunny and warmer on Wednesday, it came in fine. Since then, I have gotten the signal during the day, once it has warmed up, and lose it again at night when it gets cold. I am not claiming cause and effect, just noting the correlation.
I don't think anything is changing at my end. My antenna is in the attic, along with my Channel Master 7777 pre-amp. I don't think the amp is being effected since I have been getting KBDI-DT well for the last couple of weeks, and that has always been difficult for me, here in Louisville.

Just for the record: KRMA-DT was good at 2PM today(11/27/07) and showing occasional pixelation at 8:30PM.

I expect that we will see DTV signals from the new tower next summer for channels 4 and 20, but that 7 and 9 will stay downtown until February 2009.
I don't think they'd be allowed to - they were all supposed to be full power with "similar" coverage areas years ago. If they don't go full power as soon as the tower is capable of supporting it, I imagine the FCC would start assessing fines.

I guess I'm completely wrong, but when I bought my original Winegard HD9095P UHF only antenna, I though that the FCC was going to reclaim the entire VHF spectrum and everything was going UHF. Based on what I'm reading now, I guess that's not that case and some of the channels that are broadcasting UHF will be moving back to VHF. Is this correct? I wonder if Winegard makes and upgrade to my antenna to add VHF to it.

I guess I'm completely wrong, but when I bought my original Winegard HD9095P UHF only antenna, I though that the FCC was going to reclaim the entire VHF spectrum and everything was going UHF. Based on what I'm reading now, I guess that's not that case and some of the channels that are broadcasting UHF will be moving back to VHF. Is this correct? I wonder if Winegard makes and upgrade to my antenna to add VHF to it.I believe the spectrum to be reclaimed is channels 52-69.

VHF is really two different bands - low VHF (2 through 6) and high VHF (7 through 13). Low VHF has been problematic for digital TV, so much so that few stations anywhere plan to use it after the analog shutoff. KWGN and KCNC both plan to abandon low VHF and keep their UHF frequency assignments for DTV. However, many stations with high VHF channel allocations (such as KMGH and KUSA in our area) plan to keep them after the analog shutoff because they can cover the same area with a lower power bill than UHF.

Many UHF antennas still have some amount of gain in the high VHF band. You might want to hook your Winegard antenna up to an analog TV and see how strong a signal it is getting on 7 and 9 today. No guarantees, but that might be a rough indication of whether you'll need a "VHF upgrade" for it.

My source at KUSA/KTVD just provided me some beautiful pictures from the last 36 hours. LCG's tower has gone vertical! (barely :))

Enjoy!

That is one of the most beautiful things I've ever seen :) It's been a LOOOOONG time coming. Thanks UHF!

My source at KUSA/KTVD just provided me some beautiful pictures from the last 36 hours. LCG's tower has gone vertical! (barely :))

Enjoy!30 feet down, 700 to go!

Is KRMA-DT just upconverting the analog channel now, all the time?

I haven't notice anyone on the OTA forum mention this, but that's what I'm getting via Comcast now on what was previously the KRMA-DT channel.

Mark

My parents live in Longmont (on a hill) and they can pick up 2-1 on their new TV with rabbit ears but no other digital channels.

If I hook the new TV to their existing roof antenna do you think they will have any luck with any of the other stations, or will they have to wait for the Lookout Mtn. tower to be operational to pick up any more stations?

I'm curious since I'll have to do a lot of thru-the-wall cabling to get the roof antenna cable to the new TV (it's in a different room), and I don't want to waste my time if there is no chance of picking up any more stations.

My parents live in Longmont (on a hill) and they can pick up 2-1 on their new TV with rabbit ears but no other digital channels.

If I hook the new TV to their existing roof antenna do you think they will have any luck with any of the other stations, or will they have to wait for the Lookout Mtn. tower to be operational to pick up any more stations?

I'm curious since I'll have to do a lot of thru-the-wall cabling to get the roof antenna cable to the new TV (it's in a different room), and I don't want to waste my time if there is no chance of picking up any more stations.Lots of people are getting DTV from Longmont.

If this is an old antenna, it probably points to Lookout Mountain already. My guess is that you'll get 2-1, 31-1, 12-1 and maybe 6-1 with it. But before doing a lot of re-wiring, I'd be inclined to run a long coax cable directly from the roof to the TV (through an open window, even) and see what channels you get; also pay attention to how good a picture you get on 7-0 and 9-0, since they'll be using the same frequencies after the move.

To get the 4-1, 7-1, 9-1 and 20-1 you would need to re-aim the antenna for downtown - which might make you lose 6-1 and 12-1, plus you'll have to re-aim again when the stations move; at this point, I would just wait on that.

My source at KUSA/KTVD just provided me some beautiful pictures from the last 36 hours. LCG's tower has gone vertical! (barely :))

Enjoy!

I can almost smell the barbeque right now! Maybe my pick in the pool has some hope. Thanks, and keep them coming.

Upon further examination, that struture looks awfully narrow; 8 - 10' max. Does anyone know if that's the entire width of the tower? I guess I've never looked at other towers that closely to see what's "normal".

Is KRMA-DT just upconverting the analog channel now, all the time?That's what I saw Monday night - pledge drive, no less. But last night I thought they had the PBS-HD feed again.

Sounds to me like KRMA is just doing this temporarily so they can show the pledge drive on the DT channel. However, for me the signal in Louisville pretty disappeared sometime last week, so they won't be getting anything from me.

It used to be a great signal when they broadcast from RP. Since they moved to Morrison it has been low but watchable (with my indoor antenna aimed just right), until last week when the signal pretty much disappeared.

Oxothuk-

Thanks for the info, I'll give the long coax a try and see how it goes!

Yep. Once the new tower is up I've promised my

BTW, has anyone else been having problems with KRMA-DT tonight?

Yeah, tonight and every night. :D

My parents live in Longmont (on a hill) and they can pick up 2-1 on their new TV with rabbit ears but no other digital channels.

If I hook the new TV to their existing roof antenna do you think they will have any luck with any of the other stations, or will they have to wait for the Lookout Mtn. tower to be operational to pick up any more stations?

I'm curious since I'll have to do a lot of thru-the-wall cabling to get the roof antenna cable to the new TV (it's in a different room), and I don't want to waste my time if there is no chance of picking up any more stations.

I'm in Longmont and get everything except KRMA. I use to get them fine, until they had the brilliant idea to move to Morrison, when they could have done anything they wanted to on Lookout.

Yeah, tonight and every night. :D



I'm in Longmont and get everything except KRMA. I use to get them fine, until they had the brilliant idea to move to Morrison, when they could have done anything they wanted to on Lookout.

Same thing here in NE Longmont.

December 2007 - CARE Wins Mt. Morrison Suit
CARE v. BCC and BCDC



The Supreme Court denied the petition for certiorari on the Mt. Morrison case on 11/26/07. The Court of Appeals decision now represents the law of Colorado on Planned Unit Development rezonings including broadcast tower rezonings. (except for where the Act of Congress applies on Lookout Mountain).

In line with the Colorado Court of Appeals decision, the Jeffco Board of County Commissioners will now be required to hold new hearings on this rezoning that follow the directions of the Court of Appeals. The public must be given a full opportunity to be heard and the County Commissioners must follow the guidelines of the Central Mountains Community Plan and the Telecommunications Land Use Plan. The County Commissioners cannot allow the rezoning if an alternative site exists.

My source at KUSA/KTVD just provided me some beautiful pictures from the last 36 hours. LCG's tower has gone vertical! (barely :))

Enjoy!

YEEEEEEEEEEEEHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAW! :) :D :)

December 2007 - CARE Wins Mt. Morrison Suit
CARE v. BCC and BCDC



The Supreme Court denied the petition for certiorari on the Mt. Morrison case on 11/26/07. The Court of Appeals decision now represents the law of Colorado on Planned Unit Development rezonings including broadcast tower rezonings. (except for where the Act of Congress applies on Lookout Mountain).

In line with the Colorado Court of Appeals decision, the Jeffco Board of County Commissioners will now be required to hold new hearings on this rezoning that follow the directions of the Court of Appeals. The public must be given a full opportunity to be heard and the County Commissioners must follow the guidelines of the Central Mountains Community Plan and the Telecommunications Land Use Plan. The County Commissioners cannot allow the rezoning if an alternative site exists.

This could be good, possible result=all digtal tramitters move to Lookout, the best location all along.

This could be good, possible result=all digtal tramitters move to Lookout, the best location all along.
That's fine for KRMA. But the other channels that live on Morrison now have no option. The federal law only covers stations that have analog on Lookout. I forget who all was included with KRMA's app, but there was a Catholic channel and another low power station IIRC. They're SOL now and probably the least financially able to spend more time in court fighting sCARE.

The County Commissioners cannot allow the rezoning if an alternative site exists.

I've never understood the circularity of this logic here. They argued against Lookout because there was Morrison. They argued against Morrison because there was Squaw, which meant there really wasn't Morrison. But transitive closure does not apply, and Squaw is not suitable for Lookout. This is largely academic due to the Federal preemeption, so a consolidation on Lookout may actually happen.

That's fine for KRMA. But the other channels that live on Morrison now have no option. The federal law only covers stations that have analog on Lookout. I forget who all was included with KRMA's app, but there was a Catholic channel and another low power station IIRC. They're SOL now and probably the least financially able to spend more time in court fighting sCARE.

No, not really. The law only requires you to have a permit for digital tv, it doesn't say anything about already broadcasting analog. All they have to do is file for a permit. Now, I understand that's not at easy as I make seem. There could be problems such as: difficulty getting permit, who's tower would they go on, money issues etc. etc., but if they were determined, they could do it. Why do you think Scare was so upset with Public Law No. 109-466? It gives anyone with such permit permission to build a digital tv transmitter on Lookout. I think the law is a little excessive, but it was the only way to deal with all the NIMBYS. Scare got what they deserved, and by doing so they opened the door for anyone to move to Lookout, kinda cool hunh? That means if I got a permit from the FCC tomorrow, I could build whatever I needed to for such a transmission, assuming I could work it out with whoever owns the land.

The real beauty of the law is that details don't really matter. Its clearly written to say you can do whatever you want to transmit digital tv from Lookout should you have a permit to do so. In this way, Scare, judge Jackson NIMBYS or anyone else can not fight it locally. The interpretation on what this means would have to be a federal one. You'd have to go thru at least two federal laws, 109-466 and the one that says there is a mandatory switch to digial in 2009. Trust me, no federal court would ever entertain an argument against these two laws.

KRMA could be at full power right now from Lookout on their old tower had they not messed around with Morrison once this law was already in effect.

My source at KUSA/KTVD just provided me some beautiful pictures from the last 36 hours. LCG's tower has gone vertical! (barely :))

Enjoy!

What a beautiful sight. I didn't expect that part of the construction to start until next spring. I sure hope they don't plan to be putting that up when the January winds start to blow. All we would need is for some kind of accident to get the (S)CARE folks all fired up again.

What a beautiful sight. I didn't expect that part of the construction to start until next spring. I sure hope they don't plan to be putting that up when the January winds start to blow. All we would need is for some kind of accident to get the (S)CARE folks all fired up again.

Yeah, that warmed my heart. After all this ridiculous fighting, that image just makes me happy! I'm doing my NIMBY NIMBY dance right now! Start getting ready to fire up the BBQ!!!!!!! Woooo Hooooooo!

No, not really. The law only requires you to have a permit for digital tv, it doesn't say anything about already broadcasting analog. All they have to do is file for a permit. Now, I understand that's not at easy as I make seem. There could be problems such as: difficulty getting permit, who's tower would they go on, money issues etc. etc. Why do you think Scare was so upset with Public Law No. 109-466? It gives anyone with such permit permission to build a digital tv transmitter on Lookout. I think the law is a little excessive, but it was the only way to deal with all the NIMBYS. That means if I got a permit from the FCC tomorrow, I could build whatever I needed to for such a transmission, assuming I could work it out with whoever owns the land.

The real beauty of the law is that details don't really matter. Its clearly written to say you can do whatever you want to transmit digital tv from Lookout should you have a permit to do so. In this way, Scare, judge Jackson NIMBYS or anyone else can not fight it locally. The interpretation on what this means would have to be a federal one. You'd have to go thru at least two federal laws, 109-466 and the one that says there is a mandatory switch to digial in 2009. Trust me, no federal court would ever entertain an argument against these two laws.

KRMA could be at full power right now from Lookout on their old tower had they not messed around with Morrison once this law was already in effect.
You're right - I misremembered this part of the law:
if such antenna or tower is of the same height or lower than
the tallest existing analog broadcast antenna or tower at such location.
as saying "or lower than their tallest", implying a need for them to already be on Lookout.

Thanks for the correction!

You're right - I misremembered this part of the law:

as saying "or lower than their tallest", implying a need for them to already be on Lookout.

Thanks for the correction!

Good point. When I first read the law I got a little nervous thinking that there always had to be an analog tower there for ever, for them to guage off of, for any future towers. However, if you read it closely, it just uses the current tallest analog tower as the measuring stick, ie if they were to rip down all analog towers any future digital tower would just have to be equal or lower to this benchmark.

Thanks god we don't have that NIMBY crap in Co Springs! We have been fully digital for over a year and have all of the antennas on Cheyenne Mountain. Kind of hard to say that they (the antennas) were not there first!

Seems to me a lot of newcomers probably moved from the left coast to be in these (Morrison/Lookout Mtn) areas, and they have the gall to say one tower that will replace 3 or 4 (or whatever it is) will make them ill. What a bunch of crapola. Move back home, nobody will miss you!

The same thing happens down here by the USAFA. People buy a house and then say the airplanes flying over are dangerous and may "kill children". I think the Academy has been there WAY before these people ever moved in and besides, the sound of Academy training airplanes flying is the sound of "freedom" to most people.

I'm so tempted to make a prediction date after seeing that picture. I said I would never do that...... Must not, hands stop typing, must not......jinx it!

In view of the Supreme Court ruling and the fact that they don't have to, I'm wondering what the chances are that some or all of the analog towers on Lookout won't be taken down. Perhaps KRMA, etc. would be interested in one of them, especially since they still own one.

And just a point of clarification - does the Lookout Law regarding tower height refer to the tallest existing tower or the tower with the highest HAAT? In other words, are there shorter towers higher up on Lookout that set the Law's measuring stick due to HAAT or is it just the tallest tower, period?

In view of the Supreme Court ruling and the fact that they don't have to, I'm wondering what the chances are that some or all of the analog towers on Lookout won't be taken down. Perhaps KRMA, etc. would be interested in one of them, especially since they still own one.

And just a point of clarification - does the Lookout Law regarding tower height refer to the tallest existing tower or the tower with the highest HAAT? In other words, are there shorter towers higher up on Lookout that set the Law's measuring stick due to HAAT or is it just the tallest tower, period?

Hmmm, that is a good question. Some research would probably be in order, unless someone already knows. I wouldn't be surprised seeing all that we've been thru. Again, one would have to challenge this in federal court if they thought the tower builder used the wrong "measuring stick," unlikely me thinks. The tower builder could just use the smaller of the two if it didn't effect coverage area, just to be safe.

In view of the Supreme Court ruling and the fact that they don't have to, I'm wondering what the chances are that some or all of the analog towers on Lookout won't be taken down. Perhaps KRMA, etc. would be interested in one of them, especially since they still own one.

And just a point of clarification - does the Lookout Law regarding tower height refer to the tallest existing tower or the tower with the highest HAAT? In other words, are there shorter towers higher up on Lookout that set the Law's measuring stick due to HAAT or is it just the tallest tower, period?

AFAIK the LCG agree to perform according to the plan that was 'approved' originally by the JCBCC, which included removal of the analog towers no longer in use. We have speculated here at times about whether they will still donate the remaining land for open space, but I would think the probability is pretty high the old towers will be removed in order to help maintain community relations, not to mention the fact that it would cost the stations money to continue the maintenance on the old towers to make sure they remain safe. The stations would still be liable if the let them stand and one fell down from old age etc.

AFAIK the LCG agree to perform according to the plan that was 'approved' originally by the JCBCC, which included removal of the analog towers no longer in use. We have speculated here at times about whether they will still donate the remaining land for open space, but I would think the probability is pretty high the old towers will be removed in order to help maintain community relations, not to mention the fact that it would cost the stations money to continue the maintenance on the old towers to make sure they remain safe. The stations would still be liable if the let them stand and one fell down from old age etc.


I had that thought in mind when I posted. What I should have said, but didn't, was maybe LCG could sell/lease the towers to others, such as the digitally homeless ION station, KPXC, or some of the LP's that do not have digital facilities yet.

I am not aware of any legal boundary of land as it pertains to what the Lookout Law refers to as Lookout Mtn, so I presume that it includes the whole mountain, all the way down to its base. It may not be practical, but someone could build a tower on the back/west side of it as long as the top of the tower reached over the peak. That would seem to meet the legal requirements of the Lookout Law, so even if LCG does abide by its previous commitments, I don't think than will stop others, if they want to, from constructing digital facilities anyplace else on "Lookout Mtn" not controlled by LCG.

December 2007 - CARE Wins Mt. Morrison Suit
CARE v. BCC and BCDC



The Supreme Court denied the petition for certiorari on the Mt. Morrison case on 11/26/07. The Court of Appeals decision now represents the law of Colorado on Planned Unit Development rezonings including broadcast tower rezonings. (except for where the Act of Congress applies on Lookout Mountain).

In line with the Colorado Court of Appeals decision, the Jeffco Board of County Commissioners will now be required to hold new hearings on this rezoning that follow the directions of the Court of Appeals. The public must be given a full opportunity to be heard and the County Commissioners must follow the guidelines of the Central Mountains Community Plan and the Telecommunications Land Use Plan. The County Commissioners cannot allow the rezoning if an alternative site exists.

So does this mean that KRMA has to remove their channel 7 style coat hanger from the ice bridge immediately?

Let's see if I understand the KRMA situation correctly. They:

a) Own a tall tower on Lookout currently in use for analog operations
b) They originally were part of LCG but pulled out
b) Did not apply for a FCC permit (CP) for digital operations from lookout
c) Applied for a CP for Morrision, it was approved so they moved digital there
d) Will not be able to use their Lookout tower after Feb 2009

The way I see it, that Lookout tower was grandfathered for TV broadcasting. If it's not used for that purpose, it has no legal foundation for being there and might have to be removed. Local zoning applies to it since KRMA is not protected by the Act.

What a revolting development that could be. Who's in charge at KRMA?

--- CHAS

Let's see if I understand the KRMA situation correctly. They:

a) Own a tall tower on Lookout currently in use for analog operations
b) They originally were part of LCG but pulled out
b) Did not apply for a FCC permit (CP) for digital operations from lookout
c) Applied for a CP for Morrision, it was approved so they moved digital there
d) Will not be able to use their Lookout tower after Feb 2009

The way I see it, that Lookout tower was grandfathered for TV broadcasting. If it's not used for that purpose, it has no legal foundation for being there and might have to be removed. Local zoning applies to it since KRMA is not protected by the Act.

What a revolting development that could be. Who's in charge at KRMA?

--- CHAS

Two items that I don't necessarily agree with:

1) The tower is not grandfathered, it is legal "non-conforming" and based on a state law passed some 3+ years ago, can not be forced to be removed. The law says, in brief, zoning can not change and then force a business to move. The tower (business) was legal when built and then the zoning changed afterwards.

2) It is also protected by the Fed ACT if anyone would use it for digital TV broadcast that has/or can get an FCC license for Lookout Mountain.

I still think KRMA needs to request a FCC permit to return to LOM ASAP.

# Matt
(Who is in the current shadow, not able to get KRMA in Erie, CO)

...

I still think KRMA needs to request a FCC permit to return to LOM ASAP.

# Matt
(Who is in the current shadow, not able to get KRMA in Erie, CO)

I couldn't agree more. That would be the safest approach to keeping the tower safe from legal mumbo jumbo. But I haven't heard that anyone with a DTV permit for Lookout has been interested in buying or leasing the tower. If they are not going to use it, what will KRMA do with it after the analog operation ceases?

--- CHAS

I couldn't agree more. That would be the safest approach to keeping the tower safe from legal mumbo jumbo. But I haven't heard that anyone with a DTV permit for Lookout has been interested in buying or leasing the tower. If they are not going to use it, what will KRMA do with it after the analog operation ceases?

Put it on eBay. :D

I remember hearing that once the tower starts to stand, it would be up in about 4 weeks. Then all the antennas, feed lines etc have to be installed.

Pixelated SD on KRMA-DT again tonight. Has the PBS-HD era come to an end?

Who's in charge at KRMA?

Somebody who is either sleeping or working for (s)CARE.

Pixelated SD on KRMA-DT again tonight. Has the PBS-HD era come to an end?
I've been waffleing on whether to go with D* new HD recorders. One of the issues is that they are now mostly using an HR21 which doesn't have an OTA input. That "used" to be important to me because there were several programs in HD on PBS that we recorded OTA. D* doesn't carry the local PBS HD broadcast on their spot beam.

So, if KRMA has given up on HD for whatever reason, there is no longer a compelling reason to need an OTA tuner in the recorder. Maybe I will be taking my big ol' YAGI down after 6 years of watching local HD OTA.

Edit: I decided to call them up and see what's up. They said they got a new HD transmission antenna installed and a piece (read: flange!) was missing forcing them to send out their "analog" signal only. They expect to receive the correct piece next week sometime and resume HD broadcasting.

..
So, if KRMA has given up on HD for whatever reason, there is no longer a compelling reason to need an OTA tuner in the recorder. Maybe I will be taking my big ol' YAGI down after 6 years of watching local HD OTA. .....


I wonder how many others across the nation will do the same when they can't receive what they want from their digital stations.

It's generally conceded that 85% of the viewers subscribe to cable and satellite. I'm thinking it will be more like 90% after Feb of 2009.

PBS has an inordinate number of OTA followers. They will be in big time trouble if they cannot reach that niche audience.

--- CHAS

I have been using a Winegard GS-2000A Sensar II amplified antenna for the last two years. I had the RG-6 from the antenna connected to a VAC power supply and then from the power supply to my TV. It worked great for the last two years.

Today I introduced a Leviton 47692-GSM 1x8 2GHz RF distribution module between the antenna VAC power supply and the TV. IT worked for about 2 hours and then the signal flickered and disappeared. I removed the Leviton module and reverted to my old setup, but no signal.

The Leviton 47692-GSM has an internal amplifier/attenuator with a -5dB to 15dB (don't know what that means) and bi-directional signaling. I was messing around with the attenuator on the Leviton to see if it made any difference on the analog channels. Since it is just a screw that only clicks when turned in one direction for too long, I was never sure what amplified setting it was on at anytime.

Could I have fried my antenna? I really don't understand all this dB gain stuff.

Anybody watching the Parade of Lights in HD on KUSA? The color looks really good at my house on my old set. The black level is better than some of the network shows, and the lighting is well done, too.

Anybody watching the Parade of Lights in HD on KUSA? The color looks really good at my house on my old set. The black level is better than some of the network shows, and the lighting is well done, too.

KUSA has been a leader in their HD broadcasts. Probably as good a HDNet.

KUSA has been a leader in their HD broadcasts. Probably as good a HDNet.
If I'm not mistaken, HDNet's production company (Colorado Studios) produced the Parade of Lights HD telecast the first year it was done (before 9News had their first HD camera). For all I know, they might still be responsible for the HD goodness - I'm not aware of any other live HD coverage (outside of the studio) 9News does. You'd think if they had the capability to do live HD broadcasts outside of the studio that all their other stuff would be HD as well (I'm thinking of 9News Light the Lights, for example, which was SD from the exact same location last week).

I have been using a Winegard GS-2000A Sensar II amplified antenna for the last two years. I had the RG-6 from the antenna connected to a VAC power supply and then from the power supply to my TV. It worked great for the last two years.

Today I introduced a Leviton 47692-GSM 1x8 2GHz RF distribution module between the antenna VAC power supply and the TV. IT worked for about 2 hours and then the signal flickered and disappeared. I removed the Leviton module and reverted to my old setup, but no signal.

The Leviton 47692-GSM has an internal amplifier/attenuator with a -5dB to 15dB (don't know what that means) and bi-directional signaling. I was messing around with the attenuator on the Leviton to see if it made any difference on the analog channels. Since it is just a screw that only clicks when turned in one direction for too long, I was never sure what amplified setting it was on at anytime.

Could I have fried my antenna? I really don't understand all this dB gain stuff.

You can't really fry your antenna, but I think you fried the amplifier that was integral with your antenna. If that amplifier isn't separable from the antenna for replacement purposes, then you will in fact need a new antenna.

Anybody watching the Parade of Lights in HD on KUSA? The color looks really good at my house on my old set. The black level is better than some of the network shows, and the lighting is well done, too.

I agree, the presentation was some of the best HD I've seen lately.



Wow, top of the page.

I've been waffleing on whether to go with D* new HD recorders. One of the issues is that they are now mostly using an HR21 which doesn't have an OTA input.

This is a hot topic over on dbstalk.com. I believe that the moderators (a couple of whom have an inside relationship with DirecTV) have indicated that DirecTV is aware of this concern, and has a solution coming out to enable OTA for people who want it and have an HR21. Speculation is that it will be some kind of USB device.

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=106995

You can't really fry your antenna, but I think you fried the amplifier that was integral with your antenna. If that amplifier isn't separable from the antenna for replacement purposes, then you will in fact need a new antenna.
The amplifier is an integral part of the antenna. Right now I am trying to determine which part actually needs replacement, the antenna or the power supply. What is the best way to do this without needing any expensive metering tools?

Can someone explain if an amplified bi-directional CATV splitter can actually damage the amplifier in the antenna or the power supply?

Never mind. I isolated the problem that I was having down to the pre-amp terminal on the power supply. The terminal no longer provided a snug binding to the 18 AWG copper of my RG6. My current stop gap solution until I replace the power supply is to use a small segment of 14AWG copper with an F extension adapter. It is working now.

Never mind. I isolated the problem that I was having down to the pre-amp terminal on the power supply. The terminal no longer provided a snug binding to the 18 AWG copper of my RG6. My current stop gap solution until I replace the power supply is to use a small segment of 14AWG copper with an F extension adapter. It is working now.

So it was a mechanical degradation of the coax connector on the power supply and nothing related to the electrical circuit for the pre-amp?

I've been waffleing on whether to go with D* new HD recorders. One of the issues is that they are now mostly using an HR21 which doesn't have an OTA input. That "used" to be important to me because there were several programs in HD on PBS that we recorded OTA. D* doesn't carry the local PBS HD broadcast on their spot beam.

So, if KRMA has given up on HD for whatever reason, there is no longer a compelling reason to need an OTA tuner in the recorder. Maybe I will be taking my big ol' YAGI down after 6 years of watching local HD OTA.

Edit: I decided to call them up and see what's up. They said they got a new HD transmission antenna installed and a piece (read: flange!) was missing forcing them to send out their "analog" signal only. They expect to receive the correct piece next week sometime and resume HD broadcasting.

Check with Circuit City to see which model of DirecTV HR20 series they have in stock. My HR20-100s have dual OTA tuners and will cost the same as the HR21 without. The HR21 is black, though....

Yes. The connector was not making contact with the copper coax and so the pre-amp was not receiving any power.

30 feet down, 700 to go!From my house in HR, it appears that they are making progress. Looks like about 100', but it IS pretty far away, even with binoculars. Still nothing new on hdtvcolorado.

Got a new Samsung 32" LCD (LNT3253H) for our master bedroom (2nd floor) last Saturday from Amazon. Brought the WOW factor back to HDTV for me.

Anyway, I don't have a ready split from my attic antennas that I can run to this DTV (a project for some cold winter days) so I hooked up a Winegard MS2000 (omni-directional antenna; flying saucer) to the new Samsung. I put the antenna on a plant ledge about 8' above 2nd floor level. This makes it about 5' lower than my attic antennas, but closer to the front of the house and with a seemingly better angle to RP. The Winegard is an amplified antenna (19.5 db on UHF).

Of course I get a strong signal for 2-1 and 31-1 from LOM. If I tinker with it, I get a strong signal for 7-1, 9-1,2, 12-1,2,3, and 14-1. I can tinker again to get 20-1, but I lose everything else when I do. 4-1 can be received intermitently, again with some tinkering. I don't get a whiff of 6-1 from wherever they are broadcasting today.

Since I get all the OTA channels, except 6-1, strong with my amplified attic antennas, I'm amazed that the drop-off in reception is so significant for a small change in location and amplification. I guess I'm definitely in a dead zone for DTV reception w/o the new tower on LOM.

Got a new Samsung 32" LCD (LNT3253H) for our master bedroom (2nd floor) last Saturday from Amazon. Brought the WOW factor back to HDTV for me.
.............................I guess I'm definitely in a dead zone for DTV reception w/o the new tower on LOM.

You might want to drop a 'thank you' note to Deb and the (S)CARE folks.
:rolleyes:

You might want to drop a 'thank you' note to Deb and the (S)CARE folks.
:rolleyes:

I think I am thankful for (S)Care in a way now. I always had trouble with anything that wasn't from Lookout. Now anybody can broadcast from LM if they get a permit, thanks to their antics. Just thinking about that makes me feel good. Talk about shooting yourself in the foot! I know they caused a lot of hardship and wait, though. Question is will KRMA or anyone else get off their duffs and actually do something about it?

I think I am thankful for (S)Care in a way now. I always had trouble with anything that wasn't from Lookout. Now anybody can broadcast from LM if they get a permit, thanks to their antics. Just thinking about that makes me feel good. Talk about shooting yourself in the foot! I know they caused a lot of hardship and wait, though. Question is will KRMA or anyone else get off their duffs and actually do something about it?

KRMA has stated the Morrison ice bridge will be their transmitter location for "at least two years" as they want to wait until the LCG tower is up and running before they "see if there's space on the tower" for them.

I know people have speculated that 6.1 HD is gone temporarily to broadcast the pledge drive, but it's been a couple weeks now of just the same SD as 6. Anybody know if and when HD is acutually coming back? Cuz' if it isn't, they can put their transmitter in Cleveland! :)

I know people have speculated that 6.1 HD is gone temporarily to broadcast the pledge drive, but it's been a couple weeks now of just the same SD as 6. Anybody know if and when HD is acutually coming back? Cuz' if it isn't, they can put their transmitter in Cleveland! :)

I don't know about when the HD will come back, but they certainly didn't win any support at my house last week. I recorded the Crossroads Festival show with Eric Clapton as shown in their guide, and when I went to watch it I found that they had started the show well before the guide said it started. To make it worse, the show was scheduled for 2 hours, and at the end of the first hour in the middle of the concert, the station switched over to the SD feed which was a cooking show. I ended up with a recording of 1 hours worth of cooking instead of a concert. Not the kind of stuff that makes me run over to the checkbook, thats for sure.

I don't know about when the HD will come back, but they certainly didn't win any support at my house last week. I recorded the Crossroads Festival show with Eric Clapton as shown in their guide, and when I went to watch it I found that they had started the show well before the guide said it started. To make it worse, the show was scheduled for 2 hours, and at the end of the first hour in the middle of the concert, the station switched over to the SD feed which was a cooking show. I ended up with a recording of 1 hours worth of cooking instead of a concert. Not the kind of stuff that makes me run over to the checkbook, thats for sure.

Hey John:

The same problem, with the same program, has now happened twice.

One suggestion: Netflix. I ordered the full concert, actually longer than the 2 hour broadcast. It will be here tomorrow, without the cooking segment.

Hey John:

The same problem, with the same program, has now happened twice.

One suggestion: Netflix. I ordered the full concert, actually longer than the 2 hour broadcast. It will be here tomorrow, without the cooking segment.

Thanks, I may have to rent it now too. I actually wanted to see a bit of the show to see if it was worth buying, but the recording I got was so short an chopped up that I didn't get a chance to see if it would be worth it.

At least it is good to know the SD Cooking show isn't on the DVD too! :rolleyes:

There's a new article in this week's Canyon Courier which may interest some folks. Unfortunately, I can't find it on their website. The headline reads "Appeal stalls Mount Morrison antenna". The first part of the article is as follows:

"The controversial case for a horizontal high-definition TV tower on Mount Morrison will go back to the county hearing process after the Colorado Supreme Court refused to accept the matter on appeal.

"In a victory for the opposing citizens' group, CARE, the high court decided Nov. 26 against hearing the appeal sought by the Jefferson County commisioners, Public Interest Communications and Bear Creek Development Corp.

"The court left standing a three-judge appeals court ruling that says the county approval process was flawed. In a May 4, 2006, ruling, the appeals court said the commissioners made a mistake by allowing significant changes to their proposal after public testimony was closed."

The article goes on to quote Tim Carl (county director of planning and development) defending the board's decision, followed by the predictible quotes by members of CARE ("Squaw Mountain ... would work just as well or better", "positive for neighbors concerned about tower radiation"). Deb Carney couldn't be reached for comment...

KRMA has stated the Morrison ice bridge will be their transmitter location for "at least two years" as they want to wait until the LCG tower is up and running before they "see if there's space on the tower" for them.

How ridiculous is that for a strategy? Hmm, let's wait for 2 years and see what happens. What if there is no room for you in two years? Why wait 2 years? You wasted all that energy building a low power transmitter(read channel 7 coat hanger) on an ice bridge, that was only temporary.

It amazes me that a tv channel looked at the options of building on an "ice bridge" or building on LM and chose the former. Remember the federal law passed way before they executed plan "ice bridge." Are they really (S)Cared to build on LM? If they are ruling out building on their analog tower, even temporarily, for any reason, there is no hope for them. They already proved they could slap a digital transmitter on an analog tower. Why didn't they just get a permit and slap it on their own tower? They could have left if like that forever if they wanted to, or until a better opportunity arose. Makes you wonder.

I took a drive up around Lookout Mountain at lunch today - got a couple pictures of the slightly taller new tower. Obviously I don't have the same access as LCG station employees, but from the road at the bottom of the driveway to Buffalo Bill's grave, you can see the progress:

http://photos.dr-mal.com/2007/pics/med_PC060006.JPG

http://photos.dr-mal.com/2007/pics/med_PC060007.JPG

I'm hoping to make a regular photo trip up there if work and weather permit.

I took Cedar Lake Road for a bit hoping to get better pictures, but the road is blocked off probably at the property line with construction permits needed to go past. :(

Thanks a lot for the pictures. I suspect to the (S)CARE folks it looks like a giant 'middle finger' being erected directly at them. Somehow I find that comforting.
:D

Actually I am surprised they are putting up the tower this time of year (Dec, Jan, and Feb) when the winds are usually at their worst.

I'm hoping to make a regular photo trip up there if work and weather permit.

I took Cedar Lake Road for a bit hoping to get better pictures, but the road is blocked off probably at the property line with construction permits needed to go past. :(

Thanks for the pics, looking forward to future shots!

Thanks for the pics d-mal. Is the tower the last piece of the puzzle or will the support buildings and their technolgy take more time after the tower is complete?

One suggestion: Netflix. Agree. See my sig line.

Thanks for the pics d-mal. Is the tower the last piece of the puzzle or will the support buildings and their technolgy take more time after the tower is complete?

Based on my observations and some earlier posts, the tower is not the last piece. The building is probably empty at this point, so all of the transmission equipment needs to be installed. The actual antennas (antennae?) need to be installed, and cabling run to them, then testing. That's a few months of work to go.

Thanks for the pics d-mal. Is the tower the last piece of the puzzle or will the support buildings and their technolgy take more time after the tower is complete?
You mean this building?
http://photos.dr-mal.com/2007/pics/med_PC060004.JPG

But like gakon said, there's still lots of stuff to do behind the scenes, I'd guess. I'm feeling pretty good about their spring estimate at this point.

That's cool that the tower sections are prepainted orange and white. (Is my assumption correct?) Anyone know how tall each orange and white section this? Then we could track how much further to go based on number of sections in the photo. Also, the guy in the photo on the tower several pages back gives an idea of the girth of the tower. Pretty sweet seeing it finally go up.

End of my bimonthly check in around here.

-Glen

Actually I am surprised they are putting up the tower this time of year (Dec, Jan, and Feb) when the winds are usually at their worst.

Interesting that the tower is a throwback to the old aircraft orange and white painted tower, instead of (what I thought was the new standard) steel tower with strobes and the red lights.

I would have gone thr strobe route, just to piss off the neighbors and had the strobes working at night, in bright mode, saying that there was a malfunction changing to the red lights at night :D

Thanks for the pictures dr_mal. I rarely get to that part of town so I appreciate the update.

You mean this building?
I'm feeling pretty good about their spring estimate at this point.

Really - they said it would be completed by this spring???.
How about turn on time - anyone know what that date will be?

Really - they said it would be completed by this spring???.
How about turn on time - anyone know what that date will be?

Really. From hdtvcolorado (http://www.hdtvcolorado.com) - not that the web site has been updated recently or anything.
Construction of the Lake Cedar Group tower on Lookout Mountain is proceeding with expected completion in spring 2008.
Know one knows what the first air date will be, but we all have our guesses - see Ernie's On-Air Pool (http://www.santellaproductions.com/dtv/Onairdate.htm)

I would have gone thr strobe route, just to piss off the neighbors and had the strobes working at night, in bright mode, saying that there was a malfunction changing to the red lights at night :D

Something like this would be good:

http://colorkinetics.com/showcase/installs/light/

Then it's not just a tower, but a work of art!

My guess is July 1 2008 for being on the air.....

Really - they said it would be completed by this spring???.
How about turn on time - anyone know what that date will be?

There is another question wrapped up in that.....will stations that are keeping their current freqeuncies(7,9) switch over at the first chance after the tower is ready? I don't think they would be allowed to or would want to use their temporary assignments in a different location from RP and its not possible to be broadcasting analog and digital on the same frequency is it? I don't see 7 and 9 broadcasting from the new tower until they are ready to turn off their analog signals, this will probably be well after the tower is done.

It's hard to say exactly what they mean by 'completion of construction', but I would think that would mean they are done with the building in the spring of 2008, but they still have to install and check out all of the equipment. I would expect that to take at least several months if not longer.

They just have to be ready by Febuary 17, 2009 ....

I'm new to this forum, have been hanging out more in the Comcast section (since reception of anything [even analog] is horrible right now in Boulder). Anybody know whether the digital signal from LM is expected to transmit further than the analog. More directly, is it expected that Boulder should receive the digital signals from LM, or are we destined to be stuck with cable or dish?

Thanks!

I'm new to this forum, have been hanging out more in the Comcast section (since reception of anything [even analog] is horrible right now in Boulder). Anybody know whether the digital signal from LM is expected to transmit further than the analog. More directly, is it expected that Boulder should receive the digital signals from LM, or are we destined to be stuck with cable or dish?


For the most part you're likely to be stuck, as Boulder is blocked from Lookout by the foothills, and you can't broadcast through rock. :(

The FCC mandate (and AFAIK, what the stations are aiming for with the new tower) is to have a digital coverage area similar to their analog coverage area. I don't recall off the top of my head if there's a certain percentage of the analog coverage they have to meet or if it's more vaguely worded.

I don't remember any talk of trying to expand their coverage with the digital tower. That said, digital signals require a lot less power to get the same coverage, so if they keep the same amount of power when they go live with the digital signals, it's certainly possible that their coverage area could increase.

Your best bet right now is to see what your reception of the analog channels from Lookout is like now. If you get even a snowy picture on 2, 4, 6, 7, 9, or 31, your odds of getting the digital channels is pretty darn good. Even better, try digital channels 2 (frequency 34) or 31 (frequency 32) since they're broadcasting from Lookout now.

I seem to remember reading a while back that some of the stations would potentially be broadcasting (digital) on VHF frequencies once Lookout comes on line. Does anyone have a link they can point me to that shows what frequencies the various stations will be using?

I seem to remember reading a while back that some of the stations would potentially be broadcasting (digital) on VHF frequencies once Lookout comes on line. Does anyone have a link they can point me to that shows what frequencies the various stations will be using?

Check out Ernie's page at
Ernie's Denver DTV page: Channel Information (http://www.santellaproductions.com/dtv/contactinfo.htm)

Ernie is one of our 'Uber' Members in the thread who has collected much of the information about the tower fights over the years.

That's cool that the tower sections are prepainted orange and white. (Is my assumption correct?) Anyone know how tall each orange and white section this? Then we could track how much further to go based on number of sections in the photo. Also, the guy in the photo on the tower several pages back gives an idea of the girth of the tower. Pretty sweet seeing it finally go up.

End of my bimonthly check in around here.

-Glen

Here is the FAA guidance on painting towers.

Color Band Characteristics. Bands for structures of any height should be:
1. Equal in width provided each band is not less than 1/2 feet (0.5m) or more than 100 feet (31m) wide.
2. Perpendicular to the vertical axis with the bands at the top and bottom ends colored orange.
3. An odd number of bands on the structure.
4. Approximately one-seventh the height if the structure is 700 feet (214m) AGL or less. For each additional 200 feet (61m) or fraction thereof, add one (1) additional orange and one (1) additional white band.
5. Equal and in proportion to the structure’s height AGL.

Structure Height to Bandwidth Ratio
Example: If a Structure is: Greater Than But Not MoreThan

10.5 feet to 700 feet-1/7 of height.

701 feet to 900 feet-1/9 of height.

901 feet to 1,100 feet-1/11 of height.

1,100 feet to 1,300 feet-1/13 of height.

The way I read this it looks like each band of color will be around 1/9th of the hight of the tower

http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAdvisoryCircular.nsf/0/B993DCDFC37FCDC486257251005C4E21?OpenDocument

I seem to remember reading a while back that some of the stations would potentially be broadcasting (digital) on VHF frequencies once Lookout comes on line. Does anyone have a link they can point me to that shows what frequencies the various stations will be using?

I don't have an authoritative reference handy, but IIRC channels 7 and 9 will retain their VHF frequencies after the analog cut-off. Nobody here believes they will cut-off their analog service prior to the mandated date in February, 2009, so they will remain on their UHF frequencies for their digital service until then. Many here believe they will not bother to relocate their temporary UHF facilities to lookout when the new tower is completed. It is unlikely that any analog TV service will be relocated to the new tower either, since by the time that the new tower is completed the analog cut-off date will just be months away.

Sorry, but one of you guys asked me to add your name to the 'On-air List' a couple of weeks ago. I've been a traveling fool. Minnesota then Hawaii then Calgary - I can't remember what my dog looks like! Anyway, I forgot and now I can't find the email? So, just post it here or email me and I will add it.

My guess is July 1 2008 for being on the air..... Here is one.

bretski,

Attached is the latest FCC file of the final channel allotments, including ERP. Since you are in Ft. Collins, don't forget about the Cheyenne stations. Two of them are on the air, KGWN and KDEV, and the other, KLWY, will flash cut at analog cutoff if they have the money. At analog cutoff, we'll have 4 stations operating on VHF frequences - 7 (KMGH), 9 (KUSA), 11 (KDEV), and 13 (KBDI). Some folks in the metro area may also be able to pick up 10 from the springs.

Here is the FAA guidance on painting towers.

Thanks for the info. When we see about 9 bands we know are close to the completion of the tower structure!

This whole tower debacle has only reinforced my disdain for today's government institutions and broadcasters in general. The FCC should have stepped in years ago to force the issue.

They are not working for us.

I was looking at the final Longitude and Latitude for KRMA. It looks like it is somewhere on Lookout, I'm guessing their old analog tower. The power is 1000 kW. I can't figure out for the life of me what they are up to except trying to lose viewers/pledges.

I know people have speculated that 6.1 HD is gone temporarily to broadcast the pledge drive, but it's been a couple weeks now of just the same SD as 6. Anybody know if and when HD is acutually coming back? Cuz' if it isn't, they can put their transmitter in Cleveland! :)

I had a very nice long talk yesterday with Joe Hiatt, Viewer Services Coordinator for KRMA. Specifically, what's happened to the Hi-Def feed on Comcast which has been simulcasting the Channel 6 SD feed on the HD channel for the past several weeks. Does KRMA-DT still exist?

Yes it does and is transmitting from Mt. Morrison but the Power Supply for the transmitter is broken and running in a severely degraded mode. They can only run it at about 30% of normal ERP. Above that and it shuts down completely. At this level, they have even less coverage than they did when they were on Republic.

So why can't Comcast re-transmit the HD signal? They can't receive it over the air! While they have a fiber feed for the SD Channel 6, they don't have a fiber feed of the HD signal. They SHOULD have fiber and they and KRMA have been working on it but for whatever reason it's not yet in place.

It was not KRMA's intention to subject their HD viewers to the pledge drive. Comcast just had no alternative other than to put the SD feed on both channels.

The fix, Joe said, was to get an engineer out from the company, parts in hand, to fix the transmitter. He didn't know why it was taking so long nor did he have an estimated repair date. Don't shoot the messenger.

So if you live real close to Mt. Morrison, you should be able to pick-up KRMA-HD over the air. Anybody tried it?

I had a very nice long talk yesterday with Joe Hiatt, Viewer Services Coordinator for KRMA. Specifically, what's happened to the Hi-Def feed on Comcast which has been simulcasting the Channel 6 SD feed on the HD channel for the past several weeks. Does KRMA-DT still exist?

Yes it does and is transmitting from Mt. Morrison but the Power Supply for the transmitter is broken and running in a severely degraded mode. They can only run it at about 30% of normal ERP. Above that and it shuts down completely. At this level, they have even less coverage than they did when they were on Republic.

So why can't Comcast re-transmit the HD signal? They can't receive it over the air! While they have a fiber feed for the SD Channel 6, they don't have a fiber feed of the HD signal. They SHOULD have fiber and they and KRMA have been working on it but for whatever reason it's not yet in place.

It was not KRMA's intention to subject their HD viewers to the pledge drive. Comcast just had no alternative other than to put the SD feed on both channels.

The fix, Joe said, was to get an engineer out from the company, parts in hand, to fix the transmitter. He didn't know why it was taking so long nor did he have an estimated repair date. Don't shoot the messenger.

So if you live real close to Mt. Morrison, you should be able to pick-up KRMA-HD over the air. Anybody tried it?

Early this week during the afternoon and early evening I could get 6-1 OTA. My TV reported that it was a 480i signal.

I was looking at the final Longitude and Latitude for KRMA. It looks like it is somewhere on Lookout, I'm guessing their old analog tower. The power is 1000 kW. I can't figure out for the life of me what they are up to except trying to lose viewers/pledges.

I did an FCC query for KRMA and found 2 listings for the digital transmitter:
KRMA-TV 18 0 DS STA 14040 13.8 kW 183. m
N 39 44 37.00 W 104 59 18.00
This appears to be the Republic Plaza location.

KRMA-TV 18 0 DT CP MOD 14040 115. kW DA 331. m
N 39 40 17.00 W 105 13 6.00
This appears to be a Mount Morrison location very close to the LIC locations for KTFD (14 analog, 15 DT) and and the LIC location for KTVD (20 analog). I presume that this is the "Ice Bridge" location.

I also got the following listing for the LIC analog transmitter:
KRMA-TV 6 - TV LIC 14040 100. kW 292. m
N 39 43 49.00 W 105 15
I believe that this is the current KRMA analog transmitter on Lookout Mountain.

I also examined the 8/6/2007 FCC Headline:
FCC Announces Final Assignment of Digital Television Channels.
Washington, DC – Today, the FCC released a new DTV Table which provides television stations across the country with their final channel assignments for broadcasting following the DTV transition on February 17, 2009...
Appendix B: 14040 CO DENVER 6 18 1000 292 74821 394349 1051500

I presume that the Appendix B entry for the final Digital Channel assignment of Denver NTSC channel 6 which is KRMA-DT is what you are referring to as the final Longitude and Latitude for KRMA. The transmitter location in Appendix B definitely seems to be the same as the current LIC analog transmitter.

Does the Appendix B entry mean that effective February 17, 2009, KRMA has the FCC authorization to begin broadcasting DT from that location? If that is the case, that would seem to provide what they need to get around the sCARE issues.

If KRMA has requested the ability to transmit from that location, does anyone know why it does not show up in the regular FCC query?

posted by kenavs:
I presume that the Appendix B entry for the final Digital Channel assignment of Denver NTSC channel 6 which is KRMA-DT is what you are referring to as the final Longitude and Latitude for KRMA. The transmitter location in Appendix B definitely seems to be the same as the current LIC analog transmitter.

Does the Appendix B entry mean that effective February 17, 2009, KRMA has the FCC authorization to begin broadcasting DT from that location? If that is the case, that would seem to provide what they need to get around the sCARE issues.

If KRMA has requested the ability to transmit from that location, does anyone know why it does not show up in the regular FCC query?
This stuff gets very confusing, but here's my take on this.

The first portion of the Seventh Review document you cite, up thru about page 12, details the process for arriving at what is depicted in Appendix B, which I posted in my last post. The key, as I read the document, is that modifications to construction permits, which KRMA filed to get authorization to transmit from the ice bridge, were not reflected in the Appendix B listings.

The FCC database is changed/purged from time to time. Currently, I couldn't find any reference to KRMA's original application to operate from LM with 1000 kW on channel 18. It apparently has been removed from the application listings. None of the current application listings reflect authorizations for any station, as far as I can tell, to move back to their analog channel (see KMGH or KUSA) or to move to a new channel (KDBI from channel 38 to channel 13) even though Appendix B reflects such moves.

I don't believe KRMA's listing on Appendix B locating its tower on LM is valid due to its filings to move to the ice bridge (a modification to its construction permit) dated in May 2007, which was granted.

KRMA, in my opinion, can easily get permission to move to LM. They had it previously, so there's no reason why that wouldn't be granted, especially in light of the fact that they could increase ERP and more closely replicate their analog coverage from LM, which is what the FCC set as a goal. They just haven't done it yet. Perhaps they never will.

One question I have regards their ownership of their analog tower on LM. Is that tower on LCG's property and, if so, is LCG somehow claiming/asserting they have the right to tear it down or otherwise deny KRMA from the full benefits of ownership? I just find it very poor business sense on the part of KRMA to not use its existing analog tower on LM for its digital operations unless there's something affecting its use that is not public knowledge.

I had a very nice long talk yesterday with Joe Hiatt, Viewer Services Coordinator for KRMA. Specifically, what's happened to the Hi-Def feed on Comcast which has been simulcasting the Channel 6 SD feed on the HD channel for the past several weeks. Does KRMA-DT still exist?

Yes it does and is transmitting from Mt. Morrison but the Power Supply for the transmitter is broken and running in a severely degraded mode. They can only run it at about 30% of normal ERP. Above that and it shuts down completely. At this level, they have even less coverage than they did when they were on Republic.

So why can't Comcast re-transmit the HD signal? They can't receive it over the air! While they have a fiber feed for the SD Channel 6, they don't have a fiber feed of the HD signal. They SHOULD have fiber and they and KRMA have been working on it but for whatever reason it's not yet in place.

It was not KRMA's intention to subject their HD viewers to the pledge drive. Comcast just had no alternative other than to put the SD feed on both channels.

The fix, Joe said, was to get an engineer out from the company, parts in hand, to fix the transmitter. He didn't know why it was taking so long nor did he have an estimated repair date. Don't shoot the messenger.

So if you live real close to Mt. Morrison, you should be able to pick-up KRMA-HD over the air. Anybody tried it?


I live in Thornton and have been receving their pledge drive on their digital OTA channel. Even if they can only run at 30% of normal ERP, why are they broadcasting the pledge drive on digital OTA rather than their HD? If the transmitter is "broken" how have I been able to receive a digital signal at all? I'm probably just confused, but could someone enlighten me?

posted by kenavs:

This stuff gets very confusing, but here's my take on this.

The first portion of the Seventh Review document you cite, up thru about page 12, details the process for arriving at what is depicted in Appendix B, which I posted in my last post. The key, as I read the document, is that modifications to construction permits, which KRMA filed to get authorization to transmit from the ice bridge, were not reflected in the Appendix B listings.

The FCC database is changed/purged from time to time. Currently, I couldn't find any reference to KRMA's original application to operate from LM with 1000 kW on channel 18. It apparently has been removed from the application listings. None of the current application listings reflect authorizations for any station, as far as I can tell, to move back to their analog channel (see KMGH or KUSA) or to move to a new channel (KDBI from channel 38 to channel 13) even though Appendix B reflects such moves.

I don't believe KRMA's listing on Appendix B locating its tower on LM is valid due to its filings to move to the ice bridge (a modification to its construction permit) dated in May 2007, which was granted.

KRMA, in my opinion, can easily get permission to move to LM. They had it previously, so there's no reason why that wouldn't be granted, especially in light of the fact that they could increase ERP and more closely replicate their analog coverage from LM, which is what the FCC set as a goal. They just haven't done it yet. Perhaps they never will.

One question I have regards their ownership of their analog tower on LM. Is that tower on LCG's property and, if so, is LCG somehow claiming/asserting they have the right to tear it down or otherwise deny KRMA from the full benefits of ownership? I just find it very poor business sense on the part of KRMA to not use its existing analog tower on LM for its digital operations unless there's something affecting its use that is not public knowledge.

Thanks for your thoughts on this matter. I agree, there must something we don't know about. That said, I also think it would be easy for them to get permission. There are plenty of other towers up there to broad cast from.

One question I have regards their ownership of their analog tower on LM. Is that tower on LCG's property and, if so, is LCG somehow claiming/asserting they have the right to tear it down or otherwise deny KRMA from the full benefits of ownership? I just find it very poor business sense on the part of KRMA to not use its existing analog tower on LM for its digital operations unless there's something affecting its use that is not public knowledge.

When I spoke to KRMA's head engineer earlier this year he told me the issue is that their current analog tower is old and at the end of its service life - they've been doing maintenance only when required because they knew it would go away after the analog shutoff - and so it would require a significant retrofit to use it for their digital transmitter. Whether that makes sense or not, I don't know, but it's what they told me.

That's another reason he gave for why they decided to put their transmitter on the ice bridge and why they would have to wait to see "if there is room" on the LCG tower.

Posted by kucharsk:
When I spoke to KRMA's head engineer earlier this year he told me the issue is that their current analog tower is old and at the end of its service life - they've been doing maintenance only when required because they knew it would go away after the analog shutoff - and so it would require a significant retrofit to use it for their digital transmitter. Whether that makes sense or not, I don't know, but it's what they told me.

That's another reason he gave for why they decided to put their transmitter on the ice bridge and why they would have to wait to see "if there is room" on the LCG tower.
I seem to recollect the situation regarding their aging tower now that you mention it. What I can't understand is, if KRMA was originally part of the LCG consortium, why is there a question about room on the new LM tower? Nothing has changed, other than KRMA dropped out of LCG.

Speaking of room on the LCG tower, I'm wondering what station gets to be on top. All of the other transmitters will have to be sidemounted, which, I believe, will create some dropouts in coverage due to the tower blocking signal radiation. Does anybody know who gets top billing?

Posted by kucharsk:

I seem to recollect the situation regarding their aging tower now that you mention it. What I can't understand is, if KRMA was originally part of the LCG consortium, why is there a question about room on the new LM tower? Nothing has changed, other than KRMA dropped out of LCG.
IIRC, after KRMA dropped out of LCG, the tower specs were slightly modified as part of LCG's attempts to appease sCARE/JeffCo. Part of the areas they were able to compromise on were a limit on the number of transmitters that would be active on the tower. Now, given the federal law, they're under no obligation to honor the commitments they made to the county. But adding another full power station would just give sCARE fuel for their "you can't trust the greedy corporate-owned TV stations" fire.

Thanks everyone for the replies to my VHF query.

milehighmike,
If I'm reading the FCC document correctly, only channels 9 and 7 will broadcast on VHF frequencies?

I'm trying to determine if I'll need a different antenna going forward. Currently, I can pick-up a snowy analog channel 9. Is it reasonable to assume I might have a shot at getting the digital version once it's being broadcast? Really, really don't want to have to install a big VHF monstrosity...

Give that DTV signals won't be on the VHF low band, just the high band, I'm hoping that some enterprising antenna company comes out with a VHF/UHF antenna that is designed for only the VHF high band. That would eliminate the huge receptor wings of today's batch of VHF antennas as the wave length of VHF high band frequencies is much shorter than the 108" you need currently need for channel 2.

Thanks everyone for the replies to my VHF query.


If I'm reading the FCC document correctly, only channels 9 and 7 will broadcast on VHF frequencies?



Channels 7,9,11,13 will broadcast on VHF. 11 is RTN network (Retro TV Net). 13 is KBDI.

Sorry, I should have clarified my question/statement that 7 and 9 will be the only VHF broadcasters from Lookout Mountain...

Posted by CEBII:
Give that DTV signals won't be on the VHF low band, just the high band, I'm hoping that some enterprising antenna company comes out with a VHF/UHF antenna that is designed for only the VHF high band. That would eliminate the huge receptor wings of today's batch of VHF antennas as the wave length of VHF high band frequencies is much shorter than the 108" you need currently need for channel 2.
Here's one: http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=HBU22

That just might be the answer for an attic or outdoor antenna after LOM DTV goes hot.

I am looking to get a Channel Master 4228 antenae. Can anyone tell me if there is a place in the Denver Metro area to purchase one? Shipping charges for one of these is really high

Thanks
George

I am looking to get a Channel Master 4228 antenae. Can anyone tell me if there is a place in the Denver Metro area to purchase one? Shipping charges for one of these is really high

Thanks
GeorgeUnfortunately, I couldn't find one locally when I was looking either. Solid Signal (http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?main_cat=03&CAT=&PROD=ANC4228) was the best I could do on total price (purchase + shipping).

BTW, this antenna is also very good for reception of VHF high, even though it is marketed as UHF only.

I got my CM 4228 from this place

http://www.warrenelectronics.com/antennas/4228.htm

+1 on Warren Electronics.

It looks like Warren is the best buy. However, how much was shipping? You can't get shipping costs until you put in an order.

Thanks
Geoege

Looks like KRMA-DT is down this evening. Last night I noticed they were broadcasting a Christmas special in HD.

Looks like KRMA-DT is down this evening. Last night I noticed they were broadcasting a Christmas special in HD.
I noticed the following post near the top of their web page http://www.krma.org I don't know how long it has been there. The good news is that they are acknowledging the problem. The bad news is that it has been a problem for 2 weeks.
KRMA-DT (Denver-area digital channel) is currently off the air or at low power. We are working on this problem and hope to have it back on as soon as possible. This will only affect over-the-air digital channel viewers.

I emailed KWGN this morning about tonights Bronco game and they will be offering the HD feed on channel 2-1 (UHF ch. 34).

I emailed KWGN this morning about tonights Bronco game and they will be offering the HD feed on channel 2-1 (UHF ch. 34).

Yippee! I truly hope that the NFL Network is a financial failure. The only games they broadcast that I will watch are those that are simulcast by OTA stations. Three cheers for KWGN!

So where is this "update" that was promised from the LCG on the LM tower.....it's December!

Yippee! I truly hope that the NFL Network is a financial failure. The only games they broadcast that I will watch are those that are simulcast by OTA stations. Three cheers for KWGN!

Why would you hope the NFL network fails? I think it's great that KWGN will be broadcasting the game in HD as well, but what is you problem with having MORE games available on NFL network? FWIW, via DIRECTV MPEG4, the PQ on the NFL network game broadcasts have been some of the best I have seen. The announcers suck, but the games have looked fabulous, IMHO. Sorry to go OT.

Why would you hope the NFL network fails? I think it's great that KWGN will be broadcasting the game in HD as well, but what is you problem with having MORE games available on NFL network? FWIW, via DIRECTV MPEG4, the PQ on the NFL network game broadcasts have been some of the best I have seen. The announcers suck, but the games have looked fabulous, IMHO. Sorry to go OT.

I'm a strong believer in OTA broadcasting by national and local networks. While I'm an E* subscriber since 1999, I did it primarily to get better PQ on my locals than the cable company could/would provide (OTA analog where I live is great if you only watch channels 2, 4, and 6). IMHO, the trend in pay TV is not good. I believe that in less than 20 years the SB will be pay-per-view. Of course I shouldn't care because the pay-per-view will be some of the best HD available, right?

End of rant.

I'm a strong believer in OTA broadcasting by national and local networks. While I'm an E* subscriber since 1999, I did it primarily to get better PQ on my locals than the cable company could/would provide (OTA analog where I live is great if you only watch channels 2, 4, and 6). IMHO, the trend in pay TV is not good. I believe that in less than 20 years the SB will be pay-per-view. Of course I shouldn't care because the pay-per-view will be some of the best HD available, right?

End of rant.

OK, fine. I can see this is a philosophical issue for you. But, I would have to say, that with the coming of ATSC, there is more free content out there than ever before. And, I would anticipate over time that only more content will become available, although I wish they would stop stealing my bandwidth for sub-channels.

The trend in pay TV is... what it is. However, I do like to have the option to buy more quality content if I choose.

So where is this "update" that was promised from the LCG on the LM tower.....it's December!Who needs them when dr_mal can post pictures right here? ;)

My view from 18 miles away indicates that they may have added another red segment to the tower. Hard to tell if it's that or the crane, but I think I could make out the different profile.

Who needs them when dr_mal can post pictures right here? ;)

My view from 18 miles away indicates that they may have added another red segment to the tower. Hard to tell if it's that or the crane, but I think I could make out the different profile.
Yeah...between work and the less-than-stellar weather, I didn't head up there today. Tomorrow's supposed to snow...maybe I can get a new picture on Monday. But I agree - it does look like it's taller than last week again.

Getting a strange sound every second or so from KWGN-DT during the Bronco's broadcast. It's been mentioned in the Denver Comcast thread as well by another viewer.
Good to hear LCG continues making progress on the new tower.

Getting a strange sound every second or so from KWGN-DT during the Bronco's broadcast. It's been mentioned in the Denver Comcast thread as well by another viewer.


I'm hearing it too. It sounds like a split second of hiss. Its happening about once a second give or take. Its happening during both the game and commercials.

So where is this "update" that was promised from the LCG on the LM tower.....it's December!

Ask and ye shall receive...


http://www.hdtvcolorado.com/

*Wipes tear from eye* It's-- it's one of the most beautiful things I've ever seen.

Ask and ye shall receive...


http://www.hdtvcolorado.com/

It's almost like they are reading the forum.
:)

I just love knowing that Deb probably takes a Xanax every time she sees another segment go up! haha!

I just love knowing that Deb probably takes a Xanax every time she sees another segment go up! haha!

Amen! And let's not forget our friend Al H too!
:D

Ask and ye shall receive...


http://www.hdtvcolorado.com/
I know, I know. I was thinking...........those pictures would make great Christmas cards, I am just dumbfounded on who to send those to.....?

HAHA

I was startled to see this mornings early Channel 4 news in high def! I never watch 4 in the morning and I had to do a double take. The composition was definitely 4x3 friendly with lots of air to either side of the newscaster and the infamous swirling graphics to fill up other empty space. Very high quality high def otherwise. If this has been covered before, I apologize.

I was startled to see this mornings early Channel 4 news in high def! I never watch 4 in the morning and I had to do a double take. The composition was definitely 4x3 friendly with lots of air to either side of the newscaster and the infamous swirling graphics to fill up other empty space. Very high quality high def otherwise. If this has been covered before, I apologize.About time. IMO, CBS is by far the furthest behind in HD content. Channel 4 seems to reflect that network HD philosophy.

About time. IMO, CBS is by far the furthest behind in HD content. Channel 4 seems to reflect that network HD philosophy.
Wow. I think CBS was the first network to have 100% HD primetime programming (excluding reality/news which isn't a CBS issue - it's across all networks).

Locally, KCNC was the first commercial station to have an HD signal more than 3 blocks away (no, KMGH, we haven't forgotten your coathook transmitter :) )

KCNC was the first (IIRC) in town to have 5.1 audio (for a Grammy awards show)

KCNC is the only 1080i station in town that isn't bitstarving their HD signal with a subchannel (KWGN - why on EARTH do we need a subchannel with a static slide? We KNOW the Tube is dead by now!)

Also, KCNC let KRMA (who beat everyone on the air with an HD signal) broadcast the Superbowl in HD back when CBS had rights but before KCNC had a transmitter.

Sure KUSA jumped ahead of everyone with HD news a few years ago, but to call KCNC furthest behind isn't really fair.

Either way, this sounds like great news (and not just because I recently predicted KCNC would have HD news sooner rather than later (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=11963742#post11963742) :cool: ) - I've set my TiVo to record the 5:00 news tonight and I'll check it out when I get home.

+1

This would be great news if KCNC is now doing news in HD. For several years now I have been 'stuck' with 9news since they are in HD. IMO they are waay to self promoting to be any good. Blood stories lead instead of real news, they often 'create' stories where there isn't real news, and the sports with Drew S. is a joke....literally, no sports content, just Drew making bad jokes and showing his bobble head collection. It will be awesome to finally have an alternative, especially for sports. Now as for the news in sports, at least from the Broncos, maybe we are better off with a station that doesn't really have content. The only Bronco news lately is all bad.
:(

KCNC News at 5pm - SD. Hmmm... I'll have to look tomorrow morning.

As noted above: KCNC was in SD for their evening news. Looks like someone forgot to tell them they are an industry leader.

CBS is the only major network who cannot yet manage to broadcast all of their NFL games in HD. Granted, only Fox has as many games per week to manage, but Fox has had all of their games in HD for several years now. CBS manages 5, which is one more than they did last year. I guess that's progress. :)

dr_mal, you are indeed a wise man! Good prediction.

Also, I don't believe Fox has had all of the NFL games in HD for several years, including this year. I believe they did/do SD stretch to 16:9 once in a while.

10 o'clock news on KCNC is still in SD. :(
Maybe a false alarm or they aren't quite ready and just ran a test. Has anyone heard KCNC talk about it or advertise a conversion to SD? I haven't.

On the way home tonight, I saw two red lights on the new tower!

10 o'clock news on KCNC is still in SD. :(
Maybe a false alarm or they aren't quite ready and just ran a test. Has anyone heard KCNC talk about it or advertise a conversion to SD? I haven't.
Well, I went ahead and sent an inquiry to Walt DeHaven (CBS4's general manager) to see what's up. In the past, he's been able to respond, but the last time I asked him about local news in HD (12/12/2006) I didn't get a reply, so I won't hold my breath.

Does anyone have contact info for Dave Wolf's replacement as chief engineer? Pat something I think...

dr_mal, you are indeed a wise man! Good prediction.
Well, that remains to be seen. I may still be eating crow for Christmas dinner :)

On the way home tonight, I saw two red lights on the new tower!
Now that's what I call progress! Any chance they can make them blink in the direction of the Carney and Hislop residences? ;)

On the way home tonight, I saw two red lights on the new tower!

I sure hope they are really really really bright....for safety reasons only of course.

In another few months it should be easy to spot people who live near or on Lookout Mountain. They will be the ones wearing Al's aluminum foil hats, and now will also be wearing heavy duty sun glasses.
:eek:

I came home last night and turned on 4 news. SD! Nothing like the appearance of being delusional. I saw what I saw Friday morning, it was HD.

Well, got word back from CBS 4's general manager:
We have not done any tests.We expect to be HD in the first half of ’08

Wow. I think CBS was the first network to have 100% HD primetime programming (excluding reality/news which isn't a CBS issue - it's across all networks).

Locally, KCNC was the first commercial station to have an HD signal more than 3 blocks away (no, KMGH, we haven't forgotten your coathook transmitter :) )

KCNC was the first (IIRC) in town to have 5.1 audio (for a Grammy awards show)

KCNC is the only 1080i station in town that isn't bitstarving their HD signal with a subchannel (KWGN - why on EARTH do we need a subchannel with a static slide? We KNOW the Tube is dead by now!)

Also, KCNC let KRMA (who beat everyone on the air with an HD signal) broadcast the Superbowl in HD back when CBS had rights but before KCNC had a transmitter.

Sure KUSA jumped ahead of everyone with HD news a few years ago, but to call KCNC furthest behind isn't really fair.

Well CBS was second with their late show in HD.

CBS still doesn't do all of their football in HD and when they do they haven't figured out how to do DD5.1 without constant dropouts.

KMGH and KUSA have all or most of their broadcasts in DD5.1, not so for KCNC.

CBS is the only one of the three major network morning shows still not in HD.

I think the case is pretty strong that KCNC is in line with their network's generally go slow approach to DTV. They may not be last, but they sure aren't first.

Looks like KUSA-DT has messed up their PSIP data; my Series 3 TiVO will no longer decode their signal (good signal strength, but a picture no longer displays for 9-1 or 9-2.)

Indeed, a look at the signal shows no PCR, Audio or Video PIDs are present. :(

Update at 3:32 AM: Looks like KUSA engineering may be playing around; PIDs are back for 9-1, but they're still missing at this time for 9-2.

Further update: 9-1 and 9-2 are both back, but currently 9-1 looks as if it's being fed with RealPlayer. You can actually see the background update about once a second and the macroblocks in people's faces. Weather Minus looks smoother…

7:25 - Still no 9-1. And 16-1 doesn't resolve to 9-1 for me any more (the other digital channels all resolve to their analog -1 equivalent)

Hopefully they figure out what they messed up before the finale of Journeyman tomorrow night...

9-1 is working here this evening. I hope they got things fixed for everyone.

I also notice that KRMA is apparently not interested in letting us watch the HD version of "The News Hour With Jim Lehrer" in HD. It is available on a new PBS national feed and being shown in many markets. They are still showing a cooking show at this time, and since I assume they do not have the capability to time shift the HD feeds (based upon what they show each night on 6-1), it would appear we are not likely to see the news in HD at any time in the near future.

Posted by JMartinko:
They are still showing a cooking show at this time, and since I assume they do not have the capability to time shift the HD feeds (based upon what they show each night on 6-1), it would appear we are not likely to see the news in HD at any time in the near future.
With their new and improved transmitter, the news isn't the only thing some viewers aren't receiving in HD.;)

I am not positive, but I think that KRMA-DT may be back up to signal strength similar to the level a few days before Thanksgiving. However, KRMA still has the following notice posted near the top of their web page http://www.krma.org
KRMA-DT (Denver-area digital channel) is currently off the air or at low power. We are working on this problem and hope to have it back on as soon as possible. This will only affect over-the-air digital channel viewers.

UPDATE: 12/18/2007 8:45PM
NEVER MIND!!!!!
I just looked at 6-1 again and it is breaking up badly. I guess I got fooled by the warm up. For some reason, my reception of 6-1 improves with higher temperature during this latest problem. This afternoon, the signal strength looked to be about 60%. Now its back to about 30%.

9-1 is working here this evening. I hope they got things fixed for everyone.

JM in Boulder, do you get good OTA reception for HD? What part of town do you live in. I'm northwest of town and don't get any SD signals clear at all with an internal antenna...wondering if HD is any better. What kind of reception equipment do you use.

JM in Boulder, do you get good OTA reception for HD? What part of town do you live in. I'm northwest of town and don't get any SD signals clear at all with an internal antenna...wondering if HD is any better. What kind of reception equipment do you use.

I am on the northeast side near 75th and Lookout Road in the Heatherwood subdivision. I get good HD reception on all of the RP and Lookout stations with a Radio Shack UHF only antenna strapped to a pole on my back deck pointing at the RP. The Lookout stations come in a sidelobe on the antenna so I do not have to re-point it. I do not get any reception of KBDI from Squaw. I have the antenna cable run directly to a D* HR-20 receiver for HD reception currently, but in the past I have used about 4 different HD OTA tuners in various C-Band satellite receivers as well with about the same results. I suspect my reception is improved as I am about halfway up the hill on the south side of Lookout Road, so although I do not have line of sight to the RP I am pretty high up in the terrain and about even with Davidson Mesa. I can see Lookout Mt. in the distance from my upstairs bedroom window. FWIW, I have never had a problem getting 6-1 from either the RP or Morrison. Oxothuk lives a few blocks east of me and has similar reception (not sure about 6-1 from Morrison though) and also gets KBDI although I do not know if he has to point his antenna to get it.

If you have something close to line of sight to the RP you should have a shot. Close to line of sight would mean no huge hills or buildings in your way. As for Lookout from your area, if likely will be hit and miss similar to your SD reception. If you are borderline SD reception, you probably won't know how you would do for HD until you try. You will likely need an outdoor or attic antenna. Avoid splitters to other TV sets until you know if it will work.

Hope that gives you some insight about reception in Boulder.