This thread is continued from...

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=28456

Thanks!

It had a good run.

I'll start off.... OTA=Good!

It had a good run.

I'll start off.... OTA=Good!

Part IV. Construction phase. Where is Hot to kick it off?

Don

Time to restart the pool. My entry
KTVD and KCNC go live on July 4, 2008
KUSA and KMGH go live on the Monday after the Super Bowl, 2009.

I guess I will be the first to say it.

Part 4 already, one of the busiest threads on the AVS forum, and STILL NO FULL POWER OTA HD in Denver. Truly an amazing story.
:mad:

I guess I will be the first to say it.

Part 4 already, one of the busiest threads on the AVS forum, and STILL NO FULL POWER OTA HD in Denver. Truly an amazing story.
:mad:

Look what sCARE did! Caused part 5 of the Denver OTA thread. I say Mr. Bott should go after 'em for this travesty, with the massive clout that he has. :D

Hey, let us all know what happens when that tower lights up. Maybe we could have an AVSForum party at the foot of the tower. I betcha some people would fly in for that!

What's even more disgusting than part IV is that "part 1" started after David closed the original thread which did not have a "part" in the name. This is really the 5th thread for this long and mostly pathetic story. Hail to Mark in Ft Collins for starting the original thread!

Look what sCARE did! Caused part 4 of the Denver OTA thread. I say Mr. Bott should go after 'em for this travesty, with the massive clout that he has. :D

Hey, let us all know what happens when that tower lights up. Maybe we could have an AVSForum party at the foot of the tower. I betcha some people would fly in for that!
We actually did that a few years ago when the first 'approval' was given by Jeffco. The LCG stations sponsored a barbeque at the base of the largest (KCNC) tower which sits just a few feet above the location for the new 'Super Tower". (S)CARE took that decision back to court and gummed up the works for another two years until Congress jumped in. I suspect there will likely actually be such a party again at some point during construction.

No offense to David or any of the other Mods, but how exactly do you keep "politics" out of this thread?

If it wasn't for "politics" on the local level we would have all been enjoying full power DTV from Lookout Mtn a long long time ago.

Furthermore, if it were not for "politics" on the Federal level we would presently not be seeing the first signs of construction on Lookout Mtn now. Without this intervention I doubt we would have even seen it in 02/2009!

I agree that political discussions in general should not be a part of this incredibly long thread, but in essence, "politics" and "political agendas" are what caused this huge mess in the first place.

Hopefully <fingers crossed, toes crossed, etc> that is all behind us now.

What's even more disgusting than part IV is that "part 1" started after David closed the original thread which did not have a "part" in the name. This is really the 5th thread for this long and mostly pathetic story. Hail to Mark in Ft Collins for starting the original thread!
Great point, I had forgotten about that first thread. I wonder if we hold the record for the most views (adding up all the threads) of any thread in the AVS forum?

We actually did that a few years ago when the first 'approval' was given by Jeffco. The LCG stations sponsored a barbeque at the base of the largest (KCNC) tower which sits just a few feet above the location for the new 'Super Tower". (S)CARE took that decision back to court and gummed up the works for another two years until Congress jumped in. I suspect there will likely actually be such a party again at some point during construction.
Make that three years.

My LCG on-air date guess is: 7/22/08
5 years after the Jeffco Commissioners 3-0 vote of approval.

LCG has said they will have a BBQ to celebrate. Just a bit too cold for some (not me) to have it right now. ;)

I will definitely be there for the BBQ! Will it be this spring or after the tower is complete?

My guess was 7/19/08.

Just got back from Hawaii and took the attached picture of the Waikiki skyline. The two towers on the building on the left side of the picture are KHON TV and, I presume, several others since a search of the FCC data base shows KHON, KITV, KGMB, KHET, KHNL, KHWE and KBFD all transmitting from downtown Honolulu. You can see two other towers, one red and white, on the right hand side of the picture, and another one just to the left of the wires hanging from the construction crane. There are two others in the picture, but I had to downrez it meet the size limitations of AVs in order to post it so they don't show up.

I'd advise Deb to stay away from Waikiki since it is evident that she would probably get sick from RF when laying on the beach. I also thought my tan might be from RF but it's going away, so it must have been from the sun. :D

Since we have a new thread, for the record I'll repost my LCG on-air office pool date as May 21, 2008.

Gonna miss the ol' thread...but looking forward to summer '08! A construction schedule of 15-18 months from now is reasonable for all of the work that has to be done. Hopefully, though, there will be more than a big hole in the ground come springtime when we can all get together again for a BBQ!

I'll say 12/28/2008 -- They seem to like doing things right at the end of the year.

New thread, new guess: July 29, 2008 (my birthday - kind of similar to my original guess [after the original BCC approval] of July 29, 2006. Only much much later.)

8/12/08 - My twin daughters birthday!!

Okay, I'll jump in and go for April 1st, 2008. It somehow seems appropriate.

I'll go with 07/04/08 for Full Power. :D

Someone (who knows how) is going to have to post a calendar so that we can keep track of these dates.

5/23/08 for first full power digital broadcast from the new tower (any one of the four stations)

Anyone get Gilmore Girls tonight on KWGN-DT? I didn't check myself, but my S3 Tivo says it didn't record it because no antenna signal was available (though it's there now…)

Man - I was on the first page of the last thread, and only made page 2 of this one.

I pick 2/19/2009 for go live on the new Consolidation Tower.

My guess for the pool is my birthday, 08/17/2008.

Pretty easy to keep track. They are all on the first page of the thread! Let's just hope there's not another 500 pages and a new thread before the tower is finished! ;)

8/30/08
I figure they will push to hit the air about 2 weeks before the fall season starts up.

I'll take 9/20/08

I'll take the overly optimistic 5/1/08. Crazier things have happened.

I'm not too concerned since I use radio shack bunny ears and get all of the stations, seeing as how I'm close enough that I'm baking in the radiation off Republic Plaza.

Why hasn't c-a-r-e had anything to say since they lost??

Anyone get Gilmore Girls tonight on KWGN-DT? I didn't check myself, but my S3 Tivo says it didn't record it because no antenna signal was available (though it's there now…)

I had the same issue. When I checked for reception at about 8:45 PM there was no signal at all for KWGN-DT. When I checked signal levels it didn't show signal at all.

In the pool I will take 8/14/08 - my bday.

Kurt

KWGN-DT was off for all of Gilmore Girls and when I checked it was off for Veronica Mars.
Haven't checked since.

Why hasn't c-a-r-e had anything to say since they lost??They have been in shock since the law passed. They did have a couple of quick quotes in the Golden Transcript that said;

"The act of Congress was like dropping a nuclear bomb on our communities"
"Both of our communities have been hurt by this, but it could have been done to any other community ... that's what's frightening."
"Now it's a matter of what we can do to best deal with this"

And the sCARE website was just updated to say they are "responding and exploring options." to both LCG and Public Interest Corporation/Bear Creek Development (Mt Morrision) continued tower development.

What's even more disgusting than part IV is that "part 1" started after David closed the original thread which did not have a "part" in the name. This is really the 5th thread for this long and mostly pathetic story. Hail to Mark in Ft Collins for starting the original thread!

I think that first thread started around August, 2000...

Since I didn't learn anything from some occasional earlier optimism, I'll guess March 30, 2008 for the first transmission from the new tower, to hopefully give residents some type of reasonable transition time before the analog shut-down.

Mark

I'll go with 8/8/08.
Crazy eights seems fitting.

KWGN-DT was off for all of Gilmore Girls and when I checked it was off for Veronica Mars.
Haven't checked since.

That would explain my "Zero Second" PVR recording of Veronica Mars. :mad:

Thanks for the heads up Pkeegan, at least I know it wasn't on my end.

So the new tower (operational mid-2008?) will broadcast 4, 7, 9, and 20, right? So what about the other stations? PBS 6? FOX 31? Anyone have any info on those? Thanks.

31 already has their own tower, 6 is in negotiations for a new site or they could decide to rejoin LCG (they were a part of it originally)

That would explain my "Zero Second" PVR recording of Veronica Mars. :mad:

Thanks for the heads up Pkeegan, at least I know it wasn't on my end.Right back at both of you. Good to know my S3 TiVo wasn't lying to me about there not being a signal. :D

Someone (who knows how) is going to have to post a calendar so that we can keep track of these dates.
Done!
http://www.google.com/calendar/images/ext/gc_button1_en.gif (http://www.google.com/calendar/render?cid=lcgonair%40dr-mal.com)

Done!
http://www.google.com/calendar/images/ext/gc_button1_en.gif (http://www.google.com/calendar/render?cid=lcgonair%40dr-mal.com)

That calendar is not public, you have to log in :(

I cant remember what I said before, but I will give 9-19-08 now.

That would explain my "Zero Second" PVR recording of Veronica Mars. :mad:Both GG and VM did show properly on Comcast. They must get a different signal path. I think I've heard that before for some stations, but not sure it applies to all.

I'm receiving KWGN-DT again. Last night was a perfect opportunity for Gilmore Girls and Veronica Mars. Too bad. I ended up watching them on Comcast analog. Seems like Gilmore Girls & Veronica Mars are the only CW shows being commented on.

I'll keep the pool. Here's a link.

http://www.santellaproductions.com/dtv/Onairdate.htm

What do we win????

A Laurel and Hearty congratulations? (stolen shamelessly from Blazing Saddles)

I was thinking more of... A poke in the eye with a blunt stick? ;)

What do we win????

A Laurel and Hearty congratulations? (stolen shamelessly from Blazing Saddles)

Hate to nitpick, but the line was "a laurel, and hardy handshake." ;)

I was thinking more of... A poke in the eye with a blunt stick? ;)
I have an idea. The honor of spending a day with Deb.

I have an idea. The honor of spending a day with Deb.Were you thinking of a blanket picnic, with wine (not whine) and cheese under the tower?

I guess I should pick a date... I'm pretty optimistic, so I'm going with 6/14/08.

Were you thinking of a blanket picnic, with wine (not whine) and cheese under the tower?
That will work.

I have an idea. The honor of spending a day with Deb.

I'll take a poke in the eye with a blunt stick, thanks.

Oh, a date for the tower: 2/17/09. Just in time. :-)

OK, I'll take 11/1/08. No cute reason for it, tho.

I cannot envision the stations that have elected to retain their present channel assignments switching to 8VSB before the current 2009 deadline:

a) They will want to hold on to their current OTA viewers for as long as possible and will wait until the Government STBs are available to their less effluent viewers.

b) They will be denied permission to discontinue NTSC before the transition date; the FCC will allow the maximum time for the public to be educated and prepare.

--- CHAS

I cannot envision the stations that have elected to retain their present channel assignments switching to 8VSB before the current 2009 deadline:

a) They will want to hold on to their current OTA viewers for as long as possible and will wait until the Government STBs are available to their less effluent viewers.

b) They will be denied permission to discontinue NTSC before the transition date; the FCC will allow the maximum time for the public to be educated and prepare.

--- CHASAffluent, I think you meant. I think you are probably right overall, although I expect there will be a lot of publicity about the transition by the middle of next year. And it is possible that the subsidized STBs will be available as well.

And there are a few stations which the FCC has already allowed to make the transition to digital only. I haven't heard of any case where a station requested a transition and the FCC denied it.

March 15 08'

I'll jump in ... September 14, 2008

Ah heck, I'll take 12/31/08

Deb eh, well, you could celebrate by taping her to a chair and then using a microwave in the same room.

Hello everyones, from your next door from New Mexico and I predict that your local Denver station will go on the air on 8-25-08! :D

Enjoy the victory over evil Scare!!

1-26-07

I cannot envision the stations that have elected to retain their present channel assignments switching to 8VSB before the current 2009 deadline:

a) They will want to hold on to their current OTA viewers for as long as possible and will wait until the Government STBs are available to their less effluent viewers.

b) They will be denied permission to discontinue NTSC before the transition date; the FCC will allow the maximum time for the public to be educated and prepare.

I don't agree. You're saying, in effect, that these stations (7 & 9) will be allowed to flash cut to digital in 2-09. Don't think the FCC is going to allow that.

I think they will - it's either that or stop the NTSC early.

I would expect some "middle of the night" tests where they shutdown NTSC to "test" the ATSC equipment before they actually go "live".

I think the full power will be a flash cut in 2/09. My opinion is that 7 and 9 will stay on their current low power UHF transmitters until that date. I dont know how much of the transmitter besides the exciter and the antenna is frequency specific, but it cant be cheap and seems like a waste to go full power UHF for just the few months possible

Like I said in the last thread...

If I still lived back there and was told by any station that they would not broadcast high power DT until they shutoff their NTSC transmitter and moved it to a new facility (after Feb 17 '09) I would bitch loudly and clearly to the FCC. That is just plain unacceptable. They have obligations to meet and just about every other TV station in the country has met those obligations and for any station to decide to hold off because they want to save cash is not only an insult to every OTA Denver viewer but also to every other TV station that will have been on the air for years by the time LCG2 is completed. Sorry that pig just ain't gonna fly.

If you read my posts from years ago you'll note that I have little respect for the way the FCC has handled this whole Lookout mess but even I don't think they'd let the stations slide on this. All they'd have to do is require them to get on the air or lose their license - alternately they could tell KMGH and KUSA that they cannot keep channels 7 & 9.

I think it entirely reasonable to expect they'll borrow or rent or buy the necessary equipment to get on the air ASAP after LCG2 is completed. Denver has waited long enough and further delay without just cause would be a kick in the groin (to put it politely). You all might want to hire Deb to sue their asses if that comes to pass......

You all might want to hire Deb to sue their asses if that comes to pass......Deb can't make anything happen. Her specialty is preventing anything from happening.

Affluent, I think you meant. I think you are probably right overall, although I expect there will be a lot of publicity about the transition by the middle of next year. And it is possible that the subsidized STBs will be available as well.

And there are a few stations which the FCC has already allowed to make the transition to digital only. I haven't heard of any case where a station requested a transition and the FCC denied it.


Yes affluent, that's an interesting oversight on my part!

I know of a station on Long Island the went digital only early. They were given permission to do so after the FCC determined that would not impact the public in it's coverage area because many NTSC stations can still be received.

If I operated a TV station, I also would want to get this digital thing behind me. But there are too many risks in a major metro area of prematurely loosing viewers. If you haven't noticed, the party controlling Congress has always considered this DTV initiative to be an assault on the poor and disadvantaged. The FCC is an instrument of that Congress. Maybe the date will be pushed back to 2012. Who knows?

In the TV business, viewers are dollars and I wouldn't want to loose any until the maximum number of them can receive my broadcasts. So I would wait until the last second before pulling the NTSC plug.

--- CHAS

As Geof said, stations all over the country that are planning to return to their (usually high VHF) NTSC channel are full power on their "temp" channel until analog cutoff. Take a look at KTVT in Dallas - 695 ERP on channel 19, but will be going back to channel 11 in 2-09 as just one example. I can't think of one valid reason why channels 7 & 9 should be exempted from going full power ASAP. They've already received a substantial "break", for lack of a better term, from operating both NTSC and full power ATSC for years that virtually no other market in the US has afforded.

Once the LCG tower is complete, which, by my entry into the "pool" would be May 2008, there is absolutely no excuse for channels 4, 7, 9, & 20 not being at full power. If they aren't, considering all the lead time they've had for site planning, designing their building, and shopping for electronic equipment, absent something other that an excuse that equates to procrastinating (like KOAA in the Springs), I'll volunteer to be the first to file a complaint with the FCC. And they don't have to shut off their NTSC transmitters to do this.

Folks on this thread have been bitching for years that Denver doesn't have full power OTA. Now it seems that many of you think the stations can delay this further up until 2-09 and it will probably be OK with you as you understand there's a financial commitment involved. I guess I don't get it.

Once the LCG tower is complete, which, by my entry into the "pool" would be May 2008...We ought to be clear on what our pool dates mean. I don't think most people were assuming this was tower complete, but an "on-air" date, as shown in the title on Ernie's calendar. Of course, since there's absolutely nothing at stake, I guess we don't have to be clear... :)

My guess for pool date is 11/21/09 (way late) and I proclaim that my guess be unclear!

Call me an optimist. My guess is that one station, probably KCNC will go live on the tower on Feb 19, 2008. Plenty of time to get it up and KCNC doesn't have to worry about channel reassignment. I wouldn't be surprised if 7 and 9 wait until cutoff date to avoid duplicating equipment.

Now it seems that many of you think the stations can delay this further up until 2-09 and it will probably be OK with you as you understand there's a financial commitment involved. I guess I don't get it.We're arguing about at most 6 to 9 months, for just two stations. After years of wondering if we would EVER have full-power DTV I'm just glad to finally have a data (2-09) that we can count on.

I don't think most people were assuming this was tower complete, but an "on-air" date for at least one of the four LCG stations. At least that's what I meant with my prediction.

Here is my take on when you will see full power digital at Denver.

Facts as I understand them:

1) Several Denver stations are transmitting NTSC on VHF channels from their own towers on Lookout. They are transmitting NTSC at their maximum authorized power. Most plan to use the same channels for ATSC digital.

2) These stations are also transmitting ATSC on 'loaned' UHF Channels from a downtown location using whatever power they are authorized to do this. They will relinquish these UHF channels when they go digital only on VHF from Lookout. The present UHF digital downtown site is then permanently turned off and is no longer a factor. The old NTSC equipment remains in service until the changeover moment and then either goes into the garbage or, if possible, is modified for ATSC and moved into the new vault as a backup.

3) They cannot turn on their new full power digital stations until they pull the NTSC plug. Obviously they cannot simultaneously operate NTSC and ATSC on their elected VHF channels.

4) They will wait for the new consolidated site to be completed before they broadcast digital from lookout.

5) They are not required to do anything different from they do today until a Congressionally mandated time arrives.

I'll still contend that management will wait until the last moment or they may not get early permission. So, I'll cast my vote for the last second of the analog era (whenever that is) for Lookout full power digital.

--- CHAS

Like I said in the last thread...

If I still lived back there and was told by any station that they would not broadcast high power DT until they shutoff their NTSC transmitter and moved it to a new facility (after Feb 17 '09) I would bitch loudly and clearly to the FCC. That is just plain unacceptable. They have obligations to meet and just about every other TV station in the country has met those obligations and for any station to decide to hold off because they want to save cash is not only an insult to every OTA Denver viewer but also to every other TV station that will have been on the air for years by the time LCG2 is completed. Sorry that pig just ain't gonna fly.

If you read my posts from years ago you'll note that I have little respect for the way the FCC has handled this whole Lookout mess but even I don't think they'd let the stations slide on this. All they'd have to do is require them to get on the air or lose their license - alternately they could tell KMGH and KUSA that they cannot keep channels 7 & 9.

I think it entirely reasonable to expect they'll borrow or rent or buy the necessary equipment to get on the air ASAP after LCG2 is completed. Denver has waited long enough and further delay without just cause would be a kick in the groin (to put it politely). You all might want to hire Deb to sue their asses if that comes to pass......
AMEN!

What he said!
[Curmudgeon Mode ON]
I agree 100% with Geof. All (S)CARE really did was provide the LCG stations with a convenient excuse to avoid the cost of dual transmission which every other major station in the country has had to absorb. I don't care if they will only be up for two weeks at full power before dropping the NTSC analog and switching back to the old frequencies, I expect ALL of the station to be on the air in ATSC as soon as possible. They have been given a free ride by the FCC for many years, and I have no doubt that even if they have to buy extra equipment to be on the air from Lookout on their current frequencies and do a 'flash cut' to Lookout at the time they shut down the RB, they have had the advantage of 3-5 years of price drops on the equipment as the technology has become more commonplace. They should do this as soon as possible, not when it is convenient to shut off the analog. PERIOD! I blame the LCG and the FCC as much as (S)CARE for this entire fiasco, which may account for my being so frustrated as to become a major curmudgeon on this thread. Yes, I wanted the LCG to win, but that does not exonerate them from blame in this matter. The FCC on its own has been FAR too lenient on these stations as well. They should have fined the LCG stations by the month starting several years ago.
:mad:
[/curmudgeon Mode OFF]

I'm staying with my original guess, September 29, 2008.

John, I agree with your eloquent opinion 100%. We do not have to have any empathy for the LCG stations regarding any further delays in reaching full power digital status.

3) They cannot turn on their new full power digital stations until they pull the NTSC plug. Obviously they cannot simultaneously operate NTSC and ATSC on their elected VHF channels.

HIPAR, the first sentence is not correct. While it's true that channels 7 & 9 cannot broadcast a digital signal on those frequencies until after analog cutoff, they can (and must in my opinion) go full power digital on channels 16 & 17 until analog cutoff. If these two stations need to purchase some new equipment that they'll only be able to use for a few months, one must remember that they'll only use it for months because they should have taken stronger steps years ago to go full power. In other words, that's too damn bad!

5) They are not required to do anything different from they do today until a Congressionally mandated time arrives.

And perhaps you forgot that the four major networks were required to be at full digital power quite some time ago and all other full power stations, which includes channel 20, were required to be at full power 12-31-06 unless they received approval to flash cut. (Not that the FCC appears to be enforcing this requirement - KGWN in Cheyenne, a CBS affiliate, still is on it's STA)

As far as my "pool" date, I guess I wasn't clear, as you correctly point out, Gakon. I thought the pool was to predict the first full power transmission date of any of the LCG channels and my previous post wasn't clear in that regard.

Done!
http://www.google.com/calendar/images/ext/gc_button1_en.gif (http://www.google.com/calendar/render?cid=lcgonair%40dr-mal.com)
To use this Google calendar, login (or create an account first) and use the "search public calendars" function to look for "lcgonair". There is only one search result.

dr_mal, I wasn't trying to step on your calender by creating a new one, I just thought It would help to have an quick, online one.

Your date is fixed!

Okay I will jump in and say that 7 and 9 will cutt over because if 4 changes over as soon as possible they with 31 and 2 will be the only HD in town. This would allow the CBS affilate to gain market share which of course 7 and 9 would not want to happen.

Well was that clear as mud :)

dr_mal, I wasn't trying to step on your calender by creating a new one, I just thought I would help to have an quick, online one.
No worries - I didn't know if anyone here used Google Calendar on a regular basis - it's overkill for just this pool.

BTW - my guess was 7/29/08, not 8/29/08 :)

I have always been extremely pessimistic about the prospects of LCG2 ever happening. This was indicated by the most pessimistic guess in the last go round of the LCG2 live contest. I am assuming we only need 1 live ATSC stream to establish the LCG2 date.

I therefore, notwithstanding any flange shortages, establish my new guess at the most optimistic date of December 27, 2007. That's right. 2007.

Don

.............I therefore, notwithstanding any flange shortages, establish my new guess at the most optimistic date of December 27, 2007. That's right. 2007.

Don
:eek:

For some reason, I sure hope you win!

First of all, I agree with all the 'curmudgeons'

(Not that the FCC appears to be enforcing this requirement - KGWN in Cheyenne, a CBS affiliate, still is on it's STA)
Wow, R U kidding me? They are my most reliable station with my best signal strength(from 147 miles :p ). If they are putting out only low power, they are as big of a fluke as KMGH was prior to moving to RP.

As far as the FCC incompetence goes. They are just like the rest of our wonderful government. If it's not for political reasons or to pacify corporate America, it usually doesn't happen. I find it particularly distasteful that they just sat on their hands through this whole episode.

I do find it funny that in a state with the worst abusers of the FCC digital full power 'rules', 2 senators had to create a bill 'under the cover of darkness' to move things along. It would have just been easier if the FCC had the balls to force the issue years ago.

As far as LCG is concerned, I expect them to 'keep playing the game'. I would guess that the '15 to 18 months' estimate is just more BS to try and appear that they really are planning on going live prior to 02/17/09. So, I don't expect it.

After all, the millions required does LCG more good invested than sitting on the side of a mountain depreciating.
....jc

So, what would everyone here do if THEY were in charge of the stations? Remember, you can't piss off the viewers, the FCC, the environmentalists, the Cable companies, the DBS companies, the local authorities, or the stockholders....or you lose your job.

(BTW, funding is not infinite.)

Well, what I'd do and what will most likely happen are two different things. I'd build the new tower, and broadcast OTA DTV and turn-off the analog a little early. (It might be a couple of months early - not that big of a deal as it will go away anyway) Yes, it will be to the dismay of some, but then try to work out giving away the cheapo, OTA DTV receivers to the poor.

But, what will most likely happen is... They'll continue as is (LP DTV from Republic Plaza & Analog from Lookout). Take their time building the new tower right up until the deadline. Then do the full switch-out to DTV on 2/09.

I had been analyzing it as a businessman, not as an enthusiast. The wild card I dont know the answer for is the FCC. To start, this discussion is regarding 7 and 9 only, I'm sure 4 and 20 will go full power as soon as they can. First off, while the RP transmitters may only cover 40% of the designated land area, they do cover 80% of the population in that area. Second, excluding enthusiasts I would be willing to bet 99% of HD viewers get their signal from cable or satellite. Third, those who want OTA have already put up their big antenna so all those people lose is an earlier date to swap out antennas. Analyzing all that, a few extra months of LP is not a big deal from a business standpoint.

I had been analyzing it as a businessman, not as an enthusiast.

And that is the correct course for an analysis. TV is a business. Bottom line oriented businessmen resist change and do not expend funds on anything superfluous.

Hope I haven't annoyed the enthusiasts too much!

--- CHAS

TV is a business. Bottom line oriented businessmen resist change and do not expend funds on anything superfluous.

TV is a business, but it is subject to FCC rules and regulations. And it goes that bottom line thinking may not be achievable to its fullest because of, again, FCC rules and regulations. And I guess all of the other stations around the country that have been operating dual analog and digital facitilites expended funds superfluously?

One thing that we all seem to agree on is that channels 4 & 20 will probably be up and running as soon as they can. The reasoning - they are staying on their STA frequencies. One thing we really haven't considered is, if 4 & 20 go full power before 2-09 and 7 & 9 don't, what possible, plausible, believable, excuse can 7 & 9 come up with other than to not spend funds superfluously?

One thing that we all seem to agree on is that channels 4 & 20 will probably be up and running as soon as they can.
You mean in 12 to 15 months? And, they can't do jack chit if the tower or building isn't ready.

The reasoning - they are staying on their STA frequencies. One thing we really haven't considered is, if 4 & 20 go full power before 2-09 and 7 & 9 don't, what possible, plausible, believable, excuse can 7 & 9 come up with other than to not spend funds superfluously?
Hmmm...These guys can probably figure it out. They could always look to DC for examples.

There could always be the discovery of the 'flying irradiated rat'. Yup, a genuine endangered species.

Or, there could always be a steel shortage. Yup, we need to use special China steel, and the plant in Qigihar can't meet demand.

Or, the predicted winds for the next 12 months preclude any tower work. So, geez fellas(FCC) there's nothing that we can do.

The only reason the FCC would deny an extension(or series of them) is that the idiots used the wrong form.
....jc

I think it may even be easier than that - they will simply claim hardship. After all, those other stations have been able to spread their capital expenditures on equipment over several years, many continue on beyond the cutoff. Our per diem operating expense will be through the roof - much, much higher than anyone else since we can only spread the expenditure out over a few months. You'll drive us out of business!!!

T One thing we really haven't considered is, if 4 & 20 go full power before 2-09 and 7 & 9 don't, what possible, plausible, believable, excuse can 7 & 9 come up with other than to not spend funds superfluously?

Actually that's rather simple to answer. Aren't they all partners in this DTV consolidation enterprise? Will these partners try to undercut each other in this manner? They will wait until everyone is ready and turn on their brand new DTV stations together.

That's not saying they will stop trying to gain greater market share in the more usual ways.

--- CHAS

I would be interesting to see what would happen(pure fiction) if the FCC said that it's disgusted with the behavior of the Denver stations. The FCC gives them the ultimatum: In 6 months we're going to pull your NTSC licenses. You've dinked around long enough. Your digital CP's will also expire and not be renewable after 6 months.

How long do ya think it would take to get the new tower built and operational?

Yea, that's what I thought. 12 to 15 months my a$$.
....jc

I would be interesting to see what would happen(pure fiction) if the FCC said that it's disgusted with the behavior of the Denver stations. The FCC gives them the ultimatum: In 6 months we're going to pull your NTSC licenses. You've dinked around long enough. Your digital CP's will also expire and not be renewable after 6 months.

How long do ya think it would take to get the new tower built and operational?

Yea, that's what I thought. 12 to 15 months my a$$.
....jc
Well, all things aside, the tower consortium does want it up and the manufacturer wants to make money. The FCC wants it up and the TV stations are tired of all of this. They WANT this thing up ASAP. And maybe even moreso motivated so that they tick off the very residents that wanted it moved elsewhere in the first place.

What you MIGHT see happen is stations not going to their original full power levels, but still at full power. Here's an example: WREX-DT in Rockford, IL originally had an app in for 1 million watts on channel 54. Seeing others at 80% less power going out and covering the DMA, they decided, just before the July 1 cutoff,
to go to under 200 kw. With a good antenna, a 15 kw low power signal gets out 40 miles plus. A Chicago station on Sears Tower with an STA of 15 kw easily got out 60 miles. Granted, it's 1,600' up, but how high above average terrain is yours going to be? If you can get away with 100 kw to cover your DMA, as one Chicago PBS station does, why not do it? 60 miles away, that station nearly pegs my signal meter.

If anything, I wish that all of the broadcasters who filed low-power STAs did so with enough signal to at least cover the market with an outfoor antenna. Many just threw up 100 watt lightbulbs on their analog transmitter towers to get 2 kw-ish of power. Our local TBN affiliate did 50 watts ERP on channel 10 to start out.
If stations would have been at high power two years ago, more people would have discovered DTV OTA and wanted it. To that end, broadcasters who did this are to blame, in part, for the slow acceptance of DTV. You have to take the loss first. Many didn't, and it hurt everybody. The FCC should never have allowed these low-power STA's, or at least have a market coverage signal over them if they did.

But that's neither here nor there now. Just build the thing, throw the barbecue,
lightning the fire using their promotional pieces, either leaflets handed out or printed off the Internet, and crank the juice.

Well, all things aside, the tower consortium does want it up and the manufacturer wants to make money. The FCC wants it up and the TV stations are tired of all of this. They WANT this thing up ASAP. And maybe even moreso motivated so that they tick off the very residents that wanted it moved elsewhere in the first place.
:rolleyes:

http://www.panelcrafters.net/rotflmao.gifhttp://www.panelcrafters.net/rotflmao.gifhttp://www.panelcrafters.net/rotflmao.gifhttp://www.panelcrafters.net/rotflmao.gifhttp://www.panelcrafters.net/rotflmao.gifhttp://www.panelcrafters.net/rotflmao.gifhttp://www.panelcrafters.net/rotflmao.gifhttp://www.panelcrafters.net/rotflmao.gif

:rolleyes:

http://www.panelcrafters.net/rotflmao.gifhttp://www.panelcrafters.net/rotflmao.gifhttp://www.panelcrafters.net/rotflmao.gifhttp://www.panelcrafters.net/rotflmao.gifhttp://www.panelcrafters.net/rotflmao.gifhttp://www.panelcrafters.net/rotflmao.gifhttp://www.panelcrafters.net/rotflmao.gifhttp://www.panelcrafters.net/rotflmao.gif
Couldn't have said it better myself.
ROFLMAO

Gilbert
Maybe you just had to be there (or in this case, you just had to be HERE). The stations here are in as big a hurry to be on the air as I am to buy that new estate in Aspen I can't afford. As long as they stick together in the LCG they don't have to worry that one will get on the air and make the others look bad. They will drag their feet and get on the air all at the same time at the very last minute no matter how slow they have to move.

I think it may even be easier than that - they will simply claim hardship. After all, those other stations have been able to spread their capital expenditures on equipment over several years, many continue on beyond the cutoff. Our per diem operating expense will be through the roof - much, much higher than anyone else since we can only spread the expenditure out over a few months. You'll drive us out of business!!!

I hope you're not serious! Stations owned by CBS, Gannett, and McGraw Hill are claiming hardship? I guess these owners don't have any other stations (that are at full power?).

Per diem operating expenses. Give me a break. Don't throw cost accounting and economic benefit analysis into this. Doesn't matter when a station had to buy the new equipment for digital broadcasting. The COST is approximately the same for everyone. The period these stations write it off over (per diem expenses) merely spreads it over income statements. Delaying the expenditures, with no negative effect on income, then writing them off over a shorter period of time, evens out over time.

And You'll drive us out of business!!! :D

They will drag their feet and get on the air all at the same time at the very last minute no matter how slow they have to move.

John, will all due respect, is that why you picked 8-30-08 as your pool date?

Someone (who knows how) is going to have to post a calendar so that we can keep track of these dates.Been there -- done that -- too tired.

Go Ernie!

Well I certainly don't think the LCG stations were in a terrible hurry to get LCG2 built and they still may not be, but I think their successful lobbing for S.4092 shows that they were at least determined to get this issue resolved - in their favor of course. Of course they saved a truckload of dollars with S.4092 since Lookout has the roads and power so nothing to pay for there and the STL's pretty much stay the same since they're not moving off the mountain. That said I don't think they are going to dawdle with getting LCG2 done. They need to strike while the iron is hot and get the thing built before any other setbacks happen. Stretching the build out costs money (the contractor isn't going to sit around for free while they stretch this out) and the cost of building materials seems to go up every week (trust me on this I know it all too well). More importantly, stretching the build out just leaves an open window for more suits and injunctions......we know a judge will issue a stop work order to keep them from building but can you imagine a judge issuing an injunction to make them stop broadcasting? Nah they need to get this thing built as quickly as possible and I'm pretty confident they know that.

Now then, once the facilities are built there is no way in hell, and I mean absofrickinlutely no way in hell, the FCC is going to allow KMGH and KUSA to not power up because they want to wait until they can use channels 7 & 9.

Couldn't have said it better myself.
ROFLMAO

Gilbert
Maybe you just had to be there (or in this case, you just had to be HERE). The stations here are in as big a hurry to be on the air as I am to buy that new estate in Aspen I can't afford. As long as they stick together in the LCG they don't have to worry that one will get on the air and make the others look bad. They will drag their feet and get on the air all at the same time at the very last minute no matter how slow they have to move.

TPW and JM:

I agree with you in the sense that they would *want* to dawdle. But with the prospects of additional lawsuits and other things, external factors are forcing their hand to want to get this done with ASAP. Still, duly note: I still forecast a 2/09 sign-on date. I said they want to get it done ASAP. I never said it *would* get done ASAP. :)

John, will all due respect, is that why you picked 8-30-08 as your pool date?
No, I am trying to be an optimist and hoping that pressure from local citizens as well as the FCC will get them to at least try to be on the air for the fall season about 6 months before they need to be. I think that is about the earliest date they will push to make. I agree with others, there is a certain level of pressure from several sources including the fear of another court case which will provide at least some impetus to get this done now. I suspect that most of the equipment they already own at the RB can serve as backup for the Lookout stuff. I assume they will need backup gear anyway, so I don't see that as a loss other than the translators for the stations that will change back to their existing analog frequencies. As I said, I am trying to be optimistic. I just don't think the FCC will let them all stall until the 2009 cutoff date now that their major excuse ((S)CARE) is out of the picture. I assume they will push for something less than ASAP, but at least enough time before the 'drop dead date' to keep the FCC of their backs. Besides, the date I took is simply a guess, I am not aware of any personal costs for being wrong, which I have been many times on this subject.

New article in Denver Post (http://www.denverpost.com/ci_5108424) on the tower.

Looks like Jefco wants channel 2 on the tower. Deb's mad (as always).

Jeffco still wants input on tower construction and Deb Carney has now turned on the county officials that were her staunchest allies year ago.

http://www.denverpost.com/ci_5108424

The Rocky has the story too. (Same info)

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/local/article/0,1299,DRMN_15_5312731,00.html

It's official now, the County has finally listened to their own lawyers who've told them... we're screwed. All that's left is begging for crumbs. And best of all, now as far as they are concerned, its Deb who?

Area residents, many of whom are represented by Canyon Area Residents for the Environment, are upset.
"We're outraged that we haven't been included," said CARE attorney Deb Carney. Jefferson County officials are "totally rolling over and are not fulfilling their oath of office by not even including the people who live there in these discussions." Because the commissioners have finally realized that listening to these people has only gotten them into trouble. Jeffco is a lot larger than just the area represented by sCARE. I like how the Rocky didn't even give Deb a quote.
Not that I'd expect it to happen, but I think it would be great to get channel 2 on the tower as well. What's funny is that the the mountain backdrop could end up being a lot "cleaner" now that S.4092 has passed than if sCARE had gotten its way and prevented construction of the tower. Of course, that's what people have been arguing all along.

From the Rocky story:

"For more than a decade the group of broadcasters sought the county's approval to build new towers on Lookout Mountain capable of handling the larger and heavier digital TV transmitters."

I've never heard this one before. I can't think of any reason why the transmitters would be any different (maybe UHF for 4-1 vs. VHF for 4-0).

From the Rocky story:

"For more than a decade the group of broadcasters sought the county's approval to build new towers on Lookout Mountain capable of handling the larger and heavier digital TV transmitters."

I've never heard this one before. I can't think of any reason why the transmitters would be any different (maybe UHF for 4-1 vs. VHF for 4-0).That is obviously incorrect since the transmitters themselves do not sit on the tower. I think what he meant to say was "antennas" (duh) which may be larger and heaver but not because they are transmitting digital signals. Directional antennas would be heavier then their omni directional counterparts. Secondly, the new tower will hold antennas for at least 4 stations and that is certainly not the case for the existing towers.

Poor ole Deb, whining once again. :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)

The stations that are currently on RP should consider moving their existing DTV low-power transmitters from RP to the new tower as soon as it is built. IIRC, there is a state educational network in the midwest that is using a "mobile transmitter site", all built in to a large truck, to "fill in" during reconstruction of their sites. Maybe something similar could be used for the short time that each station is moving from RP to the new tower. Once the new tower and it's building is complete, perhaps KCNC and KTVD could go ahead and broadcast full-power, while KMGH and KUSA could share use of a UHF transmitter that is destined to be a "backup" transmitter for one of the other stations, but can be re-tuned to one of the existing UHF STA channels. They can then work on installing their permanent VHF transmitters.

It might not be possible to operate the temporary station at full power, due to mutual interference, but it's a lot better than having (KMGH and KUSA) to buy and operate two full-power UHF transmitters and antennas for only a few months.

I thought it was interesting that although the subject of channel 2 was brought up in one article, there was no mention of channel 6. It seems to me that KRMA is the station still left with the major problem, and I haven't seen discussions of what their plans will be. Somehow I just don't see them getting approval for the Morrison site.

Great to see Deb's group being phased out of the story. After years of being in the spotlight (which she apparently loves) she is being downgraded from a major player to an interested bystander. I wonder what her law firm will do now, maybe they will try to shut down the FM stations on Lookout????

"I don't want to see a proliferation of towers; I want to see a consolidation," said Commissioner Kevin McCasky. "It's not in the best interests of our citizens to continue a legal dispute."
I like this quote the best. Did they not know LCG's proposal was a consolidation not a proliferation of towers. Don't feel the least bit sorry that they are no longer calling the shots. Just think if they would have listened they would still have a say in future proposals on Lookout. They really screwed themselves and I don't feel the least bit sorry for them. The county owes CARE nothing. Ernie you right wine (not whine).

I thought it was interesting that although the subject of channel 2 was brought up in one article, there was no mention of channel 6. It seems to me that KRMA is the station still left with the major problem, and I haven't seen discussions of what their plans will be. Somehow I just don't see them getting approval for the Morrison site.
It was brought up so 5 towers would be replaced by 1. They are still trying to bargain without any bargaining power.
I have an idea move channel 2 to the new tower. Then let KRMA take over Channel 2's tower. Isn't it now possible for KMRA to move to or build on Lookout.
It must be devistating for them to go from being in control to be controlled.

Great to see Deb's group being phased out of the story. After years of being in the spotlight (which she apparently loves) she is being downgraded from a major player to an interested bystander. I wonder what her law firm will do now, maybe they will try to shut down the FM stations on Lookout????Maybe she is now disinterested. One thing we know for sure. You can fill in the blanks.

Also, I find it interesting that there hasn't been a peep from the City & Mountain Views rag. She thought she was so high and mighty too. Especially when I frustrated her with actual answers to all her questions and she then blew-up and told me to go F*ck myself. Well, guess who got f*cked in the end?

Update:

sCARE just updated their website again. Guess she has plenty of time on her hands to attempt to over-ride the President's law.

http://www.c-a-r-e.org/

I suppose if Deb ever quit filing appeals she would have to find a real job. As long as she keeps this up she can keep drawing a salary from the (S)CARE funds. I have never heard any comments about her work being 'pro bono' or whatever they call it, so like any 'good lawyer', you never stop those billable hours until the client makes you stop. And here I was worried she would have nothing to do. At somne point though, I would think those (S)CARE funds and contributions will start to dry up as it dawns on the folks that they are throwing money down a hole.

PS
My apologies to any real lawyers in our thread.

Especially when I frustrated her with actual answers to all her questions and she then blew-up and told me to go F*ck myself.
Gasp! I'll have to contact the 'Outhouse' committee. She may not be worthy.
....jc

Gasp! I'll have to contact the 'Outhouse' committee. She may not be worthy.
....jcI told this story a couple of years ago. Carole Lomond called me when she saw my name on a list of speakers at one of the JeffCo public hearings. She calls me and says she wants to interview me (Like I'm the only one living on the mountain Pro-tower).

She starts asking me questions about why I'm for the super-tower and why would should I support more towers etc. I tell some real facts that they are reducing the number of towers and this is a 'consolidation' of towers that'll benefit us living up here by improving our property values. She also asked about alternates like Eldorado or Squaw Mt. I tell her about the huge shadowing issue and how even Mr. Hislop admitted to the shadowing problem. She starts to get upset.

So, then when she's about done with me, I ask her a few questions about why was she endangering herself and family by continuing to live here and why do you think the familes and children on Squaw Mt. are less important than your family? That's about when she blew-up and told me to go F-myself, then hangs up. Quality journalism.

She's a real piece-of-work.

Who thinks that local judge will do the right thing and dismiss his legal obstacles to the project? He will be overruled but the question is at what level of jurisdiction. Can this go directly to the federal level for a quick resolution if sCare's legal antic's continue to complicate the matter?

Can LCG be held in contempt for it's current construction activity? Is that activity an attempt to expose the remaining legal issues?

Lots of strategies here. This is fun.


--- CHAS

Who thinks that local judge will do the right thing and dismiss his legal obstacles to the project? He will be overruled but the question is at what level of jurisdiction. Can this go directly to the federal level for a quick resolution if sCare's legal antic's continue to complicate the matter?IANAL, but I think if Judge Jackson rejects or dithers on LCG's motion to dismiss, then LCG would file suit in federal court to overrule/vacate his injunction - and would probably win as soon as the case could be heard. But I think they want to at least give him the chance to do the right thing before taking that step.

LCG's current construction work is just prep work for rain run-off. They have stated that is allowed by their existing zoning.

Timing at the moment is great, as they can't really start construction very easily right now anyway, so, the sCARE legal 'shinanagians' really aren't holding up anything. And actually, LCG's negotiations with JeffCo are a good thing as then everything will be worked out before construction begins and all parties will be happy... well, except you know who.

I really have to wonder just how much longer that (S)CARE and Deb are going to be able to keep all those HOA's in the area contributing large amounts of cash to this lost cause. At some point, if I were one of the residents there, I would say "enough is enough, I am not donating money to keep Deb employed since we have already lost this case both in Congress and in the court of public opinion." It sounds like Jeffco has gotten the message and is not going to spend more money fighting this, and it sounds like Golden City Council has also seen the light. At some point the supporters of (S)CARE will convert too.

Anyone notice a change in Channel 15 signal strength recently? I've never been able to get more than 49% and no lock. But, now I lock w/o a problem with a signal in the low to mid-70s. Did Channel 15 go full power or something?

BTW, I'm not a concerned viewer of Channel 15, I'm just trying to stay abreast of the available DTV signals in our area.

Anyone notice a change in Channel 15 signal strength recently? I've never been able to get more than 49% and no lock. But, now I lock w/o a problem with a signal in the low to mid-70s. Did Channel 15 go full power or something?

BTW, I'm not a concerned viewer of Channel 15, I'm just trying to stay abreast of the available DTV signals in our area.They've always been pretty strong for me, but something about their datastreeam confuses my LG4200A receiver. I get a program guide, but no video or audio. A different receiver (in my HTPC) has no problem.

On a slightly related topic, I noticed that KCEC-DT has finally started sending real audio and video again - for a long time they just had a freeze frame of some guy pointing a gun. Their EPG just says "DTV Program" for everything, though.

Both of these stations came in handy during the World Cup last year. Their announcers sure do get excited when a goal is scored!

Channel 15 (14), KTFD, is one of the Spanish stations that I posted about a while back. I get a strong signal, it locks, but I only get a black screen - no picture, no sound. I also get a strong signal on channel 11 but it won't lock, probably due to incorrect PSIP info. You might want to try to receive channel 11. It's transmitter is near Ft. Collins.

6 days, 5 pages, wow! Looks like all of the negative energy has now been redirected from Deb and sCARE to the stations.

Anyone notice how poorly KMGH has been at switching to HD for Jeopardy and Wheel? (Or rather does anyone else besides me care? ;)) It's really annoying how it says "Jeopardy HD" in the bottom left corner of an SD picture. Sometimes they switch it over, sometimes they don't. Usually it's done by the time Wheel comes on.

Yeah, I've noticed the SD Jeopardy HD. I suppose we should count ourselves lucky that we get any syndicated HD - apparently the East and West coast stations don't have any HD timeshifting capability at all.

I've never expected anything other than amateur hour from KMGH anyway.

And just to balance out some of the negativity toward the stations, I (optimist that I am) believe they'll move with all possible speed to get the new tower operations ASAP. If for no other reason than to avoid the chance of another injunction being filed against them.

Did anyone watch the Avs game on KUSA this past weekend. I had signal dropouts several times and the PQ looked like upconverted SD. Is it possible NBC was using a combination of SD and HD cameras or are my eyes just getting too old?

The stations that are currently on RP should consider moving their existing DTV low-power transmitters from RP to the new tower as soon as it is built....Once the new tower and it's building is complete, perhaps KCNC and KTVD could go ahead and broadcast full-power, while KMGH and KUSA could share use of a UHF transmitter that is destined to be a "backup" transmitter for one of the other stations, but can be re-tuned to one of the existing UHF STA channels. They can then work on installing their permanent VHF transmitters.
A while back I had a conversation with one of the KTVD engineers. He talked about a possible tower(short) on RP, and using that location as a possible backup. When ya think about it, it makes pretty good sense. The equipment is already there, and it's in a different location. Which would be a good backup strategy.
....jc

Since I mentioned that about KMGH yesterday they got it switched perfectly last night. Coincidence? Probably. On a side note, Vanna actually looks closer to her age in HD.

Didn't watch the Avs game, but Heroes sure looked great last night on KUSA.

They've always been pretty strong for me, but something about their datastreeam confuses my LG4200A receiver. I get a program guide, but no video or audio. A different receiver (in my HTPC) has no problem.

On a slightly related topic, I noticed that KCEC-DT has finally started sending real audio and video again - for a long time they just had a freeze frame of some guy pointing a gun. Their EPG just says "DTV Program" for everything, though.

Both of these stations came in handy during the World Cup last year. Their announcers sure do get excited when a goal is scored!

I checked out Channel 15 on my LG LST4200A last night and I get the same thing that you do (i.e., strong signal with no audio or video). On my Dish 811 I'm still getting good audio and video with signal strength in around 73 %. Back in December, I had very low signal strength and no lock for Channel 15 on both receivers, so something changed and obviously something is screwy with their transmission.

I no longer get a lockable signal for KCEC-DT on either of my receivers. I used to get a signal lock in the mid-60s with my Dish 811, but that was last summer.

Channel 15 (14), KTFD, is one of the Spanish stations that I posted about a while back. I get a strong signal, it locks, but I only get a black screen - no picture, no sound. I also get a strong signal on channel 11 but it won't lock, probably due to incorrect PSIP info. You might want to try to receive channel 11. It's transmitter is near Ft. Collins.

What network or analog channel is Channel 11 associated with? It is in the wrong direction for either of my antennas, but if there is something to see, I may make an effort to try and pick it up.

Is Channel 43 doing any transmission testing (i.e., anybody pick up any signal from them)?

Since I mentioned that about KMGH yesterday they got it switched perfectly last night. Coincidence? Probably. On a side note, Vanna actually looks closer to her age in HD.

Didn't watch the Avs game, but Heroes sure looked great last night on KUSA.Damn right about Heroes. But Leno was in SD, at least through the monologue, so the switch gremlin moved to a different station yesterday.

What network or analog channel is Channel 11 associated with? It is in the wrong direction for either of my antennas, but if there is something to see, I may make an effort to try and pick it up.

On my Accurian, I get a picture, no sound, and it immediately freezes. (I can't get a lock on any of my other 3 receivers.) I seem to recall one of those Spanish network translucent logos on the screen. I believe it also has subchannels and that it doesn't do any HD. Its call sign is KDEV and its analog counterpart, an LP in Aurora which I don't believe does any Spanish programming, is on channel 39. The LP used to run old shows, like the Rifleman, Lassie, etc. but I haven't checked on them lately.

Is Channel 43 doing any transmission testing (i.e., anybody pick up any signal from them)?

I did a channel scan a couple of days ago and did not notice anything on 43.

But Leno was in SD, at least through the monologue

Leno was in SD at least past 11:00, when Cosby came on and I shut if off.

Leno was in SD at least past 11:00, when Cosby came on and I shut if off.The latter part of the Cosby interview was in HD, so we got to see Mary Lynn Rajskub in HD as well. :D

Hi everyone, can anybody give a recommendation on a good outdoor antenna for OTA HD reception? I currently have a pair of rabit ears connected to HLS6187W and am only able to get the CW and FOX HD and want to get the ABC, NBC and CBS stations as well.
I live in around the corner of 128th Avenue and Washington in Thornton and antennaweb lists that I am about 13 miles from those towers. I want to know if anybody lives close to this area and has a working setup that I can emulate :)

Thanks!

How did we miss this comment to a letter in the Rocky? It's great.

http://blogs.rockymountainnews.com/denver/letters/2007/01/tv_tower_1.html#comments

RJVR23 - Although I do not live in your area, everyone (including myself) that I have recommended the Winegard Prostar Model PR-4400 has had excellent luck with it. I used to have a Channel Master 4228 which was also an excellent performer but quite a bit larger.

How did we miss this comment to a letter in the Rocky? It's great.

http://blogs.rockymountainnews.com/denver/letters/2007/01/tv_tower_1.html#comments
:D :D :D

I missed it because I don't get the Rocky. Thanks for the post, Ernie. I guess we have been skewered by our own sword, the author is right, it is obvious the high levels of radiation have an effect on mental health, rational reasoning powers and overall sanity. We all stand corrected.

A while back I had a conversation with one of the KTVD engineers. He talked about a possible tower(short) on RP, and using that location as a possible backup. When ya think about it, it makes pretty good sense. The equipment is already there, and it's in a different location. Which would be a good backup strategy.
....jc

Will they really have a backup/DR site? What equipment would they have to duplicate?

Will they really have a backupI believe they will have their old RP LP transmitters/antennas on the LCG tower site as backup.

I believe they will have their old RP LP transmitters/antennas on the LCG tower site as backup.
That would be my guess too. I can't see them paying rent, electricity, etc. to maintain the RB site when the gear could simply go to Lookout Mt. and be used to swap out defective gear. Especially since they could never crank up the power enough on the RP to equal Lookout. A transmitter failure on Lookout would mean cutting off the usual suspects (Greeley, Ft. Collins, Castle Rock etc.) for the entire repair time with the RP backup. For most failure modes, swapping out gear on Lookout makes a lot more sense.

Hi everyone, can anybody give a recommendation on a good outdoor antenna for OTA HD reception? I currently have a pair of rabit ears connected to HLS6187W and am only able to get the CW and FOX HD and want to get the ABC, NBC and CBS stations as well.
I live in around the corner of 128th Avenue and Washington in Thornton and antennaweb lists that I am about 13 miles from those towers. I want to know if anybody lives close to this area and has a working setup that I can emulate :)

Thanks!

The two stations that you are receiving are located on Lookout Mtn. and the rest of the major networks are temporarily located on top of the Republic Plaza building downtown. You may have better success if you orient your antenna toward Republic Plaza because FOX and Cw are sending a stonger signal from Lookout. Check out Ernie's (santellavision) Denver DTV site for more info.

http://www.santellaproductions.com/dtv/denverdtv.htm

Has this been discussed already? 9news HDTV promo (http://www.9news.com/company/promo/hdtv/)
I wonder how many people will be turned off by the size of the antenna Koebrich uses inside the station.

Has this been discussed already? 9news HDTV promo (http://www.9news.com/company/promo/hdtv/)
I wonder how many people will be turned off by the size of the antenna Koebrich uses inside the station.
Looks small to me! :confused: Now, if he was struggling with a 15' Winegard 8200, that could be hilarious:

Folk's at home, PLEASE don't attempt this! You could Die!

I wish he would have said your HOA can't stop you, it's the law. So many people are flippin' afraid of their "HOA-nazi's".

I wish he would have said your HOA can't stop you, it's the law. So many people are flippin' afraid of their "HOA-nazi's".
Or their Wife!

Welcome Brune Hilda. I understand that this is your 1st Domestic Violence class.

He tried to put that damn thing on our roof. I showed him!

I wish he would have said that you won't need an antenna this big, that a set top VHF/UHF antenna will be all that most metro area residents will need once the new tower on Lookout Mountain is operational.

No one thinks antenna any more. Everyone wants CNN, HBO, Discovery or whatever. You can't watch these with an antenna. So once you subscribe to satellite or cable, you want your locals that way too. DirecTV knows this. Why else would they spend a billion dollars on new MPEG4 satellites that deliver locals to cities that a served perfectly well by over the air broadcasting.

I wish I could receive HDTV over the air here in NE Pa.

--- CHAS

I wish I could receive HDTV over the air here in NE Pa.What's the story in NE Pa? Don't tell me sCARE's franchising? ;)

No Ernie, sCare doesn't have a chapter here. I'm in the Pocono Mountains of NE PA. I've been trying to receive TV since I moved here in 1980. I have an 18 inch DirecTV dish.

I'm 90 miles north of Philadelphia and 100 miles West of New York City. The DMA here is Scranton and that is shielded from me by high mountains (1800 feet is high here). For my exact location, AntennaWeb shows one digital station in NJ but I cannot receive it. Tried the translators in nearby Stroudsburg but can barely see them .. a true TV black hole.

When spring arrives, I'm calling the cable company. They have made major infrastructure changes and can sell me what I want. We actually could use some sCare here. The developers are stripping the area of its natural beauty but no one seems to CARE. (Hi Hi)

--- CHAS

What's the story in NE Pa? Don't tell me sCARE's franchising?

I understand the Erie PA stations are not making the transition to digital by thier own accord, not due to interference from sCARE-like nimby's. The PBS station, I believe, is full power digital, but the other network stations are not. It's a combination of ownership (Nexstar) and claimed economic hardship. I did read somewhere that one station, WSEE, stated that it will not make the transition to digital and will continue its analog broadcast after analog shutdown.

And Erie is just far enough away from Buffalo, Pittsburgh, and Cleveland/Youngstown/Akron, that those signals are out of reach.

Low-power heaven is better than no-power hell. Perhaps HIPAR can add to the above, since I don't know the very latest regarding that market.

Did you catch the blurb on the 9news page posted by gakon about the Lookout signal reaching Nebraska and Kansas? I wouldn't think OTA travels that far even if the transmitter is high, like on Lookout.

I guess I read NE as NW PA. Anyway, interesting situation in Erie PA anyway.

I guess I read NE as NW PA. Anyway, interesting situation in Erie PA anyway.

Erie is about as far from me as one can go and still be in PA. Anyway, I believe it's true that low power TV stations can continue transmitting NTSC.

Concerning the transmission range from lookout:

Lookout 7374 feet AMSL
Tower + 800 feet
----------
Antenna 8174
Denver - 5280
----------
2894 feet above service area (h)

Distance to horizon (mi) = 1.34 * sqrt(h) = 1.34 * 54.6 =

about 73 miles

Receiving antenna at 25 feet

Distance to Horizon = 1.34 * 5 = 6.7 miles

Total distance is about 80 miles


Perhaps a bit less since the prairie land east of Denver is falling off in altitude.
Anyway, its just an estimate.


--- CHAS

I did read somewhere that one station, WSEE, stated that it will not make the transition to digital and will continue its analog broadcast after analog shutdown.How will they do that, via cable?

The whole reason for the analog shutdown is that the government is going to sell off the NTSC frequencies for other uses. That means WSEE's analog broadcast license goes bye-bye.

Looks like KWGN-DT's still having issues; the first half of Gilmore Girls last night was in 4:3, and when they did switch to the HD feed, there were more than a few glitches.

I just don't understand why the CW still can't get this right; you still see all kinds of glitches in their network programming, even on their SD feed, that just don't seem to occur with other networks. (e.g. it's not just KWGN; the glitches seem to originate at the head end as I've seen them occur on WPIX and KTLA as well.)

Did anybody else watch 'Bones' on Fox tonight? Throughout the last half of the show, they kept cutting from HD to SD to run an insipid crawl at the bottom promoting some web thing about American Idol.

Talk about taking you completely out of the show. (And it was one of the most intense Bones episodes ever - very Silence of the Lambs)

Unacceptable!

If any of you are interested in how bad the Erie PA DTV situation is compared to what we've endured in Denver, check out this blog:
http://eriemediablog.com/

On the right side of the page, click on HDTV. Apparently, only the PBS station, WQLN, can pass HD. The other three network stations, WICU, WJET, and WSEE, are all low power and cannot pass HD, even from network feeds.

I don't follow local situations all over the country, but I grew up in western NY state so I follow what's going on in Buffalo, Erie, and Toronto.

Did anybody else watch 'Bones' on Fox tonight? Throughout the last half of the show, they kept cutting from HD to SD to run an insipid crawl at the bottom promoting some web thing about American Idol.

Talk about taking you completely out of the show. (And it was one of the most intense Bones episodes ever - very Silence of the Lambs)

Unacceptable!

I saw that. :confused:

If I was the producer of Bones, I'd be in someones office at Fox first thing tomorrow morning raising holy hell.

...... I grew up in western NY state so I follow what's going on in Buffalo, Erie, and Toronto.Good place to be from huh ..... err....wait..... :)

Did anybody else watch 'Bones' on Fox tonight? Throughout the last half of the show, they kept cutting from HD to SD to run an insipid crawl at the bottom promoting some web thing about American Idol.

Talk about taking you completely out of the show. (And it was one of the most intense Bones episodes ever - very Silence of the Lambs)

Unacceptable!

The whole on-air promotion thing has gotten out of hand. It is as if whatever you are currently watching isn't as good or important as the coming program they want to promote. TNTHD is the worst with their race car pit crew and flashlight flashing Closer. Somewhere along the line the networks decided that since the viewers didn't mind a scores crawl at the bottom of their game broadcast or a news crawl at the bottom of their newscast, they wouldn't mind having any of their viewing interrupted by some important (to the networks) message.

I don't see a way to make them stop and I can only see the situation continuing to deteriorate. It does make DVDs more attractive.

I know its OT, but I sure agree. I am sick of all the adds scrolled during shows and games. It is really most annoying for me during a hockey game when they show advertising characters on the bottom of the screen that half the time cover up the player or players with the puck. I think we are condemned to watch this from now on. You are right, at least movies you can go to the DVD and skip the show, but with live sports, the options are limited, watch or don't watch.

Can't say I have seen many issues on switching HD/SD, but I don't watch very much network (Heroes, Smallville, & Friday Night Lights are about it this year). I haven't seen too many issues on those shows, so maybe I am lucky.

I totally agree. It's gotten out-of-control with the animated graphical teasers. Logos are bad enough and they are never going away. That was started by networks who didn't want their footage stolen and used for free, not for promotion. Now, its both. And yeah, TNT is the worst!!!

It's just on the Fox thing, it wasn't the network, it was KDVR harshly dropping from HD to SD to insert it. Total BS!

In this age of TiVo and other DVR's, where people regularly skip commercials, I think we should expect to see more of this.

Just wait till Google figures out how to insert targeted ads in the scroll bar into digital TV. "Adsense for Broadcasters" will shoot their valuation up over $500B But don't worry, we'll eventually become ad-blind, just like we are now with web pages. Of course, then they'll figure something else out. :)

Oh, it happening. On Dish, during certain commercials, they have this box that pops up and says click the info button on your remote to learn more about this ad. Oh yeah, it's gonna' get even worse.

Oh, it happening. On Dish, during certain commercials, they have this box that pops up and says click the info button on your remote to learn more about this ad. Oh yeah, it's gonna' get even worse.

Comcast just added 'commercials' at the bottom of their guide and when you're scrolling down it actually scrolls to it like it were a channel so each section (6 maybe) that you scroll down you have to scroll through an ad instead of all channels. I was pretty upset by this. It was almost as bad as the onslaught of messages I get telling me to buy the HD package at a discount rate or buy the HBO package at a discount rate. Man, when you pay the kind of money I do the least they should do is note that you've already purchased ALL of those and not send you messages bi-weekly asking you to subscribe. VERY disorganized and unprofessional.

In this age of TiVo and other DVR's, where people regularly skip commercials, I think we should expect to see more of this................ :)

You hit the nail on the head. The reason we see all of this and will see more is the fact that so many people now DVR the shows to watch later when they can skip the commercials. It also has the added benefit of encouraging you to buy the DVD version of the show at a later date so you can see it 'the way it was meant to be seen', or the way they should have shown it in the first place.

Yea Ernie

Put me down for 8/7/08. My birthday. ;)

PAW,

You're down. Damn, I have to keep this list for 2 years or 742 days until Analog shut-off - aaaaaah!

PAW,

You're down. Damn, I have to keep this list for 2 years or 742 days until Analog shut-off - aaaaaah!
So you SERIOUSLY think we will have a winner by then????
:eek:

So you SERIOUSLY think we will have a winner by then????
:eek:
It's dragged on so long that none of us are "winners"

PAW,

You're down. Damn, I have to keep this list for 2 years or 742 days until Analog shut-off - aaaaaah!
:rolleyes:
I really hate to be a killjoy, but it's 746 days. :o
....jc

Did anybody else watch 'Bones' on Fox tonight? Throughout the last half of the show, they kept cutting from HD to SD to run an insipid crawl at the bottom promoting some web thing about American Idol.

Talk about taking you completely out of the show. (And it was one of the most intense Bones episodes ever - very Silence of the Lambs)

Unacceptable!

Absolutely agreed. That was the most piss-poor reason I've ever seen to cut away from HD. Oh, we need to run a crawl in the space reserved for emergency announcements to inform you that we will have our chat room open during American Idol.

Not only unacceptable...Unf*ckingAcceptable!

Oooops, I stuck in the the wrong date by mistake. (It's now 746, must be a leap year thing) Check here again with the new date programmed in. (This based on it being midnight on Feb 17.)

http://www.santellaproductions.com/dtv/Onairdate.htm

My contact at Jeffco sent me this.

The Jefferson County Board of Commissioners will hold a special meeting Monday afternoon to discuss a potential solution with the Lake Cedar Group regarding digital television towers on Lookout Mountain.

The federal government recently passed legislation that allows Lake Cedar, a group of Denver television stations, to build high definition television towers on Lookout Mountain, where the stations currently broadcast their television signals. The new federal law may preempt certain county government land use and zoning authority in this instance.

In light of the new legislation, Jefferson County is considering possible solutions with the Lake Cedar Group to ensure the health and safety of county residents.

The meeting will be held from 1:00 p.m. to 3:00 p.m. on Monday, February 5 in Hearing Room One of the Jefferson County Administration and Courts Facility, 100 Jefferson County Parkway, Golden. The meeting will open with a presentation of the proposed solution. Brief comments from the public are welcome but must be specific to the proposed solution.

This meeting may be cancelled if a potentially acceptable solution is not proposed prior to the meeting. Please check the county’s Web site, www.jeffco.us, for last minute information.

Additionally, the Board of County Commissioners is scheduling a meeting on the rezoning issue for early March at the latest.

Just thought you guys would like to know....

-Wabisabi

....................The meeting will open with a presentation of the proposed solution............This meeting may be cancelled if a potentially acceptable solution is not proposed prior to the meeting.
wabisabi
Thanks for the information, it is very valuable as are all of your posts.


Just curious as to who they assume will make the proposal, Jeffco, or the LCG. Since the LCG is in the drivers seat, I wonder why they would propose anything unless it is to change their previously 'approved' tower to add channel 6 or others to the new tower. I don't see the LCG proposing many changes since they would have to go back for FCC approval again. As far as Jeffco goes, it is not clear to me what they could propose other than what the LCG has presented. It would seem the LCG would be under no obligation to consider any other proposal.

I'm not surprised. As we all know, the county is screwed and this is a nice easy way for them to save some political face. They hold a public meeting, discuss the new tower, listen to a couple of whining sCARE followers, and say they did something. Maybe both sides even present some give and take so they both look like they compromised. But in the end, LCG gets what they want and the commissioners know it.

Edit: I like the way the Commish's announced this (cough) "Special meeting" on their website Friday for Monday! Would that be considered as sCARE boasts... "Under the Cover of Darkness" ;)

http://co.jefferson.co.us/bcc/agenda.htm

..........
Edit: I like the way the Commish's announced this (cough) "Special meeting" on their website Friday for Monday! Would that be considered as sCARE boasts... "Under the Cover of Darkness" ;)

http://co.jefferson.co.us/bcc/agenda.htm

Not just hiding it on any weekend, it is under cover of the Super Bowl weekend just to provide even more distraction. I assume (S)CARE will take them to court to delay the meeting six months to a year and a half until they can come prepared. With any luck, construction would be well underway by that time.
:)

Just curious as to who they assume will make the proposal, Jeffco, or the LCG. Since the LCG is in the drivers seat, I wonder why they would propose anything unless it is to change their previously 'approved' tower to add channel 6 or others to the new tower. I don't see the LCG proposing many changes since they would have to go back for FCC approval again. As far as Jeffco goes, it is not clear to me what they could propose other than what the LCG has presented. It would seem the LCG would be under no obligation to consider any other proposal.
I suspect if LCG and BCC agree on something, the BCC has their vote, it goes back to Judge Jackson who dismisses the Golden/(s)CARE case based on that. Then Deb files a Notice of Appeal within 40 days, and so on and so forth. Without an injunction from the trial court, however, construction can proceed. Otherwise the legal case proceeds in US District Court.

I'm not surprised. As we all know, the county is screwed and this is a nice easy way for them to save some political face.Indeed, I've been predicting as much ever since S.4092 passed. And I won't be surprised if LCG adds some spoonful of sugar to help the medicine go down, even though they aren't obligated to do so.

And as HDJello noted, at that point Judge Jackson either dismissed based on the new vote or dismissed based on the LCG motion (which Jeffco no longer bothers to contest). Once construction starts in earnest the game is REALLY over - no court is going to make them tear it down.

Edit: I like the way the Commish's announced this (cough) "Special meeting" on their website Friday for Monday! Would that be considered as sCARE boasts... "Under the Cover of Darkness" ;)
under cover of the Super Bowl weekend just to provide even more distraction

That's exactly what I was thinking as well. :D Will the Mayor of Golden also find this reprehensible? ;)

I thought this sentence was interesting:

The new federal law MAY preempt certain county government land use and zoning authority in this instance

May? I thought it pretty much stomped them.

I'm thinking we should show up in force wearing t-shirts that say "Waa Waa Waa" on the front and "Nyah Nyah Nyah" on the back! *

* = Please don't interpret this as seeming somewhat vindictive or vengeful, instead it should be interpreted as being entirely vindictive and vengeful! :)

Is it just me or is everyone experiencing a very slow AVSForum with server timeouts today?
Maybe AVS and all of us DTV geeks are finally mainstream and every 'Joe Sixpack" is out there scrambling to figure out how to get the game in HD Sunday.

Does this mean we are trendsetters? I think that sounds far cooler than "early-adopters". ;)

Is it just me or is everyone experiencing a very slow AVSForum with server timeouts today? I've been seeing the same thing, so I assume the problem is on their end. This seems to have been happening more often over the past few months than before, probably due to the explosion of interest in HD. I just hope the site owners are making lots of money off their ads so they can keep up with the demands on their server and bandwidth.

Not a moan or whine on any of the Anti-tower websites as of yet. They used to be right on top of current events... not anymore.

Indeed, I've been predicting as much ever since S.4092 passed. And I won't be surprised if LCG adds some spoonful of sugar to help the medicine go down, even though they aren't obligated to do so.

And as HDJello noted, at that point Judge Jackson either dismissed based on the new vote or dismissed based on the LCG motion (which Jeffco no longer bothers to contest). Once construction starts in earnest the game is REALLY over - no court is going to make them tear it down.

Judge Jackson needs to address the motion. Deny or accept the motion. It is that simple. We are at one month and counting with the motion in limbo. Also, it has been always ironic that Jeffco would make any attempt to contest a motion to dismiss a lawsuit in which they are co-defendants with LCG. Jeffco is not the plaintiff!

It is interesting that they are calling a meeting with all due haste for March (at the latest ha ha) to discuss the now irrelevant zoning issue. Amazing! Maybe it is a meeting to absorb all the (s)care anger over s.4092. The tower should be well under way by March. Hey BCC. The political games are over. Didn't you get the memo?

Don

Speaking of Super Bowl Weekend.
How many of you remember back to the first year the Super Bowl was on OTA here in Denver??? Remember all the posts we had to help (if memory serves correctly) KCNC (CBS) send their signal to KRMA's brand new HD OTA transmitter on the roof of the RP. I remember that morning when they first clicked on the signal about 3 hours before the game and those of us in the forum reported back to their engineers when we were able to pick up and lock on to their signal. Anyone remember what year that was?? 2001?? I think, but I wouldn't want to swear to that. Anyone with a better memory?? Ah those were the days! Just look how far we have come. There are now 5 low power stations on that building.
:(

Actually Jetlag, I don't think you can use the term 'early' adaptors having to do with anything relating to Denver HD OTA. I think more of the term used to describe the tail wagon that follows a bike race to pick up the last place cyclist if he falls...the 'Lanten Rouge' (apologies for my French spelling)

John,

My DTV timeline has KRMA going on-the-air approx May of 2000, so, it was most likely the Feb 2001 Bowl game.

John,

My DTV timeline has KRMA going on-the-air approx May of 2000, so, it was most likely the Feb 2001 Bowl game.
That's the way I remember it too. Those really were some fun days with the 'new' technology. I am curious how many of us were in the thread and remember that year?

BTW, the other thing I remember about that was that KRMA had to get special permission from the FCC to telecast a commercial broadcast (remember they are a PBS station). As I recall, they told us it was the first time in history that a public station was allowed to broadcast commercial television.

If you look at the FCC database for KRMA and click on the last application, dated 12-07-06 and scroll down to the last paragraph at the bottom of page 2, the second sentence in that paragraph seems to indicate that KRMA had a digital signal up and running in 1999. If that's the case, then maybe the first Super Bowl in HD in Denver via KRMA was in 2000?

You hit the nail on the head. The reason we see all of this and will see more is the fact that so many people now DVR the shows to watch later when they can skip the commercials. It also has the added benefit of encouraging you to buy the DVD version of the show at a later date so you can see it 'the way it was meant to be seen', or the way they should have shown it in the first place.

At the same time, cable and satellite Co.'s are pushing the DVR's, then pushing content out to the boxes and inserting ads to the guides and all. Like Martinko said, what’s driving the targeted adds are the very boxes that are enabling viewers to avoid them. So the incentive to make sure people see these adds is stronger and stronger, by putting ads in places viewers can't avoid them. What I've seen a lot of more recently are CW and MyNetwork affiliates running crawls at the bottom of the screen for, no credit, bad credit, repo, used car lot "sales" like it's some kind of once in a lifetime event they are holding. But you see it all the time, so far it's only been during syndicated programming and not during primetime network feeds. But their time and temp bug starts off with a "Churches" logo then flips over to their logo's time and temp. Like I need to know what time it is and the temperature at the station, well over a hundred miles away from where I live..

Just like the useless Dow Closing numbers they have sponsors on during the newscasts. Like it's some kind of useful service they are providing to the public, I think in this day and age of broadband I can find out how my stock is doing, verses the three or four indexes they show me giving only a rough idea of how the market fared that day. Totally useless, if I'm going to make changes I'm not consulting the TV station for the best info.

The weather casts are almost becoming a moot point; I just consult one of the many sources on the internet before I leave for work in the morning, that's enough for me to make a decision. Plus whenever it snows 2 inches, even a dusting down here in New Mexico all the stations go crazy about weather coverage, like it's some kind of national emergency, with all the live reports telling you had bad it is, and not to drive out to the highway like they did to setup the Live shot. With the same snow shots you always see, and the same interviews of people saying how much it has snowed and their going to pick up salt or a snow shovel. You could literally just run the same stuff from last times snow coverage and get the same results. Without the expense of sending out the reporters and equipment. This kind of coverage is only valid in the case of an honest blizzard and situation where the public safety is concerned, and I'm sure the public officials will inform all the media when it's necessary to clear the roads, and shut down the city and services. Tell me something I don't already know about! Yeah it's snowing outside, I can see that from my window.

I was not in Colorado for the two large snow storms that happened at the end of the moth in December, I visited between snow storms and just barely missed the second one. I could see the importance of the broadcasters giving out critical info during those two events, but that is on going coverage, not some half hour newscast that finishes, and you won't see them tell the next cast. But I hear the broadcasters did a good job of giving out info, and accurate info too. I guess this became a rant about the current state of the broadcast industry.

Oooops, I stuck in the the wrong date by mistake. (It's now 746, must be a leap year thing) Check here again with the new date programmed in. (This based on it being midnight on Feb 17.)

http://www.santellaproductions.com/dtv/Onairdate.htm
Hey Ernie---my up & running date was 11/21/09, not ''08. I'm the pessimist. I anticipate Global Falling will occur (global warming causes tower falling) and the project will be 'way late.

Incidentally, the weather has wreaked havoc up here. My old D* dish/LNB froze up Thurs. overnight (-12), and finally restarted Fri after the sun hit it. And this wind keeps blowing my OTA antenna towards La Junta! I may have trouble getting HD during the game if it doesn't calm down.

Judge Jackson needs to address the motion. Deny or accept the motion. It is that simple. We are at one month and counting with the motion in limbo. Also, it has been always ironic that Jeffco would make any attempt to contest a motion to dismiss a lawsuit in which they are co-defendants with LCG. Jeffco is not the plaintiff!

It is interesting that they are calling a meeting with all due haste for March (at the latest ha ha) to discuss the now irrelevant zoning issue. Amazing! Maybe it is a meeting to absorb all the (s)care anger over s.4092. The tower should be well under way by March. Hey BCC. The political games are over. Didn't you get the memo?

Don

I'm still of suspicious mind on this... as they say, you can attract bees with honey. Is there no risk that LCG's participation sets a precident that gives the reins back to local control? Won't that go back to JJ to not only re-inforce the injunction, but to, in effect, state that the feds should stay out of this since LCG shows intent to work with the locals? I can't help but to see this as unwise, as any words spoken by LCG are likely to be taken out of context and made part of future testimony. I guess I'm always the pessimist when it comes to sCARE. I don't trust anyone that would be so quick to sell their integrity to gain office by appeasing a biased local group.

Scott,
I fixed your date in the pool. You are pessimistic! And you're not the only one with Dish weather issues, check this out. I had a huge chunk of ice fall off the roof and take out my Dish and air-conditioner.

http://www.santellaproductions.com/dtv/damage1.jpghttp://www.santellaproductions.com/dtv/damage2.jpg

I had a huge chunk of ice fall off the roof and take out my Dish and air-conditioner.


Ernie sorry for your misfortune. Another reason for OTA.

If you look at the FCC database for KRMA and click on the last application, dated 12-07-06 and scroll down to the last paragraph at the bottom of page 2, the second sentence in that paragraph seems to indicate that KRMA had a digital signal up and running in 1999. If that's the case, then maybe the first Super Bowl in HD in Denver via KRMA was in 2000?

No, I am 90% sure it was 2001, either that or 2002. I got my first HD RPTV in Jan. of 2000 just before that Super Bowl. I do know the only HD I had for the first six months or so was off of C-Band with the 4DTV HD decoder and a Unity Motion HD DVB. I am pretty sure that first year the Super Bowl was on ABC HD, which might have been available from the KMGH parking lot, but not from my place. That may have actually been the first OTA SB HD telecast in Denver, since I couldn't get KMGH, I don't recall when they went on the air, but it was early on. That was long before they moved to the RP, while they were using the coat hanger on the roof approach. ABC, CBS and PBS HD were only available on my C-Band dish until the RP antennas went up. I am pretty sure based upon recollection and Ernies comments that it was 2001 for the CBS/KRMA feed, but now that you mention it, that may not have actually been the first OTA HD SB here in Denver. I know there were some others on this thread who were on at the time who should also be able to firm things up. I was hoping to stir up a few reminiscences of the early days after JetLag's comment about early adaptors. The day of the CBS/KRMA telecast the KRMA engineers were on the thread taking reports as people were able to lock in from around town. Maybe if I wasn't so lazy I could go back in the thread and check, but I thought there were a few 'old timers' who would remember.


Ernie—Sorry to see what happened to your dish and AC, just in time for the SB. I sure hope you have other options for tomorrow. At least you won't need the AC for a while. A definite bummer for sure!

BTW, before you throw in the towel with your old dish, you might check, at that angle you may have access to the BBC Channel 1 from a European satellite.
:D

BTW, before you throw in the towel with your old dish, you might check, at that angle you may have access to the BBC Channel 1 from a European satellite.Funny guy! I do get some weird Brazillian Ping-pong though. ;) I can get OTA up here.

Funny guy! I do get some weird Brazillian Ping-pong though. ;) ..........
That sounds waaaay better than the Super Bowl.........
:D

Actually, I was pretty sure you got OTA at your place unless that antenna was blown down by the wind today.

Scott,
I fixed your date in the pool. You are pessimistic! And you're not the only one with Dish weather issues, check this out. I had a huge chunk of ice fall off the roof and take out my Dish and air-conditioner.


Now you see why big towers (and many small ones) use "ice shields" over their important equipment and walkways :) .

Still, no mention on the sCARE website. They must either be snowed-in or sippin' Margs at CaboWabo.

I'm off tomorrow, so I might just mosey on down to the TAJ and see what happens. I think its just going to be a Commissioner dog-and-pony show to be able to say we did take public input. I bet not many show. Anybody up for a good laugh?

Still, no mention on the sCARE website. ................... I think its just going to be a Commissioner dog-and-pony show to be able to say we did take public input. I bet not many show..............

I suspect you are correct. Other than Deb and perhaps Al who still think of this issue as the monthly paycheck (I assume Deb is not working pro bono on all this, I would be glad to hear I am wrong) I think most of the people are smart enough to see the handwriting on the wall (or in this case the stone tablets coming down from the mountaintop). This one is over. The Commissioners simply want to provide themselves political cover, and this final formality should do it. Have fun at the 'show'.

Guys,

John, as always, is right, KMGH had the first broadcast Super Bowl telecast in Denver.

It has been so long ago now that I may not have this part right, but I believe it was the St Louis Rams Super Bowl with Kurt Warner. I was able to get it locally OTA via a brand spanking new RCA DTC-100 and had some friends over to see it ( don't tell the NFL ). ABC was broadcasting Monday Night Football in HD that year, as an experiment, I believe. The next year, ABC stopped broadcasting Monday Night Football in HD. I think that CBS had the Super Bowl the following year and it was in HD also. Then Fox in their 480P Crap-o-vision the next, etc. and on and on.....

Jeff

Guys,

John, as always, is right, KMGH had the first broadcast Super Bowl telecast in Denver.

It has been so long ago now that I may not have this part right, but I believe it was the St Louis Rams Super Bowl with Kurt Warner. I was able to get it locally OTA via a brand spanking new RCA DTC-100 and had some friends over to see it ( don't tell the NFL ). ABC was broadcasting Monday Night Football in HD that year, as an experiment, I believe. The next year, ABC stopped broadcasting Monday Night Football in HD. I think that CBS had the Super Bowl the following year and it was in HD also. Then Fox in their 480P Crap-o-vision the next, etc. and on and on.....

Jeff
Thanks for the reminder/confimation. You are right, ABC did do MNF in 1999, since I had the C-Band dish and a receiver which could pick up the affiliate feed, I was motivated to buy the HD set. The next year, 2000, ABC much to my dismay, dropped the HD MNF telecast for a season, and then CBS did the SB. Those long dead memory cells are starting to revive. I also remember the Faux 480p Crap-o-vision telecast. What a disaster that was. We've come a long way over the years. Now you can be almost 10 miles from the transmitter and have a shot at getting the game in HD. At least thanks to D* and E* and Comcast, this year many more have access to the HD version. Of course, no thanks to the LCG and KCNC.

Scott,
I fixed your date in the pool. You are pessimistic! And you're not the only one with Dish weather issues, check this out. I had a huge chunk of ice fall off the roof and take out my Dish and air-conditioner.

[
Jeepers Ernie - sorry about that. Homeowners should cover it right?

This was a pretty good SB(especially if you were rooting for Indy).

However, I think that CBS blew it. Considering that this game is the highest viewership live televised sporting event, why didn't CBS clean the camera lenses during commercials? The raindrops weren't a big deal, but the continued blurry pictures were pathetic!

Da Bears
R.I.P.
....jc

I agree, CBS blew it big time. They should have had a backup weather plan. Least of which, they should of had interns standing by the cameras with umbrellas or foamcore cards over the top of the up cameras and then have someone wiping the lens at least in commercials, if not between shots.

Pathethic!

Anybody have reception problems? 4 is always a little weak where I am but it seemed worse today. Fortunately I could switch to my backup down here, KKTV-11

I agree, CBS blew it big time. They should have had a backup weather plan. Least of which, they should of had interns standing by the cameras with umbrellas or foamcore cards over the top of the up cameras and then have someone wiping the lens at least in commercials, if not between shots.

Pathethic!

Absolutely ridiculous. Not to mention the audio issues and all of the other stupid things that shouldn't happen especially during the Super Bowl.

why didn't CBS clean the camera lenses during commercials?[/b] The raindrops weren't a big deal, but the continued blurry pictures were pathetic!


I Agree,
We were at a gathering where it was many of there first experience with HD. I can understand a drop or a few here and there but the entire game, Give me a break.

I Agree,
We were at a gathering where it was many of there first experience with HD. I can understand a drop or a few here and there but the entire game, Give me a break.

I honestly felt that there were a few instances where they actually attempted to make the lenses seem more rainy then they were for effect. There was one instance when they returned from the half time show where the camera that was field level had panned and I'm not sure how to explain it but the droplets on the lens did NOT look random and rain-like as the rest of the cameras did. It looks like someone used a small spray bottle to spray the lens as the droplets were all VERY fine and substantially smaller than the rain drops in view of the others.

I even joked that my buddy just bought a 20yr old used car that was $800 that had two working windshield wipers and these $9k cameras were HD and the latest cutting edge technology and they could affix a single wiper to them.

If CBS tried to create an effect by making the lenses more rainy, I'm not sure what they were attempting to accomplish, but in my opinion they certainly failed. I want a clear picture, and either artificially clouding cameras with water or not wiping water off the cameras was a special effect I can live without. At times, I thought I was watching the game on the KUSA Eisenhower Tunnel camera during a storm.

The sound on KCNC stuttered on many of the commercials, I suspect due to CBS's inability to get the 5.1 sound right. It was so bad, I switched to KWGN out of Cheyenne, who doesn't pass 5.1 sound.

I honestly felt that there were a few instances where they actually attempted to make the lenses seem more rainy then they were for effect. There was one instance when they returned from the half time show where the camera that was field level had panned and I'm not sure how to explain it but the droplets on the lens did NOT look random and rain-like as the rest of the cameras did. It looks like someone used a small spray bottle to spray the lens as the droplets were all VERY fine and substantially smaller than the rain drops in view of the others.
Just guessing, but maybe the variations in how visible the droplets were depended on camera focus?

The sound on KCNC stuttered on many of the commercials, I suspect due to CBS's inability to get the 5.1 sound right. It was so bad, I switched to KWGN out of Cheyenne, who doesn't pass 5.1 sound.

I think that was a KCNC issue, I was watching KKTV from the Springs and they do pass 5.1 and had no audio problems.

Just guessing, but maybe the variations in how visible the droplets were depended on camera focus?Exactly. The lens's focal length changes the spots size. I'm sure they didn't add to the mess. I shoot in bad weather all the time and have to deal with this. There is no reason the up cameras had rain on their lens, none. It's the freakin' SuperBowl, they should have had build a cover over the cameras. Even with wind, it should have been big enough to anticipate that.

The field cameras are a different story and it's very hard to protect them. I have a Matte-Box on my camera and it has a large 'eyebrow' that does protect the glass from rain pretty well. you can see it in my small Avatar pic as well as this...

http://www.16x9inc.com/images/products/chrosziel/840-01/AC-840-01.jpg

I didn't notice any audio issue other than KCNC is noticeably louder than my other OTA stations. Anyone else experiencing this? I did flip channels during the commercials so I may have missed what audio problems others had but during the game I didn't have any problems. I do think the rain droplets on the cameras is a shame.

Well on camcast in Loveland the audio from kcnc was in stereo only yet on the Direct TV from LA the sound 5.1 was just fine.......good old KCNC.........yep I tried OTA and well too broken to receive that day (usually my first choice..all about the bandwidth)

Yep, KCNC is louder for me as well. Since I am now sure this isn't just a problem on my end, we should contact them and see if they can fix this.

I didn't notice any audio issue other than KCNC is noticeably louder than my other OTA stations. Anyone else experiencing this? I did flip channels during the commercials so I may have missed what audio problems others had but during the game I didn't have any problems. I do think the rain droplets on the cameras is a shame.

I, too, remember that first SB in HD that our friends at Channel Six helped us get. It was like heaven and earth had been moved, but there it was.

Impressed my wife and friends!

I also noticed that KCNC is louder.

Speaking of HD audio, anyone else notice that the volume levels of the commercials seems way too loud? All stations probably crank up the volume a bit for them, but it seems worse on the HD stations. KUSA in particular seems to blast them.

I sent an email to KCNC about their OTA HD being louder since I'm not the only one who has noticed this issue. I asked if their was a standard. Does anyone here know if a standard on volume exists for OTA HD broadcasts? Thanks

Did anybody try to watch the Criminal Minds show after the SB? It started fine with a clever pre-recorded transition with Phil Simms talking about turnovers!

Anyway, at the 30 minute point in the program, KCNC came back with a "special" news broadcast that preceecded their 10 PM news. My wife kept thinking we must have done something wrong with the Tivo, but we were watching live. We missed the last half of the program. Are we nuts or is that what KCNC actually did?

Have any of you ever had an out-of-body experience? Well, that is what the JeffCo hearing was today. It was nothing but a surreal, dog-and-pony show for the Commissioners. What's worse, it was truly sad for the members of the community who showed up thinking this was serious.

Sad, because so many present thought this was for real. Most of sCARE, Al, Golden Mayor Baroch, and the poor residents certainly did. But, the Commissioners, LCG, and even Deb who didn't speak saw through this and knew what was really happening. It was just so the Commissioners could get on record that they did have a public meeting.

OK, wow for the details. First, the Jeffco head, legal beagle presents this huge "Settlement Agreement" that pretty much lets LCG do whatever they want, pretty much forever. (As we all know they can do that anyway by the new law) The community is stunned and outraged at not just this, but any agreement that they didn't have input on.

Then the Commissioners take public testimony and it gets ugly. Oh, there's a new sheriff in sCAREville, ur, president of sCARE. He pretty much b!tches out the commissioners that they weren't consulted at all. And my favorite line is, he thinks that LCG will sell space to Al Qaeda. Muuuuaaaaaaaah!!! RONFLMAO. He sounded serious too.

Then, the mayor of Golden gets up and does about the same thing, Says, he had no time to consult with council, and he’s going to go home right now and write a letter to Judge Jackson… Waaaaa, waaaaa, waaaaa. Then, lastly, he compares this to above ground Nuclear Testing and some more about how we’re all going to die.

Next, more civilians ranting about how could the Commissioners even entertain this settlement proposed by LCG. Wait! Hold the phone. Are you all sitting down...

The Legal guys interrupts and says this agreement was from him and Jeffco and not from LCG. Jeffco came up with this, as their legal staff sees no way to fight the Presidents law!!! They concede defeat and this is one quick way to end the battle.

The crowd goes nuts when they find out this lay-down agreement is not from LCG, but is from JeffCo to LCG and not the other way around!!! Commish Congrove then says, its not his doing (Had to save some face with the voters) and this agreement the best solution that the legal staff of JeffCo could come up with. Then, more hostile public testimony and why not Squaw mt. blah, blah, blah. At least the JeffCo legal beagle cut them off, as the testimony must be directly related to the proposed agreement.

Then, finally, the ranting finishes. Commish Hartman motions to a vote, Commish McCasky interrupts and comments to change the agreement, as he doesn't like it. So, they chat amongst themselves for a minute. Then they vote on this agreement, and all three vote no.

But wait, it gets better. Then McCasky wants them to vote on making this agreement not the new proposed one, but to just settle on approving the 2003, 3-0 Commissioners Approval of the LCGII application. They vote to present that to LCG.

McCasky: YES
Hartman: YES
Congrove: NO

So, in effect, they will present this agreement to LCG. Now, not that LCG has to accept this or any other "agreement" as they can do whatever the he!! they want per the President. But, at least, the best thing to come of this silly meeting was the admittance that JeffCo is screwed and are now the ones begging for crumbs.

Oh, of course, no doubt, sCARE will still play their silly games some more. It just makes it That much harder when the County is now for a settlement and the consolidation tower.

Then McCasky wants them to vote on making this agreement not the new proposed one, but to just settle on approving the 2003, 3-0 Commissioners Approval of the LCGII application. They vote to present that to LCG.Hmm. So can this vote be taken as a re-affirmation of their 2003 decision and thus yet another grounds on which Judge Jackson should lift his injunction?

Next, more civilians ranting about how could the Commissioners even entertain this settlement proposed by LCG. Wait! Hold the phone. Are you all sitting down...

The Legal guys interrupts and says this agreement was from him and Jeffco and not from LCG. Jeffco came up with this, as their legal staff sees no way to fight the Presidents law!!! They concede defeat and this is one quick way to end the battle.

The crowd goes nuts when they find out this lay-down agreement is not from LCG, but is from JeffCo to LCG and not the other way around!!! Commish Congrove then says, its not his doing (Had to save some face with the voters) and this agreement the best solution that the legal staff of JeffCo could come up with.

Actually, he did not say that this agreement originated from Jeffco. He said that the legal staff and not the commissioners were working on the language. He said the agreement was from LCG, and the version presented today was the last, best and final settlement offer from LCG.

-Wabisabi

And my favorite line is, he thinks that LCG will sell space to Al Qaeda. Muuuuaaaaaaaah!!! RONFLMAO. He sounded serious too.
Ok, for levity, let's look at the history:
Dangerous radiation levels. But people living right there...
2 & 3 headed kids. But people living right there...
Falling towers. But people living right there...
Now Al Qaeda is going to establish a terror base on Lookout Mtn?

I don't know what you guys think, but there's something seriously wrong with the inhabitants of Golden. I don't know if it's the air, the water, radon gas, depleted ozone layer or what. But I do think that we should wall off the place, so whatever it is, doesn't infect the rest of Colorado!
....jc

Wabasibi is correct in that LCG gave them this proposal first, then the JeffCo lawyers discussed it, saw they had no other choice and other legal recourse, then presented it today. (Now, I am not sure if the JeffCo lawyers took it word for word or if they changed it?) Wabisabi might know more on that.

"And a good time was had by all"
:D

It sounds like a whole lot of folks who drank the (S)CARE Kool-Aid, now can't believe they have been totally overruled. Unfortunately, I suspect that many of those who really believed the (S)CARE story that their lives were in danger from the towers now, really are terrified that it might be true. This is what results from the (S)CARE distortions and lies over the previous years. It is too late now for the (S)CARE folks to just come out and say, 'we were lying to try to increase our property values'.

Did anybody try to watch the Criminal Minds show after the SB? It started fine with a clever pre-recorded transition with Phil Simms talking about turnovers!

Anyway, at the 30 minute point in the program, KCNC came back with a "special" news broadcast that preceecded their 10 PM news. My wife kept thinking we must have done something wrong with the Tivo, but we were watching live. We missed the last half of the program. Are we nuts or is that what KCNC actually did?
I had my Dish 622 setup to record Criminal Minds at 8:00. However suspecting that the game wouldn't be over at that time set the 622 to also record the 9:00 news special. The way it turned out the 1st half hour of Criminal Minds was recorded from 8:30 to 9:00 and 2nd half hour was recorded on the front end of the 9:00 news special.

"And a good time was had by all"
:D

It sounds like a whole lot of folks who drank the (S)CARE Kool-Aid, now can't believe they have been totally overruled. Unfortunately, I suspect that many of those who really believed the (S)CARE story that their lives were in danger from the towers now, really are terrified that it might be true. This is what results from the (S)CARE distortions and lies over the previous years. It is too late now for the (S)CARE folks to just come out and say, 'we were lying to try to increase our property values'....but how many of those "terrified" folks have For-Sale signs in their front yards?

I know this has probably been mentioned before but I do not recall: Have any of the Denver FM stations upgraded to FM-HD (or whatever they call it)? If so, any of them broadcasting from Lookout?

...but how many of those "terrified" folks have For-Sale signs in their front yards?You know what was really sad today, when I was walking out there was this really sweet old couple walking in front of me and they were saying it was so wonderful that the Commissioners denied the tower. They truly didn't understand what is happening. I felt so sorry for them. I was going to try to explain, but thought better not ruin the rest of their afternoon.

I know this has probably been mentioned before but I do not recall: Have any of the Denver FM stations upgraded to FM-HD (or whatever they call it)? If so, any of them broadcasting from Lookout?Several Denver-area stations now broadcast HD radio, both AM and FM stations, including:

AM

KOA (850)


FM

KWLI (92.5)
KTCL (93.3)
KPTT (95.7)
KBCO (97.3)
KQMT (99.5)
KIMN (100.3)
KOSI (101.1)
KRFX (103.5)
KXKL (105.1)
KALC (105.9)
KBPI (106.7)


I'm not sure how many are broadcast from Lookout, but at least a handful are.

KPOF - (910) has listed themselves as an HD station since Feb 2004 - but they do not broadcast from Lookout.

Thanks Kucharsk. So evidentally they were able to easily switch from analog to digital (I'm assuming HD radio is digital, but I know nothing about it) with no issues, but us DTV/HDTV viewers had to deal with sCARE all of these years? I wonder why Deb & Co didn't raise as big of a stink with them? They are responsible for most of the RF afterall AFAIK. :confused:

Very short story in the DP today.
http://www.denverpost.com/search/ci_5162488

RMN Story
http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/local/article/0,1299,DRMN_15_5331084,00.html

Two other things I forgot to mention that occured yesterday at the meeting were, JeffCo said the reason for this quick "Under-the-cover-of-darkness" meeting was Judge Jackson is going to rule on Monday 2/12/07. And I think we all know (including JeffCo) that he pretty much has to lift the stay of execution on the tower. That gives LCG free-reign to rock & roll.

The other thing was, JeffCo also admitted they asked JJ for two delays already and weren't going to get another. So, now we know they are the ones who've been mucking up JJ's ruling.

...the stay of execution on the tower
Great choice of words :D

The other thing was, JeffCo also admitted they asked JJ for two delays already and were's going to get another. So, now we know they are the ones who've been mucking up JJ's ruling.
Not quite following you here Ernie. Are they going to attempt to delay the scheduled 2/12 decision or something else?

Oh, and a very special return salutation of "fill in the blank, blankity blank" to sCARE and the JeffCo board. Congrove, you are the epitome of professionalism and decorum in an elected official, not!

Oh, and I think they may have misquoted Marv with this one "Rockford said radio waves don't produce radiation".

Not quite following you here Ernie. Are they going to attempt to delay the scheduled 2/12 decision or something else?JeffCo already has asked JJ for two delays. He wasn't going to give them another delay on his decision. This Monday is his decision. I'll be out-of-town next week on a HD shoot. If it's open to the public, maybe somebody can go and report back.

Ok, for levity, let's look at the history:
Dangerous radiation levels. But people living right there...
2 & 3 headed kids. But people living right there...
Falling towers. But people living right there...
Now Al Qaeda is going to establish a terror base on Lookout Mtn?

I don't know what you guys think, but there's something seriously wrong with the inhabitants of Golden. I don't know if it's the air, the water, radon gas, depleted ozone layer or what. But I do think that we should wall off the place, so whatever it is, doesn't infect the rest of Colorado!
....jc

Hmmm, maybe there are long term effects of the radiation level after all. I'd love to see them try that one. "It has been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that living with the increased radiation levels makes us paranoid raving lunatics" :D

I purchased a JVC KD-HDR1 radio for my car. I found 6 FM stations in the Denver area with HD and also find that 630 and 1340 are HD.

Jack is HD but for some reason I lose the HD signal and when I lose that, it just goes quiet until it comes back...no switching to analog. Annoying!

John

So is this what we are now looking at:

Judge Jackson finally tosses the injunction on the 12th allowing unfettered construction to begin <insert WooHoo! here>.

LCG leaves the old towers untouched (and even possibly unused after 2/09) until sCARE, JeffCo & Golden finally cease their legal wrangling. I believe this is referred to as a "burn"?

I'm assuming that construction will move along quickly since LCG hopefully has all of their construction & equipment bids finalized with contractors ready to begin. With having had this much time available to them I would expect that LCG has had ample time to shop for bids and get most every detail in order.

Agree? Of course we are talking about LCG here, so maybe their reaction might be "Bids? Hey, that would have been a great idea! We'll get right on that eventually".

Any pitfalls aside from unforseen attempted legal maneuvers that I am overlooking?

Finally, does anyone have a clue as to how long it takes to actually manufacture a tower structure of this size? Not including delivery and assembly time, rather how long it takes to manufacture the pieces?

I'm assuming that construction will move along quickly since LCG hopefully has all of their construction & equipment bids finalized with contractors ready to begin. With having had this much time available to them I would expect that LCG has had ample time to shop for bids and get most every detail in order.
Maybe - they've only had a month since S.4092.
And I expect their agreements and schedules still have contingency for further legal delays.

Well it sounds like some folks still believe they have a leg to stand on. I guess they aren't thinking clearly due to a lack of sleep caused by all the non-radiating radio and television waves.....:)

FWIW, I think Rockford was trying to say radio and television waves don't produce radiation as most people think of it ---- nuclear radiation. I mean after all if it produces radiation it must be radioactive - right ??? (NOT)

OTOH, from what I gathered from reading Ernie's report and the link to the RMN article if I were a JeffCo commissioner I too would have soundly rejected the proposed LCG settlement. LCG managed to get the zoning issues mitigated with S.4092 but they should not have free reign to do as they damn well please (and that's how I interpret the proposed settlement). Sounds to me like the LCG was trying to take advantage of the situation hoping everyone would knuckle under. Regardless if I read Ernie's report correctly the LCG2 project was once again reaffirmed by the Commissioners (with a 2-1 vote) so given that, and S.4092, JJ has no choice but to lift the current injunction. Here's hoping no one files another suit seeking an injunction on some other grounds. And in the end I think that is precisely what LCG fears and that is why they tried to get their proposed settlement approved.

When this is all done someone should make a movie of this mess.

Ooooh, that could be fun. Who should play the characters?

- Deb: Courtney Love
- Al: Christopher Lloyd
- Marv: Nicholas Cage
- Old Commissioners: The Three Stooges
- Current Commissioners: Dumb & Dumber's Jim Carrey & Jeff Daniels and Anna Nicole Smith (Not the hot part)
- Mayor Baroch: Wilford Brimley

I thought that they were going ahead with the LCG2 plans? :confused:

Have they made significant changes to that proposal? Has anyone read it or have any specifics regarding changes?

FWIW, when I was growing up in MN they were trying to construct a huge high tension power line. The locals fought it every step of the way (identical playbook to sCARE) including sneaking out at night and unbolting the finished towers from their bases. :eek: They made a movie out of it, no kidding. They never succeeded in toppling any of the towers that I am aware of though.

note to sCARE: Do not attempt to unbolt any towers! The falling tower would kill millions as it rocketed down the mountain, rolled across the plains and eventually took out all of Manhattan. Plus the resulting fires would envelop the earth in smoke, plunging us into nuclear winter. Oh the horror!

When this is all done someone should make a movie of this mess.

Hurry before its too late! Ending an 8 year record setting smash hit run!!!

"Groundhog Day"

I thought that they were going ahead with the LCG2 plans? :confused: With the recent President's blessing, they don't have to follow the LCGII plan. That's why Commish McCasky brought-up the vote for JeffCo to at least offer a bone to LCG to accept the old (approved 3x now) LCGII application and then drop all future protests.

If I was LCG, I'd say no "fill-in-the-blank" way. Remember, that application had a lot of expensive, good neighbor items in it. Like, paying for independent RF monitoring, having to still be regulated by zoning for any future changes, donating the old land to JeffCo etc. By accepting that, they would be stuck with it. Now, they aren't required to do any of that.

I agree Ernie.

My initial impression was that they were planning to adhere to the LCGII proposal. I'm assuming that the latest proposal no longer includes said "good neighbor" items. Perhaps this would explain the commisioners fury. Of course they know who to blame, just check any nearby reflective surface.

Yes, putting the new building, fuel tank, etc ON the mountain instead of INSIDE the mountain would be a huge expense and time saver. Also retaining the land for future tower construction would make good business sense. Perhaps I should revise my on-air date to much sooner?

BTW, I think you need a more coniving, unethical, conspiracy theorist-type to play Mayor Baroch. Perhaps someone (anyone?) from D.C.? :rolleyes: Just kidding! ;)

Boy I never realized Golden was such great "whine" country. Glad to see Deb, Al, and Comish Congrove have been able to maintain the 'high' road. Must be good stuff they are smoking.

I think the Commissioners simply refected the LCG proposal to fulfill their campaign promises that they will vote against any tower approvals, important if you might want to save face in the community. I think the language from Congrove is a reflection of his understanding that it really doesn't matter what they do at this point, they are powerless to stop any of the construction. It is funny that the LCG proposed leaving all the old towers in place until all lawsuits were settled. I guess the other good news is that after JJ takes away the injunction on Monday, construction can actually begin. Obviously Jeffco was stalling by asking for delays to see if their lawyers could find a loophole. It sounds like their answer was, "no, we can't find one". The only thing that could have made this solution any better for all of us is if it would have happened 5 years ago. This is fun to watch now!
:D

It is funny that the LCG proposed leaving all the old towers in place until all lawsuits were settled.This is very important. If JeffCo would have accepted the 'agreement' with the clause of leaving the old towers up until all litigation stops (that includes Golden and sCARE lawsuits) it would in effect get JeffCo to pressure Golden and sCARE to give up in defeat as the only way to get the old towers removed.

First they were selfish, and self delusional.

They they were stupid, using arguments that wouldn't pass the smell test.

Now they are just childish, stomping their feet at authority.

What's next? Rude hand gestures?


They lost, and they better take the best deal they can get, and quickly.

So what about those old towers. Even tho the Cry-Baby-Commissioners (CBC's) didn't sign anything that doesn't mean LCG has to remove any towers. I don't recall anything in S.4092 that forces LCG to remove towers. I say let 'em sit until the suits are done. That's expensive and they ought to leverage doing that against having to spend more money fending off assine lawsuits.

I like the 3 stooges for the current CBC's but you need to find the biggest Hollywood bitch to play the part of SCARE Attorney.

I don't recall anything in S.4092 that forces LCG to remove towers. Indeed S.4092 gives them an incentive to leave at least one of them up, since it states that any new tower has to be lower than the tallest EXISTING analog tower. No time limit on that provision that I saw.

You can find a pretty complete (not perfect) list of HD radio stations at www.hdradio.com/index.php. There are quite a few more than have been mentioned on the AM side but I don't know how many transmit from Lookout.

For the movie:
Deb - Meryl Streep
Mayor - Scooter Libby