I posted my principal questions on alt.video.dvdr about a week ago and got some good replies, but it now seems useful to edit down my questions based on the good input I’ve received and post them on the AV site. My apologies to those whose already seen my situation described on alt.video.dvdr.

I've used my DMR- E80H to copy my 1930s and 1940s (almost 100% black-and-white) VHS film collection to the Panny hard drive (deleting commercials, etc) at LP, and then dubbing at high speed two or three to each DVD on mostly 8X TDK DVD-R disks. The quality of these older films, their average lengths and my DVD storage space dictated the LP recording speed. I completed dubbing them all about two years ago, and started watching them (I did not watch them shortly after copying them because I was saving them for future viewing and to halt the expected deterioration of the VHS tapes).

I've found that several (close to half) of the DVDs I've attempted to watch
have tiling effects which in many cases have either made them unviewable
or brought the DVDs to an abrupt halt, often early in the films. (The E80 otherwise has functioned well in recording and playing back programs directly from the hard drive and playing commercial DVDs.)

I've often had up to a dozen and a half films accumulated on my hard drive,
and those have generally been new recordings directly from television (HBO,
TCM, etc) of contemporary films or programs (24, etc) which I've watched
soon after the recording, i.e., I really don't care to put them in a
permanent "collection". Perhaps as a result of this practice I've never
bothered to reformat the E80's hard drive. Could that be the dubbing problem?

Would I have better and more consistent positive results by dubbing at LP rather than high speed?

One of my friends who archives photos has recommended both Taiyo Yuden
and Mitsui (but his experience has been limited to CDs). I'm willing to invest the necessary time to recopy, edit and re-dub all these movies [more than a few of us collectors may be just a little crazy], and cost is not necessarily an object so I’d purchase better quality disks if that will make a difference. Any preference between these brands or negative experiences with either?

Some of the Taiyo Yuden discs I've seen advertised are 4X. I've not
downloaded Panasonic’s firmware that is said to make “newer” 8X and 16X DVD-Rs more palatable to the Panny, and feel no particular need to go to 8X as I've done before, given my unhappy results. I wonder if using Taiyo Yuden or Mitsui discs at 4X, together with dubbing in real time, might improve my chances of success with this project.

Would there be any additional benefit to copying the VHS tapes (I know video quality would not improve) at XP, and subsequently dubbing these recordings to DVD-R at LP? Is that even possible with the Panny E80?

Finally, I’m sorry for this extraordinarily long post.

It's unclear whether you got bad burns from the HDD to DVD, or if you are just experiencing playback problems.

If the discs can be read on a PC, you may want to copy them to new media and try playing that. And if they can be read that way, that helps rule out a bad burn, and removes any need to reburn them from the E80.

But if the disc can't be read on a PC, you either got a bad burn or the media has deteriorated (assuming your PC drive is okay). In the absence of being able to recover their contents, reburning from the E80 is the only option.

I doubt HDD fragmentation on the E80 has anything to do with this problem. If reburning is necessary, a High-Speed copy onto Taiyo-Yuden (4x is fine) ought to succeed, unless your burner is going bad.

Typically there are three possible reasons a burned disc isn't playing back right: problem with the burning drive, problem with the media, problem with the reading drive. Combinations also exist, such that some media is more/less compatible with some burners/readers. Sometimes you can only determine where the problem lies by trying different combinations of burner/media/reader and see what effect it has on the problem.

I also have an E80 without the firmware upgrade. I found tiling to be an occasional problem when dubbing to TDK 8x (I checked them right away after dubbing), so I stopped using them. I stocked up on 4x (TDK, Maxell, Taiyo Yuden) and they have been working well. Taiyo Yuden 8x has also worked well.

A high speed dub at the same speed gives better quality because there is no re-encoding.

John

John, and anybody else who'll participate:

I'm game to try the Taiyo Yuden disks. I suppose I could randomly copy four or five films from my VHS collection at LP and dub them at high speed, and watch them all. Maybe they could be films I'm not sure I really want to keep in the collection because I'm really resistant to viewing them in their entirety--but I have to--want to--watch them sometime. It's too bad there apparently is no software that could be used to detect tiling without viewing the films. I don't have a DVD burner so, while I can play DVDs on my computer, I have no way of manipulating them before they are finalized.

Here's a fairly naive question: Could I use some software to edit the DVDs in my computer and finalize them on the Panny DVDR?

It's too bad there apparently is no software that could be used to detect tiling without viewing the films.
As I mentioned, simply copying the disc to a PC will detect if there is a (hard) problem reading the disc. For detecting borderline problems, DVDInfo and/or CDSpeed can be used.
Could I use some software to edit the DVDs in my computer and finalize them on the Panny DVDR?
You could edit the contents of the (finalized!) disc once it's copied to your PC. But then you'd need to burn the result to a disc, which you can't do without a burner.

I own two E80's and an E55 and do lots of recordings from History Channel the HD HBO, Showtime, HDNet and others. The only time I experienced playback problems was with high-speed dubbing. A while back I disabled the high-speed dubbing so all recording are in real time. I have noticed no difference in recording quality and have eliminated playback problems. Now I do all the dubbings in real time and the DVD's play back perfectly on all my players, JVC, Panasonic, & Samsung. This simple change eliminated the freezing, tilting and other annoying problems I experienced with high speed dubbing.

I initially tried different types of blank DVD's without any success. DVD players are designed to playback commercial discs that are pressed, not burned. Some players are better than others at playing back non-commercial recordings. My Panasonic and JVC are excellent and have no problem playing dubs in real time. The Toshiba I own can only playback dubs in real time and locks up on high-speed dubs almost 100% of the time.

I also have an E80 without the firmware upgrade. I found tiling to be an occasional problem when dubbing to TDK 8x (I checked them right away after dubbing), so I stopped using them. I stocked up on 4x (TDK, Maxell, Taiyo Yuden) and they have been working well. Taiyo Yuden 8x has also worked well.

A high speed dub at the same speed gives better quality because there is no re-encoding.

John

John,

By "A high speed dub at the same speed gives better quality because there is no re-encoding.", don't you mean a real-time dub (i.e., a recording made on the E80's hard drive at LP, then dubbed to DVD-R at LP, not high-speed?

I've started to look for 4X Taiyo Yuden DVD-Rs on the internet after checking most of the office supply stores around town. There are many 8x for sale but few 4X, if any, available, except for something called "Value Line". Is this a lower-grade Taiyo Yuden disk?

Other then the usual--Amazon, BizRate, would anybody recommend internet reliable sources for the 4X disks?

Jim:

Recording to the HDD at any speed and then dubbing in real time at any speed involves a re-encoding which results in some loss of quality. Only by high-speed dubbing (which is always at the same speed as the original recording) do you get an exact copy with no loss of quality.

Taiyo Yuden Value Line discs don't meet the quality standards for their Premium discs, but are still better than most other brands. For the small difference in price, I would buy Premium 8x. They have been working fine on my E80. Here are the ones I buy:

http://www.supermediastore.com/taiyo-yuden-silver-thermal-8x-dvd-r-media.html

John

John,

I'm not sure why dubbing at "high speed" (which is attractive from the standpoint of only taking 45 to 50 minutes to dub a couple of movies with a total length of about three hours) would not require re-encoding, whereas to dub at LP a recording made on the HD at LP seems as close to replicating the recording conditions as possible, since it is not a change in "speed." Certainly when dubbing at FR to squeeze some additional material on a DVD-R it seems a re-encoding would be inevitable. This issue must be too technical for me to understand, but I'm curious.

Thanks for the tip for a vendor.

H-S dubbing involves a bit-for-bit digital copy of the original. Therefore it creates an exact copy of the original, with no loss in PQ.

Dubbing in real time requires 2 steps. First, the digital signal of the original has to be converted to an analog signal (D/A conversion). Second, the analog signal has to be re-encoded back to a digital signal (A/D conversion). This results in a loss of information, and therefore a loss in PQ.

Actually I don't think (and certainly hope not!) that the signal makes it all the way back to analog during a re-encoding, except of course to be sent out the analog outputs during the process. But a second MPEG encoding does take place which is the source of the lost/reduced picture quality.

One would hope that during these re-encodings, the original MPEG-encoded video gets uncompressed (still digital) then re-encoded from this uncompressed (but still digital) video information. Going all the way back to analog, then back to digital, for this isn't necessary. Am I sure all DVD Recorders avoid this D-A-D conversion during such re-encodings? No. In fact I once hypothesized that DV-MPEG conversions in these units might have gone frm DV to analog before MEPG encoding, but was corrected by somone who knew better (dr1394). My assumption was based on a supposition that the A-to-D conversion and the MPEG encoding were inseparably linked, apparently not true. So as long as the MPEG decoding can also output digital as opposed to only outputting analog, a re-encoding could be done entirely in the digital domain. Like I say though, I can't be sure they actually do it that way. Just that they could.

Your argument makes sense. I stand (maybe) corrected.

Does anyone have a definitive answer as to whether dubbing in real time requires an D/A and then A/D conversion, or is just a D/D conversion.

I suspect some of what is being written about the benefits of high speed dubbing is opinionated. And that is okay everyone is entitled to their opinion. I have been dubbing all my home recordings in real time (FR) and they are just as sharp, clear, etc., as the source material on the drive. I own 3 Hard-Drive Panasonic recorders and they are recording constantly. I stopped comparing the DVD-R dub to the hard drive source along time ago when I saw no difference.

I found this thread on a search after for some reason Safari on my Mac G4 crashed 3 times in a row while trying to start a new thread. Please forgive me changing the subject but it "does" fall in the realm of an E80 dubbing problem.

I do event videography and edit with Final Cut Pro. For the past 3 years approximately I've been using the E80 to put finished edits on the HDD with the flex record function at less than 2 hours whenever possible. I never go over 2 hrs on any record sequence to the hard drive.

Just recently, after recording short titles on each of two sections of a 2HR 50 Minute job transferred to the HDD at 1HR 30MN and 1HR 20MN respectively, and adding chapter markers on both sequences, I went to start running off some sets of copies for the clients in the high speed dub mode to Sony DVD-R discs which I have been happily using for over a year & a half now.

But after choosing high speed mode, instead of being able to drop into the program box to select which title I want to record, the box keeps coming up empty. Although in normal playlist mode from the HDD I have 12 to 14 jobs clearly visible in there and can play from any of them.

Anyone have any idea what is going on or how to fix this, preferably with keeping my current playlist intact on the HDD?

I had to loan the recorder to my clients as I was going out of town for 10 days and knew they were very eager to see their wedding which I'd promised I would have their copies for them prior to leaving and don't yet have the unit back.

Many thanks if anyone can help here.

Ron

A too-obvious question would be if high-speed was still set for the HDD or did it get turned off somehow before the transfer? Something to check...or not?

Yes, thanks, high speed still selected

...But after choosing high speed mode, instead of being able to drop into the program box to select which title I want to record, the box keeps coming up empty. Although in normal playlist mode from the HDD I have 12 to 14 jobs clearly visible in there and can play from any of them.

Anyone have any idea what is going on or how to fix this, preferably with keeping my current playlist intact on the HDD? Ron

I had a very similar thing happen to me with my E85, except it worked in the opposite way. I had nothing when I asked for the title view screen, but the titles DID show up in the copy selection screen. I copied all titles to -RAM disks and reformatted the hard drive. Reformatting it every few months has resulted in the problem never happening again. I would suspect that the file system on your hard drive has been corrupted in some way and a reformat is in order.

Wow how funny. I had given up hope of anyone replying on this problem of mine, with no titles available in the selection window of high speed dub to DVD process. And I just now came on here looking for what Panasonic now has available with a hard drive, assuming it would now have a larger HDD, fire wire which the E80 doesn't have and still the flexible record function which I really love quality wise for the between 1hr and 2hr lengths. And also assuming that buying whatever that model might be now with the way prices have dropped in past couple of years, probably about the same as getting my unit repaired if that was required.

Your suggestion of reformatting the drive I might have to try. Is there a link or quick instructions from someone on how to do that please? Only problem as I mentioned in my first post is that I would like if possible to save what is on the HDD already. You mention transferring first all to DVD-RAMs but that's my problem...I can't select anything to DUB.

Select the HDD and go into the main menu by pressing the Functions button on the remote, navigate to and select Disc Setting and then select Format.

Thank you. It may come to that. Or I may opt to keep this one and still buy a new Panny with HDD and a larger drive and fire wire and still the "flex record" function. I'm having a heck of a time with Google finding if that exists other than the E55, E85 etc which seem to no longer be available.

What model should I be looking for? In the "best" DVD Recorder? current thread it mentions the Philips 3575 and states there are only 2 models with HDD still available. The 3575 doesn't have "chase" feature while recording someone said somewhere and I assume no "flex record" like my Panny.

Is the "2nd" of the two available models a Panny hopefully?

What the heck happened in the past couple of years since I was last in this forum that they became so few? Seemed like such a logical setup.

What model should I be looking for? In the "best" DVD Recorder? current thread it mentions the Philips 3575 and states there are only 2 models with HDD still available. The 3575 doesn't have "chase" feature while recording someone said somewhere and I assume no "flex record" like my Panny.
The Philips 3575 does have Chase Play, and it has an "AUTO" rec mode for dubbing from HDD to DVD. It also limits it std rec. modes to the most usable ones: 1, 2, 2.5, 3, 4, 6 hr, all providing good to great quality, depending on the source. (My Pio 640 has a 13.3-hr mode...whooppee... looks like c**p!)

What the heck happened in the past couple of years since I was last in this forum that they became so few? Seemed like such a logical setup.

Many threads devoted to this very question but the short story is that apparently DVD recorders with HDD have not been very profitable for these companies in the US due to a combination of reasons but the leading contender is the ubiquitous cable co. DVR which is rented out at a price not much greater than a plain old cable box. The final stake in the heart though was the US law mandating that after March 2007 all consumer electronics devices sold with tuners include an ATSC tuner. This added expense pretty much doomed the already marginal HDD/DVD recorder niche market. See the first FAQ sticky thread addressing "digital" transition for additional info.

You of course unplugged your unit from the power supply to get rid of any static electricity buildup. I don't want to contradict a real expert on DVD recorders, which Vferrari is, but I would hesitate to reformat my E-80 hard drive. Maybe your playlists are using up the maximum number of separate recordings you can store on the hard drive, which my unit let me know was 250 (or was it 249) when I reached that maximum. If you want to gamble, you could remove one playlist and see what happens. I don't use playlists myself, so this suggestion is based on my experience with the 250 limit.

IMHO, the Philips 3575 is good only as a PVR, not for archiving stuff on DVDRs. It has too many flaws for its defects to be just accidental. Philips rebadged a crummy Chinese HDD DVD recorder and has made some marginal improvements to cure it of some defects after its US release about 4 months ago.

Right now, the United States is the only major consumer country in the world where there are no well made HDD DVD recorders for sale. That also is no accident.

gerrytwo, I did unplug it because of the neccessity of loaning it to my clients so they could see their wedding in the time frame I promised them before I went on vacation. Still don't have it back yet and am needing to figure out my next move once I contact them again. They do need their copies on individual DVDs. I'm just thinking whatever happens no way probably I should spend much money fixing it as opposed to buying a new one if the reformatting for some reason doesn't work or maybe hopefully what you have suggested has already done the trick and I don't know it yet.

So to everyone, what is the one single other brand and model with an HDD available now other than the Philips unit? (which I will take a closer look at now as well if it has chase feature). (Nothing worse than transferring a time line on an edit in real time for 2 hours and then taking a look at the copy on the drive and findind out that something....anything maybe like sudden power variation in the house from washing machine or whatever has knocked the crap out of the lip sync, even with low priced UPS in the chain) Are any of the later Panny HDD models with Firewire still available anywhere, or is that one other current unit besides the Philips a Panny by any chance?

I own a E80H and a EH55 and have never noticed any tiling/replay problems with my DVD-Rs (TDK mostly) using HS dubbing. I suspect the problem with the OP is his uses of the LP speed, which in the E80H is not of very high quality, and it does not surprise me that it produces tiling when replaying on other DVD players. I always use SP and settle for 2 hour recordings. The quality is excellent and I have never had a problem. LP in the EH55 is much better and I have used it once to convert several instructional VHS tapes to DVD and results were excellent. But with the E80H I recommend always using SP (or XP) to record and make copies. Also, I suggest you always use a good power conditioner/surge protector with DVD recorders. Who knows what problems AC noise might cause with these machines.